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Just confirming the post by Robert last week, all L service has been provided with R-143s since 7/22/03. The last train of R-42s operated in L service onn Monday, July 21. No idea if it may have had an R-40M pair stuck within somewhere.
There were 4 R-40Ms visible at DO Yard today, and 4 more on one J train that I observed.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
200 for a 168-car max requirement is quite sufficient. What this SHOULD mean is final elimination of the R-40Ms from ENY and maybe some R-42s, too.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Once the additional 12 cars enter service, will they run on the L, on the (weekday) M, or somewhere else?
I look forward to the transfer of at least a few R-42's to CIY.
Robert
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Jimmy
Incognito
A drill rig on a truck doing what appeared to be test borings at the Flushing Creek end of TA property, behind Yard B.
Could this be the preliminary stage of construction for the new Corona Barn?
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
The link is as follows
http://www.trainweb.com/cgi-bin/top/tw_do.cgi?news/2003/poll2003a.html
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Right off the bat, I have an omission from part one that needs to be mentioned. In guiding you all through the tour of the route, I forgot to mention the fact the South Shore passes over the EJ&E with yet another short, steep grade. This accomplished east of East Chicago near the west end of the Gary city limits. If driving east along the parallel Indiana Toll Road, this crossing would be a little west of the Cline Avenue interchange. I recalled this as I was on the way to work the morning after I sent part one out. Hey, at least I even remembered it on my own.
I did receive a note from one reader who tells me the Shore and GTW did not interchange at South Bend. According to the South Shore system map I have there is no physical connection between the two roads. However, I recall talking to a couple of the Trainmasters while I worked there and they told of receiving cars from the GTW at South Bend. I can only figure that perhaps Conrail was forwarding these cars across town. I would like to hear from anybody with factual information about this interchange.
I’ve also been told that the original route in East Chicago, before the relocation and elevation of the line in 1956, was from Calumet Avenue to the east end of Parrish. The east end of Parrish is just west of Cline Avenue, Indiana Route 912. The connection to the B&OCT at East Chicago was part of the original route as was some of the track going to Harbison-Walker that was just an industrial lead I my days there. The East Chicago street running was on Chicago Avenue. After being reminded of this fact, I recalled my uncle telling me of catching it on Chicago Avenue.
It is good that so many readers are just full of information. I appreciate all of you that have written in with various tidbits and morsels of information to fill in the blanks and jog my memory. Having left the South Shore over seventeen years ago, it is easy to forget some of the details.
In 1984 the Venango River Corporation purchased the South Shore from Chessie System. The employees of the South Shore frequently referred to them as “the new owners.” Prior to coming forth and making their offer to purchase the property, there had been serious talk of NICTD (Northern Indiana Commuter Transit District and pronounced “Nicta”) purchasing the South Shore. There was a proposal to use freight revenues to subsidize shortfalls in government funding for the passenger operation. There was concern about a government agency owning a profitable freight railroad and channeling funds towards the passenger operation. Being that the Venango River boys came along, this conundrum was averted.
Thanks to the efforts of NICTD, Venango River acquired a South Shore with a physical plant that had been significantly upgraded. In the seven years since the creation of NICTD, numerous improvements included a new substation at Hegewisch, all the other substations upgraded with new switching equipment to sustain even distribution of power, smooth riding track equipped with welded rail between Michigan City and Kensington with thick ballast and good ties, newer motive power, a new passenger car fleet, and a virtually rebuilt Shops Yard. There was a new car washer built at Shops Yard as well to keep the coach fleet cleaners.
When Venango River took possession of the railroad, they had a vision of growth in the freight business. A plan was undertaken to market the railroad as a competitive route. They had every intention of encouraging development on along the route which, in turn, would grow the business for the railroad. We will look at some of their ventures and goals here in part two of this lesson.
The Venango River boys decided to showcase the railroad and facilities would be to bring current shippers, potential shippers, car owners and media onto the property giving them a grand tour of the road. In the spring of 1985 an excursion train was operated for these very people. This run originated at Shops Yard in Michigan City, first operating east to South Bend with a brief layover there. Then it was west to Ice House crossovers. Upon arrival at Ice House, the train was run around using the crossovers both here and at Griffin (a little east of the Calumet Expressway, I-94). The train was then operated east back to Michigan City.
Each person boarding the train was given a media kit. This kit contained information about the current operations of the railroad. There was a small map of the route, leaflets with information about available services. There was also information about locating and developing along the South Shore and a deck of what resembled playing cards. This deck of cards was called “A Little Train Trivia.” Each one of these cards had a bit of information about the history and present information about the railroad.
There were munchees and refreshments served. The drinks were of both the soft and hard variety. These goodies were served up by members of the 20th Century Railroad Club which provided their services for the train.
This train was pulled by two of the South Shore’s GP38-2’s, the 2000 and 2001, freshly repainted into a new version of the classic orange and maroon scheme. I’ll get into the paint scheme a little later. The train consist was comprised of a fleet of private owner passenger cars brought in for the trip. I recall there being at least one domeliner car, perhaps there may have been more. I also recall that one of the cars was painted into a New York Central lightning strip scheme. I believe this car was once MoPac #20, their air brake car that I attended annual air brake training classes aboard. I worked this excursion train and will talk more about this in part three.
Venango River did achieve some success in capturing new business to the South Shore. They began to market their freight shops nationwide as a contract repair facility. An on-car wheel truing machine which allowed for wheels to be turned without having to remove them was a major selling point. This would allow for that car to be returned to service in a timelier manner. A new drop table in the car shop allowed for wheels and trucks to be removed from cars without having to jack the cars up. This saved time again, returning cars to revenue service faster. Some cars (aside from bad orders discovered on line) were brought in for contract service and repairs.
A contract was secured with the AM General to haul military vehicles constructed at their South Bend, IN plant. Most of these vehicles moved on 89 foot flatcars or on bi-level auto racks that were leased from the Soo Line. Venango’s aggressive marketing staff was able to gather up some smaller contracts with a few on line shippers. Venango also had their eyes and thoughts fixed upon getting into Midwest Steel in Portage. This business required a connection to be built with Conrail; a connection to the Chicago Line and then access to the plant via a lead from the Chicago Line on the north side of their tracks. Eventually, this goal was accomplished, but long after I had departed the place.
During the interim, the South Shore did manage to land a contract to haul the scrap steel produced by Midwest. A siding near the plant just south of the main track and high speed siding was used for loading bales of scrap into gondolas. A crane with a magnet was used to pluck the bales off trucks and drop them into the gons spotted on the siding for loading. It was common to get eight or ten gons loaded with scrap per day from Wilson. These cars were hauled to Burnham Yard and weighed. If not overloaded, they were then hauled up to the interchange with the ICG. Any cars that were overloaded were sent back to Wilson to have some of the bales removed to lighten the load. ICG handled the loads to Granite City, IL and Midwest Steel’s parent company, National Steel. A group of gondolas of Pittsburgh & Lake Erie and Delaware & Hudson heritage were acquired for the service.
A contract to handle bottle trains loaded with molten iron was secured. Bethlehem Steel was rebuilding a blast furnace. As a result of this project, they needed to purchase the iron they needed for production into steel iron from US Steel in Gary. A joint operation with the EJ&E was inaugurated and lasted for the duration of the furnace rebuilding project. The iron was delivered to the South Shore at Miller by an EJ&E crew. The J had obtained trackage rights over the B&O between Curtis Yard in Gary and Miller to affect this move. EJ&E switch engines were used in this move. This business was a bit of a coup for the Venango River boys as they were bidding head to head against Conrail.
Venango also looked at growth in other methods aside from on line industries and services. They began to focus on acquiring other lines or obtaining trackage rights. An unsolicited bid was placed with Amtrak to purchase their line between Porter, IN and Kalamazoo, MI in 1985. This venture did not materialize though as Amtrak was not looking to sell. Conrail was handling all of the on line freight business under a perpetual trackage rights agreement. Eventually Venango did acquire the former GM&O line between Joliet and St Louis and the route to Kansas City. This transaction included trackage rights between Joliet and Chicago on the former GM&O as well as trackage rights from Chicago (Bridgeport) and Kensington and the connection to the South Shore from Illinois Central Gulf. This transaction was a major contribution to the end of Venango River Corp. However, I will not cover that episode as it occurred after my departure,
The Venango River boys did make a serious attempt to improve their connections to the outside world through direct access to the Belt Railway of Chicago. They were negotiating with the parent companies of the Chicago & Western Indiana to either obtain trackage rights on or purchase outright the CWI Main Line between State Line and Pullman Junction. The goal was to reach either the BRC’s Commercial Avenue Yard in South Chicago or up to 80th Street to allow direct access to Clearing Yard in Bedford Park. The remaining portion of the trip would have been over the BRC main line between 80th Street and Clearing Yard.
While MoPac, Seaboard System, Grand Trunk Western and N&W were in favor of this proposal, Conrail was dead set against it. The structure of the CWI required unanimous agreement of all five of its owners, not just a majority in such issues. My guess was that Conrail was afraid of the South Shore getting a new outlet for business and becoming more competitive with them. This could have directly affected Conrail’s dominance of the business with Bethlehem Steel. If the South Shore now had a better outlet on the west end, they could possibly have competed head to head with Conrail for the lucrative business out of Bethlehem going to western connections in Chicago. If the South Shore had improved connections to roads like Soo Line, Chicago & Northwestern and Burlington Northern via the BRC, they could very well compete on a much more leveled playing field with Conrail for this business. With Conrail putting the kibosh on this venture, it spelled the death of the CWI main line between the east end of N&W’s Calumet Yard and the State Line. No traffic was moving across this portion of the line anymore since the MoPac Hammond Local was discontinued. As a result of Conrail’s no vote, this segment of the CWI wound up being abandoned.
Another line under consideration for purchase was the N&W’s Michigan City Branch. The coal trains from the N&W and a local out of Argos, IN were the only traffic on this line. There were several industries that received rail service including a couple of them in Michigan City. In 1985, N&W parent Norfolk Southern was not ready to peddle off the line. Eventually the South Shore did obtain trackage rights over the Michigan City Branch to Stillwell, IN and a connection with the Grand Trunk Western. This agreement led to the operation of steel trains with the GTW. Eventually the owners that succeeded Venango River were able to obtain the line from NS.
There was a strong desire by Venango to erase the C&O era image. The old rigid drawbar former C&O Magor built cabooses were replaced with a group of former Santa Fe models. These cabooses, equipped with cushioned draw bars were much smoother riding. They had full electrical service with operating interior lights. Step lights, porch lights and red marker lights were also part of the package. They were also radio equipped. One of them even managed to get painted into the traditional South Shore colors. The rest wore their Santa Fe red scheme with the circle and cross emblem painted over in solid yellow paint with a South Shore logo applied over it.
The idea was proposed to replace the blue and yellow paint scheme on the locomotives. An employee vote would be taken on a new paint scheme. Three different paint schemes, all created by employee Mitch Markovitz (who has created many of the colorful South Shore posters) were presented to the employees. Every employee was given the opportunity to choose between a new variation of the current yellow and blue, an orange and gray scheme and the classic orange and maroon scheme of the Insull era. By a margin of something like 90%, the orange and maroon scheme was chosen. Shortly thereafter a couple of locomotives, the 2000 and 2001 (used on the excursion train) were repainted into the “new” scheme. Eventually, the entire locomotive fleet received this treatment, but it took years to accomplish. I believe the 2007 was the last one to get the look and that was well into the 90’s.
A new car reporting system was developed. A new track numbering system and industry spotting code system was also developed. This system was patterned after the Santa Fe’s “CLIC” system and was called “CLUE.” Unfortunately, I cannot recall what the letters of the CLUE acronym stood for. A new payroll system was also developed in latter 1985. Up until the new payroll system was implemented Chessie System continued to perform the timekeeping and payroll functions for Venango River. In fact Chessie System time slips were still being used during this period. All South Shore employees hired during Chessie ownership and after Venango River took over used identification numbers assigned to them by Chessie’s payroll system. I still recall my number and even use it as a password for my CN account today.
Venango River also amassed a respectable fleet of rolling stock. Aside from the former Santa Fe cabooses, gondolas (mill, scrap and trough style), additional covered coil cars and flat cars were added to the fleet. This gave the South Shore a larger piece of revenue as cars costs were reduced. An employee recognition plan was also begun. The names of employees were also applied to side of each car. Each car bore the name of an employee. I didn’t last there long enough to see my name applied to a car though. The cabooses bore the names of the five partners of Venango.
A group of F45’s was acquired from Burlington Northern in 1985. They were stored for quite awhile, first at Burnham Yard and then at Shops Yard. Only one or two of them ever saw any service while I was there and they didn’t work out. Having been stored so long in a humid climate led to the rusting up of electrical contacts among other problems. I would bet years of service on BN and its predecessors also took its toll on them as well. Railroads do not get rid of motive power because it is in good mechanical shape. And when power becomes short on time, maintenance tends to become less than essential to them. Eventually this power was disposed of.
The two NIPSCO (Northern Indiana Public Service Company) plants, one at Baillytown and the other in Michigan City, received unit coal trains almost daily. A fleet of NIPSCO owned NORX high side gons and coal hoppers were used for these trains operated in 100 plus car sets. There was also a sixty-six car train set made up of MoPac hoppers. Many of the coal trains using the NORX sets and of course the sixty-six car set came from mines located on the MoPac in Central and Southern Illinois. I operated some of these very trains in my days there. We also got coal trains from the Illinois Central Gulf using either NORX or ICG hoppers. On occasion, a train of Southern Indiana coal would appear from the Milwaukee Road. There were a few trains of western coal from CNW, but I never once worked an assignment that handled any of the loaded trains. I did work a job that pulled an empty though and it was comprised of CNW and UP hoppers. These trains were handled via the B&OCT at East Chicago.
The Baillytown Generating Station was located just east of Bethlehem Steel. It was accessed using the north siding at Bailly. The Michigan City Generating Station located on the northwest side of Michigan City along Lake Michigan and just east of neighboring Mount Baldy. A siding that broke from the main track at Michigan City to reach the Michigan City plant was known as Power. Conrail could, and occasionally did deliver coal here as well. NIPSCO operated their own locomotives to handle these trains once they were delivered by the railroads. Car Inspectors from the South Shore inspected these cars at both locations when they were released back to the railroad.
The trains to Baillytown had to be delivered in three tracks. Space constraints at the plant required the train having to be cut and pulled into the yard in three pieces. This was due to the lack of a long lead at the north end of the receiving yard to use for head room to allow the train to be doubled into the yard from this end. There was a five or six track yard for receiving trains and also a stub track for storing a few cars. Outbound trains were doubled up at the south end and pulled out. The outbound trains could either use the siding to the west end or use the crossovers from the siding to the main track at the road crossing used by traffic into and out of Bethlehem and the power plant. These switches had to be lined back manually as they were not equipped with spring mechanisms. .
The Michigan City plant had two long tracks and an entire train could be delivered on one track. Outbound trains were run around and the caboose left just east of a switch at the east end of the yard, The Conductor and Engineer would run the engines back to the west end, couple on and pump the air. When ready, the Brakeman on the caboose would have them shove the train back and couple onto the caboose. When given their train orders, they could pull right out onto the main track using the spring switch and heading west. When delivering a train into the plant, the train would be stopped to clear the switch at Power and it was lined back. The caboose would be cut off and the train pulled into the plant.
When the crew cut away from the train, they would come back to the west end through the other clear track and back up to the caboose. When they received their authority, the could shove back out onto the main track and head back to Shops Yard.
The coal trains from the MoPac were delivered via the Indiana Harbor Belt. MoPac crews would deliver these trains to the IHB’s Calumet City Yard and a Harbor crew would then forward the train to South Shore’s Burnham Yard which was essentially right around the corner from Calumet City Yard. In my days at the IHB I handled these trains between Calumet City and Burnham, so I really had the opportunity to participate in almost every facet of this business. The only thing I missed out on was working the jobs that loaded these trains. Although from what I’m told by those who did load them, I didn’t miss much.
A job out of Michigan City would double up (triple up actually as the cars were placed on three tracks) and pull the train delivered by the Harbor. The Harbor also delivered the trains from the Milwaukee Road as well. For a time, the empties returning to the MoPac were returned via the B&OCT at East Chicago. The B&OCT would then pull these trains and deliver them back to the MoPac at Yard Center. Eventually this method was changed and the empties were brought back to Burnham and the IHB came over and pulled them back over to Calumet City Yard.
In the late 70’s MoPac delivered the loaded trains to the B&OCT for delivery to the South Shore. In the early 80’s these trains were being delivered to the BRC at their 87th Street Yard in Chicago and the Belt then forwarded them to the Shore at Burnham. I recall observing a Belt crew delivering a train to Burnham Yard the day I took my promotion exam on the CWI. Little did I know that someday I would be working these trains out of this yard to points east on the South Shore.
Coal trains from the ICG were delivered at Kensington. The ICG would leave them between Kensington and Fordham on what were then their tracks five or six (now known as three and four thoroughfare). A South Shore crew would come up, run around the train and add their caboose, run back around it, tie on and take it east.
There were coal trains from Chessie System’s Baltimore & Ohio interchanged to us at Miller on the east side of Gary and from Norfolk & Western at Michigan City. These trains were destined for Bethlehem Steel’s Burns Harbor Works. The station on the South Shore near Burns Harbor was called Baillytown, named for the pioneer Bailly family that settled and developed that area. These trains would be pulled into the coal receiving yard. A connection through a location called “Jackpot” was used. Jackpot was at the east end of Conrail’s Burns Harbor Yard. Even though this was all yard and industry track, permission was needed from the Conrail Trainmaster that controlled Burns Harbor Yard. There were numerous Conrail jobs working the area and the permission was needed to assure there wouldn’t be any mishaps.
B&O trains would either be delivered into the interchange yard located at Miller or a meet was set up with both railroads. The B&O would pull the train right onto the South Shore main just west of the connection. The South Shore crew would couple onto the east end and take it to Baillytown where it would be run around and then pulled into the mill. On some occasions the empties would be returned in the same method using a meet with the B&O. And other times the empties would be placed into the interchange yard.
The Brakeman of the South Shore job would act as the pilot for the B&O crew. A loaded train would be pulled out onto the South Shore main heading west to clear the crossover switch from the west end of the yard. The B&O crew would cut off and the South Shore crew would couple on to the east end of the train, and if this meet was taking place during daylight hours a red flag would be stuck onto the rear car. When it was dark, a red flashing light (a holdover that was used with the old Magor cabooses) was placed on the rear car and the train headed east to Baillytown and Bethlehem. The train would be run around at Baillytown and then pulled into the mill.
Empties, sometimes accompanied with loads of steel out of the mill for Chessie would be pulled west of the connection to the yard and also Lake Street which crossed at grade at Miller. A B&O crew would enter the South Shore main behind this train and couple on after the South Shore crew cut away. They would pull the train back through the yard and double it to their caboose which was either left on the other track in the yard or out on the B&O main track. The loads of steel were always placed on the east end of the train out of Bailly. This would have them on the head end of the train when the B&O crew took the train east on their line. This made for much better train handling for them. The only really problem spot with the loads on the rear for the South Shore was right at Miller. When the loads came over the hill, they would run in on the head end, but the speed was general lower as the train was usually going fairly slow at this point.
This interchange yard was an interesting set up. The B&O crossed under the Shore at an angle at Miller. The east end of the yard actually passed under the South Shore main here as well with the Shore using a short, steep grade to pass above the B&O here. The interchange yard made a bend to parallel the South Shore main track on the north side. The west end of it was across from the Miller station which was located on the south side of the main track. A lead to the yard also extended west a bit of Lake Street. There were two tracks in this yard and often times it was stuffed full of cars. Other freight such as steel and lime was also interchanged here as well.
On some occasions all of the interchange was not handled with a meet, the cars were just set out in the yard. As the train pulled by the connection, the Conductor would drop off the engine to make the cut from the rest of the train. The Brakeman would drop off west of the bridge over the yard and B&O main and head down the hill to the east end of the yard. He would protect the shove as the yard would usually be filled up with all the empty coal hoppers and other cars when all was said and done. I had a situation here one evening that I will recount in part three.
Coal trains from the N&W would have their motive power consists, made up of all N&W units or sometimes with Southern units (and some locomotives painted into the new Norfolk Southern scheme) as well as N&W cabooses run through onto the Shore. I don’t recall seeing any Southern cabooses though. This power would then be used in any and all freight service until the empties were ready to be delivered back to the N&W and would return at that point in time. In some cases, the empties would be returned in small blocks to the N&W gradually filling the N&W interchange yard located just west of South Shore’s Shops Yard in Michigan City. This yard was located on N&W’s branch that extended from Michigan City to Argos, IN (near Plymouth). The power was usually a combination SD35’s, SD40’s, SD45’s, U30C’s and C30-7’s. On occasion, a Union Pacific locomotive would show up in the N&W consist.
Being these were the days before the 97 channel radios, a device was fashioned to allow a South Shore handset radio to be connected to the locomotive radio antenna and it usually worked quite well.
To compensate them for horsepower hours, the South Shore 2008 was sent to the N&W. This engine was a free runner on the N&W for months at a time before coming home, usually for 92 day inspections. It would then hang around the Shore for a few days and then go back to the N&W.
Depending on the time the N&W loads arrived, a South Shore crew might meet them there at the connection. The train would be pulled west on the N&W past the connection switch which, on their railroad, was just west of the crossing, then shoved back through the connection and onto the South Shore main. A Shore crew could then take right over and head west. Other times the train would be shoved around and onto the main track and left for a South Shore crew when they came on duty or into town. On occasion the train would be left in the interchange yard and a South Shore crew would bring it around later.
After a Bethlehem crew dumped these cars and rolled them into the empty yard, South Shore Car Inspectors would come out and work the cars. A freight crew would be called to pull them when they were ready. Light weighers, cars that were due to be weighed while empty and then restenciled with the new weights would be switched out and sent to Burnham Yard. The determination for weighing them was based upon either the build date of the car or time span between last light weighing. Now there were some Chessie System cars that had a star next to the light weight. These cars were not to be weighed irregardless of the last weighing date. I never did find out what the exemption was on these cars. There was a scale at Burnham Yard and a job working the yard would weigh the cars. The scale tickets on them were brought back and turned in with the usually paperwork by the Conductor. Depending on the amount of cars weighed either the Car Department would come out and then stencil the new light weight and load limit weights on these cars or they would be hauled back to Shops Yard for this treatment. Once this process was completed these cars would then be returned to their owners. Bad ordered cars would also be switched out and sent to the car shops in Michigan City for the required repairs. All the remaining cars would be returned to their respective roads.
The Car Inspectors used a pick up track laden with necessary supplies like spare brake shoes. An oxy-acetylene torch kit which could be used for burning or repairs was also part of the equipment. An air compressor was towed behind their truck and used to charge the brake pipes on the cars. These cars were worked with air and tested. These roaming Car Inspectors worked many of the cars received at various interchange locations.
There were other industries on line including Georgia Pacific, Bulkmatic, Carborundum, Browns, Erb Lumber, Bendix and Fruit Growers Express. There were several others as well. Georgia Pacific had a facility in Gary, along side of Conrail’s Fort Wayne Line and the parallel N&W Gary District. Bulkmatic had a trans loading facility in Gary along US Route 12 near the South Shore/EJ&E interchange. Carborundum was located between South Bend and Michigan City and Bendix was in South Bend. Erb Lumber was on the east side of Michigan City east of the yard. Fruit Growers Express had a facility located at the east end of Burnham Yard. This facility made repairs to FGE’s large national fleet of refrigerated, insulated and specialty box cars.
Conrail had the lion’s share of business from Bethlehem including a significant share of in plant switching. However the Shore did have a very respectable amount of business from the mill. A healthy amount of steel coils and plates were shipped from Bethlehem via the South Shore. This steel was then interchanged primarily to Chessie System and ICG. A few loads would go to the N&W while some went to the IHB as well. A yard used by the Shore although owned by Bethlehem known as the 430 Yard was the source of loads out and empties and some loads of scrap into the mill. Conrail jobs that switched the mill would leave the outbound cars for the South Shore in the 430 Yard. South Shore crews left inbound cars for the mill here for Conrail jobs to pick up. We had a big derailment here with a coal train one Sunday afternoon and I’ll talk about that in part three.
The IHB and South Shore also interchanged other business at Burnham Yard. Cars to and from customers on the South Shore in addition to all the coal were handled here. Paper, steel, scrap and flour were just some of the commodities interchanged with the IHB. There was other business as well.
South Shore affected interchange with Illinois Central Gulf in Chicago at two different locations. Coal trains loaded and empty were interchanged at Kensington and other traffic near a station called Ice House on the portion of the railroad known as the Kensington & Eastern. I believe there was another name for this location but I cannot recall its name. Interchange with N&W was affected at both Michigan City and Chicago (again, near Ice House), B&OCT at East Chicago, B&O at Miller, C&O at Michigan City, Indiana Harbor Belt at Burnham, Conrail at Burns Harbor and South Bend and the EJ&E at Goff Jct. in Gary. All of this interchange was business that originated or terminated on the Shore, though none of this was bridge traffic. All of these roads could and did interchange with each other and did not require the services of the Shore.
As I had mentioned in part one, there was an interchange at one time at Clark Road with the Pennsylvania that was a victim to mergers and removed. There was also an interchange with the Wabash near the Georgia-Pacific plant but it too, was eliminated. The N&W downgraded the Wabash and severed it as a through route in 1978 and the interchange tracks and connection were removed.
At one time the South Shore marketed themselves as a bridge route. The line was touted as an alternative and bypass to the congestion of the Chicago terminal. Mergers and consolidation within the industry dried up virtually all of the bridge traffic. Venango was making efforts to recapture some of this business. Their efforts started with several grain trains from the brand new Chicago Central & Pacific. Beginning in early 1986 about four or five of these trains were received from the CCP at Kensington and hauled east across the system, then interchanged to Conrail at South Bend.
Being these were the days long before there was electronic data interchange (EDI) and automatic equipment identification (AEI), business received from other railroads would need to be physically checked and the waybills accompanying these cars worked up. A roving clerk from Shops Yard would make a trip to the various interchange points. They would check the deliveries from the interchanging roads and work up the waybills. From this information the clerk would then write up switch lists and leave them in the phone box at that location. The freight jobs would come out, pick up the lists and perform any and all switching on these cars as prescribed by these lists. There was no computer system used, these lists were all written by hand.
Many of the Conductors did not give a copy of the list to their Brakemen. In the chores of their switching they would just tell you how many cars to let go or what switches to line as you proceeded with the work. While we did have some pretty good Conductors, there were a few that were less than optimum performers. If you were keeping track of what was going on, you could sometimes see that you were double or triple handling some cars during your switching. I surmised they figured if the Brakeman didn’t see the list, the Brakeman couldn’t see how much extra work the Conductor’s were creating for the entire crew.
A freight job heading west from Shops Yard would stop and pick up cars at Bailly (either going directly into the 430 Yard at Bethlehem or cars pulled by another job and left there in the siding for pick up), Miller and East Chicago. The pick up at Bailly often had the cars for the B&O already blocked so that they could be set out at Miller while heading west. The rest of the cars would be taken to Burnham where they were classified. Cars for the ICG would usually be taken up and delivered. Some Conductors would switch out everything and have the eastbound train ready to roll before going to the ICG. On the way back, they would just stop, pick up the train and then proceed. Others would come back and switch some more and then head east. Some of these cars would be set out en route for the Gary Switcher while others were set out at Bailly to go into Bethlehem. Some of the cars went back to Shops Yard bound for the RIP Track or industries in and east of Michigan City. A few cars might be held in the yard at Burnham or even set onto the State Line Siding on the north side of the main tracks.
The Gary Switcher was a local that used to work Monday through Friday going on duty in the morning at Shops Yard about 0800. It normally worked the Bulkmatic plant in Gary and Georgia Pacific. Oftentimes they would switch out Harbison-Walker as well. Depending upon the situation, they might leave westbound cars pulled from industries at Parrish Siding and a westbound would pick them up and take them to Burnham.
There was another switch run that worked east from Michigan City. If I recall correctly, this job used to go to work about 0930 or so. They worked the C&O interchange and Carborundum as required. They would then turn back west and go to Bailly. They might stop and work industries as required around Michigan City including the old Monon. At Bailly, this job would work the 430 Yard pulling outbound cars. Any eastbound cars would either be brought back to Michigan City of left at Bailly for another freight job to pick up.
There were several freight pool jobs as well. These jobs could do about anything from switching industries to handling coal trains. Oftentimes these jobs would handle pulling the empties from Bethlehem and taking those cars required to be weighed to Burnham and handled the weighing chores. They could also head out to South Bend and work the industries there as required. They might work industries anywhere on the system including on the former Monon line. There were a couple of industries in Chicago just east of Kensington the pool jobs would often work. There was virtually nothing these jobs didn’t do, except switch the yard at Shops. While there were two tracks on the south side of the main track at Shops Yard which could be used for switching, none of the freight jobs actually worked the yard itself where cars were spotted in the RIP track. The Terminal Carmen performed these duties, including switching out the inbound train when it arrived and preparing the outbound train for a freight crew.
And all of the work performed by the freight crews was while having to dodge passenger trains. While much of the freight was moved in the evening and overnight hours, some of it moved under daylight sun.
These freight pools were just like those of the big railroads. They were on call and worked in a rotary style, first in and first out. It was sort of like an extra board, only with a complete crew that always worked together. There were three of these turns and in the last few months I worked there, a fourth turn was added as business levels demanded it. Each one of these turns had two rest days. And just like the big roads, the days off tended to get shortened. It was not unusual to be called out very late in the evening on your Friday.
I was on a regular freight turn for a while with Tuesday and Wednesday off. We would almost always get called out just before midnight on Monday (which was our Friday) and frequently work ten to twelve hours. So then you didn’t get home until 1100 or later on your rest day. Now you get to spend the first part of it sleeping. Then on Thursday we would get called out early, like shortly after midnight. So you needed to be rested in the evening on Wednesday because you just knew that the phone would be ringing around 2215 or so. As a result two rest days turned out to be closer to about one day and one quarter. And oftentimes we would get called out twice in a twenty-two and half hour period, so we commonly worked six or seven starts in our five days.
During my days at the Shore, it was all one operation. The commuter passenger service was operated by the South Shore with NICTD overseeing and subsidizing the operation. The Engineer and Conductor/Brakeman extra boards protected both freight and passenger assignments. You could bid back and forth between the two classes of service. There was no bind to freight only or passenger only so we could and did work both freight and passenger. In my days on the extra board there it seemed I actually worked freight more than passenger. And that was for a reason I will also get into with in part three. Today, NICTD owns the line and fully operates the passenger service. They perform all the maintenance of the track, overhead catenary and signals. Anacostia & Pacific Corp owns the freight operations and has perpetual operating rights over the road. This came about as the result of the Venango River Corporation’s financial failure.
NICTD acquired the railroad from the bankruptcy estate and Anacostia & Pacific purchased the freight operations. As part of this acquisition, they negotiated the perpetual trackage rights arrangement to assure they would always be allowed to operate freight service.
At the time of these transactions, the transportation employees as well as some other crafts were required to make the decision as to who they wished to work for, South Shore or NICTD. They cannot just flow back and forth; however, those hired prior to the split up of the line have flow back rights. Should passenger service be reduced or eliminated which would call for a downward adjustment of the work force, those prior right employees affected and displaced by such a reduction have the right to make a move back into freight service.
The five Venango River boys were highly visible and very accessible. They made it a point to rub elbows with the help. They sought input from us and listened closely to any and all suggestions and ideas. And they made it a point to know our names and something about all of us. There weren’t any body guards and fear of the help. They were hands on owners.
With the background of the South Shore complete, we will close out today’s lesson. I’ll get into some of my situations and experiences in part three.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2003 by JD Santucci
As to the R-110B, it's not in service. If it ever goes back into service, then where it runs will be up for grabs.
David
David
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
I have heard conductors (in the pre R142 days) announce connections to services that aren't running on that particular weekend. They don't bother to read the notices (assuming they can understand them in the first place).
I'll bet that one information agent didn't even know that LaG and JFK are 2 different airports.
And now the MTA wants to shut the information line down during overnight hours.
They should have a new slogan:
"MTA - How do you get there? Don't ask us."
This weekend, the E line runs on the F line to 2nd Avenue (not West 4th st as the incorrect service advisory mentions) during most of the day. So the caller was not properly warned about the diversion this weekend and would have to walk one crosstown block to access Penn Station.
--Mark
BTW, did you see the late night service notice for the < Q >? That's right I did not make a typo. It's at the benches inside our home station.
But, do you have PROFF?
Peace,
ANDEE
Now we will see the PROFF, believe me you will be LYAO big time.
Yes, Saskatoon, its in Canada, you know, that big country just to the north of us.
No it is nowhere near Montreal.
Yes Winnipeg is closer, but that is still a 500 mile walk, can you find anything closer?
Well we did end up driving up there with two people.
Elias
Peace,
ANDEE
Incorrect. Amtrak is listed as National Railroad Passenger Corportaion as their entity. Commuter railroads are managed by different agencies unrelated to Amtrak. So Amtrak OR Conrail owns the ROW and the little commuter railroad agencies lease the ROW from Amtrak.
I hope that wasn't the case because a conductor can get in big trouble if he/she "drives" a train. An *engineer* is supposed to "drive" the train!
I have a friend who is a conductor on the BNSF and he is qulafied to run the locomotive (ie when the engineer goes to the head) and many conductors hold both federal licenses, although my friend does not.
All remote control trains (ie in the yards) are operated by the conductors, (from the ground) there are no engineers anywhere in sight.
Tests are now underway to remove engineers and conductors from long distance freight trains. They will be operated via the Global Positioning network. There will be a "train technician" on board to keep the engines running, but he will not drive the train.
Elias
I'm not 100% clear on the issue, but I think he holds a certificate, but not the federal license. Is that possible?
Elias
no cerificate and you can only move the wifes car or a remote control engine.
remote control engines are based on speeds less than 5 mph within yards.
He runs his trains exactly by the book.
He's counting the months to retirement, and he has no intention of screwing anything up.
Elias
Peace,
ANDEE
Does Amtrak own the Penn Tunnels and the line to harold, is this LIRR, or does it shift with the change in operating group, LIRR vs Amtrak? I'm assuming from Harold to Shell is owned by Amtrak.
MARC Penn Line runs on Amtrak owned lines on the NEC, while the Camden and Brunswick lines run on CSX lines.
Amtrak owns the rest, from Shell to Washington.
False. The NEC is still officially from BOS to WAS via the former NH Shore Line.
Michael
Washington, DC
Michael
Washington, DC
Jimmy
Michael
Michael
Peace,
ANDEE
I forget if it was before or after their shutdown threat.
Amtrak owns approximately 80 percent of the NEC, which is currently defined as the electrifed corridor between Boston MA and Washington DC. AFAIK, segments not under Amtrak ownership are from CP Shell (where Metro-North meets Hell Gate line) to New Haven, and state of MA from RI border into South Station.
Of course, not all commuter lines (except NJ Transit) use the “Northeast Corridor” nomenclature for the rail route…MARC calls it the Penn Line; SEPTA merely refers to it as the R2 segment from Newark DE to PHL and the R7 from PHL to Trenton NJ; Metro-North’s name, of course, is the New Haven Line; CDOT refers to its Amtrak-operated service between New Haven and Old Saybrook/New London as Shore Line East; and MBTA’s commuter service from South Station to Providence goes by the name of Attleborough Line.
-Robert King
Larry, RedbirdR33
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
The schedule shows that Main Line trains won't stop in Secaucus.
#3 West End Jeff
http://members.lycos.co.uk/raggajohn/qanda.html
However, they won't because it cause people to not only bring cameras onto the subway but use them to take pictures of the subway. Horrors!
-Robert King
http://www.rgriffin.ukshells.co.uk/rly/1959final.html
However, they won't because it cause people to not only bring cameras onto the subway but use them to take pictures of the subway. Horrors!
-Robert King
Special railfan excursions are great, but not everyone can make it to them. Regular service is better. Every A Division T/O knows how to operate an R-33, and most passengers probably wouldn't bat an eyelash.
If it is a problem, discharge at Chambers.
???. Details!!!
Then the TA may not bother with this.
Still, Iencourage you to submit your idea in writing. If they go for it, great. If not, at least you tried.
It will be a sad day for those of us who appreciated the Redbirds. OTOH life goes on and nothing lasts forever.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
MagLev technology has again and again been debunked as an amazing waste of time, energy and money. It is nothing more than a scientific make-work trophy project with little practical value outside being an amusement ride.
It's like advocating monorails as the next big thing in urban transport.
In constructing this new system FORGET ABOUT ANY EXISTING INFRASTRUCTURE!
My plan, basically follows I-80 from NYC to CHI with rather few intermedate stops. It is a all new structure. I would probably build the terminal under the southern end of Central Park. Going through its own tunnels it comes out elevated across the NJ Swamps and finds its way to the I-80 ROW where it runs in a straight line (sort-of) to Chicago.
It is about 700 miles, and at 250 mph, that would be about four hours including intermediate stops. That is Close enough to compete with air lines, since they have a high amount of waiting and ground transport time.
Elias
How and why did you choose that number? The top high-speed trains of the world only go up to 186mph right now. I'm not sure why they are sticking to a 300km/h speed limit. In order to do 250mph you'd have to overcome whatever obstacles are hindering the TGV and the Japanese Bullet Trains. So your design couldn't just be an "off the shelf" TGV system, for example, instead you'd have to do a lot of innovating.
Maglev overcomes the first one by levitating the train a very short distance above the ground using magnets. The only energy necessary is to raise the train a very small amount and to compensate for air resistance.
If the trains run in vacuum sealed tunnels, there will be no air resistance and trains will run until a force acts upon them. Therefore acceleration will be able to continue at a comfortable amount until the mid-point, there will be no maximum speed.
I agree that maglev is a waste of money. So is NASA. While we're at it, so was all that stuff Orville and Wilbur Wright did down in North Carolina. They should have just given up and figured out the best way to make trains and boats faster.
The top high-speed trains of the world only go up to 186mph right now
196 mph, actually. Renfe’s Madrid-Barcelona AVE line in Spain is supposed to have trains operating at 220 mph in regular service when it opens. Also, California, with their HSR plans, are looking for a 200-mph cruising speed.
Worthy of reminding is the highest test speed of the TGV, at some 327 mph.
Perhaps they could do better running in a glass tube or something, but I suspect not since then it would need to push a slug of air rather than just moving some of it aside.
Elias
There would be little or no damage at all. It will all be done with the Tunnel Borring Machine well below existing infrastructure.
Two inbound platforms, two outbound platforms, service facilities across the river in Queens.
Elias
I shouldn't think so. Departures would have to be 30 minutes apart to keep proper spacing on the line. One train every 60 minutes off of a track is not too taxing. Of course I am not thinking of multiple routings from Manhattan as in the heydays of Penn Station.
Elias
I was interested in the NJT response to the derailment. They propose putting more conductors on trains that have heavy ridership and equipping the crew with radios and bull horns.
In our subway, if the third rail goes dead, is the pa system functional and reliable? If not, perhaps the MTA should consider bull horns also.
Here's the MTA article:
MTA response
and the NJT article:
NJT response
Ok, but that would be a complete lie.
Ok, they are both easy, and comfortable and fast when they are actually moving and not stopped because of a delay. Although, they are no where near as fast as they could be, and they need to be faster to compete with the airlines. I would not call the Regional trains economical. In summary, out of your PR line, I really only agree with the "comfortable" part.
1) Railroads must build, own, maintain (or pay rent for these) the right of way for their entire route. Airlines do not.
2) The subsidies that opponents of Amtrak (usually right wingers) decry are direct and obvious. The hugh subsides airlines get are not. The gov't pays the cost of maitaining the air traffic control system and airports are owned by gov't agencies and leased to the airlines usually at favorable rates. The same applies to highways (in reference to truck competition to frieght RR or bus or private car competition to Amtrak). The cost build and maintain highways are paid by the government, but user fees (registration costs, gas taxes are often not even fully dedicated to these public facilites).
3) Amtrak, as are all passenger RR in the world, depend on gov't subsidies; as such they are subject to political gamesmanship. Important Senators and/or congressmembers can often demand Amtrak run a train through their district that loses tremedous amounts of money. The cross county trains are good examples, Amtrak is at times forced to run trains that provide little usefulness because if they don't an important committee chairperson might be offended if that train didn't stop in their district.
For these reasons and I would assume others, a PR effort, while maybe helpful, will not "save" Amtrak.
1. Have the federal government pick up the cost of maintaining and improving the ROW, as it does for major highways, if AMTRAK owns it.
2. Require that states exempt freight rail lines from property taxes, or at least provide a partial exemption, if those lines are used for passenger trains not operated by the railroad. The reason is that if a certain number of passenger trains are allowed to use a ROW, it is more like a public road than a private one.
Use the tax exemption to replace the fees paid to private railroads. If passenger rail use of the line exceeds the level where freight railroads believe it to be fair, or if the government wants major investment, purchase the line by eminent domain.
3. Require states and localities to pay to maintain and rebuild passenger stations. They are public buildings with, ideally, more uses than just rail passengers.
4. Require AMTRAK or whoever else to break even on the cost of buying, maintaining and operating THE TRAINS, not the ROW and stations.
As part of that, get rid of the ridiculous severance rule - when Amtrak discontinues a route, its employees get two years of severance pay.
As part of that, get rid of the ridiculous severance rule - when Amtrak discontinues a route, its employees get two years of severance pay. With a rule like that, it's far cheaper to run a line once a week with no passengers than to kill it completely.
As part of that, get rid of the ridiculous severance rule: When Amtrak discontinues a route, its employees get two years of severance pay. With a rule like that, it's far cheaper to run a line once a week with no passengers than to kill it completely.
Have the federal government pick up the cost of maintaining and improving the ROW, as it does for major highways, if AMTRAK owns it
The federal government already does that through the much-villified “Amtrak subsidies,” but nowhere near the degree necessary. Also, you are constraining the spending to 80 percent of the Northeast Corridor and 100 miles of the Chicago-Detroit corridor—since the federal government is involved with the entire interstate highway system, they ought to exercise the same involvement with non-Amtrak-owned roads where Amtrak operates…either that, or build more corridors for Amtrak only, the most economical way of doing that being to designate abandoned main lines as Amtrak-only and putting the investment into said corridors, or both.
Require that states exempt freight rail lines from property taxes, or at least provide a partial exemption, if those lines are used for passenger trains not operated by the railroad. The reason is that if a certain number of passenger trains are allowed to use a ROW, it is more like a public road than a private one
Many states have repealed their taxation of railroad ROW, but still many have not, one of the most recent and glaring examples being New York state, over which CSX waged a quite infamous battle with NY. Indeed, the taxation married with the ICC regulations of 1950 related to additional signaling was a major factor in the slowdown of the post-war high-speed-rail experiments and speeds of varnish prior to 1950.
The tax laws directly affected the ROW; the laws of NY, for one example, increasing the tax rate by number of tracks on ROW (which is what drops four-track mains to two tracks or one track) and weight of rail, which itself contributes to lower speeds due to fear of damage.
Use the tax exemption to replace the fees paid to private railroads
Only if the tax breaks thereof are sufficient to cover the costs incurred to the railroads due to varnish operation by Amtrak or whatever other entity. Beyond that, the federal and state goverments should offer additional compensation and MOW funding.
Require states and localities to pay to maintain and rebuild passenger stations. They are public buildings with, ideally, more uses than just rail passengers
That would be quite difficult depending on the funds of states and municipalities, and may be unconstitutional if no federal assistance is forthcoming to help with such.
Require AMTRAK or whoever else to break even on the cost of buying, maintaining and operating THE TRAINS, not the ROW and stations
No need to force such edicts on Amtrak or the operators of other passenger trains if you have relieved them of the massive burden of providing for infrastructure cost. Just don’t start chipping away at their capital and maintenance budgets for rolling stock as a consequence.
http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Conrail/Breakup/cr_bos.gif
http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Conrail/Breakup/cr_nyc.gif
I invite you to post at whatever you were going by.
for ownership see :
http://www.chinet.com/~plaws/rail/whozisit.html
it gives actual milage for each agency.
Main Line New Haven to Boston
Dorchester Branch
Middleboro Main Line
so those are the official STB names
Main Line Mill River to Springfirld
Main Line NEw York to CP 216
New York Terminal District
Empire Connection
Main Line New York to Philadelphia
Lehigh Line Connection
36th Street Connection
Main Line Philadelphia to Washington
Washington Terminal
Main Line Philadelphia to Harrisburg
For those of you interested in streetcar and subway models, as well as those interested in visiting the Shore Line Trolley Museum ...
The New York City Model Transit Association, in cooperation with the
Shore Line (Branford) Trolley Museum, is proud to announce that the
Fall meet will be held at the museum - October 17th, 18th and 19th,
2003. The meet will be held in conjunction with Branford's annual
Railfan Day. The theme of the meet will be, Models Of Preserved Cars
in Museums.
The admission will be the price of a regular ticket for museum entry.
Carbarns will be emptied out for our use.
There will be dealers, operating model layout modules, door prizes,
model contests, clinics and a white elephant table for individuals to
dispose of some of your unwanted treasures.
Thanks,
Steven Olsen
NYC Model Transit Association
http://home.att.net/~sctransit/NYCMTA1.htm
One question - I know Joel Lovitch (MTS imports) was planning a show in King of Prussia around that time, but the Holiday Inn he usually has the show in is undergoing renovations, and his plans are thusfar inconclusive. Is this being done in place of his? (I guess I just don't want to see two meets with the same theme at the same time).
--Mark
All Aboard! Car 629 now boarding at Sprague Station for Short Beach, making stops at Farm River Road, Picnic Grove, Quarry Trestle/Nature Trail and elsewhere as requested...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Jimmy
: ) Elais
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just to clear up any possible confusion, the Fall Trolley Meet in King of Prussia was cancelled. There will be a meet at the Electric City trolley museum at Steamtown (in Scranton, PA) on the 12th of October, 2003 and the Fall Model Trolley & Rapid Transit Meet at the Shore Line Museum, on October 18 & 19, 2003. Many dealers will attend both meets.
Flyers for both meets are being mailed out this week. If you were on the mailing list for the Fall Trolley meets at King of Prussia or the Model Trolley & Transit meets in Kendall Park, NJ you will receive a flyer for the Trolley Meet at Branford.
Thanks,
Steve Olsen
NYC Model Transit Association
http://home.att.net/~sctransit/NYCMTA1.htm
Here is an extract for those who do not wish to link;
"The London Underground uses the four rail system for two main reasons. Firstly, it was originally required by the government to limit the voltage drop along the line to 7 volts. This was intended to reduce problems caused by stray currents causing electrolysis affecting utility pipes and cables. The fourth rail was chosen, partly as a cheaper option and partly for signalling reasons. As direct current track circuits were to be used to control signals, an insulated return system for the traction current was an effective way of separating the two systems."
I recall reading that the early telegraph and telephone companies objected to a third rail and ground return circuit being used, as stray traction currents might disrupt their relatively sensitive circuits. The later widespread adoption of third rail systems around London would indicate that such fears were unfounded.
Andrew.
Electrical surge caused wheel to overheat
Friday, August 01, 2003
BY JOE MALINCONICO
Star-Ledger Staff
NJ Transit officials yesterday revised their explanation for the July 14
derailment in Secaucus, saying the train's wheel apparently overheated and
fell off because of an electrical surge and not because it was struck by
debris on the tracks.
The agency became aware of the more far-reaching problem on the Arrow III
rail cars, the type that was involved in the derailment, after a wheel on
another train overheated last Friday night. That prompted emergency
inspections of all 230 Arrow III cars last weekend.
Eventually, NJ Transit removed 91 cars from service for repairs and
discovered problems with equipment designed to prevent power surges from
overheating the wheels. Mechanics later found evidence that a similar
problem probably occurred on the derailed train, Executive Director George
Warrington said.
As a result, the agency is putting all 230 of its Arrow III cars through a
second round of emergency inspections this weekend and has changed the way
it routinely checks and cleans the machinery designed to prevent the power
surges.
"While we believe that there is a high degree of probability that this is
the root cause of the bearing's failure on the derailed train, we will await
results from our continuing investigation and metallurgy studies before
drawing a final conclusion," Warrington said during NJ Transit's monthly
board meeting yesterday.
In the aftermath of the derailment, in which none of the 1,200 passengers
was seriously injured, Warrington also said the agency would increase the
size of some of its train crews. Instead of assigning at least one conductor
for every four passenger cars, NJ Transit would operate with at least one
conductor for every three cars. No timetable was given.
The derailed train had only two crew members because one was late for work
that day, officials said. Under the new policy, it would have had four
conductors.
Officials also promised various improvements in the way the agency handles
emergencies and communicates with passengers during breakdowns. Angry
passengers have flooded NJ Transit with complaints about the flow of
information during the repeated service disruptions in July.
"I think everyone will welcome that," said Leonard Resto, president of the
New Jersey Association of Railroad Passengers. "People understand that
things happen, but the communications really fell apart."
Warrington said NJ Transit would:
a.. Send the nearest train to the scene of an incident to rescue stranded
passengers. This will take effect immediately, he said.
a.. Give all train crew members radios within 90 days. Previously, only one
employee on each train had a radio.
a.. Equip all ticket offices with pagers within 30 days to provide workers
with the latest information about service problems.
a.. Create emergency response teams within 90 days to go to incident scenes
and main terminals during a crisis.
a.. Review the system's public address systems within 45 days to determine
if they need repair or replacement.
a.. Supply all trains and stations with bullhorns in case public address
systems fail. No timetable was offered.
The failings of the agency's emergency response policies became apparent
during the derailment and Tuesday night's service shutdown along the
Northeast Corridor, which occurred when an Amtrak train ripped down an
overhead power line.
"The corporation is not here to make excuses, our job here is to find
solutions," said state Transportation Commissioner Jack Lettiere, who is
also NJ Transit's chairman. "We're not good if we say we're good. We're good
as a corporation if our customers say we're good."
That may take some time.
"They're clueless what to do when there's a problem," said Barry Seiden of
Highland Park, who was among the commuters stuck in Tuesday night's mess. "Y
ou would think after 9/11, they would have emergency plans in place. But
it's clear they don't have a plan."
"I have a bitter taste from Tuesday night," said Joe McDonald of South
Brunswick, whose trip home took about four hours. "I'm glad to hear they
want to make improvements, but I'm from Missouri on this one. Show me some
results."
Joe Malinconico covers transportation. He can be reached at
jmalinconico@starledger.com or (973) 392-4230.
It's good to see NJT will be introducing some policy revisions. It's justifiable to criticize them for not having done that already, but the important thing is that they're doing it now.
Yeah, what's wrong with simply hollering whatever stuff needs to be announced? Who needs bullhorns? Most of these conductors have a healthy pair of lungs. Use them!
The biggest joke is how they all of a sudden want to issue radios to ALL crew members. The fact is, a few months ago, they were requesting that all trainmen who were not working Conductor jobs at that time hand in their radios because there weren't enough to go around to just CONDUCTORS!!
Oh Yeah, I go through two batteries on my radio each year at about $90 each.
Elias
Jimmy
Be glad there are pictures, movies, video to keep the memories alive.
A private company however can issue dividends.
As Pigs said, "regular" for profit corporations may do one of two things with profits 1) Pay out cash in the form of dividends to the shareholders (the owners of a corporation) or 2) Re-invest the money in the business. Profits that are not paid out in dividents may be carried as cash for an indeterminate time frame. They are referred to as "Retained Earnings". And re-investing in the business can come in many forms. The obvious is buying new equipment or making major improvements to existing equipment. However it can also be in the form of retiring debt.
Non-profit and government organizations handle things a bit differently. I believe the "profit" (that is money in excess of expenses) is held in various funds that ultimately are used to fund future operations. Non profit and governments don't draw as strict a line between expenses and capital spending, so the "profit" is harder to determine. I'm not overly familar with accounting for non profits.
David
It's an excess of revenues over expenses in the current year, as far as I am aware. Where it sits within the five-year budgeting process, I'm not sure -- it seems to have been intended from the start that the "surplus" be generated this year so it can be applied to future years.
David
Got to cover those rising payments pensioners somehow.
David
Besides, I'm not suggesting anything that would cost passengers more than they've been paying. I'm just suggesting that the increases be made on a steady, predictable basis instead of in sudden, large spurts. That would make budgeting easier for customers (since they wouldn't be hit with a fare increase they weren't expecting when they began the year) and the MTA's agencies.
David
Know where to send montly pass for refund and other details?
Please let me know, and spread the word.
Thanks.
...once you go to NJ Transit's homepage.
Amtrak should develop/purchase high speed diesels, or look back at the Turbotrain, which was the fastest Amtrak train to be tested (even faster than Acela by 2 mph 170 vs. 168). These trains would be used to prevent the huge cost of electrification. Long-distance trains (Chicago-LA, etc.) would not get these engines. Turbotrains have high speed, but low horsepower. Trains that traverse the Rockies would need high speed for flat areas, but large amounts of horspower for climbs. Maybe a larger engine and AC motors should be installed in Genesis locomotives. These improvements should allow for 125 mph to be the lowest speed. This plan is a set of equipment changes. Some infrastructure would need to be upgraded so these speeds can be safely attained. I think the cost of this whole upgrade would be between 1-2 billion.
It does not matter how fast the engine or the train set can go...
What matters is that it is on old ROW limited to 89 mph, and running on rails shared by freight trains running at 55 mph. And the freight trains are not going to get out of your way. The host RR might make efforts to expidite AMTK trains, but if AMTK falls behind schedule, all bets are off, and the RR will push its trains on in ahead of AMTK.
Bottom line.... It is not how fast your train can go, but how fast the RR is running. Same thing on NYCT: You know the 44s can do 70 mph, but you have never sen it.
Elias
As a matter of fact, YES!
They want the most reliable delivery for the least dollars.
Look at some of the commodities that travel by rail:
Coal: There are endless strings of coal cars moving east, and of empty hoppers moving west. As long as they do not run out of coal, they don't give a rats posterior appendage how fast the coal moves. It is true that with slower trains you need more carsets, but that price is miniscule when compared with the cost of double tracking a western mainline, which is what it would take to make faster trains.
Grain: The harvest comes but once a year, what need is there for speed. Farmers out here bitch about high freight prices (because the price is paid at Miniapolis, putting the shipping costs in their pockets. Its not fair, but that is life.) They also bitch about a shortage of grain cars and of slow delivery of empty cars to the regional elevators. But handling short cuts of cars is more expensive than running unit trains. So there is a big discount for unit trains, but farmers (and their lawmakers) bitch that the little man gets neither a good price nor car availability.
Auto Parts: The Auto manufactures are HAPPY to have slow trains, just so long as they get the parts on time. (Just in time delivery). They look at the railroad as one long wharehouse. One that they don't have to pay for.
Bulk Lumber: Why did you want this to arrive sooner? Did you want to pay twice as much for your house?
As a matter of fact, sooner or later you have to pay for EVERYTHING that travels on a train. I take it you LIKE paying high prices!
Elias
Yean, Right... Can't you just picture 115 car coal trains careeing through town at 150 mph.
What a waste. The coal will get there when it is needed anyway, so nobody is going to pay the extra needed to get it there faster.
Indeed, the coal trains run on our line, and we seldom if ever see a mixed freight, although there are some grain trains an a few local peddler freights.
The faster freights run on the Great Northern routing through Minot, where also prowls the Empire Builder. But no freight carrier is going to bopther with faster speeds when their bottlenecks are the classification yards anyway.
Elias
Jimmy
Elias
Amtrak should develop/purchase high speed diesels
You are assuming that the trains are the problem—they are not. The ICC, back in 1950, ruled that no tracks with CTC only could host passenger (or freight) train service at speeds of 80 mph or higher; if railroads wanted their varnish to go faster, they had to install additional signaling at their own expense. The FRA continues to uphold that ruling. Just about all of Amtrak’s current fleet of diesel locomotives is geared for 110 mph operation. Also, to be permitted to operate at speeds above 125 mph, assuming properly maintained and signaled trackage, locomotives have to pass the FRA’s stringent Tier II crashworthiness (and emissions) specifications—no current Amtrak diesels adhere to Tier I specs (which are lower than Tier II) and are currently being “grandfathered.”
Also, no matter the top speed of the trainset, FRA limits Tier II operation on shared trackage with freights to 150 mph.
or look back at the Turbotrain
The UAC Turbotrain would never pass Tier II specs today; not to mention, being a gas-turbine-powered trainset, it would not pass emissions either. Bombardier had developed a gas-turbine Acela Express-equivalent power car with the cooperation of the FRA—one of the major problems experienced with the UAC Turbotrain, that of high fuel consumption while idling (the RTLs also have this problem), was not solved.
Amtrak missed its window with the UAC trainsets; what ought to have been done with them is have them run GCT-Chicago high speed with an upgraded Chicago Line, but I do not believe that Congress was funding HSR improvements at the time.
Maybe a larger engine and AC motors should be installed in Genesis locomotives
Larger means heavier with diesel locomotives, and since you are not worried about engine torque to pull the train, you don’t want heavier, especially since that also means higher fuel consumption and weight restrictions on certain bridges and other parts of railroad lines.
Besides, have you heard about GE’s Evolution 12-cylinder prime-mover? They are available with up to 6,000 horsepower. The base model features some 4,400 horsepower, 200 hp more than the 16-cylinder in the current Genesis models. Too little too late to help out with dieselized HSR, seems to me, but one never knows…
Also, with climbing up grades, you need tractive effort, not flat-out horsepower. High horsepower is no good if you are spinning your drivers while trying to go up a grade.
Lots of money, above and beyond $2 billion per annum even, is necessary to make Amtrak work properly. JMHO.
As you have heard, the rising extent of obesity has become the nation's most talked about health issue. Some city planning types have focused in on our automobile-oriented lifestyle as a culprit -- less walking, and thus fewer calories burned in the normal course of life (the mechanization of housework and the shift to office work must be as more more important, but lets leave that aside). People have less time for scheduled exercise to make up the difference.
Since I've had kids, and thus very little time, the number one source of exercise I do get is going out of my way, on foot, to use a subway station other than the one nearest my home. Walking through Prospect Park, or over the Brooklyn or Manhattan Bridge, is a big part of this. It adds 15 to 30 mintues to the trip to work, but I end up walking 1.0 to 1.5 miles.
As our Senator Chucky Schumer has demonstrated, the best way to get positive PR is to make a proposal, however minor, on an issue that is in the next (preferably on a Sunday night for Monday's papers).
So here is my suggestion. Using posters on subway cars and in stations, NYCT could promote additional walking and biking in the course of using the subway. Call it the subway health club.
Subway stations on each side of the East River Bridges could be made MetroCard Transfers, with directional signs added to the pedestrian entrances to those bridges. The same could, perhaps, be done at Prospect Park and other parks, with people encouraged to walk across the park to board the train (good way to shift some ridership from the Lex to the B/C.
And bike lockups could be added at terminal stations with substantial mezzanines available. Station agents, freed from token selling, could instead provide access to the locked areas -- only to those who have bikes to put in or receipts for bikes put in earlier. Booths could be placed adjacent to the bike parking area, with the gate released from within and a HEET to get out after the bike is deposited. If people take a bike rather than ride the bus to the subway the TA loses nothing -- it's a free transfer in any event.
In short, it may be a good idea to jump on a bandwagon. And it may be useful someday for people to be used to getting off the train on one end of the Many B and Willie B, walking over, and getting on a train at the other end.
Guaranteed to take off the pounds.
Sell the subway, period. Provide the bike lock-ups, make bike carrying easier (post clearly which car they go in), post more than just the area maps. Really PUSH the recreational and walking opportunities at each station. Make the booth people into salesmen for the tourists: "the west side bikeway starts at the Intrepid -- try it!"
One of the reasons I love NYC is that I've lost 20 pounds and didn't even notice. You guys are ALL skinnier than midwesterners.
Take the F to 63rd and Lex.
Senior subway historians, please comment. Thank you.
It's good to see NJT will be introducing some policy revisions. It's justifiable to criticize them for not having done that already, but the important thing is that they're doing it now.
Yeah, what's wrong with simply hollering whatever stuff needs to be announced? Who needs bullhorns? Most of these conductors have a healthy pair of lungs. Use them!
The biggest joke is how they all of a sudden want to issue radios to ALL crew members. The fact is, a few months ago, they were requesting that all trainmen who were not working Conductor jobs at that time hand in their radios because there weren't enough to go around to just CONDUCTORS!!
Oh Yeah, I go through two batteries on my radio each year at about $90 each.
Elias
1. Was the IRT hit by deferred maintenance and/or grafitti this badly when compared to the BMT/IMD?
2. How did one identify the correct train when the entire rollsign was covered in a thick coat of paint?
3. How did the grafitti artists ever have the time to create such a big and detailed piece of work? Did they just do it while the trains were inside stations and police would just look the other way, or was it other things?
One didn't. One either assumed it was their train or just asked the conductors or T/O.
3. How did the grafitti artists ever have the time to create such a big and detailed piece of work? Did they just do it while the trains were inside stations and police would just look the other way, or was it other things?
They would hit the trains in the yard.
A big problem was that trains were commonly stored on unused express tracks during off hours. Unlike the yards, which were insecure enough, security on these tracks was virtually nonexistent.
A major blow against griffiti was adding secure capacity to yards.
Jimmy
It was a wild and wooly era.
Tim
This is still done, specifically on the northbound Queens Line express track (75th Avenue to just beyond Parsons Boulevard), the southbound 4th Avenue express track (36th to 59th Street), the middle track on the Jamaica Avenue el from 111-117 Street (2 trains), and the southbound 8th Avenue Line in Brooklyn (Clinton Avenue to Shepherd Avenue), among other places.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
During and after the February snowstorm, there was hardly any express service, except perhaps above ground.
Simple. Trains in those days used to have marker lights. If you knew what markeers your train used, you didn't need to see anything else.
I was waiting for a (QB) train one afternoon, saw they yellow and white markers in the correct place and got on. Never noticed that it was signed up as something else.
Boy did we ever have a trainfull of surprised people when we headed off on the (QB) Routing.
I guess they didn't understand the Announcements that the conductor was making. Even he corerectly identifed the train as a (QB).
: ) Elias
Marker lights in the 70's and 80's????
David
http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/markerlights.html
Hey Kev, I thought for sure you'd pull up a D train pic with a green-green setting.:)
Those are not "marker-lights"
The MARKER LIGHTS do tell the routings, and that is exactly what they were there for, so the towers could tell who was coming at them.
The Marker Lights predate roll signs and route letters.
Elias
When I saw the bulkhead of a 32 a couple of years ago after M-K *phucked* 'em, I damn near cried ... no markers at all anymore. The rooftop bulkheads of the 32's were as nice as Arnines. And BRIGHTER. :(
They have gone out of business/bought out, right?
M-K has been sucked into the "Washington Group" not to be confused with Halliburton, Enron, or Bechtel even though they're the same folks now. M-K ... rebuilding *IRAQ* for YOUR appeasement. Those guys REALLY screwed up the 32's. :(
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
The 32's were CLASSY steeds ... I turned them down when an Arnine job swap was available with people who didn't WANT to take that Arnine relay "next out" or with people who the TMO said, "you've screwed up the railroad enough, LET McAleavey take it" ... but 32's weren't so shabby - it was the 42's and the 44's I despised. TOO cushy for the 42's, and the 44's with that stupid joystick (PRE-GOH) ... no WAY.
I still liked my Arnines - they braked like a REAL train - SMEE's were something I never got the hang of out of fear that if I got comfy with SMEE's, I could never SAFELY run an AMUE again ... and when you develop a "feel" for the AMUE's, best to STAY with those. :)
I liken it to going from a stickshift to an automatic. Neither is a problem for me; I can go back and forth. Never did left-footed braking with an automatic although my father did for years.
Too bad the two of you never worked together as a crew on the D line.
Stillwell was like that - "keep your head down and always wear your sports cup" ...
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
A contributory cause, quite possibly. In the case of the R27's and 30's, however, the immediate cause of their premature scrapping was the decision to go with an entirely air-conditioned fleet. Conversion of these two car types was simply not cost-effective for technical reasons.
As to the cost of the GOH program, I don't know what that $1 billion figure is supposed to represent. According to EVOLUTION OF NEW YORK CITY SUBWAYS by Gene Sansone, here are the average overhaul costs:
R-26: $187,876 x 110 cars = $20,666,630
R-28: $172,000 x 100 cars = $17,200,000
R-29: $306,000 x 236 cars = $72,216,000
R-30/30A: $317,000 x 162 cars = $51,354,000
R-32: $576,000 x 10 cars = $5,760,000 (GE)
R-32: $476,000 x 584 cars = $277,984,000 (MK)
R-33: $381,000 x 494 cars = $188,214,000
R-33S: $195,600 x 39 cars = $7,628,400
R-36: $164,000 x 424 cars = $69,536,000 ($163,000 for NAB & MK; $164,000 for NYCT)
R-38: $400,000 x 196 cars = $78,400,000
R-40: $399,000 x 396 cars = $158,004,000
R-42: $428,000 x 286 cars = $122,408,000 (MK)
R-42: $688,000 x 110 cars = $75,680,000 (NYCT)
R-44: $548,000 x 140 cars = $76,720,000 (MK)
R-44: $612,000 x 140 cars = $85,680,000 (NYCT)
R-46: $464,000 x 752 cars = $348,928,000
TOTAL: $1,546,296,400
David
Sorry, that's what I meant. Since the R30's departure they really weren't able to give train lines on the B division enough additional service. Also I notice that the NYCT R44's cost more to overhaul than the MK units, why is that?
David, do you [or anyone who knows] know the cost of the 110 R10's through the GOH?
Jimmy
Of course, the J, M and LL were consistently the worst lines. We got the oldest cars. As a child I thought the city was deliberatley looking to kill the J train, since it was running old crap on it and the outer end was being chopped down. And the track fires! About one a month in my neighborhood in the early 1980's.
Graffiti started on the IRT west side and worked its way to the rest of the system.
I believe that graffiti first appeared in 1972 or 1973. How long did it take for it to spread systemwide?
Same thing happens with vandalism and hanging out. I used to live near a park entrance which was unpatroled. First kids came in by foot at night, quietly, and disappeared into the woods. If they had cars, they parked them a distance away. Then they came in talking. Then shouting to each other. Then the litter increased. Then bottles. Then bottles loudly smashed on the sidewalk. The cars started to be parked right in front, then they started to drive them into the park. A fence was put up and rammed down. This whole thing escalated over the course of two years before the local authorities cracked down.
Why these things always seem to escalate until they become intolerable, maybe some shrink could explain.
> >2. How did one identify the correct train when the entire rollsign was covered in a thick coat of paint? < <
From my experience (rode the subway everyday) the front roll signs were usually legible. Sometimes you would get a train with no front roll signs, then I would usually look around to see if I could spot a side roll sign intact. If there were no signs, you would just get on, and hope you were on the right train (or you could ask a crew member).
Jimmy
[Note to the slow: I'm being sarcastic.]
I remember in the late 70's and early 80's that many times even the windows were grafittied over. So it wasn't just a problem of knowing what train you were on, it was also a problem once you were on the train to know what station you were at, as many times you could not see out the windows at all. And some of the doors did not even have windows!
Larry, RedbirdR33
I think the R62/68 fleet is "Deferred Maintenance"
-the roll signs are unappealing and get torn apart
-those plastic encasements that house the lights and are used for
ads seem to chip away on their own
-Sratchitti=Graffitti is EVERYWHERE-how can MTA claim 100% graffitti-free
Windows
Wall panels scratched-beaten in
seats
_I think this fleet badly in need of interior overhaul. The only efforts I have seen are turning the Window frames on doors around
(filthy side in) replace glass on doors and rollsigns only to be scratched again. The new floors are the only nice touch
Oh yeah the IRT really got it but the A, J, L & M in particular on the IND/BMT was hit hard as well.
2. How did one identify the correct train when the entire rollsign was covered in a thick coat of paint?
Sometimes you didn't have ANY rollsigns and then the PA systems weren't all there so you basically had to hope thta you were correct.
3. How did the grafitti artists ever have the time to create such a big and detailed piece of work? Did they just do it while the trains were inside stations and police would just look the other way, or was it other things?
The hit train yards and lay up tracks; when it was more common to lay up trains on non revenue tracks.
This news was announced today by the MTA. This report appears in an Indian newspaper.
Capital Construction Company
So, will the rest of the capital program migrate to the massive Department of Subways? (CPM was also building a bunch of new bus depots, but unless the proposed mergers go through we're about done).
My observation is the MTA has a dual culture fighting for its soul. You have a cynical civil service culture, with goldbricking in the rank and file and CYA and politics in management. But you also have a progressive culture, with pride in workmanship in the rank and file and committment to transit in management. He is part of the more progressive culture.
A lot of people who follow this are concerned they'll be moved out from under his leadership. So we'll have to see what happens. On the other hand, having the capital program be a whole different company from those who operate the subways doesn't sound like a good way to get help when you need G.O.s to get things built, so you could argue that ongoing maintenance should be more intergrated with the operating departments.
We'll see.
Didn't the Department of Education do something similar, transferring school construction responsibilities to a separate entity? And wasn't it largely unsuccessful?
It was unsucessful because they did not decomission the internal board of education construction department. Both entities fought over every detail of school construction projects causing confusion with contrators as to who was in charge driving up costs. Bloomberg eliminated the internal construction planning department last year.
The problem was not the separate entitiy.
In the case of the MTA their is only one entitiy for construction. What this really means is that the mta will be better able to coordinate projects and negotiate better deals with contractors between all of it's operating agencies. Duplicate upper managemen wil be elliminated
Also, the Franklin Shuttle and Lenox Invert projects. He's a great guy and a brilliant engineer.
He certainly advertises his accomplishments by delaying many people. Consider what George H. Pegram, one of his predecessors did for the IRT when they third tracked the els.
"Imagine, if you can the taking up of an entire railroad bit by bit and replacing it with another line of twice the capacity, without the stoppage of a single train...
In the first place, it has been found necessary to take out all the old pillars along Park Row and put in new ones strong enough to bear the double load. This has been sucessfully done without the delaying of a single train. Every one of the fifty-two pillars that used to hold up the tracks has been supplanted with a steel column fifty-five feet high..."
From the New York World Sunday Magazine, May 1915.
I took some morning commute photos and then after work hung out at 5 Av for a while. Besides the ones linked below, I have more redbird and silverbird photos from today that I will upload Saturday night. Click the thumbnail for the photos. Enjoy!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Robert
According to the printed schedule, Main line trains will not stop at Secaucus. Furthermore, Secaucus is listed as a scheduled WEEKDAY stop on the Bergen line, starting August 4th. I don't think soooooooo...
Furthermore, NONE of the trains to/from Port Jervis have a scheduled stop at Secaucus. Not during the week. Not on weekends. Even the Port Jervis trains that make local Main line stops are skipping Secaucus, according to the schedule. Only Bergen line trains are going to stop at Secaucus.
So... As I rode past Secaucus, a few hours ago, I saw that a new paved two lane road, one in each direction, runs parallel to the Bergen tracks, from the street and the RR crossing just north of the station, to a medium-sized paved lot south of the station that runs all the way out to the Main line side, and the platforms over there. Looks like a passenger drop-off/pickup area. It's only one lane in each direction, only big enough for cars. Definitely not for buses.
As my train whizzed past, I spied a work crew installing big swing-style gates. They kind of look like the swing-style gates to an old tyme' bar in old western movies. Only bigger. The drop-off/pickup area will not be open 24x7.
There were a bunch of trucks parked at the Harmon Cove construction there, but nobody was there. One of the new tracks runs almost all the way out to the suspension bridge. They're going to cut in one of the tracks just as it comes off the bridge.
Finally, what's going on between Ramsey and Mahwah? We slowed down to a restricted speed just as we went under the big bridge under route 17, and there was a bunch of construction activity down there that looked like a new station platform in the process of being built! It ran for about 300-400 feet, next to the southbound track. I thought I saw something there last week, but I thought I was hallucinating. I looked carefully this week, and wouldn't you know it? I didn't see any poured concrete, but there was definitely something there that looked like it was meant to provide support for some kind of a platform, with support beams for a roof, placed every eight feet or so.
I've been driving through the area, above on route 17 almost every week now, for the last five months. They've had major construction going on there for quite some time. Lots of heavy equipment all over the place. I thought all they were doing is making a new ramp off route 17 to the local streets, or rebuilding the one that's there right now. But I always had the impression that there was just too much happening there just for one lousy highway ramp. They've cleared out a lot of area below the highway, as if they were making room for a large parking lot. And now there looks like some kind of a platform being built next to the track below.
I wasn't looking to see if anything was happening next to the northbound track. This is halfway between Ramsey and Mahwah stops, right under the Route 17 bridge. Perhaps it's a pedestrian underpass for Route 17, but I didn't see anything that looked like it might become a fence to keep people from wandering on the tracks.
CG
--jon
It was taken around Harrison St, a few blocks south of the terminal.
Best conversation snippet
Worker: Hey, aren't you going to videotape the urine stains on the platforms? (lots of laughs)
Me: Why? Aren't you going to have them over there? (pointing to the new station - more laughs)
Worker: Not for at least a week or so! (Even more laughs)
http://www.trainweb.org/oaksmodelrr/Video/Index.html
Chuck Greene (Philadelphia. Pa.)
BTW, could you perhaps post a video clip of me taking the photo of you tanking the video of me taking the photo? I would much appriciate it. I mean I made it onto KYW, but it would be really cool if I could make it onto that Oaks Model RR site. Feel free to use the photo that I took of you.
PS: Nice phaze III Amtrak shirt.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Thanks for asking, Mike.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Sounds like you should have broken out the old "life is full of these things called disapointments" speech.
Hmmm, sounds like he has a life.
Chuck Greene
In my grandson's case, he showed particular interest in crossing gates with the dinging bell in an audio picture book, so in one visit a favorite place became the Utica Ave crossing of the NJT Atlantic City line. Of course, visits are timed for when two trains will pass in five minutes.
BTW, John Almeida is a sight to behold when he's in action. When I photographed the Rockville Limited at Crum Lynne (after photographing it earlier in Radnor and riding it the previous day), John was at the platform across the tracks operating FIVE video cameras simultaneously.
Just got back from Frankford Terminal. I took 10 pictures and talked to a lot of very happy people. The see the light of day on Frankford Ave. is beautiful. They are running test trains back a forth over the new structure without a flaw. They still have to demolish a lot of the old structure from the old terminal building northward.
I'm glad I left when I did, it's raining quite hard now.
Everyone is very impressed with the changeover, many saying it's long overdue!
Let's hope the rush hour runs smoothly tomorrow. They were handing out flyers saying "most" of the bus routes will load at berths around the building, others will load on Bridge St. until further
construction makes more progress.
Chuck Greene
Hmmm, that sounds like the comments of an Anti-ELite.
Bill "Newkirk"
You always say that. I want to take a chance.
While Fred and Linda were tying the knot on this date in 1970, I was at Shea watching the Mets in person for the first time. Tom Seaver struck out 13 Padres and Cleon Jones hit a 3-run dinger as the Mets won, 5-3. After the game, we caught a 7 express back to Manhattan. It was a fast ride on the express track.
And on this date in 1920, the link from DeKalb to Prospect Park via Flatbush Ave. opened for business. BMT standards began operating on the Brighton line.
First train into FTC at 16:45 today. Cars 1095,1096,1103, and 1104.
Out of the yard, ran the outbound track, past the crossovers, then
onto the inbound track, then out again past the crossovers and onto
the outbound again, this time faster, then over the crossovers, back
through the inbound and into the yard.
(Reprinted from Philly Traction Groups) Thanks ,John , for the info!
Chuck Greene
SEPTA has proven that they are quite averse to any expansion of trolley lines—although the tracks and wires of the 15, 23 and 56 are extant and in excellent condition, they are only planning to switch the 15 back to trolley service from bustitution (and using ADA-compliant rebuilt PCCs at that). Do not expect any subway-surface lines, nor the trolley/interurban lines emanating from 69th Street Terminal, to experience any extension in the future.
Don’t know about on SEPTA property, but there is one Brill Bullet car currently stored in the elements adjacent to Steamtown’s Trolley Museum, up in Scranton PA.
Germantown Av is a great place to put a subway. But as far as I'm concerned, the trolley tracks should be removed permanently (they're murder on tires) and then a decision made about bus vs. trackless trolley.
The 23 still is a reasonable way to get downtown, to the Reading Terminal Market, and to the Broad Street line.
But since the car traffic is much heavier and isn't going away, and even bus tires get chewed up by the rails, the trolley tracks are doing more harm than good.
It isn't blasphemy, it's common sense.
You're entitled to your opinion, of course. Mine is that it's blasphemy AND it's common sense.
Links below are to Webshots photos of a Route 23 PCC charter. These charters have been commonplace the last coupla years, but their length of track covered has been shrinking. Keep your eyes open and grab the opportunity to ride one of these charters. They are usually mentioned on SubTalk, since Rockhill Trolley Museum has been sponsoring most of them, and SubTalkers Keystone Pete and Sparky (John S) give us a heads-up.
Town Hall, Germantown
2785 and 2728
reflection
Route 23
the route 23 (Germantown Av) trolley would be mostly a traffic obstacle
Traffic obstacle, eh? Did you used to work for National City Lines, sir…?
But as far as I'm concerned, the trolley tracks should be removed permanently (they're murder on tires)
Whaat? Never heard of such a thing. Perhaps you just buy cheap tires? I drive over trolley tracks on 12th Street in Philly quite often and my tires are not bothered.
Guess what—they built street trackage on Essex Street in Jersey City NJ for the HBLRT; I used to drive on there almost every weekend to check out the LRVs and guess what, my tires were OK. What a nonsensical thing to say. People drive on the street trackage in Philly day in and day out and nothing happens to their tires.
As for TTs, SEPTA is against them, substituting them with diesel bus quite often too. So forget about the 23 and 56 going TT too.
The street isn't wide enough to accommodate trolleys and trafficNor are the other streets where you have street-running in the City of Brotherly Love. That excuse holds no water.
Could you please refrain from replying to me. Whenever you see a post of mine, ignore it in the future. Just a request. Thank you so much.
What are you talking about? The street is wide enough. How do you think they ran trollies there in the first place? They still currently run trolleys sometime along the line with buses in service. This is as recent as last December. Trackless trolleys working there? Hmm, well new ones would most likely be 102 inches wide, which can't work on Germantown Ave, particularly in Chestnut Hill and Mount Airy.
But as far as I'm concerned, the trolley tracks should be removed permanently (they're murder on tires)
So, you are saying that the cobblestone streets have nothing to do with tire wear?
With a lot more traffic delays. There hasn't been trolley service there for some time. I lived along Germantown Av between 1999-2002. It's an overused road that is also the main thoroughfare for police and ambulance response.
"They still currently run trolleys sometime along the line with buses in service. "
That's for railbuff trips, where ONE TROLLEY does ONE TRIP on ONE day. That's a lot less than "occasionally." I would not want to be the one who has to tell the store owner being held up, or the spouse of a cardiac arrest victim, that the responding officer or ambulance took longer because Germantown Av is all jammed up.
"Trackless trolleys working there? Hmm, well new ones would most likely be 102 inches wide, which can't work on Germantown Ave, particularly in Chestnut Hill and Mount Airy."
San Francisco has trackless trolleys which are basically the same as standard buses in size.
"So, you are saying that the cobblestone streets have nothing to do with tire wear?"
No, but I'm saying the tracks make it worse. Frankly, it might not be abad idea to take out the cobblestones on Germantown Av and leave them only on side streets, if there are any left.
I like trolleys too, and I rode SEPTA everywhere when Ilived there. I like what SEPTA is doing on Girard. But we have to set aside railbuff issues (very hard on Subtalk, I know).
A regular trolley on Germantown Av is a bad idea.
"The Neoplans that are used exclusively on the 23, except for the Big Blue Bus that appears once in a blue moon, are 96 inches wide."
SEPTA policy (guided by the ADA Advisory committee, of which I was a part) does not favor the Neoplans long term, because they're getting on in years and because the wheelchair lifts are in the rear.
Note that Route 77 (further west on Germantown Av i Chestnut Hill) operates with newer coaches.
That's for railbuff trips, where ONE TROLLEY does ONE TRIP on ONE day. That's a lot less than "occasionally."
But it's amazing how often people waiting for a Route 23 bus try to get onto a PTC-painted PCC car on Germantown Ave when the charter stops for a red light. They are invariably people old enough to have ridden the trolleys and they just start to get on out of habit.
some photos from Oct 27, 2002, charter
Additional photos on page 1 and page 3
But they have a future - on Girard Av, perhaps even on Erie Av (line 56) where there is room to run them.
Hmm, what about the Route 100 extension to King of Prussia? That has been in the planning stages for quite a few years, and not too long ago (although I wasn't able to attend) they had a Public Meeting about it as well. They are still planning on building it using existing rail/right of ways somewhere. I saw a map of the proposed changes, but I'll have to ask my friend where he found it.
I'd also like to see the 34 extended to somehere, right now it just ends at Darby Creek, what am I supposed to do, transfer to a canoe? The ultimate extention would be out to 69th St terminal, via baltimore to Church La, then up 69th St, following the 108. But really, the 34 isn't bad, it collects more along the line than it moves terminal to terminal, so I guess I'd rather have a relatively high chance of getting a seat rather than having the trolley be filled at the first stop.
Also the 10 to Overbrook Station, again another connection to make the trolley 'go' somewhere, but it really isn't critical at all.
A real long-shot is the short extension of the 10 to Overbrook Station. That would be a 3 or 4 block extension. It makes sense, but when does sense enter into the picture regarding SEPTA?
$$$ - there's the problem.
I wouldn't say that...they may have a faster pick up, but they generally operate slowly on streets, not to mention the fact that they have to slow down significantly when following curves.
Chuck Greene
See here and here , and here.
Time does stand still there. Luckily I had the opportunity to visit the station twice.
Am I to understand some have ridden through on the 6? What level of "wrongness" is this act?
Many crews will insist that you leave, anyway. It's probably a good idea to do so. If you ride in the last car, it's unlikely that the crew will be aware of your existence.
There is a police officer stationed at City Hall around the clock. I don't know what he does if he notices a passenger on a train. When I saw him last, he was too engrossed in his newspaper to bother keeping an eye on the train.
Sounds like you're looking for CC LOCAL. I wonder if he's been through there?
Don't Have AOL Instant Messenger? Download it Free from www.aim.com!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Run a search for "Subway Sign" (without the " " ) and presto!
Post if you DON'T know ebay's website addy...
I would have ONLY linked the investigating "sources" to those
listings, brah.
Sane Ferry
Also, why do they sometimes put the sign in upside-down? I've seen this at least a dozen times...
I hope this isn't too confusing. It was a lot simpler on the BMT standards - all of their roller curtains were printed on both sides.
What has bothered me all these years is how many scrolls are installed backwards, so that the larger sign (meant for the larger window on the exterior of the car) shows up in the smaller inside window and can't be read properly. Of course the smaller sign is in the outside window, readable but looking ridiculously tiny.
I doubt that R-62 still has a B div roll...
http://transferpoint.bravepages.com/museum/transit_pictures/41/06.jpg
Av of the Americas Local
Queens Express
I'm not sure if that was on the first line of the third roll, because I was too far away to get a good look. Whatever the reading was, it took up practically ALL of the top portion of the sign.
The route serves the East Pasadena Station, at Sierra Madre Villa Avenue and Foothill Boulevard.
The normal 50-cent fare is waived for senior citizens age 65 and older, youths 16 and younger, and the disabled. However, all three groups must obtain an ID card through the city's Community Services Department.
Sierra Madre shuttles will stop at the Community Center, at Santa Anita Avenue and Sierra Madre Boulevard, and at several intersections along Grandview Avenue: Santa Anita, Stone House Road, Camillo Street, Canon Avenue, Mountain Trail Avenue, Baldwin Avenue, Auburn Avenue, Lima Street, Sunnyside Avenue and Michillinda Avenue, Keith said in her report.
Meanwhile, parking officers from a private company, Inter- Con, will begin patrolling South Pasadena next week. "Effective Monday, they'll be in full enforcement mode,' said police Chief Daniel Watson.
"The parking enforcement officers work the whole city, but certainly for a while they'll be spending the majority of their time and effort ... around the (Gold Line) station,' Watson said.
Fines for parking violators cost $20 or $25.
NOTE I DID NOT SEE ANY SIGNS SAYING YOU CANNOT PARK NEAR THE MISSION STATION THERE IS A OVERNIGHT PARKING SIGN BUT THAT IS ONLY FOR
2 AM TO APROX 5 AM in the stuck up city of south pas-!!.......??
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
BTW, There is an R-38 with an R-16 end on it's #2 end as well. (Signs blanked out)
Trip 1: Sat. Aug 23, 2003 - IRT SMEE - Flushing and Astoria
Trip 2: Sun. Aug 24, 2003 - R9s
After these trips, cars will be returned to the museum.
Trip 3 & 4
Sat & Sun Sept 27 & 28 - D Types + Steeplecab loco #6
IIRC, Cash fits the bill on day of trip ONLY.... not by mail.
And my vacation lands right in between them!
: ( Elias
(Just kidding, Before anyone posted other wise.)
Robert
Now where is R36 9685 on the 7 when you need him?
Hope to see many of you there as well!
When were you on R-9's that traveled the exact route that the 8/24 trip will take and stopped at the same photo stops?
Chuck Greene
Yippee! Yappie!! Yahooey!!!
I was kicking myself repeatedly for not going on the last ones!
I'll see ya at the trip!
I will be attending the IRT trip for sure.
Same deal, selling tickets at the day of the trip????
Did it ever occur to you that maybe these are the only dates the TA will allow? Running these trips is hard and getting all involved dept's to cooperate is even harder.
It is not as easy as you may think... Even when it comes to scheduling it.
I was also sharing my pain at not being able to ride.
I'm not cliaming that the TA or MOD orginizer is targeting the Jewish faith even though I've yet to see these trips scheduled for another's MAJOR religous holiday.
I'm not being facetious. To many people, Christmas is a day they're forced to take off from work even though they don't celebrate anything then. If the crowds at the movie theaters (and, formerly, at Ratner's) are any indication, the train would fill up in a jiffy.
What I'm trying to say is that while I know religious reasons may stop many people from going on a MOD trip on a Jewish Holiday, there is no religious reason stopping even the most devout Catholic from going on a MOD trip on Christmas (although the family might kill them).
Even Ash Wednesday is not a holy day of obligation.
1 - Christmas with the family vs. train trip?
2 - Boxing Day sales vs. train trip?
Decisions, decisions...
-Robert King
Most in the private sector do not have them off and are forced to use vacation time.
I may get struck down for saying this, but when the holidays fall out during the week, it makes for great railfanning: full weekday service, less crowding and no alternate side- which gives you a bigger selection of stations to park near. It's also a great time to go to Atlantic City or Connecticut if you like gambling. (Though one Yom Kippur when I went down to AC, not only did I get killed at the slots, but I tore my sneaker sole off on the boardwalk. The bus played HOME ALONE going down; FREE WILLY coming back. The same hygiene-challenged woman sat next to me both ways. THAT'LL learn me!)
It's also rough for observant Jews who must be out of commission three out of four entire weekends. Even the Orthodox hate when the holidays fall over the weekend. Sundays are their only day for leisure activities, like railfan trips.
The same scenario unfolded last year, when Branford had its New York Days over both days of Simchas Torah, and Try Transit was that Sunday. Bus Fest 2002 was on a Saturday only. The Metro-North Open House at Croton shops has always been on a Saturday only, because they can only disrupt their operations for one day.
I doubt the March of Dimes deliberate scheduled the September trips to fall out on Rosh Hoshahah weekend on purpose. They probably just neglected to check the calendar. Whether this would've made a difference, I don't know.
Like it or not, it's basically a Christian-dominated country we live in. That fact is all the more evident every December.
Not really. When the holidays fall out on weekdays I have to use up my vacation days. I'd rather they fall out on weekends when the railfanning is so-so, and have my vacation days to use for weekday railfan trips, such as this coming Monday in Philadelphia and the following Monday in Washington, DC. Everyone is invited to both of those trips. I will post details about the Washington, DC trip tonight.
If so, I'm out.
--Mark
Howard,
Since you brought up the subject, wasn't it the merchants of a non-
Christian persuasion, who capitalized on the December event and
removed "Christ" from Christmas and ran with "their" lucre?
8-( ~ Sparky
I hope this response is a to ALL.
8-) ~ Sparky
Bad move to select consists on the September dates, just switch the trains around and they can have the dates unchanged.
But we all know that the schedules on the September trips stink and there is little to change that weekend. The weekend before is just as bad because of Branford (Members Day weekend, 9/20 and 9/21.)
Member's Day at Branford is in April. It's Rapid Transit weekend at Branford on 09/20-21.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The weekend of the D-type trips in September is also the weekend for
"Workin On The Railroad" at Branford, so there is a conflict.
Has any thought been given to the fact of the least amount of construction within the system on the dates selected? >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
KOOL,
You've neglected one factor, seven of eight of the AMUEs & SMEEs to
be used on the trips 23\24 August belong to the Transit Museum.
They are to be returned to the Museum site, the week of 25 August. DAH. >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
Now this is everyone's last chance that weekend to ride the AMUE/SMEE cars before they return to Court St/IND station.
Hopefully just until next year's Anniversary celebrations. That IS why they fixed them up.....I hope.
Then when the fantrip is over they'd have to put them back, probably the day after. So basically that would mean at LEAST 3 days where several cars would be missing from the museum, disappointing patrons who can't afford/don't know about said fantrip.
Anyway that's just my theory.
On the August dates, or sometime that week, I hope to ride the Cape May Seashore Line RR. (It's my annual vacation on the Joisey Shore).
--Mark
til next time
Brian, please don't take this the wrong way... I am not criticizing your choice of how strictly you observe the tenets of the faith we share... but it's not that you can't attend, you choose not to do so because it conflicts with the way you choose to live. All of us make such decisions; my choices are different than yours, obviously (I am not a strict Sabbath observer nor do I keep strictly kosher, but I attend Friday night services with some regularity and will definitely be in shul on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur), but they are choices. Nothing is preventing me from attending any of the MOD trips, just as nothing is preventing you; both of us, for reasons of our own, are choosing not to attend on specific dates.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's your choice not to waver from it. I wouldn't criticize you for it and I agree that events taking place only on Saturday suck.
And everyone knows that Orthodox Jews DON'T have the choice to decide if they want to ditch their religion for the day and go for a subway ride.
It's your choice to be an Orthodox Jew.
Other people of other religions are allowed to to attend a service for a few hours and then do anything else they want for the rest of the day. They have the choice to spend the day at services and then with family and friends or to go to services and then to railfannning.
This is why I agree than Saturday-only events suck.
Nor am I... at least not Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. But I do not hold to the same level of Saturday observance that you choose to. And the Saturday trips were really the point of my discussion... you have displayed a regular tendency to whine about not being able to participate in events that occur on Friday night or Saturday. We all know that you're Orthodox and have accordingly made the choice, which we all respect, to not do certain things at that time; the whining only serves to provoke reactions such as mine.
I do agree that some sensitivity to the major holidays would be nice, but as American Pig said, it may well be that that weekend was the only opportunity they had to do it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Whoops, it was you (Brian) who said that... sorry.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As for whether it's a choice -- that depends no his beliefs. If he believes that the Sabbath is a nice cultural observance, or that it's a good excuse to get a nap, or that the people in his shul are friendly, then he can choose to let it go one week for a railfan trip. If he believes that he's commanded to observe the Sabbath by an omnipotent deity, then observing the Sabbath is less of a choice than is not jumping a turnstile in direct view of a cop.
Other days and dates do come with automatic exclusions, it's just that they are for a different set of people. I am aware of two posters on this board for whom events on Sunday are no more an option that events on Saturday are for you and Brian, because of the beliefs which those two posters choose to hold, but neither of them are publicly complaining about the choice of Sunday for two of the fan trips.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nobody's complaining that stuff goes on on Saturdays. The complaint (if it's a complaint at all) is that the same people who are automatically excluded from two of the four trips because they're on Saturday are also automatically excluded from a third because it's on Rosh Hashanah, and were also automatically excluded from the last trip that used the same equipment because it was on Succot.
But I don't think anyone's actually complaining. Promoting awareness is more like it. When Brian and I pointed out that the original schedule of the last set of MOD trips made it impossible for some people to ride the IRT cars (and probably made it impossible for some people to ride the IND cars), Bill Wall changed the schedule. Obviously, he was more than prepared to accomodate those who he could accomodate, and I think many of us are grateful for the change, but he didn't realize there was a scheduling snag until it was pointed out.
Between the two upcoming Steeplecab trips and the one last year, all three take place on dates that automatically exclude a few people who might have wanted to attend. Nobody's being blamed for anything. There's simply a request on the table that, next time, those same people not be automatically excluded for the same reason, if at all possible.
Some fundamentalist Christians follow essentially the same interpretation of their sabbath as do Orthodox Jews, prohibiting all activities on Sunday that are not specifically related to worship. I don't know whether this would prevent them from riding a train if the purpose was to get to church, but it would prevent them from doing so for a fan trip.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But Orthodox Jews don't follow that interpretation!
Orthodox Jews don't claim there's anything wrong with reading a book or playing a game of chess or taking a nap on the Sabbath. They do claim that there's something wrong with riding a train, whether or not it's specifically related to worship. If the nearest shul is ten miles away, no observant Orthodox Jew would ride the train there -- either he'd hoof it out or he'd stay home.
(Orthodox Jews don't even claim there's any particular obligation to go to shul on the Sabbath at all. There's an obligation to pray every day of the week, and shul is the preferred place to do it. That's it.)
Now you know why I could never be Orthodox... I couldn't possibly keep track of all the do's and don'ts :-)
But the effect, in this case, is the same... they can't do it, for reasons related to the choice of religious observance they have made.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That was a joke right ?
Excuse me if I think Brian is whining.
You live you life according to beliefs that you've been taught by your parents and other mentors thru your life.
The testament of a true believer is how they live there life not what day they observe it !
That's not quite like the holidays of most other religions, which may have scheduling problems because special prayer services are required, but make no impositions on the rest of the day. One poster said that he'd attend a Christmas railfan trip; he'd just have to go to midnight mass. An observant Jew doesn't have that option: the issue isn't a scheduling conflict of an hour or two; it's a blanket prohibition of riding trains from sunset Friday to sundown Saturday, period, no matter what, except to save a life. (Taking pictures and swiping MetroCards are also out.)
I was not aware of any other religions that similarly prohibit certain acts on their Sabbaths. Steve suggested one interesting possibility.
Judaism has many commandments that are in effect every day of the week -- eating kosher, for instance. The Sabbath is a special day with its own special rules on top of the everyday ones. (Traditional Judaism doesn't claim there's anything intrinsically wrong with riding a train, only that the Sabbath isn't the day to do it.)
Yes, it sounds crazy to most non-Jews. Don't worry, it sounds crazy to most Jews, too.
But we can ride trains.
But on the fast days themselves, no eating or drinking anything at all, except for the seriously ill (or those who would become seriously ill were they to fast). Additional restrictions apply on the two 25-hour fasts.
When David and I discuss the "Saturday" issue we are mainly talking about "Friday night/Saturday ONLY" events such as the ERA meetings and UTC meetings, and anything else that regularly happens on the same day and never changes to a different day.
But in any event, I don't see any of us changing our minds on this issue. I understand your view and hopefully from the above you will understand mine. So let's move on to some humor:
-----
From the movie The Big Lebowski...
Walter Sobchak: "I told that kraut a f_ckin' thousand times I don't roll on shabbos!" --Walter to Donny (Steve Buscemi), upon realizing he's scheduled to bowl on the Jewish Sabbath
--
Walter Sobchak: Saturday, Donny, is shabbas, the Jewish day of rest. That means I don't work, I don't drive a car, I don't f_cking ride in a car, I don't handle money, I don't turn on the oven, and I sure as sh_t don't f_cking roll!
--
Walter Sobchak: I'm saying, I see what you're getting at, Dude, he kept the money. My point is, here we are, it's shabbas, the sabbath, which I'm allowed to break only if it's a matter of life or death--
The Dude: Will you come off it, Walter? You're not even f_cking Jewish, man.
Walter Sobchak: What the f_ck are you talkin' about?
The Dude: Man, you're f_cking Polish Catholic--
Walter Sobchak: What the f_ck are you talking about? I converted when I married Cynthia! Come on, Dude!
The Dude: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah--
Walter Sobchak: And you know this!
The Dude: Yeah, and five f_cking years ago you were divorced.
Walter Sobchak: So what are you saying? When you get divorced you turn in your library card? You get a new license? You stop being Jewish?
The Dude: It's all a part of your sick Cynthia thing, man. Taking care of her f_cking dog. Going to her f_cking synagogue. You're living in the f_cking past.
Walter Sobchak: Three thousand years of beautiful tradition, from Moses to Sandy Koufax-- YOU'RE G_D_MN RIGHT I'M LIVING IN THE F_CKING PAST!
Thanks for the quotes from the movie... I'm not much of a moviegoer so I wasn't familiar with it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Who knows, I might meet some employee SubTalkers on the AMUE trip.
Koi
Chuck Greene
Koi
If those dates are inconvient, and you would like a little handle time too, Branford will feature R-17 #6688 both days of Rapid Transit Week-end (Aug 16th & 17th). Via the "Be a Motorman" program you can opertate her or one of our trolleys, under supervision. This event will be repaeted for the last time this season, Sept. 20th & 21st. That may be a Arenine week-end, i.e. using our R-9 #1689.
I'm tentatively planning on coming up Sept. 21st. The car I'd most like to operate is 6688. Do you think 6688 could be out and running too on that date? Thanks!
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
-Larry
Count on it. (I do)
:0)
The following year, unlimited cards were introduced, and I think that's when the 10% bulk bonus was first implemented. In 1995, the fare was $1.50 per ride for just about everyone, with no free intermodal transfers; three years later, the fare was $1.36 or less for most regular passengers, including free intermodal transfers.
That's as much a fare rollback as anything. It's certainly more of a fare rollback than I've seen many suggest: instead of a $2.00 fare with discounts of all sorts, they've proposed a $1.75 fare with no discounts. To most riders, that's a fare hike!
Specifically, the bulk bonus was implemented on January 1 and unlimited rides on July 4, 1998. The Fun Pass didn't come around until January 1, 1999.
Also, the express bus base fare was lowered from $4 to $3 on March 1, 1998.
Incidentally, what's wrong with this picture I took in June of this year?
I would have asked for one, but the computers were down. A lot of good the MetroCard Bus is when the computers are down!
The putrid color of the wrap on that bus :^)
That's one TA bus we DONT have to pay a fare to board.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
>>>The [proposed Yellow Line extension] would push the line north from Dempster to the Westfield Shoppingtown Old Orchard mall or to Old Orchard Road. Some who live north of the existing line worried about the noise, safety problems, traffic congestion and lowered property values an extension could bring to their neighborhoods. <<<
Under what circumstances do property values increase or decrease in the presence of new mass transit?
www.forgotten-ny.com
My guess would be that new mass transit increases property values in the service area, except possibly in the immediate vicinity of a station and directly along a surface or elevated line. I'd like to see some statisitical analyses of the issue, if any exist, to see if my assumption holds true.
Other thing that can make property values go up is close loaction to shopping centers and things like that. My house value will go up nicely when the new a Target, Stop $ Shop, Lowes home improment center and other that are being built right across the street from me open up later this years.
Robert
All studies done to date show a significant increase in property values within a station's service area and within a few blocks of it; little or no effect along the ROW itself. Since no one builds Els the way they were done in the late 1800s and early 1900s, there's not much to worry about in the way of noise.
However, transit lines do encourage greater density of development, and higher property values can bring higher property taxes.
The article being quoted in this thread was full of the usual NIMBY bullshit.
Property values would drop near the line (assuming it's not underground) if there are no nearby stations.
But documented evidence has clearly shown the opposite. In every case where a modern El structure has been built (Miami, Atlanta, Washington, San Francisco) property values have risen.
What you are referring to is political opposition. Different animal.
"Even with a modern el structure, the trains can still be pretty noisy,"
Uh, not really. Check out Miami Metrorail sometime, or Washington, and see for yourself. Your statement is false."
There's no simple answer, but I think you can pretty much go with:
New or "Improved" Mass Transit increases property values when it significantly improves service (reduces travel time or improves convenience in getting to a popular destination) for the residents of that area.
The most obvious recent example of this that I can think of is NJT's Midtown Direct, created a one-seat (well, one standing spot) ride into midtown that took about 15-20 minutes less than the prior PATH connection through Hoboken. Housing prices along the Maplewood - Chatham corridor skyrocketed at rates far beyond the huge increases seen elsewhere during the mid 90's.
New or "Improved" Mass Transit decreases property values when it does not provide a service improvement to the residents of the area and is aimed at bringing people into or through that area.
Given the relative lack of recent construction in metro NY and the success of the NIMBYs in blocking projects that might cause value decreases, I can't immediately think of any specific recent projects that have caused values to fall.
As Peter mentioned, for those houses which immediately face or abut the ROW a value decrease should be expected in most cases.
CG
But typically I think their neighborhood first has to have:
- Aging housing
- Be in the same direction from town as the "scary" populations
- Already be changing (people moving out)
Otherwise, transit should be helpful (but try to tell the NIMBY's that). And, of course, in New York, people should long ago have gotten over trying to keep "them" out of their neighborhoods.
Even if these conditions apply, the area probably won't turn into some sort of slum unless it also has a stock of multifamily housing, or at least large older single-family houses that can be cut up into rentals. New transit lines aren't going to ruin any neighborhood.
In LA, BTW, there are single family slums, but in NYC, you're right --if the housing is single-family AND bad enough to really wreck, it'll get torn down before it'll get run down.
In New York City, the subways are used by the working poor of various races and national origins, and by college-educated workers who moved here from all over the country and are linked to Manhattan.
The areas without subways are often occupied the remnants of New York's white ethnics, many of whom are not college educated. Often, these groups hold unionized positions in construction, government, construction or utilities that pay better than the alternatives available. They look down on mass transit, and almost never use it.
An improvement in mass transit creates dual fears for such groups. If the believe that subway service will encourage racial and ethnic minorities move it, they will be worried about falling property values and crime. If, on the other hand, the believe that subway service would attract college-educated Manhattan workers, they'll be worried about gentrification and being priced out.
Either way, don't look for too much interest in subway service in places like Maspeth, Glendale, Middle Village, Laurenton, Bayside, etc.
BTW, Bayside does not belong with the rest. It has become quite diverse, with a higher percentage of college educated professionals.
CG
I know who lives in Southeast Queens. I used to work with a lot of censu data, and surveyed most of the city, remember?
Irony. The Black city councilwoman representing Southeast Queens, one of them most affluent Afro-American communities in the country, responded to yet another study of the E extension with an objection. Subway service would bring crime, she said.
And in a city which has gone from mostly White to mostly not, there are people organized and objecting to White people moving to their neighborhoods where they don't below! Yes it's true, it's a political issue.
So resentment, hostility, and insularity is not just among white faces either. But it is certain groups of people, though perhaps it is difficult to describe their common characteristics accurately. In any event, the number of New Yorkers of Puerto Rican descent, non-college educated Whites, and Blacks who don't have West Indian heritage (including those from the south) is fast shrinking to zero. These are the people who segregated themselves from each other.
Aside from such people, and in some cases including those who have chosen to stay rather than leave, the city is, in my opinion, vastly more integrated that 20 years ago when I arrived, both in terms of education and skin color. You see it, among other places, on the subway.
"one of them most affluent Afro-American communities in the country,"
well, not really, and still afflicted by individuals a ghetto mentality.
That's what you get when only 5% of your community bothers to vote in an election. You get an idiot representing you in city council.
NIMBY would not kill an E extension, though. While it would be nice if that councilwoman would take better care of her constituents (not just the NIMBY loudmouths and the bigots), her opposition would not block the project.
But there is only so much room in the Capital Plan, and this isn't a priority right now.
I don't think that's the case here Ron. While I can't comment either way on the quality of the councilwoman, I will point out that these neighborhoods have turned over nearly 90% in the last 25-30 years. During that time, the people moving to these neighborhoods did so fully knowing that there was no subway access to the rest of the city and -- given the high crime rates in other parts of the city where many of these folks moved from -- many likely moved there specifically because there was no subway link.
I suspect this councilwoman is doing a very good job of representing the opinion of her constituency on this issue -- regardless of how many of them actually voted.
CG
If citywide crime rates continue to drop, some of this anti-transit prejudice may diminish. Not that it would make any difference in practical terms; an E extension is a lower priority than the SAS and the 7 extension.
It is exatly this point that most concil idiots are agains everything. People angry are more likly to vote. If the concilman leads the charge it is an easiy reelection. Marty golden got a rude awaking with his anti0token booth closing legistation. Golden represents many middle class residents that know that tooken booths provide no crime deterent. He recieved hundreds of letters against his legislation. We told him due to his ignorance on the tooken booth issues will be watching his work more closly in deciding wheter to re-elect him
Term limits swept out a lot of the anti-everything councilpeople. I hope they stay out. They represented people who had been moving away. The rest of use are better represented now than then.
No way. In fact, southeastern Queens has a very poor election turnout record, among the worst in NYC. You're reporting fiction there.
"During that time, the people moving to these neighborhoods did so fully knowing that there was no subway access to the rest of the city and -- given the high crime rates in other parts of the city where many of these folks moved from -- many likely moved there specifically because there was no subway link. "
False statement. Nonsense, in fact. People in Ozone Park have complained about the poor quality of subway service. But if you don't go to vote, you deserve whatever you get.
RIB -- "No way. In fact, southeastern Queens has a very poor election turnout record, among the worst in NYC. You're reporting fiction there."
I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say they had turned out (as in voter turnout) -- I said turned over, meaning that 90% of the population has moved out and been replaced by people who were formerly outsiders.
Your reference to Ozone Park is misplaced. Ozone Park is a community in southwest Queens with subway service. We've been talking about communities in southeast Queens without subway service. (But you knew that...)
I'm not saying this councilwoman (or assemblywoman or whoever she is) is right or wrong -- just that like any politician she likely reflects the opinions of her constituency.
CG
She was Councilwoman Juanita Watkins. She also opposed the construction of a new supermarket in her community, saying area residents could always drive to plenty of supermarkets just over the border in Nassau. But she's gone now.
In any event, I don't see the E extension as needed because East Side Access is being built. Densities are too low in eastern Queens for subway service to cover very much of its costs at $2.00 (acutally an average of $1.30) per ride. The densities in Queens make commuter rail service more appropriate, and (not that I want to give her any credit) is what Watkins wanted. Once LIRR capacity increases, more stations could be added in SE Queens, and more trains run to them.
The existing bus service is more costly for the TA to operate than train service. It's not a question of recovering total operating costs but rather one of reducing present costs. Bus service represented additional revenue prior to the Metrocard's introduction. That's no longer the case. It's about time that the TA's planners realized this.
BTW, have you applied your same total cost recovery criterion to the SAS?
In Southeast Queens, no matter which LIRR branch was used for the extended E, almost everyone would still have to take a bus to the train, though for a shorter distance.
(BTW, have you applied your same total cost recovery criterion to the SAS?)
On Second Avenue, those switching from the bus or taxi will be able to walk to the train. As far as having a higher cost for better service, yes I did consider -- and propose while at NYC Planning -- a higher price for the SAS for a period of years as a way of getting the line built, similar to the higher priced charged on the Rockaway Branch. As part of that plan, the SAS could be made FRA compatible and connected to the commuter rail network.
In any event, by your standards the entire subway system should not have been built, and perhaps that nothing should ever be done in the present to benefit the future, so why argue with you about what is more cost effective than what? My discount rate is zero (or perhaps lower, given the way I feel about my children and our future). Yours appears to be very, very high.
(Bus service represented additional revenue prior to the Metrocard's introduction. That's no longer the case. It's about time that the TA's planners realized this.)
I think they reailize this, although they still think of higher ridership as a good thing, as in their view it builds political support for tax-based subsidies.
There are 18 bus lines that extend east from the Jamaica terminals. Let's try to guesstimate the operating cost savings for truncating these routes by extending train service. Assume the average headway is 15 minutes and that an average of 3 miles could be saved. Then the amount of miles to be saved in one year would be:
18 x lines/direction x 2 directions x 4 bus/hr x 24 hr/day x 365 day/yr x 3 mile/line = 3.78 million vehicle miles/yr. NYCT's cost for operating a bus is $13.97 / vehicle-mile. So the reduction in the cost for trucating the bus lines would be $53 million annually.
Suppose there were a 4 mile extension of the subway. Assuming the same 20 minuted average headway for a 10 car train. The vehicle miles would be:
10 cars/train-direction x 2 directions x 4 trains/hr x 24 hr/day x 365 day/year x 4 miles = 2.8 million vehicle-miles/yr. NYCT's cost for operating a trains is $6.79/vehicle-mile. So the cost of providing extended train service would be $19 milion annually.
The net operations savings for extending a line east from Jamaica would be around $34 million.
I realize the concept of simultaneously increasing service and reducing cost is alien to the TA's mindset. However, that is the cost justification for extending rail transit to replace bus transit. Where's a similar thought process for the SAS?
(Bus service represented additional revenue prior to the Metrocard's introduction. That's no longer the case. It's about time that the TA's planners realized this.)
I think they reailize this, although they still think of higher ridership as a good thing, as in their view it builds political support for tax-based subsidies.
If that is the TA's only realization that feeder buses no longer provide their own revenue stream, then they are every bit as shortsighted as I give them credit for being. :-)
Assumption that all bus routes could be shortened because of the extended subway. There would still be a need for local bus service along Hillside Ave and Merrick Blvd.
4 miles east of Hillside/179 is the Nassau County line -- well beyond the point just about anyone argues that subway service is needed. Regardless, even if built that far, you wouldn't reduce mileage by anywhere near an average 3 miles per route.
Your estimate of average 15 minute headways 24 hours 7 days holds only for the busiest routes. Many of the 18 do not even have 7-day service or anything approaching the level of service you factor into your analysis.
Adjust for these and your estimated bus savings falls off a cliff.
CG
But extending the F and the J trains to some hypothetical point, say near the 200 block (I'm not picking a particular end-point, just saying we'll end the subway 2 miles from Nassau instead of four, OK?) gets you the prospect of shorter LI Bus runs (meaning the same number of buses can provide faster, more convenient and more frequent service) and can allow you to improve the alignment of city buses as well.
So the savings Stephen proposes are absolutely true for LI Bus routes; are largely true for the most directly affected city buses, and would allow modest improvements in other lines.
And it would give more people access to the subway who need it and want it.
You could argue that the F gets crowded enough as it is. I'd extend the J first, as it can do the most good.
Of course, neither is on the drawing boards...
Also, I think Stephen underestimates the impact of creating major bus terminals will have on the new subway endpoints. Take a look at Archer Avenue during the AM or PM rush. It took them years to finally clear out the traffic jams that result from all those busses trying to discharge and turn around. They finally pulled it off with a big road widening and creation of a bus lane. Where are you going to do that on Merrick Blvd?
Same goes for Hillside. Look at the bus terminal on 165th(?). You'll need a facility (perhaps a bit smaller, perhaps not) like that wherever you put the subway terminal. Go 20 or 40 blocks east on Hillside and tell me how many houses you'll have to knock down to build that.
You have a point. However, restoring subway service to where it used to run as well as extending it a reasonable distance will more than make up for the inconvenience. And it is subway service, not an El.
"Also, I think Stephen underestimates the impact of creating major bus terminals will have on the new subway endpoints. Take a look at Archer Avenue during the AM or PM rush. It took them years to finally clear out the traffic jams that result from all those busses trying to discharge and turn around. They finally pulled it off with a big road widening and creation of a bus lane. Where are you going to do that on Merrick Blvd? "
You popped a light bulb in my head:
Option: What if you made a stop on the subway the bus terminal itself, by routing the subway tunnel to it? Then you wouldn't have to move the terminal. You'd make it fancier, with a subway headhouse or an integrated structure with elevators and escalators etc. etc. and maybe some concession stands for food, snacks, sodas.
Just a thought.
Otherwise, as you get further from Jamaica Center you do get some blight, and at some point you could find a property where demolition and replacement with a new bus terminal would be an improvement.
"Same goes for Hillside. Look at the bus terminal on 165th(?). You'll need a facility (perhaps a bit smaller, perhaps not) like that wherever you put the subway terminal. Go 20 or 40 blocks east on Hillside and tell me how many houses you'll have to knock down to build that."
There is no terminal now at 179 Street. If you extended the F, then what I would propose is to truncate the LI Bus runs by simply routing the bus "around the block" and back toward Nassau. The F extension would not involve a new bus terminal.
Practically all the commuters go from subway station to bus without any deviation. The few blocks along Hillside and 179th never developed into any viable commercial area, despite its having a monopoly on such would be shoppers from 1950 until the opening of Archer Ave. The Jamaica Ave merchants, like most merchants, will have to attract customers by giving fair value for their wares.
Also, I think Stephen underestimates the impact of creating major bus terminals will have on the new subway endpoints.
One benefit of extending the lines would be to eliminate the need for bus terminals by eliminating the concentration of passengers. There would be 4 stops between 179th and Little Neck Pkwy. So, instead of having 18 bus lines terminate at one stop, there would be 4 lines terminating at each of 4 stops. That's a big difference.
the traffic jams that result from all those busses trying to discharge and turn around
The strategy would be to match a route going north of the new extension to one going south. This would eliminate the need to turn a bus around.
Look at the bus terminal on 165th(?).
The location of the 165th St bus terminal might have made sense when the Jamaica Ave El was the only subway link into the city. It hasn't been since 1936. I'm not familiar with the bus terminal's history but it looks of more recent origin. Not many people use it. They crowd up on Hillside or on Archer. It's not necessary. There's no reason to replicate a new one, if the existing subway line is extended to Little Neck Pkwy.
If there is a case for extending the E/J then there is at least as strong or stronger a case for extending the 7 line.
The escalators and elevator rarely work. Their absence wouldn't be noticed. :-)
I always then imagine a meeting where the MTA chairman in going around the table:
"Got the EIS?"
"Check."
"Secured $1 Billion in funding?"
"Check."
"Placated the NIMBY's?"
"Check."
"Hired 100's of construction workers?"
"Check."
"So it's a go."
"But what about the escalators"
"Oh. You're right. Forget it then"
CG
There is also the difficulty in admitting mistakes. This renovation was just a few years ago and for alot of money. If the MTA tore it up to extend the line, that would be admitting error. Its brave and its the right thing to do but will they?
Non-functioning escalators are a TA specialty. They are equally adept at providing non-functioning escalators entirely underground.
Any other stations in the MTA system or elsewhere that have escalators rising to street level like that have similar track records?
Not at all. The original escalator at Woodside operated for over 70 years without such problems.
I would like very much to know why there is such bumbling incompetence when it comes to escalators. They break constantly and take a geological era or two to replace.
I just walked past the Main St escalators. There are some "features" in the design that would make their operation more susceptible to bad weather.
The escalators and elevator entrance face east. There is an uphill going from west to east. This means that any water that might be present on the sidewalk would flow unhindered onto the escalator stairs.
There's a gutter on the roof of the escalator structure. There's a pipe leading from the east side of the gutter down under the sidewalk. The pipe then leads eastward and empties onto the street. The designers expect any residual water in the pipe to flow uphill to the street to drain. The pipe will rot out because of the residual water. The low point for this pipe is beside the top of the escalator mechanism.
Somebody else want to comment on the "brilliant" engineer in charge of construction?
But has the tie up at Penn Station always been so bad that people actually go to Hunters Point instead, wait for the free shuttle bus, and then cross by ferry and wait for the number 34 bus in Manhattan???? What an operation!!! What is the purpose of that Hunters Point terminal? It can't be to switch to the Flushing subway -- I don't see that many people boarding there.
I'll go to Hunters Point in the morning maybe once a month when I take the train from Stony Brook for variety's sake. Each time, I've noticed a lot of people, probably in the hundreds, transferring to the 7.
I'd better brace myself. I'd been told I could find a seat in the morning.
You're not very observant. The Hunters Point transfer permits people who work in the Grand Central area to get to work quicker than by going into Penn Sta. This is especially true for those who live beyond the electric zone and can take a direct train to Hunters Point.
There are only 11 trains which arrive at Hunters Point each morning between 6:30 and 10:00 AM. This includes large gaps from 6:34 to 7:26 and 8:00 to 8:36 where there are no trains. If you figure that the crowd getting off the LIRR is absorbed by the 7 within 10 minutes of arriving that leaves a gap of 42 minutes early in the rush and 26 minutes later on during which 7 trains would pick up no LIRR riders.
CG
Stephen correctly explained the station's primary purpose. A follow-on question might be: What purpose can this station serve after East Side Access is completed? Is the station close enough to LIC's waterfront developments to prompt its renovation? Would the LIC line be at risk for total abandonment when electric trains begin operating through LIRR's 63rd Street tunnel into Grand Central?
My guess is service to Hunters Point will be terminated.
A big reason for service to Hunters Point is inertia. Remember, that was the former LIRR terminal, after the Atlantic Avenue Tunnel was closed and before Penn Station. LIRR riders would catch a ferry to the foot of 34th Street, where an El spur would bring them in. You can still see the remnants of the former terminal from Manhattan.
When the ferries died, the terminal was moved back from the waterfront to the connection with the Flushing Line. The line continued, even though most people went to Penn Station, because stations such as Glendale could only be served by Hunters Point trains, and the diesels had to go somewhere.
After the Southwest Queens stations were closed, Hunters Point remained because of capacity issues at Penn, and the need to send the diesels somewhere. Among its regular users are the Montauk Cannonball, the super-express to the Hamptons during the summer. But do most Cannonball riders board at Hunters Point, or do they transfer at Jamaica?
My guess is that when ESA opens the diesels will relay west of Jamaica, and everyone will transfer to the increased number of electric trains going to the three destinations.
It HAS its purposes, and has been QUITE handy to have maintained historically. Anyone here remember any LIRR shutdowns EVER owing to "Penn Station is closed due to ... [insert Bin Laden comment here or an actual event such as a tunnel fire]) ...?" :(
Bottom line, Long Island NEEDS a destination. Even if the GCT connector is done, HP *remains* as a hip-pocket way to win for those who use the LIRR ... even if it involves a hike.
It could certainly be maintained as an emergency back up, and will certainly be used for freight.
The ferry interests want the public to pay rebuilding the original terminal at the waterfront. They believe many people would take a ferry to the foot of Wall Street -- it's only ten minutes or so -- from there, if it were not for the long walk and bus.
In a less bureaucratic age, such an extension would probably be built in a few months for a few tens of millions. As it is, if it does occur it will be hundreds of millions and years.
Glad I could be of service.
Now, as for Hunters Point ... It's a beautiful station, and I love those tunnel-entry platforms (there I go again), but then, so is the City Hall IRT station beautiful. And the fact is, HP is just too close to the adjacent two stations. Some of Elias's proposals to straighten up the L.I.C. 7-el may be more to the point.
No trains from Glendale ever stopped at Hunters Point.
Once ESA opens, the LIRR will still have the same problem with needing a place for the diesels.
Riders from the electric lines rarely transfer to the diesels at Jamaica to go to HPA. This is probably due more to ignorance of where HPA is and what you can connect to when you get there than it being a conscious decision about the best route to East Midtown. LIRR hasn't really ever publicized the option
But your point about the line's continuing utility as a revenue or non-revenue service track is well-taken
You're right. I'm thinking of the Long Island City station.
The need for east-west bus service would be greatly reduced, if the subway were extended eastward. There would be need for some residual east-west bus service only a small fraction of what currently exists. Possibly like the service on Queens Blvd that is supplied by the Q60.
4 miles east of Hillside/179 is the Nassau County line -- well beyond the point just about anyone argues that subway service is needed. Regardless, even if built that far, you wouldn't reduce mileage by anywhere near an average 3 miles per route.
Your estimate of average 15 minute headways 24 hours 7 days holds only for the busiest routes. Many of the 18 do not even have 7-day service or anything approaching the level of service you factor into your analysis.
4 miles from Midland Pkwy along Hillside reaches to Little Neck Pkwy, Still 0.75 miles from the city line. The extension of the subway line should result in a complete realingment of the Queens feeder bus system. My 3 mile figure is only a guesstimate, as I stated.
However, there would be very little need for east-west service south of the LIE. Thus, the Q46 one of the busiest routes in Queens and not included in the 18 line count out of Jamaica, would loose its primary feeder function. Most of the people along its corridor would opt for quicker north-south routes at Little Neck Pkwy, Springfield Blvd, Bell Blvd, Frances Lewis Blvd and 188th St. These north-south routes would no longer have to make a long trip along Hillside, Jamaica Ave or Merrick Blvd to get to the end of the subway line.
One legacy of eliminating split shifts has been a dramatic increase in midday and evening bus service. I have not counted the number of runs nor come up with a new routing plan. However, I feel that my guesstimate for the number of bus vehicle-miles is not grossly overestimated, especially when one examines the secondary savings due to route changes in routes like the Q46. OTOH, if you are inclined to do track down how many vehicle miles each route operates, I'd certainly entertain such objections.
But it's an important one. If it's 2 miles, your savings are reduced by 33%. If it's 1.5 miles your savings are cut in half. Please don't interpret my input as being critical of your calculations -- it's an excellent framework for preliminary analysis. But after nailing down the assumptions through that framework you'd have to run through many of the residual effects that you pointed out (decreased east/west service in some areas, but increased north/south).
"OTOH, if you are inclined to do track down how many vehicle miles each route operates, I'd certainly entertain such objections"
And therein lies the rub. On a quiet Sunday afternoon I'll browse some maps and make some estimates -- but unless the MTA (or you) are planning on paying me, I'm not going to put in the time it would take to tighten up the assumptions!
CG
I agree that the estimated average savings in vehicle-miles travelled is important. However, the relation between savings and passenger vehicle-miles saved is not linear. (It's the relation between operating expenses and passenger vehicle-miles travelled that is linear.)
On a quiet Sunday afternoon I'll browse some maps and make some estimates -- but unless the MTA (or you) are planning on paying me, I'm not going to put in the time it would take to tighten up the assumptions!
What makes you think that the TA's planning assumptions are any more rigorous?
That's why I figured that a big fat check wouldn't be headed my way anytime soon...
Not the best analogy to use when talking about buses.
If the Feds don't fund local projects, then these economists who work for the federal government would be out of a job. The watchdogs are usually any project's most fervent supporters. I've had some fun fighting FHA examiners on a road project that violated federal design guidelines. Those FHA examiners could have passed for Enron auditors.
Consider the Grand Central - Penn Sta shell game. They are building the ESA to reroute some LIRR trains from Penn Sta to Grand Central. Then they are proposing the Penn Sta access to reroute some MN trains from Grand Central to Penn Sta.
The examiners have already signed off on the ESA and will probably approve the Penn Sta access. :-)
Just like the WPA, everybody has a job.
I know that in the USA transit capital costs come from federal funds these days, so the MTA doesn't necessarily have to *pay* these interest charges;
It certainly skews how one evaluates capital projects. There is a strategy given these rules. One should opt for projects that increase profitability - namely those that increase operating revenue faster than operating expenses or those that reduce operating expenses. A Jamaica extension would reduce operating expenses.
She was a puppet of bodega owners. She supported ghetto values because playing the victim got her attention. I know of few elected officials who supported poverty more than she did. Good riddance.
Relatively sparse service, and could use more. But not El service, real subway service. Sink the Lefferts A branch into a subway and extend it further, and it will have customers.
"We've been talking about communities in southeast Queens without subway service. (But you knew that...)"
No, I didn't. Your definition of SE Queens is narrower than the generally accepted definition - but that is OK, because it is relevant to my comments and therefore you bring up a good point.
"I'm not saying this councilwoman (or assemblywoman or whoever she is) is right or wrong -- just that like any politician she likely reflects the opinions of her constituency. "
Wrong in places with poor voter turnout. By definition, a politician there will reflect the few politicaly active people who are seen as "opinion makers." Until more people get involved, that means the councilman or woman could be voting AGAINST the interests of constituents, but in relative safety, because he/she knows nobody will bother voting against him/her in the next election.
I don't follow this at all. People who live near the Lefferts line aren't going to decide whether or not to ride it based on whether it's an el or underground. That's pretty much irrelevant except to railfans. Okay, an underground station might be somewhat more attractive to due better protection from the weather, but on the other hand elevated stations might be percevied as a bit safer at night.
People will object to an extension of the line if it is planned to be an El.
Put the existing El underground, then extend it, and you deal with that objection.
Do people who ride the trains - not the people who live close to the line, but the riders in general - actually care whether it is underground or elevated, to the point of being more willing to ride it if its underground? I find that hard to believe. And on earlier threads (discussing JFK, the AirTrain, need for better service at Howard Beach, etc.) people have said that the Lefferts branch is pretty well used.
You and others seem to be missing my point here. My fault; I didn't express it well. Residents of that area would not be very happy with new El construction. AirTrain worked out well because it is over an expressway median. Extending the A train further than Lefferts should be done as a subway, not an El, and an important anti-NIMBY concession would be to retrofit the Lefferts branch as subway. The removal of the El from over Liberty Av and its replacement by subway (and new stations) would find favor with local residents.
I live in Cambria Heights, one of the better neighbourhoods of Southeast Queens. Nobody moved here upon the completion of any subway service. Most people moved to fleeing bad neighbourhoods that had transit access. Public schools are decent out here, but Catholic schools are very popular, especially among West Indians.
Many people in the area own cars, or know somebody who owns a car and will drive them around. A lot of the older residents wouldn't support any subway extension into the area on the fear that it would bring "those people we left behind". The image that a subway station evokes is a dirty, smelly station in their neighbourhood that can double as a homeless shelter. Sutphin Blvd, Jamaica Center, and 179th Street aren't exactly the best looking stations. Most people are content with the current bus/train transfers with MetroCard. The cheapest transit solution would be to offer more LIRR service and add small parking lots at the stations, along with fare restructuring that would encourage usage during peak and off-peak hours. A fare of $2.50 off peak and $4.00-4.50 peak with 15-20 minute service would attract many riders, especially when ESA is completed (would the LIRR’s signaling practices and car fleet allow for this?). Express buses cost too much to operate and suffer from traffic on roads and expressways. An extension of E or J/Z service is questionable because of the location of any possible stop. Would you end a subway line in a residential neighbourhood of single and two family houses?
I agree.
(Would you end a subway line in a residential neighbourhood of single and two family houses? )
Also correct. There is not enough people to support subway service in neighborhoods of detached houses, so people there need to expect to pay the higher cost of commuter rail. And since they are located farther from the center, they will usually be willing to pay it to get the faster ride.
"A lot of the older residents wouldn't support any subway extension into the area on the fear that it would bring "those people we left behind"."
That's ignorance which is oft-repeated by loudmouths. There is a reservoir of that in your neighborhood to be sure, and its shameful. But you make a good point about density and support of transit.
"The image that a subway station evokes is a dirty, smelly station in their neighbourhood that can double as a homeless shelter."
Which is an incredible exaggeration. I'm constantly amazed at the intolerance and stupidity people have for each other.
"An extension of E or J/Z service is questionable because of the location of any possible stop. Would you end a subway line in a residential neighbourhood of single and two family houses?"
Have you forgotten your geography? The J serves a business district, and if you extended it by a mile it would still offer service to an area with the density to support it. I'm not suggesting that it be extended all the way to the Nassau border. That's iunappropriate. But there's room for a couple of more stations (or even three) where there's more than enough density to support service. Recall that the old El went as far as 168th Street. It now ends at the equivalent of 153rd St.
Go back and refamiliarize yourself with Jamaica and Archer Avs.
Good. I like agreeing with you at least once in a while Ron. I actually think ESA will add many riders from Eastern Queens onto the LIRR. As it stands now, those going to the Grand Central area from Rosedale or Queens Village have 3 choices (LIRR/Express Bus/Local Bus to Subway) and the LIRR is both the most expensive and the slowest option.
CG
Ironic, isn't it?
I used to ride the Port Washington's Great Neck Express. We'd go maximum speed, racing past Woodside, and then screeching to a halt in front of the Penn tubes. Stop signal. Snore, look out the window, watch my chance to get into Penn 15 minutes early slip away (Jersey Mike wouldn't care in this situation; he'd be too mesmerized by those gorgeous position signals - they're better than women! :0) )...
ESA will help that a lot.
I remember -- that's why I was surprised your comment seemed to overlook this huge section of Queens.
As an off-topic aside, I happen to think SE Queens is one of the most interesting communities in the country. In a way it's very much like the lower east side of the 1850-1950 era in the way it's ethnic composition has turned over and will probably turn over again -- except that rather than being an area populated by recent immigrants with relatively little, it is full of people firmly on their way up the ladder.
CG
My understanding is that this is the area the Black middle class moved to in the 1960s and 1970s, when Harlem and most of Bedford-Stuyvasant went from being ethnic ghettos with a variety of incomes and family types to low income, single-parent slums. Subesequently, it appears that advancing Black families are following the former wave of Whites to the suburbs.
I recenly did a quick tabulation of Summary File 4 data from the 2000 census. It seems that for Whites, New York City is now a desirable place to live. Not only were New York City's Whites better off than those Upstate, where most of the state's poor White people live (no wonder Upstate's economy is always an issue), but they are in many ways better off than Whites in the suburbs. For example, 42 percent of New York City's Whites had college diplomas, vs. just 35 percent in the suburbs.
Not so for Blacks and Latinos. In New York City, they were characterized by low income, low education levels, low employment levels, etc. even at the peak of the 2000 boom. The growing number of Blacks and Latinos in the suburbs, on the other hand, were not only far better off than Blacks and Latinos in the suburbs, they were better off, on average, than Whites Upstate.
So, looks like we've got Black Flight going on. Maybe better schools would reverse it. In any event, perhaps it's not surprising that a councilwoman from SE Queens had a more negative attitude toward the subway than many of the college-educated Whites on this board.
CG
That's because SE Queens caught the inital wave of middle class flight from older Black neighborhoods. Then the lid came off in the suburbs, and out they went. For example, virtually all the really sharp Black and Latino engineers I deal with live at NYCT live in the burbs. It still seems to be the case, broad brush, that advancing Blacks and Latinos outmigrate. Same with all the Indians, Pakistanis, Egyptians, etc.
A couple have stayed in town, however. Schools are a lot of it. Crime was a lot of it. Image is a lot of it. It would be great if some part of the Bronx or Brooklyn was the place to live if you were Black or Latino and had suceeded in some way. Not the case now. Does Spike Lee still live in Fort Greene?
A couple have stayed in town, however. Schools are a lot of it. Crime was a lot of it. Image is a lot of it. It would be great if some part of the Bronx or Brooklyn was the place to live if you were Black or Latino and had suceeded in some way. Not the case now. Does Spike Lee still live in Fort Greene?
The residency regulations that prevent city employees from living outside of the city slows this movement, and there are a lot of city employees in these neighbourhoods. Since many of them cannot or choose not to move to better neighbourhoods in Staten Island or Northeast Queens, many choose to stay and try to keep the neighbourhood as nice as possible. They’ve used the savings from refinancing mortgages to renovate their homes with extensions and finished basements for use as illegal rental units. Of course if somebody can fake residency in another jurisdiction to obtain cheaper insurance or pay lower taxes, city employees can and will do the same.
Cambria Heights is stable since most people aren’t willing to sell. Cambria Heights is already a suburban neighbourhood with cape cod and a few ranches, and nobody is willing to sell their houses for similar style homes with high property taxes. The neighbourhoods that have older homes built before WWII will suffer because nobody is really interested in maintaining those houses. People who are selling are leaving for suburbs, the Sunbelt, or retiring.
Nassau suburbs in Elmont and Valley Stream are popular because they’re near Queens County and cause minimal problems in terms of changing various habits such as doctors, supermarkets, churches, and in some cases private schools. Suburbs in Suffolk County are popular because the houses are cheaper, larger and newer than housing stock in Queens.
People see the suburbs as the solution to their problems. Poor schools, high crime, gang activity, lack of parking space, small houses, and long commutes are why many are leaving. Many leave because they see their children surrounded by “bad influences” which are just as easily found in the suburbs.
Cape Cod? Is that a kind of house?
"People see the suburbs as the solution to their problems. Poor schools, high crime, gang activity, lack of parking space, small houses, and long commutes are why many are leaving."
Unfortunately, those problems are worse in some suburbs than in the city. Organized gangs often have more freedom to terrorize people in the suburbs than in NYC because Nassau and Suffolk police don't have the same resources that NYPD has to keep a lid on things. The same gang-banger who follows a Nassau officer home and makes threatening phone calls to his family knows NYPD would deal with him much differently.
I never cease to be amazed by people's naivete and stupidity.
A one story detached house with an attic that can be converted into additional living space.
Not quite. A cape's second story is living space right from the beginning. In most cases the bedrooms are located there. The second story has the same floor space as the first floor but less usable room because the roof slants back from front and rear to a peak running parallel to the front of the house - looked at from the side, the second story has an upside-down "V" shape. As a result, the bedrooms on the second story have reduced overhead clearance toward the outside. In many cases, dormers are built into the roof to increase useful space in the bedrooms.
There usually is a small attic below the roof peak.
(Not quite. A cape's second story is living space right from the beginning. In most cases the bedrooms are located there.)
Could go either way. Generally, you can get partial living space by having window alcoves sticking through the roof, generally in front. Some are built that way, some with just attics.
The famous Levittown house was built with just one story of usable space, but expansion programmed in via dormers. My in-laws homestead in North Wantagh, also a Levitt house in the Levittown school district, was built later and was larger. It had the window alcoves in the front, and two bedrooms from the start. Later, they raised the rear roof to a dormer to add a third bedroom and expand the master bedroom.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Only slightly. All the higher paying city union jobs have exemptions adopted by the state legislature in the early 1960s to allow people to live outside the city. That's why many of those unions have stayed primarily White. Meanwhile, almost any job that requires a college education can get an exception as a "hard to recruit" title.
It is only the low paid, primarily minority titles that are still required to live in the city (ie. cafeteria aid). The suburbs have no desire to have such people move out there.
Which bears out the point I've made before - homeownership in NYC can be a terrific deal because property taxes are far below those in the suburbs. Even if you factor in the city income tax and higher insurance rates, the city still comes out ahead
It's sort of an irony - in a city where homeownership is such an excellent deal, homeownership rates are very low.
You're leaving out one component that many people consider the biggest factor in the equation -- cost of private school tuition.
Not all city schools are horror pits. In addition, not all suburban schools are paragons of enlightened learning. And finally, not all home buyers have school-age children.
Good points. The Roosevelt school system comes to mind...
It depends on how much you earn. Those who earn big bucks come out way ahead in the suburbs, while the elderly and those who earn less come out ahead in the city. But remember, 1-4 family housing is subsidized by an unjustifiable special deal. Those who live in apartments, either owners or renters (property taxes are passed on in rent) always come out behind in the city.
The city income tax hits us hard, and we almost certainly pay less in the suburbs on a similar home, but I prefer it nonetheless. If one of us were to become unemployed, our tax liability would fall. Not so in the suburbs.
(Not all city schools are horror pits.)
There are a number of special deal schools for those who can get into them, but the demand exceeds the supply. In addition, during the teacher shortage of the 1990s the suburbs stripped these schools of decent teachers. Today in New York you can have an honors chemistry course taught by four teachers in a year none of whom know chemistry.
(In addition, not all suburban schools are paragons of enlightened learning.)
Perhaps, but that's not what people think, and not what the test scores say.
(And finally, not all home buyers have school-age children.)
There you have it.
Students performance is often proportional to the income of the students' families. If suburbs are generally more well-to-do than the city, then there's your answer.
Since elementary and junior high school districts are usually locked into attending schools in their local districts, student performance is likely to better in higher income neighborhoods.
So no matter how much money one spends on inner city schools, it won't make a difference. It's all about what goes on at home for the first few years of a child's life.
Since elementary and junior high school districts are usually locked into attending schools in their local districts, student performance is likely to better in higher income neighborhoods. "
Yes, and part of that equation is resources made available at schools (but only part).
"So no matter how much money one spends on inner city schools, it won't make a difference. It's all about what goes on at home for the first few years of a child's life."
False statement, and non-sequiter from your first two. Spending per pupil can (but does not always) make a very significant difference.
I attended a lecture given by Daniel Patrick Moynihan some time around 1967. At that time, I knew of Monyihan from "Beyond the Melting Pot". The crux of the lecture was that they really were not able to show any correlation between any alterable parameter and pupil performance. Spending per pupil was specifically mentioned. Moynihan stated that except for astronomical expenditures that there was very little correlation.
That lecture was given at the Harvard Club in New York City around the time of Miss Nesbett's death. Moynihan made mention of her recent death in his opening remarks in a building designed by Stanford White. Somebody could look up the exact date (within a week) from the obit listings.
I have not seen any more recent data or studies that refute Moynihan's assertion.
The same argument was made about crime -- you have poor people, you have minorities, you have crime. It turns out that the resources were not sufficient, and the police weren't bothering to do their jobs.
So which do you do first in this situation? Clean up the system or throw more money at educator who aren't doing their job?
An interesting comment was once made on this board (perhaps by Selkirk -- which would mark the only occasion I think that I've actually agreed with him! Should have noted the date and circled it in red on my calendar), that NYC has given up its voice in state and national politics by consistently voting overwhelmingly for Democrats. As a result, Democrats take them for granted when in office and Republicans don't bother to reach out.
Your analysis of the school funding situation sounds like one of these situations.
CG
We've had three terms of Republican Mayors and Republican Governors, and we're still getting hosed. We'll see about the SAS.
At the national level, New York was hosed through 12 years of Republican Presidents and Democratic Congresses (1981-92), six years of Democratic Presidents and Democratic Congresses (1977-80 and 1993 to 94) six years of a Democratic President and Republican Congress (1995 to 2000) and four years of a Republican President and a Republican Congress.
Any advice on which party to vote for to stope getting hosed would be appreciated.
See my response to Charles G.. Congress may be reluctant to provide NYC with federal funding because it anticipates - quite reasonably - that the city will end up piddling the money away rather than spending it on its intended purpose.
I've made that claim, although Selkirk might have done so too. In any event, I've come to doubt whether it's really true. Consider that there are many Sunbelt states that are as knee-jerk Republican as NYC is knee-jerk Democratic, yet they do just fine in terms of getting federal spending no matter which party's in office. I suspect that NYC's dismal history of squanderng federal money has made it difficult to get additional funding no matter the merit of the projects in question. Memories of the Beame Shuffle may persist in Washington.
"I have not seen any more recent data or studies that refute Moynihan's assertion."
You also have not been looking for any such data, so this comment is meaningless.
Really? You must know Stephen quite well to know how he has spent all his time since 1967.
You have no evidence to refute my comments. If you do, I'm all ears. As it is, per-pupil spending is fairly equal in most New York City schools and yet spending varies wildly.
If you want evidence, read "What No School Can Do" by James Traub in the New York Times Magazine on January 16, 2000.
Unlike filthy bigots like you, I actually cite my sources when I tell people they're wrong.
Actually, you were the one who out and out made a statement without bothering to check.
Yes, I did read the Traub piece. I remind you that the New York Times Magazine, while worth reading, is not scholarly literature, and quoting it does not replace scholarly research.
If you are interested in the subject, there are professional journals in education that you can consult.
You complain about ageism as bigotry, yet when given an opportunity to select and present scholarly evidence, you refuse to act as an adult would. You cannot have it both ways. You must decide what you want. That is your decision, not mine.
Why am I paying state taxes so that in New York State OUTSIDE New York City public school spending and employment can be off the charts relative to the national average? You have two different mindsets about schools for two different sets of people. None of these conservative think tanks EVER advocates lower school spending in districts where the majority of the children are White. Period. And I've written about these issues and dared them to do it. All I ever get back is a harrauph.
The correlation between spending and achievement is often weak, but it is not absent. Exeriments in schools have shown that when money is invested in additional tutoring help, counseling assistance, in a environment where enough money is spent to provide textbooks, access to computers and so on, graduation rates are higher and more students go to college or recognized vocational programs (I consider successful completion of a skilled trade - plumbing, electrical, tool and die making - to be as honorable an accomplishment as a college education, when the "master" title is attained and maintained. This involves years of study and practice).
I would argue for that. The best way is to privatize all schools. People would choose where it is best to spend their money. Those who cannot afford school would have the government pay for it, the same way the government buys food for those who can't afford it (food stamps).
Well, we've seen what Edison Schools tries to do. It doesn't make money (turns out economy of scale doesn't exist there the way it does in other industries), most of their schools (not all) perform at best average and often below average, and the taxpayers are not getting what they've been promised - but a few top officers and investors are taking home wads of cash.
Not so simple, is it?
I don't see how permanent contractors make any sense. I can understand contractors for temporary work, like a station renovation. The company does the work, and their equipment and employees move on when they're done. For something an agency does constantly, it seems to make sense to cut out the profit-taking middleman.
Sometimes the system works though. HBLR is on a DBOM (Design Build Operate Maintain) and that is working well. Would it have worked well directly under NJT? I don't know. NJT already has a light rail system in Newark, so it's not like it would have entered a new industry and would rather have an experienced company do it for them (another reason for permanent contractors).
School boards probably have more experience than Edison providing education.
Another reason why Edison schools might be performing poorly is because they were bad schools to begin with, and the school board thought that hiring the contractor would be a good idea to try to improve things.
Then there's what NYCT does with respect to escalator work - it hires contractors known to be incompetent, and gets an incompetent, years-too-long job in return.
It is bigotry.
yet when given an opportunity to select and present scholarly evidence
I'm supposed to go to a research library whenever I want to post on Subtalk? I've read a large number of your posts and yet I've never seen you present a single reference for any of your assertions, scholarly or otherwise.
you refuse to act as an adult would.
How is visiting a research library for every Subtalk post acting as an adult would?
You sir, are a PIECE OF SHIT, you have shown no evidence why I should respect you as a human being, or even as anything. Your comments are no different from those of people from days yore (and today too) who say that black people and women should not vote, like:
"I don't respect your opinion, you are just a lowly negro"
"I don't respect your opinion, you are just a hysterical woman"
"I don't respect your opinion, you are a mere peasant who owns no property"
"I don't respect your opinion, you are but a simple minor"
But it doesn't end with minors for you, does it? Not only do you attack me, and others, you've also attacked AEM7, who is 23. Where does it end for you? When you'll be 70, you'll decry people who are 50 for being "immature."
I have another quote, it's another type of -ism, but I follow it:
"I don't respect your opinion, you are an ignorant bigot"
When you can get a nationally recognized education for 2 or 3 or 4 kids at a cost of 8-10 grand per year it's an important consideration.
CG
That's right, NYC schools have a very bad image problem, one that may not be entirely deserved, but it's there. With a lot of suburban schools it's the opposite, their reputations may be better than justified.
My oldest is now entering a Catholic middle school with enormous teacher turnover, metal folding chairs because the school cannot afford to replace the furniture, no lunchroom, no gym, etc. And I have to pay for it over and above the taxes.
Most of the public school alternatives are worse than that, although in fairness my child did test into a "gifted" program but wanted to stay in the school with her friends. She is at that school to begin with because she entered elementary school in the prior fiscal crisis, when there were 35 kids in the kindergarten class in the school down the street, and no teaching materails.
Those outside are in no position to comment on the schools. Lots of parents we knew left, reluctantly, before elementary school, and middle school brought another frenzy and another exodus. And this is among parents with options. God help the children without them. At least they decided to tax us to death rather than crush the budget once again. But all the money will be going to pensions, not teachers or materials, in future years.
Either way, she'll get a Regents level education.
Most of my family (with the exception of my cousins who lived in the Upper East Side) grew up in the Catholic Schools. Our parents choose these schools because that's what they grew up with Haiti. IIRC, tuition for my youngest brother was $3000 for elementary school, and $5,500 for secondary school. With tuition increasing yearly, and with multiple children, one can see why younger parents prefer suburban schools. Private school tutition, IIRC starts around $10,000 is unafforable for most parents.
Public School kids learn more than their Catholic School counterparts, but the chance of graduating in Catholic Schools is a lot higher.
Interesting. This may be true. A neighbor of mine (who are black) a few houses down from me recently bought their house. He has some sort of management job in the subway system, and she is a conductor on the subway. They moved here from Hollis, where they rented.
(Interesting. This may be true. A neighbor of mine (who are black) a few houses down from me recently bought their house. He has some sort of management job in the subway system, and she is a conductor on the subway. They moved here from Hollis, where they rented.)
If the topic interests you, you might ask them why they made the choice they did. Why not Hollis or, for that matter, Brooklyn?
In college at Colgate, I lived in a house with a bunch of Puerto Rican and Dominican guys and gals from NYC. As far as I know, they're all gone. My roommate was from West Farms, but he never went back. He said that he didn't realize until he got out of the city how violent it was, and he wanted nothing to do with it. Another guy was walking down the street in West Harlem with his daughter, who pointed out a used crack vial and asked what it was. He was gone to the suburbs soon after. You ask these guys about fomer neighbors who went bad. They're all still here (or "upstate").
If this continues, many Black and Latino neighborhoods will continue to be crime and welfare ridden ghettos no matter how many Blacks and Latinos succeed, based on selective in and out-migration.
However, those that replace them in Queens or Brooklyn are not necesarily bad. Young couples of all races may move in, before they get more money. They don't necessarily have to be poor replacing someone that had more money. They will probably have less money than the people leaving, but you have to remember that the people leaving probably moved there when they didn't have quite as much money either. They saved, and moved on.
Gentrification also can happen. I'm not saying that an area like Bedford-Stuyvesant is becoming gentrified, but the other day when I was taking photos at the Kosciuszko Street station last week, I was amazed to see a representation of almost all races there waiting for the train. That wasn't like that a few years ago. I think it's great, the whole city is becoming more mixed, and I really think people are really starting to be able to live together better than anytime in the recent past.
You may be onto something about this sort of transition. It is possible that the city may see fewer and fewer families, relatively speaking that is, and more and more singles and couples without children. Indeed there's some anecdotal evidence that 9/11 accelerated this sort of turnover, especially in Lower Manhattan neighborhoods - Battery Park City in particular - that were most severely affected.
I see this transition as having both good and bad aspects as far as transit is concerned. It's good, in the sense that younger single people are probably more willing to use the subway than are people with children. It's bad, in the sense that a more transient population has less incentive to support new transit projects that probably won't open until they're long since off to the suburbs.
No community in Queens can be viewed any longer as a bastion of any white ethnic group. Even Maspeth and Glendale have seen a significant infusion of Hispanic and Asian residents.
Yeah, huh? And now on Broadway in Brooklyn you see beau coup more white faces than when I first started coming around there in the early `70s. Many more, which I attribute to the steady increase in the Russian, Polish and Eastern European population of the city. Demographics can surely surprise. Who knows? In twenty years, Broadway could start to look like Brighton Beach.
Sure, but by then Brighton Beach might be Little Dakar, Vietnam-town or who knows what?
This is a great city.
CG
People who don't ride the subway are missing out on the most convenient two-dollar world tours they can get.
Yeah, huh? And now on Broadway in Brooklyn you see beau coup more white faces than when I first started coming around there in the early `70s. Many more, which I attribute to the steady increase in the Russian, Polish and Eastern European population of the city. Demographics can surely surprise. Who knows? In twenty years, Broadway could start to look like Brighton Beach.
That's the basic "beggars can't be choosers" phenomenon. People (white, black, or otherwise) without money will always flock to the lowest-priced housing stock, thus populating neighborhoods and stabilizing/increasing property values without the evils of gentrification.
Eventually, however, these neighborhoods will become either minority or gentrified, as the white ethnics now living there move away to the suburbs or the Sunbelt. In fact, I'll bet that Maspeth, Glendale etc. have seen significant demographic changes in the past decade or so. As the 'hoods change, demand for transit service will increase.
By the way, by "Laurenton" did you mean "Laurelton?" If so, I believe that's already a minority area.
And they're wrong: residential property values also rise. This is well documented.
Perhaps this is true of projects that actually get built. It's not difficult, though, to see how some proposed projects that didn't get done would have had a negative impact on real estate values in the areas they were planned to go through.
Putting a trolley back on Germantown Av in Philly, for example, or in New York, making the Second Av Subway an elevated train.
Good point. In addition, values might suffer a bit if it's expected that the project will be under construction for a prolonged period.
There are basically two variations on the NIMBY theme:
1. The pseudo-NIMBY's want the service, but not the construction needed to make service a reality. (This is the basic motivation for the anti-SAS crowd.)
2. The true, die-hard NIMBY's object to the service and the construction. They don't actually oppose access to the rest of the city; they fear the rest of the city will have access to them. (This was the basic motivation of the anti-M31-extension crowd on York Avenue.)
1. The pseudo-NIMBY's want the service, but not the construction needed to make service a reality. (This is the basic motivation for the anti-SAS crowd.)
2. The true, die-hard NIMBY's object to the service and the construction. They don't actually oppose access to the rest of the city; they fear the rest of the city will have access to them. (This was the basic motivation of the anti-M31-extension crowd on York Avenue.)
Unfortunately, there is #3 -- those who do not, in reality, have any reason to object to anything, but know that given the city's history for things that absolutely have to get done to benefit the powerful, those who can act as obstructionists can cut a deal to be bought off. No one is going to buy people off to expand the subway.
Not true. You don't know the history of your agency. The 63rd Street extension involved a great deal of "buy-off" to get accomplished, even if the money did not necessarily go into a given corrupt person's pocket. The SAS will involve a fair amount of neighborhood concessions, some of which will amount to "buy-offs."
Of course the Port Authority was ready with quite a few handouts when it built AirTrain.
Isn't the plan to build most of the SAS via TBM rather than cut-and-cover at least in part a way of deflecting neighborhood opposition?
Yes it is, but TBM is also cheaper. I think you will have a reasonable accomodation of the neighborhood. What I'm talking about is making unreasonable demands as a means of getting paid off, literally, in cash grants either for individuals or for "non-profits" that provide "jobs."
No one is going to do that here. The powers that be would simply let the line die, with a "sauce for goose" smirk about liberals being hoisted on their own petard. The judges that generally allow NIMBY projects to last for years, killing projects later approved by delaying them, will either allow this to happen or sense the shifting political winds and slap the fake-NIMBYs down.
If I recall correctly, there was a proposal to literally pay off people living along the few residential blocks north of Ditmars that would be along the el structure if the N were extended to LGA.
That was my suggestion, actually. But paying off people on two blocks for being permanently next to an El is different than paying people off on 175 blocks for temporary construction impacts. I'd only pay off people who left, and turned their property over to the goverment.
CG
Once upon a time, bus route M31 operated as a shuttle along York Avenue, with its southern terminal at Lexington/59th for subway connections. As part of a major route restructuring, NYCT proposed to consolidate the 57th and 59th Street crosstowns by extending the M31 west across 57th Street to the far West Side.
Manhattan Community Board #8 (Upper East Side) initially endorsed the plan. However, when Boards #4 (West Midtown), #5 (Central Midtown), #6 (East Midtown), and #7 (Upper West Side) also endorsed the plan, Board #8 - dominated by taxi-commuters - instantly reversed itself and vigorously opposed the plan. ("Easy access to West Midtown would be nice, but not if West Midtown has easy access to us. Besides, we need our shuttle to Bloomingdales.")
As a compromise, NYCT implemented a hybrid plan which left the M31 alone but started a new "semi-crosstown" route, M58, running from York/72nd to 57th/Broadway via York Avenue and 57th Street. The basic travel pattern instantly became one of transfers between the M31 and the M57/M58. Based on this, the original M31 plan was later implemented, and the M31 ridership has grown like wildfire ever since.
CG
That argument ultimately failed because the OA is a subsidiary agency - effectively a contract carrier. The entire city is MTA territory, and thus both TA and OA territory.
Pig's version of the story is the only version I've ever heard until today.
Incidentally, the consolidation of the 59th Street and 57th Street crosstowns was implemented without the help of the M31 or M58. The M28 along 57th and the M103 along West End were merged into the M57, the M30 was cut short to 57th and 8th (it had previously run to 72nd and CPW), and the M72 was created as a useful 72nd Street crosstown (the M30 had previously been the closest approximation there was). The M58 was also born on this date, but it wasn't essential to the rest of the plan.
I don't know about a general rune, but property values soared in Lindenwold when the PATCO line was built with its terminal there.
Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of this study, and having been peripheral to my research of 40+/- years ago, I can't even say where a copy could be found, but the study must be relatively well known, because I've heard of it referred to elsewhere.
An important question in modern urban planning is what a transit extention would be mean in terms of related growth and the population in the target area. If the service if attractive and the area attractive to well-paid commuter, property values will go up guaranteed. If the transit stop is combined with high-density apartments, wider higheways and greatly increased traffic, neighbors on the periphery of this area could see their values drop.
There are so many variables now that I'm not sure you could make a single statement. When the Babylon Line (existing since 1865) was elevated in 1963 in Babylon Village nice old homes near the station took a dive, I suppose from people now in the shadow of the massive new elevated station. Many of these houses ended up being purchased by the village and torn down for parking.
However, in the '80s people began to see the walk-to-transit issue as more attractive than the proximity to train noise issue was a turn-off, and some fairly expensive condos were built literally next to the tracks east of the station.
So the answer is not so simple.
"If the transit stop is combined with high-density apartments, wider higheways and greatly increased traffic, neighbors on the periphery of this area could see their values drop."
From the highway and traffic, if that occurs, not from the high density housing. Often these days, the highway is already there, the negative effect on property values has already occurred, and the transit line encourages values to recover.
Or, having an EMU roll through a grade sepperated line through a town every 30 minutes likely bumps values up. A moaning diesel doing the same at grade level every 2 hours is likely to drop it.
The key is a system that's there when you need it, not there when you don't. Part of NJT's rationale for continued electrification as opposed to dual mode operation was that electrics are siginificantly quieter, thus residents aren't as opposed to higher frequencies, whereas to so with diesels would require sound barriers of some sort to go up.
I live about 1 mile from the Oyster Bay line, and can hear the trains going through all the time. I work across the street from the Lawrence train station, and am oblivious to the trains passing. It's no secret which line is which, or which I'd rather live next to , and a lot of people are like that.
Or, having an EMU roll through a grade sepperated line through a town every 30 minutes likely bumps values up. A moaning diesel doing the same at grade level every 2 hours is likely to drop it.
The key is a system that's there when you need it, not there when you don't. Part of NJT's rationale for continued electrification as opposed to dual mode operation was that electrics are siginificantly quieter, thus residents aren't as opposed to higher frequencies, whereas to so with diesels would require sound barriers of some sort to go up.
I live about 1 mile from the Oyster Bay line, and can hear the trains going through all the time. I work across the street from the Lawrence train station, and am oblivious to the trains passing. It's no secret which line is which, or which I'd rather live next to , and a lot of people are like that.
It'd be interesting to see the various demographics comparing the different Philadelphia neighborhoods, is West Philly doing better than the great Northeast, with it's decade's old fight against any transit improvement? Is South Philadelphia, with it's mediocre transit situation and BSS doing as well as West Philly? Has the decrease in R6 service on the Cynwyd branch actually hurt places out along Wynfield Ave?
The last one I actually know, about 3-4 months ago while looking for an apartment we looked at a place out on Wynfield Ave, right in front of the Wynfield Ave R6 stop, a massive high rise apartment. The place was kind of run down, and was too far to really be considered. However the guy that showed us the apartment said that his building used to be full when Septa ran a full schedule on the R6, but with it's loss, many people hadn't renewed their leases. I mean the R6 stop really was in the backyard of this place, however with only 3 or so trains into center city, and 3 or 4 back, plus a long walk up to City Line Ave for a bus, it just wasn't worth it. With more R6 service that place very easily could have been perfect, without it it's very likely that it could go under.
NYC invested in bringing transit back from a state of poor repair. This was far more important than any expansion. Obviously, you never appreciated it, but I'm glad the rest of New York did.
In Philly, there's been relatively little investment (but the Commuter tunnel finished in the 1980s and the renovation of the Market-Frankford line has been very good). The University of Pennsylvania took the lead and invested in its neighborhood.
The trolley lines and the MFL provided the critical and necessary prerequisites to this (meaning, property values are supported by their presence).
In New York, there is a parallel: look at what Columbia Univ. is doing around the 168th St area.
Copy and paste:
www.trainweb.org/phillynrhs/RPOTW030803.2.html
For photos and the test train in the new station.
http://www.trainweb.org/phillynrhs/RPOTW030803.html
http://www.trainweb.org/phillynrhs/RPOTW030803.3.html
http://www.trainweb.org/phillynrhs/RPOTW030803.2.html
Very nice indeed! Let this to be a practice for what to come durring the time they are rebuilding the elevated evl statuture on Market Streets!
Copy and paste:
www.trainweb.org/phillynrhs/RPOTW030803.2.html
For photos and the test train in the new station.
I called Al Scala, because he didn't have the courtesy to return my phone call in the first place. He was nonchalant but became arrogant when I challenged him on why 409 was held for an air conditioned train (151).
This issue isn't going to die (though I thought some of the passengers were in the tropical heat) until I get a satisfactory answer. It may take time, but I'll get one.
Michael
Washington, DC
Red Line Subway-------A or 1
Blue Line Light rail--B or 2
Green Line Light rail-C or 3
Gold Line Light rail--D or 4
Since they were built and completed in that order those are the assinged designations I've given to them. Not a bad idea if you want my opinion.
Since they were built and completed in that order those are the assinged designations I've given to them. Not a bad idea if you want my opinion. >>
Actually, the Blue Line was completed first--opened July 14 1990, while the Red Line began service January 30, 1993.
I think there was discussion at MTA of eventually having letters or numbers for the rail lines, also I think they were considering different letters (or numbers) for the Wilshire/Western and Hollywood/North Hollywood branches of the Red Line, even though internally both branches are the same line (802).
Can anyone clarify?
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Can anyone clarify?"
Using the dimension command in my CAD program I come with 5% = 2.8624052261 degrees. Thats with accuracy set at 15 places right of the decimal point. So 2.86 degrees is close enough.
Aren’t computer great.
John
Chuck Greene
Nothing as fancy as Solid Works, do an occasional house plan using Designcad. Have my own D size pin plotter.
John
Take care,
Chuck Greene
Besides doing house plans I also did shop drawings when I was building custom cabinets for a living.
I paid about $2,500.00 for it new back in the early 1990s. I would be lucky if I could get $100.00 for it today. You can’t even get pins for it any more, I have a work around for this problem. The plotter is so old that there are no 32 bit drivers so I can’t plot from a computer running Windows NT 4 of 2000. With $2,500.00 today one can get a entry level D size 300 DPI inkjet plotter.
John
If I ever get around to getting a new plotter, this is probably what I will get.
John
If you haven't learned about tangents, then it's delta y/delta x, meaning the change in vertical position between two ends of the slope, divided by the horizontal change.
If you're in a high school algebra class, you should know about tangents.
Also, R32 #3542-3543 was running today on the E (what a surprise! They both have knobs. Jamaica Yard must really be desperate).
I also saw a salad train of R-32GE's and R-38's (and I'm not sure but there may have been a pair of 32's in there too) running on the (A).
Also, R38 #4050 has knobs, running on the (A).
If this aint what you talkin about, then IDK. Yes, I have seen another track parallel to the HBLR ROW, and I've seen freight trains on it. I think it goes to Greenville. Sorry, but I got no other info.
The alternate access than through the PATH Cut at JSQ is via the National Docks Secondary originating at Greenville Yard.
Here are two relevent ETT diagrams
Also, what happened to the NYS&W's Edgewater Tunnel?
The River Line uses the former Erie Northern Branch/NYSW main to the old Erie Tunnels, thence to the National Docks Branch IIRC, as opposed to the old route that was usurped by the HBLRT (old NYWS&B tunnels, then via Weehawken and west side of Hoboken to NDB).
The route to the Passaic & Harsimus line (former PRR, parallel PATH running) has been open for decades; the River Line trains always had access to this.
PS. AFAIK, the part of the former River Line (now HBLRT) right-of-way that goes between Hoboken and Weehawken Tunnel is part of the former Erie Weehawken Branch.
I have never been to France and would appreciate any information any Subtalkers could provide about the route I need to travel. I suppose I could rent a car to get around, but I would sure like to check out the Paris metro while I'm over there. I'm trying to make keep the trip to a bare minimum of days, so I was wondering if I could use transit to get from the airport to my ex-wife's house. She has zero interest in public transit so she is no help to me (in more ways than one, but this isn't the place for that). So, I'll be landing at de Gaulle airport and I need to get to a town called Chailly en Brier (postal code for the town is 77930). She tells me she is nowhere near de Gaulle (actually she is very close to Orly, but apparenlty there are no flights between Orly and NY).
Any tips on making the land part of the trip via transit would be greatly appreciated.
Also, a consultation with an attorney familiar with these issues would be in order.
Click on "ENGLISH" in the upper right hand corner of the first screen.
www.ratp.fr/
Hit the "english" button in the upper right hand corner. You'll need to go to the Metro section of the site, but there is also an RER line in town, and the rail lines are what go out to the airports.
Thanks for posting that.
It's a very useful site. It integrates all public transit: Metro, RER, SNCF, LRV, and bus for the entire Ile de France region. All transit companys' schedules are integrated along with maps. It provides door-to-door routing without having to go through half a dozen different sites.
Makes one wonder why the MTA can't do anything like that. Then again, the MTA's NYCT can't even publish complete timetables.
If your purpose is to just pick up your son, you could rent a car and avoid going into Paris at all. The airport is northeast of the city and Chailly en Brière is about 60 km from Paris in a south-southeasterly direction. If you want to see Paris also, public transportation may be better.
There is good public transportation into Paris from Charles De Gaule Airport, so that should not be a problem. Like New York, Paris is a good city to just park your car and take public transportation once you arrive there. Bus and Metro maps are available and easy to understand. I am sure there is a commuter train or bus from Paris to Chailly en Brière, which you should be able to locate (both fare and schedules) on the internet before you go. Then you could use a taxi to get to your final destination. It is simpler, cheaper and more interesting than renting a car, which are highly taxed, as is gasoline.
If your son is old enough to read and write French, he could be your guide in Paris, an experience that should be enjoyable for both of you.
Tom
I don't look at pornography, but if I did, I would say that these pictures bring me more joy than porn ever could. Only a subway buff can understand this.
Oh yeah? 1689 wasn't so clean when Selkirk was done with it ;^)
Meanwhile Nancy was giving me the when-he-worked-for-the-TA-he-hated-it-but-now-he's-all-gooey spiel.:)
But we never did make it down there. It was a genuine thrill though getting to run an Arnine without the TA nonsense swirling around the cab. And Lou and Thurston were just great. If the TA had people like THEM working there, the trains would run on time and the attitudes of staff would be MUCH improved. Joining Branford was one of the SMARTEST things I've done in the last 30 years.
Robert
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
(2) 7 Av Express
All Times: 241st Street Bronx - Flatbush Avenue Brooklyn, local in Bronx and Brooklyn, Express in Manhattan
(3) 7 Av Express
All Times except nights: express stops in Manhattan and local stops in Brooklyn 148th Street, Manhattan - New Lots Avenue, Brooklyn
Nights: Lenox Shuttle(10:30pm-4:30am), MANHATTAN SERVICE ONLY, from 148th Street to 135th Street Manhattan, transfer to (2) at 135th Street from service to/from lower Manhattan, Brooklyn
<3> 7 Av Express/Bronx Local: Rush hours only(7:20-8:20am, 5:10-6:10) From Dyre Avenue Bronx, to New Lots Avenue Brooklyn, Local in Bronx and Brooklyn, Express in Manhattan
(4)Lexington Avenue Express/Local
All times except Nights: Woodlawn Bronx to Utica Avenue Brooklyn, express in Manhattan abd Brooklyn, local in Bronx(rush hours skips 138th Street in Bronx peak direction)
Nights(1:30-4:30) Woodlawn Bronx- New Lots Avenue Brooklyn local in Bronx, Manhattan and Brooklyn
(Brooklyn local from 11:30-5:30)
<4> Lexington Avenue Express/Jerome Express(TRIAL RUN)
Rush Hours only(7:15-7:45am, 5:10-5:40pm)
from New Lots Avenue Brooklyn to Woodlawn Bronx
express in Bronx(peak) Manhattan and Brooklyn
(5) Lexington Avenue Express/Bronx Local/Express
Middays, Evenings, Weekends: Dyre Avenue Bronx, South Ferry Manhattan
express in Manhattan, local in Bronx
Rush Hours: Dyre Avenue Bronx, South Ferry Manhattan or Flatbush Avenue Brooklyn
express in Bronx(peak 6:00-10:00am, 3:00-7:00pm) Manhattan, and Brooklyn
Nights: Dyre Avenue Shuttle (10:30-4:30 am weekdays, 10:00pm-6:00am weekends) BRONX SERVICE ONLY from Dyre Avenue to E 180th Street Bronx local, transfer to (2) for service to/from Manhattan
<5> Lexington Avenue Express/White Plains Road Thru Express
Rush Hours only: (6:15-9:15am, 3:20-6:20pm) From 241st Street Bronx to South Ferry Manhattan, or New Lots Avenue Brooklyn
Express in Bronx(peak),Manhattan,and Brooklyn
(6) Lexington Avenue Local
All times except nights from 177th Street-Parkchester or Pelham Bay Park Bronx to Brooklyn Bridge Manhattan local
Nights: Pelham Bay Park Bronx to South Ferry Manhattan local in Bronx and Manhattan
<6> Lexington Avenue Local/Pelham Express
Middays, Rush Hours, and Weekday Evenings until 9:00: Pelham Bay Park Bronx, Brooklyn Bridge Manhattan
express in Bronx(peak 6:10-12:30 to Manhattan, 12:10-9:10 from Manhattan)
(7) Flushing Local
All Times from Times Square Manhattan, to Main Street Queens
<7> Flushing Express
Middays, Rush Hours, and weekdays evenings until 10:30 pm from Times Square Manhattan to Main Street Queens(6:00-12:30 to Manhattan, 1:10 -10:45 from Manhattan)
(8) Westchester Avenue local (2,5,6 lines connector)
All times
From Southern Blvd - Whitlock Avenue Bronx
(9) Broadway/7 Av local/skip stop
Rush Hours only: from South Ferry Manhattan to 242nd Street Bronx, skip stop
(10) 42nd Street local
all times
from Times Square(7 Av) to 2 Avenue Manhattan
Thankfully I am not one of them. I am nutty enough.
The <4> is a trial(for about 3 months, notice it doesn't run that often)
the (8) is the 2,5 and 6 line connector and the (10) is the 42nd Street shuttle extended to connect to the SAS
other than that, nothing else is out of place
10 - how would you have a tunnel straight thru the mezzanine at GC, I do think it sould be extended to at least the mezzanine at GC instead of walk a long corridor.
JONN
I think a transfer passageway would be better than a connecting line (which I don't even think is physically possible from 2 3-track lines) for the 2/5 and 6 in the Bronx.
The diamond 3 is a nice idea!
How about some more hours on the peak express in the PM say it ends at 8pm. Hmm the idea of it starting from New Lots isn't bad but then the confusion may set in.
(10) 42nd Street local
all times
from Times Square(7 Av) to 2 Avenue Manhattan
I like this idea and if the SAS were to be built, people won't have to take the M42 & M104 to transfer there.
And this is a thing that just entered my mind (such as it is) to ask about...
I recently got a new credit card, a new first for us here at the abbey... but I am certain that I cannot remember my pin number..
Do you need your pin number to use the MVM? I certainly haven't needed it any place else, but I have never tried the cash machine.
Elias
Chuck Greene
Okay, so ATM's usually don't have LCD's, but it sounds better than
The CRT tube at the ATM machine prompted me to enter my PIN number.
Chuck Greene
No, the thread is completely unique :)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Incidentally, if you ever are asked for a credit card PIN and you enter it, you will be charged cash advance fees.
I don't know any of my credit cards' PINs and I don't want to know them. Cash advances are expensive.
Not necessarily... depends on how the card is set up. I have a VISA account of long standing (20+ years) with a credit union and that VISA card doubles as my ATM card, although it is not a VISA check card. Depending on the menu selection I make after entering my PIN, I can (among other choices) either withdraw funds from one of my accounts or obtain a cash advance; only if I select a cash advance will I be charged those fees.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Tell me about it, online banking I accidentally transferred from Credit to savings instead of Checking to savings, damned words all look the same, even though the money was only out of there for 30 seconds it still cost me $3.
Nor do I, but I've a horrible feeling I'm going to have to.
The credit card companies here in the UK are starting talking about something called 'chip and pin'.
The chip bit seems to be already pretty well in place. My credit cards have had a chip in them for a year or more now, and many (most?) retailers now read the chip (by dropping the card into a slot on top of the reader) in preference to swiping the magnetic stripe.
The pin bit means that we are going to have to enter a pin instead of (as well as?) signing the slip. I do not know how that is going to work in places like restaurants; perhaps the server will have to bring a portable reader/keypad to your table.
Wall Street on the 4/5 is one of three stations I'm aware of that have an MVM inside fare control. What are the two others? (Or are there more than two? It's quite possible.)
I'm not going to tell you about the other two until others have a chance to answer. Believe it or not, a few SubTalkers might possibly be asleep right now! Speaking of which, my bed is calling.
If you've noticed, were there alot of people that were hanging out on the station? Near the turnstiles? Chances are they are the ones who knocked out the MVM's. Chances are they were probably selling swipes at the turnstiles. They are the type that will allow you to get on the subway for $1 right away. No waiting on line to get a card.
I'll know better next time and avoid the "swipers"
Chuck Greene
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Unless you are looking closely, (Someone in the booth or a cop keeping an eye out) it'll look like someone just taking a look at the machine. The MVM won't regiater as OOS until someone tries to use the machine and can't.
Put the guys out of business quickly
NOTHING
ie: S/A are useless to deter crime
The answer is add more machines at these stations, encourage more uses to buy with thier credit card. Put up signs where of where they could buy metrocards at third part retailer both in the station and at hotels.
Reducing S/A needs to be offset with a smaller rise in MVM maintainers
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
It is possible that SEPTA is saying, "We can't get parts; we don't want to continue supporting maintenance of an odd vehicle type; it's cheaper and easier to run a bus at this point."
I'm not saying I agree, or that this in fact is their argument (I'm really just speculating).
The first instance I personally know of was the discontinuance of the 47 trolley line, which was "temporarily" suspended for reconstruction around Reading Depot (IIRC). Track was maintained and wire maintained on both sides of the construction area, but as time went on and pressure lessened for restoration, they found that they could abandon the line completely. Unless someone can show me an exception, every trolley abandonment since 1958 (except maybe 6-Ogontz Ave.) was accomplished by first suspending line or one or other good or bad pretext.
Why do it this way? First, it's been done this way for decades, so, as I say, there's a sort of internal culture to it. But also, consider that it's a way to bypass the political give and take of a straightforward abandonment procedure in a populous not too amenable to losing electric service.
As to the TTs themselves, they are something of an anomoly in current transit planning. The BMT was a proponent of the "All-4" concept (rapid transit, trolley-trolley coach-bus). In this theory, TTs were a precursor to trolley lines--when a service was too well patronized for gas buses but didn't justify the capital expenditure of a trolley line for the near future, a TT was a possibility. If a rail trolley was later indicated, the power distribution system would already be in place.
Later, the theory went the opposite way, TTs were a clean, flexible substitute for an abandoned rail line that allowed a company to trade on the power distribution infrastructure yet dump rail maintenance. Johnstown, PA did this. I think Dayton, OH is another example.
SEPTA would undoubtedly like to dump the TTs for the reasons you cite--parts are harder to come by, it is a oddball fleet, and so on. Add to that, unlike buses, heavy rail and light rail, there is not much of a constituency--industrial, political, or planning--for TTs.
Still, I'm not sure, with out current concerns about clear air and energy independence, that an existing TT system should be allowed to disappear so casually.
Chuck Greene
"FTC is SEPTA's busiest transportation center with more than 50,000 daily riders traveling through the station on 15 bus routes, a trackless trolley route (with buses operating temporarily in place of trolleys) and the El."
(My emphasis) So they're still talking the talk...
Chuck Greene
Route 66 will be back to Trackless Trolleys in about 6 months.
A lot has to do with the rebuilding of the "head-house" at Bridge St.
Apparently, the structure at Pratt St. will be demolished (no big loss).So hang on to your twin poles, gang, there coming back!
They will have to drag the TT's back from Midvale, I guess.
Chuck Greene
Yes, they are called trolley buses. They are also called trackless trolleys.
They were called trackless trolleys when Public Service Coordinated Transport ran them between Camden and Haddonfield when I was a kid.
Chuck Greene
I thank TT was first, to differentiate them from rail trolleys.
The current moribund state of the TT, at least in urban planning circles is perhaps signalled by the fact that no new term has been floated to describe the vehicles or system. It's popular to come up with new phrases to put a modern spin on concepts: e.g., light rail for trolley or tram; metro or heavy rail for subway; bus rapid transit for limited busway or exclusive bus lane.
One San Diego group has even had the chutzpah to style an LRV-designed but fossil-fuel powered rubber-tired bus as a "Flex-Trolley." No joke. How times change.
Chuck Greene
Chuck
Bob
Chuck Greene
Don't have AOL Instant Messenger? Download it free here at www.aim.com
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
While in the timed area of the 60 St tube, the speed limit is 45mph. Once you have passed the last timer, you can wrap it up and if you're really lucky get up to about 54. Anyone going faster than that was speeding in the GT section.
Is this the same 60th street tube? Theres barely any signals in that tunnel. So you can go as fast as you can as long as you don't overshoot the station.
Even at overspeed, rest assured, the balls will slap you upside the head if you do something stupid, or are dead. ESPECIALLY NOW since wrapping it CANNOT result in sufficient "ramming speed" ... the balls (shunt) were given the post-op shemale number after the WillyB ... THAT was a downgrade too. As someone else said, "not to fret - this train AIN'T GOT NO BALLS." ... like Homeland security, ain't nothing orb-shaped allowed to be in the presence of Red blooded Americans - after all, them towelhead churches have orbs on top. HMMMMmmmmm. :-\
... and "gunning it" once clear of the ST's ensures that you'll make it all the way back UP the tunnel.
*MEANT* to say GT's ... don't wanna be inaccurate ... folks WITH the show know that a GT and an ST really means the same thing, just different rule numbers - if you hit it, makes no difference. :)
Clearly, going uphill, speed is your friend...
And don't mind MY perspective, I did Arnines ... you were often (with so many dead motors, and their "dynamic" braking ability was NEVER CONNECTED, thus USELESS) at a loss to be threatened by the timers clearing on a DOWNGRADE ... but upgrades were downright SCARY ... like the MannyB out of DeKalb or Grand ... if you didn't chase the timers headed up, you'd STALL and require a similar carset to be worked around all the OTHER traffic to bone up for a 20 car luxury lay and sock it to ya until you got over the hump ... heh. (note: NO mention of tripcocks, anglecocks or "playing with a handle")
Those of us who RAN the prewar cars on the subways though were scared QWAPLESS of "losing momentum" on the rails - and our motor instructors TAUGHT us that "environmentalists COAST for GOD" ... applying power was an ANATHEMA in them "energy crisis" times ... before the REAL one hit. :(
But yeah, the system is OVER-engineered to dump a perfectly good train for no reason at all. Guy DIED, motors were overpowered, brake blending was INSUFFICIENT, signalling TOO close together, but everyone who got hired up SINCE has to deal with beakies with frigging radar guns. :(
Like I've said too often, I was white boy on the subway - and derided because I was a member of the "Rank and File" faction of TWU along with my buddies who'd come to my house and proudly burn a ceremonial watermelon on my front lawn ... they said it then, and they've proved it now ... an ORANGUTAN could sit in the cab and pull levers for all the respect those of us who didn't fall asleep watching our IRON are getting out of the MTA these days. Once upon a time, what I did wasn't just SKILLED labor, it was LICENSED labor ... a DIPLOMA for the trade. And dealing with that steel pounding ON steel, I felt somewhat respected, even if my wigs dissed me and my partners. Today, I'd be VIOLENT over the emasculation of conductors and motorpeople to the charade of "management."
Sorry for the lecture, but you've either got to be DEAD or stupid to run a tripper THESE days - and with WD's and blind stops added on top of all the rest of the insults to motorpeople, words CANNOT describe how GRATEFUL I am to NOT be part of that hosejob the MTA's hosting lately. I certainly wouldn't be inspired to show my professional extremes as well as expertise in FIXING a bad order car with a minor, doesn't have to be bad-ordered, problem. Yawn, I'll wait for a CI.
Damned shame it is ... even in my most extreme "gotta make time" situations, I *never* thought of doing something stupid, like hitting an interlock past 10 MPH, or taking a sharp curve over 20 or whatever the signs said ... but on a STRAIGHTAWAY, or tenth car PAST the curve, I knew what those R/10 signs meant, and WRAPPED IT every chance I got.
Now ... since this had a BVE flavor, one of the things that amuses me to no END is you can run reds with no penalty, but accidentally DUMP the precious, and you rot for 5 minutes of delay. Not real at all - at least on the Arnines, you could move again in ten seconds or less. And changing ends for a relay meant simply, center the puppy, handle out and WALK. Train retained the charge until you got to the other end. Every wonder why I was only too happy to do Arnine duty? That ME-23 saved your STONES. Arrive late, as long as you relayed on time for the outbound and did your starting lights on time, you were ON TIME as far as the TMO went. INBOUND didn't get written up unless you RELAYED late. :)
Northbound was green/green on the PM shift, and green/yellow going back. Wonder why I was obsessed with my paddles? I got to work them puppies for a living. :)
Once again, sorry for putting on the "official" hat that day, it was the only way I ever played with trains, straight and narrow, BY the book. The TA way ... only way I knew. Made Unca Lou nertz it did. :)
Then there are the railfans and foamers who'd go ga-ga if the lead motor didn't have headlights.:) That was my exact reaction when the last prewar A train I ever rode on pulled into 42nd St. one Saturday morning in January of 1970. When I saw the absence of headlights, I said, "Oh, goody!" out loud.
I wonder how many others have run 1689 at Branford who also ran those cars for a living. Not too many, I bet.:)
Why did they pick the letter Q (--.-)? Are there meanings for sounding the letters A through P on the horn?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Now see, see why I always respect Mr. Greenberger? It's very rare, I hardly ever see an equivalent statement on any boards. Or to utilize a certain vernacular...dis brother is a righteous dude.
Now see, see why I always respect Mr. Greenberger? It's very rare, I hardly ever see an equivalent statement on any boards. Or to utilize a certain vernacular...dis brother is a righteous dude.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
And while the most recent releases are slick and all, they ARE slower than earlier BVE routes because of all the added objects. On an older machine, the stutter of some of the newer routes as the CPU gets overloaded with drawing is noticeable and frame rates drop precipitously on all but the newest of machines.
I think Ed Yee's work is HIGHLY commendable for its time and I don't appreciate the nit-picking. Same goes for the fine work that Bob Marrero and Orin took upon themselves earlier in BVE's history. They may have been "basic" but they were real slick when they were first released.
#3 West End Jeff
Ain't that the truth. Even still using rotary phones, in some locations.
Peace,
ANDEE
1)Timers: Signals are timed to change to green if you reach them at no more than the allowed speed limit. Otherwise you will be passing a red signal, which will activate the tripper and stop your train.
2) Wheel detectors
3) Beakies with radar guns, they're not just for cops behind that billboard anymore. :)
:0)
What's sad though is back in the 70's, when I'd eat delays due to morons holding doors, or having to rot while my conductor went to car 9 and shoved a balky one shut to appease the indication fairy, it would be *ME* that would get yelled at. So like any other motorman, I'd crank it and hold it and charge the timers trying to get back those couple of minutes any chance or way I could just to not get yelled at when I got to the terminal. The thought of getting "gunned" along the way trying to make time is unappealing to me if I wasn't operating unsafely, but above the GT 25's in my face for no good reason. Back then, we didn't have speedos, we played by ear. And we knew what was safe and what wasn't, and never took risks.
But trains COULD go faster than posted speed safely in a lot of areas and that was where you could make time if you were "tardy" ... maybe one of these days, TWU can play candid camera at headquarters. Nah, they ain't got the balz.
I wonder if there's any movie footage anywhere of a train of R-1/9s slowing to a stop where the conductor is plainly seen climbing up and assuming the position. You can see him in The Wrong Man, but he's already on the step plates.
Dunno of any movies showing the procedure - I suppose the blue zoot suit dance wasn't terribly interesting to Hollyweird. :)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
#3 West End Jeff
Jimmy :0
Jimmy
Go here:
http://copper.takiweb.com/~ntwrkguy/bvesite/
and for assistance in making this FREE simulator work, go here:
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/
Enjoy! (and you WILL)
One of the museums that saved some of the CA&E cars is Trolleyville, located in Olmstead Township, Ohio. It operates through a well-maintained trailer park. Recently, they were notified that their operation had to move by the year 2006. They have about 40 cars in their collection. They are actively seeking a new location to display and operate their cars. Fortunately, the city of Cleveland is quite interested in building a historic trolley line in the downtown area, so there is a good possibility of at least some Trolleyville’s cars operated there.
The Wright Brothers flew their first powered airplane in 1903. But just a year prior to that, the John Stephenson Company built handsome interurban car #36 for one of the CA&E’s predecessors. In 1906, the Niles Car and Manufacturing Company produced another interurban, #303, also for a CA&E predecessor. As good luck would have it, both cars were saved and restored for operation by Trolleyville. They were used fairly regularly in museum operations there.
But through another stroke of good luck, these two cars now have a special place in electric traction history. Last weekend, on July 26 and 27, they were used in regular service on the Waterfront Line of the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority, to test the feasibility of using historic cars in regular service and to judge the public’s reaction to them. Hearing that this was to happen, I flew to Cleveland to witness this event. Waiting in Cleveland Union Terminal, the two magnificent giant cars, operating in multiple unit, rumbled into the terminal, interurban horn sounding, motor gears grinding and air brakes hissing. It was a sight to behold! Never before had I been on a true interurban car, so this was a special moment for me. But to think that #36 was built before the first powered airplane flight, and I then had to take a jet airplane to ride this car a century later, was genuinely a once-in-a-lifetime experience. The cars were restored quite well. The first round trip was made successfully, but during the second outbound trip, it was necessary to drop #36 because of a minor problem (I guess at 101 years of age, anyone or anything could be expected to develop a problem or two). #36 was then taken to Cleveland Union Terminal where it was on open display for the remainder of the weekend.
#303 was then the sole performer. While the Saturday schedule was somewhat erratic, on Sunday #303 ran flawlessly on a very tight regularly-spaced schedule between CUT and the end of the Waterfront Line as a nonstop express. Here was a true historic interurban operating on the same tracks and schedule as newer trolleys.
One can only wish the best of luck to the projected historic transit loop. It seems ironic that dozens of cities in the USA have chosen to return trolleys to their cities, while the two largest, Chicago and New York, continue to ignore this viable means of public transportation.... Imagine a historic trolley route on the abandoned High Line, running from Javits Center over the High Line, then on the the streets in the downtown area past the World Trade Center site right to South Ferry. What a practical line and major tourist attraction that would be, and you wouldn’t need to build a large bus terminal near the WTC, as passengers could utilize the trolleys frm the midtown area, where there are already large bus parking lots. But an operation like this is too practical and common sense for the City of New York - even though dozens of other cities have returned trolleys to their transit systems.
New York was one of the epicenters of the National City Lines tragedy, and one of the first cities to actually use buses (on 5th Avenue) without NCL prodding—they certainly would not want to admit that they were wrong by reintroducing LRT, would they.
Considering how important real estate value is in the metropolitan area, the people living/working in and around the existing High Line will file so many lawsuits your grandchildren will witness their resolutions. Never mind that a midtown-to-south ferry route might actually make sense in bringing in tourists (though it will bypass other tourist destinations in lower Manhattan, like City Hall and the NYSE).
I like your idea, Joe. However, it seems that the locals want the High Line demolished and the land sold off, while others want it turned into an elevated trail. Having rail traffic again would bring an even greater battle. As I understand it, some parts of the line have been built over already.
"Two Directions Possible for old NYC Rail Line"
Convert to an Elevated Trail or Demolish?
USA Today - Tuesday (7/29/03)
By Martha T. Moore, USA TODAY 7/29/03
"NEW YORK — Like a quiet green river, weed-covered railroad tracks run through Manhattan, hidden in plain sight 20 feet above the city's clogged avenues.
The High Line, an abandoned freight rail line in New York City's west side, is being considered for a park or demolition.
The 1.5-mile High Line freight tracks run on a viaduct between converted warehouses. It's a remnant of New York's industrial past that is now at the center of a debate about the future of urban redevelopment.
Property owners in the shadow of the elevated High Line want to tear it down to add marketable space in neighborhoods that have gone from gritty to chic.
A group of urban planners and artists wants to turn the High Line into a rails-to-trails pathway. It would be the only such urban elevated trail in the 12,000 miles of rail tracks around the country that have been converted to trails."
-----
The complete article is online at:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-07-28-highline_x.htm
Disgusting, IMHO. The tracks ought to have still been in service; not only that, but St. John’s Terminal ought to have been retained too and the whole shebang converted into a diesel terminal for passenger trains (Amtrak, Metro-North, even NJ Transit if the North River tunnels were properly ventilated, as a proper completion of the Aldene Plan that destroyed the CNJ Main Line).
A correction on the CA&E: All passenger service was abandoned at 12:15 p.m. on July 3, 1957, leaving commuters in downtown Chicago to fend for themselves. The Illinois Commerce Commission had just approved the CA&E's abandonment petition at that moment, and the CA&E just walked away. Even then, direct service to the Loop had been cut back in 1953 to Forest Park, when the CTA Garfield Park El was abandoned due to Expressway construction. The CA&E did operate some freight service up until 1963, when it was totally abandoned.
Also, one final note: The Trolleyville Museum in Olmstead Falls is now closed, but there are plans to open it up sometime next year for a trolley meet and Grand Finale for the museum. I tried getting information from the museum, but they're not answering any e-mails at this time.
Not quite correct. The original statement, that the CA&E was abandoned in 1961, was essentially correct. Passenger service was *suspended* in 1957, in theory temporarily. (The CA&E had no intention of reinstituting service, though - most trainmen were fired within a week.) Freight service continued until 1959, when that too was "suspended." Final permission to abandon the line was given in 1961 (if I remember correctly) and the entire railroad, including track and equipment, was sold (mostly for scrap) in 1962. You're probably thinking of the North Shore, which was abandoned in 1963.
Frank Hicks
Nice write up Joe. BTW I still have one of your traction annual that I'm listed in.
http://hometown.aol.com/awnicholls/CAER/main.htm
http://206.103.49.193/cae/cae.htm
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"People feel like there's nothing but order everywhere, and so they love to be a part of just one thing that nobody was expecting."
Because I'm goofy sometimes.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Cell phones would do the job just as well. You have an inferior solution looking for a problem.
Tom
Hardly. Cell phones do not work underground, and even if you were in an area with service, everyone would be using up their monthly minutes with every call. For the use we are desribing, the radios are MUCH better.
Cell phones are more popular than the radio and have a greater range when outdoors. The radios are still obstructed underground.
If you are on a subway train in a station, or even between stations, there is a clear line of sight usually between the first and last cars. The radios should have no problem communicating. If you are more then 2 miles away from your railfan buddies, then you deserve to be ditched.
For example Channel 5, sub-code 5.
From what I have heard on those radios (I have 2 of them) there is not much usage (at least not up by me). I guess they will take longer to become as popular as CB radios did years ago.
Cool car. Does it have a big V-8?
Well, of course PE should never have been removed, but LA was hypnotized more than other cities by the “freeway” concept about five decades ago. Of course, they paid for it in frequent smog. Now look at all the dough they are spending in order to bring a semblance of PE back so that people can actually move around the city…
BTW, nice pic of that center-door interurban. A Brill by any chance? There is an ex-Red Arrow (Philadelphia) Brill car operating up in Steamtown that has a similar configuration.
The E train currently runs more TPH then the F, so with that in mind and the G running full 8 car trains, here is what I propose.
E Line-Between 6:30am and 12:00am: 179 Street to World Trade Center, via. Hillside Avenue Express, Queens Blvd Express, 8th Avenue Local.
-Between 12:00am-6:30am: 179 Street to World Trade Center via, Hillside, Queens Blvd, 8th Avenue Local.
F Line-All Times: Jamaica Center to Coney Island, via Queens Blvd Express, 6th Avenue Local, Culver Local/Express Past Church Avenue during the am and pm rush.
V Line-Operates only between 6:30am and 12:00am: All Times: 179 Street to 2nd Avenue via. Hillside, Queens Blvd, 6th Avenue Local.
G Line-Between 6:30am and 10:00pm Operates Between Church Avenue and Court Square, Crosstown Local, Northern Culver Local: Between 10:00pm and 6:30am-71st Avenue to Church Avenue via Queens Blvd, Crosstown Locals.
R Line-Same As Current.
Now why did I do this?
1. 179 Street has enough room to easily relay the E and V trains.
2. Jamaica Center was always better meant for the F trains. The V being local the entire route force the E to be a Hillside Express once again and all the F to be the Full Queens Boulevard Express at all times.
3. The Surplus cars allows the G to be 8 75ft Cars plus extend its route to Church Avenue and 71st Avenue. I could send the G to Jamaica Center All Times, but the F line needs both tracks dedicated to it during the rush.
You cannot deny direct service to Manhattan to passengers boarding at F local stations in Brooklyn. At local stations south of 7th Avenue, passengers would have to wait for a G (which has much longer headways than the F), get off at 7th, and wait there for an F. At local stations north of 7th Avenue, the F would be inaccessible entirely (you've seen the condition of Bergen lower; it's not a usable station) -- passengers would have to stay on the G to Hoyt and cross over for the A or C, and you know as well as anyone else how unpleasant and time-consuming it can be to cross over at Hoyt. Those who need the F would then have to transfer again at Jay. Many passengers would end up spending more time waiting than riding -- all so that the passengers who live further out can save three or four minutes. Not worth it.
Aside from the Crosstown line proper, there is currently one station in the system that does not have direct service to Manhattan, at least during rush hours: Park Place on the Franklin shuttle, hardly a high-ridership station. (And it, at least, has single-transfer access to four major Manhattan trunk lines, soon five.)
There's a reason express service on that line only lasted nine years, and it's a good reason. If another service to Manhattan, like the V, provides local service, then the F can run express (or, alternatively, the F can stay on the local while the V provides the new express service), but the G cannot be the only local.
Well, actually, I had seen the notices in the newspapers. In that small-fonted "legal notice" area of the papers, including NY Daily News and Newsday. Where the MTA had listed proposals for funding for LIRR projects. I guess I'm talking at least five years ago. Even though it's fairly close to Jamaica Station I have always hoped to see Union Hall Street opened again. What the hell, there should be planning to reopen Bellaire again too. The Jamaica Avenue corridor from the city line to Jamaica hasn't seen any large civic improvements for many years. It puzzles me how those in-city commuter stations aren't bigger catalysts for the neighborhoods.
avid
1. Hempstead Branch.
2. Naw, not many at all. I think it was down to a couple of rush hour trains each way. This was around 1976. I recall the trip clearly. The station was bare but it was interesting to climb the narrow stairs in the small entrance building up to the platform. And it was wintertime so when I caught the train, before six p.m., it was dark. Very nice, uh, "vibes" there, to be on that platform in the middle of Jamaica. Echoes of Jamaicas' glory days. And the el was running then too so the whole effect was simply splended. I've always had a weak spot for those Queens Mainline stations anyway.
Well it does have better service. But it's not well situated to the main Jamaica Avenue shopping core. That would be the major reason for reopening the station. Although even I will admit it's unclear who the major users would be. If it was just for the Hempstead Branch that would limit its usefulness. But maybe there could be trains from other branches stopping there, say, at least every half hour. There are enough trains passing by for that level of service although I have little information on how the other branches would enable U.H.S. service. (As far as switching over to the station etc.)
Would riders be willing to come in from Mineola, Bethpage, Wyandanch etc. to shop on Jamaica Avenue? Maybe, but it would mean Jamaica Avenue would have to be a REALLY good destination to get too. It might not look very feasible today but down the road it could work. Jamaica needs something besides AirTrain to keep growing strong.
Also I haven't been on the DC subway in 8 years, so how does the fare collection work (I am from NYC).
All I remember they had paper fare cards with a stripe and your total amount on the back (updated each time the card went through the turnstile). Also I remember bus-subway transfers and those really weird turnstiles that take your card and return it to you once you go through the turnstile. They still have those turnstiles?
The WMATA fare collection mechanism is still the same as it has always been, although the fares have gone up recently. I'll let the DC folks comment more on that system; although I have ridden all of it, some parts I've only been on once. The ride across the Potomac is quite nice.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here's an itinerary that will give you an interesting look at many WAMATA lines. If you have three hours this is possible:
From Union Station take a Red Line train towards Silver Spring and Glenmont. Get off at Fort Totten. The Red Line (upper) Metro platform is in between the old B&O Mainline (now Amtrak) tracks. If you wait there's a good chance that a train will go through (Capital Limited passes at about 3:00 PM, I believe). Then go downstairs and take Green Line towards Greenbelt - you will be travelling alongside the CSX (nee B&O) for a while and also some interesting railfan sites, particularly at the last stop (Greenbelt) where the MARC station is adjacent. Take the Green Line back into DC but continue past Fort Totten all the way to Gallery Place. Get off and take a Yellow Line train (begins there) to the other end (Huntington), where you will cross the Potomac on a neat bridge into VA and then be next to Amtrak's ROW (former RF&P) at Alexandria. Return on the same line but switch to the Blue Line at Pentagon or Pentagon City and take that back into downtown DC - this time going under the Potomac in a deep tunnel.
Pentagon City, BTW, is a decent mall that offers the usual necessary amenties you will need when you stop - restrooms, food court, etc.
The all day pass was raised to $6, I believe, after the latest fare increase.
Ahh, Pentagon City, your family five fingered discount mall. : ) My fiancee is a store manager at children's store at the mall and it seems the merchandise develops legs and walks out.
I suggest getting an ALL DAY Pass with is $6 dollars now because of fare increase last month.
Metrorail to Metrobus — Get a free transfer when you enter the Metrorail station. It’s worth 85¢ off your bus fare when you show to bus driver. (from wmata.com)
How difficult is it to park and ride at the MBTA Blue Line stations at Wonderland and Beachmont? Specifically, if I arrive after 10 AM will all spaces be taken? According to the MBTA website there is no parking lot at Revere Beach - any street parking there?
Wonderland- You should be able to find parking here all year round at any time. Besides the T lots, there is (as mentioned by MBTA Vet) a large lot across 1A at the dog track (Wonderland) and two private lots on the beachside that only fill up once in a great while.
Revere Beach- All parking in this area is short term (2 hr?) metered and may or may not be enforced daily.
Beachmont has a T lot which may have some spots after 10a in August.
Suffolk Downs has a ton of free street parking which usually is taken by 8a in the summer, 6:30a during the rest of the year. There is also a small T lot which fills up after. The free street parking is in East Boston only, Revere will ticket and tow. Look for the city line!
Orient Heights T lot usually has a couple of dozen spaces left in the summer, not in the fall. This has the added advantage of being next to the yard. And at 10a, you'll get to see some pull-backs, coming off the road after the rush.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
#3 West End Jeff
Aside from the fact that the system did collapse in the 1980s, what effect would one car class over another, almost identical class have on that event?
Is Kiley highly regarded for his work in New York?
BBC article
World Report article
Telegraph article
When it leaves W4, it takes a seldom-used switch track and transfers to the 8th Ave (A/C) line just south of W4, which then re-connects with the F tracks coming out of the Rutgers St. tunnel just before Jay St/Borough Hall in Brooklyn.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
I went to see the progress of the Swing, and I was taken aback at what I saw. First off, the block between Bridge and Pratt sts was DRENCHED IN SUNLIGHT! The el structure was demolished, only the part covering the intersection of Bridge, Bustleton and Frankford Avenue still remaining. I think that will be gone but not immediately.
Second, I saw a test train going in and out the new station, testing switches, clearences and signals. In addition, I see the workmen stating the process of last minute preparations for tommorow`s opening.
After seeing this terminal all of my life in its original form, it will take a lot of getting used to the new sight at the FTC. I will be there tommorrow to check out the terminal on its first rush hour.
Chuck Greene
Thanks.
Chuck Greene
December 3 - January 27, 2004 filing Signal Maintainer
January 7 - 27, 2004 filing Structure Maintainer, Group C
Track Equipment Maintainer
February 4 - March 23, 2004 filing Transit Electrical Helper
March 3 - 23, 2004 filing Collecting Agent
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I took mine with a 50# Block of Salt Lick. MOO!
He didn't even spell his own name right.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Are the R-110s the only cars to have battery box explosions? I read on another board that R-142s and even some older cars had similar problems. Is this right?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Better I do this than start a whole new thread [at this moment] on the 160's since it has been talked about quite a bit.
What, and no one else is??? We ALL are interested in riding it! When they come out, you will know about it, because we will all be talking about it.
Does anyone know what lines R-160's will be assigned to?
That's like saying "do you know what colors a 2006 new Model Chevy will come in?"
David
if the B replaced the M, send V over Manhattan bridge through Brighton line.
If the V replaced the M, keep the B as is
If the M would terminate in Midtown, maintain train lengths and send V
to Brighton Line and B to 2nd Ave/Culver Express though this would just complicate shop assignments for the MTA
There is no longer any place for a train to terminate in midtown on 6th Ave anymore. The KK as it ran in the early 70's could never run that way again. The KK officially died in Dec, 2001 with the opening of the connection to the Queens line. 57th could not be a terminal since the tunnel opened, and Queensbridge's terminal days ended when they connected it to Queens blvd in 2001.
The only way to use Chrystie (without radical service changes) would be to combine the M and V. Some more radical ideas would be to combine it with the C, but that would mean radical changes throughout the system.
Couldn't the M just terminate at 59 Columbus Circle like those rush hour A trains to Rockaway Park and layover at 135 st. There has to be a way if the MTA treasures the 6th Avenue trains so as to not decrease their capacities
Of course if we're getting really crazy I'd say:
C 168th to eastern div, V Forest Hills/6th ave/cranberry/fulton st... give fulton st. local riders full length trains...
David
The platforms are only long enough for 8 car trains. 600 feet is about the length of 10 cars.
(GREAT imagination, Salaam)
http://www.uncanny.net/~wetzel/pery.htm
http://www.river-road.net/oldcars/redcar/
and of course, the motherlode of information:
http://www.erha.org/
Like I said, pretty serious stuff ... and the "subway" in downtown LA was most impressive as well. But it's all gone now. They have LACMTA now, trying to bring back a pittance of what once was.
Appreciated the NYCTA even more after reading what LA went through by screwing with THEIR subway, just to fatten up Cal Worthington. :)
All I can say is wait 10 years and maybe we'll see what she was talking about, if anything.
That idea she meant the 63rd St lower level is interesting.
Don't have AIM? Download it free here at www.aim.com
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I am a hobbyist photographer, and am going on this trip to get some good pics and above all have a good time. If I can't get a shot, so be it... I hope others can be respectful, and live with not being able to get every single shot out there.
And if anyone tries getting physical or verbal over a damn window (Like has been said on this board) I promise they will watch the train leave the station after they are thrown off.....
It's just plain stupid.
(I know I am gonna get nasty responses for this.... Some people are just itching to start a fight over nothing)
There were many times when I've seen a RFW shared by 5 TO 7 people
on either the 2 or 4 lines (in 2000-2001)... all it takes is people
standing with their back to the cab dooh and some keeping their heads
perfectly still so a brah near that first pole can get his zoom jiggy
going and make it LOOK like he's at the RFW (when infact he's got a few
sweaty, moody, grumpy compadres to contend with over the holy view).
Having NEVER BEEN on a MOD trip, I don't see the big dilly over the RFW...
I would much rather video the interiors of the cars etc etc...
I don't see fit paying $35 to have the same view I can have from the
front of an r32/38 (when running the same line)..
It's certainly possible for a lot of people to share the window with some planning -- e.g., let the shorter and skinnier railfans stand in front. A very large railfan was blocking half the window on the last trip, and I had a most excellent view of his shirt.
Oh but you get SOOOOOOOOOOOOO much more than just the view or the ride! I'll have to email you about it.
I actually won't be in anyone's way on these trips :) ... I'll be on vacation from 8/23 - 9/2 and for the moment I probably won't be able to make the Steeplecab trips, either.
--Mark
I do know who you are referring to; it occurred on the last IRT trip, but I do not know his name.
--Mark
Well, that means it wasn't me.
You see, I use a monopod :)
--Mark
I ment 'our shot'..
--Mark
--Mark
There.
I just lifted a finger for them.
(I'll let you guess WHICH finger was lifted)
The simple fact is a photostop is just that. A very brief oppurtunity to get your shots at a photostop. You see, we don't want to "hold up the road" and delay trains behind us. So that's why you have numerous railfans vying for a shot at a photo line and everyone's rude or loud about those not taking pictures.
The real people who are "anal" are the ones who step off, admire the rivets and look into the cab window getting in everyones shot. So that explains the chorus of catcalls from the photoline.
The idea situation is when only photographers get off the train, get their shots and reboard. This always not the case.
As for hogging the railfan window on fantrips, I saw one guy who had the best solution, On a "D" type MOD trip, he had a remote video camera taped to the railfan window next to the storm door. He had the cable taped above the doorway and cab so as not to interfere with operations and stood by the seat behind the cab with his camera. A microphone with a windscreen taped all the sounds. All this while the foamers were drooling by the rauilfan window !
Bill "Newkirk"
"Folks, if you're not taking pictures at a photo stop, please stand clear of the train to allow the photographers to grab their shots so that the train can get on its way. There will be plenty of time at the mealstop or when the train breaks down for you to examine the paint job or the authenticity of the car number decals. We're announcing this, so that you won't be shocked when the photographers start cursing at you, when you get in their way."
Sadly, I don't DO fantrips ... probably for the same reason as you. It's real hard to enjoy a vintage car with foamers and other hangers-on when to ME, the thrill is just being ALONE with a car, sit in the cab and take it in, or better yet, RUN the sum'bitch like the old days. I do the fanning thing for the PEOPLE, they're fun in their own way, especially AWAY from the car in question (one of the many treats at Branford I enjoyed - taking a WALK with folks like Thurston, Unca Lou, Unca Jeff and Unca Sparky, sitting down to DINNER with Unca Dougie and the other guys and talking NON-foamy shop) ... but I also love my time ALONE with a subway car (such as 1689 where I was granted the opportunity to apply power and wake it up from its slumber and move it out onto the railroad from the yard) to revel in it. Slumbering AND awake with geese on board ...
Whatta treat though, getting to wake up 1689, and roll her out of the barn, through the yard and guiding her into the station. Ah, like WAA in the old days ... and a couple of runs with folks on board was a hoot as well. definitely not the same experience I'd have being stuck in a car watching stations go by like geese myself. Heh.
Seriously though, I've heard too many horror stories of, as Fox would promote it, "Foamers Gone Wild, only $29.95 if you order now." While Unca Mark and so many OTHER photogs get their yayas "exposing themselves" ... they're ALL missing a GREAT commercial outcome in failing to take the camera OFF the rivets and the station shots of the same angular perspective (instead of great "straight on shots") and completely ignoring the "Foamers Gone Wild" bit.
I'd PAY for a videotape of "Foamers Gone Wild" just so I can live vicariously without having to ENDURE a certain Dennis the Mennis. :)
I have seriously considered going on a fantrip and videotaping the exploits of the attendees, but you then get into a whole mess of privacy issues that are not worth an amateur's time. I'll let the NY Times documentary channel handle that part of the business :) My personal interest is the infrastructure and not the people. YMMV.
I videotaped much of the 4 June fantrips and one of the best things I did was walk through all the cars as they were moving. It was especially terrific to watch on the last IRT trip, because I walked through the entire 10-car train of SMEE cars. I had never done that when the Redbirds were in service, though I would have the camera on while riding in a single car as it was moving. Things like the walkthrough are great to do on a fantrip.
On the second R1/9 fantrip, I stood at the end of car 491 near car 100, and videotaped the train frm the side as it sped under Fulton Street. Watching the stations pass by gave an unusual strobe-light effect with the steel beams producing this effect. It gave an idea of how fast we were going.
--Mark
I was reprimanded on the 6/8 MOD trip by a photographer who had positioned his tripod against the platform wall as I made my way to the front of the train to get a front-end shot. How else was I supposed to get to the front of the train, by climbing out the window and into the 2 train on the other track? Or was I expected to forego my photo entirely? (He had a tripod and I didn't, so presumably he was more important than I was.)
heypaul, I've never heard that on any trip, though I can't say it was ever announced. I think that request should be stated on all fantrip list of photostops sheet as well as a a verbal announcement. I've heard many times at photo lines, "when you get your shots, step back so someone else can get theirs".
Bill "Newkirk"
Certainly, the sponsors of the event want to make it as pleasurable to ALL so that this "gravy train" can CONTINUE. Seems to me that if folks contacted them, they could make an announcement AT the event of what folks need and expect and work it all out. Or in the "suit-covered anus" aspect, attach another sheet with a MEMO on it saying "Photographers will be taking pictures of the equipment - please do not crowd around the cars at photo stops so that the trip can be completed without sending you home early" or some such.
Organizers want to have EVERYBODY happy, and if there's enough rivet-cuddlers and folks who have never seen blue smoke or a marker light are provided with an "ooo-ah" stop where photography is prohibited, then everybody goes away happy. It's all a matter of how it's handled and those with (ahem) "special needs" see about making the organizers aware of it - they're SURE to make accomodations if it doesn't screw up the tour or the railroad. :)
If Unca Selkirk does a NYCTA run, the deal would be "no flash phots UNDERGROUND" and "get your damned hands off my handle. It ain't LIKE that." :)
But then again, with me in the cab, you can rest assured that even on the shores of Connecticut, Unca Selkirk can make even a LONE Arnine hit that high note. Spatulas recommended, somebody's gotta scrape Unca Lou off the bulkhead. Heh.
I didn't get it anywhere near that pitch during either of my turns. OTOH Lou had me wrap it only once. THEN I felt the car accelerate!:)
But without putting it on the ground, it went as fast as it was gonna. Heh.
GP38 Chris, I didn't attend that trip, so this is the first I heard of this. I've seen all sorts of tension and catcalls at photo stops over the years, but not as bad as you described. On the whole, rail photographers want their shot and back on the train before the motorman blows the whistle.
As I stated before, the clock is ticking once the doors open and we can't tie up "the road". One fantrip where we didn't tie up the road was back when the Jamaica "el" shut down Jamaica-168th Sts. and some other stations. In the morning we had the D Types and after lunch in Coney Island, we had the BMT Standards doing two trips to Jamaica-168th St. The stations were already closed down for passengers and we pretty much had that part of the line to ourselves. There was no "road" to tie up. Although I didn't attend them, the Farewell to the Myrtle and 3rd Ave "el" trips featured the lines closed off to revenue passengers since they were shut down anyway.
Bill "Newkirk"
Picture it: Island Park on the Long Beach Branch station, and motorists quietly stop at a closing grade crossing as a train enters the station for what seems like one of many times the gates close. All of a sudden some strange train pulls in and hundreds of people swarm out of the train, and onto the road next to the station, all the while tripods opening up, and are set up in front of the unsuspecting motorists cars. It looked like an onslaught attacking Island park, and soon all the stores in the town there emptied out onto the street to see what was happening. After all these people started setting up in front of cars stopped at the grade crossing, the motorists soon realized this was not going to be "just another stop at the grade crossing". Soon the curses started from the cars, and curses back, and thank goodness the organizers had the good sense to tell everyone to get out of the road, and they held the gates open for the cars to get through. People just have to
realize that the world does not stand still for a photograph.
This was not as bad as what hapened at Beach 90th, but people really should think that setting tripods up in the middle of the street is not a good idea.
Watching people set up you just have to laugh at the extremes some people go through to get that "photo". Island Park sure was funny.
But you got to admit, when you see throngs of foamers with cameras shooting the train, you have to think out loud, "what the hell is going on here "?
Bill "Newkirk"
"The simple fact is a photostop is just that. A very brief oppurtunity to get your shots at a photostop. You see, we don't want to "hold up the road" and delay trains behind us. So that's why you have numerous railfans vying for a shot at a photo line and everyone's rude or loud about those not taking pictures."
So what are you saying that the people who never rode these trains cause they were too young cannot get out and examine the car and admire and study it? So that a few people can take a picture that later they will probably think wasn't a great shot and throw away the picture? It's a 10 car train (if we're lucky) We're gonna be going out there and studying the train inside and out, like for me this will be the few times I can actully see the trains in action. Also it's the weekend the next train is usually 5 minutes behind us.
"All this while the foamers were drooling by the railfan window!"
It's a railfan window! Of course you're supposed to drool over it, especially on a vintage trip and ESPECICALLY with the fact that in 10 years there will be NO railfan window trains left in NYC! Not have 1 or 2 camera people standing in the way, that in the end the people have to buy their DVD for $10 to get a railfan window view. People want to take turns but the Video Takers from what I have seen don't care whatsoever.
The real people who are "anal" are the ones who step off, admire the rivets and look into the cab window getting in everyones shot. So that explains the chorus of catcalls from the photoline.
Does "MOVE!" or "Get the F**K out of the way!" constitute catcalls? I'm sorry it doesn't the people looking in the cabs and studying the train are admiring it, and learning about it, remembering the past, or getting a glimpse into the past. Why are we subject to hearing people cursing because of a photo? There are many photospots during the line, so if these people have the nerve to b**ch because there are people trying to admire the train? The first person to curse because they want to take a photograph, I will make sure they are ejected from the trip.
On a sunny day, it's because the front of the train is in the sunlight. Shoot at the other end and you have a backlit shot. You may get away with this if it's cloudy.
Bill "Newkirk"
There's no reason to be scared of an ERA or MOD fantrip. Not all photogs are screaming maniacs. But there are those who do get vocal when some inconsiderate daydreamer just strolls in the picture. After all, they are called photo stops, that's plain enough.
Bill "Newkirk"
As these trips are on active routes, it would seem possible that the people walking into view are not trip participants, but ordinary subway riders curious about these odd cars stopping at their station.
ECCHHH !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I am usually very polite until the person refuses to move (like the lady in the yellow sweater at beach 90th). There's plenty of time for you to check out the train at the lunch stop. You know, the Photo Stops, are called Photo Stops for a reason. I've never herd them come over the PA and announce "Study the train stops."
That railfan with the 3 megapixel digitial camera has just as much right to take pictures on a fantrip as anyone else.
If you don't like that, you can charter your own train.
BTW, I'm surprised anyone here needs this reminder, but tripod photography on the subway is not even permitted. Watch it.
So sorry for the suggestion, jerk. I'll make sure not to give you any more suggestions, oh holy photographer.
You seem to be pointing at me like I'm one of the photographers with the tripod. I don't use a tripod on the trips, to much stuff to bring around.
I don't know or care what equipment you use. It's the attitude I find a bit disturbing.
I want everyone to have fun on the trips, but frankly taking pictures is always first and foremost on my list. I've been doing these trips long before MANY of you guys were born (my first fan trip was in 1957) People used to cooperate with the photographers, things have changed. Just don't point at me for things other people may have said.
--Mark
This project will provide for the design and acquisition of approximately 55 to 60 trackless trolleys to replace SEPTA’s existing trackless trolley fleet. This fleet is more than 24 years old and well beyond its useful life. The trackless trolley fleet operates out of SEPTA’s Frankford and Southern Garages serving Routes 29, 59, 66, 75 and 79 in South, North and Northeast Philadelphia.
Vehicles acquired through this project will incorporate current technology and proven components, along with passenger amenities, to ensure overall safety, security and passenger comfort. Each trackless trolley will have a public address system that will enable the operator to clearly communicate with passengers inside and outside the vehicle. For the hearing and visually impaired, an audio/visual annunciating system will be installed, which will automatically announce upcoming stops and informational messages. All vehicles will fully comply with Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) requirements. This project will also provide for spare components, tools and equipment required to service the new trackless trolleys.
Prior funding for this project will support the development of vehicle specifications. A Fiscal Year 2004 Congressional earmark has been requested to support of the acquisition of vehicles.
If this happens, it will be fairly unique in North America. Most cities that still have TT routes have some special circumstance which argues for the surviving routes--Steep hills in SF; cheap hydropower in Vancouver; both in Seattle; the Harvard Square tunnel in Boston; a special local commitment in Dayton.
Good grief.
-Robert King
---Choo Choo :)
Chuck Greene
brah (br-ahh) Hulk Hogan in his slackjaw TV interviews pronounces the word "brother"
as "bruddah" which is further overhauled and Bombardier'd to "brah".
G/O's and Service Advisories of IMPROPER use:
I) brah (br-ahh) DOES NOT imply, nor render me to be of Irish descent
(as Kool D. assumed prior to meeting me at 'Ultimate Ride').
II) brah (br-ahh) *ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT* refer to a certain
FEMININE article of clothing (of similar spelling sans H).
Disclaimers and Clearances
-All uses of "brah" in this media and forum are fully intended
to serve as an (optimistic) substitute for the word "BROTHER".
-Inappropriate use or misuse is subject to summons and having offender
detrained at Grand Central on 7.
-This thread mentions a subway-related encounter set forth in point I above,
thereby this thread successfully meets requirem to bear relation to transit discussion.
Thanks 4 the interest, brahs!
SCHMUCK
subfan
Peace,
ANDEE
I count 4:
Bx55
subwaygrrl
BingBong (of SelkirkTMO)
subway-buff (the 'IT')
Bx55
subwaygrrl
BingBong (of SelkirkTMO)
subway-buff (the 'IT')
You forgot one :)
Oh, and there's also a new one (I hope) called "Amanda."
I've already made use of that term, as part of the expression "Ignorant Schmucks" (meaning stock market investors). As long as it's used in a completely different context, I suppose it's okay.
Wanna wager on that, brah?
Mark W. was THE FIRST SubTALKer I EVER MET.
(Mark S. Feinman, anon_e_mouse, Bill Newkirk, and Bx.55 all tied for 2nd)
Easy on that wager, brah Choo Choo! :)
Wrong on both buddy boy.
Met Carlos 4 years ago I believe and many times since and no, I don't work weekends... Does the subway even run on weekends??
And yeah, the subways run on weekends, sometimes even fast! We were on two trains today that each hit 49mph! What a day. (I'm sure they hit those speeds during the week, I'm just never at the right place at the right time and at a cab with a visible speedometer.)
If it didn't how would anything be able to get in the way of the important stuff...namely:
THE FAN TRIPS!!!
So better be on the CLEAR side than run homeball and be mizundastood.
You mean that some women actually posted here?!? Wow, could've fooled me.
Must've been other SubTalkers bad BRAHth that chased 'em away.
Can't wait for that Canal Street trolley line to open in New Orleans...
Mark
How quickly you forget, Mark!!! In New Orleans they are STREETCARS.
: )
Mark
I thought the alternate form of "bro" is "Manssiere."
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This article will hopefully better inform you all on exactly what is going on in Washington Re: Amtrak.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#Amtrak
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Instead of saying ths is dumb out of hand, read and see how dumb it really is.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#Mica
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Not bad news...not a new line either.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#Fresno
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UP is fairly cool, not like CSX.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#UPdonates
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So is every state...shame that all the money for it was diverted to the oil industry and and airlines.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#Oklahoma
They are proposing Oklahoma City-Tulsa on that report.
Would be smarter to revamp (and/or include) Oklahoma City-Dallas and turn the Heartland Flyer into a real flyer instead of today’s (popular nonetheless) 55-mph creeper.
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Lima is a cool place. Home of the pld PRR NS tower, Lima locomotive works which is now the place where they make M1A2 tanks.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#Ohio
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OUCH, a 0.0% on time rating for the Sunset. Thank god you can't have a negitive on time rating. The 97% Hiawatha performance at least demonstrates that it might not be Amtrak's fault all the time.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#Hiawatha
The line IS dispatched by metrolink dispatchers, no longer handled by the BNSF except for the 25 miles from Fullerton into LA. BNSF seems to be quite cooperative with Amtrak and Metrolink to get the trains through on time.
Thank God it isn't the UP doing the dispatching...
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Gee, how many years has this been circulating around? A total waste if you ask me. There is more than enough room at Hoboken for West Side service.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#New
There may be “plenty of room” at Hoboken, but there is yet more room at GCT. People still want to go to Manhattan, not Hoboken, and if a rail link is opened up in Rockland and Orange Counties for such, if you think that people will not take advantage, then let me remind you of the masses of people who switched from Hoboken to NY Penn when NJ Transit’s Midtown Direct service first started from the former DL&W electric lines.
Not to mention that Metro-North would then have the means to do away with NJ Transit as a contract operator and also have a selling point with which to increase numbers of passengers from lines like the PJ line, Spring Valley, etc. (assuming a restoration of the Piermont Branch coinciding with this or building a parallel route to the Piermont Branch to placate NIMBYs), or even on the West Shore line if a connector is built (towns like Haverstraw, Orangeburg, New City, etc). Would be interesting to see P32AC-DMs hauling Shoreliner IIs through towns like Harriman and Tuxedo, to be sure. (Besides, this would be the fulfilment of the dream of one of the original Erie RR presidents, to cross the Hudson at Piermont for better access to NYC, which was later supplanted by the acquisition of the Paterson & Ramapo and the Paterson & Hudson River…)
What are the history of these?
The Paterson & Hudson River was the earlier of the two, establishing a route between Jersey City and Paterson as early as 1847. The Paterson & Ramapo was an affiliate of the P&HR, having itself opened in 1848. The Erie bought both roads in 1852 and converted them to 6-foot gauge. That is about all I know; further information on the Web is rather sparse :-(
Maybe in a year or two, but not right now, with only one tunnel in service, which runs at capacity during the rush hours.
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Gee, how many years has this been circulating around? A total waste if you ask me. There is more than enough room at Hoboken for West Side service.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#Chicago
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Yup, once again Sound Transit is that system you love to hate.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#Sound
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Hey this is great!!! Oh, wait, its only light rail.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#Houston
To see lots of debate and discussions about the light rail in Houston, check out the Houston Architecture discussion board at
http://www.houstonarchitecture.info/haif/index.php
There several threads there that have pictures.
Another place to find Houston rail pictures is :
http://www.lightrail.com/photos/houston/houston.htm
I keep saying I am going to take some pictures, but my wife is not a much of a railfan, and I have a 2-year old son, so I don't have a lot of spare time. She does let me drive along the rail route, and when the weather is nicer we walk along parts of the route.
It will have its own dedicated lanes, but there are something like 70 street crossings.
The new 64 mile systems being planned looks nice, but in order to fund it money will have to be taken away from road construction, and that is not too likely in Houston. I am hoping for a compromise to get part of the system built.
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Good for PA getting more trucks off the roads.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#State
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I think I know an engineer who is going to get his ass nailed to the wall.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#NSderails
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I think I know an engineer who is going to get his ass nailed to the wall.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#Thieves
When you overspeed the cab signal alertor bell goes off and if you do not make an X lb brake application w/in some period of time the train goes into emergency. You only need to bring the train back down to 80. Less skilled engineers, or speed deamons will tend to tend to trip the overspeed often (on the NH Line 5:07 Super Express my engineer kept hitting the 90mph overspeed, even in the 75/85 mph segments of the railroad, he was clearly a speed deamon). Engineers with good speed control, like the one on my NJT train last week, can get the train spot on 80 and not have to put up with the annoying bell.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Measured miles for speedometer checking are listed in the employee timetables.
I guess some engineers would rather hotdog than have quiet.
I recall electric trains around 10 years ago that hit close to 90.
As it is, looking out the front of an M1 on the Main Line between Queens and Hicksville can be a little nerve-wracking, seeing crossing after crossing with cars beating it across just before the gates are down, your train at full speed, the engineer blasting, and knowing if something went wrong you could never stop in time.
On a line like Babylon (fully grade separated) I don't know how important either restriction would be.
Why not re-calibrate the gates so they come down when the train is a greater distance away?
The earth rotates about it's axis, and if we assume that the earth's radius at the equator is 6378km (3986.25 miles), then we get 40,078km (25,046 miles) for the equatorial circumference of the earth, which we obviously enough cover in roughly 24 hours. Thus we can arrive at about 1670km/hr, or 1037mph imparted by the earth's spin on any body standing on the equator.
However I'm fairly certain that you noticed that NYC, MN, LIRR and the subway are not located anywhere near the equator, thus we have to find the distance between the NYC and the axis of rotation. Since NYC lies at about 40° longitude, we know that it it 40 degrees above the equator. Using the parallel lines theorm, we can tell that 40 degrees also separates NYC's plane from the intersection of the equatorial plane and the axis of rotation. This forms a very nice right triangle with the radius of the earth (above) as the hypotenus, and the unknown X distance to the axis of rotation as the cosine of the longitude, 40 degrees in this case. So we do Cos(40)*6378km and get 4885.831km, or 3053.69 miles, multiply this by 2Ð, and you get 30,698.58 km, or 19186 miles around the world at 40°. This means that we only turn at 1279.107km/h or just about 800mph, considerably slower than the equator's 1,000mph. This holds true everywhere and anywhere two objects are aligned north or south of each other, the southern one will always be faster, even if it is only by a few miles an hour.
Really the fastest you could go on earth would be to fly in the blackbird east above the equator, at midnight on or around Jan 4 2004, when the earth is at perihelion (91,405,340 miles from the sun), and thus, thanks to Kepler's laws, moving fastest in it's orbit about the sun (a whole 'nother matter for another time).
Oh yeah, the simple answer to your question, GCT is the most southern point on MN, so it's the fastest, beating out 125th St by probably less than 10mph. I'm guessing that for LIRR it'd be the Long Beach Terminal, but I'm not sure where exactly that is in Long Beach, so it could be Far Rockaway. On the NYCTA, I'm guessing that Rockaway Park on the A train out in the rockways would be the most southern, and thus fastest, but that's just a guess, what is the southernmost point on the NYCTA?
The best part of looking at it like this, it means that the NJT AC line is the fastest branch NJT runs! :-)
Oh yeah, and if you meant speed as compared to some completely arbitrary fixed point alongside the railroad ROW, then you should be more specific in your post, instead of merely leaving a broad message in the subject for smartaleks like me to exploit.
But thanks anyway!
What about south of the equator? Won't the northern most be the faster?
That would leave you off around 34 Street between 6 and 8 Avenues. That might be the cheapest way into Manhattan.
Seriously:
NJ Transit Line 62 bus to Newark-Penn Station, then PATH to NYC.
The Airlink bus was done away with when the Monorail started running, at double the cost of the Airlink bus (when you transfer from NJ Transit or Amtrak).
The 302 Airlink bus was not done away with when the “monorail started running,” which was close to a decade ago. The 302 was canceled when the EWR station opened on the Northeast Corridor and the monorail was extended to connect with trains that stopped there.
Over there, ask where bus #62 to Newark Penn Station stops. Make sure you're getting on a #62 that goes to Penn, and not from Penn. Otherwise you'll end up in Perth Amboy.
$1.10, exact change only. At Newark Penn station, take the PATH train to midtown (may or may not need a transfer at Grove St, depending upon the time of day). $1.50.
Total: $2.60
We lost a lot of good men today in order to bring you these photos. Well, actually, all that happened was that an NJ Transit truck down at track level at Secaucus honked at me when I started taking photos of the station from the highway bridge. Screw him, I kept on taking photos.
It was only three years ago when the tracks and ties just south of Harmon Cove got torn up and replaced with new welded rail, with a slightly different alignment that made room for supports for a new bridge for the two additial tracks on the NEC. All that work, now a waste.
Jimmy
Jimmy
http://www.trekshare.com/viewimage.cfm?jimageid=31452&page=28
and
http://www.trekshare.com/viewimage.cfm?jimageid=31449&page=28
Here's a link to the first article...
Deccan Herald report
I'm copying out one paragraph:
The Capital Construction Company will also oversee and coordinate the MTA's extensive security capital construction projects and will spearhead two significant components of Lower Manhattan's redevelopment, the Fulton Transit Centre and the new South Ferry subway station complex.
Are there a special "security capital construction projects" or is "security" some glitch in translation?
Here's another article. It's bascially the same. What I found interesting was reading some of the comments on the message board at the bottom of the article.
Rediff.com article
Finally, I ran Mr. Nagaraja's name through Google Groups, just to see if anyone else is talking about this. I came up with something weird, which I assume is not related to the MTA.
Vampirism?
Or perhaps the Capital Construction Company is planning to outsource it s work to Indian firms. :-)
But not to fear, the regime's working on that too. No more overtime, pay cuts, 70 hour weeks. Why once we're done with our American third world conversion, we'll be competitive again. And to think. In the 1960's we were trying to figure out what we'd DO with all that "leisure time" technology was going to give us ...
What would be different in the City today?
What would 3rd Avenue look like today had the El survived? What buildings would have not been built? What would the economic impact have been on the City?
How would East Midtown have developed?
Would there still be plans for an SAS?
Would ridership be substantial?
How would vehicular traffic patterns be different?
Would the Lex be bearable?
What class of subway cars would be used on it?
Would this be a better city today with the El running these past 48 years?
Just wondering what it would be like to Metrocard my way onto the Fulton Street el platform, near my office...not having to endure a stifling subway platform in August....
As sentimental as I was about my OWN favorite line, it took FOREVER to get there, and it only went from 149 to Gunhill. The 2 train will get you between them (though not to Webster or 3rd) in half the time. When they killed the Manhattan portion, they ALSO killed the BRONX portion, as well as any hoods ALONG the line. Byebuy ... though I loved it because of the LoV's and its convenience, I almost NEVER rode it ***to*** work. I'd ride HOME on it, but never downtown, except for fun or to get to the White Castle on Fordham. Too many stops, and the transfer at 149 to the 2/5 was PAINFUL. I just cut to the chase and took the D from 205 ... I lived at 204th and Webster, right UNDER the 204 stop.
What SHOULD have been done was what was *PROMISED* ... a THIRD AVENUE (Bronx) SUBWAY ... then again, they ALSO promised and extension of the A train from 211/Isham up Riverdale Avenue to 264th. Uh-huh. Whether the southern end connected IRT, or connected up with an SAS was of no importance. That's a section of Bronx (south of "Norwood") that was UNSERVED by train. A similar stretch exists between the 6 and the 5 train, but nobody's thought of that.
But without somewhere to go from 149 south, the Bronx Third Avenue El was a GELDING. It might as well have died once they killed off the LoV's and put those chitty R12's up there. It was already pathetic. Once the LoV's were yanked, there wasn't even FOAMER interest in riding it as though it were the Myrtle. :(
What would you think if they connected it directly into the 2/5 line at 149th Street? Although it would probably be a situation where locals turned and expresses go through, because the line couldn't handle combined 2/5/8 service.
But still, I just can't picture the 3rd Avenue El today with R-142's running around on it...YUCK.
Now, the Myrtle El with R-143's, I could maybe get into that...
And as to 143's on the Myrt, slap yourself ... the Q cars MADE that line, though it would have been even nicer if the gate cars had stayed. Boy, talk about impractical foamer dreams. :)
Too late now of course. :)
also why was the Fordham Road station also called 190th Street, was there a 190th Street by 3rd Avenue once?
the 210th Street station doesn't have any street under it, because of the Bronx River Parkway getting rid of it
190th was actually where the stairs landed since the split to the Bronx Park spur was AT Fordham Road - once they cut off the spur, they put "Fordham Road" up on the platform. But the station was actually a block south of Fordham.
And 200th Street WAS 200th Street - the Bedford Park Boulevard thing came a bit later. I suppose the old "I was here FIRST" applies. :)
So the office towers wouldn't have gone toward 3rd Av; they might have headed further uptown. The new residential towers might have hugged the park a little more closely. Whether there would have been a change due to less crowding on the Lex (which everyone tolerates) or less use of the MNRR close-in-stops (how could there be less?), I'm not so sure. Probably just bigger apartments in Spanish Harlem, as in West Harlem now, but, ultimately, no socioeconomic difference. One way or another, the money would all have fled by the seventies for the suburbs.
Weekend service for trains on the Main, Bergen, Pascack Valley, and Port Jervis lines will begin at the regional hub in the fall.
Something doesn't add up. :-)
They brought in a photographer for nothing? (At least they didn't include Joe Testagrose's pre-GOH R-32 at DeKalb.)
Has anyone seen the print edition?
URL at http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/transportation/nyc-mta0802,0,5301790.story?coll=nyc-manheadlines-trans
My safety is decreased, not increased, by a station exit that is open with a token booth during rush hours and is locked tight at night. Whatever degree of safety S/A's provide, they don't provide any of it to passengers who have to walk along a platform past a closed exit, nor do they provide any of it to passengers who then have to walk an extra block or two on the street to get home.
And there was a brutal rape in my neighborhood of someone followed home from the subway in the middle of the night (the rape took place on the street). And the neighborhood's homeless live near the station entrances where the booth will be closed. And my children walk through the station, to avoid a busy street, on their way to and from school. And they have to get past a bunch of rowdy teens from Bishop Ford in the afternoon.
Guess what, however. The booth to be closed, on the north side of the station, was already closed in the afternoons. It was only open in the AM rush, to allow purchases of tokens when most people enter (rather than leave) the station. There is no security issue in the morning --the station is too full of people on their way to work. In any event, you can see almost none of the station from that booth. At least the main booth has a view up and down the outside fare control hallway.
So the security issue is bogus -- the booth is only open when it is not needed. The best way to increase passenger security is to either get the remaining station agent out of the booth and moving around the station (TWU objection -- the station agent would then be less secure), or to install security cameras with motion detectors, montiored either from the booth or from somewhere else.
Of course, the TWU objection is pure featherbedding in the guise of "safety." If station agents are released from the booths to move around the station, they won't need the protection of the booths because they won't have access to money.
This argument has long since swept through the LIRR on the closing of ticket offices. Many communities complained about the lack of human presence at stations, some of which can be relatively isolated.
However, in that case too, cameras would probably be even better if the issue is security, though I don't think they have any.
I wouldn't want an unattended station, especially in the middle of the night (when NYCT would be most tempted to do it). I'd rather that stations be closed, and buses be provided. But a second booth just isn't worth the expense in most cases.
The TWu and the straphangers campaign really did a number on the public in the area of misinformation.
-Most of the booths scheduled to close were already closed most of the day with no crime problems. Most of these entrances were closed off at night as well. The only problems were there was not enough heets when the booth was closed because the turnstlyes were in the way
-TWU and straphnagers made it sound like this concept of unmanned exits and entrances was new to NYCT. They forget about all the exit only areas that were converted to entrances and exits
"I wouldn't want an unattended station, especially in the middle of the night "
In the middle of the night there should be some sort of human presence in stations. Unfortunitly most station with token booths overnight, the S/A in the booth provides little deterrant to any would be criminal. They are often up the steps a football feild away in a sound proof booth. Often sleeping.
On the flip side many stations especially on the broadway and lex local should have no S/A duty during the day. There are plenty of passengers, police patrols, maintance crews, train crews, newstands to provide human pressence and no realy need for a fare sales with MVM's and third party retailes all around selling metrocards.
Increase real security when it is needed at night. Add police patrols and Montitored CCTV
It works very well on PATH. PATHS vending machines are horrible
Don't feel bad, they do a good job at misinforming their members.
> Unfortunitly most station with token booths overnight, the S/A in the booth provides little deterrant to any would be criminal.
Of course. Would someone in a booth deter you? Besides they have a limited range of vision, so even if they are there, a criminal just has to perform their crime outside that range.
Subway stations need major security upgrades. S/A have never been the answer.
Imagine if the MTA wanted to lay people off in order to close booths. The fur would really fly
To touch upon another topic of discussion, facilitating cell phone reception in stations and on trains would be an excellent way of enhancing passenger safety.
The majority of those who are annoying are using nextels with the outboard speaker. The use of such speaker is already illegalin the subeays as an amplification devise
Whether this is reason to restrict cell phone usage on the subway (or while driving, or while walking) is left as an exercise to the reader, but cell phone conversations and face-to-face conversations are not alike.
This doesn't apply to everyone. I try to keep the volume of my voice as low as possible and I still look while walking. It's clearly true of some people.
There are people who are obnoxious while speaking in person.
As for cell phone use while driving, any person without a hands free kit will have only one hand on the steering wheel for prolonged periods of time. I've driven with one hand on the wheel, it isn't as easy.
Any manipulation of the radio or other device would only be done for a brief period and whenever convenient to the driver.
Ban manual transmissions!
No way. Driving is boring enough as it is.
No way. Driving is great. You just don't drive in the right places.
But I find driving on local streets intersting too. Whatever floats your boat.
Because you sometimes need to in order to maintain the desired speed. Case in point: I make a left turn into the access drive for a parking deck, and I need to downshift because I'm slowing from 25 mph to 15 mph, but then need to maintain the 15 mph while going up the first ramp. After stopping at the top of that ramp, I am making a sweeping U-turn and proceeding farther up into the parking deck; I need to shift from first into second while doing so.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My mother has been saying that ever since Dad taught her to drive fifty years ago. Of course, she's in favor of banning seat belts too, because "if you don't have a seat belt on then you'll go slower in the corners because otherwise you'll slide out from under the wheel". But she wears one now simply because she doesn't want a ticket.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No way! Besides, with my "three on the tree", I can shift and steer at the same time using only one hand :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You've been running 629 too much; you're accustomed to one-handed operation ;^)
The issue isn't one-handed. You can drive one-handed and instinctively put your other hand on the wheel when needed. It's inattention. I've seen people do amazingly dangerous things while talking on cell phones.
And even when they know they have a problem, they just won't put that phone down. You should have seen a guy trying to crank the wheel one-handed for a hard-left turn while talking.
If I need to make a call, I pull over, even on a limited access highway where it presumably be safer to talk and drive.
I've done that, it's not hard. The one-handing combined with the inattention is the problem.
I've used a handheld cell phone while driving. There have been a few times where I put down the phone while turning because whatever and whoever is with me in person takes precendence over someone miles away using a phone.
Before someone from the holier-than-thou crowd on Subtalk comes over and chastises me for breaking the law: I've never broken this law. It wasn't always illegal to talk on the phone while driving and it isn't illegal everywhere.
I'm plain sick of having to drive with morons around me driving and talking on their phones. I see those lips flapping I want to get as far from them as possible. Because inevitably, they're driving slower or making stupidly dangerous driving decisions while yapping away like chipmonks.
I wish the state would give out rewards for snitching on phone-talkin' drivers. I'd get a friend to come along as I cruise the byways to take photographs (including license plates) of the yammering fools. Probably make some decent change out of it.
I don't even bother forwarding "your paypal/ebay account has problems, please click on this NON-ebay link to my scam site and put in your pin number" scams anymore - ebay and paypal make it IMPOSSIBLE to contact security to let them know of these scams before thousands are scammed by them. They're just not interested.
But with the economy on the tinfoil standard, headed for the ball of string, that'd make a nifty income-producing career if they did it. :)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
See, this is what confounds me. I just don't think that's a good enough reason to divert your attention from the task at hand, driving. It's just a completely different action than tuning a radio. Stuff like that can be handled before you leave the house. Or with a call at work, if possible. If not, than, hell, guess you just have to make another trip out.
I'm convinced a lot of guys are secretly thinking, "Damn, now ain't I cool, wit' dis cell phone like a big shot!" I wish cell phones would go the way of CB radios. What is this "always on" phenomena gonna do to our personal levels of sanity? I'm just out of touch I guess but I will ALWAYS want there to be times when I can't be IMMEDIATELY reached. Have we grown so emotionally insecure that we must have our connections nonstop?
There's validity in parents wanting to stay in touch with the kids, and business reasons. But dang, I'd bet most calls are of the "Did you see that cute [chick/dude] on the train today?" variety. Okay, so I'm a grump. But at least, me being a grump won't cause you to crash your car.
And yes, there are times when I would prefer to not be immediately reachable. Those that I can control (such as when I'm in shul) I do; unfortunately, being on-call essentially 24x7 is part of my job.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My father doesn't drive and doesn't have much of a sense of driving conditions. When he's in the car, he'll gladly ask me a complicated question while I'm trying to merge into heavy traffic at night in the snow. It's infuriating, but it's exactly what cell phone users put up with every time they call while driving.
I was once nearly hit in a parking lot by an SUV backing out of a space. Apparently the driver, who couldn't wait to finish her call before backing out, also couldn't be bothered to watch where she was going.
We already have one on the books... it's called "careless and reckless". Just having noisy, unrestrained children in the car can be a major distraction, even if the driver doesn't turn around and yell at them. Our solution to disruptive children in the car (when our children were growing up) was the "rule of silence" - when that rule was put in effect, ANY noise resulted in an immediate halt to the car and punishment meted out. Only rarely did we ever have to invoke it, and even more rarely did we have to stop. It seems that too many parents nowadays can't be bothered with assuming the full responsibilities of parenthood, hence the increasing prevalence of little brats. But I digress.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Naw, you got me wrong here. I wasn't responding to the "breaking the law" aspect of your post. It was the talking on phones while driving bit that stuck in my craw. Whether there's a law against it or not, it's not the way to drive a ton and a half box-on-wheels within a matrix suffused with similar objects in random motion. It's like playing pinball with only one flipper working.
I once observed a lady exiting out of Sunrise Mall onto Carmens Road who was chatting on her phone. Not only did she pass the red light signal, she "made contact" with another car and proceeded to slowly PUSH the other car laterally across the street. I was watching her eyes as whe went through the light (I just happened to be walking along Carmens Road when this happened) and she was completely oblivious to her surroundings but surely attentive to her phone concentration. When her car hit the other one it took her about three seconds to re-register awareness of the world around her. This event solidified my grasp of the matter.
A few days later, I sent a long email with my opinion.
About a year(!) later, somebody at Straphangers responded to my email, basically stating that my opinion was incorrect.
Why was I asked for my opinion if there was determined to be one correct opinion from the outset?
As for the V, I have no idea.
The crowding statistic covers the most crowded 15 minutes. The G operates only every 10 minutes, so the statistic is meaningless.
As for the V, I have no idea.
They stated that the TA did not publish the statistic for crowding.
Publishing that would go directly against one of SC adovocacies to get 8 car G service full time
Dear rider:
Last week we sent you the following message asking for comments if your token booth was closing or hours were being reduced:
Transit officials plan to close or reduce hours at 122
token/MetroCard booths in the subways. If the MTA gets its way, many
riders will have to choose been their safety and convenience, either
taking longer walks or entering at unstaffed locations. To learn more
and to speak out, go to http://www.straphangers.com/boothclosing/intro.html
Due to some technical difficulties, we were unable to receive your responses.
If your token booth is affected, we still want to hear from you! Please e-mail us at straphangers@nypirg.org.
Thank you, we hope to hear from you and we apologize for any inconvenience.
==============================
NYPIRG Straphangers Campaign
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My response, dated August 2, 2001:
I'd like to express my support for the TA's plans.
By replacing part-time token booths (which are invariably closed at
night) with full-time unattended entrances, both safety and convenience
will be improved. No longer will it be necessary to walk an extra block
or two along the street or platform just to reach an open station
entrance or exit. (As well, the money the TA saves can be used either
to push off the next fare increase or to just slightly improve train
service somewhere in the city.)
Unfortunately, my home station is not on the list of affected stations.
Middays and nights I will still have to walk the extra block to the only
full-time station entrance, at the far end of the platforms.
The response from Straphangers, dated August 8, 2002 (yes, over a year later):
Dear David,
thank you for contacting the straphangers campaign. We appreciate your response to our inquiry about token booth closures. You mentioned that a full-timed unstaffed entrance would be a boost to both safety and convenience. While I can understand how a 24 hour entrance is more convenient, a permanently unstaffed entrance is anything but safe. In many stations with a token booth marked for closure, there are long corridors that would become unmonitored with the removal of the attendant from the booth. Should you have an emergency, or the need to ask a question, the next token booth is blocks away down this corridor that is now without supervision. Crime in the subway will go up, not down, with the closure of token booths. In order to ensure that people don't jump the turnstiles without an attendant present to stop them, the MTA is putting in HEETs (floor to ceiling revolving metrocard entries). However, each space in the HEET is large enough to accomodate two medium sized peop!
le. Fare-beating will increase with the removal of clerks.
The absence of a clerk is also a problem if you have large packages, suitcases, a bicycle, a stroller or anything else that's too bulky to fit through the HEET. An attendant can easily open the service door for you. Without an attendant, you'll have to walk blocks to the next token booth with all of your things. In some cases, there are stations in which the token booth scheduled to close is the ONLY one on the downtown platform, for example, and in order to get through a person would have to cross over to the opposite platform, enter there, take the train in the wrong direction to a station where he/she can cross back around to go the other way.
The main problem you mention is that some stations already close at night or on weekends, and so the entire entrance isn't available. We are also trying to prevent these reductions. I have found, having visited all the sites set for a token booth closure or reduction in hours, that very few of them close the entire entrance -- instead the entrance remains open without the attendant present. For many of us, this is not such a blow. But if you have strollers, crutches, packages, a bicycle, suitcases, instruments, a disability, or a question, it becomes a problem.
At one of the sites, Myrtle-Willoughby on the G train, I had to help an elderly man get through the HEET. He had a cane and was wheeling a suitcase. He went through first, and then I pushed the suitcase through to him on the other side. He had been trying to get through for a while before I came. A token booth attendant would have made this problem moot.
The other issue is that by closing token booths, the MTA is eliminating jobs.
~Shantha, Straphangers Campaign
Maybe they don't agree with you. But they sent you a thoughtful email, showing that they read your communication in detail. They also made some reasonable points that you didn't address.
Maybe the best choice borrows from both you andthe Strappies.
Safety is a major concern at night. Part-time booths are invariably closed at night. So much for the idea that part-time booths promote security.
When the booth closes, in many cases the entire exit closes. The deserted platform past the closed exit is not under the surveillance of an S/A (whatever that's worth), nor is the extra block or two on the street that I need to walk to get home since the part-time exit is closed.
If the booth is removed and HEETs are installed, then anyone is satisfied: most of us can take the nearest exit and shorten our walks, and those who, for whatever reason, prefer to walk an extra block on an empty platform to the attended exit are still welcome to do so. It's a no-lose proposition. And it saves money, too.
And it took them a year to come up with it.
What points did they make that I didn't address?
Perhaps, but the point they are making is that the majority of customers will be riding when the booths are still open. For them, an open booth is appreciated.
Perhaps you are the one who is closed-minded and rehashes arguments on this issue regardless of their merits.
It's a classic FUD (fear - uncertainty - doubt) campaign.
Why don't I ever see Straphangers presenting the two options on an equal footing? Option 1: The status quo. Booths are only open a few hours per day; at other times, in many cases, there's no access at all. Option 2: Full-time unattended access. Ask the users of each station what they'd prefer for their particular part-time booths.
But that would yield an honest answer, which isn't what Straphangers is seeking.
Straphangers campaign is a publicity outfit for whoever pays them the most
Period!!!!
They never issue un-biased surveys or reports
They frequently use loaded questions in thier surveys which results in a positive answer they want
Most educated riders agree that the MTA should move to close more booths.
Why don't I ever see Straphangers presenting the two options on an equal footing? Option 1: The status quo. Booths are only open a few hours per day; at other times, in many cases, there's no access at all.
Option 2: Full-time unattended access. Ask the users of each station what they'd prefer for their particular part-time booths."
And lower fare and safet station
You're missing the point. It's repeating an argument without addressing (ie ignoring) a reasonably stated counter-argument.
This doesn't mean I agree with the Strappies on this one - I was only pointing out that it was obvious the Strappies had read David's email and answered his points thoughtfully. They may not be promoting the answers David wants (or that I want). But they treated him with a modicum of respect. When offered, return same.
What counterargument am I ignoring?
I wish the media would stop acting as if the Straphangers are a legitimate rider advocacy group.
I have been advocating for months for subtalkers(under a name that does not draw our fair and generous webhost int othe issue) to put out a counter arguament to the media.
It's worth, oh, let's see, how does nothing sound?
Looks like their mind is made up.
Err, have they ever tried to jump an HEET? I'd like to see them try.
:0)
OTOH, a few lost fares cost less than an S/A.
Besides, S/A's don't stop farebeating anyway. S/A's don't issue tickets for farebeating; cops do, and they issue tickets at HEETs and standard turnstiles alike.
Washington Metrorail probably loses a fare every once in a while because two slender and quick people scamper through the faregate close enough to each other so it doesn't have time to close between them.
AKA our message or no message
What ends up happenign now is that people want to voice thier opinion, they recieve a message for sc to make your voice heard. the only voice that get heard is SC propoganda
There's another possible explanation. You don't see all the responses they got. If a majority of those responses are consistent with current message, then what they have done is formulated a petition based on that. That's not wrong; it's the conclusion of a process. How well the process was conducted is another question; neither of us is privy to enough information to judge that.
But your assumption that it was just propaganda shows just as much bias and prejudice (meaning political, not racial or ethnic) on your part as you accuse them of.
I have been studing thier actions closly for over a year. I have spoken to Gene Rousenoff(mind my spelling) personally. Their message board is full of ringers who stear the conversation in a particular direction and qucikly shoot down any opinion not of thier own. Plus as I mentioned earlier, they changed the format of thier online petitions from suggesting a sample text to mandating the company line.
I was a supporter of SC before I began paying attention to exactly what they are doing. What they are doing is spreading propoganda for the TWU Plane and simple
#3 West End Jeff
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
If I'm driving from the north via I-93, where's the best place to park and ride on the Orange Line - Oak Grove, Malden, or Wellington. I would be arriving around 10-11 AM, so availability is the key question. Thank you to all who answer.
They'll all be full by then.
Call me and we can chat about options.
Sean@Temple
What purpose would restoring the reading terminal serve
Bringing back Diesel rail service. Unless you think that $2 billion ought to be spent on a Schuylkill Valley Metro that is not coming.
The Center City Tunnel provides better distribution of Passengers then two seperate terminals from two rail systems
But you cannot run Diesel trains through it, can you. I am not proposing a reversal of the Center City Tunnel project, but having a SEPTA-only Diesel rail terminal plus available redundancy available in Philadelphia in case the Center City Tunnel becomes unavailable for any reason.
And having lived in North Philly for two years i can tell you that no one would go to any convention located there
People go to the NJPAC in Newark NJ and they still go to Yankee Stadium in the Bronx. Adequate transportation plus security will insure that people go to a Convention Center located in North Philly.
But as far as having a diesel terminal, isn't there capacity at 30th street to possibly handle some septa diesels in the future and there is always the option (abiet more expensive) of hybrid sets ala NY's Metro North. But if a diesel terminal on the reading side would be essential then another option could be some sort of transfer station (i know not the best option by far) at a place with room for extra stub tracks for layups, like Temple (i am not being biased there is just a good bit of land at track level that looks like it used to be some sort of sidings for local industry) or someplace further north.
Regarding putting anything in north philly, it really depends on where.
Sean@Temple
I thought the one good thing about the SEPTA regional rail system is that it is 100% electric
One bad thing about that is that when the Center City Tunnel opened, the City of Philly closed Reading Terminal and canceled the SEPTA diesel services, to Pottsville/Reading and Quakertown/Bethlehem. That was not such a good thing.
Do I think that 100 percent electric is better? I sure do, but don’t kill service that you suddenly want to resurrect later on—instead, electrify the previously diesel services. Or if that’s too uneconomical for you, maintain some of the old status quo by keeping Reading Terminal open. Is some service better than no service? Don’t know about you, but I prefer some to none.
R, 24 drop-off: inside the original driveway which encircles the Frankford Depot.
8 drop-off: West side Frankford Avenue in new driveway (actually, the original asphalt around the garage is unchanged, there are just new berths alongside the structure, as in NTC, instead of buses pulling directly onto Frankford Avenue), alongside Pratt Street.
Everything else drops off at the same place it loads.
R to East Falls/Wissahickon Transfer Center: two berths where the circles split by Bridge St. The original circle goes west on alongside the depot, while the new one actually intersects Bridge St. The southside pavement of Bridge Street is a part of this loading area. And from what I saw, one berth is for WTC, the other for Henry & Midvale trips.
3 to Strawberry Mansion/Market-Frankford Owl Bus: North side Pratt Street. There are TWO berths, as both routes are rather frequent.
5 to Front & Market: Behind Route 3 berths.
8 to Olney Terminal: Inside the private driveway, alongside Bridge Street. This is a new loading zone in the original circle.
14: two berths on the west side of the new building. I think trips for the industrial areas use the berth closer to Pratt Street, and Oxford Valley Mall trips use the next one over. Neshaminy Mall trips were spotted in both.
19 to Krewstown/Torresdale Station: under the El structure going into the yard, on a new driveway, where it meets Bridge St.
20 to Franklin Mills Mall: two berths in front of the 14.
24 to Rockledge/Bethayres/Southampton: also in the original circle, behind the 8.
25 to Spring Garden Station/Pier 70: On Bridge Street, outside the original circle.
26 to Germantown: temporarily inside the original circle, between the 8 and 24, and directly across the pavement from the 25.
58: two berths on the east side of the new building. Unsure if they have any significance, such as one being for trips via Haldeman Avenue, short trips to Tomlinson Road/Rennard Street/Bells Corner, and the other for County Line Road and Neshaminy Mall trips.
66 to City Line: temporarily behind the 25.
67 to Comcast/Franklin Mills Mall: Behind the 19.
73 to Port Richmond: Temporary spot across Bridge Street from the 66 (and alongside the yard)
84 to Franklin Mills Mall/Somerton: Anothr temp. spot, this one behind the 73.
88 to either destination: best to say, this one is directly across the new building from the Route 8 drop-off.
As best I can guess, the double berths (aside from Routes R and 3/Owl) are meant for when local and express runs are made on those routes, especially the 20. However, the 14 has so many trips and destinations, they could need it to avoid congestion.
Oh, channel 3 was filming there to get reactions... and it rained.
Chuck Greene
The first passenger passed through the turnstiles at 4:20am and was interviewed by at least two TV stations (6 ABC and Fox 29). The bad news for Eagles fans was that he was wearing an Edgerin James jersey (not really a problem, except James plays for the Indianapolis Colts, but I'm getting a little anal here...)
At 4:39am, the first revenue train departed from FTC, running closed-door express to 15 St/City Hall. The train consisted of 1056, 1055, 1003, 1004, 1164, 1163. (This is normally a dead-head train from Bridge St yard to 15 St/City Hall, then all stops to 69 St).
The first full all-stops revenue train departed at 4:49am, consisting of 1195, 1196, 1121, 1122, 1198, and 1197.
The first eastbound revenue train into the new FTC from Center City arrived at 5:24am, consisting of 1187, 1188, 1203, 1204, 1013, and 1014.
First bus arrival and departure from the new bus berths: 5549 (Rt 20: Frankford Terminal via Keswick/1052 block) arrived at 3:58am; this same bus was the first to depart from the new berths 4 minutes later as a Rt 14 to Neshaminy Mall.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
The other is two new tracks into NY-Penn from Jersey, so Acelas and Metroliners don't have to compete with commuter trains for track space. And a fourth track added to the Harrison area.
Now, the New Haven Line segment of the NEC is another story...
The RR's treat Amtrak like an annoyance.
As said my Dictionary.Com an anoyance is a nuisance and Amtrak is a good example of one.
No. The freight railroads are being stupid. To them, any passenger rail is an annoyance. With Amtrak, they only have to deal with one. They'd be a lot sorrier to have to deal with several along their networks.
At risk of sounding like a British politician from the 1940s, NATIONALISE THEM ALL!!! Merge all of the silly squabbling companies into one, divide it up into regions, and call it British Rail. The King is dead; long live the King!
CN (I think) runs a scheduled road. UPS demands a certain amount of hours shipping time from point to point as a provision of its contract, and making those 'Z' trains come at the same time every day simplifies things for the dispatchers.
Coal and other bulk commodities run as extras since they fluctuate.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If Metro North could get its act together and raise track speeds up to 120/135 and get all 4 tracks back in service then that could knock 20-40 minutes off the travel time to Boston which would make a big differance.
You are talking out the wazoo on this subject as usual. Constant-tension catenary is necessary even for commuter trains, so that speed restrictions during hot weather get eliminated once and for all. Also, over the permitted 135-mph distances, upgrading to 150 mph would indeed be minuscule (not miniscule) but the greater potential exists following upgrading of catenary to increase speeds on far more segments of the corridor than the currently 135-mph ones.
As for Metro-North/CDOT getting their collective “act together”, if you want faster speeds on their tracks, then it is a signaling issue, not a catenary issue, especially since they are upgrading their catenary wire to constant-tension.
The PRR catenary is a good, solid design and should be left in placeThe PRR catenary wire system is an antiquated, undermaintained dinosaur and should be replaced ASAP. You don’t go forward by staying backward.
Most speed issues on the corridor have to do with curves and bridges, not the wires. If the wires are the problem it is frequently because of "ramping" up and down for low clearance bridges, which is not the catenary's fault, but the bridge. PRR style is actually better on the curves as it maintains a constant rate of curvature, rather than the jagged line of the CT stuff. Look at the Shore Line in CT and Mass. It has CT cat, but there is only 150 running on less than 20 miles of track due to the geometry of the line. The cat caps things to 135, track geometry kicks in from there in.
The first segment of PRR cat (to Paoli) was installed after the NH installed nearly its entire system. It is a superior design, time tested and rugged. Replacing it is not worth the money nor the delays to install it and Amtrak agrees as all the new catenary for both the EWK station and the Secaucas Connection uses the PRR style.
Incidentally, British railway stations have a 3-letter code system too. My favourite one for remarkable stupidity is ZFD (Farringdon). What WERE they thinking? Such obvious choices as FAR, FDN, FGD and FRR are unused.
Just goes to show that 3rd Rail rules!
Is there a website I can get info on things like the various Class of track (you refer to Class 8 in the above post) and the related speeds?
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=49&PART=213&SECT;ION=9&YEAR=1999&TYPE=TEXT
and here
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=49&PART=213&SECT;ION=307&YEAR=1999&TYPE=TEXT
rooted at this page here
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_99/49cfr213_99.html
Especially out here, where every thing is single tracked.
If you are sharing rail with freight, then there will always be slow freight trains in front of you. If you are on single track,...
The ONLY way HiSpeed Rail can exist is on new dedicated ROW.
And that is probably LESS EXPENSIVE than rebuilding 19th century freight lines. (Read curves, switches, slow traffic.
Yup, it is expensive, but it will eventually pay for itself, if not in cash money, then in environment, reduced wear, maint and construction on Interstates, reduced dependancy on air travel etc etc....
Elias
Amtrak’s portions of the NEC mostly have sufficient signal and track upgrades to permit Acela Express 150 mph operation (by this I mean the former Pennsylvania RR segment south of NY Penn); the only barrier, used as primary excuse by Amtrak at present, is not having new constant-tension catenary on the former PRR.
Metro-North is upgrading its former New Haven RR catenary to constant-tension, but not upgrading signals, so the fastest speed allowed on that stretch would be 90 mph, wherever track is straight enough to permit such. Also, thanks to the Metro-North/Connecticut DOT ban on Acela Express using their active-tilt system on their rails, Acela Express will not really be permitted to increase speeds on that segment of track—something about having a 10'4"-wide train tilting on tracks with 11-foot track centers.
As I said before, the focus needs to be on average speeds, not top speeds
There are three ways of increasing average speed, namely minimizing dwell time at stations, increasing the acceleration of your train (which can result in discomfort to passengers if too rapid) or increasing top speed of trains.
If you can get a start to stop average speed up over 80 mph, you have a very compeditive rail service
You make a good case for merely retaining Metroliner Service trains and not bothering to increase top speeds on the NEC. You would make a teriffic consultant.
On the NEC increasing speed on a few track segments to 150 from 120 or 135 will not provide a very big average speed bost
That is correct—you need very extensive segments of trains running at 145 mph or better. Apparently, only 45 miles of the 225 miles between NYP and WAS was originally supposed to be upgraded to 150-mph running, which is pathetic. The PRR ROW could potentially support 140-150-mph running on about eighty-five percent of its length, I am postulating.
Eliminating bottlenecks, terminal slow running and diverging movement delays are currently more cost effective ways of boosting average speed
Not cost-effective, but necessary nonetheless. Also, focus on merely this as opposed to the big picture is not the way to do it.
I will not comment on Metro-North since they are not the biggest problem faced by Amtrak in terms of high-speed running on the Boston-Washington corridor.
Oh, I don't know about that. One of the best things you can do for high speed rail on the NEC is make sure Amtrak (or whoever the operator may be in future) has two tracks all to itself the whole way. That means four tracks wherever you've got commuter rail running.
MNRR can't really run all its commuter trains between New Rochelle and Stamford on 2 tracks. A fifth track there would be a whole bundle of money.
Even if Metro-North does use more than 2 out of 4 tracks, the four track line means there's some track assignment flexibility there.
However, you get more bang for your buck increasing a given number of miles from a top speed of 90 to a top speed of 120, than increasing the top speed on the same number of miles from 120 to 150.
Example: 60 miles at 90 mph takes 40 minutes, but increasing it to 120 mph reduces the time to 30 minutes, or a 10 minute savings. The further increase to 150 mph only reduces the time to 24 minutes, or a 6 minute additional savings.
Note that these are all relatively small numbers. The real killer on the NEC is the places the trains go 30 mph, such as the bridges, through New Rochelle, and various other places. Raising a mere 10 miles from 30 mph to 60 mph would also save 10 minutes.
Also: The tilt trains make it possible for Amtrak trains to negotiate curves at up to 110 mph (vs. 75 for Metroliner), That redces the need to decelerate, and then accelerate again, and increases the mileage at which the train can stay at runnimg speed.
Of course, you could argue that there are places where increasing the top speed from 120 to 150 costs relatively little compared to places where you want to make 30 into 75.
But work is hapening. Catenary is being replaced. ROW work is happening, albeit slowly.
Amtrak should do what it can, as much as possible.
After finalizing plans Saturday night for the Sunday morning excursion, I went out at 8:15 from Newkirk to go to NYP to meet Choo Choo and Greenberger. After a semi-dull ride on the Q train through the rathole, the C/R made the usual wrong announcement at 14th st-U.S. saying the #5 line as one of the lines you can transfer to (The #5 line on Sunday was not running below 149th st/GC. Back to the trip, I got out at 34th st, south side and walked one block to Penn station, down to the new NJT ticket area. It was so HOT there, that Choo Choo snuck up from behind to surprise me. We agreed that Greenberger would drive to Harmon Cove station, take the 10:07 to Suffern, and return back to HC and drive into the city. I bought my RTX tickets at the machine, and what a surprise for me. Not only did I get my RTX tickets, but I received a One Way ticket to Short Hills (apparently the last person who purchased RTX tickets to Short Hills, picked up only one ticket instead of the required two.) Hey today was my lucky day.
We drove through the Lincoln Tunnel and onto Route 3 to the RR station. Wow what a desolate stretch it is, the station has no platform, a couple of factories behind the sheltered waiting area, and there are two speed bumps coming off the overpass leading into the station. Across the bridge on the other side of the RR station is a high-rise residential complex, we had some spectators looking over the bridge facing the station. There were five tracks (I will number the tracks #1 through #5 for description purposes with #1 being closest to the parking lot and waiting area and #5 is closest to the apartment complex.) Track #1 was ripped apart (One of us was tempted to take some RR ties and plates home, but it wasn't me). Tack #2 would be the train arriving. Track #3 was not usable (much of this ROW will be ripped apart because of the new track connection north of where we were leads directly to the new Secaucus station).
We had fun for 20 minutes, noting the work train and crews about 200 feet south of the station dismantling Track #1. At 10:06, a 4 car train comes in, we got on (of course, we were the ONLY ONES who go on and got off at that station.). And Greenberger knows that I will post this but Greenberger used NJT for the first time today. Some stations we saw on the trip up Suffern have no shelters (how do you wait for a train in a huge rainstorm.). We took own seats in the last car, near the anti-railfan window, and the seat in front of me had a LOT of used tickets on the floor as garbage. Water cooler came in handy for us too. But a puppy in a pet cage was barking through most of the Suffern trip. Garfield station platforms look no bigger than tiny Manitou station on the MNRR Hudson Line (and that is small). I saw a street fair outside Ridgewood station, that station was pretty busy inbound on a Sunday morning. (Although Ridgewood is busy, but I don’t ride NJT often enough.). Nice ADA ramps. At Glen Rock station, I compared the zigzag to the crazy ramps at 42nd st/PA Bus Terminal IND station back in the city. We arrived at Suffern, with the mighty Harriman State Park and the Catskill Mountains in the distance, dwarfing the NY State Thruway about 1,000 feet from the RR station. No place to feed my hungry stomach there and we had to leave at 11:14 AM, (only 15 minutes to take pictures.) Choo Choo and Greenberger did their thing, the entire train was modeling for their cameras. Noted the TVM’s at Suffern did not accept bills, and Greenberger wondered how would someone pay $380 for a combined Rail/HBLR ticket from Port Jervis to NYP, without using bills (The machines did not accept the bill slot.). Hey, NJT slaps you with a $5 surcharge on the train, and the Conductors were happy to collect the surcharge saying out loud on the return trip “$5 SURCHAGE ON BOARD TRAIN, AVOID IT. BUY YOUR TICKETS AT THE STATION OR AT THE MACHINES.”. We arrived back at Harmon Cove where reporters from a local NJ newspaper greeted us on the farewell tour. After a brief chat, we took off back into the city, on the way back towards the GW bridge we saw a special truck with rail wheels trying to configure on the RR tracks, and LOCKING them together. This process too 5 minutes but it was fun to look at, conversion from truck to RR Truck, LOL. I was let off at the elevator/Cabrini side of 190th st/IND station, it was a nice day to picnic at Fort Tryon Park.
But my attempt on the A train was a horror show, in brief. I was at 190th st from 1:15 to 1:40 when the A train finally showed up. And that was after 2 battery runs northbound and two more northbound trains before the first battery run train came back down from 207th st. Took that IMPOSSIBLY CROWDED TRAIN to 34th st. walked one block to IRT 7th Ave for a 2 train, which had the wrong NEXT stop signage (from Chambers st, it skipped over to Winthrop st.) Just face it, I was glad to be back home at Newkirk at 3:15 PM.
Just another day in paradise on the crazy NYCT subway system.
Q R68 2848
NJT Comet I 5119 (to Suffern)
NJT Comet I 5733 (from Suffern)
A R38 4012
D R68 2691
A R38 4012
2 R142 6364
Q R68 2753
The machine at Suffern did accept credit cards, which I'm sure is how most would buy a $380 ticket, but I pushed the cash button.
The C/R wasn't charging the $5 surcharge; he was warning people to to buy tickets in advance next time or he would charge it next time.
Sorry you had a long wait for the A, but at least you got an R-38 in the end. I got stuck with an R-44.
They could have at least run it from 168 to WTC.
I thought the F was Southbound through Cranberry tube as per last weekend's advisory
Anyway they really needed the C this weekend, without the L the A was more crowded...
Don't know why the C couldn't have turned at 145th instead, as it's done other recent weekends.
And, why not? I never had family or friends in New Jersey and I lived at the far end of Brooklyn where it took me over an hour to get to Penn Station, Grand Central, or even the various Brooklyn stations of the LIRR. That never stopped me from riding the various commuter rail lines available. A TRUE buff will do whatever it takes to ride a train or a bus, not just whatever might be "convenient"!
You don't like Peter Witt streetcars?!?!?!?!
Well phooey to you too!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The PCCs were the car of the future.
They still are!
No idea whether the conductors were charging people who had to buy tickets from them, I bought mine in advance.
Well, I can't remember how many times I've ambled over to Jersey from Brooklyn. By train, by bus, by foot, by ferry. I've done things like get to Newark Penn Station, either PATH or NJT, walk south past Newark Airport, and further down to the Goethals Bridge to walk back into New York. And the reverse of that trip too.
I've taken buses just to get to various Pascack Valley branch stations, like Moonachie, to catch the p.m. outbound trains up a few stations. Then just walked until I ran across a PABT-bound bus line. Gone on rides along the RV branch, got out and walked north to the Gladstone branch and got back to Hoboken. Riding the old Erie MU trains, with open-able windows. I've hitched over the Outterbridge (sp?) Crossing to Perth Amboy, walked to Carteret. And many other variations on that theme.
All I'm saying is, it's very much possible to do the trip if you were so inclined. It's true that each railfan has their own inner reasons why they enjoy it. I enjoy the infrastructure of the rails a great deal. And there are other, perhaps less easy to define reasons why I do it. I have to say though, you're missing out on a large chunk of the metropolitan areas' total rail mileage if you ignore New Jersey. Even for rapid transit interests, there is plenty over there to ponder.
I could railfan the commuter rail systems, but it's generally just not worth the time or expense unless the trip doubles as actual transportation. (I have taken Metro-North to Yonkers when I could have taken Bee-Line and saved 50 cents and a 15-minute walk.)
The effort you have put into describing consists, with car types, serial numbers, frequency diring first hand observation and your willingness to spend hours on a platform waiting for a particular railcar type to appear, suggest otherwise.
The effort you have put into describing consists, with car types, serial numbers, frequency diring first hand observation and your willingness to spend hours on a platform waiting for a particular railcar type to appear, suggest otherwise.
Not really, how many times have you heard David write about how he waited at Mineola's platforms "describing consists, with car types, serial numbers, frequency diring first hand observation and your willingness to spend hours on a platform waiting for a particular railcar type to appear"?
Sorry for all the separate postings.
Hmmm, should we or shouldn't we?
Just for the record, we were issued memos regarding the new TVM's on the Main/Bergen Line. It stated that the suurcharges will not be charged on that line until October 1st, to give the riders a grace period to learn about the machines.
I've also got some photos of an addition to the Milwaukee Art Museum designed by Calatrava, so you can get an idea of his style. They can be found here.
Kudos to the Port Authority for selecting such a talented architect... Hopefully this project will become the crown jewel of NYC's transit infrastructure.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Personally, I think of Lower Manhattan as New York's Alstadt, and am not partial to futuristic designs. The best place for those is west-Midtown.
I am glad, however, that the plan is to include a really tall skyscraper, and there hasn't been a storm of objections to this. I want to get everything back -- shopping, office space, transit, restaurant, observation deck, broadcast tower.
...2800 innocent people.
What? It isn't Stillwell Ave / Coney Island? :)
--Mark
Hopefully this project will become the crown jewel of NYC's transit infrastructure
I can think of many other extant and past structures that deserve the appelation of “crown jewel”—but I do not believe that a post-modern monument to ego would sufficiently earn that moniker.
Besides, this is what I would prefer to stand on the WTC site before any other structure. JMHO; don’t know how many others share it…but there it is.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
But things built in the 2000s should not look like they were built in the 1900s (decades, not centuries) just because nobody is creative enough to come up with some nice looking modern buildings.
I do not consider the Howard Beach station an eyesore. It's a matter of taste.
In the middle of a residental neighborhood, with no buildings of this like, I think it is.
And even though not exactly the same situation, I say the same about the new Stillwell terminal.
The new Stillwell Terminal is not in a residential neighborhood, it's in a rundown commercial area. Do you think the station should look like its rundown neighbors?
Thank you! There's nothing I hate more than a new building masquerading as an old one.
But that doesn't look Dual Contract to me. It looks like Pitkin Avenue--station, no clue.
P.S. If you could post a link it would help. The following code should work:
<IMG SRC="http://www.nycsubway.org/img/iX000/img_XXXX.jpg">
Substitute the first digit of the image number (7) for the first "X" and the full image number (7581) for the other 4 "X"s. Like this:
<IMG SRC="http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i7000/img_7581.jpg">
to get
avid
If nothing else, it eliminates the need to explain to someone looking for "Van Wyck" the necessity of asking "which Van Wyck?" or having to explain the difference.
An ounce of planning is worth a pound of customer service.
That got me to wondering whether there was any location outside Manhattan where more of the great subway street names (terminals/former terminals/lines) come together.
As an aside to the tangent, in the middle of this is Brendan Byrne plaza. If I remember correctly, he was a governor of NJ (who's name was removed from the Meadowlands Arena because Continental Airlines came up with some cash). What was his connection to the area?
Jimmy
David
Jimmy
People thought because part of the station name is "Brooklyn Bridge" City Hall was right upstairs.
Conversely, if one touches the third rail or the catenary without touching ground, you simply become part of the high voltage circuit, and would not be electrocuted. This effect can be seen when power utility lineman stand on an insulated bucket, connect the bucket onto the power line, and are able to freely work on the line while it is hot without being killed. Even on high voltage power lines of 69,000 volts or more this is done.
Likewise, when tower crews climb a live AM Radio broadcast tower, they either jump onto the tower leg, or step on it from an insulated step and simply become part of the antenna. I've done it myself many times, even on AM towers transmitting as much as 50,000 watts. Of course, I wouldn't advise trying any of this unless you have been highly trained in working around high voltage (and in the case of radio, RF). I just explain it for reference purposes.
The London Underground has two power rails (+300v, -300v) used in addition to the two running rails. This localizes any stray current to the road bed.
A few trolley systems used the same system as a trackless trolley where there are two overhead wires (+600v, 0v). This eliminates stray current.
* At an interface between dissimilar materials carrying current, you may have electrolysis, where one side erodes. The problem with rails carrying current is that steel is not a perfect conductor, so some current 'leaks' to earth where it may find its way to a metal pipe. Somewhere along the pipe the current will flow back into the ground and this is the point of electrolysis and in time the pipe will be compromised.
Quiz: Why is trolley and subway power generally positive with respect to ground (say +600v) as opposed to being negative (-600v)?
I don't know. Always assumed it worked better with electrolysis
protection that way. Do you have a definite reference?
I guess electrolysis is an issue with which you've needed to
familiarize yourself given TMNY's ongoing quest with Central Hudson.
How is that going, anyway?
My house (and many others) has an electrical supply where current is carried by Romex (three wires inside insulator). The grounding wire (as in other houses) goes to the main drinking water supply pipe (copper, which replaced galvanized steel).
Out of curiosity, how long until this is eaten away?
Same deal. Whenever I write specs, aluminum is specifically prohibited.
Even with steel pipe, electrolysis of the grounding electrode
connection is not a big deal. It doesn't generally carry
any current unless there is a fault. As long as the connection
has been made with an approved clamping or welding method and
is kept dry, or is covered with that goop, things should be fine.
Incidentally, if you are relying on a cold water pipe for ground,
make sure the connection is on the street side of the water
meter. Make sure you don't have a length of PVC pipe mixed
in there somewhere.
"Incidentally, if you are relying on a cold water pipe for ground,
make sure the connection is on the street side of the water
meter. Make sure you don't have a length of PVC pipe mixed
in there somewhere."
My electrician did just that.
My R142s cannot benifit from DC power...all motor systems are AC which run off electronic convertors. The Edison/Tesla/Westinghouse
war ended one hundred years ago and trainsets did not require the DC torque. Third rail should have been 650 VAC. CI Peter
I thought they run off inverters and not convertors.
Back in the day is was simply a running rail mounted on insulated brackets, today...well I still think it might be steel.
Trackage is not only bonded together with metal plates full of holes (fishplates) but copper braiding installed by the use of explosive bolts.
BUZZZ Wrong answer. It is welded in place by a thermite style reaction...see below:
BTW, excellent use of the term "fishplate". Here is the US they are generally called "splice bars".
Yes, still steel.
Trackage is not only bonded together with metal plates full of holes (fishplates) but copper
braiding installed by the use of explosive bolts.
>BUZZZ Wrong answer. It is welded in place by a thermite style reaction...see below:
Not always. There are other types of bonding in common use, including
the style in which a hole is drilled either into the head of the
rail or the web and the jumper is connected using a tapered
expansion sleeve.
D-----O
Suppose the diagram represents the 4 wheels on a truck, with one wheel having a flat spot.
Are the top two wheels connected to each other electrically? Or are they insulated from each other?
If they were connected to each other, then I'm having a hard time understanding how the signal track circuit and the ground track circuit can be separate.
Yes, the wheels on each axle are intimately connected to each
other electrically. With no train in a track circuit block,
AC voltage, applied to one end of the circuit across the rails
with a limiting resistor, completes a circuit through both
rails and the track relay, which is across the rails at the
other end of the block. The relay picks up. When a train is
in the circuit, the axles short out the AC voltage. The resistor
limits the total current to a small value (about 5-10 amps).
Effectively, the track relay and the train axles are in parallel.
Since the track relay has a resistance (I should say impedance)
of about 2 ohms and even a single axle has a contact resistance
of under 0.1 ohm, most of the current flows through the axles
and very little flows through the relay, and the relay drops out.
http://www.osha-slc.gov/SLTC/radiofrequencyradiation/
I did it for years and just look at me now. FCC First #P1-2-43516, issued 10/70, renewed lifetime.
There are also differing limits of exposure to the "general public" and to workers. If I am working at or near a tower that is hot, I can legally only remain within a certain distance of that tower for one minute out of six. We are required to measure radiation at transmitter sites and mark lines with red paint on the floors of the transmitter building and tuning houses at the point where RF radiation becomes excessive and the one minute rule applies.
Fortunately, most transmitters are well shielded so it is not a problem in the building. At WNEW-AM (now WBBR) where I was Chief Engineer there is a room in the transmitter building that contained the "phasing" equipment (splits the power between four towers). That room was extremely "hot". The room, however, was entirely lined with 4x8 sheets of copper hard soldered together to make a virtual copper room that was grounded. Because of this, outside of the room, radiation levels in the building were fine -- even when standing directly in front of the transmitter.
When you get into really high frequency stuff, the whole thing is different, but the principles are still the same. (When I worked on 110 of the World Trade Center North Tower for a couple of radio stations, I would often have a headache when I left the building. I always wondered if it was due to the massive amounts of RF from the TV's, FM's, two-ways, and microwave stuff up there).
The bottom line is, you have to be careful around RF, just as you do around 600V DC traction, or utility AC. Many of the rules and principles are a bit different because of the higher frequencies (especially when you get into UHF and microwave), but it can do a number on you if you're not careful.
Ah, I'll bet not you're asking how the signaling systems work as they need isolated track circuts and how can this traction current jump the insulated rail joints (IRJ's).
Well there are three methods. If you have a DC propultion system and a DC track circut you need to have a return traction rail w/o IRJ's and a signal rail with them.
If you have a DC propultion system and AC signal circut, both rails have IRJ's, but at each IRJ you have something called an impedance bond. Through the magic of coils and windings, the bond allows the DC current to pass, while blocking the AC signal. DC current impedance bonds are quiet large.
If you have an AC propultion system and an AC signal circut you still have impedance bonds, but it just filters an AC traction signal of one frequency with a signal frequency of another. For example, the PRR used a 25Hz traction current and a 100Hz cab signal current. AC/AC impedance bonds are noticably smaller than their DC brothers.
I do not know how AC/DC propultion systems or DC/AC systems are handled.
Thank you and have a nice day,
Flushing7
1) I've never been stopped by MTA or NYC police for any reason (though I have summoned them and helped them a couple of times). So the second part doesn't apply to me (I know it's optional).
2) You are not making clear what people are signing on to. That is, you don't show exactly what is being sent. That's a no-no.
This is very important, esp. these days.
The MTA website tells me that the MTA is a "public-benefit corporation chartered by New York State" and implies that the NYCTA is simply a part of the MTA.
But sometimes I see posters referring to the NYCTA as an "affiliate" of the MTA, and other posters who appear to imply that subway itself belongs to New York City.
Similarly the 'private' bus lines appear to be operated under contract to the city DoT, rather than the MTA, but at the same time they accept MTA MetroCards.
Can anybody help me understand?.
The MTA is an umbrella agency which does not actually operate anything.
The New York City Transit Authority (legal name, "popular name"--"MTA New York City Transit") operates the system on behalf of The City of New York. It also contracts for goods and services on behalf of The City of New York.
The New York City Transit Authority is legally characterized by the MTA as an "affiliate" of the MTA.
As to the private bus lines, acceptance of MetroCards only indicates a contractual agreement, not unlike an interline ticketing agreement in days of yore.
It is said that JFK Airtrain will accept MetroCard, but it still a Port Authority facility, not MTA.
If this sounds a little confusing, it is nothing compared to the structure of the BRT/BMT and many railroads.
The city turned the operation of the transit system over to the MTA in 1968, but not title to the subway system (tracks, tunnels and stations) themselves.
At the time, city benefits were much richer than state benefits, so the transit unions insisted on remaining "city" employees. So even though NYCT is really a state agency, and non-represented employees are part of the state benefit system, transit workers are officially hired under city civil service rules.
This mess confuses anyone. In official government employment statisitics, NYCT employment is tabulated under "local government", but the LIRR, MetroNorth, Long Island Bus and virtually every other transit agency in New York and New Jersey are tabulated as "state government." Keep that in mind when think tanks talk about how relatively large New York City's local government is.
The city turned the operation of the transit system over to the MTA in 1968, but not title to the subway system (tracks, tunnels and stations) themselves.
No, the city turned over operation of the city-owned transit system to the New York City Transit Authority in 1953. The TA still operates the transit system.
The MTA characterizes itself this way:
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority (“MTA”), a public benefit corporation of the State of New York (the “State”), has the responsibility for developing and implementing a unified mass transportation policy for The City of New York (the “City”) and Dutchess, Nassau, Orange, Putnam, Rockland, Suffolk and Westchester counties (collectively with the City, the “Transportation District”).
Note: policy. About operation it says this:
Facilities and Operations
[...]
Transit System. The Transit Authority and MaBSTOA operate all subway transportation and substantially all of the public bus transportation within the City (the “Transit System”).
So even though NYCT is really a state agency [...]
The TA is
[..] a body corporate and politic constituting a public benefit corporation. It shall consist of three members. One member shall be appointed by the mayor, and one member shall be appointed by the governor [and the remaining member by the other two as chairman].
The Transit Authority was always a city-state agency, created at the city's request to insulate the transit system from city politics. Didn't work very well, did it?
I liked the TA logo better especially on the side of a shiny new R32 (express).
Service between the Howard Beach and the Jamaica Station AirTrain terminals and all other stations will cost $5 for a single trip. Monthly passes offering unlimited trips will cost $40. The state-of-the-art terminals at Howard Beach and Jamaica Station will enable airport passengers and employees to make more than 1,500 fast, easy, convenient and reliable connections every day between the airport and the A, E, J and Z subway lines; Long Island Rail Road trains; and buses.
The pricing makes a lot of sense. Air travelers who are using it instead of expensive taxis or difficult buses will pay more per trip. Working stiffs who are just going to work pay much less.
Not to me. Why charge more to go to the airport by transit than the PATH charges, and use the money to subsidize drivers who ride for free. If the Port Authority needs money, how about matching NYCT fares and TBTA tolls?
If you want to play the "who wins" game, you could just as easily say that a cheaper, faster ride to the airport amounts to a subsidy to the airlines in their competition with Amtrak.
Transit should fully sustain itself or make a profit when market conditions allow.
As to the NYCT/TBTA fare/toll issue, just because NY loots its citizens and visitors every chance it gets doesn't mean that everyone else has to follow suit. Ever hear the line in the Dylan song about people who "don't bring you any higher, but get you in the hole they're in"?
The Howard Beach Station is right next to long term parking. Currently both are served by a free shuttle bus. Once Airtrain is operational, the bus will be gone, there will be a $5.00 charge at Howard Beach, and a free Airtrain ride from the parking lot.
Yes drivers pay for parking, but I doubt they will be asked to pay more. That's a charge for securely storing 2,000 pounds of metal in a valuable location, not for getting to the airport.
(Transit should fully sustain itself or make a profit when market conditions allow.)
That's fine with me. But what is that passenger facility charge for? And why is the Airtrain free (drivers who park) or reduced cost for everyone except those using transit to fly from JFK? Sure it should be more expensive for a single ride than for a monthly. If it had been $2.00, I wouldn't have complained.
It can probably only be used for capital improvements, or something like that. Once AirTrain is done, the PA has to find some way of funding its ongoing operations. They could have used parking fees to pay for it, but instead, they're opting to charge a $5 fare for transit riders.
I wonder if any of that $5 will go the MTA? As I understand it, the $5 AirTrain Newark fee is split between the PA and NJ Transit. (Not sure where the extra $2 surcharge for NY Penn Station passengers goes.)
Jamaica Station is getting a $387 million renovation (this is beyond AirTrain's terminal). The PA contributed $100 million of that.
A parking fee should include the shuttle to reach the thing you are parking for. Doing it any other way is nickel-and-diming.
Maybe you should stop searching for ways that you think mass transit riders are getting screwed, Every time NY area motorists put 10 gallons into their cars they kick $1.40 into the PBT tax, 85% of the transit portion of which goes to the (City) Transit Authority.
That's the same bus as the one from the Howard Beach station. It's free for subway riders and it's free for parkers.
You know few parkers are going to be using the AirTrain except to get to the airport.
Your point?
A parking fee should include the shuttle to reach the thing you are parking for. Doing it any other way is nickel-and-diming.
I disagree. The proper train fare is calculated per passenger, per ride. Parking fees are calculated per vehicle, per day (or hour). One cannot be converted to the other.
But even if we accept your view, is the PA raising its parking fees to pay for AirTrain?
Maybe you should stop searching for ways that you think mass transit riders are getting screwed, Every time NY area motorists put 10 gallons into their cars they kick $1.40 into the PBT tax, 85% of the transit portion of which goes to the (City) Transit Authority.
That comes to a fraction of a cent per mile. Wow! I feel so sorry for them.
Look at how much public space in the city is set aside for motorists. Look at the cost of land in the city. Can you really say with a straight face that motorists aren't the beneficiaries of a huge, ongoing gift from the city?
That's the same bus as the one from the Howard Beach station. It's free for subway riders and it's free for parkers.
Do would you oppose continuing the free bus (for both)?
You know few parkers are going to be using the AirTrain except to get to the airport.
Your point?
That their only use of AirTrain is airport access--that they are not using AirTrain to reach other destinations.
Maybe you should stop searching for ways that you think mass transit riders are getting screwed, Every time NY area motorists put 10 gallons into their cars they kick $1.40 into the PBT tax, 85% of the transit portion of which goes to the (City) Transit Authority.
That comes to a fraction of a cent per mile. Wow! I feel so sorry for them.
Yes, I know the view that motorists be taxed any amount for something they may never use is fair game.
Look at how much public space in the city is set aside for motorists. Look at the cost of land in the city. Can you really say with a straight face that motorists aren't the beneficiaries of a huge, ongoing gift from the city?
All motorists pay this, including (especially--since they drive more miles overall) those who don't come in the City.
But I'll give you a different "never mind." Everyone says ESA is "for Long Islanders." Nonsense, it's for the City's economy. If $XX billion is going to be spent for Long Islander's transit I want it spent ON Long Island to implement light rail to Long Island employment centers and shopping, not to bring commuters to the City a few blocks closer to work.
And I include downtown access in that equation.
The area around Grand Central is already built up. ESA, therefore, has little opportunity to spur an increase in jobs (except perhaps for the Sunnyside Station in Queens). It will simply improve the quality of life of those already working there, or perhaps encourage more people to move out of the city to Long Island.
I don't know how much else Mayor Mike understands about the City's workings, but he understands that.
The stop for the AirTrain will be in the middle of the parking lot. In order to connect to Howard Beach a second station had to be built -- for passengers who haven't paid anything. Alternatively, PA could have just had people drag their luggage through the parking lot from the subway to the parking lot station -- or they could have just sealed off the connection.
A second idea. Just about everybody who rides the AirTrain between two intermediate points (i.e. not Jamaica or Howard Beach) will be either an employee, an airline passenger, or a person who has parked their car in one of the lots. Those people have all contributed revenue to the PA in some way shape or form.
If you make the system free at the endpoints you get any number of joyriders and people "just passing through". Live in Jamaica and want to go to the beach? Take the AirTrain to Howard Beach and connect to the Rockaways on a hot summer Sunday afternoon. How much time does that save? Live in Howard Beach and need to get to Jamaica -- hop the AirTrain it's free!!
CG
Is the parking fee going up when AirTrain starts running?
Not that it really works out, anyway. Parking is charged per vehicle, per day. AirTrain standing space is occupied per person, per ride. Subway transferrees are charged per person, per ride.
In the past shuttle buses had to circle the entire parking lot, so that brought them right past the Howard Beach station. Why not stop and pick people up?
Are you suggesting that the shuttle bus only stops at the subway station by accident? I find that hard to believe. The PA shuttle bus began serving the subway when the JFK Express stopped running. Even though the existing bus ran nearby, I'm sure the PA had to increase service to accomodate subway passengers.
The stop for the AirTrain will be in the middle of the parking lot. In order to connect to Howard Beach a second station had to be built -- for passengers who haven't paid anything. Alternatively, PA could have just had people drag their luggage through the parking lot from the subway to the parking lot station -- or they could have just sealed off the connection.
The Howard Beach AirTrain station has two entrances. One has turnstiles and charges a $5 fare. The other has no turnstiles and charges no fare. The two entrances are separated by a fence. The nearest pedestrian connection is at least a mile away.
A second idea. Just about everybody who rides the AirTrain between two intermediate points (i.e. not Jamaica or Howard Beach) will be either an employee, an airline passenger, or a person who has parked their car in one of the lots. Those people have all contributed revenue to the PA in some way shape or form.
And you don't think nearly everyone transferring from the subway at Howard Beach will have airport business of some sort?
If you make the system free at the endpoints you get any number of joyriders and people "just passing through". Live in Jamaica and want to go to the beach? Take the AirTrain to Howard Beach and connect to the Rockaways on a hot summer Sunday afternoon. How much time does that save? Live in Howard Beach and need to get to Jamaica -- hop the AirTrain it's free!!
Wait a minute. Who ever suggested that the Jamaica leg not charge a fare? The Jamaica leg isn't replacing an existing free service. It also carries passengers nonstop a good distance from the airport. A fare of about $5 seems perfectly appropriate there. The Howard Beach leg replaces a free shuttle bus, and it runs only to the subway station directly across the fence from the parking lot. The fare, strictly speaking, isn't for the ride at all, since it's possible to ride to Howard Beach and exit without paying a fare; it's merely for crossing a fence.
Not that it really works out, anyway. Parking is charged per vehicle, per day. AirTrain standing space is occupied per person, per ride. Subway transferrees are charged per person, per ride."
I doubt the fee is going up. Long-term parking fees have always included a ride to the airport. I can't think of a single airport parking facility in the country that charges for a ride to the airport.
"Are you suggesting that the shuttle bus only stops at the subway station by accident? I find that hard to believe. The PA shuttle bus began serving the subway when the JFK Express stopped running. Even though the existing bus ran nearby, I'm sure the PA had to increase service to accomodate subway passengers."
I'm suggesting that they did it because it was easy to do and because the station exit was there. I don't really have any idea -- was the parking lot station exit there before the JFK express started running? Given the 20+ minute headways on the subway shuttle busses I find it hard to believe that they increased service when the JFK express stopped running.
"The Howard Beach AirTrain station has two entrances. One has turnstiles and charges a $5 fare. The other has no turnstiles and charges no fare. The two entrances are separated by a fence. The nearest pedestrian connection is at least a mile away"
And had there been no subway to connect to and/or no additional revenue to gain they would have never built that station -- instead stopping at a single station for the long-term lot. When was the last time you saw more than just a handful of cars parked that far out in the long-term lot?
"And you don't think nearly everyone transferring from the subway at Howard Beach will have airport business of some sort?"
Well, to hear the (admittedly biased) crowd on this site it sounds like the biggest whiners and complainers about this are people who want to railfan the system and/or drop off friends at the airport. My comment was based on my incorrect assumption that you were advocating no fare at either end of the system.
"The fare, strictly speaking, isn't for the ride at all, since it's possible to ride to Howard Beach and exit without paying a fare; it's merely for crossing a fence."
And I guess you view the subway fare as being not a fare for a ride, but the cost of having the honor of walking through a turnstile. The fence is simply a means to ensure that all riders pay a fare of some sort to the PA. Those on one side have paid their fare through the parking fee -- the others will pay a cash fare.
I can understand disagreeing with the amount of the fare from Howard Beach, but I don't buy the argument that the ride should be free.
CG
So you agree that the parking fee doesn't include payment for an AirTrain ride. It doesn't now, and it won't once AirTrain service begins.
Hmmm, I just checked the parking rates. Very interesting. Someone just stopping by the airport for under 12 hours pays $3 -- that's $7 less than the fare from Howard Beach, and it comes with free vehicle storage. Someone flying out for just one day pays exactly as much as someone transferring from the subway, but gets free vehicle storage. A family of four going away for the weekend (figure 36 hours) pays $10 less than a family of four transferring from the subway, and also gets free vehicle storage.
If the parking fee includes the AirTrain fare, then it doesn't include much else.
I'm suggesting that they did it because it was easy to do and because the station exit was there. I don't really have any idea -- was the parking lot station exit there before the JFK express started running? Given the 20+ minute headways on the subway shuttle busses I find it hard to believe that they increased service when the JFK express stopped running.
Of course they increased service. There were more people riding the buses; service had to be increased to meet increased demand. That's the way bus services work.
And had there been no subway to connect to and/or no additional revenue to gain they would have never built that station -- instead stopping at a single station for the long-term lot. When was the last time you saw more than just a handful of cars parked that far out in the long-term lot?
There were a lot of cars there the last time I visited.
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. Tell me if it goes something like this. Those nice, fine, upstanding people who park in the parking lot don't like the buses. They'd prefer an ostentatious train instead. So we'll give it to them, at no extra charge. But wait. Those freeloaders coming off the subway will complain. Well, okay, we'll bring the subway to them. We'll even give them their own station. But we won't let them get away with freeloading anymore. It's $5 for them. Oh, while we're at it, let's let parkers use that station as well, but of course we wouldn't dare charge them a penny.
And I guess you view the subway fare as being not a fare for a ride, but the cost of having the honor of walking through a turnstile. The fence is simply a means to ensure that all riders pay a fare of some sort to the PA. Those on one side have paid their fare through the parking fee -- the others will pay a cash fare.
The parking lot is a parking lot, not a fare control area. Presence in the parking lot is not evidence that one has paid a fare -- in fact, it's evidence that one hasn't. The parking fee covers vehicle storage.
I can understand disagreeing with the amount of the fare from Howard Beach, but I don't buy the argument that the ride should be free.
Why not? It's a direct replacement for an existing free service. It's still a transfer, and it's apparently no faster than the bus. What new service are subway riders paying for?
Jamaica is a different story. The Jamaica branch replaces a $5 bus, and its trip time will be much shorter -- it will have no intermediate stops, and the Van Wyck is often clogged with traffic. For the Jamaica branch, $5 is low.
Or to put it another way: the Jamaica branch is targeted largely at people who currently take cabs, while the Howard Beach branch is targeted largely at the people who currently ride the shuttle buses. For cab riders, $5 is a steal. For shuttle bus riders, it's a ripoff.
Let's hope someone has the sense to realise that if they ran a bus from Howard Beach to JFK, they could undercut AirTrain substantially and still make a fortune.
Don't dismiss free vehicle storage. It cost me $110 to park my car in Coney Island the two weeks I was away, far cheaper than parking at LaGuardia or locally. It will make much more sense for a family to drive to JFK rather than take the train. I think the Port Authority either has a fantasy that transit riders will pay for the whole thing, or actually wants Airtrain to fail (see, told you so).
Actually, I don't think the PA has given very much thought to Howard Beach at all. In the grand scheme of things the transfers from the A train are pretty much a pimple on an elephant's ass.
What's the current ridership on those shuttle busses? If I'm not mistaken there are two bus lines which each operate every 20 minutes. Figure that the average bus carries 25 people and you have 150 people per hour. Over 18 hours that's 2,700 people per day -- which is probably a high end estimate. Multiply by 365 days per year and $5 per ride and you get just under $5 million in total PA revenue from Howard Beach. Of course if you factor in that a sizable percentage of those riders are employees who will likely pay $1 per ride, the estimate goes down considerably (if 50% are employees, then revenue is just $3 million).
If you think $3 million or $5 million "covers the whole thing", you're delusional.
CG
No, I don't agree with that at all. It includes transportation from the parking lot to the terminals. Whether they choose to provide that transport by bus or AirTrain isn't material. Look at it this way. What would be the value of parking in that lot if transportation wasn't provided? Looking at the question from that perspective you could say that the entire cost of parking is intended to cover transportation to the terminals.
"If the parking fee includes the AirTrain fare, then it doesn't include much else"
Based on the above, I'm inclined to agree with that. You discovered the (absurdly) low parking rates about the same time I did. I had always assumed that the rate structure was the same as at LGA's long term lot ($24 first two days, $10 per day thereafter).
"Of course they increased service. There were more people riding the buses; service had to be increased to meet increased demand. That's the way bus services work."
Oh, ye of too much faith... Are you suggesting that headways for the long term lot were 30 minutes in the days before the end of the JFK express?
"I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. Tell me if it goes something like this. Those nice, fine, upstanding people who park in the parking lot don't like the buses. They'd prefer an ostentatious train instead. So we'll give it to them, at no extra charge. But wait. Those freeloaders coming off the subway will complain. Well, okay, we'll bring the subway to them. We'll even give them their own station. But we won't let them get away with freeloading anymore. It's $5 for them. Oh, while we're at it, let's let parkers use that station as well, but of course we wouldn't dare charge them a penny."
It goes a little something like that. Without the inappropriate class baiting remarks, though.
"The parking lot is a parking lot, not a fare control area. Presence in the parking lot is not evidence that one has paid a fare -- in fact, it's evidence that one hasn't. The parking fee covers vehicle storage. "
Says you. What would the parking lot fee be if there were no transportation to the terminals? It would be nearly zero. So clearly the parking fee is nearly 100% to cover transportation to the terminals.
"Why not? It's a direct replacement for an existing free service. "
So what. Aquafina water is a direct replacement for an existing (effectively) free service. Yet people happily pay more than a dollar per bottle. Nobody has taken away your "free" access to the airport. They're just moving it to Lefferts Blvd. and the Q10.
"For shuttle bus riders, it's a ripoff."
So don't use it. In time, hopefully the PA will catch on and lower the fare at the Howard Beach end -- but I fail to see the logic that it should be zero.
CG
So don't use it. In time, hopefully the PA will catch on and lower the fare at the Howard Beach end -- but I fail to see the logic that it should be zero.)
Once again, the Passenger Facility Charge was used to cover investments in the airports. Profits from the airports, which might otherwise have been used for investments in the airports, were used to cover the PATH. The Airtrain is a part of the airport.
I agree it shouldn't be free -- nothing should be free, because anything that is free is wasted, abused, and poorly maintained. I also agree that it doesn't make sense to charge people simply transferring from one airline to another. But the charge is simply too high.
The single ride fare should be no higher than the PATH, both at JFK and at Newark. Certainly the marginal operating cost of a ride on the driverless Airtrain is no higher than that -- the PFC was supposed to cover the capital costs.
The PATH fare and Port Authority tolls should be raised to MTA levels -- this time let NJ share the recession pain rather than shifting it to NY. That would make up for the lost airport revenues many times over. Perhaps it would even permit the Airtrain to LaGuardia, as was promised when the PFC was imposed, and then on to Long Island City.
We had this flame war two weeks ago.
The existing shuttle buses are free, and the pricing makes no sense at all. Someone else cited some documentation that showed that a ride on the Airtrain from Howard Beach to the terminal takes LONGER than the corresponding ride on the bus. That's right, the existing bus is actually faster than the Airtrain, and that's despite the fact that the bus circles the entire parking lot, to pick up anyone waiting at a shelter, before heading out to the terminal. Now, the PA wants people to cough up five bucks so that they can get a slower ride to the terminals.
The only reason buses seem slow today is because of long headways. I timed it last month. I spent 20 minutes sitting in the bus at Howard Beach, waiting to leave, and then 15 minutes of actual travel time, before I got off at the terminal.
Well, my SO's going to be coming home from overseas in a few weeks. This time, I think I'll check out the Q10, so the next time I won't have to.
Acela hits 150 mph in places, 135mph on sections of NYP-WAS and can handle curves at speeds up to 110 mph (vs. 75 for the Metroliner).
Amtrak had talked about allowing the train to do 140 mph between NYP and WAS. I hope it happens.
The Budd Metroliner EMU's hit 164 in a test.
The NYC experimental Budd Jet Car hie 168 in a test.
The US Air Force hit mach 8 with a tracked rocket sled out at White Sands.
This site presents conflicting info about the top speed achieved by the Budd Metroliner set. It says 164 in one place and 156 in another place. Maybe they got it mixed up with the Silverliner set? Do you have links to good info about the the first three tests you list above? Thanks.
Yes, Lexcie probably mixed up the Silverliner Set with the MetroLiner. I got my info from Pensy Power II and the Great Trains of North America books.
In 1966, the New York Central tested a locomotive equipped with twin jet engines salvaged from a scrapped B-47 aircraft that reached a top speed of 183 m.p.h. Though criticized as a publicity stunt, the test eventually led to the successful development of Amtrak's high-speed Metroliner and gas turbine trains.
For marketing reasons, I do not think that the TA will look back. What they should really celebrate in 04 is the centennial of the IRT subway. Now that is cause for a celebration.
I looked at that site, and while the current map may have a basic design, it is nowhere near as boring as most of the other maps.
Look at in the 1960's how colorful the covers were (like the 1964 World's Fair map)
The 1958-63 map was fairly plain and simple. The only exception was the 1964 map. Look at that and the 1967 map. Which train is depicted? THE NEWEST ONE! There is no reason why the map should be marred with pictures of Redbirds any more than the subway would be accurately represented by the picture of a horse.
The 1964 map's cover was designed in the way it was to depict a special event. The subway's 100 anniversary is such an event, but the Redbirds are not significant to the centennial.
I'd have the Triplex, and the superior BUDD R-32 to the R-36.
Heck you could fit the train bullets WITH some of the rolling stock of the past. Put them on the side of the map and then its all good and I would like to see strip maps making a special comeback too :-D. No doubt that this map would be a collector's item.
I suggest reissuing the Diamond Jubilee poster that listed some of the equipment from the Lo-V to the R-44, but update it for the centennial.
--Mark
There's no point in confusing people about a change that won't take place for another two months. By the time the change actually happens, everyone will have forgotten the details.
At least I give them credit by telling us that the 9, B, < Q >, and V lines do not run on weekends.
It is nice to see they went back to something that works.
?
Does not run on weekends.?
It's some weird Unicode thing. In IE, it's a question mark; Netscape shows a diamond-question mark. In the source code, it simply shows up as a space. Trying to reproduce it here just gives me a square:
�
Yes, it was removed at Newkirk on Sunday. Guess who removed it and is in that person's possesion?
The MTA's constituent agencies (NYC Transit, etc.) have Presidents.
David
I took the B36 down to Sheepshead Bay (from Nostrand) and took the Q to 57th Street. I did this every two weeks for about three months. At the center, my father would meet me after he was finished with work and we took the trip home on the NX! Those rides on the NX (always at the railfan window) were some of the MOST memorable rides I have ever had on a subway. We rode from 57th Street all the way to Brighton.
When did you first ride alone?
How old your first time? (on topic)
My daughter just turned 11, and I am just getting ready to allow he to walk father afield. The big issue isn't the subway, it's crossing streets and getting lost. She has to show me she knows the street grid, so if she turns the wrong way, she can still find her way home.
If all goes well, I'll allow here to ride transit by herself next year on specific to/from routes. I'll stop driving her to the othodontist, for example. As for just taking a ride into Manhattan and walking around, that would be a year or two later.
We have one friend who fall in the "toss them in the pool and see if they swim" category. Her daughter has been going all over for a couple of years, and is very jaded. We, however, are more liberal than virtually everyone else we know. No one else's children walk to school alone.
It probably would be a good idea if she has some idea of how to deal with service interruptions and diversions before riding the subway alone. In other words, just knowing what trains to take for a specific route, e.g. home to orthodontist, may not serve her well if something goes wrong and she has to take an alternative route.
Yeah I plan to teach her all about G.O.s, and five different roundabout ways to get anywhere. Bet she'll be the only kid to know.
Not that many adults know, either.
Reading, writing, 'rithmetic and Subway Naviigation/G.O.s...
I remember when I learned about express tracks and local tracks. I was on the 1 train with my mother. As we entered 72nd, she noted that we were on the express track and said that she thought the next stop would be 96th. I had no idea what difference it made which track we were on, but she was correct.
--Mark
But the general issue is freedom to go around strange places without known supervision. Us, friend's parents, school trip, etc.
The big issue for me (which I told them years ago when we were in a situation where we could get separated, such as trolley riding in Philly or Metro in DC) is NOT knowing everything about a route, but knowing what to do if things go wrong, which could be separated from us or friends, ending up in a strange place, etc.
Basic advice ... go to a policeman, an employee like in a store, or a change agent, and other obvious choices. NO friendly adults who are willing to "help out."
That's good advice.
I've ridden public buses alone for a lot longer than that. The only reason I didn't ride the subway alone in that time is that I hardly ever rode the subway at all. I'm sure there were some years that I didn't even set foot on a train.
So I had most of Brooklyn, Queens and half of New York. I never crossed the line because I thought it was a fair deal. I had a lot of great days riding around including rides on BMT Standards on the Franklin Shuttle and R1-9's. I even took the 14th Street Canarsie Standards but only in Manhattan.
Jimmy
I hear this all the time, but I never see any evidence to show that.
Sure, it is a different world, but for the worse?
Back when I was a porch monkey, over 30 years ago, I used to hear scare stories about drooling child molestors lurking behind every bush. Sorta like the ones about razor blades in apples at Halloween, the Chester-the-Molestor stories get passed on from generation to generation despite little or no factual background.
Remember the ticket blitz?
Remember the rash of school shootings a few years a years ago?
Parents must be concerned for their children's health and well-being. They're not being responsible parents if they don't. Where another struggle lies is in making sure that those concerns don't smother the kids.
But do you remember the millions of children who walked to school by themselves and survived? There are only a few children that don't.
Million-to-one shot Doc, million-to-one.
You know what changed in thirty years? You went from being a kid to being a parent, and you forgot how important it was to be able to make up your own mind.
What happens to him will happen because he doesn't have the internal resources to deal with it. And he gets those resources on his own. Listen to him, and think back.
--Mark
--Mark
You mean more violent than the one where two countries aimed missles at each other that could destroy all of humanity?
Perception is reality, I guess.
No it's not.
Oh. So what world did you grow up in? One of the first lessons taught to children is "Don't talk to strangers". That's been around forever. So things must have been pretty violent all along. I have an opinion on the subject of why we perceive it so.
Fact is, grownups today are worse than grownups years ago. A simplistic statement, maybe. But like, I don't think my parents (now in their mid and late 70s) ever had the massive input of psychotically violent and blatently sexual images that I've had to grow up with. Life was simply too hard to waste alot of time in satisfying the many fringe urges all humans are subject to at times. Not that it didn't occur. But it wasn't acceptable to display such things with no thought to who may be affected by it, as is the story today. The barriers were broke down and hardly anybody thought about the repercussions.
It just seems that the royal "we" can't stand to see those younger versions of ourselves have some fun. "We" have never wanted to "grow up" ourselves, so we forgot why we HAVE to. It's like, we're not strong enough or ballsy enough or smart enough to enable a peaceable world. Instead of putting our foot down we put our kids up...on a pedestal. But what a lesson to them that is!
"Son, your Dad can't stop those bad guys from doing what they want. So here's my plan on how you can rabbit your way through life. First lesson: learn how to hop away into the bushes."
I'm not sure that's true. Certainly in Black neighborhoods, there is a "who are you looking at" culture, but it seems to be diminishing from what it was. And as for other neighborhoods, there were plenty of punks and gangs back in the day. My father-in-law, who grew up in Flatbush, said that the nastier kids in his 'hood used to go over to Ocean Parkway and beat up Jewish kids for recreation. And when he decided to walk around Brooklyn Heights one day, he took at billyclub to the rear and was told to get out of neighborhood where he didn't belong.
As I get older, more and more of the stories start to come out, about the former friends you never hear of, and what things were like growing up. There was one friend whose father ran off, and whose mother spent the rest of her days earning money by scrubbing floors while the friend basically raised himself. The friend who went to Korea, got screwed up, came back and starting getting into fights in bars all the time, and committed suicide, etc.
No wonder people moved away from the city. Of course, many in my generation are fleeing from the suburbs.
After my mother drove me to Flushing, I rode the 7 to Queensboro Plaza and changed for a still-shiny new R42 RR to ride the Astoria el for the first time- after hungrily viewing it for years from the car approaching the Triboro. Then I rode back to Lex with the intent of crossing the platform to get the EE back to Queens in order to ride the 11th Street cut and see previously unseen local stops Steinway, 46th and Northern. Somehow I foolishly forgot it didn't run on weekends. So I walked downstairs, got a 4 or 5 to Grand Central (seeing my first IRT train repainted in TA gray with blue stripe color scheme), the 7 back to Flushing, then the Q16 home. I had ridden the bus myself for the first time a few months prior.
For the next year or so, I would often ride to Midtown and walk around to F.A.O. Schwarz, different bookstores and a hobby shop that sold the latest Matchbox cars. For all I know, that could've been the train store on 46th Street so popular with some on this board.
My first BIG solo trip was in the fall of the seventh grade, at age twelve: the West End el for the first time, after having previously been on the other three lines to Coney escorted. That's when I learned that Hagstrom is NOT perfect as far as the West End line's path between 9th Avenue and Fort Hamilton. That was also my first time on the B train. The R32s still had the black capital B in a white box at the bulkhead instead of the usual 'bullseye' letter.
Mark
Flushing7
-----------------------
August 4, 2003
Lawrence G. Reuter
C/O MTA
370 Jay Street
Brooklyn, NY
11201-3814
Dear Mr. Reuter: My son and I are both strong railfans and along with a group of people like us from Sub Talk (a subway message board at www.nycsubway.org) have been extremley annoyed with MTA employees asking us to stop taking pictures or to show a permit. So like many people I decided to contact Ms. Alberteen Anderson at (718)694-5160 and according to her they were not giving out permits due to National Security which is understandable. A month later a sub talk member brought up to the message board MTA’s Newly Posted Rules Of Conduct on the internet at http://www.mta.info/nyct/rules/rules.htm which states that photography is aloud. Besides that the DiscoveryTimes Channel was aloud to take video of every single station in the whole subway system to be aired in an October special on DiscoveryTimes Channel. It turns out that the group was stopped while a station assisant check their permit which according to Ms. Anderson they weren’t giving out. Please inform employees about the Rules Of Conduct or if this is truly national security issue please post on SubTalk so the whole railfan community understands.
Thank you for your time,
Larry Polansky
"extremley" should be:
"extremely"
"assisant" should be:
assistant
No reason to mention the NYTIMES since it's a DIFFERENT type of permit they received/requested...
That's like pitting a High School Custodian vs. President Bush
Thanks
Dave
Sorry,
Flushing7
Still.......
LEARN the difference between COMMERCIAL recordings and NON COMMERCIAL recordings.
NON COMMERCIAL Recordings = Buffs = Questionable Intent =
Unprofessional Tendencies = Security Issue = Bellevue
--Mark
Lawrence G. Reuter, President
MTA New York City Transit
370 Jay Street
Brooklyn, NY 11201
You have to be respectful if you want to get his attention.
I've met Ms. Anderson three times personally well enough to know
that TV PRODUCTION-COMMERCIALLY related Subway videorecordings
ARE FAR DIFFERENT from your NON COMMERCIAL HOME USE videotaking.
COMMERCIAL TV PERMITS ARE GIVEN OUT (and are ARRANGED in advance).
NYTimes isn't your average Joe and Jack out joyriding on trains.
"TV Network" garners a hella lot more funding and public exposure for TA
than "oh, just for my home library.... and a website" railfan excuse.
If you were doing a MADE-FOR-TV venture on the subways, and had suffice
funding and backings of a network (Discovery) YOU TOO WOULD GET A PERMIT.
REMOVE THE NYTIMES from your script because it's irrelevant
(COMMERCIAL TV VIDEO versus NON COMMERCIAL HOME USE purpose).
And learn the difference between the MTA and New York City Transit. They're not the same thing.
It's no secret anymore that this board is monitored, yet this discussion of photography and videography keeps ebbing and flowing like the tide. So why doesn't one of the "monitors" take this feedback back to NYC transit management and post something clearly on the web site regarding the policy? Or update the rules of conduct that discusses photography? Or take the time to respond in this forum on the subject the way someone from CTA did a few weeks ago. You'd do us all a great service.
And bandwidth would be cut down considerably :)
--Mark
This issue puts all parties into a difficult position, and in my opinion the MTA has done all it can to preserve a personal liberty, while trying to accommodate the atmosphere of law enforcement vigilance which support efforts to pre-empt potential terrorist acts.
Unfortunately, the world did change on 9/11 and not for the better as far as these activities are concerned. Hopefully this will change in time, but meanwhile, if confronted, it is probably in everyone’s best interest to understand the overall situation, and be as cooperative as possible to MTA employees or law enforcement officials.
The distinction is important, for experience in these past 21 months has proven that police officers tend to be less informed of MTA’s legal policies regarding on-system conduct vs. general (street) law. The number of potentially conflicting policies, laws and training
protocols is literally mind-boggling at this juncture, as the enforcement community continues to try and come to grips with the situation.
The end result so far (especially in a New York City on perpetual “orange alert”) has been that anyone doing almost anything is subject to individual interpretation of this jumble of regulations, be they contrived or sanctioned. As general examples, tourists have been subject to similar scrutiny for the “simple” act of videotaping the Manhattan skyline or other landmarks (the Brooklyn Bridge, for instance) from certain locations. As well, anyone driving into Manhattan at anytime, especially in a van or pick-up, can be subject to search.
The debate can rage all day whether such intensive enforcement scrutiny (especially in the absence of a specified probable cause) is justified or even legal. Nevertheless, to most individuals with the power to interdict what are perceived as “suspicious” activities, it is now simply part of their jobs.
What can the legitimate subway photographer do? Persevere; Be informed; Be polite; Be cooperative. When asked for identification or purpose, give it; when told a permit is needed, (though it is indeed not) be polite and plead ignorance. If by remote chance a summons is issued, play by the rules and see it through.
The situation remains fluid, and in the absence of specific legislative action (a very remote possibility) will not likely change anytime soon. While a well intention letter or petition may sound helpful, there are simply too many parties with differing training and enforcement regimes for there to be one guiding principle at this point. Though subway photography is a legitimate and in some ways even important leisure activity, a touch of perspective goes a long way toward working through these tense and trying times. For better or worse, if enforcement abuse is consistently identified, the matter will inevitably be remedied in the courts or through changes in governing law. That is simply the way the system works.
Difficult as it may seem, we would probably be better served to give credit where due, exercise caution in our travels and do our part to enable employees and officers, particularly temperate ones, to do their jobs.
Good Luck and Good Hunting!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
You said it beautifully. I agree 100%. That's my plan and I'm sticking to it. Oh, you might want to add that you should carry around with you a copy of the rules, printed out from mta.info. I don't know what good (if any) the printout will do for you if you are stopped as I've never had a chance to use them yet, but they have potential for being useful.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Jimmy
Incognito
No actually, it isn’t just you. I am not either looking forward to the arrival of Shark-nose Re-hashed. I would rather see EMD come out with something like the GP70PHM instead, which they could, easily…
Industrial styling is a dead art in the US, has been for years. Budd won awards for the Sundberg-Ferrar styled M-1s, Bombardier sure isn't going to win any for the M-7, nevermind Kawasaki's brickliner....
Coul they do a better job? Sure. Would the public care? Who knows? Do today's designs suck on many levels? Yes. But when you're on the public kitty and there's no acountability for anything, even taste, it's who you know and what strings you pull that gets the job done..
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
--Mark
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Service Alert
Posted on:8/4/03 4:08:40 PM
Due to a customer injury at the Pacific St. Station, Brooklyn bound N, R, and W trains are bypassing the Pacific St. Station until further notice.
What kind of customer injury would necessitate completely closing a major station in both directions indefinitely?
Robert
Peace,
ANDEE
Anything I can think of would be really, really bad:
o Major crime that requires a sealing of the crime scene.
o Some kind of attack that requires the station to be searched for other devices.
o Some kind of construction accident that requires investigation of any additional unsafe conditions.
Let's hope not.
Koi
Robert
David
Posted on:8/4/03 5:48:20 PM
Due to weather conditions, the n and r trains have been rerouted over the Manhattan Bridge. There will be no n and r service at stops between Pacific and Canal Streets
But there is one already. so it must mean a rehabilitation.
Also, ADA is coming to Junction Blvd on the 7 and the 168th Street IND Columbia Univ. stop
Old news but good news.
I'm surprised about spring 2004. Last I heard design was ongoing, but the project was de-funded for construction in the 2000-2004 capital plan, with construction deferred to 2005. Perhaps they came up with money in this plan, and will start a little sooner.
I hope so. This connection will be a boon for Brooklyn's F riders. For those with unlimited ride cards it isn't so much that it's free, it's that it will be faster than going all the way up to street and back down again.
Another key transfer is the Jay-Lawrence connection. That one is not as far along in design.
This would be for people coming off northbound trains.
But i don't have an answer till now
What would be some appropriate events that should be planned?
Could this website influence what will take place? I think it should.
Read this PDF document
Thanks
The MTA operates the subway and I doubt if they would do something like that.
All the R-142s should be spray painted red! With black tops and tan interiors! Perferably by the MTA, not graphitists.
The J,M,Z should be renamed "The Jubilee Line."
Chambers St (JMZ) should receive its centennial cleaning.
Let the 30 day Metrocard set you back a "century."
Stick some clean tiles over the top of some dirty tiles.
Give Route "L" a snazzy new shade of gray.
A few hours' work with a power washer at each station would really make a huge difference. I can't think of a better way to celebrate the system.
Why not use the color scheme of the IRT instead of the drab Redbird scheme?
The Redbirds are no more historical than the R-142s.
I'd like to see Manhattan closed to non-commercial traffic for the entire day (it will be a Wednesday), with street fairs on every street, and everyone arriving by subway.
Should be an interesting Subway Week, I predict. 7 days or better yet, a month long of festivities in store for us next year.
(http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i26000/img_26149.jpg)
The 44s had the route bullet inside a white ring over the route's color background. The 46s were the solid route color bullet on a black background. Also, it looks like the cab's inner door has the narrower window of the 44s, not the wider one on the 46s.
By the way, you can send Dave a note via Feedback.
Plus go into Historical Maps on the main page, you will find a lot of intersting stuff there.
D, 4th avenue express to west end
M, to Chambers
W to take the M's place as the 4th avenue local to Bay Parkway
N, 4th avenue express
R, 4th avenue local
JONN
Whats the sense to keep the W at Whitehall when it can replace the M at Manhattan. Btwn Canal St and Lower Manhattan the W and M are the SAME option running nearly parallel to eachother
I was on a 2 train at about 5:30pm that was stuck between 34th and 42nd for 10-15 minutes when the news came through. Passengers were directed to take the A or C as an alternate.
I went upstairs to assess the scene. Already, the crowd at the west escalator to the 7 had become unmanageable. I turned around and went down the east set of ramps, but when I got to the bottom, the passageway to 8th Avenue was impassible. I went back up to the main 41st Street booth, where an argument was taking place between a crowd and the S/A: the crowd was asking for block tickets and the S/A was insisting that he was told that service was running as normal. (By this point, station announcements were suggesting the M104 as an alternate.) I urged him to call the police to do something about the crowds, but as he picked up the phone, one of the C/R's (I think) came up to the window and insisted that he distribute block tickets. He somehow managed to get approval and started passing them out.
I went upstairs and walked to 6th to catch the M104, in an attempt to secure a seat. Little did I realize how large the M104's headways had grown over the years since I rode it regularly; by the time the bus showed up (three M42's, two express buses, and a New York Waterways bus came first), it was already packed, and the B/O was telling people that there was another bus just five minutes behind his.
The crowds waiting at subsequent stops were so great that we could only take on a few passengers at each, with much boarding through the rear door. After a few stops, two passengers actually began regulating bidirectional traffic flow through the rear door; the B/O protested a few times but eventually gave in.
At 63rd we were passed by a packed PROMOTIONAL BUS (according to the sign; I take it the B/O didn't know how to set it to SUBWAY SHUTTLE). At 73rd we were passed by an empty NOT IN SERVICE bus (there'd better have been a good reason for a bus on the street to be not carrying any passengers during a subway outage). Whatever the situation was underground, there was no visible problem at 79th.
I finally got home ten minutes ago.
How was crowding on the IND and at Columbus Circle? Were any A's or D's sent up the local track to serve diverted passengers, or were local passengers given the shaft as usual?
Look in the schedule. But that's not the issue. In an ideal world, the C would have come between the previous B and the following B. But it did not. Actually I don't know if the previous train was a C or a B. So it could have even been the B that was running behind schedule. I just like picking on the C.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
What does the no motion bypass switch do?
Prevent the door from being opened by the crew?
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?mqmap.x=342&mqmap.y=407&mapdata=ULfEtX9%252beHfUrZtLAPNMvfk02AaCu3N7XY71nRJCkCxagzC3dwLzSkPlqZg8bHB5ggnBWAGTTps0HkbUxMX2lH6q58%252fZCFMv2r1igJK8zvW75pFFNTyIzDeNQE68gdpPYgbi2i8QLy4zlw%252fyoLbS1VmG79Jd7N2hZFqU4zoMwnEFc3H47rqiv1bsIZLOVKRgerv8XgmetrBXV%252fQqoD5YAtPiPe4AX%252fpADXLZJtPhmTS4PqJqHQDoJYZg9xf2gmsgAG0ZV8p3YvpR4u%252fvUjrsv4fffCw1cUrTphsbTluiKP2w%252bemUk%252bYyRp5h2F4LcFjJndANVHirbxO%252bjE8zU71bF%252fnKS8MPWwzo&click=center
A train uses the track from Atlantic to ENY/BJ.
Ran in the last years trains there?
Relays-only or with passengers?
The connection between Canarsie and Broadway was temporarily severed with the reconstruction, and abandonment of part of the Atlantic Ave on the L. The connection, IINM, will be reinstated when the project is complete.
Ran in the last years trains there?
I'm not sure what you mean there.
Relays-only or with passengers?
It has not been used in revenue service for quite some time (the 70's?). The connection was intact for non-revenue moves until the Atlantic reconstruction started a few years ago. Although the connection will be reinstated, I don't believe there is any plan for revenue trains to use it, just deadhead moves.
I believe GO's of that sort are classified as revenue service. Regular service, no.
Darn! You get all the good GO's!
You are right about the regular vs revenue. I should have said "regular". Technically as long as track is in service, (whether regularly or not), there is always a chance of a revenue run going over it.
Case in point, these can all be called "revenue" moves, however, none of these tracks are in "regular" use:
-The Chrystie connection (Farewell to the redbirds trip-Dec 2002, -MOD trip-June 2003, etc)
-The Hammels Wye (MOD trip-June 2003, various recent GO's)
-Express on the 1 (a few times this year already)
-Etc, etc, etc, the list goes on.
I'm trying to think of which sections of revenue trackage I've never been on. Aside from some switches, the only ones I can think of are the middle track between Rockaway Blvd. and Lefferts, the Chrystie Street cut from Essex to B-L (I've been on it in the other direction), and the SB express track from BB through Ocean to W8 (I was on the NB during a GO last summer, on an N train). I'm not sure, but I may have also not yet ridden the NB express from Church through 4th. (Can anyone think of some obscure tracks I might have missed?)
I'm trying to think of which sections of revenue trackage I've never been on. Aside from some switches, the only ones I can think of are the middle track between Rockaway Blvd and Lefferts
I did do the section of the Liberty El express between Hudson and the Rockaway Branch, many years ago. I forgot why we skipped Rockaway Blvd and 88-Boyd, but I think it was midday track replacement one day when I was going to the beach.
On the June MOD trip, we were supposed to go to Pitkin yard, but dear 'ole 1575 left us at Howard Beach, so I missed the center through 80-Hudson St. Of course I never did the express through to Lefferts either.
the Chrystie Street cut from Essex to B-L (I've been on it in the other direction),
Heh, we each have an opposite on that one. I don't have that one, but I had the Essex to Brd-Laf, this past June.
--Mark
Send an IM to AIM user L2 Nine for an invitation.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Thanks
Jimmy
PATH was fine but as soon as I got to 33rd St the fun began.
There were problems on the IND and everyone was trying to get up the stairs to switch to the BMT - I figured swince I am going uptown I wouldn't have a problem. On the BMT, I had just missed an R after which only Q trains came to 34th St. So I decided to take a Q to Times Square and get the shuttle over to GC and pick up the Lex from there instead of at 59th.
The subway mezzanine at GC was flooded - at least 3/4 of an inch in spots all but a few turnstiles were closed and the stairs/escalators blocked off. Anyone exiting had to go over to the out of fare zone passgeway to the shuttle in order to get to GCT.
On the Lex there were signal problems all over especially between 86th and 96th. Flooding was also a big factor. It is a good thing that the #5 I was on had good A/C because we crawled from GC to 59th, then again from 59th to 86th and from 86th for 103rd St. I found out that at 68th St there was a sick passenger so the #6 were blocked. Thankfully that cleared by the time I got to 125th. A #6 express pulled in just as I got off the #5.
I thought that maybe things would get better but NNNOOOOOOO. Because of a switch problem just south of 3rd Av/138th we inched - not crawled but inched between 125th and 3rd Av. It wasn't until after we got out of 3rd Av that things speeded up.
With all the work they are doing you would think they would do something with drainage in the constant trouble spots.
Based on the weather forecast we may have the same thing tomorrow.
Maybe we should trade in the R142s for an ark.
It might have been faster to get out and wait ten years for the 2nd Ave line.
People were looking at us. They must have been thinking we were going to be in some sort of trouble bring an M up to 57th Street.
This was this first time ever that I never got off a train since becouming a T/O. I Layed Up the same train I took out of the yard. I was on the train 8+ hours strait. Man as the saying goes "whe it rains it pours."
Robert
Robert
Did they have you change your markers to some unorthodox combination?
I sat there after relaying with red/red up top until someone could decide what the little D train to Queens was going to turn into when it headed back southbound. When you're sitting on a relay lead, it's best to have four reds up there until you go to kick the reverser. I was being held to become an F train apparently, then maybe an E, then they decided to just send me down the G line back to CIY since 53rd Street was blocked both ways. Whatever they ultimately didn't decide, I had my little book with me for those potential weird markers.
When the railroad lays down in a serious way, it would have been nice if there were purple marker lenses or a (?) for the front rollsign. :)
Robert
I would only encounter more problems once I was heading back to Manhattan via a W. We just got to Union Square and we held for about 5 minutes or so. The C/R explained it was due to 'systemwide delays' and 'signal problems', all probably due to the storms. I get to Times Square and board a 7 Express. It leaves the platform...only to get tripped! It was pretty surprising, well to me anyway. The C/R explained several times of how the train got tripped and that the T/O would try and investigate the situation. We eventually got moving...after people crowded in at 5th and Grand Central. Trains were being held at all of those stations. I got home with no problems.
As for the Q, I had to wait about 10-15 minutes for a (Q) after missing the Q diamond and they were jam packed [this was around 7:45-8pm]. This in reference to the Q I missed and the next Q and the southbound R nearly went over the Manhattan Bridge after being held at bypassing Prince for about 5 minutes. What normally would take 20 minutes to 1/2 hour on the Q took nearly an hour to get to my stop.
That was the ONLY Q diamond that was running last night, seriously. Rest of the night, only the Q local was running, I did not see anymore R40 slants. Did you see me last night?
And Canal St/Bridge platform smelled (like always) the closed Fresh-Kills landfill, YUCK! With major leaks at the N/R stairs at the West/North end of the S/B platform.
There has to be a broken sewer line that runs somewhere through that station. Every time I go through that station (which is fairly often), at one spot on the platform it always smells like someone took a crap right there. The stench is unbearable. Even worse than Flushing. Each, and every week, I have to hold my nose, or I'll pass out.
With the whole place flooded, I'm sure the entire platform must've stunk.
Going from Union Tpke to Kings Hwy (Q).
Board Manhattan bound E at Union Tpke, with the railfan window, expecting a nice fast ride to Queens Plz for an R/V to get the Q. Nope, can't be. We leave Union Tpke unbelievably slow, very annoying watching those 40 MPH speed limit signs go by knowing we aren't even close to that. Anyway, even though I waited some time for my E we still passed an F at 75th and they let us go first. We come to a complete stop just outside Forest Hills, and we see an R32 directly ahead of us. I figured it was an F at the time, as if it was an E they would have sent the F we passed by, but now for some reason I think it was an E. We were too far back to tell. Anyway, everything stops for 2 minutes and the driver announces congestion as the cause. Then the train in front of us starts moving and we pull into Forest Hills parallel with an R32 R pulling in from underneath on the local track.
Both my train (the express E) and the R close doors at the same time and we pull out at the same time. Little did I realize what was in store. We were slow to 63rd Drive (though I think this was only because of the timers), bypassed 63rd at a snail's pace, and then stopped while bypassing Woodhaven at a red light. A V that we had caught up to took off ahead of us, and the R32 R came up from behind and went at regular speed. It isn't until a second V passes us that we get moving. During the stopped period, the conductor announced several times that due to flooding affecting signals at 23rd Ely, Queens Plz, and 36th, there's congestion and the trip to Manhattan will be slow. We stop and go (the stops being about three times as long as the goes) all the way to Roosevelt to meet up with the R behind the one I saw at Forest Hills. Sick of the E, and seeing that there is no sign of slow downs on the local track, I run over to that R. The E I was on and the R I'm on now both close down at the same time. The E takes off and my R drags, stopping for several minutes before 65th, at 65th, and then every other station. Nothing passes on the express track (during the time it was visible) except another R32 E. Wait! What about that F I passed at 75th Ave? Disintegrated?
After almost an hour we reach Queens Plz. I looked everywhere for signs of problems. Nothing, except some guys in vests talking on the platform. We fly through the tube and onto the Broadway line. I'm very hungry. I thought there'd be no more problems. Boy was I wrong.
We enter 57th to see something I never expected to see during rush hour: no sign of either circle or diamond Q. I go to Times Square to wait and the circle Q comes in. It quickly gets crowded and remains crowded to the point some people couldn't get on, even as far south as Atlantic Ave in Brooklyn. Anyway, still in Manhattan, I saw several Rs going uptown on the express track and even saw an express R pass a local R. Going downtown (my direction) there was a W on the local track at 14th which confused me completely, and we did end up passing that R32 R I met at Forest Hills (seemingly an eternity ago). Getting off at Kings Hwy, I heard an announcement that diamond Q service is suspended to Manhattan. My circle Q never got passed the entire way home (except by a mysterious empty W train that appeared out of nowhere, and whose lights made Q riders at Church think they were getting an express ride home when no diamond Q was even close to arriving )and it was nowhere in sight when I got off. Now that I have eaten, I am calm, and have several questions:
1) Even in the midst of a disturbance, why would apparently 3 Es go before an F that is sitting ready to go?
2) Exactly what happened and what signals were affected on the Queens Blvd line? I saw nothing.
3) What happened that caused an R to be on both the express and local track on Broadway going uptown?
4) What could have been the cause of a W on the downtown local track at 14th, when the express track seems fine as my train was on it.
5) Why would diamond Q service be suspended but not circle Q service, and can you explain an empty W passing on the Q express track on the Brighton.
A "water condition" at Court St-Borough Hall/BMT station (from the storms yesterday) forced what the announcements called, "Queens bound N and R trains running over the Manhattan Bridge." Guess what happened to M service? I couldn't see much from a slow moving S/B R train, but at 28th st at around 7 PM last night, I saw on the N/B express track a M express train. Of all things that cameras were made for, you had an R42 M train sighted on the Broadway line last night. Since I don't usually carry my camera, except on fan trips, I didn't try to chase that train towards 57/7.
Also: 11th st cut from the 60th st tube was hit in Queens, northbound R trains were diverted to 63rd st connector. And < Q > service was suspended for the rest of the evening.
David
Why do you still not get it? The subway is for transportation and not your railfan fantasies. If you want new Redbirds, buy an abandoned old ROW in the countryside and open a Redbird museum.
Today, I went to see the new FTC [Frankford Transportation Center], and took a ride through NE Philly, Bucks Co, and the Trenton Area. I either saw and/or rode 6 different types of buses during this day, plus the M4 cars on the Market-Frankford Line. So without further adeiu, here we go:
1]7:59 am - Got on the MFSE at 8th st. Sat in the Railfan seat had an uneventful ride to Margaret-Orthodox Station when the bugs in the new signalling system came out and delayed trains into the FTC.
8:45 am - Despite the annoying, short sprinkles, my first obser-
vation of the FTC is quite impressive. It seems that the bus traffic moves more smoother than before, except for the arrival point of the 3 and 5. I wished that the City would have quickly re-paved Frankford Ave in front of the terminal. The street is really rutted and bumpy. I then ran into an old friend of mine and we talked for about 20 minutes, then I looked around the terminal. The platform is REALLY WIDE for a El station, and the terminal building is beautiful inside, yet very funcional.
2]9:30 am - 5074 - NABI - Rt. 14 - Run up Roosevelt Blvd to Neshaminy Mall. Saw mostly NABI's on this route with a couple of New Flyers and a lone Neoplan on the 14. At Neshaminy Mall, had to go clear on the other side of the Mall to go potty. Good thing the next bus didn't leave for a half hour, it took about 20 minutes for the round trip to the bathroom.
3]10:30 am - 4517 - Eldorado - Rt. 127 - The ride from Neshaminy to Trenton is a 75 minute marathon that gives you the grand tour of Eastern Bucks Co. That and the BOUNCY ride of the 30 foot bus makes this route an endurance ride.
4] Off at Trenton Station, went to Roy Rogers for a Bacon Cheeseburger, then waited for a NJT bus to arrive, in the meantime I took a picture of the Trenton LRT Station across the street from the train station.
5]12:15 pm - 1898 - Flxible Metro D - Rt. 609 - Rode from Trenton Station to Quakerbridge Mall. This Flxible ran soooo smooth, I couldn't beleive I was riding a NJT bus.
6]12:45 pm - off at Quakerbridge Mall. Saw a "baby RTS" (25xx) waiting to go on the 605. After it loaded and left, the next bus arrived before I got the chance to get comfortable.
7]12:50 pm - 1895 - FlxMetD - Rt.603 - Rode from Quakerbridge mall to Trenton.
8]Got off at State and Warren in downtown Trenton. The area looks quite busy during Lunch hour (About 1:25 pm), despite those annoying quickie sprinkles.
9]1:30 pm - 2762 - Nova RTS - Rehabbed model on the 609(Again!). The rehabbed RTS has the orange Twin Vision signs on them. Hamilton is the only Southern Division garage that has the 26-2700 series Nova RTS's. Took short ride to Trenton Station. Missed 1:36 R7 train so I had to wait for the 1:55 127 bus. At Trenton i saw a MCI D4000 (7556) and a D4500 (8266) back to back. 7566 was on the 409, and 8266 was on the 310 (Great Adventure).
10]1:55 pm - 4528 - Another Helldorado - Rt 127 - another long-drawn-out ride back to Neshaminy. Slept through this ride as the bus was going through a shower.
11]3:37 pm - Back at Neshaminy Mall, waited for the 14 back to FTC. Hoped to get a Flyer, but got a NABI - 5077 - with purple seats. I wonder why so many of SEPTA buses in the Northeast have windows that are so badly scratched up? Maybe is because of all of the uncouth bastards that ride them to and from school.
12]4:25 pm - Back at the FTC for the first afternoon rush hour. Decided to take a quick trip on the R to test out the other way out of the terminal (through what used to be the trolley coach yard). If the TT's return, where will they be stored at here? SEPTA will need 2 lanes of the yard for exiting buses on the 8, 24, 26, and R.
Got on 5531, rode to Castor Ave, went through another sprinkle then got on 5506 back to the FTC (both New Flyers).
13]5:15 pm - Went inside the Terminal building, noticed some SEPTA engineers look like dumb-asses at the non-working escalators. What is it with SEPTA and escalators? They seem to go together like oil and water. SEPTA must have an allegy to escalators in the Subway system, whenever they touch one the fucker breaks, and it will never work again......
14]5:25 pm - MFSE - Car 1038 - got on the train leaving from track 2 (EB track) noticed how extremely smooth the train takes the switch. I rode to Margaret-Orthodox, crossed over and rode another inbound train to FTC (car 1063). Had the same signal problem as this morning though. Guess it takes time to get the bugs out.
15]5:44 pm - After getting off the the EB train (which arrived smoothly on the EB track), I crossed over the roomy platform and got on a WB train on Track 1. I like the straight into the terminal instead of the sharp curve and switch of the old Bridge Pratt Station. It should let the trains enter and leave the terminal more quickly, once they get the signal bugs out. I then got on the WB train (All stops to 69th St) car # 1015 for the trip home.
All in all the first day at the FTC was a smashing success.
And since we're in the area, what are those fenced off stairs at the South end of the Bowery platforms? A second entrance?
The Bowery originally had two mezzanines.
Don't have AIM, download it free here at www.aim.com!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
On an unrelated note, I also took this from the MARC platform;-)
Any chance that Metra sold some secondhand gallery cars to MARC?
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Makes no sense for MARC to use gallery cars. They cannot be used on all lines; they restrict the platforms that they can be used at within Washington Union Station; and, obviously, you cannot get out of them at high platforms. Sounds more likely that they would eventually find a permanent home on VRE. Besides, VRE and MARC often share equipment, from what I have heard.
http://www.simpson.edu/mjdomo.archives/rits/msg06098.html
2006 ex-2500, along with 2007 & 2008 were scrapped 1960, earlier than most of their depot-mates.
I'm looking to trade for farecards from other cities, such as CTA (Chicago) or even some Metrocards I don't have.
If there is anything you need that I may have, please rspond to my e-mail and not this site. Just click on the blue Bill Newkirk and describe what you need. I'll see if I have it or not.
Bill "Newkirk"
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Are the schedules so tight during that time that they can't merge? Even at Prince interlocking, we sometimes sail on down and stay local.
Tonight travel time from Lex/59 to Bay Parkway? 1 Hour, 45 Mins.
Just like last time.
(Actually, I did once see a front storm door open on a moving train in revenue service, but it was a while back, and I'm not going to reveal when.)
I said the past few WEEKS, not just MONDAY.
Arriving at 148St,I just missed an R62A 3 train since it was leaving so I hopped on the next train which was a R62.I rode it to Chambers St but not before I changed a sign to the 5 since that was all I had time for with too many people in my car.At Chambers St,I hopped on a 1 train which began my trip to SF.I rode around SF 3 times all the while changing one sign to a green 12 the first time,got off at Canal St,switched over to the downtown side and did it again this time leaving behind a 8 and 13 sign on the last car of the train.
After that I rode to SF for a 3rd time but this time I got off,used the restroom then went to Whitehall St and got on a R40M N train lead car # was 4466 and the A/C on that car was suburb!At Lawrence St my N train started to get into trouble and it turns out that there was a 12-9 at Pacific St at around 3:30PM.
The train involved was the previous N train ahead of mine,a 40S.Apparently someone jumped into the tracks while the train was in the station to "stop" it and then got hit.No doubt got killed in the process.The first half of the train was in the tunnel while the other half was in the station.That's when the fun began.I got off at 36St and watched for a good hour as they sent M train's over the Sea Beach line and short turned some M's at 36St then went OOS to 45St/53St and layed up on the express track.
About an hour later I got on a 40S N train and rode it to New Utrecht Av where I hoped on the B9 bus and took it to Av M to catch the Q. Here is the big grand daddy of em all.As the Q pulled in,a R68A W train whizzed by on the express track,I was like WTF!?!?!? But that was only the tip of the iceberg.I went to Brighton Beach then turned around to head back up to Prospect Pk.During that ride I saw 2 more 68A W trains and 2 R46 R trains heading to BB.
At Prospect Pk,I took the shuttle to Franklin Av and decided to terrorize the C train.So as I was walking from the front to the back of the Euclid Av bound platform,I saw a pipe in between the local and exp. tracks shooting out water in a thin stream like a shower from 3 different spots.It looked partially burst that I thought it would fully burst and flood the whole station in no time.
After that,I hopped on a C train and this train was unique because the first 2 cars were R38's,the next 2 were R32GE's and the last 4 cars were R32's!I took the train to Euclid Av all the while changing one set of signs to 205St on the top and Broad St on the bottom with a G train sign to accomodate that.The next sign I changed it to an H sign with a 167St-GC sign and left the Euclid Av sign alone.
At Euclid Av I took a R38 C train and decided to change the sign's to the JFK Express with 57St/6Av on top and JFK Airport on the bottom. After that I took the 1 train home and at 137St,the train got held for 10mins,probably another 12-9 at 168St and then crawled all the way up to my home station of 157St all the while me changing the signs to Dyre Av at the top and New Lots Av at the bottom with an 11 sign next to it.
Overall,today's trip was spectactular!One of the best solo trip's I've ever done!I wish some of you could've been with me.Well till next time,adios amigos!
KEEP UP THE EXCITEMENT MDT!!!!!
D.R.J.
It is? Funny I have been a diehard buff since my mid-teens (I am 51 now) and I never did that.
To me screwing with the signs is vandalism.
Chuck Greene
--Mark
So's breaking into yard's, stealin'g rollsign's, doing graffit'i, and dress'ing up like a TA employ'ee and tak'ing train's for joyrid'es, right?
Been talking to Redbirds again?
It is people with this attitude, and boasting about it no less, that give us law abiding railfans a bad name. You have no entitlement to such an act. Spend $300 and buy your own rollsign, and do all the screwing around you want.
--Mark
If true, I most certainly hope the authorities can press charges.
Nothing say's happine'ss like a fatal acciden't.
--Mark
LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT ON THIS BOARD AND I WILL COMPARE SOMETHING WHICH I CAN DO A NO-NO TO YOUR NO-NO. THERE ARE A COUPLE OF PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD WHO KNOW WHO I AM AND WHAT I LIKE TO DO. BUT IN ANY WAY I WILL NOT DO ANYTHING STUPID LIKE YOUR STUNTS. CASE CLOSED.
You are the shame of Subtalk and the reason why Peggy, Trevor, #1 Brighton Exp Bob, Train Dude, OnTheJuice and many others left this board, you are a child.
I guess I'm trying to say a railfan respects the railroad and or subway. Yes, sometimes we may go a bit overboard to get a picture, but I don't think any railfan would do anything to damage or deface the system.
I accept it.
To be perfectly honest,Yes I did enjoy my trip yesterday.Nevermind what I did with the rollsigns,overall it was great.I got so excited with seeing something new that I didn't think about anything else.The feeling I get rivals that of nostalgia.And like I said before,there is no doubt that hundred's of people do the same thing,not just me and not just buffs.
Once again I'm truly sorry.If I had thought better of it,I definantly would not have done it.While we're at this,how can a RTO person get in trouble for something like the change of rollsigns? Someone changing the rollsign's while the train is in service is beyond everyones control.I don't see how they could be at fault.
Jimmy
Jimmy
Jimmy
Chuck Greene
Jimmy
Chuck Greene
Jimmy
Chuck Greene
Jimmy
Chuck Greene
I made an offset bracket to hold the crank and screwed the bracket to the box to keep the crank in place. Works very well!
Chuck Greene
Not the ends :)
The T/O and the C/R are fully responsible for the signs on their train especially in their respective operating cars.
I'll give you an interesting example - Back in the early days before the RedBirds were painted red T/O (or motormen as they were known) had a tendency to change the front destination sign from "Brooklyn Bridge" to either "Pelham Bay Park" or E177th Street" before they got to the BB station. It was usually done at Canal St or at the homeball next to the old Worth St station. Well, there were a couple of dispatchers at BB who would write up any T/O who arrived with the front sign not reading "Brooklyn Bridge". At some point practice stopped and the signs were changed when the train pulled in to BB.
I heard this from operating crews. Something about misinforming the passengers.
So take heed MDT - hands off the roll signs.
BTW - if you were caught with the hex key actually changing the signs you could be charged with possession of burglery tools. Why? Because you are not authorized to change the signs.
Actually, basic netiquette says that expression, if not just spelled out, should be "OAO". You know, like "by the way" is "BTW". As I say, I'm not trying to be a scold. But "onakownna"...I had to say something, if only this one time.
WTF?!? Are you making fun of my dialect??? DTrain22 got that word from me, and the correct spelling is "Onnakowna," as you can see in the Srantonese Dictionary, which I edit, maintain, and host on my website.
Now you come to Scranton and try telling someone that we are stretching the English language and you'll get a lump of coal shoved so far up your backside, you'll be able to make oil and power the Grand Trunk Western steam locomotive at Steamtown.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
WTF back to ya' jack. Who gives a flying fluck about your "dialect"? I don't like it when the TYPED dialogue gets peppered by "clever" alterations in the common language. It's no big deal to spell words as they are spoken. But "Onnakowna" doesn't ring trippingly off of the virtual tongue as well as others I've seen. You want to see an honest attempt at putting down into print local dialects, read THE ADVENTURES OF HUCKLEBERRY FINN. That's how it's done.
Speaking, I'll deal with any way you want to say your words. Never had any problems with spoken language. It just doesn't make sense, IMO, to try to get too "witty" in posting messages here. Why sully the data with "local color"? Are we on here to show how clever we are, or to exchange interesting information? I like to think it's the latter.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Today I fixed a sign that said <R> Jamaica Center/Parsons Coney Island
I tried to fix all the V and Z and upside-down J's, but to no avail.
Any responsible rider would report you. As I would do.
Arriving at 148St,I just missed an R62A 3 train since it was leaving so I hopped on the next train which was a R62.I rode it to Chambers St but not before I changed a sign to the 5 since that was all I had time for with too many people in my car.At Chambers St,I hopped on a 1 train which began my trip to SF.I rode around SF 3 times all the while changing one sign to a green 12 the first time,got off at Canal St,switched over to the downtown side and did it again this time leaving behind a 8 and 13 sign on the last car of the train.
After that I rode to SF for a 3rd time but this time I got off,used the restroom then went to Whitehall St and got on a R40M N train lead car # was 4466 and the A/C on that car was suburb!At Lawrence St my N train started to get into trouble and it turns out that there was a 12-9 at Pacific St at around 3:30PM.
The train involved was the previous N train ahead of mine,a 40S.Apparently someone jumped into the tracks while the train was in the station to "stop" it and then got hit.No doubt got killed in the process.The first half of the train was in the tunnel while the other half was in the station.That's when the fun began.I got off at 36St and watched for a good hour as they sent M train's over the Sea Beach line and short turned some M's at 36St then went OOS to 45St/53St and layed up on the express track.
About an hour later I got on a 40S N train and rode it to New Utrecht Av where I hoped on the B9 bus and took it to Av M to catch the Q. Here is the big grand daddy of em all.As the Q pulled in,a R68A W train whizzed by on the express track,I was like WTF!?!?!? But that was only the tip of the iceberg.I went to Brighton Beach then turned around to head back up to Prospect Pk.During that ride I saw 2 more 68A W trains and 2 R46 R trains heading to BB.
At Prospect Pk,I took the shuttle to Franklin Av and decided to terrorize the C train.So as I was walking from the front to the back of the Euclid Av bound platform,I saw a pipe in between the local and exp. tracks shooting out water in a thin stream like a shower from 3 different spots.It looked partially burst that I thought it would fully burst and flood the whole station in no time.
After that,I hopped on a C train and this train was unique because the first 2 cars were R38's,the next 2 were R32GE's and the last 4 cars were R32's!I took the train to Euclid Av all the while changing one set of signs to 205St on the top and Broad St on the bottom with a G train sign to accomodate that.The next sign I changed it to an H sign with a 167St-GC sign and left the Euclid Av sign alone.
At Euclid Av I took a R38 C train and decided to change the sign's to the JFK Express with 57St/6Av on top and JFK Airport on the bottom. After that I took the 1 train home and at 137St,the train got held for 10mins,probably another 12-9 at 168St and then crawled all the way up to my home station of 157St all the while me changing the signs to Dyre Av at the top and New Lots Av at the bottom with an 11 sign next to it.
Overall,today's trip was spectactular!One of the best solo trip's I've ever done!I wish some of you could've been with me.Well till next time,adios amigos!
P.S.:The R62A rollsigns go in this exact following order: 1,9,2,3,13,4,5,<5>,6,<6>,8,10,green12,7,<7>,11,S. There is no red 12 or 14 on the rollsigns.
What's the big deal? If you're aware of the issue, why not use the machines?
"Update: August 1, 2003 -- Last Friday, August 1, LRV 9077 traversed the entire length of Route 15, as a pilot car. Accompanied by a parade of supervisors' "T-cars," a line truck, SEPTA pick-up trucks, a tow truck and a SEPTA Transit Police cruiser, 9077 made its way from Callowhill Depot, east to Madison loop, and back to 63rd Street. The tow truck used a draw-bar to pull the LRV under the railroad underpass on Richmond Street. (The overhead wire at that point has been temporarily "tied off" due to repeated assaults by trucks ignoring the "low clearance" signs.)"
From "PhillyTrolley.org"
Anyone out here see this? I was gone :(
Stop delaying and put Kawasakis, Sharyos, BBDs, half-baked Boeings, whatever you can, butanything but buses on the 15, 23 and 56, and whatever other extant tracks are out there. And if there are tracks but no wires, put those BBD DLRVs that NJT has on the SNJLRT on there too. Anything but buses at this point…
But there are a few traditional trackless trolley routes in Philly that I think would be great for streetcars. I think the 66 running north from the Frankford terminal along Frankford Avenue would be a great candidate for a real streetcar. The street has four lanes so car traffic could move around the trolleys. In fact, one could even conceive separating the trolleys from auto traffic, and make it an express trolley, while continuing to use trackless trolleys for local service.
I think the 59 running along Oxford and Castor avenues would be a good candidate, too, except I'm not sure how I'd route the tracks through Oxford Circle.
Mark
They are buses on a trolley line, that is what.
I heard they were removing the tracks along the 56?
If that is true, then the GMs of SEPTA ought to be shot.
First things first, though, get new trackless trollies and put them on their lines!
Don’t be absurd.
There has been some discussion that when the cars are released from Brookville, they will be trucked to Arden Trolley Museum for road testing. It is planned to have SEPTA assisting in building a loop (one loop already exists at one end), so that the single-ended cars can be road tested before being delivered to SEPTA.
The track connection to Elmwood is the diversion route to the Subway-Surface, and a bit of track on 40th, and 41st st between Lancaster and Girard Aves. In fact, due to bridge reconstruction at Belmont And Girard, SEPTA addedd switches at 40th and 41st and Lancaster so the 15 could detour around the construction. For a time, Kawasakis and PCC's can be seen on the same street at the same time, a sight not seen since 80-82 as the K cars were phased in on the Sub-Surf lines.
maybe you were too young then, but I remember this all to clearly.
Asbestos is a very useful product that has gotten a bad rap due to a prior disregard for worker safety involving its application.
Due to switch problems at 36th Street, Manhattan-bound (E) trains are running local between Jackson Heights-Roosevelt Avenue and Queens Plaza until further notice."
I assume that this has something to do with the flooding as I said in another post, I couldn't get through on the Manhattan bound express track at all. I guess the F is unaffected though.
I dunno, but I had to wait 8-10 minutes @ 8:05am for a sb 6th Av local train @ 42 St. An F finally came. While I was waiting I saw 2 sb D's, 1 sb B, 1 nb D, and 2 nb B (IIRC).
The problem in the past was that the one on the right rian up while the one on the left ran down. Like we were in England or something.
Not sure if that's what caused their closure for so long. But they seem fine now.
Let's hope.
The new elevator at 161st st/River Ave to Street level (by McDonalds) is OOS as of last week.
At least the escalators at Court exist, and apparently both are running. I was shocked to see them at all a few weeks ago, but only the down escalator was running.
What locations are best candidates for an escalator?
There are some stations that should have escalators but don't. Top on the list is 4th/9th.
What about the Myrtle/Wycoff rehab? Tactile warning strips and platform reconstruction must be done sooner or later this year or next year. Don't hold your breath yet, the M will be hit with some weekend and mid-day G.O.'s soon enough.
Last December, the Q line had shuttle buses for the same platform work at Atlantic Ave, and it was the chief reason why the route on Redbird fan trip was redone to Eastern Division and the Rockaways. Part of the original planned route on the fan trip was to use the Brighton Line.
I expect the GO's to return on the M, mostly for the middays. Seeing that the Wyckoff renovation will require work, I wouldn't be surprised if they had shuttle bus service soon. BTW, when the M had frequent GO's in the late 80's & early 90's, they had shuttle trains, buses or both?
Also for a short time, trains bypassed Fresh Pond while roof work was done. IIRC, that was the station that made the front page of NY Newsday when the contractor illegally dumped asbestos onto adjoining private property back in the 80's.
(Okay, fine, that's not an R-42. Close enough.)
BTW, I inspected it yesterday, and it looks like a 2nd track could still fit, albeit with some difficulty, especially at Park Place.
Why can't they just LEAVE some stations painted that orange color? I like it. It's a welcome change to that goddamn blue-green crap. Especially on the Jamaica & Bway-Bklyn El, it would help identify skip-stop stations with alternating orange/green colors.
http://www.bombardier.com/index.jsp?id=1_0&lang=en&file=/en/1_0/1_10/1_10_3_1.jsp%3Fmenu%3D2_1
Not until they prepare the R-O-W's for high speed running and then get permission from everyone to do so.
The JetTrain is a gas-turbine version of the Acela Express power car. Bombardier developed it with the cooperation of the FRA, the idea being to expand Acela-type service outside electrified territory. The gas-turbine power plant powers electric traction motors. According to BBD, the power cars are fully FRA Tier II compliant in regards to crashworthiness and emissions.
Gas-turbine operation is the red-headed stepchild of HSR; although there is quite a bit of power output and acceleration is faster than most diesel-electrics, it has high fuel consumption at idling speeds and the exhaust is often of such high heat that it can melt overhead structures. Reliability of power plant due to fatigue induced by running temperatures and sensitivity to ROW conditions has not been improved too much since the gas-turbine experiments of the 60s and 70s.
Union Pacific employed a few gas-turbine freight locomotives during the 1960s; although very powerful, they were not reliable, and their thirst for fuel required them to actually carry a tender behind the locomotive.
As it stands, electrification delivers the most power, acceleration and speed, plus is the safest, cleanest and most reliable manner of HSR traction. The initial capital cost is much higher than non-electrified traction, but well worth it in the long run. Although there are some diesel HSTs out there, they really ought to be looked at as stopgap measures rather than long-term solutions.
The LIRR tested a turbine-powered train that was otherwise identical to an M1 consist. The results did not encourage wide deployment.
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http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=395559
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In any case, before any high speed train can come into its own, the infrastructure, primarily tracks and signals, has to be able to support high speed operation otherwise the fast train would have to be run at lower speeds with a restriction on top speed. Also, if you are going to selectivly use high speed trains on specific lines, it's probably worth it to go with a proper electrification of the lines when the track, signal and other infrastructure work is done in preparation of hish speed use.
-Robert King
This morning I came upon a review of their production "Boy Steals Trains" at the Edinburgh Festival this month.
I think I owe some of my undeserved appearance in the press to Darius's exploits. After his arrest for messing around in a signal tower several years ago, I think a Daily News reporter looked around the Internet hoping to find a hotbed of similarly troubled souls. It didn't take him long to stumble onto SubTalk. He contacted several of the people posting here and from there it's history.
Here's the review I saw this morning. It's brief.
Guardian Review
Then there is a list of performance dates and prices
Ticket Information
And then for those who are seeking a role model to help guide their lives, here's a link to a rather long and detailed article on Darius from Harpers. It was posted here several months ago, but if you haven't read it or heard of Darius, you'll find it fascinating.
Harpers article on Darius
I agree with the diagnosis of Asperger's (a form of high-functioning autism) based on the information available. Anon_e_mouse Jr. has Asperger's, although his manifests itself differently than in Darius' case; my son is capable of a much wider range of emotion than Darius apparently is. And, fortunately, his behavior hasn't been of the type that would cause him to end up in trouble with authority.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
All the former excursion railways are over 100, but all were rebuilt. Wasn't the Brighton Line as it exists today, from Prospect Park to Brighton Beach, finished in 1903, or is that when the work started?
Yes, until the late teens. The entire line was on the surface originally except Park Place to Church Ave., which always in an open cut.
Yes, until the late teens. The entire line was on the surface originally except Park Place to Church Ave., which was always in an open cut.
There might also be some original right-of-way west of 4th Avenue, abandoned.
thanks
Sure not to be missed.
I doubt we will be seeing 205th st on the D line, the 24/7 G.O. (2 sections, change at Bedford Pk Blvd) is still in force until 5 AM Monday, 8/25. We will see 207th st Yard and should we come up the middle track at Bedford Park, sneak into Concourse yard too.
The SMEE trip also said we cover "some BMT/IND routes" but G.O.'s take precedence over the route, that is why the route is not final at this point.
For that matter, is 2nd Avenue tower (or whatever tower controls it) even manned on weekends?
We did Pitkin on the ERA Redbird trip in December. Jamaica was on the 6/8 MOD trip, but it wasn't on the planned itinerary.
I hope the trip isn't restricted to below-ground routes. The scenery and photography are better above ground and in open cuts. How about the Sea Beach express, followed by a run through CI Yard?
So you rooting for the Slime Bitch line as the most scenic of the four, look at this post
--Mark
Route shmoute!!!! Just do it! You're know you're gonna have a blast. Frankly I don't care where the trip goes, as long as the train is moving for 6 hours or more. Photo stops, visits to abandoned stations, and rare mileage are all just bonuses to me.
--mark
1) N trains only operating from the Sea Beach into Whitehall
2) W trains terminating at 57/7 instead of Astoria
3) No diamond Q service at all, apparently to make room for the W at 57/7
4) Shuttle service from Queensboro Plaza to Astoria
Colorado Railcar has built a self propelled diesel powered passenger railcar. It is being tested in Alaska and may be tested in other parts of the country. The last self propelled railcar was built over 40 years ago. The article has some figures for fuel consumption and passenger capacity.
Diesel Multiple Unit Self Propelled Passenger Car
Yup, we heard about a year ago that CRC built a prototype single-level DMU. Alaska has been one of the latter stops of its tour around the country, which has already spanned quite a few of the 48 states.
The last US-built self-propelled railcars, the Budd SPV-2000, are actually less than 40 years old. DMUs have been built continuously overseas for many decades.
I take it you both mean “one door per side”. Metra’s bilevel gallery cars (the diesel ones) have one door per side, as do Amtrak’s Superliners…but the BBD bilevels that GO Transit, Metrolink, Tri-Rail, et al currently use do have two doors per side. That said, one wide door per side of car is not too great of an impediment to dwell times. CRC’s DMU can be used with other types of commuter car, to push-pull them, plus there is no restriction on how many doors they have to have. Problem solved in that arena…
NJ Transit seems to be anti-MU lately. They have no intentions of getting more EMUs like the Arrows (despite the MTA railroads plus SEPTA, yes, SEPTA! getting more of them)—certainly, DMUs would be faster-accelerating and have less operating costs than their current fleet of F40PH-2CATs and GP40PH-2s/GP40FH-2s and (according to CRC) could haul around one or two Comets to boot. NJT is just caught up in that craze of minimizing inspection costs, what with the FRA upholding that old ICC edict of all powered MUs being individual locomotives and requiring the same kind of inspection every three months as for a big loco—something that does not seem to daunt LIRR, Metro-North or SEPTA.
Most critics think it fills too small a nitch to be profitable for the mfg.
I feel bad for those guys ... they've done the impossible and no one's stepping up to buy any of them. It IS a nifty idea even if it's ugly as a Bronx girl. Heh.
The DMU requires high platforms ... doesn't seem to lend itself to a interurban kind of operation.
Don't get me wrong I think the set looks great, but is it the wrong type of car at the wrong time ?
Nothing worse than politicos arguing "mine! No MINE! No MINE!!! Oh scrooit, if I don't get *MY* way than the high hard one for EVERYBODY" ... a$$holes. :(
But it WOULD have worked here ... instead Joe Bruno's pressing ahead with that stupid CYBERTRAN joke of a volkswagen on steel wheels ... aggggh. BRICK UP THE CAPITOL!
Ugly as a Bronx Girl eh, JLO is from the bronx! If you think JLO is ugly, you definately need to see an optomitrist.
Gettin back to the original topic....I guess that these things would be good for a train from say, Manchester, Nh to Portsmouth, Nh. Not too many people, its low level(thank God), and it looks really nice. So, there's the train for NH, and Alaska I guess. Hell, any place that got a line that don't see much use could use these. I gotta admit, the millage kicks ass! I guess these things are alright by me.
The DMU requires high platforms
False, actually. The setup appears to be of the steps/trapdoors variety; ADA-compliant wheelchair lifts are optional. Plus CRC offers low-floor trailer cars to operate with the DMUs.
Big cities ? They seem to either go for light rail or a push-pull kind of thing
If CRC can prove that their DMUs are lower-operational-cost and lower-inspection cost than the push-pulls, they have a winner. Certainly, any DMU is higher-acceleration than only the shortest push-pull trains…
Read the DMU PDF brochure instead of relying on speculation and hearsay.
As for links, here's how to do it. Just type:
<a href="http://www.nycsubway.org">www.nycsubway.org</a>
to get
www.nycsubway.org
And be sure to include the "http://"
Mark
Mark
Jimmy
Jimmy
Was this a whispering thread then?
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Jimmy
Hey, maybe the MTA should cut back the Sea Beach Line another 10 blocks. With current ridership levels, a single track terminal would suffice, reducing signalling costs. ;-)
I seem to have another out of control poster on the message board. Can't get him off. You know how much I hate that? Of course you do. You're that poster. I know what you have been posting, Edk256. I know you pushed everything down to the bottom of the page. Put the kibosh on my threads. Now I'm gonna put the kibosh on you. You know I've kiboshed before. And I will kibosh again
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Jimmy
oy, vey
The idea behind posting a message isn't to just see how many responses you can get, it's to share information or ask a question. Ideally it's all about the flow of ideas, there are many people here who know a lot about the subway, if you ask intelligent, thought out, and explict questions, then I'm sure they'll take the time to answer your questions with a similar well reasoned manner. From some of your posts, it would appear that you are starting pretty near zero, thats no problem, just sit and listen, you'll pick up on a whole host of things you never even guessed about, and Dave doesn't keep a tab on who owes who what information. Just check a few threads that interest you, theres enough thread-drift here that you'll learn about a half-dozen peripheral subjects right there. And if you don't understand something, it's best to refer to the rest of the NYCsubway.org site, that took me from completely uninitiated to the Subway to able to ride it alone and not get lost in about 6 months. If you're still confused, just ask, the worst someone can do is mock you, but it's not even on paper, it's friggin electrons on a hard drive.
Besides, sometimes it would appear that the number of responses to a given message is inverse to the importance of the thread to the discussion here, witness the recent Pregnant Lady thread.
Anyway, much luck, and a belated welcome to Subtalk.
Jimmy
Jimmy
What? He didn't specify WHICH Tri-State area, Wis, Ill and Ind are perfectly valid, plus which tri-state area has the Tri State Tollway? I thought so, just another case of NY'ers copying good ideas from Chicagoland!
Now only if their successor cars can follow in their footsteps...:-P
On to the stainless future.
Sorry for the weird shot but it gets all 3 important things in it, car number, side light track, no center light track...
Although it is the last redbird with nonblinking lights still out and about...
The article claims that the crew didn't know CPR, the engineer didn't realize the seriousness of the problem, the radio transmissions were garbled, the LIRR didn't realize that they had this emergency and a second one on another train and delayed requesting EMS help.
Don't know how to set up a link but I guess if you go to www.Newsday.com and search you'll find it.....
Very sad and shocking....Hopefully procedures have been changed.
This is today, the report on the LIRR death.
I got off the (Boston) MBTA's Red Line at Central Square one evening, and was greeted by heavy smoke from a track fire blown in my face. It was very strong and visible. I alerted the booth attendant, who said "we know about it," but I saw no one evacuating passengers and no track crews looking for its source. I called 911 from a payphone, and within a minute and a half, three fire trucks from the Cambridge Fire Department arrived and cleared the station of passengers. The source of the smoke was ID'd and the situation resolved.
Advice for everyone: Don't just take someone's word on an emergency situtation, go out and make the 911 call, you might have saved a life.
How much does Cambridge charge to non-tax paying entities these days? It used to be around $50 pr truck back in the early 60's.
*Even though I don't know where the Mattapan Shuttle is!!
From my read of this report, it seems to have been a massive heart attack, and the gentleman was probably dead when he hit the deck.
CPR was administered by other passengers. I could say that each pair of cars needs an AED, just as there is a fire extinguisher on board, but my read is they could not have helped him even with this.
Sorry the man died, but I see many people die, and that's just a part of live.
Elias
The crew continued through Syosset and Cold Spring Harbor to Huntington where aid was summoned.
Had the communications been better they could have had EMS waiting at Syosset (the firehouse is at the edge of the parking lot) and taken the victim to Syosset Hospital rather than wasting 10 valuable minutes continuing on to Huntington......MIGHT have made a difference, tho' we'll never know.
On an unrelated note, Hart, when are you next going to Branford?
Jimmy
To Download MTA NYC Subway Routes and Trainsets visit my website at www.nycsubwaybve.vze.com We also have a great forum setup there so check that out also!
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Jimmy
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=(
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Optimum Online Users Click here for more Information
SBC Users Click here for more Information
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Flushing7
Just reading the email can't do any harm -- unless your email client "helpfully" goes ahead and executes a program for you.
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The major virus programs do it automatically if you are connected to the the internet.
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From TV guide.
Cops
Cops Underground
30 min.
The New York Transit Authority police stake out suspected thieves in the subway; and recover the body of a man hit by a train. Also: a rescue unit treates a stabbing victim. (VCR Plus+ 780921)
Wednesday: 4:00AM Est.
That could be considered a redundancy :)
I did say something about a field trip -- not for the movie, but for the play, which it turns out isn't running anymore.
So the movie will have to suffice.
It was 2:00, 4, 6, 8, and 10 that time.
There's a tendency for audiences to talk during shows, such that it's hard or impossible to hear the film dialogue and/or soundtrack. So, if a packed house of outspoken SubTalkers is going to Film Forum to watch "Pelham 1-2-3", I recommend the print being shown have captioning or sub-titles, so the dialogue is not lost. Unless, of course, all SubTalkers who go already know all the dialogue by heart !
So where are the best seats to hear? Like is it obvious once you get there which seats are closest to the speakers?
It WOULD be something something if we were all to run into eachother
either at the outside line or in the (SLIM-SLIM) aisle...
Who else is thinking "Rocky Horror?"
"He's the hero. That's right. The hero."
It's too hot to have the shirt buttoned all the way up, let alone actually wear the tie. Graduation day has passed, this is real work now.
I got out of a hot cab recently (BOAC, and I'm not referring to any renamed european airline), and the very last thing I needed to see was another T/O wearing a tie. It looks silly enough under normal circumstances. With heat, humidity and no A/C it's even worse.
C'mon, even C/R's are excused from wearing those goofy things during these summer months.
I am now carrying an extra large pair of scissors, and am not afraid to use them. Be governed accordingly.
b/p note: To anyone who didn't laugh at this, or feels some accidental blood may be shed due to the cutting of anyone's tie, relax, don't take life soooo seriously, and take this board even less seriously. And if it applies, loosen that damn tie, its affecting the flow of blood to your head.
Neckties can make T/O's BLIND ... and I'm NOT kidding ... details here:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/03210/206650.stm
Still better than anything that you can come up with.
Of course, YOU never opened up on the wrong side now, did you?:)
Yes, they are, but the sight of them is the same. They look "out of place" on a T/O, even more so after getting out of a hot cab, in the heat and humidity.
There is at least one C/R running around with a sweater on this time of year. That bothers me less, as I don't know their individual circumstances. Wearing the tie uneccessarily, however, is more for style, than for comfort or personal circumstances. It's just WRONG.
Unca Selkirk can attest - 2 or 3 round trips a day and all that steel dust can cause brain damage. Why ... look at ME! :)
And didn't you play the game for a relatively short time, long ago? Imagine those who actually stay on for the duration.
Damn I hated it when I had to wear a tie as a C/R. Yet another reason as to why I gave up Sun/Sat off for T/O (best thing I ever did).
No formal registration required, and all are welcome to join in.
Promotion to T/O:
No longer yapping on the PA every stop.........Ok
No longer recycling the doors over and over, because yet one more customer refuses to be the first to miss the train......Pretty good
LOSING the damn Tie.........
Priceless!!!
YEAH!
Before I download it has anyone heard about it or has installed it yet?
Flushing7
The ONE thing that I particularly like about BVE is the "motion physics" and the rocking and rolling, much like a REAL train. MSTS is like running on cardboard. The DOWNSIDE of BVE is you can hit all the homeys you want, it won't dump - with it being designed for the Japanese ATC standards which don't provide for being tripped, that's a downside to BVE ... but if someone provides these two for creative routemaking, it'd be a real winner ...
Adam
Those are the LED indicators, which I screwed up and made a little too distorted.
Yes, I already had it planned that it will dump upon hitting a signal. You'll even have a motor instructor meet you down the line and take you out of service (ok, I'm kidding about that one).
I'll try to get your rocking and rolling right.
BTW, the other plan is to have everything "objects" so if you wanna make your own station, you just need to know a little 3D. This will (hopefully) provide for having real stations, rather than generic ones.
Seriously, if you do it, let me play! BVE is as close as it's gotten so far to what a motorperson would declare as "almost real" ... no OTHER trainsim has done it. I've visited the "videodisk player" and it was COMICAL ... blow that ball - if the guy outside walked away, you can just keep on going. I hear the NEW one is more "real" and even features "seat shake" ... now THAT would be the teats ...
Then again, if I was going for such a degree of electropneumatic "virtual reality" I could make a killing in "internet sex simulators" and to HELL with running a train. Picture "Wheel'o'tongues" as something to plug into your serial port. Heh.
Even the TA waits for you to get downtown for that. Maybe it'll take you for a virtual ride, and as punishment for your deed you have to sit on the local to get there, with every virtual stop. Then when you get down there, the 3D union dude says "you're on your own" and walks out of the room. I'll spare you however the 3D detail of walking into the room and filling the cup. :)
Ahhh... virtual reality.
Incognito
Koi
Koi
Only if the muffler is broken.
An LRV operating at 40 mph generates a noise level of 80 dbA at a distance of 50 feet.
The interior of an automobile travelling at 60 mph has a noise level of around 70 dbA.
Heavy highway traffic is around 80 dbA.
What LRV is this? Certainly not any of the newer ones.
Have a read of this link and see if it doesn't turn your stomach as well. :(
"HELL ON WHEELS"( http://www.amren.com/971issue/971issue.html )
No need to apologize. I was just pointing out that I already read it.
Sure the public would spew bile at you when you took a train out of service. But at the same time, you could HANDLE the situation in a means of good humor and they'd still be angry but "forgive you" ... the whole tome though REALLY made me angry ... people like this guy definitely do not belong on the subways, or any other public service title. :(
And a shoe slipper, right? :)
Contact with the customers was MUCH more real in the days prior to PA systems. I noticed that folks would get off the train faster and more willingly when you walked cars and bellowed from the storm door in each car as you entered much more so than sticking your head into the porthole and pushing down the button.
I was also 19 at the time and didn't know what folks coulda done to me. When you're not afraid of your customers, they're less likely to phuck with you. This clown though, from all he said seems to have just been ASKING for what he put himself through with his attitude. How he made it past schoolcar is beyond me.
As far as the geese, I guess it was that I was once one myself and just KNEW that if a disabled train didn't get out of there, then nothing was going to move. And I'd just confront people with "reality time" and say "the longer it takes you to get off this pig, the longer it'll take for you to get OUT of here ... this thing's going nowhere and it DEFINITELY ain't going where YOU need to go." I was also 19 at the time and wasn't all that concerned about my "personal safety" ... hell, I lived in the Bronx in the 70's where being badder and more psychotic than anyone else on the car was mandated in order to LIVE. :)
I also had somewhat of a sense of humor and could be non-threatening at first and quite firmly standing my ground when required. I worked in many "bad neighborhoods" and also knew the "if you LET me, I'm going to phuck with you" game. I wasn't willing to play, and wasn't afraid of "minorities" since I LIVED with them and KNEW better. If you're going to be "meat," someone's only too willing to play. It's sorta like flooring the accelerator when a cop's pulled you over. Dogs LOVE to chase if my point isn't too rude. Everybody loves a sideshow I guess is my point here.
I always felt VERY responsible for my geese, it was drilled in in school car that the conductor was the CAPTAIN of the ship. And if you can't respect yourself and those you're responsible for, then how can anyone ELSE respect YOU? Like I said, reading that nonsense caused me to waste a LOT of time in self-evaluation, and after doing it, that guy was a MORON and deserved EVERY bit of twitch he went through. And MORE. :(
Crime in the subway - and elsewhere in the city - was higher in the early 1990's than it is today, in fact substantially higher. Easily available statistics bear this out. What is more doubtful, however, is whether the sort of racial hostility illustrated in this article was any more common at the time. I don't believe it was, at least not to any significant extent. A much more likely explanation is that "Daniel Attila" (betcha anything that's not his real name) has a racial agenda and isn't beyond stretching the truth.
website?
Ain't that "big tent" crowd a hoot? Uh yeah, big hat, no cattle. (ask Texans what that means) :(
But yeah, growing up *IN* the city, I wasn't afraid to go anywhere - as a white boy in 1969, swam OFTEN in the Betsy Head POOL when it had just gotten redone with folks I worked with right there across the street from the main entrance and NOBODY bothered me other than Nathan Hale's cousins who were in a busting mood. And the mention of the "liberal" buzzword REALLY did it for me - Liberals don't EXIST anymore. "Liberals" were the intellectual elite of the REPUBLICAN PARTY ... the Percy's, the Rockefellers, the EARL WARRENS ... the LINDSAYS ... *YES*, John Vliet Lindsay, penULTIMATE "libe-RAIL" was a REPUBLICAN. I say this to only point to the ***IRONY*** of how the "L-word" is tossed about by the VERY party that INVENTED "liberals" and brought them to the forefront! Watch the movie, "The President's Analyst" starring James Cockburn and take it ALL in. (grin)
Anyhoo ... in order to distance themselves from that which THEY created and turneth into a monster, we now have the SAME intellectual elite powergrab from the OTHER SIDE ... in other words, "we did this liberal thing ... and it was wrong. Now we do BIZARRO world and create monsters from the OPPOSITE polarity!" Uh-huh. William Kristol, Rush Gasbag and other parodies of carbon-based lifeforms. Yeah, I get it. ha ha hah. :)
Anyway, to cut to the chase since I need sleep, I actually wasted time THINKING about all this CHIT. Words cannot express my regret in DOING SO! (can we have a Sam Kinnison SCREAM here?) AAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!! OHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! :(
Usually, when trying to convince an audience of an argument, it's not a good idea to contradict that argument in the last paragraph. The incident in which a rock was thrown at his black female T/O he says took place at the airport, i.e., Howard Beach, an area known for white-on-black violence in recent history. It ain't all of them out to get you, buddy.
A quick Google search shows that the author doesn't care for Jews, either.
Even back in the 70's, a lot of people quit before they even posted, the schoolcar dropout rate was about 50% (structure walk and track safety got rid of QUITE a few) and if they survived to actually DO the road, the "fire safety" courses did in quite a few as well. Heh. And for those of us who made it to MOTOR INSTRUCTION with the "here kid, pull that shoe fuse" ... well, heh. :)
I tell ya, the more I've been reading it back and forth, responding to it, going BACK and examining my OWN conscience ... it all just gets me MORE and MORE pythed off that people like that guy still have kneecaps. YOUR post just put me right over the top. For all the CHIT that went on back in my day, this guy definitely deserves a little "paddle time" ... :(
My buddy who sent it to me asking, "is THIS real?" and expecting me to reply one way or another, presented me with one of those time-consuming "I gotta READ this nonsense?" items, and since I never trust my own memories, accuracy (when you get older, the MIND is the first thing to go - THANK GOD it wasn't a vital organ) or anything that comes back every 2 or 4 years trying to get you to MARRY IT AGAIN!!! I just needed my OWN reality check.
I never worked Fulton on the A, C or whatever else flew through there - when I worked for the TA, I lasted through ONE conductor pick, ONE motorman pick, and they were the SAME interval in BOTH. While I did some WAA on other lines from time to time, all I ever knew was the D line - with diversions. While I rode other lines for fun, the D was my "home line" and I took an INCREDIBLY bad "nobody wants this item, it's a split shift and it's the D ... you WANTED the D and it's ARNINES since it's just put-ins, and those pieces of chit run on the CC anyway - those phuckers up in the Bronx don't COMPLAIN when it's an Arnine." So I took it. My posterior is STILL sore from those hours. :)
But the whole "A line" experience didn't jibe with what I knew from folks *I* knew who did them every day. Then again there was the limitation of my working there in the 70's when there was STILL some hope that racism would finally die off and people would be judged by THEMSELVES ... and it took 20 years before Bill Clinton came along and ALMOST made it fly. :(
To me, the guy was not credible, and the whole "fear thing" he expressed indicated that he had serious problems to begin with. Why would one FEAR their neighbors? Hell, if a neighbor's REALLY scary, you just call the FBI. Problem GONE. Heh. But THAT link, now that I read a bit MORE of it (I still refuse to waste time on reading it ALL) wowsers. Unca Selkikr says NEVERMIND ... The Rush Limbaugh level of lavalamp is definitely lit, and it's red over red over lunar. :)
Gimme that ole TA suction. :)
The bright side though, I learned how to key by on a tight curve and stop within ten feet of the train ahead of me ON A CURVE. Got it down to a tee.
Oops, forgot that B and D trains share the same track into 59th before diverting at the wye south of the station.:)
But that article REALLY roasted my rump. And the 1950's seemingly NEVER went away down at Stillwell. Hell, even Senator Byrd had an epiphany.
Guess I gotta do as my buddies threatened me on the D train, go outside and burn a watermelon on my front lawn and just get OVER it. Heh.
If it was one of those BS emails with "Clinton conspiracy" tripe or "black helicopters" it would have been in the trashbin unread. I don't go for rumor, inuendo or "fair and balanced" ... one of the things I learned as a journalist is the great lessons of Paddy Chaievski and the film, "NETWORK" ... this *IS* remotely relevant to transit in terms of all the MEDIA SPIN we're constantly handed from all sides. :(
Chiaevski was right ... witness ... here's the script from "Network" ...
Edward George Ruddy died today! Edward George Ruddy was the Chairman of the Board of the Union
Broadcasting Systems — and woe is us if it ever falls in the hands of the wrong people. And that’s why woe is us
that Edward George Ruddy died. Because this network is now in the hands of CCA the Communications
Corporation of America. We’ve got a new Chairman of the Board, a man named Frank Hackett now sitting in
Mr. Ruddy’s office on the twentieth floor. And when the twelfth largest company in the world controls the most
awesome goddamned propaganda force in the whole godless world, who knows what shit will be peddled for
truth on this tube? So, listen to me!
Television is not the truth! Television is a goddamned amusement park, that’s what television is! Television is a
circus, a carnival, a travelling troupe of acrobats and story-tellers, singers and dancers, jugglers, side-show freaks,
lion-tamers and football players. We’re in the boredom-killing business!
If you want truth, go to God, go to your guru, go to yourself because that’s the only place you’ll ever find any real
truth! But, man, you’re never going to get any truth from us. We’ll tell you anything you want to hear. We lie like
hell! We’ll tell you Kojak always gets the killer, and nobody ever gets cancer in Archie Bunker’s house. And no
matter how much trouble the hero is in, don’t worry: just look at your watch — at the end of the hour, he’s going
to win. We’ll tell you any shit you want to hear!
We deal in illusion, man! None of it’s true! But you people sit there — all of you — day after day, night after
night, all ages, colors, creeds — we’re all you know. You’re beginning to believe this illusion we’re spinning here.
You’re beginning to think the tube is reality and your own lives are unreal. You do whatever the tube tells you.
You dress like the tube, you eat like the tube, you raise your children like the tube, you think like the tube. This is
mass madness, you maniacs! In God’s name, you people are the real thing!
We’re the illusions! So turn off this goddam set! Turn it off right now! Turn it off and leave it off. Turn it off
right now, right in the middle of this very sentence I’m speaking now -
At which point, Howard Beale, sweating and red-eyed with his prophetic rage, collapses to the floor in a prophetic swoon.
Fox5 hasn't QUITE had the stones ... YET.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
If an A/C happened to be directly in front of a B, chances are the "terminal" would be empty and the A/C could be send right through -- and if there was an F/V on the local track right there, it probably would have been sent right through, switching back to the local at W4.
I was on a D train that ran up the express track one weekend in late 2001. The GO called for it, I think, even though every other weekend D's ran local.
A runs on the D between 207 and 34 then on the F/V between 34 and west4
C runs on the B between 145 and 34 then on the F/V between 34 and west4
E runs on the V between 23 Ely and West 4.
After West all train run upstair to thier original route
Enjoy
Did you notice your mind isn't exactly sharp?
I don't know if it is just me but sometimes I refresh the page and I see blank lines and have to click and hold to find out what the subject is. By the way has anyone else exprienced this?
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---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
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So, my question I guess is... has anyone else seen this? Could this be MTA sponsored or some guy with a copy machine (as the pics were B&W)? A few people commented that they were glad the subways were nothing like that anymore, perhaps they're the MTA's way of saying "be grateful". Or they could be a stern warning that "if it werent for the fare hike this could happen tomorrow".
I put three photos of the new Frankford Transportation Center and one example of the MFSE's railfan window on my Webshots SEPTA page (last 4 photos, below the last Frnkford Terminal photos).
--mark
My personal choice if Astor Place. Such a nice little old station, yet when the up or downtown express rounds the curve, that classic NYC Subway sound is produced--you know, that rattling, screaching banging--only much, much louder. Or should I write that LOUDER!!
It's quieter than about ten years ago, however it has it all, and loud. Screaching, banging, rattling, a train almost never NOT in the station, announcements saying to stand clear of the platform, etc. The mice/rats that live there probably never have quiet.
Which is why they all moved to that firehouse in Queens. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
The post didn't limit the choices to New York, so I'd suggest Toronto's Union Station streetcar loop, used by the Spadina and Harbourfront lines. Whether a CLRV or a chartered PCC, even many seasoned streetcar lovers wince and grimace at the sounds. (Spadina loop at the other end of the Spadina line is pretty noisy, too.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
...Wait for an incoming express and prepare to get deaf...
More simply: the back of the 2/3 stop at Borough Hall going towards Manhattan
Hearing the redbirds round that curve and come into the station was a lot of fun, the only noise louder than a disco party I ever really enjoyed.
Jimmy
Is noise level measured on "problem" stations with decibel meters by MTA, subway fans, or anyone else ?
14th St. station on the 4, 5 and 6 has also reminded me of Frankenstein's laboratory, due to the moving platforms, overhead catwalks, wheel noise, and sparking third rails.
And here are some samples:
What's somewhat abnormal about the photo below?
--Mark
Yay! That's one thing, and there is one more thing. What you said leads into the next item. I'm glad you picked up on that. If no one catches the other point, I'll post it tonight.
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Very nice photos Brian!
Was that Cosmopolitan car not on the platforms? Was it on one of the adjacent tracks in CGT?
D - 6th Av Express/West End Local (replacing W) All times.
Fire officials believe that a swarm of rats fled the Parson Blvd station on the E/F and took up residence in a Queens firehouse. Apparently 100's of rats took invaded the firehouse and repeated attempts by exterminators to eliminate them were unsuccessful.
Firehouse Mouses
People familiar with the neighborhood point to construction work going on at the subway station as a probable cause for the rat's relocation. I must say that this is another example of how the MTA's lack of planning has created a horrible problem. Prior to starting the construction work, the MTA should have had one of their in house rats contact the Parson Blvd rat population and let the word go out that the MTA would make provisions for their relocation while the rehabilitation work was going on. That would have gone a long way to averting this disruption to fire department operations.
**************** NO REFUNDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ****************
Moo. :)
What is PeTA....
They tried to hold some sorta protest at our state capitol,
and a bunch of cowboys on the other side of the mall roasted some cows.
They Called themselves PETA + People Eating Tasty Animals.
MOO
(there ... somewhat on topic)
Albany already has more rats that the food supply can support.
SQUEAK SQUEAK!
or put it this way:
Rat #1: Sup my furball
Rat #2 Did you see our owner today?
Rat #1: That guy from Arcadia?
Rat #2: Yea, Fred, he was supposed to leave us a month's supply of cheese.
Rat #1: Nope, It's missing (shakes tail)
Rat #2: Well, I'm going towards Whitehall side to see if he left it there/
Rat #1: Wait a minute, I did see the supply near Court.
Rat #2: OK, I will scamper over to get some food, just look out for the train, especially with a yellow N in front.
Rat #1: Don't worry when Fred stops crying about his train, maybe he can take us somewhere outside.
Rat #2: And where do you think this new place might be?
Rat #1: It's different, got a mixture of short tunnels, one more track in the middle for us to lounge around, plenty of garbage all over the place for us, and some places are outdoors!
Rat #2: Hmmm, that must be his Sea Beach Line.
Rat #1: Yes it is.
Hey, its working at Boro Hall on the 2/3, why not here?
I'm eating Cinnamon Life so I was able to read the story. Very interesting. I saw a real big juicy rat run across the platform towards me yesterday since I was standing all the way at the south end by the garbage. It was at 47-50 Sts. I held my ground even-though he was heading straight for me. I won the game of chicken when the rat veered left go around me.
Ha hah aha ha ha ha ha...please, I'm trying to get away from the computer screen and go to work. Stop making me laugh. But as Ah-nold says, that was a funny one.
I let him have it. I must've been in a giving mood that night.
Oh, I'd have "let him have it" also, because I wouldn't have been in a giving mood, not with a twinkie!
Must be because I grew up on the Canarsie Line...
No, you aren't. http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=541549
BTW No animal rights activisim!
--Mark
Damn soft-hearted California liberals.
David
You assumed that those people are correct, and then blame MTA.
You could be right, but you also could be dead wrong. So you spent most of your post on a rant before establishing that you even knew what you were talking about.
For the uninitiated: Tomorrow is the 9th day (Tisha, in Hebrew) of the Jewish month of Av (B'Av, in Hebrew). It chiefly commemorates the destruction of both Jewish Temples in 586 B.C. and 70 A.D. respectively, although it commemorates other sad events in Jewish history as well, such as the forcible expulsion of Jews from Spain in 1492. It is marked by a 24+ hour fast, the only such fast other than Yom Kippur. The fast begins tonight at about 8:00 and ends tomorrow night at about 8:45.
(Subway link: The "9th of Av" can be abbreviated as "9th Av" or "9 Av.", hinting at one of the more prominent and historic closed subway stations.)
LOL! I had no idea where you were taking this, but you tied it up nicely in the end. And I've never thought about the 9 Av relationship. Hmmmm, I'll think about it tomorrow while I'm hungry.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Because of where I am, I'll be starting my fast about seven hours earlier than you (in about five hours), but that also means that I'll be finished earlier . In any case, have an easy one.
subfan
East fast, all.
Sorry about the delayed response - I've been off-line till now.
subfan
Slightly less than 24 hours.
If one goes north of the Arctic Circle, the change in the length of the day is extreme and you can cut a few hours while remaining in the same place the whole time.
This is is much better in the sunrise-sunset fasts: Just go to the Arctic or Antarctic where the day is really short. :-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
1) 168 1 Line
2) 181 1 Line
3) 191 1 Line
4) 190 A line
What is the 5th Station?
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Robert
IINM each branch of the A runs on 20 minute headways, so that kinda wait is not at all unlikely, especially if you're at a station served by only one branch.
But if they ran 8 car trains more frequently, I would call it a significant service improvement.
Okay, so that's 7½tph not 6tph.
Now say that the A train needs 12 trainsets at present. That would then mean you would need 15 trainsets. I know - no difference in terms of the number of cars, but you'd need to pay 3 more motormen and 3 more conductors. I don't know what that works out at per year, but it won't be cheap!
The M already comes pretty often, maybe if the V already saw increased headways, it would become more desirable
Shortening the V doesn't seem like a waste relative to the ridership along Queens Blvd
I have never met anyone that thinks this.
"Shortening the V doesn't seem like a waste relative to the ridership along Queens Blvd"
Nor this. Unless headways were made shorter then I do not think shortening V trains is wise.
The next role the Q will play is an extension to Second Av and 86th Street in several years.
Just a thought: What if the TA opened the SAS side of the Lexington/63rd Street station and terminated the Q there instead of 57/7? Would that add any functionality or convenience to anybody?
That's true of the 6th Av-63rd Street tracks also. The eastbound F and westbound F dive/climb with respect to each other; the y become level again as they approach the East River tunnel.
Is there no track connection yet to both levels of the the 63rd Street Station/SAS side (meaning two tracks for the Q become one)? Is only one level connected, with the trackway on the other level not available?
Enough of this nonsense conspiracy theory already.
I can't comment on your dad, but in the long run, the TA was mucvh better off for not going that route.
Wait, MTA sticking to its guns about something worthwhile? We're screwed.
When enough 60' rolling stock shows up, the V can be sent anywhere in the B Division.
You're fixated on one mistaken idea, and for not very good reasons.
Stop fixating on this nonsense and move on.
IND trains were longer than BMT trains. There is only one direct connection between the Eastern Division BMT and the IND; there are a number of direct connections between the Southern Division BMT and the IND. ISTM that lengthening Southern Division platforms should have been (and, indeed, was) of greater priority than lenghening Eastern Division platforms, since otherwise there'd be lots of wasted IND capacity.
Also, when the lengthening project was begun, I think Southern Division trains tended to be more crowded than Eastern Division trains. Surely crowded lines should get capacity improvements before uncrowded lines.
"Thx for the info."
No Problem..
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
You also have the problem of a very short platform at Metropolitan Avenue (Middle Village) with little room to extend without shifting the interlocking.
BTW, Go into the Archives and look into the 75' Car Threads(LONG), and you will most likely get your answer.
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1) They won't fit (bridge clearances ect.)
2) They won't fit (platform lengths)
3) They won't fit (un-rebuilt tunnel segments)
4) They are dinosaurs that will never be built again so they just may as well run where they are until they feed them to the fishes.
: ) Elias
Pity they knocked down the bit from Rockaway to Grant. The BMT 1924 map shows four really good curves on that section!
It's not so much that the 75 footers couldn't make the curves. The problem exists where to trains would do the same curve in opposite directions where they would side-swipe eachother.
As for platform lengths, yes 67 foot cars did run there. Most of the stations on the Eastern division could handle more than a 8 car train of 60 foot cars, but they are not long enough for a full train of 75 foot cars.
I don't know why the Lefferts stations were built longer, because as you said, they were part of the Eastern Division before they built the Fulton Subway. Their full length was not used though when they were part of the Eastern Division because even though trains ran from Atlantic Ave (L) to Lefferts, the section between Atlantic and Grant was not rebuilt dual contracts el, so that portion of the Fulton el must've still had shorter platforms.
It does not matter how tight the curves are, the issue is the overhang clearances, both with structure elements and with passing trains.
The issue is not so much "can they make the curve"
as it is "can they make the curve without hitting anything"
I have had this same problem building my model railroad: some places are restricted to 72 foot cars because the 85 foot cars would side-swipe each other.
Elias
--Mark
And in the case of the subway portion of the L train, possibly also the wall.
Okay, so apart from Metropolitan on the Myrtle Avenue Line, everywhere can handle 8 car trains of Standards.
So that means the platform lengths have to be at least 8 x 67'3" = 538'.
(Incidentally, did 12 car trains of Triplexes ever run on the Eastern Division? - that would give a platform length of 548'.)
Let's move on now from the idea of 75' cars. I think I have a better idea.
IINM the R160 will come in 5 car sets and fully compatible with the R143. This gives us a fun possibility: 9 car trains. These would of couse be 540' long, meaning at worst 2' of the train not platforming (big deal - not). If these were, say, put into service on the L train, fewer trains and therefore fewer crews would be needed and the MTA would save money :-D
(An alternative would be to reconfigure the 25 4-car sets (12 trains) of R143s into 8 4-car sets, 8 5-car sets, 9 3-car sets (11 trains) and a spare inset car.)
Okay, so why don't they recouple the R143s?
Currently there are 100 cars as 25 4-car sets, making 12 trains and 4 spare cars (end-inset-inset-end).
That could be reconfigured to 8 4-car sets, 8 5-car sets and 9 3-car sets, making 11 trains (8 as 4-5, 3 as 3-3-3) and leaving only one spare (inset) car.
When the other 112 arrive, giving us 53 4-car sets in total (so it'd be 26 trains and 4 spare cars), it could be 17 4-car sets, 18 5-car sets, and 18 3-car sets, giving 23 trains (17 as 4-5, 6 as 3-3-3) and a more comfortable 5 spare cars.
We've all made that part of our childhood fantasies. Saying you thought of it first is like Al Gore saying he invented the Internet.
--Mark
That makes the distance between Bowling Green/Wall St and Wall/Fulton St even closer than it is.
avid
avid
Do you mean the J, L and M trains?
Also The Dual Contract, Kings County Railway and BRT Live On this board.
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Why not ask about 75' cars and the Third ave El and the Culver Shuttle.
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And f**k you for spilling the beans about Santa.
avid
=============
Meadowlands rail plan 'very close'
Tuesday, August 5, 2003
By DANIEL SFORZA
STAFF WRITER
State officials think they have finally come up with a workable plan that would bring trains to the Meadowlands Sports Complex for the first time.
The $400 million proposal, obtained by The Record, would connect riders throughout New Jersey and Manhattan to the Meadowlands. It already has the support of key state agencies, whose leaders say it could happen in five to seven years if they can get the funding.
[..more]
http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkzJmZnYmVsN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2NDEwNTc4JnlyaXJ5N2Y3MTdmN3ZxZWVFRXl5Mw==
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-nj--meadowlands-railp0805aug05,0,1525921.story
http://nytimes.com/2003/08/06/nyregion/06RAIL.html?ex=1060833600&en=a020c051f1c6a81e&ei=5062
Jets game more likely, given their fan bases. They want Port Authority money, which means more money diverted for New York's airports given the rule that in every recession the PATH fares and PA tolls must be kept lower than in New York, and capital projects in New York must be cancelled to make up the difference.
If that's what they are going to do, they should put in a connecting track so that trains from Penn could go right to the stadium, with a small yard north of there to turn the trains.
You are correct.
CG
"Watch the Gap"
This is number 10 I think.
Anyone seen one of these yet?
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks, Bill.
Bill "Newkirk"
I see that you did butas with many postings if you do the display as "By threads, reversed" as I and many others do, it can get lost when surrounded by other topics that have multiple replys.
Thank you for the first posting.
Allan
That would explain why the 8th Avenue Trains ran up the entire route on 6th Avenue, because the train was on the fricken 3rd so they had to shut off the third rails
Jimmy
Due to a switch problem at 238th st, there is no 1/9 service in both directions between 215th st and 242nd st/VCP.
Another crazy morning
People of "fame" do tend to take liberties they haven't earned, and HOPEFULLY justice will be served. But no, I don't CARE about the trash the media spews ... here's something MUCH more real and fitting of media attention:
http://www.larryflynt.com/national_prayer_day.html
Again, I sympathize with all parites involved, but the MEDIA is NOT a court room. It belongs THERE. :(
I bet you know the song I named Sloopy after. HINT: Rick Deringer's first band.
Live out with the critters, and you realize *FAST* that they're NOT friendly, they're NOT cuddly and we'd be HONORED to ship you all the bambis and skunks you can stand. Coons, too - same for possum, squirrel and dozens of other burrowing, smelly animals. You wannum, we GOTTUM ... *FREE!!!!!!!!* Just back up a truck and they're YOURS! NO questions asked, even if you're still wearing your Ralston Purina baseball cap. :)
But GEEZ, man ... you SAW what Bambi did ... and we laid out a NICE "Sure, have all you want of *THIS* feast" for the damned ingrates. What'd they WANT? Our $100 plants. Bronx Park, they're YOURS! Just back up a truck! :)
VENNISON STEW ... MMMMMMmmmmmm good!
LE PEW!!! LE PEW!!! LE PEW!!!!!!!!!
That's right 3001 is the projected target date for the completion of the SAS. I'm serious, the MTA is jinxing it.
Unfortunately, it's also a matter of closing some very crowded subway lines for an extended period of time. Did you see Times Square when the 1/2/3/9 was shut down on Monday due to flooding? I was there, and it wasn't a pretty picture.
As one who finds skip stop as annoying as I do, you should not acknowledge the existance of the 9 train. It is a wanna be 1.
Keyword: Tried
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R142 2 Train - #6362
R62A 3 Train - #1880
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--Mark
Tuesday: There's switch problems at 1449 street, Grand Concourse. A R44 (A) train derails at Canal Street.
Wedensday: Switch problems at 238 street.
I can't wait until Thursday or Friday.
S/B Q train at Atlantic Ave goes in to BIE, disrupting Q services and sending a Manhattan Bound Q diamond train back to Brighton Beach after the train was discharged at Prospect Park. (I was on that train)
Q R40 4361
Time to invest HEAVILY in KRYLON if you wanna get that didvidend check. "Those who FAIL to learn from history ... yada yada" ... :(
Hey, so it's you Yanks who've nicked our weather and made all our trains go at 60mph because of the sun...
Also maximum speed on the rail lines was reduced to 60 mph.
European Heat Wave
I can imagine that with the high temps over yonder, THEY'RE dealing with dew points in the mid 70's ... yow. :(
Weather MINUS transit ... Unca Todd OWES me one. :)
--Mark
The waivers were denied in the exact order of which network I would prefer to have the waiver for.
And GOOD GOOD ratings any time one of the Hitler or Discovery channels did a TRAIN SHOW. RIGHT into the book ... ALL household eyeballs. :)
Yes, but the tube is always WAY hotter. A few weeks back, the Evening Standard ran a headline "98°" - of course, they meant how hot it got on the Northern (Charing X) Line - outside it was only about 85.
Rather amusingly it is illegal in England and Wales to transport animals above 95°. No such law applies to people.
Absolutely.
Perhaps its time to put it in.
The problem is that the heat would have to go somewhere. Also, two-thirds of the Underground is such small profile that finding space for an aircon unit would be difficult. Airconditioning the sub-surface lines would not be hard, but they tend never to get as hot.
Here is my suggestion:
- put aircon in all A, C and D stock.
- during the Summer, send all Piccadilly Line trains to Heathrow or Northfields.
- during the Summer, have the Jubilee Line serve Stanmore in the Rush Hour only, at other times being cut back to West Hampstead.
- run an extra District Line service (6tph) High St Kensington to Rayner's Lane, with some trains continuing to Uxbridge.
- run an extra Metropolitan Line service (10tph) Baker Street to Stanmore, with half of the trains off-peak going to/from Aldgate.
With global warming there is a change in the gulf stream, directed more toward Britain, could warm the climate ALOT.
We can always hope. :-D
Great film... I especially love the use of Marylebone Station as a set (although the fact that they could do that shows how few real trains went there back in those days).
I know - they also cancelled half the trains, so Birmingham New St to London Euston ran hourly (and the trains were therefore absolutely packed at 1:45pm - God help anyone riding in the rush hour). Incidentally, it took something like 3½ hours from Birmingham to London. It normally takes 1¾. Why do things like this always happen when I have an extravagant day and pay to ride the WCML?
Simon
Swindon UK
It's kinda lucky they did the speed test on Eurostar when they did - otherwise we'd have a 60mph high speed train not a 208mph one!
Peace,
ANDEE
It is now my sworn duty to correct all mis-signed trains. Point them out to me, and I'll try to find them!
On my one and only trip to NYC a couple of months ago, I remember seeing a poster at the Columbus Circle station that was a cut-away view map of the station. I was wondering if there were similar posters of other stations and how one of those might be obtained/bought/etc.?
If anyone knows anything, I'd appreciate it.
Howard
Additional station diagrams (although they are 8 years old) are at both 7th Ave and 8th Ave 34th st/Penn stations (one the 8th ave side, it had the wrong bus stop location for either the M4 or M10 IIRC.)
http://www.mta.info/mta/planning/fstc/planned.htm
You might try writing to them:
MTA New York City Transit
Customer Relations
370 Jay Street
Brooklyn, NY 11201
or try sending a question to the MTA "Contact Us" section on their website and see what answer you get:
http://mta-nyc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/mta_nyc.cfg/php/enduser/ask.php
Good Luck
They do not give practical directions, but rather an overall cutaway view of each station.
I would like to see similar kinds of drawings for New York subway stations, if there are any.
If I can remember, I'll try to take photos of the ones here and post them online.
Thanks. I sure would appreciate that.
Thanks, "Chap".
Those two photos of the 34 St - Penn Station diagram look good to me. It's a bit difficult to read some of the writing, but that's okay if you know what to expect. I am interested in the overall layout of the stations, and they convey that just fine.
www.railfanwindow.com is an interesting site, and new to me.
Great, just let me know if you want any part of any poster in detail, and I can use macro mode to take an in-focus photo of a small portion of the poster.
www.railfanwindow.com is an interesting site, and new to me.
That's my fault, I have to remember to but the banner in my signature more often. Anyhow, browse through my site. As of right now I have 3368 digital photos on there, mostly taken by me, and all taken within the last two and a half years. I add photos almost daily, and I usually announce the updates here, so watch for them, or check out my site daily :)
In the portrait-shaped photo there is a legend in the bottom left hand corner. If I could read the legend better, that would clarify the rest of the picture.
At first I was confused because the mezzanines are shown below the platforms; at least I suppose that's what they are!
No wonder I was confused! Penn Station itself must be part of the explanation, but the poster doesn't clearly show it.
Ok, I will take a photo of that tonight.
Thanks especially to Choo Choo for the pics. Those were nice.
Howard
"We appreciate your interest in MTA New York City Transit. Regrettably the 3 dimensional station poster in question is over 20 years old. However, because of the favorable response by the public to the poster and its dynamics, it was never taken down from the Columbus Circle and Fulton Street stations. Unfortunately, these prints have long since been out-of-production and are no longer available for purchase. We hope that you may find some of our other posters and postcards that are on display at the Grand Central Station Transit Museum store and at the Transit Museum's online store a convenient and interesting alternative."
It went on to tell me what other posters they had available, but we already knew that.
But at least now we know why some of those posters seemed inaccurate, they're 20 years old!
Thanks again for all who commented
--Mark
How about donating to the Rockland-bound understudies? :) lol
You ARE RIGHT. PATH is a subway sytem, regardless of what Jerky Mike says.
Also, NYCTA IS a railroad.
Peace,
ANDEE
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Evidently those trains should have been sent down the 7th Avenue Line. ;-)
Elias
: ) Elias
M-1s have provisions for rollsigns on the car bodies, M-3s do not.
M-1s have a panel with two lights on both sides of the car at each cab end. M-3s have three lights.
M-3s have the three lights above each cab on the interior, too.
The luggage racks on M-1s have members running predominantly parallel to the sides. M-3s, transverse.
M-1s have incandescent emergency lighting. M-3s use emergency fluorescent ballasts on a few of the tubes used for main lighting instead. (Some M-1s may have been updated?)
M-1s have 140hp motors, and M-3s have 150hp motors to account for the extra weight. (Four motors per car.)
The undercar equipment is different. Pay attention to ducting and shock absorbers.
Watch the Crap!
Mark
Someone give more details please. Can't belive no one mentioned it yet.
Mark
Amsterdam - lots
Lisbon - lots (and lots of tram related souvenirs too)
Vienna - none
Milan - none
Prague - none
Even in Manchester, UK which has a small light rail system you could find a few tram postcards. But for cities like Vienna and Milan, which the trams play a big part in that city's history and identity, to find no postcards with trams on them was surprising.
Some years ago, the store manager told me he wanted a postcard of our Chicago Aurora & Elgin interurban, #434. I just happened to have a great nighttime photo of me and a colleague in front of the car during one of our Halloween events. So as a donation to the Museum, I had the photo made into postcards for sale.
The subway system here in DC dates back to 1974.
The NYC subway system dates back to 1904.
The technology and the structure of the NYC subway is just not strong enough to handle faster trains.
In response to your question abot ATO, the trains here in the metrorail can use ATO mainly because the system was originally built to handle it. The NYC subway was not built for ATO.
The R44/46 car classes are ATO capable, but they were never successful. This once agains goes back to the old age of the system itself.
In response to the metrorail being just better, you have to take the into consideration:
The NYC subway runs 24/7. That means there's little time and opportunity to maintain the cars and stations at a very high level. Metrorail actually closes for a few hours every day, so therefore alot of maintenance and repair work can be done swiftly.
The technology and the structure of the NYC subway is just not strong enough to handle faster trains.
This arguement is complete bull. The Philly MFL was built at a similar time period and even on the Market El which was built as a temporary structure and is about as run down as you can get, can handle 55mph running between stations. Similarily PATH which was built in 1908 can handle 40-50 mph speeds in their tunnels.
The NYC subway runs 24/7. That means there's little time and opportunity to maintain the cars and stations at a very high level.
This is an operational issue that has been the choice of the MTA. Instead of making maintainence windows available through service curtailments or single-track running, the MTA has just hid behind its 24/7 service and lets things get crappy.
The crash occurred because the train's brakes couldn't bring the train to a stop in time.
There are three solutions: improve the brakes, install an entirely new signal system, or restrict top speeds as necessary.
For whatever reason, NYCT picked the third solution. That may not be the solution that any of us would prefer, but it's the solution that was chosen.
The condition of the system (which is head and shoulders better than it was 20 years ago) has nothing to do with it.
If we wanted to rely on the T/O doing what he's supposed to do, there would be no automatic signals and no trips.
Michael
Washington, DC
The trips (According to the NTSB report ~ Available on line) worked perfectly, but the newer equipment being lighter and having a different composition of brake shooes required longer stopping distances than the older equipments for which the signal system was designed.
Elias
Because he was asleep, not dead (yet)!
It is very easy to drouse out a bit while you are driving (a car or a train) yet still keep your hands on the controls.
Indeed, I can sleep all night long, and NEVER let go of my Teddy Bear!
: ) Elias
Mark
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
IND Express trains suffer from additional problems such as timers and congestion (from prior incidents and bad dispatching). I was on a northbound Queens Blvd EXP train yesterday evening (an R-32 F train) that hit between 39mph and 41mph on a few occasions. Most of the times we slowed down was because we entered a station. For those times, having field shunting probably would have resulted in a higher speed entering the station. Other times we slowed down due to timers and trains ahead of us. If those two things were not there, we would have attained higher speeds.
My point is that external forces are purposely slowing down the IND for "safety" issues. If you were to remove the "safety" issues and their associates cripples on the system, the IND could probably do 55mph regularly. But I don't think the "safety" issues will be removed until there is either:
1) a new signal system installed, or
2) a huge advancement in braking technology, or
3) the IND has all new subway cars, combined with a combination of the prior two conditions
I don't like it, but this is the way it is. That's why I'm going to Philadelphia on Monday and Washington, DC the next Monday -- to experience some real speed on rapid transit!
More the 50% of the railroad is on the surface or elevated.
Total system: 103 miles (165.76 kilometers),83 stations
Subway: 50.05 miles (80.58 kilometers), 47 stations
Surface: 43.75 miles (70.44 kilometers), 31 stations
Elevated: 9.22 miles (14.84 kilometers), 5 stations
Surface plus Elevated equals 52.95 miles (85.21 kilometers), 36 stations
One could consider WMATA to be a highbred transit system, not really an urban "subway" and not really a commuter railroad. WMATA is more like bart in how it serves it’s users then NYCTA, CTA or SEPTA’s Market Frankford and Broad Street lines. None of the five lines terminate in the urban core, however one of the lines terminates just outside urban core.
Both Blue and Orange line runs from terminal to terminal are over 60 minutes not by much mind you, but never the less it’s still greater then 60 minutes.
John
But I guess the best thing to say is this:
I have lived in the DC area all my life. I will admit than I am spoiled by the WMATA metrorail. The NYC subway is indeed a step down in quality, but what more can you expect from a system that never closes and runs faaaar more trains on faaaar more tracks through faaaaar more stations than metrorail?
Are we thinking of the same SEPTA?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
That's because they were designed to only operate at "design speed" on the 2nd Av Line, and that line hasn't been built yet.
Wayne
In Chicago, the north shore El seemed as slow as the New York City subway, but the other lines moved fast especially outside the CBD where stations were more widely dispersed. Washington is faster. So is Montreal. Is anyplace slower?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Just the other day I had a speed demon on the CPW Express that actually left a C in the dust. He perfectly anticipated the timers, and went at exactly the right speed to clear them all, and when the last 2 turned green, he FLOORED it on the downhill stretch coming into 110 St, we had to be going at least 45-50 MPH. I can only imagine what such a driver would have done with a set of R-10's before the days of timers...it makes me sick just thinking about it!
Also, try riding the Western branch of the Red Line. It's also very fast in some stretches.
The main reasons speed are high is the railroad is built to accommodate high speeds. Super elevations (banking) in curves, spiral transitions between tangents and curves in both horizontal and vertical curves.
The propulsion system is configured for 3.0 mph per second acceleration.
John
The NYCS is the slowest, crapiest, most broken down system system in the entire country and probably only ties the LUL re: systems world wide.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
The intesting point is this: other problems with the NYCT are being fixed or proposed to be fixed. But low operating speeds are not thought of as a problem. Indeed, the goal is to slow the system down to make a collision even less likely.
It's as if NYCT management has become risk-adverse to an extreme degree. Being cautious is one thing, but they've gone way too far.
Was the signal system, as it was originally designed, flawed from day 1 and this only became evident in the 1990's, or did something change between 1904 and the 1990's that caused the signal system to become inadequate?
As with passenger comfort that is also BAH. PATCO has g forces up the wazoo, but everyone gets used to them and I have never heard complaints except from first time riders. If the TA can subject its passengers too all that bucking their trains do crawling along at slow speeds.
They chose option 2 and removed the field shunting feature from the control equipment, reducing the top speed to around 40 MPH. It was the least expensive solution to the problem.
The NTSB Site has a .pdf of the Williamsburg Bridge crash and the NTSB's discoveries. It's worth the visit and the download.
If the trains accelerated to 40 and stayed there between stations, I don't think anyone would have a problem with it. Forty is fast enough. But it is seldom achieved.
What is field shunting?
DC series wound motors, used on streetcar (trams) and subway and elevated cars for generations, develop their power until the interal forces balance each other. By shunting part of the field, the motor can deliver additional power (and speed), causing the vehicle to operate faster.
Field shunting gives you that boost in full parallel when the car is not shut off.
The Willy B crash was nothing more than an EXCUSE by the MTA to completely and totally screw its customers.
Get the NTSB report, you can read for yourself.
Removing the field shunting was the cheapest solution to the problem.
If the money had been spent to upgrade the signal system all along, the crash would never have happened and the field shunting would have been retained.
Train Dude could have given the top speed after field shunting was disabled, but he stopped posting here.
The signal system was designed for cars with 2 100 HP motors. Over the years the cars came equipped with 4 125 to 150 HP motors.
Bigger motors, faster cars, same signal system. Understand what happened?
For a college graduate, you have a stangely small mind on many subjects.
Anyone can have a moment of inattention, and with so many T/Os making so many trips over so many years it is inevitable that someone will.
If a T/O falls asleep, goes into a coma, or dies, the threat of termination is of no consolation to the injured or killed passengers.
-Robert King
To install all the new timers takes money. Money for the new wires, signals, trippers, and etc. Since this signalling system is so old it costs alot to make parts that are compatible with it, right. So why doesn't the MTA just replace signalling system with a new one, instead of rebuilding it (timers)? Doesn't it cost the same in the end.
Sheesh, how often do you hear about accidents on SEPTA or the PATH.
The evidence suggests that if they ever had one like the Willie B incident, after the NTSB investigation they'd be going slower too.
You have never ridden "The Titanic" on NJT I see (although it might have been eliminated with the last new timetable). Many peak period commuter trains out of NYC carry more than 1000 people.
Railroads don't run at two-minute headways.
The North River tunnels run at between 24-28 tph during peak periods.
I understand that the MTA's goal is to reduce accidents, derailments, etc but doing so by slowing the system is not the way to go IMO.
I'll admit that I can't speak for eastern europe, but from what I have heard most forgien systems are newer, cleaner and faster. Of those systems that are not modern (LUL, Paris Metro, S/U Bahn and Moscow Subway) I know that no one can hold a candle to Moscow, I have ridden the LUL and its ties and Paris only gets poor marks for its small cars and lack of Railfan views. Finally I have never heard anything but praise for the S/U Bahn.
Errrmmmm... do you mean the Munich one, the Vienna one, the Berlin one or some other system in a German speaking country. Actually, it doesn't really matter - they're all good. I especially like the Munich S-Bahn - my one quibble is a neatness thing: they used to have lines numbered S1 to S8; they merged S3 and S8; you can guess which number they kept.
Anyway, Fritz could show us some things about investing in transit.
For an American, Germany is an amazing place. (Then again it's the only place outside the U.S. and Canada I've ever been).
o The cities are all miz-sized, not much like New York or Los Angeles.
o The mid-sized cities have excellent, rail-based transit.
o The development is fairly dense out to a border, and just stops. People can take a light rail line with an underground component out to farmland where they can rent gardens.
And, of course, the beer was good. I especially liked Kolsch in Cologne.
The downside -- not only did transit shut down after 10 pm, everything did. And the water was undrinkably awful.
I'm sure everyone but the French and Poles would agree.
Then again, the railways in Holland are every bit as amazing as the German ones.
(Then again it's the only place outside the U.S. and Canada I've ever been).
Sounds like you need a subway crawl across Europe!
And, of course, the beer was good.
Mine's a stein of dunkel!
not only did transit shut down after 10 pm, everything did.
It's not that bad everywhere - you can have quite a good night out in Leipzig!
And the water was undrinkably awful.
Why drink the water when you could have beer?
I'm sure the patrons of SEPTA would disagree with you there ;-)
Clearly, you haven't heard about how all TTC subway trains run in low performance mode? They were supposed to have made the transition to high performance mode on Yonge when the Gloucsters were retired except they didn't, and 10 years before, in 1980, they actually dropped down to low performance mode on the Bloor-Danforth line which used to be an H. P. mode operation.
The whole thing about low performance mode originated with the Gloucsters which were particularly slow due to being overweight. They were intended to be fast, like the current trains are supposed to be if they would turn the little key to high performance mode, except that went out when they discovered that each car weighed about 40% more than they'd anticipated and designed for. This is the reason why the TTC subway is as slow as it is - it is supposed to be, and was originally intended to be, much faster except the Gloucster goof set the standard here.
-Robert King
NYC trains sort of lurch and thud, eventually reaching 25-30 before beginning an agonizingly slow crawl up to 40, usually needing to slow down before they ever reach it.
Anyway, the New York subways are very old, and the cost of automating the whole thing without disrupting service too much is so great that it hasn't yet been done. But then again look at Broad Street. Still uses wayside signalling and manual operation, and is really fast.
PATH is under FRA jurisdiction, but it is not a subway. It looks like a subway and in many respects acts like a subway, but it isn't. It's a railroad.
David
a)Their system is more modern for one thing, having been in service since the early 70's with expansions over time
b) The stations are more spaced out than NYCT
c) With the implementation of CBTC [whenever that is] the trains could run without a T/O
Our system could be a bit faster IMO by removing some timers and all the wheel detectors, etc. Maybe they could raise the top speed on some of the trains too........
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Mark
Mark
So PHFTFTftftftftttttt.......
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
The subway uses standard DC motors with brushes, except on the R-142/3 which use AC induction.
The Airtrain uses LINEAR induction.
A motor works by having electromagnets inside repel each other causing the rotor to spin. A regular motor has windings on it that change polarity so that when the motor spins around there's still a repulsive force with the fixed magnets on the stator (body of motor). There are also brushless motors that reverse this and have fixed magnets (they can be electromagnets) on the rotor and changeable magnets on the stator. A linear induction system UNWRAPS the stator and places it on a rail between the running rails. A computer detects the train's location and powers up the magnets on the LIM rail which pushes and pulls the train. The trains lights and such are powered via induction from the LIM magnets, there is no regular third rail per se.
In the Airtrain system, trains will use third rail and the powered magnets will be on the train. The LIM rail will just be a metal plate with induced electrical current from the trains propulsion magnets.
CG
I'm sure a guy like Jersey Mike knows exactly how to get a business class seat at a coach (or lesser) price.
CG
Michael
CG
http://transfer.to/rmmarrero
(look at the bottom of the map) And how true is that no food policy. = And there are NO garbage cans in the whole system.
Mark
And the bare concrete is kind of blah. Give me colorful tile mosaics any day.
: )
Mark
You must carefully study each station to see the subtle differences each station has. Like the differences in the locations of the mezzanine to platform elevators in McPherson Square (C02) and Farragut West (C03), the differences in the shape of the coffers in Smithsonian (D02) compared the coffers in other stations with 22 coffer vault train halls, the depth of the coffers in Union Station (B03) compared the coffers in other stations. There subtle differences in every station of the same general design be it a 22 coffer vault train hall, a 6 coffer vault train hall or a 4 coffer vault train hall.
John
And the bare concrete still gets to me. See 181st Street for an idea of what can be done with a vaulted ceiling. (But don't look at 149th Street-Grand Concourse, where, with all the clutter in the way, it's impossible to tell that there's actually a vaulted ceiling. That station needs a rehab ASAP, and they'd better find somewhere else to put those rooms!)
Meh. It's just a flat brick arch. The walls are nice looking, but they're also like the walls of every other IRT station, most of which differ only in the name on the tile mosaic.
From floor to floor, I see lots of different colors -- not solid gray. Unfortunately the chandeliers have been removed.
The mosaics differ not only in text but also in color and design. That station alone has three different mosaic designs:
Nice shots.
Mark
OTOH, the intricate tilework found on IRT stations would cost an obcene amount of money to replicate today, especially at that scale.
Bottom line is, a typical DC Metro station would be far cheaper to build today than a typical deep-bore IRT station.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
All deep bore IRT stations were built using vaults.
Wow, that's pretty remarkable! That photo is pretty old seeing that the Polo Grounds shuttle closed in 1958, and that GO must have come from the Polo Grounds shuttle.
What even freaks me out though a bit, and am a little disturbed by, is that there appears to be a ghost of an R62 1 train next to it.
I must be seeing things.
There's no such thing as ghosts.
There's no such thing as ghosts.
There's no such thing as ghosts.
Then you've got oddballs like Anacostia...
wayne
Since I've been living in the DC area - I've had many people (non-transit fans) compare WMATA MetroRail to NYCTA. ...I'm often saying to them that it's not a fare comparison at all since (1) the oldest parts of NYCTA subway will be 100 years old soon and WMATA is barely 30 years old (2) WMATA shuts down each night and NYCTA operates 24/7 and WMATA has never endured a 70's deferred maintenance era.
WMATA did have trash receptacles but they were removed after 9/11 as part of the efforts to make the system safer from people with harmful intention.
Wayne
Wayne
Seriously what is the possibity of being caught. Nobody looked at me funny when I was eating.
As has been mentioned, the garbage cans were all removed after 9/11 as a security measure. New bomb-resistant cans have been installed in many places in the system now, but none are within the fare control areas afaik, just at the bottoms of the street escalators and elsewhere on the station mezzanines.
And also no bathrooms so the animals piss on the carpets near the railfan seat.
There are bathrooms in every station, however, they are locked and not open to the public. It used to be that station managers were required to open them for passengers who requested to use them, but at some point that policy was changed and they are effectively no longer usable by the public at all.
Also why so deep.
Almost all of the underground parts of the system are so deep because of a combination of being practical and geology. Cut and cover would have required too much rerouting of utilities and tearing up of the streets to be used everywhere. (One place that isn't deep is on the Green Line on U St., where the street was torn up for about 10 years during construction!) The geological portion has to do with the soil and rock under the DC area, some of which was deemed unstable to tunnel and run trains through, which required going deeper to get into solid rock instead.
And how true is that no food policy.
Enforcement used to be very strict, with anyone caught eating or drinking receiving a sizable fine or being arrested. However, since 9/11, I've observed a lot more people eating on the subway since law enforcement has had their attention diverted. Eating is still likely to get you dirty looks from just about every regular subway rider though.
wayne
Acoustical test were done in Metro Center (A01, C01) back in 1973 to determine if the Acoustical treatment applied to the station achieved the desired result. Test firings with a shotgun were done with sound recording equipment strategically placed around the station. The test reviled that the station had acoustical properties equivalent to a concert hall.
John
wayne
Every station is identified by a letter number code system based on the route letter assigned to the route and the station number as assigned in ascending order as the route radiates away from the geographic center of the system. Each of these numbers identifies the station and the adjoining area of track that the local wayside train control room controls. The 4 two level transfer stations where the lines cross a 90 degrees (Metro Center, Gallery Place, L'Enfant Plaza and Fort Totten) have 2 letter number codes assigned to them one for each route that passes through the station. * At present there are 2 wayside train control rooms that do not have station within their control area C11 and J01. Number descending from 99 are assigned to yards, yard leads and junctions that are not within the control area of an adjacent station way side train control room. The letter number code system is technically assigned to the Remote Terminal Unit (RTU) in the stations train control room or the way side train control room between stations and in yards.
The RTU is the data link interface between the way side train control room and the central control room at WMATA headquarters. Every station in the system has a RTU. The RTU also allows supervisors to control other system such as traction power and other system that are not directly related to the safe movement of trains, such as fan and vent shaft status, pumping station status, intrusion, fire and smoke detection.
A99 Shady Grove Yard
A15 Shady Grove
A14 Rockville
A13 Twinbrook
A12 White Flint
A11 Grosvenor
A10 Medical Center
A09 Bethesda
A08 Friendship Heights
A07 Tenleytown
A06 Van Ness
A05 Cleveland Park
A04 Woodley Park-Zoo
A03 Dupont Circle
A02 Farragut North
A01 Metro Center
B01 Gallery Place
B02 Judiciary Square
B03 Union Station
B?? New York Avenue (will likely be B97)
B99 Brentwood Yard
B04 Rhode Island Ave
B05 Brookland-CUA
B06 Fort Totten
B07 Takoma
B08 Silver Spring
B09 Forest Glen
B10 Wheaton
B11 Glenmont
B98 Glenmont Yard
C15 Huntington
C14 Eisenhower Avenue
C99 Alexandra Yard
C98 Alexandra Yard lead
C97 C And J Junction
C13 King Street
C12 Braddock Road
C11 Potomac Yard *
C10 National Airport
C09 Crystal City
C08 Pentagon City
C07 Pentagon
C06 Arlington Cemetery
C05 Rosslyn
C04 Foggy Bottom
C03 Farragut West
C02 Mcpherson Square
C01 Metro Center
D01 Federal Triangle
D02 Smithsonian
D03 L'Enfant Plaza
D04 Federal Center SW
D05 Capitol South
D06 Eastern Market
D07 Potomac Ave
D08 Stadium-Armory
D98 D and G Junction
D09 Minnesota Avenue
D10 Deanwood
D11 Cheverly
D12 Landover
D13 New Carrollton
D99 New Carrollton Yard
E99 Greenbelt Yard
E10 Greenbelt
E09 College Park
E08 Prince George's Plaza
E07 West Hyattsville
E06 Fort Totten
E05 Georgia Avenue-Petworth
E04 Columbia Heights
E03 U Street
E02 Shaw
E01 Mount Vernon Square
F01 Gallery Place
F02 Archives
F03 Waterfront
F04 Navy Yard
F05 Anacostia
F06 Congress Heights
F07 Southern Avenue
F08 Naylor Road
F09 Suitland
F10 Branch Avenue
F99 Branch Avenue (Yard)
G01 Benning Road
G02 Capitol Heights
G03 Addison Road
G04 Summerfield
G05 Largo Town Center
J03 Franconia-Springfield
J02 Van Dorn Street
J01 Quaker Lane *
K08 Vienna
K07 Dunn Loring
K99 Falls Church Yard
K06 West Falls Church
K05 East Falls Church
K04 Ballston
K03 Virginia Square
K02 Clarendon
K01 Court House
The following are speculation on my part.
M14 Middletown Road (VA 277)
M13 Morgan Road (VA 606)
M98 Dulles Yard Lead
M99 Dulles Yard
M12 Dulles pocket
M11 Washington Dulles International Airport
M10 Sulley Road (VA 28)
M09 Herndon Monrow
M08 Reston Parkway
M07 Wiehle Avenue
M06 Wolf Trap
M05 Tyco Road (Tyson West)
M04 Pike Seven Plaza (Tyson Central C)
M03 Tyson Center (Tyson Central D)
M02 West Park (Tyson East)
M01 Dulles Connector Road
K98 K and M Junction
John
What happened to H and L?
So they decided on the Dulles line?
Quaker Lane?
What happened to H and L?"
The H Route is now called the J route south of Van Dorn (J02). The original J route terminal was to be at the never built Backlick Road station as shown on the 1974 Adopted Regional System (ARS).
The L route has no RTUs. The RTUs in Pentagon (C07) and L'Enfant Plaza (D03) control the L route.
"So they decided on the Dulles line?"
Decided that is going to built or decided on letter assignment?
The WMATA board of directors has approved the Locally Preferred Alternative (LPA) from the Draft Environmental Impact Statement (DEIS). Funding requests have been made with Federal Transit Administration (FTA). Service to Wiehle Avenue (M07) is proposed to start in 2009. Proposed completion of the line to Middletown Road (VA 277) (M14) in Loudoun County is 2015.
The letter assignment is pure speculation on my part. It is based on what I know about how the existing letters have been assignment. H and I have been thrown out. H because it was formally assigned to a route that was never built. I (eye) because the letter look to much like the number 1 (one).
"Quaker Lane?"
The Quaker Lane (J01) RTU controls the segment of main line tracks between the Alexandria Yard Lead (C98) and the east end of the Van Dorn Street (J02) RTU. Before the original ARS was adopted in 1968, plans called for future provision for a station to be built at the foot of Quaker Lane, Future provision were not built for a station at this location. The location of the station was just west of where the west end of the Alexandria Yard lead tracks connect to the main line.
John
Should read;
The L route has no RTUs. The RTUs in Pentagon (C07) and L'Enfant Plaza (F03) control the L route.
John
Welcome to law and order.
"Its a strange architecture", everyone's open to their own opinion, for me though I'll choose it over the "traditional" subway design.
Also, ABSOLUTLY NO FOOD OR DRINK! Adds to the cleanliness of the stations.
"no bathrooms so the animals piss near the railfan seat" what are you talking about???
There are no public restrooms in the station, though there are pilot programs to build self cleaning restrooms outside the stations.
There are restrooms in the stations, but its up to the discretion of the station manager.
People who love in the DC Metro usually live in the DC area and rely on it.
People who love the NYC subway usually in the NYC area and rely on it.
People who ride the Chicago EL love it beacause they rely on it.
etc. etc. etc..
Each system has their PROS and CONS, No one system can be like New York, Washington, Boston, each system is taylored to their own city. YOU CAN'T COMPARE!
Nuts.
Circumstances are different, but there are enough commonalities that one can learn from what other cities do right -- and wrong.
There is nothing wrong with living in one city and liking the systems of another...but you really cannot fairly compare one system to another.
Why?
because different systems were built at different times....to servie different purposes.
Hey, I live in southern California. Sure we have a subway system in our area. I think it sucks. I ove the New York system, it has variety. It has lots of trains. It actually goes somewhere.
Next thing you'll tell me is that Santa gets all of his toys by shoplifting at Duane Reade. Geez, I tell ya.........
Much as I love NYC to the point of obsession, I don't like the low platforms full of columns. The WMATA platforms with the exposed mezzanines (the 21 st Queensbridge station is perhaps our closest equivalent) seem to me the perfect architectural solution. I wouldn't want 468 of them ...
: ) Elias
...and people who ride SEPTA hate it because the rely on it.
: )
Actually, I love Philly's trains as a railfan, I just have a lot of problems with the practical utility of the system (it needs a lot more lines, better late night and crosstown service, etc.) and I have a lot of cleanliness issues as far as SEPTA is concerned.
Mark
That's why DC stations have clear sight lines, and walls that can't be reached.
The tall, monumental station design is because the President wanted a system that looked monumetal, and not just functional.
3 reasons for the deeper stations:
1) While the stations were cut-and-cober, much of the tunneling was bored (much like plans for 2nd ave.) In order to get to good rock, they had to go deep.
2) DC area has many hills and valleys. This leads to different depths of stations, including some very deep ones.
3) Because of the high vaulted ceilings, you have to go further to get to the platform, even if the top of the ceiling is right below the street.
NCPC had a large part in the final decision of the base architectural design. Harry Weese and Associates was the general architectural consultant contracted by WMATA to come up with a design appropriate for the National Capitol. Many systems around the world were looked at to find the what was the best features and what were the worst. One of the napkin ideas was similar to the Moscow Metro (hanging light fixtures). The features that were most important were common design, similar surface finishes, clear views on the platforms and mezzanines and in passageways, walls that were graffiti resistant, indirect lighting to lower glare and straight platforms.
John
For the vastness of the stations...this is so that cameras have a good view of everyone on the platforms...you can't hide from them like in other systems. Plus, the walls are away from the sides of the platforms on side platforms to prevent griffiti.
I never noticed the lack of trash cans.
I've never heard of or seen evidence of people urinating on trains...
The lighting had something to do with the way it reacts with the trains...to "alert" passengers in a way.
You seriously have a problem with a clean subway?
Mark
Harry Wesse and Associates was the general architectural consultant for WMATA.
At the time WMATA was building metro the federal local share was 80% federal funds 20% local funds. About 75% of the system was built using this funding formula the remainder of the system was funded with a 60% 40% split. The G Route Blue line extension to Largo is closer to 50% federal funds 50% local funds.
A lot of people bitch and moan at what they perceive to be a costly designs used in the stations. Well I got news for you the designs used for the stations is a very efficient design that is based on an arch. The amount of material used in the stations is significantly less the what would be needed to build a station with the same floor square footage using a box vault design. The common design used also had the advantage in that the tooling used in the concrete forms was used in multiple stations. Spend some time up in Baltimore and look at some of their box vault stations. The amount of concrete surfaces in the structures of some of the station are at least 30% greater then WMATA stations.
John
I am not going to make a blanket statement that yes it cheaper. What I will say an arch requires much less steel and concrete to build, and logically would lead me to believe it to be less. This is based on a station with no columns on platforms or between tracks. Now when one compares a box station with no columns on platforms or between tracks to box station with columns. Without question the station with columns will be cheaper. A box station with columns on platforms or between tracks will also be cheaper then either an arch station or box station with no columns along platform.
A station be it box or arch built as cut and cover at the same depth to top of rail will require the same amount of material to be excavate. The only difference is how much back fill will be put back in the excavation based on box stations mezzanine and entrance configuration.
A box is easy to design and engineer and is cheep when built close to the surface, structural requirements grow as the depth increases. The engineering of an arch remains basically the same regardless of the depth. Mind you we are talking cut and cover construction of stations. In Baltimore all of the subway stations are island platform layout with bored tunnels between station. When bored tunnels between stations are used stations are generally deeper. The mezzanines in the Baltimore station are part of the structure of the station and they function as struts to hold the side wall from caving in. The WMATA arch design does not have or need struts. The distance from top of rail to the ceiling in a Baltimore station is much greater then in a standard WMATA arch station, which averages around 33’ 10.05m. One of the reasons is because the thickness of the structural elements of the struts in the mezzanines and some of the stations have two mezzanine levels above the platform in the train hall.
The stations excavated out bedrock, Rosslyn (C05), Dupont Circle (A03) to Medical Center (A10) use the same arch design as the other stations to maintain continuity with the design of cut and cover stations. Forest Glen (B09) and Wheaton (B10) were also excavated out of out bedrock. One of the reasons these stations have twin train halls is because of the geology. None of the arches in the stations excavated out bedrock are structural. They are cosmetic and built in a gallery excavated out bedrock and simply cover the structural elements that hold the roof of the gallery up.
John
In my opinion:
Best:
1) "28th Street" station in "The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3": This was actually shot at Court Street, now the Transit Museum. The movie producers did a nice job dressing up the wall across from the platform in IRT style-tile with small "28" tiles. Of course, the real 28/Lex station doesn't have a wall like this, but it looked pretty convincing.
2) "42nd Street" station in "Ghost": This was shot in the lowel level of 42nd/8th. They made the station look like it was being regularly used by adding a few touches, like blowing newspapers, discarded soda cans and vending machines. Of course, vending machines were long gone from the subways by the time "Ghost" was shot (1989-90), especially cigarette vending machines.
Worst:
1) "59th Street" station in "Crocodile Dundee": It was painfully obvious that the station at the end of the movie was not 8/42 but 9th Avenue lower on the Culver. The "9" tablets on the station walls can clearly be seen and the lighting fixtures (bare bulbs) look ancient.
2) The entire subway system on the remake of "Pelham." Could this look any LESS like the NYC subway?
French Connection: The fast food place near the shuttle platform even fooled me the fact that there never was an eatery at the Grand Central side of the shuttle line.
Taking of Pelham 1-2-3, agreed with Mitch45 here.
The Incident: Long time since I recall seeing this gritty 1967 film on late night TV, but the interiors of the old subway car looked real enough for the 3rd Ave el.
Worst mockups:
Die Hard WAV (III), the phoniest look Wall St/IRT station you ever saw. Decent overall film though.
Coming to America: Supthin Blvd/Hillside was a LOCAL station, not an express station as depicted in the movie.
Someone else mentioned the Odd Couple episode. The mock up may have been poor but the episode was funny with Scatman Cruthers playing a blind pencil seller with a pregnant seeing eye dog. Scatman turned out not to have been blind. The episode featured Felix bringing out "Harvey Hanky" to break up the tension.
As for 'proff,' it's a running gag most people use since in earlier times, Salaam used to type this word incorrectly all the time, hence its usage.
The ending was NOT part of the Jerome Line either (Brook Ave is on the Pelham Line.)
wayne
http://www.cbssc.com/backlot/backlotpic06.htm
The backround of that photo seems to be completely computer generated, it's not even a mock-up. The doors, rollsign unit, ceiling, etc are all computer generated, and not even a set.
An episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer used one like that too. Come to think of it a lot of shows (although I can't remember which ones exactly) use the "gun slot" type windows.
IIRC the mock up in the aforementioned episode was so-so. It was a redbird type car, set in the 80's, and the end seats sat against the bulkhead wall facing into the car. And IIRC the sidesigns didn't match any route (as is common it seems).
It was set in the 70s.
A good mock-up was the R-16 in the second (1976) King Kong movie. The only things they got wrong were the axiflo fan diameters (too small) and the storm door window didn't have a crossbar. They even got the slanted door-motor pockets right!
A not-so-good mock-up was the one in the Odd Couple episode.
wayne
There was indeed a fast-food eatery on the Grand Central side of the shuttle. It was located along the passageway between the shuttle and the Lexington Ave. 4, 5 & 6 (Track 1 of the shuttle was behind it). I remember its being in operation during the late 1950's and may have lasted into the 1980's. It had counter service, and was first known as the Shuttle Bar, later becoming a Nedick's.
I think the subway scene in "The Exorcist" ("Couldja help an old altar boy, faddah ?") was Penn Station / 34th Street on the IRT West Side line.
Shot in NYC Subway but
BAD SUBWAY Form
I'm still not sure which IRT station was used in the opening scene of Green Card.
I believe the el at Queensboro Plaza was used for a scene in Dog Day Afternoon. If so, it obviously was not Brooklyn.
I totally agree about Crocodile Dundee. There appeared to be no real attempt to fix the station up to look like the 5th Ave BMT station or the 59th Street IRT station. They should probably have gone for the BMT Lexington Ave. station, because it was near the Plaza Hotel and had a single center platform like lower 9th Ave.
As you can see here, 9th Avenue Lower Level is not a single island platform. Its two island platforms, which wouldn't make for a good 60/Lex either.
I agree with those who have said the best mock up was the 1974 version of Pelham. Despite some glaring disparities (or at least glaring to foamers and other like minded individuals) they did a pretty good job.
wayne
By the way, Lou from Brooklyn gave this link on this board a few months ago of a short movie that took place entirely inside 6688 at Branford which looked pretty realistic.
No scene from there. The train coming out of the tunnel was the 1 train emerging at Dyckman St.
"I'm not sure what el is, or is supposed to be, visible, down the block from Lopez' flat on Prospect Place, Bklyn. All I can think of is the Franklin Avenue shuttle"
That was the Franklin Ave Shuttle at Park Place station with pre-GOH R32's.
Jimmy
I love the scenes where the demons come for Willie, under the El, with a cobblestone street still visable. The darkness under Myrtle-Broadway seems perfect for that scene!
A previous message in this thread confirms that one street scene outside Willie Lopez' apartment has the Franklin Avenue shuttle, Park Place station in the background, with R-32's going by. However, you've answered what my next question was going to be : weren't some scenes of Oda Mae Brown's (Whoopi Goldberg's) store front filmed near B'way/Myrtle ?
I agree with you about the scene under the el at Myrtle/Bway where the demons come for Willie. I agree, it's perfect for that. I'd forgotten about the cobblestones !
I mentioned that scene to a friend about a year after I'd first seen the film, and he commented wryly, "So the entrance to hell is three el stops from your home ?"
Hey, do you remember Crazy George on the motorcycle?
No, I don't remember Crazy George on the motorcycle. Who was he, and where did he ride ?
Here's the link. The link should have the trolleys for a few days, they change the link weekly, some time around Mon or Tues. So for now the link will bring you to the trolleys.
- Growing up riding R 27's and 30's on the M and J lines
- R 9's on the Canarsie line
- B 38 buses to Seneca and Grandview Ave
- Neat row homes on every block
- Block parties
- The "King Kong" ride that drove around the neighborhood
- Guidos
- Rockheads
- The Mafia. You had a hit on Licata's on Forest Ave, and one on Knickerbocker where Carmine Galante died with cigar in mouth
- Going to Rockaway by taking M to L to A to C trains
- Olympia Gym on Fresh Pond
- Fresh Pond station on the LIRR
- Little leagues
- Softball leagues
- and so much more
Man do I miss those grafittied wrecks. I never would have thought I would back then....
- R 9's on the Canarsie line
I'm too young to remember that, although I have a vague memory of riding one through the 14th St tubes when I was a very young child. The vision I have of that though may be an R16, which I know I rode on the L when I was a bit older.
- The "King Kong" ride that drove around the neighborhood
Oh man, I forgot about that thing!!!! And what about "The Wip".
- The Mafia. You had a hit on Licata's on Forest Ave, and one on Knickerbocker where Carmine Galante died with cigar in mouth
Wasn't there also a hit on Myrtle Ave near Wyckoff in that diner? I know there was some kind of mafia killing there, and the news showed the gory details of the blood on Myrtle Ave's brick sidewalk in front of the diner.
- Going to Rockaway by taking M to L to A to C trains
Please, stop it. You are making me very nostalgic. I used to take the M to the L to the A to the H (and later the C) in the 80's. I used to love how the L would be underground, above ground, ten underground, just to come back out again between Myrtle and BJ. I would usually take the C to the A to the J to the M on the return trips from the beach for a change of scenery.
Sigh...
- Olympia Gym on Fresh Pond
I think that is still there after all these years.
- Fresh Pond station on the LIRR
Another tear forming in the eye....many happy a time there photographing the trains, waiting or getting off the trains, or just hanging out as a teenager. What a pit that "station" was.
- and so much more
Indeed. I would probably never move back again, but I would never want to change the fact that I grew up there. Great memories.
Woolworth's(the old one near Catalpa and Ondedonk)
Merken's Ice Cream Shop
Jobst and Ebbinghaus(German butcher that used to be on Gates and Seneca)
Sammet's on Linden and Ondedonk
I saw one film at the Oasis Cinema, "For The Love of Benji" in mid-January 1976. My next-door neighbor saw "The Exorcist" there, summer 1974. For the Oasis as roller rink, I defer to GP 38 Chris.
I recall a Kresge's and a Woolworth's on the north side of Myrtle Avenue, between Seneca and Onderdonk Avenues. I remember the back of Kresge's fronting on Onderdonk just southeast of Catalpa Avenue and
the Geis Funeral Home. The Robbins Discount Store that replaced it did the same. I am not sure about Woolworth's having a rear entrance on Onderdonk. My family and I referred to, and thought of, Kresge's and Woolworth's as the "first and second five and tens", the "third five and ten" being H.L. Green's on the north side of Myrtle Avenue just west of Forest Avenue.
I remember Murken's, again on the north side of Myrtle, between Forest and 71st Avenues, diagonally across from Ridgewood Savings Bank. I last ate at Murken's with a friend from Cypress Hills in the
summer of 1982. I think it is now a Chinese fast food place. I liked Murken's, because it was an old-fashioned dessert parlor like Koletty's, on the northeast corner of Myrtle and Palmetto, was, and it lasted much longer. I think Koletty's was gone by the mid-60's.
Two items I remember from the Murken's menu were the Broadway frappe and the Nabisco sundae.
I don't remember Jobst and Ebbinghaus German butcher at Gates and Seneca. I do remember Schaller and Weber on the south side of Myrtle just west of Hancock, and the German ladies in there asking for "ein
schtick!"(one piece). There was Trunz on the north side of Myrtle just east of Seneca, near Horn and Hardart, and Karl Ehmer somewhere on Fresh Pond Road. Also a butcher named Abe Zipper on Catalpa Avenue between Seneca and Myrtle.
Sammett's on the corner of Onderdonk and Linden is very near and dear to me, as my dad's retirement dinner was held there mid-January 1987.
His retirement was from working 42 years at Ridgewood Savings Bank.
I ate at Sammett's with two dates in 1990, the second of which became my wife. Seven years later, my mother's funeral was from the nearby Morton Funeral Home.
I saw one film at the Oasis Cinema, "For The Love of Benji" in mid-January 1976. My next-door neighbor saw "The Exorcist" there, summer 1974. For the Oasis as roller rink, I defer to GP 38 Chris.
Much of the old Oasis survived the transformation from movie theater to roller rink. As a child I saw a few Disney movies there, and as a teenager, I skated there many times. All the great old light fixtures, and plaster work were all still there. They kind of flashed the ornate glass-stained wall fixtures with the music sometimes, but at least they were still operable. They lit them up at the end of the sessions. They tore out all the seats for the rink, and put huge pyramids in the middle of the theatre. The screen area became neon dancing Egyptians, with the ornate plasterwork still around it. The balcony was intact, and all the seats could still be seen when rolling down below.
It closed in the late 80's or so, and got boarded up, a few years later the Oasis burned. Today part of the Oasis survives as CVS on Fresh Pond Road.
I recall a Kresge's and a Woolworth's on the north side of Myrtle Avenue, between Seneca and Onderdonk Avenues. I remember the back of Kresge's fronting on Onderdonk just southeast of Catalpa Avenue and
the Geis Funeral Home. The Robbins Discount Store that replaced it did the same. I am not sure about Woolworth's having a rear entrance on Onderdonk.
Woolworths had an exit in the back when I was a kid. The exit was closed in the late 70's or early 80's. The Woolworths itself survived until about 1992 or so.
H.L. Green's on the north side of Myrtle Avenue just west of Forest Avenue.
Was that where McCrory's was later?
I remember Murken's, again on the north side of Myrtle, between Forest and 71st Avenues, diagonally across from Ridgewood Savings Bank. I last ate at Murken's with a friend from Cypress Hills in the
summer of 1982. I think it is now a Chinese fast food place.
Yes, I remember Murken's also. I also last had an ice cream there around 1982 or so. They had such a great mosaic tile floor. Some years later it had a fire, I remember looking in and seeing debris on that floor. I think they fixed it up, but it closed a few years later to become "just another Chineese Food" Restaurant (And they covered the floor!).
I do remember Schaller and Weber on the south side of Myrtle just west of Hancock, and the German ladies in there asking for "ein
schtick!"(one piece).
Heh! "Ein Schtick!" I remember that well at all the butcher stores. There were many Karl Ehmers. The Schaller and Weber became a check cashing place in the late 80's.
It's just over the Queens side of the borough line. What has often caused confusion is the fact that the Postal Service considered Ridgewood part of Brooklyn. Some years back, Ridgewood residents successfully lobbied to get a Queens zip code, an effort that required quite a bit of political string-pulling, because insurance companies use zip codes to set auto insurance rates and the Queens rates were far lower than the Brooklyn rates. Many Ridgewood residents saved hundreds of dollars a year on their auto premiums thanks to the zip code change.
Doesn't say much for the intelligence of auto insurance companies, does it?
Chris, you make an interesting point about Brooklyn street names versus the Queens numbering system. My dad once told me that Cornelia Street used to extend to Fresh Pond Road, like Putnam Avenue still does. Ridgewood and Glendale are two neighborhoods where not only Brooklyn street names and Queens numbered streets meet, but the Brooklyn and Queens house numbering systems meet as well.
There is a jump in house numbers on Cornelia Street crossing Wyckoff Avenue from Brooklyn to Queens from 400 to 1600, to be comparable with the house numbers on adjacent Putnam and Jefferson Avenues, longer streets that continue west south west past Broadway, out of Bushwick, and into Bed-Stuy, to where they begin at Fulton Street.
I've always found it interesting that a small part of the 14th Street Canarsie Line, between Halsey Street and Wilson Avenue stations, is actually in Queens.
If I'm not mistaken, the Manhattan-bound track and platform is in Queens, while the Canarsie-bound track and platform's in Brooklyn.
From Wyckoff and Eldert to where the Canarsie-bound side comes out of the ground near Irving and Moffat, the entire line is in Queens.
Nitpickers, feel free to refine and comment.
You're right, that is quite a montage of subway shots there.
wayne
And I don't think it was a side platform at PP...It looked like the Brighton to me...although I wasn't buying their portrayal of 7th Avenue...
And how the hell you gonna have a 3 car cut of R30's? They didn't have singles like that!
One more thing: What the hell was the B doing on the Brighton? Were they forecasting the present condition of the B slated to go there next year?
And funny, I don't recall seeing DeKalb Avenue...either that or there was no 7th Avenue...
Dyre Ave
Grand Central
South Ferry
in that order, which doesn't make much sense because the bottom rollsign should be the route.
Does anyone remember the I Love Lucy mock-up? It showed many shots of Low-V's running on the IRT, and there was a station mock-up of Bleecker and Flatbush Ave.
By the way, I didn't realize your Twilight Zone comment was not really filmed on location, that's why I asked about the tiles.
The "I Love Lucy" mockup is mentioned somewhere back in the "Best/Worst Subway Movie and TV Mockups" thread.
I reasoned as much about your "tiles" question. That's why I mentioned that the TZ scene was not filmed on location.
No. Not really.
How many times do I have to go over this one with you guys?
During a chase scene in the movie No Way Out with Kevin Costner...
There is a chase scene in Georgetown where he supposedly enters a Metro Station on the Red Line called Georgetown--on the mock up of the pylon, it actually had the name "Georgetown" and a Red stripe one it....
it gets better...
As he goes down the escalater---he shows up in the Charles Center station in Baltimore (of course, the movie makes you believe its DC).
it gets better still.....
As he comes out of the system, he appears in a shopping mall--in all actuality, it is "The Old Post Office" which is across the street from the Federal Triangle Station on the Blue/Orange Lines.
It amazes me, the power of Hollywood
Mark
In the movie "City Hall" a man jumps the turnstile at the Marcy Ave/BMT station, boards the R42, M train and travels it for one stop; to the same Marcy station he entered a few minutes ago.
Only in Hollywood East Coast.
Why bother to do it wrong if you can do it right?
Take Becker, the TV show supposedly set in the Bronx. Don't you think they'd have had more material if it was really about the Bronx?
Perhaps the Costner character, revealed to be a KGB agent at the end, had access to secret D.C. to Baltimore transit not available to us ordinary citizens.
The following seems pertinent, both to this, and to Arnold Schwarzenegger running for governor of California. It's from the 1993 film, "The Last Action Hero". Arnie's character has just seen a display of "Stallone : Terminator 2" in a video store. His companion, a boy of eight, says to him : "Don't you get it ? It's not real ! It's a movie !" Arnie replies, "It's California !"
I was living at 22nd Street and Massachusetts Avenue when these seines were shot
Foot chase on streets near Dupont Circle that end up in going down the Q Street entrance to the Dupont Circle station.
Once in the station you found Tom Hanks in the Baltimore Metro.
John
wayne
Yes.
One that I know of was Tom Clancy TV movie that was on NBC. Don’t recall who was in it or the plot line. There was seine shot in the Foggy Bottom Station (C04) on the down escalator from the mezzanine to platform. One of the actors boarded the train to Virginia.
John
On the animation scene, Tom and Jerry's "Jerry Takes Manhattan" has a BMT Standard at 42 Street, and a great re-creation of the GWB. The Real Ghostbusters have an episode when the subway cars and their graffiti come to life, in the white scheme no doubt.
TV shows like "In Living Color" and "The Tracy Ullman Show" had stage mock-ups of the interior of R1-R9 which weren't that bad. "The Odd Couple" had a sad imitation interior of a possible R17, R16, R21/22. And then, there's the "Seinfeld" episode of trying to get to Coney Island. Sad mock-up, used on both A and B Division trains, but at least side rollsigns were acurate. And the episode was funny. The shows with great subway footage during opening credits: Night Court, The Equalizer, Welcome Back, Kotter, Cagney and Lacey, and NYPD Blue.
Great movie set-up, Night Shift with Henry Winkler and Michael Keaton on the 42 St Shuttle, Pelham 1-2-3, Beat Street, Dreams Don't Die, Saturday Night Fever, The Warriors, French Connection, Wild Style, and Fort Apache-The Bronx.
Jimmy
wayne
Lucy and Ethel were on the IRT that had seating that looked like it belonged on a Standard!!! I think Mike, Gloria and Archie took the same train about 20 years later. When Rhoda had to take the train to her own wedding (because Phyllis forgot to drive her because Phyllis was at Bergdorfs' coordinating her accessories), Rhoda entered the subway at 72/ Bway, and got the #6 at 68/ Lex to go to the Grand Concourse!!!!!!!!!!! At least Rhoda REALLY got on a REAL IRT train in her wedding gown!!!!!!!
Tony Leong
--Mark
Not very realistic at all!
Tony Leong
Well, they tried to mimick a New York subway station, anyway.
til next time
til next time
til next time
*********************************************************************
Amtrak President David L. Gunn was not happy with how the Bush Administration’s plans for Amtrak came about. Nobody asked Amtrak officials for their ideas.
He told reporters on July 28, “Amtrak wasn’t asked to work on developing the plan and hasn’t been consulted or briefed on it. Consequently, we’ll withhold commenting until such time as we are briefed.”
Gunn added, “That said, we expect the administration to continue a responsible course of action supporting Amtrak’s present operations, capital projects and improved efficiency and service. At the same time, Amtrak will continue its critical mission and responsibility to serve our passengers and run the railroad.”
He said the railroad will need every dollar it has asked for to make improvements.
“While federal policymakers and others debate the structure and funding of passenger rail service, Amtrak will continue to do its job. That’s why we will continue to put every effort into securing the $1.8 billion in federal support needed next year to fund the capital projects that are needed right now to run safely and reliably.”
Among his top priorities is catenary between Washington and New Rochelle, N.Y., where Amtrak tracks join Metro-North for about 56 miles to New Haven, Conn.
“The importance of spending money on capital projects immediately cannot be overstated. Two weeks ago, aging catenary wires fell apart in New York. This one incident resulted in a 24-hour service disruption between New York and Boston.”
He also stated two electric engines were recently destroyed.
“Years of deferred maintenance also resulted in the loss of two AEM-7 electric engines. While we are aggressively rebuilding our AEM-7s, they are failing almost as fast as they can be rebuilt.”
There are five movable bridges between New Haven and Mystic, Conn., two of which are nearly beyond repair.
“Two movable bridges in Connecticut dating from the early 1900s – the Thames River and the Niantic River bridges – are in danger of failing, and if they do, it will stop service between New Haven and Boston until they are fixed or replaced.”
Gunn said fixing the railroad should be the No. 1 priority.
“The gravity of this immediate need to maintain Amtrak’s operational reliability vastly overshadows any debate over the plan introduced today. As a practical matter, the Bush administration, which is represented on Amtrak’s board of directors, has averted crisis over the past 12 months, even when this approach has taken us to the 11th hour. Acting in the best interest of millions of rail passengers in the short term while the long-term policy debate evolves is a goal to which all parties – the Administration, Congress and Amtrak – should adhere.”
******************************************************************
Shit, I had no idea the AEM's were in such bad shape and if one of those movable bridges go the folks in Boston are in Screwedsville.
Excessive water drops a transformer onto a train in service in GCT.
Two smoke incidents result in ambiguous emergency procedures. Conscientious, but ambiguous. These result in uninformed, panicked and injured passengers, and no subsequent correction from the MTA.
Gunn's told Congress about the catenaries, and I've experienced them first hand. Congress get ready to hand him his hat.
NJT has broken down and paid refunds.
There have been two derailments in a week, one with injuries, and what looks like an attempt to blame a line employee for it, before it is determined to be chronic failure of a single equipment component.
Maintenance is understaffed and no one is being hired.
And now there's a movable bridge across the (oh my God) Kills ....
I am BUYING the rights to this story before it happens, and finding myself a literary agent.
There was only one derailment, they caught the other problem before the train derailed.
I just saw a report on Channel 7 news in which the MTA stated that the doors were opened as soon as the train was fully berthed in the station. They also stated that the cause of the accident was a piece of the brake mechanism that came loose and contacted the 3rd rail.
Okay, so something broke loose and caused an explosion. I have the sense that the train was not fully in the station at the time. So there's an explosion and maybe the train went into emergency. Now it would take a bit of time for the crew to ascertain what happened, call command center and get orders. That might take 5 minutes or so. During this time, I'm sure the crew was busy, so it wasn't possible to give a complete report to the people.
People panicked in the meanwhile and kicked windows out to get out. A very difficult situation, which thankfully didn't have any horrible consequences.
My problem is with the MTA's statement that the doors were opened as soon as the train was fully berthed. Uh, how long did that take? Why don't you explain the process involved in this particular situation, rather than put your own spin on the situation?
If you are going to have two people on a train, perhaps the policy should be that one person responds to the incident and the other communicates to the passengers. Just talk, to keep people calm. The conductor could have simply go on the horn and repeated what the TA policy is in such a circumstance, why that is the policy, what is being done, and what will happen next. If no one said anything, and people were breathing smoke, of course they would panic and break the windows, which could be deadly.
BTW, did they turn off the AC right away so the smoke was not blown into the cars? Is that the policy?
If the smoke is thicker outside the train, you let it in.
Mark
ROLL #1 - SOUTH TERMINAL
BAY PARKWAY [added circa 1968]
SIXTH AV.-34TH ST.
HOUSTON-2ND AV.
HOUSTON-LAFAYETTE ST.
HUDSON TERMINAL
FULTON-EUCLID AV.
FULTON-LEFFERTS BLVD.
SMITH-9TH ST.
AQUEDUCT
WAVE CREST [featured on some rolls, otherwise blank]
MOTT AV.-FAR ROCKAWAY
ROCKAWAY PARK
B'KLYN-CHURCH AV.
KINGS HIGHWAY
CONEY ISLAND
NO PASSENGERS
SPECIAL
Note: B'KLYN-HOYT ST. and FULTON-EAST N.Y. might have been featured on the original, much older side rolls (but their placement is unknown at this time), because they were seen on even on the front destination signs as well. I had seen a vintage-1960's photo of an R-10 train with a FULTON-ROCKAWAY AV. front destination sign, but I think that was a format reprint or transplant from the R-1/9 series.
ROLL #2 - NORTH TERMINAL
57th STREET [added circa 1968]
WASH. HTS.-207TH ST.
WASH. HTS.-168TH ST.
CONCOURSE-205TH ST.
CONCOURSE-BEDFORD PK.
JAMAICA-179TH ST.
JAMAICA-169TH ST. [on some older rolls, otherwise blank]
JAMAICA-PARSONS BLVD. [on some older rolls, otherwise blank]
QUEENS-FOREST HILLS
COURT ST.-BORO HALL
NO PASSENGERS
SPECIAL
ROLL #3 - ROUTE
B 6th AVENUE [added circa 1968]
WASH. HTS.-8TH AV. EXP. ["A"]
WASH. HTS.-8TH AV. LCL. ["AA"]
WASH. HTS.-6TH AV. EXP. ["B"]
WASH. HTS.-6TH AV. LCL. ["BB"]
CONCOURSE-8TH AV. EXP. ["C"]
CONCOURSE-8TH AV. LCL. ["CC"]
CONCOURSE-6TH AV. EXP. ["D"]
CONCOURSE-6TH AV. LCL. ["DD"]
QUEENS-8TH AV. EXP. ["E"]
QUEENS-8TH AV. LCL. ["EE"]
QUEENS-6TH AV. EXP. ["F"]
QUEENS-6TH AV. LCL. ["FF"]
B'KLYN-QUEENS LCL. ["GG"]
FULTON ST. LOCAL ["HH"]
SPECIAL ["S"]
The original R-10 roll signs and related hardware (i.e. the boxes) were patented and manufactured by the Hunter Illuminated Sign Company, Inc. of Flushing (Queens), New York. Here is the amazing part...I listed all of the readings here solely based upon my own memory, and not once did I have to look at any of my own R-10 roll signs from my private collection as a reference.
-William A. Padron
[The R-10 Pyramid of "Subtalk"]
Needless to say, I remember the side signs set to "Wash. Hts 207th St"; "Fulton-Lefferts Blvd" or "Mott Av. Far Rockaway" and, of course, "Wash. Hts - 8th Av. Exp".
Wash. Hts - 207th St.
Wash. Hts - 168th St.
Concourse - 205th St.
Concourse - Bedford Pk.
Jamaica - 179th St.
Queens - Forest Hills.
Court St. - Boro Hall
No Passengers
Special
The lower side destination curtain had:
Sixth Av. - 34th St.
Houston - Lafayette St.
Houston - 2nd Av.
Hudson Terminal
Fulton - Euclid Av.
Fulton - Lefferts Blvd.
Far R'k'way - Mott Av.
Rockaway Park
Aqueduct Race Track
Smith - 9th St.
B'klyn - Church Ave.
Kings Highway
Coney Island
No Passengers
Special
The side route curtains had:
A 8th Ave. Express
AA 8th Ave. Local
B 6th Ave. Express
BB 6th Ave. Local
C 8th Ave. Express
CC 8th Ave. Local
D 6th Av - Houston Express
DD 6th Ave. Local
D 6th Ave. Express
DD 6th Ave Local
E 8th Ave. Express
EE 8th Ave. Local
F 6th Av. - Houston Express
FF 6th Ave. Local
F 6th Ave. Express
FF 6th Ave. Local
GG B'klyn-Queens Local
HH Fulton St. Local
S Special
All of the above signs are included in my IND sign box.
IIRC 1689 has an E-8th Av - Houston Express sign as well as an E-8th Av - Houston front bulkhead sign.
Additional signs were spliced onto the side route curtain before the A sign in 1967 (my IND route curtain has these):
B - via 6th Ave.
EE - via Queens-Broadway
TT - West End Local
Other side route signs displayed at one time (1689 has some of these) include:
Jamaica - 169th St.
Queens - Kew Gardens
Fulton - Rockaway Ave.
Jay St. Boro Hall
B'klyn - Hoyt St. (484 has this one)
MFSE 'Almond Joy'
Er, how secure is that yard?
I haven't tried to tresspass; the pix were taken from the street.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
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David
Don't Have AIM? Download it free here at www.aim.com!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
--Originally posted on sub chat by Christopher Rivera.
A major sports celebrity with a "golden boy" image is charged with a violent felony. The governor of the most populous state in the nation is being recalled mid-term and a famous actor (with in-law ties to the Kennedy's) is running as a Republican. A transformer falls down in Grand Central closing 2 of 40+ tracks and injuring nobody.
John -- the railfan inside you is causing you to lose perspective on the real world. Happens to all of us at some point.
CG
Oh, gee alert the media...how long before we find out this guy really wasn't the boy scout he was supposed to be...
:0)
Now, talking about something going through the ceiling:
A honeymoon couple is in the Watergate Hotel in Washington. The bride is concerned "What if the place is still bugged?" The groom says "I'll look for a bug". He looks behind the drapes, behind the pictures, under the rug "AHA!" Under the rug was a disc with four screws. He gets his swiss army knife, unscrews the screws, throws them and the disc out the window. The next morning, the hotel manager asks the newlyweds "How was your room?", "How was the service?", "How was your stay at the Watergate Hotel?" The groom says, "Why are you asking me all of these questions?" The hotel manager says "Well, the room under you complained of the chandelier falling on them!
Instead of suspending this program, it should be expanded throughout New York and all other cities. Something needs to be done about the chihuahua infestation plaguing our cities.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
"I sincerely believe the bird mistook it for a rat because it was in the shrubbery,"
We urgently need to get a few of these hawks, and let them loose in the Rockefeller Center subway station.
"Well, I TOLD you to stand clear of the closing doors."
NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD
Public Meeting of August 5, 2003
(Information subject to editing)
Report of Railroad Accident
Derailment of Amtrak Auto Train
On the CSXT Railroad
Near Crescent City, Florida
April 18, 2002
NTSB/RAR-03/02
This is a synopsis from the Safety Board's report and does not include the Board's rationale for the conclusions, probable cause, and safety recommendations. Safety Board staff is currently making final revisions to the report from which the attached conclusions and safety recommendations have been extracted. The final report and pertinent safety recommendation letters will be distributed to recommendation recipients as soon as possible. The attached information is subject to further review and editing.
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
About 5:08 p.m. eastern daylight time on April 18, 2002, northbound National Railroad Passenger Corporation (Amtrak) train P052-18, the Auto Train, derailed 21 of 40 cars on CSX Transportation (CSXT) track near Crescent City, Florida. The train derailed in a left-hand curve while traveling about 56 mph. The train was carrying 413 passengers and 33 Amtrak employees. The derailment resulted in 4 fatalities, 36 serious injuries, and 106 minor injuries. The equipment and track costs associated with the accident totaled about $8.3 million. The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of the April 18, 2002, derailment of Amtrak Auto Train P052-18 near Crescent City, Florida, was a heat-induced track buckle that developed because of inadequate CSX Transportation track-surfacing operations, including misalignment of the curve, insufficient track restraint, and failure to reestablish an appropriate neutral rail temperature.
The safety issues addressed in the report are:
· Continuous welded rail temperature control;
· Continuous welded rail restraint, including ballast and rail anchors;
· Continuous welded rail maintenance procedures and standards;
· Means of end-of-train device activation;
· Amtrak passenger accountability procedures; and
· Securement of folding armchairs on Amtrak Superliner sleeper cars.
Other items discussed in the report include:
· Suitability of the Auto Train consist; and
· Crashworthiness of Superliner passenger car windows.
As a result of its investigation of this accident, the Safety Board makes safety recommendations to CSXT and Amtrak.
CONCLUSIONS
1. The Auto Train and its related equipment functioned as designed and did not cause the accident.
2. The accident was not caused by improper train handling, drug or alcohol use, or crewmember fatigue.
3. Neither the signal equipment, the train control system, nor the communications caused or contributed to the severity of the accident.
4. The overall emergency response to the accident was timely and effectively managed.
5. The track buckle that caused the derailment of the Auto Train probably originated during the passage of CSX Transportation coal train N16815 over the accident curve.
6. There was insufficient ballast on the accident curve prior to the accident to meet CSX Transportation's own standards and to ensure that the continuous welded rail was being adequately restrained.
7. Missing rail anchors and ineffective rail anchoring contributed to track instability through the accident curve.
8. The problems with the liner-tamper machine on October 9, 2001, and the re-implementation of the repaired machine well into the curve on October 11 introduced a track misalignment and caused a weak point in the curve that was susceptible to later buckling.
9. The accident curve chorded inward because there was insufficient ballast in the track at the time of the February 26, 2002, surfacing to prevent track movement as the track stabilized.
10. Because the curve was not monumented when it was surfaced on February 26, 2002, the crew resurfacing the track on March 11, 2002, did not know whether the track had moved since February 26, 2002.
11. Had the Track Disturbance Reports been submitted in a timely fashion, the roadmaster might have used them to prioritize the track adjustment work to be carried out on track disturbed during the winter, including the accident curve.
12. CSX Transportation did not provide adequate oversight to ensure that its track maintenance activities were carried out in accordance with its own standards.
13. Had the two-way end-of-train device been activated when the Auto Train's air brakes were put in emergency, the severity of the injuries resulting from the derailment might have been lessened, because the continued forward momentum of the majority of the train's cars into the stopped passenger cars would have been reduced.
14. The paper record passenger accountability system in use for long-distance, overnight, and reserved trains on the Amtrak system cannot be relied upon to provide an accurate and timely passenger manifest in case of emergency.
15. In its present unsecured configuration, the folding armchair on Amtrak's Superliner sleeper cars constitutes an unwarranted hazard.
PROBABLE CAUSE
The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of the April 18, 2002, derailment of Amtrak Auto Train P052-18 near Crescent City, Florida, was a heat-induced track buckle that developed because of inadequate CSX Transportation track-surfacing operations, including misalignment of the curve, insufficient track restraint, and failure to reestablish an appropriate neutral rail temperature.
SAFETY RECOMMENDATIONS
As a result of its investigation of the April 18, 2002, Crescent City derailment accident, the National Transportation Safety Board makes the following safety recommendations:
To the Federal Railroad Administration and the Transportation Security Administration:
1. Work together to develop and implement an accurate passenger and crew accountability system for all passenger trains (long-distance, overnight, and reserved) that will immediately provide an accurate count and identity of the people on board the train in case of emergency at any time during the trip.
To CSX Transportation, Inc.:
2 Require all track maintenance employees, including large system-wide track maintenance team members and local maintenance-of-way crew members, to use a consistent rail anchor standard that includes a requirement that rail anchors be maintained snug against ties.
3. Modify your procedures to ensure that when a curve is surfaced, it is also monumented, if local temperatures are predicted to fall below 50_ F during the post-surfacing stabilization period.
4. Develop a systematic quality control program to ensure that track-surfacing personnel consistently conduct track-surfacing operations in accordance with CSX Transportation standards.
To the National Railroad Passenger Corporation (Amtrak):
5. Install automatic two-way end-of-train emergency activation devices on all Amtrak locomotives equipped with manual devices.
6. Develop and implement an accurate passenger and crew accountability system for all Amtrak long-distance, overnight, and reserved trains that will immediately provide an accurate count of the people on board the train in case of emergency.
7. Within 1 year, install restraint systems for the unsecured folding armchairs in all your in-service Superliner sleeper cars. The restrain systems should meet the safety criteria established at 49 Code of Federal Regulations 238.233.
And of course Another Important Related Link
Also, see track 27 as it looked this evening only hours before the collapse:
That ACMU 1127 was an outbound train, so hopefully it wasn't an ACMU set that got crushed.
You know, you should really consider giving the MTA police a call, and asking them if they want to look at your pics. There's a small chance that your pics might be useful in investigating the accident. It's a long shot, but, you never know.
Brrrrah.
the one you DIDNT photograph still had (has?) it's rubber outline intact
last time we saw 9577 during ULTIMATE RIDE....
Same car, other end.
They're the original, pre-GOH color and texture. They weren't painted black like most of the others.
Secondly, this reminds me, when was the last time there was a BMT B-Type Standards Fantrip? I haven't seen or heard of them in a while. The D-types get out alot, and the AMUE/SMEE trains have been getting attention recently. With the centennial approaching, I wonder if these cars will be used for fantrips and/or nostalgia trains?
BTW how old is this picture?
--Mark
What impressed me was how close the connecting times are. For instance, the first leg from the airport to the main Düsseldorf train station is a nine minute ride, and the time between the scheduled arrival and the departure of the next train I will be taking is seven minutes. These are not local shuttles either. The train from the airport is an ICE finishing a six hour run in Düsseldorf. The second train is another ICE which had started an hour earlier. After a two hour ride on this train there is a fifteen minute wait in Mannheim for a third ICE which started 5 ½ hours earlier in Dresden. After 39 minutes on that train I wait 17 minutes for a Regional Express train to take me the last leg of my journey.
Can anyone imagine Amtrak running every day with such tight scheduling? And BTW, there are seven scheduled trips from the Düsseldorf airport to my destination (all with four or five trains) between 9:52 A.M. and 2:08 P.M. This is the way passenger rail should run.
Tom
Can anyone imagine Amtrak running every day with such tight scheduling?
Can anyone imagine Congress putting $20 Billion into the railroad infrastructure like the German Parliament did last year…? That’s in one year alone. Instead, Congress dumps a higher amount than that into the nation’s highways yet again.
Federal moneys spent on the highway are pay with funds paid in to the Highway Trust funds from user fees and fuel taxes. Unlike European countries The United States Government does not use user fees and fuel taxes to pay for non transportation related government services.
John
Sure. But they do not have to share the track with 24 BNSF coal trains running in single track territory.
Elias
Is there any pasenger equipment outside of America that you don't think are death traps? And please don't start whinging about rail weight again!
Actually, yes, especially because of the vandalidsm and constant trespass that ROW here is subjected to.
Well, those were not the issues being discussed. Simply making HSTs heavier without proper engineering doesn’t help matters.
Europe doesn't have those problems to the extent we do
Think again.
Of course, better-protected ROWs are a good help, but trespass and vandalism still exist.
and Europe doesn't have the litigation problems we do
That is because people now have less and less human rights in Europe now. However, the prevalence of excessive frivolous litigation is the largest problem in this country—but tort reform is a subject for another thread…
Ever since the ICE I had their driving wheels replaced with single-disk as opposed to rim/tire, they are not such “death-traps.” As for the Acela Express, we shall see when (not if) its first accident occurs…
Those DB trains will probably run ON TIME...something Amtrak seems not to be able to do except on the Pacific Surfliner.
(The Southwest Chief arriving LA last Sunday morning came through Fullerton ONLY four hours late.....and left four and a half hours late.
Multiply the three together, and you get a grand total of...
[fanfare]
42,588 different combinations!
Now here's where it gets a bit complex. Here comes Mr. Math.
There are two sets of side signs on each car, and one end sign.
39×42×26×39×42×26×29 =
(39×42×26)2×29=
(29)(42588)2=
Each car would have...
[humongous fanfare]
52,598,394,576 different combinations for its seven rollsigns!
Wow! almost 52.6 billion different combinations! Even I was amazed by that!
How do you operate a train? You won't find anyone here who will give you that answer on question. That information has to be kept "classified".
To slow down for a station you push the controller all of the way forward, and that takes the power off of the motors, your train is now coasting. Then you pull back on the brake handle to give your brake pipe about a twenty pound reduction in pressure. That sets the brakes a little bit to slow you down. Push the brake handle forward a bit to close the brake valve. Then if you need more brake, to repeat that proceedure again.
If you pull the brake handle all the way back, or if you let go of the controller you will put your train in BIE (Brakes in Emergency) The same thing will happen if you run a red light, or anger the wheel detectors. If this happens you are in big heap of doo doo. And you will have to piss in a cup.
If you don't work the brakes correctly, and you piddle away all of your air without a sufficient reduction in pipe pressure to put your train into Emergency, then you will have no brakes at all, and you will run into the train in front of you, and you will be in really deep doo doo, but they won't have to bother with the piss cup, because they will be peeling your body parts off of the opposite bulkhead.
Anyway, wyou won't have to bother with all of that, because the arnines were taken out of service decades ago and the new trains work differently.
Ain't that right Selkirk!?
: ) Elias
You didn't DARE try something like that with Arnines, 32's or redboids - your CONDUCTOR might stop before the exit automatic, but YOU won't. Heh.
As the plane landed and was coming to a stop at Ronald Reagan, a lone voice came over the loudspeaker: "Whoa, big fella. WHOA!"
Instead, we're stuck with the Local 100 motto. "First you SAY it, then you DO it." :(
After a few hours, I see no reason why I could not learn some of the finer points of subway operation. Why not? It is not a commercial aircraft.
Seriously, What gives with these MVM's basically saying "No quiero dinero" (or, to be more specific, "efectivo") when the booth is closed?
Could be any number of reasons. They should have something that automatically dials a central phone number to report the problem.
Robert
Robert
And this is one of the many reasons why NYCT raised the fare to $2 per standard trip. People should not support these scum and thieves that rip off the system to the tune of thousands of dollars a day. The people should be buying the cards from legimate sources and the money goes directly to NYCT. But people know a good thing they see one and pay only $1 to go home and not $2, without knowing the long-term consequences of the current fare structure being raised, again.
They were runnign video a few nights ago when pataki vetoed the booth closing bill showing station agents selling tookens
Peace,
ANDEE
WOW, that had to be almost 20 years ago.
Peace,
ANDEE
Vandals or TWu union official's
Easiy solution, add CCTV cameras and arrest the vandals.
The more likely senario is the machine is full. Most people prefer the MVM's ovet eh booth. During the day they split the load. The MTA needs to maintance the machines more
And the vandals know how long it will take before police will arrive and be gone by then.
They can vandalize the booth too.
"And the vandals know how long it will take before police will arrive and be gone by then"
To make such a system work, tight intergration of MTA CCTV security monitors and the NYPD is needed.
All this increased security and it still costs less then the outdated S/A sitting in a tooken booth with little relevant to do
;^) Elias
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PLENTY
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Only if you surrender the single ride ticket at the bus farebox. You have to tell the operator that you need the paper transfer for the second bus. He sure did not look at the back of the ticket that listed the restrictions.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
#3523, 3542, 3543, 3559, 377X, 3924, 3925, 4050
The first 6 were last seen on the E, the last was seen on the A (although it may be back on the C by now).
David
Separately, reports indicate that New York City will experience a drastic reduction in spending on everything except pensions, employee health insurance, Medicaid and debt service that will persist for years if not indefinately. The same is almost certainly true of NYCT.
Sounds like the perfect political victory:
o The Republicans run up their debts.
o The unions get fat pensions.
o The "reform" Democrats get ever greater funding for "their" non-profits via Medicaid.
o The elderly get whatever services Medicaid actually provide.
o Those who profit move to Florida.
They did it to us again, and those who follow the board know I said so as it happened. None of this is any surprise to anyone who can count.
Signal is currently experiencing a severe personnel shortage.
According to data collected by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, only 50 percent of all private sector employees have any retirement plan provided by their employers, and almost all of those under age 50 have defined contribution (401K) plans not defined benefit (regular pension) plans. During the recession, many employers have stopped contributing to the 401K plans. So half of all private sector workers, the ones who pay your bills, have nothing other than social security. In theory, those in my generation will be able to retire under social security at age 67. In practice, social security will go bust, with consequences yet to be determined.
In the mid-1960s, when the stock market was roaring, Mayor Lindsay granted pensions that in effect paid public employees one year to not work for every year they worked. These were the rich, Tier I pensions, and it was claimed that the stock market would pay for it all. When the bubble burst, these rich pensions had to be paid for with devasting service cuts, tax increase, lower wages for future employees, and less generous pensions for future employees -- those in Tier IV. This was a big victory for public employees, who moved to the suburbs, retired to Florida and left the city in ruins. Today's public employees and city residents are still paying for this. But the one thing they didn't get was an inflation adjustment, so by 1999 the public employee pension burden on New Yorkers had fallen to the national average.
Then with the stock market roaring again in 2000, they did the same thing, granting a big inflation adjustment ex post facto to those Tier 1 employees, and eliminating employee pension contributions FOR THOSE WITH 10 YEARS SENIORITY ONLY! The amount of time people have to work was cut to just 25 years, with perhaps 25 years of life expectance after that. The city, state and TA also reduced their contribution to the pension plans, saying it wasn't needed, and used the money to reward Pataki and Giuliani's pals. All this was again described as "free."
Well guess what. Tax increases. Service cuts. Fare increases. No wage increases. And next? A Tier V. Screw the new people and move away. It's the pensions, the debts, and Medicaid. For the City of New York, pensions are projected to rise to 30 percent of payroll.
(Signal is currently experiencing a severe personnel shortage.)
That's just the beginning. Just remember, the winners are those who are cashing in and moving away. Anyone who can count knew it at the time, but they did it anyway.
They stopped contributing to pension plans, recording the savings as "earnings." The "earnings" led to further stock price increases, allowing them to exercise their underpriced stock options and walk away with a whole lot of dough. Not the pension plans are way underwater, which is leading to the admitting of lower earnings and losses, which is pushing down stock prices, which is making pensions underfunded, which is leading to lower stock prices.
The CEO types have learned from public employee unions. Now they don't want stock options, they want mega-pensions. Why? If they are found guilty and go bankrupt, the courts can go after the money the grabbed by "watering the stock." Pensions, in contrast, are generally kept.
Do you think retirement age should be made higher?
Ignoring the TA's [many] problems, is IS a "public-benefit corporation" of NY state. It's employees serve 7.7 million people a day, getting them to and from work. After 25 years in the hole, a person doesn't deserve to live above the poverty level?
So are you saying that since TA employees are some of the few workers who still HAVE pensions AT ALL that it is somehow unfair? These are not desk jobs, and the TA has no stock options [not that anyone would buy in anyway!]
In a national sense, as life expectancies increase, it is inevitable that retirement age will have to go higher, or the standard of living for those who work will have to fall hugely. Retiring at 55 is one thing when the average life expectancy is 65, another when it is 80. You have one year of work for one year of being paid without work. That implies that half the work those working are doing is going to someone else who does nothing. This is the big ugly that none of the politicians want to talk about. Unless you are one of the fortunate few, be forewarned.
(There are individual exceptions of course, but 55 years of age is a little bit old for the average guy to be down on the roadbed dodging trains, the third rail, and myriad dimly lit tripping hazards.)
For tough, physical jobs like that, it is reasonable for people to expect to stop doing them when their bodies start to wear out. And, if that is to be their primary career, it is reasonable for such workers to expect to earn a pension at such a job. The issue is when the pension pays. Most people who retire young move onto other, less physcially taxing jobs. They get paid twice, becomming far better off in "retirement" than when employed. That is unfair to those who do not have such deals. So what isn't supportable isn't earning a pension by age 55. It is stopping work entirely, and having it pay, for so many many years.
(After 25 years in the hole, a person doesn't deserve to live above the poverty level? So are you saying that since TA employees are some of the few workers who still HAVE pensions AT ALL that it is somehow unfair?)
Everything is relative, and to me everyone is worth the same -- including my children and those who will come after. The question is how much should those who are less well off, and those in the future, be sacrificed to pay for them. This doesn't just mean those other than TA workers. This means future TA workers. Remember, there are already four tiers in the pension plan, and it would not surprise me if the "politically correct" result is a Tier V screwing future employees, perhaps with two wage levels to boot.
Add that to the fact that Social Security is already planned to not allow my generation to retire before age 67 after the deal to "save" it in 1982, and after having spent all that and borrowed heavily on top of it it will have to be "saved" again, and you get the point.
To pay for the pension enhancement of 2000, services will be cut and wages will fall relative to inflation, as after the previous pension deal in the 1960s. That's already in the City and NYCT budget, has already started to happen, and thus is a fact.
It is estimated that for those my age to get the Social Security and Medicare they are now promised, payroll taxes will have to rise to 40 percent. What will happen we will see, but those who are on the losing end of this (or who care about those who are, such as their children's diminished future) have every reason to complain.
Those who are shocked, shocked at where Social Security stands 20 years from now will be as guity of self-deception as those who are shocked, shocked that New York's pension funds are broke today.
http://home.nyc.gov/html/omb/pdf/fp7_03.pdf
The TA may be better off than this, because the big damage is in Tier I and Tier II, and NYCT doesn't have as many Tier I and Tier IIs still out there. But the recent proposal the legislature passed to allow TA workers to retire after just 20 years of work at age 50 would make it worse. It is allegedy funded by higher employee contributions, but only based on very favorable assumptions, and if those assumptions don't come true you know who is on the hook. Remember, the 2000 pension enhancement was sold as "free."
Nice to have strong elected representation.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I am guessing by your sentence construction and the questions themselves that you are probably a child, perhaps 11 years old or so.
Regardless of your age you should understand that railfans have certain responibilities.
The main one is:
Respect the system that you are railfanning and obey the rules of that system.
When you ask questions here, don't start asking questions where you intend to start violating those rules (or even give the impression of violating those rules).
"does anybody where all nyct subway scrap yards and d u think they would let me take the roll signs if there still in it"
First of all - you are talking potential trespassing here. If the TA won't let any of us get the surplus signs (and many SubTalkers here either work for the TA or have connections) what makes you think they would let you have them.
The TA wants people to buy them from through MTA website (and hopefully the Transit Museum when it opens).
Those of us here will do what we can to answer your questions and help you out BUT please don't go overboard with the questions, type properly and be respectful.
Remember, some of us have been railfanning the NYC Subway system for a long time. We take this hobby very seriously and you should too.
I see you are trying, but you can do better for yourself.
Peace,
ANDEE
[NOTE: I don't do this, I'm just showing you that people will not take you seriously and that you would be mocked if this persists. BTW, no need to start 3 new threads on the same topic keep it on one thread to save on bandwith and space; this makes it easier to read you know.]
That's no excuse.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Jimmy
Maybe there is a "scrap yard" somewhere. I don't know where.
I had a postcard showing some IRT white cars on a track in northern Staten Island. The back said they were going to be scrapped. Maybe they would have went over the rail bridge next to the Goethals Bridge to Jersey or further out.
They're not polluting the ocean - they're enhancing the ambiance for our aquatic friends!!!!!!!!!!!
The facility is being rebuilt, new car barn, new trackage.
The project is slated to start this year.
The yard will still be operational during construction.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
1) 75-Foot long cars meant fewer cars for the same length train, which translated into fewer cars purcahsed, and fewer cars to maintain. This was supposed to save money.
2) The longer cars had a higher capacity, since there was less wasted space (i.e., the space between the cars).
The MTA really blew it however, because:
1) The longer called for expensive modifactions to the subway infrastructure (such as the sharp curves on the BMT lines) which cancelled the cost savings).
2) The longer cars had the same number of passenger doors, which slowed down loading and unloading
3) Large fleets were ordered utilizing untested technology, which made the cars (especially the R-44s) a maintenance nightmare
4) The fancy electronics, which would function on the hi-tech Second Avenue Subway, were never used, as the automated control systdem was never installed anywhere on the subway.
5) The R-44s were built with shoddy design and construction.
In early 1980, R-46 usage was cut from betwen 6am and 10pm to weekday rush hours only because of additional "new types" of cracks not seen in the previous 3 years. Eventually I'll get to the news articles discussing lawsuits, etc. (Yes, I started looking at the 1980s now but I have a long way to go before that installment is ready for posting).
--Mark
It was a worthwhile effort, but St. Louis Car and Foundry should have done more extensive testing.
The trucks under both car classes nowadays are standard BMT-IND trucks.
David
So were the R-11s! And they (too) were JUNKED before that Lion was tamed!
Elias
The R-44s and R-46s OTOH were regular production cars.
They were both designed for the Second Avenue Subway, and both will be long scrapped before that line is ever built.
: ) Elias
Interesting, since the BMT had a crippling car shortage until the R16's were delivered. I guess the city was still in "screw the BMT mode" after WWII because their answer for that shortage was to "lend" the BMT some tired, dirty R1's.
But the money dried up as soon as the tax cut party took over in 1952 (that general from WWII) ... funny how whenever there's that tax cut party in DC, the subways go straight to hell EVERY time. :-\
Having drivers who use the Triboro Bridges and Tunnels is much fairer than having residents of Iowa or Wyoming contibuting to our subways.
By the way, New Yorkers pay nearly the lowest per capita federal tax of any state because we have so much state income tax to deduct from our federal tax returns.
New Yorkers pay more taxes, per capita, into the federal system than Iowans do.
"By the way, New Yorkers pay nearly the lowest per capita federal tax of any state because we have so much state income tax to deduct from our federal tax returns."
A misleading statistic. New Yorkers pay, overall more money into the federal system than virtually any other state. Somebody from Iowa or other midwestern states collects $1.17-1.36, depending on the state, in federal tax ddollars' worth of services and benefits for every dollar of tax paid. New Yorkers get less than $1 back. The state income tax doesn't make that much of a difference.
So I don't mind Iowans paying a little to help New York with subway service. New Yorkers pay plenty for farm subsidies to help Iowa.
Yup. You can't EAT subway cars.
Gotta have Wheat and Corn and Cows if you want to eat.
Of course if the farmer wants to buy a tractor, he has to buy it from some factory in some city.
And if the tractor makers wants to raise capital, he's gotta come to Wall Street.
I guess it all kinda works together, or did you really whant to start raising your own wheat and cows in manhattan?
: ) Elias
Which is why the notion that Iowans' taxes shouldn't pay for subway cars is ludicrous.
Yup.
ND gets back more fed money than it pays too. But then we got more congress critters per capita than you do too!
: ) Elias
That's simply not true. Federal funding for any construction project during that era had to have the blessing of Robert Moses, and he made sure that it went to his pet road/bridge projects. If you want to see where potential federal funding for the SAS went, drive down the Cross-Bronx expressway tomorrow.
Whatever his other transgressions may have been, Moses did not destroy the adjoining neighborhoods when he built the Cross-Bronx Expressway. Most of the neighborhoods were already declining when construction began. At worst, the Expressway may have sped up a process that was pretty much inevitable.
No, what it did was to foreclose on options which would have prevented some of that decay.
But that is old news. The Bronx has made a remarkable comeback.
However, one thing's for sure: while many other parts of the city are gentrifying, I don't see any luxury apartment buildings going up alongside the CBE today. Whatever effect the CBE had when it was built, the effect it has today is clear.
That's the point I was trying to make with my post:
"While I agree, the Cross-Bronx did kill the neighborhood.......I don't know if we can blame the Cross-Bronx for all of the Bronx's problems."
I don't believe there's much luxury construction anywhere in the Bronx, not just in areas close to the CBE.
Luxury housing in the Bronx is mostly single family homes.
Co-operative housing, yes, single family housing, yes, duplex housing, yes. Something that poiticians can try to control rents on... NOT IN THIS LIFETIME!
Elias
Are they big buildings or smaller ones?
Elias
The resale value of any house here is much less than what it costs to build it.
In other words, you can build it, but then you gotta live in it.
Elias
I gleefully await the day when these "vertical holding pens" get demolished and replaced with real "housing". Other large cities have already begun this process, but the NYC housing market cannot yet afford to replace existing housing.
Yes, when I lived in Brooklyn in the Late 70s the neighborhood was gentrifying... A person could aford to buy a brownstone and refurbish it and make it back into a one family dwelling. Of curse, each such renovation removed three apartments from the housing stock of the neghiborhood. It really could swing the ethnic mix of a community rather quickly.
Elias
I suspect that it will rebound too. Right now other areas, areas burnt to the ground back in the 70s were easier and cheaper to fix up. Sooner or later, that property will be the cheapes around, and will become ripe for rebuilding CBE or no CBE.
Elias
But there are other relevant criteria -- some of them far more relevant.
--Mark
Yes, and I wonder why I can't install one of those miniature railways there. You know, that gauge where you can ride on the tops of the cars. Live steamers, etc. It would go all through the jungle there, and even go under the boardwalk and skirt the edge of the beach, through the sand, for a while. I would install working flashing lights and bells to protect the grade crossings, since there isn't enough vehicular and pedestrian traffic to warrant gates. I would have at least two stations, one by the back and one by the subway, and maybe two more, one each at the east and west edges of the route. And I would charge a nickel to ride it.
Well, that, or build a big house there.
Should have read:
I would have at least two stations, one by the beach and one by the subway
Clickable Before and After:
You can recognize one building in the foreground that survived the destruction of a neighborhood.
Just most of it (OK, enough, oy)
:0)
Caro actually heaps quite a bit of praise on Moses in the early chapters. His thesis is that the thirst for power can generate a dangerous approach to the noblest of intentions. That's not a bias; it's simply the conclusion Caro has reached and has decided to impress on his readers. Every author has a point to make.
Anyone approaching the question with an open mind leaves room for both Caro and those who disagree with him. You know who is very biased? Those who summarily brush aside the most comprehensive book on the subject.
Read the book. Read it critically. Agree or disagree in the end, but the book raises important issues that can't be ignored in a discussion of the subject.
Maybe the best way to put it is that Caro saw people as a means to an end-his ends. Jeffrey Rosen seems to think that Robert Caro is biased against Robert Moses. My reading is that Caro was disappointed in Moses, a man who had the ability to do so much with his talents for the city and state but his accumulation of power corrupted him-his cronies should demonstrate that. Moses like LBJ-they could have been great but for all their power and mastery of it, they grew out of touch. At least that is my reading.
And those neighborhoods consisted mostly on 1 and 2 family homes.
I can tell you didn't live there - in fact even today, most of the Bronx NEVER went to hell in a handbasket. It remained QUITE a good place to live - even today. And what HAD gone to hell is coming back. All over. I lived in all five boroughs for a spell, but I always came back HOME.
The Bronx was NEVER as bad as it was portrayed ... sure you needed to be semi-fluent in Spanish to get along with strangers to your street, as well as a little Hindi, Russian, FRENCH, and other languages ... but the "bombed out" image of the Bronx was GREATLY overrated. Compare the "Hub" to Brownsville ... compare 174th Street to Fort Greene. Compare Simpson and Intervale to Ocean Hill. Brooklyn was in FAR worse shape at the time. FAR worse. And like the Bronx, it's coming back too.
I'm not going to play a race card here, but the Bronx was no worse off than its sister borough. If you want to compare boroughs and skid row, QUEENS has apparently earned that lately and it's JUST as unfair, unrealistic and racist. Fact is, the Bronx was, and throughout always WAS a great place to live - trees, NICE people, and aside from a few SMALL crime-ridden areas here and there, even safer than MANHATTAN to live in. Seriously.
Sure the areas you described survived - they had vigilantes with baseball bats in station wagons. JUST like Riverdale did. Just like BENSONHURST did. But where the jamokes DIDN'T rule, most of the Bronx survived as well ... mostly intact too. It REALLY wasn't anywhere NEAR as bad as it was portrayed ... certainly no worse than Brooklyn, probably better so ... no offense intended at all, but the rumors of Bronx=death are GREATLY feigned. But telling folks around here that I grew up in the Bronx has stopped MANY a bar brawl, especially after a demo of street fighting skills. Maybe that rumor's a GOOD thang. :)
Prior to yer big one, dubya bubya eye eye, the BRONX was seen as NASSAU ... BEYOND suburbandom ... after the "Great war" the Bronx was UPSTATE ... and with all the apartments built along the IRISH Rapid Transit (IRT) renting for only a few dollars more than dumps on Remsen street, people MOVED. Until CoOp CHITTY was built, the Concourse and the streets nearby (like Valentine Ave as one example) were ENRICHED by the "upscale movers" who moved in. Several of the major "luxury apartments" of the "roaring 20's" in Norwood were BUILT by "Legs Diamond" and others and QUITE upscale. Living *ON* the Concourse was gelt, a veritable mitzvah and many did. UNTIL CO-OP City, which Moses ALSO had a hand in (last time WE'LL listen to some stupid burning BUSH) all was well with the Bronx ... it was a aliteral melting pot where people wanted "Manhattan living" without "Manhattan prices" ... that's why the Bronx was always "UPTOWN" and Manhattan was always nothing more than "DOWNTOWN" ... The Bronx, as it was settled, literally became Manhattan extended with the same street grids (until they lost count) and grew as an EXTENSION of Manhattan ...
Dunno if anyone CARES about Bronx history, but it really IS a wonderful place, always was ... it was CITY LIFE (and getting SHOT on my own damned street by a moron from Staten Island) that caused me to move upstate ... but the Bronx? Man, that was HOME ... and a REALLY nifty place to live ... *IF* you had some balls and coul deal with surprises. Most folks were afraid of hispanics and "people of color." Hell, we were ALL from the Bronx ... given our "image" ain't NOTHING gonna be bigger than THAT. Heh.
But don't dis my home ... MOST of us actually worked for a living. If the CITY didn't kill every upstart business simply for the joy of it ( I ran 12 different businesses I started, and the city fined every single ONE of them into bankruptcy over pure BS) ... moved upstate where you're held responsible only for ACTUAL damage you do - I cool. :)
Heh, remember: "UPTOWN IT'S ALEXANDERS"?
Peace,
ANDEE
Lit up at night, Fordham and Concourse, those damned NEONS shining on the got-damm TRACKS! I've had a medical condition involving that place since I was THREE. Mommy, grabbing me tight, 10 AM, Saturday ... Sam Kinnison AGGGGGGGGGH!!!
You think I chit? :)
As Kool-D said, most of A Bronx Tale was filmed in Queens, masqueradeing as the Belmont section of the Bronx.
Peace,
ANDEE
BTW: The opening scene was filmed with Freeman St/IRT station in the background.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sure was, Fred, IIRC that scene was shot in Pelham Bay by the CONRAIL/NY&NH&HARTFORD/PENN CENTRAL/AMTRAK tracks. The RRs were in a state of "flux" at the time, if you recall.
Peace,
ANDEE
I grew up two blocks away from Alexander's and it seems that every time my mother went in there for something,t he cops were hauling out someone who was shoplifting.
The Paula Pizza place on 161 Street is still there, and still serves the same thin, oily pizza I loved so much as a kid. The only store that I remember dying was the Grand Union. The drugdstore survived. I hope a new supermarket showed up at some point.
I visited more recently, and liked a lot of what I saw.
I think it's that message, and other related messages, that most strongly fueled "white flight" -- more than any specific highway.
That has to be the single most ridiculous thing I've heard you say, and that's saying a lot.
It's still a stupid reason.
not stupid, just nostalgic
Mott Avenue, E 143rd Street, 238th Street, there are more names that are currently "preserved" by the MTA, many of them should be left alone, especially 238 since it is popular
oh and speaking of nostalgia
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Posted By American Pig:
I, on the other hand think that the numberization is good. More streets that have previous names for me to know and use. I think of that all the time when I pass the corner of Chatham Street and New Bowery, Robinson Street and College Place, or Fair Street and Great Queen Street among other places
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And you talk about my Nostalgia.........
Absolutely nothing. Parkchester may have been a secondary designation to distinguish this stop from 177th Street stations on two other lines.
What we now call West Farms Square/East Tremont Avenue on the lower WPR used be called 177th Street, even though East 177th Street was several blocks southeast, across the Bronx River. (There was a time in the eighties when it was called "Boston Road-East Tremont Avenue", but the Boston Road designation was dropped in favor of West Farms Square- which isn't a square at all, just a very confusing nine-way intersection.
The late 3rd Avenue el cosigned ITS Tremont Avenue station as 177th Street, just as both Dyckman Street and Bedford Park Boulevard have been cosigned as 200th Street- even though neither artery was ever officially CALLED 200th Street at any time.
Another poster in this thread very astutely alluded to Morrison-Soundview Avenues. Before 1946 when the Bronx River Parkway was constructed into the Bronx, Soundview Avenue, which traveled diagonally NW-SE, terminated at Westchester and Morrison Avenues, immediately west of where Westchester crosses the parkway. That's why old subway maps only refer to Soundview, the predominate street. Soundview Avenue now ends a block south at Watson and Metcalf Avenues, immediately east of where Watson crosses the parkway- with Morrison and Metcalf acting as respectively the parkway's western and eastern service roads south from Westchester Avenue. Hence the Morrison-Soundview designation.
There may be a couple of other instances of the subway system making adjustments to accomodate the arrival of a limited access highway in their vicinity. Supposedly the 3rd Avenue and Culver els had to be raised slightly to pass over the Cross Bronx Expressway and Belt Parkway respectively. In both cases the streets over which the els ran went UNDER the highways rather than over- as opposed to 31st Street, Broadway, Westchester, Jerome and Roosevelt Avenues, all of which cross highways while carrying els on top of them.
The entire Briarwood/Van Wyck complex, including the long passageway to Queens Boulevard, looks to be the same 1937 vintage as the line itself. There doesn't appear to be anything new added to accomodate the 1952 conversion from Boulevard to Expressway. Impressive, considering the entrance on the northeast side of Queens Boulevard rests on top of the overpass of the entrance ramp between the expressway and Main Street- which also didn't exist when the line was built. Of course, there's still original IND tile referring to an exit to 85th Avenue, which is nowhere to be found in that area. The only reference to Main Street is on nineties-vintage TA signs.
The southern entrance to the Fort Hamilton Parkway F station is in a playground under a partial interchange built in the wake of the Prospect Expressway going through in 1957(?). Before this, supposedly Prospect AVENUE was the northern spoke of an intersection of which Fort Ham was the western spoke, and Ocean Parkway was the southern and eastern spokes. Some say that stores and apartment buildings stood at the site of the southern entrance, which is now a mass of ramps and overpasses (that represents the unrealized conversion of both Ocean and Fort Hamilton Parkways into limited access highways, but that's another story!) Either way, the entrance, is a very fifties-looking brick structure instead of a typical 1930s IND staircase.
Where 31st Street and the Astoria el crosses the sunken Triboro Bridge approach, there used to be a 25th Avenue (cosigned with Astoria Boulevard on old subway maps). The long overpass outside fare control to Hoyt Avenue North that runs the length of the station between platform and street level may have been added in conjunction with the 1936 construction of the bridge. What purpose it would serve is not clear; maybe so people exiting the subway wouldn't have to walk across the very busy Hoyt Avenues North and South. (That's pretty much a Kamikaze mission these days!) Either way, it looks like it was tacked on after 1917.
I believe that both Fort Hamilton Parkway and Prospect Avenue ran into Park Circle, or the area immediately west, before the highway. What I wonder is were there other entrances that disappeared under the road?
To me the strangest highway-station interface is between the Queens Boulevard Line and the Jackie Robinson. An entrance apparently once opened onto the highway.
Back in the day of the family car, before the family fleet.
Tremont Avenue at Boston Road was once part of E 177th Street
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The late 3rd Avenue el cosigned ITS Tremont Avenue station as 177th Street
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Tremont Avenue from the Grand Concourse to near Devoe Avenue was a part of the old 177th Street
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just as both Dyckman Street and Bedford Park Boulevard have been cosigned as 200th Street- even though neither artery was ever officially CALLED 200th Street at any time.
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Half right, although Dyckman Street was never officially 200th Street Bedford Park Boulevard WAS officially 200th Street for a while, though usage of the "200th Street" number survived much longer than the official street did. Traces of 200th Street remain today, the Botanical Gardens Address [200th Street & Southern Boulevard] and one store near Jerome(same side as (4) entrance, but across the street) has an E 200 ST adress on the front. Then again everyone still used 6th Avenue when it was "unofficial" so you can't blame them.
Also 210th Street was later called Gun Hill Road-210th Street on the (8) line, Bronx River Parkway construction did damage on another station and street as well
If the IND second system were built there would have been another E 177th Street station, at Throg's Neck near St Raymond's Cemetery 177th Street & Lafayette Avenue(even maps still use 177th)
In 1971 the republican governor of Massachusetts canceled all highway construction within 128. The republican administration in Washington allowed Massachusetts to use federal highway funds to expand and improve the MBTA system. New York built the CBX instead of the SAS because of decisions made by local officials not because of who was in Washington.
Late Night next week:
Q shuttle bus runs between Atlantic Ave and Parkside Ave
FAS replaced by another set of shuttle buses.
Unusual that a local station is the one end of a G.O.’ shuttle bus in effect and this is the first time you had to go to Parkside Ave to take the train there. Most times, the shuttle bus would run between Atlantic and Prospect Park or PP to Kings Highway or Brighton Beach (last May, some nights had no Q service below Prospect Park, you had to take the bus all the way to Brighton beach.)
The .pdf will come out tomorrow on the MTA website and I will post both of them when it comes up.
The B49 on Ocean Avenue runs very frequently during the day, but not at all at night. They should just close the whole Brighton Line and run a B49 special all the way to Atlantic and Flatbush, with frequent service, the whole time.
In fact, maybe that's the way all major maintenance should be scheduled. A whole week or two of entire line shutdowns overnight and on weekends, with all the work done on a fast pace from station painting to platform edge to track work, and bus service to take its place.
Considering that TWO sets of shuttle buses are being used, it's crazy. From the A at Franklin to Church Ave, you now have to take two buses and the train.
The B49 on Ocean Avenue runs very frequently during the day, but not at all at night. They should just close the whole Brighton Line and run a B49 special all the way to Atlantic and Flatbush, with frequent service, the whole time.
So you are telling customers at 7th Ave to walk to Bergen and catch the IRT since the B49 will not be able to service the 7th Ave station. They don;t like using the S/B side because it can be scary.
In fact, maybe that's the way all major maintenance should be scheduled. A whole week or two of entire line shutdowns overnight and on weekends, with all the work done on a fast pace from station painting to platform edge to track work, and bus service to take its place.
The media will be all over this and how can 5,000 buses handle over 2 million weekend subway customers? You cannot pull buses off exisiting routes and for the Lexington Ave line, you need 300-400 buses in Manhattan alone
I didn't say weekdays, just overnights and, perhaps, weekends.
Remember, the TA buses are all out on the road weekdays. Many are idle overnight and on weekends. And during weekdays, bus service is horribly slow due to the traffic. Not so in the middle of the night -- the buses could move almost as fast as trains, but there aren't any.
Whenever I've been on a shuttle bus, it's been miserable. If I have to get on a bus, I'd rather do it once and get where I'm going.
So, if we use the MTA's same grammatical logic -- that you get off the train at Pacific and Atlantic is really the first station at which the shuttle bus arrives, would this not also mean that going in the other direction (toward Manhattan) one would get off the train and onto the shuttle bus at Church Avenue, and the first stop of the shuttle bus is Parkside? These guys really need to take some lessons in communications' skills.
Of course the MTA's inability to properly communicate with its customers is nothing new. In fact, if I remember correctly, we just had a thread about that last week.
Sorry for any confusion I have created.
That would make the Franklin Shuttle look like a good connecting service!
On the train itself, I'm sure the C/R will announce Pacific, not Atlantic. The station complex should have paper signs pointing the way to the Q, and everything past the IRT platforms should be taped off, but the temporary signage usually is pretty poor in practice.
Maybe they should rename the whole complex one thing, thus negating the whole problem. Just like every part of the station that stops at Times Square is Times Square, and every part of the station that stops at Grand Central is Grand Central.
Rename Stillwell Avenue to "Coney Island Terminal."
Rename Atlantic, Pacific, etc. "Brooklyn Central": use the current names for the plaforms ie. this train is being diverted to the Pacific Street platform at Brooklyn Central Station.
Continue to shift the name of the 3 stations in East New York to "Broadway Junction."
Etc.
The current MSG is a cylinder. Madison Cube Garden really is a cube.
Ralph Kramden of the Honeymooners lived on Chauncey Street in Brooklyn! (Jackie Gleason that is)
The name of the station has a lot of character and everytime I see the name of the station it brings back memories of many years ago when Brooklyn was a great city to live and work in.
Keep Chauncey Street....Chauncey....
I take incident to that.
I think Brooklyn is still a great place to live and work in. Even Bushwick, with its extremely troubled past and reputation, is making a comeback with gentrification.
Most notably W4th.
Peace,
ANDEE
I thought it did, briefly, when first built.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Explained it's ENTRY\EXIT Turnstile. Not entrance only or exit only.
It slices & dices either direction. >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
Ralph Kramden a/k/a Jackie Gleason must be spinning in his grave.
That would give us Rockaway Avenue on the J/Z, Rockaway Avenue on the 3, Rockaway Avenue on the C and late night A, Rockaway Boulevard on the A, Far Rockaway on the A, Rockaway Park on the rush hour A, and Rockaway Parkway on the L.
Enough Rockaways for you?
Native American? Oh, you must mean someone who was born in the U.S.A. And we call that "a beach" or "a desert". Nothing against the Rockaway Tribe, mind you. But how is it that the "correct" crowd can't bear to call themselves "Native Americans"? I mean, every other citizen of every other nation in the known universe feel comfortable describing themselves as "Native (substitute country of birth). Well, I ain't going for it. I'm a native boy, plain and simple.
Well, what can I do about it? It's a standard phrase. Hell, I should be able to say "I'm a gay native American" and mean I'm a happy citizen of the United States of America. Hell with it. I yam what I yam...
Chauncey Street station should be kept thus, unless and until Chauncey Street is renamed "Jackie Gleason Street".
If they try to change the name, we should all stand up and tell the blockheads that they, instead of Alice, will "GO TO THE MOON" !
The rollsigns never included Worth Street, however, and I don't think the conductors ever used it in announcements either. The name withered away from lack of use.
I don't know when the maps switched.
How about Flatbush Ave Terminal added to the current names, being the LIRR serves the station?
Jimmy
Lafayette (C) and Fulton (G) are closer.
IINM to terminate at 59th NB would be a triple reverse move.
I'd prefer to see Q trains simply take over N service south of Pacific, but that's not how it's usually done.
It does seem a bit silly to terminate the Q train at Pacific and the N train at 36th. It can only be about 5 minutes at most between the two stations on the express, which is probably less than the time to do the relay and hang around at terminals for both trains.
If Stillwell weren't out, there could be a very interesting Q train: 57/7 to Parkside via Bway Exp, Bridge, De Kalb by-pass, 4th Av Exp, Sea Beach, and Brighton Lcl.
NB, they simply run into the NB express track (or the NB local track if the NB R is running express) and dump. Then they change ends and wrong-rail back out to the Sea Beach. There's a very unusual homeball at the switch to the middle track; I'll try to get a picture the next time I'm there.
There are even holding lights at 8th Avenue, and they get a workout during this GO.
Ouch. So the easiest way to get TO a Sea Beach station when they're terminating at 59th would be via the West End Line.
8.5x11, standard letter size paper (at least here in the U.S.), much of it recycled GO's.
I hope the FAS bus is extended to Parkside.
This isn't the first time that a local station is the terminus of a shuttle bus. Briarwood-Van Wyck is the terminus of an occasional one-way shuttle bus.
The L shuttle bus to Hewes St is another example, Marcy Ave cannot be used because the E/B side is closed for you-know what.
Simple, go to any station on my Brighton Line and see the posters for yourself.
Coming up: One of those posters makes it to the DUH? category. Stay tuned, waiting for the .pdf to show you how NYCT screwed up for the 5,237th time.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
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MTA New York City Transit
Service Alert
Posted on:8/7/03 10:01:53 AM
Due to switch problems at World Trade Center, downtown trains are running express between 59th Street-Columbus Circle and Canal Street until further notice.
Selected trains are running express between 42nd Street/8th Avenue and Canal Street, then continuing into Brooklyn via the line, terminating at Euclid Avenue.
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I was on a sb B and we were delayed between 59-CC and 7 Av. Once we got to 47-50 Sts, the C/R announced transfers to the F and V, except that the train on the local track was an OOS V train. We sat at 47-50 Sts for a while, and then the OOS V pulled out. Meanwhile I saw nb 6 Av local and exp service running. And at 7 Av I heard announcements about the C (which were pretty garbled) but nothing about 6 Av service. Then we made it to 42 St-Bryant Park where were sat again for a while. Finally we pulled in to 34 St-Herald Sq, where there was an OOS F train on the local track. The platform was crowded and there were some platform C/R's helping people. All this time I never heard any announcement as to what the problem was. The C/R on the B jut kept saying there was train traffic ahead and that it was an unavoidable delay. What was I on, an R-142??? Anyhow, BMT to the rescue. I took an N for the rest of my journey south. Hopefully someone here knows what exactly was going on. I'd be interested in knowing, since my commute doubled today, from 30 mins to almost an hour.
Posted on:8/7/03 10:14:02 AM
Due to switch problems at World Trade Center, E trains are running via the V line between West 4th Street and 2nd Avenue.
V train service has been suspended.
A , C and F train service is running normally.
Who are you, Jersey Mike? :)
I am glad you don't live here in DC. What do you call the station on the Green Line between Shaw and Columbia Heights? How about between White Flint and Medical Center on the Red Line (bonus for pronunciation)?
Well in England, Grosvenor would be said Groves'ner. Is it pronounced the same in DC?
GROS-ven-or
The only other explanation is he is a space alien and learned our language entirely from reading only the sarcastic epistles from Unca Selkirk on Subtalk. [giggle] :)
Reeeeed Liiiiine train tooooooooooooo Gleeenmont!
Thuuu next staaashun............Tennnleytown........Aaaaaamerican........Yooooooooniversity!
Yeah, I did some phonetic spellings but you get the idea.
My GroSvenor operator doesn't announce "Red Line Grosvenor" when the doors are open though he used to. He says "Take your personals and newspapers" as opposed to personal belongings and calls the station by its official name, Grosvenor-Srathmore.
I don't have to the MTA(and the city council) does all of the work for me!
http://mta.info/nyct/service/fline.htm
Should have been Briarwood-Van Wyck Blvd I forgot the Blvd
technically they could have kept Van Wyck Blvd for the Van Wyck Expressways service roads, they did for Bruckner Blvd(Bruckner Expressway)
NYC is so inconsistant, the Grand Central Parkway has Astoria Blvd as it's service roads, while the Henry Hudson Parkway blocks out Riverdale Avenue for several blocks
now on to your questions
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What do you call the station on the Green Line between Shaw and Columbia Heights
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U Street-African-American Civil War Memorial-Cardozo station
that is longer than West Farms Square-E Tremont Avenue(177th Street)
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How about between White Flint and Medical Center on the Red Line (bonus for pronunciation)?
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Grosvenor-Strathmore
This is U Street....African-American Civil War Memorial...Cardozo or something like that (though I think it would be just U Street...Cardozo)
Peace,
ANDEE
On the other hand they could be sending the E to 2nd Av after it leaves the upper level at W4.
The way they have it phrased could go either way (at least when we analyze it).
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
If that's the case, would'nt you think the service advisory would say: E train is running on the 6th Avenue line fron 5th Avenue to 2nd Avenue?
Also you know what they say about ASSUME. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
We are talking about the NYCTA here. Haven't you been reading the postings about the misleading GO signs? So it is possible that someone could have forgotten.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Not until the entire set of buses on the N6 all break down at once at 5 PM today.
The two people in the booth had no information whatsoever, they said it was due to "congestion."
I don't know why it takes so long, but it does.
Also, use proper sentance structure, like what you have been taught in school.
You need a separate, preferably grade separated right of way through the Downtown, with stations.
If by your handle you are from the Capital District, that's what I'd suggest in place of those commuter rail pipe dreams. Lay out a series of busways from Albany to Saratoga to Troy to Schenectady. You have all kinds of limited access ROWs for cars, none for transit. East-West you might want to make Washington Ave bus only, and build underpasses to allow major streets to go past it. Other streets would dead end at Washington. There are lots of paralell streets for the cars.
So, do you know about the company called CDTA?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Do you anything about the history of CDTA, in particular the old routes, and color schemes?
Nothing about the past, only the present
Started a CDTA chatroom somewhere else and I'll stop by.
And if you have a small city, one BRT route into your Downtown could serve many bus routes. Once that was possible with rail -- when you had trolleys on the streets, you could build a subway for them to run into. Not now.
The Captial District has been trying to organize a commuter rail line, but it always falls apart in infighting. Why? Because the region has mutiple modes, but a single commuter rail line could only serve a single set of destinations. The latest attempt fell apart, I believe, over whether Troy or Schenectady would be connected to Albany and Saratoga.
With BRT, they could probably afford to connect everything. Buses could run on local streets picking up passengers, get on the busways and run express.
The key to this system would be expandiblity, first to LRT, then to a form of heavy rail subway (if the city ever can justify it), this means no sharp curves that a 75 foot or so car wouldn't be able to make, no tight clearance, etc. I wouldn't think that it'd be such a great idea to place the rails in at this point, since in Seattle the rails which were placed 10 years ago have to be replaced. Perhaps when built the tunnel should have low platforms, the drivers expected to come up to the platform. When it is decided that LRT would be built, then the it would be possible to create an elevated line down the median of a nearby freeway, with as much 45+mph running as possible, then make as great a use of private ROW out to the end of the line as possible.
At that point, with Busses and an LRT line or two using the tunnel, it would probably be time to build a line at some 90 degrees to the original system, as some sort of 'crosstown line.' After the other line is running at least a full complement of bus lines, then, should ridership require, an upgrade to the existing LRT line to something similar to a Heavy Rail system. This would require the final breaking off of the bus and LRT systems from the tunnel, they would all become collectors for the heavy rail system, POP payment or free transfers between busses, LRT and subways would make this possible.
Just my two cents.
Before resding your post, I had never thought about LR and buses using the same ROW. Basically, I'm sayin if we've got a LR goin down its own ROW, say the median of a road. Why not let a bus access it as well? There's a nice compromise. The bus would use it for only small portions of the LR route.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Turd Words -- Definition of Troll
I checked Bus-talk from 8/6/07 at 13:53 to 8/7/07 at 13:58. In that 24 hour period there were 145 posts and the little foamer was responsible for 41 of them....Wait till he realizes there is a 50 post per 24 hour limit set by DP
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Incidentally - is that 50 posts on each board or between the two?
And it's a limit over any 24-hour period, as I discovered one morning shortly after midnight.
It's midnight to midnight for Sea Beach Fred and his California compatriots.
In the context of this board I agree with you. By and large, even though it's never commented on, this is a pretty literate group here. But those kids...they are instant messaging like crazy. Usually with multiple "buddies" at the same time. So that's why they use the truncated words. It's also a function of their youth, laziness and non-familiarity with all the rules of good grammer. As a social phenomena I thinks it's pretty interesting. Still, it is jarring to have it pop up on this usually verbose board.
I wouldn't call it a dialect but maybe it's similar to how morse code messages are constructed. Or to keep this on topic...remember those ads on the trains:
I u cn rd ths u to cn gt a gd jb.
Uh huh.
Uh huh.
Could be worse. A local authority in England, Birmingham City Council, put up a sign a couple of years back reading "Sutton Coldfield Grammer School for Girls". My, did everyone laugh at the Education Department!
"Uh huh."
All right, all right. After I posted that I thought to myself, should I have said "unfamilarity"? And I screwed up on spelling of grammAr. You got me. Don't rub it in. Hey, I was on the kids side anyway.
You seem to be new here, and you use proper grammar, so I'll gladly cut you some slack...... but you obviously did not read the entire thread that you just replied to. Furthermore you must not have read all of cdta's posts over the last few days. Please spend some time doing that before you starting criticizing the forum police for policing our forum.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
To us oldies but goodies, this bad grammar, etc is hard on the eyes as well as the nerves. This kind of behavior will chase good people from the boards or activate the killfiles and the kid will never get responses to his questions or any respect for any facts he might post.
Of course is he really 11 y/o? He knew to spell the bus mfg as Flxible and abbreviated Gen Motors as gmc. Would an 11 y/o really know that?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
What are you talking about? V Train left this board the same way Pork: The Other White Meat left this board.
Good point. I don't recall seeing Pigs of Royal Island here for a while either. I wonder what happened to him.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Yes, and a number of other things:
1) Jack Arthur - Sun May 16 16:43:37 1999 - Wed Aug 4 01:25:53 1999
2) Jack Arthur aka School Bus Hater - Thu Jul 22 00:11:27 1999 - Fri Jul 30 18:58:37 1999
3) Jack Arthur says Put it on a RTS - Fri Jul 30 21:40:27 1999 - Wed Aug 4 01:24:27 1999
4) Eugenius D. Train aka JAMAN - Sat Aug 7 18:00:03 1999
5) Eugenius D. Train - Sat Aug 7 18:01:09 1999 - Thu Dec 16 22:09:19 1999
6) Eugenius D. Train - MVM Express - Sat Aug 14 16:45:04 1999 - Sat Aug 21 15:31:58 1999
7) Eugenius D. Train - 24-hour MVM Express - Sat Aug 21 15:36:58 1999
8) Eugenius V. Train - MVM Express - Sat Aug 21 17:28:21 1999 - Mon Sep 27 18:20:51 1999
9) Eugenius V. Train - Mon Sep 27 18:41:21 1999 - Tue Sep 28 21:07:10 1999
10) Eugenius D. Train (not V.) - Wed Sep 29 16:49:32 1999 - Wed Sep 29 22:33:07 1999
11) Eugenius D. Train IS A FUNNY GUY! HO HO! - Mon Oct 25 20:55:10 1999 - Thu Oct 28 23:55:02 1999
12) Eugenius D. Train IS NO LONGER A FUNNY GUY! UH OH! - Fri Oct 29 00:10:08 1999 - Sat Oct 30 21:26:57 1999
13) RUNVS of Eugenius D. Train? - Sat Oct 30 21:41:48 1999 - Wed Nov 3 20:53:02 1999
14) Eugenius D. "Royal Island" Train - Wed Nov 3 20:57:58 1999 - Wed Nov 3 22:07:54 1999
15) Eugenius D. Train of Royal Island - Thu Nov 4 20:25:16 1999 - Fri Nov 26 16:39:05 1999
16) Eugenius D. Train @metrocard.cjb.net - Fri Nov 26 00:07:45 1999 - Wed Dec 1 01:11:38 1999
17) Beyond Reason (you know, the guy from Royal Island) - Fri Dec 17 17:41:10 1999 - Sat Dec 18 00:39:22 1999
18) Beyond Reason - Sat Dec 18 00:42:05 1999 - Mon Dec 20 03:11:00 1999
19) Defy Reason - Tue Dec 21 18:29:38 1999 - Thu Jan 20 16:53:37 2000
20) Defy Reason on SubTalk: Countdown to DOOM begins - Thu Jan 20 17:18:18 2000
21) Defy Reason on SubTalk -10 - Thu Jan 20 17:32:19 2000 - Thu Jan 20 17:34:14 2000
22) Defy Reason on SubTalk -8 - Thu Jan 20 17:43:52 2000
23) Defy Reason on SubTalk -7 - Thu Jan 20 17:48:11 2000
24) Defy Reason on SubTalk -6 - Thu Jan 20 17:51:26 2000 - Thu Jan 20 17:53:47 2000
25) Defy Reason on SubTalk -4 - Thu Jan 20 19:04:15 2000 - Thu Jan 20 19:11:01 2000
26) Defy Reason on SubTalk -2 - Thu Jan 20 19:20:03 2000
27) Defy Reason on SubTalk -1 - Thu Jan 20 19:28:19 2000
28) Defy Reason on SubTalk is no longer - Thu Jan 20 20:05:34 2000
28a) From the banks of the River Stownz ***he claims he posted a message under this handle - I can't find it***
29) A post it note - Fri Jan 21 00:05:23 2000 - Sun Jan 23 03:48:09 2000
30) A post it note in favor of the R-142 - Sun Jan 23 03:49:51 2000 - Sun Jan 23 04:12:29 2000
31) I've been a bad post it note - Sun Jan 23 04:22:18 2000 - Mon Jan 24 03:31:43 2000
32) I won't be a post-it note for long! - Mon Jan 24 03:15:46 2000 - Wed Jan 26 01:11:25 2000
33) I'm not a post-it note anymore! - Wed Jan 26 08:58:49 2000 - Thu Jan 27 09:37:31 2000
34) Humans: The Deli Best - Thu Jan 27 10:09:36 2000 - Mon Jan 31 20:49:54 2000
35) Humans: The Bombay Best - Tue Feb 1 00:03:53 2000 - Tue Feb 1 21:17:41 2000
36) Humans: The Bombay Pest - Tue Feb 1 21:24:23 2000 - Tue Feb 1 23:27:35 2000
37) Humans: The Budapest - Tue Feb 1 23:47:28 2000 - Thu Feb 3 23:06:50 2000
38) Humans II: The Prague - Fri Feb 4 17:21:59 2000 - Sat Feb 5 00:45:39 2000
39) Humans III: The Hague - Sat Feb 5 19:21:41 2000 - Sat Feb 5 23:16:38 2000
40) Humans - Amsterdam - Sun Feb 6 01:01:01 2000 - Sun Feb 6 11:48:24 2000
41) Humans of Amsterdam - Sun Feb 6 11:49:24 2000 - Sun Feb 6 15:55:28 2000
42) Humans of Columbus - Sun Feb 6 15:59:36 2000 - Mon Feb 7 23:14:29 2000
43) Humans of Hudson - Sun Feb 6 16:27:19 2000 - Wed Feb 9 00:28:06 2000
44) Humans of East - Wed Feb 9 01:17:48 2000 - Wed Feb 9 21:54:39 2000
45) Humans of Further East - Wed Feb 9 22:47:41 2000 - Fri Feb 11 01:53:59 2000
46) Humans of ROYAL ISLAND - Fri Feb 11 17:34:14 2000 - Fri Feb 11 20:34:33 2000
47) Humans of Royal Island - Fri Feb 11 20:36:20 2000 - Sat Feb 12 18:00:34 2000
48) Pigs of Royal Island - Sat Feb 12 18:04:08 2000 - Fri Sep 29 21:49:18 2000
49) Pork: The Other White Meat - Fri Sep 29 22:34:01 2000 - Sat Apr 14 09:10:25 2001
50) American Pig - Sat Apr 14 18:58:17 2001 - to date
Is 50 different handles a record?
He doesn't seem to have had a handle change for a while - I wonder if one is on the way?
I didn't even include the dates, you actually took the effort and the time to include them?
I don't count changes in capitalization to be a different name. I should also note that before passwords it was a simple matter to change one's name. Many people had "extensions to their name." As you can see, since the principal part of the name remained the same, it was easy to know who posted. In fact, it also makes it possible to search for posts by any person, which is also how I found some names that I forgot.
It also seems that you are not posting from the official list, since you omitted:
PATH Train Pig
LIAR to New York-Pig Station
A/B/C/D-Central Pig West
Notorious P.I.G.
You also omitted the two names under which I posted but never took credit for. They're in the official list though:
JOUR DE LA REVOLUTION
ALMOND JOYS GOT NUTS, MOUNDS DON'T
The first one I think had something to do with the French Republican Calendar, but I'm not sure and I can't be bothered to look now. The second one had to do with the M-4s in Philadelphia.
As for the Reason posts, I consider it the stupidest set of names I could have come up with. They really ruined my credibility at the time.
Eugenius D. Train was my favorite until I came up with the porcine names. I didn't keep it because I didn't make it up. By the time I found out it was Paul Matus' creation, it was too late.
Finally, the whole thing started because of heypaul, who had far more extensions that I did at the time starting with "Paul aka C-49 Mack Bus" and he claimed that my name changes gave me more names than he had. Until then, I had not considered them name changes. With a name-changing reputation, I went with it.
That is over. I have no intention whatsoever of changing American Pig currently, however if I find something nice I'll switch, it's become very unlikely though. In the 2+ years since I've adopted American Pig, others have changed their handles much more often. I can't keep track of how many times Trevor Logan over on BusTalk has changed his name and what those names are, nor do they follow a pattern that allows you to keep track of the changes, as you can with mine.
Well, I found a post from a few years back which said you'd had 5 so far, so I thought why not find the first and last - then I noticed there were rather more than 5!
It also seems that you are not posting from the official list,
There's an official list?
You also omitted the two names under which I posted but never took credit for. They're in the official list though:
JOUR DE LA REVOLUTION
ALMOND JOYS GOT NUTS, MOUNDS DON'T
2 more which never seem to be posted under... interesting... that's 3 names under which you've had all your messages censored!
Incidentally, what did you post under your other invisible handle, "From the banks of the River Stownz"?
The first one I think had something to do with the French Republican Calendar
The question is whether the French can count when the Millennium is ;-)
As for the Reason posts, I consider it the stupidest set of names I could have come up with. They really ruined my credibility at the time.
Making claims about reason is probably always a dumb thing as it's just fodder for cheap jibes.
That is over. I have no intention whatsoever of changing American Pig currently, however if I find something nice I'll switch, it's become very unlikely though.
Maybe I should make 57 name changes just to outdo you ;-)
I wonder how one goes about it now...
I've explained my view on extensions. In fact, I was not the first to use extensions, there were others.
2 more which never seem to be posted under... interesting... that's 3 names under which you've had all your messages censored!
No, still just the one:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=44958
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=59378
"Incidentally, what did you post under your other invisible handle, "From the banks of the River Stownz"?
Nothing controversial but nothing worthwhile either. It was about my name change, it was cryptic, there were no responses.
I wonder how one goes about it now...
One e-mails Dave.
Yes, and a number of other things:
1) Jack Arthur - Sun May 16 16:43:37 1999 - Wed Aug 4 01:25:53 1999
2) Jack Arthur aka School Bus Hater - Thu Jul 22 00:11:27 1999 - Fri Jul 30 18:58:37 1999
3) Jack Arthur says Put it on a RTS - Fri Jul 30 21:40:27 1999 - Wed Aug 4 01:24:27 1999
4) JAMAN - Wed Aug 4 01:53:41 1999 - Sat Aug 7 17:52:16 1999
5) Eugenius D. Train aka JAMAN - Sat Aug 7 18:00:03 1999
6) Eugenius D. Train - Sat Aug 7 18:01:09 1999 - Thu Dec 16 22:09:19 1999
7) Eugenius D. Train - MVM Express - Sat Aug 14 16:45:04 1999 - Sat Aug 21 15:31:58 1999
8) Eugenius D. Train - 24-hour MVM Express - Sat Aug 21 15:36:58 1999
9) Eugenius V. Train - MVM Express - Sat Aug 21 17:28:21 1999 - Mon Sep 27 18:20:51 1999
10) Eugenius V. Train - Mon Sep 27 18:41:21 1999 - Tue Sep 28 21:07:10 1999
11) Eugenius D. Train (not V.) - Wed Sep 29 16:49:32 1999 - Wed Sep 29 22:33:07 1999
12) Eugenius D. Train IS A FUNNY GUY! HO HO! - Mon Oct 25 20:55:10 1999 - Thu Oct 28 23:55:02 1999
13) Eugenius D. Train IS NO LONGER A FUNNY GUY! UH OH! - Fri Oct 29 00:10:08 1999 - Sat Oct 30 21:26:57 1999
14) RUNVS of Eugenius D. Train? - Sat Oct 30 21:41:48 1999 - Wed Nov 3 20:53:02 1999
15) Eugenius D. "Royal Island" Train - Wed Nov 3 20:57:58 1999 - Wed Nov 3 22:07:54 1999
16) Eugenius D. Train of Royal Island - Thu Nov 4 20:25:16 1999 - Fri Nov 26 16:39:05 1999
17) Eugenius D. Train @metrocard.cjb.net - Fri Nov 26 00:07:45 1999 - Wed Dec 1 01:11:38 1999
18) Beyond Reason (you know, the guy from Royal Island) - Fri Dec 17 17:41:10 1999 - Sat Dec 18 00:39:22 1999
19) Beyond Reason - Sat Dec 18 00:42:05 1999 - Mon Dec 20 03:11:00 1999
20) Defy Reason - Tue Dec 21 18:29:38 1999 - Thu Jan 20 16:53:37 2000
21) Defy Reason on SubTalk: Countdown to DOOM begins - Thu Jan 20 17:18:18 2000
22) Defy Reason on SubTalk -10 - Thu Jan 20 17:32:19 2000 - Thu Jan 20 17:34:14 2000
23) Defy Reason on SubTalk -8 - Thu Jan 20 17:43:52 2000
24) Defy Reason on SubTalk -7 - Thu Jan 20 17:48:11 2000
25) Defy Reason on SubTalk -6 - Thu Jan 20 17:51:26 2000 - Thu Jan 20 17:53:47 2000
26) Defy Reason on SubTalk -4 - Thu Jan 20 19:04:15 2000 - Thu Jan 20 19:11:01 2000
27) Defy Reason on SubTalk -2 - Thu Jan 20 19:20:03 2000
28) Defy Reason on SubTalk -1 - Thu Jan 20 19:28:19 2000
29) Defy Reason on SubTalk is no longer - Thu Jan 20 20:05:34 2000
29a) From the banks of the River Stownz ***he claims he posted a message under this handle - I can't find it***
30) A post it note - Fri Jan 21 00:05:23 2000 - Sun Jan 23 03:48:09 2000
31) A post it note in favor of the R-142 - Sun Jan 23 03:49:51 2000 - Sun Jan 23 04:12:29 2000
32) I've been a bad post it note - Sun Jan 23 04:22:18 2000 - Mon Jan 24 03:31:43 2000
33) I won't be a post-it note for long! - Mon Jan 24 03:15:46 2000 - Wed Jan 26 01:11:25 2000
34) I'm not a post-it note anymore! - Wed Jan 26 08:58:49 2000 - Thu Jan 27 09:37:31 2000
35) Humans: The Deli Best - Thu Jan 27 10:09:36 2000 - Mon Jan 31 20:49:54 2000
36) Humans: The Bombay Best - Tue Feb 1 00:03:53 2000 - Tue Feb 1 21:17:41 2000
37) Humans: The Bombay Pest - Tue Feb 1 21:24:23 2000 - Tue Feb 1 23:27:35 2000
38) Humans: The Budapest - Tue Feb 1 23:47:28 2000 - Thu Feb 3 23:06:50 2000
39) Humans II: The Prague - Fri Feb 4 17:21:59 2000 - Sat Feb 5 00:45:39 2000
40) Humans III: The Hague - Sat Feb 5 19:21:41 2000 - Sat Feb 5 23:16:38 2000
41) Humans - Amsterdam - Sun Feb 6 01:01:01 2000 - Sun Feb 6 11:48:24 2000
42) Humans of Amsterdam - Sun Feb 6 11:49:24 2000 - Sun Feb 6 15:55:28 2000
43) Humans of Columbus - Sun Feb 6 15:59:36 2000 - Mon Feb 7 23:14:29 2000
44) Humans of Hudson - Sun Feb 6 16:27:19 2000 - Wed Feb 9 00:28:06 2000
45) Humans of East - Wed Feb 9 01:17:48 2000 - Wed Feb 9 21:54:39 2000
46) Humans of Further East - Wed Feb 9 22:47:41 2000 - Fri Feb 11 01:53:59 2000
47) Humans of ROYAL ISLAND - Fri Feb 11 17:34:14 2000 - Fri Feb 11 20:34:33 2000
48) Humans of Royal Island - Fri Feb 11 20:36:20 2000 - Sat Feb 12 18:00:34 2000
49) Pigs of Royal Island - Sat Feb 12 18:04:08 2000 - Fri Sep 29 21:49:18 2000
50) Pork: The Other White Meat - Fri Sep 29 22:34:01 2000 - Sat Apr 14 09:10:25 2001
51) American Pig - Sat Apr 14 18:58:17 2001 - to date
Is 51 different handles a record?
He doesn't seem to have had a handle change for a while - I wonder if one is on the way?
Unfortunately you missed a few. Here is my list.
Chaohwa
=|:-)
=|:-(
A post it note
A post it note in favor of the R-142
A/B/C/D - Central Pig West
ALMOND JOYS GOT NUTS, MOUNDS DON'T
Defy Reason on SubTalk: Countdown to DOOM begins
Defy Reason on SubTalk -10 (and -9, etc.)
Defy Reason on SubTalk is no longer
From the banks of the river stownz
Humans of Amsterdam
Humans of Columbus
Humans of Hudson
Humans of East
Humans of Further East
Humans of Royal Island
Humans III: The Hague
Humans II: The Prague
Humans: The Budapest
Humans: The Bombay Pest
Humans: The Bombay Best
Humans: The Deli Best
I won't be a post-it note for long!
I'm not a post-it note anymore!
I've been a bad post-it note
LIAR to New York-Pig Station
PATH Train Pig
Paper is Ephemeral
NOTORIOUS P.I.G.
Beyond Reason
Defy Reason
Eugenius D. Train
Eugenius D. Train of Royal Island
Eugenius V. Train
Eugenius D. Train - MVM Express
Eugenius V. Train - MVM Express
Jack Arthur
In my first 2 months at Subtalk I was known as Mike B then PRR Mike then Mike from Nu Joisey, then Nu Joisey Mike, then Joisey Mike and finally Jersey Mike.
Jack Arthur aka School Bus Hater
What?
=|:-)
=|:-(
YES! I forgot HONEST ABE and DISHONEST ABE. That makes 58
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I think it is MDT9037-Route29 (or some combination thereof)
Also I think MDT is actually a she, I could be wrong about that though.
the handle is actually MDTroute29 9037 IIRC
:-) Andrew
I think this post leave you in little doubt as to who Pigs of Royal Island became.
I think the trivia question should be posed: can anyone name ALL of the poster formerly known as Pigs of Royal Island's former handles in chronological order? (And the obvious follow-up: is that the most handle changes for an individual ever?)
So what? I could do those things when I was 11.
Yes, I am new here. I have started scanning these boards to keep up on the issues and learn from the experts. I am far more likely to be deterred from this board by long debates over grammar and punctuation, than by one contributor's unwillingness to conform to conventional norms.
That said, this is clearly a close community whose members put a lot of energy into answering questions, no matter how naive. If CDTC is making a nuissance of himself, then you certainly have a right to criticize him.
Let's give the kid some patience and don't treat him in a unwelcome mannner. But do criticize him for the 1st grade like postings, maybe he will learn, and do simple things, like putting a capital letter on the first word of each sentence.
If I were 11 the spelling would be like in the dictionary "F-L-E-X". That's why I wonder about the age.
But if he is willing to learn both about buses and subways as well as his grammar, great......We oldies but goodies have to be able pass the torch, the love of transit, down to the next generations.
Sometimes the "next generation" scares me. But only sometimes.
David
--Mark
I told his mother about this site, but she said he hates computers. I suggested that she show him the photos here and he might start liking computers.
That was cdta! And that explains a lot, like why he doesn't know how to use an Internet forum properly.
No, he's obviously still 6 or maybe he's 7 now. I don't think he has a time machine. And for a 6 or 7 year old, he's a tad advanced in his writing skills.
He's lying. He's 6 (or 7).
BTW, I can't believe you really think I'm serious.
(and ya WONDER why Unca Dave's wasting a perfectly muggy Friday babysitting the shooting gallery?!?!)
Yeah, and in the computer personal ads I am a 30 year old Wall Street Mutual fund trader who is often mistaken for Brad Pitt. :-)
Tom
Peace,
ANDEE
#3 West End Jeff
So that's what MTA really stands for!
Peace,
ANDEE
There seems to be a period of time for anything in which the new is worse than the old, until the kinks are worked out.
Does anyone know how long the V is going to be out of service?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
At least you were lucky enough to get an F train!
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_26253.jpg
1. Why are they scrapping the redbirds they were using in garbage service?
2. You can clearly see that the straps are still installed in this car. Everything else of value seems to already be removed. So are these straps going to go down with the ship? I would like a strap, and am willing to pay $15 for one from the TMS at GCT (if they had them), and they are instead throwing them away? So frustrating... Glen, can you pleeeeease grab me a strap before they load those guys onto the barge? Thanks.
I(so)AWTP.
Jimmy
Thanks for any info.
The fixture, called a vault, held wires coming from different parts of the terminal, Metro-North spokeswoman Marjorie Anders said.
The vault, which one firefighter estimated weighed a ton, fell onto the Track 27 platform at about 9:45 p.m.
"I'm sure that someone under it would have been hurt," Anders said.
Yes Margie, you're entirely right, they would've been hurt! D'oh!
What would they do then? Try and run everything except the Harlem Line into Penn?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
2. Kings Highway to Newkirk Ave: Brighton Express N/B
3. Howard Beach to Broad Channel (only on a R38) both directions
4. Grand Central to 59th st: N/B Lex Ave express
5. Woodside to Junction Blvd: Flushing express(in partucular, the stretch from 74th st/Broadway to Junction.)
Some fastest areas I miss from the 80's since that they are no fun with the stupid timers currently:
1. 4th AVE EXPRESS, N/B from 36th st to Pacific
2. 59th st/CC to 125th st/IND The Ultimate Railfanner's dream
3. 42nd st to 14th st/Union Square (sadly, that was a good reason right there why the trains had to slow down.)
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
To simulate skip-stop service on the Second Avenue subway, a test train of R-44s was run through the 36th St / 4th Avenue station on the BMT 4th Avenue line at 50 mph on March 6th, 1974.
--Mark
The Brighton express can be MUCH FASTER if it weren't for that required stop at Newkirk Ave.
Fastest speed achieveable with an experienced, daredevil T/O,
or fastest common/average speeds reached in an area?
Oddly enough, they used to be PRR tracks a LONG LONG time ago.
I'd like to see this land cleaned up and redeveloped.
That was no man's land for many years.
Jim K.
Chicago
I know others on this board have more details, and I'll have to defer to them if anyone needs more information.
Mark
Basically the planners screwed the whole thing up. Now I am not sure a delivery loop would worked well but definately would have been better the what currently exists. Also when patco was formed they took possession of the loucust street subway and the connection with the spur was severed. Now the spur largest sources of passengers is China town and temple university's commuters to NJ. There has to be someway to make it truely useful but it will never happen. I don't suppose someone has a couple of billion lying around?
Sean@Temple
--Mark
Sean@Temple
Mark
Wow. You gotta tell me all about this stuff on Monday.
Since the facility is already there, it'd be cool if they could turn it into a terminal for SNJLRTS, assuming it could get across the bridge. If PATCO and SNJLRTS could share trackage across the bridge, the the job would be remarkably simple, just have the LRT cars switch off the PATCO tracks just after the portal, running into the terminal. Of course if there were a free transfer to PATCO, or even a small, pay transfer, it would allow people to get to other forms of transit, namely the MFL and BSS, futher down PATCO.
Trolly terminal remains as unfinished shell under Bridge Plaza.
PATCO line has unusual allignment, so as to leave room for the trolly terminal in the middle.
Mark
http://staff.philau.edu/KrasulskiM/transit/parkway.htm
Parkway-Northwest Subway-Elevated
The Report of the Transit Commissioner, 1913, briefly discusses future lines for the city and adjacent suburbs. “The proposed parkway subway under the Parkway terminates in a double-track subway loop under Vine, Eleventh, Locust, and Seventeenth Streets, with an auxiliary stud terminal under the Parkway from Seventeenth Street to Fifteenth Street, adjoining the Broad Street Station (page 96).”
A year later, according to the Annual Report Department of City Transit, 1914, the Transit Commissioner recommended a new connection for the Parkway-Northwest Subway-Elevated Line. “When the complicated and expensive construction in Broad Street along and under the City Hall is in progress, it would seem advisable to provide at the same time a connection or the subway in the Parkway which should be built in the near future. With this in view therefore, the west side of the delivery loop is being designed with four tracks so connected as to afford suitable routing accommodations for the Parkway line. This provision will involve an extra expenditure of about $1,750,000. (page 16).” With this modification, the Parkway-Northwest Subway-Elevated Line would not operate in its own delivery loop as first proposed in 1913, however would operate in the Center City Delivery Loop.
In 1914, the Transit Commissioner moved the Parkway-Northwest Subway-Elevated Line from the future proposed list to the recommended list, joining the Frankford Elevated and the Broad Street Subway. “Later when the delivery loop is ready for use, the Northwestern Subway-Elevated Line extending from the delivery loop at City Hall station, thence beneath the Parkway to a point near the Green Street entrance to the park, thence northwardly over 29th Street to Henry Avenue and thence to Roxborough, estimated to cost approximately $8,500,000 (page 2).” According to a 1914 Broad Street Subway map, the proposed stops on the Parkway-Northwest Subway Elevated, to Henry Avenue, were:
· City Hall
· 18th and Race
· 22nd and Parkway at Callowhill
· 25th and Parkway
· 29th and Girard
· 29th and Columbia
· 29th and Diamond
· 29th and Lehigh
· 30th and Allegheny at Henry Avenue
: (
Mark
The Broad Ridge Spur was to connect to the Locust St subway at 8th, where PATCO currently turns onto it. Assuming that the locust st tunnel continued out under Rittenhouse square to whatever it would have been (subway or el) in West Philly, trains would have had the option of running Broadway-Camden to West Philly, or Olney-West Philly and back.
Just too bad that the 8th Ave line didn't connect to the LSS until 1969, it would have been cool to have a subway under Locust St, or even Woodland Ave.
Obviously the Roosevelt Blvd subway is not.
“CITY HALT MUCH of SUBWAY WORK”
Government Bars Further Borrowing of Funds
CONTRACTS RECALLED
Mayor Smith sent a message and a resolution to Councils providing for the suspension of construction work on sections of subway work and the cancellation of outstanding contracts.
Cancellation of these contracts un-doubly will be costly to the city under the terms which the contractors, the Keystone State Construction Company, have named, but Director Twining, which believes they may be modified by negotiation, informed the Mayor that on the whole he believed they were “fair.”
The contracts to be canceled call for the construction of the Arch and Locust streets sections of the subway and also for construction of a sewer in Thompson street.
The resolution presented to Councils requests the return of contracts for sections of the subway in North and South Broad street. The resolution was referred to the Finance Committee.
The resolution authorized the Mayor, and the City Sollicitor and Director Twinning to adjust claims with the contractors sustained by reason of the suspension of the work. The resolution urges the balance of transit funds on hand be held to meet the obligations of contracts under City Hall and Frankford Elevated Railway.
The real reason for suspension of the work and cancellation of contracts is the fact that the city officials, after several conferences with the members of the capitol issues committee of the Federal reserve board, found further borrowing of money for subway work would not be permitted until war, so therefore the Department of City Transit has recommended that all work be stopped except that in progress on the Frankford L and on the subway section under City Hall.
http://www.whyy.org/tv12/secrets/subway.html
Mark
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
: )
Mark
When the Reading Terminal was still in operation, the Callowhill Branch veered off to the west while the four-track electrified Ninth Street Branch turned slight east and into the Spring Garden Street station, .8 miles north of RDG TERM. I think the mile post for the Callowhill branch was .2 miles. and it was part of the Reading Terminal interlocking limits controled by Race Street Tower. I remember the branch had an low interlocking home signal and it was protected by a derail IIRC.
Consulting my Reading Company Employee Timetable effective 04/28/1963, the following information is found, the branch had two main tracks and the method of operation was ABS (Automatic Block Signal. The branch ran directly west until it made a junction with the B&O north of the Art Museum at Park Junction, MP 2.4 from Reading Terminal.
There was freight service on the line and when Philadelphia was the city of small manufacturing, there were many customers.
Jim Kramer
Formally of Philadelphia
AND THEY WON.......!!!!!!!!
Well, now I have to make an effort to come to the 7 line, purely for railfanning purposes. The J "tours" were in combination with transportation (is that what the subway is for?). The L I also did specifically for railfanning purposes (and to photograph Atlantic). I'll get to the 7 next chance I get to railfan.
All R-62A (7) trains have an R-62A single at the Manhattan bound head end. Most R-62A singles still have half-width cabs and a full railfan window. Some R-62A (7) trains are made up of 11 R-62A singles, in which case the Flushing bound end will also have a full railfan window. If an R-62A doesn't have a "full railfan window," it instead has the little square.
And do all 7 trains in both directions have at least the square to look through?
Yes, see above.
It's like, a railfan peep-hole.
The cutbacks are propsed for the MTA's 2004 budget, and have not yet been approved by the MTA board. But the proposal is raising all sorts of red flags tonight among passenger advocates about safety on the subway.
N.J. Burkett reports from Jaimaca, Queens.
At a time when the subways could hardly be better come proposed budget cuts from the Transit Authority that could change that. The MTA says it's all about priorities and that safety is not at issue. But there are groups that are questioning that.
Subway workers say there are already more defective tracks and switches than they can keep up with. But the MTA is considering reassigning two dozen track workers, and by its own calculations, hundreds of defects would go unrepared. Defects that could disrupt service, and eventually cause a derailment.
Beverly Dolinsky, NYC Transit Riders Council: "I'm nervous that this is an erosion in all of the gains that we've made, since instead of repairing 600 a year, they're going to repair 300."
The MTA says that high-priority, or "red flag" defects will be repaired immediately. But others known as "yellow tags" will have to wait.
John Samuelson is president of the union's track division.
John Samuelson, TWU: "As it stands right now, the existing maintenance workforce is insufficient to correct the amount of defects that build up on a daily basis. If you take 24 workers away from that already insufficient number, there's going to be problems."
The MTA is also planning cutbacks in station maintenance, which could mean dirtier platforms or worse.
Track fires are routinely caused by litter in the rail beds. Critics say it was this kind of deferred maintenance that made the subway unbearable 30 years ago.
Beverly Dolinsky: "In the 1970s they had all these areas that were yellow and red. And they had these slow orders, and that meant the trains could operate and people were still safe, but they had to slow down to a crawl. People have had a fare increase. And they didn't expect that they were going to get a fare increase and cutbacks in service."
Late this afternoon a spokesman for the MTA insisted that the tracks would be thoroughly inspected and maintained, and that their maintenance exceeds federal standards.
This era of micromanging evet move the MTA makes is getting out of hand. Any move that results in the reduction of overall TWu membership is going to result in misleading confusing statements. These sources even when correct sound like the little boy who cried wolf.
David
The reductions in trash collection and track repair, however, look bad. I'd like to think it isn't so. But given everything else the Governor and the State Legislature have done since 1998 on a variety of topics, I'm very wary.
Damn they're reefing these cars quick, last night a 12-car reef train was reported and now it's gone and replaced with 6 "fresh new" cars ready to be reefed (signs all stripped out-sorry, didn't occur to me to write down the car #'s).
There were 3 other cars floating around loose, 2 R36WF's and 1 R33WF single, and of course 3 R127/134 work motors.
Maybe the surge of Redbirds are because R-62A's were being sent to Jamaica Yard to be washed ?
Bill "Newkirk"
By the time that was discovered, it was probably to late to rearrange everything and have the 7 lose its Redbirds first rather than last, which would have made more sense. (Perhaps the first batch of R-142's could have gone to the 3 rather than the 2 so the 7 could get its R-62A's early on. Then the 2 would have gotten either a later batch of R-142's or the R-62's from the 4, but in either case it would have kept its Redbirds until the end.)
Kazu Nitta
Kazu Nitta
For that matter, does it even HAVE a sign? Or is it just a window with "NOT IN SERVICE" painted on?
--Mark
Don't Have AIM, eh? Download it free at www.aim.com!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
-Pitkin Yard(Under apartment complex)
-137 Street Yard (Visible from 1/9 tracks)
-Concourse Yard (Under apartment complex. The Yard visible from Bedford Park BLVD is Bedford yard, not Concourse.)
-168 Street Yard (Where C trains relay
-137 Street Yard (Visible from 1/9 tracks)
That's one...
-Concourse Yard (Under apartment complex. The Yard visible from Bedford Park BLVD is Bedford yard, not Concourse.)
Concourse Yard IS visible. Jerome Yard, is not. Dunno what the hell "Bedford" Yard is, maybe the back half of Concourse (which is also visible).
-168 Street Yard (Where C trains relay)
175. That's two...
Also learn to count. By your logic this is 4, Madison would be 5th. Not that it matters, since it is only 3rd anyway...
And I do know how to count. See: 1,3,4,4,8,12,244,99,008,10. so HA!
If true, this doesn’t look good! Wasn’t the fare increase supposed to stop this?!
Tell me, what benefit would the MTA board have from cutting MTA expenditures? The MTA is a public-benefit corporation and cannot have a profit and MTA board postitions are non-salaried.
I worked this C-SPAN type gig of a state network called NY-SCAN. We got STARVED by the state even though the cable operators were paying us to DO it. Most of the money was diverted to the NYS Department of Health (agency symbol appropriately, "DOH!") ... had we been able to RETAIN some of the money we earned, the dreams of Cuomohole and Bruno to be "on camera EVERYWHERE" might have actually been fulfilled. When DOH's budget suckage of OUR money got beyond what was coming in, we was liquidated by teh powers that be.
They ain't had camera time since. :)
Bottom line though - the MTA is a CASH COW, like the Port Authority and all the other "public benefit corporations" like "Division of the Lottery" ... Looto came up short, the looting HAS begun. Elvis is *IN* the house. Heh.
Jimmy
Bad? The collapse of the transit system and other services bad? Naah. As long as the debts and pensions get paid, and New York's nursing homes are paid double the national average per resident (as reported today) with below average staffing, nothing is bad. Just ask your assemblyman.
All I can suggest is that Paturkey should bow down in prayer that we don't have RECALL in NYS ... Mike Tyson for Governor. :)
I know California has a history of electing movie idols with bigger biceps than brains (R Regan included in this list), but let’s not have that misery spread East!
Anyone who can make the trains run on time gets MY vote.
I mean really ... look at what politics attracts these days. :(
No, I know someone who lives on LI who was in jail many years ago. He still cannot vote.
Peace,
ANDEE
This does tend to keep felons out, but the Gov can pardon folks, especially political types that get "Federalized" and spend time in various Federal low-level facilities.
Dale Anderson, who served as Baltimore County Exec in the early 70's ran afoul of some Repub Federal Attorney charges and spent some time at Allenwood Federal Correctional Facilty (referred to as the "Country Club"). Sure enough, in the 80's he served a couple of terms in the General Assembly.
No way. It's either Howard Stern or J. Lo for governor. LOL
Jimmy
Easy way to get improvements on the Pelham Line. Hey, we might even get SAS that way! Vote J Lo!
David
I don't know. The idea that the pols would cut maintenance -- something that makes things better in the short run but worse in the long run -- is consistent with everything else they have done since 1998 or so. I've been waiting for something like this.
You used to have to see tokens, now you don't because of new equipment, so you need fewer token clerks -- that's a productivity gain. Despite what the straphangers say, no one will be worse off.
You consolidate local towers into master towers so you need fewer tower operators -- that, too, is a productivity gain.
You cut garbage pick up and track repairs -- that's a cut in service and a hidden budget deficit shifted to a diminished future. They didn't say that because of new equipment and better training they would cut the crews to 20 percent with the same number of defects repaired. They said they'd do half the work with half the people. That is NOT a productivity gain, unless it can be shown that because of scheduled maintenance increases there won't be any more yellow flags.
For those less rail-inclined, there will also be the Disney channel…
Exactly my attitude regarding the R1/9s. Always went out of my way to ride them to Stillwell Ave to go home. (And at the time, my home wasn't even close to Stillwell Ave :)
--Mark
Many have followed since. But I did have joy when I first rode on the CTA and in college on Broad Street and Market Street in Philadelphia.
When I got down to the station platform there were no trains. I first heard it come. When it got closer and I was able to see that B1 well, I felt like I had died and gone to Heaven. It was like being in a dream, getting in the first car. I rode all the way to Patterson then back up to Market.
That January, I met a high school girl who lived on Front near Cheltenham Ave. I did not have a car, so I took the Market Street to Broad. Broad to Fern Rock, then the XO bus. Not only did I get to date a HOT blonde high school chick, but I took the subway both ways and usually we took it on our date. Always the front window in the first car. I dated her for six months and the rides on the BSS was a great part of some great dates.
In 1981, I worked at a coop job on Two Street between Tasker and Morris. I was able to take the BSS south, but my joy rides were interrupted by a transit strike that lasted about a month.
The B1 trains were sort of like a cross between BMT Type D and R1-9's. They had different doors, but that traction motor whine was 100% their to the joy of my ears. I also liked the B2 and B3. The B2 had doors similar to the BMT standard cars except the conductor was not stationed at a door.
Riding those cars was like a second childhood. They were similar to subway cars which never made it past the sixties. Riding the BSS will always be one of the great subway events in my life and a memory I will always have.
Remember when they got up to speed they made noises like they were going 60 MPH, when actually they were only going 35-40 MPH tops.
With the front window open and the subway breeze blowing over you, well it was just a great experience. It ran through some tough neighborhoods though.
Jim K.
Formally of Philadelphia
Enjoy! I'm also going through my many rides on the BSS through my mind also.
Jim K.
Chicago
When I started riding the P&W (Norristown HighSpeedline, SEPTA Route 100) in 1972, I enjoyed riding the "new" (1933) Brill Bullet Cars because of their speed and their attractive appearance, but I loved riding the old (1926) Strafford Cars because their sound and vibrations reminded me of the old Broad Street Subway cars.
Funny, the elevated section of Market Street Line had a catwalk. In NYC there is usually none on the els.
-Spotted an r62 consist with 4 line signage heading northbound
at GUN HILL ROAD 2/5 station approximately 830 tonight...
-THINK I SAW a dark, unlit redbird consist parked in the CENTER south lot
of CCY.... emphasis on THINK I SAW.... what gave me this impression was
the two small illuminated red circular lights to the side of where
the front bulkhead glass sits... no car numbers as it was in a sea
of hippos.. (and NO im not talkin about the CCY SCHOOLCARS)
Spotted SAME Signal Dolly consist FRIDAY night in 207Yd.
on a track leading into the barn...
In case the article hasn't been posted.
Robert
We will be attempting to cover as much ground as possible by rail only with limited photo stops. There is no set itinerary as of now. Almost definate photo stops will be made at Grosvenor, Eisenhower Avenue, Huntington, Metro Center, and L'Enfant Plaza but this is subject to change. We may do the entire system but have no plans as of now to break Alan Sussman's record, set on January 14, 2001.
Please let us know if you are coming. If you let us know and your bus comes in just after the 49 I am scheduled to come in on (8:31), we will know to wait. Otherwise, we want to start ASAP so we can get as much done as we can.
If you are thinking about coming or are definitely coming and your name is not on the list below, PLEASE EMAIL ME ASAP! I want to get an idea of how many people are going. I will be heading down there this Friday, and may not be able to check my email before the trip. So let me know before Friday! If your name is on the list, we may wait (a few minutes) for you if you are late, or we may not. But if you aren't on the list and we don't know you are coming or thinking about coming then we WON'T wait for you.
This should be a fun trip, just like the Philly trip two days ago. The only costs will be your transportation to/from the meeting point, an initial subway fare before the daypass becomes valid, the cost of a daypass, and food.
If you have ANY questions at all, please email me. The more people that show up, the more fun this trip will be.
Definitely going:
Chapter 11 Choo Choo
WMATAGMOAGH
Operational Engineer II
Possibly going:
David J. Greenberger
R30
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Definitely going:
Chapter 11 Choo Choo
WMATAGMOAGH
Operational Engineer II
New Look Terrapin
Possibly going:
David J. Greenberger
R30
Definitely going:
Chapter 11 Choo Choo
WMATAGMOAGH
Operational Engineer II
New Look Terrapin
aznboy 4305
Possibly going:
David J. Greenberger
R30
Glenmont.......like in NY? PA? NJ? CT?
Help the brah.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Hasn't this been asked all of 4723847382 times in the past week?
Bah, I just remember one of you brahs blowing steam over THIS particular repeat Q.
And when it hits the fan, it is never evenly distributed. Ask anyone.
Usually for Newsday, Queens isn't even part of NYC.
--Mark
Crud on the Tracks... Pictures at 11
Woops. When I previewed this post to check the link, I clicked on the Redbird picture and noticed that the enlarged picture included some track and roadbed conditions. Perhaps they were displaying good taste by not showing the track directly. In this way, only those with a taste for articles about rats or human waste would look at the picture more carefully. I need your help. I can't enlarge the track area with my Webtv browser, so I can't examine the roadbed with the kind of intensity that I would like. If you blow the area up, is there any evidence of "you know what".
On the bright side, that's one good looking Redbird.
I can never see any actual waste, but the smell is literally like someone just took a big, wet, smelly dump right there in the stairway.
And you can still actually smell it up above on the street, near the same spot.
I mean, the smell in the bathrooms at the Port Authority Bus Terminal is something you're not likely to mistake for anything else, and that's what the Canal St platform smells like, in that spot. No doubt about it, whatsoever.
It wouldn't surprise me about Chinatown. Consider all the stores that have fish displayed outside on beds of ice. As the ice melts, it becomes fish-smelling water. At least some of that pungent water will end up in the subway.
Of course, there isn't much the city could do about this situation without have the Times go ballistic. The paper's been on a fetish about how Chinatown has been suffering so terribly from the aftereffects of 9/11, and any move to enforce sanitation standards would be viewed as kicking someone when they're down.
I was really surprised to see CERA had organized a trip through parts of the tunnel.
The best tour I ever took with New York Division of the ERA was their original exploration of Grand Central Terminal. We actually walked along the track with the steam pipes alongside us. It was the grittiest trip I've ever taken. I think the police had cleared the tunnels of all visible homeless. This trip must have been about 20 years ago. In contrast, I was on another ERA tour of Grand Central about 2 or 3 years ago, that was very sanitized and touristy.
That's putting it mildly. I'm glad we saw what we did, but there was a lot we didn't see that would have added a great deal to our understanding of how that place works. Unfortunately, from a safety standpoint (given today's litigious society) they probably couldn't take the risk, especially since there were three or four small children on the trip, at least two of whom were not being kept under control by their parents.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
--Mark
I could get the book and video from my snitch Johnny, but he's charging me now for info...
Is it available through the CERA?
Where can I find it without working up a sweat and waiting a couple of months?? Thanks... Paul
Years ago, I think I saw a video about the tunnels. Is that the same one as what's available now??
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Robert
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Robert
More to come if I am still on the L when this happens.
Robert
There will be a backup standard signal system on the Canarsie Line. If memory serves, it will be capable of supporting a four-minute headway.
David
David
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I think YOU are drunk.
And what's the deal about this supposed anti-railfan-window law? Yes, I saw a reference to it here a week or two ago, but I don't believe it. Do you have a source other than a SubTalk post?
A 8AV FULTON EXP said it. And he told it to me again on Tuesday during my tour. It might be worth searching the websites of all those FRA type governmental organizations to see if we can find it.
The J/M/Z still has plenty of room for improvement. Little has actually gotten any better (except for the neighborhoods around it). Although those little glass windows are nice, the stations are now all the same boring color, and one of the fastest express tracks in the system sits unused, and of course headways remain at 10 minutes all the time with the # of Z trains cut down to 6 (and on weekends, forget about it, it's 12 minutes much of the day). It's not as if they don't have the cars (hell run some of those spare R143's on the Z or something) they just choose not to be bothered for some reason. I would hope things will get better in the future. You would think, if they wanted to attract more riders away from the E, they would be inclined to improve service, but they aren't.
Always has been (since the BMT introduced route numbers), always will be.
Was my home line when I was growing up in Brooklyn (Neck Road station).
-- Ed Sachs
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I'm still seething over the decline on my 7, of course. What's the deal with that? Oh well, when Corona is rebuilt and all of the Redbirds are sunk, maybe we'll see light at the end of the Steinway tunnel.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
The L line is only 2 tracks, making it very seceptable to delays. There is no "reroute" as the L has no connections in Manhattan. There is just total suspension of service between 2 points whenever something happens. And stuff DOES happen. While I don't think a 3rd track is feasible, they should at least consider a track connection in Manhattan, perhaps to the 6th Avenue Line (8 Av would require a 150* turn). Then it would be the #1.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/107338p-97056c.html
"Just wait
Brooklyn: If you thought subway service was bad last weekend, think about this: In 15 years or so, the signal system on the Lexington Ave. line comes due for replacement. The project will take years and involve constant shutdowns. The Lex is the only line on the East Side, by far the most crowded in the system and likely to get more crowded once the Long Island Rail Road is extended to Grand Central. What will life be like if the Second Ave. subway hasn't been built by then?
Larry Littlefield"
Larry, Nice to see you in print but why bring up something that won't happen for at least 15 years (if at all)? People are complaining about the GO's that are happening now. They are not concerned with 2018.
That was pretty much the attitude when, in a prior letter to the editor, I said that reductions in contributions to the pension funds and the rich pension benefit handed to the public employee unions (with nothing in return) would lead to a disaster for future employees, city residents, taxpayers, the quality of life. They could get away with it for the very reason you state. Now they tell us that what we are facing is beyond their control.
Similarly, if they don't build the SAS, or at least the northern part of it, and conditions on the Lexignton Ave line become hellish when ESA is done, and worse when repairs are required, they (city and state politcians) will claim that there is nothing they can do about. Or they will blame the "useless bureaucrats at the MTA." And the Daily News will print it.
Generationally inequitable decisions by our state government has made our situation worse relative to other places. That damage is being felt now.
But even bigger generationally inequitable decisions at the federal level will cause so much damage after 2014 or so that he difference between conditions in New York and conditions elswhere will seem negligable.
So in a "relative" sense we'll be less worse off.
CTA maintains that small track fires are not that uncommon and the motorman overreacted.
Interestingly, the article claims that the 3rd rail caught on fire. I will look up in my Handbook of Chemistry and Physics to check on the temperature at which a 3rd rail might go up in flames. I'm being a comedian here, as I assume the 3rd rail itself didn't catch on fire.
3rd Rail Catches on Fire---CTA Sees No Reason to Panic
Sounds to me as if passengers were evacuating the train on their own accord, in other words the T/O didn't make the evacuation decision on his own initiative.
Even if the T/O decided to evacuate the train on his own, without more information it's wrong for anyone - including CTA management - to jump to the conclusion that the decision was wrong. Sure, most track fires may be minor. But under the circumstances, the T/O may not have been able to know much if anything about the nature of the fire. It could have been something like the fire in South Korea that led to many deaths.
Robert
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(BLANK)
(TEST)
If you're in the NY area and you're not a member of the New York Division Electric Railroaders' Assn., join. Their Bulletin (lots of back copies available) has things like sign readouts, both roll sign and electronic.
France plans to buy stake in Alstom
PARIS, France -- The French government disclosed plans Tuesday
(Aug. 5) to buy a 30 percent stake in the troubled engineering
conglomerate Alstom, a move that European Union regulators said
they would examine, according to this Associated Press report.
The government conceded it intends to rescue the maker of luxury
cruise ships and the nation's famed high-speed TGV trains from a
looming cash crisis with the share purchase which would give it
effective control of Alstom.
The company has massive interests in labor-intensive shipyards,
produces power plants and co-built the new Acela high-speed train
that links Washington and New York.
But France must first overcome stiff opposition from the European
Union, which frowns on anything that could be seen as an unfair state
subsidy and is already investigating a French government credit line
to France Telecom.
In Brussels, EU competition commissioner Mario Monti, who believes
such aid damages competition and hurts taxpayers, cast doubt on the
legality of an Alstom bailout.
He told French finance minister Francis Mer on Tuesday that he would
look "very carefully" at the full package to ensure it complies with EU
rules, said Monti's spokesman, Tilman Lueder.
But for France, an Alstom failure raises the specter of a financial and
industrial catastrophe. Alstom employs 100,000 people worldwide, a
fifth of them in France.
But reeling under a mountain of debt, off-balance sheet liabilities and
costly technical faults with some of its gas turbines, Alstom is nearing
bankruptcy.
In a statement Tuesday, the company said its board had met with
creditors to discuss a rescue package and that it had asked the Paris,
London and New York stock exchanges to suspend trading in its
shares for a second straight day.
Alstom's shares have lost about 90 percent of their value in the last
two years. It was unclear when share trading would resume.
The bailout comes at an awkward time for the French government.
Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin had been pursuing a politically
sensitive privatization program that included plans to sell off stakes
in Air France and electricity giant EdF. He now risks losing credibility.
Experts say the government will likely justify the takeover on the
grounds that, with Alstom supplying most of the super-fast trains
across Europe, a collapse of the company could destabilize the
continent's entire railway sector.
That may just be enough to persuade the Commission to give the
rescue package -- once stripped of handouts deemed excessive -- a
stamp of approval, said Frederic Louis of law firm Wilmer Cutler and
Pickering in Brussels.
"The Commission may try to extract its pound of flesh from France,"
he said. "But the Commission is highly likely to let a restructuring for
Alstom go through."
A French Finance Ministry spokesman said any financial assistance
from the government would respect EU rules.
The Finance Ministry is also eager to rescue Alstom because France's
largest banks, led by BNP Paribas and Societe Generale, are heavily
exposed to Alstom's woes. They are leading the rescue talks for as
many as 40 banks, including other French heavyweights Credit
Agricole and Credit Lyonnais.
Alstom has launched a massive job cut and asset disposal plan to
slash costs and raise cash. It plans to sell its high-voltage equipment
unit to state-owned nuclear engineering company Areva for an
estimated euro1 billion ($1.13 billion).
But Alstom had warned it would also need to reschedule its debt with
lenders and issue up to euro600 million ($681 million) in new shares
to avoid bankruptcy.
The company also needs to secure financial help to alleviate huge
off-balance sheet liabilities, hampering the company's effort to clinch
new sales.
It has also been hurt by the bankruptcy of a main cruise ship
customer and faulty gas turbines. The company has so far taken a
total of euro4 billion ($4.53 billion) in charges to cover the cost of
fixing the turbines.
The TA got a decent price on the R160s. If Alstom goes bankrupt, it could reneg on the deal and attempt to charge more, or NYCT could have to go begging to the contractors it turned down, who would already know what the bids were and have one fewer competitor.
The government of France is doing us a favor.
They certainly owe us a few.
Wouldn't the TA have required Alstom to post a surety bond once the contract was secured? Most government contracts have this requirement. TA would then require the insurer to fulfill the contract at the price agreed with Alstom. The insurer would have to get someone else to do the job and pay any excess above the price Alstom had bid.
France isn't doing anything that an insurance company wouldn't otherwise be doing.
CG
Wouldn't the TA have required Alstom to post a surety bond once the contract was secured? Most government contracts have this requirement. TA would then require the insurer to fulfill the contract at the price agreed with Alstom. The insurer would have to get someone else to do the job and pay any excess above the price Alstom had bid.
France isn't doing anything that an insurance company wouldn't otherwise be doing.
CG
As the global economy runs adrift, on the tinfoil standard headed for the ball of string, many a shakeout is coming until there's some leadership SOMEWHERE again. And Kawasaki is on very slippery ground TOO. :(
I knew about the gas turbines, but I had no idea they also made the cruise ships. Fickle business, esp. these days.
But yeah, if we weren't so busy knocking out knees together in fear, our elected felons would actually begin to say "THIS is too far." Not gonna happen THESE days ... oh look! It's a bomb! Lions, and tigers and bears. :(
Anyhoo, it's all a matter of how much gets siphoned off BEFORE the manufacturer sees a DIME. I've done gubbamint contracting - that's why I'm *IN* the financial mess I'm in ... and I just sell SOFTWARE. *Imagine* how broke I'd be if I had to pay a steel mill TOO. :)
Hey, I was as cynical as the next guy about all the lobbyists, but I thought the price was good. New York's state pols are bad enough as it is. Let's not blame them for stuff they didn't do.
The GERMANS were more respected around the rest of the planet than we are at the moment. Sorry for the impure thought, I gotta go turn my sorry butt in now ... but this one really IS a scandal. And like everything ELSE "Honest Al for only 3%" has touched, a smoking crater with pawprints on it was left behind. Sorry, I actually *LIKE* the French. If you're a MENSCH, they treat you with great respect. Come off like an AOL Instant Messager and well ... heh. It's fun to watch. Much like the catfights I used to enjoy on Christopher Street years ago. The BEST entertainment is free. :)
If the reports are right about losses from underbidding for contracts, and the R160 is one of those contracts, then perhaps D'Amato bribed ALSTOM.
Paturkey and Bruno are mere handpuppets. NO JOKE. (and yes, I sincerely extend my DEEPEST sympathies to Joe Bruno, who announced today that he has prostate cancer) But New York's republicans are even MORE corrupt than the ones in DeeCee (a DAMNED hard act to follow) ... let's see if Alstom survives. My bet is that they WON'T ... the EU doesn't approve of "bailouts" (in TRUE republican sentiment) ... Alstom's TOAST.
But Alstom got suckered in ... as did Bombardier, Kawasaki and all the OTHER "successful bidders" ALL of which had "Honest Al" at their side. Don't believe me, LOOK IT UP! Responsible journalists WOULD of course, but ... wait - isn't that KOBY BRYANT!?!?!??! WOOHOO! :(
So, answer me this, Uncle Kevin. Do you think the French would be willing to open the books on the guys who haven't done them any favors lately? It's no Teapot Dome, but it could take a big nick out of some ambitious Republicans and make them look at least as bad as Gray Davis, and unlike his enemies, they're untouchable. Even if you don't like them, they have NUMBERS.
But yes, what's going on with Alstom is a European UNION fight to the death. The rules very explicitly prohibit "government bailouts" and that is what France is trying to do here to save Alstom. In the end, I strongly suspect that Alstom will be cut loose in the interest of "unity" ... things have changed GREATLY around the world as the neoconservative vision has been rammed down everybody's throats. While France desperately wants to save a home industry and all those jobs, maybe railcars SHOULD be made in Afghanistan or Kuala Lampur where the exchange rates are more favorable to the cartels.
I don't wanna come off sounding like a Commie here - but entropy *IS* an end game and we're accelerating the HELL out of it for no benefit to ANYONE, least of all third world countries. Is having ALL the marbles when enlightened people could crank out all the marbles they'd ever want SO important? Apparently so.
Will the French RELEASE the information? They're going to HAVE to. Will the American MEDIA *carry* the story. Nope. Not with Kobe on the loose. Ever notice that when the Main Street track debris hits the fan, some sports star drives around in a White Bronco, or an actor with the intellectual capacity of SpongeBob is all over the news because he MIGHT run? Or that some mother in Fuddpucker, Alabama drowns her kids and that's good for 3 weeks of diversion?
I *was* a journalist, a TV anchor and a member of RTNDA as a New Director years ago. I studied journalism. Ain't NO such thing. What Americans know, they know from TALK RADIO. Now SHADDUP you whiny arsed pinko commie homo! :)
"The revolution will NOT be televised."
And what ABOUT those 2900 people? Phuggem?
My point was that Europe and France in particular have a clue about the losses that war can bring, especially to PEOPLE ... we STILL haven't gotten it. So who'we gonna bomb NEXT? :(
We liked that sort of thing in Watergate, and then we got sick of it, but everything has its thirty-year cycle. Top Gun's little people played by the Frogs and the media keep its hands off it when the only competition is Liberia? I don't think so.
Could be worse, bro ... you could be a conductor on the LAKE SHORE LINE on an EASTBOUND. Heh. Now genuflect and give me them prayers. Heh. You *KNOW* it could be verse ... with all them mergers and acquisitions out there, airlines dropping like flies, the flies saying "fook THIS" and headed off to Anchorage that things could be FAR worse with the gray running mutt ... to whit:
What happens when you crossbreed a...
Malamute x Pointer = Moot Point, favorites of lawyers but ...
it doesn't seem to matter.
Bull Terrier x Shitzu = Bullshitz, a gregarious but unreliable
breed.
Pointer x Setter = Poinsetter, a traditional Christmas pet.
Kerry Blue Terrier x Skye Terrier = Blue Skye, a dog for
visionaries.
Great Pyrenees x Dachshund = Pyradachs, a puzzling breed.
Pekingese x Lhasa Apso = Peekasso, an abstract dog.
Irish Water Spaniel x English Springer Spaniel = Irish
Springer, a dog Fresh and clean as a whistle.
Labrador Retriever x Curly Coated Retriever = Lab Coat
Retriever, the choice of research scientists.
Newfoundland x Basset Hound = Newfound Asset Hound, a dog for
financial advisors.
Terrier x Bulldog = Terribull, a dog that makes awful
mistakes.
Bloodhound x Labrador = Blabador, a dog that barks
incessantly.
Collie x Malamute = Commute, a dog that travels to work.
Deerhound x Terrier = Derriere, a dog that's true to the end.
Now drop and slap me five. :)
The 1 and 9 run pure R62A's ONLY.
As for the others:
2 - R142
3 - R62A, soon to be all R62, also had some rare R142 sightings
5 - R142
6 - R142a
:-) Andrew
The R62's left on the 4 line will be transferred to the 3 line, while the remaining R62's on the 3 line will go to your favorite #7 line. This process should be complete as soon as the Option order for the R142S cars start rolling in later this year.
cdta, do us all a favor and go repeat grammar school. Your lack of proper spelling and grammar skills is aggravating us. At lease put some effort to making proper sentences. If so, we can communicate better, ok?
:-) Andrew
:-) Andrew
:-) Andrew
"Visit" is the operative word. They're thankfully not moving to either line en masse.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
The cars that currently run on the Bronx IRT lines are eithher R142 or R142A subway cars
And it isn't the Museum itself but rather the TA surplus equipment sales:
Check here:
http://www.mta.info/nyct/materiel/collectsales/memsales_new1.htm
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4152&item=2186036732
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=543055
(the above written in "cdta style" intentionally, I promise not to do it again...for a while)
Translation:
That's right. So do you know all the roll sign readings, except for SPECIAL or TEST, and if not, how can I find out this information.
How much of the rest of the site have you looked at yet?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
They won't let you take one at all.
The TA got a decent price on the R160s. If Alstom goes bankrupt, it could reneg on the deal and attempt to charge more, or NYCT could have to go begging to the contractors it turned down, who would already know what the bids were and have one fewer competitor.
The government of France is doing us a favor.
They certainly owe us a few.
Wouldn't the TA have required Alstom to post a surety bond once the contract was secured? Most government contracts have this requirement. TA would then require the insurer to fulfill the contract at the price agreed with Alstom. The insurer would have to get someone else to do the job and pay any excess above the price Alstom had bid.
France isn't doing anything that an insurance company wouldn't otherwise be doing.
CG
Wouldn't the TA have required Alstom to post a surety bond once the contract was secured? Most government contracts have this requirement. TA would then require the insurer to fulfill the contract at the price agreed with Alstom. The insurer would have to get someone else to do the job and pay any excess above the price Alstom had bid.
France isn't doing anything that an insurance company wouldn't otherwise be doing.
CG
or the side signs?
I'm sure somebody else here knows the readings of the old bulkhead sings on the R32's, and the R62A's are easy (only I can't remember which is R62 and which is R62A).
You can see a lot of what you want at The Joe Korner
Take Dave's advice and mosey around this and other sites. A lot of people don't want to post long lists of things when someone is going to ask the same question a month later.
If you follow those guidelines, you will get much better answers to you questions.
As the global economy runs adrift, on the tinfoil standard headed for the ball of string, many a shakeout is coming until there's some leadership SOMEWHERE again. And Kawasaki is on very slippery ground TOO. :(
I knew about the gas turbines, but I had no idea they also made the cruise ships. Fickle business, esp. these days.
Click on the links below to read more. And please don't ask too many questions in one day, write or scribble them down if you have any questions and take 3 to 4 of them for each day that you can post. This way you don't overburden yourself and you can make some nice friends who want to help you. I had the same love for trains when I was you age (11) and now I am 34. Funny, that's a prototype for the first stainless steel subway car, the R11/34 car back in 1948. HAHA!
Click on the links below
all current and retired subway cars
historical subway maps
The Brown, Green and Purple seem to max out at eight TPH or so, and not necessisarily because of the contraint in the loop. They also run short trains. I'm not sure about the Orange, as I didn't ride it.
Anyway, you could be talking about 32 to 36 tph on two tracks. I think the real problem is the crossover junction in the NW corner of the loop.
8am rush hour for all (fudged slightly for Purple)
Brown Line: 19 trains, presumably all 6-car
Orange Line: 10 trains, presumably all 8-car
Green Line Harlem/Lake: 8 trains, presumably all 8-car
Green Line Ashland/63 or East 63rd: 8 trains, presumably all 8-car
Purple Line: 6 trains, presumably all 6-car
TOTAL: 51 trains, 358 cars
Purple and Brown lines have 6-car maximum lengths. Orange and Green can accomodate 8-car trains, and I think currently run 8-car trains during rush hour although have been known to sneak in 6-car trains in the past. According to the CTA, the average weekday records about 60,000 riders on the elevated Loop (this doesn't include the subways), or about 1/8th of all "L" riders on weekdays.
Just for the trivia, the Red Line subway handles about 45,000 riders per weekday, and the Blue Line subway about 25,000 riders per weekday. So about 130,000 people ride CTA trains to the Loop each workday. Metra and CTA busses also bring in a lot of people, but I can't find reliable numbers for them specifically to the Loop on weekdays for direct comparison.
Hello Frankie!
350kb Green Line photo
Now, for special events, which go on through out the summer, there will be four or six car trains run on the Green Line.
You're correct about the Green Line being able to accomodate 8-car trains, except East 63rd.
Brown Line (Ravenswood) and Purple Line (Evanston)are currently restricted to 6 cars maximum due to platform lenegth on each line.
Jim K.
Chicago
-- Ed Sachs
Green Line to Oak Park uses the outside tracks over Wabash and Lake.
Green Line to 63rd, etc, uses the inside tracks over Lake and Wabash.
Orange Line uses inside tracks clockwise from the SE corner around.
Brown Line uses the outside tracks counter-clockwise from the NW corner around.
Purple Line uses the inside tracks clockwise from the NW corner around.
Weekdays at 8am hour, Washington Subway Stations:
Red Line (State Street): 12 northbound, 19 southbound
Blue Line (Dearborn Street): 8 northbound, 15 southbound
I presume they're all usually eight-car trains during rush, but others may have better information.
You all may find this CTA page helpful in this discussion:
http://www.transitchicago.com/maps/rail/rail.html
The only problem with your outcome that I can see is that the Green Line trains run only 3 or 4 eight car trains during the evening rush hour towards Harlem/Lake.
Now remember that Tower 18 sees the trains of the Brown and the Purple Line two times in the course of a loop trip, once going in, and once going out.
Go back to your calculator and add 'um up.
Jim K.
Chicago
There are, of course, a lot of ways to count the trains, I chose to just count how many different trains transited the actual Loop structure.
However, if you really want to compute the capacity of the Loop 'L', wouldn't it make sense to count all the movements through Tower 18, or for that matter, Tower 12?
What I'm getting at is if you use Tower 12, you would double the amount of movements for the Brown, Orange, and Purple in order to get the exact number of movements per hour. Keep in mind each time a train enters into the interlocking at Tower 12 or 18, it takes a certain amount of time for the train to clear the interlocking so that the next movement can be lined up, and in turn, clear the interlocking.
So, what I'm saying is each movement at the two Towers dictates how many trains can use the Loop in a certain time period. That is one of the reasons the CTA is lobbying for money to extend platform length for the Ravenswood trains (Brown).
In no uncertain terms did I mean to fault your calculation, but wanted to encourage further thought about the original question - which was about capacity I believe.
One part of the question that I didn't see comment on was the signal system. As everyone familiar with Chicago knows the Loop is strictly CAB signal territory. Does that cut down on the capacity of the Loop? Well, yes it does because CAB signals do not allow the motor person to use their judgment on advancing his or her train forward to close in on a train ahead.
I'm told in the pre CAB signal days, trains could be operated to close in right behind its leader. Would I suggest that today? My answer would be no.
Again, I know it took you some time to put together your analysis. Thank you for sharing it with everyone. I think out-of-towners who have never been to Chicago have a better understanding of the Loop operation.
Jim K.
Edgewater
Apples and bananas. The Chicago El carries far fewer people than MTA does. MTA's Queens Blvd. trunk carries 900,000 all by itself.
The folly was not consistently replacing El with subway. Tearing down the Manhattan Els was a necessary part of improving the environment and quality of life on the island, provided that subway service followed. The East Side's failure to provide a second Av subway was a problem; and one could argue the abandoned Bronx Els could have been rehabbed or replaced by subway as well.
But there is much folly in spending too much time romanticizing ancient history. It's time wasted that could be put to better use.
The curves are almost as bad as the model train set curves people have at home. Model trains negotiate wicked curves very rarely found on real railroads.
The MBTA's Red Line has a bad curve just outside Harvard Square station. The train grinds and moans and squeals its way through it at 2 mph.
In February, 1977, the first four cars of a Dan Ryan-Lake train destined for Harlem/Lake left the elevated structure at Lake/Wabash curve.
Many of you know the story, but I'll quickly recount it here. The motorman stopped his train at Randolph/Wabash to do station work. A Ravenswood train was stopped with the last car just about on the straight part of Lake Street.
For reasons later made public, the motorman was high and over rode the CAB signal and took his train around the curve located there. When the DR-Lake train hit the Ravenswood the train stayed on the tracks, but it was later discovered the motorman applied power against the standing Ravenswood train. The force of the cars trying to move forward made the train "buckle" and the first two cars (Pullmans 1964) went down on the street. The third and four cars (Budds 1970) didn't hit the street completely, but were hanging off the structure. The third car might have, but I'm not sure without checking the book again.
Of course the motorman was fired. Eleven people in the train or on the street lost their lives. It was a sad day in the history of the 'L'.
It less than five years after the ICRR wreck at 27th Street that killed 45 people. That is another story.
Jim K.
Chicago
It is something you get used to. If you suggested to most Chicagoans today that there was a plan to tear down the 'L', I think there would be a big uproar.
On the near North Side, at many places the structure is only a few feet to residential housing. Resident on their back porch could almost literally reach out and touch a train going by.
In Chicago, we have very little underground operation in proportion to the total system. I think the State Street (Red) and Milwaukee-Dearborn-Congress (Blue) subways are both about 5 miles in length. The O'Hare branch (Blue) also has a short two station subway section. Other than that, the right-of-way is all either above the street, in median, on embankment, or on the surface.
I myself like to see where I'm going.
Jim K.
Chicago
But if there were a coherent plan to replace an El branch with subway as part of a community redevelopment plan (developers being consulted, new business initiatives etc.), then I could see a lot of Chicago people supporting it.
Of note is that First Av would have trouble hosting a subway due to problems with water tables and the river. A rail line there would have to be an El.
I disagree.
It's time wasted that could be put to better use.
If you have something more important to do, then of course. But if you have free time and/or time with your thoughts (and anyone who doesn't have some such time runs the risk of losing their mind), then there's nothing wrong with discussing the mistakes of the past, and what you would've done differently, or even better, what could be done today, and maybe you'd even come up with something feasible enough to be submitted in a proposal. The only way to "waste" time is by sitting there not doing anything.
So the Loop, including elevated and subway portions, has six tracks (two elevated and two each for State and Dearborn subways). It processes 105 trains during the 8am rush hour, which is 17.5 trains per track per hour.
The Belmont station, which is four miles north of the Loop, and serves the Red, Brown and Purple lines, has four tracks. It processes 77 trains during the 8am rush hour, or 19.25 trains per track per hour. I didn't check Fullerton, but it would be essentially the same, just a mile south of Belmont.
Red northbound: 13
Red southbound: 18
Brown northbound: 17
Brown southbound: 18
Purple northbound: 5
Purple southbound: 6
TOTAL: 77
It's a two-island station, with Brown and Purple on the outside tracks and Red on the inside tracks.
Then there's the Howard Station, for the Red, Purple and Yellow Lines, about 10 or 11 miles north of the Loop where the Red Line terminates. Here's it at the 7am rush hour:
Red northbound: 10
Red southbound: 18
Purple northbound: 7
Purple southbound: 5
Yellow northbound: 8
Yellow southbound: 8
TOTAL: 56
It has four tracks, two island platforms. I forget how they're used, though. Since it is a terminal for all trains except the Purple Express, there's a lot of switching I think. 14 trains per track per hour is what it works out to.
CTA subway fire hurts 7
By Glenn Jeffers
Tribune staff reporter
Published August 8, 2003, 7:05 AM CDT
Seven people were injured early today when a fire along the third rail of a CTA Blue Line subway caused about 50 passengers to abandon a train and run through a darkened tunnel to safety.
Though CTA officials called the incident minor, passengers described panic as they fled through the tunnel by the light of flashes from the third rail.
"At one point I fell," said Sondra Doherty, 67, of Miami, traveling from O'Hare International Airport. "They were very helpful; they picked me up," she said of other passengers.
Riders said the train stopped abruptly and that they saw four flashes, with booming sounds.
The train had stopped between the Division Street and Chicago Avenue stations. Passengers said they left the train from the back and side exits, walking or running along platforms or on the tracks in the tunnel to the Chicago Avenue station.
Passengers said the train operator left the train, and that they followed shortly afterward.
Chicago police news affairs officer Hector Alfaro said seven of the passengers suffered minor injuries and were taken to St. Elizabeth's and Northwestern Memorial Hospitals.
"It was a minor electrical fire well away from the train car," said John Flynn, a CTA manager at the scene.
Sheila Gregory, a CTA spokeswoman, said the flashes and fire were caused by an overheated connecting piece on the electrified third rail.
"The rail operator overreacted to the situation," Gregory said. "She stopped the train and took the passengers out through the subway. This is not normally how it is handled. Being taken through the tunnel can be disconcerting."
She called an occasional small fire on the third rail "a routine situation." She said power was shut off for a short time, but service returned to normal within 20 minutes.
I was interested to read:
"Passengers said the train operator left the train, and that they followed shortly afterward."
Now I don't know what happened, but wouldn't it be standard procedure in at least New York for the train operator to go onto the tracks to check out the train. It says that the passengers followed shortly afterward. It didn't say that the operator led them out.
I had the sense that there was a smoke condition. Have any of you been in the subway in a fire or heavy smoke condition? I have and I can tell you it's very scary, and it's easy to become panicked.
I want to raise a larger issue here for our MTA. I used to be a fire buff and received the department's news bulletin. In each issue, a chief would write up a major fire and detail how the battle was waged.
At the very end, there was always a section "Lessons Learned". Thinking about that now, that was very important. What things worked, what didn't, what weaknesses have we become aware of, what can we do about it?
I would hope that the MTA does critiques about the handling of some of our recent fire, smoke and passenger evacuations. There seem to be weaknesses and conditions that need to be addressed. I hope they are.
To use another emergency service analogy. There is a critical interval in saving the life of a person who has a serious heart attack. If he gets help too late, irreversible brain damage may occur. EMS has tried to prioritize possible heart attack victims and has also mounted public education about how friends and relatives can aid the person while help is on the way.
It would seem that there is a small window of time in a serious fire or smoke condition for the health of the passengers and crew to be protected. How much study and training of crews and supervision has been undertaken? Can the training of crews and supervision be improved? Or will everyone be very cautious striving to Protect their Ass and do everything by the lessons in the book?
In the MTA's simulator, do they expose workers to emergency situations like these?
Is the system prepared? Have they learned their lessons?
What are they trying to repair?
Wed & Thur - circle and diamond ran s/b express while work was done on the local track near Beverley/Cortelyou and KingS Highway. Since no supplement existed for the circles, things were evened out by having diamonds run local n/b.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If it helps, have a dictionary near you.
I agree with the person who told you to proofread what you write.
Michael
Washington, DC
That's good, but most of them are redundant and can be either answered by looking at the main website or by searching the message board websites. Why don't you try asking meaningful questions instead. Here's a hint: avoid questions on Redbird reefing, 76th Street, the Sea Beach line, etc...
why u guys flipping out i didnt do nuttin to u jus asking question iight
Besides what I mentioned before, it's how you post that's raising a red flag. Mmm, maybe the MTA maintenance crews should work on you! The fact that your sentence structure and spelling is so poor, it's hard to take you serious. Would it be hard to capitalize sentences and use periods, question marks or exclamation points at the end? Take a hint: use the 'Preview Message Before Posting' button before actually posting. You'll see errors in no time and you'll be able to post a much more concise message. Besides, I think you belong on the Rider Diaries. :-P
HAHAHA, "lunaticCJR" comes to mind.
Peace,
ANDEE
All kidding aside, I don't 'see' you post over there, unless you post under another handle. Do you or are you just another of the many lurkers who are around there?
Peace,
ANDEE
First do some research to try to find the answers on your own. If you can't find anything, then ask here -- once! If somebody knows the answer (and wants to give it to you), you'll get an answer, although it might take more than ten minutes. If nobody knows the answer, asking again ten minutes later isn't going to change anything.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
What are thee odds?
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Glad you enjoyed the critters and the bambis - sorry life here was SO beyond NYC levels of insane ... if it's ANY comfort, THIS weekend would have been a REALLY bad choice. Heh. But yes, us upstaters may lack in subways, but we've got cheesy-a$$ed CDTA buses that go nowhere, specially gapped in schedule so you ain't got a CHANCE of being anywhere you need to be at an appropriate time.
But since you arrived there, and we NEED to placate Dave by pretending to be on topic, how ABOUT Joe Bruno's p*nis there when you got off the Amtrak train? Pretty damn ritzy and phallic given that the "city" it's in has a population LOWER than out here in the woods at a paltry 5123 souls. :)
Some damned monument, eh? Heh.
It is ironic that all that cash was dumped into a small town train station (that is not even in the city most people think it is in) when the MTA is now trying to go "Back to the Future" with deferred maintenance. How much cash and how many years did it take to recover from the disaster of the 70's and we are now heading back there. It is a shame.
Yeah, as someone of Scottish Heritage, I can do that ... but someone BETTER hand me 1227 to run before I *do* it. Leona Helmsley summed it up *SO* perfectly in terms of what the republicans of TODAY are all about ... "Only the LITTLE PEOPLE pay taxes." Word.
Wonder how all that gambling money the budget's balanced on is doing? Heh. I'm STILL waiting to see KENO on the LCD side signs on da trains. :)
Thanks
The Management
I have a feeling he doesn't understand the difference between a message board and a chat room. He keeps asking the same questions over and over, as if different people will read them each time.
look here
Opps, I am on the Yellow Flag on my 24 hour period/50 post limit so far.
Look at the 2 and 5 line G.O. poster. Sounds simple, next weekend, Manhattan bound trains run express from 174th st to Jackson Ave. Think again.
Now take a look at this 5 line advisory taking place on the SAME weekend as the 2/5 line advisory.
DUH!
Manhattan-bound trains skip Freeman, Simpson Sts,
Intervale, Prospect, and Jackson Avs
Weekend, 6 AM to 6 PM Sat and Sun, Aug 16 - 17
No trains between 149 St-Grand Concourse and East 180 St
Weekend, 7 AM Sat to 5 PM Sun, Aug 16 - 17
Its not that it's confusing, it's just so damn stupid.
GO's are often cancelled. If the second GO is cancelled for whatever reason, the first one still applies.
Or to put it a different way -- if the second advisory only mentioned the 2, some people might think the 5 is running local. The posters aren't always displayed together. It would be clearer if it said "all trains" rather than mentioning the 2 and 5 explicitly, but that's not how the advisories are written.
As of today I'm changing the default behavior of the Subtalk index to be "Compressed-Two Days" instead of Chronological. This will help our new users see what threads are current without so much clutter of all the individual messages.
This doesn't affect anyone with a Cookie indicating their index preferences. It only affects new users (those who have never posted before) and those with Cookies turned off in their browsers.
-Dave
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
SMALL price to pay for some sanity!
But here's a weird thought for Unca Dave to consider - just my 80 pounds worth, reverser out, handle off ... Perhaps a large link near the top of the subtalk page that says, in effect, "Want to know more about how subways work? Click HERE" ... that might do the trick as well since folks here seem to get most irritated with "dumb questions." Having a VERY visible link to "learn all about the subways, click here" or some such might help.
The rest of us can hopefully work out HOW a "discussion group" is different from AOL Instant Messenger ... maybe some snazzy WAV file every time someone clicks on a message ... and to REALLY put the point across, maybe a 10 messages of drivel "twit bit" that can be flipped that will take those neato WAV files thrown out and turn them into ... 8 channel, mono *MIDI* files! :)
C'mon Dave ... you *KNOW* it's PAYBACK time. Heh.
or ...
"It is better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you are a
fool, than to open it and prove it."
or ... to put it in a more modern perspective ...
"Remember folks, on the internet, everyone is equal until you prove
yourself to be an idiot."
My sympathies, guy ... :(
Too bad you didn't get that phrase out there sooner :-). Maybe this restructuring didn't have to happen if it weren't for the few who insist on acting stupid or whatever the case is. Pretty sad huh :-(
Just remember though ... the a**hole is the ONE politically correct thingy ... EVERYBODY's got one regardless of race, sex, religious preference or species. Heh.
PS: I'm a non-cookie.
That makes nine stations or half-stations closed for rehab at the same time, not counting short-term weekend and night outages.
Could that be a record?
Also, due to budget cuts, the museum itself is shut down for a while.
Also, Larchmont Station - Metro North is getting an ADA compliant upgrade.
Now THAT'S interesting. I would have thought the R-143 would have been good enough for that. Then again, I guess the point will be to simulate Automatic Train Operation, and there's no line set up for that yet for the R-143. Then again, only the L is getting the upgrade right now and it will use the R-143's for ATO and even that isn't for a few years. So I'm back to square one. Why would they need to order a simulator for the R-160? All I can think of is that the R-160 might be significantly different from the R-143! BOO YAH!!!!!
AFAIK, it is CBTC ready.
And YEAH, that was the TA's plan so I was told ... there's racks to ACCEPT ATO equipment. Some day. When the day comes that a manufacturer 20 years from now says, "Whooooaaaa (Keanu Reeves style) that's a COOL pinout diagram! Let's boogie." Uh yeah, right.
MOTORPEOPLE! Raise your hands! How long did the R44/46 disco dance party joysticks last? Not to mention P-wire? Heh.
You are saying that this is in addition to the fact that the R-143 is CBTC ready, correct?
R44/46 disco dance party joysticks
That sounds neat. I'll have to look if there are any photos of them on this site.
Adam
It's the same mechanism as "Push Button to Cross Street" switches. Push it, and someone's garage door in Cleveland opens.
That's funny, but c'mon, I know you know what the real deal is with them.
I once encountered a pushbutton that I think was active, but was mounted about five or six feet higher than usual, due to construction. I stood on my tiptoes and could just bearly reach it. (This was at 12th Avenue in the lower 50's or upper 40's, a few years back when it was under construction.)
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
So what did they say?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Duration of Contract 20 Months
Big Names Support Atlanta Trolley Plan
Mark
Here's another plug for HR-1315. Get your Congressman behind this bill. It will allow federal funding for downtown streetcar service like Portland has.
But yeah, if we weren't so busy knocking out knees together in fear, our elected felons would actually begin to say "THIS is too far." Not gonna happen THESE days ... oh look! It's a bomb! Lions, and tigers and bears. :(
Anyhoo, it's all a matter of how much gets siphoned off BEFORE the manufacturer sees a DIME. I've done gubbamint contracting - that's why I'm *IN* the financial mess I'm in ... and I just sell SOFTWARE. *Imagine* how broke I'd be if I had to pay a steel mill TOO. :)
Hey, I was as cynical as the next guy about all the lobbyists, but I thought the price was good. New York's state pols are bad enough as it is. Let's not blame them for stuff they didn't do.
The GERMANS were more respected around the rest of the planet than we are at the moment. Sorry for the impure thought, I gotta go turn my sorry butt in now ... but this one really IS a scandal. And like everything ELSE "Honest Al for only 3%" has touched, a smoking crater with pawprints on it was left behind. Sorry, I actually *LIKE* the French. If you're a MENSCH, they treat you with great respect. Come off like an AOL Instant Messager and well ... heh. It's fun to watch. Much like the catfights I used to enjoy on Christopher Street years ago. The BEST entertainment is free. :)
If the reports are right about losses from underbidding for contracts, and the R160 is one of those contracts, then perhaps D'Amato bribed ALSTOM.
Paturkey and Bruno are mere handpuppets. NO JOKE. (and yes, I sincerely extend my DEEPEST sympathies to Joe Bruno, who announced today that he has prostate cancer) But New York's republicans are even MORE corrupt than the ones in DeeCee (a DAMNED hard act to follow) ... let's see if Alstom survives. My bet is that they WON'T ... the EU doesn't approve of "bailouts" (in TRUE republican sentiment) ... Alstom's TOAST.
But Alstom got suckered in ... as did Bombardier, Kawasaki and all the OTHER "successful bidders" ALL of which had "Honest Al" at their side. Don't believe me, LOOK IT UP! Responsible journalists WOULD of course, but ... wait - isn't that KOBY BRYANT!?!?!??! WOOHOO! :(
So, answer me this, Uncle Kevin. Do you think the French would be willing to open the books on the guys who haven't done them any favors lately? It's no Teapot Dome, but it could take a big nick out of some ambitious Republicans and make them look at least as bad as Gray Davis, and unlike his enemies, they're untouchable. Even if you don't like them, they have NUMBERS.
But yes, what's going on with Alstom is a European UNION fight to the death. The rules very explicitly prohibit "government bailouts" and that is what France is trying to do here to save Alstom. In the end, I strongly suspect that Alstom will be cut loose in the interest of "unity" ... things have changed GREATLY around the world as the neoconservative vision has been rammed down everybody's throats. While France desperately wants to save a home industry and all those jobs, maybe railcars SHOULD be made in Afghanistan or Kuala Lampur where the exchange rates are more favorable to the cartels.
I don't wanna come off sounding like a Commie here - but entropy *IS* an end game and we're accelerating the HELL out of it for no benefit to ANYONE, least of all third world countries. Is having ALL the marbles when enlightened people could crank out all the marbles they'd ever want SO important? Apparently so.
Will the French RELEASE the information? They're going to HAVE to. Will the American MEDIA *carry* the story. Nope. Not with Kobe on the loose. Ever notice that when the Main Street track debris hits the fan, some sports star drives around in a White Bronco, or an actor with the intellectual capacity of SpongeBob is all over the news because he MIGHT run? Or that some mother in Fuddpucker, Alabama drowns her kids and that's good for 3 weeks of diversion?
I *was* a journalist, a TV anchor and a member of RTNDA as a New Director years ago. I studied journalism. Ain't NO such thing. What Americans know, they know from TALK RADIO. Now SHADDUP you whiny arsed pinko commie homo! :)
"The revolution will NOT be televised."
And what ABOUT those 2900 people? Phuggem?
My point was that Europe and France in particular have a clue about the losses that war can bring, especially to PEOPLE ... we STILL haven't gotten it. So who'we gonna bomb NEXT? :(
We liked that sort of thing in Watergate, and then we got sick of it, but everything has its thirty-year cycle. Top Gun's little people played by the Frogs and the media keep its hands off it when the only competition is Liberia? I don't think so.
Could be worse, bro ... you could be a conductor on the LAKE SHORE LINE on an EASTBOUND. Heh. Now genuflect and give me them prayers. Heh. You *KNOW* it could be verse ... with all them mergers and acquisitions out there, airlines dropping like flies, the flies saying "fook THIS" and headed off to Anchorage that things could be FAR worse with the gray running mutt ... to whit:
What happens when you crossbreed a...
Malamute x Pointer = Moot Point, favorites of lawyers but ...
it doesn't seem to matter.
Bull Terrier x Shitzu = Bullshitz, a gregarious but unreliable
breed.
Pointer x Setter = Poinsetter, a traditional Christmas pet.
Kerry Blue Terrier x Skye Terrier = Blue Skye, a dog for
visionaries.
Great Pyrenees x Dachshund = Pyradachs, a puzzling breed.
Pekingese x Lhasa Apso = Peekasso, an abstract dog.
Irish Water Spaniel x English Springer Spaniel = Irish
Springer, a dog Fresh and clean as a whistle.
Labrador Retriever x Curly Coated Retriever = Lab Coat
Retriever, the choice of research scientists.
Newfoundland x Basset Hound = Newfound Asset Hound, a dog for
financial advisors.
Terrier x Bulldog = Terribull, a dog that makes awful
mistakes.
Bloodhound x Labrador = Blabador, a dog that barks
incessantly.
Collie x Malamute = Commute, a dog that travels to work.
Deerhound x Terrier = Derriere, a dog that's true to the end.
Now drop and slap me five. :)
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Mark
p.s.---Red Line trains are sharing a single track so delays are in effect....Green Line trains were not affected.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_3012.jpg
(looks like same tree)
Are they both wrong?
The first picture shows a spruce in the large yard of Blessed Sacrament Church on Euclid Ave. BSC is just out of the picture to the left.You can also see the side entrance to Donnelly & Purcell Funeral Home at the corner of Euclid & Fulton just to the left below the first car.
The second picture was taken from a point further west on the same platform, and you can see the Blessed Sacrament School, which was directly across the street from the church on Euclid.
Crescent St lost its wood platform sometime between 1980 and 1982.
Rules: The lines with the lowest number of votes in a round will be eliminated. Form alliances if you like, but make sure that your favorite line has at least one vote, otherwise it will be eliminated. Each user can only vote once(in each poll), anyone found cheating will cause the game to be disrupted and may be disqualified from any future polls.
Because there are so many Division B full time lines, you can vote for up to 3 Division B full time lines(one in each poll listing) in Round 1.
There will be different champions here
one winner will be "King of the Rails"(Division A and B combined, aka All Division Champion)
one winner will be The Division A Champion(part time and full time)
one winner will be the Division B champion(part time and full time)
one winner will be the Division A Part Time line Champion
one winner will be the Division B Part Time line Champion
up to 5 NYCT lines can win a title(some lines can win multiple titles)
Round 1 Begins from Friday August 8th at 5:00 EST until Saturday August 16th at 5:00pm EST go to
http://nyct.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=Polls
The train made all stops to Union Square and then the conductor announced that the train will skip 6th Avenue to make up time
How stupid was this?
Any comments
Thank You
Thank You
Why not bypass Bedford, 1st, and/or 3rd, none of which is a transfer point?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
But here's the F'ed up part.The C/R was telling everyone to get off the train since it was the last stop.About half of the people on the 6th car didn't want to move so I told them to get out and they still refused.What does the tower turn around and do?They say that it was gonna go to VCP!I mean what the F*** is that!?They say that the train was ending there at 137 and then they turn around and say it's going to VCP!?The hell is wrong with those guys at 137St!?
I was pissed off as it was and that little stunt made me double pissed off.I get back into the train and someone decides to rant "Why'd you open your mouth?" over and over.That got me pissed off 3 times as worse.At that point I was so mad that I told the guy to not say another word or else I'd kill him right there on the train.And in the condition I was in,I was dead serious.SOB got lucky,real lucky.Ticking me off more than what I already was isn't a smart move that's for sure.I dunno what the heck 137St tower was thinking but man,doing something like that in the late night is not such a good idea.
The fact you SPOKE UP might have gotten the Tower to send the train NB onward...
Sssso here I beg to differ.... your opening the mouth prolly made
a difference in CANCELLING the planned sacking of the train....
and made them return it to service..
The other brah was offline... and I'd have liked to have seen you s0ck him 1.
YUCK!
You say they banged seats and held doors. Well, let me clue you in on a truth of the human race: kids will be kids. They will get a little wild sometimes -- and that's OK. The subway at 3am can be a really fun place.
Granted, these kids' fun and games inconvenienced you. That was inconsiderate on their part. But, you attacked them. That is far worse than inconsiderate; it is contemptable. Nothing short of these kids laying their hands on you or on another passenger would justify what you admit to having done.
Some people act stupid? Yessirree: you did.
(By the way, some people write stupid, too: "couples days ago"; "my cuz party"; "I too tired, cranky"; "if doors is holded opened"; "I will leaving town"; "anger water". "Anger water"!! As Bugs Bunny used to say -- oh, Margaret!)
You are obviously a dangerously immature, violent menace, as your own (ungrammatical) words indicate: "When someone upset me I became a maniac like a tornado can cause destruction."
What I wish for you is something that can best be termed "bully's justice": I sincerely hope that the next person who "upset" you is someone whom you take too lightly, and who just wrecks you. We'd all be a little safer if that were to happen.
Your victims would probably have a very different version of what transpired on that train; but, even granting that your version is 100% accurate, the only criminal there was you.
Ferdinand Cesarano
(P.S. -- I imagine that this lunkhead might comes looking for me, so I will have to watch out for a barely literate, violent moron, with boiling "anger water". The only thing that makes this a little bit difficult is that that description fits about 95% of all males in this country.)
Given that there was no injury to the kids, and absolutely no intent to cause injury, even if Express M had been seen doing this by two cops, and the kids had demanded that he be charged, I doubt a judge would have given him more than a small fine.
I just hate this reasoning. The old 'Kids will be kids' reasoning always works, right? I think proper behavior on the subway is essential given the possible consequences of their actions (possible injury or death). When I was younger, I behaved perfectly while riding the rails. I was quiet and looked out the side of a sultry summer Redbird. :)
Back to my point. It is alright to behave as you please as long as you don't disturb anyone else or halt proper subway operations. One prime example was while I taking the 7 home. I was in the first car and these 3 kids, the youngest had to be 7 and the oldest was 10 or 12, were conducting themselves rather inappropriately. What I found really surprising is that no guardian, parent or relative, was around to supervise or rather to chaperone.
They were being incredibly disruptive. What really irked my was that everytime the consist went into a station, they would play games, running out one of the doors and zipping back in to the doors a second or two before they closed. This is unacceptable. This could create unneccessary delays just becaue little Jimmy or Tammy couldn't lay of the sugar. On another note, don't get me started on crying babies. :)
All this in the middle of the day. I've given up. When it comes to the 59th St. tower the D is a second class citizen.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
DUH!
>>>>...and is like some paper railroad game.<<<<
LIKE some paper RR game? IMO it IS a paper RR game, especially when you consider the fact that they write everything in PENCIL.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Look at the typical load of a weekend D. Most of the seats are empty. Those trains would be put to better use if they ran local.
For whatever reason, A's tend to be crowded on the express, so they should stay there. Besides, running the D local gives local passengers direct access to 6th Avenue.
If the D runs express only when the B operates, then the full-time local service might as well be called the B. That would permit the (part-time) D to return to the Brighton line. I would think you'd be in favor.
If CPW only needs one local, why are you so adamant about making the D local. CPW already has what it needs according your statement.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Since this restores the D line to what it was back in 1967, I am in favor as long as the part time D line runs between 205th st and Brighton Beach from 6 AM to 11:30 PM weekdays. The B would go to 205th St when the D is not running.
A/C/E => 8Av
B/D/F => 6Av
What do you think about it?
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
No, the stations aren't packed, but neither are the trains. Waiting 20 minutes for a train at night is not a pleasant experience, and if it's so easy to cut that number to 10, why not do it?
Notice that passengers on your train who need to go to local stations are screwed: they have to get off at 125th and wait 20 minutes for the next A. That's completely unnecessary.
Hey, everyone else in this city has to wait 20 minutes, for a train, on the overnight hours why do UWS residents deserve any better, at the inconvienence of others?
>>>>No, the stations aren't packed, but neither are the trains. Waiting 20 minutes for a train at night is not a pleasant experience, and if it's so easy to cut that number to 10, why not do it? <<<
See above.
>>>>Notice that passengers on your train who need to go to local stations are screwed: they have to get off at 125th and wait 20 minutes for the next A. That's completely unnecessary.<<<
Believe me, there is no huge crowd of people looking to go to local UWS stations at 3am.
Peace,
ANDEE
On the contrary -- with the lone exception of CPW, every residential-area subway line in the city that carries at least two late night services runs them both local: 1/2, 2/4, 4/6, E/G. (The only other late night expresses are the F, which is one of three Queens services, and the Q, which IMO should also run local at night. I'm not counting the N/R, which have to run express on 4th Avenue to turn at Pacific.) I'm not asking for special treatment -- I'm just suggesting that the same rules that apply everywhere else be applied also to the D.
It would be great if late night headways everywhere could be reduced to 10 minutes, but that would be very expensive, since it would require running a lot of additional trains. Reducing CPW local headways to 10 minutes is trivially inexpensive: just run the D local. That's why the 2 and E began running local a few years ago; how does the same logic not apply to the D? If the late night D ran as a Concourse shuttle to begin with (not that I'm suggesting it), I wouldn't argue that it should be extended specifically to reduce local headways on CPW -- but the D has to run between 145th and 59th anyway, and it would best serve the public on the local track.
Believe me, there is no huge crowd of people looking to go to local UWS stations at 3am.
At least not on the IND -- but nor is there a huge crowd of people looking to go between express stations at 3am.
The subway is a mass transit system, not a taxi service. The best way to serve the masses is by running the D local nights and weekends. (You haven't even been arguing to the contrary.) End of story.
You mean 145 St Dispatcher. 59 MT controls 145 too.
That's just it. The 59th Street Tower is controlled by the A Line Superintendent. As a result, the A gets priority over everything else (except maybe work trains).
Why, yes of course! You totally missed when I posted these photos? For shame. They are on page 6 and page 7. Enjoy.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Those are some rather short platforms. They look as though they can only hold four cars maximum—and that is extremely short when it comes to the normal train lengths on the Main/Bergen/Pascack Valley lines. Also, it may be hoping against hope to assume that the low-platform Comet Is will be completely withdrawn by the time that this station enters “full” service (i.e. during the weekdays)—as far as those trainsets go, it’s bad enough that Boonton Line and diesel-powered Morristown Line trains have to “streetcar” the passengers to the cab car at a high platform.
I did see an open sanitary sewer pipe (from an employee toilet) at Archer/Sutphin draining onto the upper-level track bed (this was a few years ago). It was only later that the idiot plumber came back to reconnect it.
Also, next time, looking at a map would probably answer a geographic question. I'm not complaining, I'm just trying to help.
Shoot. You just reminded me of when I worked on Rewe Street back in the late `80s sometime. It was at the end of the street, which was near the Newtown Creek. Way up around where Williamsburg, Bushwick and Greenpoint sort of meet. Sometimes at lunch, I'd weasel my way to the back of this place where I worked, and sit by the banks of the "creek" and watch the barges passing. Stinky but interesting. I would feel like I'd discovered a secret back door out of the surrounding cityscape to the hidden countryside.
Another reason for the stench, by the way, apparently seems to be LaGuardia Airport. It's been claimed that as the airport was either built, or had its runways lengthened, it had some sort of impact on the current, keeping some of the stuff that was dumped into the creek in the creek, and not allowing it to flow into Flushing Bay, Long Island Sound, or the East River. Definitely a mixed blessing.
In any case, this leaves city developers with one big issue. I have read past articles of interest in developing Willets Point, but they are never carried out or wind up losing interest. I certainly hope cleaning up the creek is the primary factor they go after.
Sewage treatment is usually three steps:
1) Filtration to remove debris, small objects, twigs, etc.
2) Aeration/settling, where bacteria or chemicals are used to clump suspended organic waste matter particles together and let them settle to the bottom of the tank. The bacteria can then be recycled. The sludge is burned or shipped to mid-western farmers for use as fertilizer.
3) Ozonation or application of chlorine. This water can then be discharged to the river or ocean.
If I guess right, you had to take classes in mechanical engineering, physics, chemistry (esp. petroleum), hydrology, geology, city planning, environmental sciences or ecology. What else?
You are right Bob, I checked out the picture and could not smell anything bad. :-)
Tom
And said Redbird's storm door window is being used properly :)
Found via the antimob doings...
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
How much would the maglev cost?
Oh, you Nimby's are all alike!
The Gold Line was possible at a modest cost because the railroad ROW predated the freeway which was built around the existing ROW. As I remember it, the LIE does not have such a wide median.
Tom
Now you just gotta go do that when the traffic is dead stopped, so that the LRTs will fly by the cars!
HUH? Is this a relpacement for PRROFF?
Peace,
ANDEE
It is a beautiful picture, but points out one of the problems with a median rail line. The only possible exit from the station is to the street where the photograph was taken, and then there is a long walk to anything. Presumably there is a bus transfer on the street crossing the freeway/rail line. Since the only access to the station is from the cross street, why is the station offset and not built directly under the street?
Perhaps it is an optical illusion, but the structure at the right of the picture seems to be on the other side of the far side rail line, and therefore must be very narrow, and looking at the direction of the shadows, another structure seems to be casting a shadow on the platform at the bottom of the picture. What is there?
Tom
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Don't Have AIM, eh? Download it Free here at www.aim.com!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Don't Have AIM, eh? Download it Free here at www.aim.com!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
During a brief stop at the Cold Spring station, I was able to detrain briefly to grab a photo. The consist was Lehigh Valley F7 #578, diner 'Alex deCroce', and Budd RDC M-407.
After I photographed the train at the Cape May Transportation Center, the engineer inspected the train for possible damage incurred when the train slowly brushed past another downed tree.
After spending an enjoyable three hours in Cape May, we took the 2 PM train back to the Fairgrounds. The engineer operated the train from the M-407 with an MU connection to the F7. The Budd Car's engine was running to operate the air conditioning, but not to power the train.
Once back at the Fairgrounds, grandson Pete posed by the crossing gate (protecting a bike trail). Pete developed a fondness for crossing gates from a children's train book (Choo Choo the Circus Train) that has sound effects, including the dinging of crossing gates.
Is the CTA looking to make some spare money by using the 3rd Rail as a method of capital punishment??
In another article about this morning CTA fire, they described the fire starting in a third rail chair.
What's that??... About the only thing I can think of is the insulators that the third rail rests on.
Chicago Schedules 3rd Rail Exections During Times of Low Ridership and Low Energy Usage--- Person Executed Last Night Catches Fire and Train Operator Overreacts and Evacuates Train
Frank Hicks
Jim K.
Chicago
Elias
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There might be NYCT inspectors on the platforms, checking to see if the conductors are pointing as required.
This way if you miss the platform, open the doors incorectly, or even on the wrong side of the train (That has happened!) then there is no excuse whatsoever. You cannot say "I thought we were in the station."
There is no excuse, You did not point to the board. Here Piss in this cup, and oh yeah, BTW: Youre fired!
: ( Elias
I was riding up front at the RFW and thought that they were all saying a prayer of some sort when ever the train left the stations: "Hail Buddah Full of Tracks, Let me make it safely back"
: ) Elias
A couple of years ago, I was showing a visiting train buff around the system. We were standing by the conductor's board watching them point at the board. Then a train came in, which seemed to moving very fast, and the train stopped with at least one car out of the station. It happened at a major station and supervision came out and spoke with the crew.
Interestingly, I think that's what happened. I was surprised, since I thought that the supervisor's PMA instinct would have caused him to respond more by the book.
It was just a real surprise seeing the train go flying by us. I remember looking up to make sure that we hadn't moved. I hope that no one got burned for what happened.
You still have some "good guys" out there in supervision.
Provided the C/R is paying attention to any special orders. Or even paying attention.
I was working platform at Broadway-Myrtle one cold rainy September day. Due to rehab work being done, northbound trains were coming in on J4 and opening on the southbound plat. Well, in comes an M, and I'm standing at the C/Rs position but she's no where to be found. I finally found her on the northbound side, on a cellular phone. I bang on the door window to get her attention but she's engrossed. Pop! She pushes the buttons for the wrong side, fortunately the R42s had the enablers.
Where am I going with this? The C/Rs board had a red sign with white lettering covering the entire board "GO IN EFFECT DO NOT OPEN DOORS". And I saw her point to a board with no zebra stripes showing.
Fortunately 2 TSSs had just gone south before she did that.
How do they figure out exactly where to put the boards?
What if there are 2 boards (and neither have #'s) and the train overhsoots (or undershoots) and the C/R just so happens to line up with the improper board, and before the T/O gets a chance to buzz the C/R, he opens the doors? Would he get fired for that?
How many boards are there supposed to be per track per platform?
Also, are there differences between A Division and B Division boards?
The "alternate" position does not mean a C/R can open at either one. Its there because most 8 (60') car trains would use the normal B&W 8 car board, but due to the configuration of the R40/42 a second board is required. However it can't be simply labelled "8" bcause it could be confused with the B&W 8 car board.
Its unusual that there will be two unmarked boards, but I can think of one station (York Street, I think its northbound) where they exist. Imagine my horror as we're pulling out my first day on the F and I see another plain board! I thought I had opened at the wrong one. D'oh!
The train was rather crowded when at 10 o'clock it was announced that our departure would be delayed because a freight train was on the track ahead of us. The Steamtown excursion to Moscow runs on the Delaware Lackawanna. At 10:20 it was announced that the 10 AM train was annulled because the freight train had derailed.
We then visited the Electric City Trolley Museum followed by lunch at the elegant restaurant in the former DL&W station (highly recommended: good lunch, good ambiance, very reasonable price).
We greatly enjoyed a ride on Philadelphia Suburban Transit Brill car #76 on the Electric City Trolley Museum excursion. The line is very scenic, and the Crown Ave tunnel is lighted so that the inside can be seen. The trolley makes a stop at the Historic Iron Furnaces, and while we were there the 2 PM Steamtown excursion train passed in front of (behind) the former Lackawanna station.
A return visit to the Trolley Museum and a walk around the parking lot to photograph the UP Big Boy and the Reading T1 completed our Scranton adventure, as we just missed the trip into the coal mine nearby, the next trip was an hour later, and Mike's wife was feeling ill.
We enjoyed what we experienced, but we want to go back again to ride the Steamtown excursion train and take the anthracite mine trip.
What is the fastest that the CP 2317 operates at on the excursions? I myself am rather wishing to see a big steamer run at speed again, but I do not hold out too much hope for the D-L’s track speeds (although I saw some CP SD70s running through Pocono Summit at some 60 mph once)…
Today I was expecting to ride through the Secaucus connector for the first time. So, I climb up the 4:05PM to Port Jervis, non-stop to Suffern. Even though I got there at just before 4:00PM, lo and behold there was an open window seat on the left side!
What happened?
The ol' diesel pulled through on the northbound Bergen Line track, between Bergen Junction and Hack bridge.
Just like what it's been doing for the last couple of decades.
I was sitting on the left side, feeling a bit loopy, as we barreled through the (supposedly) closed Harmon Cove station, couldn't see anything on the right, except for some heavy construction equipment that was still on scene.
All right. That was a very good practical joke. Ha. Ha. Ha.
I was on the RIGHT, and couldn't see anything on the LEFT, except for some heavy construction equipment.
There's your answer. It doesn't matter which way that train goes. Boom shakalah!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
A train is a tool, utility, like other utilities. You can use it for good or evil.
I don't know you can pile perverse on top of perverse, but the Nazi Government actually bought third class tickets (like an excursion ticket) for their victims from the Reichsbahn to transport them. Their precision bureaucracy knew no bounds.
But as Mr. Bayside said, the trains were just the instrumentality--if they didn't have them it would have been trucks, or buses, or oxcarts.
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There's hope yet for Amtrak!! God bless the status quo!
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df08042003.shtml#Bush
Bush has not yet proven he can be elected a second time. (I'm not saying he won't be, but the jury is still out). If a Democrat finds his way to the Oval Office in '05, we have a new ballgame.
Also, assume GOP control of Congress to continue no matter what. With Earnest Hollings announcing his retirement at the end of this term, that seat is a virtual Republican lock.
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Whew!! I am traveling on the Boston Line on the 17th.
August trackwork affecting Amtrak’s Lake Shore Limited Boston section, trains 448 and 449, operating between Boston and Albany, will be affected by CSX trackwork east of Albany. Their connecting trains, 48 and 49 to and from Chicago will also be indirectly affected.
Nos. 448 from Chicago will terminate in Albany August 4 and 5, 18-21, 25-28 and September 2. Buses will operate from Albany to Boston making all station stops.
No. 449 will be buses Boston-Albany August 4,5, 18-21, 25-28, and September. Passengers will board No. 49 at Albany.
On September 2 only, No. 56, the Vermonter, will operate as a bus from Springfield to Brattleboro and St. Albans. No. 55 will be a bus from St. Albans to Springfield. A train will operate between Springfield and Washington for Nos. 55 and 56.
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Uh oh, I guess this means no more off colour jokes amoung train crews in canada...of wait, this is canada I'm talking about...they don't tell off colour jokes.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df08042003.shtml#Canadian
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Hmm, seems like this guy attended the Pataki School of Governance.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df08042003.shtml#Romney
GOV-ER-NANCE!
GOV-ER-NANCE!
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Good, buses suck.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df08042003.shtml#Commuter
It's about taking money from one city, intended for local transit (trackless trolleys), and giving it to Chicago suburbs to build commuter rail.
If I were living in that other city, and wanted to have public transit to take me downtownm I might be a little upset that the money to do t is being diveerted.
Anyway, these are not trackless trolleys, but a guided electric bus system that might use wires or be petrol-electric.
The more interesting underlying stories are that the untried EB system is touted as a replacement for light rail and also that they rejected the CIVIS guided bus system that's being touted for Long Island.
Guided bus system, eh…? You mean that drivers cannot do their job. I always had nightmares which featured me riding on a bus with no driver; please do not let them come true…!! The roads are dangerous enough.
If this is the project that I am thinking about in Boston, then I say to heck with spending money on technology like that. You ask me, money spend on a Maglev system is better spent. This is super-pork.
Hell Yea!!! Get the LIE maglev moving damnit! I say riverhead to downtown via midtown and west side highway!
The thing he's talkin bout is the DOT transit project for long island. But hey, dont call it a bus, otherwise the DOT mite get mad. They don't want this thing carryin the name of what they see as a transportation for poor people(which it isn't at all).
Hey, buses aren't bad. They just aren't as environmentally sound as some other options(light rail/trolley). Sometimes though, a bus is the best option. Say a jitney service for a certain train station. It only serves a very small area. Why make it a trolley/light rail?
If your talkin like, LI transit projects, like say.....combining the N23 with the N40, and in the summers, with the JB52(thats the one from freeport to JB, rite?), then make that whole thing a LR or trolley line.
You don't want transit projects stealing from each other. Better to recover money stolen to build a road.
The political incompetence must be pretty bad for the State of Wisconsin to want to spend the money on a service that goes to another state (Illinois).
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Looks like Amtrain ain't the olny sob story out there.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df08042003.shtml#Via
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Related factoid. Discarded newspaper, recycled in Connecticut, loaded onto box cars and sent to candaian paper mills, is on newsstands again within 48 hours.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df08042003.shtml#Newspaper
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Makes me feel like a chump paying 90 Pounds for a round trip back in 1994 when the line was new. And that was the discount rate.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df08042003.shtml#Eurostar
Call Arm & Hammer and get the baking soda out there to fix the problem…
Don’t know why, when I was a kid, my parents told me that we lived in Flushing when I was a baby when it was really Kew Gardens Hills—when I told kids in Ireland that I lived in a place called Flushing, guess what ridicule that spawned…!
It's further south than that; Kew Gardens Hills is part of Flushing. The south end of Flushing is Union Turnpike.
The trip photos can be found at
http://palter.org/~brotzman/07-19-03_PORT_JERVIS_TRIP/Part-1/
And the tower photos are the first 19 entires dated 08-Aug-2003 at:
http://palter.org/~brotzman/Towers/?M=D
And as always some teasers....
Here is the view out the side of the train as we cross the historic Moonda Viaduct on the old Erie Graham Line.
And the reverse:
Wow...what a spectacular view...
And here is a photo of the original Comet I cab car #5100
And UNION's famous 8-track home signal gantry with 5 PRR Amber PL high signals.
http://palter.org/~brotzman/Towers/?M=D
I did notice one picture with a smudge across the middle of it (single track with iron bridge). Something on the lens?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Jimmy
Tell me again...
If there's a ten-car r62a consist rolling down the Flushing line
with a sole REDBIRD car at the tail end........ WHERE IS THIS TRAIN
GOING... or what's the purpose of these (Not In Service) consists again??
Spotted such consist heading towards TSQ at Court House Rd. today
approx. 1220 noon (later saw same consist switchover to Flushing
bound tracks outside of HuntersPoint Ave portal)
PARTIAL car numbers included 2100-1720-1719-1718-1717-1716-9312REDBIRD
In case the T/O overruns a signal he only smashes up the Redbird and no big loss? ;-)
They need a single unit with trippers on both sides on the front so the T/O overruns a signal the train will (or should) stop.
Oh well, thanks for the details.
I think I simulated a traveler finishing a trip even though I had not gone far. I had been dropped off at the Bradley International terminal at about 12:15 P.M. with a 15kg suitcase (with wheels) and a 4kg carry on bag. The long walk to find the airline check-in counter was not too difficult, but when I got there, there was a rather chaotic check-in procedure. I had been standing in line for about five minutes when I was told by a security person that I had to have my suitcase scanned and sniffed before check-in. I left the line I was in and went to another line across the concourse. There I surrendered the suitcase and observed it going through the industrial strength MRI, and being loaded on a cart and returned to the area I had been in. I returned to that area and again got in line. I finally got to the head of the line, and because of a problem with my travel documents was told I could not board the flight. That was about 1:50 P.M.
I was extremely tired, since I had been up all night finishing work that had to be done before I left, and as a strategy to insure that I would sleep soundly on the plane and thus reduce the effects of jet lag. The disappointment of not being able to go on the flight, not having eaten all day, and the fatigue of standing in lines for an hour and a half really got to me. I started for the exit and asked one of the baggage handlers where I could catch the bus to the Green Line. He told me I had to go down to the Arrivals level and I could catch the "G" shuttle to the Green Line at the blue signs at either end of the building. The elevators were also at the ends of the building, so I went down one and right outside. At no time did I see any sign indicating a shuttle to the Green Line was available. To be fair, I was not in the area where arriving passengers get their luggage or go through customs, so there may be signs there that I missed.
Outside the building the disembodied voice which warns that the white zone is for loading only was also telling us that LAX shuttles to the parking lots stopped at the blue bus stop, hotel shuttles stopped at the orange bus stops and car rental shuttles stopped somewhere else. The voice never mentioned the Green Line. I waited at the bus stop while several shuttle buses bearing the letters A, B, C and H stopped (at least two of each). Finally the G bus arrived.
The LAX Shuttles, both to the parking lots and the Green line are high floor buses with about a quarter of the seats removed and replaced with luggage racks. The three giant steps necessary to board were a real obstacle, since when boarding such a bus, I have to pull myself up with my arms. I pulled myself up to the second step and then reached down and pulled the bags up to the first step. I left them balanced there while I pulled myself up to the third step and then reached for the bags, but they had toppled out onto the ground. I started back down to get them when a young lady sitting near the door offered to help me and went down to the sidewalk and retrieved the bags and handed them up to me.
Once I and the bags were aboard the ride to the Green Line station was uneventful. Once we got to the station, I was able to unload the bags without incident, The bus pulled into an area below the platform with signs marking where different buses should stop. The shuttle stops near the elevator at the west end of the station. I walked over to the elevator and noticed the signs in English and Spanish warning that only ticketed passengers could go up the elevator. I started looking for a ticket machine, but there was none in sight. I asked someone who came riding up on a bicycle where the ticket machines were. He said they were at the entrance to the station, and pointed to the west end. I had to walk the length of the station to find the ticket machines which were obscured by one of the supporting pillars. After buying my ticket, I walked back to the east end of the station and took the elevator to the platform.
The ride itself was pleasant and not crowded. I catnapped during the ride, waking up each time the train stopped in a station until we came to the end of the line. There I should have taken the elevator to the exit, but the escalator was right there and I did not want to walk the extra steps to the elevator. I let everyone else from the train go before me so there would be no one following me and pushed the suitcase onto the escalator in front of me. It just fit the width of the escalator. At the top of the escalator when I tried to push it off on its wheels, it would not roll, and I found myself bumping into it with the moving stairs trying to push my feet forward. I was able to lift the suitcase and move it away from the end of the escalator, but I came close to losing my balance for a second, and if anyone had been right behind me it would have been a disaster.
At this point it was 3:04 P.M., but I still had two buses to catch to get home, which I reached at 4:20 P.M., 2 ½ hours after I left the terminal.
In summary although the train ride was pleasant, the system deserves no more than a C-, based on the poor signage at the airport, the use of high floor rather than low floor shuttles (Hertz, Avis, and Budget all had low floor shuttle buses, but in all fairness, the parking lots used the same high floor shuttles), and not having a ticket machine near the elevator in the Green Line Station when the shuttle stops near the elevator and they should expect travelers with baggage will use the elevator.
Since I don't want to ask my friend to miss work again to chauffeur me, I will try the reverse trip on Monday morning.
Tom
Security works the same way at PHL and MCI (Kansas City) - but they don't make you get back in the back of the line after you screen your luggage. At MCI theytake your lugage at the screening machine and you're done, though you do need to sit in two lines for this.
They need to bring the Green Line into LAX. Time to recall the Councilwoman interfering with it...
Why does this Councilwoman oppose the Green-LAX spur? Is somebody paying her off? With its connections to the Blue Line and Metro Rapid (and other) bus routes, the Green Line link would boost regional mobility, particularly given the huge numbers of transit-dependent LA residents.
It's been going on too long for it to simply be retaliation for a bill she didn't get passed.
Why does this Councilwoman oppose the Green-LAX spur? Is somebody paying her off? With its connections to the Blue Line and tons of bus routes, the Green Line link would boost regional mobility, particularly given the huge numbers of transit-dependent LA residents.
Why wasn't it done right in the first place? I've heard that the airport was afraid of losing parking revenue.
Mark
I wonder if people felt that LAMTA did not provide enough contract money for local minority owned firms - and that hasn't been talked about (???) SEPTA seems tobe having that problem with the Market-Frankford line rebuild. The Port Authority, on the other hand, can count that as an AirTrain success ($220 million in local minority/disadvantaged business contracts, and pretty healthy minority aceptance into union jobs with the mainstream contractors).
The bus itself is not hard to find. It stops at all the same stops that the buses going to the outlying parking stop at. The real problem is knowing that there is a bus in the first place. It seems to be a secret at LAX. Did the Culver City bus take you to the Green Line, or just to your destination in that direction?
>>> Why wasn't it done right in the first place? <<<
If by right you mean building the spur into the airport, money had to be the biggest problem, along with talk at the time the Green Line was planned of LAX becoming a secondary airport with a new super international airport served by a high speed rail line in Palmdale.
If the Green Line were extended into the airport there would be the same problems as running "A" trains into JFK. There needs to be stops at each terminal with longer dwell times than normal for loading luggage. The Green line has ten minute head ways during rush hour, being extended to twelve to fifteen minutes in the off peak period. Since the Green Line would have to split with part going to the airport and part continuing to Redondo Beach, minimum head ways to the airport would be twenty minutes or more (Redondo Beach would also have the longer head ways).
Even if the Green Line went into the airport, it would be convenient only for a small percentage of LAX travelers. I live in Norwalk at the end of the Green Line, so it is convenient for me (in spite of two connecting buses), and it would be more or less convenient for anyone living in the southern portion of the county depending on which buses they had to take to get to the Blue or Green Line, but it is out of the way for anyone in the San Fernando Valley, the Westside of Los Angeles, including Santa Monica, Beverly Hills, West Hollywood, Culver City, and also for the San Gabriel Valley including Pasadena and Arcadia whose residents would have to take Gold, Red and Blue Lines to get to the Green Line. Even those in Mid Wilshire and the downtown area would save time by taking Airport buses rather than trying to get to the Blue Line and transferring to the Green Line.
Tom
It would be tough to use any public transportation carrying luggage during the rush hour. Given the tendency of passenger flights to leave in the morning through early afternoon, not many people catching flights would be traveling toward LAX during the evening rush hour.
Judging from the number of passengers on the shuttle to the Green Line without luggage, the Green Line is already popular with airport workers.
Tom
WHAT! Were they actually serious? Where were they gonna put it? Plant 42? Also I thought LAX was one of the larger international airports in the country (not that size neccesarily is the deciding factor, it's just that for some reason I always thought it large enough to handle inordinate amounts of traffic). And why, even if they were going to build this super-international airport up at Palmdale or Lancaster, would wouldn't they install a rail line? It still gets people from the airport to the CBD, and it's not like LAX would be closing just on account of this other airport opening.
But the idea of Plant 42 becoming an international airport (I'm assumign that's the only place to put it, everything else up there was claimed by developers. I would have loved to hear what the neo-Palmdale residents in their mcMansions would say about that, they didn't like Plant 42 with it's twice or 3 time weekly B-1 or NKC-135 flights. I remember sitting at the Air Terminal at plant 42 once, watching a 737 load up, and an old NC-141A do touch and goes, and it's just so damn funny to think of that desolate place as a thriving International Airport. To me the whole High Desert was the ass end of the world, and the Low Desert even lower on the anatomy, a trip out there was shear bordom, so my dad would pull the car over if we happened to pass a SP freight coming or going to Soledad Canyon, or if we saw something up at Plant 42. Course now the whole area around Plant 42 is probably all Strip Malls and housing tracts, at least on the Lancaster side of the base, when Metrolink came into the area, the whole place exploded.
Sorry for the slight tangent, just extremely amusing to think of LAX moving from El Segundo, right on the ocean, hemmed in by oil refineries and apartments, out to such a god-forsaken place, no doubt only to be hemmed in by housing developments and mini malls.
Mark
I scanned the rest of them and put them on the same page as the first two.
Much Ado About Mcadoo
Okay so it's a corny title, but what can you expect from me??
Do you know about Google? It's a search engine that's easy to use and often yields useful results.
I just searched "Naporano". The first hit was presumably a singer, Fernando Naporano. The second hit gave this information (without even clicking on the webpage):
NAPORANO IRON & METAL - EveryTruckJob.com
Company Contact Information: NAPORANO IRON & METAL FT OF HAWKINS ST NEWARK, NJ 07105. Current Openings
And this was the third hit.
And if they're charging this much for Redbird signs, just imagine how much the Brightliner signs will cost (there's WAY more stuff in there on the side, and the bulkhead would have to include the wiring/panel)! Yikes!!!
I'm sure you'll hear about it here first.
Log off your ISP. The place is downtown at 101 Murray Street at St John's University.
Non Members is $5.00 at the door. NYD members: you know about this. Drag a friend to the meeting. You can ride the subway going and coming back together (hopefully with a railfan window to look out from).
let's grab a real ny pizza on the way.....lol
FIRST-TIMERS are free. Other non-members/non-subscribers pay $5.
Come one, come all!
David Ross
Production Manager - The Bulletin
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Maybe it would help some newcomers to describe some of the people selling stuff before the show begins. How many dealers are there? Is it mostly slides, books, magazines? Does anyone ever bring roll signs, builder's plates or any other unusual items?
David Ross
Production Manager - The Bulletin
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
I wonder if the TA plans some kind of finale for the Redbirds similar to what NJT did for the Newark PCC's?
Larry, RedbirdR33
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
David
Of course Redbird fans, cheer up. Those MoD trips are coming later and you'll have a chance ride them with other classic cars, or SMEE's as everyone seems to call them.
I wonder what would happen if I swiped a sign and stuck a couple o' $20s inside the glass, somebody else stole the money, wouldn't that technically be THEM that gets in trouble [for robbery and vandalism]?
P.S. The Williamsburg Bridge signals could use some work. I smell another collision. I was riding on a Manhattan-bound J the other day and saw the GT signal ahead of us clear to green quite a few seconds before the following signal cleared to yellow. That is NOT GOOD. How the hell are you gonna have green followed by red with no yellow in between? And isn't the system wired such that the following signal is supposed to turn yellow BEFORE the first one even gets the COMMAND to turn green?
Robert
Train------> Y/S R R
then went to
Train--------> G R R
then after a few seconds:
Train---------->G Y/S R
then at that very second the train passed and
Train-----------> Y/S R
When a T/O moves a train through timers, their focus is more on watching the stop arms go down than simply looking to see whether the signal aspect changes.
I will defer to Dave B. but what you said happened is pretty
much a "can't happen" with DC line controls. When your signal
cleared from Y/S to G, that means DV relay picked up. That
can only happen if HV at the signal in advance picked up, but
since the red light of that signal comes off HV back contact, huh?
I'd say "line circuit cross", but WB is CIR territory.
P-wire screwed up OFTEN and caused brand new trains to dump or buck or behave erratically. It was an occursed technology when the cars were brand new. I was headed out of the TA *just* as the 44's were starting to arrive and the folks in CIY were less than happy with them at first ...
But I CAN tell you that the first cars that came on the property arrived while I was still with the TA and shiny new cars hooked up tested marvellously. Problems with electric portions developed rather quickly and I've been told by folks who worked them prior to GOH that they COULD be quite fussy on the road, and laid down often owing to "noise on the electric portions" ... take it from there, but that's what I got told.
P-Wire was not PWM or in any way digital and was for braking only,
not acceleration control. It was current-loop,
except instead of 4-20 mA commonly used in industrial controls,
the current range was 0-1000mA. The slide-handle control operated
a potentiometer which was in the setting circuit of a constant-current
generator fed from B+ (37.5V). At the other end of the train,
the P-wire was looped, completing the circuit through all of the
cars. Any interruption of the circuit resulted in a full-service
brake application. A brake pipe was retained for emergency
pneumatic braking.
I thought I'd heard something in one of the many discussions that it actually was a PWM-based system unless I'm thinking of something that came along later, but I do recall that P-wire turned out to be SUCH a dud that nobody shed a tear when it got "snipped" in GOH. Heh.
The BIG problem was the federal insistence at the time for unproven high tech just for the sake of installing it. Folks with REAL "life critical" systems know it's always better to let someone ELSE live on the bleeding edge of technology. Folks may fault the NYCTA for not having the snazziest and newest stuff, but I've always believed in safety first.
But at the time those cars were coming in, we WERE being told that P-wire was some kind of PWM magic ... as to where that might have existed or how it worked was above a motorman's salary grade. :)
You mean like CBTC?
Running CBTC on one line of the subway is sensible. If it proves itself, expand its use. If not, you still have block signaling.
I agree that technology for its own sake is not good when $$$ is involved, but New York's transit workers do have a reputation, not entirely unearned, for supporting old farts who don't like and resist any change, and never wanted to learn anything new, in the mistaken view that this will save their jobs.
The ONLY thing that saves a job, of course, is to update your training.
That is sensible, but that is not the TA's published plan. There
is no fallback if the CBTC test on Canarsie is not successful.
The 30 year signal renewal plan for the system is predicated on
CBTC working.
The supposition is that there are operational criteria that the CBTC system must meet. There is no set of such criteria that the TA has published.
You mean they are removing the block signals now?
David
Therefore, the TA's plan is sensible.
If you read Mr David's subsequent post, you will note that the maximum service level provided by the backup block system is 6 tph. They are currently operating 15 tph and the cars on the L are the most crowded between Brooklyn and Manhattan.
In essense, there is no fallback.
If his post is accurate on that point, the new block signals require much longer headways than the current one. Then you have a point. If this is not accurate information, then that is not true, and your contention is false.
If the CBTC experiment succeeds, the block signals will be used only in event of a system failure, until the system is brought up again. This is quite satisfactory in that case. However, if CXBTC is judged a failure, then the preceding paragraph applies.
What is your definition of success?
And what headway is the CBTC system supposed to be able to handle?
I understand the above document is out-of-date (for example, it refers to operating a mix of R-42 cars and R-143 cars on the line), but it contains some interesting information as to the original technical requirements of the CBTC equipment.
According to the above document, the design headway of the Auxiliary Wayside Signal (AWS) system is to be 5 minutes between Atlantic Avenue and the Canarsie Yard car wash to allow for a mixture of CBTC-equippped and non-CBTC-equipped trains headed to/from the wash; the rest of the line is to have an AWS that supports a 10-minute headway (the 4-minute headway I mentioned before apparently is in error -- guess memory didn't serve!). The targeted peak operating headway under CBTC was to be 3 minutes, but the actual best-case headway was to be determined by the contractor (I don't know what the answer was, but since the existing signal system was supposed to be capable of supporting a 90-second headway, I certainly hope that the CBTC system is capable of doing 90 seconds or better if enough trainsets are provided to support it).
David
The TA once ran 24 tph (2:40 min headway) on the 14th St Line. The TA appears to have underspecified CBTC performance. It will be interesting to see what headway the contractor will determine. BTW, who negotiated such a sweetheart arrangement - contractor determines minimum performance?
It would be nice, if CBTC performance were better than the existing conventional 70 year old block system it is replacing. However, maximum service levels on the 14th St line are determined by the terminal characteristics at 8th Ave and braking rates not the signal system. According to recent measurements taken by Mr. AIM terminal capacity at 8th Ave is still around 24 tph and not much higher. The TA could relax safety by permitting faster speeds over the interlocking and approaching the block but CBTC is not required for that.
Of course 40 tph operation is possible. Alternate trains would terminate at 6th Ave. Two things would be required. The TA would have to eliminate the fumigation policy and it would have to add switches on the 6th Ave side of the storage track between the 6th and 8th Ave stations. Are they planning either?
??
1) When the CBTC system shits the bed, and it will, especially
during the first few years, it will hopefully command all the
trains to stop. If it doesn't, then we have bigger problems.
After quite a few minutes of delay and confusion, control
center will order all train operators affected by the signal
outage to break the seal and engage the CBTC bypass. The
affected area will then be operated by the "fallback" wayside
block signals which will permit an astounding 10 minute headway.
So, in this sense there is fallback, but I would favor the term
redundancy.
2) The excuse for the existing low service levels is the outdated
signal system. The plan for restoring service levels to what
they were 50 years ago is to replace all the signals with CBTC.
This will take 20-30 years.
There is no fallback in that plan if CBTC doesn't do what it
is supposed to do. In other words, the possibility of the CBTC
"experiment" failing is not defined. The TA has not published
a "fallback" plan, at least not that I am aware of, along the
lines of "well, if the CBTC thing on Canarsie doesn't work out,
we'll just install conventional cab signals".
The existing block signal system is designed to keep trains
a safe braking distance apart, plus margin. Under CBTC, the
wayside block system is there to provide redundancy in case
of total failure of the CBTC system or for work trains or other
equipment that doesn't have the car-borne CBTC equipment. This
system works with very long block lengths, in some cases
interlocking-to-interlocking is a single block.
David
You misunderstand my question. Why shouldn't the NEW block signals use the same distance intervals as the old ones?
David
Also, keeping dual signal systems would be ludicrously expensive
to maintain. The whole justification of CBTC is you get to
dispense with routine testing and maintenance of the large numbers
of track circuits and stop arms that are required to maintain
close headways using fixed wayside signaling.
"Also, keeping dual signal systems would be ludicrously expensive
to maintain. The whole justification of CBTC is you get to
dispense with routine testing and maintenance of the large numbers
of track circuits and stop arms that are required to maintain
close headways using fixed wayside signaling."
OK - now I understand. The new larger block backup system has far fewer components, and there are substantial savings to be had here.
Thank you.
Hey, it might actually work! Then again, those old Motorola lunch boxes were quite a painful learning experience. What I don't get is why not go for full "transponder ATO?" Oh nevermind, we both know who we're talking about here. Heh. But I am interested to see how these new "vital circuits" work out.
Neither current loop nor PWM signals were exactly high tech "bleeding edge" back in the early 1970's. The question is whether the TA and its suppliers applied the technology correctly.
I would have some questions regarding the choice of a 0-1000 ma current loop versus the traditional 4-20 ma standard. Mr. Jeff H noted that the constant current loop supply was driven off a 37.5 volt supply. Question: how much average ohmic loss per contact could such a system tolerate? Answer: there are 16 contacts for an 8-car train including the loopback. Excluding the voltage margin required by the constant current supply (which would only reduce the result) this comes to 37.5/16 = 2.34 volts/contact. At 1 amp this reduces to 2.34 ohms. Next, consider using 4-20 ma current loop. There is the same 2.34 volts/contact. Howerver at 20 ma max current this works out to 117 ohms/contact. Given a system where contact resistance is a problem, which standard appears to offer greater protection? Which standard was chosen?
The BIG problem is that any signalling that ISN'T "RF carrier based" is going to fall victim to PIN noise and other stray fields in subway service. Don't get me wrong, I am *NOT* a Luddite ... while I enjoyed very much living in the age where subway cars and running them was literally "man as machine, working for machines as men" I have also been an electronics engineer (worked for SONY, Matsushita, EXCRETONE in LIC [landmark on the 7 line years ago]) and a television engineer, news director, one man band ala Al Franken with that dish strapped to his neck) ... there's MANY places where "RRRRRrrrrrr! Fire GOOD!" (as in technology) ... but give a homind a hammer and EVERY damned problem looks JUST like a nail. Technology isn't ALWAYS the answer. Not yet, as long as Bill Gates draws breath and is prevented by security from being choked to death by his loyal "customers" as MTA likes to call them. ("Users are lusers and losers are users" says MAC-gruff) ... and when it came to P-wire, even Train Dewd preached that it was a matter of the quality of the pins, connections, voltage drop based on consist length and a number of OTHER factors in calibration that made it SO unreliable, that it got a testiclectomy. And DESERVEDLY so.
Tekkies don't give a qwap - we play the cards we're dealt and just DEAL with it. But some things (like Windows XPee) are *SO* broken that even all our soldering irons, vectorscopes, grid dip meters, dummy loads and acetylene torches just CAN'T fix ... since the manufacturer will NOT provide a schematic under the rules of "Ah so! Schematic?!?!?! NOBODY see schematic."
But yeah, it sucked, BIG time. TA don't cut wires for no reason ya know. :)
BTW, How many subway or commuter trains every have need for more than 12 cars anyway...
The question remains what are the best trainline signals to use in the presence of pin "noise". The pin "noise" is variable resistance due to the connections in the couplers between cars. The TA's choice has been to scale up the excitation voltage and current on these lines. This strategy also scales up the "noise". While there may be an absolute improvement because of the scaling, the signal-to-noise ration remains the same.
Hint that didn't exist in 1971 disco light ... FIBEROPTIC! Red light go away, we dump. Red light ON, we got's DOLBY 5.1 SURROUND TRAIN! :)
Practical technology existed in 1971 but the TA and the car designers either ignored it or pretended it did not exist.
PWM certainly existed in 1971. I designed and built a multiplexed PWM system that used staircase waves back in 1962. It wasn't new or novel even then.
Besides, the 555 timer chip had been out a couple of years by 1971. One of the items in the original application notes was for PWM encoding and decoding.
No.
I said it was multiplexed PWM. The location of each the stairs was proportional to one signal. So long as the staircase repitition rate was greater than twice the maximum frequency in any particular signal, then that signal could be recovered (Nyquist sampling theorem).
This particular project did not serve any practical purpose. It was an undergraduate lab project. It does illustrate what was commonly available a decade before the R44 was designed.
What I *meant* to say instead of "05." was "0.5" or HALF a volt ... adds up quickly in a nominal 34.3 (allegedly 37.6) circuit .... but half volt per car, down much more than 5.0 and you're in TROUBLE for reliability ... typo.
Tell you the truth, I don't remember one critical thing, which was
whether the P-wire signal was ground-referenced and driven directly
from the battery supply or it was transformer isolated using a
switch mode converter.
Especially if the loop is grounded, they may have been concerned
about making it suitably "stiff" against foreign voltage. 20mA
is pretty light-duty in that regard.
Especially if the loop is grounded, they may have been concerned about making it suitably "stiff" against foreign voltage. 20mA is pretty light-duty in that regard.
Almost every 4-20 ma signal I've seen used a twisted pair and an opto coupler, even 30 years ago.
How would P-wire have worked with optocouplers? I can understand
that for point-to-point links, but not for a multi-drop loop
with up to 8 cars. Would all of the LEDs be in series? How would
the current generator have worked? Transformer-isolated? If
not, if the loop were ground-referenced, then we get into the
problem of stray voltage. When there is bad rail grounding, a
ground (chassis) potential difference exists along the train.
I've seen several volts develop under real-world conditions.
It wouldn't be hard to get 20mA of stray current to flow in the
loop. 1000mA would require a lot more voltage than practically
occurs.
Anyway, just speculation on design decisions made a long
time ago.
The output signal goes to the controller, and a feedback signal lets the system use air to make up the rest. I think an airbag pressurew gets thrown in there too.
If the propulsion system kickls out, the air brakes automagically do all the work.
It was quite slick for the 60's, that's for sure. One nice thing is that the braking and power control is via one handle, preventing the typical abuses that happen, and the braking responds a bit faster and more evenly. I suppose interfacing a decelostat andf ASC is easier too...
The M-2 cars usae a digital system, I think.
Field shunting: This has already been explained many times. When the Counter-EMF in the motor equals the EMF, the motor cannot go any faster. A set of coils are activated to shunt some of the counter-EMF field away.
EMF: Electomotive Force.
Newsday Story
URL at http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-lihead0809,0,414047.story?coll=ny-linews-headlines
Methinks there is just an operator in the rear cab. Happens sometimes. Dunno why, but sometimes I just find people in the rear cabs for no reason. If the train were signed as "JJ", KK, or "K", rather than "J", I might be inclined to believe this train is about to turnaround (quickly) on the middle track on Crescent Street. I can't tell if this train is pulling in or out or has platformed yet.
I wonder how they ran service during the time they installed the diamond crossover near Queens Blvd in 1976/7.
All pre-war R units were withdrawn from service by mid-1977.
This pic is at least from 1977, and likely earlier, so there's your date. By the looks of the graffiti on the car and the clothes/style of the man in the window, I'd date this pic 1974-1976.
The date of the pic is not in question (mid 1976). I'm referring to later GO's on the J line that obviously used whatever equipment was then assigned to the line.
What would a NYC Subway Tank car be filled with?
And this...
Why this look? It looks like a combination of a R62/A and the ends, which I really can't account for. BTW, are all new work cars ordered IRT-sized only?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Also, some advice? I am arranging the photos by line: should I arrange them by an entire group of common lines (i.e. 7 Av/Lenox/Broadway/South Ferry/Clark St or Wash Hts/8 Av/Fulton/Lefferts/Rockaway) or should I do it by individual line (i.e. 7 Av/Bway, Lenox, White Plains Rd, South Ferry Loop, Clark St Tunnel, Brooklyn, Flatbush, New Lots, etc., etc)?
Keep in mind that many people can't, due to various medical conditions, etc.
ALL Subway stations used to have public facilities. So, they brought it on themselves.
>>>>....or, at least, find a public restroom?<<<
C'mon, get real, finding a public restroom in NYC is a task worthy of Soloman.
Peace,
ANDEE
I can't speak for how it is now, but no, I don't think it would have been tolerated on the Moscow Metro in the past, I also don't think complaining would have been tolerated on the Moscow Metro.
Can't these people hold it in until they get home, or, at least, find a public restroom?
No, especially since there are nearly no public restrooms to find.
Why are people slobs?
One answer might be they are too lazy to carry it with them to a trash can. They figure a station cleaner will clean up after them. After all cleaning is their job. And a customer figures he's giving them something to do.
Utterly disgusting.
Seeing that most stations are poorly maintained and cleaned (re the BMT 9th Street or IND Van Alst) they see absolutely no problem in adding to the mess. Likely they are not even conscious of the mess they are making. The LIRR has similar problems on some of its runs.
Mess made+mess not cleaned up=more messes
Similarly,
Graffiti & scratchiti made+graffiti & scratchiti not cleaned up=more graffiti & scratchiti
They wouldn't dare try to make such a mess in, say, a hotel lobby or office building entrance because these places are meticulously maintained.
The best way to combat subway slobbism is to keep a place spotless. Once spotted, other spots will quickly appear.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Neighborhoods sponsor yards and park clean-ups. I organized clean-ups of Oakland Lake in Queens.
It would not be a bad thing for Subtalkers to get together and target a station for a cleanup. Pick up litter, sweep the floors, and let your local city council person know you're doing it. Get a positive mention in the press while you do a good thing.
If the MTA seeks to keep new transit equipment for 50+ years and is imposing a Deferred Maintenance program, not hiring enough personal,the MTA is headed for trouble.
SCRATCH THAT, even the graffitti can stay up, those personal don't know their way around a paintbrush
Well some bathrooms are long closed while others smell & look so bad you don't even want to step foot into it and then at times you have the homeless who urinate on the platforms [and trains too :-\.]
Pong by the way is an informal British word for an intolerable smell or stink.
Subway's Pong to Face Deodorant Blitz
And he knows that, how?
I wonder if an underground highway can be termed a "subway."
Theyre most likely doing some work on the Steinway Tubes. From What I know theyre adding a concrete trackbed to the tracks. I don't know for sure.
Picture of a R-142 2 Train at East 180 Street
4 Train Exiting Bedford Park Station
4 Train In the Sunset
Diamond 5 Leaving 174 Street on the Curve
5 Train Leaving East 180 Street
Front of a 5 Train at East 180 Street
61st Street-Woodside
R-142 6575
7 Train with a Blur Effect (not intentional)
7 Train on a Curve
7 Exiting Junction Blvd
Front of the 7 Train at Main Street
Looking Above Another 7 Train!
R-62A? You Decide!
7 at Shea Stadium
Looking at the 7 Train From the Side
Radical View Photo
Another 7 Train in the Sunset
Redbird 9450 Being Taken Apart
The Redbird Next To 9450
E Train at Jamaica Center With a Wrong Destination
Decent Pic of an E Train at Jamaica Center
Nice 7 Line Reflection Picture
Redbird at Shea Stadium
A Pic of an L.I.R.R Train at Shea Stadium
A Passing R40 Slant with the Sun Reflecting
7 Train with the Empire State Building In the Background
Looking over another L.I.R.R. Train
W Exiting Queens Plaza
WOW THAT WAS LONG! ENJOY!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Took the SIRT at my home station (new dorp) to St. George. (I hate the R-44's)
JFK SI ferry to manhattan.
Now heres where my fustration began. I go to the whitehall station for the NRW. I know the N wasnt running and the Q was going to be running through this station. I was waiting either for a R-40S,R-40M, or R-42. To my disapoinment......10 straight R-68s. FInally when I got on the R-68 I took it to Grand Central where there I realized my fatal and dumb mistake. Today was going to be my fairwell to the redbirds day and there was no 7 service between 42nd and Queensboro. So I had to take the W to Queensboro. To repair my fustration, thank god a R-40S came in. Wow, what a nice ride through the Manhattan to Queens tunnel. The train really moved well and I liked the R-40s ride. The A/C was also much much better than the R-68. Another note.....the R-68s dont move whatsoever. They dont speed up very well. I rode ones by AMF and Kawasaki...and I must say the Kawasakis (R-68A) accellerated much better than the reg R-68s.(I kept getting on and off on the N/R lines to try to catch a railfan window. Why so many R-68s? Can some1 tell me why no older equipment was running? Then got on the R-62 7 train for the hell of it on the LOWER level to go out to Main Street. I figure id stay on the line and enjoy it and if I see a redbird ill try to pick it up later. To my disapointment, no REDBIRD consists today. All R-62s. Looked by the Corona yard, only saw 4 consists. DOnt know where the other ones are but that was it. All others were R-62 consists. Why so many R-62's running? Redbirds only in rush hour service?? Id say maybe 6 of them, and there was about 10 trains running today. So if that means anything to some1 let me know.
I was very happy to have the railfan window coming back from Main Street. I sure hope that the MTA doesnt make that into a full cab. I know it sounds bad but id take that compromise right now. Scrap the redbirds and just give me the damn window. If we get that then, at least we will have one railfan window for the next 20 years....hopefully. What do you think? Really enjoyed the ride back to queensboro. What a view of the city. Then I got off and took a W all the way to whitehall. I took a break outside then went to bowling green and rode a 4 train R-142 to my surprize, one of the few 142 4 trains. I must say the AC is freezing and even in a crowded train its a little bit more bearable. To the average rider you do like the R142s better because of the ride, the AC and the announcements. The cars are well lighted and has a nice blue interior.
The redbirds are dead. They dominated for over 50 years (not redbirds but LAHT cars) I came back to bowling green ferry then SIRT. I will most definetly go back around 3 ish on monday to catch a redbird. I will never forgive myself if I dont ride them now cause I know they will be gone. I will be very happy once I ride them for an entire trip through flushing and I dont care whether its express or local. Hopefully a married pair will be saved, but at least we have the R-33S. You never know if there going to be saved or not because the MTA might have sold a specific number of cars to be reefed.
One final note. Most R-62s have a semi railfan window. Its not quitethe experience but ill take the little box. Its all about compromise at this point. The R-68s had a big box but it was all faded and blurry. Oh well. All in all not a bad day.
Redbirds Forever
Chris.
I am thankful that I started riding in the mid sixties (at least what I can remember). Back then, it was 100% subway cars with windows. I was not tall enough to look out the round windows until I was about seven though.
In addition, many of the windows on the IRT opened so I could feel the breeze blowing at my face. It was especially nice speeding up Seventh Avenue between Times Square and Chambers Street with one stop at Union Square to catch a breath and clean out the eyes.
Oh, the good old days, with that window. Subway riding is not the same without it.
My request is when the transit museum preserves R32 cars, they will be restored to the way they looked when new.
1. Stencil destination sign at the front.
2. Painted blue exterior doors.
3. Metal straps inside.
4. Royal blue walls inside and royal blue seats.
5. Tile floor (maybe not the original asbestos). But a good reproduction.
6.Old warning signs on side and portal doors. "Please keep hands off the doors." And the cop with his right hand held up "stop". No riding between the cars.
Did I miss anything?
I think a restored R32 is needed in the future of the subway museum cars and periodically on display in the transit museum and available for subway fan rides.
The GE overhauled cars have them.
Bill "Newkirk"
Nice, isn't it? :)
What is the object that's being reflected in the RFW?
Looks like a light tower in the yard.
I nominate the R-32's for "Subway Car of the Century."
Bill "Newkirk"
One is a subway entrance to the #1 train. It has authentic signs (stolen?) from the subway and the entrance looks very real. I got a big smile from looking at it. There are also manhole covers with steam rising.
Above is a roller coaster, but from the ground level in the hotel, it is made to look like an old el (Third Ave.?). When the roller coaster goes by, it gives the impression, but not a great one, of an el passing overhead.
What is your impression of the subway mock-ups at New York, New York?
What are the differences between R7A and R10? I remember them as the same. Are there many differences?
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r7.html
wayne
In all sincerity, that car may have more to do with my attitude about R10's in general. But the few times I had it as part of my consist, I had to go find it and whack something to make it move. Mostly the door engines ...
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
BTW, I always called 1575 the 'R-10 Imposter'...
I call it a cool car. I like it. Two thumbs up! I'm glad it got to lead on the MOD trip.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
wayne
There is a photo of 1575 in New York City Subway Cars in which it is the lead motor on an E train.
I always remembered that pig. Stuck doors, walk to the front or back as a conductor at almost every other station, stuck brakes, geese coming all the way up front to bang on my door to tell me that something exploded underneath it and the lights went out (oh yeah, let me just put this handle on autopilot and break out my tool box and I'll have it fixed in a jiffy) ... many of us who experienced 1575 in our consist can probably tell similar horror stories. That car was a very very unhappy piece of clanking iron. Fortunately, I didn't see it very often, but when I did I wished I'd banged in sick. :)
Well ... off for some BASSball ... with real fish. Off for my first visit to the magnificent Joseph L Bruno baseball stadium that Chinatown's WTC funding paid for ... if you're interested, since you and Fred go back and forth over baseball, you'll probably be interested in this - and 175 miles from shore, it's BEECHBALL NIGHT! Woohoo!
Check it out - NYC's tax dollars at work ... in Brunoland. But I shouldn't complain - they lit up DSL here in the sticks. FINALLY! And we're "friends" of the Joe - gotta go. :)
http://www.tcvalleycats.com/main.php3
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That game just dragged on and on and on ... I left early.
That's not true with the police department. They expect you to do everything! Don't ever call the station house that you have a flat. Change it yourself or pay a homeless guy $2 to change it. Better also know how to fix a copy machine, a Poloroid Camera, circuit breakers, etc. That also goes for sweeping the station house and/or emptying garbage. And as a sergeant if anyone ever told me that something wasn't part of their job description I would tactfully remind them that walking a cold footpost in the middle of the winter for 30 days is!!! :)
Oh yeah ... PBA. You were just in the wrong union. Heh.
Selkirk: I know that you live in the far north but I had no idea that you had a far as well. Say hi to Porky for me.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Oink!
No Sheep? My gosh. What do you do for recreation?
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Voorheesville, NY (look it up) has had an interesting history. It was FOUNDED just over 100 years ago by a STATION AGENT because an earlier round or prohibition cheesed him off. SO, the law said that liquor and spirits COULD be served if a village APPROVED it. Since Voorheesville was a junction between the Delaware and Hudson, Albany and Boston, B&M, and of course the main line of the mighty New York Central, this was and still *IS* a railroad town. And a HONEYMOON spot! Couples would get on the special train out of here up into the mountains OR, if they weren't so lucky could spend their honeymoon in the saloon, whorehouse and TRAIN station!
And when Prohibition came to America "bigtime" Voorheesville STILL had speakeasies and "coffee houses" for those so inclined to the smoking consumption of HOPS ... VERY colorful and interesting history here, that's why I moved IN. Although it's gotten pretty tightassed from what it once was ...
But STILL the sheep ain't safe HERE. :)
C O W
in LARGE letters on both sides. :(
T R A I N
(they still eat lead)
Selkirk: Actually I do know where it is. I live in Beacon which is a town which has seen better days.(Back when the Indians had it.)
I did spend some time in South Dakota though. Looking for fossils in the Badlands and Indians in the Black Hills. They have some prettyy big farms out there. No cows but a lot of bull.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
That's a Montana thing anywa.
: ) Elias
But it IS a unique car, glad to see it got kept. I'm sure it'll do just fine in static display where it can't screw up the railroad. Heh.
Also, the pattern in the original floor was different on #1575 than the R-10's, you can't see that now.
I did notice on the June MOD trip that the glass lenses on the fluorescent lights are slightly different on #1575. The lenses have some kind of frosting everywhere but the center unlike the later covers on SMEE's. The frosting seems offfset a bit compared to the R-10's. I did notice one R-10 glass lense with the centered frosting on the MOD trip.
Bill "Newkirk"
I was just looking over Subway-Surface schedules on SEPTA's website and I came across this, 'SEPTA GO':
Attention Routes 10, 11, 13, 34 and 36 riders: Beginning at 10:00 p.m. on Friday, August 8th and continuing until 5:00 a.m. on August 23rd Routes 10,11,13,34 and 36 will be diverted to 40th and Market Streets (Market Frankford El) due to track work. Riders can transfer to the Market-Frankford El into Center City or take bus Routes 21 or 42 between West Philadelphia and Center City.
Now that links to a memo explaining why, or rather assbackwardsly links to the homepage, THEN to the memo, but that's here: 8/7/03 -- SEPTA TROLLEY ROUTES 10, 11, 13, 34 AND 36 DIVERTED TO 40TH & MARKET STREETS FOR NEXT TWO WEEKS DUE TO TRACK IMPROVEMENT PROJECT
According to this memo the trolley wire and track are being extensively upgraded, the new track will be continously welded. I guess I'll miss the old lateral swinging of the trolleys speeding under Market St, but it'll be cool to have a smoother ride.
Anyways, this means that 13th St loop and such are out for the 8/11 trip, and we'll have to board the trolleys (if we still want to do that) at 40th St station. It would be cool to ride some moderately rare milage, down 40th St to Spruce and the to 42nd. I am thrilled, cause it means I can walk 3 blocks and have every subway surface line train right there in front of me! :)
Oh yeah, sorry for not bringing this up before, but I kept misreading the 'GO' and assuming it was between 10pm and 5am, as usual, but it's a 24/7 Diversion Routing, so I figured I'd bring that to everybody's attention.
In related news, I hung out in Chinatown and Market East station yesterday. I took this photo of the map at Market East station, I'm assuming that Brian wants to meet at the area marked Section A (you did say west concourse, right?). If that's the case, then I took a photo of a octagonally shaped display board that would make a good meeting point, here (taken looking west, back to the glass overlooking the platforms). Here it is from another angle, taken looking south, note the windows overlooking the platforms at left.
Finally, I walked up to Race St and checked out the Singapore Vegetarian restaurant that some of the group wanted to eat at. I got a menu, and finally got it scanned today, I'll email it to brian when I get it all put together, but here is a photo of the outside. It's maybe a 5 min walk north of Market St at most, and you get to go right by the rather underwhelming Philadelphia bus terminal (especially to those who are accustomed to PABT).
That's about all I can think of for now, I suppose we need to have some sort of chat with all participants again, since last time we couldn't even figure out if we were meeting at Market East or 1234 Market.
we are meeting in the EAST WAITING CONCOURSE of MARKET EAST STATION at 9:30AM. - SubTalk Field Trip to Philadelphia -- 08/11/2003 -- MEETING PLACE AND TIME
The Market East station is small enough that you'll find the group within a couple minutes. Just follow your ears; Jersey Mike will be talking!!! :)
Oh well, we'll find each other eventually.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
How 'bout these, shot Saturday afternoon in Camden...
Conrail/CSX SD45's
NS, CSX, CR; If it had been a clear day, the skyline of Philly would have shown up behind the BF Bridge towers in the upper right corner
different angle
These Pavonia Yard photos were shot from the 27th Street bridge.
north end of Pavonia Yard; 36th St bridge and SNJLRTS yard in background
SNJ light rail 36th St station
light rail yard from 36th St; shot through chainlink fence
light rail yard from under 36th St bridge; SNJLRTS shop in background, left side of photo
How 'bout these, shot Saturday afternoon in Camden...
Conrail/CSX SD45's
Is it just me, or is there something wrong with a yellow "CSX" over a blue background?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Yes, it does look a bit strange.
Nice photos chuchubob! Thanks for sharing.
To think, I doubted the ChuChuBob!
BTW: anyone know how CSX got the SD45-2s? I always think of those as 'western' engines, as in mostly belonging to SP, ATSF and others. Did CSX buy those, did they get them from Conrail, or did they (or Conrail for that matter) get them in some sort of motive power swap with a western railroad?
Dunno, but my first HO locomotive was an Athern powered Conrail SD45. I'm pretty sure Conrail had a bunch of them.
The SD45 was very popular in the East, Conrail got SD45s from the Reading, Pennsy and EL, and I think EL had like the only SDP45s. But these are SD45-2s, not SD45s. The SD45-2 was just like the SD45 in terms of length and powerplant (20-645) and such, AFAIK, but it lacked the characteristic flare at the back of the radiator. I'm not sure how EMD got away with a 20 cylinder engine with a standard radiator, but they did it. The SD45-2 could usually be distinguished from the SD40-2 by it's lack of porches and extreme length, all while lacking a flared radiator (resulting in the odd shape immediately behind the Dynamic Brake blister), and the lack of SD50/60 stuff stuck on it (such as it still having the old style traction motor blower).
Now CSX has 5 on it's roster, all of which come from Erie-Lackawanna, via the 13 that Conrail originally recieved (sigh, the 645 is dying). At the same time NS has none (IIRC), while BNSF has 70 (all from the ATSF side of the family), and SP had numerous SD45mods, including the SD45T-2, the only other buyer was IIRC Rio Grande. They also had some SD45 rebuilds, which they called SD45-2s, but everybody else called SD45Rs, they retained the full flared radiator, and I'm not sure if they were reengined to 16 cylinders. But it was ATSF's 70 some SD45-2s that lead me to call the engine a 'Western Locomotive' I was unaware of EL's Dash-2 V-20s.
The difference is all in the Radiators:
SD45, straight, V-20, no real electronics:
http://crcyc.railfan.net/locos/emd/sd45/sd45.html
SD45-2, V-20 again, but with Dash 2 electronics, cousin of SD40-2:
http://crcyc.railfan.net/locos/emd/sd452/sd452.html
Hey! An SD45-2 in Philly!
SD45T-2 Tunnel Motor, with the special radiator to keep the roofs of tunnels from getting burned, V-20 version of SD40T-2:
http://ncespee.railfan.net/spsd45t-2/sp9250.html
I think the Tunnel Motors have low radiators to bring in cooler air; tunnels that had seen years of steam locomotives shouldn't be bothered by radiator heat coming from SD45's.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Don't have AIM, eh? Download it free here at www.aim.com
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Add 2399 as an original "A-type." It became 2330 after that car was wrecked in 1953 (as noted).
There were some variations in the A, AX, B, etc. numbers and arrangements over the years, don't know that I have them all or its worth trying to sort them out for a short roster, but...
The notable differencew between an "AX" and a "BX" were that "AX" remained individual cars and were not MUDCed--there was a guard in each car in service. "BX" were semi-permanently coupled with a conductor position only in the center (4000 trailer) Car.
AX and BX did not exist at the same time (except maybe a brief transition in 1928). After 1928, BX were 2400-4000-2401 all the way up to 2498-4049-2499 (not 2478-4039-2479 as in the roster).
There was another type "BT" (T for "Twin") when the trailers were scrapped in 1961. They were two car sets 2468-2469 to 2498-2499.
Here's a surprise--museum car 2204 isn't! There was some swapping around at the end of revenue service, apparently involving the original 2204, 2206, 2285, 2468 and 2469. 2204 & 2206 were ex-2468 & 2469 (BT unit) as of July 1965, and became a work motor (often seen at 9th Avenue LL). Both 2204-2206 were to be restored, but I'm not sure 2206 was ever done.
Anyway, all we have left is 2204, which until 1965 was 2468. But it might earlier have been 2285. Who's on first?!!
Paul: I believe that it is possible that both the AX'x and BX's existed at the same time. According to both James Greller (Subway Cars of the BMT) and Gene Sansone (Evolution of New York City Subways) the 50 trailer car were received in 1924 at about the same time that the BMT was starting to configurate the Standards into one car (A) and three car (B) sets. The first 45 trailers (4000-4044) were coupled in between 2400 series motors (2400-2489). The next five trailers (4045-4049) had motorman's cabs and were coupled to the south end of Canarsie Line trains during the rush hour.
. Both authors state that the remaining ten 2400 series cars were coupled into two car (BT) units. If this was so how were the AX trailers coupled onto a full car train since being trailers even with motorman's controls they didn't have motors? One assumes that these five AX trailers were parked one each on a block in the Canarsie Yard and that a six car train of Standards came into the yard and then coupled onto these and reversed the process at the end of the rush.
This only lasted until 1927 when the five AX's were finally copuled into the middle of the last ten 2400 series cars.
As we both know the BT's re-appeared in the early sixties when the trailers were scrapped. 2400 series motors 2400-2467 received a 2700 series A motor (2615-2649) in place of the missing trailer but cars 2468-2499 were coupled together once again forming two car sets .(BT)
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
With the 4000 trailers gone, the TA no longer had the headache of worrying about train makeup with an unpowered car, and that grade on the Brooklyn entry to the H tracks on the Manhattan Bridge.
As to early BTs I don't know anything about them specifically so can't comment. Notwithstanding that they had controls, I never heard of any 4000 trailers being picked up as control cars "on the fly." Not saying it didn't happen--I just never heard of it.
Firstly the terms A,B,BT,BX etc are confusing as related to car types.The car was a "Standard" also known as a "67 footer" or in the early days as a "Steel." The A and B designations and so forth refer only various car configurations that came about when the BMT decided to economize and not have all 900 Standard Motors operating as double-ended single units. The 50 Standard Trailer cars delivered in 1924 were to the best of my knowledge never refered to as "X" cars. But whatever unit they were attached to had an "X" suffix added to its description. )i.e. AX,BX.
(I know that your aware of all this I only write it down here to clarify my thoughts.)
The 4000 series trailers were ordered in order to have sufficient cars on hand for the opening of the 14 Street Line. However the line when opened on July 30, 1924 only ran between 6 Avenue and Montrose Avenue. IT would be four more years before it was extended to Broadway Junction.
Twenty
cars
were to be assigned to this line with a total of six-3 car trains required for rush hour service. Two cars arrived on June 18, 1924 followed by 18 more on June 22.
The cars were numbered 2700-4040-2701 thru 2718-4049-2719. They were refered to as "AX"s because the trailer was inserted between two "A" units instead of between two "B" units. As you have said all three cars retained motorman's controls at both ends and were not wired together.
What confused me was the comment in both Sansone's book and the
Greller
book that the trailers were added to the south end of Canrsie Line trains during peak periods. I should have know better when I read this. There was no 14 Street-Canrsie Line in 1924. Instead we had the "14 Street-Eastern District Line" between 6 Avenue and Montrose Avenue and the "Canarsie Line" between East New York and Rockaway Parkway which was served by Broadway-Brooklyn Line trains. Both authors
state that only the last five trailers were equipted with motorman's control. So I went back a little farther.(or is it further?)
Bernie Linder wrote a History of Brooklyn Rapid Transit Services which appeared in part in the June 1971 issue of the NYD Bulletin. In it he states that ten trailers were assigned to the line and this would make sense since a total of twenty cars were assinged to the line. Ten trailers coupled between twnety motors makes a total of thirty cars or ten three car sets. THis would have been necessary since the line only had limited maintenance facilites.(A drop pit east of the station on the Brooklyn-bound track.) Any time heavy maintenance was required the cars would have to be hauled up the incline onto the LIRR. So a total
of ten, not five trailers must of had controls at both ends. Joe Cunningham in his history, "Rapid Transit in Brooklyn" agrees with Bernie Linder in this.
Bernie LInder confirms the eary existence of the two-car "BT"units.
Apparently the "AX" configuration was only a temporary one and the BMT planned accordingly when they coupled the first 40 trailers in between 2400 and 2479 thereby making the first 80 "BX" sets. THe last 20 2400 series motors were copuled into two car units to await the eventual arrival of the other ten trailers. They didn't have long to wait as the "AX"s were dissasembled in 1927 or early 1928 since the line was extended to Broadway Junction on July 14, 1928.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
The term "steel" for Standard persisted among crew at least into the 1950s. Operating personnel at Metropolitan Ave. would refer to "steels" and "woods," as in "that steel is going to the yard."
There was no 14 Street-Canrsie Line in 1924. Instead we had the "14 Street-Eastern District Line" between 6 Avenue and Montrose Avenue and the "Canarsie Line" between East New York and Rockaway Parkway which was served by Broadway-Brooklyn Line trains. Both authors state that only the last five trailers were equipted with motorman's control.
As I think I said, I don't know much about the various machinations of trailer shuffling in the '20s. Actually, I'm surprised they made control trailers, as you ordinarily don't want to have a lighter-weight car pushed at the head of a train, though this is done all the time with push-pulls. Still, I would think the BMT would worry about this after the trailer-makeup problem which helped cause (or at least worsen) the Malbone Street wreck.
So I went back a little farther.(or is it further?)
Farther is distance, further is degree. He walked farther done down the road. He made further annoying posts in Subtalk. So I guess farther?
Bernie LInder confirms the eary existence of the two-car "BT"units.
I'll have to take his word for it. But I'm not sure they were designated "BT." Never seen a photo or a first-hand source on it.
wayne
That is just so funny.
"Wanna feel safe on the highway? Drive a 1920 BMT Standard."
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
All kidding aside, 2779 must have split a switch at Ocean Parkway. A brick office, presumably a dispatcher's office, was nearly demolished.
#2205 was an RCI office that was scrapped in 1980. The ends were painted yellow. Was #2205 originally part of of #2204 and #2206 as a "B" unit ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Also if you have a copy of my 1996 subway calendar, at the bottom of inside cover page 3 is a photo of a new #2424 with "AA" on the end instead of an "A". The double letter didn't last too long, I heard the extra letter was for cars assigned to the Eastern Division.
Bill "Newkirk"
Those standards that returned to revenue service with the S painted over were literally yanked off the scrapline at the height of the 1966 Jamaica Yard crisis. They covered for the R-16s loaned to Jamaica Yard.
And does anyone know on when exactly Route 15 will be restored back to LRT.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
The article presented another, very plausible, scenario.
So? He's nort capable of mistakes? He admitted that he couldn't raise the money he promised to when he made the agreement with DOT. Further, there is a plausible suggestion on the table trhat there were management issues with the group building the trolley. DOT could have been well within its rights to terminate the agreement.
"SCREW NYCDOT!"
If you (or Diamond) want to blame everyone else for this situation and throw a childish tantraum, that's your right, but it isn't going to get a trolley built.
I love the idea of a trolley to Red Hook and a tunnel connecting it to the subway station, but the effort requires a mature management team, effective fund-raising, building goodwill with DOT, and then keeping commitments, observing codes etc. Is Diamond capable of that? Maybe not. Hopefull;y, someone else will step up to the plate.
But OK. So give up, go home and feel sorry for yourself like Diamond may be doing.
Someone else, someone smart, will figure out how to deal with DOT, and put the trolley together.
Hmmm got you thinking I have.
But he didn't accomplish that either.
I just don't think the City has the interest in surface rail. Look at the 42nd Street trolley fiasco.
Not too many people outside of a few Subtalkers are interested in it either. That isn't a fiasco. That's the city not wasting money on a project that isn't needed.
I like surface rail, and I would like it in Red Hook, but your expectations of DOT aren't reasonable.
AFAIK, George Haikalis, Jeffrey Zupan, and the late Stephen Dobrow were never SubTalkers. I'm not sure how many members of Community Boards 4, 5, & 6 are on the boards.
Also, according to Mr. Haikalis, Lawrence Reuter is in support of 42 St light rail. Peter Kalikow is not.
Jeffrey Zupan is a respected member of the planning community, but that's his job - planning. Whereas his SAS related planning has a lot of support in differrent places, the same is not true of a 42nd Street trolley.
George Haikalis is the well-meaning bozo of the subway world. Nobody takes him seriously, because he doesn't take anybody else seriously.
"Also, according to Mr. Haikalis, Lawrence Reuter is in support of 42 St light rail."
When Reuter gets up and supports it publicly, that's fine.
Haikalis' word isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
You have to read the context, dude, not just the words. You've added 2 people to the list of non-Subtalkers who want this project.
The TA and DOT is wise not to pursue it. There's too much other stuff going on, and it has too many downsides to be a priority.
:0)
As it would have been configured, it would have served a useful purpose. Essentially, one side of the 42nd roadway (south, IIRC) would have been a dedicated right-of-way for the LRT. It would have provided a significant time saving in a more attractive vehicle for the substantial human traffic going between the UN, GCT, TS and Javits, and the attractions in between, especially if supported by "ride-at-will" ticketing.
Of course there are groups with reasonable objections but, as in all public works, the city is expected to balance these interests.
Inherently imptactical? Less so than the current bus service or even, for that matter, trying to stuff car traffic through congested city streets.
Politically, the 42nd Street trolley failed because of three fairly unbreachable principles of NYC politics: (1) "you can't take anything away from the motorist"--i.e., you might be able to build a rail line but not if it took even a single lane from highway traffic (this is also unwritten policy at NYS DOT--I had it said to me directly); (2) any interest group with power the city respects can halt virtually any project; and (3) any project that deviates from "the playbook" (i.e., established principles of what the city already builds) must have a constituency with clout behind it, even if the city thinks it an objectively good idea.
As to the 42nd Street line in particular, I am agnostic as to whether or not it would have been the best tryout for light rail in the city, but the idea failed for political reasons--it never got to the practical.
In the case of 42nd St would you like to tell me which 2 lanes you'd take away and not cause havoc. Your argument here makes no sense at all.
Yes, any surface mass transit plan in the city is going to disrupt traffic in one way or another but at some point we have to take a longer or wider view unless we build nothing but prohibitively expensive subways. You sometimes have to ask the questions: "what will this project do the overall people-moving capacity of this corridor?" and "what broader transportation/environmental/planning purpose will this serve?" and not only "how will this negatively impact car traffic.
Turn the question around. Suppose the 42nd Street light rail and its proposed existed, on the ground, now. Suppose it could be replaced by all highway lanes (as now) at no cost (Washington-funded, whatever) in order to increase highway capacity at the expense of discontinuing the light rail.
Would you make any arguments approving of this? Would you make no arguments against it? If the scheme is truly impractical on its face, the answer to both questions should be yes.
Which would be balanced by making another street one way the opposite direction, right (I forgot which streets north and south are one-way) - is there a street large enough nearby, closer than 34th Street, to do it?
"Turn the question around. Suppose the 42nd Street light rail and its proposed existed, on the ground, now. Suppose it could be replaced by all highway lanes (as now) at no cost (Washington-funded, whatever) in order to increase highway capacity at the expense of discontinuing the light rail. "
I guess my initial reaction would be to reject the highway. It's hard to answer that question because 42nd St would have looked and functioned much differently had light rail been on it already.
But there are places where light rail would have become a burden. For instance, Germantown Av in Philly - I don't see light rail being able to come back there (though Erie and Girard are another story). Part of the problem of restoring trolley service to Heath St in Boston is its narrow dimensions compared to new wider streetcars.
If you could stack the trolleys that would take only one lane - but the stack would leave one line elevated (can't sink it; the subway is in the way - or mybe you can, a little???)
For the record, I lived on a street (Vine St in Philly) which was as wide as Queens Blvd. and got an expressway - the result was better flowing traffic, a reduction in air pollution and importantly, fewer people risking their lives crossing the street. That was one place an expressway made sense. They didn't put in light rail, but today it could still feasibly be added, for a price. But it's so close to the Market Street subway and Green Line services that it won't get trolley service.
Which would be balanced by making another street one way the opposite direction, right (I forgot which streets north and south are one-way) - is there a street large enough nearby, closer than 34th Street, to do it?
IIRC, parking would have been prohibited on 43rd Street as the westbound. This is where the major and effective opposition came from.
That would make Jersey Mikes day.
Peace,
ANDEE
If 42nd were made eastbound only, you'd have to use 45th as the westbound replacement (not 43rd). Both 43rd and 44th are blocked by GCT. 45th is the next available crosstown through street.
Which would be balanced by making another street one way the opposite direction, right (I forgot which streets north and south are one-way) - is there a street large enough nearby, closer than 34th Street, to do it?
I don't have the EIS in front of me, but the issue was addressed, and nearby streets were found to have sufficient capacity to handle the diverted traffic. The project lost a lot of support when (to touch on something you mentioned earlier in the thread) Mr. Haikalis proposed instead to fully pedestrianize 42 St. He is currently giving presentations of his new plan for the line, which doesn't differ much from his old plan.
Still, I hardly consider it a SubTalk pipe dream. I honestly think that the project would have been built had it not been for our former Mayor.
BTW, I completely agree that 34 St would be better served by light rail. Vehicular traffic volumes are heavier than on 42 St, Penn Station would get a convenient rail link to the Broadway, 6 Ave, and Lexington Ave lines, and the area more in need of the economic benefits than 42 St.
As far as I'm concerned, the very best spot for crosstown LRT would be 125th Street.
However, if the objective (or an objective) is to demonstrate the usefulness of light rail so that it could potentially go to other appropriate locales, you want it in a spotlight location, where it will be regularly noticed by visitors, the press, etc. 42nd Street is probably the best location, with 34th second. Either one would gain enormously by connecting to the Javits Center. This is now a major pain in the @$$, and the light rail would become the preferred (and talked-about) way to get there.
If you put the first line on 125th Street, the NYT and other papers will have nice articles about what a great thing this is for the community, yada yada yada, and then promptly forget about it.
For instance, you suggest 125th Street. Looking at my handy Manhattan bus map, I see that the M60, M100, M101, and Bx15 cross most of 125th Street. What do we do with those existing bus routes? There are three options: convert them to LRT, divert them elsewhere, or keep them on 125th in addition to the new LRT. Converting them to LRT means laying tracks along Amsterdam north of 125th, Lex and 3rd south of 125th, the Third Avenue Bridge and Third Avenue in the Bronx, the Triboro Bridge, Astoria Boulevard, and the LGA terminal roadway -- and what do we do with the other routes that share those streets, convert them to LRT also? Diverting them elsewhere is more difficult than it might seem on paper, since 125th is the only wide street that runs from river to river between 96th and 145th. And keeping them on 125th subjects them to even worse traffic jams than they have now, since the street will be narrower.
You forgot me.
What about the avenue intersections? Even signal priority for the LRT vehicles wouldn't have eliminated serious delays.
Not too many people outside of a few Subtalkers are interested in it either. That isn't a fiasco. That's the city not wasting money on a project that isn't needed.
As a point of history, you're mistaken, Ron. At one point the City administration was so interested in the 42nd Street trolley that there was a fight between the Mayor's office and the City Council to see which would have the power to designate additional routes. IIRC 34th Street and either 14th or 23rd were prominently mentioned.
But it bogged down in political and commercial infighting and when merchants on adjacent streets didn't want to deal with the fact that some 42nd Street traffic would be diverted, the CIty began to lose interest.
The good side of your attitude, Ron, is that you don't blindly bash public officials. OTOH, you have extraordinary faith in bureaucracy.
OK. I stand corrected. There was interest.
"But it bogged down in political and commercial infighting and when merchants on adjacent streets didn't want to deal with the fact that some 42nd Street traffic would be diverted, the CIty began to lose interest. "
Frankly, a good thing.
If the city were to put in light rail in Manhattan, though, I'd rather see it on a street that does NOT have subway service (eg 23rd or 34th or perhaps up in Harlem - if there's room.
On the other hand: Light rail has been a welcome addition to the Jersey side of the Hudson. It helps New Yorkers, too. Without it, all you'd have locally (meaning Jersey City, Newark and Hoboken etc.) is PATH and the Newark subway.
I won't argue routes. I think I would rather see light rail on a secondary trunk, which could mean 1st and/or 2nd Avenue. I think 42nd Street was chosen for its tourist/renovation, as well as congestion, aspects.
But I would argue that, in a mass-transit sense, 42nd Street doesn't have a subway--i.e., how many people are going to take the Flushing one stop to/from 5th to get to TS or GC? Or the shuttle from TS to GC? The subways under 42 aren't very useful as a local service. Any surface transportation is going to be more useful, with frequent stops from river to river (or from UN to Javits).
Your argument about 42 St is justified - trouble is, there's no good way to execute it. That's why the TA is not doing it.
This are has the potential to be developed for:
1. mass transit, i.e. it has some bus service
2. tourist, the orig. City plan was for the whole area to be developed & Bob's trolley would go right down the middle of it.
So, what happened to the City's development plan, well there's a barge sitting next to Bob's line in the first street he laid track in.
A part of the problem, personalities aside, is that you essentially have a museum operation (volunteers, etc.) trying to create something on public property. If this were in the woods of, say, East Haven, CT, people would be a lot more forgiving of delays and problems.
If the city were serious, perhaps it could have had it structured in a more results-orienetd way, at a cost of how many times what it has spent here?
Truthfully: the top three priorities would have been:
1) A source of money
2) A good relationship with NYCDOT management
3) A wel-managed cohesive team without all the splinters
I appreciate what Diamond wanted to do, but he appeared not to have met these three prerequisites.
www.forgotten-ny.com
You show a good deal of prejudice to DOT without knowing any facts about Diamond's situation. That's unfortunate, because if Diamond made some important mistakes, and has your attitude, he'll not learn from them.
If that is the case (unless the reporter didn't understand), then this was no technicality. It was a failure to meet a contractual commitment.
If the DOT sent casual observers to the work site, I can see how they might get the impression not much was going on - 2 street blocks were dug up, with rails completeed only about 1/3 of the way down one of those blocks. But it seems the group worked on perfecting their track-laying skills before venturing out on the City's streets. It would seem reasonable to me for the DOT to have sent a letter to the group demanding that the two blocks be completed by a specific date, or that the streets be restored to their original state. Then Bob could have posted a request for volunteers to have a construction blitz - after all, it works for Habitat for Humanity. That didn't happen and I'm not anywhere near close enough to this project to know why...
One has to wonder whether the DOT's position was entirely reasonable. After all, there are many organizations seeking charitable donations, and to non-railfans - in other words, to the vast majority of the population - the appeal of a group like Bob's does not come close to that of a charity which addresses a disease or a social ill. Allowing volunteer hours to count toward the group's share would have been much more reasonable. In any event, both sides should have come to a firm understanding beforehand.
"In any event, both sides should have come to a firm understanding beforehand."
IN WRITING, SIGNED AND NOTARIZED.
That's possible. However, in that case, Diamond should have gotten that opinion IN WRITING (though it would have been better to get DOT to sign off on it as well). If he did do that, then he might have a good case in court for breach of contract. Point is, thiis is stuff that needed to be worked out beforehand.
I haven't seen his contract, of course. If he did those things, maybe he wins his lawsuit - but he still ends up burning bridges.
I think that nycDOT just doesn't want to count it anymore because there's been a political change & they want to kill it. I also fault nycDOT and the Brookly Boro Pres. office for not being more actively involved in how Bob was spending THEIR money. For example they could have been of real help with the track laying, i.e. the loan of a DOT payloader and dump truck for the afternoon, including a crew ... hay if the crew was in the area for another job & had a few hours left on the job over a period of weeks ... all they would have had to do was communicate with Bob, so that when the equipment became avaliable Bob could be there with some of his staff.
You're way off in left field there. Your statement about watching Bob spend money is valid, but not the rest. Not having seen his contract with them, you can't assume that they had any such obligations.
You're assuming that NYCDOT should want and support this trolley. If that is not true, it's because it's not part of DOT's charter, and that's OK. NYCDOT allowed Diamond to build his trolley and gave him 10 years to do it. That's more than enough.
You're asking more of DOT than you're entitled to ask, and then trying to blame them for something they may have had absolutely no obligation to provide.
Getting the trolley approved was political. DOT agreed to it. If Diamond had met his contractual obligation, a "change of politics" would not have mattered.
"Bob's group actively grabbed rails, ties, signals, etc. that were there for the asking in the tri-state area (he got to a New City Subway site before a certain other museum & grabbed the best signals). This plus the labor over the years DOES amount to a significant amount of WORTH."
But obviously not enough to get more than two blocks of tracks done in 10 years. Oh well.
DOT is a huge agency with a lott of important responsibilities. They don't have time to want to kill a trolley, and they also don't have time or resources to help Diamond build it.
Stop wasting your own breath with silly conspiracy theories. Diamond doesn't need or deserve excuses.
BTW, did you send him money for the trolley?
If this is paraphrasing my post, it's taken out of context. Bob's group built much more than "two blocks of tracks" - but that is as far as they got on City streets. They built their track on private property before then. Pictures can be found here.
Or his own lack of funraising (which he admitted) and possibly his incompetence. I think we've shown that Diamond's group deserves scrutiny and that assigning responsibility to DOT for anything more than contractual obligation is foolish. It is counterproductive, because it does not alow appropriate lessons to be learned and applied the next time a trolley is proposed.
Further, he states a rather different timetable than has been alleged in this discussion: "BHRA completed Phase I in 1999. The construction of Phase II had to wait for the completion of ULURP, and the issuance of a Notice TO Proceed (NTP) by City DOT. This did not occur until late September, 2001, at which point BHRA immediately began construction in the streets of Red Hook." (Phase I was the construction on private property, Phase II was the work on City streets). From this, it seems that his group had from September 2001 until January 2002 (when his first problems with the DOT halted work) to build his 2 blocks of street line.
There's more material in his handout, which would seem to show that the DOT was, at the least, failing to live up to their end of this grant (the NYCDOT was the local supervising agency for this Federal grant), and possibly actively trying to sabotage the project.
I admit that all I have is his handout - I have nothing from DOT. However, these should be questions of fact easily settled at trial, should there be one. But it certainly appears that the DOT is pulling the "sure, just try to sue City Hall" and squash the "little guy" - there may never be a trial if Bob just gives up.
If he has a case, he can sue. He is suing, so let's see what happens (how weak or strong his case is).
Too bad he's burning bridges now.
"DOT is a huge agency with a lott [sic] of important responsibilities. They don't have time to want to kill a trolley, and they also don't have time or resources to help Diamond build it."
This pretty much sums up the issue. Judging from what I've read on this borad, in Newsday and elsewhere, Bob was his own worst enemy at times. It sounds like he alienated his landlord [who's building the Fairway] and NYCDOT. Then, at crunch time, nobody will cut Bob a break. Either the whole world's, led by NYCDOT, against him or he's alienated everyone and burned his bridges. I suspect the latter. Now Bob's taken the matter to court. It will be interesting to see how this case turns out.
"Stop wasting your own breath with silly conspiracy theories. Diamond doesn't need or deserve excuses."
It's unfortunate, because a trolley operation in Red Hook would have been a nice addition to the community. But, obviously, Bob and his BHRA couldn't get the job done.
Politicians, and people with interest have NO PROBLEM discrediting individuals, if not directly, then by INUENDO ... if a politician (or their surrogates) TELL you something or write "documents' PLEASE don't take it for any more face value than their lips are moving. I *still* have no opinion, one way or the other on this, but I'm STILL in favor of believing Unca Bob SOLELY based on experience as an "ONTAPANOOR" in NYC ... if you DON'T give the politicos at least HALF your cash (as a non-profit) then you're toast. Anyone HERE remember Mario Biaggi from Da Bronx? WE gave him MONEY as a non-profit amd BURIED the writeoff. Botanical Gardens in the BRONX shut down for the day so MY radio station could do acid rock concerts in Bronx Park with the City's ONLY "trailer stage" in 1971 ...
It's not who you know, it's who you BLOW ... it's a REPUBLICAN thing. :(
"I'm STILL in favor of believing Unca Bob SOLELY based on experience as an "ONTAPANOOR" in NYC ... "
I have no idea what the foxtrot a "ONTAPANOOR" is supposed to be, but Bob's credibility has been called into question not only by NYCDOT but also his landlord and former associates, according to published sources. "Unca Bob" must do more than just rant if he is to restore credibility.
"It's not who you know, it's who you BLOW".
This in a universal truth, not a "republican" thing. The democrats are just as guilty, if not more so, of this than the republicans.
Well, if you were paying the taxes for over ten years on what looked like it would eventually bear fruit, then it became obvious that it wouldn't & and a good deal came along what would you do ? I'm not going to throw any rocks at the landlord.
"I'm not going to throw any rocks at the landlord."
I wasn't "throwing rocks" at the landlord. His position's reasonable. My point is that it's not "everybody's fault except Bob's" that the trolley project failed. There have been posts on this board that attempted to make NYCDOT out to be the bad guy in all this, and the reality is more complicated than that, as the recent Newsday article pointed out.
"BTW, Diamond himself was quoted as admitting he didn;t raise enough money, implying that he didn't meet the terms of his agreement with DOT."
You might recall that I tried to put forth the possibility that NYCDOT is not just being the bad guy here in previous posts and got flamed for my trouble. Now that more facts are coming out, my position seems to be vindicated.
"If that is the case (unless the reporter didn't understand), then this was no technicality. It was a failure to meet a contractual commitment."
Which, as I understand it, is the basis for NYCDOT's current position. If this case goes to court, more facts will come out.
It's unfortunate that some people are taking the position that Bob=good and NYCDOT=bad when the reality is more complicated than that.
A lot of posts on Subtalk are just rants which represent no particular knowledge or set of facts.
But that's OK I guess. If you can't d that on Subtalk, where can you do it?
:0)
If anything, Mr. Diamond will be expected to pay his lawyers for a losing lawsuit he will suffer within 8-10 years and he we be a prime example in corporate America on who NOT to have as your boss.
You're the first to bring that up. Indeed, he put the cart before the horse. Should have paid attention to installing the line, (and insurance and a maintenance fund and all the legal stuff) and only then worried about the trolleys.
Great post.
Oh and where are you going to put these trolleys in? Don't you need a barn to store them and to protect against extreme weather conditions? Last time I was up at Branford, there are several car barns for storage.
Thanks again Ron for the compliment.
"Started to give way," after being rammed by a barge. Whether it was accidental or intentional, I don't think was ever proven.
At the time he acquired the equipment, he had the barn, as well as tracks and wire along the water. It was the street trackage on Van Brunt, Reed, and Conover Streets that had yet to be completed.
It's possible that Bob D. had an opportunity to acquire the cars at a decent price, and was concerned that they'd be more expensive, or even impossible to acquire, if he waited until more of the track was done. It's not as if you can buy trolley cars off the shelf at Wal-Mart.
So that attitude cannot be purchased off the shelf at Wal-Mart.
I would caution against reading too much into these. My response to Ron in Bayside gave a possible reason for the seemingly premature acquisition of the equipment. The fund-raising difficulties are hardly unique to this outfit; almost all charitable organizations have to struggle for donations, and as I said in yet another earlier posting a trolley-preservation group ranks pretty low when anyone who isn't a railfan is deciding what groups will get some of his or her money. The brushes with the law are rather irrelevant, and finally there could be any number of reasons for the firings.
True. The main issues were his contract with DOT, his group's ability to raise money, and on-going management, positive or negative.
Got that right...
You know too much... better have someone else start 1689 for you ;^)
Alan: Wouldn't it be nice if he bought along the R-11 for the BMT portion of the trip. It could be spotted on the Astoria Line at Astoria Blvd on the middle track and we could couple onto it. How would that look. A single train of both IRT and BMT R-types.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
They are operable? What makes you so sure of that?
BTW, why is there no R10 on the transit museum roster?
R-10 #3189 will probably remain stuck as it is now as the R.C.I. School Yard/Office Car at Pitkin Yard for an undetermined future, alongside with R-27 #8145. MTA NYC Transit was considering saving #2959 for the Transit Museum fleet roster (the agency passed on #3164 as their first probable choice), and some preliminary work was said to have been done at Coney Island Yard.
In the final end, #2959 eventually went to the scrapline, and I heard that some TA employees thought that car #3184 would eventually be part of the Transit Museum roster instead. The ownership of R-10 #3184 was finally taken over and assumed by R.P.C., after the botched final result occurred of an auction held at the Transit Museum in the fall of 1989 when the car was alleged to have been sold without an air compressor!
-William A. Padron
[to/from Fulton-Lefferts Blvd.]
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I was in there about a year ago, doing some reference work for a post at one of my Yahoo groups.
I liked it. I liked the control board by the door that gave a countdown of how much time you had left before the doors would open automatically and flush you out. I would have liked to stay in there during the cleaning cycle and watch the floor and toilet seat rotate.
Herald Square Public Toilet Now 50 cents
Doug; It like my swimming coach used to say in high school. "I don't swim in your toilet bowl so don't pee in my pool."
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
"Welcome to our OOL. Notice there is no "P" in it. Make sure you keep it that way!"
Despite the vicious rumors that have been circulating here lately, I do not have, nor wear, a Freudian slip, especially when I'm posting on Subtalk. I dislike Viennese lingerie. I prefer French styling.
I was in there about a year ago, doing some reference work for a post at one of my Yahoo groups.
I liked it. I liked the control board by the door that gave a countdown of how much time you had left before the doors would open automatically and flush you out. I would have liked to stay in there during the cleaning cycle and watch the floor and toilet seat rotate.
Herald Square Public Toilet Now 50 cents
#3 West End Jeff
See Chicago, 1879, Baltimore 1904, San Francisco 1906.
Any questions?
Besides, Redbirds sink. They don't float.
Try autos - proven to float, especialy in floods.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Take both surviving R-10s and two of the Triplexes. And 100 and 484.
#3 West end Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Consider yourselfs lucky.
It's been over 100 degrees out here in California the past two days and they're saying no end in sight for the heat.
A couple friends of mine had to go to a model railroad show in Las Vegas (they are dealers)...117 degrees yesterday.
And I spent two weeks in Seattle last month, where it supposedly rains all the time. Yeah, right. Not a cloud in the sky. I came home to California, and then got rained on. We had a nasty thunderstorm one night and it lasted until the next morning around ten or so.
I'd love to see a good,healthy snowstorm hit....that would certainly thin out the population. A third of 'em would downright kill themselves driving, another third would up and leave, and the place would be decent like it was 30 years ago....
I can picture it now ... music swells, Schwartenegger pulls up to the state house in a Hummer, steps out with a chaingun thinking he's the "Terminator" only to find out that he'll be doing "Kindergarden Cop" again. Got friends in Minnesota who've kept me up to date on the adventures of Jesse Ventura there. At least Jesse had an IQ in the double digits. Add to that, all of the California republican brain trust (Shultz, Weinberger, etc) are in DeeCee trying to keep brainboy from choking on the big red button. I suspect we won't need a hard winter out yonder to fulfill your dreams. :)
You're spoling everyone's FUN -- you let the cat out of the bag!! How did you know exactly what the plot is going to be?
Ol' Arnie claims he's gonna "clean house" if he is elected. My thoughts? His "cleaning house" will consist of windexing the windows and mopping the floors and that's about it.
Personally I think shovelling just one's walk in the winter is much easier than mowing both one's front & backyard lawn during a heatwave.
til next time
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Bombardier sucks. BUDD is the best. Honorable mention goes to St. Louis Car.
Con-bardy-eh? Phhht, they couldn't build a quality original car for America if their company worth depended upon it. Every piece of excriment that comes out of their plant (heretofore: rectum) is either loaded with software and hardware errors, not built to specified dimensions, or vastly deficient in some other, as yet unseen, area. No matter what, there will ALWAYS be something wrong in a Bombardier car, no matter how good it may appear at first.
Besides, the current subway stock has about as much character as a late seventies/early eighties Plymouth K-car.
I might agree with you on the latter, NEVER the former. But Kawasaki only come in second place to the Budd Company, makers of those GREAT Brightliners.
They developed the shot welding process for putting Stainless Steel things together, and there was soo much more to what Budd did outside of just subways.
Budd/Transit America had their swan song when they completed the final pair of 2600 series cars for the Chicago Transit Authority in 1985.
While these cars were probably not the best representation of the builders efforts, Budd gave the customer what they ordered. Unfortunately, these cars did not have fluted exteriors like their older sisters, 2200's, they look much better after the rehab with nasty paint job removed.
Jim K.
Chicago
I think the topic of the thread was the best "subway" car maker. The CTA order was the last subway ('L') car order for Budd. By the time they finished the last pair of cars for Chicago, it was then Transit America.
Jim K.
Chicago
David
Pressed Steel Car Company - because they made my all time favorites the BMT Standards and the D-Types
I'd cast my vote for Budd. They really outdid themselves with the R-32s.
On that basis, I would have to say Budd.
deceased Almond Joys
Not to mention the Composites,World's Fair,Multis,R-8A, R-17,R-21,R-22,R-27,R-29,R-30,R-30A,R-36,R-38,R-40 and R-42.
Also the State-of-the-Art cars and the R-44.
Sadly the R-44's did not live up to expectations and finacially broke this great car builder.
Larry, RedbirdR33
-Robert King
til next time
-Robert King
http://natransit.com/gtabus/ttc/ttc-m1.html
-Robert King
Today, I'd venture to say Kawasaki, based on the performance of their equipment. For [assenger design and ergonomics, Breda (Washington Metrorail) and Bombardier (via their ANF Industrie carbody maker) get honorable mentions.
You could say the same for Lockheed's Constellation airliner. One of the best ever made. The time came for it to go.
Your comments are in line for a rail buff, but make poor transportation policy. The R32 will belong forever in our hearts, in a museum and on your living room floor in HO gauge. But Budd no longer supplies parts; the cars do not handle wheelchairs adequately and are not ADA optimized for hearing and visually impaired, and ultimately will become a maintenance burden.
The TA has made a wise decision to bring in new cars which will serve riders better and are compatible with new signaling and power technology that will help public transportation keep pace with the times.
A list of their products:
SEPTA-"Almond Joys"or the M3 cars - lasted 39 years in hard service 1960-99
NYCT -"Brightliners" [R32]- still in service, survived all types of shit like deferred maintenance and graffitti.
PATCO - PATCO 1 - All 75 original cars Still in daily service on the Lindenwold Line.
CTA - 2200's - Still the workhorse on the Blue Line
My other mentions are :
Pullman-Standard
Bombardier
Kawasaki
and last burt not least, St. Louis Car.
(and you were possibly worried that your life had no meaning - disproved on VHS and DVD, bro)
The ONLY thing that beat breathing them and listening to them was RUNNING them. MMM-mmm-good when you dragged your steel home and laid it up on 18, climbed down and called it a night. :)
Yeah, at LEAST three applied (and they'd CHECK you) before you leave the car. And they ALSO checked for breakers off except under "special circumstances" (I did winter) ... ANYONE who does it, even today, will tell you that the LAST thing they want to deal with is getting run over by their OWN train. You pay ATTENTION to those boring details or you die.
As I've gotten older, I now appreciate the standards fro what they were - tough, durable and damn near indestructible.
BTW, my house still dosen't have AC to I really get to be smug. HA!
Where i live, we have between 95 and 104 while the last days.
I'm drinking nearly 1 gallon water/tea/coke... a day when on work.
Till now i know only about one rail, where the speed was set to 50 km/h
(normal 110 km/h) for 100 meters, but i think the defect is fixed now.
It was caused by the high temp.
At least when we go into a scortching subway station here, chances are (in most cases) relief from the heat in the station is on its way down the tracks.
Because such extreme temperatures are so rare in the UK people's bodies also have a greater difficulty in adjusting to the changes, just as people from the tropics have difficulty in adjusting colder northern climes. Anre remember, excessive heat effects stability of the rail infrastructure, just as it does here. So, there is indeed reason for concern over the current weather patterns in Europe. 100 Degrees in London today, and 105 in Germany is a difficult scenario for utilities, transit, business, and general living...even moreso than here.
And, if you think people here are all that much better prepared for the three HHH's, think of the warnings , the concerns, and even the deaths that occur here where it happens fairly regularly in the summer. Your attitudes for those suffering from extreme weather for which they are unaccustomed shows a decided lack of compassion that would make the namesake of your university (John Wesley: the founder of Methodism, the father of holiness theology, and the man who declared, "I know no holiness but social holiness")turn over in his grave (if indeed his spirit were there).
Yes, those in weakened conditions are vulnerable to heat...they are also vulnerable to cold and the west nile virus. While "climate" related deaths get a lot of press, they pale in comparason to such things as car accidents and simple illnesses like the flue, which kills some 20,000 older people anually, but gets little press. I do not like to be a hypocrite and I give my compassion where it is deserved. A Tornado wiping out a midwestern town is a tragety, a heat wave killing 40 older people in a region that boasts a population of 300 million is life.
OH my god. I never knew the subways in London did not have air conditioning. I remember in the 70's how most MTA cars did not have a/c and that was a nighmare. I remember as a kid, seeing ALL the windows down to let air inside and the car doors were WIDE OPEN. The noise inside the train was horrendous and the last place you wanted to sit was next to an open door. If there was any relief, it usually came from a slow moving fan in the middle of the car. Boy. Those were the days.
I will say this. With global warming taking place all over the world, the Brits better start spending some money and put A/C into those cars. It won't be cheap and will probably DOUBLE the fare in the long run. In fact, the Brits better start thinking about buying new cars since I'm sure most of the older models cannot be fitted with A/C.
The days of 95+ degree temperatures are going to be the norm and people will stop using public transport if they find the conditions horrible. You can blame the auto for this one.
I can't believe the Brits with one of the most extensive rail systems have let it go to pieces. Folks, without a doubt, New York City has the best transit system in the world.
You can thank Margaret Thatcher and John Major for that. Privatization in the UK has largely been a disaster. Even the original company to own the infrastructure, RailTrack, has already gone by the wayside due to gross mismangement, being replaced by Network Rail.
It was indeed a much better system under British Rail. It was, by far, not the best in Europe, but it was a far sight better than now.
Bill "Newkirk"
:0)
1)NYC Subway:
a)R42 thru 68 - "Ding-Dong"
b)R142-143 - "Boo-Dink"
2)PATH - high pitched "Ding-Dong"
3)SEPTA:
a)Broad St Line - "Beep-Beep" high pitched
b)MFSE - no chime, just "Doors are Closing"
4)PATCO - "Ring-Ring" - sounds like an old doorbell
5)BALTIMORE - don`t remember
6)WMATA:
a)Rohr and Breda Cars - "Ding Dong" (like NYC r42-68)
b)CAF - high pitched "Ding Dong" (like PATH cars)
What do the door chimes on MBTA, CTA, BART, TTC, STCUM, LACMTA, Skytrain (Vancouver), MARTA, and Metro-Dade sound like? Are they similar to what I mentioned here, or are they totally different?
I haven't heard this is many, many years, but I can just imagine how it sounds. I can't wait till tomorrow when I can hear it once again. Hip hip hooray for the Philly trip! Maybe I'll take a short video with sound of this ring-ring on PATCO.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
David
Interesting. I can think of at least three ways of doing it that don't require any additional trainlines.
I thought that at least one NYCTA car class between the R44 and R68 did it without a trainline signal dedicated to the dinger-donger.
Mark
DING-DONG! Doors closing!
Click here to listen to a sound clip from www.chicago-l.org.
wayne
STCUM (now STM): No door warning sounds given
Baltimore MTA: Similar to a R142/143
MBTA: Instead of "ding dong", it goes "ding ding".
However it goes "ding dong" to grab one's attention of an upcoming PA announcement. Example: Operator presses PA button.."ding dong"..Suffolk Downs is next.
"Don't drive, take the T."
"Don't drive, take the T."
#3 West End Jeff
Mark
Never heard that one. Let me guess: leaning on the door (or somehow otherwise manipulating it) triggering a horribly-adjusted microswitch?
Mark
Don't do it too often or you'll get on the crew's nerves.
WMATA Breda cars when first delivered had a REALLY high-pitched "ding-ding", F-sharp (2 above middle C) to A (above middle C)
wayne
SOUR!
wayne
What I find particularly strange about them is that they only start sounding a split second after the doors have begun to close.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
www.forgotten-ny.com
--Mark
Back in the late 1930s the Third Avenue Railway built a number of new cars in its own shops rather than invest in PCC technology. Some equipment was recycled from older streetcars, while other items were purchased off-the-shelf from local hardware distributors. The bell used on the 626-645 series cars (including 629 at Branford and 631 at Seashore) is a single-note doorbell, wired to chime "dingding" whenever the button is pressed, and the signalling buzzers are also standard items.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Peace,
ANDEE
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
wayne
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.trolleystop.com
This is one of the postcard views available there
Boy oh boy, now there's a transportation center! Makes me once again wish I had a time machine.
http://www.trolleystop.com
Anyway, I reposted it with the corrected link. Sorry to all for that gaff.
Very nice site, I liked the Coeur D'Alene & Spokane interurban and the Brill ETB in Seattle.
This one works, I promise.
I came across this site. I'm sure a lot of people know about it but just in case, here's the link.
http://www.trolleystop.com
This is one of the postcard views available there
please contact BERA, Corona Yard, NY Transit Museum, short-line and tourist railroads, or the National Trust for Historic Preservation (www.nationaltrust.org). I care about a historic car class, and so should you.
Seriously, though.... I would guess (and hope), based on NYCT's past practice, that at least 10 red R-36 cars might have been shifted to the museum fleet. Is there any SubTalker "in the know" who can confirm or refute?
Subtalk is a good place to bounce off ideas and get feedback, then refine them before going to the TA or your Congressperson etc. I and some others have done this with some success.
But you'll also find on Subtalk posters who simply want to let off steam, rant, rave, put out ideas and engage in conversation to no practical purpose save conversation and company. That's OK too.
Where in the world are they going to keep them? Track space in yards is at a premium and I am sure there are some people in TA management who would prefer that all the Museum cars be junked.
If it can be done (saving 10 cars) fine, I am all for it but sometimes we have to be realistic.
Can you really make marijuana joints out of old subway cars? Won't thev asbestos get you (or will you be too stoned to notice)?
:0)
I always took notice of the Third Ave "el" and the bar room scenes with Third Ave Railways street cars traversing back and forth.
I thought of a time when the the 3rd Ave "el" (Manhattan) was closed on weekends. I figured that this was a NYCTA and not a B of T decision that would spell the end of the "el" as was giving in to real estate and political figures who want the "el" demolished.
Anyone know when weekend service in Manhattan ceased ?
Also when did streetcar service on Third Avenue quit ?
Bill "Newkirk"
My trolley notes aren't as well organized but it seems that the last trolley line to run on Third Avenue itself was the 3 & Amsterdam Avenues line of the Third Avenue Railway System which was converted to buses on May 18, 1947. The last Manhattan-based trolley to operate was the Kingsbridge Line which did not run on Third Avenue but had its Southern Terminal on 125 Street and 3 Avenue.IT ceased running about a month later on June 22, 1947.
Best Wishes,
Larry, RedbirdR33
Post any information you have on subtalk.
The Redbirds will be gone in a few months.
Just out of curiousity, where exactly did you think we would post the information, should we have any? The supermarket want-ad board? Did you think we would post the number of R62As on the 7 in the stall of some bathroom in a seedy bar, to the left of the racist blathering, the right of the comments on who is easy to get, and right above some think stating that 'so and so sukks'?
If this id true, will this section of the R6 be renumbered & keep the other section of the R6 to Norristown.
Posy any information you have on subtalk.
That place is SO cool! And creepy. But creepy cool! I want to explore it more.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Mark
Not a surprising change overall; this was done before:
R1/Airport Line: Originally, the R1 was 30th Street to West Trenton, the Airport Line was North Broad to Philadelphia International Airport (both using Black on Yellow color shceme). Until the Airport Line opened, R1 runs were sent to Media/Elwyn/West Chester on the R3... which later stuck, as R3 trains took over West Trenton. Airport Line just became the R1 Airport, which really hasn't got an eastbound terminal. They seem to just merge into something else, but SEPTA says the R1 officially terminates in Glenside - how is THAT possible, when half the weekend trains are R3 West Trenton runs, which don't service Glenside at all? Jenkintown would be more appropriate, but a few Airport trains do terminate in Glenside. More of them used to, before SEPTA decided to go old-school and run weekend R1 trips from Airport to West Trenton as R3 trains. Likely, if the R1 had opened when SEPTA initially gave routing codes to the lines, they'd have ad the R1 run from Airport to West trenton, as it does weekends now, and the R3 would probably turn back in Glenside.
R2: Timetable/Routing split was sometime after RailWorks. Why, I don't know, but they decided to run Warminster trains through to the Airport as R1 trips, and run Wilmingon trains to... Well, NOW it's Norristown, but I think it was just to Market East or Temple University (meaning trains would lay up in Roberts Yard) back when they first changed it. Beofre RailWorks, trains on the R2 ran from Marcus Hook/Wilmington through to Warminster, with at least ONE morning peak tunrback in Willow Grove.
R3: This split was done... never! It wasn't a split. Ordinarily, the R3 timetable was Media/Elwyn/West Chester to Center City. As I said, though, R3 trips were sent THROUGH Center City (likely terminus: North Broad) to West Trenton as R1 trains. After the Airport Line opened, this continued a few years, with APL trips terminaing at North Broad. SEPTA then just decided to make the R1 the Airport Line (they DID use the same colors), and the West Trenton branch became R3 territory. As such, they stuck with having separate timetables for each branch, despite them being under the same route. Strangely, most (a few peak hour trains originating from/terminating in Center City) R3 weekday trips run from Elwyn through to West Trenton. If SEPTA could find out which side would be okay with their outbound trip times being altered on weekends, they could stop sending R1 trips to West Trenton, and let the R3 take over. Of course, the change would affect inbound service likely as well, but I'm sure the change could be minimized a great deal.
R5: I've never known this line to have the timetables together, even though just about every trip runs branch-to-branch. I think MAYBE, just maybe, both lines, even whn the Paoli side only went as far as Paoli, they had too many stations to fit in one timetable, at least without it being too big (and remember: Railroad timetables read a little differently than transit timetables, at least I've seen this with NJT and SEPTA), or the print too small. The addition of Malvern, Exton, Whitford, Downingtown, Coatesville, Parkesburg, and now Thorndale station just adds to the list.
As far as the R6 goes, it rarely ran weekends, that ceased after RailWorks, and during RailWorks, they ran shuttle bus service from the R6 Cynwyd line stations to Overbrook on the R5. I think when it WAS running weekends, they had more Cynwyd-Norristown trips, but that number dropped to ONE over the years, and now stands at a big fat ZERO.
Personally, I believe SEPTA needs to focus more on the West Chester branch restoration, and electrification/restoration of the Newtown segment of the R8 Fox Chase line. Yes, rail to Reading/Bethlehem is a good idea, but work with what you HAVE first. The Lehigh Valley will be there. Bucks County may not always have a want for trains, though. Give it while it's wanted, Montgomery County whiners be damned!
That was always my assumption.
Yes, rail to Reading/Bethlehem is a good idea, but work with what you HAVE first.
The ROW and rails are there. There are many Budd Cars sitting around, for example in near-by Rio Grande, NJ, that could be rebuilt while the ROWs are being refurbished. All it takes is the will and a lot of money!!!
Finally, you get to answer a question that I ask about your system :-). I think this is a first.
Sean@Temple
One other thing. Why would Septa rebuild the Schuykill [sp?] River Bridge to Manayunk anyway? For all the Manayunk riders going to Cynwyd and Bala? ;-D Hate to say it, cause I'd miss the line very much, but if I ran Septa shutting it down would be one of the first things I'd do. Unless somebody would give me money SPECIFICALLY for the R6-Cynwyd. Too many other priorities!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Yes they do. The SIRTOA runs 24 hours a day with trains every hour during overnight hours.
As far as door closing speed, if NYCT's R-44s' doors were set to close faster, they'd close faster. That's something that can be set in the shops.
David
Jimmy
I remember the ME-1s I rode a few times during my first trips to SI. You had to see these to believe them. Never have I ever seen a rail car in such bad shape, not even the BMT Standards in 1969 were as bad as these were. They were on the brink of being unsafe.
wayne
That should probably be around the A/C vents. You see a lot of that on R-44 and R-62/A cars. The condensation gets underneath the enamel finish and the enamel flakes off. Those vents seem to be made of aluminum, since regular steel would normally rust. The A/C vents on the PATH Class K cars were bare aluminum and had no enamel paint on it. The aluminum could be spuced up with some steel wool if necessary.
" And one I saw (417) had a VERY drippy a/c unit, so bad it caused a puddle."
You also see that time to time on NYCT. I saw an R-42 on the (N) that was dripping big time puddle and all. Something to do with a clogged condensation drain I believe.
"I remember the ME-1s I rode a few times during my first trips to SI. You had to see these to believe them. Never have I ever seen a rail car in such bad shape, not even the BMT Standards in 1969 were as bad as these were. They were on the brink of being unsafe"
That would be MUE-1's. The very last time I rode the MUE-1's, we broke down at one station heading back to St.George. After about 20 minutes we resumed. That's the only time I experienced mechanical difficulites with the old equipment. The next time I rode SIRTOA, the MUE-2's (R-44) were in service and the oldies were gone.
Bill "Newkirk"
We wrote about courtesy on the T last week in light of the birth of a baby on the Red Line. We got a lot of responses, some amazingly bright, others very dark. This one, however, made us cringe.
''Last Wednesday at 8:30 a.m., I was waiting at the door of the Red Line to get off at Park Street station,'' wrote Shaun from parts unknown. ''Someone behind me gave me a push and I fell between the train and the platform.''
''I was completely ignored while passengers walked by and stepped over me as though I were an obstacle. I scrambled out of the crevice, so as to not have my leg removed completely when the train departed. I was not offered any help from the MBTA.''
Shaun left a phone message with the T to make an injury claim report. ''I'm still waiting for my call back.''
It sucks that nobody helped.
Photography... in the pat not everyone had access to cameras like today, portable, disposable cameras, 1 time use. Anyone can take photos today when they feel like unlike the past when only a certain few had the best cameras. There were a lot more trips and railfans didn't have to worry about people and terrorism ruining their Railfanning and photography. Today the challenge of the younger fans is coping with the possibility that photography may be banned or strictly enforced to the point where it is not pleasant.
Car types ... the people miss the old cars the R-10 rumbling down the CPW on the A line, the R-16 the black sheep of all fleets, the Low-V cars, the Triplex's, the D-Types, and many others that New Railfans May Not Experience. All of them are gone and now the Redbirds are going now too, this is something old and new railfans may be sad, as old railfans despise the R-142 and R-143 while New Railfans embrace them and point out how superior they are to the relics of the R-1 so long ago. But remember even the R-46, the R-11 were the R-142 of its day and I know those were hated but now they are respected and they too will be missed 1 day as much as the redbirds. Just as the Redbirds will be the New Railfans will see the end of the R-68/44/46/32/40M-S/142/R-62/R-29/33/36ML-WF and many of the work motors will go the way of the dinosaurs. We will see the death of many models as well. They too will all become museum cars, just as the cars you rode in as children are.
Railfanning itself may be dying but I feel in the future there will be a rebirth, just as things come down there is always a turn for the best, and this will happen too. It's amazing, the more differences between the old railfans and new railfans the more similarities there are.
Thats really not true. You saw just as many cameras on fan trips in the 60's, and 70's, as you do today. There weren't one time use cameras, but we did have little compact 35mm cameras, even back then. The difference in photography today, and yesterday is QUALITY. People turned out better pictures in the 60's, and 70's, end of story. Anyway, I agree with pretty much everything else you said, good post.
I don't want to split hairs, but light meters have been a standard feature on most SLR's since the late 60's. It really wasn't much of a high end feature. You could just buy a handheld light meter anyway. I had to learn photography with gigantic 4X5, and 8X10 large format cameras, the quality is equal to approximately 500 megapixels on a digital camera (see http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/mpmyth.htm look towards the bottom of the page) Frankly these days people think there digital cameras compare to 35mm film, quality wise, unless you have a 25 megapixel camera, it doesn't...
But how many people were running around with brand-new cameras in the late 1960s/early 1970s? My father was using a 1930s Exakta until 1968, when he finally traded it in for a slightly used Nikon Photomic T. That was traded in on a new Nikon FTn in 1973; that's what I'm using today.
Frankly these days people think there digital cameras compare to 35mm film, quality wise, unless you have a 25 megapixel camera, it doesn't...
Most railfans aren't making 8"x10" prints. For sharing on the internet at 600x480 resolution, consumer-grade digital cameras do the job.
I still have five Exaktas in my collection - two pre-war, three from the '50s and '60s - and would still be using them if only I could find someone willing to service them. Instead, I'm using a trio of Canon FTbs from 1971-72 (two purchased new, one very slightly used). They have a built-in center-weighted meter (match needle) and held the number two position in the Canon lineup at the time, behind the F1. The Exaktas were great railfan cameras, especially with the optional waist-level finder, and the Canons are also very nice (and a lot lighter weight).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I am going to guess that you are looking at a 17 inch CRT monitor set at 600x800 resolution. Using film to then display your photos digitally is like running your sports car in first gear down the freeway.
But seriously film pictures should be scanned but also making sure the actual photo isn't thrown in the trash because those are awesome.
First time I drove a VW was when our lieutenant gave me and a buddy his keys to run an errand for him--it was fine until we had to back up--we ended up pushing it.
My point is that you had more work to do to plan your shots without wasting your expensive film and processing cost. You had to be more aware of light and shadow, and I think that contributed to taking your composition more seriously as well.
I always wanted a Graflex. Roger Arcara used to make a cottage industry of rehabbing large format cameras for railfans. I doubt anyone (other than a very expensive professional maybe) does that now.
I used Pentax cameras in the late 60's, my camera had a light meter through the lens, and an auto feature, although I rarely used it. In the early 60's I used medium format cameras anyway. I will admit in the EARLY 60's, you had a pretty limited choice of camera equipment, when it came to 35mm.
"My point is that you had more work to do to plan your shots without wasting your expensive film and processing cost. You had to be more aware of light and shadow, and I think that contributed to taking your composition more seriously as well."
Yes, it is true you had to learn more back then. I understand your point.
"I always wanted a Graflex. Roger Arcara used to make a cottage industry of rehabbing large format cameras for railfans. I doubt anyone (other than a very expensive professional maybe) does that now."
I had a Graflex for some time in the mid 60's. Never stood up to my 1929 Calumet 4X5, or my Speed Graphic. Its too bad not to many people get into large format photography these days, I think it intimidates most people when they see the camera. Believe it or not, usually large format photography is LESS expensive then 35mm, and the quality is literally about 25 times better.
Ah, yes, and a whole generation will never know the pleasure of being to pick a person out of a crowd photo, enlarge it and be able to clearly see "the whites of his eyes." ;-)
Hah! Remember HIGH ANXIETY? Where Mel Brooks super duper enlarges the press photo of the evil guy on the elevator? Could you even imagine the bit count of that final enlargement if it were a digital photo?
Very very interesting area this thread is getting into. The concept of virtualizing reality...or maybe I should say digitalizing reality. It always tickles me how all of this "data processing" is based on the simple concepts of "on" and "off". Switch on. Switch off. In a variety of timing and sequence patterns. Keep track of all that switching...wallah.
Or, maybe we could consider film photography as having the benefit of (not so) hidden "subsidies", such as the Sun, to produce the desired result of a visual image (like roads have the benefits of maintenance and improvement paid for via taxes) vs. having to scramble the "atomic" bits into coherent patterns within the "delivery systems" to produce the desired result of a visual image (like the freight railroads having to pay for upkeep and improvements by themselves).
Ahhh, I've expressed my thoughts on this rather clumsily. It is true though that it takes gigabits to create a "dense" image on computers. To at least approach the, uh, enlargability of what film can offer.
If the photos were so good, and so important to you, you wouldn't have lost them. I figured that most people, yourself included, to whom "real" film, large format film. and good composition of photographs is of paramount importance would at least have the photos filed away in some shoebox somewhere so that, at a minimum, you-the-photographer could occasionally enjoy at home, or at railfan meetings, if not share them with the Web community.
The one point in this argument you've overlooked the whole time is that at least our "crappy" digital pictures are NOT LOST! We're sharing what we've got and some people get enjoyment out of looking at them. They might even be USEFUL to someone. You don't even have anything to share. Just complaints.
"The one point in this argument you've overlooked the whole time is that at least our "crappy" digital pictures are NOT LOST! We're sharing what we've got and some people get enjoyment out of looking at them. They might even be USEFUL to someone. You don't even have anything to share. Just complaints."
If you had been taking pictures for 40 years, I bet you would lose some stuff too. I'm happy to see you guys can share your photos, and I admit digital cameras have definately made that easier, BUT If your SERIOUS about photography Its my OPINION you should use film.
None of us are serious about photography. We are railfans, not photographers. We take photos of trains, not perfect photos of trains. Now that you know this, please leave and go be an ass somewhere else.
Speak for yourself, not the entire message board.
Stick to signals - you actually know your stuff there, at least most of the time (and certainly a lot better than I do). Most of the rest of the time you're way out in left field... and the play's at first base.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Of course, there are some serious photographers here -- but most of us just dabble. Good thing, or there'd be far less documentation of cars and stations.
I'm not under that impression at all. You couldn't have me more wrong. I was a rail fanatic before I was a photographer...
Frankly if not even a half of the people on this message board have responded to this thread, how can you say you speak for the entire board?
Good, so now when anyone posts photos here and maybe even asks for comments, but doesn't specifically say that he is a serious photographer, then don't make comments as if you were assuming he was "a serious photographer."
Frankly if not even a half of the people on this message board have responded to this thread, how can you say you speak for the entire board?
Maybe there are serious photographers here, but they AREN'T POSTING THEIR PICS ON SUBTALK! So the people you are demeaning, the ones who ARE POSTING their pics on SubTalk, are the non-serious photographers, and are the people I am claiming to represent.
I can't speak for anyone else here, but I'm not serious, I just do it for fun. If I were I'd take a few classes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Moreover, most commercial enterprises that aren't looking for a throw-away graphic still PAY for photos to use in books and whatnot. In fact, as you would be the sole owner of the hi-quality original negitives you would retain the right of duplication as most web copies lack the quality for commercial publication. Even on the off chance some company does rip off your photos, as you have the originals proving ownership would not be difficult and you could probably extract a goodly sum of money from them. That sun would be greater than the ZERO you are earning now, and you wouldn't have had to go through the annoying task of trying to find a buyer.
If you hide your photos you are guarenteed to earn NOTHING. If you make your photos available, there is an POSITIVE EXPECTED VALUE. Your paranoid fears mark you as an irrational agent, driven by emotion and not facts.
Why should you having more frequent orbital miles have anything to do with this argument?
because I've seen what happens... most people don't respect copyright law when the web is involved.
How so? People ripping off rail photos posted to the web for their own website or commercial use is a pretty limited occurance. Dave has had a few incidents of this, but nycsubway.org hosts thousands of images, sure one or two will get ripped off occasionally. I have never had a problem with people re-using my images, most people I know have never had a problem. Anyway, what's the big deal. You aren't a commercial rail photographer or book publisher who's sales would be hurt by releasing images on the web. Sitting in your closet or on the web your photos aren't going to get you any real $$. If you post them you'll at least get some respect and the satisfaction that people consider your efforts to be a worthwhile resource.
I'll respect your rights to those photos... but not everyone will.
Yes, and these big bad evil people will cost me a whopping 0$ in damages IF they can come up with some reason to believe that my photos are worth "stealing".
Nothing. But I have almost fifty years' experience with photography... and I know David isn't nearly that old, so he couldn't possibly have the same amount of experience that I do. An eighty year old person who had only started photography when he was seventy would be equally lacking by comparison.
People ripping off rail photos posted to the web for their own website or commercial use is a pretty limited occurance.
How can you be so sure? I've seen two of the pictures from my family website - which doesn't even make it into Google, except for the Ranchero page - on other people's web pages. Neither was used by permission (indeed, I don't even know the people), although one was at least credited. (It showed up in Google for a while, until the website went away.) And where is the only place I've publicly posted my website address? SubTalk. (Neither website involved has any connection, as far as I know, to any of the folks who regularly advertise their websites here.)
And I don't keep all of my photos to myself... Dave has a number of them posted here (North Jersey Coast Line and a couple of shots of Buffalo, NY).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There were also two choices for film developing: a lab, or your home darkroom. Now we have drugstores with machines- film goes in, prints come out, $5.99 please.
The extra A is for aalso.
Something could be said for the current method. Rather than deciding what's good and what isn't, many photographers today make all their pictures available and let the viewer decide. It's different from the former method, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily any better or worse.
The "guess where this photo was taken" posts are fun though.
What *I* enjoy is the more whimsical shots ... like those tunnel smears on LSD that (I think) "Doobie" did ... the usual perspective shots of a train coming into a station bore me. Rivet shots, builder plates and closeups of current collectors, dirty compressor valves and the likes are what do it for me. Warned yas I wasn't normal. Heh.
And it only took 53 years. Heh.
But yeah, that's PRECISELY what I'm talking about. No pictures of breaker panels, no pictures of door cutout levers - of course in these paranoid times, some terrorist might be able to make USE of photos like that and prevent a door leaf from opening, or worse yet, they'd figure out which handle's the brake and which is the controller and they'd STILL dump the train anyway because operating is a LEARNED experience, emphasis on EXPERIENCE. Subway trains ain't flight sim and as much as I love BVE dearly for FUN, if you used BVE to learn how to hijack a train, you'd be in a world of hurt at the FIRST automatic, you'd never MAKE it to a homeball. :)
Paranoid a$$holes. :(
Try to devolop a clue before you open your mouth. You do realize that manual ditigal SLR cameras do exist, they just cost an arm, leg and kidney. Also, while the amazing ISO 64 slide film might be good for the old timey 25mph freight train against a static background and the turtlesque NYC subway on Atomic Bomb Bright days, it is simply not up to the poor weather and dynamic nature of today's fast paced media demands.
If you produce crap, don't flash it all over the place, get rid of it. Basically you need to be more selective. Joe Testagrose, and Doug Grotjahn still take pictures today. Doug Grotjahn still uses slide film, and the same methods he did in the 70s, he still takes great photos. Steve Zabel sadly was murdered in 1986.
What do you think the point of Railfan photography is? Art? Listen buddy, if you want art there are more than enough snoory galleries downtown that will fix you up.
Railfan photos are first and foremost a source of information. They provide a record of what the line looked like when you took the picture. They provide evidence of rolling stock and the condition that it was in. They allow railfans to travel to far away cities and see what things are like there from the comforts of their own homes. They allow the rainfan historian to travel back in time and find solutions to important misteries.
Get the heck off your high horse. Every railfan has a different set of specific rail interests. The more pictures people take the more one might find something captured that he really finds interesting. I personally like signals, switch machines and interlocking towers. I'll bet your heros of old never took a single signal photo. Thank god the current crop of subtalkers post as many photos as they do, they occacionally take a picture of something of real use to me.
You really are an idiot. Did I once say that Joe T., or Steve Zabel used Kodachrome 64? No, I didn't. Do you see any blurry photos from the historical section of this site? I used Kodachrome 64 for quite some time, and got GREAT photos, no blurry trains, etc. There has been 200 speed slide film since the late 60's, and there still is today.. Also, a 35mm SLR DOES NOT cost an arm and a leg, usually you can get the body and a lens (k1000, etc.) for under $200, less money than any good digital camera.
"Railfan photos are first and foremost a source of information. They provide a record of what the line looked like when you took the picture. They provide evidence of rolling stock and the condition that it was in. They allow railfans to travel to far away cities and see what things are like there from the comforts of their own homes. They allow the rainfan historian to travel back in time and find solutions to important misteries."
Speak for yourself, jackass. You would get a lot of different opinions if you asked this question to different people. Oh yes, what is a "misterie?" Obviously you don't know a damn thing about photography, it wasn't just a source of information back then, it was also a HOBBY!
"Get the heck off your high horse. Every railfan has a different set of specific rail interests. The more pictures people take the more one might find something captured that he really finds interesting. I personally like signals, switch machines and interlocking towers. I'll bet your heros of old never took a single signal photo. Thank god the current crop of subtalkers post as many photos as they do, they occacionally take a picture of something of real use to me."
Are you kidding me? I've seen TONS of signal photos etc. from the three photographers mentioned. I guess your only source of seeing there pictures is the internet.
Read Jersey Mike's post again carefully. He was referring to digital SLRs costing multiple limbs and organs, not film SLRs. Film SLR cameras and basic 50mm, and, to a lesser extent 35mm, lenses are quite inexpensive, especially used ones.
I've been reading through this entire thread and your attitude towards the younger photographers is incredibly condescending. What did a young photographer do to you that was so offensive to your eyes that you now this chip on your shoulder? Or do you go around acting like you belong in a trolley museum for the fun of it? Whatever it is, calm down a little because you're acting like you've been bitten in the rear end multiple times by someone else's low quality pictures, and that's not the case.
For the record, I'm under 25 years of age and I use Kodachrome 64 in a manual focus Canon SLR, in case you're thinking of starting in on me here.
-Robert King
Yes, I noticed my mistke afterwards.
"I've been reading through this entire thread and your attitude towards the younger photographers is incredibly condescending. What did a young photographer do to you that was so offensive to your eyes that you now this chip on your shoulder? Or do you go around acting like you belong in a trolley museum for the fun of it? Whatever it is, calm down a little because you're acting like you've been bitten in the rear end multiple times by someone else's low quality pictures, and that's not the case."
Im really not very "angry" at all. I just think rail fan photography has gone WAY down hill since the 80's.
Brooklyn, you do come across quite bitter in some of your posts, whether that is intentional or not.
I feel everyone takes photos for their own pleasure. Everyone has different interests within the subway, etc to take photos of. Some things interest some people more than other people. And yes, some people are better than others, but I don't thimk anyone is wrong to post them if they choose to on their own websites. No one is forcing anyone to look at them, whether they are good or bad. Yes some are not as good as others, but I enjoy looking at them. Sometimes they are photos of a line or station I have not been at for a while, and like to see how the station looks now. My satisfaction is filled in that sense, even if it's not a "perfect" photo. Who cares. And I would never belittle someone if their photos are not "perfect". They don't have to be. And the younger (or newer - which can come in all ages) photographers have to learn, and they can only learn by posting them. People then can tactfully tell them what looks good, and what would look better if they did it differently next time. That's how people learn, by trial and error.
As for Kodachrome vs digital vs film, I take photos first because I enjoy it. Second because I enjoy sharing them. They do no good if only I see them. I don't want my photos to "die" with me. Maybe one day far in the future (I don't plan to die any time soon) some of them may provide future railfans with some historical view of a totally changed landscape. That's one of the points of photography, and why I like sharing them on the internet.
I was a Kodachrome user for many years. I started photographing about 15 years ago, and switched from prints to slides very early on. I took slides until about April of this year. Just before that, I bought a slide scanner, and many wouldn't really scan that well. So I have 10 years worth of great slides, many of which don't scan well, so I can't share them. They look great as slides, but unless you buy a very expensive slide scanner, it's not easy to scan slides well. I then switched to prints for about a month (which I hated), and now I went digital, with a 4mg camera that I am very happy with. The reason I did it because I do like the ease that digital photos can be put up on the internet, and you can snap away, a delete what you don't want easily.
Sure, people had to be more selective when using film/kodachrome, but I also like the way digital photos make it easier for trial and error, and definitely easier to share. Again, someone can have 1000's of "million dollar" slides, but they do no good sitting in a box, where no one can enjoy them, and one day "die" with the photographer when the heirs throw out all the "junk".
Anyway, I find the digital medium to reach far more people than physical prints. When was the last time you were able to costlessly duplicate slides and distribute them to hundreds of people for their own personal use.
*Others consisting entirely of the set of people that physically show up to railfan meetings where you are presenting.
That's my point exactly. And the image is soon forgotten after everyone leaves. Well, maybe not forgotten, but there is no way to talk about some scene unless they were at that meeting. For example, I remember a very cool slide that was shown at an LIRR-LIST meeting one Friday night. It was a slide of when the Metro-Mall freight siding was still in use for Macy's (Metro Mall at the Metro station on the M), and it showed two MP15's and a freight train entering the building (the siding went into the building). It wasn't a work of art, and it wasn't the "perfect" photo, but wow, was that a great historical shot.
Unfortunately it's probably sitting in someone's slide box somewhere. Think of how many other great historical "non-perfect", but historical slides are sitting in boces all over the place, probably never to see the light of day again.
I have not provided you any information on to what extent I provide photography. You seem to be working from the erronious assumption that if someone knows about photography they will also be some sort of elitest. If you wish to indulge your photographic hobby then I suggest you take your "issues" to PhotoTalk. Here on SUBtalk, photos are first and foremost a source of information.
I've seen TONS of signal photos etc. from the three photographers mentioned. I guess your only source of seeing there pictures is the internet.
Yes, why would I travel a hundred miles and spend $50 on a regular basis to physically transport myself to a nearby city to see some photos of signals? For that price I could just see the signals myself and take my own pictures. People can take the most wonderful photos ever captured on film, but they do no good if they are seen by no one. It is better that photo of even marginal quality be easily available to all rather than amazing photos be locked in a vault.
Look at the more recent stuff (not only here but on other web sites) and a lot of it is pure crap. Photos of maybe ten feet of one end of a subway car in a station, you can't even read signage or car numbers, etc. Very lousy lighting in outdoor shots. Etc. etc. etc.
It happens to be one of my favorites, specifically due to the lighting. I learned a heck of a lot about photography last year, all through experience. Yes, most of my 2001 photos were garbage, but as long as I've improved my technique and my eye, so what?
(In case you're curious, I think that's 4335, or if not, then 4335 is somewhere in that consist. IMO, it doesn't much matter.)
Did you see Chao-Hwa's critique of my photo? It was helpful. He pointed out what he liked but he also gave advice on how he thought it could have been better. Personally, I find the effect of the light on the platform to be quite interesting, so I don't regret including a lot of platform. In the unlikely event that I'm presented with a similar opportunity again, I might go for more sky and less platform -- I'll decide when the scene is in front of me.
Your response, OTOH, was not helpful at all. You obviously know a lot about photography, and you could help other photographers who have less experience build their skills. Instead, you sit back and ridicule. That's your choice, I suppose, but it doesn't make much sense if you continually bemoan the quality of today's subway photography.
Film stock is the icing on the cake. The cake itself is mostly composed of framing, angle and light. I am sure that if you actually bothered to give advice in those areas people would listen.
So underground shots I should be less platform more cieling?
Just like what I did in 1998,
Chaohwa
Why do you think it takes 3 weeks for me to put trip photos up? I spend a lot of time and effort in post production.
Cropped vs. uncropped ? It depends on the interest of the fan viewing the image. I like this image both for the vertical alignment changes it shows looking towards Broadway Junction, and for the views of the buildings adjacent to the el line. In this case, I hope you still have the uncropped image, because I love the "Refrigerator : Reid Furniture" ad painted on the side of the building near the image's left edge. It also helps to know there is a Reid Avenue nearby in Bushwick and Bed-Stuy.
Yeah, I keep all of the originals, in their original huge 4mgp size. I only fool with duplicates I make of them, and also shrink them to easily upload. As for my Broadway El photos, I purposely scoped wide on many of the photos I took because I wanted to get the neighborhood buildings, and sidewalks, as well as the trains in some shots. Personally, I like the original also, with the "landscape" all around the J. But, from a railfan perspective, the J Train is a bit small. The middle photo gives a good compromise between the two.
Here's another taken the same day, although the scratched and dirty window got the best of me in that case, I tried to find the same clean little spot I took the Reid ave photo, but unfortunately got a scratch and dirt in the way to blur it. (By the way, the railfan window Van Siclen photos weren't mine).
Here's the other one before Chauncey St:
Uncropped
Cropped
I would say that's a yes & no answer. I have a friend who sends me rather poor photographs, but I've seen some realy good stuff posted here & have saved copies since they are much better then I took at the same event with my 35mm camera. (althought some of mine aren't too bad either ... got honerable mention for one I took at an event at Branford & previously got 2nd prize).
I think it's that camera's are so cheep, incl. the price of the digitals. More folks are able to take shots, so with volumn you're going to get some bad with the good.
Please, do not let my comments offend you. I think there are a lot of people with good potential to be GREAT photographers, who post on this website. I just believe some of you use the wrong equipment to take the pictures...
You can take a great picture with any camera... End of story. I've seen photo contest won by people using one time use cameras; and then I've seen people lose with $3000 dollars worth of equipment. I just believe if you really want to get into photography (understanding many railfans don't) you should use the right equipment.
When it comes to digital cameras, I DO realize that they are great for spreading information, and perfect for some rail fanatic photography. I just want people to learn SOMETHING about photography; Lets face it, digital cameras do most of the work for you. Basically, if you take photos daily just try to learn something about exposure, composition, and lighting.
Learning photography with a fully manual camera really helps you to develop your photographic skills. And I understand that some people are trying to develop there skills by posting photos, and asking comments... Sorry, I should have been a little more delicate on that.
In closing, my apologies to anybody I may have offended, annoyed, etc., by my harsh comments.
Why do you think so? Seems to me there are more railfans than ever.
I may be wrong (I hope I'm wrong) but it seems to me young railfans are much less interested in detailed history and cars and lines and services they've never seen than when I was the same age. Fans like American Pig were much more common when I was in my teens.
I've wondered about this--I don't think the people are essentially different. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that rail transit was contracting in the '50s and '60s but its expanding now, so railfans canbe more future-looking.
I cannot verify Paul's statement, but he was not speaking about everyone.
Please tell all of us how you make that assumption because from my point of view, it is hardly dying. Not one day passes when I log on here and see everyone chattering about railfanning and the like. I especially enjoy Salaam's rants and his new Gold Line pictures, Brian (Choo Choo) and David Greenberger's fight over who's photos were better from the recent IRT MoD trip, SellkirkTMO's Arnine stories, heypaul's craziness and more. Four, count them, FOUR MoD trips are coming up soon! Who's not to complain?
Now, I've been reading all around here and seeing so many posts on the loss of the famed Railfan Window. Give me a break. If anything, I think RFW is more of an extra thing to the experience of railfanning rather than anything else. I think it all comes down to what defines as railfanning. I think it comes down to riding the rails and being able to enjoy the experienc on being a train, whether it be Light Rail, Trolley, Subway, Commuter Rail, etc. I mean, I think RFW is great but it's too exaggerated IMO. Besides, when you're looking out the window in the subway, it gets aggravating when people look over your shoulder and people think you're a terrorist. :-/ Well, that's all I think about it.
But as long as there's been front glass, there's been faces pressed against it. And last time I was in the city, didn't seem to have changed any. I wouldn't worry. The worst of it is the disappearance of the foamer glass ... most of us didn't take pictures anyway. At least I didn't ... it's a REAL treat to see the works of those who DID though!
--Mark
There seems to be a lot more young ones now than in the 70's or 80's though. Although there wasn't an internet or a "SubTalk" back then to communicate on a daily basis with other railfans. ALthough there still seems to be a lack of 30 something railfans that came out of the 70-80's era compared to other age groups even on SubTalk.
There are plenty young ones coming on board though.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
No...not me...never. When the R44/46/68's go I will be dancing a little jig.
For those of us born in the late 60's/early 70's: How many of you thought grafitti was a normal aspect of subway riding? When I was a little kid I would be shocked to see a grafitti free car and I though grafitti had been a normal thing since the subways opened decades before.
Heh, the funny thing is that I "expected" grafitti to be on the train and the stations. I remember around 1984, just before high school, riding on an R30. The exterior had the "normal" MTA scheme with grafitti. The interior was fresshly painted bright orange doors with beige walls (just before they started giving them the "redbird" scheme). I thought to myself, "Too bad a few days from now it will be covered with writing". And sure enough, a few days later it would be. I never believed back then that trians and stations could actually be grafitti-free.
you type in www.google.com into your browser.
Once you're there, put in the following keywords ...
mta nyc surplus
Taaaa-daaaaa! You'd be AMAZED at how many answers you can find with just a teensy tiny bit of effort. :)
I guess, having been a conductor and motorman in my distant past, my own "souvenir" desires were satisfied MARVELOUSLY by some friends who came by the gifts they gave me LEGALLY ... a set of keys and handles that ONLY fit arnines. All the tools I used to use on the job. That's all I ever wanted. Rollsigns just never did it for me - that was WORK, not fun. :)
The tools I can at least use when I go to Branford, or if the day comes that 825 at Kingston can roll under her own power ... it was funny though - when I did the arnine outing at Branford, there were plenty of people only too happy to twiddle the rollsigns - I was content taking power and going for a run. I always felt that the BEST foamer glass was off to the right from the one the kids gathered at. There is NOTHING more breathtaking than the signals shining off YOUR rail. MUCH brighter than the foamer glass lets you see. :)
Check it out here.
You forgot to mention waking 1689 up. I know you enjoyed that, too.:)
I'd still rather play conductor.
Gonna GET you for that, boy ... heh.
And this one, too. Note the green-green marker lights.:) That was the end with the finicky destination curtain.
Too bad I didn't get a shot of you mooing into 6688's mike.:)
David
WAT R U WARING?
(the correct answer of course is ALWAYS "a black teddy")
I know you are only 11 but haven't you figured out from all the responses that you can't just walk in and get a destination sign roll? Trust me, if that had been the case there would not have been any left (most of us here would have cleaned out the supply).
Be patient, aside from the signs available on the MTA Suprlus materials section (you can't buy them from the Museum yet), I am sure some arrangement will be made when the Museum opens.
In the meantime try ebay - No wait, on 2nd thought - don't try ebay. Unless your parents open the account and are willing to cover your bids you can't participate in auctions.
2) Always wondered this: why do some grade crossings keep the bells going after the gates are down, and others just stop once the gates lower fully?
And when I lived in brightwaters, the gates at Windsor Avenue came down, the flashers flashed, but the crossing didn't even have bells. That was in the late 1960's.
The four quadrant gtes do that. Extra safety measure. If a pedestrian who is blind or with very bad vision hears the bell, he/she knows not to cross. When the bell stops ringing, the coast is clear.
This is especially important for two or more tracks. A train passes through. You'd have trouble hearing the gates lift up, and you might not walk directly at where a gate is, and if a second train came through on the other track, you're squashed.
When I still lived in Merrick, we would kill a pedestrian a month at the LIRR crossing, bells or no bells. One man got off an east bound, and standing inside of the gate waited for it to clear and walked across the tracks right into the path of the westbound.
Ops... pity.
Elias
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Only if EAST NEW YORK cabin was remoted to BROOK. VAN tower used to control the yard, but it might have been closed and remoted to BROOK. You need to go down to BROOK and ask.
NOT IN SERVICE
LAST STOP
LISTEN FOR ANNOUNCEMENTS
The best advice is to just stand on a platform, watch some trains roll by, and take notes.
The "normal service" readings are predictable enough. I've seen the following G.O. readings on trains in service; undoubtedly, there are lots more.
E EUCLID AV
E 8 AV LCL
E FULTON ST LCL
F JAMAICA/179 ST
F via 8 AV
F QUEENS BL EXP
F JAMAICA/179 ST
F via CROSSTOWN
R LOWER EAST SIDE
R 2 AV
R 6 AV LCL
Hi 8 Av: We met on the Redbirds to the Rockways fantrip. Although its not as common as it used to be when the FL-9's were around ever so often a Genesis will leave GCT in diesel as opposed to electric mode. I was on one the other night.
Larry, Redbirdr33
That's only if any of the bosses could decipher his post with all the run on sentences and bad grammar.
So for the benefit of ol' "A 8AV FULTON EXP" (whom we all know his real name), let me put it in the simplest terms possible for him:
CONTINUE POSTS LIKE THIS AND YOU COULD BE FIRED, ESPECIALLY SINCE YOU ARE PROBABLY STILL ON PROBATION. IF YOU ARE OFF PROBATION, THEN YOU MAY NEVER SEE A PROMOTION AND YOU WILL BE A "CUSTODIAN MACHINE OPERATOR" FOR THE NEXT 35 YEARS.
Have you forgotten that MTA suits read these posts??? Would you rather be back flipping patties at McDonald's again?
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
the other was in the freight yard under the 6th Street Bridge.
Car 507? That's one of the original cars (delivered in 1992), I guess MTA didn't want to make a newer one available for filming.
I've looked through the Rockaway branch pics, but didn't find what
i'm looking for.
PS (to webmaster):
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_4722.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_4756.jpg
Route: HH ??? Looks like CC
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_5146.jpg
or E
DRJ
Breathtaking shot it is, but the clear dry winter atmosphere is responsible for such a great shot. Also figure in that it got dark early so all the lights were on in the buildings at time of sunset. Can't get a shot like that in this soupy, humid weather. That's why I hate summer for photography.
But what really makes the shot is the composition. He could have zoomed in on the skyline, but chose wide angle to include the piers on the Brooklyn waterfront. I guess the shot was taken from Brooklyn Heights. My hat's off to the photographer. GREAT PHOTO !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Regardless of the circumstances, that is one great picture to look at. Much props to you.
They sell plane tickets on computers now.
Your other photo's great too. I assume you were on final approach to Runway 31 at LGA.
I've also got some transit related pics from this BOS-LGA route but most of mine are out the right side of the plane. I'll look through them to see if any are fit for posting. If not, I'll try and get some as I make the trip up to Boston on the Delta Shuttle quote often.
I'd rather be on the train, but my company prefers the Delta Shuttle because it's cheaper when their discount is factored in.
It would look good in a calendar (hint, hint Bill).
You mean more violent than in the 1940s? Right.
Meanwhile, the conductor, Lescak, will be denied any form of medical coverage for injuries resulting from this "minor altercation" and possibly subsequently dismissed from the LIRR. Once he is relieved of his duties, Cliff Moskowitz will most likely file for damages.
You can most certainly bet that justice will be perverted to suit the needs of the rich in this case.
Regards,
Mark Valera
This is indeed what the parents will do. However, contrary to what you might watch on TV shows like "Law and Order," prosecutors do have guidelines and cannot offer plea bargains which reduce felonious assault to spitting on the sidewalk.
Someone I know from a well-to-do family was arrested for drug possession and dealing. His lawyers exploited the question of whether he had intent to distribute and were able to get him a reduced sentence of 8 months at Rikers Island. It was his first arrest.
In this case, the lawyers might try to, perhaps, claim that running over the conductor was not the defendant's intent. I don't see this being reduced to a misdemeanor that easily, even with an expensive lawyer.
The system does work pretty well, overall. As to worker's comp for the conductor - don't know there. You're being entirely too hasty (possibly from taking too many Subtalk posts as gospel, always a bad idea).
For all we know, he could be a troublesome black sheep of the family, who's given Mom and Dad endless headaches, and they'll simply leave him to his own devices.
Yes they do, Ron. I've seen it many times in the city. However that is a good thing many times because it guarantees a conviction for a weak case. The one thing that makes there be less of a chance for a plea bargain in this case is that the train crossed the border into Nassau which has a tougher DA's office than Queens.
By the way, a good example of someone getting off very easy on LI is Lizzie Grubman who did a few months in jail for intentionally running over a whole bunch of people. She should have been convicted of attempted murder.
Not that I don't understand that thought. They are just tubs on wheels after all. Pickups with LARGE cabs is how I see `em. Yet, "so many knuckleheads" act like they're driving cars. With the predicable results. People will believe anything. It's too damn bad that the station wagon went out of favor. At least it had a lower center of gravity and was basically still a car.
It is the nut behind the wheel that needs to be fixed.
My cat didn't like that either, but now he *is* the last of that line.
: ) Elias
Well yeah but hell, SUVs are seen as the "modern" station wagon. Even though they have nothing technologically-wise that is much different from any other automobile. They're just fatter and taller. One thing I don't understand is why anybody who doesn't have children would want one. Have all those thousands of advertisements made some folks think SUVs are "sexy"?
I agree with you, but it's possible the prosecution did not feel they could prove intent. So perhaps that case would have gone to acquittal had they tried it that way (I don't know that, only speculating)
And let's not forget that was also a racially biased incident, she call a bouncer "White Trash". Despite the bouncer being of same color as the perpertrator, this should be a bias crime, in addition to attempted murder.
He did the best he could.
Elias
----there's no people and its extremely unsecure
Ahh, but unless they are fortunate enough to live near the center of the old railroad towns, they have to drive home from the train station anyway.
It isn't just a city thing, though. Village officials in Rockville Centre recently closed down a bar right next to the train station that constantly served minors and was the source of numerous fights on the railroad platform as the drunks headed home.
CG
or do you mean theres only one conductor punching holes in tickets aside from the one train operator.
Silly goose! The gotta get the carsets back east for the morning rush hour.
Elias
Why does the cars have to married? Couldn't they just live together?
:0)
Will the perpetrator draw a lighter sentence if he ID's his buddies so Nassau police can lock them up?
he'll be taking LIRR for quite a while, if he's lucky
And they should IMPOUND that nice expensive car as evidence!
he wont find employment with his felony except in some warehouse which he would need a vehicle to get to in the first place
Yep, assaulting a conductor is now like assaulting a police officer
His punishment will depend on the whole picture a judge sees (and depending on whether he does a plea bargain or insists on a trial).
He probably wont be seeing any jail time, since his parents have the money for some fancy high paid lawyers. Unfortunately, the rich seem to be able to get above the law.
The thug lives on Estate Dr in East Hills, and I know that area very well. Most homes there go for 1000k and up.
There's no question that someone with a full bank account will be able to afford legal resources that the poor zhlobs can't get. And, yes, that will certainly be a factor in their eventual fate. Is this a fault of the US justice system? Yes. Is this a good reason to fill yourself with deep hatred and resentment for anyone who lives in a bigger house, or drives a fancier car? No, not for me it isn't.
If you've been so co-opted, politically, by the preaching of class warfare and exploitation, then you only have my pity, for unless you're the richest man in the world, there will always be someone that you will have to hate, and hate, envy, and jealousy will fill and consume your life, sooner or later. That's not good. My life, as anyone else's, has had its ups and downs. But when I had my downs, and things were going a bit rough there, I never found it necessary to hate my fellow human being, even if he or she has more money than me.
Someone having more money was never a good reason for me to hate them. If it is for you, or for anyone else, than you have my pity.
So, am I supposed to work myself into a lather each time I come across some rich snob, then?
Nope, and their obnoxious driving habits are not going to get my goat either. I'll slow down, and try not to get into an accident. And that's going to be the end of me paying any attention to them.
Whether it's because someone's rich, or someone's a rich snob, neither appeal to me as a good reason to have an obsessive compulsion for hatred towards such a person.
Try not to let others' bad habits, wealth, or social status, become an object of your negative emotions. You'll find that your outlook on life will dramatically improve.
I have thought about that, of course, that is why I said they ought to impound the car as evidence. He can put off the trial as long as he likes, but the car will wait in the evidence room. The License Plates, are of course also evidence, so he will have to continue to pay his insurance premiums as well as his car payments.
It can work the otherway, sometimes the rich will hang one of their own out to dry just to show that they are not biased.
Let us hope.
Elias
Too bad she can't trade one of those donickers for some acting ability.
No it isn't. I have 4 bathrooms in the house. I never have to wait to be able to use one.
:0)
Then you're doing something wrong, because every building in Nassau is in the site.
Naturally, I immediately sought out the house of everyone I know in Nassau. Seems one friend who swore he'd never buy an SUV DID. (Oops, let's not start THAT again!) Given the controversy surrounding taking photographs on transit property, it seems strange that the county would authorize photographing private houses in this manner.
Like John, I found some legitimate addresses that went unrecognized. But that also happens with Mapquest, Expedia, the aforementioned phone directories, etc.
One thing that annoys me to no end is the way some theatres are now running MTV-like "programs" in the period leading up to the previews. I prefer to listen to the murmers of the arriving patrons than some glitzy LOUD mish mosh of images and sounds they play. I can imagine how that development occured:
"Say, looking at this spreadsheet here, I've determined that there is some empty time that hasn't been exploited yet! Why, they're just sitting there! Let's fill that slot up with some marketing!!"
I don't blame movie theatres wanting to boost income per say. But must it be SO damn garish about it?
All of the good current theaters have stadium-style seating, which is better than any other theater innovation since the talkie.
A multiplex also allows you to sneak into multiple movies. It increases exposure for the less popular movies. The theater doesn't lose anything if the seat would otherwise be empty.
Vending machines allow children to buy tickets to R-rated movies. In addition, multiple movies in one theater allow children to buy tickets to PG-rated movies and attend the desired R movie instead, the theater loses nothing, so it isn't a crime against another person, and there is no law regarding the rating system (it's entirely voluntary) so there is no crime against the government.
One should always go to the movies in the winter: Nobody looks at you funny when you come in wearing a big coat.
Peace,
ANDEE
He said there were times when cars would want to enter filled with a bunch of kids in the back seat, which was okay, but the rear bumper was almost scrapping the ground. Filled up back seats were okay but trunks were a no-no. He would have an assistant stand in front of the car to prevent it from moving. He would start questioning the driver if he had anyone in the trunk.
The answer would first be "NO!" He would keep questioning the driver, especially if it was a hot sunny day. After a few minutes you'd hear furious banging coming from the trunk. When the driver would have to get out to investigate, two or three kids would pop out of the trunk BUSTED !
Did they show movies at the drive in on hot sunny days?
WOW
Elias
Jersey City isn't that far.
And to keep it on topic, NJ Transit runs just under two blocks away!
--Mark
The piscture of our former house in Merrick is POSTED BACKWARDS...
The the Egale that dad put above the garage is still there, and that was 15 years ago or more.
: ) Elias
CG
Sure.... you should see what the unaffordable kind is like : )
If you want cheap insurance, come on out to North Dakota.
: ) Elias
They didn't show evidence of a knife or gun and ran. Clearly they wanted a safe getaway knowing their stop was next, (unless the six teens had other vehicles, but I wont speculate what wasn't said)
There's still no one who can decide what to do in a situation like that but him. Monday morning quarterbacking is cheap.
It's not all that uncommon for a person caught up in a combative situation to do things that, in retrospect, they'd never consider doing. It's probably some sort of adrenaline rush that results in a temporary burst of courage. In this situation, the conductor is quite lucky.
CG
Too bad about that.
Elias
Using mace or pepper spray in a confined space like a train car probably isn't such a good idea. In addition, the value of so-called "defense sprays" is usually overstated.
For decades, the police have advised people to allow themsevles to be raped, robbed, and burgled rather than risk becomming a victim of even worse violence, and perhaps even killed. This is probably the correct advice of a given individual in a given incident.
As a consequence, however, criminals have come to understand that if the are or appear threatening enough the odds of resistance are low. This makes crime "safer," and leads to more of it. Society is worse off.
If, for example, every woman fought against or tried to escape from a potential rapist, potential rapists would know that a sexual assault would provide zero chance of orgasm and a substatial chance of jail time, perhaps even for murder. The same would be true of those after money, or just the pleasure of abusing people. Some deaths would occur that might not otherwise occur. On the other hand, in the long run, crime would decline.
The same may be said of confronting and criticizing those engaging in more minor offenses, like littering, holding or blocking the subway doors, etc. People refrain from confronting the ill behaved, for fear than the confrontation may turn violent and a weapon may become involved. The result is garbage in the streets and vandalized common property.
In this case, what the conductor did was stupid from a personal point of view, but possibly a great benefit to society -- especially given the publicity. The riff raff will think twice.
Not to open a can of worms or anything, but consider the two-year anniversary that's one month away. The fact that four or five lightly armed hijackers could take over entire airplanes is, in retrospect, ludicrous. Each hijacker was outnumbered at least six to one (just like the LIRR conductor), and that's counting only those passengers physically most able to resist, which I've somewhat arbitrarily defined as males between the ages of 16 and 55. You could give Mike Tyson or Frank Shamrock a box cutter, match him up against six adult men fighting for their lives, and he won't last long. Yet the passengers did not resist. We'll never know why, but it's entirely likely that it was for reasons similar to those you described above.
One proviso with respect to ordinary street crime, however, is that criminals seek easy targets. A man who looks like he can handle himself is not likely to be targeted unless the attacker is armed and/or part of a group.
In this case, what the conductor did was stupid from a personal point of view, but possibly a great benefit to society -- especially given the publicity. The riff raff will think twice.
As I mentioned before, the conductor probably was on an adrenaline rush when he pursued the attackers into the lot to get the license number. If he'd thought rationally, he most likely wouldn't have done this.
The foaming variety stays where you put it: on the face and under the eyeglasses of the perpetrator, and it also stains the skin and clothing for later identification.
Elias
I was 19, paying a fortune for basic liability and would never have abused the privelage of driving by putting myself in jail like those teens.
yes, spoiled rich kids are bad alcoholics, everytime I meet one they offer me a beer,....Where else do you find these people
So you're defending somebody's privilege to commit violence because of a spoken insult? That's not standing up for anything - that's just being a criminal.
That has to be one of the stupidest posts on Subtalk.
If somebody wants to slug me because I don't like SUVs or their owners' attitudes (hypothetically) then fine - they can go to jail and I can sue them for damages, and they would deserve it.
Sure you could. But first it might hurt.
That not withstanding, I agree that the SubTalk stupidity quotient is on the rise tonight...
CG
But you said a lot more than that.
You can't judge all by the actions of a few. Even if they are rich.
Or after a Rangers game.
CG
:0)
CG
You never see anything like that after the Salute to Israel Parade!!*
*And before anyone takes offense, I'm just being a wiseass!! In reality my in-laws are Irish and they are great and I love them!!!
Take it easy John, I own a mid sized SUV. Does make make me a "certain kind of person " ?
The point is a crime was committed by some spoiled north shore snots who are probably hiding behind the pant legs of their lawyers. They made the choice to HARASS the couple and ASSAULT the trainman. The SUV didn't make these choices. Next time, preview before you post.
Bill "Newkirk"
You are completely right. But SUV's are more dangerous to cars, and when a drunk is behind the wheel it is even more dangerous.
There are responsible SUV drivers like yourself, but unfortunately some, drive recklessly and pose a very big threat to cars.
As one article stated (which you can find at http://www.net-monster.com/blather_suvs_part1.html)For a car-car collision (to the driver's side), the driver of the struck car is 6.6 times more likely to die than the driver of the striking car. But when the striking vehicle is an SUV, that ratio rises to 30:1.
So when someone who is drunk (and a hazard already to other drivers) gets behind the wheel of an SUV, those pose more than 20 times the likelyhood of killing the driver in the other car, than if the drunk was driving a car.
Sobering, isnt it?
You're veering off topic, John. Whether the punks left the scene in an SUV or a Honda Civic means nothing. They assaulted a LIRR employee and harrassed two riders. I don't know what SUV's with drunk drivers has to do with drunken punks assaulting and harassing people. Try to stay focused.
Bill "Newkirk"
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Let's not get too dramatic about this. What happened was regrettable, but fortunately it turned out okay for the conductor and the couple that was attacked, no serious injuries. It could have been far worse.
Going to the ground can be an effective way of dealing with a single attacker, but is very dangerous in a multiple-attacker scenario no matter how good one's groundfighting skills may be.
Jimmy
Jimmy, according to the Newsday article: "Lescak was treated and released for bruises and a swollen hand and knee...", so it was minor.
It seems that the couple had asked the rowdy group to quiet down. That can be tricky. What would you do in this situation? Grin and bear it? Move to another car? Alert the train crew?
What lessons are there to be learned by the MTA and the people immediately involved?
I honestly don't know if Transit Police ride late night subway trains anymore. What about having LIRR police ride some late night weekend trains to get the message out that disruptive behavior won't be tolerated?
Here's the link to the updated article with the conductor's description of the incident
As far as I know, there's no prohibition against intoxicated persons riding the train. In a way that makes sense, as a drunk on the train is immeasurably preferable to a drunk driving a car. As far as loud and/or disorderly behavoir is concerned, based on my rather limited experience (I seldom ride after evening rush hour), the conductors seem fairly tolerant so long as the rowdy passengers aren't directly harrassing other riders.
It seems that the couple had asked the rowdy group to quiet down. That can be tricky. What would you do in this situation? Grin and bear it? Move to another car? Alert the train crew?
It all depends on the circumstances. It's easy to say that the couple acted really stupid when they attempted to confront a group of six loud drunks. On the other hand, the group might have been raucous but otherwise harmless-seeming, so asking them to pipe down may have seemed reasonable under the circumstances.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Don't have AIM, eh? Download it free here at www.aim.com!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Specifically the R-110B consisted of 3 car sets in a 9-car train. Not only was there no cab in the exact middle (couldn't be) the conductor could only between cars 3 and 4 or 6 and 7. I think the latter was the case.
Unlikely, yes.
David
I understand Friday night in summer is especially bad, but I was amazed at how far out the suburbs go -- and how long it takes to get there. East Side Access will help folks out there who live near the train and work there, but not folks who both live and work there. Glad I live in a place with transit.
Perhaps suburbanites can start working at home.
Spreading suburbanization is why the LIRR has to improve its service east of Ronkonkoma. But no, the Greenport schedule is barely suitable for most commuters.
Oh pardon me, I-94 is wide open, no traffic at all by NY standards, and a 75 mph speed limit. I got 3 square miles in my own back yard.
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, paved roads are about 20 miles apart.
But the view is ... a er *differeent*
: ) Elias
Long Island roads between city the East River and Riverhead - multiple paralel routes between North and South as well as East and West. This is not typical of Connecticut or New Jersey.
In North Jersey, the main east west highways are are 80 and 78. There is a paralell to 80 in form of 46. But it's an impractical paralell in that it imediately gets hosed when 80 goes bad. 78 really doesn't have a major alternate. As for north-south in Jersey The Parkway and the Tpk (and 287 for a stretch) are pretty much all there is. They all tend to go bad together and again there really aren't much in the way of alternatives.
In Connecticut, east-west roads are plenty congested in the form of I95, the Merit Pkwy, route 1 and 84. North South roads are just plain rotten in form of 7, 8, 25 and 91. These roads for the most part tend to slow to a crawl during rush hour and sometimes overnight during construction. They hose each other up and seems to be no way to get around to alternates.
Considering the above, Long Island has many alternatives to roads between Riverhead and the East River. If the LIE goes down, possible alternates include (depending where you are on the Island):
Northern State (Grand Central)
Southern State
Jericho Tpk
Old Country Road
25A/Norhtern Blvd.
Hillside Avenue
109
Queens Blvd.
Sunrise Highway
Montauk Highway
North-south routes are numerous and include from West to East:
BQE
Van Wyck
Interboro (now Jackie Robinson)
Clearview
Cross Island
Meadowbrook
Wantaugh
106/107
135
Bethpage Pkwy
110
Deer Park Ave
111
112
William Floyd
(and many more the list is getting long)
Most of the above are not that all far from each other and can be put to especially good use in the event of accidents or construction problems.
So overall, I disagree that Long Island is the worst of all the NY Metro areas to deal with in congestion. Actually, it has better alternative road networking than most of the metro area.
It's called US 22.
Particularly in Nassau, the road system is pretty much a grid -- just without numbered streets and avenues. If you have a compass in your car, you should never have to suffer highway traffic. The lack of major physical features (wide rivers, mountains) makes alternate routing on LI a breeze.
Having experienced suburban life on both LI and in NJ, I'll take Long Island's traffic any day.
CG
It now runs from Exit 64 (CR 112), with some portions existing farther east.
I don't really consider the section to the south of the Expressway and east of Exit 64 to the new Exit 66 as being a service road. I suppose it technically is, but it just seems different.
That new service road running to Exit 66 is weird ... not too much along it and little traffic, by Long Island standards that is. I also like the ones between 63 and 64, very handy for me at times.
I say Light Rail or MAGlev From Riverhead West running Above The LIE/42nd Street To Grand Central then South On Park Avenue To 34th Street Then West To Penn Station. With Stops At William Floyd Parkway Sc 46, NY 112, NY 111, NY 110, Ny 106-107, Lakeville Road, 188th Street, Queens Blvd/Woodhaven Blvd, Greenpoint Avenue, Grand Central.
WRONG. Robert Moses was just a product of his time. If there had been no Robert Moses, somebody else would have just enabled the same sprawl. This is the pattern that had been developing all across America in the postwar period. It was not caused by Robert Moses. RM is a convenient modern scapegoat.
Heck, before the railroads came most folks who could afford it had horses. You can see how a motorized version of a horse would have an appeal. So the concept of privately-owned "vehicles" is nothing new. And the coming of age of millions of war weary red blooded American men was a social force that couldn't be ignored. Most of the guys wanted to get cars. Hence, the next 50 years appeared as they did. The walkable city as civic norm was hard pressed to survive. But, no trends trend forever. Othere pressures come up, different solutions appear. Hence, the resurgence of rail mass transit systems in all parts of the country. Look ahead 50 years.
And you base this on what? Boston is much less populous than New York. Its highway converage is roughly proportional to the size and density of the area.
And it's currently in the midst of the biggest urban highway project in history.
Speaking of Boston, recent articles (including "The Terrible T,") make you grateful for New York City Transit. According to the series, Boston Transit is the equivalent of New York City's public schools.
The political power of suburban Republicans means that the funding has gone to commuter rail expansions, not maintaining and improving the city system. And the political power of public employee unions in the Democratic Party has led to featherbedding, absenteeism, sloth, and even shorter careers before pensions than NYCT. This "you will pretend to work and we will pretend to fund you" deal is exactly the same as NYCs Board of Education.
In New York, at least, city transit RIDERS have been given some consideration, although we'll see what the next contract brings and whether or not we at least get the Stubway to go with East Side Access.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd have to scale things out before drawing that conclusion. Remember how small the City of Boston is relative to its region -- it's really the equivalent of Manhttan, not NYC. Some of those commuter rail rides may be the equivalent of subway rides here.
But the chart missed one thing. Boston commuter rail monthly passes INCLUDE unlimited use of all subways, buses, trackless trolleys, and streetcars. That makes it an INCREDIBLE bargain.
Plus, you get $75 off your car insurance premium if you send 11 of 12 passes per year to your insurance agent.
But wait! There's more! All passholders can take a guest for FREE on Sundays on any route for which their pass is valid.
To answer the original question, MBTA Commuter Rail routes can be up to 85 miles long.
The MTA has the same deal here, although fares are higher. Judging by the description of the system, however, perhaps the MBTA needs higher fares to improve maintenance. As in New York, I think you need to keep up the system even if it means higher fares.
>>And you base this on what? Boston is much less populous than New York. Its highway converage is roughly proportional to the size and density of the area<<
Hmm, for all the highways build in NYC which ones had nothing to do with Robert Moses? The FDR drive.... How many were actually built, or proposed to be built after he lost his power? None.
>>And you base this on what? Boston is much less populous than New York. Its highway converage is roughly proportional to the size and density of the area<<
Hmm, for all the highways built in NYC which ones had nothing to do with Robert Moses? The FDR drive.... How many were actually built, or proposed to be built after he lost his power? None.
>>And you base this on what? Boston is much less populous than New York. Its highway converage is roughly proportional to the size and density of the area<<
Hmm, for all the highways built in NYC which ones had nothing to do with Robert Moses? The FDR drive.... How many were actually built, or proposed to be built after he lost his power? None.
When I reached GCT I made some inquires and found out that the SPVs had been pressed into service due to a sudden car shortage to make one run, No 842. THis was the last time to my knowledge that these cars ever ran under their own power on Metro-North.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Jimmy
Metro-North has reciprocal agreements with Amtrak. If one of their trains break down we either send out an engine to bring him in or carry the passengers on one of our trains. Likewise when one of ours shorts out Amtrak picks up our people. Besides once he's south of Poughkeepsie he's on our railroad. This situation doesn't happen very much anymore but was quite common earlier in the 90's.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Jimmy
A trip around the loop takes about 10 minutes. There are 9 minutes between the first Brown Line train at Washington/Wells and when it reaches the Clark/Lake station. If you estimate another minute or so for the other stretches, that's 10 minutes. For the last station before the Loop (Merchandise Mart), the first Brown Line train takes 13 minutes from arrive to circle the Loop and return to it. But it's across the river from the Loop, so there's some extra time there getting to the Loop.
I'm going to skip calculating that time into the schedules and just use the Clark/Lake timetables as I did to begin with to calculate total trains per hour. In theory, if I added in trip times within the loop, the load numbers could be slightly different but, as I said, I'm going to discount them for now.
Green northbound: enters outside track at 12
Green southbound: exits inside track at 12
Green westbound: exits outside track at 18
Green eastbound: enters inside track at 18
Orange: enters/exits inside track at 12
Brown: enters/exits outside track at 18
Purple: enters/exits inside track at 18
Tower 18 transfers (in or out of loop)
Brown Line inbound: 19
Brown Line outbound: 19
Purple Line inbound: 6
Purple Line outbound 6
Green Line inbound: 8
Green Line outbound: 8
Tower 18 pass-bys (just turning):
Orange Line: 8
Tower 12 transfers (in or out of loop)
Orange Line inbound: 10
Orange Line outbound: 10
Green Line inbound: 8
Green Line outbound: 8
Tower 12 pass-bys (just turning):
Purple Line: 6
Brown Line: 19
Tower 18 trains: 74 (66 enter/exit, 8 turns) in the rush hour
Tower 12 trains: 61 (36 enter/exit, 25 turns) in the rush hour
So, each tower deals with more than one train per minute during the rush hour. 18 has four approaches, so averaging 18 1/2 trains per appraoch for the rush hour, 12 only has three approaches, so averages 20 1/3 trains per approach for the rush hour. I don't know what the CTA considers to be the maximum load for these towers.
Review: Tower 18 is the NW corner, Tower 12 is the SE corner. Clicking on the link takes you to the Chicago-L.org site, not affiliated with the CTA but a treasure-trove of Chicago "L" information.
CTA train schedules and map for every station.
1] Frankford Transportation Center [the new one]- SEPTA
2] Pentagon Metro Station [both versions]- WMATA
3] 69th st Terminal - SEPTA
4] Silver Spring Metro Station - WMATA
5] Parsons-Archer Station - NYCT
6] Hempstead Terminal - LIB-LIRR
7] Olney Terminal - SEPTA
8] Newark Penn Station - NJT-PATH
9] Journal Square - NJT-PATH
10] St George Ferry Terminal - NYCT
Although not a terminal for the subway trains, 74th/Broadway on the 7 train with the bus terminal underneath is a favorite of mine—the one where you connect with the Q33 bus to LGA.
Least favorite? Has to be Indianapolis Union Station—the intercity bus service is quite extensive, but the rail terminal is a shadow of its former self, what with having a mere two tracks left out of eighteen, plus meager Amtrak service (the Cardinal stopping there at 1 am and 4 am, what a waste especially in light of daytime rail service to/from Chicago having such potential). >:-(
$72 rountrip Chicago-KC; $64 with AAA card. Hopefully there will be sufficient resraurant car seating for lunch and dinner available after First Class passengers have signed up.
1) College Avenue/5th Street NW Corner Tempe Az
Valley Metro Rail Main Line, Tempe Flash, Red Line
Yellow Line/1, 30, 44, 56, 62, 65, 66, 72, 76, 81
Currently
2) Central Station Phoenix, Az
Valley Metro Rail Main Line (2006), Red, Blue Lines, Valley Metro Rapid (Bus)
0, 3, 7, 7 Limted, 8, 10, 12, 15
In the future though, it'd probably be the downtown manhatten station, which wud combine NJT, MNRR, LIRR, 9 NYC subway lines, PATH, and about 6 bus lines. Sound good?
http://salaamallah.tripod.com//sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/redbirdtripod1.jpg
Good shot!
wayne
The Tube rolling stock is non-AC, right? If so, why is that?
That's the subsurface line trains, and new ones recently ordered will have a/c. The deep tube trains are *much* smaller than any NY subway trains - and they are a tight fit in the single-track tumnnels. Installing a/c would take up valuable space in the trains, and there is an issue of dispersing the heat in those tunnels too, and in the deep stations. The website also says that the extra electricity consumption would be an issue too. See: http://tube.tfl.gov.uk/content/getting_around/hot.asp
What it can potentially do the infrastructure is also a major concern. I've seen first hand what excessive heat for extended periods can do. I was on a NJT/MetroNorth train a few years ago that derailed on a hot summer day about a half-mile south of the Harriman, NY station on the Port Jervis line. The cause was a rail that buckled from the heat. Fortunately, there were no injuries as the train had begun to slow for the station stop.
wayne
Return is District line to Blackfiars for the 1752 "put in" - empties from Selhurst Depot) to Bedford - I get off at St Albans.By 1730 even the shallow lines are baking hot and the servie is patchy and as a result very overcrowded with hot and tired commuters and a few tourists.There was virtually no Circle line today due to staff shortages and as ever gaps of more than 5 mins in the eastbound District.Not pleasant at all - but we generally only suffer for a few days - the week long heat is exceptional - and really only a problem in the pm period.
I am sorry, however the Redbirds are just steel, rusty steel at that. Everything has a finite lifespan, and the redbirds have had a nice run, but they're getting old, and it's not economical to keep them around. We may go out of our way to keep people around well into their twilight years, however those are people, mostly sentient organic creatures, not subway cars, steel creations who live and die on whether they provide service without too high a cost.
Someday soon we'll all be bemoaning the loss of the R-62s in the face of the R-212s from Siemens, decrying their largely composite construction, but that's life.
Let us "engineers" make something new that will last longer and we'll
earn our pay! The new cars are an example of technology development
and it will take some time getting the normal "kinks" out.
Philly's M-4 cars are running fairly well, and that's all new technology.
Next Stop - 56th St, for the "G" and the "31"
Chuck Greene
At the risk of using an old cliche - Speak for yourself John.
I never thought the Redbirds would be around forever. As with my favorite LoVs, their time was limited. I was am suprised they lasted this long considering the haphazard care they were getting.
Better to remember them as they were, in personal memory and in various photos and videos that have been done.
The cars we love represent a part of our lives -- a part of our own personal history -- and that is why it is often difficult to let go. Just think, some day future subtalkers may even mourn the passing of the R142s, R143s, and even the R160s.
I guess we need to separate the things that are really important to us and the things that simply remind us of other things we recall. Of course, they can be both.
Consider that, barring some fit of anti-historic feeling there will be plenty of redbords to look at for the foreseeable future. The Transit Museum now seems to save at least one of every type, and let's be honest, a lot of the redbirds are not that different from each other.
I'm not as big as many railfans on fantrips and museums, but at least I can ride an old el car at Branford and listen to the sounds of controllers and equipment from the early days of electric--an experience you can't quite get from pictures or drawings or even (as a complete experience) from recorded audio.
To say it again, we'll be able to worship redbird suvivors indefinitely. I'll never know what it was actually like to be in a BMT Bluebird, or a 1000 convertible L car, never be able to tell if a Multi was as fast as I remember it, and on, and on...
If we want to rememorialize rebirds, maybe we can convince Starkist to design a memorial tuna can in redbird red...;-)
That's a very creative idea. I like it.
"A few railbuffs were discussing the use of old "Redbird" New York City subway cars as artificial reefs. One of us suggested that perhaps Starkist Tuna could use the old cars, long a symbol of transportation in New York, as a marketing tool.
Supposing that, in the New York market, you were to market Starkist Tuna in a can made to at least somewhat resemble a classic "Redbird" subway car with Charlie the Tuna smiling from a window. If that were linked to a set of cheap give-a-way toys or coupons, you might have a neat sales tool there. These types of old carbon-steel cars are disappearing from the subway, and have long held an attraction for New Yorkers.
Another promotion might involve a scheme similar to the above, combined with subway ads and free admission to the New York City Transit Museum, which is reopening soon after an overhaul.
What do you think?"
They have my address. I'll let you know.
I wonder how many divorces are going to occur because the only room in a railfan's house not filled with memorabilia is going to be filled with tuna cans?
Please do not remind me about car #2501 on the N/B D train when I made some tuna sandwiches on three bagels. That was my breakfast during the non-stop NY Times Ultimate Ride we did last month.
Amazing no Police Officer came aboard and gave me a summons for me taking up more than one seat. (LOL) Just kidding.
Peace,
ANDEE
I HATE Charlie's new voice. The old one was far, far better.
Peace,
ANDEE
Borden, a big dairy-products company that used Elsie as its spokescow, acquired Elmer's Glue.
White glue is a dairy product. You can make it yourself in your kitchen.
Peace,
ANDEE
wayne
In other words, when their time comes, thwy will simply met the scrappers torch.
Elias
Look at photos of sunken PA cars and you'll see.
You should do some reading about shipwrecks and reefs and marine life before you post. There are many good on-line sources. Also, being in Los Angeles, I believe there is an excellent institute at UCLA which studies oceanography. And UCLA is very accessible to you via buses on Wilshire, Santa Monica Blvd. the 405 and from the ocean.
Read, learn, then post.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
But I will agree with you that dumping AOL is the best course of action.
I can also purchase a 3rd Generation PDA with phone (such as Treo or Toshiba PDA device) and use my existing phone plan (like Sprint PCS) to include internet access. I hope to achieve this so that I can post on Subtalk/Bustalk anytime without the need for a computer.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I left AOL so I could CHOOSE what e-mail client I use. I use Outlook 2002 now.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Chat starts at about 8:00 pm, See Ya Tonight!!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/030810/airlines_amtrak_1.html
Amtrak had a little over 50% of the total NY-WAS travel market prior to the 9/11 disaster at WTC. Then the % went to over 65% of the market.
If its back to 50%, Amtrak is still the number 1 carrier, overall, and commuter rail has a little slice, too.
But Amtrak does need to fix the Acelas and take its on-time percentage up a level.
A big company can underprice in some highly competitive markets to drive out the competition.
A small company that underprices in a significant market just goes out of business.
AirTran is doing well financially and hasn't gotten any special government assistance.
I'm not sure if it's as unionized as other carriers. Not that it necessarily would matter - Southwest Airlines is by far the most successful airline in the United States (if not the world), yet it's just as unionized as any of the full-fare carriers.
Nt all airlines got bail-out money.
AirTran has some great airplanes - brand new 717s with the Rolls Royce-BMW engines. They are a long way from when they, as Valujet, allowed a disastrous crash to happen because of unsafely carried hazardous cargo.
I don't think they're trying to compete with Amtrak anyway. Those trips -- particularly Washington/Boston aren't really viable business train trips anyway. They're more interested in competing with Southwest and US Air.
CG
Oh, I disagree strongly. I think the airlines see the danger of Amtrak approaching delivery of a 3 hour or less BOS-WAS trip time and also cleaning their clocks on trips to Providence RI (BOS-Providence is very much the train's to lose and the plane's to win, and BOS-NYC still is train country) and Amtrak is very much in their sights.
Airlines have no sights on markets like Boston to Providence. There isn't a single airline that flys that route. In fact Southwest flies into Providence, but advertises it as Boston.
The airlines have long since given up intermediate travel between NYC and Boston to trains, busses and cars.
Current airline schedules show:
0 flights per day from LGA or JFK to Hartford/Springfield.
5 flights per day from LGA to Providence, none from JFK. Note that these are 30 seaters -- probably more for US Air connecting traffic than for NY origin/destination.
CG
Wrong again. Did you forget that Acela does it in 4 hours? When current ROW work, which is ongoing, is done a 3.5 hour schedule will be possible immediately , and then bringing that down to 3 hours or less will be in range.
CG
CG
:0)
Sort of. Southwest's schedule says Providence, not Providence/Boston or something like that, but it does note that the airport is convenient to Boston (as it does with Manchester too). Whether that constitutes advertising it as Boston is a debatable point.
Delta Shuttle from BOS to LGA and JFK:
Flight time: 1 hr. 7 mins. Fare: $455 RT.
Delta from BOS to EWr:
Flight time: 1 hr. 15 mins. Fare: $422 RT.
Acela Express from BOS to NYP:
Transit time: 3 hrs. 27 mins. Fare: $184 RT.
All itineraries were based on very similar times on the same dates of departure and return this month, while AirTran reported all flights full or no flights available on the dates I researched with above.
I also researched the Acela fare from BOS to NYP OW on Aug 14 and it came out to be $92. I did the same fare check for this Saturday and the fare is $85. Quite the opposite for the airlines, where the cheapest fares are during the week and not on the weekends.
For the railroad there is a double positive. Is this a normal fare streak for the Acela or is it to attract more customers?
On the weekends, the fare can get as low as $120 round-trip.
Amtrak has lowered fares to be below the airlines in order to maintain the customer base between NY and Boston that came on when Acela Express was introduced. They've had trouble keeping to the advertised schedule and this is their way of trying to keep customers until they can get things straightened out.
CG
Every once in a while I do swear at them in private and then send a letter tellling them to fix up Acela. I do ask my elected officials to help.
In what's presumably an attempt to regain business lost to SARS, now that the epidemic seems to have passed, Cathay Pacific Airlines has been offering $500 round-trips between New York and Hong Kong.
I remember a time when the IRT had no A/C but a ceiling fan and nothing more. The windows were all down with the front and rear cars doors wide open. The noise was horrendous. It was horrible.
All I have to say is the following.
The Brits better get moving on the A/C issue. Global warming is HERE and temperatures of 90 degrees or more will be the norm. You can blame the auto for this. As a result, there is no way you are going to have people entering those tubs when the temperature reaches 100+ degrees. The cost of upgrading all those cars will more than likely double the fare within 10 years. Many of the older cars cannot be fitted for A/C so they better get ready to buy new cars. If they don't install A/C, more people will start driving or riding the bus. From what I understand, most buses don't have A/C either! This has got to change.
It's just amazing how we take simple things as A/C for granted. We have a better system folks.
Moreover...many Europeans don't believe in deodorant....
Seriously. There better be changes fast because things are only going to get worse as global warming heats up the planet.
From what I understand, the rails in London are now owned by privatly. If this is the case, I can assure you there won't be any changes to the current situation. Pretty sad if you ask me.
I doubt there will ever be a/c on the Underground. Because of fuel costs, higher than they are here, it would be too onerous an expense, in my opinion.
Not everyone here will agree with you on that one!
--Mark
--Mark <<<<
You mean there we people who actually enjoyed that racket? It was scary. This was during the 70's when ridership actually declined and the poor conditions of the cars had a lot to do with this.
Steve.
Personally, I loved it and it wasn't a racket. It was Subway "music.
Back in 1984-85 I was riding the #1 from WTC to 231st Street every day in the summer. With service unreliable, the trains that did run were packed, and I was pressed up against my fellow passengers sharing body heat and sweat all the way uptown.
The noise, however, was worse. Without the windows open we couldn't breath. With the windows open the racket was actually painful.
Relief came at Dykman, when the noise no longer bounced back off the tunnel walls, and whatever outside air there was came through the windows.
I was in a tee shirt and jeans. Most of the people around me were in business suits. What a way to start a day at the office!
The LURS's 'UndergrounD News' (Jan93) says:
"London Underground's first air-conditioned car was recently completed and demonstrated to the LU board, who are reported to have been very pleased with the results. The equipment is a prototype system, fitted to a C Stock car (6513) but, because of its late delivery, it is not expected to enter service before next summer."
6513 lost its A/C equipment in 1994.
I remember going on an offical visit in 1992 to see C Stock being refurbished at RFS's Doncaster works, it was often quoted then that refurbished C Stock are fully ducted for A/C but, were awaiting the financial go-ahead for the fitting of the equipment.
And if you are wondering how I remembered that I saw the car, 6513 is the street adress of a relative of mine.
I worked with this car on a few occasions during its time with A/C and always thought it functioned well!
Cooled air came out from the small passenger operated ventilators beside the doors and from the large duct that the central overhead hand-rails are attached to.
And even if LUL were to attempt to install A/C, they would only be able to do that on the sub-surface stock there. There is no room to install it with tube stock either above or underneath the cars. In regards to the buses, they are privately owned and operated by many different companies which are not under control of LUL, but are regulated by TfL.
Consider that many European countries also do not have subways/buses with A/C (Paris included), so it's not just a London thing.
Closer to home, Montréal does not have A/C on it's buses or trains either and they're not rushing to install it because the summer lasts for a very short time there, like it does in London.
I disagree with you steveblue2003 on this issue. What is the point of wasting millions of dollars/euros/pounds, etc. on an A/C system which will only be used sporadically? They'll deal with the heat wave now and will look forward to their drabby 68 degree rainy days............which I certainly wouldn't mind seeing here in NY real soon.
The changes in weather you are witnessing in Europe are not once in a lifetime events. Within the next 25 years, temperatures around the world will increase another 3 to 5 degrees and the London underground will become a steam bath. The days of 68 degree summer days will be over and they better have a plan in order as things are going to get unconfortable real fast. Global Warming in inevitable folks and will happen within our lifetimes. The changes will be drastic and costly.
An A/C system today will cost hundreds of millions of British Pounds Sterling, not millions. Furthermore, you will need to buy NEW subway cars for those that cannot be fitted with A/C units. They better think about buying today for these expenses will be in the BILLIONS 25 - 50 years from now. Pay now or Pay more later.
These new costs will double the fare and one can look at the MTA as a prime example. It was only within the last 25 years that we have witnessed fare increase dramatically from over the first 75 years of service. Buying new cars and installing A/C on ALL trains were a large part the fare increased the extent it did and will continue to in the future.
The British are taxed enough, they do not need to send money down the tubes (ha ha) to alay the fears of global warming fanatics.
The manufacture of CFCs has been banned completely. CFCs do not cause global warming (directly) but they do deplete the ozone layer. This is CLEAR AND PROVEN.
Train flying down the tracks in the tunnel with THAT breeze blowing. (Women in short dresses beware).
Tunnel and stations are cooler than the street level (no hot air blowing into the tunnel.)
Music of the IRT out the window and all around enveloping you.
That is a memory of summers long gone.
It doesn't get much better.
A/C not needed in a setup like this.
If we do have to spend money due to global warming [and I am far from convinced that it is a fact over and above normal climatic fluctuations, the Romans had vinyards in England, Greenland was a temperate island 2000 years ago] then it will be on sea defences etc. so that large tracts of our island don't actually disappear underneath the sea.
One reason why Paris doesn't have air conditioning is probably because they all seem to be on holiday during July and August. The Metro has a seasonal timetable with quite substantial service reductions during the summer.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_1479.jpg
(You can just barely make out the roof details in the older photo, and it looks like they may have put in new windows at some point but... same building.)
Airlines can compete with each other because the public pays for airports and runways. Telephone companies compete best when different lightwave and microwave networks compete with each other (but the road to competition is littered with failures, frauds, and miles of under-used transmission routes. Freight truckers compete with each other on taxpayer-financed highways.
Freight railroads don't compete with each other as much anymore, because route networks have consolidated into monolithic structures.
If the public paid for all tracks and terminals (passenger and freight), maybe we could talk...
If I knew that the public sector could be trusted to balance the privates with a reasonable regulatory environment -- no ideological "turn-em-loose," no graft, and no nut-crushing revenge, then I could see a public-private partnership where the public allowed a bunch of private operators to compete. But the idea is bankrupt. A single, carefully-controlled semi-public operator -- a (gasp!) public utility -- is, IMO, what we'll get after we've had a few weeks of seeing what life is like with no railroad at all.
As it stands now you have one budget to worry about in securing adequate funding. Under your scenario, you have 7 or more. What happens if, for example, Pennsylvania decides they aren't getting a "fair" slice of the revenue and decides to axe the budget for maintenance within the state?
How do you allocate revenue to, say, Delaware, where ridership is comparitively slim at Newark and Wilmington -- but the rails go right through. Can Delaware hold the entire NEC hostage for a bigger chunk of the revenue?
Er. creates more problems than it solves.
CG
Splitting up Amtrak would only result in worse service which would then cause more people to abandon rail prompting further and further rail transport cuts until it is eliminated entirely.
Such proposals are unrealistic and would cost billions more than Amtrak is getting right now for its meager services. You can kiss interconnectability goodbye, as well as speeds higher than 79 mph on the NEC. No rail service will ever be profitable, and such proposals say it even louder.
The R142 is made by Bombardier and the R142A is made by Kawasaki.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Click on this link
You'll find it useful by going through what the site has other than the boards.
- R142's have the red door lights facing downwards under the "door roof". R142a's have the lights facing the interior of the car on the side bars of the doors.
- The structure outside of the blowers at the ends of the cars on the ceiling are shaped differently. (Don't know details to check)
- The obvious are the motor sounds, which has been discussed before.
These are the only differences I know (besides the builders). Anything else please feel free to pitch in.
Bombardier cars have the overhead speakers running straight down the ceiling while the Kawasaki cars have them on the sides of the ceiling.
Interior LED signage is slightly brighter on the R142A.
However, the Bombardier cars have a smoother ride (from what I've heard).
On the Bombardier cars, you can clearly see the attachments between the bar and the overhead supports for it. On the Kawasaki cars, the overhead supports for the bar and the bar itself are seamlessly attached together.
The R142A cars have a few more ad panels on the inside than the Kawasaki cars.
There is also a cosmetic difference on the sides of the exterior on both trains.
The trucks on the undersides of the Bombardier cars and Kawasaki cars look different as well.
I don't know if any other differences exist.
Do you mean the R142?
R142- Alstom
R142A- AdTranz
Air Springs
R142- Firestone
R142A- Lord / Sumitomo.
R142- Alstom
R142A- AdTranz
Air Springs
R142- Firestone
R142A- Lord / Sumitomo.
The R-142 and R-142A have already been mentioned. The R-68 "screams". The R-44 "farts" and air pressure sounds escape when its in the station. The R-32 seems to "woosh" as it glides into a station, and its wheels make a distinctive sound over some trackage and switches. There are more.
The 142A has a one piece black fiberglass front on the cab ends.
The 142 has a small black fiberglass front above the windows. Someone decided to get cheap and cover everything from the top of the windows down with two large pieces of black decals.
The 142A has a narrow raised belt running the length of the car under the side windows. The 142's don't.
And of course, each line has a different voice for the automated announcements.
The voices for the 2 and 6 lines sound similar but are different. It sounds like a middle to older aged woman
The 5 train announcements sound like some much younger woman though. And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the 142's have a DING DONG go off when the female automated voice starts talking after the doors open?
I have never rode a 142A on the 4 so I don't know how those announcements sounds.
Also, the 142 runs on the 2 and 5 while the 142A runs on the 4 and 6. Sometimes you'll see a 142 on the 4/6 or a 142A on the 2/5, but its rare.
What happens more often is trains running on the same pair of lines but different route. Since the interior strip maps are not interchangeable, problems occur (Example: When a 142A normally running on the 6 ends up on the 4, or a 142 that normally runs on the 2 ends up on the 5.) The strip maps get all confused;-)
Hope that helps.
R142 cars have a black painted front end- no fiberglass.
The 4 has a mixed fleet of R142 and R142A
R142A's do not ever run on the 2, unless by extreme circumstance, and R142's ran on the 6 recently (all R142 from the 4), due to the track break at 125.
The announcemets on the 2 are done by Dianne Thompson, and are very loud and sound like an old woman.
The 4/5/6 announcments are done by 3 different voices, nearly indestinguishable from one another ( the MTA's corporate voice set). The little girl voice on the 5 was removed a very long time ago.
"The 5 train announcements sound like some much younger woman though. And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the 142's have a DING DONG go off when the female automated voice starts talking after the doors open? "
No, but maybe the train that you were on had severe technical difficulties.
See this flyer for more information
Eugene K. Skoropowski
Managing Director
Capitol Corridor Joint Powers Authority
Summary of July ridership and ticket revenue results:
Pacific Surfliner:
* 211,913 passengers +32.4% vs FY02 and a record for the month
* 3,504,159 ticket revenue +24.5% vs FY02
San Joaquins:
* 74,240 passengers +6.8% vs FY02
* $1,947,957 ticket revenue +14.9% vs FY02
Capitol Corridor:
* 92,191 passengers +2.4% vs FY02 and a record for the month
* $1,051,909 ticket revenue +9.9% vs FY02
and the ELEVENTH consecutive month of record high ridership
A couple of other highlights:
* Pacific Surfliner ridership was the second highest monthly
total ever for the service while ticket revenue was the highest ever for
any month.
* San Joaquin ridership was the second highest ever for July
while ticket revenue was the highest ever for any month.
* Capitol Corridor ticket revenue was the highest ever for any
month.
Before 2001, the orange Q was the part time service and didn't run out of Concourse, so there was no problem giving it the slants.
Since 2001, the diamond yellow Q was the part time service, also avoiding Concourse, so again no problem.
But in 2004, the B is the part time service and will run out of Concourse.
Unless they plan on changing the signs on the slants regularly, one of the two aforementioned principles must give way to the other. I would not mind having one of the following scenarios.
SCENARIO 1
B: R68
D: R68
N: R68A and some R40
Q: R40
This shifts the Brighton slants from the express to the local, but the benefits are that they run full time so you can get a railfan window even on weekends. The other scenario:
SCENARIO 2
B: R40
D: R68
N: R68A and some R40
Q: R68
This allows for a much more fun Brighton express, one that runs up "the dash" on 6th Ave and then to CPW and beyond. But if they do this:
SCENARIO 3
B: R68
D: R68
N: R40
Q: R68A and some R40
I'd go crazy!
Any thoughts?
Second, it's not the shops that determine which cars are assigned where. That's up to the Chief Mechanical Officer and his staff, in conjunction with Operations Planning. We'll know what cars are going where when they go wherever they're going.
David
I've been wondering what the transition on Feb. will be like. Sat., I'll bet they will mix the N and W fleet in preparation. Before midnight, the last few W's will leave Stillwell with 68A's, and probably change into N's at Astoria. Soon after, the first N's will be extended past Pacific. The last W's leaving Astoria, right before midnight, will probably use 40's, and then lay up after arriving at CI. Some, laying up earlier, will probably go to City Hall yard, and perhaps also Lex/63rd. I'm wondering if they might give all of the space at these places to the W's, and kick the R's out, to avoid long light runs from Brooklyn as much as possible.
Then, of course, the first D's will proceed past 34th southbound, and leave Stillwell northboud, at midnight. Whatever 68's being transferred from CI to add to the Concourse fleet, will be used for this. Perhaps some of them might be running on the last returning W's. Since the Q local is not changing, and the diamond Q and its replacement the B do not run weekends, you will not have the last Q's leaving Brooklyn completing their round trips and returning until around 2 hours after the changeover, overlapping with the D's now fully running, as you did at the original Chrystie St. opening and the weekly summer 1995 Sunday night transition.
R68- 425 cars(2500-2924) will be on the Q, N and FAS
R32- the 150 cars have merged to the Queens BLVD line
R40- (4150-4449) these I would think will be on the new B and the remainder on the weekday W mixed with off peak N
R40M- (4450-4549) these will be on the N/W
R42- (4550-----) I dont know how many will be in CI exclusive from M service
Chuck Greene
- No B service north of Fordham ROad
- D service runs local in the Bronx 24/7
The first advisory is correct. The second one isn't. All D trains are running express south of Tremont Ave, just like the normally do. The most important service advisory isn't even on any of these signs (or the MTA website), that being that all D trains are terminating at Bedford Park and only a 1 track shuttle runs between BPB and 205th.
Duh!
Going the way you shouldn't go
Looks like the MTA partially covered themselves on this one
http://mta.info/nyct/service/pdf_f/28_bdno.pdf
Trains run in two sections:
1.Between Norwood-205 St and Bedford Pk Blvd(200 St) and
2.Between Bedford Pk Blvd(200 St) and 34 St-Herald Square
Transfer at Bedford Pk Blvd(200 St) to continue your trip
At least the pdf has something correct
Anyway, I was on traveling along BPB on a bus(Academy) on Sunday and one of the stores had a 200th Street address posted on the top, so I guess that statement is correct, Old Bronx Numbered Street designations die hard. So far that makes at least 2 places(I think there could be more) which openly use 200. The (4) and (8) IRT stations kept the "200th Street" name alive (which were actually built after the name change, but still used 200, or BPB-200) into the 70s, or the 80s (until the (4) station was "updated" from the White Paper signs to the Black metal signs, could have also been the early 90s)
If the (D) had 200th on it's station, more people would be using that name today, like how many people call Dyckman Street, 200th Street (although Dyckman was never 200th at all) Just like how the MTA keeps the "238th Street" name alive on the (2) and <5> lines, a US Reserve building has a E 238th Street address. The post office must still recognize these old addresses then (just like how 7th Avenue is still used in Harlem and on maps or how E 177th Street addresses still exist along the Cross Bronx and is shown on some maps as well)
New Yorkers also kept using 6th Avenue after it was "officially" gone for many years, until they finally caved in and brought it back on the signs
200th Street was on the large signs as well, making it different from the other lamp post numbers
1.Between Norwood-205 St and Bedford Pk Blvd(200 St) and
2.Between Bedford Pk Blvd(200 St) and 34 St-Herald Square
Transfer at Bedford Pk Blvd(200 St) to continue your trip
I think there could of been a little more depth in this statement like saying that trains have a 1 track shuttle for those who may NOT know why they have to do so.
Speaking of Fordham Road, they should really call that 188th Street, seeing as though the full time entrance is NOT on Fordham. Which is misleading.
Fordham Road itself has 2 entrances(that I have seen) and they are usually closed, pathetic on the MTA's part, people might as well take the 4 if they have to walk extra distances.
They should open up both entrances and use HEETS to handle this
Hopefully the SAS stations won't end up like this
What about the following stations:
Kingsbridge Road/IND
170th st/IND
163rd st/Amsterdam Ave/IND
110th St/Cathedral Pkwy./IND
Fort Hamilton Parkway/Culver IND
15th st/PP/IND
Chauncey St/BMT
Lafayette Ave/IND
Rockaway Ave/IND
74th st/Broadway/IRT
Lorimer St/BMT Canarsie Line
There is one open staircase and a closed off staircase at the north end of Fordham Road. That makes it difficult to access this station. The reason why 188th st is the F/T mezzanine is that all 4 corners of the street level intersection have one subway entrance each. Should the need arise, they can reopen the western side of Fordham Road passageway (leading towards the old Alexanders/Caldor building) but most likely it will never happen or when the station is up for renovation, it may be sealed off forever.
I'd honestly like to see NYCT reopen that side, the foot traffic warrants it, but it will still lead to 188th st and that must be the F/T booth.
One nice thing the ta has done on its website the past weekends has been putting service changes in one place, saving someone the convenience of going through over a dozen .pdf files or poring over flyers at the station.
Well, important to railfans and to TA employees I guess. But what percentage of total D train riders are actually impacted by trains not running through to 205 -- probably less than 5%, maybe less than 1%.
CG
Like duh... you can't WALK those few blocks? Sheesh
There's no easy, direct way to walk between the two stations. You could exit Bedford Park at its northernmost exit at 203rd Street, walk north on the Concourse four blocks, right on Van Cortlandt Avenue, cross the very wide Mosholu Parkway and its service roads at grade (having to wait for up to four very long lights in the process), then another two blocks till Bainbridge between 207th and 208th. Or you could walk east on Bedford Park three blocks, then left on Bainbridge, which takes a twisting route of at least FIVE BLOCKS- also crossing Mosholu.
BTW, the main exit at 205th leads you to Bainbridge and 206th, where all the bus stops and stores associated with a subway terminal are located. The fact that the stop was named for 205th refers to a lesser, part-time entrance two blocks east and down a steep hill at 205th and Perry- a quiet, residential corner.
The whole reason for the line's sharp change of course east was that the original IND line was originally intended to continue to the northeast Bronx. If you've ever been at 205th terminal, you'll notice the tracks continue a short distance beyond the platform due east along 205th Street. This is used to turn the trains around. It's very similar to 179th, but with two tracks instead of four.
It suffered the same fate as many other projected IND extensions. The old Transportation Department had a choice: either continue the Concourse line northeast, or acquire of the old Boston-Westchester ROW for the IRT and make it the current Dyre branch, which would serve some of the same territory. The fact that the line would cut under Bronx Park (but NOT a part of the zoo or the Botanical Gardens) and River probably didn't help either.
For whatever it's worth, the terminal at 205th is very crowded at peak hours. It's in a neighborhood served by no other subway line since 1973 when the el running along Webster Avenue was torn down. There are connections to numerous bus lines running to Woodlawn, Williamsbridge, Wakefield and extreme southeast Yonkers. Many people in those areas prefer to take the bus to Norwood terminal rather than use the much closer 2 train. The Woodlawn terminal of the 4 is much less popular than 205th, since there are fewer bus routes- and the area around it appears somewhat desolate, bracketed as it is by the golf course and cemetery. As mentioned, the main entrance to Norwood terminal is in a fairly busy neighborhood shopping area.
What's funny is a lot of people have never HEARD of Norwood- including some people who live there. It's usually regarded as Bedford Park, Bainbridge, or "the area around Montefiore (Hospital)".
BUt you desribed the distance (AND the schlep) pretty well except fvor one EENSY BEENSY detail ... TRYING to cross Mosholu Parkway. FUGGIT, I go BACK to PBP and wait for the damned D train. :)
(in ADDITION to everything ELSE you mentioned. Heh)
And, why on earth would you wait for the D train at PBP, surely you meant BPB.
Peace,
ANDEE
But I just wanted to get a rise out of the crowd that thought that the Lexington should go into South Ferry again.
Besies, what is a half-mile walk. 15 minutes. Sheesh! Don't you know what is good for you?
: ) Elias
R-142 Car 1111
Pic of Car R-62 1400
R-62 Car 1471
R-62 Car 1479
An R-142 Departing Bedford Park Boulevard
An R-142 entering Woodlawn
Oh yeah here is a color Photo of Car 1450
R-62 Car 1450
Elias
Thats some damn good photography Chris. It might be some of the best work of yours.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
: ) Elias
NOPE! All the gates cars were out of service long before you were old enough to ride on them.
: )- Elias
Wrong, I just caught a gate car at the Avenue L station a few weeks ago.
Uhh, you guys are joking, right? Talking about Gates AVENUE, not gate cars. Or have I entered the Twilight Zone?
The J skip-stop might be signed as distinct from the J all-stops, but it might not.
NOPE. LIRR platforms are (mostly) empty when a flyer flys through. They are also very much wider than platforms on Jamaica avenue, and finally,
LIRR passnegers know the schedule. they know that their train is the 6:06 and that the 5:58 is a Flyer.
Besides the LIRR is a RAILROAD not a subway train.
David
That's neat! Thanks for letting us know. Progress!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
David
David
Then, a few minutes later, the same train came back. I've never seen anyone in such a rush to go nowhere!
The supposed reason is due to the signal system. If signalling is designed to stop a train leaving a station before it hits a train in front of it, there's no way it can stop a train doing 30.
That's the TAs reason for teh restriction anyway. If its BS or not, I'm not going to argue.
CG
Killin' me softly.....
(1)South Ferry(5) regular
(1)South Ferry<5> rush hours
(1)South Ferry(6) nights
So here is a new one for you
(1)Broadway(2)(3)
Elias
Nonsense. This is SubTalk, where the rules of time and space don't apply. If the 4 can still go to Coney Island, even via Arcadia, CA, then the 9 can still go to South Ferry. Better yet, (1)South Ferry(5)(6)(SS).
::sniff::
Tho I know I can't wander TOO FAR from the "South Ferry" name
since that's what I called myself on the NYTimes Ultimate Ride
program....
It's not THAT hard..... really.
Otherwise it is a bad joke. One day they cancelled it and a woman sitting across from me was complaining, "Oh no, it'll take me forever to get home now with no skip stop" I asked her how much time she thought skip stop saved her, and she told me "at least 15 minutes". OK..............................
There have been unusual reroutes over the years that incorporated relays. There was one over that had the D going onto the Williamsburg Bridge. Fear of the train dying did not stop that plan. But there is more.
Is the likelihood of train failure while relaying significantly greater than while in other service? If not then it is hard to take this reasoning seriously. But even assuming there is a higher risk of failure in relaying the risk of passengers getting stuck on a train-in the case of some relays always near the station-must be balanced with their interest in more service.
Again assuming the risk of passengers stuck in trains being relayed, how is this so bad compared to passengers getting stuck with the trains in service? Getting stuck on a broken train isnt much fun in most places.
I think they should have run the #1 express northbound between 215 and 242 while the #9 terminate at 238. The #9 would have enough time to fumigate. As for riders headed north between 225 and 242, the TA doesn't currently care about them anyway, as they already have very limited access to northbound service north of 207 St.
(I used to do what you're doing for a living)
--Mark
When I lived on the Upper East Side [just a phase, don't judge me :)], there was occasionally a rotund asian opera singer with a Casio at 77th St and Lex. He was also quite good. I don't know if he still hangs out there, though, that was about 3 years ago.
And don't worry about me performing in uniform. I'll be sure to cover the MTA patch with duct tape.
I think I heard him recently (not there) and he was AWFUL. Maybe it wasn't the same guy. But the description pretty much matches.
Some are licensed, but others are not.
Yikes! Hasn't that been done?
I hope you will have a piece on the economics of the subway:
-- Home economics: how much less New Yorkers spend on motor vehicles because they use transit.
-- Regional economics -- home much of the region's wealth is generated by the Manhattan CBD, and how much it relies on rail transit.
-- Local economics -- how the location of local shopping in older sections of the city was organized around transit lines and, in cases such as 5th Avenue in Brooklyn, former transit lines.
(or "3 a.m. eternal")
:-) Ok just a joke...
Mrs. Jenkins' wedding ring?
Hell no, then it's time to pull up a lawnchair and some popcorn!
Just wait until you start seeing Cherenkov radiation.
And we WONDER why the ENTIRE planet is flipping America the "YOU'RE number one" sign accidentally using the WRONG finger." :(
When was that, exactly? No one spray-painted cars in the 40s because Krylon wasn't exactly as readily available then as it was thirty years later. Tell anyone that remember the torn wicker seats that vandalism is a modern problem. The razor wire just means that we're getting a better grip on the problem these days.
On the contrary. It clearly shows who's in charge and shows a degree of control in the matter of demarcation of property rights.
Once upon a time, chain-link fences was more than enough protection around subway/rail yards.
No, they weren't. As thetzar said, the only reason there was no graffiti is because there was no spraypaint.
now, around certain stations and yards, the miles of menacing razor wire conveys a sad sign...society is out of control
Ahh, the good old days, the days when a woman's place was in the kitchen, when there was racial segregation, when ethnically biased hiring practices were common, when you couldn't walk into certain neighborhoods in BROAD DAYLIGHT because you were from the wrong ethnic group.
I guess we'd have to go back further, to the days when workers worked in ridiculously dangerous conditions for low wages, or when gang warfare was sport, or when birthright determined the outcome of one's life.
Yup, it's today's society that's out of control.
the old days are long gone.
HALLELUJAH! (or equivalent)
I remember the second half of R40 cars were delivered with "factory" air. They say, you could tell by the holes in the roof when the cars are pre-air.
The full length cab started with the horrible R44 bing bong cars. They arrived in l973? The R40 cars with A/C were in 1970?
Some designer of subway cars must have realized that with A/C, there was no need to open doors between cars in the summer, so why even have doors in all cars. One side is enough, for emergence?
So the R42 was the last model with a window to look out in the front.
I do not know how Boston, Montreal or London deal with summer heat and no door at the end of a subway car. Does anyone know how?
I will take fresh air and a railfan window over A/C even on the hottest summer days.
Montréal deals with it by having very strong fan systems on it's cars in conjunction with a tunnel fan system which sucks in the hot tunnel air and exhausts it outside. The MR63 cars also have removed the windows from the storm doors and replace it with a screen which improves cross-ventilation.
London just deals with it, but their storm doors between cars have windows that slide all the way down to improve ventilation.
Paris also doesn't have A/C, but they do have a form of a railfan window, albeit the R44/46 kind.
And technically, the last TA model to have a railfan window is the R68. If you recall when the R68's were still single car units on the D, it was not uncommon to see a #2 end of a car as an operating end.
There was an incident that led the TA to make sure the full cab end would always be the operating end on an R-68. Anyone remember what it was?
--Mark
When the R68/A's weren't in 4 car links they had a RF window; now you could catch a R62A with a window from the ones that have half width cabs now.
What is so good about "fresh" air anyway? The outdoor air is horribly polluted, and the indoor air is the same since trains (and other facilities) are not hermetically sealed.
I will take A/C over a railfan window any day. Comfort is more important than entertainment when one rides the subway every day for commutation purposes.
Don't Have AIM, eh? Download it free here at www.aim.com!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
But Amtrak *does* have freight cars for its own MOW purposes, and quite likely will cooperate with MTA in moving said cars around it tracks and yards. Maybe it cannot ship in ballast, but perhaps it can contract (As owner of the ROW) maintenance services and movements of working maintenance equipment over it and adjoining rails.
Elias
NYCT has plenty of locos. At least one is on loan to Metro North, too.
start here to see NYCT's locos
Robert
Yup, #064. Got a few pics of it at GCT a couple of years ago.
To quote Mr. Pirmann from earlier in this thread, "It's a GE 50-ton electric."
just joking, the steam comment just struck me funny
Can someone tell me why the R-33s werent scrapped first primarily because of the A/C??
Also why do the R-33 single units have labels that say "Air Conditioned Car" Please keep windows closed. Why do they even have those labels when Corona should know that they have NO AC??
Chris
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Just another example of MTA ignorance.
The summer (July-August) is the only time the MTA has been shortening the trains in the past decade. Believe it or not, I've even seen the #7 as 8-car trains also the trains on the #6 being 7-cars (when the fleet was R62)
Why not this summer? --thats the issue
I think
A-the new ongoing inventory of R62 just complicates things
B-some of the trains will be around in the fall when ridership patterns increase
Didn't take long to realize that was an r-33 single....
Hot (and not bothered) in 9308
I know I’m a little late getting this one out. I used my regular day off to take the beautiful bride to the county fair. I decided it was time to have some fun first and put the column second this week. It was great to be able get out and enjoy the day at the fair.
Today's chapter is a bit lengthier than normal, so you may want to go pop up some popcorn or get some munchees before you start reading. And now, on with the show.
In late February 1985, I was furloughed from the MoPac. The Union Pacific (whom we had merged with in December 1982) was trying to downsize one of the most important terminals on the entire system, Chicago. Oddly enough Chicago was the terminal that they had sought to direct gain entry to for years. Rumors of the downsizing and then the actual efforts to carry out this plan were being observed by those of us that worked there. Clerical, Mechanical and Transportation employees were slowly being whittled away from the ranks. Some were offered transfers to other locations; others were given a separation allowance and dismissed. In my case I received a phone call from the Crew Caller telling me the news. I was told over the phone one morning that I had been furloughed. To me UP now meant Unemployed Professionals.
I had been preparing for such a day and had already begun sending resumes all over North America looking for gainful employment in the railroad industry. And of course this was at a time that the entire rail industry was going through a major downsizing. In the weeks after I was cut off, I had really stepped up the job search. I was even looking for employment outside of the rail industry. I had no intention of being unemployed for long.
In mid-March I got a hit from a resume sent out few couple of weeks earlier. The South Shore called. I spoke with a fellow named Jake Vasquez and he wanted to arrange an interview. Within minutes after getting this call, I received another call, this one from my friend Joe Broad. Joe and I worked at the MoPac together and had been cut off about the same time. He told of also getting a call for an interview at the South Shore and being asked if he knew me. For whatever reason, Joe gave them a glowing report about me and suggested I be contacted as well. I guess that is what friends do for each other.
Two days later I was at the South Shore General Office in Michigan City. The job interview process was carried through and then the wait began. I didn’t hear anything for several days, so I began to call and inquire. I think I called a dozen times over several days. Jake was not in so I kept leaving messages. I guess he found lots of pink “While you were out” messages with my name on them. The persistence paid off; I got the call and was offered a job. Once again, I was on the phone with Joe Broad and he too, was offered employment.
We rode out to Michigan City together discussing our futures with our new found employment. Joe was lifelong friends with a guy named Marty Cawley. Marty had been working at the South Shore for almost a year before we had been hired. After we did the paperwork and employment physical thing, we stopped over at Marty’s to visit and get more insight into the South Shore. Marty gave us the lowdown about the place and what we could expect. Needless to say, I was thrilled to be gainfully employed again.
Joe and I, along with several others hired about the same time were given an orientation and filled in on what would be expected from us. It was not the normal start in the rail industry, especially for somebody who had well over six years of experience on the job. But it was providing a paycheck and I guess that was the important issue.
When I was first hired at the South Shore, there was this training program of which all new hires had to partake. Everybody was hired as a coach cleaner. Irregardless of experience or background, we all started as coach cleaners. We cleaned all the passenger cars every evening upon their return to Shops Yard in Michigan City at the end of the commuter rush. While doing this in the evenings, we were required to go (on our own time) over to all the yards on the system to make “student trips” of sorts.
The training program was a sixty day affair. During this time period we were required to spend a minimum of six hours each at Randolph Street, Gary and Shops Yard to learn about them. We had to be able to map out the yards at each location including the location of each switch, catenaries and power cut off switches. We had to ride with the Terminal Carmen at each location and were even given hands on opportunities. We were allowed to operate the passenger cars as they were switched out. We would also learn a great deal about these cars for trouble shooting purposes as well.
The program required a maximum of sixty days, but some had done it in less. The best record was twenty-seven days; I decided that I would do it in far less time than that. Joe and I and another new hire we met named Tom, came up with a plan to beat the best time. We talked with several people we met at the Shore and took tips from them. We also schemed a bit figuring out how to beat the system. Scheming was something we seemed to do best.
On my second day there we took the trip downtown to Randolph to undertake the student trip process. Joe and Tom had actually started a few days before me and had a bit of a head start. We hooked up with a few of the Terminal Carmen there and tapped into their experience. They were a very helpful bunch and glad to offer any information we asked of them. We also discovered that nobody was actually keeping track of actual our time at any location. The times we indicated on the forms we turned in we what was counted. A Carman would have to sign off that we were there, but we were not required to spend all of our time with them. We also had to roam around and look at everything to make our maps. So needless to say, times shown on the sheet and time actually spent there were quite different. Joe, Tom and I had quickly surmised that being experienced railroaders did not require us to have to spend so much time learning much of what we already had a grasp on.
We would begin our student trips in the morning. We went to a location did our tours and then went to Shops Yard and cleaned coaches. We discussed what we learned with each other and the others we cleaned coaches with. It was quite the share of information. We also discussed which departments we were planning to make our moves to after the training program was completed. Choices included transportation, mechanical, clerical and electrical. We were all pretty excited about what the future had in store for all of us.
“The future’s so bright, I gotta wear shades.”
I was putting in a great deal of time both cleaning coaches and doing the student trips. Sleep almost seemed to not be an option. In addition to the student trips and work, we also had to study the rule book and write portions of it out. During breaks and lunch from cleaning coaches, we were doing just that and doing it in teams. The rules were being discussed while we cleaned as well. Talk about living and breathing the job.
Did I mention that I set the record for completing the training program? Did it in six working days; a record that will stand the test of time. They eventually eliminated this training program.
On my seventh day of employment, I was ready to take the first written and oral test. The written test was given to us at Randolph Street. The following day was the oral portion along with a walk through of a coach. Prior to taking the test, we were at Randolph Street preparing and studying while sitting in a coach. Joe was seriously concerned about not passing the test. His remark was something to the effect of “If I don’t pass this test, I might wind up driving a cab.” I looked at him and said “Ya you look sort of like one of those cabbies you see in the old movies.” With that, his nickname was born. He became Cabbie, a name he carries to this day.
We took the rules exam and all passed. We then made the trip out on Saturday to Shops Yard and did the oral test and coach walk through. It was then we also had to declare the craft we wanted to work. We were then sent to see Bob Maddox the Assistant Superintendent of Transportation. Bob gave us the information we needed to get started including the necessary tools of the trade. We were issued switch lamps, switch keys, employee timetables, operating rulebooks, Chessie System safety books, a ticket punch, and a ticket duplex for cutting cash fares. Each ticket punch is unique; it punches a different shape of hole peculiar of that particular punch. That particular punch was our signature so to speak. We were required to punch a hat check and it was placed into our employment file. If there were any situations or discrepancies involving us and a punched ticket, the hole punched in the ticket could be matched against the punch registered in our file.
The ticket duplex was used to cut cash fares on the train. It had a bar with three pointers on it used to set the price of the fare. When you pulled the receipt out of the duplex, it cut the price of the ticket onto the receipt, hence the term “cutting a cash fare.” We had to sign for the cash fares we received. Bob explained the procedures and responsibilities we held for handling the cash fares. We would be financially responsible for any lost fares or lost money collected unless we were robbed and had a police report to verify such a theft.
We were explained the South Shore’s extra board and call policy. Being that we all lived outside of the Michigan City area, we were all outside of their local calling zone. This meant they either had to call us collect or we had to give them a calling card number to use for them to call us. This meant getting called to work was going to cost me money. Also, they had a one and a half hour call instead of the two hour policy we had all been accustomed to. So let’s see now, I have to pay to get called to work, I have less time to report and I live further away. This is going to be interesting.
Bob also took us down to the basement of the office. They had some old uniforms there. We went through them in an attempt to find something that would fit and hold us until we received our own uniforms. I can wear virtually noting off the rack and really didn’t find one that was a god fit here. The jacket I found fit in the shoulders but the arms were far too short. Whoever ordered this one must’ve been short and built like a bowling ball. But it had to do.
Several weeks later we went to see a guy in Chicago and were all measured for our uniforms. After waiting for about two months, my new uniform came in. I went to try it on and it didn’t fit. The shoulders were too tight. It was alright if I didn’t need to do anything like move. The tailor insisted it was fine. The pants were also a poor fit, sort of seemed like they measured somebody else for my uniform instead of me. Again, this guy insisted they would be fine. Ya, if I wanted to quit moving and breathing. Things sort of got ugly as I told him I wasn’t going to accept this and he practically demanded I take it. We had to pay for our first uniform, something to the tune of $100 and I sure as hell wasn’t going to pay this kind of money for something that didn’t fit.
So I continued to wear the old less than adequate jacket, my own dress slacks and made due. One Conductor saw my plight and gave me one of his older jackets. Apparently it had “shrunk” over the years and no longer fit him. While it did have longer sleeves, it was a little tight in the shoulders. But it was far better than the old worn out thing I was wearing.
Several months after my first go round with the tailor and the non-fitting uniform, I get a call that my new uniform was finally in, again. So I went to try this one on. Apparently they over compensated for the coat. I wear a 44 and this had to be at least a 48. I was swimming in it. He suggested alterations to take it in but again I told him no, this was not what I had ordered or was fitted for. And the slacks were matched with the jacket. I could put another person in there with me. In all the time I was at the Shore, I never did get a new uniform.
Back to the meeting with Bob Maddox, he told me they were really short on Engineers and it was very likely they would have me qualifying soon and running an engine again in no time. Well, that didn’t happen. I don’t blame him for this not coming about though. He wanted me to be running an engine and trains, but it wound up not being his choice in the matter. Bob was actually a pretty fair guy and treated us pretty well. He was honest about things good and bad. I appreciate that in a supervisor.
Right after we went into transportation when we completed the training program, they recommended, make that strongly recommended, no, let’s call it started to push for us to move closer to Michigan City. The weather we had to drive though during the winter could justify the company’s attitude about living in or near Michigan City. I was not really crazy about the town though and did not relish the thought of living there. I really didn’t make too much effort to relocate. Actually, I put forth almost no serious effort. A few times I did look at some houses in the Valparaiso and Chesterton area as well as nearby New Buffalo, MI to get some ideas about prices, but I never got serious about relocating. Every so often a company official would inquire as to the efforts of my relocation. I would tell them nobody has expressed an interest in purchasing my house and I cannot relocate until the place is sold. Of course, I omitted the little detail that I did not even have my place on the market. I lived far enough away that they were not going to come and check it out.
I began my student trips starting the very next day. I worked a passenger job with Conductor Dale Kelly. Dale showed me a great deal on that first day. Of course I probably didn’t remember half of it. Being that it was a Sunday, virtually all of the tickets agents were closed. This meant a great deal of cash fares. I knew nothing about cutting cash fares and was getting a baptism under fire in learning about them. Dale was very patient about it all. All of the other Conductors I worked with while I was training were also very patient and they all taught me something about working passenger.
Then I took some student trips on freight and was turned loose on the extra board. I worked numerous assignments in both freight and passenger. One day I was called for a special train.
The special train was the business and media excursion. This would probably be one the better assignments I would work. No tickets to collect, no annoying or troublesome passengers to deal with. No customers complaining about late trains with nowhere to sit. The folks in this train were there by invitation and were friendly and polite. I rubbed elbows with all sorts of people within the industry. And being the South Shore was feeding and refreshing these folks, we were entitled to these goodies too, except for the fermented or distilled stuff. Although I quickly figured I could have fun with this. I don’t drink a great deal of soda, so I was drinking water with a twist of lime or lemon. It sure looked like a drink and every railroad official on the train had to stop and check it (and me) out.
The hardest part of this trip was handling the switches when we ran around the train at South Bend and Ice House. I spent the rest of the time schmoozing, roaming through the train and taking in the ambiance of these fine old cars and the train ride. When we arrived back at Shops Yard, my day was pretty much done and I was able to head on home. I did get one of the media kits they were passing out as a souvenir of the day.
Within a couple of months, I was asked if I was ready to be qualified flagman. On the South Shore, to work the caboose you had to be a qualified flagman. This required completion of a written and oral test. And normally you needed to be on the job longer, but being that I had previous experience they offered it to me sooner. One of the requirements was to write another portion of the rulebook; that portion that dealt with the oral test I would take. This was my written portion of the test. The oral exam was essentially the portion I wrote out. Oddly enough, there were no questions involving the actual procedures for flagging and protecting your train. Go figure.
Shortly before taking the flagging test, a new agreement between the United Transportation Union and the South Shore allowed for reduced crews on all freight runs. Instead of two Brakemen with the Conductor as part of the ground crew, one Brakeman was eliminated. As a result, they increased the number or freight assignments from three to five as well. This meant more jobs on freight and now, a shortage of qualified flagmen to ride the caboose. As a result, I wound up working mostly freight for several months. In fact, at one point I was able to hold a regular freight assignment as the flagman.
Eventually I got bumped out of freight and back to passenger. I was able to hold a regular job in passenger and I took it. Even though I was not crazy about passenger it beat the uncertainties of the extra board, the shorter call times and having to pay for the call to work. While I was never late, I did just barely make it a few times. And if you are late for passenger they don’t hold the train. It departs and you get in trouble. I was told that if you knew you were going to be late, go to a station where you can meet the train and catch it there. Also, use the Dispatcher phone and call to let them know. I believe I set a few land speed records a couple of times to not be late. It was good to own a muscle car in those days.
As it worked out, Cabbie and I eventually wound up on one of the same passenger combinations so we used to ride to work together. This saved a little cash for the both of us. During a couple of severe early morning snowstorms, it also got us to work. We had to drive through that world renowned Northwest Indiana snow belt. On several mornings Cabbie was driving and I was hanging out the passenger side with the door open looking down at the pavement trying to make sure we were still on it and looking for the lines on the road. Somehow, we didn’t get into a wreck so we didn’t get killed. And, we were never once late.
We’ll get into some passenger episodes in a bit, but first we’ll look at some fun and games in freight.
I was working freight one Sunday afternoon. We had just run around a 155 car coal train we had pulled from the B&O. The train was pulling into Bethlehem Steel and I was back at the tail end lining back the switches from the main line into the siding. The train had just cleared the switches and I was lining them back when I heard the train go into emergency. The Engineer reported to the Trainmaster working with us that they had derailed in the 430 Yard. I jumped into the truck with the Trainmaster and we headed up there to get a look. Sure enough, there were several loads of coal on their sides and into a track (and the cars in that track) along side of the one the train was on.
There was much blame being placed, the railroad called it a broken rail while Bethlehem said it was the South Shore’s fault. So, it was decided to hold an investigation to “determine the responsibility, if any,” of the crew involved. So I had to make the drive to Michigan City on the day we were requested to appear. I was asked the following questions;
“Were you working this assignment on the date of this incident?”
“Yes I was.”
“What can you tell us of this derailment?”
“I was 155 cars away from the head end lining back the switches when I heard the train go into emergency. The Engineer reported over the radio that we had derailed in the 430 Yard. Upon being transported to the scene by the Trainmaster, I learned we had indeed derailed just as the Engineer had stated.”
I was then excused and went home. When all was said and done, we were exonerated and Bethlehem had to pay for the clean up and repair costs of the derailment. I wasted the all this time and effort having to drive all the way to Michigan City for two questions. Hell, I could’ve phoned this in.
One evening while delivering the empties back to the B&O at Miller, I had dropped off and walked down the hill to the east end of the interchange yard. I was going to protect the shove as we had quite a few cars to deliver and we need to shove both tracks right to the corner. There was a junkyard there at the very east end of the interchange yard. A big dog kept to guard the place would always start carrying on whenever you came anywhere near. The fence had panels over it so you could not see the dog, but you could sure hear him. He would always make quite the racket whenever we were there. This dog was yelling and his running up against the fence, as if he was trying to climb over it and ram through it.
“Badder than old King Kong, and meaner than a junkyard dog.”
This particular evening the dog was carrying on for awhile, but then he got sort of quiet. I soon learned why. As the cut we were delivering was being shoved towards me, I suddenly heard deep breathing and the sound of somebody rapidly approaching me from behind. When I turned around, I spotted the junkyard dog charging towards me. And it did not appear that he was coming to play. I yanked a fusee out of my pocket and struck it. Throughout most of my career, they have never lit on the first strike. Tonight, the Good Lord was looking out for me and the fusee lit right away.
I shoved the burning fusee right into the dog’s face as he reached me. I caught him good as he let out quite the scream. He turned and immediately ran away. Close examination to the fence showed that he had burrowed under a portion of it and this was how he got out. I reported this find to the Trainmaster and he made arrangements to contact this junkyard to report the episode and for them to make certain this wouldn’t happen again. As far as I know, I was the only one that had such an encounter here.
Another evening I was working a job that had pulled the empties from Bethlehem for the B&O. We had pulled by the connection at Miller west of Lake Street and I cut our engines away from the train. The B&O job came out, coupled on and cut in the air. After a considerable time pumping the air, the brakes on my end of the cut still had not released. The B&O Engineer tried to pull them but with no luck. I walked up about twenty cars and the brakes were still set. I was thinking there was an overcharge of the brake pipe. After a considerable amount of time with nothing done to resolve this problem, it was decided to couple back on and make a cut at a road crossing we had been blocking for a considerable time. We took care of that and I stood and waited at the crossing. It began to rain and there I stood, waiting in the rain; and waiting, and waiting some more.
It was quickly becoming a very bad time in my life. There I was, standing in the rain at a road crossing in Gary on a Friday night. I was thinking about how just a few months ago I was running hot shot intermodal trains on the MoPac and now I am standing in the rain on a Friday night in Gary playing Brakeman. Could it get much worse? Why certainly. Always remember, “There is no situation so bad that it cannot get worse.” You can credit that quote to me.
The dolly I was dating during this time period was also not very happy. I was quickly becoming less than satisfied with my current employment situation. It had become quite clear that I was not going to be back running again anytime soon. While the job was paying the bills, that was about all it was doing. I was making significantly less money and saving very little. I was getting pressured by the company to move closer to Michigan City and I really didn’t want to relocate. The dolly had no intention of moving out there with me should this ever move have ever come about. My issues were taking their toll on both the relationship and me.
My high school reunion was also coming up. I wasn’t happy in my employment situation. My romantic relationship was rapidly going south. My financial situation was barely adequate. I wound up passing on the reunion. I wasn’t satisfied with my present state of affairs and had little desire to meet up with people I hadn’t seen in a long time only to see them doing better. I needed a change.
I decided I really needed to find another job; one that paid better and one that returned me to the seat as an Engineer as soon as possible. So out came the resume again, which was updated and sent out. I obtained a copy of “The Pocket Guide of Railway Officials.” This book had names, phone numbers and addresses of numerous officers of most railroads. The title of the book is quite the misnomer as the only person whose pocket it could possibly fit into would be that of Paul Bunyun. I referred to it as my giant book of leads. I made probably hundreds of phone calls and sent out dozens of resumes, including one to the Alaska Railroad. The results were less than desired as I received numerous “rejection letters” as I called them. I joked that I understand how aspiring writers feel when they get such rejection notices from publishers they are trying to convince to publish their manuscripts. I was caught up in a period of downsizing in the rail industry. Finding another job was not going to be easy.
But I kept plugging away looking for a better job. My friends told me this search was pointless and to just accept the fact I would wind up staying at the South Shore until I retired. It got discouraging at times, but I didn’t give up the search. I knew at some point it would pay off.
But in the meantime, I was still gainfully employed. The South Shore was keeping me in my house which beat the heck out of perhaps living in a Maytag box behind the 7-11. And I wasn’t living on macaroni and cheese.
Engineers on the South Shore had a method of stopping coal trains called “precision big hole.” This was a calculated manner of using an emergency application to stop at coal train short of the switches at Bailly or Power. These guys would roll the train along like normal, but when it came time to stop, they would use an emergency application instead of the normal method of service braking to stop their trains at the above named switches. The key was to know exactly where to dump the air so as not to get by the switch. If the train stopped close but didn’t get passed the switch, it was considered a good stop. I have worked no place else where the Engineers made such stops and then took pride in such a method of stopping a train.
And if you overshot the switch (which did happen on occasion), once the air was recovered, the train would have to be shoved back far enough to clear the switch so that it could be lined and you would head into the plant.
One Engineer there once told me “An Engineer on the South Shore can work anywhere.” I started laughing and told him that no railroad anywhere would put up with such train handling methods as precision big hole. In fact, this method was not allowed anywhere else and they would likely be fired if they tried it. I also told him I knew of several Conductors and Brakemen who would likely have thrown them out the window if they used this method of stopping with them.
And yes, I did change a couple of knuckles thanks to this bizarre method of train handling.
While I don’t fault them as they were never taught most of what I knew, I was amazed at how little South Shore Engineers knew about the locomotives. In one instance, an engine died at Burnham while we were preparing to double up a coal train. The Engineer called the Dispatcher to report the problem. The Dispatcher said there would be no time for a Carman to drive out to get the engine restarted so we would go with two units and only two thirds of the train. I thought this was bizarre so I asked the Engineer why he didn’t just go back and restart the locomotive. Came to learn, he did not know how.
So I took him back there and explained the procedure to him and we quickly and easily restarted it. He seemed genuinely amazed that I knew how to do this. He even asked me if I used to be in locomotive repair. I explained to him that on all other railroads, student Engineers are taught how to start locomotives before they ever get the opportunity to run them. Hell, most Brakeman can start them as well.
I discovered there was a great deal about these locomotives some of the South Shore Engineers did not know about or understand. All they were taught was how to make them (and trains) move and stop. They didn’t even know the proper way to read an amp gauge. All newer EMD power uses a gauge with a graph and single digit numbers. On the face of the gauge is the notation, “X100.” This means you take the number and multiply that times one hundred to equate the amperage rating. Most of those guys thought if the amp gauge needle was pointing to the 6, it meant the locomotive was loading six amps. I explained this to a couple of guys and again, they were amazed.
I showed a couple of them how to reset the low oil button on the governor and the low water button. They knew virtually nothing about these simple little cures. To me, this was routine knowledge we were required and expected to know. To these guys, it was like I was performing magic. They thought only people from the mechanical department knew this stuff.
I watched the way some of these Engineers ran freight trains here and decided these were not the guys I wanted to train me out on this property. More resumes went out, including to railroads that already had said sorry, not hiring. Maybe that persistence thing will pay off again. If this didn’t work maybe it was getting to be time to start offering sacrificial lambs or something to the railroad gods to get me the hell out of there.
I wasn’t crazy about working passenger and preferred the freight side of operations. Not all Engineers did the precision big hole thing, there were some that, all things considered, were pretty good. Freight service also paid more than passenger. The down side was I was working on the ground instead of running an engine and I wasn’t really happy about that. Again, another drawback was less money overall; I was making about a $40 per day less in pay.
For those who believe that you can get by on less money, especially significantly less money, you are wrong. I still had the very same amount of bills. The house and car payments were not reduced to correspond with my making less money. NIPSCO didn’t feel sorry for me and charge me less money for my gas and lights. And the cost of eating certainly didn’t get any cheaper.
I got bumped out of freight as I had mentioned earlier and was able to hold a passenger combination as a Collector. Collector assignments could work split shifts whereas Conductors and Engineers could not. A split shift had you working a train into Chicago in the morning, deadheading back on the 8:37am train back to Shops Yard to tie up. You would then catch the 2:25pm train Back into Chicago and work an evening rush train back to Shops and tie up. It was too far of a distance (about 40 miles) for me to drive back and forth between Griffith and Michigan City twice a day, so some days I stayed downtown. Cabbie had an old car (which we dubbed “the Batmobile”) that he started to keep at Hegewisch. So on the deadhead back to Michigan City we would frequently get off at Hegewisch instead of going all the way through. We would head over to Cabbie’s or Marty’s house and do something there or maybe catch a nap. We would often do all sorts of stuff fun as we had mobility. On occasion, Cabbie would let me take the car and I would head back over to my house for awhile and get some things taken care of around there.
The split shifts were tough as they made for very long days for me. So I frequently used the layover time in the split to get some sleep. I wasn’t getting enough sleep at night. The splits had me getting home late and leaving early. I was getting up before four and getting home well after seven and still trying to have some sort of life, so I caught up on sleep during the day. I would cop some Z’s on the sofa at Cabbie or Marty’s house.
Not all the collector jobs were splits and from time to time while I was on the extra board, I would catch one that worked early and finished by late morning, or started in the mid afternoon and ended in the evening. I usually could not hold one of these assignments regularly though. Normally the splits were pretty much all I could hold as a regular assignment.
As I had mentioned previously, the South Shore was becoming highly successful at increasing passenger levels. Trains were jam packed and frequently late. The passengers didn’t care that we only had so much equipment to go around and no funds available to obtain more. By the time we reached Hegewisch, there were usually no seats left at all and everybody that boarded here had to stand. They were often stuffed into the vestibules and standing three deep in the aisles. I know these folks were just thrilled to be paying for the privilege to be standing for thirty minutes. Well actually, a little longer as the trains were frequently tardy. We frequently heard them speak of the pleasure they got from standing, stuffed in there like sardines.
In late 1985 the new schedule came out. This schedule added a Hegewisch turn train to alleviate some of the overcrowding. This new train would give some of the suffering Hegewisch people a chance to actually sit in a seat for which they paid. Service was also expanded in other aspects as well, including additional South Bend service. Time was also added to the schedule of every train as well. This would allow for more dwell time at each station to accommodate the increased passenger loadings. Trains suddenly started operating on time quite frequently instead of every so often. Of course, this all came at a cost. Prior to the improved service, there was a fair increase.
The fare increase was really popular, about as well received as that proverbial fart in church. Never mind it was the first increase in years, people didn’t care. They felt they should pay the same rate forever. We would get bitched at about the increase. Some people suggested we take a cut in pay to keep the rates the same. A few of them even complained thinking we were overpaid. They erroneously believed we were making $150,000 a year. I explained to them we made nowhere near this much. I also explained that there had not been a wage increase in well over a year. I also tried to explain that the cost of their tickets did not come close to covering all of the expenses of running the railroad. Their ticket prices didn’t come close to the break even point for the cost of providing the service.
They didn’t care though.
Some of those making the complaints about our wages wound up getting a grilling back from me. I asked every one of them if they had received an increase in their wages this past year, and then if they had one for each of the three years prior to that. Almost every one of them said they had. I explained that if they received adjustments to their wages which increased their pay, didn’t they think that they would eventually have to pay more for the goods and services they purchased? Most of them didn’t want to hear that.
So then came the complaints about service. Yes, we were late more often than not. Some folks felt that we should not be allowed to increase fares unless service got better. This was almost hopeless as there was no explaining to some that the money was needed to increase the service to make it more dependable and to allow for a chance at a seat on a regular basis. Sort of like the dog chasing its tail.
A few were totally obstinate and demanded wage concessions on our part and were threatening to write letters to encourage it. I finally asked them if they felt they would be better off driving. I had them calculate the high cost of parking, the gasoline, the wear and tear on their vehicles, tolls charged if they took the Indiana Toll Road and Chicago Skyway and of course, the stranglehold of traffic that makes up the morning and evening rush of Chicago and Northwest Indiana. And there is no dollar figure you can use to calculate the savings of time of the train over driving. Even with the fare increase, it was still cheaper to ride the train.
To those that were still adamantly opposed, I finally got fed up with them and suggested they just go ahead and drive instead of taking the train. Not exactly good PR but I was really getting tired of hearing all the bitching and moaning. A couple actually did take up my suggestion. The following month they returned to the train.
Conductors and Collectors on the South Shore made a commission on the cash fares they cut. We received 8% of each fare we sold. We would receive a check twice a year, in April and November if I recall correctly, that paid our commissions. Some patrons thought this was unfair, again with that overpaid thing. South Shore employees made considerably less than what Metra paid their people. Metra employees did not receive the commission and they still made more. This commission was actually an incentive to make certain you sold as many tickets as possible. You didn’t want to let riders sneak on and ride for free.
I became a hawk at collecting fares. I talked at length with one Collector, Dickie Knoll about collecting fares. Dickie was a well-seasoned veteran of the South Shore and knew pretty much every trick in the book in how to catch cheats. He taught me all of them. In time, I discovered a few others as well.
Some regular monthly fare holders used to cheat by passing their monthly ride passes between them. I learned what to look for to catch this practice. Whenever I caught somebody engaged in this scam, one of them involved got charged a cash fare. In several cases, I confiscated the ticket being passed and turned it in with an incident report to the Manager of Passenger Services. I got called all sorts of names by the cheaters for catching them and taking their ticket. Hey, this is theft of service. The railroad could prosecute them for this if they so desired.
Two people would chip in and purchase one monthly ticket to pass between them. The monthly passes at that time were referred to as “flash cards.” There was nothing to punch on them, the rider just presented them or “flashed it” to you. If I suspected some sort of fraud, I would ask to see the ticket up close and examine it. In more than one instance, the two involved in the scam would cut the ticker in half and use it as a bookmark. When I saw half a ticket sticking out of their book, I would request them to pull it all the way out. If they refused, I would casually reach down and pull it out myself. If it was only half a ticket, I would confiscate it and charge them a cash fare.
In other cases if I thought somebody was passing it to another, I would ask for the ticket and punch it with my ticket punch. I kept very close track of whose tickets I punched and whose I didn’t. If I got a ticket from somebody that was punched and I knew I didn’t punch it, I knew I was dealing with some fraud. I worked out ways to catch the folks and usually always did.
One morning I caught a husband and wife team cheating us. I was getting suspicious when one of them always could not seem to locate their ticket every morning or every evening and asked for me to return in a minute. I watched them carefully one morning and saw one passing the pass to the other. I grabbed it, charged one of them a cash fare and turned it in with a report.
Some folks used to purchase monthly tickets to a zone or two shorter than they traveled. For example, travel between Hegewisch and Downtown Chicago was zones one and three. The Hammond-East Chicago zone was four. Gary-Clark Road-Ambridge was zone five and so on. The lower the zone number, the cheaper the ticket. So some folks would purchase a 1-3 zone monthly, but actually ride between East Chicago and Downtown. They rode further but paid no more than a Hegewisch rider.
To cover up their theft, they would often have the bottom portion of the ticket obstructed by something in the little holder many of them purchased to store their tickets. Again, Dickie Knoll pointed this one out to me. Another trick was hiding the bottom end of it in a book or magazine they were reading. And like with those sharing the tickets. I would either pull it out or ask the passenger to pull it out. If they were caught, I made them pay the difference. Again, they would call me all sorts of bad names.
In one instance I caught a woman riding from zone six to zone one with a Hegewisch monthly. She claimed she was only doing it this day and usually got on at Hegewisch. I guess she didn’t figure out that when you see the same faces day in and day out, you remember them and where they normally get on and off the train. When she was busted she used words that would make a sailor blush. I charged her a cash fare for the difference just the same. The tirade continued even more and, in front of a bunch of people I asked her, “And you kiss your husband and children with that mouth?” Shut her right up.
To beat the passing and sharing of monthly fares, NICTD came up with a fifty-seven ride monthly pass. We had to take this ticket and punch off one of the rides on it. People figured they could pass these as well. The average person works twenty-two days a month. This takes forty-four rides off a monthly ticket. That leaves thirteen unused rides. Some of them quickly did the math and figured they could share one of these and the other person could obtain a twenty-five ride pass (sold at a discount over one way fares) and use that to make up the shortfall.
I caught onto this pretty quick and got creative. To those I suspected of cheating the system, I would take their ticket and fold it all up. I would then punch one of the rides towards the top of the ticket. When they would ask what I was doing, I would usually respond something like, “Oh just being silly and having some fun.” Like with the flash cards, I kept track of which tickets I did this creative punching. In short order, I caught several people doing sharing these tickets.
Some folks would board the train and then immediately go hide in the restroom. If they were in there for more than what I considered a reasonable time, I would knock on the door and ask them to step out. If they refused I announced I was coming in and would unlock the door and open it up. I caught quite a few cheats here. I think they were shocked when I walked into the restroom and then made them pay. No, I never walked in on anybody taking care of personal business.
I was actually called all sorts of names by some passengers for being such “an asshole” (one passenger’s exact words). I explained that dodging a fare was theft. By their not paying, they were taking advantage of all the patrons that did dutifully pay their monthly fares. In retail stores this would be shoplifting. And those that rode for free were one of the reasons fares had to be increased; we were hauling some people gratis. Others actually applauded my efforts as they felt they had to pay and appreciated my efforts to make others pay as well. There were even some passengers that were more than happy to tip me off to cheats when they realized I was trying to make certain everybody paid their fare share.
One evening I had a very well-dressed gentleman that refused to pay. He complained that the train was late and that we failed to make good of our advertised times as listed in the timetable. I attempted to explain to him that the times indicated are not guaranteed. I even showed him that very disclaimer in the fine print at the bottom of the page. I went on to explain to him that we only guarantee to get you from here to there; we don’t guarantee to do it on time. The times listed in the timetable are targets that we strive to achieve. This was an exercise in futility though. He didn’t care and refused to pay. Did I mention that he also seemed a bit intoxicated?
With that I went to the radio, contacted the Dispatcher and requested the police for assistance. Some Conductors didn’t want to be bothered with such problems and told me to deal with them myself. So I did and would contact the Dispatcher if I had problems that required outside assistance. This evening the railroad police met us at East Chicago and I led them to the customer. He was even more difficult with the law than he was with me including using some very foul language. He was told that if he refused to pay they would remove him from the train and take him to jail. Again he refused so they placed him under arrest. He refused to stand up, so they pulled him from the seat. He refused to walk, so they dragged him down the aisle and then the stairs of the car. He was yelling and fighting them the entire time. He was hauled off to the crowbar motel to contemplate the events he had just perpetrated. I filled out a report when I got in and never heard another word about it. I never did learn if they sent him up the river or not over this affair.
I suppose when he got the joint and they found out it was for refusing to pay for his train ride, all the other convicts would want nothing to do with him. Sort of like Arlo Guthrie telling the story being arrested for being litter bug in his song “Alice’s Restaurant.”
The longer I worked at the South Shore the more savvy I became about dealing with customer complaints. If the customer got to obstinate, I dealt with them in the appropriate manner. I would never use foul or obscene language with them even if they used it towards me, but I was firm and direct. In more than one instance I offered them a ride in police car if they continued. You’d be amazed at how quickly this opportunity can change a troublemaker’s attitude.
I would frequently give them the name and phone number of the Manager of Passenger Operations if they had big complaints. I had no part of the decision or policy making process, so I figured why should I have to deal with the complaints about them? Let those in charge deal with it. Call it my version of delegating duties. Or maybe it was my way to pass the buck.
We would get the occasion over-indulger who became obstinate as well. On one occasion I was working an extra train. Taste of Chicago or some other huge event was going on in Chicago, so extra trains were operated to accommodate the patrons to and from these events. These trains were usually very crowded and oftentimes at the end of the evening, some of the passengers were rather intoxicated. On this night in particular, one of the other Collectors was having problems with several guys. They were belligerent and causing all sorts of trouble, including smoking on the train, which was not permitted.
After several warnings, including threats of being removed from the train, these guys continued their antics. The Collector requested the help of the Conductor and me. The Engineer was notified to stop at the next station so we could put these three off. It was not a scheduled South Shore stop, but this evening it became one. We removed them from the train at 75th Street in Chicago and left them there. This was not a particularly good place for them to be let off the train, especially at night.
One Conductor told me a story of some drunk giving him all sorts of trouble one evening. The guy wanted to fight him and even took several swings at him. He put the guy off at one station and the guy was still trying to fight. The Conductor said this was his chance to even the score. Even as the guy was being removed he was trying to fight the Conductor. The Conductor told me of giving the guy several good punches to the face and then tossing him to the platform before the train pulled out.
While I never actually got into a fist fight with a passenger, I did have several altercations. None of them led to anything other than my informing them of their impending arrest should they try to carry out their threats. We were not supposed to strike a passenger, but in the case of self defense, I don’t believe I would have been able to restrain myself. You hit me, I’m very likely gonna hit you back. And if I should have my ticket punch in my hand at the time, too bad for you. One of the old heads taught me to always have that punch in my hand if I were to encounter trouble with a passenger. One character did threaten to punch me and I told him he would be arrested if he did. He didn’t seem to care about incarceration so I told him he would get hit back and very likely harder than he hit me. And then he would be arrested.
Some passengers would try to “big bill” you early in the morning trick. Knowing that you didn’t have a large amount of cash, they would give you a $50 or $100 bill for a cash fare first thing in the morning. Of course you didn’t have enough cash on hand to change it. At first, I would tell them I would come back to them. Oftentimes they would then vanish and wind up getting a free ride. This was the reason they pulled this stunt. I quickly learned a great trick. Take their big bill, give them a hat check with your punch and an IOU in the amount of change you owed them and tell them you would be back later with their change. It was amazing how quickly they would discover a smaller bill.
One afternoon I was working the 2:25pm train into Chicago from Michigan City. This train carried the Collectors deadheading into the city for the evening rush and they normally rode in the very rear car. Some guy boards at Ogden Dunes and needs to purchase a cash fare. He gives me a $100 bill for a $4.35 fare. When I asked if he had a smaller bill he told me he “needed the change.” I’m guessing he figured it said “Currency Exchange” on my hat instead of “Collector.” I took the C note and told him I would be back in just a couple of minutes with his change.
You want change, I’ll give you change. Change is good,
Quickly, I headed back to the rear car where the deadheads were riding. I immediately checked with everybody back there and got as many singles and pennies that I could from them. When I returned to the passenger I proceeded to count out his $95.65 in change; 95 singles and 65 pennies. The look on his face was priceless. He started to protest and I reminded him that he was the one who told me that he “needed the change.” I’ll bet he never tried to pull that stunt on anybody again.
At the end of every day, we were required to turn in an envelope that contained our daily activities, what trains we worked and how many cash fares we cut. If there were any voided tickets, those had to be included as well as all the one way, twenty-five ride and ten ride tickets we collected as well.
There was a woman whose job it was to reconcile all these envelopes. On occasion you might have made an error in addition or subtraction. As a result, there would be either an overage or a shortage; with the latter seemingly more common than the former. For either you would get a slip with the amount of the overage or shortage. You would submit this slip with your cash remittance. If you had a shortage, you would have to make up the difference. If there was an overage, you used this as a credit towards your remittance.
It seemed like all of a sudden I was getting a lot of shortage slips. And some of them were for a significant amount of money. I was pretty meticulous about my addition and subtraction, so it seemed rather odd. So one day I went to a Trainmaster and had him pull these envelopes to check them. A thorough examination showed that I was not short. In fact, in a couple of cases I was actually over and they owed me. They pulled a bunch of other envelopes and found discrepancies in them as well. It seems that the women working them up was making all kinds of mistakes and covering them up by charging us for her shortfalls. We were literally paying for her mistakes and ineptness. As a result of their investigation of her activities, this woman was disqualified from the job.
We had a great deal of female passengers riding the trains. I was once told the figure was something like 70% of our ridership was woman. Many of the South Shore transportation employees were married (sometimes more than once) to women they met on the train. While I was very involved with this one dolly when I first started at the South Shore, the relationship was deteriorating. When this romance finally went the way of the five cent cigar, I was then free to make the rounds and did.
I dated several of the women that I met on the train. In a few cases, I was seeing a couple of them at once. Let’s see now, working lots of hours, getting little sleep during the week and trying to juggle several women at once. It’s amazing I didn’t die at a young age. It’s even more amazing I never got caught by any of them.
The South Shore is where I met the beautiful bride. It happened one rainy morning while I was working a train into Chicago. It was not exactly a magic moment, but it led to more conversation and eventually a date, and then more dates and well, the rest is history. I guess it was the hopelessly out of date and not quite tailored to fit uniform along with my irresistible charm.
There were downsides to of all the women on the train. I know that’s hard to believe but it is true. Some the guys wound up in divorce court as a result of their being overly polite and cordial to some of the women passengers. In my case though, part of my past caught up with me. Some dolly that I had one time dated showed up on the train. This relationship ended with a rather rough landing. Well, maybe more like a crash landing of which there was only one survivor. I believe she said something to the effect of “I hope you die a slow, horrible, painful death!” when we parted ways. I have such a way with women. It’s a gift.
Anyway, this little dolly shows up one morning on my train. I saw here quite a few times after that. I was always polite and wished her a good morning. At first she ignored me and looked away. After awhile she warmed back up to me. Instead of her total disregard for me, I started to get sneers and dirty looks back. Once she muttered some comment that I cannot repeat here in our family forum. I think she still cared. But I could be wrong
Some of the women riders used quite the antics in their attempts to talk to us away from the railroad. There were a few women I wasn’t interested in, but they were interested in me. They would try to obtain your home phone number in order to call you. They might ask fellow employees for it. One friend told me of the Dispatcher calling his house one evening having a woman on the other line telling him she needed to talk to this guy ASAP. YIKES! In my case, one woman was rather persistent and also called the railroad. She gave the Dispatcher some sob story about it being an emergency or something terrible and how she absolutely, positively needed to talk to me as soon as possible. This yahoo just gives out my number and she then called me.
I was shocked to hear from her. Although very polite, I rebuffed her advances. I also asked how she got my home number as I was unpublished and unlisted. She told of calling the Dispatcher and giving him some story in order to get my number. She called me several times after that even though I expressed no interest in seeing her. She would leave strange and bizarre messages on my answering machine.
Right after this woman called the first time, I called the Dispatcher. He freely admitted giving out my number and I gave him an earful. The following day I discussed this situation with the Trainmaster who addressed this issue in a more formal manner. This Dispatcher got a major ass-chewing. From that point on, this guy and I were constantly at odds. It actually became a battle.
From time to time this guy would work as “Acting Assistant Trainmaster.” This normally only occurred when a regular Trainmaster was on vacation. He would try to catch me doing something wrong so that I would be written up and get a letter of discipline or something in my file, or perhaps maybe an investigation. I never got in any kind of trouble despite his efforts. However I managed to get him into hot water and screamed at again, this time by the Superintendent.
I caught a job as a Flagman one day in Gary. There was a construction crew working overhead on the Indiana Toll Road. They had a machine extending over and above the railroad. While they weren’t fouling the right of way, there was the possibility the machine could come loose and perhaps drop down into the path of an approaching train. The Foreman of this project explained this all to me and suggested that I have the trains pass through the area at reduced speed, just in case. He also said this machine had broken loose in the past. Hmm, don’t have to hit me in the head with a pipe to prove it will hurt.
So I was contacting all the approaching trains and advising them to operate at restricted speed through the work area. After a couple of trains passed through the limits, my radio decided to act up. It would not transmit very far, maybe 1500 feet or so tops so I needed to come up with a way to make the trains aware of my presence. For whatever reason, there was no notification given to any of the trains of my flagging limits. So, I followed the rules, I set torpedoes out to bring the trains down to restricted speed. When they got within the short range of my radio, I could give them the instructions.
This Dispatcher, playing the role of Assistant Trainmaster was riding one of the trains that I had slowed using the torpedoes. He questioned me over the radio as to why I was doing this and how I shouldn’t be slowing down the trains. I told him I was merely following the rules.
Later in the day when I was heading back on a train to Shops Yard to tie up, this guy (we’ll refer to him as the yahoo) happens to be aboard that train. I was up on the head end with the Engineer talking to him about my radio conversation earlier in the day with this yahoo. As it would happen he comes up to the head end and starts reading me the riot act about slowing down the trains thus, delaying them. He wouldn’t let me get a word in edgewise but just continued his tirade. There were two issues here of which I took exception, his tearing into me and then, doing it front of somebody else instead of dealing with the issue one on one.
Unbeknownst to me, when we got in the Engineer on the train went in and spoke to the Superintendent about what this yahoo had done and said. I discovered this fact when I went over to discuss the day’s events at length with the Trainmaster. I had been harassed by this guy for doing exactly what the rules prescribed. When I walked into the office, I was approached by one of the officers who asked me about what this yahoo had told me. He wanted me to confirm the story. This was when I learned the Engineer had given him up. I was told this situation would be addressed. Within moments of our conversation, I heard the Superintendent screaming and yelling at the yahoo. I heard much of what was said and it was not pretty.
The next day this yahoo comes up to me like a little kid and says, “Thanks to you I got yelled at yesterday.” I laughed at him and told him that his own ignorance got him yelled at and not me. He went storming off like a four year old. I should mention this guy successfully managed to get himself into all kinds of trouble both before I arrived and then again after I departed from the South Shore. Eventually he was dismissed, not to return.
The South Shore employed the use of spotters on the passenger trains. Periodically people were brought in to observe the Conductors and Collectors performing their duties. Needless to say, they were incognito. We were not supposed to know who they were. We would be observed for appearance, courtesy, ability to handle situations and our financial dealings. They had a checklist of items with which to rate us. In some cases, they might purchase a cash fare. They may have boarded at a station with an open ticket office. If a ticket was purchased on the train when the passenger boarded at such a station, we were required to charge an additional fifty cents. They would observe to make certain we did just that.
As for the financial responsibility, they were also observing to make certain we were not stealing from the company. Yes, it did happen. It was known as “stuffing” fares. A spotter would make a notation of the cash fare number on their report. Each fare has a number stamped on it. The spotter will often leave their cash fare receipt on the seat when they exit the train.
To submit a voided cash fare, both portions of the ticket, the audit stub normally turned in by the employee and the receipt portion normally given to the customer must be presented with the word void written on them. On occasion, an employee has been known to pick up the customer’s portion left on a seat, match it up with their half and then void it and submit it as a voided cash fare. This fare now does not exist even though it was cut, the passenger paid for it and they received their transportation. The employee then keeps the cash for themselves as the fare appears to not have existed in the first place. The passenger rides and pays, employee keeps the cash and the company loses.
The day the spotter observes an employee, that employee’s envelope is checked for voided tickets. Should a voided ticket be part of that day’s collections, this fare is checked against the number of the cash fare issued to the spotter. Should this ticket show up as a voided fare, further action may likely be taken against the employee.
Spotters might be assigned to watch a specific employee if they are suspected of engaging in activities contrary to the policy, especially if the suspicion is theft. From time to time an employee is suspected of stealing and the company will have spotters watch the individual. And yes, these employees do manage to get themselves caught and disciplined. The discipline for theft is generally dismissal.
“Go directly to jail; do not pass go, do not collect $200.”
Some Conductors and collectors were using the company funds for their own purposes. They did not remit in a timely manner. I heard of some that were hundreds in debt to the company as they spent the money and then didn’t have the cash to remit. So they were constantly in arrears. Many of these guys liked to gamble and were pretty successful in losing the company’s money. This was why there were some that stuffed cash fares, to try to make up some of the money they lost. I did not fall into that trap, easy it was. I figured I was not going to get into debt to the company and have to concoct a way to come up with the cash, especially a way that could get me dismissed.
While there are plenty more stories and episodes from my South Shore days, I will save them for another time. And with that we draw this lesson to a close. Be sure to study carefully as there will be a test. And yes, neatness and spelling will count.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, © 2003 by JD Santucci
URL at http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/nyc-tok0812,0,4527815.story?coll=ny-linews-headlines
Peace,
ANDEE
Five blocks? That's AWFUL! I didn't know, I'm sorry. I guess my longest was similar to yours. For six months once I had to walk 1.5 long blocks and 3.5 short blocks.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Aw, gee..... it is a ONE MILE walk from our front yard to our back fence.
AND YOU GOTTA WALK AROUND THE LAKE TOO!
sheesh!
If they're going to save $2.3 million with this, can they at least turn the lights to the bridges back on?
The truth is the booths that are to be closed are only open a few hors a day anyway.
I see the booth closings as a service improvement. More access to the entrances and exits in question
Plus statistics released recently showed over 50% of all riders were taken on unlimited ride mobthly and weekly pases. That means fewer overall fare transactions. Plus a 40% month over month increase in subscrition transitchek metrocards via payrole deductions. the booths that are to be closed are rush hour booths. The days of the average commuter buying 3 or three rides at a time are over.
The MTA needs to close at least 100 more to account for the drop in overall fare purchaces in station.
Weird, that press release is dated for after the side platform opened, but it is written as if the platform hadn't opened yet. Whatever.
So, how anyone ridden through this station yet? Anyone used the platform? Comments? Anything? Pics? I'm craving some side platform action.
1) Overnight?
2) Midday?
3) Peak?
4) Weekend/Holiday?
Including SIRT
Excluding 42nd Street, Frankln Avenue & Rockaway Shuttles
As for peak, I believe it is the G, which always runs a trainset of 8 R46's.
David
G's normal configuration is 4-6 R-46 MU's.
No, it's the same as a train of 2½ R-32s.
I believe you. Someone else was in the State House at the time.
The real reason you hate the new cars is that you CAN see out the front?
Peace,
ANDEE
a) guess the psychosis of your seatmate.
b) avoid the guy staring at you and smiling at you.
c) what is that guy who just walked in from the car ahead going to do?
d) what's that smell?
And from that motorman background, it's always nice to see the sights that were most familiar and see what's changed. I grew up in a time when there was NO air conditioning, foamer glass for the taking, and knowing where I was and when I was about to get there so I could move to the doors to hop off.
I must admit, I *do* like the 143's ... a little handle time while they were being tested hit the spot for me. Maybe I'd like some of the others as well if I had a chance to run them and feel them out. (fat chance) ... :)
4 SD-60's ...
40 - 50 cars of propane ...
30 - 40 cars of CORN SYRUP from CPC ...
60 - 70 cars of ConAgra IOWA/NEBRASKA grain hoppers ...
If it derails ... popcorn! Any QUESTIONS?!?!
??????????.......lol......lol........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)
TRUST me, this is CSX ... Popcorn HAS been served! Film extra. Heh.
As a Catholic, I was born and raised in the horrors of the Fatima Letter and Book of Revelation. Here's Shrub and here we are, INSTANTLY in the "end times" ... boy, am I glad I'm over 50 ... I won't be ALIVE when it all comes to pass ... whew! But YOU guys ... woof! Best get religion, and the REAL thing ... damned fast. We've got Tammy Faye republicans leading now, and they INSIST on making Armageddon HAPPEN (as if WTC wasn't enough) :(
VOTE Party of God ... whoops, the OTHER god ... with the red robes and horns. Germany in the 30's ain't got crapola compared to OUR GOP.
wayne
And the R16-R38 did not?
The R-142 and R-142A have more differences than the cars from the 1950s and 1960s.
I decry the loss of paint (among other nostalgic things) ... while the pleasing texture of shiny stainless steel is a bauble over which New Yorkers can be proud, compared to hissing and grunting and groaning oldsters, all the better ... but I took GREAT joy in being given the opportunity to RUN those old prewar cars. They had PERSONALITY. The newer cars unfortunately lack such - and that's good for the riders, bad for those of us who remember trains as MACHINES, not a bunch of Woody Allen "Sleeper" style clones. I guess ya had to be there. Heh.
But let's be real - "personality" is not a word conjured up by subway cars anymore. Once upon a time they were real work ...
I'm serious ... can anybody back me up here on the dropout rate in MOTOR schoolcar? It's for REAL ...
But yeah, MY whole attraction to working the Arnines WAS influencd by HOPALONG CASSIDY ... "WHOA! Big fella!" ... Arnines were MACHINES. Brightliners were poosies. SMEE ... fagalas. :)
Once again (this one's been told before)
A Cork Radio Station (in Ireland), 96 FM, was running a competition to find contestants who could come up with words that were not found in any English Dictionary yet could still use these words in a sentence that would make logical sense. The prize was a trip to Bali for a week.
The DJ, Neil, had many callers; the following two standing out:
DJ: 96FM, what's your name?
Caller: Hi, me name's Dave.
DJ: Dave, what is your word?
Caller: Goan spelt G O A N, pronounced "go-an"
DJ: We are just checking that (pause) and you are correct, Dave, Goan is certainly a word not found in the English Dictionary. Now the next question, for a trip for two to Bali, is, what sentence can you use that in that would make logical sense?
Caller: GOAN phugg yourself!
At this point the DJ cuts the caller short and announces that there is no place for that sort of language on a family show. After many more unsuccessful calls the DJ takes the following caller:
DJ: 96FM, what's your name?
Caller: Hi, me name's Jeff.
DJ: Jeff, what is your word?
Caller: Smee spelt S M E E, pronounced "smee".
DJ: We are checking that (pause) and you are correct, Jeff, Smee is certainly a word not found in the English Dictionary. Now the next question, for a trip for two to Bali, is, what sentence can you use that in that would make logical sense?
Caller: SMEE again! GOAN fugg yourself!"
I'd really like to know, because it's quite clear from the postings of many people here that die-hard fans DO NOT all hate the new cars.
http://www.palter.org/~subway/69-xx-01/16.jpg
Eat your heart out, BMTman, I face east now and pray to the Iacocca. :)
They should have kept 5 redbirds in 239th Street yard for <5> service and G.O.s. Variety is good(and maybe 2 r-62s for (3) Bronx service to 238 or Dyre)
LONG LIVE THE BMT STANDARDS!
In addition to the new cars' ugliness, to ride in one of then is to experience a multi-faceted assault on the senses.
I don't know which is worse -- that incessant voice, or those interrogation-level lights. Very stress-inducing. (Makes me really long for the old days, when the lights would go completely out for seconds at a time.)
In order to ride comfortably in those new monstrosities, one needs dark sunglasses, and earplugs attached to a radio that is playing white noise.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I prefer the tan, the warm yellowish lighting (except I've seen an R44 using the bright white lights and they looked extrememly good), the unmuffled sound screeching wheels on turns and switches, and flats. And lack of screeching brakes.
....... Yea, you guessed it, the cars with the "Cingular Wireless" and "Absolut Orange" ads. It's cool how they finally added color to the ever so virgin R142 interiors.
The real report and photos to follow, eventually.
The following SubTalkers showed up:
Chapter 11 Choo Choo
David J. Greenberger
Jersey Mike
Wdobner
DTrain22
High St / Brooklyn Bridge
R30
chuchubob
We rode the following lines:
PATCO
MFL
Rt 11
Rt 100
R6
BSS
And attained the following speeds:
65
55
-
-
60
64
We saw the following sights:
New Frankford Terminal
Reading Terminal
City Hall
Suburban Station
Market East
Fern Rock
Norristown Transportation Center
69th Terminal and Shoppes
Love Park
Fern Rock
Pattison
North Philadelphia Station, Tower and Interlocking
North Broad Station
Subway-Way / CSX grade crossing in Darby
Rode the following interesting services
Subway-Way Diversion Rt on 40th St
Rt 100 Norristown Express
Broad-Ridge Spur
The last Express Train Soutn
Special Pattison Express Train
And encountered the following interesting events
PATCO service disruption caused by dead train at Woodcrest
PATCO 2-car relay move running express through Woodcrest and then comming back into pocket
New platform fish-bowl interlocking station at the new Fern Rock terminal
Demolition of old Bridge St station
Rush Hour parade at North Philadelphia Station
Leaving of camera on train
Recovery of said camera
69th St terminal shoppe tour
Yelled at over PA system at Fern Rock terminal
Learned that:
The westward station track and 5 track at North Philadelphia have been ripped up
North Philadelphia is really not a place to hang out
SEPTA has a serious train information/communications problem
Grey weather can really hamper photography
Chuchubob can really look old in certain contexts
Reading Terminal Market has seating in towards the center
Day Passes Rock
Regret that:
Our BSS train didn't loop the yard
Our Special Express got stuck behind a local
What's his name left his camera on the R6
There was no way to fit the PATCO train and that brilliant sky in frame
The only regret I had was that we missed a very scenic ride on the 101 trolley into Media, as well as a very interesting depot in Elmwood. The 11 trolley is pretty boring outside the 'grand crossing', sticking to Woodland ave like it does. The 13 and 36 are much more interesting, and Elmwood Depot is facinating, being almost completely exposed on the Island, Elmwood and 73rd St sides. However it affords no protection from the rain, and we would have been miserable there.
I guess I'll have to endear myself on some poor trolley operators, and then hope for some sort of retribution (hopefully positive, like a shop tour of Elmwood) for the next subtalk trip down here :)
Photo 1
Photo 2
Photo 3
Photo 4
Photo 5
Photo 6
Robert
At one point the TMNY was considering using the then existing SBW tracks along McDonald Ave. It was a fairly cheap solution because both trolley tracks and a 600 vdc supply existed.
They got the runaround from the City, after some initial encouragement. They finally took their trolleys and moved to Kingston.
Steel Dust
I can remember in the past it was often said that subway worker's life expectancies were lowered by their exposure to steel dust.
Having said that though, I also grew up in the soot when every apartment building had their OWN trash incinerators going, some all day long, and then the supers would haul ASH CANS out to the sidewalk where the wind would whip the ashes all over the block. Anyone remember THOSE? Far outdid the steel dust and everybody got a snootful of THAT stuff. Sure it's real ... but compared to so much WORSE pollution that abounded in years past, I suppose the subway's small (by comparison) contributions are a big deal today.
As far as the average rider goes, exposure isn't all THAT severe - the cars usually get aired out with doors open in surface yards and then sealed up with recycled body odor as they ply the rails. So even THERE, without open storm doors and subway windows, it's GOTTA be far less of an exposure than those of us who worked in it all day. Ever wonder why all subway cars (prior to the carwashes) used to be all "rust colored?" Ayupe - steel dust ... which formed a thicker, and more durable coating than PAINT and kept LoV's and Arnines and standards and multis protected from that which would have oxidized them. Got the steel dust instead.
I'm not trying to be snide or a wiseguy here - just wanted to point out the realities that may or may not have had a greater effect. I'll BET that in the end, when the chemanalysis is done, that the "gunk" found will likely contain more "composition brake shoe" detritus than steel dust ... after all, back in the days of cast iron brake shoes, more steel dust came from the BRAKE shoes than the wheels themselves, although both shaved each other into what became steel dust. With the "Buster Brown shoes" whatever they're made of, the composition has changed. Should be an interesting study.
Nissan's Game of Tag
This guy needs to lose the tassel shoes. The poster says it all. Anyone who looks at graffiti (I don't have a spellchecker; sue me) is going to splutter at this shite. poster
Willing to cut and paste? Security on our network won't allow that to run. I'd update my antivirus if I was you. HTML code there was lost at out firewall. :(
Sorry, Kev -- I'll Netscape-proof next time I see something. And I'll avoid the university-based downloads.
The days of webmasters who INSIST on using Microsift OFFICE Front Page and MSO9 tags instead of HTML are OVER ... if you put up a website and your hit counter reads ZERO after a month and all you get is AOL users, well ... I worked Burgers ... "LOT AND LOBBY" ... that's where you'll DIE. :)
The SVA subway ad in question:
And, if I read the article correctly, that ad runs exclusively in the subway. So nice of SVA to remind us all where "street art" belongs.
Although this story doesn't directly relate to subway cars and buses, the use of graffiti to sell cars was surprising and something to think about.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What a challenge for law enforcement. The RNC will certainly be international terrorist target numero uno (what other opportunity will there be to target Republicans and NYC at the same time). Then you'll have all kinds of left wing wackos (who seem to be making a comeback after having right wing wackos dominate the lunatic fringe for 20 years) trying to disrupt the proceedings.
Not much in favor of Bush and is party, but the man's got balls bringing this event to this city at this time.
Peace,
ANDEE
from NY State GOP website
Peace,
ANDEE
Now that was just one line. Maybe we shouldn't even try to imagine how much havoc those loonies might try to wreak on the many subway lines that stop at and near MSG. It will almost certainly be at least fifty times worse.
But yes, it's true -- while the details have not been decided, there will be major commuting headaches in/near North Station next year. At a minimum, commuter rail trains will stop at the northern end of the platforms -- with just a car or two platformed, and passengers will use a temporary bypass walkway around the station.
It's not clear yet whether the Green/Orange Line stations will be closed, open just for badged delgates, or open entirely.
It's a nothing walk to Haymarket. 2-3 minutes at most. All Green Line trains will be terminating there as construction should be going on with moving the Green Line under the FleetCenter [another obvious security concern].
But man, ain't no WAY with the disco dance party color wheel that I'd come anywhere NEAR the city while the "party of god" was in town. Nope. I head for the hills, dig out my Marine digger, and trench for all I'm worth when THAT sidewalk act's in town.
Too bad we have that rule. Otherwise I would nominate Ariel Sharon for U.S. President!!!
Too bad we have that rule. Otherwise I would nominate Ariel Sharon for U.S. President!!!
The Constitution says nothing about where a person has to be born. The Constitution requires that anyone born after 1789 be a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN. A person born in a foreign county to 2 US citizen parents is a natural born citizen. They can always change the law to make everyone a natural born citizen or they can dig up some lies about some foreigner's parents being US citizens and having visited the US.
All impossible except in your mindless rantings.
Demonstrations, etc., will have to be in designated times and areas so as to allow people going about their business reasonable accomodation.
Please look at your NYC subway map, the 9 line never operates on weekends and holidays. The announcement you heard on that #2 train was correct.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Also, there was no 9 service 9/12/01-9/15/02.
Does it really matter? Who is actually transfering to the 9 train intentionally anyway? Most of them just using the local service.(ie whichever train comes first)
Can they update announcments on existing trains? or are they permenant with the cars?
Every car goes through certain stages whether recognized or not. Birth --> Hatred by Railfans --> Respected --> Death
Every 10-20 years another car model arrives on MTA property either from the Docks of Brooklyn or through Fresh Pond. We look at it with anticipation, and sometimes despised without reason except that it's taking away a model from the past, making the older model obsolete and thus scrapping. Even when the redbirds came into being in the 1960's there were people who probably despised them as hard as that might be to believe, and the R-32 as well, probably the R-1 too feel to the same hatred and despised for it replacing many models. Most people were heartbroken when the D-types, triplexes and other El Models or models unique to 1 Division were gone, but then the models that took their place were inevitably respected for they were able to handle the job as well as the older model, it was just that railfans are ones who associate themselves with a certain technology and certain time frame. Those railfans from the past loved the feel of the train going 45-50 on the tracks, the motors loud and the train rocking back and fourth, with their faces glued to the railfan window watching the signals fly by. Now today the age of technology and car models are changing again. The Workhorse models with the Redbirds and 32 are leaving within 10 years. The R-142 were greeted were both with cheers and boo's because people loved the redbirds for not their looks but for their performance, sure during the 70's they only went 5,000 miles before they broke down but now they were on the verge of doing 100,000 between repairs, but their bodies were rusting away, and as much as us railfans loved the redbirds we knew it was their time to go, they have done their task and that is what forced the railfans both old and young to come to terms with the new Technology Trains, it's a far cry from a Low-V or even an R-46. The job of a train is simple to move us from point A to point B safely and comfortably, not to entertain the railfans as much as we wish it was that way. Every car model gets respect when they perform continuously and prove their worth essentially.
Every car model has to "die" essentially. The Redbirds while there will be massive deaths, some will still live, actually a lot will and when the R-32's pass on some will live of course. They will be there, just as when you go downtown you can still see the Triplexes resting in Court Street or go to Coney Island and see the Museum Fleet basking in the sun; it's done its duty now it just relaxes in the sun. While others that have taken the flaws of the previous models and put them to rest work the rails they once did. Sooner or later every model we are riding today will be in the Museum Fleet just as the models many of you as children rode on are now. That cannot change, as much as railfans would love to stay stuck in time, nothing is immune to the winds of change even train types, what we have to do now is just enjoy the ride, enjoy the differences, respect the changes and continue to do our little 4 stages of the subway cars life. "Birth --> Hatred by Railfans --> Respected by All --> Death"
Having said that, there is a lot of truth to what you say for many, but it's not always so. I (and many/most railfans) hated the R27s when they came in (which replaced BMT Standards) but liked the R32s from day one, even if we were unhappy they replaced the Triplexes.
Other equipment I liked when new included the PTC Almond Joys and the PA-1s on PATH. Didn't like losing the interesting old cars, but still like the new ones.
This is especially relevant to me as "Nostalgi Agonistes", with one foot in the past, and one in the present. It may be relevant to other SubTalkers with an interest in the past as well, perhaps especially the older and more mature ones like yourself.
People who believe that they/their city/their neighborhood is in decline will have a defensive "preservation" mentality, just hoping to hold back the deluge until they are gone. People who believe things are getting better are more likely to want things to change.
For the 40 years from 1960 to 2001, New York City was run by the sort of people who were moving out. Such people always thought the past was not only better than the present, but better than any possible future. Term limits pushed those people out the door, though they still whine on in "civic groups." The outmigrants still dominate the legislature, however.
In fairness, this process started under Koch.
Koch and Giuliani were both outsiders, and not representative of the city's prevailing political culture. Their two administrations were different, of course, but in each the Mayor was pushing change while the City Council, State Legislature, and Boro Presidents were fighting it.
Moving to the issue at hand, the physical city, both Koch and Giuliani had to fight, no always successfully, to have new buildings built and new businesses open. While you still have NIMBY elements there, you actually have some of the new local pols pushing for something to happen in some cases. That's different.
Regulator probes Alstom accounts
An extract:
“The US financial watchdog has launched a formal inquiry into accounting irregularities at one of the US units of France's Alstom.
The troubled French engineering group admitted in June that Alstom Transportation had "significantly" understated losses in connection with a railcar contract in New York.”
Does this story relate to a part of the R-160 order?
Alstom certainly seem to be in financial straits at the moment, with layoffs and plant closures happening in several locations.
One of the locations to be closed in the UK used to be the Metro-Cammell works in Birmingham, which made a large amount of London Underground rolling stock.
Andrew.
CG
http://www.eveningtribune.com/articles/2003/08/12/news/news02.txt
CG
Rats, I was hoping losses on NYCT contracts were being hidden in other contracts. Would have been nice if someone else got the short end of the stick for a change.
Given that this is the case, at least proper accounting for the R160 contract won't show a loss when Alstom makes a profit.
My interpretation after reading several of the articles on Alstom is that they also intentionally underpriced the NYCT contract and this is what the current SEC audit is expected to uncover.
Of course, if the MTA did indeed let Alstom off the hook in terms of bonding the job, well then they're going to get what they have coming.
CG
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
But the bailout is now being investigated by European Union officials as possibly being illegal.
That won't stop it, though. The British and the Germans have recently bailed out companies without getting EU approval first. The benefits of getting it done quickly far outweigh any penalties the EU can impose.
CG
Not bloody likely. Despite the heavy increase in ridership over the last five years, the number of commuters does not warrant such an expenditure.
I can only envision one scenario that has even the slightest chance of coming to fruition in my lifetime: digging up another pair of tunnels under the Hudson for the NEC; and building a connection between Main/Bergen, and the NEC, at Secaucus.
As far as GCT and the new 3rd level, its such BS. NYP is running at full capacity right now, with 9 lines serving it, on only what, 9 tracks at the max!? And GCT has only 3 lines and MNRR is whining about not having enough space on the lower level for LIRR ESA!? Whst the hell kinda BS is that!? GCT has got more than 100 tracks available for use! The lower level alone has 9 tracks! Why waste the money on a new level? When we have tri-state commuter rail service for the area(and I dont mean MNRR new haven line or any NJT operations, i mean like...greenport to trenton or phili), along with NJT, LIRR, and MNRR all at GCT, then a 3rd level would be worth it.
They may have tracks numbered in the hundreds, but they do not actually have that many tracks.
The 100 series tracks are for classification convenience (signifying lower level). MNRR has four main tracks which expand to a total of (I think) 29 or so (somebody correct me if I am wrong).
The real issue is making sure that LIRR doesn't interfere with the four main tracks. That would disrupt service on both railroads.
That is why ESA is designed the way it is.
Still, 29 terminal tracks is an enormous over-supply for the terminus of a four-track commuter line. Even running 60tph (and I don't think MNRR gets anywhere near that), that still allows an almost 30 minute dwell time for each train.
Surely it must be possible to engineer the new and existing approach tracks to keep the MNRR and LIRR trains out of each others way without building a whole new level of platforms.
You're missing the point completely. To use an analogy, it doesn't matter how big your mouth is if I try to shove too big a hamburger down your gullet. At some point it won't fit.
"Surely it must be possible to engineer the new and existing approach tracks to keep the MNRR and LIRR trains out of each others way without building a whole new level of platforms."
Actually, it would be MORE expensive. According to the March 2001 EIS, the new line under Park Av (2 additional tracks under the existing 4) would have to dive deep to miss existing subway lines. Bringing the LIRR back up to the existing lower level of GCT would require underpinning Metro-North's tunnels (ie building a new foundation under them) as well as underpinning Park Avenue buildings. Keeping the LIRR deep with a new third level, avoids these problems and reduces the cost of building the tunnel.
Elsewhere, a deep tunnel also saves the cost of underpinning buildings. Check out chapter 2 of the EIS.
So you see your plan would end up costing more money, not less.
Good analogy. But if your mouth is big enough and your gullet isn't, the most obvious solution is to widen the gullet, not create a whole new duplicate mouth and gullet.
Actually, it would be MORE expensive. According to the March 2001 EIS, the new line under Park Av (2 additional tracks under the existing 4) would have to dive deep to miss existing subway lines. Bringing the LIRR back up to the existing lower level of GCT would require underpinning Metro-North's tunnels (ie building a new foundation under them) as well as underpinning Park Avenue buildings. Keeping the LIRR deep with a new third level, avoids these problems and reduces the cost of building the tunnel.
Then the issue isn't interference between trains of the MNRR and LIRR, but rather the engineering and expenditure practicalities of getting the LIRR approach tracks into the existing lower level.
Which is a perfectly good reason, just not the one you previously proposed and I commented on.
Putting 2 new tracks under Park Avenue does exactly that.
"Then the issue isn't interference between trains of the MNRR and LIRR, but rather the engineering and expenditure practicalities of getting the LIRR approach tracks into the existing lower level.
It's BOTH. You can't run Metro-North and LIRR service on fouur tracks. Now, supppose you wanted to make all six tracks available to everybody - that would increase flexibility for everybody, but there again you have the issues of signaling, putting in a double-third rail system, etc. Signaling and third rail power are very expensive items. And then you have to underpin all the buildings and the tunnel.
Then there are political issues: do too much underpinning work and you end up pissing off too many property owners. This project has been NIMBY-free, and MTA wants it to stay that way.
Fine. Except we were actually discussing a third level of tracks (and presumably platforms) under Grand Central, not a second level of approach tracks under Park Avenue. Nothing I've said has suggested there would not need to be new approach tracks.
You can't run Metro-North and LIRR service on fouur tracks.
I didn't suggest you could. If you look at my original post, I was pointing out the mismatch (for a commuter line) between 29 terminal tracks and *only* four approach tracks. And I explicitly said "Surely it must be possible to engineer the new and existing approach tracks to keep the MNRR and LIRR trains out of each others way without building a whole new level of platforms.".
Now, supppose you wanted to make all six tracks available to everybody - that would increase flexibility for everybody, but there again you have the issues of signaling, putting in a double-third rail system, etc. Signaling and third rail power are very expensive items.
As I indicate in my original post (as quoted above) I don't think that is a good idea. The compatability and route conflict issue would over-ride the rather limited (only as far as the point the routes diverge) added flexibility.
My question was rather based on segregating the two routes, with some of the existing platforms dedicated to and served by the existing four MNRR approach tracks, and other existing platforms switched to dedicated service of the new LIRR approach tracks.
You have answered that question by your point on the difficulty and expense of getting the new approach tracks to the desired level. I'm fine with that answer.
Then those flashcards and updates DO come in handy...
Not all of us are in NYC, brah!
Please DON'T listen to this guy, and continue posting good information. The majority of us really appreciate it. Thanks.
David
And even among the people who DO read this board, the characterization of the Redbirds as "lovable" or any other sentimental word one can think of is not unanimous. I like the Redbirds as much as anybody, but they've served long and basically well, their bodies are rusting, and it's time for them to go.
David
Is that really your experience?
My experience on the R-142's is that they're generally quite cool as long as I position myself directly in the airflow from the HVAC unit, but otherwise they're nothing to write home about. I rarely ran into that problem on the R-33ML's.
In a category of their own are the meat lockers that run on the 1/9.
David
That floored me. So true, brah!
BTW, I think 9450-1 and some others went bye-bye last night...
Well that's the reality man, the # of Redbirds are going down and its BETTER for others to know how many are there in case they want to ride for one last time.
He starts with Eastchester, which includes streets not accessible from the city side. I think the NYTimes wrote a piece about this awhile back about how people who live there effectively are in a fancy Eastchester neighborhood but pay much lower NYC property tax. I wonder how they handle sanitation and schools?
This is a series I look forward to, because these transitions can be so interesting. Sometimes there are things you don't even think of, like out my way they say never get into an accident on County Line Road. The Nassau-Suffolk border runs down the middle and with the possibility of one car being in one county, and the other part in one and part in the other, the jurisdiction can be a little messy.
Also, I love the way he spiffed up his home page.
The place you are talking about is infamous as "politician row," home of many Bronx public officials who, either legally or for public image purposes, have to say they live in the Bronx, but are unwilling to actually live in the borough.
I believe on one side of the street the back yards are in Eastchester (I actually thought it was Pelham), allowing the children to attend non-city schools. Perhaps arrangements are made for the other side of the street.
Of course, the low city property tax is entirely offset, and then some, by the local income tax for anyone with a middle-class income or higher. Then again, I wouldn't put it past the politicians to be residents of Westchester for income tax purposes and New York City for property tax purposes.
The Times didn't think so.
As to the "backyards in Westchester" thing, when your property is in two jurisdictions, you typically pay some amount of tax to both. Very general taxes may be proportionally divided, but service-specific taxes usually go mostly to the servicing jurisdiction.
The school district thing is interesting. Having your backyard in Eastchester schools would not allow your kids to go there unless you're paying the Eastchester school district tax. Trust me, school districts do not willingly allow such freebies. Since school tax is the majority of the property tax in most every jurisdiction (except NYC, which doesn't have a separate school tax) this would defeat the entire tax purpose of living there.
As an aside, if your property falls in two jurisdictions, you typically don't get a choice of which jurisdiction to pay tax to for specific items. It is determined by where your main house (as opposed to, maybe a garage or outbuilding) is, or the proportion of property in each jurisdiction, or (if there is a school district split) where the bedrooms are! Or by intergovernmental agreement. Government tends not to be a matter of choice, except at the ballot box. Or maybe in California. ;-)
This is politician row, so anything is possible. Tick off those in charge, and the city could upzone the street to R10, built high-rise SROs, and locate its entire homeless population there.
About the closest I ever had to that was when I had a house in Babylon Village but was in North Babylon Schools. The fire service was supposed to be covered by BV, but the NB Fire assumed any job in the school district was theirs. We backed on a park and when there would be a fire and we called it in, it was always entertaining to see which fire district would respond first!
On the schools, we've never seen choice (except by fraud). People have gone to court to try to change their school district and the courts consistently refuse if the purpose is simply because you want a different school district for your kids. I'm talking that they wouldn't change the district even one house if you're on the border.
Of course (sort of on-topic), wanting to go to a better (outside of district) school was the story in A Tree Grows in Brooklyn.
Which only shows that NYC only provided an education to those who knew how to work the system even back then.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Another suburban vampire (sorry, couldn't resist).
Why not just live in Riverdale?
Of course, the low city property tax is entirely offset, and then some, by the local income tax for anyone with a middle-class income or higher.
I have some doubts about that, if I had the inclination I'd play with some numbers and see for sure.
I believe you mean the neighborhood of the Bronx called Eastchester. Some of its streets, sitting north of Pelham Bay Park, appear only to be accessible from the Village of Pelham.
I am very interested in this topic, since I grew up in Queens Village, near the City's border with Wrong Island (but not TOO close, thankfully). There are many cool issues to deal with when Kevin gets to that border! For instance:
* the City line running right down the middle of Jamaica Ave./Jericho Tpke., and the attendant controversy in which the uncultured boobs want to impose their jerkwater name on our City street
* the presensce of numbered streets and avenues on the wrong side of the border (for example, the corner of 239th St. and 95th Ave., entirely within Nassau)
* the mismatch of postal and political borders, which allows part of the Nassau's Floral Park post office (ZIP 110xx) to extend into the City, creating Nassau ZIP-code zones that cross the City line, in addition to one Nassau ZIP-code zone (11040) that lies entirely within the City
* the City line running through Wrong Island Jewish hospital, as well as the apartment complex just north of it
...and probably a few others.
Kevin, if I can be of any help when you get to that page, please let me know. I understand that you are a fellow bikesman, so maybe we can tour the area together.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Plus there is an interesting intersection in Mt Vernon, the intersection of South 5th Avenue(leads to Dyre (5) train) and West 5th Street(leads to Nereid Avenue-238th Street <5>) Follow 5th Street or 5th Avenue and you can get to the #5 train, lol
It's on the way.
www.forgotten-ny.com
How did these interlockings work? Was there a hand-throw switch somewhere along the ROW? Was it manned, or did the operator get out and throw it?
Girder rail switches were either manually thrown (with a switch iron) or at heavy places (like downtown) electric switches were installed. An electric switch is a regular girder rail switch, but an electric motor that was controlled by power on or power off while the trolley pole was passing through a contactor on the wire. Power on (one point) would set the point to the diverging (curving) route, power off would set the point to the normal (straight) route.
On T-rail (open) track, standard railroad switches were used, either with a ground throw or with the electric option.
That's the basics.
E-mail me if you want pics or other info.
If this screwed up somehow (or the switch was strictly manual) it was time to get out the old switchiron. "Don't leave the carbarn without it." :)
Is it correct to day that modern light rail systems have much more extensive signalling? I wonder what the costs and benefits of this are? Perhaps you can run longer trains with longer stopping distances at higher speeds, but it seems that light rail lines are very expensive. Enough to make one wonder about the value of the zillion miles of trolley track that were, in effect, thrown away.
To run modern, low riding trolley cars, you need new tracks built to more exacting specifications.
Or so I would assume.
Elias
Still, most current light rail systems do away with signaling when the trains travel surface streets, as the speeds seen there would not warrent it and moreover, cars are not part of the signaling system so the T/O needs to be ready to stop short of traffic anywho. The XO near the Rand Transit center in Camden laks any sort of interlocking signals, only indication lights as to switch position.
The interlocking plant includes not only the switches, but the tower and the interlocking machine.
Trollies never had automatic switches, ergo no interlocking plant.
It was seen and be seen and if two trollies got to the intersection at the same time, it would work the same way as if two motor busses got to the intersection at the same time.
The motorman would line up his route and then go.
Now they have already told you how some trollies worked. I was under the impression that the SF Muni used magnetic switches to operate the track switches. The electomagnet was under the car (probablu under the driver's seat for all I know) and there were "X"s marked on the pavement where the reed switches (or whatever) were. If he wanted a diverting route he'd stop over that X and turn on his magnet to throw the switch. Leastwise that is how I thought it worked.
and of course the switches were spring loaded, so you would just run across the trailing point switches.
Elias
"This morning Curtis Sliwa asked Traffic Reporter Debby Duhaim how to correctly say the name of the expressway in Queens. She said Metro received a letter from the Van Wyck family. It's pronounced Van WIKE."
The Subtalk connection to this story is obvious: there are two stations with that name in Queens. Old habits die hard, though. I'll probably always call it "Van WICK".
(I have enough trouble down here where I live with names: like Pulaski, which they pronounced PEW-laski; or Honaker, which they pronounce HOE-NAKE-ER, or Lebanon, which they pronounced LEB-NIN.)
The "correct" pronunciation of a local name is determined in only one way: by popular usage. It makes absolutely no difference how any Van Wyck decendant pronounces his/her surname today.
On top of that, you could probably find family members to argue for either pronunciation -- I have known a few sets of siblings who pronounce their surnames differently. A famous example is the two rock drummers Carmine Appice (uh-PEACE) and Vinny Appice (APP-pih-see).
Anyway, usage rules in these cases, so that's why it will forever be the "Van Wick"; and, furthermore, why that bridge on the BQE will always be the "Kos-ke-AH-sko". People who use other pronunciations will always sound like out-of-towners.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Except "Van Wike" is used roughly as much as "Van Wick."
It's been pointed out here in the past that the correct pronunciation of the name is "Fahn Veck." The correct pronunciation of the roadway is "Interstate 678."
Oh well. It's the family's fault for having such a strange name in the first place.
As for that bridge on the BQE....I've always pronounced it "KAH-ZEE-AHS-KO".
Wy not?
That's because it's Dutch.
There haven't been major Dutch-speaking communities in NYC for
hundreds of years, so it isn't surprising that pronunciation
drifted from Fahn Veck and became Anglicized. As to whether
the y translates to a long or short English "i" vowel sound
it can pretty much go either way. Witness the word stems
"pyro" vs "glyph". Likewise how the American branch of the
Van Wyck family says it today is really irrelevant. Even
the Roosevelts can't agree. Perhaps someone looking for a PhD topic
in linguistics could study the evolution of the pronunciation
of Van Wyck in the New York area.
I happen to say Van Wick but I wouldn't jump on anyone for Wike.
OTOH You-Ston street is inexcusable.
Now as for that famous bridge over the Newtown Creek, the situation
is slightly different. There is a large Polish-speaking community
in New York, in fact just a few blocks from the foot of the
bridge. Ask anyone there and they'll tell you: kos-ZHOO-skoe.
It's not very hard for English speakers to say that word correctly,
so I see no reason to disrespect the community of Greenpoint
by mangling it.
Oh, yeah, for the requisite Subtalk transit tie-in: there are great views of the POO-laski from the PATH train between Journal Square and Harrison. :-)
"Van Wyck"
:0)
--Mark
Robert
Correct; but many *signals* are equipped with event recorders, and these can pinpoint TW/O error when it occurs.
Ya know, there could have been several circumstances for what happened to happen? Was it an automatic? If it was the tower had nothing to do with it.
Could have been the tower. What time was it? Any time before late evening the tower has no reason to touch those signals.
Could have been an intermittent track circuit there.
Service Advisories are notices to passengers informing them of service chnages and intruptions usually generated by GOs
Not all GOs cause service disruptions. the MOD trips all have sets of GOs related to the trip, but it for the most part does not disrupt service.
And not all service advisories are in response to GOs! The flooding that you had resently probably resulted in Special Orders (yes?) rather than General Orders... They did not know that it was coming and did not plan for it, but once service was kaput, they had to make Special Orders to deal with it.
Generally, General Orders apply to the whole railroad (or at least to all the train on the affected lion) whereas a Special Order is directed to an individual train to do something different.
Elias
So other SubTalkers laugh at you ? Yes, it's unpleasant, but so what ?
Then what do you call the questions posed here that are asked over and over again by people who should know better, and/or the questions posed here that were answered within the last 24 hours and can be identified by the subject of that post? I call them stupid questions, and as such, deserve to be preserved on SubTalk Stupid.
What qualifies you to determine if people asking a question should "know better" ?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Places that implement light rail have one of two things: unused rail rights of way that can be converted, or enough surplus street space and little enough traffic for street running.
The only surplus trackage in NYC is the Bay Ridge Branch-New York Connecting Railroad, but it retains some freight service and many dream of adding more. So coverting it to light rail is a political no-no. And the streets are too congested for light rail to be much faster than a bus.
About the only opportunities I see are:
1. Fordham Rd/Pelham Parkway, if a could of more tunnels are dug to provide grade separation at Boston Post Rd and Webster/Third Avenue. But the merchants are already fighting the exclusive bus lanes, which cost them parking in front of their stores.
2. On a platform above the Bay Ridge branch, as part of a freight rail project. But using such a platform for BRT would allow a wide variety of Brooklyn bus routes to use it for part of their route.
3. Jamaica to LGA via Flushing. A better solution would just be to extend the Airtrain (but not for $5.00).
I had a dream that a light rail running on second avenue, if a separate lane were dedicated to the traction line ONLY. Furthermore, the light rail would only have limited stops making it far more quicker than the existing bus line.
What about the cars, taxies and Buses? Pretty simple. The can fight it out for the remaining space.
I also had a dream of a cross town light rail on 42nd and 34th streets. Wait. Don't call me crazy yet. We all know the cross town bus system travels at about 2 to 3 miles per hour at best. The current system is a failure as far as I'm concerned. A light rail with it's own lane would be a god send for commuters wanting to go cross town. The traction lines would run on a dedicated lane separate from motor traffic. The parked cars would have to go as there would be no space for both at the same time. It would not be a limited line but would stop at each block. This in my opinion, would be MUCH better than the system we have now where the buses get stuck in gridlock with the cars.
OH.. I forgot. What about the cars, trucks and taxies? Pretty simple. The can fight it out for the remaining space.
Now you can call me crazy.
LRT vehicles would still get stuck at the traffic lights at avenue intersections. Some arrangements could be made for signal priority, but that's only a limited solution.
Here is a crazy, radical idea: build the SAS like the green line in Boston. Part subway, part light rail.
Elias
This would put the stops every three blocks as well. they would stop just before crossing the thru street. When cars in both directions were ready to go, the street would be stopped, and the cars would move to the next stop.
These will be low-riding cars with handicapped access. They would be double deck cars with stairways serving an upper level. They will probably run in three car units. There would be an overhead trolley wire, and this is the reason for the double decker cars, so that this wire can be up high enough to permit any sort of traffic to pass under the wire.
There will be no fare on these cars. The presumption is that if you rode the subway into the CBD, then you already paid enough fare. It is a trade off, getting the traffic off of city streets, cleaner air, and a more human scale and pace to the city.
Elias
I'm not sure about a Broadway Trolley -- the 42nd Street light rail was defeated, in part, by fans of the M104 bus, which runs down Broadway and turns on 42nd Street. For those Upper West Siders who do not like the subway, it provides a one seat ride to both Time Square and East Midtown.
I like the pedestrian mall, however. Broadway is an "extra" street on the grid of north-south pairs from 59th Street to 14th Street, and Midtown is less pedestrian friendly that Downtown. In addition to wider sidewalks and seating areas, Broadway could have lanes for bikes/rollerblades and buses. Deliveries could take place overnight.
NYC was one of the first cities to embrace the bus whole-heartedly; they even had double-deck buses running on 5th Avenue long before even National City Lines came strolling in with their anti-trolley crusades.
One of the victims of the march against light rail was the Third Avenue Railway System, whose routes in Manhattan were quite unique in that they were third-rail powered. Ain’t no bringing back LRT, though, in the city that embraced buses long before many others…
http://www.baycrossings.com/Archives/2003/03_April/paving_the_way_for_buses_the_great_gm_streetcar_conspiracy.htm
It is possible, of course, that it was borrowed from a Bronx yard because the 7 had a train shortage at rush hour. But I don't work for the TA, so I don't know.
What do you TA employees think?
Peace
David
First of all he's clearly kidding. Stop jumping down his throat and taking it so seriously! And second of all I think he could have worded the text better to more clearly get his joke across.
til next time
Secondly, if you blow up the image of the 7 sign on the train, you'll notice that it is not really a 7, but more like a "T". Also, why was it in black and white? Makes it a whole lot easier to fake, that's for sure!
What school do you go to up there? If you went to mine, I'm ashamed.
Let me explain that one beofre I get flamed. How could one say that a lamp is proof of any particular location? And it looks like a "T"? The upper LEDs are slightly skewed, obviously a "7".
Get with it. It's a black and white fly fly pic...
Rmadillos look better in the "vintage oldies" look.
No, out of the tower window.
I presume this is the tenth car of a train (tail lights)
but how odd the END GATES aren't crossing in front the storm dooh.
This was in reply to the idea about Charlie the Tuna in a reefed subway car (Paul Matus suggested it first):
"August 12, 2003
Dear Ron,
We received your e-mail of 08/11/03 and want to thank you for taking the
time to contact us. We sincerely appreciate your interest in the ongoing
development of Del Monte Foods.
Our Company, however, does not solicit the submission of ideas, notes,
drawings, concepts, graphics, photographs, recipes, or any other
information from outside of Del Monte Foods. We routinely receive
suggestions and ideas that have been or are currently being considered by
Del Monte.
Thank you for your interest in Starkist.
Del Monte Foods Consumer Affairs
consumeraffairs@delmonte.com
Short interpretation: "Sorry, Charlie."
Kinda like trying to market the Nova in Mexico.
- Least amount of time any given car of the train spends in the curve.
- Highest speed of the train through the curve.
Depending which you mean, the answer is likely to differ. 63rd St is high speed, but goes on for so long that total duration in the curve is considerable.
A good contender would be the J/M/Z from Kenmare to Centre St. It's a low enough radius that it doesn't take forever to pass through, but high enough radius to allow high speeds.
Coming out of 9th street, northbound, a couple of times I was in the last car and the train was going at nearly full speed by the time the last car took the hairpin turn. Had to be at least 25mph, maybe even 30. Not all operators do that, it depends who's at the handle.
If you're not holding onto something, you'll be flat on your ass before you know what hit you.
Curbes usually have timers, do they not? Isn't the last curve on the A line toward 207 St governed by a signal set to 20 mph?
Not on PATH, they don't. And even the ones that are there, don't always work. Well, the following incident did not involve a timer, but the principle was the same.
About 3-4 months ago I was on the PATH to Hoboken, during the PM rush hour. We were in that long, counterclockwise turn on approach to Hoboken. The guy in the cab was daydreaming, it seems. I watched as he neatly nailed a red signal, protecting another train two blocks ahead of us.
... Nothing happened. The brakes didn't dump. The train stopped, by my estimate, about 15 feet past the red signal, but no BIE.
He stayed still for about 20 seconds, obviously completely unsure what he was supposed to do next. Finally he began slowly, slowly inching forward. After about 30 feet, the red taillights of the train ahead of us were clearly visible, bouncing off the shiny rails. Even though I had a better view into the clockwise turn, the operator saw them too, and stopped dead cold. He waited several minutes, until the red reflections were gone. Waited another couple of minutes, for good measure, then began inching forward once more, until the next signal, came into view, and it was yellow.
After the dude came out of his cab, at Hoboken, he conspiculously looked around the first car, obviously checking if someone noticed what he did. I was already one my way out, and kept a low profile -- I had a train to catch, and more important things to do...
So, as you see, the timers and signals on PATH are much, much looser than they are in the subway.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Lexington/63rd st to 57th st/6th Ave/IND (both directions)
Myrtle-Willoughby to Bedford-Nostrand/IND
Hunters Point Ave to 45th Road/CH SQ/IRT
I could also say from Prospect Park to Church Ave and from Church Ave to BeverLY Road on the Brighton express line but the curves are not 90 degrees, they are partial curves.
We went through the 90 degree turn with the speedometer reading 22mph. I don't know if all R62s are that slow, or if this one was crippled, but on the rest of the trip to Flushing -- on the express track -- the train rarely went any faster at full power. The only time it broke 30mph was on several downhill spots.
Anyway, Washington's Metro system probably wins. I'd say it rounds hard curves around 45-50 MPH. Some interesting locations are between Union Station and Judiciary Square going westbound.
Such a case exists where the Queens local makes the sharp turn between Steinway Street and Broadway. In fact, on street level you can see how the library at Broadway and 41st is built at an odd angle that echoes the path of the tunnel's curve. Interesting, considering the library was probably built in the fifties or sixties, at least two decades after the subway.
End of lecture. In my view, some of the fastest 90-degree turns are:
The Concourse line turning between 161st and the Concourse, at least when 1/9s, 32s and 42s ran on the peak-hour express. It appears to go under Kilmer Park.
The Queens line turning between Van Wyck and Hillside. (Contrary to popular misconception, the line does NOT run under Queens Boulevard as far as Hillside Avenue!) The few R32 E peak expresses that take this curve do it extremely well without slowing down at all. Even the ordinary local R46s have some kick on this curve- but NOTHING like before the mid-seventies, when 1/9s, 38s and Slants ran on the late, lamented all-day M-F express- or the 1980-81 visits by the R10s. With the windows open due to lack of A/C, the noise reinforced the speed.
The Smith/pre-Culver line turning between the easterly projection of 9th Street and the western edge of Prospect Park. (Another popular misconception has the line running under Prospect Park Southwest, when it actually runs slighly parallel to the east. Wonder how they managed to build it under the park for six blocks without creating an uproar?) The next curve south onto Prospect Avenue is also decent, as is the next one between Prospect and Fort Ham Parkway. Northbound trains routinely plow into that stop at full speed. If you stand at the extreme back of the Manhattan-bound Fort Ham platform, you can hear the whistling way in advance.
Both lines curving into Hoyt-Schermerhorn have some nice, fast curves- particularly the one coming from Bergen Street, which goes downhill before making the turn.
The turn from 8th Avenue north onto 53rd Street east.
Oh yes, the Steinway curve isn't bad either for on a local line.
Most 90-degree curves on IRT and BMT lines are excruitiatingly slow, both underground and elevated. The fastest IRT curve I can think of is the one from 138th onto Bruckner en route to Southern- and that's not a full 90 degrees. Before timers and 142As, the Pelham express took that one very fast- especially downtown.
On the BMT, the only really fast turn, IMO, is on the Canarsie between Wyckoff Avenue and next to the NYCRR ROW.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
The remaining half will at least have the body style pioneered by the R44/R46s, with the bulbous nose, with R62s and R68s comprising the balance of the fleet.
That is exactly what the MTA should be doing. I think there should be a particular style associated with a subway system, not a mish-mash as some prefer. And you want common parts and systems for ease of maintenance. But you also want innovation.
Buying essentially the same car for 25 years, changing to another car for the next 25 ears, and keeping the cars for 50 years gives you that. You have no more than three types of car in the system -- one coming in, one going out, and one comprising half the fleet.
Don't have AIM, eh? Download it free here at www.aim.com!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/accidents.html
David
David
The operator went on duty at 11:38 pm on 4 Jun 1995. The accident occurred at 6:12 am on 5 Jun 1995.
The main reason for this question is, cos i'm a T/O at german railways
and also work through the night. I'm living in a quiet neighbourhood
and have no problem when sleeping on day. If i have to work past 7am
it's going to be very hard for me. (driving like in trance/drunk)
http://www.tsd.org/phpBB/phpBB2/
Context: A complete late-night CTA Brown Line train, with a rather troublesome auxiliary bishop on board, has gone missing. The conversation is between Sean Cronin, Cardinal-Archbishop of Chicago, and Auxiliary Bishop Blackie Ryan, Greeley's detective (who, I suspect, is someone who Fr. Greeley would rather like to be):
"'His limousine driver was to pick him up at the Kimball Avenue terminal of the Ravenswood Line and drive him back to his parish in Forest Hills.'
"'The Ravenswood Line is now known as the Brown Line.'
"'The Ravenswood Line is the Ravenswood Line, Blackwood,' he insisted with the sense of shared infallibility that only a cardinal can muster, and that rarely these days."
Highly recommended, though the specific hijacking scenario has several technical holes in it, as Fr. Greeley acknowledges in his introduction.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
I agree, the Ravenswood is the Ravenswood train. However, as you know, as America dumbs down even more, we have to make it easy on the younger generation.
It is much easier to remember a color code name than the given name of a transit line.
I feel sorry for them.
Remember, the CTA when they were eliminating A-B skip-stop service, actually used one excuse that customers didn't understand the system. What idiot can't understand their alphabet, and only the first two letters to boot!
Jim K.
Chicago
If necessary, trains can terminate at Chambers coming from either direction. From May 1, 1995 until July 20, 2001, Chambers was the southern terminal for midday M trains. It will resume this duty in 2004. Chambers is also the terminal for weekend J trains and has been since December 19, 1993.
If, on the other hand, the Second Avenue Subway was run on the easternmost tracks and connected through to the Montigue, rather than run down Water Street, then Jamaica line trains could terminate on the westernmost tracks.
"I grew up in Queens Village and when I found your site I was convinced that I would find information about the rumored subway tunnel that extends from 179th street and Hillside avenue (last stop in Queens for the F train) to the queens/nassau border running underneath Hillside Avenue.
There is a section of Hillside Avenue from Braddock avenue to Martin Van Buren High School which is considerably wider, this is where the rumored last stop of the F train was originally slated to be. Have you ever heard of such?"
Why DOES Hillside get wider there anyway? Was there supposed to be a Mosesian freeway there eventually?
www.forgotten-ny.com
If you have authoritative documentation that indicates an error in the site's content, please let Dave know about it so he can make any needed corrections. Do not diss others for quoting what is generally a highly reliable source.
A possibly contrary point, though: Hillside Avenue also may have been built narrower before Springfield probably because of the terrain (it's a little less hilly once you get past Springfield), plus the area to the west had been somewhat developed by that point. There are some newer buildings there, particularly around Francis Lewis Boulevard, but there also seems to be a lot of pre-war housing there as well. Once you get past Springfield, you're in an area that was developed in the fifties (at least), so the city had more room to work with, and took it.
wayne
Maybe you are, is 487362 the number on your patient's wristband?
In addition to zoning and subdivision regulations, local governments have something known as the "official map" which shows where streets are, even if they are not there yet, and how wide they ought to be. Before a property owner may build in or otherwise encumber a mapped street, the local government has an opportunity to buy it and preserve it for later use. Often local governments require developers to contribute the land under such streets and build the street as part of their subdivision approval.
What probably happened on Hillside is that the wider width is the official width of the street, so when a new section was added that is what it was built to. Meanwhile, older lots and buildings partially occupy the mapped street, and force Hillside to be narrower in some places.
You want to see this broad scale? Go to Staten Island, where streets neck down and expand out, based on development deals and plat applications, all over the place.
In Queens, Jewel Avenue (sorry, Harry Van Arsdale Jr. Boulevard) does that too.
www.forgotten-ny.com
... Jewel Avenue (sorry, Harry Van Arsdale Jr. Boulevard)...
Just to make a fine point: the name "Harry Van Arsdale, Jr. Blvd." was overlaid on Jewel Ave., but in an unusual way, such that it does not refer to exactly the same thing as the name "Jewel Ave." does.
Between QB and the GCP, "Harry Van Arsdale, Jr. Blvd." is the one-way eastbound Jewel Ave. *AND* the one-way westbound 69th Rd.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Oops! You are correct -- it is "Harry Van Arsdale, Jr. Ave.", not "Blvd."
Ferdinand Cesarano
Oops! You are correct -- it is "Harry Van Arsdale, Jr. Ave.", not "Blvd."
Ferdinand Cesarano
--Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
If we take a step back from the partisan union bullshit reported in the paper, the report basically says that an inexperience C/R who was very consciencious performed an unsafe maneuver in pursuit of her task. Essentially, she focused on the doors (which are important, and for which she would be commended) but did not remember to keep track of other details. Recall that if you stick yourself out too far in a tunnel, a passing beam can take your head off.
So the accident was, in part due to her inexperience. That is not exactly the same as saying "it's her fault." Had she had years on the job, maybe that would be the appropriate spin to it. But not here.
Certain accidents are foreseeable and should be engineered out. Conductors know to pull their head in before exiting a station in the hole. It isn't so obvious out of doors. The fence was too close and too high.
It's easy to say that now, after the fact (and has the fence been modified?). A more experienced C/R might not have stuck himself out that far and for that long. But I agree that she was not 100% responsible - but I don't think the report says that.
(My personal opinion) I think it's reasonable that the TA bears responsibility for not alerting all crew members (especially first-year rookies) that outdoor stations can have hazards too. That station should have been mentioned.
It was modified the next day.
I had suggested a contraption like the drive up window a the Dairy Queen.
It has two windows, they open outward. (But of course they are made of strong materials.)
You open the windows, and the car doors open.
You hit the bottle caps and the doors close, first the rear, and then the front. When they are all closed and locked, the motorman gets the "First Indication", he can move at 7 mph.
The conductor is satisfied that nobody is being dragged, he pulls the windows closed, and the motorman gets the "Final Indication" and takes the train on up to whatever speed is indicated by the railroad.
If the conductor fails to close the window, the window will try to close by itself and shove the conductor back into the car. If the conductor holds the window against this, the train goes BIE.
This also protects the conductor from punches, spitting, soda flingers, and other assorted ruffians.
It has been suggested to me that this can be a danger to someone on the platform, and this is true, but not that true because 1) the train is not moving that fast yet, and 2) because a collision with the conductor's head would also be dertrimental to the goose on the platform. Better one injury than two. Besides the window could have an angled guard on it to bursh the inattentive passenger aside. Call it a Goosecatcher!
: ) Elias
Waddayoumean? The a/c ALWAYS works, you know that!
Better than lossing your head over some wayside s#!t.
Or you could make it so that one of the windows opens inward for fentlation if needed.
: ) Elias
Your statement is inacurate. Every other conductor who worked the A to far rockaway (from the time that fence was installed until it was cut down) passed that point without incident. The difference was this conductor did not follow procedures. She ignored her training. In short, she "Fouled" up. I'm told that the fence in question was no closer to the side of the car than many signals are. I also wonder about her record. Had she been previously cited for not doing her job properly? I don't think we know everything.
Well said. Also an experienced C/R would rely on their indication to monitor a door problem once the train is moving.
Unfortunately, things like this can only be learned from experience. No way can the TA cover every obstruction in school car, they'd still be bound to miss some. It takes near misses to learn them, even underground. I remember even after 9 months I would check for blue lights once the train entered the tunnel (easier to see) until an automatic got too close to my elbow.
You obviously didn't read the articles closely. When you've blown off enough testosterone, turn on your frontal cortex again, consider what the MTA report actually said (not what you just ranted) and then wipe the egg off your face.
No, I don't work for the TA, but that doesn't mean I can't help you get both feet out of your mouth. You have to want to, though. Can't do it for you.
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee... I thought he meant that 40 years covers the time he and members of his family have been with transit... I didn't follow this thread when it was current, but I like the way lionlex spoke... I think he knew what he was talking about...
like i said before you don't like what i say then is really simple - don't respond. thats all
Your friend the late conductor deserves better than the BS in your posts.
Thank You for confirming the fact that you are a heartless, miserable bastard.
Peace,
ANDEE
Not an odd pairing at all. Many R142A's run on the Jerome line. Also, you must remember that all of these cars run in 5-car sets. They don't have to match continually throughout the entire consist.
Why was this #4 train in service headed to New Lots? Has this set been transfered
Because the 3 doesn't run during late nights. The 4 replaces the 3 in Brooklyn.
wayne
Please post.
Please post.
OK, NJ Transit planned to retire all of the Comet I cars by the end of 2003, but many remain. I heard on Railroad.net that the cab cars will stick around until 2005-05, when the bi-levels ("Comet VI's") roll in. Some Comet I's will go to the Morristown & Erie Railway.
NJ Transit planned to retire all of the Comet I cars by the end of 2003, but many remain
Specifically, the Comet Is that had been converted for high-platform operation, since they can be used all over the system. What with the problems affecting the Comet Vs, many will have to undergo repairs before being fully deployed. Retirement of the Comet Is is not specifically linked to the delivery of the bilevels (not officially “Comet VI” incidentally).
Jimmy
PS LONG LIVE THE ARROW III!
Peace,
ANDEE
-Robert King
H1 cars still in existance. There are at least four in work service right now. There are probably another two still around which were one of the garbage trains and the one car from the Bloor-Danforth garbage train which didn't burn up in the fire probably still exists.
I might post a picture of an H1 interior tomorrow for the hell of it.
-Robert King
Perhaps you mean Port Imperial?
BTW, speaking of the Port Imperial service, the bad part is that the HBLRT is following the old River Line routing (using old Erie Weehawken Branch to the NYWS&B tunnels), resulting in a separation of well over 1,000 feet between the ferry slips and the LRT station. This would result in making Lincoln Harbor and Hoboken Terminal into more attractive ferry/rail interchanges than the PI location.
A few years ago I forced myself into breaking this habit, after a string of pushing incidents. I realized that this was a dumb, dumb thing to do, and that I better get my act together.
Now, I still may stand near the platform edge, waiting. But as soon as I see a train coming in, I automatically move to the middle of the platform.
At first I had to consciously make myself do this. Now, it's automatic and I don't really have to think about it.
Now, I still may stand near the platform edge, waiting. But as soon as I see a train coming in, I automatically move to the middle of the platform.
At first I had to consciously make myself do this. Now, it's automatic and I don't really have to think about it.
I assume you never applied for the upcoming T/O exam. Well why don't you put yourself in a T/O's shoes and see how you have to deal with countless jerks standing with part of their feet over the edge.
Better yet, try standing at the edge on these stations at the exteme end where the train enters:
Times Square/BMT North side of Brooklyn-Bound Platform
34th st/IRT, south side express platform
59th st/IRT lower level, both platforms
125th st/Lower Level, express side
161st st/River Ave, S/B side
170th st/IND, S/B side
Church Ave/BMT, both platforms
Grand Central/Lexington Ave, both platforms, express sides only.
Now think about this next time you are standing at the edge of any platform. All it takes is one a**hole to disrupt the entire line for the next 2 hours and inconvenience as many as 50,000 people trying to get to work. Congrats to you, you give new meaning to Subtalk Dead. Because we don't want a Subtalker that is dead from suck a reckless action as that. No matter if you stand so close with ignorace or stand safely away from the edge, the same train will enter the same station at the same time, no matter what.
Exactly what behavior of his are you saying is dangerous?
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/manhattan/nyc-subway0813,0,3328737.story?coll=nyc-topheadlines-left
Besides, have you actually seen some of these so-called "platforms". Try figuring out where you can place yourself at Kings Highway on the Q, without being two paces away from the platform's edge.
Or most of Beverly Rd or Cortelyou Rd.
Gosh, I'm so touched my your concern for my well-being *sniff*.
I am referring to those people who stand at or near the yellow danger marker or worse, lean over the edge to look for their train. I use Newkirk Ave and even when Kings Highway is CROWDED, there is no excuse for those people who peer over the edge.
I wonder if rail buffs, as a whole, take more or fewer chances because of their familiarity with trains.
For any of you, pick any regular subway route, go to a RF window you can see (most R44 and R46's excluded) and count how many stations where you see people peer over the edge or stand so close to that edge.
Ocean Parkway (J line)
Lawrence Street (D line)
8th Street (D line)
And I typed my posts so fast and not looking at these items too. Make NYCT look good with that < Q > service notice poster last week.
Yes.
Your proposal is completely impractical.
OTOH, many 1 trains are signed partially if not fully as 9's during the day and even on weekends, but they're still officially 1 trains, not 9 trains.
Hurry up with this game, since the 9 is being discontinued at the beginning of November.
Heh heh, I won't ruin the game by posting the list, again.
Where did you get that from? And will it just mean all 1 trains make all stops all times?
The 1 and J are long routes but suffer from not having a middle track continous end to end
Given the line's ridership characteristics, an express would be a waste -- it would cause some stations to be underserved and others to be overserved. The best way to meet passenger demand is to simply run a lot of local service, with some locals turning at 137th and/or Dyckman, if not too inconvenient.
I realize that's hard for some railfans to swallow.
NIMCP
Is it not a City Park?
Maybe it is a County Park?
: )
It's also home to a train station. Too bad it isn't home to tracks to go along with it.
That would be hard for people in Kingsbridge, Inwood and Washington Heights to swallow too. I'm at home, not at the office, but I believe your ridership assumptions, as on the Concourse Line vs. 8th Avenue on the UWS, are off.
The best solution is the one originally planned -- locals running to 137th and Lenox Terminal, expresses through to the Bronx on both lines. But the configuration of the interlocking makes this difficult.
The biggest cost on the ROW, aside from utility relocation if you are building it new, is the signals, and the signals on the Broadway line will come (over) due for replacement before 2025. I think the right thing to do is rebuild the interlocking to permit the preferred service pattern. This would require:
1. Adding outboard tracks outside tracks 1 and 4 for 1/9 trains going local. The additional tracks would have to be some distance north of 96th Street.
2. Just south of that, connectng tracks 2/3 (express) into the existing tracks 1/4 (local), then using the exisitng switches between the local and express directly north of the station to divide the trains into local and express.
3. Just south of that, connecting the existing track M into the existing (express) tracks 2/3 for 1/9 trains going express.
No, they're not. Fare registration counts at 50th, 66th, 79th, and 86th combined are greater than fare registration counts on the entire line north of 137th. Might it not make sense to have more trains stop at 50th, 66th, 79th, and 86th than north of 137th?
Based on 2000 figures, the busiest (1/9-only) station north of 137th is 157th (funny how it's not an all-stop station, no?), with 2,649,053 fare registrations. At the other extreme is 215th, with only 428,117 fare registrations. 86th, 79th, 66th, and 50th have 5,867,037, 5,319,045, 6,674,250, and 8,052,456 fare registrations, respectively.
Until 1989, alternate 1 trains short-turned at 137th. The practice was stopped because of logistical difficulties in turning trains at 137th, not because of heavy demand further up the line.
Some F trains short-turn at Kings Highway. Some 6 trains terminate at Parkchester (even though, in that case, it's the local stops south of Parkchester that have low ridership). Some 7 trains terminate at 111th and Willets Point (even though Main Street is the busiest station outside Manhattan). Logistics aside, why on earth should every train that serves the ultra-busy stops between 42nd and 96th run all the way to the relatively quiet 242nd?
In general, those a long distance out are forced to endure longer waits but are provided with a faster ride -- on an express. What you propose is a longer wait, but with a slower ride. What I suggest is a longer wait for those further out, with half the trains turned at 137th, but with an express ride from there.
Logically, if the number of people on the train is the guide to the level of service, no terminal should have any trains at all, just a connecting bus.
I have no objection to your proposal, except that it would be extremely expensive. If it were implemented, Rogers junction would probably have to be unkinked (probably by simply moving 5 trains off of the Nostrand branch, where they directly cut into total West Side service).
However, ridership surveys should be done first. I'm not willing to assume that the vast majority of riders boarding north of 137th are bound for express stations. By 59th if not 66th, SB trains lose more passengers than they gain in the morning rush -- i.e., the stations south of that point are generally rush hour destinations rather than origins.
I would object to using the middle track between 96th and 145th. While not as busy as their southern neighbors, 103rd, 110th, and 116th are much busier than their northern neighbors. Running some trains express would overburden the remaining locals.
I'm in the same situation that you are -- near an inner station on a line in which most of the ridership is in inner stations (Culver), where a powerful local pol once changed the routing to force every train to stop at his station. As a result, it's a long ride from out there.
Do I think it would be fair to split the F local and express, thus diminishing my tph, to provide express service? Yes, as long as my TPH was kept high enough,which it would be if the G were extended to Church.
What have I said that you're objecting to so strenuously? I didn't even disagree with your proposal; I only said that it would be very costly and that ridership surveys should be taken first to make sure that the proposal is even what the passengers want. This isn't comparable to, e.g., the F in Queens, which starts as a local and then runs express the rest of the way to the CBD, where it returns to local service -- your proposal has trains running express through the CBD itself -- so it's not clear to me that it would be a popular change.
(1) 242 St - South Ferry, all stops, all times.
(9) 242 St - South Ferry, express 200-137 (skip 191, 181, and 145), weekends.
<9> 242 St - South Ferry, express 242-137*, weekdays 6 AM to 9 PM
* Details of <9> express service
6 AM to 9 AM:
Downtown trains skip 238, 231, 225, 215, 207, 191, 181, 157**, and 145.
Uptown trains skip 145, 181, and 191.
9 AM to 11:45 AM:
Downtown trains skip 238, 231, 225, 207, 191, 181, and 145.
Uptown trains skip 145, 181, and 191.
11:45 AM to 12:00 N:
Downtown trains skip 238, 231, 225, 191, 181, and 145.
Uptown trains skip 145, 181, and 191.
12:00 N to 12:15 PM:
Trains skip 145, 181, and 191 in both directions.
12:15 PM to (3?)4:15 PM:
Downtown trains skip 191, 181, and 145.
Uptown trains skip 145, 181, 191, 215(?), 225, 231, and 238.
4:15 PM to 9 PM:
Downtown trains skip 191, 181, and 145.
Uptown trains skip 145, 157**, 181, 191, 215, 225, 231, and 238.
** - I currently have trains bypassing 157 in peak hour in peak direction, and stopping there otherwise. However, I have heard that 157 has the highest ridership north of 137. Therefore I wonder if it would make more sense to reverse this, having trains stop there ONLY in peak hour in peak direction, skipping otherwise.
Any comments? [As for the issue of not knowing what trains skip what stops at what times, maybe it will encourage people to actually LOOK at the timetables!]
Monday night in the SubChat room I came up with a much better one.
Unfortunately its 4AM and I really don't feel like explaining it right now.
I will get back to you tomorrow. [The jist of it is I've figured out how to turn trains at 137 St.]
Also, it would forever make it impossible to implement a service pattern that has locals terminating at 137th and expresses running through. I don't know if that should be a big deal -- right now, such a pattern wouldn't be appropriate, but in the future, it's possible that it would make more sense.
Here's my version (colors for illustrative purposes only):
(When short-turning isn't in effect, trains can run on the tracks they use now.)
1 for Greenberger!
The 9 is not a line of its own; it's just a variant of the 1. It never runs express, nor does the 1. South of 137th, 1's and 9's are identical; north of 137th, 1's skip some stops and 9's skip others.
The problem is that this entire elaborate procedure only saves passengers a maximum of two minutes, while passengers at intermediate stations have to wait twice as long for a train. Based on turnstile registration counts, the average 1/9 passenger saves more time without skip-stop than with it.
Service on the line isn't being reduced (at least I hope it isn't being reduced!); the trains that are now labeled 9 will simply be relabeled 1, and all trains will make all stops.
The Z is a different story. Skip-stop on the J/Z saves five minutes, not two, and the J/Z has two very busy stations at the end of the line, unlike the 1/9. I see no reason to eliminate skip-stop there.
then the 1 and 9 could have bypassed all the stops from 96st the 137st and speed the whole trip to 242st like on the J/Z
If it was an issue of a few minutes, the MTA should have explored an option of running a parallel service along the 1 so the middle track could be utilized.
Or, diamond express #1 from 96st to 137st and possibly covering part of the Northern section of the line as well., tjhis would sway people off the A train which is extremely popular, and give local stops to exit below 96st
N Bwy
Southbound, the predominant transfer is from the 1/9 to the A/C. Northbound, the predominant transfer is from the A/C to the 1/9. There's little reason there to transfer to the northbound A, since it only goes a few more stops and they're all close to the 1/9, so most people who might benefit from such a transfer just stay where they are.
Is the "A" really that popular? For an express... I question that.. but maybe someone knows better than myself.
N Bwy
Eliminating the very services the MTA kept its word to maintain, If the fare was raised to $1.75, I'de agree with the MTA
Sheesh! :-X The V gets praise from me; I don't get why they showed so much hatred towards it :-\.
Please, not another fare hike, We're only paying $1.67 now.
I love the the 9 train, its so convenient
How can the Z be more successful, it runs in ONE DIRECTION,7 TIMES, OVER 1 HR & 15 MIN
VS the beloved 9 which once ran during midday as well as both directions
I guess thats the cost of having the A/C adjacent to the 1/9. Now many will take the A and pack into the 3 elevators at 168st
Personally, I think both the 1/9 and J/Z need to better utilize those middle tracks.
As Selkirk said recently, Do you like standing on the platform while the train blows by you tooting its horn? And that feeling of pleasure is so much nicer when its pouring rain or freezing cold out.
Yet, if you do use the line and do use a skip station, I would really like to know what you like about it.
-Skip Stop means less crowding on a given train (trusting that
people on board are ON THE RIGHT train and not just lost and taking
up seats).
-The train I take is not the one YOU take.
LOL
Skip-stop has no overall impact on train crowding.
It does have impacts on station crowding: with skip-stop, platforms get crowded because of the unnecessarily long waits and turnstiles get crowded when all 50 people get off the train at once. Spreading out the loads would reduce station crowding.
Well it's really difficult for you to say that. After all, not every station has exactly the same ridership. It is likely that one train or the other in one direction or the other either in the morning or the evening, is less crowded than the other one.
But the overall crowding on trains is identical (unless skip-stop scares some people away from the line). The same number of trains have to move the same number of people.
Yet stations have to put up with more people at a time waiting and more people at a time exiting.
N Bwy
LAAAAAAATE.
9 242 St-Van Cortlandt Park Bronx-New Lots Ave Brooklyn via Broadway Local-7 Ave Express-Brooklyn Local.
Jimmy
unfortunately the 4/5 seem to dominate to Utica
Also, the West Side IRT express tracks are currently operating at full capacity, thanks to the wasteful routing of most rush hour 5 trains in Brooklyn. To implement your proposal, service on the 2 and 3 would have to be reduced.
David
Slightly off topic, both cake and ice cream molds were produced in the shape of the Unisphere. The globe portion of the cake mold was slightly larger than a softball, whereas the globe portion of the ice cream mold was about the size of a baseball. I've seen them in antique shops a couple of times; don't remember the price on the ice cream mold, but the nicer example of the two cake molds that I've seen was priced over $200, around 1990. I imagine that a stiff, dry batter (such as a sponge cake) would be required, else the relatively small "neck" at the Unisphere's base wouldn't be able to support the weight of the globe.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Peace,
ANDEE
The man should also be grateful that he wasn't at Main Street, as many of his rescuers would have refused to go down on the roadbed.
I thought that was an R32 with a large green 4 on the bulkhead?
Same Difference.
Elias
Peace,
ANDEE
I hate to tell you, but neither cashews nor pistachios will be of any help here.
:0)
Since adding two tracks to the Lex line would have to be build (tunneled) under the current tracks (there is no space to do it any other way), the cost would be just as expensive, and probably more than a SAS would cost, and you wouldn't have the added bonus of adding a transit line to a different area.
Two tracks added to the Lex line is called the "Second Ave Subway"....the only way to do it.
Your Brighton Line partners (including myself)
Flatbush41
New Flyer #857
voiceofreason
Q Exp
Brighton Beach Gene
#1 BrightonExp Bob (he hasn't been on this board in awhile)
Q Brightliner
Dupont Circle Station
So, true. Lundy's has risen from the grave a couple of years ago, and there are still other wonderful places to eat. At least you won't get food poisoning from the no-name eateries along the outskirts of the Slime Bitch Line, your stomach is pretty much safe if the place you have dinner tonight is near the Beautiful Brighton Line.
If you go to the 18th Ave station (N Line) exiting at the 17th Ave end and walk two blocks to 65th St, you'll find the original Sbarro's. Not a restaurant, but an old fashioned Italian deli that gave birth to a successful chain of Italian eatries. I love their homemade meatball heros and their proscioutto balls are not to be missed. There are no chairs or tables, so it's take out. Arrive hungry !
Bill "Newkirk"
the Sea Beach-Brighton 'feud' is so interesting eh ;-D.
Isn't the new Brighton Express going to be the B?
Uh...Bill "Newkirk"
BTW, I don't recall you having ever implied that you are a Brighton fan, so that is a surprise. Especially when I consider that even #4 Sea Beach Fred admits that after the Slow Beach, the Brighton is his favorite.
Other lines are good, but Brighton is my line.
Better?
David
David
Thanks for the info, glad to see SOME vestiges still remain. :)
The 1 has four-track cut-and-cover, three-track cut-and-cover, two-track cut-and-cover, two-track deep tunnel, three-track deep tunnel (the only one in the system, AFAIK), three-track arched viaduct, two- and three-track standard el, a lift bridge, an underground yard, and a loop with gap fillers. It's also the only line to pass through the WTC site.
I've never really scoped the neighborhoods but I'm sure they're all good. At Brighton Beach, I notice the abundance of Russian characters and you can really feel like you're in downtown Russia. :-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Which is it? "Under the Sidewalks..." (Cudahy) or a book by Joe Cunningham?
Peace,
ANDEE
Chuck Greene
They have to be kidding...
Why are the sidewalk ventilation grates no longer permitted?
Anyway i was wondering if any of you guys knew of any good passenger railroad layouts. Almost all of the layouts i have found online are completely freight.
I highly recomend picking this sim up. At 5 dollars how can you lose.
Sean@Temple
My layout is coming along quite well. I have a 6 track stub terminal linking up with a 4 track through main line. Flyovers and flyunders abound.
Sean@Temple
Also check out the Trainz message boards and look for two guys named "jeffmorris" and "Magicland"...they seem to be obsessed with NY/NJ area layouts and rolling stock. There is some NYC subway stock (the R27/30 and R33WF are pretty good, and have [sort of] changeable signs) available for download on Trainz's Download Station, and I heard some guy is working on PATH cars too...there are also New York Central passenger cars, trolley cars, etc. I was working on a Second Avenue Layout but my hard drive crashed and I have to go back to the last backup version, which is a far cry from the point I had reached (was nearly finished).
Sean@temple
CO comes on and says "there is a great deal of congestion going over the bridge" --OK so far-- "there was an explosion on an M train, and that train needed to be re-routed, and it is causing delays".
Whoa, there! First off, assuming there actually *was* some sort of explosion on an M train, why would that affect bridge traffic significantly, unless all N/B traffic was being routed over the bridge? (Which it wasn't because there was an N across the platform at DeKalb leaving at the same time we were.
Did anyone hear anything about this?
Whatever it was, it turned what should've been a 40 minute trip into an 80 minute odyssey.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
I wish they'd make a new one.
cheats/tips & tools
http://home.t-online.de/home/aronspohr/ttdx.htm
I could also e-mail (Send reuqests off board please)) you my saved games to play with (Drexler Patch Required for my saved games)
I Have The Windows Version Of Transport Tycoon deluxe Running on Windows XP Pro.
(Downloadable from "The Underdogs" (10Meg)
http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?id=1631)
Best Mutipul Transport Sims ever made.
Also Most Addictive. when I Play, I cant stop.
This Game has not been available for sale in the US for 5 years.
(Free Download from "The Underdogs" (Complete Game 10Meg)
http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?id=1631
For Windows 95, 98, ME
Download Drexler Patch for Windows 2000 & XP and to use Cheats For All windows Versions.
http://www.ttdpatch.net/
For those who saw my previous picture of the construction, note that this one is from almost exactly the opposite angle, on the back side of the entrance.
Also, anyone with a camera phone may wish to check out www.mobi2pic.com, the site hosting these pictures, which is being developed by a friend of mine for direct sending of camera phone pictures from your phone.
Peace,
ANDEE
Those bastards.
It woulds be interesting from historical reasons to view them in the context of a vastly improved subway system that you lucky Americans can enjoy now.Sittng here outisde London one is reliant only on the printed word and excellent websites like this (flattery usually helps)
David
--Mark
Its a bit of a fascination as how the system pulled itself out of the slough of decay and graffitti - we did a smaller version on Network Southeast (which I worked for in the 1980s called "Operation Sparkle" on the Watford - Euston DC lines.The latter never succumbed to the worst excesses of the subway but did have an image probnlem with the start of tagging and perceived crime levels.The impact of a British clean car policy - heavy station cleans - and an excellent CCTV system on stations and trains helped contain matters.Ridership and passenger satisfaction indices (along with staff motivation) improved.Its just good textbook management practice along with a deep interest and care for the product.
On a trip to NYC in the 1980s I had a long chat with the cleaners at Coney Island Terminal and shared their outlook and experiences of metro operation.The wonderfull thing about railwaymen (and women) the whole world over is a common , shared purpose.
... which will be covered once I complete "The NYCTA in the 1980s", currently under development.
--Mark
--Mark
You can see all the photos at:
http://palter.org/~brotzman/07-19-03_PORT_JERVIS_TRIP/Part-2/
Here are some teasers:
NJT GP40-2 #4201 and the ill-fated former CNJ GP40P #4108 heading up our train at Port Jervis under the watchful eye of signal 927, an original Erie bracket mast sporting two original Erie offset GRS model SA searchlights with large targets.
The wonderfully preserved Erie RR station at Port Jervis. PJ was an important crew change, helper base and yard facility for the Erie when freight traffic was greater and coal was king. The new station is a PoS bus shelter mounted on a concrete pad.
Lastly here is the western portal of the several thousand foot Ottisville tunnel, about 7 miles north of of Port Jervis. It tunnels through the same ridge that hosts the High Point State Park in New Jersey and eventually runs down to the Water Gap. The date carved into the concrete above the portal reads 1908.
Now Brooklyn 1944 can tell me how awful my photos are :-)
Thanks Mike and the other PJ Trip Subtalkers.
Jimmy :)
Some interesting things to note include:
Reading Perminal
Penn Center Stub End
Through Service to Newark via Bound Brook
Through Service to Bethlehem
RR service to Newton, West Chester and Ivy Ridge
52ns St, Logan and Tabor Regional Rail stations since closed
Regional Rail is Green, Subway-Way is Purple
Rt 101 and 102 same color as 100
The commuter tunnel of the 1980s was good in that it better integratedthe commuter rail network, but losing the the outer reaches was bad.
The R6 could be rextended with relative ease. The R5 still reaches Downingtown, and Amtrak does take you further on that line.
When I lived in Philly the first time I could have used a Bethlehem line. Oh well.
Franklin Square: yes
Woodcrest: no
Sean@temple
Chuck Greene
There's not much call for transfer between Ridge Ave and MFSE; southbound riders heading for Market St would take the Broad St line for the free transfer at City Hall.
Fairmount (LL) on the Broad-Ridge Spur is a single island platform. Fairmount (UL) on the Broad Street Line is a for track local station with two side platforms. The free transfer is avaliable only between the northbound (UL) platform and the single island (LL) platform. There are no connecting passageways between the north and soutnbound platforms on the Broad Street Line at this station.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Sean@Temple
Steve Eldridge, WTOP Radio
Imagine July 4th celebrations on the Mall in September. On a weekday. During rush hour.
That's what's ahead on Sept. 4 as Washington D.C. plays host to the National Football League's "NFL Kickoff Live 2003," a USO-type extravaganza that will feature Britney Spears, Aerosmith, Mary J. Blige and others entertaining 25,000 military troops on the National Mall.
On a Thursday evening.
The potential trouble facing downtown commuters is enormous, though Peter LaPorte, Director of Emergency Management for D.C. tells WTOP "we're expecting to put on a large event and manage traffic at the same time."
Part of that traffic management, which LaPorte calls "challenging," includes closing various downtown streets on Thursday afternoon. LaPorte promises that main commuter streets like 14th Street and 3rd Street Northwest will remain open. Fourth Street will be closed and closing 7th Street is a possibility.
Inbound access could be limited on 12th and 9th streets.
Metro will also be operating on extended hours on Thursday night. Rail lines will remain open until 2 a.m.
In addition, Metro will operate on rush hour service from 2-10 p.m., though peak fares will only be in effect during the normal 3-7 p.m. hours.
Besides the pre-game concert, large-screen TV's are being set up on the Mall to allow concert-goers to stay and watch the season-opener between the Redskins and the New York Jets at Fed Ex Field. With the game starting at 9 p.m., fans who stay through the end won't be leaving the Mall until after midnight.
The Mall entrance to the Smithsonian Metro stop will close at noon on Thursday for security reasons, but the Independence Avenue entrance will remain open.
"We do anticipate a greater number of people on the rail system at the height of the evening rush hour," says Steven Taubenkibel of Metro. "So our customers really need to plan accordingly that day."
Transportation officials say the final plans are still in discussion.
LaPorte says he will have discussions with the city government and the Office of Personnel Management about the possibility of allowing government employees to time-shift their schedules.
Washington officials have another vested interest in seeing that things go smoothly with the National Football League.
"Someday we'd like to host the Super Bowl here in the greater Washington, D.C. area," says LaPorte. "It would make sense that we work cooperatively with the NFL and they work cooperatively with us."
The event will be televised live at 8 p.m. ET on ABC and will be followed by Game 1 of the 2003 season between the Redskins and Jets.
In addition to the football and music festival, the NFL's interactive Super Bowl theme park will be open to the public holding free tickets on The Mall between 8th and 9th Streets Monday, Sept. 1-Wednesday, Sept. 3.
(Copyright 2003 by WTOP Radio. All Rights Reserved.)
I know in Chicago, even running rush-hour level trains, it's a mess downtown on July 3rd when the Independence Day fireworks coincide with our annual Taste of Chicago food festival in Grant Park downtown (Chicago's front lawn). There are usually about one million people in the park that day. After the fireworks, the CTA trains are packed to the gills for an hour or more, and the traffic jam essentially shuts down surface traffic most of the night.
By “zombie blondy”, the author of the thread means a “ white man in his 30s, 5-foot-7 to 5-foot-10 and about 200 pounds. He has dirty blond hair and was wearing blue jeans and a blue jersey with the number five on it”, according to police (quoted from article). The prime suspect, but it is still not clear that the victim was pushed by this suspect.
I considered this is no accident. Its a revenge. Here is a possible scenario that causes this madness rage, Mr. Crismon must
A. Have know this man and say something to ticked him off.
B. Mr Crismon must accidently bumped the blondy or accidently steped on his foot.
C. Or perhap Mr. Crismon confessed to Blondy that he had an affair with is his wife, fiancee or girl friend.
Don't have AIM, eh? Download it free here @ www.aim.com
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
wayne
Peace,
ANDEE
I have a picture of an R68 with the end rollsign stuck between K and L.
couldn't the MTA run 6 car trains on the M portion of the route between Bay Parkway and Chambers St
CBTC stands for Communications-Based Train Control. It is the elimination of conventional signals and block-system, in a move towards computerized trains knowing exactly where they and other trains are.
ATC is Automatic Train Control. It expands on CBTC by letting the trains run without a human operator.
CBTC is a subset of ATC. CBTC is a new signalling system, ATC is a new control system based on it.
CBTC is more fault-resistant, since there's still a human involved in case the computer fails. ATC cuts all human costs completely. Worker Unions hate them both, but hate ATC more. Rider Unions generally like CBTC [greater TPH possible, and more efficient service/customer information], but fear the 'headless' ATC systems.
Did I mess anything up?
ATS = Auto Train Stop ... stops the train if the operator dosen't
ATC = Auto Train Control ... Slows the train if the operator dosen't
ATO = Automatic Train Operation ... Accelerates and Decelerates the train without operator intervention
CBTC as implimented can preform the duties of ATS, ATC or ATO, but is referred to as CBTC.
CTBC allows for the maximum possible tph, however it is very expensive and a very complicated system that is more prone to failure. ATC is a proven technology dating from the 1920's, cheap, relyable and easy to maintain, the only downside is that it lacks the tph of CBTC systems, but is more cost effective on a pre-train basis. The Subway-way system currently uses a rule 251 ABS system using fixed wayside signals. As the Subway-Way Trolleys have short stopping distances and as the current system has no ATS, many drivers treat the signals as "suggestions" running more or less on vision.
The reason SEPTA might be looking at CBTC is that the Subway-Way tunnel has an extremely high volume at rush hours and they might need an absolute tph higher than what CSS can provide for desired service expansions.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Oh yes, I got an origional Budd M-1 manual. They did manuals quite nicely too :) It's a fun read, in part because of all the features that were never implemented. Most notably ATO, which was the normal operating mode intended for the M-1s.
Oh yes, and they were designed for 100mph operation, even with deflated airbags.
The section on Identra was a hoot, too. I wonder how much of the origional guts for the various systems are still on those cars?
The cab drawing made it look roomy :)
Oh yes - what pre M-1 LIRR cars had GE propulsion? I've got a manual on that too, and it talks about various changes that could be made such as "high" acceleration (1.5mph/s, same as the M-1s in P2), and a 'high' balancing speed - 77 mph :) Normal was 60ish. I wonder what the low acceleration rate was?
Oh yes - the PC cam controller is a cute little beast, and weird. Hydrualic piston and an air piston. I still can't figure out the sequencing though.
No dynamics, but 2 steps of shunting (which came on in parallel).
What versions of the PC did the NYC subway cars use - I'm wondering if GE used the same one for the LIRR....
Track circuts will always be necessary to check for broken rails and misc. occupancy conditions. These might include debris on rails, car left behind, work crew on line, switch misaligned, etc.
The IRT, BMT and IND all used GE PC control. PC-8 was used
on the Flivvers and Steinways, PC-10 on the Lo-Vs. PC-15
was used on D types and GE equipped R1-9 cars. There is
very little difference among these types of PC control
The controller was a PC-19 AS2.
The control stand looks like a modern subway type, though the reverser used the existing LIRR MP-54 handle to work it, and reset / brake control switch was the same too. Interestingly, trhe door indicating lights and the headlight switch, etc were in the control stand.
AFAIK, all MP-54s were Westinghouse equipped. I'm wondering if the MP-72 or 75 cars were GE? I thought the MP-72s were westinghouse, though. Or maybe the LIRR installed GE equipment on some rebuilt cars?
IMHO, it's about as close to a vote of 'no confidence' in the HHP-8 / Acela design as Amtrak will publicly admit. I bet no more are built, nor any Acelas.
The state of Maryland must feel really stupid for buying the HHP-8s for MARC...
Michael
Washington, DC
OTOH, the ALP46s have proven to be solid locomotives for NJT after relatively few teething issues (least compared to Acela) at the start. Amtrak would do well to buy a moderate order of ALP46s, to fill in the gaps in service that could result from the HHP-8s or E-60s going AWOL again. And really only 2 (IIRC) AEM7s have been lost, so placing the AEM7s at fault for the need to borrow locomotives is pretty weak to say the least. The locomotive shortage was created not by the loss of locomotives, but by the extension of the NEC electrification, up to Boston. The line was expanded, and yet only 35 locomotives were purchased, of which only 25 more trains could be created, since Acela requires doubleheading. Since the Acelas aren't exactly the most available trainsets, perhaps only 20 locomotives at most are available at any given time. Then, since the E60s were removed from service, we now have a deficit of electric locomotives, thus requiring Amtrak to go begging. Amtrak clearly has no confidence in the Acela/HHP-8/Sybic locomotive, otherwise perhaps they would have gone to MARC or perhaps shake loose some HHP-8s from the maitenance bays at Ivy City or Philly. Ironic that when the E60s disappear, Amtrak has to go looking for power, even though their 'replacements' are at hand.
Phil could very well be right in his assumption that Amtrak is shopping around for a replacement for the E60CH (apparantly the HHP8 didn't do it), or even perhaps the early unmodified AEM7s.
So more '46s then?
The afternoon Clockers, trains 627, 629 and 633, are scheduled to leave Newark at 5:30, 5:51 and 6:24.
They're in the printed northeast timetable, listed as "Clockers" with the train numbers listed in my earlier post.
What made this car class special because it seems like its forgotten between popular cars like the R-12's and R-17s. (by popular I mean well known, because I know that the R-17s were very much disliked)
Can some people post some memories of the R-15s?
Chris
RIDER CAR RD335 - Class of '50 ACF. Still rollin' along.
wayne
Those handholds were added on in the 60's and nicknamed "knuckle busters" for obvious reasons.
Bill "Newkirk"
What preceeded them? Just the plain bars?
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, they had bars much like R-62's and 142's. Those mini handholds or knucklebusters were added in the 60's. Check out museum R-12 (5760) and R-15 (6239). You can see the holes in the bars where the knucklebusters once were and removed when the cars were restored back in '76.
Bill "Newkirk"
--Mark
Until I was eight, I did not like the round window in front. That window was the last one that I grew up to. After that, it was fine. I have many great memories of vintage IRT cars speeding through the tunnel.
What I miss, is the sound of the doors on the R27 opening and closing. No subway has a sound like that.
And I also miss those screaching brakes from the IRT vintage cars such as R15.
Once you rolled down one of those side panel windows....
whoa.... look out flying newspapers and Yawnkee hats to the floor!
Bill "Newkirk"
A major blessing !
Bill "Newkirk"
In the modern era, major league teams don't want mass transit city clientele. They want SUV-driving suburbanites, because they earn more and will more readily buy the $6 beers and $10 hot dogs and the $50 team caps. Steinbrenner has lusted for the meadowlands for years.
If this thing has a ghost of a chance the MTA has GOT to finish the two-decade rebuilding plan at the Atlantic Ave-Pacific Street-LIRR complex. Once and for all.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Also, building a sports arena on that site would have some irony, since that site is the place that Walter O'Malley wanted to build the Dodgers' new park when he was seeking to move the team from Ebbets Field.
Contrary to popular mythology, O'Malley's intent was not to leave town, but to move the Dodgers to a new park in Brooklyn. Furthermore, he was not looking for a City-built stadium; he wanted to buy the land and construct the park himself (as he ultimately did in Chavez Ravine). The Atlantic Ave. site was ideal because it would have been accessible not only to the local Brooklyn fans, but also to the former Brooklynites who had moved to Long Island and who had stopped coming to Ebbets Field.
However, O'Malley was constantly rebuffed by Robert Moses, whose help was needed for the acquiring of the privately-owned parcels of land. But, Moses -- the man who could lay highways virtually at will -- would not lift a finger to facilitate these purchases. And, by the time anyone else in New York City government became aware of O'Malley's desires to build the park at Atlantic Ave., O'Malley had already had enough of banging his head against the wall, and had begun talks with LA city officials.
NYC officials eventually made a futile last-ditch effort, offering O'Malley a City-built park for the Dodgers in Flushing Meadow (later the site of Shea Stadium). But, by that time, tentative agreements had been reached with LA officials.
So, all of the hatred directed towards the "fiend" Walter O'Malley for moving the beloved Dodgers should instead be directed towards Robert Moses. O'Malley's desire was to keep the team in Brooklyn. The idea of leaving came about only because of the bungling of the unaccountable Moses.
Maybe, if an arena is ever built there, the actual history of the Dodgers' situation will become more well-known.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Please do not forget, the City of New York did not own the land above the LIRR terminal in 1957; that was owned by the Pennsylvania Rail Road. O'Malley wanted the City to buy land it did not own (there is some conjecture this might have been illegal anyway) and give it to him. Back in 1957, this was not the way the game was played.
The Brooklyn franchise was the biggest money maker in the NL in the 1950's despite the fact every home game and 2/3 of the road games were on free television. The residuals they made from sales of pre and post game shows (Happy Felton's Knothole Gang and Talk to the Stars) as well as their far flung radio network would have been enough for any normal human being to be content. But not the O'Malley thing (certainly not a human being was he)...unfortunately the city of Los Angeles owned land which it had no aversion to kicking inhabitants off of.
The three biggest pieces of trash of the 20th century remain Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin and Walter O'Malley. None of this revisionist history will ever change that.
O'Malley wanted the City to use the process of condemnation to buy the land, which was entirely legal.
...and give it to him.
No, O'Malley was not seeking a subsidy of any kind from the City. In fact, his plan would have added to City coffers -- O'Malley was willing to buy the land from the City at a profit to the City, and then build the stadium with his own private funds. Nevertheless, Moses's obliviousness to the importance of the Dodgers led him to give O'Malley the back of his hand.
Back in 1957, this was not the way the game was played.
Well, the scheme that O'Malley had in mind for Brooklyn was almost exactly what happened in L.A. The City of L.A. used condemnation procedures to acquire the Chavez Ravine property, and then turned it over to the Dodgers for a profit. In the L.A. case, the City traded the land to the Dodgers in return for a more valuable piece of property -- Wrigley Field, the AAA park which the team had earlier acquired from the Chicago Cubs. O'Malley then went on to build Dodger Stadium without public subsidy.
The three biggest pieces of trash of the 20th century remain Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin and Walter O'Malley. None of this revisionist history will ever change that.
Sadly, many are content to believe popular mythology. But, for anyone who cares to look for the truth, the facts are there.
Ferdinand Cesarano
(O'Malley wanted the City to use the process of condemnation to buy the land, which was entirely legal.)
(...and give it to him.)
(No, O'Malley was not seeking a subsidy of any kind from the City. In fact, his plan would have added to City coffers -- O'Malley was willing to buy the land from the City at a profit to the City, and then build the stadium with his own private funds.)
Moving back On Topic, the City wants the MTA to just give the air rights over the West Side Yards to it as part of an Olympic Stadium. With a Flushing Line extension in place, and perhaps a MetroNorth to Penn program as well, the value of those yards would be enormous, and could be used to pay for the Second Avenue Subway.
Just another way the full cost of the Olympics is hidden. Hopefully they'll give it to the French to snub W. We'd be better off with tax paying development over those yards, and an Olympic Stadium in Jersey, paid for by the Jets and Giants.
And, Ratner's plan has the MTA giving the space over Brooklyn's LIRR yard (don't know it's official name) to him for use for his arena. The MTA, according to a press report I saw, has balked.
In this case I agree with Ratner. The sale of Brooklyn's yard would be far less lucrative to the MTA. Private development would be far less lucrative to the city -- new development outside Manhattan is exempt from property taxes for years and years. And an arena would increase MTA revenues by increasing discretionary subway and LIRR trips in the off peak hours, when capacity is plentiful.
There is nowhere to park, and now way to get highways to the area. By defintion, transit would be the mode at that site. If they assume any weekday driving to the game at all, they'll be bogged down in environmental lawsuits, as this intersection is non-attainment.
(The question would also be would Brooklynites accept New Jersey teams. If they're still good by the time the move is made I think they would.)
The Devils aren't coming. If there is to be a hockey team, it would be the Islanders. I'd expect the teams to be called "Long Island" rather than just "Brooklyn." After all, Brooklyn IS on Long Island, and could be desribed as the place where Long Island started.
(In the modern era, major league teams don't want mass transit city clientele. They want SUV-driving suburbanites, because they earn more.)
Not in the New York area. The wealthy people are those who either live in Manhattan, or work in Manhattan and live elsewhere. That's also where the childless are -- parents have neither the time nor the money to spend on professional sports. Almost anyone from Nassau and Suffolk who works in Manhattan could take the subway to the game and the LIRR home.
The problem is the arena would require deep subsidies with just the Nets, but hockey fans are more likely to be the white suburbanites you describe, and may not be willing to come to Brooklyn. But if it is one block from the terminal over the yard, maybe they'd come.\
(If this thing has a ghost of a chance the MTA has GOT to finish the two-decade rebuilding plan at the Atlantic Ave-Pacific Street-LIRR complex. Once and for all. )
A ghost is what it has. In addition to the environmental lawsuits, you can't build the area just over the yard -- it isn't wide enough. The yard is 200 feet wide, and an arena needs at least 300. You'd have to seize the block south of the yard by eminent domain, and on that block several loft buildings have been converted to housing.
The only team now that has Long Island in its name is the Ducks, Buddy Harrelson's independent minor league team (as did the old minor league hockey team of the same name that went out of business when the Islanders came into the NHL). The Brooklyn Nets? Why not? Definitely not the Long Island Nets.
It's hard to imagine any part of this city where a plan to build a NASCAR-type track (or a Grand-Prix type, for that matter) wouldn't bring in a storm of protest. No one has the political muscle required to get something like that through.
NASCAR tracks take up a great deal of space, I'd guess a square mile, or close to it. Any suitable locations would have to be quite far out into the suburbs. You'd need a spot with good highway access, to handle the huge race crowds, and commuter rail access too. Maybe some place in Orange County near the Thruway and the Port Jervis line, or well into New Jersey near I-80/I-78/I-287 and New Jersey Transit.
As far as political muscle is concerned, the enormous (and growing) popularity of NASCAR racing should be enough to get things accomplished.
More like two or three. Charlotte Motor Speedway, for just one example, is a 1.5 mile oval, with all of the support facilities outside of that oval (inside the oval is a much twistier 2.25 mile road course). The oval alone, with the immediate structures around it, occupy about one square mile. Then you add parking for all the visitors, the race crews and all their tractor-trailers, and the obligatory helipads for the drivers' last-minute arrivals, and you've got another square mile or two. All of this for a venue that runs, at a maximum, two NASCAR races a year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I disagree. Unlike a stadium, especially a football stadium, an arena has a variety of uses and can generate year round jobs. And unlike an office, more of those jobs would be accessible to the people of Brooklyn who do not have them. Of course, whether there is enough non-sports demand to fill both Madison Square Garden and a second arena in a less prime location is an open question. But there is excess demand today.
(As is amply demonstrated in Manhattan every day, transit works just fine with offices, while it may not work so well with sports facilities.)
I disagree again. What doesn't work with sports facilities is the automobile. When you pack that many people into one site at one time, it can take forever just to get into and out of the parking lots, as any trip to Giants, Shea, or Yankee Stadium demonstrates. Only a dense transit system can handle the load, and places off assembly generate trips at different times than offices and stores, so capacity isn't a problem.
I disagree again. What doesn't work with sports facilities is the automobile. When you pack that many people into one site at one time, it can take forever just to get into and out of the parking lots, as any trip to Giants, Shea, or Yankee Stadium demonstrates. Only a dense transit system can handle the load, and places off assembly generate trips at different times than offices and stores, so capacity isn't a problem.
I agree that in a physical sense transit can be very well-suited to major sports facilities. The problem is that many stadium/arena goers are in the habit of driving and may not be too amenable to using transit - notice all the garages and lots around Madison Square Garden that advertise event parking (at a price).
Manhattan has much more road capacity than Downtown Brooklyn.
In fact, Manhattan probably has amoung the highest auto capacity of any place in the world. It just doesn't seem like it because it also has among the highest capacity DEMAND for driving in the world, AND a vastly greater amount of transit capacity on top of it. But think about the number of highway lanes coming within a few blocks of MSG --West Street 6, FDR 6, Lincoln Tunnel, Queens Midtown tunnel, etc. All those 100 foot wide avenues in one-way pairs with channeled signalization.
Now consider the road capacity around Atlantic and Flatbush. Forget it! For one thing, all the roads from the south get compressed into Flatbush Avenue at Grand Army Plaza -- two lanes each way, one blocked by double parkers and one blocked by left turners. Atlantic Avenue chokes in the area under the LIRR. That leaves the BQE and Flatbush Avenue southbound -- nuff said.
And parking? There are garages in Downtown Brooklyn, but most are a subway ride away from the only location where an arena could be built. If you are willing to ride the subway, you'll just ride it.
The SUV or bust crowd will just watch on TV.
Who's saying the arena won't come with multiple levels of parking?
Not much room for parking. As noted already, the arena itself is bigger than the site and would require condemnation of some nearby properties. That will be tough enough to accomplish. Taking even more property for parking would be that much more difficult and expensive. Underground parking wouldn't be possible because of the LIRR and subway. Multilevel parking on top of the arena might be feasible in a technical sense, but surely would be very expensive. And then there's the limited road access to the site.
Profit from parking is something like $50,000 per year per space. However expensive it is to construct levels of parking above or below the arena space, it would be worth the expenditure. It is possible that a lot of fans would arrive by transit, though... are any modal split numbers available for MSG?
I don't have them but I know the exist. Look for them when the EIS for the Flushing Line Extension comes out.
My guess is that the split is much more pro-transit during a weekday than on a weekend. After all, all those folks are already in the CBD for other reasons, and driving in is a nightmare. On a Sunday, my guess is that more people drive, but it is less of a problem that they do, with more parking and road space available.
I'll say it again -- Manhattan has far more road capacity AND parking than Downtown Brooklyn. It just doesn't seem that way because drivers are a small share of the massive numbers of people in the CBD. Drivers are a higher share of Downtown Brooklyn, but that will change as the area grows, because as in Manhattan there is no room for more cars (if parking lots are built on and not replaced by garages there will be less room).
Why not centre it on Stillwell Avenue Station? When all the lines are open, it must be one of the most over-served stations in the City.
Not that I know of. They plan on calling it the Brooklyn Sportsplex and from the looks of it, it'll be a stone's throw from Keyspan Park. During the games it'll be used for Indoor Volleyball.
This link has details of the proposed venues of the 2012 Olympics.
If the Atlantic Terminal location deal falls through, Ratner could petition to set up shop here.
That area is at the center of one of the great poverty belts in the city. Doesn't make it bad, but does give it a bad reputation. Recall riding the LIRR to my wife's old town (Wantagh) to see her parents back before we had a car. At East New York, everyone would back away from the doors. No one got on, and no one got off. And during the blackout, a woman who works for me and lives in Valley Steam had to take buses through there. She said she heard gunshots.
Making Downtown Brooklyn at prime business location will be difficult. Given race/class attitudes, doing the same for Broadway Junction would be a miracle.
Miracles do happen.
I thought downtown Brooklyn was already a prime business location, with MetroTech Center there for at least the past six years.
I read you about Bway Junction-ENY-Atlantic Ave LIRR hub being in the center of one of NYC's great poverty belts, but even so it is still a very busy transit hub. Perhaps its transformation into a business/sports hub, as well, would be the best way to begin the transformation of this great poverty belt into a safer and more prosperous area : start in the center, and work one's way out toward the ends. Bushwick is adjacent, and is itself being gentrified now, so perhaps this would be a help to Bway Junction-ENY.
I read you re : race/class attitudes (city/suburb attitudes are an issue as well) but perhaps even negative attitudes could help : i.e. let's go "slumming" in Grandpa / Grandma's old neighborhood. Or, more positively, let's explore our Brooklyn roots (a la Hartman and Lewis on PBS).
I know about the crime problems in East New York, but I have a few questions : When were your LIRR rides to Wantagh where you got the bad vibes at East New York ? What were the dates (month, year) time of day/night, weekday or weekend ? And during what blackout did your employee hear gunshots there while en route to Valley Stream by bus ?
True, a friend of mine was once shot at from the Canarsie L Line Atlantic Avenue station platform while driving under it on Atlantic Avenue. On the other hand, I regularly commuted between my home in Ridgewood, Queens, and church in Baldwin, Nassau, spring 1986 to fall 1988, Sunday mornings and afternoons, without being accosted or assaulted, using the LIRR at East New York and the L line.
Maybe comparing your LIRR ENY experiences with mine is like comparing apples and oranges, but I nonetheless wanted to mention them.
Perhaps some useful things can be learned by comparing the Coney Island / Stillwell Avenue / NY Aquarium area, pre and post Keyspan Park + Brooklyn Cyclones.
Prior to 1992, when we bought a car. Mind you I have done survey work in ENY since and I understand the reality isn't so bad, but the image is. Someone from Garden City is not going to get off the train there and walk. Even Downtown Brooklyn will be a heavy lift for some, especially those who do not regularly commute to the city by transit.
(What were the dates (month, year) time of day/night, weekday or weekend?)
All times, though we generally returned to Brooklyn at night.
(And during what blackout did your employee hear gunshots there while en route to Valley Stream by bus ?)
Broadway Junction.
I do see transportation as a concern. Subway, rail, and auto access from much of Queens is excellent. Subway access from downtown Brooklyn and lower Manhattan is also good. Subway, rail, and auto access from the rest of the city and from the north and west suburbs is essentially nonexistent.
There is *potential* for passenger rail expansion north into eastern Queens and even the Bronx via the New York Connecting ROW & the Hell Gate Bridge. Likewise it could expand south, directly across southern Brooklyn, and maybe even Staten Island via the Bay Ridge ROW & a future Cross-Harbor tunnel.
Any sucessful sports/entertainment or residence/office space construction at Broadway Junction/East NY would help push the case for any of these.
Not a problem. You are segmenting the market by transportation, with a team in either Downtown Broooklyn or Broadway Junction serving geographic Long Island, including Brooklyn and Queens.
Were it not for the sports monopolies, we would surely have three teams in each major sport -- one for the area above, one for New Jersey and the west of Hudson suburbs, and one for northern Manhattan, the Bronx, the Hudson Valley, and Connecticut. Heck, there are 8 million people plus on Long Island, 5 million plus in Northern NJ, and 5 million in Manhattan, the Bronx, and the northern suburbs.
But screw them all. I'll take my soccer playing daughers to a Colgate-Columbia women's soccer game up at Baker Field a week from Friday, and that will pass for spectator sports for me. It's free, I can take the subway, and therefore I can invite their friends even though they wouldn't all fit in my car.
:-) Andrew
Which ones are My Computer and Network Neighborhood (sorry, My Network Places)?
Jimmy
The following day Stephanie Davis replied saying they will NOT hold their festival this year, owing to "our present budget constraints."
The city has yet to decide on their festival.
Why I love Sea Beach? I wrote about this before...there's a variety of equipment, a great mix of people, and it has an open cut line all to itself.
The mix of people are very decent, as opposed to the Brighton Line - yes, there are savages on the Brighton Line - don't let me get into that. The people on the current N train read the NY Times...I like that...nice quiet corporate crowd.
The N was there for me when love came around....it was also there for me when love was lost...there's always to/from Bklyn....
It doesn't come as often or regular as the others...but I rather have a comfortable and SAFE and SANE ride home at the end of the day...who needs screaming or loud people...air conditioning on the R40's are very good - better than the R68's or R46's on the fellow Broadway lines...
When I was a kid going to grandma's, the N took me there...when I was at Stuyvesant HS - the N took me there....when I was at NYU - the N was there...when I was getting my Masters at CUNY Hunter...the N took me close enough...
So what if the N doesn't go over the Bridge...the N was part of the whole 9/11 incident - I'm proud to have taken the N that day. The N is every real New Yorkers dream - it goes to almost every major part of the city...
Let's face, crime on the N is low - crime along the Sea Beach neighborhoods is also low, compared with that of Brighton.
Yes, you can look out the window of your Brighton train and appreciate the scenary - but I'm sure the people around you will ruin the dynamics of the ride...along Sea Beach, you see the part of Gowanus, 8th Ave businesses far off, the front of people's houses on 61st St, then the backs of people's house...during the holiday's, these people have lights and decorations...I don't recall seeing this along Brighton...some people now have colorful wind chimes at the back of houses...then there's always those hanging their laundry - now this is New York and Brooklyn at its best...
You should see the smile on my face when the beloved N pulls up into Bay Parkway station to take me to work...and you can bet, I watch the N pull away when I'm coming home...and you can bet, I'll watch until I can't see the tail lights anymore...
Actually, my current love interest takes the N too...can't get any more romantic than an entity called "Sea Beach"
Here's a pic...copy or paste or try clicking...
Click here for my Sea Beach pic
OR COPY & PASTE
http://members.aol.com/jsyee53/myhomepage/seabeach_snow.jpg
Best,
Jonathan
It irks me that the powers that be let the IND lines dominate the old BMT since the 1967 merger.
I'd like to note that the R1, R4 and R7A cars you rode on, were built for use on the "disgusting" IND. That was before the merger into NYCT in the late 40's. That didn't bother you.
You and I are from the same era, even though our family Brooklyn experiences were on different lines. It p*sses me off that the A train continues to be the "express of expresses", while the Sea Beach, Brighton and West End Expresses have periodically taken a secondary role, the worst being the N in the Montague Street Rathole and running local on Broadway.
Remember that the N is still a sentimental favorite of mine. After all, my very first subway ride was on an N of shiny new R-32s.
Bill "Newkirk"
You must ride the Sea Beach strictly between Lawrence Street and Court Street only, because the only newspapers I see being read on that line are The Daily News, Il Progresso, and whatever Asian papers are sold at 8th Avenue or Canal Street.
I love the Sea Beach because of the way it rambles down 4th Avenue as an express, picking up speed as it blasts down the track.
I love the Sea Beach because it used exclusively the greatest rail car ever make, the Triplex "D"----no other car like it then or now.
I loved the Sea Beach as a kid because it carried the #4 designation, the same number worn by my baseball hero, Duke Snider.
I love the Sea Beach because it now uses the letter "N", my favorite. It is the letter of Nicholas, my favorite name, Navy, my favorite branch or service, and Notre Dame, my favorite college football team.
I love the Sea Beach because I completely identify with it, and many Subtalkers now identify it with me as I use it as my handle.
I love the Sea Beach because I love the open cut that doesn't tear up neighborhoods.
Most importantly, I love the Sea Beach because I think it is the greatest subway line in the system.
I am the human Sea Beach. I am Sea Beach Fred.
I like to see someone who has a lot of intense spirit for his line. In a competition, I know, you can cheer Sea Beach on to victory.
Type D Triplex, I guess you were in between the three car sets of Triplexes.
Linda rolls her eyes whenever Fred goes off on a Sea Beach monologue.:)
I know of devotees of Brighton (I am one), Sea Beach (of course), West End and Flushing.
What about Jamaica?
Are there any other lines with devotees to the bitter end?
Which lines have the least enthusiasm? 4th Ave. local? Queens Blvd./E train?
I'll argue and defend the 4th Ave-Broadway-Queens Blvd line, but debate? Nah, no good at that.
> Which lines have the least enthusiasm?
Even though I live on it, I put my vote in for the A line.
Gotta admit; that is one of my favorites. I like the idea of a long straight all-subway line, the Avenue is wide enough to support more development, you can see expresses (hypothetically) whizzing by in both directions...plus, I always get a strange sense of satisfaction to be waiting on a subterranean train platform in my favorite boro. It's different than waiting at a local station in Manhattan. I don't know, it just seems pleasingly cheeky for this outer borough boulevard to be sporting a four track subway. I want to say, "Good Show, Brooklyn!"
I had many hours of subway fun riding those old BSS cars when they still ran.
You sure? When I posted my thread declaring my love for the Flushing line, only 2 people posted, CC Local and JcHydra. What gives?
So here is my exact plan(All other lines would be the same)
B- Coney Island (VIA West End) to 205 (Cut to Bedford Park when D runs in The Bronx), All times. Express from 36/4th BKLYN to 59/Columbus Circle, otherwise local.
D-Brighton Beach- 205th St Bronx, Express, M-F 0600-2330. (Possibly Cut back to 145 mid-days and Evenings)
The advantages to this plan are:
-The CPW Local gets more service at no extra cost to the MTA/ Riders
-The Brooklyn riders get a service plan that is somewhat familiar
-Either The Concourse line riders get extra service during mid-days and evenings, or terminating trains at 145th becomes simpler as trains turning at 145th do not share track with those continuing into The Bronx.
Thank you for taking the time to read this,
Lincoln McMahon
Any comments from you subtalkers before I send it?(Typo correction would also be helpful due to my horrible proofreading skills)
If the letter is to be sent, I suggest the sender identify himself as A USER of the 86th Street station - otherwise it looks as if he lives there, or at least works there :-)
David
- The B currently has multiple north terminals, and Concourse local stations have inconsistent service: sometimes they have to take the B, sometimes they have to take the D, sometimes they can take either. R30's proposal (which is remarkably similar to one I submitted a few months ago) is more consistent. Only at one station, 205th Street, do the passengers have to learn when to ride the B and when to ride the D. Correct me if I'm wrong (I don't have the numbers handy), but 205th Street has fewer passengers than all of the Concourse local stations combined.
- The Bronx doesn't lose familiar routings. The Bronx simply gets its familiar rush hour routings extended to the rest of the day and week. And while a restoration of former Brooklyn routings is hardly a major consideration, it's certainly a small plus.
You should write: "All of your other service changes would be the same"
=> N,R,Q,W,M
>(Possibly Cut back to 145 mid-days and Evenings)
I think the (D) should have only one terminal: 205St
The (B) should terminate at 145 St while midday and evening weekday
Not that it matters much. Do you pay extra for first-class service? If not, then you have no right to deem your desires more important than anyone else's. The D is not an exclusive Concourse line -- it's simply a line that follows a particular route between the Bronx and Manhattan (and soon Brooklyn), and whether it should run local or express depends on the needs of all of its potential riders, not just those in the Bronx.
That is, unless you'd like to start paying extra, in which case I'd be happy to see the D remain as is. As it stands, on average, Concourse passengers pay less per mile than CPW passengers.
I would suggest that the B runs on summer weekends(Beach Service from BPB or 145th Street to Brighton Beach), at least that would help CPW in the summer. Weekends, we could have C trains that go from 145th Street to World Trade Center(slightly reduced regular C service from Lefferts) for the sole purpose of service CPW(8th Avenue).
Bronx riders have been getting screwed by the MTA for years (train line replaced with an unreliable bus, G.O.s, not wanting to rebuild Intervale Avenue-163rd Street station, WPR/Dyre, etc) , their service in anything but first class. D service doesn't even run that often to begin with, after waiting forever for that train to show up(and having to walk several blocks just to find the full time entrance), they should have a nice express run, unless you want them to go over to the Lex and squeeze on there instead.
Shuttles are good, then the A could run CPW express at night as well
plus 205th has lots of buses(many of which should go into Westchester County)
Since I worked nights, it was a bit irritating, but the IRT was just as bad, and the walk from Norwood to either White Plains Road or Jerome was ... well ... insane. I think they had orders to shoot to maim though if I headed towards Westchester. :)
Peace,
ANDEE
Be sure to put your name and address at the top, date your letter, and then sign off at the bottom. Try to keep consistent paragraph spacing and margins. If you indent at the beginning of one paragraph, do it for all paragraphs. Consider leaving a blank line between paragraphs.
"Upper West Side" - should be capitalized. Also, local and express need not be capitalized.
Good job! Send to:
Douglas Sussman, Deputy Director
MTA Govt. and Community Relations
347 Madison Av
NY NY 10017
In Brooklyn the D runs along West End because it is FULL TIME
the B runs along Brighton Express because it is WEEKDAY ONLY, the letters simply got swapped
Manhattan and Bronx is another story, the D has been a full-time express maintaining the entire line up to 205st, the B just fills in service gaps on the weekdays in the Bronx and is a supplement to the CPW local on weekdays.
D is a full-time letter and must go to the last stop and cover the full route all the time, it cannot just keep swapping terminals. Its kinda like the 2/5 situation in the Bronx
I say swap the B and C AGAIN and then during off peak service will be more uniform and updated
David
Run the B/D along Brighton one express, one local
Run the B/D along Concourse, one express, one local
There, problem solved
Look at the level the MTA took the A/C trains up to.
Its seems so simple, I think the MTA would actually do it, since they are about simplifying services and eliminating options
let the Q be the train running along West End
David
David
So let's analyze the situation at hand. Let's discuss with the simpler case, late night service. Who benefits from late night express service on the D, and by how much? Who would benefit from late night local service on the D (or B, but let's call it the D for the sake of argument), and by how much?
(Assumptions: With the D express, let's say that the A and D meet at 59th; someone posted that that's what happens. With the D local, let's say that the A and D are separated by 10 minutes. Also, let's say that the express saves 3 minutes between 59th and 125th and 0 minutes between 125th and 145th, which accords with my experience and with the schedules.)
Who would lose time if the D ran local at night?
Anyone traveling between the Concourse line and 59th, or between 145th or 125th and the 6th Avenue line, or between the Concourse line and the 6th Avenue line, would lose 3 minutes.
Anyone traveling between the Concourse line and the 8th Avenue line currently has a direct (no-wait) transfer at 59th. They'd lose 3 minutes due to the local run plus 10 minutes for the wait, for a total of 13.
Similarly, anyone traveling between Washington Heights and 6th Avenue loses the no-wait transfer, for a loss of 10 minutes.
Who would gain time if the D ran local at night?
Local passengers between 145th and 59th gain 5 minutes, since their average wait time is cut from 10 minutes to 5 minutes.
Passengers traveling between CPW local stations and the Concourse line currently have to wait 17 minutes at 125th or 145th for the transfer. If the D ran local, they'd save 17 minutes.
Anyone traveling between 145th or 125th and 59th exactly currently has effectively up to a 20-minute wait for an express (SB, a local arrives 3 minutes earlier, but it arrives at 59th at the same time as the express, so its presence is irrelevant), for an average wait of 10 minutes. If the D went local, the average wait would be reduced by 5 minutes, but the ride time would be increased by 3 minutes. These passengers would thus gain 2 minutes if the D ran local.
Who would be unaffected?
Passengers traveling within Concourse or 6th Avenue territory, including those who transfer to the 4 at 161st and to the 1/2 at 59th.
Passengers traveling between CPW local stations and the 6th Avenue line currently have to wait up to 20 minutes for the A and then transfer at 59th to a D. By our assumptions, the D is waiting there, so sending the D local wouldn't help. However, if the A is running just a hair late and the D isn't held for the connection, these people lose a full 20 minutes -- or, conversely, they would have saved 20 minutes had the D run local. But this violates one of my assumptions, so I'll count this as a wash.
I think that covers everyone.
(If I were actually in charge of developing the proper service plan, I'd probably multiply the waits by some number slightly greater than 1, to account for the reduced comfort and safety of waiting at a station compared to riding on a train. I don't know what number NYCT uses. I've heard of other systems that use numbers as high as 2 or 3; before I heard that, I figured that something between 1.2 and 1.5 would be appropriate, but now I'm not so sure. But since I'm only posting to SubTalk, I'll ignore this issue.)
Now we need the results of late night ridership surveys, which I don't have but hopefully someone at NYCT does. Multiply by the relevant numbers and there's our answer.
I'd be very surprised if the answer favors the D express at night, but if it does, I take back my proposal for D local service. I'm pushing for the best plan on a systemwide basis, not for special favors or for borough warfare, unlike some other posters in this thread.
For swapping B & C look at my post:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=546813
C already runs on Weekends and the shorter trains are a good profile for more consistent and frequent local service on the Concourse. If the C attracts more riders it wouldn't seem so lonely on the CPW on weekends. Really there are 3 express options, the D, A(FAR ROCKAWAY), and A (LEFFERTS BLVD), but the frequencies of the two A services is combined equal to the D
the Queens Blvd line has the same scenario on weekends with the R train. Don't be fooled, the G only serves to get people from local stops and onto express trains(E,F)at Jackson Heights and Queens Plaza. It actually only runs becauase of public opposition. In the past it onbly served the stops weekdays and the R was also the loner to Manhattan
I think the idea of 2 express letters and 1 local simply frightens riders, the stops aren't popular, thats why express bypass them and are less frequently served
the B is weekdays, put it back to 168st-Washington Heights, as far as keeping service on the CPW itself, the B and C are never so packed even on weekdays, part of the issue is the long stretch of local stops
now with the elimination of the 9 train, the A and D are ever more popular options
My suggestion, take the J or M up 6th ave and terminate at either 59-Columbus on weekdays and 145st on weekends. This would be like the G in Queens, serving weekends but replaced by the B on weekdays
I A W T P .
So one of the number plates of 9575 was gone and then we leave after about 2 minutes so the car climate was above average; to my surprise! We go through the Manhattn stops and there were quite a few railfans on the 7 today on the whole trip. We go through the tunnel then after Queensboro Plaza I see a W making the turn and then it was time to start the Flushing express on the <7> So we’re going and the T/O does very good on the 1st section of the express then after 61 St we roared down the straight track and at 74 St, as usual there was a HUGE crowd and saw the progress of the rehab and also orange spray paint on the tracks [switch placement?] We got up to 45 and hit 46mph but for only about 3 seconds. So then going up the 'roller coaster' bypassing 111 on the signals I notice that the timers are now equipped with LED’s [the 20mph limit and the “S”] and looked pretty cool 8-). So as I arrive at Main St, I smell the awful sewage and we get a lights out on the switch to the "s/b" local track; perhaps the last on a ‘Bird :-(.
Some notes:
QBP-61 St -- 38
61 St-Junction -- 45
Junction-Willets Pt -- 42
Only 3 Redbirds on the road that I saw so you guys need to get your last rides & pics NOW!
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Up here where I am, it's not uncommon in winter for people to mount up the Hyrail along with the plow blade - in many places in the mountains where dirt roads don't get plowed, the abandoned tracks are often a lifeline until the snow goes away. Strangest thing I ever saw was a Hyrail set on a Volkswagen beetle. Now THAT was strange. But usually they're found on big trucks. I'm guessing that it wasn't MOW equipment.
Looks like you've got a project ahead then. Just make sure your grounds are good, and you radio ahead. Wanna make sure you close those track circuits or it'll turn into a Warner Brothers cartoon on ya. :)
Truck.
Yea.
Truck I guess....
Ah.... I can always offer to wash Monsieur Pirmann's limousine...
Did someone microwave them?
Yes, you're right... it's girder rail (trolley track)...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Bill "Newkirk"
(I think it might be a realitive of the "Rockaway Spider"
: ) Elias
1. A train
2. A maintenance rail vehicle
3. A flying saucer
That should be a clue that line is active, and "thing" in distance is headed this way and has activated signal.
If signal is programmed with timing to allow activation so many seconds before "train" approach, woman with dog should clear track. Also if signals have activated, I imagine "thing" should be whistling for crossing already.
I can't hear it.
: )
Jimmy
Southern California's Rail system maturity right now is basically what the NYC system was like in the 1850's: More like a Railroad, and most people are Still not too familiar with it! So many freakin accidents because of people Not thinking about the mass of a Train versus that of a Car. It's only Nowadays that Grade Elimination is only Beginning to happen, and that more lines are being built (like the new Gold line).
The MAJOR problem these days in building a new subway is that theres so much FRIGGIN Red Tape out there now... Back when NYC's system was being put in, the red tape was almost non-existant... People just Lived with the problems, instead of finding all sorts of excuses to stop construction as they do nowadays. Had the Red Cars stayed in place, LA's rail system could have Easily rivaled that of NYC with how much coverage it had... but alas, it was all torn up in the name of progress...
Ugh... what I wouldnt do for a decent Airport to Train SHUTTLE of some sort out here! (Ontario Airport here in SoCal has a station within a mile, BUT NO BUSSES TO/FROM THE TERMINAL!!!)
Money Train #1 @ 125 St
Money Train #2 @ 96 St
Note, if these aren't money trains, sue me. I'm no expert, but I'm just going by the car numbers and what Lincoln and Ozzy and Adam said.
I like this shot, and I don't mean because some woman has her back to us. I like the way it shows the station.
Elias
Rumor has it that MTA will be switching over to only using armored trucks, and eliminating the money train. This rumor has circulated ever since the movie "Money Train" came out. I do not know how much truth there is to it.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
The booths *are* closer to the street than to the tracks.
Even at night, that thing has got to tie up the railroad, what with having to climb all them steps to the booth(s) at each station. If it takes five minutes at each station, you chew up a 20 minute interval in just four stops.
Elias
til next time
A subway story I wish wasn't true
Perceptions vs. reality ... men are much more likely than women to be the victims of violent assaults. While women fear rape, the number of stranger-on-stranger rapes is very small even in large cities.
No, but our response to those fears, and our choice of discourse, can be.
Second, fear is real. The lady's fear in the story and in my story may be disproportional, but are not unreasonable. There are a lot of ways to put someone in real fear withour ever touching them. In a genuine sense, this is as much (some ways much more so) a theft as if someone put their hand in your back pocket and lifted some money.
Those who play on people's fears often gain a perverse pleasure in stealing someone's feeling of security, but when they get caught they have no end of defenders who ask: "yeah, but what did they really do."
Feel lucky that men rarely have to feel this in the way women do. I was taken aback by my friend's comment both because it seemed an implicit attack on me (as a man) and because I never imagined that someone who looked so big and strong and confident had anything to fear.
Sometimes its worthwhile to listen to people's stories rather than shrug them off. I learned a lesson.
You are right, fear can arise from perceptions as well as from statistical reality, and that makes it no less significant. Getting on topic, this may be why many people are afraid of the subway despite its demonstrably low crime rates. Many stations in particular seem dangerous given their physical nature. Riding on a train also can seem dangerous given the sense of confinement.
Feel lucky that men rarely have to feel this in the way women do. I was taken aback by my friend's comment both because it seemed an implicit attack on me (as a man) and because I never imagined that someone who looked so big and strong and confident had anything to fear.
Some women indeed think of all men as potential threats, an attitude I find reprehensible.
Many fewer than fear particular men acting in a particular way at a particular time and place.
Only because men are more likely to act out their aggression. Eliminate all the cases in which an assault was part of a confrontation or argument of some kind, and just include assaults on people standing there minding their own business, and I think the reality is different.
Research has shown a long time ago that people fear crime more on the subway than in the street, even as subway crime has been consistently lower than street crime.
The reason is that people on the subway feel trapped.
In the subway car the victim feels more trapped and the offender more in control.
You really, really, really did not have to share that with us. But since you mentioned it, am I correct in assuming that mystical chix are most likely to produce a "happy" state?
:0)
At one level the idea is appealing, as I am curious as to why mystical chix have become objects of near-fetish interest among so many men - it is especially puzzling as I do not share that interest, as I've noted before. Even so, I must regretfully decline the offer, on account of my desire not to see the results. Sorry.
Anyway, I couldn't imagine where I'd find any mystical chix to participate in the experiment ... sure, I could hire ones who advertise in the back pages of the Village Voice, but that could be costly.
Peace,
ANDEE
;0)
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
New Haven Train Show this Sunday!
BERA ain't the ONLY train thing around New Haven, brahs!
Does any brah here know their SCHEDULE when/where to catch one of these
pre-ACELA Turboliner consists??
(reference: TRAINS magazine, August 2003)
I vote for Benny Benassi.
Peace,
ANDEE
Jimmy ;)
HAHA! LOL!
G: Sparky "GG" John S.
Nah, he'd probably make crazy announcements like "This is a Coney Island-bound G Express Train. The next stop is: Kings Highway.
R: Anthony Hopkins
Yeah just what we need, to make the Montague Tunnel even more creepy...LOL
"GET OUT OF THE FREAKIN' DOORS!!"
Judge Judy for Station Announcements
George Clooney for Transfers and Stand Clear of The Closing Doors
Ed Asner for delays and safety announcements, and last stop announcements. If not Ed Asner, then the guy who played "Toody" on Car 54(forgot his name) can replace him.
Jimmy
Chuck Greene
Jimmy
"There's a hold-up in the Bronx, Brooklyn's broken out in fight's".....etc. (I forget the rest) (Jackson Heights) etc.
Chuck Greene
WOULDN'T THAT BE GREAT!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Peace,
ANDEE
How accurate is "400-tons", in reference to a full length #5 train?
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
David
Does anyone know how likely a T/O is to experience a 12-9 over a long career? I've heard it said that a railroad engineer has a high probability over a 30 or 40 year career of hitting something human, not to mention many animals.
I was never one for shrinks, and at the time I was a conductor so it wasn't mine. Still had to go talk to the shrink though. For the few months I was out on the road though, never came close to one and actually never gave it any thought. Since I was running Arnines pretty much all the time, my focus was elsewhere. If someone was leaning over, I'd yank 'em a shriek without a thought. :)
Not hard to figure out. Say there are 20 12/9s per year (I don't have the real numbers but that's my impression). That's 600 in 30 years. If a T/O does 30 years and there are about 3000 active T/Os at any one time, the chances are about 20% over the course of a career.
Of course, as others have said, a T/O could get really unlucky and have more than one in a career.
There is a reason why NYCT tells people not to stand at the platform edge. People don't care about that? Nobody asked or forced you to perform such a reckless act, you just made another miserable AM rush on the Lex.
Is there really an explicit rule as described in the article:
"The rules of the job call for them to leave the train and go down and inspect the body, or its parts. They're required to check the body to make sure it is dead. The moment is embedded in their minds forever."
I think this post summarizes my opinion perfectly.
Although when it comes to me, I like the IND Queens Blvd as well. The post is outdated (given almost all the Redbirds are gone) but it gets the points across well.
Post and tell us why you love the Flushing Line.
CPCTC
Sea Beach Fred
Salaam Allah
JCHydra915
CC LOCAL
I'm guessing the blackout had an impact on this or people simply don't care for the IRT Flushing line. You know, there is a lot more to it than the Redbirds!
Full report (for those interested) and pics to follow.
I have long believed that public transit should be an integral part of a neighborhood. A good example of a transit system seemingly designed around this principle would be Portland's Streetcar system. There relatively small low floor LRVs have provided the impetus for a gentrification of a whole portion of the city once blighted by a freeway. In this view the transit system is not at all hidden, but is built in such a way as to minimize it's impact the neighborhood, all while not burying the system.
My friend argued that the transit in a city should be as unobtrusive as possible. This would be the kind of approach that NYC takes to transit, for the most part burying it. In this role the transit is merely a tool for the people in the area to use. Here the transit is buried, elevated, or otherwise kept off the Street. Of course the type of equipment is a bit different, tending toward heavy rail subway trains and such. If anything having an exposed (open cut or elevated) line would decrease the property value along the line, something not found with something along the lines of the PSC.
Sorry if I blurred the lines a bit, but really the question it boils down to is, should transit systems be used merely as a tool for moving people, not to be noticed, or should they be an integral part of the setting of a neighborhood, with LRVs or busses (ETB I'm assuming, cause a heavy diesel line with LRV capacity could have noise issues) right on the street.
Any thoughts?
Another angle: But even though els are obtrusive, Chicago's L is such a trademark of the city that few would want to put the whole thing underground. Tradition matters, too.
Still another angle: While a surface streetcar can enhance urban life like it does in Portland, subway tunnels can become centers of interaction, too. I'm thinking of all the great subway musicians I've heard underneath New York. The subway gives shelter for year-round "street" music that would be a lot harder above ground given the seasonal extremes in climate in some places.
I guess you just have to fit the system to the community.
Mark
Ain't that the truth! It's a real shame that almost all of the urban growth that has taken place since World War II was built with car-only mentality. Now we're having to retrofit our citites with rail transit, which is much more difficult than starting with a blank slate. Of course, some of our cities grew up before transit technology was developed, like New York for example, and these cities had to be retrofitted as well, at least in the older parts of town.
Mark
Issues in Depth: Back to the Future with the Belt Line
Future Transportation Options in the Artery
Mark
NIMBYs, along with the developer of an upper crust high-rise condo who threatened to cancel his project if "that noisy streetcar" ran past the front of his building, put a stop to this. The city of Clayton, whores for real estate taxes just like every city, caved in and withdrew permission to allow surface running. Now it will skirt across the edge of the CBD with only one stop, too far away to walk to the courts, office buildings, etc. Damn NIMBYs!
Easy to say that when MN has a dedicated double track line at it's disposal. NJT does own the M&E and Boonton line (which you will note is extensively single-tracked, quite unlike the double, now triple, tracked Harlem line).
Sounds mostly like you just got unlucky, I've ridden up that way and never had a problem like you describe. And since it is clearly a railfan trip, done for your enjoyment, why worry about the scheduling?
Also, why immediately compare the the M&E and Boonton to the Harlem line? It could be argued that the Harlem is the most prestigious of the MN lines, certainly it's the most isolated of all branches.
When I used to live in Little Falls, I noticed that on the late night trains many times they would just slow down at the stations to see whether or not anyone was waiting or if anyone on the train stood up. If there was no activity, they'd just cruise on by. (I think I recall the conductor confirming where people were getting off when he punched their ticket -- just to make sure they didn't skip anybody's stop).
Did you notice whether or not they stopped at all the stations between Montclair Heights and Dover? Perhaps that's how they made up so much time.
Many of the NJT railfans call this "Shirley Time", after Shirley DeLibero -- the former head of NJT under whom much of this schedule padding occurred.
Take a look at any NJT branch schedule and the padding is obvious. All you have to do is look at the time difference in going eastbound or westbound at the two last stations on the line.
CG
transitblog
Just think "Choo Choo," what a person can do if he decides not to stand by and be a passenger or a spectator, but to take action and get involved and direct the traffic. This is the purpose of transitblog.com.
Regards,
Ikeepon
www.transitblog.com
If your on-line journal encourages people to contact elected officials, the MTA, etc, to get out and vote, that's great. Subtalk does that, too, in a slightly different way.
URL = http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/14/technology/14GRID.html
Fun reading, esp. for you electrical types...
Andrew ;-)
A tiger, in North America? Surely you mean a cougar?
Or do you think that The National Grid, or "Gridco plc" as they call themselves over here, escaped from a circus? Though come to think of it, that might explain the baggy trousers and the exagerated makeup.
Just to bring this back on topic;
London Transport used to generate its own power from a powerhouse in Lots Road, in Chelsea. There was a secondary power house in Greenwich which was used for augmenting the Lots Road supply. The Greenwich power house was originally used by London's tram system, back in the days when we had trams. (London's Greenwich is not as fashionable as NY's.)
Westinghouse Cubic were brought in to advise and implement various upgrades to the Tube, one of which was ditching the dedicated power houses and connecting the Tube to...The National Grid. Would you be suprised to hear that there were some embarrasing difficulties with power distribution when the new system went online?
I recall a cable on the furthest reaches of the Central line eventually being blamed.
I can only think that these guys are getting more ambitious these days:-)
Andrew.
Alan Follett
Hope you feel better!
Having a nasty cold is good if there's a busted sewer pipe in the area, given the diminished sense of smell.
Felt much better this morning though.
A new route proposed, the T line will be Torquiose Blue in color and will run the full length on 2nd Ave, from 125th st to Battery Park.
I think it will have its own style, probbaly something similar to the Archer Avenue Extension and 63rd Street line.
God no. Maybe it doesn't need to be a work of art, but please don't let the SAS be that UGLY! :)
The T will always be the West End to me ;-)
Since the "T"/"TT" was the West End they shouldn't use it for SAS,
but MTA have planned it.
I suggest to use "X" or "Y" for it.
(Q) 125 St/Lexington Ave to Brighton Beach via 2nd Ave local, 63rd St, Broadway Express, Brighton
(U) 125th St/Lexington Ave to Battery Park via 2nd Ave local
(V) 71/Continental Ave to Battery Park via Queens Blvd. local, 2nd Ave local.
(It goes without saying that the 2nd Ave line will be local only.
:-) Andrew
As the FEIS notes, no service to Queens is planned at this time, for the following reasons:
1) Unless some service is routed from Queens through 63rd Street down 6th Avenue, there is no service at 57th Street station. So the F must stay where it is.
2) The 53rd Street tunnel is the most popular, so the TA doesn't want to leave it half empty.
Therefore, if the R goes through 60th Street, there isn't another train available to run down 2nd Avenue. When it was originally planned, a whole new subway was supposed to hook it.
Options?
My suggestion is to build a short subway spur off 63rd Street down into the Sunnyside Yard, and covert two lanes of the LIE to bus-only. A joint bus and subway terminal would allow those riding buses from all over Queens, after a brief ride on the LIE, to transfer to a subway down Second Avenue.
Alternately, the R could run through the 63rd Street tunnel and down Second Avenue, placing one QB express and one QB local in each tunnel. This would cut QB riders off from the Broadway line, however.
--Z--
I once suggested something like this.
Aside from re-routes, one local and one express from the QB line would go to the 53rd and 63rd Street tunnels, while all BMT Broadway trains used the 60th Street tunnel.
Then the Astoria line would be extended, as a three track line, not just to LaGuardia Airport but past it on pillars on the water side of the Grand Central. After stopping at Shea and in Downtown Flushing, it would extend up to the former Flushing Airport in College Point. That airport is in a marsh and mostly unbuildable. So it would be used for park and ride lots and a bus terminal. Local and one-way express service would be run, as on the Flushing Line.
Think about it. From the last parking lot in College Point, the ride on the express would be Downtown Flushing, Shea, LaGuardia, Ditmars, Astoria Blvd, Queens Plaza -- east side of Manhattan.
Everyone in Northeast Queens has cars, and they would use the subway if there was a secure place to park. Manhattanites could also use the lots to store their cars, and take the train to get them when they need them.
Damn NIMBYs.
That could be somewhat solved by a fee (MetroCard or physical) connection between Queensboro Plaza and Queens Plaza.
Not a good idea. We need our "R".
N Bwy
That eliminates service to the station at 57th Street and 6th Avenue.
So what happens with sixth Avenue access via 53rd Street?
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=549122
PS: I've forgotten Lex Av
(T) (63-125 only) 205th Street - Coney Island, Express
(U) (Grand-63 only) LaGuardia Airport West - Avenue U/Kings Plaza, Express in Manhattan, Local in Queens and Brooklyn
(V)LaGuardia Airport East [Marine Air Terminal] - Coney Island, Express in Queens and Brooklyn, Local in Manhattan
(X)125th Street - Coney Island, Express
<X>149th Street - Coney Island, Super-Express
(Y)168/191/200 St - Chambers St, Local
They have white globes and are on all rollsigns in the system.
I can understand the problems that installing safety rails would entail at IND and BMT stations, as the trains that serve them vary in length. But aren't all IRT trains the same length? Why can't rails be installed at IRT stations?
Just go to Times Square, at the north end of the Brooklyn-Bound BMT or IRT platform and you will see why. There is plenty of platform space and some people have a total disregard for their own lives, not to mention not know how traumatic is it for a T/O to be a witness to another uneccessary 12-9.
But this is expensive.
Can't work unless the cars are standarized. If a decision were made now, partitions could be installed after say, 2030.
What could be done sooner? Once ATS/PA-CIS is installed, buttons could be placed along the platform for customers to push if someone fell to the track -- the information could be routed to T/O immediately. But vandals could push the buttons, and this wouldn't help someone immediately in front of a train.
And no system will stop a suicide, though the platform doors could drive them elsehwere.
They are, but the door positions are slightly different.
They used to have them on the IRT. They got rid of them because of the redbird doors did not match those of the LV's.
Just install a glass wall with sliding doors, between the trains and the platforms, like the Airtrain Newark has. Also, with such a thing in place, pressure could be put on the MTA to put AC in the subway stations…
The second one... I took the picture a quarter of a second too early (and I should've been standing further away from those steps).
As close as I've gotten to taking the shot. I did it as the trains left however.
Paul Fleuranges was asked if the MTA had any safety suggestions for people who fall off a platform. He stated:
...that the agency had no official safety recommendations for people who fall off a platform. "If you ask me what I would do, as a regular rider, I would get up to the platform if I could, ask someone for help, or I would try to get the attention of train crew," Mr. Fleuranges said. "But that is not official policy."
The MTA has recorded messages played on escalators to guide riders. There are printed notices on storm doors warning not to ride between the cars or go onto the subway tracks. Conductors alert passengers to watch the closing doors. So why not a pamphlet about what to do if you should fall off the platform.
They should alert the public that the trough between the tracks is not only a mouse run or place that raw sewerage can accumulate, but it was designed to give someone a chance to survive just such a situation as what happened yesterday. Years ago, I remember hearing of the purpose of the trough.
If there was an train coming into the station I think Paul Fleurange's own efforts would have been not the best. Probably lying down between the tracks might have been the best bet, even at Main Street.
If no train was coming I'd run like hell for the far side of the station, prepared at any moment to drop into the trough. The train is already slowing as it moves through the station. The closer you are to the end, the better the chances of the T/O stopping in time.
If you tried to get pulled up, and a train came in, it would probably be too late to get back to the trough. But if you just laid down, you'd be sure to end up under the train.
Instead of clasping each others hands and walking forward, we say nay. It is not untasteful or whatever. I have links to this site on transitblog.com. When I have quoted from this site I have given appropriate credit. This is the correct way the web works. There is no monopoly on the internet.
If I have "invoked the wrath of the webmaster," and if he/she wishes not for me not to do a certain action then I will abide. All I am doing is showing you guys another resource.
cheers
Intimidating enough for employees, I don't know HOW people would react to seeing one up close from the trackbed. :(
Do you mean an externally applied brake, similar to a roller coaster, that could be used to stop a train from the station? How would that a track brake be actuated?
There just aren’t many funny books about going blind. Jim Knipfel has written perhaps the only one, and once you read it, you’ll be thankful he did. Knipfel has retinitic pigmentosa, a degenerative eye disease which renders him blind by the age of 32. In his memoir SLACKJAW, Knipfel describes his experience losing his vision without self-pity; instead, he writes about the free “blind man training” he receives from the state of New York (including visits from the “home survival genie”) and the New York Transit Authority’s free training on what to do if you fall onto the subway tracks. A very funny, moving portrait of a writer’s life and loss.
The MTA and all its consituent autheorities (LIRR, Metro North, the TA, LI Bus, TBTA) are New York State agencies (with NYCTA shared with New York City.) NJT is a New Jersey agency. Not that this makes it impossible.
But my question is..why?
:-) Andrew
Moreover, having different agencies doing essentially the same function allows them to be compared. Not as good as having an actual choice of service providers, but still some way for the public to hold people accountable. Monopolies are bad, whether public, corporate, union, or non-profit.
Nope. You will only result in turning already large bureaucracies into bigger, oversized bureaucracies. Plus, you will have interstate conflicts where none existed previously. Leave them separate…
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
MTA and CDOT seem to get along ok.
Elias
I've noticed that according to the SDEIS, most SAS stations will be built with a central platform with tracks on the outside, and a mezzanine above. This leaves us with an interesting possibility if the MTA DOES intend to leave provision for express tracks; they might be built on the OUTSIDE of the locals, which would be unique in the NYCT system. It would also mean that the express tracks would have to veer to avoid the 'bulge' the stations would give, slowing down their maximum speed. The alternative would be to add the express tracks below the locals. This would be a better running arrangement, but probably quite hard to build, since the entire existing SAS would have to be underpinned... unless it were built the first time with provision to expand under it. Does anyone know of the MTA plans to construct the tunnels/tracks/stations in such a way to ease the construction of a lower level later?
Probably impossible once it's built -- unless you put it on Third Avenue. Unless the tunnels are dug, that would require tearing everything up again, and with the SAS already in operation, there would be no way to use a TBM.
3rd Avenue stops would be
Hanover Square(with SAS)
Seaport(with SAS)
Houston Street(now splits to 3rd Avenue)
14th Street
42nd Street
82nd Street
110th Street
125th Street
138th Street
149th Street
161st Street
174th Street
Tremont Avenue(177th Street)
180th Street
Fordham Road(Metro North)
Bedford Park Blvd-200th Street (now on Webster)
204th Street
Gun Hill Road(210th Street)
Woodlawn-233rd Street(Metro North)
What do think about this:
At Gun Hill Road east, then Laconia north to 233 (or Pitman/Baychester)
My map shows a MN station at Gun Hill/Webster.
Since i can't reach mta.info, i can't prove it.
So the transfer MN<->subway can aslo be done there instead of Woodlawn
Sta.
Just double the cost to $40 billion.
A two track line has plenty of capacity for the service as planned, plus service from Queens if capacity is ever created on the other side. But it forecloses other possibilities.
Specifically, the RPA had advocated using the Second Avenue to solve all the suburban access problems at once. Under their Rx plan a spur would be built to Grand Central, along 43rd Street, through a new tunnel to Secaucus Transfer in NJ (instead of the additional tunnel to Penn); a tunnel would also be built from Whitehall through to the Jamaica station on the LIRR. Thus, NJT riders could change trains at Secaucus Transfer for a quick ride to Grand Central, and both MetroNorth and LIRR riders could get from Grand Central and Jamaica to Lower Manhattan, all without using the subway.
These options were analyzed and rejected in the EIS, in large part because the plan assumed a two track line.
If the spur from Grand Central were run down a two track SAS which also ran the "T," it could only run half as many trains as the Lex Express, and it would also have far more stops. Therefore, the MTA concluded, such a spur would not divert MetroNorth riders off the Lex Express, which is the goal. In adddition, service on such a GCT spur would use the capacity on the SAS trunk that is being reserved for future service to Queens.
But let's say that four tracks were placed on the SAS from 42nd Street south, and the New Jersey-Grand Central spur ran on the express tracks? Then that spur could take 20-30 tph, and would have enough tph and few enough stops to attract MetroNorth riders heading downtown. The express could be extended down Water Street and out to Jamaica, and accomodate the Airtrain as well as the "suburban super connector." The Second Avenue Subway local could use the Nassau option, with either it or the Jamaica line terminating at Chambers Street.
The big advantage of this would be political/financial. The line south of 42nd would become primarily a suburban project, not a city project. Perhaps the express could have separate fare control, and be a double fare for subway riders -- but not for suburban transfers. Perhaps the express tracks could be operated by the Port Authority rather than the MTA.
On this basis, perhaps the entire subway south of 42nd could be financed in large part by a reinstated commuter tax, with the suburbanites funding the "local" tunnels -- which would service city residents -- in exchange for the city accomodating the construction within its borders.
Thanks
The trams connecting the terminals in the Pittsburgh International Airport are outfitted with the 900 MHz pedecessor to the current 2.4 GHz Wi-Fi. They are used for communicating data between the driverless trams and the controller computers in the terminal buildings. If you look closely, you can probably see the gray colored wireless base stations and antennas near the tunnel ends.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I knew I got a battery-powered computer for a reason!
I feel most sorry for the poor folks who were stuck in the East River tunnels. I know I wouldn't enjoy walking through them to Brooklyn or Manhattan.
Whats the big deal? Down the Montegue, the rats find it just fine.
: ) elias
I think the record I've heard for walking so far tonight was a guy who began walking at Fulton St. in Brooklyn at 4:30 because the subways were out of service. At 11:00 he was at 171st St. in Manhattan, and was making his way home to Fordham Road in the Bronx. (I'm not sure I would have even close to that much stamina.) He said he'd never even thought before how he would get home if the entire subway system went down. I'm sure there are plenty of people who never entertained that thought.
Hope everybody gets home safe. And wish that we get the power back before it gets dark...
Hope all of you are safe----Things are ok, for now, here in Baltimore and DC.---
Although, I just got off the phone w/ my mother who's stuck in traffic on the Beltway near College Park----she said traffic towards Silver Spring is much heavier than normal.
Stay Safe My Friends.....
In the tubes (hopefully not stuck)
Mark
There were some near-riot conditions on 32nd Street, just east of Penn Station, as people were trying to crush onboard city buses last evening. Pushing, shoving, yelling, you name it. At least twenty cops and police academy cadets were struggling to maintain order. Things didn't begin to quiet down until at least 10 pm.
Well, 50 posts each, anyway.
We still got power in North Dakota!
: ) Elias
Mark
I guess there will a be a heat-temperature problem with all the hot air that was sent into the tunnels all day from the subway air conditioners.
It is going to be one hell of a commute home once the power gets back on.
What New York needs is more power plants closer to the city, so a problem in Buffalo does not take out NYC.
By far the biggest cause of outages is trouble with a main transmission line.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
(Not that that's impossible, but it's a point that's easily forgotten.)
The real answer to the problem is a redundant power grid. What I lot of people don’t know is the Washington area has a power beltway that surrounds the metropolitan area. All of the power plants that are connected to power beltway connect to beltway along two or more paths. All three of the power plants in southern Maryland are connected to each other over separate paths. Region wide power outages are unheard of down here for this reason.
John
Of course, Chicago has their own electrical problems, though... A redundant power grid doesn't do much good when ComEd's incompetence leads to frequent localized outages whenever somebody sneezes within a mile of a substation.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
We stay powered up when half the east is out.
9 nukes are down gridwide, 14 coal plants are finally boiling and ready to kick in (finally) but those nukes won't be ready until midmorning tomorrow. NYC's slowly coming back as more power comes down from up here in National Grid/Niagara Mohawk land, but Ohio (a MAJOR contributor) may still be down 24 hours from now so it looks like Saturday for 100% restoration ...
Or in this case, a problem in NYC takes out Buffalo ... and Albany ... and Toronto ... and Cleveland ... and Detroit ...
JD
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-outage0814,0,2108807.story?coll=ny-top-span-headlines
Chuck Greene
Elias
And to think I was just up in NYC this time yesterday, riding NJ Transit and LIRR out to Flushing to buy a used car (1989 Volvo 740 for $400), and driving back through Manhattan. Good thing I didn't put off my trip for a day or two...
For what it's worth, Philly and points south seem unaffected by all this. I didn't find out about it until I was in a store this afternoon and overheard an employee talking to a friend on the phone about it.
I think the most frightening thing about all this -- aside from the temporary panic and inconvenience for the next day or so -- is that it demonstrates just how fragile our power infrastructure is. If this was indeed some sort of lightning strike or fire that caused all this, imagine what a series of minor but well-coordinated terrorist attacks could result in.
Sweet dreams....
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
John
Not all of us are at the mercy of the electrical utility when the power goes out. I know at least a half dozen people down here in southern Maryland that have backup generators connected to there homes.
John
Sorry if someone's already posted that.
If they need a lawyer, they can call 1-800-MARGARITA.
On a more serious note, it will be interesting to see how receptive the courts are to lawsuits against power generators, transmitters, and providers. The current standards for suing a utility basically ensure immunity for the utility-even in cases where it was negligent. Maybe with the deregulation trend since then things might change. Maybe public outrage as more is learned about the causes will create pressure for that change-or not. There has been alot of loss because of the blackout-should pay for what they lost or should utilities catch the blame and pay the bills?
Jimmy
About 30 minutes ago, fighter jets scrambled at nearby Hancock Field ... kind of scary to hear that.
Hope everyone else is well.
Jim D.
I spoke to him via cell phone about two hours ago -- says it was pretty amazing watching thousands of people walk over the Brooklyn Bridge.
Lucky timing.
I was at work in enchanted Sterling Forest, NY, when the lights went off, and our backup generator had difficulty starting (probably because the power wasn't completely out for a few minutes - the lights had this weird glow to them). With all network connectivity lost, I drove home. Some traffic lights in Sloatsburg (what am I saying - there's only three :) were working and some weren't. Called up my wife and told her to power down all her computers and leave them off (I'm her I/T department :) Took the kids swimming, had a BBQ dinner outside on the veranda by candlelight as we all listened to CBS 880, and explained to my kids that they were living "history" and this was exactly what happened in 1977.
--Mark
Interesting site from I-95. MNRR train stopped in between New Rochelle and Larchmont. Some passengers had opened the side doors. Crew was letting people down from the train onto the tracks to walk back to New Rochelle.
I actually had it easy. My village has it's own power plant which can generate enough power to cover about 75% of the village. We generate our own power when we can do it cheaper than we can buy power coming off the grid -- yesterday we were buying, so the lights went off for about 30 minutes until they could get the plant fired up. Since then, we had rolling blackouts covering parts of town.
Word spread fast about Rockville Centre having power, though. The few gas stations in town had lines 50-75 cars long by 6:30 PM yesterday when I rolled back into town.
CG
I've done that plenty of times, except I do it usually while at a computer cluster at school. One time I cut power off to five computers and everyone working on them lost everything that wasn't saved. They were PISSED! I got the f**k outta there before they knew it was me that did it. :-)
But ahhhhhh the advantages of commuting by ferry - walked to the 34th st ferry landing and got on the boat to Hunters Point like I always do - normal commute for me - even got home earlier than usual...
My building was in the dark until 3 PM today. The Lower East Side(Where my grandma and a of my friend lives) is still out as recoring to my aunt who lives in Richmond Hill and Richmond Hill got power back at 3 PM as well. I am worry about my Grandma!!!!
My father used a car battery and some alligator clips to power a TV and a small light bulb. We used our cell phone lights and camcorder lights and night vision to get around the house. I was up until 2 AM in the morning awaiting the return of power. I spent most of the day sleeping and putting up with my nephew since there wasn't much I could do.
My father and I learned a few things from this blackout. I'm going to carry a flashlight in my car and in my messenger back in case I'm stuck in the subway without light. I'm also going to buy a heavy-duty battery for my laptop. My father is planning on buying a generator in case stuff like this happens again.
One enjoyable aspect of this ordeal…I saw the stars with my family…
til next time
One interesting phenomenon: the traffic southbound on 3rd and 2nd Aves near here stayed very light for almost 2 hours. But then from 6 PM to 9 PM the southbound traffic moved at about 1/4 mph before it cleared up again.
Northbound traffic on 3rd (which is 2-way here) never got heavy. Allowed southbound emergency vehicles to get through by going on the wrong side of the avenue.
My guess: many people who'd driven into Manhattan decided not to leave right away when the power failed, thinking that it would be back soon and traffic signals would be operating. After a couple hours, however, it was apparent that the outage would be prolonged, and they decided to leave, and take the risk of dealing with nonoperating signals.
So I broke out my screwdrivers and started entertaining the crowd in my car by changing the rollsigns and making phony announcements. The T/O had just announced that there was no signal or 3rd rail power, when all the tunnel lights suddenly went out. At that point I tried to pick the lock on the storm door with my screwdrivers, but no luck. So I went back to work on the sign, waiting for the C/R to open the door and let us out. I changed it to "S" for SAVE US. Finally the C/R opened the door and everyone walked to the last door of the 6th car, then out onto the catwalk then onto the platform. It was PITCH BLACK. The only light came from cops' flashlights and from my camera's flash. We walked up to the street to meet a huge, disgruntled crowd of people. Figuring it was just the subway that was messed up, I walked across town to try and get another train-but nothing was running. After looking at the store windows I realized there was no power at all in Manhattan, and I had no way of getting home.
I wandered over to the 33 St/PATH station, which still mysteriously had power [but no trains running]. I bought something to drink and used the phone, then tried to figure out how the F*CK I was gonna get home. Thinking Queens/Brooklyn still had power, I decided to walk to the Queensboro Bridge then catch a train in Queens. I walked over to the West Side, up to 60 St then thru Central Park [bathroom] then across town to the Bridge. All the suckers were on the sidewalk, I was walking down the street passing everyone, the cars weren't moving at all [a bus got stuck making a turn]. I walked across the bridge, not in the street or on the sidewalk, but in the lane of the bridge supports! Me and a few others were walking faster than everyone in this "lane". (I would regret all this fast walking later.) As we approached Queens, I saw a stalled #7 train on the turn at QBP and some TA workers sitting over the edge...not a good sign. I soon realized Queens didn't have power either. So that meant I would have to walk all the way home...oh boy. After getting a Cherry Ice I traced the B-61 route and walked along it hoping to get a bus. Two went by, both full. The stops were full of people, each containing enough to fill an Articulated bus, just standing there hopelessly.
I walked over the Kosczusako-whateveryoucallit Bridge, then through Williamsburg via the B43 route. Amazingly, most of Williamsburg's stores were still open, serving cold drinks [but no food]. I eventually caught a B43, which I took to the B47 (and nearly got mobbed for my Brooklyn Bus Map-uhh, there IS one on the WALL, you know). My leg seized up several times but after rest I was able to continue walking. I stopped in at the 81st Precinct on Gates and called again, and then walked down Broadway to Eldert, then to Bushwick Avenue, then finally to Chauncey Street, using my camera's flash to light up the street signs and the steps in my house. It was hot as hell when I got back home, and I was unable to sleep. Fortunately my refridgerator was broken in such a fashion that it kept cold (in the past this was a nuisance, but now I was thankful for it) - basically there was a huge suspended block of ice where the freezer was supposed to be. I just basically waited, and waited-with nothing to do-until the lights came back on, at about 2-3 PM on Friday.
I have lost all respect for you. In an emergency situation you do this???????
"I have lost all respect for you. In an emergency situation you do this???????"
You're right. That was an immature stupid thing to do, and I wish there would have been a cop around while he did it...(as if...) If there was a huge flood what would he do? Draw pictures of life preservers and toss them to the drowning folk? This is why I have to laugh when I see posts here that allude to the alleged stupidity of the non-train savvy population. Look at what us train nut "geniuses" are up to when the going gets tough!
Shameful indeed.
Yep. Or use your newspaper to fan that older lady standing next to you also melting on the train waiting until the crew figured out what to do. Or just don't do a dammed thing. I was on that train, I see some knucklehead start f**king with the signs...I'd start thinking about how to take him down if need be. And I ain't no hero so it could get sloppy. Shoot, next thing you know there could be people startin' to scream or something, figuring you're part of the problem and not the solution.
It's just nothing anybody needs to be seein' at a time like that. Do you understand?
I actually was on a stalled train, and I can tell you that anyone thinking to "take down" someone trying to provide levity by playing with signs would have been considered mentally disturbed and we would have all ostracized him (voted off the island, out of the car, etc).
On my train we all thought it was a very local thing (as in just our train, the rest of the world was still moving type thing). Any thought that it was more widespread than that (all the way to Chicago?) was dismissed as BS... Nobody thought terrorism (at least not for more than 3 seconds), everyone was having a grand old time blaming the MTA, grousing about the fare hike, chatting about mundane things with total strangers, and someone doing something like playing with the rollsigns would have helped lighten the mood even more and sparked further conversation.
No one knows how long they'll be waiting. If there's nothing to do, and no one's doing anything interesting, what happens? People start thinking. And eventually someone might think something bad and start to panic. I bet 95% of the people in Dtrain22's car didn't even know those signs could be turned, and were quite amused as to what was on them, maybe started talking about it and not thinking about their current situation, which of course they could do nothing about.
The most important thing to do in any kind of "all you can do is wait" situation is to find something to ENTERTAIN you. The biggest problem is boredom, and thinking "I'm hungry, it's hot, gotta pee" doesn't help. If scrolling a sign helps you and your fellow castaways avoid that, then SO BE IT!
Hmmm. Well, I guess everybody handles things as best they can. I happen to like calmly thinking in such moments. My point was, why add more possible elements of confusion in the situation? When I hear people complain of boredom I can only guess they don't have much to think about. In a stuck train in a tunnel I'd bet boredom is low on the list of emotions felt by the unlucky participants anyway. Anger, fear, confusion and frustration probably come first. People talking to each other is what will calm the crowd down. Not every situation needs a class clown.
I don't need to be "entertained" all the time. Life itself is the finest entertainment. This need for entertainment is a sad statement.
A Freind called me on my Verizon cell phone which worked throughout the blackout
My friend Had a cooler full of food. We hung ou thier to way after midnight
--Z--
Some didn't have it easy
?
There's no Six Flags in Connecticut.
Quite true. We're going to The Mouse next week, and I expect to do a lot of line-waiting.
That explains it! no hydropower! Of course!! LOL!!
--Mark
#3 West End Jeff
Well, since it was a swimming pool from which the people were chased, maybe management dumped some piranhas into the pool.
My mentor was in his backyard pool and when the power went POOM*
he had nowhere else to go but same pool stance.
Filter or not, he stayed put.
#3 West End Jeff
I opened the windows after a while, and attempted to jimmy open the storm door... damned R68s, only ones I can't do, and the only thing that saved me from looking like a fool was some guy in the next car popped out the storm window and was suggesting I do the same, when after 10 minutes of my monkey gesturing he finally noticed the switch to open the door.
Some people had decided the (now unlocked) rear cab was a good smoking location, and off-duty car cleaner guarded the rear storm door from people jumping out.
Sometime around 6:30 they finally decide to let us evacuate... They were lowering us to the trackbed in groups and lighting the ground for us. After dodging extra rails and piles of track plates and crossing to the other trackway, we end up on the northbound Canal st bridge platform (I thought it was tunnel catwalk with bumpy yellow stripe until I saw wall tile). A giant yellow letter floated midair further down the platform....
Exit to street, get water and use restroom from some homeless shelter, walk across brooklyn bridge since police said manhattan br was too crowded, separate from the other passengers I was walking with, find the Atlantic Ave LIRR station and buy soda from the newsstand (at this point it's completely dark out, station is lit only by headlights from a train), notice conductors had flagged down an empty tour bus and asked operator to shuttle people to Jamaica. One man yells out "If anyone's interested the North Shore of LI has power!"
Walk around Brooklyn sidestreets looking for a way to Queens, did NOT WANT to take the B-61, eventually discover (by waiting for cars to illuminate the bus stop maps) the B-38 and take that to the Q-58, and walk home. Big surprise when the driver announced "Myrtle Ave" and I actually couldn't tell if there was an el up there until I saw a pillar...
Incidentally Rego Park got their power back at almost exactly 8AM...
One question, tunnel lights were still on for at least 20 minutes after the track power went out, why didn't they use this opportunity to evacuate instead of waiting to have to go by flashlight?
It may not have been apparent within those 20 minutes that the blackout would be prolonged. In addition, it may have taken longer for evacuation orders to filter down to the train crews.
I was at work on 149th and 3 Avenue. I was on the internet when everything shut off and the emergency lights came on. Not knowing it was a city wide blackout I headed for the 5 train, only to find out the station was being evacuated. So I took the Bx2 to 165th and Morris and stayed up there with my mom, grandfather and father. It was a interesting week to be alive. My lights didn't come back on until Friday at 4:45PM.
On Saturday I called the MTA and found out that because of the blackout all construction was cancelled. I didn't do anything because I was needed. But I want to know did anyone take advantage of this very very rare weekend when all subway service was running normal, no diversions, no skipped stations ? Or was everyone here needed during the weekend?
I'd just started pumping when the attendant announced from the office that the power was off. I didn't think anything of it, having experienced many blackouts in LIPA country at so much as a threat of a thunderstorm. Very stupidly, I went into the office to get a Snapple, and the S.O.B. attendant CHARGED me for the 43 cents worth of gas that went in before the outage hit. Why didn't I just drive away as soon as I knew?!
For some reason, I drove north on Bellmore Avenue a few blocks, managed to survive the lack of lights at Sunrise Highway, and turned west towards the Meadowbrook- even though it would've been safer to take Merrick Road. Motorists were actually speeding through nonfunctioning signals as if they were green. There was a lot of brake screeching at Newbridge Road, but a Nassau police officer was directing traffic at Merrick Avenue to much horn-honking.
Since it was daylight, you couldn't tell by looking at the Bellmore or Merrick LIRR stations that anything was out of the ordinary; the cabbies were milling around as usual as if waiting for arriving trains. There were none stopped on the ROW through the Babylon Turnpike overpass, where I pulled over to try to call home before getting on the parkway. That's when I learned the cruel reality about cell phones and AT & T during a power failure. (I didn't have a cell phone the previous September 11.) Tuning to 1010 WINS only yielded dead air. WCBS was on the case, but at that point the scope of the failure hadn't gone beyond NYC.
Traffic on the Meadowbrook, Southern State and Cross Island weren't any worse than normal inbound at 4:30. Exit ramps that fed into lights were somewhat backed up. There were no trains sitting on the LIRR Main Line overpass on the Cross Island by Belmont Racetrack, though there are often are. There seems to be a popular relay point between Queens Village and Bellerose, especially for the Mineola-Oyster Bay shuttles. Plenty of people were fishing at the Bayside Marina and the jetties by the Throgs Neck Bridge. Wonder if THEY knew? I got off sooner than usual so as not to have to cross Francis Lewis Boulevard without lights.
All I could think the whole way home was that SOMEONE was behind this, even though early news reports downplayed terrorism.
We spent the evening in our co-op's playground/sitting area. I was too hot and anxious to eat, and didn't feel like cold food anyway- darn stoves with electronic ignitions! The Whitestone Expressway, which runs behind us, was surprisingly free to traffic. The usual roar of jets revving up at nearby LaGuardia made it ominously quiet- another stark reminder of September 11.
All I can think is that if I HAD gone to work that day, I probably would've just boarded the subway home when it happened- I get out at 4:00. If I hadn't been on a train yet, I could've gotten home by bus via Ridgewood- normally a nice ride from a busfan point of view.
It seems that most of my co-workers who lived in Manhattan walked over the Brooklyn Bridge and found their way uptown. People from Brooklyn, Queens and the Island used buses or bummed rides. People are still comparing notes.
There's something to be said for taking mental health days.
Well, that's where I was in the blackout of '65, albeit I don't think that's what I was doing...
We weren't affected by this one at our house, although we did travel on Friday from New Jersey to Point Edward, Ontario (next to Sarnia, opposite Port Huron, Michigan) and ran into a couple of spot outages in Canada along the way. Our hotel lost power just before we arrived, but it was a brief "rolling blackout" that was necessary as part of the overall power restoration to nearby affected areas. Up until that time (1830h on Friday) Point Edward hadn't been affected. Port Huron, Michigan, was another story... they had been without power since the start of the blackout and weren't expected to get it back until sometime Saturday. We continued across Michigan on Saturday morning but the only evidence of the blackout was diminished water supplies (something to do with the main reservoir's filtration system having been down). No problems on our return east Sunday and Monday.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Probly CNN... be that as it may, some busses were not running. How could things leave the pork authority, if the building is pitch dark. Some local routse were undoubtedly killed to use the busses elsewhere, to empty our Manhattan, etc.
So while busses were running, many ROUTES and Services, might not have been, and it would have been unfair to send people out to their bus stops on a line that might not be running at the moment.
Besides, it makes better copy for the press the way they reported it.
Elias
What about Martz, Greyhound, Trailways, Peter Pan, Red and Tan...
and on and on and on.
Elias
-Jim
"but have met with criticism that they often result in gentrification and displacement of current residents."
That complaint is common to many redevelopment efforts, not just transit-related. How will you know if transit specifically has a disproportionate effect?
In the big picture, I think it comes down to this: The first rule of property value is the old cliche "location, location, location." The middle of a city is a prime location. Postwar development patterns abandoned the most valuable real estate as if it were disposable, and left it to the poorest of the poor. Now that the folly of the past sixty years is being realized, that land is returning to its actual value, meaning the people who have lived their in the meantime can't afford to stay there.
This is sad. I think some effort has to be made to keep from diplacing people, while at the same time luring more affluent residents who can hold up the tax base. I don't know a whole lot about mixed-income development, but I'd like to learn more.
Mark
Mark
Finally, you may want to check out the books "Transit Villages for the 21st Century" and "Transit Metropolis" by Robert Cervero.
Good luck!
I just heard a report that the system will be evacuated (NYCTA).
NIS 1/9
By the way, that westbound trainset consisted entirely of newly-refurbished cars, with electronic interior signs and automated station announcements.
--Randy B.
Anyway, welcome to subtalk. It's good to have a Baltimore rider on the board. That's a system we don't hear too much about here.
Mark
"System?" One heavy-rail line and Schaefer's Folly Trolley do not a system make, and of course we expect no relief from Gov. Ken Doll any time soon. I'd love to see an east-west line generally along U.S. 40, from Rolling Road to Rossville Blvd., but it ain't gonna happen.
--RB
Actually, there is a plan in place to promote rail transit in the region. You're right though, 'ol Bobby isn't the greater supporter of them, he'd rather have BRT.....One thing he is letting the region work towards is the extension of the Green Line (the existing Metro) to Morgan State and the Red Line from the Social Security to Fells Point (a new line the we hope will be heavy rail but it hasn't been decided yet). In case you haven't seen it yet, there is a site, www.baltimoreregiontransitplan.com there it will show you the ENTIRE plan that encompasses the light rail and Metro and other areas of the Metro area....the Red Line and the Green Line extension have been established as high priority.
Also, there is a site devoted to Baltimore transit enthusiasts...
www.btco.net
Check it out..
Mark
p.s.---there are two Mark's in this thread...
I too am from the B-more area----there is a forum dedicated to the Baltimore system (mostly about the bus system, but there is talk about the Metro, Light Rail and the Regional Transit Plan.
You can find the site at www. btco.net
Mark
--RB
Anyway, she said sonething along the lines of " It's getting dark and all those people heading to the bronx should think twice, and be really careful where you walk and be sure to walk in a group." I mumbled at my TV," Why don't you STFU, because this 'crime riddden boro full of projects and gangs and everything bad' is the only place in the city with power, how about that!" That lady really pissed me off. It's people like her that leave the UES, come to the central and north bronx and balk at the prices for real estate. "OMG, is'nt this supposed to be the poor borough?"
Not that I disagree with you completely (I do agree that execs do miss out on the consequences a lot).
Let's see: We want power, but we don't want utility lines and power transmission towers (NIMBY). We don't want to lay cables in the water.
We don't want even to replace power plants (NIMBYs in Queens). Some of do some really stupid things like protest Indian Point.
So we deserve what we get, at least in part. Enjo your time in the hot seat, sir; you share a bit of the blame, as do 25 million other people in the NY region...
That all said, OUR trusty power company spit the bit on this one (Niagara Mohawk, owned by National Grid of the UK) ... what we had here was a COMPLETE REPLAY of 1965 with the major difference that everything tripped off before generators got turned into molten piles of mush on the floor like 1965. So it didn't take QUITE as long to spin them up since apparently not many (or possibly any) were damaged by the load wrapup as others tripped out.
OK ... so why did I put "Microsoft" up top? There appears to (so far) be no known CAUSE of the blackout of a mechanical type. While the power was off, the Reliability Council and ISO (Independent System Operator) were doing RF checks on all the transmission lines, and no lines were down or grounded. (these operators are here in Albany and they were on TV explaining) ... I worked for the PSC until I came into what I'm doing now in 1996 and was involved with power issues among myriad other things and this event was an "I told you so" to the twits at the PSC who had their thumbs up their ... umm ... nevermind.
As part of the "modernization" plans for NYS utilities, they were required to ditch their nice, cozy, UNIX based "30 year old technology" on private networks for nifty Windows 2000 boxes connected to one another on the internet. Sure hope part of the investigation revolves around a certain OS having been updated for the RPC/DCOM vulnerability which has resulted in MSBLAST and others. I *hope* National Grid didn't fall victim to a system exploit.
Meanwhile, I was monitoring national weather service radar at the time things blew, there were no CLOUDS, much less lightning activity anywhere in the zone. There was no FIRE at a power plant across the border from Canada. So this one's going to be quite the mysetery until the FERC investigations are done. Given though that the grid (and the state) runs on Windows2000 and that the STATE has been kicked in the head with this exploit/worm, only seems to follow that on advice and recommendation and failure of oversight by the PSC, it's QUITE possible that the problem might well have been a Microsoft-induced problem.
I hope this angle is covered in the investigation, that's why I slapped this here. A *lot* of people were stuck in the subways, I had a battery TV going with my satellite, and I saw the WCBS-TV shots of the trains stuck on the Broadway line near Dyckman. So there's "on topic" ...
Given the spin being applied to this, something doesn't smell right. And knowing that the official "explanations" swirling at this moment are BULLSHIRT, it sure does make me wonder WHAT REALLY HAPPENED.
"Windows has detected a fatal error in your power grid."
Reboot.
Speaking of computers and such, I wonder how many blown microprocessors they're going to find in R142s and R143s when power is restored?
Yeah, I wonder how well those clamp diodes worked. Then again, knowing the flash dynamics of current collector sparks, I'll bet everything survived except for the poor schlumps sitting out the on the railroad waiting for the signals AND the rail to wake up. And I just KNOW folks are sitting in their cabs waiting to roll. Going to be a HELL of a mess once things start rolling again - look at what a small glitch does to the railroad.
The thing I'm hearing Utility reps (Con Ed, O&R, LIPA, PSE&G) say on TV now is that due to its complicated nature, the engineers are straining to figure out how the system is going to come back. It's not like simply winding up all the generators and throwing a few switches. It has to be done extremely methodically and in the right order in order to ensure a successful restart. Otherwise additional damage to the system could occur.
I hate to sound like Jack Lemmon in "The China Syndrome", but from what I can gather from tonight's experience, the safety systems of the grid worked.
In electrical systems, safety devices (like circuit breakers) are designed to remove the load from the source in the event of an overload. That appears to be what happened when the system cascaded down. The big difference between this and 1965 is the amount of time it took to bring the whole grid down. In 1965 it took several minutes. (There is, for instance, an aircheck on the internet of Dan Ingram on WABC as the power was failing in 1965. The songs and jingles kept playing slower and slower and slower until finally the power dropped out completely). This time it took only a few moments for the entire grid to go down. My guess is that's because of the advancement in monitoring, safety devices, and control of the grid.
The BIG question here though is WHAT caused the "the safety
systems of the grid worked" when in fact reports out of NYISO were that there were NO overloads, NO failed feeders, no NOTHING. Why did it decide to kick trips when apparently at this point, there was no NEED to. THIS is what raises the "did the grid get HACKED by kiddies exploiting the RPC/DCOM hole in Windows2000/NT/XPee?" I'm NOT saying there's any evidence but if so many STATES got hacked this past week, who's to say the power companies were all patched up and properly firewalled? Definitely something the investigators need to look into and determine thumbs up or down.
Once upon a time, when the grid was FEDERAL, and UNIFIED, things worked. What went wrong in 1965 was that several utilities were DUMB enough to think they could manage the ever rising load as generators tripped off from undervoltage and phase angle madness. ConEd bravely (but STUPIDLY) tried to absorb the load, which is why "Big Allis" was found in a pool of copper on the factory floor. Also why it took so long to bring things back because armatures were warped, burnt and severely damaged.
A lack of a phasing feed for NYC was ALSO a problem, which is why that aircraft carrier had to be brought in before they could start spinning rotors and plugging them in again. It was a hell of a mess. As to the restart THIS time, it was a lot easier because fiber optic provided reference phase angles for startups, and the BIGGEST reason for such a short spinup was because there are so many Natural GAS turbines on the grid, especially those jet engines placed on standby around the state. The coals shut down as did the nukes. They had to be restarted from COLD. The coal plants are kicking in as I type but the nukes won't have tea on the kettle until tomorrow (today if you're reading this as you wake up) ...
The grid BECAME "complicated" because of political dogma, that of deregulation. Now, instead of ONE responsible party, there's hundreds. Different generation suppliers, wholesalers, Enrons and other small little balkanized entities, all orchestrated by a NYISO (Independent System Operator) ... had it BEEN a unified system, then we would have had a trip, followed by a reset as soon as each plant coule rephase. Instead, they all shut DOWN entirely, not even dropping back to "hot standby" but OFF entirely.
This is not good. Wish I had the time to elaborate, but the whole republican house of cards FELL on Thursday. Dramatically so, Brit Rail style. And at the center of it all was the deregulated entity of Great Britain, National Grid itself - the Brit Rail of electric companies. I thought NoMo was bad ... these clowns are REAL corkers. :(
Deregulation. Any questions?
A tripout on the other side of Ohio would have been responded to by dropping the connection to THEM which would have preserved the power here. Something ELSE happened, but of course everyone was SO preoccupied with getting it back up that details aren't available as yet other than there was no good reason for the NY grid to go down. A cutout would have solved the problem if it was on a foreign piece of the system.
Then again, with so MANY players now instead of a unified grid, anything's possible. FWIW, the lights are slowly coming back on in your direction - shouldn't be much longer. South Bronx was back on, Westchester and LI are lit right now, so it's starting to flow your way. I'd EXPECT more troubles tomorrow (later today) though if people get stupid and turn on their A/C's or if the subways start drawing their massives.
Since Jersey's still relighting, there's no spare watts for tots across the Hudson from PSE&G, nor is there from CT so you guys are beholden ENTIRELY to the wires that go by here. The BIG problem is Indian Point won't relight until sometime towards noon, so anything can happen until you guys have your local power sources back online. THEREIN lies the delays - you're using OUR power right now and because of morons to the north of the city, they can only send so much to Dunwoodie before the wires glow and drop to the ground. :(
I still can't get over what a mess the new regime of deregulation has caused in what would have been a real easy kick things back on again. The 1965 and 1977 power outages took so long to recover from because a NUMBER of generating plants were seriously damaged and couldn't crank. THIS time, none were damaged since this wasn't a "real" event. The reason why it's taking so long to throw the switch is SOLELY because there's no homogenous power company anymore. :(
Could it be that the generators must have a reference from the rest of the "grid" in order to syncronize? This is nearly always the case when running AC generators in parallel.
An external timing signal taken from the power distribution network will be too likely to vary as loads are added to the network to allow any useful amount of pre-syncronization to be achieved. A very frustrating state of affairs when you have a local generating capacity and a local load waiting to use it.
So the generators don't necessarilly need electricity to make them turn, but do need to "march in step" with all the others when they are on-line.
Andrew.
-Robert King
Keep on truckin'.
Hey that's the FAR northeast US. Careful, if mounties find out, they might think you're invading. ;-)
There were a total of 600 stranded at the time of the blackout. All but six trains have now been evacuated.
A railfan's dream:
An amateur "videographing" passenger on the train rolled a tape of the conductor's actions on board the train on his car. The consist was at best I recall a R40 Slant, as the conductor gave a reassuring and informing speech about how he was not able to discharge passengers right away, taking precautions that the power might come back on. He rolled the tape again as the passengers got up to finally exit the rear of the train through one set of doors through an emergency shaft, meeting daylight over 2 hours later.
I know you are all on the job, helping make this outage as tolerable as you can, and we all thank you for your efforts.
As ALWAYS, our transit professionals made it look so easy. A tip of the hat to you ALL! :)
One thing that impresses me to no end though - VERY few injuries throughout this mess, no unusual deaths and as usual, New Yorkers show that they're generally not bedwetting cowards like our LEADERS. But more so than a testiment to automated trains, what we have here is PROFF that this whole "deregulated" nonsense has turned Laissez Faire into ROLLER DERBY. :(
If we truly HAD a national grid, since there were no major failures (according to FACTS currently at hand - I'm still talking with friends of mine working through the night DESPERATELY trying to get NYC relit and finding SOME way to get electrons SOMEHOW to the city (as always, we've got PLENTY of spare electrons, but no way to GET them to you owing to a lack of transmission lines available) and they're saying that this whole mess should NOT have happened, there were NO failures in this piece of the grid other than the mystery failure that was NOT of "mechanical origin" ... it's leaning MORE and MORE towards COMPUTER failures! And just what might those failures be? Nobody knows at this point.
Once power's back on, should be an interesting investigation. While terrorism has been ruled out, "SABOTAGE" remains the leading suspect. My scenario of "HACKED" is NOT off the table. I suggested that the nightly tape backups of the utilities to check versions of the DCOM/RPC patch states from the backup tapes of the system "folders" might shed light on the cause. If they're NOT the patched versions, then it's quite likely that Microsoft's vulnerabilities are the cause of this problem. Of course, I have a personal interest in this being the outcome - the State of New York agreed to purchase our security software but still hasn't bothered. New York State's office of Technology was hacked beyond belief earlier this week. It's quite likely the utilities could have been as well. MSBLAST and a raft of other RPC/DCOM exploits have been completely out of control, and antivirus software has NOT covered their butts. (don't want to sound like a self-serving commercial here, but we put out bulletins several times in the past week about this, as have many others) ... security is the ONE thing our "leaders" just don't get. :(
But something smells really Flushing-like about this gambit. And while Jersey Mike flamed the Prime Minister of Canada as the source of "must be lightning in America that caused it" that information came from our OWN idiots, not Canada. They ALSO attributed a story that Canada denied that the "Security Minister" of Canada said the whole thing was caused by an American nuclear plant. Something STINKS here with all this spin ... you'd THINK it'd be a greater priority among the republicans to just get the lights back on and settle this LATER. Nope. :(
Now that the grid's been balkanized into Keyspan, and Biff and Bunny's wind turbine company, no longer can a coordinated approach to a "transient" be handled. :(
Yes indeed, the Arnines had battery-powered bulbs running off the 36 volts ... over a few of the doors (don't remember the details after all these years) bulbs would kick on off battery and last as long as the batteries were good for. Dim as all getout of course ... I figure probably 20-30 minutes maybe. But don't count me as an expert here - maybe Jeff H, keeper of the sacred collection at Branford might have an actual set of details ... while I was on the road, didn't have to deal with anything like this long enough to have taken notes. :)
The batteries were for CONTROL of the car - but in emergency service, they would have helped somewhat. I note that the various video shots of dead trains I saw all seemed to have been lit. I doubt it was from third rail, so current subway cars seem to have remained lit long enough to get folks out of them from what I saw ...
But as to the pundits, they're UNDERSTATING the severity of the mess our leadership (and laissez fairies) have created ... and the end is nowhere in sight. After all, profit motive has been COST-cutting and apparently we haven't cut back far enough. At least "light out in Iraq" has a valid excuse. We bombed the PHUCK out of THEIR grid. What's OUR excuse? :(
I was thinking about corporate greed and bottom line profits myself as a possible contributor to what happened. Thanks for the train anwsers. So with the back up emergency lights the reports of pitch black subway cars was a bit hyped?
As to "pitch dark cars" I'll have to suggest that I BELIEVE it was possible. The PURPOSE of the battery backup "emergency lights" was PRIMARILY to provide some illumination as cars passed over third rail gaps and "blinked out" in travel. And in the event of "power removed" would provide some lighting for a SHORT period of time. Bear in mind that some folks were trapped in dead trains for upwards of two hours or MORE, so it'd be no surprise that the batteries would run down by the passage of THAT amount of time. Thus, I'm not surprised and wouldn't doubt the veracity of the reports. Incandescents DO suck down some power and while subway car batteries are somewhat substantial, imagine how long your CAR would last with 5 (I think there were 5 or 6 emergency lights PER CAR) sets of headlights left on in the parking lot.
I don't have reason to doubt that cars were dark ... all I can say is I saw some toasters on wheels on the video the NYC stations are feeding to satellite for the rest of the world, and I saw several car classes with what looked like emergency lights lit - and a couple of them had that R143 funky fencing seat edges, so mighta been 143's or 142's with the fluorescent lights still on. Some cars looked FULLY lit through we know the power was out, and folks were coming out of those cars to the trackbeds ... and ONE of them (picture on my little LCD TV was really shabby in resolution) looked like storm door open, car FULLY lit, HEADLIGHTS LIT as well as front route sign all lit up pretty well ... now we all know the power was out, yet it was lit. And folks being dragged off and walking right across the third rail boards off the train to the platforms.
So I guess that stuff's working MUCH better than it used to. Dunno how long it was though before they got evac'd where the cameras were there to bag the footage ... somehow I guess it was more than 20-30 minutes though.
ECONOMISTS realize what a pile of cowpie this all is ... same for republican Alan Greenspan ... his words and reports sum it all up RATHER nicely as to the screwage at work on the D train (see? On topic moment! Wake up the neighbors!) and all the OTHER trains. But Rush Limbaugh can't read, and Shrub ... well, he's out fundraising. Hell ... took him what? Two WEEKS to show his face at ground zero? (worst disaster NYC's ever suffered and look how long it took for brainboy to figure out where NYC, Texas was) ... but hey, let's bow down ... he actually took a few seconds for a photo op to wring his hands over the mess HIS party created in our power grid, and that was certainly lost time for his fundraising efforts. All hail, J! (from the movie "MIB II wherein an R32 was turned into a "energy efficient subway" - whoohoo! ON TOPIC again!) OH, J can you see?
Minda ya, I've always BEEN a REPUBLICAN (except for occasional reregistrations as a democrap to show them I was unhappy) so I'm on the Barry Goldwater philosophical end of the spectrum (I've also been Libertarian) ... I believe that government exists to stop GLOBAL, REGIONAL and LOCAL BULLIES ... "if you HARM people, you're going to do time" ... "if you're minding your own business and NOT harming people, get the PHUCK out of my face. This is MY property, go away" ...
Government should be in the business of doing things the private sector is UNWILLING or UNABLE to perform. Government should ALSO be in the business of providing monopolies that are NOT economically viable for private industry to successfully pursue. I believe that corporate conglomerates *ARE* cartels and therefore UNAmerican, and that the TRUE America resides in SMALL business who actually HIRE and MAINTAIN people and PAY their taxes. Cartels purchase exemptions and special situations when they PURCHASE politicians. Purchasing politicians is called *BRIBERY* which has been legalized and is the WAY of things and yet nobody seems to mind. HUH!?!?!?!?!?
Mail me $50,000 ... Joe Bruno's got cancer and he OWES me. I'll talk to him. :)
GEEZ. Lemme put it this way - I'm as STRAIGHT as it gets and the repubs of today make me sick. The purpose of government is to regulate THUGS ... INSTEAD, it seems as though the purpose of government is to regulate *SEX* ... huh? It's bad enough republicans have turned into neanderthals ... so much for evolution, it's against the law. But GEEZ. You mean MY party also endorses extortion, bribery, theft and RAPE? NO ... SAY it ain't so!
Sadly, it's true. Words cannot describe my embarassment. That's why my voter registration records now say, "not enrolled." FUGGEM. :(
Woulda thought for sure a dip in the grid woulda made HALLIBURTON show up to "rebuild da infrastructure" ... oh yeah, Cheney/Halliburton's only interested in SADDAM's infrastructure. No fixa the subway so it can RUN today. Whoops. Pardon me. :(
Which is bad news for the adult diaper companies. Instead of eight million potential customers, they have maybe a few thousand.
I've been watching American TV for the past day and a half (we only had a 12 hour power failure before Ontario Hydro brought up enough generation to start reintorducing power provided everybody behaves and conserves it so as not to blow it back out) and some of the stuff that they've been making up - and it's quite obvious that the land of make belief is their #1 source - about Canada and all things electrical in general has been truly laughable and/or dumbed down incredibly.
-Robert King
Never a dull moment in the amusing ways of the American Ministry of Truth. Heh.
One of your networks actually did mention that "America's largest power failure" did manage to wind its way into Canada and take out almost an entire province. I think they might have even said Ontario's name. They showed one clip of the QEW leading into Toronto but the rest of that 30 second clip was stock footage of downtown Montreal and a trolley bus driving across an intersection in Edmonton - after all, I somehow doubt that they would have stock footage of the leased Edmonton trolley buses actually running in Toronto just before abandonment.
"And the blackout even went out of America and into parts of Canada..." Oooh. The shock and awe. That was needed about as much as the power failure itself. Jeez...
-Robert King
Semper foo.
We'se in serious poo. It WILL happen again. :(
From the way things seem to be looking, you should be able to cop a nap in the lead car before you actually have to do that key-turning thing. You can't move until everything on your line's territory is there again or can at least reach a layup yard. My sympathies in all seriousness, but they WILL make all this worth it once payroll catches up with reality.
At least we had lights and heat. I'd be MIGHTY grumpy being stuck in the dark with no food, water or communications. I won't get into why people leaving newspapers behind was a handy thing after all those hours, though I'm sure many many pages of the POST were used "appropriately." :)
Peace,
ANDEE
The only one that will be happy on payday is the IRS.
Umm, sad, but true.
Peace,
ANDEE
Neither did I. After I was finished, all I wanted to put in was my fat ass into a tub.
On what line and between what two stops was the train traveling when the accident occurred? Was this line a forerunner to the NJ Transit? Thanks to anyone who can help answer these questions.
Dave
What happened to the "dead man's handle?" Shouldn't that have helped (I assume they had those devices in 1958)?
As I mentioned in a different accident post to the same question.
He wasn't DEAD yet! You can pass out and still keep your hands (or feet) on the controls. Happens in hichway accients all of the time, someone dozes off. If he would have died, he would have gone limp, fallen over and tripped the dead-man brake.
Indeed the dead-man brake did function, but only too late to stop the train from running over the bridge.
Unless you want to believe the Allistar MacLean spy story that it was caused by an ENEMY AGENT because a COURRIER on that train....
: ) Elias
As for NJ Transit, all Jersey Central main line passenger trains were rerouted away from the bridge and Jersey City Terminal in April 1967 when the Aldene Plan went into effect. Instead, CNJ trains used the LV and PRR to reach Newark's Penn Station where rail or PATH connections could be made into NY City. The line over the bridge continued to see passenger service, an hourly shuttle running between a main line connection at Cranford and Bayonne, the large city located east of Newark Bay. In 1979, during a budget crisis these shuttle trains (usually RDCs) were discontinued. A year or two later the bridge, now owned by Conrail which had a second Bay bridge upstream, was dismantled.
BTW, Paul is right. When coach 932 was lifted from the waters of Newark Bay (it had been the third coach, the one that hung up on the bridge pier for several hours) "CNJ 932" was clearly visible in news photos and it did indeed come in as the number that night.
Finally, the lead unit, 1532, was rebuilt by EMD and upon it's return was banished to freight service in Pennsylvania -Central Division passenger crews considered it jinxed. But in 1976, within weeks after Conrail had taken over, the unit was photographed on the old Jersey Central main line once again hauling a passenger train (and of ex-CNJ passenger cars too).
Basically train #3314 went into Newark Bay through an open drawbridge, 2 GP-7 locomotives and 3 cars went in, rest stayed on the bridge; 48 were killed.
Bridge (the longest 4 track bridge in the world) was between Elizabethport and West 8th Street Bayonne. Railroad between these points, these stations, and bridge are all gone. Bridge demolished c.1980.
Trains on this mainline ran to Johnston Avenue Jersey City (terminal preserved), where ferries took commuters and cars to lower Manhattan, Liberty Street.
CNJ mainline went as far west as Scranton, Pa., with numerous other branches including South Jersey. Parts of CNJ between Cranford and High Bridge are now incorporated into it New Jersey Transit's Raritan Valley Line.
Uhh, lady, this blackout wasn't the MTA's fault you fat pig!
How do you know? The official cause is not known yet.
A number of news outlets have reported that the cause was a lighting strike in Niagara Falls.
John
From where I am sitting, this will be forgotten compared to what happened down here in North Beach Maryland back in 1998.
14 days with little or no power because of an ice storm. As quick as BGE repaired one section of primaries knocked down by fallen trees another section would be pulled down by another tree. The ice storm was concentrated in an area of roughly 10 square miles. BGE shortly after went on major blitz in there service area cutting trees away from power lines. As part of this project they put up remotely controlled switches on the polls at regular intervals to isolate section of the local distribution system and replaced the substation in Chesapeake Beach and at the Navel Weapons Research Center south of Chesapeake Beach.
John
We lost power around 4:15 just like NYC. My hometown (Westport) got their power back a little after 11 PM, however there are still thousands of customers in Fairfield County who are in the dark. -Nick
Conductors had opened the rear-end door and were helping passengers down onto the tracks. There was a stream of about 30 or 40 people that I saw (some carrying huge suitcases -- on their heads!!) walking back along the tracks toward New Rochelle.
CG
Metro North is still completely shut down until further notice and no word if there are buses replacing some train service; the LIRR does have shuttle buses east of Jamaica on their branches as well as from Flatbush Av and Penn to Jamaica.
Well well, just look at the wonders of the modern age now...
:0)
And deduct 25 cents per day for shovel rental.
Well, at least the sarcasm machine is up and running now that the juice is flowing again.
Imagine, the interlocking at Sunnyside Yard being named after him...
Implied Mike, or impLODE?
There, that settles it...
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Robert
til next time
What Gray Davis did for California is HE got the lines built. Now you guys are going to throw him out for solving that problem. Ah well. Life in California's about to get interesting, but it won't be power failures ... you guys took CARE of your problem. We DIDN'T ... :(
Ahnold (who has 1/4 the brainpower of Shrub) (make your own joke)
or "leave it alone" ...
Hey, I live in upstate New Yawk ... I gots George ELMER Patukey and Joe Bruno ... how bad can it BE out your way by comparison? REALLY! :)
But it's up to you folks. Personally, I'd go with Larry Flint. He'd drive Disney into Canada. Heh.
Jay Leno:
"Major electrical problems in the northeast today. The power is out in New York, Cleveland, Detroit, Buffalo, and Toronto. Gee, I didn't even know Grey Davis was back east."
Given that it takes 6-8 hours to restore service and it's 3AM as I type, it's pretty obvious that the morning rush hour's a goner. All of the MTA sites are DOWN as I type presently, so it is strongly suggested for your OWN sanity that you check to see if they're up while you're reading this and watch for the advisories.
Chalk it up as a loss, bang in a day off, go back to sleep. If we get past today, we should be OK for Saturday and beyond, but today's apparently going to be a lost day for city folks. Maybe deregulation ain't such a bad thing ... day off. :)
LIRR ... NO rush hour service planned for tomorrow as of 03:07.
MNRR ... hasn't decided as of the moment.
SIRT ... hasn't decided as of the moment.
NJT ... Saturday schedule.
SCWOO it ... stay home. DON'T run appliances, especially Air conditioning or it's quite likely it'll go down the loo again.
LIRR ... NO TRAINS PLANNED as of 04:47.
MNRR ... NO TRAINS EITHER.
SIRT ... NOPE.
NJT ... "LIMITED" Saturday schedule.
PATH ... ON TIME, FULL SERVICE.
BUSES ... will be coming to a full stop at EVERY intersection - no traffic lights.
AMTRAK ... closed.
SHUT IT DOWN. And as before, DON'T run appliances, especially Air conditioning or it's New York goes Iraq again. And since NYC ain't got oil, won't be no piecekeepers.
OFFICIAL!!!
NO SUBWAY ... forget it, pack it in, go BACK to bed. There will be NO subway service until Indian Point is back online this afternoon. There is not enough power to bring back the CITY, much less the trains.
If you're not on PATH, or NJT, you're SOL. And once you get into the city, you gotta HIKE it. NYSE still plans to open, don't see HOW. Film at 11, I go bed myself.
NYSE has back up generators so they can open but seeing the AM rush is kaput, I don't really see the point since many people will call in but hey we gotta keep on going :-). Same thing goes for many workplaces around the city, lots of people will call in sick.
Paturkey declared a STATE OF EMERGENCY last night and it's STILL in effect. Under a state of emergency, you cannot be fired for not showing up - unless you're a civil servant of course ... then you go to jail. :(
But yeah, New York's closed. Parts of it may be lit, but it's closed. And to think - we expect it would be TERRORISTS that did this. Turns out it's plain old republican dogma that took out the city THIS time. :(
I guess that's the MAJOR reason for all my rants - politicians are EVIL ... and there's FEW exceptions. They DO exist however ... you can TELL the HONEST politicians - they're the ones constantly being vilified and minimized by the corrupt ... an HONEST politician is the one(s) you see constantly getting hammered. Or ignored. ('cept by ME of course, heh)
But for 12+ years of my life, I served the public with all my heart and soul. Got NOWHERE by honestly presenting the technicals and provided multiple ways to win. But my sense of purpose was always directed towards the public, and those who actually SERVED them. Politicos serve THEMSELVES. Look at Paturkey ... THIS mess of "deregulation done by lobbyists and Al D'Amato" is WHAT resulted in this blackout. PSC has PLENTY of engineers and REAL economists who could NOT make this BS work no matter HOW we tried to bend it to suit the politicos with deregulation fever. Many WORKABLE solutions were recommended, WITH SAVINGS to the investor owned utilities. Nope - repubs wanted ENRON in NYS.
Yesterday and a few days to come were DESIGNED by ENRON ... here ya are. Just like California. Hmmmm ... maybe it ISN'T Gray Davis' fault, but rather Paturkey? It'd be no more fair to sink Paturkey for this either any more than Gray Davis. REALITY is it's Dick Armey, Newt Gingrich, Ken Lay, and the REST of the republicans that brought yesterday upon us ... those of us in the PSC *WITH* electrical engineering experience PROVIDED plans that would have NEVER let this happen. John O'Mara, Maureen Helmer, and now Bill Flynn have GIVEN you this mess. Along with other $cumbag commissioners on the PSC since Raygun.
And this ain't over. But this, and many other republican explosions in our faces (like WTC) are the reason for my rants. As someone who spent a big piece of my life as a public servant, I cannot FATHOM why folks let these bastards get away with this sidewalk act over and over and over and over again. :(
Back in the "old days" before deregulation, all they had to really worry about was LOADS. They'd measure a neighborhood, calculate how many kilowatts they'd need for "kick-on" an tell a generator "foreman" to crank it up, then they'd close the switch.
NOW, they no longer OWN the generators and have NO control. And with a few dozen different generator companies, each ONE wants to be the one that cranks when a demand call comes in at "premium price" so when a load appears today, they ALL push, overload the SUPPLY side hoping that THEIR electrons get billed, and bring down the house of cards.
The old "monopoly" was QUITE orderly. Now we have rollerball. That's why it's taking so damned long. It's the wild wild west as far as electric supply goes these days and no order. :(
As for the Billyboxes, they're probably surreptitiously hosting porn sites now unbeknownst to the admins. :)
Thank the heavens power is back here in my humble abode of Queens. I dare not set journey for any other part of thr city, though.
Uh huh. But those darn laptop keyboards...
Seriously though, what you are describing can only be a motherboard-integrated wireless modem. That's the only other way to get net access on a laptop if you don't use an extension card wireless modem or an internal or external POTS modem...or a LAN cable. And you DO understand that "the internet" is really a "place", or a "cloud" that you connect with one way or the other, right? A computer doesn't have the internet any more than a telephone has the phone system.
The best place to look is US, or other non-UK produced maps and guidebooks of London.
So far I have:
MapEasy
StreetWise
On Your Own (or something like that)
Insight
If anyone is in possession of anything else, a scan emailed to me would be much appreciated, or else a web address for the company so that I can search them out.
Thanks in advance
Max Roberts
Man I just hope everyone that was affected gets their power restored as soon as possible and God bless you all.
A STRONG word of advice ... you DON'T have sufficient capacity coming to the city from HERE. Connecticut and New Jersey are NOT shipping power to the city since they're not lit up yet either. WE are all you have (bow before Hydro Quebec, won't ya?) and if people get stupid and turn on air conditioning, lost of fans and washing machines, the city ***WILL*** go dark again if one of these glowing wires melts and falls to the ground. And in the last 15 minutes, they're starting to glow ORANGE ... not good. Of course, once the sun comes up, we won't notice anymore. But it looks like ConEd's lighting up things before they're really ready to ... sure hope all those jet engines around the city are running to take up the slack. :(
Things SHOULD calm down a bit once the NUKES are ready to start spinning turbines, but a nuke has to go COLD before they can be restarted and they won't be back online until this afternoon. PLEASE exercise restraint ... if your lights go out, ours won't, so I don't HAVE to care ... but I do.
And yes, if people get stupid it WILL happen again. The wires here have settled back to a dull red, but they ARE overheated. Push that demand and they WILL fall to the ground. You go dark, we won't. But then again, subtalk ain't exactly the best place to put this word out. But don't be surprised if rolling blackouts taking out whatever trains ARE running occur regularly if folks get stupid and greedy. It's a SCHVITZ day. Saturday night, after the storms will be pretty nice. It's just a matter of suffering 24 hours. After the past two weeks, that should be a SMALL price to pay. Dew point up here is 57 right now, bet yours is down to around 64 or so, not as bad as it could be. Suck in some air and SIT on it as Fonzie woulda said. :)
Also as of 5:30am, the subways, LIRR & Metro North are out until further notice, some lines on NJT will still be out while lines like the Bergen line will be running on a reduced schedule, the PATH is running and the NYCT buses are running with a FREE fare. GCT is basically closed and people slept outside since the Metro North was closed down.
Nearly 10 years ago, when I worked for the PSC, I TOLD them this was going to happen and fortunately NOT to a degree as SEVERE as I predicted, but here we are nonetheless. For my part in telling my superiors at PSC (along with many with DECADES of experience in the agency) we're ALL out of there now. *WE* TOLD YOUSE SO! But here we are. And it'll be whitewashed over just like Osama and Saddam. And forgotten. I'm going to go to bed now - the more I hear about what's ACTUALLY going on out there, the angrier I get ... and when I get angry, I rant, so I'm going to do to bed.
The Northeast grid today operatates in the same way it has for the last 50 years of so. In fact, this blackout looks very similar to '66, when a problem in the Niagra area caused a ripple effect and took out large portions of the distribution system.
ENRON *WAS* the NYISO, which continues to this DAY and was the entitiy that SHUT DOWN NYC. Yep, ENRONJ caused THIS blackout. Al'D'Amato was their LOBBYIST which enacted this into law. Republicans ... aren't you PROUD to be one TODAY? :)
Exactly so! Trying to run 2003 on a 1953 system, with not one blade of one generator built since then! (or sorta, I guess... Gotta Build Plants and Burn Fuel, or else sit in the dark. Your Choice!
Elias
Or better yet Elias, we can use more energy-efficient technologies in our homes, cars, etc. so we don't burn as much fuel
You cannot heat your house by not burning fuel.
You cannot drive your car by not putting fuel in it.
You cannot light your home without turning the switch on.
Yes, *SAVING* energy is important, it ought to be done.
But you can not run the turbines on savings, they will only turn if you burn fuel.
We used to put an outlet every 12' feet or so in a room, and now that is not enough, double duplex boxes ever six feet is still not enough.
So, no matter how much you talk "SAVE" the truth is we demand more.
You can save energy, cut your bills, and do the right thing, but for the people who supply energy, they must make honest projections of what their demands will be 10 and 20 years in the future, and then plan now to meet those needs.
This is not being done.
We have endless wind in North Dakota, we could easily erect wind chargers, and export 5000 KW of power (or how ever you measure the stuff) gut the transmission lines do not exist to export the power, and nobody wants them built where they can be seen, and nobody wants them on their property, and nobody will finanace them until we build the wind chargers to generate the power, and nobody will build the wind chargers until the transmission lines are in place, and nobody will build them until the ....
Elias
Just like the louts on Long Island who fight every proposal for additional generation plants. How can they be so stupid? People must think the juice comes from the North Pole like Santa Claus.
No he isn't. Eminent domain is a perfectly legitimate legal principle in the United States and has always been.
:0)
Ah. You reminded me of the sour green apple trees we scaliwags used to pick. In the fields of the old Central Islip State Hospital, way back when. Put a little salt on `em...um, lip-smaking good bumpy little apples. From orchards long abandoned. Hell, there were some nices blackberry and rasberry patches in those fields as well.
And as us boys and girls frolicked in the woods and hills you could hear the whistles of the nearby LIRR mainline trains as they went through town. Sigh.
The Pinelands Preservation project has identified 100,000 acres in Nassau and Suffolk where asphalt is to be either banned or severely restricted. Let your elected officials know you support it.
Understood. I've attended some hearings about this, and have written a few letters over the years. I do feel sorry for the kids today out there. On Long Island there just ain't many good patches of woods left. When I think of all the paths we use to walk, the places where you could walk for quite a ways without seeing houses or other buildings it gets me sad.
Hell, do the kids ever play hide and seek anymore? Or make forts in the woods? Every guy had to have a fort to go to! Some of `em were pretty good too...
And of course, better coordination of who gets to push power down what we have for now.
This is very true, but also to a degree NOT TRUE.
If the rekeeplicans would have had their way, many more power stations would have been built (by private companies collecting market rates), But it was the Algore party (the ones that *invented* Global Warming) who refuse to build anything (other than more *programs*), and refuse to let others build anything. (Mus'n't harm the spouted grousepecker or whever the latest thing is), AND FOR PITTY SAKE DON'T BUILD A POWER PLANT ANYWHERE NEAR ME! Nimbys.
But if we build power plants then Halliburton, Babcok-Wilcox, and those other cronies will get rich. Well 'duh! Youse guys are sure in the dark, ain't you!
Elias
Went out last night and spotted dead N's at 39th av, 36th av (both partially in the station), on the incline to QP from the tunnel, and a dead 7 just outside QP manhattan bound.
The rear red lights, speedometers (on the r62 7) and front scrollers were lit in the dead of the night... why was this?
The power holds the trippers down, no power, the trippers come up.
Elias
About 1/2 of NYC still remain without power.
Westbound service on the LIRR running every hour on some branches; NYCT buses providing shuttle buses from the Flatbush & Penn Station to Jamaica to contunie your trip. Still limited service on NJT Transit on certain lines, the buses have extra service; a majority of the PABT is still closed and Metro North is still completely out of service.
BTW: An R40S was stuck at Newkirk Ave S/B side, they pulled it out when full service was restored later that night.
: )
Mark
I'll check back in two hours...
That's what happened at our house in Suffolk (not that I was there at the time, of course!) Power came on around 8:00 pm, went back out after 15 minutes, and came back on for good around midnight.
Way to go LIRR!! Much better then at GCT were everyone slept on the sidewalk.
That's great for people in the LIC area, but as I noted in another post the shuttles to Jamaica didn't start leaving from Penn Station until about 2:30.
From http://www.amtrak.com/power.html:
Due to the power outage that affected the Northeast yesterday afternoon, Amtrak service this morning between New York and Boston has been suspended. Amtrak will offer limited service today between New York Penn Station and Washington D.C., and service between New York Penn Station and Albany will operate on a reduced schedule.
Amtrak customers are encouraged to delay travel plans to New York Penn Station until power is fully restored.
Amtrak will continue to monitor the situation and adjust schedules accordingly. Customers are urged to call 1-800-USA-RAIL for more information.
Babylon branch and Rockville Centre station looked dead about the same time, though.
CG
-begin copy-
The MTA Long Island Rail Road is currently operating local train service between Penn Station and Jamaica Station and has restored train service between Penn Station and Port Washington. Hourly train service is being provided east of Jamaica Station on the Babylon, Ronkonkoma, Huntington, Long Beach, Far Rockaway and Hempstead branches and on the Montauk Branch as far as Patchogue. There is train service every two hours on the Port Jefferson Branch.
The LIRR is providing hourly bus service on the West Hempstead branch east of Valley Stream, and on the Oyster Bay Branch east of Mineola.
Bellerose customers must use the Floral Park or Queens Village stations.
-end copy-
I wonder what's wrong at Bellerose.
CG
Or pack onto some articulated bus going to Penn.
I see this as inadequate to meet the needs of Queens and Brooklyn, only next door to Manhattan
No offense to MTA, but why the fuck is it easier to get to NJ than to Queens from the city?while it costs a hell lot less!
On the other hand, Raritan is tougher to get to than anyplace in Queens.
So if you want to complain, be more specific.
Who moves them? Are train operators required to babysit several thousand tons of immovable steel, so they can get them out of the way when the third rails heat up? How can the T/O's get home anyway with the city at a transit standstill?
What if any, IS the policy for a system frozen at 4PM? Who will be there to get hundreds of trains out of the way for a resumption of normal service?
If they must babysit, do they get overtime pay? I guess so, and all the riders get a free ride due to a block, so this puts the TA at a financial loss of a great magnitude.
In the immortal words of Caz Dolowicz: "You're like the captain of a ship. You're supposed to go down with it." :-)
There's no doubt about them getting overtime pay and they may lose fares for a day but it may be less of an impact than we may think.
Mark
Yes, sir! Right away, sir! Whatever you say, sir!
where are my manners.....
PLEASE......
Mark
I am planning to attempt calling Chapter 11 Choo Choo later today but as of now, Monday's trip is still on as scheduled. Either Brian or I will post if there are any changes to this plan. As a reminder, the meeting place is at the route 49 stop at the Glenmont Metro Station in Maryland (OK South Ferry, you can't say you don't know where Glen) at 8:30 AM. Please e-mail me or Brian to let us know if you are coming and if you are coming by bus and you know you will be arriving shortly after 8:30, tell us! We can only wait for you if we know you are coming.
Once again, stay tuned for any changes, they will be posted here if necessary!
Definately coming:
Chapter 11 Choo Choo
WMATAGMOAGH
Operational Engineer II
New Look Terrapin
Aznboy405
Possibly coming:
R30
David Greenberger
Aerotech Shuttle
Has that power station been put to uses other than powering the third rail?
Out here we have photovoltaic cells charging the batteries in some places where the utilities are prohibitive.
Elias
Huh? In south jersey many Railroad RoW's serve as high-tention power easements. My town gets it's power from the lines that run along the Delair Bridge Branch.
BNSF gave Sprint and a few others rights to burry optic fiber along the ROW, part of that apprently allows BNSF to use some of these fibers for their signaling. After that all of the old telegraph poles came down, but with the loss of these poles also came the loss of the RR's ability to recharge the signal batteries. So they bought power from the utilities.
But these utilities had to bring their power in from other areas and could not erect poles on the ROW. MDU had to contract with farmers and whatnot to bring power across country to the ROW for the signals. In places where that was not possible the photovoltaics were used.
BNSF consideres things on their property to be a liability. The instant a station becomes surplus it is GONE! the one in our town was bought by a tree farm and was moved to their property. Some property ie wharehouses, lumber yards and other "possible revenue customers" can stay if someone leases it and occupies it. But generally all stations were removed.
Elias
In this country a vagrant can break into an old disused station, get hurt, sue BNSF or CSX or whoever for providing an attractive nuisance and win $1 million.
Andrew.
Even a few 12-car Super-trains originating from LIC via the old main line would have gone a long way towards helping out the general public.
Especially considering the time of the blackout, there were probably electrics stranded throughout the system, blocking service on any but the all-diesel lines, which not is just East-Williston to Oyster Bay, and east of Huntington, Ronkonkoma and Babylon.
And remember all those crossing gates out of service. There were not enough police to cover a fraction of the dangerous intersection with dark traffic lights and the operable gates.
Usually when there is a local blackout, the police cover every major intersection in the affected area. Last night was just like "Little House on the Prairie"--no technology whatsoever, Broncos, Mustangs and Explorers roving the range at will.
So it is not so easy.
Have you ever heard of "flagging" a crossing. Also, as I have posted before, many grade crossings have a battery backup to maintain the track circut and possibly raise/lower the gates...I am not sure if the LIRR is so equipped, but it is a possibility.
Doing what every other married pair in Queens does during a blackout.
"2" trains, not TWO trains!
How do you keep from plowing into an M3?
The LIAR like every rail system that operates with cab signals without fixed wayside signals have a "super clear" indication that allow trains to proceed to the next interlocking prepared to stop at a speed not greater than 60mph. In the absence of all signals, temporary block stations could be set up with train orders manually hooped up.
That's probably correct. Except it just begs my question, why did it take over ten hours to get the first shuttle buses to Penn?
(If these weren't NYCT buses, then ignore everything I've said.)
think of the people who walked or are still in progress to get home
In 1965 I was in the Church Avenue IND station.
In 1977 I lived on Long Island but worked downtown when the lights went out.
In 2003 I neither lived nor worked in the city, so the blackout chased me out to Long Island. I found out about when I pulled into the parking lot at the Stop & Shop and my daughter called me to tell me the computers were acting weird, then the line went dead. When I pulled out and saw the traffic lights out, I figured what had happend, I just hadn't figured how much of it.
In 77 I was out on a bike ride and finished the ride home in the dark.
In 03 I was working at the world's biggest store, walked home from Herald Sq to Main and Roosevelt, didn't sleep a wink with the heat, called the world's biggest store hot line at 7AM and was informed that Herald Sq would be open. I caught 3 busses to midtown, saw the power out and the world's biggest store closed, took the 3 busses back home and wrote this account.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yikes, that was a haul. How long did it take?
Left Herald Sq at 4:30PM
Reached LIC at 6PM
Woodside at 7PM
Corona 8PM
Flushing 9PM
I was going to cut through the park but it was quite dark by then and it wouldn't be prudent to quote GHWB.
My pace slowed after Woodside. Today my hip is a bit sore and a toe blistered but that's about it. Most of my discomfort is from a night w/o sleep and that can be fixed tonite. I couldn't have done it if I didn't know the route, but my homing instincts are strong.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Reached LIC at 6PM
Woodside at 7PM
Corona 8PM
Flushing 9PM
Reads like an old timetable for the Flushing & North Side RR. Do you publish your freight rates? :)
Reads like an old timetable for the Flushing & North Side RR.
If the LIRR operated that route today, it'd probably take longer :)
Adam
Robert
Which one would you rather be stuck on during a power outage?
Government assurances aside, until we know the definite cause, nothing can be ruled out. There is always the possibility of sabotage by an insider.
The really unfortunate thing is that either answer is not a good one.
If it was a terrorist act, it means a technically knowledgeable someone (or several someones) was able to penetrate the system.
Ot it wasn't, it means that we learned nothing and were lied to after the '65 blackout which occurred in almost exactly the same way. In '65 we were told it was a result of generators in adjacent parts of the failing grid trying to make up the difference and failing in turn in a domino effect. In '03 we are essentially being told the same thing.
But after the '65 blackout we were told that the system was being reconfigured so that, if a similar situation occured, the failing system would be cut loose, isolating the failure. Now 37 years later, that's not what happened. If a known weak point wasn't resolved in that period of time, who needs terrorists to bring down a big section of the country?
- Terrorism
- Canadian retribution for Iraq war
- Alien attack
- Republican conspiracy to crush environmentalists blocking more new nuclear/fossil fuel powered plants.
- Computer worm
- Con-Ed conspiracy to gain permission to raise rates dramatically.
And there has been a consistent rage that parts of Manhattan got power first, and that mostly white SI and the outer suburbs got power earlier than their minority-laden Queens/Brooklyn neighbors. Flushed with anger and a growing fear that I may have to throw out hundreds of dollars of frozen food, I started to believe them.
The political consequences for the past 24 hours will be reverberating for years.
The worst power failure I ever experienced was Hurricane Gloria in 1985, no power for 5 days. I had just bought and stocked a shiny new freezer. It stayed good for 3 days of not opening the door. That day I rushed to Queens for some bags of dry ice, which saved the day. When I reopened the freezer, everything was fine.
Whoa! I'd have to go to the gym every night for a week to work that off! Maybe two weeks.
Kitchen sounds safe, but you have to be aware that even using a conventional stove without a hood can be dangerous.
Several years ago my wife wanted a commercial stove (a real commercial stove, not a consuemr stove made to look like one) and could have gotten a good one at a decent price, but it could have cancelled our homeowner's insurance.
We got one of those. Oh Yeah... That's right, We got a commercial kitchen too, with hired cooks to prove it.
: ) Elias
Assumption Abbey is in beautiful Richardton, North Dakota.
How many monks.... depends on how you count them.
We have about 70 burried in our cemetary.
We have about 60 listed in our ordo.
of these about 35 live at home, 12 are assigned to our daughter house in Bogota Colombia, and the others are pastors, teachers, professors, chaplains and students on varrious assignments.
We have a few guest rooms, a small guest house, and a larger guest house that used to be a college dorm which can house about 96 visitors. Our kitchen is able to prepare meals for about 150 with out breaking a sweat over it, but most of the time they figure on serving about 30.
To keep it somewhat on topic, I do have a model train layout in what used to be a classroom above the library. I haven't been up there in several weeks, for at the moment it is far too hot. Besides, I mostly sit at the computer these days.
Elias
Tell the Abbott to fix that...
Sorry, couldn't resist. :)
Tell the Abbott to fix that...
*I* am the webmaster : )
As a matter of fact did you see my picture at the bottom of the home page? Did you notice that I was standing in the cab or the arnine at Branford for that picture? : )
The pictures of my railroad is on a different website.
Elias
LIPA claims on-island base capacity of 4800 MW. With usual off-island supply this would be 5300 MW. They also claim they could squeeze out another 200 MW by starting all the little generator and giving the hamsters on the wheels extra feed.
Last summer extreme peak demand was 5059 MW. They also got the disputed Cross Island Cable running, and now say they are getting 100 MW from CT, and the line could do 330.
So you do the math. LI is not that dependent on outside power, barring an internal disaster. If they have to do a rolling blackout of an hour a pop, so be it.
But the general issue is a sort of anti-growth environmentalism.
Have you ever seen a pollution map of Long Island Sound? CT has major cities on the sound, with pollution run-off, major industries, etc. LI doesn't have much--this is mainly because it is residential and the water flows mostly don't go in that direction anyway.
Plus look at the recreational boating on the sound from both sides--a buried electric cable is going to bother fish a fraction as much as that?
Sometimes environmentalists stop stuff just because they can. It's an ignorant attitude that damages the cause.
"Have you ever seen a pollution map of Long Island Sound? CT has major cities on the sound, with pollution run-off, major industries, etc. LI doesn't have much--this is mainly because it is residential and the water flows mostly don't go in that direction anyway. "
Well, LI did have Bethpage and the Calverton airfield, and the byproducts of the Apollo, A-6 and F-14 production programs. Those are near the water. Bethpage is getting a new Air Force contract.
But Connecticut does have more of that - though a lot has been shuttered.
"Plus look at the recreational boating on the sound from both sides--a buried electric cable is going to bother fish a fraction as much as that? "
You're dead-on there, Paul.
"Sometimes environmentalists stop stuff just because they can. It's an ignorant attitude that damages the cause."
Shoreham is a prime example of that.
Bethpage is not near the water.
That's the cause.
It's basically only power generation that's been deregulated. Power transmission remains a regulated monopoly, and problems in the transmission grid seem to be what causes most major blackouts.
As far as the airline industry is concerned, do not forget that 9/11 was a huge blow, one whose effects probably will continue for many years.
(It's basically only power generation that's been deregulated. Power transmission remains a regulated monopoly, and problems in the transmission grid seem to be what causes most major blackouts.)
This is what surprised me. It wasn't that hot, and it wasn't anywhere near a power consumption record. That's why I thought it had to be terrorism. This failure is quite a shock. They said the WTC could take a hit from a 747, but they were only half right. They said after 1965 that the power grid was designed to prevent a cascading blackout, and they were wrong.
Getting back to the peak capacity problem, what Jersey Mike is proposing is in effect taxing everyone including the poor (through higher guarnateed rates) to build as much electric capacity as is necessary to satisfy those who waste power at the moment of peak demand.
There is an alternative, though it too would cost money. Redo all the meters, and create an intranet through the power system (possible, I'm told), to permit variable pricing by time of day. The price would be much higher at peak times, much lower at other times, and when a crisis approaches lights would flash and bells would ring warning people to shut things off or pay through the nose. The effects:
1) Solar becomes cost effective, because it generates at peak when the price would be higher. Now the cost of solar is compared with the average cost of power, including the middle of the night when much of it comes from Niagara Falls.
2) People acquire and design appliances to run automatically in the middle of the night. Refrigerators could be designed to create and "save" cold in the night -- by freezing ice or something more high tech -- and use it in the day. Other appliances could turn on and off on timers.
3) Electric items that use lots of power when off would become less popular.
There isn't enough solar available to make a big difference, because you can't get enough sunlight at the earth's surface at mid-day to convert. That's not a function of cost; it's an absolute physical limitation. If I recall correctly, it's around 1 kw per square meter.
I suppose you could cover several thousand acres of off-shore ocean with light collection systems - then you might have something. But who's going to let you do that?
Speculative trading and manipulation of the market by the greedy is the "current" theory that's being looked at. We might WELL have been ENRONED here. :(
Well, maybe not for a day or so.
Oh Yea... The whole thing is dead.
But Busses still take money if you dont have a card.
Elias
O, you mean "Legacy Exchange Media" (LEMs).
Manhattan must've looked as dark as rural Vermont. Very strange indeed (although I hope not to see this again anytime soon again).
Mark
p.s.--if you're wondering what three areas...Baltimore, DC & Pittsburgh
That's correct. It was quite a sight.
And watch how bright Mars in a couple of nights once the moon comes up later and doesn't outshine it. Mars is at its closest approach to earth since the Neanderthal era.
Obligatory transit comment: why would HG Wells' octopodian Martians get around using giant tripods? Impractical, at best.
www.forgotten-ny.com
: 0 Elias
:-P
I thought the blackout was just to the Northeast, parts of the Midwest and Canada? Maybe we're all wrong...
Look what happened with the outage...there was one death attributed to it. Hundreds of thousands of people had to walk home or sleep outside in the city.
And that's the best we could do. Many of our dependencies were run by electricity and we obviously couldn't use them. I think the city accommodated everyone's needs. Besides, I was watching the news yesterday and they outlined that the hotel services tourists couldn't access were very kind during and afterwards.
Millions spent the night without A/C or PC's or TV's etc and came out fine on a very hot Summer day.
PC's and TV's are needed? I got through the blackout with just batteries and my portable CD player with radio. I didn't need those things. As far as I know, a PC is luxury for most home users, considering you don't use it for work. A/C is different, though. It's mostly a luxury except for the elderly who need it.
This outage can be filed under "unanounced emergency preparedness exercise" and our great country came out with an A+.
I think you're being overcritical. If you watched the news, you'll learn how federal response teams were ready, assuming it was terrorist attack. Many 911 calls were responded to and the police, fire and EMS services did all they could.
Spoken like someone who enjoys the heat. A/C in hot, humid weather is not a luxury. It's a necessity. More so than PC's and TV's and even lights. All I wanted on Thursday night was my A/C. I had candles to illuminate my house and a battery-operated radio to remain in contact with the outside world.
I'll still maintain that it's a necessity for the elderly and now I'll include young children and people in poor health. Otherwise, you'll be fine with constant hydration.
"Ladyfingers they taste just like lady fingers"
No, but it certainly makes you a lot more comfortable.
In very hot weather, staying indoors, drinking a lot of fluids and not doing a lot of strenuous work (esp. on ozone alert days) is important. Children, the elderly and people who are ill mustbe extra careful. A/C can be very helpful to them.
I don't know about that - I was unable to sleep without it on - I even tried to go to sleep outside on my porch - didn't help - seems I need to be really cool in order to sleep and even the outside air wasn't helping....
I'm exactly the same way. 95 degrees during the day is far more tolerable than 80 degrees at night. No idea why.
I had no problem with hot water though ..
Haven't seen any of those lately. They may still exist in specialized settings, but they're not at all common.
Oh man, that's like finding out Santa Claus doesn't exist. This is the first time I ever heard you "doubt" the existence of 76th Street.
http://www.nycrail.com/stations/ind/76th_st.htm
But one thing we CAN draw from all this - they did INTEND to build it.
Well, they intended to build it so while the station itself isn't actually there the area was set aside to turned into a station. Or as the board at Euclid Tower says "PROPOSED".
Come to think of it, it would fit in the trunk of a Chrysler 300...
I believe that refrigerator was in the cellar since the 1940's or 50's...
Too bad it was too big for eBay ;-)
Recreational vehicles commonly have propane-powered refrigerators.
When it's cold (below freezing), within 12 hours of the turnoff of electricity, people with baseboard heating systems will have frozen pipes, that when thawed would gush water. The lead pipes will also freeze and gush when thawed. Believe me, I have seen homes in which the pipes froze.
We better thank the higher powers that be that this happened in August and not January.
That can be prevented by letting the water run slowly from all of the faucets, then shutting it off at the main supply valve. Of course, people who aren't home at the time will be in a pickle.
I was not uncomfortable at all and slept well. The only problem was getting out of the back seat, because it was cold. My windshield must have had six inches of solid ice due to my exhaled breath. I had to wait until the sun was above the mountain and turn the car (blindly) so the windshied faced the sun and the sunlight melted the ice.
But consider what happened because of it.
For comparison - how long after power was restored in 1965 and 1977 was subway service restored in those years?
Sort of on topic, it is sort of a train on tracks:
Cars sit stopped about three-quarters of the way up the first hill of the Magnum XL200 ride at Cedar Point Amusement Park in Sandusky, Ohio.
(from this link: http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/14/power.outage/index.html)
#3 West End Jeff
I'm sorry, is it too early to laugh at the situation?
You do? 9/11 jokes were circulating literally before the dust settled.
Making fun of AIDS: OK
Making fun of Kenny: Not OK (actually it's OK again now)
Maybe that's why they sent the diesel to rescue them after dark ;-)
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Doors AND Window !! I assume they were trying to get some air - here's another view...
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
That's a hella HIGH altitude to even THINK of evacuating.
Not to mention it's prime target for SUN.
You might be reminded in May 2004. Remember the stories about what (allegedly) happened nine months after the 1965 blackout.
Dark, nothing else to do, nine months later.......you'll figure it out.
Click Here to hear Dan Ingram that afternoon. The fact that it took so long for the power to go that day emphasizes the rapidity of what took place yesterday.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Click Here to hear Dan Ingram that afternoon. The fact that it took so long for the power to go that day emphasizes the rapidity of what took place yesterday.
Tony
I heard last night that the power went out just about the time of the shift change at the NYPD. If this is true (I don't know for sure), it undoubtedly was good timing, as it was possible to keep the day shift cops on duty and therefore have double coverage right from the start.
While it indeed looks as if things generally were peaceful, there were some ugly scenes on 32nd Street just east of Penn Station as people tried crushing onto city buses. Had there not been at least 20 cops and police academy cadets arriving on the scene, there could have been an out-and-out riot.
Well the conventional explanation was that the 1977 blackout occurred during hot summer weather, which made people more prone to violent behavoir than did the colder November weather at the time of the 1965 blackout. Needless to say, the lack of looting during yesterday's blackout works havoc with that theory.
The pessimist in me points out that looting is a crime of opportunity. The 1977 blackout happened after the sun had gone down. In 2003, NYPD had 4 hours to prepare for any potential looting once darkness fell.
The cynic in me says I'm going to hurl if I hear one more self-congratulatory comment about how New Yorkers came together and handled the situation so well...
CG
It was probably because of a combination of factors that there was no looting. A better sense of community AND a stronger police response, plus other factors too.
What about Bloomy's comment "... tradgically New Yorkers have to come together"
I hear you there. Every time there is a blizzard, or sometimes even when it rains, you hear these comments about how New Yorkers are tough, resilliant, etc., generally coming from Manhattan. The comments make it seem like New York is such a tough place to live, and only the strong survive. It's actually a pretty easy place to live, aside from the quality of the schools. New York is really only hard on children.
Maybe this should of been posted in BusTalk, but this just shows that the no-photo policy is like MTA systemwide, and that they are insane about it.
Did this mean the catenary wires never lost power yesterday and today? or am I missing a link?
So yeah... The trainsets had power but couldn't find a green signal.
Elias
Signals would not be a problem, but the switches would be. In complex interlockings the machines are rarely dual control, so you'd need a bunch of maintainers out there with cranks to throw the points.
In the absence of signals the trains can be run via the manual block system.
You mean New Haven.
Blackout, no commercial power, no electric trains, 25nz or not.
because they are at 25hz their system is independent until this day.
PRR never generated it's own power, they always bought it from the electric companies.
The only thing Amtrak did was install frequency changers in all their substations, as the utility companies stopped generating 25hz current in the 1970's.
New York subways resumed limited service around 8 p.m., according to the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.
Er, I know PATH is sort of subway-ish, but still ...
Elias
There must be a lot of workers (and management) putting in a lot of good work out there.
The MTA is EXTENSIVE, suffering from
-scattered outages
-flooded stations
-displaced equipment
Though I see the LIRR/MNR commuter system will be back in line MUCH FASTER to the benefit of the very few.
The subway, with all the diversions on a typical weekend, I'll hold till monday to be regular service pattern
2) PATH has more modern and uniform physical plant than the TA does (for example, the IRT has/had some 25 cycle signal equipment which gets very ornery in the face of power problems).
3) Being an FRA railroad, PATH can (and in fact, does expect/trust its crews to) operate in the face of a complete signal system failure, though at reduced headways. In the past, they've lost air (and thus, all trip arms came up) in a major chunk of the above-ground system, and they instructed crews to tie down the arms and proceed using visual observation of preceding trains. In a case like this, I expect the TA would tell all crews to stop and stay and would spend hours deciding what to do.
Wouldn't FRA oversight make PATH more likely to be a stickler for safety rules?
Yes, but it also means that there is a culture which assumes that their engineers are capable of rational independent thought.
While I'm sure that the same (rational independent thought) could be said of the TA's crews, it seems that the management philosophy is to assume the worst of the crews and have all direction come from central coordination (control center). So on PATH you get instructions from control to tie the trip arms down and to proceed with caution and maintain positive observation of switch alignments and the preceding train. On the TA, you'd be told to stop and stay and wait for a signal maintainer and a bunch of other folks to show up and go "yup, it's broke".
There are probably merits to both management systems, but in the TA system when some poor T/O gets told to do something and questions it, he gets told to do it anyway and _still_ gets hung out to dry for following orders. Can't have it both ways...
Thanks for the interesting observations. It doesn't sound as if anything will change anytime soon, as the TA's attitude seems deeply ingrained in its culture.
However, please note:
1) PATH has 13 route miles of track compared to NYC's 240. PATH has 13 stations compared to NYC's 468. PATH has a more stable source of funding that NYCTA does.
2) PATH has a much smaller number of crews. Perhaps they can be more selective about whom they hire. NYCT runs 600 trains per day. It doesn't take many crew members/first-line supervisors with below-average skills and judgment to force the TA to be more restrictive on everybody. You want to take a chance with 3,000 people on a train?
If you tie down the trip arms, then you have to let the geniuses and the morons make decisions alike. I'm not saying that I like the TA's management style; I'm saying you and Selkirk have been too simple-minded about this issue.
Naturally depends on the logistics of digging out stalled trains / crew availability / tunnel and track searches etc . Are they using what we in UK call "Thunderbirds" (rescue diesel locos) - or awaiting resumption of electric traction power then "digging out" the fleet.
Beats Londons records of tube shut downs which fortuitously was on a Sunday morning with few trains and fewer passengers.! Disruption on the sale of the 1987 Hurricane which took 4 days for full service resumption on Network Southeast.One can really sympathise with the workers and manngement. Where do you start ?
Basically, I sat around in case of an emergency that required contacting the various construction managers at home, but none occured. There was one other person on my floor at 2 Broadway, one reason why I had to go in.
As after 9/11, I wish I could have been more helpful, but there is only so much use for a budget analyst at a time like this.
Peace
David
Robert
They gave my C/R permission to go home Friday morning, they gave permission for the E crew there to leave at Friday 5pm , they refused to authorized me to leave my train at that time. I cleared at 11 something PM. Something like 30 hours after my clearing time.
I stunk, I was filthy, hungry, dehydrated, my feet were all cut up and even my ass hurts.
You did a hell of a job. I assume you will get a nice chunk of overtime money, or compensatory time off, and you will have earned it in spades.
I thank you for your service. Your dedication at a time of high need is commendable. A lot of people owe their safety to you. Thank you.
My understanding is that the computers will not allow for any employee to be paid past 16 hours. Anyone working over that will get a single day off. Hopefully either the computer thing I had heard was incorrect or the crew office will somehow compensate him in another form.
16 hours does not apply to emergency situations. Someone likely did drop the ball as there was alot of things mishandled. I was a few blocks from the emergency command center and it would have been nice to get some fresh batteries (flashlight and radio) and some water especially as I asked 5 times and was told help was coming. I spent about 30 to get some water, soda, 2 cans of Chunky soup and trail mix. With phones down I could not charge or use an ATM.
By the way, where were you stuck?
I still think I should get a code 11 for Friday. It makes no sense that if I demanded to leave like some of the others I would have gotten the next day off but since I did not I lose the time. The money is not such a big deal.
I hate to harp on this but they should have brought us something to drink as they zipped up and down in the van.
What hurt was they told me relief was at hand Friday morning, I called home, then the phones went out again! The other killer was that without telephone authorization they would not let us charge anything at any of the restuarants. There is only so much trail mix and cold soup you can stomach.
You're not harping bro. Bloomy gave his workers soda and Powerbars after the power went out. Its not too much to ask an employer to provide for the employees that they won't let go home.
Right. But I was told a while ago by someone that had this problem, that it was a programming limitation. And they DID NOT give her the follow day off. However they paid her some time via a Late Clear that she didn't actually work.
Just don't spend it all in one place, mmmkay?
Friday, showed up for work (got really lucky, got back to back buses on the way to work) and was sent to Grand Av to eventually watch a V train. But originally, I was sent to watch another train that already had relief so I started walking with another AM T/O south of Grand Av (which had station lighting at about 7 am) in the tunnel to see if there was another crew which needed relief. Kept walking and noticed that there weren't any lit signals or anything, so just on reflex I shined the flashlight on the wall to look for a dark signal and saw the words "ELMHURST AV" instead. Station was pitch black.
It was quite a surreal experience to be standing on the Queens Blvd express tracks in the middle of Elmhurst Av during the AM rush hour.....without even a peep. Never thought that would ever happen. Anyway, spent 16 hours on duty.
What I thought was quite strange was that when I was sitting outside on Queens Blvd at Continental, all of the express buses were passing by a normal schedule. And almost every single bus to Manhattan was either ¼ to ½ full, with a couple others with almost no seats left. I was thinking "where in the hell are these people going?" I was quite surprised at the amount of people commuting into the city in the middle of a blackout. Wasn't too surprised that a morning QM21 express bus which normally runs "dark" to Rosedale from the city was packed like a 4 lb. sausage in a 2 lb. casing instead.
And from what were the crews being relieved?
Do you mean the crews had to physically stay WITH the train?
They were expected to, yes.
Here I got the impression that EVERYONE left the system....
But then I got to wondering HOW they would advance the
trains if/when power got juiced back into the rails...
I sense some of you CREW members must have felt what we
felt some weeks ago riding 34 hours straight...
Except crew members didn't have A/C for the most part.
Sorry to hear you need a new motor - I figured the TA's whackadoodle extra boards would catch up to ya sooner or later and MARTZ wouldn't cover the hours. :(
But HEY! SOMEBODY'S gotta buy SOMETHING ... economy depends on it, or where else would those tax-free dividends come from for those shareholders of Daimler-Benz? My sympathies all around, I'm USED to working 28 hour days ... like this one, fifth time this month.
The MTA Long Island Rail Road is currently operating local train service between Penn Station and Jamaica Station and has restored train service between Penn Station and Port Washington. Hourly train service is being provided east of Jamaica Station on the Babylon, Ronkonkoma, Huntington, Long Beach, Far Rockaway and Hempstead branches and on the Montauk Branch as far as Patchogue. There is train service every two hours on the Port Jefferson Branch.
The LIRR is providing hourly bus service on the West Hempstead branch east of Valley Stream, and on the Oyster Bay Branch east of Mineola.
Bellerose customers must use the Floral Park or Queens Village stations.
Bus service is being provided east of Ronkonkoma and east of Patchogue with the exception of:
The 4:25 PM train operating from Jamaica to Montauk, making all stops from Speonk east.
The 6:30 PM train operating from Jamaica to Montauk, making all stops from Bay Shore east.
Train service is not currently operating between Flatbush Avenue, Brooklyn and Jamaica.
LIRR service to Shea for Mets baseball:
The LIRR will make Shea Stadium stops on both east- and westbound trains that are operating hourly on the Port Washington Branch west of Woodside beginning in the 5 o'clock hour for the Mets game that is scheduled to start at 7:10 PM tonight.
MTA Metro-North Railroad
Service Alert
8/15/2003
As of 6 PM Con-Edison has provided electrical service to Grand Central Terminal.
This will enable Metro-North to provide limited train service for the rest of Friday evening.
Customers should be advised that they may have to wait up to two hours for a train.
We appreciate your patience during this region-wide power outage.
Due to lingering power problems, there is no NYC Transit Subway service at this time system-wide. All scheduled weekend construction work has been canceled.
NYC Transit Bus service is running on every route with particular emphasis placed on 63 priority routes in each borough serving major corridors. In addition, NYC Transit is operating two shuttles between Jamaica, Queens and Penn Station. Those shuttles are Sutphin Boulevard/Jamaica Station to Penn Station and Parsons-Archer to Penn Station.
Does anybody know what routes these 63 priority routes are?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
not to add all the flooding
I'm told (by a former PATH signal maintainer) that these have large coils of copper wire in them.
There doesn't seem to be any pattern to where PATH uses single insulated joints vs. double ones.
They don't always sit between the rails, there are places where they're off to the side of the tracks.
They're used on AC systems too, but the AC ones are a lot smaller, partly because of the lower currents involved with AC - a Silverliner II/III car at full power only draws about 35 amps from the catenary, an LIRR M-1 draws more like a thousand....
USF RANKED HIGH FOR TRANSPORTATION STUDIES
In a national survey conducted by The Urban Transportation Monitor, USF ranked sixth among
universities in the U.S. for graduate study focused on transit operations and planning. Other universities listed include Northwestern University, University of California, Berkeley, and Massachusetts Institute of Technology. USF also ranked ninth among U.S. universities for graduate study with an emphasis on transportation planning. Others included Texas A&M University, University of Pennsylvania and Rutgers University. The results were published in the June 27 issue of the newsletter.
The USMA has a focus on ships and I think one of the Texas schools with bus planning. Most subways and rail are not as flexible as NYC. After placement most systems do not face big choice for rail. Think Marta as an extreme, you add a station at either end and all the real work is working it into the bus net. No choices like how to leave CI and then express or local? BWAY, 6th ave or 8th then
Bronx, Manhattan or Queens.
I did a year in that program 20+ years ago. And now I work very closely with the faculty who teach in it, and do research.
And we have at least one current subtalker who is a student in that program now.
Too bad. Of course, some people would be willing to pay admission and eat popcorn if this were on stage and they were dressed in leotards.
on a lighter note, my bus went FASTER because of no traffic light, the only holdup was a line of cars for a gas station and then finally when it got to an intersection where a light was reset.
I'll go to work by mistake more often if the bus goes that fast each day
Too bad it was broken up. Fights between chix often have interesting shirts-torn-off possibilities.
And since one of the battlin' chix was mystical, we know who'd be most eager to pay.
(For those of you who don't take my reference, Kitana Baker
is the brunette in the Miller Light catfight commercials)
Somebody call WWE!!!
Michigan is still in poor shape.
A few days after the Brooklyn Bridge opened, the pedestrian walk was jammed, and a panic lead to several people being crushed to death. I almost saw a repeat yesterday. Too many people were trying to use the walkway from both directions. People had to jump down to the roadway to keep from being crushed. My wife got 1/3 the way across, then had to retreat back to Manhatan because of the crowds pushing the other way.
On the roadway, pedestrians mixed with private cars (with only one person in them) in both directions. The cars crawled, the FDR was backed up form miles. I was walking between cars on the outbound roadway. With no traffic lights in Manhattan, the police didn't shut down traffic into Manhattan until 6:00 p.m.! I know, I was there!
In Downtown Brooklyn, there were so many private cars on the street that the buses -- which could have evacutated tens of thousands -- didn't move. Neither did emergency vehicles! Those few thousand SOBs in their SOV FUVs put hundreds of thousands of us at risk.
An any emergency, the inbound roadways to Manhattan should be shut down immediately. They should be reserved for pedestrians walking outbound. Private cars should be kept away, and major roads like Flatbush Avenue and Queens Blvd should be bus and emergency vehicles only.
At risk of what?
An any emergency, the inbound roadways to Manhattan should be shut down immediately. They should be reserved for pedestrians walking outbound. Private cars should be kept away, and major roads like Flatbush Avenue and Queens Blvd should be bus and emergency vehicles only.
What about people who live in Manhattan or have valid reasons to get into Manhattan? Walk? Fine. What about elderly and disabled people who trying to get into Manhattan?
It's interesting to note that all the bridges and tunnels into Manhattan were closed down very quickly after AA587 crashed in the Rockways in November 2001. And that was for an incident that otherwise would have had little or no impact on traffic into and out of Manhattan. Yet yesterday it took over 90 minutes to close the inbound roadways? Makes no sense at all.
They obviously intended to shut it down, because they did it 90 minutes after the fact. They just reacted slowly.
Perhaps what is required is volunteers with police barriers with signs attached "emergency no private motor vehicles" who could run out and shut down the roads right after an incident.
(At risk of what?)
As I said, NO emergency vehicles could move. If Osama's boys had taken the opportunity to lauch a secondary attack that required a response, we'd have been toast. And lets say someone had been injured up on the walkway? The ambulance would have arrived the next day.
I'll say it again -- outbound lanes, keep the people off, direct them right to the highway. Inbound lanes -- people out, emergency vehicles in.
Anyone know of any sites with subway themes? (I haven't found any yet *frown*)
I know this was discussed a couple of years ago, but I haven't seen anything recently.
Thanks,
Howard
Amtrak will operate Federal service between Washington, D.C. and Boston tonight, and will operate on a normal weekend schedule starting tomorrow morning (August 16, 2003).
I'll be on Train 190 tomorrow to salvage what I can of my Boston trip.
Don't have AIM, eh? Download it free here at www.aim.com
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
With that exposure time, the city, even without the lights, looks normal. By that I mean it has that glow around it as if it were still lit.
On my walk from work at Federal Plaza to my friends' home near Columbia U at 119th and Amsterdam, Thursday Aug 14th, 5 to 8 p.m. I saw many people taking photos and videos with cameras and camcorders.
History in the making.
That crossover will be used by the Museum Train on the MOD trip next Saturday.
The train has to reverse direction somewhere (They are going southbound from Jamaica). They can't do it north of 57th St because it might screw up the regular N, R, and W trains.
Now, time for reading and catch-up...
Be more polite ... instead, say "Tomorrow is Soylent Green day."
2. Read the official advisory at the MTA's website. It explains all construction work is cancelled.
2. They should be cancelled.
Some blackout related. A 7 putin stuck on the yard lead, at Main St and the "lost" #7, one Control didn't even know was out there.
#3 West End Jeff
Toad away ... toad away ... toad away ... toad away ... where do you go when you're toad away? :)
CAN NOT WAIT to buy his book. BTW, thanks to FOX for all the exposure.
Peace,
ANDEE
Fair and balanced? Last Martin L. King Jr. day he could've taken the time to write an article about how conservatism has help minorities, but NOOOOOOO! He had to write some tirade about rapper Enimen and his racist music (Source: NY Daily News column, 1/20/03). Fine but show some class on an important holiday.
As for the subways, he makes a lot of money so he probably doesn't really ride the subway that mucg and see how much the performance has improved in the past 20 years, and I a vocal person to say on positive as well as negative things too.
Maybe if he'd put his big mouth to good use promoting improvement of the transit system instead of just whining he'd see some positive changes. Of course, that's dreaming, since he probably hides in an "executive sedan" to keep from encountering the real world.
As for California, I am a native San Franciscan, as were my parents. To this day, it amazes me how people move to CA and try to convince the world they're so much better off they are. Nonsense. I'm appalled at how The Republic today bears almost no resemblence to the place I came from. It wasn't necessarily paradise back there before the 1960s, but all the dreck that has relocated there since 1966 has replaced common sense with Political Correctness. It's the carpet baggers who moved there who've elevated crap like NIMBYism and Political Correctness to an incredible level of absurdity. "We care about the environment, but don't dare mess with our freeways or SUVs. Don't dare build expensive mass transit networks because we need that money to pay for health care for illegal imigrants." Or, "Don't dare make people say the Pledge of Allegiance because it contains the offensive word, 'God', but at the same time, every Christian and Jew must graciously permit every other religion's icons and beliefs to push theirs aside."
As for "my junior senator", since I live in the District of Columbia, I have no voting representation in Congress at all. There's a damn good reason why we have "Taxation Without Representation" on our license plates, and if it were up to O'Reilly and his groupies, we would be forced back to the days before home rule and not even be allowed to vote for President. He's been a staunch supporter of the morons in Congress who live to undermine the District's elected city council every turn they get. So, my friend, love him all you want, but don't get my dander up about him. Love you much...meeeeeeeeean it!
I would think that having all 100 Senators and all the House Representatives living and working in D.C., regardless of their party affiliation would mean you're better represented by anyone in any of the states!! I mean, one would have to think of their own home and work environment when voting on any issue!!!
"Was" may be the key word in that sentence. If he last rode the subway, at least on any sort of regular basis, in the 1970's or early 1980's, or even for that matter in the high-crime early 1990's, it's not hard to understand why he'd have such a negative view of the system. While he certainly would have heard that conditions are much better today, without actual riding experience it might be hard for the message to sink in.
Now, if he's ridden the subways more recently, his viewpoint makes no sense. I'd really be interesting in knowing when he last rode it.
Upon graduating from Marist College in Poughkeepsie, New York with a degree in History, he taught high
school for two years in Miami, Florida. O'Reilly returned to school to pursue a Masters in Broadcast
Journalism from Boston University.
After receiving his Master's degree, O'Reilly began his television news career in Scranton, Pennsylvania,
followed by stops in Dallas, Denver, Portland, Oregon, Hartford, and Boston. In 1980, he anchored his own
program on WCBS-TV in New York and later became a CBS News correspondent covering the wars in El
Salvador and the Falkland Islands, among other assignments.
In 1986, Bill O'Reilly joined ABC News as a correspondent on The World News Tonight. During his three
year tenure, he appeared on the show more than one hundred times, and received two Emmy Awards and
two National Headliner Awards for excellence in reporting.
O'Reilly's career changed in 1989 when he joined the nationally syndicated Inside Edition as senior
correspondent and backup anchor. Within three weeks, he took over the anchor chair from David Frost.
During his six years at Inside Edition, the show was one of the highest-rated "infotainment" programs in
America.
In 1995, O'Reilly left to enroll in the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University where he
received a Master's Degree in Public Administration. Upon leaving Harvard, Roger Ailes, chairman and CEO
of the then startup FOX News Channel, hired O'Reilly to anchor The O'Reilly Factor.
Bill O'Reilly continues to live on Long Island where his best friends are guys with whom he attended first
grade.
Especially when you consider that MSNBC and CNN are Bush cheerleaders and there's a vast "right wing conspiracy" emerging against BUSH. As my wife said on TV years ago, "republicans eat their young." They did in daddy too because he wasn't sufficiently pure of essence and that gave us Clinton. You'd think the dogmatics woulda learned something but they're too busy pushing Ahnold to notice. I love a sideshow, let's go ride that little choochoo out on the midway until the smoke clears. Heh.
Again we're veering off the track here with slimy prognosticating. For the record, it's "America". And to make such a statement you must not have much faith in the general population as a whole. You also have no idea of the strength of our unique capitalist/populist democratic republic. In one sense it's still true that the "business of America IS business". I can live with that. What a genius concept! To use the natural greed of humanity to ensure the general freedom of humanity is something that most other nations haven't the cojones or the foresight to implement. If you don't believe that, well...places like China and India eagerly await your arrival as a new immigrant. Go forth and prosper...
"toad", "idiot", "douche"
It's like school on Sundays...
Boy oh boy is he an idiot. Not only is the subway not falling apart, but the city has been run by a Republican Mayor and Governor for years. You'd think he'd be taking credit for his side, although the turnaround was already up and running under Cuomo/Koch.
History shows that the biggest threat to the infrastucture is a combination of populist opposition to fare/fee increases, union pensions, and Republican debts. We didn't have any of them for 20 years, but we have all three now. "Liberals" have nothing to do with it.
It was called the Queens-Midtown Expressway. The section east of Queens/Woodhaven Blvds was the Horace Harding Expressway. LIE came about in the 1950s when the highway entered Nassau.
Now a question for historians or good researchers. What part or parts of the now-Long Island Expressway had trolley tracks on them?
Hopefully, they'll get the facelifts they deserve, a la the BMT Broadway stations. By the way, is anyone a fan of those orange brick rehabilitated stations?
In fact, I got off at Jamaica/Van Wyck and took a Q56 to where the El currently diverges to the Archer Avenue stations. Any idea where the old El headed from there? Any evidence of it left?
Nostalgia, sounds like a lot of fun (something I would also like to do).....but on June 28th, you should have been on the M line and Rockaway line doing this.....
I started browsing through your 6/28/2003 album on ImageStation. I suppose I will enjoy its entire contents, though, as I ride the M from Forest Avenue to Chambers Street about every month, I think I will first look at the "IND to Rockaway" part, as I have not ridden on that since April 1986.
Ah, okay. Again, I only mentioned it because I know you like the M line (and Broadway El), and this was a trip with old cars on that line.
I certainly didn't mean you SHOULD actually have done that, as opposed to anything else. (It was more of just an invatation to the album, which I thought you'd enjoy). It was just a "figure of speach", but I could tell by the tone of your post that you may have taken offense to the way I wrote my post, so I wanted to clear the air.
Anyway, as for the Snediker El, according to some posts here, the planned connection that was supposed to take place this past weekend between Broadway Junction and Sutter was posponed AGAIN. I think someone mentioned it is going to now take place this coming weekend instead. We shall see (this must be the 6th or 7th time that the connection was postponed.
So the Snediker El is still alive and well until Friday....you may still have a last chance to ride it before then.....not that you "should" do that....(joke).
While we're on the topic (Myrtle el)have you ever pondered image 6608 (Brooklyn Union Gate Cars) ? I keep thinking it's on the Myrtle El looking east from Knickerbocker to Wyckoff, and that the traffic light visible at lower left is on the corner of Myrtle and Bleecker, though I can't prove this. Perhaps it's the way the angle of the streets to the el reminds me of Myrtle Avenue at 45 degree angles to the (mostly) right-angled streets and avenues in Bushwick, east of Broadway.
Thanks for the update on service on the "Snediker el" part of the Canarsie line. If I don't ride it this week, and if it is indeed shut down next weekend, I'll just have to "lump it", and content myself with on-line railfan photos "after the fact". There's a good one on Brian Weinberg's site (Sutter Avenue album)that I've added a few comments to.
Agreed. But it's a starting point.
The Long Island Rail Road powerhouse :^)
The houses in proximity to it are not very attractive...
Beautiful, just beautiful.....
So, I wonder if this is IT for the old station...or is Selkirk's curse going to live on once again? I'm to the point where I have TO SEE IT TO BELIEVE IT:
"We goin' to rock down to Atlantic Avenue ... and then we take it higher !"
Of COURSE you're right ... but ya gotta admit, the whimsy of how this is all working out is nothing short of amusing. Like Chairman Gerhard M. Dahl reaching out from beyond the grave to choke the chit out of the MTA for screwing his railroad. :)
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i26000/img_26261.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i6000/img_6601.jpg
Here's a picture of the beginning of the curve when the rest of the el still existed:
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i6000/img_6599.jpg
So don't mind the few of us who are enjoying its resistance ... it's been MOST entertaining.
(no chickens were choked in this production)
I *hope* nobody actually believes any of this, but it sure is fun to see that steel resist every effort to cut it.
By the way, just to comment on the 63rd St extension’s stations, although similar to Archer, they must’ve used much better quality materials, as I do like the look, and they held up much better (only a year younger) than the Archer stations. I don’t mind the look of the Archer stations either (they reflect the era in which they were built), it’s just that they seem to have been cheaply done, and have not taken wear and tear well at all……reproduction mosaics anyone?
Anyway, while on the subject, here's a great photo from Joe showing 49th St in the prestine condition I remember it in from around 1977.
And here's how you must've remembered it jkust before they covered the mosaics:
It's a funny era. The way they are dressed, I can just see those people going homw and turning on their TV and watching Bewitched and the Brady Bunch when they got home....
Going home to watch "Bewitched" : for some reason I associate these lines from the show with riding home on the Myrtle el on December 8, 1966 :
Samantha : I'm going home to mother !
Darrin : What for ? She's always here !
Endora : I beg your pardon !
I was never much for "The Brady Bunch", but I liked MAD's parody of "Eight is Enough" : "Eight Is Too Rough" !
Borden Ave
--RB
"...fools like you ..." Classy.
"Too late now to save america". That's America with a capital "A". I'll assume you're saving up for a one-way ticket out of here?
CG
That's where O'Reilly operates. But he has to. He'sa slightly upscale version of the Wally George show, which used to air on Channel 56 (Orange County, CA). Wally had a call-in portion,and the key thing he said was "Call Wally. AGREE with Wally") The intended audience he was marketing to was low to middle income beer-swigging males who also liked monster truck rallies, the WWF and so on.
As long as those advertiser dollars come into to stations and O'Reilly's distribution company makes its money...
Keerist, RonInBayside, what the heck has happened to you? Doesn't that audience pay taxes to our country like you? I'm shocked, shocked to hear such elitist talk coming from you. What are we but low to middle income beer-swigging males who also like sticking our noses up against the RFW, walking around draped with cameras and goofy t-shirts, collecting stamps and so on?
We ain't better than "them". Them is us. Welcome to America.
Actually, the types Wally George markets to could give a rat's ass about the RFW, Subtalk or anything else.
That's a very poor observation. Maybe if you weren't so old and senile you would be able to understand that.
Add 10 years, and you'll be OK...
:0)
Somebody needs to tell that bastard O'Reilly that the system was rescued during the 1980s by the Capital Improvement Programs, implemented under a Democrat governor (Cuomo) and Democrat mayors (Koch and Dinkins), at least two of whom did far better jobs than the current residents of Albany and Gracie Mansion.
--RB
I agree with you that Koch and Cuomo did a better job than no one, but sometimes no one is better than someone.
(Bloomberg doesn't live in Gracie Mansion)
The MTA bureaucracy do a good job of sprucing up tourist stations, but if you take, for example, the N train from out in Brooklyn, you can see first hand what he means. The Bay Parkway station, for example, is almost never cleaned, the windows are bricked up, garbage is everywhere, and during rush hour it seems like they're running a Sunday schedule.
No, they do a good job of tackling the stations with the heaviest ridership and interconnections.
"but if you take, for example, the N train from out in Brooklyn, you can see first hand what he means. The Bay Parkway station, for example, is almost never cleaned, the windows are bricked up, garbage is everywhere, and during rush hour it seems like they're running a Sunday schedule."
Maybe. So the folks who use the stations have to organize and complain about it - to the MTA, elected officials, strappies, whatever. Make enough noise, and you'll get attention.
And while they're at it, they could try not littering. In fact, they could try doing a little clean-up themselves. "Adopt a station" isn't just for tourists. Anybody can do it.
Such was the case with the Franklin Avenue Shuttle. Before its rehabilitation, it was in total shambles as a result of the blight of the 70's and 80's. I believe the MTA was going to demolish the entire line but thanks to community outreach, the MTA did an entire 180 on the line. Now, it's one of the most beautiful lines yet.
MTA isn't evil or purposefully neglectful - it is responding to a lot of screams for this, that and the other. Want something? Get in there and fight for it. But you have to learn how, be prepared to make compromises (everybody does) and be persistent.
Only problem is there's only one kinda of political animal to play whack-a-mole with these days and they're just as off the wall as the bleeding heart types of the 60's were. I just don't like dogmatics who insist that "you're either with us or you're against us, and if you're against us, we're going to take you out." I remember an America where we could argue all sides of something and find a WORKING compromise somewhere in the middle. The loss of that consensus ability is what gets my rump in the air so often.
As to O'Reilly though, he's just another gasbag. Big secret - the conservative bent he plays in his little sidewalk act is a SHOW. Personally, he's to the left of Cuomo.
And ON TOPIC, he's AFRAID of trains. ALL trains.
YOU REPORT WE DECIDE.... a complete ASShole.....fair and balanced...HAHAHA.
Peace,
ANDEE
For the record, I don't care for Donahue or King, either.
Peace,
ANDEE
You called the Bronx a "slag heap", but you've since been forgiven. Forgive me, but I'm cursed with a memory like flypaper. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I was, and am, happily married. If I weren't, I would have thought it over and probably complained to her boss anyway. Stupid is stupid, after all...
Because the Democratic ladies keep getting what they want, and the Republican ladies are dressed to kill, in case they might get it one day?
:0)
Peace,
ANDEE
Bill "Newkirk"
How long has it been since he first tried breaking into the media?
So, if the Trenton Line or the CNJ main or the NYC Main to Albany became "power alleys" it could significantly cut the cost of electrifacation and make such projects feasable. Any thoughts?
Here are images of the Delair power alley:
1) The RRs owning the ROW could get a big tax break / income source.
2) Pass a bill that gives a bigger break if they string up catenary.
3) It eliminates issues with substations needing to be located near a powerline.
4) The ROW exists, connects in a useful, even 'networked' fashion, and can be readilly utilized.
5) The 12kv 60hz and 25kv 60hz power systems are proven technology, and could be easily implemented this way.
6) Utility substations and RR electric ones could be located on the same site, saving money.
7) Helicopter inspection of HT lines for 'hot 'spots' could scan the RR's catenary too, saving on inspection costs.
8) Workers who work on those lines will be up and out of the way of the catenary - and are trained to be around it anyway.
9) The errection of towers could easily be structured in a way that doesn't affect RR schedules (they bring some in by helicopter, I believe).
In some places, you'd need catenary poles still, but you'd need far fewer. And designing a catenary friendly HV tower is easy (it's been done on old Reading lines).
The idea of using the hudson line as a power transmission ROW is nice - string up catenary and you can ditch the flaky old turboliners for a few ALP-46s and run a decent service to Albany...
The problem -- the logical power connection is upstate, but the Harlem Line passes through some of the richest towns, and towers on the Hudson Line would run into mega scenic opposition.
Are the problems/dangers with running high voltage lines underground?
If the unsightly utilities were buried, I don't think the NIMBYs would whine. But it does cost a little more. Simple solution, bill the NIMBYs for the additional construction. :)
But we've got PLENTY of "watts for tots," NO WAITING!
If the lines a burried rather than strung out overhead then so much the better.
Of course the same can be done over (or under-along side of) any interstate highway too, without having to pay the RR an access fee.
Private companies were prohibitted from burring optic fiber and telco lines under the interstates, thus is why they built them on RR ROW.
But the truth is, if you (the several congress critters) would get of your duffs and BUILD the HSR corredors that I proposed, then all of this infrastructure, power, data comm... etc could be built into the Line Guidewys.
Elias
You could bury the power lines on the ROW, but of course that's more expensive, as others have noted.
Also, I'm not sure the problem with lack of transmission capacity is the lack of ROW, except in very selected areas.
MTA New York City Transit
Service Alert
As of 11:15 pm, August 15, 2003
Due to lingering power problems, there is no NYC Transit Subway service at this time system-wide. All scheduled weekend construction work has been canceled.
NYC Transit Bus service is running on every route with particular emphasis placed on 63 priority routes in each borough serving major corridors. In addition, NYC Transit is operating two shuttles between Jamaica, Queens and Penn Station. Those shuttles are Sutphin Boulevard/Jamaica Station to Penn Station and Parsons-Archer to Penn Station.
We expect paratransit services to be at near normal levels, but passengers who have reservations should call the Paratransit Command Center at 877-337-2017 to confirm.
MTA HomeNYC TransitLong Island Rail RoadLong Island BusMetro-North RailroadBridges & Tunnels
HOW does FLOODING even OCCUR when the power (and water) is out??
Thanks brah.
(I was housed in Pelham Bay overnight (sans water)... so the
"Water near the rails" philosophy didn't add up... Self presumed
EVERYONE was without water downtown..)
I once read that the highest NYC reservoir in the Catskills is as far above sea level as the tip of the Empire State Building's spire.
Todt Hill, Staten Island, highest point in NYC : 410 ft.
Long Hill - Fort Washington, highest point in Manhatten : 285 ft.
Fieldston Hill, highest point in Bronx: 284 ft.
North Shore Towers Hill, highest point in Queens: 258 Feet
Battle Hill, Highest point in Brooklyn : 220 ft.
The Empire State Building is Height: 1,472 feet to top of antennae, so Neversink Reservoir is almost there.
It might sound silly, but lack of running water can easily become a health hazard issue, so a large residential building might certainly want to invest into having an emergency generator running the pumps.
David
Figure if the GO's can get PPD, so can the closings.... or nay??
The LIRR is operating on a regular weekend schedule.
MTA Metro-North Railroad
Service Alert
As of 6 PM Con-Edison has provided electrical service to Grand Central Terminal.
This will enable Metro-North to provide limited train service for the rest of Friday evening. Customers may have to wait up to two hours for a train.
Metro-North anticipates that it will resume it's regularly scheduled service on Saturday August 16.
We appreciate your patience during this region-wide power outage.
What a letdown.
The wire services (AP, Reuters, and the sports reporting networks) are in a sense a poolable asset.
TV networks do the same. ABC gets a feed from CNN if it doesn't have its own camera crews on the scene of a big story. But it has to tell you "Courtesy of CNN" when it shows the footage.
This is correct. Most newspapers are members of AP and UPI. Any news story they originate goes out over the wires and other subscribers to these services may print them. Only infrequently will a paper put it's own copyright slug on a story, forcing other papers to quote that paper as the source of their information.
TV stations also subscribe to AP and UPI, but their video feeds are more closely protected, thus you see these credits as to where footage has come from. CNN tends to have stringers all over the place, and will credit this stringer in a story, even though he is really an employee of a different station.
Elias
Adam
What difference would it make, there wouldn't be a train on which the training would do any good.
They have one for the R-143's !!!
The R110B train cars are of a unique length unlike the 60' and 75'
The R110A, if the brakes don't fail again, maybe the #2 or it will join the mess on the #4
While I agree, I'd like to see them on the Franklin and 42nd St shuttles, the R110A-B order was hardly ill-fated. There was NEVER supposed to be more R110's than were ever ordered. They were TEST trains, and that's all they were supposed to be. They were the prototypes for the R143 and R142 orders.
-------
before:
after:
i woke up yesterday [8/14] at 4:30 a.m. after about an hour's worth of sleep. i couldn't sleep. i was heading to new york city and i was seeing casey -- for the last time before we both head off to college. my came back from camp on the 13th, so we figured not to do it then as the date was obviously unlucky. thankfully, she was right. i would've been kicking myself if i had gone in on the 13th only to find out what had happened the following day.
my train left at 6:35 a.m. from route 128 in westwood. it got to penn station shortly after 10:30. i met casey at our spot -- east gate 11-12 at the amtrak / nj transit lobby. we purchased metro cards and rode over to the brooklyn bridge. we both walked from the brooklyn side back into manhattan, making sure to stop under the two giant structures and kiss. we walked over to a park near city hall [across from j&r] and did the same for a minute or two. then we took the subway over to my dorm -- loeb hall at new school university on east 12th. we went to the pizza place next door. i had a boring cheese slice so i wouldn't get *too* sick and she had a veggie one. we walked back over to the subway and took it one stop to union square where we giggled, talked, and kissed for a few hours. little did we know all hell was breaking loose around us.
shortly after 4, we walked over to the toys r us in union square only to find the store lights out and the emergency lights on. we didn't think much of it until we walked over to an avenue and looked out to find every street light out for a considerable distance. so we figured little italy would have to wait. instead we made our way back to penn station -- walking with the millions. pedestrians were trying to direct traffic. some stores were handing out water and other food [ice cream, i now hear]. we finally made it back to penn station about 45 minutes later [all walking] only to find it closed. thousands of people were waiting outside for anything. cops told us penn would be closed for a good amount of time. thousands of people were sitting on the post office steps next to penn station. lines to use the landline phone were a good ten deep. cellphones were powerless.
so we walked. we tried to get into the new yorker ramada only to find it impossible. after a few hours of sitting in the restaurant then lying down in the lobby, we got kicked out. we walked to 42nd street and tried the marquis. no luck. but times square was a sight -- everything was out. all the lights, all the screens -- all everything. cops were riding horses up and down 7th ave. they were still extremely friendly. we walked to rockefeller and tried a hotels there. by now, some were checking for hotel keys only to gain access into to the buildings. we may have gotten on fox news, as they were broadcasting live outside the news corp building all night long. there was a busker imitating barry white with a full disco light set in the same area. finally, we ventured over to the hotel empire in columbus circle. only after hecklers were yelling, "rudy would've gotten the lights back on for the people! w's on vacation -- how convenient!"
hotel empire sent us over to the ymca across the street. they claimed it was probably the only place left with rooms, and they were probably correct. outside, we were checked in, at a mere $57. my credit card was entered by hand -- the old fashioned way. we were escorted upstairs by flashlight and spent the night. by morning, the lights were back on. the air conditioner was up. so i went to book a train for friday. the wait to talk to a human on amtrak's reservation line was 38 minutes, so i used their automated phone system and booked a 12:03 acela express ticket for $72. finally, i was getting out.
casey and i purchased our newspapers in the morning and stopped into this coffee shop operated by a russian jew (and him alone). he didn't speak a word of english. he was running all over the shop trying to make the morning rush work. each time it became full, he locked the shop off. literally -- he went over and locked it. it was absolutely new york at its finest. so after my french toast and casey's bagel, we walked toward penn station. funny thing happened at times square -- half of it was dark. shit. we kept walking, hoping penn was back on. when we got there, it simply wasn't. limited trains were operating, but none north of new york city. new jersey transit was still running, so casey suggested that i get over to newark, where continental runs an hourly shuttle to boston. we both got on the same trenton bound train. she cried, then i did after i got off. i paid the $5 exit fare at newark's liberty airport then as i prepared to take the tram over to the terminals, i called continental and was fortunately [like -- thank god -- i had no idea what i'd do if this didn't work] able to book a flight back to boston at $116 over the phone. i had to run around the terminal for a bit to find the right place for check-in [my first time flying in, eh, five years]. i was next to this really kind polish guy who was heading back to pittsburgh to see his kids. he gave me his home phone number and offered free housing for myself or any of my friends who happen to be in the pittsburgh area. he said one of his kids just headed off to cornell medical.
anyway, i checked in after about twenty minutes in line [which i've heard isn't that bad]. then went through security where a real new yorker picked on my red sox credit card [i knew this was going to happen at some point]. i devoured an orange juice [in ten seconds? i was starving!] then bought a water for the flight, and shortly after 1 p.m. i was up in the air. [i was feeling like crap too -- no shower, same clothes; my hair was a mess and i needed to shave desperately]. the plane wasn't even completely full. i doubt many even know about newark -- the only airport with departures yesterday. i arrived at logan [40 minutes in the air] just after 2. casey called *just* as i touched down in boston. i took the massport express back to braintree and was finally just about home.
running on empty, i got in just before 4 p.m. i went to sleep and finally got back up. my first real sleep in a solid three days. scary thing is -- i head back to new york, for good, a week from today.
so that's my story. the one to tell my nonexistent grandchildren. i must thank everyone who tried contacting me. sucks the phones were down. the text messages, voicemails, emails, and instant messages will not soon be forgotten. i think this means i was a part of history.
had a boring cheese slice so i wouldn't get *too* sick ---Lactose Intolerant?
I'd really like a $7 refund from the MTA. Either that or put it toward a 30 day pass I'll be purchasing on the 23rd.
Wuss.
I've only seen yesterday evening (1:00 pm NYC-time) on the news
a few pics of the blackout. A lot of people walk on a street
(I think it was a highway) and evacuating a subway train.
2) Were more chaos in the city while WTC desaster or during the blackout?
(generally not subway)
I was up for an hour at 3:00 a.m., and there was no power. But it was back on when I woke for good at 6:00 a.m. Maximum 14 hours. We were among the lucky ones.
Peace
David
From a strictly transportational point of view 9/11 was less severe. Penn Station and Grand Central were closed for only a few hours, presumably while being searched for bombs, and some subways were running by mid-afternoon.
Of course, in most respects 9/11 was far, far more disruptive.
I've heard it on that day first on the radio and turned immediately
the TV on. (Time: few min before second tower was hit). It was
shocking to see that and gave me a very very bad feeling.
Such a long blackout, like you have/had, is also a some sort
of unbeliveable. (29 hours no power => no refrigerator is working [f.e.])
I'm not sure of that. The bridges and tunnels were locked down for days, there was a carpool restriction in effect for months, the N/R was out for several months and the 1/9 for a year, with ripple effects elsewhere.
This was a complete shutdown, but for just 30 hours. I'll bet more service was lost in the blizzard of '96 than today, though not in the blizzard of 2003 (what next, hurricane?)
I guess I should feel lucky compared to others' experiences, but I still don't know why I should have been without power in clear weather for half a day for an event that occurred 400-600 miles away.
I was out five days during Hurricane Gloria, but they virtually had to rebuild the transmission system from scratch.
CG
What would you have left to complain about? You'd shrivel up and die!!! Think about the consequences of your action, man.
CG
can I move in with you guys for a while?
www.forgotten-ny.com
http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2003/08/15/the_new_york_city_blackout_edition.php
www.forgotten-ny.com
Subway service on the 1, 7, A, J, L, and M lines was restored at midnight, but transit officials warned that the full system might not be in operation until later in the day. Paul Fleuranges, a spokesman for New York City Transit, said that as power was gradually restored last night, track inspectors found several blown fuses, one train stuck in water, and water on some tracks.
Anyone have any idea when regular service will be restored? I've got an appointment in Sunset Park :)
All the diversion whiners feel free to celebrate. I guess I'll have to start figuring out what that cost us on Monday.
Sounds roughly comparable to a big snowstorm, though without the equipment damage that could result from snow.
For instance: one weekend a few months ago, the NB C was supposed to run express, and the NB D was supposed to go local from 59th to 125th. D's, in fact, had been running local on Saturday. On Sunday, I was on a D (along with a fellow SubTalker) that came into 59th on the local track, connecting with an A on the express. Guess what -- the D promptly switched to the express track. So what happened? The GO terminated early and this particular D was put on the local simply to get in front of the A. Had to backtrack from 125th at Sunday evening C headways -- not pleasant.
Ozzy Zamora
MTA NYCT Traffic Checker
Ultimate fan of Miami Dade Transit
Peace
David
That means they'll have to try to make up time during the next several weekends, or do it at night and cancel overnight services. The work still has to get done.
www.SubwayInfo.com
Providing Door-To-Door Subway Directions
Peace,
ANDEE
It was an act? Could've fooled me, beatch.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
;-) Andrew
I changed trains at 42nd street (one block away) to an Astoria bound N. I must have boarded about 11:30PM and what a difference. I got a seat, but by the time the train pulled out of Fifth Ave. there were many people standing. At that time I thought of how different the C and the N are. The C, would only be that crowded at rush hour, but the N was nearly full at the midnight hour. I felt no anxiety on the N. Ever since then, I get somewhat anxious riding the local on CPW after 10PM.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I guess "local" is a little slow.
Maybe I should change my handle to the Z.
The G would also fit that description, possibly the J and L too.
I agree with the G, but I find the J to be a very interesting line. The L is okay, especially on the eastern end, but it is a bit monotonous between Myrtle and 8th Ave. Nice stations, but it does seem to be a bit endless when you do it every day.
I think the C is one of those "How the mighty has fallen" lines. It was a very interesting line in the late 80's-early 90's when it ran from Bedford Park Blvd to Rockaway Park. What a line it was back then. Now it is a bit boring. The 8th Ave line is a rather uninteresting line with depressing IND stations, and Fulton is okay, but also a bit monotonous.
I think the R is probably the least appreciated (probably with good reason), followed by the G, and then the C. The E is also all underground, but at least that goes express on QB. But I don't feel the L or the J deserve to be put into that category. The J of course is my favorite line, so I am a bit biased.
D'oh! I spoke too soon. The A across Jamaica Bay is of course another highlight.
Touristy, heh :-P
I say any of the routes that goes to Times Square would attract many tourists. I say the Broadway and 7 Av lines [more people on the 1 probably] would attract many tourists seeing that the 1 serves Lincoln Center, Times Sq, Columbus Circle and Harlem for the 2/3. On Broadway it is also Times Sq and Herald Sq.
I second the motion. Even if the adjacent track is occupied and you don't get a clear shot, she's still a sweet sight to behold.
I mailed my form 2 weeks ago.
Koi
In June there were still a few seats available on both IRT & IND trips as we pulled out.
Since he works for the TA, I assume he's been a little busy.
As for pre orders, have advised the person in charge of your concerns
and awating a reply.
8-) ~ Sparky
As for pre orders, have advised the person in charge of your concerns
and awating a reply.
8-) ~ Sparky
If you're bored and need something on which to feast your eyes this weekend, check out the Illinois Railway Museum's website at www.irm.org. It's "Day Out With Thomas" weekend, which means things will really be jumping. The steam train is running, and there will be a lot of traffic on the streetcar line. And if that isn't enough, our webmaster put in a SECOND webcam just for this event - it shows the loading area, and also shows part of the streetcar line. I would encourage everyone to take a look.
Frank Hicks
Supv loads van with fresh T/O's -> Drops off new T/O and picks up the original T/O -> After making all drops/picks, returns to the terminal.
They waited for me to get permission as we all lived in Queens. I called and they refused to give me permission to leave. The E crew had waited for me and then the van showed up. If they had not been nice enough to wait the extra 20 mins for me they would have missed a ride.
As I said a few times if they got us water and batteries I would have felt much better about staying even longer. Toilet paper would have been almost luxurious.
At first they wanted us to stay physically on the train. My clock has an electric thermometer and the upper staircase was 92 the booth area was warmer, the platform and tracks and train still warmer. I am pretty sure from the noises and tiny blood trails that the rats started to eat each other. That was a MAJOR yuck.
All but one TA flashlight failed. The cops gave us 2 more. I only had my LED flashlight by the end (I carry 3 flashlights and used to carry 4)
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=161335&category=&BCCode=&newsdate=8/16/2003
There was also an amusing article in today's Times Union PRINT copy providing advice from the Iraqis as to how New Yorkers should cope with their power out but the link to it is already broken. Hopefully it showed up in YOUR newspapers, it was an AP story.
After the 1965 fiasco, Con Ed built a master control facility on 77th Street. I'll not say more about it. At the same time, the feds recommended that a "Power Pool" be created to coordinate the seven investor owned utilities in New York State and in other states sharing what was known as the "Eastern grid." These "Power Pools" would be respnsible for monitoring the network as a whole and control the flow of electrons, determine how much power would be required and WHICH generators would be fired up, how much they'd need to push and based on changes in demand make sure that kettles were cooking and ready to push ON TIME to meet the demand, plus a cushion in case of a "whoopsie." It all worked fairly well until 1977 when a lightning strike knocked out BOTH of the power lines feeding NYC from the grid upstate. Con Ed did NOT have enough generating capacity, and with the Dunwoodie interconnect GONE, they started sucking power from New Jersey and from Long Island.
In 1977, things worked as they should. When overload occurred on the circuits from LILCO and PSE&G, these feeders tripped out leaving ConEd to their own devices. Alas, the load was far beyond what ConEd could crank and down it went. The REST of the system though remained up, not that this helped NYC much. This is also the reason why NYC needs its own plants, something that was done a couple of years ago with all those funky jet engines sprawled around the city JUST in case.
Where everything went to hell in a handbasket though THIS time will most likely be determined to be the result of the dilution of the AUTHORITY of the Power Pool in Guilderland about two miles from where I live. The "Power Pool" got renamed by the Newtie congress as part of the Enroning of the power supply and became the "Independent System Operator" or ISO ... had they been legally allowed to maintain their AUTHORITY and CONTROL, perhaps this wouldn't have happened. Unfortunately, the desire to allow all those little Enronettes out there to TRADE electric shares like some ghoddamned NASDAQ game, made even worse by slapping it onto the internet as an "E-Trade" kind of game resulted in pretty much anybody with a terminal to reroute power, overriding the single point of control that once was.
The preliminary report I linked to in a previous message today suggests that this was a factor. In other words, it would APPEAR that the speculative forces neutered the ability to control what occurred, or so that seems from what I've been reading and hearing.
But in a nutshell, there's the scenario. I might also add that the investigation *IS* looking into the possibility that computer hacking directly into the ISO's control facility or one of the computers belonging to one of the traders has *NOT* been ruled out as yet.
So here we are ... the investigation is ongoing. But CLEARLY the gatekeepers DID get overruled and a situation that SHOULD have shut down the lines into Ohio remained up for over an hour when they SHOULDN'T have ... if the "Power Pool" had complete control, it's quite apparent (to me at least) that this couldn't and wouldn't have happened. Ultimately, deregulation was at least a PART of the failure mode. The DEGREE to which it was remains undetermined.
In other words, the power pool let NYC go down the tubes in 1977 to save everyone else, but this time around there was no such cutoff? Sheesh.
One thing I've heard is that the entire event took ten seconds. Isn't it possible that things just happened too fast for human decisionmaking, and without it computers would be cutting people off all the time?
http://www.nerc.com/pub_doc/PreliminaryDisturbanceReport.pdf
It's an Adobe PDF file. Contains the details of the chain reaction and the TIMES when each occurred. For anyone wanting to monitor the investigation, go here:
http://www.nerc.com/
And of course, how long did it take for an agreement to be reached to replace an old oil burner in LIC with a gas-fired plant that will increase capacity by, at most, a couple of hundred megawatts?
Selkirk, I remember the '77 blackout, living in Nassau County as today. But we retained power while NYC went dark. How come L.I. was pulled into the black hole two days ago, unlike '77 ?
I even remember back in '77 that the Rockaway Peninsula was the only part of NYC having power, since they get their juice from LILCO. You think LIPA may be rethinking using the defunct Shoreham Nuke plant in light of the 8/14/03 fiasco ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Hate to say it, but proud to be a republican. :(
Tell ya what ... to SEE how speculation and deregulation has "brought it on" perhaps THIS document (Adobe PDF) entitled "TURNING POWER INTO PROFIT" might make it all as clear as mud:
http://www.nyiso.com/services/training/cinfo/pdf/brochure.pdf
Sorry to keep harping on the politics, but like the fare hike, the economy, Amtrak and now this - we're ALL suffering from the tangible results of the neoconservatives and their party. It'd probably be a different tune I was singing if somehow something GOOD came of all this, but so far I ain't seen anything larger than a $3.00 bill. :(
In the end, it's ALL politics. At least as far as things that MATTER go. :(
Let's take this a step further. Deregulation was supposed to allow market prices to give people an incentive to do "the right thing." However, neither transmission reliability nor conservation is reflected in the price, so there is no incentive at all.
Take reliability. Let's say one source of supply in, say, Ohio is cheaper but less reliable, while another in, say, Queens is more reliable but more expensive. Let's say that I pay more to get power from the Queens source. Does that mean I don't get blacked out? No. Let's say I pay more to draw supply along the brand new electric cabld with all the reliability technology. Does that mean I don't get blaced out? No.
How about conservation? Excessive demand was not the cause of the blackout THIS time, but let's say it was. We have no Air Conditioning, florescents in every fixture, a cloths line in the backyard, and a new, relatively efficient frig. We use far less power than average. Does that mean that when the temparature hits 100 we don't get blacked out? No. We lose our fans, the energy hog's house is cooler because the moment before the blackout it was 65 degrees and not 80.
The Grid = Tradgedy of the Commons.
Crossing gates were stuck in the down position on the main line, and police were directing traffic around the gates.
On the Montauk Branch, some grade crossing gates went to the down position, while others stayed up. The cops put flairs around the pitch black intersection, and directed cars around. I wonder why some gates stay up, while others go down.
I had to take a drive around, it was so strange. In town, some of the bars were open with candlelight, sort of a nice atmosphere. Flairs were also in the intersections where usually there would have been traffic lights. The town had such a strange look to it in the dark, and everyone seemed to be milling around. The coffee shops were closed, but the bars that were open were doing a pretty good business in the candlelight.
Glen Cove avenue, Glen Cove (near Sea Cliff)
Glen Cove road and Northern Blvd, Greenvale
Pitch black. The light you see is the flash bouncing off cars on a residential Glen Cove street
LIRR in the morning, empty, no trains, not many people either
For more pictures, check out the album
at http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4289386379
Although batteries would help, they're maintenance intensive, VERY expensive and we were all ASSURED that something like this CANNOT happen because a deregulated marketplace would break the inefficient nasty government monopoly and provide reliability. Whoops. :)
For a building, they are not particularly labor intensive...
For a subway system replete with vandalism it could be very expensive and labor intensive.
I suspect it would be cheaper to put gas powered generatiors in each station and use these to run emergency lighting. There are only what? 400 some odd stations, and the sell the darn things at Sears for a few hundred bucks each.
Of course the TA needs generator sets of much better quality, but then they could also provide some emergency tunnel lighting too.
The bill ought not to be too prohibitive.
Heck, I'd bet you they could round up a few hundred old diesel locomotives and put their innards in the station somewhere with proper exhaust ventilation to the outside.
One such set could light up most of any single line in Manhattan.
DUHhhh!
When the 14th Street station went out last year many stations were illuminated by emergency lighting only. Its adequate for normal operations - at least at stations with newer lighting. My guess is that its primary purpose is in case it is necessary to evacuate a station.
The reason you didn't see them on Thursday is that for safety reasons when all AC power was lost (no tunnel lighting), RTO cut the third rail power systemwide. With no third rail power the emergency lights had no power either.
The MTA is smart in making this decision but as usual, I see a thread at the Rider Diaries which counters that, poorly in fact.
Well, they are not happy unless they are whining about something.
If there are double numbers used (10-99) then the double letters (AA-ZZ)
can instead be reintroduced.
The MTA is smart in making this decision but as usual, I see a thread at the Rider Diaries which counters that, poorly in fact.
Oh brother :-x
Or will another train need to be added during the rush if all trains make all stops along the full length
last time I checked the 1 and 9 distribution wasn't an even split
NOT. Because the crew must now bass through the trains with a rubber hose, ousting all of the geese thats want to travel further, the dwell time in the station becomes too long and ties up other traffic.
ANY station where you need to discharge the train will cause this problem, especially on the (1) lion, where trains get backed up anyway.
That is not to say the 139th Street is not NEEDED as a turning point to relieve congestion at the terminal.
Now then, *I-Have-A-Plan*..... : )
the eastern most yard track is removed and replaced with a ramp going down and under the 137th Street yard. The western most yard track is also ramped down.
Now trains terminating at 137 just run the loop and go back south.
No need to empty the train, if the geese cannot tell a 137 train from a 242 train, if they cannot hear the announcements, so be it, they will go back to South Ferry and then give it another try, and see if the train then goes to 242, or if it runs the 137 loop agaiin.
Elias
Short-turning trains would switch to the current SB track and change ends. While short-turning is in effect, through SB trains would use the new track to get by. At other times, they'd run as they do now.
Probably too expensive to be worth considering.
Yup... But that is before they had to carefully inspect each train for lost geese. 96th St or 137th Street, makes no difference, you cannot tie the line up that long for a short-turn train.
Besides, the thig with the (3) was just to use the 137 yard as storage, we are looking to speed short turns to the south to give the 7th-Bwy more tph than the 242St station can handle.
Elias
Wait ... do you mean that trains used to go out of service at 96th without being checked for passengers still onboard? Wouldn't that leave people stranded on OOS trains at 137th?
After the PM rush, four 3 trains would be discharged, checked for stray passengers, and then proceed light up M track from north of 96 St to EITHER north of 145, then dump and change ends, then proceed s/b to 137 Yard to the next available spot on the two western-most tracks OR south of the portal, cross to 1 Track, wrong-rail through 137 and take the next available spot on the two western-most tracks at 137 St Yard.
In general, when I say go(es) out of service, it includes the concept of 'fumigation'.
lately, I've been riding the 1 to 137st and noticed that this saves a lot of time on my daily trip.
If only those stops were bypassed on a regular service plan
It would seem like it would of been a good idea but in reality it is NOT. The stations between 96 and 137 have pretty heavy use so skip stop wouldn't work there.
Of course, I hear the number 9 is becoming available soon...
wayne
That doesn't apply to the 7 and probably doesn't apply to the Q, but IMO diamonds make more sense on those lines than separate letters, too, since they're identical aside from the local-express distinction.
To the extent possible, R-32's, R-38's, R-44's, R-46's, R-142(A)'s, and R-143's should be kept off the lines where the distinction is critical, since some of their signs can't display circles or diamonds. (Long live the rollsign!)
While I thought the same way in the past myself, they still ran local via the Lexington Av local and makes sense to distinguish the (6) from the <6> b/c of the Pelham express. For the Q it is temporary and for the 5 and 7 it makes sense due to the patterns of the 5 in the weekday rush.
9 train, this is gone as of November
-----10 train, this is useful since there are two variations on both ends of the #5
-----11 train, this is feasible
12,13 is crushed by the demand for Lexington ave service
-----14 train, funny since it only bypasses 138st, but rules are rules.
-----8 train, this would be used
The 8 is the < 6 >
-----10 train, this is useful since there are two variations on both ends of the #5
The 10 is the current < 5 >
-----11 train, this is feasible
The current < 7 >
12,13 is crushed by the demand for Lexington ave service
< 12 > is a variant < 5 > that runs rush hours in Brooklyn to Flatbush.
< 13 > is not in use now, but was the short turn 1's that used to run to 137th
-----14 train, funny since it only bypasses 138st, but rules are rules.
The < 14 > is the current < 4 >, which does skip 138th Street even now.
it's just too many trains running on each trunk line. The diamond trains, may be a bit confusing, but is far less confusing than calling every possible rush hour route a diffent name.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=30892
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=31191
Just like before the Z train was developed there wasn't markings for alternate stop J's
the G used to terminate at Court Square
the B/D were on Concourse
the V went to Church Avenue
train, since that kind of trackage existed long ago
I think any gambler who uses the Flushing line would be overjoyed to see "7" and "11" used to designate the different service. He would be a winner every time.
For the record, there is no plans to extend the G. The reason why (from what I gather) is that there are not enough trains.
I understand that NYCTA is much more complicated. After so many years, why has NYCTA not yet installed on board signals yet? Is it a money problem?
I have heard the signal system described as 1930's vintage.
Essentially the train makes/breaks a circuit as it enters a "block" (track segment) and later as it exits that segment another circuit makes/breaks. The SYSTEM which is a huge network of wires and relays which interprets these changes in segment "occupancy" and displays "aspects" -- the jargon term for lights. All of this is similar in the abstract to mainline RR systems developed decades ago. The subway adds a further enforcement/safety layer of mechanical trip arms which will put a train in BIE if they "run" a red light. This system is of course maintenance intensive, but, if carefully maintained very safe.
CTA did not have such a complete system on the L sections relying on motorman vision. They have migrated to a system which gives indication in the operator's cab. NYCT is in the process of implementing a Carrier Based Train Control system on the L Canarsie. Assuming it is reliable, it will be done systemwide. The system's advantages are fewer mechanical parts to fail, less wiring, and because the "blocks" are not fixed to the tracks, greater dispatching flexibility.
By the time NYCT got rolling, technology had moved on, so it is going with CBTC, ATS, etc.
Robert
CTA Transit Cards work on buses. They worked there in July and they worked there in June of 2000. The CTA now also has a card called the ChicagoCard which is a smart card like the SmarTrip in DC. Finally, Chicago has MVM equivelents but when I used them, I only paid in cash. The only problem with getting cards on the CTA is that the 1, 2, 3, and 5 day visitor passes are only available at the airports and one or two other locations but if you can get one, it is a great deal. I rode countless times over the 3 days I was there for just 12 dollars, nor did I have to pay a surcharge on the number 6 bus to the Science and Industry Museum.
Robert
I rode a few years ago, and I was impressed with their system.
Yep I was just there, bought three 5 day visitor passes, and took the CTA everywhere, including the express bus from Science and Industry. Also had numerous Chicago style hot dogs. Not bad.
CTA's official card-buying page for more details
I wish they would have kept the old vintage subway cars rolling to compliment technology of the same age. Of course, that would have been bad PR. The public can see the rolling stock.
Modern ABS systems are completely solid state with no mechanical parts to fail. Moreover, modern wiring is highly relyable and not nearly the headache you make it out to be. CTBC will actually be a lot MORE wire intensive than ABS as you need a CTBC transponder every 100 feet or so that has to then communicate with some sort of data processing system (not to mention you still need track circut blocks to check for broken rail). Now, I don't know how the L system will work, but if you have a centralized CTBC system, you open yourselves up to line-wide service disruptions, instead of problems being limited to a small stretch of track or a single interlocking. CBTC does not lead to greater "dispatching flexibility", just a greater TPH (unless the signaling system is employed too conservatively then you're back to the same place we are now). In my eyes the ideal system is the use of cab signals, with or without fixed wayside signals. If you go without fixed waysudes, you eliminate the cost of signals except at interlockings. You can run trains closer together as you no longer need the double red block rear protection of the current system, and, because signals will now have an enforcable speed limit, you can run trains faster.
CSS will give 50% or more of the extra capacity of CBTC, it requires a lot less hardware, it is proven, off the shelf and is a lot cheaper.
Oh, as all you with cell phones know, signal reliablity with wireless systems is always a little sketchy, so be ready for frequeny BIE's on the L as the signal cuts in and out.
Don't have AIM, eh? Download it free at www.aim.com!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
You can do that on your living room floor in HO gauge, and put pictures of it here.
Plenty good enough.
Heh. Ya know, that line is sort of the Sea Beach of The Bronx. Many's the time I've wished the road would have been built all the way to Boston. Railfan wishin', I'm hip. But then, imagine it had been completed; then the city takes it over like in o.t....walla! A subway line to Bean Town!
Wheee doggies!!!!
If the NYW&B made it to Beantown, consider the possiblity of Amtrak taking it over in the 70s, not the city…and Metro-North having an alternate Connecticut route (because the line would eventually have had to be connected to Manhattan somehow)…
Another item of speculation would be what things would be like if the Philadelphia & Western had made it from 69th Street Terminal as far as Ohio at least—that would be one of the longest third-rail interurbans ever constructed in and of itself.
1) The line utilized surplus 9th Ave elevated wooden "el" cars.
2) Crews (motormen and conductors) were from the IND Division (Board of Transportation)
3) Signals were slavaged from the defunct BMT Fulton St. or 5th Ave elevated lines.
4) Express tracks were retained with their overhead caternary in case express service on a reguvenated NYW&B were to take place. That of course never happened.
5) Rebuilding of the Boston Road overpass to accommodate a widened roadway also had the catenary towers rebuilt just in case of #4 above. The towers were removed used instead for World War II scrap. The bases can still be seen today.
Just some NYW&B tidbits.
Bill "Newkirk"
--Mark
So, think of the possibilities; 3rd Ave el wooden equipment running alongside the IRT Hi v's alongside of the original NYW&B electric MUs, throw in a doodlebug or two, some RDC's, NH EP 3s and 4s and MUs, and a GG1 for special events. The Bronx portion of the 4 track mainline would sport the dual IRT third rails on the outside tracks; the express tracks would retain the 11,000V AC catenary. If the Hell Gate or New York Connecting line was equipped with 600V DC LIRR/Subway third rail, then you could have thru LIRR MU or DD1 / Bronx & Westchester service (or with RDC's or FM loco units without the 3rd rail).
Moving forward in time to the Redbird era, the 2nd Ave subway would have replaced the 3rd Ave El. The southern Bronx portion of the NH/NYW&B ROW is still a natural aboveground link to the line, and the dream continues. The 180th St Terminal would have become a transit / railfan's dream world.
Man notices hand-made sign attached to entrance showing that there are "no trains".
Man: "There aren't any trains running?"
T/O: "No sir, the trains are not running at this time."
Man: "How come?"
Boy did his girlfriend get a good laugh at his expense.
I'm walking out of the gate at Main St and close the gate behind me. A guy sees and asks me "No train?"
:0)
Woman: "The trains are on time, right?"
(The ticket agent and I both look at her like we were gonna smack the sh*t outta her)
Ticket clerk: "No ma'm, no trains"
Woman: "Why?"
Me: "Because the trains here run on 3rd rail, which needs electricity, and the signals are all out too."
Woman: "So what?"
The ticket clerk shuts the shades in front of her window, and I just turn away, trying to keep my self from bursting out laughing(not such a great attempt though)
This is what that woman represents.
Earth, Wind, Fire and Water.
Hmmm. Dude, all I can say is, I'll bet that woman could've done the same thing to you if the situations was reversed, and you were the clueless one. I'm not trying to bust your chops here but I'd be a little more careful about whom I was bursting out laughing at in public. Hey, imagine someone treating your mother like that?
Not everybody has your interest in the field. Lots of folks just don't want to have to think about stuff like we in this group do. I agree it's a pity. If more people had interest in science and other technologies we'd be able (as a society) to make better choices about a lot of things; space travel and ground-based transportation would be prominent in that scenario. There'd be both colonies on Mars and intra-continental HSR lines crisscrossing the country.
But to stand there and laugh at people for their lack of knowledge...it's not nice, bro.
I could understand not understanding that the train is not running because of the blackout, after all, cars were still running.
But after the explanation given, there was no excuse not to understand.
Why shouldn't people question why the transit system couldn't be seperated from the grid, too? There are reasons why it's not - but there are reasons it might have been, too.
I agree that laughing at someone's questions isn't nice. In fact, it is quite arrogant when you assume the person is stupid instead of, perhaps, questioning why the transit system wasn't better insulated from electrical grid issues.
That's why I laughed. Not b/c she didn't know about how the trains run, but how she didn't understand even after we explained it to her in a way a person with only half a brain could understand.
(Just in case you didn't get the reference click here)
Jimmy ;)
Not quite the same thing--but when I was in school (Computer Science major) there was a new student operator in the computer room, I think it was the late shift, and on the console (IBM 370/158 mainframe)there was a red button. So I guess said operator was bored and pushed it to see what it did. Well seems it was the emergency shutdown button :P The computer was screwed up for most of the day (fortunately it wasn't near the end of the semester when programs were due), and needless to say that person was no longer an operator after that. :)
Had that been the case today, the effect would have been relatively small:
(A)(B)(C)(D)(E)(F)(G) No service
(R) diverted to QBP
(S) Rock Pk - No service
DUHHHHH!!!!!!
Refered to the man's stupidiuos idiotic question
"Its called 2003 Northeast Blackout that "SUSPENDED" ALL Subways, LIRR, Metro North, NJT, Amtrak, PATH Service as of 5:00 EDT July 14, 2003
DAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!DUHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HAHAHAHAHA
To reiterare the meeting time and place:
Monday morning at 8:30 at the Glenmont Metro station, meet at the Ride-On route 49 stop in the bus station area. If you are coming by bus and your bus will arrive shortly after 8:30, let me know and we will wait. Otherwise, all bets are off!
Lv Glenmont 8:49 AM
Ar Fort Totten ?
Lv Fort Totten 9:12
Ar Greenbelt 9:24
Lv Greenbelt 9:33
Ar Gallery Place 9:58
We will stop at Gallery Place only if people can not meet us at 8:30 at Glenmont or if they miss us. You need to contact someone in order for us to do this. We will only wait one (1) Green Line interval. Be there before we get to you! This is NOT a photo stop, you will be restricted to the lower level of the station for picture taking.
Lv Gallery Place 10:10
Ar Branch Avenue 10:32
Lv Branch Avenue 10:43
Ar L'Enfant Plaza 11:02
The following branches can and may be done in reverse order:
Lv L'Enfant Plaza 11:14
Ar Addison Road 11:33
Lv Addison Road 11:41
Ar Stadium-Armory 11:50
Lv Stadium-Armory 12:06 PM
Ar New Carrollton 12:20
Lv New Carrollton 12:30
Ar Farragut West 1:00
Lunch
There is a food court at the Farragut North K Street enterance. We will get food and if it is nice out and the humidity is bearable, eat in Farragut Square. The busfans can watch the scenery during this time. We may also eat at the food court at the Ronald Reagan Building (near Federal Triangle) or the Shops at National Place (near Metro Center).
Lv Farragut West 1:48 PM
Ar Vienna 2:15
Lv Vienna 2:23
Ar Rosslyn 2:45
Lv Rosslyn 2:59
Ar Franconia-Springfield 3:27
Lv Franconia-Springfield 3:33
Ar King Street 3:45
Lv King Street 3:56
Ar Huntington 3:59
Lv Huntington 4:02
Ar Gallery Place 4:25
Lv Gallery Place 4:32
Ar Fort Totten 4:43
Lv Fort Totten 4:48
Ar Grosvenor 5:22
PHOTO STOP
Lv Grosvenor 5:37
Ar Shady Grove 5:49
If you want to come, please e-mail me or Brian. Meeting info is above. See you Monday!
Metro Center
Gallery Place
Eisenhower Avenue
Arlington Cemetary
National Airport
Cheverly
Also, the following stations are being used for transfering so you can get photos there:
Glenmont
Fort Totten
L'Enfant Plaza
Stadium-Armory
Farragut West
Rosslyn
King Street
Finally, there will not be a photo stop at Pentagon under any circumstances, nor should anyone try taking photos there on their own time.
E-mail me, I can adjust some things here and there.
Re the Kosher restaurant, I can't think of any place downtown that would work. The no food rule on the Metro only applies to consumption, feel free to bring something and just eat it when we have lunch if you want to do that. Either way, if they tell you of a place you can go, let me know and we can modify the lunch plan.
The first train to move was a northbound W train, which pulled out of the Stairwell [sic] Station in Brooklyn at 11:57 p.m. Friday, said Mark Groce, a New York City Transit spokesman.
Tho the 1 was 1 of the first lines back online..
http://www.trainweb.org/phillynrhs/RPOTW.html
Taking the kids tomorrow.
stolen
transitblog.com
NYCSubway.com..."I have your back!"
(At the blackboard:)
nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org nycsubway.org
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
What else do you want to know? :)
QUIEN ERES?? DE DONDE VENISTE??
Anwyay, I have decided to pick up the "pen," and make a difference. I am tired of sitting back and watch unfairness (fare hike), go on without doing anything about it. So, thus here I am now among you.
I am the result or reaction out of someone else's action. Scary b/c, this is how batman and spiderman got started, and other vigilantes (The Punisher). But, maybe I will be a good superhero. :)
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
lol
But in my history folder is the big version on her pic. :-)
ikeepon, Do you want have it?
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/logo/sit150.gif
But I remember sweating on the R train, stuck at City Hall Station, back when the WTC was still there, and pidgeons nested there, and it was getting close to midnight and all I wanted was to get back to Gelston Avenue in Bay Ridge.
But you train guys were great. Huge numbers of train-after-train of discharged passengers getting pissed off going up to midnight, and the overdresseed lady back in the windowed tower at the rear of City Hall Station.
Hey! You train guys are great!
I am certain you were great two days ago.
Their one of the interesting things about the twin box cut and cover tunnels used on this project. Unlike twin box cut and cover tunnels used elsewhere in the WMATA system. The center partition wall between the two parallel tunnels do not have opening that are spaced at 26’ 7.92m centers.
In my opinion could slow rescue time in the event of an emergency. It would also seem that the it would cost more by adding the extra 2.5 cubic yards 1.682 cubic meters of concrete every 26’ 7.92m along the more then 4,475’ 1363.98m of twin box cut and cover tunnels.
John
I don’t think so. Virtually all of the cut and cover tunnels on this new segment are shallow compared to similar and deeper cut and cover tunnels under the streets in down Washington. There are twin box cut and cover tunnels that were built in a similar environment on the Green line F route south of the Southern Avenue (F08) that have the openings in the center partition.
John
WMATA has some challenges ahead of it:
Massive expansion of the system will be difficult without either: adding new track capacity on existing lines; or forfeiting the ability to send lines into the system core. One of the notes in the document states that up to half of Blue Line trains may have to diverted into the Yellow line river crossing in order to accommodate service to Dulles.
I predict that a version of what New York did in the 1960s (adding express tracks to the 6th Av trunk) will have to occur in Washington. It may have to even if some new lines start in places like Bethesda, because transfer opportunities will increase ridership anyway.
And, of course, the final price tag will be more than $6 billion for all projects.
They are also not spending enough on system infrastructure. They need to refocus the plan more on State of Good Repair assignments (Metrorail is now a "mature" system and WMATA must adjust its mindset a little). Expansion then becomes the second priority. Fortunately, ADA compliance was built in to begin with.
With not much in the way of heavy funding for expansion now that the original system is finished, and the brain drain, Metro will be hard-presed to do more than deal with maintaining the system and the highest profile project -- extending out towards Dulles. There's a lot of local enthusiasm for some of the smaller projects like a light rail pilot in Anacostia, but the political climate and NIMBY bickering in Montgomery & Prince George's counties makes it unlikely the "Purple Line" connector between them will get off the ground anytime soon. There's also a lot of grousing going on over in Virginia about running any kind of service across the new Wilson Bridge, and some factions have even tried getting the provisions for rail on the bridge killed to cut the cost of the project. VDOT would love to get the money to cover road maintenance projects instead.
In other words, "SSDD".
The issue of brain drain isn't that horrible, though it is there. Companies like Perini, Slattery, Bechtel and Bombardier have plenty of proven on-board talent to construct new Metrorail lines. Talent can be rented, for a price.
It takes a considerable amount of time to re-create such knowledge, no matter how experienced an engineer is and how detailed the documentation left behind may be. I know this all too well from my own experiences of going into clients and helping them evolve their IT systems...and we're talking about systems that are (for the most part) only a few years old, not decades. Even with 35 years of experience designing and building software and guiding management, I still have to spend a fair amount of time figuring out what was done before, and for what reasons. Engineering is even more difficult (I know that quite well from my parents, who were architects)...quite often, even the most detailed blueprints and specs won't explain why a particular subtlety in the implementation was chosen. It behooves an organization to retain as much first-hand knowledge for as long as it can, so it can be transferred and perpetuated internally. Without it, future efforts will easily become stymied.
I got some news for you. A lot of the so called brain drain is not as old as you might think. There were a lot of people that got out back in the late 1970s and early 1980s that were there from the beginning.
During the public hearing process that lead up to the final approval of the New York Avenue infill station project, I got the opportunity to speak with the WMATA staff engineer assigned to the project. This guy was younger then me. I was in my late teens when WMATA was spending a million dollars a day building the system in the late 1960s and early 1970s. This guy was still in elementary school and did not even know that the project existed. Mind you he may not been there from the beginning and he may have worked on later projects that were done near the latter stages of the completion of the system.
John
WMATA has some challenges ahead of it:
Massive expansion of the system will be difficult without either: adding new track capacity on existing lines; or forfeiting the ability to send lines into the system core. One of the notes in the document states that up to half of Blue Line trains may have to diverted into the Yellow line river crossing in order to accommodate service to Dulles.
I predict that a version of what New York did in the 1960s (adding express tracks to the 6th Av trunk) will have to occur in Washington. It may have to even if some new lines start in places like Bethesda, because transfer opportunities will increase ridership anyway.
And, of course, the final price tag will be more than $6 billion for all projects.
They are also not spending enough on system infrastructure. They need to refocus the plan more on State of Good Repair assignments (Metrorail is now a "mature" system and WMATA must adjust its mindset a little). Expansion then becomes the second priority. Fortunately, ADA compliance was built in to begin with."
You will get no argument from me on this. Scott M. Kozel and I have discussed this very subject at length and made the same conclusions.
This document is dated September 12, 2002. And much of what is in is much older. Only one project in this document call for expansion of rail lines of the existing system. All other projects are lite rail.
A document dated April 1999 was even more ambitious "Transit Service Expansion Plan" (only print version is available).
The Purple line is dead. So don’t expect any talk or planning to go beyond what has already been said or been done.
The DC and Virginia lite rail projects well likely go nowhere because they will not improve throughput or boardings because most of the lite rail will be street running and replace or truncate existing bus service.
Here are the projects from that document.
Expand Fixed Guide way Services
Project
Length (Miles)
Cost (Billions) $
Dulles/Tysons
Tysons, Reston, Herndon, Dulles Airport, Loudoun County
24.0
$1.5
Rock Spring-American Legion Bridge (Purple Line)
5.0
$0.4-0.6
Dunn Loring-American Legion Bridge (Purple Line)
6.9
$0.7-0.8
Woodrow Wilson Bridge Branch Avenue-Alexandria (Purple Line)
7.0
$1.0
Maryland
Blue Line
Largo Extension Largo Towncenter
3.1
$0.4
Bethesda/Silver Spring Bethesda (Purple Line)
4.2
$0.3-1.0
Greenbelt, White, Oak (Purple Line)
13.0
$1.5-2.2
New Carrollton-Silver Spring (Purple Line)
10.0
$0.6-0.75
I 270
Corridor Cities
Shady Grove-Gaithersburg or Clarksburg (LRT)
6.5-14.5
$0.3-0.7
Route 5/301
Branch Avenue/Charles County (LRT)
17.0
$0.35-0.45
District of Columbia
Ft. Lincoln/ Mt. Vernon Square
Via New York Avenue (LRT)
4.0
$0.4
Georgetown- Mt. Vernon Square
Via Downtown (LRT)
2.5
$0.3
Georgia Avenue
Upper Georgia Avenue-Barney Circle (LRT)
6.0
$0.35-0.45
Adams Morgan
Adams Morgan-Minnesota Avenue (LRT)
4.5
$0.25-0.35
Tenleytown-Georgetown- Mt. Vernon Square Red Line Branch to the Convention Center
5.1
$0.9-1.2
Virginia
I 66
Vienna-Centerville
10.0
$0.6
Columbia Pike Pentagon-Bailey's Crossroads (LRT)
4.0
$0.25-0.35
Route 1
Pentagon-Alexandria (LRT)
5.0
$0.3-0.4
I 95 / Lorton
Franconia/ Springfield-Ft. Belvoir-Lorton
5.6
$0.6-0.7
Note:
1) Choice of technology (light rail, heavy rail, etc.) will determine final project cost.
2) Costs are preliminary estimates and subject to refinement through detailed engineering studies.
3) The goal is to provide for at least a 50% expansion of the Metrorail system (50-60 miles) over the next 25 years.
John
wayne
Speaking of this, Sean@Temple kindly posted a link earlier to a website with descriptions of all the never built lines in Philly. Does anyone still have that link? It'd be interesting to map out all the lines to get visual feel of what could have been. It'd be a real downer, too, but still interesting.
Mark
Sean@temple
To another topic i was wondering, why i didn't get any answers, but
i guess only persons, who don't know an answer had read it:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=540356
So don't get impatient when there is no answer.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
We don't have the line statistics so don't get upset; maybe someone will help you :-). It happens to all of us at times and BTW, look at your comment again.
Try writing the MTA a letter. They might actually give you some information. You never know.
The V is a local. Gauging its effectiveness as an express misses the point entirely.
The V carries passengers between the Queens Boulevard local stations and the very popular 53rd Street and 6th Avenue lines. Except at night, Queens Boulevard local passengers never had direct access to those lines before the V was introduced, and all of the proposals I've seen for swapping the F and V only make the situation for local passengers bound for 53rd worse than it's been since the 50's.
1) People going to destinations east of Forest Hills should be on the F (or E). Period.
2) People (setting aside the sky tram) going to Roosevelt Island must be on the F. Period.
3) People going to destinations no further east than Roosevelt-Jackson Heights, incl. local stations, should be on the V, since the F offers no advantage and skips the important Queens Plaza station.
4) People going to local stations east of Jackson Heights could take the F or E first, then transfer, but the easiest ride is on the V, where you can find a seat. Still, they might save a few minutes. So that's a grey area.
Ridership patterns would reflect the V's effectiveness, and atre worth measuring.
The C has shorter trains so the loads which are packed and frequent seem "successful"
The V has an abundance of cars and seats and there are many options for people to choose other than the V. In relation to the F the routes aren't entirely parallel and the F brings many, many people from Jamaica as well as Queens Plaza and Jackson Heights also served by the V and the R
before the R had alternating trains terminating at Whitehall, I believe the new V was an alternate local to divert people down 6th ave with the discontinuation of the rush hour R's.
If I was a local passenger I would still stick to the R since it offers a critical and more simple connection to the 4,5,6 IRT and the stations along Broadway are among the best in terms of accessability and transfers IMO. Esp Times Square and Canal St
I guess that's why most of the #7's passengers choose the N/W at Queensboro plaza for the 59th Street connection. But the 53rd St. connection is still very popular regardless.
Oh.. don't forget.. the R can be delayed by a crossing N/W.
N Bwy
The beauty of the N/W is that the very next stop (Lexington) offers transfer to the 4,5,6 vs the 7 which takes 4 stops to Grand Central
N/W Broadway Lines
Astoria
Where / Why ?
Looked at the 60 St tunnel track map and found no answer.
N/W Broadway Lines
Astoria
>Oh.. don't forget.. the R can be delayed by a crossing N/W
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------<<<<<
I've though of a crossing like at Mytrle/Bway
Did I write this too? Sir! I think you meant thought, not though..
N Bwy
But at that time it was availble as an express at Queens Plaza and served 53st
IMO, across the platform transfers are as good as a one-seat ride
If only the MTA would just allow time for people to run across the platfrom and time connections better during rush hour
Yes! Compare to a transfer like the one between the L and the 1,2 and 3 at 14 Street. But when it comes to a one-seat ride, it doesn't compete.
N Broadway Line
You can't hold a train for even 20 seconds if you want to maintain 30 trains per hour, as they do on the E and F.
You can't time your trains down to the nearest 15 seconds for good connections when New Yorkers hold and block doors during rush hours with the frequency they do.
Whatever works for people its on them, although I woudl think that the V would be the better alternate seeing they don't have to go through Times Sq and Canal St for exapmle. BTW people have 2 choices to go down 6 Av via local so they would hop on he F simply to ride the Queens Blvd express [particularly sensible for going past 71 Av].
Can't satisfy everyone, with an agency like the MTA seeking to simplify operations into a few distinct routes, direct access becomes a luxury.
Its a subway, not a commuter railroad
Its only been around 5 years since the "double-fare" was eliminated for all city and franchise routes, yet many feeder lines are standing room only as well
I.If this happened the E could cross over and terminate at 2nd Avenue, since after the 34 st station, there isn't such a severe crowd on the E train
II. The V could shoot down 6th Avenue along the A/C to Chambers St
If the option to get downtown seemed slower, more people would use the J/Z from points east of Queens Plaza, others closer to Manhattan would use the V which cut right through the middle of Manhattan
It's couldn't be worse. It is most definitely better. Direct access rules!
N Bwy
Partly being the elimination of many key stops,
Some E trains serve 179 st as well
An alternate route to Penn and its environs instead of LIRR, or perhaps too allow E riders in central Queens to go back to LIRR in place of using the E (short version: the E serves Penn, so they wanted it to serve Jamaica Station also?)
This would be one of the minor reasons. I don't know what the real reason is.
I'm sure there's a reason, but I have yet to come across it.
Pre-63rd St tunnel, the F was much more popular than the E, since it served both the very dense E 53rd St area and the very dense 6th Ave area, while the E served E 53rd and the less dense 8th Ave.
Also, Hillside can handle more trains than Archer because of the badly designed terminus at Archer.
Also Hillside probably has more customers because more buses terminate there, though this may in part be due to the previous issue.
So pre-63rd St tunnel, it made good sense to connect the more frequent Hillside service to the more frequent 6th Ave service. Now that 63rd is there and they've made 6th Ave and 8th Ave equal in service, the only reason to retain the same pattern is to avoid confusing the geese and getting another round of bad publicity in the papers.
It could be the same result on your ?, if not possibly less tph.
If they knew that the Archer Av line wasn't going any further east then maybe it should of been designed as a loop. I don't understand how such relatively new infrastructure be designed to turn trains rather slowly.
Ironically, mainline environmental orgnaizations like the MRDC have realized that total NIMBYmania lacks credibility, and they have been supporting things like more gas fired plants in New York City. But they are drowned out by those using their methods to block those as well, perhaps deservedly getting tarred with the same brush.
For years, NIMBYs fought to keep commercial and residential redevelopment out of NYC's declining industrial areas. We need to preserve these areas for industry! they said. Then some industry decided it was interested -- the power industry. It turns out what those people wanted was either parkland reserved for themselves that others paid for, or abandoned land.
There's a big reason why fuel cells haven't caught on big yet - they're amazingly expensive and don't work well.
Oh yes, and hydrogen isn't exactly readilly available.
UTC Fuel Cells (Or is it UTC Power Systems now?) did a few 20 Mw FC plants overseas. They last about 2 years before needing major rapairs. None are running today.
We had the answer on long Island, it was called Shoreham. There's never been a serious accident with a GE BWR reactor, and it's a very proven design. Thanks to that bonehead Kessel, who nobody got to vote for, LI's power grid is screwed for the foreseable future...
Designed by by Stone and Webster - 'nuff said.
BTW, there's only been two serious accidents involving PWRs in the US (Brown's Ferry and Three Mile Island), and neither posed any environmental consequences here. Since then, both plants have broken records for reliability, generating capacity and availability.
Incidentally, the fact that Perry shut down during this outage is testament to the reliability of its safety systems. It did exactly what it was supposed to do.
Had Shoreham been in operation, it could have "held" Long Island, and maybe even kept electric train service and signals going into Jamaica (maybe...)
See my post.
Maybe it would have been worse.
A more in context NIMBY issue ... this was a failure of transmission (and those nuclear plants), and procedure, not capacity. The Cross Sound Cable is now running and will be at least until September 1. Now we can see whether it really bothers Charlie the Tuna (or Larry the Lobster) or not, and how much, instead of guessing with posturings in court.
The grid is NOT "antiquated" ... there's just not enough WIRE and POLES for the demand.
Or perhaps too much demand. Back in 1999 and 2000, when energy was last in the news, my wife ordered a floor lamp with a dimmer switch from Pottery Barn. Now usually at the bottom of dimmer switch there is a "click" that turns the thing off. This one had no click -- it could be turned down but not off.
So I called Pottery Barn and was referred to an electrical engineer. At first he said I must be mistake, or it must be defective. So he went down to the warehouse, and then he called me back and told me all Pottery Barn lamps are designed to be turned down but not off. I guess they saved half a cent per lamp from some supplier in China, straight to the bottom line. He said it wouldn;t make much difference. I shipped the lamp back.
As for AC, we went out to Tulsa to visit relatives there. It was over 100 degrees every day. We were able to go out, walk around, function. All the Tulsans were dying. Why? We don't have AC, and are used to being outside in summer, so our bodies were aclimated. Everyone in Tulsa holes up from June to September, so they melt if it goes over 80.
You think we've got global warming now. Wait until everyone in the countries where they really need AC gets it.
When I saw that they lit up those gawdy neons in Times Square, we ran the AC with no pangs of guilt. :)
The PROBLEM for NYC though is that their demand has exceeded their generation capacity for going on 20 years now. After WTC and having Shrub as our economic leader and inspiration, demand is about 60% of what it was prior down there. If New York City DOES come back economically, they're in for a WORLD of hurt with so few lines to feed them electrons from our fully air conditioned electron factories up here.
I think it's a national, perhaps global problem. Back at City Planning in the late 1990s, I was asked to predict the cause of the next recession. I predicted an energy crisis. A guess I came of age in the 1970s.
If solar electric cells get a little more powerful, and I can cut my consumption a little more, maybe I can get off the grid.
Coal and nuclear REMAINS about the only real world ... and Nat gas is about to birth a HELL of a surprise on the unsuspecting. New York's in BAD shape since so many power plants in this state have removed their coal hoppers and converted to sole-source Natgas. Whooops. :(
We still powered our schools on the DC we generated, and even later when we converted to AC generation, we only used the "highlines" at night when we shut down our own generators.
We still have many power tools around the abbey that have their DC motors in place to turn the tool, but which in fact are disconnected and are in turn turned by an AC motor mounted on top of them. Very Quaint it is.
Anyway, we are no longer in the generating business, and of our three coal boilers one was removed and the other two converted to gas/oil burning. A smaller gas boiler was brought in to provide hot water and laundry steam in the summer, but then things changed again, and we put coal back in the No2 boiler, and that runs year round. Saves us about $200 a day on our heating bills.
Elias
It might also be a matter of humidity. I would imagine that Tulsa is somewhat drier than New York. Being used to New York's summer humidity, you might have found the drier Tulsa weather tolerable despite the high temperatures. Tulsa natives, on the other hand, aren't as used to humidity and therefore found the hot but dry air oppressive.
Something like this happened to me in Phoenix last year. Even though it was well over 100 most days, I was able to function reasonably well outside because it was very dry.
After the ore is mined, gaseous diffusion is used to bring the degree of U-235 enrichment up to 3%.
Even at this level, you need far more coal to produce the same number of BTU (British Thermal Unitss - the energy needed to bring one pound of water up one degree F.)
So we're extracting 3% of the available energy from a pound of uranium ore. Reprocessing can increase that, and there is an experimental process that can do that without going to the plutonium pathway.
Fossl and muclear plants, at their best efficiency, get 33%=35% conversion (thermal energy to useful electric output). Solar is far behind there, and is further physically limited to initial recovery at the earth's surface of a kilowatt per square meter.
That isn't the real issue. Both Long Island and Connecticut are relatively wealthy places, where the majority of residents believe the garbage should be depositied elsewhere. Power plants are always ugly and sometimes scary, rationally or not. Same with power transmission.
Long Island wants the Cross Sound cable to take power from Connecticut because Connecticut ended up with a nuclear power plant and Long Island did not. Let's say Shoreham had been built, and Connecticut was interested in taking power from Long Island, at a modest risk to Long Island's power reliability, in order to avoid more power plants. I'd bet the concern for Charlie the Tuna would be on a different coast.
Still there is another issue, and one that affects NYC. You need a source of energy to build a power plant. Here in NY, there would probably be enough support, barely, for more gas fired plants, but you have to get the gas here, and the new pipeline is blocked. Long Island is in a similar situation.
While NYC garbage is handled within the city limits, of course.
1. You're wrong. People do protest, but it's usually private dumps who collect the $$$.
2. Of course you don't hear about other people's complaints in New York.
I'm just pointing out the objection of people in Connecticut -- they see the Cross Sound line as a way for Long Island to use its power plants rather than site its own, at a time when local opposition has made power plants scarce.
As for NYC garbage, a more reasonable criticism is the city's inability to site transfer stations to move the garbage out by barge or rail rather than truck. A woman down the block works for a consultant who worked on the city's second to most recent waste management plan. I said that the terrible "temporary" situation we have now -- trucks driving hundreds of miles all over the place -- would likely end up being semi-permanent after local pols stymie any alternative. She said that was impossible.
As to the garbage, you used an unfortunate simile. This is the City whose Mayor Giuliani said that VA should be glad to take New York's garbage because New York gives the world culture. New York arrogance in a nutshell.
My town of Babylon spent a fortune to convert its in-town (not a neighbor's border) landfill, build and utilize an in-town trash recycling plant, and recycle.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
And remember I was responding to Larry's simile: "Both Long Island and Connecticut are relatively wealthy places, where the majority of residents believe the garbage should be depositied elsewhere."
It was a rather unfortunate choice of words in a city which ships its excess out, and takes its water from other counties as its birthright.
And what about the Pennsylvanians? I don't remember anybody pointing a gun to their heads. They freely chose to take it. Good for them.
"It was a rather unfortunate choice of words in a city which ships its excess out, and takes its water from other counties as its birthright. "
It's not "other counties' water" Water is a precious shared resource. It's those counties which often allow the water to be polluted, for land to be stripped irresponsibly.
New York City has an outstanding record of paying for other counties to safeguard land and water. And those counties have a great record for - corruption, pollution, rape and pillage. It's not theirs to do that with.
In Massachusetts, if it weren't for the City of Boston's efforts to police the reservoirs in rural Mass., everybody might as well start drinking directly from their toilet bowls.
Stop defending the hypocrites, Paul. They don't deserve it.
New York City has an outstanding record of paying for other counties to safeguard land and water. And those counties have a great record for - corruption, pollution, rape and pillage. It's not theirs to do that with.
Ha! From the city whose natural environment is buried under concrete and pollution, and whose ground water is undrinkable!
Of course water "is a precious shared resource" to someone who doesn't have it and is on the receiving end.
You hang on to a lot of ignorant nonsense, don't you?
Perhaps a little education would be in order for you: NYC is number 1 in acres of parkland per capita in the US; its drinking water supply is the safest in the US (and even wins taste tests compared with other cities and even bottled water); it is the most energy-efficient due to its density and the subway.
Now, it's an old city, so there's lots of concrete and yes, there are problems with ground water.
Would you trust the ground water in New Jersey's suburban sprawls? Not for long...
If it weren't for efforts to buy and secure watershed upstate, nobody would be able to drink the water anymore - not NYC residents, or anyone else. Would that make you happy?
You hang on to a lot of ignorant nonsense, don't you?
New York ground water is drinkable? You do know what ground water is, don't you? Hint: It's not the stuff New York gets from upstate. Why doesn't the city drink it then, instead of pouring it into the Flatbush Avenue station of the IRT?
Perhaps a little education would be in order for you: NYC is number 1 in acres of parkland per capita in the US
I probably could use some education, but I prefer to get it from someone who doesn't seem to make up "facts" as he goes along.
City, Park/Open Space (Acres) per 1,000 Residents.
Minneapolis 14.9
San Diego 29.5
Portland, Ore. 24.6
Cincinnati 22.3
Washington, DC 13.1
Arlington, Tex. 12.0
Seattle 11.0
Denver 10.2
St. Louis 9.7
Oakland 9.3
Boston 8.3
Toledo 8.3
Pittsburgh 8.2
Los Angeles 8.1
Baltimore 7.8
San Francisco 7.6
Philadelphia 7.0
San Jose 6.8
Las Vegas 6.3
New York 6.2
Long Beach 6.2
Detroit 6.2
Cleveland 6.0
Sacramento 4.9
Chicago 4.0
Miami 3.7
Fresno 2.7
Now I'll admit I had to take off my socks and shoes to count that high, but out of 27 "High-" and "Intermediate-High-Density Cities" New York is tied for 20 out of 27. So I guess it comes down to a definition of "number 1."
OTOH, New York is 49th of the 55 largest cities in spending on parks per resident.
If it weren't for efforts to buy and secure watershed upstate, nobody would be able to drink the water anymore - not NYC residents, or anyone else. Would that make you happy?
Where do you get that "nobody would be able to drink stuff?" Nobody gets "NYC" water but people in NYC and some upstate communities who got it contractually for the city to be able to take it in the first place.
In Nassau and Suffolk we drink what's in the ground or buy bottled.
The statistic I should have said was "Per total acreage."
New York has > 50,000 acres of parkland for 336 square miles inside of city limits. This is far higher than any other city (certainly all the cities you listed).
Some cityes have pushed their boundries way out into the country. The still gots sheeps and cows!
But NYC does have good parks and open areas. Visitors from Colorado came to Brooklyn and were amazed on how green everything was.
NYC long ago purchased the upstate watersheds from whence its waters come.
BTW: Just Where Is the LARGEST park in the continential United States?
: ) Elias
Which shows that the city's leadership was able to plan rather than merely react. Today, of course, "planning" is a forgotten skill.
Not all of it. Not nearly enough of it. That's why the feds are forcing the city to build a filtration plant in the Bronx.
I have heard that the largest urban park (not like Adirondack State Park, which is not the same thing) is Fairmount Park in Philadelphia, but Fairmount is not all continguous, so I don't know whether the biggest part qualifies.
AFAIK, Fairmount was the only park that had its own trolley line.
They are gems.
When I would visit my in-laws in the near Philly suburbs, I used to take 60th Street (seeing the 10 and 15 lines), then Cobbs Creek Parkway beside the Park to get to Elmwood, crossing a total of 5 trolley lines, IIRC.
Think of a slumlord of garbage.
By the way, this is a bulletin board, if you want rules of evidence, we're going to need a judge, jury and signed depositions.
Ah well, the garbage has to go somewhere. You can recycle paper and cardboard (recall the cool deal the Sierra Club arranged in the Bronx), wire hangers from dry cleaners, and aluminum cans. Steel recycles, though not every recycler takes it. Glass? Big problem. No market for it frequently. Plastic recycles, but try finding a place to take it.
My wife and I produce one garbage bag per week. We also take car loads of paper and cardboard monthly to the recycler (Smurfit Stone Container Corp) - next time you see filler for cardboard boxes, or the hamburger wrapper at McDonald's, you know where it came from). We try to do our part.
A lot of our organic garbage either ends up in the dogs or in our compost heap where it makes the most beautiful soil you ever saw. We had a problem first with one of the dogs snacking there (you wouldn't think dogs would eat some things, but they will), and then cats, so we try to always cover new garbage with fresh soil.
Newspapers, most cardboard, cans and bottles are collected weekly by the village.
Deposit bottles go to one of the local people who collect them to earn the money, when possible. Other plastic and batteries go to a recycling point at the highway department.
Every six months we can take obnoxious wastes, like old insecticide and such to a toxic collection day. You bring it in and hand to guys in hazmat suits (really).
And since we don't have that good NYC water, our cooler uses deposit water bottles we get at Costco.
So the garbage men get a mini-vacation at our house.
Many of the residents of Pennyslvania. The trucks are poorly maintained, operated pooly, by poorly traind operators, prone to accidents and speeding.
Pennsylvaina has (had?) a targeted enforcemnt zone on I-80, stopping EVERY truck headed west. And the tickets written agianst these garbage trucks skewed the national statistics for that year by a huge number.
Wheeling West Virginia has a GOOD garbage system. The local route trucks bring it to a central processing facility where it is loaded into special built hopper cars, and trains pull them to the land fill (still within their own county) where they are unloade and bulldozed into the places where they are wanted.
Elias
That's a problem that Pennsylvania residents should take up with their elected officials. It is of no concern (and should be of no concern) to two parties engaging in legitimate business practices like buying and selling.
If the trucks are being ticketed, then what's the problem? Are the fines not great enough to act as a disincentive?
If that were the worst embarassment of his term, we would have been fortunate.
40 years (extended) is a good lifetime for a plant that then becomes an albatross?
You're fabricating stuff not in evidence.
License renewal goes to 40 years, but a new core can extend the building life to 80+.
Read before posting Paul.
True for the former, false for the latter. Nuclear units inside the transmission failure zones shut down AS DESIGNED TO. Units outside the transmission failure zone were a part of the available generating capacity.
My reference to Shoreham was strictly intended to show that another 1,000 MW on Long Island inside a local grid would have been helpful.
Circular argument.
"Phrasemaker to the dozens."
Three Mile Island was about as bad as it gets for an accident on one.
http://www.libraries.psu.edu/tmi/tmimov.htm
Is a BIG download - 50 megs, but has a cleanup movie, with pictures of the core, the cleanup, and a few models of what the junk looked like.
The real problem is that the fuel will melt in midair, because it's still so reactive and self heating. Some new designs try to avoid that, the PBMR in particular. Also, the trend is towards lower power densities again - that makes things easier.
Even still, with the core reflooded, TMI quickly returned to a safe state, and sat like that until it was cleaned up in the mid 80's. I believe the final decomissioning is expected to be not much more complicated than a regular one.
The French do such a nice job - they have brought 1400 MW plants on line. Can you imagine the efficiency and capacity an outstanding well run plant like St. Lucie or Oconee could bring if the two domes pumped out 3,000 megawatts (electric)instead of just 2,000 or less...
I say we add another new design unit to Indian Point, to Salem and to Robert Ginna and hook them together in a local grid, so they can isolate themselves and keep running instead of having to trip off-line.
BTW, if you're ever in Idaho, visit EBR-I, which is open for free tours, and is quite interesting (you actually can look into the where the reactor core is :) They have the HTRE reactors (aircraft nuclear program testbeds) out in the parking lot - very spooky.
Your suggestion about the Idaho plant is a good one.
I learned how to run UCLA's Argonaut reactor as an undergrad. Built by AMF, a graphite design able to generate enough electricity to run a toaster. A Commodore-64 was used to track neutron flux. Used by physics, nuclear engineering, geology and gemology students (watch those stones change colors...ever see an emerald that wasn't green - now you can).
Oceanography became popular in the mid-1980s (eveybody wanted to be Jacque Cousteau), and the Argonaut was expensive to maintain, so the reactor was eventually removed and the whole space was turned over to a marine sciences institute.
BTW, best fishing in Southern California is off the plants cooling pipe discharge (at least, it was, prior to 9/11 fears).
Ever hear of water? One could use the hydrogen fuel cell motor to electrolyze hydrogen out of water for its fuel, and thus perpetuate the cycle…
"Plug Power" is in the neighborhood here - they've got some wonderous stuff, but they're STILL playing with propane reactions. Funny how there's so many ENERGY companies around here - must be the remnants of GE Turbines in Schenectady (a smoking crater now, all went to Georgia so we're all buying Siemens now [which rotates in the OTHER direction]). They're playing with hydrides, and it looks promising. The H2O recombination thing ain't been working as well as it did for NASA. After all, NASA had the ability to do lots of things on MICROwatts for tots, not so America.
As someone who came to maturity in the 60's, it's sad that all the promises of geothermal, solar, wind, you name it STILL hasn't panned out. :(
That's a cop-out, and very dishonest. It smears the people who are trying very hard to develop these technologies. They don't need bullshit excuses. They need honest appraisals, and you don't have any. Your attitude hurts your own cause and credibility.
When the technology advances enough to become practical, there will be a ready and receptive audience.
I love some of the projects that have been accomplished. Desert One was a Southern California Edison project - computer controlled mirrors rotating to focus light on a water tower. Water flashed to steam, and drove a turbine. Capacity at peak was one megawatt, and at one time they were trying to build a ten megawatt version.
That's great stuff, but noy ready for prime time. Keep trying.
That's a cop-out, and very dishonest
I beg your pardon; it is the most honest appraisal of the situation at present. If you honestly believe that the oil lobbyists would embrace the technology as opposed to continuing to peddle petrochemical and coal-based power, then you truly have your head in the sand. How dare you.
It smears the people who are trying very hard to develop these technologies
What utter nonsense you spew! It casts no aspersions on them at all. Your obfuscations are full of gaping holes; I suggest that you quit while you are ahead. Can any technology be perfected without adequate funding, might I ask???
They don't need bullshit excuses. They need honest appraisals, and you don't have any
No BS here. What gets funded gets perfected. Remember National City Lines? Replacing one particular transportation technology with an inferior one? Yes, it is comparable. You hypnotize the right politicians, and your agenda gets pushed through—simple as that.
Your attitude hurts your own cause and credibility
My credibility?!?!? You are the one who used profanity! That sends your argument—and credibility—right to the recycle bin!! ROTFLMAO!!!
When the technology advances enough to become practical, there will be a ready and receptive audience. I love some of the projects that have been accomplished. Desert One was a Southern California Edison project - computer controlled mirrors rotating to focus light on a water tower. Water flashed to steam, and drove a turbine. Capacity at peak was one megawatt, and at one time they were trying to build a ten megawatt version
You are forgetting about that word Funding yet again. Technologies grow by leaps and bounds with adequate amounts of it, you know. Surely you have not forgotten??
That's great stuff, but noy ready for prime time. Keep trying
And keep using profanity. It sure is convincing.
You can keep having paranoid hallucinations about evil oil lobbyists who pop out of every corner to keep non-oil projects bottled up, or you can find out who funds what, and why. Kleiner Perkins Caufield and Byers is ahuge venture capital firm. It isn't controlled by oil lobbyists. What would they have to say about solar technologies? Look them up and find out.
"What utter nonsense you spew! It casts no aspersions on them at all."
When you look at anything uncritically and refuse to see its failings, then you have no chance of actually improving it. It's like getting only 50% of the questions right on a test and then not counting the ones you got wrong, and awarding yourself an A+.
"No BS here. What gets funded gets perfected. Remember National City Lines? Replacing one particular transportation technology with an inferior one? "
But the pendulum had already swung back to transit by the mid 1960s. Transit lines sprouted in several cities and even New York managed to build extra tracks under 6th Av. The same is not true for solar power, because there was little to build on.
"You are forgetting about that word Funding yet again. Technologies grow by leaps and bounds with adequate amounts of it, you know."
Not every technology. Edison funded Solar One and a successor, and discovered that they were pouring money into a rathole. I'm a physician, and I want to see cures for cancer and gene therapy take off. Billions of dollars later, we've made a little progress, but cure rates for many cancers are still exactly what they were 50 years ago.
Do yourself a favor and do a lot more reading and studying. The more effort you put into educating yourself, and the less you put into looking for conspiracies everywhere, the more savvy you'll be about science and the world.
Where's the lost energy going to come from? :)
(This is why the so called 'hydrogen economy' is a scam. It doesn't decrese dependance on anything, just moves it around. Same as electric cars, just new fancy name)
I recognize that issue. You have to factor in the pollution at every point along the line, not just where the power is used.
However, if hydrogen is extracted from hydrocarbons in petrochemical plants, the emissions should be easier to reduce and control than burning them in millions of little engines.
And if fuel cells are more efficient than energy sources that rely on combustion, we may end up well ahead. We can at least hope so.
In the end, however, we either need fewer people than the so-called Third World is breeding, or less energy used per person than the developed countries are using.
This blackout highlighted a new problem with nuclear--that nuclear plants shut down rapidly (for safety) when there's a problem, then may takj longer to bring back up. Don't think terrorists haven't noticed. Consider this scenario right after the first problems:
4:11 P.M. The Perry Unit 1 nuclear reactor in Perry, Ohio, shuts down after losing power.
4:11 P.M. The FitzPatrick nuclear reactor in Oswego, N.Y., shuts down after losing power.
4:12 P.M. The Bruce Nuclear station in Ontario, Canada, shuts down after losing power.
4:12 P.M. Rochester Gas & Electric's Ginna nuclear plant near Rochester, N.Y., shuts down after losing power.
4:12 P.M. Nine Mile Point nuclear reactor near Oswego, N.Y., shuts down after losing power.
4:15 P.M. FirstEnergy's Sammis-Star 345-kilovolt line, in northeast Ohio, trips and reconnects a second time.
4:16 P.M. Oyster Creek nuclear plant in Forked River, N.J., shuts down because of power fluctuations on the grid.
4:17 P.M. The Enrico Fermi Nuclear plant near Detroit shuts down after losing power.
4:17-4:21 P.M. Power transmission lines in Michigan trip.
4:25 P.M. Indian Point nuclear power plants 2 and 3 in Buchanan, N.Y., shut down after losing power.
Nuclear dominos.
I was around in the era when nuclear power became a big goal. Part of the play was to make nuclear stuff seem not so scary. "Atoms for Peace" we called it. Electricity doesn't care what it's made of--coal, gas, oil--you don't even have to get as exotic as sun, wind and hamsters. Truth is, the U.S. stands on a mountain of coal.
If we spent as much money on making coal a viable, safe and clean fuel as we have on trying to make nuclear safe, maybe we'd have less worries right now.
These are not facts. They are myths. Fact: Nuclear plants started with a license life of 20 years and many are being extended to 40. In fact, plants built in the last 20 years could continue running with new cores.Fossil plants of the same age don't perform nearly as well.
Fact: Reprocessing spent fuel is a very sophisticated process and only a few countries do it. Granted, North Korea and Iran have the potential for becoming nuclear powerrs, but the use of the technology here has no bearing on that.
It's not like someone can walk off with one.
Terrorism? What could they do? Nuclear containments are built far far beyond what they'll ever encounter. They're designed to withstand direct hits from jetliners, and on top of that, the reactor vessel itself has a 'missle shield' above it - a few feet of reinforced concrete. And the vessel itself is 8+ inch thick steel with inch thick stainless on the inside.
A plane made out of paper thin aluminum won't do much.
Bomb? The hydrogen 'bump' at Three Mile Island was equivelent to a few bombs going off in the containment - not even a hint of serious dammage was done.
Right now, the NRC is looking to extend the lives of a few plants into the 40 year realm. Naturally, they get upgraded over the years.
Yes, nukes shut when the load is rejected. All power plants do this. It's the nature of steam turbine power plants. And they all take time to restart.
Coal a clean safe fuel? Forget it. Even with so called 'scrubbers' and controls, they're still amazingly dirty.
And remember, a coal plant sends more energy up it's stack in the form of useable uranium than is rleased burning the coal. And on average, a coal plant's radioactive emissions are 100 times that of a like sized nuke. If a coal plants were regulated as tightly as nuclear plants are, they'd all be shut down immediately.
The beauty of the nuclear waste 'problem' is that if you do nothing, it does in fact go away. After 100 - 200 years, the fuel is only somewhat more radioactive than the ore that was mined to make it. Keeping such assemblies in dry, safeguarded storage for that long is a trivial engineering problem.
Nuclear fuel needs to be underwater for 10 years after use, to protect workers and keep it cool. After that, it can (and is) stored in thick concrete containers that use convection cooling. I believe CT Yankee's fuel (still all on site) will be handled this way.
I wish people wouldn't crap in their pants when they hear "muclear," and then get killed by the other things they ignored.
I understand why they do, but I don't have to like it.
You're probably right. But then I remember that the WTC was designed to handle the impact of a 707 jetliner, which isn't much smaller than a 767.
Not an appropriate comparison at all. It's hard to realize that if you've never visited a plant and aren't familiar with its engineering. Your comment reflects a common misinterpretation of what the Port Authority really did.
Do remember that it was the fire, mostly office furniture and paper, not even JP-5 (which burned off pretty quickly, something had to make that massive fireball) that knocked down the WTC. Thermal deformation of the bolts holding the floors to the outside structure is finally what caused the tower to collapse.
I saw something, either on TLC or Nova that said that 3/4" bigger blots or earthquake proofing measures would have allowed the structure to stand for as many as 4 or 5 hours longer, and perhaps at least the North Tower would have survived. Of course the PA took all sorts of cost-cutting measures when building the WTC, the original plans called for concrete around the fire ladders, but the PA went with drywall, which was blown off the stairs when the planes hit, exposing would be escapees to the fire ravaging the affected floors. If concrete had been used, hundreds of lives could have been saved from above the hits.
Since there is virtually nothing to burn on a power plant containment building, so long as it can take the dynamic force of a 767 or so sized airliner, we should be relatively safe.
That's right, but the WTC designers forgot to take something into account - when airplanes crash, they tend to burn!
A *LOT* had been removed on the fire floors - the price, "assuaging of liberal concerns" ... at the cost of HOW MANY? :(
You're right, I'm sure. Not all bad consequences can be eliminated during the design process. However, I would say that the WTC designers' mistake as to the emergency-stairwell location can't simply be dismissed as their one mistake; it was a mistake that cost well over 1,000 lives.
Coal-fired plants can be built in hell, I don't want them in my backyard. Oil is borderline, gas is can be built down the block for all I care. I'd prefer a gas turbine to residential rezoning in that area.
You'll be interested to know that the issue of mercury in fish (the EPA doesn't want you to eat swordfish or tuna more than once per week and no more than 12 oz) is tied to coal-fired power plants. Mercury in the oceans (which concentrates in large ocean fish) comes fromk volcanic activity first, then coal-fired power plants a close second. Mercury poisoning causes death, nervous system impairment, retardation in babies...
The bad health effects of rejecting nuclear electricity...
URL at http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/17/nyregion/17GRID.html?hp
Bill "Newkirk"
The article describes the events which triggered the blackout. It does not explain why it was not properly isolated. I have to return to the '65 blackout, which spread in the same way. They were supposed to have learned from that experience.
Microsoft has also had an ABYSMAL record lately with their security bandaids where the patches have broken more things than they've cured. I still wonder whether the RPC/DCOM patches were APPLIED, and if so, did they cripple the software? I'm in the software business now and every time Microsoft does a patch, the support side in our house lights up like a bulb on a Christmas tree as WE get blamed for Microsoft's side effects. I guess that's because we actually PROVIDE support when required unlike the kids out in Redmond.
"Internet Integration into the operating system" has LONG been an issue with me, and in 1997 I testified before the Federal Trade Commission about just how serious this "integration" would turn out to be:
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/privacy/wkshp97/comments2/nsclean.htm
If you ignore my testimony about the privacy issues which were the reason I was summoned and go all the way down to the very end of the testimony, you'll see what I had predicted ... :(
So I *agree* with your observation that AS A WHOLE SYSTEM, "*nix" has problems. But I VEHEMENTLY disagree with you on a basis of security, which critical infrastructure REQUIRES ... here I go, right back to my arguments before the PSC, FERC, and others ...
The heart of a *NIX OS is the kernel - same for Windows - this performs the basic IO, CPU scheduling and operation of the computer. The *NIX _KERNEL_ is extremely powerful and very basic. It's JUST a traffic cop for bits - that's all it does. In the world of Billy, the damned KERNEL loads up the winsock and is available DIRECTLY (without getting too esoteric, user apps run in Ring 3 which is isolated, but it's *SO* easy to bust right through into the kernel's Ring zero which is NOT protected - viruses and worms invade it constantly). IMPOSSIBLE in *NIX. Now prior to "browser/OS integration" in Windows, this was NOT the case. THAT'S the crux of all my whining about Windows - they did something completely unnecessary and dangerous to make it "COOL." BAD choice. :(
*NIX, even if it's considered obsolete because it's 30 years old provides a RIGOROUSLY secure kernel. Windows made it porous. *NIX consists of literally thousands of little functions and utilities which comprise the operating SYSTEM. Somewhat the same for Windows with a MAJOR downside. In *NIX, you can CHOOSE which utilities are permitted to run. In Windows, if you start up a network connection, it may also start up a hidden server, a printer and things you might not expect (and CANNOT disable without disabling the whole computer in shutting some of these off) ... in *NIX, the problem is that you need to ensure that ONLY those things you need are running and turn off everything you don't need. Easy as pie to do. Not so in Windows.
More significantly though, EVERY *NIX vendor will provide source code and a compiler. This means that if you, the admin of a critical site don't like something, you can CHANGE it. You can MAKE it more secure if need be. Microsoft REFUSES to publish its source code, and you CANNOT fix it if there's a security hole or risk. This makes Windows inherently dangerous for any mission critical application on its face.
But ultimately, it all comes down to the quality of whoever's taking care of the infrastructure. Windows COULD have been as secure as *NIX. Microsoft however chose poorly. There's many other nuances and details to all of this of course, but that's the crux of it.
SUBTALK ON TOPIC:
MTA's about to go down the shiny path of Win2000 running CBTC. Agggh. :(
An R44SI Entering Atlantic Going North
Looking at the Atlantic Northbound Platform from a radical Angle
An Overview of Atlantic From the Crossover
A Pic of the Entire Northbound Atlantic Platform
Looking at the Atlantic Platforms to the North
A Picture of the Entire Southbound from a Unique Vantage Point
I can't seem to shake that possibility off my head after looking at the picture itself. Is the SIR at grade anyway in the system? Remember, this is coming from someone who hasn't dared traverse the SIR...yet! :)
The demand of the fans going inbound is not greater than those trying to go out to Queens. Express service patterns do not change when the Mets play no matter what time or what day of the week it is.
In fact plans are in the works to open a stop on metro-North for Yankee stadium
The 7 has one express track, which flows in peak direction, If it had a second, riders would simply fill less crowded trains
The decision to evacuate the terminal was made to avoid overcrowding once the rush hour crowds statred to arrive. There was also a real danger that civilians could wander off into one of the tunnels and get lost and possibly be overcome by the heat. Our fire brigade was kept busy throughout the night both with employees and civilians being overcome with the heat. I have lived in New York all my life and hot weather in August is nothing new but it seems that Thursday was a scorcher even by August standards.
One of the first things that the railroad did was to take a census of crew members actually in the terminal to find out how many train crews would be available once service was resumed. Many of our rush hour crews were still enroute to GCT when the blackout hit. Four trains were stuck in the tunnel itself. Two between 59 Street and 96 Street on two different tracks, one on Track F, the middle lead track for the lower level and another on ladder M. The passengers on these were evacuated.
There were literally thousands of people out side the terminal waiting for the resumption of service. Railroad personel began escorting them in small groups into the terminal to use the restrooms. Ten at a time for the upper level restrooms in the Stationmaster's Office and about fifteen at a time down to the recently opened restrooms on the lower level. This was done from one the entrances in the former Vanderbilt Avenue taxi stand. The owner of Micheal Jordan's Restaurant began distributing food and ice cream to the waiting commuters and also supplied cold water to the railroad people.
At about 11pm there was some hope that power would be restored and the emergency generators were turned on provided some lighting but at no where near full power. Station personel informed waiting commuters that even when the lights
did come back on it would still be about one hour before we could resume service. They did not want a mad rush to the doors as soon as the place lit up. Well the lights did not come back on but about 3am we did get AC Power for the switches and signals but no DC power for the tracks and no lights so it was decided to resume outbound service using diesel-powered trains. Not the most desirable alternative since running the engines on diesel power with no exhaust fans would cause a buildup of fumes but under the circumstances it could be toloerated to a certain degrees.
Three train sets of Bombardier Shoreliner equiptment were made ready.
One each for the Harlem, Hudson and New Haven Lines. Each train was to make all local stops. The Hudson Line train would go first making all stops to Croton where there would be a connecting train to Poughkeesie. We set up some emergency lights on the three platforms and had personnel with flashlights to direct passengers to the right trains. We started loading at 320AM and the first train moved at 340am. The Hudson Line train left off of track 37 and the Harlem Line train off of track 34. The order was Hudson first, Harlem, second and New Haven,third. It was slow going through the tunnel but at least we were moving. Things were also slow at Mott Haven Junction but and I belive that they may have been cranking switches by hand and flagging the trains through. We passed at least four more sets of Bomb equiptment just north of MO lite up with crews and ready to run into GCT and pick up passengers. The trip to Croton
took two hours. IN part this was due to lack of signals in some areas and slow accleration of the diesels. I finally made it to Beacon at 620AM. Only about twelve hours later than usual.
The emphasis was then to get people home and not to attempt to run any kind of a regular
inbound schedule on Friday as our train crews need rest also.
I'll be back at work tomorrow and will post more information.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry, RedburdR33
Bill "Newkirk"
Robert
The signal system was old and needed to be upgraded; among other things there was not automatic safety devices to prevent collisions. A cab-signalled system was chosen. The entire communication system is also being replaced, with a new building at St. George.
The rehab has been criticized by some as too expensive given the ridership and headways on the line. Among other things, it is good enough to allow freight service to be resumed if the North Shore branch is rebuilt. When its over, however, the line should have a quality system for years to come.
The switches in the St. George terminal are not being replaced at this time. A subsequent project will replace them.
BTW thw B&O CPL's currently on the line are not original. The old high signals were replaced with dwarfs on sticks some time ago.
Anyway, do you know if the new system will be cab signals with or without wayside signals...and how to they plan to retrofit the R-44's?
Robert
Robert
If you board the train you have to pay the fare with the surcharge on board and hope you remember to show it the next day
But the buses were jam packed, anyway, and there was no room for most people who tried to board.
If they applied this same logic, the weekly ticket would have had no value by the time Thursday night rolled around. (Even if you didn't add in the weekends, the weekly ticket and the cost of 7 peak one-ways are about the same).
CG
the secret to life is the IRA-1040
Does anyone know whether the electrical outlets on the AE are AC outlets or do they require AC adapters?
Thanks for any help.
CG
CG
I assume we are not including service yards and yard leads here, nor the railway in Brooklyn which accepts new subway cars delivered by barge and freight railroad.
Btw, what do you mean by transfers adding onto mileage?
We do not. :(
It is very hot and uncomfortable, and NO A/C... But then it is only a dozen days or so out of the year, so it really doesn't pay.
It is pretty tough on one of my patients, but I can stick a room air conditioner in his room, eventhough he always complains that it is too cold, we can see that his body rebells against the heat just like the rest of us.
You take it easy a few days, and then the temps will eventually go back below freezing, where it belongs. : )
Elias
When the Manny B service resumes next year the B from 205/Concourse to C.I. via the West End will be up in the top five and no doubt rival the previous D train routes from Bronx to Brooklyn - via the Culver (pre-1967) and then via the Brighton (post-1967). In each case, about 28 miles from 205th Street to Coney Island.
Robert
Robert
In all seriousness, you could go a long way without power - woulda been handy (aside from all those risen trips) last Thursday.
Oh yeah. Like a normal woman on the street is going to know THAT.
If that type of logic were to be implemented in a vice-versa scenario, then you should of course know the differences between the fashion designs of Betsey Johnson & Vera Wang.
Right, I also do not know.
Except of course, that it *is* a National Railroad, and is FULLY FUNDED!
Elias
You all should know my response.
Jimmy
Jimmy
My vote is 71/Continental Ave on Queens Blvd. All catagories.
Knish Nosh
White Castle (by the expressway)
Lenny's Pizza
Pastrami King (near Van Wyck)
Queens Dumpling House
Bagels, steaks, more pizza
more Chinese
On Austin Street, more Pizza, Chinese, soda fountains/ice cream shops...
I could eat every meal for a week at a different place, if I got off at the 71 stop.
What is your BEST food stop on the subway?
As far as Chinese food goes, there are far too many great places by the Main Street station to list (although I will single out Joe's Shanghai on 37th Avenue off of Main Street). Go right by the Broadway station on the Astoria line, and you'll find a bunch of great places (in particular, check out Uncle George's at 34th Street and Broadway).
Here are some offerings:
in Flushing:
Asian (Chinese, Korean, Japanese). There are many ones to go, some quick, some fancy, but there will be some you'll like.
Corona:
Latino (Mexican, Columbian, South American)
Don't forget the Lemon Ice King of Corona.
Jackson Heights:
Indian, Pakistani, Latino cuisine around the 74 St./Broadway station
Woodside/Sunnyside:
Irish pubs, bars, taverns, and cafes.
Manhattan:
at Grand Central there is the Grand Central dining concource, with the famous Oyster Bar, Junior's, and many other restaurants and quick eateries. The new Grand Central Market has gourmet items.
Times Square: many family eateries and chains.
Plus mystical chix galore!
I have no idea where Lenny's pizza is, but Nick's Pizza on Ascan & Austin is the best pizza joint in the city........in my opinion of course.
I didn't see anything that looked like they could make swill. There was a gas station at the corner that had a vending machine. The only other nearby place was a salad bar 4 blocks north near the E line. Maybe you're thinking of the diner at Courthouse Square?
34 St-Herald Square = Shalom Pizza @ 37th & 6th, pizza at only $1.75 per slice! Also Kosher Delight, Mr. Broadway, and Jerusalem II Pizza, home of the flying pizza.
72 St IRT = Dougie's, some pizza place, a Chinese place, Fairway, and Bagel & Co.
Rector St BMT and IRT = Essex on Coney Downtown
But you get the free transfer to the B6/11 with a PPR.
And all of this has to be completed within two hours of initial entry.
Can't wait until I start using unlimiteds in a few weeks.
Okay, getting serious now, here's some of my favorites:33rd/Penn-There's a Greek place called Gyro II on Seventh between 33 & 34 that has the best Gyro & Souvlaki anywhere including Astoria! I've been going there since I was a vendor at MSG in the 60's!!! I've actually taken the LIRR to Penn just to go there and back home to LI.Second Av on the "F"-Katz' DeliStillwell Av when it reopens-The Original Nathans and all the other Coney Is eateriesGraham on the Canarsie Line-A great Italian Deli one block North of the station on the corner-forgot the name.B 50th on the West End-L&B Spumoni Gardens (pizzaria)
And on the LIRR:West Hempstead-White Castle across from the stationMineola- the pizzaria a half block away on Mineola Blvd has the best wings.
Can't think of anything else, I wish 34st Sbarro's still had it's railfan window, the pizza was usually stale and dry (when I would go) but I'd probably have eaten cardboard just to be able to sit and enjoy that view...
86 St-Lex Ave- Unos, Burger King, Flaming Embers
68 St-Lex Ave- Beijing Wok(2 & 70), Silver Spoons Diner(1 & 71), Starlight Diner(1 & 69), Popeye's(68 & 1)
Sheepshead Bay- Bay Pizza
Ave U-Brighton- Lot's of pizza and chinese, 3 Stars on U and E 16 St
149 St-GC- Lincoln Fried Chicken
116 St-Lex Ave- all the Cuchifritos you can eat, plus pizza
Castle Hill Ave- Cross Bronx Pizza
Fulton St/Bdwy-Nassau- The foodcourt at The Seaport(Rajun Cajun my personal favorite)
40 St-Lowery- White Castle on Queens Blvd
Pelham Bay Park + BX29- City Island Ave, rows of places to eat(Tony's at the end and Artie's at Ditmars St)
Jimmy
By the way David, it's no big deal, but this photo is of the abandoned upper level of Myrtle Ave on the Myrtle Line, not the Lower Level Jamaica Line station....just if you want to be technical about some of the locations, it's all the same station, but I know you have a seperate section for the upper level.
About how many more of your "estate sale" slides do you expect to be posting ? And, if I am not being too nosy, whose estate was sold ?
Please comment. Thank you.
Yes, as I figured was obvious, that's what I'm doing. I'm not sure how many are left. Two pages (20 slides per page) of BMT Gate Cars but some are surely already on the site (Joe T. had a bunch of the same images). I have some IRT slides but I think I put them all up before. I'll double check before I put them away. After that, my supply is exhausted. Occasionally you find some old transit slides at train shows but those are relatively few and far between.
I don't remember the name of the person. Someone contacted me a few years ago and said it was their father who had died and left all the slides and would I want to offer some $$ for them. I figure most people just chuck that stuff out in such situations.
Speaking of Joe T., I hope he's stipulated in his will who inherits his photo collection when he dies. Ditto Joseph Frank.
It's good that said person offered you those slides for some $$ rather than just discard them. As has been said before on SubTalk, one man's trash is another man's (or woman's) treasure. I wonder how much fascinating and irreplacable old stuff is lost forever, because relatives of the deceased don't know what to do with their possessions, and just discard them out of impatience or convenience.
Well, I'm having a blast with them. It's fun trying to figure out the locations.
Someone contacted me a few years ago and said it was their father who had died and left all the slides and would I want to offer some $$ for them. I figure most people just chuck that stuff out in such situations.
Sadly, we can't even imagine how much of this stuff is probably thrown out. Most families probably just consider it "junk". I also have a box of photographs that I still have to work on scanning, which I just haven't found the time to do. And the ones that are scanned, need to be rescanned because I scanned them too small the first time to be web worthy. When I get it done....one day....I'll pass them along.
They are all from a shoebox full of stuff that my father bought at an estate yard sale back in the 70's.
I don't know how to do it though, I didn't take the photos, and have no idea who took them, and obviously no way to find out, as he is probably long dead. Is that okay? Do we just put "collection of..." on them?
He must've been a busfan too, as there are LOTS of bus photos (60's), but I am not really a busfan, and don't even know what I am looking at. (I'm lucky if I just get a chance to deal with the subway ones though). I don't really have much interest in dealing with the bus ones right now anyway.
That's what I've been doing. Once in a while I've been able to identify some as photos by Joe Testagrose, Doug Grotjahn, Steve Zabel et al since Joe T. posted a better version of the same image. So in those cases I've used the better image. But none of my slides have photographer names on them. They are mostly slide duplicates since the contrast on a lot of them is pretty poor (due to image quality degradation as it got duplicated). 95% of them don't have locations or dates (although some do, and some of them have since been proven wrong).
Frank Hicks
During the later 1950's several Hi-VT's were converted to blind motors; 4223-4242 in 1952 and 4243-4250 in 1955. Also the odd numbered cars of the R-44 and R-46 cars may be considered blind motors since they have no operating controls; likewise the PATH PA-1c and PA-2c cars.
Best Wishes, Larry, Redbird R33
I don't know how widespread use of blind motors was, either in rapid transit or interurban service. I don't think the Chicago "L" system has ever had any blind motors, and neither did any of the major area interurban lines. The only interurban line I can think of offhand that did was the Illinois Terminal, but they called their blind motors "powered trailers" or something like that.
Frank Hicks
Frank: My internet has been on the fritz for the last few days and I couldn't respond to you.
Regarding the use of blind motors in New York City. The only use of blind motors that I know off on the IRT was the aforementioned conversion of several trailers in the early fifties. This was more a matter of expediency than of planning. In their early years on the subway many Composite motor cars did operate as trailers in trains with Hi-VM's but they could not be considered blind motors.
From the mid-20's onward the BMT marshalled most of the Standards into three car sets with the motorman's controls removed from all but the outer ends. So this would have made them blind motors.
The orignal IND never had any .
I believe that the blind motors on the PATH PA-1 and 2 cars were the first for PATH and the H&M. Though the New Jersey people would probably know more about that.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
The line should be extended east on Ditmars Blvd. and serve La Guardia. Not only does La Guardia need subway service, but residents on the northern end of Steinway all the way to La Guardia are not able to walk to a subway station.
This is an opportunity for the MTA to extend service to an area that is underserved. Beyond the airport, perhaps, the line could end in College Point (where some subway cars are assembled) or continue east on Northern Blvd. Is a subway feasible or will it need to be elevated? How about an el up to the airport then subway past La Guardia?
You must be new here. The city proposed, and the MTA agreed, to extend the Astoria line two blocks north into an industrial area, then over to the airport while ramping down into a subway. $645 million was set aside for that purpose and that purpose only. NIMBYs and shifting priorities shot it down. If the press is to be believed, there are more local residents in favor of eliminating subway service than extending it. Though of course I don't believe them.
Needless to say, an extension for dozens of blocks along Ditmars, with residences on both sides, is a non-starter.
This idea seems feasible to me, but politics is often beyond common sense
Then you might remember all the signs that went up in the windows of the stores along 31st street and Ditmars - "NO TRAIN TO THE PLANE"
Even more opposition was to the existing elevated structure, which many percieve should have been submerged underground
What was supposed to be the fare for this train?
Was it ever intended to integrate N/W service?
Yes LGA needs a train, but not *that* train.
My World Trade Center Plan includes a line to the airport, and it better serves the needs of the air traveler.
As a matter of fact, I hate to tell you this, but my plan really *is* the *bst* plan of them all.
:^) Elias
Also, I assume the New Jersey route will pass through Joural Square.
NOPE. These are commuter trains bringing LIRR and NJT pax to WTC.
The stops are Jamaica, WTC and Newark. The Airport stops are NWK, WTC and LGA. Anything else slows the railroad down.
Avenue C does have a plan for a new Twenty Third Street Subway that will handle local traffic in Manhattan.
Elias
N Bwy
How many stops does the 1/9 make in the Bronx? Don't count Marble Hill.
Up through College Point it would be NIMBY-proof--EXCEPT for that first quarter mile or so in Astoria which has effectively killed the whole damn thing. *&^% NIMBYs!
---Andrew
The reason it's like that is because it used to compliment the Flushing line when both lines were run by the IRT and BMT during the Dual Contracts. I've ridden the Astoria line many times and it isn't an anomaly in my eyes. It still serves plenty of people and had very good ridership.
This is an opportunity for the MTA to extend service to an area that is underserved. Beyond the airport, perhaps, the line could end in College Point (where some subway cars are assembled) ?
Are you sure?
Where? In College Point? Well if you look at history, you'll know it did have rail service provided by the LIRR, but the line was torn down due to a lack of ridership. A pity, though. I have a feeling that had an impact since College Point is boring as hell. I'd think the El approach would be pretty good, given how El construction has improved. Of course, all there is to ask is what street is used and will there be any NIBMY objections?
Yup, but that *was* when the area was still FARMLAND!
I would NOT EVEN CONSIDER estending the Astoria, Nimbys aside, it is a BROADWAY LOCAL line, or at least would HAVE TO BE if the 63rd Street Tunnel were connected to Broadway.
New teritories need to be covered by new trunk lines, for the EXISTING TRUNKS ARE MAXED OUT!
My Myrtle Fifth-Avenue subway demonstrates how this *should* work, and while I had not considered a College Point - Bronx Connection, you can easily see where this is possible.
The Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway, is a HIGH SPEED LINE (ala Washington) with some very long (5-7 miles) express runs. It does not interconnect with any existing subway nor does it contemplate any heritage technology.
Elias
It was NOT FARMLAND!!! The area was industrial, with some residential.
New teritories need to be covered by new trunk lines, for the EXISTING TRUNKS ARE MAXED OUT!
How do you think the new territories get service? They're obviously not farmland. Many extensions will replace feeder bus service. In addition, not all new lines are maxed out. Notice how the Broadway Express tracks end at 57th Street. One end of the line might be maxed out, the other isn't.
And those lines are slated to be connected to the SAS. For new branch lines, I agree that there NEEDS to be new trunk service. A full 4-track SAS would go a long way towards providing some of this capacity, pity it's a pipedream. We'll be lucky if we see ANY new subway service in our lifetimes. New trunk service won't happen before transporters and flying cars are invented sometime in the late 2800s.
Well the SAS and a service west of 8 Av is basically the next and possibly last trunk lines that could be built for Manhattan [forget about Madison Av and streets like that]. We could use some subways that could provide higher speeds and upgrading express tracks & tunnels by some modifications but that would be VERY costly; oh well :-(. But hey MAYBE some of our fantasy plans will be taken into consideration in 2200 or whatever 8-).
SO WHAT I'M A BROADWAY LOCAL. THEY ARE TOO THINGS WORKING FOR ME... I HAVE THE BEST CONNECTIONS IN THE CITY, AND I'm CENTERLY LOCATED.
N BWY
part of the reason is people are priced out, by the distanced based fare structure offering no transfers to other MTA venues
$70/month- take a slow bus to a subway which is packed and makes many many stops to the city, though service is 24/7, off-peak is a hellhole, connections become ambiguous and intermodal transfers are time consuming
~$140?month/$33/week installments- take a conmfortable express bus with a 99% guarenteed seat right from your door and get transfers to subways and buses,though restrictive as hell, if you dont fit the profile of someone working in the city from 9-5, your out of luck,except on the QM2 which is off-peak daily. Express bus is generally trhe alternative for areas underserved by the subway. The MTA will not endorse express bus in Brooklyn where rush hour train headways are 10 min because of abundance of subway routes,eg, Bay ridge
~$202/month -walk around with a damn Metrocard flash pass for LIRR and Combination ticket, though this option is excellent 24/7 travel if u need to go to Flushing, Jamaica, and Penn and travel off-peak a lot, pricey but the express bus doesn't do it for me
Make the JFK airtrain part of Fare Zone 3 requiring transfer at Jamaica, much more sense for $5, In fact, fuck Airtrain, they could have just reopened Rockaway Beach branch and made direct access
The Laguardia extension should be a transfer from the woodside station and possibly directly into Penn and made part of Fare Zone 1
The whole point of Airport access is to provide trasport direct to the city and tailored to a passenger with luggage and no time
Causing people to ride the E from Jamaica and the proposed subway to Laguardia defeats the whole goal
This is why the MTA didn't do what you propose. You can't run an LIRR service to the Airport restricted to betwen 10AM and 3PM, and then overnight only.
But ESA brings with it a new ballgame. Now you have to look at ROW.
Look this dead horse has been beaten how many times? Subtalk enthusiasts and armchair designers like to dream up schemes that don't work, then call everything the MTA does political.
That's why you're on Subtalk and the MTA has professionals who know what they're doing.
Keep posting...
Why not looping the LIRR and subway like the London Piccadilly at
Heathrow Terminal?
In any event, KMTA had a single-track ROW and chose not to use it.
But there is good news: In 2010, when East Side Access opens for business, you can reopen the issue of using the Rockaway ROW.
Until then, build it in HO gauge in your living room, and have a good time.
The PA spent a lot for the new line, allowing a free transfer to LIRR would improve the plan 110%
For Laguardia, yes the idea of direct access cannot be done NOW, the needs of Long Island commuters supercede the needs of airport users
and increase the cost of a ticket.
the subway is nice because of room during non rush hour, but the seemingly more practical LIRR lacks standing room for luggage, It will automatically block the doors
Maybe, rig it so that the tail car on each train from Jamaica to penn is a special cabin designed just like the airtrain vehicle, kind of like the parlor car on the old Hamptons-bound trains except this would have Airtrain logo on the side, when passengers exit Airtrain at Jamaica , they can be directed to the special car boarding at the end/front of platform
City Planners thought LaGuardia was better for rail access because you have so many "briefcase travelers": those on business for a couple of days who have all their possessions they are not wearing in a briefcase, and are traveling alone.
If you've got four people and luggage, the best mode is a cab, period.
Don't have AIM, eh? Download it free at www.aim.com!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Does anyone think we've been shortchanged by our local elected leadership? Apparently, the only thing Bloomburg and pataki learned from Mayor Gulliani is to get in front of the cameras and pretend you know what's happening. I never thought I'd say this but I miss Gulliani.
Bush, OTOH, didn't say a thing.
-Robert King
Anyway, we can only hope that a segment of the old cat is preserved somewhere.
Here are some photos taken on a recent trip back in June:
I remember the first time i went up to New Haven and saw that catenary stretched over all 4 tracks. It was a real sight to behond...like I had stepped into one of my GG-1 books.
I'm pretty certain someone saved a few feet of it. It's historic stuff, afterall.
Had I been there Mike, I'd have hurled myself in front of the workers to stop them...
Seriously, though, I'd never noticed it until you mentioned it here a while back and I will miss it. MNRR should be commended, though, on making the most of the opportunity by rehabbing the Greenwich platforms and building a new accessible overpass while the city-bound local track is out of service.
BTW -- are your track numbers off? I'm pretty sure they consider the city-bound local track to be Track 3. Tracks 1 and 2 are the express tracks.
CG
CG
"in that section, tracks 3, 2 and 4 already have the new wire and yet speeds remain unchainged. The only differance now if that you don't have anything pretty to look at to pass the time. "
There are drawbacks to allowing higher speeds while existing catenary is still there one of the tracks. Plus, there is still the issue of signaling. After the last stretch of old catenary is replaced, then complain loud and often if the throttles aren't opened wider.
:)
--Z--
: )
--Z--
NIMBY really derives its power from people who have a political champion. MTA, for example, will not extend the N train to LaGuardia if the Speaker of thew Assembly represents that district. Why? Because the agency can't afford to alienate an important support base, and because, after all, it is accountable to the governor and legislature, not the other way around. We might not like the results all the time, but ther you have it.
On the other hand, East Side Access is NIMBY-proof so long as things like building underpinning and street closures are avoided (which is the case with the current plan). No politicians are worried about it, and surface construction is in Sunnyside Yard - so nobody cares.
SAS will be pretty NIMBY proof because a) there is no politically potent opposition north of 63rd Street, and for the next few years, that's really all that matters to get the shovels digging right now.
b) there's no politically backed NIMBY south of 63rd Street. You'll get a few NIMBYs venting in the newspaper, sure, but MTA does not have to face important political consequences here. And along the way, there are lots of opportunities to "buy off" the few protesters.
The PA has less of a problem. They are accountable to two Governors, but they don't need appropriations (though they did need to pass a critical legal test for use of the PFT money - and they did pass it) and they got more than enough political support from elected officials and community boards so that AirTrain could proceed. There was no danger of the lawsuit stopping construction unless the funding scheme had been deemed illegal). But concessions were important there too - making sure construction hassles were minimized, for example.
That's part of the SAS' success. If MTA can make north of 63rd Street a relatively hassle-free experience, like the PA did for AirTrain, and come up with a construction plan for lower Manhattan that will reduce street closures and the like, that will remove substantive grounds for loss of political support and lawsuits (not that there was much potential to begin with). Done right, There's nobody here to piss off that they'll have to deal with later.
*Before you get too critical:I am NOT a photographerIt's from a cheap $70 digital the size of my thumb!! Anyone could have come down today and with the guest operator promotion could have operated Redbird 6688 or Arnine 1689.
- Saturday the designated rapid transit car was Brooklyn Elevated 1227, but our R-9 was also used for the "Be A Motorman" program.
- Sunday, the R-9 was the primary car, and our R-17 came out at the end of the day for the "Be A Motorman" program.
We also kept operator JJ busy both days with several new members who wanted to operate a trolley vs. a subway car.
- Next week-end the Transit Museum fleet comes out Saturday & Sunday.
- The next rt week-end at Branford will be Sept 20th & 21st.
Anyway, #6688 looks great, it even has that "at home" feeling with litter strewn around the floor : )
Next month she'll be all cleaned up for the public. By then she'll be one of the very few Red Birds still operating for the public :-( I'll miss her brothers & sisters.
Did she get used, or just sit and look pretty?
Need to get a Transporter. Spent Saturday at BSM, running cars, keeping the visting folks from Electric City TM and East Penn Traction Club happy (several stayed the entire day, got to see the stuff we hide in the Shop building plus got to gawk at the all the machines, like lathes, and other machinist stuff we have (makes keeping 19th & 20th century streetcars happy).
We hosted a birthday party after public hours, and everybody had a wonderful time. The two "birthday boys" got to play operator on 7407 (under proper supervision, of course), that made their day. (Hopefully the railfan virus will properly infect.)
Finally dragged myself home, walking in at 8:10 PM, tired but happy. I had arrived at 9:15 that morning. (BSM is 20 minutes from my house.) A day well spent.
Spent Sunday with the family. (The whole horde.) If I had access to a Transporter, I could of stopped in for a couple of hours and still spent family time and keep the beautiful bride happy.
Where's the Enterprise (TM) when you need it?
The railway museum made my day, too. I got a nice little something that rhymes with m.u. but didn't have anything to do with coupling two PCCs together.
Where's the Enterprise indeed?
Scottie, get me the hell out of here!
-Robert King
Jimmy
The name survived until Amtrak for the Bos-DC overnight train. Even in my memory it used to park a car in New York for the DC traffic and vv.
The Aufust 1965 Official Guide has it as The Federal.
I rode it several times in the late 60's. The Pullman was great--go to Pennaround 10:30 sack out wake slightly as they stuck you on the train from Boston circa 3 AM, wake up in Baltimore and get off in DC. The defect in the Shoreliner was no pickup/setout sleeper so you had to be awake until the train came in.
The coaches were a whole other story--and still are w/ ATK. The @#$%&%$$ crews run the lights bright all night as if it were the A train.
For those who don't remember Ike's first inauguration, here's a brief write-up of the Federal Express of Jan 14/15, 1953.
But it was still the lineal successor to the 19th century Federal Express, and I would still like to see the FE named restored.
Two quick tips, in the old waiting room (you pass through it to get to the bathrooms..to the left of the ticket window) is a Famous bas relief sculputre "the Spirit of Transporstaion". There are also some displays re 30th St Station history. Finally, if you go to the info kiosk under the flippy board, you'll see a small yellow-on-black monitor. This is a feed from the CTEC office upstairs. If you can read the small print, it lists incomming trains, and the interlocking they last passed.
I can hear the black helicopters circling overhead...
"Finally, the fact that the blackout occurred on a day of only ordinary summer demand suggests the problem lay with the way the system was managed and not with a lack of capacity, some critics said"
I think a "rolling blackout" is planned. This was weather-induced.
Of course, you can always purchase a generator.
Yeah, me and a million other LIers looking for the six generators left at Home Depot. :)
For those with a MODICUM of religion to them, what would GOD say about what's going on these days? OFF-TOPIC, please don't respond. Just reflect and keep it to yourself please. Those who have SOUL can manage to not respond to these words. After all, talking about "God" is WORSE than a political rant, and I've got YEARS to go before my own repentance on the political front will ever be accepted. :)
Nighty, I'm done ...
Article is as follows:
Amtrak is looking for a few good rail diesel cars – and made in the USA.
The carrier mailed its first request for possible suppliers for new rolling stock during the week of July 10.
The program is for 14 RDCs – eight motors and six trailers. The closest design to the Amtrak concept is the Colorado Railcar demonstration diesel multiple unit (DMU) displayed in the past 18 months. Colorado Railcar is headquartered in Fort Lupton, Colo.
Amtrak spokesman Cliff Black told D:F “The specs for these RDCs emphasize compatibility with virtually all North American equipment – standard couplers, standard air brakes, AAR and FRA compliance – and the ability to mix and match these powered cars with their trailers for a variety of consist configurations, from one to several cars.”
The design is not for a European DMU trainset but more like the original Budd Co. RDCs built by the hundreds during the 1950s and 1960s.
An RDC is general-purpose rather than built for a specific operation or specific railway. The Amtrak specifications require the RDCs to comply with conventional FRA crash requirement strength and also to comply with AAR couplers and air brake compatibility.
Black noted, “This emphasis on North American compatibility is no mistake, since we wish to introduce an RDC that can be used universally throughout our system (or any North American system) with little or no alteration.”
Amtrak said the AAR requirement makes it much cheaper to move and deploy. The specifications require the use of many parts and systems that are already in wide use on the railroad’s coaches. It already has inventories and trained mechanics on hand, and wit also wants to avoid costly imported sole-source parts.
Colorado Railcar states its designs are “fully tested and ready for commuter transit service, and meet FRA 49 CFR Part 238 structural requirements to run in mixed freight service.”
Amtrak’s designers also discourage the use of proprietary software in on-board computers that operate the train.
Black would not say who the letters were sent to, nor how many firms were contacted.
Amtrak anticipates some resistance from globalized suppliers and consulting firms. The globalized suppliers have been trying to sell their typical European models to the U.S. for decades without much success. Amtrak is instead working on a design for a rail car that can be built by small firms out of North American parts.
Amtrak also drafted the specification with its own in-house staff of engineers. Its mechanical officials agree that outsourced consulting and project management efforts related to vehicle design are not always the right way to go.
The story originated in an obscure Swedish on-line publication, Erik’s Rail News (www.eriksrailnews.com).
Colorado Railcar’s 90 Seat Aero DMU list price is $2.9 million per copy. A 92-seat low-floor coach with cab is priced at $2 million, and a 185-seat double deck, low-floor coach with a cab is priced at $3 million, according to the builder’s 2003 brochure.
All car structures are made of low-alloy, high-tensile steel, according to the builder, and end windows are fixed, tinted double glazed, meeting FRA Type I standards while side windows, also fixed, are tinted, double-glazed, and meet FRA Type II standards.
Seats are also fixed in place and made of aluminum frames, molded fiberglass with upholstered inserts, but various models are available, the builder said.
Mechanically, two cast steel trucks are under each vehicle. Primary and secondary suspension is coil springs over 36-inch wheels.
Power supply is 480-volt, three-phase, 60 Hz, up to 175 kW internal generation from on-board generator or external head end power. Low-voltage power supply comes from a 12-volt DC emergency battery.
Multiple units can be controlled from end cab car. Its drive train begins with two Detroit Diesel series 60 motors with electronic fuel control. Each is rated at 600 hp. Transmission is via two Voith T212 BREs with a KB190 retarder. Final drive is two Voith KE553s.
All their designs can operate up to 100 mph, but the nominal top operating speed is 90 mph for all three pieces.
The empty weight of a powered DMU cab car is 175,000 pound for a single-level unit, and 194,000 pounds for a double-decker.
Seating in a low-floor powered or coach car without a cab is between 92-98 people, but 185 passengers for a powered double-decker and 190 riders for a double-decker without a cab. Maximum passenger capacity including standees, ranges from 246 to 412.
A single level or a bi-level car is 85 feet long over the couplers, and 10 feet wide over the side sheets. A single-level car is 14-feet, 10_-inches high – rail to roof – while a double-decker is 19-feet, six inches.
Production will begin this fall, and the expected delivery time will be 14 months.
Colorado Railcar is online at www.coloradorailcar.com.
I hope Amtrak has sense enough to ditch those over-designed Colorado Railcar monstrosities and get something simple and too the point
You mean, perhaps, something from Bombardier’s stable of DMUs? None of them are ready-made FRA Tier I compliant like CRC’s one. You can forget about a resurrection of the Budd RDC—Amtrak never liked the ones that they used to have and they liked the SPV even worse.
At the very least it needs to have pass-through-ability to allow for adding cars to train and/or food service cars
CRC’s DMU has that one one end—that ought to be enough. The DMU can haul two other passenger cars besides itself, so Amfleet snack cars could be added easily.
CRC did have a non-Eurostyle DMU concept pic on their website a while back—it resembled a Bombardier Comet-style single-level car with a huge door in the center of the car. Who is to say that CRC could not pull that one into production if necessary. However, I would say that hoggers would like the cab of the prototype a heck of a lot better.
The alternatives to these would be to buy additional locos and passenger trailer cars and run push-pull trains. In Amtrak's case, which do you think would be preferable?
After leaving Hartford and accelerating up to track speed (80) something in the trackbed, inbetween two bridge girders caught my eye. Some kids had placed about 6 large fragments of old ties on the rails. They had blended in so I only had enough time to yell out "yipes" before we hit them. There was a loug 'bang" and the car shuddered, but was seemingly unharmed. The engineer made a brake application and slowed to about 45 mph and I assumed he as going to stop to make an inspection. We continued on slowly for some time, moving through WOOD interlocking and then comming to a complete stop. The engineer was acting like he couldn't get power. He would release the brake, and we would begin to roll slowly, but nothing else. Then, over the radio the C/R confirmed that the P40 was not loading at all. An inspection revealed that the impact had shaken one of the MU jumpers loose and the head had sheered off while dragging on the ground. We did not have a spare.
Well, the senior C/R suggested to the E/R that we simply "shove" the train along with the C/R in front radioing the signals and blowing the horn for crossings, and the E/R running the engine in back. We got permission from the dispatcher and set off again at the wonderful speed of 30mph. A short time later the C/R hit upon the wonderful idea of stopping the N/B inland shuttle at Meriden and then swapping passengers and crews. Our train would go back to Springfield, engine first, and there train would go back to NHV, with a working cab car. When we got to Meriden, they had already discharged and the train had pulled forward. I got off and took off with my ride so I didn't see how it all tured out, but some fast thinking on the part of the senior C/R really saved the day.
Incidently, when we were stopped I was explaning to some passengers exactly what had happened and what the crew was doing. The senior C/R was impressed with my knowledge and line diagram and then presented the broken MU cable for my, and the passenger's near me, inspection. I took several pics. LAter when talking with the dispatcher I heard him say "one of the passengers I have here is qualified". I don't know for what he was referring to, but I'll take it as a compliment.
I'm sure they appreciated the shots but most of all the company since railroading can get to be MIGHTY boring. And hanging out with strangers and sharing stories is what riding and running railroads is all about ... both in the coach and in the loco. But when "up front" the cardinal rule is DON'T get in the way, or you'll be the next 12-9. :)
The attendant asked me to take a picture of her for a scrapbook she was keeping. On arrival at LAX, I posed her, uniform cap and all, next to the "Sleeping Car" sign of the car, and gave her the picture myself when I looked her up in San Diego a couple of weeks later. Neither she nor her parents could understand why I used North County Transit to get there rather than driving (I thought her folks would have strokes, they were so horrified). Her father was a retired NYCTA engineer who hated his old employer and thought I was the biggest doofus on the face of the earth (and the young lady decided she respected that opinion enough so she wouldn't see me again after that. We went to dinner in a cab, talked a bit, then I returned to LA.
I trust by "cab" you mean one of those yellow thingies. :)
Read your followup, and THANK YOU from a former railroader - whatever you two had, the arsewipes in "hummin' racehorses" put a complaint into your "personnel folder" and when it's time for your double-secret review, it's MOST helpful to have letters of commendation in there along with all the demerits you've accumulated. A letter of commendation from a (ahem, KAFF!) "customer" is worth its weight in GOLD. One of the reasons I've always suggested since I've been here - if someone does it right, acts like a true professional or just plain "makes your day" (IGNORE this if they did something they shouldn't have) ... then by all MEANS, get their badge, write in and TELL their employer how they made your life special. WAY too many people take that down and write in to management "conductor number 61432 phucked up my LIFE!" ...
Bless ya, bro! Sounds like everyone had a good trip ... and them's RARE, especially on the side of those who GAVE you the ride. :)
Of course, it's not like that anymore - but several times when I was a motorman "after hours" on an extra, I'd see the lanterns on the catwalk, come around a curve to the flagger and see *NO* track ahead with folks wrestling steel into place, hammering it down, then getting out of the way so I could roll through what they'd JUST placed. Ain't like that anymore. :(
But Amtrak? Got WAY too many friends to get bored. Or cranky. :)
The A's branching point is near the end of the line. Most passengers from Manhattan have already gotten off by then, and the stations on the Rockaway peninsula are among the most desolate in the system. The proposed 5 branching point would be at one of most crowded spots on the line.
Frequently it is better to REMAIN IN THE TRAIN. It is much safer than the tracks, tunnels or elevated structures. And frequently a car knocker can arrive on the scene within that fifteen minutes, and resolve the issue so as the train can at least move to a station.
With the power of, an unusual set of circumstances obtained, and regular methods of evacuation could not prevail. But assuming that the railroad is running, and a train lays down, say in a tunnel under the river. I guess the best method of evacuation might be to discharge the following train, then run that train empty up to the stalled train, evacuate the fallen train back to the rescue train, and then to back that train into the last station.
Of course, now you have two trainloads of angry confused passengers on a platform for a line that in not running, at least until the dead cars can be retrieved.
LIRR has a better chance of clelaring its tunnels, because it has a rescue engine cooling its heels at harold tower, just waiting to play "go-fetch". The subway cannot do this.
Now for evacuation to the roadbed and through the tunnels to a street exit! OMG: there are only two crewmen to help inform, guide and control the evacuation of 2000 people. Getting elderly or the infirm down to the roadbed can in and of itself be a big challenge. Better, if at all possible to wait for the whole train to be rescued, even if it takes two or three hours. Eventually they gotta get that sucker out of there, and the PAX are safer where they are. Maybe not comfortable, manbey frustrated to the max, but certainly safer. And SAFETY is the name of the game.
Elias
In a regular emergency (Smoke in station, sick passenger, stuff like that): The train can go to the nearest station and discharge from there without a rescue train.
Derailment/Crash: Pending on the severity of the situation it shouldn't take more than 5-120 minutes for a crew to attempt to rescue you.
Blackout: Theres your train and 667 other trains to be evacuated so give the people a break.
In anyway instead of demanding to be rescued in 15 minutes you better count your blessings since youre going to live anyway (8 years without a fatal crash/derailment).
Btw, do any fossil-fueled cartypes run on the Subway? or are the garbage trains also 3rd rail powered?
RIGHT.
Like we have 600 rescue trains which can step over the other 599 trains
to reach the one sole train they're assigned to "rescue".
Wait.
And let that happen on my run right before lunch. Oh, I'd be heated.
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/110038p-99378c.html
This applies even to attended entrances, unless the S/A's are given the temporary ability to sell SingleRides or Fun Passes or to accept credit cards, depending on which of the machines' features are down.
The machines can usually figure out on their own if they're working, so they should be able to send a signal to the turnstiles to unlock. (They should also be able to send a signal to a repair crew, preferably before they run out of MetroCards or SingleRides or change or room for bills.)
If that were done, nobody would complain about broken MVM's, and NYCT would have a direct incentive to keep them in working order.
But how do you keep a group of vandals from screwing up the machine every day, then offering themselves free rides?
To guard against "swipesellers" who target people who might not have seen the policy, I might be inclined to have a police officer spot-check the MVM location after a malfunction alarm, but I don't know how disruptive or demanding that would be.
What was wrong with the full-time booth elsewhere in the station?
But that other mezzanine probably had another MVM or two as well as the booth; I wonder if she bothered to try them.
Wrong. The booth was open in the AM rush, when the station was full of people and security was not an issue. It was closed in the afternoon, when the station is less busy and I have some concerns. It is closed all weekends, when they can take the station to get to the park or movie theater without crossing Bartel Prichard Square.
In short, there was no security advantage to this booth whatsoever. And I think that is typical.
Hard to stay alert when you have so little to do. I can't imagine having to sit in a booth, and not leave, overnight.
The other annoying thing is they went and changed the red globes to green on me, now it just looks weird. You laugh, but those entrances have had red globes my entire life, seeing them green just feels odd. Can't really explain it...
But 24 hour access is definitely good, especially since the best they could do was just close the exit but not the mezzanine, and the out of fare control passage between the two parts of the station had it's "CLOSED" chain stolen by vandals so they have had to use pink tape every night for the past 2 years.
I thought a green globe specifically meant that there was a full-time booth, not just full-time access. I guess that's changed now.
I still don't understand why the part-time booth at 87th and Broadway (SB platform) wasn't on the hit list. The space there is so tight that the booth takes up most of the space fronting on the platform, and the three turnstiles are wedged in the corner (literally). If the booth were removed, there'd be room for at least three HEETs, maybe four. The entrance is now only open rush hours; how I'd long for it to be open middays, evenings, and weekends! Yet it's never been on any of NYCT's hit lists; instead, the only exit from the NB platform was on the list earlier this year.
Peace,
ANDEE
BUT an AK in the old days was "stop, look and listen" ... coast to the IJ, apply, watch your arms, and MOVE, expecting to hit the ass of a B train if you don't COAST through the red. :)
The FIRST usage of AK meant Auto-Key, meaning you didn't need to stop and use the key or button to drive the stop.
When Auto-Keys became prevalent, the Circle-K appeared to remind operators that the signal in question was one that needed the key or button used.
Once arbitrary keying by was prohibited by rule 40, the AK designation was redefined to mean Authorized-Key, meaning the T/O did not have to ask permission to key it by.
There are scant few signals which used to be manual key on the BMT which have no button, and the only way to key tham now is to step on the stop once the train is over the IJ.
The rule book indication of a red automatic remains permissive, ie: stop, operate stop key device and proceed at restricted speed. But the operation rule (40) has been changed to prohibit the keying.
And it ALSO meant that you could do an ADD without a banging as a "resuce train" for the geese to walk through in the event of a laydown. Lawd knows, I was pushed by a rescue train twice and I got to KEEP my geese! :)
But back in MY day, PRIOR to 40, we were TRUSTED to be careful. And ya know what? With better than *HALF* the motormen be smoking that damned illegal spliff, none of us drove an H2A up someone else's butt? Wonder how in hell we ever made out, chasing trippers (YES, I "drafted a train" ahead MANY times by chasing it 20-30 feet ahead of me while it rolled, COMPLETELY cheating the signals ... if anyone's ever watched the old EDISON FILMS of the IRT just as it opened, anyone ever WONDER how you could have a movie of the backend of a GIBBS car all the way up the tunnel, 20 feet behind?
59 tower had a WONDERFUL way of clearing the 6 Ave feed ... they'd AK us, they'd have us pull up RIGHT behind a B train, move THAT over to the right, throw a switch and have use LITERALLY follow them uphill and cut over RIGHT as the B's 8 car passed over, line us up and bring us in on the left so we both stopped (my leader and me) at the SAME TIME! It took BALZ ... that TOO don't happen anymore. When someone was in the cab, we were TRUSTED to do it right. Amazingly, we DID. And MANY were "high" in the cab - tootskerusskie, Maryjane, some even shot up. Me, I would occasionally dabble in a "Bronx pin" of weed, but NEVER on the job, damned rare. I inhaled and I exhaled. Over and over again. :)
LIFE was SO much simpler on the rails though when we could just move up, cross it, dropit, do it. And with the dopers that WERE out there, STILL nobody died. Strange angle: Wasn't until I got to Branford and finally got a set of my old handles BACK again that I realized what was going on in the yards when I worked there.
Anyone who has a *REAL* Arnine handle from "back in the day" might note a HOLE on the bottom near the "business end" ... that lead to a hole throught the handle itself all the way to the END ... HASHPIPE!
When I worked the yards, I'd see guys off to the side PASSING an Arnine handle back and forth. Wasn't until BRANFORD and playing with a 1970's arnine handle that I ever realized WHAT they were passing back and forth! Damn! 60's came and went, and I never GOT it! :)
What is the retaining circuit on the remaining signals with
S relays and no levers? Is it still approach-retaining like
the original wiring?
They had manual first, then automatic,was invented and people found it easier, but there were still uses for manual.
Trains enter and leave the station at a lower speed. I keep missing connections because of it.
Don't blame the TRAINS, gramps.... walk yourself FASTER.
So, my question is, does anyone know if that old Putnam track ever sees cars running on it or are those old cars stranded there.
I also saw a station sign "Highbridge" just north of Yankee stadium, next to the car facility there. I am I correct in assuming that is an employees only station?
wayne
You can also walk part of the ROW in Van Cortlandt park where it is part of the park trails.
But if they ever get serious about MetroNorth to Penn, they may be able to tunnel under Woodlawn from the Harlem/New Haven line to the old Putnam Division, then use the Empire Line down from Spuyten Duyvil down to Penn.
Alternatively, the main line is intact up through Yonkers. My idea is park and ride garages in the vicnity of the Thruway/Sprain/Saw Mill, with express shuttle trains right down to GCT. You just need to rebuild and electrify a few miles of the line and build the garages.
Not an expert, though I was orignally from Yonkers, atop Nodine hill. A little over, atop Park Hill, the wealthy of that original suburb used to walk down to the Getty Square Branch. Want a cheap mansion? Go there, but be prepared to fix it up.
I recall fishing with my cousin near the abandoned station under the Odell Avenue Bridge in Northwest Yonkers.
Born too late.
It was a private elevator. A big mansion up on the top of Park Hill also had property on the bottom of the hill, and an elevator down. I think the elevator is still there. My Dad delivered newspapers in the area as a child and took me to see it once.
All kinds of stuff like that in "Terrace City." There are examples of houses on top of cliffs with stairways up, or garages at the bottom of cliffs with the house up above.
More specifically, the house was on Overcliff Street, NW of the intersection of Park Hill Avenue and Van Cortlandt Park Avenue. I lived in a two-family house my grandfather built on a vacant lot between the mansions of Park Hill and the tenements of Nodine Hill and the 7th Ward, where my family came from.
My other grandfather worked in Manhattan and lived in Park Hill. But he used to drive to 242nd and Broadway and take the 1/9 rather than walk down the Putnam Division.
MBTA Vet: I cannot claim to be an expert on the New York Central but I have worked on that railroad for the past 25 years. (CR and MN).
The Put never had any regular
through service to GCT even when the electified Getty Square Branch was open. Passengers transfered between the Putnam Division and the Hudson Division at Highbridge Station for service to and from GCT. The southern terminus for all Putnam Division trains was Sedgewick Avenue Terminal.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33