Just confirming the post by Robert last week, all L service has been provided with R-143s since 7/22/03. The last train of R-42s operated in L service onn Monday, July 21. No idea if it may have had an R-40M pair stuck within somewhere.
There were 4 R-40Ms visible at DO Yard today, and 4 more on one J train that I observed.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
200 for a 168-car max requirement is quite sufficient. What this SHOULD mean is final elimination of the R-40Ms from ENY and maybe some R-42s, too.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Once the additional 12 cars enter service, will they run on the L, on the (weekday) M, or somewhere else?
I look forward to the transfer of at least a few R-42's to CIY.
Robert
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Jimmy
Incognito
A drill rig on a truck doing what appeared to be test borings at the Flushing Creek end of TA property, behind Yard B.
Could this be the preliminary stage of construction for the new Corona Barn?
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
The link is as follows
http://www.trainweb.com/cgi-bin/top/tw_do.cgi?news/2003/poll2003a.html
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Right off the bat, I have an omission from part one that needs to be mentioned. In guiding you all through the tour of the route, I forgot to mention the fact the South Shore passes over the EJ&E with yet another short, steep grade. This accomplished east of East Chicago near the west end of the Gary city limits. If driving east along the parallel Indiana Toll Road, this crossing would be a little west of the Cline Avenue interchange. I recalled this as I was on the way to work the morning after I sent part one out. Hey, at least I even remembered it on my own.
I did receive a note from one reader who tells me the Shore and GTW did not interchange at South Bend. According to the South Shore system map I have there is no physical connection between the two roads. However, I recall talking to a couple of the Trainmasters while I worked there and they told of receiving cars from the GTW at South Bend. I can only figure that perhaps Conrail was forwarding these cars across town. I would like to hear from anybody with factual information about this interchange.
I’ve also been told that the original route in East Chicago, before the relocation and elevation of the line in 1956, was from Calumet Avenue to the east end of Parrish. The east end of Parrish is just west of Cline Avenue, Indiana Route 912. The connection to the B&OCT at East Chicago was part of the original route as was some of the track going to Harbison-Walker that was just an industrial lead I my days there. The East Chicago street running was on Chicago Avenue. After being reminded of this fact, I recalled my uncle telling me of catching it on Chicago Avenue.
It is good that so many readers are just full of information. I appreciate all of you that have written in with various tidbits and morsels of information to fill in the blanks and jog my memory. Having left the South Shore over seventeen years ago, it is easy to forget some of the details.
In 1984 the Venango River Corporation purchased the South Shore from Chessie System. The employees of the South Shore frequently referred to them as “the new owners.” Prior to coming forth and making their offer to purchase the property, there had been serious talk of NICTD (Northern Indiana Commuter Transit District and pronounced “Nicta”) purchasing the South Shore. There was a proposal to use freight revenues to subsidize shortfalls in government funding for the passenger operation. There was concern about a government agency owning a profitable freight railroad and channeling funds towards the passenger operation. Being that the Venango River boys came along, this conundrum was averted.
Thanks to the efforts of NICTD, Venango River acquired a South Shore with a physical plant that had been significantly upgraded. In the seven years since the creation of NICTD, numerous improvements included a new substation at Hegewisch, all the other substations upgraded with new switching equipment to sustain even distribution of power, smooth riding track equipped with welded rail between Michigan City and Kensington with thick ballast and good ties, newer motive power, a new passenger car fleet, and a virtually rebuilt Shops Yard. There was a new car washer built at Shops Yard as well to keep the coach fleet cleaners.
When Venango River took possession of the railroad, they had a vision of growth in the freight business. A plan was undertaken to market the railroad as a competitive route. They had every intention of encouraging development on along the route which, in turn, would grow the business for the railroad. We will look at some of their ventures and goals here in part two of this lesson.
The Venango River boys decided to showcase the railroad and facilities would be to bring current shippers, potential shippers, car owners and media onto the property giving them a grand tour of the road. In the spring of 1985 an excursion train was operated for these very people. This run originated at Shops Yard in Michigan City, first operating east to South Bend with a brief layover there. Then it was west to Ice House crossovers. Upon arrival at Ice House, the train was run around using the crossovers both here and at Griffin (a little east of the Calumet Expressway, I-94). The train was then operated east back to Michigan City.
Each person boarding the train was given a media kit. This kit contained information about the current operations of the railroad. There was a small map of the route, leaflets with information about available services. There was also information about locating and developing along the South Shore and a deck of what resembled playing cards. This deck of cards was called “A Little Train Trivia.” Each one of these cards had a bit of information about the history and present information about the railroad.
There were munchees and refreshments served. The drinks were of both the soft and hard variety. These goodies were served up by members of the 20th Century Railroad Club which provided their services for the train.
This train was pulled by two of the South Shore’s GP38-2’s, the 2000 and 2001, freshly repainted into a new version of the classic orange and maroon scheme. I’ll get into the paint scheme a little later. The train consist was comprised of a fleet of private owner passenger cars brought in for the trip. I recall there being at least one domeliner car, perhaps there may have been more. I also recall that one of the cars was painted into a New York Central lightning strip scheme. I believe this car was once MoPac #20, their air brake car that I attended annual air brake training classes aboard. I worked this excursion train and will talk more about this in part three.
Venango River did achieve some success in capturing new business to the South Shore. They began to market their freight shops nationwide as a contract repair facility. An on-car wheel truing machine which allowed for wheels to be turned without having to remove them was a major selling point. This would allow for that car to be returned to service in a timelier manner. A new drop table in the car shop allowed for wheels and trucks to be removed from cars without having to jack the cars up. This saved time again, returning cars to revenue service faster. Some cars (aside from bad orders discovered on line) were brought in for contract service and repairs.
A contract was secured with the AM General to haul military vehicles constructed at their South Bend, IN plant. Most of these vehicles moved on 89 foot flatcars or on bi-level auto racks that were leased from the Soo Line. Venango’s aggressive marketing staff was able to gather up some smaller contracts with a few on line shippers. Venango also had their eyes and thoughts fixed upon getting into Midwest Steel in Portage. This business required a connection to be built with Conrail; a connection to the Chicago Line and then access to the plant via a lead from the Chicago Line on the north side of their tracks. Eventually, this goal was accomplished, but long after I had departed the place.
During the interim, the South Shore did manage to land a contract to haul the scrap steel produced by Midwest. A siding near the plant just south of the main track and high speed siding was used for loading bales of scrap into gondolas. A crane with a magnet was used to pluck the bales off trucks and drop them into the gons spotted on the siding for loading. It was common to get eight or ten gons loaded with scrap per day from Wilson. These cars were hauled to Burnham Yard and weighed. If not overloaded, they were then hauled up to the interchange with the ICG. Any cars that were overloaded were sent back to Wilson to have some of the bales removed to lighten the load. ICG handled the loads to Granite City, IL and Midwest Steel’s parent company, National Steel. A group of gondolas of Pittsburgh & Lake Erie and Delaware & Hudson heritage were acquired for the service.
A contract to handle bottle trains loaded with molten iron was secured. Bethlehem Steel was rebuilding a blast furnace. As a result of this project, they needed to purchase the iron they needed for production into steel iron from US Steel in Gary. A joint operation with the EJ&E was inaugurated and lasted for the duration of the furnace rebuilding project. The iron was delivered to the South Shore at Miller by an EJ&E crew. The J had obtained trackage rights over the B&O between Curtis Yard in Gary and Miller to affect this move. EJ&E switch engines were used in this move. This business was a bit of a coup for the Venango River boys as they were bidding head to head against Conrail.
Venango also looked at growth in other methods aside from on line industries and services. They began to focus on acquiring other lines or obtaining trackage rights. An unsolicited bid was placed with Amtrak to purchase their line between Porter, IN and Kalamazoo, MI in 1985. This venture did not materialize though as Amtrak was not looking to sell. Conrail was handling all of the on line freight business under a perpetual trackage rights agreement. Eventually Venango did acquire the former GM&O line between Joliet and St Louis and the route to Kansas City. This transaction included trackage rights between Joliet and Chicago on the former GM&O as well as trackage rights from Chicago (Bridgeport) and Kensington and the connection to the South Shore from Illinois Central Gulf. This transaction was a major contribution to the end of Venango River Corp. However, I will not cover that episode as it occurred after my departure,
The Venango River boys did make a serious attempt to improve their connections to the outside world through direct access to the Belt Railway of Chicago. They were negotiating with the parent companies of the Chicago & Western Indiana to either obtain trackage rights on or purchase outright the CWI Main Line between State Line and Pullman Junction. The goal was to reach either the BRC’s Commercial Avenue Yard in South Chicago or up to 80th Street to allow direct access to Clearing Yard in Bedford Park. The remaining portion of the trip would have been over the BRC main line between 80th Street and Clearing Yard.
While MoPac, Seaboard System, Grand Trunk Western and N&W were in favor of this proposal, Conrail was dead set against it. The structure of the CWI required unanimous agreement of all five of its owners, not just a majority in such issues. My guess was that Conrail was afraid of the South Shore getting a new outlet for business and becoming more competitive with them. This could have directly affected Conrail’s dominance of the business with Bethlehem Steel. If the South Shore now had a better outlet on the west end, they could possibly have competed head to head with Conrail for the lucrative business out of Bethlehem going to western connections in Chicago. If the South Shore had improved connections to roads like Soo Line, Chicago & Northwestern and Burlington Northern via the BRC, they could very well compete on a much more leveled playing field with Conrail for this business. With Conrail putting the kibosh on this venture, it spelled the death of the CWI main line between the east end of N&W’s Calumet Yard and the State Line. No traffic was moving across this portion of the line anymore since the MoPac Hammond Local was discontinued. As a result of Conrail’s no vote, this segment of the CWI wound up being abandoned.
Another line under consideration for purchase was the N&W’s Michigan City Branch. The coal trains from the N&W and a local out of Argos, IN were the only traffic on this line. There were several industries that received rail service including a couple of them in Michigan City. In 1985, N&W parent Norfolk Southern was not ready to peddle off the line. Eventually the South Shore did obtain trackage rights over the Michigan City Branch to Stillwell, IN and a connection with the Grand Trunk Western. This agreement led to the operation of steel trains with the GTW. Eventually the owners that succeeded Venango River were able to obtain the line from NS.
There was a strong desire by Venango to erase the C&O era image. The old rigid drawbar former C&O Magor built cabooses were replaced with a group of former Santa Fe models. These cabooses, equipped with cushioned draw bars were much smoother riding. They had full electrical service with operating interior lights. Step lights, porch lights and red marker lights were also part of the package. They were also radio equipped. One of them even managed to get painted into the traditional South Shore colors. The rest wore their Santa Fe red scheme with the circle and cross emblem painted over in solid yellow paint with a South Shore logo applied over it.
The idea was proposed to replace the blue and yellow paint scheme on the locomotives. An employee vote would be taken on a new paint scheme. Three different paint schemes, all created by employee Mitch Markovitz (who has created many of the colorful South Shore posters) were presented to the employees. Every employee was given the opportunity to choose between a new variation of the current yellow and blue, an orange and gray scheme and the classic orange and maroon scheme of the Insull era. By a margin of something like 90%, the orange and maroon scheme was chosen. Shortly thereafter a couple of locomotives, the 2000 and 2001 (used on the excursion train) were repainted into the “new” scheme. Eventually, the entire locomotive fleet received this treatment, but it took years to accomplish. I believe the 2007 was the last one to get the look and that was well into the 90’s.
A new car reporting system was developed. A new track numbering system and industry spotting code system was also developed. This system was patterned after the Santa Fe’s “CLIC” system and was called “CLUE.” Unfortunately, I cannot recall what the letters of the CLUE acronym stood for. A new payroll system was also developed in latter 1985. Up until the new payroll system was implemented Chessie System continued to perform the timekeeping and payroll functions for Venango River. In fact Chessie System time slips were still being used during this period. All South Shore employees hired during Chessie ownership and after Venango River took over used identification numbers assigned to them by Chessie’s payroll system. I still recall my number and even use it as a password for my CN account today.
Venango River also amassed a respectable fleet of rolling stock. Aside from the former Santa Fe cabooses, gondolas (mill, scrap and trough style), additional covered coil cars and flat cars were added to the fleet. This gave the South Shore a larger piece of revenue as cars costs were reduced. An employee recognition plan was also begun. The names of employees were also applied to side of each car. Each car bore the name of an employee. I didn’t last there long enough to see my name applied to a car though. The cabooses bore the names of the five partners of Venango.
A group of F45’s was acquired from Burlington Northern in 1985. They were stored for quite awhile, first at Burnham Yard and then at Shops Yard. Only one or two of them ever saw any service while I was there and they didn’t work out. Having been stored so long in a humid climate led to the rusting up of electrical contacts among other problems. I would bet years of service on BN and its predecessors also took its toll on them as well. Railroads do not get rid of motive power because it is in good mechanical shape. And when power becomes short on time, maintenance tends to become less than essential to them. Eventually this power was disposed of.
The two NIPSCO (Northern Indiana Public Service Company) plants, one at Baillytown and the other in Michigan City, received unit coal trains almost daily. A fleet of NIPSCO owned NORX high side gons and coal hoppers were used for these trains operated in 100 plus car sets. There was also a sixty-six car train set made up of MoPac hoppers. Many of the coal trains using the NORX sets and of course the sixty-six car set came from mines located on the MoPac in Central and Southern Illinois. I operated some of these very trains in my days there. We also got coal trains from the Illinois Central Gulf using either NORX or ICG hoppers. On occasion, a train of Southern Indiana coal would appear from the Milwaukee Road. There were a few trains of western coal from CNW, but I never once worked an assignment that handled any of the loaded trains. I did work a job that pulled an empty though and it was comprised of CNW and UP hoppers. These trains were handled via the B&OCT at East Chicago.
The Baillytown Generating Station was located just east of Bethlehem Steel. It was accessed using the north siding at Bailly. The Michigan City Generating Station located on the northwest side of Michigan City along Lake Michigan and just east of neighboring Mount Baldy. A siding that broke from the main track at Michigan City to reach the Michigan City plant was known as Power. Conrail could, and occasionally did deliver coal here as well. NIPSCO operated their own locomotives to handle these trains once they were delivered by the railroads. Car Inspectors from the South Shore inspected these cars at both locations when they were released back to the railroad.
The trains to Baillytown had to be delivered in three tracks. Space constraints at the plant required the train having to be cut and pulled into the yard in three pieces. This was due to the lack of a long lead at the north end of the receiving yard to use for head room to allow the train to be doubled into the yard from this end. There was a five or six track yard for receiving trains and also a stub track for storing a few cars. Outbound trains were doubled up at the south end and pulled out. The outbound trains could either use the siding to the west end or use the crossovers from the siding to the main track at the road crossing used by traffic into and out of Bethlehem and the power plant. These switches had to be lined back manually as they were not equipped with spring mechanisms. .
The Michigan City plant had two long tracks and an entire train could be delivered on one track. Outbound trains were run around and the caboose left just east of a switch at the east end of the yard, The Conductor and Engineer would run the engines back to the west end, couple on and pump the air. When ready, the Brakeman on the caboose would have them shove the train back and couple onto the caboose. When given their train orders, they could pull right out onto the main track using the spring switch and heading west. When delivering a train into the plant, the train would be stopped to clear the switch at Power and it was lined back. The caboose would be cut off and the train pulled into the plant.
When the crew cut away from the train, they would come back to the west end through the other clear track and back up to the caboose. When they received their authority, the could shove back out onto the main track and head back to Shops Yard.
The coal trains from the MoPac were delivered via the Indiana Harbor Belt. MoPac crews would deliver these trains to the IHB’s Calumet City Yard and a Harbor crew would then forward the train to South Shore’s Burnham Yard which was essentially right around the corner from Calumet City Yard. In my days at the IHB I handled these trains between Calumet City and Burnham, so I really had the opportunity to participate in almost every facet of this business. The only thing I missed out on was working the jobs that loaded these trains. Although from what I’m told by those who did load them, I didn’t miss much.
A job out of Michigan City would double up (triple up actually as the cars were placed on three tracks) and pull the train delivered by the Harbor. The Harbor also delivered the trains from the Milwaukee Road as well. For a time, the empties returning to the MoPac were returned via the B&OCT at East Chicago. The B&OCT would then pull these trains and deliver them back to the MoPac at Yard Center. Eventually this method was changed and the empties were brought back to Burnham and the IHB came over and pulled them back over to Calumet City Yard.
In the late 70’s MoPac delivered the loaded trains to the B&OCT for delivery to the South Shore. In the early 80’s these trains were being delivered to the BRC at their 87th Street Yard in Chicago and the Belt then forwarded them to the Shore at Burnham. I recall observing a Belt crew delivering a train to Burnham Yard the day I took my promotion exam on the CWI. Little did I know that someday I would be working these trains out of this yard to points east on the South Shore.
Coal trains from the ICG were delivered at Kensington. The ICG would leave them between Kensington and Fordham on what were then their tracks five or six (now known as three and four thoroughfare). A South Shore crew would come up, run around the train and add their caboose, run back around it, tie on and take it east.
There were coal trains from Chessie System’s Baltimore & Ohio interchanged to us at Miller on the east side of Gary and from Norfolk & Western at Michigan City. These trains were destined for Bethlehem Steel’s Burns Harbor Works. The station on the South Shore near Burns Harbor was called Baillytown, named for the pioneer Bailly family that settled and developed that area. These trains would be pulled into the coal receiving yard. A connection through a location called “Jackpot” was used. Jackpot was at the east end of Conrail’s Burns Harbor Yard. Even though this was all yard and industry track, permission was needed from the Conrail Trainmaster that controlled Burns Harbor Yard. There were numerous Conrail jobs working the area and the permission was needed to assure there wouldn’t be any mishaps.
B&O trains would either be delivered into the interchange yard located at Miller or a meet was set up with both railroads. The B&O would pull the train right onto the South Shore main just west of the connection. The South Shore crew would couple onto the east end and take it to Baillytown where it would be run around and then pulled into the mill. On some occasions the empties would be returned in the same method using a meet with the B&O. And other times the empties would be placed into the interchange yard.
The Brakeman of the South Shore job would act as the pilot for the B&O crew. A loaded train would be pulled out onto the South Shore main heading west to clear the crossover switch from the west end of the yard. The B&O crew would cut off and the South Shore crew would couple on to the east end of the train, and if this meet was taking place during daylight hours a red flag would be stuck onto the rear car. When it was dark, a red flashing light (a holdover that was used with the old Magor cabooses) was placed on the rear car and the train headed east to Baillytown and Bethlehem. The train would be run around at Baillytown and then pulled into the mill.
Empties, sometimes accompanied with loads of steel out of the mill for Chessie would be pulled west of the connection to the yard and also Lake Street which crossed at grade at Miller. A B&O crew would enter the South Shore main behind this train and couple on after the South Shore crew cut away. They would pull the train back through the yard and double it to their caboose which was either left on the other track in the yard or out on the B&O main track. The loads of steel were always placed on the east end of the train out of Bailly. This would have them on the head end of the train when the B&O crew took the train east on their line. This made for much better train handling for them. The only really problem spot with the loads on the rear for the South Shore was right at Miller. When the loads came over the hill, they would run in on the head end, but the speed was general lower as the train was usually going fairly slow at this point.
This interchange yard was an interesting set up. The B&O crossed under the Shore at an angle at Miller. The east end of the yard actually passed under the South Shore main here as well with the Shore using a short, steep grade to pass above the B&O here. The interchange yard made a bend to parallel the South Shore main track on the north side. The west end of it was across from the Miller station which was located on the south side of the main track. A lead to the yard also extended west a bit of Lake Street. There were two tracks in this yard and often times it was stuffed full of cars. Other freight such as steel and lime was also interchanged here as well.
On some occasions all of the interchange was not handled with a meet, the cars were just set out in the yard. As the train pulled by the connection, the Conductor would drop off the engine to make the cut from the rest of the train. The Brakeman would drop off west of the bridge over the yard and B&O main and head down the hill to the east end of the yard. He would protect the shove as the yard would usually be filled up with all the empty coal hoppers and other cars when all was said and done. I had a situation here one evening that I will recount in part three.
Coal trains from the N&W would have their motive power consists, made up of all N&W units or sometimes with Southern units (and some locomotives painted into the new Norfolk Southern scheme) as well as N&W cabooses run through onto the Shore. I don’t recall seeing any Southern cabooses though. This power would then be used in any and all freight service until the empties were ready to be delivered back to the N&W and would return at that point in time. In some cases, the empties would be returned in small blocks to the N&W gradually filling the N&W interchange yard located just west of South Shore’s Shops Yard in Michigan City. This yard was located on N&W’s branch that extended from Michigan City to Argos, IN (near Plymouth). The power was usually a combination SD35’s, SD40’s, SD45’s, U30C’s and C30-7’s. On occasion, a Union Pacific locomotive would show up in the N&W consist.
Being these were the days before the 97 channel radios, a device was fashioned to allow a South Shore handset radio to be connected to the locomotive radio antenna and it usually worked quite well.
To compensate them for horsepower hours, the South Shore 2008 was sent to the N&W. This engine was a free runner on the N&W for months at a time before coming home, usually for 92 day inspections. It would then hang around the Shore for a few days and then go back to the N&W.
Depending on the time the N&W loads arrived, a South Shore crew might meet them there at the connection. The train would be pulled west on the N&W past the connection switch which, on their railroad, was just west of the crossing, then shoved back through the connection and onto the South Shore main. A Shore crew could then take right over and head west. Other times the train would be shoved around and onto the main track and left for a South Shore crew when they came on duty or into town. On occasion the train would be left in the interchange yard and a South Shore crew would bring it around later.
After a Bethlehem crew dumped these cars and rolled them into the empty yard, South Shore Car Inspectors would come out and work the cars. A freight crew would be called to pull them when they were ready. Light weighers, cars that were due to be weighed while empty and then restenciled with the new weights would be switched out and sent to Burnham Yard. The determination for weighing them was based upon either the build date of the car or time span between last light weighing. Now there were some Chessie System cars that had a star next to the light weight. These cars were not to be weighed irregardless of the last weighing date. I never did find out what the exemption was on these cars. There was a scale at Burnham Yard and a job working the yard would weigh the cars. The scale tickets on them were brought back and turned in with the usually paperwork by the Conductor. Depending on the amount of cars weighed either the Car Department would come out and then stencil the new light weight and load limit weights on these cars or they would be hauled back to Shops Yard for this treatment. Once this process was completed these cars would then be returned to their owners. Bad ordered cars would also be switched out and sent to the car shops in Michigan City for the required repairs. All the remaining cars would be returned to their respective roads.
The Car Inspectors used a pick up track laden with necessary supplies like spare brake shoes. An oxy-acetylene torch kit which could be used for burning or repairs was also part of the equipment. An air compressor was towed behind their truck and used to charge the brake pipes on the cars. These cars were worked with air and tested. These roaming Car Inspectors worked many of the cars received at various interchange locations.
There were other industries on line including Georgia Pacific, Bulkmatic, Carborundum, Browns, Erb Lumber, Bendix and Fruit Growers Express. There were several others as well. Georgia Pacific had a facility in Gary, along side of Conrail’s Fort Wayne Line and the parallel N&W Gary District. Bulkmatic had a trans loading facility in Gary along US Route 12 near the South Shore/EJ&E interchange. Carborundum was located between South Bend and Michigan City and Bendix was in South Bend. Erb Lumber was on the east side of Michigan City east of the yard. Fruit Growers Express had a facility located at the east end of Burnham Yard. This facility made repairs to FGE’s large national fleet of refrigerated, insulated and specialty box cars.
Conrail had the lion’s share of business from Bethlehem including a significant share of in plant switching. However the Shore did have a very respectable amount of business from the mill. A healthy amount of steel coils and plates were shipped from Bethlehem via the South Shore. This steel was then interchanged primarily to Chessie System and ICG. A few loads would go to the N&W while some went to the IHB as well. A yard used by the Shore although owned by Bethlehem known as the 430 Yard was the source of loads out and empties and some loads of scrap into the mill. Conrail jobs that switched the mill would leave the outbound cars for the South Shore in the 430 Yard. South Shore crews left inbound cars for the mill here for Conrail jobs to pick up. We had a big derailment here with a coal train one Sunday afternoon and I’ll talk about that in part three.
The IHB and South Shore also interchanged other business at Burnham Yard. Cars to and from customers on the South Shore in addition to all the coal were handled here. Paper, steel, scrap and flour were just some of the commodities interchanged with the IHB. There was other business as well.
South Shore affected interchange with Illinois Central Gulf in Chicago at two different locations. Coal trains loaded and empty were interchanged at Kensington and other traffic near a station called Ice House on the portion of the railroad known as the Kensington & Eastern. I believe there was another name for this location but I cannot recall its name. Interchange with N&W was affected at both Michigan City and Chicago (again, near Ice House), B&OCT at East Chicago, B&O at Miller, C&O at Michigan City, Indiana Harbor Belt at Burnham, Conrail at Burns Harbor and South Bend and the EJ&E at Goff Jct. in Gary. All of this interchange was business that originated or terminated on the Shore, though none of this was bridge traffic. All of these roads could and did interchange with each other and did not require the services of the Shore.
As I had mentioned in part one, there was an interchange at one time at Clark Road with the Pennsylvania that was a victim to mergers and removed. There was also an interchange with the Wabash near the Georgia-Pacific plant but it too, was eliminated. The N&W downgraded the Wabash and severed it as a through route in 1978 and the interchange tracks and connection were removed.
At one time the South Shore marketed themselves as a bridge route. The line was touted as an alternative and bypass to the congestion of the Chicago terminal. Mergers and consolidation within the industry dried up virtually all of the bridge traffic. Venango was making efforts to recapture some of this business. Their efforts started with several grain trains from the brand new Chicago Central & Pacific. Beginning in early 1986 about four or five of these trains were received from the CCP at Kensington and hauled east across the system, then interchanged to Conrail at South Bend.
Being these were the days long before there was electronic data interchange (EDI) and automatic equipment identification (AEI), business received from other railroads would need to be physically checked and the waybills accompanying these cars worked up. A roving clerk from Shops Yard would make a trip to the various interchange points. They would check the deliveries from the interchanging roads and work up the waybills. From this information the clerk would then write up switch lists and leave them in the phone box at that location. The freight jobs would come out, pick up the lists and perform any and all switching on these cars as prescribed by these lists. There was no computer system used, these lists were all written by hand.
Many of the Conductors did not give a copy of the list to their Brakemen. In the chores of their switching they would just tell you how many cars to let go or what switches to line as you proceeded with the work. While we did have some pretty good Conductors, there were a few that were less than optimum performers. If you were keeping track of what was going on, you could sometimes see that you were double or triple handling some cars during your switching. I surmised they figured if the Brakeman didn’t see the list, the Brakeman couldn’t see how much extra work the Conductor’s were creating for the entire crew.
A freight job heading west from Shops Yard would stop and pick up cars at Bailly (either going directly into the 430 Yard at Bethlehem or cars pulled by another job and left there in the siding for pick up), Miller and East Chicago. The pick up at Bailly often had the cars for the B&O already blocked so that they could be set out at Miller while heading west. The rest of the cars would be taken to Burnham where they were classified. Cars for the ICG would usually be taken up and delivered. Some Conductors would switch out everything and have the eastbound train ready to roll before going to the ICG. On the way back, they would just stop, pick up the train and then proceed. Others would come back and switch some more and then head east. Some of these cars would be set out en route for the Gary Switcher while others were set out at Bailly to go into Bethlehem. Some of the cars went back to Shops Yard bound for the RIP Track or industries in and east of Michigan City. A few cars might be held in the yard at Burnham or even set onto the State Line Siding on the north side of the main tracks.
The Gary Switcher was a local that used to work Monday through Friday going on duty in the morning at Shops Yard about 0800. It normally worked the Bulkmatic plant in Gary and Georgia Pacific. Oftentimes they would switch out Harbison-Walker as well. Depending upon the situation, they might leave westbound cars pulled from industries at Parrish Siding and a westbound would pick them up and take them to Burnham.
There was another switch run that worked east from Michigan City. If I recall correctly, this job used to go to work about 0930 or so. They worked the C&O interchange and Carborundum as required. They would then turn back west and go to Bailly. They might stop and work industries as required around Michigan City including the old Monon. At Bailly, this job would work the 430 Yard pulling outbound cars. Any eastbound cars would either be brought back to Michigan City of left at Bailly for another freight job to pick up.
There were several freight pool jobs as well. These jobs could do about anything from switching industries to handling coal trains. Oftentimes these jobs would handle pulling the empties from Bethlehem and taking those cars required to be weighed to Burnham and handled the weighing chores. They could also head out to South Bend and work the industries there as required. They might work industries anywhere on the system including on the former Monon line. There were a couple of industries in Chicago just east of Kensington the pool jobs would often work. There was virtually nothing these jobs didn’t do, except switch the yard at Shops. While there were two tracks on the south side of the main track at Shops Yard which could be used for switching, none of the freight jobs actually worked the yard itself where cars were spotted in the RIP track. The Terminal Carmen performed these duties, including switching out the inbound train when it arrived and preparing the outbound train for a freight crew.
And all of the work performed by the freight crews was while having to dodge passenger trains. While much of the freight was moved in the evening and overnight hours, some of it moved under daylight sun.
These freight pools were just like those of the big railroads. They were on call and worked in a rotary style, first in and first out. It was sort of like an extra board, only with a complete crew that always worked together. There were three of these turns and in the last few months I worked there, a fourth turn was added as business levels demanded it. Each one of these turns had two rest days. And just like the big roads, the days off tended to get shortened. It was not unusual to be called out very late in the evening on your Friday.
I was on a regular freight turn for a while with Tuesday and Wednesday off. We would almost always get called out just before midnight on Monday (which was our Friday) and frequently work ten to twelve hours. So then you didn’t get home until 1100 or later on your rest day. Now you get to spend the first part of it sleeping. Then on Thursday we would get called out early, like shortly after midnight. So you needed to be rested in the evening on Wednesday because you just knew that the phone would be ringing around 2215 or so. As a result two rest days turned out to be closer to about one day and one quarter. And oftentimes we would get called out twice in a twenty-two and half hour period, so we commonly worked six or seven starts in our five days.
During my days at the Shore, it was all one operation. The commuter passenger service was operated by the South Shore with NICTD overseeing and subsidizing the operation. The Engineer and Conductor/Brakeman extra boards protected both freight and passenger assignments. You could bid back and forth between the two classes of service. There was no bind to freight only or passenger only so we could and did work both freight and passenger. In my days on the extra board there it seemed I actually worked freight more than passenger. And that was for a reason I will also get into with in part three. Today, NICTD owns the line and fully operates the passenger service. They perform all the maintenance of the track, overhead catenary and signals. Anacostia & Pacific Corp owns the freight operations and has perpetual operating rights over the road. This came about as the result of the Venango River Corporation’s financial failure.
NICTD acquired the railroad from the bankruptcy estate and Anacostia & Pacific purchased the freight operations. As part of this acquisition, they negotiated the perpetual trackage rights arrangement to assure they would always be allowed to operate freight service.
At the time of these transactions, the transportation employees as well as some other crafts were required to make the decision as to who they wished to work for, South Shore or NICTD. They cannot just flow back and forth; however, those hired prior to the split up of the line have flow back rights. Should passenger service be reduced or eliminated which would call for a downward adjustment of the work force, those prior right employees affected and displaced by such a reduction have the right to make a move back into freight service.
The five Venango River boys were highly visible and very accessible. They made it a point to rub elbows with the help. They sought input from us and listened closely to any and all suggestions and ideas. And they made it a point to know our names and something about all of us. There weren’t any body guards and fear of the help. They were hands on owners.
With the background of the South Shore complete, we will close out today’s lesson. I’ll get into some of my situations and experiences in part three.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2003 by JD Santucci
As to the R-110B, it's not in service. If it ever goes back into service, then where it runs will be up for grabs.
David
David
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
I have heard conductors (in the pre R142 days) announce connections to services that aren't running on that particular weekend. They don't bother to read the notices (assuming they can understand them in the first place).
I'll bet that one information agent didn't even know that LaG and JFK are 2 different airports.
And now the MTA wants to shut the information line down during overnight hours.
They should have a new slogan:
"MTA - How do you get there? Don't ask us."
This weekend, the E line runs on the F line to 2nd Avenue (not West 4th st as the incorrect service advisory mentions) during most of the day. So the caller was not properly warned about the diversion this weekend and would have to walk one crosstown block to access Penn Station.
--Mark
BTW, did you see the late night service notice for the < Q >? That's right I did not make a typo. It's at the benches inside our home station.
But, do you have PROFF?
Peace,
ANDEE
Now we will see the PROFF, believe me you will be LYAO big time.
Yes, Saskatoon, its in Canada, you know, that big country just to the north of us.
No it is nowhere near Montreal.
Yes Winnipeg is closer, but that is still a 500 mile walk, can you find anything closer?
Well we did end up driving up there with two people.
Elias
Peace,
ANDEE
Incorrect. Amtrak is listed as National Railroad Passenger Corportaion as their entity. Commuter railroads are managed by different agencies unrelated to Amtrak. So Amtrak OR Conrail owns the ROW and the little commuter railroad agencies lease the ROW from Amtrak.
I hope that wasn't the case because a conductor can get in big trouble if he/she "drives" a train. An *engineer* is supposed to "drive" the train!
I have a friend who is a conductor on the BNSF and he is qulafied to run the locomotive (ie when the engineer goes to the head) and many conductors hold both federal licenses, although my friend does not.
All remote control trains (ie in the yards) are operated by the conductors, (from the ground) there are no engineers anywhere in sight.
Tests are now underway to remove engineers and conductors from long distance freight trains. They will be operated via the Global Positioning network. There will be a "train technician" on board to keep the engines running, but he will not drive the train.
Elias
I'm not 100% clear on the issue, but I think he holds a certificate, but not the federal license. Is that possible?
Elias
no cerificate and you can only move the wifes car or a remote control engine.
remote control engines are based on speeds less than 5 mph within yards.
He runs his trains exactly by the book.
He's counting the months to retirement, and he has no intention of screwing anything up.
Elias
Peace,
ANDEE
Does Amtrak own the Penn Tunnels and the line to harold, is this LIRR, or does it shift with the change in operating group, LIRR vs Amtrak? I'm assuming from Harold to Shell is owned by Amtrak.
MARC Penn Line runs on Amtrak owned lines on the NEC, while the Camden and Brunswick lines run on CSX lines.
Amtrak owns the rest, from Shell to Washington.
False. The NEC is still officially from BOS to WAS via the former NH Shore Line.
Michael
Washington, DC
Michael
Washington, DC
Jimmy
Michael
Michael
Peace,
ANDEE
I forget if it was before or after their shutdown threat.
Amtrak owns approximately 80 percent of the NEC, which is currently defined as the electrifed corridor between Boston MA and Washington DC. AFAIK, segments not under Amtrak ownership are from CP Shell (where Metro-North meets Hell Gate line) to New Haven, and state of MA from RI border into South Station.
Of course, not all commuter lines (except NJ Transit) use the “Northeast Corridor” nomenclature for the rail route…MARC calls it the Penn Line; SEPTA merely refers to it as the R2 segment from Newark DE to PHL and the R7 from PHL to Trenton NJ; Metro-North’s name, of course, is the New Haven Line; CDOT refers to its Amtrak-operated service between New Haven and Old Saybrook/New London as Shore Line East; and MBTA’s commuter service from South Station to Providence goes by the name of Attleborough Line.
-Robert King
Larry, RedbirdR33
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
The schedule shows that Main Line trains won't stop in Secaucus.
#3 West End Jeff
http://members.lycos.co.uk/raggajohn/qanda.html
However, they won't because it cause people to not only bring cameras onto the subway but use them to take pictures of the subway. Horrors!
-Robert King
http://www.rgriffin.ukshells.co.uk/rly/1959final.html
However, they won't because it cause people to not only bring cameras onto the subway but use them to take pictures of the subway. Horrors!
-Robert King
Special railfan excursions are great, but not everyone can make it to them. Regular service is better. Every A Division T/O knows how to operate an R-33, and most passengers probably wouldn't bat an eyelash.
If it is a problem, discharge at Chambers.
???. Details!!!
Then the TA may not bother with this.
Still, Iencourage you to submit your idea in writing. If they go for it, great. If not, at least you tried.
It will be a sad day for those of us who appreciated the Redbirds. OTOH life goes on and nothing lasts forever.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
MagLev technology has again and again been debunked as an amazing waste of time, energy and money. It is nothing more than a scientific make-work trophy project with little practical value outside being an amusement ride.
It's like advocating monorails as the next big thing in urban transport.
In constructing this new system FORGET ABOUT ANY EXISTING INFRASTRUCTURE!
My plan, basically follows I-80 from NYC to CHI with rather few intermedate stops. It is a all new structure. I would probably build the terminal under the southern end of Central Park. Going through its own tunnels it comes out elevated across the NJ Swamps and finds its way to the I-80 ROW where it runs in a straight line (sort-of) to Chicago.
It is about 700 miles, and at 250 mph, that would be about four hours including intermediate stops. That is Close enough to compete with air lines, since they have a high amount of waiting and ground transport time.
Elias
How and why did you choose that number? The top high-speed trains of the world only go up to 186mph right now. I'm not sure why they are sticking to a 300km/h speed limit. In order to do 250mph you'd have to overcome whatever obstacles are hindering the TGV and the Japanese Bullet Trains. So your design couldn't just be an "off the shelf" TGV system, for example, instead you'd have to do a lot of innovating.
Maglev overcomes the first one by levitating the train a very short distance above the ground using magnets. The only energy necessary is to raise the train a very small amount and to compensate for air resistance.
If the trains run in vacuum sealed tunnels, there will be no air resistance and trains will run until a force acts upon them. Therefore acceleration will be able to continue at a comfortable amount until the mid-point, there will be no maximum speed.
I agree that maglev is a waste of money. So is NASA. While we're at it, so was all that stuff Orville and Wilbur Wright did down in North Carolina. They should have just given up and figured out the best way to make trains and boats faster.
The top high-speed trains of the world only go up to 186mph right now
196 mph, actually. Renfe’s Madrid-Barcelona AVE line in Spain is supposed to have trains operating at 220 mph in regular service when it opens. Also, California, with their HSR plans, are looking for a 200-mph cruising speed.
Worthy of reminding is the highest test speed of the TGV, at some 327 mph.
Perhaps they could do better running in a glass tube or something, but I suspect not since then it would need to push a slug of air rather than just moving some of it aside.
Elias
There would be little or no damage at all. It will all be done with the Tunnel Borring Machine well below existing infrastructure.
Two inbound platforms, two outbound platforms, service facilities across the river in Queens.
Elias
I shouldn't think so. Departures would have to be 30 minutes apart to keep proper spacing on the line. One train every 60 minutes off of a track is not too taxing. Of course I am not thinking of multiple routings from Manhattan as in the heydays of Penn Station.
Elias
I was interested in the NJT response to the derailment. They propose putting more conductors on trains that have heavy ridership and equipping the crew with radios and bull horns.
In our subway, if the third rail goes dead, is the pa system functional and reliable? If not, perhaps the MTA should consider bull horns also.
Here's the MTA article:
MTA response
and the NJT article:
NJT response
Ok, but that would be a complete lie.
Ok, they are both easy, and comfortable and fast when they are actually moving and not stopped because of a delay. Although, they are no where near as fast as they could be, and they need to be faster to compete with the airlines. I would not call the Regional trains economical. In summary, out of your PR line, I really only agree with the "comfortable" part.
1) Railroads must build, own, maintain (or pay rent for these) the right of way for their entire route. Airlines do not.
2) The subsidies that opponents of Amtrak (usually right wingers) decry are direct and obvious. The hugh subsides airlines get are not. The gov't pays the cost of maitaining the air traffic control system and airports are owned by gov't agencies and leased to the airlines usually at favorable rates. The same applies to highways (in reference to truck competition to frieght RR or bus or private car competition to Amtrak). The cost build and maintain highways are paid by the government, but user fees (registration costs, gas taxes are often not even fully dedicated to these public facilites).
3) Amtrak, as are all passenger RR in the world, depend on gov't subsidies; as such they are subject to political gamesmanship. Important Senators and/or congressmembers can often demand Amtrak run a train through their district that loses tremedous amounts of money. The cross county trains are good examples, Amtrak is at times forced to run trains that provide little usefulness because if they don't an important committee chairperson might be offended if that train didn't stop in their district.
For these reasons and I would assume others, a PR effort, while maybe helpful, will not "save" Amtrak.
1. Have the federal government pick up the cost of maintaining and improving the ROW, as it does for major highways, if AMTRAK owns it.
2. Require that states exempt freight rail lines from property taxes, or at least provide a partial exemption, if those lines are used for passenger trains not operated by the railroad. The reason is that if a certain number of passenger trains are allowed to use a ROW, it is more like a public road than a private one.
Use the tax exemption to replace the fees paid to private railroads. If passenger rail use of the line exceeds the level where freight railroads believe it to be fair, or if the government wants major investment, purchase the line by eminent domain.
3. Require states and localities to pay to maintain and rebuild passenger stations. They are public buildings with, ideally, more uses than just rail passengers.
4. Require AMTRAK or whoever else to break even on the cost of buying, maintaining and operating THE TRAINS, not the ROW and stations.
As part of that, get rid of the ridiculous severance rule - when Amtrak discontinues a route, its employees get two years of severance pay.
As part of that, get rid of the ridiculous severance rule - when Amtrak discontinues a route, its employees get two years of severance pay. With a rule like that, it's far cheaper to run a line once a week with no passengers than to kill it completely.
As part of that, get rid of the ridiculous severance rule: When Amtrak discontinues a route, its employees get two years of severance pay. With a rule like that, it's far cheaper to run a line once a week with no passengers than to kill it completely.
Have the federal government pick up the cost of maintaining and improving the ROW, as it does for major highways, if AMTRAK owns it
The federal government already does that through the much-villified “Amtrak subsidies,” but nowhere near the degree necessary. Also, you are constraining the spending to 80 percent of the Northeast Corridor and 100 miles of the Chicago-Detroit corridor—since the federal government is involved with the entire interstate highway system, they ought to exercise the same involvement with non-Amtrak-owned roads where Amtrak operates…either that, or build more corridors for Amtrak only, the most economical way of doing that being to designate abandoned main lines as Amtrak-only and putting the investment into said corridors, or both.
Require that states exempt freight rail lines from property taxes, or at least provide a partial exemption, if those lines are used for passenger trains not operated by the railroad. The reason is that if a certain number of passenger trains are allowed to use a ROW, it is more like a public road than a private one
Many states have repealed their taxation of railroad ROW, but still many have not, one of the most recent and glaring examples being New York state, over which CSX waged a quite infamous battle with NY. Indeed, the taxation married with the ICC regulations of 1950 related to additional signaling was a major factor in the slowdown of the post-war high-speed-rail experiments and speeds of varnish prior to 1950.
The tax laws directly affected the ROW; the laws of NY, for one example, increasing the tax rate by number of tracks on ROW (which is what drops four-track mains to two tracks or one track) and weight of rail, which itself contributes to lower speeds due to fear of damage.
Use the tax exemption to replace the fees paid to private railroads
Only if the tax breaks thereof are sufficient to cover the costs incurred to the railroads due to varnish operation by Amtrak or whatever other entity. Beyond that, the federal and state goverments should offer additional compensation and MOW funding.
Require states and localities to pay to maintain and rebuild passenger stations. They are public buildings with, ideally, more uses than just rail passengers
That would be quite difficult depending on the funds of states and municipalities, and may be unconstitutional if no federal assistance is forthcoming to help with such.
Require AMTRAK or whoever else to break even on the cost of buying, maintaining and operating THE TRAINS, not the ROW and stations
No need to force such edicts on Amtrak or the operators of other passenger trains if you have relieved them of the massive burden of providing for infrastructure cost. Just don’t start chipping away at their capital and maintenance budgets for rolling stock as a consequence.
http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Conrail/Breakup/cr_bos.gif
http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Conrail/Breakup/cr_nyc.gif
I invite you to post at whatever you were going by.
for ownership see :
http://www.chinet.com/~plaws/rail/whozisit.html
it gives actual milage for each agency.
Main Line New Haven to Boston
Dorchester Branch
Middleboro Main Line
so those are the official STB names
Main Line Mill River to Springfirld
Main Line NEw York to CP 216
New York Terminal District
Empire Connection
Main Line New York to Philadelphia
Lehigh Line Connection
36th Street Connection
Main Line Philadelphia to Washington
Washington Terminal
Main Line Philadelphia to Harrisburg
For those of you interested in streetcar and subway models, as well as those interested in visiting the Shore Line Trolley Museum ...
The New York City Model Transit Association, in cooperation with the
Shore Line (Branford) Trolley Museum, is proud to announce that the
Fall meet will be held at the museum - October 17th, 18th and 19th,
2003. The meet will be held in conjunction with Branford's annual
Railfan Day. The theme of the meet will be, Models Of Preserved Cars
in Museums.
The admission will be the price of a regular ticket for museum entry.
Carbarns will be emptied out for our use.
There will be dealers, operating model layout modules, door prizes,
model contests, clinics and a white elephant table for individuals to
dispose of some of your unwanted treasures.
Thanks,
Steven Olsen
NYC Model Transit Association
http://home.att.net/~sctransit/NYCMTA1.htm
One question - I know Joel Lovitch (MTS imports) was planning a show in King of Prussia around that time, but the Holiday Inn he usually has the show in is undergoing renovations, and his plans are thusfar inconclusive. Is this being done in place of his? (I guess I just don't want to see two meets with the same theme at the same time).
--Mark
All Aboard! Car 629 now boarding at Sprague Station for Short Beach, making stops at Farm River Road, Picnic Grove, Quarry Trestle/Nature Trail and elsewhere as requested...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Jimmy
: ) Elais
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just to clear up any possible confusion, the Fall Trolley Meet in King of Prussia was cancelled. There will be a meet at the Electric City trolley museum at Steamtown (in Scranton, PA) on the 12th of October, 2003 and the Fall Model Trolley & Rapid Transit Meet at the Shore Line Museum, on October 18 & 19, 2003. Many dealers will attend both meets.
Flyers for both meets are being mailed out this week. If you were on the mailing list for the Fall Trolley meets at King of Prussia or the Model Trolley & Transit meets in Kendall Park, NJ you will receive a flyer for the Trolley Meet at Branford.
Thanks,
Steve Olsen
NYC Model Transit Association
http://home.att.net/~sctransit/NYCMTA1.htm
Here is an extract for those who do not wish to link;
"The London Underground uses the four rail system for two main reasons. Firstly, it was originally required by the government to limit the voltage drop along the line to 7 volts. This was intended to reduce problems caused by stray currents causing electrolysis affecting utility pipes and cables. The fourth rail was chosen, partly as a cheaper option and partly for signalling reasons. As direct current track circuits were to be used to control signals, an insulated return system for the traction current was an effective way of separating the two systems."
I recall reading that the early telegraph and telephone companies objected to a third rail and ground return circuit being used, as stray traction currents might disrupt their relatively sensitive circuits. The later widespread adoption of third rail systems around London would indicate that such fears were unfounded.
Andrew.
Electrical surge caused wheel to overheat
Friday, August 01, 2003
BY JOE MALINCONICO
Star-Ledger Staff
NJ Transit officials yesterday revised their explanation for the July 14
derailment in Secaucus, saying the train's wheel apparently overheated and
fell off because of an electrical surge and not because it was struck by
debris on the tracks.
The agency became aware of the more far-reaching problem on the Arrow III
rail cars, the type that was involved in the derailment, after a wheel on
another train overheated last Friday night. That prompted emergency
inspections of all 230 Arrow III cars last weekend.
Eventually, NJ Transit removed 91 cars from service for repairs and
discovered problems with equipment designed to prevent power surges from
overheating the wheels. Mechanics later found evidence that a similar
problem probably occurred on the derailed train, Executive Director George
Warrington said.
As a result, the agency is putting all 230 of its Arrow III cars through a
second round of emergency inspections this weekend and has changed the way
it routinely checks and cleans the machinery designed to prevent the power
surges.
"While we believe that there is a high degree of probability that this is
the root cause of the bearing's failure on the derailed train, we will await
results from our continuing investigation and metallurgy studies before
drawing a final conclusion," Warrington said during NJ Transit's monthly
board meeting yesterday.
In the aftermath of the derailment, in which none of the 1,200 passengers
was seriously injured, Warrington also said the agency would increase the
size of some of its train crews. Instead of assigning at least one conductor
for every four passenger cars, NJ Transit would operate with at least one
conductor for every three cars. No timetable was given.
The derailed train had only two crew members because one was late for work
that day, officials said. Under the new policy, it would have had four
conductors.
Officials also promised various improvements in the way the agency handles
emergencies and communicates with passengers during breakdowns. Angry
passengers have flooded NJ Transit with complaints about the flow of
information during the repeated service disruptions in July.
"I think everyone will welcome that," said Leonard Resto, president of the
New Jersey Association of Railroad Passengers. "People understand that
things happen, but the communications really fell apart."
Warrington said NJ Transit would:
a.. Send the nearest train to the scene of an incident to rescue stranded
passengers. This will take effect immediately, he said.
a.. Give all train crew members radios within 90 days. Previously, only one
employee on each train had a radio.
a.. Equip all ticket offices with pagers within 30 days to provide workers
with the latest information about service problems.
a.. Create emergency response teams within 90 days to go to incident scenes
and main terminals during a crisis.
a.. Review the system's public address systems within 45 days to determine
if they need repair or replacement.
a.. Supply all trains and stations with bullhorns in case public address
systems fail. No timetable was offered.
The failings of the agency's emergency response policies became apparent
during the derailment and Tuesday night's service shutdown along the
Northeast Corridor, which occurred when an Amtrak train ripped down an
overhead power line.
"The corporation is not here to make excuses, our job here is to find
solutions," said state Transportation Commissioner Jack Lettiere, who is
also NJ Transit's chairman. "We're not good if we say we're good. We're good
as a corporation if our customers say we're good."
That may take some time.
"They're clueless what to do when there's a problem," said Barry Seiden of
Highland Park, who was among the commuters stuck in Tuesday night's mess. "Y
ou would think after 9/11, they would have emergency plans in place. But
it's clear they don't have a plan."
"I have a bitter taste from Tuesday night," said Joe McDonald of South
Brunswick, whose trip home took about four hours. "I'm glad to hear they
want to make improvements, but I'm from Missouri on this one. Show me some
results."
Joe Malinconico covers transportation. He can be reached at
jmalinconico@starledger.com or (973) 392-4230.
It's good to see NJT will be introducing some policy revisions. It's justifiable to criticize them for not having done that already, but the important thing is that they're doing it now.
Yeah, what's wrong with simply hollering whatever stuff needs to be announced? Who needs bullhorns? Most of these conductors have a healthy pair of lungs. Use them!
The biggest joke is how they all of a sudden want to issue radios to ALL crew members. The fact is, a few months ago, they were requesting that all trainmen who were not working Conductor jobs at that time hand in their radios because there weren't enough to go around to just CONDUCTORS!!
Oh Yeah, I go through two batteries on my radio each year at about $90 each.
Elias
Jimmy
Be glad there are pictures, movies, video to keep the memories alive.
A private company however can issue dividends.
As Pigs said, "regular" for profit corporations may do one of two things with profits 1) Pay out cash in the form of dividends to the shareholders (the owners of a corporation) or 2) Re-invest the money in the business. Profits that are not paid out in dividents may be carried as cash for an indeterminate time frame. They are referred to as "Retained Earnings". And re-investing in the business can come in many forms. The obvious is buying new equipment or making major improvements to existing equipment. However it can also be in the form of retiring debt.
Non-profit and government organizations handle things a bit differently. I believe the "profit" (that is money in excess of expenses) is held in various funds that ultimately are used to fund future operations. Non profit and governments don't draw as strict a line between expenses and capital spending, so the "profit" is harder to determine. I'm not overly familar with accounting for non profits.
David
It's an excess of revenues over expenses in the current year, as far as I am aware. Where it sits within the five-year budgeting process, I'm not sure -- it seems to have been intended from the start that the "surplus" be generated this year so it can be applied to future years.
David
Got to cover those rising payments pensioners somehow.
David
Besides, I'm not suggesting anything that would cost passengers more than they've been paying. I'm just suggesting that the increases be made on a steady, predictable basis instead of in sudden, large spurts. That would make budgeting easier for customers (since they wouldn't be hit with a fare increase they weren't expecting when they began the year) and the MTA's agencies.
David
Know where to send montly pass for refund and other details?
Please let me know, and spread the word.
Thanks.
...once you go to NJ Transit's homepage.
Amtrak should develop/purchase high speed diesels, or look back at the Turbotrain, which was the fastest Amtrak train to be tested (even faster than Acela by 2 mph 170 vs. 168). These trains would be used to prevent the huge cost of electrification. Long-distance trains (Chicago-LA, etc.) would not get these engines. Turbotrains have high speed, but low horsepower. Trains that traverse the Rockies would need high speed for flat areas, but large amounts of horspower for climbs. Maybe a larger engine and AC motors should be installed in Genesis locomotives. These improvements should allow for 125 mph to be the lowest speed. This plan is a set of equipment changes. Some infrastructure would need to be upgraded so these speeds can be safely attained. I think the cost of this whole upgrade would be between 1-2 billion.
It does not matter how fast the engine or the train set can go...
What matters is that it is on old ROW limited to 89 mph, and running on rails shared by freight trains running at 55 mph. And the freight trains are not going to get out of your way. The host RR might make efforts to expidite AMTK trains, but if AMTK falls behind schedule, all bets are off, and the RR will push its trains on in ahead of AMTK.
Bottom line.... It is not how fast your train can go, but how fast the RR is running. Same thing on NYCT: You know the 44s can do 70 mph, but you have never sen it.
Elias
As a matter of fact, YES!
They want the most reliable delivery for the least dollars.
Look at some of the commodities that travel by rail:
Coal: There are endless strings of coal cars moving east, and of empty hoppers moving west. As long as they do not run out of coal, they don't give a rats posterior appendage how fast the coal moves. It is true that with slower trains you need more carsets, but that price is miniscule when compared with the cost of double tracking a western mainline, which is what it would take to make faster trains.
Grain: The harvest comes but once a year, what need is there for speed. Farmers out here bitch about high freight prices (because the price is paid at Miniapolis, putting the shipping costs in their pockets. Its not fair, but that is life.) They also bitch about a shortage of grain cars and of slow delivery of empty cars to the regional elevators. But handling short cuts of cars is more expensive than running unit trains. So there is a big discount for unit trains, but farmers (and their lawmakers) bitch that the little man gets neither a good price nor car availability.
Auto Parts: The Auto manufactures are HAPPY to have slow trains, just so long as they get the parts on time. (Just in time delivery). They look at the railroad as one long wharehouse. One that they don't have to pay for.
Bulk Lumber: Why did you want this to arrive sooner? Did you want to pay twice as much for your house?
As a matter of fact, sooner or later you have to pay for EVERYTHING that travels on a train. I take it you LIKE paying high prices!
Elias
Yean, Right... Can't you just picture 115 car coal trains careeing through town at 150 mph.
What a waste. The coal will get there when it is needed anyway, so nobody is going to pay the extra needed to get it there faster.
Indeed, the coal trains run on our line, and we seldom if ever see a mixed freight, although there are some grain trains an a few local peddler freights.
The faster freights run on the Great Northern routing through Minot, where also prowls the Empire Builder. But no freight carrier is going to bopther with faster speeds when their bottlenecks are the classification yards anyway.
Elias
Jimmy
Elias
Amtrak should develop/purchase high speed diesels
You are assuming that the trains are the problem—they are not. The ICC, back in 1950, ruled that no tracks with CTC only could host passenger (or freight) train service at speeds of 80 mph or higher; if railroads wanted their varnish to go faster, they had to install additional signaling at their own expense. The FRA continues to uphold that ruling. Just about all of Amtrak’s current fleet of diesel locomotives is geared for 110 mph operation. Also, to be permitted to operate at speeds above 125 mph, assuming properly maintained and signaled trackage, locomotives have to pass the FRA’s stringent Tier II crashworthiness (and emissions) specifications—no current Amtrak diesels adhere to Tier I specs (which are lower than Tier II) and are currently being “grandfathered.”
Also, no matter the top speed of the trainset, FRA limits Tier II operation on shared trackage with freights to 150 mph.
or look back at the Turbotrain
The UAC Turbotrain would never pass Tier II specs today; not to mention, being a gas-turbine-powered trainset, it would not pass emissions either. Bombardier had developed a gas-turbine Acela Express-equivalent power car with the cooperation of the FRA—one of the major problems experienced with the UAC Turbotrain, that of high fuel consumption while idling (the RTLs also have this problem), was not solved.
Amtrak missed its window with the UAC trainsets; what ought to have been done with them is have them run GCT-Chicago high speed with an upgraded Chicago Line, but I do not believe that Congress was funding HSR improvements at the time.
Maybe a larger engine and AC motors should be installed in Genesis locomotives
Larger means heavier with diesel locomotives, and since you are not worried about engine torque to pull the train, you don’t want heavier, especially since that also means higher fuel consumption and weight restrictions on certain bridges and other parts of railroad lines.
Besides, have you heard about GE’s Evolution 12-cylinder prime-mover? They are available with up to 6,000 horsepower. The base model features some 4,400 horsepower, 200 hp more than the 16-cylinder in the current Genesis models. Too little too late to help out with dieselized HSR, seems to me, but one never knows…
Also, with climbing up grades, you need tractive effort, not flat-out horsepower. High horsepower is no good if you are spinning your drivers while trying to go up a grade.
Lots of money, above and beyond $2 billion per annum even, is necessary to make Amtrak work properly. JMHO.
As you have heard, the rising extent of obesity has become the nation's most talked about health issue. Some city planning types have focused in on our automobile-oriented lifestyle as a culprit -- less walking, and thus fewer calories burned in the normal course of life (the mechanization of housework and the shift to office work must be as more more important, but lets leave that aside). People have less time for scheduled exercise to make up the difference.
Since I've had kids, and thus very little time, the number one source of exercise I do get is going out of my way, on foot, to use a subway station other than the one nearest my home. Walking through Prospect Park, or over the Brooklyn or Manhattan Bridge, is a big part of this. It adds 15 to 30 mintues to the trip to work, but I end up walking 1.0 to 1.5 miles.
As our Senator Chucky Schumer has demonstrated, the best way to get positive PR is to make a proposal, however minor, on an issue that is in the next (preferably on a Sunday night for Monday's papers).
So here is my suggestion. Using posters on subway cars and in stations, NYCT could promote additional walking and biking in the course of using the subway. Call it the subway health club.
Subway stations on each side of the East River Bridges could be made MetroCard Transfers, with directional signs added to the pedestrian entrances to those bridges. The same could, perhaps, be done at Prospect Park and other parks, with people encouraged to walk across the park to board the train (good way to shift some ridership from the Lex to the B/C.
And bike lockups could be added at terminal stations with substantial mezzanines available. Station agents, freed from token selling, could instead provide access to the locked areas -- only to those who have bikes to put in or receipts for bikes put in earlier. Booths could be placed adjacent to the bike parking area, with the gate released from within and a HEET to get out after the bike is deposited. If people take a bike rather than ride the bus to the subway the TA loses nothing -- it's a free transfer in any event.
In short, it may be a good idea to jump on a bandwagon. And it may be useful someday for people to be used to getting off the train on one end of the Many B and Willie B, walking over, and getting on a train at the other end.
Guaranteed to take off the pounds.
Sell the subway, period. Provide the bike lock-ups, make bike carrying easier (post clearly which car they go in), post more than just the area maps. Really PUSH the recreational and walking opportunities at each station. Make the booth people into salesmen for the tourists: "the west side bikeway starts at the Intrepid -- try it!"
One of the reasons I love NYC is that I've lost 20 pounds and didn't even notice. You guys are ALL skinnier than midwesterners.
Take the F to 63rd and Lex.
Senior subway historians, please comment. Thank you.
It's good to see NJT will be introducing some policy revisions. It's justifiable to criticize them for not having done that already, but the important thing is that they're doing it now.
Yeah, what's wrong with simply hollering whatever stuff needs to be announced? Who needs bullhorns? Most of these conductors have a healthy pair of lungs. Use them!
The biggest joke is how they all of a sudden want to issue radios to ALL crew members. The fact is, a few months ago, they were requesting that all trainmen who were not working Conductor jobs at that time hand in their radios because there weren't enough to go around to just CONDUCTORS!!
Oh Yeah, I go through two batteries on my radio each year at about $90 each.
Elias
1. Was the IRT hit by deferred maintenance and/or grafitti this badly when compared to the BMT/IMD?
2. How did one identify the correct train when the entire rollsign was covered in a thick coat of paint?
3. How did the grafitti artists ever have the time to create such a big and detailed piece of work? Did they just do it while the trains were inside stations and police would just look the other way, or was it other things?
One didn't. One either assumed it was their train or just asked the conductors or T/O.
3. How did the grafitti artists ever have the time to create such a big and detailed piece of work? Did they just do it while the trains were inside stations and police would just look the other way, or was it other things?
They would hit the trains in the yard.
A big problem was that trains were commonly stored on unused express tracks during off hours. Unlike the yards, which were insecure enough, security on these tracks was virtually nonexistent.
A major blow against griffiti was adding secure capacity to yards.
Jimmy
It was a wild and wooly era.
Tim
This is still done, specifically on the northbound Queens Line express track (75th Avenue to just beyond Parsons Boulevard), the southbound 4th Avenue express track (36th to 59th Street), the middle track on the Jamaica Avenue el from 111-117 Street (2 trains), and the southbound 8th Avenue Line in Brooklyn (Clinton Avenue to Shepherd Avenue), among other places.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
During and after the February snowstorm, there was hardly any express service, except perhaps above ground.
Simple. Trains in those days used to have marker lights. If you knew what markeers your train used, you didn't need to see anything else.
I was waiting for a (QB) train one afternoon, saw they yellow and white markers in the correct place and got on. Never noticed that it was signed up as something else.
Boy did we ever have a trainfull of surprised people when we headed off on the (QB) Routing.
I guess they didn't understand the Announcements that the conductor was making. Even he corerectly identifed the train as a (QB).
: ) Elias
Marker lights in the 70's and 80's????
David
http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/markerlights.html
Hey Kev, I thought for sure you'd pull up a D train pic with a green-green setting.:)
Those are not "marker-lights"
The MARKER LIGHTS do tell the routings, and that is exactly what they were there for, so the towers could tell who was coming at them.
The Marker Lights predate roll signs and route letters.
Elias
When I saw the bulkhead of a 32 a couple of years ago after M-K *phucked* 'em, I damn near cried ... no markers at all anymore. The rooftop bulkheads of the 32's were as nice as Arnines. And BRIGHTER. :(
They have gone out of business/bought out, right?
M-K has been sucked into the "Washington Group" not to be confused with Halliburton, Enron, or Bechtel even though they're the same folks now. M-K ... rebuilding *IRAQ* for YOUR appeasement. Those guys REALLY screwed up the 32's. :(
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
The 32's were CLASSY steeds ... I turned them down when an Arnine job swap was available with people who didn't WANT to take that Arnine relay "next out" or with people who the TMO said, "you've screwed up the railroad enough, LET McAleavey take it" ... but 32's weren't so shabby - it was the 42's and the 44's I despised. TOO cushy for the 42's, and the 44's with that stupid joystick (PRE-GOH) ... no WAY.
I still liked my Arnines - they braked like a REAL train - SMEE's were something I never got the hang of out of fear that if I got comfy with SMEE's, I could never SAFELY run an AMUE again ... and when you develop a "feel" for the AMUE's, best to STAY with those. :)
I liken it to going from a stickshift to an automatic. Neither is a problem for me; I can go back and forth. Never did left-footed braking with an automatic although my father did for years.
Too bad the two of you never worked together as a crew on the D line.
Stillwell was like that - "keep your head down and always wear your sports cup" ...
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
A contributory cause, quite possibly. In the case of the R27's and 30's, however, the immediate cause of their premature scrapping was the decision to go with an entirely air-conditioned fleet. Conversion of these two car types was simply not cost-effective for technical reasons.
As to the cost of the GOH program, I don't know what that $1 billion figure is supposed to represent. According to EVOLUTION OF NEW YORK CITY SUBWAYS by Gene Sansone, here are the average overhaul costs:
R-26: $187,876 x 110 cars = $20,666,630
R-28: $172,000 x 100 cars = $17,200,000
R-29: $306,000 x 236 cars = $72,216,000
R-30/30A: $317,000 x 162 cars = $51,354,000
R-32: $576,000 x 10 cars = $5,760,000 (GE)
R-32: $476,000 x 584 cars = $277,984,000 (MK)
R-33: $381,000 x 494 cars = $188,214,000
R-33S: $195,600 x 39 cars = $7,628,400
R-36: $164,000 x 424 cars = $69,536,000 ($163,000 for NAB & MK; $164,000 for NYCT)
R-38: $400,000 x 196 cars = $78,400,000
R-40: $399,000 x 396 cars = $158,004,000
R-42: $428,000 x 286 cars = $122,408,000 (MK)
R-42: $688,000 x 110 cars = $75,680,000 (NYCT)
R-44: $548,000 x 140 cars = $76,720,000 (MK)
R-44: $612,000 x 140 cars = $85,680,000 (NYCT)
R-46: $464,000 x 752 cars = $348,928,000
TOTAL: $1,546,296,400
David
Sorry, that's what I meant. Since the R30's departure they really weren't able to give train lines on the B division enough additional service. Also I notice that the NYCT R44's cost more to overhaul than the MK units, why is that?
David, do you [or anyone who knows] know the cost of the 110 R10's through the GOH?
Jimmy
Of course, the J, M and LL were consistently the worst lines. We got the oldest cars. As a child I thought the city was deliberatley looking to kill the J train, since it was running old crap on it and the outer end was being chopped down. And the track fires! About one a month in my neighborhood in the early 1980's.
Graffiti started on the IRT west side and worked its way to the rest of the system.
I believe that graffiti first appeared in 1972 or 1973. How long did it take for it to spread systemwide?
Same thing happens with vandalism and hanging out. I used to live near a park entrance which was unpatroled. First kids came in by foot at night, quietly, and disappeared into the woods. If they had cars, they parked them a distance away. Then they came in talking. Then shouting to each other. Then the litter increased. Then bottles. Then bottles loudly smashed on the sidewalk. The cars started to be parked right in front, then they started to drive them into the park. A fence was put up and rammed down. This whole thing escalated over the course of two years before the local authorities cracked down.
Why these things always seem to escalate until they become intolerable, maybe some shrink could explain.
> >2. How did one identify the correct train when the entire rollsign was covered in a thick coat of paint? < <
From my experience (rode the subway everyday) the front roll signs were usually legible. Sometimes you would get a train with no front roll signs, then I would usually look around to see if I could spot a side roll sign intact. If there were no signs, you would just get on, and hope you were on the right train (or you could ask a crew member).
Jimmy
[Note to the slow: I'm being sarcastic.]
I remember in the late 70's and early 80's that many times even the windows were grafittied over. So it wasn't just a problem of knowing what train you were on, it was also a problem once you were on the train to know what station you were at, as many times you could not see out the windows at all. And some of the doors did not even have windows!
Larry, RedbirdR33
I think the R62/68 fleet is "Deferred Maintenance"
-the roll signs are unappealing and get torn apart
-those plastic encasements that house the lights and are used for
ads seem to chip away on their own
-Sratchitti=Graffitti is EVERYWHERE-how can MTA claim 100% graffitti-free
Windows
Wall panels scratched-beaten in
seats
_I think this fleet badly in need of interior overhaul. The only efforts I have seen are turning the Window frames on doors around
(filthy side in) replace glass on doors and rollsigns only to be scratched again. The new floors are the only nice touch
Oh yeah the IRT really got it but the A, J, L & M in particular on the IND/BMT was hit hard as well.
2. How did one identify the correct train when the entire rollsign was covered in a thick coat of paint?
Sometimes you didn't have ANY rollsigns and then the PA systems weren't all there so you basically had to hope thta you were correct.
3. How did the grafitti artists ever have the time to create such a big and detailed piece of work? Did they just do it while the trains were inside stations and police would just look the other way, or was it other things?
The hit train yards and lay up tracks; when it was more common to lay up trains on non revenue tracks.
This news was announced today by the MTA. This report appears in an Indian newspaper.
Capital Construction Company
So, will the rest of the capital program migrate to the massive Department of Subways? (CPM was also building a bunch of new bus depots, but unless the proposed mergers go through we're about done).
My observation is the MTA has a dual culture fighting for its soul. You have a cynical civil service culture, with goldbricking in the rank and file and CYA and politics in management. But you also have a progressive culture, with pride in workmanship in the rank and file and committment to transit in management. He is part of the more progressive culture.
A lot of people who follow this are concerned they'll be moved out from under his leadership. So we'll have to see what happens. On the other hand, having the capital program be a whole different company from those who operate the subways doesn't sound like a good way to get help when you need G.O.s to get things built, so you could argue that ongoing maintenance should be more intergrated with the operating departments.
We'll see.
Didn't the Department of Education do something similar, transferring school construction responsibilities to a separate entity? And wasn't it largely unsuccessful?
It was unsucessful because they did not decomission the internal board of education construction department. Both entities fought over every detail of school construction projects causing confusion with contrators as to who was in charge driving up costs. Bloomberg eliminated the internal construction planning department last year.
The problem was not the separate entitiy.
In the case of the MTA their is only one entitiy for construction. What this really means is that the mta will be better able to coordinate projects and negotiate better deals with contractors between all of it's operating agencies. Duplicate upper managemen wil be elliminated
Also, the Franklin Shuttle and Lenox Invert projects. He's a great guy and a brilliant engineer.
He certainly advertises his accomplishments by delaying many people. Consider what George H. Pegram, one of his predecessors did for the IRT when they third tracked the els.
"Imagine, if you can the taking up of an entire railroad bit by bit and replacing it with another line of twice the capacity, without the stoppage of a single train...
In the first place, it has been found necessary to take out all the old pillars along Park Row and put in new ones strong enough to bear the double load. This has been sucessfully done without the delaying of a single train. Every one of the fifty-two pillars that used to hold up the tracks has been supplanted with a steel column fifty-five feet high..."
From the New York World Sunday Magazine, May 1915.
I took some morning commute photos and then after work hung out at 5 Av for a while. Besides the ones linked below, I have more redbird and silverbird photos from today that I will upload Saturday night. Click the thumbnail for the photos. Enjoy!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Robert
According to the printed schedule, Main line trains will not stop at Secaucus. Furthermore, Secaucus is listed as a scheduled WEEKDAY stop on the Bergen line, starting August 4th. I don't think soooooooo...
Furthermore, NONE of the trains to/from Port Jervis have a scheduled stop at Secaucus. Not during the week. Not on weekends. Even the Port Jervis trains that make local Main line stops are skipping Secaucus, according to the schedule. Only Bergen line trains are going to stop at Secaucus.
So... As I rode past Secaucus, a few hours ago, I saw that a new paved two lane road, one in each direction, runs parallel to the Bergen tracks, from the street and the RR crossing just north of the station, to a medium-sized paved lot south of the station that runs all the way out to the Main line side, and the platforms over there. Looks like a passenger drop-off/pickup area. It's only one lane in each direction, only big enough for cars. Definitely not for buses.
As my train whizzed past, I spied a work crew installing big swing-style gates. They kind of look like the swing-style gates to an old tyme' bar in old western movies. Only bigger. The drop-off/pickup area will not be open 24x7.
There were a bunch of trucks parked at the Harmon Cove construction there, but nobody was there. One of the new tracks runs almost all the way out to the suspension bridge. They're going to cut in one of the tracks just as it comes off the bridge.
Finally, what's going on between Ramsey and Mahwah? We slowed down to a restricted speed just as we went under the big bridge under route 17, and there was a bunch of construction activity down there that looked like a new station platform in the process of being built! It ran for about 300-400 feet, next to the southbound track. I thought I saw something there last week, but I thought I was hallucinating. I looked carefully this week, and wouldn't you know it? I didn't see any poured concrete, but there was definitely something there that looked like it was meant to provide support for some kind of a platform, with support beams for a roof, placed every eight feet or so.
I've been driving through the area, above on route 17 almost every week now, for the last five months. They've had major construction going on there for quite some time. Lots of heavy equipment all over the place. I thought all they were doing is making a new ramp off route 17 to the local streets, or rebuilding the one that's there right now. But I always had the impression that there was just too much happening there just for one lousy highway ramp. They've cleared out a lot of area below the highway, as if they were making room for a large parking lot. And now there looks like some kind of a platform being built next to the track below.
I wasn't looking to see if anything was happening next to the northbound track. This is halfway between Ramsey and Mahwah stops, right under the Route 17 bridge. Perhaps it's a pedestrian underpass for Route 17, but I didn't see anything that looked like it might become a fence to keep people from wandering on the tracks.
CG
--jon
It was taken around Harrison St, a few blocks south of the terminal.
Best conversation snippet
Worker: Hey, aren't you going to videotape the urine stains on the platforms? (lots of laughs)
Me: Why? Aren't you going to have them over there? (pointing to the new station - more laughs)
Worker: Not for at least a week or so! (Even more laughs)
http://www.trainweb.org/oaksmodelrr/Video/Index.html
Chuck Greene (Philadelphia. Pa.)
BTW, could you perhaps post a video clip of me taking the photo of you tanking the video of me taking the photo? I would much appriciate it. I mean I made it onto KYW, but it would be really cool if I could make it onto that Oaks Model RR site. Feel free to use the photo that I took of you.
PS: Nice phaze III Amtrak shirt.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Thanks for asking, Mike.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Sounds like you should have broken out the old "life is full of these things called disapointments" speech.
Hmmm, sounds like he has a life.
Chuck Greene
In my grandson's case, he showed particular interest in crossing gates with the dinging bell in an audio picture book, so in one visit a favorite place became the Utica Ave crossing of the NJT Atlantic City line. Of course, visits are timed for when two trains will pass in five minutes.
BTW, John Almeida is a sight to behold when he's in action. When I photographed the Rockville Limited at Crum Lynne (after photographing it earlier in Radnor and riding it the previous day), John was at the platform across the tracks operating FIVE video cameras simultaneously.
Just got back from Frankford Terminal. I took 10 pictures and talked to a lot of very happy people. The see the light of day on Frankford Ave. is beautiful. They are running test trains back a forth over the new structure without a flaw. They still have to demolish a lot of the old structure from the old terminal building northward.
I'm glad I left when I did, it's raining quite hard now.
Everyone is very impressed with the changeover, many saying it's long overdue!
Let's hope the rush hour runs smoothly tomorrow. They were handing out flyers saying "most" of the bus routes will load at berths around the building, others will load on Bridge St. until further
construction makes more progress.
Chuck Greene
Hmmm, that sounds like the comments of an Anti-ELite.
Bill "Newkirk"
You always say that. I want to take a chance.
While Fred and Linda were tying the knot on this date in 1970, I was at Shea watching the Mets in person for the first time. Tom Seaver struck out 13 Padres and Cleon Jones hit a 3-run dinger as the Mets won, 5-3. After the game, we caught a 7 express back to Manhattan. It was a fast ride on the express track.
And on this date in 1920, the link from DeKalb to Prospect Park via Flatbush Ave. opened for business. BMT standards began operating on the Brighton line.
First train into FTC at 16:45 today. Cars 1095,1096,1103, and 1104.
Out of the yard, ran the outbound track, past the crossovers, then
onto the inbound track, then out again past the crossovers and onto
the outbound again, this time faster, then over the crossovers, back
through the inbound and into the yard.
(Reprinted from Philly Traction Groups) Thanks ,John , for the info!
Chuck Greene
SEPTA has proven that they are quite averse to any expansion of trolley lines—although the tracks and wires of the 15, 23 and 56 are extant and in excellent condition, they are only planning to switch the 15 back to trolley service from bustitution (and using ADA-compliant rebuilt PCCs at that). Do not expect any subway-surface lines, nor the trolley/interurban lines emanating from 69th Street Terminal, to experience any extension in the future.
Don’t know about on SEPTA property, but there is one Brill Bullet car currently stored in the elements adjacent to Steamtown’s Trolley Museum, up in Scranton PA.
Germantown Av is a great place to put a subway. But as far as I'm concerned, the trolley tracks should be removed permanently (they're murder on tires) and then a decision made about bus vs. trackless trolley.
The 23 still is a reasonable way to get downtown, to the Reading Terminal Market, and to the Broad Street line.
But since the car traffic is much heavier and isn't going away, and even bus tires get chewed up by the rails, the trolley tracks are doing more harm than good.
It isn't blasphemy, it's common sense.
You're entitled to your opinion, of course. Mine is that it's blasphemy AND it's common sense.
Links below are to Webshots photos of a Route 23 PCC charter. These charters have been commonplace the last coupla years, but their length of track covered has been shrinking. Keep your eyes open and grab the opportunity to ride one of these charters. They are usually mentioned on SubTalk, since Rockhill Trolley Museum has been sponsoring most of them, and SubTalkers Keystone Pete and Sparky (John S) give us a heads-up.
Town Hall, Germantown
2785 and 2728
reflection
Route 23
the route 23 (Germantown Av) trolley would be mostly a traffic obstacle
Traffic obstacle, eh? Did you used to work for National City Lines, sir…?
But as far as I'm concerned, the trolley tracks should be removed permanently (they're murder on tires)
Whaat? Never heard of such a thing. Perhaps you just buy cheap tires? I drive over trolley tracks on 12th Street in Philly quite often and my tires are not bothered.
Guess what—they built street trackage on Essex Street in Jersey City NJ for the HBLRT; I used to drive on there almost every weekend to check out the LRVs and guess what, my tires were OK. What a nonsensical thing to say. People drive on the street trackage in Philly day in and day out and nothing happens to their tires.
As for TTs, SEPTA is against them, substituting them with diesel bus quite often too. So forget about the 23 and 56 going TT too.
The street isn't wide enough to accommodate trolleys and trafficNor are the other streets where you have street-running in the City of Brotherly Love. That excuse holds no water.
Could you please refrain from replying to me. Whenever you see a post of mine, ignore it in the future. Just a request. Thank you so much.
What are you talking about? The street is wide enough. How do you think they ran trollies there in the first place? They still currently run trolleys sometime along the line with buses in service. This is as recent as last December. Trackless trolleys working there? Hmm, well new ones would most likely be 102 inches wide, which can't work on Germantown Ave, particularly in Chestnut Hill and Mount Airy.
But as far as I'm concerned, the trolley tracks should be removed permanently (they're murder on tires)
So, you are saying that the cobblestone streets have nothing to do with tire wear?
With a lot more traffic delays. There hasn't been trolley service there for some time. I lived along Germantown Av between 1999-2002. It's an overused road that is also the main thoroughfare for police and ambulance response.
"They still currently run trolleys sometime along the line with buses in service. "
That's for railbuff trips, where ONE TROLLEY does ONE TRIP on ONE day. That's a lot less than "occasionally." I would not want to be the one who has to tell the store owner being held up, or the spouse of a cardiac arrest victim, that the responding officer or ambulance took longer because Germantown Av is all jammed up.
"Trackless trolleys working there? Hmm, well new ones would most likely be 102 inches wide, which can't work on Germantown Ave, particularly in Chestnut Hill and Mount Airy."
San Francisco has trackless trolleys which are basically the same as standard buses in size.
"So, you are saying that the cobblestone streets have nothing to do with tire wear?"
No, but I'm saying the tracks make it worse. Frankly, it might not be abad idea to take out the cobblestones on Germantown Av and leave them only on side streets, if there are any left.
I like trolleys too, and I rode SEPTA everywhere when Ilived there. I like what SEPTA is doing on Girard. But we have to set aside railbuff issues (very hard on Subtalk, I know).
A regular trolley on Germantown Av is a bad idea.
"The Neoplans that are used exclusively on the 23, except for the Big Blue Bus that appears once in a blue moon, are 96 inches wide."
SEPTA policy (guided by the ADA Advisory committee, of which I was a part) does not favor the Neoplans long term, because they're getting on in years and because the wheelchair lifts are in the rear.
Note that Route 77 (further west on Germantown Av i Chestnut Hill) operates with newer coaches.
That's for railbuff trips, where ONE TROLLEY does ONE TRIP on ONE day. That's a lot less than "occasionally."
But it's amazing how often people waiting for a Route 23 bus try to get onto a PTC-painted PCC car on Germantown Ave when the charter stops for a red light. They are invariably people old enough to have ridden the trolleys and they just start to get on out of habit.
some photos from Oct 27, 2002, charter
Additional photos on page 1 and page 3
But they have a future - on Girard Av, perhaps even on Erie Av (line 56) where there is room to run them.
Hmm, what about the Route 100 extension to King of Prussia? That has been in the planning stages for quite a few years, and not too long ago (although I wasn't able to attend) they had a Public Meeting about it as well. They are still planning on building it using existing rail/right of ways somewhere. I saw a map of the proposed changes, but I'll have to ask my friend where he found it.
I'd also like to see the 34 extended to somehere, right now it just ends at Darby Creek, what am I supposed to do, transfer to a canoe? The ultimate extention would be out to 69th St terminal, via baltimore to Church La, then up 69th St, following the 108. But really, the 34 isn't bad, it collects more along the line than it moves terminal to terminal, so I guess I'd rather have a relatively high chance of getting a seat rather than having the trolley be filled at the first stop.
Also the 10 to Overbrook Station, again another connection to make the trolley 'go' somewhere, but it really isn't critical at all.
A real long-shot is the short extension of the 10 to Overbrook Station. That would be a 3 or 4 block extension. It makes sense, but when does sense enter into the picture regarding SEPTA?
$$$ - there's the problem.
I wouldn't say that...they may have a faster pick up, but they generally operate slowly on streets, not to mention the fact that they have to slow down significantly when following curves.
Chuck Greene
See here and here , and here.
Time does stand still there. Luckily I had the opportunity to visit the station twice.
Am I to understand some have ridden through on the 6? What level of "wrongness" is this act?
Many crews will insist that you leave, anyway. It's probably a good idea to do so. If you ride in the last car, it's unlikely that the crew will be aware of your existence.
There is a police officer stationed at City Hall around the clock. I don't know what he does if he notices a passenger on a train. When I saw him last, he was too engrossed in his newspaper to bother keeping an eye on the train.
Sounds like you're looking for CC LOCAL. I wonder if he's been through there?
Don't Have AOL Instant Messenger? Download it Free from www.aim.com!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Run a search for "Subway Sign" (without the " " ) and presto!
Post if you DON'T know ebay's website addy...
I would have ONLY linked the investigating "sources" to those
listings, brah.
Sane Ferry
Also, why do they sometimes put the sign in upside-down? I've seen this at least a dozen times...
I hope this isn't too confusing. It was a lot simpler on the BMT standards - all of their roller curtains were printed on both sides.
What has bothered me all these years is how many scrolls are installed backwards, so that the larger sign (meant for the larger window on the exterior of the car) shows up in the smaller inside window and can't be read properly. Of course the smaller sign is in the outside window, readable but looking ridiculously tiny.
I doubt that R-62 still has a B div roll...
http://transferpoint.bravepages.com/museum/transit_pictures/41/06.jpg
Av of the Americas Local
Queens Express
I'm not sure if that was on the first line of the third roll, because I was too far away to get a good look. Whatever the reading was, it took up practically ALL of the top portion of the sign.
The route serves the East Pasadena Station, at Sierra Madre Villa Avenue and Foothill Boulevard.
The normal 50-cent fare is waived for senior citizens age 65 and older, youths 16 and younger, and the disabled. However, all three groups must obtain an ID card through the city's Community Services Department.
Sierra Madre shuttles will stop at the Community Center, at Santa Anita Avenue and Sierra Madre Boulevard, and at several intersections along Grandview Avenue: Santa Anita, Stone House Road, Camillo Street, Canon Avenue, Mountain Trail Avenue, Baldwin Avenue, Auburn Avenue, Lima Street, Sunnyside Avenue and Michillinda Avenue, Keith said in her report.
Meanwhile, parking officers from a private company, Inter- Con, will begin patrolling South Pasadena next week. "Effective Monday, they'll be in full enforcement mode,' said police Chief Daniel Watson.
"The parking enforcement officers work the whole city, but certainly for a while they'll be spending the majority of their time and effort ... around the (Gold Line) station,' Watson said.
Fines for parking violators cost $20 or $25.
NOTE I DID NOT SEE ANY SIGNS SAYING YOU CANNOT PARK NEAR THE MISSION STATION THERE IS A OVERNIGHT PARKING SIGN BUT THAT IS ONLY FOR
2 AM TO APROX 5 AM in the stuck up city of south pas-!!.......??
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
BTW, There is an R-38 with an R-16 end on it's #2 end as well. (Signs blanked out)
Trip 1: Sat. Aug 23, 2003 - IRT SMEE - Flushing and Astoria
Trip 2: Sun. Aug 24, 2003 - R9s
After these trips, cars will be returned to the museum.
Trip 3 & 4
Sat & Sun Sept 27 & 28 - D Types + Steeplecab loco #6
IIRC, Cash fits the bill on day of trip ONLY.... not by mail.
And my vacation lands right in between them!
: ( Elias
(Just kidding, Before anyone posted other wise.)
Robert
Now where is R36 9685 on the 7 when you need him?
Hope to see many of you there as well!
When were you on R-9's that traveled the exact route that the 8/24 trip will take and stopped at the same photo stops?
Chuck Greene
Yippee! Yappie!! Yahooey!!!
I was kicking myself repeatedly for not going on the last ones!
I'll see ya at the trip!
I will be attending the IRT trip for sure.
Same deal, selling tickets at the day of the trip????
Did it ever occur to you that maybe these are the only dates the TA will allow? Running these trips is hard and getting all involved dept's to cooperate is even harder.
It is not as easy as you may think... Even when it comes to scheduling it.
I was also sharing my pain at not being able to ride.
I'm not cliaming that the TA or MOD orginizer is targeting the Jewish faith even though I've yet to see these trips scheduled for another's MAJOR religous holiday.
I'm not being facetious. To many people, Christmas is a day they're forced to take off from work even though they don't celebrate anything then. If the crowds at the movie theaters (and, formerly, at Ratner's) are any indication, the train would fill up in a jiffy.
What I'm trying to say is that while I know religious reasons may stop many people from going on a MOD trip on a Jewish Holiday, there is no religious reason stopping even the most devout Catholic from going on a MOD trip on Christmas (although the family might kill them).
Even Ash Wednesday is not a holy day of obligation.
1 - Christmas with the family vs. train trip?
2 - Boxing Day sales vs. train trip?
Decisions, decisions...
-Robert King
Most in the private sector do not have them off and are forced to use vacation time.
I may get struck down for saying this, but when the holidays fall out during the week, it makes for great railfanning: full weekday service, less crowding and no alternate side- which gives you a bigger selection of stations to park near. It's also a great time to go to Atlantic City or Connecticut if you like gambling. (Though one Yom Kippur when I went down to AC, not only did I get killed at the slots, but I tore my sneaker sole off on the boardwalk. The bus played HOME ALONE going down; FREE WILLY coming back. The same hygiene-challenged woman sat next to me both ways. THAT'LL learn me!)
It's also rough for observant Jews who must be out of commission three out of four entire weekends. Even the Orthodox hate when the holidays fall over the weekend. Sundays are their only day for leisure activities, like railfan trips.
The same scenario unfolded last year, when Branford had its New York Days over both days of Simchas Torah, and Try Transit was that Sunday. Bus Fest 2002 was on a Saturday only. The Metro-North Open House at Croton shops has always been on a Saturday only, because they can only disrupt their operations for one day.
I doubt the March of Dimes deliberate scheduled the September trips to fall out on Rosh Hoshahah weekend on purpose. They probably just neglected to check the calendar. Whether this would've made a difference, I don't know.
Like it or not, it's basically a Christian-dominated country we live in. That fact is all the more evident every December.
Not really. When the holidays fall out on weekdays I have to use up my vacation days. I'd rather they fall out on weekends when the railfanning is so-so, and have my vacation days to use for weekday railfan trips, such as this coming Monday in Philadelphia and the following Monday in Washington, DC. Everyone is invited to both of those trips. I will post details about the Washington, DC trip tonight.
If so, I'm out.
--Mark
Howard,
Since you brought up the subject, wasn't it the merchants of a non-
Christian persuasion, who capitalized on the December event and
removed "Christ" from Christmas and ran with "their" lucre?
8-( ~ Sparky
I hope this response is a to ALL.
8-) ~ Sparky
Bad move to select consists on the September dates, just switch the trains around and they can have the dates unchanged.
But we all know that the schedules on the September trips stink and there is little to change that weekend. The weekend before is just as bad because of Branford (Members Day weekend, 9/20 and 9/21.)
Member's Day at Branford is in April. It's Rapid Transit weekend at Branford on 09/20-21.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The weekend of the D-type trips in September is also the weekend for
"Workin On The Railroad" at Branford, so there is a conflict.
Has any thought been given to the fact of the least amount of construction within the system on the dates selected? >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
KOOL,
You've neglected one factor, seven of eight of the AMUEs & SMEEs to
be used on the trips 23\24 August belong to the Transit Museum.
They are to be returned to the Museum site, the week of 25 August. DAH. >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
Now this is everyone's last chance that weekend to ride the AMUE/SMEE cars before they return to Court St/IND station.
Hopefully just until next year's Anniversary celebrations. That IS why they fixed them up.....I hope.
Then when the fantrip is over they'd have to put them back, probably the day after. So basically that would mean at LEAST 3 days where several cars would be missing from the museum, disappointing patrons who can't afford/don't know about said fantrip.
Anyway that's just my theory.
On the August dates, or sometime that week, I hope to ride the Cape May Seashore Line RR. (It's my annual vacation on the Joisey Shore).
--Mark
til next time
Brian, please don't take this the wrong way... I am not criticizing your choice of how strictly you observe the tenets of the faith we share... but it's not that you can't attend, you choose not to do so because it conflicts with the way you choose to live. All of us make such decisions; my choices are different than yours, obviously (I am not a strict Sabbath observer nor do I keep strictly kosher, but I attend Friday night services with some regularity and will definitely be in shul on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur), but they are choices. Nothing is preventing me from attending any of the MOD trips, just as nothing is preventing you; both of us, for reasons of our own, are choosing not to attend on specific dates.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's your choice not to waver from it. I wouldn't criticize you for it and I agree that events taking place only on Saturday suck.
And everyone knows that Orthodox Jews DON'T have the choice to decide if they want to ditch their religion for the day and go for a subway ride.
It's your choice to be an Orthodox Jew.
Other people of other religions are allowed to to attend a service for a few hours and then do anything else they want for the rest of the day. They have the choice to spend the day at services and then with family and friends or to go to services and then to railfannning.
This is why I agree than Saturday-only events suck.
Nor am I... at least not Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. But I do not hold to the same level of Saturday observance that you choose to. And the Saturday trips were really the point of my discussion... you have displayed a regular tendency to whine about not being able to participate in events that occur on Friday night or Saturday. We all know that you're Orthodox and have accordingly made the choice, which we all respect, to not do certain things at that time; the whining only serves to provoke reactions such as mine.
I do agree that some sensitivity to the major holidays would be nice, but as American Pig said, it may well be that that weekend was the only opportunity they had to do it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Whoops, it was you (Brian) who said that... sorry.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As for whether it's a choice -- that depends no his beliefs. If he believes that the Sabbath is a nice cultural observance, or that it's a good excuse to get a nap, or that the people in his shul are friendly, then he can choose to let it go one week for a railfan trip. If he believes that he's commanded to observe the Sabbath by an omnipotent deity, then observing the Sabbath is less of a choice than is not jumping a turnstile in direct view of a cop.
Other days and dates do come with automatic exclusions, it's just that they are for a different set of people. I am aware of two posters on this board for whom events on Sunday are no more an option that events on Saturday are for you and Brian, because of the beliefs which those two posters choose to hold, but neither of them are publicly complaining about the choice of Sunday for two of the fan trips.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nobody's complaining that stuff goes on on Saturdays. The complaint (if it's a complaint at all) is that the same people who are automatically excluded from two of the four trips because they're on Saturday are also automatically excluded from a third because it's on Rosh Hashanah, and were also automatically excluded from the last trip that used the same equipment because it was on Succot.
But I don't think anyone's actually complaining. Promoting awareness is more like it. When Brian and I pointed out that the original schedule of the last set of MOD trips made it impossible for some people to ride the IRT cars (and probably made it impossible for some people to ride the IND cars), Bill Wall changed the schedule. Obviously, he was more than prepared to accomodate those who he could accomodate, and I think many of us are grateful for the change, but he didn't realize there was a scheduling snag until it was pointed out.
Between the two upcoming Steeplecab trips and the one last year, all three take place on dates that automatically exclude a few people who might have wanted to attend. Nobody's being blamed for anything. There's simply a request on the table that, next time, those same people not be automatically excluded for the same reason, if at all possible.
Some fundamentalist Christians follow essentially the same interpretation of their sabbath as do Orthodox Jews, prohibiting all activities on Sunday that are not specifically related to worship. I don't know whether this would prevent them from riding a train if the purpose was to get to church, but it would prevent them from doing so for a fan trip.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But Orthodox Jews don't follow that interpretation!
Orthodox Jews don't claim there's anything wrong with reading a book or playing a game of chess or taking a nap on the Sabbath. They do claim that there's something wrong with riding a train, whether or not it's specifically related to worship. If the nearest shul is ten miles away, no observant Orthodox Jew would ride the train there -- either he'd hoof it out or he'd stay home.
(Orthodox Jews don't even claim there's any particular obligation to go to shul on the Sabbath at all. There's an obligation to pray every day of the week, and shul is the preferred place to do it. That's it.)
Now you know why I could never be Orthodox... I couldn't possibly keep track of all the do's and don'ts :-)
But the effect, in this case, is the same... they can't do it, for reasons related to the choice of religious observance they have made.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That was a joke right ?
Excuse me if I think Brian is whining.
You live you life according to beliefs that you've been taught by your parents and other mentors thru your life.
The testament of a true believer is how they live there life not what day they observe it !
That's not quite like the holidays of most other religions, which may have scheduling problems because special prayer services are required, but make no impositions on the rest of the day. One poster said that he'd attend a Christmas railfan trip; he'd just have to go to midnight mass. An observant Jew doesn't have that option: the issue isn't a scheduling conflict of an hour or two; it's a blanket prohibition of riding trains from sunset Friday to sundown Saturday, period, no matter what, except to save a life. (Taking pictures and swiping MetroCards are also out.)
I was not aware of any other religions that similarly prohibit certain acts on their Sabbaths. Steve suggested one interesting possibility.
Judaism has many commandments that are in effect every day of the week -- eating kosher, for instance. The Sabbath is a special day with its own special rules on top of the everyday ones. (Traditional Judaism doesn't claim there's anything intrinsically wrong with riding a train, only that the Sabbath isn't the day to do it.)
Yes, it sounds crazy to most non-Jews. Don't worry, it sounds crazy to most Jews, too.
But we can ride trains.
But on the fast days themselves, no eating or drinking anything at all, except for the seriously ill (or those who would become seriously ill were they to fast). Additional restrictions apply on the two 25-hour fasts.
When David and I discuss the "Saturday" issue we are mainly talking about "Friday night/Saturday ONLY" events such as the ERA meetings and UTC meetings, and anything else that regularly happens on the same day and never changes to a different day.
But in any event, I don't see any of us changing our minds on this issue. I understand your view and hopefully from the above you will understand mine. So let's move on to some humor:
-----
From the movie The Big Lebowski...
Walter Sobchak: "I told that kraut a f_ckin' thousand times I don't roll on shabbos!" --Walter to Donny (Steve Buscemi), upon realizing he's scheduled to bowl on the Jewish Sabbath
--
Walter Sobchak: Saturday, Donny, is shabbas, the Jewish day of rest. That means I don't work, I don't drive a car, I don't f_cking ride in a car, I don't handle money, I don't turn on the oven, and I sure as sh_t don't f_cking roll!
--
Walter Sobchak: I'm saying, I see what you're getting at, Dude, he kept the money. My point is, here we are, it's shabbas, the sabbath, which I'm allowed to break only if it's a matter of life or death--
The Dude: Will you come off it, Walter? You're not even f_cking Jewish, man.
Walter Sobchak: What the f_ck are you talkin' about?
The Dude: Man, you're f_cking Polish Catholic--
Walter Sobchak: What the f_ck are you talking about? I converted when I married Cynthia! Come on, Dude!
The Dude: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah--
Walter Sobchak: And you know this!
The Dude: Yeah, and five f_cking years ago you were divorced.
Walter Sobchak: So what are you saying? When you get divorced you turn in your library card? You get a new license? You stop being Jewish?
The Dude: It's all a part of your sick Cynthia thing, man. Taking care of her f_cking dog. Going to her f_cking synagogue. You're living in the f_cking past.
Walter Sobchak: Three thousand years of beautiful tradition, from Moses to Sandy Koufax-- YOU'RE G_D_MN RIGHT I'M LIVING IN THE F_CKING PAST!
Thanks for the quotes from the movie... I'm not much of a moviegoer so I wasn't familiar with it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Who knows, I might meet some employee SubTalkers on the AMUE trip.
Koi
Chuck Greene
Koi
If those dates are inconvient, and you would like a little handle time too, Branford will feature R-17 #6688 both days of Rapid Transit Week-end (Aug 16th & 17th). Via the "Be a Motorman" program you can opertate her or one of our trolleys, under supervision. This event will be repaeted for the last time this season, Sept. 20th & 21st. That may be a Arenine week-end, i.e. using our R-9 #1689.
I'm tentatively planning on coming up Sept. 21st. The car I'd most like to operate is 6688. Do you think 6688 could be out and running too on that date? Thanks!
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
-Larry
Count on it. (I do)
:0)
The following year, unlimited cards were introduced, and I think that's when the 10% bulk bonus was first implemented. In 1995, the fare was $1.50 per ride for just about everyone, with no free intermodal transfers; three years later, the fare was $1.36 or less for most regular passengers, including free intermodal transfers.
That's as much a fare rollback as anything. It's certainly more of a fare rollback than I've seen many suggest: instead of a $2.00 fare with discounts of all sorts, they've proposed a $1.75 fare with no discounts. To most riders, that's a fare hike!
Specifically, the bulk bonus was implemented on January 1 and unlimited rides on July 4, 1998. The Fun Pass didn't come around until January 1, 1999.
Also, the express bus base fare was lowered from $4 to $3 on March 1, 1998.
Incidentally, what's wrong with this picture I took in June of this year?
I would have asked for one, but the computers were down. A lot of good the MetroCard Bus is when the computers are down!
The putrid color of the wrap on that bus :^)
That's one TA bus we DONT have to pay a fare to board.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
>>>The [proposed Yellow Line extension] would push the line north from Dempster to the Westfield Shoppingtown Old Orchard mall or to Old Orchard Road. Some who live north of the existing line worried about the noise, safety problems, traffic congestion and lowered property values an extension could bring to their neighborhoods. <<<
Under what circumstances do property values increase or decrease in the presence of new mass transit?
www.forgotten-ny.com
My guess would be that new mass transit increases property values in the service area, except possibly in the immediate vicinity of a station and directly along a surface or elevated line. I'd like to see some statisitical analyses of the issue, if any exist, to see if my assumption holds true.
Other thing that can make property values go up is close loaction to shopping centers and things like that. My house value will go up nicely when the new a Target, Stop $ Shop, Lowes home improment center and other that are being built right across the street from me open up later this years.
Robert
All studies done to date show a significant increase in property values within a station's service area and within a few blocks of it; little or no effect along the ROW itself. Since no one builds Els the way they were done in the late 1800s and early 1900s, there's not much to worry about in the way of noise.
However, transit lines do encourage greater density of development, and higher property values can bring higher property taxes.
The article being quoted in this thread was full of the usual NIMBY bullshit.
Property values would drop near the line (assuming it's not underground) if there are no nearby stations.
But documented evidence has clearly shown the opposite. In every case where a modern El structure has been built (Miami, Atlanta, Washington, San Francisco) property values have risen.
What you are referring to is political opposition. Different animal.
"Even with a modern el structure, the trains can still be pretty noisy,"
Uh, not really. Check out Miami Metrorail sometime, or Washington, and see for yourself. Your statement is false."
There's no simple answer, but I think you can pretty much go with:
New or "Improved" Mass Transit increases property values when it significantly improves service (reduces travel time or improves convenience in getting to a popular destination) for the residents of that area.
The most obvious recent example of this that I can think of is NJT's Midtown Direct, created a one-seat (well, one standing spot) ride into midtown that took about 15-20 minutes less than the prior PATH connection through Hoboken. Housing prices along the Maplewood - Chatham corridor skyrocketed at rates far beyond the huge increases seen elsewhere during the mid 90's.
New or "Improved" Mass Transit decreases property values when it does not provide a service improvement to the residents of the area and is aimed at bringing people into or through that area.
Given the relative lack of recent construction in metro NY and the success of the NIMBYs in blocking projects that might cause value decreases, I can't immediately think of any specific recent projects that have caused values to fall.
As Peter mentioned, for those houses which immediately face or abut the ROW a value decrease should be expected in most cases.
CG
But typically I think their neighborhood first has to have:
- Aging housing
- Be in the same direction from town as the "scary" populations
- Already be changing (people moving out)
Otherwise, transit should be helpful (but try to tell the NIMBY's that). And, of course, in New York, people should long ago have gotten over trying to keep "them" out of their neighborhoods.
Even if these conditions apply, the area probably won't turn into some sort of slum unless it also has a stock of multifamily housing, or at least large older single-family houses that can be cut up into rentals. New transit lines aren't going to ruin any neighborhood.
In LA, BTW, there are single family slums, but in NYC, you're right --if the housing is single-family AND bad enough to really wreck, it'll get torn down before it'll get run down.
In New York City, the subways are used by the working poor of various races and national origins, and by college-educated workers who moved here from all over the country and are linked to Manhattan.
The areas without subways are often occupied the remnants of New York's white ethnics, many of whom are not college educated. Often, these groups hold unionized positions in construction, government, construction or utilities that pay better than the alternatives available. They look down on mass transit, and almost never use it.
An improvement in mass transit creates dual fears for such groups. If the believe that subway service will encourage racial and ethnic minorities move it, they will be worried about falling property values and crime. If, on the other hand, the believe that subway service would attract college-educated Manhattan workers, they'll be worried about gentrification and being priced out.
Either way, don't look for too much interest in subway service in places like Maspeth, Glendale, Middle Village, Laurenton, Bayside, etc.
BTW, Bayside does not belong with the rest. It has become quite diverse, with a higher percentage of college educated professionals.
CG
I know who lives in Southeast Queens. I used to work with a lot of censu data, and surveyed most of the city, remember?
Irony. The Black city councilwoman representing Southeast Queens, one of them most affluent Afro-American communities in the country, responded to yet another study of the E extension with an objection. Subway service would bring crime, she said.
And in a city which has gone from mostly White to mostly not, there are people organized and objecting to White people moving to their neighborhoods where they don't below! Yes it's true, it's a political issue.
So resentment, hostility, and insularity is not just among white faces either. But it is certain groups of people, though perhaps it is difficult to describe their common characteristics accurately. In any event, the number of New Yorkers of Puerto Rican descent, non-college educated Whites, and Blacks who don't have West Indian heritage (including those from the south) is fast shrinking to zero. These are the people who segregated themselves from each other.
Aside from such people, and in some cases including those who have chosen to stay rather than leave, the city is, in my opinion, vastly more integrated that 20 years ago when I arrived, both in terms of education and skin color. You see it, among other places, on the subway.
"one of them most affluent Afro-American communities in the country,"
well, not really, and still afflicted by individuals a ghetto mentality.
That's what you get when only 5% of your community bothers to vote in an election. You get an idiot representing you in city council.
NIMBY would not kill an E extension, though. While it would be nice if that councilwoman would take better care of her constituents (not just the NIMBY loudmouths and the bigots), her opposition would not block the project.
But there is only so much room in the Capital Plan, and this isn't a priority right now.
I don't think that's the case here Ron. While I can't comment either way on the quality of the councilwoman, I will point out that these neighborhoods have turned over nearly 90% in the last 25-30 years. During that time, the people moving to these neighborhoods did so fully knowing that there was no subway access to the rest of the city and -- given the high crime rates in other parts of the city where many of these folks moved from -- many likely moved there specifically because there was no subway link.
I suspect this councilwoman is doing a very good job of representing the opinion of her constituency on this issue -- regardless of how many of them actually voted.
CG
If citywide crime rates continue to drop, some of this anti-transit prejudice may diminish. Not that it would make any difference in practical terms; an E extension is a lower priority than the SAS and the 7 extension.
It is exatly this point that most concil idiots are agains everything. People angry are more likly to vote. If the concilman leads the charge it is an easiy reelection. Marty golden got a rude awaking with his anti0token booth closing legistation. Golden represents many middle class residents that know that tooken booths provide no crime deterent. He recieved hundreds of letters against his legislation. We told him due to his ignorance on the tooken booth issues will be watching his work more closly in deciding wheter to re-elect him
Term limits swept out a lot of the anti-everything councilpeople. I hope they stay out. They represented people who had been moving away. The rest of use are better represented now than then.
No way. In fact, southeastern Queens has a very poor election turnout record, among the worst in NYC. You're reporting fiction there.
"During that time, the people moving to these neighborhoods did so fully knowing that there was no subway access to the rest of the city and -- given the high crime rates in other parts of the city where many of these folks moved from -- many likely moved there specifically because there was no subway link. "
False statement. Nonsense, in fact. People in Ozone Park have complained about the poor quality of subway service. But if you don't go to vote, you deserve whatever you get.
RIB -- "No way. In fact, southeastern Queens has a very poor election turnout record, among the worst in NYC. You're reporting fiction there."
I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say they had turned out (as in voter turnout) -- I said turned over, meaning that 90% of the population has moved out and been replaced by people who were formerly outsiders.
Your reference to Ozone Park is misplaced. Ozone Park is a community in southwest Queens with subway service. We've been talking about communities in southeast Queens without subway service. (But you knew that...)
I'm not saying this councilwoman (or assemblywoman or whoever she is) is right or wrong -- just that like any politician she likely reflects the opinions of her constituency.
CG
She was Councilwoman Juanita Watkins. She also opposed the construction of a new supermarket in her community, saying area residents could always drive to plenty of supermarkets just over the border in Nassau. But she's gone now.
In any event, I don't see the E extension as needed because East Side Access is being built. Densities are too low in eastern Queens for subway service to cover very much of its costs at $2.00 (acutally an average of $1.30) per ride. The densities in Queens make commuter rail service more appropriate, and (not that I want to give her any credit) is what Watkins wanted. Once LIRR capacity increases, more stations could be added in SE Queens, and more trains run to them.
The existing bus service is more costly for the TA to operate than train service. It's not a question of recovering total operating costs but rather one of reducing present costs. Bus service represented additional revenue prior to the Metrocard's introduction. That's no longer the case. It's about time that the TA's planners realized this.
BTW, have you applied your same total cost recovery criterion to the SAS?
In Southeast Queens, no matter which LIRR branch was used for the extended E, almost everyone would still have to take a bus to the train, though for a shorter distance.
(BTW, have you applied your same total cost recovery criterion to the SAS?)
On Second Avenue, those switching from the bus or taxi will be able to walk to the train. As far as having a higher cost for better service, yes I did consider -- and propose while at NYC Planning -- a higher price for the SAS for a period of years as a way of getting the line built, similar to the higher priced charged on the Rockaway Branch. As part of that plan, the SAS could be made FRA compatible and connected to the commuter rail network.
In any event, by your standards the entire subway system should not have been built, and perhaps that nothing should ever be done in the present to benefit the future, so why argue with you about what is more cost effective than what? My discount rate is zero (or perhaps lower, given the way I feel about my children and our future). Yours appears to be very, very high.
(Bus service represented additional revenue prior to the Metrocard's introduction. That's no longer the case. It's about time that the TA's planners realized this.)
I think they reailize this, although they still think of higher ridership as a good thing, as in their view it builds political support for tax-based subsidies.
There are 18 bus lines that extend east from the Jamaica terminals. Let's try to guesstimate the operating cost savings for truncating these routes by extending train service. Assume the average headway is 15 minutes and that an average of 3 miles could be saved. Then the amount of miles to be saved in one year would be:
18 x lines/direction x 2 directions x 4 bus/hr x 24 hr/day x 365 day/yr x 3 mile/line = 3.78 million vehicle miles/yr. NYCT's cost for operating a bus is $13.97 / vehicle-mile. So the reduction in the cost for trucating the bus lines would be $53 million annually.
Suppose there were a 4 mile extension of the subway. Assuming the same 20 minuted average headway for a 10 car train. The vehicle miles would be:
10 cars/train-direction x 2 directions x 4 trains/hr x 24 hr/day x 365 day/year x 4 miles = 2.8 million vehicle-miles/yr. NYCT's cost for operating a trains is $6.79/vehicle-mile. So the cost of providing extended train service would be $19 milion annually.
The net operations savings for extending a line east from Jamaica would be around $34 million.
I realize the concept of simultaneously increasing service and reducing cost is alien to the TA's mindset. However, that is the cost justification for extending rail transit to replace bus transit. Where's a similar thought process for the SAS?
(Bus service represented additional revenue prior to the Metrocard's introduction. That's no longer the case. It's about time that the TA's planners realized this.)
I think they reailize this, although they still think of higher ridership as a good thing, as in their view it builds political support for tax-based subsidies.
If that is the TA's only realization that feeder buses no longer provide their own revenue stream, then they are every bit as shortsighted as I give them credit for being. :-)
Assumption that all bus routes could be shortened because of the extended subway. There would still be a need for local bus service along Hillside Ave and Merrick Blvd.
4 miles east of Hillside/179 is the Nassau County line -- well beyond the point just about anyone argues that subway service is needed. Regardless, even if built that far, you wouldn't reduce mileage by anywhere near an average 3 miles per route.
Your estimate of average 15 minute headways 24 hours 7 days holds only for the busiest routes. Many of the 18 do not even have 7-day service or anything approaching the level of service you factor into your analysis.
Adjust for these and your estimated bus savings falls off a cliff.
CG
But extending the F and the J trains to some hypothetical point, say near the 200 block (I'm not picking a particular end-point, just saying we'll end the subway 2 miles from Nassau instead of four, OK?) gets you the prospect of shorter LI Bus runs (meaning the same number of buses can provide faster, more convenient and more frequent service) and can allow you to improve the alignment of city buses as well.
So the savings Stephen proposes are absolutely true for LI Bus routes; are largely true for the most directly affected city buses, and would allow modest improvements in other lines.
And it would give more people access to the subway who need it and want it.
You could argue that the F gets crowded enough as it is. I'd extend the J first, as it can do the most good.
Of course, neither is on the drawing boards...
Also, I think Stephen underestimates the impact of creating major bus terminals will have on the new subway endpoints. Take a look at Archer Avenue during the AM or PM rush. It took them years to finally clear out the traffic jams that result from all those busses trying to discharge and turn around. They finally pulled it off with a big road widening and creation of a bus lane. Where are you going to do that on Merrick Blvd?
Same goes for Hillside. Look at the bus terminal on 165th(?). You'll need a facility (perhaps a bit smaller, perhaps not) like that wherever you put the subway terminal. Go 20 or 40 blocks east on Hillside and tell me how many houses you'll have to knock down to build that.
You have a point. However, restoring subway service to where it used to run as well as extending it a reasonable distance will more than make up for the inconvenience. And it is subway service, not an El.
"Also, I think Stephen underestimates the impact of creating major bus terminals will have on the new subway endpoints. Take a look at Archer Avenue during the AM or PM rush. It took them years to finally clear out the traffic jams that result from all those busses trying to discharge and turn around. They finally pulled it off with a big road widening and creation of a bus lane. Where are you going to do that on Merrick Blvd? "
You popped a light bulb in my head:
Option: What if you made a stop on the subway the bus terminal itself, by routing the subway tunnel to it? Then you wouldn't have to move the terminal. You'd make it fancier, with a subway headhouse or an integrated structure with elevators and escalators etc. etc. and maybe some concession stands for food, snacks, sodas.
Just a thought.
Otherwise, as you get further from Jamaica Center you do get some blight, and at some point you could find a property where demolition and replacement with a new bus terminal would be an improvement.
"Same goes for Hillside. Look at the bus terminal on 165th(?). You'll need a facility (perhaps a bit smaller, perhaps not) like that wherever you put the subway terminal. Go 20 or 40 blocks east on Hillside and tell me how many houses you'll have to knock down to build that."
There is no terminal now at 179 Street. If you extended the F, then what I would propose is to truncate the LI Bus runs by simply routing the bus "around the block" and back toward Nassau. The F extension would not involve a new bus terminal.
Practically all the commuters go from subway station to bus without any deviation. The few blocks along Hillside and 179th never developed into any viable commercial area, despite its having a monopoly on such would be shoppers from 1950 until the opening of Archer Ave. The Jamaica Ave merchants, like most merchants, will have to attract customers by giving fair value for their wares.
Also, I think Stephen underestimates the impact of creating major bus terminals will have on the new subway endpoints.
One benefit of extending the lines would be to eliminate the need for bus terminals by eliminating the concentration of passengers. There would be 4 stops between 179th and Little Neck Pkwy. So, instead of having 18 bus lines terminate at one stop, there would be 4 lines terminating at each of 4 stops. That's a big difference.
the traffic jams that result from all those busses trying to discharge and turn around
The strategy would be to match a route going north of the new extension to one going south. This would eliminate the need to turn a bus around.
Look at the bus terminal on 165th(?).
The location of the 165th St bus terminal might have made sense when the Jamaica Ave El was the only subway link into the city. It hasn't been since 1936. I'm not familiar with the bus terminal's history but it looks of more recent origin. Not many people use it. They crowd up on Hillside or on Archer. It's not necessary. There's no reason to replicate a new one, if the existing subway line is extended to Little Neck Pkwy.
If there is a case for extending the E/J then there is at least as strong or stronger a case for extending the 7 line.
The escalators and elevator rarely work. Their absence wouldn't be noticed. :-)
I always then imagine a meeting where the MTA chairman in going around the table:
"Got the EIS?"
"Check."
"Secured $1 Billion in funding?"
"Check."
"Placated the NIMBY's?"
"Check."
"Hired 100's of construction workers?"
"Check."
"So it's a go."
"But what about the escalators"
"Oh. You're right. Forget it then"
CG
There is also the difficulty in admitting mistakes. This renovation was just a few years ago and for alot of money. If the MTA tore it up to extend the line, that would be admitting error. Its brave and its the right thing to do but will they?
Non-functioning escalators are a TA specialty. They are equally adept at providing non-functioning escalators entirely underground.
Any other stations in the MTA system or elsewhere that have escalators rising to street level like that have similar track records?
Not at all. The original escalator at Woodside operated for over 70 years without such problems.
I would like very much to know why there is such bumbling incompetence when it comes to escalators. They break constantly and take a geological era or two to replace.
I just walked past the Main St escalators. There are some "features" in the design that would make their operation more susceptible to bad weather.
The escalators and elevator entrance face east. There is an uphill going from west to east. This means that any water that might be present on the sidewalk would flow unhindered onto the escalator stairs.
There's a gutter on the roof of the escalator structure. There's a pipe leading from the east side of the gutter down under the sidewalk. The pipe then leads eastward and empties onto the street. The designers expect any residual water in the pipe to flow uphill to the street to drain. The pipe will rot out because of the residual water. The low point for this pipe is beside the top of the escalator mechanism.
Somebody else want to comment on the "brilliant" engineer in charge of construction?
But has the tie up at Penn Station always been so bad that people actually go to Hunters Point instead, wait for the free shuttle bus, and then cross by ferry and wait for the number 34 bus in Manhattan???? What an operation!!! What is the purpose of that Hunters Point terminal? It can't be to switch to the Flushing subway -- I don't see that many people boarding there.
I'll go to Hunters Point in the morning maybe once a month when I take the train from Stony Brook for variety's sake. Each time, I've noticed a lot of people, probably in the hundreds, transferring to the 7.
I'd better brace myself. I'd been told I could find a seat in the morning.
You're not very observant. The Hunters Point transfer permits people who work in the Grand Central area to get to work quicker than by going into Penn Sta. This is especially true for those who live beyond the electric zone and can take a direct train to Hunters Point.
There are only 11 trains which arrive at Hunters Point each morning between 6:30 and 10:00 AM. This includes large gaps from 6:34 to 7:26 and 8:00 to 8:36 where there are no trains. If you figure that the crowd getting off the LIRR is absorbed by the 7 within 10 minutes of arriving that leaves a gap of 42 minutes early in the rush and 26 minutes later on during which 7 trains would pick up no LIRR riders.
CG
Stephen correctly explained the station's primary purpose. A follow-on question might be: What purpose can this station serve after East Side Access is completed? Is the station close enough to LIC's waterfront developments to prompt its renovation? Would the LIC line be at risk for total abandonment when electric trains begin operating through LIRR's 63rd Street tunnel into Grand Central?
My guess is service to Hunters Point will be terminated.
A big reason for service to Hunters Point is inertia. Remember, that was the former LIRR terminal, after the Atlantic Avenue Tunnel was closed and before Penn Station. LIRR riders would catch a ferry to the foot of 34th Street, where an El spur would bring them in. You can still see the remnants of the former terminal from Manhattan.
When the ferries died, the terminal was moved back from the waterfront to the connection with the Flushing Line. The line continued, even though most people went to Penn Station, because stations such as Glendale could only be served by Hunters Point trains, and the diesels had to go somewhere.
After the Southwest Queens stations were closed, Hunters Point remained because of capacity issues at Penn, and the need to send the diesels somewhere. Among its regular users are the Montauk Cannonball, the super-express to the Hamptons during the summer. But do most Cannonball riders board at Hunters Point, or do they transfer at Jamaica?
My guess is that when ESA opens the diesels will relay west of Jamaica, and everyone will transfer to the increased number of electric trains going to the three destinations.
It HAS its purposes, and has been QUITE handy to have maintained historically. Anyone here remember any LIRR shutdowns EVER owing to "Penn Station is closed due to ... [insert Bin Laden comment here or an actual event such as a tunnel fire]) ...?" :(
Bottom line, Long Island NEEDS a destination. Even if the GCT connector is done, HP *remains* as a hip-pocket way to win for those who use the LIRR ... even if it involves a hike.
It could certainly be maintained as an emergency back up, and will certainly be used for freight.
The ferry interests want the public to pay rebuilding the original terminal at the waterfront. They believe many people would take a ferry to the foot of Wall Street -- it's only ten minutes or so -- from there, if it were not for the long walk and bus.
In a less bureaucratic age, such an extension would probably be built in a few months for a few tens of millions. As it is, if it does occur it will be hundreds of millions and years.
Glad I could be of service.
Now, as for Hunters Point ... It's a beautiful station, and I love those tunnel-entry platforms (there I go again), but then, so is the City Hall IRT station beautiful. And the fact is, HP is just too close to the adjacent two stations. Some of Elias's proposals to straighten up the L.I.C. 7-el may be more to the point.
No trains from Glendale ever stopped at Hunters Point.
Once ESA opens, the LIRR will still have the same problem with needing a place for the diesels.
Riders from the electric lines rarely transfer to the diesels at Jamaica to go to HPA. This is probably due more to ignorance of where HPA is and what you can connect to when you get there than it being a conscious decision about the best route to East Midtown. LIRR hasn't really ever publicized the option
But your point about the line's continuing utility as a revenue or non-revenue service track is well-taken
You're right. I'm thinking of the Long Island City station.
The need for east-west bus service would be greatly reduced, if the subway were extended eastward. There would be need for some residual east-west bus service only a small fraction of what currently exists. Possibly like the service on Queens Blvd that is supplied by the Q60.
4 miles east of Hillside/179 is the Nassau County line -- well beyond the point just about anyone argues that subway service is needed. Regardless, even if built that far, you wouldn't reduce mileage by anywhere near an average 3 miles per route.
Your estimate of average 15 minute headways 24 hours 7 days holds only for the busiest routes. Many of the 18 do not even have 7-day service or anything approaching the level of service you factor into your analysis.
4 miles from Midland Pkwy along Hillside reaches to Little Neck Pkwy, Still 0.75 miles from the city line. The extension of the subway line should result in a complete realingment of the Queens feeder bus system. My 3 mile figure is only a guesstimate, as I stated.
However, there would be very little need for east-west service south of the LIE. Thus, the Q46 one of the busiest routes in Queens and not included in the 18 line count out of Jamaica, would loose its primary feeder function. Most of the people along its corridor would opt for quicker north-south routes at Little Neck Pkwy, Springfield Blvd, Bell Blvd, Frances Lewis Blvd and 188th St. These north-south routes would no longer have to make a long trip along Hillside, Jamaica Ave or Merrick Blvd to get to the end of the subway line.
One legacy of eliminating split shifts has been a dramatic increase in midday and evening bus service. I have not counted the number of runs nor come up with a new routing plan. However, I feel that my guesstimate for the number of bus vehicle-miles is not grossly overestimated, especially when one examines the secondary savings due to route changes in routes like the Q46. OTOH, if you are inclined to do track down how many vehicle miles each route operates, I'd certainly entertain such objections.
But it's an important one. If it's 2 miles, your savings are reduced by 33%. If it's 1.5 miles your savings are cut in half. Please don't interpret my input as being critical of your calculations -- it's an excellent framework for preliminary analysis. But after nailing down the assumptions through that framework you'd have to run through many of the residual effects that you pointed out (decreased east/west service in some areas, but increased north/south).
"OTOH, if you are inclined to do track down how many vehicle miles each route operates, I'd certainly entertain such objections"
And therein lies the rub. On a quiet Sunday afternoon I'll browse some maps and make some estimates -- but unless the MTA (or you) are planning on paying me, I'm not going to put in the time it would take to tighten up the assumptions!
CG
I agree that the estimated average savings in vehicle-miles travelled is important. However, the relation between savings and passenger vehicle-miles saved is not linear. (It's the relation between operating expenses and passenger vehicle-miles travelled that is linear.)
On a quiet Sunday afternoon I'll browse some maps and make some estimates -- but unless the MTA (or you) are planning on paying me, I'm not going to put in the time it would take to tighten up the assumptions!
What makes you think that the TA's planning assumptions are any more rigorous?
That's why I figured that a big fat check wouldn't be headed my way anytime soon...
Not the best analogy to use when talking about buses.
If the Feds don't fund local projects, then these economists who work for the federal government would be out of a job. The watchdogs are usually any project's most fervent supporters. I've had some fun fighting FHA examiners on a road project that violated federal design guidelines. Those FHA examiners could have passed for Enron auditors.
Consider the Grand Central - Penn Sta shell game. They are building the ESA to reroute some LIRR trains from Penn Sta to Grand Central. Then they are proposing the Penn Sta access to reroute some MN trains from Grand Central to Penn Sta.
The examiners have already signed off on the ESA and will probably approve the Penn Sta access. :-)
Just like the WPA, everybody has a job.
I know that in the USA transit capital costs come from federal funds these days, so the MTA doesn't necessarily have to *pay* these interest charges;
It certainly skews how one evaluates capital projects. There is a strategy given these rules. One should opt for projects that increase profitability - namely those that increase operating revenue faster than operating expenses or those that reduce operating expenses. A Jamaica extension would reduce operating expenses.
She was a puppet of bodega owners. She supported ghetto values because playing the victim got her attention. I know of few elected officials who supported poverty more than she did. Good riddance.
Relatively sparse service, and could use more. But not El service, real subway service. Sink the Lefferts A branch into a subway and extend it further, and it will have customers.
"We've been talking about communities in southeast Queens without subway service. (But you knew that...)"
No, I didn't. Your definition of SE Queens is narrower than the generally accepted definition - but that is OK, because it is relevant to my comments and therefore you bring up a good point.
"I'm not saying this councilwoman (or assemblywoman or whoever she is) is right or wrong -- just that like any politician she likely reflects the opinions of her constituency. "
Wrong in places with poor voter turnout. By definition, a politician there will reflect the few politicaly active people who are seen as "opinion makers." Until more people get involved, that means the councilman or woman could be voting AGAINST the interests of constituents, but in relative safety, because he/she knows nobody will bother voting against him/her in the next election.
I don't follow this at all. People who live near the Lefferts line aren't going to decide whether or not to ride it based on whether it's an el or underground. That's pretty much irrelevant except to railfans. Okay, an underground station might be somewhat more attractive to due better protection from the weather, but on the other hand elevated stations might be percevied as a bit safer at night.
People will object to an extension of the line if it is planned to be an El.
Put the existing El underground, then extend it, and you deal with that objection.
Do people who ride the trains - not the people who live close to the line, but the riders in general - actually care whether it is underground or elevated, to the point of being more willing to ride it if its underground? I find that hard to believe. And on earlier threads (discussing JFK, the AirTrain, need for better service at Howard Beach, etc.) people have said that the Lefferts branch is pretty well used.
You and others seem to be missing my point here. My fault; I didn't express it well. Residents of that area would not be very happy with new El construction. AirTrain worked out well because it is over an expressway median. Extending the A train further than Lefferts should be done as a subway, not an El, and an important anti-NIMBY concession would be to retrofit the Lefferts branch as subway. The removal of the El from over Liberty Av and its replacement by subway (and new stations) would find favor with local residents.
I live in Cambria Heights, one of the better neighbourhoods of Southeast Queens. Nobody moved here upon the completion of any subway service. Most people moved to fleeing bad neighbourhoods that had transit access. Public schools are decent out here, but Catholic schools are very popular, especially among West Indians.
Many people in the area own cars, or know somebody who owns a car and will drive them around. A lot of the older residents wouldn't support any subway extension into the area on the fear that it would bring "those people we left behind". The image that a subway station evokes is a dirty, smelly station in their neighbourhood that can double as a homeless shelter. Sutphin Blvd, Jamaica Center, and 179th Street aren't exactly the best looking stations. Most people are content with the current bus/train transfers with MetroCard. The cheapest transit solution would be to offer more LIRR service and add small parking lots at the stations, along with fare restructuring that would encourage usage during peak and off-peak hours. A fare of $2.50 off peak and $4.00-4.50 peak with 15-20 minute service would attract many riders, especially when ESA is completed (would the LIRR’s signaling practices and car fleet allow for this?). Express buses cost too much to operate and suffer from traffic on roads and expressways. An extension of E or J/Z service is questionable because of the location of any possible stop. Would you end a subway line in a residential neighbourhood of single and two family houses?
I agree.
(Would you end a subway line in a residential neighbourhood of single and two family houses? )
Also correct. There is not enough people to support subway service in neighborhoods of detached houses, so people there need to expect to pay the higher cost of commuter rail. And since they are located farther from the center, they will usually be willing to pay it to get the faster ride.
"A lot of the older residents wouldn't support any subway extension into the area on the fear that it would bring "those people we left behind"."
That's ignorance which is oft-repeated by loudmouths. There is a reservoir of that in your neighborhood to be sure, and its shameful. But you make a good point about density and support of transit.
"The image that a subway station evokes is a dirty, smelly station in their neighbourhood that can double as a homeless shelter."
Which is an incredible exaggeration. I'm constantly amazed at the intolerance and stupidity people have for each other.
"An extension of E or J/Z service is questionable because of the location of any possible stop. Would you end a subway line in a residential neighbourhood of single and two family houses?"
Have you forgotten your geography? The J serves a business district, and if you extended it by a mile it would still offer service to an area with the density to support it. I'm not suggesting that it be extended all the way to the Nassau border. That's iunappropriate. But there's room for a couple of more stations (or even three) where there's more than enough density to support service. Recall that the old El went as far as 168th Street. It now ends at the equivalent of 153rd St.
Go back and refamiliarize yourself with Jamaica and Archer Avs.
Good. I like agreeing with you at least once in a while Ron. I actually think ESA will add many riders from Eastern Queens onto the LIRR. As it stands now, those going to the Grand Central area from Rosedale or Queens Village have 3 choices (LIRR/Express Bus/Local Bus to Subway) and the LIRR is both the most expensive and the slowest option.
CG
Ironic, isn't it?
I used to ride the Port Washington's Great Neck Express. We'd go maximum speed, racing past Woodside, and then screeching to a halt in front of the Penn tubes. Stop signal. Snore, look out the window, watch my chance to get into Penn 15 minutes early slip away (Jersey Mike wouldn't care in this situation; he'd be too mesmerized by those gorgeous position signals - they're better than women! :0) )...
ESA will help that a lot.
I remember -- that's why I was surprised your comment seemed to overlook this huge section of Queens.
As an off-topic aside, I happen to think SE Queens is one of the most interesting communities in the country. In a way it's very much like the lower east side of the 1850-1950 era in the way it's ethnic composition has turned over and will probably turn over again -- except that rather than being an area populated by recent immigrants with relatively little, it is full of people firmly on their way up the ladder.
CG
My understanding is that this is the area the Black middle class moved to in the 1960s and 1970s, when Harlem and most of Bedford-Stuyvasant went from being ethnic ghettos with a variety of incomes and family types to low income, single-parent slums. Subesequently, it appears that advancing Black families are following the former wave of Whites to the suburbs.
I recenly did a quick tabulation of Summary File 4 data from the 2000 census. It seems that for Whites, New York City is now a desirable place to live. Not only were New York City's Whites better off than those Upstate, where most of the state's poor White people live (no wonder Upstate's economy is always an issue), but they are in many ways better off than Whites in the suburbs. For example, 42 percent of New York City's Whites had college diplomas, vs. just 35 percent in the suburbs.
Not so for Blacks and Latinos. In New York City, they were characterized by low income, low education levels, low employment levels, etc. even at the peak of the 2000 boom. The growing number of Blacks and Latinos in the suburbs, on the other hand, were not only far better off than Blacks and Latinos in the suburbs, they were better off, on average, than Whites Upstate.
So, looks like we've got Black Flight going on. Maybe better schools would reverse it. In any event, perhaps it's not surprising that a councilwoman from SE Queens had a more negative attitude toward the subway than many of the college-educated Whites on this board.
CG
That's because SE Queens caught the inital wave of middle class flight from older Black neighborhoods. Then the lid came off in the suburbs, and out they went. For example, virtually all the really sharp Black and Latino engineers I deal with live at NYCT live in the burbs. It still seems to be the case, broad brush, that advancing Blacks and Latinos outmigrate. Same with all the Indians, Pakistanis, Egyptians, etc.
A couple have stayed in town, however. Schools are a lot of it. Crime was a lot of it. Image is a lot of it. It would be great if some part of the Bronx or Brooklyn was the place to live if you were Black or Latino and had suceeded in some way. Not the case now. Does Spike Lee still live in Fort Greene?
A couple have stayed in town, however. Schools are a lot of it. Crime was a lot of it. Image is a lot of it. It would be great if some part of the Bronx or Brooklyn was the place to live if you were Black or Latino and had suceeded in some way. Not the case now. Does Spike Lee still live in Fort Greene?
The residency regulations that prevent city employees from living outside of the city slows this movement, and there are a lot of city employees in these neighbourhoods. Since many of them cannot or choose not to move to better neighbourhoods in Staten Island or Northeast Queens, many choose to stay and try to keep the neighbourhood as nice as possible. They’ve used the savings from refinancing mortgages to renovate their homes with extensions and finished basements for use as illegal rental units. Of course if somebody can fake residency in another jurisdiction to obtain cheaper insurance or pay lower taxes, city employees can and will do the same.
Cambria Heights is stable since most people aren’t willing to sell. Cambria Heights is already a suburban neighbourhood with cape cod and a few ranches, and nobody is willing to sell their houses for similar style homes with high property taxes. The neighbourhoods that have older homes built before WWII will suffer because nobody is really interested in maintaining those houses. People who are selling are leaving for suburbs, the Sunbelt, or retiring.
Nassau suburbs in Elmont and Valley Stream are popular because they’re near Queens County and cause minimal problems in terms of changing various habits such as doctors, supermarkets, churches, and in some cases private schools. Suburbs in Suffolk County are popular because the houses are cheaper, larger and newer than housing stock in Queens.
People see the suburbs as the solution to their problems. Poor schools, high crime, gang activity, lack of parking space, small houses, and long commutes are why many are leaving. Many leave because they see their children surrounded by “bad influences” which are just as easily found in the suburbs.
Cape Cod? Is that a kind of house?
"People see the suburbs as the solution to their problems. Poor schools, high crime, gang activity, lack of parking space, small houses, and long commutes are why many are leaving."
Unfortunately, those problems are worse in some suburbs than in the city. Organized gangs often have more freedom to terrorize people in the suburbs than in NYC because Nassau and Suffolk police don't have the same resources that NYPD has to keep a lid on things. The same gang-banger who follows a Nassau officer home and makes threatening phone calls to his family knows NYPD would deal with him much differently.
I never cease to be amazed by people's naivete and stupidity.
A one story detached house with an attic that can be converted into additional living space.
Not quite. A cape's second story is living space right from the beginning. In most cases the bedrooms are located there. The second story has the same floor space as the first floor but less usable room because the roof slants back from front and rear to a peak running parallel to the front of the house - looked at from the side, the second story has an upside-down "V" shape. As a result, the bedrooms on the second story have reduced overhead clearance toward the outside. In many cases, dormers are built into the roof to increase useful space in the bedrooms.
There usually is a small attic below the roof peak.
(Not quite. A cape's second story is living space right from the beginning. In most cases the bedrooms are located there.)
Could go either way. Generally, you can get partial living space by having window alcoves sticking through the roof, generally in front. Some are built that way, some with just attics.
The famous Levittown house was built with just one story of usable space, but expansion programmed in via dormers. My in-laws homestead in North Wantagh, also a Levitt house in the Levittown school district, was built later and was larger. It had the window alcoves in the front, and two bedrooms from the start. Later, they raised the rear roof to a dormer to add a third bedroom and expand the master bedroom.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Only slightly. All the higher paying city union jobs have exemptions adopted by the state legislature in the early 1960s to allow people to live outside the city. That's why many of those unions have stayed primarily White. Meanwhile, almost any job that requires a college education can get an exception as a "hard to recruit" title.
It is only the low paid, primarily minority titles that are still required to live in the city (ie. cafeteria aid). The suburbs have no desire to have such people move out there.
Which bears out the point I've made before - homeownership in NYC can be a terrific deal because property taxes are far below those in the suburbs. Even if you factor in the city income tax and higher insurance rates, the city still comes out ahead
It's sort of an irony - in a city where homeownership is such an excellent deal, homeownership rates are very low.
You're leaving out one component that many people consider the biggest factor in the equation -- cost of private school tuition.
Not all city schools are horror pits. In addition, not all suburban schools are paragons of enlightened learning. And finally, not all home buyers have school-age children.
Good points. The Roosevelt school system comes to mind...
It depends on how much you earn. Those who earn big bucks come out way ahead in the suburbs, while the elderly and those who earn less come out ahead in the city. But remember, 1-4 family housing is subsidized by an unjustifiable special deal. Those who live in apartments, either owners or renters (property taxes are passed on in rent) always come out behind in the city.
The city income tax hits us hard, and we almost certainly pay less in the suburbs on a similar home, but I prefer it nonetheless. If one of us were to become unemployed, our tax liability would fall. Not so in the suburbs.
(Not all city schools are horror pits.)
There are a number of special deal schools for those who can get into them, but the demand exceeds the supply. In addition, during the teacher shortage of the 1990s the suburbs stripped these schools of decent teachers. Today in New York you can have an honors chemistry course taught by four teachers in a year none of whom know chemistry.
(In addition, not all suburban schools are paragons of enlightened learning.)
Perhaps, but that's not what people think, and not what the test scores say.
(And finally, not all home buyers have school-age children.)
There you have it.
Students performance is often proportional to the income of the students' families. If suburbs are generally more well-to-do than the city, then there's your answer.
Since elementary and junior high school districts are usually locked into attending schools in their local districts, student performance is likely to better in higher income neighborhoods.
So no matter how much money one spends on inner city schools, it won't make a difference. It's all about what goes on at home for the first few years of a child's life.
Since elementary and junior high school districts are usually locked into attending schools in their local districts, student performance is likely to better in higher income neighborhoods. "
Yes, and part of that equation is resources made available at schools (but only part).
"So no matter how much money one spends on inner city schools, it won't make a difference. It's all about what goes on at home for the first few years of a child's life."
False statement, and non-sequiter from your first two. Spending per pupil can (but does not always) make a very significant difference.
I attended a lecture given by Daniel Patrick Moynihan some time around 1967. At that time, I knew of Monyihan from "Beyond the Melting Pot". The crux of the lecture was that they really were not able to show any correlation between any alterable parameter and pupil performance. Spending per pupil was specifically mentioned. Moynihan stated that except for astronomical expenditures that there was very little correlation.
That lecture was given at the Harvard Club in New York City around the time of Miss Nesbett's death. Moynihan made mention of her recent death in his opening remarks in a building designed by Stanford White. Somebody could look up the exact date (within a week) from the obit listings.
I have not seen any more recent data or studies that refute Moynihan's assertion.
The same argument was made about crime -- you have poor people, you have minorities, you have crime. It turns out that the resources were not sufficient, and the police weren't bothering to do their jobs.
So which do you do first in this situation? Clean up the system or throw more money at educator who aren't doing their job?
An interesting comment was once made on this board (perhaps by Selkirk -- which would mark the only occasion I think that I've actually agreed with him! Should have noted the date and circled it in red on my calendar), that NYC has given up its voice in state and national politics by consistently voting overwhelmingly for Democrats. As a result, Democrats take them for granted when in office and Republicans don't bother to reach out.
Your analysis of the school funding situation sounds like one of these situations.
CG
We've had three terms of Republican Mayors and Republican Governors, and we're still getting hosed. We'll see about the SAS.
At the national level, New York was hosed through 12 years of Republican Presidents and Democratic Congresses (1981-92), six years of Democratic Presidents and Democratic Congresses (1977-80 and 1993 to 94) six years of a Democratic President and Republican Congress (1995 to 2000) and four years of a Republican President and a Republican Congress.
Any advice on which party to vote for to stope getting hosed would be appreciated.
See my response to Charles G.. Congress may be reluctant to provide NYC with federal funding because it anticipates - quite reasonably - that the city will end up piddling the money away rather than spending it on its intended purpose.
I've made that claim, although Selkirk might have done so too. In any event, I've come to doubt whether it's really true. Consider that there are many Sunbelt states that are as knee-jerk Republican as NYC is knee-jerk Democratic, yet they do just fine in terms of getting federal spending no matter which party's in office. I suspect that NYC's dismal history of squanderng federal money has made it difficult to get additional funding no matter the merit of the projects in question. Memories of the Beame Shuffle may persist in Washington.
"I have not seen any more recent data or studies that refute Moynihan's assertion."
You also have not been looking for any such data, so this comment is meaningless.
Really? You must know Stephen quite well to know how he has spent all his time since 1967.
You have no evidence to refute my comments. If you do, I'm all ears. As it is, per-pupil spending is fairly equal in most New York City schools and yet spending varies wildly.
If you want evidence, read "What No School Can Do" by James Traub in the New York Times Magazine on January 16, 2000.
Unlike filthy bigots like you, I actually cite my sources when I tell people they're wrong.
Actually, you were the one who out and out made a statement without bothering to check.
Yes, I did read the Traub piece. I remind you that the New York Times Magazine, while worth reading, is not scholarly literature, and quoting it does not replace scholarly research.
If you are interested in the subject, there are professional journals in education that you can consult.
You complain about ageism as bigotry, yet when given an opportunity to select and present scholarly evidence, you refuse to act as an adult would. You cannot have it both ways. You must decide what you want. That is your decision, not mine.
Why am I paying state taxes so that in New York State OUTSIDE New York City public school spending and employment can be off the charts relative to the national average? You have two different mindsets about schools for two different sets of people. None of these conservative think tanks EVER advocates lower school spending in districts where the majority of the children are White. Period. And I've written about these issues and dared them to do it. All I ever get back is a harrauph.
The correlation between spending and achievement is often weak, but it is not absent. Exeriments in schools have shown that when money is invested in additional tutoring help, counseling assistance, in a environment where enough money is spent to provide textbooks, access to computers and so on, graduation rates are higher and more students go to college or recognized vocational programs (I consider successful completion of a skilled trade - plumbing, electrical, tool and die making - to be as honorable an accomplishment as a college education, when the "master" title is attained and maintained. This involves years of study and practice).
I would argue for that. The best way is to privatize all schools. People would choose where it is best to spend their money. Those who cannot afford school would have the government pay for it, the same way the government buys food for those who can't afford it (food stamps).
Well, we've seen what Edison Schools tries to do. It doesn't make money (turns out economy of scale doesn't exist there the way it does in other industries), most of their schools (not all) perform at best average and often below average, and the taxpayers are not getting what they've been promised - but a few top officers and investors are taking home wads of cash.
Not so simple, is it?
I don't see how permanent contractors make any sense. I can understand contractors for temporary work, like a station renovation. The company does the work, and their equipment and employees move on when they're done. For something an agency does constantly, it seems to make sense to cut out the profit-taking middleman.
Sometimes the system works though. HBLR is on a DBOM (Design Build Operate Maintain) and that is working well. Would it have worked well directly under NJT? I don't know. NJT already has a light rail system in Newark, so it's not like it would have entered a new industry and would rather have an experienced company do it for them (another reason for permanent contractors).
School boards probably have more experience than Edison providing education.
Another reason why Edison schools might be performing poorly is because they were bad schools to begin with, and the school board thought that hiring the contractor would be a good idea to try to improve things.
Then there's what NYCT does with respect to escalator work - it hires contractors known to be incompetent, and gets an incompetent, years-too-long job in return.
It is bigotry.
yet when given an opportunity to select and present scholarly evidence
I'm supposed to go to a research library whenever I want to post on Subtalk? I've read a large number of your posts and yet I've never seen you present a single reference for any of your assertions, scholarly or otherwise.
you refuse to act as an adult would.
How is visiting a research library for every Subtalk post acting as an adult would?
You sir, are a PIECE OF SHIT, you have shown no evidence why I should respect you as a human being, or even as anything. Your comments are no different from those of people from days yore (and today too) who say that black people and women should not vote, like:
"I don't respect your opinion, you are just a lowly negro"
"I don't respect your opinion, you are just a hysterical woman"
"I don't respect your opinion, you are a mere peasant who owns no property"
"I don't respect your opinion, you are but a simple minor"
But it doesn't end with minors for you, does it? Not only do you attack me, and others, you've also attacked AEM7, who is 23. Where does it end for you? When you'll be 70, you'll decry people who are 50 for being "immature."
I have another quote, it's another type of -ism, but I follow it:
"I don't respect your opinion, you are an ignorant bigot"
When you can get a nationally recognized education for 2 or 3 or 4 kids at a cost of 8-10 grand per year it's an important consideration.
CG
That's right, NYC schools have a very bad image problem, one that may not be entirely deserved, but it's there. With a lot of suburban schools it's the opposite, their reputations may be better than justified.
My oldest is now entering a Catholic middle school with enormous teacher turnover, metal folding chairs because the school cannot afford to replace the furniture, no lunchroom, no gym, etc. And I have to pay for it over and above the taxes.
Most of the public school alternatives are worse than that, although in fairness my child did test into a "gifted" program but wanted to stay in the school with her friends. She is at that school to begin with because she entered elementary school in the prior fiscal crisis, when there were 35 kids in the kindergarten class in the school down the street, and no teaching materails.
Those outside are in no position to comment on the schools. Lots of parents we knew left, reluctantly, before elementary school, and middle school brought another frenzy and another exodus. And this is among parents with options. God help the children without them. At least they decided to tax us to death rather than crush the budget once again. But all the money will be going to pensions, not teachers or materials, in future years.
Either way, she'll get a Regents level education.
Most of my family (with the exception of my cousins who lived in the Upper East Side) grew up in the Catholic Schools. Our parents choose these schools because that's what they grew up with Haiti. IIRC, tuition for my youngest brother was $3000 for elementary school, and $5,500 for secondary school. With tuition increasing yearly, and with multiple children, one can see why younger parents prefer suburban schools. Private school tutition, IIRC starts around $10,000 is unafforable for most parents.
Public School kids learn more than their Catholic School counterparts, but the chance of graduating in Catholic Schools is a lot higher.
Interesting. This may be true. A neighbor of mine (who are black) a few houses down from me recently bought their house. He has some sort of management job in the subway system, and she is a conductor on the subway. They moved here from Hollis, where they rented.
(Interesting. This may be true. A neighbor of mine (who are black) a few houses down from me recently bought their house. He has some sort of management job in the subway system, and she is a conductor on the subway. They moved here from Hollis, where they rented.)
If the topic interests you, you might ask them why they made the choice they did. Why not Hollis or, for that matter, Brooklyn?
In college at Colgate, I lived in a house with a bunch of Puerto Rican and Dominican guys and gals from NYC. As far as I know, they're all gone. My roommate was from West Farms, but he never went back. He said that he didn't realize until he got out of the city how violent it was, and he wanted nothing to do with it. Another guy was walking down the street in West Harlem with his daughter, who pointed out a used crack vial and asked what it was. He was gone to the suburbs soon after. You ask these guys about fomer neighbors who went bad. They're all still here (or "upstate").
If this continues, many Black and Latino neighborhoods will continue to be crime and welfare ridden ghettos no matter how many Blacks and Latinos succeed, based on selective in and out-migration.
However, those that replace them in Queens or Brooklyn are not necesarily bad. Young couples of all races may move in, before they get more money. They don't necessarily have to be poor replacing someone that had more money. They will probably have less money than the people leaving, but you have to remember that the people leaving probably moved there when they didn't have quite as much money either. They saved, and moved on.
Gentrification also can happen. I'm not saying that an area like Bedford-Stuyvesant is becoming gentrified, but the other day when I was taking photos at the Kosciuszko Street station last week, I was amazed to see a representation of almost all races there waiting for the train. That wasn't like that a few years ago. I think it's great, the whole city is becoming more mixed, and I really think people are really starting to be able to live together better than anytime in the recent past.
You may be onto something about this sort of transition. It is possible that the city may see fewer and fewer families, relatively speaking that is, and more and more singles and couples without children. Indeed there's some anecdotal evidence that 9/11 accelerated this sort of turnover, especially in Lower Manhattan neighborhoods - Battery Park City in particular - that were most severely affected.
I see this transition as having both good and bad aspects as far as transit is concerned. It's good, in the sense that younger single people are probably more willing to use the subway than are people with children. It's bad, in the sense that a more transient population has less incentive to support new transit projects that probably won't open until they're long since off to the suburbs.
No community in Queens can be viewed any longer as a bastion of any white ethnic group. Even Maspeth and Glendale have seen a significant infusion of Hispanic and Asian residents.
Yeah, huh? And now on Broadway in Brooklyn you see beau coup more white faces than when I first started coming around there in the early `70s. Many more, which I attribute to the steady increase in the Russian, Polish and Eastern European population of the city. Demographics can surely surprise. Who knows? In twenty years, Broadway could start to look like Brighton Beach.
Sure, but by then Brighton Beach might be Little Dakar, Vietnam-town or who knows what?
This is a great city.
CG
People who don't ride the subway are missing out on the most convenient two-dollar world tours they can get.
Yeah, huh? And now on Broadway in Brooklyn you see beau coup more white faces than when I first started coming around there in the early `70s. Many more, which I attribute to the steady increase in the Russian, Polish and Eastern European population of the city. Demographics can surely surprise. Who knows? In twenty years, Broadway could start to look like Brighton Beach.
That's the basic "beggars can't be choosers" phenomenon. People (white, black, or otherwise) without money will always flock to the lowest-priced housing stock, thus populating neighborhoods and stabilizing/increasing property values without the evils of gentrification.
Eventually, however, these neighborhoods will become either minority or gentrified, as the white ethnics now living there move away to the suburbs or the Sunbelt. In fact, I'll bet that Maspeth, Glendale etc. have seen significant demographic changes in the past decade or so. As the 'hoods change, demand for transit service will increase.
By the way, by "Laurenton" did you mean "Laurelton?" If so, I believe that's already a minority area.
And they're wrong: residential property values also rise. This is well documented.
Perhaps this is true of projects that actually get built. It's not difficult, though, to see how some proposed projects that didn't get done would have had a negative impact on real estate values in the areas they were planned to go through.
Putting a trolley back on Germantown Av in Philly, for example, or in New York, making the Second Av Subway an elevated train.
Good point. In addition, values might suffer a bit if it's expected that the project will be under construction for a prolonged period.
There are basically two variations on the NIMBY theme:
1. The pseudo-NIMBY's want the service, but not the construction needed to make service a reality. (This is the basic motivation for the anti-SAS crowd.)
2. The true, die-hard NIMBY's object to the service and the construction. They don't actually oppose access to the rest of the city; they fear the rest of the city will have access to them. (This was the basic motivation of the anti-M31-extension crowd on York Avenue.)
1. The pseudo-NIMBY's want the service, but not the construction needed to make service a reality. (This is the basic motivation for the anti-SAS crowd.)
2. The true, die-hard NIMBY's object to the service and the construction. They don't actually oppose access to the rest of the city; they fear the rest of the city will have access to them. (This was the basic motivation of the anti-M31-extension crowd on York Avenue.)
Unfortunately, there is #3 -- those who do not, in reality, have any reason to object to anything, but know that given the city's history for things that absolutely have to get done to benefit the powerful, those who can act as obstructionists can cut a deal to be bought off. No one is going to buy people off to expand the subway.
Not true. You don't know the history of your agency. The 63rd Street extension involved a great deal of "buy-off" to get accomplished, even if the money did not necessarily go into a given corrupt person's pocket. The SAS will involve a fair amount of neighborhood concessions, some of which will amount to "buy-offs."
Of course the Port Authority was ready with quite a few handouts when it built AirTrain.
Isn't the plan to build most of the SAS via TBM rather than cut-and-cover at least in part a way of deflecting neighborhood opposition?
Yes it is, but TBM is also cheaper. I think you will have a reasonable accomodation of the neighborhood. What I'm talking about is making unreasonable demands as a means of getting paid off, literally, in cash grants either for individuals or for "non-profits" that provide "jobs."
No one is going to do that here. The powers that be would simply let the line die, with a "sauce for goose" smirk about liberals being hoisted on their own petard. The judges that generally allow NIMBY projects to last for years, killing projects later approved by delaying them, will either allow this to happen or sense the shifting political winds and slap the fake-NIMBYs down.
If I recall correctly, there was a proposal to literally pay off people living along the few residential blocks north of Ditmars that would be along the el structure if the N were extended to LGA.
That was my suggestion, actually. But paying off people on two blocks for being permanently next to an El is different than paying people off on 175 blocks for temporary construction impacts. I'd only pay off people who left, and turned their property over to the goverment.
CG
Once upon a time, bus route M31 operated as a shuttle along York Avenue, with its southern terminal at Lexington/59th for subway connections. As part of a major route restructuring, NYCT proposed to consolidate the 57th and 59th Street crosstowns by extending the M31 west across 57th Street to the far West Side.
Manhattan Community Board #8 (Upper East Side) initially endorsed the plan. However, when Boards #4 (West Midtown), #5 (Central Midtown), #6 (East Midtown), and #7 (Upper West Side) also endorsed the plan, Board #8 - dominated by taxi-commuters - instantly reversed itself and vigorously opposed the plan. ("Easy access to West Midtown would be nice, but not if West Midtown has easy access to us. Besides, we need our shuttle to Bloomingdales.")
As a compromise, NYCT implemented a hybrid plan which left the M31 alone but started a new "semi-crosstown" route, M58, running from York/72nd to 57th/Broadway via York Avenue and 57th Street. The basic travel pattern instantly became one of transfers between the M31 and the M57/M58. Based on this, the original M31 plan was later implemented, and the M31 ridership has grown like wildfire ever since.
CG
That argument ultimately failed because the OA is a subsidiary agency - effectively a contract carrier. The entire city is MTA territory, and thus both TA and OA territory.
Pig's version of the story is the only version I've ever heard until today.
Incidentally, the consolidation of the 59th Street and 57th Street crosstowns was implemented without the help of the M31 or M58. The M28 along 57th and the M103 along West End were merged into the M57, the M30 was cut short to 57th and 8th (it had previously run to 72nd and CPW), and the M72 was created as a useful 72nd Street crosstown (the M30 had previously been the closest approximation there was). The M58 was also born on this date, but it wasn't essential to the rest of the plan.
I don't know about a general rune, but property values soared in Lindenwold when the PATCO line was built with its terminal there.
Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of this study, and having been peripheral to my research of 40+/- years ago, I can't even say where a copy could be found, but the study must be relatively well known, because I've heard of it referred to elsewhere.
An important question in modern urban planning is what a transit extention would be mean in terms of related growth and the population in the target area. If the service if attractive and the area attractive to well-paid commuter, property values will go up guaranteed. If the transit stop is combined with high-density apartments, wider higheways and greatly increased traffic, neighbors on the periphery of this area could see their values drop.
There are so many variables now that I'm not sure you could make a single statement. When the Babylon Line (existing since 1865) was elevated in 1963 in Babylon Village nice old homes near the station took a dive, I suppose from people now in the shadow of the massive new elevated station. Many of these houses ended up being purchased by the village and torn down for parking.
However, in the '80s people began to see the walk-to-transit issue as more attractive than the proximity to train noise issue was a turn-off, and some fairly expensive condos were built literally next to the tracks east of the station.
So the answer is not so simple.
"If the transit stop is combined with high-density apartments, wider higheways and greatly increased traffic, neighbors on the periphery of this area could see their values drop."
From the highway and traffic, if that occurs, not from the high density housing. Often these days, the highway is already there, the negative effect on property values has already occurred, and the transit line encourages values to recover.
Or, having an EMU roll through a grade sepperated line through a town every 30 minutes likely bumps values up. A moaning diesel doing the same at grade level every 2 hours is likely to drop it.
The key is a system that's there when you need it, not there when you don't. Part of NJT's rationale for continued electrification as opposed to dual mode operation was that electrics are siginificantly quieter, thus residents aren't as opposed to higher frequencies, whereas to so with diesels would require sound barriers of some sort to go up.
I live about 1 mile from the Oyster Bay line, and can hear the trains going through all the time. I work across the street from the Lawrence train station, and am oblivious to the trains passing. It's no secret which line is which, or which I'd rather live next to , and a lot of people are like that.
Or, having an EMU roll through a grade sepperated line through a town every 30 minutes likely bumps values up. A moaning diesel doing the same at grade level every 2 hours is likely to drop it.
The key is a system that's there when you need it, not there when you don't. Part of NJT's rationale for continued electrification as opposed to dual mode operation was that electrics are siginificantly quieter, thus residents aren't as opposed to higher frequencies, whereas to so with diesels would require sound barriers of some sort to go up.
I live about 1 mile from the Oyster Bay line, and can hear the trains going through all the time. I work across the street from the Lawrence train station, and am oblivious to the trains passing. It's no secret which line is which, or which I'd rather live next to , and a lot of people are like that.
It'd be interesting to see the various demographics comparing the different Philadelphia neighborhoods, is West Philly doing better than the great Northeast, with it's decade's old fight against any transit improvement? Is South Philadelphia, with it's mediocre transit situation and BSS doing as well as West Philly? Has the decrease in R6 service on the Cynwyd branch actually hurt places out along Wynfield Ave?
The last one I actually know, about 3-4 months ago while looking for an apartment we looked at a place out on Wynfield Ave, right in front of the Wynfield Ave R6 stop, a massive high rise apartment. The place was kind of run down, and was too far to really be considered. However the guy that showed us the apartment said that his building used to be full when Septa ran a full schedule on the R6, but with it's loss, many people hadn't renewed their leases. I mean the R6 stop really was in the backyard of this place, however with only 3 or so trains into center city, and 3 or 4 back, plus a long walk up to City Line Ave for a bus, it just wasn't worth it. With more R6 service that place very easily could have been perfect, without it it's very likely that it could go under.
NYC invested in bringing transit back from a state of poor repair. This was far more important than any expansion. Obviously, you never appreciated it, but I'm glad the rest of New York did.
In Philly, there's been relatively little investment (but the Commuter tunnel finished in the 1980s and the renovation of the Market-Frankford line has been very good). The University of Pennsylvania took the lead and invested in its neighborhood.
The trolley lines and the MFL provided the critical and necessary prerequisites to this (meaning, property values are supported by their presence).
In New York, there is a parallel: look at what Columbia Univ. is doing around the 168th St area.
Copy and paste:
www.trainweb.org/phillynrhs/RPOTW030803.2.html
For photos and the test train in the new station.
http://www.trainweb.org/phillynrhs/RPOTW030803.html
http://www.trainweb.org/phillynrhs/RPOTW030803.3.html
http://www.trainweb.org/phillynrhs/RPOTW030803.2.html
Very nice indeed! Let this to be a practice for what to come durring the time they are rebuilding the elevated evl statuture on Market Streets!
Copy and paste:
www.trainweb.org/phillynrhs/RPOTW030803.2.html
For photos and the test train in the new station.
I called Al Scala, because he didn't have the courtesy to return my phone call in the first place. He was nonchalant but became arrogant when I challenged him on why 409 was held for an air conditioned train (151).
This issue isn't going to die (though I thought some of the passengers were in the tropical heat) until I get a satisfactory answer. It may take time, but I'll get one.
Michael
Washington, DC
Red Line Subway-------A or 1
Blue Line Light rail--B or 2
Green Line Light rail-C or 3
Gold Line Light rail--D or 4
Since they were built and completed in that order those are the assinged designations I've given to them. Not a bad idea if you want my opinion.
Since they were built and completed in that order those are the assinged designations I've given to them. Not a bad idea if you want my opinion. >>
Actually, the Blue Line was completed first--opened July 14 1990, while the Red Line began service January 30, 1993.
I think there was discussion at MTA of eventually having letters or numbers for the rail lines, also I think they were considering different letters (or numbers) for the Wilshire/Western and Hollywood/North Hollywood branches of the Red Line, even though internally both branches are the same line (802).
Can anyone clarify?
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Can anyone clarify?"
Using the dimension command in my CAD program I come with 5% = 2.8624052261 degrees. Thats with accuracy set at 15 places right of the decimal point. So 2.86 degrees is close enough.
Aren’t computer great.
John
Chuck Greene
Nothing as fancy as Solid Works, do an occasional house plan using Designcad. Have my own D size pin plotter.
John
Take care,
Chuck Greene
Besides doing house plans I also did shop drawings when I was building custom cabinets for a living.
I paid about $2,500.00 for it new back in the early 1990s. I would be lucky if I could get $100.00 for it today. You can’t even get pins for it any more, I have a work around for this problem. The plotter is so old that there are no 32 bit drivers so I can’t plot from a computer running Windows NT 4 of 2000. With $2,500.00 today one can get a entry level D size 300 DPI inkjet plotter.
John
If I ever get around to getting a new plotter, this is probably what I will get.
John
If you haven't learned about tangents, then it's delta y/delta x, meaning the change in vertical position between two ends of the slope, divided by the horizontal change.
If you're in a high school algebra class, you should know about tangents.
Also, R32 #3542-3543 was running today on the E (what a surprise! They both have knobs. Jamaica Yard must really be desperate).
I also saw a salad train of R-32GE's and R-38's (and I'm not sure but there may have been a pair of 32's in there too) running on the (A).
Also, R38 #4050 has knobs, running on the (A).
If this aint what you talkin about, then IDK. Yes, I have seen another track parallel to the HBLR ROW, and I've seen freight trains on it. I think it goes to Greenville. Sorry, but I got no other info.
The alternate access than through the PATH Cut at JSQ is via the National Docks Secondary originating at Greenville Yard.
Here are two relevent ETT diagrams
Also, what happened to the NYS&W's Edgewater Tunnel?
The River Line uses the former Erie Northern Branch/NYSW main to the old Erie Tunnels, thence to the National Docks Branch IIRC, as opposed to the old route that was usurped by the HBLRT (old NYWS&B tunnels, then via Weehawken and west side of Hoboken to NDB).
The route to the Passaic & Harsimus line (former PRR, parallel PATH running) has been open for decades; the River Line trains always had access to this.
PS. AFAIK, the part of the former River Line (now HBLRT) right-of-way that goes between Hoboken and Weehawken Tunnel is part of the former Erie Weehawken Branch.
I have never been to France and would appreciate any information any Subtalkers could provide about the route I need to travel. I suppose I could rent a car to get around, but I would sure like to check out the Paris metro while I'm over there. I'm trying to make keep the trip to a bare minimum of days, so I was wondering if I could use transit to get from the airport to my ex-wife's house. She has zero interest in public transit so she is no help to me (in more ways than one, but this isn't the place for that). So, I'll be landing at de Gaulle airport and I need to get to a town called Chailly en Brier (postal code for the town is 77930). She tells me she is nowhere near de Gaulle (actually she is very close to Orly, but apparenlty there are no flights between Orly and NY).
Any tips on making the land part of the trip via transit would be greatly appreciated.
Also, a consultation with an attorney familiar with these issues would be in order.
Click on "ENGLISH" in the upper right hand corner of the first screen.
www.ratp.fr/
Hit the "english" button in the upper right hand corner. You'll need to go to the Metro section of the site, but there is also an RER line in town, and the rail lines are what go out to the airports.
Thanks for posting that.
It's a very useful site. It integrates all public transit: Metro, RER, SNCF, LRV, and bus for the entire Ile de France region. All transit companys' schedules are integrated along with maps. It provides door-to-door routing without having to go through half a dozen different sites.
Makes one wonder why the MTA can't do anything like that. Then again, the MTA's NYCT can't even publish complete timetables.
If your purpose is to just pick up your son, you could rent a car and avoid going into Paris at all. The airport is northeast of the city and Chailly en Brière is about 60 km from Paris in a south-southeasterly direction. If you want to see Paris also, public transportation may be better.
There is good public transportation into Paris from Charles De Gaule Airport, so that should not be a problem. Like New York, Paris is a good city to just park your car and take public transportation once you arrive there. Bus and Metro maps are available and easy to understand. I am sure there is a commuter train or bus from Paris to Chailly en Brière, which you should be able to locate (both fare and schedules) on the internet before you go. Then you could use a taxi to get to your final destination. It is simpler, cheaper and more interesting than renting a car, which are highly taxed, as is gasoline.
If your son is old enough to read and write French, he could be your guide in Paris, an experience that should be enjoyable for both of you.
Tom
I don't look at pornography, but if I did, I would say that these pictures bring me more joy than porn ever could. Only a subway buff can understand this.
Oh yeah? 1689 wasn't so clean when Selkirk was done with it ;^)
Meanwhile Nancy was giving me the when-he-worked-for-the-TA-he-hated-it-but-now-he's-all-gooey spiel.:)
But we never did make it down there. It was a genuine thrill though getting to run an Arnine without the TA nonsense swirling around the cab. And Lou and Thurston were just great. If the TA had people like THEM working there, the trains would run on time and the attitudes of staff would be MUCH improved. Joining Branford was one of the SMARTEST things I've done in the last 30 years.
Robert
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
(2) 7 Av Express
All Times: 241st Street Bronx - Flatbush Avenue Brooklyn, local in Bronx and Brooklyn, Express in Manhattan
(3) 7 Av Express
All Times except nights: express stops in Manhattan and local stops in Brooklyn 148th Street, Manhattan - New Lots Avenue, Brooklyn
Nights: Lenox Shuttle(10:30pm-4:30am), MANHATTAN SERVICE ONLY, from 148th Street to 135th Street Manhattan, transfer to (2) at 135th Street from service to/from lower Manhattan, Brooklyn
<3> 7 Av Express/Bronx Local: Rush hours only(7:20-8:20am, 5:10-6:10) From Dyre Avenue Bronx, to New Lots Avenue Brooklyn, Local in Bronx and Brooklyn, Express in Manhattan
(4)Lexington Avenue Express/Local
All times except Nights: Woodlawn Bronx to Utica Avenue Brooklyn, express in Manhattan abd Brooklyn, local in Bronx(rush hours skips 138th Street in Bronx peak direction)
Nights(1:30-4:30) Woodlawn Bronx- New Lots Avenue Brooklyn local in Bronx, Manhattan and Brooklyn
(Brooklyn local from 11:30-5:30)
<4> Lexington Avenue Express/Jerome Express(TRIAL RUN)
Rush Hours only(7:15-7:45am, 5:10-5:40pm)
from New Lots Avenue Brooklyn to Woodlawn Bronx
express in Bronx(peak) Manhattan and Brooklyn
(5) Lexington Avenue Express/Bronx Local/Express
Middays, Evenings, Weekends: Dyre Avenue Bronx, South Ferry Manhattan
express in Manhattan, local in Bronx
Rush Hours: Dyre Avenue Bronx, South Ferry Manhattan or Flatbush Avenue Brooklyn
express in Bronx(peak 6:00-10:00am, 3:00-7:00pm) Manhattan, and Brooklyn
Nights: Dyre Avenue Shuttle (10:30-4:30 am weekdays, 10:00pm-6:00am weekends) BRONX SERVICE ONLY from Dyre Avenue to E 180th Street Bronx local, transfer to (2) for service to/from Manhattan
<5> Lexington Avenue Express/White Plains Road Thru Express
Rush Hours only: (6:15-9:15am, 3:20-6:20pm) From 241st Street Bronx to South Ferry Manhattan, or New Lots Avenue Brooklyn
Express in Bronx(peak),Manhattan,and Brooklyn
(6) Lexington Avenue Local
All times except nights from 177th Street-Parkchester or Pelham Bay Park Bronx to Brooklyn Bridge Manhattan local
Nights: Pelham Bay Park Bronx to South Ferry Manhattan local in Bronx and Manhattan
<6> Lexington Avenue Local/Pelham Express
Middays, Rush Hours, and Weekday Evenings until 9:00: Pelham Bay Park Bronx, Brooklyn Bridge Manhattan
express in Bronx(peak 6:10-12:30 to Manhattan, 12:10-9:10 from Manhattan)
(7) Flushing Local
All Times from Times Square Manhattan, to Main Street Queens
<7> Flushing Express
Middays, Rush Hours, and weekdays evenings until 10:30 pm from Times Square Manhattan to Main Street Queens(6:00-12:30 to Manhattan, 1:10 -10:45 from Manhattan)
(8) Westchester Avenue local (2,5,6 lines connector)
All times
From Southern Blvd - Whitlock Avenue Bronx
(9) Broadway/7 Av local/skip stop
Rush Hours only: from South Ferry Manhattan to 242nd Street Bronx, skip stop
(10) 42nd Street local
all times
from Times Square(7 Av) to 2 Avenue Manhattan
Thankfully I am not one of them. I am nutty enough.
The <4> is a trial(for about 3 months, notice it doesn't run that often)
the (8) is the 2,5 and 6 line connector and the (10) is the 42nd Street shuttle extended to connect to the SAS
other than that, nothing else is out of place
10 - how would you have a tunnel straight thru the mezzanine at GC, I do think it sould be extended to at least the mezzanine at GC instead of walk a long corridor.
JONN
I think a transfer passageway would be better than a connecting line (which I don't even think is physically possible from 2 3-track lines) for the 2/5 and 6 in the Bronx.
The diamond 3 is a nice idea!
How about some more hours on the peak express in the PM say it ends at 8pm. Hmm the idea of it starting from New Lots isn't bad but then the confusion may set in.
(10) 42nd Street local
all times
from Times Square(7 Av) to 2 Avenue Manhattan
I like this idea and if the SAS were to be built, people won't have to take the M42 & M104 to transfer there.
And this is a thing that just entered my mind (such as it is) to ask about...
I recently got a new credit card, a new first for us here at the abbey... but I am certain that I cannot remember my pin number..
Do you need your pin number to use the MVM? I certainly haven't needed it any place else, but I have never tried the cash machine.
Elias
Chuck Greene
Okay, so ATM's usually don't have LCD's, but it sounds better than
The CRT tube at the ATM machine prompted me to enter my PIN number.
Chuck Greene
No, the thread is completely unique :)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Incidentally, if you ever are asked for a credit card PIN and you enter it, you will be charged cash advance fees.
I don't know any of my credit cards' PINs and I don't want to know them. Cash advances are expensive.
Not necessarily... depends on how the card is set up. I have a VISA account of long standing (20+ years) with a credit union and that VISA card doubles as my ATM card, although it is not a VISA check card. Depending on the menu selection I make after entering my PIN, I can (among other choices) either withdraw funds from one of my accounts or obtain a cash advance; only if I select a cash advance will I be charged those fees.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Tell me about it, online banking I accidentally transferred from Credit to savings instead of Checking to savings, damned words all look the same, even though the money was only out of there for 30 seconds it still cost me $3.
Nor do I, but I've a horrible feeling I'm going to have to.
The credit card companies here in the UK are starting talking about something called 'chip and pin'.
The chip bit seems to be already pretty well in place. My credit cards have had a chip in them for a year or more now, and many (most?) retailers now read the chip (by dropping the card into a slot on top of the reader) in preference to swiping the magnetic stripe.
The pin bit means that we are going to have to enter a pin instead of (as well as?) signing the slip. I do not know how that is going to work in places like restaurants; perhaps the server will have to bring a portable reader/keypad to your table.
Wall Street on the 4/5 is one of three stations I'm aware of that have an MVM inside fare control. What are the two others? (Or are there more than two? It's quite possible.)
I'm not going to tell you about the other two until others have a chance to answer. Believe it or not, a few SubTalkers might possibly be asleep right now! Speaking of which, my bed is calling.
If you've noticed, were there alot of people that were hanging out on the station? Near the turnstiles? Chances are they are the ones who knocked out the MVM's. Chances are they were probably selling swipes at the turnstiles. They are the type that will allow you to get on the subway for $1 right away. No waiting on line to get a card.
I'll know better next time and avoid the "swipers"
Chuck Greene
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Unless you are looking closely, (Someone in the booth or a cop keeping an eye out) it'll look like someone just taking a look at the machine. The MVM won't regiater as OOS until someone tries to use the machine and can't.
Put the guys out of business quickly
NOTHING
ie: S/A are useless to deter crime
The answer is add more machines at these stations, encourage more uses to buy with thier credit card. Put up signs where of where they could buy metrocards at third part retailer both in the station and at hotels.
Reducing S/A needs to be offset with a smaller rise in MVM maintainers
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
It is possible that SEPTA is saying, "We can't get parts; we don't want to continue supporting maintenance of an odd vehicle type; it's cheaper and easier to run a bus at this point."
I'm not saying I agree, or that this in fact is their argument (I'm really just speculating).
The first instance I personally know of was the discontinuance of the 47 trolley line, which was "temporarily" suspended for reconstruction around Reading Depot (IIRC). Track was maintained and wire maintained on both sides of the construction area, but as time went on and pressure lessened for restoration, they found that they could abandon the line completely. Unless someone can show me an exception, every trolley abandonment since 1958 (except maybe 6-Ogontz Ave.) was accomplished by first suspending line or one or other good or bad pretext.
Why do it this way? First, it's been done this way for decades, so, as I say, there's a sort of internal culture to it. But also, consider that it's a way to bypass the political give and take of a straightforward abandonment procedure in a populous not too amenable to losing electric service.
As to the TTs themselves, they are something of an anomoly in current transit planning. The BMT was a proponent of the "All-4" concept (rapid transit, trolley-trolley coach-bus). In this theory, TTs were a precursor to trolley lines--when a service was too well patronized for gas buses but didn't justify the capital expenditure of a trolley line for the near future, a TT was a possibility. If a rail trolley was later indicated, the power distribution system would already be in place.
Later, the theory went the opposite way, TTs were a clean, flexible substitute for an abandoned rail line that allowed a company to trade on the power distribution infrastructure yet dump rail maintenance. Johnstown, PA did this. I think Dayton, OH is another example.
SEPTA would undoubtedly like to dump the TTs for the reasons you cite--parts are harder to come by, it is a oddball fleet, and so on. Add to that, unlike buses, heavy rail and light rail, there is not much of a constituency--industrial, political, or planning--for TTs.
Still, I'm not sure, with out current concerns about clear air and energy independence, that an existing TT system should be allowed to disappear so casually.
Chuck Greene
"FTC is SEPTA's busiest transportation center with more than 50,000 daily riders traveling through the station on 15 bus routes, a trackless trolley route (with buses operating temporarily in place of trolleys) and the El."
(My emphasis) So they're still talking the talk...
Chuck Greene
Route 66 will be back to Trackless Trolleys in about 6 months.
A lot has to do with the rebuilding of the "head-house" at Bridge St.
Apparently, the structure at Pratt St. will be demolished (no big loss).So hang on to your twin poles, gang, there coming back!
They will have to drag the TT's back from Midvale, I guess.
Chuck Greene
Yes, they are called trolley buses. They are also called trackless trolleys.
They were called trackless trolleys when Public Service Coordinated Transport ran them between Camden and Haddonfield when I was a kid.
Chuck Greene
I thank TT was first, to differentiate them from rail trolleys.
The current moribund state of the TT, at least in urban planning circles is perhaps signalled by the fact that no new term has been floated to describe the vehicles or system. It's popular to come up with new phrases to put a modern spin on concepts: e.g., light rail for trolley or tram; metro or heavy rail for subway; bus rapid transit for limited busway or exclusive bus lane.
One San Diego group has even had the chutzpah to style an LRV-designed but fossil-fuel powered rubber-tired bus as a "Flex-Trolley." No joke. How times change.
Chuck Greene
Chuck
Bob
Chuck Greene
Don't have AOL Instant Messenger? Download it free here at www.aim.com
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
While in the timed area of the 60 St tube, the speed limit is 45mph. Once you have passed the last timer, you can wrap it up and if you're really lucky get up to about 54. Anyone going faster than that was speeding in the GT section.
Is this the same 60th street tube? Theres barely any signals in that tunnel. So you can go as fast as you can as long as you don't overshoot the station.
Even at overspeed, rest assured, the balls will slap you upside the head if you do something stupid, or are dead. ESPECIALLY NOW since wrapping it CANNOT result in sufficient "ramming speed" ... the balls (shunt) were given the post-op shemale number after the WillyB ... THAT was a downgrade too. As someone else said, "not to fret - this train AIN'T GOT NO BALLS." ... like Homeland security, ain't nothing orb-shaped allowed to be in the presence of Red blooded Americans - after all, them towelhead churches have orbs on top. HMMMMmmmmm. :-\
... and "gunning it" once clear of the ST's ensures that you'll make it all the way back UP the tunnel.
*MEANT* to say GT's ... don't wanna be inaccurate ... folks WITH the show know that a GT and an ST really means the same thing, just different rule numbers - if you hit it, makes no difference. :)
Clearly, going uphill, speed is your friend...
And don't mind MY perspective, I did Arnines ... you were often (with so many dead motors, and their "dynamic" braking ability was NEVER CONNECTED, thus USELESS) at a loss to be threatened by the timers clearing on a DOWNGRADE ... but upgrades were downright SCARY ... like the MannyB out of DeKalb or Grand ... if you didn't chase the timers headed up, you'd STALL and require a similar carset to be worked around all the OTHER traffic to bone up for a 20 car luxury lay and sock it to ya until you got over the hump ... heh. (note: NO mention of tripcocks, anglecocks or "playing with a handle")
Those of us who RAN the prewar cars on the subways though were scared QWAPLESS of "losing momentum" on the rails - and our motor instructors TAUGHT us that "environmentalists COAST for GOD" ... applying power was an ANATHEMA in them "energy crisis" times ... before the REAL one hit. :(
But yeah, the system is OVER-engineered to dump a perfectly good train for no reason at all. Guy DIED, motors were overpowered, brake blending was INSUFFICIENT, signalling TOO close together, but everyone who got hired up SINCE has to deal with beakies with frigging radar guns. :(
Like I've said too often, I was white boy on the subway - and derided because I was a member of the "Rank and File" faction of TWU along with my buddies who'd come to my house and proudly burn a ceremonial watermelon on my front lawn ... they said it then, and they've proved it now ... an ORANGUTAN could sit in the cab and pull levers for all the respect those of us who didn't fall asleep watching our IRON are getting out of the MTA these days. Once upon a time, what I did wasn't just SKILLED labor, it was LICENSED labor ... a DIPLOMA for the trade. And dealing with that steel pounding ON steel, I felt somewhat respected, even if my wigs dissed me and my partners. Today, I'd be VIOLENT over the emasculation of conductors and motorpeople to the charade of "management."
Sorry for the lecture, but you've either got to be DEAD or stupid to run a tripper THESE days - and with WD's and blind stops added on top of all the rest of the insults to motorpeople, words CANNOT describe how GRATEFUL I am to NOT be part of that hosejob the MTA's hosting lately. I certainly wouldn't be inspired to show my professional extremes as well as expertise in FIXING a bad order car with a minor, doesn't have to be bad-ordered, problem. Yawn, I'll wait for a CI.
Damned shame it is ... even in my most extreme "gotta make time" situations, I *never* thought of doing something stupid, like hitting an interlock past 10 MPH, or taking a sharp curve over 20 or whatever the signs said ... but on a STRAIGHTAWAY, or tenth car PAST the curve, I knew what those R/10 signs meant, and WRAPPED IT every chance I got.
Now ... since this had a BVE flavor, one of the things that amuses me to no END is you can run reds with no penalty, but accidentally DUMP the precious, and you rot for 5 minutes of delay. Not real at all - at least on the Arnines, you could move again in ten seconds or less. And changing ends for a relay meant simply, center the puppy, handle out and WALK. Train retained the charge until you got to the other end. Every wonder why I was only too happy to do Arnine duty? That ME-23 saved your STONES. Arrive late, as long as you relayed on time for the outbound and did your starting lights on time, you were ON TIME as far as the TMO went. INBOUND didn't get written up unless you RELAYED late. :)
Northbound was green/green on the PM shift, and green/yellow going back. Wonder why I was obsessed with my paddles? I got to work them puppies for a living. :)
Once again, sorry for putting on the "official" hat that day, it was the only way I ever played with trains, straight and narrow, BY the book. The TA way ... only way I knew. Made Unca Lou nertz it did. :)
Then there are the railfans and foamers who'd go ga-ga if the lead motor didn't have headlights.:) That was my exact reaction when the last prewar A train I ever rode on pulled into 42nd St. one Saturday morning in January of 1970. When I saw the absence of headlights, I said, "Oh, goody!" out loud.
I wonder how many others have run 1689 at Branford who also ran those cars for a living. Not too many, I bet.:)
Why did they pick the letter Q (--.-)? Are there meanings for sounding the letters A through P on the horn?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Now see, see why I always respect Mr. Greenberger? It's very rare, I hardly ever see an equivalent statement on any boards. Or to utilize a certain vernacular...dis brother is a righteous dude.
Now see, see why I always respect Mr. Greenberger? It's very rare, I hardly ever see an equivalent statement on any boards. Or to utilize a certain vernacular...dis brother is a righteous dude.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
And while the most recent releases are slick and all, they ARE slower than earlier BVE routes because of all the added objects. On an older machine, the stutter of some of the newer routes as the CPU gets overloaded with drawing is noticeable and frame rates drop precipitously on all but the newest of machines.
I think Ed Yee's work is HIGHLY commendable for its time and I don't appreciate the nit-picking. Same goes for the fine work that Bob Marrero and Orin took upon themselves earlier in BVE's history. They may have been "basic" but they were real slick when they were first released.
#3 West End Jeff
Ain't that the truth. Even still using rotary phones, in some locations.
Peace,
ANDEE
1)Timers: Signals are timed to change to green if you reach them at no more than the allowed speed limit. Otherwise you will be passing a red signal, which will activate the tripper and stop your train.
2) Wheel detectors
3) Beakies with radar guns, they're not just for cops behind that billboard anymore. :)
:0)
What's sad though is back in the 70's, when I'd eat delays due to morons holding doors, or having to rot while my conductor went to car 9 and shoved a balky one shut to appease the indication fairy, it would be *ME* that would get yelled at. So like any other motorman, I'd crank it and hold it and charge the timers trying to get back those couple of minutes any chance or way I could just to not get yelled at when I got to the terminal. The thought of getting "gunned" along the way trying to make time is unappealing to me if I wasn't operating unsafely, but above the GT 25's in my face for no good reason. Back then, we didn't have speedos, we played by ear. And we knew what was safe and what wasn't, and never took risks.
But trains COULD go faster than posted speed safely in a lot of areas and that was where you could make time if you were "tardy" ... maybe one of these days, TWU can play candid camera at headquarters. Nah, they ain't got the balz.
I wonder if there's any movie footage anywhere of a train of R-1/9s slowing to a stop where the conductor is plainly seen climbing up and assuming the position. You can see him in The Wrong Man, but he's already on the step plates.
Dunno of any movies showing the procedure - I suppose the blue zoot suit dance wasn't terribly interesting to Hollyweird. :)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
#3 West End Jeff
Jimmy :0
Jimmy
Go here:
http://copper.takiweb.com/~ntwrkguy/bvesite/
and for assistance in making this FREE simulator work, go here:
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/
Enjoy! (and you WILL)
One of the museums that saved some of the CA&E cars is Trolleyville, located in Olmstead Township, Ohio. It operates through a well-maintained trailer park. Recently, they were notified that their operation had to move by the year 2006. They have about 40 cars in their collection. They are actively seeking a new location to display and operate their cars. Fortunately, the city of Cleveland is quite interested in building a historic trolley line in the downtown area, so there is a good possibility of at least some Trolleyville’s cars operated there.
The Wright Brothers flew their first powered airplane in 1903. But just a year prior to that, the John Stephenson Company built handsome interurban car #36 for one of the CA&E’s predecessors. In 1906, the Niles Car and Manufacturing Company produced another interurban, #303, also for a CA&E predecessor. As good luck would have it, both cars were saved and restored for operation by Trolleyville. They were used fairly regularly in museum operations there.
But through another stroke of good luck, these two cars now have a special place in electric traction history. Last weekend, on July 26 and 27, they were used in regular service on the Waterfront Line of the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority, to test the feasibility of using historic cars in regular service and to judge the public’s reaction to them. Hearing that this was to happen, I flew to Cleveland to witness this event. Waiting in Cleveland Union Terminal, the two magnificent giant cars, operating in multiple unit, rumbled into the terminal, interurban horn sounding, motor gears grinding and air brakes hissing. It was a sight to behold! Never before had I been on a true interurban car, so this was a special moment for me. But to think that #36 was built before the first powered airplane flight, and I then had to take a jet airplane to ride this car a century later, was genuinely a once-in-a-lifetime experience. The cars were restored quite well. The first round trip was made successfully, but during the second outbound trip, it was necessary to drop #36 because of a minor problem (I guess at 101 years of age, anyone or anything could be expected to develop a problem or two). #36 was then taken to Cleveland Union Terminal where it was on open display for the remainder of the weekend.
#303 was then the sole performer. While the Saturday schedule was somewhat erratic, on Sunday #303 ran flawlessly on a very tight regularly-spaced schedule between CUT and the end of the Waterfront Line as a nonstop express. Here was a true historic interurban operating on the same tracks and schedule as newer trolleys.
One can only wish the best of luck to the projected historic transit loop. It seems ironic that dozens of cities in the USA have chosen to return trolleys to their cities, while the two largest, Chicago and New York, continue to ignore this viable means of public transportation.... Imagine a historic trolley route on the abandoned High Line, running from Javits Center over the High Line, then on the the streets in the downtown area past the World Trade Center site right to South Ferry. What a practical line and major tourist attraction that would be, and you wouldn’t need to build a large bus terminal near the WTC, as passengers could utilize the trolleys frm the midtown area, where there are already large bus parking lots. But an operation like this is too practical and common sense for the City of New York - even though dozens of other cities have returned trolleys to their transit systems.
New York was one of the epicenters of the National City Lines tragedy, and one of the first cities to actually use buses (on 5th Avenue) without NCL prodding—they certainly would not want to admit that they were wrong by reintroducing LRT, would they.
Considering how important real estate value is in the metropolitan area, the people living/working in and around the existing High Line will file so many lawsuits your grandchildren will witness their resolutions. Never mind that a midtown-to-south ferry route might actually make sense in bringing in tourists (though it will bypass other tourist destinations in lower Manhattan, like City Hall and the NYSE).
I like your idea, Joe. However, it seems that the locals want the High Line demolished and the land sold off, while others want it turned into an elevated trail. Having rail traffic again would bring an even greater battle. As I understand it, some parts of the line have been built over already.
"Two Directions Possible for old NYC Rail Line"
Convert to an Elevated Trail or Demolish?
USA Today - Tuesday (7/29/03)
By Martha T. Moore, USA TODAY 7/29/03
"NEW YORK — Like a quiet green river, weed-covered railroad tracks run through Manhattan, hidden in plain sight 20 feet above the city's clogged avenues.
The High Line, an abandoned freight rail line in New York City's west side, is being considered for a park or demolition.
The 1.5-mile High Line freight tracks run on a viaduct between converted warehouses. It's a remnant of New York's industrial past that is now at the center of a debate about the future of urban redevelopment.
Property owners in the shadow of the elevated High Line want to tear it down to add marketable space in neighborhoods that have gone from gritty to chic.
A group of urban planners and artists wants to turn the High Line into a rails-to-trails pathway. It would be the only such urban elevated trail in the 12,000 miles of rail tracks around the country that have been converted to trails."
-----
The complete article is online at:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-07-28-highline_x.htm
Disgusting, IMHO. The tracks ought to have still been in service; not only that, but St. John’s Terminal ought to have been retained too and the whole shebang converted into a diesel terminal for passenger trains (Amtrak, Metro-North, even NJ Transit if the North River tunnels were properly ventilated, as a proper completion of the Aldene Plan that destroyed the CNJ Main Line).
A correction on the CA&E: All passenger service was abandoned at 12:15 p.m. on July 3, 1957, leaving commuters in downtown Chicago to fend for themselves. The Illinois Commerce Commission had just approved the CA&E's abandonment petition at that moment, and the CA&E just walked away. Even then, direct service to the Loop had been cut back in 1953 to Forest Park, when the CTA Garfield Park El was abandoned due to Expressway construction. The CA&E did operate some freight service up until 1963, when it was totally abandoned.
Also, one final note: The Trolleyville Museum in Olmstead Falls is now closed, but there are plans to open it up sometime next year for a trolley meet and Grand Finale for the museum. I tried getting information from the museum, but they're not answering any e-mails at this time.
Not quite correct. The original statement, that the CA&E was abandoned in 1961, was essentially correct. Passenger service was *suspended* in 1957, in theory temporarily. (The CA&E had no intention of reinstituting service, though - most trainmen were fired within a week.) Freight service continued until 1959, when that too was "suspended." Final permission to abandon the line was given in 1961 (if I remember correctly) and the entire railroad, including track and equipment, was sold (mostly for scrap) in 1962. You're probably thinking of the North Shore, which was abandoned in 1963.
Frank Hicks
Nice write up Joe. BTW I still have one of your traction annual that I'm listed in.
http://hometown.aol.com/awnicholls/CAER/main.htm
http://206.103.49.193/cae/cae.htm
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"People feel like there's nothing but order everywhere, and so they love to be a part of just one thing that nobody was expecting."
Because I'm goofy sometimes.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Cell phones would do the job just as well. You have an inferior solution looking for a problem.
Tom
Hardly. Cell phones do not work underground, and even if you were in an area with service, everyone would be using up their monthly minutes with every call. For the use we are desribing, the radios are MUCH better.
Cell phones are more popular than the radio and have a greater range when outdoors. The radios are still obstructed underground.
If you are on a subway train in a station, or even between stations, there is a clear line of sight usually between the first and last cars. The radios should have no problem communicating. If you are more then 2 miles away from your railfan buddies, then you deserve to be ditched.
For example Channel 5, sub-code 5.
From what I have heard on those radios (I have 2 of them) there is not much usage (at least not up by me). I guess they will take longer to become as popular as CB radios did years ago.
Cool car. Does it have a big V-8?
Well, of course PE should never have been removed, but LA was hypnotized more than other cities by the “freeway” concept about five decades ago. Of course, they paid for it in frequent smog. Now look at all the dough they are spending in order to bring a semblance of PE back so that people can actually move around the city…
BTW, nice pic of that center-door interurban. A Brill by any chance? There is an ex-Red Arrow (Philadelphia) Brill car operating up in Steamtown that has a similar configuration.
The E train currently runs more TPH then the F, so with that in mind and the G running full 8 car trains, here is what I propose.
E Line-Between 6:30am and 12:00am: 179 Street to World Trade Center, via. Hillside Avenue Express, Queens Blvd Express, 8th Avenue Local.
-Between 12:00am-6:30am: 179 Street to World Trade Center via, Hillside, Queens Blvd, 8th Avenue Local.
F Line-All Times: Jamaica Center to Coney Island, via Queens Blvd Express, 6th Avenue Local, Culver Local/Express Past Church Avenue during the am and pm rush.
V Line-Operates only between 6:30am and 12:00am: All Times: 179 Street to 2nd Avenue via. Hillside, Queens Blvd, 6th Avenue Local.
G Line-Between 6:30am and 10:00pm Operates Between Church Avenue and Court Square, Crosstown Local, Northern Culver Local: Between 10:00pm and 6:30am-71st Avenue to Church Avenue via Queens Blvd, Crosstown Locals.
R Line-Same As Current.
Now why did I do this?
1. 179 Street has enough room to easily relay the E and V trains.
2. Jamaica Center was always better meant for the F trains. The V being local the entire route force the E to be a Hillside Express once again and all the F to be the Full Queens Boulevard Express at all times.
3. The Surplus cars allows the G to be 8 75ft Cars plus extend its route to Church Avenue and 71st Avenue. I could send the G to Jamaica Center All Times, but the F line needs both tracks dedicated to it during the rush.
You cannot deny direct service to Manhattan to passengers boarding at F local stations in Brooklyn. At local stations south of 7th Avenue, passengers would have to wait for a G (which has much longer headways than the F), get off at 7th, and wait there for an F. At local stations north of 7th Avenue, the F would be inaccessible entirely (you've seen the condition of Bergen lower; it's not a usable station) -- passengers would have to stay on the G to Hoyt and cross over for the A or C, and you know as well as anyone else how unpleasant and time-consuming it can be to cross over at Hoyt. Those who need the F would then have to transfer again at Jay. Many passengers would end up spending more time waiting than riding -- all so that the passengers who live further out can save three or four minutes. Not worth it.
Aside from the Crosstown line proper, there is currently one station in the system that does not have direct service to Manhattan, at least during rush hours: Park Place on the Franklin shuttle, hardly a high-ridership station. (And it, at least, has single-transfer access to four major Manhattan trunk lines, soon five.)
There's a reason express service on that line only lasted nine years, and it's a good reason. If another service to Manhattan, like the V, provides local service, then the F can run express (or, alternatively, the F can stay on the local while the V provides the new express service), but the G cannot be the only local.
Well, actually, I had seen the notices in the newspapers. In that small-fonted "legal notice" area of the papers, including NY Daily News and Newsday. Where the MTA had listed proposals for funding for LIRR projects. I guess I'm talking at least five years ago. Even though it's fairly close to Jamaica Station I have always hoped to see Union Hall Street opened again. What the hell, there should be planning to reopen Bellaire again too. The Jamaica Avenue corridor from the city line to Jamaica hasn't seen any large civic improvements for many years. It puzzles me how those in-city commuter stations aren't bigger catalysts for the neighborhoods.
avid
1. Hempstead Branch.
2. Naw, not many at all. I think it was down to a couple of rush hour trains each way. This was around 1976. I recall the trip clearly. The station was bare but it was interesting to climb the narrow stairs in the small entrance building up to the platform. And it was wintertime so when I caught the train, before six p.m., it was dark. Very nice, uh, "vibes" there, to be on that platform in the middle of Jamaica. Echoes of Jamaicas' glory days. And the el was running then too so the whole effect was simply splended. I've always had a weak spot for those Queens Mainline stations anyway.
Well it does have better service. But it's not well situated to the main Jamaica Avenue shopping core. That would be the major reason for reopening the station. Although even I will admit it's unclear who the major users would be. If it was just for the Hempstead Branch that would limit its usefulness. But maybe there could be trains from other branches stopping there, say, at least every half hour. There are enough trains passing by for that level of service although I have little information on how the other branches would enable U.H.S. service. (As far as switching over to the station etc.)
Would riders be willing to come in from Mineola, Bethpage, Wyandanch etc. to shop on Jamaica Avenue? Maybe, but it would mean Jamaica Avenue would have to be a REALLY good destination to get too. It might not look very feasible today but down the road it could work. Jamaica needs something besides AirTrain to keep growing strong.
Also I haven't been on the DC subway in 8 years, so how does the fare collection work (I am from NYC).
All I remember they had paper fare cards with a stripe and your total amount on the back (updated each time the card went through the turnstile). Also I remember bus-subway transfers and those really weird turnstiles that take your card and return it to you once you go through the turnstile. They still have those turnstiles?
The WMATA fare collection mechanism is still the same as it has always been, although the fares have gone up recently. I'll let the DC folks comment more on that system; although I have ridden all of it, some parts I've only been on once. The ride across the Potomac is quite nice.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here's an itinerary that will give you an interesting look at many WAMATA lines. If you have three hours this is possible:
From Union Station take a Red Line train towards Silver Spring and Glenmont. Get off at Fort Totten. The Red Line (upper) Metro platform is in between the old B&O Mainline (now Amtrak) tracks. If you wait there's a good chance that a train will go through (Capital Limited passes at about 3:00 PM, I believe). Then go downstairs and take Green Line towards Greenbelt - you will be travelling alongside the CSX (nee B&O) for a while and also some interesting railfan sites, particularly at the last stop (Greenbelt) where the MARC station is adjacent. Take the Green Line back into DC but continue past Fort Totten all the way to Gallery Place. Get off and take a Yellow Line train (begins there) to the other end (Huntington), where you will cross the Potomac on a neat bridge into VA and then be next to Amtrak's ROW (former RF&P) at Alexandria. Return on the same line but switch to the Blue Line at Pentagon or Pentagon City and take that back into downtown DC - this time going under the Potomac in a deep tunnel.
Pentagon City, BTW, is a decent mall that offers the usual necessary amenties you will need when you stop - restrooms, food court, etc.
The all day pass was raised to $6, I believe, after the latest fare increase.
Ahh, Pentagon City, your family five fingered discount mall. : ) My fiancee is a store manager at children's store at the mall and it seems the merchandise develops legs and walks out.
I suggest getting an ALL DAY Pass with is $6 dollars now because of fare increase last month.
Metrorail to Metrobus — Get a free transfer when you enter the Metrorail station. It’s worth 85¢ off your bus fare when you show to bus driver. (from wmata.com)
How difficult is it to park and ride at the MBTA Blue Line stations at Wonderland and Beachmont? Specifically, if I arrive after 10 AM will all spaces be taken? According to the MBTA website there is no parking lot at Revere Beach - any street parking there?
Wonderland- You should be able to find parking here all year round at any time. Besides the T lots, there is (as mentioned by MBTA Vet) a large lot across 1A at the dog track (Wonderland) and two private lots on the beachside that only fill up once in a great while.
Revere Beach- All parking in this area is short term (2 hr?) metered and may or may not be enforced daily.
Beachmont has a T lot which may have some spots after 10a in August.
Suffolk Downs has a ton of free street parking which usually is taken by 8a in the summer, 6:30a during the rest of the year. There is also a small T lot which fills up after. The free street parking is in East Boston only, Revere will ticket and tow. Look for the city line!
Orient Heights T lot usually has a couple of dozen spaces left in the summer, not in the fall. This has the added advantage of being next to the yard. And at 10a, you'll get to see some pull-backs, coming off the road after the rush.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
#3 West End Jeff
Aside from the fact that the system did collapse in the 1980s, what effect would one car class over another, almost identical class have on that event?
Is Kiley highly regarded for his work in New York?
BBC article
World Report article
Telegraph article
When it leaves W4, it takes a seldom-used switch track and transfers to the 8th Ave (A/C) line just south of W4, which then re-connects with the F tracks coming out of the Rutgers St. tunnel just before Jay St/Borough Hall in Brooklyn.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
I went to see the progress of the Swing, and I was taken aback at what I saw. First off, the block between Bridge and Pratt sts was DRENCHED IN SUNLIGHT! The el structure was demolished, only the part covering the intersection of Bridge, Bustleton and Frankford Avenue still remaining. I think that will be gone but not immediately.
Second, I saw a test train going in and out the new station, testing switches, clearences and signals. In addition, I see the workmen stating the process of last minute preparations for tommorow`s opening.
After seeing this terminal all of my life in its original form, it will take a lot of getting used to the new sight at the FTC. I will be there tommorrow to check out the terminal on its first rush hour.
Chuck Greene
Thanks.
Chuck Greene
December 3 - January 27, 2004 filing Signal Maintainer
January 7 - 27, 2004 filing Structure Maintainer, Group C
Track Equipment Maintainer
February 4 - March 23, 2004 filing Transit Electrical Helper
March 3 - 23, 2004 filing Collecting Agent
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I took mine with a 50# Block of Salt Lick. MOO!
He didn't even spell his own name right.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Are the R-110s the only cars to have battery box explosions? I read on another board that R-142s and even some older cars had similar problems. Is this right?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Better I do this than start a whole new thread [at this moment] on the 160's since it has been talked about quite a bit.
What, and no one else is??? We ALL are interested in riding it! When they come out, you will know about it, because we will all be talking about it.
Does anyone know what lines R-160's will be assigned to?
That's like saying "do you know what colors a 2006 new Model Chevy will come in?"
David
if the B replaced the M, send V over Manhattan bridge through Brighton line.
If the V replaced the M, keep the B as is
If the M would terminate in Midtown, maintain train lengths and send V
to Brighton Line and B to 2nd Ave/Culver Express though this would just complicate shop assignments for the MTA
There is no longer any place for a train to terminate in midtown on 6th Ave anymore. The KK as it ran in the early 70's could never run that way again. The KK officially died in Dec, 2001 with the opening of the connection to the Queens line. 57th could not be a terminal since the tunnel opened, and Queensbridge's terminal days ended when they connected it to Queens blvd in 2001.
The only way to use Chrystie (without radical service changes) would be to combine the M and V. Some more radical ideas would be to combine it with the C, but that would mean radical changes throughout the system.
Couldn't the M just terminate at 59 Columbus Circle like those rush hour A trains to Rockaway Park and layover at 135 st. There has to be a way if the MTA treasures the 6th Avenue trains so as to not decrease their capacities
Of course if we're getting really crazy I'd say:
C 168th to eastern div, V Forest Hills/6th ave/cranberry/fulton st... give fulton st. local riders full length trains...
David
The platforms are only long enough for 8 car trains. 600 feet is about the length of 10 cars.
(GREAT imagination, Salaam)
http://www.uncanny.net/~wetzel/pery.htm
http://www.river-road.net/oldcars/redcar/
and of course, the motherlode of information:
http://www.erha.org/
Like I said, pretty serious stuff ... and the "subway" in downtown LA was most impressive as well. But it's all gone now. They have LACMTA now, trying to bring back a pittance of what once was.
Appreciated the NYCTA even more after reading what LA went through by screwing with THEIR subway, just to fatten up Cal Worthington. :)
All I can say is wait 10 years and maybe we'll see what she was talking about, if anything.
That idea she meant the 63rd St lower level is interesting.
Don't have AIM? Download it free here at www.aim.com
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I am a hobbyist photographer, and am going on this trip to get some good pics and above all have a good time. If I can't get a shot, so be it... I hope others can be respectful, and live with not being able to get every single shot out there.
And if anyone tries getting physical or verbal over a damn window (Like has been said on this board) I promise they will watch the train leave the station after they are thrown off.....
It's just plain stupid.
(I know I am gonna get nasty responses for this.... Some people are just itching to start a fight over nothing)
There were many times when I've seen a RFW shared by 5 TO 7 people
on either the 2 or 4 lines (in 2000-2001)... all it takes is people
standing with their back to the cab dooh and some keeping their heads
perfectly still so a brah near that first pole can get his zoom jiggy
going and make it LOOK like he's at the RFW (when infact he's got a few
sweaty, moody, grumpy compadres to contend with over the holy view).
Having NEVER BEEN on a MOD trip, I don't see the big dilly over the RFW...
I would much rather video the interiors of the cars etc etc...
I don't see fit paying $35 to have the same view I can have from the
front of an r32/38 (when running the same line)..
It's certainly possible for a lot of people to share the window with some planning -- e.g., let the shorter and skinnier railfans stand in front. A very large railfan was blocking half the window on the last trip, and I had a most excellent view of his shirt.
Oh but you get SOOOOOOOOOOOOO much more than just the view or the ride! I'll have to email you about it.
I actually won't be in anyone's way on these trips :) ... I'll be on vacation from 8/23 - 9/2 and for the moment I probably won't be able to make the Steeplecab trips, either.
--Mark
I do know who you are referring to; it occurred on the last IRT trip, but I do not know his name.
--Mark
Well, that means it wasn't me.
You see, I use a monopod :)
--Mark
I ment 'our shot'..
--Mark
--Mark
There.
I just lifted a finger for them.
(I'll let you guess WHICH finger was lifted)
The simple fact is a photostop is just that. A very brief oppurtunity to get your shots at a photostop. You see, we don't want to "hold up the road" and delay trains behind us. So that's why you have numerous railfans vying for a shot at a photo line and everyone's rude or loud about those not taking pictures.
The real people who are "anal" are the ones who step off, admire the rivets and look into the cab window getting in everyones shot. So that explains the chorus of catcalls from the photoline.
The idea situation is when only photographers get off the train, get their shots and reboard. This always not the case.
As for hogging the railfan window on fantrips, I saw one guy who had the best solution, On a "D" type MOD trip, he had a remote video camera taped to the railfan window next to the storm door. He had the cable taped above the doorway and cab so as not to interfere with operations and stood by the seat behind the cab with his camera. A microphone with a windscreen taped all the sounds. All this while the foamers were drooling by the rauilfan window !
Bill "Newkirk"
"Folks, if you're not taking pictures at a photo stop, please stand clear of the train to allow the photographers to grab their shots so that the train can get on its way. There will be plenty of time at the mealstop or when the train breaks down for you to examine the paint job or the authenticity of the car number decals. We're announcing this, so that you won't be shocked when the photographers start cursing at you, when you get in their way."
Sadly, I don't DO fantrips ... probably for the same reason as you. It's real hard to enjoy a vintage car with foamers and other hangers-on when to ME, the thrill is just being ALONE with a car, sit in the cab and take it in, or better yet, RUN the sum'bitch like the old days. I do the fanning thing for the PEOPLE, they're fun in their own way, especially AWAY from the car in question (one of the many treats at Branford I enjoyed - taking a WALK with folks like Thurston, Unca Lou, Unca Jeff and Unca Sparky, sitting down to DINNER with Unca Dougie and the other guys and talking NON-foamy shop) ... but I also love my time ALONE with a subway car (such as 1689 where I was granted the opportunity to apply power and wake it up from its slumber and move it out onto the railroad from the yard) to revel in it. Slumbering AND awake with geese on board ...
Whatta treat though, getting to wake up 1689, and roll her out of the barn, through the yard and guiding her into the station. Ah, like WAA in the old days ... and a couple of runs with folks on board was a hoot as well. definitely not the same experience I'd have being stuck in a car watching stations go by like geese myself. Heh.
Seriously though, I've heard too many horror stories of, as Fox would promote it, "Foamers Gone Wild, only $29.95 if you order now." While Unca Mark and so many OTHER photogs get their yayas "exposing themselves" ... they're ALL missing a GREAT commercial outcome in failing to take the camera OFF the rivets and the station shots of the same angular perspective (instead of great "straight on shots") and completely ignoring the "Foamers Gone Wild" bit.
I'd PAY for a videotape of "Foamers Gone Wild" just so I can live vicariously without having to ENDURE a certain Dennis the Mennis. :)
I have seriously considered going on a fantrip and videotaping the exploits of the attendees, but you then get into a whole mess of privacy issues that are not worth an amateur's time. I'll let the NY Times documentary channel handle that part of the business :) My personal interest is the infrastructure and not the people. YMMV.
I videotaped much of the 4 June fantrips and one of the best things I did was walk through all the cars as they were moving. It was especially terrific to watch on the last IRT trip, because I walked through the entire 10-car train of SMEE cars. I had never done that when the Redbirds were in service, though I would have the camera on while riding in a single car as it was moving. Things like the walkthrough are great to do on a fantrip.
On the second R1/9 fantrip, I stood at the end of car 491 near car 100, and videotaped the train frm the side as it sped under Fulton Street. Watching the stations pass by gave an unusual strobe-light effect with the steel beams producing this effect. It gave an idea of how fast we were going.
--Mark
I was reprimanded on the 6/8 MOD trip by a photographer who had positioned his tripod against the platform wall as I made my way to the front of the train to get a front-end shot. How else was I supposed to get to the front of the train, by climbing out the window and into the 2 train on the other track? Or was I expected to forego my photo entirely? (He had a tripod and I didn't, so presumably he was more important than I was.)
heypaul, I've never heard that on any trip, though I can't say it was ever announced. I think that request should be stated on all fantrip list of photostops sheet as well as a a verbal announcement. I've heard many times at photo lines, "when you get your shots, step back so someone else can get theirs".
Bill "Newkirk"
Certainly, the sponsors of the event want to make it as pleasurable to ALL so that this "gravy train" can CONTINUE. Seems to me that if folks contacted them, they could make an announcement AT the event of what folks need and expect and work it all out. Or in the "suit-covered anus" aspect, attach another sheet with a MEMO on it saying "Photographers will be taking pictures of the equipment - please do not crowd around the cars at photo stops so that the trip can be completed without sending you home early" or some such.
Organizers want to have EVERYBODY happy, and if there's enough rivet-cuddlers and folks who have never seen blue smoke or a marker light are provided with an "ooo-ah" stop where photography is prohibited, then everybody goes away happy. It's all a matter of how it's handled and those with (ahem) "special needs" see about making the organizers aware of it - they're SURE to make accomodations if it doesn't screw up the tour or the railroad. :)
If Unca Selkirk does a NYCTA run, the deal would be "no flash phots UNDERGROUND" and "get your damned hands off my handle. It ain't LIKE that." :)
But then again, with me in the cab, you can rest assured that even on the shores of Connecticut, Unca Selkirk can make even a LONE Arnine hit that high note. Spatulas recommended, somebody's gotta scrape Unca Lou off the bulkhead. Heh.
I didn't get it anywhere near that pitch during either of my turns. OTOH Lou had me wrap it only once. THEN I felt the car accelerate!:)
But without putting it on the ground, it went as fast as it was gonna. Heh.
GP38 Chris, I didn't attend that trip, so this is the first I heard of this. I've seen all sorts of tension and catcalls at photo stops over the years, but not as bad as you described. On the whole, rail photographers want their shot and back on the train before the motorman blows the whistle.
As I stated before, the clock is ticking once the doors open and we can't tie up "the road". One fantrip where we didn't tie up the road was back when the Jamaica "el" shut down Jamaica-168th Sts. and some other stations. In the morning we had the D Types and after lunch in Coney Island, we had the BMT Standards doing two trips to Jamaica-168th St. The stations were already closed down for passengers and we pretty much had that part of the line to ourselves. There was no "road" to tie up. Although I didn't attend them, the Farewell to the Myrtle and 3rd Ave "el" trips featured the lines closed off to revenue passengers since they were shut down anyway.
Bill "Newkirk"
Picture it: Island Park on the Long Beach Branch station, and motorists quietly stop at a closing grade crossing as a train enters the station for what seems like one of many times the gates close. All of a sudden some strange train pulls in and hundreds of people swarm out of the train, and onto the road next to the station, all the while tripods opening up, and are set up in front of the unsuspecting motorists cars. It looked like an onslaught attacking Island park, and soon all the stores in the town there emptied out onto the street to see what was happening. After all these people started setting up in front of cars stopped at the grade crossing, the motorists soon realized this was not going to be "just another stop at the grade crossing". Soon the curses started from the cars, and curses back, and thank goodness the organizers had the good sense to tell everyone to get out of the road, and they held the gates open for the cars to get through. People just have to
realize that the world does not stand still for a photograph.
This was not as bad as what hapened at Beach 90th, but people really should think that setting tripods up in the middle of the street is not a good idea.
Watching people set up you just have to laugh at the extremes some people go through to get that "photo". Island Park sure was funny.
But you got to admit, when you see throngs of foamers with cameras shooting the train, you have to think out loud, "what the hell is going on here "?
Bill "Newkirk"
"The simple fact is a photostop is just that. A very brief oppurtunity to get your shots at a photostop. You see, we don't want to "hold up the road" and delay trains behind us. So that's why you have numerous railfans vying for a shot at a photo line and everyone's rude or loud about those not taking pictures."
So what are you saying that the people who never rode these trains cause they were too young cannot get out and examine the car and admire and study it? So that a few people can take a picture that later they will probably think wasn't a great shot and throw away the picture? It's a 10 car train (if we're lucky) We're gonna be going out there and studying the train inside and out, like for me this will be the few times I can actully see the trains in action. Also it's the weekend the next train is usually 5 minutes behind us.
"All this while the foamers were drooling by the railfan window!"
It's a railfan window! Of course you're supposed to drool over it, especially on a vintage trip and ESPECICALLY with the fact that in 10 years there will be NO railfan window trains left in NYC! Not have 1 or 2 camera people standing in the way, that in the end the people have to buy their DVD for $10 to get a railfan window view. People want to take turns but the Video Takers from what I have seen don't care whatsoever.
The real people who are "anal" are the ones who step off, admire the rivets and look into the cab window getting in everyones shot. So that explains the chorus of catcalls from the photoline.
Does "MOVE!" or "Get the F**K out of the way!" constitute catcalls? I'm sorry it doesn't the people looking in the cabs and studying the train are admiring it, and learning about it, remembering the past, or getting a glimpse into the past. Why are we subject to hearing people cursing because of a photo? There are many photospots during the line, so if these people have the nerve to b**ch because there are people trying to admire the train? The first person to curse because they want to take a photograph, I will make sure they are ejected from the trip.
On a sunny day, it's because the front of the train is in the sunlight. Shoot at the other end and you have a backlit shot. You may get away with this if it's cloudy.
Bill "Newkirk"
There's no reason to be scared of an ERA or MOD fantrip. Not all photogs are screaming maniacs. But there are those who do get vocal when some inconsiderate daydreamer just strolls in the picture. After all, they are called photo stops, that's plain enough.
Bill "Newkirk"
As these trips are on active routes, it would seem possible that the people walking into view are not trip participants, but ordinary subway riders curious about these odd cars stopping at their station.
ECCHHH !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I am usually very polite until the person refuses to move (like the lady in the yellow sweater at beach 90th). There's plenty of time for you to check out the train at the lunch stop. You know, the Photo Stops, are called Photo Stops for a reason. I've never herd them come over the PA and announce "Study the train stops."
That railfan with the 3 megapixel digitial camera has just as much right to take pictures on a fantrip as anyone else.
If you don't like that, you can charter your own train.
BTW, I'm surprised anyone here needs this reminder, but tripod photography on the subway is not even permitted. Watch it.
So sorry for the suggestion, jerk. I'll make sure not to give you any more suggestions, oh holy photographer.
You seem to be pointing at me like I'm one of the photographers with the tripod. I don't use a tripod on the trips, to much stuff to bring around.
I don't know or care what equipment you use. It's the attitude I find a bit disturbing.
I want everyone to have fun on the trips, but frankly taking pictures is always first and foremost on my list. I've been doing these trips long before MANY of you guys were born (my first fan trip was in 1957) People used to cooperate with the photographers, things have changed. Just don't point at me for things other people may have said.
--Mark
This project will provide for the design and acquisition of approximately 55 to 60 trackless trolleys to replace SEPTA’s existing trackless trolley fleet. This fleet is more than 24 years old and well beyond its useful life. The trackless trolley fleet operates out of SEPTA’s Frankford and Southern Garages serving Routes 29, 59, 66, 75 and 79 in South, North and Northeast Philadelphia.
Vehicles acquired through this project will incorporate current technology and proven components, along with passenger amenities, to ensure overall safety, security and passenger comfort. Each trackless trolley will have a public address system that will enable the operator to clearly communicate with passengers inside and outside the vehicle. For the hearing and visually impaired, an audio/visual annunciating system will be installed, which will automatically announce upcoming stops and informational messages. All vehicles will fully comply with Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) requirements. This project will also provide for spare components, tools and equipment required to service the new trackless trolleys.
Prior funding for this project will support the development of vehicle specifications. A Fiscal Year 2004 Congressional earmark has been requested to support of the acquisition of vehicles.
If this happens, it will be fairly unique in North America. Most cities that still have TT routes have some special circumstance which argues for the surviving routes--Steep hills in SF; cheap hydropower in Vancouver; both in Seattle; the Harvard Square tunnel in Boston; a special local commitment in Dayton.
Good grief.
-Robert King
---Choo Choo :)
Chuck Greene
brah (br-ahh) Hulk Hogan in his slackjaw TV interviews pronounces the word "brother"
as "bruddah" which is further overhauled and Bombardier'd to "brah".
G/O's and Service Advisories of IMPROPER use:
I) brah (br-ahh) DOES NOT imply, nor render me to be of Irish descent
(as Kool D. assumed prior to meeting me at 'Ultimate Ride').
II) brah (br-ahh) *ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT* refer to a certain
FEMININE article of clothing (of similar spelling sans H).
Disclaimers and Clearances
-All uses of "brah" in this media and forum are fully intended
to serve as an (optimistic) substitute for the word "BROTHER".
-Inappropriate use or misuse is subject to summons and having offender
detrained at Grand Central on 7.
-This thread mentions a subway-related encounter set forth in point I above,
thereby this thread successfully meets requirem to bear relation to transit discussion.
Thanks 4 the interest, brahs!
SCHMUCK
subfan
Peace,
ANDEE
I count 4:
Bx55
subwaygrrl
BingBong (of SelkirkTMO)
subway-buff (the 'IT')
Bx55
subwaygrrl
BingBong (of SelkirkTMO)
subway-buff (the 'IT')
You forgot one :)
Oh, and there's also a new one (I hope) called "Amanda."
I've already made use of that term, as part of the expression "Ignorant Schmucks" (meaning stock market investors). As long as it's used in a completely different context, I suppose it's okay.
Wanna wager on that, brah?
Mark W. was THE FIRST SubTALKer I EVER MET.
(Mark S. Feinman, anon_e_mouse, Bill Newkirk, and Bx.55 all tied for 2nd)
Easy on that wager, brah Choo Choo! :)
Wrong on both buddy boy.
Met Carlos 4 years ago I believe and many times since and no, I don't work weekends... Does the subway even run on weekends??
And yeah, the subways run on weekends, sometimes even fast! We were on two trains today that each hit 49mph! What a day. (I'm sure they hit those speeds during the week, I'm just never at the right place at the right time and at a cab with a visible speedometer.)
If it didn't how would anything be able to get in the way of the important stuff...namely:
THE FAN TRIPS!!!
So better be on the CLEAR side than run homeball and be mizundastood.
You mean that some women actually posted here?!? Wow, could've fooled me.
Must've been other SubTalkers bad BRAHth that chased 'em away.
Can't wait for that Canal Street trolley line to open in New Orleans...
Mark
How quickly you forget, Mark!!! In New Orleans they are STREETCARS.
: )
Mark
I thought the alternate form of "bro" is "Manssiere."
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This article will hopefully better inform you all on exactly what is going on in Washington Re: Amtrak.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#Amtrak
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Instead of saying ths is dumb out of hand, read and see how dumb it really is.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#Mica
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Not bad news...not a new line either.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#Fresno
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UP is fairly cool, not like CSX.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#UPdonates
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So is every state...shame that all the money for it was diverted to the oil industry and and airlines.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#Oklahoma
They are proposing Oklahoma City-Tulsa on that report.
Would be smarter to revamp (and/or include) Oklahoma City-Dallas and turn the Heartland Flyer into a real flyer instead of today’s (popular nonetheless) 55-mph creeper.
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Lima is a cool place. Home of the pld PRR NS tower, Lima locomotive works which is now the place where they make M1A2 tanks.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#Ohio
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OUCH, a 0.0% on time rating for the Sunset. Thank god you can't have a negitive on time rating. The 97% Hiawatha performance at least demonstrates that it might not be Amtrak's fault all the time.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#Hiawatha
The line IS dispatched by metrolink dispatchers, no longer handled by the BNSF except for the 25 miles from Fullerton into LA. BNSF seems to be quite cooperative with Amtrak and Metrolink to get the trains through on time.
Thank God it isn't the UP doing the dispatching...
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Gee, how many years has this been circulating around? A total waste if you ask me. There is more than enough room at Hoboken for West Side service.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#New
There may be “plenty of room” at Hoboken, but there is yet more room at GCT. People still want to go to Manhattan, not Hoboken, and if a rail link is opened up in Rockland and Orange Counties for such, if you think that people will not take advantage, then let me remind you of the masses of people who switched from Hoboken to NY Penn when NJ Transit’s Midtown Direct service first started from the former DL&W electric lines.
Not to mention that Metro-North would then have the means to do away with NJ Transit as a contract operator and also have a selling point with which to increase numbers of passengers from lines like the PJ line, Spring Valley, etc. (assuming a restoration of the Piermont Branch coinciding with this or building a parallel route to the Piermont Branch to placate NIMBYs), or even on the West Shore line if a connector is built (towns like Haverstraw, Orangeburg, New City, etc). Would be interesting to see P32AC-DMs hauling Shoreliner IIs through towns like Harriman and Tuxedo, to be sure. (Besides, this would be the fulfilment of the dream of one of the original Erie RR presidents, to cross the Hudson at Piermont for better access to NYC, which was later supplanted by the acquisition of the Paterson & Ramapo and the Paterson & Hudson River…)
What are the history of these?
The Paterson & Hudson River was the earlier of the two, establishing a route between Jersey City and Paterson as early as 1847. The Paterson & Ramapo was an affiliate of the P&HR, having itself opened in 1848. The Erie bought both roads in 1852 and converted them to 6-foot gauge. That is about all I know; further information on the Web is rather sparse :-(
Maybe in a year or two, but not right now, with only one tunnel in service, which runs at capacity during the rush hours.
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Gee, how many years has this been circulating around? A total waste if you ask me. There is more than enough room at Hoboken for West Side service.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#Chicago
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Yup, once again Sound Transit is that system you love to hate.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#Sound
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Hey this is great!!! Oh, wait, its only light rail.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#Houston
To see lots of debate and discussions about the light rail in Houston, check out the Houston Architecture discussion board at
http://www.houstonarchitecture.info/haif/index.php
There several threads there that have pictures.
Another place to find Houston rail pictures is :
http://www.lightrail.com/photos/houston/houston.htm
I keep saying I am going to take some pictures, but my wife is not a much of a railfan, and I have a 2-year old son, so I don't have a lot of spare time. She does let me drive along the rail route, and when the weather is nicer we walk along parts of the route.
It will have its own dedicated lanes, but there are something like 70 street crossings.
The new 64 mile systems being planned looks nice, but in order to fund it money will have to be taken away from road construction, and that is not too likely in Houston. I am hoping for a compromise to get part of the system built.
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Good for PA getting more trucks off the roads.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#State
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I think I know an engineer who is going to get his ass nailed to the wall.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#NSderails
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I think I know an engineer who is going to get his ass nailed to the wall.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07282003.shtml#Thieves
When you overspeed the cab signal alertor bell goes off and if you do not make an X lb brake application w/in some period of time the train goes into emergency. You only need to bring the train back down to 80. Less skilled engineers, or speed deamons will tend to tend to trip the overspeed often (on the NH Line 5:07 Super Express my engineer kept hitting the 90mph overspeed, even in the 75/85 mph segments of the railroad, he was clearly a speed deamon). Engineers with good speed control, like the one on my NJT train last week, can get the train spot on 80 and not have to put up with the annoying bell.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Measured miles for speedometer checking are listed in the employee timetables.
I guess some engineers would rather hotdog than have quiet.
I recall electric trains around 10 years ago that hit close to 90.
As it is, looking out the front of an M1 on the Main Line between Queens and Hicksville can be a little nerve-wracking, seeing crossing after crossing with cars beating it across just before the gates are down, your train at full speed, the engineer blasting, and knowing if something went wrong you could never stop in time.
On a line like Babylon (fully grade separated) I don't know how important either restriction would be.
Why not re-calibrate the gates so they come down when the train is a greater distance away?
The earth rotates about it's axis, and if we assume that the earth's radius at the equator is 6378km (3986.25 miles), then we get 40,078km (25,046 miles) for the equatorial circumference of the earth, which we obviously enough cover in roughly 24 hours. Thus we can arrive at about 1670km/hr, or 1037mph imparted by the earth's spin on any body standing on the equator.
However I'm fairly certain that you noticed that NYC, MN, LIRR and the subway are not located anywhere near the equator, thus we have to find the distance between the NYC and the axis of rotation. Since NYC lies at about 40° longitude, we know that it it 40 degrees above the equator. Using the parallel lines theorm, we can tell that 40 degrees also separates NYC's plane from the intersection of the equatorial plane and the axis of rotation. This forms a very nice right triangle with the radius of the earth (above) as the hypotenus, and the unknown X distance to the axis of rotation as the cosine of the longitude, 40 degrees in this case. So we do Cos(40)*6378km and get 4885.831km, or 3053.69 miles, multiply this by 2Ð, and you get 30,698.58 km, or 19186 miles around the world at 40°. This means that we only turn at 1279.107km/h or just about 800mph, considerably slower than the equator's 1,000mph. This holds true everywhere and anywhere two objects are aligned north or south of each other, the southern one will always be faster, even if it is only by a few miles an hour.
Really the fastest you could go on earth would be to fly in the blackbird east above the equator, at midnight on or around Jan 4 2004, when the earth is at perihelion (91,405,340 miles from the sun), and thus, thanks to Kepler's laws, moving fastest in it's orbit about the sun (a whole 'nother matter for another time).
Oh yeah, the simple answer to your question, GCT is the most southern point on MN, so it's the fastest, beating out 125th St by probably less than 10mph. I'm guessing that for LIRR it'd be the Long Beach Terminal, but I'm not sure where exactly that is in Long Beach, so it could be Far Rockaway. On the NYCTA, I'm guessing that Rockaway Park on the A train out in the rockways would be the most southern, and thus fastest, but that's just a guess, what is the southernmost point on the NYCTA?
The best part of looking at it like this, it means that the NJT AC line is the fastest branch NJT runs! :-)
Oh yeah, and if you meant speed as compared to some completely arbitrary fixed point alongside the railroad ROW, then you should be more specific in your post, instead of merely leaving a broad message in the subject for smartaleks like me to exploit.
But thanks anyway!
What about south of the equator? Won't the northern most be the faster?
That would leave you off around 34 Street between 6 and 8 Avenues. That might be the cheapest way into Manhattan.
Seriously:
NJ Transit Line 62 bus to Newark-Penn Station, then PATH to NYC.
The Airlink bus was done away with when the Monorail started running, at double the cost of the Airlink bus (when you transfer from NJ Transit or Amtrak).
The 302 Airlink bus was not done away with when the “monorail started running,” which was close to a decade ago. The 302 was canceled when the EWR station opened on the Northeast Corridor and the monorail was extended to connect with trains that stopped there.
Over there, ask where bus #62 to Newark Penn Station stops. Make sure you're getting on a #62 that goes to Penn, and not from Penn. Otherwise you'll end up in Perth Amboy.
$1.10, exact change only. At Newark Penn station, take the PATH train to midtown (may or may not need a transfer at Grove St, depending upon the time of day). $1.50.
Total: $2.60
We lost a lot of good men today in order to bring you these photos. Well, actually, all that happened was that an NJ Transit truck down at track level at Secaucus honked at me when I started taking photos of the station from the highway bridge. Screw him, I kept on taking photos.
It was only three years ago when the tracks and ties just south of Harmon Cove got torn up and replaced with new welded rail, with a slightly different alignment that made room for supports for a new bridge for the two additial tracks on the NEC. All that work, now a waste.
Jimmy
Jimmy
http://www.trekshare.com/viewimage.cfm?jimageid=31452&page=28
and
http://www.trekshare.com/viewimage.cfm?jimageid=31449&page=28
Here's a link to the first article...
Deccan Herald report
I'm copying out one paragraph:
The Capital Construction Company will also oversee and coordinate the MTA's extensive security capital construction projects and will spearhead two significant components of Lower Manhattan's redevelopment, the Fulton Transit Centre and the new South Ferry subway station complex.
Are there a special "security capital construction projects" or is "security" some glitch in translation?
Here's another article. It's bascially the same. What I found interesting was reading some of the comments on the message board at the bottom of the article.
Rediff.com article
Finally, I ran Mr. Nagaraja's name through Google Groups, just to see if anyone else is talking about this. I came up with something weird, which I assume is not related to the MTA.
Vampirism?
Or perhaps the Capital Construction Company is planning to outsource it s work to Indian firms. :-)
But not to fear, the regime's working on that too. No more overtime, pay cuts, 70 hour weeks. Why once we're done with our American third world conversion, we'll be competitive again. And to think. In the 1960's we were trying to figure out what we'd DO with all that "leisure time" technology was going to give us ...
What would be different in the City today?
What would 3rd Avenue look like today had the El survived? What buildings would have not been built? What would the economic impact have been on the City?
How would East Midtown have developed?
Would there still be plans for an SAS?
Would ridership be substantial?
How would vehicular traffic patterns be different?
Would the Lex be bearable?
What class of subway cars would be used on it?
Would this be a better city today with the El running these past 48 years?
Just wondering what it would be like to Metrocard my way onto the Fulton Street el platform, near my office...not having to endure a stifling subway platform in August....
As sentimental as I was about my OWN favorite line, it took FOREVER to get there, and it only went from 149 to Gunhill. The 2 train will get you between them (though not to Webster or 3rd) in half the time. When they killed the Manhattan portion, they ALSO killed the BRONX portion, as well as any hoods ALONG the line. Byebuy ... though I loved it because of the LoV's and its convenience, I almost NEVER rode it ***to*** work. I'd ride HOME on it, but never downtown, except for fun or to get to the White Castle on Fordham. Too many stops, and the transfer at 149 to the 2/5 was PAINFUL. I just cut to the chase and took the D from 205 ... I lived at 204th and Webster, right UNDER the 204 stop.
What SHOULD have been done was what was *PROMISED* ... a THIRD AVENUE (Bronx) SUBWAY ... then again, they ALSO promised and extension of the A train from 211/Isham up Riverdale Avenue to 264th. Uh-huh. Whether the southern end connected IRT, or connected up with an SAS was of no importance. That's a section of Bronx (south of "Norwood") that was UNSERVED by train. A similar stretch exists between the 6 and the 5 train, but nobody's thought of that.
But without somewhere to go from 149 south, the Bronx Third Avenue El was a GELDING. It might as well have died once they killed off the LoV's and put those chitty R12's up there. It was already pathetic. Once the LoV's were yanked, there wasn't even FOAMER interest in riding it as though it were the Myrtle. :(
What would you think if they connected it directly into the 2/5 line at 149th Street? Although it would probably be a situation where locals turned and expresses go through, because the line couldn't handle combined 2/5/8 service.
But still, I just can't picture the 3rd Avenue El today with R-142's running around on it...YUCK.
Now, the Myrtle El with R-143's, I could maybe get into that...
And as to 143's on the Myrt, slap yourself ... the Q cars MADE that line, though it would have been even nicer if the gate cars had stayed. Boy, talk about impractical foamer dreams. :)
Too late now of course. :)
also why was the Fordham Road station also called 190th Street, was there a 190th Street by 3rd Avenue once?
the 210th Street station doesn't have any street under it, because of the Bronx River Parkway getting rid of it
190th was actually where the stairs landed since the split to the Bronx Park spur was AT Fordham Road - once they cut off the spur, they put "Fordham Road" up on the platform. But the station was actually a block south of Fordham.
And 200th Street WAS 200th Street - the Bedford Park Boulevard thing came a bit later. I suppose the old "I was here FIRST" applies. :)
So the office towers wouldn't have gone toward 3rd Av; they might have headed further uptown. The new residential towers might have hugged the park a little more closely. Whether there would have been a change due to less crowding on the Lex (which everyone tolerates) or less use of the MNRR close-in-stops (how could there be less?), I'm not so sure. Probably just bigger apartments in Spanish Harlem, as in West Harlem now, but, ultimately, no socioeconomic difference. One way or another, the money would all have fled by the seventies for the suburbs.
Weekend service for trains on the Main, Bergen, Pascack Valley, and Port Jervis lines will begin at the regional hub in the fall.
Something doesn't add up. :-)
They brought in a photographer for nothing? (At least they didn't include Joe Testagrose's pre-GOH R-32 at DeKalb.)
Has anyone seen the print edition?
URL at http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/transportation/nyc-mta0802,0,5301790.story?coll=nyc-manheadlines-trans
My safety is decreased, not increased, by a station exit that is open with a token booth during rush hours and is locked tight at night. Whatever degree of safety S/A's provide, they don't provide any of it to passengers who have to walk along a platform past a closed exit, nor do they provide any of it to passengers who then have to walk an extra block or two on the street to get home.
And there was a brutal rape in my neighborhood of someone followed home from the subway in the middle of the night (the rape took place on the street). And the neighborhood's homeless live near the station entrances where the booth will be closed. And my children walk through the station, to avoid a busy street, on their way to and from school. And they have to get past a bunch of rowdy teens from Bishop Ford in the afternoon.
Guess what, however. The booth to be closed, on the north side of the station, was already closed in the afternoons. It was only open in the AM rush, to allow purchases of tokens when most people enter (rather than leave) the station. There is no security issue in the morning --the station is too full of people on their way to work. In any event, you can see almost none of the station from that booth. At least the main booth has a view up and down the outside fare control hallway.
So the security issue is bogus -- the booth is only open when it is not needed. The best way to increase passenger security is to either get the remaining station agent out of the booth and moving around the station (TWU objection -- the station agent would then be less secure), or to install security cameras with motion detectors, montiored either from the booth or from somewhere else.
Of course, the TWU objection is pure featherbedding in the guise of "safety." If station agents are released from the booths to move around the station, they won't need the protection of the booths because they won't have access to money.
This argument has long since swept through the LIRR on the closing of ticket offices. Many communities complained about the lack of human presence at stations, some of which can be relatively isolated.
However, in that case too, cameras would probably be even better if the issue is security, though I don't think they have any.
I wouldn't want an unattended station, especially in the middle of the night (when NYCT would be most tempted to do it). I'd rather that stations be closed, and buses be provided. But a second booth just isn't worth the expense in most cases.
The TWu and the straphangers campaign really did a number on the public in the area of misinformation.
-Most of the booths scheduled to close were already closed most of the day with no crime problems. Most of these entrances were closed off at night as well. The only problems were there was not enough heets when the booth was closed because the turnstlyes were in the way
-TWU and straphnagers made it sound like this concept of unmanned exits and entrances was new to NYCT. They forget about all the exit only areas that were converted to entrances and exits
"I wouldn't want an unattended station, especially in the middle of the night "
In the middle of the night there should be some sort of human presence in stations. Unfortunitly most station with token booths overnight, the S/A in the booth provides little deterrant to any would be criminal. They are often up the steps a football feild away in a sound proof booth. Often sleeping.
On the flip side many stations especially on the broadway and lex local should have no S/A duty during the day. There are plenty of passengers, police patrols, maintance crews, train crews, newstands to provide human pressence and no realy need for a fare sales with MVM's and third party retailes all around selling metrocards.
Increase real security when it is needed at night. Add police patrols and Montitored CCTV
It works very well on PATH. PATHS vending machines are horrible
Don't feel bad, they do a good job at misinforming their members.
> Unfortunitly most station with token booths overnight, the S/A in the booth provides little deterrant to any would be criminal.
Of course. Would someone in a booth deter you? Besides they have a limited range of vision, so even if they are there, a criminal just has to perform their crime outside that range.
Subway stations need major security upgrades. S/A have never been the answer.
Imagine if the MTA wanted to lay people off in order to close booths. The fur would really fly
To touch upon another topic of discussion, facilitating cell phone reception in stations and on trains would be an excellent way of enhancing passenger safety.
The majority of those who are annoying are using nextels with the outboard speaker. The use of such speaker is already illegalin the subeays as an amplification devise
Whether this is reason to restrict cell phone usage on the subway (or while driving, or while walking) is left as an exercise to the reader, but cell phone conversations and face-to-face conversations are not alike.
This doesn't apply to everyone. I try to keep the volume of my voice as low as possible and I still look while walking. It's clearly true of some people.
There are people who are obnoxious while speaking in person.
As for cell phone use while driving, any person without a hands free kit will have only one hand on the steering wheel for prolonged periods of time. I've driven with one hand on the wheel, it isn't as easy.
Any manipulation of the radio or other device would only be done for a brief period and whenever convenient to the driver.
Ban manual transmissions!
No way. Driving is boring enough as it is.
No way. Driving is great. You just don't drive in the right places.
But I find driving on local streets intersting too. Whatever floats your boat.
Because you sometimes need to in order to maintain the desired speed. Case in point: I make a left turn into the access drive for a parking deck, and I need to downshift because I'm slowing from 25 mph to 15 mph, but then need to maintain the 15 mph while going up the first ramp. After stopping at the top of that ramp, I am making a sweeping U-turn and proceeding farther up into the parking deck; I need to shift from first into second while doing so.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My mother has been saying that ever since Dad taught her to drive fifty years ago. Of course, she's in favor of banning seat belts too, because "if you don't have a seat belt on then you'll go slower in the corners because otherwise you'll slide out from under the wheel". But she wears one now simply because she doesn't want a ticket.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No way! Besides, with my "three on the tree", I can shift and steer at the same time using only one hand :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You've been running 629 too much; you're accustomed to one-handed operation ;^)
The issue isn't one-handed. You can drive one-handed and instinctively put your other hand on the wheel when needed. It's inattention. I've seen people do amazingly dangerous things while talking on cell phones.
And even when they know they have a problem, they just won't put that phone down. You should have seen a guy trying to crank the wheel one-handed for a hard-left turn while talking.
If I need to make a call, I pull over, even on a limited access highway where it presumably be safer to talk and drive.
I've done that, it's not hard. The one-handing combined with the inattention is the problem.
I've used a handheld cell phone while driving. There have been a few times where I put down the phone while turning because whatever and whoever is with me in person takes precendence over someone miles away using a phone.
Before someone from the holier-than-thou crowd on Subtalk comes over and chastises me for breaking the law: I've never broken this law. It wasn't always illegal to talk on the phone while driving and it isn't illegal everywhere.
I'm plain sick of having to drive with morons around me driving and talking on their phones. I see those lips flapping I want to get as far from them as possible. Because inevitably, they're driving slower or making stupidly dangerous driving decisions while yapping away like chipmonks.
I wish the state would give out rewards for snitching on phone-talkin' drivers. I'd get a friend to come along as I cruise the byways to take photographs (including license plates) of the yammering fools. Probably make some decent change out of it.
I don't even bother forwarding "your paypal/ebay account has problems, please click on this NON-ebay link to my scam site and put in your pin number" scams anymore - ebay and paypal make it IMPOSSIBLE to contact security to let them know of these scams before thousands are scammed by them. They're just not interested.
But with the economy on the tinfoil standard, headed for the ball of string, that'd make a nifty income-producing career if they did it. :)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
See, this is what confounds me. I just don't think that's a good enough reason to divert your attention from the task at hand, driving. It's just a completely different action than tuning a radio. Stuff like that can be handled before you leave the house. Or with a call at work, if possible. If not, than, hell, guess you just have to make another trip out.
I'm convinced a lot of guys are secretly thinking, "Damn, now ain't I cool, wit' dis cell phone like a big shot!" I wish cell phones would go the way of CB radios. What is this "always on" phenomena gonna do to our personal levels of sanity? I'm just out of touch I guess but I will ALWAYS want there to be times when I can't be IMMEDIATELY reached. Have we grown so emotionally insecure that we must have our connections nonstop?
There's validity in parents wanting to stay in touch with the kids, and business reasons. But dang, I'd bet most calls are of the "Did you see that cute [chick/dude] on the train today?" variety. Okay, so I'm a grump. But at least, me being a grump won't cause you to crash your car.
And yes, there are times when I would prefer to not be immediately reachable. Those that I can control (such as when I'm in shul) I do; unfortunately, being on-call essentially 24x7 is part of my job.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My father doesn't drive and doesn't have much of a sense of driving conditions. When he's in the car, he'll gladly ask me a complicated question while I'm trying to merge into heavy traffic at night in the snow. It's infuriating, but it's exactly what cell phone users put up with every time they call while driving.
I was once nearly hit in a parking lot by an SUV backing out of a space. Apparently the driver, who couldn't wait to finish her call before backing out, also couldn't be bothered to watch where she was going.
We already have one on the books... it's called "careless and reckless". Just having noisy, unrestrained children in the car can be a major distraction, even if the driver doesn't turn around and yell at them. Our solution to disruptive children in the car (when our children were growing up) was the "rule of silence" - when that rule was put in effect, ANY noise resulted in an immediate halt to the car and punishment meted out. Only rarely did we ever have to invoke it, and even more rarely did we have to stop. It seems that too many parents nowadays can't be bothered with assuming the full responsibilities of parenthood, hence the increasing prevalence of little brats. But I digress.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Naw, you got me wrong here. I wasn't responding to the "breaking the law" aspect of your post. It was the talking on phones while driving bit that stuck in my craw. Whether there's a law against it or not, it's not the way to drive a ton and a half box-on-wheels within a matrix suffused with similar objects in random motion. It's like playing pinball with only one flipper working.
I once observed a lady exiting out of Sunrise Mall onto Carmens Road who was chatting on her phone. Not only did she pass the red light signal, she "made contact" with another car and proceeded to slowly PUSH the other car laterally across the street. I was watching her eyes as whe went through the light (I just happened to be walking along Carmens Road when this happened) and she was completely oblivious to her surroundings but surely attentive to her phone concentration. When her car hit the other one it took her about three seconds to re-register awareness of the world around her. This event solidified my grasp of the matter.
A few days later, I sent a long email with my opinion.
About a year(!) later, somebody at Straphangers responded to my email, basically stating that my opinion was incorrect.
Why was I asked for my opinion if there was determined to be one correct opinion from the outset?
As for the V, I have no idea.
The crowding statistic covers the most crowded 15 minutes. The G operates only every 10 minutes, so the statistic is meaningless.
As for the V, I have no idea.
They stated that the TA did not publish the statistic for crowding.
Publishing that would go directly against one of SC adovocacies to get 8 car G service full time
Dear rider:
Last week we sent you the following message asking for comments if your token booth was closing or hours were being reduced:
Transit officials plan to close or reduce hours at 122
token/MetroCard booths in the subways. If the MTA gets its way, many
riders will have to choose been their safety and convenience, either
taking longer walks or entering at unstaffed locations. To learn more
and to speak out, go to http://www.straphangers.com/boothclosing/intro.html
Due to some technical difficulties, we were unable to receive your responses.
If your token booth is affected, we still want to hear from you! Please e-mail us at straphangers@nypirg.org.
Thank you, we hope to hear from you and we apologize for any inconvenience.
==============================
NYPIRG Straphangers Campaign
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My response, dated August 2, 2001:
I'd like to express my support for the TA's plans.
By replacing part-time token booths (which are invariably closed at
night) with full-time unattended entrances, both safety and convenience
will be improved. No longer will it be necessary to walk an extra block
or two along the street or platform just to reach an open station
entrance or exit. (As well, the money the TA saves can be used either
to push off the next fare increase or to just slightly improve train
service somewhere in the city.)
Unfortunately, my home station is not on the list of affected stations.
Middays and nights I will still have to walk the extra block to the only
full-time station entrance, at the far end of the platforms.
The response from Straphangers, dated August 8, 2002 (yes, over a year later):
Dear David,
thank you for contacting the straphangers campaign. We appreciate your response to our inquiry about token booth closures. You mentioned that a full-timed unstaffed entrance would be a boost to both safety and convenience. While I can understand how a 24 hour entrance is more convenient, a permanently unstaffed entrance is anything but safe. In many stations with a token booth marked for closure, there are long corridors that would become unmonitored with the removal of the attendant from the booth. Should you have an emergency, or the need to ask a question, the next token booth is blocks away down this corridor that is now without supervision. Crime in the subway will go up, not down, with the closure of token booths. In order to ensure that people don't jump the turnstiles without an attendant present to stop them, the MTA is putting in HEETs (floor to ceiling revolving metrocard entries). However, each space in the HEET is large enough to accomodate two medium sized peop!
le. Fare-beating will increase with the removal of clerks.
The absence of a clerk is also a problem if you have large packages, suitcases, a bicycle, a stroller or anything else that's too bulky to fit through the HEET. An attendant can easily open the service door for you. Without an attendant, you'll have to walk blocks to the next token booth with all of your things. In some cases, there are stations in which the token booth scheduled to close is the ONLY one on the downtown platform, for example, and in order to get through a person would have to cross over to the opposite platform, enter there, take the train in the wrong direction to a station where he/she can cross back around to go the other way.
The main problem you mention is that some stations already close at night or on weekends, and so the entire entrance isn't available. We are also trying to prevent these reductions. I have found, having visited all the sites set for a token booth closure or reduction in hours, that very few of them close the entire entrance -- instead the entrance remains open without the attendant present. For many of us, this is not such a blow. But if you have strollers, crutches, packages, a bicycle, suitcases, instruments, a disability, or a question, it becomes a problem.
At one of the sites, Myrtle-Willoughby on the G train, I had to help an elderly man get through the HEET. He had a cane and was wheeling a suitcase. He went through first, and then I pushed the suitcase through to him on the other side. He had been trying to get through for a while before I came. A token booth attendant would have made this problem moot.
The other issue is that by closing token booths, the MTA is eliminating jobs.
~Shantha, Straphangers Campaign
Maybe they don't agree with you. But they sent you a thoughtful email, showing that they read your communication in detail. They also made some reasonable points that you didn't address.
Maybe the best choice borrows from both you andthe Strappies.
Safety is a major concern at night. Part-time booths are invariably closed at night. So much for the idea that part-time booths promote security.
When the booth closes, in many cases the entire exit closes. The deserted platform past the closed exit is not under the surveillance of an S/A (whatever that's worth), nor is the extra block or two on the street that I need to walk to get home since the part-time exit is closed.
If the booth is removed and HEETs are installed, then anyone is satisfied: most of us can take the nearest exit and shorten our walks, and those who, for whatever reason, prefer to walk an extra block on an empty platform to the attended exit are still welcome to do so. It's a no-lose proposition. And it saves money, too.
And it took them a year to come up with it.
What points did they make that I didn't address?
Perhaps, but the point they are making is that the majority of customers will be riding when the booths are still open. For them, an open booth is appreciated.
Perhaps you are the one who is closed-minded and rehashes arguments on this issue regardless of their merits.
It's a classic FUD (fear - uncertainty - doubt) campaign.
Why don't I ever see Straphangers presenting the two options on an equal footing? Option 1: The status quo. Booths are only open a few hours per day; at other times, in many cases, there's no access at all. Option 2: Full-time unattended access. Ask the users of each station what they'd prefer for their particular part-time booths.
But that would yield an honest answer, which isn't what Straphangers is seeking.
Straphangers campaign is a publicity outfit for whoever pays them the most
Period!!!!
They never issue un-biased surveys or reports
They frequently use loaded questions in thier surveys which results in a positive answer they want
Most educated riders agree that the MTA should move to close more booths.
Why don't I ever see Straphangers presenting the two options on an equal footing? Option 1: The status quo. Booths are only open a few hours per day; at other times, in many cases, there's no access at all.
Option 2: Full-time unattended access. Ask the users of each station what they'd prefer for their particular part-time booths."
And lower fare and safet station
You're missing the point. It's repeating an argument without addressing (ie ignoring) a reasonably stated counter-argument.
This doesn't mean I agree with the Strappies on this one - I was only pointing out that it was obvious the Strappies had read David's email and answered his points thoughtfully. They may not be promoting the answers David wants (or that I want). But they treated him with a modicum of respect. When offered, return same.
What counterargument am I ignoring?
I wish the media would stop acting as if the Straphangers are a legitimate rider advocacy group.
I have been advocating for months for subtalkers(under a name that does not draw our fair and generous webhost int othe issue) to put out a counter arguament to the media.
It's worth, oh, let's see, how does nothing sound?
Looks like their mind is made up.
Err, have they ever tried to jump an HEET? I'd like to see them try.
:0)
OTOH, a few lost fares cost less than an S/A.
Besides, S/A's don't stop farebeating anyway. S/A's don't issue tickets for farebeating; cops do, and they issue tickets at HEETs and standard turnstiles alike.
Washington Metrorail probably loses a fare every once in a while because two slender and quick people scamper through the faregate close enough to each other so it doesn't have time to close between them.
AKA our message or no message
What ends up happenign now is that people want to voice thier opinion, they recieve a message for sc to make your voice heard. the only voice that get heard is SC propoganda
There's another possible explanation. You don't see all the responses they got. If a majority of those responses are consistent with current message, then what they have done is formulated a petition based on that. That's not wrong; it's the conclusion of a process. How well the process was conducted is another question; neither of us is privy to enough information to judge that.
But your assumption that it was just propaganda shows just as much bias and prejudice (meaning political, not racial or ethnic) on your part as you accuse them of.
I have been studing thier actions closly for over a year. I have spoken to Gene Rousenoff(mind my spelling) personally. Their message board is full of ringers who stear the conversation in a particular direction and qucikly shoot down any opinion not of thier own. Plus as I mentioned earlier, they changed the format of thier online petitions from suggesting a sample text to mandating the company line.
I was a supporter of SC before I began paying attention to exactly what they are doing. What they are doing is spreading propoganda for the TWU Plane and simple
#3 West End Jeff
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
If I'm driving from the north via I-93, where's the best place to park and ride on the Orange Line - Oak Grove, Malden, or Wellington. I would be arriving around 10-11 AM, so availability is the key question. Thank you to all who answer.
They'll all be full by then.
Call me and we can chat about options.
Sean@Temple
What purpose would restoring the reading terminal serve
Bringing back Diesel rail service. Unless you think that $2 billion ought to be spent on a Schuylkill Valley Metro that is not coming.
The Center City Tunnel provides better distribution of Passengers then two seperate terminals from two rail systems
But you cannot run Diesel trains through it, can you. I am not proposing a reversal of the Center City Tunnel project, but having a SEPTA-only Diesel rail terminal plus available redundancy available in Philadelphia in case the Center City Tunnel becomes unavailable for any reason.
And having lived in North Philly for two years i can tell you that no one would go to any convention located there
People go to the NJPAC in Newark NJ and they still go to Yankee Stadium in the Bronx. Adequate transportation plus security will insure that people go to a Convention Center located in North Philly.
But as far as having a diesel terminal, isn't there capacity at 30th street to possibly handle some septa diesels in the future and there is always the option (abiet more expensive) of hybrid sets ala NY's Metro North. But if a diesel terminal on the reading side would be essential then another option could be some sort of transfer station (i know not the best option by far) at a place with room for extra stub tracks for layups, like Temple (i am not being biased there is just a good bit of land at track level that looks like it used to be some sort of sidings for local industry) or someplace further north.
Regarding putting anything in north philly, it really depends on where.
Sean@Temple
I thought the one good thing about the SEPTA regional rail system is that it is 100% electric
One bad thing about that is that when the Center City Tunnel opened, the City of Philly closed Reading Terminal and canceled the SEPTA diesel services, to Pottsville/Reading and Quakertown/Bethlehem. That was not such a good thing.
Do I think that 100 percent electric is better? I sure do, but don’t kill service that you suddenly want to resurrect later on—instead, electrify the previously diesel services. Or if that’s too uneconomical for you, maintain some of the old status quo by keeping Reading Terminal open. Is some service better than no service? Don’t know about you, but I prefer some to none.
R, 24 drop-off: inside the original driveway which encircles the Frankford Depot.
8 drop-off: West side Frankford Avenue in new driveway (actually, the original asphalt around the garage is unchanged, there are just new berths alongside the structure, as in NTC, instead of buses pulling directly onto Frankford Avenue), alongside Pratt Street.
Everything else drops off at the same place it loads.
R to East Falls/Wissahickon Transfer Center: two berths where the circles split by Bridge St. The original circle goes west on alongside the depot, while the new one actually intersects Bridge St. The southside pavement of Bridge Street is a part of this loading area. And from what I saw, one berth is for WTC, the other for Henry & Midvale trips.
3 to Strawberry Mansion/Market-Frankford Owl Bus: North side Pratt Street. There are TWO berths, as both routes are rather frequent.
5 to Front & Market: Behind Route 3 berths.
8 to Olney Terminal: Inside the private driveway, alongside Bridge Street. This is a new loading zone in the original circle.
14: two berths on the west side of the new building. I think trips for the industrial areas use the berth closer to Pratt Street, and Oxford Valley Mall trips use the next one over. Neshaminy Mall trips were spotted in both.
19 to Krewstown/Torresdale Station: under the El structure going into the yard, on a new driveway, where it meets Bridge St.
20 to Franklin Mills Mall: two berths in front of the 14.
24 to Rockledge/Bethayres/Southampton: also in the original circle, behind the 8.
25 to Spring Garden Station/Pier 70: On Bridge Street, outside the original circle.
26 to Germantown: temporarily inside the original circle, between the 8 and 24, and directly across the pavement from the 25.
58: two berths on the east side of the new building. Unsure if they have any significance, such as one being for trips via Haldeman Avenue, short trips to Tomlinson Road/Rennard Street/Bells Corner, and the other for County Line Road and Neshaminy Mall trips.
66 to City Line: temporarily behind the 25.
67 to Comcast/Franklin Mills Mall: Behind the 19.
73 to Port Richmond: Temporary spot across Bridge Street from the 66 (and alongside the yard)
84 to Franklin Mills Mall/Somerton: Anothr temp. spot, this one behind the 73.
88 to either destination: best to say, this one is directly across the new building from the Route 8 drop-off.
As best I can guess, the double berths (aside from Routes R and 3/Owl) are meant for when local and express runs are made on those routes, especially the 20. However, the 14 has so many trips and destinations, they could need it to avoid congestion.
Oh, channel 3 was filming there to get reactions... and it rained.
Chuck Greene
The first passenger passed through the turnstiles at 4:20am and was interviewed by at least two TV stations (6 ABC and Fox 29). The bad news for Eagles fans was that he was wearing an Edgerin James jersey (not really a problem, except James plays for the Indianapolis Colts, but I'm getting a little anal here...)
At 4:39am, the first revenue train departed from FTC, running closed-door express to 15 St/City Hall. The train consisted of 1056, 1055, 1003, 1004, 1164, 1163. (This is normally a dead-head train from Bridge St yard to 15 St/City Hall, then all stops to 69 St).
The first full all-stops revenue train departed at 4:49am, consisting of 1195, 1196, 1121, 1122, 1198, and 1197.
The first eastbound revenue train into the new FTC from Center City arrived at 5:24am, consisting of 1187, 1188, 1203, 1204, 1013, and 1014.
First bus arrival and departure from the new bus berths: 5549 (Rt 20: Frankford Terminal via Keswick/1052 block) arrived at 3:58am; this same bus was the first to depart from the new berths 4 minutes later as a Rt 14 to Neshaminy Mall.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
The other is two new tracks into NY-Penn from Jersey, so Acelas and Metroliners don't have to compete with commuter trains for track space. And a fourth track added to the Harrison area.
Now, the New Haven Line segment of the NEC is another story...
The RR's treat Amtrak like an annoyance.
As said my Dictionary.Com an anoyance is a nuisance and Amtrak is a good example of one.
No. The freight railroads are being stupid. To them, any passenger rail is an annoyance. With Amtrak, they only have to deal with one. They'd be a lot sorrier to have to deal with several along their networks.
At risk of sounding like a British politician from the 1940s, NATIONALISE THEM ALL!!! Merge all of the silly squabbling companies into one, divide it up into regions, and call it British Rail. The King is dead; long live the King!
CN (I think) runs a scheduled road. UPS demands a certain amount of hours shipping time from point to point as a provision of its contract, and making those 'Z' trains come at the same time every day simplifies things for the dispatchers.
Coal and other bulk commodities run as extras since they fluctuate.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If Metro North could get its act together and raise track speeds up to 120/135 and get all 4 tracks back in service then that could knock 20-40 minutes off the travel time to Boston which would make a big differance.
You are talking out the wazoo on this subject as usual. Constant-tension catenary is necessary even for commuter trains, so that speed restrictions during hot weather get eliminated once and for all. Also, over the permitted 135-mph distances, upgrading to 150 mph would indeed be minuscule (not miniscule) but the greater potential exists following upgrading of catenary to increase speeds on far more segments of the corridor than the currently 135-mph ones.
As for Metro-North/CDOT getting their collective “act together”, if you want faster speeds on their tracks, then it is a signaling issue, not a catenary issue, especially since they are upgrading their catenary wire to constant-tension.
The PRR catenary is a good, solid design and should be left in placeThe PRR catenary wire system is an antiquated, undermaintained dinosaur and should be replaced ASAP. You don’t go forward by staying backward.
Most speed issues on the corridor have to do with curves and bridges, not the wires. If the wires are the problem it is frequently because of "ramping" up and down for low clearance bridges, which is not the catenary's fault, but the bridge. PRR style is actually better on the curves as it maintains a constant rate of curvature, rather than the jagged line of the CT stuff. Look at the Shore Line in CT and Mass. It has CT cat, but there is only 150 running on less than 20 miles of track due to the geometry of the line. The cat caps things to 135, track geometry kicks in from there in.
The first segment of PRR cat (to Paoli) was installed after the NH installed nearly its entire system. It is a superior design, time tested and rugged. Replacing it is not worth the money nor the delays to install it and Amtrak agrees as all the new catenary for both the EWK station and the Secaucas Connection uses the PRR style.
Incidentally, British railway stations have a 3-letter code system too. My favourite one for remarkable stupidity is ZFD (Farringdon). What WERE they thinking? Such obvious choices as FAR, FDN, FGD and FRR are unused.
Just goes to show that 3rd Rail rules!
Is there a website I can get info on things like the various Class of track (you refer to Class 8 in the above post) and the related speeds?
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=49&PART=213&SECT;ION=9&YEAR=1999&TYPE=TEXT
and here
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=49&PART=213&SECT;ION=307&YEAR=1999&TYPE=TEXT
rooted at this page here
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_99/49cfr213_99.html
Especially out here, where every thing is single tracked.
If you are sharing rail with freight, then there will always be slow freight trains in front of you. If you are on single track,...
The ONLY way HiSpeed Rail can exist is on new dedicated ROW.
And that is probably LESS EXPENSIVE than rebuilding 19th century freight lines. (Read curves, switches, slow traffic.
Yup, it is expensive, but it will eventually pay for itself, if not in cash money, then in environment, reduced wear, maint and construction on Interstates, reduced dependancy on air travel etc etc....
Elias
Amtrak’s portions of the NEC mostly have sufficient signal and track upgrades to permit Acela Express 150 mph operation (by this I mean the former Pennsylvania RR segment south of NY Penn); the only barrier, used as primary excuse by Amtrak at present, is not having new constant-tension catenary on the former PRR.
Metro-North is upgrading its former New Haven RR catenary to constant-tension, but not upgrading signals, so the fastest speed allowed on that stretch would be 90 mph, wherever track is straight enough to permit such. Also, thanks to the Metro-North/Connecticut DOT ban on Acela Express using their active-tilt system on their rails, Acela Express will not really be permitted to increase speeds on that segment of track—something about having a 10'4"-wide train tilting on tracks with 11-foot track centers.
As I said before, the focus needs to be on average speeds, not top speeds
There are three ways of increasing average speed, namely minimizing dwell time at stations, increasing the acceleration of your train (which can result in discomfort to passengers if too rapid) or increasing top speed of trains.
If you can get a start to stop average speed up over 80 mph, you have a very compeditive rail service
You make a good case for merely retaining Metroliner Service trains and not bothering to increase top speeds on the NEC. You would make a teriffic consultant.
On the NEC increasing speed on a few track segments to 150 from 120 or 135 will not provide a very big average speed bost
That is correct—you need very extensive segments of trains running at 145 mph or better. Apparently, only 45 miles of the 225 miles between NYP and WAS was originally supposed to be upgraded to 150-mph running, which is pathetic. The PRR ROW could potentially support 140-150-mph running on about eighty-five percent of its length, I am postulating.
Eliminating bottlenecks, terminal slow running and diverging movement delays are currently more cost effective ways of boosting average speed
Not cost-effective, but necessary nonetheless. Also, focus on merely this as opposed to the big picture is not the way to do it.
I will not comment on Metro-North since they are not the biggest problem faced by Amtrak in terms of high-speed running on the Boston-Washington corridor.
Oh, I don't know about that. One of the best things you can do for high speed rail on the NEC is make sure Amtrak (or whoever the operator may be in future) has two tracks all to itself the whole way. That means four tracks wherever you've got commuter rail running.
MNRR can't really run all its commuter trains between New Rochelle and Stamford on 2 tracks. A fifth track there would be a whole bundle of money.
Even if Metro-North does use more than 2 out of 4 tracks, the four track line means there's some track assignment flexibility there.
However, you get more bang for your buck increasing a given number of miles from a top speed of 90 to a top speed of 120, than increasing the top speed on the same number of miles from 120 to 150.
Example: 60 miles at 90 mph takes 40 minutes, but increasing it to 120 mph reduces the time to 30 minutes, or a 10 minute savings. The further increase to 150 mph only reduces the time to 24 minutes, or a 6 minute additional savings.
Note that these are all relatively small numbers. The real killer on the NEC is the places the trains go 30 mph, such as the bridges, through New Rochelle, and various other places. Raising a mere 10 miles from 30 mph to 60 mph would also save 10 minutes.
Also: The tilt trains make it possible for Amtrak trains to negotiate curves at up to 110 mph (vs. 75 for Metroliner), That redces the need to decelerate, and then accelerate again, and increases the mileage at which the train can stay at runnimg speed.
Of course, you could argue that there are places where increasing the top speed from 120 to 150 costs relatively little compared to places where you want to make 30 into 75.
But work is hapening. Catenary is being replaced. ROW work is happening, albeit slowly.
Amtrak should do what it can, as much as possible.
After finalizing plans Saturday night for the Sunday morning excursion, I went out at 8:15 from Newkirk to go to NYP to meet Choo Choo and Greenberger. After a semi-dull ride on the Q train through the rathole, the C/R made the usual wrong announcement at 14th st-U.S. saying the #5 line as one of the lines you can transfer to (The #5 line on Sunday was not running below 149th st/GC. Back to the trip, I got out at 34th st, south side and walked one block to Penn station, down to the new NJT ticket area. It was so HOT there, that Choo Choo snuck up from behind to surprise me. We agreed that Greenberger would drive to Harmon Cove station, take the 10:07 to Suffern, and return back to HC and drive into the city. I bought my RTX tickets at the machine, and what a surprise for me. Not only did I get my RTX tickets, but I received a One Way ticket to Short Hills (apparently the last person who purchased RTX tickets to Short Hills, picked up only one ticket instead of the required two.) Hey today was my lucky day.
We drove through the Lincoln Tunnel and onto Route 3 to the RR station. Wow what a desolate stretch it is, the station has no platform, a couple of factories behind the sheltered waiting area, and there are two speed bumps coming off the overpass leading into the station. Across the bridge on the other side of the RR station is a high-rise residential complex, we had some spectators looking over the bridge facing the station. There were five tracks (I will number the tracks #1 through #5 for description purposes with #1 being closest to the parking lot and waiting area and #5 is closest to the apartment complex.) Track #1 was ripped apart (One of us was tempted to take some RR ties and plates home, but it wasn't me). Tack #2 would be the train arriving. Track #3 was not usable (much of this ROW will be ripped apart because of the new track connection north of where we were leads directly to the new Secaucus station).
We had fun for 20 minutes, noting the work train and crews about 200 feet south of the station dismantling Track #1. At 10:06, a 4 car train comes in, we got on (of course, we were the ONLY ONES who go on and got off at that station.). And Greenberger knows that I will post this but Greenberger used NJT for the first time today. Some stations we saw on the trip up Suffern have no shelters (how do you wait for a train in a huge rainstorm.). We took own seats in the last car, near the anti-railfan window, and the seat in front of me had a LOT of used tickets on the floor as garbage. Water cooler came in handy for us too. But a puppy in a pet cage was barking through most of the Suffern trip. Garfield station platforms look no bigger than tiny Manitou station on the MNRR Hudson Line (and that is small). I saw a street fair outside Ridgewood station, that station was pretty busy inbound on a Sunday morning. (Although Ridgewood is busy, but I don’t ride NJT often enough.). Nice ADA ramps. At Glen Rock station, I compared the zigzag to the crazy ramps at 42nd st/PA Bus Terminal IND station back in the city. We arrived at Suffern, with the mighty Harriman State Park and the Catskill Mountains in the distance, dwarfing the NY State Thruway about 1,000 feet from the RR station. No place to feed my hungry stomach there and we had to leave at 11:14 AM, (only 15 minutes to take pictures.) Choo Choo and Greenberger did their thing, the entire train was modeling for their cameras. Noted the TVM’s at Suffern did not accept bills, and Greenberger wondered how would someone pay $380 for a combined Rail/HBLR ticket from Port Jervis to NYP, without using bills (The machines did not accept the bill slot.). Hey, NJT slaps you with a $5 surcharge on the train, and the Conductors were happy to collect the surcharge saying out loud on the return trip “$5 SURCHAGE ON BOARD TRAIN, AVOID IT. BUY YOUR TICKETS AT THE STATION OR AT THE MACHINES.”. We arrived back at Harmon Cove where reporters from a local NJ newspaper greeted us on the farewell tour. After a brief chat, we took off back into the city, on the way back towards the GW bridge we saw a special truck with rail wheels trying to configure on the RR tracks, and LOCKING them together. This process too 5 minutes but it was fun to look at, conversion from truck to RR Truck, LOL. I was let off at the elevator/Cabrini side of 190th st/IND station, it was a nice day to picnic at Fort Tryon Park.
But my attempt on the A train was a horror show, in brief. I was at 190th st from 1:15 to 1:40 when the A train finally showed up. And that was after 2 battery runs northbound and two more northbound trains before the first battery run train came back down from 207th st. Took that IMPOSSIBLY CROWDED TRAIN to 34th st. walked one block to IRT 7th Ave for a 2 train, which had the wrong NEXT stop signage (from Chambers st, it skipped over to Winthrop st.) Just face it, I was glad to be back home at Newkirk at 3:15 PM.
Just another day in paradise on the crazy NYCT subway system.
Q R68 2848
NJT Comet I 5119 (to Suffern)
NJT Comet I 5733 (from Suffern)
A R38 4012
D R68 2691
A R38 4012
2 R142 6364
Q R68 2753
The machine at Suffern did accept credit cards, which I'm sure is how most would buy a $380 ticket, but I pushed the cash button.
The C/R wasn't charging the $5 surcharge; he was warning people to to buy tickets in advance next time or he would charge it next time.
Sorry you had a long wait for the A, but at least you got an R-38 in the end. I got stuck with an R-44.
They could have at least run it from 168 to WTC.
I thought the F was Southbound through Cranberry tube as per last weekend's advisory
Anyway they really needed the C this weekend, without the L the A was more crowded...
Don't know why the C couldn't have turned at 145th instead, as it's done other recent weekends.
And, why not? I never had family or friends in New Jersey and I lived at the far end of Brooklyn where it took me over an hour to get to Penn Station, Grand Central, or even the various Brooklyn stations of the LIRR. That never stopped me from riding the various commuter rail lines available. A TRUE buff will do whatever it takes to ride a train or a bus, not just whatever might be "convenient"!
You don't like Peter Witt streetcars?!?!?!?!
Well phooey to you too!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The PCCs were the car of the future.
They still are!
No idea whether the conductors were charging people who had to buy tickets from them, I bought mine in advance.
Well, I can't remember how many times I've ambled over to Jersey from Brooklyn. By train, by bus, by foot, by ferry. I've done things like get to Newark Penn Station, either PATH or NJT, walk south past Newark Airport, and further down to the Goethals Bridge to walk back into New York. And the reverse of that trip too.
I've taken buses just to get to various Pascack Valley branch stations, like Moonachie, to catch the p.m. outbound trains up a few stations. Then just walked until I ran across a PABT-bound bus line. Gone on rides along the RV branch, got out and walked north to the Gladstone branch and got back to Hoboken. Riding the old Erie MU trains, with open-able windows. I've hitched over the Outterbridge (sp?) Crossing to Perth Amboy, walked to Carteret. And many other variations on that theme.
All I'm saying is, it's very much possible to do the trip if you were so inclined. It's true that each railfan has their own inner reasons why they enjoy it. I enjoy the infrastructure of the rails a great deal. And there are other, perhaps less easy to define reasons why I do it. I have to say though, you're missing out on a large chunk of the metropolitan areas' total rail mileage if you ignore New Jersey. Even for rapid transit interests, there is plenty over there to ponder.
I could railfan the commuter rail systems, but it's generally just not worth the time or expense unless the trip doubles as actual transportation. (I have taken Metro-North to Yonkers when I could have taken Bee-Line and saved 50 cents and a 15-minute walk.)
The effort you have put into describing consists, with car types, serial numbers, frequency diring first hand observation and your willingness to spend hours on a platform waiting for a particular railcar type to appear, suggest otherwise.
The effort you have put into describing consists, with car types, serial numbers, frequency diring first hand observation and your willingness to spend hours on a platform waiting for a particular railcar type to appear, suggest otherwise.
Not really, how many times have you heard David write about how he waited at Mineola's platforms "describing consists, with car types, serial numbers, frequency diring first hand observation and your willingness to spend hours on a platform waiting for a particular railcar type to appear"?
Sorry for all the separate postings.
Hmmm, should we or shouldn't we?
Just for the record, we were issued memos regarding the new TVM's on the Main/Bergen Line. It stated that the suurcharges will not be charged on that line until October 1st, to give the riders a grace period to learn about the machines.
I've also got some photos of an addition to the Milwaukee Art Museum designed by Calatrava, so you can get an idea of his style. They can be found here.
Kudos to the Port Authority for selecting such a talented architect... Hopefully this project will become the crown jewel of NYC's transit infrastructure.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Personally, I think of Lower Manhattan as New York's Alstadt, and am not partial to futuristic designs. The best place for those is west-Midtown.
I am glad, however, that the plan is to include a really tall skyscraper, and there hasn't been a storm of objections to this. I want to get everything back -- shopping, office space, transit, restaurant, observation deck, broadcast tower.
...2800 innocent people.
What? It isn't Stillwell Ave / Coney Island? :)
--Mark
Hopefully this project will become the crown jewel of NYC's transit infrastructure
I can think of many other extant and past structures that deserve the appelation of “crown jewel”—but I do not believe that a post-modern monument to ego would sufficiently earn that moniker.
Besides, this is what I would prefer to stand on the WTC site before any other structure. JMHO; don’t know how many others share it…but there it is.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
But things built in the 2000s should not look like they were built in the 1900s (decades, not centuries) just because nobody is creative enough to come up with some nice looking modern buildings.
I do not consider the Howard Beach station an eyesore. It's a matter of taste.
In the middle of a residental neighborhood, with no buildings of this like, I think it is.
And even though not exactly the same situation, I say the same about the new Stillwell terminal.
The new Stillwell Terminal is not in a residential neighborhood, it's in a rundown commercial area. Do you think the station should look like its rundown neighbors?
Thank you! There's nothing I hate more than a new building masquerading as an old one.
But that doesn't look Dual Contract to me. It looks like Pitkin Avenue--station, no clue.
P.S. If you could post a link it would help. The following code should work:
<IMG SRC="http://www.nycsubway.org/img/iX000/img_XXXX.jpg">
Substitute the first digit of the image number (7) for the first "X" and the full image number (7581) for the other 4 "X"s. Like this:
<IMG SRC="http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i7000/img_7581.jpg">
to get
avid
If nothing else, it eliminates the need to explain to someone looking for "Van Wyck" the necessity of asking "which Van Wyck?" or having to explain the difference.
An ounce of planning is worth a pound of customer service.
That got me to wondering whether there was any location outside Manhattan where more of the great subway street names (terminals/former terminals/lines) come together.
As an aside to the tangent, in the middle of this is Brendan Byrne plaza. If I remember correctly, he was a governor of NJ (who's name was removed from the Meadowlands Arena because Continental Airlines came up with some cash). What was his connection to the area?
Jimmy
David
Jimmy
People thought because part of the station name is "Brooklyn Bridge" City Hall was right upstairs.
Conversely, if one touches the third rail or the catenary without touching ground, you simply become part of the high voltage circuit, and would not be electrocuted. This effect can be seen when power utility lineman stand on an insulated bucket, connect the bucket onto the power line, and are able to freely work on the line while it is hot without being killed. Even on high voltage power lines of 69,000 volts or more this is done.
Likewise, when tower crews climb a live AM Radio broadcast tower, they either jump onto the tower leg, or step on it from an insulated step and simply become part of the antenna. I've done it myself many times, even on AM towers transmitting as much as 50,000 watts. Of course, I wouldn't advise trying any of this unless you have been highly trained in working around high voltage (and in the case of radio, RF). I just explain it for reference purposes.
The London Underground has two power rails (+300v, -300v) used in addition to the two running rails. This localizes any stray current to the road bed.
A few trolley systems used the same system as a trackless trolley where there are two overhead wires (+600v, 0v). This eliminates stray current.
* At an interface between dissimilar materials carrying current, you may have electrolysis, where one side erodes. The problem with rails carrying current is that steel is not a perfect conductor, so some current 'leaks' to earth where it may find its way to a metal pipe. Somewhere along the pipe the current will flow back into the ground and this is the point of electrolysis and in time the pipe will be compromised.
Quiz: Why is trolley and subway power generally positive with respect to ground (say +600v) as opposed to being negative (-600v)?
I don't know. Always assumed it worked better with electrolysis
protection that way. Do you have a definite reference?
I guess electrolysis is an issue with which you've needed to
familiarize yourself given TMNY's ongoing quest with Central Hudson.
How is that going, anyway?
My house (and many others) has an electrical supply where current is carried by Romex (three wires inside insulator). The grounding wire (as in other houses) goes to the main drinking water supply pipe (copper, which replaced galvanized steel).
Out of curiosity, how long until this is eaten away?
Same deal. Whenever I write specs, aluminum is specifically prohibited.
Even with steel pipe, electrolysis of the grounding electrode
connection is not a big deal. It doesn't generally carry
any current unless there is a fault. As long as the connection
has been made with an approved clamping or welding method and
is kept dry, or is covered with that goop, things should be fine.
Incidentally, if you are relying on a cold water pipe for ground,
make sure the connection is on the street side of the water
meter. Make sure you don't have a length of PVC pipe mixed
in there somewhere.
"Incidentally, if you are relying on a cold water pipe for ground,
make sure the connection is on the street side of the water
meter. Make sure you don't have a length of PVC pipe mixed
in there somewhere."
My electrician did just that.
My R142s cannot benifit from DC power...all motor systems are AC which run off electronic convertors. The Edison/Tesla/Westinghouse
war ended one hundred years ago and trainsets did not require the DC torque. Third rail should have been 650 VAC. CI Peter
I thought they run off inverters and not convertors.
Back in the day is was simply a running rail mounted on insulated brackets, today...well I still think it might be steel.
Trackage is not only bonded together with metal plates full of holes (fishplates) but copper braiding installed by the use of explosive bolts.
BUZZZ Wrong answer. It is welded in place by a thermite style reaction...see below:
BTW, excellent use of the term "fishplate". Here is the US they are generally called "splice bars".
Yes, still steel.
Trackage is not only bonded together with metal plates full of holes (fishplates) but copper
braiding installed by the use of explosive bolts.
>BUZZZ Wrong answer. It is welded in place by a thermite style reaction...see below:
Not always. There are other types of bonding in common use, including
the style in which a hole is drilled either into the head of the
rail or the web and the jumper is connected using a tapered
expansion sleeve.
D-----O
Suppose the diagram represents the 4 wheels on a truck, with one wheel having a flat spot.
Are the top two wheels connected to each other electrically? Or are they insulated from each other?
If they were connected to each other, then I'm having a hard time understanding how the signal track circuit and the ground track circuit can be separate.
Yes, the wheels on each axle are intimately connected to each
other electrically. With no train in a track circuit block,
AC voltage, applied to one end of the circuit across the rails
with a limiting resistor, completes a circuit through both
rails and the track relay, which is across the rails at the
other end of the block. The relay picks up. When a train is
in the circuit, the axles short out the AC voltage. The resistor
limits the total current to a small value (about 5-10 amps).
Effectively, the track relay and the train axles are in parallel.
Since the track relay has a resistance (I should say impedance)
of about 2 ohms and even a single axle has a contact resistance
of under 0.1 ohm, most of the current flows through the axles
and very little flows through the relay, and the relay drops out.
http://www.osha-slc.gov/SLTC/radiofrequencyradiation/
I did it for years and just look at me now. FCC First #P1-2-43516, issued 10/70, renewed lifetime.