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John Snow, CEO of CSX, Treasury Secretary. No surprise THERE either.
The "low ball" game has been played by MANY a contractor to "clinch the deal" ... in EVERY case, the vendor has rued the decision to do that. The STATE always wins. And for subway cars, State 7, vendors 0.
If Alstom goes bankrupt, both Alstom and the state lose.
And if all else fails, then Honest Al will probably get AM General (The makers of Hummers, OK to look at, awful to ride) to build a plant in Patchogue and crank out railcars until they go broke like everybody else. And like always, the suckers will line up since Wall Street LOVES big sales quarters, as long as the profit downsides are in ANOTHER quarter. :)
Budd never went under.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
He's a robot?
Perhaps that's when the Concourse peaked as well. Must have been a cool place to be in the heyday, with new art-deco apartment buildings and a new express subway line taking you down to Midtown or up to the parks in no time.
Peace,
ANDEE
Perhaps the partners foresaw the coming of the automobile and the resulting decline in ridership. These days, rather than 15 trains per hour on the local and express, you very briefly get 15 trains per hour on both of them put together.
Auto ownership is probably not the reason for lower ridership on the Concourse Line today vs. the 1940's. It's not the sort of area where most people have cars. I'd say it's because fewer people who live in the area are working, hence less commuting.
This implies that ridership could rise once again, as on the L line, if more workers move the area.
September 4 , 2002
New housing opens in Highbridge By Steven Gnagni - Managing Editor
Welcome to the Highbridge housing boom. In mid-August, tenants began to move into a new building at 900 Ogden Avenue here in Highbridge. Meanwhile, construction is moving along on several other new buildings in Highbridge, and even more buildings are in the works. The new building, located at the bottom of the hill on Ogden Avenue, is nine stories tall and has 120 units - a mix of studios and one and two bedrooms. Eighteen of those apartments are wheelchair accessible, and are set aside for tenants with special needs. The apartments all have wood floors. They are equipped with smoke detectors, a sprinkler system, and cable hookups. There is also a community room, a laundry room, and two elevators. Tenants are moving into the building in phases, with more tenants moving in throughout September. The apartments were only available to residents earning up to 60 percent of the area median income. "[This new complex] represents quality affordable housing - something that's greatly needed in the Bronx," said Marc Altheim, one of the principals of Atlantic Development Group, the developers of the building. Atlantic Development Group worked with the New York City Housing Development Corporation to arrange the financing. The developers used tax-exempt bonds, tax incentives from the city's Housing and Preservation Department (HPD) and federal low-income tax credits. Atlantic Development Group is also working on two other buildings in the area. One, located on Merriam Avenue between 168th and 169th streets, will have 95 units and is slated to open sometime this winter. The other, which is now in the planning stages, is located at 1314 Nelson Avenue, between 169th and 170th streets. That building will be seven stories tall and will have 115 units, and will use similar funding as 900 Ogden Avenue. Atlantic, however, is not the only company developing in the neighborhood. Summit Development Partners plans to break ground in December or January on a building at Summit Avenue and 165th Street, according to Justin Stern, a partner with Summit. "We're currently working on the design, and it will be approximately 40 units," Mr. Stern said. "We're still working on the financing, but they will be affordable. We think it's a great idea - a good population base, and we feel it would be a successful development." Mr. Stern also mentioned Summit might be interested in expanding the project should any neighboring property become available. The building is slated to be a six-story building, and Mr. Stern said he hopes to have the building ready for occupancy in early 2004. The other big developer in Highbridge these days is the Highbridge Unity Center, also known as H.U.C. According to CEO Jorge Batista, H.U.C. is planning a number of properties: a building at 172nd Street and Shakespeare Avenue with 72 one bedrooms available to seniors over 62, which should be finished in February; a building at 1275 Nelson Avenue, which will have 82 units for seniors over 55 and should also be finished in February; eight townhouses at Ogden Avenue and 169th street, which will be completed in January or February; and a number of other townhouses on Shakespeare Avenue and Jessup Place. Construction on these last townhouses will begin next spring. H.U.C. is accepting applications for the apartments at 1275 Nelson Avenue through October 1, and applications for apartments at Shakespeare and 172nd will likely be accepted in December. Finally, the city's Housing and Preservation Department (H.P.D.) is rehabilitating a number of buildings. According to a spokeswoman at H.P.D., the agency has rehabilitated over 600 units in Southern Highbridge over the last seven years. H.P.D. renovated seven city-owned buildings and then sold them to local nonprofits - H.U.C. and Belmont Arthur L.D.C. - through the Neighborhood Opportunities Work program.
All Contents Copyright 2002 Highbridge Horizon and Highbridge Community Life Center
Not impressed. The ability of an area to attract subsidized housing is constrained by the City's willingness to not build mass transit improvements and not fund its schools. When affluent enough people are moving in to attract unsubisized housing, and decent enough people are moving in to make it feasible to rehabilitate housing without subsidies, then the West Bronx will come back.
So it's time once again to throw up the same old tired quote I throw out here every so often ...
Alexander Tyler, (in his 1770 book, 'Cycle of Democracy' )
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising them the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over a lousy fiscal responsibility, always followed by a dictatorship. The average of the world's great civilizations before they decline has been 200 years.
These nations have progressed in this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependency; from dependency back again to bondage."
... or as Homer Simpson would say, "Oooooo ... tax cut." (drools)
This sort of reminds me of the debates Ron from Bayside and I have had concerning downtown Jamaica. He cites the recent increase in government and/or subsidized commercial construction as signs of the area's comeback. I maintain that it's premature to talk of any comeback unless and until there is unsubsidized private development.
Right. It isn't that subsidized development isn't valuable. It's just that there is a limited amount of it that the government can afford, limited in part by the amount of unsubusidized development available to tax. Unsubsidized development is not limited by the budget, and (if successful) tends to attract other unsubsidized development.
Note that any new development (or increase in property value due to rehabilitation) in New York City outside of Manhattan south of 96th Street is exempt from property taxes for years and years and years. This is in contrast with "welcome stranger" assessment policies in most suburban jurisdictions.
So the idea that the outer boroughs cannot attract development because of taxes is wrong. The concentration of wealth in Manhattan pays the taxes. Without it, we'd be Buffalo.
You say D'Amato and I say Po'tato ... you say it's murky, and I say Paturkey, D'Amato, Paturkey, Bruno, Gullota, let's call the whole thing off?
I don't know about that. I'd say there's too damn many cars, try finding a parking space after 8PM, damn near impossible.
Peace,
ANDEE
I forgot about that, but yes it is widely known that the middle class who didn't want a house of their own in Westchester nonetheless decamped when COOP City was built. And for what? A bus to the train and a long commute?
Objectively the Concourse has better housing, except that if you live there now many of your neighbors will be poor and some troubled. I keep hoping that (since the Bronx is the Latino borough) the Concourse will become the "in" place to live if you are Latino. Maybe if J. Lo moves there.
Ha!
Think about this. Here is an area that was once home to the uppercrust, and still has many nice buildings. Planners can make plans, public officials can make infrastructure investments, you can have promotional campaigns, etc., and nothing happens.
But, if someone with a good body and a good voice moves in, and convinces some well known friend to do the same, BOOM -- it's like DiNiro in TRIBECA.
It's a mad, mad, mad, mad world.
At least J. Lo titled one of her albums after a subway train (On the 6).
No. It's much much better in this case. :)
"At least J. Lo titled one of her albums after a subway train (On the 6)."
My favorite musical subway reference remains that of Bob Dylan:
In the empty lot where the ladies play blindman's bluff with the keychain
And the all-night girls they whisper of escapades out on the D train
We can hear the night watchman click his flashlight...
Which of Dylan's songs is that?
http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/visions.html
I'm sure some people here like her for THAT music video [besides her looks of course] ;-).
What's interesting is that Co-op City has remained a reasonably desirable place in which to live despite not getting the promised subway service. I suppose there's a lesson there, one that's not necessarily a good one for advocates of expanded subway service.
Hmmm. Ya know, you can never tell about demographic trends in this town. What's known today as the "xxx boro" could easily take on other characteristics as the years roll by. Look at Brooklyn. Whole lots of eastern Europeans living and moving in. They are expanding their "turf" fairly quickly. Never know...the Bronx as the next "..."in" place to live if you are Slavic."!
Hey, as long as they take the subway it's all good.
I had thought that much of the Bronx was in decline well before Co-op City opened. While the Concourse still might have been a relatively decent area in the 1960's, the trends were all downward.
Its hard to imagine that the Concourse line once had one line that had 15tph and now as you said its 15tph on both the B and D. If the line were built with 4 tracks it would be more busier but you have the Bx1/2 overground via Grand Concourse which does take some of the potential crowding the Concourse line could have and I bet that if not for the 1/2, it would have more hours of peak express service.
That is a heavily used bus route, given that the subway runs right under it most of the way. Who is using it rather than the subway?
Peace,
ANDEE
the Bx2 does NOT run on the Concourse the whole time, plus the Bx1 is on the Concourse BEFORE the B/D show up at 167 St
Those B of T hearings must have been pips (does anyone have a picture of John Delaney smiling? Every picture that I've ever seen of him shows the face of someone who looks like he died about an hour ago, and it seems as if that carried inot his dealings with the public, elected officials, and community groups). Clearly, they took no prisoners. At the same time, though, what would have happened if the "Second System" plan was implemented and the Burke Avenue extension of the Concourse line was built? Would that line or the 8th Avenue line have the train or track capacity to handle everything?
Maybe if they had gotten their way the 6th Avenue subway would have been built on 2nd Avenue, and we wouldn't be in this crush on the East Side today. The 2nd and 3rd Avenue Els would have come down sooner, and perhaps the PATH would have extended northward as part of a plan to eliminate the 6th Avenue el.
The big disadvantage of the IND is that the trunk lines are to the west, but the Bronx, Queens, and Brooklyn are to the east. So Bronx and Brooklyn residents have to go west and then back east to get to most of Midtown, and Queens residents have to go west and THEN south to get to Downtown.
Madison was a much ritzier street than Second Avenue, and it is between two streets that are even ritzier. No wonder the plan failed. Perhaps if they had proposed going down Second and getting rid of an El, rather than tearing up the street in from of mansions and luxury apartments and a block away from Fifth and Park, it would have happened.
If you have the chance to get to a library that has the Bronx Home-News, check out some of the articles from December 1927 to February 1928 on this issue (to say nothing of the articles that they ran in late 1929 through Spring 1930 on the "Second System". They acted like the world was coming to the end because the B of T had proposed to build additional elevated lines in the Bronx). There were some very creative arguments being made back and forth on this issue.
While designers get most of the credit for a project, they are pretty low on the totem pole in the world of government. I know, I worked in a Design Office of the GA DOT, and was involved in two road projects.
In New York bureaucrats make that kind of decision, if they are allowed. The politicans aren't interested in public policy; in fact they don't even understand it. They are interested in getting paid.
You are lucky indeed, in New York, to have someone in charge who has an idea what to do and tells you to do it. More likely you end up hoping and praying for the opportunity to do something, anything at all other than come up with justifications for the unjustifiable and do "studies.'
Might have been different back in the day.
Not to mention the fact it was ALL R-1's at the time!!!
:)
BTW, it still is a cool place to be.
Peace,
ANDEE
I just did some multiplication of the average weekday, Saturday and Sunday ridership on this line in 2002. It was only 20,134,806, just 36.7 percent of the peak ridership.
Annual ridership for subway as a whole, in contrast, was 1.41 billion, or two-thirds of the WWII peak.
This speaks volumes about the West Bronx. And remember, the Concourse line does not go through the South Bronx ghetto as originally constituted. The dense apartment buildings on the two ridges -- the one occupied by the Concourse itself and the one west of it along University Avenue -- were built for the middle class.
I wonder who close all the lines are to their peak ridership?
Peace,
ANDEE
The E train that went into the relay at 71st CTL, wrong line up on the V and cutout door on the F that was OPEN are just as serious or worse and everyone got away scot free.
Peace,
ANDEE
They felt I made a rookie screwup but the other guy made an understandable error.
Besides, it'll just make fireworks - the insulation on those ain't thick enough, nor are your shoes. Heh.
One car moves are a no-go since 1991 or 1992.
One other question, the T/O on the D, why didn't he/she read the signal correctly, if the offender did, they would not see the "D" indicator in the second pair of signals located after the first one (the PM rush D express track diverts on first signal, the regular D trains divert on second signal). You will ALWAYS see that "D" on the lower yellow signal for all D trains needing to divert at switch leading to 145th st/LL.
All of the above in addition to the T/D on duty at 59MT.
The TW/O is at fault for giving the wrong lineup, regardless of what the T/O punched.
The T/D goes down just because he was there.
The TA takes down everyone who thy can hold accountable. The exact reason for taking down the T/D I don't know, but at GC a few weeks ago a train ent BIE over a home signal and they took the T/D out of service as well as the TW/O, T/O and amazingly, the C/R.
Or maybe that's the trick right there. Just like the TW/O he's supposed to know what's there.
The TW/O sees a parade of lights (they used to be red bars on the big board, I assume they're still the same 30+ years later) ... the lights do NOT tell them what train it is, only that a train is THERE. Thus, the TW/O has to KNOW what train it is and follow it through their territory. In the OLD days, there were numerous towers along the way so at worst, maybe they had to keep track of 8 trains max in their "section" ... I wonder how many it is THESE days with all those remote towers unoccupied?
Raw deal all around for sure ... but you're SUPPOSED to know your lineups when you're in the broom closet. That's one thing they never nailed ME for. :(
A parade is right. And to respond to how many we keep track of today, I can't give you an exact area, but you can guess from the following:
Grand Central controls from Brooklyn Bridge to 125th Street.
Times Sq. Mainline controls from Chambers Street to 96th Street.
Mosholu yard controls from Burnside to Woodlawn but sees down to Mott
Westchester Master controls from 138/3 to Pelham Bay Park.
Unionport (will) control from Jackson Avenue to 241 St. Currently its E 180 to 241 St.
You mean 205th St Tower....
-Stef
-Stef
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
And as for the "D", that means a two shot grade timer on the Diverging route, since it's a "downhill" to 145 ...
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
But I'm as perplexed as you are as to why the conductor went downtown, but it really happened. Because the MTA has NO sense of humor, I won't say any more. I'm just glad that I got out of that nuthouse back in the 1970's when EVERYONE was MUCH more concerned about the trains not bursting into flames or falling off the el. We pretty much all knew we were in the same leaky boat and tended to watch out for one another rather than bang each other in. And somehow the railroad worked somewhat without these modern day gestapo.
I guess there's a "discipline quota," ain't no other POSSIBLE explanation. :(
Jon is more than likely right, its probably something he didn't do after the fact. That's the only time the conductor can do anything. The rules state that the C/R must pull the cord at the station following the incorrect route.
Cardinals Ximinez, Fang, and Biggles burst in.
Cardinal Ximinez: Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise! Surprise and fear, fear and
surprise. And fear... and surprise. Did I mention fear...and, oh, of course, silly me, surprise.
Cardinal Biggles: Cardinal!
Cardinal Ximinez: What is it, Cardinal?
Biggles whispers something in Ximinez's ear. A look of dawning realization on Ximinez's face.
Cardinal Ximinez: Normally, we would torture you until you all confessed. But, given the circumstances, I think we'll just buy a
parrot. How about that one over there?
Owner: Oh yes, the Norwegian blue -- beautiful plumage.
Cardinal Ximinez: Is that parrot...dead?
Owner: Oh no, not at all, it's just resting.
Cardinal Ximinez: Damn! Are you sure?
Owner: Oh, yes, quite certain.
Cardinal Ximinez: Let me see that parrot. (Inspects parrot) Seems dead to me. Cardinals, have a look.
Cardinal Fang: It's dead.
Cardinal Biggles: This parrot is no more.
Owner: Oh, no, no, no. It just, err, pining for the fjords.
Cardinal Ximinez: It's not pining, it's passed on.
Cardinal Fang. It has ceased to be.
Cardinal Biggles: Shuffled off its mortal coil.
Cardinal Ximinez: We'll take it!
Owner: I'm telling you, it's not... What was that?
Cardinal Ximinez: I said we'll take it.
Owner: Oh you won't regret it sir. Would you like it cooked here, or to go?
Cardinal Ximinez: We'll just take it as is, please.
Owner: That'll be twenty guineas.
Cardinal Ximinez: Here you go. (Hands the owner money and grabs that parrot) Hahahaha!
Cardinal Fang: Hahahaha!
Cardinal Biggles: Hoohoohoohoo!
Cardinal Fang: No, cardinal, hahahahaha!
Cardinal Biggles: Hoohoho...haa...hahahahaha!
Fang: Very good, Cardinal!
The cardinals run out, laughing diabolically.
Owner: They forgot to get a license...
So, before you unpack that Synclavier and start making noises like a strangled cat, Local 802 of Associated Musicians wants to have a gander at that card. You DO have a card, right? Heh.
I was away on R&R for the past month, hence the lack of postings. Now I'm trying to get caught up. Heard a few cows moo while I was away.:)
Good to see youse around!
Community whiz, and you're invited! Woohoo! Heh.
These days, I thought the nearest photographer was hauled off to jail.
Signals:
A line takes GREEN OVER GREEN on all homeball timers
D Bronx PM Express takes GREEN OVER YELLOW or first homeball by north end of 135th st (so that it can divert left for Track M).
D Bronx Local takes GREEN OVER GREEN for first signal, then GREEN OVER YELLOW for the second signal (so it can divert on second switch to the right track).
No excuses for not seeing the second signal correctly.
If that's the case then the T/O could have cancelled the punch BEFORE the train left 59 St/CC or radio the master tower.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
OK, so then it went to 168th.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'll hate myself, but...
Why is it that whenever this happens, everyone assumes the T/O punched incorrectly? Contrary to popular belief you can punch correctly and still be issued a wrong line-up. When I was working on the B, if I could have gotten a dollar every time I got a wrong line-up after punching correctly, I'd have lots of dollars.
Why hate yourself, its true.
It could be accidental, or the TW/O not knowing what they're doing.
On more than one occaision I've hit the wrong exit by accident (damn buttons too close together), but fortunately was able to catch my error before the signal cleared for the train.
Another instance (I will not mention the location to protect the stupid) is where a T/O punched, but the TW/O had not recorded the time of the previous train. So the TW/O punches for the train they thought they were getting rather than what had punched... and you can guess how that turned out.
Even if they did punch corrctly, once they accept the wrong lineup they're guilty.
I'm not arguing with you that T/Os should know their routes, because they should. But supervision should make sure of this.
on the N/B D line, the Points of No Return are as follows:
42nd st/6th ave
47th st/50th sts/Rock Center
135th st.
59th st/CC is not considered a Point of No Return because either track can be used.
I'm working at Nostrand Junction. I sent a Northbound #5 train on the local track. No big deal, because Nevins St tower can cross that train back over to the express tracks, right? So this isn't a point of no return, in theory.
Now that trains gets to Atlantic Ave. Nevins spots it and attempts to cross it over, but oh crap! The switch won't lock up in reverse. Now that #5 train has no way to return to its normal route.
Or even worse, that train dies while crossing over. No now Lex or 7th Ave service.
Now I have to explain how that #5 was on Track 4 anyway.
Maybe these 2 examples are a bit extreme, but just to reinforce my theory that any point should be considered the point of no return.
Kool-D mentioned the home signals marked as points of no return. My point was that all home signals should be treated as points of no return by both the train operator and the tower operator unless permission has been given to take that signal.
People these days either don't know their job or are afraid to exercise authority for fear of writing reports.
Unfortunately that's the way it is. All it takes is for the wrong person to be inconvenienced (or just someone who likes to complain) and everyone goes downtown. Happened at Conetinental, a T/D was warned by a Supt because someone that knew him complained about trains getting runs 2 days in a row.
Especially on CPW with that complex i'locking.
Yes, he should pay the price of a small 'oops'. Depending on who showed up to deal with it, this guy is looking at up to 6 WEEKS of UNPAID vacation for this. My original point was that folks here make a bad situation worse by ASSUMING the existence of a wrong punch.
That is what you also get from dick-brained show-off operating for the benefit of the foamers. He/she might have challenged the timer and won but not the route.
If you know the history of the subways you know what your lineups are.
Yes, it created a long gap in Concourse service due to a missed interval -- but missed intervals are deliberately created all the time at local stations at the slightest provocation.
Yes, some passengers may have been dragged to the wrong place -- but, assuming the C/R was remotely awake, he would have noticed that the train was on the upper level at 145th and would have told his passengers to get off and wait for the next D downstairs, so only the inattentive ended up at 168th.
Far worse is accepting a wrong lineup that doesn't permit such easy recovery on the part of the passenger, or changing routes or bypassing stations without crystal clear announcements.
Isn't that overkill? Shouldn't the cord be reserved for emergencies? And why can't passengers who were waiting for the A or were going to transfer to the A stay on until 168?
True, but it's an indication that the T/O *may* be impaired, and it requires the Conductor to investigate, since the Conductor is "in charge" of the train (and this rule has been enforced since 14th Street).
You don't need a full blown CBTC system to get Automatic Train Identification (ATI). They used ATI on the Flushing Line 40 years ago. It can be implemented today with off the shelf commodity electronics that does not interface with existing equipment. All it takes is 802.11 a/b/g adapters, access points and an email server.
OTOH, there are more options, if the ATI can interface with the signal system. The TA spent a bundle on the Queens Master Tower without any thought of introducing ATI at the same time. They had CRT displays rather than hard wired display boards. Displaying and recording the operator's punch with the red bar is child's play programming-wise.
Now HERE'S where it gets SICK! Remember those stupid RFID tags I brought up a while back? Slap one of those "UPC CODES" on a CARBODY with its car number, throw in some LOW frequency (wide range) RF pickup/interrogator thingies, and place RF loops at diverge stations, and ATID could solve the problem.
But right now, the tower is FLYING BLIND. Back in the days of MARKER LIGHTS, the TW/O could look out the bay window when they saw headlights reflecting off the glass, SPOT the marker lights ... "green-green, D PM express, give it the center track, there it goes by my FACE ... red-green, 207th, white-white, CC, local lineup - green/white, first D local after PM rush" ...
***OH*** so easy for the tower ops ... the could SEE the damned train, markers showed up as bright as the headlights for the bay window (foamers will NEVER appreciate how BRIGHT signal heads are from the center glass - EVER!, compare to marker lights to an old-timey tower op when halogen didn't exist - that's what the FRESNEL LENSES were for) ...
But today, because some ASSHAT decided to do away with markers and bright-assed HUGE multicolored signage, you can't tell what train it is when it's stopped at the PLATFORM anymore, much less "down the hole" ... aggggh. Morons, now they need freaking CPU's to run a @!$%^#@ railroad just as much as they need a CPU to make COFFEE. AGGGH! :(
Ah, the pleasures of a Flushing Super Express back then... That can't happen if half the Flushing staff is busy sleeping right now. 8)
Thanks for the name, brah! I *knew* it was something close to what I had thought, but it was such a short phart in the history of the system that it didn't stick to the old meat-rom. Heh. Little metal toilet seats ... HOW APPROPRIATE! (grin)
The system was called Identra. The carborn equipment was a tuned circuit with 3 switch selectable frequencies. The wayside equipment was essentially a grid dip meter. It was adequate enough on the Flushing line to separate out local, expresses and super expresses.
Now HERE'S where it gets SICK! Remember those stupid RFID tags I brought up a while back? Slap one of those "UPC CODES" on a CARBODY with its car number, throw in some LOW frequency (wide range) RF pickup/interrogator thingies, and place RF loops at diverge stations, and ATID could solve the problem.
There are problems with using barcode technology in this application. The changes in ambient light level creates problems for using barcode technology outdoors. Decoding works best if the barcode is stationary and the scanner throws a moving laser beam across the barcode. Scanners scan the barcode many times to average out errors. They eventually stop scanning when the get a valid barcode. The same is true for wands, people will simply pass the wand over the barcode several times before the get a valid reading. This is not quite the context for NYCT train operations at various places.
There are dozens of ways to design an ATI system. Certainly using RFID tags, some RF loops, etc would work. However, let me reiterate an extensible low cost alternative. Each train has a computer that has a wifi card on it. The computer is programmed to send out an email that contains some information about the car number and the scheduled route. This information is entered by switch settings on the exterior.
The wayside equipment is also computer connected to both a wifi access point and the TA's intranet via their $750 million fiber optic network. The wayside equipment would append their location to the train's id email and forward the amended email to an access list that includes the forward towers.
The tower equipment is a computer that reads its email and formats the information in an appropriate display on some crt.
The point is that the equipment is off the shelf and has commodity pricing. The software is open architecture and requires just a few simple scripts. If this ATI system is completely separated from the signal "safety" system, then there is no reason not to bother with "vital circuts" and all the other shiboleths that the rail equipment manufactures have convinced the industry they need.
That all said, "IDENTRA" (thanks to ALL that have jogged my memory) turned out to be a pathetic and unreliable JOKE as far as how it worked in the TA ... it was ditched, and for good reason. It screwed up more often than it worked. If you ever *RODE* the "automated train," on the TSQ/GCT shuttle (as someone recently bore witness) that too was "ecstacy for the wiglets, agony for the geese" as well.
What is NEEDED (in the absence of marker lights, which SOLVED the problem along with MANY towers) is a reliable means of determining "is the NEXT train past X816 a D train, an A train, a B or a C. Pure and simple, those who have to pull a lever need to RELIABLY KNOW that the parade of lights about to stop at 59 *IS* a D train. When that happens, then the T/O will NOT get a bad lineup, the TW/O can yank the crank with confidence and NOBODY has to drink a few beers in able to whiz in the cup before clocking out. :)
But UNTIL then, the beakies get to play "capture the hourly" for no damned good reason. The SYSTEM sucks, why beat up on the HOURLIES? HELL, when *I* worked for the TA in the days when we had marker lights and towermen/women, you didn't *GET* a bad lineup ... that's the reason for my passion on all this - progress is SUPPOSED TO MEAN IMPROVEMENT, not five steps back into chaos and primordial soup. :(
Oh yeah, Shrub got appointed. Nevermind.
They showed up even brighter without the headlights.
Tom
Foamer glass is cool and all, but MOTORMAN GLASS! Woof! BLINDING! Hell, you could even spot your STEEL off the reflections! :)
You can see the mount for one of the barcode readers outside Mosholu Tower on the yard lead.
Also its right smack in the middle and blocking the catwalk. Ah the brainiacs at the TA.
But an RF ID transponder that could identify a SPECIFIC train would do wonders to relieve the problem now (and I expect CBTC will be an answer here with whatever else it does) as far as indetifying "*THIS* train is 0704 Delta Brighton" ... if a tower had a marker on the board that spelled out "release 12, 14 and 16, set 11, 17 and 18 for THIS train, it's the D that left Brighton at 7:04AM and it's late ... anyone at the levers could breathe a sigh of relief KNOWING that this puppy's going to the Bronx and they can have another poppy seed bagel. :)
And you didn't hit the GT50, but unfortunately it cleared slowly enough that it jolted you enough to let go and so you STILL went BIE. Go down for the piss test now. I'm going to suggest 15 days. :)
But man ... 15? Business days, or "proletariat calendar days?" Ya gotta love the way the swine have it rigged ... 15 days can be either TWO weeks, or THREE weeks, depending on spinmeister. :)
We have FOUND the weapons of Mass Distraction!
That's how I'll work it with you. I mean I know you couldn't stand 15 days away from an Arnine could you?
Man, that completely CHEWS ... when you were shown the street back in MY day, you sat HOME and "contemplated your sins" ... YOU know whut I meen. Sounds like an invite to a TERRORIST ATTACK BY A TRAIN OPERATOR for making the disgruntled work. Seen MANY a tank car and many a GRAIN car tossed sideways (ever hear of a "popcorn train?" GILFORD TRANSPORTATION INDUSTRIES HAS) ... unhappy railroaders should be sitting home watching Showtime EXTREME. Yard Dicks issued orders to shoot to maim upon eyesight. Heh.
Who needs a terrorist attack, just a stunt to maker them THINK its one. Hijack a Slant, bring it up on the Manny B and park it. Enjoy the view till the flashing lights show in the RFW.
QBMT's system does do this. On the displays as the train passes you see a yellow box above it with the train's Route ID.
That's a contradiction to what Mr. Train Dude implied in the following this thread a couple of years ago. There were shots of the crt displays that did not show any route id. These displays have since been removed from the web because of "security" concerns.
I'm happy that tower operators are no longer flying blind.
Also at that time Queens Plaza tower was also still active.
A small corretion, it does "control" the #7 line. It may clock trains and be able to see them but all moves on the #7 line are still done by 111 Tower (Queensboro to Main) and Times Square (Courthouse Sq to Times Square). As well 111 Tower still crosses trains between the divisions at QBP.
Years ago, subway cars had MARKER LIGHTS on the roof. And the TA had towers along the route. Back THEN, the tower operator sat in a bay window track side and when they saw the headlights, they'd glance at the marker lights ... "green/white, it's a D train" and set the sticks accordingly for the D train passing by their face.
Now with all that whizbang and no identifier for the train, HEADS roll ... ah, PROGRESS. :(
A T/O on the A punches for 6th avenue at 59 S/B. The TW/O has gap sheets (in fact the TW/O sitting next to him was the one who crossed him over at 145th, but didn't say that it was 1 ahead.
So the TW/O looks at his gap sheets and sees 1951 A 207 FROC, but gives the 6th Avenue lineup anyway without questioning.
Now who you blame?
But unlike 30+ years ago, when marker lights ruled as they passed towers WAY downstream of the interlock diverge zone, so they could clear you all the way home without a slipup. All I'm saying is this was NOT a problem 30 years ago, why - with all this "TECHNOLOGY" can't they tell a D from an A with 12 minutes headways? Seriously, I'd take CREDIT for smoking the quack if I had some, but WHY can't they find a train when they could 30 years ago? Don't make sense. "Productivity" should result in "enhancements," not retrenchment back to the primordial ooze. :*(
Because with 12 minute headways there is so little happening that the person who should have been paying attention let their mind wander.
It's a standard phenomenon. Boredom breeds proportionately more mistakes than the really busy periods, whether it's driving a car, air traffic control, or whatever.
I'll use that the next time people ask me why as a V/R I work busy jobs!
And DEAD zones? heh. 6th Avenue ANYWHERE except the W4 to 34 tunnel. MOST of CPW, MOST of Concourse south of Tremont - worked OK north ... pretty much MOST of the D run was you could hear command but they couldn't hear YOU, or psssssssssssssssssssssss ... Them Martha Stewart/K-Fart/SCROO the stockholders, your stock is cancelled chitboxes weren't even useful as WHEEL CHOCKS. :(
But yeah, markers made it work! Sorry to wax nostalgic, but wrong lineups were RARE ... when you breezed by a tower at 45-50, your CORRECT lineup was THERE. :(
Sad to say, I quit the TA because it wasn't fun. Looking back from NOW, it was a MEGA-giggle. :(
1) When a T/O punches his selection does the switch change at that point or does the punch somehow notify the tower of the request so the tower can change the switch.
2) Are there signs underground that tell the T/O which track goes where or does he/she learn this by experience or from a map? Further down this thread was talk of a 'D' on a signal on the D line. Does this have anything to do with my question?
3) I figured out that the lower light on a signal means diverge (yellow) or stay mainline (green). What happens when a track splits into two (a Y shape)? Is left always mainline and right always diverging, is it the other way around, or dies it vary?
Thanks
It can be both. Busy interlockings usually have tower notifacation. Layup yards and tail tracks can be automatic.
2) Are there signs underground that tell the T/O which track goes where or does he/she learn this by experience or from a map? Further down this thread was talk of a 'D' on a signal on the D line. Does this have anything to do with my question?
While small signa may exist for track workers, there are no highway type signs for T/O's. T/O's should be expected to know the routes they run on including stations and location of interlockings and where the tracks go.
The real point of a diverging signal is so that the T/O can moderate his or her speed through a turnout. A Y split track could, in theory, have no straight route at all. Many times the choice of the "straight" route seems to be totally arbitrary, but if one route has a higher speed then the others it will be the straight route.
So how does the T/O know which lineup he has? Are there lights or does he look at the switch itself?
On the old IRT signals of course, each junction head pertains to a different lineup, so on 3-way junctions like at E 180 St n/b, the T/O will still know which way the train is going. Other signals make use of the 3-light yard aspect, Y/Y/Y, when the 3rd route is into a yard or yard lead (like at 111 St-Corona w/b).
WE were expected to actually REMEMBER our lineups and where they'd pop up from out of nowhere. And no "know your lineup" signs on the walls EITHER. :)
The train operator is supposed to know the routing of the
train. If an unexpected route is encountered, the train operator,
by rule, must not accept and enter into the route without
confirming it with the tower or command center.
Fine, don't go along with it. Crawl into a bubble labelled
"Jersey Mike's Conception of the Ideal World" and close the door.
NYCT has distant signals, but I think what you mean is there
is no equivalent to Approach Medium. That is true. There has
never been such an indication, even back in the IRT days which
used "railroad-style" aspects.
If the home signal is located on a curve such that it comes
into sight at less than the service braking distance approaching
at full speed, almost always there is a repeater home signal
which is visible in time. Also, there are fairly few instances
in the system where one approaches a route divergence at speed.
Usually these points are located as one departs from a station,
or at the uphill end of a river tube.
(I don't know if this covers bridge vs. tunnel. That W train could run express on the local from 34th past Prince, but would it then stop and await a proper lineup or other information, or would it run through the tunnel without stopping until Pacific?)
IIRC the rule book is kinda vague on that one. It states that if a train operator receives a local lineup but is scheduled to run express, it will make only express stops on the local track unless otherwise told. The rule does not specify whether the T/O should call to question.
However other rules state that when a T/O receives a lineup other than what they should receive, they are to call and verify. I would guess that this applies to accepting a local lineup.
Given that there are other trains behind the one waiting for clarification in the case of a local/express mismatch going ahead seems like a good idea. Waiting more than the average headway could be bad for the entire line.
No offense to anyone on this board, but I have learned that the #7 T/Os are the biggest babies out there when it comes to express or local. :-P Yes some of them do have more sense and just take it. But I had one recently who, do to a delay was told to make local stops. He refused to move the train and called Control until he was given an express lineup.
As for bridge vs tunnel, I would question that one. It ranks right up there with 2s on the Lex, Rs through 63 St, etc - I can get back to my normal route at the expense of ticking off LOTS of people.
What about special cases (which I admit are highly unlikely), like the F between 47-50 and 34 or the E between 50 and 23?
As for bridge vs tunnel, I would question that one. It ranks right up there with 2s on the Lex, Rs through 63 St, etc - I can get back to my normal route at the expense of ticking off LOTS of people.
Not quite the same. If a Q or W is sent through the tunnel, no regular stops are skipped.
But the F still applies.
No, but they'll be pissed because of the extra TIME it takes.
Only way to get the wrong line-up s/b from 57/6 is to punch for it. That's part of Rock Ctr.
That hardly compares with being rerouted up the West Side when you need to go to the East Side.
Only way to get the wrong line-up s/b from 57/6 is to punch for it. That's part of Rock Ctr.
Okay, then, NB. (I didn't specify a direction.)
In all honesty, I don't see a problem with taking an unquestioned line-up in either direction for this case, since you can get back to your noral route without skipping any stations.
If those peering through the railfan window know which route is supposed to get which singals where then I assume the T/O knows this as well. Even if that were not true then what present and former operators have said here, that a T/O is supposed to know their lineup means that the T/O has the capacity to make things right even if they have been lined up for the wrong route. They know what the correct route is. I cannot think of an excuse for taking another route without noting it.
A T/O is supposed to be looking at the signals. If they and the switches are set improperly then the T/O should notice this and call it in. Maybe supervision will tell the T/O to go ahead anyway. Maybe they will set it up right. If this is done there will always be a conscious choice by all involved parties to do whatever was done.
There are other problems with the take whatever route approach too. Imagine a scenario where an operator takes a "point of no return" switch wrong. The operator is questioned later. I include two possible answers from two different T/O's who both got the wrong lineup
Q: At signal xxx, what did it display?
A1: As long as its not red and there's nothing in the way, I go.
A2: Green over yellow.
Q: What does that yellow aspect mean?
A1: I don't have to stop as long the path is clear and I should expect a diverging route following posted speed.
A2: A diverging route usually taken by the Y route, not the X I was on.
Q: Okay one of you stopped and the other didn't. Why?
A1: I go where you say.
A2: I stopped and called in for an explanation of this unusual episode.
Now the first T/O, do you really want him or her driving your train? #1 will take you wherever the signals safely permit regardless of whether or not thats actually where the train is supposed to go. Its true there is not sterring wheel on a train to pick which way to go but the T/O isnt without any capacity for control.
Mike ... the NYCTA does NOT operate like Amtrak. The rules you apply to the subways would get you thrown out of schoolcar on the first day. The T/O (and the CONDUCTOR) are responsible for the routing of trains in the final analysis - only recently a train was diverged at the end of a GO and ended up wrong railing through a tunnel to Queens. The CONDUCTOR bought it because they failed to pull the cord when the train went in the correct direction on the wrong track!
Please, before providing definitive information to people about how the subway system functions, LEARN how it works first? Your information (including "NORMAL" versus "diverge" for interlocking) has been consistently wrong each time ... no offense, guy - but you do NOT have correct information as to NYCTA operations and practices. :(
I've been out of the system myself for over 30 years now and things have changed ... I appreciate your knowledge of NORAC and all, but what you learned does NOT apply to NYCTA. At all.
I don't think its just the pushbutton that changes a switch, the tower gets the request then they have a switchboard so they change the switches.
2) Are there signs underground that tell the T/O which track goes where or does he/she learn this by experience or from a map? Further down this thread was talk of a 'D' on a signal on the D line. Does this have anything to do with my question?
Well there are signs that tel where the train is supposed to go by signlas coeds, yellow/green, green/yellow or possibly green/green.
Example: on the F and G at Bergen St the F is considered the main line which it has a yellow over green while the G is the opposite.
3) I figured out that the lower light on a signal means diverge (yellow) or stay mainline (green). What happens when a track splits into two (a Y shape)? Is left always mainline and right always diverging, is it the other way around, or dies it vary?
It could be neither but chances are it would vary on the line.
Look! It's a wrong line-up! At Bergen northbound, the F has a bottom yellow to go to Jay St, while the G has the bottom green to Hoyt St.
I am from the big street class and some gungho TSS' would say if you don't know your lineups they will take you out of service. Then I would say Oh good maybe they will make me Supt as the Supt does not know them either or can I make a copy of that for my hearing at Jay St for the wrong route.
They would remember I was a wiseass but not remember why and as soon as I would get a speech operating I would talk about that or the history of the F lineups with the great realignment of the sixties.
That is exactly what the AT/D in the CRC at 179 was telling everyone. If you take a wrong wroute, you're covered by that sheet of paper.
The Bergen local track feeds directly into the G towards Queens; the Bergen express track feeds directly into the F towards Manhattan. The actual F, as it exists today, switches from the local to the express north of Bergen. One would therefore expect the F to take the diverging route.
Depends on the location. Most busy areas are tower controlled, the T/O punches, and the TW/O lines up the train based on what he punched.
Other areas like terminals, Mott Avenue (4/5 at 138/GC N/B) and 33rd/Rawson on the #7 are automatic. The T/O punches express or local (or at Mott, Jerome or White Plains) at and the interlocking machines lines up the train based on the punch.
2) Are there signs underground that tell the T/O which track goes where or does he/she learn this by experience or from a map? Further down this thread was talk of a 'D' on a signal on the D line. Does this have anything to do with my question?
The D indicates the the signal is on time due to a diversion ahead. Basically it says "Be going XXX miles per hour and the next signal will clear. If you're going faster it will stay at danger and you'll have to wait till the timer runs out."
3) I figured out that the lower light on a signal means diverge (yellow) or stay mainline (green). What happens when a track splits into two (a Y shape)? Is left always mainline and right always diverging, is it the other way around, or dies it vary?
Even at a wye, there's still a "mainline" and a "diversion". Usually the mainline is determined by which is the route used for normal (or more frequent) service. In areas where the switch was added later, the mainline is usually the route that existed first.
Even though not a wye, the best I can explain the second example is Rockaway Blvd on the A line. Lefferts is considered the mainline even though the train goes to the right, and the Rockaways are pretty much a straight route. This is because the route to Lefferts existed first (as far as the Subway goes).
Some stations do indeed have these signs, showing the T/O which lineup is going to which line. I think that there's one on the northbound local at the north end of the 42ns St / 8th Ave station indicating the lineups for the C & E. I do recall seeing others.
--Mark
The E and F lines home of the wrong route have many of what I call idiot signs to remind you of your route, the F does even more forcefall things to prevent wrong routes. The D has a big sign in homeball alley at the point of no return going northbound.
I always thought the lineups in Brooklyn were much more complicated and they almost seem fatalistic about lineups and there seem to be fewer wrong routes.
1) What prevents a switch from switching when a train is almost on top of it. Does the prior signal have to be green?
When a train is in a circuit approching a home signal (and therefore switch), the interlocking machine applies a time delay to the switch. This always happens when the home signal is green. When the signal is dropped (put to danger) the tower operator must wait a certain amount of time (most places 45 sec but this really depends on the # of signals protecting a switch).
When the home signal is at danger some machines will allow the switch to be moved (although I understand this shouldn't happen at all but maybe one of our signal guys can clarify on the circumstances where this may be allowed).
Put simply, there are a number of conditions, all of which
must be true before a switch can be operated:
1) All home signals protecting movements over that switch
in any direction must be normal (displaying RED over RED).
1A) All trip arms associated with above signals must be in
the tripping position.
2) There is no train approaching the switch OR, if a train
is approaching, a time delay of at least 30 seconds
has elapsed.
3) All approach signals (controlled single-light automatic signals)
associated with the home signals are put to danger.
4) There is no train occupying a short track circuit, known as
the "Detector Circuit", which covers the turnout.
5) All other appropriate route locking is in place. E.g. if movement
of the switch would route the train into oncoming traffic,
then the appropriate home and approach signals on the
other track, in the other direction, are at danger, time
has run out if a train is approaching from the other
direction, etc.
I think this is the easy answer for folks at my level.
There is a signal a block (stretch of track long enough for a train to stop) behind the interlocking. If there is a train in that block, the switch can't be moved. If the switch is being moved, the approach signal will be red and a train running up to it at full speed would hit the stop arm and stop before getting to the switch.
It's a lot more complicated than that, but that is the level I understand and, perhaps, a level appropriate for the questioner.
Before the switch can be moved, both the home and approach
signals must all be at danger. The approach signals (there
are usually 3 or 4 of them) will clear on time as the train
approaches each one. This "proves" that the motorman has
seen the red signals and has the train under control and
at the proper speed (typical clearing speed is about 10 MPH).
This is not exactly true. If a signal is not cleared and a train approaches the home signal at stop a timer does not need to be run. Furthermore, if you have two trains running one behind another, when the first runs through the intelrocking and and signal is not fleeted the towerman can immediately enter another route. The timer is only run when a previously cleared signal is taken away without a train first taking the cleared route through the interlocking.
To display a clear signal there must be a clear route through an interlocking. You move the switches around so that you create a clear route then you are allowed to display a non-stop signal to a train.
Your question asks what prevents someone from moving a switch when a train is almost on top of it. First of all, if the switch is used in a clear route it is locked out and cannot be moved. Now lets say you clear a route, but as a train approaches you turn the signal back to red and move the switch. The train might not be able to stop and then slide into the interlocking and then into another train.
This is where timers come into play. If you take away a signal, to re-clear that signal, to move any switches involved in the route or to clear a comflicting route you must first run a timer. The timer length is designed for any approaching trains to be able to come to a stop. On railroads the run between 4-5 minutes for high signals and .5-2 minutes for dwarfs. On the NYC Subway I believe that someone said they are 45 seconds. Once the timer runs the towerman is then free to manipulate switches governed by the new conditions of the interlocking.
Older interlocking systems require one to run a timer every time you want to take away a signal, even if there are no trains in the interlocking. Systems installed after about 1930 have what is called approach locking, where the timer has to be run only when a train is in the approach block(s) to the home signal.
Note, timers do not have to be run when a train takes you clear signal and then enters the interlocking in the typical fashion. The signal will drop to stop and you are free to re-clear it at your leisure.
Here are a row of US&S dome timers at OVERBROOK tower for levers 10 to 18. Many towers will only have two timers, one for high and one for dwarf signals or one timer for each sub-section of the interlocking.
In NYCT they're not called timer, on the interlocking machine its called the Time Release feature. Timers in NYCT refer to signals that clear for a train moving at the deignated speed for the signal(s).
Holy crap, that's a long time. But yes, I stated that it was 45 seconds, but does vary, for a example on a switch protected by 2 homeballs will take longer before the time release feature allows the switch to be moved.
Older interlocking systems require one to run a timer every time you want to take away a signal, even if there are no trains in the interlocking.
East 180 tower does this as well. Don't know about others.
Yeah, if you look on the timers their rundown time is clearly labeled. Most are 4M 17S, but one is 4M 43S. The shortest is the lever 6 signal at 1M as it controls movement into and out of an MoW siding. Of course the linespeed is 70mph and the block lengths around a mile.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Posted on:7/1/03 7:18:19 AM
Due to a collapsed building wall at East 58th Street near Lexington Avenue, the 4, 5, 6, N, R & W trains are running with slow speeds through the area. We anticipate minor delays as a result.
Peace,
ANDEE
Alas yes, as normal is used in the acronym snafu. The more probing question would be is it an operational necessity. That answer is no.
I'd expect it from a line that runs trains every 90-120 seconds.
The maximum frequency for trains at Main St was 24 tph, when the line was operating at 36 tph. The currently operate only 21 tph peak out of Main St.
The major design problem with Main St is the lack of tail tracks. This increases the amount of time that approaching trains take to clear the interlocking. The fact that the interlocking is longer than most because it is a 3 track line into a 3 track terminal does not help either. The TA had the opportunity to rectify this problem a few years back but chose to make it worse, when they renovated the station.
The long time that trains take to clear the interlocking means that schedules and adherence to them must be tighter. How tight? Assume it takes about 60 seconds to clear the interlocking in either direction. That means it takes 120 for an outgoing and incoming train to clear it. The 21 tph means a 171 second headway. This implies that there is a 51 second interval when there are no trains in the interlocking. This is the total amount of "fat" in the schedule. If one divides this "fat" equally between both directions, then this implies that the trains must be within 25.5 seconds of their schedule. This assumes that the schedules are drawn avoid conflicts. NYCT schedules are drawn to the nearest 30 seconds. So, as a starter NYCT operations planning is not up to the task.
However, a team effort is required to back up trains in conga lines 111th St. First off, there are only 3 pockets at Main St. So, it is vital that garbage out be greater than garbage in. If the departing trains are delayed relative to the arriving trains the reverse will happen. Have the scheduled running times been lengthened over what the actual times should be? This has been one artifice to "improve" on time performance. However, it means that trains will wait outside terminals until a pocket clears. Does the tower quickly clear the interlocking or must departing trains and arriving wait for a lineup? Also, is the clock at Main St properly set or is it running 20 to 30 seconds late? Are new crews waiting on the platform as the train enters Main St or do they start to their position after the train has arrived? In the morning rush half the locals terminate at 111th St also in the evining rush hour half the locals terminate at Willets Pt. Are these trains clearly marked so that the empty quickly or is a lengthy fumigation required.
During my 20 odd years of taking the train to Main St, I noticed that delays getting into Main St were more likely to occur on Fridays or on days before a holiday. My guess is that the backup this coming Thursday wil be monumental.
My own experience last night illustrates operations at Main St. I entered Times Sq around 8 pm and just missed the express. I passed up a local to get the next express. Of course, the waiting train was marked as an express even though it was a local. The express arrived, marked as a local, and I got on it. The local departed. Either the T/O or C/R then announced that express service was suspended and all trains would operate as locals. The dispatcher on the platform made a similar announcement a few minutes later. I just lost around 10 minutes.
The ride progressed normally until just before 111th St. Trains were stacked getting into Main St. We slowly inched past 111th St and past Willets Point. I noticed an express just entering Willets Pt just after we left Willets Pt.
The express passed us as we headed towards Main St. As we approached the portal, I noticed there was a dead train on the outbound local track. That meant that only two tracks were operational and both were headed into Main St. Why wasn't the express swithced to the local at Willets Pt. There were two opportunities to do it there. Once that express passed Willets Pt on the express track, it had go into Main St first just to clear an exiting track from Main St. Indeed, the signal aspect for the middle track turned green on the Times Sq direction, after the express passed us.
I expected to see a Manhattan bound train on the middle track as soon as the expressed got into Main St. None came and we waited some more. We did move up a little more into the tunnel. I noticed that there was a small track fire on the outbound local track. We still waited some more.
We finally started moving but still no train had exited Main St. As we went through the interlocking I noticed that there was a train with passengers on the outging local track stopped just before the track fire. Some how this train was not routed onto the middle track to bypass both the track fire and the stuck train on the ramp. My train finally made it into Main St. I decided not to remain to see how this scenario finally played itself out.
It's seems the problem was bad back then. What did the TA do exactly that made it worse?
Yeah like wider staircases, but I don't know if that would make a difference because its aproblem all over the system. What we need are more courteous passengers.
I overheard once at Woodhaven a woman yell "I'm trying to get downstairs and catch this train, move to the right!" and she was responded with "F-k you there are more of us than you." Ah, New York.
Wider stairways are not an easy solution. If you look at the ceiling you'll notice that there are structural beams the entire length of the platform that constrain the stairways to their current width. However, more stairways is relatively easy and inexpensive. It would have also helped in unloading trains during the evening rush hour.
Unfortunately now that I think about it more staircases won't help either, as most people will go for the starcases where the exit is. This is the problem at Woodhaven/Queens Blvd when a train comes in during the evening rush, and I wouldn't say that Woodhaven suffers a lack of starcases. And people trying to get to a train will want to go down the staircase closest to the exit (if there is a train downstairs I know I have no chance making it by going 30 feet further down). Its really lose/lose I guess.
At 63rd drive, which also has a short mezzanine, it's much more civilized since the mid-station staircase is double width, and the very south end of the station is a direct-to-street exit.
At 67th it's a breeze for people exiting since it's a full size mezzanine and plenty of stairs. Well, that and many people will purposely make their express-local transfer at 71st, so the load is distributed between both directions.
Delays in getting trains out of 111th and Main Streets also cause problems in the AM rush, especially on the local where there will be a gap in service, meaning less tph over the delay time causing the lead local train to have to contend with large crowds and the trailing locals caught with strings of red signals. This too appears to be caused by scheduling problems. When it's really bad there will be three local trains bunched up coming into Junction Boulevard.
Waiting on the eventual everything-runs-bergen-express GO while they work on the upper level crossover...
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
His lives in Massachusetts and periodically comes to NYC.
He is best known here (besides his postings) for doing occasional weather reports for WCBS 880 AM.
http://wcbs880.com/bios/local_bio_glickmantodd_html/
>>>"is a tour operator?"<<<
Be more specific or email me in Private. I think, I know what you
mean, but that would only be conjecture on my part.
8-) ~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
There are probably more then two dozen Shoreline members here & about half that amount are/were qualified operators. JohnS has identified some. I assume you have some reason for asking, so I suggest you send JohnS a personal email about it.
I'll be operating at Branford this Saturday... come on by and say hello!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Personally, I'm qualified at TMNY and MATA.
I have also guest operated at: Shore Line, Seashore, CTM, BSM, NCTM, PTM, IRM, Fox River, OERM, Fort Smith, Halton County Radial, MTM (Como-Harriet), BAERA, San Jose (Kelly Park).
Jimmy
8-) ~ Sparky
Oops, left out Lou from Brooklyn. Sorry Lou, it was unintentional.
-Stef
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
8-) ~ Sparky
Mark
John
Mark
John
For a subway related day, I'm waiting for March 30th, 2004.
-Robert King
For me: September 28th, 2008. The Broad Street Line turns 80.
Phase II opened National Airport (C10) to Stadium-Armory (D08) as the Blue line. When Phase III opened the extension of the D route from Stadium-Armory (D08) to New Carrollton (D13) west bound trains to National Airport (C10) were Blue line trains and east bound trains to New Carrollton (D13) were Orange line.
The reason this configuration existed is because the curtain roll destination signs on the Rohr car did not have a sign for both terminal stations that were the same color.
In addition to this the interior strip map on the exterior National Airport (C10) destination sign only showed Blue line stations and the interior strip map on the exterior New Carrollton (D13) destination sign only showed Orange line stations. Only after the Orange line opened to Ballston (K04) and Addison Road (G03) did the destination sign show the correct color terminal station in both direction. There was no interior strip map on the Ballston (K04) exterior destination sign.
John
Mark
First Katherine Hepburn, now Buddy Hackett...
Like my mom says, "They always come in threes..." (I fear to guess who is next)
I still remember the SNL jokes made by 'em about him.
Peace,
ANDEE
If you count the entries in the Stiffs.com Dead Celebrity Pool, Bob Hope is the next major star expected to buy the farm.
Mark
Probably about 1982.
Tom
You can check his current status here:
Abe Vigoda status
Sad to say it appears to get more attention and more posts to a topic intended to have a corrrelation to trains but gets WAY OFF TOPIC.
If we were discussing Buddy Hackett''s relationship to trains, even the VW "Love Bug/Herbie" movies I loved when I was a kid, this thread would die with the quickness.
I always thought he worked for the Fifth Avenue bus line in MANHATTAN, not Brooklyn. Come to think of it though, it coulda been Brooklyns' Fifth Ave at that.
As far as the Bensonhurst address, as mentioned all the time on the show, they lived on Chauncy Street. In Bedford Stuyvesant, actually. Which, by itself is believable since there was a lot of "Irish" people living around there in the 40s and 50s. Not so for Southern Brooklyn. But the neighborhood reference was always Bensonhurst. Maybe for the perceived "comic effect" of the word "Benson-hoist".
The Bed-Stuy referent makes sense in this way too: I remember one episode where Alice mentioned she had gone shopping "down on Dekalb Avenue". The "down" part would fit if the location was Chauncy Street. From Bensonhurst it wouldn't make directional sense. And I'm not sure if it was common back then to make the trip all the way "up to downtown" for shopping. I'd figure that was more a North Brooklyn thing. Southern Brooklyn would hit the Avenues, and Kings Hwy, and 86th Street. JMO
Peace,
ANDEE
Ralph Kramden worked for the Gotham Bus Company located at 225 River Street in Manhattan.
Ralph's daily bus run (Bus No. 2969 & No. 247) took him along Madison Avenue in Manhattan.
Any notable subway scenes in the show?
Ralph mentioned on a number of episodes that he drove up and down Madison Avenue.
Not true, in one episode Ralph and Alice are argueing about, what else, money, and Ralph shouts, "You know how many times I have to drive that bus up and down Madison Avenue to make xxx dollars???"
I may not remember the dollar amount, but I remember that line distinctly.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
I was wrong though. There were two routes. NYCO #2 ran along Madison from 24th/25th to 135th, while #1 joined Madison at 42nd. The two routes were the same north of 42nd and south of 24th/25th.
In 1995 Corgi issued model # 54002, a replica of a GM 4506 (Old Look) in MACC colors as fleet # 1707. It is signed #4 Madison Avenue to Park Row & Broadway via 42nd Street.
The map is at: http://members.tripod.com/boarshevik/1940surface/
The restaurant was in the Bronx, indeed its somewhat out-of-the-way location was part of the reason why McClusky and Solazzo chose it. While no el was visible in the front view of the restaurant, trains could be heard passing during the dinner including right before the shooting.
Famous Godfather blooper: (fake) blood can be seen on McClusky's forehead before Michael fires the first shot.
Not-so-famous Godfather trivia: technically speaking, the movie is child pornography under U.S. law. The actress who played Michael's wife in Sicily appeared topless when she was only 17 years old.
Where I see a picture of her?
It's probably illegal.
The Gipper is currently #3 on Stiffs.com's list of celebrities most likely to die in 2003, behind Warren Zevon (lung cancer) and Bob Hope (100 years old).
The remainder of the top ten (one of whom's on-topic!), adjusted for those who've died this year, are:
4. The Pope
5. Johnny Oates (baseball manager, has brain cancer)
6. Madame Chiang Kai-Shek (105 years old)
7. Lady Bird Johnson
8. Carol Shields (Canadian author, has cancer)
9. Ronnie Biggs (British train robber, said to be in very bad health)
10. Barney Kessel (jazz guitarist, in bad shape after stroke)
Funny, I would have thought that Abe V. would be somewhere on that list...
Yes.
Funny, I would have thought that Abe V. would be somewhere on that list...
He's probably off the list because everybody thinks he's already dead
Acutally, he was born in 1921 (courtesy of the Internet Movie DataBase), so he was about 50 during the filming of the Godfather. He did look quite a bit older and indeed played an older character. Then again, Marlon Brando (b. 1924)was only in his late 40's during filming, yet he looked like he was at least 20 years older and of course played an elderly character.
The ultimate in actor/character age mismatches was in the Manchurian Candidate.* Angela Lansbury played Laurence Harvey's mother yet in real life was only three years older than him.
* = On-topic question: were there any subway scenes in the Manchurian Candidate? I don't remember any, but I saw it in my pre-railfan days and might not have taken particular notice of any. Much of the action did take place in New York, including a terrific chase scene in Central Park, so it's a possibility.
My guess is Abe Vigoda...might as well since his name comes up every couple of years...
Last time I saw him was at Chevy Chase's rost on Comedy Central earlier this year.
Bill "Newkirk"
Skip-stop, even though it's only two hours out of the day, will continue even after Marcy Ave is complete.
There's only 6-7 Z's to begin with in the rush hours and may look useless to some but it works [unlike the 1/9].
I can attest to it's necessity. During the 9/11 reroutes the J ran alone during rush hours on an 8 TPH headway and was PACKED like the L line.
www.newyorkish.com
Work. Shopping. Schools. Entertainment. Thanks to the new Metro Gold Line, they’re all an easy train ride away. Now local residents and visitors alike can travel by rail to Chinatown, Colorado Boulevard, Old Pasadena, Pasadena City College, the Southwest Museum and so much more.
Best of all, the Gold Line is part of the 62-station Metro Rail system. So for the first time, Pasadena and Chinatown are linked by rail with downtown LA, Hollywood, Wilshire Center, the San Fernando Valley, Long Beach and dozens of points in between.
Whether you’re a commuter wanting to skip the traffic jams, a student trying to get to class economically, or a shopper hunting for untold bargains, it’s time for you to discover Gold!
*********************
NOW WASNT THAT A NICE COMMERCIAL ? ....................LOL !!
Kewl.
Forgot the keeping-asbestos bit.
Jimmy
Will have to take some pictures, and host them on a free site.
Got 6800,6804,6806,6809...
Those four R-17's were part of a ten car train of experimental air conditioning that also failed. Of course, R-15 #6239 was the first.
Bill "Newkirk"
Of course... but if you prefer, they also come in blue & silver.
--Mark
I look forward to the rest of your construction! I'd imagine accomplishing bi-levels like at the remnants of the 3rd Ave. El or ascending/descening levels at Queensboro are quite a task! Don't forget the pink... :)
I can't wait... my el is just corner braces with strips of pine moulding for trackways :(.
--Mark
MTH is O scale; these are HO
I suspect that, with some work, you could modify them to sit at the proper height, although it might involve repowering.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Jimmy
Is your system outside, or you just put it out there for the photos?
--Mark
My two layover tracks on the other table are also full.
My underground / open cut Stillwell Terminal is getting full :)
--Mark
--Mark
I was thinking a kind of pre-Pre-metro system, similar to Seattle's bus tunnel. They already have an ETB system, so it would seem obvious that maybe a few of those lines should be buried where they go throught the city. The 1, 3, and maybe 4 busses could be buried under 3rd Ave, thereby eliminating traffic related delays. Eventually an LRT could be run right through the 1, with steps taken to keep the 3 and 4 busses operating through the tunnel as ETBs. The same could be done for the north south routes on Main st, they too could be buried eventually. I'm not sure if Dayton will ever need a heavy rail system, they just don't seem to be that big, but the system should be built with IND or so specifications, so that it can later be upgraded to a wholely subsurface subway when traffic density overwhelms even the subway-LRT system.
But this would be a way to head for that system, start small and grow their bus tunnel into an LRT, then finally into a full heavy rail subway.
I agree with the LRT idea. (HRT seems a long way off, given the medium densities.)
The Third Rail has an article on this travesty: http://www.rapidtransit.net/net/thirdrail/0007/dayton.htm
It's called "light" because it can mix with traffic, significally lessening the cost for complete grade separation. They actually weigh quite a bit.
It isn't synonymous with trolley, and it means what it says. The trains are lighter in weight, and shorter, than fully-fledged EMUs. They therefore can safely use a more lightly engineered track; they can go up steeper gradients and round sharper curves; the stations can be shorter; speeds may be lower (though NYC subway speeds are pretty low anyway!) though acceleration may be livelier. For all these reasons they should be cheaper to construct than heavy-rail rapid transit - though that is not always the case in practice.
I guess that by "trolley" (or streetcar or tram) you mean that the rail vehicles run on the street. To be "LRT" they do not necessarily have to include any on-street running. I've never been on the Hudson-Bergen so I don't know if it runs on street at all, but the Newark City Subway doesn't, and neither does the Docklands Light Rail in London.
It sure does.
Peace,
ANDEE
Mark
Trolleys are a subset of light rail, named for the wheel which rolls along the wire which provides electric power. Typically the name trolley evokes the image of a single non articulated vehicle operated on streets. In most of the rest of the world, particularly where pantographs are used for power pickup, they are called trams. "Light rail vehicle" is a more modern name for a tram, particularly when more than one is connected in multiple unit operation.
The "light" in light rail does not refer to the weight of the vehicles, but that it is light duty operation as opposed to a regular rail line. Typically light rail vehicles are narrow enough, and the trains are short enough and take power from overhead lines so that it is possible to operate them on a street, even if in a given operation they have a dedicated ROW. They are based on the designs used for street running trams in Europe which originated as horse drawn streetcars. "Heavy" rail is descended from steam railroad operations with a dedicated ROW and longer, wider trains.
Of course one can always point to exceptions. The SIRT is certainly a lighter duty rail system than most LRV operations, but because of its railroad origins is a heavy rail operation.
Tom
Cheers and 73,
PJ Dougherty
W2IRT/WPXV367
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.41 Now Available!
Admittedly a full heavy rail subway is almost out of the question, there is nothing like the population density to support it outside the very center of the CBD. But an LRT system, modeled on Portland or Karlruhe systems might be a good idea, both of those are moderately sized towns that either started with an exsisting Interurban system or with nothing to form a very effective transit system, both of which are still growing. If anything the two cities show that mass transit is in no way limited to large cities with subways and elevateds carrying tens of thousands of people per minute around the city, that LRT or large tram operations can be very successful in such a setting. I just thought that with those two cities doing so well with their systems, perhaps another city of similar size and placement, Dayton, might do well with a new LRT line.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Switches are pre-made, and placed in-service during fantastically expensive (due to massive number of buses and station personnel giving direction on overtime) 55 hour shutdown, lasting from Friday to Monday morning. You've had some of those on the outer portion of the line during the past year. That's basically done, except for punchlist and removals.
-Stef
-Stef
-Stef
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
1091-1100
I think you mean 1001-1100.
I've don't their 13 mile each way trip to Moscow with #2317 a 4-6-2.
They have three operating engines, one a yard 0-6-0. One of the other two may be in their shop (steamers require a lot of PM work).
#261 is a Northern S-3 4-8-4 (and you guys thought I only knew about rt stuff )
BTW, next month I'll be there for a couple of baseball games & a trolley ride.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Word to the wise: Look at a company's books TWICE before choosing to do business with them. Lowest price is not always the best. Just ask Flxible!
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Amtrek's new Service Guarantee - the first of its kind in the industry - is unconditional. That's right. There is no fine print! We promise that your trip will be a good experience. Of course, we don’t guarantee that everything will be perfict, only that your travel experience will be pleasurable. Your three-hour business trip may include an unexpected six-hour mechanical breakdown outside of Bridgeport, Connecticut. However, we promise you'll have a great time waiting for the rescue engine to arrive. Onboard toilets may be clogged with other passengers' droppings, but we promise you'll find that to be a memorable experience.
Will you get a refund if your trip is less than satisfactory? Actually, no. We will issue a voucher redeemable for future Amtrek travel. But vouchers will only be issued if your experience is less than enjoyable. And it WILL be enjoyable. We guarantee it. If you do feel the need to persist in your stubborn and unwarranted quest for compensation, we’ll gently remind you how enjoyable your trip actually was, even though you may not have realized it at the time. That's our promise to you.
This site is SO funny. Please check it out and post your favourites.
Hooray, there is hope!
From: http://amtrek.net/news/index.html
But can state the difference between the three styles of BMT Standards and as well as all other pre-war subway equipment ?
Bill "Newkirk"
There were three types? Gee, thought they all looked the same....
Well.......different roof lines, sign boxes, ceiling fans etc etc.
Bill "Newkirk"
Who cares about Standard? I want to know if she can tell the difference between the SD40-2s from 1972, 1980 and the later rebuilds from SD45s. Can she tell a GP50 phase 1 from a GP50 phase 2? Or how about an M2 from an M4 and M6? Now that would be trivia for a Railfan, not subway buff!
John
If you check out alt.binaries.pictures.rail usenet group, you'll see a couple very regular posters (who take some darn good photos) are ladies.
New Speonk Station on other side of road
Speonk Yard
Old Speonk Stationhouse
Westhampton
One day the digging when too deep and hit an underground water spring. The company tried to pump the water out but was it was too much water pump out. The pit area got completed filled in with water within 12 hours. In the pint was left a crane and 3 railroad boxcars.
The area as I remembered, looks like a beach with white sand with a road and rail ties leading into the water. This was the only area to go into the water since the surround area was a steep drop right into the water. If you swim to the center of the lake and use a diving mask, you can see the crane and the 3 boxcars, which is about 200 feet down in crystal clear water. During the winter, the water doesn’t freeze up. Only a thin layer of ice around the edges is formed with a light fog above the water. And if the weather is calm with no wind, you can actually see the water flow in the center of the lake where the blowout occurred.
Paul
-Stef
Would that have anything to do with my seeing at least three R-40M trainsets on the Q today, and at least one on the N?
But does Concourse really need more R-68s, or is the TA trying to get in on the excellent maintenance there by sending them more? Concourse R-68s always seem to be shiny and clean while CIs look like hell. I couldn't read the rollsigns on one particularly bad set!
Jim Fish
Albuquerque, NM
John
June 30, 2003
July 01, 2003
Below is a sample photo.
Also, nice underground station pics. How did you get them to be so sharp? It looks like some of the pics were taken in low light situations and would come out blurry.
The train with the orange Q had the rollsign set wrong. It should have been a yellow Q.
For the underground pics I used ISO 200 and a shutter speed of 1/25 for still photos and 1/80 for action shots. The G3 really surprised me when I saw that the photos came out.
Would that be on the front end going the other way, could that screw up the riders?
Fat chance.
Now another reason why the Brighton line is preffered by a margin of 4 to 1 over the What?-Beach line.
I liked the slants at Ocean Avenue too - pity about the graffiti on the station, but I guess you couldn't masnage to climb up and scrub them off before taking your pictures (8-) .
All photos taken within the last two weeks have been with a Canon ProShot G3. Most photos taken previous to that were taken with a Toshiba PDR-M71.
my website: http://www.railfanwindow.com
Hopefully tomorrow I'll get out tere and take some. The car hunt has kept me a little on the quiet side as far as pics go lately.
---Choo Choo
Please email me at my other email address: brightonexpdavid@yahoo.com if you interested. Only hardcore and serious people may apply, most likely I will do this and you need 1 to 2 days off from work. I will reply back to you ASAP with the contact and more details.
Again, you have to be prepared for this, no exits and reentries allowed in the subway system.
Also they went through NYCT in giving us permission to sleep in the car, if needed. Bring a pillow but no blanket.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wouldn't that make the feat much harder, with weekend and holiday schedules?
It is not as much fun as it sounds. Even train buffs will say "no mas" after a while.
Peace,
ANDEE
I can go 8 hours without using the restroom...
I can eat Dunkin Donuts' on the train, have a Nutrament for lunch, and postpone dinner...
I can get refreshments (full of caffiene - it works for me) at newsstands...
I'm not doing anything really important...
I'll even wanna ask them where THEY get off doing subway documentaries..
::coughcoughTHAT'S MY THANGcoughcough::
I can go 8 hours without using the restroom...
I can eat Dunkin Donuts' on the train, have a Nutrament for lunch, and postpone dinner...
I can get refreshments (full of caffiene - it works for me) at newsstands...
I'm not doing anything really important...
Does anyone think I stand a chance? It'll only work if I take advantage of the (A) Rockaway Park Thru Trains. Do you have to stop at every station or does an express run count? What about skip-stop? And unexpected unnannounced battery-runs?
I think I may just take you up on this one...
The idea is to ride all the lines, hit all 468 stations WITHOUT leaving the system.
This harkens back to the days of the token (actually only a couple of months ago). You drop the token in the turnstile and then you ride the entire system in the shortest amount of time possible.
No shortcuts, no buses. This is a subway only situation (except where the bus replaces the train down in Coney Island).
Kids these days - always wanting the easy way.
http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/
What record would you expect to find? Every time service patterns change, a timer is added, or track is permanently removed, any trip after the event would not be directly comparable with an earlier event. That is the same reason there is no world record for running a marathon race. Because of differences between race courses, and even weather on the same course from year to year, no meaningful comparisons can be made except between those on the same course at the same time.
Tom
For the ones who take them up on it - you might get your name mentioned and maybe even your picture in an article back in page 50.
If you have been following some earlier postings, the print media has been trying to get anyone to participate in interviews, documentaries and such.
My comment was what should we charge per hour for our "expert" assistance to the media? $200? $350?
If anyone wants to do the whole system for the NY Times - you have my moral support.
Wanting to be paid to do a grand tour?? That certainly shows that you are a faux NY subway rail fan. This is on a par with a Kamikaze pilot turning down an assignment because the retirement pay and medical benefits are insufficient. :-)
Tom
There is no "law" involved. If they are setting it up, they get to set the rules.
Tom
Think I'm calling them.
Not according to Petula Clark.
Look again, Jeff, she does not say one cannot sleep in the subway (which we would call an underpass), but the one person the song is addressed to should not do so because much more comfortable accommodations are available.
Tom
Before BigDig gets out, YES! they have a permit!!
You better believe it, onnakowana this ain't just any camera crew:
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
WHAT sort of harmful "appearance" can a dear _mouse make?
Especially our good kind _mouse. :)
WHAT sort of harmful "appearance" can a dear _mouse make?
Furthermore, if the same gal is now the Mrs... I don't think "Appearances" was much an issue, CL..
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's as long as at least three people actually apply....I wish they would throw in some prizes or money or rewards or something. I think that in the end, this will be about a 5 to 10 minute segment in a one hour tv show. Hardly seems worth it. If, OTOH, it will set a Guiness World Record (which I highly doubt), then that makes it a little more attractive.
Why?
1. I can't use my RFM(I have a disability but I can handle these types of things).
2. I can't use a MetroCard(At least a MetroCard would be fine)
3. I am not used to rideing subways late at night(My Dad do ride the subway around 12 AM to work).
4. I won't use a bathroom if it's Relly Dirty(Tends to be like that in subway bathrooms,I think).
5. No meal stops(I need to eat at least once or two times a day)
6. My parents would think I am nuts for doing it.(Maybe but they won't let me do it anyway)
7. Might come back smelling bad
8. Might get a headache
That describes the bathrooms in the subway. Bathroom at Boro Hall has nothing that works, and the bathroom at Main St features a toilet bowl with nothing but BROWN WATER. Totally disgusting sh*t.
Bet they wanna do it THIS month.
Gena Konstantinakos from the NY Times will be at the next NY Div ERA meeting this Friday 7/11 at 7 PM. Location for those who need it is 101 Murray St between Greenwich St. and West St.. There is a $5 admission charge for non-members.
For those people who cannot attend the ERA meeting due to religious reasons, please email Gena at: gena@nytimes.com. Serious inquiries only please, the filming will take place VERY SOON (like within 2 weeks from today) and will be aired nationally on a cable station available on your Digital Cable provider, DirecTV, or dish network.
Chambers 1/2/3/9 is the closest stop, right?
I am currently attempting to reach Gena via email/phone.
Thanx.
-Nick
As far as having an attachment to Brooklyn, I don't. I was born, raised and still live in DA BRONX.
Tough!!! :)
However, it does explain one thing -- why the intersection of Jamaica, Fulton and Broadway became a major transit hub. It was and is the site of one of the four passes through the terminal morraine, at a time when natural barriers were much more formidable than today.
I believe the battle for New York isn't better known because the U.S. lost. After that loss, however, Washington realized he couldn't fight the British head on, shifted to gurrella war and went from success to success.
As it involved the Revolutionary War, that would have been jumping the gun quite a bit!
One of the things Gallagher did in his spare time was coordinate walking tours of the Bay Ridge Branch of the Long Island Rail Road. I never was able to tag along for any of those, but did hear about his exploits in that area. Most of the local Brooklyn & Queens papers had sizable Obits on him. Gallagher also was instrumental in getting space for the HARP* group at Floyd Bennett's Hanger 'B'.
*Historic Aircraft Restoration Project
"TV star puts a Highland spring in the step of passengers as she hands out water in new Tube promotion
By Tom James
Gail Porter hands out Highland spring water
More than 300,000 free bottles of water will flow in a Tube holiday giveaway this month.
Tube users will get a taste of Scotland with Highland Spring, which offers the chance to win a spa break there.
Yesterday TV presenter Gail Porter, voted one of the sexiest women in the world, kicked off the launch - handing out bottles at Oxford Circus.
It will continue over the next four weeks at three other busy central London stations - Liverpool Street, Piccadilly Circus and Victoria."
-Robert King
On the other hand, we had people saying that the mta was stupid for getting rid of redbirds. I distinctly recall someone even saying that Rust and corosion can be scrapped, and the birds could stay.
The # of people liking redbirds far outnumbered the # who favored 142's. I don't know how many times we had to hear about the 'deadbirds'.
-Robert King
R-62s still have GE SCM controls, which are all-electric but not electronic and utilize cams.
David
-Robert King
David
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
PS. This picture was definitely taken in the '70s: Davisville station has its original tiles. You can also see that the expanded mezzanine hasn't yet been built and the haircut on the kid in the front window of the train's a dead givaway.
-Robert King
I just wonder why London Underground can't or won't put windows in its cab doors to let passengers see out the front of the trains. I mean, the train operators don't sit in the middle of the cab, so nobody would be looking over their shoulders.
With respect to the lack of railfan windows on the London Underground, you could argue that it would be possible for them to have them on the subsurface stock. The tube stock is very small and that full width cab is needed otherwise there just wouldn't be any space for the train driver. Also, London Underground is an all OPO system (the last hold out was the Northern line until the 59 stock was retired several years ago) and the full width cab is needed for that purpose.
-Robert King
In my observation, drivers don't leave their seat and cross the cab when the platform is at the opposite side to their driving posiotion. There is CCTV, with monitors that they can see out of the appropriate side window (depending on which side the platform is) from the driving position. If that sounds unsafe (in terms of the risk of catching people in the doors and dragging them), remember that LU, unlike the NYC subway, has staff on the platforms at all busy stations.
Although there has to be a full-width cab so that the driver can see across to both sides, there could be clear windows between the car and the cab, at least on the non-driving side, which would provide a raifan view. The first-generation DMUs introduced on British Rail in the 1960s had that kind of view, which was much appreciated by railfans; the current generation DMUs do not, sadly.
I think the real reason we don't have RFWs on the London Underground is just tradition. We've never had them.
I thought maybe it was for security reasons, that maybe LU didn't want people looking into the cab. I thought maybe the earliest stock might have had them. Tube and Subsurface trains could definitely have a window in the cab (J) door. That's what our transverse-cab equipped cars have, although on most R44s, R46s and R68s, the window seems to be blacked out. It would be nice to have them on London Underground stock too.
London used steam engine hauled trains on surface lines in the beginning and early EMUs had their electrical equipment right behind the cab. Even on tube lines, the City and South London (currently part of the Northern) and Central(only for a short time) used electric locos. And the small dimension of tube stock meant even more space taken by the equipment on early EMUs.
The first candidates of RFW would have been the 1938 stock(tube) and the Q stock(surface), unless District Railway's early electric stock already had small cabs. Someone correct me if I'm wrong about this.
I've never seen a London Underground train with a window in the cab door, but I had a few opportunities to ride in the cab, when I was a teenager. RFW ride! That was.
I bet that was a great ride. Do you think if enough folks suggest it, LU might specify cab door windows on the next order of Tube or Subsurface stock?
AEM7
There are no windows on cabs of high speed bullet trains though. Safety measures? Maybe...
None left on the system, perhaps, but there is a pair at Halton.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
-Robert King
;-)
There isn't any reason why they can't have red trains now, now that London Underground insists on painting the trains again. The unpainted aluminum carbodies certainly came and then went with the newer trains and the refurbishment programs. I wouldn't mind seeing the 1938 stock paint scheme applied to the 95 stock.
-Robert King
-Robert King
That's a very nice picture you have of the train, too.
-Robert King
-Robert King
How about a tot of Rum in the winter! :-)
Tom
My intended destination in the Bronx was the 161st Street station, so I got off at 86th to wait for the 4, and I caught a pic of the 5 train as it left. While I was waiting, I saw, not one, but TWO trains of R142A's running on the southbound #4. The car numbers I have for those trains are: 7666 and 7705 -- they were on different trains. Then, finally, a train of R142 cars on the northbound 4. My intentions were to record the automated announcement as the train arrived at the 161st Street station. But just as it was about to do so, the conductor announced that the train's next stop after 161 would be Burnside Avenue. That basically ruined it.
Then I wanted a pic of a train of 1100-series R142's with Yankee Stadium in the background. That went off better. Then, off to the downtown D train platform I went. Took a downtown D train to 34th Street for the R68 sign. After a brief stop at the Manhattan Mall, I went Q-R-M-3-1 to South Ferry (I changed my mind while I was on the R at Prince St). At the Canal Street M station, I noticed that the platform-level crossover has been ripped out, with a hole in the wall (and floor) in its place. Used the new South Ferry exit and walked through Downtown and up along the Hudson River to the World Financial Center. Then, Ground Zero. The last time I was there was about 21 months ago, three days before that terrible day. I saw the PATH station that they're building down there, and the steel beam cross. Then, on to the E train for the trip home.
Back when your old site was up, I used to spend hours playing around with the signs. :-D
About the R142s running on the 2 and 5, you'll see a train most of the time where the map is for a different line. The 2 and 5 both share the same yard (why couldn't they put both the 2 and 5 strip maps together as one?)
First, let me point out that my other site, Transit Sounds Millennium (TSM) has been up for a while (before I left for California). It's located at http://blake.prohosting.com/~tptsm. I'm planning on putting any new transit pictures pages here temporarily until new web space is granted me (I'm looking for something with at least 100 megabytes). Once that's available, I'll start uploading files there, piece by piece, and the temporary pages (@ Prohosting) will be moved to their "permanent" locations.
I acquired a USB Memory Stick reader/writer and a 128 MB Memory Stick which will aid and, hopefully, accelerate the uploading process, so much that I can upload the entire site in one session (My whole site [excluding the Transit Sounds] "weighs" 67 megabytes; no floppy disk-swapping with the Memory Stick). I'll just need to find a place where the computers can access the Memory Stick, either directly or through a USB port.
Anyway, The next set of pictures is up now, (I've put a "Transit Pictures" near the top of the page). It'll be number 42, and I just finished a roll, which will become number 43. Just to let you know, I've renumbered the Transit Pictures pages, eliminating the (in my opinion) annoying "10.2" type call numbers.
Hopefully, it should all be up by the first week of September.
I'm using my redirect URL, http://transfer.to/rmmarrero for this.
First of all, the sight of all the R62A's on the Flushing line discouraged me, as I saw only four Redbirds from TSQ to Main St, including the one I rode back to 74th St. - Broadway from Main St. I rode the express and enjoyed the ride.
Our R62A express arrived on Track M, as I got off to see the "Next Train" signal lit up pointing to the R62A on Track 1. Some arriving passengers filled the train on track M, as a few minutes later, a car cleaner walked the length of the train saying "NEXT TRAIN" and pointing to the train on Track 1. I was already on Track 1, however about 2 minutes later, the train on Track M leaves, as I see some trailing passengers (is that going to a yard or to TSQ?) in the last two cars. A minute later, a Redbird on Track 2 arrives. And some of the T/A workers notified all of us on Track 1 that the Redbird was the next train to go. Some disgruntled passengers, as we all walked up to the mezzanine to get the Redbird, which left two minutes later.
What is the explanation of this slip-up? Are these common?
BTW - you didn't have to go up to the mezzanine to cross over. If you had walked to the north end of the station you could have simply walked over to the other platform.
Considering that the headway on #7 trains is so close missing one train is not that much of a problem.
Didn't KNOW Main St. had 1...
I've always done the stepover at the north end...
That switcheroo pattern ALSO happens on the 7 at the TSQ end.
The r62a was still toasting it's english muffin.
Rusty runs well and warmly (even on an empty stomach!)
Apparently, a tractor-trailer at least 13 feet high, tried unsuccessfully to go underneath the elevated 207th st/IRT station, and the whole load of grapes was ripped apart. According to signs, the posted height was only 11'0".
Michael
Wash, DC
Queens Blvd over Sunnyside yard: 12'6"
Roosevelt Ave and the following: 53, 56, 61/LIRR (12' 6"), 70 (BQE), 72, 75, 82, Elmhurst, 94, Junction (12' 4"), National St (near 103rd st), before and after 108th st, and top of hill by Willets Point/126th st.
The known lowest structure is on N/B Westchester Ave at Brook Ave: 10'8" clearance
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/wabc_070203_subway.html
I think 600VDC has a short in the optical circuts.
And as far as the letter vs. package thing goes, Channel 7 called it a "letter" in the breaking news e-mail alert, and then changed it to "package" on the web site's full story. So, the folks at the Mickey Mouse channel got mixed up as well. :-) Nice to know I'm not the only mixed up person working in the broadcast industry.
Hmm, the substance turned out to be corn starch... maybe someone had adult diaper rash :^)
Rim shot!
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/wabc_070203_subway.html
Suspicious Package Disrupts Downtown Subway Service
JULY 02ND, 2003
Police are responding to a suspicious package found on a subway near Canal Street, and there are major service disruptions in Lower Manhattan as a result.
A white envelope containing an unidentified white powder was found by some passengers in a duffel bag on a downtown train on the No. 1 and 9 lines at 9 a.m. Wednesday, law enforcement sources told NY1. Passengers were evacuated at Canal Street, and police, firefighters and hazardous materials crews responded to the scene.
At about 10 a.m., a fire official told NY1 that the package tested negative for chemical and radiological agents, with biological tests still pending. An hour and a half later, the police presence at the subway station suddenly escalated, but authorities have not said whether anything dangerous was found in the package.
As a result of the ongoing investigation, No. 1 and 9 trains are suspended from 14th Street to South Ferry in both directions. No. 3 trains are also suspended between 34th Street and Chambers Street. No. 2 trains are running on the No. 5 tracks from 149th Street-Grand Concourse to Nevins Street.
Several roads around the subway station have also been closed to traffic.
Peace,
ANDEE
(sorry for the cut and paste, NY1s site is overloaded)
Suspicious Packages Found In Lower Manhattan; Subway Service Disrupted
JULY 02ND, 2003
Police are responding to two suspicious packages in Lower Manhattan Wednesday. The first was found on a subway near Canal Street, causing major service disruptions, and the second was discovered more than two hours later on the street near City Hall.
A white envelope containing an unidentified white powder was found by some passengers in a duffel bag on a downtown train on the No. 1 and 9 lines at 9 a.m. Wednesday, law enforcement sources told NY1. Without being specific, the sources also said the letter has a message.
Passengers were evacuated at Canal Street, and police, firefighters and hazardous materials crews responded to the scene.
At about 10 a.m., a fire official told NY1 that the package tested negative for chemical and radiological agents, with biological tests still pending. An hour and a half later, the police presence at the subway station suddenly escalated, but authorities have not said whether anything dangerous was found in the package.
As a result of the ongoing investigation, No. 1 and 9 trains are suspended from 14th Street to South Ferry in both directions. No. 3 trains are also suspended between 34th Street and Chambers Street. No. 2 trains are running on the No. 5 tracks from 149th Street-Grand Concourse to Nevins Street.
Several roads around the subway station have also been closed to traffic, causing heavy delays.
More than two hours after the first package was discovered in the subway, police officers began blocking pedestrians from walking around the area around Chambers and Centre streets, near City Hall. Police sources tell NY1 access to the area is being restricted because investigators have found a second suspicious package.
The sources have not revealed exactly where the package was found, or what it contains, but they said they are taking the threat seriously because it was found so soon after the first package.
Check back with NY1.com for the latest on this breaking story.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
The car, which belonged to a Daily News reporter on assignment, was examined by the bomb squad and was found to be clean, said police, who were questioning the caller.
Lemme guess, the Daily Snews is testing NYPD's readiness for a possible terrorist attack?
Peace,
ANDEE
There is no reason to worry.
The war on terrorism is over.
Osama bin Laden is dead.
al-Qaeda has been destroyed.
The war on terrorism is over.
We won.
Case closed.
Instead of running into a corner and piddling yourself every time a camel sneezes in the Rub-al-qyat, marching off on a 'crusade' to rid the world of all the evildoers, or pretending that there is no problem when there clearly is one, what about co-opting those people that currently threaten us? You can't fight Al-queda on our turf, by the time they're across the ocean 90% of their problem is over, you can't fight them overseas in their host countries, thats like trying to smash a fly in a glass house with a hammer. They live off the suffering incumbant in most middle eastern countries for recruits. You just feed them, to develop the infrastructure, and ensure that a regime like the Taliban never rise again, which, provided the people are fed and such, it shouldn't.
Instead we've embarked upon an unwinnable crusade against the middle east in general, all we're doing is inflaming it.
Revalations without any evidence, but no matter.
Maybe you could reveal the numbers in next week's lottery drawing?
Can anyone tell me what is wrong with this service alert on the MTA done by dimwits webstite?
I'd say that Randy Kennedy is at least a semi-buff. His writings show a degree of enthusiasm that you wouldn't get from someone writing about the subway merely as an assigned duty.
Peace,
ANDEE
(Just kidding.)
But I'd rather embarass the suits at the MTA in public, as you can see from my write-ups after I attend the public hearings, instead or terrorizing NYC for this stupidity.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The station was designed for the 1939 World's Fair. The wide platforms for the express and outbound local were to handle the large crowds coming to the fair each afternoon. On the other side, the extra length station allowed two or three trains to load at the same time. At theat time, both BMT and IRT (and the 2nd Ave. El) served the Flushing line and there was no free transfer at Queensboro Plaza between IRT and BMT, so fair goers returning to the city had to get on the right train. With multiple trains in the station together, there was no one just standing on the platform blocking the flow of foot traffic to one train while waiting for their train to arrive.
Tom
--Mark
I think you meant the MVMs. Because buying your metrocard before the game won't help solve crowding at the turnstiles.
Yawnkee Stadium.
Diamondvision Redbirds.
Diamondvision Redbirds.
That purple diamond might signify a modification of some sort...Some of the R62A singles from Livonia have a green circle sticker next to the number plate.
It appears that the CG has come to its senses and exempted the SI Ferry from these requirements. The odd thing is that the private operators who run smaller boats (600 or fewer vs. 6,000 passengers) DO have to comply.
Here's a link to the story.
S.I. Ferry Riders Get Security Break
Mark
Chip
With that many during the rush hour it could take all day to get to/from Manhattan.
No.
The 3rd Ave El did not use the bridge on Third Ave. The El turned east on 129th St and then crossed the Harlem at 2nd Ave, along with the 2nd Ave El, which had a straight shot.
WHAT VIDEO??! :o
Someone had to pick up the slack.
Time: 7:30 PM Tommorrow
Location: Dekalb Ave/Flatbush Ave station, full time mezzanine area
Bonus points given for those who wear NY Yankee baseball shirts or caps. LOL.
Meet us by the ONLY S/A booth, and don't be late, we need to catch Mark W. working on his N train pulling in at 1937 hours going towards the rat hole.
But if I could make it I'd wear my Mickey Mantle jersey :)
--Mark
Have a happy 4th of July weekend everyone, I'm out.
Oh by the way, Fred is taking the BRIGHTON line to Coney Island????Well I assume your photos will have "N" on them. How much "Sea Beach" can one ride. Oh wait a minute, this is Fred.
I'd rather not post my AIM ScreenName directly on SubTalk, so here is what I propose: If all of you email me your AIM ScreenNames, and include your SubTalk handle, then I will compile a master list of ScreenNames, to be emailed to everyone who has submitted their ScreenName.
How does that sound?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
add me, im AEM7902
Not true.
If AOL is causing internet programs to crash, then AOL is what should be removed.
Having AOL is the height of stupidity.
if you're talking about the mirc issue from the other thread, actually mirc was crashing when i was connected to the 'net via a college ethernet drop with winsock 2. mirc32 is buggy, because it uses MFC 4.0.
Having AOL is the height of stupidity.
aol is a dialup provider that works and is cheap. internet service in the uk is very different from internet service here, and i have not yet seen a good service provider over here. you have basically three classes of providers: the national chains such as mindspring, aol, and others, and they all require proprietary software which slows down the service and your computer. then there is the low cost providers such as netzero that are slow and annoying and have ads. then there are the local providers that have ppp access points (the real way with minimal software overhead) but they don't have national numbers for you to dial in from anywhere.
with all the pluses and minuses, aol still come out on top. until i find a provider that provides a decent ppp drop and is as cheap as aol while providing nationwide access, i'm not moving.
aem7
No, they don't. I know that while they offer proprietary software, it isn't mandatory, one can use Dial-up Networking. That option is not avaiable with AOL, which also costs $1.95 more and its required software is more slow and bloated. All of the other services (except for the ad-based services like NetZero) cost $21.95.
i might sign up for a trial account.
Mindspring isn't available anymore, it merged with Earthlink. But Earthlink allows it. Also AT&T WorldNet.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
BTW, I'm BOARshevik. I think it's ridiculous to hide one's AOL screen name.
That mIRC always crashed for you is your computer's problem.
but if the room then closes down and then the next person to sign on automatically become ops. what you mention about the rooms that are permanently acephalous only works on certain servers. it is just not standardized and generally crap. aol enforces the fact that a room is acephalous. much better. i'm a republican, even for my chat preferences.
That mIRC always crashed for you is your computer's problem.
i don't care -- it doesnt work on my platform, and aol works on my platform. therefore mirc is crap and aol is good. my platform is a given -- it is part of the specification.
aem7
No, it isn't. I don't want my E-mail address harvested for spam purposes. If you want my e-mail address, you can ask for it. I post my e-mail when I need to.
how am I supposed to email you all of the screen names.....?
You can IM me. I NEVER sign off.
No, it isn't. I don't want my E-mail address harvested for spam purposes. If you want my e-mail address, you can ask for it. I post my e-mail when I need to.
how am I supposed to email you all of the screen names.....?
You can IM me. I NEVER sign off.
I don't think its ridiculous, maybe people have certain reasons for not putting up their e-mail addresses [I usually do not].
WMATAGMOAGH announces a scheduled chat in that room every week on Saturday. I never come because I think a Saturday night chat and I either forget or have something better to do. Odd, because I used to be in charge there and set up Saturday as the official day!
The last time I was there there was a good crowd.
BTW, did we meet last week?
As to who shows up, there is a very small core group, and then a mix of BusTalkers and SubTalkers which changes from week to week.
I don't understand, what exactly should I change the caption to say? Also, is it ok for me to post the "group photo" from this evening here? (the photo I haven't posted yet...)
Peace,
ANDEE
--Mark
Jimmy
Jimmy
Here's proof Fred can smile. Even on the Brighton :).
Jimmy :)
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Cuddly... lovable... Fred, how many years has it been since you looked in a mirror? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Whimpering :)
So that I can torture him about how great my Brighton Line is compared to his Sea Beach.
All what's left and to complete Fred's trip was to ride the Brighton Line for a few minutes. Sure enough, a Q diamond express train pulls in and Fred and I were off towards Kings Highway. Fred said it was getting late, so we settled on getting off at Newkirk Ave. I showed Fred the scaffolding beams holding up the station, and the stickers on the beams that indicate they come from Germany. We went outside fare control so that I can show Fred something that he will NEVER see on the Sea Beach line, the BRT plaque, installed in 1908, introducing the current Brighton Line. (We all know here that the Brighton line in 1908, used the Shuttle ROW, turned onto Fulton St to Park Row in Manhattan.)
We took the next train northbound beacuse I had to go back to Atlantic Ave for a few minutes there. We discussed some poilitcal and off-topic matters, said goodbye at Atlantic (I got off the train while Fred continued his way back to his hotel in Manhattan.). Time for me to go shopping at Pathmark at Atlantic Center at that point, then next Q train back to Newkirk and home.
I had a spendid time with you Fred, nice to meet you. Looking forward to be on the first N train over the bridge in February, 2004 with you and the rest of the Subtalk gang, (after the first D trains to Brooklyn earlier that morning).
R40M N 4494
R40M Q 4542
R68 FAS 2916
R40S Q 4344
R68 Q 2837
You can be sure I'll be there!
Great write up.
I will be a real Subtalk party on a Saturday night, midnight at 6th Ave/34th st, Downtown platform. Separate ways to kill some time or hanging out at a pre-determined stop, then back at 5:30 AM, at Dekalb Ave for first N train over the Bridge.
Hope there is not much snow to slow us down on that day.
Are you planning a trip out for it?
Great trip report; I've been waiting to hear how the rest of the evening played out. I'll get some photos posted soon...
I wonder if you'll be around for the first "N" train over the Manhattan Bridge in perhaps almost 18 years. I'm sure that you'll be happy and I plan to a an "N" train over the Manhattan Bridge when the time comes. Maybe the once great Sea Beach line will return to its former status.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
No you are incorrect:
When regular "N" service is restored in February 2004. It will be the first time regular "N" service has run over the Manhattan Bridge since September 1990.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Do they use a redbird as an additional car for the 11 car sets often? Or was this one being carried along for the ride?
Also to note, On the Q - both the Diamond and Regular - I saw what appeared to be the R40 (not Shovelnoses) and R42s. What happened to the R68/R68As?
Perhaps if you put spaces between the bracket and the characters in question...
< Q >
Hey, it works!
I said R40/R42. One or the other.
When did the N become all slant? I remember riding an N R68/A (I forgot the number) maybe 3 months ago
Another slip-up. MOSTLY SLANT, I meant. The N still runs R68/A's.
Yes, I know the whole reason is so that the old equipment is on part-time lines. But from a customer point of view it'd be nice to have correct rollsigns.
But from a strictly utilitarian standpoint, you are correct.
Or, alternatively, replace the R-40 rollsigns already! The R-68's got new ones in 2001; when do the R-40's get theirs?
The R-32s on the F also suffer this problem, again signs read Kings Highway, train continues to Ave X. Additionaly I'll bet many F riders don't even know where the rollsigns are on an R-32 after all those years of 100% R-46s they got shoved down their throat (no joke, every time one rolls in at W4th I see people remain on the platform. Since the F serves every station south of W4, there's no reason for anyone to still be there!).
For starters, CIY seems to treat the R-40 slants and the R-40M's identically. Wherever R-40's show up, they can be of either variety.
The diamond-Q has R-40's. The circle-Q has R-68's (an occasional R-68A may also show up). The W has R-68A's (an occasional R-68 may also show up). The N has mostly R-40's, with a few R-68's or R-68A's. The shuttle, of course, has its own dedicated fleet of nine R-68's.
On weekends, since the W runs local, it picks up a few R-40's, and since the Q is temporarily running through the tunnel, it also gets a few.
(Do I have to post photos?)
The N runs exclusively R-68's and R-68A's at night, for OPTO.
Cars aren't assigned permanently to one line. An R-40M sighted on the diamond-Q on Thursday might show up on the N on Friday and on the W on Saturday.
For those unable to see it on the Queens Blvd Line, I saw a second appearance of this train, led by 9311 later in the afternoon at 46th Street/Bliss on the 7. I think the whole train was 11 cars long.
I guess it was coming from Jamaica Yard, or somewhere in that general direction. It then went on the Broadway Line and reversed somewhere (Canal? City Hall LL? Whitehall?) and went up the N to Queensboro Plaza and up to Corona Yard. Did anyone else see this unusual train?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Those are the R40M's [4450-4549] and there are no R42's currently except 4665 which is mated to 4460 due to the Willy-B accident in 1995. The Q diamond uses R40's and R40M's while the Q local uses the R68/R68A's BUT on weekends you will find a slant or 2 due to the Q running via Montague.
Got your draft card yet? :-)
-Robert King
REAL REASON: Sure that's the excuse they give, but there is chances of the draft being restored are somewhere between -slim and nill.
The DOD wants your name so it can sell it to direct marketing services.
-Robert King
Absolutely. For example, the next time you're watching a game on TV, and yell for your woman to bring you another beer, you should allow her at least ten seconds to get it to you.
Oh, and by the way:
HAPPY BIRTHDAY
Oh, and by the way:
HAPPY BIRTHDAY
What is this world coming to !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Jealous of it?
Whoop! Whoop! Whoop!
Urban legend alert!
So obviously the age to keep is 21, not 18. I'm sick of having to ask my parents to buy me alcoholic beverages.
My birthday is in a few months. I don't mind not having any for a few years.
A 19th birthday is nothing. There is no milestone.
It still stands, and it's not a wigsphere.
Although I think you might be able to buy an Al Gore doll.
O.K. Chris, hop on a flight to London, then you can drink legally *and* railfan the tube!
Chuck Greene
I have seen this formula repeated in business, athletics, cinema, education, psychology, medicine and plenty of other fields. Far too many people today aren't willing to work hard.
Number 2 -- Be willing to admit when you're wrong or that you don't know something. You'll be amazed at how well people react to such admissions.
Happy Birthday!
CG
(I hear it tends to be more fun that way..)
But what's really fun is driving around the city 3am. Ah, a source of many wasted hours.
NO! I love rush hour traffic. I learned to drive in Manhattan rush hour traffic.
Speeding on the open road is also fun, but it's also illegal. Heavy street traffic allows you to do a lot of fun moves while still driving completely reckfully.
And 'calculating' and 'reckless' certainly aren't antonyms:
I'm calculating the square root of 4.
*I'm reckless the square root of 4.
Entry Word: reckless
Function: adjective
Text: 1
Synonyms ADVENTUROUS, adventuresome, audacious, daredevil, daring, foolhardy, rash, temerarious, venturesome, venturous
Related Word desperate, hopeless
2
Synonyms RASH 1, brash, hasty, hotheaded, ill-advised, incautious, inconsiderate, mad-brained, madcap, thoughtless
Antonyms calculating
3
Synonyms IRRESPONSIBLE, carefree, careless, feckless, incautious, uncareful, wild
A glimmer of hope just came to my eyes.
--
Charles Darwin
Ah, but what about your friend the driver? Was he experienced at driving at such high speeds? There's no margin for error when you're traveling at 135 mph, none at all.
Yes, he was. He even did one of those Skip Barber Racing School things where you run Dodge Vipers around a track. BTW, here is a photo of the dash of a similar Maxima SE (the carbon fiber dash kit is not standard):
You mean a railcar, right? I would hope people would not be that reckless with motor vehicles.
I will note that I did it on a deserted Meritt Parkway, I would not attempt going over 75 with any other cars around.
Thunder, Fire, or Sun?
LOL, thought I was gonna make an import related comment?
Now that I look back what I did was stupid (I was 18 at the time) as the car didn't have Z rated tires, and also lucky. But after my friend having done it the week before (in his 88 Camaro) I had to.
Rail related: While we're talking about speed here, what's the fastest running train in the U.S. (it must reach this speed on the regular to qualify as the answer)?
I think it's between Thurston St in Pawtucket and Douglas Ave in Attleboro ;)
No, but that's not really what I was talking about.
Well you can prove yourself to be a man by taking on Kool-D's offer to ride the system within 25 hours, provided you stay awake. And if you do, YOU DA MAN !
Happy birthday !!
Bill "Newkirk"
That's right might Brighton Line 'bro.
Not that I patronize strip clubs, indeed I can think of few less exciting activities than seeing a bunch of drunken 'tards leer at some drug-addicted skank who'll probably be on welfare once she gets too old and/or fat to keep stripping, but wouldn't they have to restrict attendance to people 21 and over due to their serving alcohol?
Here in Atlanta, home to some of the most liberal strip club laws (the only reason we are a major convention city, we also have more strip clubs per capita than any other city in the country), many strip clubs that allow 18 year olds will stamp those who are over 21. We still have 21 and over clubs, I guess so that they don't have to hassle with stamping hands, plus 18 years don't spend as much as older folks.
I doubt he'd get any at a strip joint. Not too many single female patrons hang out there.
He'd be better off calling one of those "massage" services that advertise in the back pages of the Village Voice.
I've heard that men who go to strip clubs can drop hundreds of dollars on lap dances and not "get anything." While I have no idea what a massage parlor costs, it's probably less than a strip club and at least the patrons get something in return for their money.
So that's why you're always late to ERA meetings!
College also gives you the opportunity to get those jobs a notch above the McJobs. What is your career path at Mickey D's or Wall-Mart ?
Management working shifts with days off during the week ? This week-end I met a used car salesman who had run his own business for six years & is now back to just an employee :-(
2) If you strive to make others happy, you have a shot at being happy yourself. If you expect others to make you happy, expect to be disappointed.
As for some advice, go to college, strive to be one of the best at work and remember charity begins at home. And finally, there is a golden egg for you somewhere, it will hatch for you in the most defining moment in one person's life in a positive moment. When that egg hatches, CARPE DIEM (Seize the day)!
Don't be scared. Life remains great, but you'll lament about what you didn't do or experience when you had the chance. That time, for you, is ahead. For me, it's as much a part of history as a redbird on the #6.
Green = Express
Red = Local
the way it usually is outside of Manhattan
the MTA proposed to run the (2) and <5> express and the (5) local, but Dyre Riders would lose their express service, and that's too important to them
White Plains Road also has express service, although it can take a while for it to show up
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/03/nyregion/03MAYH.html
It doesn't only happen there. Many T/D's seem to view local stations as entirely dispensable, and would rather keep local passengers waiting a half hour than slow down an express by a few minutes.
Before 63st it was very common to see Queensbound Es and Fs arrive at Roosevelt on the local track, and cross them to the express, if the express is congested. And of course with Es and Fs running through dumping their loads for a half hour, the first real local is ALWAYS going to be a G.
That has nothing to do with the service in the Bronx. One could argue that the Concourse express should be the CPW local, because it has a longer route in manhattan. It's manhattan route has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not it runs express in manhattan. That said, they run the < 5 > express because Lex is a more popular line than 7th avenue.
1948 run the 7 Av Exp 180 ST/Bronx Park (now abandoned)-Brooklyn,
the Lex Exp 241St-Brooklyn (with some peak Bronx Exp) and a Dyre St
Shuttle.
Later the 7 Av Exp terminated Dyre and at night at 241 St
and Dyre were Night-Shuttle.
To avoid confusion (?) the 7 Av Exp and Lex Exp swaped their
Bronx terminals all times except the peak Exp (now <5>).
So we have the current service.
Found on pages with historical maps/service scans (but not enough
historical info in the WWW!!!!!)
And exactly what end is the "front" end of DeKalb Avenue? And what do you mean by "upstairs"? In the mezzaine, in a building, or on the street?
The 24/7 entrance is also on the western portion of the station. Part time exit is at the eastern end.
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i7000/img_7713.jpg
The sun does NOT shine from north to south......
No but it goes from east (the right) to west (left) in this photo.
Looking at the shadows I can tell that this picture was taken in the A.M.
--Mark
I think it's between West 8th St. and Ocean Pkwy. More closer to West 8th St.
I don't know if it's still there today, but a couple of years ago, I saw one rail embedded in the dirt for this streetcar line. It was under the "el" only yards from West 8th St. station.
Bill "Newkirk"
It can be, because the trolley ROW was between West 8th and Ocean Pkwy.
Bill "Newkirk"
Only a few yards from the West 8th St. station. If you are in the area, and if it's still there, there should be a single rail still embedded in the dirt, crossing under the "el". I saw this myself, I hope it's still there. Probably the only piece of the streetcar line, not counting the insulator brackets suspended on the "el".
That rail should be for the McDonald Ave trolley line that ran under then Culver "el". Looking at that B&W photo, the PCC was on the right hand track and the left hand track should be for the McDonald Ave line. Sorta like a "wye" track. I just checked my copy of the book "Brooklyn Trolleys" by James Greller and Ed Watson. That line is on the enclosed fold out map on the inside back cover. As Kevin Walsh says, "the past is all around us".
Bill "Newkirk"
As in........ gave it away without consulting us PROS??
My Webshots photos of the museum train at Whitlock Ave on its way to Grand Central shuttle track 1 (the last 6 shots on the page)
Very nice pictures, could you explain to a novice what "Private Varnish" means?
Thanks
Well here are some shots from GCT today:
Dec 26
Feb 15
Mar 8
:co
Here's some of them:
Forest Parkway:
Lorimer Street:
Flushing Avenue:
I love the 4th one, with the spark and the 3 trains passing at once.
The (M) was still decently crowded leaving Myrtle.
The first time I did that, the (M) crossed before we got in the station, and we had to wait outside Myrtle. Since that time, every J has been allowed to enter, and left first. I watched the waiting (M) train wait for 5 minutes from down on the street.
But one would think the M would run express in the PM rush to expedite the switching, as there would be less cross-traffic.
No. First of all, it's confusing if the J/Z run exp in the AM and then the M in the PM. Also, the Broadway el has more passengers than the Myrtle el, and a much longer route. It makes sense to run the J/Z the express always.
What they should do is run every J train ahead of the M train. The J will be waiting at Broad anyway, so you don't have to worry about it arriving at the junction late.
Hmmm...that's strange...I almost always see the M leave first. The only time I've seen the J/Z leave first is if it's late (or the M's early). Then again the J and Z are notorious for being late...
You couldn't be more wrong. Lots of J riders in the AM will get off at Myrtle to get an M to Flushing, Lorimer or Hewes.
BTW, I hate that god-damned new structure placed in between the tracks. Destroys the view.
As for those stupid structures, I agree, and they are everywhere now. I had a hard time framing photos at Forest Parkway because of them.
What the hell are all those structures all over the place anyway? They didn't seem to be necessary years ago.
Yeah me too, there must be a reason why I always wind up railfanning the J or M when I get a chance.....
Ahem.
It would be interesting to see if the area's recovery has been reflected in increased turnstile counts at the stations along that stretch.
I remember seeing the abandoned Woolworth's back in the 80's. They are doing some work on that Gates movie theater. It's going to be used for something after all these years, not a theater of course though, but at least it won't be abandoned anymore. The interior was probably not salvagable.
There was also a very beautiful movie house on the courner of Howard and Broadway[RKO,I think] that was closed for years[I saw James Brown there once as a kid].
I don't remember a theater at Howard and Broadway. That's proabably before my memory. (although it wouldn't happen to be this buildng would it? This is one of David Pirman's mystery photos, and we were trying to figure out where this building and what station was, which looks like it may have been along the Broadway el, but the building is gone possibly).
There was also an great old theater at the western end of the Myrle Ave station. It was also abandoned for years when I first saw it. I don't know what it was called, but it was very old. I have seen photos of it in the backround when they were rebuilding the Broadway el in the 1910's, and it was there (you can also see it in a scene in the movie "Ghost"). That theater had a sad ending, about 5 years ago it was demolished, and for a few months, all that was standing was the stage wall. It was so interesting to see the whole interior of the theater from the station during demolision. It had beautiful plasterwork and Roman columns inside. That whole Broadway area must have been some great area before it fell into decline and fell apart...it was even interesting the lowpoint.
Well, to bring this back on topic, here are some photos of that ride:
I thought this was cool because of the flag:
Lotta peeps sporting the 'REESE' look.
People ride trains.
People (dont care) as much as we do.
People (don't know) about this site.
......zo how can we expect outsiders to zee their pic here?
Now that is just mysterious and interesting [especially in the subway]. You think your chances of winning the Lotto will go up LOL :-D.
WHAT happened last time??
Did she pull a BIE on Bri??
Whateva floats your boats, boiz. :) lol
Geez, what a disappointment. With that title on this thread I was expecting a Penthouse Forum letter. :-)
Tom
It only seems to happen when there is a train in the station, as I took this photo moments later, and there is no haze. It can't be train movement because the 6 is stopped in the above photo.
Although in the 2nd one it does seem like there is a reflection of the train's side in the "dust". This happened to me once-it's in one of my photos in the Grand Central Terminal thread. The white/red stripe reflected in dust just a few inches above where it actually is.
Some of them are very photogenic but they can't seem to get it together so you get the haze.
(^_^) etc.
While SB trains can currently use either the north track or the middle track, when the Canal realignment is finished, NB trains will have to use the middle track, so SB trains will have to use the north track.
The wall platform also has a direct street exit and a nice new connection to the IND mezzanine (which essentially is a second direct street exit). The island platform only has the narrow staircases to the IND platforms.
A removeable bridge, like the one at the Times Square shuttle station, should connect to the south side mezzanine.
And I still don't see what's wrong with leaving a bit of history in plain sight. Turn on the lights!
Oh I agree with that. That's why I said they should install a switch if they were going to wall it up, and make Essex a two Wall platform station. I feel if they are going to leave the Queens track in view, they should install a switch anyway, so trains from Bowery can still access that track, and 6th Ave tracks can access the middle track.
As for my ideas of putting a tack wall along the Queens track, or walling it off completely to make a two wall platform station, that would only be if they just left the trolley station the way it is. If however they cleaned it up, I wouldn't want it covered. In fact, maybe they should even make it an part of the Transit museum, and pull in some of the trains that the TM stores at COney Island. The Trolley trackways are the same gauge, so if they redid them, they could store trains on the old trackways. The biggest problem is though that the platforms for the trollies were all obviously low level platforms. That could be a problem with having the public come visit. And with ADA requirements, even for a museum, it would hard to that.
In fact, maybe they should even make it an part of the Transit museum, and pull in some of the trains that the TM stores at COney Island.
Not feasible, IMO. The curves are way too sharp. I doubt even an IRT car could manage those turns. Maybe they should do that with Canal and Bowery [the unused platforms]. Plenty of space there for one each of the new car classes that will be incoming in 2005 (R32, R38, R40, R40M, R42, and maybe even R44). They can even store that R40-R40M R40M-R40M R40M-R40M R40M-R40 bullet train without gates that everyone's been dreaming about!
I would really like to see the tiling of the original "Delancey Street" tablet, if one ever existed there.
In most cases I agree, but at Essex, those weird mosaics were only put there in 1989 or so, so no loss. That cement block wall is about a stairway's length away from the original wall there. Before 1989, Essex's original wall was exposed, and there were about three or four stairways (ala the IND) that went up. Then there was a fence (such as at 36th Street on QB, or Atlantic IRT), that blocked off all those stairways, around where the cement block wall is now. It was a real mess, because they stored all kinds of back there, and it was all in plain sight.
The original tile walls at Essex had NO mosaics, and NO name tablets. It was just plain white tile from wall the ceiling, in the same brick style that they are now installing. The only signs at Essex were standard subway black with white letters metal signs attached to the "jail" bar fence.
The mosaics now being covered were one of the first attemps to recreate mosaics done by the MTA. As primitive as they are, that wall was a vast improvement over what was there. It can only get better from this point.
I hope this makes sense, as I'm typing this during a break at a BBQ, and have had a bit to drink, what's the 4th without some beer!!!
HAPPY FOURTH OF JULY!!!!
Same to you. Now go! Drink some more. You seem way too sober.
I agree it was just awful and plain but now it will improve the station big time like they did at Atlantic Av on the Q. But as said the Essex wall was only in place since 1989 and now its getting a proper makeover.
wayne
Space for new mosaics
What is behind that blue plywood square?
I may be able to help, please use my e-mail.
Bill "Newkirk"
Mark
Mark
At least they get to experience the CPW express on their final run under their own power (albeit slowly).
I have a bad feeling that 9450-51 are next. BTW, where are the Subway Series cars? What set are they with? I saw them (9394-95) with 9702-03 & 9710-11 about several weeks ago. Still with them?
In Corona Yard
At Times Square
If you go there today, they have already driven some pipes in and have some sort of tarp over the entire thing.
The passenger-unfriendly cars with the poorly designed computerized features that so many railfans enjoy belong in a museum.
Straps suck. They swing from side-to-side providing NO support, and when all of the ones near you are occupied, you're screwed. The R-62s and R-142s have more vertical poles for those who need them.
The R-62s have color-coded rollsigns, but what difference does it make? Color is not the final designator of a train, and on the IRT it's rare to have two trains on the same line with different colors (only the 2 and 5).
Side-to-side support is unnecessary. Trains don't suddenly accelerate or decelerate from side to side. There's no need to strain everyone's wrists over harmless sway.
Front-to-back support is all that's necessary, and straps provide it better than overhead bars that run front to back.
R-17 straps have obvious spaces for two non-touching hands per strap. They're superior to Redbird straps in utility and in aesthetics.
The R-62s and R-142s have more vertical poles for those who need them.
That doesn't do much good if they're already in use.
I have nothing against bus-style straps, attached to overhead bars, but straps are useful to many.
The R-62s have color-coded rollsigns, but what difference does it make? Color is not the final designator of a train, and on the IRT it's rare to have two trains on the same line with different colors (only the 2 and 5).
The subway is hardly known for its stellar signage. One of its positive points is its use of a distinct and consistent logo for each line, consisting of a white or black letter or numeral on a solidly colored background of either a circle or a diamond. The logo for (e.g.) the 4 train, as depicted on the map, on all permanent station signage, on the R-62's, and on the Redbirds, is a white 4 inside a solid green circle. Neither a yellow 4 on a black background nor a red 4 on a black background surrounded by a hollow red circle, nor even a green numeral 4 enclosed in green parentheses on a black background, is the logo for the 4 train. Given how easy it is to get lost on the subway, it hardly makes sense to abandon one of the system's few straightforward navigational aids.
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_99/49cfr213_99.html
Running faster than 80 mph without PTS is not dangerous; trains were using CTC and cab signals prior to the edict. The ICC set that speed in reaction to an accident. Prior to that, speeds of passenger trains often exceeded 100 mph and most lines that allowed that speed were cab-signalled. Nowadays, if a road has cab signals, the fastest speed allowed is 90 mph; for faster than that, you have to put in the PTS. Basically, the ICC told the railroads that if they wanted to run their trains at the speeds they had been running them at, they would have to pay for all the additional signaling themselves; that was one factor in the trains slowing down to 79 mph for the most part.
In truth, this was merely an excuse for the ICC to help the interstate highways become competitive and to introduce the “superior qualities” of airline travel. Quite unfair.
Rail entities cannot be trusted to invent their own definition of safety
Neither can our federal rail agencies be trusted to fund improvements in order to help passenger rail become competitive again.
In 1922 when the regulations were first devoloped it was in responce to an alarming rise in accidents (even though most were derailments or grade crossing related), they gave railroads until 1948 to implement the technologies. In 1922 Interstates weren't even concieved of.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
--Mark
Back-lighted photo (cloudy)
You know of one for $300 or less?
Peace,
ANDEE
But then again, there are gas station attendents who laboriously keep clicking in a few more drops until the pump rolls over to an even dollar amount... even though I am paying with a credit card.
If I pay by credit card for a meal, I'll give an "odd amount" tip in order to make the whole charge an even dollar figure. Just a habit.
http://www.bwayjcteny.com/postnuke/html/modules/gallery/Sunset/S009_R42_J_Cy
http://www.bwayjcteny.com/postnuke/html/modules/gallery/Sunset/S011_R42_M_Ko
http://www.bwayjcteny.com/postnuke/html/modules/gallery/Sunset/S012_R143_L_BJ
http://www.bwayjcteny.com/postnuke/html/modules/gallery/6-29-03/1303_200_Bway
http://www.bwayjcteny.com/postnuke/html/modules/gallery/6-29-03/1307_242_Yd - I wish I had thought of doing that.
http://www.bwayjcteny.com/postnuke/html/modules/gallery/6-29-03/1332_Worth_Lex
http://www.bwayjcteny.com/postnuke/html/modules/gallery/6-29-03/1342_R15_6239_1_BB
http://www.bwayjcteny.com/postnuke/html/modules/gallery/6-29-03/1362_242_Yd
http://www.bwayjcteny.com/postnuke/html/modules/gallery/6-29-03/1374_R12_5760_231_Bwy How in the ???? did you pull this off????
http://www.bwayjcteny.com/postnuke/html/modules/gallery/6-29-03/1417_Plhm_Yd - Thanks for showing me what I missed
http://www.bwayjcteny.com/postnuke/html/modules/gallery/6-29-03/1431_Group_Photo - Ok, that made my day. Thanks.
How in the ???? did you pull this off????
I thought I told you that story? Guess not...
Thanks for showing me what I missed
Ya didn' miss much. That double red was as far as we went. I was shocked we didn't go through at least one of the loops (actually I was kinda hoping we'd do all 3).
Ok, that made my day. Thanks.
That doesn't say much, since it's only 2 hours into said day. LOL. You're welcome.
THANKS FOR THE LIT 1 ROLLSIGN, brah!!!!!!!!!
GREAT gallery you gots there, too!!
--Mark
(If you EVER wanna sell the original (or reprint)~!!
Mark
til next time
Mark
From the front, of course, you're right.
Mark
on the New York City Subway Cars page looks decievingly rectilinear, more like an R62, at least to my untrained eye. Maybe it was the angle of the shot or something. I was looking for that wedge shape when I was trying to identify the car, so I passed by thte R42s entirely. Thanks folks for clearing this up for me.
Mark
til next time
Now take a look at this N and R service advisory. NOTE: The bullets will not come out in adobe acrobat, don't worry about it.
Special thanks to David J. Greenberger who told me this mixup last Sunday during the MOD trip.
I takes really poor management to be able to maintain such poor service for such a sustainted period of time. I've been living in Kingsbridge for over 2years now and there has been no improvement in the two years I've been treated to leisurly trips home in the evening.
I suggested on this board, since you are a resident in Kingsbridge that has more teeth, that during AM and PM rush hours every other #1 train relays at Dyckman St, so there would be less trains from Dyckman to 242/VCP and skip-stop is killed off. But this would also improve service in the long run. Since you are a resident in Kingsbridge that has more teeth, you should write or email to the MTA on this suggestion.
Case & point another reason why the 1/9 skip stop is unreliable, and its supposed to save 4-5 minutes, right! :-\
Another possibility: this is only referring to late night R service. The express tracks at Pacific may be closed, so nothing can terminate there. So during the day, the R will run to Whitehall, and at night it will terminate at 36th along with the N.
Rs are supposed to be running in two sections - Continental to 2 Ave and 95 to Whitehall; Ws drop out at 42 St and Qs run local from Canal to 57
71st/FH to 2nd Ave (via. V line)
Whitehall to Pacific
36th st to 95th st
Even NYCT got me confused, I made an error in an earlier post that the N is turning at Pacific, when it actuall STARTS at Pacific St on weekends. So only the R can turn at Pacific while the N runs from 36th st to 86th st, both in Brooklyn.
I think I figured it out. The express tracks are closed at Pacific. Whatever normally relays at Pacific (the N all weekend, the R late nights only) is instead terminating at 36th.
The rest of the weekend, the Brooklyn R is terminating at Whitehall.
Of course, that's not what the advisories say, but I think that's what they mean.
(Besides, he may already have a job he's happy with.)
Peace,
ANDEE
As a C/R I loved both the R and the V. The V because the run was short, and the R because the most that I was doing was 2 trips. And the R does have a lot of good GOs (shortlining to either Canal or Whitehall).
Now how did I know that the B & Q would be your top choices ;-).
GO #2 - takes out F3 from Gold St to north of 36 and F4 from north of 36 to Pacific. 0001 Sat to 0500 Monday.
N shortlined to 36 St.
R midnight Shuttle shortlined to 36 St.
Anyone know where Global Default Zone is? Perhaps 76th Street is on that line....
Peace,
ANDEE
Three or four Christmases ago, I was visiting my grandmother and step-grandad (ex-CRNJ trainmaster, BTW) in St. Petersburg, Fla. My wife and I had occasion to journey across the bay to visit Tampa, where we went to the aquarium and Ybor City. At the time, I recall thinking how well a trolley line would work in or between those 2 areas. Honestly, I had no knowledge at the time that the TECO Streetcar System was in the works, but now it is up and running serving not only the tourists which it was intended to, but also the area's commuters.
Granted, the area had already been developed and become a tourist attraction before the trolley line was built, but it rather disturbs me that there is no one in New York with enough vision (or, I guess, money) to transform the Brooklyn waterfront into just such a destination, complete with its own streetcar line, modeled after the one in Tampa.
I have never been to Red Hook, so I am unfamiliar with the area. I don't know if such development would be possible there. But you have to admit that, given the TECO system, trolleys on the Brooklyn waterfront is not that far-fetched an idea. It would be an alternative to auto traffic, a commuter line and a tourist attraction. More ambitious and less successful things have been built in New York. The only things in the way are financing and inertia. (Perhaps development tied to the 2012 Olympics could include waterfront streetcars. Of course, NYC has to win the bid, and these trolleys would be in Queens, but why quibble.)
Since it appears that poor Bob Diamond's dream of a trolley line, which really was a trolley line for a trolley line's sake (and, believe me, as a streetcar fan I have no problem at all with that!), is dying, I propose that our one hope might be for the city and/or a private developer to revive the idea by tying it to general development of the area. It might take years, but such a project might remove the perception that trolleys once again rolling along Brooklyn streets is simply the pipe dream of one silly railfan.
I don't say this to insult you, Bob. I'm all for streetcars once again plying the streets of my adopted home borough. I've read your website, and I know this project wasn't simply a plaything for you and your organization. The line made sense as both a historic attraction and public service. It just seems like you are fighting a losing battle against City Hall after a sad series of events which were mostly out of your control. What little support you have from people like us seems not enough to make a difference, and the media appears not at all interested in your plight. I can't tell you how this turn of events breaks my heart.
But I really believe there is hope for streetcars in Brooklyn, especially given recent tourist-inspired streetcar line construction in places like New Orleans and Tampa, both of whose lines serve city residents as well as visitors. It's just too bad you're only Bob Diamond, and not Bob Trump.
City Hall, and for that matter Albany, simply don't care about our needs, just their own. And what's their excuse - "Hey, what did you expect? This is New York!" Sad. And as long as we have folks in City Hall with no vision, there's no hope for visionary projects such as the Red Hook trolley line. It's great to have bold thinkers and doers like Bob Diamond. Shame that DOT and City Hall screwed him.
"This is New York" is also what you might hear from a corporate CEO when he explains why he's moving his company to the Sunbelt.
Now it appears it's going to be a commercial area with a big grocery store to be the first new use of the realestate. Bob Diamond's stuff is in the way of the planned parking lot & his trolley tracks just don't fit in. It's realy too bad ... would have, should have, could have :-(
The City also is apparently moving to do something similar (commercial or residential development) a little further East, after they evict New York Cross Harbor.
Yet surely it would have been possible to accommodate the trolley project within the neighborhood's development. Of course, that would have required some ability on the city's part to negotiate and compromise, an ability which it lacked. A true disgrace.
Skagway Webcam
Mark
Thank you,
Flushing7
(Larry)
AcelaExpress2005 - R160 (NYCTBA Webmaster)
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Plus there were times (before the installation kits) that object files and such ended up in my AOL folder instead of the BVE folder. =(
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Try finding out yourself and report back, kapisce??
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Here's a link to the schedules.
--Mark
Pete is looking to ride this bus because he wants to railfan the Pascack Valley Line. Since the Pascack Valley line runs only one way each rush hour, the only way to do it without a car is with this bus.
Still, those are buses. Because they facilitate railfanning, they are not off topic.
Therefore people should talk about transit and not be annoying netcops.
The TZX Schedule includes the fare on the penultimate page: $1.50.
I'm not in the Model UN, but I would like the monkey butlers.
til next time
Not only is it easier to turn trains at Essex, it also allows passengers who didn't realize they weren't on a normal R to transfer to the regular R at Canal or to the F at Essex.
You're looking at a 4 train advisory. All that's relevant to 4 passengers is that this funky R runs between Chambers and Pacific.
(Do you think the south terminal is Pacific, as the advisory also suggests? Then what line goes to 95th?)
It'd be a neat trick to see DeKalb turn a train at Pacific too.
Reminds me of what the 1 did one weekend last summer: terminate at 34th, relay at Chambers, and go back into service at Franklin. I never did figure out why it didn't stay in service to Franklin or at least to 14th.
What other long relays have there been? The M weekend shuttle to Marcy when one of the local tracks is closed for a GO is a moderately long one.
I see no reason tunnel trains couldn't switch to the express track and do the same. (The N, of course, would have to be diverted.)
6s on occaision use the yard lead at Westchester Yard.
The 2/5 GO of a few months ago had 5s relaying at 167 St.
Cs have been known to relay in Pitkin Yard (not just on the leads).
The Jamaica Yard leads are used for R/V relays on a regular basis.
The H used to relay at Howard Beach (and even after the spur was open would occaisionally do so until track F2 was O/O/S).
Relaying to the yard on the N is considered a long relay (used when the W is running on teh Sea Beach).
Aren't there occasions when the Q relays at Stillwell?
Which of these is the longest? I think the 1 relaying from 34th to Chambers is still the winner.
Which of these is the longest? I think the 1 relaying from 34th to Chambers is still the winner.
No idea, but oy're probably right.
-Stef
(In either case, there was no reason at all to close 28th, 23rd, and 18th SB.)
What an odd GO.
Buit you're right it doesn't make sense to skip the local stops. But eh, sometimes to TA does funky things. At least with the D's long relaying to Second Avenue, Skipping Bway-Laf they have a valid reason.
The relay you describe is also used when the J is rerouted to the express track in one direction. The M can't turn on the middle track, since it would get in the way ot J trains, so it runs light to Marcy middle and back.
In the 9th Avenue incident, could M trains have discharged at 36th and relayed on the Sea Beach middle? Or was that track not available yet? (I assume 9th lower wasn't an option.)
No Sure Route to the Shore
I thought it was a little odd that there was no mention of NJT's commuter rail service between 30th Street and Atlantic City as an alternative to congested highways. I know this system has flaws, but they could have at least talked about that. If train service isn't a practical, then they could have said something about why it isn't, instead of just writing as if there were no rail service at all.
Mark
Atlantic City is the only town with a critical mass of year-round residents to make public transit a go, particularly since the advent of the casino industry. If that industry didn`t take root there, I think even that small system would not survive in the form it is today.
Mark
Thanks for another great shot!
Mark
Thanks.
There is no Track #7.
The H Avenue station, on the border of Midwood and Flatbush, is an example of the area's old-fashioned charm. The 97-year-old structure was originally a real estate office, but now serves riders on the Q local. New York City Transit is rehabilitating the Q stations, so Avenue H's future is up for debate. The wooden station is considered a fire hazard by the authority, which proposed to demolish it and build a new station. Community District 14, representing Flatbush and Midwood, is fighting that plan. "We have gone back to the drawing board," said Deirdre Parker, a Metropolitan Transportation Authority spokeswoman. "We are looking for alternative ways to keep it the way it is."
Meanwhile, the New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission is considering a request to designate the station a landmark and the surrounding neighborhood in Flatbush, Fiske Terrace, a historic district. The petition cites the enclave, named for the family that sold the property to the developer, for its distinguished older Victorian homes, many with curving front porches.
Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company
NYCT will rehabilitate the T.B. Ackerson Real Estate office but will preserve the exterior of the building. What a scared landmark that should've been a long time ago.
You know, one of those streets out in 718-land, as reported by the same paper that, a couple weeks ago, profiled actor Frankie G and published a photo of him sitting in "a park in Flushing." Arthur Ashe Stadium was clearly visible in the background.
Staten Island, I think. It's all the same ;).
(Can't anyone tell a joke?)
Peace,
ANDEE
If it weren't for that boat race ~250 years ago, Staten Island might be 201 today.
735 doesn't exist yet.
DOT is never wrong :)
--Mark
--Mark
Sure they are; ever been to the corner of Ave I & Utica St in Brooklyn? :)
At least they didn't make the same mistake in the Bleecker subway station, like they did at Beverley on the Flatbush IRT.
But isn't there some debate as to Beverley's correct spelling?
Yes, and here is an article about it:
http://subway.com.ru/news/beverly.htm
http://subway.com.ru/news/beverley.htm
http://subway.com.ru/news/beverly.htm
NO, the article made it clear that it's WITH the e :)
Look at this 1951 subway map. It has both stations spelled as BeverLEY Road.
The 1959 subway map, same thing.
But the 1972 map has BeverLEY and BeverLY road respectively.
A 1990 subway map (with the N train going over the Bridge, briefly) had BeverLY road on the Brighton Line and BeverLEY Road on the IRT line, all mixed up.
Now who is to blame for this?
but the 1937 BMT map spells it BeverlEY on the map, then back to BeverlY on the service guide.
Weird
If you go to the boardwalk at Coney Island, one of the signs will inform you that you're on the RIEGELMANN BOARDDWALK.
I can't blame NYCDOT for ths one, obviously, but I always enjoyed the street sign near New Paltz for MOUNTIAN REST RD.
The upper Hudson Valley is a HUMID place this time of year. Woof.
Of course, but the people you are telling it to have to realize you're telling a joke.
And because it doesn't meet code, and because if there is ever a fire and someone is injured they'll sue the MTA for $100 million dollars, and all the pols will be bashing the incompetent murderous MTA.
The MTA and NYCT are exempt from all local health and building regulations by NYS statute.
That prevents a court order forcing them to fix it. But it doesn't prevent the possibility of punitive damages if there is a future serious injury. "You mean you knew it was contrary to code and you didn't order it fixed?"
The MTA's adherence to local codes and regulations appears to be based on the MTA's convenience and not public safety nor the fear of legal action. Just about every station in the system has some serious fire code violations. Many violations are by design. Recent renovations have not addressed such violations. Many recent renovations have made the obvious violations worse.
Removing these violations system-wide is a very expensive undertaking. The MTA has conveniently forgotten about them. However, should the public demand that the MTA spend a couple of cents to raise the esthetics of their bland station design, the MTA's knee jerk reaction is "code violation".
My impression is that code is not the real reason. What is the real reason? Perhaps it's inconvenient to maintain. Perhaps it would be more costly to upgrade without altering the outer structure. Perhaps it is in the way of the way they want to widen the platforms and build new staircases.
If fire danger were the real reason, you would not be able to allow visitors into most of the historic structures in this country. And if wood structures were that much of a danger, you would not find an insurer who would cover the great majority of the private homes in this country at a reasonable cost.
P.S. It was an old Moses trick to allow a disfavored structure to deteriorate to the point of danger, then say that it "had" to be torn down.
I'll repeat the question. What's H Avenue?
When someone like David Greenberger, who's been posting here for years and clearly knows a lot about all parts of NYC, asks "What's H Avenue", it seems pretty obvious that he was making fun of the reporter's mistake and not wondering where this new street was that he'd never heard of before.
I've gotten off the D train at Avenue H, although I more often used Avenue J.
I've never been to H Avenue, nor do I see one on my map.
Your words.
"I've never been to H Avenue, nor do I see one on my map."
Avenue H starts at Ocean Pkwy Around East 6th Street and travels eastward To Glenwood Road and East 58 Street. From Ocean Avenue tomNostrand Ave it is interupted by Brooklyn College.
Why can't you see THAT?
Dude, It was a joke aimed at the reporter using "H Avenue" instead of the proper "Avenue H". Look at any map and you may find Avenue H, but I think you'd have a hard time finding H Avenue. It was just a little fun pointed at the reporter's ignorance to what he was writing about. Many of us have been to Avenue H in Brooklyn, but no one here has ever been to "H Avenue", as there is no such thing. Get the joke now?
Geesh, this thread has more responses about this joke, than about the actual subject matter.
The editor too?
And it's editors? And it's proofreaders? Jest you surely!
He stayed up all night wondering if there was a Dog.
: ) Elias
Peace,
ANDEE
Secondly, I spoke with Ron Schweiger last week and he told me that in lieu of the landmarking a compromise has been reached: The MTA has scaled back their original re-building plans so that ONLY the interior will get a retro-fitting and the exterior will be left as is. Obviously, this is the scenerio that has been in place for years, so to me this doesn't necessarily 'save' the structure in the future. Just keep your fingers crossed that the proposal for Landmarking Fiske Terrace goes through. Only then will the stationhouse truly be saved for generations.
Bill "Newkirk"
Transit and Weather Together tomorrow (Friday) morning from 5-11am on WCBS.
I hope I get that one soon. I did get an inagural M7 ride on the FR in mid May when I took a ride to Rosedale for
www.forgotten-ny.com
Not at all. Given the all-time construction on the 7, they have to shut down a track sometimes, requiring trains to run express towards Manhattan. In any given day during this construction, I've made several observations and figured out that regular express patterns resume at 3 PM.
My correct eBay site address is now: JPSPCC699@AOL.com
(unless it was marked by a tech during workyears)..
Arti
IIRC runs from W 238 to Flatbush.... uhh 8:38 am
There used to be one morning train that ran from 242nd (not 238th, IINM), down the West Side local to Flatbush, and then back up the East Side to E180. I believe it was officially considered a 1 train on its SB run, but it was invariably signed as a 5.
It was eliminated, along with most or all other interlines, on 9/15/02.
I'd say Subway because they have 4 different kinds of bread to have a sandwich on.
My favorite chain is...Quizno's. They are a bit pricey, but you get much tastier stuff. Not dried out cold cuts made in some commissary a coupld thousand miles away like Subway puts out out here.
Forget the chains, most delis will make better sandwiches.
It's kind of funny. I've only been to Subway once and it seems the experience was better. The sandwich tasted fresher and you had free refills. But, that's only personal experience. The Blimpie's and Subway I speak of are located at Queensboro Plaza, right along the viaduct on the south side of the structure.
“Jamborees have been a highly successful way of completing a large amount of work in a short period of time,” said Tom Schmidt, vice president-engineering. “Rather than work in brief windows between train movements, we’re able to have the rail line to ourselves until the work is finished. That makes for a safer work environment and minimizes disruptions for our customers and for the communities through which we operate.”
As a key transportation artery in the Southeast, the line typically handles more than 25 trains per day. CSXT began rerouting train traffic off the line Saturday, and by Wednesday, July 9, train operations will be back to normal.
While some trains will be re-routed, the overall effect is minimized by the traditional miners’ summer vacation in late June and early July, and by extensive coordination with shippers and receivers that included early shipments of coal, merchandise and intermodal freight that preceded the Jamboree. Some coal shipments that must continue will be routed to Corbin, Ky., and down through Atlanta. Others will go via Russell, Ky., to Richmond, Va., and south over CSXT’s I-95 corridor. Norfolk Southern also is helping with some merchandise and intermodal traffic reroutes over its lines between Charlotte, N.C., and Spartanburg, S.C., and Knoxville and Kingsport, Tenn. The railroad also has contacted local officials to help ensure that the public knows the project is under way.
For the 2003 Jamboree, 17 large tie and rail crews will refurbish track segments, including 16 track miles of new rail and the replacement of 172,000 crossties. In addition, crews will repair four bridges and 18 tunnels.
Another focus of the Jamboree will be to make improvements to 153 highway-rail crossings along the line. Maintenance teams expect to keep most crossings out of service for eight to 10 hours. Some private crossings may be closed overnight.
Although revenue train operations will cease between Elkhorn City, Ky., and Laurens, S.C., during the Jamboree, residents throughout the region should remain alert to moving work equipment and trains transporting ballast, the rocky material that supports the rail and ties.
“It is critical for residents to continue to be alert to moving rail traffic, particularly at grade crossings,” Schmidt said. “Motorists and pedestrians should obey crossing gates and signals, and stop, look and listen before crossing onto railroad property.”
CSX Corporation, based in Jacksonville, Fla., owns the largest rail network in the eastern United States. CSXT and its 34,000 employees provide rail transportation services over a 23,000 route-mile network in 23 states, the District of Columbia and two Canadian provinces. CSX Corporation also provides intermodal and global container terminal operations through other subsidiaries.
CSXT’s Track Project – June 30-July 8
By The Numbers
Route miles of CSXT’s system involved: 318
Number of employees working on the project: 1,200+
Number of pieces of equipment: 600
Rail spikes to be used: 2,250,000
Crossties to be replaced: 172,000
Average number of crossties to be replaced per day: 22,000
Rail to be replaced: 16 track miles
Bridges to be rebuilt/repaired: 4
Tunnels to be repaired: 18
Highway-rail grade crossings to be reworked during the eight-day project: 153
Average number of trains ordinarily operating in this corridor over eight days: 200
Technically the lower level is the Culver Line, even though it ain't connected anymore.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Taken from the W line platform at 62nd Street:
Oh, damn almost forgot this: 9th Avenue was the first stop:
Alright, alright I'l stop messin' with yous. Here are some of the good ones:
Not enough? Ya ungrateful punks. Check out the rest here!
Robert
Nah, it was a layup. Its SOP to put a midday layup on C3/4 at 9th Ave.
BTW, didn't you used to be somebody else? (Handle change due to NYCT's unreasonable attitude to employees off-duty activiity and MTA suits who "lurk" here and try to catch you.)
Down here, (Baltimore) we have an operator/dispatcher who runs the local transit fan website, and our MTA suits know him. He doesn't hide. Different attitude, what you do off duty insn't the MTA's business.
Huh? Why would the MTA care? What can they possibly do anyway? When you're off the clock, you're off the clock.
-Robert King
That is an afterthought that was added to the Siemens 2000 cars to allow a barrier between cars when they are MU at a level that would be touched by a blind person's cane so he would not try to board between cars thinking it is an open doorway. I have not inspected them closely, but they appear to be magnets on the ends, and the flexible barriers are held in place by the magnets.
Tom
Not really higher tech, but more effective for their slightly different purpose. In New York, the pantographs were to prevent those who knew what they were doing from trying to enter trains from between cars. No one is going to try that with these cars since there are no end doors and no real way to hold on outside the car, so these are to prevent those who might accidently step there.
Tom
Can you see out of the portals on the east end? Or are they filled in? I've always wondered why (M) trains that are stored down there stop so short - with 1-2 cars still out of the station on the north/west side...and I know the platform is definitely longer than that. How far do the 2 tracks (the ones that end) go?
Anyway, on my last trip I sort of turned the tables on the Crash Cam and took this picture.
The Crash Cam site does not list an e-mail address or I could have sent it in.
Anyway, on my last trip I sort of turned the tables on the Crash Cam and took this picture.
The Crash Cam site does not list an e-mail address or I could have sent it in.
Hi...
That's excellent. I've been looking for a good pic of my building. Thanks so much.
The cam is in the window that's one floor below the flag and one window to the left.
BTW...lots of track and caternary work lately and a bunch of really odd looking equipment to look at.
Thanks again.
At NYCT we make a game of "Leave them behind!"
Just kididng, although I have heard some C/Rs make an attempt to leave as many behind as possible. Crew room chatter though.
People who are in the wrong line of work.
Peace,
ANDEE
I know for a fact that some try to do this as spitefully as possible. The rule during off-hours is that C/R's are supposed to make all connections. Yet I've seen C/R's who will hold the door open with no one else boarding, and a train across the platform pulling in. They'll wait until the trains opens up, and close their own doors in passengers faces. They do it intentionally.
I've seen both varieties on my Midland Mainline (UK) commute - once at Bedford I got left behind by a train that was actually passing the end of the platform when the station clock (which shows seconds) showed its exact intended departure time. A half-hour wait on that occasion. But on another occasion I saw the C/R actually get off the train and go to look up the stairs at Kettering to see if any latecomers were on their way across the footbridge.
And on the flip side, a train that waits a minute won't create any problems on a line with 2-hour headways but will cause a major service breakdown on a line with 2-minute headways.
Technically speaking, expresses aren't supposed to wait for locals, and vice-versa, during rush hour. It's still frustrating when you get the door-closed-in-the-face situation.
One reason could be the increased dwell... sometimes you've made the equivalent of 2 stops at one. And some people stroll along, the C/R can have his/her doors open for a while and still someone will grab the doors that just got off the other train because they were taking their time. Fustrating.
At some stations, like Times Sq where all of the traffic is in the front, think of how fustrating it is for the C/R to get that front section closed to have an express come in, reopen then have to deal with it all again in the front.
And how come I never hear anyone complain about un(in?)courteous passengers? That leads to personnel who are the same.
No wonder everyone treats everyone else like crap.
Conductors, Stations Agents and Train Operators are people too and deserve to be treated with respect, not treated as if they OWE the customer because they're being paid.
One piece of advice a TSS gave me: "Don't put up with crap. The people are paying the TA, not you." Its true.
Mark
What happens if the local waits for a connection with the express? It falls further behind schedule.
Now it's the first train after a long gap in local service. More passengers than usual try to push on. That pushes it further behind schedule.
Eventually the local probably merges with another line. Let's say we're discussing the R -- it merges with the N and W past Queens Plaza. Because of the delays in Queens, the R ends up behind an N it was supposed to be in front of. Now there are two consecutive N's all through Manhattan where N's and R's are supposed to alternate.
Eventually the R makes it to Brooklyn, but very late. It arrives at 36th to greet a crowded platform -- the R is the only local south of that point. But since it's running late, the dispatcher instructs the crew to bypass local stops. Lots of people get off. The platform is more crowded now than it was a minute ago. The next R train has to carry the load that should have been shared by two trains. And this was all so a few people at Continental wouldn't have to wait another three or for minutes for the next local?
That said, there certainly are times when trains should wait for connections -- and when that waiting time should be written into the schedule. For instance, when all trains in one direction run express due to a GO, then they should wait at the crossover points on the return trip. It's easy to rewrite the schedule to accomodate the wait -- whatever time is saved in the express run should be "waited out" on the return trip, not immediately following the express run, as is so often done.
Very good point. Working at 240 tower I found it amazing when looking at a supplement that when the 1 runs express downtown, the uptown 1 local leaves 96th 2 or 3 minutes before than downtown 1 express is due to arrive, leaving passengers to wait 17 minutes (at least) for the next train. Having adjusted the schedule for that rain running express I couldn't see why the uptown couln't have been held 5 minutes later at Chambers St.
Last summer, I was on a midday N train that ran express from 59th to Kings Highway due to a GO. Almost everyone on the train was bound for bypassed stations. At Kings Highway our train met a NB one, and we all ran up and over to try to catch it, but it closed its doors just in time to miss every single one of us. The next NB N was a few minutes late, so, in addition to the extra 12-minute (or so) wait imposed on a few hundred passengers, the next train was overcrowded with two SB trainloads, dragging it further behind schedule and inconveniencing everyone up the rest of the line.
There's an obvious solution. The express run saves, what, 2 minutes or so? Rather than hold SB trains an extra 2 minutes at Kings Highway to get back on schedule, push arrival and departure times at Kings Highway and 86th Street 2 minutes earlier, and hold trains at Kings Highway NB instead.
I don't blame the crew for not wanting to wait for the entire trainload to cross over. The way the system is set up, it's in their interest to get out of there quickly.
(I also think that, on lines with scheduled express service, when all trains run express in one direction, all trains should run local in the other direction, even if that forces a supplement schedule onto expresses that aren't otherwise affected. It seems like this is usually done on the Brighton line, but nowhere else. It was actually done last weekend on the West Side IRT, but thanks to one crew who misread the GO and an automated anouncement system that I've been trained for two years to ignore, I had to make an extra round trip between 96th and 72nd at Sunday evening headways.)
Because the TA cares more about keeping trains on time than serving passengers.
Peace,
ANDEE
Mark
Fytton.
P.S. I may be absent from Subtalk for a while soon, as I am off to work in New Zealand [a country without subways (8-( ] for four months, leaving next Thursday.
Wish me luck! And to everyone on SubTalk (as well as BusTalk):
Have a great Independence Day! Go out and do some foaming, err I meant rail and bus fanning!!!;-)
However, Wellington, where I will be staying, has a funicular - which I mey well use regularly, since my workplace is at the top of it - and some auburban rail services to the interestingly named commuter towns of Upper Hutt and Lower Hutt. Auckland - which I shall probably visit - is said to resemble LA in its low-density sprawl. It has a more extensive suburban rail system but this is said to be rather run-down and not very interesting.
Or a stop in Hong Kong for a day or two either going or returning.
Tom
What's in between? Jabba the Hutt?
The trottoir roulant rapide or TRR (fast rolling pavement) is on trial until October, when the metro's safety committee will decide whether it has been a success - and whether to roll it out elsewhere.
The prototype carries passengers the length of Montparnasse station at 9km/h - three times as fast as normal travelators, and about the average speed of a Paris bus.
It is easy to spot old hands who use the trottoir daily and stride boldly along its length.
But new users also appear every day, and a small proportion promptly fall and hurt themselves.
In some cases the Paris metro has had to pay compensation.
Here's a link to the BBC news story - with an animated guide to how it works.
I think it sounds like quite an exciting ride for commuters.
There is also an interesting, two year old, link to a series of short pieces called "Around the world by subway" which mentions some of the world's subway systems.
Link
Andrew.
"Ne levez pas les pieds. Ne levez pas les pieds. Ne levez pas les pieds. Ne levez pas les pieds. Ne levez pas les pieds. Ne levez pas les pieds. Ne levez pas les pieds. Ne levez pas les pieds. Ne levez pas les pieds. Ne levez pas les pieds. etc..."
One such place that comes to mind is London Bridge (connecting London Bridge station with the City across the Thames).
In New York, with its straight streets, there could be many such places. The distance between two avenues is about right.
In some places high-speed travelators could connect busy subway stops where the transfer is inconveniently long.
As for the Gold Line, isn't there any way they could maybe depress the cross-streets so that cross-streets can travel under the line? That way railroad crossings bells wouldn't be needed.
With the kind of residental densities in South Pasadena, as long as the freeway carry some 75,000 cars daily, it will be justifyable. (Cross Bronx carries some 138,000 cars daily and was built through much much much denser neighbourhoods consisting of streetcar suburbs and 5-storey apartment buildings, with some 5,000 dwelling units displaced). I suspect the actual number of cars carried by the proposed highway would be a lot higher than 75,000.
Why be rational? Much easier just to hold opinions.
AEM7
if
it
makes
sense!!!
I
AGREE!
Yeah, they only complain about noises keeping them awake at night. They don't complain about the important stuff such as the census, R-142's, railfan windows, or getting in trouble for wearing an MTA vest.
Stories in South Jersey (formerly Camden) Courier-Post and Philadelphia Inquirer.
(OT) BTW, years ago, not too long after the Courier-Post moved its operations from Camden to Pennsauken, it ran an editorial complaining about Camden Catholic High School abandoning Camden by moving to Pennsauken (across the street from the C-P) after the Camden school burned down.
Upper Box 623C, Section 11
Praise Fred! He's on the RIGHT side of the fence.
The only team I really dislike is the Atlanta Braves and their low class tomahawk chop!
And their low class ex-pitchers who insult diversity, New York City, and the 7 train.
But only you YAWNKEE fans best know where to STICK that hand, Pig.
Oh, yah... the YAWNKEES do!
Back to the trainz, Billy G....
Its not a rumor its a fact, he really dislikes the Yanks ;-D.
In all fairness, Fred is a good sportsman and he didn't give me a hard time at all. It was a true pleasure to be able to spend some time with "Sea Beach Fred".
Don't miss out on what could be the last chance to get in on the ground floor into two positions that could be phased out real soon.
Err, I took the last O/C C/R test in 1999. Unless my mathematical skills fail me that's only 4 years.
Conductors will be around for quite some time.
Peace,
ANDEE
-Stef
I think I'll take the test again anyway just for drill. Maybe I can beat my previous score. This time I'd be in better financial shape to take a pay cut.
wayne
Check this out:
www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/facts/ffhph32.htm
The book, BTW, is packed with classic BMT photos. If you're a BMT fan or deeply interested in NYC Subway history, you've been missing something.
As for the Gold Line, isn't there any way they could maybe depress the cross-streets so that cross-streets can travel under the line? That way railroad crossings bells wouldn't be needed.
With the kind of residental densities in South Pasadena, as long as the freeway carry some 75,000 cars daily, it will be justifyable. (Cross Bronx carries some 138,000 cars daily and was built through much much much denser neighbourhoods consisting of streetcar suburbs and 5-storey apartment buildings, with some 5,000 dwelling units displaced). I suspect the actual number of cars carried by the proposed highway would be a lot higher than 75,000.
Why be rational? Much easier just to hold opinions.
AEM7
if
it
makes
sense!!!
I
AGREE!
Its a great book. Definitely worth buying.
John
See Post 523175 et sec.
Tom
John
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&e=1&u=/ap/hot_dog_heresy
I should have read the article first. So, Jtrainloco, you went there in person, or saw it on TV?
SubTalker "ERIC B" ???!?!!?!?!?!?
I once met a TA engineer whose name is Edwin Booker...any relation?
Phil Hom
Chuck Greene
If any of you can figure out how to capture the video, please post!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chuck Greene
Anyone know if any cars are being dumped the last week of August?
--Mark
Now we just need to figure out when the reefing will take place, sorry I can't answer that, anyone know?
Oh, and I'm still up for a Sub-surfaceTalk fan trip, just give me like a month's notice to get certified and such, I'd gladly go visit either the redbirds or PATH K-cars on the Artificial reefs down there. It doesn't seem too hard to do a dive trip with one of the operators in Sea Girt or Cape May, even if only a few subtalkers go, the rest of the trip could be filled up with civilian divers who just want to see some stuff lying on the bottom.
--Mark
Unfortunately, you can't download the video just by right clicking and saving it, but at least now you can get to it without digging through CBS's website.
Bill "Newkirk"
HAPPY FOURTH OF JULY!!!!
to you, too.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Red: Shady Grove to Glenmont or Silver Spring, Silver Spring trains began running at 11 AM
Orange: Vienna to Addison Road or New Carrollton
Blue: Rosslyn (upper level) to Huntington
Yellow: Mount Vernon Square to Franconia-Springfield
Green: Branch Avenue to Greenbelt or Fort Totten, Fort Totten trains began running at 4 PM
Car assignments were rather interesting.
Red: Usual mix of Rohrs and Bredas, no CAFS
Orange: Bredas and Rohrs, no CAFS
Blue: All Bredas, mostly 4000s
Yellow: All Rohrs until about 4 PM, then I saw Bredas and CAFs
Green: Mix of Bredas, CAFs, and amazingly, a few Rohrs
All trains had correct signage though some Orange Line trains to Addison Road had the metal plates on that end of the train showing Blue.
I got on the Metro at about 10:45 AM and took the Red Line (Breda 3139) to Gallery Place. On this run, our operator announced transfers to the Blue and Orange lines at Metro Center (see above and you will know why this is a problem). At Gallery, I saw a train of CAF cars going up to Greenbelt. Took Rohr 1200 on the Yellow Line to Pentagon where I was susposed to meet Tristan (BusStalker). I was late but after waiting almost 30 minutes, I left. I did go through the new bus station there for the first time. Despite the no photography signs, people were taking pictures of the Pentagon and even going up to touch the building. The police that were present did nothing.
Back on the Metro, I took Breda 4038 to Huntington on the "Blue" line. I then went back on the third car of that train, 4042, and went to Eisenhower where I got a picture of a Blue line and the Masonic Temple. Then took 3006, the last car of the next train to King where I missed a Yellow line train. The next train indicator (the old one) at King would light up depending on where the train was actually going. So it showed Yellow to Huntington when a Blue came in and Blue to Springfield when a Yellow came in. I took Rohrs 1216 to Van Dorn where I tried getting a picture of the trains from the corner of Eisenhower and Metro Road. I have yet to download the pictures yet so I don't know if it was worth it but I don't think it was. Got back on the Metro and took Rohrs 1265 back to Pentagon City. I should note that on the Blue Line leaving Huntington, an operator said "Welcome aboard the Yellow Line" before correcting himself and a Yellow Line operator did a similar mistake leaving Van Dorn. While on that train, I made an observation to be announced in a later post. At Pentagon City, I got pictures of trains going the other way until Breda 3111 came in on the Blue Line. I took that to Rosslyn, where a Breda train with door trouble was on the lower level. GOt a bus transfer and ran downstairs, through the malfunctioning door which was ultimately cut, but open at that time. I took that train, Breda 3015, out to East Falls Church.
At East Falls Church, I waited for GEORGE. He came late and once he did, he had very little A/C and his Clever Device did not work. Also, the ride was very bumpy. The bus was 3954. I got off at West Falls Church and took the third car of an Orange Line, Rohr 1100, the car without the AC label, to East Falls Church, where I have a video of it leaving (and you can hear the AC motors). I then took the next train that would ultimately go to Addison, Breda 3081, to Rosslyn. I wanted photos of the Addison sign for Orange, so that is why I waited. We had to wait 3-5 minutes to get into Rosslyn since a Blue Line was there. Two more Oranges came before the next Blue.
Blue Line trains had a very quick turnaround at Rosslyn for obvious reasons. They went manually on the northbound trip from Arlington Cemetary. When leaving Rosslyn, they went very slowly, less than 15 MPH, to just past the junction with the Orange Line, then normal speed to the switch at Arlington Cemetary, and then crossed over. Of course, only one Blue Line was between Arlington Cemetary and Rosslyn at any given time. I got off Breda 4038 at Arlington Cemetary, then crossed under and photographed 3006 as it finished its wrong-rail move and crossed over. Got on Breda 4000 and took that to Rosslyn where I waited for the next Orange, 4059. I took 4059 to L'Enfant Plaza. We passed the Smithsonian Station, closed because the exits are within the secure area on the Mall, where all the lights are on. We had a typical Orange Line operator who only mumbled. I think he announced at Federal Triangle we wouldn't stop at Smithsonian, but I am not sure.
At L'Enfant, they now have LED things to indicate if the escalator is to be used or not, as well as raised emergency stops. If the escalator is to be used, an green arrow is shown, and otherwise, a do not enter sign is displayed in red and white. I saw a Rohr going to Branch Avenue on the other side but then a train of CAF cars pulled in. I got on the last one, 5096, the one where I had my Addison Road incident after the WMATA bus rodeo, and this time, the interior LEDs worked! They now use all capital letters when displaying the line color (GREEN). They then only display the next station name (ARCHIVES) once the train starts to move and as you arrive at the station, it goes all blank except for three arrows to indicate which doors will open (<<<). I can't say I am very impressed with these signs. Took that to Gallery Place, then crossed over and got Breda 2015. The operator announced that no one should board 2014, which was locked down when I got off at Archives and empty. Then, at Archives, trains on both lines just kept coming and coming and coming to the point that you could see headlights the moment a train pulled out. This is when I started to see Bredas and CAFs on Yellow and the Rohrs on Green.
After 10 minutes and probably more than 10 trains in both directions combined, I went upstairs to get pictures of the buses with the flags. A number of buses did not have flags and some were on detour. Combined with what I did at Friendship Heights before getting on the subway, I got pictures of Orion Vs, Flxible Metro-Ds, Neoplan artics, and NABI artics with flags on the sides. I eventually got back on the Metro at Metro Center and rode 3164 back home.
I plan on getting maps for myself later this evening when I won't get yelled at for taking them. This year, they do not have a year on them so they could be resued if souvineer hunters like me don't take them. I have the July 4 maps from every year they have done special service plans, beginning in 1999.
Happy 4th of July to everyone, I hope that if I am in town next year on the 4th, some of the other DC or SubTalkers from elsewhere join me!
Since I spend some time on the south end of the L'Enfant Plaza Green/Yellow line platform waiting for my train home from work every day, I've spent a bit of time studying the working of the old next train indicator there. My guess is these are based off of the aspect of the signal coupled with the train approaching platform edge lights. By watching their operation, this seems likely. Since I'm actually on the northbound side, I've spent some time staring across the tracks visually tracing the conduit from the sign, and that makes it seem more likely.
At L'Enfant, they now have LED things to indicate if the escalator is to be used or not, as well as raised emergency stops. If the escalator is to be used, an green arrow is shown, and otherwise, a do not enter sign is displayed in red and white.
I've seen these on other recently-rebuilt escalators in other stations too, although where escapes me just now.
They now use all capital letters when displaying the line color GREEN). They then only display the next station name (ARCHIVES) once the train starts to move and as you arrive at the station, it goes all blank except for three arrows to indicate which doors will open (<<<). I can't say I am very impressed with these signs.
They've been working on and off on some trains on the green line for a few months now (kept meaning to post here, never got around to it). I'm not terribly impressed either, the timing of the various messages is just slightly off. For instance, the station name should continue to be displayed when the door side indication comes up.
Also, just another unrelated tidbit folks might find interesting, the installation of the canopy over the street escalators at the Maryland Ave. entrance at L'Enfant Plaza is coming along. They've had the escalator area fenced off around the sides and back and a temporary construction canopy over the escalators for awhile now, but just yesterday I saw the first metal support beam for the actual canopy had been installed.
I am not so sure you are right about the old destination indicator, I think it might work off the destination code input by the operator or some other part of the wayside signal system becuase I think I have seen the one at Rosslyn start flashing before a line-up was given. Also, at Stadium-Armory during rush hour, there could be one or even two trains between the station and D&G Junction.
Oren,
The signal at the junction interlocking gets its routing information from the destination system onboard the train by way of the train to way side communication system. When the train enters the approach track circuit the interlocking machine checks the route table against the destination code received from the train to way side communication system and sets the switch and signal to desired route. I am not quite sure if the line color sign is triggered by the interlocking machine or by the train entering a track circuit before or after the approach track circuit used to set the switch and signal.
John
Nope, I haven't met anyone from SubTalk in person, I am a pretty infrequent lurker, and an even more infrequent poster.
YES!!!
Today, while riding on the Yellow Line between Van Dorn Street and King Street (Yellow to F/S today, remember?), as we passed the yard, I saw on one of the trains on a siding near the yard, it had AC markings under the car numbers. And these were Breda cars!!! I believe the number was 2042, but I am not sure. I do know the first two numbers were 2 and 0 and the last number was a 2 on one of the cars. I also read that the first 6 cars are back from Alstom but they are having trouble with them, so they are not in service.
But before that, check out the ~350 new photos I've uploaded to my website today. Some you've seen before, but most you haven't. They are located here: Temporary Albums, sorted by Date and will remain there until I finish uploading the other 1000 or so photos I have backed up. Well, then I have to caption them all, and THEN I'll move them to the proper "by car class" or "by location" albums. Enjoy.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Also, some of you may think I was standing in an unauthorized area. Well, if I was, I think I would have gotten in trouble, as there were plenty of MTA personnel in the area. That said, I was NOT in an unauthorized area, I assure you. Check it out sometime...in person. And you will see what I mean.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I wasn't being critical, just that 1,350 pictures (and I'm assuming they were taken recently) is a lot of pictures.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Free market solution to the "union."
Yeah, they only complain about noises keeping them awake at night. They don't complain about the important stuff such as the census, R-142's, railfan windows, or getting in trouble for wearing an MTA vest.
If your traveling late at night when the HOB-JSQ is running then simply take that train to Grove Street and transfer to an EXPL train accross the platform.
Larry, RedbirdR33
What they should have on the map is that the HOB-EXPL train and the EXPL-NWK train are actually the HOB-NWK via EXPL. There's no difference in this method of running than the late nite 33-JSQ via HOB running.
Only for five months though…it’ll be the first time in history of PATH that the Newark train did not serve Manhattan. That will be a long five months.
If you do not mind using a bus for part of the journey, you can check out the stations on the SJLRTS under construction, maybe you can catch a car undergoing testing.
I think the original poster meant "safe" in the sense of "low crime."
As long as you don't mingle with the "natives"!
15th and Market, and 30th and Market, are also good with the el and subway surface right next to each other.
Get a daypass so you won't have to keep paying single fares or buy transfers!
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Mark
Chuck Greene
I used to live in Northeast Philly and I rode the 59 every day to get to the Market-Frankford Line. Those creaky old beasts really grew on you after awhile.
Mark
The Ben Franklin Bridge pedestrian walkways are good places to photograph PATCO trains. There's a place where the PATCO tracks cross above the MFL tracks. If you're patient and lucky enough to catch both of them at the same time, you'd have one great shot.
Following Woodland Ave just a bit from the 40th street portal you reach a place when the street enters a six-block-long valley, and looking down Woodland you can often see five trolleys on the 11 and 13 lines.
Also good to ride are the 101 and 102 trolley lines from 69th street.
Mark
PATCO also has a good railfan window.
And I second the motion for the 46th Street portal for a lot of subway-surface action.
The 40th street trolley portal is definitely not to be missed, but just be aware that the route 34 is temporarily bustituted for overhead wire work west of 40th.
Mark
Mark
All of the R5 Malvern/Thorndale
R3 between Swarthmore and Elwyn, particularly the trestles over Crum Creek and Ridley Creek (very long and high)
30th Street Station. You can get a shot of both Amtrak's Race Street Motorcoach Yard and SEPTA's Powelton Avenue Yard, as well as maybe scope a few Metro-North, VRE, MARC, or NJT cars in the Amtrak Yard (NJT aren't as exclusive, as the NJT Atlantic City Line operates off Track 10 at 30th Street, but MARC and VRE never come this far north, nor Metro-North this far south), and of course the rare shot of old-school Amtrak cars next to the new scheme, next to an Acela or two.
Market East. It's just pretty, and you can have lunch in the Gallery Mall if it suits you.
R5 Lansdale Station isn't too bad looking.
There's some nice views of the Schyulkill River along the R6 Norristown line, particularly between Manayunk and Miquon.
R8 Chestnut Hill West has some picturesque stations (Carpenter, C. Hill West, St Martins), and the neighborhood is a photo opportunity itself.
Avoid the following: R6 Cynwyd, either branch of the R2 or R7, and the R8 Fox Chase.
Some points (Philmont, West Trenton) along the R3 West Trenton aren't so bad.
Of course, the R1 is an excellent photo opportunity, as it has the newest construction of the Regional Rail Lines. Eastwick is nice for an all-wood station, and the Airport terminal stations are nicely done. You can also compare old and new construction at Airport Junction (not a station, it's the point at which the R1 Airport breaks away from the Amtrak/R2 Marcus Hook/Wilmington/Newark tracks)
For a snack, the Green Line Cafe at 43rd and Baltimore on the 34 trolley route.
For a quick lunch, Gianfranco's Pizza Rustica at 3rd and Market, one block west of the 2nd Street MFL station.
For a bigger meal, Cafe Vientiane (Laotian food) at 48th and Baltimore, also on the 34.
As for regional lines, I agree the R1 has great views, especially of the John Heinz wildlife refuge. If you want to easily hit two lines, take the R7 to Chestnut Hill East, take a short walk through the pretty Mt. Airy neighborhood to the R8 Chestnut Hill West terminal and take that train back downtown.
Mark
Sean
Temple University
Mark
If you want to add one more layer to it, don't take the R3 all the way into Center City, but get off at the 49th street station, and catch the 13 trolley at 49th and Chester, and ride it downtown.
Mark
Mark
What what what? Screw the Gallery. If you're at Market East, eat at Reading Terminal Market!
Is Dock Street Station brewpub still there?
Mark
Also, SEPTA regional rail trains all have a Railfan View with both R5's, the R8 CHW, R2 wilmington, R3 West Trenton and R7 Trenton provide some great video action. However somee E/R's can be downright malevolent re: looking into the cab.
Thanks,
Flushing7
PATCH goes over a missing eye.
Mark
Example of PATCO railfan window: this photo was taken from the front passenger seat of a PATCO train.
It is still sporting its NYCTA numbers. I wonder what number series it would be renumbered into.
AEM7
Which incident with the R160's?
AEM7
You can find the threads N_Slant-40 posted by using the archives.
Ditto to that. It wasn't "authentic" enough anyway.
Ozzy Zamora AKA The Kiman
MTA NYCT Traffic Checker
Ultimate fan of Miami Dade Transit
And thanks Brian, for posting my photo, I now have my Drexel FTP space working.
I probably took upwards of 60 some photos tonight, most of them didn't come out, maybe a dozen or so are of actually good quality, but the rest are bad, either because of unsteady hands, or just plain stupidity:
Do note: Don't take pictures of moving busses (or for that matter, anything else moving) at night with a relatively low megapixel camera, it won't work. :(
But then again, some worked better than I expected:
But again, it's a bright photo, with the lights reflecting off the marble(?) facade of 30th St Station, so the F-stop did't need to be as high and I didn't have to stand as still.
I also like this one, the largely black, empty Penn dorm with the last bits of skyglow behind it. Also the spot lights that those dorms have, IMHO, look really cool in the humidity.
Leaving the island was slightly hard. The tramway had an extremely long, orderly line. The subway had a relatively small disorganized crowd trying to get through the doors and the 4 turnstiles. Many tourists had minor trouble with the turnstiles, slowing down movement. At one point, police blocked the doors (don't know why).
Because the trickle into the station was slow, the platforms (which aren't that spacious given it's a new station) could handle the crowds, though they were full. The trains could handle the crowds easily. One family with a kid on a giant tricyle stroller didn't make it onto a crowded Queens-bound train, but otherwise everybody got on without making the trains look anywhere near as bad as rush hour.
No doubt the $18 charge was for access to the fireworks viewing area on the south end of Roosevelt Island. Access to the island itself costs just a tram or subway fare (I don't know if pedestrians can use the bridge from Queens).
It's a public park, but it isn't owned by the city, it's owned by the RIOC.
Yes they can. I have.
I thought I saw a video on one of the satellitel TV channels on the Cape Cod Central, and the cars in the video were DEFINITELY ex-LIRR P72's.
John
avid
(I can't remember the "Simpsons" reference to this subject!)
'But, then we're overrun with gorillas!'
'No problem. When it's winter time, the gorillas freeze to death.'
I think that's how it goes, well some of it. :)
Some days you are the statue
and some days you are the pigeon.
: )
I also remember seeing a news report which said that there's a pair in one of the casinos down in AC, as well as a few in Philadelphia.
Eventually the chicken tired itself out and sat quietly, but still the owl never moved. Then evening came, and the chicken too, had to roost, but the only roost there was, was to sit next to the owl. This the chicken did, and the owl never moved.
In the morning, there was no chicken in the cage. The Owl was still roosting about where it was the day before.
Elias
There is a plethora of pigeons all over there as indicated by the feathers and droppings. It's just disgusting. I hope the MTA has a trick or two up their sleeve to take care of this problem.
Mark
Mark
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Compare:
#3 West End Jeff
We really should have another photo contest. There have been some great photos going around here lately.
dedicated facilities are not fiscally efficient. track sharing is economically efficient. facilities should not be dedicated unless it cannot physically be connected
oh, i don't dispute the facts, although you spin this like you're a CSX shareholder... iirc, the worst ATK wreck in terms of pax deaths was attributed to a CSX bridge (barge strike by non-CSX barge)? aem7
I do not know if they own it or not, but Metrolink seems to have exclusive use of the track in the median of the San Bernardino Freeway and its ROW all the way to San Bernardino. It should be noted that it is a single track from L.A. to El Monte, which makes freight impractical and limits the frequency of reverse moves during peak commuting hours.
Metrolink remains a commuter railroad with most of their trains running inbound to L.A. in the morning and outbound in the afternoon, five days a week, with minimal schedules on Saturday, and none on Sunday and holidays. I have trouble understanding how they can utilize their operating staff efficiently. It looks like they must have a lot of engineers and conductors (and equipment) sitting around idle in L.A. between the morning and afternoon commuting periods. It still has a long way to go before it is in a league with the eastern commuter railroads.
Tom
Metro-North and the LIRR have the same problem too. Their mid-day schedules, while more extensive than Metrolink's, are considerably lighter than those during rush hour, with the result that many staff members and trainsets sit idle for the mid-day period. It's this "peaking" phenomenon that is a large reason why commuter lines cannot make money at the fare box.
Split shifts are common in transportation for some employees, but usually not for the majority of the operating employees. And with Metrolink, the starting point of the trains is 40-60 miles from downtown L.A. Assuming the people drove to their starting point, unless there is a second car kept downtown, there is no practical way to return home between split shifts. Any public transportation would be at least a three hour round trip.
Tom
When the Metrolink shops were built at Taylor Yard in 1991-1992, they actually did build a bunkhouse for crews on splits to rest/sleep in -- but that didn't work out, as whoever designed the place didn't take in account that there would be heavy machinery working on the trains, creating a lot of noise/vibaration. So, the answer was to contract with a hotel in the vicinity of Union Station (close, but not that close -- I know which one it is, but will not divulge it).
As for the equipmetn "sitting around" in LA -- that's basically the only time they have to perform inspections, maintenance, etc. as the trains usually layover at outlying locations at night and weekends. Bombardier has the maintenance contract at the shops, (and recently was awarded another five eyar contract) and I would guess that they are doing a very good job, as I rarely hear of any breakdowns on Metrolink's system.
Mentioning the line down the middle of the I-10 from LA to El Monte -- no, it would not, at this time, be practical to use if for freight service. That is part of Metrolink's San Bernardino line, and it sees, basically, hourly service during the day. It also sees frequent Metrolink service on the weekends, being the only line to run seven days a week. Also, when Metrolink began operations a major flyover was built east of El Monte so the Metrolink trains and then-SP, now-UP freights wouldn't have to mingle, as Metrolink was running in from north of the freight line at Baldwin Park, and heading off southerly just west of the El Monte Station. When the flyover was built, they basically isolated the Metrolink and the SP (UP) lines from each other, though they run parallel. So, nowadays it might be considered impractical even if crossovers were installed.
I was somewhat disappointed when I rode the San Bernardino line from Claremont to LAUS r/t last October. It was a nice ride, for sure, and I really liked the bilevel coaches. What disappointed me was that traffic on I-10 was moving well both times my train passed through that stretch in the median. It would've been much more enjoyable had vehicle traffic been totally clogged as we went zipping along :)
oh i love the detail of the rust and peeling paint on the walls by the way
Basically it comes down to laziness of the rr to support such a feature. MNRR only does with the ACMUs since there's so few trains that have them, and they only run in rush hour in one direction, it takes almost no effort to have the seats all face forward. But SEPTAs older silverliners can be found all day, and would have to be reversed several times, so they probably decided it wasn't worth the trouble.
When I was a kid, I'd flip them all over as I was leaving the train at Penn Station.
But I must tell you, the M1 seats were (when new) more comfortable than the walkovers.
I think there is a safety issue as well, the fixed seats being the safer.
Still, I would rather have a train with the walkovers.
Elias
Chuck Greene
Crescent Street
121st Street
Howard Beach-JFK
36th St, Brooklyn
Queensboro Plaza
Union Square
Atlantic Avenue
Essex Street
Broadway-Lafayette
167th St/Grand Concourse
Dykman Street
Church Ave.
Pacific Street
IRT:
Atlantic Ave
Grand Central
Queensboro Plaza
111th Street
Willets Point
96th Street/Broadway
137th Street/Broadway
Dykman Street
215th Street
138th St/3rd Ave
E180th Street
Gun Hill Road
149th St/Grand Concourse
I'm sure I've missed a few on both lists.
Here are some stations I know exist on the signs which aren't terminals:
BMT/IND:
Crescent Street Broadway-Brooklyn Locals (some)
121st Street
Howard Beach-JFK
36th St, Brooklyn Culver Shuttle before 1959, West End Shuttle
Queensboro Plaza Brighton Local, Fourth Avenue Local before 1949
Union Square
Atlantic Avenue (the one in ENY) Broadway-Brooklyn Local (some)
Essex Street
Broadway-Lafayette F Train
167th St/Grand Concourse
Dykman Street
Church Ave. F Train before 1954, D Train short line until Chrystie
Pacific Street currently, weekend night N; night R
IRT:
Atlantic Ave 4 and 5 services midday
Grand Central TS-GC Shuttle
Queensboro Plaza
111th Street Short-lined 7
Willets Point 7 during special events at Shea, Flushing Meadow
96th Street/Broadway
137th Street/Broadway Broadway Locals before c.1960, alternate Broadway Locals before 9 was instituted
Dykman Street
215th Street
138th St/3rd Ave
E180th Street Dyre Avenue Shuttles, some 2 or 5
Gun Hill Road Third Avenue el
149th St/Grand Concourse
The last Redbird :)
--Mark
IRT (cont'd)
61 St/Woodside
Hunters Point Av
Burnside Av
14 St
Chambers St
IRT:
Atlantic Ave 4 and 5 in the past
Grand Central 42 St Shuttle
Queensboro Plaza 7 during construction
111th Street Morning rush 7
Willets Point PM rush 7
96th Street/Broadway
137th Street/Broadway 1 in the past
Dykman Street
215th Street
138th St/3rd Ave
E180th Street 5 late nite shuttle
Gun Hill Road 8 train
149th St/Grand Concourse 5 during construction
Eastern Parkway
Queens Plaza
111th St (BMT)
Err, I don't think there are anymore Rush hour "N" runs that short turn, since the W supplements weekday Astoria service. And before the bridge swap, I recall seeing trains signed up for service to Whitehall St, not Canal.
IRT:
Atlantic Ave - Use to be the Terminal For the 4 train during non rush hour/night services in the 70's and 80's and used during G.Os
Grand Central - Current Terminal of the Times Square Shuttle
Queensboro Plaza - Can terminate there due to switches and used for G.O's
111th Street- Trains can go there due to Yard Lead tracks and is often used as the last stop on trains who wish to proceed to the yard after 111 Street.
Willets Point - Used by the 7 for Baseball Specials
96th Street/Broadway - Used for G.O's as the Southern Terminal for 1 trains or the northern Terminal for 3 trains (very odd)
137th Street/Broadway - Was once the terminal for some 3 trains and some 1 trains in the 70's and 80's.
Dyckman Street- Due to swtiches North of the Station, the train can be used as a terminal (and has) for G.O's
215th Street - Same reason as Dyckman Street
138th St/3rd Ave- Same as Above
E 180th Street- Due to yard certain trains terminate there and lay up in the yard, and is used by the Dyre Avenue Shuttle as its Southern Terminus.
Gun Hill Road - Original Terminal of hte 3rd Avenue El, and provisional Terminal for G.O's.
149th St/Grand Concourse - Same as Dyckman Street.
BMT/IND:
Crescent Street
121st Street
Howard Beach-JFK
36th St, Brooklyn
Queensboro Plaza
Union Square
Atlantic Avenue
Essex Street
Broadway-Lafayette
167th St/Grand Concourse
Dykman Street
Church Ave.
Pacific Street
IRT:
Atlantic Ave
Grand Central
Queensboro Plaza
111th Street
Willets Point
96th Street/Broadway
137th Street/Broadway
Dykman Street
215th Street
138th St/3rd Ave
E180th Street
Gun Hill Road
149th St/Grand Concourse
Heres all the former terminals which still appear on rollsigns.
E180th Street
Gun Hill Road
111th Street
Grand Central
Pacific Street
Essex Street
121st Street
Howard Beach-JFK
Grand Central is used daily except nights: the 42nd st shuttle.
Pacific is presently used by the N/R late night trains.
It's always a good idea to KEEP these destinations on rollsigns.
Speaking of Weird destinations; I've seen Kew Gardens on a rollsign.
I've seen Grand St station rolls along with North and South Terminal rolls [when a station is not there on a roll].
Also, I recall seeing E trains sporting Canal St on the north roll and Jamaica Center on the south (back during post 9/11 service plan)
Also, I recall seeing E trains sporting Canal St on the north roll and Jamaica Center on the south (back during post 9/11 service plan)
The Canal rolls were also used when the C was out of service back in 2000 for switch replacement [E's terminated there in the late nights].
Nah, the E terminated at Chambers.
B extra rush hour service (all trains went to/from BPB so Concourse local riders didn't have to wait that long.). And they used some R38s on the B line too.
C Not running, entire route (see B and E services)
E extended to Euclid 6AM-11 PM (around the same times the C was running). Late nights, E terminates at Canal St and used center track between Canal and Chambers A/C tracks for layup purposes.
What you're saying is impossible. There's no way that that center track could have been used for layup purposes. Then the "E" train has no where to turn.
I remember the E terminating at Chambers Late nights. That's where it went. Heck, I rode the line everyday of that GO.
Switches over to express track after leaving Canal, then there is a layup track, similar to center track between 21st st and Court Square/IND X-Town line. The train can layup there and come back in on A/C northbound express track at Canal St. There, the train can switch to local track after leaving Canal.
Laying up a train involves leaving it there (or so I think). You're talking about turning the train.
I'm pretty sure that the train went to Chambers and then went back on said track.
The E trains relayed using the center track I mentioned.
Maybe you guys are right. But I coulda swore that it turned at Chambers and not canal.
Maybe you guys are thinking of the WTC re-route. Chambers was closed then, so E trains had to terminate at Canal.
This had nothing to do with the WTC reroute. The General Order I recall DID specify the late night E trains terminate at Canal. If the E train terminated at Chambers St (North Platform), which side would the E come in? Would the very few passengers get confused as to which way the E traveled, if it came in S/B track at Chambers and relayed N/B. There really was no sense to do that. Plus the schedules dictate (IIRC) that despite 20 minute headways, the E train was 2-3 minutes ahead of the A train so it does cause a problem if the E terminated at Chambers. With Canal St as the terminus, E trains can do a quick relay after fumigating the entire train then come back in at N/B Canal St. The S/B A train just sits and waits for a minute or so (all night 8th Ave service is local) for the E train to leave.
Nope. They were P/A (north roll) and Canal Street (south roll).
Jamaica Center
Parsons/Archer
I should've been more specific.
Some (7) trains terminate at Willets Point or 111 during the rush.
Why else did the trains say "Special" in the South Terminal when (7) trains terminated at QBP during the last GO that caused trains to do that?
Thanks to JohnVillanueva.com.
Dyckman, Pacific, E180, and Grand Central are all current terminals at various times of the day or days of the week.
Jim Fish
Albuquerque, NM
VC Madman
Both of them had the 2 yellow cars, and each had an R62 single hitched up behind it. Don't know why though.
Since the B division yards don't have any single unit passenger cars (maybe they do this so the C/A's can have A/c in the summer?), I'm guessing they just hooked up an R32 set.
The second train was definitely the Vaccum train. Boy, does that thing suck!
I've heard from crews that it sucks like a fothermucker.
More non-regular riders. That is, even more people than usual who don't realize how bad it is to discard trash on the tracks.
No cars, pedestrians or cyclists for 11 years. The manhattan bridge has yet to even be completely closed to one mode of transportation. We DON'T have it so bad.
And you say NYC is bad at re-building/building stuff.
I think that some Bi-State Transit (light rail cars) use it now.
When I walked over, traffic was very light. Maybe a dozen cars passed by. East St. Louis, Ill is a rough place. I was a bit anxious walking down the main street there.
Note: The toll booth was on the Illinois side. Do you know why?
Bridge and road tolls are either illegal or unconstituitional in Missouri. Can a New Yorker believe that such a thing exists?
Not true.
It's spelled "Eads" Bridge, the oldest RR bridge west of the Mississippi River. It was completed in 1874.
Yes, and after this platform burned down, the remains of the original northbound track was exposed for the first time.
"Furthermore, what was the photographer doing over there at the time of taking the picture?"
Taking advantage of a nice shot, since the sun was on the correct side.
" And of course the obvious, what in the heck is a QT doing at Franklin Avenue?"
Perhaps these cars came of the (QT) and the signs weren't changed. Looks like a four car train, much less than they usually run on the (QT).
Bill "Newkirk"
Don't know the exact date. Sometime in the 80's.
Bill "Newkirk"
Don't know the exact year. Sometime in the 80's.
Bill "Newkirk"
The picture is definitely an anomoly. There was no Franklin Local service to Coney Island contemporaneous with the R27s.
FRANKLIN (#7, later SS)
06/06/59 Extended Saturday daytime from Prospect Park to Coney Island year-round
01/01/61 Cut back Sunday service to shuttle Franklin Av to Prospect Park, cut back Saturday service from Coney Island to Brighton Beach
02/23/63 Cut back Saturday service to shuttle Franklin Av to Prospect Park
R27's were delivered in 1960 and 1961. It doesn't look like a brand new car. However, exterior finishes deteriorated quite quickly in the pre-carwash days.
HOWEVER ... my memory is fuzzy on this, but I vaguely recall that there was a GO in the early '60s which had WEEKDAY Brighton Locals going to Franklin Avenue either during a service disruption or construction for a short time. This MAY be what we're looking at, but don't quote me.
That doesn't explain the "Coney Island" on the sign, unless it was just a complete mis-signing.
I don't think it was the GO I described in another post because later mainline through-routings on Franklin were almost always six cars.
Hi Chris:
You say that the picture was taken in 1965. Notice the long shadows cast by the light poles on the platforms. This might indicate late summer or autumn. I mention this for the following reason; on Sunday, August 22, 1965 there was a watermain break at Willoughby Street in Brooklyn which caused what I always have referred to as "The Great BMT Flood." Dekalb Avenue was flooded thereby cutting off all service between Manhattan and the Southern Section of the BMT.
On that Sunday the "QB" ran in two sections;
Ditmars Boulevard-Canal Street
Franklin Avenue-Coney Island.
By happy chance I was visting a friend in Brooklyn that day and rode both services and can verify the use of the QB signs.
The next day was Monday and Brighton trains were still running between Franklin Avenue and Coney Island but they were labeled "QT." Naturally I was out on Monday as well, this as being a somewhat younger railfan in the middle of summer this was a great opportunity to see many unusual services. (Great for railfans, lousy for thousands of regular commuters).
By the PM rush the line from Prospect Park to Dekalb Avenue was re-opened via bridge and there were three services running. The Brighton Express between 57 Street and Brighton Beach labelled Q, the Brighton Local via Bridge between Astoria and Coney Island labelled "QB" and a Broadway-Bridge-Brighton-Sea Beach service between 57 Street and 36 Street. I recall seeing both the Q and QB signs so I was riding R-27's at least some of the time. It was a rare chance to see the Q and QB running at the same time.
So it is possible that this picture was taken on Moday, August 22, 1965.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Makes sense. The photographer may have snapped that pic strictly because an unusual service was running. However, I can't imaging 4 car Brighton locals on a weekday during rush hours.
Supplemental schedule for Saturday service shows this happened April 21, 1962.
Elias
I don't know, but I remember when the '27s were new, and the cat's meow. They really were the finest cars I had ever set my eyes on.
AND I AINT THAT OLD!
At Sutphin the signal would not have cleared past R/W unless the tower had been swung the traffic, but since, aside from that, everything would be okay for the signal to clear on time, the lunar white will come on.
The school bus was just that: a school bus, with the windows completely cut out and holes cut into the top so that there is easy egress and divers don’t get trapped. Not tremendously interesting.
The helicopter is another story. It’s suspended in mid-water on a couple of pontoons, one above the tail and one above the main rotor. You can easily swim inside and around it, though it’s relatively cold underneath: 55°F today at the wheels (50'). It’s also fascinating to look at the Rube Goldberg mechanism that flies a helicopter, where the axis through which the blades rotate can be changed, as can the blade pitch. The main rotors have been removed, but the rest of the mechanism is still there. The tail rotors are in position (you can push on them and swim them round!)
Visibility has improved significantly over the past couple of years, mainly because zebra mussels were imported and have taken over most of the bottom. They provide very efficient water filtration. Visibility was around 50' at the helicopter today. Other parts of Dutch Springs have visibility that varies depending on whether students kick the bottom and stir up silt.
John
John
However, for people who are making their first open water dives, which was the purpose of this weekend’s activity, Dutch Springs is a much safer and controlled environment than the Atlantic Ocean!
Chuck Greene
I've never seen so many empty parking spaces on the Upper West Side -- on a Saturday night, yet.
mr. ants in pants
On the other hand being at home is great, if there's air conditioning.
I have yet to experience my ideal.
I have yet to experience my ideal.
You'll have a long wait to experience the heavy snow with mid-60's temps....
So I've experienced my ideal day often.
As for any day with snow, those are automatically the worst days of the year.
I take that back. I remember riding up to White Plains on the Harlem line when there was a light snow. It was beautiful. And it wasn't bad because the snow melted soon after it stopped falling.
A lot of stations accumulate snow, not just ones that are "open." All you need are those vents in the wall or ceiling that lead up to grates in the sidewalk. Fine snow will work its way down to the platform very easily. Just look at this photo, which shows the lower level of 96 St/CPW during a blizzard:
And here's a similar photo to David's:
Make that 2002.
I'm kind of disappointed about how it came out. Too bad I won't get another shot at that one this winter.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid54/pa3d6f978fd9d6926a2372bec4f2609c3/fc874ac8.jpg.orig.jpg
Sometihng must have happin along the way to make the trip from almost 2 Hours to 5 Hours OUCH!
Added on 07/07/2003
08 4 Av-9 St (F)
02 96 St (1/2/3/9)
01 96 St (B/C)
04 Broadway Junction (JLZ)
01 Rockaway Pkwy
03 East New York Yard
05 Livonia Av
04 New Lots Av
05 R-42
12 R-62A
15 R-143
Total: 60 Photos
Yes, definitly one of the worst transit crimes of the year.
my ideal is in the 20s with the snow. i prefer the cold weather over the hot.
I'd certainly take 20's over what we have now, but 60's are best of all.
On topic: Are NYC Subway cars adversely affected by hailstorms?
Dunno. One of my more vivid rail-related memories, however, is riding at the railfan window of a Metro-North Harlem Line train in 1996 or 1997 as it passed through a hailstorm near Mt. Kisco. It was spectacular!
Heat? Big deal! I did an hour of yard work this morning, including some heavy brush-cutting, then I went to the gym for 45 minutes. Of course, I now think I'm melting like the Wicked Witch in the Wizard of Oz, but that's another story ...
Chuck Greene
--Mark
Chaohwa
It seems that whenever Amtrak needs to test a new electric (a la the MARC HHP-8) they sit around for a bit.
MN Budds
NJT U34CH's
Or more recently: NJT GP40 #4103 and friend
Mark
http://www.subways.net/china/harbin.htm
http://www.hfiab.gov.cn/project/e/ywxm02.htm
it says light rail but according to my chinese friend it is going to look more like a subway because it runs underground. not sure what kind of vehicles would be used.
This webpage appears to say that JR East's subway services have been declared unconstitutional, and therefore will be suspended indefinitely until the Emperor of Japan could give the company a pardon. It's been a long time since I tried to read Japanese and I think I might have misunderstood what it said, but it has the words for "electric train" (denki tetzu) and "unconstitutional" (neshmo teztihu) next to each other in many locations. If any of you read Japanese you should try to come up with a more accurate translation...
Alta Vista
Accompany JR east Japanese construction section suspension and the bus vicarious execution transport which
* In the following area of JR east Japan train section suspension and the bus vicarious execution transport which accompany construction occur.
* Attendant upon this, time modification and driving et cetera of the temporary train are done. The area in the chart below the case of utilization please note.
Seems like they are just doing a bus substitution of some subway lines.
Service advisories:
6/20 Hanawa line service suspended between Araya-Shinmachi and Kazuno-Hanawa
6/29(first train to 8 am), 7/13(first train to 7 am) Elevated structure replacement on Tokaido main line between Shinbashi and Hamamatsucho. All main line service departs/terminates at Shinagawa. Please use local commuter lines for service between Tokyo and Shinagawa.
9/27 16:10 to 9/28 06:00 Distruption of service due to Chuo line grade separation work. Inbound track will be switched to the new elevated temporary track between Mitaka and Kokubunji. All main line Limited Express trains depart/terminate at Hachioji or Tachikawa. Many commuter trains suspended or have short runs. Please use substitutional bus service or other modes (*I think they mean the parallelling Seibu line or Keio line, but not directly mentioning them since they are the competition* Wado). Please refer to the linked PDF file below for details.
BTW, "electric train" is "densha" not "denki tetzu". "Denki tetsudo" means "electric railway". As for "unconstitutional" (neshmo teztihu), I don't know which part you are looking at.:-)
A real trip report will follow soon.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Wow, that thing has outboard disc brakes. looks like a silverliner. gas turbine has never worked particuarly well in transit applications and people went back to diesel electric and straight eletric.
A standard jet engine has at least two turbines in it, the compressor and the compressor power turbine. Just like the stroke of a 4 cycle engine, the air is taken in at the mouth of the jet, compressed in the compressor, then ignited and burned in the combustor, it then expands and flys through the compressor power turbine, which in turn powers the compressor (hence the term) via a shaft running the length of the engine right down the middle. The energy not removed from the the thrust by the need to spin the compressor power turbine (CPT) just shoots out the back, producing thrust. This is the most basic jet engine, the turbojet engine, just a series of turbines creating a jet. In any role other than producing thrust, these two components are called the engine's Core, since you can do all kinds of stuff with the thrust. Since Jet aircraft merely use the thrust for propulsion, they ride on the jet created a the nozzle of the engine, thus the name Jet. Turbojets may have many many compressor and CPT fans in them, a single turbine in the compressor won't do much to compress the air thus 5 or 6, maybe even more then 10 would be needed, they may also need to spin at different speeds, and rather than messing with some gearing, you'd just add another CPT set to turn faster, then one CPT spins one compressor section, the other at spins the other section at a different speed. Turbofans are a direct offshoot of turbojets, they just add another dedicated turbine, which spins a massive fan at the front of the turbine, this accelerates air past the engine, making it much more efficient and quieter.
A Gas Turbine is like a turbofan in that it too uses the core to get thrust, and then sticks another turbine unrelated to the compressor or CPT in the thrust. The point of this turbine, usually called the power turbine is to get as much energy out of the moving air (gas) as possible and convert it into some sort of mechanical energy, usually spinning something. In the GT-2 this would be turning a Generator, which would create power to turn the traction motors, Bombardier's JetTrain (aka Acela with the pantograph broken off), also takes this approach. In something like the Rhor Turbotrains that amtrak operate(s)(d) on the Hudson, the gas turbine directly powers the wheels, with the 3rd rail around NYPenn powering a separate traction motor that doesn't run most of the trip, really proof that the Turbotrains are completely misplaced on the empire corridor.
More likely they'd use Diesel, that's what the Rhors burn, and it's what BBD's JetTrain will burn should it ever be let out of Pueblo. Really so long as the burner cans are compatible with whatever you're trying to spray into there, and the pressure's high enough a gas turbine will burn it. Stationary and Marine turbines burn all kinds of junk, although it's my understanding that some power turbines burn Natural Petrol. I know navy destroyers using gas turbines for power (4 LM2500s, the same core as the CF6 turbofans off the 747) burn straight bunker C, the same stuff that the oil burning carriers and auxiliaries burn, and probably just one rung up the cracking tower from crude.
Hopefully I didn't confuse you any more than you already were, if I did, check www.howstuffworks.com, they in typical HSW.com fashion have several different descriptions of how Jets, Gas Turbines, and other turbine derived engines work, despite the fact that they're all mechanically the same.
*Yes I know it's not the Engish Major's themselves who screwwed it all up, but if it's a problem with English's imprecise manner, then gawd-durn it, I'm gonna blame the people who place the language's name on it. After all, who wrote the dictionaries? Sure wasn't the engineers!
Actually you didn't confuse me at all, in fact you just gave me a very interesting mechanical engineering lesson. Thanks!
GT-1 was a straight turbine -- and when it went back to Budd for modifications (i.e. additiona of third-rail equipment -- traction motors, shoes, etc.) it returned to LIRR as GT-2. When it was GT-1 it had orange ends.
"This station features ornate vent grills in the ceiling and has a closed northern exit which has a old high wheel turnstile at the top (it is barricaded at platform level). Another closed exit has corrugated windscreen in the ceiling where the stairs once were. There is new replacement tile covering up this former entrance - a lighter shade of green with a different, darker green border."
Where were these exits located above ground? Corner of Lafayette and South Elliott? Why were they closed? I'm guessing on account of low ridership.
Nope. Would be useful though. For queensboud serv., you have to crossunder the tracks.
Too bad they're not open -- the crossunder for access to the Queens-bound side has developed a truly rank stench in the last week or so.
Gotta agree on the crossunder stench. I'm guessing since there are no cameras monitoring the passage, people take the opportunity to urinate there.
Is Fulton St (IND Crosstown) the only station where Queeensbound riders have to enter at the Brooklyn bound fare control (the ONLY fare control) and then cross under? I always found it odd that no fare control exists on the Queensbound platform. Was it because there no space to build it, and thus the builders created a crossunder to the Brooklyn-side to exit?
I'm leaving now. I hope I see you out on the mainline! And bring water.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I know chapter 11 has the mad crazy skills. You seen them photos of the Q train and all that? Man, I can't wait to see his pix cuz I know that ish is gonna be hot yo!
Translation:
Indeed.
I'm aware Chapter 11 has good skills. Have you seen his pictures of the Q train and all? I can't wait to see his new pictures because I know they are going to look great.
:-)
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
The Around Great Britain, Album 1 set has shots of stations and trains around London, and some of the mainline activity where it parallels the Docklands Light Rail.
The Around Great Britain, Album 2 set continues these shots and has photos of Dublin light rail construction.
Both sets also contain a few bus pix for you busfans.
The Around Paris set contains photos from a locomotive and coach exhibit along the Champs-Elysees, which was going on while I was there, as well as shots along the #2 line.
The London Underground set has shots mostly from a beautiful day at South Kensington Station, which was the Tube stop near our hotel.
Finally, the Docklands Light Rail set contains many pix from a great railfan day on London's newest line.
Great pictures!
Visiting in August must have been hell, weather-wise. I loved my trip, and London was great, but I will say the British aren't very skilled at the air conditioning thing.
Mark
A couple of nitpicks - the "construction at St Pancras" picture is actually of the construction work on Kings Cross St Pancras underground station - the construction work on St Pancras main line station itself is further north, at the country end of the platforms. But the whole area is one huge building site anyway. Incidentally the Kings X St Pancras construction is the reason why your Circle Line trains are showing the unusual destination "Baker Street" - most weekends this summer the Circle/Met/Hammersmith & City line is not running between Liverpool Street and Baker Street because of the Kings X construction work, so the Circle Line is only three-quarters of a circle at weekends. Normally Circle Line trains show "Circle Line", since of course they have no terminus!
It's questionable whether Docklands LR is London's newest line - the Jubilee Line Extension opened in late 1999, and I can't quite remember whether the newest part of the DLR (the extension under the river to Greenwich and Lewisham) was before or after that. The Croydon Tramlink opened in summer 2000. The Docklands *will* be the newest again when the London City Airport branch opens - but only for a short time, since the Channel Tunnel Rail Link (CTRL) tunnel from Stratford to St Pancras is due to open in 2007.
Whic brings me on to this morning's paper, which reports that testing trips over phase one of the CTRL (from the Channel Tunnel portal across Kent to Ebbsfleet on the North Kent coast) are about to start, with 170-200 m.p.h. runs by Eurostar trains to test everything out.
Thanks guys, it was a hell of a trip.
If they did, I'm sure they'd be able to raise enough money to cure Polio (it is the March of Dimes).
I spent most of my time in 491, a little in 484 and none in 100 except to pass through.
: )
Mark
Mark
Mark
Having to shower every three hours....UGH! Nice to be out here in California and do it once a day, maybe twice if I have too many scumbags on the bus. Then I showeer as soon as I get home from the bus yard....
(1) metal fatigue occurs when the metal is subject to contunual stress and destressing cycles. since the redfish would be waaaay under water where the temperature isnt subject to daily shock through sunshine heating effects, i dont see how metal fatigure would occur. do fish contunally load and unload redbirds by sitting on one side of it and then unseating themsevles and sitting on the other side?
(2) while im not an expert on rusting i note that in ocean liners they paint ballast tanks used only to store sea water for a number of reasons. the toxic oxide paint repels limpets and other marine life that can cause havoc if they start growing on the hulls and also there is dissolved oxygen in water and also electrolytic reactions can occur if you have metal in an electrolyte (sea water -- has plenty of na+ and cl- to conduct electricity). therefore the redbird will rust, but probably very very slowly. why the hell do you think the titanic and the firzgerald are still there on the ocean bed and you can still go in them?
geez, high school chemistry comes in handy
aem7
aem7
(crushing only occurs if there are sponge like materials underwater -- steel is pretty solid, so as long as pressure is equal on all sides the hull would not be crushed. if the hull fails, it fails for reasons other than water pressure. the crushing you are thinking of (of, for example, a submarine) is because there are watertight compartments witin the sub and crushing occurs if the water fails to breach the seal before the structure fails)
Physics texts don't talk about shipwrecks.
--Mark
Still, other people have done the calculations and it will. AEM7 was talking as if it never will.
So other shipwrecks might survive forever, but there still is force acting upon it forcing it to collapse. GRAVITY still works underwater.
Gravity is much weaker than the structural forces of steel and will never cause the Titanic or a Redbird to collapse.
Rust will weaken the structural forces so much that gravity can cause a collapse.
Rust requires oxygen. The oxygen bound in the H2O molecule will not do. However, water has air dissolved in it, not bound in on a molecular level. The colder the water, and the shallower, the more dissolved air. Fish breath this dissolved air; they do not get air from the H2O molecule. Underwater steel rusts in the presence of this air, but slowly if the depths are great, since there isn't that much of it down deep.
You see Redbirds, the rusticles see lunch!
Mark
John
Mark
-Robert King
-Robert King
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
-Robert King
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
Of the big lake they called 'Gitche Gumee'
Superior it's said, never gives up her dead
When the skies of November turn gloomy
Mark
Water on it's own will not rust something, if you took pure water with no flourine, Chlorine or anything in it and submerged carbon steel in it, there'd be almost no problem, only the H3O and OH would attack it, and they're in almost negligable amounts. Rain drops, even neutral, non-acid rain ones cause rust at the edges of the water droplet, because that's where the oxygen, water and iron come together, the middle of the droplet will stay solid while the outside rusts away. And in the sea there's dissolved oxygen, lots of Sodium and Chlorine, and all kinds of other chemicals, all of which will eat the redfish pretty quickly. Still they should be good for 50 some years of fish homes, possibly longer.
Steel rusts underwater very quickly. Salt water is quite corrosive to a lot of unprotected metals. However, iron oxide is not a protective coating on iron or steel the way that aluminum oxide is on aluminum metal say, so the steel will eventually rust all the way through. Typically then the wreck will collapse because of water movement due to a severe storm.
Since ships are constructed from much heavier gauge steel (1/4"+) than the redbirds’ skin, they last much longer. I would give the Redbirds about 25 years before they are a rubble pile on the bottom: which is still useful as a home for aquatic creatures, just not so photogenic and identifiable as former subway cars.
John
Is it fair to say that the reefs will last longer once NYCT starts dumping stainless steel cars?
In time…
What was the first NYC car not to have asbestos?
Mark
John
However, I would agree that having a covering of mussels (other invertebrates don’t really count: anenomes and sea stars don’t have a wide enough reach!) will delay the collapse by some amount of time. I just don’t have any information on the timescales of such things.
John
The term you should have used is corrosion. Yes, the car-bodies will eventually collapse because the structure was weakened due to corrosion. That's due to the chemicals in the ocean that react with the metal to oxidize it. Eventually the strength of the steel cannot withstand the water pressure, so it collapses.
Maybe the sea-life growing on it will protect it from corrosion, but that's not an area I'm familiar with.
But water is heavier than air, especially at depth. Wouldn't that push down on anything in the ocean? That's specifically what I was thinking of.
:-) Andrew
The thing is, pressure acts equally at all surfaces of the object when to object is standing still (something is stationary when the net sum of all the forces equal zero). Which means that if you have 200 MPa of water pressure acting downward on the stationary object, then you have 200 MPa of pressure acting upward trying to push it up. Since the downward and upward are equal, they cancel each other out (-200+200=0), which means the gravity isn't a factor. So to correct myself, gravity isn't negligible, but irrelevant.
That is why we surface dwellers aren't being crushed by the air pressure above us. Remember, air is just a fluid like water is, all the principles are same. We have thousands of Newtons of air on top of us, but since the pressure acts on all surfaces of our bodies, we are being pushed up at an equal rate as being pushed down.
I'm glad somebody brought that up. Even in the ocean there is dissolved oxygen (without it fish would suffocate!) as well lots and lots of salt that will do the same thing to the Redbirds as it does to your car on snowy highways that have been salted. I'm also glad you used the word "corrosion" because even if the steel doesn't speficifically react to form iron(III) oxide (rust) it can just as easily become iron(III) chloride or other compounds.
Mark
Yeah, but no matter what Fred calls you, bei mir, you are still a Mensch! :-)
Tom
I'll tell you how ironic this is. Marty and I were trading some angry barbs when he first crossed trails on Subtalk but soon became good friends. I wonder sometimes why I just don't start out on friendly terms with my friends. This has happened so much to me in my life that I wonder if it just part of my life's script.
isnt that part of the natural getting-to-know-you process. issues dont get talked about unless people get annoyed and when issues get talked about thats whne people discover that they agree, or change their opinion such that they agree. thats why they say a relationship isnt real until you have had your first fight. the funny thing is that rachel and i have not really had a single fight yet we always end up slightly pissed but we never yelled at one another. between guys and guys though tend to yell a little more and i always yelled at my friends before they figure out that we are really agreeing. that's when you really appreciate the friendship becayse you know the other guy really agrees and isn't agrreing just to be agreeable. i hate those social fishes who like to agree just to be agreeable and they are so superficial and slimy as an eel.
aem6
I gotta agree with ya 200 percent.
Hmm, did he post that just to be social? :-)
Tom
In the summer months in NYC, the subway platforms can be extremely hot and uncomfortable. Especially if one needs to wear a suit & tie for work.
So I've always wondered: Will NYC ever join modern civilization, and have air conditioned subway stations? Or at least better ventilation for hot summer months? In 10 years? 20 years? Never? Is there any way to make NYC subway stations cooler during the summer months??
It is Air Cooling. There is a big difference.
In air cooling chilled water is passed thru pipes which pass thru grids. Air is forced thru these grids and comes out cooler (and a bit moist). We have this system where I live in Co-Op City and it is fine but it is still not as good as A/C.
The GC subway station is getting fed chilled water from the system used in GCT above.
In Air Conditioning the air is cooled by passing thru chemically chilled grids (usually using Freon or other coolant lile a refrigerator). The moisture is also removed.
The system in the subway station is not that good unless you are near or directly underneath one of the blower fans. The mistake they made was putting the vents directly underneath instead of on the sides and blowing downward.
The best method for dealing with sweltering platforms is to not think about it [highly unlikely since riders are restless in heat]. Ok the real best method is to install fans in the platforms, hey its better than nothing.
Well bro, we's a stinky lifeform!
No that's what happens when people don't have proper hygiene :-\.
Don't get me wrong; I concur (and am happy) that us Norteamericanos are probably the worlds biggest consumers of "personal hygiene" products. Ideally, anyway, we are all seeking to not provoke our neighbors with advertant or inadvertant transfers of data-laden secretions of one type or another. Thus we enable a more balanced and peaceful social intercourse. Say what you will, I'd bet OUR subways smell a hell of a lot better than those in most other countries.
Oh yeah that's a given ;-D. One time I was on a R42 L the train car was frosty cold then it got packed and the A/C just evaporated and the musty smell took over :-X [it was awful]. That's true I'm SURE that our systems smells a far better [in terms of b.o. than other systems all over the world].
As it is now, subway stations are almost certainly hotter than when originally opened. This is because new equipment is more powerful and generates more heat energy. Then on top of that, the air conditioning on the subway cars gathers heat from the interior of the cars and adds its own heat and where does the heat go? Into the tunnels and stations, of course.
So now you have to take the heat already in the stations, add the heat from the subway cars and pump it all out into the environment. Very energy inefficient.
Think of it this way. Suppose you have an air conditioner in your bedroom (the subway car), and instead of venting it outside you vent it into your living room (the station). Now to cool the living room you need an air conditioner twice as powerful to remove the living room heat PLUS the bedroom heat.
Actually it is not that bad. There is no reason to cool the tunnels. What you need to have is an area of the station (probably around the turnstyles area) where you have A.C., then to access the platforms you would need to go through a screen door. There is no reason to be on the platform until the train is about to arrive. Some track circuit could alert riders to an oncoming train. During rush hours, the screen door would be permanently kept open to discourage people from lounging in the ticketing area. AEM7
Howard Beach JFK is exactly this. Air conditioned waiting area, beeping and train out the window alert you when to go down.
Actually on the Queens IND every station has at least one and often two, except for Northern, 46st, and probably 36st (at least not manhattan bound). Lots of boring local stations have them, just not in manhattan :·).
You're right though, not necessarily local but direct-to-platform stations don't have them. Although when I did think of those, I thought of Central Park West and 86st/Lex and Nostrand/Fulton, which have annunciators on the upper level for whatever's on the lower level. Completely forgot about street-platform stations without lower levels, such as most IRT local stops in Manhattan, 4th ave subway, et al.
So maybe, 80% have at least one annunciator for something in the station complex. That leaves 93 stations without annunciation of any kind.
..The trains also have regenerative braking systems which cycle power back into the third rail, reducing the heat given off in stations..
http://brooklyn.about.com/library/weekly/aa072200a.htm
Is it worth the tradeoff? You decide.
At least during the heavy travel times, most people will spend more time on trains than on platforms, so the tradeoff's pretty clear.
NYCT however drags its feet into any "new innovation". One train of R-38s and only half the R-40s were air conditioned, finally with the R-42 the TA realized that fans weren't enough anymore!
Take a look at this picture, on top of the temp PATH station's roof. Those look like AC compressors, right?
If the station is fully enclosed (except for the tunnel entrance and exit) then there should not be too much of a problem.
Besides from the photo you can't really tell how big they are.
Well, what about the LA MTA subway stations? Are they a.c.? Gotta be hotter over there anyway, or at least hotter more often than what we get in the summer. Maybe, four months out of the year.
-Robert King
It's worth the cost.
On the other hand, staffed stations aren't, and yet they're still there.
However the most crowded subway/transfer stations, Union Square, Penn Station, GCT etc should get air conditioning.
How about heaters for outdoor stations in the winter?
Not a bad idea and wouldn't be as costly as installing A/C but they have heaters on the mezzanine level and that might be considered to be "sufficient".
See http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=523818
Jimmy :)
Anyhow, I'm glad you had a nice time at Coney Island. I was on the Q and the N today and I saw a lot of beach-goers. I'm sure the scenery there was spectacular. Was the beach wall-to-wall umbrellas, all the way back to the boardwalk?
Jimmy
Was the R-40-M in service? I thought only R-68's run on weekends.
>>I have lost a lot of weight and continue to do so, but the lose is good for my training which will start pretty soon.<<
I have found that whenever I lose weight, I cannot eat as much as I did when I was heavier. People say it's something about the "stomach shrinking". If that happens to you, that contest sould be extremely difficult!
Jimmy
No 1 Broadway Local 242 Street/Broadway - South Ferry (Outer Loop)
No 2 7 Avenue Express Dyre Av or East 180 St - Flatbush Avenue
(Express 96 St-Chambers St)
No 3 7 Avenue Express 145 Street - New Lots Av
(Express 96 St-Chambers St
No 4 Lexington Av Express Woodlawn Road-Utica Avenue
(Express 125 St-Utica Av)
No 5 Lexington Av Express East 241 St-South Ferry (Outer Loop)
(Express 125 St-Brooklyn Bridge
No 6 Lexington Av Local Pelham Bay Park-Brooklyn Bridge
No 7 Flushing Local Main Street-Times Square
3 Avenue Local Guh Hill Road-149 Street
42 Street Shuttle Times Square-Grand Central
No 8 now part of BMT 1
No 9 ran late nights only
Bowling Green Shuttle did not run on Sundays.
Equiptment in use; Lo-V Motors, Lo-V Trailers, Steinway Motors, World's Fair-Steinway Motors, R-12, R-14, R-15, R-21, R-22, R-26, R-28, R-29 Redbirds (arrived in May)
BMT Division
No 1 (QB) Bway-Brighton Lcl via Bridge Astoria-Coney Island (Platform B) Express Bway Canal St-Dekalb Avenue)
No 2 (RR) Bway-4 Avenue Local 57 St/7 Av-95 St/4 Av
No 3 (TT) West End Shuttle 36 St/4 Av-Coney Island (Platform D)
No 4 (N) Bway-Sea Beach Express 57 St/7 Av-Coney Island (Platform A)
Express 57 St-Dekalb AV)
No 5 Culver Shuttle 9 Av-Ditmas Av
No 7 Franklin Av Shuttle --- Franklin Av-Prospect Park
No 11 Myrtle AV Local-- Metropolitan Avenue-Bridge/Jay Streets
No 15 Jamaica Local 168 Street-Broad Street
No 16 14 St-Canarsie Lcl--Rockaway Parkway- 8 Avenue
Nos 6,11 and 13 no longer operated
Nos 10 and 14 ran weekdays only
No 8 now part of No 1 and No 9 now IRT 7
Equiptment: Standard Motors (A,BT and B Configurations), D-Type Triplexes, R-16,R-27,R-30 and R-30A
IND Division
Rt A 8 Avenue Express 207 St-Euclid Av or Lefferts Blvd
(Express 168 St-Canal St)
Rt AA 8 Avenue Local 168 Street-Hudson Terminal
Rt D 6 Avenue Express 205 St-Church Av or Coney Island (Platform C)
(Express 145 St-59 St)
Rt E 8 Avenue Express 179 Street/Jamaica-Hudson Terminal
(Express 71 Av-Queens Plaza
Rt F 6 Avenue Express 179 Street/Jamaica-34 St/6 Av
(Express 71 Av-Queens Plaza
RT GG Bklyn-Queens Local 71 Avenue-Smith/9 Sts
Rt HH Fulton St Local Euclid Av _Rockaway Park or Far Rockaway
NOTE: Rockaway Shuttle actually did not start carrying HH signs until October)
Rts C no longer operated
Rts BB and CC ran weekdays only.
Equiptment: R-1, R-4, R-6, R-7, R-7A, R-9 and R-10
Hudson and Manhattan Railroad
33-HOB
33-JSQ
HT-HOB
HT-JSQ
HT-NWK
Equiptment: Classes A,B,C,D,E, F, G,H, K
PRR Owned MP-38,MP-38A, MP-52
NOTE: Not all the oldest classes may have been in service.
Staten Island Rapid Transit Railway Company
Tottenville Local--Saint George-Tottenville
Equiptment: MUE-1
Public Service Coordinated Transport of New Jersey
Newark City Subway
#7 City Subway- Pennsylvania Station-Franklin Av
Equiptment: Ex Twin Cites's PCC
Ferry Services;
New York City Department of Marine & Aviation
Rt Staten Island Ferry - Whitehall St,Man-St George,SI
Rt Bklyn-Staten Island Ferry St George,SI-69 Street,Bklyn
Rt North Brother's Island Ferry East 134 St, Bronx-North Brothers Is.
Rt Rikers Island Ferry - East 134 St, Bronx-Rikers Island
Erie-Lackawanna Railroad
Rt Hoboken Ferry - Barclay St, Man - Hoboken
Central Railroad on New Jersey
Rt Communipaw Ferry Liberty St,Man- Jersey City
Rockaway Boat Lines
Rt Sheepdip Bay - Breezy Point-Rockway Point
Larry, RedbirdR33
Not during the daytime; the two ran more or less as follows:
Sunday
12mid-6am East 241 St-New Lots Av
6am-8pm Dyre Av-Flatbush Av
6am-12mid East 180 St-Flatbush Av
Larry, RedbirdR33
BMT Equitmeny add Q-Type Motors and Trailers.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry, RedbirdR33
Those were some great summers in the 60's back before Chrystie Street. There was a lot of new equiptment coming in but much of the old stuff was still around and you could definitly tell each of the three divisions apart. And we had the last two els, one each for the IRT and the BMT. I often refer to that period as a watershed before everything changed with the opening of Chrystie Street.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Fred: One thing you could say about the Triplexes was that they died in a hurry. It seemed like one day they were there and the next day they were gone. The Standards and the Lo-Vs took some time in their passing.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I know that the IRT used #8 again briefly for the third ave el, but that had to end in 1973. It seems to me that they should fill in #8 again the next time they add a new service. I surely don't think anyone would be confused.
To what era does this signage date? Was this the IND standard?
see pics here
And that is why the doors don't work properly, the automated announcements don't work properly, and the signs don't work! Aside from that, the equipment is pristine and state of the art! ;-)
Jimmy
The downside of course is even reasonably smart NJT commuters no longer know what to expect in terms of door placement. Just because the first 5 cars had center doors doesn't mean the one that stops right in front of you will. A solid consist with no center doors maybe 2 people per car will expect one. But these mixed things, people scramble all over the platform.
Only two trains running this morning!
Jimmy
Jimmy
They buried the signal cables about two years ago. And, welded rail has already been installed on about half the curves on the line.
I noticed another little change a few weeks ago. A long time ago the line obviously had two tracks. All the way along the gravel is spread around wide enough for a second track to be put in place. There are many tiny little bridges that span the numerous little creeks and streams, along the way. All of them have an extra set of disused ties, and all the associated hardware, right where the second track would normally be. At the Tuxedo station there's a clearly visible abandoned platform. It's now mostly cover with weeds, but if you look right where you'd expect to have a platform for the nonexistent second track, there it is.
Well, I noticed a couple of weeks ago that all the bridges now have a little narrow maintenance walkway installed, the same exact kind you got running between the tracks across the NYC subway bridges, and Els. Not exactly sure what purpose they serve here, some of the little bridges are only ten or twelve feet long.
Over all, the ridership on the Port Jervis line has at least doubled over the last decade. Back then, the parking lot at Harriman was, on weekdays, maybe 4/5th full. A couple of years ago they repainted the entire lot, and squeezed in an extra hundred parking spots by shrinking them. That didn't help for long. People now must park on the grass, again. Last week they opened a new small lot at Tuxedo, $1.50 a day, and posted signs at Harriman telling people to drive over there. That'll probably hold the tide for another 2-3 months, until they finish building the expansion lot at Harriman that almost doubles the number of parking spots there. They're also adding an extra lane to the exit ramp.
At the rate this is going, they'll need to soon start thinking about building a second track, at least as far up as Harriman. Maybe even a small yard there (there's plenty of real estate, out in the boonies). There not a lot of people that go all the way to the end of the line; the trains mostly empty out at Harriman; half of what's left gets off at Middletown.
I can tell you this, though: after the new signals were supposedly put in, I can't say that I've noticed any noticeable improvement. Just like ten years ago, when a thunderstorm blows through lower Hudson valley you can count on at least one signal keeling over, and screwing everything up.
And, there's always the chance of getting stuck somewhere in no-mans-land, and arriving at PeeJay an hour late. You'll have just enough time to step out behind the bushes, to take a piss, before you have to head back.
Delays of an hour, or more, especially on weekends, especially in inclement weather, are not that uncommon up here. And, you're lucky if you get away with an hour's worth of cooling your heels. About four months ago, the crew for the Saturday evening train out of PeeJay just didn't show up! I don't know what happened to all the poor folks (including the mob that was coming back from Woodbury Commons), I was lucky enough to get a ride to Suffern, where I caught the next local. I hope they could at least manage to find a bus for those poor souls, and they didn't have to wait five hours for the late-night local.
Jimmy
Definitive: I will.
I guess I'll go get a weekly transpass if it's going to be outragiously hot the week after next (which, given it's july, it should be, but because I buy the pass, it will be friggin beautiful, 75 and sunny with low humidity), since 14.00 round trip on SEPTA (anywhere status on the weekend!) plus a weeks worth of rides makes it worth it.
I guess for now I'm going, if something turns up in the next two weeks I'll let you know I'm not going as soon as possible
I think I am leaning towards the 26th as a better day for me.
Next stop: Short Beach
Peace,
ANDEE
Well yeah but...heck, the development indicates the viability of the line. I fully understand the many laments railfans express regarding vanishing infrastructure. Got a few a those meself...
But still glad about the upgrading. This IS a line you can get to by taking a ferryboat from the Financial District. Historic stuff, and it's not just a museum...no offense. So if the clickety-clack and lineside appearance is altered...at least the mileage posts still mean exactly what they say, as opposed to, fer instance, the LIRR with the L.I.C. terminal missing mile discrepancy.
The Main Line already runs through Secaucus Transfer and it is mostly completed, but NJT will not open it until PATH WTC reopens.
The Bergen line will be rerouted to serve ST in August, and will stop there for former Harmon Cove passengers. HC is being abandoned in order to allow the Bergen and Pascack Valley lines to be rerouted through ST.
Wait unntil the Bergen line riders "find out" about this. You think a similar "brew-hah-ha" will erupt "after-the-fact" like it did in Montclair?
So were the Montclair Connection plans, I assume.
It would make much more sense just to have Spring Valley trains stop at Harmon Cove. They don't need new equipment, and Harmon Cove doesn't really need anything more than the peak-direction-only service.
This makes too much sense. Probably that's why it won't happen.
And, yes, I expect a lot of bitching when all Main/Bergen/Port Jervis people find out that they now have an extra stop.
Except for the ones who actually want to go to midtown.
There may be more bitching because hordes of former bus customers for midtown suddenly start taking the trains. This could double or triple the volume on the lines that used to only go to Hoboken.
Actually I see 3 reasons why they chose to do it this way...
1. The 2% of people who will be using this to get from the Newark Div. to Hoboken will not have to flip a coin as to which end of the station to run to.
2. Less elevators, platforms, lighting, infrastructure in general to worry about. At minimum one additional elevator would have been necessary.
3. Ever since the accident at the current splitting point NJT has had a desire to eliminate that interlocking.
What accident?
But how are Harmon Cove passengers going to get to ST? I don't see any public access routes for cars or shuttle buses to use.
Don't consider me in choosing a date; I may not be able to make the 26th either. I appreciate your giving me every consideration. I suspect it's because (a) we're close railfan friends; (b) you value my mature perspective or (c) you need a ride to Hamilton.
Whichever date is selected, I'll attend if I can, but they're all doubtful.
....and then start praying?
Jimmy
No. The "farewell" refers to some track re-routing. The Port Jervis service has good (and growing) ridership.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Im trying to understand precisely what the trackage changes will be when Secausus Transfer station comes online. I understand the Harmon Cove station will be abandoned, but does that include the trackage too? Perhaps the simplest explanation, if it is indeed correct, is that the interlocking between the Main and Bergen County Lines will be moved west, hence bypassing/abandoning a short segment of the Bergen County Line.
Can you (or anyone) embellish or clarify? I didn't think the new station would affect any trackage.
THANX
Conrad Misek
Boston
The part of the Bergan County line between the Hackensack River bridge and today's Bergan Junction, including Harmon Cove station, will be history.
I brought up an interesting question about a month ago. With the transfer station having high level platforms, and the Pascack Valley line running equipment without traps, how will that stop be managed?
On this topic, yesterday Metro North announced the schedule for a Pascack Valley express starting August 4th. I will have to find time to ride it.
An interesting point to make is that Harmon Cove is just a few hundred feet south of where the Bergen Line will turn onto the new trackage. Closing the station may have not been required as part of this reroute.
Right now, Main Line has three tracks between the Secaucus station, and the current Main/Bergen fork. One of the three tracks is out of service at the moment, or at least as of earlier this week when I rode through the area the third time.
By the luck of the draw, I haven't taken the Main Line route in about 5-6 months, so I don't know much of what's been done recently on the Main Line side of things. On the Bergen side the new tracks at Harmon Cove still haven't been connected yet -- as of earlier this week -- so they're going to go down straight to the wire.
I can tell though, from looking towards the Main Line as I head up Bergen, that it appears to me like the street grade crossing on the Main Line, just north of the ST station platforms, is about to be eliminated and replaced by a new bridge. I can see looking west (while going north at 55MPH) that there's something that looks like a bridge growing there, and the process of elimination doesn't leave many other possibilities...
There's another freight line switch about two miles south of Harmon cove, and a few hundred feet north of the existing Main/Bergen split. Both freight lines appear to be regularly used.
They might rip out one of the tracks, and leave the other one to handle freight.
Frankly NJT should have left things as is and simply installed platforms on the current Bergen Line alignment that connected to the north end of the Secaucas Transfer station. The ST nearly spans the entire gap b/t the two lines, it would have been very feasible and much cheaper. Now we have a slow, curvy stretch of track to negioiate.
Are you related in any way to Martin Van Nostrand?
Watch: I can get this thread back to transit.
The English in the 1500s (as well as before and since) were notorious for mucking up foreign names. They couldn't keep straight the difference between the residents of the Spanish Netherlands (who spoke a language those people called Hollandisch) and the residents of the 100s of principalities of the former Holy Roman Empire (who spoke a language those residents called Deutsch).
So they called the Hollanders "Dutch", which was a corrpution of Deutsch, the German word for German.
How is this related to transit? The English also put up a memorial in honor of a visiting dignitary from Spain, El Infante de Castille. They so mucked that name up they called the place Elephant and Castle, giving us the current London Underground station name.
Now THAT is an interesting bit of trivia!
The first one would be more interesting if it wasn't so obvious.
subfan
Not quite; Holland is one of two regions (provinces?) in the Netherlands - I can't recall the name of the other region right now.
Flanders.
:-) Andrew
Yes, I'm Doctor van Nostrand.
"Yes, I'm Doctor van Nostrand."
Hi. I from VanDeLey Industries. We're an import and export firm. Don't ask...
At least that's what I've been able to figure out from reading today's Subtalk threads.
Got it!
Yes, there were certainly fences in the way.
Here's another terrorist -- oops, I mean photographer -- trying to aim through the fence:
Speaking of which the first looks like its a Slant dive bombing into the ground.
Free crossovers were restored when the new headhouse across the street opened in October 2002.
Bill "Newkirk"
The glass one across the street is new.
Bill "Newkirk"
No one heard anything, so no one helped her -- everyone feels terrible about that.
The previous serious crime in Windsor Terrace also involved being followed home from the subway. An old woman was followed home from a cash machine in Manhattan, on the F train, to her home where she was pushed in when she unlocked the door and murdered.
Stories like these make you wonder whether New York's famously low crime rate of recent years is heading back up. There seems to be some evidence pointing in just that direction. It could be that the police are spending so much time worrying about a (nonexistent) terrorist threat, doing things like harassing innocent railfans, that "regular" criminals are facing less pressure.
In any event, the best way of avoiding "followed home" crimes like these two is through a better awareness of one's surroundings. The victim in this latest one, being a hospital intern, probably had been working for many hours and was quite out of it when she was on her way home. She may not have realized she was being followed until it was too late.
She said she felt like she was being followed as soon as she left the train ststion but as soon as she was near her 10 Av home, that's when this crime happened. She was coming from a hospital in the city in where she works as a medical intern.
Or if it ever went down. Just like lateness in the subway, all you know about is what's reported. I'm sure like NYCT has to downgrade lateness, the NYPD has a system of manipulating the facts in order to downgrade a crime.
Which may be due to greater reporting rather than more actual crimes. Murder rates are considered the most reliable indicators of overall crime rates because virtually all of them come to the police's attention, hence the numbers aren't affected by changes in the propensity of victims to report offenses. Auto theft is a useful number too, as almost all are reported due to insurance reasons.
One thing about New York's crime rate -- rape was below average here even when things were at their worst. Perhaps because there aren't as many opportunities like this one where no one is around. The big crime declines in recent years have been in categories in which NYC is far above average (ie. robbery).
http://www.arts-entertainment-recreation.com/Recreation/Food/
Unfortunately, from 12:00 a.m to 6:00 a.m. there was no such place in Windsor Terrace. At any other time someone might happen along, but not at that time. She could have stayed in the subway and gone over to the booth, but she said she felt like she was being followed after she got out.
If she had been able to scream, someone might have heard, and people would have come out. But I could see someone being unwilling to scream just because they sensed they were being followed, and then found themselves to have made a big fuss over nothing.
So I'm not sure what the lesson is. We could try to set up an overnight citizen patrol, but after a few years of sleepless nights in which nothing happens I doubt we could keep it up. If it is going to be several years between incidents, the criminals can outlast us.
That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while on this board. NY is not so dangerous that someone should think twice about walking at night.
A few weeks ago, a woman decided not to go through with a gang initiation, and they were going to attack her. Her cousin came to her rescue, and was promptly shot and stabbed repeatedly. This happened in braod daylight.
Perhaps it isn't safe to be outside anytime.
Nonsense bravado. Would I want my daughter carrying a gun, and trying to pull it out of her purse after being jumped from behind? The result might just as easily have been her own death.
The illegality of carrying guns has permitted the NYPD to drive guns off the street, since being caught with one is a no-defense route to a long jail sentence. So the woman didn't have a gun, but neither did the assailant.
The rising confidence that guns are not likely to be present means that if anyone had heard, people would have come out and attacked the attacker. Not so if this was Dodge City. People would have ducked behind the walls and waited for the police to arrive. The police themselves would have approached carefully.
There are more non-criminals that criminals. Guns are an equalizer --for the criminals. Fewer guns make crimes like this one more difficult to pull off.
Pretty much true. It's worth noting that the mainly southern and western states where gun permits are easily available tend to have higher crime rates than states where guns are less available.
Even so, there's an exception that proves every rule, and this case may be one of them. It sounds as if the victim was not ambushed, but knew for some time that she was being followed. Merely displaying a gun, had she been carrying one, undoubtedly would have scared off the attacker. Again, though, this was an unusual case.
Where did you get that idea? Everyone out there has statistics to show that more guns either reduce crime or raise it. It's pretty hard to come to your conclusion when you can find any type of stat to prove or disprove your point.
Women who try using these "defense sprays" against attackers rarely are successful. Most often the attacker simply wrestles it away from the woman and may very well use it on her. If the woman does manage to get off a spray, it generally misses the attacker or doesn't have much effect on him.
Mark
Any animal (including a human) that close to the ROW qualifies as endangered. It does not have to be part of an endangered species.
Tom
I assumed he ment "endangered" as in soon to be 12-9 or deer me, or whatever the might call it out there.
Elias
I think somebody also felt that I was endangered for also trespassing, but a chain link fence separated me from the railroad.
Chaohwa
: )
Mark
--Mark
:)
*Do note that the 200 ton, mile or two long freight trains do not require anything near Tier I for the crew, why are they so different? Do we have superman in the cab of every freight train?
See the first four photos on this Webshots page.
All the photos:Click here and choose July 06, 2003
Some highlights, if you are in a rush:
I think our favorite "Queen of the Underground" is the T/O of the above pictured work train
Terrorist wannabe...
BTW, is the 4th photo from the bottom an example of the melting pot of choices of women we have in the city?
See this is good. Unlike the photo of the "14th St" girl, now if someone's not happy with one, they just look to the next one.
(and I didn't even mention the usual mystical chix comment that someone always brings up)
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I must be getting old. I looked at that photo and thought it looked like a dip's dream of paradise. :-)
Tom
Also, I really took about 267 photos today, but I have 37 photos of buses I haven't cropped yet and there were a few photos I didn't post because they weren't worthy :)
Damn. even if I set my camera to continuous shooting mode and stood on the platform I probably wouldn't match that.
I got one yesturday too, as well as the flats and the loco.
Burst mode is when the photos are taken in bursts: automatically, one after the other.
BTW, isn't that crane blocking traffic in the opposite direction?
Did the "terrorist wannabe" leave that note on the sign or was it already there?
The sign by the other staircase said that it would be closed beginning 7/3. Good thing they didn't close that one on schedule.
Bill "Newkirk"
********************************************************************
This is a really facinating in depth look at what really went on when your find your Amtrak train arriving 50 minutes late.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06302003.shtml#What
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The problem is that California won't have any money available for about the next thousand years.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06302003.shtml#California
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Yeah, wasn't it last month we were getting all those glossy HSR reports from the Sunshine state?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06302003.shtml#No
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Don't we all?
httphttp://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06302003.shtml#N.C.
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This is getting more and more pathetic. What next, Township plans for TGV system?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06302003.shtml#Michigan
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A step closer than last week, but still no talk of funding.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06302003.shtml#BART
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I really think they could have found a different name.
httphttp://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06302003.shtml#KCS
Anyway,after assisting the fellow confused as hell passenger's,I went down to 9St in Brooklyn then hopped on the B75 bus,NF #846 and took it to Smith-9Sts and then took the G train to Court Sq and hopped on a E train and took that to Roosevelt Av where I caught up to an R train and took that to Woodhaven Blvd.
After eating my dinner at Queens Center,I hopped on the Q29 bus and took it to 82St where I hopped on the 7 train and took that to QBP and then took the B61 bus to Williamsburg and then the B39 across the Williamsburg to Essex St,then the M14A to 7Av and finally the 1 train home.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
#4 Sea Beach Fred
Next stop on Fred's favorite train---Pacific Avenue (AFTER WE CROSS THE MANNY B STARTING NEXT YEAR. I AM COUNTING THE MONTHS.)
No wonder Sea Beach line fans have short term memory, it's Pacific STREET, not Avenue.
Next stop on the Q express, Atlantic Avenue. Please stand clear of the closing doors. (Doors close shut)
I like tapered sides better because they break up the plainness of flat sides. Looking from bottom to top, a tapered side gives more features for the viewer to analyze, so you look at the car longer. Horizontal stripes also look better on a tapered car. It enhances the tapering point. The 142's stripes look like they were placed there in order to break up the bareness of the featureless steel. If the 143 has stripes, it would look like a part of the body and not just some stick-on tape.
Another major plus for me is that tapered sides make the car body itself look more slimmer and sexy. Take a look at the photos of the 142 and 143 I linked to. The 142 is narrower, but because of the flat sides, it actually looks wider than the 143. While wider cars are better for practical purpose, narrow cars look better to me, and tapered sides give me the best of both worlds.
However, they also consume interior space, which is at a premium on A Division cars, both because they're narrow and because they're a bit too popular for their own good. I'm quite glad the R-142's don't have tapered sides. OTOH, the red stripes sure are tacky.
The ribbed sides are also bad because dirt collects in the grooves easier.
As for the original question, I think I prefer the tapered R-143.
Mark
-Robert King
Mark
The 142's stripes look like they were placed there in order to break up the bareness of the featureless steel.
I know. The R-142's do look quite bare from the sides. They should have made the 142's look like the R110a. They could have at least added the R62's steel stripes.
Mark
The R-142/142As red stripes are there to indicate the presence of wheelchair seating in that particular car. Hence, on a 10 car train, th 1st, 5th, 6th and 10th cars would have the stripe.
Peace,
ANDEE
Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
And does it actually have Wheelchair accessable space?
Peace,
ANDEE
Why was this done to 1 car only?
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Does anyone know anything more?
Mark
Wayne
J trainloco talked about how the sides slant out and back on some B division cars. The CQ312 has that, plus a gentle curve.
Jersey Mike likes 'em ribbed for his pleasure :-), and this car has that.
Michalovic said he likes stripes when they accented steel strips, and there are stripes that span along the widest part of the car
Peter Rosa doesn't like the stark and utilitarian look of the flat sides, the 312 has ribbed sides, an accent stripe, black around the windows that looks clean and not too busy.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_21463.jpg
MikeF likes those "porches" to fill in the gap caused by the bottom curve.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_21460.jpg
R142 #2 doesn't like squarish and boring cars, and the 312 does not have square lines.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_21427.jpg
Can anyone find a better combo of the thing mentioned in this thread? Did I miss any features?
Erythrornithophiles will disagree.
That's one greatpiece of Ancient Greek wordsmithing, there!
Mark
All in all, I'd have to say the best looking tapered car is the R42.
:-) Andrew
How do you feel about the R-38? Am I the only one who finds it very attractive, inside and out?
Probably. I hate 'em. They're better than R-44's, I suppose, but I prefer R-32's.
As for R-42's, they WERE nice, when they had the blue stripe, but now that they've lost it and they're all rusted on the roofs, they look horrible.
Ill agree with that.
As for R-42's, they WERE nice
I just can't get into that inset door, even with the stripes and being new. I like the plug door on the R44/46, makes it look much better.
:-) Andrew
The R42's aren't so bad. The R40 series is just disgusting. Both cars look like they were put together with shoddy workmanship, but the R40's look way worse. And I've never seen a car series with doors that get stuck so frequently. In my book, a redbird ranks higher than these.
On the outside I'll give you that but the duct tape & brown superglue on the roofline really takes away from it. On the interior it is not that bright compared to a R32.
I think we already know many NYers are morons. :)
Mark
I'll be passing through Atlanta on July 26, and I gave myself a nice window for railfanning. Are you free that day?
Mark
Mark
They also look wrong running in a 2-car set. My favorite is the R46.
Thank you!
Mark
DAY 1: July 4
I started my day riding an R142A 6 train from Canal Street. I got off at Grand Central to find the Transit Museum Store but it was closed on the 4th.
So i then took an R62 7 train to Times Square so I could find a redbird and hopefully its lights will go out on the junction at TSQ. I waited for about 7-8 R62 trainsets to pass before I got my redbirds. I headed straight to the R33S where I was greeted by no one. Only a few brave souls stayed in that non-air conditioned car.
The redbirds were not in good shape at all. The storm doors kept coming unlatched on the R33S and kept swinging open on some of the other cars.
R33S interior.
I rode the redbirds to Queensboro Plaza, which is where I took these two pics:
After romaing around Queensboro Plaza, i went down to the Manhattan bound tracks and hopped on an R68 W train. I got off at Lex Av/59th St.
From here I boarded a R142A 6 train and headed to 14th St./Union Square so I can ride an R143 for the first time. I rode an R143 L train to 8th Avenue and got off there to take this pic:
After this I walked to the A train platform on 14th St. Here I found these strange copper statues of little round headed men and alligators:
I went uptown to 59th Street/Columbus Circle on an R44 A train and exited there. Stupidly, I faced the express track platform hoping that the doors would open b/c the A is an express route. The doors opened on the local platform side for some odd reason.
Anyways, I then took an R38 A train back down to 14th St. I took another R143 L train back to Union Square and headed back to the 6 platform to head back to my lodging, which was my aunt's apartment on Park Row.
On the platform a woman approached me asking for directions to NYU. I should have told her to follow me on a downtown 6 and get off at Astor Place, which is like next to NYU, but stupidly I told her to take a uptown 6, thinking that I was standing at Canal Street, which is where I was going to get off. I got on another R142A 6 train and went back to my temporary home. I had to call it a day to spend some time with the family members me, my parents, and I were visiting.
Part 2 of my trip recap comes tomorrow, it will include:
Far better redbird pics than the ones on this post
An explanation on the smashed up police car
And much more.
The center platform at 59 St-CC is not used by revenue trains. Just pretend it's not there, and the station becomes a regular IND express station.
Awesome photos, BTW, especially of the (L) train. The photos came out so clear and crisp. What camera are you using?
Do us a favor so we will not have to relive your day in real time, link to the photos rather than making them part of the post. Although the pictures are good, I was able to bake a pizza in the time it took for your post to download. :-(
Tom
Chuck Greene
And the Redbirds on the 7 are in terrible shape. A select few even have tiny holes developing in the carbodies (mostly closest to the roof).
Boy aren't we going to miss the Brids once they're all gone from the 7 :-(. Nice pics of the Redbirds, especially the one with the zoomed in front.
more here...
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/04/nyregion/04REEF.html
#3 West End Jeff
If open, as you say, as the train starts up the gate comes down. How is this accomplished? I assume that it is not via detection of an increase in power resulting from a throttle application, because that method, if used, would only apply to MUs, and electric pulled trains, not diesels operating in diesel mode.
Hmmm. Got me wondering...does the LIRR have real-time knowledge of the up/down state of ALL the gates?
P.S. I'm planning on using an R42 for the base of my planned Rollsign applet.
Started out hoping to catch my usual 8:31 D express at 205th Street. I get to the platform, and its packed like there hasn't been a train there in a while. Then theres an announcement that there is no direct manhattan service from this station (205th Street). So I had to take a Shuttle train to Bedford Park Blvd. to catch the train to manhattan. At Bedford Park Blvd., another announcement was made that D trains were running Local from Bedford Park Blvd. to Tremont Avenue, then express stops to Manhattan. All B service was terminating and originating at Tremont Avenue. Quite a few people seemed confused, which prompted both the Conducter and Train Operator to make announcements at Tremont Ave. that the train was going express to 145th Street.
I guess that Tremont Avenue destination on roll signs would have been
came in handy this morning!?!
My Questions:
1. Does anyone know if this will be the norm on the Concource Line for a while, or is it just a one time thing?
2. With the headways that the B and D run on currently, would a service pattern like this work on a regular basis, whether it be during rush hours or off hours-specifically hours when B services it curtailed to 145th street?
Yes, the 205th St. / BPB shuttle thing is supposed be the norm for a while. Although, I didn't think it was supposed to start for a few weeks. I've been dealing with it on the overnights, 1200-0500, for a few weeks now and consider myself lucky that I get on at BPB.
I will check my sources and get back to you.
Peace,
ANDEE
-Stef
What does this mean to you? You may ask.
It means you will experience what you saw this morning, for several months 24/7.
My advice to you, start walking to BPB.
Peace,
ANDEE
There will be years of G.O.s as the signal system is replaced. Fortunately, there are three tracks, so you'll have two open most of the time. You might just need to go a stop or two out of your way and reverse. But they'll be weekend shutdowns when they replace the switches between tracks.
Peace,
ANDEE
I know what to expect on my weekend commutes to work.
-Stef
That is in the near future, also.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
BTW, have you been working at 205th? I'll have to stop by and say hello.
Peace,
ANDEE
2. IMO, I think it wouldn't since the D would be making an extra stop [at 182/183] & it would add extra time to the commute north of Fordham Rd so that is unlikely.
What's up with that?
The other variation is the E out of 179 Street in the AM. It runs from 179 to WTC, and on the return trips drops out at Union Tpke, discharges and runs light to 179 St where it lays up in the back.
I used to get one of those jobs fairly often, considering I was XXL and they were high seniority jobs. In fact the job out of 179 St I used to get was a 1 trip job (as well as another out of P/A). Couldn't beat them with any other job in the system :)
If you are fortunate enough to get a seat while riding the subway, especially on the IRT, please have enough consideration to tuck your feet under the seats, so fellow passengers can walk by in the car aisle. The newest IRT cars have a lot of space under the seats for this specific purpose. IRT cars are very narrow and some of them have poles that are somewhat difficult to walk around. If you would tuck in your feet, you would make things much easier for your fellow riders.
Thanks.
However we with long legs really can't do anything about it, and there are many of us. There are a lot of people that like to stick there legs far out and make passing impossible. Or even standing, as there's less staning room.
Also I find the new seats a little too uncomfortable to relly stick my feet under as they jab into the back of my knees.
Sit on a couple of phonebooks ?
Bill "Newkirk"
When you're operating the train? Man, Lou, you're an easygoing guy!
The main rule is any feet that are not tucked in are fair game to be stepped on. (^_^).
Being considerate in the NYC subway, don't always expect it 8-).
My questions from this observation is has the TA gone and scared the crews so bad that they won't even ask for permision to open the front half of the train that is fully platformed?
Supervision had to know since the arrivng train was rerouted to the express track.
Are the crews forbiddin to open doors at all when not at the proper markers unless supervision is present could be an explaination.
Not opening the front half of the train led to an even more dangerous sititution with customers exiting from between cars and I don't understand at all FORECING a detrained customer and child to get back on the train when they were safley on the platform.
If the C/R had called control I'm sure that he/she would have been given permission to open the section of the train completely in the station, or at the least key open crew doors. I've seen it done before.
People exiting between the cars is dangerous, you are correct. It shows how New Yorkers have no regard for their safety or the safety of others. I'm sure that a lawyer would be too happy to take the case if someone fell and got injured. And New Yorkers probably know that well.
Besides that if someone fell and was injured, with the T/O investigating there'd be the possibility of taking them for the cause of the BIE. If not, then that would certainly increase the delay as they'd have to be rescued from the tracks.
The police wanted someone on that train, and if there were announcements made they would have been tipped off and tried to exit in some other fashion. I believe this is the singular instance where delay announcements are not to be made. Can anyone back me on that?
Years ago a bank robber in Camden fled the scene by getting on a PATCO train at the Broadway station. PATCO was notofied very quickly and stopped the train before it reached Ferry Ave (next station eastbound). The perp easily figured out what they were doing, slipped out between cars, and ran off. (PATCO goes from subway to above ground just east of Broadway station)
Or, even worse, taken hostages.
Fat lot of good that would have done you in a subway tunnel.
;^)
If that were the case the train would not likely gone BIE,
and the T/O would not have opened the door to get out.
The Brits and the Japs seem to have a door in the crew compartment that wound not be accessible to pax anyway.
Elias
Oh! Whoops, my bad, they ARE using the Chuchubob Maneuver. Good for them, that's being resourceful.
That's being reckless and illegal.
Nah, while I was reading the thread, choochoo dumped, T/O walked off, no recharge, everybody wondering what was going on, Marks says "My train" and nothing else up to that point, I figured we weren't going to find out wha'happened. Then, message or two later, Mark indicated what had happened.
I just figured the blue curtain of secrecy had surrounded the train and it was pushed off to 76th Street with all on board. :)
Well, there you have it. It was dangerous to get off the train because there is no station at KINDS Highway. ;-)
Please ... please ... it's a joke. See the smiley?
Don't hurt me.
Isn't it three stops after H Avenue?
ANNOUNCEMENTS WERE MADE
Control instructed US NOT TO OPEN ANY DOORS (Front or back) After asking for permission.
As for the T/O not letting people off, I don't know. I was keying people off in my position.
The R40Ms don't have exterior PA speakers so you're not very likely to hear the announcements made with the doors closed.
This is intended to benefit New Jersey, and would be electrified the same way NJT trains are. In any event, this alternative has been disgarded in favor of a straight connection to Penn.
I liked the RPA suggestion -- a super shuttle from Secaucus Transfer to Grand Central via 43rd St, then down Second Avenue to Lower Manhattan, then out to Jamaica.
The loop connects to non-electrified lines.
However as mentioned NJ has (for now) givin up on the alternative "G" proposal and instead is focusing on "P" and "S".
"New Jersey makes new tunnel plans
In a move that may affect generations of commuters, New Jersey transportation officials voted to focus on getting a new train tunnel built to New York Penn Station. They also set aside plans to extend a proposed new Hudson River rail tunnel to Grand Central Terminal on Manhattan’s East Side, according to the Newark Star-Ledger of June 30.
The undertaking is estimated to cost as much as $5 billion, a project New Jersey Transit say is essential for the state to prevent its already strained rail system from becoming overwhelmed by the growing numbers of commuters to Midtown Manhattan.
Rail advocates and watchdog groups expressed disappointment that a $4.9 million environmental impact study authorized by NJ Transit earlier this month will not explore the link to Grand Central Terminal.
“What was originally promised is now being put on the back burner,” said Al Papp, a director with the New Jersey Association of Railroad Passengers. He added, “Our expectations have been dashed.”
NJT officials said they opted to take a more pragmatic approach, otherwise they said they might jeopardize the progress on the tunnel by making the project too ambitious.
Connecting the tracks from the new tunnel to Grand Central would have increased the price by billions of dollars, drastically complicated the construction work and prolonged the job by years, officials said.
Moreover, New York transportation agencies have resisted NJT’s attempts to build a link to Grand Central, particularly because the agency wants to build a new link that would bring Long Island Rail Road trains to that station, officials said.
“Our main objective is to increase tunnel capacity under the river,” said NJT’s chief planner, Richard Roberts.
“All this talk about where we go on the other side is irrelevant unless we get the access across the river. We should not get caught up in a big study for a project we can’t build within the time-frame and we can’t afford to build,” Roberts said.
Even without the Grand Central Terminal connection, the new tunnel will not be completed until 2015 at the earliest, a schedule that depends upon New Jersey prevailing in the highly competitive battle for federal funding and on the massive construction work going smoothly.
The existing tunnels from New Jersey to Midtown Manhattan, which are used by Amtrak and NJT, were built in 1910. They carry about 19 trains per hour each way during rush hour - and that number will increase to 25 by the end of this year.
Sometime in the next decade that tunnel will not have enough capacity to handle the demand for commuter trains between New Jersey and Midtown, officials said. In the mid-1990s, NJT, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey and the Metropolitan Transit Authority got together to study ways to resolve the capacity crunch.
The project, called “Access to the Region’s Core,” originally looked at 137 possibilities, then narrowed the field to about 15 and eventually to three options that included building a new tunnel, next to the current hole.
All three options remained under consideration until this year. “Alternative P” would end at Penn Station at a new lower level, “Alternative S” would go to the south side of Penn Station and then through to Sunnyside Yard in Queens. “Alternative G” would go through Penn Station and end at Grand Central Terminal, but the environmental study commissioned earlier this month does not call for an analysis of Alternative G.
For New Jersey commuters headed to jobs on Manhattan’s East Side, Alternative G could eliminate overcrowded subway cars or a long walk.
“I used to make that commute,” Papp said.
“I ended up walking because I was tired of being shoved and bumped and having people step on my shoes on the subway,” he remarked.
NJT officials said they do not have updated data on how many of their customers are headed to jobs on the East Side.
Roberts, the agency’s planner, said the connection to the East Side may become less critical in coming decades because New York City has made redeveloping its West Side, from 31st Street to 41st Street, its main priority.
Papp said research done about a decade ago showed a higher percentage of New Jersey commuters worked within walking distance of Grand Central Terminal than from New York Penn Station.
“It would be nice if they could do Alternative G,” said Janine Bauer, executive director of the Tri-State Transportation Campaign, a watchdog group, “but this is a less than ideal world. The tunnel itself is still important to the majority of the riders.”
“It’s still a great project, it’s just that the optimal result is going to elude us,” said Martin Robins, executive director of Rutgers University’s Transportation Policy Institute."
With a guy pedaling on a stationary bicycle?
Squirrel cages?
Not quite AOL IM, but it can do the trick in a pinch.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=455053
It is already associated with NYC Subway Resources (not to mention the MTA uses it as well).
Why not come up with your own name for it.
Why must you use "Subtalk". Can't you come up with something different?
I thought about forming this group because Upoc is on most WAP enabled phones and messages can be sent as this group (broadcast to everyone who joins my group) or to individuals who have cell phones and want to meet up with someone else without giving out their phone numbers.
Example: Some people who wanted to meet with Fred and his gang (including myself), were not able to attend because they read the postings on the meeting location a bit too late. With my group, I can broadcast a message (in addition to posting it right here on Subtalk) and everyone will receive it on their computer or on their cell phone, if anyone is outside and on the run. You can even set your alerts to go on when you receive an incoming message on your phone, so you cannot miss anything, and possible meet with the party for some good rail fanning too.
For those not familiar with the WMATA system, the routes operate as this:
Yellow Line/ Huntington to Mt. Vernon Sq-Conv ctr.
Blue Line/ Franc.-Springfield to Addison Rd.
My suggestion [and the routing ORIGINALLY on the first WMATA maps in the 60's/70's] is this:
Yellow Line/ Franc.-Springfld to Mt. Vernon Sq-conv Ctr
Blue Line / Huntington to Addison Rd.
Does anybody agree with this setup? Post your reactions here.
Thanks
Mdlbigcat@comcast.net
Mark De Loatch
P.S. The ACTUAL routing on the early WMATA maps wasthat the Yellow Line run from Franconia-Springfield to Greenbelt.
After a careful look at ridership patterns and how WMATA always changes things around on July 4th, do you think that the Yellow and Blue lines switch terminals in Virginia?
For those not familiar with the WMATA system, the routes operate as this:
Yellow Line/ Huntington to Mt. Vernon Sq-Conv ctr.
Blue Line/ Franc.-Springfield to Addison Rd.
My suggestion [and the routing ORIGINALLY on the first WMATA maps in the 60's/70's] is this:
Yellow Line/ Franc.-Springfld to Mt. Vernon Sq-conv Ctr
Blue Line / Huntington to Addison Rd.
Does anybody agree with this setup? Post your reactions here.
Thanks
Mdlbigcat@comcast.net
Mark De Loatch
P.S. The ACTUAL routing on the early WMATA maps wasthat the Yellow Line run from Franconia-Springfield to Greenbelt.
Read this thread and in particular this post. You may just get your wish. I under stand why it was done and I under stand why it is still this way. When WMATA finely gets it fleet up to what it need to be to cover the whole system using no 4 car trains and 34% of the trains running as 8 car trains on close peek headways (under 3 minutes) on Blue Orange and Green Yellow trunks. We will see more then 40% of the trains out of Franconia-Springfield (J03) heading to Greenbelt (E10).
Frankly I would like to see the operational configuration returned to what it was prior to the opening of the Blue line extension to Huntington (C15)
John
Mark
p.s.--I still think it's rather interesting at Huntington & Eisenhower Avenue that if you look close enough at the Yellow dots on the platforms, you can see the edges of Blue dots underneath---During Subtalk DC back in April, I pointed this feature to a few people at Huntington, that is, before we made the mad dash onto the CAF car
Mark
p.s.--I still think it's rather interesting at Huntington & Eisenhower Avenue that if you look close enough at the Yellow dots on the platforms, you can see the edges of Blue dots underneath---During Subtalk DC back in April, I pointed this feature to a few people at Huntington, that is, before we made the mad dash onto the CAF car."
Interesting that you noticed that. Back when these lines were being built a company called Jack Stone Signs had the contract to do all the station graphics. The enamel base brown with white lettering and other colors was baked on the pylons panels before they were installed. The modifications to reflect the present configuration were silk screened at a latter date.
If you closely examine any of the platform pylons along the entire C Route from Huntington (C15) to Metro Center (C01) and the D and G routes from Metro Center (C01) to Addison Road (G03) you will see evidence of the original configuration. All of the platform pylons from Pentagon (C07) to King Street (C13) have both of the never built stations west and south of Van Dorn Street (J02), the Springfield station (original J03) at Backlick road and Norfork Southern railroad right of way and the Franconia Station (original H02) station at Franconia Road and the CSX railroad right of way. I am pretty sure the pylons on the upper level L'Enfant Plaza (F03) also shows the original Franconia and Springfield stations. I am not so sure about Archives (F02) and Gallery Place Station (F01) but I would Hazard a guess they do as well as they were built before the final decision was made to build Franconia-Springfield (J03) and delete the original Franconia and Springfield stations.
John
Mark
mark
Scott M. Kozel of www.roadstothefuture.com fame told me as he works for VDOT that part of a deal that was struck to move the Franconia station south to its present location south of the Springfield Mall called for the deletions of the never built Springfield station off Backlick Road in side the Capitol Beltway VA I-495. I also under stand that there was some funding constrains that were also part of the deal.
Oh and by the way, when the line was built in its present configuration there were no provisions built for a junction that would connect to a future Backlick Road station.
Happened twice yesturday on the #4 and once on the #3, although for the instance on the 3 they managed a stretch.
Peace,
ANDEE
Intoxicated train crew members put the public at risk
The MTA needs to hire professional managmentent and dump the old clubhouse style of management
Random testing is fine. Never said it wasn't.
Don't twist my words.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
OTOH have you noticed there are fewer randoms in the summer when they are short staffed?
Those that use also take all their vacation in a big block.
I banged in someone for drinking, he of course was not sent.
How did they get it here? Did they cut it in quarters and glue it together convincingly afterwards? Or is/was there a way to get a disk 20' across from CA to NY without hitting the roof of a tunnel or an overpass?
Maybe it was transported by ship.
New theory....
Maybe it went by helicopter?
Maybe Peter is right. The section traveled as cargo on a freighter. They didn't have cargo trains yet.;)
Larry, RedbirdR33
The standard seating in those turdbuckets was twos ... looks like they mounted stools in that one. No, that wasn't typical.
Hey!! Watch what you say about my R10's, otherwise I'll have to start saying something about the class of cars that came before the R10's.... : )
Wayne
The flats were the direct result of the braking and axle problems of prior years, and despite the graf problems, they were just plain grungy on their own. They suffered severe rot in the often unpainted cabs, you'd have pipes that would bust on the stands and other problems trying to get them to move. Perhaps the worst part of the R10's was the accumulation of steel dust in the breaker panels. You'd go to hit a breaker and get thrown across the cab by the jolt.
So I guess what I'm saying is that my view of the 10's is colored more by a perspective that buffs didn't get to experience. You haven't lived until you did a cut in a yard and have the bolster snap and have the body fall off the trucks. Some of them were THAT bad in 1970. :(
Wayne
My first experiences as a kid in the 50's were friendly motormen that would grant me HANDLE TIME on Saturdays for a stop or two headed north to 207th and it was GREAT. Alas, by the 70's, they'd literally become unmaintained junk. The graf didn't help the mood either. They were hellishly loud though, and you'd dare not try to close the windows to save your hearing as the filth was everywhere and it'd find you. :)
But man, in the 70's, they had really gotten to a sorry condition. A few folks I've met from here that worked them in the 80's actually LIKED working them which tells me that somewhere between my time and their time, maybe some maintenance had finally been done. I will say this though - when the 32's landed on the D, the B and the AA, they were REAL nice. Before the air conditioning and destruction of the 32's once proud looks.
This was a very exciting time for me, because up until I was 9 yrs old...we lived near West Farms Square and I only knew of IRT trains which I was quite happy with. Then we moved to the Grand Concourse. Well one day I was going downtown with my parents and I remember us going to the Tremont Ave IND station which I immediately found to be strange because this was my first time in an underground station with incandescent lighting. Well... our train (a S/B D approached the station and my eyes were wide open. The train was a R-42 consist. Remember until that point I had only seen/ridden IRT equipment. I immediately thought "Wow - this train looks like the one on Park Ave". Then of course I really like the ice-cold A/C and original blue interior. It just kept getting better as we travelled further downtown and I was discovering all of this different IND/BMT classes that I had never seen before.
Re: R-10 - I agree they were quite filthy. They were actually pretty clean once they their final coat of green paint, but by then I routinely passed them up to ride other stuff.
Wayne
When they first rebuilt the R10s, I could not believe the speed they were travelling. They seemed to be a little less noisier than the unrebuilt ones. Then after a couple of years, they started slowing down again, and became much louder than they were before they rebuilt them. It was really horrible. In my opinion, for whatever reason, the TA just did not take care of these cars-before or after rebuilding.
As for the R10's, I only got to ride them in their final years (in their great green scheme). I did get a taste of a few of them with grafitti and filth, just before they got cleaned up....they could probably then have rivaled the R16's...the cars everyone loves to hate.
But then again, this R7 felt the need to get a sex change to become an R10....so it obviously thought the R10's were "greener on the other side".....
Anything didn't work, you opened it, or closed it, or kicked it and away they went. The R10's with their SMEE added several layers of complexity that the old girls didn't have. You could often fix them yourself whereas with the newer cars, you HAD to call an RCI to move the pig. But like I said, most of my compatriots were only too glad to swap an interval with me and let me take out the Arnine so THEY didn't have to. :)
1575 is its own little story - only reason I remember that one so well is I'd see it in my consist every now and then and my heart would literally sink out of fear that some bozoid in the yard spotted me a real R10 ... 1575 probably had the longest rap sheet in the car barn - constantly breaking down for this and that ... it was a real troublemaker, and spent more time up on sawhorses than on trucks. Heh.
Arnines were truly an acquired taste - for me, they were bliss. But to most everybody else, they'd rather be keelhauled than have to run a set of them.
Well some things never change I guess, guess which car caused us to exit at Howard Beach....although I think one of the others had a brake problem also, but I think it was 1575 that put an end to the trip.
I swear, I've actually seen TMO's argue with gloves off as to what WAA would be done to get 1575 out of their freaking yard. Heh. Only reason why I remember that one since ANY motorman would notice that dog in their consist and KNOW that "if YOU laid it up in OUR yard, we're gonna burn ya boy" ... send it over THERE! RELAY!!! :)
Then again, the Sea Beach line was not part of the excursion route, so I feel better off being stranded at Howard Beach rather than any open cut station on the N line anyday, anytime.
Then they scrooched things. :-\
#3189 was removed in service around 1984, and was never a candidate to be part of the 110 GOH car fleet to be done with the dark green exterior. Instead, it became an R.C.I. Yard-School Car at Pitkin Yard on the Linden Boulevard end - Track 8, where it still resides today.
#3192 was a prototype inside Coney Island Yard in 1975 to have the R-10 car fleet rebuilt with an R-42 front and R-44 type interior with air-conditioning. The project was abandoned because MTA NYC Transit was determined it would have been too much of a financial cost of rebuilding an older car than the price of buying one new car, so #3192 was placed on the scrap heap in the fall of 1980.
The 12-inch diamater fans used on the R-10's plus R-12/14's and even R-7A #1575 were always stationery, and all I can say that the best they could do was circulate the air around them, and nothing more. In other words, no real direct coolness just like even the BMT Multi's and the Q-type cars on the Myrtle Avenue El once had too.
Granted, while I have been known on this SubTalk board for my knowledge of the R-10 car fleet, where many of the railfan community have known me as "Mr. R-10", I know that the cars themselves have had their own share of troubles in the basic and mechnical operation, plus their overall maintenance as well. In my all years in even riding them, there have been both good and bad days with the R-10's that I have experienced too.
But I will tell you this...the R-10's being on the "A" line during my younger years in this lifelong transit hobby is where it got me started in the first place. I make no regrets in my own personal choice with them as my all-time favorite NYC Transit subway car plus subway route at that. Let us just I have my own memories and appreciation with the R-10's for whatever they did to yours truly as an avid transit buff, and I do have my own, certain times with the fleet with no one will ever take away from me.
Let both the critics say and nay what they want on the R-10's themselves from their own point of view, and I do not mind it at that because I understand and take either the praise, indifference and/or criticism at best. Too bad, however as a rant of sorts, that R.P.C.-owned "museum" car #3184 (the other R-10 in existence) is just sitting there in Coney Island Yard doing absolutely nothing to this day as a static display, and it is that one car I am really eager to go inside one day in the near future.
-William A. Padron
["Mr. R-10"]
Sometimes, out-of-service and retired subway cars could be used as other school cars, such as R-27 #8145 that is adjacent on track #9 to the R-10 at Pitkin Yard. Just recently, IRT R-26's #7770-71 are in Canarsie Yard in Brooklyn, and even R-16 #6452 has been used for the longest time in such the same capicity on the former play area of the former P.S. 248 in Brooklyn.
-William A. Padron
["Mr. R-10"]
> (the other R-10 in existence) is just sitting there in Coney
> Island Yard doing absolutely nothing
Yabbut at least it's had some TLC over the years...
(1993)
(2003)
However, #3184 has endured all of nature's elements it has faced as a "museum" car while being stored outdoors with no protection (i.e. the rain, dampness, snow and Coney Island salty air). Now, seeing your two 2003 photos plus Joe Testagroe's 2002 picture, the exterior paint on the car has looked worn out and faded based upon what I see in the images.
Also, #3184 seems to have streaks along the sides of the car, plus there is a brown stain that is coming from underneath one of the restored number plates. Even the ends of the car look very murky and muddy to yours truly.
All I can say that R.P.C. should have at least give #3184 a touch up now and then, and even the orange side stripes are fading out too. By the way, will someone tell R.P.C. to change the front roll signs on the car back to where it said "A" and "Lefferts Blvd." (or "207 Street") as a true representative of its past history when the car was first released from Coney Island shop nine years ago.
Hmmm...another modified wish to ponder on the status of #3184. If I can not get to go inside #3184 one day in the future, how about someone from R.P.C. (or closely associated to that organization) photograph the car's interior, and perhaps someday post it on this Subtalk board or this webpage?
-William A. Padron
["Mr. R-10"]
Back in 1980 when cracking R-46 trucks was causing an upheaval in car assignments, R-10's on the Brighton Exp. (D) was a unique one of a kind expierence. Also on the (F) Culver elevated where they never saw service. R-10's on the (E) had original rollsigns at that time. Since they didn't have WTC, they were signed up Hudson Terminal. The passengers were confused !
Bill "Newkirk"
DAY 2: July 5
Actually, here is a pic I took from Day 1 that I forgot to post:
What R-type is this? I really love this picture;-)
Anyways, I wake up and have a delicious breakfast at a Chinese pastry store (I forgot what the name of the place is, but I believe its near the corner of Canal and Pell St. Also, there was a Chase Bank across the street if that helps anyone remember what the place is called).
After breakfast, I walked towards the Canal St station to begin the second and final day of railfanning:
From here I decided to get some subway shirts and take more pictures of redbirds so I took another R142A 6 train to GCT (Is the 6 exclusively R142A now?). Anyways, I went to the Transit Store in GCT and picked up a 4 train and Canal Street shirt. Unfortunately, they ran out of the TSQ and 7 train t-shirts.
After this, I went down to the 7 platform and took the first train to TSQ.
Unfortunately it was another R62A. At TSQ, I once again waited for about 5-6 R62A trainsets to pass before a train of redbirds showed up. Unfortunately the train used the crossover before it entered TSQ so the lights did not go off when we left TSQ. I was gonna ride this all the way out to Main Street. At Main Street I took some pictures of the redbirds resting near the bumper blocks:
PICTURE 1
PICTURE 2
PICTURE 3
PICTURE 4
PICTURE 5
After this, I took another redbird trainset to Willets Point-Shea Stadium where I headed for Corona Yard and took some pics of the yard and Casey Stengel depot:
By the way, what kinda R-type is this car?
Redbirds and R62A
Two Redbirds side by side
Stengel Depot
Stengel Depot 2
A Bus-B-Que;-)
2 redbirds
Same shot, except with redbird in picture
After this, I boarded a Main St bound R62A 7 train, got off at Main, and toured the Main Street area. Surprisingly, there was alot of Chinese people in this neighborhood. Thanks to Ray (aznboy4305 from BusTalk), I found a shish ka bob stand and had a tasty snack.
After this I found this QSC Orion V and a NYC Bus near the stand:
QSC route Q66
NYC Bus Q48
After this, I headed to 74th/B'way on a R62A 7 train and tried to find Ray's old neighborhood. I took a Manhattan bound R46 R train to Steinway St and walked around there. It looks alot like Georgia Ave here in DC. After this, I got back to Steinway Street and rode an R46 R train to 59th St. While walking from the R platform to the IRT platform, I noticed how modern the fare control area is. From here I boarded another R142A 6 train and got off at 86th Street. Here I took an R62 4 train to 161 St/Yankee Sta. and boarded a Manhattan bound R68 D train:
I got off at the end of the line at 34th/Herald Sq and hoped to board a R40/40M/42 on the N,R,Q, or W. None showed up, in fact, the Q and W also used the wrong tracks. They were on the N/R tracks for some reason. I gave up my hunt for them and just boarded the next train, which was an R68 Q train. I got off at Canal Street to end the final day of railfanning:
Canal Street mosaic
After this I went around shopping in Chinatown with my family and saw two interesting things, a properly filled trash can and a smashed up NYPD cruiser, which I had no part in destroying:
And there you have it, my NYC fantrip. It was so much fun for me.
Wayne
You're still claiming that!?! That's the same thing you said here:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=476727
...but as you can see here:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=479199
...that is simply untrue.
The price label even said $8.00.
I will have to swing by there this week to check it out again.
Peace,
ANDEE
What they have done is remove the $8.00 price stickers. At the moment there are no price stickers. That means they can charge anything.
The next time I see Amy Hausman I going to have to remind her what happened the last time they started playing with prices and overpricing some items. This goes back to when the store was in the main area of the terminal just across from the information kiosk. Prices of some items were so ridiculous that they went unsold.
I also have a feeling that TA Asset Recovery is somehow getting involved. If you saw the prices of the Redbird items they had on the webpage, you know what I mean. Someone should tell them that they are not ebay.
Sometimes I think they just don't get it. They should be focusing on the main area of interest - US - the hardcore railfans, not the occasional visitor who is looking for a bit of nostolgia to take home as a souvenir.
When the Museum first opened (as the Transit Exhibit)back in 1976 you could buy number plates, roll signs, station signs at decent prices. I can tell you that those items sold quickly. Quite frankly I should have bought more of those back then.
Did you come up with that one your self, or have you been listening to Dave Sandler do traffic on the Mighty 1090 WBAL AM in Baltimore.
John
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K what the hell is going on
2003 Riverhead Packages Schedule
July 4 through September 1; Fridays, Saturdays, Sundays & Holidays
Long Island Rail Road - Express Bus
Take the LIRR to Ronkonkoma Station and board an Express Shuttle Bus to Riverhead. Please board the Express Bus on the Northwest side of the Ronkonkoma Station, adjacent to the taxi stand.
Express Bus Onboard rates available for customers without LIRR Riverhead Package tickets:
One Way $15/Round-Trip $20
Friday Going
Leave Penn Station 7:39 AM 9:16 AM 11:16 AM
Arrive Ronkonkoma 8:59 AM 10:37 AM 12:37 PM
Leave Ronkonkoma 9:10 AM 11:08 AM 12:52 PM
Splish Splash* 9:40 AM 11:38 AM 1:22 PM
Tanger Outlets 9:57 AM 11:55 AM 1:39 PM
Atlantis 10:13 AM 12:11 PM 1:55 PM
Friday Return
Splish Splash* 11:38 AM 1:22 PM 3:10 PM 5:10 PM 7:00 PM
Tanger Outlets 11:55 AM 1:39 PM 3:27 PM 5:27 PM 7:17 PM
Atlantis 12:11 PM 1:55 PM 3:44 PM 5:44 PM
Tanger Outlets 2:12 PM 4:00 PM 6:00 PM
Arrive Ronkonkoma 12:41 PM 4:30 PM 7:48 PM
Leave Ronkonkoma 1:11 PM 4:46 PM 7:58 PM
Arrive Penn Station 2:33 PM 6:08 PM 9:19 PM
Saturday, Sunday & Holiday Going
Leave Penn Station 7:14 AM 9:14 AM 11:14 AM
Arrive Ronkonkoma 8:38 AM 10:38 AM 12:38 PM
Leave Ronkonkoma 8:49 AM 10:49 AM 12:49 PM
Splish Splash* 9:19 AM 11:19 AM 1:19 PM
Tanger Outlets 9:36 AM 11:36 AM 1:36 PM
Atlantis 9:52 AM 11:52 AM 1:52 PM
Saturday, Sunday & Holiday Returning
Splish Splash* 11:19 AM 1:19 PM 2:10 PM 5:10 PM 7:30 PM
Tanger Outlets 11:36 AM 1:36 PM 2:27 PM 5:27 PM 7:47 PM
Atlantis 11:52 AM 1:52 PM 2:44 PM 5:44 PM
Tanger Outlets 12:09 PM
3:00 PM 6:00 PM
Arrive Ronkonkoma 12:41 PM 3:41 PM 6:41 PM 8:30 PM
Leave Ronkonkoma 12:43 PM 3:43 PM 6:43 PM 8:43 PM
Arrive Penn Station 2:04 PM 5:04 PM 8:04 PM 10:04 PM
* Hours of operation vary; please check Splish Splash Water Park prior to your trip
Hopefully if many people use this bus service, they will finally decide it may be a good idea to extend some kind of normalo serivce between Ronkonkoma and Riverhead. A new station at Tanger wouldn't hurt either.
Won't be too long before we see $500 monthlies from Zone 1 to Zone 14.
I hear you. And this'll be good for workers going out there. I believe the bus is the first acknowledgment on the part of the LIRR of the potential "corridor-ization" of the route. Which has its good and bad points, but at least out to Riverhead it seems like a good target to reach for.
Remember also that the Turbo project was political backscratching for Supersteel after they pharked up the LIRR job (Al D'Amato once again), and reviews from folks I know who have ridden them have NOT been impressive. The seating ain't right, they have about half the capacity of a standard Amfleet train and they're not terribly comfortable either. However, Supersteel's making lots of money after their campaign contributions were cashed, and that's all that matters. :-\
I'm just wonder why NYC got the turbos way back when, long before they became a fixture for the empire corridor, long before NY State stuck it's nose in there. Say back in the early eighties, why the heck did they decide to stuff electrical junk into the power cars, when there was a preexsisting non-electrical powerplant design. I don't get why the Turbos didn't go to the Hiawatha, Shoreline East, California, or some other route, sans 3rd rail junk, while NYC went for some form of new dual mode DEMU or locomotive, more reliable than the aging FL9s.
Others:
- Pacific Northwest
- Calif. (San Fran to LA)
- Gulf Coast
- Florida (Tampa to Miami)
- Southeast (Wash to Atlanta)
- Chicago Hub
Since the N-E (Boston to Wash) existed it seemed a no brainer to extend it to Albany & Buffalo ... boy were they wrong.
In 2001 they made some further "Extentions":
- No. NE (Mass, ME & NY)
- Chicago (more spokes on the hub)
- Southeast (connect Southeast & Gulf Coast)
- Calif (alt way between San Fran & LA)
Why Turbos? You have to remember it was PC time
Ha, ha. More “tomorrow’s train on yesterday’s track” nonsense. Electrification? Rendered obsolete by diesel-electric, so self-contained propulsion was still the way to go.
Too bad, too, because these trains are reputably capable of over 150 mph. If you are gonna buy them, then use them at that speed. It’s kinda like buying a Ferrari in Germany and then not driving it on the Autobahn.
Now why were the RTL IIIs displayed at Chicago Union Station and Milwaukee Station if they were not to be used on the Hiawatha, is my question??
(BTW the earlier, even less practical UA Turboliner for NY-Boston service was also third-rail equipped)
Back to “TTOYT” yet again—this train, on top of having 171-mph capability, was equipped with a tilt suspension to permit faster operation through curves while keeping passengers’ equilibrium stable. VIA had the right idea by lengthening these trains, but the wrong idea by restricting them to a mere 100 mph. Had just a tad more investment been put into the infrastructure and signaling systems, the Turbotrain would have been a remarkable way to travel from GCT to Chicago, i.e. if it were permitted to travel at the speeds it was capable of.
Sounds of New York (1990)
Videorecording by Bill Freda Inc.
Producers, William Freda, Jr., Howard Grossman
Director, William Freda, Jr.
New York, NY : Cinema Guild
Castle Hill (1)
Donnell (1)
Edenwald (1)
Performing Arts Library (2)
Wakefield Branch (1)
Call # VC 784.463 S
but chances are it'll just be in a special video rack which is completely unorganized.
Yikes! People will still go to NJ or Rockland. NJT direct buses from PA 42nd street to the major malls in NJ run about $6-11 round trip. And to Palisades in Rockland county its probably $15 round trip w the MNRR/TZX combo. Still cheaper!
While Im glad bus service is now do able to Tanger, at those prices I cant afford to go there on my own anytime soon.
Long Island sucks! We have lousy malls, subpar transit, overpriced housing, and awful roads.
"Shop Tax Free - Tuesday, August 26 - Monday, September 1"
Well in NJ you can shop tax free ALL THE TIME on clothes. The more I think, a move to New Jersey me be in my future. :-0
With the shuttles to and from major spots on the east end, hopefully enough people will use them and it will ease up on some of that traffic we all know and love.
SO MOVE!!!!
I've lived on Long Island for all my 50 years and think it's a damn GREAT PLACE!!!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Speaking of Shirley, is the Synagogue still there, you know, the Shirley Temple?
I dunno, depends on what bar you go to:
SHIRLEY TEMPLE OF DOOM
Ingredients:
Drink Type: Mixed Drinks
Glass Type: Collins Glass
Ingredients:
fill With Lemon Lime soda
dash Grenadine
3 oz. Vodka
(I better run before rocks get thrown at me).
The places in New Jersey and Palisades in Rockland are just plain old retail malls (some better than others) with retail prices. Nobody in their right mind would travel from the city to Riverhead for another mall.
The question is whether or not the LIRR Tanger trip is competitive with Short Line's Woodbury Common bus which costs $35.
CG
Please don't. As a US taxpayer I'm already subsidizing your unemployed lifestyle. As a NJ taxpayer I don't want to subsidize it any further.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Of which, I saw a similar thingie yesterday on the 1 but where half
the rollsign enclosure was exposed (light tubes showing) and half
of a 9 on the left side of the viewing area...
And I know what you're talking about in reference of the light bulbs showing off on one of the sign's.I've seen that train numerous time's already,I know it's a 22xx lead car.The crew at 240 obviously keep forgetting to fix it.
I think someone wanted to play with the rollsigns ;-). Seriously though I wouldn't expect the 13 to be on the front rolls.
Nor would you see me getting on that train. ;)
Mark
*********************************************************************
Today we take the alternate route.
Many of you have already heard, but those that haven’t, there was a huge fire in Riverdale, IL along the Chicago Sub and also along the parallel Metra Electric District University Park Sub. The bridges that span Metra and the CN over CSX Transportation’s B&O Chicago Terminal trackage burned late in the evening of Sunday, 22 June.
As it would happen, I operated the very last train across one of the freight side bridges and Conductor Tom Boggs and I spotted the fire in its early stages when only the Metra bridges were burning. We reported it to both Metra to get all their traffic stopped and to our Dispatcher to make him aware of a potential situation developing and to get the fire department notified. A CSX Trainmaster also observed the fire and was in communication with the Yardmaster at Markham to notify him of the problem as well. Apparently, the fire spread rapidly as the freight side of the bridges were also engulfed in flames in short order after we cleared the structure. Being that we hade 179 cars in our train and had to reduce to 25 MPH for Kensington, it is quite possible the bridge may have started to burn while the tail end of our train was still crossing it.
There are separate structures here on the CN and Metra sides, but apparently the fire didn’t seem to care. It managed to jump from one span to the next, and the next.
In any event, when all was said and done, the bridges were totally destroyed and no rail traffic of any type could be operated on any of them. These wooden structures which date back to the 1920’s became a charred mass of sticks with rail dangling above it. In the case of Chicago Sub track one, the structure was completely gone and just the rail was left dangling in mid air. As a result of all this, Metra has had to suspend commuter service on their University Park Sub between Riverdale (which is just south of the bridge) and the southern terminus of the line in University Park. Most of their equipment is trapped south of the bridge and there is no way to move it around the bridge as the only remaining connection to the CN Chicago Sub is at Kensington which, of course, is north of the bridge.
The 1500V DC overhead wire used to power the electric MU Highliner cars was also brought down around the bridge area. So in addition to the bridge being replaced, all of the wire and any catenaries that were damaged will also have to be replaced.
CN is also in a bind as none of their traffic can move north of the bridge as well. At the time of the fire there were several southbound trains in the picture; a 762 coal train at Kensington en route to Michigan, a 394 train coming from the BNSF also en route to Michigan pulling up behind 762, an empty 732 coal train in the yard at Fordham just north of 95th Street about ready to come south and head to Southern Illinois for loading, a 338 train coming by 39th Street heading for Markham and also Norfolk Southern trackage rights train 317 requesting to come onto the Chicago Sub at 95th Street. Under the normal plan 762 and 394 had to wait for us to clear as they were going to cross over from track one to track four at Kensington. 732 would be crossing over from track four to either one or two at Kensington. 338 en route to Markham was just caught up in the parade. 317 would also cross over from four to either one or two at Kensington and head south bypassing Markham and heading to points south. So because of this fire, there was immediately gridlock.
“Damn this traffic jam; hurts my motor to go so slow.”
When derailments, washouts, floods, fires, fires, landslides, wash outs, volcanoes, and the like occur, instead of just letting trains back up and wait until the line involved is reopened, arrangements are normally made with other railroads to detour trains around the problem location. In some cases these detours may route the train miles out of its way, but the detour route makes much better sense than having trains sitting for days or perhaps even weeks.
The American Association of Railroads has set a price on detours. While normal trackage rights charges between railroads are negotiated, detour rates are pre-determined to assure that one railroad doesn’t gouge another under trying times such as these. Gee hard to believe one road would do something like that to another, eh? This special rate excludes the cost of the required pilots. Pilots are also paid for by the detouring railroad covering all costs to get them into position and then back to where they need to tie up. This could include the costs of transportation, hotel and away from home meal expenses if required and any overtime incurred by the pilots as necessary. It may also cover the requirement for any other additional employees as needed to move these train.
Some railroads negotiate detour rates in advance and have them on file just in case something drastic should occur in certain locations like Chicago. The Grand Trunk Western and Indiana Harbor Belt negotiated such an agreement in 1978 to assure a readily available detour route along with rate and cost structure just in case something should occur. This agreement was put to the test after a huge derailment occurred on the Trunk in the Southern Chicago Suburb of Merrinette Park at 119th Street in 1987. This wreck wiped out both mains and had the Trunk detouring virtually all of their trains that operated west of Blue Island on GTW trackage for several days. As it would happen, I have a bunch of photos of that wreck as I went over and took a look at it after I got off work that morning.
Pilots are required whenever the Engineer is not familiar with and/or not qualified on a particular segment of railroad. The qualifications include rules, signals, physical characteristics and the like. Unlike driving along the highway, moving a train across railroad that is not familiar can lead to serious consequences. Not all rules on all railroads are the same; CN US Operating Rules have some differences from say NORAC and the General Code. Also the FRA requires us to have pilots under such circumstances. Even if it is on our home road, if it is a territory we are not familiar with, or that we have not operated over within a year, we must have a pilot. On any segment of track where timetable speed is in excess of 10 MPH, the pilot must also be a Certified Locomotive Engineer.
Now in the case of the detours we will be discussing here, the Indiana Harbor Belt and the Belt Railway of Chicago are the so-called “foreign roads” handling our trains. We are also using part of our own property with the Elsdon Sub of the former Grand Trunk Western. The portion of the Elsdon Sub we are using with my run is between Harvey and Blue Island Tower, about four or so miles of railroad. Now being that I am a former IC Engineer, I normally do not operate over the Elsdon Sub. Once, way back in my days at the IHB, I did operate over the Elsdon Sub between Blue Island Tower and Western Avenue, which is less than one and a half miles. And even then, that was just with the engines and done to run around a train we delivered to the old GTW Blue Island Yard located there.
So being that I really was not qualified and being that the one trip I did have was so many years ago, I needed a pilot on the Elsdon Sub. As it worked out, I had a pilot for two round trips on the Elsdon Sub and by proclamation was deemed qualified to go it alone Saturday the 28th. I was asked first though if I felt comfortable and could do so or needed a pilot for another trip. I believed I was good to go and told them such.
“I hereby proclaim you qualified!”
We are also using the Indiana Harbor Belt between Blue Island Tower and the connection to the Joliet Sub at CP Canal (Argo) about twelve miles. Now I know some of you are already saying “You used to work there, you should know this line. “ Tis true, I did and should. But, there has been a great deal of changes made to this line since I worked here last in 1996. Centralized traffic control was added between CP Francisco and CP Argo, several new control points were added, most of the old signals have been removed as well as a road crossing and a controlled siding was installed. Plus, it had been nearly seven years since I saw most of this railroad from the high iron side.
Bring on the pilots.
So now we will take you on our first detour trip across the IHB. We’ll also discuss aspects of some of the other trips as well because as you all know, nothing ever goes as smoothly as planned. And what goes smoothly seems to do so despite the plans not because of them.
Our first detour trip begins on 23 June. We were on duty at Glenn at 1600 hours and wound up departing there at 1835 hours. Our train today consists of engines GTW 5949 and IC 1021 with 67 loads, 56 empties, 9955 tons and 7392 feet of train. We would be operating out the south end of the yard (often referred to as the west end) and heading timetable direction south (compass west-southwest) towards CP (Control Point) Canal, the crossing and connection between the Joliet Sub and the IHB mains.
We will pull out onto Joliet Sub track two (the south track according to the compass but the east track according to timetable direction) at 47 Crossover and after doubling up and getting the permission to proceed south depart. 47 Crossover is a control point, part of the CTC system installed on the former GM&O last year. It is south of the original hand operated switches and quite the set up now. 40 MPH universal crossovers allow a train to crossover to and from either track in either direction or to enter and exit the south end of Glenn Yard.
There is a passenger station at Summit which is about half a mile south of 47 Crossover. Being there are Metra and Amtrak trains operating on this line, we have to watch the times for trains due to work this station. We must be certain to stay clear of the Summit platform. Both Metra and Amtrak will be using track one for their station work. We have to positively ascertain that all these trains involved have arrived and departed before we foul or block the platform.
I switched to channel 58-58 (160.980) to converse with the IHB West Dispatcher and try to get permission to enter his railroad. He had traffic to run first and could not handle us. Now being that the IHB could not handle us immediately, we stayed north of the Summit platform waiting until after Amtrak 304 (The Ann Rutledge from Kansas City) arrived and departed. He did his work and departed there at 1852. Being this would be the last train of the day required to work Summit, we could and then did pull down to the IHB connection switch just north of CP Canal at milepost 13.
During our wait at Summit, I had pulled out the trusty CORA guide (Chicago Operating Rules Association) book. This is a very handy item that is now required for all crews that operate over foreign lines in the Chicago Terminal. The CORA committee was formed to create a guide for all railroads and their employees to use. The CORA book was born from this work. Now any employee operating in the Chicago Terminal District (the area inside the circumference of the Elgin, Joliet & Eastern Railway) need just to carry the CORA book instead of any and all rulebooks and timetables of any line other than their own they might be required to operate over in their tour of duty.
The CORA book has the rules, special instructions and maps of all the railroads in the Chicago area. There are separate sections for the NORAC and General Code of Operating Rules. The CSX, NS and CN US Operating Rules are located within the sections on their respective railroads. For the most part, just the rules in effect within Chicago Terminal on each respective railroad are included in the rules sections. Each railroad in the Chicago Terminal has its own section. The big drawback to this book is that it weighs a ton.
We pulled into the connection track at CP Canal and waited for permission from the IHB West Dispatcher to open up on their end of the railroad. We watched a westbound with the BNSF 4743 and an eastbound with the IHB 2920 (a former Illinois Central SD20) go before we were finally given permission to open up and enter the IHB number one track and head east at 1950 hours. My instructions were to pull up to CP Argo and the Argo yard office (which was once my headquarters in my Trainmaster days) and pick up the pilot there.
As we enter IHB main track number one, we are also at the very west end of the “old yard” at Argo. This is a three track yard basically used to store cars. The “new yard” is just across from us on the other side of number two main. It has six or seven tracks and is used for industry support. The sprawling Corn Products Corp. (CPC) plant is located just beyond the new yard and clearly visible. The CN, IHB and Belt Railway of Chicago (BRC) all have access to and service Corn Products. The Argo name comes of course, from one of the products produced by CPC, Argo Corn Starch.
I have a slow approach (yellow over red on a dwarf signal) that allows me to proceed through CP Argo and on up to CP 71st Street. The IHB uses the NORAC rule book and NORAC uses speed signals. However, they do have a few modifications to the NORAC version of the signals and these changes are qualified in the IHB Special Instructions. Speed signals tell you exactly how fast (or slow) to proceed based upon the indications displayed by them. >From a personal standpoint, I have always preferred the speed signals over the route signals used by the western roads (also referred to as the “General Code” roads), portions of the Norfolk Southern and on the former IC and CCP lines.
CP Argo has universal crossovers to allow crossover movements from either track in either direction, access to the B&O Extension Track, the new yard on the south side of the mains, the old yard on the north side of the mains, the inbound and outbound leads that connect to the old stock yard lead (also known as the Argo Oakley Industrial Track and the west connection to the BRC’s Clearing Yard. This connection is known as the Northwestern Lead.
When the pilots boarded (both an Engineer and Conductor, the crew off IHB belt job BP-12), we headed on east. I was not acquainted with the Engineer as he had only been working there for several months, but I knew the Conductor from my days at the Harbor.
As we roll east, we pass above an industrial line of the BRC that extends from Clearing Yard into Corn Products. I stopped at CP 71st Street to wait as the Conductor was brought up in a cab after lining all the switches back at CP Canal which are equipped with electric locks and are of the hand operated variety. CP 71st Street is the first change that I would encounter.
This entire set up used to be hand operated switches but was upgraded in the latter 90’s to a control point when this portion of the railroad was equipped with Centralized Traffic Control. There are power switches controlling the crossover switches between the mains, to the controlled siding and to the eastern connection to Clearing Yard, known as the Blue Island lead. The new configuration now allows for two trains to be able to crossover and connect between the IHB and BRC simultaneously. Being that CSX Transportation’s Bedford Park Intermodal Facility is located immediately south of the West Receiving Yard at Clearing, this allows for much timelier handling of trains required to use the Blue Island Lead to connect to and from the IHB and Clearing Yard or Bedford Park.
The controlled siding beginning/ending at 71st Street is all new since I left the Harbor. This was also built with the entire line upgrade as well. It extends from 71st Street to CP 87th Street, another new addition. At CP 71st Street we received a slow approach (red over red over flashing yellow) and were lined to proceed into the controlled siding. A westbound train was waiting on track number one while another was heading west on two. Once Tom was on board, we began our journey starting to roll again at 2028.
Being that I had operated this line so often in the past, I chose to run the train rather than have the pilot run it. All I really needed from him was information as to what and where all the new changes were.
So we head into the controlled siding and rolled on down to CP 87th Street. The slow approach signal tells me to proceed at slow speed (Proceed prepared to stop at the next signal. Slow speed, which is a speed not to exceed 15 MPH, is not to be exceeded until the entire train clears interlocking limits or spring switches, the medium speed applies. Medium speed is a speed not exceeding 30 MPH). At 87th we get a medium clear signal (red over green over red) and cross all the way over to track two. The medium clear allows me to proceed at medium speed through the turnouts and then resume normal speed once the train is all straight and clear of the interlocking limits. Normal speed on this portion of the IHB is 40 MPH. The medium clear also tells me that I will have a proceed signal at CP Ridge, the next signal I encounter.
We roll around Cordy Curve at 95th Street, the sight of a rear end collision last year between an IHB and CN train, and the signal at “The Ridge” comes into view. It displays a clear indication (green over red over red) so we are good to go to at least CP 123rd Street. While there will be a block signal in between the Ridge and 123rd, the worst aspect it should be displaying would be an approach (yellow over red) telling me to immediately reduce to 30 MPH and be prepared to stop.
CP Ridge is located in Chicago Ridge and is the crossing of and connection to Metra’s Southwest Service line. There is a single set of dual controlled power crossovers between the main tracks here and the connection to Metra in the northwest quadrant. This plant is controlled by the IHB West Dispatcher.
We stay on the clear signals all the way to CP123rd Street where received an approach indication. I will proceed preparing to stop, and as the signal at CP Francisco comes into view I see the three “red eyes” displaying a stop signal. On the way down to that stop signal I contact Blue Island Tower, called Grand Trunk Tower on the IHB. He tells us it will be a few minutes before he can handle us and I roll them to a stop at the home signal at 2103 hours.
While waiting I switch radio channels to IC 1 (72-72) and contact the Markham General Yardmaster to inform him of our presence at CP Francisco and his instructions when the time comes to head his way. He informs us that we will have to wait at Western Avenue on the Elsdon Sub for 343 to come down the hill and get the pilot off that train to guide us to Markham. My IHB pilots were qualified on the Elsdon Sub up to Western Avenue so there was no problem in getting there from here when we received a proceed signal.
Just seven short minutes later, we received a slow approach signal at CP Francisco and headed around the connection track towards the Elsdon Sub. The connection track is called track eight where the IHB ends and the GTW begins. Don’t ask as I have no idea why. In know the connection here along side of eight that goes towards Metra’s Rock Island District is called track nine.
We creep through the connection which is also the end of two tracks that parallel number two main called the long track and the industry track and head onto track eight. We cross the Cal Sag Channel on an iron bridge and encounter an approach signal just south (compass) of Broadway Avenue. The Dispatcher that controls the Elsdon Sub, known as TD-4 in Troy, MI, controls this signal and it can take us into the yard here or onto track one or two of the Elsdon Sub. We are now on former GTW territory.
We are crossed all the way over to track one and pull down to Western Avenue. In doing so we pass along side the former yard located between Broadway and Western Avenues. It is still called Blue Island Yard, but is no longer a going concern. It was closed about 1984 if memory serves correct. At one time business was interchanged to and from the Rock Island (later Iowa Interstate) and the IHB here. There were also several jobs that were assigned here to switch the yard and classify this business for trains that originated here. Way back in 1978 I came over here and applied for a job with the Trunk.
Today there are only four tracks remaining. The other handful of other tracks as well as the locomotive servicing track is long gone today. The yard office that occupied an area south of the overpass at 139th Street is also long removed. I do have a few pix from here in happier days when the yard was still open. Now this yard is used for storing cars and for a delivery that comes from Union Pacific everyday on a yard job that operates via the IHB from UP’s Proviso Yard in Melrose Park.
We roll around the big curve at the east end of the yard and pull up to a stop at Western Avenue at 2125 hours. There are block signals on both tracks here numbered 20.6 on track one and 20.8 on track two. The signal on our track displays an approach slow (yellow over yellow), but we cannot proceed here as there are eight zillion road crossings spaced what seems to be every city block apart, so that means we fit absolutely nowhere with our train east of here. In fact, we don’t fit between Broadway and here either. You can squeeze in about 6200 feet of train in between the signals at Western and Broadway. This means our train is hanging out across the plant at Broadway and the road crossing itself. This is a great way to make friends with our neighbors.
When we meet 343 here, we will swap pilots with the IHB crew getting on 343 and the GTW crew getting on our train. Tonight we learn the 510 Railport job would act as our hosts from here to Harvey. While waiting for them to arrive, Markham General calls and tells us that once we have exchanged pilots we can head towards Harvey.
343 arrives the great pilot transfer is made complete and at 2150 hours we begin to roll again towards Harvey. The General informs us there is a Switchtender on duty at the top of the hill at 157th Street to assist with all the switches. Everything up here is still all hand operated switches. While a project is ongoing to power up this plant and install signals to control it all, it is nowhere near complete and all switches are hand operated and under the jurisdiction of the Markham General Yardmaster.
This evening there is chaos at 157th as there are several trains ready to make moves including Amtrak 392. Switchtender DR (Dan) Johnson is running around like a chicken with his head cut off trying to get switches lined and trains moving. 392 is nothing but in the way right now as they are awaiting the pilots of the soon to be arriving Amtrak 59. They cannot proceed from here until they have their pilots. Dan is backing him out of the way so that we can come out and head on into Markham.
“It’s madness I tell you, madness!”
When all was said and done, we finally get our turn and head on Thoroughfare 4 track to Hazel Crest dropping our pilots as we pass the Gateway office at the north end of Markham Yard.
And that was day one.
The following day coming north we picked up the same gang off the 510 Railport job for pilots at Markham. We had done our work already at Markham and now had some 8000 feet of train. The IHB restricts train length to a maximum of 7800 feet, but CN go them to grant an exemption for tonight’s train. This doesn’t happen very often.
When it was our turn, we worked our way down and around the southwest leg of the wye at 157th Street and back onto the Elsdon Sub. We pass under the Chicago Sub and then through the switch that connects to Elsdon Sub number two track. This plant is equipped with dual controlled power switches and signals controlled by the Dispatcher in Troy, MI known as “TD-4.” The drop on the southwest leg of the wye is a short and steep one.
Our journey takes us through Harvey and a connection to CSX Transportation’s Chicago Heights Sub. Up until just a few years ago this line crossed the Elsdon Sub at Harvey at grade. In fact, there was a tower here into the very early 90’s, although I believe it had been closed for several years before finally being torn down. When the two wyes were built at Harvey in the southeast quadrant , this CSX line was smack dab in the way. In exchange for a bunch of cash and trackage rights on the Elsdon Sub, a portion of this line was removed between Harvey and Dolton to allow for construction of the wyes. This connection has been powered up and protected with signals, all controlled by TD-4.
Another spot of note along the way is the former location of the Wyman-Gordon Company. I recall riding past this plant on the road along side of it many times as a kid. Forgings for various applications, including the space program were produced here. Several friends I’ve had over the years had family members that worked at Wyman-Gordon. Today though, the plant is long gone with virtually none of the old facility remaining. In Dixmoor we pass along side the south side of National Railway Equipment Co. NRE is well known within the industry for the repair and rebuilding of locomotives and also leasing locomotives. This facility is accessed by CSX via their Chicago Heights Sub and has no connection with the Elsdon Sub.
We pass under Interstate 57, cross Western Avenue observing an approach indication on signal 20.7; bring the train to a stop at Western to pick up our IHB pilots. This night the Engineer pilot would be an old workmate, Tom Kolwicz. Ironically, the first trip I ever made on the Harbor was with Tom. We exchanged pleasantries and began heading west again. We rolled around the bend and passed Blue Island Yard. We had a stop signal at Broadway Avenue and contact Blue Island Tower about the prospects of getting onto the IHB.
After a short delay we get the signal from TD-4 to crossover and head to track 8 towards the IHB. A few moments later Blue Island Tower calls to tell us to bring them on around as the Harbor can now handle us. We roll under the overhead for Metra’s Rock Island District, past an old trailer used by IHB and GTW crews in the days when IHB crews handled GTW trains over the Harbor, and begin crossing over between the mains and then onto track 8. We roll past the gate tower at the crossing. There is an employee in here 24/7 that manually operates the gates and flashers at Broadway Avenue.
After crossing Broadway Avenue we roll up the grade and across the Cal-Sag Channel. We drop our 510 Railport pilots off just west of the bridge, observe the slow approach signal on the pot and head on west through several more crossovers and onto the IHB for the trip west.
This trip is rather uneventful as well and we are essentially non-stop all the way to CP Canal, except for the brief stop at the Argo yard office to drop off our IHB pilots and head on down to CP Canal.
An observation about the complex area around Broadway Avenue; there are four railroads here, Metra’s Rock Island District which passes above all the other lines, the CSX Blue Island Sub, the IHB and the Elsdon Sub. There are also connections between the IHB and CSX, the IHB and CN, the IHB and Rock Island District. In addition to the previously mentioned railroads, the Iowa Interstate and Chicago Rail Link also use some of the trackage through here. And of the four railroads here at this important junction, I have operated trains on all of them during the course of my career while working for four different railroads; Wisconsin Central, Metra, IHB and now CN.
Over the course of the next few trips over the IHB and Elsdon Sub, the gloss did wear off rather quickly and delays en route have become common. Early in the morning on Monday the 30th we got hammered big time at Broadway. This was the day it was proclaimed I was again qualified on the IHB and we were going it alone so to speak. After an extended stay the IHB West Dispatcher decided they could not take our train as the sand in our hours of service glass was getting low and they had lots of trains to run. During this extended wait, we had Western Avenue blocked while it was decided whether we would stay or go.
“Should I stay or should I go.”
It was finally decided that we would not be going anywhere. TD-4 instructed us to yard the head end of our train in the old Blue Island Yard and clear up Western Avenue. After waiting for an eastbound 766 coal train to pass, we got the signal to make our move. After several minutes of aggravation with Blue Island Tower, we finally got them to answer and got the signal on number 8 track toward the IHB Industry Track at CP Francisco for head room so we could clear up the signal at Broadway and have TD-4 line us into Blue Island Yard.
When all was said and done, the head thirty-three cars and both of our engines were tied up in track three at the old Blue Island Yard and we finally got a cab and headed home.
I did manage to make two trips across the Harbor alone though. I have learned this evening that they have our route reopened and tomorrow (Thursday) we will be operating over our own line across Chicago. Sure, just when I learned the detour route.
I am going to attempt to send a couple of scans under a separate mailing that show the layout around CP Francisco and Broadway. For those that read this on the Illiana and Diesel Locomotive lists, I will try to place these scans in the files sections for your viewing pleasure.
On a sad note; Arvid Cook, the Engineer that founded and nurtured the Illinois Central Santa Claus train for so many years passed away last Friday. I hope you will all join me in extending sympathies to his family and friends. May he rest in peace.
One final note, for my readers in the United States, a safe and healthy Independence Day to you all. Be sure to display Old Glory as part of your celebration.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2003 by JD Santucci
Yeah, I'm still around; even though you haven't seen me post in awhile. I had the opportunity on Monday to do some railfanning, so I thought I would share.
After seeing the Yankees beat the Red Sox, I took a #4 (R62) train downtown to 125th Street. I then transferred to the #6, and continued downtown on an R142A until GCT. I transferred to the #7, and got a redbird local. While manning the railfan window the entire time, I took the redbird to 111th Street. I crossed over, and got another redbird back to 74th Street. I went downstairs to the Roosevelt station, and caught an E train to 23rd Street-Ely Ave. My car was not jammed during the rush hour, since I chose to sweat in an un-air conditioned environment. From Ely Ave I took the people mover (yes, they were both working and going in the peak direction) to Court Square and caught the G to Greenpoint Avenue, and from there I had a nice evening with some relatives.
I hope all subtalkers had a wonderful holiday weekend, and I wish all those near mass transit some good railfanning times this summer!
-Nick
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd be shocked if the TA was paid for those.
Peace,
ANDEE
(forget Newt Gingrich cheating on three wives)
Aggggh. Better call it a night or we all know where I'm headed. Weapons of mass destruction? Oh I wish I could be like that the way I'm honked off now - alas, live upstate and despite the nasty heat and humididity, I'll take a nap rather than get even MORE worked up about this, but man ... Unca Selkirk is HONKED. Not that the frigging republicans care - they didn't get laid last night, so damned well nobody ELSE is gonna EITHER ... that's what impeachments are all about - trashing the ECONOMY so only WorldCon (excuse me, "MCI now") and EnRon (esxcuse me, KEYSPAN) get over. Just WAIT until you get your electric bill, FERC just allowed them to recover their costs which are now 300% of what the were. Oh, let's nuke California Governor Gray Davis, it's HIS fault that NYC's rates ... oh nevermind, vote for the Commander in Cheap ... Bush SAVED the world. Nevermind. :(
Its a shame the TA does this. This guy brightened up the atmosphere a little for the TAs customers, something he didn't have to do. Also it promotes the anti-TA attitutde within the ranks of employees.
Nope, FUN is banished, the HUMANITY of the system shall be trodden underfoot in the name of the mighty Ashcroft. Life is SUPPOSED to suck and by ghod, republicans are there to PROVE it. Slick Willie got some nookie, republicans can't. Aggggh. :(
Bottom line though, the GOP won't be happy until EVERYBODY has as much zest in life as Strom or Ronnie raygun. Happiness is a forbidden thought, do NOT share your joy of life with ANYONE or we'll GET you. :(
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Always the "monsters under the bed".
Americans get the government they deserve.
Keep electing know-nothing state governors to the White House (take note: The last member of the United States Senate elected to the Presidency was (drum roll) John F. Kennedy!!!) and you get a Chief Executive who needs 18 months to fully understand how the federal political establishment works. They go from being a big fish in a small pond to a liitle fish in a very big lake.
On Topic part: Here in Baltimore we have a transit authority that has no idea what to do next. It lurches from one crisis to another. Mismanaged bus system, no vision at all and a rail system that has tracks and cars but cannot handle heavy loads.
Michael
Washington, DC
Peace,
ANDEE
Mark
But, the real reason is to minimize the amount of light that enters the T/Os cab when the train is in a tunnel.
Peace,
ANDEE
But seriously, I saw a TV show once about South Africa's Blue Train, a luxury land cruise line. Every passenger compartment had a TV set, and one channel was a closed circuit feed from a camera at the nose of the train.
Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
If they wanted to stop you from looking at the T/O, there would be NO window at all.
For example, try driving an automobile at night with the interior light on.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why is is, ever time you post you have to say it was to "dance tango". WHO CARES?
Am I correct?
Michael
Washington, DC
I understand that on MNRR you only need to qualify for one division (Hudson, Harlem or NH) but on the LIRR you have to know the whole RR.
Out here , you only need to know your division and you only need to know it in one direction. Mandan to Glendive is your segment, East of Mandan is a Fargo job, not a Mandan job. (They used to be 100 mile jobs, but now they are all 200 mile jobs.)
And who gives a rats posterior appendage what the line looks like in Texas, eh?
A typical LIRR job might be Babylon-NYP-PortJeff-Nyp-Babylon
http://www.nycrail.com/cgi-bin/messageboard/messages/2764.html
direct to the photos
http://public.fotki.com/rudayday/flushing_g/
I never saw this one mentioned here before (field trip anyone?)
I'm game!
As long as the acquisition is limited, I don't think this will be a problem. In fact, NIMBY opposition continues to be muted. I think people will understand that alternative users of the the money will latch onto any local opposition to call for more "planning" and "study."
Most successful opposition to eminent domain has been on the public use question -- displacing one form of development for another. This is an actual public use.
Mark
Station entrances and vent towers, 2-3 parcels per station according to the article. Some could be easements -- taking part of a building for a stairway out.
Most NIMBY pretests in NYC are fabricated by advocacy groups who are supported by very few people and local politicians looking for kickbacks
Real estate valuation is a long term investment. More convient transportation increases the attractiveness of the properties
It is difficult to imagine property values on Second Avenue south of 96th Street going any higher. The actual question is the reverse -- will the increasingly hellish commute on the Lex LOWER property values, as people are less willing to live there? I believe the SAS would allow property values and development to keep going in the direction they have been going -- higher and higher.
Sure there will need to be some condemnations, and a few people will lose their businesses. But it will be tiny compared to virtually any other public improvement of this size.
I think the MTA is being very careful to minimize the impact. For example, they deliberately rejected the shallow Chrystie option because of the assumed negative impact on the neighborhood.
That truly is a shame. I was hoping that they would keep the shallow Christie option available so that they could build switches allowing 2nd av trains to use the manhattan bridge. If they could at least build a ramp up, that would be great.
Which do you prefer: a SAS that gets built deep, or one that would get built shallow except would be delayed by 50 years of community opposition?
: )
Mark
(Well, not all of them are missing location data, some of them have locations in the Notes: field. Ignore those!).
This one looks like survey info they were using to plan the SF loop and Joralemon St tubes (IRT Lex to Brooklyn).
BTW, do you want the suggestions here or in feedback?
Also what info would you like us to give on the diagrams? or is it they're thrown in there by an automated script and you really don't anything on them?
And I can't post them any bigger without going back and rescanning. You could buy a copy of the book they came from if you need more detail.
--Mark
It looks to be the White Plains Road line (I agree with you Mark)
somewhere south of Gun Hill Road.
In resizing the caption for 79 St looks distorted, so it actually looks like a 76. So there is a 76 Street station just the tileworkers installed the sixes upside-down!!
:-P
These look like Freeman St judging from the signal #s and the structure on the N/E of the N/B platform.
Actually there's one pic of an R-1 supposedly in Queens Plaza IND but actually in Queensboro Plaza North side...
8th Avenue on the L. (img_3658.jpg)
Antoher at 8th Avenue (img_3624.jpg)
80 Street (img_5444.jpg)
That's all I can get
south of Fordham Road on 3rd ave el
125th st/Lexington Ave IRT
Thanks it was driving me nuts as I recognized the pale green tile and the lack of light near the upper part of the wall.
I think this is at New utrect av
I dunno about that. the buildings and wall don't match.
- img_6459: just north of Brighton Beach
- img_7171: near Fordham Rd. on the 3rd Ave el (guessing south)
- img_3206: South of Dyre Ave.
- img_2298: Definatley 160th St.
- img_2283: Crescent Street
- img 2252: 111th Street
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_4499.jpg
--Mark
Two thousand zero zero party over oops out of time :)
--Mark
--Mark
Something about freeing somebody.
The last word appears to be "unfair." It's probably related to some sort of labor action.
--Mark
--Mark
Ok zoomed in with a different app. ---- -- Free Unfair. Still no clue what the other 2 are.
-Dave
--Mark
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_5463.jpg
Chaohwa
Chaohwa
Chaohwa
Chaohwa
Since these photo notes mention Mahattan Valley viaduct, they should be near 125 Street/Broadway Station.
Chaohwa
9th Ave, upper levelWest End Line
If it was North Conduit & Pitkin ... first I don't know the street was every configured like that there, and what is the third crossing street (without the el) in the right foreground?
What other intersection could possibly have those parkway-style lights?
The fact that we have C-types, and the appearance of the Kings County-style structure stromgly argue that it is on Pitkin Avenue. I've stated my problem with it being Conduit, and frankly I have no more ideas at this point. Maybe in the morning I will have an inspiration. :)
It can't be Conduit & Pitkin; there never was an el there. I'm going to second Conduit, Euclid, and Liberty, looking southeast from Conduit; the Pitkin el turned north at Euclid and east onto Liberty, so the station at left would be Crescent St, and the el-less street at lower right would be Liberty. The el, at right, is making its turn onto Euclid from Liberty.
The 1910 track map shows Crescent Street as side platform.
I think img_6600.jpg is of the now defunct and demolished Fulton St. el at the 3-way intersection of Conduit Blvd and Euclid and Liberty Avenues. I think the view is roughly southeast on Conduit. The T or Y shaped streetlights in the image are on Conduit, and are like the ones I've seen on Conduit about 36 years ago. This would make the station visible at upper left Crescent St. which makes sense because
Crescent is one block east of Euclid Avenue. The ad on the building
at mid-left edge says "corner Liberty Avenue" which would be right
there if I am correct, and seems like more than a coincidence. The
light el construction is like the el construction I've seen in other
images of the BMT Fulton St. el. "Karl B" please comment.
Have you looked at and pondered BMT C type el car img_7981.jpg ? I
think it might be the Fulton el on Euclid between Pitkin and Liberty
Avenues, but I have no proof from what's visible in the photo, and my
hunch on this one is nowhere near as strong as the one for img_6600.jpg.
img_2561 - B. 60th St-Straiton Ave.
img_24570 - B. 90th St-Holland
This is also Hewes street from the opposite direction (note buildings are the same, and you can see the Willy in the backround.
This can be narrowed to either Central or Knickerbocker Ave. (Maybe someone can take it one step further). The M line has a trackway for a third track, but there is no track anymore. (It can't be any of the Jamaica stations as there is no trackway, just a space), and of course Broadway always had a track, so that only leaves Central or Knickerbocker.
This and this are at the same location, so if we get one, then we have the other. It's got to be the Broadway el (or possibly the Fulton El). Can those cars fit on one of the Bronx IRT els (since apparently it was a fantrip), because then I don't have a chance, if we can rule that out, and that it's not the no gone Fulton El, I can probably place it at one of the Broadway el stations by that building in the backround, although, so many buildings are now missing from along the Broadway El.
I don't know why we assume Jamaica el. There was no regular 'C' type service there. I would assume Liberty Avenue el where there are plenty of stations that look like that with a center track.
subfan
Take this photo:
This one is labeled "Flushing Avenue" and thankfully it is because if this was one of the unknown locations, we'd all be scratching our heads trying to figure out where this unique theatre building is, but it would be hard because Woodhull Hospital now occupies it's site. (although I do recognize the still standing white building behind it with the arched windows).
Back to the photo below. Chauncey and Lorimer are both stations both had a considerable amount of it's surrounding old neighborhood buildings removed to build apartment complexes. But then again it could be any of the stations along Broadway and just that one building had been removed. So unless someone can identify that "torn-down" building, or someone can identify it on Fulton Street facing where the el used to be, I guess it will remain a mystery:
Its now an HSBC. I was thinking that also, but wasn't too sure about it.
img_17503.jpg & img_17504.jpg
These are definitely Knickerbocker, I'd know that ugly building anywhere:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_6631.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_6637.jpg
These can all be narrowed to the M-Myrtle line at Knickerbocker or Central because of the trackway mentioned in my other post:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_6730.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_6636.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_6634.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_6642.jpg
Jimmy
I will have more locations tommorrow, but I have to check them out first. I cannot say the nearest station name unless I am POSITIVELY sure.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
img_24364: #3067 @ 104th Street-Oxford Avenue
img_2383: #3002 @ 111th Street-Greenwood Avenue
img_2400: #3025 @ 80th Street-Hudson Street
img_2428: #3081 @ 36th Street BMT Yard
img_2436: #3094 @ Cross Harbor Yard-2nd Avenue, Brooklyn
img_2460: #3141 @ Concourse Yard
img_2583: #3342 @ 111th Street-Greenwood Avenue
img_2468: #3164 @ Cross Harbor Yard-2nd Avenue, Brooklyn
img_2494: #3210 @ Cross Harbor Yard-2nd Avenue, Brooklyn
-William A. Padron
["Mr. R-10"]
img_2589: #3100 @ 80th Street-Hudson Street, NOT @ 111th Street-Greenwood Avenue as stated on the R-10 car page.
-William A. Padron
["Mr. R-10"]
-William A. Padron
["Mr. R-10"]
However, img_24357.jpg lists the R-10 car number (seen in the aqua blue and white striped paint scheme) in the photo @ 80th Street-Hudson Street as #3381. I believe that is an error because the highest road car number built of the fleet was #3349, but the station location as depicted is correct.
-William A. Padron
["Mr. R-10"]
img_2885.jpg: R-15 #5999 @ Simpson Street [IRT #2/#5]
img_2855.jpg: R-15 #5954 @ Intervale Avenue-163rd Street [IRT #2/#5]
img_2870.jpg: R-15 #5980, BRAND NEW @ Stillwell - Sea Beach platform
img_2898.jpg: R-15 #6230 @ E. Tremont Av.-W. Farms Square [IRT #2/#5]
img_2892.jpg: R-15 #6222 leaving 170th Street-Jerome Avenue [IRT #4]
And I will throw in an R-1/9 series image as well...
img_1795.jpg: R-1 #173 (alcohol spray train) @ Kings H'way-Brighton.
Now, the R-10 fleet corrections I am offering, and that shall be all on this thread from my own part...
img_2400.jpg: R-10 #3025 @ 88th Street-Boyd Avenue, NOT 80th Street-Hudson Street as I stated in my original message. I personally made some very detailed differences between the two locations on this web page and in my personal photo collection afterward to finally determine the rightful and most accurate location, so I stand now corrected on this matter with deep regret on the error.
img_2412.jpg & img_2413.jpg: The actual R-10 car number in both interior photos I had originally taken was #3043, and NOT #3243. The 110 GOH cars done in green were of the Westinghouse electrical and control type taken from the original road car numbered #2950-#2974, #3000-#3049 and #3100-#3224 series.
-William A. Padron
["Mr. R-10"]
Image 4979 (R32 delivery). Looks close at the third rail, that shot is at the New York Central's Mott Haven coach yard, before the cars made their demo trip into Grand Central. (I went to high school right next to this yard, got all too many lumps on the head from very accurately launched erasers, which looking sidewalks out of the classroom toward the tracks!!
Image 24537 is also at NYC Mott Haven Yard.
Image 4730 is on board a carfloat (DUH!) as it is being docked at the LIRR LIC Yard. There are also photos of this particular car coming back onto solid rails-on-ground in a couple of the LIRR calendars from the Long Island Sunrise Trail Chaprter-NRHS.
Sorry I couldn't help with more....but it is a challenge!!
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_4214.jpg
The only clue here is the trees, and the lack of buildings. The only place on the Flushing Line I recall like this (where there is a 3-track local platform) is 52nd St-Lincoln Avenue.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_24375.jpg
Looks like the Culver Line. I'm pretty sure it's not Avenue I...may be Ditmas.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_3376.jpg
Looks like 241 St-Wakefield, White Plains Road line - judging by the #2 sign. If it's misplaced, then it could be Pelham Bay Pk or Woodlawn, but it's definitely not 242/Bway.
It does
subfan
I'm not sure this is important, since image 6713 is evidently a builders photo, but for what it's worth the shot was almost certainly taken at the Pullman-Standard plant in Chicago, Illinois. That's where the "Green Hornet" was built (as opposed to all of the P-S PCC streetcars, which were built in the ex-Osgood-Bradley plant in Worcester, Mass).
Frank Hicks
God, I miss the city's largest mezzanine. Can't wait for next summer.
The list of unknown locations on these pictures is slowly dwindling.
Next Monday, pictures on the Sea Beach line and a final say on that R11 at either Cortelyou or BeverlEY road that I was no sure on.
Image 6495 looks like BMT Canarsie at either 1st or 3rd Avenue. I think there's a positively identified image just like it on your site
(looks like it was from the same shoot, a few seconds away) but with-
out the two people on the platform in the foreground.
Image 6729 is Fresh Pond Yard. The giveaway is the backs of the six-
family houses visible in the upper left corner, which are visible in
many other images of the Fresh Pond Yard. I've seen the backs of those
houses most of my life, riding the M train.
Image 6591 is somewhere over Pitkin Avenue on the Fulton El. The clue
is the building visible just to the left of the vanishing point. It's
probably PS 159, on the north side of Pitkin between Crescent and
Hemlock Streets. One can see this building loom progressively larger
on the horizon as one looks through images of the Fulton el over
Pitkin, starting with 6591 (which I suppose is either Hinsdale, Penn-
sylvania or Van Siclen) and progressing eastward to Linwood, Montauk and Chestnut. Recall that east of Chestnut, the Fulton el turned north-north west off Pitkin onto Euclid, then to Liberty, then turned east north east onto Liberty. Once over Liberty (like at Crescent St.) one no longer sees "probably PS 159" looming on the horizon, in
the Fulton El images.
I worked out the above when I studied the Fulton el images closely in
late June 2002. I will check and see if I have any more info on this.
I will post it next Monday (the 14th) if I do.
Avenue U
Bay Parkway I almost had my leg swallowed alive by a bouncing stair that was going to give way any second at the Avenue O side.
Kings Highway
20th Avenue
That's it, peeling paint, bad stations, ho hum.
Next week: Finally, the B110 issue with me getting a chance to ride it. Look for that in Bustalk.
My rides:
B8 NF 818
N R40 4435
N R40 4296
Well...the Sea Beach has the Brighton beat when it comes to daylight shadow play in the cars. All those mini-tunnels, on a sunny day...man, it's almost like strobe lights. Or early motion pictures. It's a soothing effect; gives the rider a simple yet accurate feeling of "briskly moving along". A lot of that is probably subconcious and subliminal. But I like the dark-bright-dark-bright-dark-bright visual syncopation of the ride. On the Brighton this effect is for a much shorter duration. Now obviously, this is not a real quantifiable "benefit" of the Sea Beach. Like the line itself though, its value is a subtle thing but worthy of appreciation. I really gotta take a video of this, from say Kings Hwy to 8th Ave.
Unidentified: img_7248.jpg > Compare to img_7317.jpg
1000% sure the unidentified pic is Concourse Yard with Jerome Av in the background. In fact, if you look closely, you'll see a #4 train on the elevated tracks. That and the odd shaped chimney with a Citicorp Centre-type slant matches in both photos.
Unidentified: img_2639.jpg > Compare to img_5593.jpg
Cortelyou Road comes to mind, the overhead girders supporting the fare control area match. It eliminates Beverly Road since it is a curved station, and eliminates the Sea Beach line since overhead passages are supported by concrete walls except at 8 Av and Fort Hamilton Pkwy.....which are definitely not in the unidentified pic.
Tried my best.
Is labeled "Bay Parkway (BMT Sea Beach)"
Definitely not Sea Beach! (It's elevated) and can't be Bay Parkway because too many buildings behind station.
(22nd Ave / Bay Pkwy is besides a cemetery and has a shorter overhang)
By the location of the of the stairs, and the partial sign that says "Avenue" could either be Avenue I on the Culver line or Avenue P.
-Larry
Definitely ain't Sea Beach though.
It's probable that the cemetery is there, but the buildings behind it create an optical illusion.
Avenue U on the N line. Just look at the houses!
What bothers me is that it is in the name of nothing at all.
WHY!?
(This rant is referring to the article that came out in the NY Times today. The link is here. HERE
Nothing bad happened. He was being responsible. I am sick of people who work for the MTA carrying out the letter of the law to the Nth degree for its own sake. It's not "The MTA's" fault. It's the fault of the spineless human being who carries out the order. And in this case, it is the station supervisor.
I believe that we, the viewing and appreciative public, should make our voices heard on the matter. In fact, I believe we should give that station supervisor a hard time. As hard of a time as we can. We should make it more difficult for him/her to carry out the letter of the law when it is for no apparent reason, than otherwise. On a very small scale, I find their actions to be outrageous. Why? Because it is people like Mr. Poem who make their corner of New York City, New York City. And we are having the character and charm of that little corner of our great city taken away from us. And I believe it is representative of the potential for much of what our city has become over the years to be chipped away at the edges. How much will we lose?
I belive that the phone number of the station supervisor is available on the wall in the station, by mandate of the same stupid rules that are silencing something beautiful in a sea of grey. I will get that phone number. I plan to call and voice my personal outrage. I hope that anybody here, who feels the same way will do the same. I will post that phone number in this thread as soon as I get it. If someone happens to use High Street, I would appreciate it, if you could jot it down and post it here, if you get to it before I do.
-Andrew Merelis
Resident of New York City
Owner of Monthly Metrocard
(don't mind me, Unca Selkirk got his foreclosure notice today) ... I want to KILL anyone registered republican, and if I'm out of a home, might as well do that in a hail of bullets. :(
Really, well rest assured that your EXCELLENT PRODUCT has gone no further than this machine.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm going to close off my part in this thread here and just say that the current regime has destroyed the internet upon which I make my living by failing to bring law and order to it - the SPAM problem in particular - anyone ever wonder where all that spam comes from? HIJACKED PERSONAL machines whose owners are on cable modems or DSL and got literally hijacked. The spammers are criminal gangs in Argentina and the Netherlands who use the machines of innocent people to send along their p*nis pill ads. That BOClean thingy we make detects and stops the hijacking along with other malware. But you'd THINK that these criminal gangs would be stopped. Instead, the administration is listening to the Direct Mailers Assn and about to present a spam bill that would LEGALIZE these hijackings. But I won't go any further off topic, we have the solution, very few people are interested. Until their ISP knocks them off for all the spam going through their machines. :(
And as to the house, we're talking to a foreign government that might "take us in." :)
What can you expect from the Napster generation? :-)
Tom
There's going to be some rude awakenings coming soon in that reality though - AOL/TW and others are about to do their revenge.
Aren't those tech jobs slowly being outsourced overseas and to workers on special permits (H1-B).
There's going to be some rude awakenings coming soon in that reality though - AOL/TW and others are about to do their revenge.
Are you referring to how RIAA is going to round up P2P users, sue them in court for large amounts of money, and placing music piracy back into the hands of the guy on the street? I guess I won't need a high-speed ISP anytime soon. But then, there's Freenet. :-P
BTW, which foreign government will take you? :-D
---
And as to the house, we're talking to a foreign government that might "take us in." :)
---
If the foreign government you're speaking with is the same one I'm thinking about right now, let me know if there's anything I can help you with. Good luck!
-Robert King
As to the "foreign government," indeed it does look like my home will end up in the hands of foreign financiers at a pretty righteous rate and I'm EVER so grateful to be out from under a really chitty deal. The 11% interest rate to a Texas bank was a major reason for the problems. 4% is MUCH better. As always, us upstaters are grateful to the nation that treats us like the friendly neighbors we've been for years. :)
(in case anybody wonders why I'm off on this, republicans have just about put me out of a home, and foaming at mouth about the Supreme Court allowing gays to be terrorists according to GOP radio) ... if EVER there was anything to fear, it's the current regime that's putting us ALL out of a home and a job. But hey, the morons who PUT us in this situation are doing better than ever at the bank. Agggh.
Curious how that Marine in South Carolina had a mystery car wreck on his way to talk to reporters about the "staged rescue" of Jessica Lynch and how it was BS ... ah well, just like those Arkansas State troopers who saw Bubba off republicans, here we are with a CLINTON STYLE mystery ... but man, after what showed up at my door this morning, after the economy being SO bad for our company that I ain't had a paycheck in WEEKS, well ... PHARK YOU republicans ... government contracts UNPAID are the reason why I'm in this mess, about to be dispossessed.
But hey, WORLDCON'S back in the books and selling stocks. I owned K-Mart and others, bankrupt and so am I now ... MY investments were thrown away with blessings of the GOP. Sieg Shrub. Bend for the Taliban, our "leader" wants to outDO them. :(
Hail to the THIEF.
Selkirk, you've lost your mind. You have no clue as to what Republicans are.
So yeah, be a dittohead, you can go to hell with the rest of them. No PERSONAL offense intended, but if you're a republican, PHUCK YOU.
This "silencing" may be regrettable but is scarcely unique to the MTA. Would you talk critically of your employer in a public forum?
Not anymore. :(
PLEASE, take your head out of your ass and WAKE UP to the facts. Only 6 firehouses were closed in NYC this year.
Peace,
ANDEE
I couldn't agree more - the average middle-class taxpayer gets the shaft from both!!
I'm one ANGRY fugger right now. Ya work 7 days a week, 16 hours a day and STILL nobody has money to buy your hard work. ONLY in America. The *REST* of the world still HAS an econolmy, but our GOP morons have pissed them all off, so NOBODY in a foreign land is buying ANYTHING American, not even Canadians. :(
Sieg Heil, shrub. :(
American and Canadian relations aren't as good as they were, that's for sure. A good chunk of it is due to our bumbling Prime Minister but he certainly isn't entirely at fault. It's doubly worse for you guys because there are a lot of Americans who at the same time adamantly refuse to do business with the rest of the world, putting everybody off... I wrote about that a bit further down.
-Robert King
Meanwhile, the global economy goes away with remarkable speed and eventually the smarmy types who think everything's nifto cool keen will find themselves out of a job too. Now that they're off the hook, maybe WorldCon is hiring. Enron's about to stage a comeback too. :)
Consider eBay auctions. More and more of them have 'Will ship to USA only' selected and an increasing number of sellers are writing long diatribes about it in their discriptive text. Consider this example, which is quite mild compared to some I've seen:
---
Unless otherwise specified above shipping will be via United States Postal Services (USPS) Priority Mail. All items will be shipped with insurance and with USPS Delivery Confirmation. Shipping will be completed within 10 days of receipt of your payment. We usually ship the Saturday after we receive your payment. We will only ship to the USA, period.
---
I'd have quoted one of the better ones I've seen but that was conveniently at hand because it was from an auction that I had to have a friend who lives in the United States place a bid for me. My friend had to pay the seller and have the item shipped to his place. I have to reimburse my friend and have him ship the damn thing for me. Just last night, I was on the phone with the friend, talking him through a quick test run of a piece of electronics to find out if it worked so we'd know whether or not to leave the seller positive feedback. It's a complete pain in the ass and I'd be stuck if I didn't have that friend in the states. If Americans don't want to do business with me, that's fine; if I can't source things locally, I'll turn to Europe instead.
Sometimes it works the other way around: foreigners can't do business with Americans because it's the Americans who don't want them to.
-Robert King
Either way, unless you're talking about model subway cars this is way off topic.
I am the Editor of the Baltimore Streetcar Museum's newsletter, The Live Wire, and 99% of the copies are mailed under our bulk permit.
However, 3 issues are sent to members oustside the US (2 in Canada and one in the Netherlands) and by the USPS regs must be sent Air Mail.
Same reg applies to packages, and by weight that runs into a big charge.
Why?
Because the postage rates are outrageous. And that alone scares off the bidders. When you are selling a model that's worth ten bucks, and it costs $13.00 to ship it to, say, Great Britain, you think people are going to want to bid on it? I can send the same item Priority Mail for $3.95 here in the USA....and about the same to Canada.
The international issue works in reverse too. I have had trouble purchasing maps from Canadian sources that didn't take credit cards.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You were had by your greedy banker. I can understand a $15.00 charge to trace a check on some small Bolivian bank, but for a Canadian Postal Money Order? They know, or should have known with one telephone call where it should be routed for collection.
Tom
Next time, you'll know what to do.
Next time, you'll know what to do.
He did get US funds. And the bank was demanding a commission of $15, which is not small.
Some banks give you a break if you have enough money on deposit with them.
I do not recall whether Canadian government paper (postal money order) can be cashed at a US post office. Perhaps this is another option.
if anyone has the appropriate e-maol for directing a complaint, please post--a phone call from CA seems excessive.
Yes, being a manager requires a balancing act. But so does being a moral human being. If the Satation Supervisor was following orders, then I would be just as mad at the Station Supervisor as I am as the person who passed down the order from higher up. And if that person, in turn, was in the same position, I would be mad at all of them. Where does the buck stop?
In a world of increasing accountability, it's amazing that we still can't seem to morally deal with issues pertaining to accountability along the links in the chain of command.
If I found out that the order came from higher up on the chain, I would be less mad at the Station Supervisor, but still disappointed, and most of my wrath would be aimed up to the next level.
But, the article made it seem otherwise. Upon a closer reading, you might find mention of how station supervisors come and go more quickly than token booth clerks, implying that how lax or strict a supervisor is, is their own choice of authority style.
So, while I understand the intricacies of the chain of command, I am still very upset, and for now, because I don't have more information, I'm mad at the Station Supervisor.
-Andrew
The press tends to do that more often than not.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
The possibilities include an unreasonable supervisor, or an unreasonable manager above the supervisor who ordered the supervisor to do what she did.
I'm glad you raised the issue with MTA.
The Station Supervisor probably has a family. Are you willing to support him/her after being fired for failure carry out the instructions of his/her immediate supervisor?
By using that reasoning, it is also Mr Poem's fault for carrying out the supervisor's orders.
Let's face it, we're not talking about the Nuremberg Trials here, its just a supervisor telling a subordinate not to write poems on the blackboard or play musical instruments in the booth.
Is THAT what this thread is all about? Poetry and music?
Larry, RedbirdR33
If they were really slick they'd try to get Delta in on the deal, licensing their logo to the train operator like they do to with commuter airlines and using codesharing between the train and Delta flights.
Mark
Doesn't a single airport serve Cincinnati and Louisville? If so, a Downtown Louisville--airport--Downtown Cincinati light rail line might make sense.
Covington, Kentucky, to be specific.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mark
Which is why its code is CVG.
Thus concludes my off-topic run-down of all you probably didn't want to know about my hometown airport. :O)
Train Rolls in, Signaling End to Louisville-to-Indy Trips
Mark
D Train to Allentown? LOL!
My west is more rural than your west!
Here you can drive OR ride a horse! : )
Elias (in North Dakota)
For that matter, you can take the E two stops to 7th Avenue if it comes first.
The transfer to the D is across the platform at either one.
;-) Andrew
NY WATERWAY
http://mathiasen.com/scantran/
Here's a teaser photo of the Stockholm T-Bana.
Stockholm names their T-Bana cars - every one is unique!
I can see the jokes that leads too also. If a particular car is hot, "Boy that Caroline is a hot one!".
Did you get to ride the Oslo T-Bane, or just its trams?
Mark
Mark
But, one thing that interested me was that the cars have an exterior door just for the motorman (or woman as the case often was) that they could open right from the cab and hop out to watch boarding/unboarding passengers at stops.
Mark
Sunday's (day before yesterday) Crescent came up from Washington behind AEM7 #914.
Chaohwa
Michael
Washington, DC
Mark
Chaohwa
Why? Planning on getting dumped out at sea along with them? ;)
I called them, the report should be on-line shortly.
Peace,
ANDEE
I am looking forward to email this story to #4 Sea Beach Fred as soon as it's online.
Like I've said numberous times, the Brighton Line has the best express service in the world.
Aside from the fact that it runs shorter than the express.
Typical. The only train they'll admit is good is the one that is about to be eliminated.
BTW, the Concourse line is one of my favorites for all the right reasons, including the ONLY location in the entire subway system that is physically above a highway, WHILE still in a tunnel (174/175th Streets.)
Jimmy
Yeah, that is some outstanding engineering. That's like, taking the standard grid X Y pattern and adding some ZZZZZs. And when you stand down on the street fronting the station entrance, and look up at the Grand Concourse...it is almost jarring. It defies planar logic. The Bronx terrain has engendered numerous similar constructs. I feel it's way too unheralded.
Jimmy
This train was three minutes late, even accounting for the five minute pad. I guess math is not Cuza's strong suit.
57th-34th: 4 minutes
34th-Kings Hwy: 31 minutes
Kings Hwy-BBC: 6 minutes
Making it exactly 5 minutes late?
BTW I learned as a TW/O that lateness has to be accounted for when it reaches 2 minutes late, although its not officially late until it hits 5 minutes.
What's so special about it?
Jimmy
--Mark
Koi
--Mark
Koi
Welcome to SubTalk!
Now the opening to my original post, A non-SubTalker subway fan co-worker..., incorrect.
--Mark
Bob
I suspect if Bob was into that kinda stuff, he would have moved to New York YEARS ago. :)
Don't want you guys to think I skipped out on you, but the heat down there was even making the rats and roaches cry.
Jimmy
More to follow when I get to it.
Maybe Koi will describe the excitement in the mean time.
The excitement happened early in our trip, as a NYPD officer pulled Koi off the Redbird at Grand Central for committing the crime of taking video on MTA. He produced a printed regulation backing up his position. He was very polite (so was Koi) and said that he was doing what he had to do. When he was nearly finished writing Koi’s ticket, I asked whether it would be OK for me to photograph him writing the ticket. His reply discouraged me from doing so.
We returned to the platform as another eastbound Redbird rolled in, headed by 9712 and 9713, the Subway Series cars. That was the silver lining on the cloud of Koi’s ticket. Shortly after coming out of the tunnel in Queens, we saw an M7 train on the LIRR.
We rode to Main Street and back to Times Square, on another Redbird. From Times Square, Koi wanted to ride the west end of the next eastbound Redbird express, and I wanted to take outdoor (daylight) photos, so I took the next train to 61st Street/Woodside Ave and got a lot of Redbird shots. We counted six different Redbird trains on the line. There could have been more. CleanAirBus walked up to me on the platform at Woodside/61st and asked whether I knew who he is. I couldn’t remember ‘CleanAirBus’ at the time, so I said ‘Yes, you’re ‘Transit is my drug; Carleton’. We had a nice visit, even though he got excited by a bus down on the street.
Six R62A expresses came along before the first Redbird express, and I managed to ‘run’ from the westbound platform to the eastbound and get on. We were almost to Willits Point before I made my way to the last car and met up with Koi again.
Upon our second return to Times Square, I headed home and Koi headed for another Redbird to Main Street.
My Webshots photos start on this page, 8th photo, and conclude on page 2.
There's another poster who mentioned earlier if they wanted to meet up at TS to railfan the 7. He said he was going to be with a friend would would videotape the ride via the RFW. You may have spotted hin, then.
We stopped at Woodside at 4:50 PM heading to Times Square; we were in the last car.
Bob
Fight the ticket! Thats absolutely ridiculous. Sounds like something "Candid Camera" would do. Cops have the time to harass railfans on the subway for filming, but where are they when someone is driving and talking on the cellphone? Someone was doing just that was behind the wheel of a Jeep Grand Cherokee, distracted he hit and injured a pedestrian who needed medical attention.
Unfortunately, the driver, drove away making this a hit and run.
Fortunately quite a few of us copied down the license plate number on the Jeep. The pedestrian was hurt pretty badly, and needed an ambulance. Quite a disturbing scene. Which could've been prevented if the driver on the cell was pulled over and ticketed.
Then again I dont really blame the cop in your ticket blitz incident, he has orders from Gloomberg to ticket or get his pay cut.
I checked the MTA'S rules and it seems it treats still photography and video recording the same in these regards.
We told the officer that this was our understanding.
Concerning John's advice to fight it, vacation days are too precious for Koi to burn one only to wind up paying the $25 plus costs.
"Section 1050.9
Restricted areas and activities.
c. Photography, filming or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors or tripods may not be used. Members of the press holding valid identification issued by the New York City Police Department are hereby authorized to use necessary ancillary equipment. All photographic activity must be conducted in accordance with the provision of these Rules."
The cop that gave me the summons wrote that I had violated rule 1050.9(c) on the summons; he also wrote "PO observed respondent video filming inside #7 train subway car w/o the authority of MTA" for the details of the violation. He told me that filming in the subway is not allowed and it has been like this every since 9/11. The cop showed me some regulation about unauthorized videotaking or photography is not allowed in the system and he said that I would have to have a permit to video film in the subway.
Now my question is which rule is correct since what the cop told me and what is currently on MTA's website (what's in the quotes at the beginning of this post) are inconsistent. I've never heard anything about a permit being required to use a camcorder in the subway prior to this incident. If the cop's version of the rules are the official version, then MTA should reflect that on their website.
What you saw posted on the MTA website was only just posted there recently, although the law's been in effect for several years. If you call NYCT to ask about permits, you'll be informed that (a) yes, they're required, but (b) no, they're not actually being issued.
I hope you decide to fight the ticket. I suspect you'll win, but I think we'd all be interested to hear the outcome in either case. Good luck.
Wow, this is getting interesting. He wrote that you violated that rule, but that rule says that video recording IS OK!. But then you said he had an addendum to section 1050.9(c)? I would most DEFINITELY fight this, and say that the rules, as posted on the website, show that this is SPECIFICALLY LEGAL.
Koi
(Granted, when I had a similar open-and-shut case with a parking ticket, I lost, because the judge didn't actually bother to read my letter, and I had to later appeal the decision.)
Koi
Koi
Jimmy
Koi
Koi
Jimmy
Koi
The excitement happened early in our trip, as a NYPD officer pulled Koi off the Redbird at Grand Central for committing the crime of taking video on MTA.
You must have missed my above quoted post. If you'd like me to stop by (maybe you don't), please reply here or send me an email. Thanks.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Anyway, we would more than willing to have you on our Post Jervis Trip next Saturday.
He's got the same Saturday issues that I do. Maybe change the trip to Sunday? :) I didn't suggest that earlier because I thought the PJ trains on Sunday ran on a totally different and less convenient schedule.
I don't ride trains on Saturdays except after dark. You weren't planning to begin the Port Jervis trip at 10pm, were you?
:0)
--Mark
Stay in your car.
OR it might have that EMPTY SEAT you're looking for!
MTA publishes such crap sometimes. :-(
Anyone know?
Occurs whenever there is a constant source of water somewhere in the vacinity - a leak, a canal, a river etc.
wayne
Darn.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Chuck Greene
It's also real nice to put a face and emotions on our handles for other people to be introduced to.
1) Does Long Island Bus accept metrocard?
2) Is it a flat fare or a zoned fare and if it is zoned how does the metrocard figure it out? 3) Does City of Long Beach bus accept metrocard?
I know I should be posting this on Bus-Talk but you guys are the Metrocard experts.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry, RedbirdR33
Jimmy
Larry, RedbirdR33
No, BE surprised. Transfers are free with Metrocard.
Arti
Yes it does
2) Is it a flat fare or a zoned fare and if it is zoned how does the metrocard figure it out?
No zone when using Metrocard. With change though I think they still have the transfer surcharge of 25¢
3) Does City of Long Beach bus accept metrocard?
No
My question is:
Considering that Avenue H itself doesn't pass under the tracks, can one exit/enter the Avenue H station from the dead-end on either side of the Brighton Line?
Hopefully someone can help me with this in time.
Thanks much guys,
the lately lurking,
WMATA-riding come this fall,
West End Scott
Jimmy
WES
Jimmy
Yes, see below:
http://subway.com.ru/ave_h/pages/aveh019.htm
http://subway.com.ru/ave_h/pages/aveh020.htm
http://subway.com.ru/ave_h/pages/aveh022.htm
Like the configuration of Avenue H, if you used the south side (PATH side) of 34th st/Broadway/6th Ave, you will notice passageways for both inside and outside fare control areas seperated by bulletproof glass. Avenue H uses the traditional gates to seperate the two areas. Very interesting station to visit
But shorter than the typical walk from a parking spot to a mall on a weekend. ;-)
When my favorite hardware store, Pergament went belly-up, they could've made it to a nice supermarket, like a Foodtown. With Kings Highway being the busiest station on the Brighton line, south of Atlantic Avem you would think you would have a supermarket there.
BTW: Hop on a B82 and B7 bus for 1 mile and there's a 24 hour CVS drug store on Nostrand and KH.
I thought it was Church Avenue. It always seemed that way to me at least.
--Mark
But on weekends, I think Church Ave has more fare registrations than KH.
STADIUM-SEATING RULES!
Somebody should tell the operator that the 50 hasn't seen trolleys in some time!!!
After that the operator switched it to the route he was heading for, the 13 to City Hall. It was great watching all the abandoned routes and terminals flash by, the 23, the 60, the 56, all of them! I got one shot off that was ok, showing the transition between the 15 and the 23 short route:
http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~wld25/P1010044.JPG
http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?bustalk=78487
Picture is labeled as an R-38 interior, but the number of stanchions leads me to believe it is in fact an R-32 GE. R38s have only 6 poles, R-32s have 9, and R-32 GE have 10 last I counted. However, I have looked at the size of the windows and realized that it could still be an R-38, since R-38 side windows are larger than R-32, the only other difference between the 32 GE and R-38 interiors since that fundamental car difference would have been to difficult to modify.
So which is it?
Jimmy
Elias
--Mark
At New Haven I got quite a few pics of the power change operation (Railfan Pete) and at Meriden I saw an MoW crew making instant bond welds (see below).
The main slate of pics can be seen here at:
http://palter.org/~brotzman/06-13-03_BOSTON_ACELA_TRIP/
Also I have quite a few new tower pics and they can be viewed at:
http://palter.org/~brotzman/Towers/
Scan down for pics dated 07-08-03, those are the new ones.
Anyway, here are some teasers.
Amtrak MoW team welding track circut bonds.
View of Midtown from the Hellgate Bridge.
I lived in Astoria one time, so I have seen the bridge from the bottom (Astoria Park) plenty of times!
In 1983 when the Southwest corridor was rebuilt, they envisioned future electrifacation and therefore, along the entire new trench thinggie, they installed support for future catenary supports. In the image this manifests itself in that square of concrete that is sticking out of the top of the wall. The supports were designed to be anchored to it, the block being large enough to serve as an insulative baffle against vandals and whatnot. Well, notice where Seimens decided to place the cat support. This isn't an isolated case, all along the line they went out of their way to NOT use the pre-built and paid for catenary supports. You make the call.
This is kind of like the Seattle Bus Tunnel which will be used for unSound Transit's Central Link LRT system (now at 178 million per mile!). The tunnel, as built, had LRT tracks inlaid in the concrete floor, as well as some catenary supports in the tunnels. Now that the tunnel will be gutted for the introduction of Link LRT trains, the track will be torn out and completely rebuilt, and yet the track will come back just as it has always been. This raises the question of who is being ripped off here, was KC Metro ripped off by the contractor who built the tunnel originally, even though, IIRC, KC Metro requested the tracks? Or is Sound Transit being ripped off by the contractor currently building the Central Link through their refusal to use the exsisting tracks for their trains?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
On the upper level I just avoided all MNR employees by only taking photos when none were around. Because of that, I only got two photos.
You're definitely on a roll...keep enjoying what you do, and keep up the great work! : - )
It is said to be 180 metres long, with a speed of 11 km per hour and a capacity of 110,000 people per day. So far it has carried 4 million people.
The article may be found at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3001182.stm
Bule Line at Scoolay Under
AEM7
It's now Government Center.
See here and scroll down to Blue Line.
It was GREAT seeing you again! Hope to meet up again on the ole Sea Beach Line!
-Mark
I enjoyed the long week in New York just as much as you did, and particularly relished our trip on the Sea Beach line. Frankly, it looked better than I remembered it, partly because of the lush, greenery decorating the right-of-way, no doubt due to the rains earlier in the season.
I'm glad you had a great visit in NYC! If only you could of been in the Bronx on Monday with me to see Todd Walker messup the double play. :-)
-Nick
I presume the ride you are talking about took place last Thursday evening, with me on our way to Brooklyn. But the ride was so good, you won't admit it here what your #1 line is. (Get it? #1 line HAHAHAHAH!)
Hmmmm, let's see: True that neither your train, nor my train goes to Coney Island, but at least with my train, I have a choice of up to THREE buses I can use, one a TOTALLY FREE EXPRESS BEACH BUS at the south end of Sheepshead Bay on weekends, and two other regular bus routes, one also at Sheepshead Bay (B36), and the other at "Blighton Bitch" station as you call it (B68, extended to Stillwell/Surf).
OTOH, if I was dependent on your Slime Bitch line, I would have to take TWO buses from any open cut station on your line. I could take one bus to nearby Brighton Beach (B1 from 86th St terminal), but it's a good walk to CI and your Cyclone and who would want to do that in 90+ degree weather?
BTW: Me and my sister's beach bus routes (my sister is the Culver, LOL) both stop in front of your favorite ride, the Cyclone. Got anything to say about that, when there is no beach bus from your Sea Beach? Then why do they call it the Sea Beach anyway, when there is no beach bus?
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your N Sea Beach will not be able to return back to Coney until March 2005 at the earliest. Remember once three platforms are done in May, 2004, the new D West End line will have to come in on your Tracks 1 and 2 while the final platform for Tracks 7 and 8 are being demolished and rebuilt.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Curious...What plays did you see?
1.If there was a TRUE brake malfunction,the etire train would have overrun the platform.
2.If tere was a TRUE brake malfunction,the train would have and should have been taken out of service,which it was not.It continued WITH PASSENGERS to Woodside.
BTW the train was an M-3.
That doesn't frighten you? Your concern is for the engineer?
How many spouses and children do the passengers have -- or are they somehow less important?
Hopefully it's a case of the engineer forgetting that they had a scheduled stop at Forest Hills, rather than a case of simply not paying attention. As all railfans who've ridden the LIRR are aware, however, incidents of the engineer operating the train while paying more attention to the person standing in their doorway chatting are far too frequent.
I doubt the engineer is going to lose their job over one incident -- and if it has happened more than a few times, perhaps they should.
Peace,
ANDEE
Mark
Consistency. If you know that usually the first 4 stop at the platform and tou are in the first car and then one day it has the last 4 platform, you will have one heck of a run to those cars. Regular commuters know where they need to be....they know where the doors wil open on the platform and all that fun stuff.
SEPTA and Snidely Whiplash
My favorite line in the article is, "The train bearing down on SEPTA was one of the transit agency's own, so it was slow and late."
Mark
It happened at Grand Ave/Newtown, not Grand St.
Peace,
ANDEE
Then, I transfered to the (1) (by going outside and coming back in because I hate the within-the-system transfer). I just missed a SB (1), so then I had maybe a 9 minute wait for the next one. And that station was boiling hot!
All in all, an awful morning, but because I got to see and ride (but not photograph) an R-32GE, it wasn't a total loss.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Also, some (B) and (D) trains apparently ran along the (A) possibly being turned at Jay St. because when I got off at Chambers St, there was a light (D) train heading northbound through the station.
David
Here are the stations that you can transfer train to train with MetroCard.
Lexington/63 (F) --- Lexington/60 (N)(R)(W) / 59 St(4)(5)(6)
45 Road (7) --- 23-Ely (E)(V) / Court Sq (G)
Stillwell and Brighton Beach allow an intermediate transfer to the B68.
I don't know about 86th Street. It should be in the list, IMO, but my hunch is that it's not.
I don't think so. It's close to Avenue X on the F. Unfortunately, I don't think such a transfer would be allowed.
Here's an example.
On the N there is one MetroCard transfer at 59th St. and Lex to the F.
The 4 train makes local stops in Manhattan from 1:15 AM to 5:30 AM, and Canal St is a local stop. So you can transfer from the N to the 4 at 59th st, 14th St-Union Square, Borough Hall, or Atlantic Ave, those are full time stops on the 4. But you can't do this at Canal St, the 4 stops there for only 4 hours or on weekend G.O.'s. Those are the times when the N runs only in Brooklyn, Pacific St and stations south.
Did you forget that the N doesn't go north of Pacific on weekends and after around 11pm.
Subway transfers
59 St/Lex (4,5,6) & Lexington Av/63 St (F)
Court Sq (G) & 45 Rd/Courthouse Sq (7)
Before we begin today’s lesson, a correction from the last column. For whatever reason, I made reference to the AAR as the American Association of Railroads. It is actually the Association of American Railroads. I looked at it numerous times thinking there was something wrong about it, but the mistake was not registering. I guess that happens on occasion. Call it brain freeze. The beautiful bride calls it getting old, but with age comes wisdom (or so they tell me), so that cannot be the case.
There is a great deal of concentration involved in the job of railroading. There are numerous tasks and responsibilities of which to keep track, no pun intended. As the Engineer I really have a great deal to do, although when you see me rolling past I am not looking like a font of intense concentration. To this day, the beautiful bride still thinks all I do is sit there and look out the window. However there are often times when the fullest of concentration is not required. While you still have to keep track of everything, you are not doing it with any degree of great difficulty.
Whenever we are sitting at a signal waiting to proceed, or things are rolling along pretty good, you can relax a bit. The Conductor and Brakeman (should we happen to have one) and I may engage in some interesting conversation. We’ll talk about family, friends, life experiences, on the job experiences, cars, motorcycles, women; the topics are endless. Sometimes though, depending upon who you are working with, you can really have some fun.
Myself, I enjoy good comedy. I have recall of lots of jokes, gags, one-liners, anecdotes and the like. I also enjoy good wacky songs and comedy movies. Sometimes I’ll work with somebody who also enjoys such material and we can swap lines back and forth. I have been known to even incorporate some of them into the radio conversation. A prime example of that would be using a line from a Cheech & Chong character called Blind Mellon Chitlin. Those of you that have heard this know the line, but for those that don’t whenever asked anything he responds “Uh, yah.” Sometimes I will use this on the radio when responding to certain Conductors I work with.
There are some guys that are just a riot to work with. There will be a barrage of jokes, anecdotes, stories, and one-liners flying across the cab of the engine. We may perform imitations of fellow employees, former employees, supervisors and the like. We may also make up our own little games. With the lifestyle the industry provides us (or lack thereof on many occasions) the stress we are exposed to on a regular basis, the noise, heat, cold and sleep deprivation that are constants in our lives, we need something to do to vent and keep our minds and wits sharp. It also makes the day go by a little quicker and the job much more fun.
Way back in my MoPac days, I fired for this one Engineer that connected well with my warped and dimented sense of humor. We got along well enough that in a left handed way he fixed me up with one of his daughters. If I had a daughter, the first railroader that came near her would be dragged out into a corn field, beaten with a baseball bat then shot, but then that is just me. I suppose when the word got out about this treatment, no other railroader would dare tread in that first guys footsteps. Sorta reminds me of that old song “Wolverton Mountain” where Clifton Clowers intends to shoot anybody that goes near his daughter. But I digress.
This Engineer and I used to laugh and joke about some of the characters with whom we worked. As I have mentioned many times before there is a very diverse and colorful bunch that comprises the work force of the rail industry. With the nature of the beast that is railroading, it is probably more of a diverse culture than in many other industries. That diversity leads to many colorful and unusual characters. And it seems there is a cast of thousands of interesting folks supplanting the rail industry workforce.
We came up with different categories for the various guys we worked with. We took these categories and broke them down into crews. This would be a crew of four or five guys which was the standard crew size back in those days. We would nominate candidates to these categories and then discuss their qualifications to be a member of a specific crew.
Some of our categories included the unclean crew (for those that didn’t bathe on a regular occasion), the all incorrigible crew (for those that seemed to strive to find new ways to get into trouble on and off the job), the all worthless crew(those that seem to underachieve on a regular basis), the worst dressed crew (those who looked like they stole their clothes from the reject pile at the Salvation Army store), the heavyweight crew (those whose fondness of culinary pleasures tended to broaden their waste bands), the all maniacal crew (those who ran around like wild men or perhaps like chickens with their heads cut off), the whiners also known as the piss, bitch and moan society (for those whose main function at work seemed to be to perform any and/or all of the PB&M activities over just about anything they were instructed to do in their tour of duty) and of course the all frugal crew. Frugal is a very kind way of calling those in this category, cheap. This category needs no explanation.
These are some of the better ones that come to mind. There are a few others, but we will leave them out of this discussion as it is a family forum.
We would go over the qualifications and if an individual met up with our rigid standards they were then added to a crew. Now if it there happened to be a category that already had a full crew, we might have to create an afternoon or night trick job to accommodate them. Or we would just decide there would be a heavy assignment which required an extra locomotive and/or caboose to carry these guys. And there were a few that qualified for several categories, so they did double duty.
Being that we were both normal (hold your tongue), we never found any categories for ourselves. Now if others played this game, they more than likely had us in some kind of category. And I’m certain after I broke up with this guy’s daughter he probably created a new category just for me.
Then there is the “stir sh*t" game. This is where you concoct some sort of outlandish BS story and then practically swear it to be true. You have to pick your targets carefully for this one though. You want those that will believe what you are telling them without too much resistance on their part. The story is created, crafted and then reveled to this individual. This is frequently referred to as “stirring the sh*t.”
There was one guy we really started to stir it up with. We created a story that in the next contract, the Trainmen would not be getting back pay with their settlement. Both the Engineers and Trainmen had gone almost two years without a settlement to their respective contracts. So we decided to have some fun with one particular guy who was really aggravated about the entire affair. We kept telling him the back pay was gone and that the wage increases would be very small, if there were to be any at all.
In short order this guy was flying off the handle going into quite the rant. He was threatening to quit the railroad and go down to West Lafayette. He figured he would get a job at Purdue as a custodian. Everyday when we came to work one of us would just mention the back pay issue and he would immediately go into his ranting and raving. He had gone around and told just about anybody who would listen that we worked with about it all. Of course we were telling them the truth, that there was no talk at all about losing the back pay, after he left the room.
Finally after several weeks of this stirring the pot up, we came clean with him. He called us all sorts of names at first, but within a few minutes agreed that it was a pretty good one and how we had him going. He quickly got over it and things were back to normal again.
Over the years there have been other topics and people involved in stirring up the pot. Some folks are just prime targets.
In my Wisconsin Central days, I worked with a Conductor named Brian Kruger. Brian was (and remains to this day) an excellent railroader. We are still friends and talk periodically and as the strange ironies of life go, now work for the same railroad again, only in different locations. Brian was a riot to work with and we had lots of fun together while on the job.
In those early days of the WC, we had some forty ex Burlington Northern SD45’s as part of our motive power fleet. The lion’s share of them were still in the paint scheme of their former owner. >From a distant view or from the front, they still appeared to be BN units. This is what set the stage for this game.
We used to operate across the Belt Railway of Chicago, CSX and Conrail trackage in Chicago. Crews of the BN also used this very same trackage to reach the very same connections as us. It was not uncommon for us to meet and pass some of these BN trains in our journeys. Normally, when meeting or passing another train we generally acknowledge them with a wave or some sort of greeting. Should it be somebody you know, perhaps a comment or greeting on the radio will take place as well. It might just be a simple “Howdy boys” or maybe something more elaborate.
When we met or passed a BN crew, we would wave and greet them like we knew them and like they should know us. Oftentimes they too, would give us a greeting like they knew us. Once they got a close up look at us, they would look bewildered as they were trying to figure out who in the world we were. They hadn’t looked at the little “WC” initials stenciled over the blanked out BN logo under the cab windows.
This is where the fun began. One day without any advance planning, Brian and I just started having a discussion about the guys on that train like we knew them; and not just conversation, but the creation of characters and situations about them. Something to the extent of, “Hey wasn’t that Charlie Evers from the old south end pool?” Brian would respond something like, “Ya. Wasn’t he the one whose wife slept with everybody in the terminal when he wasn’t there?”
Or perhaps it might be something like “Hey look, there’s Eddie Clark. I see they finally let him out.” And then we would create some sort of goofy crime that this individual committed to get him sent up the river in the first place. Unbeknownst to them, many of these BN crews had been given some sort of past. It was fun and interesting to see just how creative we could get.
W made some guys out to be big drunks, womanizers, freaks, bums, weirdos, tightwads, criminals, nut jobs and the like. You know, just like real railroaders. We established a wide range of old assignments like freight runs and locals and long since abandoned or consolidated terminals. Sometimes if we didn't have a quick story for a crew we just refer to them as some of those "west end boys." And we had already established the fact that the gang from this pool was not a friendly bunch.
This really became a fun game as we tried to come up with more outlandish “tales of the dark side” as it were for people we didn’t even know. The more bizarre, wild or strange it was, the more fun we had. Makes me wonder why we were railroading instead of being the writers of some sort of cheap novels.
Some of other the fun and games include water tricks. Over the years, more than one railroader has been blasted with a stream of water. We get these little bottles of drinking water on the locomotives. This isn’t Dasani or Aquafina, but rather water out of some city water supply or what is pumped off from a coal mine somewhere. Judging how some of it tastes, I think it was pumped out of a landfil somewhere. On occasion when passing somebody you might have a bottle of water prepared for such and simply point and squeeze. A nice stream of water shoots out from the top and the unsuspecting soul gets a sudden and unplanned shower.
There is one guy I work with now that always closes the windows on his locomotive whenever he sees me coming. I always tell him he is paranoid. Gee, you blast a guy three or four times and they get all weird and strange on you.
Another water game involves loosening the top of a water bottle and then tossing it to somebody on the ground. They reach up to grab it, normally squeezing it as they catch it. The loosened top then pops off and they get their clothes washed. Of course in the summer when it is blazing hot this can really feel good.
Sometimes we get some fool who decides to play chicken with our train. When it comes to this game, I will always win. I do not perceive this game as funny or even slightly humorous. One mistake and you are injured or dead. But people do it just the same. When I get some idiot that decides to test my nerve, they often get a blast of water from me when I pass them after they have bailed from in between the gauge of the rail.
One bitterly cold (-20° F) night in Wisconsin, some smart assed adolescent learned the spoils of playing chicken. We used to operate on the streets of Oshkosh (literally) and crossed people’s driveways and front or side yards as well. We were restricted to 10 MPH for the street and yard operation. Knowing that we weren’t going very fast, motorists and cyclists as well as pedestrians frequently darted right across in front of us. Some people would play chicken with us, normally getting out of the way well in advance though. Others didn’t and waited until the last second and then cleared out.
On this particular night, there was a group of kids congregated along the tracks. As we approached them they decided to test my nerve. We were poking along at our 10 MPH pace and they just stood there in the gauge of the rail. One by one they started to move out of the way as I closed in on them. I gave them several blasts of the whistle and a few more cleared. One though, stood his ground and decided he was going to show us. I told Brian to give me a bunch of water bottles quickly. He did so opening them up as he handed them to me. I slid my side windows open and made ready the water bottles.
At the last second this kid stepped aside moving (as luck would have it) over to my side as he did so. As I passed him he gave me that familiar “number 1” signal and smiled. I then proceeded to pour six bottles of water onto him. I drenched him pretty thoroughly too. At -20° I’m pretty certain he wasn’t feeling refreshed from his impromptu shower. I’ll also bet he never played chicken with a train again either.
Moving back to my days at the Chicago Central, this one involves water but in a frozen form. One afternoon when I was working the Markham Transfer run, we got stopped at Clark Street, the crossing between the Illinois Central Gulf’s Chicago District and Metra’s Rock Island District. It was getting to be evening rush, so we wouldn’t be going anywhere for at least an hour and a half. It was also snowing like crazy and the weather was fast becoming a factor in railroad operations.
There is a printing house located on the south side of the right of way just east of the crossing. It was either the Conductor or Brakeman that noticed two guys in the parking lot next to the printing house having a snowball fight. We decided to join in on their fun, although we did not ask to be invited, and we did it in a really sinister sort of way. First we got off the engine and proceeded to make a bunch of snowballs. Then we began to bombard both of these guys from our perch up above. Were they surprised!
These two guys rethought their battle, teamed up and decided to engage us in a battle of frozen water balls. We played this game until they realized they were outnumbered, outgunned and out supplied. They called for a truce after about fifteen minutes and we let them head on home.
Our next topic is bombs. As I mentioned in the column about flagging rules, torpedoes were a regular part of the supplies included on a locomotive. One evening the crew of a train we were meeting at a siding placed several of them on the rail. We hit them, not expecting the booms and were quite surprised. We immediately took this as a call to arms.
“Anything you can do I can do better.”
And so the battle began.
If we were the first train at the meeting point, we would set up the trap. Instead of placing the torpedoes right at the meeting point, we walked ahead of the meeting point placing a bunch of them about a quarter mile before the signal. This crew countered by placing about twenty of them really close together the next time we met. Hmm, very good but we must counter with a bigger and better measure. We would do one thing and they would do something else to counter the next time. Then we decided to really do something really big. It took careful consideration and planning.
For well over a week, we did nothing. The crew we were waging battle with probably thought the war was over and they had won. But they were wrong. There is something to be said about that element of surprise. One evening we were headed into the siding at Vernon, WI for a meet. We had ascertained they were quite a distance away so we had time to really set this one up.
As I headed into the east end and ready to roll into the siding, I stopped the train. We took every torpedo we could find on all three units and placed them all on the rails at the east end on the main track for about a quarter of a mile. We staggered them on each rail so that they would go off alternately. Then we pulled into the siding and down to the west end and waited for the meet. They arrived; we rolled them by, exchanged pleasantries and waited. A couple of seconds later they were complementing us over the radio on our skills in setting up this little surprise. It was bigger and better than they had planned as they were somewhat shocked as bombs were still going off while talking to us on the radio.
A couple of days later though this battle was brought to an unplanned and abrupt end by a company official. This guy asked us about the sudden surge in torpedo use. It seems somebody from the roundhouse noticed they were suddenly having to completely refill the all the torpedo containers on inbound power coming from Chicago. So we decided rather than taunt those that can discipline us, we would immediately cease and desist. Of course we never did fess up to anything though, we just played possum.
We’ll go back to the radio now. There used to be an Operator at the MoPac that made far too frequent use of the word “uh.” It was just about every other word out of his mouth whenever he was speaking to anyone be it on the radio or face to face. We used to play games and count the number of times he said “uh” on the radio in a single transmission. One time he actually said it thirty-seven times. This could easily make one want to go postal.
Well instead of losing it, one afternoon I decided to have some fun instead. This Operator had to issue us a track permit to operate against the current of traffic out to Chicago Heights. We had to copy the instructions and repeat them back. It went something like this;
“OK, uh, MP 1579 you have a uh, track permit to operate against the uh, current of traffic uh, on the uh, northbound main between, uh Thornton Junction and uh, 12th Street from uh, 1247 until uh, 215pm uh, over.”
I repeated back these instructions;
“Uh, MoPac 1579 has a uh, track permit to operate against the uh, current of traffic uh, on the uh, northbound main between uh, Thornton Junction and uh, 12th Street from uh, 1247 until uh, 215 pm uh, over.”
My crew was in hysterics as they could not believe I would and did do something like this. Several others picked up on my prank and pulled the same stunt off as well. I don’t believe this Operator ever caught on though.
Another Operator was sort of a cantankerous old sort who was always crabby about something. That job alone could do it as it was a very busy office in which to work. This guy would about bite your head off on the radio sometimes. One evening, after trying to call him repeated times he just yelled back into the radio “I’M BUSY!” With that I just got up really close the mike on the radio, depressed the “press to talk” button and yelled “AAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!!” at the top of my lungs. Yell at me will you?
He could really make things miserable for you when he got mad. That is, until I figured out how to use his anger to my advantage. I might call him for a signal and say something like “B Yard to Two Yard as soon as possible John.” With his West Virginia drawl he would yell back something like “I’LL GIVE IT TO YOU WHEN I’M GOOD AND READY!” Of course, we were usually on overtime by this point. And with his angry demeanor, it usually meant you would sit there for fifteen or twenty minutes or more while the big money meter was running.
The last one is one of my personal favorites. I was working some afternoon assignment at Yard Center in 1982. I was hanging around the Crew Caller’s office during our coffee break as the Caller on duty happened to be a girl I was dating at the time. She had gone off to take care of something when one of the phones began to ring. It rang about eight million times without stopping. I finally got sick of listening to this annoying ringing so I decided to take action. I simply picked up the phone briefly, and then hung it right back up. About two seconds later it began to ring again, so I repeated the process. And then it rang a third time and yet again, I did the quick hang up thing. Finally, the party at the other end gave up. Good, that’ll shut ‘em up.
Just a couple of minutes after that, the car of Assistant Superintendent Al Welch comes barreling up to the front door of the building, which was right next to the Caller’s office. I quickly got up from the chair in the Caller’s office and stood by the door leading in to it. Mr. Welch comes storming in and sees me standing there. He yells out “Where’s the caller?” I told him I had no idea. He then asked how long I had been there. I told him I had just walked in right ahead of him as I had just come up from downstairs after getting a cup of coffee.
He then asked if I had seen anybody in here when I got in there and I told him something to the effect of seeing some road guy here but he had left right after I walked in. I was then told about some “wiseass” who kept hanging up on him when he was trying to contact the Caller. I was not about to give my wise young ass up to him as it most likely would have involved a “fair and impartial” investigation resulting in some sort of disciplinary action to be imposed upon me. We couldn’t have that now, so I simply told him that it was stupid on the part of whomever that individual was to do such a thing. What I was thinking though was that it would be stupid on the part of the wiseass that pulled this stunt to give them self up. He agreed with what I said and then waited for the Caller to return to tell her whatever it was he needed her to know in person. I quickly exited the office after our conversation for fear I might break out into laughter and indeed give myself away.
I never did tell the Caller what I did either. It was probably a good thing as she likely would have given me up when I broke up with her sometime later. You know what they say about scorned women.
Uh, And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the uh, High Iron, © 2003 by uh, JD Santucci
We will be at IRM on Sunday.
Was that the car you saw?
You now have it dated as "probably from 1936 to 1940". Even though the line was demolished 16 years before I was born, I strongly feel the pic is post 1940. Notice the "severed" southbound local track, forcing all trains over to the "middle" track. It looks as if a realignment was made when Rockaway Ave was made the new "terminal" for the Fulton St. el. Maybe I'm wrong, or am missing something which was done here prior to the truncation of service. Perhaps a real OLD timer can clear things up.
My guess is 1956, April of that year to be exact.
The Rockaway Ave terminal of the Fulton St. elevated was closed after the IND subway to East New York was extended over the old BMT Fulton St. elevated to Lefferts Ave., later Blvd. With the opening of the IND subway extension, the old "el" became redundant and was closed.
That picture looks like it was taken from the Canarsie bound platform at Broadway Junction of the 14th St. Canarsie line. It's kinda high up as we all can see today. Also this was the finale of the "C" Types.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's true. I say April 1956 because when a particular line will close or fleet of rolling stock is retired, railfans come out of the woodwork and photograph them big time. Closure of the Third and Myrtle Ave "els" and retirement of pre-war equipment are the best examples. Check the dates and you'll see what I mean.
Bill "Newkirk"
In any case, based on the automobiles on the street, it is no earlier than 1954, and it is probable that one of the cars is a 1956 model. Also note the stop sign which is a light colored word on a dark background, probably white on red. The change to white on red from black on yellow took place in the mid ‘50s.
Tom
There were three tracks between Rockaway Avenue and Atlantic, but I don't know what of those were used or operable near the end.
Has anyone found out where the pic at the beginning of this thread was?
New York is the most important, the most valuable, the most significant, etc. But it isn't the nicest, and given how heavily it's used and how often it's misused it probably can't be.
That said, this capital plan seems to be all about amenity -- rebuilding many of the major stations, new public address and ATS systems, etc. So the NYC subway will be a lot nicer in a decade.
And the funny thing is, looking at it hardheadedly I'd rather spend the money on capacity (ie. Second Avenue), speed and reliability than on amenity. But that didn't affect my answer to the question. Perhaps amenity is important after all.
It took me awhile to appreciate that my own home system (SEPTA) really does offer great railfanning since I have to put up with it's many shortcomings when I have to use it for utiliitarian travel rather than joyriding.
Mark
Mark
Mark
Mark
-Robert King
Mark
It's a closed system with a limited number of topics -- until some new issue (plans released, labor negotiation, MTA reorganization) rears its head.
But for cleanliness and modern appearance, it's Washington Metro, and SF BART.
The DC Metro is my second favorite and the third has to be the Chicago Transit.
Even without the express trains the sheer density and extensiveness on New York's subways put it in another league entirely compared to other U.S. systems. It's peers aren't other subways in this country but systems like the London Underground. In North America only Mexico City is in the same league. As for the United States, DC and Chicago come closest. They're much smaller systems, but appropriate for the size of their respective metro areas.
Mark
The CTA & Metra do a fine job of serving Chicago. The only area is the far South-Side after 95th St. that could really use L service. That's why 95th/Dan Ryan is the #1 station for ridership, many people transfer to buses there to continue further south. Metra does extensively serve the south-side, but with less frequent service and higher fares, many people choose the longer and cheaper combo bus & L ride.
I love NYC and it is my favorite transit system with my home city Chicago coming in a close second. But the impression I get from NYC & especially Manhattan is that the traffic is horrendous 7 days a week. Also that even if you sit in the traffic, it apperared to me that there was hardly anywhere to park in Manhattan. Because of this NYC has to have an excellent transit system.
Whereas Chicago's traffic is also often horrendous, but if you choose to sit through it and have around $400.00 a month you will have no problem getting a parking spot anywhere you choose downtown.
On the other hand, I just got back from California and spent a few days in LA. I thank god I don't live there!! The traffic is always horrendous like NYC, but there is hardly any public transit. The red line is great, but very small. Metro-link also exists, but has limited service and would make an ex-Metra or LIRR rider depressed. Parking is everywhere, but so is the wonderful traffic.
(from mta.info)
Annual Subway Ridership
1. Moscow 3.2 billion
2. Tokyo 2.7 billion
3. Seoul 1.6 billion
4. Mexico City 1.3 billion
5. New York City 1.3 billion
6. Paris 1.2 billion
7. Osaka 957 million
8. London 886 million
9. Hong Kong 798 million
10. St. Petersburg 784 million
I didn't know there was a difference.
I didn't know there was a difference.
I'm guessing that's because the numbers have been rounded off.
Mark
www.bvg.de
1. NYC subway: Between the 4 track express system and the nice fleet NYC rules
2. WMATA: The cleanlieness and the high speed routes. Plus the Red line is the icing on the cake.
3. LA: I especially like their bus system. But the Red and soon to be Gold line are cool.
1) WMATA
2) NYMTA Family of transit systems
3) SEPTA
4) NJ Transit
Honorable Mention: MARTA, CTA, and Montreal.
Going worldwide, Germany's Karlsruhe is probably one pf the most advanced, if not the most advanced, city transit system in the world. They were the pioneers in using normal trolleys on the national railroad network (and for demonstration purposes, those same trolleys have operated via the railroad right into France and Switzerland). They began this type of operation about 15 years ago with just a single line, and now have about ten. The entire Karlsruhe network is conventional but very coordinated; many bus routes buses are used as feeders to the trolley network, and buses are not permitted in many parts of the downtown area - you must use the trolleys. And this trolley/railroad system has never had an accident - even with trolleys, local and express commuter trains (both diesel and electric), the high speed ICE trains and freight trains all sharing the same tracks. It is the most intruiging thing to stand at one railroad location for about an hour and never know the next type of rail vehicle to come. Of course, in this country, the FRA (Federal Railway Administration) says this type of network is really not possible. If they would get off their rear ends in their Washington DC offices and take a trip to Karlsruhe, they'd be quite embarassed. They have a great web site and additional links that explain the whole type, just type in "Karlsruhe" in your search engine.
Mexico City's subway system is unique but also crippled by the French rubber tire design which they adopted for most lines. The cars are small and hot, but they do run very efficiently at extremely close intervals at all times of the day and well into the night. This system has a very unique distinction that it shares with New York: the Empire State Building was built in just about 13 months; the first Mexico City route opened in about 18. Much like the first IRT subway, they employed about 10,000 daily workers to construct the first lines.
I note that most SubTalkers have chosen North American systems, particularly those in the northeastern United States, as their favorites. My suggestion is to take a trip to a foreign city, particularly those in Europe. Your favorites will probably then change, especially when you notice the cleanliness and efficiency of most other international systems.
Wouldn't I love to! Annoyng things like a busy schedule and cost of travel keep me stateside. I consider myself very fortunate that I've been able to visit as many places in North America as I have, thanks to frequent business trips. So far my employer hasn't seen fit to send me overseas. : (
It'd be a real treat to ride some European systems, and I also have a fascination with systems in Latin America. I'm dying to ride in Mexico City, Buenos Aires, and Caracas...don't know why those three stand out in my mind. Plus there's about ten or so subway systems operating in Brazil alone. That would make for one whopper of a single-country railfan tour.
Mark
But, I also have great affection for the small Glasgow, Scotland subway. There is only one line that runs in a circle surrounding central Glasgow. I would regularly take the subway in Glasgow from the Queen Street Scotrail station to Partick and Ibrox when I lived in Edinburgh. It's a great system for its size: clean, efficient, frequent service, and speedy.
http://www.nycsubway.org/eu/uk/glasgow.html
Mark
Are there any of those Mexicans left in the workforce? And if so, can we bring them here next year to work on Second Avenue?
Are there any of those Mexicans left in the workforce? And if so, can we bring them here next year to work on Second Avenue?
Har-dee-har-har. If work ever starts on the SAS, the MTA will have to hire union workers who'll get paid 10X what the Mexicans would get and on a per-man basis will do one-third of the work that the Mexicans would do.
Man, you are amazing. Prove that outrageous statement. Are you one of those quasi-slave-hirin' little "sub-contractors" who slither up to those guys waiting on various street corners in order to "hire" a few of `em to do work for you? At a wage that is well below what is necessary for a life beyond a grasping day-by-day existence? Sure sounds like it. My fellow citizens who go around making observations such as the one you expressed above seem to think that a bare-bones penny-pinching outlook is the ONLY way to consider a way of life. Trust me, that is a sure path to ruin.
Way I feel about it...you want the work done, pay the real wages. Just because the opportunity to get manual labor help at minimal wages is there DOES NOT mean it's the best way. And yeah, that also means maybe consider employing an American (of whatever ancestry) for the work. Most of those guys sniveling about how "...but American guys wont do the work!" are full of it. They just want to pocket as much money for THEMSELVES as they can. And are not willing to be honest and fair about the transaction. IMO, little conniving weasels. If it was up to me I'd be standing there and start throwing eggs at the bastards when they drive up to do their "hiring".
Really, you are WAY off base with that crack. It's offensive and ignorant. You better think Very Clearly about what you stated. It's that kind of attitude that'll do this country in. Then where you gonna go? Canada? Austrailia? China?
1. London Underground- The vibe of this system can't be beat. You are surrounded by the oldest subway lines in the world, and then in a quick ride you are in some of the most modern, beautiful stations out there. I love navigating through the maze the walkways that connect lines. I love the abandoned platforms of the sub-surface that are in clear sight. Walking around, you see closed of walkways and wonder where they lead, and the pitch black tunnels of the tube make you wonder what's down there.
2. São Paulo Metrô- This is one of the most technologically advanced subways in the world. Everything is computer controlled, right down the the door operation. I'm amazed by the sheer volume of people that use it, over 700 million/year, and the system is less than 40 route miles long. It handles the crowds without breaking a sweat. Headways are less than 100 seconds during rush hour, and are at around 100 seconds the rest of the day. Smart planning by the designers is what made the major transfer stations with a center exit platform and two entry side platforms, so that there is absolutely no conflict with passengers entering and exiting. The system is currently in a major expansion, and I can't wait until 2010 to ride everything.
3. Atlanta MARTA- This is my home subway, and I grew up with it, so I have a special bond with it. No two stations are alike; every station is unique with different designs and artwork. For such a small system, it's really fun to railfan, I've ridden whole system at least 10 times over.
4. New York NYCT- It's dank, dirty, loud, ugly and slow, and I love that. It's fun riding an ancient train while bouncing all over the place. I love the massiveness of the system. You can spend a lifetime studying the subway and STILL not know everything about it.
5. Montreal STCUM- Beautiful stations, I love how the system is well integrated with the rest of the city. You can ride the train and get off, walk several blocks, and still be underground. All the shops and businesses near the fare control makes it hard to tell where the businesses end and the station begins.
6. DC WMATA- While it has repetitive stations and no variety, they picked a damn good design to repeat. The cavernous stations kick ass. It's also the largest modern subway in the US, I wish other cities could be as extensive as the Metro.
7. Toronto TTC- Not quite integrated with the city like Montreal, but pretty close. I like the classical music played in the stations. The cars are attractive.
8, San Fran BART- The first modern subway in the US and it's amusing to see some of the high-tech features that never made it into later subways because they were overkill. It's also one of the few subways where you can pass through cars. The Market St segment along with MUNI and the surface buses is a railfan gold mine.
9. Chicago CTA- The trains on the L go up to 40 mph on the elevated parts, what fun, NYC is missing out. The long-ass downtown subway station are fun the traverse.
10. Boston MBTA- This was the first subway system I rode that wasn't MARTA. Each line is unique and i like the Green Line underground.
Top light rail systems I've ridden with no explanations:
1. MUNI
2. Docklands
3. Boston Green Line
4. St Louis
5. Seattle Monorail
Despite going there three times, surprisingly I have not ridden Toronto's streetcars.
Top 6 subways that I want to ride one day:
1. Moscow
2. St Petersburg
3. Philly SEPTA
4. Mexico City
5. Tokyo
6. Hong Kong
Subways that I will ride on my trip to Europe in August (my subway list will no doubt be shaken up at the end of next month):
1. Amsterdam
2. Paris
3, Maybe Frankfurt of I go there
Mark
Mark
http://www.freewaymonorail.org/
Here's the photo gallery: Galería de Imágenes
...and the line histories: Breve Reseña Histórica
Mark
Mark
1211-15 and 6931-35 are testing for #4 service at the present time.
This leaves only 6946-50 left from the original order!
-Stef
It's very useful for those who have text messaging enabled on their cell phones, now if you see an incident in progress on your subway line, you can whip out your phone and send a text, WAP or voice message from you phone to my group and everyone can read it off their phone or computer. Then when they read off the message on the compuer, IMMEDIATE postings to this board can also be done.
Here's how it works. Rememeber, my group is in baby stages, so some kinks may need to be ironed out first.
1. Go to Upoc web site and register your handle. If you have a cell phone, attach you phone number to your handle.
2. Once you register your handle and mobile phone to Upoc, you will have to join my group. Locate NYC Subway Stories under Your City/Region --> NYC ---> NYC Subway Stories link
NOTE: Certain carriers use an access code to send messages to this group, follow instructions on the Upoc site.
Now you can broadcast a message or send a voice message to 973-242-1550.
And please don't worry about my OTHER handle, I like that handle and I will keep it that way.
Any more info I know, you will get it on that group.
Have more fun everyone. Look forward to see you there.
Which OTHER handle?
It's 1 handle per brah on SubTALK!! :o
I have only one handle here is Subtalk. I used a different handle name in Upoc because I like that and it's listed at the group's founder when you join that group.
I just discovered that this trip will actually be a REAL farewell trip because the segment of the Bergen County Line between WEST END interlocking and the Harmon Cove station will be abandonned by NJT effective Aug 4th due to some bright idea from the Secaucas Connection planners.
I will post further reminders as the time approaches. I will probably drive up to Hamelton and catch an NJT train from there.
Robert
Robert
Mid-day trains were cancelled and replaced with two buses (two buses are sufficient to cover off-peak service). Night and weekend schedules remained in place. All work was done during normal business hours.
That'll probably be the game plan this time too.
Jimmy
Jimmy
So NJ Transit (with a little help from the Allied Junction Corporation) decides to pull up the Bergen County Line tracks in order to use the right of way for an access road to an office complex. If this wasn't also a corporate welfare project, they could easily have constructed platforms along both the Main and Bergen County lines and had them both connect to the transfer station. Instead, we have an expensive new connector to divert Bergen County line trains off their natural right-of-way. What happens?
- Harmon Cove station disappears, and passengers are diverted to a shuttle bus.
- The shortest, fastest route to Hoboken gets ripped up, and Bergen County line trains have some beautiful new curves to negotiate. This includes the Metro-North expresses, which will soon gain a station stop. I really hope the new transfer station works as promised, and does shave 15 minutes off the commute to midtown, because it'll be making the downtown commute longer before it even opens.
I could whine about how slow the Main Line trains are when they run through Secaucus, but I figure there's probably a speed restriction during construction. Let's hope things right themselves.
And that's my mini-rant.
Since it's a saturday you could take a Waterfront Connection (RVL)train between Newark and Hoboken, the fare is exactly the same Hamilton-HOB as Hamilton-NWK. 11:17AM at Newark...
It isn't in the brochures. We know it because trains from Hoboken to EXPL can't go back to Hoboken (due to the track layout) and have to go to Newark. Trains from NWK can go back to Newark, but then there would be too many trains on the NWK line and not enough on the Hoboken line. Hence the round-robin. (though I've never seen a square-robin) This would be 100x better if you could stay on the train at NWK and not have to pay another fare :( :( :(
If you followed the published map, switched over at Grove for a 33rd street train, then gotten off at Pavonia to wait for a Hoboken train, you'd probably end up getting back on the first train.
2) Used the JFK-Express the middle-track on the Liberty Av?
2) On occasion, yes. But only between Rockaway Blvd. and 88th St.
2. No.
BMT service prior to '56?? The LIRR went to Aqueduct before the IND prior to '56.
During the 30's service would look something like this.
AM Rush Expresses leaving Lefferts ran express from Atlantic Avenue to Franklin Avenue. Locals from Lefferts Avenue or Grant Avenue ran to Fulton Ferry or Sands Street.
In the PM rush express ran from Park Row to Lefferts Avenue running express of the local track from Sands Street to Franklin Avenue and then express on the express track from Franklin Avenue to Atlantic Avenue.
Trains leaving from Sands Street ran express only from Franklin Avenue to Atlantic Avenue.
Locals ran from Fulton Ferry or Park Row ran to Grant Avenue to Lefferts Avenue.
The #13 14 Street-Fulton Street Express began running on September 23, 1936 and ran express on the 14 Street Line between Lorimer Street and Myrtle Avenue. At first these trains ran express on the Fulton Street Line between Hudson Street and Hinsdale Streeton the local tracks but started making locals stops between these two stations as soon as the platforms were lengthened. This is the only time that regular express service ran on the Fulton Street Line east of Atlantic Avenue.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Bear in mind that the center track is a yard lead for Pitkin Yard by the portal area. Any "expresses" would have to switch over to the local track before leaving the "el" and descending to the portal.
Bill "Newkirk"
2. Nope since the middle track at 80 St leads to Pitkin yard
2) JFK expresses always took the local track from Grant to Howard Beach..
The R44/46 were purchased around the same time WMATA purchased their first set of cars ever, the Rohr 10-11-1200 series. Yet, the Rohr cars seem like they are in FAR better shape than the 44/46. Is it solely because the cars are being operated in the rougher environment of the NYCTA, or could it be that the Rohr cars were just built more sturdier than the 44/46?
I've also noticed that up until the 142, the driver's cab on R-types seems so primitive compared to WMATA's metrorail cars. Even the R68's, which came out in the 80's, have that primitive-looking accelerator handle and sparsely equipped cab. Any ideas why?
I don't know what the MTAs reason was, but I agree with the philosophy "simpler is better". It was simple, it worked, why go high tech?
The R46's are in good shape. The R44's, by contrast, are in deteriorating condtion, thanks to the fact that the St. Louis Crap Co. used Carbon Steel on the Belt rail, while the R46 have stainless steel bodies, except for their fronts. The R44's also have some other mechanical flaws. I believe it was stated that they have fewer compressors than any other car series out there. I forgot exactly what this does, but I think it makes their maintenance more costly, since it's not standard with the rest of the fleet.
I've also noticed that up until the 142, the driver's cab on R-types seems so primitive compared to WMATA's metrorail cars. Even the R68's, which came out in the 80's, have that primitive-looking accelerator handle and sparsely equipped cab. Any ideas why?
Consider NYCT's last attempt at technology. The R44/46. The cars were huge flops. The R44 especially, since it was so muc of this 'new technology' that caused their failure. The R62/68 were basically updates of old cars. The r110 contract was their next attempt at modernization of the fleet.
Both of them structurally is in good shape although they are going on 30 years of service [imagine if the GOH/General Overhaul didn't exist particularly on the R44] and are wearing down but not much. The R44 was a troublesome car FROM DAY ONE! To this day the R44 is somewhat of a failure but improved DRAMATICALLY since its overhaul in 1991-1992 & it was a revolutionary for the TA in 1972 bringing 75 foot cars to the system.
I've also noticed that up until the 142, the driver's cab on R-types seems so primitive compared to WMATA's metrorail cars. Even the R68's, which came out in the 80's, have that primitive-looking accelerator handle and sparsely equipped cab. Any ideas why?
I don't know what the MTAs reason was, but I agree with the philosophy "simpler is better". It was simple, it worked, why go high tech?
Well there's your explanation basically. Also from what Jtrainloco said, the R44/R46 did have futuristic technology in its time but ultimately did NOT work out & he talks about the other cars as well made after the R44.
The R44/46 were purchased around the same time WMATA purchased their first set of cars ever, the Rohr 10-11-1200 series. Yet, the Rohr cars seem like they are in FAR better shape than the 44/46. Is it solely because the cars are being operated in the rougher environment of the NYCTA, or could it be that the Rohr cars were just built more sturdier than the 44/46?
I've also noticed that up until the 142, the driver's cab on R-types seems so primitive compared to WMATA's metrorail cars. Even the R68's, which came out in the 80's, have that primitive-looking accelerator handle and sparsely equipped cab. Any ideas why?
I hate to tell you but you are comparing apples to oranges here. There are very few things that the 1000 series Rohr car have in common with the NYCTA R44 and R46. Structurally the WMATA cars are very different then the NYCTA cars. The WMATA cars are something like 10,000 lbs 4535 kg lighter then the NYCTA cars of the same 75’ 22.86 m length. The aluminum bodies of the WMATA cars contribute to the structure integrity of the car. The stainless steel bodies on the NYCTA cars do not contribute to the structure of the car. The only thing the Rohr cars had in common with the R44 and R46 when they were delivered was the cam control
propulsion hardware.
I will admit that the environment that the NYCTA car were operated in was rougher then the environment WMATA has. It is also my opinion that if you were to run set of WMATA cars on the NYCTA they would require inspection on a schedule that is more rigorous then what they see down here in Washington to keep them running.
One important thing WMATA has done from day one is to maintained the part of the cars that the riders see very vigorously. A car that has a slashed seat or graffiti is pulled from service and not returned until corrected. The interiors have been replaced at least once in the last 15 years. Most of the Rohr cars have had their propulsion hardware upgraded to AC traction.
The common throttle brake control has a lot to do with the fact that the Rohr cars have a dynamic braking system and electro pneumatically controlled hydraulic disk brakes. All the extra stuff you see in WMATA car cab is related to the train control hardware that is used to run the trains.
Next time you are in a twin platform station, look at the lift points under the bottom edge of the car bodies on the Rohr cars. The lift points are under the door leaf that closest to the end of the car. Some of them have some pretty nasty dents.
John
As far as I know just the car marked with AC have AC traction propulsion. Now I could be wrong on this. I have never read anywhere that the entire fleet of Rohr cars were upgraded with AC traction propulsion. As for your 1028 assumption, I would agree.
John
I agree with most of the things John said here. You can make a crap car look good just by maintaining the parts that the pax see and painting it every now and again. Sometimes if you see rust it really doesn't matter because if the rust isn't in a place that is structurally important than rust is only a little more than a cosmetic nusiance. If you look at the MBTA orange line cars you will conclude they are in a worse condition than the MBTA red line 01500 fleet. If you look at the MDBF figures you would see that the orange line cars, which are newer, but more rusted out, are clearer superior mechanically.
Many parts in a railcar is replacable, so it is hard to tell from just looking at the railcar what kind of mechanical condition it is in. The MBTA orange line fleet is in the middle of an overhaul program and the revamped cars function a lot better mechanically speaking. I personally think rebuilding is actually very economical compared to buying new cars. Unfortunately the public likes to see new cars.
Another thing that may signal bad maintenance to the untrained eye -- the wheel flat -- in fact those can be corrected, the wheels need trued or the tread needs replaced. Doors that don't open might suggest bad light maintenance, but all you need to do is to replace or rebuild the door motor and that kind of problems will disappear. Really railcars are pretty difficult to break. The sort of thing that will condemn railcars are: rust in critical areas, frame cracks (from metal fatigue), and out-dated technology (which can usually be retro-engineered, but sometimes it is cheaper to build anew than to retro-engineer).
The stainless steel bodies on the NYCTA cars do not contribute to the structure of the car.
I am surprised by this, I would have thought most of the recent cars are monocoque bodies to prevent tele-scoping. So the R46's are still a box on top of a rigid frame?
AEM7
As far as I know yes. As far a telescoping goes, the anticlimbers on the ends of the cars are suppose to aide in preventing this but sometimes it doesn’t work. The WMATA wreck at Shady Grove (A15) the night of 01 06 96 the train parked on the Shady Grove Yard (A99) lead north of the station telescoped in to the first car of the train that over shot the station platform. Look at the photo on page 17 of the NTSB Report of the wreck.
John
It can be, though not always. You make some good points here. If the public wants to see a "new car," one can send it to the shop for scraping, polishing, painting etc, after the mechanical items have been taken care of, renewed etc.
WMATA has paid closer attention to aesthetics, and theWMATA fleet doesn't take nearly the pounding the MTA fleet takes (though, with time, MTA tracks are getting better too).
If all the platforms were 12 cars and the trains all 8 cars some people would still screw up their stops.
As they catch 1 of 100 that do it they crucify that one crew and it becomes a sort of joke.
J van Dorp
Engineer MNCR
Sure a overrun happens from time to time but when it DOES happen, the engineer's job security dramatically decreases in an instant. In NYCT when that happens for example, the T/O could get a serious punishment or even get fired! Sure the engineer is not a robot and he's human but they're just saying that it is dangerous.
Then I see this dope on this show run around in the NYC subway system. One minute he's reading something on the bench seat of an R62, and then he walks out of the car, but the car he walks out of what looks like an R40M!
Then he runs up the stairs of a subway station and I can see the side sign that is posted on each MTA subway station, the one that says "Subway" and had the MTA logo on the lower right corner, but the railing of the station entrance blocked the name of the station.
Eurostar has a special round trip 2nd Class fare of $90.00, and the air fare to Amsterdam is $113.00 higher than the air fare to London, so that is pretty much a wash, but car rental rates in Brussels are approximately $100.00 higher for three weeks than the rates for one month in Amsterdam.
Is the Eurostar ride worth the extra hassle and expense of traveling via London? If I do take the London route I will probably spend a few days there (without a car), but not go to Amsterdam at all (and I like to ride the Amsterdam trams and visit their interesting cafes).
Tom
Robert
Well of course not. On your honeymoon, no train ride should be a big deal. :-)
Thanks to you and all the others who responded to my query. I have decided on the simpler plan of going through Amsterdam. Call me old fashioned, but I liked catching the evening train from London to the Channel, taking the night ferry across and boarding another train in France. And I'll bet there are no outside doors to the individual compartments on the Eurostar anyway. :-)
Tom
PS: Look at "http://www.hse.gov.uk/railways/spads.htm"
At liitle bit about safety in England
But you don't really see much from inside the train. Whizzing along at 150 mph is nice, but the countryside isn't particularly interesting.
In a way the most interesting part was winding through the area south of London at low speeds. Lots of merging rail lines.
I'm going to Amsterdam on 1 August. I plan on "drinking" a lot of "coffee" at the cafés. :-)
I've heard that Amsterdam also has a district where ladies of the evening sit in shop windows displaying their charms to passerby.
Closed curtains on the windows indicate that there is a customer!
Amsterdam is a very tolerant city. Don’t be surprised if you smell smoke that didn’t come from ordinary tobacco in the cafes!…and that’s the only downside: as of the early 1990’s when I was last there, the Dutch smoked like chimneys (and high-tar cigarettes too!) and there were relatively few non-smoking areas.
John
I'd be more worried about what you get from these women that you can't see.
Alas, the last time I was in Amsterdam my wife would not allow me to do any window shopping. :-)
Tom
Do they still have the green doors across the ends of the street? It's been quite a while since I was on the Reeperbahn in St. Pauli, but that was a time before container ships when a ship would be in port for several days unloading and loading, and their crews would have liberty and plenty of pay in their pockets. It made for some pretty wild night life with several clubs booking young English rock bands that didn't sound half bad.
Tom
Thankfully this is a trend I’m seeing in Britain as well, which means that the standard of the average pub is way higher than when I left to come to the USA in 1983!
John
Well, they don't mean "hash BROWNS", das' fer sure.
Well sure. Pot is all over Amsterdam, but you have to get past the thick regular tobacco to smell it. The Dutch have their own brands, but the smell recalls Citanes and Disques Bleus (French brands).
Given the choice, I much prefer the smell of Pot, though my entire experience of smoking is one drag from a cigarette at age 10 (my mother gave it to me). I threw up in the sink, wasn’t allowed to have another breakfast. End of tobacco, and smoking in general.
My sisters used to smoke and on one occasion I contributed £20 towards some pot that went into hash brownies. Tried one, didn’t do anything and decided that alcohol was much better value for money!
But I still like the smell of pot smoke.
Not all of Europe share the same legal drinking age. In UK, it's 18. But countries like France, Italy, Spain do not have legal age for drinking. If they did, many Catholic churches would be in trouble.
Reading the other posts, I noticed that you live in Europe. Is it 18 in there? If so, where is it? Belgium? Holland? Just curious.
I'm Japanese but lived in France and England and have lived in NYC for the last 16 years. Welcome to Subtalk!
BTW, in UK it was 16 for smoking, 18 for drinking. In the US, it differed from state to state, but now it's 18 for smoking, 21 for drinking everywhere as far as I know.
It know the US ages :-)
Thats why i wrote it.
Yes. I lived there(well... suburbs), too. Still go there to show our son to the grandparents once a year.
There are two subway systems in Tokyo (and no free transfer in between). The Eidan and Municipal. Only a few lines have interchangeable equipment on the Eidan. The 4 Municipal lines have 3 different gauges and 4 different signaling system.
On subway line maps i've seen the two systems. Do you have to pay
only a little "difference" or have to buy a new tickte when transfering?
Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean there. The trains run left-handed as in London and the signals (if they exist on that line) are pretty much standard green-yellow-red coloured in most cases. After doing some research, here's what I found. This info may be a few years dated.
On the Eidan, the last ATS train ran in 1998 and only a few lines have signalling on the tracks. So it's mostly cab signalling.
On the Municipal, Asakusa line remains ATS. The three other lines are either ATC or ATO cab signalling.
As for the fare, it used to be that you get a minimal(10%) discount when you bought a through ticket. Now with all the different multiple ride passes, I don't know exactly how it works. Probably still a 10% discount for the second system. Season tickets would give you more discount.
NYC subway signaling shows for diverging yellow+distant info (green or
yellow). I don't understand how the driver know the allowed speed there.
(bad english knowledge)
What is used in Tokyo? Cab signaling is only extesion in my eyes and
doesn't matter - If it fails you have to use signals to continue driving.
But when cab signalling is in place, you don't see much of ground signalling. The ones in the cab are not an extension and probably the only signals, unless you are going through a switch or headed to a yard.
If they fail, the whole line stops unless the line shares some kind of ATS type of system. I guess the idea of cab signalling as the main thing is not what you want to believe. But in NYC too, MetroNorth don't have any on-the-tracks signals besides the absolutely necessary ones. The rest of them are most likely, only in the cab.
I don't understand how the driver know the allowed speed there.
By signs and signals... Well, believe it or not. Most NYC subway cars didn't have a speedometer until quite recently. They follow the signals. If you're going too fast, you'd trip the cock and you're in trouble.
As for Tokyo, I'm not an expert in signalling but I know that they were so different from line to line that you have to ask me about a specific line. Too much experiment and innovation, there...
This pdf file is about North America but explains well about train control.
Those pages showed up on a google search "Tokyo subway ATC ATO".
this one
People on this board often use html to insert images too.
Like:
<a href="http://www.jrtr.net/jrtr21/F44_Technology.html">this one</a>
People on this board often use html to insert images too.
<img src="http://www.nycsubway.org/gif/smlogo.gif">
And we complain about NYCT...
In Japan, usually the employer pays the commute expenses of the employees. Some companies forces you to use the cheaper route, while the others will pay the shortest time route.
This practice is not common among Japanese companies in NYC (they most likely go the cheaper way if they did, and even more likely that they don't pay at all), but is practiced in some of them.
Nah, I never worked for one that did....
and the best chocolate in the world.
Also Amsterdam has Schipol airport, with good rail connections to the center city and a great duty free section. Try some Aud Gouda and see what you have been missing. You can then understand why “American Cheese” is an oxymoron!
I travelled on Eurostar from Waterloo to the Gard du Nord not long after it opened. Since my mother was paying, we went First Class which was nice–free champagne at our seats! However, as a train ride it wasn’t one of the world’s most interesting. The slow speed section from Waterloo to the tunnel was the scenic part (due to be replaced by the high-speed line to St Pancras), then the tunnel where there was nothing to see, and finally the French section where the train got up to speed through some boring stretches of industrial Normandy.
Have a great trip either way.
John
Brussels airport also has a rail connection to downtown. What it lacks is a real airline serving it, but that's another story.
Its neighbor, Luxembourg also has no trans Atlantic carrier. Although it may have one, I can't think of the name of a Danish airline. In fact, Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark seem to share the multinational SAS.
Tom
No offense to the people in Luxembourg, but their county's small enough to be disregarded for these purposes.
SAS is the flag carrier for Norway, Sweden and Denmark. Finland has it's own carrier, Finnair.
I suppose the award for the most obscure foreign airline to serve the United States would have to be Uzbekistan Airways, although you could make a good argument for Ethiopian Airlines, Biman Bangladesh, and TACV Cabo Verde :)
My vote is still with Amsterdam!
Direct train service to Central Brussels is about every 20 minutes. Unlike Amsterdam, or Frankfurt, or CDG in Paris there is NO direct International Train service, you must first go to Midi or Nord and transfer (the airport line is a spur off the mainline).
Alas, SABENA is no more; a sign of things to come as "flag" carriers are being forced to privatize and compete. Economy measures abound - at least this winter on UA, the drinks (alcoholic) in coach were included, as were the standard hot towel service. This spring on KLM, the towel service was abandoned (in coach) but drinks were still included. I noticed a small item from CO stating that they were charging the standard US price for a drink on all TransAtlntic flights. I flew CO on a trip to the Cape, and return from Montreal last year after an absence from them of 3 years. The BEST part were the flights out of CLE on the RJ's (op'ed by CO Exp).
Oh yes, booking on Air France to BRU - of course via CDG; you will sometimes be routed via TGV from CDG. A pleasure after the ubiquitous jumbo trip.
That said, Europe needs to get rid of all of the national flag-carrier subsidies/sweetheart deals. British Airways is at least private, though it has too many of the landing slots at Heathrow. Then there can be real competition across the Atlantic and we can see some service that meets demands.
John
Greece will keep Olympic Airlines going because it's the "official carrier" of next year's Olympic games in Athens.
What used to be British Rail Southern Region (no idea about what the operating companies are called now) has third rail. The Eurostar run has catenary the whole way.
The speed-limiting factor on the British side is the winding route through Kent. This is being addressed with new track and a new terminus between King’s Cross and St Pancras.
Aside: has anyone seen what is going to happen to the Waterloo terminus? Abandoned? Used for something else?
No, the Eurostar runs on third rail in the UK. See this photo of a Eurostar at Beckenham Junction from the window of a Croydon Tram.
Presumably the new high speed line is catenary powered, I haven't seen any photos yet but I'm sure there's some on the web.
I should apologize, because, as David has pointed out I was wrong. The “subway” method of electric current collection is generally called “third rail” in English.
I’m still looking for construction photos of the new connection to King’s Cross/St Pancras. I assume it will use catenary.
Does anyone know where the changeover occurs?
Where do you live?
John
/Shrug... s_it happens.
I don't remember the last time I rode an R-46 on the E, although it was within the last year. Also, after 9/11 many E trains were R-46 for at least 6-8 weeks. -Nick
Wayne
1) How many tracks are there on each level of Grand Central Station. Not subway tracks.
2) How many loop tracks are there?
3) Where can I find pictures of those boxy locos that the NY Central used to use. Also specifications like horsepower and wheel arrangements?
Any help will be appreciated
3) You can try this website in general http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc.html and this in specific http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-elec.html
I'd love to. But when I tried it on Monday afternoon, two cops and their german sheapard convinced me that I was trespassing by being just past the doorway between the lower level concourse and the "track area" and not heading to a train. I wasn't even on the ramps that head down. I was also not beyond a big red sign saying something about the "area beyond this point is only for MNR employees" or something. So I turned around and walked out, and behind me I heard one of them say "and no photos!" Photos are certainly allowed in the main concourse, so what, they have different rules for track level? Are these rules posted anywhere?
BTW, many thanks for that great "frozen in time" photo.
You're very welcome.
Tell that to the idiot that told me I "wasn't supposed to be taking photos here" last Wednesday in the Concourse. Although that was after I snapped one photo in the track area, but this was on the other side of the station, so that had nothing to do with him. Oh well, I was done for the day anyway, as I had to get to an appointment, but it sure wouldn't stop me from going back.
The tracks are another story. Like I already said, years ago I use to constantly snap photos there on the platforms and no one bothered you even if you were just walking on the platforms not taking photos. I should have known it changed just like everything else did in the last few years, but I really didn't think about it until last week.
Try visiting GCT during PM rush hour, and enter the platforms from the new 46th St crossover. As long as you keep moving around no one will ever notice you're not getting on a train. The only issue would be if there were signs somewhere that said "no persons allowed on platforms except with ticket".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
2) I think there is only 1 loop remaining in the entire station. I think it's lower level. The last time I was down there, I noticed the loop wasn't in use. Too many obstructions preventing the loop from being used.
3) Probably the only place to find pics of NYC boxy locos might be in the different railfan books about NYC and the old trains.
1:1 scale :). It's not coming out of my pocket. Are they trying to unload any?
They can be contacted here:
Mohawk & Hudson Chapter,
National Railway Historical Society
Box 2131,
Albany, N.Y. 12220-0131.
or email at:
jhart1@nycap.rr.com
they are still in daily use however.
2. If I have a ticket for Kew Gardens(Zone 1) and I go to Penn Station(Zone 1) I could do that?
Yes, you'll pay a step up fare or the difference between peak and off peak. You do not have to pay any penalty fare. I've done this myself in the past.
I'm not sure about question #2.
Bill "Newkirk"
2. I'm not sure what your asking. If you buy a ticket from Bellmore to Kew Gardens, and instead stay on that train and go to Penn, it shoulden't be a problem. My LIRR monthly says Bellmore to Flatbush, and I go to penn often enough without a problem. I've even done Garden City to Flatbush and Hicksville to Penn without any problems.
You pay a step-up, which is the difference between the discounted off-peak fare and the full (but not on-board) peak fare. If you do this with all ten trips on an off-peak ten-trip ticket, you'll wind up paying exactly what you would have paid for a peak ten-trip ticket.
Word on the street is that collectors don't make coin change any longer, so have quarters ready.
If I have a ticket for Kew Gardens(Zone 1) and I go to Penn Station(Zone 1) I could do that?
Are you asking whether or not that ticket will get you to that station? Yes.
On the LIRR, the zones are the only thing that matters as far as your fare is concerned. The branch and station stamps are mere formalities. A collector may question your destination, but this is not to challenge your ticket's validity for transportation, it's only to help you get where you're going.
Watch the Crap!
Mark
Mail & Ride Zone 10 tickets on the main line issued since last May's zone consolidation read "Medford." That's rather amusing as over 99% of the people using these tickets travel from Ronkonkoma rather than Medford.
Photos, including the beautiful LV F7, and a shot of the canal swing bridge, on this Webshots page, beginning with the third photo.
I guess they wouldn't take my money because I've worked with Tony and the CMSL in setting up West Jersey Chapter NRHS charters.
I assume M-407 can run under its own power. Its engine was running to operate the air conditioning. I missed the distinctive sound of the Budd Car's motors revving up during acceleration.
Robert Ray=T/O who was drunk and caused 14th Street wreck.
Peace,
ANDEE
Robert Ray=T/O who was drunk and caused 14th Street wreck.
Peace,
ANDEE
Runs in the family, brah..
Maybe it's because the ones at Little Silver are out of order so frequently, but I've notified the crew on two occasions - both times they had not been told prior - and the fee has been waived. The credit card/debit card feature is almost always out of order, but these two Sunday mornings neither machine would take cash either.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Only one is at my station, which can be a problem at times. Granted, Metro-North expects passengers to arrive early enough so there won't be a rush. But maybe if my station had a few machines, then one machine not working wouldn't be such a big deal. -Nick
More
Trouble
Ahead
I agree that this is a disgrace. But here is the real kicker; even if I did have time to call the number so maybe they can notify the crew, there are still no waivers on any conditions. -Nick
Peace,
ANDEE
I know, it seems sarcastic, but it's what you get if you read between the lines. MTA likely gets charged a per-transaction fee, so it's to their benefit to place a minimum limit on transactions. It's not as if Visa/MC found this out in their own investigation, rather, NY1 decided to be a snitch:
"After NY1 told Visa and Mastercard that New York City Transit charges a $4 minimum, both credit card companies said they would take action"
Seriously, most sane people don't use credit cards for small transactions. If you have a credit card, you can probably afford to spend an extra $2 and get a round trip fare on your card.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
""...Bloomberg the ultimate sanctamonious hipocrite.""
Sure he could have! It's spelled "hypocrite".
Campaign for Real English!
Bloomberg did not make the law and did not order the NYPD to enforce the law in the rockaways.
The truth be told as one who participated in numerous keg parties on the beaches of the rockaways in my younger years and one who has witnessed in the past few years neighborhood outcry to stop the parties, the new alcohol on the beach effort in the rockways is enforced hard core in early july for the past 6 years.
The local democratic politicians are doing thier best to make bloomberg look bad. What is he supposed to do, say hey I support drinking on the beach after dark which just happens to be against the law. NO he pledged to honor and enforce the law, it is unfortunite that he was photographed sipping wine at the symphony in central park where it has been unoffically permitted to drink wine at such events. I've seen it in marine park when the symphony comes to town
The fact is that Bloomberg has done a masterfull job managing the city through terrible finacial times. Does anyone remeber the 1970's. One could argue that the city was in worst shape finacially then in the 1970's yet looking around, services are at about the same level as they were 3 years ago
The democratic party is running scared inventing issues to make bloomberg mad trying to distract the public from the amazing feet bloomberg pulled off reorganizing the old board of ed
Just a small recap on the improvements at the board of ed that will begin to show fruit in the next few years
Elliminated 2000 duplicate staff at the school construction authority reducing the cost of building new schools by 1/3
Elliminated hundreds of dead wood employee's at the community school districts
Instituted a cohecive educational frame work from k-12 instead of the 3 separate learning environments (k-5, 6-8, Middle school, High School) Each student gets a "grow reports" at the end of each year showing the student's weakness which get's passed on to the student new teachers to help them target areas that are needed to be targeted
Added accountablity at all levels. Principals and teachers will be monitored from the regional centers and coaches and professional development staff will help teachers especially new teachers like myself to teach the leasons better.
Reduced the size of the central education department allowing the city to sell off 110 livingston street for $45 million. The property will generate a few more million a year in added property tax plus will provide a much needed additioal live performance space to the downtown brooklyn area
The do nothing democratic party who are in the middle of a huge scandal for which civil court judges paid the brooklyn democratic party for thier judge positions and mark green misapropiated campaign funds. If green were elected mayor instead of Bloomberg, we would be under control of the state control board, 1/3 of the police officers would have been layed off, garbage would be everywhere and the middle class tax base would be fleeing the city leaving more people who can not pull their own weight.
Bloomber a hypocrit, he has done practically everything he promised in his campaign. NOONE IS PERFECT and Bloomberg is far from perfect. The improvement he has made in city government will be looked on positively in the future
The revamped Education Department
The smartly put together 311 system where citizens need only call one place and are able to get directed to the proper city agency comlete with operators in over 20 languages plus tracking numbers for which follow ups and accountablity is possible. The local democratic politicans hate the 311 system because it take away from them the one thing they could offer thier constituants, help with who to call. One only needs to know 311
The next time you want to call bloomberg names, look at the facts not the fiction the local tabloid media puts forth. Every 5-6 years the daily news re-runs the same ticket blitz series of article.
...took a beautiful piece of public architecture intended for the Museum of the City of New York and turned it into a cubicle farm.
just proves a double standard - filthy rich drink their wine while the average middle class joe gets busted!!!
If the law is to be enforced it must be enforced equally - NO IFS ANDS OR BUTS!!
There is mo filithy rich people attending the symphony in marine park. Once again you are appling a sterotypical respomce that only the filthy rich enjoy the symphony, simply not true
As per the NY daily news http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/100423p-90770c.html
people were drinking away beer at CI without getting a ticket, a far poorer crowd then the middle class rockaways July 4th party
If you know anything about the area of the rockaways where the party for which the summons were issued, the local community has been complaining for year about roudy drunkin people on the beach at night. July 4th was the mother party of the year on the beach. COULD IT BE THAT PEOPLE CALL IN AND COMPLAINED ABOUT THE DRINKING
That is the most likly senario
"Beer and beach lovers rejoice: You can crack open a cold one on Orchard Beach or Coney Island without much fear of a police summons."
The mayor is getting caught up in net of the democratic machine that wants him out at all cost because he is dismantling the influence at many city agencies by streamlining the beurocracy and elliminating many cronnie positions that the democratic machine has traditionally assigned to thier supporters.
It is against the law to drink on the beach and at park events. Tradidtionally unless the crowd is rowdy or public complaints are filed, the police rarely enforce the law on drinking..
It would not be far fetch to say that the incident in the rockaways was not a setuyp to make bloomberg look bad. Not far fetched at all. Like I mentioned in a previous post, thier has traditionally been complaints of roudy drinkers on the beach in the rockaways
The fee is a fixed percentage of the amount charged by the card holder. A $10 charge costs the MTA the same percentage as a $2 charge.
Not unless they've changed the rules since I managed a small business. We were assessed a per-transaction fee and a sliding percentage based on the transaction amount (although a $2 and a $10 charge would have been the same percentage, plus the fixed fee).
Major merchants - and in particular government agencies - often have special contracts negotiated that don't fit the standard terms and conditions. It wouldn't surprise me if the MTA was one of those and is indeed exempt from the "no minimum purchase" rule, despite what the spokespeople for Visa and MC said.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Peace,
ANDEE
Hmmm, in order to receive permission to allow customers to use credit cards, you have to accept a 50 cent charge on a $2.00 transaction. And all the credit card companies have this rule.
Can you say monopoly?
Yes, but can you DEFINE monopoly?
Or even better: MONOPSONY!
Depends on the fine print in their contracts,
Peace,
ANDEE
--Mark
The nasty clerk said what are you going to do walk out?
Walk out is exactly what I did. Plus wrote a letter to the store owner expressing my displeasure with both his policy and the workers comments and the fact that he will be losing about $500 in sales a year as I take my business elsewhere.
Elias
AMEX charges a huge transaction fee to merchants for travelers checks. A store such as radio shack will normally accept them
As per visa/mastercard and thier hatred of minimum balance's. My father mentioned to me at the dinner table this evening that when credit cards first came out that most stores required a $20 min a large sum of money back then which got the public trained to use credit cards only for large purchance's. The brains at the visa/mastercard did a study and found out that people spend far more money in the 0-20 range then they do in the 20-1000 range and worked to speed up the processing times of transactions to make such transactions possible. It now takes less time to pay by credit card in many cases then paying by case. Not the case even 10 years ago. The trick is that visa/mastercard moved the aproval proccess onto the stores internal computers instead of having to dial out for each comfirmation
Not true. AMEX, like other issuers of traveler's checks, has established a service charge which is paid by the purchaser of the traveler's check - 1% of face value, IIRC, although many banks and credit unions waive this fee for their customers (both credit unions and the one commercial bank where I have accounts waive them). They are paid for the face value of the checks at the time the checks are delivered to the bank and make their profit off the "float" between the time the bank pays them for the check and the time the check clears - often months or even years later. (I believe the average time between issuance of a traveler's check by AMEX to a bank and the time the check actually clears AMEX is in excess of six months; this figure includes the AMEX Gift Cheques.) To a receiving merchant they are the equivalent of a guaranteed check - credited to their account the same as cash, no hold on the funds and no fee or percentage assessed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Small merchants often get screwed with per trascaction charge, the MTA should not be subject to these charges.
The post office accepts credit cards for even small transactions. Other businesses require higher amounts.
MTA's policy is not unreasonable.
Not only is MTA's policy not unreasonable, I wouldn't expect it to change, either. I doubt anything will come from this other than perhaps this SubTalk discussion.
Visa and MC have little to gain by attempting to enforce their policy on the MTA. As I see it, the MTA's likely reaction would be to simply no longer accept Visa and MC at their machines. They would still be able to accept ATM cards and cash -- and AmEx would then allow them to have minimums for their charges. Given the number of different ways people today have electronic access to cash, I wouldn't think there would be too many customers truly inconvenienced by such a change.
The "action" promised by Visa and MC will probably be a strongly worded letter in an envelope which has "Please discard without reading" stamped on it.
CG
Doesn't even have to be a real credit card. I seldom carry cash, and I use my Visa Check Card for everything, including buying MetroCards.
Mark
I also use our one credit card for everything, even though:
1) I don't get any reward points, and
2) I have never used the credit -- the balance is automatically deducted from our checking account every month.
Cash can be lost or stolen, so I carry little of it, a habit left over from the 1980s and early 1990s. It is also a pain to get it. A credit card provides a montly list of what I spent on, so I can compare it with our budget. I have no idea what the cash was spent on.
That said, I would never buy a single ride, and I think this whole issue is made up nonsense. I can understand someone who is on welfare, and refusing to comply with the work requirement and thus docked some benefit, not being able to afford more than the one round trip per month to the welfare office. But a one way? The only time I have ever taken mass transit just one way is when there has been an auto trip the other way, and people who own, borrow, or rent autos are not poor.
A recent article in the Kansas City Star related the activities of a used car dealer who buys cars at auction, many with over 100,000 miles on the odometer, and sells them for $70 up front and 18% annual interest. Total principal financed: two times blue book value. His target: poor people. And the dealer is lax about getting title paperwork done.
His attorneys files 20 lawsuits per month whenever the people buying his cars miss a payment. One guy even got sued after he returned the car!
Ah, the infamous "buy here pay here" used-car marketplace. High markups and interest rates are said to make this field quite profitable despite double-digit default rates. Payments usually must be made weekly, rather than monthly as with legitimate financing, so defaults can be recognized (and cars repossessed) that much more quickly.
Some dealers go so far as to add timer devices that cut off a car's ignition each week. When a weekly payment's due, the borrower has to go to the dealership to pay in person, personal checks not accepted, and have the timer reset. If the buyer doesn't appear on the payment due date, the car won't start.
Is this valid at all gas stations or only one particular brand. My sunoco card only pays 4% and have to use sunoco stations only.
I'll have to take a closer look at nexts months AAA magazine
Don't understand why they have to go through this hassle with single ride riders.
Just another example of bureaucratic stupidity.
LT stock is thicker than single-use metrocards, and your comparison with a one-day travelcard, which gets possibly 6 uses (LT is a check in and out system) is unfair.
London residents: what does LT use for monthly and annual travelcards? I would guess that they are plastic-based, since they need to be flexible to go through the machines.
John
The reason is simple, the credit cards give a rebate of points for each transaction
As for the MTA not taking credit cards for single rides it does not make finacial sense.
It cost far more to send out a person to refill and maintain an MVM more often then it does to pay a tiny transaction fee of about 1-2%. If the MTA does not have these good terms with the credit card issueres then sombody made a serious contract mistake
Credit cards are great for ALL transactions. I think that fast food restaurants should finally start accepting credit cards.
Some do. But it slows the transaction down, especially at the drive-thru.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know that some now do, even in the New York area, but I have yet to see one in this area that accepts CCs. When I was 17, in addition to having had some very good beer I purchased with a fake ID (my name was Brian McGee, I stayed up listening to Queen), I didn't have a bank account but I had a credit card, I had to find an ATM and make a large cash advance because I had run out of money.
American Pig is also correct that many fast food resturants especially near highways are accepting EZ_pass
If you have a networked cash register (this includes the MVMs), with a permanent connection to the credit card authorizer, then the amount is already known, and the network time for the transaction is negligible.
I presume it’s something regulatory, but I’m surprised that the local Bells don’t offer a cheap low-speed internet service that’s always connected. Should be cheap to do: just requires a terminal server in the CO, and that could probably be integrated with the switch itself these days!
John
Peace,
ANDEE
But we've been through this before. There are no blanket rules -- there are contracts between the credit card issuer and the vendor. The standard contract requires that vendors accept credit cards for all transactions, but the MTA is a large enough vendor that surely it has a custom contract. I haven't seen the contract myself, but I doubt the MTA's lawyers would settle for one that retained the usual no-minimum clause given the minimum imposed by the MVM's.
In other words, I doubt there's anything here.
http://usa.visa.com/
Peace,
ANDEE
Do you think Visa wants to risk the fees that they get on monthly commuter rail tickets each month in order to get the revenue from the occasional $2 purchase?
CG
Master Card is headquartered in Purchase NY (Westchester County). You don't think they were more than well aware of the MTA's minimums? Surely many of their own employees have used the machines.
They know all about it and have chosen not to pursue the issue.
Both credit card companies have department who's sole purpose is to track down, fine or recoke users who violate the no Minimums rule. Both companies have been spending million of dollars a year premoting the use of thier services for people to use on everyday purchaces, not enforcing the rules defeats the purpose
smarty pants
I strongly doubt Visa or Mastercard would revoke their agreement with the MTA, even if the contract allows them to do so.
I also can't imagine that an item such as MTA's unwillingness to allow $2 purchases with a card wouldn't be covered in their contracts. The MTA almost certainly covered itself in the contracts; they have very cautious lawyers.
Thier may have been a gentlemens agreement of don't ask and we won't sell.
IF Visa and Mastercard make a stink expect the MTA to allow $2 purchances at MVM's. In the long run it will save the MTA money by increasing MVM uptime and reducing the need further for Token booths. To be honest, if a person has a credit card, illustrates normal riding behabior, 99% of the time said person will be more then one ride thus any reduction in revenue chewed up by any transaction fee is negligiable
Factor in the cost saving vs having extra S/A on duty and increased MVM maintance, and the fact a person with a credit card in very few instances will charge only one fare. It makes good business sense to allow single ride credit card purchaces. Plus the MVM's process credit card transactions FAST.
It Takes me less then 20 secounds to navigate the screen, select my card and pay with my credit card. Faster then feeding a cripled dollar into the dollar slot or feeding 8 quarters into the change slot
The real problem with the MVM is that they do not return $8 in change. Simply replacing the unneeded quarters hopper with an additional dollar coin hopper would solve the problem
Perhaps an additional part of the reason is that MTA doesn't want to reward what it considers its "worst customers". They've clearly trying to drive people away from the single rides (no Metrocard transfer, good only for two hours). Why should they then go foot the bill so somebody can get Airline miles or a cash rebate by purchasing one.
MTA is saying in effect that the single ride costs $2 -- never a penny less -- and that you get no perks for buying it.
CG
You must wake up every morning and look at the glass and see it half empty
The reason why the MTA suits most likly decided that single ride purchaces would be case only are
1) Possible transaction fee
2) The common perception that it takes longer to process a credit card transaction then a cash transaction. At MVM's this is no the case
It costs the MTA a lot more to sell a single ride vs a customer buing multiple rides. I estimated that it may cost up to nearly $.75 a transaction including cost of s/a, MVM, mvm maintance etc. It is no secret that the MTA gives you EXTRA's if you buy multiple rides. But in the case of single ride credit card sales, it is actually bennificial for the MTA to all such sales. As I pointed out before, if you 99% of people who charge their metrocard purchaces are going to buy $10 anywhy to get the discount.
The other 1% will not cost the MTA much and will silence the critics who are looking to make thier name at the MTA expense. If you look at how the MTA is run today, it is run better today then it has operated in the last 50 years.
If I did, wouldn't my kitchen smell really bad too?
I'm not convinced that this decision has as much to do with the transaction fee as some earlier posters thought. After all, what real good does a $4 minimum do for anybody?
Perhaps it has to do with the traceability of the paper metrocards and the need to honor the refund and dispute resolution policies of the credit card companies?
Or, perhaps more likely, they just want to make the $2 card as inconvenient as possible.
CG
In the MTA's case each side has plenty of power -- I think the MTA actually has more power -- each has so much power that diddly squat issues like whether or not you can buy a $2 metrocard when you can buy a $4 metrocard become the proverbial pimple on the elephant's fanny.
CG
Elias
Anyway, I exercised my rights under Federal Law, by submitting a letter to my Credit card issuer explaining my dispute with NYCT. So a little over a month later, I was credited with the $63 and NYCT lost out.
BTW, I am very glad you went the other way and won, it's just too bad that you had to go through it at all.
Peace,
ANDEE
So, NYCT lost the $63 from my card issuer reimbursing them AND an additional $63 was lost because the other person who found my card and used it for the entire period. Thats $126 in the hole for just being dumb.
So I knew that I won my case.
I don't think they currently have that ability. This is why MTA cannot yet offer an Insured MetroCard - because you have to be able to cancel a card before you issue a replacement.
With all due respect to "Kool-D," the "won't he heard from the MTA clerk should have been "can't."
However, that capability is coming.
'
Why do people post about things they know NOTHING about.
The MTA regularly cancels lost or stolen student or reduced fare Metrocards. They also cancel cards where the central server finds a discrepancy because the card was copied.
Sorry, the MTA holds all the cards here. Visa/MC/Amex are just regulations, not laws. If MTA cancels their contract with the credit card companies, they'll be out a lot of $$$.
Peace,
ANDEE
Not true, except for those who never eat out, always prepare food from scratch, never go to movies or other (non-free) entertainment, don't have cable TV, etc. All it takes is a one-time $10 investment to reduce the effective fare from $2.00 to $1.67, and $10 is easily obtained by foregoing one of those luxuries once or twice (or, rather, postponing them until after 25 rides).
The real problem is one of education. Too few people in this position are familiar with the concept of saving. Every last penny earned in one paycheck must be spent before the next paycheck comes.
There should be an MVM at the northbound entrance, but there's no need for a booth -- not many people go north from Jackson, and I don't think the station is so busy that afternoon rush crowds overwhelm the HEET's.
Thankfully, finacial wise, I'm doing much better these days.
My point is thus, do not judge others or their financial status or better yet:
Do not judge a man 'til you have walked a mile in their shoes.
I feel better now.
Peace,
ANDEE
Statistics show over and over that people who jump turnstlyes commit acts of vandalism and crime.
Hey Douce, where is out protector and needed security professional the S/A. If you listen to the TWU they provide security. If all these people are evading the fare it is obvious that s/a provide near zero security to riders
If the CCTV is monitored by security professionals they will see the actual incident and call police much sooner then waiting for a passenger to contact a s/a who are often a football field away from the place of the incident
"Prople jump over the turnstles because they know the chances of getting nabbed are slim at best. With CCTV, the only way someone will get caught is if they hang around after doing their deed. Most prople simply are not going to wait. They'll jump because their train is waiting there. "
If the CCTV system is monitored and police can be notified of the perpetraitors decription, where he is, or what train he jumped on by radio or preferable via a handheld PDA device that could recieve picture to allow police to properly identify the perpertraitor.
Such systems are not that expensive and far less expensive then having dedicated S/A sitting in booths to sell fares for which fewer and fewer people need to use token booths. Transit check metrocard gold resgistrations are up 40% per months since march as per the NYTIMES.
The pictures of the turnstyle jumper or even short videos can be transmitted via wi-fi(802.11b/c) or the emerging less prone to interferance ZigBee protocol http://www.internetnews.com/wireless/article.php/2233951
On the contrary -- if the NYCT and NYPD systems are linked, the police can actually see the culprit on video.
IT"S THIER OWN FAUAT. THE RIDING PUBLIC SHOULD NOT HAVE TO PAY FOR THIER INCOMPITENCE
The good news is that I made $3.5k today
The Bad news, I mispelled a few words in my subtalk posts
Back to work monday morning
He has no reason.
His only purpose is to keep stirring the pot.
Don't reply to his "posts" and he'll go away.
No truer words were ever spoken. Those who are suggesting that the very poor can afford to invest $10.00 in a Metrocard have probably never been in the situation of having only $10.00 in their pocket with three days to go until more money is coming in, and bills outstanding for all of the expected money.
It is really no different than having enough money to go to Costco and save money by buying 48 rolls of toilet paper and 24 bars of soap, four tubes of toothpaste, and a fifty lb drum of laundry detergent, and paying about $120 at the checkout counter for things that might cost $150.00 if bought in smaller quantities. Those who have enough money to invest in more goods (or services with subway rides) than they need immediately save money. To suggest that those who do not have the excess funds to take advantage of the savings are stupid is nothing more than a manifestation of the Calvinist belief that those who are not rich are ungodly.
Tom
Hmmm. As long as the extant system is not based only on meeting the needs of the "lowest common denominator". IOW, it's a damn shame that some of the riders can't afford to take advantage of the available small savings given to advance ride purchasers. But that doesn't change the need to have those minor savings based, a little, on a bit of frugality on the purchasers part. Consider it a goal to aspire to.
Hmmm. As long as the extant system is not based only on meeting the needs of the "lowest common denominator". IOW, it's a damn shame that some of the riders can't afford to take advantage of the available small savings given to advance ride purchasers. But that doesn't change the need to have those minor savings based, a little, on a bit of frugality on the purchasers part. Consider it a goal to aspire to.
The percentage is closer to 99% then 90%. The fact is that if you commute to work at least 2 days a week, buying at least $10 at a time makes sense and does not effect your budget in any way no matter your income unless you plan on jumping the turnstyle a few times.
I remember people when I worked at DOI who complained they could not afford to spend $15 on a metrocard at a time. These small minded people got paid bi-weekly just like me and rode 10 rides a week just like me. One could not get it in thier thick head that it made sense.
Rather illogical. If these "working poor" people cannot afford to buy more than one fare when thy're heading to work, how can they afford a fare to get home from work?
I know that may sound crass but I have seen it often enough.
Well - if you can't take the HEET, stay out of the station.
who pays thier salaries?
The TWU and other suckers who they can persuad to donate under the premise that they are helping people.
It's all the political game. Unless you see politics from the inside as a game of power, you may not truely understand the full magnitude of the situation
Another political entity that serves no real purpose is the Boruough president office
Despite a staff of dozens of suits, nothing substainal occurs at the BP office
Can anyone tell me what positive has ever come out of the city concil
The concil idiots basically vote as per the speaker and the local democratic machine.
Peace,
ANDEE
Or how about 4,352 Free Students who boarded a bus that was "Not In Service" on June 10th ... N-O-T
The system's data base has enough errors in it that we don't need to help it.
Peace,
ANDEE
The est interest is to move to a more auotmated systme for fare sales and collection
In fact they should licence out metrocard encoders to third party retailers such as newstands and bodegas similar to the lotto resellers network.
The third party entitly could sell metrocards in any denomination he/she chooses.
Peace,
ANDEE
Transit chek metrocard subscriptions are rising at a pace of 40% a month. Plus the city concil is preposing a bill to require any business that employs more then 50 employees to offer transit chek to thier employee's Each one of these riders will NOT BE BUYING A FARE IN STATION.
Bring fare sales to where the people are, in the local bodega's, newstand, resturants, supermarkets and gas stations. Providing metrocard encoders will lower the upfront cost of selling metrocards and will double overnight the number of merchants who sell metrocard.
Plus any LEGALLY employed worker who rides transit reguarly and does not participate with the easy transit chek program can easily afford to prepurchace 5 rides(2.5 days worth of fares at at time)
This would also reduce the presure at MVM's which will largly sell to the occasional tranit rider
As a regular transit rider, I purchase my fare media ONLY from MVM's. I'm not going to make an EXTRA trip to some local store in order to buy a Metrocard.
The stores will have simialar metrocard encoders as the s/a currently have. Diverting as little as 15% of metrocard sales to third party retailer will significantly reduce the maintance requirement of MVM's.
Remember if the city concil succeeds on passing a law requiring all employers employing 50 or more people to offer transitcheck metrocard program, fewer people will need to worry about purchacing metrocards.
ALL customers riding the subway enter through a station, it makes the most sense to do sales there. I am not going to start buying newspapers every morning. I am not going to start buying coffee ANY morning.
I need to pickup an unlimited ride card for tommorrow(really I do) If I knew for sure that I could buy a monthly unlmited at the store near the bus I'd head over on my way to the bus and pick one up.
Since they don't have a metroccard encoder and they may not carry or be out of monthly unlimited's I need to jump in my car and use the MVM at the station.
ALL customers riding the subway enter through a station, it makes the most sense to do sales there. I am not going to start buying newspapers every morning. I am not going to start buying coffee ANY morning.
Remember if the city concil succeeds on passing a law requiring all employers employing 50 or more people to offer transitcheck metrocard program, fewer people will need to worry about purchacing metrocards.
Hopefully they do not do so as many people in the city do not need to ride the subway.
Why would you need to buy a newspaper every morning. 90%+ of the daily riders who ride the subways enter the fare control with money already on thier metrocards.
Those who do not still have the option of using an MVM. It is more cost effective to the MTA and to subway riders to push some of the cost per sale to outside vendors
"Remember if the city concil succeeds on passing a law requiring all employers employing 50 or more people to offer transitcheck metrocard program, fewer people will need to worry about purchacing metrocards.
Hopefully they do not do so as many people in the city do not need to ride the subway."
People working at these companies have the option of participating in the transitchek program or not participate. The point simply states is that fewer people will need to purchaces a metrocard becasue the metrocards are refille dautomatically thru payrole deductions
I shouldn't be forced to go to an outside store EVER to buy a Metrocard. Unless there is no subway station nearby.
Those who do not still have the option of using an MVM. It is more cost effective to the MTA and to subway riders to push some of the cost per sale to outside vendors
Outside vendors don't want to subsidize the MTA, nor should they.
Why do stores put items on sale sometimes at a loss? To get people into thier store where once there will buy other items that make the store money. Milk is a common staple item where store owners offer at a good price to get people in the store. Selling metrocards is the same type of draw.
No one is forcing you to buy from third party retailer. Many will choose to because it fits their lifestyle
Peace,
ANDEE
My point is thus, do not judge others or their financial status or better yet:
Do not judge a man 'til you have walked a mile in their shoes.
I feel better now.
Peace,
ANDEE
working class people get paid once every one or two weeks just like the rest of us
If they need to take 10 rides a week, whether they buy all ten at one time or one at a time, they will not get another cash infusion until thier next pay check
Since the discount program kicks in at only 5 rides, half the weekly need of the average working class person, it makes no difference whether they buy 5 rides at a time or buy one ride at a time
The $2 non discount rate covers the additional cost of providing addtion S/A on duty and MVM's to sell the fares
I think that I may still have one at Mom and Dad's.
Chip
At one time when my fatehr was out of work we ate pasta for 15 straight days because it was all my mother could afford. The point is simple, if you are going to use 3-5 rides a week especially if you are poor you need to find a way to save the extra two dollars even if it means not buying your child a little extra. Growing up toys and present s were for birthdays and christmas only. Other then that no extras's, no fast food, and almost no prepared food from outside the house. This allowed my parent to save for a downpayment on a home for which they now in thier early 70's do not need to worry as much
People must take personal responcibility seriously
I can tell you about POVERTY .... I live UPSTATE. Taxes are almost the same as NYC, but the income is 1/3 that. I've LIVED in trees without a roof (OR the luxury of cardboard to keep the rain out) ... I've BEEN "evicted" ... I've BEEN so damned poor that I *couldn't* try to get a job. I've PLEADED with welfare offices to give me a LOAN that I would repay if ONLY they'd front me the money for a pair of shoes and a SUIT to go on interviews with. BUZZZZZZZzzz ... system ain't DESIGNED to make you presentable to ***GET*** a job. STILL ain't :(
Folks that have met me in person may have noticed I was missing a few teeth. I STILL AM! I meant to get that fixed three years ago, but ain't had the money to do so. If I was in a position (we'll conveniently forget that I'm 53 years old and CAN'T get hired ANYWHER just because of my AGE) to look for another job somewhere, the TEETH would be enough that I wouldn't stand a chance. FORGET the "corporate HMO program" issues at MY age.
PHUCK the republicans. Period. President buy you a new pair of shoes. :(
<< Rafael Munoz, who has owned a newsstand on the street below the station for two decades, said he stopped selling MetroCards when the fare went up in May. At the time, he said, the MTA reduced his take for every $100 sold from 6 percent to 4 percent. "It wasn't worth it," he said. >>
Hey, way to serve the community Rafael! Nice!! :-D
The MTA needs to provide retailers metrocard encoders so that they do not need to carry costly inventory of cards that the current retail program requires.
4% profit with minimal outlay of cash is very good
4% profit where one must lay out money is not as good.
The terminals are essentially free as many will come from closed tooken booths. Modern computer networking makes not that difficult to intergrate the terminals into the MTA network
Does anyone know, or have any proof one way or the other? There is 1 picture on this site of car# 6804 (same number as one of the models)....but the roof is either dirty as hell....or it really is maroon. There are some shiny spots on the roof, but I can't tell if that is silver peeking through the dirt. Can anyone shed some light on this??
Can't seem to get the picture to show. It's img_3191, on the next-to-last page of the R17 photos, car# 6804.
(I Agree With This Post).
When delivered in 1955, they were COMPLETELY maroon but around 1987-1988 some R17's DID IN FACT get maroon paint again & had silver roofs [same scheme like the Redbirds except the base color was a little bit darker].
This, combined with populist opposition to the fare hike, gets the city's small time Democratic pols in the bidding war with Republicans like George Bush to see who can sell out the future more to satisfy the short term whines of our obese, anti-child country. There seems to be no political downside to budget deficits, unfunded pension liabilities, diminished infrastructure investment, lack of concern for the environment, 30 years of ripping off New York City's schools, etc.
I guess is everyone is guilty, no one is guilty. Something for nothing sells, even if the result is (eventually) nothing for something. We are borrowing money to pay off the $billions we borrowed to rebuild the bridges which fell apart in the first place because they weren't maintained, in large part because they were free.
Just remember, most people are on the subway, not on the free bridges. Many people on the free bridges are wealthy, and would probably rather pay if it meant traffic congestion would fall. The winners? People with special permits to park on the street for free in congested areas. The politicals, in other words.
However, as you have pointed out, the major abusers of the whole system are the politicos and assorted hangers-on. I used to work around Cadman plaza, next to the court buildings, and the number of cars parked illegally with placards in their windshields (and the sheer number of different types of placards) just brought home the abuse.
Instead of a bridge fee (which does have a congestion cost to collect), how about getting rid of all the free on-street parking, and doubling (tripling?) the city parking tax and using the money to fund bridge maintenance. I think the collection costs would be less and the results would be the same.
Not with full-speed E-ZPass. This is a very common red herring. Cash toll booths were never on the table.
how about getting rid of all the free on-street parking, and doubling (tripling?) the city parking tax and using the money to fund bridge maintenance. I think the collection costs would be less and the results would be the same.
The results would be very different. Your arrangement would give pass-through traffic a free ride, but would charge Manhattan residents with cars who rarely use the bridges for their maintenance. That's hardly an equitable arrangement.
I agree that all free on-street parking needs to go (everywhere!), except where subsidized by a non-transportation entity. But parking fees should pay for parking, not for other transportation expenses. Those other transportation expenses should be covered by their own users.
I also believe that Manhattan residents who have cars should pay the freight of the space they occupy. I’m sort of rolling bridge maintenance and congestion charges into one here (a bit more than Ken Livingston has done in London, but most of the same ideas apply!).
I would go even further, since the main culprits of congestion in the rush hours are those who feel that they are above riding in shared conveyances and have reserved spaces in private lots in buildings: all spaces should be taxed, including the private ones, and people who have a reserved free space as part of their job should have a tax assessed equal to the average cost of 12 months parking in that area.
That really only leaves taxis and delivery vehicles. I think taxis pay enough, and would be willing to consider some sort of placard for Manhattan driving to compensate for the congestion.
John
Occasional drivers can sign up for E-ZPass too, you know. My average statement (which comes every two months) has about two transactions. When I lived in Illinois it had less.
There's no technological reason prepaid E-ZPass tags can't be rented for cash, for anyone passing through who doesn't have an account of his own.
And those who insist on paying cash can use the existing cash booths at the BBT, QMT, and Triboro.
I also believe that Manhattan residents who have cars should pay the freight of the space they occupy.
Anyone who parks on the street, anywhere, should pay for the privilege. (Many of the cars parked on the streets of my Manhattan neighborhood don't belong to Manhattan residents.)
I’m sort of rolling bridge maintenance and congestion charges into one here (a bit more than Ken Livingston has done in London, but most of the same ideas apply!).
But bridge maintenance and congestion charges have little to do with each other. Your proposed congestion charge isn't a congestion charge at all! Ken Livingstone has done something entirely different. (For one thing, he's exempted residents of the cordoned area, IINM, while you seem to want to hit Manhattan residents hardest of all.)
I would go even further, since the main culprits of congestion in the rush hours are those who feel that they are above riding in shared conveyances and have reserved spaces in private lots in buildings: all spaces should be taxed, including the private ones, and people who have a reserved free space as part of their job should have a tax assessed equal to the average cost of 12 months parking in that area.
You have it backwards again. A lot of those garaged cars belong to Manhattan residents who reverse-commute out of the city or who only use their cars on weekends. They're certainly not responsible in the slightest for the bulk of the congestion, which is in the opposite direction.
If someone's wealthy enough that he can afford to pay for a private parking space in Manhattan -- good for him! He's paid for that space; let him have it. If you want to charge bridge users for maintenance or for congestion, then charge bridge users for maintenance or congestion.
The basic point of a congestion charge is to encourage drivers to travel off-peak, if possible. How does your proposal accomplish that? By definition, a congestion charge is greater for travelers at some times than for travelers at others. Your proposal makes no distinction -- someone who drives into the city at midnight and leaves the car in a garage for the next week is assessed a huge congestion charge, while someone else who cuts across Canal Street during rush hour isn't charged anything. That's not a congestion charge -- it's just a more confusing (and more damaging) version of the mess we have now.
It's not that complicated. In Melbourne, Australia, they have full-speed EZPass (it's not called that though). If you are from out of town and drive past the transponder without a Pass, they photograph your license plate and send you a bill.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
FYI, the policy is reversed. Current city zoning virtually precludes new parking facilities in Manhattan south of 110th street, even in new residential buildings. But the bridges are free. So lots of people show up, looking for a scarce number of on-street spaces. So they double park.
City Planning wanted to change this -- relax the parking restriction, impose the tolls -- but it never even got to the proposal stage. A never-released study found that 14 percent of those driving into Manhattan had those city permits that allowed them to park on the street, even illegally, for free. Every political appointee in Rudy's adminstration got one.
Somehow I don't think the lack of tolls on the bridges is particularly relevant. Anyone who's willing to drive into Manhattan and deal with scarce and/or costly parking probably won't be deterred by a bridge toll. Most of them, no doubt, are the sort who won't ride transit because they'd be in close proximity with us (ick!) Common People. Many of the others have those political-appointee parking permits; easy solution, get rid of the permits.
Most of them just decide on a case-by-case basis whether driving or transit is the best option in that case. Institute tolls and the balance in some cases will be tipped towards transit -- or towards delaying the trip until after rush hour.
And, again, you're forgetting about pass-throughs, for whom parking is irrelevant. Manhattan doesn't have room for pass-throughs, yet the toll structure encourages them.
Do any other cities place upper limits on parking? Most place lower limits. Both are damaging.
OTOH, if all on-street parking were metered, it wouldn't become so hard to find parking anymore. It's silly to pay for on-street parking in time, since no one benefits from parkers' time spend circling (on the contrary, we cause traffic congestion, pollution, etc. just while looking for parking). Payment in cash makes at least benefits the recipient of the cash. (The counterargument is that cash is worth more than time to the poor, so this benefits the rich. But the poor don't have cars in NYC.)
Many of the new apartment buildings in the old Flower District (6th Avenue between 23rd and 28th Streets) have parking areas underneath. Was this allowed because they were built on former parking lots?
How so? ZR 13-42 requires accessory parking in certain residential developments in the Manhattan CBD, and ZR 13-12 permits accessory parking for virtually any other large residential development. Since most of the Manhattan CBD isn't zoned Residential, public parking facilities can be built by special permit under ZR 74-52.
It makes better political sense to leave the bridges free, and then announce who can and cannot use them. Remove all private vehicles from the Brooklyn Bridge, and allow bus and taxis only between say 0500 and 2200 hours on weekdays might be a start. Perhaps put a free trolley car back on the bridge. The Blue Route loops around to south ferry, the Orange Route loops around the WTC-Financial areas. Half of them might originate at the LIRR terminal, and others might originate at Grand Army Plaza.
Sure people will bitch that you are giving "Rich Long Islanders a free ride" but that is not really the case. The fact is that they will SUBSIDIZE the service which is included in their LIRR fares, and this sbusidy includes free rides for those who do not ride the LIRR, and it removes some of the crush from the Subways, giving the rest of Brooklyn a more comfortable ride.
Once this is a success, you can chop off another bridge: make the Manhattan Bridge available to busses, taxis and vehicles with Area Resident Permits (ie: your principal residence, and place where your vehicle is registered, AND GARAGED may qualify for a permit.) only during rush hours, and to delivery trucks during the day time hours.
Another benefit for the rich? Maybe so, but without the rich there are no businesses and no jobs, so quit your bitching, smile nicely, and toss them a bone while you mulkt them for a few more bucks.They'll pay up, and everybody will be happy.
Elias
Business / World Business: Latest German Fad: Leasing Out the Subway
By MARK LANDLER
Frankfurt is making a special, once-in-a-lifetime offer: lease the whole subway system for 99 years with an upfront payment of roughly $100 million.
Full Story
--Mark
http://www.metropla.net/eu/ffm/frankfrt.htm
I can see that an operator coming in and taking the lease could make a go of it depending on what the "traffic will bear for fare" ... the system DOES have some serious vandalism problems though. But yes, I could see someone making a good go of it, but not "auslanders."
Michael
Washington, DC
Because of the design of the control system, the train ran as though it were being operated by a novice operator on his first day in training - throw you off balance acceleration and deceleration, then lurching along until it finally stopped in the station. Certainly better designs exist today, but that one was miserable. My mother was sufficiently impressed with it after two or three trips that she decided the best way from Grand Central to Penn Station was a cab :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Your are comparing 40 year old techology to modern technology
It is like comparing a horse drawn carrige to a supersonic unmanned aircraft
Announcements are made automatically. The system is on the honor system with no fare control except spot checks in the system for tickets.
Why can't the Shuttle use a system similar to Vancouver?
I sometimes wonder why NYCT does not operate under a similar system overnights with one little twist, a rider would signal if he wanted to get off at a particular station. This would reduce travel time overnight.
The paris metro has a handle on the door of some of it's cars which need to be pulled down to open the door. The handle is on both sides of the door. It reduces dwell time by reducing the number of doors that could be held
-Robert King
It is like comparing a horse drawn carrige to a supersonic unmanned aircraft
I think that's slightly greater than a forty year gap...
The ATO system used on the shuttle was a horse drawn carrige compared to todays technology which is a supersonic jet in comparison.
remember the pace of technological evolution in the information technology field is 100 times faster then in the automotive or aeronotical field
Back in 1992 when al gore layed out his vision of an information superhighway every pundit predicted it would cost nearly a trilion dollars to build and decades to rollout. Within a few years scientists found ever evolving solutions to utilize current infrastructure such as DSL over ordinary phone lines and high speed internet over power lines.
I could never imagine walking into bryant park and being able to automatically pick up a wi-fi connection that operates on the same frequency as many cordless phones. Back in the early 1990's one needed to flip dip switches on one's motherboard and modem to set up the apropiate com port and IRQ settings to install a basic modem never mind interoperatble cheap high speed wireless networks. A wireless router can be had for $30 that and takes less then 5 min to set up that allows you to surf the net while you take the sun on your lawn
Not true. The ATO experiment ended with the fire.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Other than three points out of nowhere to start and (almost) dumping the train to stop, it worked pretty well. TOO well, some suspect owing to the fire. Although much was said in pointing the fingers at the TWU for what happened, the fire actually happened elsewhere in the station and the wooden platform caused it to spread to the automated train. If it really WAS sabotage, I would have expected the fire to break out UNDER the train, not on the other side of the station.
But folks didn't like the ride, it was like a rookie T/O that never got the hang of the job.
I don't know about the 142 but the R143 has ATO ability.
There is space for the equipment, all is pending on how the L does with CBTC
Actually, in a way it is the T/O who is eliminated, not the conductor. The remaining employee still opens the door, closes it, makes sure it is safe to proceed, is responsible for customers, etc. -- jobs the conductor does today. Meanwhile, the CBTC system operate the train.
Except that the remaining employee would be in the front of the train scanning the roadbed for a problem (fire, someone on the tracks) and prepared to take over manual operation if and when required. So in effect you have a conductor and emergency T/O.
There is an ATO switch in the cab. Without anything to feed it information, ATO is not that useful.
What planet are you on. ATO saves tons and tons of money.
Concidering the purpose of mass transit is to provide affordable reliable transportation. ATO is esseintial to meeting the above stated goals
Remember any local subsidies the MTA receives is money out of your pocket. Add up the cost of the subsidies that come out of your pocket in the form of tax dollars and outragiously high tolls, and surcharges on such things as your phone and cable bill and your are paying $2.50-3 a ride. Esspecially middle class new yorkers
OK, we flip the switch ATO is now on. How does the train know where it is? The rest of the goodies are not installed in the system.
Sort of like having a TV in the 1903.
When you say a train is equipted to run in ATO any rational person inturprets the situation to mean that the trackage has all the goodies needed to control the trains that run on it's tracks and that the trains have all the goodies to run with the goodies on the track
In the case of the R143's, The trainsets electronically controled prepolsion is capable of interfacing with the control module that will be installed when the trackage on the L line is ready for such operation. Todays trains controls systems are no more then nodes on a network. As long as the systems have the availablity to interact with a certain protocal, that protocal can interface with the trains and any control module. It is just a matter of software just as one could add software to play MP3's or DVD's or add a software to interface with a scanner or a robot that manufactures auto's
XBOX's business model is to take a loss on the XBOX unit and make the money up on selling you video games
All because Microsoft didn't want to encrypt their stupid WAV files. yeah, know all about it - plenty of "how-to" and chatter on the various IRC's where the kids that write viruses and trojans and worms hang out. Amusingly, to give you an idea of the demographic of those who write these nasties, mid-week is usually the busiest time for the script kiddies. There hasn't been a new nasty in three days now, a FIRST in over a year's time! Normally I'd be up to my neck in research and doing a BOClean update now. Nothing to do! I suppose they're all hotwiring their X-Boxes out there. Heh.
The article mentioned that is was more popular in europe and Asia becuase computers cost more there then the do state side. my freinds brother got tired of his Xbox and hot wired it up.
You didn't read the posts or quote them in their context (we have all made that mistake) but instead of owning up you go right to the free insults.
People tale good nature jabs at me, I send them right back
Everyone is intitled to make mistakes.
Liighten up
I got ripped yeaterday for my spelling. I did not take it personal.
I understood him perfectly.
The 143s are ATO ready.
The (L) Lion is not.
So until the (L) Lion gets a brain (or was it a heart) the ATO is only an interesting artifact.
Elias
In essense the R143 are missing the brains also.
ATO ready only means that there are ports availble to hook up ATO components at a latter date. Nothing more
NYCT will never operate ZPTO
ATO does not mean ZPTO. Straphangers campaign will spread false rumors and make it sound like the MTA worked under a cloak of secrecy the same way that they seemed shocked when the MTA moved to close unneeded token booths in lower volume fare controls. It was only a part of a plan dating back to the early 1990's or maybe even earlier
Elias
BART trains DO NOT operate without a TO; the ability is indeed there; but the California Public Utilities Commission forbids it; and actually there is no plan to do so at any time in our lifetimes.
There is some jesting testing, however.
Peace,
ANDEE
1. Fully automatic, no operator needed to do anything
2. Fully automatic operation except operator closes and/or opens doors manually
3. Fully automatic operation but the operator needs to hit the start ATO button each time the train gets indication
4. Fully manual
DC currently operates in the 2nd scenario, two systems that operate using the third scenario are the PATCO in New Jersey and Docklands Light Railway in England. When the WMATA relays failed, WMATA ran in scenario 4.
NYC has had ATO, read the Grand Central-Times Square shuttle page on this website.
1. Fully automatic, no operator needed to do anything
2. Fully automatic operation except operator closes and/or opens doors manually
3. Fully automatic operation but the operator needs to hit the start ATO button each time the train gets indication
4. Fully manual
DC currently operates in the 2nd scenario, two systems that operate using the third scenario are the PATCO in New Jersey and Docklands Light Railway in England. When the
WMATA relays failed, WMATA ran in scenario 4.
NYC has had ATO, read the Grand Central-Times Square shuttle page on this website."
1,2 and 3 falls under the WMATA definition of Mode 1 operation. 4 falls under the WMATA definition of Mode 2 operation.
The automatic door open and or close controls can be cut in or out as well as automatic train start as Oren stated.
I acquired a copy in PDF format of the
WASHINGTON METROPOLITAN AREA TRANSIT AUTHORITY
METRORAIL SAFETY RULES AND PROCEDURES HANDBOOK
GLOSSARY OF METRORAIL TERMINOLOGY
MODE 1
1. Operating mode - Train operation in ATO with ATP.
2. Terminal Mode - The automatic signal mode for Turnback Moves at a Terminal by which the Outbound Trains are routed to track 1 and the Inbound Trains are turned back from track 1.
MODE 2
1. Operating mode - Train operation with train under manual (Train Operator) control with ATP.
2. Terminal Mode - The automatic signal mode for Turnback Moves at a Terminal by which the Outbound Trains are routed to track 2 and the Inbound Trains are turned back from track 2.
MODE 2 LEVEL 1
(Manual with Speed Commands) - Train operation with train under manual (Train Operator) control with operation monitored and protected by the ATP system.
MODE 2 LEVEL 2
(Manual with Zero Speed Commands) - Train operation with train under manual (Train Operator) control with operation partially monitored and protected by the ATP system. Train is operated at restricted speed (15 mph or as directed by OCC) and an Absolute or Permissive Block must be established on mainline. This is the normal operating mode in yards.
MODE 3
1. Operating mode - (Manual with ATP Cut Out) -Train operation under manual (Train Operator) control without ATP monitoring and protection. This mode is not allowed unless passengers are off-loaded at the first available station and an Absolute Block or Permissive Block is established to allow train movement.
2. Terminal Mode - The automatic signal mode at a Terminal for Turnback Moves which crosses over Outbound Trains and turns back Inbound Trains straight through. If the exit of the preferred Outbound Route is occupied, Mode 3 can route Outbound Trains straight through to the Vacant Track and cross over the Train on its Inbound move.
John
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Sorry Andee (Mr. Concourse) and Sparky GG but no one noticed that 10 days ago, it was the 70th Birthday for both the Concourse and Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown lines. They both opened on 7/1/1933. HAPPY BELATED BIRTHDAY.
Peace,
ANDEE
THANKS FOR THE NOTE!!
So far, a few people have joined my group. If you have any questions on this group, please email me directly. Thank you.
This writer has waved to him from the platform
Ridership levels at the station could have been one cause for not doing the rebuild. Money could have been an issue as well.
-Stef
Peace,
ANDEE
Ray Sanchez is a sewer mouth. He never has anything nice to say about NYC (except for parts of Queens).
The paper he works for is a sewer. To this day they have never forgiven the people of NYC for not accepting the "New York Newsday" paper they issued some years ago (and almost went bankrupt because of it).
Newsday is and always will be a suburban paper trying to be a big city paper (and failing).
Peace,
ANDEE
So, based on this fact, which he is supposed to be a knowledgeable and accurate subway reporter, is that Mr. Sanchez does not know how to read a subway map correctly and cannot be trusted to provide reliable information to it’s readers.
Better to back up someone you dislike with facts than an opinion.
I just remember it poped up a few days after someone here started a thread.
Jackson had a fire also? I know Intervale Ave had a bad one in the late 80's.
wayne
til next time
That was my favorite episode of Monster Garage!
Mark
wayne
When the current phase of the Manhattan Bridge project started, the B & D services were cut back to 34th Street. It seems that it would have made more sense to run the lines as far south as West 4th Street in order to maintain 6th Ave Express service between midtown and the Village. According to Peter's track maps, it looks like the necessary infrastructure is present at West 4th to turn the trains around. (The Grand St. Shuttle could have been cut back to Broadway-Lafayette to accomodate the express service at West 4th).
I realize that with the bridge project coming to completion in 2004 this is getting pretty close to being after the fact, but it is something that I've thought about.
Any ideas?
They don't want to deal with confused passengers.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
What really should've been done is to run the D to Delancey at night, and extend the J to CI via Brighton while an x-over was built between Bway-Lafyette and Grand Street during the nights, with a slow order during the day, until completed.
???
Who cares about confusion at night? That's when they do most GO's anyway.
David
Chris: The 1984 project was a quicky fix and only earned a small insert in the Summer 1983 Revision of the 1979 Map. Later closings earned detailed brochures and maps of their own.
Larry, RedbirdR33
6 AV:
Rush hour 168St-34St Express (on 6Av! north Local)
(D) All times 205St-34St Express Rush hour peak X Fordham-145
(F) except nights 179St-CI Local X FH-QP;Weekdays Parson-QP
Rush hour skip 169 St
(F) nights 57St/6-CI Local
(S) except nights 57St/6-Grand Local
(S) nights W4St-Grand
Broadway:
(B) Weekday 6AM-8PM QBP-CI Express skips DeKalb
Rush hour Ditmars-CI Express skips DeKalb
(B) Evening/Weekend 57St/7-CI Express stops DeKalb
(B) nights 36St-CI Shuttle
(D) All times 57St/7-CI Express skip-stop with Q
(N) All times Ditmars-CI Local Evening/night/weekend
skips City Hall,Cortland
Rector, Whitehall, Lawrence
& Court
Evening/weekend Express
Pacific-59
(Q) Weekday 7am-8pm 57St/7-BB Express skip-stop with D
(R) All times FH-95St Local
I believe it ran local in Queens (and at at least some times it ran all the way to Jamaica), but I'll let one of the experts verify.
No. The N ran to Queens weekdays only. Prior to the N/R swap of 5/87 the N ran express to 57th St only on weekends. The B and R both served 60th St. The N never ran regularly scheduled service to Jamaica. Weekend local stations on the Queens Blvd IND prior to the N/R swap was exclusively serviced by the G.
Would look nice on the subway map. :-)
But bad service for Jamaica - Local FH-QP
RedbirdR33@hotmail.com
Larry, RedbirdR33@hotmail.com
B trains ran between 36 Street and Coney Island during midnight hours.
B trains ran between 57 Street-7 Avenue and Coney Island as follows
1) via bridge,exp in Man and Bklyn am rush stbd,pm rush and wkdy eve ntbd
2) via tunnel making all local stops am rush stbd, pm rush and wkdy eves ntbd and all other times except midnights.
B trains between 168 Street and West 4 Street then light to 2 Avenue during rush hours
B trains between 57 Street-6 Avenue and 34 Street-6 Avenue during midnight hours
B trains between 57 Street-6 Avenue and West 4 Street then light to 2 Avenue all times except midnight hours.
B shuttle between Broadway-Lafayette Street and Grand Street on ntbd track at all times.
D trains between 205 Street and West 4 Street then light to Bway Lafayette St (stbd tk). All times
D 57 Street-7 Avenue to Brighton Beach or Coney Island via bridge at all times.
As a result of congestion at 57 Street-7 Avenue schedules were changed on or about October 14. B trains discharged at 57 Street and ran light to Beebe Avenue middle track, reverse and light back to 57 Street. B trains would now operate express northbound in Manhattan on weekdays.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Peace,
ANDEE
Mark
Favorite: Boston MBTA
And at the other end of the "Spectrum" (no pun intended) is SEPTA. Things just seem to be going from bad to worse in Philly. These guys make the MTA look like Mr. Clean when it comes to mismanagement and corruption. Too bad, too. I love some of their rail lines (69th St-Norristown P&W, and Doylestown Line).
SEPTA makes MTA look like Mr. Clean when it comes to station maintenance, too! The exceptions are the 2nd and 5th street MFL stations, whose floors have been blinding lately, but the rest of the system reminds me of a gas station men's room.
Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
I was impressed with the Whatcom County Transportation Authority in Bellingham, Washington when I was out there last year. This little town (~70,000) people manages to run a decent system of frequent buses that will get you just about anywhere in town. Bellingham is a college town, and I suspect that Western Washington University subsidizes it heavily, especially since the fare is only 50 cents and monthly passes are $15.
As for bigger systems...I tend to admire those systems that seem to have a boldness of vision (having a vision at all puts an agency far ahead of SEPTA). Dallas DART comes to mind, with its big ongoing expansion of rail in a city where Kar is King. Chicago's CTA seems to have a good vision with their circle line project. I can say the same thing for Portland's Tri-Met, with their streetcar and new light rail lines, plus the fact that they put bike racks in the trains, and have no problems with photography.
Customer service...When I was in Toronto I was incredibly impressed with the friendliness of TTC employees, but then that seemed to be the mood of the whole city.
Also, I like Buenos Aires Metrovia just for their cool website.
Mark
Back in 1997 or so, the STM decided that subway construction was move too slow, so now they are spending about US$300 million per year on construction right now. Currently, 24 km of lines are under construction. Between 2000 and 2020, their master plan calls for a total of 284 km of subway to be built, 44 km of airport express lines to connect two airports with downtown, and 300 km of BRT lines. Looking a their map with all the proposed stuff, I think only the BRT system seems a little too pie in the sky.
http://www.fta.dot.gov/brt/issues/pt3.html
<a href="http://www.fta.dot.gov/brt/issues/pt3.html">http://www.fta.dot.gov/brt/issues/pt3.html</a>
to get this:
http://www.fta.dot.gov/brt/issues/pt3.html
Mark
Mark
A convenient whipping boy, but better managed than most other transit systems. I was here in the mid-1980s, when the improvements were just starting, and again now, and the performance of the agency has been amazing.
Part of the credit goes to money -- the amount of state and local cash that has been invested in the system.
Part of the credit goes to the change in the city, with lower crime and more immigrants/new college grads to attract as riders.
Part of it is the retirement of the generation that ran the system into the ground in the 1960s and 1970s, and their replacment by new workers who never experienced not having to work.
But part of it is improved management. It could be better still, but at least there is an attitude that things are SUPPOSED to keep improving, unlike many other public agencies.
I'd put them a close second behind the hard working women and men of the Miami Valley Rail Authority.
Mark
I guess it has to be MTA/NYCT.
They have a great integrated network of subway and bus that does not penalize a person because they do not live close to a subway station.
They offer a wide range of farecards, including stored value and time based.
They actually have expansion plans in the works (if they get built is another issue).
Fairfield Area Rapid Transit - GO FART!
The structure of the Fulton L there was heavy enough to take subway equipment for a short distance, so it must have been storage for the R10 but still a pretty unique picture.
1. It was used on the #14-Broadway Brooklyn Local and is laid up to the evening rush.
2. It's really an "A" train that was inpatient to see what Lefferts Blvd. looked like before the connection was opened from Euclid Avenue.
3. It's looking for 76th Street.
I was only 4 years old in 1954 so I couldn't tell what went down.
I sort of remember that you had to pay another fare to go from the BMT to the IND.
Yes, and me and David Greenberger found it after much searching back in April. The stairways down to the closed mezzanine were actually under one of the stairways leading up.
Another pic of the exit
-William A. Padron
("Mr. R-10")
Trivia (trivium?)--this was a policy inherited by NYCTS from the IRT, which made the determination by its bankruptcy years that steel dust was as good a preservant as a paint, and loads cheaper!
If you don't already you should have a page showing the progression of that particular structure from the photo that Paul is referring to thru the soon to happen (???) connection change.
(Nevermind).
-William A. Padron
["Mr. R-10"]
How about it? Any other thoughts about helping my favorite line?
: )
Mark
Restore 4 tracks from end to end.
Convert Bay Parkway to an express stop (also renovate station. It may be too expensive, but it's an ideal location relevant to local stations in between.)
Renovate 8th Ave, New Utrecht Ave (as complex with 62nd st, upstairs), 18th Ave, Kings Highway, and Avenue U. Leave other stations on the timetable for last.
That's all I can suggest. You won't get your summer beach express trains, they belong on the Brighton Line, sorry.
Stage 1
Shut Down The Following Stations (Going Towards Coney Island):
8th Avenue
Fort Hamilton Parkway
18th Avenue
20th Avenue
Shut them down for 6-8 months, and do the following:
Tear Down the Canopy, tear down the supports, fix the tunnels walls, fix the stations entrances with new lighting, and a more friendly, clean atmosphere, redo the flooring (concrete) and station walls including the installation of new or rehabilitating mosaics. Installation of Wheelchair Ramps between Platform and Station House to make ADA accessible
Stage 2
Done After Stage 1 Completion, Same as Stage 1 but on Stations going towards Manhattan
Stage 3
Rehabilitation of New Utrecht/62nd Street Stations
Elevators Connecting the D Platform with the N/M platform, redoing the canopies of both station, making both stations clean, new tiling, new walls, new flooring, and new mosaics. Redo configure of the New Utrecht Station to an Express Station Configuration with 2 Island Platforms.
Stage 4
Shut Down of the 18th Avenue
20th Avenue
Bay Parkway
Kings Highway Stations (Going Towards Coney Island)
Shut them down for 6-8 months, and do the following:
Tear Down the Canopy, tear down the supports, fix the tunnels walls, fix the stations entrances with new lighting, and a more friendly, clean atmosphere, redo the flooring (concrete) and station walls including the installation of new or rehabilitating mosaics. Installation of Wheelchair Ramps between Platform and Station House to make ADA accessible
At Kings Highway, redo configure of the Station to an Express Station Configuration with 2 Island Platforms. and both platforms and station elevators are installed and entire station made ADA Accessible.
Stage 5
Same as Stage 4 except on Stations Going Towards Manhattan
Stage 6
Station Shutdown of Avenue U and 86 Street going in Both Directions
Tear Down the Canopy, tear down the supports, fix the tunnels walls, fix the stations entrances with new lighting, and a more friendly, clean atmosphere, redo the flooring (concrete) and station walls including the installation of new or rehabilitating mosaics. Installation of Wheelchair Ramps between Platform and Station House to make ADA accessible
Stage 7
Rehabilitation of Southbound Express Track and installation of new switches along the entire stretch of Sea Beach Line.
One possibility for changing certain stations to express would be to submerge the express tracks so there would be a two level station similar to IND central park west stations. They are all local, but Bergen Street on the F is a two level express stop.
Well, perhaps they could plant some poison ivy in your honor... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well they could do all of this:
-Restore the deactivated express track
-Rehab all stations [doing every other station starting from 8 Av then every other station s/b to CI first then n/b afterwards then start from Fort Hamilton then do the same format as noted above]
-Convert New Utrecht Av to an express stop [have to do lots of surveying first]
-Make section between 59 St and 8 Av a little faster
-Make section between 86 St & Coney Island faster & simpler
-New switches at Kings Highway
-Create ADA compliant stations [select stations]
Flatbush: The best thing that they could do to improve the Sea Beach Line would be to build another Brighton Line.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Well basically that's what it would be, a SECOND version of the Brighton line.
Being that the 7 train needed to leave Woodside in a hurry, the conductor probably did not want to confuse people by opening doors on the inbound side. That's the reason why only the outbound doors would only open so not to allow people on the Manhattan bound side to get back on the train and confuse them.
First, they should have made announcements on the train I was on that Woodside would be the last stop and to take the local at Junction Blvd.
The C/R cannot make the announcement until they reach Woodside, rush hour is always unpredictable. You might have to be turned halfway on your trip, but tower or command tells you to proceed normal when you get there.
Compare that to the (much better) Queens IND which has 3 different paths to Manhattan. So do most of the IRT lines out of Brooklyn (2,3,4,5) and the Bronx (2,4,5). And the BMT in Brooklyn. The 7 is a poorly planned line. It should have had an alternate route planned years ago. But that's pie in the sky, isnt it?
What about the L line? The J north of Broadway Junction? The Rockaways? The Lenox Invert in Manhattan? The West side IRT local between 137th st and Dyckman St? Aren't those lines mentioned above two tracks? If you get stuck on the two track portion, you have options (even in Queens). Get stuck at Broad Channel, well it's a bit difficult getting out since bus service is lousy at Cross Bay Blvd.
Not only not to confused them but no need to. All those passengers are presumably waiting for a manhattan-bound train, so why open on the Manhattan-bound side at all?
Yes, the 7 really must be the worst line in the system. I can't believe they haven't installed the magic platform conductor pixie dust that makes platform conductors appear whenever there are unexpected delays like they have on those other lines.
The way ridership keeps growing on the Franklin Ave Shuttle, the platforms should've been long enough to accomodate 4 car R68 train consists. 2 car lengths is not enough, try waiting at Botanic Garden, which feels more like the IRT side of the passageway at Atlantic Ave everyday.
As to the announcements, yes the TA's announcements have been historically poor -- but I think your expectations are far too high. You have to figure that for the first 10 minutes of most delays the concern is going to be how to get the train in question moving again.
People like to come on SubTalk and bitch that there was a delay in service and that there weren't good enough announcements. Apparently they seem to think that there was going to be some kind of announcement which magically conveys to them how they can get to their destination with no further delay.
In reality, the only announcement which could be made which is 100% truthful is:
"Attention passengers at 61 St. You are screwed. There is a train stuck at 5th Ave. and we're trying to clear it -- but we don't know how long it will take. After all, if we did it wouldn't be stuck. You could just enjoy the cool breezes and wait it out, or you could backtrack to 74th for the IND. But you'll be screwed there since all of NE Queens is now trying to jam down those escalators -- so you'll still be way late to work. Or you could go downstairs and take the LIRR -- fat lot of good that'll do you, since it only runs about every 15 minutes and we'll charge you about 5 bucks to dump you off at Penn Station only to pay another fare to get back on the subway. So face it -- you're screwed. Have a pleasant day and thanks for riding MTA NYC Transit"
CG
Packed Train pulls into station. Doors open/many on/many off/doors close/open/close/open but there's one door in the last car that doesn't close even though nobody's holding it (anymore). After 5 minutes of the dance and the usual kindergarten style threats conductor walks back determines that train has to be taken out of service. Discharges entire train and closes up manually. 20 minutes after pulling in, the train pulls out (and runs express to a yard or layup track -- leaving clear track ahead). Once the train behind it pulls in, the delay begins to clear up. Maybe there's a battery run involved, but the max delay to any one passenger is probably 25 minutes or so and other lines are relatively unaffected.
Should block tickets be issued in this situation? At the station where the train is being discharged? What about stations ahead or behind?
If you issue block tickets, do you risk sending thousands of people onto other already crowded lines -- thereby causing delays on those lines as well?
Obviously, each different delay/station/line/time of day combination has an optimal solution as to whether or not block tickets should be issued -- it's just that calculating that solution either at the time of the delay or before isn't very practical.
I think that -- like express trains -- people tend to overestimate the speed of alternate routes during a delay.
CG
In January, I was on a 5 train that terminated at 3rd Avenue because of a smoke condition further up the line. The rest of the line was shut down. There's no free crossover at 3rd Avenue; we needed block tickets even if we just wanted to backtrack. But the S/A wasn't authorized to distribute block tickets, so we just stood there, waiting. Eventually she got authorization and the handed them out. But just then, service was reinstated. But the S/A wasn't authorized to unlock the turnstiles, so we just stood there like fools, watching a train come and go. I don't know how this ended; a cop opened the service gate and let us all in.
A month or two ago, I was stuck in a mess at Euclid with no Manhattan-bound service due to switch problems at Hoyt. I was on a C train that went out of service before even going anywhere! There's a big transfer point one express stop up, but we needed block tickets to get there. Not only was the S/A not distributing block tickets, there was no indication to entering passengers that maybe they shouldn't enter fare control just yet.
One morning last year, I joined the tail end of a half hour gap in SB local service at 86th/Broadway. An express went by every few minutes, and more than a few of us wanted to walk to 96th, but when asked for block tickets, the S/A insisted that nothing was wrong.
And for those on strict schedules, who might as well go back home rather than show up very late, a block ticket is, in a way, a repayment of a wasted fare. (I once missed an hour appointment because my 1 train made an unexpected express run from 96th to 137th. Not much point in showing up 45 minutes late, so I went home and saved the block ticket. I still had to pay for the missed appointment.)
If nothing else, distributing block tickets would improve the customer's perception of service. The only thing worse than having no service is being trapped with no service.
With the bus service around the 7 line there is no need for a alternate route. Just be happy you was able to get to another subway line instead of the lucky souls who get stuck in no wheres land (The Rockaways. And the 7 isn't the worst subway line in the city. You just catch it at bad times.
What was your question again?
Something worse than ragging on LI Bus, I don't believe it!
At that point I would of just taken the Q32 into Manhattan or at least to the W; its not much better but beats waiting for the 7's to clear up. Seems like the 7 express heading into MAnhattan was cut short drastically since trains were turning on the express track at Woodside as you mentioned.
Unfortunately the 7's one good asset (not having to share with other lines) is also a big drawback. If a train gets stuck in between Queensboro and Times Square, there is no way to reroute service. Compare that to the (much better) Queens IND which has 3 different paths to Manhattan. So do most of the IRT lines out of Brooklyn (2,3,4,5) and the Bronx (2,4,5). And the BMT in Brooklyn. The 7 is a poorly planned line. It should have had an alternate route planned years ago. But that's pie in the sky, isnt it?
Now if the train got stuck in the Rockaways on the A for a extended period of time then there would be some serious delays, possibly leading to a shuttle bus. There are lots of plaes where there are only 2 tracks where service could easily get messed up. Be grateful that the 7 has three tracks [in the place where you got stuck at].
That "Book-And-Movie" is almost a REQUIREM for SubTALK residency.
--Mark
The casting of the original movie was absolutely brilliant, particularly Walter Matthau (a one of a kind, irreplaceable actor. You'll never see anyone like him again), but also Robert Shaw, Martin Balsam (no one like him ever again, either), and Jerry Stiller (who is now forever linked with the question of how the Yankees could have trade JAY BUHNER???????).
But if the tape ain't worn out yet, then there's probably not much reason to acquire the DVD. Although you still might want to ...
On a regular TV screen, yes. I was disappointed when I played it on a friend's six-foot-wide home theater screen; it gets a bit pixelated :). Also, sound is monaural only. Still a better choice than the tape, as there's no digitally-remastered THX version out there. Yet ;).
The original film was on theatrical 35MM anamorphic, monaural audio. Wasn't a whole lot that could be done, but they did manage to clean up the original. I saw the original go through the film gate doing summer relief at NBC many years ago and it was looking pretty long in the tooth then. The VHS release was OK (4:3 only) but wasn't all that terrific either - and on a biggie home theatre screen, VHS is just painful to watch. On my 25 inch ordinary talking lamp, looked pretty good. :)
Even better on my 21 :). But I got to see it in the THEATER way back in 2001, a rare 16mm print IIRC. Very nice :).
The book or the movie ARE worth the time. The BOOK though is MUCH better. :)
Chuck Greene
I have the original movie on both DVD and Video, but where can I get the book?
Jimmy
Jimmy
Amazon Has Used Copies of the book for sale, also the VHS (New & Used), DVD (New and Used), and Cd soundtrack (New And Used)
It's a 1972 map
It is 75 cents for Like New condition. For your referance the ISBN is 0-88411-6492
Chuck Greene
Jimmy
Jimmy
"You're a sick man, Rico."
Seroiusly, though: If you live in NYC check out the Strand Bookstore on Broadway and W. 10th. A few blocks from Union Square (where location shots for the chase sequence of the finale were done on the 4/5/6), this cavernous bookseller usually has a few copies.
In the book, the cops try to shadow Pelham's movements with Woodlawn 1-4-1 whose track is mined by Ryder. Also the hijackers all have much more character development in the book, with Ryder's experiences as a mercenary in detail. The device used to defeat the deadman's switch in the train is called the Gimmick.
In the movie, several car types of the 1970s can be seen, including all of the car types used for the recent SMEE trip, except for the WF's.
Finally, on payday at work, I still tell my crews, "The money has arrived! The money has arrived!"
Hey, don't forget the rest of the all-star cast, including Oscar Madison, Quint, Juror #1, Wilson, Marie Barone...
I remember towards the end the "bad guys" rigged up this tubular "thing" to the front of the train. I think I even remember one of them commenting, "It fits like a glove". That was what allowed to to run away unattended....
a) What the heck was that?
b) Is it real?
There *WAS* a way to make Pre-war cars run away, and a rather easy task at that. It can ALSO be done with SMEE's, and other dual handle cars EASILY. Joystickers, NOT so easy.
And no, NOBODY's getting the dirt. Nobody. But I *do* know how it could be done, as does any current or former motorman/woman. As to what they did in the movie, enjoy the action, enjoy the interaction of the characters, enjoy the tunnel shots. If you're planning on taking a train, nothing in that film will work. :)
JONN
Then why do most trains not announce the Q and W trains and still announce that the F is on 63rd Street, among other things?
(Or program correctly the first time around, for that matter. The R-142 announcements were incorrect the very first late night they ran on the 2.)
We're talking a few keystrokes here. It should be sufficiently easy to reprogram the announcements for a weekend GO.
you,ll be seeing alot of those on the N and Q line,how many are left
J,M,Z lines.
i guess someone must,ve forgot to chagne the rollsign,are they going to bring back oragne Q or stay with the yellow Q.
R40M on the N
the 5 train that says bowling green on the front gotta have more then
10 cars,looks like 12 or more.this pics taken in the unionport yard,
right?and the R62 in the backround,is it still there.and if they have
it,why?it,s in bad shape.
R62 and redbirds,funny huh.
til next time
til next time
No, that's Concourse yard. You can see the Kingsbridge Armory in the background.
Peace,
ANDEE
By Joie Tyrrell
Staff Writer
July 10, 2003, 4:26 PM EDT
With a rainy month and a price increase, both Long Island Bus and the Long Island Rail Road saw a drop in ticket sales in May when the fare hike first went into effect, officials said at a meeting yesterday.
"We're seeing the impact of two major factors -- the weather and the fares," LI Bus President Neil Yellin told a Metropolitan Transportation Authority committee. Bus and subway fares rose from $1.50 to $2 May 4. LI Bus ridership dropped 4.4 percent from May of last year.
LIRR spokesman Brian Dolan did not pinpoint any exact reason for the decline, saying that railroad officials "will be analyzing that by quarter. It's difficult to tell from one month so we will be watching that closely."
The MTA voted to raise LIRR fares by 25 percent. The new rates went into effect May 1.
For the railroad, overall ticket sales are down 4.9 percent compared to May of last year with rush-hour ticket sales dropping 5.1 percent. Ticket sales for the non-rush hour declined 4.9 percent.
"Spring was not a pleasant time to travel for leisure activities," Dolan said. So far year-to-date ticket sales are down 3.5 percent below 2002. May revenue, however, was up 19 percent due to the fare increase.
"Our sales numbers have been declining all year; we believe that is generally related to the overall state of the economy," Dolan said. "As the next several months unfold, we'll be able to make a better decision. We budgeted for the fare increase but again it's just one month."
Jim McGovern, president of the Long Island Rail Road Commuters Council, said the economy also has played a role in the ticket sale decline. He doesn't predict any impact on service.
"The increase in fare revenue will certainly enable the railroad to operate at its current level of service" he said. "I don't think there is any danger of any cuts."
But Peter Haynes, president of another rider's advocacy group, said the decline comes on the heels of a continuous downward trend.
"They lost riders last year," said Haynes, president of the LIRR Commuters Campaign. "It is not a good sign at all. If they had booming ridership and it dipped five percent, I don't think it would nearly as disconcerting."
The MTA and transit advocates are awaiting a court decision on whether the higher fares will stand. A judge had ordered a rollback on the fares after the Straphangers Campaign had filed suit. But the MTA appealed.
Copyright © 2003, Newsday, Inc.
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=150151&category=Business&BCCode=BUSINESSMAIN&newsdate=7/10/2003
Highest unemployment rate since Raygun (20 years!). After all, you don't need to ride a train or bus if you're out of work or take an excursion train if you're tightening your belt out of fear of being the NEXT round of layoffs. :(
P.S. Anyone hazard a guess on the location? WMATAGOAUGH cannot answer.
AEM7
If that is your picture, it is one nice shot!
Yeah, it was my picture. The damned autofocus mis-focused at the last minute so I didn't get the WMATA train quite in the right position. The SOUNDER train was running late and the VRE train was on-time, and as I lined up to take the shot I noticed the WMATA train in the background is whining up the hill so I took the pic sooner than I had anticipated. When I came home I was like "oh damn, I snapped too early -- the two trains aren't close enough", then I remembered about the WMATA train and I was like, wow, that worked well!
AEM7
BTW, how far north does VRE run?
Washington Union Station, District of Columbia. :-P
Mark
According to their consist page, they still have 3 of the Bombardier Sounder trainsets.
Or could this be a clue?
I wish I had gotten a pic of an Amtrak train through there, but on never showed up and I couldn't be bothered to wait long enough for it. Since Dave Gunn came in the consists have gone boring -- no more boxcars and baggage cars, now it's locomotive, three coaches, cafe, and one single catch-all freight car at the very end. And they are all fixed consists now, like European railroads.
AEM7
I don't care much about Amtrak alone, but multimodalism is always neat. Last month I almost got a shot of a Metro-North train, a 1 train, a bus, cars, pedestrians, and a Circle Line boat, but the Metro-North train was late, the sidewalk on that side of the bridge is closed for construction, and I don't think any 1 trains passed by while the boat was in view.
David J. Greenberger's clue is right on though.
John
Image 24393 is harder for me to try and identify, but I think it is
Gates Avenue, looking west from the eastern end of the eastbound platform, rather than Hewes Street. The cornice lines of the buildings in this image are nothing like the cornice lines of the
buildings in image 24000, taken from roughly the same vantage point
at Hewes Street. The double vertical line at the vanishing point of
image 24393, rather than the Williamsburg Bridge, as it would be if
this were Hewes Street, could be part of the Broadway-Myrtle complex. Also, in image 24393, above the train on the middle track, near the
vanishing point, the previously mentioned long building with the
barely sloped roof and the pole at the cornice or sidewalk end, is
faintly visible. This building is visible near the vanishing point of image 4449, Kosciuszko St. looking east, and must therefore be on the north side of Broadway between the Kosciuszko St. and Gates Avenue
stations. That is why I think image 24393 is Gates Avenue. Unfortunately, I don't see an overlap of the cornice lines in this image, and in image 2169, which has been positively identified as
Gates Avenue for at least the past 13 months.
I am not totally sure about 24393 either. I mostly think it is Gates
Avenue looking northwest mostly because of the long slightly sloped
roof with pole at cornice building faintly visible above the train
on the middle track. Your point about building demolition along the
Broadway el is also a good one.
Building 1 is westernmost, and has a long, slightly sloped roof line.
It is above the middle of the train on the center track in image 24393. It is near the vanishing point in image 24000, between the
Williamsburg Savings Bank dome and the front of the westbound (Manhattan-bound)train.
Building 2 is right above the left-most car of the Manhattan-bound
train in image 24393. It is above the 3rd car from the rear of the
Manhattan-bound train in image 24000.
Building 3 is right above the front end of the middle car ( # 6348)of the Manhattan-bound train in image 24393. It is above the 2nd car from
the rear of the Manhattan-bound train in image 24000.
Building 4 is right above the rear end of the middle car ( # 6348)of the Manhattan-bound train in image 24393. It does not appear in image
24000. It would be above the front end of the last car of the train in this image (subject car # 6309) if it were there when the photo
was taken, but is not, because it appears to have been demolished before the photo was taken.
Thank you, GP38 Chris, and all you other readers for your attention.
My apologies, webmaster, for the confusion.
Thank you, also, GP38 Chris, for the "Broadway Jamaica Ridin'" photos
from your 2 July 03 ride, that you posted. Did you also post a message yesterday (Thursday July 10th) between about 3 and 4 p.m, about Ridgewood movie theaters ? If so, I have a reply.
Did you also post a message yesterday (Thursday July 10th) between about 3 and 4 p.m, about Ridgewood movie theaters ? If so, I have a reply.
Yeah, I did, and I'd love to hear what you have to say about them.
Park was eliminated, and Flushing, Lorimer & Hewes became side platform stations in 1916.
And for the 1 billionth time they are R26's, so now it won't have to be brought up again [hopefully].
AEM7
Jesse James never did it like this!
David
The new facility will occupy a good part of the eastern section of the yard. The MTA owns the land just past the end of the exisiting yard and will be putting in new tracks (including a loop track).
That means a lot of pilings going in.
David
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=150281&category=&BCCode=&newsdate=7/10/2003
Once the contracts EXPIRE however, you can COUNT on the state doing away with it, even for station cleaners since it was the STATES that pushed hard for this as well as banks. Therefore, when the NEXT TWU contract is negotiated, overtime pay can be expected to not be "on the table" at all. Same for other state employees when their unions negotiate once this takes effect.
But hey, I'm sure there will be bonuses for the execs once again, and of course those dividends. But yeah, this IS outrageous. Slavery is back, and this time it's "equal opportunity" and based solely on economic status rather than skin color alone. :(
Never happen.
"Same for other state employees when their unions negotiate once this takes effect."
There are numerous state and city employee's who currently do not get paid overtime because they are concidered managierial or professional positions
The state attorney general's office is one example. The rules changes do not mean as much as many on this board and the biased article implies
I have mentioned before especially when overpaid station agents were complaining that they were underpaid, the suits that you all complain about and should pay more in taxes do not recieve overtime. Neither do many computer programers etc. Generally when you can somewhat control the pace of doing your work and you are a professional, you do not recieve overtime.
I'm sure it's the same in many OTHER agencies, and in other states as well. It was the states that sought this relief, along with Wal*Mart and a number of banks and brokerages. This was a bill that the NYS Division of the Budget and Paturkey's office were pressing HARD for. And while it may or may not affect cleaners, conductors and operators for a while, you can BET that TSS' and other "management titles" will go straight for it. I've been watching this bill, and the "congressional intent" messages were that *ANYONE* who "deals directly with customers" would not be required to be paid overtime (where this came from is beyond me, but it was IN there) ... thus, "Station Agents" owing to this definition would not be entitled.
Makes for some pretty serious abuse possibilities - Mandatory overtime would be the first thing I see coming - train operators REQUIRED to go for 12 hour shifts (I don't believe a similar to FRA rule exists for mass transit similar to what FRA's "drop dead" rules provide) and many other potential abuses, all for "straight pay" without penalty pay.
But REST ASSURED, in MANY places overtime is paid to the white collar workforce. You might want to have a word with YOUR employer if that's not the case for you. I don't get any overtime where I am now, so this isn't a personal issue for ME. But I thought others might be interested in knowing of their impending next shafting.
But yeah, this is a GRAND hosing - worse than the Health bill, worse than the "we'll help NYC get past 9/11" bullshirt that raised OUR taxes through the ROOF and all the rest that comes with our commander in THIEF. What amuses me the most is your typical republican lives in a "manufactured home" near a swamp, chews REDMAN, and actually BELIEVES that these schemes are going to make them richer than eBay. Gack! Just wait until this goes into effect and they get their biweekly net paycheck from Benton, Ark. (Wal*Mart HQ for those who don't recognize the town) :)
Funny, though, each time I had to work overtime in the last nine years, I got paid for it.
Gee-whiz! Shazam! How did that happen???
Well, I'd guess if people stopped all this pissing, moaning, and whining, and blaming the Republican boogey-men for everything that went wrong with their lives, they might be able to accomplish something.
But, it's always easier to whine about the raw deal you get in your life, instead of actually moving one's lazy ass, and fixing your lot in life.
I guess it's one of two ways to improve one's immediate situation: whine about being a victim. Have people feel sorry for you, and offer some words of comfort and understanding. Even though you still get shafted at work, at least everyone says nice things to you, because they feel some compassion for your miserable plight.
The other one, of course, is to do something besides complaining. That's obviously much more difficult than just sitting around and complaining. Not everyone's up to it, I suppose.
Nope, I'm not worried about this new law that came out of the Beltway. Not at all. It doesn't affect me directly at all.
I'll let you in on a little secret. The trick is to build your career in such a way so that you are the one who's mostly responsible for the direction where life takes you. Not some politician in Washington. Not some politician in Albany. You. It's your life. It's up to you to control it.
But, I guess, not everyone can do that. But everyone can whine. I think I'll go and reinvest my profits from buying shares of adult diaper manufacturers. I'll buy a few shares of Kleenex now, with all this loot.
YOU are the one who should be answers this question. Nobody has the answer to this question except for you. You are the only person in the world who is in charge over your life. Not George Bush. Not George Pataki. Not Sally Struthers.
Stop asking other people for answering to your life's question. That's your job, and nobody else's. If you really want answers to these kinds of questions, call the Psychic Friends Network.
Yeah, I'm sure that George Bush has a few hours a day set aside for the specific task of making sure that you earn only $8,000 a year. Sure. I have no problem believing that.
I recall that nine years ago my former boss wanted me to work twelve hours a day, unpaid overtime, to launch a system into production. For some strange reason I did not think to blame Bill Clinton for the predicament I found myself in. It just never crossed my mind.
Instead pissing, bitching, and moaning, I did three things:
1. I figured out how I ended up in this predicament, and what I needed to do in order to fix it.
2. I told my former boss to go and pleasure himself.
3. I followed the game plan in item #1.
And that was the last time I was ever asked to work unpaid overtime. Never happened again. And it will never happen again, as long as I can help it.
***THAT*** is why I'm in the condition I'm in. When it catches up to YOU, I'll break out some kleenex too. :)
Spare the expense. You won't ever catch me bitching about it. Did I happen to mention that I'm having some difficulty finding jobs in New Yawk? There are some jobs here, but not a lot. After religiously scanning the job boards, I see that more jobs are available in mid-north Jersey, but I can't commute there right now.
Do you know what I'm doing right now? I'm moving to bleeping Jersey!!! I spent the last four months of my life literally looking at every place that's up for sale in certain strategic areas which: A) Are convenient for public transit commute to NYC, and B) Are convenient for commuting by car to a job somewhere where I see a bunch of jobs listed in the papers. In the last couple of years many businesses have slowly been defecting (hee-hee, I originally wrote "defecating" here, but caught it right before posting, even though "defecating" would make more sense context-wise) from NYC over to NJ, obviously due to cost factor-related issues. I'm beginning to see the effects of that right now. So, what am I doing about it? Am I bitching about whatever politician I feel is responsible for the high cost of doing business in NY? No. I'M MOVING!!!
Gee -- what a novel concept! If there aren't any jobs where you live, then you MOVE!!! Golly-shazam! What will they think of next...
Oh, and for chrissakes, put your head on and figure out why in hell your tax bill is twelve grand. Don't ask me, I don't know why. You tell me. You live over there, not me. It's your tax bill, not mine.
Since I've been looking at real estate prices in Jersey, I can tell you that you need to have property appraised over a million dollars before you get a tax bill of that size. And I understand that Jersey taxes are higher, on average than New York's.
Nobody has any business living in a multi-million dollar mansion if they're only making $8,000? Whose fault is that??? Did George Bush imprison you in your castle, or something?
JUST REMEMBER ... that all the violations of the consitution YOUR boy put into effect will HOLE in the NEXT administration. Oh, the joy of declaring you ALL "terrorists" and "taking you OUT." Black helicopters, they're not Clinton's anymore.
REMEMBER WACO, We'll FIND you. :)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Democrates can be fun people too:-)
So can Republicans
And if you can believe it, we both admitted there is some validity in the positions of the other political partie's positions:-)
I honestly most people can see the other party's positions and can debate openly in a friendly manner. It's only on talk radio and the TV News networks where there is so much hatred for the other side, but that's what sells advertising time!!!
No. life has just been SERIOUSLY sucking since MOST of our former business came from "old Europe" where privacy and security concerns are REAL, and folks there remember the horrors of yer "big one, dubyadubya eye eye" ... and the various death squads that rose in between. Europeans are FAR more "interactive" with what they decide to buy than Americans, whose idea of quality is whether Franklin Mint makes it or if it's on their home page on AOL right there with the OTHER 200 popups. :(
But in OTHER parts of the world, where "free" isn't as important as "WORKS", we'd made our living. When Shrub did his "old Europe" thing with Rummy and blew off "de Krauts" and "de Frogs", we made a pretty fair living - like ANY "small business," not great, but not BAD either. Once brainboy pythed off the entire planet though, America was subjected to a WORLDWIDE boycott (highest unemployment in 20 years right now, but Shrub ain't got a CLUE) ... that HURT immenesely.
Lemme put it to you THIS way - The FRENCH offered us $100,000 to move there - they're customers ... the CHINESE offered us $50,000 and they would give us a building. Other nations, hearing of the situation, have offered us a smaller amount, all because they use our stuff for their MILITARY. And they've inspected us enough to detrmine that we ain't doing anything "sneaky" like the "major names" in the security business. Even got an offer from RUSSIA where our internal encryption code would allow us to make a KILLING financially, selling to Al Qaeda and others needing the highest quality of what we do.
Alas, Nancy and I *LOVE* living in upstate New York and would PREFER to remain here ... but we're getting screwed in 360 different directions. And yes, we've even been contacted by North Korea and Iran. If SHRUB is what America's all about, it's SERIOUSLY been making me wonder. Should I RETAIN the moral values our customers have been guaranteed since our inception in 1995, or should I do the "republican thing" and move to China, sell our stuff to North Korea and chuckle in delight as Chicago disappears under a mushroom cloud? :(
Bad economies CAUSE that kind of thought among true entrepeneurs ... that's why 95% of what's on the shelf in your local store comes from CHINA, or VIETNAM. America? Love it or leave it? It's been given a LOT of thought in this house lately. :(
I think Pyongyang has a subway that you could railfan ...
Terrorists 12
US PATRIOTS 0
To paraphrase Chief Edward Crocker, FDNY, 1899-1910:
I have but one ambition in this world, and that is to be an EMT.
To some, the profession may appear to be a lowly one.
But we who know the work an EMT has to do consider this a noble calling.
The nobility of the occupation thrills us,
and inspires us to deeds of great daring;
Even of supreme sacrifice.
In other words, this is what I do, and NYC will always be the place in which I do it. Bush and Co. are, however, removing my disposable income, with which I might have made consumer-goods purchases. All that extra $$$ can't help our economy if it ain't there...I won't move away, but I won't spend above necessity, either.
I suspect thousands of transit workers, who, like me, want nothing more than to work in their "noble calling", that is, NYCT, feel the same as I do...
"America is no longer a world leader, it is a has been."
Now, in many many other nations, to make such a statement can endanger your life. Could this be one of the reasons why the emigration rate outta here is basically negative nil? I say, if yu really feel that way, analyze the world data, zero in on possible "other places" to inhabit, and go inhabit them. Thank you, the rest of us got work to do.
That's what happens when you live in a town where you can marry your cousin.
The biggest flaw in marx's ttheory is that it totaly ignored human nature of people who need motivation to and something to live for
Once the issue of putting food ont he table is met humans tackle the next problem up the ladder which is the greater issue of happiness.
marx's assumes that as long as people are fed and givin somethng to do they will be happy.
With no incentive to work harder, a lack of inovation occurs and the quaility of services and life declines and little progrees is made in society
The board of ed is a perfect example. Some teachers with tenure loose the drive to work hard. with no threat of being fired except killing or molesting a student, these teacher exist driving down the quaility of education for our children. The principla is powerless as to motivate the individual as no matter what he/she does the offending teacher still gets paid
Leadership, however, is another thing. There have been times in America’s history when it has clearly been a world leader, and has been respected as such. There have been times in America’s history when America has been extremely isolationist.
Then there is the present, when America wants to be a world leader, but has unfortunately come off looking like a big schoolyard bully.
John
See, I'm just thinking that it's probably less of a "...wants to be..." and more of a "has to be" thing. If you think of what "America" means, that is, the implied concepts of individual freedoms within a law-abiding matrix, it's clear that anybody else can emulate this system. Nobody can stop them from doing so. But it is so obvious that many many nations don't have the opportunity or, more likely, the will to accomplish this. So instead they watch like vultures every move we make and connive and scheme in the dark like thieves in the night.
You can lambaste this country all you want. But show me any other paradigm to follow that has been proven so damn right for so long. Isn't that the most honest way to look at it? Would you be willing to emigrate to any other country?
Sure. Assuming the ability to earn enough to maintain a similar lifestyle, I could live easily in Canada, Great Britain, or any of the European Common Market countries, and probably in Australia or New Zealand.
Tom
Nothing personel, but the above nation make it hard for non-citzens to accept jobs unless thier is a true need
If these rules were enforced here, there would be far less job shortages where illegal immigrants steal good paying jobs from legal reidents of our city
The construction industry is a prime example as is the resturant industry.
It is not so much the good paying jobs that illegal immigrants are taking. It is the poor paying jobs that the employers claim Americans do not want. The truth of the matter is that they could find Americans to take those jobs if they paid more. However, employers are quite happy to keep the employment laws weak, so they can pay low wages and get rid of troublemakers who want things such as overtime or safe working conditions by dropping a dime to immigration on them.
Tom
That is not always the case.
Construction jobs that pay between $25-60 a hour are being filled with illegal immigrants making $50-$150 a day
Employers often prefer to fill a job with an eager immigrant than a lazy former welfare receipient that is mad at the world and has NO work ethic because he knows the govenment will bail them out
There was a construction accident back in 200o where a small apartmetn builing under developments floors collapsed while a few mexican laborers poured one of the cement floors(the cause of the acccident was not the mexican laborers buy rather smaller then rewuired steel beams) The powerful hisidic developer all but stoped DOI's case at the pushing of the local concilman who delivered the hisidic community to guiliani.
It was not until a secound collapse that the case was procecuted. these apartmetns were selling for $300k a peice with the cost of union labor factored in.
Uh huh. There ya go. So...what percentage of those countries you mentioned offer the majority of those citizens the opportunity to do so, at least to the equivalent of what "enough" is here. Greater than 50%? What exactly would you be giving up as a new citizen of that country? How about the tax situation?
See? It probably isn't anywhere near similar.
Unfortunately, the reality is less than that ideal. There have been times in recent history where America has not lived up to its goals. Japanese-American internment? McCarthy?
I would say, in all honesty, that I am an expatriate Briton living in America. Britain has its own, different, skeletons: Profumo, Burgess/Philby/McClean/Blunt.
And I’m voting with my feet: I chose to come from Britain to the USA. I am still here. However, if it were not for some personal reasons, (I am the only relative of a 76-year old Aunt who is here), I would strongly consider returning to the UK.
I can only hope that in 2004, with a change in leadership, that America again lives up to the ideals on which it was founded.
John
In THIS aspect, I've learned AWESOME respect for tht sheer quality, evasiveness (not a ONE is successfully snared by Antivirus, not ONE) and just plain STONES they have when the implant on systems, PARTICULARLY when the hit Win2000 and XP "servers" ... wowsers. A long time ago, we were literally headed to raid the DEPENDS aisle when a binder/encrypter called "Digital Spawn" ... some early betas were released, but they were more hosed than XPee. :)
Bottom line, NEVERMIND the dragon clips ... beware CHINESEHACK! Heh. (damned sure makes ME work for a damned "living".
Is that what the Broadway el is being called these days? ;^)
Don't be deceived by what's for the most part just window-dressing. Sure, Shanghai's full of skyscrapers, so's Guangzhou (or whatever Canton is called these days), but go not too far out of either city and you'll be in villages where daily life hasn't changed significantly in 500 years. I read not too long ago that almost half of the people living in China have never seen a foreigner in person! China's modern aspect is a mile wide and an inch deep. Other Asian countries have the same sort of superficial development, albeit to a lesser extent.
Not unlike the US of the early to mid 20th century where the west of the mississippi was largely farms and the east coast contained all the facctories
1) A population large enough to buy products produced in large mass produced quantitities allowing companies to survive even if foreign demand subsides
2) A Large willing workforce the is willing to do what it takes, study as much as it takes to get the job done. It was the american frounteir never quit attitude that propelled us over the socialistic societies of europe into the worlds most dominiante power
In the US especially in cities like NY, a socialistic society has emeged where people make excuses for people and don't force people to earn thier own way, sink or swim. Two generations of missguilded welfare programs originally concieved as a ways to smooth over the rough spots providing assistance to get people back on thier feet have turned into permenant assistance which prevent people from taking the initive to swim
Unions that are needed have overstepped thier boundries from their origins as ensurers that employers such as FORD motor which was working it's workers to the bone did not excessivly mistreat it's workers to organizations in some cases that want to be co-ceo or in the case of the UFT(which I am a memember) co-chancelors of the school system and have become politcal organizations wjere union leaderships lives it up on the high life at the expense of the workers they represent
Housing programs that have sent the price of housing in NYC through the roof especially section 8 and scatter site programs where govenement artificially drives the price of apartmetns up by providing people with money to match the landlords asking price. If noone can afford the landlords asking price, he needs to lower his price until someone can afford it. Housing prices in manahattan south of 96th street are down this year by 15% because of low demand.
Poorly written rent control laws that allow renters to sublease out thier apartemtns at a profit while landlords need to raise the price of decontroled apartmetments in order to stay afloat. Rent control laws have decreased the supply of affordable housing pushing the price of remaing housing higher
An educational systems that did not adapt to the changing world. A system that took for granted our current prosperity. It was ok not to challenge students at a young age when 3/4 of the population would end up working in a factory, construction or farming which did not need a strong command of math and science. Todays students need to compeate with students all over the world. Students in china and india where people are much poorer realize that they need to bust thier butt to learn math, sciencce, english and computer technology or risk starving to death. In china people sell thier blood and organs just to put food on the table.
In this country advocates cry that we are working our children too hard. This is not just a problem in poor communities but in middle class communities as well. More then half the students in science and engineering programs at major universities are not american citizens. 3/4 of the students were not born in the US. The days of partyng your way through college on some BS liberal arts degree are over. The computer science program I attended at SUNY Stonybrook required 25-30 hours while the english program at SUNY StonyBrook required 5-10 hours a week of homework. English program 95% american born students. Computer science 25% american students, 10% granduated with CS degree
We need to shape our act up in this country. Too many young people are educated by MTV and not by the school systems. This will lead to our downfall. Children from families with strong parents who make sure thier child stays clear of the MTV and WWE view of the world will suceed. Most other's will fail.
Money needs to be diverted from wastefull governement spending such as keeping unneeded s/a on duty, traffic checkers and dispatchers which are no longer needed and put into education and scientific reaearch
The funny part is that many of the scientists employed by the govenment are not us citizens. They are chinease and indian
The cable guy just rang my bell and rushed the post
Not all. Chinatown in Manhattan, and probably many of its counterparts elsewhere, is a very poor neighborhood. Chinese immigrants in NYC have lower average incomes than Haitian immigrants.
The NY times had a good article a few months back stating that many chinease once they save a bit of money head out to towns without chinease resturaunts to persue the american dream
His family worked thier ass off to get him a computer so that he could study computer science.
Never a complaint. He was happy to be in a place where if he worked hard he could earn a nice living for his family
In addtion many of my freinds from brooklyn tech who lived in china town, dirt poor, parents worked in sweat shops are doing quite well
The statistics of wages in chinatown are misleading becasue as soon as someone gets thier feet under them they move to a better area replced with the thousands of new immigrants that arrive daily.
NYC is becaoming one big new immigrant reception area. Middle clas people are being forces out by hight taxes and the jobs that move becase of them leaving a smaller and smaller number of people to pay the bill while the advocacy groups presure the city to give out more public assitance.
The NYTIMES reported yeaterday that NY state is the easiest state in the union to get welfare bennifites or public assistance attracting thousands of out of state people every year
This got to stop
Old, old, old news.
It is up to thier family to remind them of where they came from and not to allow them to fall into the traps success.
Some will inevitably get lazy and fat on the lamb of success. IF you study the plights of large family run coorporations, one of the biggest problems is keeping the next generation focused on striving foward.
It is a natural cycle seen throughout the history of the world. A new society rides to become the most dominant, stayts there for a period of time and then falls as they become lazy and then are taken over by a more hungry society.
We have the bennifit of history book telling us the perils of success. It is clear as to what needs to be done. The flight of IT jobs overseas is the result direct result of our failure to train our own people to work in the feild. The importion of foreign labor from india(nothing against indian people) has resulted in coorporate americas comfort with outsourcing. The comfort level is a direct result of having to outsource some as a result of a severe worker shortage
It is not too late to reverse the tide but a sea change has to occur in the political ranks. Bloomber took a good first step wiping out much of the beurocracy at the board of ed. The principle at my school thinks the new Middle school math program is too hard because the kids coming into middle school are so poorly prepared in grade school. Many children in this country are completly unaware of the challenges that lie ahead and what needs to be done NOW in grade school and middle school in order to prepare themselves for the future. The summer math program for which I am teaching in where most students failed the standardize math exam with a 0 or 1 on a scale of for are not lost causes. In the two weeks they have been in my class they have come a long way. I just wonder what the teachers during the regualar school year were doing
The same is said about rich families. The first generation knows poverty and overcomes it with hard work for the money and saves and invests it wisely. The second generation has seen how his father worked and has healthy respect for what money can do and manages it well. The third generation has known nothing but wealth and luxury from birth and begins to waste and lose the inherited wealth.
Tom
This is known as the "stupid grandson" scenario. Seagram Corporation is a perfect example.
You are correct. The 21st Century BC is a Chinese one.
AD is all American.
Not unlike Sea Cliff
At the end of the war, the USA was in a position to pour funding into Western Europe under the Marshall plan as the infrastruture of the USA had not been damaged during WWII. Keep in mind that, excluding Pearl Harbor, not one enemy bullet hit the USA. Compare this with the state of the USSR after WWII. It's infrastructure was heavily damaged by the years of war, and the Soviets suffered casualties that dwarfered the USA's. 10 million were killed just during the seige of Stalingrad. And virtually all the means of production of the USSR were packed up and moved east of the Ural montains to avoid the German attack.
When you put the outcome of the cold war in a little prospective, I think a fair minded person would have to say the Soviet Union did a hell of a job just competiting.
I'm not an anti-American, I just wanted to add a little historical background to the debate.
And then there was the thousand-day siege of Leningrad, in which some of the dead were "recycled" as food for the living.
Uh, aren't you forgetting some small military actions which the Western Allies were involved in in North Africa, Sicily, and Italy? (He asked sarcastically)
My man point was that the Soviet Union suffered from the ravages of the war being fought on their soil, something the USA didn't have to deal with. Had WWII ravaged the infrastructure of America the way it did that of the USSR, I believe the cold war would have run a different course.
It is true that the battles in Italy were some of the fiercest in the war, but they were relatively small and weren't that important to the outcome of the war, but were a great waste of Allied manpower due to the fact that the geography and topography of the "soft underbelly of Europe" greatly aided the defenders
Military historians generally agree that the Germans did not fortify the monastery at Monte Cassino, which was used by civilian refugees during the early fighting, but once the Americans reduced it to rubble with their air attacks (after warning the civilians to leave), the Germans moved into the rubble in force, and the rubble of the 15 ft. thick walls proved to be a formidable fortification.
Tom
That means nothing. The governments are funding the world’s tallest building crap. The truth is that these buildings are 3/4 empty.
The problem in this country is we no longer have the talent to innovate in new technologies. The local political and union leaders don't realize that the US niche in this world is intellectual knowledge. Our leadership over the last century was based on creating and deploying new technologies to keep us ahead of the curve.
Our local representatives do everything they can to obstruct the deployment of new technology. The station agents provide security argument is a perfect example. Another is the efforts by the union 40 years ago to stop manufactures from installing new equipment that reduced the labor intensiveness of some manufacturing processes. The end result was the loss of many manufacturing jobs to the south
I know this is off topic but are you interested in having some cold ones, hamburgs and dogs with a fellow talker (and his wife) from Altamont? I know you are going thru some tough times. If I can help we're here.
But you're just a couple of miles from here!
I know this is off topic but are you interested in having some cold ones, hamburgs and dogs with a fellow talker (and his wife) from Altamont? I know you are going thru some tough times. If I can help we're here.
If YOU want to live the rest of your life hiding in shadows, and running for cover every time you hear something in the air, and preaching doom and gloom to anyone who'd listen, that is certainly your privilege; however I am really not interested in hearing it. I've been hearing the same doom-and-gloom speech (with only cosmetic variations) from various people for over a decade now, and happily ignoring all of it.
Me, I prefer to maintain an optimistic outlook on life. I'll just do the best I can, no matter what the circumstances are; grab a railfan window whenever one's available; and ignore the doom-and-gloom/professional-victim crowd.
You have to understand, to the typical, provincial-thinking, world-ends-at-the-Hudson Manhattanite, moving to New Jersey is akin to the pioneers of the 1800's setting out on the Oregon Trail for the frontier.
Wrong. Equalized tax rates in the fifty-three townships of Monmouth County, New Jersey ranged from 0.933 to 4.046 in 2001 (equalized rate is computed by taking the assessed rate, adjusted for average percentage of true value in the assessment) - my own township, Eatontown, had an assessed rate of 2.982 that year, with an equalized rate of 2.737. So, in my town, a house with 12K in taxes would be worth (actual value, not appraised) just over 438K. (There are only a few houses in town in that price bracket, however... most are under 200K.) And most rates are in that bracket. Deal, where the adjusted rate is 0.933, has very few homes below the million dollar mark (average valuation is $1.6 million), and since there are very few children who attend public school living there it doesn't have the expense of a public school system (it's far cheaper to send the half-dozen children to an adjacent town and pay tuition).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I lived in that third world country for over 30 years.
See the problem of paying people that are no longer needed such as station agents, traffic checkers and most dispatchers at NYCT is a higher tax bill which forces companies with option to mover where it costs them less to operate. Many companies have choosen NJ where the cost of operating is sometimes as much as 30% less
Meanwhile are local political idiots with their big salaries "fight for the average NYer" by preventing the mta form reducing costs that are causing higher taxes and middle class new yorkers to move out of state. 3/4 of the people living in my neighborhood have moved out of the city following thier jobs. Living in Marine Park, our neighborhood is a s suburban as it gets in the 5 boroughs. People left because their companies they worked for moved out to LI or NJ due to the high taxes taking the middle class operations positions with them
Bill
The answer is quite simple actually - I've paid what taxes I *could* aand HAVEN'T paid the remainder. THAT'S why I'm up against the wall now. I owe the county, I owe the school district, the feds and the state. THAT'S the problem.
Back when Clinton was in office, it was easy to do in excess of $100K a year. I don't get paid by the hour, I get paid $4.00 per SALE. With the economy in the toilet, nobody's comparing to the past. We keep hearing that the economy is "rebounding" and so hopefully this will change. But my income has been $8,000 for the year - that's for real. So is the taxes, $12,000 for the year. That's real too. But there's the reality I'm in ... I depend on folks having money to spend. They don't. Our MAIN business is government, military, schools and corporate purchasers. NONE of them are buying. But there ya are.
You'd THINK that the WACO party would be in a dither over all this. Nope, their boy is in, and who CARES if the UN does military exercises in Michigan anymore? The Michigan MILITIA has bingo nights now. Heh.
OH, how I wish I could go off on a diatrbie right now ... oh how I wish, but out of respect for Dave our host who's trying DESPERATELY, by personal interaction to lead us aways from THIS stuff, I won't ... the reason why I'm incensed personally is my OWN personal situation now that foreign customers find it SO overbearing to buy our stuff that we're near broke (foreign sales were ALWAYS where we made our money) and having to pay more in property and SCHOOL taxes than I make (forget the OTHER taxes imposed on those making $8000 a year upstate) I'm just OVER the top pythed off.
My apologies to Dave, but needed to explain why Uncle Selkirk is *SO* twisted these days ... for those of you who don't know my NORMAL spirit, check out the pages in the archives here as of 9/11/2001 and beyond where I offered a bit of sanity I no longer have for myself. I once was a useful and fun person to have here - and hopefully I will be again somehow. The "deal" with the "foreign government" I mentioned a few days ago has been rejected by *OUR* government, so I'm deep in poo once again. :(
Just in case you wondered - if we had an ECONOMY, maybe things would be different. Got word TODAY that I have no credit cards anymore. Aggh.
I'm sorry to hear that your business seems to be in the donicker. If you don't mind a suggestion, maybe it's time to throw in the towel. I know, in some sense that's sort of like giving up and admitting defeat, but there is such a thing as throwing good money after bad. One of the characteristics of successful businesspeople is knowing when to fold 'em.
The INTERNET doesn't care - only moron politicos who don't realize that they CAN'T hold small business captive anymore (other than bodegas of course) can stand in the way ... but we're at a HORRIBLE disadvantage being an AMERICAN business ... if we moved ANYWHERE else, the worldwide PHUCK AMERICA boycott wouldn't be an impediment to us. Highest unemployment numbers in TWENTY YEARS ... could it be "bring it on? Could it be "Old Europe?"
I was BORN in the USA, and I've ALWAYS been proud to be an American. But let's be real - Shrub's the worst "pollock joke" ever told. And the rest of the world doesn't want to DEAL with America as long as SHrub is our "leader" ... they'd settle for NEWT GINGRICH even, but "brainboy" has put the REST of the planet over the top. Since there's talk that he'll get RE-elected, American HAS been written off by the rest of the world, even the chinese. Imagine if they all cut us off?
Not like we MAKE anything here anymore - we'd be *so* SCROOD.
Have you checked out the possibility of returning to the auld sod in the area of Dublin? That's where I would want to go if I were running an internet company. They at least have high speed internet access. And as a bonus, they appreciate the skillful turning of a phrase.
Tom
At DOI and state attorney generals office and FBI entry level investigators are slapped with the confidential tittle and are not elligible for overtime.
DOI gives comp time that can be redeemed as extra vacation time. But concidering each employee already gets 5 weeks vacation the compt time means crap
" you can BET that TSS' and other "management titles" will go straight for it"
Managment titles at most companies already don't get overtime. There are two reasons. One if the managed thier group better they should not need to stay late. Two if you are the manager who to say that ther overtime was justified
"But REST ASSURED, in MANY places overtime is paid to the white collar workforce."
Most possitions where employers slap on a professional tittle and/or are entry level into careers that may be quite lucrative such as entry level wall street jobs such as reasearch ananlyst, staff accounting positions, auitors, lawyers don't pay overtime. Employers play off the workers desire to climb the latter and make the right impression.
The big accounting firms such as Price Waterhouse Coopers pay thier accountants a flat salary even thought they often rent them out at $300 an hour to clients. IF you want to move up you need to put the hours in. My problem always was that most of the time you needed to stay late was because the boss screwed up
Most people working in Information Technology don't get paid overtime. Thier is a provision stating that computer professionals are not entitiled. The rumor around th office always was the the reason was that the bosses had no clue what was going on and that workers could invent issues to stay late(once again a rumor)
As to salaried positions, the intent of the economic regime was UPPER management, and indentured servants with stock ownership, bonuses and other inducements to "do whatever was required" as far as hours worked to accomplish the divisional goals. And at the same time, if that same manager was out doing the back 40 at the golf club when things were just humming along, nobody complained EITHER. This TOO is no longer reality.
Yeah, know all about IT, that's what I've been doing the past 15 years or so. When I was getting paid $255,000 a year, NO PROBLEM. Now that I'm making about $8,000 a year, they can kiss my hairy BUTT. And to make matters worse, I STILL have to do the work - just today, I was up since 9AM YESTERDAY and the workload is still cooking on this end. All *I* get paid is about $4.00 for every copy of what I wrote that gets sold. I don't GET a salary, I don't GET an hourly, and if someone is unhappy with what we do here, all it takes is ONE unhappy customer to put me under completely. Thus, I work 16 hours a day, 7 days a week and do nothing but work. Once upon a time, we HAD employees here. The workload hasn't diminished, but the number of people to DO it has shrunk down to just me until such time as the economy comes back, we start selling more of our software and can give some folks a nice job in a really great environment out here in the woods of upstate.
So yeah, I hear you ... but that don't make it RIGHT. This "overtime" thing Shrub shovelled through for his pals at oh so many evil places is just another nightstick up the butt for the people that actually *PAY* taxes ... :(
Plus I rather adept in the equities trading markets to make a few extra dollars to pay the bills if needed.
When the money was flowing like water into my pocket I did not mind as much, but concidering all the outsourcing and other inititives that are taking place, It is not worth it for me. A freind has helped me out and got me into a good school where the prinicpal and teachers are very supportive.
If the IT market every heats up again I can always take a leave of absent from teaching and get back into the game.
I can't take BUSH jr. He turns my stomach.
Nah the TWU workforce is too powerful to even consider such a thing, look what happened with the negotiations in December & they nearly went on strike. I could see it happening in the state & city but what would be worse layoffs or no overtime?
But hey, I'm sure there will be bonuses for the execs once again, and of course those dividends. But yeah, this IS outrageous. Slavery is back, and this time it's "equal opportunity" and based solely on economic status rather than skin color alone. :(
I know, this is truely tragic :-(
I would put that blame on the useless UN and its U.S. & Israel hating members. Wouldn't the East side of First Av between 42nd and 47th make a good spot for a condo?
Highest unemployment rate in 20 years. Yeah, this'll help bring shoppers back to the stores. :-\
Actually the sad part is many people do not understand that only the very rich benefit from these tax cuts. Many people I know think they are getting something of real value when this dufus goes around touting his "tax cut for everyone who pays taxes". I make in the mid 40's, I would guess that is somewhat above average. Yet I get a tax cut that mean nothing to me. I would most definately prefer that money be used to help ease suffering here and abroad. No matter how you look at it, I cannot believe that someone making over 1 million dollars a year is so hurt by the current tax system that he is suffering and needs this tax cut. The whole statigy of the far right is to defund the federal government so that they can use the unprecidented national debt as an excuse to gut key programs such as medicaid, medicare and social security.
And don't think this completely off topic, funding of mass transit will also be on the hit list - no cuts to fund highways for every armadillo in Texas, but a few subway cars for NYC - forget about it.
But hey, I got my six bucks!
Then move to a more affordable locale.
the problem is most of the crapy neighborhoods are crappy because govenment supported low income housing
Once again the middle class worker gets forced out while the advocacy group sues to help the poor illegal mexicans on the corner
And I have to question the thinking, Bush needs to get the economy going or he will have some trouble in 2004. Yet his prime tool is tax cuts for the rich. Yet the rich aren't going to spend the money, the working class will spend it. But no one every accused him of being too bright. I only hope he lets his idiology blind him and he gets shown the door in '04
It's okay man, don't worry. You can still live here. We have always tried to help the less fortunate at least attempt to better themselves. Even the "very very very nervous" in our midst. And you, my brother, fall into that classification. Shall I respond in kind? Nah, this is a place for trains. I'd rather leave you with this:
BLLLLLZZZZZZZZZ!!!! (That's a good ol' Bronx Cheer)
p.s.: Cheer up, ya knucklehead. Boy, you livin' in the best place in the world and all you can do is go "Wah Wah Wah". Wake up and partake of our miracle. Take a train ride to calm down.
Won't happen until the current contract expires and the next contract negotiations begin, but this is something the state's been itching for since public perception is that public employees are overpaid anyway. Hourlies are covered, but state wages are based on SALARIES, not hourly wages ... look it up. Even car cleaners are given what is called in civil service "BASE PAY" which is legally considered a SALARY even if it's minimum wage ... that's the angle that can be played ...
Our lawgivers are known for their Holland Tunnel sized "loopholes" which allow some interesting interpretations. :)
Congressman: So we can break them, of course, my dear.
Don't get too upset about it. Since you are self-employed, you are already a slave. Perhaps those computer programmers still with the company won't be laughing at you anymore.
http://www.dubyaspeak.com/
They RECORD the damage every day ... and folks wonder why the rest of the planet's said, "have fun, America, this is our stop ... have a NICE day." :(
What bothers me most is that I believe that W is not like some, who know that they are manipulative a***s, and have specific ends in mind. W actually believes what he says.
Think about it: if daddy weren’t who he was, would anyone have paid this ignoramus any attention?
That all said, most folks go blythely ignorant of how EVERY nation on this planet feels about our "we got a new Sheriff in town, and his name NOT be Reggie Hammond" asshat. Even the Canadians and the Brits (our CLOSEST friends) have had to redefine the word "dork" so as not to insult the "deficient." If it weren't for the "African Uranium" and the "Waepons of Mass Distraction" stuff, then the rest of the world would have well been satisfied to sit on the sidelines and let us self-destruct - knowing that in 2004, even Yankee fans would have seen the light and elected a TOASTER, ANYTHING to replace our mental midget in chief ... alas, the POLLS say that America BELIEVES in this boy.
THAT is what has shot down world opinion. That's what made Deutsche Bank pull the plug on lower Manhattan, that's what's caused them and most of the rest of the international banking, insurance and commodities entities say "this AIN'T going to get better soon" and relocate in Toronto and Montreal and say "you folks were dumb enough to do NAFTA, we don't HAVE to be in your country, we'll just do it from the border. Anyway, I'm going completely off topic here now, so I'll stop. Bottom line, if you think the economy sucks now, just wait until NEXT year. Shrub's asleep at the switch and America needs a LEADER. Since we ain't got one, let's just unzip our pants and water the shrub. :(
He is doing what he thinks is right not what is politically correct for his party
He had the guts the stand up to the fire union and close down a few unneeded fire houses which every mayor since the 1970's his identified as redundant but did not have the balls to do anything about. Koch, Dinkins and Guiliani are all on the record in support of the fire house closings
the advocacy groups knowning that they are wrong are wasting taxpayers money on a lawsuit to keep on house open a few extra months on a technicality that the FDNY needs to alert the comminity members on roosevelt island of thier new backup firehouse 90 days in advance.
Bloomberb had the balls and ware with all to re-invent the board of ed and not allow the UFT(for which I now am a memeber as of two weeks ago) to act as co-chanceller of the Dept of ed blocking needed reforms. All of the reforms in the long run HELP teachers. it is much easier to teach a child who is up to grade level and has a good foundation then one who can not read a clock(a student in my 8ty grade summer school class can not tell time on a clock or tell you what months is after septemeber)
NYTIMES http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/10/nyregion/10MATT.html
Not so, said the chancellor, intent on loosening up a system hidebound with contractual rules. "I am prepared to make tough decisions," Mr. Klein said yesterday. "I would much prefer it if change took place with agreement rather than disagreement. But in the end, if you compromise everything away, you won't be able to make the changes you need."
To make a long story short, any good willed outsider of the political process is going to be mistreated as bloomberg is in the press. The reason is quite simple. The press and political and union elite have an unwritten partership providing each other with publicity and news to report to their readers.
Bloomberg scare's both to death. The polticians becasue he want to runt he city in the best interest of the people not thepolitical bosses.
The union, a better run operation such as the MTA has happier employees who will see less and less need for a large union brain trust threating the bigwigs and reps big salaries and purpose
The newspapers, they will actually have to spend more money researching and investigation to come up with enough interesting stories to fill thier pages and newscasts. it is much easier for someone to feed you a story. In the late 1990's due to the lower incidents of violent crime and fires(big ratings stories) the newspapers and TV stations decided to attack the police on brutality issues. This is not my opinion but stated fact reported by the NYTIMES back in 1996
Bloomberg though, I'm not so sure lately ... I suspect he's making the BIGGEST mistake any politico can make, letting his EGO get mixed up in a heartless and thankless job. Politicians CANNOT be "loved" even IF they do the right things, look at Bubba. He made the SAME mistake. You have to do what NEEDS to be done, and to hell with everybody if it's the RIGHT and MORAL choice (the latter capitalized word lets out republicans who paint themselves with the word, just like they drape themselves in the flag and then pyth on both by not FOLLOWING a true moral imperative) ...
Bloomberg *HAS* managed to keep a city afloat with less income than BEAME had, and for THAT he is to be commended, but the boy REALLY needs to come upstate, light up some ganga and kick back. :)
There's PLENTY of waste in NYC governance, almost as much in STATE governance ... and in BOTH cases, the phat ain't flowing to anyone who REALLY needs it. :(
Dinkins what put in a bad spot. The african american community(Don't let my Carribean freinds hear me use that term, they prefer black, they don't call white people european americans) Expected him to bend over backwards always supporting them. For two long Black politicians and community activists have blames the "white man" for all thier problems and now that a black man was in charge, who are they going to blame. Blame the advocacy groups who poison thier own citizens with misinformation while they line thier pockets.
I seem to remember the 125th street parking garage built by the city to fund 125th street redevelopment monies went into one of dinkins freinds pockets for drivers and expensive cars.
Dinkins was a nice man but an ineffective mayor. Bloombergs biggest problem is his unwillingness to grandstand and bloat about his accomplishments as mayor and thier are many.
The Board of ed re-org. Lets just say I have just witnessed the fruits of the re-org. In may the community school district office for which I worked with to gain my teaching credentials had 18 secretaries on staff, countless other people who were chatting it up most of the day. The secretaries more or less did nothing and were not helpful when you asked them questions. A colosal waste of money
Today, One secretarty for the 5 remaining members of the office.
Bloomberg is willing to do what's right. The most important thing bloomberg can do for NYC in his final 2 years is to strip away the layers of buerocracy at city agencies getting rid of the dead wood and adding accountability. The saving can be returned to the taxpayers in better service and lower taxes which DO CREATE MORE JOBS.
Accomplishment # 2 turning an unprofitable glass and plastic operation which cost the city $60 ton to separate and eventually dump into a landfill into a program which will PAY THE CITY $9 a ton
A 311 system that allow city residents a central place to get problems solved. no more phone tag like in the past for which even if you called the correct agency they often told you to call someone else. The new system gives you tracking numbers and allows managment to track the call detail and what was done in responce to the request
And let's not forget one OTHER, MORE IMPORTANT, MAJOR thing. Folks in the city think their MAYOR and CITY HALL run the city. BUZZZZZZZZZ! If so, you're the weakest link, go do the Lemming thing.
Since BEAME (a democrat, so let's not slap the "L Bomb" on me here) rode the dark horse into bankruptcy (we'll forget that FORD said "drop dead") New York City has been operated by the MUNICIPAL ASSISTANCE CORPORATION and a contrivance of other "rulers" that are NOT of NYC origin. Joe Bruno and George Elmer Paturkey RULE the city ... NOT Bloomberg. NYC government is a puppet show, the STATE runs the city because it is STILL under the bankruptcy rules, even though it paid off the debt. As I've said many times, our lawgivers can MAKE ROCKS FLOAT.
Blame Dinkins? Yeah, he trusted some bad people - but he can go to his heavenly reward in a white robe ... he DID try to do the right thing even if everybody ELSE stabbed him. :(
Got one in Baltimore, and guess what?
Call 311, get the ol' run-a-round. Whoopie!! A centralized number to call for non-emergency problems. Still get the "call 396-xxxx" for lots of things.
Your city tax dollars at work. NOT.
I feel *MUCH* safer now, knowing that Colonie is safe from a terrorist attack because our vigilant telephone operators can dial us up and ask us if we've got Prince Albert in a can before snickering and hanging up. :)
I was grouching about our 311 system which does what I said.
That being said, I pay $2200.00 per year in property tax (for a small, 1928 vintage frame house). I go to the City Board of Estimates meeting every year and bitch about how much money is just plain thrown away.
We had a small problem with cars on my street being hit by paintballs. We know it's kids, but they hit between 6:30 and 8:00 AM. So I called 311 to get the cops to pay attention between those times, maybe we can catch the little suckers. What do I get told? I get to call the Northeastern District and complain.
Well, I happen to have the District Commander's phone number, so guess who I called?
For street lights, I have the numbers of both the city and electric company's street lighting chiefs. Which one I call depends on color of the band painted on the poles, black if BGE's, none if the city's.
For traffic light problems, you're suposed to call 311. I have the numbers of the Supervisor and the Chief Engineer in my electronic rolodex.
If I'm gonna write a $2200 check every year, I'm getting my $$$ worth, even if I have to be a PITA once in a while.
On topic item, but related to above:
At BSM (Baltimore Streetcar Museum), the City is our landlord, so we get the city for everything major on the buildings, which are all leased. We have the connections, so things get fixed FAST!!!
Which one, Koch or me?
Bush will be OUTTA HERE come November 2nd, 2004, mark my word and remember post #525844. He is a GONER, BYE, FINITO, AU REVOIR, ADIOS, HASTA LA VISTA BABY.
Meanwhile, the thug in chief continues to revive WorldCon/MCI, Imclone, and just today word is ENRON is BACK!!! Microsoft got away with Windows XPee and doesn't HAVE to fix it, McVomits got away with selling transfats, Tobacco industry just got off the hook - I swear, we'd be better off with phucking AL CAPONE as President ... unlike the republicans, the Cosa Nostra at least SPREAD IT AROUND the hood. :(
LEADERSHIP involves CONFIDENCE and MAKING people believe that the best is yet to come. Alas, we have REPUBLICAN DOOM. Daddy's out of work. :(
Too bad you have to be a U.S. citizen and U.S. born to be President or I would nominate Ariel Sharon, one of the few world leaders with balls!!!
He's got good approval ratings with those who pay the bills,
The Democrats haven't got a Donkey's Fart of a candidate yet, and a fractured support base.
So as much as you would like, you have to stand FOR something, because standing AGAINST something just isn't going to cut it.
Elias
But this "big hat with no cattle" REALLY has to go. Texans know what that phrase means. :(
And me, I'm a BARRY GOLDWATER conservative, straight and narrow, crooks is crooks no matter WHAT office they hold, and the job of the government is to LEAVE PEOPLE ALONE (Muslims included) UNLESS they decide to harm others. Government is there to do what the PEOPLE and the PRIVATE SECTOR CANNOT do for themselves. Government should stand aside otherwise - their ONLY function is that, and putting down bullies too big for the people or the states to take out on their own. Bullies like Enron, Worldcon, Halliburton (Dick Cheney) and others too big for their britches and availing themselves of interstate flight to avoid prosecution.
Government is a FACILITATOR, not an obstruction. That's why THIS conservative here is sounding more and more like Rush's tag of the "L bomb." Employment conditions BECAME a federal issue because of rampant abuse. During the 30's and 40's, unions mitigated the problem. Now that the bullies have kicked the chit out of the unions, it DOES fall on government to make it fair. I'm WITH a corporation. If government REALLY wanted to help out business (SMALL business, those of us who actually CREATE jobs) then government would put their efforts into helping us provide MEDICAL coverage and to hell with the flotsom over "minimum wage" ... paying employees a decent wage is no problem - paying for their HEALTH CARE is a KILLER. Fix THAT and the other problems are immaterial.
Aggggggh. I can't BELIEVE these GOP morons *DARE* to call themselves "conservatives" ... REALLY boils my butt. Fascists, maybe - CONSERVATIVES *know* the value of money, and of LABOR. :(
Unfortunitly most NYC politico's are onstructist first
Robin Hood in reverse ... ON VIAGRA ... and we LIKE getting boned the hard way! :-\
You have hit a chord near to my thinking. There are many (many) problems that go with the explosion of health care costs. Our business manager was bemoning our high health costs, and someone in the community said that when health costs were low, we were only living into our 70s. Now that we are paying more we are living into our 90s. (And thus having to pay more for longer).
Keep that thought in mind while we look at the health care issues.
On Drug Costs: You're damn right they are high! But let us be fair with the drug companies, research is very expensive. Hundreds of research scientists with MD and PhD degrees are not found on the cheap. It can take years for these good people to bring a drug to market. And for every drug that they make money on five to ten others never make it out of the labortory. The got to be able to recoup their money, and they can since it is clear that their stocks are doing well.
So how do you defray the costs of these drugs? Or how can you get research costs down. Well, getting the costs down is no big problem, you could get the government to do all of the research and development, and then they can just license a manufacturer to produce and distribute the pills. A good socilaist answer if ever there was one, and not likely to be passed very quickly either. The government should not be in business or compeating in business, especially in a business where there is competition, and profit.
(Unlike RAILROADS and TRANSIT {to keep on topic} where there is no competition or profit, but still a need for a service that perhaps can *best* provided by the public.)
So we come back to the issue of HEALTH CARE COSTS...
Yes they are high, but I wish we would ditch the word "Insurance".
It is NOT insurance. Insurance is something that you buy on your home or your car, you pay a premium, and hope to the good Lord that you NEVER have to collect a penny on that policy. THAT is what Insurance is.
Health Insurance is not insurance at all: You ARE planning on collecting on that policy, and you are EXPECTING to take out more than you put in, otherwise why in the world would you put anything into it in the first place.
So it is NOT Insurance: It is a FINANCE SCHEME. And there is nothing wrong with a finance scheme. Having identified it for what it is, is the first step to improving the product.
We have a minimum wage law in this country, and while it is unacceptably low at the moment, not having been revised since the early 90s, its revision could include a package of renumerations that include Health Financing. I would suggest that every employee over 25 hours / week be entitled to a "Basic Standard" Health Package as part of their minimum wage. For employees under this number, employers would have to pay into a pool for coverages of non-covered employees, the rates of which are contrived to encourage fulltime employmees rather than many part-time employees.
Then as part of every welfare package, the "Basic Standard" Health Package is included.
Since it is a negeotiable part of employment renumeration contracts, just as one negeotiates a higher wage or salary, one can negeotiate a more premium variety of Health Package. (Just to keep on topic... Amtrak still does sell first class accommodations.)
So private enterprises (albeit regulated) may offer these "Health Packages" as a financial product, rather than as an insurance product. (Different regulations and expectations, but at least calling a spade a spade and not pretending that it is a steam shovel.)
And GETTING THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF THE Insurance Business, which given the way that they run it (Our Ambulance squad has received NO MEDICARE reimbursements in the past year, but we still gotta carry their patients!) is a loosing proposition for the taxpayer, the rate payer, the patient and the providers.
< /Rant > Elias
Read the actual bill. It won't affect the vast majority of workers, including transit workers. It limits how overtime is defined as pertaining to managers. It will affect fewer than 700,000 workers nationwide. I hate to see generally intelligent people make suck idiots of themselves because they simply don't understand the facts involved.
Sorry for drawing YOU into this - YOU I respect - the folks that I've responded to have lost MINE, you haven't ... one of the things I admire about "X-Police" is the dealing with reality. Black and white don't exist except on the outide of the car. You're been there, YOU know the reality - GRAY is the color of the lawgivers *and* the MTA. :)
And I *also* know (since I've always gotten along FAMOUSLY with the footsoldiers wherever I've lived) that what may APPEAR to be reality ain't necessarily is. Heh.
As I *tried* to explain in another message, I *SINCERELY* apologize for my state of mind lately - I've always been a pacifist at heart - once everyone in the room's got a BULLET in them, you've never SEEN such a peaceful scene. Heh. Just kidding ... but YOU know the value of the chuckle. So MANY problems in the world have a 23 cent solution, if only it was legal and ethical. :)
That said, one of the things that *REALLY* makes me CRAZY here is that I'm a REAL "conservative" which means simply that people should be allowed to do WHATEVER they want, SO LONG AS THEY DON'T HARM OTHERS in the pursuits of their joys. I also believe that people should be responsible for the outcome of their choices, just as I take responsibility HERE for my own sad realities lately. But then again, Democraps BELIEVE in the internet's potential like WE do, and the republicans are busy defeinding the SPAMMERS. Gotta love it. :)
But no, Chris REALLY needs some counseling ... or viagra - after all, when BUBBA got some, the repubs went APESHEEET because nobody wanted to blow THEM ... hell, even 1689 gets routine joeblobs - HELL, you've been there and SEEN 1689 go "ahhhhhhh". Heh.
But yeah, *I* came to Branford for the Arnine as well - then Dougie, Nancy and a few others went for lunch that day and Dougie got to run a streetcar while we held his soda and whatever ... FELL IN LOVE with the streetcar we rode, got a kick out of others. While the festivities went on, realized that Unca Sparky REALLY needed an attendant at one of the hand-throw switches that day we last saw each other, so I hung out there when not riding or operating 1689 just to make Unca Sparky's yard limits switching a bit easier by BEING there.
Funny thing about living upstate - we're not afraid of rain. If it's rainign, you get WET. So? But yeah, for someone who BARELY knew what streetcars were, I got me a new mojo working. :)
Suddenly, AFTER Branford, STREETCARS are KEWL!!!
TARS was a member of the ERPCC, but didn't have the $$$ to buy them, so they built and bought cars that had the "PCC feel" with standard control packages.
629 is an example of TARS 65th Street Shop magic and one of my favorite cars (outside of some wide-gauge beauties of my acquaintance)
and absolute fun to operate, especially if you know all the tricks.
Personally although I do like 629, it's not my favorite car to operate. As a subway fan I like the brake valve in my right hand instead of the foot brake and I sometimes get confused on its door operation. I'm always afraid I'm going to close the door on someone. Also, if you're not careful you can lock yourself out and the only way to get back is is to drain the tank. Another thing is that the dead man's thingy on the brake is very sensitive and it often loses power. However I still like it once in a while. Now 4573, that's a streetcar!!
By the way, are you related to Ken Lawrence who dispatched last Sunday at Branford?
Lawrence is a pretty common surname, but there's no Ken in our clan. (My paternal grandfather was right off the boat from Ireland, as was my paternal grandmother. They hit the US on different boats, 7 years apart, and both settled in Baltimore, where they met in 1889.) I however did dispatch today (and tomorrow) at BSM, the land of hand-braked streetcars.
Amen to that. It IS my absolute favorite car, and the reason I am a member of Branford. Besides its delightful personality, it also has a very personal connection. As you know, that car was one of twenty in dedicated service on the 59th Street Crosstown line from 1939 to 1946. My grandfather (who died when I was five) commuted on that line until December of 1940 and would have ridden that car and its siblings when it was in regular service; running that car for the public and telling that story as part of my "won't you join the museum" speech is my way of honoring his memory.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In my vest pocket or uniform pants watch pocket is my father's Illinois Bunn Special that he bought in 1922 when he was a motorman for the United Railways. He died in July, 1969 and BSM began public operation in July, 1970. He never got to ride on car his son operated, but that watch helps me to honor him. I'm thankful he never gave it away in the years between the United and now.
The ND legislature kinda screwed the nursing profession out here, but I am on a Board of Nursing committee that has to re-write the regulations to make them comply with the new laws.
As some background, we had eliminated the 2 year RN program, and required that every RN have a 4 year degree.
The legislature, citing some garbage about a nursing shortage (ND has the HIGHEST per capita ratio of nurses to population or to patients...)
Anyway... among the new regulations, 2 year RNs will not be classified with the professionals, and will be inelligible to hold a position that does not pay overtime.
Elias
Those numbers sound like the ones the Bush administration was putting forth...right under the stats about the Iraqi weapons o mass destruction.
A better statistic would be percentage of workers regularly taking advantage of overtime that is now loosing it. Or how many BILLIONS of dollars will now be diverted into the pockets of the top %5 income bracket with the new regs. That's all W cares about.
It gets worse. The TA can (and has) make workers work up to 16 hours, and is only required to give 8 hours between tours. I experienced this yesturday. While not 16 hours, I worked 11, got 8 hours before my next report. Coming home from the Bronx with GOs and all took 3 hours, and 2 with the A line GO to get to my reporting location today (and I was extra board). Fortunately I am not on the road. However, if I found out the T/O of my train worked long hours, no rest and was on a second day of long hours, I'd be off that train!!
-Robert King
The law will affect approx 700,000 mostly white collar workers. Cops, firefighters and those who have collectively bargained are exempt. That includes every single civil service employee in this city.
For folks like myself, who spent 40 years of my life reading "bills" for journalism learned back in the 60's that a "bill" has nothing but the FINEST crafted sausage content. All glad-handing and everybody ¢ums WITHOUT getting impeached! It's the "legislative intent" paperwork and MEMOS that the SUPREME COURT uses to determine what the bill REALLY means ...
It's a FINELY crafted sausage ... and about as accurate reading the handicap sheets at the race track handed out by individuals in the parking lot that will give you "better odds than inside" ... or of course, Paturkey's CURRENT NYRA Board ... gotta love it - used to be a happy, "we're all in this together" ITALIAN thing ... today, Paturkey's head of the SERBIAN mob ... those Brooklyn gas tax boys. Ah, well ... some folks are republicans, and they'll eat whatever's put on their shrimp boat. Arsenic, yum. :(
Words cannot describe how much I *Loathe* you republican chits. YOU killed my FRIENDS with your BS taxcuts that didn't put a DIME in MY pocket. Hope you're happy with the 3000+ you republicans KILLED. And then screwed their FAMILIES. Ditto. :)
8 years of Clintonian ineptitude and Clintonian corporate greed. Enron, Imclone, the whole tech-wreck, it was totally his administration's fault. Fault Bush for not doing more to help clean up the mess. Besides, unemployment is actually decreasing.
And to t hink, my own retirement fund was in K-MART ... at least ENRON is paying 14 cents to the dollar, K-MART will be paying NOTHING. Ah well, it's just $130,000 worth of stock, as of their last trade. Now it's worth NOTHING. But hey, for the republicans, ENRON'S paying off from the US Treasury. Pity Martha Stewart hadn't greased the wheels, at least I could afford a SKIRT if she had. :)
Yep, every post makes me all the PROUDER to be a republican. NOT! (and I really WAS a republican!)
We really DO need to end this - for myself, I'm sorry I don't have much to contribute - got my first handle time at the age of eight on an R10 with a motorman who was my close friend's DAD and worked 207-Lefferts on Saturdays and loved when HIS son would come to hang out with pops. On the return trip (Paul had MORE than enough "handle time" from dad and found it BORING!) I got to run an A train from 181 to just shy of 207 (dad HAD to take over each time before passing the tower) ... DELIGHTFUL! Sorry, I *genuinely* respect Dave's HOME here and feel guilty as all hell EVERY time I'm prompted by the chit of others to get SERIOUSLY worked up and feel the need to break out my baseball bat (normally reserved for the script kiddies, worm makers and "crackers of innocent people's systems) ...
IN my REAL life, I'm like a COP - MY job is to accept issues from customers, track down the perpetrator and issue a SOLUTION that works, go "undercover" as a 13 year old and FIND worms, nasties and backdoors *BEFORE* they're "news" (often WEEKS before a "CNN warns of new worm" alert) and DEAL with them. When someone who buys our software runs into unusual problems (nor caused by US), I have to take emails and help them figure out and SOLVE the REAL problem they've run into, and dozens of other ugly realities ...
WHAT I'M SAYING HERE IS ... *PLEASE* forgive me for my negativity here and there - with what *I* do for a living, I am immersed from the moment I wake up until the moment I crash (I've been awake since Thursday morning and am STILL working right now - I'm ONLY on subtalk when I'm on the job!) in EXTREME negativity at ALL times. The only time most people email me is when something ain't happy and somehow it's MY fault ... being 53 years old myself, my OWN reality is mighty simple.
If someone gives me money ($4.00 per copy) then I am HONOR-BOUND to *EARN* that $4.00 should someone have a problem - it's a sacred BOND of MY generation that you don't blow off people who are unhappy. With so many websites, software vendors, MICROSOFT and others who SCWOO their customers, I usually have some pretty NASTY attitude in my face from the moment I fall out of bed until I collapse back into it.
Such is *MY* life - 100% negativity 100% of my life ...
I say this only in hopes that folks understand why I'm so damned pschizo ... my OWN life SUCKS, but since folks have bought the software I've written, I'm *OBLIGATED* by my own moral values to take the time to sol.ve problems, even if I didn't cause them. THAT is mighty expensive, emotionally and spiritually and why I've been so cranky. Support is provided to the nth whether or not we're making money. "If someone gives us money, the LEAST we can do is EARN it" is the motto here, and sometimes, it takes its toll.
Sorry for throwing this in here, but I felt, given my erratic behavior lately everyone deserved an explanation as to WHY ...
I *wish* we had an economy so we could bring back the 9,999 employees we once had here (addording to the NYS Labor Department, yet ANOTHER story of screwage I haven't told) ... I sure could use a DAY OFF. Alas, I don't EVER get a day of - I had ONE on Christmas of 2001 and another which was documented at Branford ... but other than THOSE two days, that was IT. Folks who get a day off can take a sanity break, I ain't had ONE in nearly a year owing to the Shrub economy and damned few buying our stuff so we can hire some folks back so I can have a DAY off ...
My apologies for anyone I've pythed off lately, but MY life TRULY sucks lately. And I've been demanded to pay more taxes than my damned annual INCOME. I am *SO* screwed! :(
And THAT statement is the result of me being stupid and mentioning my realites HERE ... the "foreign government 1" said "we wish we could help, but the publicity would cause us problems with the Bush Administration as a result of your political standing with the administration. YOU came up SPECIFICALLY." ...
OK, I'm SCREWED. PROUD to *NOT* be a republican, but it may have cost me my own futre at the age of 53 ... Sieg Bush.
You filled it with disinformation.
You can't cry when others point that out.
Besides the minimum salary that they just changed after decades, the law also requires that the jobs have certain specific Tasks and are not just a TITLE.
For example, a MANAGER must review employees, hire and fire, and do other duties that a Manager would do. A title is not enough.
Slavery??? Oh please! This law dates from 1933/4 (and also enacted the Minimum Wage). The minimum salary was totally out of date - what Manager would earn less than $8,100?? It was a totally useless distinction when I complained in 1982.
South to North:
9320
9314
9763
9762
2105
9325
And here's a photo (I also have video):
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Peace,
ANDEE
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Uhh... Where's the more?.
(nevermind.)
(10:59:11 PM) You have just entered room "SubChat."
Chap11ChooChoo (10:59:18 PM): whoa
Chap11ChooChoo (10:59:23 PM): do i have a story to tell you
LIBusN8 HTC GAM (10:59:34 PM): go ahead,we're all ears
LIBusN8 HTC GAM (10:59:39 PM): errr...all eyes
dgreenberger74 (10:59:41 PM): brian!!!
Chap11ChooChoo (10:59:50 PM): did Kopl;-D post about me?
dgreenberger74 (10:59:51 PM): we were all worried!
LIBusN8 HTC GAM (10:59:53 PM): we're all cyclops i think
Chap11ChooChoo (11:00:15 PM): the short story is
Chap11ChooChoo (11:00:26 PM): i was at Queensboro Plaza
Chap11ChooChoo (11:00:30 PM): about to leave
Chap11ChooChoo (11:00:44 PM): saw 4 R-33 singles and an R-62A heading manhattan bound
Chap11ChooChoo (11:00:47 PM): got a video of it
dgreenberger74 (11:01:03 PM): cool
Chap11ChooChoo (11:01:20 PM): then ran like hell to the elevaotor, down 4 stories, over to the station (i was on top of the parking garage)
Chap11ChooChoo (11:01:33 PM): thought for a minute
Chap11ChooChoo (11:01:35 PM): then got on a 7
Chap11ChooChoo (11:02:22 PM): i was sure they didn't switch to the BMT (probably can't) so i was wondering where the ycould be going on the 7, then i realized they had to go past QBPlaza to switch to the NB tracks to then get over on the BMT
Chap11ChooChoo (11:02:46 PM): so anyhow i got to times square, went over to the BMT platform
Chap11ChooChoo (11:02:58 PM): and sure enough about 4 minutes a 2 trains alter, here it comes
Chap11ChooChoo (11:03:02 PM): i got photos of it on the way in
Chap11ChooChoo (11:03:09 PM): then it pulled up and stopped
Chap11ChooChoo (11:03:15 PM): so i ran down and got some photos
Chap11ChooChoo (11:04:04 PM): so then i tried to think how it would get to 207
Chap11ChooChoo (11:04:31 PM): lomng story short i ended up at 181 on the IND, was there for 2 hours,, and nothing showed up
Chap11ChooChoo (11:04:36 PM): so now i'm back
dgreenberger74 (11:04:49 PM): probably went down to coney
Chap11ChooChoo (11:05:04 PM): so hopefully the good news is that they're not being scrapped
Chap11ChooChoo (11:05:08 PM): reefed
CHAOSxBC (11:05:14 PM): get any car #s for the r33 singles?
Chap11ChooChoo (11:05:23 PM): you bet i did, got em all on video
But why would R-62A's be going to 207th to begin with? I'm not convinced these cars were off to be reefed at all.
But from what I've been reading here, I think it's a little less likely they'll be reefed (for now).
What's your point? I was waiting at 181 St IND for the train to come by. I was hoping it would short turn at Pacific and use the ol' KK connector to get onto the IND. If it went all the way to Coney Island then 2 hours may not have been enough time for it to get back up to 181 St.
And, again, why do you assume it was going to 207th? There was one R-62A in the middle. Was it going to be reefed? If not, it would need to get back home somehow, and it would need to be sandwiched by a pair of R-33 singles to do that. So of the five Redbirds in the consist, only three could be reefed.
All of the above??
Yes. The mistake of not raising the fare in 2001.
But your answer to your co-workers is that the fare hike is needed espcially if you insist on having unnneeded token booths and don't insist on the MTA to modernize it's practices and get rid of dead wood
The judge can not order a fare rollback as the MTA and the MTA only have the right to set it's fare
The strapahngers campaigns press statements are very misleading
as for a fare rollback. The fare should have been hiked in 2001. Don't count on it being rolled backed
Many riders including myself still pay less then we were paying in 1990.
Which end of the mezzaine are you meeting at?
8-) ~ Sparky
Are retired folk eligible to participate? Or other's who have
the time? >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
PS-Change thje title of the tread to "An Upcoming Teenage Subway Trip".
I think you have that backwards >GG
Have fun while I will be looking at the view of the Hudson River and Jersey from my office window while you go to the Bronx and Flushing.
Who (WHAT) da feck do we look for??
Where is the ride going to??
Brahs like details...
You mean by the newsstand place thingie?
Or by the lit Subway Map in the Mezzanine..
Or by the stairway at the walkway leading TO the 456 from the shuttle?
::sigh::
Jimmy
So what about you? What is the number one must-ride on your list?
Mark
:-)
At "http://www.et420-online.de/" you can see pictures of the 420.
In North America, the new Sheppard line in Toronto.
In the US in particular, the various Colorado narrow gauge lines, and Pike's Peak Cog Railway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
BTW, MNRR ACMUs are EASY to find if you know where to look! The heart of the PM rush hour, leaving GCT from about 4:30-6:30PM, is ACMU prime time. You're almost guaranteed on the following 'Zone' type trains: The Hudson Line trains that run GCT to Tarrytown express and then all stops to Croton-Harmon. Harlem Line GCT to Crestwood express then all stops to North White Plains. The Bronx locals don't usually get ACMUs AFAIK. I think Metro-North prefers the M-series because of their automatic doors. Also, most afternoon rush hour MU trains turn at their final terminal and deadhead back to GCT for another trip. The ACMUs seldom do that. They seem to be assigned to trains that don't turn but instead tie up.
John
Otherwise:
—Adelaide to Alice Springs
—Some of the TGV routes in France (Paris-Lyons?)
—The Talgos in Spain
—The narrow gauge railways in Cantabria (Spain)
—North Yorks moors railway
What I have enjoyed:
—The Trans Australia Express from Adelaide to Perth (should have been Sydney to Perth, but some of the line was washed out at Broken Hill
—The Orient Express: Singapore to Bangkok
—Eurostar
—The Cog railway from Diakofto to Kalavrita (Peloponese, Greece)
What I would like to have enjoyed:
—Coastal route from Saltburn (where I grew up) to Whitby
—Coastal route from Whitby to Scarborough
…both victims of the good Dr Beeching.
Both the Times & Newsday have done something about the Queensboro Bridge trolley and NEITHER mentioned that Queens Surface did that service & still does :-(
It's still a bus. No streetcars since 1957.
The news only report the juicy stuff, like back during that bus strike.
100,000 happy folks a day isn't enough for them to write about :-(
So... Queens Surface(the green striped buses, right???) was origianlly trolleys and then simply converted to buses. How's about a reconvertion. It'd be great to see trolleys again. Hell, maybe one day williamsburgh bridge trolley terminal will be re-opened
NO, Green Lines is the one with the green stripes ;-). I think trolleys will not see a comback [would be nice though] but as you said, if Essex St on the J/M/Z had theirs re-established it would make the station look far better.
I know There may be one trolley line goin up in greenwhich village. the VCTC wants a line runnin the length of Houston St...That's the only project for now that may be done, after Bob Diamonds project...(sigh).
B No trains at Bedford Pk Blvd and Kingsbridge Rd
D Makes all local stops in the Bronx
All Times, 5 AM Mon, Jul 21 to 5 AM Mon, Aug 25
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
And concourse is both orange and mostly useless (well, I've never passed or even caught up to a B while on it). So I worry.
Hey, if expresses never catch up to the locals, why can't they just run them express both ways? Off-peak direction on the local, and could stop at 167th. Hell they could run them express during this GO!
Frank Hicks
I assume the museum is still closed due to its insurance problems or you would've got the answers from them. I took my son there a few weeks ago after the Riverhead Aquarium and it was closed. Although it was disappointing we did spend some time walking among the cars. Some posters in other forums say it might reopen soon, anyone know? And is the one in Greenpoint Greenport also closed?
The LIRR had double-decker M.U.'s at one point? I thought all the double-decker cars were trailers.
*I know some of you do not like people calling it the Babylon Line, you'd rather we call it the Montalk Line. To all of you I have one work:TOUGH
Frank Hicks
The report
The report is quite long and detailed but in essence says that the derailment was caused by faulty gearbox bearings causing a lot of mechanical stress to the inadequate motor mounting bolts, and the safety bracket not being anything like as strong as it needed to be to catch and hold the detached motor.
The report goes on to list a number of things that should be done differently in the future to avoid this type of problem again, and to modify the procedures for handling the aftermath of such an incident.
This quote from section 8 caught my eye;
"Several customers reported that they had heard unusual noises coming from the train prior to the derailment. Many commented that they did not report this to staff as they believed they would either not be believed, would face a possible fine if they used the Emergency Alarm or cause extended delays for themselves or other customers."
I think that says a lot about how London Underground's customers perceive their customer service.
Andrew.
Peace,
ANDEE
(North) 9325, 1716-20, 2111, 2049, 2120, 2110, 2107, 2040 (South)
So 9325 apparently just went down to "pick up" an 11-car R62A consist (likely from CIY).
While on the Flushing local, going towards Times Square, I also saw a 33WF coupled to an 11-car trainset of R62As (going in the opposite direction), but I couldn't get any numbers.
It looks like the R33WFs are already starting their new "lives" so to speak as work motors.
My psychic abilities work for me again. ;)
I spotted it at 63rd/Lex (F train) heading Queens-bound, approx 12:30 PM. A few minutes after you did.
If it was going to Coney Island...it must have gotten there either really fast or just happened to go there for MINOR maintenance...
I guess I'll never know where that train was headed.
The Amtrak pictures were pretty stale. Amtrak is huge and there's no way we could cover it in any detail. I bet there's plenty of other web sites doing a better job with Amtrak coverage. You can still find some Amtrak photos in the NJT, MNRR, and SEPTA sections from shared trackage particularly the Northeast Corridor.
I hate when people do that.
Take a closer look at the 5 line service advisory page on their web site.
You are correct as usual Mr. Greenberger.
Look at this and see
Want another reason to go DUH to NYCT? Check out this J line PDF for shuttle buses between Broadway Junction and Cypress Hills
Hint: This might be a Bustalk issue, look closely. You will see why NYCT has no coordination between subways and buses.
This time you appear to be incorrect. The M is extended to Chambers next weekend specifically to accomodate displaced L passengers? (But why not Broad, so they can get to the A/C/2/3 at Fulton?)
Because they have something against the M ever terminating at Broad St. With he L GO, the L looses it's connection to both 8th Ave and 7th Ave lines, so why do the displaced L passengers (now M passengers for the GO) have to miss out on the Fulton transfer.....maybe because M (J weekend riders) riders will really realize what they are missing on weekends (and in the future for the midday M), and will actually realize it's dumb to use Chambers as a terminal?
late nights local
B Lefferts Blvd Queens - 168th Street Manhattan 6th Av Express 8th Av(CPW)local
Late Nights Lefferts Shuttle, from Lefferts Blvd to Rockaway Blvd
C - Coney Island Stillwell Avenue Brooklyn - Bedford Park Blvd-200th Street Bronx West End Express, 8th Avenue local, CPW(8th Avenue) local, Concourse local
Late Nights shuttle from CI - 36th Street Brooklyn
D Coney Island - 205th Street, Brighton Local in Brooklyn, Express and Manhattan and the Bronx(peak)
outside rush hours
Q - Brighton Beach Brooklyn - 57th Street (125th Street once SAS is built) Manhattan
T - Second Avenue line Hanover Square Manhattan 125th Street Crosstown- 205th Street Bronx Express in Bronx all times except nights and weekends(possible weekend express on some weekends)
this will spread out the services in Brooklyn and Queens
B Lefferts Blvd Queens - 168th Street Manhattan 6th Av Express 8th Av(CPW)local
Late Nights Lefferts Shuttle, from Lefferts Blvd to Rockaway Blvd
C - Coney Island Stillwell Avenue Brooklyn - Bedford Park Blvd-200th Street Bronx West End Express, 8th Avenue local, CPW(8th Avenue) local, Concourse local
Late Nights shuttle from CI - 36th Street Brooklyn
D Coney Island - 205th Street, Brighton Local in Brooklyn, Express and Manhattan and the Bronx(peak)
outside rush hours
Q - Brighton Beach Brooklyn - 57th Street (125th Street once SAS is built) Manhattan
T - Second Avenue line Hanover Square Manhattan 125th Street Crosstown- 205th Street Bronx Express in Bronx all times except nights and weekends(possible weekend express on some weekends)
this will spread out the services in Brooklyn and Queens
Btw, I saw FL9M #2024 again past Wilton station (IIRC) carrying a few blue-striped Shoreliners with trailing cab #6310. Nice to see running. Our train was to South Norwalk with Genesis #226 pushing our two CDOT Shoreliners with cab #6221.
Jimmy
"The American Pig"
"The Chapter 11 Choo Choo"
"The Jersey Mike"
"The The Big Bad"
Hey, it beats those dinky little red zip-strips at the ends.
Jimmy
Also, I believe the names were placed by donations from families and historical societies.
Jimmy
Mark
It's a range of hills about ten miles north of New Haven that indeed looks a lot like a sleeping giant. It's a state park with some terrific hiking trails. If I recall correctly - I haven't been there in almost ten years, back in my pre-railfan days - there's an old railroad ROW passing along one side of the hills.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Then you are not authorized to operate on that track.
That is part of knowing your track.
You must know where and of what kind, every single switch and aspect means before you can operate on that line.
And what it means depends of on the physical track layout, the nature of the diverging route, the nature of the through route.
We got a switch stand (well several of them actually) in town, only the main line switch is locked, the side tracks are not.
Interesting but even the mainline tracks coming into Dickinson are not locked, it is presuemed that every train will stop and adjust its own switches before entering the station. I suspect the track warrant will tell the crew which track to bring their train in on, but the position of the switches will be random depending on who used them last.
As to the issue on MN, clearly they are using a track that is not in normal passenger service, probably related to a switch rebuild somewhere.
Elias
Note that the canopy itself is the big swoopy shiny silver steel pieces, the lower squared off metal railing and decking is just the temporary construction scaffolding.
Also, the picture quality isn't super because this wasn't taken with a "real" camera, but instead just a quick snap with the built-in camera on my Nokia 3650 cell phone.
Finally, for a real bit of WMATA trivia, can you spot what's wrong with this picture?
How's it pronounced, BTW?
Some of the ad panels at Broadway (IND Crosstown) have been tiled over. The ad panels by the north end (where the South 4 St exits were) have been tiled over with white tiles, and a border of light green tiles has been added also.
Looks better than the black or yellow paint.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
But the retiling on Queens Blvd IND local stations is VERY noticable, as the new white tile almost appears to have a glow compared with its pre- WWII tile counterparts.
Jimmy
Now, can someone please reveal why these R-62As keep showing up on Queens Blvd? Only thing I can think of is they wanted to see the other end of Flushing Meadow Park....
David
Chaohwa
Well anyway that was more last week, cause this week they all seemed to be pretty much of the same lustre. Probably because they decided to use Jamaica's wash...
As for the purple stripes, they've been there since the first set of 62As appeared last summer. Corona sticks them on usually a week or two after they get a new set of cars.
So to recap what I was trying to say: Corona's car wash being out of service explains why all the cars with purple stickers, most of which have been under corona's control for over two months, are very dingy. The cars with blue stickers are shinier, since they just came from Livonia (which has a car wash), which is indicated by their still wearing their old stickers.
Jimmy
None taken. The Repiglicans and the Demhogcrats are the two major parties serving in the House of Repigsentatives and Swinate of the United Swines of America. The Pigsident appoints justices to the Sowpreme Court.
If NYCT's fees are so high that these companies go to other cities, NYCT should reconsider. Think of the money lost by going to other cities as opposed to accepting lower fees.
It's possible that the subway scene is being filmed in Los Angeles not because of NYCT's fees, but because most of the movie's cast and crew members live there.
Los Angeles rail lines shut down for a good number of hours nightly, so they can get filming done then.
NYC does have a film office which works with the studios.
And virtually impossible to make a Los Angeles subway car, station or portion of track look even a little like its New York counterpart. I suspect the filming is limited to street scenes with the subway background to suggest New York.
Tom
Location filming is expensive. If most of a movie can be filmed in a studio, with just a few scenes having a New York location (e.g. subway scenes), it's probably much cheaper to do all the work in Los Angeles with an "imitation" New York setting.
Look at "The Italian Job". The actors head down the stairs into the subway from in front of the Chinese Theater in Hollywood -- yet when they get down to the tracks, it's Blue Line trains!!
I noticed that yesterday also. And to go with my earlier observation that the signs were for shooting above ground rather than subway sequences, I noted that there are cables for movie lights run in the gutters along both sides of 7th Street for five blocks, and no parking from 6pm-6am signs in the same area.
Tom
On the #7 R62A trains, we get the worst of both worlds: transverse cabs that are not used by the conductors! All the disadvantages without the advantage.
The #7 R62A trains are configured with a five-car linked set on the east (Flushing-bound) end, and six singles on the west (Manhattan-bound) end. The five-car sets have transverse cabs permanently set up at each end; the train operator uses the east one on Flushing-bound trains, but the conductor never uses the other one, since on the Flushing line, the standard conductor position is between the sixth and seventh cars (counting east to west), and the transverse cab is always at the end between the fifth and sixth cars.
However, each station platform on the line has an "Alternate Position" conductor board (yellow with red stripes instead of white with black stripes) mounted between the fifth and sixth cars. Conductors would use this alternate position on the redbirds if, for example, there was a malfunction at the standard position.
Why can't the conductors on the R62A's use this alternate position in the transverse cabs? If we have to have them, let's at least use them.
This year, some people are lead to believe that it won't happen since a big amount of R62A's already occupy the 7's fleet, therefore making the shortchanging unnecessary. Anyway, we'll see what happens.
Jimmy
The Standards had the conductor's controls on the centers in each car, accessible to the public, and there never were any problems.
Peace,
ANDEE
Nowadays given the chance vandals would wreck those controls.
Peace,
ANDEE
and 4-car consists on the GCS.
You mean one 4 car consist running on track 3. The other tracks could not handle 4 cars because of the shorter platforms at Times Square.
Actually I think those Alternate boards are for 10 car trains. The TA rarely authorizes position changes unless its to the opposite transverse cab.
Anyone else have a better theory? Or the actual reason?
Why can a non-MTA-person run for 3 hours a train and nobody
knows it. If i have to drive a train and it doesn't come
i call a tower man, who knows where the train is.
Strange, if it has departed without me....
or don't they have static plans, where stands, which trains
the have to drive on work?
No, I wasn't operating, but I was there playing TSS telling OTHER kids how far to pull the SMEE. Back in the mid-60's, the IRT cars ALL worked JUST like an R10 ... in EVERY WAY except they did everything "faster" than the Arnines and LoV's I'd gotten to know before our little escapade. :)
It WAS in the newspapers back in 64/66 somewhere when I was at DeWitt Clinton HS at the time ... be a hoot if anyone can find reference to it, *I* couldn't. :(
But we found the "doctor's bag" on the platform, crew key open, dewd "up the stairs with the TMO" so we just snatched, grabbed, key closed. *I* was the one who walked back to car 6 to perform the rituals of the hot and cold water faucets ... "NEXT STOP, HELL!"
But it's OUT there, Van Courtlandt train theft, Saturday morning at I THINK around 9AM, cops unmder the el in radio cars, which is *WHY* we ditched north of 191 and just LEFT it there. Chow. :)
If anyone can find it in print (SWEAR it was real, but I wasn't paying real attention to date and time [train! Train! TRAIN! ***TRAIN***!!!!]) ... some of you might now understand *WHY* Selkirk hadta have soem TA on his social security folio ... heh. While I was one of the perps, wasn't ME that *ran* the purloined R17-22-whatever. I just made sure nobody could escape or walk out into thin air should we stop. However, I had *NO* religious affiliations with that crappy plywood on the angle metal hanging off the ceiling.
Alas, I worked Arnies. From up as HIGH as we stood to reach under and pull the *GUN* triggers below, you could SEE your motorman up front, and you could SEE your tail car no matter *HOW* curved the platform was... why? You could see OVER the damned celestory if you HAD to ... such was "assuming the position" ...
SERIOUSLY! (ON topic for the last few lines) ... it can be attributed back to Groucho Marx, but this is Unca Selkirk's DEMAND for that tombstone when my time comes (HOPEFULLY enough LIVING people to get involved, these ARE "we all gonna die" 1960's times, WITHOUT everybody being GUARANTEED to squirt. : )
I better go home, I'm fricken toast. Doing 24 hours with 12 hours' sleep to cycle works a few times a week ... been up for 30 hours. fall ocerm please don't anybody be offended if it takes me 12-16 hours of sleepytime before I remember what a smellchecker is. :)
I'd looooooove to find this on microfiche at a college library or
something which has papers dating back that far... It's a MOOving read.
You have to go to the 5th Avenue Library though.
If I were only a little younger, I would take that as a challenge. :-)
Tom
Shame on whoever was in charge of security, or was the Chief of the Transit Bureau at that point for letting it happen. More power to the people who are preventing it now.
Anyway, we came to a halt and the E/R called ZOO and mentioned that we were an R7. So the signal was knocked down and we had to wait the 4:30 of the timer to run. Finally, ZOO was able to display 64R again and we proceeded on a Slow Approach down the (in)famous K ladder. Back in the day the K ladder was a string of 3 turnouts and 4 double-slip switches that led from the #3 track out of BROAD to the Belmont connection with the Reading, connecting the 36th St Connector and the Hi-Line in between. Today, the hi-line connection is gone, but the K-ladder is still there however not used as much as the other tracks, so, on this gray and rainy day we sent off on an off road trip into rustville (pictures to come later). After weaving through some old freight yards we pulled directly in front of ZOO tower (the Engineer refrained from giving them the finger) and were spit out directly onto the center of the NEC (no longer under ZOO's control). Just before exiting no-mans land we passed a Wye movement (P42/40 being Wyed on the NY-Pittsburg Subway in preperation of an outbound train). Anyway, the delay wasn't all that bad, the NJT connection at Trent-town wasn't missed and a certain railfan got a very cool/exciting trip on a portion of rare/historic trackage.
I can't really blame the E/R' for not noticing the former 13R exit signal was not at APPROACH MEDIUM as the K-ladder is a valid routing and that would have resulted in the 32R displaying an APPROACH SLOW with the former 13R still at clear.
Here are some visual aides. Our little off-road trip started at 64R and ended at what used to be 192R. Keep in mind they are a little out of date and the section between the 73 turnout and 114R has been mostly straight railed.
Jimmy
Also, where do the tracks indentified as the 36th street originate from on the south end?
I find the Philly-area interlockings to be fascinating, but am trying to get my bearings.
http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/broad.gif"
and
http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/zoo.gif
AEM7
AEM7
Mark
Very touristy and Californian.
I would have try to link the System Advisories but I don't know how to, Sorry.
Robert
Heh... I was expecting something about Atlantic Avenue ;^)
Robert
Speaking of subway shuttles, other than the Queens Boulevard shuttle, have ATU and TWU garages combined for a subway GO bus service? (The 2 train shuttle buses were covered by TWU depots only.)
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
They also did this back in 2000-2001 and it was a BIG operation but there were no express shuttles. In the operation back in the early 1990's did they run have express shuttles? I wish I was able to ride a GM New Look on a shuttle bus but I was too youg to travel by myself on the subways.
Speaking of subway shuttles, other than the Queens Boulevard shuttle, have ATU and TWU garages combined for a subway GO bus service? (The 2 train shuttle buses were covered by TWU depots only.)
It seems so b/c on the 2 back on March 2/3, there were buses from all over except Staten Island then on the weekend of March 9/10 it was buses from Brooklyn & MaBSTOA only. I see that ATU & TWU joint operations are rarely done.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
In case you haven't been keeping track, service is still running on the old track, after many many postponements. Once the old track closes, I expect that one of the first orders of business will be to remove it and to connect the two pieces of the flyover from the new track.
Only looked on the track maps on this page.
MU's operate on both levels of GCT. Due to increased ridership it is now necessary to use the lower level on weekend whereas before it was closed on Saturday and Sunday for many years.
Locomotive-hauled trains can run on both levels but almost always us the upper level since that is where the electric hookups are for push-pull equiptment. In that way we can provide hotel services (i.e. lights, air-conditioning) while the train idles in the Terminal.
Electric MU's
ACMU, M-1A, M-3A --MTA owned
M-2,M-4,M-6 --- about half MTA owned, other half CDOT.
Push-Pull Equiptment
Shorliner I -- MTA and CDOT
Shoreliner II -- MTA
Shoreliner III -- MTA and CDOT
Center-Door (Push-pull) Equiptment
Shoreliner IV -- MTA and CDOT
Larry, RedbirdR33
on the left, M-3, 1978
John
Peace,
ANDEE
Robert
Peace,
ANDEE
Robert
Believe it or not, 370 Jay Street is D division.
Really? According to whom? I've never seen any bulletins or notices referring to 370 Jay Street as D Division.
David
Robert
B2 is IND. B1 is BMT.
Rotting junk that should've been scrapped a decade ago.
Still beats what the SIR has now, plus they had way better seats. Hmm, maybe we could move the Metro-North ACMUs there instead...? or are the SIR conductors too lazy to work manual doors now...? :-P
Jimmy
JONN
Try these:
R-62A (when new)
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_6043.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_24185.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_24186.jpg
R-40
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i5000/img_5241.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_5139.jpg
R-33 ML
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_3842.jpg
(features a ML R33 in kale green scheme!)
JONN
Red R30 on M line, 1989
Red R30 on J line, 1988
R10 on Rockaway line, 1986
R27 at 8th Ave on L line, 9/88
R27 on C line, 1989
And this L at 8th!.....orange doors, every inch covered in grafitti...sniff...sniff...it feels like home again.
Thank goodness that era of the subway is over, but it sure brings me back to a very happy time in my life.
Image 5545 is from after they stareted cleaning up the trains. That is when the R32 to R42 got their mini-cleanups, and all got blue doors. I think those 5 classes of cars looked the best of their lives at that point. They still had some color with the dark blue doors both inside and out, the R42's still had large stormdoor windows, and the R32-38's still had front rollsigns, and they didn't yet mess up the R40's side rollsign boxes.
It sure does. Actually I think it looked better on most of the equipment, including the LIRR's M1's.
I believe the R42's are the most attractive cars in the fleet (even now), but you sure couldn't beat their looks just after the grafitti was removed to before they had the real GOH.
I've enjoyed your breath ever since 96th Street.
R44/46 look good. Nice shapely figures.
The R44 looks much more like the M1. Heck, they were designed by the same people!
The pre-44's have some nice fluting on their sidewalls, the post 44's have a couple of ridges and that's about it.
Yes, the fluting is nice on the R32. On everything else, it looks downright nasty. The R42's fluting seems as if it were an attempt at preventing a totally bland car from being built, and its sorry looking.
The recessed door is also far superior.
I strongly disagree. I find the rounded front of the 44/46 to be much nicer than anything else in the system. That inset door seems like the TA messed something up.
And the TA just might order 75' cars in the future. To replace the existing ones.
No chance of that. Passenger loading is superior on 60 foot cars; the TA does not want more cars which cannot go everywhere on the B Division.
I also want the return of the railfan window
I also want the return of the railfan window
I also want the return of the railfan window
I also want the return of the railfan window
I also want the return of the railfan window
I also want the return of the railfan window
I also want the return of the railfan window
I also want the return of the railfan window
I also want the return of the railfan window
I also want the return of the railfan window
I also want the return of the railfan window
:)
:)
So you'd like to sit on somebody's head? :-)
Which is it that you really want - transverse seating (facing the direction of travel or backwards thereof) or longitudinal seating (facing the sides of the car)?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not on rush hour trains.
Those seats are usually the last to go, but they do go. That proves my point. Without "defining" seats, people will take up more room than they need.
LOL. 5 is the norm, and I ride the J almost daily. When I did ride it daily, it was mostly 5 people per bench. Tomorrow, look closer.
Whatever it is, I want window seats. The R1 thru R11 and R16 were all 60', yet had this seating arrangement.
Whatever it is, I want window seats. The R1 thru R11 and R16 were all 60', yet had this seating arrangement.
But the MTA now does, and has a lot of objective data to support it. The original decision proved to be a mistake. Railbuff sentiment doesn't count for much (and that's appropriate).
It's a load of crap.
Wrong. On crowded platforms ten 60 foot cars offer more entry and exit than 8 75 foot cars. This is what the MTA balanced against the promise of reduced maintenance and operating cost (8 cars vs. 10).
If you want data, write to Doug Sussman at MTA; he'll be happy to send you the stats. The Straphangers also can point you to some well-thought out analyses. If you're interested enough, you can read the material for yourself.
"75' cars have dominated the Queens Blvd IND, the most heavily used B division route in the system."
75' cars are not able to operate on many BMT routes (such as the Jamaica Line) so the places MTA can use them include IND lines in Queens and the Bronx. They were mainly intended for the SAS, not built yet.
You have it backward. They don't "dominate" Queens Blvd. They are on Queens Blvd. (and Bronx bound IND) because that is where MTA can run them. As the 60 foot cars begin to replace them, those cars will be more flexibly deployed throughout the system.
Four routes on Queens Blvd:
E - R32-38 (forgot which)
R - mostly R46
F - R46
V - 100% R46
G - R46 (weekends)
...sounds like domintation to me.
Trucks "dominate" the LIE not because they're so great compared to cars. It's because the government doesn't allow them to run on any other highway in the area.
I like riding the 75' cars - but I understand why there will be no more of them.
I guess I unserstand what you are trying to say, but there are only three lines they can't run them on, the J, M, and L. Every other line can use them. When they order the new R160's, the same problem will still exist. Some of the R160's will be in 5 car sets, and the others will be in 4 car sets. The ones in 4 car sets will be for the Eastern Division, but the ones in 5 car sets will be just as inflexible as the 75 foot cars are now, as they will not be able to run in serive on the same 3 lines, the J, M, and L.
Now here's how I would do it:
Have A-B-B-A sets and "A" singles.
Franklin S: A|A|A
G: A|A-B-B-A|A or A|A|A|A|A|A
C,J,L,M,Z: A-B-B-A|A-B-B-A or A|A|A|A|A|A|A|A (try to avoid too many of the latter)
A,B,D,E,F,N,Q,R,Rock Pk S,V,W: A-B-B-A|A|A|A-B-B-A or A|A-B-B-A|A-B-B-A|A [10-car train of all singles is not really cost-effective]
David
Personally, I think that the cost benefit heavily outweighs the loading perspective. It's 4 less trucks per train. Those 4 trucks alone save a lot of money, not counting parts loaded in the carbodies. It is truly a shame that the MTA is not considering replacing at least SOME of the 75' cars with 75' cars OR articulated units similar to the BMT D-types. But I think they are making the decision with the best intentions in mind.
We're arguing 2 different points here. You're arguing the 32 door vs. 40 door thing. I'm arguing that that "thing" doesn't affect service in any detrimental way.
You have it backward. They don't "dominate" Queens Blvd. They are on Queens Blvd. (and Bronx bound IND) because that is where MTA can run them. As the 60 foot cars begin to replace them, those cars will be more flexibly deployed throughout the system.
There are 650ish R46's assigned to Queens Blvd. There are less than 380 R32's. There are plenty of existing 60' cars in the fleet to equip Queens Blvd completely, if the TA wanted to. You'd think that the most heavily used B division line would want to take every opportunity to quicken service. Yet 27 years later, the 75' cars are still there, and are going nowhere.
Like I said, it's total crap.
Which single yard could take those 650ish R-46's and replace with with 810ish 60-foot cars? It's convenient to keep all the R-46's together, and Jamaica is where they fit.
The Queens Boulevard local is perfectly adequately served by 75-foot cars. The express is now dominated by 60-foot cars. Except for the R-32's that float over to the R for whatever reason, every local based out of Jamaica uses R-46's, leaving as many R-32's as possible for the crowded expresses.
How about Coney Island? They can also thrown in the R68/A's if neccessary, and put them only on the R and V lines. The E, F, and G would have R40/M cars, and the N,Q (local and diamond),W would have R-46, with some R-32's on the Q diamond. What do you think? (Also sounds real sweet from a railfan's point of view, imagine R-40 slants on the Crosstown and the Culver! I really really wish they would do that.)
Actually, wrong. Not counting the newly arrived R143's, putting a lot of 60 foot cars on Queens Blvd. would have created shortages elsewhere, in places where the 75 foot cars can't go.
"We're arguing 2 different points here. You're arguing the 32 door vs. 40 door thing. I'm arguing that that "thing" doesn't affect service in any detrimental way."
But it does. The fact that you haven't bothered to look it up before you posted doesn't change that. Write MTA, read their reply, and then we'll talk.
I agree. This should really be the standard we use to judge the cars. There are more doors on the 60' cars but how valid is the Spanish galleon argument (galleons, the larger ship, were constructed because it was cheaper to build one very large ship than two smaller ones)?
This still takes too narrow a view though. We could also consider articulated cars and really should to be proper. For all of our technologcal prowess and modern niceties there are features which even, say, the BMT D-types beat. For example, in terms of seating efficiency our R-143 cars are bested by a very old design.
Sometimes I really wonder why articulation is not considered. Or is it rejected for some reason I cant think of?
Except the LIRR's new M-7's make you realize what garbage the M-1's and M-3's really are.
The trucks are cooler looking too, even if they suck. :)
What's really assinine about the M-7s is they're 30,000 lbs heavier than the M-1/'3s, hold fewer passengers, and have a lousey interior layout. I don't care WHAT ADA and the FRA said, it's a shitty design.
Too bad Budd's not in the business, I bet they would have been able to make a lighter, yer still FRA compliant railcar, and do a better job at it. Love or hate the stainless look, Budd knew how to engineer a car with it and use stainless's advantages to make a better railcar.
The M-1s withstood the test of time, they've proven to be a safe railcar, and they've managed to not totally fall apart despite the LIRR's (non) maintenance.
What really drives me nuts is Bomardier's recent stuff is so half assed. Really, you're telling me that with the much lighter, smaller AC propulsion system, computer aided design and computer modeling, better alloys, and computer simulation, a tier I EMU has to weigh 125,000 lbs?
Efficiency gains or not with AC, it'll be fun to watch these things run 12 car sets durring the rush. I bet the MTA kicks the somewhat fast acceleration rates down to the sluggish as hell rate the M-1s have (made worse by crews refusing to let the controller do it's job and instead notching manually), to keep substations from going *pop*.
It's sad, Budd made the Silverliners come in at about 100,000 lbs, the M-1s come in 10,000 lbs less, and Bombardier can't even come close 30 years later, with today's technology and today's design capabilities...
I've read the TEL's patents, I'm not convinced the design solves any problems of prior ones.
Oddly, the TEL has truck mounted traction motors - I wonder if the Acelas do too, as it was based off the Acela design. That would be interesting, as body mounted motors are the defacto standard for HSR, AFAIK.
I don't think Bombardier is incapeable of engineering a decent product per se, its just that they don't bother with the North American market because there's so few builders who will build for the market, they inevitably get the contract by default.
Look at the ALP-46 Vs the HHP-8. They offer (effectively) identical performance, are built to identical safety regulations, yet the ALP-46 is 11 tons lighter than the HHP-8. Theoretically, if Bombardier is optimizing their designs, this shouldn't be happening.
I'd really like to know specifically what puts the M-1's body out of FRA compliance, as the M-6s are the same design and were delivered in the late 90's.
Then again, I'd like to know why the FRA is requiring the LIRR order equipment designed to withstand accident screnarios that simply won't happen on the LIRR. AFAIK, there hasn't been a serious train-train collision on the LIRR in nearly 50 years, there haven't been any passenger-freight collisions at any significant speed, and the ASC system has been proven to be safe and effective. In that light, it's perfectly valid to ask why the train cars even have to be designed to withstand collisions with heavy freights - which do not even operate on the LIRR - at high speeds - an accident of which type has been exceedingly rare on the LIRR.
Boeing used an argument like this with the FRA w.r.t ETOPS (Extended Twin OPerationS over water, or 'engines turn or passengers swim') and the 777 - there were so few instances of more than one engine shutting down in flight on jets that the long 'proving period' before ETOPS capeability was granted was really not needed.
IMHO, an LIRR MU design should be more focused on grade crossing accident safety factors, fire resistance, and derailment stability, since these are considerably more likely to happen than a train -train collision. IMHO, the M-1s have proven to do well in derailments, though I don't think the design is as fire safe or grade crossing safe as it should be. But that's no reason to discard the entire body design in favor of a new one.
I guess part of the blame should go to the FRA, who seems to think a train line is a train line is a train line. The operations and environment of the LIRR is significantly different from the rest of the US, and thus it makes sense that regulations should be ore tailored to it's unique needs, especially in the light that the equipment WON'T travel off LI anyway. Even if it did, it would roam the NEC which, once again is not the rest of the US and has it's owe unique requirements. The prescence of cab signalling and automatic controls, plus significantly higher speeds, and a different mix of freight Vs passenger make it and the LIRR (and parts of NJT and MN too) different from the rest of the US, and they should IMHO be regulated differently as such.
Agreed, I rode a few M-7's and can't wait until they take over the LIRR. The LIRR can't send the M-1's to Mexico fast enough AFAIK !
The M-3's are another story, They have a horrible stiff ride and vibrate at high speeds. Try reading a newspaper and holding it still whent he M-3's are at speed.
Bill "Newkirk"
#3 West End Jeff
We need a R32 picture, pre-GOH!
R-46: same as the R-44, except the A/C is awesome. Nice and cold.
R-68: pretty blah. nothing spectacular, but they get the job done.
Wow, you're a choice man for words, huh? I love the R68. They have that interior shines. Too bad it's prone to vandalism.
I also like the R44/46. If you look closely at the light orange wallpaper, you'll notice it has a repeating design of the New York State Emblem...I think.
David
The question is how they will age from this point forward. There seems to be a lot of brown spots on the car bodies, and the floors are showing some wear. They are going to need some significant maintenance soon, and I don't think they are scheduled for it.
If the entire R160 order goes through, the R44/R46s will be the last cars remaining from the inferior maintenance era.
If the entire R160 order goes through, the R44/R46s will be the last cars remaining from the inferior maintenance era.
Well I don't think the R160 order will replace ALL of the R32-R44 rolling stock right away but there's no way the R46 will be affected.
Well I don't think the R160 order will replace ALL of the R32-R44 rolling stock right away but there's no way the R46 will be affected.
That's what he said. If all of the R160's are purchased, then ONLY the R44/46 will be left from deferred maint.
Where can I get some melamine? I think it would be useful around the house.
Well, you could start right here... would you prefer Bob the Builder, Winnie the Pooh, or TeleTubbies? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The ones from the early '50s WERE real wood bodies - not just veneer. Woodies faded in popularity for a while, although some were made with real wood veneer in the mid-'50s, along with a few with imprinted vinyl; the wood look really began its return to popularity in 1960 with Ford's heavy promotion of the Country Squire. Interestingly enough, Ford and Mercury were the only ones with wood grain styling in the early '60s; GM didn't follow suit until 1966, and both Chrysler and AMC added it at about the same time (not sure of the exact year). By 1970 nearly 40% of full-sized wagons and over 30% of mid-sized wagons were built with wood grain; this percentage fell off slightly over the next couple of years and plunged in 1973 when all the major manufacturers focused their promotional efforts elsewhere. Ford full-sized wagons actually increased their percentage with the 1973-78 body series, to over 70% one year, but they were the exception to the general rule.
I'm not sure when the last wood-grained wagon was built; probably 1996, with the last of the rear-drive full-sized GM wagons. Ford's last big one was 1991, although the Escort may have had a woody model for another year or two, and Chrysler's last station wagon period was built in 1989; they did offer wood grain on the minivan through the mid-'90s and it's currently available on the PT Cruiser (not sure what to call that thing).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Then it would look like a ski lodge in there, very good for the romantic mood.
Then one would add a hot tub and open all of the windows. The air is cold, the hot tub is boiling hot. It's like SWEDEN man, SWEDEN.
All of this because they couldn't take out all the seats and poles and install levels.
Yes your correct although it looks more of a light brown color.
It has both that and the sigilum civitatis Novi Eboraci (seal of the City of New York).
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
1. The fact that you can't lie down on a subway car doesnt mean it sucks. In fact, most people look down on those who lie down on subway cars.
2. You do not want to go from one car to another on a R68 since theres the lack of safety handles.
3. The mixed seating is the reason your fellow straphander (or commuter, whatever term you use) doesn't sock you one in the kisser when you try to look out a railfan window at the height of rush hour.
4. I don't know about you but I prefer not to have a semi band-aid color as the scheme for the subway car's I'm riding.
Skells also like the E because it's entirely underground and you don't have to get off at either terminal.
I don't understand why the E can't be "fumigated" at one or both terminals. Just because the train isn't going onto a relay track does not mean that the skells have a right to remain onboard. It would make the E a much better ride for normal passengers.
The lack of that option is a not a plus is that I mean. When you had to get up early and you're blasted a nice big bench might be just what's called for.
You do not want to go from one car to another on a R68 since theres the lack of safety handles.
I know, they SHOULD have safety handles. The lack of linear egress is a design flaw.
The mixed seating is the reason your fellow straphander (or commuter, whatever term you use) doesn't sock you one in the kisser when you try to look out a railfan window at the height of rush hour.
Huh?? What?? That makes no sence? The 44/46/68's don't even have FRW's.
I don't know about you but I prefer not to have a semi band-aid color as the scheme for the subway car's I'm riding.
Yes...80's orange is OH so pleasing on the eyes. There's a reason we invented the 90's and the Units, it's because the 80's sucked.
Lying down on a train is a violation of NYCT regulations and can lead to ejection or a summons.
The current decade is called the naughties.
R44s have very small one, even smaller than that of the R62, but its there. And not smear-o-vision either.
I happen to like the interior scheme. Its better than tan, tan and more tan with blue seats, or plain metal with alternating lines of reflective/not-so-reflective.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
David
Now that's hell of a lot to be said about car classes that are anywhere between 20 to 34 years older than the "newer equipment" and at the same time be that much more reliable than the "newer equipment" save for the R68As.
As for the R44s, they are doing something with them, because I rarely deal with trains breaking down on the "A" these days. Back in the '80s, that was an every hour occurence. Even the a/c has gotten better since last year-much to my surprise.
I know, I was shocked when I rode a R44 [5296] recently and I felt cool A/C I couldn't believe it :-0! We know how bad those A/C units are.
Having been on every type of subway car currently in revenue service (and a few ones that have now been retired) with the exception of the R32GE and R40Ms, I would have to agree with Mike and say the R44, R46, R68, and R68A are some of the worst cars ever designed for the NYC subway. They are so big, they can not run on every line, they have increased dwell times, they do not provide passage from car to car (most New Yorkers seem to expect this "luxury"), and they lack railfan windows.
To me that's the best feature. The inset doors always seemed distracting to me.
Boo…:-P
I love the 75ft cars. My favorite is the R-46, and my nephew loves the R-44s. I grew up with the R-46s racing up and down Queens Blvd. Before the GOHs, the R-46s had great speed and felt way faster than the slow Brightliners. I loved passing the slower local trains from the express tracks. I love watching these beautiufl cars enter and exit subway stations. I love hearing the bing-bong of each closing door. What’s so bad about the color scheme? Sure it’s orange and beige, but I don’t think it’s ugly. The recent bonnet repainting has made the cars look sharper. They look great with or without their blue stripe. Passengers love the cars for their smooth ride and seating arrangement, and many E train riders wish for their return. I like the LCDs because they are readable and easily display route information. I know they don’t have railfan windows, but how often can you get a railfan window on commuter or passenger rail?
More often than you think. SEPTA has nearly all railfan views, LIRR/MNRR M<7 cars as well as MNRR shoreliner III's ACMU's and Shoreliner I's all have RFV's. NJT Comet IV and V's have RFV's. Metra Gallery cars and Hi-liners have railfan windows. Amtrak has a reverse railfan view.
That's true, but I've encounted many situtations where the first car was closed to passengers.
As for the R46 there are as old as I am. I was born in 1973 and remeber as I got older seeing them out my windows at Luna Park. I remenber seeing the different ways they put cars on the ABBA, AABA order, and seeing all the red light when the doors were open. I also rember them cutting the train down to four car on the Nights and sometime the Weekends.
Robert
#3 West End Jeff
I wish I could've ridden those rolling stocks.
By 1979, when I started working in lower Manhattan, I would shun the trains of R44s on the E, to ride the old R10s on the CC. Now, in the 21st century, I find myself actually LIKING them. And, I could like them a great deal more if they had narrow cabs and a railfan window. But, you can't have everything.......
Please. There is overexaggeration of traverse cabs and RFW needs on this board. I enjoy the ride and look of the cars themselves. I don't mind railfanning once in a while, but it also feels good just to sit down and gaze out the window...provided you're not on a R68.
Of course, the R68/A's have the opposite, complete shine. :)
www.forgotten-ny.com
Without getting into it, I have extenuating circumstances that have come up. Check...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Only the far western end of the North Shore line is scheduled for reopening soon, in order to provide rail service to the Howland Hook ship terminal. Any resumption of service on the rest of the line is nothing but mere speculation.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
I finally arrived EARLY to meet Jersey Mike at the Penn Basement. After our meeting we set forth on the northbound 7th Avenue line. After a long wait, a 2 showed up, which we passed up in favor of the railfan reverse peephole on the R-62, so we got on the 3. Then we had to wait for the 2 a long time at 135th Street. It was there that a local nut informed me that I had forgotten to remove a sticker from my pants. Nuts are very helpful people. On our return trip to 241, I called Chapter 11 Choo Choo arranging our meeting at the Rupert Jee Hello Deli. To get there, we changed for the 1 at 72nd Street, then to the D at 59th Street, but only because the 1 was running semi-express on the local track. Mike and I split the Jude Brennan and the Shaffer. The next portion of our trip took us from 7th Avenue on the D to 161st Street-Yankee Stadium, where we saw the new platform level toilets heypaul first mentioned on this board. I couldn’t immediately find the escalator so we were forced to take the escalator. The 161 renovation looks EXQUISITE. After a trip to Woodlawn and back on an R-142, we changed at Union Square to the 6 and at B’way-Laf for the F or V (I don’t remember) to West 4th to look at the tower there. We left at West 4th Street and accessed 9th Street on the PATH, which at the west end includes a ridiculously narrow platform bit. PATH took us to Hobojoe Which brought us to the only part of the HHGT that I’ve never been on. Yada, yada, yada, I now have a new NJT Rail System map.
The final New York aspect of the trip involved PATH at Exchange Place to Newark, and then the NJT NEC. We then rode the R7 to Market East and PATCO to Haddonfield, which is in desperate need of Gazebo reform.
The 7/11 trip report, including a visit to 7-11 is yet to come.
Question, on the whole trip my train barely exceeded 80 mph, evem between MIDWAY and FAIR. What is up with this? Is NJT still breaking in the ALP-46 and Comet V's at low speeds?
-----------------------------------------
I don't get what you are trying to say?
Second mention of escalator: INCORRECT, should be ELEVATOR.
What is HHGT?
Yada, yada, yada, I now have a new NJT Rail System map.
Funny!
The HBLR is incorrect as it does not yet go to Bergen county, making it a Hudson-Hudson and Light Rail is really just a Glorified Trolley.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R160
On 7/11, Jersey Mike and I each rode PATCO out to Philadelphia. I had breakfast at a place on 17th and JFK where there was some confusion and I got a free sandwich in addition to the meal I paid $7 for.
The next part of the trip involved the purchase of INEPTA day passes at Suburban Station for our ride to Pattison (the last part of the BSS I haven’t been on), there we looked at the Sports Complex, including the FU Center, FU Spectrum and the poor vet, which will soon treat its last patient. We also caught glimpses of the new horribly named Lincoln Financial Field and Citizen’s Bank Park. This trip was mostly a TOURIST trip for me and the railfanning beyond this point was more for transportation than for sightseeing. Upon return to City Hall, we transferred to the MFL and rode that to 5th/Independence where we visited the Independence Hall and the Federal Reserve Bank of Philadelphia (which has a state quarter dispenser) and saw the new replacement for the National Articles of Confederation Center. Then we rode the MFL to the Reading Terminal Market and Pennsylvania Convention Center (we checked out a little of the latter as the atrium is in the old Reading train shed), this included a pizza-based lunch at the RTM. After the RTM, we went out to City Hall, which is MUCH cooler than the New York equivalent and got on the Subway-Way at Juniper for a ride to 19th.
THIS COMPLETES THE SET. I have now been in every part of the Philadelphia subway. I just have never ridden the 101 and 102 and the way part of all of the Subway-Way lines.
At 19th we saw the portal the trains use on their run from Suburban Station to Urban Station at 30th Street. After a short walk to Logan Square and back where we saw a BUDD plane outside the (Franklin) Institute, we rode the S-W and the MFL back to 5th/Independence (where 70s+Patriotic=Bicentennial) and walked around the Old City and Society Hill. We boarded the MFL at 2nd. Mike left at 8th for PATCO and I continued on expecting to walk along the Ben Franklin Pkwy from Logan Square to the Art Museum. I remembered a cute little marzipan piggy I saw at the Reading Terminal Market and got off at 13th (and walked back underground) to go and buy it since it was almost 6. After searching for the store for some time, and then finding it, I ditched the proposed walk, although I did make it to 19th on the Subway-Way. Once there I went to 7-11 at 19th and JFK and got a 64-ounce “Double Gulp” containing a Slurpee in that new yellow-flavored Mountain Dew flavor. At Suburban Station, I bought a two intermediate zone ticket from the ticket window and got on the 6:14 R7 to Trenton. I used the Day Pass for the part of the trip to Levittown, but the conductor didn’t collect any tickets between there and Trenton (Trenton is in zone 6, the Day Pass regional rail trip only works until zone 5), so now I have an extra SEPTA ticket. DOES ANYONE WANT AN EXTRA SEPTA TICKET?
Rest of the Trip involved a NJT Comet 5 to Penn, R-40 Slant from 34th to Kings Highway on the Q, 1994 CNG TMC RTS-06 to home on the B100.
First, let me make a remark about train signage: The TA needs to establish a standard for trains signage. I saw 2 N trains today. One indicated a north terminal of 36th St, another indicated shuttle. Need to pick one. Second was this Brown R train. They should have told All R to's to use a < R > instead of the (R) that was used. Or even better would have been to sign up the train's north end as "Special" and it's south end as "R".
Now then, to the observations. So, I was on this Brown R, and we're leaving Fulton St. A woman notices something ain't normal, and asks, "Is this train going to 14th st?" I shake my head no, and say that we're running on the J line, but someone else has decided to 'correct' me and say that we're going to 14th st. No big deal to me. I left it alone, because We're at Chambers, and I need a lex local (All trains running local. Fabulous service!)
The way home was downright appalling though. I decided to transfer at Canal st. I have to use the bridge platform to get from the 6 to the J. There were huge crowds waiting for a bridge train! I wanted to yell out: "THERE'S NO TRAINS COMING HERE!" but I didn't, mostly cuz I really didn't want to seem crazy. So I get to the J/M/Z plat, and there are ridiculous amounts of people confused by REGULAR signage. A sign saying that a stairway is for Brooklyn Q/W trains and both directions of 6/n/r trains is construed by at least 5 people as Brooklyn for ALL of the aforementioned trains. All signs to the broadway platform indicate that it is an N/R platform when neither train is running there. I had to explain to one guy multiple times that to get to 28th st, he had to take the W.... but on the platform for the N/R. In 10 minutes I helped at least 10 people, some with confusion regarding regular service patterns! The TA needs to do something about this. Or maybe, you guys can organize a subtalk fieldtrip to help these poor helpless people.
Tomorrow, I'm going to try helping more people on my way home. Some I just can't help though: I only speak english.
Jul 12, 2003 05:19:46 PM
Rail Delay: Due to a late relay train Northeast Corridor Line train #7878, the 4:13pm departure from Trenton, is operating with 15-minute delays.
All other NJ TRANSIT buses, trains and light rail lines are operating on or close to schedule.
The trains that are used only during rush hours or ball games is a "RAD" train, or "run as directed". These are quite rare on commuter rail since capacity is key, so an RAD is always better off as a scheduled extra.
AEM7
In the pic above, there is a train station. Chapter 11 cho cho label is as Tenefly rail and bus plaza. What train stops here? NJT? What line? Notice that there are no arms on the crossing gates.
No train stops there. The last passenger trains that ran there were the Erie-Lackawanna trains and service was discontinued sometime during the 1960s. The line used to run to Nyack, NY.
There are some plans afoot to extend the Hudson-Bergen LRT’s northern terminus up to this station. Sorely needed, too; eastern Bergen County is a nightmare, what with road traffic being so congested there during rush-hours…
The ROW still has room for two tracks, in case you are wondering.
Peace,
ANDEE
Also, the station does have a platform: It's a low platform, which is on or only slightly above ground level.
which runs to Nyack, NY
Which ran to Nyack. Tracks are long gone (trains were cut back to Sparkill almost four decades ago IIRC); the furthest north they go is either Sparkill, NY or Northvale, NJ. No tracks into Piermont either, which was the Erie RR’s original terminus.
and connects to all the Erie branches on the approach to Hoboken
No connection to any tracks into Hoboken currently exist. AFAIK the Northern never connected at West End, instead using the Arches or the tunnel and going adjacent to the National Docks branch, but I could be mistaken about that.
hence the E at the PATH station
The letter “E” in question appears on the support pillars on the platforms; this being at the Pavonia/Newport station on the PATH system, and indeed stands for Erie Terminal.
i did PATCO style driving -- starting from a standing stop i would accelerate at maximum power until i hit linespeed, then coast until speed drops below maximum, and accelerate again until i reach maximum... and so on. just like a real PATCO train. oh, and i was driving the thing like a locomotive too -- two toots on the horn before i move, and extensive use of coasting to match my speed to the progression of traffic light cycles, gentle deceleration cycles if i can see the signal ahead is at stop.
people were scared of me because the thing is so damn huge. so even if i was only in 1 lane, they left the other lane clear, so it was easy to switch lanes.
subway content: i don't think i could have moved house in a subway train.
AEM7
What we need for real proff, er proof, is that happening to a number of trains in succession.
Now, try to explain to these people what's going on at Exchange place. You'll have better luck trying to explain the theory of relativity.
Since December and the rebuilt WTC station are not too far off, they are pretending on the map that Exchange Place is just the WTC service cut back.
FWIW.
John
;file=r32
file=R32
Change the R32's to R143.
Some of the announcements were unexpected.
At Park Place: "This is Park Place. Transfer is available to the A and E trains." [No C and no PATH -- both correct right now, but how did it know? But it was wrong about the E. Late night program, maybe? But why does the 3 have a late night program at all?]
At 14th Street: "This is 14th Street. Transfer is available to the 1, F, and L trains. Connection is available to PATH trains." [Okay, so it's definitely running either the late night or the weekend program.]
At Times Square: "This is Times Square-42nd Street. Transfer is available to the 1, 7, A, C, E, N, Q, and R trains. Transfer is available to the W train. Transfer is available to the shuttle to Grand Central. Connection is available to the Port Authority Bus Terminal." [HUH? Both the N and the W? And why does the W get its own special announcement? Oh, and the C's back, along with the R and shuttle, so this isn't the late night program after all.]
"This is a Harlem-One Hundred Forty-Eighth Street-bound 3 express train!"
By the way, is the voice of the 3 line announcements the same as the voice of the 2 or of the 5, or is it yet another person?
It occurred to me later that I don't think I heard a single concatenative announcement. (The 2 announcements, OTOH, are mostly concatenative, except for a few prerecorded ones, like "Transfer is available to the 3 train" and "Transfer is available to the 1 and 9 trains.") Perhaps that's why the W was listed separately and the N was included -- nobody bothered to rerecord the main announcement. OTOH, shouldn't concatenative announcements still be available as a fallback in cases like this?
Why not in all cases?
Here is a recording I made while on my R-142 on the 3 trip:
This is a Harlem bound 3 train
There's PATH Service at the WTC!?!?
But it was wrong about the E.
Connection is available to the E all times.
There was no transfer to the E this weekend at Park Place for the same exact reason there was no transfer to the C: weekend GO's. On a typical weekend, both are available.
Yeah, its kinda funny when some C/R's cut off the announcement with the loud DING!
There was a GO that had no weekend C or E service at Park Pl? How'd that one work?
C service was suspended entirely, and the A ran local. (IMO, the service that ran should have been called the C, but you know how I feel and I know how you feel, so let's leave it at that.) The E ran via the F between Roosevelt and 2nd Avenue. (The F, OTOH, ran via the C SB from W4 to Jay, so E and F trains each ran the "wrong" way after W4, and 2nd Avenue was a dead end for SB passengers. There was remarkably little confusion at 2nd -- even though the SB local track wasn't taped off, I didn't see anybody waiting at it, and everyone who boarded the E on the SB "express" track either knew or had a hunch that it was going uptown.)
The 3's real late night program would be the same program that would normally be used early Sunday Mornings, the Lenox Shuttle, from 135th Street to 148th Street. This is a 135th Street bound 3 train...., local service on the (3) line. The only thing needed in that program would be a transfer is available to the 2(most likely they will just say this is the last stop....)
THIS IS ATLANTIC AVE. (pause) TRANSFER IS AVAILABLE TO THE 3,4,5,B,D,N,Q, AND R TRAINS. CONNECTION IS AVAILABLE TO LONG-ISLAND RAILROAD.
I hope I keep hearing the bell at PARK PLACE on the 2 to cut off the recording for the PATH connection.
LOL, those automated announcements really get annoying after a while.
At 8 Ave, I remembered the GO being the A was the only train running. And 14 St was packed with people. So we got back on the L to 6 Ave and took the 2 to Times Square.
Our final line was the 7. Once again, women galore, but no redbirds waiting. We took the 7 to Main Street, then changed ends and boarded R62A 2099. Once again, we had our RFW to ourselves. My pal doesn't like sharing the window with others. I'm an only acception. Leaving Main St, we finally saw an eastbound redbird entering Willets Point. And the sunset with the city was worth a few pics. But I don't own a digicamera as of yet. Finally, I got off at Grand Central and my friend continued to Times Square to head back to Riverdale. Caught a 5 running local and took it to my home stop: 68 St-Hunter College. Today was a perfect day to surf the subway. I had a good time and someday, we Subtalkers can surf one day together, just as long as we don't meet at Times Square on the 7. TOO DARN HOT.
Jimmy
Got me.
I clicked to read thinking you were up up and splatting!
Jimmy
Jimmy
Jimmy
Former Houston Mayor Robert Lanier, a past Chairman of the Houston METRO Authority was quoted back in 1990, in the
Houston Metropolitan Magazine, (page 49):
"First they [rail's supporters] say `It's cheaper.'
When you show it costs more, they say, `It's faster.'
When you show it's slower, they say, `It serves more riders.'
When you show there are fewer riders, they say, `It brings economic development.'
When you show no economic development, they say, `It helps the image.'
When you say you don't want to spend that much money on image, they say `It will solve the pollution problem.'
When you show it won't help pollution, they say, finally, `It will take time for rail to do some good.'"
In the unbiased opinion of this board, do the arguments have merit?
Trouble is, they are all TRUE!!
Light rail is NOT cheaper (except maybe than heavy rail....)
It will NOT be faster (the routing will take 90 minutes, where buses now do it in 55 from end-to-end!)
Economic development? Yeah, right, tear up the streets, make allt he business go broke while construction is undeway at a funereal pace.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Look at San Jose -- built their light rail system, and it has fallen below projections...nobody even uses it on weekends. And their transit agency is going broke (or already is, I should say....)
David
But some places it is basically a white elephant. San Jose, I cited, as the prime example. Hopefully it won't get built, but what they are planning for Orange County is a joke, too (and I actually work for the transit agency involved). I understand that Minneapolis-St. Paul didn't exactly want it, but it got built, and now they're trying to scrape up some $$$ to actually run the thing so it WILL head for success.
And if traffic congestion gets worse, what do you replace the bus with? Helicopters and tiltrotors?
And if traffic gets worse -- the light rail will go even slower, asit is running right there in the streets with the traffic.
There is operating cost data in the National Transportation Database, which is available on the web broken down by mode.
Here are some highlights for agencies that operate both bus and rail systems for 2001.
Agency, Bus$/V-Hour, Bus$/V-Mile, HR$/V-Hour, HR$/V-Mile, LR$/V-Hour, LR$/VMile
NYCT, $110.40, $13.97, $123.88, $6.79, -, -
MTA(MD), $100.83, $8.35, $223.53, $8.78, $184.18, $11.67
WMATA, $101.32, $9.03, $195.60, $8.79, -, -
MBTA, $8.50, $94.76, $217.67, $9.89, $245.89, $16.39
SEPTA, $98.05, $9.49, $129.23, $7.07, $129.83, $13.47
NJT, $101.46, $8.89, -, -, $365.77, $33.03
METRO (Houston), $82.03, $4.39, -, -, -, -
On a mode by mode comparison within the same agency, it would appear that on a per mile basis the cost in ascending order is: heavy rail; bus; light rail.
Dividing the cost/V-Hour by the cost/V-Mile gets the average speed. It would appear that light rail is faster than bus service in most but not all markets.
HOWEVER, the cost for Houston's METRO's bus service is significantly lower and the speed is higher than all other markets. The magnitude of the differences between Houston's bus service costs and speed raises some questions as to whether the level of service is at all comparable.
Heavy rail is of course faster than surface modes in congested areas, because it by-passes traffic congestion on the surface.
Light rail shares the speed advantage only if running on its own tracks in congested areas.
Light rail running along streets seems no different from streetcars, and has no speed advantage (unless it stops less frequently).
What was Robert Lanier comparing rail to? If it was an existing bus service, he could well be right. I know this is Subtalk not Bustalk, but buses might have been the right answer for Houston.
Was there any more of the article, so we can put this quotation in context?
John
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/transport-policy/message/29717
The original message text was as follows:
"I'm sure this will stoke some discussion:
http://marypirg.org/MD.asp?id2=10123&id3=MD
(the square at the end, after =MD, should be ampersand, number, one)
For immediate release:
June 9, 2003 For more information contact:
Brad Heavner (410) 467-0439
Dan Pontious (410) 323-9780
Brent Flickinger (410) 539-1369
Rail Transit Beats Expectations: Survey Of Rail Systems In U.S. Cities Finds Rail Is Popular And Leads To Revitalization
Baltimore - A study of rail-based public transit systems in nine U.S. cities found that ridership has surpassed expectations in nearly every case and that rail systems have boosted redevelopment around transit stations. The study suggested that Baltimore could reap similar benefits from expanding its rail system.
"Rail is clearly the way to go, judging from the experiences of cities that have gone before us," said Brad Heavner, executive director of the MaryPIRG Foundation. "People are riding rail in numbers beyond expectations, and this has led to revitalization of urban neighborhoods."
The new report, Rail Transit Works: Light Rail Success Stories from Across the Country, analyzes the popularity of transit systems in six states and Washington, D.C. Among the findings:
. Ridership was 40 percent higher than projected after a recent light rail expansion in Denver. Ridership in the first year of rail service in St. Louis was 3.5 times higher than expected. Salt Lake City's system is transporting 50 percent more riders every day than anticipated.
. Some transportation needs are met predominantly by transit. For example, 50 percent of morning commuters across San Francisco Bay use heavy rail, and 70 percent of trips to MCI Center in Washington, D.C. are via transit.
The study comes as Maryland Secretary of Planning Robert Flanagan has announced that heavy rail will not be considered for Baltimore. A wide array of organizations and decision makers is urging the Secretary to reconsider.
"This report shows what more and more people around the country are discovering-that high quality transit systems make for more transportation choices and more attractive communities," said Baltimore Regional Partnership Executive Director Dan Pontious. "It also shows why state Transportation Secretary Robert Flanagan's decision not to explore heavy rail for Baltimore's new Red Line is so short-sighted."
"We should learn our lessons from the experiences of other cities," said Brent Flickinger, transportation director of the Citizens Planning and Housing Association. "When the Metro opened on Sunday here, ridership was more than double the projections. Though the initial construction costs are higher than adding buses, in the long run, rail attracts more riders and is cheaper to
operate, is faster and more reliable, and does not contribute to air pollution."
The study found that property values are typically higher near transit stations, drawing redevelopment and an increased tax base. Property near the rail line in Dallas has risen 25 percent in value compared to more distant properties. Residential property close to rail stations in Washington, D.C. is worth $6 to $8 per square foot more than comparable properties farther away. Two billion dollars of construction has occurred along Portland's Eastside rail line.
Baltimore holds great potential for transit-oriented development, according to the report. MTA forecasts an overall increase in property values around transit stations of as much as $1.2 billion from full realization of the Baltimore Regional Rail Plan.
"We have seen time and again that people prefer rail over buses," Heavner added. "If we want to revitalize the areas around transit stations into vibrant communities, we have to build a transit system that is attractive to people."
The MaryPIRG Foundation report also found that people traveling via rail are not simply people who switched from buses when rail became available, according to surveys of rail passengers in three cities. Nearly fifty percent of rail passengers in Los Angeles had a car available for the trip on which they were surveyed. In Denver, 75 percent of passengers had access to a car but chose rail instead. In Dallas, 59 percent of passengers that own cars would have driven alone if light rail were not available.
The MaryPIRG Foundation called on the state to facilitate development of an effective transit system expansion in Baltimore in three ways:
1. Prioritize construction of a Baltimore rail system when seeking federal funding for transportation projects. The Maryland Transportation Administration should be granted funding for an accelerated schedule for planning and construction of the Red and Green Lines of the proposed regional rail plan.
2. Study both light and heavy rail along with increased bus service for the transit system expansion. Although rail is more expensive, it is likely to result in more redevelopment and thus a higher tax base for the city and greater financial returns in the long run, according to the group.
3. Provide opportunities for transportation planners to work side by side with land use planners. Transit-oriented development should be an integral part of the rail plan.
MaryPIRG, the Maryland Public Interest Research Group, is a statewide, non-profit, non-partisan public interest advocacy organization. The MaryPIRG Foundation is the organization's research and policy arm. Visit www.marypirg.org for more information."
There were a number of responses, including the one that quoted the former Mayor of Houston which may be found at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/transport-policy/message/29726
Its full text was as follows:
"Dear Dharm,
This is just more of the leftist-biased media continuing to promote the "Big Lie" about the benefits of urban rail, made by people with "feathered nests," so as to encourage the pro-rail lemmings (Liberal's useful idiots) to continue to run head-long over the cliff.
Former Houston Mayor Robert Lanier, a past Chairman of the Houston METRO Authority was quoted back in 1990, in the Houston Metropolitan Magazine, (page 49): "First they [rail's supporters] say `It's cheaper.' When you show it costs more, they say, 1It's faster.' When you show it's slower, they say, `It serves more riders.' When you show there are fewer riders, they say, `It brings economic development.' When you show no economic development, they say, `It helps the image.' When you say you don't want to spend that much money on image, they say `It will solve the pollution problem.' When you show it won't help pollution, they say, finally, `I will take time for rail to do some good.'"
What was a true and correct observation then, is cogent and attributable to urban rail and its promoters 13 years later.
Tom Bazan
Houston"
I joined in December. While there are a few posters who seem willing to think about the issues and a few rabidly pro-transit posters, the list is heavily dominated by rabidly anti-transit posters -- no great surprise there, given who sponsors the list.
Yes, I recently started getting their emails but have not contributed to the debate so far.
The sponsor is "The Public Purpose", and I have just been looking at their web page for the first time.
According to http://www.publicpurpose.com/
"POLICY STATEMENT
Urban Rail: Uses and Misuses
The Public Purpose has consistently found urban rail to be an expensive and ineffective strategy for reducing traffic congestion in automobile oriented urban areas, despite unsupportable claims by promoters to the contrary.
Urban rail is quite appropriate in high density, highly centralized urban areas such as Tokyo-Yokohama, Osaka-Kobe-Kyoto, New York, London, Paris and Hong Kong. The Public Purpose is not opposed to urban rail. The Public Purpose is opposed to waste and deception."
John
Tide washes whiter!
…than peeing on the garment!
…than what!
If I had any say about an advertising standards authority, I would ban such meaningless slogans. They just irritate the hell out of me.
"When you show no economic development, they say, `It helps the image.'"
Lanier has never shown "no economic development" That's a basic falsehood.
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=150819&category=NATIONAL&newsdate=7/12/2003
Add to that the relinquishment of subsidies to smaller airports that the article mentioned and it all emphasizes once again that this country is without a comprehensive transportation policy that recognizes the importance of a viable national multimode (air, road, rail, sea) network. Democrats and Republicans must share that guilt equally, as no administration in recent history of either party has developed such a strategy.
I'm sure you meant "1.8-billion dollar request". We wish that Amtrak had 18 billion dollars to work with.
Koi
NO, If you believe in this civics fantasy, then budget issues SHOULD reflect citizen attitudes. For thirty plus years Republicans and thei Democrat collaborators have starved and strangled ATk. It was designed to fail, the first new diesels were deliberately modified frt engines in case the corp folded they could be flogged off to the RR's. The whole thing was invented to save money for the franchise/charter holders who PERMISSION/PRIVILEGE to operate freight included a REQUIREMENT to also run pass trains. The quid pro quo was supposed to be uncle Sam covers the losses, the RR's run the trains honorably. Well, we all know that joke. Meanwhile it was hoped the few afraid to fly geezers would die off and everything off the NEC would evaporate. Thanks to our friends in the Persian Gulf, a funny thing happened. And ever since DESPITE the best efforts to sabotage ATK by the RR's people keep walking up to the ticket counters with money.
You may noy use ATK very often, but in general their numbers hasve grown--AND there is no two hour wait for security to miss the stuff in your luggage.
So I say again, write, phone etc your sengresspersons--whatever your opinions. Maybe, just maybe if we all pretend together that we live in a democratic system, the crooks might shape up.
Then persuade Congress to let it do that. It's Congress' fault, not Amtrak's. Of course, there are places which consider Amtrak service their lifeline (just like state-subsidized Greyhound service to small towns).
"Being a republican and a railfan I have conflicting views on this subject. I wasnt passanger rail to survive, but I despise a state-run railroad."
As long as we have nothing better to offer, we shouldn't trash what we have.
Amtrak is not clammoring to downsize. If it weren't a government run railroad, it could.
Actually, that's not true. Amtrak has said it will cut the network. All Congress has to do is confirm that decision by deleting funds. But it won't.
"If it weren't a government run railroad, it could."
Not true either. Many Greyhound routes woyuldn't exist without state subsidies. Your comment makes no sense at all.
As to long distance, you should check space availability--many book out each summer season. THESE RIDERS are not dead. They choose to spend MORE than for "airbus" service because they wish to enjoy the trip. As a taxpayer I vote to spend money on state run trains because I WANT rail service.
And finally, while I defend to the death your right to believe Republican ideology, remember NO passenger transportation services worldwide make profit with full accounting of capital as well as operational costs. Please consider the real estate taxes which the PA, and MTA would be paying if the airports,the subways,MN, and LIRR were not socialist enterprises and then explain how these entities could raise capital for their projects without the advantage of being able to use tax-free municipal financial paper.
Ah, no, it's Congress that places unreasonable demands on Amtrak service (like everybody's little pet train) and then doesn't offer enough money for Amtrak to meet those demands. Amtrak does the best it can with what it has. Stop the airlines from getting free money and then we'll talk.
SO, I'll just leave it here. Corporations perfectly ABLE to make a profit should NOT be getting welfare checks. Or certainly no more than AMTRAK GETS ... there ... on topic. But hey, these are republican times - check out the human flesh content of that stadium dog, we're this far from "soylent green" ...
The net result is once again, the Fed budget is deeply in the RED, the receivers of golden parachutes and their fellow speculators keep more of their enron style earnings and the ex-employees are as ripped off as the Teamsters were in the Beck/Hoffa years. A steel company goes belly and the guy who worked forty years now has no health insurance. That's free enterprise.
The transit district can't afford to run services in the neighborhoods, and the non auto citizenry can't shop, get to medical care, BUT those SUV driving Republican suburbanites don't care--they NEVER use transit.
I can understand why there's an issue here - plenty of LAWYERS representing the "DNA trail" of "child support lost" ... $5 million for the number of flings (not counting counsel) ... heh. PAUPERS!
Maybe the "estate" will provide enough money for a pair of R68's to create that awesome "double-wide manufactured housing" we've all come to know and love upstate. If there's gunshots in the middle of the night, there's a doublewide in the distance. Yee-hah, we're the "new sheriff in town" party. And he don't NEED no steenking token. :)
Welfare is needed only for most indigent and needy of people. The rest should get off their collective asses and go out and work. Take any job, work your ass off and look for improvement down the road.
Agreed 110% Fred. Total agreement with that. I never believed in welfare, and always though that if your wark hard, you get someplace in life.
Pity we couldn't be spending taxpayer money rebuilding our OWN Northeast Corridor or something similar, instead of having to provide makework after we blew up things, many for no strategic reason other than upping the bottom lines of these two companies. :(
And THERE'S the rub. I'm sorry, but if a family with 5 kids has them DYING and being dumped in garbage cans around here, versus Mary Lou Whitney getting ANOTHER rosebush planted in Saratoga at taxpayer expense, then I'd have to side with ...
AMTRAK (on topic, no bible)
the "welfare recipients" ... having BEEN through republican times ... lemme see now, NIXON - MTA, FORD - WIN football, REAGAN - Oh yeah, took a job with religious broadcaster in Poughkeepsie until they went away to the federal hoosegow for FRAUD (IRS too, this Jim and Tammy Bakker partnership was BIGGER than that stupid THEME park thang - can anyone say TBN? - nope, one would have to CARE about who REALLY puppeteers the ... "Amtrak is not nice, they're taking away daddy's tax cut" folks ...
REALITY is what the *****HEAD***** Republican once said, the almighty GIPPER, who makes god a PUNY little LIBERAL. DIE, god ... as I posted elsewhere and amusingly can't find THAT message either anymore. So, which party is left?
The "Osama's going to rape your daughter party?" Or the "we'll do it to an INTERN instead. Someone ELSE'S dotter. But as a TRUE American, you go away saying "my 'roids are cool, glad it wasn't me." :-\
All depends on WHICH evil. I had *HOPED* the libertarian party would be the answer ... Jesse Ventura, 'nuff said. Ross Elephantears and that WHACKY Admiral ... RIGHT out of Rocky and Bullwinkle.
ANyone ever WONDER why I'm as HARD on politics as I am? *****THEY***** run the subways. THEY run Amtrak ... THEY make your busride hell ... and THEY give Donald Trump and NY Junkie owner George Steingrabber MONEY ... because YOU can go to hell. How big a check did *YOU* write to your (oh GOD, I LOVE this terminology, and it's OFFICIAL!!!) "MEMBER (think about that, won't you after all those spams?) OF ASSEMBLY" ... lemme remove the ()'s and leave it for all the glory YOUR anointed legislator is worth:
(YOUR name here for a fee)
MEMBER OF ASSEMBLY
(can I hear a HALLILUJAH?)
Now if these MORONS gave themselves TITLES like THAT, what do you think is going to happen to the HOURLIES if the above is OK?
OK ... Lemme explain it *THIS* way ... here is a current chart of the chain of command, you'll see why I AGREE they can all go to hell, but it's TIME to change the diaper, even if it's a used one. The REST of us need to get motivated to create a *NEW* party ... one that'll put Arnines in every shopping mall, and a redbird on everyporch!
Meanwhile, HERE's how MTA management works:
(WARNING! Above picture will SELF-DESTRUCT in 5 DAYS. The secretary will disavow all knowledge of its secure undisclosed location.
FLASHES STRICTLY PROHIBITED!!! UP AGAINST THE WALL! (ewwwwwww!) :)
Eh Fred! You already forgot, it's TWO buses required from 86th st/Sea Beach to Coney Island, I already made a statement on that, HA HA!
I think I'm going to have to fix the message deletion script to lower the post quota by 1 for each o.t. thread that person starts.....
If they were in a thread called "Try your hand...pictures to identify" I read them and fixed the ones that were positively identified.
If you want to ask me questions in private use the feedback form or my email if you already know it.
I don't think the problem is people starting off-topic threads. Most SubTalkers don't do that, and don't respond to the few OT threads that do start. What happens instead is that a thread starts out on-topic and then drifts away. That's what happened here - IIRC, it started out as a discussion of how Congress doesn't like Amtrak, and turned into a general political diatribe.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I *meant* to say in the previous, as the GIPPER put it ...
ARE YOU BETTER OFF THAN YOU WERE FOUR YEARS AGO (WHEEZE)
... I'll leave it there. After SHRUB though, I'm VOTING for the damned Proctor Silex. Even Unca FRED will get the depths of my own motivation here. If Fidel Castro was on the BALLOT, BADA-BING-BADA-BOOM. Hell, I'd vote for DEGAULLE. WILLY BRANDT. Frigging BREZHNEV. Hell, even Buffalo Bob, Howdy Doody and BOZO THE CLOWN (with or without Officer Joe Bolton) would kick "*.ASP" on this fool (And bunch of "WE'RE SO CHICKENCHIT we LIVE in an undisclosed lcoation") puthies we've got now. I DARE say, when it comes to GUTLESS, masquerading in jello-like blobs of crybaby pants-wetting, ain't NOTHING like the SHRUB administration.
"Nothing to fear but CHENEY himself." :(
Alex, I'll take the BLENDER for 2004 please ...
With Republicans finding new an innovative ways to exterminate Amtrak but fear public backlash on this matter. When they find a way to tell American workers that O/T is not slave labor as they want to change it. When they want to spend billions on foreign interests but do little or nothing for the war veteran who is permanently disabled. When the rich get richer, convicted felons disguised as top-level executives keep their savings and working class investors lose everything to these same goons, well THE REPUBLICANS DICTATE WHAT GOES ON IN THE COUNTRY!
Dave, if you read this post, could you please update those pictures? Thanks.
Then there's New York which was the OPPOSITE parties running the state ... same result though. Hmmm. I'd look higher up the food chain. This "bicameral" thing ain't working so well. Can we ditch the house and keep the senate? :)
My guess is that Amtrak will have to choose between its transcontinental routes and its existence by 2006 at the latest, because if the economy does not pick up within the next year or so, both Congress and the States will not have the money to subsidize Amtrak train service from Chicago to the Pacific Coast (and for that matter, whatever other train services Amtrak may be contracting for the states). That is, unless Amtrak is willing to put up with one train per week service on the California Zephyr, Southwest Chief, Empire Builder, and Sunset Limited (and even here, one or more of these trains may get the ax).
Other states will not allow the Northeast to get such a return on their tax dollars without a cut. David Gunn's popularity is too high to make him disappear. What do you do? You find the money and hold Amtrak to their five year plan. Thankfully, the entire plan consists of no-brainer improvements and only the DMUs might get a challenge.
Changed at 9th for easier ride to midtown though...
Diamonds usually indicate special rush hour service, no?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Usually it does indicate peak directional express service but in the case of the Q diamond it runs all day so I would say its reserved for weekday express service.
On the Brown R it was used up until 1987 when they ran from 95 St-Chambers St in the rush hours. And most of the R42's still has the R bullet. Since the Nassau line most likely can't use 75 footers in that section they are using the 42's.
True, but the route was eliminated before those cars even received those signs. The first R42's came back from their GOH months after the route was eliminated.
The last train was composed of eight R-42's.
S 4878-9, 4850-1, 4897-6, 4937-6.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I wish I can see the Brown diamond R in action but I don't know if I can make it out there this Sunday...
About diamonds, I think they now are used to indicate a change from the normal service (example the diamond Q ).
til next time
Diamonds, well according to the MTA, indicate either express, rush hour or special service.
I will be visiting London for a few weeks in August and would be interested in chatting with or meeting up with SubTalkers who are as adept and versed with lore on on Underground as those of us here are with the NYC subway on this side of the Atlantic.
I would espeically like to ask a few questions of a technical nature to any good folks here who might happen to work with LUL, if that's at all possible.
I expect to be in the UK between July 29th and August 19th and staying near the East Finchley Northern Line station. Anyone wishing to get together for a pint or a chat (or both), please e-mail me in private. I lok forward to visiting London again and hopefully to putting a few names to faces.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.41 Now Available!
As far as the database thing, whatever. Keep taking photos.
Umm, gee, you work for the TA. Does that mean YOU don't know what your doing. Fine support for your fellow employees.
Peace,
ANDEE
2 years ago we never thought some people would be learning how to fly a plane (Not land it or take off) so that they could crash it into 2 tall buildings.
Do you want to know two real ways to improve security? 1) More manned interlocking towers, 2) more railfans out there with cameras who can discover terrorists, detect their atempts at sabotage and then record their identities.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
It is also the busiest passenger carrying railroad in the country. Running in a territory that has about 8 million people on an island only 120 miles long. Maybe the case could be made for the legitimacy of having the towers remain. I've never fully accepted the logic of "central planning operations" as you mentioned. For all the technology available it's still a good idea to have live eyes and ears right on the scene.
2) This wouldn't help
160.380 ROAD CHANNEL 1
161.445 DISPATCHER
161.265 YARD CHANNEL
160.920 AMTRAK OPERATIONS
160.605 LIRR POLICE
160.455 LIRR POLICE
And if you worry that you will be on their short list in case of a derailment just for taking pictures, how would it be to be known as the mysterious photographer who uses a scanner to try to evade contact with the police while surreptitiously taking pictures of the railroad? You could end up seeing posters with a drawing of your face on them.
Tom
Only while in a motor vehicle, I believe.
Good enough for ya?
I dont post pics often, so my un-expertise shows... :-0
Ok, your first statement was on-topic and funny. This isn't. Please learn where to draw the line. Thanks.
Yes indeedly doo.
[B] Scratch-free RFW trip from 242 VCP to Nevins St.
(shot 2001 when the RFW 3 line cars ran on 1).
Not 4 sale, brahs.
[X] Same trip, but attach the 'A' reel (above) to 'B' reel to make a
COMPLETE trip running (SP SPEED!!!!!) from 242 VCP to South Ferry.
Not 4 sale, brahs.
------------------------------------------------------------
HONORABLE MENTIONS.......
[2/5] Salaam Allah's IRT Redbirds 2000 full-length video.
See Brah Salaam.
I'll get back to you on the "best photo" one...
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_4411.jpg
Why would a R36 from Corona show up on the 2? They are found only on the 7, right? The only times when the R-36s leave the 7 is when they go to Coney Island for major overhaul or repairs. But when would one of the 7's R36s run on the ML? Maybe the T/O made a wrong turn...
BTW, in the early-mid 1990's I remember redbirds on the #6 which had orange doors inside. Anyone else remember these?
Chaohwa
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Lo-V’s were the standard car of the IRT. They were the culmination of a design that started with the pioneer Composites and was modified and developed through several classes of High-V’s. The first Low-Voltage cars were of course the Flivvers. The Flivvers had low-voltage motors but they retained much of their High-V ancestry. They were “sprinters” seeing service only in the peak hours and never had quite the robustness of the other IRT cars.
The Lo-V’s (s they were almost always referred to, instead of Low-Voltage) which followed them were the true thoroughbreds of the IRT. They ran perfectly well in express or local service but were most at home on the express services while the local run tended to be handled by the High-V’s. The Standards may have been the battleships of the First Generation subway fleet but the Lo-Vs were the speed -demons.
My recollections of the Lo-V’s starts in the early 1960’s when they still held sway on the Lexington Avenue Express runs. (Nos 4 & 5). The R-Types had already made much headway in replacing the old IRT Fleet. The High-V’s were gone and the Flivvers said farewell in 1962 but there were still plenty of Lo-V’s and their somewhat slower cousins the Steinways still around.
The Lo-V’s were nice and warm in the winter with very good heat. In the summer their large and powerful fans provided ventilation on the hottest of days. The seats where of rattan which was quite comfortable. Some of the cars had been retrofitted with red vinyl seats like the R-17’s but the red seats seemed somewhat out of place. Some Lo-V’s still had the drop seats at the center door. These were the cars which had gone over to Queens years ago and returned to the mainline in the early 50’s.
The Lo-V’s were the last large fleet of rapid transit cars to use trailers. The IRT had always made use of trailers both on its elevated and subway lines. The BRT/BMT used trailers extensively on the els but only a very few in subway service and the IND had none. A ten car train would have three trailers, a seven car train two and a five car train one. A ten car train would have two conductors, one between the 1st and 2nd cars and the other between the 9th and 10th cars. At Bowling Green Station the forward conductor would open the doors on both sides of the first car so passengers would have direct access to the short shuttle platform. At Grand Central motormen on northbound express would open their side door and allow passengers to pass through the cab in order to speed loading. One of the nicest features was the enclosed vestibules at the car ends. This was especially good if you were traveling a long distance say all the way to The Bronx. The outermost doors front and rear never opened so you could fit yourself in front of the nice big window on the storm door and enjoy the ride without being constantly jostled by passengers entering and leaving. The best part of a Lo-V trip front my point of view was the long elevated express run from 3 Avenue to Gun Hill Road on the White Plains Road Line. It was really great to be barreling along on the center express track and pass between two locals stopped in a station.
There was of course Lo-VM 5302 . The only one built without a center door. It looked like a passenger car built actually was built for revenue collection. The only other passenger-type subway cars that I know of that were built for revenue collection were the IND R-8A’s 66 & 67.
1963 was the last full year for Lo-V service. Lo-Vs, ran on the #4 and #5 . On December 23, 1963 the remaining Lo-V’s were transferred to the #3 7 Avenue-Lenox Express were they ran until February 21, 1964. This was to have been the last Lo-V’s run on the IRT mainline…..However a pair of Lo-V’s held sway in lower Manhattan on the shortest possible IRT route, the Bo wling Green Shuttle and dug their heals in and said “HELL NO, WE WON’T GO.” a succession of R-12’s, 14’s, and 17’s came and went throughout the summer in a vain effort to replace these stalwarts. Finally the last day came on August 6, 1964 when they were replaced by an ad hoc matchup of R-12 5775 and R-14 5834.
About 16 or so Lo-V Trailers soldiered on in The Bronx running in five car trains with their Steinway cousins on the 3 Avenue EL. Many of the Lo-V’s passed into work service and at one time there were nearly 200 of these, as work motors, revenue collection cars, snow plows etc. Yet the final curtain call for the Lo-VM’s hadn’t yet come down.
July 22, 1965 was to Rapid Transit Day at the New York World’s Fair and who showed up but five Lo-VM’s repainted in a dark green and overhauled. Cars 5286,5290,5443,5466 and 5483 made a run from Times Square to the World’s Fair and even carried civilians (I.e.non-railfans) . It laid up in the Corona Yard near the ramp to the World’s Fair entrance alongside a blue and orange Q-Type(1622 A-B-C) and some bule and white Bluebirds. (R-33WF and R-36WF). After this except for the few trailers still on the el the cars passed into honorable retirement….Or so we thought. As the 60’s wore on the old cars on the 3 Avenue El began to drop out one by one until a point was reached where there was not enough of them to protect the service… So the five museum cars came out of retirement once more and helped to cover the service until Novemebr 1969 when the R-12’s took over. The very last Lo-V to run in passengers service was trailer 5353 built in 1922 by the Pullman Company. It was November 3, 1969.
Larry, RedbirdR33
http://palter.org/~subway/3rd-ave-low-v.html
Bill
Thurston. I don't think that the Lo-V's bore the red paint scheme orginally. The red scheme was certainly on the Gibbs Hi-V's when delivered and probably on the Composites as well. I don't know if the Deck-roofs ever had it.
The five Lo-V museum cars were repainted into the Pullman green for the 1965 World's Fair but were again repainted into Tuscan Red for the 75th Anniversary of the subway. After that they were repainted into what?, Gray for the 90th Anniversary.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Besides the exhorbitant costs that a project like that would incur (hell, we can't even afford to restore the Mineola or the BMT Standard) in a museum that is run almost entirely on donations and volunteers there are two other reasons why it could never occur:Whether us rapid transit fans like it or not, Branford is still basically a trolley museum and with a few exceptions, trolleys didn't normally travel over els.Branford prides itself on the fact that their ROW is the original Conn. Co. ROW and not trackage built for the museum.
For a bunhc of foamers, talking about how PHAT their "portfolios" are on high tech, that some money can't be preserved for the future out of what remains of our FOAMER legacy. :)
2775 rusts away, LAST of its breed at Branford. Does NYCTA have ANY left? As for the Mineola, while I *admire* its place in IRT history (REMEMBER, Selkirk lived in the IRT Borough, and the IRT cars were as familiar as fire plugs) ... STILL, the Mineola is the EPITOME of BELMONT history, but who cares? Justa stupid racetrack ... When STEINGRABBER or TRUMP owns "BELMONT" then the Mineola will matter. Nah, it's be PEZ that he gets remembered for. :(
But to let our HISTORY, ESPECIALLY as proud foamers, go to hell ... SHAME on you! Branford has some REAL treats - so does S eashore, so does KINGSTON, NY (and they're badly in need too and have an ARNINE that's rusted in place ... *OH* how Selkirk's heart SINKS at seeing R4 number 825 rotting IMMOBILE:
Now that just HURTS. If *ONLY* I had the money to adopt her. :(
And THAT'S why I appreciate Eddie S. at Branford. 1689, a newer car is in WONDERFUL shape. Oh, if only money existed to restore 825, I car that *WAS* in my books (yep, another "get out the baby powder for the palm" and USE it story ... but 825 was often a SOUTH MOTOR on the D train ... I remember that car WELL ... and she wasn't anywahere NEAR as "obstinate" as 1689 and others ... whoever chose the NYC museum fleet membership missed a PEARL ... and she's in Kingston, neglected, unpowered and unappreciated.
PLAIN old R4 ... nothing special, except a SOUL. She and I workewd together in 1970. OFTEN. Lead car to Brighton. And she was GOOD to me! Her motors NEVER tripped a breaker, her stands stood robust, she was truly a MIGHTY "steed" ... and no matter what FOLLOWED her, she'd GET you there. I *loved* 825 now that a former buddy of mine stopped by and showed me a photo of me in her. And NO, I didn't GET a copy. :(
I'd like to see them ALL get a "UBER MAKEOVER" even if FOX has to come and film it (or those jackasses that redo a house without permission) for Teevee ... what a LOGICAL thing to do on TV ... "We took this old junk NYC subway BMT car and jacked it up ... onto MONSTER TRUCKS! Screw them pussy 33 inch wheel, NO SIR! We're going for 72 INCH wheels! *TRY* to get in the doors of this puppy as it scrapes the Manhattan BRIDGE, FORGET about what it will do to your HOME station, but rescue crews should have you out in four days IF their funding isn't cut further. :)
Transit Museum has one, non-functional; RPC has three more in Coney Island, in red primer, and IIRC, presently off their trucks.
Ditto to everything else you said :)
Actually there are two long straight aways at Branford where you can really pick up speed. The ROW is 3 miles round trip and there are 3 trestles. And the S-curves are fun too. Makes the cars emit that wheel screeching sound that everyone loves. To be honest with you, since they usually couple it with 1689 and I am a devout Arnine fan, I very rarely ride the Low-V.
One other big plus with Branford over NYCT. For the price of a membership you can actually operate the Low-V!!!
It's not too soon to start thinking about a Fall Charter. I already know of several out-of-towners who are interested in doing it again/for the first time.
There is a lot of effort being made at Branford to develop a piece of land that is higher then most of the barns to have some place to put the fleet out of harms way when the next hurricane/storm tide comes calling.
#3 West End Jeff
I spent the first 14 years of my life riding Lo-V's...and the other "older" stock on the IRT (and the BMT Standard, D-type, Q-type -- the IND R-1/9's and R-10's)
Nothing could compare to the Lo-V's.....
As compared to today, think of dark, noisy--very distinct "tractiony" motor, gear and brake and compressor sounds--the distinctive loud noises have to be everyone's strongest impressions.
Though there was an impression of dirty, they nevertheless were airy because of the windows, vents and fans. They rocked and rumbled.
Bound up with this was that each division (and the H&M) had a distinctive "smell"--probably made up of the kinds of lubricants, brake shoe composition, ozone emissions, etc., typical of each system. Lo-Vs definitely had that IRT smell.
PATH, of course, still has a distinctive smell.
It's "Fresh Country SCENT"!!! City folks think LILACS are fresh country scent. Hahahahahahahahahahahaha. A little Pennzoil drink for da fan motors, some OLD SOCKS, some 40 weight for the journal boxes, give it a couple of days to leak onto the axles, then let Unca Selkirk run em hard, and put 'em away wet, and it'll be 1938 all over again, complete with the scent of FRESH tunnel, newly poured SAKRETE everywhere ... I'll give yas a "classic Arnine smell," all I ask is PLEASE suck it into something and store it, or clear the lead to the barn (in case I overshoot) and let me wind her around the switch at 25, wrap it and dump it in the barn for ya. Suck it up, and you can SELL it as "car freshner for foamers."
Alas, to ME, that patented blue smoke only smells like WORK. :)
Now there's an idea ! If they can sell Florida sunshine in a can, why not ?
From: "Mr. Salaam W Allah nyc 11. 3. 51"
Date: Mon Jul 14, 2003 5:46 am
Subject: ALL OF MY GROUPS / WEBPAGES
( SOME OF THEM ANYWAY ) .....lol !
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/contrib/salaam.jpg
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/SOUTHERN-CALIFORNIA
http://salaamallah.tripod.com/SWAtrainz/
http://community.webshots.com/user/salaamallah
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/7FlushingLineNewYorkCity/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AsiaticcommunicationsPhotography/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BlueLineLosAngelesMTA/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalTransitPhotographers/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GoldLinePasadenaLosAngelesMTA/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GreenLineLosAngelesMTA/
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/GreyhoundBusRiders/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MassTransitCommentary/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MetroloinkCommuterTrains/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RedLineSubwayLosAngelesMTA/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RedLineSubwayLosAngelesMTA/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FinishandCompleteThe710LongBeachFreeway/
http://naphotos.nerail.org/show/?
order=byposter&page=1&key=salaamallah
or look at my shots on this page
http://naphotos.nerail.org/bycontributor/
I'll post some of my favorites.
Great film nonetheless, but No LoV's there ...
Always guaranteed to get a reply from one or the either. Just hafta watch out for Redbirds and Arnines. ;-D
The HO gauge freight train is offered by Hawthorne Village of Niles IL.
The $199.00 plus $16.00 shipping price includes an F-7 A & B unit, a tank car, a boxcar and a caboose as well as a hardwood display base and brass nameplate.
The price is too high, but this is sure an attractive looking train set.
Brighton Beach Bob, are you ordering one?
I've ridden the subway at extreme late hours, and found that while in theory having both trains run local should decrease headways, in practice it ends up Train-2mins-Train-18mins.... at least on the Queens Blvd local with the E/G. The F is surprisingly well patronized late at night, even though it's express...
also the #2 ran express until a few years ago at night.
What about people going to the Bronx, the #2 would get then there quicker, plus it saves the MTA money to run less trains.
the #4 can run local after 1:30-2:00
Not the ones coming from 86th, 79th, 66th, 59th, 50th, 28th, 23rd, 18th, Christopher, Houston, Canal, and Franklin. Running the 2 local saves them time.
Perhaps safety is the reason the change was made. It's a lot safer to wait on a train for up to 8 extra minutes than to wait on a platform for up to 20.
plus it saves the MTA money to run less trains.
If saving money were the only criterion, the 2 would run in two segments, one from 96th up and one from Chambers down. That both the 1 and 2 run between 96th and Chambers indicates that one of the considerations is serving passengers. At late night headways, how are passengers better served, with one local and one express or with two locals? Certainly with two locals, especially given the late night ridership at some of the local stations in question.
David, have you ridden late nights recently, with the #3 running express?
No, I haven't ridden the late night 3 any of the four nights it's run. Why do you ask? (I never said it should have run local -- ten-minute late night headways are adequate.)
Why should we forget the people who live in Manhattan?
And what about the people who live in the Bronx who are coming from local stops? You may lose 4 minutes if you're coming from Times Square, but from 50th you gain 8-9 minutes on average (and possibly as much as 18-19 minutes, if your 1 just misses a connection with the 2 at 72nd).
also the #2 ran express until a few years ago at night.
What about people going to the Bronx, the #2 would get then there quicker, plus it saves the MTA money to run less trains.
the #4 can run local after 1:30-2:00
also the D is still express 24/7, Queens Blvd has night express service
One late night Concourse rider here has stated that he doesn't want the late night D to run local not because of the extra time but because he wants to sleep on the train and the door chimes would keep him awake. In a transit system (as opposed to a hotel), where Concourse riders don't pay more than CPW local riders (in fact, they pay less per mile, on average), should that be even a minor concern?
Most weekends, there are two expresses and one local on CPW. While the A generates reasonable crowds, the D is invariably much emptier than the C. This past weekend, there was one express and one local on CPW, and that one local was more frequent and less erratic than the usual one. Guess what: while the D express was more crowded than usual, it was still less crowded than the A local. I have seen some crowded D's on weekends: specifically, those weekends that the C runs express and the D runs local.
I have emailed NYCT with the suggestion that the B local, not the D express, be the full-time service, with the D filling in as a special weekday express. (Another advantage of that naming scheme is that the D would go back to the Brighton and the B would go back to the West End.) If you agree (either because you live in the area and you think there should be better service on CPW, or because you don't live in the area but you simply agree that it would make sense), please write to NYCT. Based on the facts, the CPW local-express balance is skewed nights and weekends; the only reason it remains is that Concourse passengers begin yelling and screaming whenever someone suggests that their service run local at some times (watch, you'll see it in response to this post) while Upper West Siders have been trained to put up with inadequate service.
You bring up an intereaing point up here. While it would probably make sense to make the CPW local every 10 minutes instead of 20, it seems like they don't need the extra headway time on the local so that's why it is probably an express. Now, would people "accept" the B being the full time line over the D [since the D was always the full time line there], I know it sounds minor but think about it. While you plan makes sense, it seems like the MTA's plans are final on the case of routing the D via West End and B via Brighton [so the D keeps 24/7 service].
2 to 3 extra minutes travel time would be a small price to pay for up to a 20 minute wait, AND the ride through the Rathole on the W (next year, it's the N) because both the Q and W late night trains are schedule to meet at Dekalb Ave. No additional services are warranted in lower Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn, one line will just do.
I would think their preference depends on where they're coming from or where they're going.
The MTA would save money if it ran fewer trains, not less trains, and they certainly don't make any money if people don't ride the trains.
The 4 already runs local at night (though I have heard that some 4s do not even though they are susposed to).
The D is express 24/7 but it probably should be a local at night, especially once it returns to Brooklyn. Queens Boulevard has late night express service for two reasons. One is because the E and G are already making local stops. The second is that if the F ran local along with the E and G late at night, people would start asking "Why can't the F run local all the time?"
I would run the 4 express 24/7 and the 6 to from South Ferry at nights
fewer and less are the same thing, taking away a few trains, which is what an EXP run would do to the 2 and 4 lines.
The 3 and 5 only run at night(in Manhattan) in special cases(although the #3 Shuttle can run again from 96 St or 135th Street and the #5 Shuttle could start at 149th GC-Mott Avenue with some track modifications), like 1998
P.S. Do you know if the #5 ran local or express during Lenox Rehabilitation #5 241 St - Bowling Green?
It wouldn't make any sence to run the 3 and 5 at nights exept for shuttle service. I belive the 6 should end at 125 street at nights and have special 4 trains make express stops.
P.S. Do you know if the #5 ran local or express during Lenox Rehabilitation #5 241 St - Bowling Green?
The 5 ran local from Flatbush Avenue to Franklin avenue, express from Franklin Avenue to Nevins street, then took ovr the 2 route (Peak direction only) Until 149 Street, then both trains go their own way.
Also, the 5 the great one is talking about ran local in the Bronx and Express in Manhattan but only ran during the daytime hours on the weekends. It did NOT run late nights.
the #5 did run WEEKEND nights it was a G.O.(so I heard) 241 St - Bowling Green
Why should the 6 go to South Ferry late at night and run the 4 express? What happens if you want to go from say 23rd Street to 167th Street and they miss the 4 at 42nd? Their trip just got to be 20 minutes longer because of an uncessecary transfer. Also, for anyone going between local stops, why should they have to wait up to 20 minutes?
Fewer and less are not the same thing or else it would not be gramatically incorrect to say "There should be less trains" or whatever it is you said.
Shoot. These are the breaks. And this has been hashed and rehashed ad infinitum. But I'll jump into it again. Why "f" with a damn good infrastructure design philosophy? That is, this is a multi-track rail transit system. Due to the high density of the territory covered, it was decided to (ideally, anyway) implement the local/express system whereupon dedicated routes traverse multiple parallel r.o.w.s. Why should the operations ignore this implicit design factor even late at night? For the rest of the country having a 20 minute headway at three in the morning is the stuff of fantasy. I feel we the riding public should accomodate the system as it is, not seek to degrade the service levels by eliminating express trains. IOW, expect to have to undergo longer waits for trains after midnight! At least they're running.
Or, try to move closer to the express stops. Everything has a price. What's that, you'd rather live on a less busy street? Fine. But now "you" want to make me, by my decision to locate nearer the express stop, LOSE this express service so "you" can endure a shorter wait for a train in the off hours. It's like having your cake and eating it too. Gee, thanks.
BTW, I'm saying this realizing how high the population density is along the Lex and Seventh Ave trains above midtown, esp. along Broadway. I still stick to my guns on this though. It seems the "obvious" solution for that is more local service. BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF THE EXPRESS SERVICE.
Many things were better back then, the first time the #4 ran local at night the #6 was reduced to a shuttle
the #8(3rd Avenue thru express) even went to 241 Street
Athens needs it badly, with all the choking pollution Athenians have to put up with (that is also turning their ancient treasures into dust).
It’s great to see that the system has tripled in size and they have new rolling stock.
Athens badly needs more underground transport: the streets have to be even more clogged than when I was there last, even with the even number/odd number restrictions on coming into the center.
John
Unfortunately, their site is unviewable with my old browser on this PC. I will check it out later.
It is good to see that they are modernizing the city. Now if they could just complete the removal of those old falling down buildings on that hill (they could crush and recycle the stone for road building), they could put in a nice new subdivision there. :-)
Tom
Other than the home page I was unable to see anything but the terms and conditions for use. How does one enter the site?
Tom
Hot Damn! The second post I've ever seen here that was genuinely funny. You clever clever dawg you.
Are you sure? I don't go there often, but as I remember it (correct me if I'm wrong):
Going to Boston, the train is going west over the bridge.
The Astoria line is south of the bridge.
Thus, the train is moving to the west. The right side of the train is facing north, and the left side is facing south. So you'd want to be on the left side.
PS: If i ever come to NYC i'm trying to find the
right tower and make some pics, cos i'm working as a train
driver and know of the danger on tracks.
You're, of course, kidding us. Aren't you? Hell, I'm working as a computer driver myself...
www.et420-online.de (it's till now only german - but there is all about
the train i drive most)
To learn about the railway signals i see on work go:
www.stellwerke.de (german and english) or
http://www.ccrc.wustl.edu/~jpgs/transport/rail/signal/signal.html
This is, why i much about the danger in tracks. If i'm there, i hope
they have no third rail with power on it.
There are "sandwich" or resiliant wheels which have been around for years - the PCC car is a prime example, although it wouldn't surprise me if the technology even preceded that. They are not as durable as conventional wheels; how much less so than standard steel wheels I don't know, but I would presume by an appreciable amount or they would be in much more common usage than they are.
The only Canadian equipment using resiliant wheels that I'm aware of are the CLRVs in Toronto, although some of the light rail systems may use them. Of course, there IS the rubber-tired Montréal subway, but even that has some form of steel guide wheel inside the load-bearing tires. Surely the politician isn't that crazy... or is he? In any event, it's political grandstanding... sounds good to the voters who don't know any better.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't have any idea what the plastic wheels could be, though, and I don't think they're a reference to resilient wheels, either.
-Robert King
They are also on the equipment at San Diego trolley as well. They have a stack of a thousand or so of them int he back corner of their shop -- my contact there said they "got a good deal on a big quantity" so they too k Siemens up on it and stockpiled.
Later that day, with many of the same passengers still trying to get south of Chambers/Brooklyn Bridge, I came down to find a J sitting on the downtown "local" track (thru to Fulton/Broad). It was sitting with the front headlights off and taillights on. People all over the station, all the way from the 4/5/6 platform through the mezzaine to the J platform, were all standing and talking and confused and angry about this J that wasn't supposed to be here, and where was the R? So they eventually decided to send it down to Broad St and told everyone wanting Brooklyn to transfer at Fulton for the 2/3 (nobody listened, of course). It ran through to Fulton where only half the people needing Brooklyn actually got off, then went to Broad and emptied. They changed ends and tried to pull out the other way (somehow dumping the train twice in the process) but were stuck because the next R was right behind and had keyed by the signal and was sitting in the block where the switch was. So they changed ends again and pulled into the Broad relay, never to be seen again. Next came two R's back-to back and packed with people. Then I crossed over and waited 20 minutes for the next R northbound, and changed at Essex for a J.
While passing Marcy Ave and the Williamsburg Bridge Plaza, I saw at least 3 firetrucks and/or other emergency vehicles parked in the bus terminal, blocking the buses. At Myrtle/Bway and at Central/Bway I also heard more sirens headed in that direction. This was at about 9 PM. Anybody know what happened? (Maybe I should post this last part on Bustalk?)
Wrong Track at Chambers
End of the Line
The Switch and Homeball on the Relay Track
Approaching Chambers N/B on Wrong Track
Entering Chambers N/B on Wrong Track
Express to Canal, Pissed-off Passengers
".....Closed up, and then I went back to the RFW to see us go down to the relay track for J trains. We pulled up to the bumper block and the marker, T/O turned the headlights off, and then set off (along with myself and another railfan) for the opposite end. The passengers were complaining about the A/C as he walked by (the next car is empty and had working A/C, why the hell didn't they move back?). We went to the other end and were given the lineup.....
Sounds like Dtrain, as well as a whole train of passengers was on that train, so it does seems like a whole train of passengers "relayed", and not just DTrain on it?
Duuuuuude... you think the C/R dumped the back half of train before closing up?
Lest just all shaddap about this... we already said TOO MUCH last evening.
Paul, I see where your coming from BUT you have to remember that there was a whole lot of people on the train so you can't really blame DTrain. Anybody could make a complaint on the screw up but I think its best to stop here.
If some of you can call a "time out" to your panicking long enough to read this:
1) The incident was in full vierw of lots of people with varying degrees of knowledge
2) Yes, assume supervision knows about it
3) if anything really bad happens to the crew (above and beyond reason), it will have already happened, or it's happening now.
Nobody has to discuss details they're uncomfortable with, especially if their lawyers have told them not to. But this is an open forum, and "shushing" people here is inappropriate. An open discussion of this kind of thing can be illuminating both to TA workers and to the railbuffs.
If you don't want to participate in the discussion, fine. But knock off the censoership. You're not accomplishing anything useful, and it isn't your place to do that anyway.
If you don't want to participate in the discussion, fine. But knock off the censoership. You're not accomplishing anything useful, and it isn't your place to do that anyway.
I know it isn't my place, I stopped MYSELF so people won't try and jump down on my ass for saying "sensitive" comments.
Nobody has to discuss details they're uncomfortable with, especially if their lawyers have told them not to. But this is an open forum, and "shushing" people here is inappropriate. An open discussion of this kind of thing can be illuminating both to TA workers and to the railbuffs.
If you don't want to participate in the discussion, fine. But knock off the censoership. You're not accomplishing anything useful, and it isn't your place to do that anyway.
That's wonderful. Perhaps they have taken a good look at the many, many great ideas for service improvements offered in past posts on this board, and for suggestions to celebrate the subway's 100th birthday, and will seriously consider them in the future. It would be nice to see something good come from this monitoring instead of solely using it to "bang in" employees.
--Mark
As a former "management type" in grade 21/24 land, I can ASSURE you, that writing the BEST powerpoint presentation for the "study group" was everything. Now that the drag queens of Christopher street are gone and can no longer entertain us, we're STUCK with wiglets and adminiswigs. HEY KIDS, LET'S PUT ON A SHOW. :)
The *REALITY* that Unca Selkirk has learned since the MTA is that "IF it works, *DO* it ... if it DOESN'T, *STOP!!!!*" ... simple enough,no?
NOT for the phucks you people keep phucking SELECTING (after all, "ELECTED" requires WINNING an election, not "Daddy's court and phuck the voters." :(
NIGHTY!!! I've had enough of SUNDAY, I go sleep ...
Jimmy :)
Did you forget about Queens?
--Mark
That's not enough for any suits to identify those who made mistakes.
Sure.... if it was the ONLY misalignment of the day...
Being that there were others, the TOWER brahs weren't exactly clean eyed.
I've SEEN recent GO's prior to the "clampett-down" on the Paturkey Farm. After all, if the whistleblowers are lined up and shot, then our republican royalty can't be shown to be a bit threadbare in the emperor's fine robes. But I'd be willing to bet that NOBODY on the railroad knew where to put those @!%^*%$@ trains. Except for the genius who wrote it all up and was ABSENT on the day of the ... ummm ... subway carnage.
Not exactly, Que sera, sera.
Unfortunately this isn't the TA attitude. There are many things that "happen" in the TA I feel should be overlooked as they're minor. A wrong route, I dunno about that one. It inconveniences customers.
However on my list of things that shouldn't be treated as greatly as they are:
* Hitting a signal:
Yeah, that's bad. But if there is not train in the preceeding 4 or 5 blocks, why make a major deal out of it. Reinstruction at most. If it happens often then the TA needs to recognize the T/O as possible liability. But one and rare offense shouldn't be handled as it is. A T/O faces disciplinary action the same if here is no train ahead as if there were a train 2 blocks ahead.
* Hitting a home signal:
See above. Also, if the switch is already in favor of the train which overran the signal, again, reinstruction.
* Hitting a customer with the doors:
Yeah, its bad too, but many times a customer runs for those doors and C/Rs reaction times aren't perfect... should they be penalized for that? Its happened.
I didn't mean to go off on a tangent here, but I wanted to give a few examples of how the TA does not see things as just "happening" and does not brush them off.
Plus in railroads running a stop-n-stay signal = termination, so anything other than that is considered lenient...
Taking a wrong lineup is much less serious than the above, as it does not create a dangerous situation, just an annoying one.
I *AGREE* with the sentiment. NOBODY working the rails has EVER told you to not TALK about it, but DOCUMENTING car numbers, time of day, location and other things *WILL* be charged against crews. We didn't have INTERNET back in 1970, but rest assured, I got called on the carpet SEVERAL times on the basis of "customer complaint" ... and yeah, they really called it back then. This sickoid "customer" nonsense has been around since RONAN. ONLY those above M-1 grade actually BELIEVE that horsechit.
The MTA *was*, and as I see from my own experience along with that PREVIOUSLY practiced by others indicated that the VAST majority of folks on, in and around the railroad are doing their DAMNDEST to make it work, and management was acting like a bunch of neanderthals, going after people for the DUMBEST of things, making decisions that resulted in printed GO's that GHANDI couldn't decipher, much less those in a tower sitting there and saying "HUH!?!?!? There ain't no switch that goes THERE!" For the few with cojones, TELL me I lie. No, DON'T ... "fair hearing" ... :(
LEMME put it THIS way ... can ANYONE here tell me when TRAIN DUDE was last spotted? Some of you loved him, others hated him, but I *ENJOYED* him ... IMMENSELY! Because he gave out REAL numbers, NOT Stan Fischler's, and he had his FACTS straight when it came to trains. Politically, I was sincerely concerned that the NEXT "industrial area where a police incident" might have occurred is HIS own barn, with Dude Barricaded behind 1000 gallons of TA monkey oil out on the wheel track. Heh. But WHERE'S TRAIN DUDE?!?!?!
I'll tell ya ... the ***SAME*** place that every OTHER MTA employee who used to share juicy tidbits with us here, would let us get a shot of the speed in the cab, or "preflight" peeks into a cab on camera so we could "see" what's going on there in the broom closet. We got spooky pictures of WEIRDARSED equipment out behind the barn on track 63, photos of the newest trains before ANYONE saw them, photos of WRECKS, all SORTS of stuff.
Has anyone NOTICED any of that MISSING lately?
Republican times. Up against the wall, mothersticker - this is a phuckup. And you wonder why CREWS don't want flash cameras? =(
The MTA's gone NUTS, just like the morons who work in (TERRORISTS, PLEASE NOTE! TAKE OUT *THIS* BUILDING and EVERYBODY will convert to Islam) The "Erastus Corning Tower Building" in Smallbany. Nobody's ever heard of it, Al Jazeera will not know HOW to pronounce it, but take out NYS, they'd be doing *ALL* of us a favor. Not going to happen, they'd be making us DANCE in the streeets."
AH, but to the INHABITANTS of the "Tower Building," (Brits, GO AWAY! heh) they've EACH spent about $5K per capita on "personal gas masks, PARACHUTES (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA), and other right-wing nonsense that would have done them JUST as much good in a "NUKULAR" war ..
MORONS ... but the's the rules, and KNOWING how independent DUDE was, he'd take ***NO*** chit from anyone. Looks like our "Shrub and friends" has even stifled the PENULTIMATE republican.
Still proud to be a nazi, kids? They phucked TRAIN DUDE?!?!?!? :(
**PLEASE** think about it! WHere *IS* he? GUANTANAMO for being a "suspicious person?" BEING a registered member of ze fazzerland buys you NOTHING. EVEN IF you kick in more than COORS.
*I* WANNA know where TRAIN DUDE is ... corpus delicti, TA! :*(
Arti
who post here. Their opinions are as valid as anyone's at the TA, but we're NOT getting a representative mix of opinions. I'm not dismissing it, but also don't read too much into it.
Reread his post. IINM, DTrain was given no special privelige. He was just another passenger on a train FULL of passengers, so how can that be a problem?
It's bad enough that the T/O took a wrong lineup, but the resulting cover-up which was put up WITH PHOTOS NONETHELESS, will result in way more than reprimands. Nowadays, this is grounds for termination.
The photo of the yellow over yellow lineup just north of Chambers could've been taken from a J train. The relay photos mean that Dtrain22 snuck aboard a J train that was relaying.
The photo of an R train on J4 can be explained in any number of ways. But first, I'd like to know where all the people are. Dtrain states that the train was "packed", yet I see no sign of a packed subway car. We all know what a packed subway car looks like. Some passengers should be visible through the storm door window if the train was as packed as Dtrain22 states. Anyone who knows subways, knows that if a s/b R arrived on J4, the T/O would've been bombarded by passengers with questions from the "on" side. Look at his picture. There's no one around. And let's say this R train did take a wrong lineup, don't you think one of the many platform C/R's assigned to Chambers for the GO would've told the C/R on that train that something was wrong, before going into the relay?
My guess is that Dtrain22 took a photo of an R train that was out-of-service, and relaying from J4 then back up to the J3 or J1 LU positions, or the train itself was simply rerouted for some reason. Dtrain22 states that he later saw emergency personnel near Marcy. It's possible that s/b J trains were turned for a short time, and an R was sent through to provide service in the n/b direction.
There are just too many conveniences. Dtrain22, who has posted about 200 messages on this board in the last few weeks, just happened to be on this wrong route R train, with his camera ready to take a picture of the yellow over yellow? I'm not buying it.
But mebbe the pic in question was taken AT THE POINT WHEN HE DEBOARDED
-JUST BEFORE- Fulton was announced to be the next stop.
(so the train was less full prior to the announcement)
What I do find baffling is how "4 line passengers waiting for this R"
are NOT VISIBLE on the blurry image of the train re-entering CHAMBERS...
Moreso, how the train continued to lurch NB with PASSENGERS aboard..
You'd think a TSS along the way (or C/R) would have due sensibility
to DUMP the train of SB passengers (knowing the train was to continue NB) to the Willy B.
Maybe there's more detail to the pics than he put in the writeon..
"The T/O got on the radio and mumbled something, then we proceeded over the switch into Chambers ..."
I'd guess from the hear-se that the lineup WAS challenged and mother tested and approved. All conversation is taped, should be an interesting "fair hearing" now that it's surfaced here. Alas, we'll probably never know the outcome.
You become a TO in 1980 get broken in, pick the R in 1982 you are still qualified 20+ years later for all the other lines.
When you do the garbage train you do all kinds of weird moves in places you would never imagine. You boss is a Stations Dept supervisor who gives you the moves and has likely never touched a train.
I had never seen second ave in detail before my first V trip. It was a matter of faith that what goes south must be able to go back north.
Even challanging the lineup is NOT a guarantee of no consequences unless Control OK's it. They may still have to pee in a cup and be up for discipline, it really depends on who is around.
"The buck stops here" seems to be running express only. :(
It's a shame that NYCT is the least modern of all the major operaters in the US. Read a prinction U study online this morning comparing major US operators operations
Sure, why not? NYC needs more unemployed.
He said the T/O mumbled. May not have been a challenge.
If the T/O got on the radio at all (assuming the earwitness testimony is valid) I'd bet, having been there myself, WHY they reached for Mr. Push to Talk. I'm sure the answer's on the biggie dictaphone box at control. Just sorry to hear that management is quite aware of it if they weren't already.
They USED to put a wiglet on for GO's just in case something went sideways. You know ... the old channel 5 gambit? "It's 10:00, do you know where your R train is?" :)
They USED to give GO TW/Os too, but lately they've been cutting back. So the regular TW/O must run the normal railroad, run the GO and in many cases clock trains.
Then again, it's a weekend. Wiglets don't work those. Messes up their tee-off time.
They're not unnecessary. The TA needs several in case one of them misses an hourly screwing up, one of the other 100 in the room will catch it. :-P
One of the things that worked wonders in Albany during the Cuomo years was the local newspaper would do "random audits" in the office buildings, doing headcounts, catching people doing nothing and then printing it all up. Of course the solution was to lock the doors. :)
One question: is Chambers interlocking controlled by Broad or Essex? If it's controlled by the same people as Essex it should've been OBVIOUS that was an R coming out and not a J, and for that matter there was a J right in front of us.
Arti
Alot of us pass up your questions when we get mad at the stuff you post.
A stupid decision on your part. You cut off your own nose to spite your face.
Arti
I'd have sent you this message privately, but you don't provide an e-mail address.
subfan
Arti
subfan
Arti
Arti
Arti
Arti
Arti
When the TO radioed for help the railfan just did not hear it the TO 'mumbled'. Now in theory it gives someone else an out at the expense of the TO who did try to do something.
There are at least 2 more things in that account that are a problem but somewhat subtle and for the sake of the crew I will not get into them.
Arti
On the other hand, I have written to TA and LIRR management on a number of occasions (and heard back!) about very fine, excellent work I have witnessed and wanted to offer praise about.
I'm short on sleep. I meant "conscience" Maybe I mixed it up with cous-cous (I just had dinner).
Arti
Arti
Arti
I think you guys (Jersy Mike excepted) needs Train Dude postings more than he needs yours.
At least 3 people here that can keep their mouths shut had the FULL Manhattan Bridge stuff months before you did. I am not even sure you guys have all the stuff.
It's not really a bribe. When they started posting employee screwups or embellished stories with details I warned people that employees wold stop posting stuff. It has happened and it is your loss not mine. Part of it is you guys may not really know who works for the MTA or on vintage equipment and who is not. In the last year there has been a huge dropoff in postings by employees. Part of it is the lack of support that they feel here. If they do not post you also don't find out about stuff in the pipe. Sources like ERA are good but make errors about the current goings on.
It was made very clear to us that this board was being monitored by management and some people felt it wasn't worth jeopardizing their employment. I don't think "stupid railfan comments" was the primary reason for the dropoff.
--Mark
Agreed. They didn't want to get in trouble for posting things that would possibly get them fired, maybe some of the railfans are too ingorant to realize that.
Mark Feinman's reply is on the mark. Any "juicy tidbits" posted here constitutes material Subtalkers are not always entitled to. This is a public site, and people must post with that in mind. We haven't "lost" anything because what was lost wasn't ours to begin with.
And the other reason that all types of posters are leaving is the flamage going on in other parts of this thread.
The T/O misidentified the signal aspect, the C/R should know that the two middle tracks at Chambers are dead ends and should've discharged the entire train.
A lot of problems that the crew is a fault.
RULE ONE if you're on the iron and you see a lineup that doesn't belong ... you get on the horn immediately (original posted indicated that this DID happen) and say "yo, what's with the layup lineup?" ... if they TELL you it's approved, then you take it. That's what the Dictaphone on the receiver rack is for - to bear final witness to what REALLY happened.
But GEEZ, is EVERYBODY here a freaking republican? Blame it on the lowest paid people when something goes wrong? What about all those WIGS? Don't mind me, but I have personal experience in "the motorman is ALWAYS wrong, that's why *WE* get paid the big bucks to tell you PRECISELY where to cram your damned train. :(
They are not taught them in school car and unlike foamers do not ride up front. Errors like going up 6th ave instead of 8th they are responsible and should be but stuff like this is a bit unfair for a c/r to get banged for.
Besides, by the time the C/R realizes which lineup the T/O took, its too late.
It's not too late to announce "last stop" rather than "Fulton next." Better to dump them at Chambers and make them wait for the next train than to carry them through a relay, no?
No, the 'new' track maps they gave me two months ago are pre-july 2001.
They are trying to add fuzzy reponsibilities to the titles like watching out for dogs and helping the handicapped and removing train related ones like how to overcome breakdowns.
I would have drooled all over the tracks! But that doesn't mean that passengers who are trying to get to Brooklyn should be taken around in circles. (Okay, fine, not circles. The circles are over at City Hall.)
I was also surprised to hear you talk about the people that buy 1-2 fares at a time. When I made the same suggestion that you did you went on a rant about being a poor grad student and people not having enough money to scrape up the discount. I guess you graduated and it's let them eat cake.
Did I really say that? I find it hard to believe I ever complained about bulk discounts.
For the record, yes, I've graduated, and I've been looking for a job ever since. I never buy less than $10 in fares at a time, since I'd much rather pay $1.67 than $2.00 per ride.
BTW, why was it that it couldn't go back n/b via the switch north of Broad?
See http://www.chicago-l.org/stations/images/Douglas/laramie05.jpg
http://www.chicago-l.org/stations/images/Douglas/laramie05.jpg
http://www.chicago-l.org/stations/laramie.html
The house that a rail fan, and only a rail fan could love can be seen in the movie "The Ladykillers" starring Alec Guiness, Herbert Lom and Peter Sellers. Here is the house (a movie set) and the view from the rear of the house.
Tom
Subtalker and Forgotten NY host Paul Matus is quoted in the Sunday NYTimes article on lovers' lanes, a subject your webmaster has too little knowledge about since starting...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Well duuuh, I wonder why!?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In NYC we call that submarine race watching ! But you need to keep the "long conversations" down so you don't miss anything ;-)
I wonder how many times the Far Rock branch of the A line late at night would be a mini-respite for a couple. After all, it's a good six minutes from Howard Beach to Broad Channel.
The train would have to be using R-44's. R-38's wouldn't work.
Jay Su Kris To!
"Since I had not pad ..." What in the name of Christ is that supposed to mean?
Jimmy
You mean she was actually wearing it? :0)
To be honest, this stunt was planned.
--Mark
Is THAT a MAGLite, or is your battery overcharged? (nah, won't go into "she PEES standing up") ... heh. Seen it all on NYPD though, I'll bet. My buddies back at the 52 did. :)
Please don't!
Plumb beach was my favorite spot. Close to home. My game was to pull out a blanket, a bottle wine and go for a walk on the beach.
The secound parking lot closer to the kings plaza exit was completly closed replaced by tree's and grass in the mid 1990's
Virtually all the good spots are gone. The remaining one's have peepers.
Pre first WTC bombing the best spots were
1)under the varrazono off ramp
2) Floyd bennit feild
3) Fort Tilden in the rockaways(the toll sucked. I only took the difficult to unpants there. The National parks police patrol chases anyone parked
4)Plumb beach - both parking lot and beach
5)the park next to the VA hospitol in Bay ridge - they blocked off the path. Used to park by the far fence near the belt parkway
6)On the grass in front of the parking lot between varrazano bridge and 14th ave exit.
I feel bad for young lovers today. unless you have an apartment, it's more difficult to hook up
The beach was always the best place to go. Pluumb beach was closed at night apparently because people were complaining about prostitutes and others doing the naughty in the parking lot. I was perfectly happy with the unrenovated plumb beach parking lot. the beach is still dirty. Thankfully it look nice at night
Jimmy
--Mark
Is there anyone here familiar enough with the parts of the New York subway and elevated systems that would know where all of the flat junctions used to be but are no longer existing?
I have to assume there were once many more than at present--for instance, at Chatham Junction between the 2nd and 3rd Av els. Surely there must be some people here who are interested in historical track configuration.
If you know about historical cases of crossing movements in the same direction, not at junctions per se with conflicting moves in opposite directions, that would be interesting as well.
I'm sure there were many more, but I'm only 15 and I'm not an expert. :)
Don't use age as an excuse. Your lack of frequent orbital miles doesn't preclude you from doing or learning anything, except as prohibited by law.
Culver and 5th Avenue L (36/5)
5th Avenue L/Myrtle
Myrtle/Lex/5 and Fulton access to Brooklyn Bridge
Myrtle and Park Avenue Ls at Grand
Myrtle and Lexington Ls at Grand
Lexington and Broadway L
Broadway L and Chestnut incline to LIRR
Broadway L ramp on Crescent Street to surface
Broadway Ferry and Williamsburg Bridge west of Broadway/Marcy
Fulton and Broadway Ls at (current) Broadway Junction
Fulton and Canarsie near Pitkin (replaced, now Fulton demolished)
North of Chambers for Manhattan Bridge loop access (crossing still there, but service gone)
Brighton and Fulton at Franklin Avenue
Race Track Branch from Brighton (replaced, now branch gone)
Connections between Brighton and Manhattan Beach Rwy--at different times, near Avenue I, and two different connections (NW-SE, NE-SW at Sheepshead Bay)
Sea Beach/West End north of Coney Island Creek
Sea Beach/West End at Bath Junction (pre-elevation)
West End/Culver at 9th Avenue (pre-elevation)
Brighton/Culver at Culver Depot (pre-elevation)
Brighton/Culver at W8 (elevated)
Would you count Franklin Shuttle crossing over south of Prospect Park?
I'm sure if I missed any, soneone will call me out in it. :)
Thanks very much for the extensive reply. There were more than I thought. It must have been a challenge to keep the headways regular and trains on time.
Fytton.
-Robert King
Wellington had trams (streetcars) from about 1920, and the system has been converted into trolley-buses which still run. They have been discussed in the newspapers this last week as there was some doubt about their future. The 60 trolley-buses are old and Stagecoach (ugh) who run them have a plan for replacement of twelve per year for five years. They will cost about the same as new diesel buses. There was doubt, though, about who pays for the maintenance of the overhead wires, which is an additional cost that diesels don't have to bear. The city seems willing to carry this cost, so the future seems assured now. They don't run trolleys at weekends a the moment, prsumably because with reduced weekend services they have enough new low-floor accessible diesel buses to cover all the routes operating. I imagine that once the new low-floor trolleys, of which a prototype is in service (I've seen it), enter service they will run all week. On my first trolley-bus ride, the trolleys dewired and the driver had quite a struggle to get them on again.
There is a cable-car funicular, which was originally a San Francisco-type operation with gripmen but was modernised twenty years or so ago. It runs on reserved track up a very steep hill, with two cars, a single track, a passing place at the middle station, and flangeless wheels on the two cars so that the same car always passes on the north track and the other one the south track at the passing place - with the odd result that alternate trips have right-hand and left-hand running at the passing place. There are five stations in all, equally spaced; even though the line is very short the extreme gradient justifies the close spacing. Most passengers go all the way, but the station one stop down from the top is also well used, as it serves the University campus where I work. There is a railfan window, but it is usually taken by children. The line is a tourist attraction, but is also used for "real" travel - it was built about a century ago to open up the area at the top of the hill for residential development.
There are three suburban rail lines each with a basically 30-minute frequency (more in the rush hour). Two are the first sections of main lines out of the city, with catenary-electrified local services for the stretches out to the end of the commuter area. The third, which I rode yesterday, is a single-track branch line (also electrified) with frequent stops and quite a lot of character. The trains are two-car EMUs - off-peak trains are only two cars - which seem quite old, and have railfan windows! The whole operation has a bit of a tramway feel to it, as the stations are unstaffed and the conductor sells tickets, and internally the trains look a bit like trams (with reversible seats). There are eight stations on the branch, of which only two are passing places with two platforms; the offpeak half-hourly service always crosses at one of these, but I assume the peak service uses the second one. The outer terminus has only one platform. At the crossing point, the driver left his cab and walked back through the train while we waited for the one coming the other way to arrive - I'm not sure why, it may have something to do with exchanging tokens - but he left his cab door open and didn't seem to mind that a couple of little boys went into the cab and pretended to drive the train!
Both the cable car and the suburban system have lots of tunnels, as the whole city is very hilly, but (apart from the bottom station of the cable car) stations are all in the open air, so I guess I can't pretend it's a subway!
The transport system seems quite well integrated, in that many bus services connect with the trains at their outer termini and other important suburbs, city buses connect with trains at a transit station alongside the main train station, and bus services do not parallel the train routes. Stations seem in a fair state of repair, despite being unstaffed with the risk of vandalism.
There was a news item the other day that Auckland, the other city in NZ with a suburban rail system, is going to invest millions in upgrading it (very necessary, by all accounts). Initially the work will entail refurbishing stations, but new trains may come later.
Fytton.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/194/metro/Violent_crime_increases_on_MBTA+.shtml
Assaults up by 27% is indeed a big jump.
I don't know the specific stats on Cambridge and South Boston. But that is only part of the Red Line; it also goes through areas like Dorchester, which statistically has had a higher rate of crime. However, I am not sure if the crime on the Red Line comes from one specific area; I simply don't have the stats on that situation. -Nick
frankly, i was not surprised that the crime is up on the mbta. i was more surprised by the fact that crime is down in other parts of boston. in fact, i do not believe that is accurate -- as carter (mbta police chief) said, we are in some very tough economic times, and when there isn't money to go round, people fight for it. last year, just by reading the globe, i can remember at least 5 shootings that had been reported.
the problem with papers like the globe is that ultimately it is written by the middle class for the middle class. so they have a tendency to paint violent crimes in the suburbs as "shocking" while reporting shooting in roxbury, dorchester, or other south side neighborhoods as "yet-another-incident" by citing the last time someone was shot in the vicinity. all they are doing is reinforcing the "reputation" dorchester etc have for being "unsafe", when really the level of crime that is observed there is quite consistent with the population and the mean level of income. the higher the population, the more crime, but the "crime per capita" actually decreases. so even though there is more crime, you are less likely to get mugged because, well, there are more people for the mugger to choose from.
there have been many high profile violent crime incidents in the allegedly "suburban" or "safe" areas in the boston metro area over the past 2 years. molly bish (rape and murder), a shooting in porter sq, a shooting at friend st., and a serial rapist in north end comes to mind. it's not that these areas are safe, it is just that those areas have people with more money and they consider themselves safer. somehow, newspapers fall for that trap too, probably because those who write live in those "safe" areas and they don't want to admit they are just likely to be shot as someone living in the inner urban neighbourhoods.
AEM7
dorchester, MA
NOW, REPEAT AFTER ME
OSAMA IS DEAD. WE HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR BUT FEAR ITSELF.
This is not all that different from the catholic crusaders
Top Ten Bush Excuses For Not Finding WMD's
---------------------------------------------------
10. "We've only looked through 99% of the country"
9. "We spent entire budget making those playing cards"
8. "Containers are labeled in some crazy language"
7. "They must have been stolen by some of them evil X-Men mutants"
6. "Did I say Iraq has weapons of mass destruction? I meant they have goats"
5. "How are we supposed to find weapons of mass destruction when we can't even find Cheney?"
4. "Still screwed up because of Daylight Savings Time"
3. "When you're trying to find something, it's always in the last place you look, am I right, people?"
2. "Let's face it -- I ain't exactly a genius"
1. "Geraldo took them"
(well, I'm off to a Carribean vacation and some Cuban cigars)
You got Dave's Top Ten. He is a god! :-P
We don't know this for sure
"WE HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR BUT FEAR ITSELF."
I agree; we just need to be vigilant in some areas. However, I don't know if stopping a railfan or tourist taking photos of the subway should be apart of this vigilant effort. -Nick
If only you would pitch this thread to the MTA folks and not to us
TRANSIT THEMED folks....
Back to the homeballs and WDs.. please.
"WE HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR BUT FEAR ITSELF"
John
(Someone on the other platform was playing a boom box at full volume. I'm surprised nobody in the police station upstairs heard it. More likely, nobody cared. It's nice to know that tickets are being issued for videoing the 7 line but not for disturbing hundreds of passengers.)
After about 20 minutes of nothing (no trains or announcements), a SB train finally arrived. It was signed for Bedford-Nostrand and the lights were all on, but it sped through the station without stopping.
About 5 minutes later, we finally got an announcement: due to a stalled train, G service in both directions was suspended, and the S/A was authorized to distribute block tickets. (That surprised me right there, since the L was running, and general policy AIUI is only to distribute block tickets if there's no train service running in any direction at all from the station.) The S/A was unfamiliar with the bus routes in the area and only had Queens bus maps. (The only map on the wall was a subway map.)
I hung around a while longer. An L train came in and passengers streamed off to the G. I encountered a fellow passenger, arguing with a transit worker that the platforms were crowded again and that somebody should make another announcement. The transit worker and S/A both insisted than there was an announcement ten minutes earlier and that was sufficient. We both tried to explain to them that everyone who was there for that announcement was gone, and that these were different people on the platforms who hadn't heard any announcement at all, but to no avail. I suggested that the platforms be taped off and was scoffed at in response.
After about 20 minutes, I hopped on an L.
Attention S/A's: You're well aware that your position, at least in its current form, is in jeopardy. Many of you have tried to convince us and others that you perform a valuable, even necessary, service. This incident doesn't help your cause. Some S/A's are apparently unaware of the basic concepts of traffic flow on subway platforms -- in particular, that people come and go at all times.
Where on earth was that light train going, and why couldn't it take passengers?
I don't know when service started up again, but a few hours later I did see a Brooklyn-bound G train at Roosevelt.
Sean
Wheaton Station - longest escalator on the western hemisphere (longest escalator is in Hong Kong)
The "Penguin Rush Hour" mural at the Silver Spring station is pretty cool. here is a link to it:
http://www.homestead.com/silverspringhistory/penguin.html
Wheaton Station: One of the longest escalators in the world.
Now, for a bit of trivia, which station used to have the longest escalator in the world?
I just sent you an e-mail, pls respond off the board. Thanks.
I don’t thing I ever posted the figures I compiled on the long escalators on WMATA so here it is.
Inventory of stations with escalators over 45' 13.71m vertical rise.
A Route Red Line
Dupont Circle (A03)
3 escalators north end surface to in train hall mezzanine.
94’ 5 3/4" 28.79m
3 escalators south end surface to in train hall mezzanine.
84’ 9 1/4" 25.83m
Woodley Zoo Park (A04)
3 escalators intermediate level below surface to in train hall
mezzanine.
103' 2 1/2" 31.45m
Cleveland Park (A05)
3 escalators intermediate level below surface to in train
mezzanine.
58' 9 3/8" 17.92m
Van Ness (A06)
3 escalators intermediate level below surface to in train hall
mezzanine.
56' 6 1/8" 17.30m
Tenleytown (A07)
3 escalators intermediate level below surface to in train hall
mezzanine.
81' 3 1/2" 24.76m
Friendship Heights (A08)
3 escalators intermediate level below surface to in train
hall
mezzanine
65' 10 3/4 20.08m
Bethesda (A09)
3 escalators intermediate level below surface to in train hall
mezzanine.
107' 6 1/2" 32.77m
Medical Center (A10)
3 escalators surface to in train hall mezzanine.
100' 11 7/8" 30.78m
B Route Red Line
Wheaton (B10)
3 escalators from surface mezzanine to platform.
115' 5" 35.17m
C Route Blue Orange Lines
Rosslyn (C05)
4 escalators from surface mezzanine to platform.
97' 9 1/4" 29.80m
Pentagon (C07)
*3 escalators from Pentagon Concourse to mezzanine.
59' 3/4" 18.00m
K Route Orange Line
Court House (K01)
**3 escalators surface to in train hall mezzanine
48' 6 1/4" 14.76m
All Stations in deep rock except Court House and Pentagon
Station in cut and cover**
Deepest station in cut and cover*
John
This has been hash over many times on misc.transport.urban-transit. groups.google.com revels some of the discussions.
Are you sure it read "world" and not "hemisphere" That 100m 328’ I recall being quoted as the length in Saint Petersburg Russia is longer then Wheaton Station (B10).
I pulled this from a groups.google.com search.
"Wheaton is 115' vertical, but there are some others around the world
that are much taller (the ones outside the former Soviet Union have
all been built in the 1990's):
377': Ocean Park, Hong Kong; part of the "Hillside Escalator" system
(I believe there are actually three others of similar height
that are part of the Hillside Escalator system)
214': Kiev, Ukraine; Arsenalnaya station
195': St. Petersburg; Ploshchad Lenina station
165': Moscow
138': Kagawa, Japan; Reoma World
130': Portland, Oregon; Washington Park station
When the Rosslyn Metrorail opened in 1979, IIRC the local news stations
reported that it was the second tallest escalator in the world, with the
tallest being in Moscow. However, I don't know if even that claim was
accurate, since I don't know when the Kiev and St. Petersburg escalators
were built."
Note the Hong Kong Hillside Escalator is not a single unit
John
The St Petersburg system dates from the 1940s-1950s.
Right you are. Cody Pfanstiehl WMATA Director of Community Service from 1961 to when he retired in the late 1980s always pointed out when questioned about the longest escalators on WMATA that the longest escalators in the world were in the Soviet Union.
John
John
BTW, have run running up that thing ;-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Also worth checking out is the Anacostia station which has a different design than most metro stations. Check pictures from the DC Metro overview here on nycsubway.org
Yellow Line: Charles R. Fenwick Bridge across Potomac River. Best to do in spring, though. Also of note is the partly underground Huntington station.
Blue Line: Just look at Pentagon. If it's a problem that you can't photograph the station itself... Rosslyn looks just like it! You also get a nice view of DC between Pentagon and Arlington Cemetery. Of course, both Blue and Yellow give you National Airport Station for photos.
Green Line: Check out the new end of the line at Branch Aveue in Silver Hill, MD. Anacostia is about the only deviant from the waffle and arch ceilings designs, worth checking out. Prince George's Plaza station is pretty, and there's the split-level Fort Totten. Oh, and a little station known as L'Enfant Plaza... nice place to get a crossway picture, and a great place to be trampled in rush hour (I was once).
Orange Line: Vienna branch is in the I-66 median (Kinda like SEPTA's Spring Garden station on the Market-Frankford Line, but with more distance) from Vienna to East Falls Church. Underground stations at Ballston, Virginia Square-GMU and Clarendon have no platform pylons, no major change, but worthy of notice. The New Carrollton segment is where the action is. Amtrak's Northeast Corridor trackage (Shared with MARC's Penn Line) runs alongside the Orange trackage, an th undulating tracks give off a "roller coaster" effect.
Red Line: Camera at the ready between Shady Grove and Grosvenor. Scenic stations and area, despite a couple tunnels. There's the escalator at Dupont Circle. The Q Street entrance, I think... They don't call it "The Bowl" for nothing. There's the missing bit of the arch at Farragut North, Metro Center's crossway, Union Station, and of course, that deep hole in the ground called Forest Glen. Just being that far underground is amazing enough.
By the way, in case my handle didn't give it away... I'm from Philly as well. I was born in Wynnefield, so "R6" it is! (Now, it'd be more like "R3", since I'm in Yeadon...)
The "view" from the Blue Line around Arlington Cemetery is not that great during the winter when there is no foliage, you can't see anything really interesting during the summer as a result because of the foliage though it is still a nice run.
Orange Line near New Carrollton has a series of flyovers which are fun to ride at 75 MPH (and at normal speeds as well)
The arch at Farragut ends because of a provision for the inner city expressway or something to that effect. Needless to say, it has never existed. There isn't much to see at Forest Glen since all it has are platforms and elevators, better going to Wheaton which is identical except it has the longest escalator in the system. Forest Glen is too deep for an escalator. Also, Grosvenor is an excellent place for photographs if you exit the system.
Good advice, I do like your comments about taking pics at Grosvenor--Jeremiah and I found that to be true during the last Subtalk DC.
Personally, I kinda like the shot at the Capitol from the Rhode Island Ave. Station and the way the inbound and outbaound tracks split for the Brentwood yard---rather unusual.
Take Care,
Mark
The "inner city expressway" more commonly referred to as the "K Street Freeway" ran under K Street not L Street. The flat ceiling area on the north end of the Farragut North Station (A02) is to accommodate large diameter sewer and water pipes that run along L Street. I have a copy of the finishing contract construction drawings of the station. The drawings clearly show the outline of the K Street Freeway easement on the south end of the station. m80-52.jpg m80-114.jpg
John
Metro Center (A01 C01), point where trainhall vaults cross.
L'Enfant Plaza (D03, F03), upper level widest trainhall vault.
Rosslyn (C05) and or Pentagon (C07), split level platform transfer station. Go to south end of lower level platform in Pentagon and look in to tunnel you well be able to see the bellmouth for future Colombia Pike line.
My favorite non standard subway station Anacostia (F06). Wait, It’s the only non standard subway station.
Dupont Circle (A03), the only station with a 22 coffer precast concrete vault, and north entrance escalators are a must see.
Surface stations must sees, West Hyattsville (E07), Prince George's Plaza (E08), Eisenhower Avenue (C14), Huntington (C15) Rhode Island Avenue (B04) and Arlington Cemetery (C06). Grosvenor (A11) is best seen from the outside.
Best fasted longest ride at speed. D route from Stadium-Armory (D08) to New Carrollton (D13) I call this the rollercoaster. C and J routes from National Airport (C10) to Franconia-Springfield (J03).
John
Though a few times I've found it less clumsy to just throw it in my bag and have the wire coming out, most people probably assume it's a cd player or something...
Hope you like! Chapter 11 Choo Choo, you may got photo of the year 2003, but come 2004, you got competition.
Christopher Rivera
You have a couple of interesting concepts that, given the right lighting (which you didn't have) might come out very well. Keep trying!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
-Robert King
Those are some nice pictures you took. Since when did the M line get the new cars?
Koi
"You can't blame him for a dirty window and poor position of the sun. Railfans, especially amature ones, have a very small set of locations and equipment as well as a severe time constraint."
He said he had 10 hours, he could have spent A LOT more time on each indivisual shot, instead of taking 140+ mundane photos... Not to mention NONE of these shots are in any way "artistic," not to say they should be.
"They have to make best with what they get and I'd say that these pics are pretty good."
Guess what, back in the 50's 60's and 70's, not every railfan took pictures. Now (thanks to those damn digital cameras) ANYBODY can take a bunch of junk photos. We used to have people --Doug Grohtjahn, Joe Testagrose, Steve Zabel, Jerry Appleman (to name a few.) They all took QUALITY photos, and they didnt show there stuff that came out CRAPPY at ERA meetings... THOSE WHERE THE DAYS!!!! If you don't have the time, you don't have the equipment, and you don't have the skills, DON'T TAKE PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!
What the heck do you think this is? The Professional Photographers Exchange Group Message Board? You comment only marks you and an elietst snob. While his photos might not be up to your high and mighty standards they are pretty good from a Joe Railfan point of view. From a purely Railfan point of view the things that matter in a photo are, in approximite order of importance, blur, darkness, content, (haze/crispness, brightness, detail), framing and background. Mr. Rivera's photos generally hit the important elements which makes the photos fine from a railfan perspective.
Furthermore, Mr Rivera is clearly trying to be experimental in many of his shots. The sunlight reflected in the face of the Slant R40 stands in contrast to its generally dirty gray and dull appearance. While it might meet mainstream photographic norms, we should not deride Mr. Rivera for striking out on his own. The only comment I would make about 6 is that he should have tried a vertical framing, capturing more of the green station columns and the green vegitation which really contrasts nicely with the front of the R-Slant-40.
Guess what, back in the 50's 60's and 70's, not every railfan took pictures.
Yes, and now we have an insufficient and spotty photographic record of the Subway system during those time periods. Interested railfans now must spend significant periods of time sorting through old records, websites and ERA gatherings to try to attempt to find some piece of information that stand a good chance of being lost forever due to the low volume of photographic output.
They all took QUALITY photos, and they didnt show there stuff that came out CRAPPY at ERA meetings... THOSE WHERE THE DAYS!!!! If you don't have the time, you don't have the equipment, and you don't have the skills, DON'T TAKE PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!
I'm amazed at how you can correctly find the lighting for your photographs with your hear rammed so far up your ass. How do you expect to cultivate "good" photographers if every time some newbie posts their photos you tell them that they are crap and should go home? You say that he should upload only "good" photos. Well where does he learn what "good" is before people ever see his work? What, will lightning suddenly hit them and endow his body with supernatural photo-taking powers? People need criticism, both positive and negitive and in both cases it should be constructive. I felt that Mr. Rivera showed a lot of great initiative with the photos he posted here today and I told him so. they are't magizine quality, but he was trying hard and deserved to some positive re-enforcement. The more photos he takes the more his skills will devolop and the better the photos will become.
If you want somewhere to view the cream of the cream of NYC Subway photography go start a Yahoo Group or something. You as moderator can be as selective as you want with what gets posted. In the meantime please don't come on this non-professional, amature forum and trash someone because they dared be creative.
PS: If you were considering comming on the PJ trip please don't let my strong words scare you off, I need everyone I can get and I never let message board disagreements spill too far into the real world.
Ha ha hah hah ha hah hah hah hah hah! Oh man I can't stop laughing! I think Brooklyn1944 once said this stuff about me too. This post should get back at him for all of his a$$inine posts.
No, now I'm just going to insult more. I'm really not very sure how to ram my "hear" up my ass; Not to mention, I never said any of that stuff about you. You just don't like me because you can't take any criticism, which shows what a closed minded idiot you are.
He said he had 10 hours, he could have spent A LOT more time on each indivisual shot, instead of taking 140+ mundane photos... Not to mention NONE of these shots are in any way "artistic," not to say they should be.
"They have to make best with what they get and I'd say that these pics are pretty good."
Guess what, back in the 50's 60's and 70's, not every railfan took pictures. Now (thanks to those damn digital cameras) ANYBODY can take a bunch of junk photos. We used to have people --Doug Grohtjahn, Joe Testagrose, Steve Zabel, Jerry Appleman (to name a few.) They all took QUALITY photos, and they didnt show there stuff that came out CRAPPY at ERA meetings... THOSE WHERE THE DAYS!!!! If you don't have the time, you don't have the equipment, and you don't have the skills, DON'T TAKE PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!"
Tell me, what is SO insulting about that?!?! I SPEAK THE TRUTH, and most of you just don't want to hear it. You either do it right, or don't do it at all -- thats basically what I was trying to say.
Guess what, back in the 50's 60's and 70's, not every railfan took pictures. Now (thanks to those damn digital cameras) ANYBODY can take a bunch of junk photos. We used to have people --Doug Grohtjahn, Joe Testagrose, Steve Zabel, Jerry Appleman (to name a few.)
Yeah, and I'll bet you walked 2 miles to school, up hill both ways, through 3 feet of snow in the scorching hot sun and now with those damn new fangled horseless carriages ANYBODY can crowd up all those places you like to go.
If you don't have the time, you don't have the equipment, and you don't have the skills, DON'T TAKE PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!
I hope you get sucked into the twilight zone and awake in a world where there are no more photos shown at ERA meetings and transit websites only have official publicity stills because the standard is so high nobody ever enters the hobby thus reducing production to zero. You'd be running down the street at the end, hands pressed to your head screaming "Where're all the photos!!! Where're all the photos!!!" and I'd be sitting at home watching you on the Sci FI channel laughing my ass off.
Tell me, what is SO insulting about that?!?! I SPEAK THE TRUTH,
The truth according to whom? What diety put you in charge of taste? Your brand of truth is about as true as that from the Bush Administration.
Actually the hole three miles were a hill.
"Your brand of truth is about as true as that from the Bush Administration."
Please don't relate me in ANY way shape or form to a Republican president, thats were I draw the line of decency. Just because I'm old doesnt mean I'm a Republican.
"The truth according to whom? What diety put you in charge of taste?"
I knew I should have worded that one differently. I'm not trying to imply that my standard is the standard of photography. I was just trying to say that instead of saying something like "There all great pictures," I give my REAL opinion.
Trains are moving targets. If I spend more than a few seconds on a shot of a train, I'm left with a shot of a track.
Not to mention NONE of these shots are in any way "artistic,"
I can only speak for myself, but I find the platform-level bit an interesting artistic device. Sure, the execution could use some work, but that's something he can pick up over time.
not to say they should be.
Quite correct. Artistic photography has its place, but so does simple documentary photography. I grew up on the IRT of the 70's and early 80's, and I'd love to see some pictures of the train interiors of that era. You know what? I've found one. That's why I take boring, entirely unartistic shots of train interiors.
Tell me, what is SO insulting about that?!?! I SPEAK THE TRUTH, and most of you just don't want to hear it. You either do it right, or don't do it at all -- thats basically what I was trying to say.
Actually, no. No one does it right on the first try. It takes time to learn, and the only way to learn is with practice.
Ok, I'm sorry, I was thinking of someone else.
HE ASKED FOR OPINIONS!!!!! Christopher isnt upset at all, and he even said he appreciated the criticism! He asked for opinions/comments, and I gave him my honest opinion.
"If you want somewhere to view the cream of the cream of NYC Subway photography go start a Yahoo Group or something. You as moderator can be as selective as you want with what gets posted. In the meantime please don't come on this non-professional, amature forum and trash someone because they dared be creative."
Again, he asked for opinions. If any of you ever go to a photography class, the teacher would do the SAME THING that I just did. You need CRITISISM to better your work. You guys are just too damn soft and can't take it in the least bit.
"PS: If you were considering comming on the PJ trip please don't let my strong words scare you off, I need everyone I can get and I never let message board disagreements spill too far into the real world."
I wouldn't want to meet you for all the tea in China.
Well I am glad you're being big about it. I hope you imparted that wonderfully positive and grown up attitude to any offspring you might have produced.
:0)
If you don't have the time, you don't have the equipment, and you don't have the skills, DON'T TAKE PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!
I didn't realize we had to be professional photographers to post photos here. And how is a young guy like Chris, or some of the others supposed to be able to afford the "equipment", and they have to start somewhere, and learn what their style will be, or develop the skills. Telling him to "DON'T TAKE PHOTOS!!!!!!" is not going to help him develop the skills, etc. And in order to learn to get better, they must be posted so others can point out what is good, or what could have been done different for next time.
"Telling him to "DON'T TAKE PHOTOS!!!!!!" is not going to help him develop the skills, etc"
I was merely responding to Jersey Mikes comment. I was basically saying if your going to do it, do it right.
"Chris, or some of the others supposed to be able to afford the "equipment", and they have to start somewhere, and learn what their style will be, or develop the skills. Telling him to "DON'T TAKE PHOTOS!!!!!!" is not going to help him develop the skills, etc. And in order to learn to get better, they must be posted so others can point out what is good, or what could have been done different for next time."
I started photography at age twelve, I had a 15 year old Calumet, stand up large format camera and I turned a closet into a darkroom. The only money I had was the money I worked for. I had to start somewhere too. I didn't have an "INTERNET" to post my photos, I knew what turned out good, and I knew what turned out bad; and I think Christopher can see that aswell.
So you admit that your sence of "good" and "bad" is based solely upon your own personal judgement. If that is the case then Chris' photos should be evaluated on HIS own personal judgement and if he feels that these photos are "good" then they are "good".
Post after original post, to Christopher:
"Sorry if wrongly accused (I do it often because I'm an old bitter jerk). Your right, people like me and Anon_e_mouse have the most experience -- we want to see the next generation of photographers have QUALITY! You have interesting techniques, but you need work on lighting and composition... Practice makes perfect."
Great photos, I especially liked the 45th Road one, the way the building shadow gives a gradient on the wall and in the middle of the sign is cool.
And am I insane or was 45th road red last week.... and tan the week before? Who keeps changing the paint colors!
The station was red on Sunday and green on Thursday.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE post a link where thumbs are viewable...
These pics take FOREVER to load on my particular unit and slow down the D's.
I'm not the only one barkin.
(And now I'm complaining that your sense of humor is malfunctioning. Perhaps it needs some sleep.)
Buggin' LOL.
Thanks for the tap, David!!
Good for you, spud..
Some of us DONT HAVE 20 minutes to sit around and chew our nails.
I was suggesting text links for the mere fact that we could sit waiting 20 minutes
for a boatload of Rmadillo pics (which can be an offputting wait---
--to someone who doesnt like Rmadillos)...
Whereas TEXT LINKS give us a BETTER fore-warning of WHAT WE will get to see at waiting (and clicking).
(Similar request was made after SMEE when 4753489753489 pics were put
in a SINGLE post, rather than on a clickable album page)...
I praise Rivera's & Weinberg's madtastic efforts and workmanship...
but please, spare us 28.8k dial-uppers among you.
Now whine down, Trains up!
:)
Arriba!
The platforms practically touch the bridge.
I hadn't planned on getting that photo. I wanted to check up on 207th, but when my train switched to the middle track, I figured I'd go for some photos instead.
I don’t think the first two low-level photos worked particularly well: try cropping a lot of the foreground (the boring platform bits) and see if they work better.
John
Wait a sec...where were you when you took that sunset-line pic? I witnessed it at QBP and photographed it at Astoria Boulevard on the B train. Were you on Astoria or on the Flushing Line?
Pic #5 is a little odd...Personally, I would've scrapped it after seeing pic how #6 came out-a little bright, but otherwise fine.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
--Mark
R-16 at Continental
Now doesn't that just scream "ride me". Now, here was my attempt at duplicating that spectacular shot.
R-46 at Continental
Now, why did the MTA have to go and put that in my way? I tried to find a way to somehow photo around it, but then the angle would be too steep! Now I'm pretty sure that moving the room to be flush with the end of the platform would have salvaged the area, but there appears to be an abandoned facility there... gee, why didn't they just put what's in that room (cleaning supplies) there!
So, does anyone else have an example of this happening, what was once the perfect spot now ruined?
-Robert King
I was planning to duplicate a shot taken in Penn Station in 1955, but I've been told the light and shadows are different now. :-) Let's face it, it is not the spot the picture is taken from that makes the magic. It is what the photographer sees at a given moment and freezes forever to allow others to share in his experience.
Tom
Dave's got A TON of good shots stored up in this here haven.
(OK... waaaaay too much Dew, tonight!)
(These are clickable thumbnails which open up the image at real size):
Any comments or suggestions? be critical if you must.
The 2nd would make a DANDY postcard, brah.
THANKS FOR THE T-H-U-M-B-N-A-I-L-S.
Thanks for thumbing them.
I like the train of CAFs heading to Greenbelt (E10) taken from the inbound platform at Prince George's Plaza (E08) in the late afternoon sun.
The action pic (2), Phil Portlock the staff photographer at WMATA has taken a bunch of pictures very similar to this one to create the very same affect. Some of them were used in various WMATA publications.
John
When the weather is great and you get perfect lighting and good composition, you can get a great picture.
Chaohwa
I am curious about several things.
* What is the ISO of these pictures?
* What are the resolutions of these photos, 2272 x 1704 or 1600 x 1200?
From your website you have a Canon PowerShot S40. Since I also have a Canon PowerShot S40, I would like to know how you set the train photos.
Chaohwa
As for ISO speed, I really don't remember, plus the EXIF data on the pics don't tell me what is. I think it is ISO 50 if I can recall correctly.
All pics are 1024x768
How do I set the train photos? What exactly do you mean?
Bad English for me. :P
As for the ISO display, if you still store your photos on your CompactFlash card, push the DISPLAY bottom and you will see your photo settings in a particular photo.
Chaohwa
For my camera settings, it really depends on what the conditions are. Ideally, you want to shoot with fastest shutter speed possible because if you don't, the train will be blurred. I usually let the camera do the choosing of the shutter speed and apeture opening, mainly b/c the camera seems to almost always pick the right one. rarely does it pick a shutter speed/apeture setting that is wrong for the type of picture I want.
I would use the full manual controls on my camera but that would take too long b/c I would have to readjust my shutter and apeture settings everytime the lighting or scenery changes.
The only time I use full manual is when I am shooting in very low light and the subject in question doesn't move for while so I can take advantage of the slow shutter speed. This is usually when I do not prefer my subject to be blurred.
I use the auto shutter/apeture setting on mine. Unlike the full AUTO mode on my camera, the P mode allows me to adjust white balance, flash intensity and exposure rate
Here are the main pics
http://palter.org/~brotzman/06-13-03_BOSTON_ACELA_TRIP/Part2/
And the Tower pics
http://palter.org/~brotzman/Towers/
Here is the lineup at South Station, two AE trainsets and a private car.
Here is the heartpounding moment as the NJT train emerges at full speed from the North River Tunnel.
Enjoy, Comments are very welcome, both negitive and positive.
Here are the main pics
http://palter.org/~brotzman/06-13-03_BOSTON_ACELA_TRIP/Part2/
And the Tower pics
http://palter.org/~brotzman/Towers/
Here is the lineup at South Station, two AE trainsets and a private car.
Here is the heartpounding moment as the NJT train emerges at full speed from the North River Tunnel.
Enjoy, Comments are very welcome, both negitive and positive.
This was the only picture I found in nycsubway.org taken from the railroad tracks above the Ditmas Blvd. El Station.
Earlier today I was out doing some railfanning around the Philly area (From 30th Street Station: R8 to Norristown, Route 100 to 69th, Route 101 to Media, R3 back to 30th Street) and after almost a year of living in Philly, I finally managed to ride the Route 100 Norristown High-Speed Line for the first time. Route 100 was rather interesting overall, and has some scenic sections to it, but one observation really jumped out at me:
As most of you know, Route 100 uses third rail power. However, the tracks are at grade for several portions of the trip, and there was rarely ever any sort of a fence to keep people off the tracks. The areas along the line are mostly residential, and in many cases the tracks passed within spitting distance of people's back yards, with no fence! Although the third rail is covered and the vast majority of adults would be smart enough to avoid it like a snake, what's to stop some curious kid from getting onto the tracks and sticking a hand or foot in the wrong place when mommy and daddy aren't looking? Aside from the electrical hazard, there's also the fact that the trains move along at a good clip and often have limited visibility due to curves.
As much as I'm generally loathe to side with ambulance-chasing trial lawyers, it seems like this is a huge lawsuit waiting to happen. It certainly woulnd't kill SEPTA to put up some fences before it comes to that, no?
And speaking of death on the tracks, while I was riding the 101 trolley to Media, some idiot in a Grand Prix decided to run a red light and make a sudden left turn in front of the trolley. The operator slammed on the brakes and blew the horn... I'd guess we missed the car by only a couple feet at most, and the motorman almost had a heart attack. If nothing else, the driver of the Grand Prix now probably has permanent hearing damage from the trolley's horn blowing in his face... That thing was friggin' LOUD. What an incredibly stupid thing to do....
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Once I was riding the Rt 100 and we had to stop for some teems crossing the tracks. They stepped right over the 3rd Rail like it was no big deal at all. Also, on the MFL at 69th St I saw some kids trying to sneak over to the fare control platform from the non-FC platform and one kid put his hand on the top of the underrunning 3rd rail and vault over it. That insulative cover did its job and nothing happened, but those kids showed that 3rd no respect whatso ever.
It always makes me wonder just how dangerous the 3rd really is.
Touch it and find out. Ground yourself beforehand, too.
I just read a news story on a company that will repair high tension lines without shutting the power down.
They work from a helicopter, and thus are not grounded.
Elias
-Robert King
Paycheck ain't big enough to make ME want to do it though.
The problem is not so much the 360KV, it’s the KAs that back it up!
You can be a personal hot dog demo…
-Robert King
On second thought, the paycheque isn't big enough to make me want to do it, damp or dry, either.
-Robert King
Makes NYCTA's power department seem like sissies. :)
Eventually though it'll catch up to everybody, but I guess they figure the 3rd is fence enough.
Then they give you a REAL show - same nails, another doggie, 18 KILOVOLTS. BLAM! Bottom line, your twitchiness demonstrates wisdom, even if you've never had to LOOK at the results of someone who ended up kissing that steel. :(
Does anyone know how many accidents occur per year because of that third rail?
Always nice to be missed... I ended up taking a break from SubTalk a couple months ago due to all the stupid political threads and general idiocy on the board, in addition to being preoccupied with my own busy life here in Philly.
I'm still at Drexel (I'm actually working on my undergrad degree, not my graduate degree), although I've decided to take a year-long break from classes while I get some debts paid off and get some personal issues under control. Up until early June I was working full-time for a mid-size architecture firm in Collingswood, NJ, but was let go from that job last month. Right now I'm trying to collect unemployment while I look for a new job. I had to give up my car earlier this week because I couldn't keep up with the payments, and now I'm relying on SEPTA for my transportation needs until I can save up enough money for another car. (I'm also struggling to keep my apartment here in Philly, which I just moved into in April.)
To be totally honest, things have been going pretty rotten for me lately... I think I've become pretty burned-out on the state of the architecture profession these days (not to mention the corporate world in general), and I've been giving a lot of thought about what I want to do with my life. I'll probably stay in architecture, but that's no longer as certain as it once was.
Anyway, that's the latest dirt on me....
Peace,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
P.S. Kevin Walsh: Try e-mailing me again. I was out of town for a few days a couple weeks ago, and my inbox managed to fill up. But now that it's been purged, I should be able to receive messages again.
www.forgotten-ny.com
-- Ed Sachs
I mean COME ON. WHAT COULD THEY BE THINKING?!?!? It's almost as bad as this little gem I saw on the platform at Penn Station.
Sheesh, no wonder Amtrak can't make any money.
Let's take the bus example. If someone is going to ride a bus from Boston, even if they see 20 Amtrak ads at the bus station, they will ignore it. Most people who travel New York to Boston are aware of the bus, but only some are aware of the train. Therefore, those who travel by train are likely to know about the bus already. And if they are choosing to pay $130 to travel by train, then they won't really give a crap about the difference between $65 (the old fare) and $40 (the new greyhound round-trip fare).
It's Greyhound that's the bonehead here. If they want to subsidize Amtrak, I don't see any problems.
AEM7
I could see Greyhound telling passengers at Penn Station in New York "instead of paying almost $17 for a ride on two different trains between NY and Philly, use us for a one-seat ride." Maybe that would sway a few (Greyhound does a pretty good business, overall) but the beneficiary would still be the owner of the train station hosting the ad.
Only if their contract with the billboard company gives them that right
It's a control room... so it's likely only LADDER-EQUIPPED techs
were meant to gain access... (plain guess)
Its light rail system isn't much to brag about, also out of the 2 farecard machines at Penn Station one was busted, and the other one only took coins, because I don't usually carry $3.50 in coins I went inside the station to get change, one of the stores don't give out change, and the Amtrak desk didn't have anymore quaters because everyone else was going there to get change, finally got change from one passenger waiting for Amtrak...anyways, The city only got one subway line that didn't go anywhere I needed to go. I would of figure they would have either Light Rail or Subway service to the Inner Harbor but there's none. The closest Light Rail station is at the Baltimore Convention center, but its still quite a walk to get there, not great when its raining. Also it's buses are junk (at least the ones I rode on).
I'm not sure if anyone has any other things to add. I'm not bashing Baltimore, but its Public Transit could be better for a "CITY".
Mark
Also, this joke of a TA suffers from:
Chronically late buses
Permanent 17 min headways on the light rail
Misplacement of artics (The busy 8 line, which runs from Hunt Valley to UMD Transit Center, which is about a 1.5 hour ride, not only never sees artics, but almost always has buses bunched up back to back to back)
Click here to learn more about what the MTA Maryland should have
Mark
The construction of this new yard was started before MTA Maryland officially announced plans to double track the parts of the line that opened as single track.
John
My acerbic comment Saturday was "The management of the Light Rail couldn't find their (expetive deleted) with a road map and a box of Kleenex."
The current transit situation is worse than the final years of the NCL controlled Baltimore Transit Company.
Actually, I really don`t blame you. I see that several lines runs every 45 minutes on Saturdays (mostly branches and extremeties of SEPTA routes in the City runs with that type of schedules, except the J and 89 buses, they run hourly on Saturdays.), and 60 minutes and more on Sundays. Also SEPTA has the smarts (a rare feat at times) to put articulated buses on their most crowded routes (particularly the 33 and the 48 to Center City, and the 6 and the 18 to Olney Terminal). And finally, the Suburbs have some reasonable service (I notice there is hardly any lines outside of the City Limits, particularly cross-county runs). SEPTA's network is miles ahead going by the extremely low standards set in Baltimore.
This is even more shocking considering that 50 miles away, the Washington, DC network (WMATA, Ride-On, TheBus) makes the Baltimore system look putrid (It puts SEPTA to shame at times too.)
As far as equipment goes, SEPTA and WMATA's oldest buses look better than many of Baltimore`s current fleet. The surviving Neoplan DK`s and WMATA 87-8900 Flx Metro B's tend to look better than the entire fleet of Flx's and NABI's in Baltimore. Is the maintenance that bad down there? I can easily say that even SEPTA's maintenence keeps up the condition of our oldest buses better than MTA Md can with their workhorse buses. Of course no one can hold a candle to WMATA's maintenence, any system that can get 30+ years out of a GM Fishbowl, is a system that knows how to keep a bus running.
Maybe someday you'll get someone who knows what they're doing.
Well you are not the only making fun of the system, just go to www.btco.net and see more of what Baltimore bus and railfans have to go through on a daily basis.
Mark
For those who want to know how projects with political support get cancelled, look to the plan to have subway access to LaGuardia. It isn't dead, because officially killing it would arouse its supporters. It becomes "undead," like a ghoul, ghost or anitamted mummy, walking the earth but not actually alive.
If contracts for the Second Avenue Subway are not awarded by election day 2004, look out -- even if no one cancels it.
A "NON-DECISION" has been made to make the subway to LaGuardia "UN-DEAD."
=================
"..Three of the plans would extend the N line through Astoria. One would be underground, another would be elevated along 31st St. and 19th Ave. and the third calls for creation of an elevated spur along the Grand Central Parkway. The fourth plan would create a guided busway from the Queensboro Bridge.."
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/100620p-90982c.html
Overall, this was Rudy G's dream/baby, and he pushed it even though the MTA was lukewarm about it. Now that he's out of office there's no one to push it anymore. Oh well....
60th Street already has three lines (you forgot the W). Ditmars can make do with just one. If this option is chosen, the W would go to the airport and the N would continue to serve Ditmars.
MTA is already starting to buy and condemn property needed to construct the 7 extension.
You know, it was supposed to continue up the Van Wyke, along GCP, past Shea, to LaG, then continue along GCP, through Sunnyside yards & across the outer lanes of the Queensborough Br to Manhattan. That plan died a painful, expensive death.
In any case, there's far more traffic between Manhattan & LaG than between LaG & JFK, so if I was build a line, I'd do that.
Prediction: no Hub, no SAS but the West Side Flushing line extension is at least started. A hunch.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Based on what? No NIMBY on either of those projects. And the HUB is FEMA money, not MTA money, so financing is not even an issue. The cash is there. All MTA has to do is award contracts and get it going.
As I've said before, there's no significant opposition to the SAS because the project's still in the talking stage (as it's been for decades ...) If it ever gets closer to reality, the opponents will come out from under the woodwork with their absurd claims. And even absurd claims can significantly delay projects.
Well, no, they can't always. Even if they end up in court. Your view of courts' willingness to hold up projects is not realistic.
I'm not against it at all, mind you. But it isn't on the front burner anymore. The SAS and 7 extension to Javits will break ground first, along with the Fulton Street transit mall, which is a FEMA-funded project (so it's easy to launch and complete).
I'm not as optimistic as you. I will be thrilled to see any capital project that improves subway service. I'm not betting on which one starts first since I'm not betting on any of them ever happening. I hope my skepticism is in vain.
Ah, but you're wrong there. It would offer two important advantages: 1) Underground (deals with NIMBY) 2)Local ADVOCATES which support the plan (YIMBY).
These are political considerations. Very important not to be tone-deaf to them.
The disadvantage, of course is cost.
There's a second disadvantage to the East Elmhurst option: it doesn't take most airport subway riders where they need to go.
That way, riders on the W,7,E,F,G,R trains could all transfer to the N train to LaGuardia at a combined Queensboro Plaza / Queens Plaza superhub.
Greetings from Philadelphia! Here we have a decent airport service, with commuter trains going to the airport every 30 minutes. The trip takes 26 minutes. Something more frequent might be nice, as would something faster. But it's decent.
My point is, if SEPTA is ahead of MTA in any way whatsoever, something just isn't right.
Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
This is also where Amtrak's Fast Mail derailed and tumbled down the embankment years ago. But like I said, it could have been much worst.
Too bad NJ Transit doesn't have an arrangement with Amtrak that fines the "host railroad" every time the host causes NJ Transit to be late. Otherwise, even with this derailment, Amtrak would still owe Transit billions!
Where are you working?
Doesn't that job fall under the engineer's title or does it vary from the railroads ?
I also remember someone saying (I belive it's Jersey Mike) that whoever screwed up will be responsible for the payment of the repairs needed to be done (In the words of JM When you derail while on trackage rights tracks the host railroad can hit you with a bill that'll make you wish you were never born.).
It is also understandable why ppl were let off the train. The pans were probably dropped so there'd be no AC, the train was more than likley SRO, if the C/R hadn't let people off there'd have been a riot. The track next to the train was out of service and by letting people out in an orderly fasion he could keep them off the inservice W/b track.
Jimmy
Jimmy
Apparantly the axle sheared off (due to heat), the guard rail on the rails stopped the cars from rolling completely off. From what I've heard, supposedly the journal detector near Edison caught the condition (see the "Hot Box" thread somehwere on this forum) and the train was stopped and inspected, then given the go to proceed...obviously somebody missed something there.
As I said before, Hotboxes are tricky to spot, even if you have the approx. car they can still be missed upon a close visual inspection. Since there are false alarms, if the C/R finds no hotbox in the flagged car or 2(or some number) cars in either direction, he can signal the train to proceed. If the train it tagged again at another detector for the same car, that car must then be set out no questions asked. If the C/R missed the hotbox and signaled the train to proceed, baring some NJT/Amt specific rule that is different than the general trend or evidence of negligence, he would not be in error for doing so.
99.9% of the time, the decision to move an "unsafe" train is made by a trainmaster or dispatcher, not by the Conductor or Engineer. If that was the case, I hope the conductor either got the order in writing, or on the radio or over the phone, since those transmissions are always taped.
Now now, he's just having a tizzy. Although the expressed desire to see another train crew "f**k" up a train isn't comforting...
Jimmy
Anyway, designing a hot bearing detector is a senior year project for an EE degree. It's neither hard nor expensive.
The proccessing power costs about $2
The power supply? $3. $5 if you go overboard.
The sensor? Maybe $5 to $50 depending on type and package.
Figure $10 for the trainline emergency stop relay and another $1 for the warning buzzer.
You could EASILY implement a really nice hot box detector on board for under $500 a car. EASILY.
To top it off, give it a serial link (go ahead, break the bank, it's only $10 more), and you can plug in every now and then and find out how the bearing performance has been. With good trending and data collection, you could predict a bearing long before it fails.
Go a little ($5, but subtract $5 off the serial link) more, add wireless to the turck so everytime the train comes into Sunnyside / Hoboken, a detector picks up performance data for that truck (bearing by bearing) and automatically notifies maintenance of any suspect trucks.
Add a $35 (actually, less) accelerometer, and you've got automatic flat wheel detection. You could also probbably monitor other dynamic issues that way.
The whole package would be sub 5 lbs and the size of a pack of playing cards, minus the externals. You could just truck mount it and forget.
This isn't sci fi guys, it's what's really possible and doable with today's technology.
$500 is just the fixed costs for the system. Such a system would then need to be inspected, tested and calibrated on a regular basis, not to mention maintained. You are also forgetting that you need 1 unit PER bearing. That means 8 per car. 8 more points of failure and 8 more points of maintainence per vehicle not counting the trainline.
And what do all these costs get you? Maybe one prevented derailment every...what...10 years? 20? When was the last time there was a hotbox induced derailment on the NEC?
Hotboxes take around 20 miles of travel to burn through and cause a derailment. The least cost solution is to simply install a few more HBD-DED's along the NEC. That just involved 16 IR detectors and the related computational circutiry.
The software would be in the neighborhood of 200 - 400 lines of assembly, depedning on what features we'd want. I'm being dead serious on that code size, I've done much more complex stuff in less space with a PIC...
And that'd be one unit per truck. The thing would STILL have plenty of spare processor left to sit and add up numbers aimlessly.
Maintenance? Gee, adjust all those little solid state switches every few years? :) It's a chip and a chip and a chip. All digital. Nothing to calibrate or maintain. Put the setpoints in EEPROM, and that's it.
Avoiding falsies? It'd be real easy to strip out bad data and flag it as such. Real easy.
The type of sensor i'm thinking of is digital. There's no analog themister/op amp/AD converter at all. The data comes out of the probe as a serial stream, as often as you want.
Sealed and potted, it'll outlast the train car. Nothing hard here.
It's zero maintenance. Because there's nothing to maintain :)
Cheaper than wayside detectors? That's a debate that goes into what awayside detector and all costs, Vs what equipping a fleet of cars would cost, plus other issues like maintenance costs, and 'missed' trains like the one that just derailed. This could go on for quite a while.
I'll take the high road - $1,000 per train car. This assumes development costs, and a really nice metal potted case, in addition to parts/manufacturing. Now, how many hotbox detectors and their maintenance for the next 20 years would, say, $1,000,000 buy :)
Yes, except for the 4 probes and 5 wires on a truck that has several non-static connections and is constantly vibrating. Not to mention the issues with enviornment, placement or energy fields from traction motors if any.
Avoiding falsies? It'd be real easy to strip out bad data and flag it as such. Real easy
I'm not talking bad data, I am talking about good data that indicates a hotbox that does not exist. Lineside HBD's have a significant proportion of false readings, imagine if you had a continuious monitoring. there's be delays all over the system.
You are going to need the HBD's anyway for freight equipment, so there is no savings from truck mounted models.
EMI is an issue, but the issues with AC drives and such are known and able to be dealt with. More serious would be a high voltage hit to the system, but even that can be dealt with...
Environment? Potted in sillicone, it's impervious to water, very vibration resistant. Connections would require something like a Deutsche (tm) connector, which is a type that's proven to work in extreme conditions, and designed for it.
In any case, a failed sensor could just be locked out and notification via whatever mode you want be posted. This can be automatic.
With an RF link available, I'd envision the following:
* A simple box, about the size of a paperback book and same weight, bolted to the truck. Contains the electronics, is potted, has a few jacks on the outside.
* A temperature sensor mounted on/near each bearing.
Durring operation, this system would monitor bearing temperatures, and truck accelerations in 2 directions. The latter would allow for flat wheel detection quite nicely, though it may require those expense ($15) microcontrollers with DSP functionality...
Power would be trainline supplied, and there'd be two outputs - emergency stop and a warning signal.
Obviously, the warning signal would come on first, if the condition quickly deteriorates or the warning is ignored for too long, a stop would be initiated.
At terminals, a simple antenna/reciever box would pick up the "black box" data collected, which could be databased and used to monitor truck/fleet performance. This would really be optional, depending on what usefulness trending of bearing temperatures would have, and if you had a flat spot detector.
Imagine as a train pulls into, say, Penn, personel at Sunnyside could know that it has flat wheels and which cars were the worst, and also if any bearings / trucks appeared to be suspect. They'd know ahead of time, meaning the decisions on what to do could be made before the train arrives in the yard, as opposed to later.
Obviously, this is really only needed for passenger equipment, but it's a more rational approach to a problem than the existing one (i.e. overbuild the carbody and pray hard).
So it'd work like those ACELA doors where a minor fault take a train out of service for a half hour. Or those wonderful "Check Engine" lights that are always bugging you about problems that don't exist. The more sensors you have the more problems you find and then you're in a maintainence nightmare.
ALSO I HAVE MANY OTHER JOBS BESIDES BEING A MACHINE OPERATOR. I DO THINGS FOR AMTRAK AND NJ TRANSIT. IF U HAVE EVER RIDDEN ANYTHING IN THE NEWARK PENN STATION AREA, I KNOW WHO IS CONTROLLING UR TRAINS AND I KNOW WHO'S HANDS UR LIFE IS IN. SO UNTIL U KNOW WHO UR DEALING WITH, I STRONGLY ADVISE U KEEP TO URSELF
Here is something I really don't understand:
Railroad types (managers and engineers) seem to have a real problem with discussing safety issues in public forums, unless they become aware that they are talking to an informed audience and they are assured that they will not be quoted out of context.
Looking at the posting by A 8TH AVE FULTON EXP here, I can see why railroad types (esp. managers) would feel somewhat uneasy. It was an ongoing investigation and obviously any "insider" information, whether accurate or not, should not have been posted to a public forum.
But why is open discussion of such issues as signalling, rules, operations, and who-should-have-done-what so taboo? Instead of saying that the conductor will get fired, if A 8TH AVE FULTON EXP has instead asked questions about operating procedures (e.g. what the crew should have done, did the crew judge the situation correctly when he [allegedly] ordered the train continue in service to NYP despite a hot axlebox -- by the way, not an uncommon occurance, and I've used one of those templesticks too)... would he still have been crucified by the railroad types?
Here's my own perspective. I've been wearing a transit planner hat for a while now, and I sort of understand why I don't always like discussing transit planning with the "laymen". I often get hit with the question "why can't MBTA improve service" (I am not an MBTA employee), and I always have to go through this long explanation of how the T doesn't have money, and how they will tend to spend money where there are the highest number of riders, and how the planners determines amount of service to provide, and why the #86 bus hadn't showed up and we'd been waiting for 30 minutes. And often people are very critical of me and often I have to really try hard to win them over and communicate to them the realities of constrained resource allocation. But every once in a while, I succeed, and people understand that if they want to have beefed up #66 service they might lose some other bus service that is more critical -- unless they want to pay $2.00 for fares.
With all respect to the railroad types on this board... can we try to be nicer about explaining things. Sometimes, people just have to be told. I understand why Dutchrailnut reacted as he did, and I would have done exactly the same thing (I have a temper, and I am far more intolerant of ignorance than Dutchrailnut I am sure). But once we are done trading the insults, isn't it better to say "please do not speculate about someone's employment situation and do not post unverified information" and then go on to explain the real issues. I really don't see why A 8TH AVE FULTON EXP should be barred from every working for Metro North as a result of this episode. Instead his unprofessionalism demonstrated here should be immediately corrected and his knowledge of railroading updated by a more senior railroader. Whatever happened to the old days when the old heads would help the trainees learn the craft? Learning the craft include learning the rules AS WELL AS how you should deal with a difficult professional situation -- like one where a fellow railroader might come under fire for something that he allegedly failed to do.
Subtalk is an opportunity for railroading education. I want to take the maximum advantage of it, and I want to learn about operations.
AEM7
Pantograph
Were any of you stuck on a train during that blackout? Were any of you working for Transit during this time and were involved with the rescue efforts of stranded trains? What were your experiences?
I was a 17 year old kit in sleepaway camp breaking the news to my friends as I heard it over CBS 880 over a small transistor radio.
--Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
--Mark
Remember in the late 70's when Times Square was in jeopardy of being turned into office space? I was there when they staged the "shut off" of Times Square (to show people what it would look like dark), this post just kinda reminded me...
Mark
Just Kidding,
I couldn't
resist!!
Hey
if
anyone
can
read
this
let
me
know!!!
It's a chain.
They're everywhere.
-Mark
See what I mean?
<font color="#ffffff">Top Secret Message</font>
The result will be:
Top Secret Message
Enjoy!
-Mark
Not a problem at all. Besides, it's so easy to do some really neat things with just few html tags, that I feel I should spread the know-how around.
-Mark
--Mark
And we're staining our pants over a bunch of gangsters in the MidEast. The RUSSKIES could have killed us all, not just a few of us. But everybody in the city that we had been talking to were just plain flipping out. Then came Reagan. ("The bombing will begin in five minutes, is this thing on?") :-\
How is that possible?
I never understood why people use candlelight during blackout. Hasn't anybody heard of BATTERIES?
But yeah, while NYC couldn't see TV, there was Chuck Skumbubble ON CAMERA by candlelight! Heh.
Mark
Seems like they were ALWAYS owned by GE after General Sarnoff died. Words cannot DESCRIBE my gratitude that I don't have to watch the five networks anymore. But yeah, Chuck was there in a ROMANTIC setting. Heh.
Mark
It's so much more romantic...
During the Hurricane of 1985, we had no power for five days and used a kerosene lamp with a mantle. Produced a bright, even light (about like a 60W bulb) but it's still tiring to read by. You begin to understand why frontier people went to bed early.
But out coal-powered TV never quit!
Dim lighting, plus working 16 hours each day plowing, chopping, slopping, milking, etc. tends to wear one out.
Mark
But at least we GOT the pirates that have been nailing my income! (change subject up above to "software pirates (OT)" or some such and I'll tell the off-topic story. Hurt a handful of our PAID customers, but they get what we give them for *FREE* after they pay us once, and the reason I'm more toasted than USUAL at this point is making sure everyone goes away happy even IF they ain't buying me a beer. No beers. :(
But there's always WEDNESDAY when I wake up again after this shift. Heh.
I don't think too many of us will.
I recall each fireman giving me a $10 tip -- over $400 in tips was pretty cool in 1977 -- and a whole lot more than the salary for the charter!
Those rules were used until 8/8/88 at Wrigley Field when they first installed lights and played the Mets in the first night game.
Those rules were used until 8/8/88 at Wrigley Field when they first installed lights and played the Mets in the first night game.
BTW, the sherbet I loved melted in the freezer overnight.
How we evolve..... you could have DRANK that sherbet from the box
in the morning........take no guilt......... and order up Proactiv
TODAY to cure that pimpled face from '77.
How about that. I'd just moved from Gallup, NM a year earlier.
Mark
SHEEYUT!!! It wasn't until your post that I realized you guys were discussing the one that happened in the 70s!! I thought youse were talking about the first one. Only thing I remember about that first one, besides it looking cool to see all the lights out, was hearing a girl crying because she thought the Russians were attacking.
The second blackout happened about a year or two before I first actually moved into Brooklyn. In Williamsburg on S. 4th St near Union. 1974ish. (And subsequently went to E. 16th St. and Ave. R, 20th Ave and 65th St., and 84th St. and Ft. Hamilton Pkwy., over the preceding 25 years or so. Case anyone's curious)
1977, I was on vacation in Miami Beach and only read about it.
To really put things into an even sadder perspective in terms of communities hardest hit by the 1977 blackout: These people were looting and robbing their stores that they would patronize in. So instead of Black and Hispanic people getting together to help others, they start robbing stores run by the same race as themselves.
Very sad time.
Bro, that's a troublesome statement you just uttered. Any way you analyze it, it's a bad thing to say. Are you arguing the inverse of what you said? Are you condoning that inverse? And the race bit...why would that make a difference? I've read you bustin' on guys for their views regarding this topic. Might be time to look in the mirror, my brother.
Already the forces were against these neighborhoods suffering from the free spending of the Lindsay era (great man, great healer, lousy at the city's budget) people were appartently taking their opportunites out on the same people they should band together and strive to make their neighborhoods a better place. Now the neightborhoods are not only making a comeback, areas such as Bushwick, East Harlem, the Bronx all learned that getting groups together and working to improve the quality of life in their neighborhoods benefits us all. Harlem (I myself love the area, and the rich and diverse history), has been for the past few years a worthy tourist destination.
It may be wrong for me to make a statement like that, I am so sorry. However those were the facts surrounding the 1977 blackout, and I speak only the facts, not fiction.
--Mark
Everything between Franklin and Mulberry Streets was demolished for the construction of Interstate 70 to downtown Baltimore. 44 blocks became a trench for the highway and a possible rapid transit line.
The road was built between Greene Street and Monroe Street before sanity set in. I-70 would have destroyed two more areas plus Leakin Park before the road was stopped.
The median area in the road that was buily is still waiting for tracks and trains.
Would that be the Jones Falls Expressway ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The Jones Falls Expressway (JFX) is 1957 on, the riots were the result of Martin's assasination.
The only "trench" that destroyed blocks was the I-70 trench.
The trench took out everything from Franklin to Mulberry for 44 blocks. From Greene Street to Monroe.
It stops (peters out might be a better term) short of Monroe Street and the westbound traffic is shunted back to Franklin. If it had been contiuned, it would have passed over the PRR (Amtrak today) and destroyed two more neighborhoods plus a large part of a city park.
It was stopped by a coalition of the to be affected neighborhoods and Barbara Mikulski, who was in the City Council at the time, (She's our "Junior" US Senator today.) along with politicians of every stripe.
They not only stopped I-70, they also killed the extension of I-83 (the JFX) through Fells Point, where it would have connected with I-95.
My mother was home sick with the flu during the 11/65 blackout. Lucky for her. If she had followed her usual routine that day, she'd have been stuck on an A train in Brooklyn somehwere between Hoyt St. and Utica Ave.
We had just been driven out of New York by the recession, after my father had been unemployed, off and on, for two years. A hot summer followed a brutally cold winter. We drove out to Oklahoma after school ended, at the end of June. And there were lots of others like us -- my parents formed an entire social circle of refugees from New York and Philadelphia. We no sooner unpacked our TV than we looked back and saw New York burning.
If New York survived 1977, it will be a hard place to kill off.
Your family was in the vanguard of what's now a torrent of Sunbelt-bound economic refugees. I suppose Tulsa's not that common a destination, however.
FWIW, they are still idiots.
FWIW, this closing statement made my day, brah.
--Mark
After learning about the blackout, my father telephoned my grandparents, who were then in their mid-70s and lived in Brooklyn. The phones initially were not working but they were soon restored.
I remember that the weather that night was sticky and humid. My mother and I sat on our porch chatting with our neighbors until about 11:30 p.m. and then I went to bed. Fortunately, the a/c in my bedroom had been on earlier in the day and the room was still cool. I didn't know about the looting until the power came back the next morning at about 9:30 and we watched the news on TV.
I do remember the one before that. It had to be in the early '60s, because we were ready to drive to a Boy Scout meeting at the time. And that was before I entered the Navy in '66.
Oh well, at least my computer did not crash back then. Out here battery back-ups are a necessity, because we are always having 30 second outages.
Elias
Rod Serling, creator of "The Twilight Zone", used the November 1965
blackout in his novella, "Eyes", in his 1967 book, "The Season To Be
Wary". In it, a Miss Claudia Menlo gets twelve hours of sight
after committing ruthless multiple blackmail. The catch is, she gets
them during the blackout, and at first thinks her optic nerve trans-
plant operation has failed. Upon seeing the sun rise the next morning, she realizes the operation has worked, but by then it is too late. Walking toward her already-fading sight of the sun, she falls
out a broken window to her death. The story became part of the TV
movie, "Night Gallery", with Joan Crawford excellent in the role of
Miss Menlo.
Bill Wyman, in his autobiography, "Stone Alone", mentions a "Lost Jam"
occurring on the night of Nov 9 1965, that included fellow stone
Brian Jones, and Bob Dylan, "lost" because there was no electrical
power to record it.
The November 1965 blackout was the subject of the 1968 comedy, "Where
Were You When The Lights Went Out ?" with gap-toothed comedian, Robert
Morse. I know of no films or plays based on the July 1977 blackout.
A former co-worker of mine mentioned that the section of Brooklyn he
lived in (either Bay Ridge or Bensonhurst) still had power in the
November 1965 blackout.
Songs yes: The Trammps-"Where Were You When The Lights Went Out in New York City?"
Good disco music.
That's an oxymoron
Blackout of 1977
Blackout
Elvis died
Son of Sam
Don't you mean "Elvis went into hiding"?
: )
Mark
CHECK THAT PIC..............
Metrocard Advertisement on the pillar.
1977 that AINT.
But seriously that pic was too dark to make out anything!
Mark
Two can play at this game.
Here's a photo from my collection "from" the blackout of 77. At least this one is in the right timeframe!
Blackout of 1977
Memoirs of the travesty I see each time I stare into an Rmadillo's RFW..
--Mark
Detention for the Proff.
There was a mob of people trying to hail me but I already had a passenger and couldn't pick anyone up in Midtown. By the time I got all the way uptown, traffic was chaotic and more to the point - unsafe.
There was some minor looting on Upper Madison Avenue and I chose to get out of Manhattan and return to my Bronx garage. I put the "Off Duty" light on as the risks of an accident at unprotected intersections was getting out of hand (traffic lights as well as streetlights were all out and rules of aggressive driving were getting a little extreme.)
However - I did drive Checkers prior to that. I worked for Helen Maintenance in '75 and my first cab ever was a Checker. The customers loved 'em!
In 1965 I in the D train station at Church & McDonald. The lights went down, then out, then came on again. That part of Brooklyn never lost power in that first famous blackout.
You'd have to pass through too many really bad neighborhoods to make this trip safely today.
However, I remember exactly where I was for the '65 blackout that covered the whole East Coast. I was in class at Hebrew School at the East Meadow Jewish Center and when the lights started flickering and then went completely out everybody in the class started making jokes about how the shul didn't pay their electric bills! They let us out early and my father found the one diner in the area with generators which was so crowded we waited over an hour for a table.
My grandmother lived in the Warbasse Buildings (she lived in the white building right next to the Van Siklen/Neptune Station) and they supplied their own power with their own generators so she had power during both blackouts.
Radio Coverage of the 1977 Blackout
--Mark
Better that you were alone on the elevator than in there with someone who was in a state of panic.
BIG TIME! New York City of 1965, was VERY different from NYC of 1977. The city was a dangerous place in the late 70's. The blackout of 65' was very peacefull, people singing and playing songs on the stoops in Greenwich village etc... The blackout of 77' got violent. It was just the mood of the city at the time...
A combination of both.
Hee hee. I sure remember that night! Weird juxtaposition of events; my first, uh, exposure to the female form au natural, right before the action was getting hot. On the moon. I was so torn...
:-) Andrew
wayne
They had computers in 1977? :)
Remember 8" floppy disks?
Mark
Mark
See, this is on-topic! : )
Mark
That's very, er, creative ...
I bicycled into work the next day. It took about an hour door to door, Flushing to Times Square - about the same time it would have taken had the trains been running. I did have to carry my bike up 8 flights of stairs to my office.
The computer facility did have backup power. However, we had only 8 hours worth of diesel fuel. We managed to complete the previous night's work and shut down.
We started up again at 8 am and started a desparate search to try to get an emergency shipment of diesel fuel to keep our computers going throughout the day. We were not successful and had to close up shop around 11 am.
We were not alone in not being able to keep our comuters running because Con Ed was not able to restore power within the 8 hours of emergency fuel backup. One result was to greatly increase the size of our fuel tanks. I'd assume that the design for 7 WTC came pretty soon after this experience. It was the burning of the fuel tanks AND THEIR PLACEMENT that caused that building to collapse on 9/11. There may not have been so much fuel had Con Ed been able to restore power more promptly.
Nine... eleven.
I was on the #7 train under the East River. We were on the upgrade when the power failed. The T/O let the train keep rolling until just the first car reached Vernon-Jackson. In short order he opened the crew door and we all got out. I walked home to Sunnyside & cooked supper on the gas stove. The was six of us living in a three bedroom apartment (lower two floors of a two family house). It took a while for everyone to get home.
Now I live in one of the towns on L.I. that has it's own power station. The lights didn't go out in those towns because they disconnected themselves form the grid (that's the mistake made in NYC, they could have pushed the switches to disconnect, but they waited for authorization until it was too late).
--Mark
Hmm... doubt you'd see that kind of behavior today.
And to answer the Q, not even conceived yet.
New Station House Work at Marcy Avenue
A Man Waits for his train at Woodside L.I.R.R
The View of an R-142 from the Floor
Gates Avenue
Beach 90th Station
One of the Two Rockaway Bridges
36 Street
Glass Stained Window
Beach 116 Street Station
New Building Appearing at Sunnyside Yard-- Phase 1?
Signal at Beach 116 Street Terminal
For Those Who Thought My Photos Were Trash
Enjoy!
Keep rolling the sabor, hermano!!
I don't think he's going to find any of that one. ;-)
(I took this on September 2, 2001. Yes, September 2.)
The same reason some traffic lights are horizontal while others are vertical.
What do you think? Kind of gives it a haunting feel, in my opinion.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks! I only thought of it at the last minute, and it was on the R1-9 trip, so I can't repeat it with dark doors again. If I try it again though, I will be more prepared, and not have Forest Ave's canopy in the way of the top of St Matthias' steeple (maybe bend down a little). Of course the dark door and dim bulbs of the old train helped with the effect. I'll have to settle for florescent and silver next time.
And my personal favorite:
So what about the 190+ R38 cars? They will be 44 years old then.
Now picture an Arnine and a LoV CONNECTED in perfect harmony ... A division, B division, cats and dogs LIVING together. A REGULAR event at Branford. That's where I had in mind 32's, 40's and newer junkers running ... because they CAN! :)
David
Perhaps the Redbirds can be pulled off the 7, but then the 58 reserve R-33ML's will have to reenter service. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)
David
David
David
David
It seems like there's an easy way to check. How many R-142's are not yet in service (whether delivered or not)? How many Redbirds are still in service?
I don't have a recent number on deliveries and active Redbirds. Last I heard (about a month ago, I guess), the Flushing Line was about half-and-half, Redbirds vs. R-62As, meaning that somewhere around 200 Redbirds (allowing for spares) were still in service.
David
The R-142 and R-142A orders, as finally configured (not as initially configured), included enough cars to replace every Redbird (there were 1,401 Redbirds in service when the orders were placed) plus increase the fleet by 150 cars to add service. Now NYCT is buying 80 more cars (R-142S), with the idea of adding even more service.
And, by the way, spare ratios can be manipulated somewhat to reduce fleet size without reducing service -- not that that's been done.
David
Changing the subject, do you know which lines have received more scheduled service since the R-142's started arriving, and which will be the beneficiaries of the R-142S order?
David
I can also say that there's more 1/9 service now than there was before 9/11/01 (and, more importantly, much better handling of problems).
Is that it? Any schedule improvements on the 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7?
I read the article about the plans for November. IIRC, they were restricted to the East Side lines. Is that correct?
Sounds right to me.
David
-AcelaExpress2005 - R160
3 Train R62A - #2000
3 Train R62A - #2001
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Where have you been? the 5 has had R142's for a year and a half now and a Redbird free fleet since April.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
During the am rush, the last four "5"s from Dyre Ave. (8:45-9:13) terminate at either Utica or New Lots. During the pm rush hours, ALL "5"s from Dyre Ave AFTER 6:52 (6:52-7:43) terminate at either Utica or New Lots.
During the pm rush hours, MOST "5"s to Nereid Ave begin at either Utica or New Lots. In fact, there are only TWO Nereid Ave "5"s leaving Flatbush Ave.-4:10pm and 5:52pm.-that's it. The rest of the Nereid Ave. "5"s begin at Utica/New Lots with about 3 of them beginning at Bowling Green.
During the am rush, there is also a few of them that begin from Utica/New Lots.
Now I say Utica/New Lots because on the schedule these "5"s just end or appear at the Franklin Ave column but nothing at the Flatbush column.
So as you can see, there are quite a few "5"s going to/from Utica/New Lots.
Good luck!
It was stopped in part due to severe abuses by various members of TA staff. In cases where the cards were sold at the station booth a few Station Agents were keeping some for themselves instead of selling them when a customer wanted a new card. When it came to the MVM's, boxes of the cards would never make it to the MVM's. They would instead go to either the people whose job it was to fill the machines or to unscrupulous individuals who paid them to misroute the cards.
I am sure that the advertisers who paid to have these cards printed were not happy and probably dropped the idea of using the MetroCard as advertising. But it is coming back slowly. The latest one is from Chase Bank.
In the meantime the MTA has been doing the "Safety Card" theme on the cards.
As far as a club goes, it was tried and there were even some MetroCard shows but the idea died out over a year or so. There was a situation here where I saw an individual at one of these shows who had a whole box of MetroCards that had not even been released to the public yet.
Another example - when the Yankees won the 2000 World Series, the MetroCards were on ebay before they were in the machines. To make matters worse, the MTA withdrew the cards before release because there was a dispute with Major League Baseball over copyright issues.
Your best bet is to post here from time to time. There are a handful of collectors here (note that most lile to trade rather than sell). You can go the ebay route but expect to pay $$$$$.
Robert
BTW, there is also a Chase bank MC out there.
Robert
til next time
City Derails Dream of Red Hook Trolley
By MATTHEW SWEENEY Staff Reporter of the Sun
New York City has ordered Brooklyn¡¯s Don Quixote of trolleys to pick up his trains and go home.
Robert Diamond, founder of the Brooklyn Historic Railway Association, has labored with federal and city support for the last 10 years on the Red Hook waterfront to build the city¡¯s first trolley line since 1960.
But the city has ordered Mr. Diamond to deliver a plan for pulling his tracks out of city streets where he was no longer welcome.
¡°It looks like it¡¯s pretty much over with,¡± said Tom Cocola, a spokesman for the city Department of Transportation.
Mr. Diamond, who was to provide his plan over the weekend, said yesterday he would instead file suit against the city in the hopes of saving the trolley line, which he envisioned would run 1.6 miles from the rough-and-tumble neighborhood, which has virtually no subway service, to the Borough Hall station in Downtown Brooklyn.
¡°We¡¯ll let the courts decide if it¡¯s the end of the line,¡± Mr. Diamond said.
The DOT order to shut down ends a financial dispute between Mr. Diamond and the agency that goes back nearly two years.
With DOT sponsorship, Mr. Diamond obtained about $300,000 in federal and city grants in the late 1990s. The DOT also gave Mr. Diamond permission to lay tracks from a waterfront pier, where he stored his trolleys, onto a two-block stretch of Brooklyn on Conover and Reed streets.
¡°We always were under the impression that some of the costs would be absorbed by him,¡± Mr. Cocola said.
Mr. Diamond dug up those two blocks and laid rail, but work proceeded slowly over the last decade, with just a handful of demonstration runs.
¡°We were making progress,¡± Mr. Diamond said. ¡°We were inching along.¡±
Mr. Diamond failed to come up with funding and argued instead that the tens of thousands of hours of labor on the project should count toward his end.
Not satisfied, the DOT withdrew its sponsorship for Mr. Diamond¡¯s grant requests last year.
Mr. Diamond said that without the city¡¯s support, he was stuck.
The relationship deteriorated this year. Over a three-day period at the end of May, the DOT hauled away several tons of railroad ties, steel rails and other equipment as Mr. Diamond looked on. The agency said it owned the equipment because Mr. Diamond bought it with taxpayer money.
Mr. Diamond, in turn, filed a police report accusing the city of grand larceny, claiming that $616,000 of the seized equipment was bought with his own money or privately raised funds.
¡°We¡¯re disappointed with the way things are turning,¡± Mr. Cocola said.
It¡¯s not just the city that wants Mr.Diamond to pack up his operation.A local developer, Greg O¡¯Connell, has taken legal steps seeking to remove Mr. Diamond from a nearby lot, where Mr. O¡¯Connell is trying to bring in a Fairway supermarket.
Mr.O¡¯Connell,who supported Mr.Diamond early on by letting him store cars and equipment on his property, said he will continue to give Mr. Diamond a place for storage on a nearby pier, but needs the land back.
If not a trolley line, maybe Mr. Diamond could open a trolley museum, he said.
¡°I¡¯d like to keep it alive in some way or another,¡± he said.
Adding to Mr. Diamond¡¯s misery, two former associates have created their own group, the Brooklyn City Streetcar Company.They have been stumping for their plan to build a trolley line in the borough connecting a planned waterfront park with Downtown Brooklyn.
If his legal action does not save the trolley line, Mr. Diamond said he would sell the collection of cars. He stores 12 of the trolley cars at the Brooklyn Navy Yard, where his lease expired last year.
The minute those sunguns go dark and the camera's put away in its case, and the sticks are taken down and the crew heads for the truck, the soundbite's over and the politicos get to play again. I've heard from folks that think Bob's a nutcase, others who have pointed the fingers elsewhere, and with good reason and as a former journalist myself, THIS is a story I would have bit into even if I DIDN'T like trains and trolleys. To all but our Shrub, it's OBVIOUS that there's a nice 60 minute show to be told here. Especially after "banZAI" last night on Fozz.
May not be 60 Minutes, but "if it's another day, MUST be another DateLine MSNBC" should EASILY kill a show with the goings-on here. Who knows? Maybe Geraldo can do a special where he finds a 1934 nickel under one of the seats in a PCC. :)
Perhaps it *IS* their fault ... I have *YET* to meet a politician after 50 years (remember JONATHAN B BINGHAM? I worked for him as a child) ... that doesn't phuck the one who gave them LESS money than the OTHER economic opponent. Grow up and LEARN how politics works. The PETA mentality of "public servant" is like feeding white mice to boas compared to who politicians can phuck.
Nope, the way things are going lately, MOGADISHU is a good example of government with what we've got in power these days ... at least they'd be putting holes in each OTHER than us. :(
Pardon my flippance, but after the shafting ****I**** got lately, the only GOOD politician is one that's been stuffed and mounted (and not necessarily in that order) so their frigging ilps won't MOVE anymore. :(
And to politicos, stay away from Voorheesville and our brand new "nobody WANTED this DAMNED THING" traffic circle, and we won't come looking for *YOU* ... stay the phuck OUT of our town. We can pump our OWN water (and do), plow our own roads (costs ME over $2500 a year since the village, town state WON'T and THEY NAMED the damned thing)) ... oh, I could go on and on about how USELESS government is but I won't ... next paychecks this year oughta do THAT. :(
There is very little objectivity in journalism. Hense the tabloid crap news in the daily news, post cahnnel 2,4,5,7,9,11. Chanal 11 being the most objective of the bunch.
I got OUT of journalism when the lies of the LA TIMES, Washington "Times" and such established. Sun Myung MOON is not my idea of political LEADERSHIP for the USA ... RUPERT'S *MUCH* better and owned by the same. Worst we had prior was the NY TIMES. Bottom line, JOURNALISM, The (as Fred Friendly put it in school) ... "The reporter is a PAID WITNESS ... the "5 W's" apply in EVERY assignment. (no trains involved, sorry) ...
BOTTOM LINE though is there;s NEWS and there's FLUFF. Foaming is NOT news. ESPECIALLY when it's "rip and paste" like AP ... :(
Chaohwa
Arti
Arti
Arti
Arti
Arti
Well, they're both pretty ugly... but then again that could be said about quite a few of us :-)
In a word, no.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
--Mark
Paul
I see you guys have been misbehaving while I was away...boy, I can't turn my head away for a second without somebody busting my nads? ;)
Sheesh, that some strong words there don't ya think 8-).
Obviously, the trolley maven of Brooklyn and I are NOT related. Anyone who knows me will tell you that I am a rapid transit aficianado with just a smidgen of trolley-blood in my veins. Bob on the other hand is a diehard overhead wire buff.
I'm disappointed that the trolley didn't happen, but it is possible Diamond had a shot at it and it just didn't work out.
I don't know enough, obviously, to be able to offer any kind of opinion as to his lawsuit (what was in the agreement's fine print?).
Thanks for posting that story.
No, I don't think that's right.
Bob was supose to come up with some matching equity (money, supplies, work). He did obtain a lot of material on his own for next to nothing, and over the period in question & lot of sweat occured.
I think the main problem is that the City just changed their mind on their plans for that area. Bob & his trolleys are now in the way. He may have done or not done some things that didn't help his cause, but mainly I feel it's the City's fault.
"I think the main problem is that the City just changed their mind on their plans for that area. Bob & his trolleys are now in the way. He may have done or not done some things that didn't help his cause, but mainly I feel it's the City's fault."
Thurston, I think that you're oversimplifying things. I doubt that NYCDOT has nothing better to do than to harass bob. More likely, from the City's point of view, it would be easier to have the trolley project proceed so that Iris and Chuck could have a photo op at the ribbon cutting ceremony. The fact that NYCDOT is evicting bob indicates that there was some hitherto undisclosed problem that could not be resolved. It is possible that BHRA did not live up to all of its obligations. Did the agreement allow for "sweat equity" to be used as the local match? I'm not sure.
It's easy to blame the City/DOT for this. It's natural for railfans to feel put-upon by the car-centric DOT, but we are not privy to all of the behind the scenes discussions that took place. Now that there's a court case pending, the details will come to light and both the BHRA and NYCDOT positions should become clear. Until then, let's refrain from simplifying this to "City Bad, bob good".
We'll see what happens in court. Hopefully, people will post the proceeedings.
"I think you are a shill for the NYCDOT. Definitely no friend of rail."
Considering some of your past posting, your solely deciding who is or isn't a friend of rail is pretty laughable.
Now, I may not take everything that a politician (or spokesperson for the City) says as factual or accurat, but I won't as far as our friend Selkirk has recently. But, by the same token I won't trash him for his position either.
I've been to Bob's waterfront site and wished him well, not recently though. His plan/goal seemed to make since for the City as well as railfans. No one person/group is at fault here, but I feel I know who put that last straw on the camel's back.
More like the OWNER of the property where Diamond had his operation changed HIS mind and decided that a giant supermarket was more profitable than a trolley line...
I am sorry it didn't work out.
The minute those sunguns go dark and the camera's put away in its case, and the sticks are taken down and the crew heads for the truck, the soundbite's over and the politicos get to play again. I've heard from folks that think Bob's a nutcase, others who have pointed the fingers elsewhere, and with good reason and as a former journalist myself, THIS is a story I would have bit into even if I DIDN'T like trains and trolleys. To all but our Shrub, it's OBVIOUS that there's a nice 60 minute show to be told here. Especially after "banZAI" last night on Fozz.
May not be 60 Minutes, but "if it's another day, MUST be another DateLine MSNBC" should EASILY kill a show with the goings-on here. Who knows? Maybe Geraldo can do a special where he finds a 1934 nickel under one of the seats in a PCC. :)
Perhaps it *IS* their fault ... I have *YET* to meet a politician after 50 years (remember JONATHAN B BINGHAM? I worked for him as a child) ... that doesn't phuck the one who gave them LESS money than the OTHER economic opponent. Grow up and LEARN how politics works. The PETA mentality of "public servant" is like feeding white mice to boas compared to who politicians can phuck.
Nope, the way things are going lately, MOGADISHU is a good example of government with what we've got in power these days ... at least they'd be putting holes in each OTHER than us. :(
Pardon my flippance, but after the shafting ****I**** got lately, the only GOOD politician is one that's been stuffed and mounted (and not necessarily in that order) so their frigging ilps won't MOVE anymore. :(
And to politicos, stay away from Voorheesville and our brand new "nobody WANTED this DAMNED THING" traffic circle, and we won't come looking for *YOU* ... stay the phuck OUT of our town. We can pump our OWN water (and do), plow our own roads (costs ME over $2500 a year since the village, town state WON'T and THEY NAMED the damned thing)) ... oh, I could go on and on about how USELESS government is but I won't ... next paychecks this year oughta do THAT. :(
There is very little objectivity in journalism. Hense the tabloid crap news in the daily news, post cahnnel 2,4,5,7,9,11. Chanal 11 being the most objective of the bunch.
I got OUT of journalism when the lies of the LA TIMES, Washington "Times" and such established. Sun Myung MOON is not my idea of political LEADERSHIP for the USA ... RUPERT'S *MUCH* better and owned by the same. Worst we had prior was the NY TIMES. Bottom line, JOURNALISM, The (as Fred Friendly put it in school) ... "The reporter is a PAID WITNESS ... the "5 W's" apply in EVERY assignment. (no trains involved, sorry) ...
BOTTOM LINE though is there;s NEWS and there's FLUFF. Foaming is NOT news. ESPECIALLY when it's "rip and paste" like AP ... :(
The front and rear was signed as A.
At the end of the 4th car or the beginning of the 5th car, there was a yellow S signed. There's a S in yellow circle on the rollsigns??
IIRC that shuttle was in use as recently as July 4, 2001.
Also some shuttle routes use the "Shuttle" designation as opposed to the colored "S" bullet.
The Grand St shuttle is a good place to see all the different "esses," friends of mine have claimed to have seen the 4 car R46 use a Orange S, Yellow S, and Gray S
Who the hell decided the order in which to put those signs? They need to go back to kindergarten and learn the alphabet.
JFK Express
(A) Wash Hts/8 Av/Fulton
(C) 8 Av/Fulton
Concourse/8 Av/Fulton
(E) Queens Blvd/8 Avenue
(H) Rockaway Shuttle
(F) 6 Avenue/Culver
(F) Queens Blvd/6 Av/Culver
(G) Queens Blvd Crosstown
(R) Queens Blvd/Bway/4 Av
(R) Bway/4 Av
(R) 4 Av(?)
(S) 63 St Shuttle
(Q) 6 Avenue/Brighton
(Q) Broadway/Brighton
(D) Concourse/6 Av/Brighton
(D) [something else I don't remember]
(B) 6 Avenue/West End (?)
(B) West End Shuttle
Wash Hts/6 Av/West End
(D) Broadway/Brighton
(B) Broadway/4 Av/West End
Astoria/Bway/4 Av(?)/West End
(M) Myrtle Av/Nassau St(?)
(M) Myrtle Av Shuttle
Myrtle Av/West End
(L) 14 St-Canarsie
(S) Franklin Av Shuttle
(J) Jamaica/Nassau St
Jamaica/Nassau/Brighton
(Z)
Where is Not In Service????
I'm sure you wanted to do this:
JFK Express
And I also have seen this on rolls:
(C)8 Avenue Local
(N)Astoria/Sea Beach
(K)8 Av/Wash Hts
For the turquoise blue color, (font color=turquoise). I wonder how much the R32 rollsigns will cost when they are retired, I will make sure I get one of those, especially the older ones [makes me wish I had a Redbird rollsign :-(].
Jimmy
(K) 8th Ave. Local
The rollsigns which would have said "8th Ave/Wash Hts." appeared after the K was eliminated.
When he said that I was like,holy shit!!
That is correct, I own an R-32 sign box.
Peace,
ANDEE
http://www.dougf.com/media/sub1a.gif
Southern part:
http://www.dougf.com/media/sub2a.gif
The Brooklyn-Queens borough line runs N-S down the center of Eldert La. (formerly known as Elderts La.) between Jamaica and Atlantic Aves. Consequently, numbered Queens avenues become known by Brooklyn names as they cross the line going westward; such as 91st Ave. turning into Fulton St., and 90th Ave. turning into Ridgweood Ave.
One avenue which does not cross Eldert(s) La. is 88th Ave.; it ends/begins there. However, there is a signpost on the western side (the Brooklyn side) of Eldert(s) that displays signs for both Eldert La. and 88th Ave.
So, my question is this: what kind of signs were hanging on that signpost when each borough had its own colors?
Was there a Brooklyn sign, with white lettering on a black background, announcing 88th Ave., a street which does not exist in Brooklyn?
Or, was there a Queens sign, with blue lettering on a white background, standing in Brooklyn?
Ferdinand Cesarano
As far as color, It doesn't really matter what color are the signs as long as the signs are otherwise correct. Maybe when signs were needed to be posted, there were no Queens signs available so they used 2 Brooklyn signs instead. It would be different 105 years ago when Eldert's Lane was the boundry between the City of Brooklyn and the town of Woodhaven. But it's all now one city.
I agree that that is the reason.
As far as color, It doesn't really matter what color are the signs as long as the signs are otherwise correct.
Really? Who says it doesn't matter? It matters to me; that is why I asked.
Maybe when signs were needed to be posted, there were no Queens signs available so they used 2 Brooklyn signs instead.
"No Queens signs available"? Doubtful. They marked it one way or the other -- but surely not due the "unavailablity" of either kind of sign.
It would be different 105 years ago when Eldert's Lane was the boundry between the City of Brooklyn and the town of Woodhaven. But it's all now one city.
Well, yes, I celebrate the fact that we are all one city now. Of course, that is completely irrelvant to my question.
During the 60s and 70s, the boroughs had separate streetsign styles, a system which lasted well into the 80s. (And, as Kevin Walsh has pointed out, a few old signs still remain.) I am curious as to which style (Brooklyn's or Queens's) stood on the Brooklyn side of Eldert(s) La. at 88th Ave. during that period.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I remember the blue-on-white signs in Woodhaven until 1989ish. One still exists on 89th St. as it intersects with 86th Ave.
I remember the blue-on-white signs in Woodhaven until 1989ish. One still exists on 89th St. as it intersects with 86th Ave.
Well, assuming that you meant 86th Road (which is the only "86" that intersects 89th St.), it isn't there anymore. I went past there just tonight to see.
I live in Woodhaven, but I wasn't aware of that old "whitey" on 89th St. I did know, however, of another one around here that disappeared only recently. Up until about two years or so ago, there was a set of "whiteys" at Jamaica Ave. and 88th St.
On the other hand, I'm happy to report that, as of last Saturday, the "whitey" at Highland Blvd. and Vermont Pl., within Highland Park on the Brooklyn/Queens border, is still standing.
Ferdinand Cesarano
An interesting case for many years was the Fulton Street/Eldert Lane boundary. Fulton becomes 91st Avenue at that point but the DOT had white/blue Queens signs on the Brooklyn side, a mistake. So it was the only white/blue Fulton Street sign in the city.
Of course the signs were changed to green/white in the early to mid 1980s, long before the advent of...
www.forgotten-ny.com
So, Kevin, you are saying that there probably would have been a black Brooklyn sign saying "88th Ave.", a street which does not exist in Brooklyn? That would have been wild to see!
An interesting case for many years was the Fulton Street/Eldert Lane boundary. Fulton becomes 91st Avenue at that point but the DOT had white/blue Queens signs on the Brooklyn side, a mistake. So it was the only white/blue Fulton Street sign in the city.
Wow! In one sense, this would be the reciprocal case -- a white Queens sign saying the name of a street that doesn't exist in Queens. But, in another sense it was unique, since it was a sign with the wrong colors for the borough it was standing in. I hope someone out there has a picture!
I used to think that a sign mix-up was happening at the City border with Nassau County. I remember noticing that, at the point where the City line runs down the center of Jamaica Ave. (or, as the suburbanites call it, "Jericho Tpke."), there are a few numbered streets extending south of Jamaica/Jericho, showing their numbers on signage from whatever Nassau location that happens to be (Elmont? Floral Park?). I used to think that this was a mistake, until I realized that, even in Nassau, those streets' names are the numbers.
Anyway, I am real nostalgic for those borough color-coded signs. They had character. It is too bad that they had to be changed to comply with a rule on reflectivity. That just seems so odd -- those signs were light-reflecting, weren't they?
Ferdinand Cesarano
The street signs that I am particularly nostalgicc for are the ones with the raised white lettering on a black background. I would love to find one for St. Marks' Avenue.
Is it your hobby going around posting about things which you know NOTHING about as if it was truth?
It was the Town of Jamaica.
Anybody else have some suggestions for fun things to do with Windows XP Windows Classic Theme Configuration?
Chaohwa
Arti
Arti
Arti
Arti
Arti
Well, they're both pretty ugly... but then again that could be said about quite a few of us :-)
In a word, no.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
--Mark
Paul
I see you guys have been misbehaving while I was away...boy, I can't turn my head away for a second without somebody busting my nads? ;)
Sheesh, that some strong words there don't ya think 8-).
Obviously, the trolley maven of Brooklyn and I are NOT related. Anyone who knows me will tell you that I am a rapid transit aficianado with just a smidgen of trolley-blood in my veins. Bob on the other hand is a diehard overhead wire buff.
I'm disappointed that the trolley didn't happen, but it is possible Diamond had a shot at it and it just didn't work out.
I don't know enough, obviously, to be able to offer any kind of opinion as to his lawsuit (what was in the agreement's fine print?).
Thanks for posting that story.
No, I don't think that's right.
Bob was supose to come up with some matching equity (money, supplies, work). He did obtain a lot of material on his own for next to nothing, and over the period in question & lot of sweat occured.
I think the main problem is that the City just changed their mind on their plans for that area. Bob & his trolleys are now in the way. He may have done or not done some things that didn't help his cause, but mainly I feel it's the City's fault.
"I think the main problem is that the City just changed their mind on their plans for that area. Bob & his trolleys are now in the way. He may have done or not done some things that didn't help his cause, but mainly I feel it's the City's fault."
Thurston, I think that you're oversimplifying things. I doubt that NYCDOT has nothing better to do than to harass bob. More likely, from the City's point of view, it would be easier to have the trolley project proceed so that Iris and Chuck could have a photo op at the ribbon cutting ceremony. The fact that NYCDOT is evicting bob indicates that there was some hitherto undisclosed problem that could not be resolved. It is possible that BHRA did not live up to all of its obligations. Did the agreement allow for "sweat equity" to be used as the local match? I'm not sure.
It's easy to blame the City/DOT for this. It's natural for railfans to feel put-upon by the car-centric DOT, but we are not privy to all of the behind the scenes discussions that took place. Now that there's a court case pending, the details will come to light and both the BHRA and NYCDOT positions should become clear. Until then, let's refrain from simplifying this to "City Bad, bob good".
We'll see what happens in court. Hopefully, people will post the proceeedings.
"I think you are a shill for the NYCDOT. Definitely no friend of rail."
Considering some of your past posting, your solely deciding who is or isn't a friend of rail is pretty laughable.
Now, I may not take everything that a politician (or spokesperson for the City) says as factual or accurat, but I won't as far as our friend Selkirk has recently. But, by the same token I won't trash him for his position either.
I've been to Bob's waterfront site and wished him well, not recently though. His plan/goal seemed to make since for the City as well as railfans. No one person/group is at fault here, but I feel I know who put that last straw on the camel's back.
More like the OWNER of the property where Diamond had his operation changed HIS mind and decided that a giant supermarket was more profitable than a trolley line...
I am sorry it didn't work out.
This is an imperfect list. If anyone can add to or subtract from it please let me know.
April, 1953 - all bridge service suspended due to a broken chord.
May 25, 1982 (330PM)-5./29/82 (afternoon) cracked beam, north tracks closed.
July 12-16 and 19-23 weekdays 10AM-2PM north tracks o/s
August 8 - September 25, 1983 south tracks o/s
September 26-November 13, 1983 north tracks o/s
March 10, 1984 for two weeks north tracks o/s
August 10, 1985 north tracks o/s for three months
April 27, 1986 - December 3, 1988 north tracks o/s
December 11, 1988 - September 30, 1990 south tracks o/s
December 27, 1990 - July 21, 2001, (11 years) south tracks o/s
December 27 - March 11, 1991 on most weekends north tracks o/s
July 29, 2002- present (7/14/03) north tracks o/s
There were of course many weekends where tracks were out of service and coverd only by a general order.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Best Wishes, Larry, Redbirdr33
Regards,
Frankie Nicholas-Alexander Perez
BTW, excellent platform announcements about this prior to the train's arrival.
So there must of been a service disruption since the W ran express today.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Oh, you mean a "shoe slipper".
Jimmy ;)
- I began the day on the 6:05 A train out of Lefferts, which left at 6:18 with no apparent explanation. Not only was it 13 minutes late, but the guys at Jay St. had the b@lls to hold us there for a "schedule adjustment". Were we not late enough?
- I've HAD it with the volume of the R142 automated announcements. They MUST be lowered. You can't listen to a Walkman or hold a quiet conversation.
- I was on a southbound #4 (in the new #1575!)north of 59th and was delayed for 15 minutes for another mysterious reason. When we got to 59th a passanger got on saying a train dragged a passanger. Is that true? (time aaprox. 1:45 PM).
- Summer day camps should not be given free passes for their children unless they provide enough adults (teenagers are not adults) to keep them well behaved. Unruly day-campers ran over some unfortunate elderly woman on an F train without the slightest hint of discipline.
- Saw 3 consecutive R40M N trains this afternoon, one including the R42 mismatched pair.
- Why does N/R service bunch up so consistently? All day long it's the same story. Downtown, you wait 9 minutes for a jam-packed R train, then have a trailing N train, virtually empty, come in right behind it. Uptown, it's the same thing, only the opposite routes (crowded N, empty R). It's been like this for YEARS!!!
- Saw an R42 L train this afternoon rush. I thought their days won the Canarsie line were over.
- I was on the 15:39 (M)ary out of Bay Parkway. Everything was running smoothly until we got to Pacific. Kids were "surfing" outside the rear car, causing some panicked passanger to pull the emergency brake. The conductor tried in vain to radio the tower to inform them of the problem. Apparently both the tower's and T/O's radio didn't seem to work properly. Neither side could undertand the other and it took 6 attempts by the conductor, the final time shouting into her radio before the tower finally acknowledged and understood what she was trying to say. After charging back up, it was the slow crawl to Dekalb Ave, where we were held again. Apparently a train died at Rector St, rerouting all N/R trains over the bridge. The N/R trains in front of us were being turned around north of Lawrence St, which slowed EVERYTHING to a crawl. It took 22 minutes to get from Pacific St to Broad St!
Otherwise, it was a fun day. I just can't wait for Stillwell Ave to reopen. X-ferring between the N, F, Q and W trains by foot can be exhausting.
I agree fully.
Tho I reckon think the reason for their HIGH volume can be so
sleepy or touristy people wont MISS their stop....
This seems to happen a lot when the BMT has a problem. Last Monday, it took me nearly one hour to get between 57th/7th and Pacific because of a stalled train on the Manny B (which was actually explained to us as signal trouble). Later that same evening, a work train was disabled in the vicinity of 57th/7th, again slowing the entire BMT Broadway line to a crawl, and the W train I was on was turned back at Times Square.
--Mark
Best:
5: 5th Ave/60th St. Colorful, historically accurate mosaics, cute polar bear cutouts.
4: Herald Sq: 13 years later, it still looks great.
3: Union Sq: Simplified infrastructure, tasteful design.
2: Tie 8th St/28th St-Broadway. Beautiful tile work. Both are masterpieces, colorful exceptions in to a normally bland design.
1: 81st/MONH. The upper level is stunning. I actually got off of the train to view the entire station. I'm sorry I didn't bring a camera.
OK, enough of me being a nice guy. Here's my worst:
5: 7th Ave/53rd St. Dark, bland.
4: 161st St/River Ave (IND). Took years to do and that's the best they can come up with?
3: 14th St/8th Ave: Boring, bland, pedantic, dull.
2: Pacific St. Bleech, boring and incomplete. Never did do the mezzanine.
1: Union St/4th Ave. Any rehab of a 4th Ave/Broadway BMT local station which retains the 1970's refridgerator tile is a monumental waste of time, effort and money.
Let me guess, you haven't been there in a while, right?
The old station had filthy round ceilings covered with dirt, and smelly.
The irony is that the refurbished station is just as dirty and smelly.
The refurbished station has brass station sign plates,
Certainly not. I've been waiting for 7's there so many times already. Those sign plates are certainly not brass. I'd imagine they're cheap stainless steel.
clean walls,
Hardly. The MTA painted the walls this pathetic dark gray color. No tiling, no decoration, no nothing. They put no effort on the walls, not to mention much of the walls are now suffering from water damage.
a ADA-acessible elevator,
Which hardly works. Other posters can attest to that. Not one day passes when I see those brightly painted yellow construction pantographs...
and clean ceilings.
I guess I can give you that.
But we are talking stations that are rehabbed, so Chambers and your Sea Beach stations don't count.
If anything, it should be Disliked. The renovated station is full of dirt, its tacky and CPCTC basically pointed everything out so I won't be redundant. Also, I see you like duct tape on the platform floor by the yellow tiles; along with 5 Av [sarcasm].
:-0! It could be a rreal jewel in the subway system but lets be honest, its an eyesore and it would be "good" in the 1970's ;-).
Disagree:
161st Street: It was a typical dull, boring, depressing IND station to begin with. They did preserve the IND feel, and livened it up. I kind of like it.
14th/8th: Another station I kind of like. Again, it was a typical, dull, boring, depressing IND express station. It's very crisp and clean looking. I can't explain it, I just like it. I'm glad they did keep it with an IND feel, I wouldn't have wanted them to "BMTize" it like they did on 8th Ave-L (which by the way I love, but it belongs down there, and now matches the other stations on the line).
Now here's my list of the good, the bad, and the ugly:
Best:
1. 33rd Steet/Lex Line: Truly beautifully done, preserving the great features of the original station, and completing a spectacular renovation
2. Union Square: (see above-all three in complex preserved to original splendor)
3. 81st Street: (see above)
4. 36th Street/4th Ave
5. Most of the renovated Broadway stations (they were a jewel to begin with, and finally have returned)
Honorable mentions: Fulton, Broad, 8th (L), 18th Street (1/9)
The WOrst renovations:
1. Grand Central (7): What the hell is that supposed to be?
2. 23rd St/Lex Line: I know it was done in the late 80's, but what the hell is that ugly orange tile? Can we destroy any more from a historic 1904 station?
3. 137th Street/Broadway: What were they thinking in the late 80's? They actually covered the original pink mosaics and thought that was a good idea?!?!
4. Wall Street 4/5: Okay they preserved the mosaics (one of the first renovations to do so), but can we please get rid of that ugly blue brick?
5. Hoyt: ANother historic station lost under 80's brick.
Honorable mention:
Canal Street BMT local station - This is here, but not because I hate the renovation. I like the new tile they put up. However, they lost their chance to restore the original 1920's mosaics on this one. It had beautiful picture mosaics of the Canal (similar to Union Square), and now they are under two layers of tile (the 70's cement block tile, and now the new tile). I think it's a beautiful renovation, but I hate the fact that they didn't resore the original mosaics.
This is original?
BEST
28th St-Broadway: That artwork sure is cute and interesting to look at
34th St/Broadway/6th Ave: Well kept station, the chimes on the BMT platforms still work.
72nd st/Broadway: Love the new and old headhouses, but would it be nice to restore the interior to it's original splendor on the old one?
Tie; Botanic Garden, Park Place and Franklin Ave: Small but nice warm stations to be in, well lit compared to it's predecessors. Nice control houses at Franklin and Park Place
Astor Place: A worthy NYCT treasure, a replica of an original kiosk entrance on the Uptown side, original paint and signs on both entrances, restoration of the beaver. Only the K-Mart store entrance on S/B side kills what the station was originally intended for.
WORST STATIONS:
3rd Ave/East 149th st: Nowhere in any part of the station does it have any artwork or picture of the 3rd Ave El. That makes it the top of ANY worst station list when you diss the 3rd Ave el.
Grand Central/Flushing platform. Excessive lighting, poor structural work, ugly drabby looking station, LED indicators have wrong information.
7th Ave/53rd St.- Homeless people live in this station, you can understand why, poor wall tiling, dirty floor tiles, you name it.
59th st/Lexington Ave: Narrow staircases (especially on the BMT platform), difficult navgation, limited IRT access at south side, and no elevators make this one tough station to use during rush hour.
BeverLEY and Cortelyou Roads: Sorry I know this is supposed to be the best subway (it still is), but peeling paint, ceiling leakage, narrow stairs, and limited seats on platforms make the station look more ugly than it is. The control houses have bad water seepage on the edge of the stairs and on the stairs themselves. Worst area is north end of BeverLEY road, both platforms.
BEST
1. 81 St/Museum of Natural History -> one of the best renovations ever done
2. 116 St on the 2/3 -> Well done, real bright now! Just 10 years ago it was a straight up eyesore
3. Union Square (Broadway)-> A nice job there, on the whole complex to be honest & has soome nice artifacts
4. Canal St (Broadway) -> They really turned this station around and the moasics are nice on the N/R platform
5. Main St/Flushing -> Real nice
Worst
1. Grand Central -> Very tacky in my view, especially on the 7 sheesh what were they thinking :-\
2. Pacific St -> Just plain & bland
3. Beverley/Cortelyou (Q) -> After JUST 8 years, its falling apart cracks on the floor & is exhausted :-(
4. 7 Av/53 St -> Full of leaks and stains on the floor, bland
5. Tremont Av (D) -> This speaks for itself
Best (1) I have to agree. They put time and effort into it, and wanted to make sure the kids have something to enjoy as they go into and out of the museum. Best (2) nearly turned into a disaster after the original renovators popped a 90 year sewer line redirecting an underground river that Col. Parsons and his crew came across in 1903-04; of course after the madness that was the 1998 Invert Project 116th recovered quite nicely. But that leak at the south end of the station had better be plugged up soon. Best (3) is especially grand since that very steep ramp that led from the Broadway line to the Lexington Av. Line was made more smooth - I just wish they do something about those old abutments over the downtown local track in the Lex side of the station.
Worst (2) Pacific Street, in my view, is one of the better stations on this stretch (if one does not go to the mezzanine level, which is still in progress as is the rest of the station). That some sort of what-passes-for-artwork was added to those damned bland tiles at local stops between Pacific and 36th is more than a waste of money, its a travesty - if I were on the Board I'd have contractors do it again and remove those tiles once and for all! Worst (4) just needs about one or two bad summers and winters before it falls apart totally.
Now on to my list:
Best - 1) 34th Street (Herald Square). Good artwork over the IND platforms, and better lighting and bells and whistles (sic) for the BMT platforms that are even more justifed with the return of express service. The PATH platforms could use some sprucing up though.
2) Main Street. It would be a damn shame if the line were ever extended and they had to break through the walls at the north end of the station. Same thing for Flatbush Avenue.
3) Times Square - PABT. Okay, so its a work in progress. But it looks promising. I'm going to miss the fact that this is no longer one of the greatest mazes in the world, but I'm sure there are many out there that won't. And besides, the "42s" being added to the tilework at the PABT is a interesting departure from the original IND. I especially like the new rotunda for the BMT end (I just hope no one falls over the barriers onto the tracks. Now, if they ever get to the 7 line, the Broadway line, and straighten out the shuttle platforms...
4) Penn Station. They really cleaned up the IND platforms, spruced up the IRT platforms, and that vaulted ceiling for the LIRR side is a nice touch. The new NJ Transit concourse is an especially nice touch. What still needs to be done is the passageway at the south side of the station.
5) Grand Central (Terminal only). As a kid, I never knew that there was a constellation at the terminal's ceiling. Good thing they cleaned it up, and better that they left that spot to show how dirty it once was and should never again be. The new shops and cleaned up chandeliers and columns give the station a railroad feel. Too bad only commuter trains depart from here now. As for the subway station, it's an entirely different story.
Worst - 1) Grand Central (Subway station). Mezzanine over the Lexingtion Avenue lines is too dark and too low - one can feel claustraphobic during rush hour. I agree that a better job can be done for the Flushing line platforms, and the indications for which train going where is too gimmicky - I bet it can't even indicate which train is local and which one is express. The shuttle platform, by far, is about the only highlight of the station, but it too is diminished without the old candystand near Track 1.
2) Westchester Square. Sort of in the same situation that Beverly Road and Cortelyou Road is in. Artwork is dull, no tiles and possibly very slippery exposed concrete at the landing above the street, and hardly anything done to the platform itself.
3) 28th Street/Broadway. Bland.
4) Fulton Street/Bway-Nassau. Did the MTA forget that the IRT (all platforms) was in the same station with the IND and BMT, and that its tileworks may need some sprucing up?
5) Stations with metal tiles covering over the actual ones. They aren't real, and years from now when they will be taken down, whoever is in charge will have the same problem as now. Only in some cases they will be worse. It's a quick fix that will actually be costlier in the long run.
Oh and one more thing: I took a ride on the A out to Rockaway this past Saturday, and was extremely annoyed at the track condition between Hammel's Wye and Mott Av. It seems that it is the same track that it was when I last came out that way in 1999! And I didn't even want to know about the conditions of the stations on this stretch as well. All I know is that Mott Av. station sits beneath an old semi-abandoned building in a not-so-well-to-do neighborhood. I wonder why people out there haven't complained about this in the past 4 years.
What exactly was wrong with the tracks?
I wouldn't say that the track is bad, its the stations and the structure, its full of rust and the stations are pretty dark. I think the Rockaway Park stations got new lighting recently but in general it needs to be spruced up.
Worst
1. 7th Ave
2. 23rd/Lex
3. Boewling Green
4. 3rd/149th
5. 86th/4th
I like the 51st, Wall St and Bowling Green lex stations. They are unique. The tile mosaics on white tile is so commonplace that it's boring. When I went through 51st street for the first time a few months ago, i was pleasantly surprised.
Government backs £10bn Crossrail but stalls for time
Transport Secretary Alistair Darling today said there was a “clear case” for the £10bn Crossrail Line 1 spanning east-west London.
However the legal process which will allow the line to be built will not begin until November 2004. This will disappoint many campaigners, including London Mayor Ken Livingstone, who were looking for the necessary legislation to be initiated before Parliament begins its summer recess on Friday, in order for a Bill to be ready to put to MPs next spring. It will also quash hopes that the scheme could still be completed in time for the 2012 Olympics.
Alistair Darling and Tony Blair today met business leaders at Downing Street to begin a drive for major private sector funding which is essential if Crossrail 1 is to be built. Ministers hope that at least £7bn will be contributed by businesses that will benefit from the new rail link. In a House of Commons written ministerial statement Darling said that if the project were to go ahead there would need to be “a very substantial contribution to its costs” from London’s business community.
The Transport Secretary said he would be assembling an expert team to assess the proposals for the link to ensure they offer “good value” and are “deliverable”. Cross London Rail Links, a joint venture company made up of Transport for London and the Strategic Rail Authority, was granted £154m in 2001 to develop Crossrail plans.
Despite backing Crossrail, Darling indicated that it would be pretty much business as usual for the development team. “I will be asking CLRL to develop their funding and route proposals in more detail,” the Transport Secretary said. He added that CLRL would be asked to undertake a period of detailed public consultation on the route.
More at www.transportbriefing.co.uk
The only way to get private funds for this project is only if same private financiers get a direct benefit from either the rail line or from the investment itself. Can you guarantee that Crossrail will make money and that the investors would get a cut of the profits thereof? Would the financiers get substantial tax breaks in return for providing the funds? Would Crossrail bring new custom or business to these same financiers’ doorsteps? Stuff like that. Privatization has already failed in the UK; Blair, Darling and Co. ought to stop pretending that they can continue dealing with the private sector when it comes to rail projects.
You are probably right. And the price-tag has gone up from £2 billion in 1994 to £10 billion today, according to:
http://news.independent.co.uk/low_res/story.jsp?story=424534&host=3&dir=66
According to the Prime Minister's web site at http://www.pm.gov.uk/output/page4144.asp
"Mr Darling said he would be assembling an expert team to assess the proposals for the link to ensure they offer 'good value' and are 'deliverable'. He also offered Government support for a Bill to take Crossrail forward if it could be proved the rail link was deliverable and viable. London businesses would have to play their part in funding the project."
So Mr Darling has decided that there is a "clear case" for Crossrail, but he doesn't know if it's worth the money!
See also http://news.independent.co.uk/low_res/story.jsp?story=424456&host=3&dir=66
They just lengthened the plats at Auburndale and Bayside to accept 12 cars. Was that a waste of money?
www.forgotten-ny.com
So far this is not nearly so bad as when the M1s came in. The shortages were so bad then (as M1s were pulled for rejiggling) that dozens of trains were cancelled for months. One train (a Brooklyn-Babylon) was cancelled so many times it was dubbed "The Phantom."
If you want an official explanation, send one of those customer comment cards in--they do reply to them.
Michael
Washington, DC
I thought the reason for the cancellation was that car men were on strike. At the time, the employees worked for the Pennsylvania Railroad, not the State of New York.
Michael
Washington, DC
Many trains were cancelled but "The Phantom" was, like, the first train to be cancelled on any given day, so it didn't run for months. For a while the MCTA or MTA (I forget whether the name changed yet) considered simply dropping the train from the schedule, but relented under ctiticism.
At the time, NYS already owned the RR, so I doubt anyone still worked under PRR. At any rate, there was no strike issue with the Phantom.
My 8 car unit Monday night WAS an M7!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Robert
Robert
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Rapid transit? I think not. No traffic signal preemption. The "dedicated lane" is clogged with cars, with no enforcement.
The MBTA says it's a "big success" becuase it is carrying more passengers than the previous "bus." Why? More frequent service - duh! We wonder how much more ridership there would have been if the MBTA kept its promise to replace the Washington Street El (old Orange Line alignment) with light rail in a dedicated right-of-way, that connects to the existing central subway through the abandoned Tremont Street tunnel that leads to the Boylston Street Station.
Peace
David
I will post a full report as time permits.
-Mark
Robert
A Vermont developer wants to build a few hundred riverfront townhouses on vacant industrial sites in East Providence - provided he can get bus or subway service to Downtown Providence via the abandoned bridge and freight tunnel, unused since 1981.
Trouble is, that tunnel now ends in a parking lot for a new condominium development, one story above street level and several blocks from the heart of Downtown, the elevated structure connecting it with the old Union Station having been torn down in 1986. The Statewide Planning Commission already rejected any reuse of the bridge & tunnel in the latest Transportation Improvement Program. The mayor of East Providence sees the project complete in two years. This should be interesting...
Mark
Mark
I posted some photos last Sunday.
Are you in the city these days?
I went in for a day trip on Monday; I still live in CT. -Nick
My trawl through the internet tells me that the first stock to bear the Metropolitan (Amalgamated) name were the camel-backed locomotives built for the Metropoloitan Line (no relation) in 1905. Thanks Tubeprune.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Last I heard, 6 service was normal (with major delays), 5 trains were running as shuttles between E180 and Dyre, and 4 service was split at 125.
I can see at least 30 Cars (possibly more) in the distance, like a large snake.
-Stef
I was on the last SB 6 express of the morning. It had to run express on the local south of Hunts Point to leave room for 4's to turn. Then it got held up waiting for a 4 that was taking its time to leave 125th.
Rush hour will be interesting.
-Stef
As I left Fulton, northbound, a #6 was entering Fulton going south, in service, but still thinking that it's going to Brooklyn Bridge. No idea where it actually ended up at. Another #6 was parked in the southbound storage track, south of Brooklyn Bridge, and a third #6 was being emptied out on the south side. I got off at BB, and got aboard a fourth #6, parked on the northbound local track, its signs still flashing "last stop". The sign was reset to a Pelham local halfway to Canal.
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/101000p-91413c.html
You will notice an interesting statement:
"NJTransit officials said it was too early to tell whether a wheel that came off the sixth car of the train was responsible."
DUH!!
"NJTransit officials said it was too early to tell whether a wheel that came off the sixth car of the train was responsible."
DUH!!
They want to determine whether the derailment caused the wheel to come off, or whether the wheel coming off caused the derailment. Things aren't always as simple as they seem at first glance.
Reed, 31, was charged with operating a motor vehicle while under the influence of alcohol, said a spokesman for Bronx District Attorney Robert Johnson.
Elizabeth Jordan, a DEA spokeswoman, said, "It's a very tragic situation and our sympathy goes out to the family of Mr. Torres."
She said that Reed, a non-law-enforcement employee in the DEA's city office, was off-duty and driving his own car.
The DEA "has a very strict policy that prohibits employees from driving a motor vehicle under the influence of alcohol even when driving a personal vehicle in an off-duty status as was apparently the case in this tragedy," she said.
Torres, a work-train operator who joined the Transit Authority in September 1988, was crossing the Bartow Avenue at Co-Op City Boulevard at 12:25 a.m. when he was hit by the car, which was traveling east on Bartow, police said.
Yesterday, a large white candle in a glass container was left under a tree on the sidewalk just feet from where he died.
On the glass were the words "David, we'll miss you. We love you. Sue, Teena, Jackie and kids."
One of Reed's neighbors at an apartment building on Hutchinson River Parkway described him as "very nice."
"He always greets us when he sees us," said next-door neighbor Joanne Ortiz. "He must be so scared."
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As for the intersection, it is VERY DANGEROUS. Speeding on Bartow Ave is not uncommon and despite the street being well lit at night, it is sad that accidents like this do happen. However, due to the NY State Penal code being a joke compared with New Jersey, Mr. Reed cannot get more than the maximum 15 years for Manslaughter because he was DWI.
I'd say anyone that is operating any type of vehicle (train, bus, or car) should be charged with Murder because the person is aware of the consequences BEFORE hitting the bottle about drinking and driving. Maybe more people will think about that.
I know that, I am not allowed to touch alcohol because of my religious beliefs and during my attendance at a Driving School, we were shown a video about the consequences of DWI during the mandatory 5 hour course.
And if NY is such a joke, how did over 70,000 folks get state paid accomodations in upstate villas?
As to your concept of bringing murder charges, you may be able to do that in NJ, but in the rest of the USA, because with murder you need some type of intent. Being drunk severly limits the ability to form intent. And in most of the civilized world, 15 years is considered very severe punishment. And in NY, Man 1 carries a max of 8 1/3 - 25. And with Patukeys (lack of) parole boards, not many make the first or even second board. Only CR dates allow folks to get out before maxing out.
For example, say you've already seriously injured someone else previously while driving drunk. So then you are presumed to know that your drinking and driving could lead to the death of another but not care.
Why should the accused have a right to appear before a grand jury? The purpose of a grand jury is to determine if the prosecutor has enough evidence to return an indictment. The idea is that if the prosecutor cannot convince a grand jury without anyone presenting evidence for the accused, the accused should not have to stand trial. That is also why the grand jury operates in secrecy, so no one will learn that charges were ever brought against anyone whom they fail to indict.
>>> As to your concept of bringing murder charges, you may be able to do that in NJ, but in the rest of the USA, because with murder you need some type of intent. <<<
Actually many states allow death from drunken driving to be charged as 2nd degree murder based on depraved indifference. The same charge that would be used for firing a gun into a crowd of people with no intent to kill any of them. Before murder 2 can be charged there must be additional facts, including a previous conviction for DUI and having taken a course on dangers of drinking and driving. That provides the proof that the person knew the risks of driving while intoxicated, and that he knew what driving while intoxicated was, and chose to do so anyway.
Tom
But chances are the person won't get charged with murder b/c they were under the influence and that basically brings the maximum penalty down. You're right they DO know the consequences of drinking & driving but we can't do anything about it unless there is some type of reform.
The paper ran a sperad some years back (when this law was passed) on the worst 100 offenders in the state, naming them, their record, and ranking them according to the expiration of their license suspension. The worst offenders would not be elligible to drive until the year 2050.
With the new law, any arrest for DWI will put them in jail for a minimum of five.
Elias
Wow, that is a tough law. It sounds tougher than the Patriot Act. In most states there must be a conviction following the arrest to get that much time. :-)
Tom
At that time of the morning there is barely any traffic so I am really shocked that this could have happened.
Not to reduce the tragedy of the situation but besides from being drunk the driver was probably speeding and Mr. Torres was probably not looking while crossing the street (when there is very little traffic one tends not to).
My condolences to his family.
I believe the major ways that pedestrians are killed through no fault of their own is that they know the vehicle is there but don't expect that the driver will do the incredibly reckless thing that they then do, like going through a red light, failing to yield when turning, or going much faster than the pedestrian thinks.
A friend was killed crossing at a green walk signal on 3rd Ave. An SUV (not drunk) came around the corner on his green light and just slammed into the friend. The SUV driver never imagined my friend wouldn't see him and stay out of the way of the SUV (not that that excuses the driver, since the pedestrian has the right of way).
The friend was nearly blind, not blind enough for a cane, just blind enough not to notice the SUV.
DITTO!
Thank you for telling me about him.
First of all, it was an accident. Was he drunk and breaking the law? Yes. Was he guilty? Yes? But does that make him one of the worst scumbags in the city? Everyone I know who knew Grey said he's a very nice guy. He didn't go out to kill anyone intentionally. Could the same type of accident have happened with a perfectly sober driver? Sure. Gray didn't leave the road or go on the sidewalk. The woman did step out into the road in front of the car. Personally I feel very sorry for Gray and his family. I feel it was a tragedy for all concerned.
Now, if you want to call a drunk driving cop a scumbag think of Sgt Sherman about 15 yrs ago on St Patricks Day. He was a training sgt with two rookies from a Bronx Pct assigned to a detail on Fifth Av in Manhattan on the Midnight to Eight to prevent people from parking on the St Paddy's Day Parade. They spent the whole night drinking in the patrol car and when they were dismissed he started to drive the 2 rookies back to the Bronx Precinct. On Park Av in the Upper East Side he fatally ran over an elderly psychologist and left the scene with the 2 rookies in the radio car and parked it at the Bronx station house as if nothing happened. Unfortunately for him someone took his car number down and the car was found to have blood on it. The two rookies testified for him to avoid prosecution (and was fired of course) and Sherman died in jail about 7-8 years later. Now that's a scumbag!
Now, more importantly, Kool, are you going to the rapid transit weekend this next weekend? I'll probably be there Sunday. And although I know you are mostly into subways, you gotta ride Bklyn car 4573!!
I meant to say "The two rookies testified against him to avoid prosecution..."
May come to Branford for only a few hours on Sunday morning, but I will take you up on your offer for riding #4573, because your posts that I read (and the discussion we had last time I was at Branford) give some nice insight when you were one of NYPD's finest. (Even though this issue is one of those disagreements). However, if it rains heavy, forget it I can't make it.
I was in Seattle for a few days at the time (August 2001), and the story made the local newspaper.
--Mark
*Mystical Chixs not included with package
Big deal! I used to body surf in Long Beach, NY without a belly board.
Tom
--Mark
Well, they are closer than Arizona. :-) Although the Green Line ends at the city of Redondo Beach, it is still an awfully long walk to the ocean, at least a mile or two, and those are not good surfing (south facing) beaches.
Tom
As for the intersection, it is VERY DANGEROUS. Speeding on Bartow Ave is not uncommon and despite the street being well lit at night, it is sad that accidents like this do happen. However, due to the NY State Penal code being a joke compared with New Jersey, Mr. Reed cannot get more than the maximum 15 years for Manslaughter because he was DWI.
I'd say anyone that is operating any type of vehicle (train, bus, or car) should be charged with Murder because the person is aware of the consequences BEFORE hitting the bottle about drinking and driving. Maybe more people will think about that.
I know that, I am not allowed to touch alcohol because of my religious beliefs and during my attendance at a Driving School, we were shown a video about the consequences of DWI during the mandatory 5 hour course.
And if NY is such a joke, how did over 70,000 folks get state paid accomodations in upstate villas?
As to your concept of bringing murder charges, you may be able to do that in NJ, but in the rest of the USA, because with murder you need some type of intent. Being drunk severly limits the ability to form intent. And in most of the civilized world, 15 years is considered very severe punishment. And in NY, Man 1 carries a max of 8 1/3 - 25. And with Patukeys (lack of) parole boards, not many make the first or even second board. Only CR dates allow folks to get out before maxing out.
For example, say you've already seriously injured someone else previously while driving drunk. So then you are presumed to know that your drinking and driving could lead to the death of another but not care.
Why should the accused have a right to appear before a grand jury? The purpose of a grand jury is to determine if the prosecutor has enough evidence to return an indictment. The idea is that if the prosecutor cannot convince a grand jury without anyone presenting evidence for the accused, the accused should not have to stand trial. That is also why the grand jury operates in secrecy, so no one will learn that charges were ever brought against anyone whom they fail to indict.
>>> As to your concept of bringing murder charges, you may be able to do that in NJ, but in the rest of the USA, because with murder you need some type of intent. <<<
Actually many states allow death from drunken driving to be charged as 2nd degree murder based on depraved indifference. The same charge that would be used for firing a gun into a crowd of people with no intent to kill any of them. Before murder 2 can be charged there must be additional facts, including a previous conviction for DUI and having taken a course on dangers of drinking and driving. That provides the proof that the person knew the risks of driving while intoxicated, and that he knew what driving while intoxicated was, and chose to do so anyway.
Tom
But chances are the person won't get charged with murder b/c they were under the influence and that basically brings the maximum penalty down. You're right they DO know the consequences of drinking & driving but we can't do anything about it unless there is some type of reform.
The paper ran a sperad some years back (when this law was passed) on the worst 100 offenders in the state, naming them, their record, and ranking them according to the expiration of their license suspension. The worst offenders would not be elligible to drive until the year 2050.
With the new law, any arrest for DWI will put them in jail for a minimum of five.
Elias
Wow, that is a tough law. It sounds tougher than the Patriot Act. In most states there must be a conviction following the arrest to get that much time. :-)
Tom
Buy as many rides as you want from $4 to $80.
Put $10 or more on your card and receive a 20 percent bonus. For example, a $20 purchase gives you $24 on your card. 12 trips for the price of 10.
You get an automatic free transfer between subway and bus, or between buses.
I got this straight from the MTA's website.
So, let me get this straight. Assuming you swiped into the subway, rode somewhere and left the system, with the 2 hour transfer limit still available, you only get that transfer if you get on a bus or between buses. You can't go back into the subway as it will deduct another fare?
Subway to Bus
Bus to Subway
Bus to Bus
Not allowed: Subway to Subway, EXCEPT the following stations which you can reenter them as a free transfer within the 2 hour period
59th st/Lexington Ave (except 3rd Ave side), 63rd st/Lexington Ave
Court Square (HEET entrance), 45th Road/Courthouse Square/IRT
Coney Island*, Avenue X, 86th st/Sea Beach line, Brighton Beach*
*-A second transfer is allowed if using the B68 bus before re-entering at either station.
Note: On the above stations, rentry is only allowed once and there is no additional transfer for a bus. I don't know if an allowance is applied to the Staten Island buses or SIR from the St. George ferry terminal.
Once you enter the subwaystarting a trip, you have 2 hours from the time the card was used to transfer to a bus. Not counting Kool's list above.
Also, add the 51-53/Lex complex (all entrances) to your list.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
I have not been able to find the numbers for the grades on that line, not even from extensive use of various search engines. Having used the Essex Street station recently, I was rather struck by how steep the grade out of the station onto the Williamsburg Brige appears from halfway down the platform—visually, from that angle, it seems to be no less than ten percent at the very least. How steep is the grade in actuality? Thanks in advance…
Initially, and maximally, leaving Essex the grade is 4.6% at the portal. (Leaving Marcy for Manhattan, the grade is 2.75%.)
Robert
Thanks for the replies. 5.5 percent is two-tenths of a percent steeper than the ruling grade on Saluda (former Southern Railway, closed last year by NS) which used to be the steepest US grade upon which freight trains ran, at 5.3 percent. How much of a strain are these grades on the subway trains? They seem to take them with not a lot of effort.
River tunnels rarely have such steep grades because the tracks can get gradually deeper as they approach the water. After all, the PATH stations at WTC, Exchange Place, Christopher, and Pavonia are all quite deep. Amtrak is quite deep at Penn station already. Usually the stations just before a tunnel are deep.
But with Canal being underground and quite near the west end of the MB, and the MB being as high as it is, there's no place to put the grade but right on the bridge approach.
John
-- Ed Sachs
3% leaving Grand Central; 4.5% leaving Vernon-Jackson.
At that time of the morning there is barely any traffic so I am really shocked that this could have happened.
Not to reduce the tragedy of the situation but besides from being drunk the driver was probably speeding and Mr. Torres was probably not looking while crossing the street (when there is very little traffic one tends not to).
My condolences to his family.
I believe the major ways that pedestrians are killed through no fault of their own is that they know the vehicle is there but don't expect that the driver will do the incredibly reckless thing that they then do, like going through a red light, failing to yield when turning, or going much faster than the pedestrian thinks.
A friend was killed crossing at a green walk signal on 3rd Ave. An SUV (not drunk) came around the corner on his green light and just slammed into the friend. The SUV driver never imagined my friend wouldn't see him and stay out of the way of the SUV (not that that excuses the driver, since the pedestrian has the right of way).
The friend was nearly blind, not blind enough for a cane, just blind enough not to notice the SUV.
DITTO!
So the teaser is this: How can you get from Point A to Point B and return to Point A, while making 3 different transfers, and the transfers cannot be among subway lines inside the fare control areas? You are allowed transfers from subway to bus, bus to bus, but you cannot transfer from one subway line to another without exiting the system. And a total of THREE transfers must be used.
Good luck!
Take that Canarsie bus, then L and 4 to 59th/Lex, exit to street, get back in for free because of the nature of Lex/59 station, and reverse the route.
You don't have to use 59th st/Lex, you can use ANY station because you started you trip by bus, took the bus to the L WITHOUT using the card. Rode the trains anyway you want, getting out and making sure you got back in by "transferring" (using the transfer on your card 2 hours from the start of the bus ride.) and then went back to Rockaway Parkway for the bus ride home.
BTW: It's the B42 bus that runs to/from the Rockaway Parkway/BMT station.
Or how they are accomplishable?
If the customer uses their MC the free transfer gets used up, so our driver issues a paper transfer for the bus to bus move.
The "official" 3 legged transfers are in "the tables", so the MC gives two free transfers.
Is that it?
Jimmy
One of the regulars on the Strappies board posted the information.
I went to the sight and lo and behold they started to build it during 1920 and 1925 (it was planned as far back as 1905).
Parts of it are now used for water pipes.
There are pictures and information at:
http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/subway.html
Mark
Mark
Mark
The nice thing about Cincinnati transit planning is that the new bus proposal, which *could* work, calls for large outlying transfer nodes which could stimulate development and will make bus transit much more convenient. The bus planners have their thinking caps on, and can jump either way, with or without rail transit.
Thank you for telling me about him.
First of all, it was an accident. Was he drunk and breaking the law? Yes. Was he guilty? Yes? But does that make him one of the worst scumbags in the city? Everyone I know who knew Grey said he's a very nice guy. He didn't go out to kill anyone intentionally. Could the same type of accident have happened with a perfectly sober driver? Sure. Gray didn't leave the road or go on the sidewalk. The woman did step out into the road in front of the car. Personally I feel very sorry for Gray and his family. I feel it was a tragedy for all concerned.
Now, if you want to call a drunk driving cop a scumbag think of Sgt Sherman about 15 yrs ago on St Patricks Day. He was a training sgt with two rookies from a Bronx Pct assigned to a detail on Fifth Av in Manhattan on the Midnight to Eight to prevent people from parking on the St Paddy's Day Parade. They spent the whole night drinking in the patrol car and when they were dismissed he started to drive the 2 rookies back to the Bronx Precinct. On Park Av in the Upper East Side he fatally ran over an elderly psychologist and left the scene with the 2 rookies in the radio car and parked it at the Bronx station house as if nothing happened. Unfortunately for him someone took his car number down and the car was found to have blood on it. The two rookies testified for him to avoid prosecution (and was fired of course) and Sherman died in jail about 7-8 years later. Now that's a scumbag!
Now, more importantly, Kool, are you going to the rapid transit weekend this next weekend? I'll probably be there Sunday. And although I know you are mostly into subways, you gotta ride Bklyn car 4573!!
I meant to say "The two rookies testified against him to avoid prosecution..."
May come to Branford for only a few hours on Sunday morning, but I will take you up on your offer for riding #4573, because your posts that I read (and the discussion we had last time I was at Branford) give some nice insight when you were one of NYPD's finest. (Even though this issue is one of those disagreements). However, if it rains heavy, forget it I can't make it.
I was in Seattle for a few days at the time (August 2001), and the story made the local newspaper.
Going Loco, a collection of bizarre and barmy train tales.
I found this one most amusing:
Some years ago a friend and I were travelling from Sheffield to Barnsley when the train ground to a halt. The guard explained there was a cow on the line. My friend asked the guard, why it couldn't just be picked up and thrown over the hedge, which earned him an odd look. "Are you a farmer?" asked the guard. "No, I'm a graphic designer. What's that got to do with anything?" retorted my friend.
He was getting some very strange looks from other passengers. "They don't move by themselves," continued my friend, who has always had a bit of a warped sense of humour. He was soon locked in an exchange with an elderly lady who took issue with this statement.
All of a sudden we heard an almighty bang and a train coming the other way thundered past, having smashed into the cow. "Brilliant," says my friend, "I hope that knocked the stuffing out it." His heartlessness really irritated other passengers and when we finally got to Barnsley two ladies gave him a dressing down. As we walked to the pub, I said I hope it didn't suffer too much. "What suffered?" he asked. "The cow on the line," I said. "A cow! It was a cow!" he shouted. He looked mortified with embarrassment. "For God's sake, I thought he said couch!"
Andrew.
On a lighter note, I'm reminded of Tom and Ray Magliozzi (The Car Guys) who say the best way to bring about responsible use of energy is to burn up all the oil as fast as we can so that we'll be forced to embrace the alternatives.
Mark
Mark
We're gonna "figure out how to make said technologies work optimally" LONG, LONG, LONG, LONG, before we completely run out of oil.
Mark
Mark
Mark
Mark
Mark
That's what the people on Easter Island thought...
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101030721-464406,00.html
http://www.ny1.com/ny/TopStories/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=1&subtopicintid=1&contentintid=31724
Wayne
Quite the opposite, THIS is a real trip, the MOD trips were fabricated and unnatural. If all you do is ride "MOD-like" trips, then you aren't railfanning the NYC Subway system, you are just riding some old cars around. And were you on the MOD trips at all?
Also, there were for sure "creepy photo-taking guys" on the railfan trip today. I'll be on it later.
Me? Bah.
I had no intention of going. I was just trying to straighten out
the SPECIFICS and DETAILS for the unspoken 'lurkers' amongst us
(in case THEY had a free day or few hours to ride).
Last night was really the journalist in me, talking. Asking for
details and specifics... the brah saying "456 mezzanine" is bland to all hell.
(THAT mezzanine is HUUUUUUUUUGE, bub!--- unlike Yawnkee Stadium,
there's always MORE THAN 1 person standing in that mezzanine area.)
So the specs were vague and unprecise...
OTOH, if I happened to be downtown, I, too would want to know EXACTLY where
the rizzide was leaving from....
Thanks for the bark.
;)
That leaves voting for soemone else in the next election.
Unanimous decision indeed. More like unanimous payoff.
While you were doing that, you missed a bigger story - Silverstein wants Libeskind to move the 1776 foot tower closer to downtownm and wants to place an extra tower on the transit hub. Libeskind doesn't like the idea; there's a meeting set to resolve it.
The MTA got to hide those ones. The ones that came to light were quickly excused and even countenanced by Hevesi (probably pressure from above). It's either "We the People" or "We the Sheeple", choose soon…
seriously now, Dude, ranting like that is fun, but it isn't productive, because there isn't an informed discussion going on here.
Now, if all you want to do is rant, and it makes you feel better, OK. But if you want to dig up and then list here the revenue sources MTA uses, and break them down for us, and then advocate for the ones which could take the place of a fare hike, then we'll all learn something.
I like a lot of the stuff Gene Russianoff does, but this clearly was aimed at building membership and money through grandstanding.
Plus, you don't need to pay two bucks. MetroCards (except the Fun Pass) offer steeper discounts than they did prior to the fare hike. Do a little budget planning, and you're paying less than $1.40 for your ride. Plus, by November, if all goes according to plan, you can get Insured Monthly MetroCards which are replaceable if lost.
Is CityTicket active now on LIRR?
No, The Rumor Is January and then, only on weekends, initially.
Peace,
ANDEE
How's that? That's certainly true for some people with certain riding patterns, but for many of us there's no way to pay less than $1.67 per ride.
Referenda are wonderful if people have the attention to deliberate and reason. They can lead to shameful results otherwise.
You forgot to mention that they also believe income taxes are evil. Thus, they leave no alternative to the property tax.
The MTA needs a real increase in the average per ride fare to get money for needed capital improvements to increase capacity. A more equitable rise in the cost of monthlies and weeklies would do this.
But what am I saying? I've been in New York for 21.5 years, enough time to see the BS that is NY state politics.
The judgement notes that the MTA is allowed a certain amount of discretion in how it performs its accounting, and in fact should be taking a multi-year view according to state law.
Therefore, all that happened here is NYPIRG and Toussaint wasted our money.
John
Sadly, I was chuckling at those who actually thought the fare hike would be overturned and was quite surprised that it was successful at the first legal bus stop along the way.
The decision noted that the plaintiffs didn't dispute this contention. And they essentially ruled that the plaintiffs had neither right nor power to micromanage how the MTA does its financial planning
So basically the Strappies are playing Hylan--using fare demagoguery for their own political aggrandizement.
There's no reason to be surprised. The same thing happened last time. They changed the tokens the last time they hiked fares. I forgot who challenged them, it was probably Strappies again. They won the first round, and before the first judge's decision was reversed the token booths were actually buying back the new tokens! That lasted only a day or two.
Interesting. I explained the Straphanger's complaint to a person with financial expertise but no train knowledge a while back. He said in his opinion the MTA should have amortized the one-shot windfall over MANY years, not the 2 years over which they did amortize it or the 1 year over which Straphangers and Hevesi said they should amortize it.
#3 West End Jeff
The ruling came from the top court in New York State.
The only place the Strappies can go is the Federal Courts, who will refuse them.
Actually, the Appellate Division of the New York Supreme Court, which issued the ruling, is not the highest state court despite its name. The Court of Appeals is the highest.
#3 West End Jeff
Have you read it? Have you found any faults in its reasoning? Would you care to share them with us?
Biggest faults I find in there are the appellate court’s conclusions that a government agency (the MTA) should have absolute control over the decisions on where and how to allocate their funds with absolutely no accountability to the traveling public, and that the courts system should continue with same “laissez-faire” attitude despite the removal of checks and balances and the potential for abuse by same government officials in charge of the MTA. I further disagree with the courts that it would incur too great of an “additional expense” for the MTA to engage in “total transparency” of its accounting practices. I question the very constitutionality of such laws, which give the MTA too much power.
So you have a couple of choices:
1) Wait to see what the NY Supreme Court says if the appeal reaches it
2) Contact your elected officials and ask them to change the law.
Mind you, even if I agreed with you, I wouldn't necessarily want to change the law, ubless I could control the introduction of amendments. For example, suppose somebody included a provision to strip the toll bridges away from MTA? The result would remove a major funding source from the subway.
The courts don't make law; they merely interpret existing law. If you think the law is flawed, speak to your legislators. The five judges who ruled in this case didn't express their opinion of the law -- they merely stated that the MTA was in compliance with it. They did not have the authority to rule according to what they happen to think the law should be.
I question the very constitutionality of such laws, which give the MTA too much power.
Then raise a constitutional challenge. (I can't imagine what the content of the challenge would be, but I'll leave that up to you.) The petitioners didn't challenge the constitutionality of the law; they simply claimed that the MTA was in violation. The courts disagreed. End of story, unless the Court of Appeals disagrees with the Appellate Division.
Of course we all knew the MTA wasn't going to roll back fares in the first case and the MTA knows they would have alot to loose and theyre not that dumb so all of the above will never NEVER happen.
That means you, pal :0)
Plus, in NY, the Three Guys in That Room in Albany serve as writers, directors, and choreographers.
Given the government was the party appealing I do not think they are inclined to bribe. But I said there were other grounds, so let me explain.
One way is to assume the judges here agreed completely with the trial judges but suspected the state's highest court would eventually rule for the MTA. Suspecting they would be reversed if they themselves did not reverse the lower courts they went ahead and reversed. If you want to get into conspiracy theory, actually, consider that the MTA was represented by the husband of the Chief Judge of the state's highest court. Coincidence?
Or look at it in terms of "judicial restraint". A more open process like that advocated by Judge York in the straphanger's trial is something that I think everyone is for or should be for. But the appeals judges want the state house to do this and not Judge York (or any other judge). Will the process become more transparent without judicial pressure? Can it? That is an important question.
Reading the other responses I think I am in the minority that thinks the appeals court got it wrong on the transit suit (I think they got it right on the tolls for the reasons given by them. The statutes are very different). I think a fare hike will be needed but I also feel that a more transparent process would be in the good interests of everyone. So I honestly don't think the proposed remand to the MTA for new hearings would have been that bad. Now some people will feel they were deceived or at least there will always be a dark cloud over this fair hike that reduces trust in the MTA. That is valuable capital for future projects. In battling NIMBY's the MTA needs all the help it can get and all the trust it can inspire. NIMBY's will point to the way in which this fare hike came to be as a sign that you can't trust the agency. Could our favorite projects even when funded by monetary capital be done in by a lack of trust? This is why I feel new hearings should have been held.
But we don't have to share a man's biases to agree with the result. For example, the ku klux klan strongly believes Al Sharpton would make a bad president. If someone agrees with that conclusion do they have to assume those biases or pretend there are not any biases?
We all have our prejudices, our biases. Do you think that the political backgrounds of the U.S. Supreme Court Justices had an impact on how the 2000 Presidential Election court cases were decided? Look at Earl Warren's record before he became Chief Justice, particularly in California in the 1940s, and then look at his record once he was on the Supreme Court. Given what's been going on over the last few weeks, can you imagine the prayers that Pat Robertson would be directing his way?
The point is this: the Straphangers, or other groups will always find a judge who is sympathetic to their cause on matters such as this. They did last time; they did again this time in Judge York, who, by his words, was clearly on their side (go back and read the newspaper articles on him before he reached his decision). The fact that yesterday's decision was unanimous (and I don't believe that all of the judges were Pataki appointees) may speak to what they feel was the quality of their reasoning, and will have an impact on how this case proceeds in court from this point forward. If they achieved their initial victory through a possibly biased decision, then they shouldn't complain when the call goes against them. You can't have it both ways.
To go back to your example about Justice Black what motivated him to write his opinion for the supreme court in the Japanese internment case? Was it that he did not like Japanese people? Was it that he did not want to write an opinion condemning the man who appointed him (President Roosevelt)? Was it patriotism?
Or take one of the famous cases of actual bribery. Judge Martin T. Manton of the federal Court of Appeals here in the 2nd Circuit, a very prestigious court, was bribed and none of his colleagues suspected it as motivating the opinions he wrote or the suggestions he gave others (Appeals judges generelly sit on panels). Or in our own times, Bush v. Gore. We can read the opinions just fine but it again is difficult to guess at what exactly motivated them. Suspicion of deception (not bribery-I think that charge is unsubstantiated) may hurt the MTA in the long run and it is for that reason I would have rather seen new hearings held to authorize the fare hike to give it a legitimacy that it now lacks. I hope that opponents of our favorite projects do not take up this argument.
As a matter of what people should expect of judges I think we kid ourselves if we assume there are no biases or pressures on judges whose opinions we like (and the opposite on those we do not like). What we should hope for is judges who are conscious of those biases so that they can keep an open mind when judging.
That is a job left to the state legislature. The decision made this point. It is not for the judges to impose new rules on the MTA.
So I honestly don't think the proposed remand to the MTA for new hearings would have been that bad.
There are no grounds for new hearings, given that the MTA violated no laws in the hearings they did hold.
No.
The appeals judges followed the law of the State of New York. The lower court judge did not.
I really like this one in particular (R68A on the Q over the bridge)...your shots are nice overall...once you acquire more skills and keep practising, you will get better and better over time...
Incognito
Mark
Ugh, from using only 'analog' disposable cameras, how do you create that blur effect. I assume a computer, yes?
Mark
Subject matter & angle are just fine, but most of the photos are too dark.
til next time
1) For the BMT Jamaica el, Fulton Street narrows and becomes less busy
east of Crescent Street, and for the BMT Fulton el, Pitkin Avenue does the same east of Euclid Avenue, hence the jog northwest to wider, busier streets more suitable to having an el line over them.
2) At the Brooklyn-Queens border in this area, the northern boundary
of residential streets shifts north from Jamaica Avenue west of Elderts Lane in Brooklyn to Park Lane South east of Elderts Lane and Dexter Court in Queens. Hence the jog northwest of the two BMT Eastern
Division els to reduce walking distance from homes to stations.
It's also been suggested to me that part of the reason might have been
to reduce walking distance for visiting the cemeteries that border on
Jamaica Avenue between Highland Blvd. and Cypress Hills St.
Please comment. Thank you in advance.
Fulton Street peters out shortly after Crescent. Beyond Crecent Jamiaca Ave. is the main drag of the area, becoming Jericho Turnpike, the Middle Counry Road and extending unbroken to Greenport (with a jog to Orient). So it was a natural place for the el to go.
I assume the extension of the Fulton el (also Dual Contract) beyond City Line was a similar issue.
-- Ed Sachs
Wasn't the Jamaica Plank Road privately owned at the time the el was built? Also, the Jamaica Horse Car Railroad was already running on it, taking passengers to the Union Race Course.
Most sources I've read place the Jamaica Plank Road's demise much later. The 4 July 1897 issue of the Brooklyn Eagle (page 15) has an interesting article regarding the then existing Plank Road and its toll houses.
http://www.richmondhillhistory.org/JamaicaAve.html
The 1897 date is correct. Just because a library's collection ends in 1888 does not mean that the company had no further existence. :-)
The Lex Ave El ran to VanSiclen in 1885 (and Cypress Hills in 1893), well before the Jamaica Plank Road's demise.
There were surface tracks on the Jamaica Plank Road before 1897.
http://www.nycrail.com/bmt/historical_myrtle_el.htm
How do you know that the color photo from sidewalk level included in
your post is indeed the Fulton El over Pitkin Avenue ?
Well, it's clearly the Fulton St. el. Karl B, our resident old-timey expert confirmed that. The street appears to be too wide to be over Euclid Ave.
---jon
(Dave, feel free to add it to your collection, if you like.)
don't y'all just love loopholes? ;-)
--jon
So, according to your Bombardier tour guide, AirTrain JFK might charge $3 from the outset, as opposed to $5 (but we don't know for sure yet)...
That would change the economics a little.
The EWR Air Train surcharge is $5 for NJ bound travelers and $7 dollars for NY bound travelers.
I noticed it at 59th Street when, after the doors closed, the T/O put his head out the (left-side) window and looked back. (Of course, with the curve, he couldn't see past the second or third car, and there are no monitors at the T/O position.) I didn't see anyone in either cab at the C/R position.
The B train behind it did have a C/R.
Robert
Needless to say, the conductor got a roto-reaming.
I'm surprised if it has happened since ... but not very. People DO make mistakes. Although some are perfect I suppose, and don't. :)
Robert
Why would the T/O be looking back at the action on the left side of the train after the doors were closed? Isn't the T/O usually on the right side of the train after the doors are closed, except with OPTO?
No, they don't allow it -- that's why I found it so startling.
Weekend N trains and late night R trains do not run OPTO. On my Sea Beach trip on Sunday, I was chatting with one of the C/R's I know. He was complaining that Stillwell gives the N trains at 86th st a "push", that is they leave a minute or two before their scheduled time, and when he arrives at 36/4, master tower puts the holding lights on him because he was running hot.
As does the late night Lefferts shuttle.
-Dave
John
And I have happin to have the copy of the todays Staten Island Advance and here's something that was not on the online verison that I have scan and it's related to what they talking about
What you're seeing (and I'm seeing it as well) may be remnants of this weekend's GO, which also sent an R-142 set to the 3. Those cars were never transferred to the 3 at all; they just ran there temporarily.
Subway conductor Eric “Badlands” Booker won third place, eating 29 hot dogs. Ed "Cookie" Jarvis of Long Island broke the American record, taking second place with 30 and a half hot dogs.
Entire story here: the story
(V) no service
(Q) BB-(via bridge)-(6Av)-(53St tunnel)-FH Brighton Express; Queens Local
NYCT's proposal for service next year has a yellow Q and an orange B on the Brighton line. While anything can change between now and then, I think it's highly unlikely that the orange Q will return.
The (B) on Brighton (Local?) instead of (D)? New for me.
Where did you find it?
It's been posted here many times in recent months. NYCT held a hearing about it last month; the information was included in the hearing announcement.
My train might as well have been a local. It would still arrive at Main st at the same time.
T TRAIN INFORMATION NEXT TRAIN TO SURBURBAN STATION
DESINATION TIME NUMBER TRACK
If anyone has the train desination readings on where the T train terminates, please post it.
Thats all the ones I know.How about consulting a map at www.mbta.com
If you are askking where the MBTA Commuter Rail goes from South Station (and North Station), look here.
If you want to read about the South Station announcer, look here.
If anyone knows what the desination terminal readings are on the T Train Information Next Train to Surburban Stations bigboard at South Station, please post it.
NEWARK CITY SUBWAY
Much work is underway at Pennsylvania Station both in the mezzinine area and at track level. Passengers now board outbound cars on Track 1 from the inside platform. (The one between tracks 1 & 2). The former outbound platform for track one in undergoing extensive rebuilding. Work is also being done to the inbound platform on track 5.
EXCHANGE PLACE
There is a dispatchers/security booth in the passageway connecting the east and westbound platforms with lighted display board for the Exchange Place and new WTC Interlocking. It seems as though the temporary station at WTC will have six tracks. If you get a chance take a look at it.
The platforms at Exchange Place have been lengthened to hold ten car trains. However only eastbound trains can fully use this. Westbound trains to Newark can platform ten cars but the Hoboken trains will probably be limited to six since the switch for the Hoboken trains is about one car length in from the edge of the station.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry, RedbirdR33
The same thing was done with the old Exchange Place station too. Newark trains were eight cars long, and the switch was exactly one car length's into the station on the westbound side. Newark trains crossed the switch fully, before stopping. Hoboken trains stopped right at the points.
There was a NYCsubway-esque display mounted at the wall in front of the conductor position. As soon as a departing Hoboken train crossed the points it would flash "DO NOT OPEN THE FRONT CAR". I suppose that was for the eventuality of an 8-car Hoboken train, which would have to cross the switch before stopping, and the first car would have to remain closed.
Larry, RedbirdR33
The train was heading uptown to Parkchester Av (One day they will fix that). The strip maps were #5 type.
What's going on? I got the impression that the #6 would be exclusive to the R142A's.
To make things even stranger the R142A that I got on which was going to Pleham Bay had #4 strip maps. I only got the numbers of the front 5 cars 7721-7725 (7725 was in the lead).
Since the problem seemed to be on the NB 4/5 track, many 4 trains were turning at 3rd Avenue on the 6. I guess one remained in service.
-Stef
But anyway I'm glad to see the gang had a great time today. Nothing like a SubTalker Bash to get you through the day right?
-Stef
6 TO PARKCHESTER-177(ST)
"The name of the TV character, seen here."
I do believe the image I have linked to is the actual image used on tonight's show.
Also, here is Final Jeopardy! from tonight, a question that two of the three contestants missed.
Category: The Cabinet
"The Federal Emergency Management Agency, Secret Service, and Coast Guard are all under this cabinet department."
And Final jeopardy was "What is Homeland Security?"
He came from the back of my head and the front of my name.
:-)
2) What is the Department of Homeland Security
Jimmy
I've railfanned on foot and by car, by foot it's very flexible, but much too slow, and my car it's fast, but too hard to get into places, everything is dependent upon your ability to find a parking spot, not a certain thing in an urban setting. I have a cheap Huffy 15 speed mountain bike, which while not the best bike ever made (it has a very poor shifting system) certainly gets me where I want to go.
Anyone else have any railfanning via bike stories?
BTW: Slightly off topic, but it would appear that there will be a bike trail along the east bank of the Schuykill River between Spring Garden and Chestnut St, with a ramp up to Market and Chesnuts Streets. This could be a real boon to those who want to catch the rare freights that roll through the tunnel there.
Speaking of which, I wanna get a nice pic of my car with the subway in the background. Any idea the best location to do such a thing?
Or park on the shoulder.
But now that I think of it, there's a roadway under the Jamaica Yard approach, isn't there? You could try that sometime in the early morning when they'd be likely to take trains out of the yard to put into service.
Here's the one you're thinking of:
(The first two were taken during a GO that routed all Jamaica-bound trains through the yard, so there was a lot of traffic. The third was taken from a MOD train.)
While I was there, I noticed an MTA Engineer's office right across the street in what must have been an old store or house the TA just descided to buy and use as an office. Unfortunately it wasn't in that great of shape, so I didn't take any photos of it (I would have looked pretty weird doing so).
I think it would be interesting to bike along the ROW of an actual railroad like you did, but in NYC that's tough since Amtrak/LIRR are generally either elevated or underground, and going out to Long Island or points north would take too long by bike.
But other than that, very very nice shots. I didn't take a camera with me down there, it really was just a 'get out of the house' trip, I wanted to scout out how to get to some good photography spots. Perhaps later this week I'll go out with a camera. To tell the truth the only two trains I saw were Silverliners over by Arsenal, very cool cause if you go back behind the HUP parking garages you're right at grade with the tracks, I might have to bring a milk crate on my bike to see over the fences. But it was getting dark and I don't have a light for my bike, so I had to get back.
BTW: I was down by the university St bridge, theres a massive building called the 'Module VII Chiller' you (or anyone else out there) wouldn't happen to know what it is, would you?
I don't know about the 'Module VII Chiller'; I haven't been near the tracks at University Ave and Arsenal Tower for 25 years, except for riding past on SEPTA and AMTRAK trains.
When I lived in Brooklyn, I went to all my favorite locations by bike. You could pull off anywhere to watch and photograph, which you can't do in a car.
Longest railfanning bike trip--Brooklyn-Staten Island-Newark-Manhattan-Brooklyn.
My dad was pretty tolerant of my wanderings, but when he found out how far I went by bike without telling him, I was grounded for a week.
Huh? Um, run by whom? You don't know how many times I've wished for that. And not only to S.I. I'd love to see a "Brooklyn Annex" line, from downtown Brooklyn to Jersey City or Hoboken. You can actually DO that trip, kinda, now, by transferring to another boat in Manhattan. It's viable but kludgy. I'm hoping for a direct run. With all the new offices going up along the Hudson there could very well be a market for Brooklyn workers going over. I think if there were a serious attempt to re-instate Bklyn/S.I. ferries it would have to be more a regional thing. Maybe re-start the Tottenville/Perth Amboy ferry to enable a nice long pedestrian-friendly cross regional corridor. I done that route and similar dozens of times on foot. But the lack of access from western S.I. to Jersey is a p.i.t.a. You can stand there and see the NJ side but unless you drive or hitchhike over (done it plenty of times...) it's really out of the question. Except for Bayonne of course. One day I was stubborn so I made my way over to the final entrance to the Outterbridge Crossing from local streets and hitched a ride over the bridge and walked to Princeton Junction. But that's another story...
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/BrightonLine/brighton0012
Also, have any of you used those attachments that I saw advertised a lot in the 80s that let you ride your bike ON THE RAILS?
You can take bikes on SEPTA trains off-peak, too. The best for bikes are the Portland MAX trains. They have bike hooks on the ceilings of the LRVs so you you can hang your bike up and out of the way of other passengers. I saw a bike policeman use it once when I was there.
Mark
Yes.
The ride parrallels the A to Mott Avenue pretty much the whole trip. You get two great views: one of the ocean and another of the concrete vidaduct and occasional passing "A" Trains. A camera with a good zoom will get you some memorable shots.
Another recommended bike/rail excursion can be done via LIRR to Montauk Point. I have a MTA bike permit and have taken one of those nice long trips out to Montauk with the bike for a great day-trip. From the train station you get to bike Rte 27 (Montauk Highway) out to the literal "end" for some great ocean vistas, or the famous lighthouse tour. Be prepared for some serious hills along the way...definitely not for the novice biker.
I was 10 yrs 9 mos. It was a few blocks on the Church Ave. but by my 11th birthday I was hitting the entire city.
Anyway, I first railfanned at 12 years old in 1997 [I'm 18 now].
My first railfan trip was on the A or C from Columbus Circle to somewhere in Brooklyn. When I got home, I was greeted by the cops and a very worried father, even though I was only out an hour longer than expected.
When I was in 8th grade, our social studies teacher asked how many of us had been on the subway by ourselves. A bit less than half the boys and maybe a quarter of the girls.
If I had begun railfanning just a few years later than I did I would have missed so much ... gate cars, triplxes waiting to take Dodgers fans home, trolley buses on St. John's Place, the original Newark extension cars on the H&M, the Polo Grounds shuttle, 46 (count 'em) 46 trolley lines in Pittsburgh ... and on ... and on ...
Took the 1 from 225th to doctor's office at 72nd Street.
I was told to go to doc's and come back straight home.....
................ you gotta BELIEVE I did the Express dip (96 to Chambers)
before I went skipping back home like a good little brah.
0 : )
My first time ever was 1981, which had me at 4 years.
Dad would take me out every Saturday to ride the 1 roundtrip
from 225 to SF to 242 VCP back to 225... (at the RFW, no less).
I remember R12/R14/R15/R17/R21/22/R26/28/29 cars all on the 1
The thread said FIRST TIME.
The post said ON YOUR OWN.
(That explains my doing a RE DUX!!)
My last trip was Memorial Day weekend when I rode the Morris and Essex Lines to both terminals, Dover and Monclair.
I was already using the many alternative routes in Paris so I can ride more metro lines to get anywhere. I organised my first "class metro-fan trip" by the time I was ten. That trip got cut short because many of my classmates enjoyed too much their first encounter with the East side of Paris and we ended up cancelling the rest of the journey and stayed in the Bois de Vincennes. I was one of the very few in the Japanese school to live on the East side of Paris. My plan was easily approved by our class teacher back then, but later I learnt that my neighbourhood was classified as "not a place to visit" by the school. LOL!
Anyone who knows the history of the R7/9s on the Eastern Division, based on the date I stated above, knows exactly why that R7/9 never appeared.
I still remembered what I did. After waiting over an hour, I boarded an "LL" of R27-30s, took that to Union Square, transfered for the "N" of R46s, took that to 34th St and transferred to the "D" of R32s.
I remember that the "LL" stations north of Bway-Junction were some of the nastiest, damp stations I have every seen.
At the same time, I was travelling more for my job and foudn myself using transit a lot to go adventuring in strange cities. My first MARTA ride was a good example. I had an unexpected six-hour layover in Atlanta, and so instead of sitting around the airport I decided to ride the train downtown. The MARTA ride was my favorite part of the whole adventure. I was taken instantly by the clean and attractive system, a big change from my usual SEPTA. From then on I tried to ride MARTA every time I had a flight through Atlanta.
I think the first time I went for a ride just to railfan was on my way back from New York. I stopped in Newark to ride the PCCs before they were retired. I rode the entire line and back. I think later that year I did my second such trip, when I rode to Baltimore to ride its subway. I include both of these trips because when I rode the Newark City Subway, I had been in New York for other reasons. When I went to Baltimore, I had no other business there and didn't do anything but ride trains and take pictures.
Mark
Anyway to answer the question, back when I was less than 4, I would ride on the Hartsfield people mover anytime I was at the airport. My parents took me out on MARTA a couple of times for fun when I was less than 10. The first time I railfanned MARTA by myself I was around 15.
Mark
My first experience "alone", without adults, was with a friend around 11. My mother let us take the bus to Queens Center(Q58, then B58). I was never really into buses, so one day my friend and I decided to take the subway there instead (without telling her), via East New York. We took the M to Wyckoff, the L to East New York, the A to Hoyt, and the G to Woodhaven. My mother would have killed me if she knew I was "alone" on the subway, and in East New York no less (in the early 80's)! Most of the time we would take the subway the easy way to Queens Center: The M to Wyckoff, the L to Lorimer, and then the G, but that one time we wanted to take the long way (becuase we wanted to ride more elevated than just the M to Wyckoff. It was a few years before I told her that we were taking the subway when we would leave, and not the bus (buut I never told her how young we were when we started that!)
Light Rail Chic
You're right, SEPTA's subway-surface system offers lots of great railfanning, both at the portal, and at the Woodland shop. A few months ago I saw an MFL car sitting there, parked on the back of a semi trailer. Of all the times to not have a camera with me!
Just in case you missed it, the 34 was in my wedding...see this old post.
Mark
The cars were neat!! Two types of streamlined cars, plus some older car that made lots of sounds. (Pullman & St. Louis PCC, plus Peter Witts.)
The next year the 19 line was converted to bus. (ugh!)
By the time I was 10, I was riding all over the city. Streetcars, Trolley Buses and the hated diesel buses.
At the same time I was able to convince my father (who was a "closet railfan") to take me to places like Philadelphia. I got to ride Philly's "Witts" (the 8000's) on the 17 line (Market Street) in 1957.
By the time 1962 arrived, I was hanging out in the carhouses and by 1963, I even got to operate once in a while.
On November 3, 1963 it all came to an end.
Car 7407 pulled into Irvington Carhouse at 6:34 AM and it was all over.
I got involved with the streetcar collection in the 50's, thanks to my father, who would gladly drag his small son to those dark, dirty closed carhouses that were housing the collection as it moved. He even discovered that he and George Nixon had known each other when they were kids. By 1963 the cars were stored in the woods at Lake Roland. By 1966 the Baltimore Streetcar Museum was formed, and I've been a part of it since that day.
--Mark
til next time
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, neither was I, but you gotta do what you gotta do, see the 2nd paragraph here.
Solo on the subways wasn't until I was about nine and walking without crutches (I was in a serious accident when I was seven and it took about three years before I could walk without a really bad limp). And even then that was pretty rare since we didn't live in the City.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Before the last day of school I bought a token at the Delancey Street J M Z station. Then after school I took the M train to Wyckoff avenue and took the L train. It was a beginner's railfan trip. That summer it just took off though, I was going everywhere.
Album: June 29, 2003 - Exchange Place Grand Reopening
First train in and first train out!
Album: June 29, 2003 - SMEE MOD Trip
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Anyone notice the "toliet seat" on 9306? :)
--Mark
No, I'm not sure what you are refering to by "toilet seat." I'll have to look back at my photos.
I am thinking of spending $300-$400 for a camera, but if necessary will go a little higher.
The cameras I see, brag about megapixels. What is the minimum megapixels which will produce reasonable rail pictures, not meant to be blown up to 8"x 10" but possibly printed at 5" x 7"?
How do I determine before buying, the ability of the camera to work in low light without a flash?
How much zoom can I expect to find on a camera in this price range, and is any one better than another in auto focus? Is it possible to override the auto focus when a special effect is wanted?
What is a reasonable number of pictures to be taken without recharging a camera, because of low battery, or storage of images?
Tom
Whoa there! My Toshiba PDR-M71 take 4 AA batteries and I use NiMH batteries and I have gone through 3 sets of batteries in one day! One day! With full LCD usage. I'm talking 250 photos in one day with the camera being on and the LCD in use for 4 hours or more.
Its not being stingy, its being smart. If you're not using zoom or any other special features its really not needed. The only problem is it doesn't cover the full frame, which can be a buisance sometimes. For example, the G3's optical viewfinder is only 80% of the frame, so if it appears that an object is filling 3/4 of the picture, its actually closer to half in the end.
I find I have to rtake occaisonally, not "often". If you use it enough, you learn how to compensate for it.
Some of the most popular and best cameras around the $300-$400 price range include the Canon A70, Olympus C740, and the Olympus C4000 (I STRONGLY recommend these cameras.)
The A70 is a nicely priced camera at $300 and it includes almost every manual control you can think of, including manual shutter speed, manual aperture, manual focus, etc. This is a 3 MP camera with 3x zoom and it can even record sounds!
The C740 is fine quality camera made by olympus which is reasonably priced at $499. The main feature of this camera is the monster 10x (yes, 10x) optical zoom! This camera is a splendid camera with full manual controls and 3 MP resolution.
The C4000 is another quality (and well-valued) camera by Olympus. Nicely priced at $400, it features a 4 MP sensor with 3x optical zoom and full manual controls (you know I crave manual controls...)
I personally own a Olympus C720 and it takes very wonderful pics (with my 8x zoom and all ;-)), it produces 3 MP pics at very high quality but this camera does purple fringes a lot. ( a problem with long-zoom cameras) The C740 is the most updated version of my C720 (now discontinued)
I hope this helps you with the camera shopping. For VERY detailed reviews, visit www.dcresource.com for an in-depth review of every single model in the market ;-)
Hey, that's mine, and I couldn't be happier with it!
What is digital zoom in a camera as opposed to in software such as PhotoShop?
>>> The amount of pictures vary on the type of batteries you are using with your camera and the size of the memory card (they come in the form of CompactFlash, SmartMedia, XD, SD, and MemoryStick.) <<<
Are the memory devices you mentioned interchangeable, or proprietary to its camera? How many photos fit on one memory card? i.e. do I take a month's worth of pictures and store them all on one memory card, or do I carry many memory cards, or do I need to download the card daily to other media?
Two years ago I borrowed a friend's (now obsolete) Sony which recorded directly onto 3 ½" diskettes, but only about 30-35 images fit on each diskette, so I had to carry a pocket full of diskettes (and an extra battery) each day.
Tom
I don't think there's any difference. From what I understand, digital zoom just enlarges the area in the center of the phot, easily done in PS.
<Are the memory devices you mentioned interchangeable, or proprietary to its camera?>
Different manufacturers have embraced different format, so a Sony memory Stick won't work with a Canon. But not everyone uses a different format. I can't help you which is most popular; all my devices (G3, Dell Axim, etc) use CF and everything but the G3 uses SD, so those are what I buy. If you don't have anything else that uses specific cards, its not as great a concern.
I had one of those cameras, the cheap one, and liked it, especially since the floppies could be used in any computer without cables or special software.
Unfortuantly it got dropped once too often, and the FD drive is out of sync with the rest of the computer world. It can record on a disk that it formats, but then that disk cannot be used anywhere. So the camera is useless.
After using a borrowed "toy camera" for a while, I was going to buy the Sony 4.2 MP with the Memory Stick, but that too is out of production, so I got the new 3.2 MP CD-RW camera. It works real well, I can get 600+ VGA shots on a disc or 100+ at a full 3.2MP. I am satisfied with the VGA shots, since all of my work is on the Internet rather than on paper. The battery lasts long enough, and you can buy an extra. Discs at Staples are much cheaper than from Sony. You can use the CD-R or a CD-RW disc. The RW can be re-written over 300 times, but cannot be played back on older CD-ROMs. CD-R can be played back on a CD-ROM.
I'd look for a camera with a BIG LENS. Big Lenses let in more light, allowing a faster shutter speed, and less camera shake. I find I can hold the camera still and take a picture at 1/8th Second.
Elias
Held hostage? I have 2 G3 batteries and I've never had the problem of one dying out in the field. And even if one did, I wouldn't have the problem of both unless I'm a moron and don't keep at least 1 fully charged.
While they may be more expensive a proprietary battery usually gives you a lot more shooting time.
I bought an additional battery (the G3 normally doesn't come with 2 - Brian must have gotten it on special, or Canon screwed up), and it was not expensive. I probably paid for my extra what you paid for your recharables. And Li Ion batteries do last longer than alkaline and NiMH, both in usage time and life. And no "memory" means I can charge them at will instead of waiting for them to die completely.
You can get a pack of four lithiums (try Radio Shack or CompUSA) and leave them in the camera bag until you get to the moment when you discover your NiMHs have just died!
If you want to do low-light photography, stay away from the S230. I don't know what it is, but the CCD they use in it SUCKS in low light. I have compared it to both earlier and later models and the S230 stands out as poor in low light in comparison. In daylight or any well-lit situation it's fine, but not in low light - the grain becomes very pronounced.
I like the Digital Elph series because I like to travel as light as possible. The others aren't HUGE, but they don't fit into my pockets, either.
In that line, I think the S400 is the best right now. The one nice thing about the S230 is that you can do 640x480 video clips, whereas in the S400 your max is 320x240.
They do use a proprietary battery, but I've taken mine on two big vacations and it hasn't been a problem. Unless you're planning to go camping away from civilization, current proprietary battery life should last you a day (I can get hundreds of shots WITH my LCD screen on my S230 - a full day's shooting) on one battery - but I have a backup, too, just in case that I bought on eBay. They charge in about 90 minutes in the included charger (which is a 115/230 volt charger so you just need a plug adapter, not a power adapter for foreign travel).
If you're only printing to 5x7, 2 MP could be OK. Not great, but ok. For me, most of my photos are for web use, so I don't need a lot of megapixels. But they're nice to have sometimes.
The slim, slip in the pocket models I have seen do not appear to have a good way to hold them steady when shooting a picture, compared to the ones with bulge on the right side of the body. Is it just a matter of technique? Also, can that camera be set on a flat surface for an impromptu self portrait?
Tom
Hope this helps
Hot Lunch!
And:
Copyright 2003 Providence Publications, LLC
Providence Journal-Bulletin (Rhode Island)
January 5, 2003, Sunday All Editions
SECTION: News; Pg. B-01
LENGTH: 768 words
HEADLINE: COMING HOME - Friends and family say final farewells to a S. Carolina
policeman from Warwick
BYLINE: ZACHARY R. MIDER Journal Staff Writer
BODY:
NOTE: This page may contain multiple obituaries for the date you've specified.
Police sirens and bagpipes mingled with sobbing yesterday at St. Joseph's
Cemetery, as throngs of police officers gathered to pay final respects to Joseph
John McGarry, 28.
The Warwick native and South Carolina police officer was shot and killed in
the line of duty a week ago.
Although he patrolled the streets of Myrtle Beach, S.C., his death was felt
keenly in Warwick, the city where he grew up and first sought police work. To
many officers here, Joe McGarry was a brother.
Yesterday, some wore black bands over their badges, a sign of grief for a man
who had longed to wear a badge since he was a boy.
"Joseph McGarry was an exceptional policeman -- one of the very best," said
the Rev. Robert L. Marciano, chaplain of the Warwick Police Department, at the
Mass of Christian Burial. "And then, in an instant and without warning, he is
gone."
Father Marciano noted that McGarry had proposed to his sweetheart, Holly
Newman, at midnight Mass on Christmas Eve, just four days before his death.
David M. Kelly, a Warwick police officer who knew McGarry since kindergarten,
read from the Bible's Book of Wisdom: "The just man, though he die early, shall
be at rest."
McGarry was on duty at a Dunkin' Donuts early last Sunday morning when he
recognized a customer as a wanted suspect. As he questioned the man in the
parking lot, a scuffle ensued. The customer shot McGarry in the face, the police
say, then fled and was arrested after a brief pursuit.
The Myrtle Beach police charged Luzenski Allen Cottrell, 25, of South
Carolina, with McGarry's death, and have since charged him with another killing
dating to November.
Officer Mike Gunthinger was with McGarry that night, and he exchanged gunfire
with Cottrell. Yesterday, he was in Rhode Island, honoring a fellow rookie and
former police academy classmate. After McGarry's casket reached the cemetery,
Gunthinger was embraced by Myrtle Beach Chief Warren Gall.
"[McGarry] had a lot to offer our Police Department, and he had a lot to
offer the city," Gall said in an interview. He said McGarry was a standout in
the department, the kind of officer who would spend time with youths and
organize cleanups in the neighborhoods he was assigned to patrol.
He was once nominated for Officer of the Year -- an unusual distinction for
someone with only four years experience, Gall said. He is the first Myrtle Beach
officer killed in the line of duty in recent memory.
With blue lights flashing, a procession perhaps a mile in length escorted
McGarry's casket to St. Gregory the Great Church in Warwick, then to the
cemetery. At each stop, officers from dozens of departments stood together,
silent and at attention in dress uniforms.
Joe McGarry would have appreciated that, those who knew him said. "He was
obsessed with it. He loved being a police officer. He loved all the pomp and
circumstance," said his father, Joseph J. McGarry Jr.
The young officer had even persuaded Chief Gall to create an honor guard
after seeing police ceremonies in Rhode Island. Yesterday, the new Myrtle Beach
honor guard carried McGarry's casket.
McGarry's parents traveled to Myrtle Beach on Wednesday to attend a memorial
service for their only child. About 40 Myrtle Beach officers, and many more from
other South Carolina departments, came to Rhode Island for yesterday's ceremony.
"Those guys from Myrtle Beach, they just embraced my son. I don't know how I
'll ever pay them back," the father said.
He got a hug from Bob Shaw, the father of slain Providence police officer
Steven M. Shaw, killed in the line of duty in 1994. Shaw said that it was not
easy to come to yesterday's service, but he owed a debt because of the legions
of police who honored his son nine years ago.
"It hurts," he said, "but you have to think, they were here for us."
* * *
HONOR GUARD: Police pallbearers transport the coffin of Myrtle Beach, S.C.,
policeman Joseph J. McGarry, a Warwick native, during yesterday's funeral.
* * *
COMRADES: Policeman G. Michael Guthinger, above left, speaks with Myrtle
Beach Police Chief Warren Gall yesterday after burial rites. Below, Anita
McGarry, mother of the slain officer, is comforted by Warwick Patrolman Jason
DeCesare.
* * *
AN OFFICER HONORED: Joseph J. McGarry Jr. comforts his son's fiancee, Holly
Newman, left, and his wife, Anita, at Saint Joseph's Cemetery, in West Warwick,
yesterday. At top, Warwick police Sgt. Michael Higgins plays bagpipes during the
burial of Officer Joseph J. McGarry.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But of course.
To cut time we originally planned to ride it to Westchester Square then transfer for the Bx21, but instead upon approach to Westchester we saw a Bombardier R142 waiting on the track to the yard. Thinking it would go into 6 service we got off and waited for it to come. But it went into the yard and stayed there. With disappointment we were ready to get out of fair control until we spotted a R62 4 train pulling into Zerega Avenue. As a wise decision we stayed. We saw 2 more Bombardier R142's assigned to the 4, 1 Kawasaki R142A assigned to the 4, and one more R62 4 train. Going back all of the R142's and R142A's were assigned as 6 trains and the R62's went out of service. Also we saw 2 very old RTS buses while on the platform, which some of us went gaga over. On the first R62 to bypass the station a motorman flexed his muscles as he posed for the camera. Before we left we saw a train that terminated at Parkchester go up the ramp towards Pelham Bay. As we went to get the Bx21, we saw the next departing bus to be a Clean Air Hybrid-Electric Orion Bus (#6356). The bus took us to the East 180 Street station where all 5 trains were running shuttle. Once a 5 train finally came it was a R142 (As usual) and the inside LED panel said "05190 to Easchester-Dyr". It was finally fixed after a few minutes. As we departed for Dyre Avenue we saw a few redbirds and the 3 train (68xx or 66xx) in Unionport. Our train sped to Dyre Avenue then stayed for a good 5 minutes.
We took a group photo on the rear engine car and headed back to East 180 Street. Upon arriving at East 180 Street, we boarded a 2 train to Times Square. We saw two more redbirds, one the rollsign said 5 to Dyre Avenue and one said 7 to Main Street Flushing. Once we arrived into Times Square, we went downstairs and boarded a 7 local train (Redbird R36 World Fair). We once again left the system at Shea Stadium and walked along the boardwalk between the Corona bus depot and the Corona Yard. We saw a M7, M1 and possibly a M3 pass by the Shea Stadium station. We once again boarded a 7 R62A (With rusting poles) towards Queensboro Plaza. We got off at Queensboro Plaza to catch a N train (We wanted to experience the fastest speed in the system). At first a "hippo" W train came in (which we skipped), and caught a R40 slant N train. The train got up to 62 MPH before we stopped at 59 Street where Lincon departed from the group.. We transferred for the Q diamond R40M at 59th street and rode it to Canal Street. We saw the South walkover wall was taken down and the track ran through there. Before we boarded the train, D train 22 departed from the group. The remaining 4 of us (Me, Shawn, Ozzy and Adam) went to eat lunch at a Chinese restaurant called Wo Hop. After a laughter filled dinner, we boarded a 6 local train at Brooklyn Bridge to see everything was back to normal. We transferred for the 5 R142 at Union Square and rode it until 125 Street. At 59 Street Adam left us to attend to personal things. At 125 street we got on a 4 train and rode it to Bedford Park Blvd to get a good view of the yard. It was mostly hippo R68s and 2 R62 trains waiting to be brought into the underground portion of the yard. We boarded a R142 Bombardier car 1195. Ozzy left at 167 street, then me and Trevor went our separate ways at Grand Central.
Here’s some things that couldn’t make it to the main paragraph
-Proof The R110B is still operating unlike popular beliefs
-Cars 1200-1210 are in at Unionport.
-The Amount of Jokes Passed Between All of Us!
-There are rather funny pictures of tigers on the Bronx Zoo ad biting somone's ass.
Photos will follow later on in the day, as I'm VERY tired!
Peace,
Trevor Logan
TransiTALK
(Trip Report originally typed by SciGuy (Shawn), Corrections made by me)
Peace.
ABDEE
Trevor
(The 9:56 out of 168 yesterday was an R-38 set.)
WHAT!?!?!?!?!?!
I'm trying to find the date of this "old" thread that seems to have been dug up, but this appears new.
What is this about the R110B aka R131 running again?!?!?
One of my favorite trains is running again! Too bad it's all underground. Photos guys, photos. I won't be able to be around the C for a few weeks.......
I can get photos along 8 Av, but I would like to know first that the R-110B will be there. So if anyone lives or works like right next door to a (C) station, and has an unlimited metrocard, it would be cool if they could run down there when the R-110B is scheduled to pass through and then post here if they see it. Then I will make the trek over to 8 Av and get the photo.
Impossible, all Q trains start/end at 57/7.
Proof The R110B is still operating unlike popular beliefs
I'd like to see pics of the partially cannabalized R110B, now that it's an odd six car train. Too bad, if the platforms on the Franklin Ave shuttle were long enough, these cars would be good candidates to use, 3 car sets of 2 trains on that line.
That was a obvious typo. I typed this the at 11 at night. Ive been out for 11 hours, give me a break.
Wow! I didn't realize that trains could go that fast anymore after the 14th St. crash. I'd thought the fastest speed in the system now is around 40-42 MPH. How did you figure that the train was going 62MPH given that the trains have no speedometer? Man, if I could get video from the front (or rear) of a train going at that speed...
Koi
Koi
A lot of good train operators will get it up there, the R32s being the best (from what I've heard from T/Os). Even R46s and R68s can get up to around 55-58MPH. With 32s and 40s, and coming off the Astoria line, 60MPH is hardly a difficult feat.
Wow! I didn't realize that trains could go that fast anymore after the 14th St. crash. I'd thought the fastest speed in the system now is around 40-42 MPH. How did you figure that the train was going 62MPH given that the trains have no speedometer? Man, if I could get video from the front (or rear) of a train going at that speed...
Koi
Washes will be done in two shifts. AM's and Midnights.
Trains will relay at Hunters Point, go up to 39th Beebe, relay again and go to Manhattan via 60th tunnel, relay at 34th, and go to Jamaica Yard from there. N/B trains will take either the 60th or 63rd tunnel depending on conditions.
(I know. I know. I know.)
:-) Andrew
For access to 63rd st connector, the trains will have to use the express track at 57/7.
I doubt on the AM shift that the 7 trains can use 63rd connector, that track is used for Q diamond express trains turning back (the S/B side at 57/7 is for Q local trains.)
The switches at the north end of 57/7 were removed except for the double crossover at the express trail tracks leading to 63rd st tube.
My understanding is that the N/B express tracks connect to both 60th and 63rd Streets.
Before the 63rd st line opened in 1990, there was a switch on both sides from local to express, these were taken out and I don't know why they did it like that.
subfan
subfan
--Mark
Mark
Thesis Project to Alleviate Atlanta's Traffic Woes
Mark
Coney Island became popular, in large part, due to the availability of mass transit, especially the opening of subway lines in the Dual Contracts era. It remained popular until the end of the '50s.
Rockaway Beach, also a resort, never became as popular even though it was serviced by the LIRR until 1950, the the NYCTA in 1956.
What effect did mass transit have on these areas, and why were the results so different?
It'll probably take you somewhat out of the realm of the subway per se, but it should be interesting.
Good luck.
--Mark
The Second Avenue Subway was contemplated as a replacement for the 2nd Avenue El which was torn down in 1942, and the 3rd Avenue El which was torn down in Manhattan in 1955. If it had been built in the late ‘30s as originally planned, how would Manhattan (and the rest of the city) be different than it is today?
Tom
The knucklehead railfans make up a very small percentage of railfans. In fact, these railfans (and busfans; guess we'll call them transit fans) are very small in number, but are extremely active in the craft. They believe that they have rights and that the transit system is their own playground. Most of them know more than the average employee, so some feel that they don't have to respect the orders or wishes of those employees. Finally, knucklehead railfans are oblivious to events that have an effect on a transit system's policies.
Honestly, I understand why it would be "cool" to get the pictures and tell the story. However, I have noticed that workers don't want to talk about their jobs in detail or passenger loads or whatever. The reason I can still get my information is because I demonstrate to them that I already have a body of knowledge on transit and want to sharpen it. Then, there are those transitfans that are ready to document their mistakes and so, they stay FAR AWAY from buffs so that if they do mess up, it won't be on the evening news. If the MTA does such a poor job of informing US of GOs, what do people think the EMPLOYEES go through?
For the record, these web sites ARE watched by transit officials on occasion. Many of the planners have the VERY SAME discussions that we have about certain routes. Transit employees are not paranoid...they are MONITORED. You do not have to break a rule to be approached about your "discussions"...just as photography is legal, but heavily monitored right now. If you want the breaks and the juicy info, we have to prove ourselves responsible enough to handle them. Responsibility means that you ALWAYS know more than you share. It may have also meant slipping that train operator a note so that he wouldn't have to go through the hell of wrong railing and disrupting service...I would have done that. It may mean asking the C/R or T/O BEFORE snapping the picture of the train or carrying around a copy of your web site to show people what you do.
The people we DO have hear are a gold mine and give us information that Transit folks would rather we not know. The reason why more people aren't harassed about their discussions is because the sites are monitored discreetly and the monitors would rather not blow their cover on how many Redbirds are left. However, employees all through the ranks of MTA, NYCDOT, FTA etc. DO NOT want to be caught giving out information that could be used to benefit the transit system. This IS a WIDESPREAD concern and if you are not trying to kickstart your own transit services (me) or you aren't an employee of some agency or transport company, you may not understand it or even see it.
A word to the wise...use your judgment. Your access to the stuff that you REALLY want to know depends on it.
Could have been more diplomatic is a understatement !
In addition, over time he made it clear exactly who he was. To be as outspoken as he was, he should have kept his true identity a secret.
One of Train Dude's problems is that he just had to answer the phone every time it rang. I pick and choose what topics I comment on. There are folks here who are real juveniles. A thoughtful person understands that there is absolutely no point in engaging them, so I don't. I'm talking about posters young in mind vs. age. Those new to the hobby and sometimes young in age do ask questions that some freak out about, but I remember when I was asking some of those same questions, so I don't mind answering them.
Again with the truth!! Everybody is always trying to pass of their own biased opinions as "the truth". TD was an asshole. I have it on good authority that everyone who worked with him thought it was an asshole.
TD did something that really torqued me in that when someone posted something that he thought was incorrect he would call that someone a moron and an idiot for posting such incorrect information and then stop there. He would never go and post his conflicting information so that we might actually LAERN something, he would just invoke his status as "The Great Train Dude" and belittle the poster he didn't agree with. Once a BEGGED him to please explain HOW some person was wrong or to contradict an argument and he outright refused. He said something to the tune of "I am under no obligation to divulge my information". What the hell, you just called someone an idiot forp osting something, but you feel you have to obligation to reveal what the correct information actually is?
Most of the time I believe that TD was just a bluff. When he didn't reveal his information because he didn't have any and when he did it usually showed that he has misunderstood the question being asked. Just about the only thing he was good for MTBF statistics.
1. The knuckleheads will always be with us. Anyone who can only bear to post on a forum where everyone is totally respectful at all times will just not be able to post on forums. Anyone who stops posting to the hundreds of reasonable people here just because they get flamed by one or two rude posters has their own maturity problem. I favor civility but don't expect to always see it.
2. Similarly, you have to assume that when you post info to those whom you respect you will also be passing along that info to those you don't respect. There's no way out of that. If insiders don't want to post because some people here are jerks, it's unrealistic to think the jerks will 100% disappear.
3. I think Train Dude was told by his boss that his next performance review would suffer if he continued to post, not because some people here are jerks. Why do I think that? Becuase of what happened to bryan1945. Bryan made a few ever so slightly injudicious postings and then poof, he announced he could never post again.
Just to straighten the record for anyone interested ...
That raises my opinion of NYCT management to some degree.
bryan1945 worked for a contractor, not for NYCT directly.
Which may have put him in a more precarious position (fewer employee rights, easier to terminate). I am speculating here, of course.
Train Dude isn't posting because he doesn't want to post - pure and simple. His MTA bosses have nothing to do with it.
1854...An African-American schoolteacher named Elizabeth Jennings is thrown off of a Third Avenue streetcar reserved for whites. With the help of Frederic Douglass and the community, she sues the streetcar company and wins, leading to the desegregation of all New York City streetcars.
Peace,
ANDEE
Mark
Hey, some southern states caught up with New York ... just took them another hundred years or so :)
(ain't I a stinker?)
Larry, RedbirdR33
Fred: Things must really be dull out where you live if all you can do is to keep re-hashing the Bill Clinton story.
Republican morality is a unique point of view.
You damn Clinton for what he did with Monica but you ignore the fact that the man who led the fight to impeach him, Henry Hyde, admitted to a "youthful indisgression when he was forty", i.e extra-marital affair. You don't mention Bob Livingstone who was supposed to replace Newt Gingrich until it came to light that he too had had a little on the side. And say what about Bob Packwood, exactly how many women brought charges of sexual harrassment against him?
How can you call down damnation on the Democrats and say not a word against the Republicans for doing the same thing?
I know that you are a student of Lincoln.I am also. Do you recall his famous quote, "A house divided against itself cannot stand." He was actually paraprasing a much older quote
from another great man nearly 1800 years earlier. The other man was the same fellow who said
"Let the one amongst you who is without sin cast the first stone."
Please lets stay on topic. I respect you right to your opinions and do not throw in the occasional jib at the Republicans when I post and I only ask that you do the same. I for one am not ashamed of being a liberal and a card-carrying Democrat and believe as firmly and as fiercely in my political beliefs as you do in yours.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Amtrak running to Grand Central ?
Bill "Newkirk"
AS A RESULT OF A TRANSFORMER EXPLOSION ON WESTCHESTER AVE NEAR THE SHERIDAN XPWY IN THE BRONX, AMTRAK SERVICE IS SUSPENDED IN BOTH DIRECTIONS OUT OF PENN STATION ON THE NEW HAVEN..++ AMTRAK EMPIRE LINE & METRO NORTH LINES ARE NOT AFFECTED
Michael
Washington, DC
Peace,
ANDEE
Incorrect; only third-rail. And Amtrak has no EP-5s to avail of.
Michael
Wash, DC
<a href="http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/ml.asp?Issue=NYS/2003/07/14&ID=Ar00401&Mode=HTML">City Derails Dream of Red Hook Trolley</a>
To get this:
City Derails Dream of Red Hook Trolley
Mark
I spoke to the engineer during a quick break at the restored Phoenicia station. I was told, they have five ex-Lackawanna MU high roof trailer cars, two of which are on the property. One car is undergoing restoration, while the other, renumbered #701, is fully repainted. #701 is painted red with yellow grab rails and a grayish roof. The clerestories for the first time in years are exposed.. Seems the Lacakawanna plated them over if you look at old photos of them.
The clerestories are now restored and look like cut glass in nature. There is also a generator underneath the chassis for interior lighting. The MU aparatus was removed including the front headlight marker light combo. The one with the car numbers on it.
Even though these cars aren't from this area, their classic looks as steam trailers fit right in. To be built in 1917, these cars are in great shape with no rust or rot.
Catskill Mountain Railroad is located on NYS Route 28 about 30 min. or so from NYS Thruway Exit 19. Furthur down Route 28 is the Delaware and Ulster Railride with two open coaches and ex-SEPTA MP-54's painted in NY Central paint. Not correct, but no big deal The DURR runs two excursions out to Halcottsville and Roxbury and to Highmount. Motive power is an ex-Dealware and Hudson chop nose RS-11 in D&H paint. On the trip to Highmount, they let you off if you want to photograph the engine change, which is in perfect sunlight. They also have an ex-BEDT steam engine preserved as wll as other equipment.
For information, these two tourist railroads are on the web:
Delaware and Ulster Railride...... www.durr.org
Catskill Mountain Railroad........ www.catskillmountainrailroad.com
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks for the links!
By the way, the Catskill Mountain Railroad URL should be: www.catskillmtrailroad.com.
Mark
If you tube the "lower Esopus", which is not as rough as the "upper Esopus", your return trip will be on the Catskill Mountain RR. If you tube the "upper Esopus", you'll be taken there aboard a school bus, but on the way down you'll see various remnants of the line when it continued west beyond Phonecia. Also, the tubing is more exciting in the upper part than the lower part (though I suppose you can start on the upper and tube all the way down to the "end" of the lower Esopus.)
Trains run every hour on the hour leaving the "tube exit".
--Mark
So on these tubes, do you have to do anything? I've been whitewater rafting, and there you have to paddle and steer. But on the tube, do you just go with the flow down the river?
If you will rent your tubes from The Town Tinker, and you ride the lower Esopus, you will ride back to the starting point on the Catskill Mountain RR.
I was also told there will be a dam release on Sunday, which will make it even more exciting.
Yes, and VERY COLD!
So on these tubes, do you have to do anything? I've been whitewater rafting, and there you have to paddle and steer. But on the tube, do you just go with the flow down the river?
Generally, you'll need to keep your balance on the rapids, and you might need to kick off rocks on occasion. On calmer parts, you might want to use your arms to navigate to one side of the creek or the other, but that's about it. Otherwise, yeah, you prety much go with the flow.
Absolutely wear a pair of old sneakers. Pool shoes or flip flops won't cut it. You will likely have to do a little walking in the creek in areas that get very shallow. Be sure to put sunscreen on. I recommend taking two pairs of old socks and cutting the ends out of them, and slipping the socks over your elbows and knees, so you don't get friction burns leaning against the rubber tube.
If you ride the upper Esopus, watch for the remnants of the same rail line that went further north (and south to Kingston). There are a couple of abandoned bridges crossing the creek every now and then.
Now that's a railfanning trip :)
--Mark
But of course.
Should you desire more info. don't hesitate to e-mail me.
Mark
R train runs between Whitehall and 95/4th Ave only
W trains from Brooklyn ending at 42nd st/TS, shuttle service in Astoria
Q trains make all local stops in Manhattan to 57/7, no express between Canal and 57/7
G trains from Brooklyn end at Court Square
E trains make all local stops in Queens.
That and the L train not running in Manhattan. Another great weekend for the confused commuter.
Remember the R-via-V GO? This is the same, except I guess the R-via-V is eliminated due to confusion. (Too bad, since it's somewhat useful. It's the E-via-F that should be eliminated due to confusion and uselessness.)
I don't know why the G can't run through, though. Must be more work in Queens, perhaps on the local tracks at QP.
The R is stuck, though -- its alternate route, via 63rd, is blocked by another work zone. Poor planning, no?
Also because of the L train fiasco, the G must be running in both directions normally in Brooklyn, delays may be expected at Court Square because of the additional G trains needed.
So run 300-foot G trains on regular headways between Court Square and Smith-9th, and also run 600-foot specials between Continental and Church, SB via V, NB via G.
How does that sound? Can the SB track at Court Square handle all turning G's at weekend headways? The special could use mostly R crews.
BTW, anybody know if the M this weekend will run any of its usual R-143's?
So G trains can't go through the G.O. track so they must end at Court Square. R trains will merge into the G track and smack into the construction area.
There must be another construction area at 57/7 on the local tracks for the W portion of the closure so R trains are banished north of Whitehall.
For displaced L line riders to use the G train, they will have no access to the Broadway line directly, so they have to go either end (Hoyt or Court Sqaure, go 8th Ave then walk passageway at Times Square), or use the #7 train at 45th-Road/CHS, but you REALLY want to take a chance on the #7 train? Especially when 9 out of 10 Manhattan-bounds will be IMPOSSIBLE to board because of the dumping of passengers from the Astoria shuttle.
Another thing to ponder: I hope there are numerous platform conductors at 6th Ave/BMT 14th st line because to transfer between IRT and IND, you MUST use that platform and it cannot be closed.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Every day after work, when I enter my 6 Av local station, I can be sure that if there isn't a nb train already there, there will be one in like 2 minutes or less. Several times over the last 10 days or so I have come down only to see an (F) or (V) pulling out. But sure enough, when I look down the line, I can already see the headlights of the following train.
Yesterday I timed this phenomenom, and from the time the first train pulled out, it was only 1 minute and 23 seconds till the next train opened its doors. And on top of all this, seats are almost always available.
I know that on paper, other lines should have shorter headways and more frequency, but based on my limited observations, it seems the 6 Av Local, during this specific time period, has all the others beat.
Additionally, this line is fast, runs equipment that is usually nice and cool in the summer, and, well, has the (V), which is one of the best kept secrets of the system.
So there, I've finally said it. I think about this every day after work, and now I finally remembered to post it. Do you agree with me? Do you think your line has better service during the weekday PM peak period? If so, tell us about it. Thanks.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
As if you didn't have to wait long enough for the F train (a real problem) now you have to wiat for 2 and sometimes 3 V trains to pass before waiting for the F. It really stinks.
The V never and I mean never has very many people on it below 14th street. it is merely taking up valuable track space.
I understand the V is an option for Queens Riders but why should everyone in Brooklyn Suffer for that.
Why not send the V through to brooklyn? They could send it through on the Culver Express track and then both queens and brooklyn would benefit.
LOL. The F runs at a very short headway, shorter than just about every other line.
The V never and I mean never has very many people on it below 14th street. it is merely taking up valuable track space.
There's no other place to turn it, and if there was the delays would simply move to that location.
Why not send the V through to brooklyn? They could send it through on the Culver Express track and then both queens and brooklyn would benefit.
That's a future plan.
Conclusion: You're whining and you're on drugs...:0)
"Why not send the V through to brooklyn? They could send it through on the Culver Express track and then both queens and brooklyn would benefit."
I believe that is going to be implemented. It is connected to the reconstruction of the Bergen interlocking. If I recall correctly, this will allow F trains to use the express track in Brooklyn. The V can then be routed as you say, and, indeed, it will be a very positive development.
I encourage you to write to MTA and elected officials to push for implementation of this ASAP.
As if you didn't have to wait long enough for the F train (a real problem) now you have to wiat for 2 and sometimes 3 V trains to pass before waiting for the F. It really stinks.
The V never and I mean never has very many people on it below 14th street. it is merely taking up valuable track space.
Are you claiming there are fewer F trains to Brooklyn now than before the V was instituted? My understanding is that there were 14 F tph before the V was there, and still are.
If the V is useful to 14th St (which it is), then turning it at 2nd Ave is a relatively small amount of distance at low utilization. Consider the Sea Beach, the Dyre, and many other lines which have low utilization for many many stops before their terminal.
subfan
Once again the F must wait for the V.
If you start going further afield than midtown, they tend to skip stations (sometimes the station I need) to make up lost time: 1s and 6s skip stations south of 14th, Fs skip stations south of W 4th.
The Broadway trunk will have a new branch when the first operable segment of the Second Av Subway opens. It will also add a transfer station (63rd Street, transfer to the F).
8th avenue local service is great. Unless you need to go to brooklyn. Then, you should just get the first train that comes and take it to an express stop. In the Peak direction (to Brooklyn) the A is scheduled to come more than 2x as frequent as the C.
Here is the group...(From Right to left, in the background you have D Train, then MDT Route (Ozzy), Boliqua (Adam), SciGuy (Shawn), and R30 (Lincoln), I was behind the camera).
Due to some screw up on the Lexington Avenue line, wierd stuff was sent up the Pelham line, here you have Bombardier R142 #6695 from the 5, Kawasaki R62 #1420 from the 4 and Kawasaki R142A #7690 from 4 Line at Westchester Square.
Here is the screwed up sign we saw on a 5 Line R142.
Here is a view of the Broadway Express Line from the window of a Clean R40M window on the Q (How Rare!)
This was the extremely funny ad we found today.
This was the last car ridden by the last two left on the trip, (Trevor & Shawn)
Of course there is other photos, but these were some of the key points of the day. The R110B photos are slides and I don't have a slide scanner, so I'm gonna run the B&H at some point and have them placed on disk!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
TransiTALK
Chuck Greene
Ok, for the benefit of me, and anyone who wants to be like me, we need to do this on a SUNDAY!!!!!!!!
For the past two years it has just been Greenberger and I that go railfanning together on Sundays, along with an occasional additional SubTalker like Chris or Mike or Lincoln. But since there now seems to be an interest in actually RIDING the subway, versus just arguing about it all day on SubTalk, I'd really like it if we did some more group trips.
Thankfully, my AIM initiative has led to a core group of up to 12 SubTalkers that chat live almost every night. It was from this chat that the "SubChat" trip of 7/15/03 came to be. That is a great first step! And Jersey Mike's PJ trip this Saturday is also another great example of SubTalkers finally getting together.
So let's expand upon all of threse recent successes. If you want to join in, the first (but only optional) step would be to email me your AIM screen name so that you can be part of the SubChats. Next, if you so wish, please open up your future railfan trips to all of SubTalk. I promise you 50 poeple won't show up, but a few will, and those few will benefit greatly from your kindness.
From the amount of whacky stuff that happened during yesterday's trip, I have a feeling that whenever SubTalkers railfan together, it will end up being very worthwhile in terms of sights, rides, photos, and fun.
Well looking at this, that some can make it on a day other than weekends (I'm only off Tuesday/Wednesday), I'm willing to get together a few trips.
You've got my S/N already dude, so try to catch me tonight.
Yes, I do have it, but I've never seen you online. Not once in over a week. Maybe I have it wrong? Please email it to me again. Thanks.
Jimmy
Jimmy
Cool photos. I do like to see people photos as well as the trains!
One of these days (like December), I’m going to get a weekend off, so I can go railfan too!
John
Chaohwa
Hell, just to save time, just put my handle in your Killfile like every other intelligent poster on the board.
"I wonder what would happen if i put the ketchup packets between the doors."
Have just returned to the UK following my trip to NYC.
Spent quite a bit of time riding the subway - and let me tell you I think it's a most impressive system - wish we had express tracks in London - I was well pleased riding in from JFK when we started zipping thru stations in Broolyn, saved a lot of time.
Managed also to get to ride a 'Redbird' on the #7, those subway cars simply ooze out charachter they kind of remind of the 1938 tube stock from London in a way - these too were also painted red.
Thank you New York - I will be back for more.
Petethefeet - London.
Glad you liked the speed, riding in from JFK, passing local stations
in Brooklyn. Reminds me of my one and only Train [From] The Plane ride
on Saturday June 2 1984. You would have gotten into Manhattan even
faster had the abandoned Rockaway Branch of the Long Island Railroad
still been in service.
Glad, too, that you liked your # 7 line Redbird ride.I've seen images of[current?]London tube stock under"newest images" on nycsubway.org.
A few years ago I saw an exhibit on the London underground at the
NYC Transit Museum store in Grand Central Station. Very enjoyable and interesting, particularly the system map, and the mention of the
large number of women employed by the system, beginning in the 1930's.
Interesting how London and the borough of Queens in NYC have place
names in common, like Kew Gardens and Richmond [Hill?].
You're welcome to New York, and please come back for more !
Simon
Swindon UK
I am a native NYC railfan, fairly new to SubTalk. Thank you for your
recent (2002?) Severn Valley Railway photos. I showed them to my son,
because he was and is a big Thomas The Tank Engine fan, and I wanted
him to see what seemed to be a real-life, working, and present-day
version of the Rev. Awdrey's fictional Sodor Island Railway. He saw
enough similarities to make his viewing of the images worthwhile.
Thanks again, and please keep up your fine photography.
--Mark
I am glad you enjoyed your visit to NYC and your time riding the subway.
The Transit Museum will be reopening in September 2003 so the next time come over you will be able to see it.
BTW - don't let the general public see your comments on riding the train from JFK thorugh Brooklyn. That would put a damper on the fight to get a better rail link to the airport.
And for all you regular and lurking non-U.S. Subfans, this is the time to visit! The dollar is low and Sterling and the Euro are high. Why, it practically makes a fun pass free!!! ;-)
The biggest problem with installing air conditioning is that the condensers need to go somewhere outside the climate-controlled region. That usually means outside and on somebody else's property, and there's just not enough space or money for that, considering the sizes of the systems in question.
It works in Grand Central because of who is upstairs.
Mark
This report is only preliminary and a final report from NTSB and FRA will not be out for several months.
I was a passenger on this train riding in the first car, and monitoring the Amtrak and NJT radio frequency. Virtually the entire crew was off the extra board. I had seen the engineer before, but never the conductor. The hot box detector near Edison did indeed trip. We were told by CTEC to stop the train and inspect. The conductor, who was in the first car, ran back and spent approx 5 minutes on the ground looking at the suspect car. He radioed the engineer
that he found nothing wrong. Engineer radioed CTEC reporting all was OK and was cleared to proceed. Total time on the stop - 12 minutes.
From the first car, the derailment felt like a sudden lurch and stop, clearly an emergency application. My estimate of speed at time or derailment: about 30 mph. No announcments whatsoever from crew to pasengers for about 10 minutes. Meanwhile, the conductor was running to the rear. A Westbound radioed CTEC that 3 cars appeared to be on the ground and were leaning. That was the first info CTEC had of problem. They shut the rr down at that point. First plan was to have all passengers move to rear of train and exit. At that point, nobody had been told anything except to move to rear and exit. No details of problem. After 10 more minutes, and after discussion between crew and CTEC, they decided to exit pasengers to the front, as a rescue train would come against traffic on Track 2, pulling up to train and boarding passengers. Meanwhile, the exiting passengers at the fron decided to walk toward Secaucus. No crew on the ground giving directions. About 200 passengers walked the 1/2 mile to Secaucus, while the rest stayed behind near the train. The rescue train (8 comets) loaded first at Secaucus, then backed toward the disabled Arros to pick up the balance of the passengers. That part took nearly an hour, as they were loading under difficult conditions from only a couple spots, and the crew kept asking passengers in the train to move to the front to make room.
Through all of this, the crew never made any explanatory announcements or kept the pasengers informed what happended or what was going on. If I hadn't been monitoring 161.01, I would have been clueless.
Here is another NJT worker defending the crew.
No, we are required to carry one, a 200 degree fairenheght one. And your description is pretty much dead on of a templestick.
Thebigc is absolutely right, Its not easy crawling under there, and checking all these different bearings in that car and the surrounding cars. All the while, you know that depending on where you are at, you have Sect A, Dock, Union, CTEC 8 or 7 up your butt to hurry up, delaying probably several trains behind you, cranky passengers because the train had to stop, and they are gonna be late, and bosses in NY or Trenton or wherever you are going pounding you as to why the train was late, and making other trains late.
Even though the cause may be obvoius (the wheel falling off) don't jump to conclusions as to why too quickly. They may have checked everything and everything was fine in Edison. They may have had a faulty templestick, maybe it did overheat that much in the half hour from there to the time of the wreck. Maybe there was a pre-existing crack in the wheel or axle and it wasn't actually the journal that set off the detector. Who knows?
Unfortunately, the crew is guilty until proven innocent, but thats the way it is on the RR......
The train activated the HBD in Edison while on its way east. This detector is an office readout, not a radio alarm type. When it is activated, the train dispatcher will contact the train and inform them of which axle tripped the detector, and north or south side. The crew would then have to inspect the bearing on that axle to determine if it was in fact overheated. To do so one would have to crawl under the car and mark the bearing with a 200 degree F tempilstik. If it melted, the bearing would be considered to have overheated, and the car would need to be set out. If the mark did not melt, which the crew must be claiming if they say they did their job properly, then the two cars ahead and behind the car that was inspected must be checked. Now during this time, CETC-8 (Its pronuonced see-tek, but it is spelled that way) would be getting more and more annoyed as trains would be starting to build up behind the stopped train. This was rush hour dont forget. So is it possible that the crew did a quick job, if they did at all, so as to get the train moving again? Maybe. If that was the case could it be they did so to avoid harrasment from management for delaying their train and others while they insured the saftey of their train? Probably. One other point. If the bearing had failed when the Edision detector got it, when the crew inspected it, it would have been obvious before they even got the tempilstik out. The bearing would have been almost too hot to even put your hand near.
Now, another, and rather important point. It has long been known that modern NFL (No Field Lubrication) bearings have one major drawback. They can and do go from fine to failed and burned off in as little as 10 miles. Several years ago, a Conrail train suffered the same type of overheated and failed bearing problem after having traveled about 20 miles, and about half a mile from the first hotbox detector. Most freight railroads space hotbox detectors about 10-20 miles apart, and there are still numerous derailments caused by a bearing that overheats and fails between detectors. My point in all this is that it is entirely possible that the bearing did not actually begin to fail until Linden (10 miles from where the wheel was found). Now, having said that, when a bearing fails, it does not go quiet into that good night. It makes a very loud noise that would make it obvious to anyone that something isnt right. The train stopped at Newark. The crew would have had to walk through the train to collect tickets. The bearing would have been grinding loudly as they did so, and had they been properly trained by NJT, they should have noticed it noise for what it was and stopped the train. As it was, if they did notice it, they probably assumed it was just another noise that the poorly maintained equipment makes, if they notied it at all.
Finally, another train had tripped the HBD at Edison last Friday. After 37 minutes, the crew was unable to find any defects, and proceded. Im sure that NJT management was waiting for them to tell them its ok that the train was late, because they want the crew to be sure there are no defects before proceeding. If you believe that, I have a bridge I would like to sell you. I dont know if they were questioned about that delay, although I imagine they would be. With that in the minds of the crew of 3920, and the fact that the detector had been wrong just three days before in the minds of the dispatcher and management, could they have done a quick inspection, instead of a through one? We may never know, but if the result of the investigation comes down as human error, keep in mind how wide the error probably is.
I am not commenting on whether they did the right or wrong thing, I only posted this information as reported by a NYC television station via. their web site.
Thanks,
Flushing7
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Now I know the Shuttle can't be that bad.
I'm sorry, but have you been living UNDER A ROCK? Try reading this: Restricted Areas and Activities. Of course, this only applies to the subway. But in any event, on Sunday, you'll be on a NJ Transit train.
If you have any questions, feel free to email me.
13 R-33 Singles
9308*
9309*
9310
9312
9313
9314
9316*
9317*
9319
9322*
9324*
9326*
9327
*=GOH-II specs.
130 GE WF R-36 Pairs
9560/9561
9564/9565
9568/9569
9572/9573
9574/9575
9576/9577
9578/9579
9582/9583
9584/9585
9586/9587
9588/9589
9590/9591
9592/9593
9594/9595
9596/9597
9598/9599
9602/9603
9608/9609
9610/9611
9612/9613
9614/9615
9616/9617
9618/9619
9620/9621
9624/9625
9646/9647
9648/9649
9650/9651
9652/9653
9654/9655
9662/9663
9666/9667
9668/9669
9670/9671
9672/9673
9674/9675
9676/9677
9678/9679
9682/9683
9684/9685
9686/9687
9688/9689
9694/9695
9696/9697
9702/9703
9706/9707
9708/9709
9710/9711
9712/9713
9714/9715
9716/9717
9718/9719
9720/9721
9732/9733
9734/9735
9738/9739
9742/9743
9746/9747
9748/9749
9752/9753
9754/9755
9762/9763
9764/9765
9768/9769
143 total, or just 13 trainsets.
Keep this check list handy, its getting smaller by the day.
Tick, tock....
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@ao.com)
Work Service
9328
9329
9330
9331
9332
9333
Scrapped:
9321
Museum:
9306
So what happened to these cars:?
9307
9311*
9315*
9318
9320
9323
9325*
9334-9345
In work service as well.
-Stef
A/K/A those from the first IRT SMEE trip June 2003.
Either they're scrapped or they're in work service.
Work service, all of them. 9321 is the only R-33WF scrapped.
Unlucky 13 trainsets and the last summer for these Redbirds before they all are Reefbirds.
An ugly pre-Christmas present, no more RF window on the entire IRT except for an occassional R62A single.
GOH-II refers to technical conversion from WH to GE control and various other changes being made at 207 Street Shops.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Mark
Chuck Greene
Mark
Mark
I tried to search the threads on this, but came up empty, so forgive me if it's old news.
I don't remember the exact readings on the signs but I can assure it is not NYC destinations.
If and when the commerical comes on again I shall try to write down what the signs say.
UNION STATION
BROAD ST
MARKET SQR (?)
and a few other destinations similar to those of the Philly system.
Chuck Greene
Mark
But I was in the Subway® in Hauppauge, LI and stopped to look at the maps there. The ones I saw (not like I remembered) were clearly Hagstrom maps of part of Manhattan, about 1965 or so, though I couldn't find a copyright or attribution.
Anyone look in their local shops lately?
-- Ed Sachs
Also, the wallpaper shows a station at Park Avenue on the Broadway el, which I'm guessing was removed when the el was rebuilt.
Interestingly, I first noticed it when I was eating at the Subway on Broadway & Park Avenue :). Naturally, I immediately looked for a trace of the station; an oddly placed girder across Ellery Street might be one artifact, but that's it. When the els were "rebuilt," were stiffening memebers added to the old structure, or was the thing really built up from scratch?
BTW, I can't find any information on "Covert Ave". Was that the former name of Seneca Ave, or was the ground level station here (prior to 1916) located elsewhere?
Mark
I guess in places where there is no local subway, you could have different walls with different themes, a New York wall adjacent to a DC Metro wall, etc.
Mark
Where is Corona? Perhaps an LA MTA or BART theme would work.
Mark
An interesting idea, but the antithesis of franchising. The whole idea is to make the stores look as much alike as possible so people going into them will expect the same menu and same quality in each of them. Would it have any meaning at all to have a BMT sandwich if the decor is MBTA?
Tom
Mark
I'm going to be right around there tomorrow. Guess I'll have to stop in the Subway to see.
- Seneca Ave (M) had another, older name
- Evergreen Ave on the Myrtle Ave el (north of Broadway) was there
- Park Ave on the Broadway el (between Myrtle and Flushing) was there
- Consumer's Park on the Franklin Shuttle was there
The map also had all IND lines prior to 1940, long after the above stations were gone. So it's not a reproduction of an official map.
No, it's a composite of reproductions of several official maps from different time periods. It's been posted here before that the wallpaper was specially made for, and is ©, Doctors' Associates, Subway's parent company.
Next time I'm in a different Subway shop I'll take another look.
:-P
Since I doubt the owners of Subway relish the idea of an unannounced visit by the MTA legal department, I think it is reasonable to assume the maps they use are more than 50 years old.
One is on the concourse of the passenger rail station, which is kind of appropriate.
NY Daily News story here
URL: http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/101339p-91598c.html
I can understand not wanting to call it "World Trade Center," but I find it depressing that a name equated with razzing the French and America playing bully has been chosen. Please excuse my comment if it seems "unpatriotic", that's not my intent and maybe I should just keep my big mouth shut. But "Freedom Tower" just hits ALL the wrong notes. Especially since I'll be one of those PAYING for it. :(
I just think that this particular name is ILL conceived and projects an image for America that lacks WISDOM. We're not an isolated nation anymore and thumbing our noses with a name like that doesn't put across what America SHOULD present to the rest of the world - a "shining light" and not a "schoolyard bully." :(
Perhaps you should take a look at the site. It is not an empty hole in the ground even as we speak.
In the meantime, let him know that, just because you don't throw yourself into the path of an LIRR train out of despair for New York, that doesn't mean you don't like Peter.
:0)
Also, for those people who are foreigners, the building will not have a height of 1776, but rather of 541. How is 541 offensive?
Besides, those people work in America, nobody forced them here, it is the values that the year 1776 stands for that brought these people to America (or the economic oppurtunity that comes from it). It these people don't like America's values, they don't belong here and they should just go home to their respective piece of shit countries. For those people who were here on business and died, they're probably either from a place which benefited from the enlightened thought that came out of Pennsylvania's State House 227 years ago or they come from places which don't have it and want it. Anybody who doesn't want democracy is an idiot.
Oh, and I stand by my "piece of shit countries" comment, it doesn't apply to all countries. If immigrants home countries were such great places, they wouldn't strive to come here. My parents were immigrants, I have no compunction against calling the (former) USSR a (former) piece of shit.
It would appear that in the year 541 AD the first outbreak of the plague occured. It ravaged Europe, as well as Northern Africa and Western Asia, claiming some 50-60 percent of the population in Europe at the time. Of course on the seesaw scale of our myopic view of history somehow 10 million, and more likely many more, deaths 1500 years ago somehow pales in comparison to 2050 deaths two years ago.
I don't care if the damn thing is measured as 1220 cubits, 107 rods, or 3.7 e-9 astronomical units, it's too damn short! That cute little 1776 foot tower will stand for all of a year before some 1800 foot tower rises up in some heretofor unheard of Asian commerical center, knocking our cute little tourist trap right off the top. We could at least cut the stupid numerical symbolism garbage about having to have it be 1776 feet tall, it'll be that tall maybe 1% of it's life time, what with winds and metal fatigue and such. The least we could do is push it another 300 feet and try to be the first across 2000, rather than wallowing some 300 feet short of a very real goal. An even better goal would be 804 meters, or 2640 feet, the first tower to break a half mile would certainly be an accomplishment well worth striving for, despite the fact that it would drive the tower to be almost double the original height. Heck, the lands all there, and so long as somebody can shut the Necrocrats up about the use of the tower sites, the whole superblock could be used to bring Frank Lloyd Wright's Mile High tower to life. Certainly a respectable aspect ratio could be maintained going up, and with the use of LIM Elevators and such the problems of moving people that plagued his first designs could be circumvented, if not avoided entirely.
Really the only other problem I have with the building is the friggin stupid name. Freedom Tower, you might as well scream to every person in America to never forget 9/11. Do we really want to drag that around with us forever? It's one thing to remember the people who lost their lives, but it's quite another thing to make those lost lives become a burden upon your life, thats unhealthy. At this point I'd prefer it become the Chase-Manhattan WTC building instead of the "Freedom Tower". It'd at least be honest, since it's inevitable that the people running the 'Freedom Tower' would try to subvert their patriotic appelation in the name of profits, so why not just call a spade a spade now and get the some money for the construction of the building from whatever bank steps up to sponsor it?
Also, is it just me or does it seem odd to name a building being built in a time of decreasing personal freedom the 'Freedom Tower'. Kind of like naming a Works Progress Administration dam after the president largely responsible for the recession that neccessitated the WPA, a carrier after a president who was largely against the founding of a strong Navy, or an international airport after a president who fired all the air traffic controllers.
But thats about it, I don't mind the designs I'm seeing for the WTC site, most of the more bizarre one's will probably get weeded out anyway, leaving the slightly more conventional ones. If they could just make it at the very least 300 feet taller, and give it a better name, then I, along with more than a few other people I suspect, would be happy with it.
Had Congress not so frequently desecrated the word "Freedom" with such posturing and jingoism, it might be a different story. But the word "Freedom" has been cheapened so by our lawgivers, and has been turned into an "in your face, BRING IT ON!" pile of manure. Damned shame. But the connotation "Freedom" has been given lately is NOT what new York City wants to project to the rest of the world. Maybe WACO, but NOT New York, capital of the WORLD. :(
Reagan National does not have international flights.
Sorta like the JOE BRUNO BASEBALL STADIUM at Hudson Valley Community College (next to the Joe Bruno Palladium and the Joe Bruno Stadium Joe Bruno Memorial carpark) ... but you at least EXPECT that from low rent state sausagepackers. Yeah, you're right. (sigh)
I had forgotten that Houston is now the George Bush international airport, with suitably schmaltzy photos of George and Barbie doing their local good works. Maybe I qualify for half a runway or something.
I think that bringing in Donald Trump and calling it the "World Trump Center" would be better than "Freedom Tower."
So this business about 1776 feet being offensive is ignorant hogwash.
Just my two tokens worth....
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
has an awesome rendering of just what you're talking about. The plaza is filled in to street level, with corpo-dreck instead of the original proposal. I'm not a monument fan, but it does help focus on why Liebeskind tried to keep the "bathtub" open to its full depth.
They don't even have to look like the original twin towers or be the tallest buildings! As long as they're taller than any other lower manhattan buildings and they're twin towers.
We can't bring back the past. But what will be built will be magnificent. And new. And striking. And very much New York.
If they're only going to build one building, it should have space up to 100 floors. Hell, build it as strong as the Empire State Building so it won't sway under normal wind conditions. Do SOMETHING great. putting a metal pole on top of a building is not 'great'.
Remember, too, that several office towers will be built - but they will be at the 60 or 70 floor height.
Yes, but nothng around it is even 20 stories high. On the other hand, lower manhattan has a few buildings that will be taller than the real building being constructed there. (not including the spire).
I'm not saying that spires aren't nice. The Chrysler building's spire is perhaps the most attractive building crown in the WORLD. But this is strapping a spire onto a building where the spire will be 2x as tall as the building itself. Build some buildings where the actual interior space ends around the 1000' mark.
Maybe I'm confusing something. How many floors is 'freedom tower' supposed to have? How high will the floors reach?
http://www.civic-alliance.org/home.html
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The view will still be very nice; it just won't reach as far as from the top of the twin towers.
URL: http://www.mta.info/mta/news/releases03/030716.htm
http://www.njtransit.com/sf_train_schedules_station_parking.jsp has NJT station parking info. Probably if he goes a few stops out from Hoboken there should be free weekend parking.
What about parking at Liberty State Park and taking the HBLR?
I could take the subway, but it's a nuisance. Coming home, I'd have to ride all the way north to 33rd Street on PATH, then completely backtrack southbound on the Q, ride THROUGH Lower Manhattan and then local in Brooklyn only to then do what: Get into my car and drive home. It just doesn't make sense. Going there would be the exact opposite.
If it was a weekday, or PATH-WTC was already open, I wouldn't hesitate using the subway.
Googling hoboken + "municipal parking" gives some hints for parking in Hoboken.
There is also a garage at Newport and a very reasonable one (by Manhattan standards) at the W Houston St pier.
Pretend that you're going there to shop, then quietly walk through the mall, and take either the HBLR, or the PATH, for one stop. I'd double check when the mall closes on Saturday's, the return trip is scheduled to arrive at Hoboken at 7:20PM, but you have to account for the unexpected.
Date: Friday July 18
Meeting place will be the Union Turnpike station. We will meet near the 10-car marker at the Manhattanbound platform.
Time yet to be determined but 11AM possibly, but I'll have to double check with my friend. If not 11AM, then 1130 to 1200. Once I get more info, I'll provide it for you.
We'll probably hang around the Queens Blvd IND in the hopes of getting a chance to see some Redbirds and R62As from Corona go along QB to get access to JAM's car wash. We'll also make a stop at 45 Road - Court House Square to track the progress of "THE HOLE." (A hole is developing on one of the platforms at 45th Rd so we're going out to see if it has been patched up). A trip on the Brooklyn IRT might also be included, if time permits.
Anybody with questions can either reply to this post or send me an email.
I'll provide you all with updates and news regarding the trip.
Hope to see some of you on Friday. Just look for the tall Asian guy with the carolina blue shirt, navy blue shorts, navy blue/carolina blue Nike Shox and carolina blue/navy blue Houston Astros cap.
Hello to all Subtalkers!
Things here are a little more orderly than that "other" board. ;-)
Their web site doesn't say this anywhere, I find this kind dumb since this is the station with the lowest ridership in the entire system. Why not try to promote it??
I only found out about it by riding the Blue Line the last few days and seeing the customer notices in trains, stations, and big banners announcing it near the new station.
This is strange because the CTA usually unvails a new station on a Monday so they have the entire weekend while the branch is out of service to make sure the station is ready to open.
When I rode by earlier today they already had the fare equipment in place at the new Kostner entrance and the high-barier entrance in place from Kildare.
I think what they did is remove the fare-collection equipment and entrance from the Kildare entrance to the temporary Pulaski Kildare station. I also noticed today a sign at that station where the Kildare exit used to be saying emergency exit only. Aparently as of tomorrow this station will become just temporary Pulaski. The new Pulaski station still appears to have a lot of work to go. On the other hand the new 54th/Cermak station has appeared to be complete for the last 2 weeks and I wonder when it will open. The lights have been on at night, the station signs are up, and the park-n-ride lot it paved and numbered.
I am also interested in urban geography, and I could do a thesis on a specific region of the city (Bronx) and research the amount of ridership the middle, upper, and lower classes of income and compare them.
Robert
1241-1245 were at NYCT Linden on July 15.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Robert
Robert
Speaking of sunkbirds, on my way upstate this past Sunday, I saw a barge loaded with redbirds at 207th St. Expect another voyage soon.
Bill "Newkirk"
Also, I took this photograph at Metro Center. Comments are welcome.
Do these car look like they are being shipped and received out of Alexandria Yard (C99) like the Rohr cars were when they were upgraded to AC?
The reason I ask is when the Rohr cars were upgraded a number of times I saw the cars loaded aboard highway lowboy trailers parked on Blue Stone Drive outside the gates of the yard.
This would give one a good chance to inspect up close and photograph the under carriage of the cars in the light of day. I did get a chance to inspect the upgraded Rohr car when they were on the trailers. Unfortunately at that time I had no camera to take pictures.
John
BTW, did I get the numbers right?
That would leave me to believe the shipper is delivering them to Alexandria Yard (C99) the same way the Rohr cars were delivered.
BTW, did I get the numbers right?
The letter number codes identify train control rooms not just station. The letter number code system is technically assigned to the (RTU) Remote Terminal Unit in the stations train control room or the way side train control room between stations and in yards. The RTU is the data link interface between the way side train control room and the central control room at WMATA headquarters.
Number counting down from 99 are assigned to yards, junction and yard leads. Examples; Alexandria Yard (C99), D and G Junction (D98) and Alexandria Yard lead (C98). Number counting up from 1 are assigned to main line RTUs starting from the geographic centers of the system. Examples; Metro Center (A01, C01), Gallery Place (B01, F01), Largo Town Center, (G05) Potomac Avenue (D07) and Grosvenor (A11).
Metro Center is the geographic center for the A, B, C, D, G, J and K routes. Gallery Place is the geographic center for the E, F and L routes.
There are 2 main line RTUs that do not control trackage through station platforms C11 and J01. C11 controls the trackage between National Airport (C10) Braddock Road (C12). The C11 RTU is in the traction power substation building on the west side of the main line behind the Potomac Yard shopping center. When and if the Potomac Yard station is built it will be identified as C11.
J01 controls the main line trackage between the west end of Alexandria Yard lead (C98) and Van Dorn Street (J02). The RTU J01 is located in the traction power tie breaker building at the west end of the Alexandria Yard lead. Early plans of the system showed a future station just west of Blue Stone Drive/South Quaker Lane. (See map in the metrorail exhibit at the National Capitol Trolley Museum). If this station were ever to be built it would be J01.
Now here is the $64.00 question. What letter number code will be assigned to the New York Avenue infill station now under construction? The trackage today in the area of this future station is controlled by Union Station (B03) and Brentwood Yard (B99). I and some one in side WMATA discussed this about 3 years ago and came to no conclusion. We did conclude that is highly unlikely that WMATA will change the letter number codes on the B Route stations north of Union Station (B03) to maintain continuity with standard RTU identifying practice that has been used in the past. My best guess is WMATA will make an exception to standard RTU identifying practice and call it B97.
John
P.S. You now have the answers to one or more of the question on the next WMATA metrorail Quiz.
Most of the folks posting here don’t know a quarter of what I know about this railroad. I have walked roughly 40% of the tunnels during construction and road my bicycle through the Potomac River tunnels not once but many times. I have got some handle time on a set of Rohr cars back in the 1970s. I have been in many places in most of the stations that the public never sees and or doesn’t even know exist. I have over 4,000 pages construction drawings of various stations in DC and Virginia. I have a number of technical document that are not generally available to the public. . . .
John
PS, I am not or have ever been on the WMATA payroll.
BTW, if you ever get a shot of a CAF on the Orange Line, post it up! Remember, the flipdot signs used their standard yellowish green for the Yellow Line color... gotta wonder if they'll use the LED standard orange for the Orange Line.
For that matter, if you get a shot of a CAF on the Yellow Line, post it up! And ESPECIALLY if you get a shot of one on the Red!
Compare that to the yellow you see on a different train, I know I am not providing the best possible example:
I have not seen any CAFs on Orange but from what I understand, they use the same color LED that is used on Yellow:
And finally, on SubTalk DC 2, we rode a CAF on the Yellow Line from Huntington to L'Enfant Plaza. No CAF cars are assigned to the Red Line, yet.
Orange on LED AND Yellow on LED using the standard orange LED color? I can understand orange, but is WMATA having problems using the color yellow? Is it too bright on an LED display to show without hurting some eyes? The orange train and the Yellow train you showed with the LED signs... they both seem to use no variant of color from the standard orange LED bulb color, unlike those on the Green and Blue lines.
BTW, a game of NAME THAT PICTURE!!!
#1: July 4th train, probably at Smithsonian or L'Enfant Plaza (why else would an Orange train be going to Addison Road?)
#2: Temporary center track operations on a southbound Yellow Line train at National Airport
#3: Gotta be Smithsonian... July 4th, this time the Orange Line is bound for Franconia-Springfield... wish I was there... did anybody boo at the trains, like they did on July 4th, 1998?
#4: Huntington, on a CAF trip. Where else does the Yellow Line have an outdoor island platform? I said ONE, National Airport doesn't count.
#5: L'Enfant Plaza... how do YOU manage to not get trampled standing there? I've still got bruises...
As for your name that picture game:
1. It was a July 4th train but I took the picture at Rosslyn
2. Correct
3. Smithsonian has side platforms and there are no trains from Smithsonian to Franconia-Springfield on July 4th. The yellow line runs from F/S to Mount Vernon Square via the Fenwick Bridge. That was a yellow line train at Archives
4. Correct but Braddock Road and King Street also have single, island platforms and are very much outdoors.
5. Correct. When I took that picture, 3 other people out of the STDC group were taking pictures too, and it was at the north end of the station which is not nearly as busy.
If no CAF cars, have any rehabbed Breda/Rohr cars been added to the Red Line?
No rehabbed Bredas are in service at this time.
The way the CAF cars were assigned was to first make sure all lines had 6 car trains during rush hour. The Red Line already has 6 car trains on every train during rush hour, the only time 4 car trains show up is when they are short cars due to maintenance. As a result, the Red Line gets its CAFs last. These 40 something cars will ensure that the Red Line always is 6 cars during rush and might allow for more weekday midday and weekend 6 car trains. Very few eight car trains are possible but probably not likely or common until the 6000 or 7000 Series cars arrive.
I saw on Fox 5 a few weeks ago that Metro will be testing some 8-car trains on the Red Line over the coming months. They have to install additional sensors on the track (according to the report, one 900' before a station, another at mid-station) so ATO will be able to perform a precision stop with the existing platforms (610'?). Given that refitting all of the existing ROW with additional sensors would cost about $50 million versus about $5 billion to lengthen every station, they're very much hoping the technology solution will do the trick. There's also a press release on the WMATA site about it.
Seriously, I think this is one of those cases where it would make more sense to ship it by plane anyway. If that train derails, that could lead to a serious radioactive waste spill. And of course trains are subject to delays during which a terrorist could attack it. Yes, planes have their own security risks, but it's a lot less likely that a plane will crash than a train will derail.
In what way? Do you SERIOUSLY think they would transport radioactive waste in such a container that if the train were to derail, the waste would spill, causing a dangerous condition? Get real. It is perfectly safe, and the world would be better off without people like you spreading these false ideas.
Wow, you're not one for friendly debate, eh? Trains moving at any decent speed generally derail with more force than a simple fender bender car crash. No, I don't imagine the waste is sitting in open containers waiting to spill out. However, trains DO crash, and cars which were designed to survive impacts DO spill. I'm sorry if this comes as news but unfortunately trains aren't perfect.
robert
That would make matters worse. Radioactive material remains radioactive even if vaporized, and it would then be spread over a wider area.
That's OK, because the casks that carry nuclear waste will take a locomotive head on at greater than 70 mph and cut it in half. The cask remains intact.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moral of the story, if you want to debate whether transporting this stuff by train is a good idea or not, read up on the facts first.
What are they talking about? Reprocessing waste fuel rods to extract leftover good quality usable fissile material to fabricate new fuel pellets?
I guess you guys have to buy trackside giger counters now to ensure safe railfanning on the mainlines. I also hope they identified the contents of the railcars as toxic waste with the appropriate nomenclature so if there is an accident, people will know not to muck around.
-Robert King
Have you seen the containers? They'll survive friggin anything, probably even a near miss from a nuclear warhead (although at that point it's purpose would proabably be moot).
I take it you fear there coming through your backyard, so much the better that they should fly a mere 5 miles above you, always with the threat that it will randomly fall from the sky.
Have you seen the containers? They'll survive friggin anything, probably even a near miss from a nuclear warhead (although at that point it's purpose would proabably be moot).
No, I haven't seen the containers used in this case. I guess part of my differing opinion could be because this is the first time I've heard of this, and don't know the specific conditions of transport.
It's safe to transport.
But it is easy to spot the train with the real cargo. It will be the one guarded by James Bond! As effective as that strategy might be, I suspect it is more the product of some fiction writer's imagination rather than reality.
Tom
Nope. When you come through with factual information, it helps lead to meaningful conclusions, instead of some idiot like me speculating wildly. Anyway, I decided to look up the test info, in case anyone's interested:
http://www.ans.org/pi/faq/transport.html (see question 4)
I guess the only legitimate argument for airplaning it now would be to save time. Considering how long it takes for the stuff to decay, I don't really think an extra few days would make much difference anyway.
And you come by this information...how?
It depends what you mean by "safe". The context of this thread is safety of the cargo on a freight train; freight train derailments in the USA are (I believe) relatively common owing to poor track maintenance over the years, though one would hope that he route taken by the train that started this thread was planned to ensure that poor tracks were avoided. I suspect that air transport of the radioactive waste would have been impractical anyway - remember the waste is contained in lead containers, which are very large and immensely heavy.
However, so far as risk of death of passengers is concerned, aircraft have the problem that if they crash, usually everyone on board is killed. If a passenger train crashes, usually only a tiny proportion of those on board will be killed. For example, the January 2003 derailment on London's Central Line had no fatalities among 800+ people on board. On that basis, trains are safer than planes, though scheduled air passenger services are in fact very safe since the probability of a crash occurring is very small. Private flying is a different matter.
Your concerns are unfounded. The article was full of political posturing and pandering to ignorance; the usual anti-nuke fare.
Spent fuel casks are extremely heavy, extremely stout and exceptionally secure. You don't ship those things by airplane. A spent fuel cask can and will survive a head-on crash at 70 mph, being dropped from over 100 feet in free fall, and at least two hours in a kerosene fire with no release at all of radiation.
This doesn't mean we want to advertise where and whewn it's going. But the danger is psychological, mainly. We live in a scientifically illiterate socety, where "nuclear" is a political football of convenience.
THAT was the battle plan. By leaving the major cities cut off but INTACT, they would be such a logistical nightmare that they could do more damage to the "system" than the Soviet military could in TRYING to keep things supplied and restore function. And if you look at it from a strategic standpoint, pretty decent game plan that NOBODY expected HERE. Wasn't until the morons from outer space that New York City actually FACED an attack. :(
Meanwhile, our "strategerists" (Shrub's word) are STILL rolling out that Homeland Security money to Keokuk ... ever wonder why so ***MANY*** of the top minds of the military, Joint Chiefs and others have piped off the ship? We'se in DOODOO under the current "regime" ...
NOW, there's nuclear worries - Most of the plants and vessels were NOT designed to be hit by anything more formidable than an errant Piper Cub, and sadly, the BIGGEST problem is all those pipes in the condensors with longitudinal "corruption" ... even more so than a terrorist threat though, bad MAINTENANCE is the REAL danger to nuclear power ... and after Enron, who ISN'T cutting corners and delaying GOH's? :(
You're overstating the case (containments can take on a lot more than a Cessna), but your point about pooor maintenance isa a good one. If you want to see examples of really good safetry, outstanding performance and role-model maintenance today, you look at TVA plants (significant especially in that Brown's Ferry could be termed "most improved" compared to its state 20 years ago), Palo Verde, Diablo Canyon, Wolf Creek (serves us herein KC) and St. Lucie. If David Kenyon has fulfilled his promise to get N's act together, then Millstone will eventually join that group too.
Where do those 2 gallons an hour go? Nah, ignore that minor "glitch", it's too cheap to meter. Seriously, my Uncle James McAleavey was FOREMAN at Indian Point in the 60's and 70's ... the one the NAVY built (decommissioned) was a "TANK" ... the OTHERS though scared the qwap out of him. He died of Leukemia and Testicular cancer MANY years ago ... whether where he wored had anything to do with it or not is anybody's guess. Prior to Indian Point opening, he was forman at Kip's Bay over on First Avenue ... COAL.
So what I'm saying is I'm SORRY for the "Superman in a Piper Cub" thang, but properly loaded up with non-ammonium based catalysts, a Piper Cub COULD do enough damage to breach the bell jars GIVEN how old the concrete and rebar is, and let's be real - neutrons *DO* have a propensity to strip atoms off metal FAR faster than in "nature" and thus pipe, rebar and structural steel DO get eaten as quickly as if the cement surrounding them was ocean water with a bubbler ...
Seriously, "metal fatigue" at nuclear plants is IMPRESSIVE ...
: )
Also, I wonder why Muni went with rollsigns rather than LCD or similar displays on the Bredas.
Mark
Nope, they'll actually switch mid-run. In the tunnel both sides have the traps up. When they leave the tunnel both sides put the traps down. There's a loud alarm noise and some flashing lights when it happens.
-dave
p.s.if you're going to indent your text you should at least put the proper html to outdent when you're done so the form looks right
Mark
From my limited observation, the configuration was changed as soon as the doors closed at the last station which needed the previous configuration (either high or low).
I believe it is done that way for three reasons:
1. The operator does not want to forget to do it when he/she arrives at the next station.
2. The operator does not want to change the configuration while moving, because the bells might startle a standing passenger and cause him/her to lose his/her balance.
3. People move toward the doors before the train gets to the stop, so if the operator waits, there is likely to be someone standing on the portion that moves, causing a safety hazard.
It would not surprise me if there are wayside signs, or even automatic trippers to change the configuration at the appropriate time.
Tom
Incidentally, are you sure all high platform stations have center platforms?. From memory West Portal and Forest Hill both have high side platforms.
As I recall the early Breda cars had rollsigns; the later part of the order has LCDs.
You are also correct in that the first order of BREDAS used roll signs. What is interesting about this is that MUNI made an attempt to copy NYC with the colored circle and the letter (J,K,L,M,N). Look at the signs posted in MUNI METRO stations listing the lines and the route/destinations (the metal ones posted on walls and columns). The colors DO NOT match those used on the roll signs!!!
The second and succeeding orders of BREDAS came with LCD readouts (yellow). The original order are being retrofitted (slowly - last week I saw one with ONLY the front sign being a LCD, side signs were rolls), this will be necessary once the Third St line is incorporated as the current roll signs have no destinations for this line.
Slighty off subject, I did see Market St Railway got a PCC from NJT - it's in the workspace at Duboce.
The rollsigns on the original bunch of Breda's was...rollsigns. Car 1478-up (the newer cars) have an LCD sign. They ARE compatible, as I have stayed many times at the end of the N-Judah line and watched the signs change, simultaneously on old/new Breda's in the same train.
That was taken from the 1991 edition of the Guinness Book of World Records. Does anyone happen to know if that was done on just one fare, or did Kevin leave the system to take buses between subway lines, etc? And was he allowed to ride expresses? If no one knows I guess I'll try to contact Guinness and ask them. Thanks.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Ok, but then how would you deal with something like the Queen Blvd IND? The "Express Lines" go on a totally different alignment between say 36 St and 65 St. Would you be able to just ride exp through there? Or would you need to do both the exp and the local? Or just the local? That's actually the only example I can think of that would cause a problem. Everywhere else, the exp tracks are either right below or above or right to the side of the local tracks.
Keep in mind the system subtly changes from year to year, so Kevin's "record" is for the system as it existed in 1989.
Yes, if I was going to even consider doing this for the record in Guinness, I'd have to find out what their thoughts are on that. But if I did this for reasons other than Guinness, I would still like to follow the same rules Kevin did. But I would recognize the fact that the system is different now.
After seeing his website, I'd be inclined to require third party verification before believing his statements.
You mean verification of what he tell me in his email reply to me, right? Maybe. I'd probably try to see if Guinness would tell me anything about it.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Presumably he means verification that the ride took place at all. If you are going to do such a ride, you would need to document such things as each time and location of changes of trains, so the trip could be verified by tracing the route on a map.
Tom
He earned a Guinness World Record for the trip! So it is true! No more verification needed, unless you want to know the specifics of the trip. That my require and inquiry to the record keepers at Guinness.
You certainly have a lot of faith in Guinness. Setting a Guinness World Record is not quite as rigorous as winning a Nobel prize in science.
Tom
I don't understand, is there a reason to doubt Guinness? I'm under the impression that they have standards for certifying record breaking feats.
Keep in mind that their main business is selling ale and beer, the whole idea of the book of records was a gimmick to advertise their name. I am sure that they have some standards, such as having witnesses to whatever the record is, but they do not send their own observers, and in something such as the fastest time to ride the whole New York subway on one fare, who knows what the ground rules were? They would have been set by the person setting the record, not Guinness. And of course, Guinness would not know about anyone who did the trip in less time but did not tell them.
Tom
Well tough luck to those that don't tell Guinness. I'm going for the Guinness record, not the "secret record that no one knows about."
I don't know what rules were used in the most recent record.
Ride every bit of every revenue track? (Impossible without lots of conveniently scheduled GO's, since many pieces of revenue trackage aren't actually used in revenue service.)
Stop at every station? (No expresses except for backtracking.)
See every station? (Expresses are fine, except for, e.g., inner Queens Boulevard, Brooklyn IRT, upper Lex, lower South Brooklyn IND, 6th Avenue, Manhattan Bridge.)
Pass through every station? (Only inner Queens Boulevard, lower South Brooklyn, and the Manhattan Bridge are out.)
And how do we define a station? Is an entire station complex one station? If not, what about borderline cases like 50th/8th and Canal BMT?
Is it restricted to one fare, or are multiple fares permitted? What about out-of-system free transfers?
I don't know if there's a standard set of rules. I'd be inclined to require stopping at every station, to treat a complex as a single station, and to restrict it to one fare.
--Mark
It's interesting to note that they're looking at Portland as a model for their proposed system. I hope this means they're looking at using modern streetcars. Historic trolleys have their place, but I think modern LRVs would work better with the bold and modern image that Atlanta has long been trying to push for itself. It'd be great to see something like Portland's space caterpillars plowing down Peachtree, or maybe something like Lyon's futuristic trams.
(Of course, even better would be seeing something like Portland's space caterpillars running on SEPTA's subway-surface routes. Boy do we need larger LRVs in Philly and lots of them!)
It's good to read the plan has the backing of business and civic leaders, too.
Mark
LightRailChic from SW Philly :-)
Personally, I think some artics like those used in Toronto would look pretty cool in West Philly.
Mark
Mark
PS, did you get my email?
Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
Anyway, listeners to WINS in the morning heard John Montone's report, followed by an explanation by the anchor that Mr. Melendez spent time in jail NOT because of the kitten, but because he was wanted on an outstanding warrant! Later in the day, Mr. Montone's report was replaced by one from another reporter that consisted mostly of sound bites from a Deputy Police Commissioner explaining that Mr. Melendez's cat and his bongo playing had attracted the attention of the Police Officers and that he had refused to provide them with identification when asked, which made them suspicious. THAT's when he was arrested, and they subsequently found out who he was and that he was a wanted man.
The police have been saying for years (ever since Bill Bratton ran the Transit Police Department) that if they arrest people for little stuff they often find that those people are wanted for bigger stuff.
In my opinion, WINS management should be ashamed of itself for allowing the initial report to reach the air in the first place and for not issuing a formal retraction and apology to the NYPD. But that's a New York Radio Message Board discussion, not a Subtalk discussion...
David
WINS was not the only outlet to carry this story, many others, both print and electronic, carried this story.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Mark
Mark
:0)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.gorailtrail.org/history.htm
How did this end ? Did you safely stop it, climb down and walk away with your hands in your pockets whistling a tune ? Was the engineer found lying on the ground clutching his chest like Fred G. Sanford ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill and his conductor came down, I was already back at Main Street and he just looked me in the eye and said, "OK, what did you do with it?" He knew. :)
GP-38 ? Whatsa matta, an SD-40 not good enough ? HEH !
Bill "Newkirk"
And that one still had "New York Central" paint. Dunno what became of it, but unlike many of the others it wasn't a "smoker" ...
Is this any reference to that PATH train incident a long time ago ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Here's the deal that AIN'T in the story ... the BLE brother parked his train at a location that blocked SIX crossings with his mile-long consist. Now normally, such is forgiven but it just so happened at the time that a FIRE DEPARTMENT was trying to respond to an emergency and was BLOCKED by the train.
Now all good city residents knows what happens to your CAR or TRUCK when there's a fire and your vehicle is blocking a hydrant. I'm sure I don't have to detail. Breaking out the glass of a boxcar or trying to run a hose through it or under it only invites a cut hose when the train goes to move.
What surprises me is that in MANY states, blocking an intersection DOES get you an invite from police (Tuch has mentioned it MANY times in his "High Iron" stories out his way) ... but in New York, CSX is EXEMPT from the same laws applied elsewhere. I lived in Kingston. There was NO need (given what crews walk normally) for that train to have blocked SIX intersections. Could have stopped short of town, crews have CELL PHONES ... arrangements COULD have been made.
The folks that live here in town ALWAYS stopped where they could to fetch a snack, coffee, soda or beer for the ride home ... but you DON'T block intersections ... hell ... that's what CONDUCTORS are for. It's different on the high iron - conductors would MUCH rather walk into town than walk the damned train. :)
The BLE brother who did that DESERVES the CSX "tongue-lashing" ... nowhere NEAR as pleasant as 8th Avenue. Heh. What I don't get though is OUR guys would NEVER do that, and the morons from Jacksonville would do time in their OWN state for doing that! Shows some attitude if you KNOW the score with the railroaders - it HAD to have been done on purpose ... there's PLENTY of places to spot a train along the banks of the Hudson without screwing up traffic.
And the fire chief WAS on his way to a fire ... because he was delayed, crews got the fire out before he could respond in person as required by law ... so it wasn't exactly as though a TRUCK was blocked. But STILL ... the law says that all upstate firemen need to do is pull their zipper and WHIZ on the ashes - as long as water pours. May not have been that big a deal THIS time, but there IS a serious risk. We don't HAVE municipal fire departments up here. Siren honks, you look for the smoke and GO there and lend a hand ...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I *know* that line. Used to ride it often with Conrail buddies. There's PLENTY of places to tie up in Kingston, and the walk is DAMNED short from a safe tieup without blocking those intersections - in fact I can think of two REALLY convenient spots, depending on northbound or southbound. Frankly, I though Port Ewen was the better pit stop - we did that QUITE often - there was a pizza place where you could eat, pickup a six-pack for the ride home from the yard (mainly the WAIT for the van) and have a righteous Ulster county time of it with nobody down. Heh.
Otherwise, I'd agree. But the parties involve ... well ... they DESERVE their whipping.
Mark
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you're driving subway trains
- would you stop if an other driver ask you for?
- would you ask your colleague to stop or wait for the next train?
I would stop and ask to stop if the train is in time.
Anyway, this is nothing, once on the Beesley's Point Secondary in Laural Springs NJ I saw a Beesley's Point Extra coal train stop at a GC, a guy run out accross the street into a bar and emerge about 5 minutes later with a 6-pack. So much for rule G.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For a conductor to transport alcohol he would have to put it on the manifest and lock it in a box car.
Elias
Now they stop in Somerdale for "beans", with Somerdale Cold Cuts (hoagies [subs, heroes]), a pizzeria, and a Chinese takeout in a small strip mall.
But GEEZ ... when I used to work in the city, when I commuted down from Zoo Paltz, when I was DONE after a long day, I'd hit that little bodega across from Port Authority, brown bag THREE Foster's lager "oil cans" and settle in for a busride on Adirondack Trailwaste ... porta-potty on board, NO "Homeland Security Undergarments" required. :)
I'm sure you're old enough to remember "Yellow Submarine" and the blue meanies. Maybe I got warped by Moutn Saint Vincent, Maybe the Seminary at Dunwoodie and visits to Maryknoll. But somehow, my own warped wittle mind came out of "PUBERTY, SON!" with at least one thing - I believe that God meant for us to ENJOY his gifts - blue skies, air, the love and companionship of others and that it was HIS job to "smite them suckers, BRING IT ON!" according to HIS will.
That we were meant for our love and labors to enjoy the fruits provided ... including "seed-bearing plants" (it's IN there) ... though I got over that years ago, seems that the PRIME DIRECTIVE is simply to enjoy what is granted and DO NOT HARM ANYONE else. Maybe overly simplistic, but I much prefer the GOD I was raised with, "cosmic muffin, love" ... over the "hairy thunderer" thingy thet "party of god" is peddling. I've had way too many Charlatans and think that the Puritan policy is nuts.
I guess that's why my own parish priest prefers to hang out here. :)
Pardon the insurrection - I just can't get over STUPID work rules - when the PURPOSE is to prevent a certain type of conduct. And when said conduct does NOT occur, management can ... well ... I've often carried beers (sealed of course) on the floor of my car up front, in the back, or (gasp!) "stealthed in the trunk" ... the OBJECTIVE is whether or not I have sinned. :)
HERE, I have to challenge you - possession of CARGO to be consumed once OFF-DUTY at the end of a tour isn't a problem. You might get asked to document your octane in the morning, but sitting there waiting for a crew cab to show up to ferry you out of there to the drunk tank so you have 8 hours to sleep it off ... well ...
Possession of beer among train crews is not the same as consumption on duty or near going ON duty. For those who don't know how alcohol works, metabolism is the most unpredictable factor in calculating BAC. On average a person experiences a .017 per hour decline in BAC. The range varies from .04 on the high side to .01 on the low side. To be conservative, one would use .012 per hour decline in BAC. Above average decline in BAC is .020 per hour.
Reality is, a crew of 2 or 3 picking up a six at "Miller Time" is a tradition on the railroad. And those waiting for the company ambulance can blow through a 6 and STILL no vee-hickle. Just the way it is. But NO railroader would show up gassed. Just ain't done. Them horsies are a handful WITHOUT impairment. And what if you get caught?
Just not done. But Miller Time *is* MIller time, another 20 hour day, I"m kicking back myself. :)
I think we all have stories like this.
A 718-minute Green Line delay is in effect between Southern Ave and Greenbelt
stations in the direction of Greenbelt .
I feel very sorry for those commuters. Luckily, the delay has since been cleared.
Mark
Rail Project Requires Faith.
The title alone indicates the editor's awareness of the roadblocks (both figurative and literal) proponents of rail service face in selling the idea to midstaters.
Ignoring costs, both initial and those which would be incurred by taxpayers to sustain the system when it's up-and-running, commuter rail in my home city could easily work. Harrisburg has always been a crossroads, both for rail and highways. The rail infrastructure is already situated to serve the region's cities with Harrisburg as the core. The highways are virtually un-expandable. Most of the interstates and expressways existed prior to Eisenhower's Interstate mandate, and thus were admitted to the system under a grandfather clause. I remember driving on them, and there are some rush-hour traffic jams which need relief. (Okay, they're not as lengthy and hellish as L.A. or Atlanta beep-and-creeps, but still annoying nonetheless.)
I think if Capital Area Transit manages the project correctly, by starting slowly with service between Lancaster and Harrisburg with the all-important stop at the airport (buzzword:intermodality), by demostrating to the midstate that cost-effective and efficient, friendly service is possible in Central Pennesylvania and by initially using the infrastructure already maintained by Amtrak and then expanding outward into NS territory [probably one of the biggest hurdles will be attempting to negotiate with NS about using their railroad for commuter trains, but thanfully, NS is slightly more responsive than other Class I's (like CSX:see MARC) to commuter rail agencies, since it recognize that these agencies help pay for infrastruture upgrades], an eventual web of rail service could develop around the state capital.
The bean-counters will harp about its cost and how it doesn't pay for itself, and Pennsylvania's localities are known for their fierce independence and unwillingness to cooperate with their neighbors. Thankfully, Harrisburg's Mayor Reed is an amazingly strong leader, in his umpteenth term, who is exceptionally well-respected by the suburbs (often more than the city residents who keep electing him) for turning the city around, which he most assuredly has done in his many years in office. Rail proponents must simply be vigilant about debunking the myths about public transit, and that will be very difficult in Republicania, Pennsylvania, a region normally allergic to taxes. However, if part of Corridor One gets up-and-running, there is a chance midstaters might become amenable to the idea and even take pride in it someday.
I hope so.
Mark
One anecdote: When PATCO first opened I rode it daily, from South Jersey to Philly. A friend of mine drove daily into Philly over the Ben Franklin bridge. Two weeks after PATCO started up the friend complained that he resented his bridge toll subsidizing my train ride. I asked him how traffic into Philly had been the last two weeks, and he realized that it was significantly lighter. He then stated that he no longer objected to subsidizing PATCO patrons since it also made his commute easier.
The other unique thing about Harrisburg is that, being a crossroads and the gateway to the Northeast from most of the rest of the country (except, perhaps, the Southern Atlantic coast), there is an immense concentration of truck traffic in the region, causing a more heightened safety issue, as well as the need for more frequent highway maintenance. Anybody who has driven in Pennsylvania knows that it has some of the roughest roads in the northeast, due in no small part to heavy truch use.
Look at New York. It has the largest transit concentration of transit services and alternatives in the country, yet there are still daily rush-hour traffic jams, even though Robert Moses tried his damnedest to ram ever more highways through ever more neighborhoods. Imagine if there were no subway here. The BQE would be a parking lot 24/7! Harrisburg had no Mr. Moses, so when PennDOT added as many lanes to I-83 as were possible before running into existing property and structures, that was it. However, the rails are there, they were there before the highways, and they can serve many of the same destinations. I say they use them!
One thing I forgot to mention is that places of employment in Central PA are not all concentrated in Harrisburg city. There is sprawl there similar sprawl to most other U.S. cities. However, there are enough state government offices located downtown as to draw a good amount of people to work there, even though parking is not as readily available and free as it is in the surrounding industrial parks.
Perhaps a commuter rail service will induce more private businesses to remain or creat downtown offices in the city. Whether or not that benefits the region or not is another debate. It's interesting to note that 2nd Street's having been redeveloped from a dead, run-down thoroughfare into a night spot destination has actually drawn criticism from Harrisburgers who fear a "New Yorkification" of Harriburg, and want to keep the burg the sleepy, nowhere town they have always known.
I think we've reached a point where the age of sprawl has gone on for so long that a lot of people don't remember anything else, and don't realize that small cities and towns weren't always as dead as they are today, that once downtowns wer active places where people walked around oding there business, and actually passed each other in the streets, spoke with people they knew, and there were things to do after 5:00 PM. Yes, those boarded up stores were once open, that abandoned theater once showed movies, and a lot of the downtown parking lots once had buildings on them.
Mark
Amen.
(And I say that being one of those people who is not old enough to remember those days. It just so happens that I crack open a history book every once in a while.)
Actually, the idea that urban revitalization destroys the small town character of a place is very flawed. To me the core of "small town character" is that people there know each other and treat each other, on some level, like extended family. Community is what makes small towns small towns. Sprawl hurts this because it lessens human contact.
Mark
I need to know approximately how long is the scheduled trip Manhattan bound from Euclid Ave to Chamber Street on the C train.
I need this ASAP please.
Thanks
CG
The C takes about 32 minutes from Euclid to Chambers. The A express takes about 28 minutes.
Pitch a tent and report back in a year.
The first has the words "It's good for your biceps" directly under the first line. The 2nd version has a line width space between the two sentences.
See the illustrations in this ebay auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2183635507&category=4152
One says " Carry babies and strollers on stairs" the other says "Carry babies and folded strollers on stairs".
The word "folded" being added to the 2nd card.
The 2nd line is as I mentioned in my first post.
The word "folded" being added to the 2nd card."
AHA ! They snuck in one word to fool us collectors. Thanx, I'll check my extras to see if I have both.
Bill "Newkirk"
Or how about the fourth version: "Don't ride the subways with babies and strollers. Wait until they're old enough to walk"!
Bill "Newkirk"
Not really. Carrying the baby and folded stroller would not significantly stress the biceps following the parent's initial lifting of the bady and stroller. As with most muscle groups, biceps hypertrophy requires repeated overload for a number of repetitions; 6 to 8 reps are optimal for maximum strength gain while 10 to 12 reps, with a correspondingly lighter load, are best for size gains. Moreover, hand position is important during curling exercises for one's biceps, with a fully supinated (palms facing up) positions being the best, hence the better results generally received through use of a straight barbell vs. an EZ-Curl bar. It is highly unlikely that one could carry a baby and folded stroller with fully supinated hands.
In short, the MetroCard message is largely incorrect.
IMO, almost ALL of them have been incorrect...
Today...I go in search of the elusive M-7. As much time as I've spent on the LIRR in the past week, I've yet to get a photo of one.
By the way, what's up with the "36th Street". I haven't seen that since the M first started running to 9th ave, and they didn't have "9th Ave" on the R27-30 rollsigns, so they used "36th St".
When the West End express track is in use in either direction, the M is cut back to (dare I say it) Chambers.
American companies had a proficiency for building crappy cars. BUDD was the only one that didn't. It's sad that BUDD isn't still here.
I hate to break this to you, pal, but you're reciting a lot of fiction there. The R62A performs as well as any other car brand new did in the inventory, your flag-wrapped rant notwithstanding.
Budd designed a lot of neat cars; among them was Penn Central's famous MU Metroliner set, which started the first high-speed rail service in Northb America. The units were innovative, grounbreaking. They ran at 150 mph on tests.
But in service, they were notoriously unreliable, breaking down frequently. The Penn Central and later, Amtrak, worked hard to iron out the bugs, and finally achieved a consistemnt 110 mph top speed and average of 75, very respectable.
Budd may or may not have survived in the railcar market with the R62 order. Contrary to your post, NYC syubway car orders are rarely described as "lucrative." MTA demands a hell of a lot from builders. Unless Budd had other customers in other cities and countries, it would have exited the business anyway.
Bombardier has had some QA problemsw, no doubt. But your description is made up. No relation to reality.
Bombardier never made the R68's. It was Westinghouse and Kawasaki. The only Bombardier cars made for the MTA were the R62A's, the M7(The only Bombs without any major problems) and the infamous R142's
Look on an R68 builder's plate next time you see one.
False statement. Companies will take orders to try to preserve their business, or in the hope they can build on the future, but it doesn't always work out.
Bombardier, Breda, Siemens, Alsthom and Kawasaki are in the railcar business because they compete in a world-wide market. Budd's railcar business began to siphon resources they needed to stay competitive in their MAIN line of work, which is automotive products (Budd is a leading supplier to Ford, GM etc.)
I take it you don't know about Morrison-Knudsen's problems with the R4446 overhaul order. The company did a great job, but lost money on the deal.
"I'm not aware of the cars by Budd you later ascribe problems to."
Well, you are now. Budd had its share of difficulties, just like any other manufacturer. It made good, as Bombardier ultimately will as well.
If properly tested the Metroliners could have been great. Recall the Silverliner MU's. 6 prototypes were built in 1956 (Poineer III's) and then tested for 5 years until orders for the 60 or so production models were placed in 1961-63. The Silverliners were similarily a big step forward with AC-DC propultion and HVAC systems, but they preformed well due to adequate preparation time. The Metroliners were concieved in 1966 and then delivered in late 1968. There were no prototypes, the closest thing being a set of 4 hi-speed Silverliners made for USDOT.
You will also recall that the R32's were pre-dated by the R11 prototype train which also probably helped out the design of the SEPTA M-3's.
I will admit that the Amfleets had some genuine design problems with their brake system freezing up.
Really, the R11 prototype train and the R32 don't have a direct correlation. What helped the R32 was that is was similar to just about every other train on NYCT trackage. NYCT had a big thing with that: Making a standard and having anyone build it, and the R1-9 are the biggest example of this.
The R11 was a prototype of a 2nd av subway fleet. Years before the R32 was ever thought of.
I liked the Metroliner MU concept. Really innovative ground breaking work. But you have to take care of the details...
The Pioneer III's propulsion system is NOTHING like the Silverliner II/III cars.
The Pioneer III was basically an AC-only version of the new Haven Washboards (best I can tell, a look at a good book on the Washbords will likely confirm this), which itself was just an LIRR MU setup with a substation hanging next to it. Litterally - the ignitrons on the Pioneer III cars just feed a regular DC EMU setup.
The Silverliner II cars were significantly different, and used a GE system. In the GE system, the ignitrons play an active role in current regulation, by the solid state control system varying the firing angle of them. These cars have a whopping total of 4 contactors in the propulsion system - Line breaker and an A,B, and C tap. B and C are constant voltage DC supplies, A is the variable voltage one. When the car starts out, only A is in, and the ignitrons regulate acceleration current. Once the firing angle is 0 degrees, depending on the controller notch, the car will return to 180 degrees and jump in the B supply, and advance toward 0 degrees again. Once at 0, if allowed by the controller position, the car will once again return to 180 degrees, then jump in the C supply, and advance again.
This is why you'll notice a SL II/II/IV accelerates very smoothly.
DC is provided by solid state rectfiers on all 3 circuits. This was a very early application of sillicon technology in MUs. I believe ASEA might have had thyristor EMUs by the mid 60's, though. Westinghouse tried thyristors in the Metroliner and Arrow I, but they were couldn't get it to work.
Ironically, the Ignitron was a Westinghouse invention, the Thyristor was a GE one...
GE used air blast cooling, Westinghouse used water cooling on their tubes. Air blast was much better - the purity of water had to be high to keep electrolytic effects low probbably - the tube cases were not grounded. Westinghouse's system used 4 tubes in a full wave rectifier with two on each side - basically a giant table radio power supply (!).
I have the maintenance manual for the propulsion system on the Pioneer IIIs, and GE's proposal for the Arrow I's system, which describes the Silverliner II/III design. BTW, the Silverliners all have 25kv (actually 23kv, per GE's book) taps on their transformers, and 60hz operation ability. Some SL IVs have changeover equipment, it was offered as optional equipment on all the Silverliners, AFAIK.
I think the EP-5 might have used oil cooled tubes, the E-44 used water, I don't know what the E-33 used.
Ignitrons were the delivered equipment in the Washboards, Pioneer III, SL II, SL III, SL IV, M-2, Arrow II and GE equipped Metroliners. Thyristors were used on the Arrow I, and Arrow III, and Westinghouse equipped Metroliners. I'm guessing on the M-4 and M-6 cars too. The M-2s were definately retrofitted, I've heard a few Washboards were too, as were some Metroliners. I don't know if the Silverliners are tube still or not, I suspect they are since SEPTA's commented parts are no longer made and hard to get. Then again, even the semiconductors used in the card rack are likely no longer available.
BTW, the Silverliner II used a then new technology in it's control system - circuit boards.
If I line up your posts on electric power, take out a physics textbook and refer to it as needed, all you'd be missing is a way to offer me an accredited certificate. You write very well on this subject, which is why whenever we discuss electric power, I'm always looking for you to chime in.
Thanks for the teaching moment!
David
In 1981?
David
R-62: 1983-85
R-62A: 1984-87
R-68: 1986-88
R-68A: 1988-89 (ordered 1987, if memory serves)
The reason the R-68s took so long to start coming in is that ANF-Industrie used the wrong gauge stainless steel in constructing the carbodies (too heavy) and had to start over again.
David
David
BUDD also made a bid on the R62A contract.
I went to Chambers today at 11:50 and stayed until about 12:30, but did not see the R110B, only R32/R38's on the C.
Was this R110B running today? Any further updates on this train?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Maybe the train would work out on the BQ Crosstown if it were still in shape for revenue service.
Maybe if they were short on cars then pressing this train into service might be warranted. And maybe they are short on cars (they run short C trains all the time). Are they taht short? I don't know.
But now how is anyone going to prove that they are current photos, obviously this is going to be hard to do as they ran on the C for a few years.
Greenberger's idea: a photo of them at 42 St-PABT (new wall tile).
42nd Street is satisfactory evidence.
I can confirm that the C train that ran on Trevor's R-110B schedule on Tuesday was an R-38 set.
A photograph is only proof that the train ran at some time, not that it ran recently -- unless the background of the image has changed recently. The obvious example is 42nd Street.
Peace
David
1. Numerous TA employees who post here have either said or hinted at the fact that the R110B's aren't even on the active roster.
2. Numerous Railfanners have said they've only seen the R110B on the same track whenever they see it.
3. Everyone who looks for the interval of this C train finds that it isn't an R110B. The first listed interval wasn't even a scheduled C train departure time.
4. Trevor has shown NO proof that the R110B still runs, and his claim is specious at best. They run the train one trip to Euclid and then back to 168th, then back to bed? When the R110B DID run on the line, it ran for just about ALL of the midday segment. Otherwise, you have a train crew that has to switch trainsest in the middle of the day: what's the point of that?
5. Last time there was any official news on the cars, Train Dude said that there was an order for parts to repair All 3 trainsets. Why would we be going back to the 6 car ones only then?
I understand Trevor's your friend or something. This doesn't mean that he can't play some 'trickery' on subtalkers.
EVERY TA EMPLOYEE ON THIS SITE SAYS:
R110B NOT RUNNING IN REVENUE SERVICE NOW
Isn't that easy to understand? Why don't you get trevor to show those pictures to us?
Sounds like Trevor is doing an N_Slant_40 parody.
No. That just means that he's duped you.
It goes beyond T/O's. Some of these people are middle management who would be in a position to access all the records. Widecab5 even gave the last date of the R110B's run. Then SUBWAYSURF also pointed out that this isn't the first time trevor's told some 'little white lies' about R110B's.
Face it: he told an untruth. It's not the end of the world.
BTW, that damn N_Slant_40 said that he saw some Modified R143 that looked like the R160, I highly doubt that Trevor is lying about what he saw.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Noo...not really, N_Slant_40 claimed that the first R-160's were here at 207th St. of which a TA employee told him so. I knew he was bluffing from the git go.
Bill "Newkirk"
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Adam
Anyway getting back on topic I don't think Trevor would lie about that but from what I see it hasn't been in service for quite some time on the C.
You made a post on the R44-46 that generated many replies. So, I wonder what you are referring to.
I also don't post anything personal. That doesn't mean I don't sympathise; I just want to stay on topic.
I do sympathise for the abrasive comments you've gotten from some people who resent your more personal postings. Even though I don't think you should have posted them, I don't think others should have reacted so nastily.
Just remember this though. Most of your threads were started with redundancy in mind or the fact you were unnecessarily fierce with everyone. You reap what you sow. Oh, and just for reference, I recommend you reread what Jersey Mike posted to you just because you thought your 'joke' was funny.
Continue rotting in bed, thanks.
Dear Ole CC seeking our sympathies............... again??
If I recall properly, we all OVERDID our sympathies to CC the first time his
'condition' was known.... tho it later came to look (and sound) like a FALSE gig.
Clear. You BETRAYED our over-endearing trust, gramps!
WHETHER YOUR CONDITION WAS REAL OR NOT, ALL THINGS CONSIDERED LET'S LEAVE
THAT --ALL-- OUT TO PASTURE.... NO TIME TO RE-HASH SECONDHAND POSTINGS.
This is a TRANSIT Board... not a SYMPATHY Well.
We've already given ALL necessary and due sympathies to you!!
If ye expect us to pour-on the sympathies EVERY $@$@#! TIME you post, ...... as if you're some sort of miracle...
.....then Ye must first walk on water.
This is a TRANSIT Board... not a SYMPATHY Well.
-The Unspoken Minority .
Once again I hope you health gets better in time 8-).
Unfortunately your illness has affected your memory. When you first mentioned that you were ill, there was a great outpouring of sympathy from other Sub Talkers. We recognized your illness, wished you well, and have accepted you as a member of the Sub Talk community. Your status in this community is not dependant on your health, and as much as we might like it to, our commenting on your health continuously will not affect your condition. You will either get better or die, and what we post on this board will not change the outcome. Some others of us face serious health problems also, but since this is not Health Talk, we do not mention them.
I have lived through the last months of friends with terminal cancer and AIDS. In neither situation did I spend any time expressing concern over their serious and on-going health problems. We just lived life day to day, trying to find what pleasure we could in the time available to us.
If you get pleasure from discussing trains and particularly the New York subways, this is the place for you. If you want expressions of concern regarding your health problems, visit doctors.
Tom
Next stop on the Sea Beach: New Utrecht Avenue, and a possible transfer if you wish to #3 BMT Jeff's West End Line.
With CC, I bluntly recall, there WAS.
I wish the brah well.. but WHY (for the love of Pirmann) must he keep
mentioning it to us constantly... how much more sympathy DOES he want?
It was fair play for Jersey City. The other Bay, New York, was the scene of the Black Tom explosion in 1916. The Statue of Liberty still has pockmarks from it.
Does the name "John Waybe Bobbitt" ring a bell?
A midstate light rail?
Thanks!!!!
"It's like night and day".
It is uncertain why NJT chose to essentially turn a four story tall 19 year-old modern structure into an MoW lounge instead of upgrading the interlocking machine. I guess for some reason they feel it is more reliable to use CCTV systems and telephone links to keep on top
of happenings at the terminal rather than have staff physically on site.
NJT joins SEPTA as the second commuter railroad to eliminate off of its towers in 2003. Let us hope that NJT faces a similar drop in on-time performance as a reward for their short-sightedness.
Jimmy
It's funny....When I saw it last week. It was sitting on rusty wheels and rustier rails....Looks like it has not turned a wheel in some time.
Still don't believe it? Go wait at a C station until you turn blue in the face and I promise you that it will not come through.
Either way, they aren't running, which is what I had expected.
The R-68A's and R-110B's had better not be going to the 7.
OTOH, the Steinway tubes could use a widening job.
Um, why don't YOU follow some of YOUR OWN advice? He corrected his mistake YESTERDAY!!!!! Why are you still yelling at him??? READ the thread before you post!!!!!
I could go back and look it up, but I believe the last trip was a six-car gap train (3001-3006) in March or April 2001. I remember seeing it at Spring Street SB around then, doing a C turn from 168 to WTC. As for 3007-3009, that things been grounded since 1998 or maybe even earlier. They should still be visible from the el at 215 Street station. Its very deceiving and looks a great deal like an R-68 from that viewpoint.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Mark: Thank you for setting the record straight. Maybe the R-110B is parked at 76 Street and Pitkin Avenue which is why so many though they saw it.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
I did see a ten-car set of R-160's, but it went by on the express track.
I really have zero reason to lie about something so trival. No one is saying that anyone saw the cars like yesterday or this past tuesday.
This was back in May...
If the cars were retired in 2000. Why was the cars spotted in 2001 (by someone else) AND spotted in May of this year. I can say that things happen in the TA for no reason. Wierd things, prime example Tuesday's screw up on the 6 line with 4 Line Equipment. This is system is so screwed up that things are liable to happen....
I'm bowing down gracefully and I've made a decision to no longer post, the second something just a little out of the ordinary happens, people go off the deep end, one of the main reasons I barely post here as it is.
Enjoy the board, and I'll see ya all next lifetime!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
TransiTALK
Definitely. There could be any reason that train was in service. It may be in usable shape and somehow there was a shortage of R32/28s for the C line. Maybe they were expecting some dignitaries to be riding on 8th Avenue so they threw a (somewhat crippled) high tech train out there.
And of course there's always the same reason that we see the occaisonal R46 on the E line... a rookie yardmaster screwed up.
<I'm bowing down gracefully and I've made a decision to no longer post>
Trevor, your photographs and other contirubtions are a great asset here, please reconsider.
til next time
I'm leaving because I'm tired! And your reply proves how tired this board is! I don't have to prove myself to anyone, THOUGH I had, by showing several people the slides. But that's neither here nor there!
My decision to leave is justified by SEVERAL situation, this was just the icing on the cake.
OH and BTW anyone that e-mails someone calling them a "punk-ass wussy-boy" anonymously because I've decided to leave a board clearly needs help and is a wuss themselves for not showing their e-mail (Not stating its your but the message is now out there)!
Someone has a slide scanner, we'll scan and scrutinize!!!!!!! Invites Out and so am I!
Regards & Final Post,
Trevor Logan Junior
Adam
Peace,
ANDEE
In any case, the R-110Bs definitely have not run in some time.
David
til next time
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
If this is true, it would be great to get some photos to share with subtalkers! :-) -Nick
til next time
That reason is that they are no longer needed since they proved themselves as test vehicles. They'll never run again.
Bill "Newkirk"
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
--Mark
Do you all agree that public transit allows the elderly, the blind, the physically impaired, the young and those otherwise incapable of driving an alternative that leaves the roads and sidewalks much safer for everyone?
I think that as the population ages, public transit will become more necessary to allow the elderly a safe mode of self-directed transit. The debate around public transit often centers around getting people out of their cars. The elderly are one group that often should be out of their cars, and perhaps it's time to help them make the right choice by encouraging the development of walkable communities and of public transit that provides a reasonable alternative to the automobile. A combination of zoning for walkable densities and excellent public transit will get drivers, including the elderly, out of their cars.
Obviously most of the readers of SubTalk already live in good public transit places, but should accidents like this one push other communities to focus more on public transit?
The fact that seniors often can't drive themselves is another reason to build good transit systems combined with higher density and mixed purpose land use patterns that make both transit and walking practical means of getting around.
Mark
What was VERY VERY SCARY in that same article was when she mentioned that at her eye exam she spoke with a 50 year old man WHO DROVE A SEMI CROSS COUNTRY for a living - I believe his quote was "I know the way".
As our population ages, we need $ spent for more elderly friendly public transport.
Probably nothing that would yet affect his vision. Holders of commercial driver's licenses are subject to periodic physical testing. A significant loss of eyesight would be detected pretty quickly.
On the other hand, airline pilots face mandatory, age-based retirement. Certainly the risks are higher, but if pilots can be cut off, why NOT drivers?
Mark
Just for commercial flying. As far as I know, there's no age limit at all for private pilot's licenses.
Ironically, Santa Monica has one of the better municipal bus services around. Low fares, too. It also has a large elderly population who *do* (in my observation over many years of visiting S.M.) make good use of the buses. Just so tragic that this particular elderly man didn't.
Incidentally this item made top headlines in the New Zealand newpapers this (Friday 18 July) morning.
I am in total favor of continual testing for drivers of all ages. If you can't drive, do not have good reaction times, or it simply looks like you got your license at K-mart, then STAY OFF THE ROAD! No offense to the good people at K-mart.
In this day and age (and in most states), you can no longer hide poor driving abilities behind alcohol, drugs (illegal AND prescription), or now simply being tired. Why does it still seem to be ok to hide poor driving abilities behind age or stupidity. If my driving abilities deteriorate without my knowledge...then get me the heck off the road! Let's face it, the older you get, the less likely your "as good" at things as you used to be. I'm 40 now...and already there's creaks, soreness, and momentary lapses of memory every now and then. This does not happen to everyone! Periodic testing could keep those that are a danger off the roads.
A few years ago in Atlantic City, an elderly woman and her friend were killed as their car plunged from a 9th story parking garage at one of the casinos....must have hit the gas instead of the brake.
Even in my hometown outside of Philadelphia, a few years ago another elderly woman crashed her car into a UPS truck. Why? She forgot to remove the big sun shade from her windshield. Hello??
I agree, improved public transportation will help. However, given the choice..most people will still take their cars...people want the freedom to go wherever and whenever they want.
I feel for the families of the killed and injured. I also feel for the man who did this. But I think its time we wake up, and realize that the drivers license that you got when you were 16 should not be yours to keep for the next 70 years. You had to earn it then, you need to show that you can still handle the responsibilities now.
Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
I think a big part of the problem, and I've said this a million times before, is that we've designed our cities and towns so that driving is the usually the most convenient option and in many places the only option. It is possible to design a town where walking, transit, and biking are more convenient than driving, we've just chosen not to do so. This kind of sound urban planning isn't just for big cities, but medium-sized ones and small towns, too. Where a large cities can be designed so subways are the best way to get around, small towns can be designed so that everything is reachable by foot or bike.
But we haven't done that kind of smart designing in fifty years. Sensible urban planning is only slowly making a comeback. Downtowns are slowly being revived, while sprawl-style development is spreading as fast as ever.
Mark
Back in the day when Hector was a pup we used to wonder if someone got their license at Sears or Montgomery Wards; whether it was because both chains were catalog merchants or because they each had a driving school connected with their auto service centers in some of the larger markets I don't recall.
In a number of states now drivers are being retested IF they have had a moving violation since their last renewal. Unfortunately, there are other states that are extending renewal cycles out to the ten year mark or beyond, which negates much of the benefit of this. Personally, I prefer a four or five year renewal cycle with retesting (written and eye test) for all drivers, and a road test for anyone with a moving violation. But the cost of implementing that would be significant and it would also be politically unpopular so I doubt we'll ever see it.
Until nexct time...
Anon_e_mouse
Naturally this is quite expensive, it would have to be conducted by private companies, but could also be held at schools or whatever. Cost might be $50.00 per session, but a small price to pay to keep a driver's license.
Elias
On another tangent, the goal of the TWU is 20 years work for 50 years pay, with other people working more fore less to make up the difference, if their push for a 20/50 pension is to be believed. But let's say there was a T/O who actually liked his/her job. Is there any limit or re-certification for operating a train? It may not have come up, but it will. Given the likely status of the labor market in 2020, NYCT may have to hire people 55 to 70 years old to replace 50 year olds retiring to a life of leisure.
Try again. The 20/50 pension plan being pushed would allow us to retire after 20 years of service AND reaching the age of 50 (with an extra 5% from each check going to fund it). The current deal is 25 years of service and reaching age 55. Right now, I will reach 25 years at age 60. Of course, Soc Sec and stuff like that won't kick in until I'm 67 (assuming its continued existence).
The outer limit for operating a train is your continued good (in the mind of Transit) health. I'm 41 and have already had two run-ins with this mindset (contact me privately to see what we're up against). The chances of my still being employed as a T/O in 19 years are dropping - this is why they make promotional tests.
Painting with a broad brush -- the elderly want public transit which serves retail and residential areas. The commuter crowd wants service to business and industrial areas. The elderly crowd wants easy boarding and minimal walking from the transit stop to the destination (i.e. frequent stops). The commuter crowd wants speed.
It's a very difficult interplay. In my little suburb, the village runs a variety of senior citizen busses around town -- despite the fact that the village is very well served by LI Bus. The seniors want (and many need) to be dropped off at the entrance to the supermarket -- not on the corner a block or two away.
The dedicated senior transportation seems to be the best model I've seen for giving the elderly a viable alternative to driving.
CG
Mark
There is a similar system here. The municipal bus service costs only 30¢ for seniors, but it is supplemented by another ten passenger bus which goes to the senior day center, a couple of supermarkets, and four senior housing developments. The senior bus is free to senior residents, and is funded by other funds than the regular bus service.
Tom
What I was thinking of doing was replacing the "B" train with a service that would run from the Brighton exp/West End line (wherever the B train runs) then over the northside to 2nd avenue. After that, it could run to queens blvd at 63rd (and the E/F would have reduced headways). The M would use the Chrystie connector to replace B service on 6th av/CPW (running local though), and the J would be extended to Brooklyn in place of the "M".
Story here
On the map only (2),(5) and <5> runs on White Plains.
Wrong line number in the window?!
I don't know if there is one at Livonia.
You are correct. To provide relief for long-suffering WPR/Times Square or Penn Station riders who had to suffer additional local stops below 96th during this period, a few 3s were put into peak directional service: a couple to and from Nereid, and few more to and from 180th.
One morning in summer '02, I made it a point to get to Nereid super early for the unusual experience of riding a 62A along White Plains. We were right behind a 5 all the way to 180th, and at every stop most of the remaining passengers eagerly boarded the 3 I was on. Likewise all local stops below 180th. When I got off at 96th, a 2 pulled in immediately afterward. It was empty.
So this special service was obviously very popular in the morning. I never got to ride it outbound in the afternoon, but am sure that most people headed for the Bronx wouldn't get on any R62A signed as a 3 even if it were clearly signed and announced as headed to 180th or Nereid (or 241st, or whatever the sign on a 62A would say). Likewise, I bet lots of people on these rerouted 3s would assume they were headed to Lenox Terminal and become hysterical upon arriving at 149th/Concourse.
Unfortunately, 1 and 2 riders from Brooklyn had no stop-gap peak express service for the West Side. It was either all local to 14th, or changing at Atlantic.
The brave souls are:
-Myself (that's me, Kool-D)
-R30
-and a brand new Subtalker who will be joining us here on this board shortly. His wife will accompany him on the entire trip. In advance of joining this wonderful family; Welcome Aboard.
The date: Thursday, July 24, time and location for the starting gate is TBD.
There was tremendous interest in this elusive goal any railfanner wanted to do and I salute everyone for this. Thank you for those who were interested.
Choo Choo will join us sometime during the course of the trip.
ATTENTION: Please note that while I do appreciate anyone who comes along with us for part of the trip, there will be a film crew with us and please do not just jump in front of the camera as we are in the process of conducting interviews, taking action shots of us moving around, etc. Please respect that and when we do the actual footage, you might want to take a seat on the train at a safe distance, who knows, your face might be in the final cut.
As the countdown begins one week from today, I will fill you in on this board as the time and place we will begin this trip. On the trip days, I will let you know how you can catch up with us on my UPOC NYC Subway Stories group site, where from time to time, I will be posting from my mobile phone how the gang is doing, what we covered and where we at.
I will discuss with the crew as to make an allowance for us to use the F shuttle bus and the B68 so that all stations are covered. This will save us time too.
For the 3 line at Lenox Terminal, we have to double back to 110th/CPN if we need to continue on a Bronx-bound #2 train. You get the idea now.
They probably can take an express after they've already gotten the stations in that section, like say go to Flushing via express and return on the local...
In the case of the first two, I would ride both. In the case of the Lex, I would feel comfortable just riding the express. It is right below the local, versus being somewhere far away.
They probably can take an express after they've already gotten the stations in that section, like say go to Flushing via express and return on the local...
Yeah, they probably will.
See you somewhere.
No, he is my friend. I told him about it. He is more of a Strappies person...
My math: 6 minutes wait (on avg) at each station * 464 stations = 2784 minutes of waiting / 60 min per hour = 46.4 hours. So the total trip would take 30 hours + 46.4 = 76.4 hours.
Oh, and please refrain from chasing certain MYSTICAL women..
It's a subway theme.... not Blind Date! (yet...)
LOL
Awww, so you mean it's against the rules to change the sign and make the train go elsewhere? :)
ALL women are mystical...that's what makes them interesting...
Good point, brah!
Ameng to that!!
But still.... Boiz, make us all proud, now!
Bill "Newkirk"
Welcome aboard.
We are also open to any suggestions from other fellow Subtalkers about the planned route. Remember, that during late nights, we must avoid the 1 to SF, the G and L lines in Brooklyn, the W from 57/7 to Lexington Ave, and the 6 line to/from the Bronx, those are the worst offenders.
(3) New Lots-148th Street (Entire Line)
(3) 148th Street-135th Street or 96th Street
**TRANSFER TO (2)**
(2) Wherever you Transfer-241st Street
(2) 241st Street-E 180th Street
**TRANSFER TO (5)**
(5) E 180th Street-Dyre Avenue
(5) Dyre Avenue-125 Street
**TRANSFER TO (6)**
(6) 125th Street-Pelham Park
(6) Pelham Park-Brooklyn Bridge
If running use Diamond 6 one way to take some time off
**TRANSFER TO (4)**
(4) Brooklyn Bridge-Atlantic Avenue
**TRANSFER TO (2)**
(2) Atlantic Avenue-Flatbush Avenue/Brooklyn College
(2) Flatbush Avenue/Brooklyn College-Franklin Avenue
**TRANSFER TO (S)**
(S) Botanic Garden-Franklin Avenue
(S) Frankin Avenue-Prospect Park
Continue from there
I was thinking more like starting on a route where it take a long time to double back, like Avenue X on the F would be a good starting point, because we have to backtrack to 4th Ave to change to another train.
Thank you for the suggestion.
Then you don't need to bother backtracking from the 3 to the 2. Start with the 3 and use the 4 or 5 later on to get to the Bronx.
So we can run #1 local for the entire route and if we loop through SF, we can use the #2 or #3 Uptown.
Midday (10 AM-3PM)
A: Far Rock shuttle
4: S/B express from Burnside to 149th st/GC
LATE NIGHTS (11:30 pm-5:30 am)
1: Shuttle bus, Chambers to SF and Downtown bypass 103/116 (all times)
2 and 4: Manhattan bound bypass EP, GAP, and Bergen in Brooklyn
6: 2 sections, transfer at 125th st/Lex Ave to continue trip
A: via. F line from West 4th st to Jay (southbound)
E: Jamaica Center bound, express from QP to Roosevelt
F and G: F Manhattan bound express from 4th Ave to Jay, AND no G trains from Hoyt to Smith-9th (with single track from Hoyt to Bedford Nostrand and change trains at Bedford-Nostrand to continute trip)
L: Shuttle bus Lorimer to BJ
N: Single track 59th st to 8th Ave, no trains north of 59th st/4th Ave
W: 5th Ave/60 st closed, no trains between 57/7 and Lex.
Route From To Approx Time
1 Times Square SF loop 1230
1 SF Loop Chambers 1240
2 Chambers Flatbush 120
2 Flatbush Franklin 140
3 Franklin New Lots 200
3 New Lots Utica 220
4 Utica Atlantic 230
Q local Atlantic BB 300
Q Exp BB PP 320
Shuttle PP Franklin 330
C Franklin Hoyt/Scher. 350
C Hoyt Scher Euclid 425
A Euclid Rockaways or Lefferts 500
A Rockaways or Lefferts Rockaway Blvd (for other leg to cover) 540
A From FR or Lefferts Broadway Junction 630
L Broadway Junction Rockaway Parkway 650
L Rockaway Parkway 8th Avenue 740
C 14th St Hoyt-Scher. 810
G Hoyt Scher. Court Square 840
E 23rd/Ely Queens Plaza 850
R or V Queens Plaza Continetal 920
E or F Continetal Roosevelt` 940`
7 74th st/Roosevelt Main St/Flushing 1010
7 Main St Times Sqaure 1040
1 Times Square 242/VCP 1115
1 242nd VCP 168th st 1150
A 168th srt 207th st 1220 AM
A 207th st Jay St (via F line) 140 AM
A Jay St (via. A line) 59th st CC 230 AM
D 59th st/CC Bedford Pk Blvd 330 AM
D shuttle BPB to 205 And return 350 AM
D BPB 161st st/River Ave 420 AM
4 161st st/River Ave Woodlawn 500 AM
4 Woodlawn 125th st 530AM
6 125th st Pelham Bay Park 615 AM
6 Express PBP Brooklyn Bridge 715 AM
4 Brooklyn Bridge Fulton St 730 AM
3 Fulton St 148th St/Lenox 810 AM
3 148th St/Lenox 110th st/CPW 830
2 110th st/CPW 241st st/WPR 920
2 241/WPR East 180th st 950 AM
5 East 180th st Dyre 1015 AM
5 Dyre 59th st/Lex 1100
W 59th st/Lex Astoria 1130
N Astoria 86th st 1250 PM
N 86th st 59th st/4th Ave 120 PM
R 59th st/4th ave 95th st/4th Ave 140
R 95th st/4th Ave 36th st/4th Ave 200
W 36th st Stillwell/CI 230
Shuttle Bus Stillwell/CI Avenue X 250
F Avenue X 179th St 400
F 179th st Union Turnpike 420
E Union Turnpike Jamaica Center 450
J Jamaica Center Myrtle 540
M Myrtle Metropolitan 610
M Metropolitan Broad St 700 PM
7th Ave/53rd st in Manhattan also needs to be fitted into this route plan somewhere. There is always one thorn in your massive plans.
4 or 5 Brooklyn Bridge to Bowling Green
4 or 5 Bowling Green to 42nd/GC
Shuttle to Times Square
3 from Times Square to 148th st/Lenox... then continue rest of route.
Better than this, start at Lexington Avenue on th E, this gets all the crosstown E stations
If you slip the 2 and 5 in between the 4 and the 6, you'll save a lot of time later on backtracking from the 3 to the 2. That way you can take the 3 straight back to Times Square for the N/W. You might also catch a 5 express (I'm not looking at the schedule and I'm not sure if they run that early). The 6 express runs middays, so you're still fine there.
It wouldn't be hard to hit 5th and 7th at this point: just take an E instead of an A. Then transfer at 7th to the D. (You don't need Lex since you already got it upstairs on the 6.)
Route From To
1 Times Square SF loop
1 SF Loop Chambers
2 Chambers Flatbush
2 Flatbush Franklin
3 Franklin New Lots
3 New Lots Utica
4 Utica BB/CH
6 BB/CH 14th st/US
Q local 14th st/US Brighton Beach
Q Exp Brighton Beach PP
Shuttle PP Franklin
C Franklin Hoyt/Scher.
C Hoyt Scher Euclid
A Euclid Rockaways or Lefferts
A Rockaways or Lefferts Rockaway Blvd (for other leg to cover)
A From FR or Lefferts Broadway Junction
L Broadway Junction Rockaway Parkway
L Rockaway Parkway 8th Avenue
C 14th St Hoyt-Scher.
G Hoyt Scher. Court Square
E 23rd/Ely 7th Ave/53rd st
E 7th Ave/53rd st Queens Plaza
R or V Queens Plaza Continental
E or F Continental Roosevelt`
7 74th st/Roosevelt Main St/Flushing
7 Main St Times Sqaure
1 Times Square 242/VCP
1 242nd VCP 168th st
A 168th srt 207th st
A 207th st 23rd St
E 23rd st 7th Ave
D 59th st/CC Bedford Pk Blvd
D shuttle BPB to 205 And return
D BPB 161st st/River Ave
4 161st st/River Ave Woodlawn
4 Woodlawn 149th st/GC
2 149th st/GC 241st/Wakefield
2 241st st/Wakefield East 180th st
5 East 180th st Dyre Ave
5 Dyre Ave 125th st/Lex
6 125th st/Lex Pelham Bay Park
6 Pelham Bay Park 14th st/US
Q, Q exp or W 14th st/US 42nd st/TS
3 42ND St./TS 148th st/Lenox Term
3 148TH st/Lenox Term 42nd st/TS
W 42nd st/TS Astoria
N Astoria 86th st
N 86th st 59th st/4th Ave
R 59th st/4th ave 95th st/4th Ave
R 95th st/4th Ave 36th st/4th Ave
W 36th st Stillwell/CI
Shuttle Bus Stillwell/CI Avenue X
F Avenue X B’way-Lafayette
GSS B’way-Lafayette and return Return to B’way-Lafayette
F B’way-Lafayette 179th st.
F 179th st Union Turnpike
E Union Turnpike Jamaica Center
J Jamaica Center Myrtle
M Myrtle Metropolitan
M Metropolitan Broad St
Later on, when we arrive at 14th st/US from the S/B 6 train early Friday morning, we can double back on 4 and 5 express to 59th st/Lex (faster than the slow N or W from 14th st), go upstairs and do the N or W to Astoria and return on the N towards Brooklyn. BINGO!
The important thing now is when the trip is finished, we don't have that far to go home, Broad St is the expected finish line and I can take the M to Q express home. Good point!
Thats also if we are allowed to use the F shuttle.... I hope we are
So, automatically all those who couldn't MAKE the meeting were
eliminated by absence default..
Pbbbt.
Not true. I believe 3 out of the 4 who are going were NOT at the ERA meeting.
And I just wrote that that was untrue. Did you read Kool-D's first post on this subject, this past Thursday? It lists who is going and it's pretty clear there are more than three people.
I spoke to the woman beforehand and she said "Come to the ERA Meeting
where we will select our participants".
Can't make meeting sounded to = cut.
Which I did... but was told to go to the meeting.... which
I already told ya's I couldn't make... and me being a distant
cousin to anything ERA or BERA, I was pretty much DQ by absence default.
Curious how y'all got picked... no biggie.. THANKS for sharing.
Hope you all make us brahs PROUD!!
How about saving the F for last and do a loop from M, to J, to Queens via. E and back on the F.
W Coney Island-9th Ave or Pacific
M 9th Ave or Pacific-Metropolitan
M Metropolitan-B'way/Myrtle
J B'way/Myrtle-Jamaica Center
E Jamaica Center-Union Turnpike
F Union Turnpike-179th st
F 179th st-B'way Lafayette
GSS B'way Lafayette-Grand and return
F B'way-Lafayette-Avenue X END OF ROUTE
Plus we don't have to ride the excruciating F back and forth in Brooklyn, we do it on the last leg.
I am also making some minor revisions to the routing to save some time for late night travel.
Not like they're taking our brahs to shackle them up like gorillas.
Within fare control? Good luck on finding one you want to use. Actually, if you prepared correctly with the correct foods and beverages before beginning your trip, you would be able to go 30 hours without a bathroom stop.
Tom
30 hours? Maybe if you severely dehydrated yourself, but that could be dangerous.
Tip: If you need to use a subway bathroom use Grand Central (not upstairs) since it is a renovated station it might have an "avarage" bathroom.
Well anyway good luck to all participants and have a great railfan evening!
Flushing7
Peace,
ANDEE
R 34St-95St
R 95St-59St
N 59St-86St
N 86St-36St
W 36St-CI
Shuttle Bus
F Av X-Bway
S Bway<->Grand
F Bway-JH
7 JH-Main St
7 Main St-QBP
N QBP<->Astoria
7 QBP-Times
R Times-FH
F FH-179
F 179-UT
E UT-JC
J JC-Myrtle
M Myrtle-Metro
M Metro-Broad
M Broad-Canal
Q Canal-BB
BB-PP
S PP-Franklin
C Franklin-Hoyt
G Hoyt-Court
V Ely-47/50St
D 47/50St-205St
D 205St-161St
4 161St-Wood
4 Wood-149St
2 149St-241St
2 241St-180St
5 180St-Dyre
5 Dyre-125St
6 125St-PBP
6 PBP-CH
4 CH-Utica
3 Utica-New Lots
3 New Lots-Franklin
2 Franklin-Flatbush
2 Flatbush-Chambers
1 Chambers-CC-SF
1 SF-96St
3 96St<->148St
1 96St-VCP
1 VCP-168St
A 168St<->207St
C 168St-Euclid
A Euclid-Lefferts
A Lefferts-Rock Blvd
A Rock Blvd-FR
A FR-BC
S BC<->RP
A BC-ENY
L ENY-Canarsie
L Canarsie-6Av
F/V 14St-34St
You still have a good plan in my book.
R 34St-95St
R 95St-59St
N 59St-86St
N 86St-36St (Why go all the way to 36th st? Why not New Utrecht for the W and do W to 9th Ave and return?)
W 36St-CI
Shuttle Bus
F Av X-Bway
S Bway<->Grand
F Bway-JH
7 JH-Main St
7 Main St-QBP
N QBP<->Astoria
7 QBP-Times
R Times-FH
F FH-179
F 179-UT
E UT-JC
J JC-Myrtle
M Myrtle-Metro
M Metro-Broad
M Broad-Canal (It's repeating back to Canal, plus you can do this on the J too.)
Q Canal-BB
BB-PP
S PP-Franklin
C Franklin-Hoyt
G Hoyt-Court
V Ely-47/50St
D 47/50St-205St
D 205St-161St
4 161St-Wood
4 Wood-149St
2 149St-241St
2 241St-180St
5 180St-Dyre
5 Dyre-125St
6 125St-PBP
6 PBP-CH
4 CH-Utica
3 Utica-New Lots
3 New Lots-Franklin
2 Franklin-Flatbush
2 Flatbush-Chambers
1 Chambers-CC-SF
1 SF-96St
3 96St<->148St
1 96St-VCP
1 VCP-168St
A 168St<->207St
C 168St-Euclid
A Euclid-Lefferts
A Lefferts-Rock Blvd
A Rock Blvd-FR
A FR-BC
S BC<->RP
A BC-ENY
L ENY-Canarsie
L Canarsie-6Av (What about 8th Ave? That must be covered.)
F/V 14St-34St (You already covered the F from B'way-Lafayette to Roosevelt-JH on the on the earlier part of the trip so this is not needed, might as well end the trip at 8th Ave station on the L.)
If you change at New Utrecht you will skip the stations 9Av, FtHP,
50St, 55St cos the shuttle bus is used.
M Metro-Broad
M Broad-Canal (It's repeating back to Canal, plus you can do this on the J too.)
I know it. If a J departs earlier you will save time.
L Canarsie-6Av (What about 8th Ave? That must be covered.)
F/V 14St-34St (You already covered the F from B'way-Lafayette to Roosevelt-JH on the on the earlier part of the trip so this is not needed, might as well end the trip at 8th Ave station on the L.)
Done it to get a loop. I've thought passing 14St with C counts for
the 8 Av L station. So the "end" :
L Canarise-8Av
L 8 Av-US
N/W/Q/R US-34St
Big problem, but i'm thinking about it:
R Times Sq-Forest Hills
Late nights is no service on the 60 St tunnel connector to QP
R 34St-95St (Late nights: W 34St-36St)
R 95St-59St
N 59St-86St
N 86St-36St
W 36St-CI
Shuttle Bus
F Av X-Bway
S Bway<->Grand
F Bway-JH
7 JH-Main St
7 Main St-QBP
N/W QBP<->Astoria
7 QBP-Times
R Times-FH (Late Nights: no 60St connector service!)
F FH-179
F 179-UT
E UT-JC
J JC-Myrtle
M Myrtle-Metro
M Metro-Broad (Evening/Nights J Myrtle-Broad;weekends no service Canal-Broad)
M Broad-Canal (weekends no J/M service)
Q Canal-BB
Q BB-PP
S PP-Franklin
C Franklin-Hoyt
G Hoyt-Court
E Ely-7Av
D 7Av-205St
D 205St-161St
4 161St-Wood
4 Wood-149St
2 149St-241St
2 241St-180St
5 180St-Dyre
5 Dyre-125St
6 125St-PBP
6 PBP-CH
4 CH-Utica
3 Utica-New Lots (late nights 4)
3 New Lots-Franklin (late nights 4)
2 Franklin-Flatbush
2 Flatbush-Chambers
1 Chambers-CC-SF
1 SF-96St
3 96St<->148St (no late night service)
1 96St-VCP
1 VCP-168St
A 168St<->207St
C 168St-Euclid (late night A)
A Euclid-Lefferts
A Lefferts-Rock Blvd
A Rock Blvd-FR
A FR-BC
S BC<->RP
A BC-ENY
L ENY-Canarsie
L Canarsie-8Av
L 8Av-US
W/N/R/Q US-34St
We do not make this trip on the weekend so we don't have to worry about Broad and Fulton closures on the J.
The 3 train to Lenox terminal may be a time problem, we might be on 96th st at 5 AM and there is no Uptown 3 service until after 5:45 PM from 96th st/Broadway.
I have to do a mock time point for each leg just as I have done for the original routing to see if it's doable.
The decision between me, R30 and skfny for the route will be final, hopefully we can all agree on this tommorrow.
I would be very proud if you ride the (my) Loop.
There is a service advisory for the late night #2 line in the Bronx that is not posted on the MTA web site. There is single tracking in effect Midnight to 5AM all this week from north of 135th st (where the #2 switches off from the #3) to just before 3rd Ave/East 149th st. All trains use the S/B track and the N/B platform at 149th st/GC is closed.
I think the best starting point is GC with the (6) -> CH or
(6) - >PBP (reverse loop)
I'm going to calculate it. Current i start at 148St/Lenox with
calculating. The shuttle bus is going to be reached at 9:35pm
Found a little error in a part of my loop:
"1 Chambers-CC-SF"
sould be
"1 Chambers-SF"
a little reminder of the construction (1/3/A/C CC-Bronx-Loop)
Starting at 148St/Lenox in the "downreading" order end at the
late night hole of the 60 St tunnel connector.
I calculate the reverse order
R Times-FH (Late Nights: no 60St connector service!)
F FH-179 0140 0150 *2220 2230
F 179-UT 0120 0130
E UT-JC 0100 0110
J JC-Myrtle 0020 0050
M Myrtle-Metro 2355 0010
M Metro-Myrtle 2335 2350
J Myrtle-Broad 2305 2325
J Broad-Canal 2255 2300
Q Canal-BB 2210 2245
Q BB-PP 2140 2205
S PP-Franklin 2125 2135
C Franklin-Hoyt 2110 2120
G Hoyt-Court 2045 2105
E Ely-7Av 2030 2035
D 7Av-205St 1945 2025
D 205St-161St 1925 1940
4 161St-Wood 1905 1920
4 Wood-149St 1840 1900
2 149St-241St 1810 1840
2 241St-180St 1750 1805
5 180St-Dyre 1735 1745
5 Dyre-125St 1650 1730
6 125St-PBP 1610 1640
6 PBP-CH 1505 1605 *GC 1200 1245
4 CH-Utica 1440 1500
3 Utica-New Lots 1425 1435
3 New Lots-Franklin 1400 1420
2 Franklin-Flatbush 1340 1355
2 Flatbush-Chambers 1305 1335
1 Chambers-SF 1255 1300
1 SF-96St 1220 1250
3 96St-148St 1200 1215
With F Shuttle Bus
Route From To Approx Time
3 148th st/Lenox Term. Times Square 1030
1 Times Square SF loop 1050
1 SF Loop Chambers 1100
2 Chambers Flatbush 1130
2 Flatbush Franklin 1150
3 Franklin New Lots 1220
3 New Lots Utica 1240
4 Utica BB/CH 110
6 BB/CH 14th st/US 120
Q local 14th st/US Brighton Beach 200
Q Exp Brighton Beach PP 220
Shuttle PP Franklin 240
C Franklin Hoyt/Scher. 300
C Hoyt Scher Euclid 330
A Euclid Rockaways or Lefferts 400
A Rockaways or Lefferts Rockaway Blvd (for other leg to cover) 420
A From FR or Lefferts Broadway Junction 550
L Broadway Junction Rockaway Parkway 610
L Rockaway Parkway 8th Avenue 700
A or C 14th St 59th St/CC 720
C 59th st/CC Chambers (set foot on WTC and return to Chambers) 740
A or C Chambers Hoyt Scher. 810
G Hoyt Scher. Court Square 850
E 23rd/Ely 7th Ave/53rd st 910
E 7th Ave/53rd st Queens Plaza 930
R or V Queens Plaza Roosevelt/JH 950
7 74th st/Roosevelt Main St/Flushing 1020
7 Main St Times Sqaure 1100
1 Times Square 242/VCP 1140
1 242nd VCP 168th st 1210
A 168th srt 207th st 1240
A 207th st 59th st/CC 130
D 59th st/CC Bedford Pk Blvd 210
D shuttle BPB to 205 And return 230
D BPB 161st st/River Ave 300
4 161st st/River Ave Woodlawn 340
4 Woodlawn 149th st/GC 420
2 149th st/GC 241st/Wakefield 510
2 241st st/Wakefield East 180th st 540
5 East 180th st Dyre Ave 600
5 Dyre Ave 125th st/Lex 630
6 125th st/Lex Pelham Bay Park 710
6 Pelham Bay Park 14th st/US 820
4 or 5 14th st/US 59th St/Lex 840
W 59th st/Lex Astoria 900
N Astoria 86th st 1010
N 86th st 59th st/4th Ave 1040
R 59th st/4th ave 95th st/4th Ave 1100
R 95th st/4th Ave 36th st/4th Ave 1130
W 36th st Stillwell/CI 1200
Shuttle Bus Stillwell/CI Avenue X 1220
F Avenue X B’way-Lafayette 100
GSS B’way-Lafayette and return Return to B’way-Lafayette 120
F B’way-Lafayette Roosevelt/JH 200
R or V Roosevelt/JH 71st/Continental 220
F 71st/Continetal 179th St. 240
F 179th St. Union Turnpike 300
E Union Turnpike Jamaica Center 310
J Jamaica Center Myrtle 340
M Myrtle Metropolitan 410
M Metropolitan Broad St 500
Without F Shuttle Bus
Route From To Approx Time
3 148th st/Lenox Term. Times Square
1 Times Square SF loop
1 SF Loop Chambers
2 Chambers Flatbush
2 Flatbush Franklin
3 Franklin New Lots
3 New Lots Utica
4 Utica BB/CH
6 BB/CH 14th st/US
Q local 14th st/US Brighton Beach
Q Exp Brighton Beach PP
Shuttle PP Franklin
C Franklin Hoyt/Scher.
C Hoyt Scher Euclid
A Euclid Rockaways or Lefferts
A Rockaways or Lefferts Rockaway Blvd (for other leg to cover)
A From FR or Lefferts Broadway Junction
L Broadway Junction Rockaway Parkway
L Rockaway Parkway 8th Avenue
A or C 14th St 59th St/CC
C 59th st/CC Chambers (set foot on WTC station and return)
A or C Chambers Hoyt-Scher.
G Hoyt Scher. Court Square
E 23rd/Ely 7th Ave/53rd st
E 7th Ave/53rd st Queens Plaza
R or V Queens Plaza Roosevelt/JH
7 74th st/Roosevelt Main St/Flushing
7 Main St Times Sqaure
1 Times Square 242/VCP
1 242nd VCP 168th st
A 168th srt 207th st
A 207th st 59th st/CC
D 59th st/CC Bedford Pk Blvd
D shuttle BPB to 205 And return
D BPB 161st st/River Ave
4 161st st/River Ave Woodlawn
4 Woodlawn 149th st/GC
2 149th st/GC 241st/Wakefield
2 241st st/Wakefield East 180th st
5 East 180th st Dyre Ave
5 Dyre Ave 125th st/Lex
6 125th st/Lex Pelham Bay Park
6 Pelham Bay Park 14th st/US
4 or 5 14th st/US 59th St/Lex
W 59th st/Lex Astoria
N Astoria 86th st
N 86th st 59th st/4th Ave
R 59th st/4th ave 95th st/4th Ave
R 95th st/4th Ave 36th st/4th Ave
W 36th st Stillwell/CI
W Stillwell/CI 9th Ave or Pacific
M 9th Ave or Pacific Metropolitan
M Metropolitan Myrtle-Broadway
J Myrtle-Broadway Jamaica Center
E Jamaica Center Union Turnpike
F Union Turnpike 179th st
F 179th st 71st/Continental
R or V 71st/Continental Roosevelt/JH
F Roosevelt/JH B’way-Lafayette
GSS B’way-Lafayette Grand St and return
F B’way-Lafayette Avenue X
Yikes.
(Then they can ride the 2/3 express between 72nd and 96th, since they'll also be hitting 79th on the W.)
I don't think that's right. Each station complex counts as one station.
S GC-Times
1 Times-96St 1200 1210
3 96St-148St 1215 1230 ***
3 148St-96St 1235 1250 ***
1 96St-VCP 1255 1330
1 VCP-168St 1335 1350
A 168St-207St 1355 1405
A 207St-168St 1410 1420
C 168St-Euclid 1425 1530
A Euclid-Lefferts 1540 1550
A Lefferts-Rock Blvd 1555 1600
A Rock Blvd-FR 1610 1640
A FR-BC 1645 1700
S BC-RP 1710 1720
S RP-BC 1725 1730
A BC-ENY 1740 1810
L ENY-Canarsie 1815 1825
L Canarsie-8Av 1830 1910
L 8Av-US 1915 1920
R US-FH 1925 2010 ***
F FH-179
F 179-UT
E UT-JC
J JC-Myrtle
M Myrtle-Metro
M Metro-Broad (Evening/Nights J Myrtle-Broad;weekends no service Canal-Broad)
M Broad-Canal (weekends no J/M service)
Q Canal-BB
Q BB-PP
S PP-Franklin
C Franklin-Hoyt
G Hoyt-Court
E Ely-7Av
D 7Av-205St
D 205St-161St
4 161St-Wood
4 Wood-149St
2 149St-241St
2 241St-180St
5 180St-Dyre
5 Dyre-125St
6 125St-PBP
6 PBP-US
R US-95St (Late nights: W US-36St)
R 95St-59St
N 59St-86St
N 86St-36St
W 36St-CI
Shuttle Bus
F Av X-Bway
S Bway<->Grand
F Bway-JH
7 JH-Main St
7 Main St-QBP
N/W QBP<->Astoria
7 QBP-Times
1 Times-SF
1 SF-Chambers
2 Cahmbers-Flatbush
2 Flatbush-Franklin
3 Franklin-New Lots (late nights 4)
3 New Lots-Utica (late nights 4)
4 Utica-CH
6 CH-GC
DATE: Thursday, July 24 @ 12 Noon
Starting Location: 148th st/Lenox Terminal on the #3 line
Route From To Approx Time
3 148th st/Lenox Term. Times Square 12:20 PM
1 Times Square SF loop 12:45 PM
1 SF Loop Chambers 12:55 PM
2 Chambers Flatbush 1:25 PM
2 Flatbush Franklin 1:45 PM
3 Franklin New Lots 2:05 PM
3 New Lots Utica 2:20 PM
4 Utica BB/CH 2:50 PM
6 BB/CH 42ND St/GC 3:00 PM
TS/GCS Grand Central Times Square 3:10 PM
Q local 42nd st/Times Square Brighton Beach 4:00 PM
Q Exp Brighton Beach PP 4:20PM
FAS PP Franklin 4:30PM
C Franklin Hoyt/Scher. 4:50 PM
C Hoyt Scher Euclid 5:10 PM
A Euclid Broad Channel 5:30 PM
RPS Broad Channel Rockaway Park 5:45 PM
RPS Rockaway Park Broad Channel 6:00 PM
A Broad Channel Far Rockaway 6:20 PM
A Far Rockaway Rockaway Blvd (for other leg to cover) 6:50 PM
A Rockaway Blvd Lefferts Blvd 7:00 PM
A Lefferts Blvd Broadway Junction 7:30 PM
L Broadway Junction Rockaway Parkway 7:45 PM
L Rockaway Parkway 8th Avenue 8:30 PM
A or C 14th St 59th St/CC 8:50 PM
C 59th st/CC Chambers (set foot on WTC station and return) 9:10 PM
A or C Chambers Hoyt-Scher. 9:30 PM
G Hoyt Scher. Court Square 10:00 PM
E 23rd/Ely 7th Ave/53rd st 10:10 PM
E 7th Ave/53rd st Queens Plaza 10:25 PM
G, R or V Queens Plaza Roosevelt/JH 10:40 PM
7 74th st/Roosevelt Main St/Flushing 11:00 PM
7 Main St Times Sqaure 11:45 PM
1 Times Square 242/VCP 12:25 AM
1 242nd VCP 168th st 1:00 AM
A 168th srt 207th st 1:20 AM
A 207th st 59th st/CC 2:00 AM
D 59th st/CC Bedford Pk Blvd 2:40 AM
D shuttle BPB to 205 And return 3:00 AM
D BPB 161st st/River Ave 3:25 AM
4 161st st/River Ave Woodlawn 4:00 AM
4 Woodlawn 149th st/GC 4:40 AM
2 149th st/GC 241st/Wakefield 5:25 AM
2 241st st/Wakefield East 180th st 5:50 AM
5 East 180th st Dyre Ave 6:20 AM
5 Thru Exp. Dyre Ave 125th st/Lex 7:00 AM
6 Local 125th st/Lex Pelham Bay Park 7:30 AM
6 Exp. Pelham Bay Park 42nd st/GC 8:30 AM
4 5 or 6 42nd st/GC 59th St/Lex 8:40 AM
W 59th st/Lex Astoria 9:00 AM
N Astoria 86th st 10:20 AM
N 86th st 59th st/4th Ave 10:50 AM
R 59th st/4th ave 95th st/4th Ave 11:10 AM
R 95th st/4th Ave 36th st/4th Ave 11:30 AM
W 36th st Stillwell/CI 12 Noon
W Stillwell/CI 9th Ave or Pacific 12:25 PM
M 9th Ave or Pacific Essex St/Delancey 1:00 PM
F Delancey/Essex B’way Lafayette 1:10 PM
GSS B’way/Lafayette Grand St. and return 1:30 PM
F B’way/Lafayette Roosevelt Ave/JH 2:10 PM
R or V Roosevelt Ave/JH 71st/Continental Aves 2:30 PM
F 71st/Continental Aves 179th st 2:50 PM
F 179th st Union Turnpike 3:15 PM
E Union Turnpike Jamaica Center 3:30 PM
J Jamaica Center Myrtle/Broadway 4:10 PM
M Myrtle/Broadway Metropolitan 4:30 PM
M Metropolitan Essex/Delancey 5:10 PM
F Delancey/Essex Avenue X END OF ROUTE 6:00 PM
END OF ROUTE: Avenue X/Culver Line
No, it's a taping for a show to be aired on the Discovery/NY Times channel to be aired in October.
Good luck to Kool-D, Choo Choo, and everyone else on this daring trip.
Thank you very much, however Choo Choo will only be joining us for part of the trip as a spectator. Hopefully if we are not too late, Choo Choo can meet us at the finish line in Brooklyn, but for him, it's really cutting it close at this point if we tread at the six o'clock hour.
I don't have cable for my personal reasons but check the channel guide of your cable or satellite provider, it should be there.
Assume we don't experience any delays or scheduling problems, we can finish everything and be at Avenue X by 4:30 PM, 5 PM at the latest.
I looked at the NYCT subway schedules to confirm travel time between points, and add 5-15 minutes for waiting time for each leg, depending on line we are waiting for the next train and time of day.
You can catch up on a computer or a mobile phone as I input where we at, who dropped out (hopefully nobody), and what adventures we are experiencing.
Follow these simple steps:
1. Go to the
For want of a quotation mark (") a link was lost. :-)
Tom
Follow these simple steps:
1. Go to the
...
W 59th st/Lex Astoria 9:00 AM
N Astoria 86th st 10:20 AM
N 86th st 59th st/4th Ave 10:50 AM
R 59th st/4th ave 95th st/4th Ave 11:10 AM
R 95th st/4th Ave 36th st/4th Ave 11:30 AM
W 36th st Stillwell/CI 12 Noon
W Stillwell/CI 9th Ave or Pacific 12:25 PM
M 9th Ave or Pacific Essex St/Delancey 1:00 PM
...
Be careful about this part...don't accidentally skip 25, Prospect, 9, and Union...maybe you meant to say 36th St instead of Pacific?
But.... let's leave a bit of legroom during the overnight 20 min headways...
2. One you registered your handle, you might want to link it to your mobile phone. This way you can receive text or WAP messages on your phone when you are outside.
3. My group is NYC Subway Stories, perform a search on the Upoc homepage from your computer. Then when you found my group (I have a different handle for my use when I am in Upco.) join that group.
4. Now you are all set
1. Go to www.upoc.com and register your handle and password.
2. One you registered your handle, you might want to link it to your mobile phone. This way you can receive text or WAP messages on your phone when you are outside.
3. My group is NYC Subway Stories, perform a search on the Upoc homepage from your computer. Then when you found my group (I have a different handle for my use when I am in Upco.) join that group.
4. Now you are all set
Then mmy mind can rest at ease and assuming no one drops out, we all can brag we conquered North America's largest subway system.
From a GREY-haired Englishman.......
Ha ha, you say that now......
1. if you go thru city hall IRT station you get 5 bonus points plus you get to "bank" one station (i.e. can skip one other station)
2. if you get to go on the new Q track at Stillwell you get 10 bonus points but no stations to "bank"
3. if you get arrested you get to rejoin the group, if you can find them, without penalty
4. if you give a visitor a credit card he can leave the train, buy you White Castle food, and then meet you again as you double-back
5. if you convince a mystical chik to ride the remainder of the trip with you, you get 15 bonus points and the medal of valor
I have to go move my laundry to the dryer now. I'll try to type up more of the rules later.
Double points and a platinum medal if you're Qtrain.
Due to the length of this trip, I doubt that you will see any posts about this trip until saturday
Stop 1 of 468
Lenox Ave. One station out of 468. Each with its own story and thousands of people to call it their own. We start our journey now, to visit all of these stations and experience the city from its always-open transportation system. 5 of the 7 members have arrived. Signal problems on the 3 mark an ominous start.
The R-142(A)'s aren't replacing the R-62(A)'s, only the Redbirds. Why would anyone expect them to show up on all lines?
Because we're not worthy of hideous torture.
1
Some just stink worse, gramps!
Once CBTC is in place within the next 3-4 years, I suspect an equipment swap between the #2 and #7 lines would take place for CBTC to be effective. So the #2 line will have R62A's and the #7 line will have the early R142 cars in the not too distant future.
I am not obsessed with it (I haven't brought this up in a while), I just like knowing that there is an off peak <5> that makes the services 'balanced'
Unusual routings like the 5 from 242nd Street on the #1 line are good to have
the main reason that train is special is NOT Utica, but the fact that it was going to E 238 at a time where all trains were going to Dyre, also 3 different 5 trains were going to 3 different terminals 1 to Dyre, 1 to E 180th Street, 1 to E 238th Street (and 2 #5 trains in a row were not going to Dyre, the ONLY time of day where that is scheduled to happen)
Also the same #2 train now runs up to E 238th as a #2 (probably) signed for E 241st! that is NOT good as the r-142s are supposed to be so great, the redbirds were better than this
and the current 8:59 Utica only goes to E 180th Street
Unusual routings from the 5 are not good. Ever see a 5 train on the local track and a 9 train on the express track at 72nd and Broadway? It isn't a pretty sight.
No. What were they doing there?
That train signed as a 5 from 242st to Flatbush (it was actually considered a 1, but it was signed as a 5 for its return trip to the Bronx) was last scheduled to run on 9/12/02. The 9 didn't return to service until 9/15/02. Not to mention that the 9 has no business being on the express track in the first place!
So whatever you saw, it was an unscheduled fluke. A strange one, too: a rerouted 5 would typically end up on the express track, and even when 9's are sent express, they almost always stay on the local track.
Or is the idea that the 9 had some hope of getting back on schedule, but the 5 was already a lost cause?
Still, it's strange. Nothing is ever send local in these parts to fill a gap in local service -- until a 5 comes wandering over from the East Side.
I just find it a bit funny, given that attitude, that a rerouted 5 train would be sent local.
I do not know if the following 1 and 9 trains also went express and if they did, how far they went until making local stops.
An equipment switch between the 7 and the 2 is completely unnecessary.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
http://www.railwayage.com/apr01/cbtc.html
http://www.tsd.org/communic.htm
I am trying to imagine, for example, on the #7 line, how many more tph would be allowed by a switch to a CBTC system. Now, indirectly again, CBTC would permit some more flexibility. A common problem on this line, which I understand is a candidate for CBTC conversion in the morning rush is that local and express trains come to the merge point past 33rd Street-maybe CBTC could anticipate this in advance and try to get the express to move faster. But if the train is already going as fast as it can this would not help (a faster train with better braking would however). Better scheduling might be only way to resolve this and even then it is subject to broken trains and other incidents. I can't see how CBTC would allow greater speeds through grades or through bottlenecks like the switches at Main Street. This is just one thought experiment, and I do not think myself to be a great thinker but I cannot see how CBTC could improve capacity other than marginally doing so. Can it?
The first link provides:
"The problem with wayside signals is that trains are separated by at least two signal blocks, regardless of speed, and the spacing of the signals is no less than the stopping distance of the worst-braking train for the territory. This means that the time between successive trains is an inverse function of train speed.
In a moving block system, train spacing is determined more by the braking distance of the individual train: the faster the train speed, the longer the stopping distance; the slower the train speed, the shorter the stopping distance. As a result, the train headway is much more constant over a wide range of train speeds."
I can't read that as suggesting anything other than marginal capacity increases. Now maybe I am reading it wrong-you should correct me if I am. I can only read that right now as implying that distance between slow moving trains will be reduced allowing a marginal improvement in headways versus a system where trains may get stuck standing still more often at fixed block red signals. My comment previously was to remark on why the MTA has not chosen to improve braking on its trains, thereby directly increasing headways. Thus my harping on the term "marginal". Maybe if NYCT were operating with other FRA rolling stock then CBTC would have even more use. But as things stand I have to confess I do not see how CBTC will allow the Queens Boulevard Express or the Flushing Line or the East Side IRT to operate much shorter headways. Shorter headways maybe, but MUCH shorter I have my doubts about.
"No matter how well balanced a signal layout may be, when a temporary speed restriction is applied, it will cause an additional separation of trains at that point. With moving-block, successive trains will be able to close up faster, because of the shorter braking distance at slower speeds."
That sounds an awful lot like a more efficient system of NYC's current station time I think. Will it help things out significantly?
"In CBTC, a train pacing module can use the more accurate dispatching predictions to compute an optimum operating speed so that the train will not arrive at the point of conflict until the condition has cleared. The fuel saved by operating toward points of potential conflict at a more efficient speed can amount to a significant benefit."
Previously I used the example of a merge point on the Flushing line to wonder about this. As I read this, it sounds like it would say, in that context, "slow the local train and move the express faster insofar as it is safe." My question was whether better scheduling would be needed too and whether ultimately that was the more efficent way to go in some cases. This feature would be useful at certain merge points though (the one at Queens Plaza SB between the E and V comes to mind.
I would like to hear about what CBTC can and cannot do. Some totally write it off and others act like it will add something like 20 more tph to the Flushing line. I don't see myself as being in either camp but I think we would all gain by a discussion of how CBTC can improve headways on the NYC system and not in the abstract. If we could use concrete examples of the NYC system in that discussion it would be much more persuasive and worthwhile.
What your post doesn't acknowledge, though, is that these marginal benefits are additive during the day. Recall that a very small delay, replicated 30 times or 100 times, becomes a huge backlog. Prevent that delay in the first place, and you eliminate the cascade which resulted in the backlog.
A friend of mine designed a program which shortened the amount of taxiing an airliner had to do upon landing, by more efficiently assigning its gate. Each airliner burned a little bit less fuel per taxi - a marginal imrovement. By the end of the day, though, with dozens of airliners per terminal doing this, the airline found out it saved $100,000 every 24 hours in jet fuel. $100,000 per day times 30 days is $3 million per month or $36 million per year - at one airport!
"My comment previously was to remark on why the MTA has not chosen to improve braking on its trains, thereby directly increasing headways. Thus my harping on the term "marginal".
And how do you know how and why MTA made this choice?
My point here is that you are repeating a lot of stuff that appears on Subtalk, written by people who never even tried to look up the rationale for decisions, are not experts on anything in particular, but would like to run the subway themselves much better than the people currently running it.
You may or may not like FRA rules, but that really has no place in this discussion anyway. NYCT doesn't follow FRA.
I agree with your closing remark that CBTC needs a serious assessment. I hope that the L line experiment will show us what CBTC can do. If the benefits are not there, MTA need not install it elsewhere. Your point is sensible.
But please don't just repeat MTA-bashing rants about their use of CBTC or choice of brakes unless you do some homework first. Contact MTA and Bombardier, look at braking on Chicago's transit lines or LA's transit lines; get some feedback from their people about this (they'll talk to you, trust me).
My guess is your spare time will be tied up for a month or two doing that. But at least you won't be posting the kind of silly nonsense that armchair subway directors post here a lot.
All I am saying is that CBTC are doing themselves a disservice by conceding there exist direct options for increasing capacity without commenting on why their approach is better. Maybe you and I have the patience to inquire about these things? Will others? If CBTC really is the way of the future then its going to have to be better explained I think.
I close by saying that alot of this talk maybe premature though. Let us see how the great experiment on the L line turns out too. Is there any preliminary word yet?
It is possible that CBTC would make more of a difference on lines where there are not frequent stops (for example, if CBTC eliminated the need to slow down on an express train several times). On the other hand, maybe that's not true.
I don't think CBTC is active yet on the BMT Canarsie Line. I don't know where they are on installation.
CBTC would be able to do things that the current signal system cannot do example add more trains particularly on a high volume express route like the Lexington Av line. Sure it won't be flawless [nothing really is] but it should have great benefits in the future.
Now for my comment.....
WTF you mean they gonna fucking swap fleets??? Thats some bullshit!!! If anything the MTA will get new cars for the 7 Line instead of stealing them from the 2 Line, and why would they do that in the first place? They have to replace interior signs and what not and put in new announcements which cost $$$$!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Ok, then.
WTF you mean they gonna fucking swap fleets??? Thats some bullshit!!! If anything the MTA will get new cars for the 7 Line instead of stealing them from the 2 Line, and why would they do that in the first place? They have to replace interior signs and what not and put in new announcements which cost $$$$!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
It isn't 'BS' at all. The MTA will move cars as they see fit. There is no confirmed report of the MTA purchasing cars for the 7 yet, so hold tight on that claim. If you read Kool-D's post, he mentioned the switch would be done to test CBTC on the 7.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
By the way, 11-car R142/A sets aren't a problem. As indicated in the R142/A section in this site, they can be coupled into 11-car sets.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
The 7th Avenue Line isn't getting CBTC anytime soon. Assuming the Canarsie line experiment goes well, next will be Flushing, followed by Lex. That is why the Lex has 100% R-142/A. The (6) needs them much more than the (2) does. IMO, the (2) should never have received them in the first place. But for whatever reason, they cannot currently go to the (7), and the shops/yards that serve the (2)(5) lines in the Bronx were modified to accomodate the R-142/A fleet, so it kinda makes sense for them to be put there rather than say, the (3) or the 42nd St Shuttle. But if they fix whatever problem causes R-142/A's to be banned from Flushing, they will probably swap fleets in a heartbeat, especially with electronic LED signs that can quickly be reset to local or express, ending many current problems.
David
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Seems to me that the MTA does not forsee any sort of retrofitting of the IRT until at least the R142's need replacing. IMO the MTA should've bitten the bullet and done a step by step IRT system-wide retrofitting.
Now before anyone starts belly aching about the pricetag and the requisite headaches it'll cause, I still say it's worth it.
What other project could streamline and add capacity at the same time?
Here are the IRT sections that can handle BMT/IND trains after shaving off a little bit from the platforms:
-Lexinton Line North of Grand Central (including GC).
-7th Ave Line South of Times Square (including TS, and excluding South Ferry station).
-All of the Bronx Els, except the West Farms portion of the 2/5 line (The White Plains Line north of E180 and the Dyre Line can handle it).
-The entire Queens portion of the 7 Line - ***See Below. (excluding the Stienway tunnels and the Manhattan portion of the line).
-The 2/3 line from Chambers to Borough Hall, including the Clark Street tunnel.
-The Brooklyn IRT east of Atlantic Avenue (including the Livonia El to New Lots, and the Flatbush Line)
So in summary, THESE are the lines (below) that mess up the IRT, and banish it to narrow cars - relatively a small part of the IRT:
The Contract 1 and 2 lines which include:
-The 7th Ave-Broadway Line North of Times Square to 242 Street
-The 3 line from 96th to Lenox
-The 2 line from 135th to East 180th Street
-The Lexington line south of Grand Central (including South Ferry, which was originally built as part of the Contract 2 portion of what is now the Lexington Line)
-The Joraleman (4/5) tunnel under the River to Atlantic Ave
-The 42nd Street Shuttle
Finally:
The 7 Line from Times Square to Vernon Jackson
**Note the only part I'm not sure about is the underground portion of the 7 line from Vernon Jackson to Queens Plaza. Someone else will have to finish one of the lists with that information.
Any temprorary shutdowns can be offset by shuttle buses, reliance on nearby B division lines, and a large dose of patience & public relations. Any work on the Lex should only be done when and if the 2nd Ave subway is built.
I've been on crush loaded late night 1/2 trains, running on 10-minute (combined) headways.
My home station is a local station, not the busiest on the line, and less busy than a number of East Side stations. It has over 5 million annual fare registrations.
If Broadway were shut down to general traffic and a steady stream of articulated buses ran in place of the subway, the buses would still be severely overloaded.
(And where are all these buses supposed to come from?)
The nearby IND lines aren't terribly nearby, they run to different places than the IRT, and they only have two usable tracks parallel to the busiest segment of the IRT.
I'd love to have wider trains, but it's simply impractical.
A more practical idea for the future is 15-car IRT trains. Most local stops wouldn't be lengthened. At some stations, the north 10 cars would platform; at others, the south 10 cars would platform. Passengers between two north-end or south-end platforms could ride in the north or south ends of the train; passengers between one north-end platform and one south-end platform would have to ride in the more crowded middle section.
Many other details would have to be worked out as well. I just gave the skeleton.
BTW, the idea's not mine. Credit goes to Bill Vickrey.
We're talking long-term here. There's time for everything to change.
Those shuttle bus operations would just be overloaded and would drag on for YEARS costing the MTA millions in salary, operationg costs, etc. Example on the Lenox line, I remember when the renovations of 1998 were done, the shuttle bus was a BIG operation. Its too much to ask for in terms of converting IRT clearances.
(1)
A new (8) connector to connect the trackage near Simpson St (2)(5) with Elder Avenue (6). There are several ways this could be done. This would give people on the Pelham line access to the west side. This would even allow for a possible (3) connection to the East Bronx(unlikely though). The (8) would run from a separate elevated trackage at 149th Street-Grand Councourse/Mott Avenue connecting to the (2)/(5) shortly after 3rd Avenue when the WPR line becomes elevated. At nights this would also allow the (5) train to connect to the (4) without going into Manhattan
(2)
Another cheaper idea would be a separate station at Southern Blvd (8) and Whitlock Avenue(6)(8)(separate trackage/station with HEETS) could be made as a shuttle(could be S) over the part of Westchester Avenue with no service. This would have one track connecting it with the Pelham line(M track) in order to use the Westchester Yard. There will be new crossovers from Simpson St(2)(5) to Southern Blvd (8)(or S) inside fare control and Whitlock Avenue will have a stairway connecting the (8) above the (6) line
(3)
A 163rd Street Shuttle connecting Intervale Avenue-163rd Street (2)(5) and Hunts Point Avenue(6) stations, with free in system connecting transfers
these ideas would help many people, especially on weekends, when they will have to change from the (6) to the (2) or even (5) in Bronx relieves crowding at 125th Street and allows people to get from the (2) to the (6)
which idea do you like better?
I think #1 seems better since it also gives WPR and Pelham more options
Also the (8) would terminate at E 177th Street(off peak) and run express to from/to Pelham Bay Park during rush hours and Summer Weekends only
First, at rush hour, there are approximatly 10-20 trains using both M track and either side trackage - to attempt Westchester Avenue connector services at anything more than 4 TPH at this point would severely tie up the Pelham line, and that's not mentioning the havoc that will be brought to the 2/5 at Simpson Street. Throw that in, and not only will the 2 be slowed down, but the 5 Thru Express as well. Keep in mind now that this is two already slow Lexington Av trains with heavy ridership through the Central Bronx getting slower.
Second, can the cost of this be justified? The contruction along Westchester Avenue or 163rd street probably will not endear the MTA to many locals, and the disruptions caused by the pushing through of the lines at key points would equally wreak havoc on riders on all the aformentioned lines.
IMV, increased bus service should be adqeuate to get people from the 2/5 to the 6 and vice versa.
three tracks Hunts Point-Sipmson -> (6) to 241 and Dyre
three tracks Simpson-Whitlock -> (2)/(5) to Pelham
between Hunts Point and Whitlock only one track for relays
at Simpson no interlocking - only a bridge
2nd El service on the Westchester Ave portion of the White Plains Road line only went to Freeman St during rush hour service. However, the (empty) train went further north to the Bronx Park stub station to turn back to the 2nd/3rd Ave El structure at 143rd St via the Bergen St/Willis Ave connecting structure. In 1940, with the demolition of the 2nd Ave El, the 3rd Ave El trains continued that pattern until Nov 5, 1946. The Bergen St/Willis Ave connecting structure remained unused until 1950/51, when it was demolished, along with the Bronx Park stub stations on both the 3rd Ave El line and the White Plains Road Line. There was also a lay-up yard just below the Bronx Park station at Southern Blvd north of the 177th St Station.
This was an interesting aspect of the consolidation of the IRT Manhattan and Bronx subway and elevated systems. The first portion of that consolidation was the original opening of the Westchester Ave elevated structure of what would become the White Plains Road line to Bronx Park on Southern Blvd. A junction at the 149th St El station was constructed across 149th St to the new Westchester Ave subway el structure. The Harlem River tunnel was not completed yet, when the el connection was made in 1904. The 149th St connecting structure was superceded by The Bergen St/Willis Ave connecting structure in 1917. At some point in time 3rd Ave El service to Bronx Park on the Westchester Ave line was discontinued and only the 2nd Ave Rush hour service to Freeman St remained.
The second portion of the consolidation of the IRT Manhattan and Bronx subway and elevated systems was the 9th Ave El connection to the Jerome Ave Line at 155th St, which became known as the Polo Grounds Shuttle. One can read the history of this line in the NYC Subway topics.
Timing.
Bill "Newkirk"
Irish spring !
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah, too bad I didn't have mine. They were moving, though they weren't posed for pictures either!
Some people on the platform were give the train some wierd looks. Like what's the #7 doing down here when it's supposed to be upstairs.
Bill "Newkirk"
What does that mean?
Now, how this relates to the IRT local track south of Brooklyn Bridge I can't address.
Still there is, apparently, a way to construct a turnout that can be taken at full speed. One of these days, try taking an F/V going south from 42nd. The southbound 6 Ave local takes a turnout coming out of 42nd. The straight-through path is actually a crossover to the express track. To remain on the local the train takes that turnout.
Every time I ride through on the F -- either an R46 or R32 consist -- it always takes the turnout at full speed. When the doors are closed, it's full power, hold on to your hats, and don't let go until you're at 34th. If you're standing and aren't grabbing something, you'll get knocked off your feet.
Another one is the southbound #6 local leaving Grand Central. Unless there's congestion ahead, it plows at full speed through the turnout to the connection off the 42nd street shuttle tracks. Again, you better grab something if you're standing, or you'll get knocked off your feet.
Last time I headed out on the PATH to Newark riding in the first car, I watched as the train dipped under the NEC tracks, then barreled through a turnout at something that felt at least 40MPH, swiftly turning to run parallel to the NEC, coming into Harrison.
On two occasions I went to Newark during the midnight hours, when there was some maintenance activity. All PATH trains were wrong-railing into Harrison. They were coming into Newark on what's normally is the departing PATH track at Newark. Just before reaching the NEC the trains were slowing down, but just a little bit, to take a different switch over to a cross-over track. Still, they had to be going at least 30MPH through the turnout.
That is NOT a turnout. It is a grade-separated crossing.
A turnout is a switch.
The "superelevation problem" in the case of Brooklyn Bridge
is that the center express tracks need to be super-elevated
for track speed, about 20-25 MPH, while the local track has
to be designed for a lower speed because trains there are
either going into the layup tracks or City Hall Loop.
Laying out a turnout between two sharply curving tracks, both super-elevated, with differing amounts of super-elevation, has
got to be one of the most difficult turnout design jobs there is.
Think about how you would design that not only in the X and Y
dimensions but also Z!
The answer is in what the acorn said when it grew up.
You can't have switches on superlevated curves because the tracks aren't level at that curve, so a switch can't be installed.
Here is a good photo of a superelevated train curve. That train takes the curve at around 50 mph, without the superelevation, the train would go, say, 20-30 mph.
Surely any train running through that curve has either just left, or is just about to stop, at Lindberg station. Would they really be running at 50mph?.
I live and learn. I'll take more notice next time.
Thanks for the video offer by the way. But the picture is fine as it stands.
BACK ON TRACK AND READY TO ROLL!
THE NEW YORK TRANSIT MUSEUM REOPENS ITS MAIN BROOKLYN FACILITY
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 16, 2003 AT 10:00 AM
After extensive renovations to its main facility in Brooklyn Heights
the New York Transit Museum is reopening to the public on Tuesday,
September 16, 2003, at 10:00 AM.
The Museum is also hosting a free community open house for the general
public on Saturday, September 13 and Sunday, September 14, 2003 from
10:00 AM to 6:00 PM.
The New York Transit Museum, one of the city's leading cultural
institutions is the largest museum in the United States devoted to
urban public transportation history, and one of the premier
institutions of its kind in the world. The Museum explores the
development of the greater New York metropolitan region through the
presentation of exhibitions, tours, educational programs and workshops
dealing with the cultural, social and technological history of public
transportation. Since its inception as a temporary exhibit in 1976,
the Museum has grown in scope and popularity. Two years ago, on
September 1, 2001, the Museum closed for extensive renovations to its
main facility, a historic 1936 IND subway station.
The New York Transit Museum's infrastructure has been upgraded to
include enhanced climate control systems, improved fire protection,
safety, and electrical systems, and new lighting. The refurbished
galleries feature completely reinstalled popular exhibits such as
Steel, Stone and Backbone, which recounts the tale of building New
York City's nearly 100 year-old subway system, and many new highly
interactive exhibitions such as On the Streets, an in-depth look at
New York City's trolleys and buses. New features of interest include
user-friendly education workshops and a new computer resource
center. With these and many other additions, a fresh and enriching
educational experience of the history of New York's regional
transportation network awaits all visitors.
An orientation gallery that introduces visitors to the Museum, its
mission, and its unique setting will greet new and returning
visitors. This orientation is expanded through an exhibition of
artifacts and new acquisitions which provide an historical overview of
the Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) and its operating
agencies: New York City Transit; Long Island Rail Road; Long Island
Bus; Metro-North Railroad; MTA Bridges and Tunnels, and predecessor
companies.
Highlights of the Reopening
On the Streets: New York's Trolleys and Buses, a new gallery dedicated
to surface transportation presents, in nine complementing segments, a
history of above ground mobility for the last 175 years - from the
early 1800s through the 21st Century. The central element of this new
exhibition is a simulated traffic intersection complete with traffic
lights and coordinated walk-don't-walk signs, parking meters, fire
hydrants, and an array of other street "furniture." Children of all
ages will delight in a new, wheelchair accessible, twelve-seat bus;
refurbished 1960s bus cab, and child-sized trolley. Audio interviews
with New York City Transit's Department of Buses personnel and a
commissioned photo essay, A Day in the Life of a Bus complete the
streetscape. Exhibition sidebars credit two men who were instrumental
in the electrification of streetcars and railcars. Frank Julian
Sprague (1857 - 1934), of European descent, often called "the father
of electric railway traction" was responsible for the first
large-scale successful use of electricity to run an entire system of
streetcars in Richmond, Virginia, in 1887 - 1888; and Granville
T. Woods (1856 - 1910), an African-American inventor who patented more
than 60 devices over 30 years that sped development of telegraphs,
telephones and electric trains. One of Woods' most significant
inventions, a third-rail system for conducting electric power to
railway cars - successfully demonstrated in 1892 in Coney Island -
made the subway a reality in New York City. The exhibition also tells
the story of Elizabeth Jennings Graham (1830 - 1901), an
African-American schoolteacher who won a landmark legal decision that
defined the rights of people of color to ride any public conveyance on
the city's street. Ms. Graham's victory occurred 100 years before
Rosa Parks won a U.S Supreme Court case in the 1950s, that gave
African-Americans the right to sit anywhere in a public bus.
Clearing the Air, a highly interactive segment of On The Streets
allows visitors to learn about the evolution of fuel technologies and
evaluate their environmental impact. At a series of interactive stops
within the exhibition, visitors are encouraged to compare old and new
technologies and explore the origin of various fuels used over time,
as well as understand steps Transit's Department of Buses is taking to
reduce harmful emissions.
On the Streets visitors will also enjoy the new Dr. George
T.F. Rahilly Trolley and Bus Study Center. The Center features over 50
detailed models of trolleys and work cars created by Dr. Rahilly, a
trolley enthusiast whose painstaking depiction of every trolley that
ever ran in Brooklyn, is a highlight of the Museum's collections.
A new exhibition on the platform level, Moving the Millions: New York
City's Subways from its Origins to the Present provides visitors with
an overview of the magnitude and complexity of New York City's rapid
transit system. The exhibition uses historical photographs, diagrams,
cartoons, period maps, and newspaper clippings to illustrate major
issues and events that influenced the development of the largest
transportation network in North America. While touring Moving the
Millions museum visitors may board the Museum's vintage collection of
subway and elevated trains and visit a working signal tower. New York
City Transit's Division of Car Equipment has lovingly refurbished the
Museum's unparalleled collection of vintage subway and elevated
cars. Visitors will be pleased to see their old favorites in mint
condition.
A new exhibit on fare collection is illustrated by representative
examples of various collection devices used throughout the subway
system's history. Visitors may interact with these devices for a
uniquely tactile retrospective experience. The exhibit features the
first paper ticket-choppers used in 1904, later turnstile designs that
accepted coins and tokens, the MetroCard turnstile currently in
operation, and a graphic timeline underscoring milestones in fare
collection as well as the fifty-year history of the token. Images from
the Museum's archives not previously displayed show these reliable
vintage turnstiles in use in their respective eras.
Elevated City: A History of the Els in New York debuted at the
Museum's Grand Central Terminal Gallery Annex in June 2002. This very
popular photo-exhibition has been adapted and reinstalled in the
Museum's mezzanine level. This important exhibition takes a
retrospective look at New York City's first mass transportation rail
lines, from their birth to their demise. Elevated rail lines of the
1800s enabled people to travel beyond their immediate neighborhoods.
With a newfound freedom to travel and escape the surly bounds of lower
Manhattan, this 'commuter class' of city residents helped established
new communities outside of Manhattan throughout the spacious outer
boroughs.
Steel, Stone & Backbone: Building New York's Subways 1900 - 1925, the
Museum's ever popular exhibition that presents a look at the building
of New York City's first subway line, various tunneling methods, and
the people who built it, has been completely refurbished. The
exhibition features pictures taken over 100 years ago during
construction, along with historical artifacts and period videos. The
faces of the workers and images of the birth of the subway evoke a
sense of awe and appreciation for the dedication, tenacity and
sacrifice of the men who built the subway.
For the newly created art gallery on the mezzanine, the Museum is
featuring New York's Forgotten Substations: The Power Behind the
Subway, an exhibition of photographs by photographer and author
Christopher Payne. These turn-of-the-century power substations once
housed huge mechanical rotary generators that converted standard
alternating current (AC) power to the direct current, or DC power,
needed to drive New York City's subway system.
The Museum's new Sanford Gaster Education Center boasts a welcoming
area for conducting workshops and hands-on activities for youngsters
and a new computer resource center. The resource center will increase
the opportunities for research and learning about public
transportation currently available to our young adult audience. It
will feature online access to the Museum's collections and allow for
remote exploration of other transportation related resources. The
center extends and greatly enhances the Museum's educational outreach
efforts from a local to a national and global audience. On June 1,
2003, the Museum launched a new online education site: New York
Transit Museum >> Connected. For a preview of our offerings please log
on to www.transitmuseumeducation.org
Cinema Subway an exhibition of movie stills, lobby cards and posters
issued to advertise films made in New York City depicting the subway
system since the 1920s, is the featured presentation in the Museum's
RR Gallery. The gallery will also host transportation-themed lectures
and film and video programs.
Where did you get it from?
Larry, RedbirdR33
Jimmy
Simon
Swindon UK
BTW - the GCT Store is not temporary. It was opened years ago as an "annex" to the Museum. Even when the Museum reopens there will still be a changing exhibit at the store at GCT.
AND I hope they have NOT installed flourescent lights at platform level, that would be a sacrilege.
wayne
Hey, I was on the #7 today after 1 PM. I deliberatly rode an R-33 single. I wanted to have an axiflow moment ! It was a hoot watching people getting on this hot car, fans roaring and exiting to the A/C cars via the end storm doors !
I was at 74th St. to observe the progress with the new transportation building going up. I was there about 20 minutes watching R-62A's and redbirds go by. I was amazed at the R-62A consists that had one or two freshly washed cars mixed in with the great unwashed !
I observed a few remaining redbirds, counting the rotted out carbody holes but needed a calculator. When the last Redbirds are sunk, Bondo will probably lay off some employees, heh.
Bill "Newkirk"
Doubt it. There's always the R-40s :)
--Mark
#3 West End Jeff
SILVER STREAK ON THE FLUSHING LINE!!!!!!!!!
(What was I doing at the railfan window of an R-62A anyway when there were all those Redbirds floating around?)
1) From Feb 2000, Phil Hom image of R-42, R-1 and R-30 on the Brighton Line. Three way meet of a mixed bag of subway cars !
2) From Sept 1999, Douglas Grotjahn image of R-6's on the Rockaway Line near the flats coming off the bridge approach. A must for arnine and Rockaway Line fans !
3) From May 1999, Douglas Grotjahn image of aqua blue/white World.s Fair R-36's at Willets Point station with Shea Stadium in the background. If you like Flushing cars in vintage paint, this one's for you.
4) From April 1996, Don Harold image of clean R-32's outside Coney Island shops in original colors. Don't miss this one !
Thanks !
Bill "Newkirk"
Anybody need their's autographed?
I don't autograph calendars, postcards or Metrocards, only tokens ! Heh !!
I'll mail you your sample with your slide to save you the carfare to buy one at the Transit Museum !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Sounds like some neat new postcards for sure! Your post got me thinking about the 2004 Subway Calendar; will you be dropping it off to the Transit Museum gift store in GCT and The Red Caboose next month? I'm curious to see it as always, but especially with a milestone taking place on on 10/27/04. :-) -Nick
THURSDAYS ARE PATHursdays! PATHursday is your opportunity to meet with management staff to give your comments and suggestions. PATHursday representatives come from every management area of PATH and have expertise in their individual discipline, as well as a broad general knowledge of PATH operations. Many of the improvements PATH makes come as a direct result of suggestions made by our passengers. We welcome your comments.
PATHursdays are held Thursday mornings from 7:00 to 9:30 at the following stations:
PATHursday will be held every Thursday at 33rd Street Station
And the 2nd Thursday of the month at Journal Square Station.
If you cannot attend the PATHursday sessions, you may call 1-800-234-PATH (7284) or click on FEEDBACK at the top of this page to leave your comments.
The location: World Trade Center PATH station.
The date: September 13, 2001.
I had obtained one the Saturday before (9/8) at the Try Transit Festival in Hoboken.
You sure? I don't think you were down in that station on 9/13/01. Actually, I'm not sure what you mean. You got the holder at Hoboken, so why are you talking about a PATHursday event on 9/13/01?
From 9/8/01 to 7/1/03, I was not in lower Manhattan, though I rode the subways through there several times. However, streetside, Not between those two dates.
Today I took a trip up to the Shoreline Trolley Muesum in E.Haven,CT. I had a great time and had 2 great tour guides. If you are interested I took a bunch of photographs you can see them at:
http://www.ne-transit.us/shoreline/index.htm
Have a nice evening and enjoy the railfan trip on sunday.
Best Wishes,
Flushing7
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
til next time
Translation: I wouldn't be happy with them too. I'd maybe get rid of them.
LOL, Im just kidding around.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Trash.
Pros-
Reach speed quite fast
A change from the redbirds
Bright lighting
They are becoming quite reliable
Loud annoucements
Cons-
Early problems
Seats are not the best to sit on
Sometimes wrong transfers annouced
Strip maps should have been some type of board in itself, so that when trains are switched from line to line, all you have to do is hit a button an the stripmap is updated for the line. Kind of like it should be hooked up to the LEDs in the front of the train.
R142 is plain in the inside. R142A a little better.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I recall that N_Slant_40 said that he saw R160's with stainless steel fronts.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
If I listened to "other subtalkers", I'd believe that:
There are R-110B's running RIGHT NOW.
R-160's are on the property for testing.
R-32's have a rollsign that reads: (T) 2av/West End
Hillside has 2 or 3 unused stations after 179th st.
76th street is an actual station.
I don't know about the R110Bs, Im waiting for Trevor
I doubt the R160s are here.
And Im a little shaky on the 76th Street Station
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
There are no R160's
76th Street does not exist (open for debate, but let's not get into that).
The Thingie at Alabama Ave is not a secret launch pad between 76th Street and the Dyre Ave express tracks.
And I hear that trainset's running on the M this weekend. I wonder how it's going to get there. It can't use the Alabama launchpad due to the GO on the J. Maybe it'll ride up the escalator at Broadway Junction.
WHAT?! Now you tell me. I sat there all day yesturday with my camera trying to catch one of them flying R160s.
All it needs is the flux-capacitor, and it must hit 88mph.
til next time
til next time
til next time
There ya go!
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I'd also like to know where this platform is overlooking Manhattn like that.
Seriously though, I wish they'd designed something different, the R143 look taking over the entire system doesn't do it for me. I like the diversity the system has now and I hate to think that in a few years everything will look the same.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
My favorite is the blue. I haven't seen any CAFs run on Orange though they do run there, reports are that the color on the LEDs is the same as what is used on Yellow. No cars run on Red but I am willing to bet it will be brilliant, just like the blue ones.
RED LINE
GROSVENOR
6 CAR TRAIN
4 MINUTES
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
wayne
Peace,
ANDEE
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
2:There is a sign that says "T 2Av local/West End" Trevor said so himself and with him being able to change the rollsign's anytime he pleases,I believe em.Still a disbeliever?Ride on R32 car #3711 which is from Jamaica.That car has the rollsign's that are still able to be turned by hand.At least the train line roll's only.That's how I found out that the "H Rockaway Pk shuttle" sign is still there.
NO such sign exists. TOTAL BS.
BTW anyone who changes signs is NOT serving the interests of regular passengers.
Peace,
ANDEE
Furthermore, who says 76 St was never built? It is likely that the station shell at least was built, but filled in.
OK, where the hell did the 4th one come from? I never heard anyone say that.
David
And Alstom has artist's renderings on its website, which I posted a URL for earlier today.
David
Aw man, that's awful. Hopefully the builders think the general public is really dumb, that way they will have a lot of leeway to make changes to the R-143's design.
til next time
:-) Andrew
If new cars can only go where the cars they're replacing ran when the order was placed, we'd see R-142's on the 7 and on only a small part of the 4 and 6 fleets.
Here's my "logical" post-2004 car assignments:
R68: B/D
R68A: Q, extras to N
R40 (both): N, W
This setup keeps every car class assigned to it's current maintenance facility.
til next time
Any facility getting them will need major work to accomodate them. ENY will need none. I bet the MTA is itching to OPTO the J line at night and on weekends. If they go to 207th, you'll see them on the A line with the R44's. If that goes as planned, the option order should go to Coney Island.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
If he asked, I would tell him why.
I don't have a specific itinerary or schedule yet. Email me if you're interested in joining and include whatever ideas you have.
The three biggies seem to be the L cutback, the M extension, and the J shuttle bus, as well as the disruptions at Queens Plaza and 57/7. The Eastern Division rules the day!
Just saw this on channel 4 now, they shows a graphic, that looked like an R/46ish type train, with a large pink "F" on the LEFT side over where the T/O would sit!
Anyone else see this?
/back to sarcasm mode now:
You don't think the C/R and T/O of that (F) train had families? Wives? Husbands? Kids? How are they going to provide for their families now? This should have been covered up. And the people leaning against the doors and not holding on to something else will have learned a valuable lesson.
By finding a job where thier low function brain does not put the riding public in danger. If the report is true. What was the C/R smoking
I
Agree
With
This
Post.
(I swiped it from a 'Rasslin Newsgroup...)
HURRAH to Choo Choo for ACTUALLY using it!!
You don't know how right you really are...
In any language, you said a mouthful, brah!!
Brrrrravo!
Opening train doors between stations is too serious an incident to be covered up. We're not talking about some technical rule violation, after all, but rather a mistake that could result in serious injury or even death.
Whether the responsible employees should be fired for this incident is another matter. A lesser disciplinary measure might be appropriate, depending on circumstances, but in any event that's not the concern of anyone who reports the incident.
There's no excuse to not fire someone who put people's lives at risk. Even worse is that this mistake could have been easily prevented by just LOOKING OUT THE DAMN WINDOW.
Doesn't seem like something that can occur by accidentally bumping into something, or slipping on the floor, or whatever. The conductor wasn't paying attention. Whether it's because he was high on crack, or lazy, is a secondary matter that would only decide whether the conductor would or would not face criminal prosecution.
I remember reading that the slants have them but if they do they have a different symbol to denote it (R42s/the R40M have the red diamond under number plate).
And if even one car on the train doesn't have the enablers, enablers are disabled so doors work normally.
The proper lesson is that one does not do things which endangers lives.
A train engineer can lose his certification over just one incident of ignoring a red signal. Should that be covered up out of pity for him? I think not.
A pilot who "buzzes" the control tower for fun just once will lose his FAA certificate and will never fly again - never. How should he/she provide for his family?
Some "mistakes" are too serious to forgive because only dumb luck prevents people from dying when they happen.
Some "mistakes" are too serious to forgive because only dumb luck prevents people from dying when they happen..."
Heh. You just reminded me of what I observed a couple of weeks ago. It was near Republic Airfield on Rt. 110 in Farmingdale. It seems there's a "rush hour" for planes to land at that field. Between around 5 and 6 p.m. you can see dozens of planes, mainly prop planes landing there. Taking advantage, I suppose, of having the sun getting lower in the west and the approach is from the west. Well, I was just walking down the road there (If I've driven to work I always take an hour or so to take a nightly constitutional, usually up 110 to see all the busy transport modes in play there, to wit: 2 MTA bus lines, 1 Suffolk Transit bus, the LIRR Main Line trestle over 110, and, the airfield activity), and I noticed a prop plane making its approach like normal. It had just touched down on the runway when I heard the louder sound of a jet engined plane getting closer. I had noticed a plane making a counter clockwise sping over the airport, seemingly out of the standard landing patterns. It made a fairly short aerial u-turn up there. When I heard it, I looked west and ZOOOOMMM!! here comes this executive jet zipping onto the landing field! I looked east and yep, there goes that lil' propeller job hopping back up into the air at what looked like the very end of the landing strip. I can imagine the radio com from the tower: "...coming in good, cut engines...HOLY SHIT!!! LAUNCH!! LAUNCH!! GET YA ASS BACK IN THE SKY BOY!! NOW!!!"
Or something like that, I imagine. Wonder what the deal was here. The jet maybe running out of fuel? Or a medical emergency? It sure was something to see.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why's that?
-Stef
Can you name an incident of a regular poster on Subtalk seeing something it, reporting it, and getting someone fired. Granted, I only read selected threads, but I never heard of such a thing, and I've been posting on the board a long time.
Gah fobbid a CHILD ran over to look out the opened door.
1)Report to Dyre Avenue and find out what is going on with this so called "R160".
2)Report to the C Line and find out about this so called "R110B" be back in service.
You have Until Sunday 12:00 Midnight to complete the mission or else......
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
It is now 23:29
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
My mission would be to find these 110Bs (I'd start looking in 207th Street at around 10:30 AM), the T 2nd Avenue/West End sign (the T you find will be so boring you will just scroll the sign to P), and the train of redbirds with 2 R26s, 2 R28s, 2 R29s, 2 R33 MLs, and 2 R36 WFs (probably doesn't even exist, the cars on this train are scattered all over the city and some are in the ocean). Then we can accept Acela's mission.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
The BMT/IND sized R-160's will be laid up next to the New York Westchester & Boston MU cars. They used to run there up until 12/31/37.
2)Report to the C Line and find out about this so called "R110B" be back in service.
And bring a sleeping bag and some food. This may be a long haul !
"You have Until Sunday 12:00 Midnight to complete the mission or else"
Or else we'll send Sea Beach Ferd to your house and he'll bore you for hours telling you of his first ride on the Sea Beach as a kid, Ebbets Field, The Mets and politics. Word to the wise, find the R-160's and R-110B's !!
Bill "Newkirk"
You'll give us more time? You'll turn into a pumpkin?
Your MetroCard will expire?
Taken on Wednesday, July 16th at Franconia-Springfield
What about a second transfer?
What if (e.g.) I'm going from Penn Station to Astor Place, and my planned route is A/C/E to L to 6? Unless GO transfers are being distributed and collected at the three L transfer points, that costs two fares.
I'm asking if GO transfers will be distributed and collected at the three L transfer points.
Assuming you already know about this G.O., and you're outside fare control areas at Penn, there are 3 options:
1. A/C/E or 1/2/3 uptown to the 7/S then go downtown on the Lex.
2. A/C or 2/3 downtown to Broadway-Nassau/Fulton then 4/5 uptown to BB for the 6.
3. A/C/E downtown to West 4, F/S to B'way-nassau, Downtown 6 to Canal or BB, then head uptown.
It's a bit of a detour, but at least you pay one fare.
[I'm asking if GO transfers will be distributed and collected at the three L transfer points.]
I'm not sure, probably, then probably not.
The service advisories instruct passengers to use the M14 as a substitute for the L. That means that the fare charged on the M14 should mirror the fare charged on the L.
How about A/C/E or 1/2/3 to Times Sq., then downtown B'way local to 8th St.?
Or, just walk over to Herald Square and board the B'way local directly? (Especially if you're closer to 7th than 8th.)
The failure to provide connections between the IND and B'way BMT in lower Manhattan looms large in these instances...
If that's your planned route, you're not using your subway smarts. Go to 34th/Herald Square Station on the Broadway Line and take a downtown local to 8th Street. It's a little walking and only one train.
Maybe I'm coming from 23rd.
Maybe I'm just lazy.
Whatever the reason, the subway map shows a valid route, but if I try to follow the posted service advisories, I pay two fares (unless transfers are being issued and collected).
He personally told me that he heard there was an ex-NYW&B MU car in Clearfield, Utah. I would assume that these would be one of the cars that went west after the NYW&B quit in 1937 and were used at the shipyard railway in California. They did not run as electrics out there.
Has anyone heard any rail folklore about this ? I haven't seen or spoken to Bruce since then, but I know he's on the level and not a kooky railfan. Any thoughts ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
Hmmm, maybe Arrow Dynamics was trying to figure out how to make it into a roller coaster car!!!
I was wondering about that myself too. How can subway fleet like R42, 40M, 40S R32, 38 are soon to be retired sooner, I just don't understand how. Ok, they been here for 15 years. So!! they're running better than before. Even some TA workers agree with me that these fleet can survived for another 10 years of service. I think R44 and 46 should be first retired instead.
Are those employees Car Maintainers or Car Equipment engineers? If not -- if they haven't been under the cars or behind the panels -- their opinions mean nothing.
David
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I read this on the board some months ago.
David
Try this:
http://www.transport.alstom.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/View&inifile=futuretense.ini;futuretense_xcel.ini&c=at_article&cid=1027873683549&lid=en&rid=996826515305&pid=996826515979
David
David
The TA benefits in that two manufacturers can deliver the same car.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Robert
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
The pics are updated on my site www.johnvillanueva.com
R-62a and Redbird sections.
About 10 pictures.
What station was this? Looks IND to me, but can't tell.
If so, I like it. The job done so far looks really nice. Hope the contractors can keep up the good work.
Were you there when the train got stalled at Roosevelt Ave? Did you see R-32 #3523 on the E? (I was on it.) It was sitting for a while. In fact, the F was running express on the local track.
No, I didn't see a stalled (E). I got on an E at Quees Plaza at 8pm. We only hit a max speed of 39mph between there and 34 St-Penn Station.
Did you go the LIRR platform at Hunters Point Avenue? That is a good place to take photos at #7 train, LIRR, and Amtrak. This is the photo I took on July 1.
I recommend you to go there to take photos.
Chaohwa
Chaohwa
I would LOVE to go down there for photos, but every time I pass by on a (7) train, I see a policeman parked in his car down there. Was there a cop there when you were there. I assume he would chase me away if he saw me taking photos, not that they are illegal or anything.
I think police come there during PM rush. However, the best lighting is between noon and 2PM. That will be great for taking photos.
Chaohwa
Hunterspoint Ave Station
Near-by LIC Yard
Self Explanitory (sorry, my scanner was not cooperating with the red colors)
I put three photos taken at Hunters Point Avenue here.
Chaohwa
Those were the days when you could just take photos at your leisure, without people thinking you were a "terrorist".
Peace,
ANDEE
What is the R-11OB? Never heard of an R-11OB. Maybe an R-110B, but not R-11OB
Peace,
ANDEE
It's obvious that you can't tell a joke when you see one. I asked a silly question as a joke, and Continued the joke. Did I not supply my own ridiculous answer.
It's nice to someone has taken it upon themself to be the board's monitor of stupidity. Lighten up a bit.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Also worth checking out: http://cfpra.org/
Mark
This is one of the reasons WMATA never intended to give or build the existing toilet felicities to allow for public use.
John
Thje best thing is this, make sure you go BEFORE you get on the Metro, and also don`t go out when you're not feeling good, particularly if your stomach is iffy. And watching what you eat is a good suggestion. Some food and drink will trigger trips to the john at the worst possible time (like when you are on a crowded train that's delayed).
You mean it WON'T stop to let an employee off??
Nor a geese employing a video camera??
We're not in Katamachi anymore, brah... :(
Sure it will. Just key open a crew door and watch your step.
--Mark
Great job NotchIt, this is really funny.
A Redbirds Voyage To The Bottom Of The Sea
Love that photo!!!
Can you imagine the bugs splattered on that windshield ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Also when SubTalkers say they saw something, everybody wants to nag them saying that it was impossible, personally I don't think it's that serious, because I notice a few things got out of hand about nothing.
"Are you guys going to tell me that I lied about seeing the R142 in Unionport yard that has a front LED sign saying the number 3?"
It's Possible, because the other dat a R142 was placed in service on the 3 Line.
"Will you guys call me a liar about seeing all those Bombardier cars on the 6?"
There are photos on this website that prove that Bombardier Cars have been on the 6 Line, so don't stress your self on that.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
:)
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
And its not like Trevor doesn't have a record of this. Do you think Trevor was telling the truth about R-110B's on the Eastern Division?
From the write-up, some of us have assumed you guys SAW R-110B in passenger
service ON THE DAY OF YOUR GETOGETHER.
Trevor has SLIDES...... which could have been taken any day in the last decade.
Yay!! That clears up alot, brah....
.......here we all (I atleast) took the write-up
to mean you TOOK PICTURES of the r-110B THIS WEEK.. THIS WEEK.
Yao.
Slides = A Past Photo.
Thanks for clarity.
Crap? No one ever did anything to him, all we did was questioned the credibility of his so-called sightings of R110B's, which of course, turned out to be false thanks to Mark W's clear-ups.
Whew...
:0)
This is the dumbest on-topic thread I've ever participated in here on Subtalk. Where's heypaul when you need him?
Agreed. This thread is a prime candidate for arriving on Subtalk dead.
Now I'm not going to take sides here [FOR OBVIOUS REASONS] but the damn train has been under tarp for quite some time to my knowledge and Mark W said it has rusty wheels but Trevor has slides stating it has ran recently. I'll keep my opinion to myself on this matter.
Nope, heypaul is riding those wooden escalators in Macy's 34th St. Sometimes when I'm in the area and need to use their clean restroom I'll make it a point to ride those old woodies. Those are the BU's of the escalator world.
Bill "Newkirk"
They are very real and are running as we speak. They aren't quiet like the modern stainless steel ones we ride. They have an unusual "wooden" sound all there own.
Before you were born there were wooden escaltors on our subways ! I do remember the woodies at 34th St & 6th Ave and also Court St. on the BMT Montague St.tunnel line.
Since Macy's occupies the 34th St block from 7th to 6th Ave's, those woodies are located somewhere in a center of the block entrance. They're behind an elevator bank and you can ride up the 9th floor. I think there are a couple of other woodies near the 6th Ave entrance. Macy's is huge.
Bill "Newkirk"
And in the main Broadway building, there are at least one or two banks of wooden escalators. They may not start at the ground floor, as they have modernized some of the lower floors,but the woodies go up to the 8th or 9th floor.
As Bill said, they have quite a unique sound as well as being original equipment from the store's opening 100+ years ago. They are probably one of the oldest pieces of mass transportation equipment in the city. I'm not sure if there are any buildings that have elevators with the original cars around.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In the Broadway building, on the 4th, 5th or 6th floor, the escalators spread out into a sort of 4 track line that all empty or load from the same place. I may not be describing it well, but it has a very grand classical look about it.
One of the reasons the wooden escalators are still functioning is that it would be very expensive to replace them.
I think Macys wooden escalators were one of the earliest Otis escalator installations.
If they ever replaced them, I wonder what they would go for on Ebay?
of course, if Macy's did decide to replace them, the job wouldn't take 2+ years as with Borough Hall.
I have good news:
The Court Street BMT escalators are open! (I don't know when they were opened, but they were still behind plywood a week ago.)
I also have bad news:
Only the down escalator was running.
Borough Hall's still not done, but that's not a big deal as long as the parallel elevator's working (nor is it an exceptionally long climb).
That's dumb, common sense says if one escalator is working it should be going up and not down.
Bill "Newkirk"
In other words, you're right, but this is the subway.
Fortunately, I was going down.
On a semi-related topic, has anyone been the former "John Wanamaker" building in Philadelphia? I remember, like back in the early 1980's, going up the escalators to the top floor, and that was an experience in itself, but then on the roof of the top floor there was some sort of amusement ride like a monorail. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
The top floor of Wanamakers was the executive offices, I think the selling floors stopped at the 9th floor, where the credit office (where you paid your charge card bills) were. Tenth thru twelfth floors had the exec offices.
I rode it when I was a kid in the (late) '40's. Yes, it was a space ship, but to me it was a train. Every Christmas our parents took my (older) brother and me to 8th & Market on the Bridge Train (the genesis of my subway fanhood) to go to the department stores to "see Santa Claus". It was actually to see the toy train layouts in all the department stores. Wanamakers was always the best, with Strawbridge's second, until Lits decided to build a "Christmas village". Gimbels was OK and Snellenbergs was an also-ran.
I remember the wooden escalators in Abraham and Stauss (A&S) in Brooklyn. They also had operator driven elevators and express elevators that stopped at two floors only.
www.forgotten-ny.com
There is also a set going from the main floor down to the Cellar.
www.macys, er, um, www.forgotten-ny.com
Or you can figure out a way to sneak in 207th St. and observe the rust on the wheels and rails. Sure beats waiting for a train that doesn't run !
Bill "Newkirk"
Other ones I'd wish they do include Jamaica and the Concourse ones. They're hardly talked about.
At one point I killfiled the California guy, Salaam, but at this point I'd rather duplicate his posts. At any rate he actually has created new words :-)
And the proff is here,
Arti
It's really gotten to a point to where theres nothing to prove.
Yes, the fact that the R110B's have not run in 2 years.
When Trevor does come through with the pictures half the people on this board will still be hells bent on calling him a liar.
And yet he has decided to leave this board forever. So much for that promise.
Frankly they can all think what they want, I don't care. I saw the slides Trevor has, Ozzy saw the slides Trevor has, Adam saw the slides Trevor has, D train saw the slides Trevor has, Lincon saw the slides Trevor has and David saw the slides Trevor has. I don't need the people of this message board to tell me what I saw, and to tell me that Trevor is playing a joke, because I know he's telling the truth and that's all that matter.
So what if all of you saw them? We can only base on what we know and we haven't seen his slides. To be honest though, what he saw isn't what we think it is since Mark W's comments.
Everytime some small thing comes onto Subtalk it gets blown out of proportion. Are you guys going to tell me that I lied about seeing the R142 in Unionport yard that has a front LED sign saying the number 3? Will you guys call me a liar about seeing all those Bombardier cars on the 6?
Not everything. Most of those 'small' things usually stay within boundaries and are kept under control. It's when someone posts something questionable like your R110 B thread like this happens. No slides for us to see, we'll question it, all right.
Because if so I would like the stuff all of you guys been smoking. That's all I have to say, have a nice day !
Given this whole thread, no one is smoking anything. It's a matter of a lack of common sense. Enjoy your day.
There is a boarded up station entrance on Smith Street in Brooklyn, just south of fulton Street and I'm trying to understand what it is.
Not connected with the old Court Street Station that is now the transit museum, but seems too far from Jay Street to be connected with that.
I know someone knows this please explain.
Thanks
Culverexpress.
That would be nice for me.
fulton Street could use a subway entrance.
Don't be so lazy, the entrance to the Jay St station is only a block away.
The long-closed entrance to the B/C at 70th Street was reopened a few months ago. I don't know if there's a booth (not that most users of the entrance care -- they're just happy it exists).
The difference is 400ft and 2 very busy intersections to cross.
Just though it would be a little more convenient.
Sorry for making a suggestion.
Many other entrances are separated by that distance or even more so. It's really more of the MTA saving money ultimately.
It also makes an even better arguemnt for re-opening it
as one trying to get to fulton mall from Boro Hall must not only walk the distance but cross the many lanes of traffic and service streets leading to the brooklyn bridge approach.
Curious if there isn't a racial motivation in separating boro hall from the Fulton area?
You never know.
1) OBVIOUSLY the TA didn't sanction this!
2) Next time HBO does something like this, how many SubTalkers will railfan that train? :)
3) Does anyone know if TA management went ballistic over this?
4) If kittens can get you busted on a train, why not strippin' cats? (The photo shoot went on for a while. Apparently nobody complained.)
All in all, I think ot was fascinating and instructive...some things are easier to get away with than others...hee hee hee...
Nobody's answered my question (perhaps because nobody knows the answer): Will the R-143's that usually run on the M on weekends be running this weekend, or will the M be using its regular weekday fleet?
You din't answer my question regarding the error in the PDF for the J shuttle bus from Broadway Junction to Crescent st this weekend, where is it?
The flyer does refer repeatedly to a station called Eastern Parkway. The only station I know of by that name is on the 2/3.
The Q24 runs along Atlantic Ave
I just love that bus route! Surely one of the more unusual routings, and you get to see the original Montauk Branch of the LIRR, plus the lovely industrial districts in the area. A no nonsense route.
Apparently the Service Advisory writer is unaware of the name change performed in 12/2001.
Sonic Music Festival at Coney Island's Steeplechase Park
Tommorrow: 9 AM to 6 PM
Directions: V to Sheepshead Bay then Beach bus
Whoops, NYCT caught this mistake and corrected it to the Q line on a yellow paper. But it is still up at both sides of Penn Statrion, 161st st/River Ave and most stations on the White Plains Road line in the Bronx.
Oh my goodness, now THAT is purely embarrassing! And we thought the mix ups with the R and other advisories were bad.
They made a mistake with that too, it's the SIREN Music festival.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The weekend M is normally assigned, what, four 4-car R-143 sets? Then there certainly won't be more than two 8-car R-143 M trains running this weekend.
My strong hunch is that there won't be any, but I wouldn't mind getting pictures of R-143's on the bridge or in Manhattan.
Your Sunday trip is looking more and more inviting!
At least some of the M has to run R42's as there is no way they could cover Fulton to Metro service with the R143's they usually send to the M on weekends. Hopefully it will be a mix, and not just R42's.
Sure, it could happen, and that's why I asked. But why should it happen?
I thought the M line had 8 car R143 boards, but I can't remember how far down the line they go.
If I'm imagining things, and they don't, they're unlikely to do so as the only time R143s are used there is for OPTO service.
Also, do the R143s have a route programmed for anything other than Metro-Myrtle?
Are many B-division crews not qualified to run the new equipment?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
3 Train - R62A #1919
C Train - R32 #3891
F Train - R46 #6021 (Supposed to be the A Train)
Diversion is most logical answer because R46s don't even run on the A and the F Line Logo was on all the Cars.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Note that trains on the 8th Av, Broadway and 6th Av lines can be rerouted as needed to go around obstructions, fires, police activity, etc. This is one of the major strengths of NYC's subway system.
The F could run the entire Brooklyn and Queens route to Rockaway if desired, running the same route that the JFK Express did.
"We can only travel 25 on city roads. How can they travel 45?" he said. "That's going to be a bigger accident waiting to happen."
That's one of the dumbest things I ever heard. Read the full story here.
They need to bring Operation Lifesaver to this burg and show what a car looks like after it has been hit.
How much time will we have in PJ, any ideas of what we can do while there?
;-)
Flushing7
Jimmy
Yep, and it's gonna cross via the new Tappan Zee road/rail bridge, then head downtown via the newly-reopened Putnam Branch. :+}
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
http://www.mbta.com/traveling_t/schedules_subway.asp
I recommend you create lists instead.
No, you did that years ago :-)
Took me a moment to figure out what was being said at first since I hadn't followed his original link.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Because you would have about 3 people per car. Philly isn't as big a draw as NYC is. Furthermore, the NEC/R7 route is not a big a commuter base as the NEC in New Jersey. The R7 runs mostly through a bunch of gritty industrial areas and for more than half of its rpute never leaves the city limits. The R5 to Paoli (and Doylestown) is the primate commuter route into the city, and it is on it that you see relitivly long trains at freqnely headways.
The R8 to Chestnut Hill West often runs 3 car trains and offers 30 minute headways, among the best in the system.
Besides, SEPTA has 7 Regional Rail Lines, two branches each. Given the frequencies on a few of them (Most notably, the R8 Chestnut Hill West, R1 Airport, and R5 Malvern/Thorndale), it's not that easy to free up cars to tack on to another train line.
NJT, however, has a rather infrequent service on quite a few lines (Raritan Valley, Boonton, Port Jervis, Atlantic City, etc), with only the Norh Jersey Coast Line, Morristown Line, Gladstone Branch, and Northeast Corridor Line having anything close to "high frequency" It's easier to run longer tains on a line when the other rail lines your system has don't need the extra cars that often... That, and let us not forget, NJT has a lot more push-pull equipment than SEPTA, which frees up the MUs. SEPTA has, I believe, eight Bombardier push-pull consists, which are restricted to the R7 Trenton and R5 Thorndale lines (And are serviced in Frazer or Wayne Junction Electric Car Shop, and are stored in Roberts Avenue Yard during midday hours, and in Frazer or Trenton overnight and on weekends). That lacking number of push-pull trains doesn't allow SEPTA to free up too many MUs, however, SEPTA only has the running space to use the Bombardier consists on a few lines (R5 Thorndale, R7 Trenton, R5 Doylestown, R2 Wilmington/Newark, R3 West Trenton, and MAYBE the R6 Norristown and R3 Media/Elwyn)
And that's exactly why I avoid working that line like the plague! It's like the "Brighton Line" of New Jersey. It might be interesting if you're a buff, but as an employee, it's the height of chaos. Passengers hiding in the abundant bathrooms (on the MU's they're in every odd number car) to avoid paying the fare, passengers roaming from car to car to avoid paying the fare, and passengers who steal seat checks to avoid paying the fare. Since there are no turnstiles to jump at the Northeast Corridor stations, the "fine folks" who ride that line have no other options!
Hamilton and Newark stations have MUCH longer platforms than most of SEPTA's Regional Rail stations, or even than platforms on several other NJT lines. The platforms on the AC line and on SEPTA's RR were simply not built to accomodate 10-15 car consists!
If SEPTA were to run longer cars, theoretically consists that ran much longer than each station platform. Then you'd have some passengers up in arms about not being able to exit through certain doors, and having to move to the front of the train, etc. And I'm not sure how legal it is to run that long of a train, since the shorter platforms at most stops would not allow routine departures or emergency exits efficiently at all.
And about NJT's main NEC line being too crowded? All signs point to the restoration of a very successful West Trenton / New York line in our lifetime.
In my experience, that's because many of those cars are closed off. I'm not sure what NJT's policies are regarding this, but from the casual observer's point of view, it's as if the train crew would rather pack us in like sardines in a few cars rather than (*gasp*) walk through a couple more cars to collect tickets. It's one of the reasons I usually prefer to drive to Jersey City and take PATH rather than dealing with the NJT Trenton line.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Actually it is said P.J. and HBK are in the same banda.
What you do isn't wrong, but I wonder about your motivation sometimes. You seem to get pleasure out of it.
I too have had turnstile card swipers arrested, asked police to pull over a DWI driver on more than one occasion, and have been responsible for initiating several Child Protective Services investigations on parents who endangered their children (I am a mandated reporter - I have to, by law). I have even been assaulted by a parent and had to subdue her and hold her for police.
But I don't take perverse pleasure in it. I don't get my jollies doing it. I just do it. I hope that the person in trouble rehabilitates himself/herself, gets some help, moves on with life.
Whom are you trying to impress here?
It is more stupidity than malicious intent that is being complained of. Look at the difference between saying "I was on a train that went BIE yesterday morning for no reason that I could determine" and "Yesterday morning at 10:14 am between 5th Avenue and Grand Central on the 7 line going in the direction of Flushing, I was on a train that went BIE for no apparent reason." From a rail fan perspective, the first description of when and where the incident happened is sufficient to support any discussion of what happened. The second description, which is what some who post here insist on using, pin points for management the employees involved without adding anything to the discussion.
Tom
What they have going for them is something recently happened that was MUCH worse and did not make the radar here.
What crew? I used a completely hypothetical incident with no basis in reality.
Tom
Something really bad happened on Friday so a wrong route is now small fries.
Since Unca Dave's been diddling the code here lately, a NICE touch would be a flag for TRANSIT employees ONLY which could be flipped at their request prior to posting that changes their identity to "MTAsheep" for the posting so that there'd be no "audit trail" to nail them with if they shared a juicy morsel.
However, as long as their identity (there's so MANY damned wiglets downtown, wouldn't surprise me if someone's drawing 37.5 hours a week just tracking handle changes of MTA employees) ... having a shared "MTAsheep" identity or similar that ALL of them (and NOT foamers) could avail of, with safety to the poster for sharing, might make a difference in what *I* am into here.
One of the reasons for my OWN political angles is when I POST a "new thread", it's ALWAYS about politicos and TRAINS ... ALWAYS. Since I have 30 years of experience in journalism and politics, I know what stories are relevant, who the players are, and cite OTHER sources as links to the details if anyone cares. Only time I go off on rants about getting screwed by BOTH parties is if I'm bored out of my teat with all the other conversations, and somebody's given me inspiration.
Wanted to apologize for it just the same - I *do* make a point though to make any NEW posts relevant to transit, and when I'm tired from insane overwork because we can't afford to HIRE people so I can go sleep, well ... my apologies for going overboard. By that point, I'm too stupid from lack of sleep to realize what I've done. :(
But as to the rodent factor, a little MATURITY would go a long way. Unca Selkirk came here to hang out in a CREW ROOM. That's what subtalk has always been for ME ... alas, when a rat walks into a crew room, it gets lonely in there FAST. :(
The York Street fire certainly is far worse, and did make the radar here. There has to be some kind of failure, whether of system management on the whole, or by one or more specific employees, or something else, for that to happen the way it did. That fire could have been a major disaster if they hadn't been lucky. As someone said, this sort of thing shouldn't be happening any more.
PS: Is the driven speed recorded on the subway trains?
The trains i drive draw a distance-speed-diagram
Oh,
and
by
the
way,
I've
probably
driven
with
over .24!!
With some of the "busybodies" that show up on SubTalk and say they banged somebody in, they just might know how to read white text and bang you in for what you posted, or trash you 'cause of your former profession.
I would agree so long as what you were not "ratting" was some paperwork infraction or other problem which was not major corruption or a threat to the public's health and safety.
But refusing to turn in someone because they are "on the take" with a drug dealer, or taking bribes, or covering up a fellow officer's DUI related crash (this happened in Philadelphia) makes you and the offenders the rats. The pewrson who turns it in is doing his/her job. In those cases, I wouldn't hesitate to dismiss the entire precinct if I had to in order to restore order.
In Philly 12 out of 13 plumbing inspectors were prosecuted for taking bribes. The 13th, an honest guy who refused bribes (and did not turn in his fellow inspectors - they were caught by unrelated means) was harrassed to no end. The harrassers are low-lying scum who deserve to be fired, prosecuted, thrown in jail and barred from ever holding government employment again.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Here's why it's hard for me to believe some supervisor is gonna take action against an employee based on a message he reads (or hears about) in SubTalk. During my years as a commuter I've seen a few real nut jobs working in Transit. Yet despite riders complaining over and over about them (and in the most extreme terms) no action seemed to be taken for a long, long time, if ever.
A better example of the way I assume things usually work "behind-the-scenes" would be the crash on Boston's Green Line several years ago, caused by a highly intoxicated operator. The Boston Globe discovered that not one but two people had gotten off the train and called the T before the accident to say there was something wrong with the operator. They gave the Car #, the location, direction, the works. Basically the crash occurred while two supervisors were still trying to figure out, 'How do we handle this without getting someone fired?'
There, I've just told you about a real event without screwing the crew. Even if the president of the railroad read this post, he'd likely never be able to link it to the actual incident from the lack of details I've gien. If a crew member reports it, fine. If another passenger reports it, then the crew is screwed. Point is we can discuss the incident without giving specific details and screwing the crew.
Why such the bizzare schedule?
If there was no 6:00 and 6:13, then there would be no train service from Mytrle to Metropolitan for 45 minutes, unacceptable headway here.
Here's how to do it and what it will cost!
Trolley Museums (Seashore and Branford are two that I can speak of) have been hard it in our liability insurance premia the past few years. For example, the cost to insure four of our over-the-road buses last year now what it costs to insure just ONE.
On Saturday, trains leave NWK every 30 mins on the on the hour and half hour. As you know, stay on that train and you will get to HOB eventually. Wait, this is interesting. Trains leave EXPL for HOB every 15 minutes, starting 8:53am. How do they run twice as many trains betw EXPL and HOB than they do betw EXPL and NWK? I assume it's possible via the fact that HOB has three tracks and EXPL has two, but I don't wanna try to work it out.
Also: NWK - EXPL = 18 min
Layover @ EXPL = 5 min
EXPL - HOB = 6 min
Total = 29 min
This is a grat site for preserving the tradition of old and present lines, glad I found it.
I rode the last run on the last day. That last run must have been comprised of 99% railfans. Even people leaning out their apartment windows knew that this was the last run.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's a good question, though I don't know the answer. My mind that day was transfixed on the Myrtle Ave. line and not baseball.
Bill "Newkirk"
The last regularly scheduled trip was a midnight run that was officially on 4 Oct 69. The first game of the playoffs was scheduled later in the afternoon.
Who remembers Nolan Ryan coming on in relief of Gary Gentry in Game 3 and winding up as the winning pitcher in the pennant-clinching game?
wayne
wayne
I think that there was a VA hospital at the downtown Brooklyn end near the BQE and Navy Yard, and we went there on the Myrtle Ave. El.
I seem to recall hearing of a truck, possibly a semi, turning under the El in the area of Fort Greene park. From what I was told at the time as the truck started up the hill on Myrtle ave there was not enough clearance and the truck struck and damaged one of the cross girters. I beleive there was an article in the new york news. but any way mta had the structure shored up until the last train passed over the site. now this would have been in october 1969. does anyone remember this or could correct my memory on the circomestances thanks
john
My 6th grade history teacher lived in downtown Brooklyn, and sometimes when I would get off the B18 bus at Wyckoff and Gates Avenues by the Hamburg Savings Bank I would see him get off the Myrtle el, and we would walk to school together (St. Brigid parochial school). I remember views of the Myrtle el between Wyckoff and Knickerbocker Avenue stations from many windows of the St. Brigid School buildings.
I remember waits at Broadway and Myrtle for the "steel trains" to and from Manhattan to arrive and pass below on the Myrtle Avenue station of the Broadway/Jamaica el. These trains seemed fascinating and out of the ordinary at the time, because I hadn't yet ridden them. They became very familiar when I rode them to and from work regularly, from around Thanksgiving 1974 through August 1, 1975, and again June 1979 through mid-September 1991, when I married and moved out of Ridgewood.
I remember seeing Navy St. from the Myrtle el, as an s-curve street heading north from Myrtle through tall apartment buildings, just south of the Brooklyn Navy Yard.
I too remember the mezzanine with token booth and two staircases to the Myrtle Avenue sidewalk between Gates Avenue and Palmetto Street. I think I last used that token booth in June 1975. My family and I frequented a Chinese restaurant on the south side of Myrtle between Gates and Palmetto in the mid-60's. It was on the second floor and I think named the New World Inn. I remember sitting with my family in a booth by the window in January 1966, discussing the transit strike, and how threatening the incipient fare hike from 15 to 20 cents seemed at the time. It seemed like you could climb right out that window onto the el stairs without even needing the building fire escape as an intermediate step.
A vivid memory of the January 1966 transit strike was the repeated use of the words "mediator" and "commuter" on radio news, and TWU labor leader Mike Quill quoted as telling a judge he could "drop dead in his black robes"! I also remember walking home from school after the strike had ended, relieved at the sounds of the Canarsie line running once again, coming up from the ventilation gratings on Wyckoff Avenue.
mike middle village, your fellow Brooklyn Tech-er Joseph D Korman has lots of great images of the Myrtle Avenue el on his website, the Joe Korner, not only in operation, but also when it was being demolished, taken from his classrooms at Brooklyn Tech.
Thanks for the reference to the Joe Korner. They are great photos that brought back some nice memories. I have been out of Middle Village/Ridgewood since 1978 but have great memories. Some change is good and some bad. From what I hear Ridgewood is not what it used to be, unfortunately. But I was surprised when I went to my 30th Tech reunion last year that the neighborhood there is rejuvenated. 30 years ago you could not walk around that neighborhood.
If, fom your handle, you are also nostalgic about Ridgewood (which I happen to be), the Times Newsweekly (www.timesnewsweekly.com), formerly the Ridgewood Times, has an Our Neighborhood section which contains intersting articles and pictures on Ridgewood history. You can read archived articles going back a couple years. The Thursday edition is online the following Monday.
A cousin of mine took the Myrtle Avenue line those same years I attended the Prep (1969-73) from either Wyckoff or Knickerbocker to Metropolitan Avenue to attend Christ the King H.S. in Middle Village
and would sometimes get hassled by public school kids getting on at
Forest Avenue.
You're welcome to my reference to the JoeKorner. I agree, Ridgewood is not what it used to be. I moved out in 1991 and sold my parents'
home there in 1999. I still visit once a month. I have learned that Bushwick is being gentrified. If Bushwick improves, can Ridgewood be far behind ? I'm glad to read that the Brooklyn Tech neighborhood has been rejuvenated.
Yes, I am nostalgic about Ridgewood as you are. Thanks for the link to the Times Newsweekly. I had already received the link from another SubTalker, and have read two recent "Our Neighborhood" articles. The first had to do with the Richmond Hill trolley that used to run on Myrtle Avenue(predecessor of the B and Q55 buses). The second, dated
August 7, was one of two parts, and was about the Frank Brewery that stood at Cypress Avenue between Weirfield and Hancock Streets until it was demolished in 1959. I remember that brewery, and will be responding to the Times Newsweekly with a written, paper letter (my first since October 1996) once I've read the second part.
I am also notslagic about, and interested in, the past history of Brooklyn Mass Transit, including not only the Myrtle Avenue el, but
the defunct Fulton Street and Lexington Avenue els.
Geez, see kids haven't changed (they were like that back then too it seems). Forest Ave used to be my home station when I went to Christ the King HS in the 80's, and although I never really got hassled, it was hell there when school let out at Forest Ave (at PS93). Luckily, I only had to pass through in the afternoon to get off, I didn't have to wait there, and in the morning there was never a problem when I was waiting for a train.
I agree, Ridgewood is not what it used to be. I moved out in 1991 and sold my parents'
home there in 1999. I still visit once a month. I have learned that Bushwick is being gentrified. If Bushwick improves, can Ridgewood be far behind ?
I left in 1993. I however don't find Ridgewood to be a bad area at all (I guess though depending on where you are). Actually, when I left, I feel the neighborhood could have gone either way - it wasn't bad, but it was at that critical point where it could have gone down instead of up. Wear and tear was starting to show. Luckily, lots of people came in in the last decade, and have fixed up and maintained wonderfully. I wouldn't call Ridgewood bad at all, although it is a bit seedy around where the Wyckoff-Myrtle station is (although it's been seedy their since the 70's. Even over there though it looks better than it did in the early 90's.
Seriously, though, it'll be interesting to see how Ridgewood changes in the next decade or so. I'll be curious about it.
As a lonmg-time homebrewer who has made a Bushwick-style pilsner (Trommers), I have been reading about the history of Bushwick and the all the breweries that were there into the 1950s. It would be great to see that neighbohood revive, as you mentioned. As a historical touch, it would be nice to see a microbrewery go in.
If you want to do any special Ridgewood research, or just look further back at the the Ridgewood Times, the main Queens library branch in Jamaica has the Ridgewood Times going way back. I believe it is on microfilm going back to its inception, which would be around 1925(?). You don't need a Queens library card to access it. I believe it's in what's called the Long Island History or Reading Room (see the library's web site).
I hope you enjoy Ridgewood when you go back there to visit your Miraculous Medal classmates. Some of my classmates at the Prep were from Miraculous Medal parish in "upper" Ridgewood. I am from "lower" Ridgewood (near the Brooklyn border).
Interesting that you mention Trommer's. The beer garden of that name used to be at Bushwick Avenue and Conway Street near Broadway Junction in East New York. There was a Sunday N Y Times article about five or six weeks ago, titled "Something's Brewing in Bushwick", about new housing being made out of the old Rheingold Brewery near
B'way / Myrtle. I think the RKO Bushwick Theater near Broadway and
Howard Avenue is also being renovated into new housing.
Indeed it is, and coming along quite nicely, especially compared to what it looked like in April (bottom photo). There's even a new McDonalds there....things are shaping up.
(sorry about the quality of the last one, it started to rain, and it's the only "before" shot I have of it.
Pleasure that some drunk asshole,wont have a chance to kill an innocent life,or LIVES!!!!!!!!!!
I DONT ever feel sympathy for thr PERP!! I feel for the VICTIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Who am I trying to impress???????
whoever you think I am trying to impress Ron.If you think its 1 person,than its 1 person.If you think its 2 people,then its 2 people.
and so on and so forth.
Arti
As you know, Arti, I've had my moments, too.
I am most interested for the museum to take a 95xx GE set because they are plenty left. Other than 9572-73 you mentioned, are any R36 sets in good enough shape?
CNJ #1169
Tempel at Tuckahoe (NJ) station
Jersey Central open-end obs
CNJ #1169 was built in 1927 and was used on the Blue Comet, Jersey Central's classy Jersey City to Atlantic City train.
The second trip behind NKP 765 was to Port Jervis. Since the turntable (mentioned by Jersey Mike in his thread about tomorrow’s Port Jervis trip) hadn’t yet been uncovered, there was no facility to turn the locomotive, so the return trip was behind M&E Alcos. I copped a shot of NJT U34CH’s while getting set for a run-by.
So, for a fiasco that people still talk about, it was a good experience for me.
Well plan B wold have me skipping the Shuttle and go to the (J)/(M) Lines instead via the B24 Bus to Marcy Ave and then hop on the J or M Trains across to Manhattan
Thanks, in advance!
Also, check out the SubTalk Chicago Field Trip Report from two years ago.
Also, contact Bill Davis (chicagomotorman) to see whether he'll be available. I noticed a particularly upbeat motorman on the Red Line while in Chicago a couple days prior to the SubTalk field trip. Subsequently he joined us as motorman/host on the Red Line. It was Irwin Bill Davis! It's an experience to ride his train whether you know him or not.
I had no problem photographing CTA without a permit on two trips to Chicago, but things may be different now.
Check out this relatively new exhibit:
http://www.msichicago.org/exhibit/great_train_story/tour/chicago.html
They call it The Great Train Story and it's a model railroad of the trains between Chicago and Seattle. It's huge, detailed and included the Chicago "L" lines in the Chicago portion.
If you're there on a weekday, don't miss the Douglas branch, currently under rehabilitation. I'm not sure how much of the old is still there. The Douglas branch doesn't run on weekends (or holidays, so I had to pass). (Neither does the Evanston Express, but you probably knew that already. Rush hours only!)
To: All Concerned
Subj: Commercial Production
Activity: Photography on CTA Property
Line/Route: Systemwide
Effective: Immediately
Issued 3/18/03:
"Persons taking photographs on CTA property may be generally classified in two categories: professional and personal.
Professional
Professional photographers and organized production companies are prohibited from taking pictures on CTA property unless they are escorted by appropriate CTA personnel or posses official permission authorizing access. Individuals and groups in this category may be identified by the presence of a variety of cameras withor without a tripod, multiple camera lenses and/or a production support team with professional talent. Professional photographers and organized production companies often remain at one location for an extended period of time.
Personal
Personal photographers are permitted on CTA property if their activity is incidental, does not pose a distraction to others and does not affect any customer or employee's safety. Individuals in this category may be identified by the use of simple cameras. Personal photographers generally spend little time in one location and take pictures while waiting for a train.
Employees must courteously inform customer(s) who are not in compliance of this policy. If assistance is required, employees must contact Communication/Power Control.
If you have any questions regarding teh contents of this bulletin, please contact your manager.
J.A.H.
Vice President,
Rail Operations"
Bill "Newkirk"
NYCT basically has the same policy. Commercial/media need a permit, personal do not.
Some people are up at arms about the NYCT memo over photography. The problem is that the crews are going to the extreme. The memo states persons taking extensive photoographs or of restricted areas. Some crews and other employees are calling in any photography going on and not making the distinction between "extensive" and a few pictures here and there. Its really not the NYCT policy makers at fault here, but the lack of management to inform the employees of what this memo really means.
One poster here received a ticket for taking video on the 7. Personal video is covered under the same clause as personal photography. It's not the crews: at least one police officer is under the impression that personal videography without a permit is prohibited.
And the police officer in question stated that he was under orders to ticket people engaged in personal videography on the subway.
When you appear for your hearing, make sure you have a copy of the law. Not printed from this website, but take a few minutes to go down to the NYPL and make a copy of the actual code.
His post is right before yours.
Read it, print it, and carry it when you go the Windy City.
"As for the CTA - their official management policy on photographing is as long as you're not a professional and don't stay at one location too long, it is OK. Don't expect to set up a video
for hours at a time at one location.
Most operators however are not happy with photos of any kind and some will tell you that you can't take pictures on CTA property. Just challenge them to call the "control center" to check the official policy - that will take the wind out of their crap."
Unless you are as brain dead as some Subtalkers have said, you'll print what I told you to and carry it with you on your next Chicago visit, as well as take the advice JimK posted.
I'm a manager of transportation at CTA, and I helped produce this bulletin and many others within Rail Operations. The intention was to allow personnel the right to make a judgment call and remove the person if they put themselves or others in danger.
We do have a lot of operators who don't feel they need to read bulletins. You can help us by calling the main CTA number, 312-664-7200 during business hours, and ask for the transportation office of the particular line you were on and give them the information you recorded.
Thank you for the posting. I'm a resident of Chicago, who also happens to be a fan of the 'L'. I'm proud of the CTA system, how much improved the service has become since the dark days of the late 1990's.
I do like to take a camera out occasionally to take photo's. However, I've been yelled at and told to shove my camera when I don't care to put one. What is with these operators? They are truly unprofessional, and forget that approximately 1/2 of their salary comes from taxpayers like me. The other half comes directly from me when I pay $75 for 30 days worth of riding.
Once the rail operators and bus drivers on CTA realize their job is taking me from point A to point B safely and on time, and not making the run in order to collect their paycheck, then CTA will truly became a world class transit system.
Yes, there are quite a few good rail operators and bus drivers on the system. They come to work, deal with the BS, and still have a good attitude. The understand that if I don't keep coming back, there will be cutbacks. However, the few make it bad for the many. This is true in a lot of organizations.
I espescially feel bad if friend comes from out of town to visit and they are harrassed, yes the word is harrassed, by some operators when they are taking pictures. I'm guessing they think we're selling these pictures to CTA management. Or what do they have to hide?
I've already challenged one pretty obnoxious operator on the Blue Line, asking her to call the control center to verify the CTA policy on photo's. I got the middle digit salute from that happy camper.
Thanks to you, and the other level headed CTA managers who realize that most railfans are responsible, know the dangers of a railroad, and respect private property. We appreciate the support!
Jim K.
Chicago
I'd have taken a picture of that, and snet it in to control.
Elias
jshaw@chicagotransit.com
Thanks again!
-- David
Philadelpia, PA
--Mark
I assume you use this parking structure at Wells and Lake to get the best shots of Tower 18?
--Mark
However, I personally know two people who have been ordered off the property when they were seen you gararge attendents. It has to do with insurance, or so they say. The attendents threatened to call the police. For a while, there was a sign in the window downstairs by the elevator that stated "Private property, no photographers".
All railfans should respect private property.
As for the CTA - their official management policy on photographing is as long as you're not a professional and don't stay at one location too long, it is OK. Don't expect to set up a video for hours at a time at one location.
Most operators however are not happy with photos of any kind and some will tell you that you can't take pictures on CTA property. Just challenge them to call the "control center" to check the official policy - that will take the wind out of their crap.
Jim K.
Chicago
Thanks again!
Contact CTA Customer Service at 1-888-YOUR-CTA or
1-888-968-7282 weekdays from 7:00am to 8:00pm or E-mail us
at ctahelp@transitchicago.com
As many have said before, as long as it looks like you're doing casual photography, you shouldn't have any trouble.
In Highland Park, a half-dozen men wearing dust masks and ear plugs used jackhammers to chip away the concrete beneath the Historic Highland Park Station platform.
"A lot of workers are trying to do a good job because they don't want to do it twice,' said Greg Tse with Kiewit/Washington, the primary contractor on the Gold Line project. "We're looking forward to getting it over with.'
Tse said inspectors discovered that the crawl space under the platform, where someone caught on the tracks can duck to escape an oncoming train, was too small.
The problem had been fixed on the east side of the platform, Tse continued, and crews planned to work through Saturday to finish the west side.
Mostly quality control checks are finding small problems. For instance, a malfunctioning toilet was found the day before at the East Pasadena Station in Pasadena, Tse said. Roto-Rooter was called to get that fixed.
At the Southwest Museum Station in Los Angeles, Luis Aleman and Tom Peachee were adding a new layer of concrete on the long ramp that leads up to the platform. The two man crew had been there since 7 a.m. and expected to run into overtime.
"His hand is as smooth as a surgeon's,' Aleman joked as he watched Peachee smooth the concrete. They said the crews chosen to do the finishing touches are the "cream of the crop' those who can handle the long hours while avoiding mistakes.
The ramp was being fixed to meet Americans with Disabilities Act standards. Peachee said they would finish there on Thursday and then move to the Lincoln Heights/Cypress Park Station to fix another ramp.
"There are going to be little jobs continuing right up to opening day and even afterwards,' said Nate Baguio, spokesman for the Gold Line. But most of the work will be minor, like painting or adding landscaping. "You won't see large crews doing any work,' he said.
At Pasadena's Lake Avenue Station, workers will have to even out the concrete tiles on the platform. A few light fixtures need to be added along the stairwells, as well.
City officials in Pasadena are also making a few improvements of their own. Planters and sidewalks are being built at the Lake Avenue Station, both to dress it up and prevent traffic problems, said City Engineer Dan Rix. The work should be completed early next week, before the Gold Line opens July 26, he added.
Sidewalks around the East Pasadena Station are being widened and a right turn lane is being added at Sierra Madre and Foothill boulevards to help improve traffic flow from the nearby parking structure.
A few projects will wait until after the opening, Rix said, such as a planned clock tower at the Lake Avenue Station and sidewalk canopy made of solar cells.
Now I know I have to rail fan along the Gold Line. That toilet in the East Pasadena Station is the first one I have ever heard of in the whole system. I would be amazed if it is a public rest room. :-)
Tom
Jimmy
NOTE: My e-mail address has been changed but can access from this site.
JLA
Won't be there tomorrow though... sorry to miss you. Enjoy!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Jimmy
The second one finds me awakened from a dream and told to enter this big dark building. As I do I search for a light and find that I am in a small room with a big cealing. As I press a button a large door opens and in the middle of the building is The Cyclone.
Mark
Don't tell me there was a connection to the 76th St. station !
Bill "Newkirk"
It already is a dungeon.
Here's a weird dream I had a few weeks ago. It involved the lower level at 42nd St. But instead of there being one track and one platform, there were four tracks and two platforms, and they swerved diagonally in the middle of the station! There was a train of hybrid R-32/38s signed up as an E. The cars were in as-delivered condition, with the bulkhead signs and marker lights outlined as on the R-38s, but the doors were dark blue, R-32 style.
And speaking of R-32s, I had another dream in which they were running on Chicago's Red line!
As for passengers being dumb - have you been on a train lately?
And Alex.....now, now. Be nice.
Woman on s/b Q at Seventh Ave: - I want to go to 36 Ave in Brooklyn.
Me - There is no 36 Ave in Brooklyn.
Woman - Where CostCo is.
Me - The only CostCo I know in Brooklyn is on Third Ave. Go back to deKalb, go to the other platform and wait for the W or R.
Woman - Why didn't this one go there?
Me - Because this is a Q.
Woman - Then why did it stop at Whitehall?
Me - Because it is supposed to.
Woman - But you said it's a Q?
Me - Yes (indication finally came in and we left).
"This is a D train, right?"
"Yes."
"Why are the street numbers going up at each stop? I want to go to Brooklyn."
"This train's going to the Bronx. You want to get off at Rockefeller Center, go upstairs and down to the platform on the other side."
"No, I want to go to Brooklyn. I don't want to go to Rockefeller Center."
"Rockefeller Center is the next stop, you can get off there and get a train to Brooklyn on the other side."
"Can't you just turn THIS one around? It's going the wrong way."
"Sorry, I have to go to the Bronx, that's where they've sent this train."
"What's your name and badge number?"
Slam, click. :)
Back in the old days, when the TA owned a projector, there was a training film we were required to watch. I'll sum it up here:
Laws Of Slow People
1. Slow people always walk side by side, even if they don't
know each other.
2. They drive side by side, too. If they can't find another
slow driver to pair up with, they drive in the fast lane.
3. Slow walkers never look back. When they drive, they never
look in their rearview mirrors, either.
4. Slow people drift sideways so they'll block the path of
anyone trying to pass them. If two people or vehicles are
trying to get around them at the same time, they drift into
the path of the one that is moving at the highest speed.
5. Follow behind a slow person in the grocery store and you'll
wind up with soggy ice cream every time.
6. If you spot Slow people approaching your train, the holding
lights are out. Ignore those three orange lamps, close up.
That is really funny. Even my non-railfan roommate liked it. Why did no one reply to it?
I agree that it was funny, but what in it requires a response?
Tom
To tell him it was funny, that you liked it, and he should continue posting such things in the future.
In other words, the "LOL" kind of response which, when done by ten to twenty posters, makes trying to read the Sub Talk posts such a waste of time. Maybe it is time for Dave to cut back the number of posts per day to ten.
Tom
You're right, I hate LOL. LOL should never be in a post alone. If you follow my instructions that won't happen.
Maybe it is time for Dave to cut back the number of posts per day to ten.
The hell it is!!!!!
For those who WANT to, anyone want to tell their own version of the frequent fliers from out of town who come up to you in the cab and ask if you can open up one of the OTHER bathrooms on the train? :)
Then, a couple of years ago I found THIS place. And while I always had an affinity for trains, being in the company HERE of current day folks, I've found an appreciation for the situations I went through NOT being unique at all. I *still* think the MTA is overloaded with pinheads, but generally they're not found IN the trains. :)
Bingbong busts my chops among folks I've met here, "When he worked for the TA, he DESPISED it. NOW he's all gooey about it." Heh. But yeah, seeing the same stations back and forth, day in and day out has got to be the most BONECRUSHING boring-arsed job there is. The thrill wears off quickly. At least the paycheck sorta makes up for it. If it wasn't for all the nonsense though, wouldn't be so bad.
Bottom line, if you're a foamer, a job with the TA *will* cure it. :)
STILL, great to play with an old friend and "feel her up" ... nothing like the satisfaction of a LAP dance with an Arnine to bring back many fond memories. But still, all things considered, the MTA doesn't HAVE enough beer to make ME interested in ever coming back, running subway trains for a pick, no matter WHAT line you run (I started out on the BRIGHTON, from there EVERY other pick was uphill and only four motors) so while life cut me a chitty deal at the time, and for my own trying to get along with folks who didn't WANT me at Stillwell, and a nasty revelation that followed a couple of years later - well ... God took GOOD care of me.
Had I stayed there, I probably would have "wounded or maimed" either a "customer," a beakie, or I would have gone USPS and headed for Brooklyn on a "Mission from God" and taken out as many as I could. Heh. "You talking to ME?" ... fortunately for ALL, I moved out of the city to SquirrelLand and other festivities. I'm MUCH better now. But had I stayed at the TA, not been forced into my hobby of ELECTRONICS and COMPUTERS and POLITICS ... well ... heh.
Bottom line, I woulda gone insane had I been with the TA for 6 more months. God is good, God is great, God stuffed our faces with chocolate cake. Then came Shrub. :)
Scenario: About three years, just before the Manny-B switcheroo. My daily routine involves going from Rockefeller Center down to 34th, on 6th ave. I take whatever I get at Rock. This time, an F and one of the expresses arrive at the exact same time. I pick the F.
We arrive at 42nd together. I watch as the express closes up, and pulls out. Meanwhile, my F is still sitting there. I stick my head out, I see a bunch of red signals in the tunnel, and the tail end of another F in front of us. Not a good sign.
The conductor comes on: "Ladies and gentlemen, because of a disabled train in front of us, this F train will be running express from 34th to West 4th. If you're going to 23rd or 14th, take this train to West 4th; at West 4th go upstairs and across, and take the F local in the opposite direction."
I watch as half the train empties out, and the crowd marches up the stairs and across to the other side. Soon thereafter we get the signal to cross over to the express, close up, and proceed.
Canal St S/B, on the (4) train, day of the brown (R) GO. C/R says at every station, "the last stop on this train will be Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall. For continued service to Brooklyn and Fulton St, Wall St, & Bowling Green, transfer for special R train service at Brooklyn Bridge. Take that to Fulton Street or Boro Hall and change for the 3. DO NOT get off at Canal Street for the R. Stay on this train to Brooklyn Bridge."
Of course, half the train got off at Canal St muttering about the R train, after looking at the subway map and completely disregarding the C/R's repeated and thorough announcements.
http://famulus.msnbc.com/famulusgen/ap07-19-021133.asp?t=apnew&vts=71920030613
Then your beloved rats would have died !
Bill "Newkirk"
Peace,
ANDEE
subfan
http://www.msnbc.com/local/WNBC/A1704225.asp
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/20/nyregion/20SUBW.html
More Than 60 People Hospitalized After Subway Track Fire
By Eyewitness News Reporter Kemberly Richardson
(New York-WABC, July 19, 2003) — A subway track fire sends dozens of straphangers scrambling on Saturday morning. It happened on the tracks of the F train in downtown Brooklyn.
Witnesses said the only way out was walking about a half a mile down a dark, smoky tunnel alongside subway tracks. It was dangerous, and many people didn't think they were going to make it out. About a 100 people were standing on the platform and some were riding on the F train, as it pulled into the York Street station in downtown Brooklyn. They also said they heard several loud explosions, saw bright orange flashes, and began immediately breathing in thick, black smoke. People huddled together on the platform, before making the decision to find a way out.
John Reilly, Eyewitness: "When we got off the train, everyone started running towards the opposite end. The stairs were totally overcome with smoke. We couldn't get out that way...and we were trying to go down the track...they would not let us go down the track. It was the only safe exit. The smoke was rolling in...like three feet every 10 seconds."
Leah Key, Eyewitness: "You heard several explosions...like about seven or eight explosions. I was worried...but it's like I knew there was a way out...but I honestly thought I was going to die of smoke or whatever. Because there was a lot...a lot of smoke. At one point, I couldn't breathe. People started gagging."
Chief Rod O'Connor, FDNY: "In this type of weather, the smoke gets very heavy...stratifies...and it is very difficult to remove...and we can't put the exhaust fans on until we know exactly what type of fire situation we have in the subway tunnel."
Fire officials believe the cause of the fire was a part -- known as a shoe -- that connects to the third rail for power. The shoe is thought to have come loose and started to spark. About 100 people were evacuated and more than 60 of them had to go to the hospital for smoke inhalation.
i also saw the news,the said it was the 3rd rail shoe beam that caused
the fire.and it was an R46 that got damaged.didn,t get the car numbers
though.did anybody see the car numbers.?and can it be repaired?
til next time
Which is why, as I said earlier, that the tunnel is a last-resort exit.
Most IND stations probably have multiple exits, though.
Expect to see 6132 (and possibly at least one of its mates) at CIY for quite some time. I hope that the train can be repaired and be able to run in service again.
Looks pretty burnt on the exterior but the photo shows the car lights still on.
wayne
I'd hardly call a train that is almost 30 years old, new.
Peace,
ANDEE
Rip Van Winkle wakes up after a long, deep sleep....:0)
on another note,i got on an exprees 4 train,the train was in consecutive order(7161-7165&7166-7170)R142.and going back home,i saw
R142 1176-1180.had a great time.and they had a G.O going to the bronx
from BB city hall to grand central.had some fun on the IRT east side.
til next time
The Daily News reported that the motorman and conductor held the passengers in the station until the power was shut off. The conductor was hospitalized with breathing difficulties after he did his best to protect the passengers.
Daily News article
The New York Post presented a whole different story:
New York Post story
And here's the Newsday article:
Newsday article
From all reports, this was quite a serious situation and credit is due to all crew members, track workers, police, fire and ems workers who helped saved the passengers lives.
I wonder if it was just a shoe that came off?
In 100+ years of subways, car department, things going bad on a crew, THIS was a first of its kind. TALK about a "freak accident" ... :(
Also I just ran into an article about the incident in the People's Daily from Mainland China. It looks like they did a little cut and paste job, but I was amused at their ending the article with an explanation in the rerouting of service on the F. Maybe they have a big railfan readership.
People's Daily report
Situation HERE sounds like the show actually fell off and got caught between the third rail and the track, or perhaps one of the wheels. Rare event, but does happen ...
OTOH, we certainly can't dig out second exits from half the stations in the system.
That makes it sound like they stopped there randomly. What the Post doesn't say is that there is always at least one, sometimes six officers posted there around the clock. I use that station every day.
I am glad that the fire was at this station instead of one without police, otherwise that fire may have gone on for much longer before being noticed.
My biggest fear is getting trapped in one of those cars with both end doors locked and heavy smoke. Locked doors are a huge hazard in this situation. I understand that they are locked for safety concerns when those long cars are moving, but they should be unlocked.
To me, this is more of a safety problem than fix. If you need to get out of a car for whatever reason, even if just to get away from someone you don't want to be near, there is no way to do so between stations, and it would be pretty hard to argue with a crew or police that you had to break out 2 windows to leave a car just because some weirdo was looking at you funny or trying to incite an arguement/fight...
I guess when some gets killed some day they'll get the idea...
When the 75-foot cars go around certain turns, there is a shearing action between the cars that could be fatal to anyone crossing between them.
Incidentally, SIR doesn't lock their R-44 doors, but recently they removed the switch that would unlock them if they were locked, presumably to prevent people from getting into closed cars or cabs adjacent to blind ends. The MTA R-44s and 46s had that switch removed with the GOH...
LIRR has 85' cars, and never locks the doors.
SIR does not have to make the corner at Broadway and Canal Street, and likely enough does not have the curve problems that would be encountered in the subway.
Now a question: Do the 44s on SIR have diferent truck spacings then on NYCT?
You put the trucks closer to the ends of the cars and there is less overhang when going through switches or on curves, but the center needs more clearance, which is not always found in tunnels.
So does NYCT shorten the wheelbase for an optimum performance in the tunnels and sacrifice with wider swings at the ends of the cars?
Elias
Easiest way to figure out is by looking at the R46s on the R. If the yellow is sorta dark, its an old sign. But if the yellow looks bright and flourescent (think the yellow used in highlighters), it's likely a new sign.
At 9:30am we meet up at Times Square (At the 10 car marker on the 7 line, "local track") then take the 7 to Main Street and take the Q65 to Jamaica and take the J to Essex Street (Lunch Break might happen here) Then take the F to Avenue X then take the B1 or B4 to the N 86 Street Station. Ride the N to Pacific Street to take the Q to Sheepshead Bay to take the Q Beach Bus to Coney Island to grab the W to Union Square to the L train to Rockaway Parkway and back to Broadway Junction to take the A to Mott Avenue (Far Rockaway) back on the A to 59 Street to take the 1 (Beacause 125 Street Viaduct counts) to 242 Street then take the Bx10 to the 4 Line and take it to 149 Street and take the 5 or 2 line to their terminal then back to 125 Street and take the 6 Line and then end the trip at Pehlam Bay Park.
Remember this is only the preliminary plan, this plan is subject to change. So mark your calenders!
1 correction:
to 242 Street then take the Bx10 to the 4 Line
is better said as:
to 242 Street then take the Bx9 to the 4 Line
The Bx9 stops right under the 242 Terminal... the Bx10 under 231.
Go for the 9
:)
You know, we ( 1 )'s have a name for people like you....
Rhymes with brassknoll. LOL :)
I do like the viaduct (and the rest of your skinny little (1) line), I just started thinking, "where could the most gratuitous, distant, out-of-the-way bus trip for this whole thing be?" Sure enough ... 242nd street. Given a whole day up there, though, Kingsbridge is one of my favorite neighborhoods to walk around.
Too bad they couldn't make up their minds how deep to run your dumb subway.
Welcome!
I'll probably come as long as you make the trip to Motts Avenue first.
I'm *MOVING* to New York City (hopefully for good) on either 8/21 or 8/23. If the move happens on 8/21, I'm game for this trip. I suppose it's a great way to better familiarize myself with the system I'll be using an infinite number of times in the years ahead.
Chris, as a newcomer to west Queens, I can also tell you, we missed the Astoria.
It's our pleasure to serve you ... QSC :-)
8-) ~ Sparky
Run the V train to Church Av making all stops during rush hours only.
Run two F trains, one would have Coney Island trains make express stops between Church Av & Jay St while the Kings Highway trains would make all stops between Jay St & Church Av.
Riders between Kings Highway & Jay St along the local stops would have more frequent service.
Any comments, please post.
Why do you not want the V to run to Church during its entire normal weekday operating period?
The V would be the local service and the F would resume as the express service.
The reason it can not be done now are two fold
1-Not enough cars. The Manhattan Bride service plan will take up all current cars after all the R-143's are on the property and are placed in service on the L and M lines. Since i take the L line daily i can report that 4 trains of R 42's are still being used
2-Reconstruction of the Bergen Street Tower
Thank You
But then the Culver Line's "inner-zone" stations would have a letter other than F. While that may seem petty, remember that many residents of Park Slope and Cobble Hill are former Manhattanites whose property values are based largely on having reliable F train service at all times. A service with any other letter may be reliable, but it won't be the F.
Compare with complaints in 1991 about NYCT's proposal to route the Q to 207th Street ("it has to be the A because the song says so"), or with the importance of the 212 area code in Manhattan property values.
Letter F line has a long tradition going back to the early years of the IND. As long as New York has a subway, it should have the F especially under Queens Blvd.
Personally, I don't think the ridership on the Culver will increase by enough to run many more trains than they do right now, unless the TA was willing to lose money on the line to provide express service. The F has always been an acceptable option for people living along its route, unlike some lines, and most people along its route have been employed. So you won't get the huge increases due to demographic shifts that you get on some lines, and housing growth is slow. The other option is to draw riders from other lines, but with the Manny B fully open, you might get some of the reverse.
I grew up in Sheepshead Bay and was spoiled by Brighton Express service all of my life. That is, after they restarted it during mid-day weekdays in 1967.
So now that you aren't living there you're bitching about the TA's restoring express service...:0)
Residents want a service they used to have. The TA is restoring it.
It is laughable, or should be.
Then again, let's go back to one of the examples I cited in my earlier post. As part of the 1991 service cut proposal, the A would have run local to 168th and the Q would have been the Central Park West express to 207th. The community's response reflected what I call the "Ellington-Strayhorn theory" of service planning: The primary CPW express service had to be the A because the song in general and one reference in particular ("the quickest way to Harlem") created an obligation on NYCT's part to retain the A as an express.
NYCT actually decided, as a back-up plan, to relabel both routes (A became C, while Q became A) in response to the "Ellington-Strayhorn" complaints. If the proposal had actually been implemented, the A would have run between 207th Street and Brighton Beach via CPW-Sixth-Brighton Express!
Some people may think it silly, but I'd say that tradition has some value and should be respected if reasonable to do so.
We boarded at 86th as a D was passing.
We passed the D between 86th and 81st.
It passed us at 81st.
We passed it between 81st and 72nd.
It passed us at 72nd.
We passed it between 72nd and 59th.
We got off at 59th. The C pulled out. About half a minute later, the D showed its headlights.
This C was particularly crowded, being the first local after a stalled train at 116th was cleared. (In the interim, one B was sent down the express and one C -- presumably the train that had been stalled -- ran light down the local. So the train we rode was carrying three trainloads.) Dwell times were longer than averge. There was no obvious congestion on the express track. This took place after 10am.
Or ask me about the time I rode a C from 86th to 168th a year or two ago. An A went by around when I got on the C. At 168th the C just missed a connection with the A one interval ahead.
CBTC doesn't affect grade timers. If a grade timer is warranted, a grade timer is warranted regardless of the signal system.
Timers are NYCT's highly inefficient way of insuring a certain speed isn't exceeded along a certain stretch of track. The result is that T/Os go slower than the max allowed speed just in case the timer is set poorly, and they do so for a greater distance than the specific condition actually requires.
CBTC, if properly implemented, can allow the reduced speed to be held for a shorter distance and more precisely.
Grade timers, if properly implemented also allow for the reduced speed to be held for a minimum distance.
The "precision" of a CBTC control is a myth under NYCT's implementation. The commands from the CBTC system that get sent to the trainline network are operator based: e.g. place controller in position 3; place brake in position 2; etc. It is not cruise control: maintain 27.5 mph or brake at 2 mph/sec to stop at chainmark xxx.
The pity is that the flexibility provided by modern AC motor controllers has been completely lost. NYCT has succeeded in making 1980's technology mimic 1900's performance in 2000 and for the forseeable future.
Ahh, but you're forgetting; Manhattus, that lovely little island, is just tailor-made for limited-stop subway trains running up and down its avenues. They are the red and white blood cells traveling through the veins of the city. So too are the territories of Brooklyn, Bronx and Queens aided by the express routes. Don't discount their value. It's more than time metrics.
You've mentioned before that ridership in areas with high welfare rates tends to be low due to the lack of everyday commuting. I guess the F in Brooklyn is in the opposite situation.
BALDERDASH!
I used to live two blocks from the (F) in Brooklyn, but always walked the 6 blocks to DeKalb or Atlantic to get the (QB) train. I just could not tolerate how slow the (F) was through the Rutgers Tunnel to 6th Avenue.
NOW THEN:
I have written my plan here before, but since you were not listening :^)
Here it is again.
(V) 6th Avenue Local to WORLD TRADE CENTER 16/5
(G) Crosstown Local to Church Avenue 24/7
(F) 6th Avenue Local / Culver Local to Coney Island 24/7
(C) 8th Avenue Local / Culver Express to Kings Highway 16/5
(E) 8th Avenue Express / Fulton Street Local 16/5 else to WTC
Rational:
1) No changes to (F) service, no cuts to places now served.
2) (V) provides 6th Avenue Service to Downtown Presently there is none.
3) (A) and (E) service as 8th Ave Exp eliminates downtown switching, all 8 Ave Express trains will take the Cranberry Route, the (C) takes the Rutgers that has excess capacity.
Part of extending trains provides better service by getting them out of Downtown before switching them.
Maybe Culver does not *NEED* an express train, but we do need a place where we can turn the sucker. (Church cannot turn two services)
Track arrangements on the Culver do not permit the express trains to continue to Coney Island, the must end at Kings Highway if another service is to be added. CI does not thave the capacity to turn two services on the Culver.
Think not only of "maybe we can do..." it affects every part of the subway, especially if you are not careful what is happening at the other end, or at junctions.
Elias
(V) Culver Express 16/5 (->CI)
other lines no changes
is better
I probably won't offend any of you guys, because this board is probably BELOW a Carroll Street resident.
Only half serious.
The (Q) will be Local 24/7, the (B) will be express 16/5.
On the West end the (D) will run because it is a 24/7 route, the (B) is not.
Elias
What's this? I never heard about this. Where on earth would the (A) train have gone? How would that have affected (B)(D) service? Would the (B) have been the 63rd St Line? Hey, this sounds kinda interesting. What was wrong with it?
The Q would, of course, go via the 63rd St tunnel.
But something will have to be assigned to the Second Av Subway's first leg, and that will probably be the Q.
Do you have a better candidate? Do you want to send the F train there instead? Considering that one Broadway service (the R) already serves Queens Blvd, it would be unwise to devote another and then not offer Sixth Av service at all.
That's why the Q will be headed north in future.
Nonsense. If anything, the folks are licking their chops to get an F express back (remember, they used to have one) Property values are based on reliable subway service.
"Compare with complaints in 1991 about NYCT's proposal to route the Q to 207th Street ("it has to be the A because the song says so"), or with the importance of the 212 area code in Manhattan property values."
You're giving an insignificant event event a lot more hot air than it even generated back then. The 212 issue was serious, but New Yorkers have finished bitching and moaning about it - and lo and behold, their property values have not suffered at all.
I feel it was a slap in the face that perfectly respectable letters like B and D were removed from service south of 34th Street and replaced with letters from the bottom of the alphabet, like Q and W. Whatta insult!
www.forgotten-ny.com
What in particular is "insulting" about Q and W? What "respectable" attributes do B and D have that Q and W lack?
Arghhhhh. I was being FACETIOUS.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I guess we all look at things very differently - I was offended when the the "T" was replaced with the invading "B" from that foreign line that runs up sixth avenue ;-)
About the Shuttle Bus, they are poorly run, IMO. The bus I got on was already crowded and for some reason, the bus assigned was one of those RTS' with the Surburban-style seating. Why do you even need such a bus for this route? BTW, does anyone know where these buses come from? I don't know what bus assignments are in Brooklyn.
David
Wow, I had no idea it was that expensive! So there's over 200 suburbans that now run on local routes man no wonder there wasn't a mass conversion to transit seats.
I swear to you that 9 days out of ten my F train skip-stops between B'way LaFayette & Jay in the evening rush. If the V train were also to Brooklyn, at least to Church (though I would argure for making the V the Kings Hwy train the the F the Ave X/Coney train), you would not have the F train getting held-up all along 6th Avenue by passengers trying to cram themselves in and the doors not being able to close because they could't get on the V train because it wasn't going where they wanted to go and this results in the F train lagging so much they have to skip-stop (even tho the C/R announces "express," its not really express but skip-stop skipping 2nd Av, E. B'way & York) by the time the train makes the turn outta W4 and hits B'way-Laf because most people who ride the 6th Avenue trains aren't riding to East Broadway or 2nd Av, but rather to Brooklyn (a trickle use Delancey to change to the J/M/Z) which results in empty downtown V trains clogging-up the trunk for the F train which is the one most downtown 6th Av. passengers want becaue its going to Brooklyn I know this is a run-on sentence but I think its fitting here....
Of course, the easy fix would be to simply swap the letters (F from Church to Continental, V from Avenue X to 179th), but then the Queens Blvd express crowd would lose their favored letter.
Whose property values are more important? :-)
I'm sure that they could run the V to Kings Highway although Church would be the ideal terminal [better turning capabilities and more tracks].
This is NOT true. According to the way I heard things here, Church, even though it has mor tracks than King's Highway, does NOT have more turning capacity. It has to do with how far the crossover is from the station. Apparently the length of "wrong railing" is too great to get good capacity out of that station.
Remember it was never intended to be a terminal, but rather it was supposed to be a JUNCTION for the Ft. Hamilton line to Staten Island!
but first I want to get something straight... this refers to the F train trackage just past Jay Street, correct? Are they rebuilding this connection, or severing this connection? I've seen them do a lot of work on it lately.
Or is this something completely different?
It is south of Jay actually. They are rebuilding the entire Bergen interlokcing that was damaged due to a fire in 1999.
Anyway here are my ideas for the culver line, assuming they get those express tracks back in operation. Again I'm not sure if shortage of cars would be an issue here.
Before Stillwell Avenue re-opens
F Train
Rush Hours, Middays, Evenings until 10 PM: Express in both directions, Jay Street to Church Avenue.
Other times: All stops.
G Train
Rush Hours, Middays, Evenings until 10 PM: Extended to Church Avenue, all station stops.
Other times: Terminates at Smith/9th Street.
V Train
Regular times of operation: Runs to Church Avenue, all stops.
After Stillwell Avenue re-opens
F Train
Rush Hours: Express in both directions, Jay Street to Church Avenue. Express in peak direction, Church Avenue to Kings Highway.
Middays and Evenings until 10 PM: Express in both directions, Jay Street to Church Avenue.
Other Times: All stops.
G Train
Rush Hours, Middays, Evenings until 10 PM: Extended to Church Avenue, all station stops.
Other times: Terminates at Smith/9th Street.
V Train
Rush Hours: Runs to Kings Highway, all stops (or maybe Avenue X, whichever is more feasible).
Other times of operation: Runs to Church Avenue, all stops.
Or the second option, do it as it was years ago, when during rush hours, "Kings Highway" F trains would go local, and "Coney Island" F trains would go express in peak direction. In this scenario the V would go to Church Avenue during regular operating hours.
The main points of my idea are,
- G train riders can travel to/from Church Avenue on weekdays without switching trains.
- Riders at local stations between Bergen Street and Church Avenue now have two lines serving them on weekdays. They can take the G train to the crosstown line, or they can take the V train straight into Manhattan. Unless your destination is to and from the upper east side or Queens, there's no need to take the F train (because after Jay Street the V makes F stops to Rockefeller Center anyway).
- Following the reopening of Stillwell, Brooklyn F riders along McDonald Avenue and near Coney Island can save time when travelling to and from Manhattan on weekdays (even more time to and from express stations during rush hours).
The need for additional cars might make this tough to do... but does anyone have any comments?
Before Stillwell Avenue re-opens
F Train
Rush Hours, Middays, Evenings until 10 PM: Express in both directions, Jay Street to Church Avenue.
Other times: All stops.
G Train
Rush Hours, Middays, Evenings until 10 PM: Extended to Church Avenue, all station stops.
Other times: Terminates at Smith/9th Street.
V Train
Regular times of operation: Runs to Church Avenue, all stops.
Right now it isn't really possible to run the V to Brookl and from what somebody said a while back, the interlockings at Church Av needed some work so that's another con of implementing it so soon. BTW, these interlockings most likely won't be done until after Stillwell reopens in early-mid 2004 anyway. Why not just extend the G to Church Av all times except nights [at some times in the weekends the Culver has decent ridership north of Church] in which they can terminate at Smith/9.
When you make a subject line, don't say its completed, because its not.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
The subject line is a completely grammatical phrase that is compeltely unambiguous to those who know the English language. I can say I will do something when hell freezes over, and everyone knows that this does not in fact imply that hell has already frozen over.
They cannot turn two services at church.... The crossover is too far away... too much "wrong railing"
Elias
F: same
G: extended to Church rush hours or all day weekdays (depending on V below)
V: extended past 2nd Ave rush hours or all day weekdays in the following manner: all stops to Smith/9th, express stops to Church Ave, express stops in peak direction to Kings Hwy (terminus).
As another Subtalker pointed out, price values or some other economic thing requires the F to operate local as it does now on the Culver line. If the V was a local, then I'd agree running it below Church would be unnecessary, but since the F must run local, it would be ridiculous to have an express start at Church. Maybe the F and V should just both run local?
On the other hand, running the F express will save everyone from Church south a few minutes, add service at Church and 7th, and will ultimately add tph at local stations south of Smith-9th.
That Subtalker was wrong. Price values and rider demand require that the F run express - but it wasn't physically able to until now.
The MTA has it right on this one.
I think it's the best idea
The Best idea is to run the F as the express.
Think about the A and C trains. The A continues beyond Euclid, but the C terminates there. When the C isn't running, the A is a local. Same concept.
Additionally, the F is already an express.
The only potential inconvenience would be for passengers north of Bergen wanting a local stop when the V is running express in Brooklyn -- they'd either have to change to or wait for the F. Given the frequency of F & V service during peak, it really shouldn't be much of a problem.
The following is the information that was given me
1-No weekend trunk line may not have more than 24 trains per hour because of general orders due to construction. Because of this restriction then it will not be possible to operate 4 services on the 8th Avenue Line. With this information i submitted the following plan
B Line-As proposed by the TA (No changes)
D Line-As proposed by the TA (No changes)
G Line- Midnight hour service to be discontinued between Queens Plaza and Continental Ave-See R Line before
M Line-Midday service from Metropolitan Ave to 9th Ave
N Line-Will operate daily except midnight hours between Stillwell Ave and 57th St-7th Ave via Sea Beach Local,4th Ave Express,Manhattan Bridge,Broadway Express. Midnight hours between Stillwell Ave and Pacific Street only via Sea Beach Local,4th Ave Express
Q Line-Will operate at all times between Stillwell Ave and Ditmars Blvd/Astoria via Brighton Local,Manhattan Bridge,Broadway Express between Canal Street and 34th Street when the W Line operates weekdays,Broadway Local from 34th Street to Astoria when W Line operates and from Canal Street to Astoria when the W Line does not operate.
R Line-Will operate at all times between Continental Ave and 95th St/4th Ave.
W Line-As proposed by the TA
My proposal will do the following:
1-Improve Queens Blvd Local service to and from Manhattan during midnight hours especially between Queens Plaza and 65th Street where only 1 manhattan service operates
2-Gives Astoria Line riders Broadway Local service at all times between the Q and W Lines from Canal Street to Queens.
3-Still maintains Brighton Line service to Broadway Express weekdays and to Broadway Line Local stations when the B Line does not operate instead of having Brighton Line passengers change for the D late nights and weekends. See My chart
6TH AVE STATION BROADWAY LINE STATION
Grand Street Canal Street
Broadway-Lafaytte Prince Street
West 4th Street 8th Street
34th Street SAME STATION 34th Street
42nd Street Times Square
47th/50th Streets 49th Street
If you notice the differnce is only 1 block at Broadway Lafayette,42nd Street and 47th-50th Street and a couple of blocks for the Grand Street and West 4th Street
The TA rejected my plan for the following
1-They do not want to make any changes NORTH of 57th Street
2-My Q Line Routing is to complicated. Look at their proposed N Line Routing which is just as complicated
3-Can not change the G Line
4- M Service not needed middays in Brooklyn south of Chambers Street
I would appreciate your comments
Thank You
While your specific plan was rejected, please note the following:
1) Since some elements of the TA's plan are the same, or very similar, to yours, you're getting some of what you want.
2) You've learned something about their thinking, and have established a basis for further discussion. The folks there do appreciate hearing from people like you, whether or not they implement specific ideas you put forth.
3) By posting the results here, you're sharing that knowledge with others on the board.
"2-My Q Line Routing is to complicated. Look at their proposed N Line Routing which is just as complicated "
Your criticism could be quite valid. However, can you tell us something more about why a complex N-routing might, or might not be, easier to accomplish than a complex Q-routing? Again, you you could be right. You have an opportunity now to dissect this further.
I like what you've done very much. I hope other Subtalkers follow your example.
Barry
I also commend the TA for responding to you, and in enough detail to show they read your plan. SOP was always to just ignore people.
I was told by Operations Planning people whats wrong with my plan at the hearing June 12th
Thank You
No, wrong, and unfair for you to say. SOP was to ignore ranters. If you treated TA folks with dignity and respect they returned same.
My correspondence with the TA goes back maybe 15-17 years. Got a few "pr" letters, but the vast majority were written in a way that shows somebody was reading my stuff carefully. And I've always been shown respect and courtesy (not to mention that three of my suggestions have been implemented over the years...)
I agree that late night R service should be restored to Queens Blvd & Manhattan but then cutting the G may give riders the impression that they are getting the short end of the stick.
The TA rejected my plan for the following
1-They do not want to make any changes NORTH of 57th Street
2-My Q Line Routing is to complicated. Look at their proposed N Line Routing which is just as complicated
3-Can not change the G Line
4- M Service not needed middays in Brooklyn south of Chambers Street
1) I think its best to leave the service north of 57 as is.
2) I don't think your Q route is complicated at all, its pretty simple IMO.
3) This is probably b/c of the fear of complaints.
4) I find this one to be very questionable. I think the M terminating at Chambers in the midday is quite rididculous and forces people to make another transfer, sometimes two.
I think this is a good suggestion that would simplify the late night routings alot-no N going 3 different ways for weekdays (Broadway Express via Bridge), weekends (Broadway Local via Bridge) and late nights (Broadway Local via Tunnel). Of course this might result in the N becoming a shuttle at late nights. One N Sea Beach shuttle and another W Astoria shuttle? That might be seen as slighting some riders-Sea Beach, Astoria and Crosstown for Queens Boulevard riders-something the MTA might be wary of.
Eventually will they have to change the G route when the Bergen Street work is finished?
6Av:
(B) ->BB Brighton Express;rush & midday
(D) ->CI West End;4Av X
Bway:
(Q) Astoria-CI Brighton Local;bridge;Bway L
(N) 57St-CI Sea Beach;4Av X;bridge;Bway X; Later 125St on SAS
(R) FH-95St 4Av Local;tunnel;nights 4Av Shuttle
Nassau:
->Bay Pkway West End;rush hour;midday ->9Av
About a block and a half down the street we see an el line with a train passing on an intersecting street. The entire movie was supposedly filmed in New York.
Since the storyline is about Coney Island, is this scene really in Brooklyn? Does anyone know the el line, the train, or the street shown in the scene?
Any help would be appreciated!
Various short trips are scheduled about twice a day. A trip to Moscow (PA not Russia) was scheduled for 11 AM on the day I was there.The train was made up of six coaches of CNJ and DL&W Heritage.
The DL&W cars were ex-MUs sans the pantographs. Motive power was an ex-Canadian Pacific Class G3C, a 4-6-2 steam locomotive. There is a restored platform in the yard which is where both the steamtown excursion trains and the electric city trolley leave from. Although the yard itself is owned by Steamtown timetable authority here and out on the mainline is by the Delaware-Lackawanna Railroad. We had a nice 13 mile run to Moscow Station which has also been restored. Local Moscovites set up tables at the station selling soda and souvenirs. WE passed through a short tunnel enroute and passed under a few abandoned railroad bridges. When we arrived back in Steamtowm a Canadian Pacific grain train had just pulled in from Michigan and was waiting for us to clear the line. Motive power for this train was two CP Rail SD 40-2 which unfortunately didn't have the power to get the train up the hill leaving Steamtown. He cleared the mall siding but didn't go much further. So the steam locomotive was uncoupled from the excursion train and gave the grain train a shove to clear the interlocing. The Delaware-Lackawanna dispatcher then sent a couple of pusher extras to get the freight over the hill.
The cost for the round trip was $15.00 US.
There is a long wooden ramp running from the yard and over it to connects to the mall and food court which affords great views of the yard.
In Part II I'll cover the Electric City Trolley. (IMHO best traction ridethis side of Branford.)
Larry, RedbirdR33
That's an understatement! The grand reopening was 1991 or 1993, and it is now 100% different and better than in 1990.
There is a restored platform in the yard which is where both the steamtown excursion trains and the electric city trolley leave from.
Actually, it is a brand new platform.
Local Moscovites set up tables at the station selling soda and souvenirs.
Actually, those are member of the Lackawanna and Wyoming Valley Chapter of the National Railway Historical Society, of which my father and I are members. My father was a past president of the chapter, and he volunteers at that table on Sundays.
Motive power for this train was two CP Rail SD 40-2 which unfortunately didn't have the power to get the train up the hill leaving Steamtown. He cleared the mall siding but didn't go much further. So the steam locomotive was uncoupled from the excursion train and gave the grain train a shove to clear the interlocking.
THAT IS AMAZING! I never would have imagined that they would enlist the steam engine to help push the grain train. I'm ashamed to admit, but I must, that I almost didn't believe you. I called up my father just now, and he just so happened to have received a letter in the mail today from a volunteer at Steamtown. In the letter, he related the same story that you did about the grain train on Thursday. I'm sorry I doubted you :) FYI: In the letter, he said that the reason the train couldn't make it up the hill was that the lead SD-40 had died and couldn't be restarted. I wish I could have been there to see and photograph that event. Did you get photos? Did anyone there take photos or video of it?
I'm glad you went. I'm from a small town north of Scranton along the old DL&W (now CP) mainline.
Your friendly new Shore Line member,
Clayton
Lou can be seen in the movie again, thanks for teaching me again!
Jimmy
1) Why is there fencing on the front?
2) Why did you go for caternary over 3rd rail? Is it really just convience?
The "fencing" is wire embedded in a glass "sandwich" - an early version of safety glass, designed to prevent the glass from explosively shattering in the event it is struck by a flying object.
2) Why did you go for caternary over 3rd rail? Is it really just convience?
Branford is in Connecticut, where third rail was outlawed over 100 years ago. And it's not catenary, it's trolley wire... catenary is much more rigid and is used with pantographs whereas trolley wire is more flexible and requires a conventional trolley pole, equipped with either a carbon-insert shoe (a "slider") or a wheel. The R9 (and, I believe, all the r/t equipment) is equipped with a slider while the streetcars all have wheels; I presume that this is due to the higher current draw of the r/t equipment, but one of the r/t specialists would have to confirm that.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Seems the RT equipment gets a lot of "press", though.
--Mark
Jimmy
1575 and 6688
I play everyday in the evening. Maybe we'll both have luck on them in the up coming weeks.
Jimmy
Kevin,
I have a slight variation on the dollars I don't play, its another
dollar, that gets contributed to a project at a "Trolley Museum".
I have a piece of this and and a piece of that. Some major $$$,
others just a slice. Membership in 5 museums, active in three,
have to spread the non-wealth where I can. >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
Chuck Greene
Glad you enjoyed. I would have introduced myself to you more fully if I had realized who you were... I was your friendly operator this morning on 629 from Sprague to Short Beach and back to Farm River Road.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do you have some previous operating experience? Feedback from
your instructor was very good on brake control.
When you turn 18 you can take the course and
qualify here as a regular operator.
-Jeff H.
(Director of Training)
-Clayton
Peace,
ANDEE
8-) ~ Sparky
Jimmy
Anyhow, don't be a stranger...
CHEERS
Jimmy
Doors opened on track side between 9th St and 4th Ave. elevated section, nobody was hurt.
Early Saturday morning smoke and fire under train at York Street. Some admitted for smoke inhalation.
Comment: Fires will happen. But how can the doors open on the track side if the conductor is not stationed on that side of the train when the F is up in the air over the Guwaniss Canal? I do not understand. Could it be an electrical malfunction or could some vandal come in possession of a conductor's key?
Please explain.
I never saw a brake postion called "hold". Usually it is "release" and "run release". Is the hold position the same as running release?
Also, what is the difference between running release and release?
The difference between running and release depends on which
brake schedule you are talking about. On older schedules such
as #24, the full release position recharges the brake pipe rapidly.
It can be used for initial charging and to re-charge after an
emergency application, but is not used for normal release because
of the danger of overcharging the aux reservoirs and then having
the head-end brakes creep back on.
How should I put up photos on my site? I know I should have a digital scanner, but what should use? What software do you recommend?
I haven't got the site online yet. What are my options? I want a free or low-cost server. What are the costs? What kinds of servers are there?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Check this website out @ www.register.com
What type of Internet Connection do you have?
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
The local tracks are beside the Q train tracks [to the right of the s/b BMT track] the express tracks go under halfway into Bergen St I think
2. Why was the other mezzanine closed?
Could be low ridership
3. Do those vents and gratings lead to the IRT tracks?
Actually if you stand on the Manhattan bound platform near the front you could get a glimpse of 2/3 trains.
4. What kind of ridership does this station have during weekday rush hours?
I really don't know
PS - Start Posting Feedback, damn always asking questions but no feedback
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I think he wants to know if the R44 signs have updated A/C destinations [of course I know they are exclusive to the A except in certain circumstances].
PS - Start Posting Feedback, damn always asking questions but no feedback
Come on you already know the deal with Busfan.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Jimmy
Jimmy
It is. Roasting is pretty good too. Eel has a nut-like flavor not found in other types of fish. Skinning one is a real pain, however.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
1. Who organizes these trips?
2. How do I find out about them?
3. Where are all these old cars stored? Does MTA maintain them?
4. How much does it cost to operate a fan trip and go on a fan trip? (I'm sure MTA needs to help plan it out and whatnought by diverting timetables?)
5. When a train pulls into a station, what prevents regular passengers from boarding by accident (ie. They don't know or care its a fan trip, they just wanna get home). ID badges I think are used correct?
Thanks a lot for answering my questions LOL
Independent: Individuals who decide to organize these trips for fun
MTA: Knows there are people who want to ride nostalgic trains so organize these events.
2. How do I find out about them?
Mainly this site and some other transit oriented sites. NY1 does have bulletins about MTA organized trips but it's a bitch waiting 30 minutes for it.
3. Where are all these old cars stored? Does MTA maintain them?
For the most part any of these cars are stored at random yards throughout the city. And the MTA does maintain them.
4. How much does it cost to operate a fan trip and go on a fan trip? (I'm sure MTA needs to help plan it out and whatnought by diverting timetables?)
If it's just an independent trip then you only pay for carfare, but if it's a MTA trip then the price is $35 a ticket for adults. And all of the historic ones are on the weekends.
5. When a train pulls into a station, what prevents regular passengers from boarding by accident (i.e. They don't know or care its a fan trip, they just wanna get home). ID badges I think are used correct?
Nothing. They check your tickets before the train leaves. Plus the trains usually use the tracks that are unused.
Some of the other guys may know more stuff about this.
Smile.
Mostly the train does not make regular stops. When it does, maybe only one door is opened. On last years trip, some guy asked me (toward the end of the rip) if anybody could ride this train. No, the Tickets are $40.00 each, and to tell you the truth I'm not sure where the next stop will be anyway.
It depends on who is organizing a fan trip. The recent March of Dimes trips was orginized by C Division. But ANYBODY can charter the train if they want to. (Presuming they have enough money!)
C Division trips are 35-40$/person x about 400 people? = $14,000 about what I'd expect a subway charter to run for, unless you just wanter to charter a car at the end of a regular service train, then figure about $2-4000.
Sometimes another organiation such as the ERA or someone will run a charter. I was on an ERA rail grinder trip back in the 70s. it did not make any stops, but it was fun to ride through the stations watching the geese on the platforms.... Buy Bue....
Elias
On the MOD trips, I waved to the geese at every station. It was great! Some people would just stare, some would wave back, some would laugh, some would look confused, and some would give me the middle finger. But I loved turning things around and making them the show, not us. It was like I was telling them, "I know what's going on and what we're doing is normal. The fact that you have no clue is the only abnormal thing going on!"
Some people would just stare
some would wave back
We got that, but my photos of that didn't come out.
some would laugh
A lot of that too. Especially at West 4th Street and Broadway-Nassau. Very common, although it is really hard to photograph them from a moving train.
some would look confused
Yeah, that was the most common reaction:
and some would give me the middle finger
You know, that was also very common, especially at the Fulton Street Brooklyn stations. Our train got that many times. I can't count how many times our train got the finger. I guess because within a few seconds of our train entering the station they realized that "this wasn't their train".
Out of curiousity, did you guess this number or do you have something to base it on? I didn't know people/groups were allowed to charter cars on regular revenue trains, but I think it would be cool if it were allowed. Has this ever been done before?
All I had to do for my check that evening was wave my finger at folks from the 10th car noticing that the "extra car" seemed to be full of people having fun and wanted "in" ... needless to say, the storm doors were locked as well. Didn't have to do a damned thing but stand there for the entire trip out to Coney Island and back after the festivities there, prepared to evacuate if necessary and to make sure everyone was covered. Two plainclothes NYCTA cops in the car as well to make sure everyone was safe.
And no, wasn't allowed to party, wasn't allowed to sit down either. Got a few dates out of the deal 'tho. Talk about "gravy trains" ... :)
On a serious note, I think it would be fun to pitch in with a few friends and get one of those cars chartered. Extra nice would be if it were older stock; arnine would be asking too much probably (since they're going to slumber in the museum), so I'd settle for a redbird.
Folks who fail to learn from HISTORY are doomed to repeat it. And those who fail to learn from KISSINGER are just morons. But, ignore the political lesson as to what "LIBERAL" really is ... "LINDSAY", mayor of NYC ... LIBERAL, REPUBLICAN. Ever wonder why it's such a big deal?
I'm AMAZED though that "club car" is STILL available even if it's a C Division pick ... them zany republicans, what can I say? Democraps once used to have balls. After all, if republicans eat their young, and "liberals" WERE republicans, oh never mind ... STEP LIVELY, watch the closing doors, DAMMIT. :(
For those who don't wish to wait for it to load, basically midnight-5AM Tues-Fri, F trains run express 4th ave to Jay. I'm not sure but I think the last one of these was a midday one before the Manny-B flip, since increased headways were required through the area some Fs were sent via West End and Manny B.
I'd like to be on the first train over some of the most disused but still usable trackage in the system, but that 4th ave station creeps me out even in the daytime. I'd wait at another station or in the off-hour waiting area but I'd have to hear the announcement on the train on whether or not it'd be going that way.
I'd also like to railfan video it but the late hour, frequency of service (/ odds of an R-32), and the fact that I've no one to accompany me pretty much kill that idea...
Something to admire even in that setting. Rainy, or foggy nights on those high elevated platforms, the cityscape blinking...I must be nuts. I like it.
I wouldn't say that the 4 Av station is creepy, its kind of dark but not creepy. Now the passageway to the 4 Av line is a little creepy, dark & dingy in fact its a whole BUNCH of steps, a real workout.
I had missed the 2307 G out of continental, probably the last to go normal. I take the next G, the 2322, and after passing up an F connection at Roosevelt I notice this is not a G, but rather a _ to BEDFORD/NOST, and that may not have been a good idea.
Upon arrival at Greenpoint, we wait for 10 minutes "due to track work". Turns out, SINGLE TRACK (northbound only) from Nassau to Bedford-Nostrand, so the entire rest of this trip is wrong-rail. Personnel hand our T/O the Golden Paddle at Nassau, and it turns out we're the first train to do this tonight.
All the stations had noone on the southbound platform except for one VERY PISSED guy with a bike at the south end of Myrtle-Willoughby (crossunder with narrow steps is at north end).
Bedford-Nostrand, we arrive on center track, and from the layout this GO was doing I determined that only ONE TRAIN was to be south of Greenpoint at any given moment. Strike the G for return trip.
Shuttle to Hoyt, crossover, A to Jay, crossover, R-32 F to 4th ave. I see a N/B F on the local track leaving Carroll, and pax and many track workers were on the platform at Bergen, so I realized that the GO hadn't started yet. Arrive in 4th ave 12:40AM (if the G was running 100% normal the arrival at smith-9th would have been 12:06), cross under, wait by the front with half a dozen track workers staring at the switch (in the pouring rain). I note the "DO NOT STOP AT LOWER LEVEL BERGEN ST STATION" sign attached to the 10-car marker.
0026 (I think) F Ave X arrives, R46 6112 head car. After 5 minutes, finally get Y/Y and we're off! Probably didn't go any faster than 10MPH over the whole stretch, and the faces of the people at Smith-9th platform were of both amazement and annoyance, and no one was making any effort to herd them to the other platform.
Lower Bergen itself was a sight, the crossover switch was better lit (huge floodlights) than the actual station, it seemed even darker than it was 2 years ago, and now there's a giant metal booth in the middle of the N/B plat. Still no tile. Express run clocked in at 10 minutes and five seconds, from wheels turning at 4th to doors opening at Jay.
Trip back was eventful as well (stayed on train to Continental), lots of stations being hosed down, passed a 4-Car R-42 set signed as (L) at B'way-Lafayette, passed a work train with both an R-15 and R-21(22?) rider cars at W4th, and got cut off by an OOS G on the Express at 36st.
So, now a few questions...
1. What's the procedure when platforms get closed and passengers just missed the last train to use them? Is anyone supposed to help these folk to the correct platform (outside fare control if necessary) or do they just stand there until 5AM monday morning or take initiative?
2. Do they hose down station platforms every night or was I just lucky? Does it ever happen that a homeless person gets a free shower?
3. Not really a question, but the wrong-rail stop markers make no sense. The OPTO-S is in the middle with the 4-car, but the 6/8/10 are all at the end of the platform. Since 75' cars mean add 2 to their train lengths, it comes out to where the train stops depends entirely on how many the crew is, and not even the avid G customer should be expected to know that!
1) I hope they help them of they read the posters
2) dunno
3) aren't the stop markers for the T/O, not the passengers?
What I mean is the train stops at a different spot on the platform based solely on the number of crew members aboard, how are passengers supposed to know where to wait on the platform?
Why did they take the tile down in the first place. Lower Bergen did have tile. You can see it clearly in the movie, "Jacob's Ladder".
Also, I was under the impression that they couldn't use the tracks on the lower level until they fix the fire damage. What exactly was damaged in the fire in the late 90's?
They have been doing much work on the track down there, and most of the time have that length of track blocked off with a big 6"x6" laid on the rails at either end.
The tile removal at Bergen had something to do with water damage.
Maybe someone else can fill in the details, this is all I know.
It's not listed under the F advisories, but this G advisory implies that it's running all Sunday morning (midnight to noon) as well.
Sorry I could not make it,
Flushing7
Well, as I mentioned on previous occasions, delays are fairly common on that line. Be thankful that the delay wasn't on the outbound ride, otherwise as soon as you arrived at PJ, it would've been time to head back...
There was a 50-50 chance I would ended up taking your train this week. Glad I decided to stay over an extra day, and come back tonight, instead :-)
Glad to hear it was a good one!
R42'S!!!
PS: One R40M set was on the (M) as well
Part of it is the growing number of off-topic posts. Yes, politics have something to do with transit, but the birthday of the Republican Party doesn't have anything to do with Subtalk, nor do these Democrat vs. Republican arguments that some old-timers (and young ones too) get involved with.
But at least these off-topic posts have some coherence and intelligence. Many on-topic posts are incoherent ramblings! Some are simply impossible to comprehend. Simple things like sentence structure are ignored completely. The term "incoherent rant" has come to symbolize this website entirely.
And then there are these ridiculous postings that people are making up. I'm not citing any specific post, but there have been a number of posts recently that are about things that are totally false (nobody take offense here).
It seems that we're loosing things to talk about here on Subtalk. Especially with the loss of a number of posters who post things that are logical and factual. People who are in the know are leaving the board, and those who don't are either posting less frequently (possibly they feel the quality of posts has declined) or simply keeping mum on things they know about. What's even worse is that some people are getting ignored outright.
So, I've come to the conclusion that people are simply posting about things they have no idea about. Or, they are re-hashing past topics or posting about today's scintillating railfan trip. While the latter 2 are certainly welcome topics in my book (who the hell is J trainloco that we care about 'his book'?) so many of them becomes boring. How many times can you railfan the same system.
So I decided to think about what I could do to try to bring the quality of posts up here at subtalk. Well, first, I thought that posting my opinion might help. Maybe people would start to think before they posted. But then I came to an obvious conclusion: Stop posting. I realized, I have very little to add to many discussions here on Subtalk, since I only have knowledge to some MOW aspects of the system (and even fewer up to date aspects), and this seems to be a topic of little interest here. Thus, If I restricted myself to reading posts only, I could cut down on the number of posts that I thought were of 'poor quality'.
While this will be my last post, at least for a while, please leave feedback to this post, or at least e-mail me. I'd like to know what others think about the Quality of Subtalk posts, or if it's just me.
Of course, an entire board shutdown or at the very least, a temporary post limit for everyone will increase the quality dramatically. Such an episode should not be announced.
When you try to have a SERIOUS discussion, it starts off good then turns to flames and the employees who post here in particular is losing interest and basically just go away for long periods of time or don't return altogether. So it seems that people decide to move on and join other boards or whatever and what could we do about it? Well I said what I have to say. Y'all don't like it too tough, you could bitch & moan and all the complaining you want its the reality right now and I'm getting back to transit issues.
I wish you well during your Subtalk "time-out."
I think you're just experiencing that eventually many of us run out of interesting things to discuss on SubTalk. I don't think the quality of the posts is very different than it has been in the past -- though many of the names are new (and many of the old names are gone). What happens is that as you run out of things that are interesting to you, you read the other posts and find that they're not very interesting to you (they were always there, you just don't notice them when you have interesting things to discuss) -- then you decide that SubTalk as a whole is boring.
SubTalk for me has been a great place to learn about and discuss service changes or proposals, new capital projects or new trains -- but these things don't happen every day. You can discuss them 2 or 3 times -- maybe even once in a blue moon change your own opinion -- but eventually it's best to maintain ones sanity by agreeing to disagree.
I find myself posting much less frequently. I believe that it's a combination of not much change in the system recently and that I can often almost predict the responses that individual posters will have for what I write.
SubTalk is what it is, and is still what it always has been. Some of the best and worst posters have come and gone -- but there are new good and bad posters. It is a very select few, though, that have the passion, insight and knowledge to contribute on a frequent basis for years and years. Maybe you're just not one of them -- I know I'm not.
CG
Sometimes I post off-topic or reply to an off-topic post; but I try to limit myself in those situations. I reply to posts when I feel there is something to say, but lately there has been less of that for me personally. Perhaps quality of posts have gone down in some ways with flames and political rants, but I still think a lot of good transit-related stuff is posted for the most part.
Just my two cents. :-) -Nick
It is rather telling that you state that someone forthrightly stating an honestly held opinion causes flamage. Usually flamage starts when someone feels inadequate to post a logical argument in opposition to something that has been posted with which he disagrees, and therefor resorts to juvenile name calling and personal ridicule, which is then returned in kind.
Tom
Ok, IMO, by you just saying that, you are admitting that you are not a real railfan.
No, J trainloco's a railfan alright.
It's just that after a while, IMO, the same thing over and over again becomes monotonous after a while. Even before I started operating, I had seen every station, been on every line, etc. You name it, I've been there....and so have most of you. But personally, I don't wish to see Dyre Avenue and other similar areas multiple times when there are so many different things to see elsewhere. I've branched out to attempt to railfan other subway systems in the world, does that make me a phoney railfan because I won't railfan New York's system anymore?
And a message to J trainloco: Don't get your shorts in a bunch worrying about the "quality" of the posts here. You're just going to have to weed out the smart posts from the ones originated by the ones with the IQ of a twinkie. 'Tis like that on every message board.....unless mensa's got a board. Then you'd probably be looking forward to occasional stupidity.
Absolutely nothing,--- unless you can always identify them as high school kids from their posts.
Tom
Or maybe it's because the board is overrun with BIGOTS like you and smarter members are going elsewhere?
Kick up the margaritas!
But staying on topic, they're safety fenders, not COW WHAT-YAW-CALLS-IT. >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
And here also, I may be a bit off topic, since the PE operated
interurban cars also. So let's just say Surface Cars, that are
electrically powered by a "trolley" or "conduit roller". >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
Many people here think that NYCT is the only subway worth talking about. Many haven't ridden anything else but NYCT. Everyone should be assigned to ride a subway that isn't in NYC and then talk about your experiences. It would open the eyes of many people and would make for interesting discussions. There are hundreds of subways in the world, pick one and ride it.
It isn't necessary to ride every system. In fact, it isn't problematic if we continue talking NYCT. IMO, NYCT is full of endless topics, but some people aren't smart enough to find those topics and continue to be redundant, like with the Redbirds. Of course, I don't think talking about other systems is a bad thing and is always welcome here.
If anything, some posters on here have a tendency to go off-topic and that simply must stop. There are other boards with the World Wide Web to talk about that so go there. I've also noticed Mr. Pirmann hasn't popped in for these threads either, implying that he doesn't care anymore or he has given up. Of course, I don't believe any of that, but some might be inclined to do so. I've always thought that the concept of moderators would be welcome here, but it may be hard to implement, given the structure of the board software David P. uses. Well, if that ever comes to light, I would be all for it. Maybe even the elimination of the 50-post limit, since moderators could delete threads on the fly.
Another problen I find is crying out about problems and other petty issues. I remember someone (maybe it was I) who coined the term, 'SoapTalk.' That seems to be quite the case these days. I see a big barrage of off-topic threads which often turn to nothing more but unnessary flames and smut. These threads would be easily dealt with moderation or just common sense, which seems some posters do not have. Trying to analyze the roote of these problems, it usually starts when some idiot posts something offensive. The best solution is just to ignore it and let him/her be. Often, I see flame wars and unnessary brooding since people simply have to reply, whether it be out of anger or revenge. Just one good tip, let it go. It's best just to ignore it and move on. No need to waste your limit on a post which is a waste of bandwidth in the first place.
Finally, I notice that people often mistake or misunderstand posts as being offensive or mean. Take time to read posts and embrace what others have to say. Be productive in an environment such as this and surely Subtalk will rise from all these ridiculous and time-wasting threads. BTW, enough with the stupid 'Mystical Chix, Sea Beach, 76 Street and other issues'. They have been done to death and it seems replies are made ONLY with those issues in mind. Nothing more but a waste....as long as you use them sparingly as a ending quip with a meaningful post before it. :)
No one listens to what I say anyway. If you guys did, we wouldn't need "state of Subtalk" threads.
-Dave
While I generally don't like off-topic stuff, the Mystical Chix threads are pretty cool. They've become sort of a SubTalk tradition, sorta like threads about fast-food joints, not quite on-topic but nonetheless acceptable.
Besides, being a contrarian sort myself, I enjoy the Mystical Chix threads because of my unusual attitude toward those chix (namely, they don't float my boat).
GOD BLESS the yellow/yellows *IF* they don't HURT anyone ... sometimes, a transit related comment may spawn non-related parallel thoughts, but as someone MYSELF who has no money to contribute (if I did, I would PAY Dave as well as cut a check to Branford) ... all I have to contribute since last I knew, the RR went to Astoria and the CC went to Hudson Terminal - A trains did the Far Rock and Lefferts (some died at Euclid to become HH's) and the EE went down Broadway as a PROUD IND invasion.
So all I knew is meaningless today, even my OPERATING experiences. While I love the subways and all after 30 years away, I'd HATE to think that our environment of folks getting ALONG with one another and busting chops couldn't go off on tangents now and then.
And for the overly sensitive and angry, MY guess is that you're taking in subtalk in the "DEFAULT" flavor rather than playing with your settings, and doing a THREAD display by topic, or perhaps when you see new posts and you say WTF, you can click on "FIRST message in thread" ... if there's gasbags you detest, you can look through each of the subthreads and say "if Selkirk was in this thread, it went STRAIGHT to hell" ... I'd enjoy that, because those who don't care for me don't have a sense of humor ANYWAY and therefore, you can avoid me all together right there. :)
Then there's the killfile. After folks that *I* consider "gasbags" put ME in their "killfile", my own humor IMPROVED, because in the greater scheme of modern Orwellian living, THOSE people are "non-persons" ...
I can't FATHOM why we cheese off Unca Dave so much - Senor Pirrman has given us EVERYTHING!!! A veritable GARDEN of EDEN! All we need to do to rid ourselves of the irritating is to "nucularate them." SO simple, yet we whine. The most ANNOYING people disappear like Muslims! :(
Dave, you da man. You come closer to giving everyone what they want and hurting no one than Tony Blair. I DIDN'T almost get foreclosed -- where do I send the check?
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid67/p80564a22ea795e37b17ffb47e70ab65e/fbc6ee3e.jpg.orig.jpg
Heh heh, actually, my lack of interest in Mystical Chix isn't a conscious decision or anything, it's just not there ... hey, maybe I could claim this is a disability, caused by faulty brain chemistry or something, and qualify for a reduced-fare MetroCard!
Of course, I doesn't bother me that most of the discussion is about New York, since that was the original purpose of the board, and a majority of subtalkers live in New York. But I do hope that as many of our New York subtalkers do get the opportunity to explore the realms beyond the five broughs as possible...I know those who do it very much, based on the posts I read.
Mark
We have far too many posters who seem to feel that they are G-d's gift to railfandom and insist on parading their real ignorance of the topics at hand for all to see. Somewhere along the line, back about the time I was learning to talk, it was impressed on me that I should only use that ability when I had something worthwhile to say, be it a worthwhile statement or a well thought out question. That's one of the reasons you won't see me spouting off saying "the MTA should do this or that" ... I don't have enough knowledge to make an informed contribution to most of these discussions (not that that stops other equally ignorant posters from carrying on at length about the MTA's service patterns, choice of equipment, or whatever). Maybe if some of these folks would sit back and look at what they've posted, and then trash it and ask a well-considered question instead, this board could again become the basis for much knowledge sharing by those who have it. Carefully considered debate about the merits of various ideas is good - I'm not condemning such discussions at all (indeed, I particularly enjoy the banter between Stephen Baumann and others [although even that has been known to deteriorate into overreaching accusations of intellectual dishonesty] regardless of whether I agree with what is being said, because it stimulates my thinking) - but please everybody, think before you post. Otherwise this board will wither away to nothing because we will all tire of finding fewer and fewer pearls amongst an ocean full of sand.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
---Chapter 11
Don't I wish! Most of it's been off-board, though. Two different people (one anonymously, one who identified themselves) took me strongly to task for a post I made a couple of weeks ago; let's just say that I'm glad neither email was a post on the board, as I suspect others would have responded with counter-flames and it could have gotten very nasty. That same post also generated a lengthy, positive email exchange between myself and another SubTalker, which was also probably better not being on the board as it only peripherally concerned rail transit. Wasn't it Fred Rogers who said "it's nice to be nice"? Whoever said it, I agree.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm pretty sure Mr. Rogers said it. That smart man speaks the truth. He is a railfan. :D
No, that's not what I meant... I wish I didn't get flamed... it just doesn't happen openly on the board that often, most of it is in email. But since I don't intentionally flame others I probably attract a lot less of it than some folks do, and that's good... the less flamage the better.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon_e_mouse is truly one swine fellow.
Ah, but I'm a mouse of... how shall we put this... "overly ample proportions". There... I think I managed to avoid flaming myself :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
1 for _mouse
Although if you look around sites devoted to Japanese anime, Godzilla, and some WB network shows you'll find my younger son, Anon_e_mouse Jr., who has posted here once or twice as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've kinda enjoyed the debates I've had. Just to name a few yourself, Q Brightliner, David Greenberger, the other David, Barry, Chris R27-30, Kool-D, Flatbush41, ExpressM and others all had interesting and good arguments. Even if we didn't always agree, what I liked about most of the Subtalkers (particularly the ones I listed) is that for the most part it was kept classy. It didn't get personal. I could say "your analogy is flawed" but then explain it isn't a personal attack so posters won't take it to the next level.
I think SubTalk will be okay as long as posters don't get into name-calling and are nicer to other posters...and when it gets brutally cold again. As long as posters remember to agree to disagree everything should be cool.
#3 West End Jeff
Mark
Mark
So true. When I lived in the L. A. area, I made a total of 10 visits to the SF Bay Area between 1988 and 1997, and I never really covered everything, though I came close. And transit aside, San Francisco is one huge postcard, every visit I discovered a new scenic area :)
This leaves a vaccum and in it's absence are posts by wanna bees and or know-it-alls who -- in reality -- don't know jack about the workings of NYCT.
Just my two cents.
Now what the hell is that!?Sure I'll skip spaces,like I just did,but only for the hell of it.I mean,cmon!I've read 20-30 straight lines of text before with no problem's at all so what the hell!?You gotta be big time blind not to see anything!Can't come to me saying that it's unreadable cause that's flat out BS!BS!You hear me!?BS!Who the heck cares if you don't follow proper english guidelines.Like anyone does these days anyway!
Like I said already,this isn't an english class.It's not like I'm gonna get an "F" for not skipping spaces.It's ridiculous!I'll say it again!If anyone wants to write 20 lines worth of words without skipping spaces then it's ok to do so.No one here is some english teacher or whatever.
IN MY OPINION:
YOU NEED TO LIGHTEN' UP!
Jimmy
Sorry we did not get a chance to talk more but I had to get out to study the station. Since you mentioned SubTalk, I thought I would aplogize here.
Hope you enjoyed the round trip.
Right. 501 is a replica of the 41' suburban cars built by St Louis in 1909. 1058 was originally built as Los Angeles Pacific 713, a 1907 St Louis 49' interurban. It was renumbered 963 when Pacific Electric was formed in 1911. In 1963, it was rebuilt into a diesel bus and numbered 1058.
WHAT ! Did you say rebuilt into a diesel bus ? Please explain this, also where was #1058 all these years ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Car 1058 was rebuilt into a bus by Richard Fellows, who bought the body from (if I remember correctly) the scrapyard on Terminal Island. He put two-axle dollies under each end in the approximate location of the original trucks, one of them steerable. He rebuilt the car as a "Ten", replacing the original curved, two-window ends with flat four-window ends (I have to say, the thing really did look pretty good). The original PE "Tens" only went as high as car 1057, hence this was the first car lettered 1058. Fellows died around 1996 and eventually it was decided to convert it back to an electric car. I guess they decided it would be too much work to try and put the original ends back on the car, and they just left it with its Fellows number.
Frank Hicks
From what I've read, the original ends were destroyed, one by fire, one by a bulldozer.
Also, 1058 was the car in Who Framed Roger Rabbit?
Mark
It was rebuilt into a rubber tired bus ? Wouldn't the body be too heavy ? Also, where did they find the missing running gear, trucks etc. ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I guess it wasn't too heavy. It would have been sitting on at least eight tires, possibly twelve, and all of the original underbody equipment would have been gone which would reduce the weight of the body to (just a guess) around 40-50,000 lbs.
Which brings me to your second question, which I'm wondering myself about the answer to. I notice in one of Salaam's photos that the car now has curved-equalizer trucks, which I would assume are 6'6" wheelbase Baldwin knockoffs from Japan - but that's just a guess. And where did the electrical equipment come from? Is that more mining company stuff? Anyone, anyone?
Frank Hicks
Yes; they fit in the replica category. Car 501 is already on the list, however the second car (500? 502?) wasn't complete last I heard so it isn't on yet. Car 501 has the distinction of being the first car in the "replica interurban" category.
Frank Hicks
In 2002 the L.A Harbor Board (the actual operator) needed a third truck (as a spare). They did not want to deal with Seashore again, so they were advised to contact The
Waiting... :)
Paul Matus brought the matter up, but I believe Dave has not fixed it yet.
This appears to be the exact same HTML error that Kool-D made in post # 532385 when he tried to put a link in his post. Are you using some sort of HTML writing program or are we seeing a strange Sub Talk bug?
Tom
Paul Matus brought the subject up, and Dave's aware of it.
I don't use a coding program, just the accepted HTML tags.
I have a NTML tutorial program that is very good. Drop me an e-mail if you want a copy.
To add to this, the "A" that I was riding on were R32s.
What's going on. Are they phasing out R32s on the "C" during the weekends? If so, why?
Thanks.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
I said that I SAW only 2 R32s and the other 7 were R38s-meaning that I mostly SAW R38s on the "C".
I said nothing about the TA only operated 9 trains. In fact I don't know how many trains they ever operate.
The main idea of my original post was that I OBSERVED mostly R38s operating on the "C" today. Nothing more, nothing less.
The trip began for me arriving at 9:10 at the Hamelton NJT NEC station. This was a little early so I skipped the 10:19 local and caught the 10:42 express. The metal cover into the cab of the Arrow III was partly down so I got a railfan view good enough for pictures. We arrived at Newark on time and I transfered to PATH, leaving at 10:45
My train was hot and fast accross the meadows, and while most people got off at JSQ, I stayed on to ride PATH's Sceret Service...the NWK-EXP-HOB round robin. Well my train pulled out first, went to EXP, layed over the 2-3 min then revered out to Hoboken. It worked like a charm and I found myself at Hoboken at 11:20...nearly 40 minutes early for the trip. Well, I first discovered that all the food court type places were closed on the weekend so I had to settle for a hot dog from a seedy bar type place. Next, I walked out on platform 7/8 to take pics of the Terminal Tower and the trainshed. I walked back and began to circle aimlessly waiting for others to arrive. As time went on I began to fear that nobody was going to show up and I became more desperate for something to go. I explored the waiting room and took pictures there. I took pictures of the trains at the stub post and even validated my train tickets in the HLBR machine.
Still, there were a number of odd people gathering on the platform...I didn't quiet know who they were, but they looked to be railfans. I glanced at them and they glanced at me, but nothing happened until Pigs showed up at which point a greeted him and like 3 or 4 other Subtalkers at that point spoke up. This is exactly why I say we need to devolop a Subtalk Sceret Signal for covert identification.
Anyway, all told the group consisted of American Pig, Jersey Mike faxman, kinki sharyo, Piggo and an older SubTalker whose handle escapes me (sorry, I am truely awful with names). At that point we bought tickets and headed out on platform 9/10 to take more pics of terminal tower.
When we got back it was time to get on our train waiting on track 4. It consisted of NJT 4201 at the head, 3 Comet I coaches and an MNRR Comet I-A cab car. The cab car had a fresh coat of black paint applied to the inner door window, thus blocking the rainfan view. However, there was a small hole in the paint and acting on my own initiative I pulled out a quarter and yaddie yaddie yadda we had a squash ball sized viewing and photo peephole!
We pulled out on time and I had my first trip through the newly refurbished north tunnel. It was way too bright inside, all freshly lined and whatnot. they totally did away with the dank, which really ruined its ambiance as a tunnel. It also had an exposed, roof suspended jet engine style ventilation system.
We pulled onto the Main Line at WEST END. We went through the about to be opened Secaucas Connection, the line is now 4 tracks with concrete ties and looks ready for the Aug 5th opening. We saw the new Bergen connector and the UPPER HACK draw. The Mail Line b/t there and Patterson has seen extensive concrete tieing and also been upgraded to Rule 261 running. Furthermore, the old Passerson connector track (connecting the old DL&W Boonton Line w/ the old Erie Main Line) was been double tracked. Still, even with the concrete ties speeds were between 40 and 60.
We Ridgewood Junction I saw that the venerable RJ tower was still standing and looking better than even. It had the big interlocking nameplate on it and looked like an MoW lounge/relay room. Also still maintaining verticallity was the venerable and extremely "rustic" WC tower at Waldwick.
We got past Sufferen only to find that yes, the pole line signaling had been replaced and also, there weren't to many patches of jointed rail left, but we still reveled in the rockin and rollin that we could experiance. Our conductor was somewhat absentee from our car and I realized that I could sneak into the rear vestabule for important shots. I especially used this to my advantage at Moonda viaduct where I made use of the slid open side cab window to really record some breathtaking views. I also rude in the back vestabule through the Ottisville tunnel where due to the open windows I got a nice blast of diesel exhaust scented natural air conditioning. The tunnel also provided a facinating sconic effect for those standing in the un-insulated vestabule
The day was bright and sunny with cotton candy clouds in the sky. The region had seen plenty of rail so everything was green and lush. Out on the extremely rural PJ line this made for quantity of scenery that even 100 railfans all armed with digital cameras couldn't capture in its entirely.
We arrived at PJ ontime and after circling the parking lot a few times we ventured into the Burger King that had been the focus of our quest. After emerging we headed over in a large "Charter" to the rehabilitated turntable and old fuel pad and NJT yard to take pics. Alas the old coaling tower has been demolished.
We crossed the tracks to take pics of the PJ station and out train that had pulled east of the platform. We watched the crew attach a second engine, 4108, an original CNJ GP-40P, to the back of our train. They said it needed to be towed back to HOB for maintainence.
Here is where the problems began. We left ontime, but I noticed that our engineer kept having to look back out her window. Long story short is we stopped at Middletown station and this station stop turned into a 90 minute delay. The brakes on 4108 had locked up and wouldn't release. The crew tried valiantly, but their efforts were to no avail (although the female engineer kept getting more and more grubby each time we saw her) and we had to set the engine out at the Red Onion siding. But our troubles were not over. We had to proceed at restricted speed for about 2 miles due to excessive time spent in the block. Then, at Harriman they made us wait in a siding for 15 minutes for a northbound train to pass us. The end result was that we were routed down the Main Line to cover the guarenteed connections and missed out all the to be abandonned stuff on the Bergen. We also came in at night so Photos were out.
One interesting thing was NJT's really close spaces signal blocks. NJT has maintained the old timey 1 mile (approx) block spacing with what appears to be 4 block signaling as well. It is near to see the signal in advance of you light (approch lighting remember) as you pass by another signal.
NJT had some interesting signaling on the line. Yes they are all V target signals, but between RJ (Ridgewood) and SF (Sufferen) used mostly bracked mast signals, each two, two-head displays on them. The line past Sufferen mostly still retained its heritage Erie RR signaling, which was mostly GRS large target SA seatchlights. Some were still on their original Erie lattice bracket masts!
Anywho, we got in to HOB 2 hours late. The crew had told us to get a refuld for the trip, but alas the ticket office and customer care office were both closed. Most of us parted ways at this point, except I rode with Faxman on PATH (round robin service had started, but we were lucky and caught a train to JSQ quickly). I was going back to Hamelton, he Union Station on the RVL, but since we both had time to kill he bought me one of those new Stewarts Peach sodas (wow, it was intense!!) and we chatted in the grand lobby of Newark Penn.
I caught the 10:18 express train. It was an Arrow II train. I have been really miffed because NJT has been limiting its trains to 80 or so on the NEC for some reason, but I spiced up the ride by, before by stop at Hamelton and exercising extreme and prudent caution, sticking my head out one of the Arrow III sliding cab windows that had been left open while we were moving at quasi top speed. Unfortunately it was too dark for pics. My train arrived safely at 11:10 at Hamelton and I caught a ride home.
I will post picsures ASAP.
You missed one other detail: no ties in the tunnel. The rails are mounted in that new fashion: directly attached to the concrete floor, like in the reconstructed path tunnel.
Additionally, on the west end of the tunnels both bridges that span the freight tracks have been rebuilt. Each bridge got rebuilt as part of its tunnel overhaul, as a first order of business. The south bridge rebuilt was completed last week.
Our conductor was somewhat absentee from our car and I realized that I could sneak into the rear vestabule for important shots.
On outbound off-peak trips out of Hoboken everyone gets on at Hoboken, and rarely does anyone else get picked up along the way. There's no reason for the conductors to walk through the cars that much. They just pick a seat to relax, or hang out in the vestibules.
As I noted a few times -- delays for one or another reason are fairly frequent on that line, especially on weekends. There was a 50% chance I would've picked your train to head back to NYC this week; it's a good thing I decided to stay over an extra day.
One interesting thing was NJT's really close spaces signal blocks. NJT has maintained the old timey 1 mile (approx) block spacing with what appears to be 4 block signaling as well. It is near to see the signal in advance of you light (approch lighting remember) as you pass by another signal.
The most extreme instance of that is Suffern, with approach-lit signals near both ends of station, about a quarter mile away from each other.
Sounds like you had a great time. Sorry I missed it. Had gone fishing. But check out my post from Saturday: "Arrow III? Gone Fishing!"
Plenty of Metro-North and Amtrak details as well as the "catch of the day".
By the way, Arrow II happens to be retired. I assume you mean "Arrow III".
wink, wink ;)
Jimmy
But recently, I've noticed that a glitch exists with the "R Bay Ridge/95 St" code 12 setting. With many trains now, if you use code 12 (with cars with reprogrammed signs...which is almost all), it will copmpletely freeze up the signs trainline, or as least as far as the signal goes through the train. So if you originally had signs reading "R Forest Hills...71 Av...Broadway Lcl...via 60 St" throughout the train, and you change directions and use code 12 for the route, the first car may read the new code 12 sign but the other cars' signs will freeze with exactly what it was showing at the time the new code was entered.
On a related note, I have also seen the R46 signs display "SHUTTLE" on one side and "BAY RIDGE/95 ST" on the other. Why do "BAY RIDGE" and "95 ST" take up two separate readings on the signs when there is enough space to fit both on one line?
I doubt it... they'd have to walk outside the car to see "Bay Ridge/95th Street".
Why do "BAY RIDGE" and "95 ST" take up two separate readings on the signs when there is enough space to fit both on one line?
The one I was on last night had them both on the same line...it was a tight fit (no extra spaces on either side).
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/20/nyregion/20seco.html
www.forgotten-ny.com
David
The Times had to really dig to come up with some whiners. Let's see who sues.
The claim of 15 years of construction is also total nonsense. That's for the whole line, not in any given neighborhood.
I think the NIMBYs will be few and far between relative to any other project ever proposed.
Have Peter Rosa ship them some adult diapers and sopme pacifiers (Binky brand).
Unfortunately, our legal system being what it is, a few idiots can delay projects significantly.
As for the compaints in the Seaport area, after years of hearing that the line would be tunneled, they are now being told it has to be cut-and-cover around Fulton Street to clear the Cranberry Street tunnel. They could lose the playground for several years, but see it expanded to the western branch of Pearl Street when all is done (the part of Pearl that leads into southern part of Pearl, not the part that goes into Water Street).
It is definitely an environmental impact on the residents. It should be addressed. It shouldn't affect SAS, just details of construction, if at all.
What is wrong is when impacts are given too much weight, usually when the complainers have too much political power, or too little, when they have too little.
To raise a point I've made before, there'd be less opposition if public works projects in New York didn't take forever to be completed. New York has a disgraceful record when it comes to project completion, and people know that.
If something on the scale of the Big Dig ever were attempted in New York ... I shudder at the thought.
Peace,
ANDEE
Shifting gears slightly, this is one of the reasons I think it's important for there to be some form of rent control in NYC.
Like it or not, most residences in Manhattan are rentals. Rent control makes it possible for Manhattan residents to seriously consider staying in Manhattan -- otherwise, Manhattan may be fine temporarily, but it's simply too costly to live in permanently.
A temporary resident has no reason to favor the SAS and has every reason to oppose it. A temporary resident will have to live through the disruption but will be long gone by the time it opens.
A permanent resident can weigh the short-term inconveniences against the long-term benefits. I can't guarantee that all of them would see the SAS as a worthwhile tradeoff, but many would. (One catch: this permanent resident would have to be convinced that the inconvenience would actually lead to a finished, working product. NYCT's track record is hardly perfect here, although it's been gradually improving.)
A resident who isn't even here until the next Election Day has no reason to care about the SAS one way or the other, since the disruption won't begin until well past Election Day.
The concern is with the residents who are sticking around another few years before leaving. Many of them vote.
False and naive statement. Business leaders don't hesitate to communicate to employees about how important it is to vote for things that affect their continued employment. Business associations and trade groups do all kinds of things to get people to vote one way or another.
You've made a good point. I would say, however, that Manhattan renters are likely to be somewhat transitory - and therefore more likely to oppose the SAS - even with rent control, simply because home ownership is an investment rather than just an expenditure and provides major tax benefits thanks to the mortgage interest deduction.
There are people who want to live in Manhattan. They don't want to live in an investment -- they want to live in Manhattan. An investment will get them a very different lifestyle, one which is very difficult to find outside Manhattan.
And as long as those people are protected against punitive rent hikes, many of them will live in Manhattan.
But you raise another point.
You mention major tax benefits in home ownership. Who do you think pays for those major tax benefits? Renters. So why shouldn't renters get similar benefits? Of course, that's not what rent control is today -- but perhaps that's what rent control should be. Renters subsidize homeowners' taxes; in return, homeowners subsidize long-term renters' rents. Sounds fair to me.
Temporarily, for a couple of years, a little worse before the decking of the cut and cover project is laid down. It will require a little adjusting by people - but we know what first class crybabies New Yorkers are :0)
What was that sound? Oh, nothing much -- just every permanent Manhattan resident fleeing for the suburbs.
So much for any hope for the SAS.
Even then markets are nothing more than a useful tool for distribution. The thing is that we might not like the final outcome. If I end up having everything and everyone else nothing is that really fair? The problem is that markets do not concern themselves with fairness-only those who regulate them do. Of course some regulation is self-defeating but it is plainly wrong to say we would better off without any which is precisely what a free market demands (some weaker forms tolerate regulations very narrowly drawn against use of force and outright fraud but these are very narrow-for example many of these same theories would tolerate slavery).
Markets have their uses and that cannot be denied but we would be wrong to let "the invisible hand" determine everything. Should we outlaw prostitution? Should we regulate it? The selling of boday parts? Selling babies? If there is a market for child labor should we allow it? Should ingredients in food be disclosed? etc.
Ultimately saying you want the market to distribute things (unequally because there is a greatly unequal distribution of ability to pay in the first place) is not stating a rule of fairness-its accepting the results of a tricked up roulette wheel. With that in mind we can discuss what rent controls are reasonable and not-not saying let the market handle it.
Who said they were? They're the cure for almost everything.
(Why do I rarely hear the opponents of rent control arguing against these other existing intrusions into their claimed free market ideals?)
You'll hear me arguing against those other intrusions.
you seem to determined to keep this horsebleep subject alive.
I'll remember to take that and throw it in your face the next time you mention the worthless Sea Beach line again.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Either that or I hit my posting limit for the day.
(Hmmm...going for two days straight?)
Where do you get optimism? I only feel that it's worthy of discussion. Sea Beach usually isn't.
- If they cannot afford to live in Manhattan, they shouldn't. I can't. I don't. Why should someone else?
Are you speaking of short-term residents or long-term residents?
Because long-term residency is good for the community. I want to encourage short-term residents to stay and become long-term residents, not to run off to the suburbs after a few years.
Without some form of rent control (not necessarily the form currently in existence), it's difficult to remain in an apartment long-term. After a few years, the landlord can safely assume that the tenant has spent money to make improvements to the apartment and can raise the rent to usurious levels, forcing the tenant to choose between paying the inflated rents or abandoning the improvements. Rent control is protection against this sort of action.
Rent control also rewards tenants who are willing to move into neighborhoods that aren't in the greatest of shape. Just as a pioneer homeowner who helps to boost the livability of his neighborhood isn't chased out as property values go up (at least not directly), so is a pioneer renter who helps to boost the livability of his neighborhood not chased out as property values go up.
Most Manhattan residences are rentals. Like it or not, it's a fact of life.
If they cannot afford to live in Manhattan, they shouldn't. I can't. I don't. Why should someone else?
Peter Rosa gave one reason (without realizing it, to be sure), although it applies more generally to renters vs. homeowners: homeowners are subsidized through tax benefits on mortgages. Any tax benefit is subsidized by those who don't qualify for it. So renters are helping homeowners foot their bill. Why shouldn't homeowners be expected return the favor to renters?
I'll give another reason, one more relevant on a transportation discussion board. Manhattan residents subsidize transportation for the rest of the region. Manhattan residents, on average, take much shorter subway rides than non-Manhattan residents, and they tend to ride in more crowded conditions. They make greater use of the system off-peak, when passengers don't cost much to accomodate, since most don't have cars. Due to the high density, fewer stations accomodate more riders. Yet a short off-peak ride from a busy station costs the rider no less than a long peak ride from a lightly used station. That short off-peak ride may cost only a few cents for NYCT to provide, and the profit is used to subsidize a long peak trip that costs dollars to provide. And moving beyond the subway, you're well aware that subway riders subsidize commuter rail riders.
(Of course, rent control doesn't ask for subsidies from homeowners or non-Manhattanites at all. It's simply a condition of the rental business that all current landlords knew existed before they became landlords. I don't see why they deserve a sudden gift -- on the backs of their tenants.)
Gift? To be told how much you can charge to rent your own property? Herin lies the fundamental difference between you and me. I don't think it's right to tell a person who owns a building that he cannot rent an apartment to anyone who wishes to pay whatever rent he/she feels can be charged. Tenants are customers. If they cannot or if they will not pay what the landlord asks, they can find housing which fits their budget. This way every New Yorker has a fair shot at a reasonable rent. Taking thousands of apartments out of the market artifically and unfairly raises the rents people in uncontrolled buildings must pay.
Mind you, I don't support the abolition of rent control. I support it being phased out, with apartments that become vacant removed from governmental controls. That was the original intent of the law when it was instituted during WWII.
So I guess you must feel the same way about building codes. Why shouldn't the owner of a building with no working heat, with plumbing that leaks into the apartments, with no adequate fire escape route be allowed to rent an apartment to anyone who wishes to pay?
It's a valid opinion, but I don't share it.
Or if you do think building codes are appropriate, then your argument is weak. You can no longer argue that landlords can rent anything at any price they want; you can only argue that certain types of restrictions are inappropriate. You haven't told me why this sort of restriction is inappropriate while others might be appropriate.
In any case, today's landlords bought their properties well aware of rent control. Rent control is no less fair to them than building codes or even income taxes. Perhaps rent control was unfair to the landlords who were around when it was first enacted, but they're dead now. Current landlords knew about rent control before they entered the business.
Mind you, I don't support the abolition of rent control. I support it being phased out, with apartments that become vacant removed from governmental controls. That was the original intent of the law when it was instituted during WWII.
And as current long-term residents die off, Manhattan will become the borough of transients.
Transients don't care about the welfare of the city. They'll vote against anything that causes temporary disruption, like the SAS.
They also don't care about the welfare of their own neighborhoods. As quality of life in those neighborhoods decreases, Manhattan will lose residents, period, as even transients seek to live in greener pastures. That's bad for the rest of the city for two reasons. First, the city's raw population numbers will decrease. Second, the specific residents being lost are the ones who, on average, subsidize everyone else. If nobody's left who pays a full subway fare to commute one mile to work, then the fare will have to go up for everyone who pays that same subway fare to commute ten miles to work.
I don't care what happens to the rent when a tenant moves out. For all I care, the landlord can jack it up as high as he wants. But once a new tenant moves in, he needs some sort of protection.
Perhaps that protection shouldn't come from the landlord. Maybe it should come from other taxpayers, just as homeowners receive tax breaks from their fellow taxpayers. Mind you, I haven't formulated a specific arrangement -- I'm just thinking out loud.
No. It'll become an island of affluent tenants until market forces adjust. Few poor tenants benefit from rent control. In fact, they're the biggest victims.
The point is not to keep prices artificially low. The point is to prevent landlords from gouging. Without rent control in some form, long-term tenants are vulnerable.
Even the most affluent of long-term tenants won't be willing to put up with that sort of risk. If they can find a condo or co-op to their liking, great. Otherwise, they're off to the suburbs. (Now you get to subsidize a commute they didn't even want to begin with.)
Do all of these short-term tenants you always mention exist now or will they somehow magically be created if rent control is abolished? Where do they live now?
Perhaps because they want to get a taste of the city before moving on to the suburbs.
Perhaps because they're looking to get married, and the city is the best place to find the sort of mate they're looking for.
Perhaps because they're in school or at a short-term job in the city.
My neighborhood's full of them. They move out as soon as they've had enough of the city or as soon as they get married or as soon as they graduate. They're good people and good neighbors, but they don't care what the neighborhood's like in ten years.
Do all of these short-term tenants you always mention exist now or will they somehow magically be created if rent control is abolished? Where do they live now?
They exist. Many of those who can fit and can afford the rents live here. The rest find other neighborhoods and other boroughs to live in.
They'd love it if rent control were abolished, since more of them would be able to fit. But the neighborhood and the city would be worse off, since they have little reason to care about how the neighborhood or the city look in ten years, unlike the long-term residents they've displaced.
Most voters are selfish. No selfish short-term resident is in favor of the SAS. The SAS will only be built through the votes of long-term residents.
So does that mean that prices would go down, and housing stock would increase if rent regulation was done away with? Wasn't the intent of rent control to keep prices down, due to housing shortage?
Word. For instance, if you're looking for a Mystical Chik, living in Sea Cliff's probably a bad idea.
Ding! "Plonk!!!!!!!"
If subways were a private venture, someone would be willing to pay off people being inconvenienced in order to build something that would eventually make a profit.
That's not how private enterprise works. In unregulated environments, the private enterprise just does what it wants with its property and doesn't care at all about the neighboring property owners and residents. Did Rockefeller ever pay off a neighbor for the unsightly mess his oil well created?
In regulated environments, private enterprise lobbies the regulatory authorities (whether zoning boards or higher level govt agencies) to get the necessary approval. Again, individual neighbors are ignored because they have no power.
A fallacy of the anti-rent control argument is that it benefits only the well to do, like Mia Farrow with her 16 room apartment renting for $800 or whatever.
What will happen to my 3 room apartment in Flushing if all rent controls were removed? Any rise of $100, $200 per month would price me out, and would price out a huge group of middle class renters.
Controls must be maintained.
www.forgotten-ny.com
If that's the case then you DO NOT DESERVE TO LIVE IN FLUSHING. You can live someplace more within your means instead of being subsidized.
On the contrary, if the only place he can afford to live is outside the city, we'll all be subsidizing his commute in.
If transportation was priced fairly, then most likely the city would be the cheaper place to live. It would have more supertall buildings, and more efficient transportation resources (read: no cars).
I deserve MUCH better.
www.forgotten-ny.com
So what? If that's where people can afford to live, that's where they should live.
What do malls have to do with any of this? New York City is likely to remain centralized. Even though new buildings are usually not subject to rent control, they still get built in Manhattan five after the other.
Do you know what it's like to drive around, say, Indianapolis and see real estate fashion after fashion sitting empty? That's what Manhattan and Stamford BOTH will look like in twenty years if the middle class residents all move out of one and the rich and poor move out of the other.
If centralization prevents this, then this argument proves NOTHING as it obviously has nothing to do with centralization and I don't see you giving any other rationale.
You think there's an endless supply of yuppie bond salesmen, advertising dweebs and adventurous au pairs to fill up this precious little island? I want the middle class back.
If not, then prices will go down so that someone else can afford it.
I want the middle class back.
I want the middle class back on Park Avenue, it ain't happening.
Rent control's end might mean that more of these middle class renters will buy condominiums and co-ops, thereby staying in Manhattan and acquiring a greater stake in the area's growth and prosperity. Not to mention the nice tax benefits they'd get.
As for Houston, it may not be a model of sound urban planning - though the upcoming light rail may signify a change in attitudes - but at least the people living there have jobs, which all too many people in New York (and, as far as I can tell, quite a few Subtalkers) do not.
I am VERY interested in the SAS and applicable Nimbys, living as I do in the heart of community opposition to anything that the community doesn't like.
HOWEVER, I do NOT want to read about rent control here. There are plenty of other places I can get informed opinions on the topic.
YOU GUYS ARE SABOTAGING A THREAD THAT I FIND VERY RELEVANT. PLEASE STOP!
And, getting back to my reason for raising rent control in the first place in this thread, temporary residents have no reason to support the SAS and have every reason to oppose it.
Rent control gives the tenant some degree of ownership rights to the improvements that he's bought.
Why, in the absence of rent control, would the apartment be renting for $4,000 when it's only worth half that much?
(I don't know why this is so hard to understand. Just as a homeowner probably has different tastes from the prior homeowner and will probably make modifications shortly after moving in, so do does a renter probably have different tastes from the prior renter and will probably make modifications shortly after moving in.)
Maybe not $4000. Maybe $3000 or $2500. Doesn't matter. If the tenant isn't protected against such price hikes, then the tenant won't be staying long -- and the tenant who plans to stay long will live elsewhere, where he is protected.
But I'm not talking about a new tenant. I'm talking about a tenant who's been around a few years and just spent thousands of dollars remodeling the place to make it suitable for permanent residency. At that point the landlord can very easily get away with overcharging, since the tenant's only other choice is to abandon the thousands of dollars he just spent.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What do you think rent control is? It's simply a contract, mandated by the city in certain circumstances, between the landlord and the tenant that limits the rate of rent increases.
Without rent control or a similar contract, there would be no such thing as a long-term rental, for the very reason you give: anyone seeking to remodel is left with no practical choice but to buy, and options to buy in Manhattan are limited. That leaves Manhattan with few residents willing to make temporary sacrifices for future gains, since they'll gone before they can reap those gains. (AlM, my point is very much transit-related.)
That's all rent control is.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes. Why are owners bad?
So then why are you complaining? Manhattan isn't for you and you found some place that is.
Can't say much about short term fools, but New York would be far better off if there were more homeowners (which includes co-op and condo owners) and fewer renters. Owners have the most stake in an area's growth and therefore are the most likely to support transit projects that promise such growth even at the cost of some short-term inconvenience.
A long-term owner has more of a stake in an area than a long-term renter.
A short-term owner has more of a stake in an area than a short-term renter.
Why?
The owner has to sell his apartment when he is done, I'm sure he doesn't want to lose a lot of money on the investment. A renter need only wait for the lease to expire. Both will have to incur the costs of moving equally.
If I'm planning to live in the same place for 30 years, whether I rent or I own, I'm going to do my best to ensure that my neighborhood has whatever amenities I need to live well -- adequate transportation, low crime, etc.
If I'm only here for 3 years, it doesn't really matter what I think, since my decisions won't yield any results, aside from temporary inconvenience, until I'm long gone. Might as well minimize the inconvenience.
People don't live in Manhattan for the investment. They live in Manhattan for Manhattan.
That applies to both a renter and an owner. An owner also has to sell the property. You still haven't put up any reason why a renter would have more at stake than an owner.
I said that a long-term renter has more at stake than a short-term owner.
Once we bring rent control into the picture, we're not talking about the average renter anymore. Rent control encourages renters to be long-term, and it encourages people looking for long-term residences to seriously consider rentals in the city (as opposed to, e.g., houses in the suburbs). That's good for the city's health.
Are you sure you didn't mix up renter and owner in the first part of the sentence?
Rent control encourages renters to be long-term, and it encourages people looking for long-term residences to seriously consider rentals in the city (as opposed to, e.g., houses in the suburbs). That's good for the city's health.
Renters need not be long term. I have mentioned condos and co-ops and you have chosen to ignore that.
I did. Thank you.
Renters need not be long term. I have mentioned condos and co-ops and you have chosen to ignore that.
I haven't. Condos and co-ops are great for those who can find them. Most Manhattan apartments are rentals. It's difficult to find a suitable apartment even without limiting one's choices to condos and co-ops.
It's unlikely that the number of condos and co-ops will not increase if rent control is eliminated.
I certainly am simplifying.
Whether I'm oversimplifying depends on how deeply you read into my comments.
Rent control is more than just a long-term lease; it is legislative interference with the free market economy.
There are countless examples of legislative interference with the free market economy. Do you argue against all of them or just the ones that happen not to benefit you personally?
We don't have a free market economy at all. We have, at best, a very crude approximation of one.
A tenant who is interested in making improvements might well be able to negotiate a ten or even fifteen year lease (with the concommitant obligation to remain there for that entire duration), whereas rent control relieves the tenant of the obligation to remain for any long fixed amount of time (yearly renewals, perhaps) but yet permits the tenant to remain for a lifetime without paying anything close to market rents the longer they remain. In that latter scenario, the landlord is being unfairly deprived of the potential for higher rental income (not just from those tenants who have made improvements but from any long-term tenant).
The landlord is not being unfairly deprived of anything, because the landlord was aware of rent control before he became a landlord. Rent control is no more unfair than building code. A landlord is also deprived of income by not being permitted to rent an apartment with no heat. Is that unfair?
One could argue that rent control was unfair to the landlords who were landlords when the law was first enacted. Most of them are dead by now. Perhaps we should compensate their heirs. Why would we compensate a group of people who happen to share the same business?
Well, we are off topic at this point, but just to add, what is "Rent Control" was done away with in the 70's. While there are many "rent controlled" appartments still in NYC, most do now fall under "Rent Stabilization", which was enacted in the 70's, so perhaps there are not quite as many "dead" landlords "pre-rent stabilization" than it would appear from "rent control" landlords pre WWII.
Rent control is no more unfair than building code. A landlord is also deprived of income by not being permitted to rent an apartment with no heat. Is that unfair?
That's a bit extreme, I'm afraid. Heat is a necesity to live. Rent Regulations are not. Building codes protect lives and safety, rent regulation does not.
Perhaps we should compensate their heirs. Why would we compensate a group of people who happen to share the same business?
Alright David, we are grasping at straws here with that one.....
AIUI, rent stabilization is a relaxed form of rent control. Landlords in the 70's were not deprived of anything that they had in the 60's.
That's a bit extreme, I'm afraid. Heat is a necesity to live. Rent Regulations are not. Building codes protect lives and safety, rent regulation does not.
Irrelevant. Both rent control and building codes limit what a property owner may do with his property. To those who argue that rent control is wrong because it limits what a property owner may do with his property, then building codes are just as wrong.
Alright David, we are grasping at straws here with that one.....
No I'm not. Government-imposed restrictions are only potentially unfair to those affected when they're first imposed or made more stringent. You think the landlords when rent control was enacted were treated unfairly? Then their heirs are the people to compensate. Rent control isn't unfair to current landlords because rent control has always been a cost of doing business to current landlords.
Relevant. Looking at it from the perspective of a free market, requiring heat in an apartment is a restriction on the market. However it is one that protects the lives of people. Rent control does not.
Actually the building code only requires the heat to be raised to 55°. I guess that's comfortable for an Inuit.
And it's well above the minimum necessary to prevent death.
Here I think you go too far if you define temporary residents as all renters. If the reference is just to those who plan to be out of Mnahattan within the next decade or so then its plausible but not otherwise.
Does anyone know what the turnover rate is along the SAS route espacially the 63rd to 125th Street segment?
I'm saying just the opposite. With rent control, many renters are here for the long haul. Without rent control, renting long-term becomes impractical, so rentals fill up with temporary residents.
Does anyone know what the turnover rate is along the SAS route espacially the 63rd to 125th Street segment?
I don't know. You could probably figure it out by looking through the Census website, but I'm not about to spend the time.
I recently ran into a friend of mine from college who I hadn't seen since we graduated. She's a transportation engineer, working on a subway project. She lives near 2nd Avenue (below 63rd). She's opposed to the SAS because it will bring out the rats.
When I first heard her say this, I was horrified -- but it makes perfect sense, since she'll surely be gone long before it opens, so she doesn't gain anything from having to put up with the rats. (Frankly, I'd be surprised if she's still in the city to see the rats come out.)
Percentage of units where the householder moved in before 1970:
0-3.9%(of the residences in the tract); 4-8.6%; 8.7-13.9%; 14-19.1%; and 19.2-32.4% (i.e., none of the darkest colored tracts had more than 32.4% of their householders move in before 1970).
And percentage of units where householde moved in between 1999 and March 2000: 0-11.3; 11.4-18.2; 18.3-27.1; 27.2-41.2; 41.3-96.7.
If someone will tell me (Dave P?) how to upload a .gif somewhere, I'll do so. Email me not here but at fram@tmail.com.
P.S. This is profoundly on-topic. Wait till you see it.
Before 1970:
1999-2000:
10021 5-Digit ZCTA: 62.4
10028 5-Digit ZCTA: 61.3
Manhattan: 60.1
Brooklyn: 37.8
United States: 16.4
Nassau County: 12.0
(10021 and 10028 are Upper East Side ZIP codes.)
This reinforces what we already know: People leave Manhattan for the suburbs to raise families. The majority of Manhattan's housing stock is incompatible with most people's familial goals, and the assurance of an affordable rental unit hardly puts a dent in the biological urge to procreate.
So there shouldn't be heavy opposition anywhere. The transients on the UES will never even notice the SAS being built; it won't be more disruption than the average new high rise construction (which is already considerable disruption).
Absolutely. But a project should not be held hostage to a few homeowners' ignorance about what does or does not affect home values, and their use of NIMBY as a proxy for racial prejudice. Rant and complain, get legitimate concerns addressed, and then move on with your life.
Yes, sometimes a NIMBY can be an asshole of the first degree.
Close but not quite.
Your paying a few hundred thousand dollars for your house gives you the right to a house, that's all.
Actually living in a neighborhood is what gives you have your voice heard.
Renters have as much a right to vote as homeowners. And a property owner who lives elsewhere has no right to vote wherever he owns property.
It might, but people pay extra to live in the better neighborhood. Why do you think the same house in Manhattan Beach costs far more than one in Coney Island, only a couple of miles away?
When an undesirable project is erected in a neighborhood, the owners of the land where the new facility is situated get bought out, the neighbors get the shaft.
Property ownership should include partial ownership of the surrounding environment. If the city wants to build a homeless shelter in a neighborhood, fine, but they have to "buy" the better neighborhood from the shelter's neighbors instead of stealing it.
For the same reason that a rental apartment in Manhattan Beach costs far more than one in Coney Island.
When an undesirable project is erected in a neighborhood, the owners of the land where the new facility is situated get bought out, the neighbors get the shaft.
Yes, they do -- whether those neighbors own or rent.
Property ownership should include partial ownership of the surrounding environment.
Those protections come with residency, not with property ownership.
Our basic government-citizen interface is at the residency level. One votes where one lives, not where one owns land.
If the city wants to build a homeless shelter in a neighborhood, fine, but they have to "buy" the better neighborhood from the shelter's neighbors instead of stealing it.
A homeless shelter isn't itself a problem -- it's some of the common consequences of opening a homeless shelter that can be problematic. The city should have to ensure that those consequences don't occur, unless the nearby residents waive their rights (perhaps in exchange for cash).
Irrelevant to my point.
Those protections come with residency, not with property ownership.
Even if the owner doesn't live on the property, surrounding environment still affects property values. People aren't going to pay the same high rent if the neighborhood goes downhill.
Our basic government-citizen interface is at the residency level. One votes where one lives, not where one owns land.
The votes of people near an undesirable project are outnumbered by the votes of residents elsewhere who will reap the benefits but won't have to live with its ill effects.
it's some of the common consequences of opening a homeless shelter that can be problematic.
How is that possible? Homeless people are often seedy people that do seedy things.
Doesn't matter. My precise point is that what is guaranteed is not the preservation of an investment but the preservation of a livable neighborhood. If you fear that the neighborhood you live in is going downhill, you can threaten to oust your elected officials. If you fear that an investment two states away is losing value, tough. Investments come with risks, and the government doesn't provide immunity from this one. If you're not prepared to take a risk, don't invest.
The votes of people near an undesirable project are outnumbered by the votes of residents elsewhere who will reap the benefits but won't have to live with its ill effects.
But those residents elsewhere have different elected officials. The job of your elected officials is to please the residents specifically of your neighborhood.
The homeless shelter is going to go somewhere, yet there is a way to keep everyone happy: money.
How is that possible? Homeless people are often seedy people that do seedy things.
In this case you're probably right, but I still insist on my formulation, because yours leads to all sorts of counterproductive zoning requirements. Stores cause crime, they say, so don't put any stores anywhere near my house -- and we thereby feed car dependency, not because the free market prefers car dependency but because the law now mandates it. But what if stores really don't cause crime, or the crime they cause is offset by the increased presence of people in the neighborhood, even when most of the residents are off at work or are asleep? In my formulation, the city need only guarantee that crime rates don't increase -- perhaps by increasing police presence in the area until it's clear that the stores in question aren't causing crime to begin with, and then phasing them out.
But those residents elsewhere have different elected officials. The job of your elected officials is to please the residents specifically of your neighborhood.
Those different elected officials still serve on a legislative body that makes decisions that affect you, your representatives opinion, even if it serves you can be outnumbered by all the others.
Choosing another representative doesn't work as well (if it would anyway) when an elected official serves for four years and the state constitution doesn't provide for recall like western states generally do.
...we thereby feed car dependency.
Some people want to be dependent on their cars. I wouldn't mind that if they paid for their use with appropriate fees.
Or place shelters whenever possible in nonresidential neighborhoods.
"Our Town" apparently no longer has a website, so I can't provide a link. Sorry about that.
But you have to keep doing it. Don't let a few people hijack the rest of the neighborhood. The elected officials from the area understand what their constituents want, but repeating the message never hurts. Complacency is BAD.
MTA's construction of the 63-125 segment will help the cause if construction is largely hassle-free.
The other thing that will help? When ESA opens in 2010, pressure on the Lex will increase yet again. As the LIRR's new service approaches, the few NIMBYS who make noise will get run over. This isn't the LaGuardia project. Too many people want it.
This is solvable, by a)sufficiently compensating the business so the owner doesn't care anymore; b) putting the entrance on a sidewalk and modifying the sidewalk, if need be.
These are details which are open for discussion.
It's early in the engineering process, and objections like this can be dealt with. Besides, it will be years before a given business actually faces that possibility, so Maloney can say whatever she wants right now without hurting anything. For the record, she has supported the SAS, so I wouldn't complain about her too much at this point. She has a good relationship with the Manhattan Borough Prez, who wants the subway.
I think there are some people in the Bronx who would like to have a word with you...
Eminent Domain says you need to pay the government's assessment of fair market value for the property when you take it away from the owner. If you're an owner, good luck getting what it's actually worth, much less what it may be worth to YOU.
The government always overpays for property, relative to what it can be paid for in the private market.
(This is solvable, by a)sufficiently compensating the business so the owner doesn't care anymore; b) putting the entrance on a sidewalk and modifying the sidewalk, if need be.)
You are assuming that this "issue" isn't just a stalking horse for something else.
The problem is, whether you're talking about the SAS or most other contentious issues, even things as diverse as abortion and gun control, the "anti's" tend to be far more vehement in their opposition than the "pro's" are in their support.
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Another interesting take on the future of passenger rail.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07142003.shtml#Passenger
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Nice to see so many people out in auto-land discovering Amtrak.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07142003.shtml#Western
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Go Gunn! Nothing produced revenue sitting broken in a yard. I wonder if Amtrak should have some sort of car sponsoring/naming programme to try to bring in some more repair $$.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07142003.shtml#Ten
: (
Train rolls in, signaling end to Louisville-to-Indy trips
Mark
wayne
The truth is that, for most americans, the passing of Amtrak would merely be a sad day, reported as the last story on the world news as the day the once-vaunted American long distance train died, not really important in the larger commerical transportation scheme. Railfans, people who don't like to fly, and the elderly (I dunno, just seems like the three groups I see most often, sometimes one person covers all three :]), would all take a grevious hit, but would recover eventually. We would lose the use of a massive rail transportation system, which comes unlike the highway system, largely free of all cost, outside maitenance. Most places in America would hardly notice the passing of america, no doubt greyhound or some other bus operator would step up and fill the roll of providing distant rural transportation, while the states or cities took over the largest passenger terminals providing commuter service. No doubt the NEC (possibly including Harrisburg, Newport News and Maine), Empire Corridor (I suppose to Toronto), Chicago Corridor, Amtrak California stuff, and the Cascades would be saved, and operated by the states with similar government funding as before, except now it'd come through a slighly different source.
Fortunately for Gunn, he's operating in Washington DC, where everything, even the laws of physics, is what you say it is. All he has to do is keep saying that America needs trains in a manner that convinces the congresspeople and he's good to go. Of course the challenge there is that it's kinda hard to convince people from states that don't even see rail service that their consitituents will see some sort of fall off in their quality of life if they don't back pro-Amtrak legislation.
I wish Gunn a lot of luck, he's doing a pretty good job, but he needs to work on Amtrak's operations, making them more passenger-friendly, this isn't the 1940s anymore, railroads can't dictate terms to the passengers, because then they'll just hop in the car for the nearest airport.
"Fortunately for Gunn, he's operating in Washington DC, where everything, even the laws of physics, is what you say it is. All he has to do is keep saying that America needs trains in a manner that convinces the congresspeople and he's good to go. Of course the challenge there is that it's kinda hard to convince people from states that don't even see rail service that their consitituents will see some sort of fall off in their quality of life if they don't back pro-Amtrak legislation."
You have it backwards. Yes, there are rail advocates who do that, but Amtrak's main problem (or opportunity? depends on your point of view) is that Representatives and Senators refuse to cut pet trains running through their home districts even if only two people (the engineer and conductor) are riding them.
The elected officials are responsible to their constituents. Evidently their constituents want rail service, or at least the jobs that go along with it.
That would give the trains a certain NASCAR look...maybe they could introduce it on trains that serve racetracks, like those that go to Daytona, or the special trains that run to Dover, DE on race days, and the sponsors would be the sponsors of big name racers..."Hey Earl, I'm riding in the Jeff Gordon car!"
: )
Mark
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The question is, will this mean more of the same delays w/ just an excuse or an oppurtunity for more delays.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07142003.shtml#UP
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Their first recomendation was that MTBA exit the market entirely and stop screwing up their money making freight trains.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07142003.shtml#CSXrecommends
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Their first recomendation was that MTBA exit the market entirely and stop screwing up their money making freight trains.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07142003.shtml#WMATA
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Nice to see new track being laid, too bad its in Texas.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df07142003.shtml#BNSF
In 1961 I went over the station for a week, in a photographic essay. I used an 8X10 large format camera. I still have all the negatives, and as soon as I get them cleaned I will attempt to get them online. When it comes to Penn Station I could care less who steals my pictures, I just want to generate awareness of what we loss.
Very well put. The first time I was in Penn Station, it almost felt like you were outdoors in the platform waiting area, thanks to the filtered natural light coming in from the vast glass ceiling. It was hard to see the ceiling, thanks partly to dirt, but also to smoke from the dining car fires coming from below. It was just awesome.
On the less pleasant side, the entrance gallery from 7th Avenue (at street level in those days) was like a roman ruins. High ceilinged, but dark and dirty. The many once-fine shops that lined it were closed and their walls and windows filthy. But this didn't detract from the magnificence of going down to the ticketing area, which is now the waiting room.
It really was sad in October of 1963 when the station got the recking ball... I'll admit, it was dirty (probably the main reason for destroying it)
The reason for Penn Station's destruction is dismally depressing. The developers wanted a large space to build the new MSG. It could just as well have been built in the two blocks south of Penn (29th to 31st Streets) with all the crappy little commercial buildings that were there at the time. But Penn Station had a special attraction. Two in fact. First, PRR already had the legal permission to close 32nd Street between 7th and 8th, so there was no wrangling with city officials to close 30th, as would have been necessary if the MSG was located there, and second (and most important), the developers could deal with a single willing entity (PRR) to negotiate the property purchase, instead of dozens of stubborn commercial landlords at the alternate location.
I am confident that if Penn Station had made it to the 70's or 80's it would have at least been saved, and then more recently undergone a spectacular renovation like it's cousin on 42nd St. Out of the two, I think Penn was the more spectacular building. Not that I would want Grand Central gone, but Penn was probably the one that should have survived. But thank goodness that at the very least Grand Central is still with us, and shinier and more polished than ever:
I'm just sorry I can't post a photo of the glorious renovation of the old Pennsylvania Station, next to the spectacular job they did at Grand Central.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Yes, standing on the stairs and looking down at the PM rush hour of the main room is awesome. The hustle and bustle is overwhelming. I must go back there and observe it more and take more photos. :)
Yes, the station is still there, but the character has changed since it is now only a commuter station.
Gone are the families waiting expectantly at a gate to catch the first sight of a loved one arriving, or waiting with someone who was leaving, and walking to the train with him or her, so see the person into his stateroom or seat. Gone too, is the really crowded main hall, which you had to push your way through, using the features high in the station to retain your orientation if you were not taller than most of the crowd, and with long lines formed at each ticket window (and not just one or two windows open). Gone too are the Redcaps following a passenger with a baggage cart that looked like a modified refrigerator dolly piled high with luggage. Back in those days, no civilized traveler would attempt a trip with nothing more than one light suitcase and a carry on bag.
Tom
Larry, RedbirdR33
Can the PRR really be blamed? While its failure was still several years off, based on what I've understood the company was in very bad financial shape in the early 1960's. The original Penn Station may have been a white elephant it could no longer afford, as may be evidenced by the station's poor condition in its final years. Moreover, the idea of using a station's extra space for useful commercial purposes - think DC Union Station - did not exist at the time.
Today it's easy to look back and say that Penn Station's demolition was a disgrace, but at the time, things weren't so cut and dried.
This brings up another historical question.
Was there ever through electric service from New Jersey to Long Island (Brooklyn or Queens) as part of the original 600 V DC electrification on the PRR and the LIRR. The DD1 locomotives were the first electrics.
Electrification made the original Pennsylvania Station a reality.
No there was not. While the PRR held a controlling interest in the LIRR it managed it as a completely separate company. It was more closely integrated with the H&M (now PATH) than it was the Long Island.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why is it that people try to pass off lies as truth on Subtalk? And the Weimar Republic WAS Germany!
Of course, the following day I rode on the subway for the first time. A red-letter date in my life if there ever was one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So don't despair...too much. There is much to admire right now.