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-Stef
-Stef
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Isn't there an option for yet another fifty, to finish out the 1200 series?
wayne
Hey Juice, are you one of the top guys?
You mean in person, right?
I find it hard to believe that you've never seen them before at all...
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
wayne
Peace,
ANDEE
That was an R44 car you mentioned, not an R68.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Easiest way is the car numbers.
R-68 = 2xxx
R-68A = 5xxx
Bill "Newkirk"
Peace,
ANDEE
Installing a new rubber floor in a subway car in one piece would be absurd. The flooring sections are installed piece by piece. The seams where the sections meet are "welded" together. Not by a welding torch, but by a special iron where a color matched spool of vinyl is fed into the heating element of the iron. The melted vinyl bonds the two sections and makes a water tight seal to keep water from getting underneath the floor, which would make the rubber flooring to lift. If you look, you can see these "welds" on those black rubber floors. I know of this because we had our hall floors redone and this same method was used.
Bill "Newkirk"
John
Stef & N Train started the day sanding, priming and changing out
windows on 6688. Midday they were joined by the PM crew, Mr. T. &
BMT Man. But at the conclusion of the work day, they did remove
some oxidation from the wheels of the R-17, after the demand hours
ceased. [The Lady in Red couldn't come out to play on Saturday, due
to the weather conditions]. Weather permiting Stef & Andy B will
continue prepping and final coating it next Wednesday. Any assistance
of extra hands are welcomed to join the work party.
I was the designated car cleaner and took care of four service cars
during the course of the day, including bug removal from the windscreen of BRT 4573.
George P & Linecar 25 were at the East Haven Trestle changing over
the overhead, power line, etc,. to a replacement line pole.
George B, tended to his manegerial chores, as required and also
road tested a candidate for operations.
But the surprise of the day, after lunch was when George B asked, if
I would be interested in posing "A Trolley Car" in the vicinity of
Beacon Hill for a photo shoot. I advised CONNCO 1602 & operator
would be available for the assignment. To put the scenario in perspective,
that's a 1911 Trolley Car posing on a 1899 ROW, which
basically, other then the removal of the 2nd track, is the same
as it has been for 100+ years. "Living History".
After, the photo session, returned to the yard area and closed up
and parked the other vehicles, which were not needed and then "Polished the Rails" with 1602 along with S\A Mr. R-17 operating a streetcar. Well, there are similarities to seasoned IRT equipment. Longitudal seating and a concrete floor.
Wednesdays are work days at Branford, so come on up and get dirty. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Remember 1602 was remanufactured by the CONNCO Crew,
most of whom have other employment, on Mondays and Tuesdays.
The museum is not a Saturday\Sunday function.
CONNCO Crew now doing 865 Monday & Tuesday. Stef & Andy B will be
working on 6688 on Wednesdays. I'll be tending to service fleet as required or operations after 27 May. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Cheers,
Your Friendly Neighborhood S/A
8-) ~ Sparky
And also such things as a spouse who says that those days belong to her :-)
Given that my round trip travel time from the house in New Jersey to the Museum and return is six hours, I'll stick to Saturdays... that way I have Sunday to recover before going back to work Monday. One of these years I'll be able to retire and be a bit more flexible.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have one of those also, most Branfordites do.
>>>"Given that my round trip travel time from the house in New Jersey to the Museum and return is six hours, I'll stick to Saturdays..."<<<
To keep everything in the proper perspective, shouldn't that be
occasional Saturdays? Don't embroider the facts. Yes, all donated
time is treasured, some come once a month, some for a week or so of
vacation and others dedicate whenever possible. It's a strong mixture
of devotion to a cause. And a good number are functional in more than one location.
As for drive time, I stopped counting those hours years ago.
When I was still employed, at various times in my Branford tenure,
I've been the Friday or Monday person in operations. Now, Wednesdays
are more prevalent to availability. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
But you have two things going for you that I don't: one, you're retired, and two, your spouse shares some of your enthusiasm for the Museum.
To keep everything in the proper perspective, shouldn't that be occasional Saturdays? Don't embroider the facts.
No one's embroidering anything, Sparky... you and every other Branford member on this board know that I come up when I can, which during the main operating season (May - October) is usually twice a month. It was simply a reference to Saturday being the day of choice - you're reading too much into my original statement. Very few members - even among the ranks of those fortunate enough to be retired, like yourself - have the option of devoting even one full day a week to BERA, and I'd venture to say that almost all of those who do spend that much time on behalf of the Museum are not significantly involved in other activities.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's your opinion, to which you are entitled. But many Branford
weeklies are employed and do have other interest. I've been their
for 18 1/2 years, so I think, I know who does what when. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
The wife, sure I'll be sure to save a couple of days to do something nice with her < grin >
Why can't all stations look like this?
wayne
Your own photos say it all
wayne
Franklin's color scheme is a bit loud, but in a way that's part of its charm.
The station has remained in excellent condition, partly because it has comparatively low traffic, and it's not in a neighborhood that sees a lot of riff-raff.
"Why can't all stations look like this?"
Every year, a few more stations improve. But as Larry Littlefield recently pointed out, if a renovation is meant to last 50 years, it means that only 1/50th of the stations are renovated each year. So it's a slow process. And it is only comparatively recently that station beauty has been part of the equation.
I've also observed that the really beautiful rehabs tend to be at local stops. The express stops and major transfer points suffer a lot of wear and tear, and don't seem to get this type of rehab. Times Sq is getting there, however.
Except Chambers itself, which looked scruffy when I was there last November, staying at the Cosmoplitan Hotel which is right by that station. I agree that Franklin looked pretty nice.
Mark
I don't work for TrainWorld but I now many of you purchase these sets so I figured here's some advanced word.
Look here
--Mark
--Mark
I'll bet Nassau Hobbies & Willis Hobbies will also take such an order, if those stores are more convient to you.
With Train Land/World make sure they put the cost on the pre-order as they have the habbit of raising it if they see a big demand by the time it comes in.
>>>"TrainLand/World is also STILL taking orders for the soon to be released Proto 2000 series HO scale R-17 sets from LifeLike (due in June)."<<<
Brooklyn, there's your HO scale set. From my understanding, the
LifeLike R-17 will be exclusive to TrainLand/World with an allocation
for the Transit Museum Store. [Licensing agreement and yes TainLand/World
is a large enough dealer to have an exclusive limited run]. Hope that info helps you. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
You are a gentleman, and a scholar.
And the crash-it was supposed to be a "simulated" crash-i.e. stop the train, remove it from the track, and treat the section of track as temporarily unusable. Ironically it happened to end up actually crashing. To this day I'm trying to figure out how the hell that happened...not enough pins, maybe?
On a lighter note, the thought of TrainWorld brings back memories...when my family's hobbies were cost-effective...I used to go there like every other week with my father in the summer, we would either take the L to the M to the F (transfer @ 4th/9th) to Ditmas, or if it was a weekend we took the L to the A to the F. I always thought they were a small local hobby store on McDonald Ave...I never knew they had such large (and expensive) operations.
Corona Maintenance Shop
Guided Tour
Saturday June 21, 9:00 AM
Members $15, Non-Members $20
RESERVATIONS AND ADVANCE PAYMENT REQUIRED.
The Corona Maintenance Shop supports the 400-plus car fleet of the #7 Flushing Line. Five sets of track cand hold up to 55 cars within the shop and the 29 storage tracks in the yard have a capacity of 409 more. Join Joseph Ragusa, superintendent, as we tour the entire facility, including a subway car wash. A new facility will soon replace the current structure, constructed to support the many technologies and features of the new 142 and 142A cars.
==================================================================
The number to call for reservations or questions is : 718-694-5139 Tuesday - Friday 10 AM to 4 PM.
These tours have a limited capacity and they do fill up fast.
Really? Not to be rude or anything, but does anyone know where I can obtain details on this new facility.
...and here's the other page of interest for you guys
Thank you
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
“Them” is Rich Galiano, who has put together a great site about NJ Scuba resources. However, he is very opinionated on just about everything (including browsers) and will be sure to share it with you. If you want to discuss the browser issue, send him e-mail at galiano@optonline.net.
Getting this back to transit, Rich has been working on an underwater tripod, so he can take long, naturally lit shots underwater, similar to the ones Herb Segars took of the dead PATH trains. He had his second prototype ready yesterday and took it and camera/housing into the pool to see how it worked on an Open Water class that was running.
Now all we need is some NJ Redbirds!
John
However, they are using FrontPage, which means sooner or later something is going to break Netscape/Mozilla/ & Opera support. And since this webmaster believes that CSS doesn't work properly in anything other than IE, he probably won't bother fixing anything that doesn't view properly under other browsers since he is under the false impression that if it works under IE, that it is the fault of other browsers for not following the "standard".
It's my opinion that you don't run a web site to exclude people from viewing it-- on purpose. I can understand to a point why it's done -- hire cheap developers who only know one browser, etc-- but I suspect very few corporate webmasters have gone into their CEO's office and said "here's our cool new site and we expect that 10% of our customers won't be able to use it." and left with their jobs or asses intact. They say instead "Everyone can just upgrade their browsers! Yay!"
In the corporate world you don't go around upgrading system components because it's "cool" and you certainly don't let end users do the upgrades themselves. That's one of the reasons why we're stuck with NT 4.0 and Office 97 on the desktops here. It takes a lot of effort to certify that upgraded components work well together and are supportable. You don't upgrade a trading floor system "because it's Cool". But no one's told web developers that! You end up having developers build apps that the end user desktops can't support, within the same firm.
BTW, what version of Solaris are you using? I've worked on Versions 1.1.2 up to and including 9. I actually have an old Sparc 20 at home that I took from my last job after I retired all but one machine that was lower than an Ultra.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ahh...memories, my first machine was a 486/66. It is still running somewhere in Brooklyn as I gave it to a friend.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Opera 7.03 on a Win98 box here, and I don't have any trouble accessing the site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Briefly, the plan calls for re-zoning a large swath of land in the vicinity of the Hudson Yards. The #7 subway would be expanded westward to 11th Avenue, and then southward to 33rd St. New stations would be added at 42nd & 10th, and at 33rd & 11th. The scoping document says that the re-zoning and the subway construction must go hand-in-hand, neither one being much good without the other.
This subway route is a change from earlier documents, in which the #7 extension would have gone south before turning west, including a stop at Penn Station. That plan would have offered a 1-seat ride between GCT and Penn Station (I am not sure how valuable that is), but it would have been more complicated to construct due to the tangle of existing lines and the built-up commercial activity along 8th Avenue. Also, the new plan provides two new stations in areas now lacking subway service, instead of just one such station.
Not a lot of detail is offered about the subway extension (which is appropriate in a scoping document), but it appears the tail tracks would point south, not west. This suggests that any future #7 extension will continue down the West Side, not into NJ as some people have suggested. The construction period for the subway extension is given as 2005-2010.
Also mentioned are plans to expand the Jacob Javits Center, to build a new "Multi-Use Facility," and a hotel complex. The "Multi-Use Facility" is what other people call a "Stadium," but the term has been chosen to emphasize its adaptability to other uses than merely as a place where the Jets would play 10 games a year.
The Olympics are mentioned, but only in passing. Clearly, they do not want to place undue focus on a 1-time 3-week event that might not even come here.
Honestly, Brooklyn has excellent access to Downtown Manhattan, it's time Staten Island gets it's due.
"The portion between Battery Park and St. George can be retrofitted with high speed (70 MPH) capabilities...."
It can't be retrofitted, until it has first been fitted.
(Seriously, the plan at one time was to extend the 4th Avenue Line in Brooklyn to Staten Island. Robert Moses killed it, so that he could build the Verrazano Bridge instead. That would be a cheaper way to bring the subway to S.I.)
http://1010wins.com/siteSearch/winstopstories_story_116090021.html
The problem is that it will never happen. Many people in the areas around CI would welcome the Casinos and the Jobs they would bring.(dealers make between $17-30 hour) Unfortunitly the ultra librals who rightfully claim that gambling brings many social ills would never allow it. What they fail to mention is those who are prone to blowing all there money on gambling already have an outlet
ie OTB, LOTTO, free bus to Atlantic city, local illegal gambling hall, cock fights etc
In addtion with the building of kewspan park there is not much beachfront real estate big enough to develpe a casino without tearing out some of the outdated amusment attractions such as the batting cages and go carts or tear down and relocate the poorly placed public housing projects that dominate the landscape
The Govenors island location quietes alot of the critics who would use land use and traffic review studies to stop any casino developemtn in Coney Island. Much of the NIMBYism is generated by groups such as NYPIRG who looks to find a victom so that they can file a lawsuit to stop the project any project
A NYPIRG affiliated group sued the parks department a few years back who preposed to allow Golden Bear golf to build a golf driving range on a derilict stetch of land that was officially park department property along the belt parkway just west of cropsy ave. The site consited of 2 soccer feids and 25 acres or trash and weeds. Not far fron the new home depot
The NYPIRG affiliated group used statistics in there lawsuit that stated brooklyn had two few parks and that a pay driving range would infringe of the right of NYC citizensd. paying no mine to the fact that the area where this facility was to built has tons of parkland and the proposed location is not near many residences and is hardly used by parkgoers. Neighborhood group supported the parks department plan
To make this long story short they found a judge to block the project. The two old soccer feild and weeds and garbage are still there
The develper would have paid an annual $600k payment to the parks department, built a waterfront promenade plus build an addional 10 acres of ballfeilds and soccer feilds that golden bear would have paid for the upkeep
A CI casino no matter how good for the econmomy will never happen. The biggest winners would be all the housing project residents that surely would get the lions share of jobs at the casino as any deal to bring the casino would need to give consesions to the community
Arti
1. you dont want to put another mall out in da boondocks.
2. more better? Not to nag, but that's bad english 101.
I was of course only messing around. heh.
It had one bennifit it chased the hookers away with all the extra traffic
what made me laugh the most about the state senator Karl "the idiot" Kruger is he argued that the casino NY boat would attract undesirable, The area where the boat was and may return this spring was cleaned up by the boats arrival
The boat sits next to the Wind Jammer hooker hotel plus on the other side of the highway the golden gate in also features many street walkers
On the other hand, if you've ever been to Laughlin, Nev., you know that people will go pretty much anywhere and entrepreneurs will build any type of hotel building if they cam put a casino in it. Even with its isolation, if casino gambling was licensed for the Rockways, people would find a way to get there, and others would find ways to build hotels out there.
A downside to that would be any possible height restrictions on the hotel buildings due to the JFK flightpaths (given how close the airport is to the strip in Las Vegas, this may not be a major problem), while the larger problem would come from tourist-related businesses in midtown Manhattan that would fight any casino idea for the Rockaways (or Coney Island) for fears it would cut into their business. The Atlantic City hotel owners and the state of New Jersey would also try to fight any NYC casino plan -- the casinos because it would cost them all their casino bus "day trippers" who would turn into MTA "day trippers" if there was a CI or Rockaways option and the state because all that gambling tax money NJ gets right now from New Yorkers would vanish, and possibly go the other way if people from northern New Jersey decied CI or the Rockaways was a better option.
If the administration were to consider casinos...no doubtedly the MTA would have to do something about it to compensate for the expected additional ridership numbers.
For example, take the 7 extension to the West Side. It's being done for the Olympics, but benefits are also mentioned on the MTA's website, as noted by oakapple. Examples include development, especially commercial around the Hudsen Bay area, quite barren indeed.
Now we turn back to the Rockaways area. In many ways, it's quite barren ever since all of the hotels and other places of interest left the area since I dunno...hmm 1950's? If anything please correct me on the year. Back to the issue, the casinos would bring needed money anbd tourists which in turn bring more money to the city... All good of course, unless you believe the casinos bring 'social ills' as some other poster posted within this thread, I believe. I won't comment any more on the issue because I don't any more on it, but other posters may do so at their own discretion.
All the way back to the topic at hand, the MTA would probably add new rail connections or somehow improve the A line's infrastructure in relation to the entire system. I know many people are aware of the LIRR Rockaway ROW along in Queens. This would be a perfect opportunity. Rehab the line and have the A run along this line. Just a perfect solution. I wouldn't know where the extension would end north, but I'd assume it would act as a new line in Queens, maybe connecting with the Queens Blvd. IND. IMO, this plan has a lot of parallels with the CI Stillwell Terminal Project. Besides the reconstruction, and the Manny-B reopening coinciding with it, that draft plan suggested changes that will improve service along the Brooklyn subway lines. I'm sure the plan I suggested with the A change in the Rockaways would have a similar effect, demanding changes in other parts of the system.
Whew, that was a lot... A lot more so then I thought. I'm sure my plans are not perfect so give suggestions or augment my plan as you wish.
Thanks, CPCTC!
With the increase in residence the line may warrent more service
The A already has a northern line. Perhaps it would be best to extend a QB local along this line.
There is one developement currently in construction phase in the rockaways that took the developer 10 years of jumping through hoops ti get done.
CI is a better choice because it will draw many NJ gamblers and is close to the belt parkway. The rockaways has terrrible highway access with only the Marine Parkway and cross bay bridges and limited access road once in the rockaways.
CI along CI creek has plenty of developent areas that are not really sutible for housing and if more casino space is needed a platform over CI yards could allways be built.
Another good casino site would be above corona yards and casey stengal depot. There could be great access to both manahattan and the airports via an extention of airtrain to connect LGA to JFK. I already envision a new convention center and Hotel for the Area why not add a casino component.
Plus Flushing Medows Corona park adds places for gamblers or the spouses who do not like to gamble a place to roam around
What happened with Disney's proposal to come to CI, if they have an establishment there they could generate lots of revenue; especially since younger kids love Disney; for the area seeing there's lots of empty space.
Surely there has to be better ways for us collectively to support and upgrade our cities than to encourage people to spend what little they've managed to accrue above living expenses on meager chances to gain minor financial gain. Do we need yet one more blatent example to children of how silly and phony the adults are? As a "city rebuilder" concept it's a bust, consider how little of Atlantic City has actually been renovated. And A.C. has been a resort city for over a century! You might assume that it could really absorb he industry to its benefit. But away from the Boardwalk.....
To pin such hopes on the gambling industry is a sad, pathetic development. It helps the miniscule number of casino employees a little, and the owners a great deal. Would it help Rockaway Beach? I have my doubts. Build a Great Adventures or Busch Gardens there instead. Or make the beach as good as Jones Beach.
I preposed the idea as the only way a subway to SI via lower manhattan would be viable. Otherwise the ridership on the new SI branch would be so low that it would go down as the biggest porkbarrel project in NYC history
This plan makes much more sense. A 1-seat ride from Penn to GCT would have been nice, but the cost would have been immense and the overall benefit to the west side (and resulting tax base increases) lower.
Arti
But not from GCT to Penn!
Arti
I wonder whether they really have the tax base in mind. There is dicussion in the documents of moving the tow pound and sanitation facilities off of the river and into this neighborhood. This doesn't sound like the kind of neighborhood one would want to live or work in. A massive convention center -- which would be busy by day but likely be empty most nights. A massive "multi-use" facility -- which would be filled to capacity probably less than 20 times per year and unused a good 250 days per year. A sanitation truck depot and transfer station. The LIRR's West Side Yard. The Lincoln Tunnel access ramps. A massive auto impound yard. Is the Greyhound bus facility still in there somewhere?
Rather than creating a "revitalized neighborhood", it seems that they're creating a dumping ground for eyesores.
At least there won't be any costs in the EIS to relocate the hookers.
CG
With construction being scheduled to start at the end of 2004 and the Olympic bid being decided during the Summer of 2005, New York is able to hedge the Olympic issue. On the one hand they can tell the International Olympic Committee that the subway extension is already under construction. Of course if the IOC goes and awards the Games to another city, not so much has been done that the project can't be quickly and cheaply abandoned.
I haven't made my way entirely through the documents yet to see if it is there, but hopefully they can improve the connection between the 8th Avenue lines and the 7 train. Is it just my perception, or does one have to walk much farther than necessary to make this transfer?
I think you're right as far as New Jersey goes -- at least the oft-speculated connection to the Meadowlands. It appears that the extension is going to go below the 8th Avenue line, curve north up to 42nd Street (the 7 is on 41st at Times Square, correct?), below the Amtrak West Side line, curve south on 11th Avenue and go over the Lincoln Tunnel and Amtrak/NJT tunnels to terminate at 33rd St facing south. I'd assume that being that far west but that close to the surface would preclude any immediate crossing into NJ -- but there's a 1/2 mile along 11th Avenue heading south that it could drop and head out to Hoboken or Jersey City.
Or Staten Island -- yeah. That's the ticket. Staten Island.
CG
Doesn't seem likely.
Is it just my perception, or does one have to walk much farther than necessary to make this transfer?
It's your perception. It really has to be a hike. The west end of the 7 platform is only 300' west of 7th Ave and 750 east of 8th Ave.
Thanks. I was vaguely aware of that, though not to the extent of the detail you provided. I think that most of my perception comes from the access from the 7 to the 8th Ave not being at the extreme west end of the platform.
Perhaps a few million out of the billions could be put towards a nice pair of escalators, an elevator and a wide walkway with moving sidewalks to cover the distance between 7th and 8th.
CG
Clearly, if the #7 construction isn't underway by the time the IOC votes, NYC's chances of getting the Olympics are very slim. (I consider them slim already, but that's beside the point.) But I wouldn't be so quick to conclude that the project will be abandoned if the Olympics go elsewhere. I think they are truly serious in their belief that the #7 extension has long-term benefits regardless of the Olympics.
The #7 extension and upzoning of the West Side predates the whole Olympic idea by at least half a decade, perhaps a decade.
'Construction of the new (7) Subway Line Extension is expected to begin by Winter 2004.'
If anything, it's not so surprising to me since the MTA is have strides with the Manny-B project right now.
When I first read that I thought they meant Jan/Feb of 2004. From the dates for the EIS, though, it becomes clear that by Winter 2004 they mean that little 9-day stretch between Dec 22 and the end of the year. Which is still quite ambitious by NY standards.
CG
Pointing the line south does allow for tail tracks at 33rd and for a future extension, though given the closeness to the Hudson south of 27th St. or so, sending it underground the rest of the way downtown in that area probably isn't feasible -- it would either have to come back east to Ninth or 10th Ave. and then down Greenwhich or Washington streets, or they would have to bring the line above ground south of 33rd and run it elevated the rest of the way, probably along 12th Ave. or West Street (yea, the High Line is an option at least to 14th St., but the NIMBY headaches wouldn't be worth the battle)
As far as the New Jersey connection, but continuing straight across 11th Ave. that doesn't preclude a future junction somewhere in the area that would allow some trains to go to New Jersey while others continued to 33rd and 11th, or further downtown (given number of TPH on the Flushing line, even sending half the trains to Jersey and keeping half in Manhattan would still give both routes as much service as several other lines receive with their full compliment of trains).
A Greenwich Street line could make a connection to both of the PATH's Christopher Street and new WTC station. This new IRT extension could continue straight down Greenwich then merge and/or terminate with the 1/9 at South Ferry.
41st and 10th Avenue... The Number Seven is on 41st Street.
N Bwy
It will consist of me, at midnight, standing and foaming at the railfan window of the preserved Redbird as we traverse the new line on the first revenue train. David Greenberger will probably come along with me, and maybe 2 or 3 of the other "hard core" NYC subway buffs will be present. Any more than five railfans on the train will be a big surprise. Then again, since it is in Manhattan, it may be closer to home for many of you, so maybe more of you will come out for the ride. Considering, by some estimates, that there are over 700 active members of SubTalk, I continue to find the enthusiasm for "first ride" trips to be severly lacking and pathetic. HOWEVER, I am very pleased with the turnout for Peggy's trip. That shows me that, at least during daylight hours, many SubTalkers are willing to walk the walk and talk the talk.
---Choo Choo
How would you define active? There were posts by 404 distinct handles throughout the month of April.
N Bwy
Please note the alignment on the CURRENT far west midtown page of NYC planning:
http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dcp/gif/pub/profwmt.jpg
Did you take the time to study this option?
The assumption is: subway + rezone = new CBD. It's not that simple.
Why not? That's been the development pattern for the last hundred years: build a subway, rezone, and buildings spring up. Hudson Yards is the last real "frontier" for ground-up development in midtown Manhattan, and it will have its very own subway line. I'm sure developers are already lined up to get a piece of it. Also, don't forget about the Jets stad- er, mulit-use facility planned for the site.
Where? Downtown and Midtown were CBDs before subways. If it's so simple, why didn't 8th Avenue -- which is a half-block from a CBD and on top of a 4-track subway -- take off decades ago?
N Bwy
I look forward to the analysis saying what the cost and ridership would be for the each route. If they even release all the info.
The conductor said there was nothing mentioned about a stepup fare.
Watch the Crap!
Mark
LIRR/MNR? Too late, the fares went up today. If you bought your tickets yesterday, they would have been honored today.
Watch the Crap!
Mark
They really ought to get rid of the "Coney Island Mixed Use Area" which is intended to prevent anything from happening in the area north of Memaid between Stillwell and Cropsey. If there were every an area where the transit availability calls for more commercial density, this is it. Lindsay proposed urban renewal and a major shopping center, but three people complained so he put in a special district to get their votes.
Lets hope he gets to CI before his term is up. Just another example of the non headline grabing work the Bloomberg administration is working on to improve our city for the future.
Let me give you a little inside information -- the staff members charged with getting those proposals through are not optimistic.
The City Council will be looking for opportunities to stick a finger in Bloomberg's eye to get their name in the paper. Not on the budget during a fiscal crisis. That would require saying "don't screw X screw Y instead." The Council wants to pretend to be on the side of X and Y. So they'll do it on land use.
It happened in the Giuliani Administration. The Council went along with Rudy on the budget -- until times got good and everyone wanted the credit for handing out poor. So they played games with land use.
That is why the concil is resorting to preaching in there update mailings that bloomberg is a millionair and out of tough
The truth shall set you free
Whether CI rezoning takes place or not. Who knows. At least Bloomberg will give it the old college try which is more than anyone else has done
There's also the minor fact that in many cases the locals don't want any rezoning for very good selfish reasons. I live in Manhattan Community Board 3, which is one of the most fanatical anti-rezoning boards in the city. They have successfully fought the introduction of high rises for 40 years, though there has still been considerable gentrification and corresponding increase in the tax base.
The opposition is partly left-wing ideology but partly also simple selfishness of the residents. I can see that the gentrification that has happened has brought good things as well as bad. In part, it has negated the moderate levels of traffic, density, etc., that attracted me to the neigborhood in the first place many years ago.
I especially like the the stanchions they used to support the terminal. They are nearly identical to the current ones.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
The NY State Supreme Court judge presiding the case by the Straphangers Campaign against the MTA reserved judgement of this issue until then next hearing date on Friday May 9th. The reason: They must prove documents that the MTA cooked it's books.
So wake up to reality, the fares on subway and buses will go up this Sunday.
Hevesi's public statements have suggested that there was no evidence that the MTA did anything legally wrong. They filed all the paperwork and reporting they were supposed to by law.
Hevesi even asserted that the fare should have been raised last year to close last years budget instead of using bond refinacing and toll revenue to pump of the MTA's books
"Budget Brinksmanship" (TimesUnion, no subscription needed)
Now aren't you sorry you insulted Moopatties? :)
Moo…
Chuck Greene
REMEMBER, HELP YOUR FELLOW NEW YORKERS and SCREW THE MTA. EXIT SWIPE AND GIVE YOUR UNUSED FUN PASSES AWAY!!
Happy 72nd Birthday to the Empire State Building, an edifice that would not be possible without the subways.
Peace,
ANDEE
And the tower that is the Empire State. I remember the big feature they did on its construction when New York: A Documentary aired on PBS a couple of weeks ago.
All I know is, whenever I think of NYC, the ESB comes to mind first. It is synonimous with New York, just as the R-10s are synonimous with the A.
I doubt that the subway had all that much to do with its construction. The closest line to it when it opened was the BMT Broadway line, at the other end of the block.
The other end of the block was a Transportation Hub, when ESB was
built. Besides the BMT Subway, there was the 6th Avenue EL and the
Hudson & Manhattan RR to downtown & New Jersey. The main entrance
was serviced by the Fifth Avenue Coach Company, while the cars of
New York Railway, plied 34th Street, 7th Avenue & Broadway.
BTW, here's a question, that many New Yorkers, can't seem to answer.
What is the street adress of the Empire State Building? >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Peace,
ANDEE
BTW, I know a Young Lady who worked at 350 5th for many years on the
5th Floor and to this day, has not been to the 86th or 102nd. She's
my bride of 36 1/2 years. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
(But as far as I'm concerned, once is enough... although I think I have been up there three times in my lifetime: once as a child, once with my wife and our older daughter when she was a teenager, and once again with friends around 1996.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Her attitude is if I didn't do it then, wy should I do it now.
Couldn't get her to go up in the late sixties\early seventies either. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Peace,
ANDEE
Amazingly, MOST people born and raised in the city never do any of that stuff. :-\
Anyways, it turned out to be the nicest ride I've had in a long time. I recall a post earlier about station names to be after streets and not neighborhoods. I brought up Cypress Hills and I was corrected by the response being the entrance was on Crescent St. I noticed the exit sign also said Hemlock St & Jamaica Ave & Crescent St. So to go back to the station topic for a bit, Cypress Hills can be renamed Hemlock St-Jamaica Ave.
Back on topic here, I tried to find the Chestnut St connector, which if I'm not mistaken, connected at one time to the LIRR Rockaway ROW that's now abandoned. I remember the discription of the structure like an old switch section, but I couldn't find it on both trips. Maybe one of those new box offices was built over it.
Well on my return trip, I decided to change to the L at the Junction to try out the new R160 and catch the 6 from Union Square. The R160's are nice, but I think they would have better usage on the G instead of the L. These cars have good acceleration and being the L has some really tight curves, maybe the R160 would have better use of the acceleration on the G line. I know about the new signal testing, sensors and stuff, but I'm just tossing in a little opinion here.
I noticed one error at Myrtle Ave. The train indicates this station as Wyckoff Ave. But overall, she's a fine piece of equipment.
Aside from the IRT, which is my current favorite, I've always had some passion for the BMT. Especially for the Eastern Division. Hopefully, when I become a T/O, if I don't get on the IRT, I would like to run on the BMT Eastern Division, the J line especially.
Also, when I get a digital camera, I would love to take night time pics from the Junction's L platform. Not for pics of the yard, but when facing East, the way the lights in the neighborhoods are lit are breathtaking. All those colors. Perfect for a calender picture.
Jimmy
Certainly Park Place-Chambers St on the 2/3 would be a candidate. By the time the end of the train has left Park Place, it seems the front car is already entering Chambers St. But several of the stations on the L in Brooklyn seem to be extremely close.
Anyone know for sure?
Mark Michalovic
Mark
Mark
Arti
I'm sure that would of got LOTS of opposition.
Arti
The entrances are somewhat further apart.
CG
Part of it depends whether the center of the platform is under the street for which the station is named. I don't know that for Beverley and Cortelyou.
On my Hagstrom's, the following street to street distances look like a dead heat to the nearest 100 feet or so:
Beverley to Cortelyou
Wall to Fulton on William (2/3)
Rector to Cortlandt on Trinity/Church (N/R)
And in the case of Wall to Fulton, the Wall St station is pretty much all north of Wall St, while the Fulton St station is at least 50% south of Fulton, so that might actually be the least track distance between platform ends.
That may be roughly true, but still doesn't necessarily make them the closest stations. It's also true of the ones I mentioned, and also Wall to Bowling green on the 4/5.
Those are some very short distances between stations.
Rector-Cortlandt (N/R) and Wall-Fulton (2/3) are definitely shorter than any of those 3.
The 3rd Ave and the 14th St station aren't centered on the street they're named after, but skewed all the way to one side (far N end of 14th St station is at 14th, far west end of 3rd Ave station is at 3rd Ave), so the distances between stations are almost as long as the distances between entrances.
You're forgetting about the Rockaway line. Also the tunnels under the East River are probably longer.
CG
The east (south) exit from Park Place 2/3 is about one block from the entrance to City Hall N/R.
The secondary exit at Rector N/R NB is very close to the secondary exit at Rector 1/9 NB -- IIRC, they share a traffic island. And 1/9 SB is across the street.
Whitehall N/R is about a block from South Ferry 1/9.
The south exit from 57th N/Q/R/W is two blocks from 7th B/D/E.
The main entrances at 50th 1/9 NB and 49th N/R/W SB are a block and change apart.
The shuttle entrance to Grand Central is between Madison and 5th, about one block from the 7 at 5th.
Nostrand 3 and President 2/5 are two short blocks apart.
Lawrence M/N/R and Jay A/C/F are a block apart, but they're being connected.
Lafayette C and Fulton G are named after the same intersection.
Queens Plaza and Queensboro Plaza are about two blocks apart.
What else?
Crazy part is that the C has no entrance on Lafayette. However, the entrance at S. Oxford is one block over from the Fulton G's (closed) S. Oxford entrance. And its a REALLY short block. These would probably be closest.
CG
By the way, neither the MTA neighborhood map nor the Hagstorm's map of lower Manhattan show an N/R Rector exit on the traffic island that has the 1/9 secondary exit. But those may still be the two closest unrelated entrances, just looking at the main entrances at Rector.
I estimate that they are about one half of a (vertical) car length apart.
Arti
All tickets orders received as of last Friday, April 25 have been
processed and mailed with the corrected flyer etc.
A NOTE TO ALL: it's IND cars on Sunday, June 8 & Saturday, June 28
departing the Chambers Street Station on the 'J', but that does not
relegate the excursion to BMT trackage. It's just any easy pick-up point,
where the train may park in advance, without intefering with weekend traffic.
But that doesn't lock it into BMT trackage, North to Essex Street,
reverse thru Chrystie Street [not in service connector] and you are
on IND trackage at Broadway~Lafayette. The routings have not been
determined to date. Capital construction [GOs] have precedence over
the excursions. Not available at this time for the month of June. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
But the flip helps those who prefer Saturdays, too. Whether you go on both Saturdays, or you go on both Sundays, or you go both days of the same weekend, you'll hit one A Division trip and one B Division trip.
Thanks again to whoever's responsible for the change!
---Choo Choo
Enough with the plaudits, the responsible persons behind the change
are not "Glory Seekers", but your contributing to this Charitable
Event is your best way to show your Thankfulness.
8-) ~ Sparky
This S/A will probably be sitting in Car 6609 for much of the trip (and soaking it all up) and enjoy some quality time with a relative of 6688.
I'd like to squeeze an R-1/9 trip in there somewhere, but that may be harder to come by.
-Stef
-Stef
But SMEE's, compared to the old timers WERE like driving a car by comparison. FWIW, "Dougie's train" scares me ... cab hooked up backwards, elevator stand to run it, I'd get that time/space continuum jiggy-legged "who teleported me to Heypaul's apartment?" thingy. :)
ME-23's may not RULE, but they DO stop. Most of the time anyway. :)
Hopefully they will stop before hitting a bumper block. Don't want SMEEs to turn into SMASHEs
The usual culprits have been in discussion, as to who's going on
which trip. The majority now seem to be doing the SMEE on Sunday,
June 29.
If we're watching ticket #s to see how sales are going, here's ours:
R1\9 - Sunday, June 8 - #72 & #73
R1\9 - Saturday, June 28 - #32
SMEE - Sunday, June 29 - #29
Since we didn't order tickets for Saturday, June 7 SMEE, will some
one who did, chime in with a number, please?
Advance Sales look strong for the 1st R1\9 excursion. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Yes, there still taking orders. The first batch of orders was processed
late last week and early this week. Seats are still available for all trips.
[Though by ticket numbers, the 1st R 1\9 is selling briskly].
So send your $$$ with a SSAE, ASAP and we will look for you on the trips. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
>>>"Oops I forgot to ask...exactly what forms of payment are acceptable (money order, personal check, cash, etc.)?"<<<
Dante,
Money Orders or Personal Checks, Payable to}:The March of Dimes{, are the preferred methods of payment. Don't send C*A*S*H*, a couple of others who mailed in early for tickets, had their orders returned. Seems the Post Office Person on the route that day, couldn't find the subway yard. [Don't Ask]. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
---Choo Choo
Your FEEBLE minded. Do you think a postal employee, who pilfers the
mails for C*A*S*H* would deliver same? Your thinking like a SCHMO!!!
No, the problem one day only, that I know of, was that the orders
were returned to the sender, "AS NO SUCH ADDRESS" or something
similar. I didn't see the exact terminology, but if either poster
choses, he can enlighten us further.
One of the envelopes was delivered at Members Day to the "P.M."
mailbox at Branford. He thought "it was so cute, they couldn't find
the subway yard in the Bronx, but located him in Connecticut." >GG<
8-)~ Sparky
Chuck Greene
---Choo Choo
Chuck Greene
TransitChuckG
I mean, Smeeeee...
:^)
Maybe you better send it back to driver's ed... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maybe you better send it back to driver's ed... :-)
Too late; I pronounced it "dead".
---Choo Choo
We recently moved, and I haven't come across my software stash yet. Also, the computer was nearly 4 years old, so with upgrades and hardware additions that I want, it's easier to start over; so I ordered a new one.
What I miss most is that I can't access my Webshots photos from work; Webshots is blocked by the morality application.
A computer-whiz friend recovered all my data for me, so I haven't lost my train/subway photos. My grandson photos were all backed up, and now I'll back up the train/subway photos, too.
Thanks for the suggestions.
Bob
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
"March Of Dimes" ... the benefactor of those who have bucks to ride Selkirk's favorite trains (Arnines) and them pesky SMEE's (redbird technology, starting with ArTens) ... wish I could make it, but once again we're sitting here waiting for an economy where folks can buy some of Unca Selkirk's software so's we can pay our bills and take a day arf to play. Alas, everyone appears to be trapped in their bunkers still.
Then again, I suspect the MTA has orders to "shoot to kill" should *I* show up anywhere near an Arnine sitting on "revenooer trackage" ... With our natural security code raised to "unpack yer Depends" level, I don't think security would let me anywhere NEAR a consist. :)
While my OWN preferences for charitable groups lean towards those who support legal freedom for anyone denied representation in political realities as well as electric railway museums, but more importantly FOOD BANKS and ENERGY supplimenters (after all, don't get cold in TEXASS) who keep people from *DYING* in winter) ... March of Dimes *is* a necessary and beneficial entity ...
Unca Selkirk though is TWISTED in what constitutes "public service" ... the ONE thing that is NOT considered in ANY "social welfare" scenario is the ability to provide the "poor" with "DRESS-WHITES" in military parlance so that they can LOOK presentable when they have an opportunity to go on a "JOB INTERVIEW" and have hopes of being PRESENTABLE ENOUGH to GET ONE. :(
Whoops ... right-wingers IGNORE that reality. Welfare would work MUCH better, and be available to ALL if only they covered *MY* situation when *I* tried to apply and got blown off 20 years ago ... "I need a SUIT and I need to pay my rent NOW ... if I can LOOK presentable, I *HAVE* skills, all I need is a *JOB* and my LAST JOB didn't REQUIRE me to have a SUIT ..."
Nope ... these are REPUBLICAN times and we can't HAVE ANY OF THAT. Nope, someone dressed like a bag of chit doesn't NEED a job. And the taxpayers don't WANT you to have that suit ... they'd rather PAY you to watch CNN. :(
Don't mind me ... March of Dimes does great work and all, but there's OTHERS in need right in YOUR neighborhood. And the politicos only want to shake them down too. :(
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
The IRT SMEE trips depart from Grand Central Shuttle Track 1 @ 1030am.
>GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
---Choo Choo
8-) ~ Sparky
30 St. - Philadelphia, Facing south from Tracks 1 and 2.
30 St. - Philadelphia, Facing south from Tracks 1 and 2.
Yard outside of PHL. (What is it called?)
The 10:09p Acela Express to Washington D.C. is on Track 5.
The Atlantic City line train (2-Comet IV cars) - Comet IV Cab #5025.
Oh, and that yard is the Race St Engine yard, I think that the area where the amfleets and RoadRailers are commonly stored is called like the Arch St Coach Yard. I'm fairly certain that it's now Powellton Coach yard, cause that's SEPTA's yard to the west, just on the other side of the High Line and DrexelShaft.
Either way, I generally refer to the lower level area as 30th St yard, theres not much else it could be mistaken for, other than SEPTA's yard, and thats not really at 30th St.
Wassaic - Facing south from ground level.
Wassaic - Facing south on platform level. Shoreliner #6311. Is this a I, II, or III?
The mountainous countryside on platform level - facing east.
Wassaic - facing south. Nothing but mountains on all four sides. Shoreliner Cab #6304 in photo.
Wassaic - facing west. The metal moose depiction is in the lower-right hand side.
Wassaic - facing north. Shoreliner #6311 is in the photo with the leading FL9 #2024. The exterior speaker is clearly shown. What is the function of the little waiting rooms on MNRR platforms? There is barely enough room to stand, and the room is not very big.
Brewster North. Transfer point while returning to GCT facing south. The FL9 is trailing away to the yard outside of this station.
FL9 #2024 - Side view from ground level - facing west.
To be honest, I'm not thrilled with the contemporary signs the MTA uses for the subways. They're just plain ugly to me. I don't mind the color usage as some posters do on this message board. In fact, I think it helps distinguish the subway from the commuter rail system in NYC. It's the style, really. I personally don't go for the Helvetica font. I mean, why did the MTA change from that Akidenz (sp?) stuff?
Anyway, the pics of the signs are great. Black-on-white, bold and italized! Wow....
I think MNRR has color-distinguishers according to its lines. This sign has a blue stripe at the top of the sign. Blue was the color of the Harlem line on the MNRR map.
What is the Akidenz you mention?
Manhattan-bound 7 approaching Queensboro Plaza. The fuzziness of some photos shows the quality of this railfan window.
Rockaway Park Shuttle - 116 St facing northeast. The emptiness of the platform despite it being PM rush.
Rockaway Park Shuttle. R44 #5225. Is the storage track on the other side of this train just an ordinary storage track?
The railfan window I had on the R44 shuttle back to Broad Channel. There is a shuttle heading back to 116 St. in the photo. Approaching Beach 105 St.
Manhattan-bound 7 just east of Willets Point. Shea Stadium is in the right side. There is a GT35 marker and under it is a capital "D". What does this letter stand for?
Manhattan-bound 7 closer to Shea Stadium. A Main St. - bound Redbird is approaching.
1. I don't know who saw the photos.
2. It would be acknowledged to give a response instead of using up the bandwidth like it was nothing at all.
Yes it WOULD matter if you moved the photos to a site that didn't have such restrictions.
What the hell are you talking about? Other people do not use Angelfire. Other people therefore do not have any problems with people seeing their posts. FIRE ANGELFIRE!
#3 West End Jeff
Oddly, the cab is at the left side at one end of the train and at the right side at the other end. Anyone know any other railway that does that?
AP
Nagoya Railway (Meitetsu) 7000 series
Odakyu Electric Railway 3100 series (retired)
and 7000 series
The Odakyu ones are also articulated trains.
I know that Japan National Railway had trains of this type too, but I don't remember off the top of my head, any web sites that has pictures of them.
BTW, most of the subways in Tokyo built during/after the 60s have catenary, because they have through service to the suburban lines.
This concept was in turn, adopted by SNCF/RATP through service of the RER in Paris. On the earlier RER lines, ownership of lines was transferred from SNCF to RATP. After a study of the Tokyo subway by both the SNCF and RATP administration, it was decided that a transfer of ownership wasn't necessary for through service.
Of course, NYC and London have seen this type of service even earlier than that, in the form of H&M/Pennsy joint service, BRT/LIRR through service and Met/GWR/LNER service. But in the US, FRA regulations prohibit such service today. Who knows the future though? If anything, I'd like to see one day a JFK Airtrain/LIRR/NYCTA through service.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
I had been assuming that NYCT would mail checks. Nope. New MetroCards, either PPR or unlimited.
I was hoping to buy a $120 unlimited this week, use it on the last day it will be accepted, and mail it in for a $116 refund. I don't want to end up with a PPR card with a balance of $139.20, if that's even possible, so I guess I'll have to find other ways to ease the pain.
Like going out Sunday and Monday and snatching up all the discarded cards with $1.50 balances.
Hey, I didn't think of that (don't worry I'm not going to steal your idea, I won't be anywhere near the city Sunday or Monday).....but seriously, I would think that the chance would be pretty good that there will be quite a few $1.50 cards thrown around when the turnsiles say it doesn't have enough funds. Many people don't want to be bothered, or may just think it's empty and fling it.
It would take someone with much patience and time however to swipe countless cards to see if they have cash though......but $4.00 funpass will still work......
Arti
(But, as the one who first posted this idea, I reserve the right to scope out other stations.)
Arti
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Arti
I didn't know limousine liberals had a sweet odor.
If I use it one day and send it in for a prorated refund, I'm entitled to $116.
But that $116 is in the form of a MetroCard, not a check. Since $116 is more than $10, it's subject to the 20% bonus. That brings it up to $139.20.
Artio
I have to make up for the loss of the $4 Fun Pass somehow.
Arti
I agree with your assessment of the Fun Pass. It was nice while it lasted, but it's effectively dead now. It will probably be officially killed off with the next fare hike due to low usage.
Arti
Not necessarily. Tourists may buy it for the sheer convenience of being able to ride as much as they want without worrying about spending more money. NYC would be out of line with most major tourist cities if it didn't have a "go anywhere you like for the whole day" kind of ticket available at all.
I agree that it will rarely be worthwhile for residents, given that single rides (including free transfer privileges) cost $1.67 with the discount.
Still very useful for active tourists.
Remember, they never wanted NYC residents to use it in the first place; that's why pre-MVM they only sold it in hotels, newstands, and the Transit Museum.
Interesting idea. At the racetrack, when I was young and struggling, I used to find lots of discarded tickets good for a refund after a horse was a late scratch. Once I made a quick $60 that way. It was easier than picking a winner. Many people don't know the ropes. The racetrack tickets could be identified just by visual inspection though. The only way to verify a MetroCard will be to swipe it. Tedious. But have fun! :)
On Monday, May 5th, shops and maintainance facilities of the Transit Car Equipment Department will be receiving new Inspectors as well as those who chose to make a move. I expect that everyone involved will greet them with due respect, even for the 'juniors.' There would be NO SUBWAYS without the department that inspects and maintains the trainsets. WE MAKE TRAINS GO. CI peter
http://mta.info/nyct/service/schemain.htm
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Arti
if only the redbirds were still here.........
The Q line still has 8 minute intervals most of the day on both Saturday and Sunday. The adjustment was made because ridership patterns are light on those times.
"Now that nothing's running over the bridge on weekends, the load is shared with other lines (R, W, IRT)."
The IRT going through that Montague rathole? And do we really want NYCT to recite the announcement "Please Watch Your Step" in a literal sense?
If anything, check out the B or D! They have many changes involving the Manny-B!
If anything, it's hard to get route timetables because most of the token booth clerks say no when I ask them. Pathetic., I have more luck if the station is devoted to one line, like G or 7. However, going for multi-route stops like TS generate nothing. I try to get a 1/9 brochure at the newest entrance and no dice. Just sad.
I see they're finally willing to admit that half of those Z trains don't stop at Broadway Junction...the three still listed as doing so probably don't either. They start at whatever lead is convenient, and stop at whatever stations they feel like. I have seen two Z's lined up to leave ENY at once, one stopping, one not. I still find it remarkable that out of only twelve (revnue) runs on the Z daily, they cannot keep the Z on time, ever. Of the six trains, at least one is always either late or out of sequence (i.e. Z-Z-J-J-J).
David
"Weekday W trains operate local in Queens, express in Manhattan
between 34 St and Canal St, and local in Brooklyn."
No they don't. On weekdays the W runs express in Brooklyn.
David G. and "Sylvain" are right and the PDF is wrong. W trains do indeed run express in Brooklyn on weekdays.
David
The LIRR seems to want nothing to do with the line east of Ronkonkoma. They don't even list Medford to Greenport on the online Ronkonkoma schedule!. You have to click the individual stations for the schedule. They are going to have to start to admitting it exists if the load at Ronkonkoma is ever to be eased. For the time being though, you are right - the machine will just collect dust for now.
What's the point of maintaining ROW if no mass transit is provided?
Arti
Plus I think that's the original LIRR main line.
Probably because those stations are listed on the GREENPORT branch schedule. [sigh]
That being said, I'm not sure I understand the point of the Daily TVM's. They don't look any smaller, they accept cash and credit cards just like the full TVM's. What's the point of only being a daily ticket machine? The only thought I have is that maybe they don't have to empty these of cash as often? Of course, are that many people really paying cash for their weekly/monthly tickets?
On the 6:42 from Medford, how full is the train when it gets to Ronkonkoma? What do you think would happen if after Medford it was next stop Jamaica? BTW it looks like Medford now has 4 trains a day in each direction -- is this just a summer thing?
CG
CG
Hmmm, I think it's just a daily machine, but I'm not completely sure. I'll have to take a look tomorrow morning.
On the 6:42 from Medford, how full is the train when it gets to Ronkonkoma? What do you think would happen if after Medford it was next stop Jamaica? BTW it looks like Medford now has 4 trains a day in each direction -- is this just a summer thing?
There are usually around 35 to 40 people getting off at Ronkonkoma. As to the feasibility of service to Jamaica, it's hard to say; some people might like the extra convenience, but I doubt there'd be enough to make the service worthwhile.
Medford's service level is the same all year.
Daily ticket machines are dark red in color while the standard TVM's are gray in color.
Bill "Newkirk"
The picture at the bottom of this page shows it was when the station opened. Not a very clear picture, but clear enough.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Peace,
ANDEE
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
Peace,
ANDEE
Ignoring or avoiding problems never solved anything. Discourse and debate is what makes a free society work. Many people feel that your behavior brings harm to the board and have sought to engage you in a variety of ways. You have responded with nothing but malice and vitriol. Have you ever stopped to think that the problem just lie a little bit with you and your behavior? Maybe if you would make a point to listen to other's critisism and meet people half way they would respect you more.
As long as you insist to post without regard to other's complaints, we will continue to respond without regard to yours.
I try to inject a little humor here at SubTalk,
This is dependent upon you actually being funny. Your "jokes" are usually little more than laundry lists of punchlines. You lack delivery. Do you think that YOUR USE OF CAPS or ........ will induce laughter? You'd be better off using *g* as in:
Redbirds should be called Rustbirds *g*
The *g* would tell us that it is time to laugh, something that your current "jokes" neglect.
Seriously, delivery is 80% of a joke and if you re-structured your writing they would probably be funny.
Here's a tip, unless you are posting news, do not have your posts read like an article. Subtalk is interactive and it also helps to try to engage the other list members to post.
For example, in your Redbirds post you should have tried something like:
"I was thinking about some alternatives to dumping the Redbirds in the ocean and here's what I came up with:
--list of uses described each with a full sentence--
Can anyone else come up with any more??"
Finally, the other 20% of a joke is originality and most of your jokes have been posted here many times before. I don't blame you for not knowing what has or has not been popular, but without any literary padding in your posts they become just a tierd re-hash.
:-)
This Time at Boro Hall, I was prepared with a crips new $5 bill that I got from the clerk (super nice about it) and the machine short changed me!
Unbelievable! What kind of outfit are they running here. Or is this the standard for TA Bookkeeping? The clerk was great, super friendly and helpfull. But I just have to laugh. Now imagine this situation after they eliminate the fare clerks.
I got this crazy form to fill out and who knows when I'll get my dollar back. Now if the TA would short Changed 5 Million every day....
Chris
I don't know if you got a receipt from the MVM, but if you did, you would call the 1-800-Metrocard number and see how to apply for a refund. This if there was no agent there at all. The receipt is the only evidence of the transaction.
Bill "Newkirk"
"The entire New York City subway system is underground."
Never been outside of Manhattan, eh?
"The entire IND Division was built underground."
Smith-9th viaduct!
"Everything in Manhattan is underground."
Not only the two bridge approaches and 125th/Broadway, but four elevated stations further up the line.
"All IRT lines become elevated when they enter the Bronx."
Nothing is elevated above 149th Street. The 2 and 4 each make two underground stops, the 5 makes three, and the 6 makes seven. The 5 temporarily goes underground at Pelham Parkway.
"Once a line comes outside, it stays outside till its terminal."
Main Street. Jamaica Center.
"All BMT lines that go into Brooklyn go outside sooner or later. All BMT terminals in Brooklyn are elevated."
Bay Ridge on both counts.
"The L serves Manhattan and Brooklyn only."
The L runs along the Brooklyn-Queens border for almost a mile with two of its stops straddling Wyckoff Avenue.
As implied on a T-shirt in the Transit Museum shop: "The A runs from Manhattan to Brooklyn."
Queens: The Forgotten Borough.
"All mainline IRT lines go to the Bronx."
The 3 stays in Manhattan, though it is a short walk over the Harlem River into the Bronx from 145th Street.
"The northern terminal of the A is in the Bronx."
Manhattan's northern boundary is NOT 125th or 145th Street. It's highest numbered street- at least on the island- is 218th.
"The D train was the first IND line to serve the Bronx."
The D wasn't born until 1940, when the 6th Avenue line opened. Prior to that, Bronx IND service was solely provided by the C- or CC.
"The Rockaways are an island and politically part of Brooklyn or suburban Long Island."
Part of Queens, but connected by land to suburban Long Island.
"All IRT and BMT lines and stations were completed and in service before ground was broken for the IND."
The 3 wasn't extended (albeit via yard trackage) to Lenox Terminal until 1968. The Dyre line was acquired for the IRT in 1941.
"All elevated lines were completed before ground was broken for any underground subway line."
The original IRT subway opened for service in 1904. Most modern els opened for service after that, the newest being Pelham (1920), outer Livonia (1922) and outer Flushing (1928).
"The Depression put a stop to all subway construction."
Most of the IND was built during the early to mid 1930s.
"The Redbirds served the IRT for over forty years."
The R26s through 36s only became Redbirds as we know them in the mid-eighties. They were variously brown, dark green, jet black, maroon and 'World's Fair' when delivered. Over the years they also wore the TA-standard gray with wide blue stripe and 'anti-graffiti' white.
"PATH is entirely underground."
For railfans, too ridiculous to contemplate.
"All transfer stations are express stations."
Columbus Circle. Yankee Stadium. 9th/4th Avenue. 74th/Broadway. Bleecker. Franklin/Fulton. 51st/Lex. Canal/Lafayette.
"All original express stations have island platforms only."
Nostrand/Fulton. 86th/Lex. 34th/Penn. Atlantic/Flatbush.
"All local stations have side platforms only."
Grand Army Plaza. Innumerable stops on Canarsie, Crosstown, Jamaica and other lines.
"All terminal stations have island platforms."
Flatbush Avenue. South Ferry.
"The Sea Beach and Brighton are the only lines that run on ground level or in open cuts."
A lot of the Dyre. The West End portal approaches, outer Canarsie and extreme outer Myrtle.
"Queens lines always get all the new equipment. Bronx lines get all the crappy old equipment."
The J, M and RR in the seventies and eighties. The 1, 4, 6 and D in the late eighties.
"You can turn around at any station with a mezzanine."
33rd, 40th and 46th on the 7. Briarwood/Van Wyck.
"It's worth it to ride a packed express over an empty local because the express is ALWAYS faster."
Queens Boulevard or lower Lex in the rush hour.
"It's easy to get a seat outside of rush hour because trains aren't as crowded."
Uhhhh- yeah.
"Riding a local for two stops instead of an express that will skip the one intermediate stop is a fate worth than death, so by all means wait for the express- no matter how many locals go by."
"There's money on the floor right inside the car doors, so you'd better plant your feet right there and not move. Standing in the middle of the car will cause you to lose your job and your mate, or to die a slow, painful death."
"It's perfectly all right to stop at the end plate of an escalator and look around to see where you are."
"The conductor or fellow passenger will INSTANTLY know what you mean and be able to direct you accordingly when you ask if this train goes to 'Broadway', 'Brooklyn', or 'downtown'."
"Exposed dogs are welcome on the subway. Any conductor or police officer who orders a passenger with an exposed dog off the subway is mean, cruel and probably hates animals."
"Preaching on the subway is a valuable public service, because there may be some people who will instantly adopt the religious philosophy of the preacher that happens to be on the same train as them."
"Old Metrocards are NEVER to be discarded in trash containers- only on the floor."
"
South Ferry is argueably not a terminal as trains do not terminate there. The 1/9 only has one terminal, at 242nd St.
"The entire IND Division was built underground."
Smith-9th viaduct!
That viaduct is an aberation, and can be treated as an exception to the rule. Same with Fren Rock on the SEPTA BSS, the BSS is still an all underground system even thought Fern Rock is technically above ground.
That's rather pedantic. The last stop on a line is conventionally referred to as its terminus, or terminal, regardless of the mechanism employed for turning the trains around.
Anyhow, these myths & falsehoods were good for laughs, but the provenance of some of them is bit doubtful. Who ever said, "All terminal stations have island platforms?"
---Choo Choo
For passenger purposes, South Ferry is the south terminal. (What south terminal does the signage give?)
Correct me if I'm mistaken, this is just from personal experience.
Chambers Street is the 1/9's southern terminal.
---Choo Choo
Specifically, when the trains are heading in the Bronx-bound direction.
Actually the original LIRR Mott Ave station was on the viaduct just east of where the current one is now. It looked just like all the other LIRR stations between Wavecrest and Seaside (two side platforms, lots of wood, etc). There's a photo of it in the book "Change in Ozone Park" on page 59. The line was severed at the western end of the original Mott Ave station. The LIRR used the original Mott Ave station as it's terminal for a while after the IND took over the rest of the Rockaway Line. The subway used Wavecrest as it's terminal. Later, the IND built the current Mott Ave station where the line was severed on the subway side, and the LIRR eventually built it grade level station where it is now. Then the portion of the viaduct in between was removed, including the original Mott Ave station.
Oh, please. Does that mean the PATH's Hudson Terminal was mis-named because of the loops? Or Grand Central Terminal what with loops on both levels??
The access doors are open on both ends of every subway car.
All Trains stop at 59th Street.
There is an undercover cop (usually dressed as a homless person) in every car.
The people on your commute are always anonomys strangers. Never would you see the same people day in and day out.
Clear and concise announcements are a common occurence!
If you pee onto the third rail you get electricuted.
All New York Natives know every route and stop by heart.
That's neither a myth nor a falsehood.
BTW, I keep forgetting to buy that book...I never finished reading it. Every time I pass through GCT I either don't have the money or forget to go to the TM annex store and get it.
Like the fare control at 52/Lincoln is IND-style as depicted by NYCSubway's (7)'s section and the 'TS' IND tiles at the very west end of the TS terminal on the 7. Very weird. The 7: The tri-run line.
I checked the 52/Lincoln station section and I stated something incorrectly. It says it has 'IND-style fare control grilles.' Hmm, it also said the original controls were closed.
Dogs must wear pants on the subway?
I've seen some wear skirts. :-D
I've seen some wear skirts. :-D
"The IRT and BMT subways were paid for by the City and given to the private companies to operate."
The idea that the City paid for the new subways (in fact, the expense was split approx. 50/50) and then handed them over to private interests was a populist argument against the private companies that is still repeated today.
14 St-6 Av/7 Av/Canarsie, Broadway-Lafayette/Bleecker, Smith 9 St [to the G]
If they're riding the Rockaway Park shuttle. These people seem like they don't know too much about the subway; they should ride the 4 on weekends for example.
The highest number on the island of Manhattan is West 220th Street (the north terminal of the M100), opposite the entrance to the Allen Pavilion. The very next intersection is 9th Avenue, then (over the Broadway Bridge) West 225th Street.
I have said no such thing. Had I said that, I would have been lying.
That would be strange! The Bronx had always used white on blue.
Jim Fish
This is NOT true. The Post Office considers it part of the Bronx.
Oddly, if you sent me snail mail with Baltimore, MD 21234 or Parkville, MD 21234 on it, it still winds up in my mailbox.
Interesting.
Ed Alfonsin
Posdam, New York
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Also, that statement also neglects the 6th Avenue express tracks, 63rd Street, Archer Avenue, and the Rockaway Lines.
Also to add, I guess this counts even though the terminal is outside, but on the L Canarsie-bound only:
Halsey Street (until that point - all underground)
Wilson Avenue (outside)
Bushwick-Aberdeen (back underground)
Broadway Junction (back outside again, and this time for good)
So Bushwick-Aberdeen does prove the statement false, as for Wilson the line goes outside, but then does go back underground for Bushwick, so the train did not stay outside after going outside the first time.
www.forgotten-ny.com
So why aren't there train tracks on the Verrazano?
The Brooklyn-side approach would have to have been over a mile long in order to make the grade low enough for subways.
It says: "7-Day Unlimited Pass. $21, up from $17. Need 11 rides to make it worth the money, down from 12." Trouble is, Newsday has forgotten the discount available on cash-balance Metrocards.
Under the fare structure expiring Sunday, $17 buys 11 rides plus $.50 change. But purchase a $17 MetroCard, and you actually get an $18.70 balance, thanks to the 10% bonus on all purchases $15 and over. So, a $17 MetroCard actually buys 12 rides plus $.70 change. You therefore need to take 13 rides in a week for the Weekly Unlimited card to be worth the money.
Under the new fare structure, the bonus on cash balance MetroCards is 20% for purchases $10 and higher. So if you buy a $21 MetroCard, you'll get a $25.20 balance, good for 12 rides plus $1.20 in change. The new Weekly Unlimited card, just like the old one, is worth the money if you take at least 13 rides in a week.
Newsday gets the math wrong for the monthly card, too. They say: "$70, up from $63. Need 36 rides to make it worth the money, down from 43." Again, they have forgotten to consider the bonus on cash balance MetroCards.
Under the old fare structure, if you purchase a $63 cash balance MetroCard, you'll get a 10% premium, making your card worth $69.30. That'll buy you 46 rides, plus $.30. Under the new system, if you purchase a $70 cash balance card, you get an $84 balance, worth 42 rides. So the break-even point of the monthly cards goes from 47 rides to 42, not 43 to 36.
Newsday is right about the one-day unlimited pass, though. Under the new system, you'll need to take 4 rides for the $7 price to be worth the money, up from 3 rides.
I do agree that if you always buy your MetroCards in $10 increments, then the break-even point for the Fun Pass is between 4-5 rides, not 3-4. However, I think the Newsday article's statement on Fun Passes is defensible, because it compares the two options you have for spending $7 at one time. It is not really defensible in the other two cases.
Therefore they say subway fares are going up 33%, when in fact for any kind of moderate usage (other than the Fun Pass) it's only going up 22% or less.
The Fun Pass increase is 75%. That's the outrageous one. Well, IMO, the 30-day 11% increase is also outrageous, as is the B&T 17%. They couldn't all be kept within the 20-30% range?
Actually, I guess I'm in that category too. Whenever I considered the value of an unlimited card I always compared it to the list price of the individual rides instead of the actual discounted price. Now I see that with an old $4 Fun Pass I was only saving eight cents instead of fifty cents on three rides. When I file my expense sheet I always use the list price just because it's slightly easier. I'm sure my boss doesn't care though-- I often ask for $3 for a round-trip to Manhattan instead of the $9.50 off-peak or $14.50 peak that I could be spending.
But I still like the feeling of freedom on an unlimited card. For example, on an unlimited card I can take the A to Far Rockaway and then take the N31/32 to the N4 or even the N36 instead of being locked into Jamaica Center and the N4. I could also take the F to 179 St and switch to the N6 and later the N16 or N37 (which put me slightly closer to home). I can also switch between subways on an unlimited card and I can even walk through long passageways within fare control if it's pouring rain. Putting a dollar value on that sort of thing is hard to do.
I've never bought a PPR over $15, but my impression is that if you bought a PPR for $63, you would get a $1.50 bonus for every $15 that you spent. Therefore, the balance on the card would become $63 + (4x$1.50) = $69.00. Am I wrong?
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
Either way, us T/O's still log 6+ hours of cab time per day.
A few weeks ago, I was at the 7-11 at Middletown Rd., complaining about something to another T/O. He was telling me that I have no rights because I am "from the street". Then, a customer at 7-11 asked me if there were going to be any service changes that weekend. He told me that he was going to Brooklyn for Easter, and was hoping to avoid the usual hassles. I laughed and warned him that there would be split service on the 6 line, and that he should allow himself an extra 30 minutes in each direction. He sighed, looked at his girlfriend, and the conversation ended there.
Two days later, I'm standing at 125 waiting for a friend who was going to give me a ride home. A n/b 6(from BB-125) had just detrained, and I was immediately bombarded with questions by anxious and confused customers. Among them was the guy and girl I met at 7-11 on Middletown Rd. We recognized each other, and he yelled, "You! It's you! You warned me. You were right"! "This is hell". I really feel for Bronx passengers. There is always some kind of major GO, forcing them to add more time to an already long commute.
For instance, the 125 St Lexington Avenue station is a block away from the 125 St Metro North station on Park Ave. One of the subway's most important missions is to provide connections to commuter rail, and yet these two facilities are a block away out-of-doors. I'm not sure which facility was built first, but either someone blew it, or politics interfered with what would otherwise have been obvious--to provide an indoors connection between the two. The SAS, as now designed, is supposed to finally rectify this error.
I think this is the worst station-placement mistake in the system. Whichever station was built second (125/Lex or 125/MNR) should have been closer to the other. Anyone have a better example?
DON'T EVEN think about tampering with my Brighton line, no way buddy. Beverly road on the Brighton line will be remembered for two things, the correct spelling of the street name (the IRT station a mile away has the incorrect spelling on the 1920 tiles, BeverlEy) and some of the greatest photo run-bys you can take of all trains that pass that curve at the north end of the station.
I would! I'm sick of the Brighton Line. If I moved, I'd probably like it again, but not now!
My favorite route to CI is the Belt Parkway.
You have that backwards; the IRT station omits the E (as does the DOT on the street signs for the section east of Holy Cross Cemetary, IIRC). The correct spelling is Beverley.
Beverl(e)y makes a slight jog at Flatbush. Is it possible that the two roads have differently spelled names?
From what I've heard, it was due to pressure by real estate interests.
R-32
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
I hated the old system. Some station agents made you fill out the back. 3 rides anywhere is a better restriction than unlimited rides boarding only at two stations. And you had to wait in line with all the people buying their single tokens. Maybe it was better when you could just flash your pass and walk through the slam gate, but by the later years all stations had them locked and you needed to be buzzed through a turnstile. Some station agents had the brain capacity to see your pass and press the button without it interrupting their other work, others were less endowed.
Would they then offer a free 24/7 bus making a continuous loop along Junius, New Lots, Van Sinderen and Blake for displaced pedestrians?
If so, I can agree.
I don't thnk anyone blew it at 125th St.
The railroad was at 125th St/Park Av for decades before the Lexington Avenue subway line was opened in 1918. The railroad dates back to 1831.
You are forgetting that the railroad and the right of way was owned by The New York Central Railroad not NY City. I am sure there would have been signficant legal issues involved between the NYC, the IRT and the City of NY.
Besides very few people wanted to get off at 125th St to get the Railroad because not all of the trains stopped there. Only the local trains. Long Distance trains would bypass the station which is why people always went to (and still go to) Grand Central. As a result, the passenger volume at 125th/Park Av would never be enough to justify a physical connection.
I have to admit before I retired I wished the "J" Station at Bway Junction was closer to the ENY LIRR Station. I worked at the 81Pct a block away from the Gates Av Station (now that I'm retired I could say that here!) when I did a day tour I took the train. It was a gamble as to whether taking the Canarsie Line one stop to Atlantic or walking was the better choice. Especially if you only had a few minutes to make your train. Sometimes if I was really lazy I would just stay on the "J" to Sutphin.
Which reminds me of a guy I know who lives near Yankee Stadium. He used to visit a friend who lived in Hartsdale, and he would take the # 4 down to Grand Central to get his Metro-North train, instead of taking the D train up to Fordham Rd. Granted, you have a bit of a walk from the Concourse over to the station, but this guy was "able-bodied" enough to handle it.
It just drives me crazy to go South when I want to end up going North!
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
1. 42 St
2. 125 St
3. Gun Hill Road
4. 233 St
5. 241 St(in some cases
Locations 3, 4, and 5 only have connections to a tiny fraction of MNRR trains, namely the Mt Vernon locals and White Plains ultra-locals. No connection to the Hudson or NH lines at all, or to most
Harlem line trains.
In some case from the #5 line ONLY if you are on the Thru-Express train to East 238th st from 4:30 PM to 6:45 PM weekdays only. Otherwise from the main-line of the #5 train it's a long walk for you or you will have to use the Bx 28 (Gun Hill) or Bx 16 (Dyre Ave) buses to get to Metro-North.
You are giving it too much credit, it doesn't even run for 2 hours, that is one of the thing the MTA should really expand on <5> service
The Fulton Street line has two express stations between Bwy-ENY and Downtown Brooklyn; it should have none. But the stop closest to Brooklyn's "Grand Central" at Atlantic and Flatbush is a local stop, and a distance away to boot.
Fortunately, they located Queens Plaza under Queensboro Plaza, so Queens is not as bad off.
Also, they need a direct connection between the E and LIAR at Jamacia.
As for the Penn kids, they've got like 3 subway surface stops on their campus, the LUCY(I have yet to see a Drexel student use those POS), the 21, 30, 40, and 42 busses.
Theres nothing unusual about the spacing of the MFL stations starting at 34th st, it's 6 blocks to 40th st, another 6 to 46th, and then 6 more the 52nd, after that it shortens to 4 for 56th. It wraps up with 7 blocks to 63rd, some amount (not much) to Millbourne, and just a little ways from there to 69th St. You cannot have a stop at 33rd or 32nd, becuase the subway-surface ramps are there, plus theres a Sub-Surface stop at 33rd st already, you can get off at 30th and transfer. It wouldn't make much sense to have a stop at 36th or 37th, becuase it'd be only 3 and a half blocks to the next stop, which would be like the stops every two blocks on the MFL in center city, that is the WORST section of track I've ever ridden! What we need is local bus service on Market west of 34th St (where the 30 turns south, leaving Market busless until the 31 rejoins it down the line) in a role similar to the C bus over Broad St. A trolley would be nicer, with all the LUCY route made part of it, but that ain't gonna happen...
This is under construction. It is part of the Airtrain-related desecration.
Beyond that, the LIRR station is only open for business in rush hour. It actually isn't surprising that 52nd Street (and others) have more customers.
The Court street IND station was evidently not a bright idea, though not because of the location.
There's really no good excuse why A-C and G don't have stations as part of Atlantic-Pacific-Flatbush LIRR.
I am not sure how I would have done it. In the very least, I would have put the Atlantic Avenue Brighton station under the IRT. I would also have considered a very different Dekalb, perhaps combined with Nevins, as the IRT/BMT transfer point. The again, relocating the Fulton IND for a connection to the LIRR is also desirable. We could have run it under Atlantic instead of Schermerhorn with a Broadway-Nassau-type station at the LIRR. And, then put a BMT Borough Hall station between Jay Street and the IRT, with a connection there.
Or just enhance the E.N.Y. connection. Anyway, it's enough with East New York being an assumed "no-mans-land". We ain't got time for that crap nowadays, and the real estate is too central and well served by rail to be left in the relatively abandoned state that it is. I think in ten years we won't recognize the place.
I kind of like the disconnected nature of the subway routings in the Downtown Brooklyn area anyway. I think that when they were built the area was such a strong regional draw that the main point was to get into the core zone. Probably similar to how it doesn't matter where you park in the lots surrounding a shopping mall. Get to the lot and zero in from there.
It's also very handy sometimes to have routes not be physically connected to each other but headed in the same general direction. Downtown is good that way.
But surely the MTA would put a new entrance at the south end, and then rename the station to go with the new entrance!
Hi,
I'm new at Subtalk, but to answer your question, the 125th St. Metro North station is older; many years over. First of all, the present station is just over 100 years old whereas the Lex. was built in 1908. Secondly, the whole Park Av. deal at that point used to be a cut (two tracks) prior to that. Then (apparently) they toyed with putting the station underground but that was aborted. This accounts for the current storage 'basement' that exists beneath what we see above the street. A little known fact. When You remember the whole dog-and-pony show was originally a horse - drawn operation (New York and Harlem R.R.), this paints a bigger picture.
Also, who's to say that it was economical to swerve the Lex over to Park Av. just to grab some New York Central passengers - even in those days. The Lex. already did one S-turn transition further south, why should it perform another? Right at GCT in fact! So; in fact, it had to avoid the terminal ( with its five levels of tracks) and the N.Y.C. tunnels altogether when heading north from that point. The route north was added in about 1908 as part of the Dual Contracts, even though the original route takes Park South, after coming from Bway. on what are now the shuttle tracks.
This reminds me of a third point yet. If remember anything abouth the architecture at 125th St., those tracks start setting up for the Bronx immediately upon exiting the station. In fact there isn't much left of Lexington after 125th St. so they're forced to cross the river. Hope this clears everything up. Nice to meet everyone.
R-32
-- Ed Sachs
What experiences have you had with customers paying with pennies?
There is a "discussion" over on Strappies about someone saying that he is going to protest the fare hike by paying his bus fare completely in pennies.
We all know the "legal tender" issue but I want to get the view from within.
Personally if someone HAS to give me a baggie full of pennies, I HAVE to count them. Not that I don't trust their assurtations that the amount is all there. It's is just a matter of ensuring that "accidently" there are no Canadian pennies in it. Of course the customer would have to explain to the people behind him that the line is going to be delayed a moment while pennies are being counted. Maybe people will be annoyed at this person holding up the line.
and what about more than 2 rides worth? are you forbidden to take it?
Because it is rush hour and there are other customers who have to go to work.
(Just to let you know, I will never do this to any of you station attendents.)
Bryanh
If you charge 1 Canadian penny and get an American one, you were paid extra (you got 1.4 cents). If you charge 1 American penny and get a canadian penny, you were underpaid (you only got 0.7 cents).
Basically the MTA doesn't want to get ripped off. Can you blame them?
Just out of curiosity, do most places in New York City accept Canadian currency at the normal exchange rate? Like for example where I work there's a key on the cash registers for American currency... we hit that instead of "cash" when someone pays with American money.
Everyone is expected to pay in US$ or by credit or debit card where accepted.
Only countries with second-rate currency allow you to use foreign currencies deep inside their borders.
I never said Canada was a second-rate country, I said it has a second-rate currency. I think we should unify the two currencies a la the Euro, this way they will have a first-rate currency (the NAD: North American Dollar).
I expect that Canada and the US will have seperate currencies for a long time to come though, because whenever something controversial comes up our government does what it does best... nothing.
Ah maybe it's for the best... I like our multicoloured currency anyways :-)
Oddly, our Treasury Department is actually looking at another redesign of our currency, with different colors for different denominations. It would also have more anti-counterfeit provisions.
Treasury has blown, however, the dollar coin not once, but twice. The basic problem is that they won't stop printing and issuing the dollar bill, and people are lothe to give up the familiar, so the coin never gets into general circulation. There are two in issue, the original Susan B. Anthony coin, which looks too much like a quarter, and the current Golden dollar.
The Light Rail and Subway ticket machines do issue them as change, but aside from the MTA here, not all the banks even carry them.
All the "colorized coins" Take your pick, they're all $29.95 regardless of the actual value.
No thank you.
As I mentioned, in Baltimore the major dispenser of dollar coins is the Maryland Transit Adminsitration, which is the major user of dollar coins in the Richmond Federal Reserve District. Stick a $5.00 bill in a light rail ticket machine for a single ride (currently $1.35, rising to $1.60 July 1) and your change will be 3 dollar coins plus quarters and nickels. Buy a Day Pass and you'll get 2 dollar coins as change.
Three of the major banks here, including Bank America, First Union and Provident don't even carry them.
Dan, isn't that more like 62 exchanges (transactions)? I think the average life is more like 18 months. Coins in general, on the other hand, have an average lifespan in excess of 20 years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There's the rub. It doesn't matter what the customer thinks of dollar coins. All that matters is what businesses think, since they are to be received in change. We never get them.
Mass transit would be a major beneficiary of widespread use of dollar coins. In addition to Metrocard, they could be used on the bus.
Personally, I think the government should just bite the bullet and get rid of the penny, nickel, and quarter. A dime is worth what a penny was worth 50 years ago, a dollar coin is the equivalent of a 1950 dime. Add in a 50 cent piece to replace the nickel, and change would have value again.
Pennies tend to build up in the poceket or purse. They either wind up in drawers around the house, or if you are especially viligant, you roll them and deposit them in the bank. We do, and you would be surprised how much rolled coins mount up over a short time.
It is typical of the TA to want to be accomodating to a selective profile of rider and whsh all the other rider would just go away.
Once again the TAs attitude is revaling of their contempt for a large portion of their ridership.
The dollar coin was introduced in 1987 as a replacement for the dollar bill, which was swiftly withdrawn. The two dollar coin replaced the two dollar bill in 1996. While we in the US have never embraced the $2 bill, Canadians used theirs heavily, so introducing the $2 coin made sense. As I understand it a CDN $5 coin was also planned for introduction in 2000, but has been indefinitely postponed.
The dollar coin would catch on very quickly in this country if the dollar bill were withdrawn from circulation as it should be. While I'm not particularly fond of the front of the current dollar coin (the eagle on the back is beautiful, though) it is at least distinct from our other coinage and should gain rapid acceptance when the $1 bill is retired.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
there IS a 50 cent piece, the half dollar, also not used much, although STILL made
Please, we all know Canada is America Junior... :-)
Je t'AIME Les Canadiens! Les Torontotiques, aussi. Heh. If any "Uh-mericans" want to purchase a copy of "Talking to Americans" as provided by CBC featuring RICK MERCER, which DEMONSTRATES why our Northern brethren and sisteren are a "bit concerned" about us, send me an email ... It'll cost for tape and time to dub it on company property, but "Talking to Americans" should scare the QWAP out of us as to how *WE* talked to Canadians. :-\
And yeah, Shrub and others made IDIOTS of themselves too, ON CAMERA. WITH audio. :(
Trust me here - you wouldn't BELIEVE how forgiving of us our neighbors to the north have PROVEN themselves overWHELMINGLY to still talk to us AT ALL ... Is it worth $20 for a dub? I might actually make it available to those who DON'T have CBC as a local TV station. :)
You think so, eh? I happen to know they import Cuban cigars which makes them an imminent threat to the security of the U.S. :-)
Tom
Well we should be ready to take action against countries that trade with the Cuban dictator. It's rumored that he is so evil that he even leases space on his island to a foreign country to squirrel away prisoners brought from across the globe to be imprisoned for years without contact with the outside world or charges being filed. Thank God none of our allies, who believe in human rights, would stoop so low. :-)
Tom
Every time I've been visiting and tendered US currency, the change came back in Canadian currency/coins with no exchange value. Give the clerk a US $20 for a 6 dollar purchase, get $14.00 CDN in change.
The only place I ever got exchange value was at the casinos, which are government run.
I usually pick up a decent amount of Canadian currency (at the offical exchange rate) at my friendly local bank here in Baltimore.
Which parts of Canada have you visited? The reason I ask is that I live in Ottawa and have only really done this here. It could just be that because Ottawa is the nation's capital and we get both a lot of foreign tourists and residents from other countries, the establishments around the city are more open to accepting foreign currency.
So with that I guess I'll change my statement to say in *Ottawa* you can usually get your currency exchanged at the exchange rate, but not necessarily in the rest of Canada... I assumed that if they do it in Ottawa they must do it in the rest of Canada too. I'll have to test this theory after I move to Toronto this summer :-)
Got to spend two weeks with the TCC's Chief Instructor and the School of Instruction in the early 70's. Road and operated school cars as a visitor from Baltimore.It was nice to be accepted as a fellow professional.
We did get our change in U.S. currency while at a store in Canada when we paid them in American dollars. They have a "converting" mechanism on their cash registers which converts the Canadian to American currency.
Here is the updated information on the transit project. Chapter 5--part 1 is now complete, and I'm still finishing up Chapter 4, with only some additional information left to add. The targeted day that I will get an opportunity to email Chapters one, two and the Introduction out will be on May 13 and May 14, so be sure to check your inbox on those two days. Chapter 3 will follow on May 16 and May 17. I will have to get back to you on the dates for mailing out Chapters 4 and 5.
Also I've included here, the summary of the project by chapter:
General Introduction
This section covers my fascination with trains, how it evolved and how it led to the ambitious transit project
Chapter 1: Introduction to the Transit Project
This chapter will describe the focus of the project itself. It points out the goal of providing more subway coverage for the city as well as providing service to the suburbs. There are descriptions of current problems the current subway system faces and possible solutions that are implemented in the alternate reality of the transit project.
Chapter 2: Expasnion of the Current Routes
This chapter focuses on the extension of the current routes in both the A and B Divisions of the current system, which are all affected in some way by the larger system that is presented here. The chapter also describes the use and need of additional route markers and lines which were discontinued that continue to play a role in transit operation. Also included are ROW's of selected rail lines that now feature subway routings.
Chapter 2 was the result of three original documents that I've produced for last year's railfan audience that has been merged together into one document.
Chapter 3: Trunk Lines
This chapter gets into the heart of the project, by listing all the trunk lines of this much larger alternate subway system. This is chapter is one of the longer chapters in the project and one of the original documents I have produced for last year's group of railfans. Every line and possible connection is included, covering all five boroughs, and surburban counties in New York, New Jersey and Connecticut.This chapter includes an Appendix, which is also of extended length covering details of information in regard to the trunk lines. Many interesting aspects of transit operation are found in the Chapter 3 Appendix, which is divided into five smaller appendices. A comprehensive listing of river tunnels, shuttle routes, track connections between the A and B Divsions as well as to commuter and freight trackeage and other intriguing things are found in the Appendix. Note that any remaining general transit information is included in Appendix A at the end of the project. (see below) Chapter 3 now includes a introduction in regard to the context of the document.
This appendix, which was another original document for last year's railfan audience will be mailed with Chapter 3.
Chapter 4: The Route Markers and Routing Information
This chapter lists all the route markers that are used in the transit project and markers not used. Following the table of route markers are routes themselves, with listings of terminals, trunk lines, operation times, rolling stock each route uses and the yards each route uses.
Chapter 5: Rolling Stock, Yards and Equipment--Part 1, 2 and 3
Chapter 5 also delves into the heart of the project by providing a comprehensive lists of rolling stock used in the transit project. This Chapter primarily consists of tables that lists all the cars used and that are in service. Each car class has been expanded to at least twice its size. This chapter is one of the longest in the project, and because I found that composing this all this information added up over time, the chapter is divided into three parts. The first part is completed, the other two I'm still working on while I'm completing Chapter 4. The first part of this chapter lists all the cars--real and fictional--and includes a table of experimental cars. The second part goes into detail about all the cars classes, providing a fictional context of their time on the rails. The third part covers retired cars (real and ficitional) beginning with the IND R1 cars and provides a fictional context of their time on the rails. What you may find when reading this chapter is the overwhelming number of cars used, but I've got around the capacity issues somewhat by introducing a system of car transference from one yard to another--which will all be explained in this chapter. As I'm certain every railfan has a favorite car--real or fictional--you will be sure to find it in this chapter.
Subway yards are listed in this chapter also, in the third part, and there are a lot of them.
Like Chapter 3, this chapter also features a brief introduction and an Appendix at the end. The Chapter 5 Appendix covers prewar cars listed for both the IRT and BMT and additional general information about rolling stock that wasn't covered in the main chapter.
Chapter 6: Station Design and Architecture
This chapter covers some intriguing designs of underground station design. Some elevated and grade/cut/embankment stations are covered too. Also covered are a more detailed expansion of the IND color coded station tile system and more creative designs on the moaics motifs and wall signs on the IRT and BMT.
Chapter 7: A Fictional History of the New York City
(later Metro Area) Subway System
This chapter, aslo covers the heart of the project and supports one of the main points of the project: subway development in New York under different circumstances, different attitudes, a different spin on politics, finances and social concerns. Chapter 7 will be entirely in a fictional context using realistic facts and events for support and as a foundation to illustrate transit development in another reality.
Chapter 8: Commuter Rail and Light Rail--Further Development and Expansion of the LIRR, Metro North, NJ Transit and the new Light Rail System
Though the prime objective of this project is the subway, the project does not leave out commuter rail. As part of mass transit system, I felt it was integral to include further development of the three commuter rail systems in the Metro Area to supplement subway expansion to the suburbs in the form of more transfers and more inter-regional traveling options. The inclusion of commuter rail in the project also provides a single large mass transit entity consisting of subway and commuter rail designed to cover the entire New York City Metropolitan Area within a 75 mile radius. It is set up so that the subways serve inner zone areas (NYC, neighboring cities in Westcheter, and New Jersey and the immediate suburbs outside these regions) and commuter rail serves the inner and outer zones (outer zones being distant suburbs and more remote areas) The inclusion of the light rail system is simply the expansion of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail System, which is expanded entirely to reach many regions--first and foremost developed to the system that NJ Transit is working towards--see the NJ Transit site for all the planned extensions of the light rail system--and providing an additional link between NY and NJ via original routings.
Chapter 9: Expanded New York City Subway System--smaller versions
This chapter provides other additional scenarios of the subway expansion in the city. I'm not sure yet of how many scenarios I'm going to include in this chapter, but there will be two included, which I can tell you right now.
(1) The first scenario is simply an extension of the current system using only past proposals the MTA, the TA and the Board of Transportation has made. Notably included is the full development of the IND Second System--both 1929 and 1939 plans. This system is confined within the borders of the city and except of one route to Jersey City, offers no extensions to the suburbs.
(2) The second scenario is an expansion of the first, but a scaled down version of the main scenario that this project fouces on. It is simply a modest expansion of subway service into Nassau, Westchester and New Jersey, covering only the immdediate Metropolitan Area.
Appendix A: Miscellaneous Items regarding Transit Operations
This Appendix describes/lists information that wasn't covered in the Chapter 3 Appendix or in Chatpers 7 or 8.
Appendix B: ???
This is a planned second appendix to this project, but I'm not sure what its contents would be yet.
(1) Question and Answer section
This section focuses on questions you may have about stuff that you may not be clear on, or have in the back of your mind, that I've thought of ahead of time. This document is half completed, and since the questions covered thus far are only about the first five chapters, I may likely send the first half of this document after Chapter 5, to see if it answers any questions that you may have.
(2) Feedback--What Do You Think? Comments, Suggestions, etc.
This section is simply a feedback section where you can freely comment only any aspect of transit operations of this project. It lists various questions of what you think about the material you read. The interesting part of this section is that it includes questions that lists scenarios where you decide how you would best handle the situation or event.
I'm still working on this document as well, but like the Question and Answer document, I'm thinking of dividing it into two parts and mail the first part to you after Chapter 5.
Chapters 6 to 9 I haven't started yet, but I will be working on them through the summer. I hope to have the remainder of the text portion of this project completed by mid-October.
Peace,
ANDEE
"I'm a cowgirl from Canarsie
And I ride the BMT
It's a subway, not a horse
But if you rode it you'd agree
That it's a bucking bronco
And it's better than TV
The shoot-um-ups are real
And the side shows all are free"
There are more in the way of lyrics, but I cannot remember all of the words. I saw a live theatrical production of N3 last year, here in PA, but this particular number was not included. All three of the musicals are very entertaining. The nun from Brooklyn is in all three and is named Sister Robert Anne. I think SubTalkers would get a kick out of this musical, if only for this one number.
Based on his postings, I'd say he defies all attempts at categorization :)
You mean heypaul is foam free ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Given his attitude I would not be surprised if he had set him on fire on several non-consecuitive occasions.
If Train Dude has a problem with a rail buff on TA property, Train Dude has to act as per his professional responsibilities. That Subtalker has no special privileges because he and Train Dude happen to post on the same Internet board. SoTrain Dude can be friendly to him personally (or not) and would then still be entitled to eject that person from TA property or a train if the Subtalker is breaking the rules.
I think you answered your own question.
No, I didn't - and that's what makes the question so puzzling. Train Dude's always been highly knowledgeable, and (except with respect to Heypaul) quite reasonable in his opinions and comments. Now, however, he's gotten totally nasty and sarcastic, basically a 100% all-around schmuck. Something's got to be going on in his life.
What message board have you been on? His views are extreme and he treats people with absolute contempt and condesention with little or no provocation. TD has always been viewed as you describe by a sizable segment of the SubTalk community, especially for those SubTalkers who worked for him or have run into him while on duty.
Of course most of the real TD dirt is discussed off the board.
What message board have you been on? His views are extreme and he treats people with absolute contempt and condesention with little or no provocation. TD has always been viewed as you describe by a sizable segment of the SubTalk community, especially for those SubTalkers who worked for him or have run into him while on duty.
I wouldn't go quite so far. Train Dude has never suffered fools willingly, that's for sure; if someone posts something that's stupid or ill-informed, Train Dude won't hesitate to point that out in no uncertain terms. That's one thing. With this security paranoia, and his attitudes toward railfans, however, he's really gone too far. There's a line between being stern and being obnoxious, and he's crossed it.
I don't work for him and have never met him on duty or otherwise, so I can't comment on that aspect of his behavoir.
But he has also posted a lot about religious and ethnic minorities; about welfare; about other themes where he has openly expressed hatred and prejudice and expected other Subtalkers to accept those posts as evidence of his supposed patriotism. This also describes some of his offline behavior. He often sees criticism as "personal attacks" when it is not, and his ostensible intolerance for nonsense does resemble a thin skin covering a huge ego.
I'm not saying these things because I hate the man; I do not respect some of his writing. The analogy is being able to respect a drunkard without respecting his drinking.
I think he's a colorful and knowledgable presence on this board. I have no problem with that. As to his personal circumstances, not many of us know enough about that to know if even specuulation is justified, so I'm leaving that alone.
As an understanding colleague to my rantings on about the Sea Beach, he has been more than a patient supporter even when I go over the line sometimes. This isn't meant to cast any negative thoughts about any of the rest of you but TD stands tall with me.
Someone stole his MTH trains ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Consider this: pictures, diagrams, schematics, maps or anything else...would anyone, despite innocent pursuance of their hobby, want to post or release anything that places passengers and system in jeopardy? The same goes for airports/shopping malls/subway stations/railroad stations/libraries/anything the public congregates in. Reuters letter instructs us to tell you, buffs and transit enthusiasts, to think first before any action that could be used to create harm in the future. TD has his abrupt way of expression but he is correct in reflecting current policy CI Peter
Dispite my personal dislike for that one subtalker, Doug, on the rare occasions when he's actually posted something transit related, I either ignored him or I responded with a legitimate comment or fact. It's only when he posts his idiotic, non-transit related clap-trap, that I take a shot at him. Besides, Doug, he's a big boy and i'm sure he can defend himsef when he feels the need.
His most recent post was about finding a subway car where the number 8 had been vandalized so that it appeared to be a 3. He stated that he was 'fooled' twice by the car. I stated that the posting was thrilling or words to that extent. If you think that's going for the jugular, Doug, then you need to lighten up.
Reuters letter instructs us to tell you, buffs and transit enthusiasts, to think first before any action that could be used to create harm in the future.
Well since we have given up so many civil liberities, imprisoned so many people and spent so much money we have to assume that the homeland is now secure and anything we could do could not possibly cause any harm. I mean he we gave up all these things and didn't even make ourselves secure from attack that would be just nutty.
Yes, I am a railfan. But yes, I also resent the selfish attitude expressed by many railfans who put their own desire above the legitimate needs and concerns of the railroad. Apparently many of you have forgotten how one of the subtalk family put his selfish desires above the rules and was arrested (although not charged) and possibly ruined the career of a transit employee. You forget how he was also later (having learned nothing from the previous experence) was ejected from two LIRR trains on successive days.
Growing up in Glen Oaks, Queens, we used to play stickball alot. To the best of my knowledge, there was never a law agains stickball but when people complained, the officers from the 111th Pct would tell us to move on. There was never any BS about our rights. We moved.
What really pisses me off, Peter is yours and other subtalkers who feel that my supposed employment status should be a factor of mitigation or aggrivation in what I post. When I first came to subtalk, I came as a railfan. I thought that my employment status might add some insight as to the day to day happenings but I didn't come here as an official representative of any organization. The idea that I should not get upset or feel strongly about a topic because of my employment status is simply rediculous.
I've taken strong positions before on other topics, both rail and non-rail related and each time - this same issue has been raised and frankly, Peter, I'm really tired of it. I've never heard anyone say that, "as a person in the banking industry you should be more temporate." or "As a police officer you should not express a personal opinion here".
Now as for my anti-photography postings - they are consistent with my personal feelings only. They are not meant to be a reflection of MTA policy although the MTA policy is for employees to report all such photography and have police investigate the perpetrators. I'm simply tired of pseudo-intellectual railfans who put themselves above the legal authority of the transit agencies that do set policy on their property. Railfans should not view themselves as invitred guests on rail property. Their interest and knowledge conveys no such rights. If this is too anti-railfan for you or others on subtalk - tough. Ignore me!
Finally, As for those who have linked my personal distaste for railfans who forget that they are not entitled to free reign on rail property with my annimosity for a particular subtalker, there is no linkage. Again, my personal feelings. Just like it was his and another subtalker's personal feelings when they were doing tag-team attacks against me with their idiotic posts about Amos and Andy. I don't recall anyone calling him or his hand-puppet for their nightly attacks.
There are railfans and there are railfans. Some of them have been known to go beyond the limits, for instance entering non-public areas or using flash attachments. Unfortunately, you seem to be lumping ALL railfans into that category, ignoring the fact that many (most?) of them play by the rules. And that's just plain wrong.
I always thought you were from Brooklyn.
Anyway, for those of you who don't know, I am a T/O in the A division, and work near TrainDude's work location. I've tried to meet him twice, but he was not around as we work different shifts. But I'm going to try to meet him within the next few weeks.
Come on, Steve -- all of that was OVER A YEAR AGO!
And where was your all rightous indignation then, Doug?
What TD hasn't said is where and how the LIRR has changed its official policy, and what they have done to inform the public that their policy has changed. No one else has heard of this.
In this case, the rule is more than a rule: it's a state law. Larry Reuter couldn't simply decide to ban photography on the subway; he'd first have to persuade the state legislature.
Are you sure? I really don't know, and the details are probably in an earlier posting somewhere, but usualy things like codes of behavior are just administrative regulations.
Nevertheless, I also am not convinced that the LIRR rules have changed. If nothing else, if they don't announce them, the rules are of dubious legality. After all, the TBTA very clearly says "no photography" at various places.
Apparently, the TBTA's photography ban was in place long before 9/11; it just wasn't enforced.
I think your position on railfan photography is a reasonable one - though I also think it is in the MTA's best interest to be tolerant and even gracious to railbuffs who take pictures.
You're entitled to be as passionate as the next guy or gal, and express it. Why not?
Having said that, I (and others) strongly criticized your posts when they expressed religious and ethnic hatred (esp. when masquerading as patriotism, which it isn't); you were similarly criticized over the same issue regarding emails. You fired the first shots there, and earned the response you got.
As far as I'm concerned, you're welcome here.
Dude's been here longer than I have, and by quite a good amount of time. I've chuckled many times at some of his comments, my favorite STILL being "when you walk down the street, do you leave sparks behind as your knuckles drag on the sidewalk?" TRUE New Yorker in those words.
It's not my place to explain Train Dude, but I *do* have a feeling as to a piece of it given some emails I've received in the past from other folks working on the MTA Paturkey farm who are no longer EMAILING either owing to the "fear factor" the MTA is imposing on their employees lately.
I always noted that Dude's purpose in posting in the past was to CORRECT really bad and innacurate technical information, and to explain why various things were what they were and why. Now, in the ever-enclosing fear and paranoia campaign of our leaders, it's becoming more and more of a thought crime to detail ANYTHING. Even though all the information's already out there in the hands of potential terrorists, the close the barn doors after the horses have already gone is paramount in management's mindset.
Memo after memo about not discussing ANYTHING in public has gone around, employees are being monitored for their activities not only at WORK but at HOME as well to ensure that official state secrets are only revealed elsewhere. So here's someone who has always been HIGHLY beneficial to us in the past not being allowed to dish details and corrections like before, possibly becoming more and more frustrated in not being able to settle various misstatements and errors in fact owing to this ridiculous "too late" sweeping policy, and then having to come here and read all sorts of silliness.
In the national paranoia which is being beaten into us with a never ending rampup in order to ENSURE that we cower in fear and vote "properly" in 2004 for our "leader", we're all the losers here as far as being able to talk the nitty gritty that made this place a lot of fun.
As MTA management sees "objectionable thought" here and whips everyone who knows what a modem is at work, I can only imagine that Train Dude's taken a good amount of guff for even visiting here. I'm sure folks have noticed how LITTLE we hear from train crews and other specialists with juicy details on subways, ALL of this a direct result of paranoia enforcement at their jobs. Damned shame this is ...
But I'd be willing to bet that he's incredibly frustrated at not being able to have the simple pleasures this board once represented. I've heard this from numerous OTHER people who I used to chat with frequently in the past prior to the latest rampup of fear at the MTA.
Maybe I'm wrong here, but I can only suggest that if the guy bothers ya, don't read him ... and bear in mind that as a nation, we're going to hell in a handbasket under the current regime of bashing one another and beating up on those who don't tow the line ... I for one am really getting tired of all the negativity, shouting down of others and "my way or the highway" attitudes ... then again, these are Limbaugh times. What the terrorists couldn't do to us, we're doing to OURSELVES. :(
I feel for both T.D. and for all of us. I, for one refuse to submit to the claptrap coming out of the Admsissitration of Homeland (Paul G., where are you when we really need you) inSecurity and the house at 1600.
I didn't vote for him, I still feel that somethings not right with the 2000 election, but we are stuck with him. (BTW, given the history between 2000 and today, I'm not sure Al could have done any better over all, but who knows.) We can either give in to the bedsheets and adult Depends mentality, or live up to the fact that life is not secure. Ever.
I'm not changing my life a lot. I happen to live in a city that's pretty high on the murder count, year in and year out. Do I lock my doors? You betcha. Do I stop doing what brings me happiness in my life?
HELL NO!!!!!!!!
Now I will get off the political bus and get back to talking about arnines, LoV's, HiVs', flivers, and what have you as long as it's on flanged wheels.
And I sit in wonderment how we were able to live through the cold war with the threat of thousands of unannounced mushroom clouds surrounding us WITHOUT a change in color on the flagpole to warn us at ANY MOMENT. Somehow it's OK to be a chickensheet NOW. Then again, back during the cold war we had LEADERS, not these chickensheets ... agggh. I shaddup. :(
It's called courage - a basic human characteristic that people used to have, but which today is as scarce as hen's teeth (to continue with the chicken theme). World War II and the Cold War were the sort of things that could have scared the bejesus out of Americans, but people grit their teeth and got through. The 9/11 attacks, however, turned everyone into a pathetic bunch of cowards. Maybe we'd gotten too soft and couldn't take the shock to our systems. Whatever the case, it's pathetic.
Wish I knew the sliders in various pieces of equipment - alas, I had to earn a living and KNOW what I actually got paid to know, "television equipment" and politics ... at least there was a SCHEMATIC that was TRUTHFUL in ELECTRONICS. Even the PUNDITS can't show me a schematic that works for LAWGIVERS. :)
But it's a DAMNED shame that America has gone for the whole "you're gonna DIE unless you let the GOP protect you." ... I remember when the GOP ***CUT THE QWAP*** out of anti-terrorist agencies" (I was *INVOLVED* in it, and got cut loose due to tax-cut budget cuts) while Bubba was Predident ... "contract *ON* America" ... but if the demos have no balls, then who am *I*, a mere outraged citizen stuck among politicos with *NO* balls? Nope ... phuck America ... you believe it, you voted for it, you BOUGHT it ... at least *I* am WELCOME in Canada.
Sorry foer the attitude, but the "liberal media" is to blame for it all, they have no balls either. NY POST tells the truth, need say no more. :)
Once again, SORRY ALL ... if folks only KNEW the crap they were being sold ... "I assure you, there is a train RIGHT behind this one, bing phucking bong, HAVE a nice day." :(
I agree 100%. No, make that 101%.
Same for Arcadia ... LET'S GET REAL HERE ... NEW YORK CITY *IS* their PRIME TARGET ... and DESPITE how NYC voted, what the NYC attitude is, they're GOING TO phuck New York ... Shrub PHUCKED us worse than Usama! I *cannot* forgive the GOP for SHAFTING NYC even though anyone with half a brain (Ronnie Raygun might BE a vegetable, but he's STILL smarter than the REST of his par-tay) realizes that NYC will STILL be the focus of "let's crash a bimb-laden plane into ..."
PLEASE forgive my never-ending raspberries here, but *****WHY***** does NEW YORK CITY have to CONTINUE to pay the price for a Texas MORON? No personal offense intended, unfortunately reality remains an immovable object even IF the spinmeisters remain clueless. If DALLAS or HOUSTON were attacked, I'd end my comments in a FLASH.
Alas, "terrorists" have chosen BROOKLYN and MANHATTAN (and ONE plane for DeeCee) as their "targets" ... how DARE the GOP piss away money in Keokuk when NOTHING happened there? Might as well send troops to VOORHEESVILLE ... only difference is WE *got* guns, know how to aim them, and we KNOW who belongs here and who DOESN'T ... *NO* problem.
Forgive me if I recoil here - the DEMOS were morons ... that particular grade timer's STILL red and the repubs are about to "wrap it" on a red ... don't mind me, I've lived my life in political reporting as a certified "NON-partisan" ... I can't get OVER the stupidity in charge these days. How DID we survive the cold war? C'mon ... REALLY Bro, YOU were there for it ... how CAN you NOT call our "leader" a MORON? Even JOHNSON stood his ground. Even CARTER. :(
But this NONSENSE (I stayed silent during the "war") just irks me to NO END. All the things I heard on conservative TALK RADIO over "Clinton is taking away your freedoms" which did NOT come to pass suddenly *ARE* under the "Militia-approved New World Order administration." ... you know what I mean ... and here we are. :(
Meanwhile, your Sea Beach, and MY "favorite CITY" are left UNFUNDED by the "Bechtel Administration" ... *NO* jets to defend the Sea Beach, and yet DISNEY has cruise missiles on call 24/7 ... am *I* smoking the wrong chit? :)
Make that demanding a fair share of government spending for protection.
Tom
The PRIMARY duty of the federal government is to protect citizens from FOREIGN ENEMIES waging war, and to counter an attack on the land(s) of the United States. That's job number ONE. New York City was ATTACKED by a foreign enemy. The job of the police is to protect the citizenry from DOMESTIC criminal acts, not to act as a surrogate for the military. And yet here we are.
So, as I see it, either we should have MP's and regular army stationed to protect the infrastructure from these foreign enemies, or the federal government should "make whole" the costs of an unauthorized civilian paramilitary to do the job that our federal government should be doing. But what I see here is final proof that it's time to abolish the federal government because it's not doing its job with respect to protecting this country from a foreign enemy that is ON OUR SOIL.
Or at least, pay the bills if we have to do their job ourselves. :(
Ask Martin O'Malley, our Irish Rock Mayor. He's been down to the Halls three times to basicaly tweak Congrease to pay the fair share. If "Homeland Security" is a Fed idea, then why do the cities/states have to pay for HS stuff?
Tip O'Neill, God rest his soul, used to mention that ALL politics is local. Seems some of the bhoys in Congrease seem to have forgotten that.
Last time I looked, Immigration is a FEDERAL task. INS blew it big time with the slipshod policies that let bunches of foreigners in without bothering to check them. Profiling is bad, but last time I looked the guys who flew planes were not blond haired and blue eyed, and all were in a certain age group, so I see nothing wrong in restricting access to their ethnic group.
Rail comment:
The Low-V's were built by a bunch of builder, but all tended to look alike. Has anybody bothered to mention that WMATA's cars all look the same regardless of who made them?
Just a thought: Is somebody in WMATA's car department a reincarnated IRT man?
I just got back from driving around east Tennessee for a week and I see Dubya got it EXACTLY right. Those voters have had their schoolkids tie yellow ribbons on EVERYTHING. New Yorkers count for about NOTHING when you got TX and FL exporting (sometimes a few extra) electors. And we know now that New York's only profitable export is Pataki.
Until, that is, the oil starts to get expensive. Then the political equation could change in a hurry.
It's estimated that 5% of the fighting force were resident aliens
Don't confuse support for the troops as support for the president
But the oil is not going to get expensive thanks to Operation Iraqi Liberation. The grateful Iraqis will be happy to sell us as much oil as we want at the price we want to pay for it, and if necessary we will keep holding fair elections there until they agree to our price.
Tom
Gee, we vote 80% Democrat in every election. Gosh-golly, now why wouldn't Republicans want to send us any money? Waaaaaahhhh!!! *sniff* *sniff* It's not fair!!!
As long as NYC remains an automatic 80% Democrat vote, I fail to see any reason why Washington would want to send any money here. You can bitch, rant, and rave as loud as you want to. Here, have a loudspeaker, with a fresh pair of batteries. Holler your lungs out. It won't make any difference. Everyone who could possibly vote for a Democrat in NYC already does, so any more Democrat party proselytizing would have negligible impact.
You'd be very naive and foolish if you want to claim that sending a few bil-s to NYC would suddenly gain them a bunch of new fans here. The only time you'll see Washington or Albany spend any money on NYC is when it gives them some other political benefit. There's some mileage in being portrayed as helping NYC to recover, so that's why NYC got some bucks to rebuild downtown. But anything beyond that would be complete waste of money, as far Washington and Albany is cocnerned. They'd rather send that pile of cash someplace else where it CAN give them some political benefit.
You claim to have great political acumen. Here's a pop quiz for you. Here's one city where every election sees about 50% of your vote go your way, and the rest go to the other guy, with the outcome up for grabs each either. Here's another city where 80% of the vote always goes to the other guy, and your polls indicate that even Saddam Hussein would win over there, if the other party nominated him.
Now, you have a few billion dollars' worth of spare change in your pocket. Which city's going to get it?
You don't need to be an Einstein to figure that one out.
When the OTHER party was in power, I could actually pay my bills on time. :(
But not to worry, the latest genius work out of the NeoCons is "states need to stop paying teachers such fat retirements" and is pushing the California legislature to "recapture inflated retirement funds" ... here in New York, they're already doing that. Like they say, a republican is a democrat that got mugged ... and as was the case before, democrats are former republicans that finally looked at their bank statement and 401K ... whoops, after adjustments, that's a 101K. :)
But no sense in arguing, it's off-topic as far as transit goes and republicans actually BELIEVE them windbags. And we wonder where MSS (Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf) got his training from. He would have been victorious if only he'd learned how to shout down the media when asked pesky questions. :)
I'd suggest that we tread lightly here - into the area of religion. I will make one comment on the subject as a Jew. The number of Jewish members of Congress is irrelavent to the discussion of israel. I can tell you with absolute certainty that there are many Jews and jewwish sects that oppose the state of Israel on religious grounds. To assume that all Jews - deomcrat or Republican vote a particular way because they are Jews is prejudice. Jews no more vote in lock-step than any other ethnic or religious group.
Indeed, we probably vote less that way than any other. There's a reason for the old joke about two Jews and three opinions.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But since your perspective is "a good Arab is a dead Arab," all your program guarantees us is more bloodshed. By your logic, telling a drunkard to ease off the bottle is a mortal sin. And, of course, anyone with a less pure ultra-right-wing philosophy is evil.
I'm not sure you really know what it means to be pro-Israel or not.
Getting just a little carried away there, Write-your-Congressman-Ron? Really, your on-topic posts read much, much better.
A left wing and right wing radical are basically the same. A conservative can get there as easy as a liberal.
There's a serious problem with that plan. Plainly speaking, I pay a considerable sum for my medical coverage. Despite this, my employer still pays the lion's share. The cost of the coverage not withstanding, there are treatments and benifits that my plan will not pay for. Does it not seem wrong that while I could not get those treatments, people who do not pay for healthcare, people who get healthcare through entitlement programs are entitled to those same treatments. Threatments that I pay for with my tax dollars. I, for one, resent paying for services for others that I am not entitled to.
Think I'm kidding? Ask your medical plan to pay for viagra or Rogaine or similar treatments. Mine won't but medicare has determined how many viagra pills the average male is ENTITLED to. Wanna buy viagra cheap? Hang out in front of a medicare drug mill. 20 & 30 year old 'patients' will gladly sell you their allotment. You are paying for this because of Democraticly sponsored entitlement programs.
To keep it topical, people in my neighborhood pay $12.25 one way to Penn Station on the LIRR (peak) or $8.25 off peak. I assume that most here would pay for the LIRR and the subway. However, if you are on medicare, your fare is much less than that. The fact is, we subsidize the transportation of those receiving medicare.
Heck, I get at least ten "Discount Viagra!" spams a week.
At any rate, I think you're confusing Medicare and Medicaid.
After all, can't have minority groups out childbirthing the GOP ... every sperm is sacred. :)
I'm not too sucessful with Rogaine but it would make Redbirds hair-eeryer.
NJ got caught using Medicare funds to transport handicapped students to school and have to pay it all back. Frelinghuysen Township has the highest per capita property taxes in NJ with no police/fire/hospital/librtayr/anything. Not even one fire hydrant.
Did your crew receive a visit from Ole Roger??? I got an hour of rest out of it but had to scramble doing 14 PCE trucks with the computer finishing at 1445 hrs. CI Peter
:-O
Andrew
Did you pay taxes for the lion's share your employer paid for your medical insurance?
Did you declare the consideral sum that you pay for you medical coverage as an income tax deduction?
Did your employer deduct the lion's share for you medical insurance as a business expense?
In point of fact, the current system of employer provided health insurance benefits amount to government subsidized health insurance. Why should such subsidies be restricted to a certain class of citizens, at the expense of the others. Do you subscribe to the Constitution's equal protection clause?
The cost of the coverage not withstanding, there are treatments and benifits that my plan will not pay for. Does it not seem wrong that while I could not get those treatments, people who do not pay for healthcare, people who get healthcare through entitlement programs are entitled to those same treatments
One part of the Clinton plan addressed this issue, if you remember. It set a standard for basic care. Any employer-sponsored benefits that exceeded this level would be treated as a taxable perk. BTW, the greater objection to this provision came from company executives. Their executive health insurance policies, covered far more than health insurance they provided their employees.
Threatments that I pay for with my tax dollars
I have the same gripe as somebody who has retired but is not yet eligible for Medicare. Part of the tax dollars that I pay on my unearned income is used to pay for your subsidized health insurance. My own health insurance payments are not subsidized to the same extent nor are the benefits likely to be as good. However, I believe that good health is good public policy. I don't begrudge my tax money being used to provide for health, even with the evils of a third party payment system. I do begrudge the private sector profiteers who are indirectly subsidized and rant against those who get direct subsidies. I say a war against hypocrisy.
Yikes, I agree with Bauman about something.
He's right about the indirect tax subsidies for private health care. On top of that, remember most health care spending is on the old and the disabled, and the government pays for most of that through Medicaid and Medicare.
In fact, as of the most recent copy of the Statistical Abstract of the U.S. I bought (2001, data earlier), the federal, state and local governments were already paying, directly and indirectly, for 70 percent! of third party (not out of pocket) health care expenditures. That share is going to go in one direction (up) as the nation ages. Rising private health care premiums increase the tax expenditure on those who are lucky enough to be insured.
The question is, why is there constant pressure to add more direct and indirect goverment spending for those who already have health care? What about the working poor, who lack health insurance, and the self-employed, who can't afford it? What about the children of such people They get nothing. But they do pay sales taxes to support Medicaid (no matter how poor they are) and FICA taxes for Medicare, at 2.9 percent of income for the self employed. MASSIVE generational equity issue.
There is a lot less of a generational inequity issue than you may suppose. The high cost of medical care usually wiped out a person's life savings before Medicare existed. Now, if one's parents accumulate a modest estate , there is a good chance that most of it will pass on to their children.
Then you have intra-generational inequities. Sounds like those whose parents do not have estates (or whose parents are not here, like the immigrants) are being forced to subsidize those whose parents do have estates. As it is, those who have their elderly parents move in with them and provide care are forced to subsidize those who have their elderly parents give them their money then go on Medicaid.
Unless one's parent winds up in a nursing home, without having had the opportunity to transfer assets prior to the statutory "look-back" period. Then it's adios estate.
At the risk of ruffling a few feathers, not to mention veering even further off-topic, I'll have to say that the real problem with health care spending is the excessive focus on costly, but ultimately futile end-of-life care. It's standard practice to spare no expense in prolonging the life of a dying aged person even though little extra life may be gained and the quality of life is nonexistent. I'm talking about such things as inserting a feeding tube to prolong the "life" of an incontinent, immobile 85-year-old with Alzheimer's. Maybe the person will live a few more months. For what point? Lest there be any misunderstanding, I'm not advocating Kevorkian-style euthanasia, but merely a recognition that heroic life-prolonging treatments often do more harm than good.
It was ENTIRELY during Clinton's time that the US economy had its huge boom, and yet this is "Clinton's" recession.
I say it's Nixon's recession, makes just about as much sense blaming it on him as on Clinton.
Clinton was a very effective and pragmatic executive who knew how to work well with either party in Congress. He knew when to leave something alone, when to put the brakes on some dimwitted scheme the Republican majority would bring to the table (and some definitely were, although others were reasonable); everybody gets some credit for how we did, of course. He was a team player, and Congressional leaders knew it.
A trivial non-issue, frankly. He left Alan Greenspan alone to do what Greenspan felt was best; he let agency heads to their jobs (unlike Bush, who has basically tried to micromanage all of them). If he had a weakness, it was foreign policy, but that didn't keep him from being reelected.
Nobody's perfect. The problem wasn't Lewinsky; the problem was, he lied about it. If he had just said "Yeah I slept with her. Sorry about that." and his wife had just come out and said "Yeah, he slept with her. Big deal. It's a family problem, and we'll take care of it," nobody would have cared.
I don't care about it either frankly.
But it's Twiddledee and Twiddledum: a.k.a. Paturkey and Doomberg that's SCREWING THE WORKING CLASS OF NYC. Pataki coud've done something to the fare hike if he wanted to. Doomberg just wants to raise taxes on everything. Pretty soon, there will be a tax just for using your vocal chords.
Don't mind me - I've gone over the top today as far as lying republicans when I found out that more than a third of my retirement fund went byebye when KMart decided to just cancel the stock we held without even a vote, nothing. Seems Shrub changed the rules for corporate conduct while we were distracted looking for Saddam. :(
PeaceNik: Why did you say we are we invading Iraq?
WarMonger: We are invading Iraq because it is in violation of Security
Council resolution 1441. A country cannot be allowed to violate Security
Council resolutions.
PN: But I thought many of our allies, including Israel, were in violation
of more security council resolutions than Iraq.
WM: It's not just about UN resolutions. The main point is that Iraq could
have weapons of mass destruction, and the first sign of a smoking gun
could well be a mushroom cloud over New York.
PN: Mushroom cloud? But I thought the weapons inspectors said Iraq had no
nuclear weapons.
WM: Yes, but biological and chemical weapons are the issue.
PN: But I thought Iraq did not have any long range missiles for attacking
us or our allies with such weapons.
WM: The risk is not Iraq directly attacking us, but rather terrorist
networks that Iraq could sell the weapons to.
PN: But couldn't virtually any country sell chemical or biological
materials? We sold quite a bit to Iraq in the Eighties ourselves, didn't
we?
WM: That's ancient history. Look, Saddam Hussein is an evil man that has
an undeniable track record of repressing his own people since the early
Eighties. He gasses his enemies. Everyone agrees that he is a power-hungry
lunatic murderer.
PN: We sold chemical and biological materials to a power-hungry lunatic
murderer?
WM: The issue is not what we sold, but rather what Saddam did. He is the
one that launched a pre-emptive first strike on Kuwait.
PN: A pre-emptive first strike does sound bad. But didn't our ambassador
to Iraq, April Glaspie, know about and green-light the invasion of Kuwait?
WM: Let's deal with the present, shall we? As of today, Iraq could sell
its biological and chemical weapons to Al Qaida. Osama Bin Laden himself
released an audio tape calling on Iraqis to suicide-attack us, proving a
partnership between the two.
PN: Osama Bin Laden? Wasn't the point of invading Afghanistan to kill him?
WM: Actually, it's not 100% certain that it's really Osama Bin Laden on
the tapes. But the lesson from the tape is the same: there could easily be
a partnership between Al Qaida and Saddam Hussein unless we act.
PN: Is this the same audio tape where Osama Bin Laden labels Saddam a
secular infidel?
WM: You're missing the point by just focusing on the tape. Powell
presented a strong case against Iraq.
PN: He did?
WM: Yes, he showed satellite pictures of an Al Qaida poison factory in
Iraq.
PN: But didn't that turn out to be a harmless shack in the part of Iraq
controlled by the Kurdish opposition?
WM: And a British intelligence report...
PN: Didn't that turn out to be copied from an out-of-date graduate student
paper?
WM: And reports of mobile weapons labs...
PN: Weren't those just artistic renderings?
WM: And reports of Iraqis scuttling and hiding evidence from inspectors...
PN: Wasn't that evidence contradicted by the chief weapons inspector, Hans
Blix?
WM: Yes, but there is plenty of other hard evidence that cannot be
revealed because it would compromise our security.
PN: So there is no publicly available evidence of weapons of mass
destruction in Iraq?
WM: The inspectors are not detectives, it's not their JOB to find
evidence. You're missing the point.
PN: So what is the point?
WM: The main point is that we are invading Iraq because Resolution 1441
threatened "severe consequences." If we do not act, the Security Council
will become an irrelevant debating society.
PN: So the main point is to uphold the rulings of the Security Council?
WM: Absolutely. ...unless it rules against us.
PN: And what if it does rule against us?
WM: In that case, we must lead a coalition of the willing to invade Iraq.
PN: Coalition of the willing? Who's that?
WM: Britain, Turkey, Bulgaria, Spain, and Italy, for starters.
PN: I thought Turkey refused to help us even after we gave them tens of
billions of dollars.
WM: Nevertheless, they may now be willing.
PN: I thought public opinion in all those countries was against war.
WM: Current public opinion is irrelevant. The majority expresses its will
by electing leaders to make decisions.
PN: So it's the decisions of leaders elected by the majority that is
important?
WM: Yes.
PN: But George Bush wasn't elected by voters. He was selected by the U.S.
Supreme C...
WM: I mean, we must support the decisions of our leaders, however they
were elected, because they are acting in our best interest. This is about
being a patriot. That's the bottom line.
PN: So if we do not support the decisions of the president, we are not
patriotic?
WM: I never said that.
PN: So what are you saying? Why are we invading Iraq?
WM: As I said, because there is a chance that they have weapons of mass
destruction that threaten us and our allies.
PN: But the inspectors have not been able to find any such weapons.
WM: Iraq is obviously hiding them.
PN: You know this? How?
WM: Because we know they had the weapons ten years ago, and they are still
unaccounted for.
PN: The weapons we sold them, you mean?
WM: Precisely.
PN: But I thought those biological and chemical weapons would degrade to
an unusable state over ten years.
WM: But there is a chance that some have not degraded.
PN: So as long as there is even a small chance that such weapons exist, we
must invade?
WM: Exactly.
PN: But North Korea actually has large amounts of usable chemical,
biological, AND nuclear weapons, AND long range missiles that can reach
the west coast AND it has expelled nuclear weapons inspectors, AND
threatened to turn America into a sea of fire.
WM: That's a diplomatic issue.
PN: So why are we invading Iraq instead of using diplomacy?
WM: Aren't you listening? We are invading Iraq because we cannot allow the
inspections to drag on indefinitely. Iraq has been delaying, deceiving,
and denying for over ten years, and inspections cost us tens of millions.
PN: But I thought war would cost us tens of billions.
WM: Yes, but this is not about money. This is about security.
PN: But wouldn't a pre-emptive war against Iraq ignite radical Muslim
sentiments against us, and decrease our security?
WM: Possibly, but we must not allow the terrorists to change the way we
live. Once we do that, the terrorists have already won.
PN: So what is the purpose of the Department of Homeland Security,
color-coded terror alerts, and the Patriot Act? Don't these change the way
we live?
WM: I thought you had questions about Iraq.
PN: I do. Why are we invading Iraq?
WM: For the last time, we are invading Iraq because the world has called
on Saddam Hussein to disarm, and he has failed to do so. He must now face
the consequences.
PN: So, likewise, if the world called on us to do something, such as find
a peaceful solution, we would have an obligation to listen?
WM: By "world", I meant the United Nations.
PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the United Nations?
WM: By "United Nations" I meant the Security Council.
PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the Security Council?
WM: I meant the majority of the Security Council.
PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the majority of the Security
Council?
WM: Well... there could be an unreasonable veto.
PN: In which case?
WM: In which case, we have an obligation to ignore the veto.
PN: And if the majority of the Security Council does not support us at
all?
WM: Then we have an obligation to ignore the Security Council.
PN: That makes no sense.
WM: If you love Iraq so much, you should move there. Or maybe France, with
all the other cheese-eating surrender monkeys. It's time to boycott their
wine and cheese, no doubt about that.
PN: Here... have a pretzel, instead.
Yes, there were some bad missteps.
You're a pretty good back seat driver, there.
Let's see, a Train Dude Administration:
-Afghanistan and Pakistan and Iraq would be neutered
-All Muslims in the US would be in concentration camps (for their own safety, of course)
-Income taxes would be eliminated and only consumption taxes would be levied, so those of us earning more than $100,000 a year could stop subsidizing the poor unworthy poor
-The MTA would become a road-building entity, because Train Dude's Transportation Secretary would elkiminate the word "subway" from the vocabulary (goes with the territory)
-The NRA would have absolute veto power over all Justice Dept. appointments
Sound good? When are you running, Train Dude?
That would be nice. Trouble is, his political bedfellows wouldn't go for it.
But hope springs eternal.
Why don't you give give yourself two "good posts", take a couple of Tylenol and lie down.
Ilike your line, BTW. May it be resurrected in the glory of the Manny B. Peaxce be unto you under its majestic girders.
It isn't personal, Train Dude. It's all business. I predict what you would do. If you would do differently, that's cool. How is that a personal attack?
"As for the other points, well you don't really know Dude that well and that's all I have to say about the matter."
The trouble is, I know him very well. Too well.
Unfortunately, prior to the attack on New York, how many would have believed that so-called suicide attacks would have occurred would occur in the U.S.A.? Calling them "suicide" attackers or bombers is incorrect. They are best referred to as what they are, homicide bombers, as multiple first-degree homicide is their main intent and the result of their actions. They are mass murderers in the first degree.
Pres. Bush has got it right and he wasn't even elected by majority vote: Bring them to justice or if that's impossible then bring the justice to them.
All that said and for all of his outbursts, #4 Sea Beach Fred's heart is in the right place, so I give him a lot of slack. Besides, he knows that if it was up to me, with both sides of the MB open, I'd send his train over the bridge.
No, suicide bomber works. Homicide bomber is redundant. What kind of bomber doesn't want to go out and kill? Suicide bomber describes someone who kills himself to kill.
Midnight terrorist these are terrorist who bomb symbolic targets in the middle of the nigh so that no one is hurt.
Not in the days of "Murderers' Row."
Tom
Where IS Osama anyway?
I've gone out of my way to avoid the spouting of a few, but this morning's propaganda has gone WAY over the top ...
I contend that whoever is in the White House has little to do with the economic well being of the country.
All that Republican GOP money still hasn't been invested heavily on you Slum-Beach line, just a signal overhaul, that's about it.
But hey, if you're living on Halliburton, Enron or Bechtel dividend checks, you'll pay NOTHING in taxes. And they're ALL subway vendors, so look at it as the reason why the Metrocard costs more. If you're a republican, it really *IS* a fun pass and nobody down. Except them swine who live on welfare or WORK for a living. SCROO THEM! :(
Beam me up Scotty!!!
Yes, as a matter of fact. Reagan himself was forced to admit that the economy reeked to high heaven the first few years of his administration.
"Cut the crap Bob."
Maybe it would be better if you checked your own facts prior to posting.
I did check it out. Reagan created huge deficits through extravagant spending at the same time he pushed through tax cuts, which had nothing to do with inflation. Reagan inherited half of it, then created the rest.
You do some homework.
Tawana Brawley - Ambassador to Fantasyland or even Secretary of the Interior (of plastic bags).
Louie Farahkan - Ambassador to Israel
Clinton could be the Ambassador to the Southern States
Al Gore could be his runnin' mate
Where was he when the fare was going up? Does he know it would be a regressive hike that hits hardest on the poor and working class?
But there were other ways to accomplish those goals, and economic prosperity came, in part, in spite of Reagan, not 100% because of him. He did some heads-up things, and he screwed up saome things too. Bush I was worse on domestic issues and the economy, and that got him kicked out of office after only one term.
Now you know the facts, too.
A Fantasy History of the United States, by SeaBeach Fred.
You know, Fred, instead of postring bull like that, you could crack a book open yourself once in a while.
No, Bush Sr. LIED about telling the American People to read HIS lips. Also in reference to the Democrats convincing him, all he had to do was to do what his predecessor's wife did, "JUST SAY NO".
Look at what happend to another Republican, Nixon and the fallout from the break-in at Watergate.
At least the asprin factory was closer to chemical weapons than anything the shrub destroyed in Iraq. :-)
Tom
You're right, Train Dude. Bill should at least have let Hilary aim the missiles. Her aim was much better.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Peace,
ANDEE
And don't expect to ever catch hilarious Hillary riding the subway. You can imagine the consternation if I boarded the Sea Beach at 36th Street in Brooklyn and saw her on my train. My reaction? Don't ask!!!
http://www.whitehouse.org/initiatives/posters/index.asp
Enjoy. :)
Yes, but did he have any faults? :-)
Tom
Peace,
ANDEE
So why exactly did you choose to pull this thread up? What little game are you playing here with this one?
AEM7
A quiet word from your boss that your activities have been noticed and will hurt you in your next performance review will do wonders to someone's exercise of their First Amendment rights to free speech.
Take a look at bryan1945's posts 496040 and 497900. It looks like cause and effect to me.
I used to think that this business of MTA supervision monitoring Subtalk was paranoid baloney, but not after what happened with bryan1945.
It's a very strange world of work, in the public sector. When you're dishing out services, inevitably some people will complain, because some people will get the shaft in favor of others who are more needy. The irony is that the powers that be wants those people to get the shaft without noticing that they've been shafted. This is why organized government doesn't work -- you need a way of distributing resources that carries all the information: and that's called $. If you had $2 taken away from you, you notice, because you're now $2 poorer than you were.
Take a look at bryan1945's posts 496040 and 497900. It looks like cause and effect to me.
Yeah, that does seem an unwise move. I suspect he probably moved on since then.
I used to think that this business of MTA supervision monitoring Subtalk was paranoid baloney, but not after what happened with bryan1945.
I still wonder why they have to be so secretive. It's not like NYCTA needs bipartisian support. I don't feel that it's the duty of the transit authority to preserve its authority, and if people want to shoot down the TA for trying stuff, they should try to live in a New York without the TA...
Their concern is understandable. But telling someone who was mildly critical (nothing really serious) to stop posting, which is what looks like happened to bryan1945, is very dismaying.
But yeah, these NWO cronies have now given us "Vaterland Sicherheit" (google those words as your history assignment for today from Unca Selkirk) and as a FORMER Republican, they can kiss my coupler. :)
Check my comments in the "George Will on Amtrak" threads if you will about where I'm coming from. We're LOSING our freedoms and our sanity and it's scaring my teat off. How DARE our "servants" take their revenge out on *US* when it was THEY (our party) who screwed up in the first place by cutting funding for CIA/FBI/INS SO drastically for dubious purposes which directly lead to those towers falling. And they have the AUDACITY to come after *US*?!?!?!?!?
You BETCHA I'm in a foul mood over this all, but Train Dude's CONTINUING silence after several of us have emailed him only CONFIRMS the madness. I hate to see someone who has been SO involved here silenced. GOOD NEWS is, according to my sources with NWI (NewsWorld International) ... Train Dude is *NOT* in Guantanamo. YET. Whew. :(
The First Amendment does not bar your employer from appropriately and correctly sanctioning you because of confidential information you chose to make public.
The First Amendment also does not bar your employer from inappropriately and incorrectly sanctioning you because of non-confidential information you chose to make public.
Employment is generally "at will" unless a union contract says otherwise, or discrimination on certain specified grounds occurs.
I doubt that either Train Dude or bryan1945 has ever released confidential information on Subtalk.
These are republican times. Hitler would have been PROUD. :(
Seriously bro ... NY is under PERPETUAL "Orange" (and I don't mean TUSTIN) ... NY *has* become a police state ... aside from here, where we always WERE a police state. :)
But that's OK ... I ain't black, ain't muslim, ain't gay and ain't a gypsy OR a Catholic (well, yes I am, but I deny it to live in peace) ... they ain't come for ME yet ... so it's OK. :(
His most recent beating involved a page that said nothing but "bump" just so a post from this thread could end up in the index. Why didn't you respond to that?
-Stef
Afterwards a walk of the Bay Ridge up to the hi-level platform was in order. (Took some pictures at the tunnel portal).
We parted company about 10:30 am, I going to grab a late breakfast and the Twin Forks crew went on to Dunton (Jamacia Yard) for an appointment to acquire parts from scrapped LIRR cars over there.
I picked up a quick Mickey D's breakfast during which I got a call from Mark W. alerting me that the SMEEs exited the tunnel portal onto the New Lots structure. So I got back into my car and drove over to Livonia & Snediker Avenues for an unobstructed view of the EL from the street. Waited a few minutes and sure enough the Redbirds FLEW passed me like a steel bat outta hell (was only able to snap off a couple of shots).
Of course I HAD to say hello to my fellow SubTalkers and Branfordites once the excursion made the Junius Street stop. The TSS-in-Charge was good enough to 'crew-door me' at Franklin so I could doubleback to ENY for my car.
It was good to see you Stef, as well as Mr. T, Allan Aron, Conrad Misek, Doug Carrier (both of Seashore) and the other asorted ERA and Branford regulars. I even heard that Dennis Riga was there! Is this true???
-Stef
--Mark
C'mon Fred, that doesn't fully explain the poor academic performance of California students. :-)
Tom
Look, Fred, you've got a bias there that the Congressional record isn't going to fully support. The basic facts are correct, but incomplete to the question, and as to who convinced whom and whose fault it was, well, the Democrats have as mmuch legitimately to claim as you do.
I'm not a registered Democrat by the way.
All kidding aside, Fred, we have acid tongues to match. I want you to keep posting and keep Subtalk as lively as it is. If you think Democrats are the root of all evil, so be it. If some of us (not me) think the Slum-Beach line should be replaced by rickshaws charging $5 per ride, so be it.
And take care of the Brooklyn BMT for us.
Actually, it was President Eisenhower who initiated military assistance to South Viet Nam after the defeat of the French in 1954. But like the U-2, it was not something mentioned in polite society. The military advisors dressed in civilian clothes in Saigon, and wore no U.S. insignia in the field. Kennedy expanded the numbers when the original commitment was not effective.
Tom
In the daily news, today, a reader wrote that the reason President Bush could fly a military jet was because he "hid out in the air national guard instead of fighting for his country". Yes, this night be so. He should have fought for his country like his predecessor. Oooops, did I say that?
Look what happened last year in the Gubernatorial Election in Florida. Jeb Bush cleaned the Democrat's clock in the race by 14%.
And, by the way, your pal Robert Byrd made a complete ass of himself with that self serving monologue about the President landed on the AC. All he needed was his KKK uniform to make the opera-bouffe a complete farce. Your boys are a sad and sorry lot. BTW, your sheets are ready.
And the NY Post PREMATURELY delcared Bush the winner (BUSH WINS) in their usual front page of sin, despite it being correct after the Supreme Court said THE HELL with the American People let's do OUR voting.
Nah, they just knew in advance ;^)
The fact is Gore lost. More importantly - Gore threw in the towel. Based on the performance of the previous administration, in which Mr. Gore played a minor role, we were fortunate to have a real president when this nation was attacked. Of course, some of you have short memories. It was Al Gore who stated that Sen. Byrd was his greatest inspiration in his life (or words to that effect). A man who idolizes a former Klan Kleagel, as president of this nation? Are you sure you really want to go there? Stick to trains, Kool!!!
Peace,
ANDEE
I see at least 20 threads about transit, many with contributions by notorious Democrats, that have been active today.
The trouble is it's easy to overlook those threads with all the political postings filling up the board.
---Choo Choo
You should therefore assume that what you said was so complete that there was nothing that could be added, so clear that no one had any questions about it, and so persuasive that no one could possibly disagree with what you said. Pat yourself on the back!
Tom
Arti
I want to hear about a tunnel rat finding a station made of gold....
-Stef
Peace,
ANDEE
I couldn't resist....
How stupid are you? We've already established (in a post by me, responding to you) that there aren't even that many voters in the entire Florida Panhandle.
Even though I went through this a year ago, and you'll probably ignore this again and spout the same lies a year later.
According to the 2000 Census, there were 671,445 persons aged 18-years or older in the 10 Florida counties in the Panhandle.
According to your logic, fully a 3rd of these people waited at home for the last of 15 or so hours that the polls are open, and immediately decided not to go when the TV told them not to. Does that make any sense to you?
In any event, only 180,221 registered voters in all 10 counties did not turn out to vote. This comprises 67.32% turnout among registered voters, consistent with Florida statewide statistics of 70% for that election that year.
2000 Florida CST election resultsCountyPopulation over 18BushGoreOtherTurnoutRegisteredAbsent
Bay112575386371885020335952064.179274933229Calhoun999628732155228525672.6672341978Escambia2251397302940958715412114170.8417100449863Gulf1043735462389630656566.1699233358Holmes1427949852154402754173.09103172776Jackson363069138686814641747072.87239736503Okaloosa128365520431692425457151264.2411132039808Santa Rosa86474362481279516415068465.167777827094Walton318061217656377241853765.86281449607Washington1606849832796574835358.18143586005Totals6714452376581115261739536657967.32546800180221
Sources: United States Bureau of Census, Census 2000: American Factfinder; Florida Department of State: Election Statistics, 2000.
Apparantly somebody wants to keep them for "history".
I submit that Florida could have made a mint selling them on eBay.
After all, we've seen Radio Shack selling a much rebuilt Washinton PCC and tokens, so why not all those chads?
and, it is true that the number of Florida ballots in storage is equal to the total of posts on Hippos and 76th Street?
Inquiring Mimes want to know.
Maybe it's because these attacks occured on American Soil. It really does amaze me how scared these people are though. Tall buildings and airplanes seem to be a combination that won't happen again, yet people are terrified to work at the 60th floor. It amazes me. But personally, i don't allow crap like that to get me shook up. Still do what I want.
I object to that broad statement. Keeping it On Topic, ain't the trains and buses still full? Streets fulla people, stores, bars, it's all going on. Most people aren't as you describe. Time goes on and things settle. I personally think most potential "foreign terrorists" who are thinking about their brand of evil don't take into consideration the seductive allure of the common American society. Call me simplistic, call me naieve, whatever. But I think the first three thoughts that pop into these guys minds when they get here are
1. "Damn, look at the women they got here!"
2. "Damn, look at the McDonalds they got here!"
3. "Damn, they got toilet paper here!"
This is some very STRONG juju. I think of it as at least causing doubt in the minds of most of these devils. Of course, it's not foolproof, nor does it help for native boy wonders. But it is a part of our strength. Us home growns forget how Disney-like it all is to most of the world.
We're cautious now, not cowards. We'll deal with it.
Okay. I'm not gonna get outta line here. But I've grown up with many "foreigners". I've seen what happens when people outside of our "culture" become exposed to it. My honest opinion: We will never become like Israel or Europe regarding terrorism. That's all I'm gonna say; I don't want to jinx things. But you wanna consider my thoughts "silly" it's okay by me. But I too have personal connections to that murderous attack on us.
BTW: I have not received any e-mail from you.
I don't see any problem with insulting foreign countries if you avoid insulting the people.
One partial explanation for the flat ridership could be explained by the driving restrictions around lower and midtown Manhattan. But even with the relaxation of the driving regulations, ridership on mass transit did not dip and there was not a mass exodus to autos.
If TD is stressed out from this particular Subtalker(s) and other elements on the outside, he should just ignore them and if he's really stressed he should just take a break form this board PLAIN & SIMPLE!
When I was practicing, my office would sometimes try to find federal claims when we were suing New York State or the City. It was always a tradeoff: state judges tended to be more sympathetic to our claims, but the government didn't get an automatic stay if we got a federal injunction.
Apologies for my political rants when I do them, but they ARE related to transit. Whether the direct link is those who control the funding, or those who make the rules, or those who BENEFIT from scraing us out of our teat so we won't RIDE the subway and take a cab instead. If it were my PURPOSE to engage in politicospeak, I could go on and on on thousands of details not related to transit far more condemning on more substantive issues. THIS ain't the place for any of that.
But the politicos DO control the ENTIRE game, and while we argue over loose bolts and lockwashers and where they're located, or WHERE the P train terminates today, the entire transit system we all love, appreciate and depend on is ENTIRELY owned by our politicos and the particular mood swing and photo op that attracts them today. Strappies TOO is a "political entity" ... if you're into PUBLIC TRANSIT, there's no escaping the political angles, they dictate the realities we all discuss.
Sorry for the lecture, I put in MORE time in "politics" than railroading or anything else ... railroading (even on museum trackage) *is* politics. The anointed MAKE the rules ... and they change them faster than some of our compatriots change their ... ahem ... undergarments. :)
I *sat* through all of that. Every session, every "Hear ye hear ye" ... I also was hooked up with the "Legislative Bill Drafting Commission" and other inbred nonsense. My chuckle of the last 26 hours I've been awake was a contact from a Westchester county newspaper (A "daily") asking me if I could get them a copy of the BUDGET which was passed yesterday afternoon. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ... it won't even be PRINTED until the night before the vote. Oh, if people only knew that the MTA was a "BENEVOLENT DESPOT" compared to those we re-elected who blew genuine Arnine "blue smoke" up our collective butts. Hahahahahahahaha ...
Don't mind me, y'all KNOW how Selkirk gets when he's too punchy from too much email and too much code-writing ... when I'm struggling to wake up (whatever time) I hit subtalk and post until I'm semi-conscious. When I feel the sleepies coming on and have gotten home, post some more nonsense. Well ... bedtime I s'pose. :)
But suffrage of those who are "appointed" to a civil service title and KNOW what picking up the soap is REALLY LIKE (and you'd BETTER "fake it" buddy when the politico ... uh ... stains the floor) can attest that all I say can be corroberated ... once again to ALL, sorry for bringing up politics once again, but everything RAPID TRANSIT as well as ANY OTHER railroad is ENTIRELY politics ... and when a politician sneezes, everyone up and down the chain of "command, this is 0730 Brighton, I need a push" has to take "personal time" ... I apologize once again to anyone who feels that my political comments are off-topic. While I may inject an opinioin here and there with my rantings, the underlying truth *IS* on topic. :(
He called today with this information. The two subway cars on flatcars that are shown in the catalog are actual cars that can be pulled in a train on their own wheels and will light up. Since they are Premier models, there will be two number choices on both the red R-17 and the R-17 rider car.
I wonder if the rider car will be available in the original two numbers, RD339 & 36740. 36740 was the number of the rider car in the work train set that everyone felt bad about not being able to purchase separately. MTH would not commit as to what the two numbers would be.
I'm surprised, MVM's give them as change. Here's a picture of one.
BTW, does anyone know if Boston accepts them yet?
People can always use the "UTT" on the bus.
Mark
Another movie I can think of shot there was the scene in coming to America. R32 or R38 train signed as an "E" train in that special Grafitti paint job.
Thats why on the southboud track, the nameplates on the wall are so random.
Hoyt is the budget location on the Subway as it requires the least amount of work from the MTA to provide it. Shows with a little more $$ or a little more clout (like Law and Order) can shoot in actual locations. Some movies, like The Warriors, shoot in Hoyt and real locations like 96th St. (standing in for Union Sq I believe). The Movies section of www.nycsubway.org has more complete information.
Erm, this is the show that tried to pass off PATH WTC as a subway station, and a PA-1 as an A train....
I don't have a great problem with these "foamers". They're doing what interests them or comforts them. They may be very limited in how they are leading their lives, but it's their life. They're doing something.
There is another class of foamer, which I call the message board foamer. They fill this message board daily with 500 to 1000 posts talking about transit.
I think it's the message board foamers that give the railfan window foamers a bad name.
My remarks are not meant to be a subtle attack on any one person here. They are meant as an attack on everyone here.
My remarks are not meant to be a subtle attack on any one person here. They are meant as an attack on everyone here.
Yes, everybodys posts combined equal roughly 500 to 1000, so it was easy to figure out.
And in a way, you're right. On this site, people bicker and fight, Bitch and moan, Whine and complain. Out on trains people just enjoy the ride. Personally, I don't have that kind of time, and I enjoy discussing the future routing and construction of the subways.
Watch out if you're attacking me. We might have to meet somewhere for a "simple chat." ;-)
wayne
Heypaul, I like your stuff.
Bryan
I'd say foamers are pretty much ON topic.
Mind ya, we LOVE our trains whenever we get to play with them, but railroads, choochoos and where the SEABEAST runs consumes LESS than 0.0005% of our "reality" ... sure, when it comes to choochoos that ARe subways, we're into our own buzz ... but we get a BETTER buzz looking out the bedroom window and watching the bunnies on the lawn DO what bunnies are noted for. Folks who ONLY get into how many TPH occurs at a station they don't LIVE at are the ones who need to a$$ki$$ "Doctor Phil" ... for the rest of us, watching the sun rise and blessing the cab WHEREVER we are ... well ... "priceless." :)
No, but it is probably somewhere near Uxbridge at the end of the Piccadilly line. :-)
Tom
If ONLY! More like 100 on-topic posts and 900 posts about
politics, religion, general world events or personal feuds.
Added to the fact that DF is on the right of the pol spectrum, so no balanced coverage there.
This is why I used to post the entire article, but NOOOO, people just bitched at me.
Added to the fact that DF is on the right of the pol spectrum, so no balanced coverage there.
True, but if I posted articles from "Concrete & Asphalt" or "Destination Oil Dependence and SUV Isolation" nobody here would read them. This is a pro-transit message board, it would be stupid to post anti-transit news sources just for the sake of balance.
D/F presents a wide range of issues that deserve discussion here on SubTalk and would otherwise get no play.
Now then, since he seems to be in a digging up garbage mood, what about that time he made derogatory remarks about people who work low paying jobs (likening them to prision inmates) and then refused to explain himself when I pointed this out? He also called me a jackass, as well as a few other things, and then said that I was immature and that he and others should no longer respond to my postings. That describe a 'stand-up guy' to you Fred?
Even when someone says somthing mistakenly, they should at least apologize. If someone does not agree with them, there's no need to refer to them as assholes, or the myriad other terms that he has used for those who disagree with him.
I'm quite surprised to see dear ole CC calling his recent medical
situation "this crap".
If it's crap you say, then crap it is/was. (odd.)
There's a flaw in your logic, who is giving the bad name? If you are referring to the general public, the MB foamers can't give foamers in general a bad name because the general public would never in a billion years ever read into a subway message board enough to develop a bad opinion. However, they do run into window foamers on a regular basis in the real world. The only people in a position to give foamers a bad name are the RFW foamers.
That is really strange. I make compressor sounds, and even dynamic break sounds (you know, the MBTA 01800 makes those miuuuuuuuuuu whine because of the changing frequency in the thrystor-choppers). I also make animal sounds in the company of my friends, in public, and they are always embarrassed. I just don't quite get it.
But I have never been too interested in looking out the front car window, or drool over track diagrams that some people do...
I'm weird.
AEM7
Many (25-50) R-1-9 rollsigns (Front and side)
Several (15-25) "D-type" signs (Front and side)
20+ BMT Standard rollsigns
Several (25-50) assorted other signs (R-10, R-12, R-16, etc.)
Whistles (5-10)
Air Gauges (5-10)
An inventory check is ongoing. I will post any other news as I get it.
-Mark
If anyone is interested in donating any of the above listed items, Please contact me. This year, Things are happening that have not happened in 20+ years (R-9 trip, SMEE trip) this theft is a MAJOR setback for all of us.
How often were the museum cars inventoried? Could this have been an ongoing process?
I then remembered this post from back in May that there was stuff stolen....perhaps I'm just a tad suspicious....but I've seen similarities between what was listed as stolen, and the items I've seen on eBay. I wouldn't mind a few of you just checking eBay for yourself and see what you think. Perhaps you may have already noticed and this is old news...but just thought I'd mention it.
Go to eBay, and do a search for "SUBWAY ROLL SIGN". Pick any of them, and check the "Seller's other auctions"....you'll see the other stuff he has. Click on the number next to the sellers name (150), to see his feeback rating...you can click on any item number to see the stuff he's previously sold.
From the previous post, here's what was listed as stolen....I've seen MANY of these items...
> Many (25-50) R-1-9 rollsigns (Front and side)
> Several (15-25) "D-type" signs (Front and side)
> 20+ BMT Standard rollsigns
> Several (25-50) assorted other signs (R-10, R-12, R-16, etc.)
> Whistles (5-10)
> Air Gauges (5-10)
Your thoughts??
One of the feedbacks says "Great contractor too!"... So he's a CONTRACTOR!!
Did this guy get hired as a CONTRACTOR for TA and not get paid what was promised?
Items "recently found in STORAGE" (which is how CIY kept them).
You INVESTIGATORS can all draw your lines from there...
Good points, Tedd... IAWTP.
If this does turn out to be the "ill gotten booty"....how do you go about reclaiming the stuff?
Honestly, I really miss seeing the R40 slants on the (L). It's hard to believe they disappered so quickly.
David
1) Was this new rules every posted anywhere on the trains or station? If so then how can a blind man read this?
2) Who get the extra $0.25 that the C/R now has? I mean the pouch ticket dose not have a place to say they were charged extra money because there were no given coins for change. So does the MTA get it which is unfair or does the C/R pocket it, which is also unfair?
Robert
On Board Trains
Peak one-way, off-peak one-way, and off-peak round-trip tickets may be purchased on board trains at a cost of $2.75 to $3.50 more if ticket machines are available or the ticket office at your boarding station is open one half-hour prior to the scheduled departure. This higher on-board fare does not apply to senior citizens, people with disabilities, Medicare customers, or customers boarding at stations without a ticket office/ticket machine. Cash only; no bills over $50.
So it looks like the conductor should not have rounded up for the blind guy.
Thanks for the help.
Robert
How can they no longer carry coins if this is still in effect?
Excerpt from MTA rules:
Seniors and People with Disabilities
For individuals 65 years of age or older, as evidenced by a Medicare card, driver’s license, birth certificate, or MTA Reduced-Fare MetroCard presented at time of ticket purchase or use. Good all times except weekday morning westbound peak trains.
If he has a reduced fare card, it's not the conductor's job to figure out whether he has engaged in chicanery to get it.
How about the peak step-up charged when an off-peak ticket is used on a peak train?
In other words, if you have a $5.25 zone 4 off-peak ticket but use it on a peak train, will the step-up be $2.50 (peak fare is $7.75) or $5.75 (onboard peak fare is $11.00) or even $6.00 (no coins)?
How about the step-up charged when using a ticket for a shorter ride on a longer journey?
If you use the same zone 4 ticket for zone 7 travel, will the step-up be $0.75 (zone 7 off-peak fare is $6.00) or $3.75 (zone 7 onboard off-peak fare is $9.00) or $4.00 (no coins)?
In the past, the on-board purchase surcharge would apply to neither of these situations. Under the old policy, the step-ups above would only be $2.50 and $0.75, respectively. Has this changed?
It's obvious that they're trying to eliminate the handling of coins on board, but as long as step-ups are honored, they can't do it without getting messy and unfair.
Mark
2) I think the conductor pocketed the 25 cents.
Depends. If the receipt says $4 (I realize the blind guy can't check, but someone else can), then the LIRR has gotten an extra $.25 in revenue because the conductor didn't have change and didn't give the correct reason for failing to give change.
If the receipt says $3.75, the conductor stole the money and is guilty of petty larceny (not that it's provable at this point, but he's guilty anyway).
Obviously if the passenger has the correct change there is no problem if the conductor does not have change. The problem was the LIRR not giving advance notice that conductors no longer carried change for a dollar.
Tom
I don't know if that's LIRR policy, but I can speak for myself as well as many other NJ Transit trainmen and say that we do the money transaction first, THEN cut the ticket. This is because there were countless times when a passenger changes their mind and wants a one way instead of a round trip or vice versa, or they want to go to Elizabeth instead of Newark, etc. Of course we could tell such a passenger "too late, we cut the ticket already", but if they didn't pay yet, they don't care. It would just mean possible police activity if they refuse to pay at that point. Which is why we get the money first, then cut the ticket. Then, we can say it's too late if they change their mind, and we already have the money.
NJT's policy of charging passengers the $5 service charge is soaring high compared to MNRR's and LIRR's penalties for purchasing tickets on board trains if no prior opportunity to buy tickets was available at their boarding station. Does NJT really need all this money gained from service charges?
Actually, we usually STAND and cut tickets, but that's another story...
Anyway, in my humble opinion (and I know Railfan Pete will probably disagree), the surcharge from places like New York, Newark Penn, and Hoboken should be raised to $10, while the surcharge from outlying stations should be reduced to something like $1 or $2. The reason being that at the major stations, there are umpteen TVM's as well as many agents available. At places like Westfield or Aberdeen-Matawan, for example, there are only 2 machines and no agents after the morning rush. At times after the morning rush, those stations can get pretty crowded, and sometimes there are just too many people for only 2 machines.
Especially when the machines won't take debit/credit cards, only cash, as I've come to expect from the two machines at Little Silver. I've only once managed to use a debit card from there... otherwise it's been "cash only", due to communications line problems with the machines.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How many "odd-ball" TVM's does NJT have like the one mentioned above? And how many in different layouts? (i.e. missing BILL SLOT)
Also, what are the lighted messages and what colors are they? I know one of them is "No bills accepted" in white in red. What is/are the other one(s)?
Does the machine itself change the dispay (not lighted) of OPEN (green)? What is the message in red (or dark orange)? On the older TVM's that NJT used to have, the orange represented "Exact fare - no change given". This was misleading, as I stood in horror at viewing this message while I payed in cash, but was relieved when the coins started spitting out. If it is manually changed, who changes them?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
NOTE: I like the colored effect over the black-and-white on the older TVM's. The front has F40PH2CAT #4118 (correct me if incorrect) in beautiful, accurate colors, but I forgot the second rotating design.
I don't know about the rotatings designed for the color screens, but the Black & White ones had it alternate between 4118 and Comet II 5135.
Now I realize some wiseass passenger could have paid a $9 ticket with quarters, but if that had happened he could have then given the blind man his quarter.
I wouldn't mind mints at least...
Here's the NYTimes article. As always, you need to register. It is free though.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/03/nyregion/03RIDE.html
Interesting thought though ... if the state really CARED about making the MTA a PROFIT making concern for the state teat, then they'd install KENO on the digital roll-signs, section off unused cabs and rent them out to hookers, use a trunk-based "bar car" employee to sell beers, install wagering on platforms as to whether the next arriving train is a 4 or a 5, double or nothing if it's a diverted 6, and a grand prize payoff if it's a number 2 owing to a blockage. What are the odds that some Looto player would hit on a #2 arriving at GCT southbound at 3:14pm? Why the odds would approach that of the LOTTERY! :)
But if the state wants to open up Video gambling, they might as WELL hire hookers and open state-run crack houses. Imagine SCRATCH-OFF METROCARDS!!! Ladies and germs, I rest my case. Heh.
Get 3 tokens and win a Weekly! But watch out for those lemons...
I tell ya though, if they went for the "hooker" idea, I'd bring my handles and keys and spend some money in "Fun City." Heh. Just call me "Bender" ...
Oh yeah, mandatory "on topic" ... wonder if the hooker's cab would be bigger or smaller on the N train, and whether the rathole or the bridge would make it bigger without having to reply to a spammer. :)
I mighta been ABLE to handle the morons if I'd toked up. Heh.
Even IF the token's gone, why NOT "a token and a dream" ... now that the MTA metal is gone, who'd actually HAVE sufficient command of the English language to equate "TOKEN" with "Tokin'"? :)
PLACE yer bets ... find the queen, find the queen ... GAMBLING is NYS' *FUTURE* ... PLACE YER BETS ... D train or A train ... the holding lights are LIT, no more wagering, please ... AND THEY'RE OFF!
(how much NOW would you expect to pay, but wait ... you'll ALSO get the fabulous WIND CHIMES!)
HOOKERS AND KENO! Watch the CLOSING doors ...
The subway dosen't need food service as on many platforms there are Newsstand brand news stands that sell a wide variety of food items. I also think that there is some place that sell Gyros and they are pre-made and waiting so people can jump out of the stopped train, grab a Gyro and then get back on the train b4 the doors close.
David
No Eating
No Drinking
No Radio Playing
(.....could be I've mistaken MTA for Bee-Line)
No Littering/Smoking/Spitting/Radio Playing
on NYCT, at least.
David
Chuck Greene.
Yeah, and think of the money that could be saved by not printing those useless maps!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Once again their is no evidence the MTA cooked the books. Hevesi's own audit did not state the MTA cooked the books. His flashy headline implied they did using terminology like "two sets of books" to mislead the public. Read the entire document, he presented no evidence of cooked books. Beccause there was none that was evident.
If you read the audit you would know that. Standard and poors reaffirmed that the MTA's books were kosher
The MTA's biggest problem is all the debt they took on over the last 15 years which is now comiing due. They were able to take advantage of the historically low interest rates to refinace some of the debt but it still needs to be paid back someday. The $600 million thew comptrolers implied if used this year to cover operating expenses was used to pay off some of the mountain of debt comind due over the next two years
The MTA only hope going foward to keep the base fare from exceeding $2 is to streamline it's operations
PRIORITIZE capitol projects that will allow it to streamline operations. Postpone staion renovations that are not in dire need of repair. Utilize in house crews to do all work, hire specilaists such as elevator repair, esculator repair, CCTV(between bridges and tunnels and NYCT the mta will have installed 1000 cctv cameras over the past 3 years) etc. This is the perfect time to hire because so many good people are jobless. The end result will be lower overall costs and easier to track corruption.
Streamline it's administrative structure which they are doing
Reduce train crews from two to one by using cctv cameras, upgrade R68, r142, r143 with in cab flat pannels.. RUN SHORTER TRAINS MORE FREQUENTLY during non rush hours to reduce costs and attract more riders. Properly upgrade stations with clear consistant OPTO short train stoping locations. Better utilize public adress systems to keep the public abress including bi-lingual announcers where apropiate.
Reduce token booths to one a station and then replace the position with a security officer type position who would be responcible for maintaing secure premises such as monitor cctv, assiist NYPD and FDNY in disasters and other emergencies.
Better track and monitor surface operations such as busses and access a ride USING GPS BASED bus and access a ride monitorng. Take access-a-ride in house. I rather have the drivers make a bit more then the shady operating companies skim ther part. The whole system is amess and the MTA is occuring all the expenses of reservations and vehicles. Why not operate the dam thng themselves.
Better utilize MTA real estate and marketing opurtunities to create alternate revenue streams
Only then will the MTA be able to bring costs in line with expenses. Lets hope MR Hevesi participates in the un-sexy reorganization procccess where there is little to be gained politically except a better opereting more effecient MTA
#3 West End Jeff
http://www.timesnewsweekly.com/
Researchers at Cambridge and Oxford universities believe both scientists displayed classic signs of Asperger's syndrome, which include eccentricity, lack of social skills, obsession with complex topics and communication problems.
It is also suggested that Einstein, who discovered the theory of relativity, and Newton, who discovered the laws of gravity, had these traits in varying degrees.
According to the researchers, Einstein showed signs of Asperger's from a young age. As a child, he was a loner and often repeated sentences obsessively until he was seven years old. He was also a notoriously confusing lecturer, reports BBC.
Later in life, the German-born scientist made intimate friends, had numerous affairs and spoke out on political issues. However, the researchers insist that he continued to show signs of having Asperger's.
"Passion, falling in love and standing up for justice are all perfectly compatible with Asperger's syndrome," Professor Simon Baron-Cohen of Cambridge, one of those involved in the study said, reports BBC quoting New Scientist magazine.
"What most people with Asperger's Syndrome find difficult is casual chatting - they can't do small talk."
The researchers believe that Newton too displayed classic signs of the condition. He hardly spoke, was so engrossed in his work that he often forgot to eat and was lukewarm or bad-tempered with the few friends he had.
If no one turned up at his lectures, he delivered them anyway - talking to an empty room. At the age of 50, he had a nervous breakdown brought on by depression and paranoia.
However, others believe that these traits can be attributed to the high intelligence of both men.
"One can imagine geniuses who are socially inept and yet not remotely autistic," said Dr Glen Elliott, a psychiatrist at the University of California at San Francisco.
"Impatience with the intellectual slowness of others, narcissism and passion for one's mission in life might combine to make such an individual isolative and difficult."
Being familiar with Autism research, I'd like to make one other comment--"Asperger's," though it has separate diagnostic criteria from Autistic Syndrome, is used a synonym for "High Function Autism" or HFA, to distinguish from Rain Man. It is an abused diagnosis, but then Autism and Autistics have suffered a lot of official abuse.
Kinda hard, as he admitted here that he's actually a human being, as strange as that is, considering.
Direct from the annals of Subtalk.
Being OFFICIALLY labelled as a "geek" only assures that your BEST sex will be at a subway car storm door. Heh.
OFFICIALLY labelled as a "geek", as I wore thick black framed glasses, carried a pocket protector with 7 pens (all different ink colors) in it and tortose shell sunglasses, plus hung with the crowd that did things like the newspaper, the locker squad and the library club. (Did all that, plus delivered the New York Times (yeah, the school's in Baltimore) which meant I got to deal with the faculty, so I found out who were neat and who were cheapskates, since I also got to collect the money.)
however, I did drive a cool car (57 Chevy Bel Air) and played baseball (left handed catcher) mostly from the bench and got along with the jocks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do you mind if I ask why?
Mark Michalovic
-Robert King
Speaking of mercury, has anyone ever noticed the decor of the Jersey Avenue station of the Hudson-Bergen light rail? Medicine is the theme, and as chemistry is a big part of medicine the floor is decorated with symbols of chemical elements, including mercury (Hg). You can see the symbol for helium (He) upside down in the picture below from this very website.
Just out of curiosity, does anyone else have more picutres of this station and it's decor? I teach chemistry and they might come in handy. I'd take them myself, but I don't get up to North Jersey very often.
Mark
Mark
How about doing this one...
MTA: Not going my way!
Big bold letters:
"Lower fares, higher wages, richer pensions, more service, and fewer tax subsidies: the MTA delivered!"
Fine print:
"And now, to pay off the debts and unfunded pension liabilities, the MTA will deliver the opposite."
What is the PARODY that you are 'paradying'?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=487510
The following photo is from the last days of the K. The actual last day had R-40s on the K and B, preparing for the change over. Sorry for the low quality scan, but my scanner is antiquated, albeit still able to do transparency.
The BB became a single B in the late 60's after the Chrystie project I believe.
The "AA" (non-rush hours) from 168th to Hudson Terminal replaced the non-rush hour "CC", which became a rush hour only service when the 6th Ave. line opened (24 hour service to the Concourse line being provided by the new "D" train). In rush hours, with the "CC" operating, Washington Heights locals operated via 6th Ave. and became "BB" trains.
After Chrystie St. opened, existing post-war rolling stock, notably R32s and R38s, didn't have a "B" train indicator on their roll signs (the R1-9s did), so the pasted a single "B" over the "BB" and used that indicator. Sometimes, the pasted-on single "B" fell off.
-- Ed Sachs
The R-10s had B signs up front.
Bill "Newkirk"
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You know that this really sucks for Amtrak. Having a 44 train per day capacity constraint could really kill service on the NEC (as it did in this case for SLE service to New London). What bussiness does the CT DEP have in regulating how often Amtrak can raise and lower its lift bridges? Railroads are interstate commerce and thus under federal refulation and all inland navicable waterways are also mandated to be the responsibility of the federal government. I believe that either the Army Corps is responsible for lift bridge regulation. This needs to go to court and have Amtrak be able to run as many trains that it can while still making reasonable allowances to boat traffic.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04282003.shtml#Trains
What would they be saying if this were an auto bridge? Keep it open until we allow it to close?
A bunch of Robert Moses supporters!
If Amtrak / US DOT / FRA didn't have it's head up it's ass when it did the Acela system, it'd be a less of an issue - raise the bridge 30 - 40 feet up and you don't have to open/close it as much. With real high speed trains, this isn't a problem - they can negotiate 3% or 4% grades at track speed no problem.
Thus, if they had properly designed the system in the first place, this wouldn't be happening.
Why should CT DEP, or anyone else, roll over to allow Amtrak to do whatever it wants? Amtrak chose to retain an acient, at seasd level bridge system, and they have to deal with acommidating boater's needs as a result. There were and are ways of engineering around these issues, but they didn't bother to explore them. Tough shit, IMHO. CT has every right to manage their waterways and access to / from however they see fit for their state. If that screws up Amtrak because of Amtrak's stupidity, tough. The waterways were there first, they were a known issue from day one, the technology existed to reduce or even elimanate the problems, Amtrak chose not to implement it. Not CT's fault.
Thus, if they had properly designed the system in the first place, this wouldn't be happening.
You're mistaking the Shore Line for that multi-billion $ TGV only lines that the French built all over. The Shore Line carries a lot more than just ACELA's you know. You have AEM-7 hauled NE Direct trains, GP-40 hauled SLE commuter trains and U23/B23-7/C30-7 hauled P&W freight trains. The AEM's might be able to handle the grade, the geeps could probably handle it with a little more difficulty, but the P&W's will be crawling at 5-10 mph. What are you advocating here? The complete elimination of non HST? Acela Line East Commuter service? High Speed Local Freight?
Rebuilding the 5 bridges would not only have cost billions, taken YEARS, but the approach ramps on either side would have never passed NIMBY muster, let alone dealing with the various railroad junctions that are located next to these bridges.
Jimmy
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Hopefully it won't be the one the MTA just hired
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04282003.shtml#Amtrakstarts
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Do we have any portland ppl around who can comment to how badly their state is in the crapper?
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04282003.shtml#Cascades
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Even despite the MHC's going out of service Amtraj is still having a rough time in the Mail and express bussiness.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04282003.shtml#Amtrakboxcars
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04282003.shtml#Greenbush
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04282003.shtml#Tampa
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Let's all hope that this useless piece of "tourist transit" is killed before it wastes any more money.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04282003.shtml#Seattle
You actually think that the POS Central Link being propped up by unSound Transit (aka Piece Transit redux) actually stands a chance at reducing the number of cars on I-5 and 99? The Green Line was THE ONLY project in the works that would benefit the riders over much of King County, quite unlike the uni-corridor Light Rail plan propped up by Sound Transit and City Hall.
Elliot Blvd and the West Seattle Freeway are so choked with cars that Commuting via them is at best a joke, and at worst, more of a nightmare than the LIE. The Green Line would have benefitted both places, north and south of the city in a manner quite unlike that created by the Trolley system, which by all estimation would CREATE more car traffic through the closing of the Bus Tunnel, and, later when the dual usage tunnel reopened, fewer busses running through the tunnel because the LRT cars would require bigger headways.
As to the reference to the Seattle Center Monorail: First, it's a wholely separate system from the proposed Green Line, it's just that both happen to be monorails, and so to the uncouth, unschooled observer, appear the same. Second, it's the ONLY publically owned transit system in the United States to turn a profit annually! Now how many light rail systems can say that? San Diego? NOPE! Lost it's profitablity when it was extended! The Seattle Monorail WAS a tourist transit system, it was built for the 1962 worlds fair, how could it be anything else? And might I add that the original system was built at a cost of merely 3.5 million 1962 unit dollars for the 1.5 mile ROW, thats 2.3 million per mile, or an incredible 13 million per mile if adjusted for inflation between 1962 and 2001. Oh, and after the fair, when ALWEG had covered it's capital costs for the construction of the system they turned the whole system over to Century 21 for nothing. Century 21 in turn sold to the city for a mere 600,000 dollars, probably the best deal any city ever got on a transit system.
Compare the Planned monorail, and planned light rail lines. And consider these direct quotes from LightRail.org: "The latest analysis estimates a total cost of $3.6 billion – about $171 million per mile," they go on to say, "Seattle is certainly one of the most expensive urban areas to build any kind of transportation facility," becuase, "...Hilly terrain and numerous waterways, plus the constraint of the Pacific Ocean (Puget Sound) on one side."
What a load of BullSh!te, they're building UNDER the city through a tunnel built 10 years ago, they propose to merely build a mostly at grade line with all the hazards that brings, AND most of their ridership currently rides the bus ANYWAY! Sound Transit's Lightrail "LINK" is a farce,
Now look at the Seattle Popular Monorail Authority's plan for their 14 mile Green Line, and see, first of all, that the amount is listed just three pages off the homepage, easily accessible (quite unlike SoundTransit, where the figure is so buried in .PDFs I had to go to a secondary source for it). They list the cost as 1.749 billion dollars for their 14 mile line, which works out to a mere 121 million per mile, and that is including all consulting and such fees (it would be 1.4 billion, or 100 million even per mile without such an addition). That right, $50 million cheaper, AND the line is FULLY grade separated, with the possibilty of quiet, street friendly service on the same level as any Subway system in the world.
So no, Seattle should DUMP Sound Transit on it's Arse while they have the chance and just have SPMA build a secondary line down to Ranier Valley off their initial Green Line if they really need the service.
The SPMA's Green line is a project totally concieved, paid for, and built in the City of Seattle. I'm not sure if the SPMA has studied how many of their riders will come from the bus, but i would bet the results would be very similer to those of Central LINK light rail. Of course everyone knows that they will attract more riders than they anticipated, like many other Light rail systems have done. And as for relieving traffic congestion it's doubtful the monorail will do much to resolve traffic congestion in the city of seattle. What capasity they do free up, will quickly be filled by more motorists from both inside and outside the city.
As for the Metro Transit Tunnel, Running light rail through it is the best use for it. More People could use it by riding light rail through it than they ever could by running buses through it. Yes during the construction period they will need to close the tunnel, but by altering the bus route configuration in downtown seattle a lot of the effects will be nullified.
And Finally, you must remember not to be making cost comparasions this early in the game. Sound Transit is almost done with their design and is complete with their EIS work, and they have started construction (well actually pre-construction) while the SPMA is still very early into their design and EIS work. As Sound Transit learned, A lot can happen between design and construction and the SPMA is not immune from the same circumstances that hit ST.
Sound Transit has done practically nothing for those people who live north of Seattle, a 3 stop Commuter train maybe running twice a day (if it ever gets started, now ST just says '2003'), and express bus service that Metro could just as easily provide (oh and you can't use the Tunnel, unless you're one of the lucky 550 from Bellevue bus). Yet they want 3.5 billion for a light rail line that will serve the same area as their Commuter train. Excuse me for calling it Neo-Pierce Transit, if forgot that Pierce Transit still exsists, and yet Sound Transit for some reason feels the need to build them the Tacoma Link, which will serve only downtown Tacoma. Why did Metro KC have to pay for it's own CBD ride free zone, while Sound Transit paid for Tacoma's? I'm sorry for bring a bit biased, I just think that transportation system should provide service to ALL that pay it a subsidy, especially when that transit system draws from a select group of counties, not an entire state. Perhaps Sound Transit should be restricted to running inter-county Sounder commuter trains and a few ST express busses while Snohomish Metro and Pierce all provide intracommunity services.
It may be that SPMA is in the beginning of it's construction phase, not yet loaded down with all the stuff that made Sound transit 50 million dollars more than SPMA, however the point is that the price per mile is unlikely to rise much more than the 50 million per mile separating the two. And, even if both come in at the same, or nearly the same cost per mile, Monorail still wins, becuase it automatically provides all the service that a LRT could, with all the grade separation that a Heavy Rail line (like BART, NYCTA, WMATA, etc) provide, all at a fraction the cost of a heavy rail line.
BTW, I was wondering, are you the guy who ran "Busdude's Page o' Busses" at http://www.barp.ca/busdude/? That was a great site for Northwest bus photos, mind if I ask what happened to it?
Thanks
As for the other projects, While we may get Tacoma LINK light rail, you will note that we dont get other ST Express improvements that Snohomish County does. While we have LINK light rail, we got about Three ST Express Projects (DuPont, Shill P&R, and Tacoma Dome Stn West). We dont have any HOV direct access ramps, New Transit Centers, or as many P&R lots/improvements. Its all a big trade off.
The thing with the SPMA is, they are so early into their overall design that many people dont really know whats going on yet. Once people start really figureing out stuff, and once the final designs are done i will bet they will run afowl of their budget in the same way Sound Transit did. The other thing that i have agenst the monorail is that it isnt compatable with anything else. Most LRVs are capable of running anywhere, with a monorail there really are no standards to dictate stuff like that, and you are locked into a propriatory vendor.
And yes, i do run Busdude's Page O' Buses. The servers got changed and i bought a URL. Its now at www.busdude.com
I-695 (requiring voter approval for all tax increases) was found unconstitutional.
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Let's all hope that this useless piece of "tourist transit" is killed before it wastes any more money.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04282003.shtml#GE
That GE was able to make a diesel that was 40% cleaner than their current one for a minor investment (100 million for a new engine design isn't a lot anymore), seems to point to a place where big improvements can be made at low cost/impact.
Then again, I hear the existing GM 2 stroke won't be able to meet the upcomming EPA regs, though with no EGR, no catalyst, and no SCR, it's not like they're designing for a clean motor in the first place. Look at light diesel industry, where the technology is leaps and bounds beyond rail diesels (electronic valving, EFI, EGR, feedback systems, etc), not to mention the auto industry. It shouldn't be hard to make rail diesels a LOT cleaner today.
Anyway, I'm amazed GE thinks this is all new - VW was showing diesel on demand in cars years ago.
Then again, electrics are known to be more efficient and don't use any power sitting in a yard any....
Because their engines will just get shittier and shitter. You know how long it takes for a GE 4-stroke to load. The EPA needs to get off the railroads asses. Railroads save far more fuel and pollution compared to the motor vehicles that they replace. By forcing the locomotive builders to cut their preformance of their units all that will happen is that the traffic will shift to trucks.
The problem with GE's is a piss poor turbocharger design that's been 'fixed' by screwing with the injection system, and not by designing a decent turbo in the first place.
I wouldn't worry though, the Class I's are so braindead, they'll by GE/GM's shit no matter what. apparently both companies figured that out years ago, too...
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Hmmmm, seems that Harvard is trying to expand its own operations at the expense of the economy of the greater Boston area.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04282003.shtml#CSXBoston
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Seriously, they will be known as NAFTA Rail.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df04282003.shtml#Hola
According to the MTA web site No R Service between 36th Street and 95th Street(replaced by Shuttle Bus)
Today at Union Square Station announcement that R train is operating between Continental Ave and Whitehall Street only!!!!!
I actually saw a southbond R train (an R-46) with electric sign "To Whitehall Street"
THE MTA LIES AGAIN
Thank You
Thank You
Majority know well enough to NOT trust the MTA Website for a godsend.
You're Welcome. :)
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Lets list all their lies and let the public aware of it
Thank You
Ironically, SEPTA's slogan is "Serious about Change". I think it's not serious for anything. The way Philadelphians are and Pennsylvanians, nothing works out with their cranky and short-minded attitudes.
Is the N running on the local track SB from 36th to 59th, as usual for weekends? How about NB? Is it making local stops?
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
C Train Local - #3519
C Train Local - #3413
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Do some R68's have this equipment? Finally, since CBTC can help safely operate trains, will it result in higher speeds/less timers?
--AcelaExpress2005
The conventional signals (remember, this is a pilot project) will be put in service over the next half year plus. Meanwhile, I think they are going to begin testing various CBTC components which are being installed.
When this is all over, the L line will be the line to ride. Meanwhile, we Culver riders have not yet begun to be stuck with G.O.s.
Last Sunday I saw six R-40 sets and one R-40M set on the W. Usually there have been about three. If the Q was running only R-68's and R-68A's, that would explain some of the excess R-40's.
http://english.glendale.cc.ca.us/angflt.html
perhaps they are confusing the 1963 date with the discontinuance of streetcar service in Los Angeles.
The PCC's saw very little use on the FCGU, three or four years total, as the cars were very in very bad shape by the storage for three years in the subway tunnel.
Southern Pacific (the owner of Pacific Electric) took FCGU to the cleaners on the PCC sale.
The PE (and LARy) is part of the focus of the OERM's collection. They do have at least one PCC from the PE. Salaam has posted a picture of it.
Tom
All the PC PCC's (double end, multiple unit, Pullman built) went to FCGU and were scrapped there. OERM didn't get a 5000. They have SF MUNI PCC's, LARy, LATL & LAMTA PCC's, a PCC from San Diego, but no PE ones.
I believe Salaam posted a PE "Hollywood" car, which is not a PCC.
It would be fun to explore the terminal end, but that would take some kind of approval from the building owner and an escort to unlock doors. Neither of those things is likely at any time, and certainly not on a weekend, unless you could convince the real estate agent that the group represented rich investors with a multi-million dollar down payment. You would have better luck getting a copy of the ½ hour tour of the place done by Huel Howser for his KCET program.
At the other end there is nothing but the abandoned tunnel, no tracks ties or wire. There is a gate in front of the tunnel mouth with plenty of holes in it. It is trespassing to go into the tunnel, which goes several hundred meters ending at a blank wall, but there is plenty of olfactory evidence that people have been there. Outside the mouth of the tunnel is the old Toluca Yard. There is usually a neighborhood soccer game in progress there. Here is an ariel view of the location. Or maybe this tour will suffice.
Tom
You have a safe trip over from the islands!!!
R-32
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I seem to recall the rationale behind this hair-brained scheme was, "Let's paint the cars white. That way we can get the graffiti off as soon as it's applied." Huh? Sounds almost like a Ralph Kramden scheme. Hamana-hamana-hamana-hamana.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Because they aren't "Snowbirds". "Snowbirds" was a name previously taken by another rail transportation vehicle back in the 60's. I believe in 1965 the Lehigh Valley RR purchased a fleet of AlCo C628's that they then (eventually) painted in a white scheme with large black LEHIGH VALLEY lettering on the sides and black upper surfaces. Note the following example:
--------------------
Down with the rest, the Brighton line is the best! phased in from 1985-89.
Canvasbirds. Hmm, gotta love it.
The other typical train suffix is "Liner"
Peace.
ANDEE
Mark
---Choo Choo
On this past Friday (5/2), on train # 5446, 8 people got on and nobody got off. On train # 5713, 15 got off, and nobody got on.
Obviously a few years ago, the TA ran short trains during non-rush hours, but they haven't in a while. Why are these signs still up, and at every station?
"Board shuttle trains here"
What shuttle trains? I don't think the Culver Shuttle or the 3rd Ave El run anymore...
Are there any more (types of) signs like this? Why are they still up? And why don't they put some of these on the (G) platforms and cover up the part that says "off-hours", so passengers won't get confused? I was once part of an entire train-worth of (G) passengers that was standing near the back end of the platform at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, most having got off the A/C, and the train pulled in and stopped at the front. It was chaotic, and is really annoying running around the staircases to get to the train.
Elias
Pictures to come soon!
http://www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/wmata/yards/e99/
After I left Oren and Tristan I went down to Central Avenue and got some pictures of the Blue Line G Route extension construction. 33 images, resized and compressed for faster viewing. These guy are not wasting any time.
http://www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/wmata/g-route/
John
Here are three of what I think are the most interesting pictures I took today. Full complement will be on my website at a later date with bus rodeo pictures, this is merely a preview of what is to come!
White Line to...
CAF 5159
Between the blind ends of two Bredas (MUST SEE!!!)
View from the ground as opposed to taking picture from a station platform.
Here are more examples;
DCP01368.jpg
DCP01369.jpg
DCP01370.jpg
DCP01371.jpg
John
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
You asked for it.
http://www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/wmata/yards/e99/DCP01350.jpg
John
No, WMATA has always had a open photography policy with certain limits. The limits are no tripods or light stands can be used on WMATA property for photography without a permit.
Mark
From what Oren related to me the Bus Rodeo was more open and had more stuff that people see then what was in Greenbelt Yard (E99).
This was my second rail Rodeo the first was in 2001, These are the pictures I took back then. I missed last years Rodeo. This was where I first saw and photographed the CAF cars before WMATA had excepted them for revenue service. Being I don’t use or ride metrorail very much my first ride aboard a CAF car was in Greenbelt Yard.
John, someday I'll see that collection of yours.
Haven’t had time to check with boss about that Saturday run from the west.
John
Everybody agrees that the Lex bottleneck is partly due to the dwell times at stations being too long, but too long means over 30 seconds. The announcements aren't that long.
Possibly a train in the middle of the night could get where it's going faster with quicker announcements.
"This is a Manhattan-bound L train. The next stand clear of the closing doors please."
Or even worse:
"This is...[BING-BUNG]-CLICK"
Some human conductors do, too. There's one guy on the F who insists on staying in each station to announce every major stop on every connecting train. For example: "Transfer is available to the uptown 'D' express to 205th Street in the Bronx, stopping at 59th Street-Columbus Circle, 125th Street, Yankee Stadium, Fordham Road, and ending at 205th Street. Transfer is also available to the 'B' to Bedford Park Blvd in the Bronx,...."). However, he does sometimes "hurry it up" - by omitting his own train's info!!
"This is a Brooklyn Bridge bound 6 train. The nex-Stand clear of the closing doors please!"
I guess he did this because there was no reason to sit at those stations for longer than necessary. But once we got into Manhattan, he let the messages play out fully.
As for late nights, I was on a Redbird #2 (over a year ago) from 12:07a to 12:30a (approx. from Bergen St. to Penn Sta.) and on some station stops the conductor wouldn't say anything and open and close the doors. Announcements were succinct, and this was where I met the best Redbird in service, #9119. Smooth starts and stops, smooth doors, and the like. What equipment was in use on the #2 line before the R142's took over?
"This i- The ne- Stand cl-" DING DONG CLICK
The R142A and the other NTTs should announce the next stop once the train starts moving if they don't announce it in the station. For example:
This is a Brooklyn Bridge bound 6 trai- Stand clear of the closing doors please! DING DONG
(train starts to move)
The next stop is 77th Street
But the only time it would do that is when the next stop wasnt announced when the doors were open.
"This is a Brooklyn-bound 2 express train. Stand clear of the closing doors! The next stop is 14th Street. Ding dong!"
I've only heard it that one time.
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Anyway, the descriptions of the items say that these date back to the turn of the 19th century, but they look IND style. Can anyone comment?
Reminds me of a pair of Redbird bulkhead signs (route & destination) I saw in an antique shop on 79 St, "great 1920s art deco collectable!" When I told the proprietor that the frames themselves couldn't be older than 1958, and the signs were from the mid-1980s, I was asked to leave the store.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
-- Ed Sachs
Construction of Church Street South Extension
Over New Haven Interlocking and Rail Yard
... As of Saturday May 3, 2003 6:30 PM the Church Street crane pick is a GO. Anticipated initial pick time will be at 12:30 AM to begin transport of bridge at 1:30 AM.
Newington, Conn. - State Transportation Commissioner James F. Byrnes, Jr. has announced that the construction of the Church Street South Extension over the New Haven Rail Yard is in the final stage of preparations of a major operation. O & G Industries, the contractor for the project, is completing plans to erect the bridge span over the mainline railroad tracks at Union Station. This will require a complete shut down of electric power and rail service while construction crews set the bridge span in place over the tracks.
Erection operations are currently scheduled for Sunday, May 4, 2003 between the hours of 1:30 AM and 3:30 AM, weather permitting. (In the event of inclement weather, the operation will take place on Sunday, May 11, 2003 at the same time.) The public is alerted that announcements and notifications from both Metro North and Amtrak will be made regarding any effect this construction may have on train schedules during this time period.
A protected viewing area will be established on Union Avenue adjacent to the construction work zone. The City of New Haven Police Department will control this area. The public is asked to abide by all in force parking restrictions and regulations. For safety and security reasons, the Public will not be allowed to enter railroad property.
This construction operation will be a first for the Connecticut Department of Transportation and will involve the use of the largest, mobile, land-based high capacity crane currently in existence. To minimize the disruption to train service and eliminate the difficulty with building a bridge over active rail lines, the Department of Transportation specified that this portion of the bridge be completed in a single night operation over the weekend.
The bridge span to be erected is a 320 foot long truss weighing over 850 tons and is the main segment of the 1280 foot long bridge that will carry Church Street South Extension over the New Haven Rail Yard to link up with Sargent Drive adjacent to I-95. The truss span has already been fully assembled on temporary supports outside the limits of the railroad tracks. This high-capacity crane owned by the Lampson International LLC, will require over 4 weeks of assembly and was delivered on more than 200 tractor-trailer loads of parts. The crane will lift the truss span in its entirety over 65 feet in the air and travel 100 feet towards the tracks where it will be set in it’s final position.
When all Phases of the construction work are complete in May of 2004, the new bridge and roadway extension will connect Union Avenue with Sargent Drive. This will provide an alternate route for traffic seeking downtown, Sargent Drive, and Long Wharf areas of New Haven as well as improved access to and from I-95 and Union Station. The total Project cost is approximately $32 million dollars.
If you've never seen Hudson, the tracks to ADM literally go right through the center of the city - right through a city park.
On occasion, they wouldn't call. And, without fail, when they didn't we would need to get to the other side - and couldn't.
Can you show me on a map where you are talking about?
I have passed through Hudson, NY on an Empire Service train to Albany...and I see what ur talking about
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
What would be the point of lowering it?
Peace,
ANDEE
They are not supposed to block all three crossings, though of course they *could* if they tried.
There is a defect detector west of town, and if defect detected, they would be out the other side of town before they could stop anyway, but the rules are not to block the town. I spent an afternoon chewing the fat with the engineer while the conductor got in his two mile walk checking the train.
Ha.... I was taking with this crew before they left Dickinson, and then I drove home on the Interstate. Sometime later, same crew is cooling its heels. Actually the train ahead of them got tagged with a defect, and that one stopped east of town like it was supposed to, and so this guy got held up west of town, and could not enter the grade crossing until the front guy was gone.
Elias
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
BTW there are no handles on the outside of the train. Gates and springs protect the people on the outside of the train not those crossing from car to car. That was the point of the modification.
I don't understand that. Please explain.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
As to why the end doors weren't simply kept locked when the decision was made that the slant wasn't good from a safety point of view, at first they were. However, unlike the 75-footers, the end doors can't be unlocked electrically in an emergency, and either nobody thought of retrofitting the cars with that feature, it was deemed more expensive than adding the chains and brackets, or somebody decided that it was better to allow people to walk between cars, even at the cost of the cars' aesthetic appeal (and remember, the first 200 cars came in without air conditioning and the end door windows don't open and never did, so locked end doors might not have been considered as palatable as they might be now).
David
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
When the R-40 slants go to a museum, then the bars can be removed.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Well, It was fun when I was a teenager and in my early 20's - ten years later now I guess I would look a bit foolish riding between cars - you seem to be able to get away with more when you are a kid. I guess it was the closest thing my generation had to gate cars, as the Myrtle El was removed before I was born.
***It is not recommended to ride between cars - dangerous! I would never do such a thing.
wayne
Any other comments from those who attended?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Two grandkids. My 22 month old grandson is quite the railfan, having ridden and enjoyed PATCO, the Market-Frankford el, and the Cape May Seashore Lines Budd car.
Bob
Chuck Greene
--Mark
I liked your Standard - looked like who ever gets to play with it has loads of fun making those bull gear, door motor and compressor noises. I know I would!! :)
Yes, I get to make all sorts of fun noises when I play with the standard :)
--Mark
I also went on the Line Car Chase Fantrip on the Media and Sharon Hill lines. We chased line car D-39, due to be retired very shortly, as SEPTA now has a diesel replacement line car on the property. Events on this trip may have made this D-39's last run (it supposedly had three other last runs before ours).
We did the Media route first, and all was uneventful, with a good number of photostops made en route. But about 3/4 into the route, line car D-39 experienced motor problems (I think two of the four motors on the car shorted out). It travelled to the end of the line at reduced speed, with the railfans following it in a 1981 Kawasaki car.
On the way out of Media, on an upgrade on State(?) Street, the motors on D-39 were cut back in, but they blew again. This time, the Kawasaki car was in the same electrical block as the line car, and the power surge shorted out our car, too! No propulski!! The Line Car was able to recover from the surge (2 motors still OK) but we were dead in our tracks, literally! We were rescued by an in-service Media Local - it coupled onto our car and towed us back to the junction of the Media & Sharon Hill Lines, where we all got off. The car was then towed to the 69th St shop for repair. Meanwhile, the new diesel line car was dispatched to rescue D-39, and towed D-39 back to 69th St shop. We got unexpected pictures of these line cars coupled to one another.
After it dropped off D-39, the diesel line car and a new chartered Kawasaki car met up with us at the junction, where we took it to the end of the Sharon Hill line and chased the diesel line car back to 69th St. We ended uo chasing 2 line cars, had ample time for lunch and comfort breaks (very few or none were originally planned) and the trip ended about 4pm instead of 2:30pm.
Got some good video chasing the line cars as well as in-service video on some of the viaducts that these lines run over. Nearly went for a swim trying to grab that perfect angle!
There was an ad-hoc PCC trip that also occurred on Sunday, 1pm was the start time. Did anyone attend that trip?
--Mark
Are you making trolley videos yet:)
Simon
Swindon UK
Of course, if you'd rather just have the trolley portions of the videos that have subway, too, that can be arranged ... just talk to me off-line.
--Mark
DANBURY RAILWAY MUSEUM
SPRING RAILFAIR DOUBLEHEADER!
SUNDAY MAY 4TH 2003
TRAIN SHOW (at Western Connecticut State University) featuring 100+ tables of Railroad Collectibles, Gifts, Models and Books
COMBINED WITH RAILFAIR DAY (at Danbury Railway Museum) featuring Unlimited Vintage Train Rides, Track Car rides, Model Railroad Clinic and More
FREE SHUTTLE BUS service takes you between BOTH events all for ONE LOW PRICE ADMISSION ($7 Adults $3 Children).
Train Show runs 10am to 3pm (at the College)
Railfair runs 10am to 5pm (at the Museum)
Contact:
Danbury Railway Museum
(203) 778-8337
http://www.danbury.org/DRM
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Yep, that's it.
---Cho0 Choo
---Choo Choo
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
http://brianweinberg.com/photos/5borobike/5borobike.html
Note, there are some photos on-topic for this forum. Try to find them.
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
Your pictures made me feel like i was there
---Choo Choo
I bowed out htis year because for the first time in a long time I Had no one to ride with.
I was thinking about marshalling but decided just to skip this year.
What I like the best about the bike tour is you get to see the underbelly of the city from a prespective you don't normally see
---Choo Choo
It has never aired live. There isn't any competitive aspect, so there is no interest in carrying it as a sports event, like the Marathon.
It was featured in an episode of a program called "Marlo the Magic Movie Machine" sometime around 1979-1980. It was also the feature subject of a Johnny Carson monologue and a Charles Osgood poem around 20 years ago.
It has received more TV coverage abroad. There have been programs about it in Japan, Brazil, Germany and Quebec. There was a Canadian TV crew out yesterday.
FYI, I was a Marshall in it three years ago and my brother has been a Marshall in the tours for nearly 8 years...
Oh yeah, on regular days, do they currently allow cars on the SI Ferry?
---Choo Choo
You were at the tail end. The regularly scheduled 5:30 boat was coming in, when loading stopped on the Legion. The 5:30 boat was the last boat that officially took 5 Boro riders back to South Ferry. There were about 50 stragglers on the 6:00 boat; they used the passenger terminal to enter.
Oh yeah, on regular days, do they currently allow cars on the SI Ferry?
Not any more, thanks to 9/11.
So I went with her to the car and helped put the bike rack on the car and I chatted a bit. By the time I got back to the ferry line, it was shorter. The distance the line extended beyond the ramp was cut in half. The line moved quickly because a ferry was boarding. But the line stopped moving when I was about halfway down the ramp. I then had to wait an additional 20 or so minutes until the Legion arrived and started boarding.
Anyhow, my point is that when I left the festival, people were still coming off the bridge and there were a lot of people still at the festival. A LOT! So there is no explanation except that during the time I was helping with the bike rack at the car (30 min max), most of those people headed down for the ferry. Because as we were pulling away from the dock, the line on the ramp was pretty short.
How many people (with bikes) do you think they put on each of the boats?
---Choo Choo
I'm was a 5 Boro marshal and one of my assignments was the Ferry Terminal.
I tried to leave the festival at 3:45pm, but they were only allowing small groups out at a time.
The plan is supposed to be hold people in the Fort for 5 minutes out of every 15 minutes. The purpose is to permit automobile traffic to cross Bay St. There are contingency plans to hold people at the Fort, if there are any ferry problems. There were no ferry problems yesterday.
The line for the ferry at that time was way past the end of the ramp. It went up the street a good way.
If you left at 3:45, then you arrived at the Ferry Terminal at approximately 4:05. How far back were they? Our reports at the ferry dock were that they were backed up only to the water station near the Post Office. We try to keep the bus ramps to the terminal clear. Any overflow will go into Bay St, which is closed to traffic.
my point is that when I left the festival, people were still coming off the bridge and there were a lot of people still at the festival.
The last riders were entering the Fort at 3:45. The SAG vehicles pulled in around 4:15. They started pushing people out of the Fort around 4:30. All the people were at the ferry by 5:00, except those that stopped at the bars.
How many people (with bikes) do you think they put on each of the boats?
Our guess is around 1200. It varies with how much loading time we take. We figure that a boat load will take up half the ramp.
If you left at 3:45, then you arrived at the Ferry Terminal at approximately 4:05. How far back were they?
Let me try to describe it. On Bay St, right by the ramp, there was a low, concrete median with plant life in it. The median went up the street a ways, then either stopped, or there was a large break in it. That is where the line was backed up to.
The last riders were entering the Fort at 3:45. The SAG vehicles pulled in around 4:15. They started pushing people out of the Fort around 4:30. All the people were at the ferry by 5:00, except those that stopped at the bars.
My sister and I made a 45 minute stop at the pre-Verrazano Bridge rest area. We then arrived at the Festival at 2:30pm. Without that long stop, and another stop at the Astoria Park rest area, and without my sister, I guess I could have made it to the Festival by 1:15pm. When did the first bikers begin to arrive at the Festival?
Our guess is around 1200. It varies with how much loading time we take. We figure that a boat load will take up half the ramp.
At 1200 a pop, and assuming 25,000 take the boat home, that would be 21 boat loads. How many boats were there per hour? What was the race's estimate for the number of riders that would take the ferry home, and/or did take the ferry home? Also, do you have the latest for how many people rode in this year's tour?
Thanks for answering all these questions!
---Choo Choo
Approximately 11:15. There is a mandatory hold at Astoria Park until 10:00. There is also a mandatory hold at Ft Wadsworth until 11:45.
How many boats were there per hour?
4 boats/hour most of the time. The sole exception was the interval from 4:00 to 4:30. There were indeed 21 boat loads, starting at 12:15 through 5:30. The early boats went out with fewer than 1200. We loaded more on the later boats. We probably achieved maximum loading between 2:30 and 3:30. We use 25,000 as the estimate for the number that we transport back to South Ferry.
Also, do you have the latest for how many people rode in this year's tour?
We don't know how many people rode the tour but we will have an accurate number of how many were registered to participate. The registrations from Thursday on through Sunday have not been processed yet. Those numbers typically run more than 1000 per day.
Wow, I'm a good guesser!
Can you please post the final tally of registered riders when you know it? Thanks.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
--Mark
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
Four boats were operating, which constitutes the large boat fleet at any given time. One of the big boats is always out of service for maintenance.
The regularly scheduled Kennedy Class boats were the Kennedy and the Lehman. Bikes were permitted on the automobile deck, which is now closed because of post 9/11 security concerns. The bikes are restricted to the lower deck because of DOT's concern for their regular passengers.
The two extra boats were the Barberi (Barberi Class) and the Legion (Kennedy Class). All three decks could be used for bikes because they carried no regular passengers.
Needless to say there was a very long line (2pm) waiting for the ferry of sweaty bikers.
I'd be curious to know how long you waited.
Is it possible that the organizers paid for the extra boats?
The last page of the participant's Ride Guide reads in part: "Additionally, proceeds benefit the Department of Transportation Traffic Safety for NYC, Inc..."
This foundation is operated and administered by NYCDOT. It is not unusual for special events, organized "fun and games", etc. to make a contribution to NYC to defray extra costs incurred by the City.
I would not be surprised, if the amount of this "contribution" were not somehow related to the extra costs for operating the extra boats.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
It's just a matter of time before the Kawasaki R-62s debut on the 3.
-Stef
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
1506-1510 are back on the road in 4 service, sporting new trucks....
-Stef
R-32.
As to the length of #3 trains, it's been ten cars, not nine, for about a year and a half now.
David
wayne
They did. Has everyone already forgotten the how the MTA cut down the 11-car trains to 10-car during the summer months? It was done because of the presumably lower ridership during the summer months with students not going to school/and other stuff. I believe they got rid of the rogue R33 single with fans only. Even with the R62A's coming in last summer, they still ran 10-car trains.
For this summer, it'
I mean to say, 'For this summer, who knows if they'll still do the 10-car pattern.
How does cutting the trains to ten cars increase the capacity of the line?
9536-7 haven't been stripped; I wouldn't count them out just yet.
9536-7 was off the road today and stored on the track next to 9362-3, but I've seen cars there that have gone back into service. I won't believe it's permanently OOS until I see parts missing.
Correction: 9354-5 and 9526-7 have been OOS for months.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
In other words, they may be at one of the ends one day and in the middle the next.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
http://www.railfanwindow.com/temp/2003.04.15/r-36ml.html
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
Directly to its north were 9662-3, which seem to still have their original pre-GOH gray seats.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
You really have no clue how a railroad works do you?
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Needless to say, your 'birds are not faring well. No more 'birds are running on the ML anymore and it seems they are going fast on the Flushing...
Sorry for the blurriness but it was zoomed through a tinted window.
Not that you can tell from the picture but the 2 genesis engines were /_____| |_____\ (back to back) instead of the usual /_____| /_____| (sniffing leader's ass) alignment.
Not that you can tell from the picture but the 2 genesis engines were /_____| |_____\ (back to back) instead of the usual /_____| /_____| (sniffing leader's ass) alignment.
It's called "Elephant Style".
That's blatant discrimination against dogs!
Computers like numbers.
Computers like to *SORT* things
they like to sort things by the numbers....
So, without the letters, the order of the doors would be:
1, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
End of Mystery.
(Except of course that they should have used Port and Starboard!
: )
that is, until a hoodlum fills in the 0's to look like 8's, then the computer goes wacko ...
oh wait, the comptuers don't actually look at the little stickers to figure out what doors to open. This is all moot
I'll bet you the computer will generate a report for the car-knockers on which doors need to be fixed.
Or if someone is holding a door, it can tell the T/O // C/R where the problem is.
: ) Elias
The thing is, I don't think there are any stations where both doors are opened at a station. So being told what side is being held open is pointless, since they should already know.
Robert
David
I hope this helps.
Robert
Finally, you've uncovered the real reason right-on-red is prohibited down here.
Mark
After all, if traffic moved in Manhattan, then a lot more people would be complaining about the subways being slow. Heh.
That used to be the reason, but it turns out that it doesn't matter which direction a stationary object is pointed in when you hit one. Let's face it: at a mile an hour, you're not gonna do that much damage anyway.
Mark
robert
But with the NYC Subway having suffered so many decades of deferred maintenance, there are now many more stations requiring rehabs than can be done at any given time. This is not to say that I excuse the lack of a response, but I wouldn't attribute it to racism.
At high street I noticed an 46 going southbound, so I got off at B'Way-Nassau to shoot some. How many pictures does anyone have featuring reroutes? :)
I got there and an A was pulling out. To my delight what pulled in next was...
But that wasn't the best. Then a C pulls in, and next up...
Wait! Wait! After an A follwed by a C, and MASSIVE congestion (I could see the A still sitting right there outside the station for about 5 minutes), I got...
Only thing more beautiful would have been slants... :)
Zillions. Here's one from an unusual vantage point:
Great pics by the way. Rare to see reroutes, especially those through the Cranberry.
Here's what was crazy. E trains were running down 6th Avenue and terminating at 2nd Avenue. So the F was running via the E and the E was running via the F. When I got to 2nd this afternoon, there was a substantial crowd waiting for a Brooklyn-bound F that won't come until tomorrow morning.
And when I left 2nd, there were three R-32 sets in the station, two E's on the middle tracks and one F on the NB local track. Too bad I had no way to get a picture of that!
The E was rerouted via 63rd Street (and hence 6th Avenue) because of work somewhere on the 53rd Street line. In most cases, it continues to 2nd Avenue, even though it could go to WTC; this time, it may have specifically gone to 2nd to avoid congestion, with the C and F already sharing the track the E would need to get to WTC.
But it sure was confusing, especially since the PA systems on the R-32's aren't very clear. Nobody at W4 had any clue what was going on. Sending the E to a dead end probably wasn't the best of ideas, at least without reams and reams of crystal clear signage on the platforms and on the trains.
Yeah, alot of people were lost yesterday, I overheard a group @ Spring St that thought at first they had to change for the (F) at Jay, but then somebody pointed out that they already WERE on an (F), and they thought it would magically turn around at Jay and go back up towards 2nd Ave (I think they were going to Delancey or E Bway). The last I saw of them was at Jay; they were headed towards Bergen.
R-32
Not that its the definitive answer, but but to show you you're not alone in getting used to 100% R46s.
Also the N according to thsi report is 100% 60' cars.
To be honest I really don't know the purpose of this report and there may be some reason why the report doesn't actually reflect the true assignments.
Also, it doesn't tell what type of equipment runs on which lines. It just classifies as 51', 60' and 75'.
Its interesting because it does say that the N is all 60' cars, but during the midnight hours runs 4 car sets.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Sure enough, we came to an unscheduled stop in Garfield. After she got off, and we got going again, the conductor made a slightly humorous announcement, the essence of it was a reminder not to smoke on the train.
I checked the schedule: the next train from Garfield, the last train of the day, was three hours later.
On a related note: can someone explain the reason for adding a bicycle rack to a train station, when there's a grand total of two houses in a 1-mile radius, and the nearest village a couple of miles away? A new bicycle rack is apparently, one of the things that will be added as part of the ongoing construction work at the station.
Might come in handy. If it's such a low density area, perhaps there's a chance of riding your bike to the station each day without getting killed. And a few miles is the ideal range for a bike ride: too long for most people to enjoy walking, but pretty quick on a bike.
Also, is R62A 2133 still at Livonia or was it transferred to Corona?
Yeah, that happens when there is a 11-car set ENTIRELY of R62A singles, anything in the 2000- and 2100-series on the #7 line...that is EXTREMELY rare...and Gary C. or R33 #8840 a.k.a. Tom Maley can tell you that...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
David
Before GOH, the emergency lights were located in the center fluorescent ceiling lights. Installing the emergency lights in the A/C vent cover was a GOH thing, it wouldn't work when the fans were in place.
Bill "Newkirk"
As to the R-32 and non-air-conditioned R-38 and R-40 cars, their incandescent emergency lights were in the fluorescent lighting diffusers. The cars got air conditioning during GOH, and new fluorescent lighting (which doesn't require incandescent bulbs) at the same time.
David
R-32
David
David
David
David
There are some changes vs the March edition:
The new fares are reflected in the narrative portion of the map. A box detailing the new 311 Non-emergency help number has also been added.
The boxes at the lower left corner on the subway side detailing the restoration of the 1 & 9 service and regular 2 & 3 service and the Coney Island/Stillwell Av reconstruction have been removed and replaced by a box detailing the Q train weekend reroute via the local track in Manhattan.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Are you serious or joking? New printing facilities?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
"No tourists go there, and New Yorkers don't need maps. Especially New Yorkers who work for the MTA at 370 Jay."
The workers at 370 Jay Customer Service could USE a few lessons on both the system and public relations. I recently attempted to bring to their attention an illogical weekend GO as listed on the TA website: No N service; W running EXPRESS outbound 59-Stillwell via Sea Beach and returning to Manhattan normal via West End local. No one on the phone seemed to understand, and there was no answer at the W line super's number. So I went down to 370 on my lunch hour.
Armed with the help of a map and pertinent screen shots from the website, I attempted to explain that the way the GO was worded, there would no service in either direction at any Sea Beach station except New Utrecht. They were very patronizing and dismissive- not to mention talking out of both sides of their mouths. I didn't know what I was talking about; after all, they work for Transit and I don't. They did at least call 'upstairs' only to find that the wording on the GO stood as written.
After ten minutes of frustration, I never did receive a definitive explanation one way or the other as to whether there would or would not be Sea Beach service. They probably got a good laugh about me being one of those stupid Foamers. Unfortunately, I never got to check out the GO for myself that weekend.
So 370 Jay is NOT the answer for recent maps or accurate information.
You really should, just on principle. Ask Greenberger, I think he knows what really happened that weekend.
---Choo Choo
...and New Yorkers don't need maps. Especially New Yorkers who work for the MTA at 370 Jay."
...I was being sarcastic :)
---Choo Choo
"Will there be any trains stopping at 9 Av on the Sea Beach line?"
They have to either say yes, no, or we don't know. If they say yes, fine. If they say no, fine again, and laugh at them for taking away Sea Beach service. And if they say they don't know, then it would be cause to file a formal complaint with someone who could force them to give you an answer. It is their job to give you an answer.
---Choo Choo
In response to customer remarks that for $2, the subway should stop at their homes, the MTA decided to better serve the Sea Beach line by adding more stops. Starting with 9 Ave, new stations will be added every block, plus some mid-block stations. When the Slants are retired, the Sea Beach will exclusively run retired MBTA Boeing LRVs.
But that explains why N trains weren't going past Kings Highway. They must have been busy building new stations down there!
David
And that reminds me of another thing. If there's no third rail, then what's up with the signals up there? How are they powered, and how can they tell if a train is in the next block?
I'm not sure what is meant by "up there." The yard's at ground level. As to signals, they're powered by AC, not DC (which is what courses through the third rail).
David
This is from First hand experince, since I work on the work train three pick ago and came out of the yard many times.
Robert
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
First, it was a yard that was NOT BUILT by NYCT but rather ACQUIRED -- in this case from the Long Island Railroad. Linden Yard was originally an LIRR freight classification yard. The yard is actually part of the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch that happens to be fenced off from the rest of the LIRR system. The entire facility is devoid of third rail, making it acessible to MOW equipment only.
Secondly, Linden does not serve as a 'backdoor' to Livonia yard or any other TA facility. Linden is primarily a track fabrication yard (where the track panels are assembled prior to installation). It allows access to the A division just outside of Junius Street (actually the southbound platform is 'cut' near the lead-car marker to accommodate trains coming out of Linden on the 'wye' track). The other 'arm' of the 'wye' track connects to the 'B' Division via the Canarsie Line (just outside of the Livonia Avenue station). Linden also serves as a diesel re-fueling facility.
22nd Street is but one station. Why would more LRVs be needed? In addition, service out to Weehawken is a mere 2 miles. I would imagine that the rolling stock that is either in storage or on order would be sufficient.
As for the NCS on the other side of the Passaic, I believe that enough rolling stock was ordered over there to eventually cover the startup of the NERL, if/when it ever gets built.
The 2 ones I have used to exit the station in recent weeks have always had the V up.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's all part of Federal Employee Week
Phil Hom
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Little Salaam-like posting there!
John
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know his email was something like that, but asiaticcommunications.com isn't a registered domain name, and according to whois.sc, never was.
He apparently has a TON of different email addresses as made obvious
by a different addy at each board/message..
Having met (and leisurely conversated with) him and his wife, these
two are in my thoughts and prayers...
While I seldom agreed with much of what Salaam posted here (nor understood much of it), still I would hope that his 'problems' weren't caused by others. Also, keep in mind that Salaam was VERY headstrong in his videography -- when it came to getting the 'ultimate shots' -- so his 'legal problems' might also lie in that arena. Unfortunately, not enough info to get an 100% answer here, but it's something not out of the ballpark.
Food for thought.
Salaam was wacky enough that I can assume he is just taking part in another wacky adventure.
---Choo Choo
OT
---Choo Choo
Brah, you're thinking in the OPPOSITE direction.
Myself and the mouse found PROFF it is a much COMPLICATED
case... Since IM NOT ABOUT TO SPILL DETAILS of the man's personal
life on this here TRANSIT SUBWAY board... best I can say is he's in
much need of our thoughts and prayers..
This is no time to bash the man... jest pray for his safekeep.
Since I had a POSITIVE meeting and enjoyed much conversating with him
in his times visiting NY previously...
If you did too, then do. If not, then nevermind brahs.
Yes, unless (1) the arrest happened when he was a juvenile [hardly the case here], (2) the arrest records have been sealed [very rare in non-juvenile cases, but it can happen - one of our lawyers here would know the circumstances better than I], or (3) the arrest did not result in a conviction and the record was "expunged" [this can happen when the person petitions for it and has no prior record, and probably under certain other circumstances - what, I don't know].
Like others have said, I hope that he has not done anything to get himself in trouble again. I may not care for his attitude or other behavior, but he is an excellent photographer who has made positive contributions as well as negative ones to our hobby.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Totally! So I just hope that if it is a fact that he has been arrested, then those in the know would tell us so and stop making vague allusions that just tease us. I hate when people make vague allusions. Either tell us everything (or at least a non-vague allusion) or keep your secrets to yourself.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I don't think any of us know whether or not that is the case. South Ferry and I have both done some internet sleuthing but we haven't found any hard evidence of what may have occurred, just some references in Salaamallah's own posts on other message boards to some apparent legal difficulty he has been experiencing. In an earlier post I've stated the search arguments I've used; anyone can do the same and get a little more detail than what I've posted, but nothing substantial. I'm not planning to call the police department in the area where I think he lives and ask, especially since I don't know what alias he might have used that particular week.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This is a TRANSIT BOARD, Bri...
In the absence of a fellow SubTALKer the least I can do is reply
to public inquiry about his whereabouts WITHOUT putting up
PERSONAL FACTS or BELIEFS about the man... he's as much a private citizen as are you and I.
Further, with the intent of respecting the ON-TOPIC demeanor inscribed herein,
I'm refraining from mentioning any further details about this issue which:
A) Keep this from becoming yet another OT thread. (recently made notorious)
and B) RESPECTING the privacy and personal life of the man in reference.
I don't think any of us would want PERSONAL details of their common life
to be posted on a public forum..... hmm?
While to our man, Salaam, that may have been the case elsewhere,
nuh nuh, it AIN'T gonna be the case HERE, brother.
1SF9
Much Respect.
:)
No. Arrest records are not public records. They are treated as confidential records available to law enforcement and certain other limited disclosure. If criminal charges are filed, the court record is public.
Tom
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I am sure of California only, but I imagine it is true throughout the country. If not, think of the political mischief that could take place if those with political power could have potential opponents arrested, then point out the arrest records in the next campaign. Of course no one thinks anyone in this country would stoop to such tactics. Just ask Marion ("Bitch set me up") Berry.
Tom
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What you are missing is that most arrests are made based on a police officer's "probable cause" to believe that the person arrested has committed a crime. If a police officer gets a radio call at 3:00 A.M. that a residential burglar has just stolen a large TV set, and a few minutes later sees an old car with such a large TV set in the trunk that the trunk lid will not close, he might stop the car and investigate. While talking with the driver, who is evasive about who owns the TV set, he might notice a set of burglar tools inside the car. All those things together would give the officer pretty good probable cause to arrest the driver on suspicion of burglary without waiting for a case to be filed. The same thing could happen if a store owner reports that he has just been robbed and a police officer sees some one who fits the description of the robber a few blocks away who runs as soon as he sees the officer. In both cases some exculpatory evidence (the TV set is a different make than the one stolen; the store owner cannot identify the person arrested) may quickly surface which brings so much doubt as to whether the DA will be able to get a conviction that the DA will decide not to file a case (in California the DA has three court days after arrest to decide, resulting in many Friday evening arrests), and the arrested person will be released without charges being filed.
If you have ever watched the TV show, "Cops" you see virtually all the arrests being made prior to any case being filed.
Tom
A line MP never made an "arrest," he made an "apprehension." When the perp was brought into the MP station, the desk officer, upon hearing the details, would make the arrest, if appropriate, which meant charges were levied.
But even then it was up to the miscreant's commander to convene a court martial. I can remember an instance when an announcement was made that any enlisted man caught driving while drunk would face a summary court martial and upon conviction woud definitely lose a stripe and possibly be sent to the stockade. Two weeks later, a popular sergeant received a long awaited promotion to E-6 and was arrested while driving home too drunk to stand up from the NCO club that evening. He was brought to the orderly room the following morning by MP's after spending the night in the cooler. The C.O. decided not to prosecute the case, and no entry went into the sergeant's record.
Tom
If you have ever watched the TV show ...
The only thing I use a TV for is watching railfan videos :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
---Choo Choo
I wish him the best and hope he gets through whatever he is dealling with right now.
You are just now thinking of that? When we have laws which allow the arrest and detention without charges or communication by those detained, that should be the first thing you think of.
When they came for the Arabs and Muslims, I said nothing because I am not an Arab or Muslim .....
Tom
I truly miss him and hopefully, he will be safe. Is it too much of a coincidence that the 'birds are dying fast only now? :-(
David
----Choo Choo
To tide you over, here's one that I don't think I've posted here yet:
I'd give you another shot or two of the same GO, but the server seems to have gone down within the past five minutes, and I can't give you anything until it comes back.
I did a lot of Sea Beach photography in the fall.
Oh, that's too bad. Maybe it's time to go here: dixiesys.com
:)
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
#3 West End Jeff
Taken from the May 2002 Farewell to the Redbirds MoD trip
3004-3009 had the brighter flourescent bulbs with the same type of lighting fixtures. Those cars were as bright as the current 142(a)/143.
R142
Seriously, if you do an automotive 'boost', the goggles are a must.
This procedure was a result of TWU 100s protests. Nothing will protect you well but your common sense. The crew doing the R110A...three CIs and a Bombardier employee...most likely did everything properly...I suspect a chaffed cable made carbody contact.
The battery boxes in R142s are insulated from carbody...a short to chassis will not complete a circuit.
People think batteries store electric power. What in fact they do is convert electricity into a chemical reaction during charging and discharging. An electrical 'short' makes a very rapid chemical reaction with lots of Hydrogen and Oxygen. CI peter
37.5 volts is considered "intrinsically save" by the National Fire Code - meaning it will not generate sparks to ignite flammable gases. I believe the threshold is 44 volts. Automobiles will be going to a 42 volt battery system. This will not present a spark hazard for any gasoline fumes.
What in fact they do is convert electricity into a chemical reaction during charging and discharging. An electrical 'short' makes a very rapid chemical reaction with lots of Hydrogen and Oxygen
No sir. When batteries supply power, the hydrogen and oxygen combine to produce water. (Actually, you implied a hydrogen-oxygen fuel cell - the product for NiCad's or Edison cells is nickel or iron oxide). Hydrogen is produced when the batteries are being charged. Specifically, for NiCad's hydrogen is produced only when the batteries are being overcharged. A fairly simple charger with a full-charge detector would entirely eliminate hydrogen generation in NiCad's.
http://www.lirrhistory.com/oct2001/1898map.jpg
It has two things I noticed right off the bat. The only map I've seen that shows the LIRR Sheepshead Bay Branch alongside what looks like the precursor railroad to the Brighton Beach Line. And, the Franklin Avenue line is shown connecting to the early LIRR Brooklyn line, with all the street level stops on that line shown.
You will notice that the LIRR Manhattan Beach Line is not directly next to the Brighton for most of its run. See this map.
http://www.lirrhistory.com/whistone.html
You can actually see what is left of the line when you travel westbound on the Port Washington line of the LIRR. Just before the Shea Stadium station, you can see the remnants of what was left of the line as it meets up with the main line. And on the other side, you can sort of make out what is left of the Central line as it goes near the Home Depot.
This brings me to my first point. How come San Fran had so many problems with their Boeing LRVs, while their Bredas started up with no problems? Yet in Boston, they had no problems with the Boeing Vertols, but the Bredas have been sitting in the yards for years? I realize that despite being similar the San Fran and Boston trollies are not the same, with San Fran getting Trap doors and all on their Boeings, while Boston opted for Low Floor on their Bredas. However, does anyone else find it odd that the two TAs basically changed roles in the purchasing of the two LRVs?
The book mentions a 50mph speed limit for the Boeing LRVs, is this even legal under the FRA's definition of a Light Rail Transit system? I thought that the FRA defined LRT sytems as being slower than 45 mph, does anyone know when this might have changed?
Finally, possibly the most enjoyable thing about the book is that it's out of date. It alludes to both SEPTA and Dayton buying the Boeing Vertol LRVs. First, did Dayton ACTUALLY consider making a rail-based transit system? I've heard of the joke website with the Miami Valley Transportation system, but were they actually thinking of building a light rail transit system? And second, was SEPTA considering buying the Boeing LRVs? I'm assuming that they would have been purchased in lieu of the K-cars, but does anyone know if they would have been for the 101, 102 lines or the Subway-Surface lines?
Thanks, thats about all I can think of for now.
As to the Breda's, MUNI's had lots of problems with them at first, but seem to have solved most of them. Boston's Type 8's are simply junk. Somebody didn't do their engineering homework.
Breda does seem to have won first prize in the Ugly Car Contest. Both the MUNI Breda's and the Type 8's are plug ugly.
It is not so twisted. Light rail refers to light duty, not the weight of an individual car. Generally light rail cars are narrow enough to run on streets (whether they do so or not), and run in shorter configurations than heavy (duty) rail cars. The Chicago L is probably closer to light rail than heavy rail, although always categorized as heavy rail.
Tom
Chuck Greene
I can't imagine the FRA defining LRT speeds, since in closed systems not attached to the national rail network they have no jurisdiction. In any case the system speed limit in Los Angeles for the Green Line LRT is 55 mph, and the design speed is higher.
Tom
Since the 142s have taken over most of the IRT and the 160s planning for the IND/BMT, are they planning to get rid of "variety" in the subways and "standardize" the system with only the same two looking cars 142 and 143? Although they are advanced, are they planning to have different designs of the new trains, so that the system would just like what we have now.. 40s slant and modified, 32s 38 etc...Or are they more into function over form? thanks!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
With the pre-May 4 postings, there has been absoultely NOTHING on the fare increase since the fare went up.
Very strange for SubTalk.
It'll be nice to find out whether the MTA is bluffing about unlimiteds bought at the old rate or not. But we can't find that out till tomorrow at the earliest, when supposedly $4 Fun Passes will no longer work.
I also do wonder what the MTA will give me for my 2 leftover $4 Fun Passes. If I can't get a check for $8, can I send them a check for $2 and get a $10 Pay Per Ride (good for 6 rides)? I'll lose value if they send me an $8 Pay per ride or a $7 Fun Pass and a $1 Pay per ride. But again, it's too early to find out.
I'm sitting 178 miles from New York, and there's been zilch here on the MTA's increases. Meanwhile, here in Baltimore the Maryland Transit Administration (our scandal-ridden MTA) has announced a .25 cent rise in the base fare ($1.60, a quarter more than the current $1.35). Other than a piece in the local rag, there's been nothing since. The general assesment on the local transit BBS's here has been "oh, hum).
---Choo Choo
The Straphangers' Campaign, a transit watchdog group, sued last week to try to block the increase, arguing that millions of commuters would be irreparably harmed.
A Manhattan judge refused to block the increase after MTA lawyers argued that reprogramming 12,000 pieces of equipment, including all 4,500 city buses, to accept the old fare would be a logistical nightmare. The MTA also said it would lose $1.2 million a day in revenue to a delayed fare hike.
But Manhattan state Supreme Court Justice Louis York scheduled a hearing for Friday to hear evidence on the matter, and said he may then roll back the increases.
So unless Yogi Berra makes a surprise appearance in front of the judge, it's over. :)
I'll be on the lookout for Fun Passes tomorrow.
---Choo Choo
Give the guy a break, rents in Manhattan are so high, you do what you have to. At least he is not dumpster diving behind restaurants for food. :-)
Tom
What do you think the reader will say tomorrow when you swipe a $4 MetroCard through? Just so I know what to look for.
---Choo Choo
Wait untill the weather gets really nice!
I imagine I'll walk home as well.
I wonder why they're all picking on that photo.
When it showed up in the NYT, I emailed Joe and he knew nothing about it.
---Choo Choo
My sister told me more than once that if I were to live in the city and use the subway every day to get to work, as she did for 12 years, I would feel differently about it. She may be right. I've looked at the subway from a railfan'e perspective ever since my first ride on those shiny new R-32s on July 21, 1965.
And yes, I remember Mister Ed mooing also. Wow ... three in ONE! :)
"I was checking off the cows when this horse walks up, looks me straight in the puss and says, 'Mmmmmmmmmmmoooooooooooooooooooooooo'".
You left me out, Fred. I guess I'm not a Blighton Bitch aficiando !!
Bill "Newkirk"
And the makeovers are all positive, in fact a S/A I talked to, was on Kings Highway on the Slum-Beach line and she though it was THE MOST PITIFUL PLACE TO WORK OUT OF. That was what she said, and was so GLAD to be back of the Brighton Line.
My station and mall, Newkirk Plaza is undergoing a makeover too! Does that say a lot for a LACK of makeovers on your line Fred? Huh?
Doesn't anyone also remember when then the New York Times did the same? I don't remember what the article was about or the choice of the picture's relevance to it, but it was in the Science section for all I know.
www.newyorkish.com
What gives? The MTA is trying to cheat me out of money again probably. There couldn't be a fare hike or anything, I would've seen something about it posted somewhere. I haven't seen any signs on token booths, walls, inside subway cars, ANYWHERE.
What the heck is going on?!?
[/sarcasm]
Probably facetiously enunciating what 80% of subway riders are thinking right now.
Incidentally, the main entrance to that station has no MVM's, although there are a few by the Brighton escalator.
I've seen fare hike posters and the news has plastered us with so much information on this for the last month or so.
When it comes to myself, I always read the signs once I read a station. A station I enter almost everyday, I see at least 2-5 advisories each week. It's good to know.
It has been a long term theroy of mine that the classic rude new yorker steriotype resonates from the fact that many New Yorkers are immigrants not just now but over the course of the last 100 years and pretend to understand when they do not understand many words or expressions that natives are speaking or posted on posters.
Other factors include the move from a homogenious society to a mixed ethnicity society with different social norms thus the rude steriotype
There weren't signs in every language?
What about people who speak Swahili, Maltese or Basque?
Even if we ignore these languages, I didn't see a single sign in Haitian, Arabic, Polish, Korean, Urdu or Hindi. The only signs I saw were in Chinese, Spanish and Russian.
I think the problem lies not in which languages the MTA can make signs in, but rather that people expect to be able to live in the United States without learning the English language.
Agreed. I believe that public documents in the United States (and, by extension, signs in the subway are public documents) should be in English only, and that commercial, non-government signs should also be in English (although I would not infringe on the right of the business owner to display signs in another language). Those immigrants who have been the most successful, as a general rule, are those who have immersed themselves in American language and culture, adding their traditions to those already part of our mix but fundamentally becoming Americans - not Anglo-Americans, Asian-Americans, Mexican-Americans, or any other hyphenated form, but simply Americans.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
HAve poor eysight (like myself, I can't read most signs without glasses)
The MTA operations need to be treated as a customer service driven operation. Although I agree that english emmersion is the best way to really pick up the english language one must also think of all the fireign tourists who pump momey into our city and the fact that having them usse mass transit and pay the base fare makes good business sense
In a world of satalite dishes that you can view tv in any langualge you want, many new arrivals are at a severe disadvantage becasue othe options exist and dooming them to low paying jibs
It is good to reatin one's culture and weave it into our great society . that is what makes america great but you must assimulate your public life to succeed
It's a weekday evening, 5:40 PM, and a Flushing-bound 7 pulls into Queensboro Plaza. Conductor announced, "this a Flushing bound 7 EXPRESS train making EXPRESS stops on the EXPRESS track. Next stop is 61-Woodside, followed by Junction Blvd, Willets Point, and Main St. EXPRESS, EXPRESS, EXPRESS. Stand clear of the closing doors." Then some schmuck sticks his foot in the door and asks, "Local?"
Better yet, the same station, same track, same day, but at 9:00 AM. Some schmuck asks, "Express?"
NO - don't tell me - I don't want to know.
Arti
I'll give you a lead. Go to Bowling Green, to the upper level mezzanine adjacent to the NB platform. Look behind the MVM. Thousands of MetroCards!
Go and swipe.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I also found a much smaller stash in my local station. I went through a small handful and found one with a $1.00 balance.
Even if so, you'll probably find a balance here and there.
I suspect it will be a short term windfall, limited to one time when a person uses a pre May 4th card for the first time with the new fare. Then it will taper off to the regular amount of discarded cards with value, which will interest only the regular scavengers.
Tom
We do have posts here very often about how stupid some people are who never read any signs and are shocked, SHOCKED when their train is out of service due to a GO.
He must have been living in a cave (of his own making).
I would take my own advice on this one but I just spent 10 minutes writing this post.
Anytime you put "As I said before" in a post, it is you wasting bandwith, more than the original poster. If people cannot find your original post, let them do without.
Tom
However, I chose to do something about it! I wrote about it on subtalk. Now, I think my metrocard should work.
Or, I could just try my jumping skills.
Your card might have $1.50 on it.
But the fare is now $2.00.
Therefore $1.50 is Insufficent fare.
I'm not surprised.
On the day of the fare hike, a relative of mine boarding at
(omitted) Station on the (omitted brah) subway line in the
Bronx, reports to having swiped in at a turnstile and it only
deducted $1.50 from her card....
STILL $ 1.50 by this count.
GOTTA Love that MTA Metrocard PC!!
---Choo Choo.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Nah.. by the time someone gets out to it.. It'll be rigged fixed.
PS..What color is money? Same color for this line, bud! ;)
I won't be able to check until May 15th, and it'll probably be fixed by then.
DAMN!
---Choo Choo
The MTA did a failr good job. If all the asstute poster onthis board only found one or two problems systemwide.
A fairy good job
You shoud've played with their system, you are lucky you've checked you balance. My version of scavenger hunt paid off to some degree, I have a $6 Metrocard thanks to all those who discarded their cards with $1.50 on it because they forgot to check their cards after seeing "Insufficient Fare".
The name is temporary as I couldn't think of anything better at the time.
http://underground.goumba.net/
I know some of the images are asking for trouble, but they're remporary as well.
Right now I only have a gallery of up of most recent photos. Photos -> 5/4/2003.
Subway grrl
To my surpirse, the sign had been covered by a new one! I am curious about the following:
1) How much did it cost to put up said sign?
2) How many commuters were left waiting on the platform for a "Rockaways" train which will never arrive?
3) How many commuters actually use the stairway in question?
And you wonder why we have a repeat of the 1975 fiscal crisis. Government is government, before and always!
Regarding NJ Transit train consists:
Is is possible to use Electric Multiple Units such as the Arrow I or III to pull the Comet I-V cars. The reason I ask is becuase I remember riding the <7> past Sunnyside Yard during July of last year seeing this consist (Though my eyes may have been playing tricks on me as it was about 8:30AM).
Any responses would be greatly appreciated.
OR, it was a Comet IB (a Arrow I converted into a Comet coach)
A comet IB is much more likely scenario, given the fact that pretty much all the 1Bs are assigned to Newark Division (with the rest in Atlantic city), and the Raritan Valley line's been dumping them on the NEC as they get Comet IIGOH trainsets.
Actually, NJ Transit considers the Atlantic City Line as part of the "Newark Division".
Hope this helps. Check with Jgtshu or other NJT workers at Railroad.net for the supplemental info.
It's an ANACHRONISM much like Arnines, jargon of a bygone past in the "Transit Authority" ... TMO is the TrainMaster, "TMO" specifically, the "TrainMaster's OFFICE" where you'd sign in, pick up your stuff, breathe on the Trainmaster for fitness for duty, grab your handles and go do your run. They call them "Dispatchers" now ...
In the old days though, the TMO was the pope on a rope. The person who would PERSONALLY chew your butt for being two minutes late. :)
When I started as a conductor, the TWU job paid $357 a week in 1970 cash money. I don't think (adjusted for inflation) that TWU titles pay so nicely THESE days ... but if the TMO wanted to "talk to you" you cowered in FEAR. No need to go "downtown" ... nope, you bought your penance in the TOWER. :)
My father said when he was a C/R, like you mention, the Man was the TrainMaster, and there weren't so many superintendants over him. Now there are probably a good number of supts who wield the power. When something goes down now you usually answer the the super, because before you even get off that train he's been called.
But yes, nothing beats one guy who you CAN'T chit when you could instead have adminiswigs, deputy junior adminiswigs and senior deputy adminiswigs all in a row who have no idea of what a TRAIN is. :)
As for all those supervisors on top of each other, I think that's really dumb management structure. It seems like nobody could be held accountable for anything. Too many chiefs, not enough Indians.
I suppose this is all better today somehow though. At least the trains are clean. :)
But it DOES make me seriously wonder how we managed to run a railroad, ESPECIALLY since most of what we were running was BROKEN. :(
Whoops ... still, it was a FAT check for a 19 year old. :)
Maybe, but we still get TMOs charging capital jobs whenever there is a G.O.
Probably an experiment to see if it was worth doing the other M-1's in the same fashion. With the M-1's going out, don't expect to see others being done.
Bill "Newkirk"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14165-2003May4.html
--Randy B.
[BEGIN PLUG]Listen to his show from 10a-1p Eastern on ESPN Radio!![/END PLUG]
The correct spoof HTML syntax would be;
<PLUG>Listen to his show from 10a-1p Eastern on ESPN Radio!!</PLUG>
Shame to see them go...but one way to look at it is, it is the 21st Century after all. The Metrocard is up there with Washington Metro's farecards, and is far more convenient to use when it comes to the free transfer (AFAIK, DC buses still don't accept the Metro farecards for transfer; you have to get the separate transfer ticket at the station you boarded at, and there is still no bus-to-subway transfer).
At least SEPTA and MBTA still issue the tokens, right...? :-) Don't recall about the CTA, though...
Don't feel ashamed anyway. AFAIK, the return slot is anyone's territory. :) One time, I was going to buy a snapple at a vending machine and I found 50 cents in the return slot! Easy money!!
Works almost every time.
MARTA was a flat-fare system since the beginning. In 1979, when the system opened, the fare was 25 cents. There was no need for tokens, but there was, and still is, a Transcard system for unlimited rides. A customer put their quarter (or the sum of coins) into the slot and they went itn. When the fare went above 25 cents, they just set up token machines and had the turnstiles accept tokens. It's been like that ever since. The Transcard system gives a customer unlimited rides for either a calandar day(s), weekend, week or month.
Since computers were still bukly and expensive in 1979, MARTA decided that if they were going to have a flat fare (and the flat fare was determined by political reasons), there was no reason to invest the millions for a high-tech computer system to handle stuff like number of rides, distnace, and date. Since tokens were common back them, they decided to go with a relatively cheap fare system already in use.
They've gone over 20 years with the status quo, but now the turnstiles are falling apart and are a maintenance nightmare, with all its mechainical parts. Plus it's sooooo easy to evade fare.
MARTA signed a contract with Cubic for a new fare system. The new system will have Smartcards where a radio signal from the card will unlock the turnstile. Also the barriers will supposedly be at least 7 feet high with glass doors to prevent jumping.
Well, if clerks had forgotten to tape off turnstiles, I bet a lot of returned tokens were to be found in slots today/yesterday, since 100% of tokens put into turnstiles would fail.
1sf9
Didn't know return slots existed.
Just so you didn't cross the line and stuff the return slots.
Tom
Whoa, but is that an ugly exit! At the top of the stairs, you find two exit-only iron maidens. Past them is a circuitous graffiti-filled coridor that finally takes you to a staircase that exits into a commercial building on the north side of Fulton, opposite William.
You can almost imagine that this portal to the subway once had better days, back when it was still an entrance. The mezzanine after you leave the iron maidens is rather spacious for the purpose, but the token booth is long-since gone. There's just nothing there, except the graffiti.
It's got to be the ugliest subway exit I've seen in Manhattan below Central Park, although I'm sure there's far worse elsewhere. This is the Exit that Time Forgot.
---Choo Choo
Only two HEETs let you out. Many times, when I catch the M at 9th Street to ride to 2 Broadway, I have to wait a minute of so to get out.
The last time it happened, I wondered what would happen in an emergency if an entire train tried to bust out of there a la the front door of "The Station" in Rhode Island.
At least underground in the CBD, perhaps there needs to be a way to open the gates from the inside in an emergency. Kind of like those exists in a theater -- push, alarm will sound -- guarded by a video camera to discourage vandalism and fare beating. Worth a thought.
Here's a pic of one.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_148.jpg
Theroretically increasing escape routes at night and on weekends. What the straphanger campign should have been advocating if they were truely interested in what's in the best interest of the public was enhancements to the plan such as dedicated monitored cctv, remote exit gates and emergency call boxes
The Subway system is a death trap in case of emergency at night and on weekends with many entraces/exits completely sealed off plus zero supervision to detect and respond to emergencies. Monitored CCTV on platforms and stairways would allow help to get there quicker
As for Heets when they are not locked being any less safe then a setup of just turnstyes in the case of a stanpeed that is just not true. Both in lage syanpeed type situations are not ideal. Exit gates unlocked exit gates even those monitored BY CCTV would be inviting fae beatere
With the fare hike, LIRR prices have gone up dramatically, 25% on all tickets just about, and it is time to call for better service. As a resident of Merrick, (Babylon Line) i take the 7:35 from Flatbush change at jamaica, and board on of the only St. Albans bound trains, and have spoken with many riders from that station.
The LIRR will not stop trains there because of lack of ridership, which is obsurd, because in this part of the city, its a bus to jamaica, of the LIRR, which is reflecting on stations like East New York, and Nostrand Av, which have EXTREMELY HIGH service, but are deserted most of the day, but the A/C lines are a block away from the Nostrand Ave stations, and Broadway junction is atop of East New York practically.
What i need help is trying to get heard by the LIRR, and have this station put to full service, imagine a stop with 8 tph on the LIRR, in rush hour, because all trains stop, even midtown expresses and from out east, it is a one min. stop, so it cant do much, and will help a lot more than it hurts
Perhaps you can form an organization of riders, and have everyone put in enough money into an account for, say, two months of monthly LIRR tickets. The tickets would be held in escrow and purchased when service reached a certain level. Then you go to the MTA and say look, suburban station X has just X riders, but if you give use the same service we have Y people ready to start riding. Here is the money.
I'd say that's your best chance.
If it doesn't work, you and the other memebers could use the interest on the escrow account to fund you organization.
How is that better? Rules may be rules, but if anything, I'd think that announcing transfers before the train stops would give riders more time to collect themselves.
Mark
Policies and inconsistent application like this seem to show that management holds employees in as much contempt as they do riders.
Mark
Times Square on the #2/#3 is probably even longer.
It's not a bug, it's a feature.
Mark
That's how I used to play it. Major transfer points I'd actually do it both, entering the station and in the station, this way no TSS could nail me for not making my announcements with the doors open.
Of course if they wanted to be a real prick, announcements are ONLY to be made with the doors open so they could nail me for the first announcement. But it never happened.
Don't take MY word for it, click HERE to listen to Mister Ed!
You do know that Ed actually once said, "Mmmmmmmoooooooooooooooo," during one episode. Cracked me up.
There were about four cars on the adjacent track waiting to be loaded onto flat cars. I've been told that some sort of agreement with Bombardier, retired M-1's are being sent to Mexico, possibly to circumvent the asbestos issue when scrapping them. These cars going out intact, minus the speed control and radios.
The problem with the M-7 yaw dampers has been solved and M-7's on the property should be retrofitted. I am assuming the ones leaving the factory, are already modified. Other than that, there seems to be no real problems with the M-7's and deliveries are coming in. M-7's are said to running on the West Hempstead branch.
Before the LIRR order is complete, there will be a hiatus and Metro North will receive their M-7's. I guess this spells the end of the NYC 1100's. I'm not sure if Metro North's M-7's will look identical to the LIRR's as far as yellow front striping or not. Time will tell.
Bill "Newkirk"
---Choo Choo
You still have time, they are running last I heard.
Bill "Newkirk"
The LIRR and Metro North M-1's are going to the scrap heap. The Metro North (New Haven Division) M-2's, on the other hand, are scheduled to keep running for at least another 10 years. Although we are told that they will receive overhauls, no funds have been appropriated, and about 20% of the fleet is out of service on any given day.
That's what you get when one jurisdiction (Conn. DOT) has ownership of (most of) the rolling stock, and another (MTA) operates the railroad.
the M7's will only replace about 30 % of M1 fleet and all the ACMU 1100 cars
They never got adequate maintenance and now are in poor condition.
wayne
No reefing for the M-1's. They are being sent on flat cars to Mexico, we believe for scrapping. Possibly to avoid the asbestos issue. Months back someone here on SubTalk reported seeing a couple of M-1's out west, and it wasn't for overhaul either.
Bill "Newkirk"
Just because a car "can make fifty" is not a good reason all by itself to keep it. I personally like the M1 (a bit of railbuff in me and respect for the Budd Co.'s accomplishments). However, the M7's introduce:
1) comfort and amenities which will help increase ridership; the amenities are similar to what is offered on the DM30s.
2) a car built and supported by an existing manufacturer, not one which left the railcar business two decades ago
3) ADA compliance beyond what the M1 offers
4) improved propulsion and control systems, and improved doors (the M7's single leaf doors are more in-line with FRA regulations. If even one leaf is stuck on an M1, both leaves have to be locked shut. This is not true for the subway).
5) Lower maintenance costs
So it's time for the old cars to move on.
This has always struck me as a ridiculous regulation that may make sense somewhere but certainly does not make sense on the LIRR. Has anyone cracked the rationale?
Mark
When the C-3 bilevel coaches were new, they would reportedly automatically lock out any door that wouldn't close after three tries. I don't know if they still operate this way. In my former biz, we called that a denial-of-service attack waiting to happen.
Mark
I do know that the single-leaf door feature on the M7 was in response to the FRA reg, though...
LIRR simply thought a lifespan of an EMU is 30 years to excuse their backyard/toolshed-style mainenance, and got the PCAC and Long Island Republicans to agree with them that replacements were an entitlement. I regard it as a reward for bad managament. 34 year old Budd cars should not be getting cut up.
I doubt all the GE M-1's on MN will get it when they have 1100's to get rid of too. All the M-1's on MN got a GOH.
--Mark
I hear speculation of scrapping more than reuse. It was a deal worked out where Bombardier would take back retired M-1's. I they are to be reused, how do you say " can I have an M.A. reset please " in Spanish ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Asbestos is a reasonably good fireproofing and insulating material - but today there's Fiberglas(R) fr insulation and other, better fireproofing material.
Click the link below to view photos:
Railfan Trip Photos (4/17, 4/21)
The highlight of the ride is trip through the mile long newly restored tunnel, where the Laurel Line interrurbans once tread. The tunnel has new trackage and low wattage sodium vapor lamps to light the way. The funny part is goaning sound of the bull gears make it sound like a ride on the subway ! After we came out in the daylight, we changed ends, and it was back through the tunnel and the next stop at a siding at The Iron Furnace, where a short tour was held. I was told by the operator that plans call for a three mile extension of the line. A bit of the old Laurel Line has been reborn ! Also, there are two grade crossings where the conductor flags the car over the crossing.
It seems that Buckingham Valley's museum cars are all here. These are the ones that ran on the Penn's Landing line. Something real nice until the city pulled the plug and shut the operation down.
Their website is www.ectma.org
Bill "Newkirk"
---Choo Choo
I wouldn't hold my breath on Electric City acquiring any Redbirds or any other subway cars. Electric City seems to be trolley and interrurban oriented. They have their hands full with equipment from the Philadelphia area. In the restoration shop there seems to be a "Hog Island" car undergoing a rebuild.
Bill "Newkirk"
---Choo Choo
"... tell the operator to throw open the throttle ..."
As a qualified trolley operator at another museum(s) they may give me a little handle time, but there wouldn't be full parallel operation if I'm being "piloted". I'm looking forward to that tunnel irrespective of how fast we go.
I doubt it! When we visited ECTM in 2001, they won't "honor" any
other Museums Pass [Branford or Seashore] and you spect handle time.
Also be aware, that at ECTM, there is a fee just to visit the museum,
without riding the "Trolley". It's two separate tickets. Let us
know, how they treat you in August.
Also the distance from the Museum to the loading platform is greater
then the hike from Sprague to Farm River Road and when you go
"Steamtown" will be in full swing. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
All because their track is connected to the National Railroad system.
Ask any of the steam guys about keeping their qualifications up. It's a constant hassel.
And all because of National Capital's 1987 head-on and a guy on ConRail named Ricky Gates.
Plus they are a governement operation vs. non-profit. Also I think the trolley line goes right past the baseball field, if they ran all night we could walk from the hotel to the trolley stop & do the same to/from the field ... hmmm something for their suggestion box :-)
BTW, the out-of-town players stay in that hotel too.
The trolley line does go near Lackawanna County Stadium, but the line has not been rebuilt that far yet. For now you can only go about 1/4 of a mile past the south portal of the Crown Avenue tunnel. The plan is to rebuild the line all the way to the County Visitor's Center, and then run shuttle buses from there up to the stadium. It will be awesome when that happends, since traffic getting off that mountain, especially after a concert, is horrible.
Yes, "The Radisson Lackawanna Station Hotel" is basically the most luxurious hotel in Scranton....and rightly so.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Is it possible to do Steamtown and the trolley museum in one day?
It's the same parking lot for both & the Trolley departs from the
Steamtown Platform. But, I don't think you can by a combination
ticket for both. One's is NPS and the other Lackawanna County.
So IMO, you could do both in the same day. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Heh heh heh heh....No!
1. ECTM is NOT part of Steamtown USA
2. Steamtown USA itself has not existed for over 15 years
3. It is now Steamtown National Historic Site
4. ECTM is NOT part of Steamtown National Historic Site
5. They just are located in the same area and share some tracks
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
"The Electric City Trolley Museum Association is a volunteer non-profit group that supports the activities of the Electric City Trolley Museum in downtown Scranton, Pennsylvania, USA, at the Steamtown National Historic Site."
They really shouldn't say "at" but instead "next to."
---Choo Choo
P.S.
- From the hotel bar, if you time it right, the steam train will go right by your window.
- There is also a nice mine tour across town that used elect tugs on rails.
Yes, the Lackawanna County Mine Tour. The most famous attraction in Lackawanna County. I've been on it at least four times, and they all occured before I finished 8th Grade. If you haven't guessed, I'm from Lackawanna County.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Yes, but if it's Friday Night Happy Hour, I'll do the photoing tommorow.
---Choo Choo
So YOU were the little brat that knew more than the tour guide :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There is a lot to see, but you can do it in a day, and if you cap it off with a night game at the stadium you'll have a little guy who sleeps very well that night < grin >
Make sure to ask about the "tour" of the shops, because you have to get on a list & be there at specific time (no extra charge). My tour guide was William Clark, yes related to THAT William Clark.
Not all. Some are still stored in Philly. A few cars are stored
at a bus garage outside of Scranton.
I remember riding on the Market-Frankfort line after leaving the tunnel, looking down at a fenced-in lot that had some equipment stored for Penn's Landing. I heard some equipment was raided by vandals sripping the cars of copper and brass. What became of those cars ?
Bill "Newkirk"
There is equipment stored at several locations; the regular carbarn is a great facility but is nowhere near the size needed to house the entire BVTA collection. There are cars at Germantown in Philly and the bus garage in Scranton; until recently there were cars stored in Dushore and Buckingham, but I believe they've been evacuated. ECTMA is doing a great job of resurrecting the collection and getting it operating on a real interurban ROW, something that has never been done with such a heavily-built line as the Lackawanna & Wyoming Valley. I hear that they're regauging the trucks on their 80-series car; does anyone know what's happening with the 46?
Frank Hicks
Thank You
What makes a line very good? What makes a railcar really cool? Seeing as how you need to make the trip anyway, why not enjoy yourself and report back?
2. Is it possable a M7 shows up on the PJ Line?
Sorry, no, the Port Jeff is only electrified as far east as Huntington, and the M7s are electric-only. You may see an M7 along the way, though, or if you can find out when and where they'll be, you might be able to plan to connect with one.
Mark
The M7s don't come out to play as frequently on weekends, but you might see one or two laid up at Jamaica. Look in the yard north and west of the station proper. You probably won't get one running to Hicksville or Huntington.
And is it true that the PJ Line was electrified all the way to Port Jefferson at one time?
Nope, never.
Mark
Maybe he confused it with another dead president? Port Washington is all electric.
So the M7 don't run much on weekends and to Huntington as well. But I think that can change by time the summer comes and the M7 order is done.
The contract won't be anywhere near fulfilled this year, but the M7s should be showing their faces in more places as time goes on. A couple of months ago, they weren't carrying passengers at all. You'll get that M7 ride soon enough.
BTW I did see a M7 running on the Main Line going towards Penn Station a bit past the Woodside Station
Yup, a small handful carrying passengers, and another handful running light.
Mark
What might have confused your friend is that there has been talk about electrifying out to Port Jefferson. It's never gotten beyond the talk stage.
Since 12 car trains exist only on LIRR, they have many of them, while MN has none, and such a train will lose 150 seats, it might make some sense to divert some of the M-7 order originally destined to LIRR to Metro North, and modify some MN M-3's to operate on the LIRR.
The benefits would be as follows:
1. MN would be completely M-7 (except for Bombardier locomotive-hauled coaches).
2. LIRR would be completely M-1/M-3 (except for bi-level locomotive-hauled coaches).
3. With LIRR operating M-1/M-3 and MN operating M-7, each railroad could maintain less spare parts inventory instead of a spare parts inventory for both classes of cars.
4. Since M-1/M-3 are not compatible with the M-7, the yard crews won't have "nightmares" making up consists if items 1 and 2 are in effect.
5. With most if not all M-7's going to MN, LIRR yard, shop and road crews would not have to be retrained in operating M-7's.
Your comments are welcome.
Regards,
Danny
As for spare parts inventory, they already do joint orders on expensive parts that are infrequenttly ordered.
As for LIRR crew training, that's already been done, or is being done.
Whether thet are compatible or not, I have never heard one way or the other. They do have the same coupler. NJT Arrow-3/AC/GOH did run in multiple with unrebuilt Arrow-2/DC on the M&E.
M-7 and M-1/3? Most decidedly not compatible. They can couple for emergency towing only.
Mark
PLUS it costs too much and u know what MNR and LIRR stand for
(MENTAL NOT REQUIRED) (LOGIC ISNT REALLY REQUIRED)
I though it was 5, 10, 15, 30, 35, 60, 80 (7 -aspect)
35 used to be 45. FRA made them lower it, which is why the Far Rock branch is so slow.
And is not the same on other equipment.
Mark
Right, what you see when the line goes through Huntington isn't too nice, but you'll see worse from the Ronkonkoma line.
In that they have no full time Railfan Window they are not cool. In that the upper lever really gives you a nice lateral view and neat feeling of flying I would say they are cool.
As far as the M-7s go, besides the fact that the M-7s are EMUs and electrified third rail only goes up to Huntington, making the Huntington-to-Port Jefferson section diesel only, the M-7s right now are on the following lines as of late:
Ronkonkoma (1 trip)
Long Beach (4 trips or more)
Hempstead (2 trips or more)
Far Rockaway (3 trips or more)
West Hempstead (1 trip)
Babylon (this is a ???)
Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, as I am only going by observation...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
Not any more. 4:20 out of Flatbush to Far Rockaway was an M7 set this past Sunday. I wasn't on it, but my train connected with it at Jamaica.
Mark
On the IRT, it is the opposite, even on a two track line there is only track 3 and 4. The middle express track there is track M in both directions.
IRT is 1, 2, 3, 4 going straight across S/B lcl to N/B exp.
So you can have 2 and 3 (ex: White Plains line) or 1 and 4 (ex: Broadway line) as well as M. Interestingly, IRC the Flushing line is 1, 2 and M[A,B,C] (which means all tracks except M would be southbound by numbering standards).
But I've enever seen 3 and 4. That would be IND/BMT (for example, Far Rockaway is F3A and F4A).
Does it cost 35.00 for all trips or just one trip?
Where do I mail the money to get the ticket?
When do I have to mail in for them?
Where will this trip be meeting?
As to the others, I can guess, and hopefully others who know better can give better answers:
Does it cost 35.00 for all trips or just one trip?
I interpret it as being $35.00 PER TRIP. So for all 4 trips, it would be $140.00
Where do I mail the money to get the ticket?
Answered on the page linked to by the Choo.
When do I have to mail in for them?
As soon as possible. Other sources told me that they don't cash the check until the day of the trip, or possibly later, but DON'T TAKE THIS AS FACT, it's just what I heard.
Where will this trip be meeting?
Don't know, details will probably be mailed to you with the tickets.
The IRT SMEE cars leave from Grand Central track #1 (6/7 & 6/28)
The IND R1/9 cars leave from the Chambers St. Station of the J line.
(6/8 & 6/29)
All trips start at 10:30 AM.
-Nick
I didn't hear this news. Link?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030505-111513-3293r
http://www.thechamplainchannel.com/news/2182196/detail.html
---Choo Choo
Only recently has service been restored for the people along the old El route, but with "Bus Rapid Transit" (BRT)
Here's a link I found: (not mine)
http://www.geocities.com/bostonmbta/orange.html
Mark
and here is a map on this site.
Bill "Newkirk"
Mark
Pieces of 'Old Man of Mountain' for Sale on eBay
Mark
Officials halt some Old Man eBay sales
Former trolley "transformer building" for sale on the SW side of Chicago. Looks cool.
I was out Sunday and I saw a set of the R142/R142A (can't really tell them apart) and the cars were numbered 11XX - specifically I saw 1142. I thought they were going to be in the 6XXX - 7XXX series, not 11XX.
Anyone can explain for me? Thanks Again.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I believe DTrain22 has some pictures of them in testing on the Dyre Line.
If anything, they are being renumbered for allotment of the R160's.
Though 1140 might have been connected to 1131..the train is right though.
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r142.html
(Sorry, never learned how to do the HTML on this site)
This table was copied from the R142 page on this site. The R160 page indicates this to be an order of 1700 cars. There's still a gap between the Bombardier order and the Kawasaki order. If the 1101-1220 option was renumbered 7181-7200, and the 1221-1250 option was 7731-7760, I believe there would still be numbers available for the R160, though, I'd think their numbers would surround the R143's (and R110A's if they're still around) anyway. 7761-8000 (240), 8011-8100 (90), 8321-8650 (330), then 8651-9690 (1040), and there you go. Seventeen hundred cars fitting in to some kind of numbering sequence.
Or, if you really want to go Hi-Lo, try 0001-1040 (1040) and then 8321-8980 (660). Bus companies have buses with numbers less than 1000 with leading zeroes (a good example off the top of my head is Omnitrans, San Bernardino, California), why not the subway?
Ex. MTA Maryland has year 2000 NABI 416's. These are numbered 0001 and up. 2001 NABI's are 0101 and up, 2002 Neoplan AN440LF's are 0201 and up...
wayne
R142 made by Bombardier
1101-1250
6301-7180
R142A made by Kawasaki
7211-7730
7731-7850 [option order]
The option order of the R142 was numbered in the 1100 range b/c the R142A already used the numbers from 72xx.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Gotta get those Dems elected so that they can do all that. No chance whatsoever that this can be done with Pataki and Bruno still in office.
Thank you.
Does anyone know how many redbirds will be used for work service and will they replace the very old and beat up R-21 MOW cars?
Which cars are being concidered? R-33WF single units??
And will they break up married pairs for rider cars, or keep lets say a R-36 married pair for rider car.....someone fill me in!!
Thanks!!!
I have seen nothing to indicate any R-36s of either type or R-26/28/29s will be retained.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
One or two pair have already been sunk.
New Jersey purchased 250 cars for its reef program. Isn't that the precise number of married-pair cars at Corona?
That has already been done.
-Stef
IMO, a pair of R-33ML's should be preserved in today's color scheme.
-Stef
To the best of my knowledge Branford has no plans to obtain any additional subway cars at this time. There are some members of the museum who would like to do so, of course, but there are issues of track space and, most importantly, cost that would have to be overcome first, not to mention getting approval from the Board - approval that, while it might now be possible if the issues mentioned above were resolved, would under no circumstances be guaranteed. We have friends in high places, but remember: it's the Shore Line Trolley Museum, not the Subway Museum.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's news to my ears.
Not to mention the first single-ended cars in the NYC subway system!
http://www.timesnewsweekly.com/NewFiles/OURNEIGH.html
8-) ~ Sparky
Perhaps the ties didn't show, but they were usually there as seen in in this 1947 picture on busy Vermont Avenue in Los Angeles.
Tom
L.I.R.R.
(LOGIC IS REALLY REQUIRED)
No.
BTW what loop did you get your information on? News media, radio chatter, employee break room or emloyee friend.
And what would be required if NYCT decided to reopen a station that had been closed? For example, what would NYCT need to do if it decided to reopen Lex/18 for revenue service? Hypothetically, of course.
An unusual case; the station was scarcely used, physically decrepit, very close to Franklin and Park Place, and on a line who's future was uncertain at the time. Even so, there was community opposition to the closing.
Oh, I don't know. That always sounded like an urban legend.
Non-permanent changes do not require hearings. There were some bitter public complaints because the MannyB service changes while the north side was under construction--being non-permanent--did not require hearings, even though they were both dramatic and fairly long-lasting. But in the end, community objections did result in a minor change to the plan (extending the Grand St shuttle to W 4th).
It is hard to conceive of the scenario that would lead to any of the abandoned stations being re-opened. Of course, I understand that the question was hypothetical.
My usual M.O. in going home at night is to take the A train from Jay Street and switch at Broadway Junction for the L train. As there are 7 local stations between Jay Street and Broadway Juntion, the running time on the C is at least 7 or 8 minutes slower than the A.
Now when I have complained before about the lack of passenger information signs, I am told a new system is being put in place which will not be completed for another 8 years. But the dispatcher at Jay St. has a board which while not showing which specific train is coming does show whether there are other trains in the immediate vicinty. How do I know this; well I have heard him announce from time to time a downtown train is at Fulton Street, 3 stops away.
Well a C train arrived at 9:49. Figuring the next A train was only a minute or 2 behind, I decided that it would be best to wait for the next A train. Well it turned out the next train to arrive was another C train, 12 minutes later. The next A train did not arrve for 15 minutes..
The dipatche's board had to show no 8th Avenue service was imminent. I'm sorry, this guy had an obligation to annonce to passengers that the next Queens bound service was at least 10 minutes away so that passengers for Utica, Broadway Junction and Euclid are advised to take the C train in the station. Apoloists for the MTA, please don't tell me I had no right to be told about the next service. Often times when I am in London, if such a situation occurs, passengers are advised on the PA to take the train in the station.
This is late at night. Thanks to this incompetence, I got home 25 minutes later than needed. And the answer is not to always take the C train; the answer is to provide the information.
Here we go again.
From 168th all the way to Euclid, the C takes 10 minutes longer than the A.
From Jay to Euclid, the C takes 6 minutes longer than the A.
This is easily verified by consulting the posted schedules for the A and C (or by running a few timing experiments).
Bypassing a local stop saves 30-40 seconds, not 60 seconds or more.
Yes, an announcement would have been nice, but by letting a local pass there's always a risk of reaching one's destination late. The C train would have gotten you to Broadway Junction in 15 minutes.
Though you are certainly correct that more information would be wonderful, and we all hope that the MTA can greatly improve how much information they can provide us. But I don't think you can blame it all on the guy in the tower.
Is that true? I wasn't aware dispatcher's boards showed 10 or more minutes of prior trackage. When the dispatecher's board at GCT used to be visible, it only showed up to 59th St, or about 4 minutes of track.
At the same time, you can't just declare that it's the TA's fault that you got home 25 minutes later than needed. You've posted many times that announcements aren't made at Jay Street, so you were fully aware of the risk you were taking. The C takes 16 minutes from Jay to ENY and you had one right in front of you. The express A takes 11 minutes and runs every 8-10 (on average you'll have a 5 minute wait for an A if you show up at a random time). So if things were just going along average, you'd have gotten an A in 5 minutes and pulled into ENY at the same time the C you let pass by. If you got lucky, the A would have pulled in right behind the C and you'd have beaten the C to ENY by about 3 minutes.
You knew the risk. You gambled and tried to save 2 or 3 minutes. You lost -- big time in this case because there was some kind of service delay on the A.
You can lay some of the blame on the TA, but to be fair I think you've got to accept a sizeable chunk of it for yourself.
Even though the odds are against you even when things are running normally, I can understand waiting for the express. We all like a good express run. The thing I really don't get (although I realize it's not really why you posted) is why you didn't get on the 2nd C when it pulled in?
CG
My point is that as a regular rider, you should be aware of the general lack of high-quality announcements, the miniscule time savings that the express offers, and the frequency of service on both lines at that time -- and you should make your choice of trains accordingly. My opinion only, but I think you made a bad choice last night -- but yes, I realize that wasn't why you posted. A newcomer to the subways might not have that kind of background (of course, how many subway newbies were on the Jay street platform last night at 10 looking to go to a Fulton express stop -- probably none).
As an aside, given the crowding on the NYC subway in general, I wonder if the TA balks at improving service announcements in order to avoid overcrowding. Too much information can potentially be a bad thing. For example, when a local enters the station now some passengers will take it and others will wait for the express. With full information as to when the next train was coming, presumably everyone would make the same choice -- i.e. if the express is further away everyone jams the local, when the express comes it runs at lower than capacity.
CG
When I clear at 1:30 I catch the A at Bway=Nassau and can't get a seat. You're fortunate enough to not have to wait 20 minutes for the train.
From my experience there aren't many lines that don't see light ridership even late at night, especially in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
1) You vastly over estimate the time savings of an express
2) You don't know how to properly ride the NYC subway system
3) Announcements would be nice, but we know it's not gonna happen so deal with it
Once you can deal with the first two issues, you have permission to discuss the third.
---Choo Choo
This person has no "obligation" to tell you things he doesn't know, nor is this an example of "incompetence", since he did nothing wrong. If this incident bothers you so much, go complain at NYCTransit. Complaining here doesn't accomplish anything - unless you enjoy having everyone tell you it was your own fault.
You would only have to add 4 switches, and short stretch of new track without having to rearrange any of the old track. And service disruptions would be as minimal as possible: while the west switches are being put in the 4 and 5 would still be able access Flatbush and New Lots, and the east switches would only disrupt the line to Flatbush.
What do you think? Have I forgotten any important details or pitfalls, other than the MTAs unwillingness to spend the half-billion they have squirreled away on anything that isn't either actively falling apart or is high profile to the Gov? (Oops, pardon the mini-rant) Has anything like this reached the planning stage yet?
An even less expensive solution would be to place an express to local switch east of the existing junction. This would permit them to route all 2's and 3's to Flatbush, route 5's to New Lots while having them stop at Kingston and Nostrand Aves.
You have to construct new track underneath existing track without disrupting service for more than a weekend at a time.
Not only is it likely to be very expensive, but there is a much cheaper alternative: run all 4s and 5s to Utica or New Lots. Compensate for the 6 #5 trains per hour that used to go to Flatbush by sending 6 #3 trains per hour to Flatbush.
The obvious complaint is that now Flatbush to E Side riders will have to change at Franklin. To that I have two points:
1. This is no worse than what 1/9 riders at 96th and 6 riders at 125th already have to do in the interest of maximizing capacity.
2. More than half of them already do this change already: when heading into Manhattan from Flatbush, the next train is twice as likely to be a 2 as a 5 (12 tph vs 6), so most Lex-bound riders take the 2 that comes and change for either a 4 or 5 at Franklin anyway. Similarly, in the reverse direction, Lex riders have at most a 1 in 3 chance that the first 4/5 that comes will be a Flatbush-bound 5. So they take what comes to Franklin and change for a 2 or 5 there.
Some type of junction south of Flatbush needs to be built, so that the terminal's maximum capacity could be increased to a realistic level.
Chicken and egg. Both changing the terminal and rebuilding the junction are big bucks, and since both are bottlenecks doing either one alone provides little benefit. The question is whether to do both together, but that's a lot of money.
Larry, see my earlier post. THERE ALREADY IS money allocated for the rebuilding of Flatbush Terminal, so that the 'conga line' of bottlenecks on the 2/5 can be allievated.
I'll check tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure that money isn't there now, if it ever was. The MTA and FTA have a long process to get funds. First you have to be included in a theoretical program. For a big improvement, that requires a study. Then you have a master plan and, if required, an EIS. Only then does funding arrive, if it is available, and you can start design. And only when design is completed do you get a construction contract.
And debts go up. Now that the MTA is mortgaged to the hilt, one wonders how much of what is being studied and designed in the 2000-04 plan will be built in 2005-09. The State made decisions to make its elected officials look good in the boom that we are going to pay dearly for in the bust. Beginning now. All the losses we will experience will be described as "inevitable," and at the time they are imposed that will be the case. But looking back to 1997 to 2001, that was not the case. They've already sealed our fate.
And beyond 2009, unless serious and contentious decisions are made to make people work longer, and care for their own elderly parents at home rather than have the government provide home health aids and nursing homes (a cure for Alzheimers would help too), the cost of paying for the elderly (and interests on our debts) will absorb an ever-risng share of our tax dollars. If it doesn't happen by 2009 (or at least 2014), don't expect it to happen at all.
Did I mention that the Second Avenue Subway was NEVER funded for construction in the 2000-2004 capital plan?
Think about it this way. Let's say NYCT took your suggestion and began running 30 tph on the combined 2/3 (the presumed goal of any such repair). How does the 5 get to Flatbush, now? It can't fill a slot vacated by the 2, since it'll still have to wait for the 2 to clear the interlocking ahead, and now it's holding up the 3 behind it, "stealing" its slot.
The only solution is to rearrange either the interlocking or the service so that the 5 merges with the 2 or with the 5 but never both in close proximity. That means either allowing direct access from the express track to the Nostrand branch or banishing the 5 to Utica or New Lots.
Those who suggested that a solution would be to have all east side trains serve New Lots and all west side trains serve Flatbush haven't realized just how screwed up the Rogers junction is.
My suggestion, combined with some interlocking somewhere that allowed (3) and <5> to switch without interfering, or a fix to Flatbush station to allow more trains through, could make an "all express to New Lots, all local to Flatbush" solution possible. And unlike a complete overhall, no tracks would have to underpinned. It simply require building out of the south wall of the current tunnel. (though I don't know if buildings would have to be underpinned or not)
Or maybe my idea just sucks ;) I do appreciate the input.
Are you sure about that? Look at the track map again. As far as the local tracks are concerned, the Nostrand branch is a simple merge/diverge. Nothing unusual there. Problems only show up if you try to route trains between the Nostrand branch and the express tracks.
With a new switch from express to local added on the upper level between Kingston and Utica, the 2/3 and 4/5 would each be able to support 30 tph. The basic service plan would have the 2 local to Flatbush, the 3 local to New Lots, the 4 express to Utica, and the 5 express to Utica and then local to New Lots -- 15 tph each. Adjust as desired within the constraints imposed by the terminals. (It might be possible, for instance, to run 20 tph on the 2 and only 10 tph on the 3; if possible, that would certainly be a better fit to ridership needs.)
TA will not be touching this issue anytime soon, that's what I do know.
Connect the northbound Flatbush track directly with the express, using the local's path. Move the northbound local track over to make room for it. In fact, there would be a "Y" junction like at 36th St, where only the merge would be an issue, no trains crossing in front of each other.
Connect the southbound local track via flyunder to the New Lots local track, freeing the (3) train. This might require moving Kingston Av's eastbound platform a little bit (further to the east).
In fact, if there is sufficient room between the Franklin platform and
the Rogers junction, there may be room to hold a (2) to let a <5> pass without holding up the (3) behind it. So the only delays here would be the merges, but there will be no trains otherwise crossing paths.
And as for whatever they're planning to do at Flatbush terminal, if it doesn't either involve a small yard (like IND 174th size) or a loop track, it won't be much of an improvement, except that they can store gap trains, and the problem is not lateness but rather low TPH capacity. I don't see why FB has such low capacity in the first place, the track alignment is no different from the (7) at TSQ which handles trains at 2-minute intervals (i.e. 30 TPH).
The capacity of a stub terminal is limited by the amount of time the trains take going over the crossover. If the terminal has a bumper at the end of the station, then the train must go slowly into the station and over the crossover. This is what happens at FB and most of the other terminals. TSQ has tail tracks. This permits trains to enter the station at near normal speed. This is the essential difference between TSQ and FB. BTW, the Main St terminal has bumpers. Alternate locals are turned at 111th (morning) or Willets Pt (evening) because Main St cannot handle the service levels that TSQ can.
---Choo Choo
Missa wouldn’t be able to stand a whole thread in Jar-Jar Binks-speak!~
The concept seems prudent, but where'd they get 18 minutes from? Why not a round figure, like 15 or 20?
Unless it changed with the fare increase, it's four. I believe that's also the total number of times you can swipe within an 18 minute window before the card is locked out.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
: )
Mark
April 47th is the equivalent of May 17th, which in the TRUE Metric Calendar is 28 de Floreál (except in Gregorian leap years, when May 17th is 29 de Floreál)
This is almost certainly the answer. Since posting, I've discovered that there's another limitation. If you want a free transfer, it must be at least 6 minutes (0.1 hours) after you first swiped your card. So both limitations are in tenths of an hour.
The latter limitation seems gratuitous. Although it's uncommon to reach your transfer within 6 minutes, it's not impossible. And I don't think it would invite serious abuse if the free transfer were activated immediately.
Probably not, but if time keeping of minutes is kept to the 10th of an hour and one event is occurring after the other, then six minutes is the minimum time one action (the transfer) can follow the first one. The lockout prevents the computer from seeing both transactions as being simultaneous, and thus charging two full fares.
Tom
Most employee passes, my own included, work the same way. As soon as I swipe (in a station) or dip (on a bus), I'm locked out for six minutes.
PM if MN is on schedule, just enters the system GC at booth 238 a :00.
The connecting bus, well we won't even address that.
With MetroCard, they can trace your movements. >GG<
8-)~ Sparky
Interesting in that they can trace your movements but not to minute accuracy. I'm sure a good lawyer can talk that into reasonable doubt.
--Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Chuck Greene
Here we used to have "Top news, instantly!". Now we have nothing of the sort. "This is the WTOP Radio Network" is far less interesting.
Other than the above, I have no clue.
But who would be baking matzah in the summer?
Streit's, Manischevitz, Osem, et al... they have to make sure it's stale in time for seder... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, I do occasionally buy matzah during the year. What I don't get is that it's more expensive off-season, and the boxes are smaller, too (and the product often contains strange ingredients, like vegetable oil, that have no business being in matzah). I stock up around Pesach, but I have only finite storage space.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Peace,
ANDEE
I like kosher for passover soda: Sugar instead of corn syrup.
I've left my e-mail address so you don't have to boar the bored anymore.
Yes, I am not jewish.
I never like butter on Matzoh
(Why is this the appropriate measure? I have no idea.)
The Gemara talks about it. (This is the most popular non-responsive response I have encountered during my years of attending shiurim.)
Heh, well, I'm willing to buy from you if you make some. How's about 25 cents a matzoh? :)
After that the thread kind of took off from there.
Are you up on my offer? :)
And those are machine-made.
There are really two questions: (a) how is walking a mil relevant to chometz? and (b) how do we know it takes 18 minutes to walk a mil?
The gemara seems to offer (a) with no justification. (b) seems to postdate the gemara entirely.
I'll see if I can find a justification for (a) or a source for (b).
Not that that has anything to do with anything, but if you guys are here on July 3rd you should definetly attend the fireworks downtown, they aren't nearly as good as NYC, but still a nice show. What is really worth beign here for though is the Taste of Chicago. You can ride the L or better yet stay in the South Suburbs and Take Metra Electric right to the middle of the festival. Chicago has argueably the best food in the world and it all comes together at the Taste of Chicago. The tickets are a little high priced, but the food is worth it. I usually go atleast 2 or 3 times a year. This year I will probably not go that much thought, because I will only be here for the first two days and the rest I will be in California on vacation.
There are lots of CTA and Metra rides I could recommend, my top choices are
CTA: During the Taste of Chicago/July 4th the CTA yellow line Skokie Swift runs on Weekends, something worth riding. Also riding the red line between downtown and Howard is great. The yard alone at Howard makes the trip worth it, besides all the different neighborhoods and stations you will pass on the way. If you are here on a non-Holiday weekday make sure to ride the CTA Purple Line express between Howard and downtown. It is one of the best express rides the CTA has to offer. The whole CTA system is fun to ride, but these are my top recommendations for someone who has a limited amount of time.
Metra: Ride the Metra UP-W one-way to Oak Park from downtown, get lunch at Fridays or any of the good restaurants close to the station and take the Green Line back. The stations are adjacent, they share the same station house facility about 1/2 block west of Marion St. Also the Metra Electric Line between University Park and downtown is fun. Then for a contrast on your way back get off at 59th/University of Chicago and transfer to a South Chicago train to 93rd St. It runs mostly in the median of City streets all the way to 93rd. Another great ride is the BNSF to Aurora. Weekdays are best to ride with numerous express trains. It is fun to ride a local one-way and an express the other. Especially during rush hour when the express trains bypass the locals on the center track. It is a fun ride bypassing trains, people, and numerous street crossings at 70 mph. Also, the entire metra system is fun to ride, but these are my recommendations for a limited amount of time.
let me know if you want any info. on where to stay, eat, or anything else about my city.
BJ
The Trolley Pageant at IRM should be good this year. Last year we were up to an all-time high of 31 cars in the parade, and it is distinctly possible that that number will be raised by one or two cars in 2003. Also, there will be a lot of other events happening at IRM that weekend. After the Trolley Pageant there will be a jazz concert on the Museum grounds, and I believe there will be an ice cream social sorta thing (I'm not positive - that might only be Saturday and Sunday). This has to do with IRM's 50th Anniversary, which is this year.
Frank Hicks
The IND Set is currently at 207th St, while the IRT set is in the barn at Corona.
-Stef
Getting TLC @ 207th. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
8-) ~ Sparky
Should amuse many.
Had I ridden on 1575 back then, I would have known right away that sometihng was fishy. Its bull and pinion gears would have been a dead giveaway.
But I'm GLAD to see it's still alive, and can actually ROLL ...
Different windows?
I didn't notice a peep.
Right Click, Save Target As...(QuickTime Movie, 7.1MB, hosted on a fast connection)
-Stef
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Adam
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
--Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
--Mark
HAHA . . . another old fart....
Peace,
ANDEE
As long as you feel young, then you are young. But to just to give you a better idea of my age, this was probably the first computer I ever used. My pre-school program was on a college campus, and one day they took us to the computer lab to see the new computers. I remember that to this day, and it is one of my earliest memories of anything.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Great video! I was on that train. It was pretty cool....Can't wait until the trips next month!
-Mark
---Choo Choo
If so, what kind of effects would the cars experience from sitting still for 27 years? Anything? They were out of the elements.
---Choo Choo
If this consist came in on the "Times Square northbound" trackway...
how would it switch/crossover/relay out to CORONA from TIMES SQR??
By foot, yes, Times Square go downstairs to catch the 7 out to
the Home of the World Champions (c/ 1986)... and you're in CORONA.
1____ HOW WOULD A TRAIN CONSIST MAKE THE MOVE TO CORONA if it comes out appearing at
"Times Square northbound"....
2____ Better yet HOW DID IT GET FROM THE MUSEUM to "Times Square northbound" (IIRC Museum trackage is IND-linked)
(I assume Times Square northbound means the 1/2/3/9 platform
as I've yet to sight the video)
(DOWNLOAD IN PROGRESS)
I ASS-U-MED it was 1/2/3/9 and was stumped how the connection
would be made to the 7 Tracks....
Thanks to Clayton for that clip!!!
Next time I'll wait to SEE Video clip BEFORE asking Questions... hehehe :)
I ASS-U-MED it was 1/2/3/9 and was stumped how the connection
would be made to the 7 Tracks....
Thanks to Clayton for that clip!!!
Next time I'll wait to SEE Video clip BEFORE asking Questions... hehehe :)
How do they get from Times Square BMT to CORONA YARD..
QBP to the 7 trackage seems the most obvious...
Much Thanks (again!!!) to Clayton for that reel... too @#%#@$# rad!!
FIFTH TIME ASKING... No one seems to comprehend the QUESTION...
What PATH (not Hoboken) does that train take to get to CORONA from
that TIMES SQR platform...
It's the BMT Platform... that I know...
How does it get to CORONA from THERE??
Does it go NORTH to Queensboro Plaza and switch to the 7 tracks?
Does it go NORTH to Queens Plaza and reverse into 2nd Avenue and bring life to the tunnel?
Does it go NORTH to Astoria and do a cameo on Sesame Street?
WHAT TRACK PATTERN WOULD IT TAKE TO GET FROM THE (YES THE BMT) BMT
PLATFORM AT TIMES SQUARE OUT TO CORONA??
Can you tell me how to get, how to get that train out to CORONA YARD??
(Thankgahd they weren't transported under 'tarp' coverage) ;)
--Mark
Chuck Greene
---Choo Choo
...Printing THAT out RIGHT NOW...that's TWICE I've been stopped for taking photos. I shall now carry and guard that like my keys and money. Funny thing though, one cop that questioned me actually seemed more nervous than I was, and I can't even stand still, let alone withstand questioning. At Roosevelt Island, of all places, you'd think they would be more friendly to tourists. ONE picture and he shows up out of thin air.
--Mark
Some guys have all the luck. LOL!
Things will get more interesting when it comes time to transfer the set from Corona to the mainline IRT.....
--Mark
-Stef
Where is the train set in Corona. I look there so many times while taking the 7 and never see it.
---Choo Choo
And where would that be? Thanks!
The A Division Cars at Corona Yard.... thus I was asking how
the A Division Cars got from the BMT Platform out to Corona..
Nothin' about 207, brah!! ; )
It was set up to appease F riders who had lost their convenient Lex Line connection when the F was re-routed through the 63rd St tunnel. From comments I've read on various boards, it doesn't seem that there are many F riders who considered this an acceptable substitute. You can say what you like about the V train, but a 4-block walk outdoors ain't much of a transfer.
"Why can't it be extended to other points in the system?"
Good question, and it would seem there are other places where it makes sense--e.g., Livonia Avenue (L) and Junius St (3).
It's not the three-block walk that's a pain -- it's the long ascent to the surface from the F. Extend the express (4/5) platforms north from 60th to 63rd and install direct staircases and elevators to the F platforms and this will instantly become a very popular transfer point.
IINM, the 4/5 passes above the F at 63/Lex, so installing the new passageway above the 4/5 would require unnecessary climbing and would make the new transfer a bit less attractive than it could be.
But I'd be happy to have either.
To give an idea of what's involved, the plans for rebuilding Lower Manhattan's infrastructure originally included a "Rector Connector" between the two downtown Rector St stations. If I recall correctly, that project was estimated at somewhere like $100m, or more. It was dropped from the plans, because the connection is going to be built at South Ferry instead (and there could be a connection at Cortlandt St before we're done).
Anyhow, the transfer you're talking about would certainly be no less complicated than the Rector Connector, so you're talking about a fairly expensive proposition.
Worth doing, because (as others have said) the sclepp up to the street and down again take time. The project I'm waiting for is the new transfer at Bleeker (northbound) and Houston, giving F riders access to the 6. That will save time to Grand Central vs. a ride up to 42nd and a transfer to the #7.
However, you do lose your bus transfer when you use the out of system transfer.
Jay/IND to Lawrence/BMT or Borough Hall/IRT and BMT
Atlantic Ave/Pacific St to either Fulton St/G line or Lafayette Ave/C line
Queens Plaza to Queensboro Plaza
7th Ave/53rd st Manhattan (IND) to 55th st entrance at 57/7 (BMT)
59th St./CC (IND/IRT) also to 57/7 (BMT Main entrance)
Simpson St (WPR line) to Hunts Point Ave (Pelham)
Only a new free transfer, called the Jay-Lawrence connection is planned, other transfers are not feasible or cost effective.
There are two other out-of-system transfers that I'm aware of: Court Square/23rd-Ely to 45th Road, and 51/Lex to 53/Lex (specifically to accomodate the morning rush, when the in-system transfer from the 6 is closed off, but the free swipe is active all day and in both directions).
IMO, especially now that the Fun Pass is so expensive, the two-hour free transfer period should be converted into a two-hour unlimited ride period.
Is that correct?
IMO, Queens-bound trains should have stopped at Lex and Manhattan-bound trains should have bypassed. Passengers from Queens have better alternate routes (F, R, 7, J/Z, depending on origin). 5th Avenue is a mob scene because E passengers from the south have no decent alternate routes, and the occasional passenger who doesn't realize what's going on (after all, it's not on the map) is dragged all the way out to Queens.
Precisely. Although not advertised this way, the practical effect is that, at these stations, you can transfer from anything to anything.
At the MEM: "Card not valid"
The fair comtroler used a play with words to imply otherwise. what the comptroler called two sets of books was two sets of preposed budgets no different then the two sets of budget preposals Mayor Bloomberg has layed foward
1st budget - The doomsday budget based on the federal and stae government nor helping plug the budget whole
2nd budget - fewer layoffs based on more funding
Mr. hevesi under questioning from the NY Times admitted that the MTA used the money raised from the bond sales to pay down debt occued by capitol projects that were at a higher interest rate and were coming due over the three year period
If the MTA would use the money derived by issuing debt to pay for operations it would be no different then what the MTA did in the 1970's for which was part of the reason why the subways declined
It is time that those who screem the MTA is not clear enough with it's disclosure to issue clear factual knowledge themselves. The straphangers campaign and the two comptrolers reports did not back up WITH FACTs all ther eassertions in their report. In fact the straphangers campaign is sending out emails touting false information to wip up a frenzy
The MTA under Kalikow has done an OK job managing the MTA's finace. I give them a B. They retired older higher rate debt with new lower interest debt resulting in a $600 million in cash which they used to pay off more high rate debt. If they woud have used that money for operations that debt would have incured more interest and would still have to be paid off next year and the year after
I don't blame NYCT for desiring to curb hoarding, but violating contracts is not a good way to go about it. At the very least, once the details of the fare hike were set, MVM's should have displayed the actual expiration date on the screen. There is certainly no legal justification for not honoring Fun Passes purchased before then.
I'm not going to sue. Perhaps someone else will.
The MTA is full of Paturkey appointees. 'nuff said ...
---Choo Choo
I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think I can be held to the terms of a contract if I need to execute the contract before I can see its terms.
If the tarriff were available in token booths or even online, I'd agree.
Still, I'm curious to hear what the tarriff says.
And to think, we RE-ELECT these bastards!
She also claimed that I had to mail in one card with a slight crease since her machine couldn't read it, even though the MEM's have no trouble with it.
I had a creased card. Worked fine on the bus but couldn't be re-filled at Lex/63. It had $1 on it, so I had to refill it (this was in 1997, I would put $5 on my card each time). By the time I got it back, I didn't need a Metrocard anymore. I ended up using it eventually.
I don't know about trades, but the limit for purchases is 5 cards.
>>....She also claimed that I had to mail in one card with a slight crease since her machine couldn't read it, even though the MEM's have no trouble with it
If the card comes up on the computer as damaged (computer shows an error), we can do nothing with the card. You'll get a mailer and send the damaged card to Jay St.
If the card is damaged. Be it something simple or major, the Agent can't do nothing with the card. The latest software won't allow some cards from being handled.
-Stef
The only thing I can think of is that the (F) uses mostly R46s while the (E) uses mostly R32s. An R32 is usually a somewhat jerkier ride than an R46, which might provide the illusion of speed.
:-) Andrew
Best way to test the actual speed, see how long it takes on the "E" from Roosevelt to West 4th...and then time the "F" from Roosevelt to West 4th. =)
Actually, considering that the F uses R32 equipment as well, how about sending an R46 set (ABBAABBA arrangememnt, not AAAAABBA, AABAABBA or ABAAABBA arrangement, where A is a motor cab and B is a trailer car) first, then sending an R32 set about 5 minutes later, both on the F line.
N Bwy
The Queens Blvd line have too many timers (especially in the W/B direction) along the express track to allowed trains to reach max speed.
Was that an R46 trainset you mentioned that was on the E line, a rare sight indeed? Or did you meant to mention the F train?
I think you're referring to the Energy Conservation switch. The 60' cars have them too.
What does this do?
David
And this makes the express exaggerated in many cases, saving at the most, what, 5 minutes over the local?
Unfortunately, many Anti-V people don't understand this concept...or they do and blame the V for other asinine issues like the 'increase of congestion on the E' or 'the decrease of usefulness on the F.'
You forgot the inconveience of G train riders unable to directly access Broadway line (R train at Queens Blvd) service because of this "only at rush hour does it have no seats, other times the train is empty", V line.
Let's see what people think now. Was the V worth putting on considering the neagtives that were created?
Just another data point.
---Choo Choo
I didn't get a reading on the return trip because someone was sitting there and he looked at me funny when I tried to climb around him.
:-o Andrew
Certain posters say the E is actually more crowded, the F has become more useless now that it's running through the 63 St. connector and the G has been cut down....all to the V train. Is this blame game justified?
A somewhat (i.e. not much, but at least feasible) better alternative would've been to extend the (Q) from 21/Queensbridge to provide local service in Queens-better yet, with (Q) via QB local and via QB exp, they might be able to fit the EFGQR all at once, only adding in half a route each to the local and express. The (V) is totally useless without trains to Brooklyn-even if all of them (F/G/V) were locals in Brooklyn, it would be more purposeful.
The V gives direct access between the Queens Boulevard local stations and the popular 53rd Street and 6th Avenue lines.
Your modification gives Queens Boulevard local passengers two different routes to Broadway but still no access to 53rd or 6th.
Your modification also feeds too much service into both the local and the express. The Q is two routes sharing a letter, not one (think about it -- the circle-Q replaced the D in Brooklyn; the diamond-Q replaced the Q in Brooklyn). Even if you were only adding half a route to each track, there still wouldn't be room.
It's unfortunate that the G had to lose its direct service on Queens Boulevard, but the current service pattern serves Queens Boulevard local passengers much better. G passengers have an easy (yes, easy) transfer to a Queens Boulevard express, a Queens Boulevard local, the Flushing line, and three distinct Manhattan routes. I wish I had such easy access to the Queens Boulevard express or to the 6th Avenue line!
The only big disadvantage I can think of is that it would probably freeze during winter or get kncked over in a sevre storm. Then again, a good number of subways aren't in climates where you would worry about that.
So why was the third rail picked over pantographs for subways?
But I can somwhat agree with you....catenary wiring offers safer operation and trains can operate faster. If I remember correctly, 3rd rail has a speed limit due to the amount of friction. I'm going to say 80mph...I could be wrong...please correct me if I am.
They use catenary on some of the lines of the Madrid & Barcelona metros.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think a good number of lines in Japan do, too.
--Mark
Mark
Sao Paulo is building two subway lines right now that use overhead, I've ridden one of them already. And these aren't lightweight subways either. Line 4, which is under construction has a projectd ridership of 1 MILLION people per day on a 12 km line. Line 5, which is linked here, when completed, will have 500,000 people riding it per day.
Geeyeeeez. Makes me wonder: Where the hell'll they all be going to? The movies, work, shopping, their pals place....all that, in a corridor less than 5 miles long....in Brazil, no less. That's um, that's surprising. Just how dense is it down there? And the economy must be swingin' cause that's a whole lot of traveling.
So I guess this means we can cut off the aid we give Brazil, if any. Sounds like they don't need it.
I have a brouchure of the new line issued by the Metro company to the public which says the population of the area the line will serve is approximately 3.5 million. The Line is also being financed by loans from the World Bank and a Japanese Bank; they have to pay them back. The line itself will be run by a private company for 20 years, and then it'll be turned over to the Metro company.
7 million people ride the bus system every day. The current subway system has less than 60 km of route but has over 2 million people riding everyday. The busiest line in the system sees close to 900,000 people per day and it's only 22 km long with 18 stations. The current subway is bursting at the seams. As you can see, there is a high demend for more subway service and it's long overdue. The density is no doubt there, too.
It has nothing to do with the economy. The economy down there isn't too good right now. But the city has so many people and over half uses public transportation everday. Even if there is high uneployment,. you're still going to have millions of people with jobs and they need to get there somehow. BTW, this post is neither supporting or condemning the need for aid down there.
When *our* subways were built, we had less automobiles too!
And soon we too shall have fewer cars, when we CLOSE MANHATTAN to private vehicles!
: ) Elias
It's a bitch, ain't it, when our personal railfan desires conflict with what "the rest of `em" want to do. The trend does seem to be altering somewhat nationally. My home page is set on Googles' news search page, with transit as the search query. So many bus and train systems being planned out there in the hinterlands! The logic is spreading, and not so slowly either. Seems as if every city wants rail transit or BRT lines or commuter rail.
It's a bitch, ain't it, when our personal railfan desires conflict with what "the rest of `em" want to do. The trend does seem to be altering somewhat nationally. My home page is set on Googles' news search page, with transit as the search query. So many bus and train systems being planned out there in the hinterlands! The logic is spreading, and not so slowly either. Seems as if every city wants rail transit or BRT lines or commuter rail.
Would you like your surfer well done?
During lunch as I was watching an HBLR car go by I was thinking about the same thing (I went to lunch before you posted this). And I also came up with the same reasons that the others did (except for the subway surfer one).
If you look at a catenary wire, it is under high tension. It is possible to walk on the wire (w/o the electric current) but even if the electric power is lost, the catenary wires still have power going through them (this is a technical spec which I shall find the webpage for. I've seen this on a very helpful webpage about catenary wires).
Catenary wires are suitable for high-speed travel, which the Subway doesn't see. My categorization of high speed is 80mph or more. It's not needed to waste the efficiency of a motor by constantly stopping and not using the speed capability of what the motor is designed for. (i.e. 30mph on a motor designed for 100mph). I don't know if there can be low-speed (60mph like the R142(A)'s) configured for catenary wires but I may be wrong. The wires also carry a much higher voltage than 3rd rail (modern ones are set at 25,000V) and this kind of voltage is not needed for slow-speed, intracity travel.
So be nice to it guyz, OK? :)
--Mark
For the most part, third-rail preceded overhead catenary wire for heavy-rail applications. Mostly has to do with precedent—when the London Underground electrified, it used energized rails next to the tracks. The success of this expanded to US railroads, notably the NY Central and the Pennsylvania Railroad (PRR initially, that is, until it looked at the NHRR and NYWB and their catenary systems, thenceforth building the LIRR with the third-rail).
Third-rail was a natural for the els and the newer subway systems, what with the simplicity of construction, ease of access, and the added deterrent of keeping trespassers off the rails for fear of accidentally turning themselves into a “ground” and becoming fried “turkey” after a fashion. Even some streetcar systems embraced third-rail, like the Third Avenue Railway System in Manhattan which was formerly cable-powered like today’s cable cars in San Francisco (simple matter of putting the third-rail into the vault that previously held the cable).
Also, the use of third-rail permitted lower clearances in the cut-&-cover and tunnel sections of the subway, leading to lower construction costs and less to clean up post-construction.
Mind you, there are some oddities concerning third-rail, what with the NY Central using overhead third-rail within Grand Central Terminal so that locomotives could bridge the gaps when going over switches (nowadays de-energized, pity too since the P32AC-DMs could use it)…incidentally, the first subway in the US is Boston’s Green Line, a light-rail system that uses overhead wire.
As for other reasons why third-rail was chosen, I’ll defer to others and will accept correction as necessary…
Not for the issue you believe. Manhattan prohibited overhead wires - for anything. This came about after the Blizzard of 1883 brought telegraph and electric wires down all over the island.
When both Third Avenue and Metrolpolitan (later New York Railways) converted to electricity in the early years of the twentieth century they did install the electric rails (both positive and negative conductors were in the conduit, the rails were not used in the electric circuit) in the cable conduit, but later the conduits were rebuilt heaver and shorter for electric use.
Not really. Positive and negative only have meaning with respect to something else. In this (and many other) cases, that common reference is ground. The running rails are held at ground potential, so you can think of them as zero volts.
The third rail is nominally 600 volts from ground, and therefore, 600 volts from the running rails. I'm not sure whether it's 600 below or 600 above. You are correct in that this will identify the direction of electron flow, but the "source of electrons" isn't related to what we think of as the "source of electricity."
There are some four-rail (or second third-rail) electrifications, for example, in London, where one power rail is above 0V and the other is below 0V; in these cases, the voltage difference between the two power rails is what counts, even though the voltage to ground is never that high. (Then there are other fourth-rail electrifications where one of the power rails is bonded to ground.)
Mark
Third rail can deliver thousands of amps, overhead can't. That's why they use such high voltages on mainlines.
Pure silver has a resistance of 1.642x10-8 ohm/m
Pure gold has a resistance of 2.643x10-8 ohm/m
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Easy way to get a rough idea of potential HP, though it doesn't take motor losses or inversion/conversion/control losses into effect, is to multiply the amps times the volts (which gives you watts) and divide by 750 (rough Watt->HP conversion). It's not 100% accurate, but it gives you an idea of what's possible. You'll note that even at fairly high HP ratings, on a 25kv system, the currents involved are rather small - if your wall outlet was at 25,000 volts, you could power up a single NJ arrow with it :)
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
A Train - R44 #5271
A Train - R44 #5403
Doesn't the resistivity of a conductor depend upon it's cross-sectional area? If that is true then 3rd rail's very large cross section compared to the rather narrow cross section of standard trolley overhead would mean that the resistance of a given section of 3rd rail would be much lower than a length of Trolley overhead. And if all this is true, then it would make sense to do 3rd rail as opposed to trolley overhead, since you would have smaller voltage drops over the same distance as a trolley overhead. It could be seen as as much of an economic as anything else, fewer substations needed, pretty simple decision.
rho=(A/L)R
rho=resistivity
A=area of x-section
L=Length of object
R=Resistance
The larger the area, the higher the resistivty, the lower the resistance. There is more area for the electrons to pass, so any imperfections that create more resistance won't affect the total resistance as much as a smaller aera would.
R=Resistance,
rho=Resistivity,
L=Length,
A=area.
We can probably assume that rho is the same for both, copper, or something with similar properties, we're not talking using gold for one and polystyrene for the other. And L will be the same, as will R, for our purposes, in a function form it'd be F(x)=A(B/x). Thus as area DECREASES, Resistance increases.
Don't worry about it, all you did was mess up a stupid and largely non-applicable (IIRC you're Civ Eng, right?) formula. Check under "Strappie Sue" to see my 6th order of magnitude screwup. Yes, I was off by 100,000!
Yes, I'm a Civil Engineering major, and this stuff is mostly useless for me. Material Science is a class for my major pretty much for the one section about the atomic arrangment relates to strength of the material. I had a choice between taking MSE or Circuits, I'm glad I didn't take Circuits, since that is a weed-out course for the EE school, which means it's hard as hell.
I'm in the basic engineering stuff at Drexel, you have to declare an area, Business, Comp Sci, Engineering or Nursing right off the bat, and they're VERY proud of their tDEC (the Drexel Engineering Experience) garbage. So far almost all the engineering I've learned is Software, Electrical, and Chemical, CivE need not apply. I'm hoping things'll get better, they're supposed to have a great transportation planning emphasis inside CivE, so that sounds interesting, assuming I survive Freshman Year.
Good Luck at school
Yabut...
Power loss decreases as voltage increases. Third rail electrifications usually run at lower voltages, under 1kV. Overhead catenary electrifications usually run at higher voltages, like 25kV. As far as power loss goes, this more than makes up for the third rail's lower resistance.
In practice, you'll find that substations are placed much further apart where high voltages are used as compared to low voltages. Comparitively, the lowest voltages, like the 120V or 240V we're all familiar with, need "substations" (transformers) placed very closely.
Mark
Does anyone know if BART could have done Overhead effectively? Don't they use a 1200Vdc 3rd rail? That would mean a halving of the current, which would mean that voltage drop would also be lowered. Could this have allowed the use of thinner overhead catenary instead of 3rd rail? Or did their large, fast vehicles require more current, making the switch to 1200vdc necessary to avoid massive voltage drops at anything more than a half mile from a substation?
Thanks
Now the BART Rolling Stock section of this site says that they use 4 150hp motors per car, so 4*150 = 600 hp just for power, and that's 447,000 watts per car, figure 1000 watts for HVAC and lighting (is this too low?), so its now 448KW per car, and in a 10 car train (max given on this site) thats 4,480,000 watts per train. Which means that to get that amount on a 1000VDC 3rd rail you need 4480 amps!
How do NYC subway cars compare to this? I note that the R142 has 150hp motors, but is it one motor per axle, or one per truck?
Most certainly not. Resistivity is a fixed property of the
conductor material. Resistance, on the other hand, is
resistivity divided by area and multiplied by length, so it
varies by how long vs how fat the conductor is.
At any rate, the wire used in catenary overhead systems, 0-0-0-0
hard-drawn copper, has a continuous rating of about 500 amperes
and a peak rating of about 2000. That is far too small to power
a subway train, which can peak (NYCT cars) at about 700 amps
PER CAR. Overhead wire used at "low" voltages (approx 600 DC)
is for streetcars or short LRV trains. When you see catenary
over heavy rail (e.g. the Northeast Corridor) it is high-voltage
(e.g. 11kV-25kV).
High-voltage overhead conductors are a big problem in tunnels
because of clearance distances required from the grounded tunnel
roof. It would be impossible to retrofit such a system into
the current NYCT tunnels.
On the Blue in Boston, they regularly have a shop guy up on the roof at Orient Heights checking pantos for damage.
1 hour babysitting a broken hanger. (my last, at least another for the next guy and the power crew..... minor service delays.)
4 hours on defective signal/ trip. (during a crew change for signal maintainers.)
3 hours babysitting passengers and trains. (which I was scheduled to do for 8 hours.)
*Note 0 hours on the 3rd rail!
These trains run at the lowest speeds out of the entire Metra system. Top speed is 65 mph, whereas the other diesel lines and South Shore range from 70-79 mph maxes with grade crossings.
Seems really stupid to me. Metra could have a high speed line, if they put some money into the Electric Line main line. After all, only one private road crossing, this means it could potentially have no speed limit. Yet trains on some of the diesel lines that cross right through the middle of busy suburbs go almost 20 mph faster at 79 mph max.
I know the reason is probably cost, but anybody know what it would potentially take and cost to make the electric Line main line high speed??
The other volumes in William D Middleton’s "Traction Trilogy" are "Time of the Trolley" and "The Interurban Era" William D Middleton is recognizes as the foremost authority on railroad electrification I will note that When The Steam Railroads Electrified was originally published in 1974 it has sense been updated and was republished in 2002.
Other volumes written by Middleton on railroad electrification
Grand Central, the World's Greatest Railway Terminal
The Pennsylvania Railroad Under Wire
North Shore
South Shore; The Last Interurban
From Bullets to Bart
John
Grand Central, the World's Greatest Railway Terminal
The Pennsylvania Railroad Under Wire
North Shore
South Shore; The Last Interurban
From Bullets to Bart
And his newest: Metropolitan Railways.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Primarily a photo album, but with lots of brief, informative prose as well. A nice feature is an appendix with biographical data on the photographers.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Course, now for another question. SP's Oakland electrification used 1200VDC, which allowed the amperage to drop enough that overhead catenary could be used without appreciable losses along the line. Now, why couldn't a similar system be used by later subways? I know that 1200vdc power wasn't around until 1907, precluding it's use on the IRT and BMT, but certainly other systems could have used it.
Jaap van Dorp
Danbury Engineer.
Do you know why Central was knocked down?
Also, do you have the whole list of NH towers with PC names and SS numbers?
Is a newspaper THAT desperate to sell at any price it claims to be "authentic" and "original" stories?
Yes.
"Become"?? They've been a "cheap tabloid paper" for decades!!
I've been reading a few posts about service late at night and during the over-night hours. I was just wondering, what kind of ridership levels exist on the various lines at, say, three o'clock in the morning? Are riders none-existant at these times or are the subways still reasonably busy?
Thanks in advance
Tim
I'm pleased to say that I've never been on the subway at 3am. I have, however, been on a crush loaded 2 train at 1:30am.
According to the Weekday Cordon Count 1996, the most crowded route across the CBD boundary between 3 and 4am was the southbound 4 at 86th Street, with 341 passengers on three trains, and the least crowded was the northbound J at Essex Street, with 35 passengers on three trains.
Buses are notably emptier. Between 3 and 4am, outbound buses had a total of 14 passengers across the CBD boundary and inbound buses had a total of 11 passengers. Total. All bus routes combined, all CBD crossings combined.
Tho I remember being on a sb 2 train once at 1130pm FRIDAY coming
from E 233 into NYC and it was packed loaded...
I think it's remarkable that, through all of the lean years, practically the entire NYC subway system has remained open 365x24x7, rather than trying to pick-and-choose which stations have insufficient traffic to justify remaining open at all hours. I'm sure there are stations where the fares collected overnight don't even cover the booth clerk's salary. But overall, the system is better because we can ride the subway at any time.
As an aside, am I right that the only stations not open at all times are Broad/Fulton on the J (closed weekends) and 145/148 on the #3 (closed late nights)?
Until 1990, all stations were open 24/7. That's when the 3 shuttle train turned into a shuttle bus and the weekend J was cut back from Broad to Canal. (It was extended to Chambers in 1994.)
It depends what you consider a station. The MTA says there are 468 stations in the system, but in fact you'd come up with a smaller number if each "station complex" counted just once. I haven't added them up myself, but I believe that if two stations were originally separate, the MTA counts them as distinct stations in the total of 468, even if free transfers were built later. This makes some sense, as originally separate stations usually have at least one dedicated fare control, in addition to passageway access from other platforms.
According to one study I read--I think by the Permanent Citizens' Advisory Committee--the weekend closure of the J at Fulton Street confuses a fair number of riders. The area is rather heavily trafficked on weekends, thanks to the South St Seaport. I think this closure will be a good candidate for re-evaluation in the next few years, especially as the post-9/11 construction will continue to bring new activity to the area outside of the traditional business hours.
The area around Broad & Wall, on the other hand, is pretty deserted on weekends, but I think it would be worth extending the J to Broad St at all times, so that the Fulton St platforms can remain open.
I think it would be easier to install HXTs at Broad, and allow people to exit there if they want to. Otherwise, the crew needs to make sure every train has been emptied before leaving Fulton St.
I'd be happy either way. Some would complain if Broad doesn't have an S/A on duty; personally, I don't care. The big benefit is access to the transfers at Fulton.
Incidentally, this was one of the temporary benefits of the brief 9/19/01 service plan: both J and M trains continued south of Chambers at all times (except the first weekend, when there weren't enough crews available, so the M ran as a Myrtle shuttle and a Sea Beach shuttle).
There is no T/D the weekend T/D at Broad, not TW/O.
Just this Sunday, I helped two passengers get to the J from Fulton. (Actually, one wanted the M. Two transfers!)
It also becomes a real pain to reach the A/C and especially the 2/3 from the J without the Fulton transfer point.
It's narrow and twisty:
Traian such as the brigton Q/broadway express run at times with 30-50% of its seats filled at 3 am. The reason it is busy is partly because the trains only come 3 times(20 min headways) an hour with full length trains
Most lines would be better off running shorter trains with shorter headways. This would attract those who now avoid tthe subways overnight and on weekends and either now drive in, take car service home or just do not come into the city at all
This includes people looking to travel within manhattan who after 9 pm take cabs everywehre brcasue of the long headways.
The main problem with overnight service is if you need to transfer from one line to another to complete your trip it is hard to do so becasue you will be waiting up to 20 min for both trains. If you miss your train it may take longer to wait for the next train then the total trip time
To create crowded trains. The theory was that muggers prefer to work on nearly deserted cars.
I know this is a favored stance on your part. I would add that if it were ever implemented, there sure as hell aughta be "significant signage" related to the change. As in prominent Nightime Waiting Area notification...probably, beyond what the LIRR does with the stripes on the platform edge. Or else the confusion will be great. Now, the feasibility of Transit actually doing this is slim. I think the problem of which section of the platform to designate as nightime service area is bigger than you suppose. Plus, I have my doubts on the TA increasing headways on the new short train consists. That part of it would gradually be forgotten and soon enough, we'd go back to that 20 minute headway. Which still ain't bad. Whaddya expect at 3:30 in the morning?
On another note, I also remember the train going abnormally fast in the tunnel-felt like over 50-my mother insists it was because I hadn't rode the subway in nearly a year, but I insisted it was faster, and later found I was right. T/O's shoot right through red GT signals at just over intended speed and I don't even see them clear-only the stop arm goes up just before the train passes. Hmmm...first an (L) wreck at Grahm, then Bushwick/Aberdeen, next will be at 1st Ave. I actually find that railfan window ride to be quite scary nowadays. You don't KNOW that the signal isn't red because of a train in front, because many of the signals lack a lower white aspect, or even an S.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Michael
Washington, DC
But I get my arse up in the air with each and every one of these myself. It's time to put this to a stop and install missile launchers in the cab.
It sure doesn't come from "organized" religion or blowhards like William Bennett, who just had his soles held to the flames. Just for the record, I like to gamble, and apologize for veering off topic.
I have greater faith in the sense of the framers of our Constitution; they can't be called "Founding Fathers" in the PC world - too sexist.
For those who wish to be our domestic Taliban, all I ask is that they put it back in their pants before stepping up to the podium. :)
Do you need a photo pass to take digital video on the MTA?
Thanks,
Larry
Do you need a photo pass to take digital video on the MTA?
Thanks,
Larry
The MTA *could* do itself a BIG favor by revising its rules and require the obtaining of a permit, but placing itself into a legal "no man's land" invites a lawsuit. Then again, I worked for the geniuses who run the Paturkey farm - they'll never see it coming. :(
Can't wait to hear what law or regulation this person violated and the basis of their "violation" ... can't call it "false arrest" if they were handed a summons though ... this might turn out to be QUITE the amusing story. Especially if they get a lawyer.
You just don't get it. In these days with the need for heightened homeland security, it is necessary to keep rules changes secret so they cannot be used against us. :-)
Tom
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Or the officer could have seen the individual as the train was entering the station.
--Mark
Original note makes it seem as tho the summons was PRE-written.
SUCKS either way cuz just 3 years ago you could do it all and nil.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Quite possibly. Lights aren't permitted.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
ancillary
adj : relating to something that is added but is not essential
How is the flash built into the camera "something that is added but not essential?" My reading of the law seems to say that any non-built-in flashes would be illegal. But the flash is an essential part of photography, in that most cameras come with one and it is considered part of the camera. So I think that either built-in flashes are allowed, or that the law is just worded poorly. If built-in flashes are illegal, the law should say:
Photography, filming, or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that flash photography and ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors, or tripods may not be used.
Its not including flash as "ancillary equipment" but rather prohibiting flashes specifically.
These are prohibited for obvious reasons.
Tripods: safety issue. Many morons in NY will walk right into a tripod. Stupidity is king in NY.
Lights, reflectors and flashes can distract an incoming T/O.
--Mark
--Mark
I have written you..
(gives you the chance to *FLASH* the cops if and where desired).
I guess you never read the book, Catch 22. The corollary to "Permit Required" is "No permits issued."
Tom
--Mark
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
That's because when #2755 was OOS from the accident, someone swiped two of the number boards. After repairs to the car body were made, it returned to service with the stick on numbers running ever since.
I don't know why original replacement number boards were made.
Bill "Newkirk"
You mean make replacement number boards ? I think they can, they had a contractor make the original ones for the fleet when new. They could manufacture two new ones to the T.A.'s spec.
Bill "Newkirk"
#3 West End Jeff
Peace,
ANDEE
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
This is what you said.
Don't worry about it, it's no big deal really. Just being a nitpick.
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm in a bit of a tricky situation here. I believe I have printed out all the necessary paperwork for the T/O application (its available online). However, the MTA has not put the official notice of examination online yet. I have to work all day tomorrow, and therefore cannot make it to transit headquarters (I live in CT). It says online to read the notice of examination before sending in the paperwork, which does make sense. But I want to have my mailing be postmarked on the first day (5/7), because that can help with the order of call backs.
Here is a list of all the paperwork that I have. Am I missing anything, or is it safe for me to send my application in without reading the official notice of examination? Obviously I will have to get the actual test date, which I'll find out in the near future.
1. Application for Examination
2. Application Supplement
3. Education and Experience Test Paper (Sections A-D)
4. $45.00 postal money order
Thanks,
Nick
Just try not to crash the train. That may lessen your chances in getting the job. :)
Sounds to me like you've got everything in line... 'xcept I remember
the listing mentioning that it was "Preliminary" and could be subject
to addendum or change... prior to enactment.
GOOD LUCK to ya, brah!
First time around...wish me luck
--Z--
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcas/pdf/trainoperator.pdf
National Railroad Passenger Corporation
60 Massachusetts Avenue, NE
Washington, DC 20002
www.amtrak.com
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: Media Relations, 202 906-3860
ATK-03-066
May 6, 2003
AMTRAK CUSTOMER CARE TEAM RESPONDS TO SCENE OF SILVER STAR GRADE CROSSING INCIDENT
WASHINGTON - An Amtrak customer care team has arrived in Liberty County, Ga. to provide assistance to the passengers and crew of the Silver Star, which was involved in a grade crossing accident earlier today.
The Silver Star, train 91, derailed at 7:20 a.m. E.D.T. after striking a lumber truck at a marked grade crossing in Hinesville, Ga., approximately 26 miles north of Jesup. The train, which was en route from New York to Miami, had 150 passengers and 14 crewmembers aboard at the time of the accident.
Updated reports indicate that there were 27 injuries to passengers and crew. Of the injured, 19 passengers and four crewmembers were treated and released at Liberty Medical Center. Two passengers are being treated at Winn Army Hospital at Fort Stewart, Ga. A third passenger was being transported to St. Joseph's Hospital in Savannah. The engineer, who was the most seriously injured, was admitted to Memorial Health University Medical Center in Savannah.
Uninjured passengers have been taken to the Charles M. Schumann Recreation Center in Hinesville, Ga., where the Amtrak customer care team is arranging for alternate transportation, lodging, and other needs. Friends and relatives of passengers and crewmembers of train 91 may call 1-800-523-9101 for information.
Amtrak will provide bus transportation around the incident scene between Savannah and Jacksonville until the track is reopened. Passengers traveling through this area may expect delays up to 5 hours as a result of the incident. Auto Train service between Sanford, Fla. and Lorton, Va. has been cancelled today. Passengers are encouraged to call 1-800-USA-RAIL for updated information on delays and alternate transportation.
The accident occurred at a crossing marked by standard X-shaped railroad warning signs on track owned, operated and maintained by CSX Transportation. According to police at the scene, the driver of the truck was fatally injured in the accident. The authorized track speed in the area is 79 m.p.h.
Train 91 departed New York Penn Station yesterday at 11:30 a.m. and was scheduled to arrive in Miami today at 5:20 p.m. Major intermediate station stops included Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, Richmond, Raleigh, and Savannah.
Of course they did... all zero of them... there weren't any Superliners on that train, just Amfleets and Viewliners (and possibly a Heritage diner). Superliners can't make it to NYP.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, the Crescent is a Penn train. So's the one that derailed, which was the Silver Star.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mark
Obviously you haven't read any of the news articles that have been published (here's the one on CNN.com that I linked in another thread) or Amtrak's press release.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Fox or MSNBC? To them, anything south of Washington is "near Atlanta".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Jersey Mike shoots himself in the foot!!!
Have fun, Mike >:)
There were further reductions to the Els in later years. The 3rd Avenue El was curtailed to City Hall (its terminus had been South Ferry); then, it was banished from Manhattan; then, it was torn down altogether. The Polo Grounds shuttle became redundant after the Giants left town. Most of the Myrtle Avenue El went away. The Culver Shuttle closed. And so forth. But the most dramatic reductions came early.
In short, a fairly significant amount of elevated train service went away in just a few short years--some of it later to be replaced with subway service, and some of it just never replaced. I realize that public officials back then could pretty much have their way without seeking community input--that's how Robert Moses could get many of his projects built. But still, such a drastic reduction in mass transit service must have occasioned widespread disruption, and at least some complaints.
Bearing in mind that no change is adored by everyone, I'm wondering what the general consensus was at the time. I mean, these days you can't close a token booth without a fair amount of screaming. Compared to that, the closing of the Els was draconian.
Mind you, I am not arguing that a mistake was made. I'm interested in the historical context.
The one problem with that line compared to the IND line was that it was built as a three track line, with no room for a fourth. Beyond that, it ran over the Brooklyn Bridge and dead-ended at City Hall. One of the original schemes for that line called for it to be plugged into the BMT at DeKalb Avenue (the Ashland Place Line). What would that have done for the capacity of the other lines going through DeKalb? Building the subway on Fulton Street wasn't the problem. The problem was that no one thought of what to do with four tracks once they got to Downtown Brooklyn right away.
The issue with the Concourse line was that it was conceived as being a spur to the 8th Avenue line, rather than as a separate trunk line. Had it been conceived as a separate service, which a number of Bronx groups wanted (and the Board of Transportation dismissed out of hand), there would have been much more of a focus on building the 2nd Avenue line.
In my post I covered the "dead ending" of the Fulton EL. It could have been connected to the Cranberry tube. A large part of the Fulton el was rebuilt to subway standards (it looked much like the Broadway El). As for a three track line versus a four track line, I don't think that would have been a major reason not to keep the el as opposed to spending money on the subway. As has been mentioned in other posts, the C local vs the A express only saves a few minutes. Peak express service would have been fine.
I also believe that if there was no Fulton subway, they may have been more likely to keep the majority of the Rockaway line open also when the subway takeover happened, and connect it to Queens Blvd in addition to or instead of the Liberty el. One of the Queens Blvd local lines could have left Queens Blvd at 63rd Drive instead of going to Continental to cover the service, thus not adding extra traffic to the already crowded QB line.
The map would have more routes on it if the Concourse and Fulton subway was not built:
-There would have been a line on Fulton in the form of the dual contracts el
-A second Ave subway or some other needed line may have been able to be built with the money they used on the Concourse or Fulton Subway.
-The Rockaway line may be a subway line if they had connected it to QB instead of the Liberty el (If the Fulton subway did not exist it would have been smarter to connect it to QB, the natural connection. The Fulton Subway gave them a quick fix that would not of been as attractive if it was the Fulton el as opposed to the Fulton subway).
According to several things that I read, it was B of T policy from the late 40s through the beginning of the NYCTA not to connect the Rockaway line to the Queens Boulevard line, due to capacity issues. Whether or not that also covered diverting one of the existing local lines, I don't know.
The MFL's portals are well outside the CBD.
You wouldn't say that if you did a search of the archives for other Jersey Mike posts. :-)
Tom
CTA has embarked on a program to upgrade the "L". The Green Line (Lake, Jackson Park, Englewood) is complete. The Douglas line is currently being rebuilt, and the Ravenswood is next.
In case you hadn't noticed, the economy is in the toilet right now, and all local government entities are starving for cash. Subways are hideously expensive to build; Chicago is doing just fine with its "L"s and subways.
In the age before computer modeling, it was considered just prudent engineering to design a 100% safety margin into any bridge or other load bearing structure.
Tom
I do wish I could have seen the Manhattan els in operation, passing by the surrounding towers and tenements. There is nothing like walking down a street under the el. I always feel at home under `em. Just seems like the perfect way to accomodate the need for the central transportation service of a dense area. The noise, the shadows....I love `em. If there was an el train from here to California I'd be walkin' under it tomorrow. Once in a while stopping in a deli for a soda....
Can anybody confirm if this incident actually ever took place?
Wayne
Needless to say, it was a SLOW ride downhill, and I had greens as far as the Johnson could see. :)
No, you had to "work that thang" ... don't forget that in addition to fighting gravity, you also had signals that would start to clear, then change their mind and hang a bit before the trip dropped. So for some of them, you'd have to almost stop, for others they'd clear and you could let the train do a bit more of what it wanted to. That's why I slowpoked over the bridge. I wanted to see GREENS before I passed 'em.
How about bucking trains?
Sticky shoes and dead motors were just as common as ticky doors. You just did your time, paid your debt to society, charge up and go. I suppose there was something fundamentally wrong with us in TWU 100 back in the 70's ... we didn't NEED counseling nor did we complain much. We all had this fixed blank stare as we greeted one another at fallback time ... the "look" ... "this one's a DOG, ain't it?" No reply was necessary. Heh.
Let's face it, Kev - 1689 is our baby.:)
WIMPS. Heh. Nobody's DEMANDING you get off the train ... got no stones, then you can wait for the MIGHTY DIESEL. :)
A long wait if the problem is a derailment.
Tom
Still a long wait if you are in a tunnel or on the Manny B. :-)
Tom
1) It has the redbird style of interior lighting
2) The lights flicker
3) It runs on 96th Street and so did :( the redbirds
4) Its number makes it seem like it is an R-29
Yes, I'm suffering from R.W. (Redbird Withdrawl). But I got my fix today by riding the (7) and by riding 8627.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
If you miss the redbirds, go on the 7 line. There should still be some there. There had BETTER still be some there, I need to take my last photos of them.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I knew someone would write that. You KNOW what I MEANT.
If you miss the redbirds, go on the 7 line.
In the post that you just replied to, I wrote: "But I got my fix today by riding the (7)..." Did you miss that?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Due to financial shortcomings, I won't be able to get a digital camera soon enough...I fear it will be too late for getting pictures of my 'birds! I am so unlucky...
---Choo Choo
I'm suffering from IRTRFWL(Interborough RailFan Window Loss). But I know how you feel. I miss the redbirds, too.
Just watch out and don't overdose.
Here's the Link. I believe Imagestation may make you sign in, but it only takes a few seconds to do that.
Here's a sample...
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I am looking for some people to interview, and would love to chat with anyone on this list about why they are interested in subways or buses, how long have they been interested in them, what they find particularly interesting about them and any anecdotes they care to share.
Anyway, if you'd be willing to talk, I'm trying to wrap this up this week and would love to speak with you. Please feel free to email me individually at gfc2001@columbia.edu, or call me, if you wish, at 917-447-9965.
Again, I apologize if this message disturbed anyone. I thank everyone for their time and hope to talk to you soon.
Best regards,
Gaston F. Ceron
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Heh, and I am in the city and use the subway at least a few times a month.....many times at least once a week or once every other week for business.
Anyway though, I used to many times use the $4.00 FunPass when I used the subway. Many times I would make at least one exit out of the system, making my trip 3 rides so it was worth it. Whenever I used FunPass, I always was planning to make more than 3 rides, but usually once out of the system, I wound up walking if it was a nice day, and even if the rare occasion happened that I would only use 2 trips, I was only out $.50. (or about $1.08 if I would've used a $15.00 MetroCard). At $7.00, I will be sure that I will tak AT LEAST 4 or 5 rides (rare in one day for me), and will stick to the $10 or $20 MetroCard PPR.
I ride the subway a lot and I've never lost or damaged a card.
-Jeff
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
---Choo Choo
If you take the express bus 2 times a day 5 times a week it will cost $40 a week. To get $40 dollars on a pay-per ride metrocard you have to put more than $33 dollars on it ($33 + 20% = $39.6). And thats just the 2 ride a day on the express bus. If you want to go monthly, 4 7 day passes (28 days) comes out to $132, and 28 days for pay per ride costs $160. To get that with the discount, you need to put more than $133 a month on your metrocard. ($133 + 20% = $159.6). So even though its a few dollars less, the unlimited is still better and it gives you more options. Remember those numbers is taking it only during the week. If you ever take it on the weekends, or take a train somewhere during the day you are losing more money. I take the bus both ways every day, and a train and bus atleast twice a day, so the unlimited is the best for me. And you can just buy 4 7 day cards at once and just keep 3 at home, same as going for the 30 day pass.
The 6 fare $10 card is good. I see no problems with it.
It all depends on who is going to use the card.
I see no rip-off here. It's patently obvious how much use you need to get out of a fun pass for it to be a good deal. Just do the math, and figure out which card to buy.
In effect, the MTA has shifted the cost-benefit trade-off for different types of cards. A fun pass is no longer as good a deal as it was. But in compensation, the pay-per-ride, 7-day, and 30-day unlimited cards are now a better deal.
"You're better off getting a $21 7-day unlimited, that equals the price of 3 $7 fun passes."
It ain't necessarily so. If you're going to make a bunch of trips on one particular day, but are not a regular rider, a fun pass is a better buy than a 7-day unlimited.
"I hope people stop buying them, and give them horrible sales, that way the TA realizes what a stupid mistake they have made."
I don't think it's a mistake. The old fun passes were a money-saver after just 3 rides, and that was perhaps too generous. The MTA decided to give larger discounts to other types of riders--probably those who are in greater need of them. Seems fair to me.
Peace,
ANDEE
But I gotta admit, the joy of "socking it to them" for the GOP convention oughta help the city get even with them plutocrats come convention time. (although a few Sabretts woulda done da trick). Heh.
I'm going to take a RARE exception and print a newsletter to our customers here as just *ONE* example of why I quit the state for mass stupidity and unwillingness to buy a clue ...
Here's TODAY'S reality from that unregulated software company who promises everything and makes you kiss your pants on a daily basis ... and WHY Unca Selkirk's toast after ANOTHER 30 hour day figuring out the daily "what da fuh" factor ...
THEY'RE BAA-ACK!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A little over two years ago, an exploit of Microsoft's "HyperText
Application" ("HTA") scripting capabilities surfaced, which allowed rogue
sites to load a script on the machines of victims and in turn, that SCRIPT
would create a Windows PROGRAM on their hard disk and then RUN it. It took
Microsoft a period of time after the exploit was publicized before Microsoft
did something about it, barely.
In the interim, while people were being victimized, we released a freebie
called "HTASTOP" which permitted people to BLOCK any attempts at installing
or even running an HTA script. This solved the problem for the several
months it required for Microsoft to deal with their problem. While
Microsoft's solution resolved the problem to a degree, it only removed the
danger from the "Internet Zone" and didn't ever deal with the problem of the
"Local Machine" or "My computer" security zone. Our free HTAstop however,
DID protect all zones from rogue scripts exploiting HTA holes.
Fast forward this past month. After so many patches, so many adjustments,
and new versions of Windows, the problem has returned with a vengeance.
About a month ago, a few spam emails were reported which contained various
attachments with filenames like ERROR.HTA or FREEPORN.HTA or other enticing
"click on me" names. In the past couple of days, and particularly TODAY,
more variations on this theme are appearing, claiming "returned email, click
on the attachment for more information" with respect to the "undelivered
email." So far, we've received reports from several hundred of our customers
telling us that our BOClean product applied the brakes for them and found
nasties on their machines.
What makes this twist even more of concern though is that the HTA script is
obfuscated within an MS "javascript" which causes the attachment to elude
ALL antivirus programs unless they are redefined to the specific characters
in a specific attachment. We've examined about 16 of these and there's no
opportunity for the typical "antivirus pattern match" on these files.
They're all different, and unique. And the "zombie" which is downloaded
reports back to a site which tracks carefully which nations and specific IP
addresses it has been successfully installed to. Of primary interest to the
culprits are the US, UK, Russia and Australia specifically, but other
nations carry lesser "weight" and are also included after reviewing the
unprotected site and its files that the script kiddies behind this are using
to cull the data from their trojan and run their scripts from.
The source of the file is the Mideast region although the specific country
has not yet been determined. However, the sheer number of reports from our
BOClean customers with respect to trojans found after clicking on these
attachments has been nothing less than STUNNING, especially considering that
the nasties in question arrive in SPAM! People still apparently OPEN SPAM,
and even worse, CLICK on attachments in SPAM!
The central theme of the various downloads are getting a "mass denial of
service bot" onto your system, then putting it to sleep awaiting command
from its "master." This portends of a serious situation ahead and the sheer
VOLUME of the emails indicates that if it's successful, it will be a MASSIVE
attack based on our examination of the DOWNLOADED nasty once the exploit
downloader successfully downloads same. The downloader making the rounds has
numerous download sites and fallback opportunities to other sites should any
of the primaries be shut down. It has the ability to contact many sites as
well as IRC's "dalnet" in order to FIND "updates" as has been typical for
quite some time. What makes THIS different is its apparent SUCCESS.
The most recently encountered HTA files contain a buried exploit of
Internet Explorer which causes it to visit various pre-programmed sites,
whereupon it begins to download a BACK DOOR TROJAN which is immediately
activated. The one we saw overnight downloads MIRC and sets up a back door,
a port flooder and a multiple instance denial of service zombie which at
this time "sleeps" for further activation. In examining the downloaded
"zombie" we've found additional obfuscation and "stealth" which continues to
elude even the BEST antiviruses entirely, even when it RUNS.
Our BOClean antitrojan software detects and deals with all of these items
as of our most recent updates. HOWEVER, the HTA exploit is of great concern
since it appears to be sufficiently successful that it's being exploited at
an exponential rate at this time. Even MORE disturbing is that, with all of
the "security improvements" Microsoft has claimed to make to Internet
Explorer and Outlook Express in making it nearly impossible to receive a
LEGITIMATE file attachment in email, the proprietary formats belonging to
Microsoft themselves have NEVER been "corralled" ... such as VBS, HTA and
others.
Since we made a free solution to this problem available back in April of
2001, we highly recommend that anyone (including our customers) download
this free utility. HTAstop does not need to be installed or uninstalled,
it's a stand-alone program that turns HTA within Windows on and off at will.
Over the time since we released this utility, HTA has STILL not been widely
used, therefore turning off HTA capabilities PERMANENTLY remains the most
effective solution to this long-standing exploit of Windows (all versions
from Win95 to XP) ... and if you KEEP the HTAstop utility handy (it's VERY
small) you can always reverse the system neutering should there ever occur a
LEGITIMATE need to run HTA. This exploit is yet another of many reasons to
NOT permit "scripting" to run AT ALL in Windows. It's been a continuing
nightmare and security hole that is the basis of the majority of all
exploits ever since Microsoft released their "Internet Explorer" browser.
And the exploits and security holes haven't stopped after a good number of
years of Microsoft trying to fix them without disabling their "internet
integration" entirely, which would actually solve the problem.
WHY SHOULD I CARE ABOUT THIS?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
PROPERLY PATCHED systems will still HIDE "file extensions" ... so instead
of seeing a link marked "FREEPORN.HTA" you will see "FREEPORN" as something
to click on. Reality has demonstrated that people WILL click on it. This is
what the authors of this malware DEPEND on. If you have all "hide file
extensions" and "known safe programs" enabled (by default, Windows IS this
way) then you may be fooled and click on it.
File extensions CAN be shown:
http://www.cert.org/incident_notes/IN-2000-07.html
That alone will go a LONG way in DISCLOSING unknown, unsafe file
attachments. If a file attachment ends in .COM, .BAT, .PIF, .LNK, .WMA,
.EXE, .VBS, .SCR, .HTA or OTHER unsafe attachments, at least you'll now SEE
it!
If your system doesn't have ALL the patches (many Windows "fixes" are NOT
cumulative, if you missed the one that pops up an alert, then you're NOT
protected) or you've reloaded Windows and you're NO LONGER patched AT ALL,
then these HTA things will just RUN silently without so much as a warning or
whimper while they do their work completely hidden from view.
OTHER EXPLOITS OF NOTE
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Microsoft is also battling demons with their WEBDAV, IIS, and numerous
other components that are part of their "web servers" and WindowsNT, 2000,
XP and certain machines that contain personal web servers, file sharing
tools such as KAZAA, GnuTella, WinMX, Napster and such. In fact the record
companies and others are exploiting the security holes in these and Windows
in general in order to SABTOAGE those running "file sharing software."
If you're DELIBERATELY running a remote server on your machine, then you're
at serious risk of being "trojaned" and the federal courts of the US are
refusing to prosecute corporate sabotage if you're a "thief." And all of the
patches out of Microsoft and other vendors are playing a "catch up" game
with existing, readily exploited back door trojans. Even this HTA outbreak's
purpose is to install a trojan to take over your system. And Microsoft is
NOT fixing the holes, nor are they backfilling your PRIOR "updates" if you
find yourself needing to reload Windows with all the pre-existing bugs and
holes on your "repair disk."
ARE YOU UNPATCHED?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Most people who fall victim to old exploits (this one is STILL a risk,
Microsoft NEVER patched THIS one worth the proverbial "whistle") fall victim
to exploits because they're REINSTALLED WINDOWS! Sure you got your machine
all patched up once before. You did all the "Windows updates" and kept
Microsoft happy with your frequent visits.
When you "crash and burn" though, you end up reloading Windows again. What
about those patches? Whoops. A good number of Windows patches were "one of a
kind" releases and Microsoft is notorious for relocating their pages and not
maintaining them, so patches from a few years ago are GONE! And Microsoft
won't let you find them AGAIN if you're not using their LATEST version. In
other words, if you're running Win98, or ME, or NT, you're SCREWED. FORGET
Windows95, no patches at all!
Most people visit the "Windows update" site and allow Microsoft to
automatically install them. As a result, you don't HAVE a backup to use the
next time you reload Windows. If it's gone from their site, and you don't
know about the need for it, old exploits (like THIS two year old one) come
back to bite you. And Microsoft has NOT "cumulative patched" many of these
exploits. The HTA exploit has NEVER been fixed! The only solution Microsoft
has applied is a "script warning" *IF* you have it turned on. Default values
in Internet Explorer and Outlook Express are "RUN IT!"
IF you use "Windows update" all you're doing is letting Microsoft "check
your inventory" and then download and install a program without any means of
future reloading. Instead, note the updates available and then go to their
CORPORATE SITE and MANUALLY download the updates!
http://corporate.windowsupdate.microsoft.com/
Natch, you have to turn on everything HERE, but at least you can RIGHT
CLICK and "Save Target As" and end up with a file to run that you can copy
to a BACKUP DISK FIRST ... THEN you can run it and patch youself once you
have a COPY of the patch for the NEXT time Windows crashes and burns and you
need to reload your world, completely UNPROTECTED. THIS is the avenue by
which most of these exploits function.
DOWNLOAD HTASTOP, IT'S FREE!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you're not using BOClean, look for HTASTOP on our "freebies" page:
http://www.nsclean.com/freebies.html
Given the current popularity of HTA, we'd even recommend that our CUSTOMERS
download HTA stop and run it - while BOClean protects you against back door
trojans and similar nasties, the HTA exploiting going on just might permit
ordinary VIRUSES to slip past. Normally, incoming nasties known to the
Antivirus companies get stopped long before a trojan is allowed to actually
RUN where BOClean steps right up and trashes it. BOClean is NOT a substitute
for an antivirus program and the current exploits of HTA _ARE_ successfully
bypassing antivirus software. BOClean is intended to be a second layer of
defense for situations where a nasty slips past your antivirus given the
unique nature of backdoors and the continuing inability of antivirus
software to stop them once they've "implanted."
HTASTOP is provided FREE. Of course, we'd appreciate your looking at our
commercial software and considering buying a copy of what we make, but
there's no obligation, no spies, no nonsense with any of our freebies. They
have been provided to provide a limited subset of what our commercial
products provide, and are completely self-contained. We'll never bother you
if you choose to use one of our freebies, so feel free to grab a copy and be
safe without annoyance.
Please also understand that freebies are not supported officially, support
for our freebies are maintained on our website with all the answers you'll
need, links to them listed directly on the screen of the freebies themselves
to further ensure your privacy in not having to contact us if you don't want
to. Since these have been around for QUITE some time and folks have
contacted us for support in the past, they're MOST reliable and won't
REQUIRE support. :)
Elias : )
If you could afford to buy a fun pass every day you could afford to put you loose cahange in a piffy bank and save up to buy a weekly and with the money you save vs the fun pass eventually nuy a monthly pass
Why should the average rider have to pay for those who wish to mismanage thier money. It costs more to sell fun passes then to sell monthly passes, more maintance on the MVM.
As a child my parents taught me to save u p for what I wanted. I would put my change aside to save up to buy basebal cards. They were 40 cents a pack or 7 packs for $2. Lets just say I saved enough money out of my lunch money afford to buy 7 packs at a time reducing my cost per pack to 29 cents from 40 cents. I bought a 50 cent bagel for lunch instead of the $1.50 pizza combo. The economy of schale allowed me to stretch my $2 a day lunch money further
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
College man. Knows EVERYTHING!!!! (He'll learn.)
Posts some realy good pics of real oddball rail stuff. Seems to have PRR signal stuff down pat.
Now that undergrad time is drawing to a close, Mike may be moving to Charm City and may actually have to live in the real world.
In Toronto their Day Pass is $7 CDN. But you didn't see me complain about it. Why? It is good for 2 adults and up to 3 children. $7 CDN takes your WHOLE FAMILY to the ball game or restaurant or whatever, not the $35 USD it would in New York.
The lack of logic here is breathtaking. Even under the old fare structure, you had to take NYCT 3 times in one day before the Fun Pass paid for itself. The statement is evidently that you're going to DRIVE into the city, and then DRIVE to every destination instead of taking mass transit. This implies that you manage to find free parking at every destination. If you have to pay for parking even once, you can probably forget about any savings--even at the new fare levels. I doubt seriously that "most people" would consider this a great idea. Add to that the inconvenience of getting back to your car, driving on city streets, finding a new parking place, and so forth.
This grossly insults the intelligence of most people. There can't be many people who drive into New York, aside from the rare novice, who are unaware that you normally have to pay to park, or have to be very skilled at finding free street parking.
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe for you perhaps.
For me a 30 day pass did not make sense since I don't always use the subway or bus on weekends. I am usually a 5 day a week - to and from work. If I had a doctor appointment during the week I would use the Fun Pass because it would save me at least $1.50 or $3.00. If I knew I had other things that would require me to use the system more than 10 times (2x a day for 5 days) I would by the weekly unlimited.
I think each person has their own situation and if they are smart enough (by which I mean have some common sense) they will be able to which card is the best for thier needs.
Maybe you should break open your piffy bank (yes that is what he type) and do a deeper review of your economy of scale (not schale - where did you learn that, in grammer scool?)
So because I can afford a $63 monthly card, I don't deserve a discount?
Where's your logic in that?
Perhaps I may simply budget my costs so that I can afford the monthly and save money over paying per ride or by buying weeklies?
Chip
Going strictly by demand, the daily commuters are the captive audiance and thusly should experiance higher fares. It is the occasional riders who have more options, either by choosing not to travel or by taking alternate means (cab or car). The MTA should be trying to compete on a price level with the occasional rider.
It is obsene how much on a per-trip basis transit costs for the casual user. If I weren't a railfan I would never take transit into urban areas as the cost is almost what I would pay to drive, but without the convience of driving. When I'm on NJT I am like the only guy on the train who dosen't have a monthly pass. Problems with pollution, congestion and oil consumption will never be solved unless people choose transit as their prefered travel option with the car used for extreme circumstances. If transit and car travel almost cost the same, most people will drive.
Now, I realize that by strict supply/demand theory the captive audience should pay more, but NYTC has never been priced that way. If you think there was community outrage over the latest fare increase, it was nothing compared to what you'd hear if the new philosophy was "sock it to those who are most desperate."
The TTC in Toronto has I think an 83% farebox recovery and they have very liberal, affordable day passes and an unlimited free transfer system that allows one to keep riding the system until they die. The trains there are very well patronized even on Sunday early afternoons. People in Toronto use transit because it is affordable and easy. With more people regarding transit as their #1 choice the TTC has a very high revenue flow.
Very interesting. You think that moving the occasional weekend visitor to the city from an automobile to public transportation should have a high priority, as opposed to getting those who commute daily to and from work. It seems to me the more important ones to encourage to use public transportation rather than drive are the daily commuters, and that is exactly what the pricing structure favors heavy users.
Tom
Under the new structure, the same month would cost $73.33 so a 30-day unlimited at $70 is a good deal.
Now, that person can ride the subway on weekends for free, discouraging use of the car. I prefer to use a car on weekends, unless the subway is free.
Go Figure!
If you commute daily by subway--as a heluva lot of New Yorkers do--you're paying at least that much already. It's merely a question of whether you do so in a single purchase, or you pay for rides one at a time.
Unless you're one of the few New Yorkers who can walk to work, you're undoubtedly taking mass transit, and $63 per month (now $70) is about as cheap as the commute can get.
30-day passes are used primarily by everyday rush hour commuters. Fun Passes are used by people hopping around the city making lots of stops during the day.
Rush hour riders are expensive. Rolling stock requirements are set by rush hour service demands. Capital improvements are built to alleviate rush hour crowding.
Off-peak riders cost next to nothing to accomodate. The trains and tracks are there anyway. In many cases, the service has to run anyway. Those empty seats might as well be filled.
Thanks in large part to a reasonably priced Fun Pass, a majority of subway ridership is now off-peak. That's great news. So why are we trying to undo it by penalizing off-peak riders and rewarding rush hour riders?
Per day used, it costs NYCT more to accomodate a 30-day pass user than a Fun Pass user. Prices should be set accordingly.
If more people buy their fares in large quantities these coasts could be cut drastically.
Your argumetn holds no water becasue most rush hour ridership can not be moved to off hours
Station agents don't sell Fun Passes. Never have.
If more people buy their fares in large quantities these coasts could be cut drastically.
I'd love to buy Fun Passes in bulk. They've never been sold in bulk. A 30-day unlimited is not equivalent to 30 Fun Passes.
Your argumetn holds no water becasue most rush hour ridership can not be moved to off hours
But much off-peak ridership is discretionary, as the recent increases in off-peak ridership demonstrate. Now that the Fun Pass is so expensive, that off-peak ridership, which costs almost nothing to accomodate, will decrease, as will the fares that ridership brought in. People will make do with one or two rides, people will walk, people will drive.
Tell me what you think of these alternative options that NYCT might be persuaded to offer:
(a) $4.50 or $5.00 off-peak Fun Pass, not valid weekdays 6-9am.
(b) $21.00 Fun Pass 5-pack (unlimited rides on 5 nonconsecutive days for the same price as unlimited rides on 7 consecutive days).
(c) $70.00 Fun Pass 20-pack (unlimited rides on 20 nonconsecutive days for the same price as unlimited rides on 30 consecutive days).
(d) Replacement of the two-hour PPR free transfer window with a two-hour unlimited ride window.
So, of David's ideas, the $5 off-peak Fun Pass seems to me the most promising.
In London, a one day pass costs alittle bit more than 2 single fares in the central business distrit; but it is not good befoe 9:30 in the morning. Do the sae in NY...make a one day pass available after 9:30 for abot $4.50...this will get lots of people onto the system in off peak hours and might even switch the discretonary riders out of the AM crush.
It is not a stupid mistake if the people who stop buying Fun Passes still take public transportation and spend more money doing it.
Tom
If it weren't for the funpass, I would have had to smoke INSIDE fare control. The fun pass allowed me to leave, go up to the ATMOSPHERE, suck down cigarettes as the nicotine fits took hold, then swipe back in without exposing "customers" to nasty smoke or violating the law.
So I submit that the only VALID reason for a fun pass is for smokers who don't want to kill the customers. OBVIOUSLY the MTA would rather we set a track fire as we sneak one past the gates so as to not pay an additional fare for "stopping off" somewhere. :)
I'd use it if I was sure of 3 rides with a likely 4th. Now I'd want to be really sure of 4 rides with a very likely 5th at the absolute minimum.
Fun passes expire at 3:00 A.M. the day after purchase. You have at least three hours usage if you first use it just before midnight, and almost 15 hours usage if you first use it just after midnight. Unlimited do not have transfer privileges as such, so that is not an issue.
Tom
You was robbed. Next time use your employee pass. Seriously, the MTA web site gives the expiration time as 3:00 A.M.
Tom
Peace,
ANDEE
IINM, unlimiteds do have transfer privileges. If you swipe into the subway at 2:30am on a Fun Pass, 30 minutes before expiration, you'll have until 4:48am to board a bus.
Not the day after purchase, but the day after first use.
David, 4 PPR rides may cost $6.67 but the turnstile is still deducting $8.00 from the card.
The savings comes when you buy the card - not when you use it because the full fare is always deducted on that first swipe or dip.
---Choo Choo
If you buy a $10 PPR card, it's good for six rides at any time . If you buy a $7 fun pass, it's good for unlimited rides, all of which must be on the same day.
If you take exactly 4 rides on your Fun Pass, you're out $7. If you take exactly 4 rides on your PPR card, you're out $10, but you still have two rides left that can be used another day. Which option is the better deal depends on whether you have any plans to use the two leftover rides.
For someone not planning to use NYCT again in the foreseeable future, the Fun Pass is a bargain after the 4th ride. For regular riders, the Fun Pass is a bargain after the 5th ride.
Is it actually possible to spend $13.35 on a PPR metrocard?
I'd also like to add $10.43 plus 20% bonus (=$12.51) to my card that has $1.50 on it. Is that possible?
Say I'm planning to take four rides per day on each of ten days. Do I buy Fun Passes or do I buy a PPR? Ten Fun Passes would cost me $70. Forty trips on a PPR would cost me $66.67 (or, since the machines don't accept penny increments, $66.70). I'm better off buying the PPR.
The effective fare is $2.00 only for someone who intends to take up to five trips ever. That doesn't apply to most New Yorkers. That doesn't even apply to most tourists who would consider using the Fun Pass.
People are forgetful, cards get damaged and expire. Why do you think retailers LOVE gift certificates?! I have heard that the $$ that is never redeemed through gift certificates and store credits approaches 25%.
That figure isn't far off, but you have to take into account what it includes. First, that figure includes unredeemed credits/certificates due to the store or restaurant going out of business or being sold to a new owner who is under no obligation to honor credits/certificates from the prior owner (that all depends, of course, on the specifics of the sale of the business, but usually credits/certificates are retained as liabilities by the prior owner rather than being transferred to the new one). These represent well over half of unredeemed store credits and almost half of unredeemed gift certificates. Another 25% of unredeemed gift certificates are restaurant certificates given as gifts and simply never redeemed because the recipient has no interest in the restaurant or is geographically too far away to redeem it. Eliminate those two categories and less than 8% of credits and gift certificates are unredeemed after one year, less than 9% if you include the restaurant certificates mentioned above.
Another interesting tidbit: ten years ago, 12% of gift certificates purchased with a credit card were purchased with a stolen card. As more stores electronically track their gift certificates, that percentage has declined; I don't have current figures. (When I was in the retail hobby business our credit card contract required us to tie credit-card-purchased gift certificates to a specific transaction so that we could cancel unredeemed certificates if it was later determined that they had been purchased with a stolen card, thereby reducing the bank's liability. We never had much trouble with stolen cards, though.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The only gift certificates that I ever give as gifts are Federal Reserve Gift Certificates. They're accepted in EVERY store in the country and many abroad! You can even change them for gift certificates sold by foreign banks.
For one thing, PPR cards can be used on express buses, where the charge is double. I suppose the express bus could take two rides off your card, but I think it's easier to understand if it takes $$ off. Also, the 20% discount applies no matter how much money you put on your card--even if it results in a fraction of a ride.
I do not think that NYC could ever have distance pricing, aside from express buses. The whole fare collection infrastructure would need to be totally redesigned--a drastic change that would make the change from token to MetroCard look like child's play.
When the PATH fare was to go up to $1.50 from $1.00 you should have seen the lines of people waiting to by the 20 and 40 trip tickets from the vending machines. PATH must have lost a small fortune on that.
No, PATH wasn't an ASSHOLE and didn't try to suck its customers dry. PATH respects the people who ride it and provide a quality service at reasonable prices. Besides, it was probably more benificial to PATH to get the revenue up front rather than spread out over months and months and don't forget the bonus they get from all those lost and stolen cards. PATCO was similarily not a jerk when it raised its fares and the same with SEPTA and the MBTA.
For the tiny minority who travels alone and only spends one day in NYC ever, yes, the Fun Pass is a good deal for four rides plus up to four free transfers. For the rest of us, it's a good deal only for five rides plus up to five free transfers.
I have traveled alone on transit in San Francisco, London, Chicago, and Paris, and not come back again within 2 years. I think lots of people visit NYC alone and don't come back for a long time again.
But for just about everyone who posts on this board, and many tourists, the right comparison is against a PPR with 20% bonus.
The 4 rides will cost $8. If you spend $10 you will get 5 fares automatically plus the 20% bonus of 1 fare.
If someone spends $10 and only gets 4 fares then they aren't paying much attention.
You mean you would never come back?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Well it's best with a car, but years back I used to take the M to Metro, and then walk through the cemetery. But that would leave you on the wrong side of the tracks. You used to be able to cut through the tracks to Otto Rd from the cemetery, but they don't let you do that anymore. You could take the Myrtle Ave bus and it's about a four block walk from Myrtle Ave. Look at a map. The yard (and the best photo opps) are on Otto Road between 69th St and about 66th Street.
Is it a good spot for taking photo?
Definitely. Most of the times I've been through there there are M7's on flatcars, and also R142's when delivered. You got to take it by luck for the LIRR and subway deliveries. But there is always freight activity. CP Rail engines (there also the other day), NYA engines, etc.
Is it safe around the area?
100% safe. And I'm not just saying that because I am not scared of most NYC neighborhoods. Even someone that is scared of his own shadow would feel safe in Glendale.
70-something, probably. 8xyz are Metro-North Metro- and "Cosmo-"politans. There may still be some numbers duplicated between LIRR and MNR, but I expect that practice is now over.
Mark
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
The M-2/4/6 cars are nicknamed Cosmopolitans, as a complement to the MTA M-1/3s, nicknamed Metropolitans. As you probably know, they're the New Haven MU cousins to the M-1/3s, and can be powered from an electrified third rail or overhead caternary. Similar, but different. Cute, huh?
Mark
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
It's certainly got to be classier than what passes for a bar car elsewhere, but turns out to be a bar cart.
Mar
And yes part of the trip was that we were able to ride the gondola cars (two in the consist) all the way from Jamaica to Greenport and back, so you can imagine that I didn't spend too much time inside the train...bar car or coaches!
....chapped lips and split-ends on hair not included.....
---Choo Choo
Ain't that the truth. It was unbelieveable, probably one of the best fan trips I have ever been on. It was so much fun. The speed was great (it seems much faster when you are "outside" the train).
---Choo Choo
Oh no?!?!
601-606 came from Louisville & Nashville
607-610 came from Western Maryland
611-616 came from Burlington Northern (originally SP&S)
617-618 came from Penn Central (originally NH)
619-620 F-7's from MILW
621-622 F-7's from B&O but never got rebuilt.
See the first picture on this page.
The station was renamed "Botanic Garden" sometime after the Malbone Street Wreck. In 1928 the current Botanic Garden station was built and Consumers Park/Botanic Garden was closed.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Order of stops toward Flatbush from Franklin Av:
President,Sterling,Winthrop,Church,Beverley,Newkirk,Flatbush
Towards New Lots from Franklin Av:
Nostrand,Kingston,Utica,Sutter,Saratoga,Rockaway,Junius,Pennsylvania, Van Siclen,New Lots
On Queens Blvd from Queens Plaza to Union Tpke:
QP,36,Steinway,46,Northern,65,Roosevelt,Elmhurst,Grand,Woodhaven,63,67, 71,75,Union
I did all of this WITHOUT looking at the subway map for those who are 'curious'.
And that doesn't happen very often, right? A person falling between the cars while moving from one car to another?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Gateway
B13 Spring Creek
Gateway Mall
B20 East NY
Stanley Av
Mail Fac
I wish the would have built a real mall there instead of the supersized stores like target, BJ's The Home Depot.
Glenn L. Rowe...
Who is he? Does he post at SubTalk? Does he work for the MTA? How does he get into the yards to take photos?
And why did he have to send in the above photo? I want to cry.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
That number is familiar... 'tis almost like I rode it last week or days ago..
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
IIRC, you photo snapped it recently, Brian?
(memoirs of having run up to the platform only to have a redbird
consist honk-honk me and skip the station.. 4.4.03)
#3 West End Jeff
In 1896, the New York, New Haven and Hartford Railroad completed a capital improvement program along the New Haven to New York mainline This program included the elevation of the railroad through Stamford, Norwalk, and Bridgeport to eliminate grade crossings and resultant accidents. On July 5, 1896, Signal Station 44 in went into service in South Norwalk, and is the 44th interlocking station from New York. The tower is 1530 feet east of Norwalk and South Norwalk Station. The building is a three story structure, twelve feet by 35 feet, constructed from stone, brick and wood. Heavy timber frame is used to support the switch machine.
Electric signaling systems were installed in 1913, during electrification of the New Haven mainline. Three position signals were installed October 7, 1916. The present 68 lever mechanical Johnson interlocking machine was installed December 14, 1919. This type of interlocking machine is commonly called an "Armstrong" machine, due to the strong arms required to throw the levers. "Interlocking" refers to the feature in the machine in which switches and signals are connected as to prevent the operator attempting to line up conflicting routes, which would cause a collision. The most important protection to travelers and freight during the era in which the tower was in service was this protection for trains moving from one of the four tracks to another. This protection ensured that two trains were never on the same track simultaneously.
The tower controlled movements between Low Street in South Norwalk and the Norwalk River Bridge. It also controlled movements on the former Wilson Point Branch, the original terminus of the Danbury and Norwalk Railroad.
In 1969, the New York, New Haven and Hartford Railroad became the New Haven region of the Penn Central. This inclusion was a condition of approval of the merger between the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central System. Following Pennsylvania practice, the tower was renamed "BERK", indicating the junction of the Berkshire Line to Pittsfield, Mass.
The tower was in continuous service until 1984, when a new tower was constructed on the north side of the tracks several hundred feet to the east.
Control of the signals and switches passed to dispatchers in Grand Central shortly thereafter when Metro-North, the current operator of the New Haven Line automated all train control between New York and Devon at Grand Central. SS-44 is one of two remaining examples of a manual interlocking tower in Connecticut.
Museum Operations
The SONO Switch Tower Museum will be furnished and equipped as it was during active service in the 1950's. A gift shop will be located on the first floor and will offer railroad memorabilia and brochures on local activities.
The second floor is an integral part of the operating portion of the Museum. This floor contains the base of the interlocking machine with switch locks and other electrical components. The area opposite the machine will display historic railroad items donated and/ or loaned to the Museum. These items may include locomotive bells, whistles, lanterns and similar items.
The third floor is the operational portion of the Museum. It features the 68 lever machine that once controlled switches and signals. The levers will be restored to operating condition to demonstrate what the Operators did when the Tower was in active service. Future plans include using a scale model of the SONO area tracks to demonstrate the operations of actual train movement.
The Museum will be open weekends, May through October from 10 AM to 4 PM.
On July 5, 1896, Signal Station 44 in went into service in South Norwalk, and is the 44th interlocking station from New York.
NO, it is at MILEPOST 44. I believe that Milage is measured from Oak Point.
The Flyover
Between Hoffman's and CP-Unionville the branch is doubletrack. Between Hoffmans and Fullers the tracks are numbered,
from the north, 2 and 1; at Fullers there is a flyover, and track 1 become the northern track. The flyover is located where U.S.
Route 20 passes under both tracks, so this produces a rather spectacular double overpass. The lower bridge is a girder bridge,
while the upper one is a truss bridge. Just east of the flyover, where the tracks' grades are already separated, the branch passes
over the dam at the outlet of the Watervliet Resevouir. This is a spectacularly beautiful -- if small -- area, with hiking and biking
trails. The branch sits well in this little area.
As a historical note on this local oddity, we long wondered exactly why this flyover was right here, and what it did. We
collected the following information from various sources, but finally located a logical and authoritative explanation (which is, in
effect, number 4 on the following list):
1.In the book Images of America: Guilderland, N.Y. (Charlston, S.C.: Arcadia Publishing, 1999), Alcie
Begley and Mary Ellen Johnson state (on page 57) that the grade crossing was eliminated in 1927, and that
"within a few years" the second overpass was added to aid locomotives pulling heavy trains up "the heavy
grades upgrade at Frenchs Hollow." They include a nice photo of an RDC coming over the upper bridge
here.
2.There is some speculation that the flyover is a relec from the previous incarnation of Selkirk Yard, where
there were two humps. Was the flyover necessery when tracks were signalled for only one direction and
westbounds emerged on the southernmost track? [NO -- the old yard was right-handed!]
3.Alternatively, it has been recalled by some that there was the need to bring freight traffic from the south side
of the branch at the "Army Depot" (Guilderland Center, now the Northeast Industrial Park) to the north
side at the Burdick Road area: the flyover brought this local freight traffic across the branch's main.
4.Another suggestion has to do with the track arrangements along the Hudson Division (i.e., the Hudson
Line) vs. the arrangements along the Mohawk Division (i.e, the Chicago Line). On the Hudson Division, the
freight tracks were the center two tracks while the passenger tracks were the outter two tracks. On the
Mohawk Division, the tracks were two-and-two: the passenger tracks were the two southern tracks (with
right-handed running, and the stations were all on the south side of the line), while the freight tracks were
the two north tracks (with left-handed running). So, the bridges may have had something to do with this
"sorting out" of the tracks between the two divisions, making the right-hand running Selkirk Branch (as it
emerged from the yard) into the left-handed running Selkirk Branch prior joining the Mohawk Division.
And that is it: basically, number four. We recieved the following information from Gordon A. Davids:
When the NYC built four tracks between Albany and Buffalo, long before Selkirk Yard was built, they were numbered from
south to north as 2,1,3,4. Odd numbered tracks were signaled for westward traffic, and even numbers for eastward. The
principle was that traffic on the two middle tracks ran in the same direction (westward), so passenger trains passed freight trains
on the adjacent track, rather than meeting them head-on. In order for the freight traffic not to meet passenger traffic head-on on
adjoining tracks, the freight tracks ran left-handed, so that west-bound passenger trains would meet west-bound freights by
over-taking them, and there would be one track between west-bound passenger trains and east-bound freights, two tracks
between east-bound passenger trains and west-bound freights. It was a safety measure. So the passenger railroad (tracks 1
and 2) operated right handed, and the freight side ran left handed on tracks 3 and 4.
The major passenger stations west of Albany (Utica, Rochester, etc.) were all on the south side of the right of way, between
the railroad and the Mohawk River. The two passenger tracks were likewise on the south side of the right of way, running in a
standard right-handed operation. (A notable exception was Fonda -- which may have predated the four tracking, not a major
source of passenger traffic, and a junction station with the F.J. & G.) Freight and passenger traffic were separated at Syracuse,
but the passenger tracks ran through the city, and freight used the old West Shore Lake Line past Clark Street (GS) to the
north.
The freight yards west of Hoffmans were on the north (freight) side of the railroad, and were arranged for left hand operation.
The westbound hump at Dewitt was south (left) of the eastbound hump, for instance. All three NYC lines east of Albany and
Selkirk were double track, with right-hand operation (as is the current yard when viewed from the west), so the original Selkirk
was a right-handed yard and traffic had to be flipped from the left-handed operation west of Albany to the right-handed
operation of Selkirk Yard and the east.
The Fullers Jumpover reversed the track handedness for freight trains, allowing the change from left hand to right hand
operation without any trains crossing over between tracks. They could have done the same thing with two crossovers, but it
would have been an operating nightmare with trains slowing to cross over, trains waiting for trains, and the potential for head-on
collisions.
They placed the Jumpover at Fullers Crossing so they only had to bridge one track over Western Turnpike for the crossing
separation. Thus a location where it was already necessary to have a bridge was an ideal choice to build a second bridge; thus
(1) the flyover and (2) it being at Fullers over Route 20. Along with this, the Selkirk Branch passes over the Chicago Line at
Hoffmans. This is in order to get the two left-hand running freight tracks onto the north side of the right of way, with the
passenger tracks on the south side.
(NON-FLUSHING because Redbirds are still active therein)
4 Woodlawn R33 9278
Railfan Window from Kingsbridge to Atlantic Avenue.
Hit 49 in the Joralemon tubes!!
Hit 52-54 (don't remember) through Joralemon.
7920
7925
here
Peace,
ANDEE
Brian
< D > Concourse Exp.
I *still* can't get over the look on YOUR face when I reached down and handed you a piece of your operating position that fell off in my hands. Heh. Don't play with me, boy! You nearly CHIT yourself when I handed you a piece of the coupler and said, "I think you should turn this in." ... Boowahahahahaha ...
I already know what an anticlimber is (it's something that prevents the train from going over another if a crash should occur), but where do I find it? Hell, I don't even know what it looks like. I even did an archive search and came up with a thread asking what they are. You did respond with answers that would have benefited me, but the images didn't work since David changed the way images are displayed on here.
Help me out, Selly!!
SHYYYYYYYYT.... here I was thinking all this time that ANTI CLIMBER meant
the pole-edged object down about WHEEL level... the pole that sticks outward
IN FRONT OF EACH WHEEL...
Damn... more details/pointers, anyone??
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_6240.jpg
Note that immediately above the coupler is a line of corrugated metal, running across the car from one side to the other.
THIS is the Anti-Climber! Gaze upon it and know it in all it's anti-climbatorial glory!
I ALWAYS thought that line pattern was just a (between car) platform
RIDGE.... and that it was only there for design.... F me..
this is what I REALLY believed.
Thank G*D for SubTALK!
O:)
THANKS FOR TEACHING, BRAHS!!
Duh, is it to the side of the coupler? BTW, what is that?
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=492180
It's the part that's curved around the front and back of the car AT the floorline - the carbody in the picture is yellow, the anticlimber is the black ridged part ABOVE the coupler that looks like:
_________________
=================
... which goes from left edge to right edge of the car. If a car wants to do it doggie-style with another car, they're supposed to catch, like fingers and stop the climb of another car ...
No, I didn't get a chunk.
Sorry you didn't get any ... they're actually pretty tasty when glazed. :)
Thanks Selly! I got it now!
It the piece of stray steel that extends from below the carbody and seems to be to the left according to out own POV. I'm sure that's it.
Amazingly, that car is now featured on this site in the "latest images" section, alas being prepared for reefing :(
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_25005.jpg
It's strange how we seem to have a greater appreciation of things once they're gone.
I'm hoping against hope that some Redbirds will still be around on the 7 this October.
Time before that it was R33ML 8825 from Bowling Green to 59th St on a 4 or 5 train. I remember that train well, because earlier that day I had lost one of my friends at Brooklyn Bridge, he got on a R142 6 train, me and another friend didn't, so we spent the whole day looking for him. This trip came after we got back together at 5 at the WTC memorial, and it was one of those times when everything seemed right with the world, after a day spent in shear panic. Oh, and that was the first time I saw a genuine NYC subway rat, running down the platform at Wall St, just as the doors popped open he dashed across, pursued by like 4 little kids.
from the Boston Globe
Fulton to Wall on the 2/3 is about 560 feet!
Here are my measurements (end of platform to end of platform):
- The midpoint of a train is 50 feet south of the south side of Fulton.
- The midpoint of a train is 5 feet north of the south side of Pine St.
- From the south side of Pine to the south side of Fulton on William St. is 1125 feet.
Since an IRT train is 510 feet long, we have 1125-50-5-510=560.
The question was meant to comprehend stations that are still in service. When you start counting abandoned stations, difficult ontological questions intrude. No one disputes that 18th St (as well as Worth and 91 Sts) were closed because, after platform lengthening, two adjacent stations would have been practically on top of one another. But measuring the distance from a lengthened to an un-lengthened station is apples to oranges. And there are many other stations that were abandoned because they were too close to some other station. I suspect there are examples closer than 14th/18th.
Incidentally, no one on this thread has mentioned Aquaduct and Aquaduct/N.Conduit, which also seem to be extremely close.
Unfortuniutly NYCT riders are not trained as commuter rail riders to show up for a train at X time
It just makes sense to increase the frequency of service
Also remember that the long headways make it hard to transfer trains. Unless the place you are going to is on the line that takea you home, knowing what time the first train comes does you little good
You've posted this same suggestion about 20 times. Can you please support it with facts and/or reasoning (maybe you have, but I haven't seen them)?
You are suggesting that on specific lines at about 11 PM the trains should be broken up into 2 halves, and then each run as OPTO trains for the night, and then put back together again in the morning.
How long does it take to split apart a train and send extra trains to the yard? After accounting for the labor required to split and recombine the trains, how many OPTO trains per hour can NYCT actually run with the current crews (presumably this isn't a suggestion to add expense)?
On which lines would half-sized OPTO trains have enough capacity? Remember, if NYCT runs run half-size trains every 12 minutes, they've reduced capacity.
How much equipment is available with which NYCT can run OPTO trains? How many lines would that cover?
Are there any union-negotiated work rules that get in the way of this proposal?
(You've posted this same suggestion about 20 times. Can you please support it with facts and/or reasoning (maybe you have, but I haven't seen them)?
He's the Voice of Reason, not the Voice of Knowledge. He's provided his reasoning, but he doesn't have any facts.
No, $2.00 apparently WONT get you that treatment.
Show me a clubgoer who actually WATCHES the time..... :s
After having 5 drinks at a club, do you REALLY think a clubgoer will be able to watch the time?
1sf9
Doesn't know a club with a CLOCK in the main area..
Mt friends know what time the Q arrives southbound at union square. The problem that to get to many locations you need to transfer to the Q to complete your journey. With long headways and full length trains, this is not practical. That is why shorter more frequent OPTO service would bennift the public. Even if the MTA does not save a rat cent. That is not my goal
1) How much did it cost to put up said sign?
2) How many commuters were left waiting on the platform for a "Rockaways" train which will never arrive?
3) How many commuters actually use the stairway in question?
And you wonder why we have a repeat of the 1975 fiscal crisis. Government is government, before and always!
When the day comes, let me know when you go to post, I'll beat the qwap out of anyone who tries to get NEAR the foamer glass so's I can do your first run with ya. :)
He could even give you a 'Pop-quiz', since he IS your Pop after all! LOL!
Utica Ave had a practice test today but I remembered it after I left. D'oh!
I know they want 5 years full-time expereince but what about a bachelor's degree and 3.5 years full time experience?
PS: I am very unsatisfied frustrated with my currnet job and this has been a long time dream. =)
College and/or Vocational education may be subsituted for work experience at the rate of 30 credits for each year of full time work. However, all candidates MUST have at least one year full time work experience (part-time is accepted as work experience, but on a pro-rated basis.)
So, go ahead and get that $50 M.O. and download the application from the DCAS of MTA website. I hope you achieve that dream.
Anyone who's known me as a kid will see. =)
Postal Money Order, filled out forms sent USPS Priority. The work is good and fifty bucks is a good investment. CI peter
You'd be QUITE good at the gig, but like I told ya - Branford is a LOT more fun and a lot less chit than the "real deal" ... you'd be pulling a Selkirk in reverse. I'll pray for ya, boobe ...
-Stef
But I *know* Unca Lou will get RIGHT into the groove - he's got the right attitude and the right experience to do well with the TA ... but everything he knows from Branford *is* wrong as he'll see. Personally, I prefer Branford as an operating environment though the paycheck REALLY zuckz. :)
I was known though for a booming loud, "Yo MORON! Let go of the damned door. I ain't opening it." That was permitted back then even if unofficially, often to applause from others. Today, you'd be sent in for regrooving after three weeks on the street. :-\
I don't think today's TA would want someone like me.
I am reminded of a story I heard from a young lady during my first trip to Europe in 1977. She was on her way to Lincoln Center along with some friends and took a 1 train from Times Square. When they got to 66th, they couldn't get off in time and went on to 72nd St. After changing platforms, they boarded a s/b train "but nobody told us it was an express." Yep, they went all the way back to Times Square.
There was an older gentlemen from Brooklyn on that trip who had ridden on the subway all his life. We got into a spirited discussion on subways, after which he complimented me for bringing back nice memories. He even said that if a conductor caught you horsing around, he'd throw you off the tain at the next stop.
Peace,
ANDEE
Some poeple just want to operate a train. I don't know much about the other RRs, but I understand there's a lot of qualifying and certification to be done. So NYCT may be the easy way about doing it. Take the test, get trained, take a train for a spin.
Go to the Civil Service bookstore in lower Manhattan. Buy a copy of the motorman's practice exams. I wonder if it will contain examples of the first "open competitive" exam.
It seems as though the TA is strict about hiring people with work experience. My guess is that they don't want young kids anymore. I don't know the average age of a T/O who was hired off the first "open" exam, but I'd bet the age is around 35-40.
Depends on if you're O/C or Promo. O/C will probably get the usual test: math, timetables, basic stuff.
Promo will see troubleshooting as well (ex, I saw a sample practice test yesturday at Utica: "When a train has a grounded shoe beam, what has occurred?"). Study guys.
"You hear that Elizabeth, I'm coming to join ya' honey".
;) Jimmy
Anyone know where I can get a copy or some sort of study guide?
Thanx...
Civil Service Book Shop
89 Worth Street
Tribeca
(212) 226-9506
Best of luck! If you make it to schoolcar, it'll be an eyeopener. You'll learn that everything the foamers and foamettes told you is wrong. :)
When might we know in real numbers the impact this may or may not be having on the subway.
I walked to Manhattan again this morning and intend to walk home every day untill it gets cold again. Many in my area are doing the same or cycling.
Plus there's the exidus factor. Some number of people will simply move out of New York.
Still others will have to move furhter out to areas that are even more dependet on the subway.
High unemployment means less riders too.
Is there any way to gage these trends by the accounting of subway ridership?
If the past is prologue, many of those who move out will be those that benefitted from the public employee pension enhancements, tax cuts funded by underfunding the pensions and increasing debts, and other goodies handed out by the pols in the 1990s.
We were robbed. Again. And this time, with welfare rolls down at historic lows, you can't blame the minority poor (though the Post still tries). And this time, they didn't just suck the city dry, as in the late 1960s and 1970s. They did it to the whole state.
Does Ron no-longer-in-Bayside hear this? With every deal over the past six years I ranted here and elsewhere, and he accused me of saying the sky is falling, and I should just write a letter to our wonderful Governor and State Legislature they'd do the right thing. They knew what they were doing. I didn't.
Actually, we both knew what they were doing.
I assume you're doing this because the exercise is good for you and not to save money. A round trip on the subway each weekday will now cost you $70 for 22 weekdays, and any weekend bonus trips are free. Back in 1995 it would have cost you $66 for the 22 weekdays, and each weekend extra trip would have been another $3, and any bus trips to get to the subway would have been extra too.
I need that $70 per month more than ever.
Besides its nice to walk.
Some things have only gone up in price by 6% in 8 years the way a daily round trip subway ride has, but there aren't many.
I don't smoke, I don't drive a car, I don't own property, I don't make $150,000 a year so those other increases don't affect me directly, still, I've got to cut something.
And, returning to my original point, I am not the only one judging from the sharp increase in Pedestrian/cycling traffic on both the Brooklyn and Manhattan Bridges this week.
---Choo Choo
My Dad told a story where his friend, newly arrived in New York City,
used the El to go to and from work downtown to 72nd Street. He caught
the same train promptly each day after work for a week. One afternoon he was late to the station. He caught what he thought was the same train and found himself going not uptown, but under the East River to Brooklyn.
We are now in process of writing Dad's book and would like the stories
to be as accurate as possible.
Is it possible that the El and Subway
trains looked that much alike?
Is it possible that the El and Subway trains shared the same stations at a site such as the City Hall--Brooklyn Bridge area?
Thank you,
Mike and Carolyn Durak
By 1928, did the BMT and the IRT share the same tracks, tunnels, or stations?
Mike
The only other station I can think of offhand which you could describe as "shared" would be Times Square where you could go between the IRT and BMT without going outside, but they had separate control areas and there was no free transfer.
The IRT and BMT shared (and share) the same tunnel structure under part of Flatbush Avenue but do not share the same tracks or stations.
Also, the IRT 1939 map shows a subway line running north from Grand Central Station and called the Lexington Avenue Line...did that line exist in 1928?
Thanks, Mike
Since the IRT and BMT were in competition with each other (aside from the Astoria/Flushing joint service), their respective route maps would only show their own lines and not mention the other companies services.
In fact in each of the maps there is not indication that the Astoria/Flushing services were jointly operated, giving the reader the impression that the service was soley operated by either the IRT Co. or the BMT Co. depending on whose map they were looking at.
The Montague St Tunnel and the Joreleman (East River Tunnel) are in the same vicinity of each other so that one a printed map that only shows the routes of one company it would seem like they were the same tunnel.
For the best comparison - match those maps to todays map.
I have to learn to proof read before clicking on "Post Message"
(Note...a separate but related response is referenced under "Re: 1928 Clark Street Station.")
Now that you have cleared up our confusion between the IRT and the BMT maps and the names of the tunnels, that part of the problem is solved.
The one question you might still be able to answer is this: Is there an IRT subway station in the downtown Manhattan area where a person new to the subway system could get confused ...and instead of taking the IRT Lexington Avenue line to 68th street..accidentally find himself on the IRT Brooklyn-bound subway going through the East River Tunnel?
We had pictured him making this mistake at the Brooklyn Bridge station, but perhaps you have a better suggestion? All we really know is that he worked somewhere in downtown Manhattan and lived on east 72nd street.
Thank you again...
Mike
Will you please stop eliminating the "RE:" in the subject line. This practice makes the thread hard to follow. Thank YOU.
Peace,
ANDEE
Mike
In 1928, the only portions of the Fulton-Bway-Nassau complex that existed were the present 2/3 and 4/5 stations, which were not connected. The present J/M/Z station was added in 1931, and it was also separate (being parallel to the other two).
The present system of underground ramps connecting all of these stations dates from 1933, when the present A/C line was extended to Jay Street in Brooklyn. However, you had to pay a separate fare to transfer. The free transfer was established in 1948.
IRT West Farms Line between Freeman Street and Jackson Avenue
IRT Jerome Avenue Line between Woodlawn Road and 167 Street
IRT White Plains Road Line between East 241 Street and East 219 Street
IRT Flushing (ex-Corona)Line between Willets Point Boulevard and Queensboro Plaza
IRT Astoria Line between Ditmars Boulevard and Queensboro Plaza.
If your friend boarded a train say on the West Farms Line in The Bronx he might mistakenly have gotten on a subway train and not an el one.
Also the IRT and BMT El Stations at Park Row where right next to each other and someone not familiar with them could have boarded the wrong line, but since you said that your friend rode the subway under the East River it sounds like he boarded a train in either The Bronx or Queens.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Since he boarded the el to go to work at 72 St, I'm going to guess he took a train from the White Plains Rd el in the Bronx to the 72 St/Broadway subway station (was there any other service from the Bronx to the West Side in the 1920s?). The headhouse at 72 St has entrances on both sides. If you're used to coming in at 72 St and run down the stairs on the left to go uptown, it's easy to come in from 71 St, get disoriented, and run down the stairs on the left and board the wrong train, especially if you're in a hurry and not paying attention to signage.
Freeman St? How long did el service last on this line. I thought it ended after the subway opened in 1905.
IRT White Plains Road Line between East 241 Street and East 219 Street
Did the 3rd Ave el ever run north of Gun Hill?
Once the subway began operating over the IRT West Farms Line el service was cut back to Freeman Street and was provided by the 2 Avenue El only. When the 2 Avenue El north of 59 Street was closed in 1940 the Freeman Street service was assumed by the 3 Avenue El. This lasted until November 5,1946 when it was discontinued.
3 Avenue El trains only did provide service between Gun Hill Road and East 241 Street starting on October 4,1920 at first with shuttles between Fordham Road and East 219 Street (non-rush) and East 238 Street (rush), Service was extended to East 241 Street on December 13,1920 but the el shuttles did not operate to that terminal until 1924. 3 Avenue El service was cut back to Gun Hill Road permanently on/or about Decemebr 22 or 26, 1950.
Larry, Redbird R33
Wow. I can't imagine how all that traffic was handled on the original IRT el. Lexington Ave, 7th Ave 3rd AND 2nd Ave service. Who'd ride the el service with the Lexington Ave subway available anyway?
3 Avenue El trains only did provide service between Gun Hill Road and East 241 Street starting on October 4,1920 at first with shuttles between Fordham Road and East 219 Street (non-rush) and East 238 Street (rush), Service was extended to East 241 Street on December 13,1920 but the el shuttles did not operate to that terminal until 1924. 3 Avenue El service was cut back to Gun Hill Road permanently on/or about Decemebr 22 or 26, 1950.
Again, seems like excessive service.
Even the railroad lines had stations spaced very closely. The New York Central Harlem Line in The Bronx had four more stations then it does now.
The idea was to make the service as convinient as possible.
Larry, RedbirdR33
In August 1949, express service from E 241st, Bronx Park, Woodlawn and Van Cortland ran 10 car consists - each at 15 tph during rush hour. The Lex locals ran 7 car consists out of Pelham Bay Park at 30 tph. The Bway locals ran 5 car consists at 13 tph out of both 137th St and 145th St (Lenox). They ran 9 car consists at 27 tph out of Main St.They ran 2 car consists at 7 tph as Dyre Ave Shuttles and 2 car consists at 12 tph as Polo Grounds Shuttles.
The Third Ave El ran 7 car consists out of E 241st St at 10 tph; 6 car consists out of Bronx Park at 25 tph and 5 car consists out of 129th St at 7 tph.
You did say downtown to 72nd St so I am assuming he started in upper Manhattan or the Bronx.
Could you be more specific? That way one of us can provide you with a more detailed answer.
The Elevated Stations in Manhattan did not/could not share their platforms at any point with the subway lines.
In the 20's the El cars and Subway cars were basically the same equipment (with some minor exceptions).
They may have looked alike, but they were radically different. El cars were made of wood, even the former composite cars then in el service. El cars had windows which opened from the bottom, unlike subway cars which opened from the top.
Wow! We are new at this bulletin board stuff. A lot of you out there know a lot about what we are trying to solve! We want to talk with you in more detail about the ideas we are getting from you and the others.
But first I need to find out if I am doing the right thing to reach you, so I'll keep this one short...and I'll get right back to you after I see how this comes up on the bulletin board.
Also, is there any way I can reach all of the others (there must be eight of them?) that have added to the puzzle and keep them all updated?
Thanks so much for your help. We'll be right back.
Mike and Carolyn
From what you tell us, there are some errors in our remembered version of this story.
What we do know is that Dad's friend went to the same station every day for a week or so and always caught the same train home from work to 72nd street.
We know he worked in downtown Manhattan.
On the day he was running late, we know he mistakenly got on a wrong train at the same station. The information you all have given us tells us he could not have been riding the el and accidentally got onto a subway in Manhattan--so probably his mistake took place from subway to subway--not from el to subway.
We know he went under the East River. The story goes that Dad's friend was reading his paper and was startled because "it got dark, and the lights came on." That is the part of the story that made us think the guy had been riding an el all this time and was startled to experience his first trip through a tunnel! But surely it would have been dark and lights would have been on in any subway trip? Can you tell us if there would be any tell-tale differences to a subway rider that he would experience when going through a tunnel under the East River for the first time? Maybe it is not darker? Maybe it has some other sensation--like sound? We may need to adapt this detail in the story to match reality.
We know he found himself in Brooklyn. (...where he took another train in hopes of returning to Manhattan, but ended up somewhere else in Brooklyn, so did manage to catch a train that took him back to his original spot in Brooklyn...within sight of the Brooklyn Bridge.)
We know he eventually got back to Manhattan over Brooklyn Bridge.
...and we always thought that final trip was by trolley. Is that possible?
And while we are in the company of so many who know about subways, let us check on another detail. The story was that Dad's friend "put his nickle in the turnstile" each time he got on one of these trains. Did a person get on a train and just ride as far as he liked for his nickle? He did not have to pay another nickle until he got onto another train? And was there a "turnstile"? If not, where did his nickle go?
We want to thank you all for your time and interest. We cannot believe so many answers can be tapped from so far back in time without our even being able to go to New York!
Mike and Carolyn
1) The 2 Avenue EL at 72 Street and 2 Avenue on the East Side.
2) The 9 Avenue El at 72 Street and Columbus (9 Av) on the West Side.
3) Tne Broadway-7 Avenue Subway Line at 72 Street and Broadway also on the west side and only a block away from the one on Columbus Avenue.
The Broadway-7 Avenue Line going northbound splits at 96 Street and one branch continues up Broadway to 242 Street in The Bronx. Although this is a subway line it runs on an elevated structure between 116 Street and 137 Street to stop at the elevated 125 Street Station. It again runs on an elevated structure from Dyckman Street north. If your father had ever ridden this train north he might have mistaken it for one of the Els.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Dad and his friend lived on the east side of Central Park, so your theory that they must have used the 2nd avenue el at 72nd street sounds like a good one.
The 1939 IRT map we found on the this site does not show both subways and els at the same stations in the 72nd street area--as you have said, the only way that could have happened appears to be north of there, in the Bronx. A tantalizing idea, but...did you find our latest update of details? It is on today's list...Thursday. I'm afraid I've not figured out how to link all of these messages together. I'll paste it below for you, just in case:
......................................
Posted by mike durak on Thu May 8 10:16:13 2003, in response to Re: 1920's Sub and El stations in Manhattan, posted by David Pirmann - Web Site Host on Thu May 8 10:03:19 2003.
To all of you who have helped us with our research through your comments:
From what you tell us, there are some errors in our remembered version of this story.
What we do know is that Dad's friend went to the same station every day for a week or so and always caught the same train home from work to 72nd street.
We know he worked in downtown Manhattan.
On the day he was running late, we know he mistakenly got on a wrong train at the same station. The information you all have given us tells us he could not have been riding the el and accidentally got onto a subway in Manhattan--so probably his mistake took place from subway to subway--not from el to subway.
We know he went under the East River. The story goes that Dad's friend was reading his paper and was startled because "it got dark, and the lights came on." That is the part of the story that made us think the guy had been riding an el all this time and was startled to experience his first trip through a tunnel! But surely it would have been dark and lights would have been on in any subway trip? Can you tell us if there would be any tell-tale differences to a subway rider that he would experience when going through a tunnel under the East River for the first time? Maybe it is not darker? Maybe it has some other sensation--like sound? We may need to adapt this detail in the story to match reality.
We know he found himself in Brooklyn. (...where he took another train in hopes of returning to Manhattan, but ended up somewhere else in Brooklyn, so did manage to catch a train that took him back to his original spot in Brooklyn...within sight of the Brooklyn Bridge.)
We know he eventually got back to Manhattan over Brooklyn Bridge.
...and we always thought that final trip was by trolley. Is that possible?
And while we are in the company of so many who know about subways, let us check on another detail. The story was that Dad's friend "put his nickle in the turnstile" each time he got on one of these trains. Did a person get on a train and just ride as far as he liked for his nickle? He did not have to pay another nickle until he got onto another train? And was there a "turnstile"? If not, where did his nickle go?
We want to thank you all for your time and interest. We cannot believe so many answers can be tapped from so far back in time without our even being able to go to New York!
Mike and Carolyn
CG
How about, you've never seen a longer train because it wouldn't fit, but they'd like to run longer trains?
I was there a month ago and it looked like platform extension to me, but I don't have any hard details. Greenwich is served by some New Haven expresses, and maybe they'd like some additional trains to serve the station, but they're too long, and making people move up takes too much time.
The section I'm speaking about is new within the last week or so and extends further south/west than the permanent extension. The supports are wooden and went in about 2-3 days ago. It looks like they are laying a wooden platform on top of those supports today.
CG
You'll never get any stories that short from anyone in here.
Their website is www.straphangers.org
Anyone know what happened?
He sent me 6 more than I would have a need for.
If anyone would like one send me an email and I will let you know where to send a SASE.
The ideas in the study are, broadly speaking, those in Gov. Pataki's address a couple of weeks ago, but at 86 pages it goes into more detail. Most of the ideas have been well rehearsed elsewhere, but they come together in one place for the first time. Careful readers will find a few novelties.
The proposed JFK connection gets plenty of discussion, with two options presented: the Brookfield proposal, and a new East River tunnel. The Brookfield proposal has been pared back. As now presented, it would use the existing A/C Broadway-Nassau station in Manhattan, NOT a new terminal at the WTC as Brookfield had wanted. But the basic idea still includes hijacking the Cranberry St tunnel, and sending the C through the Rutgers St tunnel. A new East River tunnel would allow JFK Airtrain rolling stock to come into Manhattan directly, creating a 1-seat ride from Lower Manhattan to the JFK terminals. The same tunnel would offer an express for LIRR riders from Jamaica station. But it would cost more than twice as much, and take about twice as long to build.. The document does say that other options will be explored.
The document also touches on the problem of bus storage, but it finesses the key issue: The best place to put a new bus terminal is at the WTC site, but many of the victims' family members don't want it there. So the document just states the problem, while saying that the location of a new bus terminal is TBD.
There's plenty more in the document, which I urge everyone to read.
A new East River tunnel would allow JFK Airtrain rolling stock to come into Manhattan directly, creating a 1-seat ride from Lower Manhattan to the JFK terminals.
Funny how my calls for the A train itself, rather than a separate line, to be extended to JFK were shot down as pointless.
I don't know the details of what you proposed, but it would have numerous operational difficulties. In its present state, the A is operating close to capacity. The 207th St interlocking and the A/C merge on either side of the East River are its main choke points. That's why the Brookfield proposal takes the C out of the Cranberry St tunnel. Your proposal would just maginify this problem all the way up and down the line. The A can't be the new "train to the plane" without canibalizing existing service. The connection at Howard Beach is the best it can ever do.
I would add that the new proposal envisions running the JFK connection on dedicated trains that are more suitable for airport passengers (i.e., with space for luggage, and so forth).
Peak subway ridership overall doesn't coincide with peak travel times to and from airports. Airport travelers generally won't be in conflict with commuters.
The A is not operating terribly close to capacity. Flipping through the Weekday Cordon Count 1996, it looks like the 1/9, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, B, E, F, L, N, and R are more crowded, or at least they were in 1996. So there's room (by subway standards) for a few rush hour airport passengers on the A trains that already run.
Some trains through the Cranberry tunnel -- namely, C trains -- terminate at Euclid. If, between the four terminals (Lefferts, JFK, Far Rock, Rock Park), there isn't enough service into Manhattan (as opposed to shuttle service), then some or all C trains can be extended to meet the demand. Keep in mind that much of the present ridership from Howard Beach will shift to JFK.
Luggage facilities are nice, but they aren't of much use except to those passengers whose destinations are in walking distance of the AirTrain terminal. Everyone else will have to transfer to the subway, anyway. And it's certainly possible to design a compromise rapid transit vehicle that's suitable for both commuters and air travelers -- consider the rolling stock used on the Piccadilly line.
But my main point is in noting that my push for through service was brushed aside as unnecessary and even pointless. Apparently the consultants disagree with my critics.
This is obviously wrong. Rush hour A train service runs at tighter headways than every B division train you named (although only in one direction.)
Rush hour A trains are VERY crowded heading into Brooklyn. In fact, The cranberry tunnel is surpassed only by the manhattan bridge in terms of Lower east river crossings.
Keep in mind that much of the present ridership from Howard Beach will shift to JFK.
Headways are the problem. Hard to split 2 trains 4 ways.
Rush hour A trains are VERY crowded heading into Brooklyn. In fact, The cranberry tunnel is surpassed only by the manhattan bridge in terms of Lower east river crossings.
Well, I was wrong about the N.
Here are the crowding statistics for 5-6pm on each B Division line, expressed in passengers per 60-foot car equivalent, based on the Weekday Cordon Count 1996 (if anyone has more recent statistics, I'd be interested in seeing them):
(* = maximal PM crowding is during a different time slot)
F (N): 161.1
L (S): 159.1
E (N): 139.1
B (S): 116.7
Q (S): 107.2
A (S): 101.1
R (N): 95.6*
A (N): 95.5
D (S): 95.5
D (N): 90.3
N (N): 88.1*
N (S): 83.6
J (N): 56.3
C (N): 55.6
M (N): 53.6
F (S): 53.1
R (S): 52.8
B (N): 49.2
C (S): 47.9
M (S): 38.9
Q (N): 17.3
Not directly relevant here, but because I know someone will ask, here are the A Division statistics, in passengers per 51-foot car:
6 (N): 139.2
4 (N): 126.5
5 (N): 116.9
2 (N): 96.2
1 (N): 89.8*
3 (N): 83.8
7 (N): 73.8
2 (S): 67.8
3 (S): 67.7
5 (S): 62.3
4 (S): 59.0
Anyway, back to the issue at hand:
Based on these figures, in the afternoon rush, the A to Brooklyn could take on an additional passenger load of 50% without adding a single train and it would still be less crowded than the F to Queens. I'm not suggesting that it would be comfortable, only that it would be physically possible. So A trains could easily swallow the load a JFK connection would dump on it.
Now that we've established that it isn't actually necessary, could additional trains be added? I don't know offhand, but I do know that, if Cranberry crowding became unbearable, C capacity could be increased by 25% simply by running full-length trains on the line. I don't anticipate the issue arising, since the C in Brooklyn seems to be quite empty, but should it get crowded (due to overflow from the A) a simple solution is available.
Headways are the problem. Hard to split 2 trains 4 ways.
Ignoring route designations (A vs. C) for the time being, let's say we push 30 tph through Cranberry. If we're worried about headways at the outer ends, we want to send all 30 tph through, with nothing terminating at Euclid. Splitting service equally gives us 7.5 tph on each branch, or 8-minute headways -- hardly intolerable, even for rush hour. But the airport and Rock Park branches would probably suffice with 6 tph each (and I think I'm being generous), leaving us with 9 tph to each of Lefferts and Far Rock -- we've cut headways there by another minute and change. Or reduce airport and Rock Park service to 5 tph each and we get 6-minute headways at Lefferts and Far Rock -- fantastic!
This is only a problem if the C terminates at Euclid. The only reason to short-turn a service is because there would otherwise be too much service further out. If we're worried about headways, then apparently there isn't too much service further out.
I'd like to see more recent statistics. I don't know if anything more recent has been published or if I'd be able to gain access to it without putting up a fight.
I'd also like to see weekend statistics.
But what you've got is better than nothing. Maybe you can have Hevesi and Thompson look into it.
L trains can definitely be extremely crowded in rush hour and quite full at other times. I've on occasion barely been able to get on an L at 3rd Ave. I've never been able to get a seat at 3rd Ave.
But I've never seen sardine-ing on the L, even at rush. Maybe a delay will really fill one up, but the next one will be spacious. Perhaps they were only running 6 tph in 1996 for construction or something.
In the AM rush, I've see cars toward the rear that were so full I could barely get in at 3rd Ave. I now stand near the front so that I can get into a car that others are exiting.
Whatever the reason, on the date of this passenger count, there were only 8 Canarsie-bound L trains crossing the East River between 5 and 6pm. The current schedule calls for 15. That would account for the reduced crowding.
Ahh, I remember that. I do believe it was around the mid-90's. It used to be a very long wait at Bedford for the train in front to finish crossing the E River, before they would let us in. I think once or twice the lower part of the signal (double white/red lights) was actually showing a double red aspect. Trains ran more slowly then than they do now, too. The current T/O's on the L line are also very aggressive when it comes to the timers; they don't even wait for the signal to clear, just for the stop-arm to go down.
I can just see the ads: "For only $2, you and your luggage can squeeze onto an A train, and stand for 45 minutes for the connection to the JFK Airtrain at Howard Beach." Perhaps they'll call it the "Train to the Train."
It would frankly be more coherent to argue that convenient airport access is simply unnecessary, than to argue that the A train is the way to provide it.
It's not like the Cranberry tunnel is operating at capacity, in any case. C trains aren't even full-length!
And, again, most airport passengers won't be going to the airport in the afternoon rush. The issue only arises one hour of the day, five days a week.
And I agree with you that the transfer at Howard Beach is the killer. It's RonInBayside and others who disagree. I've been arguing all along for direct service on the A.
Secomdly, I simply love it when you guys look at #'s and say that a train line can handle more riders from that single observation. Mr. Greenberger, do you ride "A" trains from Brooklyn in the AM? At high street, Just about EVERY A train is packed, unless it comes DIRECTLY behind another one, and misses a connection with an "F" train. Heck, I've seen instances where 3 "A" trains came in sequence, and the first 2 were Packed at crush loads. The 3rd one was natably emptier though, with all seats taken, but not too many standees.
During the PM rush, A trains don't get as crowded (since the crowds seem to spread out in the PM rush hour) but you still couldn't add 50% ridership increase in anyway at all.
Ignoring route designations (A vs. C) for the time being, let's say we push 30 tph through Cranberry. If we're worried about headways at the outer ends, we want to send all 30 tph through, with nothing terminating at Euclid.
You're running 30tph with splits/merges at Canal, Hoyt, Euclid and Rockaway Blvd? Sounds like bad operating practice to me.....
If the C turned at Canal and A/E Exp went through, you wouldn't have a merge there. Although you would have one at 50th St SB, Es can simply file in the spaces between Ds.
A merge @ Euclid is no problem. Happens all the time, when the TW/O @ Hoyt (or wherever controls Hoyt/Schermerhorn) sends the Far Rock A local and the Lefferts A express, and they arrive simotaneously @ Euclid. The barrage of switches @ Euclid, not present at Hoyt or Canal, allow for more flexibility. Even if a train takes the wrong lineup on a split it would have a second chance to correct itself.
Rockaway Boulevard can be skipped on the 3rd track by switching between 80 and 88 Sts.
Hoyt is the only problem you have left. An A/E merge @ Hoyt can't be much worse than the present E/F @ 71 Av & 5 Av, Q/Q/W @ DeKalb, N/Q/Q/R/W @ 34, M/N/R @ Montague & Pacific, 4/5 @ 149, etc,
A lot of your 'solutions' don't really work, they just move the merge/split to a new location (switch between 80th and 88th just moves the delays to this location.) You're talking about no C merge and replacing it with the "E" train, and that just creates a brand new merge. These merges cause delays as it is at the lower headways at which they run. 4 splits and merges is not going to work when you have 30tph running. 2 is bad enough.
In any case, even if the Cranberry tube is maxxed out (which probably isn't the case), even if each and every A and C train is fully packed (which definitely isn't the case, but I'll play along), there is still capacity to spare. How so? C trains are short. (Yes, I know that on this line the express is more popular than the local. That's irrelevant when it comes to raw capacity. Having to ride a local when one prefers an express is far better than not being able to fit on a train at all.)
You imply that much of the crowding is due to transfers from the F at Jay. If there were truly no room for those passengers on the A/C, some of them could stay on the F to W4 and transfer there. That's in addition to the 50%, or whatever the relevant figure is today.
The Queens Boulevard express tracks carry 30 tph, with splits/merges at Continental and at 36th, with splits/merges on the E at Queens Plaza, 50th, and Canal, with splits/merges on the F at 47-50, at 2nd, at Bergen, at 4th, and at Kings Highway. Somehow they manage.
No, that doesn't work. They take the A to get to B'way-Nassau or Chambers. By W4th street, northbound 8av trains are nearly empty. No point in backtracking to make the ride for out-of-towners more convenient.
In any case, even if the Cranberry tube is maxxed out (which probably isn't the case), even if each and every A and C train is fully packed (which definitely isn't the case, but I'll play along), there is still capacity to spare. How so? C trains are short. (Yes, I know that on this line the express is more popular than the local. That's irrelevant when it comes to raw capacity. Having to ride a local when one prefers an express is far better than not being able to fit on a train at all.)
Cranberry is not maxed out, but how many riders would be able to fit on the trains? Granted, not every A train is completely crush loaded (and I've never seen every train on the C crush loaded), but How many people do you think will be packing themselves onto these trains? Are you trying to re-create lexington av like conditions?
The Queens Boulevard express tracks carry 30 tph, with splits/merges at Continental and at 36th, with splits/merges on the E at Queens Plaza, 50th, and Canal, with splits/merges on the F at 47-50, at 2nd, at Bergen, at 4th, and at Kings Highway. Somehow they manage.
There are only 2 splits/merges between the 30tph trains. And, I would think that QB is the case of why you DON'T want all of these people packing themselves onto these trains, you'd create another situation where trains end up being delayed, buch together and are insanely crowded as a matter of regular service.
Certainly you could do 27 tph without serious delays; various lines do that.
So by making C trains full length, and adding 4 trains, that's a nice 26% increase in capacity.
That should last until CBTC comes along and makes 36-40 tph feasible.
What makes you think that a new signal system will really add the ability for that many trips during rush hour?
This is TA logic here. It looks good on paper. "A signal system capable of doing so WILL do it".
You'll still have the same situation just at 36-40 tph. Trains standing still while the one ahead of it is loading and unloading.
I think you're missing my point. I'm not saying that crowding is good. I'm saying that, if we're going to spend a lot of money to alleviate crowding, we should do it on a line that really needs it badly -- not on a line that has room to spare through its bottleneck, not on a line that runs some short trains, not on a line that can swallow 50% more passengers without even adding more trains or more cars.
Would adding airport travelers to the A train make a bad situation even worse? Yes, slightly, but the situation would still be better than the situation found on other lines.
"I'm saying that, if we're going to spend a lot of money to alleviate crowding, we should do it on a line that really needs it badly...."
This is a clear example of missing the point. Alleviating crowding on the A is not the purpose of the JFK Link. Nowhere in the study is this stated as a purpose, or even an incidental benefit.
My point from the start was that the A train should have gone to JFK. I was shouted down by the board. Now I'm told that there really should be direct service into Manhattan. I agree! And the best way to provide that direct service is the A train, since the A train makes more than one stop in Manhattan and is of use to more people. It's too bad it's taken us this long to come to this realization, since at this point converting AirTrain to subway standards is a challenge.
To reiterate: I agree that there should be a direct link. I think it should be the A train. If you agree, great. If not, why?
In your proposal, I'm a little unclear what happens to the A after it gets to Howard Beach. Does it follow the AirTrain ROW?
Also, I don't think there's enough capacity on the A. The idea that it's theoretically possible to pack A riders in like sardines, as occurs on the QB and Lex lines, isn't exactly much of an endorsement for the idea. Just because the A isn't the worst line in the system, doesn't mean we should strive make it that way.
As you know, Brookfield's consultant determined that the Cranberry tunnel couldn't support airport service unless the C were routed through the Rutgers tunnel. If that's true, then the Fulton St line in Brooklyn cannot support airport service unless other Brooklyn service is curtailed. Since the loss of C service in Lower Manhattan is the single greatest obstacle to the Brookfield proposal's adoption, I'm guessing that they looked at it VERY HARD, and they wouldn't have suggested that unless there were no other way.
And I don't think it's desirable to provide airport service by taking service away from some other part of the system. So for all of the above reasons, I don't think the JFK link can be provided on the A.
Some trains would; others wouldn't.
Also, I don't think there's enough capacity on the A. The idea that it's theoretically possible to pack A riders in like sardines, as occurs on the QB and Lex lines, isn't exactly much of an endorsement for the idea. Just because the A isn't the worst line in the system, doesn't mean we should strive make it that way.
Refer to my posts in response to J trainloco. For one hour on weekday afternoons, if no additional trains are sent through Cranberry, and no additional cars are added to C trains, and the airport service alone newly attracts half as many passengers as already ride the A, then, for that one hour on weekday afternoons, the A train will be very crowded.
But no airport service could possibly attract such a crowd. So, even with no service increase, the A train won't be much more crowded than it is now.
If appropriate, service can be increased -- if not by adding more trains (which should be possible) then by adding cars to C trains.
And the other 97% of the week it's not even an issue.
As you know, Brookfield's consultant determined that the Cranberry tunnel couldn't support airport service unless the C were routed through the Rutgers tunnel. If that's true, then the Fulton St line in Brooklyn cannot support airport service unless other Brooklyn service is curtailed. Since the loss of C service in Lower Manhattan is the single greatest obstacle to the Brookfield proposal's adoption, I'm guessing that they looked at it VERY HARD, and they wouldn't have suggested that unless there were no other way.
Last I checked, Brookfield was interested in LIRR service between Jamaica and downtown, not in AirTrain service. The A and C would have to continue to run at their present headways to support their own traffic, and the LIRR would also have to run reasonably frequent service of its own, and that would overload the Cranberry tube. My proposal would send some existing A trains to JFK, so the only risk of starvation would be on the outer branches -- but, if that really is a problem (and I don't think it is), it could be alleviated by extending the C past Euclid.
And I don't think it's desirable to provide airport service by taking service away from some other part of the system. So for all of the above reasons, I don't think the JFK link can be provided on the A.
The only stations that might possibly be losing some service according to my proposal are the Rockaway branch stations, which all have very light usage by subway standards. In exchange, people in Inwood, Washington Heights, Harlem, West Midtown, Lower Manhattan, Downtown Brooklyn, and the Fulton Street corridor will gain direct service to JFK, and practically the entire rest of the subway-accessible city (except for the East Side near local stations) will gain single-transfer service. IMO, that's a worthwhile tradeoff.
Let's not kid ourselves. 8th avenue gets little rush hour ridership above W4th St.
Having said that, it is certainly possible to have had the "A" train go to JFK, if you wanted to increase crowding and delays on that line. The thinking that it could be done without adding a single train is prepostrous; you'd be adding another branch and you'd need the trainsets for either the A or the C to be extended to this point. But the real point is why should this be done at all? You'd be creating undesirable conditions on the line. According to Mr. Fairthorne's numbers, the Cranberry tube handles something like 126,000 inbound passengers a day. You're saying that the line could handle 190,000 inbound passengers, or roughly equal to that of the QB express. Why would you willingly create a new situation like that?
On the other hand, you have an LIRR ROW that will soon have extra capacity, and could be turned over to the subways for additional benefit. Why not utilize this instead?
The airport won't generate 64,000 passengers per day, and most of the passengers it does generate won't be traveling during rush hour anyway. So you won't have to worry about Queens Boulevard loads. (I'll bet there are more Culver - 8th Avenue passengers than there are Manhattan-bound airport passengers in the morning rush.)
I don't see how your LIRR proposal helps. It still won't be a direct ride into Manhattan -- a transfer at Jamaica is no better than a transfer at Howard Beach. It'll require extensive digging in downtown Brooklyn and it'll require a new East River tube. And in the end, if I understand your proposal correctly, it'll run up 2nd Avenue, which won't have any convenient transfer points to any other lines, so anyone not going anywhere else in Manhattan won't be able to use the line at all.
If you want to dig up downtown Brooklyn and build a new East River tube, why not connect the Manhattan and Brooklyn local tracks so the A and C don't have to share trackage at all? Then you'd have room for at least 45 tph total on the Fulton line.
The proposal is like the present actual proposal; only some trains would run to Jamaica. The rest would run Via Airtrain trackage to the Airport. Granted my proposal requires some rebuilding of Airtrain trackage, but if you're gonna spend.
And in the end, if I understand your proposal correctly, it'll run up 2nd Avenue, which won't have any convenient transfer points to any other lines, so anyone not going anywhere else in Manhattan won't be able to use the line at all.
No. At flatbush, there will be transfers to the BMT Broadway, BMT Nassau, 7th av IRT, 6th av IND exp & Lexington Av. IRT. I'd throw in another stop at Jay st. to connect with the A/C/F too (after flatbush, you could continue down Atlantic to Adams St or Run under present IND on Jay st). Finally, you'd have the direct connection to the 2nd av subway itself. 2 Train lines would be operated. The "T" (as per the TA website) would operate from 125th, through to Jamaica and then extended into queens. A second line (Labeled with the JFK exp sign) would run from midtown on 2nd av through to the Airtrain trackage. I got this idea from oakapple's posting of the Transportation to the airport plans, where one of the plans spoke of a new east river tunnel to connect to lower manhattan. I say why not build this tunnel and give a one-seat ride to midtown as well?
As for conecting the Fulton Local tracks to 2nd av as well; go for it. Though, where would the 8th av/CPW local run? Can't run it to WTC; the E already takes up all the capacity. Maybe down to W4th and then across the 6th av local to the BMT eastern division? Hmmm, this is most interesting. Of course, if the Far west side is developed, 8th av may become a very desirable destination.
I still don't see the advantage. Why zigzag up to Jamaica and back down when the A runs more or less in a straight line?
And your point is taken regarding the transfer at Atlantic-Pacific, but that's still not a substitute for the many distinct transfer points on the A. (This sure feels strange -- I usually argue that IND lines have poor connections, but the A is an exception. It connects directly to every line except the 6 and the Franklin shuttle!) A double transfer or long walk (depending on 2nd Avenue transfer opportunities) would still be necessary to get to the G, L (or would the LIRR's ENY station be a transfer point?), M, 1/9, 6, and 7.
IND locals currently have six potential routings south of W4: Fulton local, Culver local, Culver express, Williamsburg Bridge, WTC terminal, 2nd Avenue terminal. Two of the six aren't realized, since there are only four services to begin with. Eliminating one of them would only force the (re)activation of either the Williamsburg Bridge trackage or the Culver express.
There would be a transfer to the M during rush hours. Also, isn't 2nd av supposed to be connected to the 14th av "L" line? Finally, the point it to connect to the CBD, and the transfers to other lines cover every #7 CBD stop. The A doesn't provide any transfer to the 6 either, and the connections to the 1/9 are bad enough that it makes more sense to get the #2 or #3 and then the 1/9, which is exactly what the 2nd av proposal would do.
Why zigzag up to Jamaica and back down when the A runs more or less in a straight line?
I don't know, but that's what just about every proposal suggests. Could be because the Atlantic Av line has less stops, and has faster travel. Numbers posted by oakapple said that the "A" would take 61 minutes, while the new line would take only 25 or 34 (depending if they use the Cranberry tunnel or a brand new one). Interestingly, the A is 3 minutes faster than the LIRR.
IND locals currently have six potential routings south of W4: Fulton local, Culver local, Culver express, Williamsburg Bridge, WTC terminal, 2nd Avenue terminal. Two of the six aren't realized, since there are only four services to begin with. Eliminating one of them would only force the (re)activation of either the Williamsburg Bridge trackage or the Culver express
Here's the problem that I'm seeing: 6th avenue local trackage capacity. Presently, there's 20-22tph on those tracks. Can you throw in the 8th av/CPW local and not experience delays? Maybe. And we want to avoid merging it with the 8th av exp, correct? So then what can you do? unless you want 28tph on the 6th av local tracks from W4th to just north of 2nd av.
I don't know, but that's what just about every proposal suggests. Could be because the Atlantic Av line has less stops, and has faster travel. Numbers posted by oakapple said that the "A" would take 61 minutes, while the new line would take only 25 or 34 (depending if they use the Cranberry tunnel or a brand new one). Interestingly, the A is 3 minutes faster than the LIRR.
Why not do both; connect the Howard Beach end of AirTrain to the Rockaway Line's center tracks, and extend these two tracks northward onto the LIRR Rockaway ROW, then duck down into the Atlantic line? There's a huge L-shaped block over there that would allow a 90* turn to be built without killing the speed, and then from there run the Atlantic line from Flatbush through to 2nd Ave. Better yet, have loop service, some trains go to Jamaica, branch off and go to AT, to the airport, loop around and come back out on the Rockaway side, and some trains do the reverse. If FRA regulations, heavy traffic @ Jamaica, or 3rd-rail incompatibility pose a problem, a bypass can be made (a junction would be needed somewhere anyway) directly from the Atlantic line portal to the Airtrain trackage, avoiding the LIRR tracks altogether. Jamaica would still have the train to Flatbush AND JFK would have the 1-seat ride to Manhattan without crippling (or being crippled by) the A/C.
I don't know where that 61-minute reading comes from. From Howard Beach to Canal, the A train, once it shows up, takes under 40 minutes. And although this probably wouldn't be a realistic rush hour option, off-peak airport A trains could bypass most of the Queens stops to save another minute or two.
I had forgot about CC. If you're coming from Brooklyn, and you need Christopher St., you're not going all the way up to 59th.
I don't know where that 61-minute reading comes from. From Howard Beach to Canal, the A train, once it shows up, takes under 40 minutes.
Think it includes the airtrain portion as well.
I can't imagine the AirTrain will take 21 minutes to get from the airport to Howard Beach.
The Lower Manhattan Development Corporation web site says:
"Transportation Priorities for Lower Manhattan:
Long Island and JFK Airport Access Study:
Regional and airport access is crucial to Lower Manhattan's continued viability as the financial capital of the world and as the country's third largest central business district. The infrastructural investments that provide JFK airport access can at the same time serve the fast-growing counties of Long Island, and enhance the quality of travel experience for commuters."
So there are two goals: superior service between Lower Manhattan and (a) JFK airport and (b) suburban Long Island.
By zigzagging to Jamaica, they can use the LIRR Atlantic branch to attain both goals, at a premium fare I hope. They might also want to segregate the premium service from common or garden variety subway trains.
I wonder how many JFK riders want to go directly to Lower Manhattan and how many want to go to other places such as hotels or even home!
And, besides, whose money is paying for this? Subway riders already cover a disproportionate share of LIRR expenses; we don't have to make a bad situation even worse.
If the proposal called for direct LIRR access to lower Manhattan, that would be a real advantage -- though I'd still ask about the funding source.
As for the airport, I agree that lower Manhattan is one destination of many. That's why I prefer direct A service, which takes many people directly home and takes many others directly to their transfer points. I haven't seen any other link proposed that takes as many people directly home or directly to their transfer points.
The L train figures are surprising in view of the publicity the Southern Division gets. I noted this anomoly several months ago. They are currently running 15 tph into a stub terminal with bumpers. They did operate 24 tph into 8th Ave in the old days. The stations were built to handle 8-car A/B standards - 536 feet long. They could operate 9-car 60' cars. Seems that whoever wrote the specs for the R-143's and CBTC wasn't looking at current demand. They've just bought two expensive systems that were inadequate to meet current demand.
I didn't know the Canarsie line had that kind of capacity. I can't believe they would do something so stupid as that-order a whole new fleet of trains that doesn't take advantage of available capacity when the whole point of the system being tested is to improve capacity.
It says here that
The R-142/R-142A cars contain much of the new technology tested in the R-110A Test Program. The cars are configured as "A" (cab) cars, with two motor trucks, and "B" (no cab) cars, each with one motor truck; each truck has two traction motors. They are designed to be linked in 5-car semi-permanent sets in the order A-B-B-B-A but can be linked in 4, 6, 9, or 11 car sets.
Can the R-143 also be rearranged (into 3/6/9-car sets as neccessary) this way? If yes then maybe they should consider doing so.
It gives Manhattan hub-bound data by all travel modes for a 24 hour weekday in the fall of 2000.
It shows the numbers of people, and vehicles of all kinds, entering and leaving Lower Manhattan (60th Street and below), via each street, railroad line, bridge, tunnel and ferry. In the case of subways it gives numbers of trains, subway cars and riders.
As a rule of thumb, I reckon that about 20 percent of the day's subway traffic enters the hub between 8AM and 9AM.
The total subway riders per weekday, in both directions, via the Brooklyn bridges and tunnels were as follows:
BMT Manhattan Bridge: 270,321 riders in 692 trains
IND Cranberry Tunnel: 236,592 riders in 506 trains
IRT Joralemon Tunnel: 175,815 riders in 521 trains
BMT 14 Street Tunnel: 163,549 riders in 374 trains
IRT Clark Tunnel: 129,787 riders in 525 trains
BMT Montague Tunnel: 127,688 riders in 560 trains
IND Rutgers Tunnel: 125,533 riders in 383 trains
BMT Williamsburg Bridge: 87,021 riders in 422 trains
It should be remembered that in 2000, only Sixth Avenue (IND) service was operating on the Manhattan Bridge. The "flip" to Broadway (BMT) service didn't happen until July 2001.
David
Thanks for the link.
I think you need to read the study. Nothing in it suggests that they're contemplating anything along the lines you've proposed.
Rather, one of the options (the Brookfield Proposal) suggests hijacking just a brief section of the A, between Bdwy-Nassau and a connection to the LIRR's Atlantic Avenue branch just beyond Hoyt-Schermerhorn. To do this, however, the C would no longer come into Lower Manhattan.
The connection would feed directly into High Street, right? Otherwise it makes no sense to have all 3 run between Jay and Hoyt yet send the C through Rutgers (If the bottleneck could be handled on the line, why not in the tunnel?).
I am against this plan. I favor building a new East River tunnel, linking it to 2nd av, and then making the Atlantic Av. LIRR branch a super express to Jamaica. The 2nd av train could then be extended out into queens (possibly reducing QB crowding), while the JFK direct train would then head along AirTrain trackage to the Terminals.
Wouldn't that kind of hybridization cause some kind of FRA conflict? I'm not saying yours is a bad idea, actually I like it, but is it possible to mix LIRR with the subway? -Unless you either sever the Atlantic branch from the LIRR, or make the SAS an LIRR line...
Does Atlantic branch refer to the line to Brooklyn? If so,
a) Nobody's saying that except for you and on Subtalk
b) ESA and LIRR service to downtown Brooklyn are both necessary because they serve different markets. Some people continue on to Manhattan from Brooklyn, but downtown Brooklyn is a big destination all by itself.
c)The transfer to the IRT bound for Manhattan may be used a bit less by passengers whose destination is midtown. If there are such passengers on that LIRR line, they will be using ESA.
But the idea that LIRR service to Brooklyn is superfluous after ESA opens in ludicrous.
Ok, so what's happening is that from Jamaica to Downtown Brooklyn, BYCT is running express trains (no stops) on that branch. Anyone who needs downtown brooklyn can transfer there. Anyone going to Lower Manhattan can transfer there. Explain to me why LIRR needs to continue operating trains on that branch when it could be better served by putting subway on it and then getting additional riders from Northeastern Queens?
But the idea that LIRR service to Brooklyn is superfluous after ESA opens in ludicrous.
Are more LIRR passengers headed to Downtown Brooklyn because they work there or because they want to access Lower Manhattan. Granted, Downtown Brookyln is growing (i live a stone's throw away) but, The people headed there would just have to transfer once (and many people getting into Lower manhattan do that anyway.) I don't see why you couldn't discontinue LIRR service on that branch.
The alleged FRA conflict is overblown. Congress formed the FRA and could alter it.
I agree with RonInBayside that the Atlantic Avenue branch is unlikely to be converted entirely to subway. Atlantic Terminal is in the late stages of a substantial renovation, which wouldn't have been done if the intention was to abandon it after ESA is completed.
SAS isn't going to be an LIRR line. It's a subway.
I still say that the best thing to do would be running the 2nd av train and a new 'JFK express' (with Cars that can operate on Airtrain Trackage, and maybe even have luggage racks. Heck, you could even charge an extra fare onboard the train like the old JFK express) on the LIRR atlantic branch, eliminating all stops from Downtown Brooklyn to Jamaica. The extend the T into Northeastern Queens and have the JFK express go to the Airport. Seems quite simple to me.
And Brooklyn's reserve capacity would disappear in the event of a bridge outage. And it would no longer be possible to run the F express by running the V through. And several merges and diverges would have to be added. And A service would have to be cut to give people from Long Island more frequent trains and shorter waits. Bet on it.
To clarify, when I suggested that the A train itself should go to JFK, I was told that there was nothing wrong with a transfer at Howard Beach, and an ADA-compliant elevator transfer would be just as convenient as direct service, even for passengers with luggage. If that's the case, these new proposals for direct lower Manhattan service appear superfluous. Let everyone take the A train and transfer.
Time for bed. Good night. Check out my R-36ML photos and story. And if you come down to the Ritz-Carlton on Battery Place in the morning, I'll be there.
---Choo Choo
Who told you that? Yes, there are certainly arguments for this proposition, but there are also arguments against it. The main problems are that: (1) It's a 2-seat ride; (2) Subway trains are not well designed for carrying luggage, etc.; (3) The A route takes too long.
Whether it's worth billions of dollars to fix those problems is a legitimate question, but an elevator transfer at Howard Beach is certainly not as convenient as direct service. The study has a full-page table comparing airport access (both travel time and convenience) in New York to a large number of international cities. New York is well behind its competitors. There is also some evidence, albeit anecdotal, concerning the economic benefits of improving airport access.
It was the opinion of a number of posters here. I don't remember everyone on the list, but RonInBayside stands out in my memory.
Yes, there are certainly arguments for this proposition, but there are also arguments against it. The main problems are that: (1) It's a 2-seat ride;
At best. For anyone bound for points not served directly by the A train, the E train, the J/Z train, or the LIRR, it's a 3-seat (or worse) ride.
(2) Subway trains are not well designed for carrying luggage, etc.;
Not an issue, IMO. Any special airport express service won't take most passengers directly to their destinations, no matter what. Most passengers will have to transfer, and the trains they transfer to won't have luggage facilities.
If the train were a direct ride for most or even a sizeable minority of its riders, then luggage facilities would be useful. That's why I've suggested that, if the A train is extended to JFK, special rolling stock to be used on that branch of the line could be ordered with low-key luggage racks that don't substantially reduce passenger capacity. The A train, with its many stops in Brooklyn and Manhattan, would take many passengers directly to their destinations.
(3) The A route takes too long.
JFK is far away from Manhattan. What do you expect? The A train takes less than 40 minutes to get from Howard Beach to Canal Street -- given the distance, I don't think that's bad at all.
A few minutes could be shaved off that time by bypassing stations, but the more stations are bypassed, the more people lose their direct ride. Broadway Junction, Hoyt, and Jay are essential transfer points. And, unlike a dedicated line to lower Manhattan, the A train continues up the length of the borough (well, almost), stopping at many other useful destinations and transfer points.
I agree that the status quo (AirTrain to Howard Beach; transfer to the A train) is insufficient. I disagree with the solution being pursued.
David has correctly identified me in his post.
"The main problems are that: (1) It's a 2-seat ride;"
No, that's not a problem. It's a tempest in a tea kettle that means little, as the experience in Atlanta proves. A circulator connecting to a subway works just fine. Of course, political detractors will argue anything that is convenient to them, and in New York, there's no shortage of people like that.
" (2) Subway trains are not well designed for carrying luggage, etc.;"
Not an issue either, as passengers on Metrorail in Washington, MARTA in Atlanta, and NJ Transit (whose commuter rail cars are not as luggage friendly as they could be) have shown
(3) The A route takes too long.
Only from Manhattan and western Brooklyn. Which is why AirTrain also goes to Jamaica, where passengers on LIRR lines from Manhattan, the island and Brooklyn will access it.
If there is any substantial cab traffic to Howard Beach, it won't be from Manhattan -- it'll be from the airport, carrying passengers who realize that a cab is cheaper than AirTrain.
The airtrain from lower manahttan will be alot quicker and predictable then a cab ride out to JFK at 4 in the afternoon
Of course, rogue nonlicensed drivers and non-medallion cabs are always a problem, but those people get chased off or locked up periodically.
They were not shot down, because you never presented these ideas to anyone, except on Subtalk, which doesn't count for much. Get off your butt, submit those ideas to the folks who really count, and then see what happens.
And I was still in medical school in Philadelphia when they started studying it. That didn't prevent me from writing a letter to the Port Authority to find out how I could help push it along.
You're just rationalizing your laziness.
You think that's bad? Many Subtalkers' grandparents weren't yet born when the Second Avenue Subway was first proposed.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
You Sea Beach is gaining the bridge at the expense of the residents and workers at 6 stations (City Hall through Lawrence St.) that are busier than the entire Sea Beach ridership combined!
Larry Littlefield presented one idea that he said was under review by Pataki: extending the 2nd Avenue subway in a new tunnel and then connecting it to the LIRR atlantic Avenue Branch. I'd like to write to someone in support of this plan. Mr. Bayside, can you tell me to whom I should write for this?
Start with:
Douglas Sussman, Deputy Director
MTA Govt. and Community Relations
347 Madison Avenue
New York NY 10017
You can also address to Peter Kalikow, Chairman, at that same address.
Also, send a copy of your letter to Governor Pataki in Albany (State Capitol, Albany NY 12224). Further copies should be sent to your local assembly person and state senator.
They say that the reason the S Ferry loop reduces capacity is because the trains stop at Rector St for an extended period of time to make sure everyone moves to the front 5 cars.
I've never noticed, but I don't use that part of the 1/9 very often. Has anyone else noticed?
Also, I think I understand how the 6 Brooklyn Bridge loop reduces capacity there: the occasional desperate need for a bathroom stop.
It's a long run from Pelham Bay to BB and back without a break, and probably the occasional T/O or C/R needs to make a quick run for it at BB.
Example: Tuesday at BB I saw a 6 sitting at the downtown platform with its doors closed for a long time. Finally it started to pull out into the loop, and just then the bell rang and green light flashed on the northbound side indicating it was supposed to be on its way. Since it took a few minutes to navigate the loop, it was several minutes late departing BB, and there were several SB trains backed up behind it. I can't think of any explanation for this serious lack of adherence to schedule other than a bathroom break that just couldn't wait.
Then there would have to be facilities at the yards for cleaning and servicing the donickers.
That one month or so between transverse introduction and C/R punching was the only time I remember delays at Rector other than those caused by backups at SF itself - train can't leave the station due to Ferry arrival, next train stuck between stations, third train stuck at Rector by signals.
Most of the day, there's a wait of a few minutes at Chambers NB before the starting lights turn on. If that's causing delays, the starting lights could be turned on earlier.
--Mark
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/06/nyregion/06TUNN.html
It's free...all you need is registration. I especially love the last 2 paragraphs of the article. Just hilarious, but I'll let you read it for yourself. :)
Looks like Randy Kennedy is out of ideas, like Allan said.
$3.5 Million HO Scale Layout
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
A Train - R44 #5237
A Train - R38 #4074
GO SEE IT!
It is worth it!
--Mark
I would like to apply for October exam but before I put in my $50 M.O. and the application, I always appreciate the help I can get in answering this important subject.
Thank you for all the insight you can provide, maybe a TSS of T/O on this board might have a more specific answer on this. And yes, the Q (or soon to be B train) will be my favorite pick but I will have to start on extra list first so that won't happen anytime soon.
BTW, what does New York State DMV say about issuing a driver license to someone with epilepsy, who is on medication?
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/traffic/articles/4635429?source=Evening%20Standard
"Crossrail in jeapordy"
By Dick Murray, Transport Editor, Evening Standard
1 May 2003
Crossrail faced a potentially fatal blow today as the Government revealed costs have soared to £15billion and it could take more than a decade to build.
This increases doubt on whether the controversial project for a twinbore rail tunnel through central London - from Paddington station in the west to Liverpool Street in the east, connecting existing main line services - will ever be built.
Transport Secretary Alistair Darling confirmed that estimates for the latest Crossrail proposal, which includes variations and branch lines, are £10billion-£15billion. He also indicated that Crossrail would not be needed this decade.
"The system in 20 years' time will not be able to cope," he said. "We'll need additional capacity for transport in London."
However, the Department of Transport said no final decision had been taken.
In January the Evening Standard revealed that the line would not be built in the foreseeable future. If it were built, it would take up all the money needed to improve the rest of the national rail system.
The article described Crossrail as the line which everyone wants - but nobody wants to pay for. (end of report)
Crossrail would connect two main-line terminals with a tunnel capable of carrying main-line commuter trains, thereby relieving overcrowding on the Central line tube and other underground lines.
The Crossrail web site (www.crossrail.co.uk) urges an end to the speculation, saying that the Government continues to support the Crossrail project "in principle", and that there has been "no decision not to proceed".
Give him a break, Juice. That series is now 24 years old. I haven't seen it since its first run on PBS but still remember it. He may never have seen it. But if he doesn't know who Emma Peel is, then he isn't much of an Englishman.
Tom
I used to watch PBS Masterpiece Theater with Alastair Cooke, not to mention Sesame Street's "Monsterpiece Theater with Alastair Cookie". I do vaguely remember the UXB series.
In Britain I used to read Alastair Cooke's "Letter from America" in the Manchester Guardian newspaper, or listen to it on the BBC. His reports on America were always factual but fascinating. He had a very special way with words.
My cockney accent is a little rusty, but I seem to have gotten away with it. Thank you both for your interest and concerns!
Emma Peel was the character played by Dame Diana Rigg early in her career (1965-1967) in the TV series, "The Avengers."
Tom
AFAIK, this past tense is wrong. Alastair Cooke (now aged over 90) still broadcasts his weekly "Letter from America" on BBC radio. It is said to be the longest-running broadcast programme anywhere in the world, having been broadcast for over 60 years!
Apologies for that short ... extract, but there's no way I can bring Alastair on topic. Heh.
My only gripe is that a lot of the drama isn’t archived for rights reasons.
--Mark
But unlike the SAS the line would extend beyond the central area, with branches reaching far into the outer suburbs. And it would carry full sized main-line commuter trains.
It is comparable in scope and cost to the SAS and the ESA combined.
There was also going to be a Crossrail Two!
Before we get too rude about London, it should also be pointed out that, unlike a certain city that one could mention, it actually *has* built quite a lot of new rail rapid transit in the last few years (the Jubilee Line extension, the Docklands Light Railway and the Croydon Tramlink).
I hear that the Jubilee line extension is an architectural showpiece, but weak on convenient transfers to other lines. And why was it not extended from its terminal at Charing Cross, which closed when the extension was opened?
CrossRail seems a good idea, but at 15 billion pounds it would be no great bargain.
Thameslink 2000 planned to run 24 trains per hour through the existing north-south tunnel; that could be operationally difficult, given that the 24 trains came from a dozen or so far away places. Last I heard was that the inspector objected to the improved London Bridge station because it wasn't expensive enough!
I hear that the Jubilee line extension is an architectural showpiece, but weak on convenient transfers to other lines."
Only at Canary Wharf, where the station is some distance from the Docklands Light Rail station - in fact it is somewhat closer to the *next* DLR station, Heron Quays (DLR stations are very close together in that section). The other interchanges (Stratford, West Ham, Canning Town, Canada Water, Waterloo, Westminster) are o.k.
"And why was it not extended from its terminal at Charing Cross, which closed when the extension was opened?"
The temporary terminus at Charing Cross was based on the assumption tha the Jubilee Line would eventually be extended east under Fleet Street - hence its original proposed name, the Fleet Line. In the event, plans changed between the 1970s and the 1990s, and the Jubilee Line was sent south of the river. A third line from Charing Cross to Waterloo (the Bakerloo and Northern Lines both cover that already) would have been excessive, while an additional service to Westminster station, which previously only had the District/Circle lines, was a benefit.
"CrossRail seems a good idea, but at 15 billion pounds it would be no great bargain.
Thameslink 2000 planned to run 24 trains per hour through the existing north-south tunnel; that could be operationally difficult, given that the 24 trains came from a dozen or so far away places. Last I heard was that the inspector objected to the improved London Bridge station because it wasn't expensive enough!"
At present Thameslink can only run eight tph, with four tph of those not seving London Bridge station and using the less convenient route through Elephant & Castle. The bottleneck restricting Thameslink's capacity is not only London Bridge station, but the whole section between the Croydon to London Bridge main line (which carries the Thameslink in from the south) through Borough Market Junction and Metropolitan Junction to Blackfriars station. There are conflicting movements (with trains in and out of Charing Cross main line terminus) at these flat junctions, so that any late running of Thameslink trains quickly ramifies into delays all across southeast London. They need to be replaced with flying junctions if the Thameslink's capacity is to be increased, and that is very expensive. I didn't see the inspector's comments, but maybe he meant that the junction improvements proposed were not sufficient to achieve the objectives, and a more expensive scheme was needed. Some other parts of the Thameslink 2000 scheme may happen - the replacement of the inadequate Kings Cross Thameslink station with a new St Pancras Thameslink certainly will (next year), and is part of the massive reconstruction of the entire Kings Cross St Pancras complex that it currently in progress.
I read the on-line report on the Thameslink 2000 public hearing. There were doubts about the at-grade junctions south of Blackfriars, and about the ability to synchronize 24 trains per hour from so many distant places. These are serious concerns.
But on these engineering matters the inspector deferred to Railtrack. He objected instead to the architecture of the modified London Bridge station, saying that it was another incremental change and not worthy of a world-class city. He favored a more expensive design, but he didn't say where the extra 150 million pounds would come from.
The inspector's report was on-line, but I cannot find it any more.
It is true that the 24 trains per hour would have come from a wide variety of places both north and south of London, up to 50 or more miles away, and it is inconceivable that all of them would always arrive in central London dead on time. So even if the capacity of the junctions had theoretically been increased to 24 tph, trouble would occur very frequently, whenever trains arrived at those junctions out of schedule.
"First Crossrail. Doesn't this farce demonstrate that it is the political system that has failed? No developed Country would have allowed the fatally flawed railway privatisation to go ahead in the first place, considering the degree of opposition from anyone who understood the railway industry. This one policy has completely prevented any major rail development going ahead, in turn resulting in a vast increase in costs. The only genuine improvement scheme, the CTRL has been effected on time and on budget because it is virtually a combination of French expertise and American financial acumen. It's basically a TGV line built in Britain. Left to our own devices aka the WCML it's a shambles.
We have as Transport Minister a man who, with a straight face can say that Crossrail is not needed till the next decade! If that's the case why have we wasted 15 years, and many £millions on feasibility studies, planning, route development etc for something that is not needed? How is it we finish up with one man, appointed by Govt. telling the second city of the Nation that it `isn't a priority'! Why the blazes should the decision to double the track on a main line in Cornwall be at the behest of this same bloke in London? There is no strategic thinking by the people who should really be planning transport for the future, the DTP. Railways are an optional extra for Britain. Surely Crossrail is either needed or it's not. It couldn't be needed 15 years ago and not now. Similarly with Thameslink and the high-speed route to the North. Other Countries decide what will be needed and gradually work towards it. Not have a `yes we will, no we wont ` policy depending on the financial climate at the time! It's a ludicrous way to proceed, or not!"
Partial Translation:
Crossrail = an ambitions plan comparable to ESA plus SAS (funding in jeopardy, see previous posting).
Thameslink = a similar but cheaper project, using existing tunnels.
WCML = West Coast Main Line from London to Glasgow.
CTRL = Channel Tunnel Rail Link, a prestigious project with high political priority, using new tunnels to carry 18-car Eurostar trains from the Channel Tunnel to a refurbished Victorian Gothic terminal at London's St. Pancras Station. Will cut all of 30 minutes from the journey time. Highly likely to be completed on time. Approved by the European Union.
Bloke in London = The Minister of Transport.
That last sentence - "Will cut all of 30 minutes from the journey time" - seems to imply an opinion that the project is not worthwhile. It needs to be pointed out that most of the miles of the Paris-London rail journey are in France, where they are already on TGV (high-speed) lines, so not much further speeding-up can occur there. The distance from the English portal of the Channel Tunnel to London is about 80 miles. Cutting 30 minutes off the running time of an 80-mile journey sounds pretty good to me. It implies improving from 80 mph to 160mph, 70 mph to 120 mph, or 60 mph to 96 mph.
Perhaps I was wrong to belittle the benefits of the CTRL, but my suspicion was that the project is being pushed ahead for political reasons, to reaffirm Britain's place in Europe, and/or because of European Community funding.
In fact the line is nearly all new. It branches off the existing line just west of Ashford station (where some Eurostar trains stop, anyway), and it's all new construction from there to St Pancras. Ashford station is only a few (5-6?) miles from the tunnel portal. The route into London Waterloo station that has been used since the Channel Tunnel opened contained hardly any new construction beyond the stations at Ashford and Waterloo.
It can't be said that this has been built in a hurry, though. The French had their high-speed line in place when the Channel Tunnel opened or shortly thereafter, and the British side has been much criticised for using a slow route, with many other slower services sharing it, ever since that time.
You would be one of the very few who does. Aside from the fact that it doesn't go far enough, it has been very much a success. Extending the lower level further along Archer would be nice, though.
"I would have the el built to the standard of the Queens Blvd Viaduct on the 7. Less noise and very attractive."
You'll have to do better than that. Nobody is clamoring to tear down the viaduct, of course, but buiding standards have advanced pretty far since that was built.
"The Hillside Line will rise out of the subway after 179 St station and connect to the new el at 185 St and Jamaica Ave. The IND and BMT will become one at the new 187 Street station. "
Politically impossible and a waste of money. Besides, why invite NIMBY problems when you can extend the Hillside Av line underground along Hillside a couple of miles, and really do some good?
"The Archer Ave line will be converted to a shuttle operation and 121 Street station will be rebuilt to handle two island platforms and a center stub track for the terminating shuttle."
A lot of riders would be looking to string you up...a good thing this is Subtalk.
"If it was built, will you say the project was worth it? And plus, as a bonus, only R32 and R42/R40S and M can ride the new el. No R46. Even R143 is welcome to ride. No 75 footers. Is it worth it?"
In HO gauge, on your living room floor, absolutely! Start construction tomorrow - skip the EIS.
Jimmy
Ya know....that's something worth contemplating. With all our collective interests in this here Special Interest Group...be nice if we could somehow "finance" such a project. That is, a complete replication of the subway system in HO gauge. Or at least, all the elevated and trench and surface lines in Brooklyn. To scale, no less. Any local railfan Lotto winners out there?
I don't consider it a failure, but rather a disappointment for one small item. There is no track connection from the lower to upper level. I'm not alone is making that statement, others have too.
However, the Sutphin Blvd. looks like a failure. Some ceramic floor tiles are cracking and breaking up, the upper level ceiling looks filthy and most of the mercury vapor lamps are barely glowing and water leaks have been seen. Can we call Sutphin Blvd, son of Chambers St. ? Others here on SubTalk have commented on the dilapidated state of Sutphin Blvd. The handicapped elevators are OOS and boarded up. A few years ago I rode one that smelled like a urinal !
As for your ideas of ressurrecting a Jamaica "el", it's nice to dream. Maybe you ought to wake up !
That would require an extension of the existing lines, or at least one of them. Connecting the J and E east of Parsons/Archer, without such an extension, wouldn't accomplish a great deal. I doubt it would be worth the cost.
Non revenue transfers, work equipment and money train moves to name a few. Now to install a connection if the need came up would be cost prohibitive. The T.A. has money troubles these days !
Bill "Newkirk"
Hopefully, once the work at Jamaica LIRR is finished, there'll be pressure for a complete renovation of Sutphin. It certainly needs one.
Arcitecturally I really like that station. But I agree that it needs work. At least one other Subtalker has posted something about too much ground water in the area to not have to fight water leaks constantly, that it would be a fact of life there, just like moisture in a basement. I don't know what the right solution is.
Also, no point in connecting Jamaica and Hillside. Too much service, unless it went somewhere like Green Acres, Roosevelt Field, etc. All it does is take all those who would normally take certain 165 St or Archer Av buses and put them on the train instead. Not a bad idea, but having combined double headway service is not neccessary. Perhaps one or the other could turn at the "187 St" station, or the J/V (or whatever locals) could turn while the F/Z (expresses) go on. It could also just be non-revnue trackage, useful for reroutes.
In order to work it would also require realignment of bus routes such that none run along (or closely parallel) Hillside or Jamaica Aves, and those that feed into it would terminate at the nearest station.
But this still leaves the problem of LIRR passengers without a convenient transfer at Jamaica. That would not neccessarily be a severe problem, but it could certainly create some interesting scenarios. Jamaica station itself would dwindle somewhat in importance, except as a transfer point between various LIRR branches.
Its not a failure, just disappointing that it didn't go to at least Merrick Blvd if the full line to s/e Queens wasn't built; which it wasn't. As for Hillside, new els are UNDESIRABLE these days, its better to keep it a subway under Hillside to eastern Queens & its saving time over riding the Q1 & Q43.
And the maintenance of the structure is not higher than the cost of maintaining a subway tunnel.
Plus, it wouldn't be dark below the el at all.
Not without proper lighting affixed to the structure, of course. The Broadway El has quite a few lights under it. Provided the El doesn't go via a ROW, lighting would only be an issue at night (solved by streetlights) and during noon.
And the maintenance of the structure is not higher than the cost of maintaining a subway tunnel.
Ahh, there's the catch. I knew it had to be something I wasn't thinking of. BTW, which costs more to build?
The Fulton Subway is without a doubt quieter than the Broadway El. You can hear a train, but you don't hear it like the Broadway line.
Not without proper lighting affixed to the structure, of course. The Broadway El has quite a few lights under it. Provided the El doesn't go via a ROW, lighting would only be an issue at night (solved by streetlights) and during noon.
I'm talking daytime. Broadway/Myrtle is one of the darkest places I've even seen in the middle of the day. At night, it might make the street actually have MORE lighting. What exactly do you mean ROW? The El itself is a ROW, isn't it?
Besides, buildings are almost always right next to the el, and this doesn't allow sunlight onto the street below.
Ahh, there's the catch. I knew it had to be something I wasn't thinking of. BTW, which costs more to build?
Subway, by far. And, if there are problems with the tunnel, it's maintenance costs can run high (Lenox Av being the best example of this). But El's have to be regularly painted, and are exposed to the elements. Any el that's not properly maintained would require expensive rebuilding, a la Franklin Av. In the long run, a subway is a much better investment, for land value, and for maintenance cost. I don't know if the newer type of el structures have a lower maintenance cost (i.e. Airtrain)
That's an unfair comparison, as the Broadway El is steel/wood. I'm talking steel/concrete. And if you mean someplace like Utica or Jay St, where the line is three levels deep, then of course it is quiter, it is so far down. The proposed El would make no more noise (probably less) than the sound of cars on the thoroughfare on top of which it would be built. And if there is no such level of traffic in the particular corridor, chances are that area wouldn't warrant a line being built in the first place. Either the sound would be drowned out by traffic or would replace the sound of traffic with the sound of trains.
Subway, by far. And, if there are problems with the tunnel, it's maintenance costs can run high (Lenox Av being the best example of this). But El's have to be regularly painted, and are exposed to the elements. Any el that's not properly maintained would require expensive rebuilding, a la Franklin Av. In the long run, a subway is a much better investment, for land value, and for maintenance cost.
OK, I'll believe that Els cost more to maintain, but because of paint? You've got to come up with something better than that. Replacing tiles is probably equally costly to painting El structures. As for land value, unless the line is wide and the street is narrow, which would cause El trains to come right next to your window, it shouldn't be a problem. If the line were engineered right, the express stations would be higher up so as to avoid hugging the buildings (like the lighting problem you described at Myrtle Av/Bway), and most of the line would be above the height of most buildings (assuming the whole street isn't lined with 5+ story buildings).
So all I see that is in favor of subways is that they are cheaper to maintain, which would explain why so many els were built (cheap to construct) and thus torn down (expensive to keep). But I don't see specifically what it is about subways that is so much cheaper to maintain than Els. Are there any quotable figures for cost of maintaining an (average) El vs. cost of maintaining a(n average) subway?
Now that we have to pay ten consultants and contractors to remove old lead paint every time we apply new paint, painting has become very expensive indeed.
Other than than, I've not sure Els are more expensive to maintain. My guess is that subways are. The cost of fan plants, water pumps, reconstruction due to water damage etc. is considerable. Els were removed due to neighborhood effects, not cost.
All things considered, we're best off with the trains on the ground a la the Brighton, rather than over it or under it, in all but the densest locations. The trains on the embankment make little noise compared with those in the air. Maybe Boss Tweed was right.
I know. I'm just trying to get at the exact reason why residents oppose them. So far, I've got nothing but "undesirable". Undesirable is not a reason, but rather a word that sums up one's opinion. Residents are entitled to their opinion, but nobody has yet given me a reason why they have that opinion.
As for why people don't want els running in their neighborhood: it's unsightly. Who wants an elevated structure running down their street, and causing noise? It's just not something that beautifies the neighborhood.
Who wants an elevated structure running down their street,
People who don't have cars or don't want to add to the traffic nightmare that is New York City, yet want a relatively fast commute (bus is too slow, and express buses, too, are a victim of traffic).
and causing noise?
Cars, the people next door, and airplanes flying overhead can make just as much noise in a busy corridor.
It's just not something that beautifies the neighborhood.
What if part of the structure was concrete walls covered with murals, (like the beautiful wall @ that SEPTA station, underground, with 4 tracks, one of those 3 "Center City" zone stations - I don't remember the name, only that it isn't 30 St).
Bah, forget it. I give up. I guess people just hate Els, because-like the Apple Jacks commercial says-"they just 'do'."
1. This does not mean that you should keep building more undesirable things.
2. When was the last time one of these was constructed?
Bah, forget it. I give up. I guess people just hate Els, because-like the Apple Jacks commercial says-"they just 'do'."
It really isn't nice if you live on that street.
Who wants an elevated structure running down their street,
People who don't have cars or don't want to add to the traffic nightmare that is New York City, yet want a relatively fast commute (bus is too slow, and express buses, too, are a victim of traffic).
and causing noise?
Cars, the people next door, and airplanes flying overhead can make just as much noise in a busy corridor.
It's just not something that beautifies the neighborhood.
What if part of the structure was concrete walls covered with murals, (like the beautiful wall @ that SEPTA station, underground, with 4 tracks, one of those 3 "Center City" zone stations - I don't remember the name, only that it isn't 30 St).
Bah, forget it. I give up. I guess people just hate Els, because-like the Apple Jacks commercial says-"they just 'do'."
The subway would cost far more but as Jtrainloco said, maintenance on els are VERY costly and I said that people don't really find els desirable nowadays, not that I don't like the els.
BTW: My line does pop out from the underground to run as an elevated along both Jamaica and Merrick Blvd. By elivated I mean a modern concrete viaduct with minimal physical and visual disruption at street level, and virtually SILENT operation. Stations are also much further apart than on most elevateds.
Oh well, enjoy your fantasy!
Elias : )
Jimmy
I may be wrong...
And BTW, it's Flatbush41! :)
http://www.straphangers.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000326
I'm still here, reading some posts and posting an occasional thread.
Bill "Newkirk"
You forgot one more person, ME (lol). Anyway, congrats on completing your college finals, hope you did excellent. And yes it's good to see your handle back in action, as all I can say: "Welcome back to Subtalk."
A total of 21 of these 4000HP diesel-hydraulic locomotives were exported to the US from Germany and were assigned as follows:
Denver & Rio Grande Western 4001-4003 1961
Southern Pacific 9000-9002 1961
Southern Pacific 9003-9017 1963
The four D&RGW units were sold to SP in 1964 and became 9021-9023.
All are now retired.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
This afternoon, I rode a (7) out to 33 St, waiting on the nb platform for 9542/3 to come by. I spotted them on a sb train and photographed them. Wanting to now ride them, I waited a while and then took a (7) to Woodside, where I was guaranteed to catch the cars no matter if they ran local or (hopefully) express.
About 10 minutes later, the R-36ML's showed up EXPRESS and I rode the anti-railfan window all the way to Flushing. Employing my new GPS receiver, I recorded a TOP SPEED of 44 MPH, just south of Junction Blvd.
At Main St Flushing, I hung around for a few minutes while they cleaned the train and prepared it for its journey south. Once we pulled out, I took a bunch of interior photos and enjoyed the ride. At Times Sq, I took a few more photos.
Overall, it was a wonderful day, and it couldn't have fallen into place any better than it did. Also, I'd like to thank all of the MTA employees and policeman who refrained from giving me even the slightest dirty look the entire time. Thank you! Below, is a photo taken at 33 St. The rest of the photos can be found here: http://www.railfanwindow.com/temp/2003.05.07/r-36ml_2.html
Enjoy!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Also when the B-Divsion gets their new subway cars, there's going to be a lot of drama here if the R32's disappear(which I doubt). I hope the Slants aren't touched either. The oldies rock! Who needs new trains?
As for the buses(esp. where I'm at), there isn't an interesting past with them. We have.... RTS's. So what? They're all over the place. Right now, I don't see myself missing them that much, but that will change in the future.
So I say, don't bring in the R160's so soon. I'll settle with oldies on the (J) and (M) lines.
Photo taken today 5/7/2003 at around 6pm
ROFL
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
(P.S., for those of you who can't read what it says, it says "BOMBAJUNK," and it's on both ends of the car...)
As for the vandalism, the same people who commit the senseless and ILLEGAL acts are the same ones, majority from inner city minority communities, who wonder why high price businesses and organizations, and the government don't even waste a cent to bring something nice into the inner-city community. Every time someone paints a nice mural, opens up a new clean park or something nice and positive donated to the community, these same idiots do nothing but vandalize it, loiter in it and dirty the place up without any kind of shame. Why should the new cars be any different. Besides majority of vandalism stays because either some cleaners don't give a f***, and don't waste time cleaning it when it's reported, or the job is improperly done, and residual sight of the vandalism remains. That part of how some TA people work is what I call a case of the F***-its!!
Don't like it? Open a subway car factory in your basement and bid on the contracts.
-Robert King
I know someone who works at - not for - TD Bank and has been for over a year, as a temp agency substitute.
Building on that theme, companies also like to contract entire departments out to service companies, basically temping on a larger scale.
Another good one is to keep employees as part time employees as far as technicalities are concerned, which saves a lot in terms of pay and benefits but squeeze them to the max. by scheduling them to work 37 hours a week, keeping them just below the full time threshold of 40 hrs/week. Such fine American companies as Starbucks and Walmart are well known to engage in this particular practice.
This has nothing to do with Canada, specifically Bombardier.
-Robert King
I'm not particularly familiar with the laws in this area, but I do know that, from the standpoint of medical benefits at least, the threshold is somewhat lower than that, at least in New Jersey - 24 hours/week, I believe.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Bill "Newkirk"
What a bad pun...
Being a frequent (7) rider, I appreciate the R62A's. It would be funny to see this vandal fall out of a rusted-out Redbird.
All vandals fit this bill.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
A new consist arrived, I just don't know what they are. Calling WideCab5! Calling WideCab5!
-Stef
---Choo Choo
-Stef
My e-mail box was empty.
1181-1185 came in Monday. 1186-1190 at Fresh Pond yesterday. They must have gotten to East 180 tonight.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Thanks for that info. 1200s are not too far away...
-Stef
I don't mind 1 bit!!! (ka dum ching!!!)
:X
On the last three days though, they took down the tubelights and replaced them with temporary string of halogen bulbs. For the first time the light shined up to the top of the vault. It seemed to reach up to the underside of the sidewalk itself (but that seems a bit improbable).
If it does reach that high, then MTA could put reinforced glass bricks to let the light shine in. The chasm is long enough and wide enough for those Herald Square Yab-Yum style giant red mobiles. In fact the walls big enough could be used for a giant mosaic or mural.
Ironically the vaulted ceiling is immediately south of the god-awful sight of the Melting Ceiling thanks to years of leaks. Some of the sights and smells of DeKalb are a bit much. Can't wait for the rehab to finish. Those tiles need a serious cleaning too.
Painting the roof of the south-bound 4th Avenue track white really magnifies the light and brightens up the whole platform. So why did they paint the Brighton line track roof black? Makes no sense.
DeKalb has so much potential, I really hope they do a great rehabilitation.
---Choo Choo
Indeed the station does cut into the building line of Flatbush Avenue. Though I swear I could see the underside of the sidewalks.
I always wondered why the IRT skylights were covered.
-Stef
On the last three days though, they took down the tubelights and replaced them with temporary string of halogen bulbs. For the first time the light shined up to the top of the vault. It seemed to reach up to the underside of the sidewalk itself (but that seems a bit improbable).
If it does reach that high, then MTA could put reinforced glass bricks to let the light shine in. The chasm is long enough and wide enough for those Herald Square Yab-Yum style giant red mobiles. In fact the walls big enough could be used for a giant mosaic or mural.
Ironically the vaulted ceiling is immediately south of the god-awful sight of the Melting Ceiling thanks to years of leaks. Some of the sights and smells of DeKalb are a bit much. Can't wait for the rehab to finish. Those tiles need a serious cleaning too.
Painting the roof of the south-bound 4th Avenue track white really magnifies the light and brightens up the whole platform. So why did they paint the Brighton line track roof black? Makes no sense.
DeKalb has so much potential, I really hope they do a great rehabilitation.
Flushing Line Riders report back if you see anything out of the ordinary.
-Stef
-Stef
-Stef
---Choo Choo
(nothing, except for my photos and one number board off an R-26)
So join Branford and you too can play with the R-17.
And don't get your hopes up. It was a Mosholu Wash heading home. The T/O must have been messing with the signs.
You don't want to share? :)
*flash!*
Aww crap. Picture came out black. Apparently I set it on a different mode beforehand and the settings were reset.
I've seen ones like the 'No Windstorming' one.
1. "Do not bomb Iraq"
2. "Do not build prisons"
3. "Do not cut jobs"
I saw two stickers on an R46 V several weeks ago, and R32 #3427, this poor car had all three stickers in different places covering the "Do not lean on door" sign, including one on the interior storm door. Funny how they can get it to be the exact font as the one on the subway. (But the sticker is a faint black up close)
Does anyone know what time they got them? From other posts, it seems that people who showed up later in the day did get the notices.
Windows...we do that. Brakes, oil, propulsion, batteries. Drive in for service. CI peter
Peace,
ANDEE
He became a 'cause celeb' because former Mayor Ed Koch (among others) felt he should be given leniancy due to his 'enthusianism' to operate a subway train.
I know of at least one person on this board who has done just that. I won't mention Selkirks name. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Discuss :)
1. One trip metrocards should be sold at agent booths.
2. Credit cards should be take in the machines for one ride tickets.
Even in both Paris and London the machines take credit cards for single tickets. Why not NY?
PATCO stations are unmanned. You have to obtain change from a machine which accepts bills and dispenses dollar coins. The farecard and ticket machines accept these coins as payment.
Sounds like an unnecessary extra step. It would be easier to have the farecard and ticket machines accept bills.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah a Metrocard Vending Machine is perhaps a better solution, but it comes some 30 years after the PATCO system was started.
Checked on the way home, 1s, 5s, 10s and 20s. You have 20s, it has change for you.
Rode car 112 home, normally I love riding the Budd Single units, especially 101 and 102, but 112 sounds HORRIBLE! There seem to be several flat spots, and the whole car sounds like it's falling apart at the seams, just one big rattle, 16th and Locust to Woodcrest. It was VERY uncharacteristic of normal PATCO cars, I thought 256 and 208 were bad, but 112 takes the cake.
Perhaps tommorow on the way in or out I'll make a quick survey of stations, but I'm not sure how many I can see from inside fare control (if only PATCO had a 30day unlimited!). I should be able to easily reach Haddonfield, Lindenwold and Ashland just through a quick drive from Woodcrest.
We are all awaiting PATCO's upgrade of the fare-collection system.
Someone should inform the TA of the existance of such machines!!
Or they should simply set the current machines to dispense more of those lousy dollar coins. This would be keeping with the TA tradition of subtly sticking it to their customers.
with a $2 fare and no need to dispense quarters. It would make sense to stock the machines with more dollar coins using the former quarters storage binns and at the the very least increase the change limit to $8 to allow single ride metrocard purcahces with a $10 bill.
Removing quarters from MVM's would most likely tripple the machines cahnge dispensing ability. There is no longer a need to dispense quarters as all fares are now in even dollar increments.
As for the fun pass issue. the mta shouls change it's policy and dispense 13 dollar coins. Once A rider gets stuck with 13 heavy coins in his pocket once, he/she will think twice aboutt doing it again
I have to differ. The machines do dispense quarters. I had to bring my current PPR card up to an amount evenly divided by $2 (I had $8.50 on it). I put $2.00 in the machine, selected "other amount" so thatI could add $1.50 to make an even $10, and I got back 2 quarters in change.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Noone is stoping you from depostiing two quarters
Where?
They are called ATM for Automatic Teller Machines.
They have been around since the late 1970s and are capable of counting out paper money with incredible accuracy.
Beautiful! Anything to encourage use of the $1 coin and discourage the use of the $1 bill (a better way would be for the Treasury to discountinue the $1 bill and print more $2 bills).
In the case of NYCT. It may make sense to relax the change standard a bit to allow $8 change on single ride purchaces and $13 cange on fun pass purchaces and look into installing larger change dispensers.
Riders over time will not want 13 dollar coins in their pockets and thus refain fron using larger bills
The mroe larger bills entered will increase the capasity for the machines to accept bills. I see more machines run out of space to store bill then run out of change.
Plus the fun pass will be less ad less popular at the current price. Tourist usually travel in pairs ths buy multiple fun passes at a time.
You need to make MVM's more flexible especially at boothless entrances to appease the critics. Riders will adjust. No one wants 13 gold coins in thier pocket. They will refreain from using 20's to purchace metrocards.
Why doesne the MTa explore issuing franchises to ATM operators to operate ATM's inside subway station separate from the MVM's. It will provide a nice source of non-transit revenue for the MTA. The MTA could stiplulate that the machines dispense $10 bills instead of $20 solving many of the problems.
Such a contract would be so lucrative that the $10 bill requirement would not be a problem. The ATM operator would need to install larger bill storach bins. The contractor would be responcible for all maintance and would split the suervice charge with the MTA.
The money could be used for staionsecurity enhancemetns. ATM's in the subway would bring in between $25-50 million a year in revenues.
You have not been paying much attention, have you.
In many cases riders don't have a choice because the ATMs that they use dispense $20 bills.
So instead of going to the ATM for cash to buy their Metrocards, they'll just use their ATM cards in the MVMs.
In addtion the MTA should issue a franchise to an ATM netword to install ATM's in subway stations.. As part of the contract the ATM's should stock $10 bills
Plus as I mentioned in a previos post. The MVM's have more room to issue more dollar pieces no that they no longer need to stock quarters.
They should allow $8 dollars change
as for the Fun Passes. this is a far smaller issue.
Ypu can still add two quarter if you need to even out the value on your card. You just could not use a dollar to add 50 cents
No one will die if they can't get quarters as cahnge.
It would help far more riders if the MVM's had more dollar coins to provide change and increase the availablity of MVM's
It helps far more riders to be able to get $8 in cahnge vs $6
In addditon, unless you add rides in $10 intervals you will end up with values not divisable buy quarters more often then you would get card values divisable by quarters
David Greenberger says he tried out various combinations, and you can add any multiple of $.05.
So to round off your card, add $12.10, and with bonus, it'll be 14.50, rounding off a $1.50 card to $16.00.
That was me, not David Greenberger.
$12.10 with bonus would be $14.52, leaving 2 cents.
The amount to add to round off a card with $1.50 is $13.75
To be fair, I didn't follow through on the transaction, but the machine was ready to accept my money as long as the last digit was a 0 or a 5.
I expect to be taking advantage of that. My MetroCard currently has a balance of $23.90. (I'm not sure why someone would end up with a balance of $1.20, but I found two such cards.)
Buy $27 and get $29.70. Maybe thinking "I want 20 rides worth so if I buy $27 I'll get $30 = 20 rides."
After using 19 rides there's $1.20 left.
So how is this any different than what I reported?
AlM referred to my post. You corrected him. I corrected your correction.
Here is the link again
It's row 37: $11.75
You're right, I didn't. I missed the part where you said that it was actually possible to buy metrocards in $.05 increments. I thought the whole thing was purely theoretical, and then by the time I saw David's post I had forgotten about the spreadsheet. My mistake.
Not such an easy thing to do. They are fine when it comes to withdrawing money but when it comes to actually trusting a machine other than an ATM they are very, very hesitant.
In addtion to allwoing easy withdrawls, it could provide an additonal sales medium when MVM's are crowded or out of money.
Curretly the axis atm network sells metrocards
People withdrawing money from the ATM = The MTA make's money. It does not hurt the average rider becasue most people would be paying the fees to withdraw from thier local bank. Instead of the banks keeping all the profit the MTA and it's riders get a cut
It creates an new revenue stream to help pay for transit operations
Allowing the Tooken booth to make change - COSTS TONS OF MONEY
Make money vs cost riders and taxpayers money
You make the call
The way I would word the contract is that the ATM operator is responciple for maintianing, installing and purchacing all machines. The MTA would get a 30% rolyaltiy on all transactions. With an average ATM transaction fee of $1.50 that adds up quick
I believe that LIRR ticket vending machines, and SEPTA Regional Rail ticket machines are serviced by private contractors.
If someone knows differently, post it here.
The MTA is just an ATM in reverse.
An ATM gives you money, the MTA takes it.
And Subfans are helpless addicts who keep going back for more...
Val calls to us. He hungers. We must feed him. It is the word of Val.
:0)
God, Allan, I didn't realize that MTA was ATM backwards until you had it up there. Yikes, that's hilarious.
Why should the MTA get that much? Screw 'em, give them the 3% to 5% that the give merchants to sell cards. they deserve no more.
Peace,
ANDEE
Plus the cards are given to the stores in some cases on 10 net 30 terms.
Many local stores make virtually nothing off milk and bread. They good milk and brad prices to draw sustomers into thier stores.
In the case of ATM's commissions, the ATM operator is making huge profit amrgins on each transaction and the MTA is suppling the customers
METROCARD MERCHENTS = MTA drawing traffic into your store
ATM +> MTA suppying the customer
That is the reason for the high royalty rate. A company such as AXIS ATM network would increase it's earnings by 1000 percent if it would be able to swing a franchise contract with the MTA
(Incidentally, only the main booth at Grand Central has the perpetual lines. If you need a booth, that station has at least four others. And the handful of MVM's scattered around GCT proper never seem to have lines.)
Peace,
ANDEE
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's how I break my $20s.
Imagine now that your cafeteria refused to accept $20 bills anymore, then you would know how so many of us feel.
It is interesting to me that your cafeteria is able to figure out how to make change for a $20 bill but a big outfit like the TA still hasn't figured out how to do it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Interesting. I use a credit card for the supermarket, post office, most stores, restaurants and even transit (used it to buy SEPTA tickets and tokens). I use cash, but very little of it. My credit card gives me a statement with all the transactions logged and 30 days interest-free use of the bank's money. I pay my credit card balances completely at the end of the month.
I use my amex blue to get 5% back on all supermarket purcahces
sunoco card gets me 4% on all my gas purcahces
My etrade card gives me 2% on everything else
I use cash very rarely
I am even crazy enough to buy packs of gum at rite aid with my credit card.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
However, Anonymouse's strategy is a valid one, and it works well for him. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
when the issue come down to costing me in my pocket that is where I have a problem
Keeping s/a to sell fares costs me in my pocket. If the MTA would close all booths tommorrow. Within a month or two the public would completly adjust.
They would buy thier cards at MVM's
They would buy thier cards at thier local newstand who could sell so many cards that a newstand would open up near every subway entrance if there is not one there already.
You could even give rent newstands the Metrocard encoding machines to sell cards at any ammount or type just as they sell lotto tickets.
You get my point.
When does the job protectism end(which cost private sector jobs) and the needs of the riders take precedent
If people followed that mantra, you would be living in a cave carrying a wooden club and eating recently-killed wooly mammoth for dinner.
Easily. No matter how good your immediate record-keeping system (saving receipts, etc.) you don't always remember how much you have spent, and it's all too easy to end up with a higher balance than you can afford to pay off at the end of the month.
Plus usig your credit card allows you to download all your
transactions into quicken to prepare your next years budget and finacial plan
That depends on your credit card... not all of them have that capability. That also assumes you use some form of computerized budgeting system, which I don't.
As I mentioned, I pay cash (or debit or check) for almost everything. I have exactly one installment debt: my mortgage. I haven't had a car payment in nearly twenty years (although I am making my younger daughter's car payments until she passes the bar and gets a job... she graduates from law school on the 18th). It works.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What ever works for you. My dad handles his fiances in much the same way.
I am the opposite. If I have cash in my pocket I am more likely to buy a bottle of snapple or a slice of pizza. If the lowest bill in my pocket is a $20, I am more likely not to purchce an implulse item.
Although if you are in Rite Aid it does you could buy the snapple with your CC.
I like being able to keep track of all that I spend. Plus I like the cash back.
I calcualated that I have recieved about $20000 in cash rewards in the past 5 years
I also charge my cell phone, direct tv, ez-pass, car insurance, my college tuition and books, my home phone, most groceries, metrocard, gas, all large purcahces such as computer, tv, airfare and hotel from busiess travel etc
Livig in a two fare zone most people I know keep a secound metrocard in thier wallet with one or two fares just in case they forget to refill thier main card. That is why it find all these people who complain aout Tooken booth closing and MVM's out of money so funny.
People act if it like life or death if they can not buy a fare at thier local subway entrance.
The best way to never be stuck is to plan ahead and be prepared. Most successful people are prepared.
Do you buy a new MetroCard every day? If you put the entire $20 on the MetroCard all at once, you wouldn't have to worry about getting change, you'd save time in line, and you'd get two more rides tossed in at no extra charge.
OTOH, it's hardly realistic for a cafeteria diner to buy two weeks' worth of food all at once.
Riders will learn where to buy fares outside the transit system, learn to plan ahead and have money on thier cards at all times
Just as bus riders need to make sure they have exact fare in change or money on thier metrocard, subway riders will adjust also.
It would be a smart move for the MTA to post in each station the location of the closst off site 3rd party metrocard retailers. Over time they could even charge these reatialers for the advertisements.
Oftdn there is a metrocard retailer right near subway entrances. In addition, metrocard sales makes some of the MTA's real estate directly adjacent to subway entrances more atttractive to newstands and other retailer giving them a nice new stream of revenue from metrocard sales.
Free market forces will move in to fill the void. Give it time. I bet many people still don't know that they can buy metrocards at thier local store, axis ATM terminals all over the city etc.
Going foward, what percent of riders buy single ride cards and $7 fun passes one at a time. less then 1% of all metrocard sales(on a total volume basis as apposed to a per transaction basis)
It would have been nice for the MTA to think ahead and stock the MVM's with $10 bills to help riders, but that may have cost more then it waa worth. The MTA needs to look into increasing the storage capasity for change and bill inserted to reduce MVM maintance rewuirements
Just as bus riders need to make sure they have exact fare in change or money on thier metrocard, subway riders will adjust also.
It would be a smart move for the MTA to post in each station the location of the closst off site 3rd party metrocard retailers. Over time they could even charge these retailers for the advertisements. "
And reduce the need for Station Agents so the MTA can close the booths.
Come on VOR - fess up. That is what you were hinting at.
Now if we could all just become metrocard vendors...
(I was going to say - "they will tell you where to go" - but that might be taken the wrong way).
I will call today and post how I made out.
http://www.mta.info/metrocard/merchant_index.htm
Elias
They are working on it.
They're STILL around? Lasted about a week up here. I liked and miss them.
Peace,
ANDEE
You're right though, they are good as hell! And they don't have shitty processed chicken either, like McD's and Burger King. All real chicken.
Peace,
ANDEE
Selling single rides at the booth NO
The goal is to eliminate the booths. Why would you want to encourage behavior that would no encourage people to use the MVM's
Mark my words. You will see more Metrocard retailers set up shop and prominantly advertise the fact that they sell metrocards directly infront of subway entrances. Especially entrances that have no booths. Free market capitolistic forces will further eliminate the problem.
A would ventrure to guess the same complaints happened when bus drivers stoped handling money and exact fare was required on buses. People adjusted.
Why should the average rider have to pay for those who do not plan ahead and make sure they have sufficient fare when entering the subway system.
PAth Riders and DC METRO riders survive and prosper.
Give it time. The newspapers are looking for a story to create outrage. The MTA needs to do a better job of premoting it's outside retial network. Station announcements over the public adress premoting outside retailers would help in addtion to the current subway car ad bus ads.
This will also help local newstands and shop owners
Even in New Jersey!
I hate cash, especially change.
-Stef
GR&D...
-Stef
See my earlier post.
-Stef
-Stef
I think i would prefer the busy booth if i were a S/A. The time would move faster. It is not like S/A can pull out a book and read if their are no customers
Why not? I ride the system daily, at 0330, and have seen plenty of S/As reading a book.
Peace,
ANDEE
so much for providing security
I'm Sure it is agains regualtion. If the S/A is reading a book he she is not being the "eyes and ears" the TWu proclaims them to be
And if the S/A is serving five customers a minute? I'd think the book-reading S/A would be more likely to notice something amiss.
The Techers union is doing the same thing filing a disgracefull lawsuit charging the city of racial discrimination in thier decision to lay off 200 techers aids instead of techers. They charge that most teachrs are white and most aids are black and hispanic.
Straphangers camapign, the TWu and other maniciple unions play dirty politics of public oppinion with little regards to the facts of the matter. They dilibertly mislead the public with frivilious lawsuits and press conferences that use lots of inuendos and catch one liners
In the end they hurt thier members as well as the public
Peace,
ANDEE
How about putting a good part of the blame where it belongs - the NY area banks. They are the ones who decided to have their ATMs dispense only $20 bills instead of $10s and $5s.
-Stef
There are plenty of other banks in NYC.
It's not just in the New York area, but pretty much nationwide.
The machine, which was popular with users, was ultimately replaced by one offering $20 bills only.
"Yeah I'd like 3 White Castles and a side order of fries."
"That will be $3, wait, after tax, $20."
Suggest that to Bloomberg and you'll make him a happy man.
Why don't they post a sign and advertise that they don't accept $10 and $20 bills?
If they are so eager to shut out us "low rollers"
Why don't they do away with cash all together so that only people with credit cards are alowed to ride the subway?
That would make the trains real classy.
Next we are going to see our morning pan handlers only accepting paper money!
2) Booths *do* accept $10 and $20 bills for purchases, what they are unable to do is to *give change* in amouts of more than say $6.00
The sign should read:
NOTICE
Station Booths do not return
more than $6.00 in change
regardless of purchase.
The TA would like to discourage passengers who are too seemly to have a credit card or to invest in an abundance of rides all at once.
Next they should require a credit check for all subway riders!
We only want people with good credit on our subway.
Despite what the article wants you to believe, this seems like an unforssen shortage of small bills, not official TA policy to stop making change. S/As need to be given more small bills at the start of the day to account for fewer coming from customers, and the problem is fixed.
In the mall, (the station is situtated in the center of an outdoor mall) there is a newsstand, but since the store opens late (6 AM by current standards), he might have no singles or change to give out to "victims" of the MTA curse.
Fire all Metrocard Clerks
Fire all fare control colletion and security
Raise the tolls On all Crossings
Raise the cost of parking meters
Raise the cost of traffic violations
Apply all above salaries and revenu towards eliminating fare control all togehter
In fact, they could take this one step further and have the TA issue a $2 "coin". They could call it a token!!!
Phila. Inquirer Story here
or point to: http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/states/pennsylvania/cities_neighborhoods/philadelphia/5810025.htm
--Mark
This is a study regarding extension of SEPTA's R2 line to Elkton, MD and Perrysville.
Or point browswers to: http://www.wilmapco.org/studies/Track%20A%20Feasability/index.htm
I don't know if this issue has already been posted on Subtalk.
We already know what is being proposed so I won't start typing it again.
Peace,
ANDEE
I won't attend because I think they have it basically right. Just more proof that public hearings are worthless, because only complaines show up.
Public hearings are worthwhile no matter who shows up. The amount of value is dependent on how prepared and educated you are as to the attendees. If the meeting is "worthless" to you, it's your fault, not MTA's.
Service Alert
Insert Text Here
OMG WHAT A SERVICE DELAY! IT'S GIGANTIC, AMAZING, SHOCKING, lol,
Nah, I've seen it severalmany times.
All you need to do is look at a service alert page which gets emptied out when an "event" is over. Sometimes they leave the link up on the main page a little bit too long.
Take yer own screen shot.
Mark
Heh, why don't you?
Link here
If the MTA was irresponcible and used the $600 million savings in last years refinacing to pay for operatins rather then to pay down higher interest debt, this bond sale at this rate would not have been possible
Douglas Sussman, Deputy Director
MTA Govt. and Community Relations
347 Madison Av
NY NY 10017
Details on hearings here
Peace,
ANDEE
I wish his family strength in this tragedy.
Bryan
The truck driver (and his family) has already paid for his stupidity.
It's been reported that the truck was carrying lumber. Maybe a piece came through the locomotive's windshield and struck the engineer.
I'm surprised to hear that locomotives don't have seat belts. Trains don't hit logging and cement trucks every year, but it does happen often enough that a seat belt seems worthwhile. Also for a derailment.
16 logs, 2' in diameter and 40' long, stacked on a trailer, weigh about 50 tons.
http://www.ble.org/pr/news/newsflash.asp?id=3730
#1 4805-04/4643-42/4931-31/4813-12.
#2 4818-19/4774-75/4717-16/4778-79.
#3 4873-72/4744-45/4829-28/4733/32.
#4 4622-23/4677-76/4862-63/4593-92.
David
Peace
David
Peace
David
Robert
http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612337319
hope you enjoyed humor only we can sppreciate
:)
Chuck Greene
Make your own
Watch it again
See the top 50! <--------
---Choo Choo
It's much better now! :)
I put together some of my favorite webcams on a site at: http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/webcam.html. I have to admit I have been remiss in updating the site so some of the links might be bad.
Am I the only one who is experiencing problems with the Queensboro Plaza view? All I get is a blue screen.
--Mark
Trainset #8: 7166-7170 & 7171-7175.
Trainset #9: 1101-1105 & 1111-1115.
There are now 90 R-142s on the 4.
Coming attractions are 6876-6885 for the 5 (as Stef witnessed), and Trainset #10 may be 1141-1145 & 1151-1155.
25 R-62s are now at Livonia.
Is anyone watching the 3 line?
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Those known so far are:
1361-1362-1363-1364-1365.
1401-1402-1403-1404-1405.
1426-1427-1428-1429-1430.
1441-1442-1443-1444-1445.
1506-1507-1508-1509-1510.
None have resurfaced as yet. Am waiting with baited breath for their presence, somewhere.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Robert
There are at least two, perhaps three #5's laid up at Livonia middays and overnights, along with two or so #4's. They march in and out on a regular schedule Mon-Fri. They also stay in the storage yard, and most definitely do not undergo inspection unless something is very wrong.
In fact, I just happened to get my last daylight shot of a Redbird this way, and quite by accident. It was a warm Wednesday afternoon in January (about 40°), and I was looking for ex-Pelham R-62As on the 3. Right time: 15:38. Right place: Sutter Ave.-SB side. Here came 9172 into purrrrrfect sunlight, perfectly signed "5" "Dyre Avenue." . Ahhhh.....
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
The 4s I never noticed, in fact working at New Lots Yard, I don't remember doing any PM rush put-ins on the 4. I don't think they have any midday layups at NLY but I could be wrong. Its been a while. But the gap sheets at Utica have NO "4 NLTS WDL".
As for specific intervals, I don't know.
I did notice one car with a yellow sticker (I didn't catch the number) had a 'T' marking on the sticker. Transfer?
Red "T" = Transverse Cab (also very old). Many had big red strips above the cab windows. A few still do.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Booyah! That explains it. Thanks.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Peace
David
Daily News
Park Slope Courier (from the Transportation Alternatives site)
They did the same thing back in the late 1980's, early 1990's. That is when the MetroTech buildings were built.
Yeah it did stop my company from moving to NJ but only until last year. We still have the 2 buildings in MetroTech though.
I like to dream.
The FBI's weekly intelligence bulletin to law enforcement agencies throughout the country warns that stolen railraod equipment poses a security concern.
Several devices used to derail railcars and other equipment have been stolen from railyards in East Texas in the past year. Any information on the stolen equipment should be reported to the nearest Joint Terrorism Task Force immediately, the FBI says.
``Theft of this equipment is unusual, as derails have little value outside the rail industry,'' the FBI states. ``Although there is no indication that these thefts are terrorist-related, terrorists have targeted railroads in the past.''
The FBI reminds law enforcement agencies that the al-Qaeda network ``has identified attacks on railroads as a means to disrupt the U.S. economy.''
``Given the potential misuse of derails, theft of this equipment poses potential security concerns,'' the FBI says.
Of the nine stolen ``derails,'' seven were taken from railyards in the Greenville and Sulpher Springs, Texas area. The other two were stolen from areas near Lake Ray Hubbard and Winnsboro, Texas, the FBI says.
The nine stolen derails are the portable hinged-type that would be spiked to the cross-ties of a rail track, the FBI states. Each derail measures about one and one-half feet in length and weighs about 35 pounds, according to the bulletin.
The FBI describes an incident in October 1995 when a 12-car Amtrak passenger train was deliberately derailed near Hyder, Arizona, killing one person and injuring 100 others.
``This suspected act of domestic terrorism remains under investigation,'' the FBI says.
The FBI's weekly bulletin is intended to disseminate relevant terrorism information to state and local law enforcement agencies.
A derail is either spiked down to the cross-ties of a railroad track or bolted to the rail itself. It prevents railcars on a secondary track from accidentally rolling onto a main rail line by directing the wheel off the track, derailing the moving car, the FBI says.
Now, it's whoever who stole them who is obviously unaware of the diversity of objects that can be used to derail a train.
Thanks a lot...
In a few key specialties, consultants are being hired on short term contracts in lieu of hiring, and dependent on the money available.
Wrong time to be looking for a job at the MTA. Perhaps if all those those "new starts" projects get funded, and one has experience inspecting and managing contractors, we'll need people again.
A-G, J, L-N, Q-S, V-W: in use today
H, K, T: formerly used
I, O: never used; too similar to numbers 1 and 0
U: never used; too similar to letter V
(Actually, I've never heard anyone say that 'U' was too similar to 'V', but I'm assuming it would never be used for that reason. Furthermore, to a non-native speaker, "U train" would probably sound too much like "your train," making 'V' the preferable letter to have used.)
That leaves P as the only letter from A through W that, AFAIK, has never been used, and there's no apparent reason why. Anyone know?
The P line will be the biggest running joke around NYC because it means something else.
...The TA will eventually build enough lines and provide enough service that they will run out of letters, and be forced to use double letters...
Yeah, that'll happen. And you'll also win every state's lottery, on your 125th birthday, and be simotaneously struck by lightning and a meteor and be given super powers.
Seriously, though, running out of letters would be a logical rationale for using double letters. The C could become the AA, B the DD, V the FF, Z the JJ, W the RR, N the QQ, etc...
Use Greek letters. Fraternities are identified by them. If some lines used Greek, then the city can start a whole new alphabet.
Other symbols could be used. For the 7 express, a home plate could be used. Maybe for the Brighton Line, a Russian letter, since Brighton Beach is Russian. It is a wacky idea but original.
And what about Hebrew, Arabic, Sanskrit characters...? You'd have to know what they're called first. As for Greek, not everybody knows the names of the letters (although you have trains already running that look like Alpha, Beta, Epsilon, Zeta, Mu, and Nu not to mention certain ones also looking like the Russian A, V, Ye, M, S and mirror-image of Ya)...
I would say that either doubled letters would return, or perhaps the IRT number system would overflow into the BMT/IND and you'd have the 10 train, 11, 12, etc. However, I suspect that we'll never have that many subway trains operating in NYC as to resort to that.
Probably just switching to all numbers or the overflow method would be preferred.
Still talking about that involving N_Slant_40? Heh, I still remember 'Brighton Basbushka!' :-D
If they went to triple letters, "K" would be a no-go.
Or maybe not. When I first went onto Subtalk some years ago, and read that there used to be a "KK" train, that was my first thought.
Anyway, all of this moot now.
But what if the (P) was diverted down the (PJ)...
Try explaining that GO!
: )
Go upstair and take a P.
She ask me how to get 34th Street
And I tell her to go upstair and take a P
*@#!@ on the face!
What happened here
OH Man, That guy just threw a blow at me for telling his wife to go upstair and take a P
I can just see it now:
Q: How do I get to Times Square?
A: You go down those stairs and take a P on the uptown platform.
How many can really say that and keep a straight face?
Hey, when you gotta go, you gotta go.
But... remember. NAMCO had to change the popular arcade video game, "Puckman" to "Pacman" for "a certain reason". :-)
Remember this is NYC we are talking about and NYers catch on to something like that real fast and usually won't let go.
Which is a perception issue, nothing more. My point was that P is perfectly okay to use regardless of how New Yorkes feel about it.
Tourist: How do I get to such-and-such?
Subway guru: Take a PP against the wall.
SMACK!!!!
: ) Elias
Hey everyone, the Shitty train ends at 86th st until 2005.
--Mark
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
--Mark
There is no "zero" train (not literally, anyway. Figuratively speaking is a different story). There is no good reason to ever have a "zero" train. Although I feel it doesn't look right, I have (reluctantly) used it in my fantasy map-as designation for the SIR.
"...U train" would probably sound too much like "your train..."
(A): a (one) train
(C): see train
(D)(V)(Z): the train
(G): gee train
(N): an train
(Q): cue train/cute train
(R): our train/are train
(S): is train
No. I'm not gonna say it. It's just WRONG... :)
I don't think there is a problem with U. The reason that it was chosen over U for the new 6th Avenue service is easily demonstrated by showing what I sign on a 6th Avenue local station would look like if it wasn't the V:
23 StreetStation
Or thinking of P and U as Union Pacific, mostly described as "UP". The Second Avenue subway's slogan can be a rip-off of UP's "We Deliver" slogan.
Picture the MTA's ad campaign for the 2nd Ave Subway:
A photo of Chambers Street Station, and below it the phrase:
"We Deliver P-U"
I say that would fit Chambers Street well.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
You guys are twisted!
: )
LIRR Diesel Trains were going to terminate at Long Island City, and the Richmond Hill Station was to be an important transfer. LIRR diesel branch users were encouraged to stay on the train at Jamaica (because Jamaica Station was supposed to be chaos) and use the 121st Street J station connection with the LIRR RIchmond Hill station. They were also able to use the Vernon-Jackson connection to the 7 at Long Island City station. The electric branch users I believe were asked to go to Woodside for the 7 (which was also discouraged) or also catch this diesel train to Richmond Hill to catch the "P" train at 121st Street, which is the train they were really pushing as the E and the 7 were thought to have beyond capacity crowds.
Well the strike never happened, the P train never rolled, and Richmond Hill never got it's "15 minutes of fame" as going from one of the least used LIRR stations of the time to one of the busiest. I was all set to get over to 121st Street that morning to ride the "P" express, but of course the strike never happened.
If so, what color?
www.forgotten-ny.com
If so, what color?
Depends...
On Broadway it would have to be yellow.
A yellow circle (P)
On the Queens Crosstown it might be a green (P).
: )
"I" and "O" were avoided for the reasons you already mentioned. There wasn't any objection of any kind mentioned to "U" but at the time the highest letter was "T".
That train is supposed to serve New Utrect, of course!
: )
Conrail Shared Assets still operates in New Jersey.
As of June 1, 1999, Conrail's owners CSX Transportation and Norfolk Southern absorbed most of Conrail's former operations. Although Conrail no longer handles most commercial matters for customers, we play a critical role in serving shippers and receivers as agent for our owners,CSX and NS.In addition, CSX and Norfolk Southern operate trains over Conrail tracks to reach major yards, terminals and distribution facilities located in Detroit, New Jersey and Philadelphia.
Detroit operations
Conrail operations over nearly 90 miles of rail lines in the Detroit area are focused in the corridor connecting Trenton, Detroit and Sterling Heights/Utica. Major yards served by Conrail include Livernois, North, River Rouge and Sterling yards.
.
Northern New Jersey operations
Conrail operations on nearly 200 miles of rail lines in the northern half of New Jersey are concentrated in Essex, Hudson, Middlesex, Monmouth Ocean. and Union counties.
The hub of Conrail activities in the region is Oak Island Yard in Newark, with smaller local serving yards located in Bayonne, Greenville (Jersey City), Linden, Manville, Metuchen, Newark, Old Bridge, Port Reading (Woodbridge), and Red Bank. Conrail also operates new automobile distribution facilities in Northern New Jersey on behalf of its owners. In addition to providing local service for customers along the shared assets lines, Conrail operates provides local freight service along Amtrak's Northeast Corridor between Newark and Trenton.
Philadelphia/Southern New Jersey operations
Conrail operates about 250 miles of rail lines in the Philadelphia-South Jersey area.
In Southern New Jersey, Conrail provides local freight service on virtually all rail lines south of Trenton, and provides connections with the short lines serving the remainder of the region.
In Pennsylvania, Conrail lines serve many customers located in Philadelphia, and along or near the Delaware River in Chester and Lower Bucks counties. Conrail also provides local service for customers located along Amtrak's Northesat Corridor between Philadelphia and Trenton.
The hub of Conrail operations in the region is Pavonia Yard in Camden, New Jersey. In addition, in Pennsylvania local serving yards are located in Chester, Morrisville, and the Midvale, Port Richmond, and South Philadelphia areas of Philadelphia. In New Jersey, local serving yards are located at Burlington City, Mount Holly, Paulsboro and Woodbury.
Conrail's company headquarters are located at 2 Commerce Square, Philadelphia.
i'm the reporter who does the subway column in the new york times. i was interested in doing a funny column about the ugliest station in the system. the other day i came across the thread where a few subtalkers were debating the ugliest and there seemed to be a lot of votes for the bmt chambers street station. i'm going to spend most of the day at that station tomorrow and also wanted to see if i could talk to anyone who has opinions about chambers or other eyesore stations
if you're interested, please e-mail me a phone # where i can reach you tomorrow.
thanks so much. i think it'll make a good column..
randy kennedy
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
A few hours later, I happened to be walking across the University Heights Bridge, and I saw an R-74 coupled to two Redbirds in the yard. I couldn't make out the numbers but they were probably the same cars.
-Stef
That's good news. It can't be much longer before R-33's have to fill in for ailing R-142's.
i forgot to add: the best e-mail for me is transit@nytimes.com
randy kennedy
If anything, I found your latest article to be very amusing. $80....heh.
Anyway, by far, the ugliest station is the IRT (7) platform at Grand Central. It's so crappy!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
And it is only about 14 years or so of dirt. That station was revamped, refurbished re - whatever back in the late 1980's/early 1990's after the Newport Mall opened in 1987.
---Choo Choo
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/fortworth/
Phil Hom
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
They've got a couple more out there.
It would appear that "they" are Radio Shack, a subsidiary of Tandy. The cars are theirs, they're free to do with them as they please.
If only we had a place to store railcars...
Mark
oh, and the transport from Texas (around $4000)
These cars were still using air-electric PCC equipment and I believe that some were still using belt-driven compressors (PC-2's?), possibly making them the last revenue service cars in North America to employ that type. Most other systems, like Boston, converted to Gardner-Denvers or some other electric-drive compressor on their air cars. I could be wrong, though... can anyone confirm this?
Frank Hicks
--Mark
And expense -- ie. the cost of cleaning the car.
The deal is you let a franchise or concession to run (and clean) the cars, and just take a skim of the profits.
You wouldn't want the line to shut down just because the food service union went on strike, and the other crafts honoured the picket lion!
Elias
Bar cars have matured into bar carts on a few afternoon peak trains. Public Affairs might be able to tell you which trains have 'em. 718-558-8228.
Mark
And those used to get off at Jamaica, and return to NYO for the next train.
Dumb
Not cars, but carts. They serve "refreshments."
Mark
Yeah, they're not common. There's usually a bar cart on the 7:39pm out of Penn Station.
Mark
Funny. That train connects with the bar cart train I posted.
Mark
Peace,
ANDEE
That's what the MTA would like you to believe, but it's largely an illusion.
Mark
You are right, it is a double standard. Those who ride out on the LIRR generally control the means of production and the capital in this state. If some transit agency told them that they couldn't drink after a day of million dollar trades they would call up their bought rep in Albany and bitch. Most people who ride the subway are poor S.C.U.M that can't handle their liquor (ie that riot and then loot the property of "the man" instead of just going home and beating their spouces or driving drunk). The other people who ride the Subway are only making a short hop from Wall St to Park Ave and wouldn't really have time to sit and throw one back anyhow.
Satire aside, the subway is a far denser system and the city is full of poor and alcoholics who are disruptive when drunk and nothing better to do than get drunk. While LIRR riders are trying to get home, the Subway can be a destination in and of itself. The system would become a giant 486 mile long bar full of pissing, vometing, harrassing drunks who are not meerly passing through, but there to stay.
Well, the bar car is a licensed liquor establishment. Amtrak's restaurant car serves wine and beer with meals; presumably on MTA trains ou are served liquor in the same legal setting that you would be served liquor, say, in the Houlihans at Penn Station.
You can be served liquor on an airline flight.
In all these cases, a server who is legally allowed to serve you is also responsible for observing the law about liquor service, just as he/she would be in a bar.
The subway is not a liquor serving establishment.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'll stick to Amtrak thank ya, though the "Cafe car" leaves quite a bit to be desired. One of the FINEST meals I ever had was on a train from Providence, RI to NYC - Weinerschnitzel done RIGHT. Of course, this was back in the 1960's when amenities were EXPECTED.
I'm wondering if I'm in the wrong business. Maybe I should get together with Peter Rosa, open up a "beer hat" concession for subway riders, and Peter can sell the "beer pants" plus cabana rental to put them on ... like any TRUE New York ontapanoors, we can service the "customers" coming and going. :)
Cool idea, but alas it won't work. You see the NYPD's already cornered the market on adult diapers and driven the cost through the roof. Sorry.
DAMMIT, I *almost* raised enough cash to have Shrub come to *OUR* factory for a photo-op. DAMMIT! That's the LAST time I'll respond to *YOU*!!! Frrrrp! :)
DAMMIT! Be a *MAN*!!! Get out there and SELL those damned BEER PANTS! Call them "code orange" if you must to LIVE with yourself, but fer krissakes, SELL them damned beer pants ... de economy *DEPENDS* on you! Heh.
Peace,
ANDEE
CG
Don't get me started. With all the pigs there are that ride the LIRR, I hope the day never comes. Some of the trains are full of empty plastic bottles, coffee spilt all over the floors, food wrappers in the seats and newspapers strewn all about. The Clean Train campaign eh.
Hey folks. Wait till you get home to eat or eat before you ride. How anyone can eat chciken or pizza in the subway or on the LIRR escapes me.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Except that American Pig is a human...
LOL..
He is? That's disappointing. I was going to hire him to root out some truffles for me.
Because Bostonians can't pronounce anything ;^)
I worry that Light Rail planners will look at Electric LRTs as 'too expensive,' and possibly hold SNJLRTs 34 mile for 1 billion dollar pricetag as a justification for skipping electrification and just end up buying initially cheaper diesel cars. Pretty soon we'll just have diesel LRTs, because you can get 'more bang for the buck' no matter what the long term costs might be, with all the smell, noise and assorted costs (fuel, maitenance and such) that a diesel brings along with it. Eventually I would not be surprized if exsisting LRT systems with electric power have their wires removed so that DLRVs could be used. Of course that would be followed, perhaps a generation later by a need to either electrify or re-electrify the lines once we realize that the Diesels are noisier, smellier and more expensive than the electrics in the long run.
Course on the other hand, DLRVs could enable smaller communities or more dispersed areas to recieve service much like the larger cities, all without the initial startup costs of electric lines. This could enable more people to benefit from the initial expenditure.
Anybody have any thoughts on this?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I'm not saying that it's doom for something like the NYCTA, but right now (well for the past 2 decades or so) we're seeing an amazing boom in LRT building, and I've become afraid that with the minimalist attitude in this country we'll just automatically chose the easiest solution that gets the people their rails. All it would take would be SNJLRTS being moderately successful, not neccessarily at the farebox, just revitalizing some of the towns along it's line would get it enough attention, and other communities could automatically decide that DLRV was the way to go and they'd eschew their LRT plans for DLRVs.
I'm just wondering if anyone out there shares my somewhat gloomy feelings about the DLRVs, or if some people are truely excited about the introduction of such a flexible vehicle to American Transit.
I'm more worried that the current boom in Electric Light rail will be passed over for Diesel powered equipment because township transit planning commissions will decide that their lower initial cost is more important than their possibly higher maitenance. It could very well be like a neo-NCL kind of thing, tearing down the wires for Diesel LRTs.
Correct, but they're not always turned on.
Merrick Avenue. That must have been it because I believe I passed there at just about 7:48 AM yesterday morning. I don't go that way every day or always at that time, but yesterday I happened to be there. My office is in Plainview so, when I'm not visiting clients, I often take Sunrise to 135 to avoid the traffic on the parkway.
The M-1's were delivered with a destination sign above the T/O front window, as well as small side signs.
The systems were removed shortly after the cars went into service as they did not work -- they were supposed to change automatically, the entire train's signs -- by selecting a reading in the T/O cab. Not sure, but I think the entire sign unit was removed from the cabs; on the car sides on many of the cars, a blank piece of stainless steel was fitted into the opening where the signs were.
WMATA had this sort of system in its early years, and they, too, had many problems with the automated roll signs. The 1000 series cars were delivered with them; the 2000 series cars came with flip-dot electronic signs which were more reliable.
Metrolink out here in southern California has the flip-dot signs in their first order of cars (cab cars 601-631 and trailers 101-163). They are hardly readble through the tinted window glass. The newer cars (cabs 632-637 and trailers 164-209) have LCD -- yellow-on-black -- and those, too are not readble very well through the tinted glass. You can only read the signs when it's dark outside.
The systems were removed shortly after the cars went into service as they did not work
Here's M-1 numero uno, making your point abundantly clear. At least it's still sporting that spiffy blue.
Mark
CG
CG
LOL (I CAN'T possibly be right...)
www.forgotten-ny.com
It definitely can be a problem at 125th or Fordham on MNRR. Different trains come in within minutes of each other going to different destinations. Every now and then, someone doesn't understand English well enough or doesn't pay attention enough, and ends up in the wrong place.
Of course, roll signs wouldn't help that much. If you're going to Mt. Vernon East, and the train says Stamford, that doesn't mean the train necessarily stops where you're going.
Some of the later series of New Haven division cars did have front roll signs. Again, they have basically gone out of service.
Electronic signs a la the R142/143 are the way to go.
Good in non-rush times when designations like "Stamford Local" are well defined. Still doesn't help much in rush hour when there are dozens of possible itineraries, unless there's room to say things like "Stamford express, 1st stop Greenwich".
And even then people who don't know the line won't have a clue.
Or do the rail systems schedule some trains on line X that stop at A and bypass B and other trains on line X that bypass A and stop at B? In that case, my algorithm fails.
Noroton Heights, etc. all the way to New Haven;
South Norwalk, then Bridgeport, then all stops to New Haven;
Bridgeport, then all stops to New Haven;
South Norwalk, then all stops to Bridgeport.
Quite confusing. Posting the next stop would be very useful, however.
Your algorithm usually works for regular riders. And in fact, conductors do generally shout out things like "this is a Harrison train, 1st stop New Rochelle".
For casual riders it is a tricky problem.
It probably isn't all that easy. On the LIRR, half the weekend trains that stop at Lynbrook are Long Beach trains and half are Babylon trains. Half the Babylon trains skip Lynbrook. Babylon diesel trains can go either via Mineola/ Hicksville (Main Line) or via Freeport (Babylon branch). Some Babylon trains skip Kew Gardens and Forest Hills but stop at Woodside and St. Albans; others do the opposite. Rush hour trains do all kinds of strange things in order to put the capacity where it is needed most. A few select rush hour trains even skip Jamaica.
see how confusing it gets just to say it destination
That assumes that the trains are operating according to the set schedule and arrive at exactly the designated times. It can get confusing during rush hour if the trains are early or late or cancelled and the platform announcements are garbled for whatever reason. On the LIRR, sometimes Flatbush trains arrive within minutes of Penn trains. Roll signs would be helpful.
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
R32 C Train - #3417
R44 A Train - #5325
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
I hope the former. The commuter railroads are not parts of NYCT. (They are, however, agencies of the MTA, as is NYCT.)
BTW: that was a NO JAMAICA stop. Also, the signs EVERYWHERE said so. About 50 people in my car got on the wrong train, too.
So why run two different subsidized public services in competition? If bus riders rose the subway, it would make even more money, since most bus trips are inter-borough where capacity is available. And reducing parallel bus service would free up more buses for crosstown and feeder routes.
Add to the fact that it runs very slowly due to traffic and infrequently, it's not worth waiting for except during weekend GOs on 4th avenue.
But you have to carefully define "parallel".
Agreed. People taking the B63 are not going to the same destinations as people riding the R train. For that matter, you could consider the B63 a "super-local" transit line, with the R playing the "express-local" part. And don't forget the value of a linear surface route connecting with all cross street bus transfers. Add all those riders onto the subway and you're talking major crush loads, easy. Sure, it's good to elimate unecessary routes....but in Brooklyn and New York there is a level of utilization that demands both services run. Same reason we have heavy duty four and six track subway R.O.W.s. The primary New York gestalt is "Keep Movin'".
The load carried by any individual bus line is so small you could put it on a subway and no one would ever notice. Few routes if any have more than 30 buses per hour. That's 1 train per hour of load.
Also, the bus riders would be taking the local subways instead, not the expresses, and no locals subways are maxed out yet.
Nevertheless, I don't think it's a good idea. The bus lines paralleling the subways generally get good usage and aren't the big financial drains.
Oh? In the afternoon, the 6 and 1/9 are more crowded than the 4/5 and 2/3. See the stats I recently posted. (Peak crowding on the 1/9 is between 6 and 7, not between 5 and 6.)
Or are you saying that more service can be added to those lines?
That is certainly true in Manhattan, less true elsewhere. Remember, buses are used for intra-borough trips, so those using subways instead of buses would be getting off as others got on, and adding nothing to the peak load into the tunnels. And, aside from the IRT and the QB, subway lines could add service is cars were available. They could provide cheaper service than buses.
Note the subject line, "beggars can't be choosers." No doubt reducing paralell bus service would be a service cut, as the example of the B63 indicates. People would have to walk extra blocks on both ends of the trip, because 5th Avenue is a block away from 4th, and the R train stops at fewer stations. So eliminating service on paralell bus routes is bad.
But the question is, what bad things are worse. This year we raised the fare and raised taxes, but we also pushed pension and debt costs into the future. Another crunch will come next year, and we aren't going to have higher fares and taxes for a second year (that's year three).
So admitting that it's bad, it's time to talk about which bad things are less bad. One option is to close the subways overnight when traffic is lighter, and run buses instead, but some have said that the trains are now crowded enough off hours that substituting buses wouldn't save. Another option is this one.
A third option is deferred maintenance, or drastic cuts in subway service. The subway nearly covers its operating costs. Let's not go there, again.
1 tph? yes, absolutely. But as I said I don't think there's any point in cutting those bus lines; they're not the big money losers.
This is a subject near and dear to my heart. Professionally I work in the transit field, but I am also the father of an early 20's son who is disabled but not wheelchair bound. Accompanied by myself or his mother he can use any transit service, but he needs help on stairs. Travelling alone he is limited to conventional taxicabs or paratransit service. So I probably understand this issue better than most people. Parallel bus service is not redundant, but an important adjunct to subway service in New York.
It may be that parallel bus routes are primarily serving elderly or disabled riders that can't (without hardship) use the non-accessible portions of the subway system. If these routes were cut, such riders might flock to paratransit. And we all know about the economics of paratransit, right?
Mark
I don't. Could you or someone provide some illumination on the topic?
Exhorbitantly high costs for very poor service.
And those costs are very highly subsidized. Farebox recovery? What farebox?
Paratransit's got its place, but not to the exclusion of buses.
Mark
In the public interest, the Transit Authority has a duty to avoid wasteful duplication.
If a bus and a subway run close together, then consider closing one or the other, whichever would save more money and inconvenience the fewest people by the least amount. Of course the two criteria may not always coincide.
Buses are better at serving sparsely populated areas, where there are not enough passengers to justify a subway service.
So where subway ridership is light, consider closing the subway line or at least some of its stations. Even if there is no parallel bus, consider providing one if it is the cheaper alternative. Or (horror of horrors) let the people walk a few blocks!
Is it economical to run subway trains to the Rockaway peninsula, a thinly populated area with very low subway ridership?
And why should three subway lines run all the way to Stillwell Avenue, whose only "catchment area" is the Atlantic Ocean? The present temporary arrangement, with shuttle buses, seems more economical than the permanent one.
Other places where the bus could be retained rather than the subway include the northern ends of elevated lines in the Bronx. One example is the Wakefield line, where the bus exactly follows the subway along White Plains Road.
In outlying areas, buses can serve as feeders to the subways.
And how about people who want to transfer between these lines?
My point is that subways are very good at transporting large numbers of passengers in densely built-up areas, where they have both a speed advantage and a capacity advantage over surface transport. In particular they are very good at transporting masses of passengers between densely populated residential areas and the Central Business District.
But the advantages of subways diminish as you reach into the more sparsely populated outlying areas, where buses can serve larger areas at lower cost. Buses can serve the lower-density catchment areas, feeding into the rapid-mass-transit subway.
Subways and buses perform best in different situations. So if you plan to close one to avoid duplication, you have a choice between closing the bus and closing the subway. The choice should depend on the situation.
If the trains didn't run all the way to Stillwell, they'd still have to turn somewhere. Probably Stillwell much of the time.
I strongly suspect the extra cost of the current shuttle buses is more than the cost of just running all 4 lines to Stillwell.
Besides, in the summer months the demand for Stillwell is there on all 4 lines.
Given that the subway line already exists, and is being upgraded, the additional operating costs (if any) of running those trains to Stillwell Avenue are probably quite low. The capital costs have already been spent, but in principle I suppose you should allow for amortization.
According to the schedules, there are plenty of trains on the White Plains Road line, but north of Gun Hill Road there are relatively few riders compared with some of the lines in Queens. The Dyre Avenue line also has low ridership, but it has no parallel bus route.
You obviously object strongly to the idea of cutting back the White Plains line and (judging from your response) I don't think you need worry because if the idea was ever taken seriously, which I doubt, there would surely be a public outcry and then the politicians would intervene to keep the subway running.
It would be far cheaper to run shorter trains that would allow one man crews instead of two,
The bennifits are 70% reduction in labor costs(OPTO T/O get paid an extra $2 a hour)
Fewer car miles run reducing maiantance and engery costs
More frequent service that will attract more riders and possible elliminate some redundent bus routes in some areas IF and ONLY IF all stations are upgraded to ADA complient. In addtion move to a model where all tooken booths are closed and security is provided via CCTV cameras and station security personel.
Elliminated train service would reduce ridership overall. Eliminating sduplicate bus service would not reduce ridership.
Elimiating train service would also reduce the number of people headingin to the city off hours reducing tax revenues
Is this a proposal to save money or to improve service?
I'm not convinced you can do both, especially on the 4.
I am aware that this setup would not work on all lines at all non rush hour times.
If your goal was to strictly save money, many lines could operate comfortable with half length OPTo trains with no increase in TPH.
Of course the more TPH of addtional service you add the fewer dollars you save.
Adding more TPH for example on the Brighton would significantly increase ridership on weekends, Current weekend trains are fairly full during the day due to the long waits between trains.
Many riders simply drive into the city due to the longer waits and the greater avaiablity to transfer to other lines to get them where they need to go. Two 8-15 waites is not acceptable.
Increase ridership for "errands" such as taking the subway a few stops to go shopping and return home Pulling people who live near the train from their cars
The increased ridership would being in more revenue
Some cost savings + increased revenue = Lower operating cost and more convience.
Also the subway was fully ADA complient some duplicate bus lines could be eliminated. Of course this is far in the future but should be a conciderqtion when the MTA undertakes station repair and long term planning
Shorter trains and the need for decoupling and re-coupling needs to be done wisely.
All trains decoupled should be put into service.
New coupler technology that does not requires someone physically decoupling the cars from the track bed would reduce costs. Preferable an autoamtic coupling coupler that at a push of the button (and a safety key of course) could separate and reconect train sets
Easy coupling and decoupling of half train permenat train sets could also allow longer trains to be operated during the peak of a weekend period or to allow the train set to be put into rush hour service in ther morning quickly and effeciently
The above would not require an addtional person to couple and recouple train sets. train sets would pull into terminal, and the existing crew would pull the train out as two separate trains
In cab flat panels to view platform cameras would help to reduce dwell time but are mandatory to impliment the service. Such a system could also safely allow full length OPTO operation
The Lex Express, the Flushing and the QB are different -- you can have pretty good headways off peak because the ridership is so high. Others could perhaps use more service.
As for the "L", I witnessed an interchange between a signal engineer and an RTO guy at a meeting once.
Signal Engineer: "Once we finish CBTC, you can run half length trains twice as often! You can do 30 tph or more!"
RTO Guy: "We tried to run more trains during the Willie B shutdown, but we couldn't get them turned fast enough at the 8th Avenue interlocking."
All it take is one bottleneck.
It interesting to see how CBTC effects the "L" train. What could be done at the interlocking to allow more trains to be turned. Could human issues such as operators moving from the front to the back of the train play a part in the slow turnaround. Could ATO solve this problem?
A few lines that could bennifit half lenth OPTO and equiptemtn is available to do so
N,Q,W.
Q (my home line) could easily use 4 Car OPTO service
between 9 pm- 7 Am and all of the day on the weekends. The Q has plenty of capasity to turn trains at bith it's terminals to make the service work. The weekned service itervals if all the 4 car untis operated on the local track on the brighton would be more tph on the local track then curent rus hour service.
Both the N and W lines could bennifit from more frequent shorter trains.
The sea beach and 4th ave services need more frequrnt service desperatly nights and weekends. People avoid the subway in these area during these times. Both these lines have plenty of potential ridership if the service was provided.
The R could also bennifit but not sure if the R46 are det up in 4 car units.
A few questions about coupling and decoupling car units?
How long does it take with the current process?
Could a coupler be desinged that would allow the train crew couple and decouple the mechanical and electrical conections at a touch of a button?
Could what I preposed ccoupling and decoupling occur in a terminal station with such automated coupler device?
From a logical technical point of view I don't see why it couldn't be done or engineered to be done. Some of the communications functions in the future could be duplicated by wireless conectivity if the automatic cupling and decoupling results in communication iisues when trains are reassembled
Almost all of them have been for some time. In fact, 'B' units have no cabs!
There are 13 2-car units with cabs at both ends, and one 2-car unit with a cab at one end. (make sure that the blind end isn't the end of a train mr. yardmaster, haha. I'd like to see that happen one day!)
Other then the franklin ave shuttle, I am not aware of any other line that runs in two
someone will be a bit embarrased and in troublr ig the blind end ends up at the end of the car.
Presumably because when rebuilding time came around, there were More units with cabs than without. These 14 2 car R46 units proved useful for 6 car G train service. That one A-B unit gave a rider an unparalleled view of a C/R at work in his cab (one that probably made him uncomfortable, to say the least).
Why can't they have one extra T/O standing at the other end to take the train out as soon as the switch can be set? The only problem that type of terminal should cause is trains crossing in front of eachother on the crossover.
I through the question your responded to as a retorical question.
Once ATO takes hold, their will be no one driving the train. Just illustrates another advantage of ATO and why the MTA is paying the price now for not begining to roll out ATO years ago
Maintenance costs, no? Takes the same amount of personnel to run a short train as a 10-car one.
Yes, but then the goal is a service improvement. OTOH, let's say you are running one train every 10 minutes to provide decent service, but they are far from full. So instead of twice as many half trains, you do a little less -- one train every six minutes instead of one every five. Now you've saved one train. But if dwell time goes up, it takes time to merge and split, and you have higher pay, you've lost your savings.
Perhaps the greatest benefit would be overnight -- except that it is then that the tracks are maintained, and with less than 20 mintues between trains you'd need more G.O.s.
It would only be more expensive if you ran twice as many TPH. In addtion to the diffentce in pay between C/R and T/O there is also OPTO bonus to concider.
On most lines you would not need to run twice as many TPH. You would need only 1.1 to 1.5 more TPH to sufficently handle the traffic load. Most lines on weekends are not anywhere near capasity.
On the Q for example, the trains run on weekneds at less then 50% capasity and 70% of seats full. I spent 2 hours making observations along the broadway and brighton line this afternoon and evening.
At 1.1 to 1.5 increae in tph total car usage is reduced by 30-40% reducing manitance and fuel expenses. Payrol for train crew salaries would only be reduced bt 20-30% due to the increased cost of T/O pay vs C/R pay plus OPTO differential
In addtion more riders will be drawn into the system increasing revenue by 10%
the end result of OPTO service more often on most lines would be a reduction of cost by 20-30% and an increase in revenue by 10%. Increased rider abolity to easily transfer to other lines especially in night and late night hours.
Some lines in the mid afternoom may need slightly more then 1.5 tph increase with the shorter trains, bur most would not.
As for the dwell time increase, most stations are on the T/O side of the train. Cosistant obvious signage utilizing color coding and station announcements will educate riders where to wait.
Twice as may train per hour would mean a nice jump in ridership.
In the case of the broadway line, frquent service would more evenly distribute the load on the local and express tracks reducing and crowding issues and drawing riders who would otherwise take a cab. Most cab riders are subway riders not bus riders
And then would your half-length trains be able to accomodate it? Doubtful.
I support this plan during the night. But weekends, trains on most lines are already running pretty frequently (less than double digit wait) and with pretty decent ridership. Doing it middays would just be an operational headache, and if there's a delay......
Yes the half length trains would be able to handle the extra load. Remeber that current utilization on most lines at best is 70% at the current services capasity at the peak areas of the route at the peak of the day. Most lines are far bellow that. Reducing the number of cars per hour by 25-30% will still leave plenty of capasity to handle current loads, running one to two additioal tph on top of that would be able to handle the addtioal 10-15% ridershp increase. Also keep in mind that most lines have plenty of capasity for addtional TPH at night and on weekends.
You need to run 1.85 TPH short trains to equal the current operating costs of the current weekend full length service. IF ridership increases 10-15%. The breakeven cost moves up to aprox 2.1 tph increase in service. Once you exceeed 2x increase in TPH you begin to add addtional maintance and energy costs into the equation.
As more r-143 and the upcoming r160 are put into service, such as service pattern could be implimented where apropiate systemwide. There is currently not enough cars with full width cabs to impliment such as service systemwide on weekends. In adddtion There is issues on the broadway line until feb on weekends because of a GO that routes all broadway service via the tunnel.
It would be nice for the MTA to experiment with such as service. The best place to start would be to reduce the headway on the G on saturdays and run the OPTO service. It has been posted on this board that saturday G service will be moving back to two man crews due to crowding with 12 min headways.
Reduce the headways to aprox 8 minutes, Experiment with which combination of signage, announcements, lighting and advetisments will help to train riders to wait in the proper part of the platform and reduce dwell time.
I am a big fan of in cab monitors to control the doors via CCTV camera's. try that out on some weekends. Allow the motorman to operate both and have a supervisor(really the projoect manager inm charge of the OPTO implimentation improvemetnt project). The project managers job is two fold. To look for ways toimprove the implimentation and to help the T/O if he runs into trouble as he/she gets used to doing both jobs. If successful this could pave the way for PTO full length trains operated in the same manner
Look at N/R/g/f/2/3/d They have double digit headways most of the weekend. The broadway local which serves mostly manhattan residents would see significant ridership increases if more frequent service was provided. Many of these residents take the cab or walk medium distances where if they knew the trian would arrive rairly frequently, many wouuld choose to use the train
The brighton Q line has decent ridership but would gain more ridership if headways were shorter . I ride the brighton to school on sat and sundays. You see lots of bored faces waiting for the train.
The Q on sat runs aprox every 8 min from 7am-8pm. After 8pm the headway increases to 9-20 min. Using shorter train at 6 min intervals and running some of those trains as brighton express would attract more ridership. If the increased ridership results in the need for more half length train, that is good news for the MTA, The union train operators and the riding public. As long as the extra trainsets load factor is about 50% the MTA is profitable operatig the service.
I went out with a clipboard yesterday and interviewed some riders(I am not shy and had to do such surveys while I was in college for a marketing class). I dressed nice, made a little sign and explained to the riders that I was doing a reasearch paper for my masters in urban planning(a small lie)
I asked 30 riders along the broadway line at 24, 23, 34 and 42nd st stops a few questions?
Q1)What is thier three biggest compliants about night and weeknd service?
The top reponces were.
1)train re-routes due to construction and inconsistant announcements by conductores and signage
This was the biggest complaint by far. 28 of 30 respondents had this as their number one complaint
2)Long waites
3)Hard to transfer on weekends
4)Smelly conditions with all the construction
Q2) Would they be open to the idea of shorter trians if they came more often even if it ment that they may not get a seat all the time?
This questrion got mixed reponces. They all liked the idea of more frequent service especially now that the fare was increased
Those who were traveling within manahattan all loved the idea as standing for 5 min would not be an issue.
Those who lived further like the fact that the trains come more often, but were not as happy if they had to stand for a long period of time.
Being that the survey was informal, I mentioned that standing room only would only be an issue on the most crowsed portions of the route in manhattan.
Q3)What is your responce if I told you that such a service would not cost more then the current service the MTA runs and actually would cost the MTA less?
The riders surveyed were shocked that they could have service more frequently and not cost the MTA any more the now. Most asked me how was this possible and why wasnt the MTA using it now.
All it take is one bottleneck.
8th Ave is a signaling created bottleneck. If CBTC doesn't fix it, CBTC is worthless. I've described it before, but let me describe it again.
Scenario: either 1 or 2 trains are sitting at 8th Ave. It doesn't really matter, as long as the 1 train is on the north side of the platform.*
1. Time = 0 or before. A train arrives at 6th Ave. It sees a red signal and waits.
2. Time = 0. The train at 8th Ave starts to move.
3. Time = +30 seconds. The train at 8th Ave clears the interlocking. The Train at 6th Ave still sees a red signal and remains where it is.
4. Time = + 60 seconds. The train from 8th Ave. starts to enter the station at 6th Ave. The red signal for the train already at 6th Ave turns green and that train now starts to move.
No wonder they can't turn more than 15 tph. The signal at 6th Ave. stays red for a full 30 seconds after there is no possible train in the way, and the train is held a good 1500' in back of the switch. If it takes 30 seconds to throw the switch, they need a new switch. That's cheap relative to a whole CBTC system.
* IIRC, this scenario even happens when the only train at 8th Ave is at the south platform and no switches need to be thrown. But I'm not 100% sure. Besides, usually there are 2 trains at the 8th Ave platform by the time a train is ready to leave.
They are installing new switches. Perhaps this will go away. Let me know in 2005.
Glad to hear it.
"Perhaps this will go away."
I sure hope so.
"Let me know in 2005."
Whether it works well from the start or not, CBTC on the L will give us all a lot to post about.
You mean they are replacing faster acting elctro-pneumatic switches with slower acting electric switches?
You mean they are replacing faster acting elctro-pneumatic switches with slower acting electric switches?)
Yes, that's what I've heard. The newer switches are electrical, which are slower, and that accounts for some lost capacity.
During at time of financial constraints and falling ridership, New York City's transit system did what you might approve of -- think of the short term, and don't worry about the long term. They replaced equipment that cost more to maintain and was less reliable with equipment that cost less to maintain and was more reliable. It was also slower. They also reset all the signals to slow the system down, to ensure greater safety.
It is easy to say now that it was a mistake, but I wasn't there at the time and neither were you. They were operating under different contraints. Then ridership boomed, and things changed.
Whoever dedided they didn't need higher speed switches was no different in their thinking that those who say we don't need the Second Avenue Subway. Why spend the money?
Signal Engineer: "Once we finish CBTC, you can run half length trains twice as often! You can do 30 tph or more!"
RTO Guy: "We tried to run more trains during the Willie B shutdown, but we couldn't get them turned fast enough at the 8th Avenue interlocking."
You have a signal engineer who does not know that the terminals are the constraint to most train operations.
You have an RTO Guy who does not wish to admit that they used to operate 60% more trains per hour through the same 8th Ave interlocking with the same signal system.
You have somebody listening to this with a straight face, thinking he is hearing wisdom.
Larry, Moe and Curly? :-)
The answer is no. The end of the line is where the yards and turnarounds are, so that's where the trains are going. Besides, eliminating a paralell bus means you have to walk a few extra blocks. Eliminating a train means you have to take a slow local bus and then transfer. Much worse.
ALL lines, not just WPR, are empty at the end of the line. If they weren't, there would be no room for people closer in to get on. They become crowded as they approach Manhattan and other close in areas (or outbound, become LESS crowded as they move away). Therefore, bus riders making shorter trips could use the train at no additional cost, because they would be getting off before others get one. That's the point.
THE PUBLIC WOULD BE BETTER OFF WITH 5 CAR OPTO ON IRT THE 2/5 NIGHTS AT TIMES WHRN THE TRAINS SERVICE EXCEEDS 8 MIN INTERVALS AT ALL TIMES EXCEOT RUSH HOURS
I don't fully disagree, if it's feasible. But your view is usually one of reducing expenses.
Half length OPTO costs more for various reasons:
- Time spent splitting and reconnecting trains.
- Increased run time because of increased dwell time at each station. The riders NEVER get used to the short trains because it's different new riders each night.
- On the 2 and 4 you need the train capacity. So you can't run 1.5 times as many half length trains; you have to run twice as many.
By the way, the 5 at night is a Dyre shuttle only. Cost savings and all that. If you make it a full length route now you have 3 services on the Lex at night, which may be a bit much.
"Half length OPTO costs more for various reasons: "
All the below issues could be adressed to reduce thier impact on users and cost to perform them
"Time spent splitting and reconnecting trains."
Design a new coupler. The goal would be to be able to decouple and recouple each half train unit within one minute or less. Such a coupler could be connected and disconnected from within the cab, by the train operator. This is something that definatly can be designed and implimented
"Increased run time because of increased dwell time at each station. The riders NEVER get used to the short trains because it's different new riders each night"
Proper consistant signage, lighting, uding color coding combined with station announcements and in car and bus advetising campaign could change public behavior over time. The current G impliminataion is poorly executed. Conductors on train connecting eith the G do not inform riders of where the G will stop.
One example of where riders have adjusted is the franklin Ave shuttle at prospect park station. Riders know which car on the D/Q to ride on to get a cross platform transfer. You also see riders waiting in the propper part of the platform for the train.
also riders wkow what car to ride on to meet up with the stairway at thier destination. People will adjust if the MTA keeps the signage consitant and the sercive operated consistantly over time
"On the 2 and 4 you need the train capacity. So you can't run 1.5 times as many half length trains; you have to run twice as many"
Each lines situation needs to be evaluated individulally. Although twice as much service will cost a bit more. I firmly believe that more riders will utilize the service in most cases. There is a group og riders who like to use the subway but avoid it off hours due to the inconvience of the long waits and difficult transfers.
Thus the increased service would over time draw more riders thus justify the additional costs.
The Q line on weekends would also need close to twice he current tph as the current service due to the current volume and the additional riders who would choose to ride the subway
"By the way, the 5 at night is a Dyre shuttle only. Cost savings and all that. If you make it a full length route now you have 3 services on the Lex at night, which may be a bit much."
Shuttle services chase riders away. Much of the cost savings are chased away by the reduced ridership. Only riders with no other choice will utilize the service. The same is true with the R and W shuttles.
Many people have options such as driving or not going at all. how much economic activity is lost due to this.
last night I choose not to meet a friend in the city because I dreaded the long wait home. The place we were going was not near a Q station thus I would need to walk far to the train making it hard to catch the train with 20 min headways overnight
That has little to do with it. Hoyt-Schermerhorn (the only cross platform transfer during peak hours) is a case I observe everyday. When an A or C comes into the station and people get off, everybody moves right to where the G train's rear willl be (annoyingly too. Many people are either getting off at the very front or very back of the train, and it makes those parts of the trains more crowded). But if there's a G train there already, everybody has to make a mad dash if they aren't in a middle car. And don't say that people should be on the right car of the A/C, because that's unrealistic.
Additionally, you have many stations with Front AND rear entries. People are always running for the G train. At nights, should the C/R hold for these people on the lines you're naming for this OPTO?
last night I choose not to meet a friend in the city because I dreaded the long wait home. The place we were going was not near a Q station thus I would need to walk far to the train making it hard to catch the train with 20 min headways overnight
Welcome to the world of weekend "G" service. That service runs a good 12-15 minutes apart on the weekend, and really is just a LONG shuttle, but it still sees half decent ridership when compared to it's weekday ridership #'s. The wait isn't going to always chase people away.
In my example the A and C would also be utilizing OPTO
Riders once agin will adjust to where to use the entrace closest to where the train stops.
If the train comes more often, the average wait time even if the rider enters at the wrong part of the station when the train is already in station will be somewhat similar to the current wait with the longer ttains woth shorter waits
example
15 min headways on the R on weekends.
Half car OPTo service 7 min headways. Even if the rider misses the first OPTo short train, he is still likely to wait less then if the service was running at 15 min headways. At worst he waits the same amount of time.
Weekend C service; yes. When the R-160 arrives this should be implemented on the C line. Weekend A service; no. The line gets too many riders from transfers to have short trains on the weekends. Trains get pretty crowded pretty fast. As for night implementation on the A, it'd have to be fairly late, because when the A begins late night service pattern, it's running close together already and is pretty full.
The A has fairly good service levels which would suggest fairly good ridership. which is always good
Like I stated before my goal is not to cut costs at the expense of the good of the rider
It is my view that the longer trains more oftem is both a waste of money and bad for the riding public
Since all lines bar the G run in Manhattan I don't think you can run short trains at night. A lot of what you propose is dependent on so many other operational changes in the system. Is this feasible? It's asking a lot of the TA. Maybe it can work in a few places but systemwide? You need long trains at night. Improve the signaling characteristics, get more cars in circulation, adjust routes. Don't shorten the trains. I saw that in the `80s; taking a four car D train from Columbus Circle to Kings Hwy at around one in the morning. Made the ride uncomfortable, standees by 34th Street all the way into Brooklyn, and it made the platforms seem LESS safe. One point I haven't seen mentioned here: the welcoming sight, late at night, of a solid subway train with all the doors open filling the length of a train platform. Another one a them psycho-log-ikal efforts fer sure...but effective enough at that. With short trains it's like, the oasis off in the distance....
The number of TPH will be still less then current rush hour TPH service levels. Singnaling charteristics would not have to be monified.
Less total cars will be on the road .
Your experience form the 1980's would not be duplicated because during the 1980's the MTa could not run addtional tph because of the need for 2 man crews.
I do not support shortend trains without incresed TPH. The goal is to come up with balace between cost reductions and reduced headways.
More tph and shorter train is more safe becasue it reduces waits at stations overnight and consilidats riders into fewer cars to increase the chance a police officer will be on your car
I don't know the economics of specific subway stations and lines. Obviously, your logic has been employed in certain places, such as the weekend closure of Fulton/Broad on the J, and the late night closure of 145/148 on the 3. We could do more of that, although Larry Littlefield says the subway is self-supporting, so perhaps that's not the problem.
Do we really want each station evaluated on a for-profit basis? If the U.S. Postal Service charged what it really costs to deliver a letter, postage from NYC to rural Alaska would be a lot higher than postage from TriBeCa to NoLiTa. But we've made a public policy decision not to operate that way, and changing it could have surprising implications.
The real money losers are the dozens of routes that never really have full buses except for an hour at each rush hour. They run all day long at 2 or 3 times per hour with a handful of people. They feed subway routes but hardly ever duplicate them. They perform a valuable service: the people who do use them would be stranded without them. But they are expensive.
Example: I've used the M8 (8th/9th St crosstown) dozens of times. It's very convenient, often has older people who would have trouble walking north to the L train and handling the steps there, and also saves time relative to walking to the L, taking the L crosstown, and walking back downtown. But I've NEVER had to stand on it, not once in dozens of trips.
Should the M8 be cut back severely? If truly necessary, yes. But it would have a real impact on the quality of a lot of people's lives. And a cutback wouldn't increase subway usage.
I've only done this with Brooklyn, but in Brooklyn the heavily traveled routes are those that either feed the subway from areas beyond it (B41, B46) or run crosstown (B35, B6). Those that duplicate the subway carry fewer riders.
Some feeders carry less riders because they only serve a short run and a small area (B77). They cost less for the same reason -- very few buses required. Costing it out, I'll bet they do OK.
I'm talking about the B25, which runs right over the A, and the B75, which runs right over the F. The city could allow private vans and car services to serve those routes, for those willing to pay. But why put a subsidized bus there, when people could nearly as easily use the subway by walking a couple of extra blocks?
Remember, most of the cost of the subway have nothing to do with the trains -- MOW, stations, shops and yards, etc. Those are fixed. Add a few trains and you are better off than adding a few buses.
Fare sales at all stations is not needed and would reduce the cost of allowing a train to stop and drop off passengers. Fares are not sold on buses. Why is this need to have the right to buy a fare at each fare control atr all times. closing the booths especially at night is just good economic sense. Security and human preseence could be provided in a more effecient economical way
MVM fare sales is a good middle ground
Shorter trains that reduce labor cost is a good middle ground and has the bennifit of allowing more frequent service at a lower cost then the current service. Atomatic train control would allow even shorter ZPTC to improve the econmics even more.
ZPTC does not have to meen crew less trains. Just as with the fare controls presense would be provided by cctv, police patrols both uniform and undercover. Most trains after midnight already have one office on the train at most times. With the shorter trains it is more likely the officer is in your car
this does not reduce rider safety beccause 75ft cars already have zero train crew presewnse.
As for the USPS, residential mail delivery should be cut back from 6 days a week to 4 days a week. The need for 6 day a week residential service is just not there and it cost a ton. USPS could cut 15% of it's workforce.
Except for junk mail and some paper bills, the majority of mail delivered is JUNK MAIL.
More and more people are moving to paperless bills viewablle online. Out of the 10 bills each month I recieve 9 of them paperless.
Another point is that the current service patter of long headways and full length trains also makes transfering difficult and tedius.
Thus if broadway local staion in the wall street area were closed at night and lex local stations one block away were open. With the current service patterns, it would be a tremdous burden for a rider traveling from bay ridge to lower manhattan due to the long wait to transfer
If the train scame more frequently such a transfer would not be as much of a problem
[the subway is self-supporting]
The subway may be self-supporting as a whole, but some parts of it may be wasteful.
[Do we really want each station evaluated on a for-profit basis?]
I would like to evaluate each station in terms of its costs and benefits, and not just monetary costs and benefits. For instance some little-used stations save time to their users but they waste more time to greater number of riders who stay on board. Those stations are net time-wasters, and closing them would speed up the subway and save money.
The area around the station should be looked at as to see how can one better develope that area to incease ridership. If the infrastructure is there we might as well exploit it.
Station operatins need to be evaluated to as to whether a tooken booth clerk is needed 24/7. At most stations a clerk is not needed to sell fares. Those postions should be eliminated
The Lexington Ave bus is always crowded, with people going short distances so you get good turnover. In fact, I've never seen an avenue bus route in manhattan that doesn't get very heavy usage.
Uhhh, this is no option IMO. I will never take a "dollar van". Anywhere. Unregulated, ad hoc, unaccountable in lieu of accident and injuries....nope. I ain't gettin' on them. I see the way they handle themselves at Kings Plaza and in Jamaica. Taking an MTA service is equivalent to driving with insurance.
Not only does the city not inforce the law in terms of illgally picking up riders on the street, but the NYPD does not constantly enforce the traffic laws that these vans consistantly break.
A van flew past two cars at a stop sign at 53rd place(near radio shack) at 40 MPH not even looking for traffic.
Another van blocked the bus lanes in front og KP parking perpedicular(yes at a 90 degree angle) to the side walk. Still another hooked a U turn in the middle of flatbush ave between r and filmore.
The NYPD could easily remove 2/3 of these vans who do not follow the law y just enforcing existing traffic laws. Part of the problrm is the antiquated way the NYPD rights tickets and checks for warrents which takes sometimes as much as 10 in to issue a ticket.
Leaglly regulated, properly operated vans could fill the gap if there is indead demand for such a service. The need is not there as manahattan residents have the option of taking a cab. Although resticting the vans to operate on one ave, and a lower fare of say $3 would get some people to use such a service. My only concern is all of a sudden some lawyer will come up with a way to demand a subsidy
Why did the private bus lines in manahattan fail? Were they free to set thier own fare. Would they have failed if their crosstown routes could have allowed subway transfers?
Mark
All stations along the line must be ADA complient to make it easy for seniors and the disabled to use the service.
If you look at it from a finacial prespective, the costs to install elevators and other equiptment would pay for itself rather quickly if duplicate bus service was eliminated.
If private operators want to opererate bus service it should NOT BE SUBSIDIESED. Some People would choose to use such as service. In the end capitolistic forces would fid away to deliver the service for thise who refuse to use the subway at a reasoanable price. Far cheaper then what NYCT could deliver the service.
Most duplicate routes could be eliminated. Proper subway to bus transfer improvemnts, ADA complience etc would make the impact on the public minimal.
Running shorter trains during no rush hours thus reducing headway would make the train service quicker and more reliable then the bus service in most cases
The subways in manhattan were built to take public transportation off the crowed streets. The privates saw an opurtunity to take thier part. The city should have let all route fold except those where their was no subway
To make just ONE station ADA compliant typically costs $10's of millions. Due to the complexity of such projects, it takes several years from design to completion. A typical basic station requires at least four elevators (street to mezzanine, mezzanine to platform, on both sides). The ADA compliance project at a more complex station, such as Columbus Circle, will require at least 7 elevators.
So, do the math, and figure out what it will take (in dollars and years) to make an entire line ADA compliant. Of course, there are other problems with this idea. On many lines, the stations are much farther apart than the bus stops, so even with ADA compliance the services are not identical.
Given the complexity of such projects and the funds available, I wouldn't say the MTA has done a bad job. It will be many decades before the whole system is ADA compliant.
The MTA should have thier own in house elevator installion and mainatace personel. that will reduce costs and contractor issue
n
David
Once again I rather the working Joe be paid a bit more then the money going into a contractors pocket
Repair of existing equipment and removal of old equipment/installation of new equipment are not the same thing.
David
I see no evidence that there is money to be saved on those bus routes. Have you ever ridden a bus on a line that parallels subway service and found it to be relatively empty? Maybe in the outer boroughs. I've never seen it in Manhattan.
The Bx 1/2 and 4 buses in the Bronx are heavily used, and at least 85% of the line's route runs above or below a subway line. Empty buses on the Grand Concourse are a rarity, unless you are at East 138th st, the start of both routes.
Id their capasit on the subway line below them? If thier is then the line is not absolutly needed.
THe MTA would be better off spending money to make the subway stations easier to get up to or down to then to operate the duplicate bus service. why should we subsidise both
In the case of the bronz, I can not attest to whether the bus lines are justified or not. In manahttan the issue is cut and dry.
I know of a few bus lines in brooklyn that run under or above a subway line for part of thier route but the line is mearly passing through going to and from other place where the subway does not go
The cureent bus riders would use the subway instead. Elimianted the north south subway to bus loophole and ridership will reduce bus 10%
As for the MTA doing a bad job of upgradig its infrastructure, if monies were properly steared to upgrade stations along these lines to be in ada complient, we could have a serious discussion about eliminating these bus lines
Bronx:
Bx 1/2 (D line)
4 (portions on 2 and 6 elevated lines)
32 (4 line)
Manhattan]
M 14 runs between 1st ave and Alphabet City only.
M42 between 8th Ave and Javits Center
M101, 102, 103 (IRT East side)
M10 (IND 6th/8th Ave Lines)
M104, entire route
Brooklyn:
B25 (Do I have to tell you what subway line runs underneath Fulton St?)
B37, B63 (see other posts on this thread)
B60 (nearby L train from Montrose Ave to Rockaway Parkway)
B61 (within 3/4 mile of all G line stations from Queens Plaza to Smith-9th)
B48 is eliminated south of Fulton St because of the FA Shuttle.
B68 (Brighton Line is 4 blocks away, or across Prospect Park)
Q24, Q56 (Jamaica Ave el.)
Queens:
Q32 runs only between 82nd st/Roosevelt IRT station and Northern Blvd
Q102 running from Queens Plaza to 30th Ave is eliminated, also Q19A and Q101/Steinway only (W line is only 8 blocks away at 31st st).
Even the S79 in Staten Island is hit because it runs close to the SIR.
This will not make it around the corner.
I've used the Q32 on occasion when I had to make a quick trip into Manhattan from Queens Plaza. It's as slow as a turtle anyway. Crosstown on 32 St I was easily able to keep pace with it walking one time when I missed it. It's nice for a round trip as a subway to bus transfer but only if one has plenty of time for the bus end of it. I guess it does qualify as redundant and I have wondered why they would offer a service that the subway puts to shame.
In the case of manhattan alternates bus lines are available from within a block or two walk.
That's a very kind sentiment.
It is NOT compatible with shutting down bus lines like the Lex, even after the SAS is built. I can give you dozens of real examples of bus trips taken by the infirm that would require an extra 6 blocks of walking even if you took the SAS or Lex and TWO crosstown buses.
The Purpose of public transit is not to provide door to door service to every location every place. Cabs are the means to go those places. Also the MTA is paying large sums of money to provide door to door service to the elderly and disabled(many elderly quilify as disabled)
What should manahatan rsidents have a better level of service then residents in other areas. I can point out hundreds of examples in the outer bouroughs where it is difficicult to get from point a to point B by public transit
A line in the sand need to be draw. Proper unpolitical analysis needs to be done.
Because it has a higher density and therefore those services can be provided with less or no subsidy. The same reason the outer boroughs have better transportation services than the suburbs and the suburbs have better transportation than rural areas.
If Manhattan as a whole had a transportation budget, I am convinced it would have a positive bottom line. It's the outer boroughs where the expenses exceed the costs.
Manhattan is willing to subsidze the outer boroughs, but it expects better, though far less subsidized, services as a result.
Manahttan residents could be served better by a realocation of transit dollars
It's more like a few areas. Let's not kid ourselves. Counting the comercial development, manhattan is probably the densest populated area in the U.S.
Eliminating bus routes is a drastic measure that should not be done before a good deal of study and analysis. It is a pipe dream at this point anyway with most stations not able to accomadate the disabled and the elderly with all those steps
the better way to go is to try to make the cost of operating such routes as cost effective as possible.
Attempt to use new technologies such as hybrid drive engines, GPS assited bus moitoring and tracking, Bus rapid transit technologies that give an aproaching bus the chance to make it through an intersection by delaying the light from turning red a few extra secounds and articulated buses where practical.
Eliminating the north south bus transfer loophole will help reduce crowding.
Bus riding in manhattan is not a fun experience. Especially any bus that crosses a major avenue south of 96th street. Not quite sure why anyone would want to take a bus unless it is absolutely needed.
Which subway station, ADA-compliant or otherwise, is within a "block or two walk" of 83rd and Riverside? (The M5 stops at 83rd and Riverside.)
I count three blocks up Riverside, one very long block to West End, and one moderately long block to Broadway. Is there a closer subway station that I'm not aware of?
I did not create this thread and I don't agree with 90% of the assertions of the thread creator. read the first in thread.
Bus lines that serve areas where train service does not exist should be kept. The service should focus on serving avenue more then a two block walk of the nearest train line and as feeder services to train lines. Most of the current bus lines are just he carbon copy of the service the private operators ran to compeat with the subways. Some of them are not needed. Most of them are.
In the case of the lex ave bus if sas is built, that would be a dupicate service in some places. Why not use some of that money to provided better service in areas where the train is far.
That is all I am suggesting. I did not attempt in any way to say that I have the answers as to which line should stay, which line should be modified or which line should go. My original post on this thread suggestes that the issue needs to be looked at seriously and hard choices need to be made.
Agreed. There may be some underutilized bus lines in the outer boroughs that parallel subways, but there's no big money here. There's definitely no money in Manhattan, where the bus lines paralleling the subways are very heavily used and not big money losers.
They are not big mony losers?
If the option of the bus were eliminated those riders would ride the subway, thus improving the economy of scale and thus lowering total overall operating costs. If you can't see that this is a big savings then i don't know what planet you live on. Many riders on these bus lines take the train south and the bus north taking advntage of a loophole in the system. Remove the loophole and ridership will decline drematically. In the past many bus riders also took the bus because prior to metrocard, transfer to east west bus from the train costed two fares.
The subways were built to remove traffic off the surface. the entire volume of passengers on all north south bus routes that parrael subway lines could be handles rather easily.
Besides the cost of operating the duplicate north south bus lines, there is the economic cost of the extra traffic and lost economic activity on the surface buses cause.
Of course there is a large obstivle and cost to upgrade each subway station for ADA complience. those costs would easily be recovered in a rather short period of time. The ADA upgrades are needed anyway, the mta instead of it current hodgepog aproach shoul upgrade based on a line by line basis
Of course the cross town would not be effected.
HTe majority of the north south route such as ones that mirror the subway on broadway if they were eliminated tommorrow, the riders would just use the subway instead.
Of course this aasumes that all stations along the line are ADA complent to allow easy access to seniors and the disabled.
Eliminate the south on the subway and north on the bus loophole and you would see a large drop off in ridership. this could bee done.
Bus is more convenient for various reasons: stops closer together, on streets where there is no subway, and are ADA compliant. True, my 3rd point could be taken care of, but what about the first 2?
The subway stop spacing is close enought to walk to in between locations.
If the slower service was not costing me money in higher fare and tac subsisfies. Go for it.
So, what would be more fair to eliminate? The Bus that runs above a subway line for 85% of it's route (but is crowded) or the bus that runs on it's own path (but is empty). I don't see a reason to take away a service that's used.
I agree with you on this one, if it is used to begin with, why get rid of it and cause problems. Why get rid of something if the chance is that there is no viable replacement? Then folks would have to spend MORE money to travel, which doesn't make sense.
The most logical thing to do is to elliminate the north south bus to train trabsfer loophole
The people who use this loophole both are phsyically able to take the train and are costing the MTA revenue. Just the same as bus to bus transfers have certain restrictions. this will allow the bus service to be less crowded.
The bus that runs 85% above a subway line is a huge waste of money. I don't care how many bleedng heart stories you give. Unless the train line below is over capasity. The answer which will never happen is to cahrge more for such buses.
I am not saying that this should be done, but if you totally elininated the bus, within a few years, nobody would see a reason for such a bus running 85% of it's route above a subway line.
This bus no matter how full, is a money looser.
Some peole on this board make it seem like public transit is the only way to get somewhere and if the subways had elevators, that 805 of the elderly and disabled would still not use the subway if measures were taken to make it easier for them to use.
The elderly which have varing abilities depending on age are very stuborn about thier independance. My dad is in his early 70's and takes the subway all the time. He is begining to have some troble with the steps. IF the issue of climbing steps was not an issue due to ADA complience, taking the subway vs taking the bus is a non issue.
As for the issue of walking extra blocks to thier destination. The current bus system does not cover every block, evry side block etc. Just as those who have trouble walking do now, they go where they are able to go. In this city where all of life's essentials are no more then a few blocks away this is not a majore hardship.
People make decisions such as choosing thier doctor based on acess. Those services as they do no try to be close to where people who use them can get to. Doctors who are businessman will move closer to where thier patients are
For those rare occasions where public transit is not convient, people now take cabs or access a ride. Nothing will change
Of course if you provide the service and the option people will make the option that is easiest for them. that does not mean that providing the duplicate service is needed. Those are two separate issues.
Take metrocard for example. Meterocard usage was no-existant prior to the free bus to train transfer and free rider at $15 offer. Many people would simply buy one or two tokens at at time causing the MTA to staff tooken booths far more. Based on your arguments, since the booths were heavily used, that would justify them being needed.
Make a change by providing an improved produt(the free ride and bus to train treansfer) and all of a sudden people fare buying habits change.
THe same thing would happen if the duplicate lines who run 85% above a subway line were scaled back, eliminated or were charged a premium fare AND ALL SUBWAY STATIONS ALONG THE LINE WERE ADA COMPLIENT THAT FEATURES THAT REMOVE OBSTICLES FOR SENIORS AND THE DISABLED.
I seem to remember hoopla that the elderly would not use metrocard. The MTA added elderly friendly feaures such as auto refilling subsription metrocard, metrocard bus etc.
Lets not forget that their is a large number of able bodied seniors who refuse to ride the subway because thier last memorries f the subway were the terrible hot and sticky, broken down dirty subway of the 70's 80's and early 90's. My mother is one of them. She has not been on the subway in two decades and swears to never ride again
Now if 3 Av could become 2 way again the Bx55 could start from 86th Street to Gun Hill Road being almost like the 3 Av el and giving extra service back to the Bronx
Currently the Lex Bus is needed due to Lex overcrowding. Lex overcrowding will not be an issue once secound ave subway is open.
The NIMBY you are taling about is the straphangers campaign who is a part of NIPIRG who are opposed to any changes. Straphangers and NYPIRG are experts in creating alarm and outrage in commuities through the use of misleading inuendo's often not backed up by a single fact.
The staion booth closing issues is a prime example. Another iisue is the whole roll back the fare hile issue.
Sometimes the experts need to make the tough decisions. Secound ave subway will be fully ada compient.
----
The NIMBY you are taling about is the straphangers campaign who is a part of NIPIRG who are opposed to any changes. Straphangers and NYPIRG are experts in creating alarm and outrage in commuities through the use of misleading inuendo's often not backed up by a single fact.
----
The NIMBY that I am referring to is the NIMBY that doesn't want any new els built, which would save the city LOTS of money.
The Lex bus does nothing worth mentioning to relieve Lex subway overcrowding. You could fit all the Lex bus passengers into 1 additional local train per hour, which could be deployed if desired.
The Lex bus is needed because it serves a different market of people who are not well served by the Lex subway. Try going from 36th and Lex to 11th St and 3rd Ave by subway; it's over half a mile of walking, while it's no walking by bus.
This notion that a bus rider and a subeay rider are two differnt consumers is not true. If all stations were ada complinet, the difference between the two riding groups are eliminated
If the secound ave subway was up and running, the rider would be better served by the secound ave subeway and one of the crosstown subeway lines or buses
I'd like to see the math that shows "easily...recovered in a rather short period of time." Just upgrading ONE station costs $10's of millions. Now, figure out what it takes to upgrade an entire line.
Yes, the ADA upgrades are needed anyway, and eventually we'll have them, but they have to compete with scarce capital dollars that are decked against other needed improvements. No one yet has shown that they pay for themselves, in terms of bus service that could be dropped in lieu of subway service.
One of the reasons that NYC is the most taxed place int he country is all the duplicate services that exists. It is a no brainer, build a better alternative(secound ave subway) eliminate the less effective service, the surface bus line. Anyone ever wonder why NYC has so little manufacturing, private sector jobs only exist becasue they HAVE TO BE HERE TO ATTRACT TALLENT. It is all the uneeded costs
Only in new york, build a better alternative, keep the old option
Another example is the roosevelt island tram. Why in the world did the MTA waste a ton of money to build a subway station if the tram was to stay. Make the right decision, close the tram or remove costs at the station such as the tooken booths. Riders could buy thier fare at the tram station, a local store or at the other end of thire ride
The RI tram is not an MTA facility. They have no authority to close it. If they were in charge of it, they would have closed it.
RI operating authority is a state agency. I was using RI tram as an example of how some groups don;t want any transit route or in this case tram to close whether duplicate or not and no matter the cost to the taxpayers or riding public
Ther people who live on RI have to pay higher taxes to keep the tram operating.
What about the B25 via Fulton, the A/C runs basically the entire length of the 25 but has strong ridership so would it be a good idea to let the trains replace it, I think not.
The example you give is one where the subways are already over-crowded, so the buses should not be eliminated. The issue is why provide a subsidized, duplicate service when and where the subways are NOT filled?
(Sorry but the whole premise is faulty. Buses and subways have different types of riders. More than half of the bus riders will resort to taking cabs. And all of the sudden you'll see the introduction of the illegal dollar vans in midtown!!! Vacuums must be filled!!!)
Again, we are not talking about Midtown, we are talking about trips within Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx in Northern Manhattan. There is plenty of capacity there, as long as people get off before going to Manhattan.
The government loses money on every bus ride, and there is only so much subsidy money to go around. Money used to subsidize bus lines paralell to the subway within 1/2 mile could also be used to improve the subway, or to provided more frequent bus service in locations the subway does not serve (ie. cross-town). If half the people switched the subway, the subway would carry more riders without more stations, track or sometimes even trains. If the other half refused to use the subway and used private vans along the now abandoned routes, that wouldn't cost the city any money either -- it would still be available for more bus service elsewhere or to improve the subway.
What do you suspect would become of Manhattan if bus routes M1/2/3/4/6/7/10/14/20/100/101/102/103/104 were canceled…? All of these run parallel to subway routes, but is everyone running downstairs to catch the train? I suspect not.
Even getting rid of the Q60 just because the 7 train runs along its route through Sunnyside and the E/F joins its route further east…? Or how about the Q32, which runs parallel to the 7 train for the vast majority of its Queens routing?
Come on…the MTA has just proven that they’re concealing profits in order to get a fare raise and more subsidy, why put more money into their pocket.
The MTA did not concel profits. The so called $600 in concealed profits were not operating profits and were clearly on all finacial statements. The money was proceeds for issueing new debt to pay off old debt. THe money was used to further pay doen debt due this year and next year
Some of the bus routes would remian. Many of the people would choose to use the subway.
Sure people will choose the subway over the bus but if you tried to eliminate that, people would get so angry and resort to other methods of public transportation. Also, if it is a route like the B25 for example. If you eliminated it, folks would use cabs or the dollar vans would jump right on it and create a new service via Fulton, getting extra money form what the MTA could of made. Another example is the Bx1/2, eliminate those and the B/D would be dangerously overcrowded.
Why, on three-track elevated lines, does the third (not the center) track always have a wood covering on the 3rd rail, while the other two always have plastic coverings? Is there any difference between the two?
The New York Central was using fiberglass covers on their third rail back in the late 1960's, before the merger with the PRR!!!!
Today I was driving north on Whitehorse Rd and passed a yellow Isuzu Vehi-Cross with PA plates reading "Flivver." The man driving it appeared to be of roughly middle age, and I know I've heard Flivver talked about in relation to the early subway cars. Could there be any relation between the Subway car and the license plate I saw?
That's not quite correct. The 1915 Steinway motors were the first
IRT cars with low-voltage control, although that was a fairly
small number of cars. The Flivvers had already been ordered and
were anticipated as high-voltage cars. It is possible (records
are not clear on this point) that the Flivvers were in fact
operated briefly as standard Hi-Vs. They certainly had the C18C
Hi-V style master controller and ME-21 brake valve. Testing of
the low-voltage equipment on the Steinways was successful, and
the IRT decided to either retrofit the Flivvers (assuming they
already had Type M hi-v control groups installed) or equipped those
that had not yet received groups with the new low-voltage groups.
The IRT, like many companies at the time, installed the
electrical equipment themselves.
Also, it should be pointed out that the BMT had a low-voltage subway
car in 1914 (the 67' steels). If you're willing to stretch a bit,
the BRT had low-voltage subway equipment as early as 1908 (?? when
did the Essex St. station open?) as all of the wooden elevated
cars had Westinghouse low-voltage control since ca 1900.
Jeff H: So the BRT El cars were converted to low-voltage around 1908?
Thats very interesting because the IRT Gate cars remained as high-voltage throughout there lives. Most of the MUDC conversions but a small number (100 +/-) were converted to low-voltage operation during the rebuilding.
Were any change made to the actual motorman's controls when the BRT Gates were converted to low-voltage that would be visible to a layman. I know that there are several examples of BRT equiptment at
Branford and that your quite familier with them.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
All of the BRT gate cars used Westinghouse control starting
about 1899, and it was always low-voltage. Some of the cars
in the 1898 pilot program had Sprague - GE MU control which
was high-voltage. These were changed in the early 00's to
be compatible with the rest of the fleet.
An innovative design that sank like a stone in the marketplace. What might have limited its appeal was the fact that the roofline was so low that entry and exit was very difficult for most people (I sat in one at a dealership once, so I know about this). Rear visibility also was very poor, so bad that some models sold in Japan actually had a CCTV system with a rear-facing camera and a screen on the dashboard.
#3 West End Jeff
1. Why do some M1/M3 cars still have a blue stripe on the side?
2. What M1 cars have left for scrap, or how many have left, and are they going to Mexico to be cut up?
3. How is it that the ACMU-1100 cars are still around after 47 years (and the BUDD M1s are being retired after only 30-32?
Thanks in advance for the answers.
2-No car has left Hillside yet, there is a long track that i pass every morning, that seems to get longer and longer by the week of junk M-1s on flatbeds waiting to go
3-The budds suck balls, thats why
WHAT?! The Budds in the NYC Subway (the R32 cars) are the best thing on the letter lines, aside from the new L trains. They are not rusting at all, and those cars are from 1964-5.
Peace,
ANDEE
R-32
Pick a railroad, 'cuz there's a difference here.
The LIRR got rid of most of the blue since they've got no paint shop. Some blue stripes are still on the sides of cars. There's at least one car (pair?) with a blue stripe on the front, where most cars now have that goofy safety yellow.
Metro-North hung on to the stripe, but even they have that new zebra scheme now.
Mark
CG
I hated it when I first saw it, but it's really grown on me since then.
Mark
I don't recallt hem ever being 5600 series....
There were 4500's (4500-4599)...built in the very early 1950's, had larger windows and single large headlamps.
Then there were 4600-4623 and 4700-4723 built in the very early 1960's, not sure if those are still around.
And then there was the 4730-up bunch built in 1965....which I am assumeing to be the ones that became the 1100's.
But I don't ever remember any 5600 series cars.
Both 4600 and 4700 series units are in service as there are 87 or so ACMU 1100's listed on the MNRR Roster
WNYC - Designing The High LIne
~Schist
(formerly known as 'wayne')
--Mark
So I'm guessing once the ROW is converted, it becomes city property, right?
It would fit in well with the Olympic transportation plan, and provide better transportation to an area that really needs it.
I have no doubt it would be difficult to get done for financial, political, and NIMBY issues--but is it technically feasable? It is a little neglected, could it handle subway traffic?
The 7's plans of being extended to the West Side are up at the MTA's website and outline no such possiblity. In other words, this proposal isn't even being considered.
The main problem is that the High Line is only 30-feet wide in most places. That's not wide enough to accommodate tracks plus platforms, so there'd have to be condemnation of property to construct the stations. It's fashionable to put community opposition under the head of "NIMBY," but sometimes that's the right answer. New York does not need an elevated line along the west side.
The proposed use of the High Line as a new pedestrian corridor is more practical. If the #7 is further extended, it should remain underground.
all in favor?
Some rail purists might not think that's such a great thing. It's kind of like an identity crisis. The LIRR is trying to reconcile running a subway against being a railroad.
The Babylon and Port Washington lines especially would probably benefit from being managed more like rapid transit.
I am a student with a monthly to zone 7 and lots of free time and a camera, I want to finish the LIRR section
Good luck!
Mark
I used to commute from Bay Shore into LIC in the mid-1960's!! I actually lived in Brightwaters at the time.
Trust me, the Redbirds will still be down there when you get back.
Reason I ask is because I purchased a RETAILER MetroCard today
(wrapper intact) WHICH TURNED OUT TO BE A FUN PASS DATED APRIL 4TH.
Yep.... An APRIL 4TH FUN PASS sealed fresh in a $10 MTA MC Wrapper.
ARE THE WRAPPED CARDS CLEANED OR SANITIZED IN ANY WAY???
For all we know WE (you or I) could be swiping with the very card
which could have been in Greenberger's back pocket just the week before
last.... or something TEN times worse...
ARE THE CARDS CLEANED OR DE-SANITIZED IN ANY WAY (if in fact they
are REFURBISHED/REPROGRAMMED and Re-Sold??)
Better Yet.......... HOW DA $#^#$ DID I WIND UP GETTING AN APRIL 4TH
FUN PASS CARD IN A FRESH MINT MTA $10 (supposed) WRAPPER???
1SF9
I MISS TOKENS!!
TOKENS SWEET TOKENS
Something sounds very fishy about that and I don't think the MTA had anything to do with it either.
SERIOUS!
--Mark
Where do you think the tokens were hanging out before you bought them? All sorts of places! And the Y-cuts in the old tokens were a great place to accumulate unsanitary grime.
Yeah, just think, the person before you could have fished the token out of the urinal at the old Coney Island men's room. I guess that goes for money too. Who knows where it's been before we get it. I think slimy Metrocards are probably the least of our problems.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Peace,
ANDEE
LOL... yep' nothing like SubTALK in the morning.. :)
---Choo Choo
For now, the card is off to 370 Jay St. in the provided mailer with
incident report including FULL seller address and contact info...
I'm considering a follow-up phone call to MTA MC Services in lieu to
the issue/unless they ring me first..
Thanks to all.... I'll report any outcome.
Being a fan of TOKENS, this REALLY makes me wanna go back... hehehe.
Thanks again!
1SF9
to be continued...
-Stef
http://www.purell.com/
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I've been a member of ERA for more years than I can count; and the New York Division since I learned that it wasn't restricted to New York area residents. I'm also a member of the Metropolitan Museum (are you listening, Pigs?), but that's off topic.
The chick that sang "Poetry Man" is still around?
www.forgotten-ny.com
No, and if you do not know what the Phoebe Snow Society is, you are probably not interested in it.
Tom
http://palter.org/~brotzman/03-20-03_LIRR_TRIP/
And thanks again to fellow SubTalker Bill Palter for the web space.
Included are pics of LIRR towers BROOK, DUNTON, JAY and QUEENS. The photos intitled BROOK, LIRR Tunnel Rats and LIRR Bender's Wisdom is what got me swarmed. Also included are make sharp and crips images of various LIRR rolling stock including DM-30's, M-7's, C-3's and MP-15's. If you don't believe me here are two teasers.
If you enjoyed these please click on the link and browse the rest. As always I always appriciate feedback or questions. These are lot all the pics, just the most interesting ones, if you want to see more tell me what you need and I'll see if I have it.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
If that's the case, then they go out every day during the AM and PM rush to sit just outside the tunnels to Penn in case something breaks down in the tunnel and needs to be pulled out.
Great photos JM. It's the first photo I've seen of "Boland's Landing" -- that's the employee only station in the 102/104/Dunton picture.
CG
Direct A service operates from Manhattan and Brooklyn to Far Rockaway, with passengers for Rockaway Park having to make a connection to the shuttle service at Broad Channel. Why is this the case? Why doesn't a reverse arrangement apply, with A service running directly to Rockaway Park at all times, with the shuttle operating from Broad Channel to Far Rockaway? I doubt it is due to terminal arrangement as a small number of peak hour trains run direct from Rockaway Park to Manhattan. Is it due to population density at Rockaway Park not justifying a direct service?
Thanks in advance.
Yes. The combined ridership of all the Rockaway Park stations is consdierably lower than that of any other line. My guess is Metropolitan Ave is next (which is why they only get a shuttle on weekends), then (in roughly this order) Dyre, Lefferts, Far Rockaway, and Sea Beach.
Other should be able to post precise numbers from paper documents.
The problem is that the A is not the best line to Manhattan, due to its winding route through Brooklyn, and long running times. Generally, the rule is this:
For downtown, use the Q35 (although most people use this as opposed to the other two)
For Peak Midtown, use the QM16. However, the service on this line is very scarse.
For other times, use the Q53 to woodside, then take the 7 or LIRR (most conductors dont even bother taking tickets at Woodside)
I think I should know this one (look at my handle)
Hmmm...I wonder which line has less ridership-Sea Beach or Rockaway Park?
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, except when they're actually stuck in those delays, when all I hear is, "F@!#$ MTA, and they want to charge $2 for this s&!%#..."
---Choo Choo
Any MYSTICAL Women in there???
---Choo Choo
#3 West End Jeff
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
The R-62's are slightly better off -- the windows across from the cabs can still be opened and the storm doors can be latched open on all cars.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
#3 West End Jeff
I tried this last year and made the "mistake" of using my real name, and never got any reply after I reported a hot car. But Bloomy did and got immediate results (and press, too, IIRC)
--Mark
---Choo Choo
David
(I don't know. I've never tried it.)
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I deliberately did not report it since I didn't want the car to be permanently removed from service.
I guess Mike Bloomberg rides the 7 on occasion, since the car has been removed from service.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/57506.htm
1-FARE RIDERS ARE OUT OF LUCK
By CLEMENTE LISI
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'JACKPOT'
A woman buys a single-ride MetroCard at the Bergen Street station in Brooklyn yesterday before the machine ran out, as is happening all over town.
Rick Dembow
May 9, 2003 -- Straphangers looking to buy single-trip MetroCards are being derailed because vending machines are quickly running out of the cards and tokens are no longer sold, The Post has learned.
Even since the fare went up to two dollars on Sunday, single-ride cards cannot be bought at manned station booths, so riders are being forced to buy higher-value cards from Transit Authority clerks.
In addition to single-ride cards, sales of $7 one-day Fun Passes are also restricted to MetroCard machines.
"There's a lot of activity at the machines, but people are not getting what they want," said a source.
The TA said it has sold an average of 90,000 single-ride cards a day since Sunday, up from 25,000 a day before the fare hike and before tokens were taken out of circulation.
Single-day cards are good for two hours after they are purchased.
The TA said single-ride cards account for a tiny fraction of overall sales and that this may be a "temporary problem."
"People are in the process of modifying their buying habits," said TA spokesman Charles Seaton. "We are trying to get the message out that multiday fares are a better bargain."
Another factor forcing riders to buy pricier cards is that station clerks have been ordered not to make change for straphangers with twenty-dollar bills who want to buy single rides at the machines.
"The riders are getting angry at the clerks for this and that's not fair," said John Mooney, a station agent. "We should be allowed to give customers what they want."
Meanwhile, the battle over whether to roll back the fare hike will be in court today when the Straphangers Campaign and the MTA face-off at a preliminary-injunction hearing.
Manhattan State Supreme Court Judge Louis York will explain he was unaware his wife made a $250 contribution last year to State Sen. Eric Schneiderman, a lawyer representing the watchdog group. The Post reported yesterday that Judith Bader-York had cut Schneiderman (D-Manhattan) a check during his successful re-election bid.
The Straphangers Campaign will argue the MTA misled the public with inaccurate information on agency finances before holding hearings on the increase.
Additional reporting by Marianne Garvey
---Choo Choo
One the aper is cheaoer
Two the paper cards come on a roll and can store more of them in a machine. The roll looks like a big roll of toliet paper.
The problem is that NYCT does not have a proper maintance schedule.
These machines should be taling to a central computer somewhere which could analyse the machines usage statistics and desing an apropiate maintance and refill schedule
The machines should be designed so that items such as adding metrocard feed stock, reciepts etc could be done withourt the need for an armed guares. In essense hte money portions of the machine be locked behind a secound door so that they basics could be added without the possiblilty that the machines money stores can be attacked
Soda and candy vending machines have been this way for years. So, I don't see what the problem is. If they did this then S/As could refill the MVMs. I don't know why they aren't already refilling the MEMs, since there is no cash in them.
Peace,
ANDEE
You write as long winded as he does.
I'm not defending it, just explaining why it works the way it does.
It is a bit rediculous to want to close booths and then don't make every effort to win the public over with keeping the machines filled with wah they need to serve the public
After all the MVM's ahve been deployed system wide for over 2 years and still they don't seem to know how to keep them filled
As you well know, usage patterns have changed dramatically in the past week. There weren't problems with the existing refill schedule under the old usage patterns. The refill schedule will need to be altered; I'm sure that they have made some adjustments in the refill schedule in anticipation of the pattern change, and I'm equally sure from what you are observing that the patterns will need further adjustment. Predicting human behavior is an inexact science at best, and obviously genus straphangerus newyorkus isn't behaving as predicted; not having single ride tickets as readily available, though, may result in conditioning the behavior of straphangerus newyorkus to use the more cost-effective multi-ride metrocards.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
--Mark
1)MVM refill schedules have not been sufficent. I have seen many MVM's out of one or two critical items such as change, bills hopper filled, single ride cards for 6 or more hours in a row. This has occured the past 3 weekends at herald square 34th street east entrance(an unmanned fare control most of the day). On 3 occasions prior to the fare increase, the MVM at 95th street on the R in Bay Ridge was lacking one or more item.
This has been occuring for the past year as more riders choose to use the faster, more flexible MVM's
2)Tookens have not been sold to riders for over 3 weeks now. Plenty of time for the mTA to collect the statistics from all it's MVM's, run it through a business intrligence package such as COgnos or Business Objests and come up with usage patterns
Can behavior trends of consumers be predicted to a fairly resonable degree over time. The answer is a resonding yes. The operations specialsts should have known there would be and increased demand at MVM's for single ride cards once the tooken was eliminated. They should have already known how many tookens are sold at each station at each part of the day and overprepared for the onsluaght until more data can be collected and better refill schedules prepared.
A reasonable estimate would be that 70% of all token sales are single ride sales.
The MTA is in the process of upgrading it;s communications netwrk to allow th e MVM's to report back to the central server it's cureent satistics and stats in real time. I have learned from a repitable source that this is not curreently deployed system wide hense the poor refill schedules and long times many MVM's are out of service.
In MVM should never be out of one or more items for more then an hour in any given day plus at leaste one MVM should always have all items available. This is a goal that could be achieved by the proper analisis of usage patterns. THIS NEEDS TO BE DONE BEOFRE ALL BOOTHS ARE PERMINATLY CLOSED and also to gain the publics trust
If you would listen to the TWU and the straphangers campaigh you would think the majority of the public prepfers to use a token booth. The opposit is true, most prefer the MVM's but are the MTA inablility to keep properly stocked is a major issue
I'd like to see some evidence for this--it does not sound plausible. Most riders in the system are regulars, and regulars generally do not purchase their rides one at a time, because: A) It's a pain to go to a machine on every visit to the subway; and B) Even the most dimwitted rider will quickly figure out that it's worth a $10 investment to get the 20% discount.
As to the small percentage of total rides that were paid by tooken, 70% is a good guestimate as to those who purchaces only one one ride. That number plus the current single ride sales number for a particular fare control is a good esimate of the total number of single riders per hour and per day at a particular fare control. Until more accurate numbers are obtained and a precise trend can be established the MTA should have made sure at least 120% of the above caluclated figure of single ride cards were available at the MVM. 129% because you need to calculate that there wil not be even distribultion of riders purcahasing single rides at each MVM in a particular fare control
the other 30% of tooken sales came from those regualar riders who refused to use metrocard. Those Regualr subway riders who purchaces multiple tookens at a time would not be purchacing single rides from a MVM. The number is high because these riders tend to buy 5-10 tookens at a time
In the first few weeks of the new policy there are sure to be many dimwitted morons who still do not see the value of spending %10 to ger a 20% discount.
Remember there were reports that people did not know the fare was going up at all. there are people lost in space
You can throw it away after six uses.
---Choo Choo
P.S. When riding Redbirds sb through there, I seem to remember hitting a higher exit speed.
--Mark
That's the railfan window at the opposite end of the train, i.e. looking back at where you have just been, as opposed to looking forward to where you soon will be. The anti-railfan window get's much less respect and recognition than it deserves. I try to ride it and promote it as often as I can.
---Choo Choo
--Mark
Not "anti-railfan" window -- anti-"railfan window."
The window at the rear end of the train.
---Choo Choo
Hey, "anti-railfan window" already has one hyphen, and one is enough. Don't be bringing another hyphen to the party.
---Choo Choo
EXAMPLE:
You or someone else says they saw something and post the car # and time. Someone in management sees this and looks up the train register sheets and sees what T/O or C/R was on the train. He now has a TSS follow this crew looking for something to get them on.
Understand now?
----Choo Choo
I've enjoyed a ride on a Slant 40 on the L line with the T/O pushing every red light as we went under the East River. I'm sure the T/O isn't supose to anticipate the red going to yellow to the point of being within feet of the red signal at 40 MPH ... so I wouldn't post the car number or precise time.
I believe the posted speed in that area is 40mph. I usually take it at around 37-38. Some T/O's, especially those not familiar with that area, will take a little bit of brake because it's a sharp curve, and you have timers just beyond that area.
Could you please find out for me?
I usually take it at around 37-38.
Are you a 2/3 T/O? Are you? If you are, oh man, you must have the time of you're life when you're flying up and down between Chambers and 96 St! Please tell me that it is a lot of fun and that you always try to squeeze the maximum speed out of the cars between Chambers and 96 St. Pretty please!
Some T/O's, especially those not familiar with that area, will take a little bit of brake because it's a sharp curve, and you have timers just beyond that area.
I wouldn't call it a "sharp" curve. I'd call it a curve that was designed for much, much higher speeds.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I'm not very familiar with that area of express track between 14th and Chambers. When I became a T/O, the 1 and 2 were both going to Brooklyn, making all local stops in Manhattan. So I rarely saw the express tracks. The 3 was terminating at 14th, so I never saw the express track south of 14th.
I am having the time of my life as a T/O. Good pay. Good people. Everything has been going well for me.
a great DOT enforcer by putting up bus accident prints
Um, that accident was well recorded by officials at the scene. What was wrong with my photos?
he doesn't know there in fact IS a 40 MPH speed limit at that curve as determined by the fixed Miscellaneous sign north of the station in question
Well now I do. Thank you for telling me. Maybe I would have known had there been more railfan window eqipped cars running on the line. Don't blame me with all those blind New Tech's running through there. And finding a (3) with a railfan window at the front of the train requires waiting and sometimes even more waiting.
because he is lost in the "argument" and far from reality, and has a fixation on ambulance chasing instead of investigation.
I don't want any arguments. Since when do I argue? Maybe if you'd come on one of my or Peggy's subway events you'd meet me and you'd see what I'm really like.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
'Shoe Beam speaks many truths and wisdom!
We ALL need to practice better judgement in public forums.
Self included.
Back 30+ years ago when *I* did my TA stint, there were some morons in management just WAITING for the opportunity to climb up someone's butt. But the railroad itself was SO screwed up, we all tended to watch out for one another and let things slide ... not so any longer, paranoia seems to be the way of life now.
I know ya meant well, but putting details out there for the beakies is just something that would cause more problems than good because of the CULTURE of the TA these days. If you appreciate what crews do, let then know quietly and in person, but otherwise it's best not to draw attention to them. Unless of course, they appear to be a danger to the public. In a situation like THIS, call them in downtown.
I know shoebeam and I respect him greatly. One of the MAJOR reasons why you don't hear dishy stories out of crews any longer here is that so many seemingly innocent comments by foamers have soured them to no end, and many have gotten in serious trouble JUST for having their interval identified. Unfortunately, with the MTA being the way it is, there's just no good that could come of it. :(
It's best to just not give ANY details, no matter what the situation unless you observe something dangerous to the public ... then the proper thing to do is drop dime quietly. Like I said, I know you MEANT well but unless you've been on the inside, you may never realize how a compliment can turn into a disaster for the person you intended to pat on the back ... MTA's like that, as are other agencies.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I guess I'm old school. When I was a kid in the 50's and 60's, the motormen and women would often leave the cab door open so's I could take in what they were doing. Foamer glass was HUGE and plentiful and best of all, if the train was empty or near empty, I even got the chance to pull handles under "supervision" on a REAL train. When I got my handles, I would do what I could when there was a kid interested in how it worked, would leave the door as far open as practical if it was safe to do so and let them watch me "work it." IMAGINE what they'd do to me NOW if I was still there to do it. :(
When I came to the city for Christmas, got some cab time on a 143 as a favor from some friends who shall remain nameless, but since left the TA. Some pictures of us in the cab were posted to a railfan site. There was an IMMEDIATE investigation since the Governor didn't get an invite for cab time until three weeks later and was in the papers. The "second floor" was LIVID and some heads almost rolled until I pulled some political strings. That resulted in a bulletin instead of people getting time on the street for the situation.
But it would be VERY helpful if railfans would sit and THINK ... if you ENJOY something, the last thing you would want to do is disrepect the occasional treat by CHITTING on those who gave you your treat, your rare photo, your rare story ... and yet there's so many that JUST don't get it. The subways and those who work on them work for POLITICIANS. Politicians LOVE to demonstrate their control and authority by roasting stomachs in hell. And that means the poor bastard hourlies who just happened to be nearby or are SUSPECTED of being nearby.
Damned shame people don't understand that ... all of us who ever got PAID for handle time just want to do our runs and go home without having to worry what some "foamer" might do to us without even thinking.
To "buffs," ENJOY the ride ... enjoy the rare treat, ZIP IT. :)
BTW: 239th is 'Rooskie Free' save two of my crew buddies. They were smart...everyone else moved to Coneys Island Overhaul. Closer to home but 'Salt mine production line' work rebuilding trucks and the like. Guess they don't like being 'home again.' (Volga Boat Song.)
Sorry to hear your buddies hit the silk, but can't see as how I'd blame them. I signed up for a pick on the D train since I lived at 205th Street. TA always had a sense of humor though. Had to sign in at Stillwell for BOTH half-shifts. When a pick comes that puts you near home and the work is with more familiar and easy to do stuff, they'd have to be INSANE not to pick out.
And I can imagine their reaction - have fun, genius, with your Kursks on wheels. Spasiba! Dosvidanya! :)
Let's just say that folks from the old "Soviet Union" are amused by us Americans ... :)
Ice it, brah. We can ALL LEARN from our past wrongdoings.
And what specifically would be the reason for adding that information? Your post adequately described what happened, and none of us need to know the car number or time of day to appreciate what you have written. Every T/O who takes that curve aggressively can think he/she may be the one you are referring to, and know that at least one rail fan appreciates that style of operating.
If someone in management identified the T/O from your information, he/she might be considered a "hot dog" and have it held against him/her in the future.
Tom
I would think that not braking through the curve IS normal. It was certainly designed for much higher speeds due to the banking.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
If it is normal, why did you post anything at all about it? And you failed to respond to my query about what posting identifying information (car number, time of day) would add to what you posted.
Tom
Where exactly is the gift shop and would the Shuttle or the 7 bring me closer to the store ?
Thanx in advance for any help.
Walk toward the front, and go up the stairs (not the passageway in the middle). Exit the turnstiles and go to your left. You'll pass a Rite-Aid and a bookstore. The TM Gift Shop will be on the left.
Walk toward the front, and go up the stairs (not the passageway in the middle). Exit the turnstiles and go to your left. You'll pass a Rite-Aid and a bookstore. The TM Gift Shop will be on the left.
And of course we will recognize Salaam by the hard hat and reflective vest. Maybe I should bring an autograph pen in case people mistake us for the Village People. :-)
Tom
Alas, I have no transit related shirt, but I could wear the classic "No Justice, No Peace" T Shirt.
Tom
--Mark
Bah Fongool!! (Never learnt how to spel.)
No such thing as an ugly Italian! :-)
You wanna see ugly, wait till *I* get there Saturday morning!!
-Robert King
By the way it's the Baltimore Streetcar Museum.
Training class is being conducted (that's School Car for the subway types), so some cars (two-man are out.
I'll be there around 10:00 AM
You can call our Information Line at 410-547-0264 and get info on Hours and Admissions, Directions to the Musuem and Special Events.
http://www.baltimoremd.com/streetcar/
Peace,
ANDEE
People who have seen the show firsthand, this writer included, have come away from the production with strong, even passionate, feelings about the subject matter and the show's backers, NYCT and the MTA.
"The Borough Hall Escalator Show" is playing 24 hours a day at the Borough Hall station of the west side IRT line. You can't miss it - even if you try.
---Choo Choo
Would it be ok if I added that to a new section of my website for subway humor?
---Choo Choo
Nice job.
---Choo Choo
Coming soon to the Food Network: How to Best Flavor a Cooked Book, starring none other than Peter Kalikow (with supervision provided by Emeril Lagasse)!
Cooking the Books... how to get your public REALLY hot and spicy over
your latest dish... without dishing the DIRT on how you cooked it!
Lawrence Reuter: Host
Paul Fleuranges: PR
Good one. :)
My version of the chorus:
------------------------
I'm sorry 'hanger,
Didn't mean to hurt you,
Didn't mean to make you cry,
But tonight, I'm fixing my escalator.
One more time.
I'm sorry 'hanger,
Didn't mean to hurt you,
Didn't mean to make you climb,
But tonight, I'm fixing my escalator.
----------------------------------------
Hmmm, I like this. Maybe over the weekend I'll write up more lyrics that go along with this song.
---Choo Choo
Live theater? huh? Where are the cameras?
Was the "problem" rectified? Or did they just give up?
CG
I want to know why NYCT can't duplicate the results at Broadway Junction: of the three escalators, at least two are almost running, and I think I've always seen at least one going up.
It goes up until it stops. Some ass-clown always has to push the damn button...they should be arrested for that. Imagine, smoothly riding up the escalator...and then it comes to a grinding halt. Used to happen every other day...but hasn't in a while. Maybe they've finally cracked down on those who were doing it.
Is this produced by the same folks that gave us the 161st-River Ave. escalator saga ?
Bill "Newkirk"
You should be doing this for a living.
I don't think anyone could WRITE one better if they tried! Someone mentioned taking this show on the road. Who plays Peter Kalikow and Lawrence Reuter though?
How about "The Wild Walls of Wilson"? I gotta go out tommorrow (err....today...it's 3AM?!) just to take a picture of the 3 holes in the wall. You could fit a person through one of them! And the lower level is both extremely beautiful (mosaics) and disgusting (coated in urine and dried-up rainwater) at the same time.
You could fit a person through one of them! And the lower level is both extremely beautiful (mosaics) and disgusting (coated in urine and dried-up rainwater) at the same time.
If Atlantic Av on the Q wasn't fixed, it'll be "The Mystery of the Missing Wall Tile. Ok to your subject DTrain22, that is EVEN worse than a unkept subway bathroom my goodness :-0.
I nominate the "Sea Beach Comedy", it looks at the ENDLESS decline of the Sea Beach and certain Subtalkers [YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE ;-)] endlessly cracking on it ranging from the long gone NX to the deactivated track to the stations being in horrible shape. This is a critically acclaimed "show" and is made possible by the unnamed Subtalkers [again, YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE ;-)]. Someone even went as low to suggest callng it the S for shitty, how cold.
You guys will automatically received your updated copies via email when I complete the fourth chapter in the next two to three weeks as will those who had responded to the first few threads I posted.
New respondees include as of 4/17/03
CC Local
CPCTC
Kool D
Mike
New respondees as of 4/28/03
boriqua
Michael Calcagno
So are there any more takers? Anyone else who wants to read good original transit ficition? This will eventually be put in a website, but will be at least a year or two from now, as I have to complete the other 3 chapters and compose maps, drawings and sketches for the website version. The text version would be ready much sooner.
I've already emailed those listed above for dates the documents will begin to be sent out. Tomorrow I will post that message again for others to view.
Again, those of you who hadn't seen or read the first few threads, you still have time to request a copy.
Remember you can also email me privately for a request.
Dwayne Crosland
Xtrainexp.
Thank you.
---Choo Choo
It's developing into a book if that's what you mean. I have completed over 400 pages so far.
"I clicked on them once or twice over the last few months, and after not seeing any explanation about what your huge post was about..."
That may have been why the response level wasn't as high, not that it wasn't good. This time around, the response level is an improvement over last year's group.
I'm glad you responded and I'm sure that you will like it even though it is quite involved. Wait until you read Chapter five on rolling stock, since I know you like Redbirds, and there are lot of birdies that still live on.
THE SECOND AVENUE SUBWAY
Founded by 1927 (and still playing ever since), it is the saga about bureaucrats trying to plan (and failed) a subway line running underneath Second Ave in the Borough of Manhattan. Witness, the Gilloutine act, last used in 1975 during the Fiscal Crisis. Be shocked as we introduce the newest act "The Newest Engineering Study". Marvel as we try to find a new shovel to start the digging process again. Discover new horizions as we take you a tour at the unfinished tunnel sections in the 100's. Laugh (and cry) at Republicians and Democrats fighting each over as to how much Federal and State funding should go to the pre-production of the upcoming sequel: "The Building of The Second Ave Subway".
FREE TICETS NOW AVAILABLE:
Step right up ladies and gentlemen, come get your free tickes for Act MMMMDCXXXII, shows taking place on Monday 5/12 at 4 PM at Bowling Green and at 5/13 at East Harlem. Limited time offer so please hurry in.
But you can't have four M's next to each other in a Roman numeral (M) and do they even have a D? Did you mean L?
John
Too bad I can't go.
I picture people with bloodshot eyes and drool from their mouths to their keyboards as they type this stuff. This is sorta getting a little redundant though.
WAAAAUUUGGGGHHH!!!!!!!!! I WANT 2ND AV SUBWAY NOW, OR I WILL BEGIN BREAKING THE MTA!
Mark
We also looked at University Crossings, a nearly unmistakable old building at 33rd and Market, it's a white, high rise apartment building (14 or 15 floors IIRC) just south of North and East Hall. That place would have been excellent, just steps from some classes, PLUS (assuming once again that we got an east side Apt), views of all 30th St station to the north, including glimpses of Amtrak's yard. Unfortunately this place, despite being newly renovated with A/C, and all was about 1800 bucks, well outside the price range of 3 or 4 college sophomores.
Sadly reality has struck us hard, now we're looking more for economy, with one person suggesting the Northeast as a possible location. If that happens I'm off to see Drexel housing again and beg for a dorm, cause I AIN'T commuting to West Philly from the Northeast. The best place we had was at 48th and pine, only the 34 trolley a couple blocks to the south, but man, 775 a month for a place that by all rights could be called a 4 bedroom apt. But we lost that one because we had our thumbs up our asses with the northeast question, and now we're back at square one...
You wouldn't happen to know if that Woodland Terrace has any apartments, would you? It'd be great to have a subway outside the door, even if I'm not looking at it.
Sorry bout the story of my last 6 months, and thanks
I wish I could be more help. This is a great neighborhood for lots of reasons, good railfanning just one of them.
Mark
But I'm 150' from the Metrolink/Amtrak/BNSF San Diego line. And my bedroom doesn't ever rumble when the train goes by (in fact, I don't even hear them...they are that quiet!!)
Mark
Me too. It's called Second Avenue Maybe you've heard of it?
...grumble groan...
Mark
The view I sure miss from the roof:
Mark
If I choose to go to San Diego, I almost always use the train as I can get around down there easily on the trolley to the places I go to. Same thing for going up to LA, I never drive if I can avoid it. Traffic out here is just such a pain in the arse...
Looking forward to the meet!
Do you need anything from this area???
Steve and Salaam;
E-mail me so we can exchange cell phone numbers to keep in touch in case of any last minute delays or changes of plan.
Tom
San Diego
La Jolla
Carlsbad Village
Solana Beach
Del Mar
Del Mar
Oceanside
Solana Beach
Freight (real freight, not the joke we have on Long Island)
Del Mar
Solana Beach
...And La Jolla...just picture walking with your girlfriend here with the beach on one side and the tracks on the other. (sorry the scan is dark-the original slide is much better-some of my older photos are slides, and my scanner doesn't always scan them well).
What's that bridge in the background of the 2nd one?
If one wants to see some real heavy freight action, when in the San Diego area, all one has to do is ride the Pacific Surfliner up to Fullerton where the trains begin using the BNSF mainline for the remainder of their journey into Los Angeles. There is more freight action in Fullerton in one half hour than the LIRR sees in a year.
Besides the 20 daily Amtrak trains, there are about 24 daily Metrolink trains through there. And over 100 BNSF road freights a day. Trains go through there about every 10-15 minutes on the average....all with 3 or 4 heavy road locos (Dash 9-44CW's are predominant on BNSF). Oh, and the daily round trip of the Amtrak Southwest Chief, too....westbound around 7:30 a.m. or so, eastbound late in the evening. Fullerton is paradise....plenty of rail action, restrooms available, parking available, and plenty of places to eat all within one block of the station area.
Oh, and the police never bother anyone sitting around there photographing trains.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I agree with all here that San Diego is a great place to watch trains. I love the route of the Coaster and the Amtrak Surfliner which goes not only along the beach but through a beautiful green canyon just north of the city.
I disagree with the thougth on the weather. I've been there twice in the Spring and it was really cold both times. (A small price to
pay for such good railfanning.)
Mark
As for the BNSF San Diego yard, do you have any of your photos posted online? The photos I took there didn't come out quite right.
Mark
You must have gotten really (un)lucky to get that cold weather -- I go down to San Diego all the time (it's only 80 miles away from where I live) and it's always either nice and mild or a tad warm. And out to friends' places 15 miles inland, when it's warm in San Diego, it can be blazing. (La Mesa/Spring Valley area)
As for the yard in San Diego, it looks like one big yard, but it actually is two yards -- separated, of course, by Harbor Drive. The "shore" side yard is, of course, the BNSF. The "inland" side of Harbor Drive was the former San Diego and Arizona Eastern (Southern Pacific) but is now San Diego and Imperial Valley and the Trolley. Coaster uses the SDIV yard for mid-day storage of two or three train sets that do not stay in off-peak service.
At one time, before Coaster's facility was built north of Oceanside at Stuart Mesa, they would run the Coaster train sets right down the San Diego Trolley line late at night to have periodic inspections performed by SDIV personnel at their San Ysidro shop near the border. To this day, SDIV does repainting of Amtrak cars under contract, and they have to be hauled down the trolley's tracks at night by the SDIV switcher. (They also did one of the Coaster cab cars recently after it was in a grade crossing accident -- so now there is ONE shiny clean Coaster car in the whole fleet.)
I thought that yard looked like it was divided into different sections for different trains.
Mark
The Amtrak F40's are GONE.
They now run F59PHI's.
The Amfleet cars are GONE.
They've been replaced with the beautiful Pacific Surfliner sets.
The ex-Metroliner cab cars are GONE.
The Pacific Surfliner sets have their own cab cars that match the trains....they are the coach/baggage cars.
The grade crossing in Solana Beach is GONE.
The whole station is down in a cut below ground level, has been so for at least two years now.
While the surf line offers many scenic views int he San Diego area, there's also (within a couple hours) Cajon Pass, Tehachapi, and San Timoteo Canyon. Non-stop freight action on heavy mountain grades, day and night -- and beautiful scenery in those places as well!
1997 Solana BEach
2001 Solana Beach
Yes, and those Surfliners are beautiful. I still couldn't believe all the changes in just a few years. Just 10 years ago F40's was the Amtrak standard.
I rode through Cajon Pass and Fullerton, but unfortunately did not have time to stop then....one day though......
Of course, it was sub-leased to me for 1 year while family friend went out of country for 1 year. If they moved out completely, I would've taken over and I could set up Webcams from bedroom window including thousands of pictures and probably will never move out (LOL!)
Michael Calcagno
--Mark
Did he see you taking it? :-)
Tom
--Mark
I assume they're referring to the Shop Rite by the Avenue I Station of the Culver Line. In which case the only way you could get to "the city" in 20 minutes is maybe by HELICOPTER from the roof of the Shop Rite to the lower tip of Manhattan.
If the 57th st/7th Ave station is closed, where will the Q terminate? This is the same problem back in February.
They didn't do a Q advisory. That is where they goofed. The R/W advisory looks OK to me.
The S/B platform was closed at 57/7 during that G.O.
Chuck Greene
My deepest condolences to you and your family.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Then again, I may sneak the PATH trip after we are finished with the IRT Sunday trip.
I hope to SMEE you there too.
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
Perhaps some of you would take us a few steps further to solve our mystery. Here is the story as it stands--now that you have shown us what could NOT have happened:
What we do know is that in 1928 Dad's friend came to New York and got a job working in downtown Manhattan. The story goes that he went to the same station every day for a week or so and always caught the same train home to his apartment on East 72nd Street.
One day he was running late, and we know he mistakenly got on a wrong train at the same station. The information you all have given us tells us he could not have been riding the el and have accidentally gotten onto a subway in Manhattan--so probably his mistake took place from subway to subway--not from el to subway.
We know he went under the East River. The story goes that Dad's friend was reading his paper and was startled because "it got dark, and the lights came on." That is the part of the story that made us think the guy had been riding an el all this time and was startled to experience his first trip through a tunnel on a subway! But surely it would have been dark and lights would have been on in any subway trip? Can you tell us if there would be any tell-tale sensations for a subway rider experiencing his first trip through a tunnel under the East River? We know he went under the East River--the point of the story always was that Dad's friend was whisked through a tunnel under the East River and was totally surprised. Maybe a tunnel is not darker than the average sub-terranian subway routes? Maybe it has some other unique sensation--like sounds. or change in grade of the tracks? We may need to adapt these details in the story to match reality.
We know he found himself in Brooklyn. (...where he took another train in hopes of returning to Manhattan, but ended up somewhere else in Brooklyn, so did manage to catch a train that took him back to his original spot in Brooklyn...within sight of the Brooklyn Bridge.) Perhaps this could have been the DeKalb Avenue station?
We know that at this point Dad's friend got off the subway, climbed up to ground level, and looked across the East River at lower Manhattan. He asked a stranger, "How can I get over there!!!"
The stranger showed him where he could catch a trolley that would take him over the Brooklyn Bridge back to lower Manhattan. And he did. Does this sound possible? Would he have been able to see either the East River or the Brooklyn Bridge from the DeKalb Street station?
While we are in the company of so many who know about subway history, let us check on another detail. The story was that Dad's friend "put his nickle in the turnstile" each time he got on one of these trains. Did a person get on a train and just ride as far as he liked for his nickle? He did not have to pay another nickle until he got onto another train? And was there a "turnstile"? If not, where did he place his nickle?
Thank you all for your time and interest. We cannot believe so many answers can be tapped from so far back in time without our even being able to visit New York!
Mike and Carolyn
We know he went under the East River. The story goes that Dad's friend was reading his paper and was startled because "it got dark, and the lights came on." That is the part of the story that made us think the guy had been riding an el all this time and was startled to experience his first trip through a tunnel on a subway! But surely it would have been dark and lights would have been on in any subway trip? Can you tell us if there would be any tell-tale sensations for a subway rider experiencing his first trip through a tunnel under the East River? We know he went under the East River--the point of the story always was that Dad's friend was whisked through a tunnel under the East River and was totally surprised. Maybe a tunnel is not darker than the average sub-terranian subway routes? Maybe it has some other unique sensation--like sounds. or change in grade of the tracks? We may need to adapt these details in the story to match reality.
We know he found himself in Brooklyn. (...where he took another train in hopes of returning to Manhattan, but ended up somewhere else in Brooklyn, so did manage to catch a train that took him back to his original spot in Brooklyn...within sight of the Brooklyn Bridge.) Perhaps this could have been the DeKalb Avenue station?
We know that at this point Dad's friend got off the subway, climbed up to ground level, and looked across the East River at lower Manhattan. He asked a stranger, "How can I get over there!!!"
Why would he have not simply gotten back on the subway???
I'm thinking of the outside possibility that he began from City Hall and got on a Brooklyn Bridge BMT train instead of an uptown IRT train at the adjacent stations. It would have gotten dark when his train entered Sands Street station (partly covered) on the Brooklyn side of the bridge. But if he got off there he would have gone down, not up, to the street. He would have seen Brooklyn Bridge from this location and also have been able to get a trolley back to Manhattan.
The stranger showed him where he could catch a trolley that would take him over the Brooklyn Bridge back to lower Manhattan. And he did. Does this sound possible? Would he have been able to see either the East River or the Brooklyn Bridge from the DeKalb Street station?
No, he couldn't have seen Brooklyn Bridge from DeKalb. He probably couldn't have seen the Manhattan Bridge either because he view would have been obstructed by the Myrtle Avenue el.
While we are in the company of so many who know about subway history, let us check on another detail. The story was that Dad's friend "put his nickle in the turnstile" each time he got on one of these trains. Did a person get on a train and just ride as far as he liked for his nickle?
Yes.
He did not have to pay another nickle until he got onto another train? And was there a "turnstile"? If not, where did he place his nickle?
Depending on the date, probably.
The story is improbable as stated. Having done some number of interviews in historical research, I can tell you that perfectly competent people make errors in remembered stories, as to time, place, and details. Stories get mixed, one with another. Ask any husband and wife (separately) to describe a shared event. ;-)
The more I think of it, Either this has been a trick question or something important was omitted from the original question.
Any underwater tunnel trip causes a change in air pressure, similar to riding a skyscraper elevator, which causes one's ears to "pop" a little - which makes a person swallow to alleviate the problem.
Did a person get on a train and just ride as far as he liked for his nickle? He did not have to pay another nickle until he got onto another train? And was there a "turnstile"?
That nickle fare would allow a person to ride theoretically forever, as long as he/she did not exit the system. You do not (and still don't) lose your initial fare until you leave the fare control (within the turnstiles). You can change to train after train after train at designated free transfer points and not lose your initial fare until you exit through a turnstile or adjacent gate. Once you leave another nickel would be necessary to re-enter at the same station or any other station.
Something is missing in this puzzle. When did this person get on the train? We know he was going to 72 Street. But when did he get on the train in the first place? Either I missed something entirely. Or this has been a trick question.
I may plan a future trip based on this information.
Some subways have windows into the cab where you can see through that to the front, but that's mainly in the US only (Atlanta, Chicago, DC...).
Also Baltimore and Miami (same model of cars) and Los Angeles Red Line (similar interior layout to Baltimore/Miami cars).
Mark
At least the R142s and R143s still have a window in the cab door. It could be a lot worse. London's Underground trains have just a peephole and Montreal's Metro trains have nothing at all.
Peace,
ANDEE
The way I've seen it is that the trains are always full length and only the first and last cars have the cabs.
I was watching a tape just the other day (Ron Carson's Traction Update 1997) that had a segment about a train that was running on the San Diego - LA route. I think it was the test train from Denmark that they were evaluating for high speed service (I had the sound off so I didn't hear the commentary).
The cars mate together with fat rubber seals and a passageway in the middle. The front end of the train looks just like the ordinary end of a car, with the rubber seal and a door with a window in the middle. But the door is actually the front wall of the engineer's cab! Normally the engineer sits right behind the window, with the controls built into the door in front of him. To add another car to the front of the train, you open the door and swing it around so the controls and the seat tuck into a recess in the side of the passageway.
Actually, quite a few subways abroad have center seating for the T/O. Some of the self-propelled cars over there, like the Bombardier Talent and Siemens Desiro, also have center seating with a glass partition behind it and a curtain for privacy, but that probably wouldn't work on a brightly-lit subway train that spends much of its time underground.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
London's DLR has full width railfan windows in the front car (it is driven by computer, so no need for a T/O or cab). Your only problem will fighting off all the kids who "want to drive".
Although mostly an elevated system, there are two significant subway sections (Bank to Shadwell, Mudchute to Greenwich). David Pirman has a good photograph taken through the front-window in one of those sections here.
I'd like to call it a bathroom that has not been serviced.
Show me a subway restroom with toilet paper, toilet seats, soap and paper towels and I'll show you the Second Ave subway running !
Bill "Newkirk"
Was there a day game at Yankee Stadium? Maybe there was a rush of trains to pick people up after the game.
Under the plan passed by the state legislature.
-- Our property taxes are up 18 percent.
-- The local personal income tax (bet you don't have one) will be going to 4.25 percent.
-- The state personal income tax top rate will be going to 7.5 percent.
-- The combined state/local sales tax will be going to 8.65 percent.
-- The transit fare is going up by 33 percent this year (or more than that next year).
-- State university tuition is going up about 33 percent.
-- Garbage pickup one day a week.
-- Firehouses closing.
-- Class sizes rising.
-- 4,000 layoffs, more to come.
-- 6.5 percent water and sewer rate increase.
-- Brooklyn and Queens zoos closing (somehow we could pay for those for 100 years, but not now).
-- Libraries open five days per week, at most.
That's the "liberal" plan. The Governor proposes fewer tax increases, but even more draconian service cuts. No reductions in Medicaid reimbusements, and no public employee union givebacks imposed, in either plan, though the Governor would take Medicaid services away from people.
Mayor Bloomberg claims people shouldn't flee soaring taxes and collapsing services, because they'll find it wherever they go. True.
But hey, at least GE don't have to dredge the Hudson anymore.
You aren,t even close to California, where no one believes there is any chance of a balanced budget. It has been said that the California deficit ($35 Billion) exceeds the total budget of some of the other states.
Tom
On rail related, I understand that Yonkers Kawasaki is closing, and Bombardier is about to fold upstate, jobs to go to those morally superior RED states ... new improved RED states, now with 100% pure fundamentalist moral fiber. Disregard that blowhard behind the curtain. If *I* was governor, I'd be cancelling some train orders about now and seeing about getting the state into the REFURBISHING business. Then again, we'd have a budget too. :)
I've heard nothing like that. Bombardier might fold because they lost the contract -- they have plants elsewhere for other contracts. Didn't hear anything about Kawasaki.
Neither plant should have existed in the first place. It's only because the idiots in Albany demanded that the new MTA orders be made in New York that Kawasaki opened in Yonkers and Bombardier in Plattsburg. Both could have used existing plants elsewhere to produce better cars at lower cost.
Truth be told, it was Upstate that got nailed in the base closings. NYC NIMBY's would never allow an AFB. But Upstate did get some of that good defense money, and losing it hurt.
Yes, the Mayor's NON-DOOMSDAY budget eliminates funding for the Brooklyn and Queens Zoos, which would be closed. The NY Wildlife Conservation society has already taken a deposit from me for a zoo camp for my two children. Let's see if I get my money back.
Truly sad though what municipalities all over the state (and to a lesser degree in other states) are being put through in order to further feather the nest eggs of Enron, WorldCon and Halliburton. People be damned. :(
1. Medicaid restructuring.
2. All monies collected IN NYC actually go back to NYC. The State pilfers money from the City every year in one of the most uneven partnerships I've ever seen.
All you damn republicans out there need to tell your party leaders to give the money back to the city. Republicans seem to think that NYC is a cow.
Northeastern Liberal Democrats: We want to spend!
Suburban and Sunbelt Republicans: We don't want to.
Northeastern Liberal Democrats: How about a compromise?
Suburban and Sunbelt Republicans: Okay, we get most of the money, you pay most of the taxes, and we blame you for them.
Northeastern Liberal Democrats: Deal! After all, all the leaders of are party are from states that get out more than they pay in too, even though the states that elect most of our representatives are in the ripped off states.
Look for another fare hike next year, or in 2005. It's a virtual certainty. NYC has it easy, the last couple of years, mostly because the GOP wanted to see if, by the miracle of gods, Giuliani was somehow able to turn the city around so that GOP would have a fair shot of getting NYC's vote. Now that it's clear that he didn't, it's time to bend over again.
My last off-topic post for the day was initially much longer, but I decided to cut it short and to the chase. The NY Times reference reminded me of their slobbering, predictably stupid review of Allen Steele new sci-fi book, "Coyote". Asimov's monthly published the story, in small chunks, for two years before it came out in book form. Anyone who read it in Asimov's could've easily predicted the NY Times' guaranteed puff piece. Can't really have any other outcome when the centerpiece of the story is a portrayal of a brutal, Nazi-like dictatorship of future Earth, "The United Republic Of America", complete with imperial spaceships that carry names like "USS Jesse Helms."
NYTimes glowing review of this book-length version of Michael Moore's Oscar speech definitely redefined the meaning of "stupid".
Walked over to the car, and asked a very pretty female cop what was going on. (Had my BSM lineman's badge on my cap). She replied that the Bomb Squad was investigating a "suspicous package" up the street. She noticed my radio on my belt and advised me that a radio silence was in effect. I turned mine off.
While conversing, at least 4 cars came down Falls Road and were told that the road was closed. At least 1 idiot tried to pass the police car, so the cop gave him the blast on the siren.
He turned around, but was not the least bit happy about it.
Lemme put it THIS way ... 'Nuff said ...
Probably a cop on the earlier shift forgot his bag of donuts, and someone thought it was a bomb.
Comment by one of our shopmen later, on hearing the report: "somebody's backpack just got disintegrated".
Life in the Big City.
Ah, the adult diaper business is postively booming these days!
http://palter.org/~brotzman/03-27-03_MNRR_TRIP/
In this update you will see some pics of the last remaining track with traditional New Haven diamond catenary, several NHRR Signaling Stations (aka Towers), a few shots of the Amtrak regional train that my CDoT M-2 MU train nearly beat to New Haven, WOODHAVEN, one of the few NYC flying juctions and how MNRR has brutally DEFACED the tower there and several more.
As usual here is a teaser to get you to click on the link:
Comments/questions/requests welcome.
FOLLOW WHAT UR CAB SIGNAL SAYS
ALL THEY CAN SAY IS FLASHING GREEN, DOUBLE RED MEANS STOP, AND IF CAB SIGNALS FAIL, THEY CAN ALL FLASH SIMULTANEOUSLY DISPLAYING ABSOLUTE CLEAR. WHEN I GET BACK FROM MY OUT OF TOWN TRIP, I WILL EXPLAIN ALL OF METRO NORTH SIGNALS. I work there so i know them all
Read this from the SI Advance.
Bill "Newkirk"
No it does not say the fare is $4.00. It says a rider needs $4.00 in order to ride the system to St. George and exit. That is because there is nowhere on Staten Island to purchase a single ride card except at the machine at the ferry terminal outside of fare control at St. George, and the rider must do an exit swipe to reach it. Prior to the fare increase I guess it was possible to purchase a single token to use to leave the system.
Tom
No, it actually says you need $4 for a round-trip. The article makes much ado about nothing.
If you're riding from St. George, you pay your fare (using any kind of MetroCard or cash). You get off wherever.
On your return, you do not pay to enter the system. Upon arrival at St. George, you pay to exit.
I see nothing wrong with any of this. I agree, however, that a MetroCard vending machine should be placed inside fare control. If MTA really wants to be nice, they could place MVMs at the busier stations of the railway, though these would be mostly superfluous.
How hard could it be to install an MVM inside fare control at St. George? That would solve the problem.
Yeah, but would they have to have a single ride card or a card with $2.00 left on it to get "trapped" . A real tourist would have a Fun Pass insuring him or her a full day of riding anywhere, not knowing anything like St. George fare controls.
"How hard could it be to install an MVM inside fare control at St. George? That would solve the problem."
I agree with you on that, isn't there any MVM's on the outside of the fare controls ? Or how about signage stating that you need a valid Metrocard with at least $2.00 on it to leave the system. The T.A. loves to make and hang up signs.
Bill "Newkirk"
A sign and MVM outside fare control only helps those who enter SIR at St. George. Someone who enters SIR anywhere else (say, after a bus ride over the Verrazano, or after parking the car somewhere on Staten Island) first encounters St. George from inside fare control.
There needs to be an MVM, with a SingleRide slot, inside fare control.
Maybe for the frugal tourist at heart. But the expensive Funpass may just be the ticket for some European tourists who come here and spend their money like it's water ! Nothing wrong with that of course.
Bill "Newkirk"
Sea Beach Ferd tells me it's because the (N) Sean Beach train is restricted from the Manhattan bridge and forced into the Montague St. rathole !!
Bill "Newkirk"
More difficult question: Where does the LIRR Rockaway ROW go (north end)? What line (if any) does it merge into (or where does it end)?
Impossible question: I have heard that there was an LIRR line to Whitestone/College Point. Was this line in a private ROW, and if so how many tracks did it have, and what is the current status of the ROW (I'm sure the track is gone by now)? And of course, where is it?
I believe Bob Andersen's site has all of your answers (and more).
CG
http://arrts-arrchives.com/wstone1.html
http://forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/whitestone/whitestone.html
It connected to the current LIRR mainline at a spot called Whitepot Junction
Impossible question: I have heard that there was an LIRR line to Whitestone/College Point. Was this line in a private ROW, and if so how many tracks did it have, and what is the current status of the ROW (I'm sure the track is gone by now)? And of course, where is it?
Yes, it was a private LIRR ROW and was mostly single-tracked. Outside of this old switch north of the Shea Stadium station, the ROW has been completely eradicated.
For the longest time alongside the Flushing River north of the IRT line on Roosevelt Ave there was the LIRR ROW track going to Whitestone Landing. Next to the track was 1 or 2 old railroad cars that were knocked over on its side.
The Central Line is running again and trains are being brought back as they are being repaired/upgraded. The latest I could find was this press release from April 28.
John
Did you see the Mavericks put up 83 in the first half?
-Stef
The Redbirds are ruling alright..............under water !
Bill "Newkirk"
I got 2061-2070 down for a transfer.
-Stef
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Despite all this, the Redbirds are going! Make sure to get those pictures in, folks! Everywhere you can! At Queensboro Plaza or at Times Square or at Shea Stadium! I especially like Choo Choo's pictures at Queensboro...very awe inspiring!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
What episode did you see them in 'The King of Queens' anyway? From what I've read, it portrays Queens as a bad place... Like as all of Hollywood says...
Here is a link to it http://www.palter.org/~subway/nyht-19610707.html
>>> the other 20 million [tokens] are outstanding, <<<
It is interesting that there was a 20 million fare float (without discount) in 1961. Perhaps the introduction of the token in 1953 kept the fare at 15¢ longer than if the turnstiles had been modified to accept multiple coins. Now that the token has been recalled, I wonder what the total breakage was. I wonder if the MTA will ever tell us.
Tom
Cute article, though. But in 1961 did they forsee a two dollar fare and thin plastic cards you swipe to gain entry ? No, but the probably foresaw a Second Ave subway. Sounds bass ackwards to me !
Bill "Newkirk"
Trainset #1, which consists of 1361-65 and 1596-1600, were on the road this evening when I spotted the set at 79th St going N/B shortly after 6:15.
1361-65 also have new wheels.
There is more to come....
-Stef
Has anyone here rode a Manhattan-bound Redbird <7> train? Is it any good?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Hmmm...lemme practice some SAT words...
CC LOCAL once said that the Redbirds are very versatile.
You do a lot of assiduous work photographing them.
I hope the rebuilding of the track and the introduction of R-62A's doesn't ruin the integrity of the ride.
TA employees don't have as much candor as they used to. What once were benign compliments from customers and stories of innocuous rule-breaking would nowadays get an employee in a heap of trouble.
My math may have gone up to 710 but my verbal is down to 510 (both out of 800). I need to STUDY!!! I do NOT want to have to take this test again. Hey wait a minute, I think this strategy is working. I'm remembering these words now. Who'da thought I could think about trains and study at the same time? Studying isn't even something I'm good at. I've only studied for one test in the last 6 years.
Bill "Newkirk"
I can't bear the bad A/C and 10-car trains duing the summer. I will miss the 'birds but I won't miss the bad service they have been giving recently.
Will the 7 be the only place to find them?
-Stef
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
How many railfans ride in diesels and rider cars?
-Stef
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
-Stef
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
---Choo Choo
What's this you say? They didn't even notice?!
-Stef
Presently the base fare for a ride on either bus or train is $1.35 with a 25¢ transfer to a second line. During night hours (9:00 P.M. - 5:00 A.M.) the fare on buses (but not trains) is reduced to 75¢. In addition tokens are sold at the rate of 10 for $9.00.
The new proposed fare structure is to lower the base fare 10¢ to $1.25, which I am sure the MTA will spin as a fare reduction, but it will eliminate tokens, transfers and the night rate. Instead of transfers the MTA will sell day passes on the bus and at train stations for $3.00 allowing unlimited rides for the whole day. In addition there will be a $10.00 increase in monthly passes from $42.00 to $52.00. It is possible under one option that tokens will be retained, but at a rate of 10 for $11.00. It is also still up in the air whether discounted fares (senior, student, disabled) will be increased.
All of the present passes are sight passes. The LACMTA has been investigating a MetroCard like system, but there has been no announcement of implementation, and with the present budget crunch it will probably be put off to better times. [also posted on Bus Talk]
Tom
I think the Second Avenue Subway should be the Gold Line in NY. It's expensive ... and buried ... and hard to pan out. ;-)
Originally it will use 26 Siemens cars similar to those now on the Green Line, but the LACMTA has an order in for 50 cars from Ansaldobreda S.p.A. of Naples, Italy due to arrive by May 2007 and an option for an additional 100 cars in future years. This should make the Breda fans happy.
Tom
By the way, welcome back. Hope everything's okay.
And now the Gold Line is being extended into East L.A. Originally East L.A. was to be an eastward extension of the Red Line, which would be justified by the estimated usage, since many of the Hispanic residents without cars in East L.A. shop and work in the downtown area.
When the politically powerful Westsiders who have no plans to ride public transportation anyway said no more money for subways, it was easy to ignore the needs of the poorer community in East L.A. I am happy to see that they were at least able to get the Gold Line extended eastward.
Tom
It is not quite that good. It is good only on LACMTA buses and trains. It is not good on the Metrolink commuter trains which would be similar to the LIRR or Metro North. Also, LACMTA is not the only bus operator in the county. They are now selling a monthly E-Z Transit Pass for $58, (compared to a $42 MTA pass) good on almost all buses in L.A. County, but both types of passes have premium stamps for express buses.
The day pass is only 20% more than the cost of two single rides, but there is no reduced price transfer. Under the old fare structure, a person taking three buses to get somewhere would pay the base fare of $1.35 plus 50¢ for two transfers totaling $1.85. The new system would make the day pass at $3.00 the cheapest way to go since the alternative would be three $1.25 fares, or $3.75. Because of the spread out nature of L.A., many trips involve transfers.
This type of daily pass brings out the gambler in us. If when I leave the house I expect to go one place and return (two trips), I would not purchase the day pass. Now, if when I get to my destination I find I have to go to another location, and then go home, I will kick myself for not buying the day pass, but still won't buy one because there are only two more trips. If when I get to the second location I am told that I have to return to the first one before going home, I will probably buy a day pass, because I expect whatever can go wrong will, and then at the first location I am told I am done for the day and can go home, losing another 50¢.
Tom
Will LAMTA refuse to accept transfers from the other agencies?
Each of the local bus companies has its own price and transfer policies, although most allowed some kind of interagency transfer the last time I checked, which was before the introduction of the E-Z Transit Pass.
I do not know what the policy will be when LACMTA goes to its new fare structure, but it accepts an OCTA day pass for the Orange County surcharge portion of the fare on the Disneyland bus, and in the neighboring counties of San Bernardino and Riverside, the day pass is accepted for one ride on the other county's buses as a transfer at places the buses interconnect.
Tom
You could pay $2.50 cash, but there will be no more 90¢ tokens. If there are tokens at all they will cost $11.00 for ten tokens, i.e $1.10 each. But if you are planning to take a third bus or train, or return to where you started, the $3.00 day pass is what you want.
Tom
Arti
A backdoor way is to search (for Air Shuttle) on Google News. The article can be accessed without registration.
Tom
Elias
From my observations only, Amtrak is clearly responsible for a good chunk of the lost business between NY and DC. Every time I've taken the Acela Express along that route it has been sold out (though I have always been able to buy a ticket a day or two before departure).
On the other hand, I'm not as certain about NY - Boston. I haven't taken this route, but have observed a good number of trains both departing Penn and en route. There usually seems to be more than just a few empty seats.
CG
NY-BOS has improved for Amtrak, especially nowe that the railroad can offer an under four hour schedule. But in order to really consider Amtrak for the trip over the airlines on convenience, they have to work out a schedule closer to three hours flat. This means more stretches of 150 mph operation; hitting those curves at at least 100mph consistenntly; leaving and arriving on time and other improvements. Over time, it will happen.
I remember those hazy crazy days in the late 70's when old fighter pilot Francis Gabreski ran the LIRR. The railroad had a very high failure rate of A/C and the last place you want to be in the summer is on an M-1 with NO A/C. Their friggin windows don't open. One hot summer, I came home after a days outing of riding the Nostalgia Special. At Penn Statiom, so many cars were hot that me and a couple of hardy souls braved the inferno while a few cars with working A/C were packed. I sat on that seat next to the open window where the conductor uses to open and close the doors. I even stood by the open window while the train was in motion. The conductor didn't raz me about that, hell you could see by his uniform shirt that he was sweating bullets.
This was the same time the LIRR had only a hand full of spare traction motors for a fleet of 770 cars ! You know what that means, TRAILERS. The M-1's were so slow excellerating, they couldn't get out of their own way !!
Bill "Newkirk"
The last trip was one minute after Midnight (12:01am May 11, 1975)
I remember that day, I was 15 years old, I got to the Culver Shuttle at about 7:00pm to stake out the westbound railfan window. (R30 car #8525)
When it was time for the last run, the train was packed, looked more like the 42nd St Shuttle than the Culver Shuttle!
Enjoy the pictures:
www.CulverShuttle.com
-Larry
"Culver Shuttle closes. Dozens affected."
-Larry
-Larry
I would give anything to see some West End elevated construction photos, but some of yours marked "Culver" were also for the West End. That 1915 shot of the Culver/West End merge is incredible!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
-Larry
www.CulverShuttle.com
subway.com.ru
--Mark
-Larry
--Mark
Any chance we can scare up some accordian players for the first run over the Manny B?
It sure did feel like a party, I was on the last 6 round trips, and it filled up by the last two.
On the final trip from Ditmas to Ninth Ave, they blew the train horn the entire way!
-Larry
Schedule permitting, I intend to be on the first West End D in 2004. See you there.
When 2 Broadway is completed, will 370 Jay St. Be sold? I know that developers are eying that property, along with others, for development. Downtown Brooklyn continues to grow.
That's always been the plan. 370 Jay Street needs a gut rehab, and is a good site for a hotel.
The MTA got hosed on 2 Broadway, allright. CPM didn't manage the job, although CPM is occupying the building.
Fans of privitization take note: the private sector is more innovative and efficient, but one its favorite innovations is efficiently fleecing the government.
Are they just going to rehab 370 Jay or tear it down? That's one ugly building. At the least they could change the facade.
They made part of it government offices to get it built, since the hotel market was unproven. Now they want the offices out to build more rooms.
(Are they just going to rehab 370 Jay or tear it down? That's one ugly building. At the least they could change the facade.)
They could gut it and put a new facade on it easily.
I thought that they were going to just build another 23 story building next to it.
(I thought that they were going to just build another 23 story building next to it.)
That too. They are making lots of money. My parents were visiting once and wanted to stay there, but it was sold out so they had to stay in (gasp) Manhattan.
And for its part, the government is extremely fleece-able.
Do your abandoned ROW walking from the comfort of your own home at OLDNYC.COM
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I can guarantee that on neither tour will you encounter poison ivy.
Another question; What time do I have to be at Grand Central or Chambers St?
With all the changing times and modes, you can still
get a front window ride on a car that bears the OPENING YEAR.
Somehow it's already 3 PM and my brain's not awake
"...we recently have salavaged 12 previously unavailable storm
doors from the Redbirds. Eight have already been purchased and we'd like to
know if you are interested in one or two. They cost $100 each to purchase
and $100 to ship. If you are interested, please let me know immediately as
these are on a first come-first serve basis! Thanks. --Kevin.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kevin M. Sanders
Operations Specialist
Asset Recovery Unit
MTA New York City Transit
Ph: 718.694.5459
Fax: 718.694.5344
His e-mail is KESANDE2@NYCT.com and I am not making up those prices, that is the exact e-mail.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Bill "Newkirk"
BTW: Would you really want an oily/greasy door?
If it is red, has a window, and a handle, then YES, YES I would like an oily/greasy door.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chuck Greene
Chuck Greene
til next time
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Or so this is what I am given to understand.
Elias
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Just click here and join in! If you have mIRC (reccommended) but do not know how to access the room using it click the link and then click on "How to get mIRC". If you want to get mIRC, follow the same instructions. Please note, the room has now moved to irc.webchat.org. The room name is still #chathamsquare.COME HAVE SOME FUN! JOIN IN NOW!
DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MESSAGE. YOUR QUESTIONS WILL BE ANSWERED IN THE CHAT ROOM.
Here's a site that links to a railroad where the practice is still used for standard operations ... http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/lamure/english/exploit.html
When they motorman passes the baton (paddle) to the track worker or vice versa, it means that his train is the only train in that section and that no other train shall enter. This is done when one train operates in both directions on the same track.
Bill "Newkirk"
No they dont need to. The signals take care of that, and if a second train enters that block, it has to be with permission from supervision.
On the upcoming M.O.D. IRT fantrip on June 7th, this example may happen. The fantrip calls for departure from GCT shuttle track #1, which is in daily use. What may happen is the fantrip train will pull into the shuttle track while the regular shuttle train is still at Times Square. That shuttle will have to be held there until the fantrip trains leaves and once again the shuttle will traverse that track.
Bill "Newkirk"
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
We'll see!
Not if a quick boarding time of about 15 minutes or so so they load and go. I attended some fantrips that left from Track #1. And I was told that the shuttle was held at Times Square. The track normally closed on weekends remained closed through all this, but it was load and go.
I'll give you another example. I attended a fantrip hosted by the NY Division ERA back in 1979 or 80 called "The Mosholu Transfer". It consisted of the Low V's painted in the Diamond Jubilee tuscan red colors and a flat car with bench seating painted the same. We boarded at Grand Central, all attendees sitting on their bench seats, and we proceeded as far as we could go to Times Square with the shuttle train held in the station.
After that we changed ends and off we went to GCT and rejoined the IRT lex Line, still sitting on our bench seats on that flat car in the open. NO WAY could something like that be held today, ya know, lawsuits, liabilities etc. While waiting for the fantrip, the Low-V's were still waiting for us in the pocket at GCT, the Shuttle on Track #1 was still traversing until it was held at Times Square. In those days something wild and wooly like that could be done, but today........nah !
Bill "Newkirk"
For starters, the Lex Ave local connecting track at GCT is long enough for the excursion train to lay up and wait. That's the way it's been for fantrips / excursions in the past. At Times Square the excursion has to pull ahead of the switch, a crew of workers have to raise the plate and do a reverse move to Track #4. It would be easier to go the route of Lex Local and back up to Shuttle track #1. And besides, what excursion / fantrip wouldn't be complete without passing or stopping at City Hall loop ? I was on many a fantrip where the first photostop was City Hall. That's the railfan equivalant of Mecca. We all have to pay a pilgrimage there with out cameras and get that sacred steel dust on the souls of our shoes !
Bill "Newkirk"
Also known as passing the "baton". In the past, they used to pass a yellow flag instead of a shoe paddle.
Bill "Newkirk"
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
A shoe paddle isn't heavy, like a shoe beam. It's probably made of plywood.
Bill "Newkirk"
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
David
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
The schoolcar "board of education" is used ONLY on customers. :)
The old term was "baton", who knows, maybe now it's paddle. Times change !
"Bill Newkirk"
Dunno what they do these days, but I'd imagine it wouldn't have changed much. 'Cept for the lanterns of course. Now they depend on that dead pink bunny. Heh.
when I set the pressure and move the handle towards the power settings
the pressure doesn't decrease.
So, was this movie being shot with the Nassau line connected to the finished 2nd avenue subway?
I was due for a subway dream, anyway.:)
Chuck Greene
For bold type, substitute "b" for the "i".
Chuck Greene
So for the above, the tags that are before or after the words ( etc) put them outside your text, for example (as above) text will be text
Color is more complicated:
Start off with and end it with
Replace the color in quotes (not the word color that I capitalized) with a color of your choice. text becomes text
Quotes are optional, none of the above are caps sensitive.
So for the above, the tags that are before or after the words (<b> etc) put them outside your text, for example (as above) <b>text</b> will be text
Color is more complicated:
Start off with <FONT COLOR="color"> and end it with </FONT>
Replace the color in quotes (not the word color that I capitalized) with a color of your choice. <font color="green">text</font> becomes text
Quotes are optional, none of the above are caps sensitive.
Sorry about the first one, I violated the rule about previewing when using escape sequences. This doesn't mean you can't preview your HTML (you should ALWAYS preview), just what I was doing (showing the actual codes) previewing is a no no.
replace ( with <
replace ) with >
replace x with a color name or pound sign with hexidecimal number (ex. blue, purple, #ABCDEF, or F5D42C)
Maybe you were trying to ride on the Diamond B Train!
: ) Elias
: )____________ Elias eating spaghetti
Veiw line 27 in the source code of post;
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=490715
John
In the spirt of "Give a man a fish and you feed him for one day, but teach him to fish and you feed him for life," let me suggest there are several free HTML tutorials on the internet. Check a few of them and you too will be able to do all the fancy stuff.
Tom
I wouldn't mind if David had up a page up explaining how to do stuff like that in Subtalk. It would be helpful and help eliminate having to ask questions like this from time to time.
It is easier for him to make a place for a page that you make than it is for him to make a whole new page himself.
: ) Elias
I have no knowledge on HTML! There goes your argument. :P
And why should Dave provide instruction in HTML? It is not transit related. Some Sub Talkers have trouble with spelling. Should he also provide a spell checker? How about a grammar checker? Maybe a course on budgeting to offset the fare increase. :-)
Tom
One post directed at one individual, with 298 replies. Including 101 replies in one day -- fully one week after the original post. These must both be some kind of record.
Probably not a single one with any meaningful transit content whatsoever. Lots of political discussion. "It was Clinton's recession". "It was Bush's recession". "Bush Sr." "Reagan"
"Carter". "Tyler".
Some good discussions of SubTalk personalities too. This one's a bigoted racist. Another one is a pinko commie. Somebody else never contributes anything meaningful to SubTalk (of course that particular someone else stayed out of this thread... hmmm).
In none of the 298 -- nor, I believe, in the entire nearly 500,000 post history of SubTalk -- has anyone ever typed out the words "Wow, you're right! I'm going to revisit my entire political viewpoint." Are we somehow waiting for that to happen? Does the person who actually gets somebody to type those words win some kind of prize?
I realize that politics and transit are necessrily intertwined, and that we'll all succumb to the urge to interject our own political opinion at times. Doesn't there come a point, though, where we can just drop it and move on? Has the phrase "agree to disagree" somehow escaped the vocabulary of the posters on this board?
CG
Yes. Yes it has.
--------------
Doctor: What you need is a good, long rest. I suggest Florida.
Homer: Florida? But that's America's wang!
Doctor: They prefer, "The Sunshine State."
--------------
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I'd be happy to send my thoughts to you and Fred if you send me an e-mail.
CG
-The F between Roosevelt Ave. and 21 St/Queensbridge
-The F between 21 St/Queensbridge and Roosevelt Island
-The N/W between Queensborough Plaza and Lexington Ave
The trains feel like they're going reeeeeeaallly really fast down those stretches. Is there a maximum speed limit? Do the trains down there often exceed it? It's sooooo much fun.
Trains going down the 60 St tube go at about 60mph. As for the other two, the F between Roosevelt and 21 St [Queens Plaza for the E], on a train I've been on, it went 51mph [better to ride the E so you could see the speedometer].
I can tell you that, a few weeks ago, I rode an N train from Lex to Queensboro (yes, that direction) that hit 60, according to the speedometer.
Other fast rides are the 2/3 from 72nd to 42nd (I've seen 50 on a Redbird) and the SB Joralemon tube (I've seen low 50's on a Redbird).
--AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
However, from Bway Jct to Utica, some T/O's of the R-32/38's tend to forget about the timers at the bottom and accelerate like the N/W entering the 60th St tube. Then the train slows to a crawl at Utica.
Diverted (C) T/O's are wimps on the express track; they don't even top 30.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
The truth reveals itself. Please don't exaggerate when answering a simple question that has a factual answer. I mean, either you did or you didn't see 50mph on the speedo. It looks like you didn't, so you flat out lied to us. You've just lost all credibility, for like the umpteenth time. But that doesn't mean we can't still be friends. (for nitpickers, I'll retract the "umpteenth" and replace it with "second", because I know I've said this to you at least once before)
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
As for F going between Roosevelt and 21 St/Queensbridge...going westbound the train hits a max of 40-42 MPH when it departs from Roosevelt and when it bypasses 65 St (it hits about 40-42 just before the tunnel descends). After that, the speed gradually drops to I would say about 25-30 MPH.
The R tends to be slower than the N/W since it negotiates a curve at the Queens end of the tunnel.
Anyway, we took the next cars going down towards Bayonne. Rode to 45th Street stop. (good rfw) I bought two tickets and validated `em at Marin Street....took the next car going back up to Hoboken. Both times, no onboard ticket checkers. Saw `em at, uh, Pavonia but they stayed on the platform. Rode to Hoboken Terminal; great elevated views of the terminal on approach. And the stretch through J.C. was marred by the lack of the Towers. Put a damper on some of my joy. Something was lacking....
So at Hoboken we waited for the next boat for Pavonia and World Financial Center. The North River was exceptionally busy from what I observed. Not just one but two large cruise ships silently cruised downriver, plus a long I guess container ship went by. Numerous ferries; NY Waterways and those yellow schoolbus-looking boats zipping across and up and downriver. Lots of sailboats too. That stretch of river is sure nice to be around. One unexpected note: As dusk was slowly approaching it gave my railfan heart a skip to notice the HBLRT cars passing by the Pavonia area downriver from the Hoboken ferry docks. To see those cars rolling by the huge buildings fronting the river....very pleasing sight indeed.
(So that makes it, what, three diffent ways to go from Hoboken to Pavonia? Underneath the streets via PATH, on top of the streets via HBLRT, and over the water, since the W.F.C. boats stop in Pavonia first? Anyplace else have such a level of redundancy?)
Rode the waves to the Center. Walked over the new bridge to Liberty Street. Looked at the painful visage.....the kid took some pictures, we looked over the Wall. It was too much to encompass. Nothing you say gets you over on it. We walked over to Wall Street, took the 4 (not one of the new trains darn it) up to Brooklyn Bridge. Transferred over to good ol' Chambers Street BMT. (Figured I'd get the boy to appreciate North Brooklyn the down home way). He was freaked over the station. We took the next J train going to Jamaica. It came in on the middle track at Chambers, and skipped Marcy Avene. I thought we were gonna go express but no such luck. All stops but it was a pretty good run at that. Waited just past Broadway Junction for about five minutes or so. I think so as to let a city-bound train go by? But we got moving again and got off at Sutphin Blvd. Darn it, we missed the 19:30 diesel express to Babylon by six minutes! We left Chambers Street at six fourty; I thought we would have made it to Jamaica with about five minutes to spare. Guess that E.N.Y hold done us in. So we ambled around Jamaica for an hour and caught the 20:49 train, express, Freeport and Babylon, transfer for Patchogue Scoot. Funny thing was, there was a Montauk Express train leaving twenty minutes later. But the kid didn't want to wait there longer so we took the first train. Pretty good train freq though, two expresses withing 20 minutes of each other...on a Saturday night.
Sorry for the inexact rambling here. I figure, well, I showed this boy five different types of rail transportation nodes plus a riparian bonus to boot. Gave `im sumpin' to digest.......
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Thanks. Yeah, and I had been dreaming of other ways too, like taking the Shortline bus from Islip to White Plains and coming down to G.C. by train, or if I REALLY had time I would have taken the Greenport line from Medford to Greenport, the ferry to New London, Amtrak to Penn Station, PATH to Newark, bus to M.L.K. Blvd, J.C., and HBLR to Hoboken. But it wasn't in the cards, plus we would've missed the Medford connection anyway, going back home.
I planted a few train seeds into the mind of a "yout". Couldn't hurt...
Greenport station is several miles from the Orient Point ferry terminal. Dunno if there's any connecting bus service.
You're right, forgot about that. There is the S92 bus that would have done it. For that matter....aren't there "ferries" leaving from Montauk going up to Rhode Island? Thought I came upon that once while searching for ferry services. There's a circle line tour to consider.
I believe there are ferries between Montauk and Block Island in the summer. Combine one of those with a Block Island-Providence ferry, then Amtrak from Providence to Penn, plus of course LIRR from Penn to Montauk, and yes you've got the round-trip. I somehow doubt that it could be made in a single day, however.
Actually, I would have gone to Journal Square and taken the 87 to the M.L.K. station. I like the bus station there. It seems to me that Journal Square don't get any respect. I've always wished it had an actual commuter rail component to it.
These are photos taken today, 5/10/2003, of the Camden-Trenton Light Rail Cars, with Bombardier propulsion packages and carbodies originally designed by Adtranz, re-designed and built by Stadler, a Swiss-German company...They have a high speed of about 69MPH, though the cars will only go 60MPH at its fastest points.
Enjoy!
Camden-Trenton Light Rail car #3508 at the South Jersey Light Rail facility in Camden, NJ.
Two Camden-Trenton Light Rail Cars, #3505 and #3517 in the yard facility in Camden, NJ.
Camden-Trenton car #3516 inside the shop facility in Camden, NJ.
Interior view #1 of the cars.
Interior view #2.
View of an uncovered seat on the cars.
Interior view #3, looking through the passageway in the C-module, the middle module of the car.
Interior view #4.
A view of the diesel and propulsion unit in the C-module of the cars.
Hope you enjoyed this Cleanairbus Presentation!
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
http://www.cleanairbus.tk
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
So then why do they have the doors there so people can open them and pass through? THAT would be a waste if people couldn't walk through...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
Transit Is My Drug
We were told that when the line opens, the "C" section will be open for passengers to walk between the "A" and "B" sections. If it causes problems, passengers will no longer be allowed to walk through the "C" section.
David
Just shows to go ya, Mike; you have to consider the source!!!!!!!???????????!!!!!!!!!! You must seek PROFF!!!!!!!!!?????????!!!!!!!!! (that's a little 'welcome back' for Salaam)
We're talking about walking through the power car aisle to get from one passenger car end to the other.
That's what they told us during our visit last fall. They're learning as they go along, and since service isn't scheduled to start until fall, they have a lot to learn.
They even understood the silliness of terminating service at 10 PM, given events at Trenton Thunder, Camden Riversharks, Tweeter Center, &c., will let out later and could contribute significant ridership if the line ran later. Yes, use of Budd RDC's between Camden 36th Street and Bordentown has been suggested.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I got a photo of the cars in the yard north of the shop at 5 PM yesterday (5/10/03).
I also took the liberty of posting a link to your post to the railroad.net South Jersey light rail message board.
Bob
Also, where is the Camden yard in relation to the Rand Trans Ctr.
Also, where is the Camden yard in relation to the Rand Trans Ctr.
Fall 2003 is still their current estimate.
The Rand Trans Ctr station is in downtown Camden. The present Rand Transp Ctr is behind the photographer's right shoulder, across Broadway from the light rail station. The shop is in East Camden, at 32nd Street.
More specifically, they are 2.22 miles apart along the right-of-way; Rand is at MP 1.28 and the shop is at MP 3.50.
They are 67ft long in a world of 60 and 75ft cars. How about this. Bombardier makes some sort of a deal with the T.A. since they may never run them again. Buy them back, redo the full width cabs where the operator controls the trains functions on the left instead of right. Now you have a new technology test trainset for PATCO (NJ-PA). The R-110B's will be 67ft cars in a 67 foot car system.
If PATCO needs to test new technologies for an advanced replacement, a modified R-110B may be the ticket.
Bill "Newkirk"
PATCO was buily with a center platform in every station, so the train operator's seat is on the left so he has a view of the platform for door-closing (OPTO).
PATCO Collingswood station
The L. A. Metro Red Line cars are configured the same way, but at least there almost all the stations are island platform, the only time the operator has to get up is Vermont Av eastbound (railroad south) b/c those platforms are stacked in order to avoid a crossover at grade (the separation point for the Hollywood/North Hollywood and Wilshire lines is just west of this station).
Mark
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Speaking of which, I would imagine they'll keep the IRT museum cars coupled together in the same order on the March of Dimes trips as they were at the museum: R-12, R-15, R-17, and R-33. Since the R-12 has trigger boxes, you wouldn't want it in the middle at the conductor's station. There's a good chance that whoever serves as conductor will be working lever handles, as both the R-15 and R-17 have them.
However, there is a risk that you might run into a police officer who could conceivably arrest you anyway.
I would climb up to the point of the sign and say I had to climb up there since I am very nearsighted and wanted to read the sign ;-)
He says that there will be a "Train Technician" on board, but that he will not be operating the train, but rather ensuring that the engines are working correctly, making repairs on the fly, etc.
I ask him what about grade crossings, and he says "What about them... even if there *is* a crew on board, they ain't going to stop for some jerk on the crossing."
I said that these are *manual* switches out here, and he says "They will be changed over to remote control."
He says about 60 months, and then you can watch for crewless trains coming to a railroad near you.
Elias
Train wasn't going to stop for him even if there was a four-person crew in the cab. Even if the crossing gates didn't work, the train *still* would not (could not) have stopped for him.
If the lawyer is *that* stupid, set *him* out on the tracks with a stop watch and let him make the measurements and field tests for himself.
Elias
Either your leg is being pulled, or you might just be willing to buy the Brooklyn Bridge.
That they have been conducting tests, there can be no doubt, unless as you say, my leg has ben stretched, but this guy is not one to do that, so that leaves us with the stark reality that BNSF is going to go a LONG way to eliminate as many people as possible. They *want* to run their trains with no crews on them, and techinically, there is no reason why they cannot do so.
Elias
But while it isn't being put into practice just yet, it IS being looked at very lustfully by the major railroads ...
Shirley, you jest.
Think the legal establishement wouldn't fight that tooth & nail? The cable and broadcast channels are full to overflowing with "no fee, unless we win" and "If you have a phone, you have a lawyer". Think that's a sure thing, I offer a bridge I happen to have - it has a lovely view of Brooklyn.
The SAS will be in full operation and 76th Street will see a train before that ever happens.
All seriouness aside (10 points if you know where that came from), a couple of my friends and BSM associates happen to be lawyers and they do good things, like get the BSM logo registered as a service mark and schmooze the local pols.
I can rephrase it for NYCT.
"He says about 60 YEARS, and then you can watch for crewless trains coming to a subway near you."
"He says about 60 CENTURIES, and then you can watch for crewless trains coming to a subway near you."
MTA- Coming your way.... just not this lifetime.
Subway riders with $20 bills can now get change to buy $2 single-fare MetroCards.
On Friday, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority announced that station agents would no longer refuse to make change for riders with twenties who need smaller bills to buy fare cards from vending machines.
The vending machines provide a maximum of only $6 in change, making it difficult for a rider with a $10 or $20 bill to buy a $2 single-fare card or a $7 one-day pass. Riders had complained that station agents were often unable or unwilling to make change for larger bills.
The vending machines will now provide up to $8 in change, said Tom Kelly, a spokesman for the transit agency.
The change in policy, first reported yesterday in The Daily News, came after customer complaints, he said.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
And the MEM's are small in part because they don't have SingleRide dispensers. It might be confusing to add the feature only to the full MVM's.
That is almost certainly a contractual secret (i.e., the credit card companies will insist that the MTA keep the numbers secret so that those who pay more don't scream).
Assuming it's flat fee plus percentage, the flat fee component can't be anywhere near $1.00. Some Burger Kings take credit cards (faster than cash, they claim). They'd never do that if they couldn't have negotiated a fee that's essentially just a small percentage. And while the MTA isn't quite as big as Burger King, it's still pretty big and can negotiate a good deal.
There is a company that clears every known card transaction (Amex, VISA, MC, Japan Credit Bureau, Carte Blanche, Diners Club) and processes the paperwork for you, so you don't even have to have a relationship or merchant account with a credit-card issuer. This company charges 6% for the privilege.
What does the merchant get for these fees?
1. The merchant is guaranteed payment, and knows that the burden of collecting is on the credit card issuer.
2. The merchant doesn't have to worry about checks bouncing or security for large amounts of cash, or making change
3. The merchant gets itemized statements of revenue and expenses, which helps with accounting issues, sales taxes, and the like.
MTA could get a deal to pay for relatively small transactions by credit card, because the volume is very high. (SEPTA does it.) Why don't they? I don't know. Maybe just inertia.
That's a major change since I was involved with a small business... Discover was right up there with American Express back in the mid-'90s.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(I have no idea if the cashier was telling the truth.)
Tops is owned by the Dutch supermarket giant Royal Ahold. I'm sure Royal Ahold could secure a good deal.
NYCT may be in a slightly worse position. Tops requires a signature on the receipt, although it's not verified. NYCT doesn't ask for a signature at all. (Does Burger King check signatures?)
hehehehehe......
But as the SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE SKIT which predicted "Turnstile of da future" went ...
A concept that gets overlooked too often these days is the whole idea of "voice." I'm not referring to narration here. I'm
talking about the "tone" in which people and organizations communicate. Every person and company has a sort of
personality which (ideally) should be present, if not always overtly, in its messages.
If you don't believe this is the case, let's flip the idea upside down. Most of us have seen the spoofed commercials on
NBC's Saturday Night Live. What makes these things so hilarious? Many people are actually fooled for the first few
seconds into believing that is an actual commercial. That's because they are usually utilizing a familiar "voice" that
we've heard on actual commercials. Again, I'm not referring to the actual narrator's voice, but more the method of
delivery and the visual style of the images. Most of the actual premises are juvenile and absurd. What makes them
funny is the completely credible way the spot comes across.
An example is the very authentic-feeling "National Change Bank" spot. This spot was a spoof of a very similar spot
done for a large bank with the people of the bank professing how important customers and their needs are to them.
The interviews are softly, but very directionally lit to give a very intimate feel. The original, legitimate spot was
designed to make you feel protected and even befriended by the advertising bank. Of course, in the Saturday Night
Live spot, the bank strictly changes the money into different denominations for you. I recall one interview answer that
went something like this, "All our customers needs are different. When someone asks me for change for a dollar, I
can give you four quarters, I can give you ten dimes or twenty nickels, or five dimes and ten nickels, or a quarter,
three dimes, eight nickels and five pennies, we know life is unpredictable, and we want to be there for you." When
asked the inevitable question of how they can do such a thing and stay in business with such a narrow and decidedly
profit-lacking specialty, the "Vice President" type points to "One word..... volume." The premise is so nonsensical that
without the presentation wrapped around it, would it even be funny?
AGGGHHH! I finally GOT it. :(
thanks, Jeff
That's easy for you to say .... now that Dave has updated the caption.
Tom
Robert
Robert
Robert
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
*I think the fledging requirements is an official anouncement on Subtalk and more than 2 people showing up.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
It's Sunday or nothing, unless we can pull off a weekday.
Sean
Temple University
We'll just have to find time on a weekday.
Also, the route 100, 101 and 102 lines run 1/2 hourly service on Sundays.
--Mark
Sean
Temple University
Columbus Circle isn't even one mezzanine -- it's split down the middle by the IRT. The south mezzanine isn't much longer than the standard IND mezzanine, if at all.
Needless to say, I've since found an alternative to walking down the Green Mile. :)
The latter admittedly isn't a single corridor for most of the trip like the former is.
I've always thought of that as a passageway rather than a true mezzanine. Note that it's lined with various maintenance facilities, rather than being just empty space.
Peace,
ANDEE
Don't forget; these passageways were built in an era when people walked more. I can also appreciate the planning behind their construction. Most probably, the streets were not so nice in many areas. Horse crap, primitive traffic controls, and the paving itself all lent itself to making for a messy walk. The idea that you could enter into the more controled (hence sanitary) environment of "The Subway System", even if you weren't in the presence of tracks and platforms no doubt offered a great appeal to pedestrians. There was also a "modern" feel to it all, to the many interconnecting underground passageways under the pavements. I'm sure it added to the peoples' sense of excitement about the Future. To this day, there is the element of something futuristic with underground passageways. It's somehow cool, the multi-layer aspect of it. On Top, the City moves about unceasingly. Yet the need for passage drives it to dig within itself and sprout roots so the valued nutrients (us) may go where needed and replenish the Whole.
Ahem.
Don't forget; these passageways were built in an era when people walked more. I can also appreciate the planning behind their construction. Most probably, the streets were not so nice in many areas. Horse crap, primitive traffic controls, and the paving itself all lent itself to making for a messy walk. The idea that you could enter into the more controled (hence sanitary) environment of "The Subway System", even if you weren't in the presence of tracks and platforms no doubt offered a great appeal to pedestrians. There was also a "modern" feel to it all, to the many interconnecting underground passageways under the pavements. I'm sure it added to the peoples' sense of excitement about the Future. To this day, there is the element of something futuristic with underground passageways. It's somehow cool, the multi-layer aspect of it. On Top, the City moves about unceasingly. Yet the need for passage drives it to dig within itself and sprout roots so the valued nutrients (us) may go where needed and replenish the Whole.
Ahem.
I don't think there was much horse manure any more in the early 1930s when they built the 8th Ave IND.
In 1971 I worked at the old Port Authority HQ at 111 8th Ave. I used to get off the PATH at 14th St, cross 6th Ave., go back downstairs, then walk underground outside of the fare area all the way to 8th Ave. then continue underground up to 16th St where there was a direct entrance into the building. The 7th Ave. to 8th Ave. section is now closed off but when I used to walk it, it had a fence splitting it in half longitudinally. The other side was used as storage for hundreds of penny scales and other hardware that used to occupy the platforms.
Going home was a little more direct. I could get to the PATH directly without having to go outside at 6th Ave. There was one morning when getting off the uptown PATH there was a torrential downpour so hard that I couldn't get across 6th Ave. I got back on uptown PATH, rode to 33rd, then back to 14th where I could get directly into the passageway.
Sometimes I would go upstairs at 7th Ave. where there was a Needicks and get a 25 cent breakfast special that included a tiny orange juice, tiny donut and a coffee. Then it was back downstairs for the remainder of the hike. This was great during the winter.
Your mention of this passageway brought back other memories as well. I recall during the 60's a Needicks in 69th St. Terminal Upper Darby in the passageway under the Red Arrow tracks. It's long gone now. I miss Needicks. Now I've got the urge to visit 69th St. again. Since I'm in my office in Philadelphia today, I'm going to spend my lunch break there as soon as I push the "send" button.
That was a good way to go in stormy weather.
(P.S. - what ever happened to the penny scales??)
--Andrew
1. Start at north end by stairs on the Broadway
2. After walking upstairs, use the #7 corridor next to S/B staircase.
3. After turning right, DO NOT TAKE RAMP, continue straight ahead to the renovated area at the IRT side and 41st st exit.
4. Go past the IRT renovated area and in the back is a P/T exit that is NOT part of the renovation, there are a pair of escalators. (Note you will also avoid the crowds by the passageway from shuttle to new passageway before IRT side)
5. Take escalator to Flushing Platform, make a u turn and walk towards West end of platform.
6. Go to next staircase walk upstairs and you will see the ramp and passageway to 8th Ave and the PA Bus terminal.
IIRC the escalator will be carrying you further westward, and there's no reason to make a U turn when you get to the base. Walk straight and up the next stairway.
191st st/IND through the passageway to Broadway.
Other not so dark places worth a cross-country hike:
Chambers St/IND (fare free or paid zone)
From 40th st/Broadway paid area to 44th st/8th ave (entire Times Square/Port Authority complex), clearly the longest mezzanine and walk.
Broad St/BMT to Chase Manhattan Building at Cedar/Nassau sts.
14th st/7th Ave passageway
Hoyt-Schermehorn/IND
42nd st/Bryant Park IND to 5th Ave/IRT
It's about .55 miles. So 11 minutes at moderate walking speed, plus congestion delays.
Post 494003
Peace,
ANDEE
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
I'd say we're confusing things here. A "mezzanine," as I've always understood the term, is a separate level of a station, located one level down from the street and over the platforms and tracks. It is not synonymous with an underground passageway, which is what 42/8 (among others) really is.
I agree with you 100%, Peter. Mezzanines are being confused with complexes here. I believe the largest Mezzanines on the system exist on The Concourse IND line. Unfortunatly most of them have been closed for years.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
STILLWELL/BMT
Peace,
ANDEE
---Choo Choo
<--- W 3 St W 8 St --->
Are these the exits of the two ends of the mezzanines? (I would think so)
A deceptive sign that makes the mezzanine look longer than it is. There is a passageway at the south end needed to actually reach the exit at W 3rd. And the north exit isn't really quite at W 8th.
Also, this being the Village, the grid is no longer truly rectangular and standard. W 3rd is not really 5 full blocks south of W 8th.
Purpose: To provide a final ride over the Port Jervis Line as it exists in its "classic" state before its transfer to MNRR and any changes that come as a result.
When: Some Saturday in June or July, whenever the most people are free
Where: From Hoboken to Port Jervis and back
Timetable Options:
-Early: 9:20 AM train departs Hoboken, arrives PJ 11:27, 50 minutes in PJ to explore old Erie yard, coal dock, turntable and eat at PJ Burger Kind adjacent to NJT station. Return Hoboken 2:48, ample time to explore Hoboken Terminal area and/or PATH.
-Midday: 12:55 train departing Hoboken, arrive PJ at 3:25, 100 minutes to explore old Erie Yard, coaling dock, old Erie PJ station building, NJT yard, turntable and eat and PJ Burger King. Catch 5:10 train to Hoboken, attive 7:18, ample time to say goodbye, maybe eat and catch trains home. Time of year will not make darkness a problem.
Activities: Photos and exploring in Port Jervis, lateral photography in daylight for both legs of trip, possible jointed rail special "Shaken Not Stirred" Martini's served en route. I can provide alcohol and olives if someone else provides drink mixing equipment and knowhow.
Who is comming?: I will be there, Pigs will probably come and I am sure I can drag Chuchubob along. Any other Subtalker, friend of Subtalker or related tag along rail enthusiants are more than welcome to attend.
Note: I did this same exact trip (the early timetable) about 8-9 years ago with my dad and friend. It worked out very well, the only problem being almost missing our train due to poor PATH service from Newark to Hoboken. I advise anyone comming from the south to allow at least 50 minutes to get from Newark to Hoboken via the PATH.
Also, the PJ line is a great line to have a trip on. Port Jervis the town it full of historic railfan type things and the trip has some incredibly senic portions. The MNRR takeover just provides an excuse.
The line from the NY state border is/was Conrail (Shared Assets).
The Port Jervis Line is going nowhere—it will indeed remain, as will the Southern Tier Line west of there. The only thing that's going (thankfully) is the remaining jointed rail, upon which is a 60 mph speed restriction—wherever there is CWR, the speed limit is 79 mph.
If indeed Metro-North is taking over the line (as rumored), then they'd better increase the top speed to 90 mph at least.
Replacement of the jointed rail and pole line signaling system (as well as god knows what else) will completely kill the classic flavour of the Port Jervis line and destory a lot of its history. I am launching this trip in order for everyone to experiance and document the line as it is in its classic state.
Certainly if I don't have a prior commitment, you can drag me along. We might even carpool to Hamilton, since the SNJLRTS won't be running yet.
It probably won't reach the excitement level of my last trip to Port Jervis, though. We checked out the turntable on that trip, too.
It probably won't reach the excitement level of my last trip to Port Jervis
I don't know, I'm proposing alcoholic beverages on this trip.
Anyway, this is still the planning stage, just give me a list of free dates and we'll compare with everyone elses list and pick one.
Interestingly, minutes after I posted my photo of 614 next to NJT GP40 #4103, I found the same photo linked to a railroad.net post by a fan of the Geep!
Some day in July or August is good for me.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Yup…and Princeton Junction (PJ) is in New Yersey (NJ) :-P
Sheeeooot. Bro, when I was in Brooklyn, sometimes, any place north of 14th Street seemed like upstate.
With the other two options, you'll be stuck making all local stops in New Jersey on either the outbound or the inbound leg of the trip. The extra 20 minutes do really seem like a lifetime.
You might also want to check in with New Jersey Transit. Over the last four or five years they always ran a special "retro" trip two or three times over the summer. I don't know all the details, but apparently some rich dude restored an old steam locomotive, and they use it to make excursion runs from Hob to PJ two or three times on Saturdays in late summer.
---Choo Choo
The trick is to sit in the middle of the car. The big diesel coaches have large roomy seats. The cheap, flimsy seats they pack into the sardine cans they run on NEC don't even come close. And if you're in the middle of the car, away from the axles, you barely feel the joint rails.
--Mark
Jimmy
PS. If anyone has a hi-res DVD of this film, look carefully at the AEM7 and see if you can make out its number.
Also what numbers are they?
I can't wait to see them with the new seating installed. And with the rollsigns changed to "Albany", "NY Penn", and "Empire Service". I'll be at Hudson waiting for the first train!
:)
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
116- NYCTA Coney Island.
100- N.Y. Rail Car.
200- MK, Hornell, NY.
4- Amtrak.
4- Mechtron, Delaware.
#3 West End Jeff
John
#3 West End Jeff
John
Well, obviously not. I guess the T.A. was experimenting with finding a railcar rebuilder. Only four units were rebuilt, so if Amtrak was sucessful, maybe more units would have been rebuilt.
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm still reeling from GE rebuilding the R38's!
I know their float bridge sank and they haven't operated in brooklyn in 2 or 3 months now, but i thought they'd get it going again at some point...
Anyone have more accurate information on just what is going on?
(and for a little bit of foamer-speculation: if all of the bush term tracks are now abandoned, including the line down first av, what will become of the SBK interchange? or of the engines laying around the yard (so far as I know there's 2 or 3 switchers in the shop building, plus the 2 dead ones along 1st av)).
This is where i got it from:
http://railroad.net/forums/messages.asp?TopicID=10867
I am a sophmore at Baruch College and
I am working on a paper for Journalistic Writing on the signifigance of the loss of the token, it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks I apprciate the help.
Aaron Siegel
Thanks.
My email is azs11@yahoo.com
SubTALK has had an influx of walk-on students/journalists lately
seeking comment (and y'all HAVE come to the RIGHT PLACE)...
'xcept without a little background info on yourself or your
journalistic venue, it's hella hard for us civilians (!?) to tell one from another..
Not to mention, we recently had a Baruch 'softmore' who didn't
quite "get over" so well with us locals (and expresses) here.
Regardless of my babble..
I'm sure you'll find quite an INTERESTING pack of TOKEN afficionados here.. myself included!
Welcome & Thanks for reading, brah!
I was reading all of the posts over the summer but the more i focused on reading last semester, the more i stopped focusing on school work.
But anyway this is for a class not for the Baruch paper but-- if you want to check out theticker.org's archives you will find my cover story on the fare hike w/ a pic of the 6 train at 23rd st that I took.
good luck with the end of the semester.
When semester ends I am planning another trip. I have gone on 2 or 3 since last summer.
--LIRR Acela M7 #7046
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
--Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
What is this, anyway!? Brian (Choo Choo Chap. 11) does this, now you so! Sheesh! :P
Anyways, the M7's are terrible. I rode one yesterday. Even with that yaw fix,they have too much rocking still. I was thinking what would happen once the dest. sign gets mest up like the C3's.
--Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
"Considering the terrorist threat, i highly doubt it"
I thought of that too, but he says its ok, its no problem.
--Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
--Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Sorry to burst your bubble.
TO clarify.... where have you been on the LIRR?
Hmmm What do you mean? Where I have been on the LIRR all my life?
Jimmy
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Jimmy
Think intersection vs freeway interchange. Non-flying junctions are called "flat" junctions. On the NYCS flat junctions are located at Myrtle Ave on the J/Z/M and at Lennox on the 2/3. Flying junctions are called such because they typically have a route that "flys" up and over another. However if a route drops down and ducks onder another that is also a flying junction. Here are some examples:
WOODLAWN on the NYC Harlem Line where the New Haven Line diverges:
And here we are at Jamacia on the LIRR.
Mark
A Flying Junction is where two AIRPLANES meet to follow one route...
: )
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
1242-Broadway local-7 Av Local-South Ferry
2Kings Plaza/Av U-Skip stop via Flatbush and Nostrand with 5-Bklyn local-7 Av express-Bronx local-241 St
3New Lots Av-Bklyn local-7 Av express-148 St
4Utica Av-Bklyn express-Lex Av express-Jerome [express in the peak]-Woodlawn
5Kings Plaza-skip stop or express with 2 via Nostrand & Flatbush-Bklyn express-South Ferry[weekends?]-Lex Av express-Bronx express to Gun Hill Rd [peak]-Dyre or 241 St
6City Hall-Lex Av local-Pelham express[peak]-Bay Plaza.
7Javits Center-Flushing express [peak direction weekdays as well as weekends]-Bell Blvd via Northern
9South Ferry-7 Av local-Broadway express-242 St
*5 may have introduced weekend Brooklyn serivce.
*I did the 9 express thing on purpose since that skip stop crap will be eliminated :-D.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
BTW, I just remembered another Simpsons railroad moment that Pigs forgot. When the REAL Seymour Skinner was run out of town, they tied him in a chair and tied the chair to a railroad flatcar. The whole scene was at the Springfield Station and there was an animated hand operated switch stand.
/me runs away to avoid the court-ordered torturers that are after Mike
Sean
Temple University
It certainly looks cute. But did you notice that as of April 2003 they are still looking for $15 million to set up a prototype system? That means they are still pretty far from proving their concept. Of course I wish them luck; new ideas should be tried.
"Being a resident of Philly I did the math and to cover an area a little bigger then Center City (ie. del ave. to 34th street and south street to spring garden) would only cost in the neighborhood of 200 million dollars."
Maybe. But there are a lot of reasons why that figure might be overly optimistic. It's good that you see the potential, but you haven't done the "due diligence" yet, that is, figuring out what could go wrong with the plan, what the hidden costs are, etc.
"thats less then that supid light rail they are building in south jersey"
It's easy to call something stupid, but I'm guessing from your post that you don't have enough knowledge or experience to tell, yet, what isn't stupid. If this PRT gets set up in Cincinatti for $200 million and then breaks down when more than 20 people at a time use the system, will you call that stupid, or will it be a worthwhile experiment that didn't work out? I'm not saying it will or won't, mind you.
Do you know how much it cost to set up Miami's Metro-Mover system, which goes around downtown and links up to Metrorail?
The South Jersey light rail system has been criticized by some, because of the route selected (meaning other routes are more badly needed) and because of costs, but it utilizes proven technology, and a set of self-propelled railcars built by a reputable, experienced manufacturer, which people will be able ride day in and day out.
I think this PRT is worth developing, but recognize that it's not ready for prime-time yet. South Jersey can't wait the amount of time it will take for this concept to be ready.
Frank Sprague built a system for Richmond, Virginia, and had to prove it, make or break, with a fleet of cars, in public, with everyone watching. He did it and that is why he is remembered as the inventor of the electric street car.
As far as the South Jersey Light rail, i have never been a huge fan of light rail because in my experience (Balitmore) it is often too slow and not much of an improvement over driving. Another reason being that from what I've read the ridership of the SJLR will very possibly be a lot lower then originally predicted.
Until someone can come up with the money to fully test out the concept, most of the discussion on this subject will pretty much be conjecture on both sides.
I meant to post the url in my original message.
http://www.taxi2000.com
Sean
Temple Univeristy
Mark
Sean
Temple University
PRT's been around as a big concept, with a big kickoff conference, since 1973. The problem I see is that with the headways for merging and the small vehicles you'll never get high enough VPH to pay for all those guideways. Even if the cost per mile is low, the visual impact of all those spindly little guideways in old parts of town will tick people off. And I've seen the drawings of the switches -- there are an awful lot of springs and knife blades and things exposed to the snow. Maintenance would eat these systems up. And all so people don't have to walk an extra couple blocks to a line-haul system.
:0)
Congratulations!
And today is Mother's Day, too! Congrats to Mommy! (Would that be your daughter, or daughter-in-law - not that it's a terribly important distinction)
The first was when we would ride out to Lindenwold and then ride back to Haddonfield for fun. Usually we would stay on the train and it would eventually head out in the other direction. Well, one time it didn't and started to pull into the yard. By dad grabbed me and we began to race to the front of the train to tell the T/O to stop, passing through along the way. I was thrilled because in my young mind I thought it was like a super huge no no to pass between cars.
The next story was also at Lindenwold where we were running to catch a train that was just pulling out. My dad had my hand and he ended up pulling me straight into one of those upright columns.
The last story was, one time, heading up the esclator at Haddonfield, for whatever reason I tripped and took a header down a few steps and ended up with a grill impression on my forehead.
I think the moral of the stories is that PATCO is really dangerous for younge Railfans.
That helps us understand some of your posting style...:0)
Congradulations, I'm sure we'll see her at the chapter picnic.
#3 West End Jeff
Just be sure to introduce her to PATCO good and early!
Congratulations!
"My other car is an R142A" or whatever your favorite subway car is.
That will confuse the hell out of people (except those who are railfans).
Bill "Newkirk"
--Mark
MAZEL TOV!!!
BTW - now is the time to make sure your "License to Spoil" is current.
Peace,
ANDEE
Chuck Greene
Get her started off right... get her a life membership at your favorite trolley museum :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
BTW, if you want I can post more screenshots from such films as The "Talking of Pellham One Two Three" and T"he French Connection".
Peace,
ANDEE
6/8 AMUE
R30/lincoln
Sparky/JohnS
Chapter 11 Choo Choo/BMdoobieW/Railfan Window
David J. Greenberger
R33 8840
chuchubob
Bill From Maspeth
JayZeeBMT?
Dtrain22?
6/28 AMUE
R30/lincoln
Sparky/JohnS
R33 8840
Dtrain22?
6/29 SMEE
R30/lincoln
Sparky/JohnS
Chapter 11 Choo Choo/BMdoobieW/Railfan Window
David J. Greenberger
R33 8840
Stef
TransitChuckG
Ripta42HopeTunnel
BMTman
--Mark
SMEE you on the 8th, 28, and 29 everyone. I got the tickets in only 5 days after I mailed it out. So if you haven't done so, please go right ahead and get your tickets, there should be enough to go around (hopefully!)
The 28th & 29th, it's Sparky only. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
Comes with the turf.
---Choo Choo
Just don't put the pin through your chest, just through your shirt.
If you stick yourself, it won't be much fun.
Chuck Greene
That'll fit a 4x3 standard badge holder. When I printed it out it looked too big so I might scale it down to the 3.5x2.25" holders.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
~ Sparky
PS-My posting handle is John S, but all know me as Sparky.
Or, does anyone else want the task?? :-)
8-) Sparky
Chuck Greene
---Choo Choo
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Red Bird #4
PS: What does AMUE mean?
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Robert
Incognito
-Stef
Does the attendee have to be an official "SubTalker" to be listed?
Or do guests of "SubTalkers" qualify? If so, add Mrs. Sparky to
the list for Sunday June 8, when we will be riding our faved line
in the afternoon. Except in case of an unscheduled GO. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
-Larry
If one gets loose, call the Animal Precinct, Officer Lucas will come
to your assistance. >>GG<<
8-) ~ Sparky
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Bill "Newkirk" will be attending the 6/8 R-1/9 and 6/29 IRT SMEE trips.
Bill "Newkirk"
Larr, RedbirdR33
Robert
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Robert
-Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Robert
CG
That's a regular thing now, there are a few (very few) M7 trains roaming the rails with passengers on weekends.
Mark
If you want it built, I suggest you show up. Others are sure to.
I showed up last time, waiting two hours behind all the bigwigs, and testified. But then I was not an MTA employee, and now I am, which means that suddenly I can say the very same things and not have them believed.
Again, if you want it built, I suggest you show up. The arguments I recommend are:
1) Fiscal equity: the affluent people along the East Side pay more federal, state and local taxes than anyone else, yet receive little in public services. All they need is decent transportation to and from work. This was promised, but not provided, three times.
2) Transportation Equity: it would be unjust to build East Side Access, loading even more suburbanites onto the one East Side Subway, without building at least the northern half of the line.
3) Land Use: If the Second Avenue Subway is not under construction in fall, 2004, then the city should admit it has no capacity for additional development in the area east of 5th Avenue and north of 14th Street, and should declare a permanent development moratorium in the area.
4) Conspiracy: If ESA goes ahead and at least the northern half of the Second Avenue does not, no one should believe that this wasn't the plan all along. Is it a coincidence that ESA is going first, and now they are saying they are out of money.
5) National transit equity: if the SAS isn't funded, no new fixed guideway transit system or highway that would carry fewer people should be funded either, ever again.
Again, as an employee, I won't be there to make these arguments. As servants of the Governor, no other employees will be making them either. The MTA is there to apologise of all the environmental impacts building the subway will cause -- the environmental impacts of NOT building something is not part of the EIS process.
If you want it built, show up. Those who post to other transit newsgroups should pass this on there as well.
ONLY those *WITH* an opinion get heard by burrocrats, who nobly present the "tick marks 'fer and 'agin' to the politicos as an EXCEL PIE CHART of "satisfaction" ... like J.D.Powers paid for by lobbyists ... If you don't come out FOR something, the AGAINST its win. :(
Some things are WORTH being for, and being AGAINST ... and the reality is, those who get worked up are the ones who show up, and they're almost universally NIMBYs ... politicians are like FISH (HERE, fishy-fishy-fishy) ... whatever lands IN THEIR FACE *is* the majority. No joke!
Here's just another example - like the DirecTV/Dish screwup by the Shrub administration so that RUPERT of NY POST fame can but the entire satellite world so it's a choice of TimeWarner/NewsCorp (for mouth breathers - does AOL/CNN win, or does Microsoft/FOX win? WHATTA CHOICE? AGGGH) ... off topic, but a worthy cause if anyone cares about TRUTH, or does MSS become a cabinet level minister in the US?
On June 2, the Federal Communications Commission is planning on
authorizing sweeping changes to the American news media. The rules
change could allow your local TV stations, newspaper, radio stations,
and cable provider to all be owned by one company. NBC, ABC, CBS and
Fox could have the same corporate parent. The resulting concentration
of ownership could be deeply destructive to our democracy.
Congress is supposed to guard against monopoly power. But the
upcoming rule change could change the landscape for all media and
usher in an era in which a few corporations control your access to
news and entertainment. Please join me in asking Congress and the
FCC to support a diverse, competitive media landscape by going to:
http://www.moveon.org/stopthefcc/
You can also automatically have your comments publicly filed at the
FCC.
When the folks at MoveOn.org talk to Congresspeople about this issue,
the response is usually the same: "We only hear from media lobbyists on this. It seems like my constituents aren't very concerned with this issue." A few thousand emails could permanently change that perception. Please join this critical campaign, and let Congress know you care.
If YOU don't contact your political WHORES, then you get what you DESERVE! Bad enough the voting public doesn't pay our anointed more than GE or Microsoft or Halliburton or Exxon/Moboil ... but if you're not willing to WRITE to your congressfish, don't complain about the subway fare (whew! FINALLY got it sorta on-topic! Woohoo!) ...
Interrupt your posting here long enough to get a piece of paper into your printer and write a letter of support for the Second Avenue Subway. And then mail it. The MTA needs to have, on record, people from out of town who support the subway.
Do it, Selkirk. No excuses.
For anyone who's actually READ my posts, well ... I have EXTENSIVE, personal experience with politicos ... I *KNOW* how it's all wired, here in Briberyland as WELL as in Enronland ... "the squeaky wheel gets the oil" ... word ... *****BE***** the squeaky wheel. Word again.
Sorry, I use Appleworks :-)
But I suspect that the politicians can't tell the difference... it all ends up as ink on 20 lb. shredder food.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Then please be a realist, and realize that your choices here are between two tracks and nothing. Go to the hearing, swallow hard, and voice your support for the two track line. Or write a letter too that effect.
There is standing on principle, and then there's foolishness...
What did Mr. X say?
"one thing I know for a fact... QUEENS doesnt want it,they hate the V,AND THEY HATE THE ARCHER AVE SUBWAY[the way it is now]"
Going beyond the fact that you know no such thing, did Mr. X say any of that?
First and foremost was, that if it doesn't serve Queens in some way, they (the Civic Council) will not support it. They already still feel screwed from the last two major Transit projects in Queens- the 63rd St Connector and the Archer Ave Extension/Jamaica El Replacement. AAmong his requests were that the SAS be enabled for both A and B Division equipment (either platform extensions or door saddle extensions) and that the 7 Express be turned south onto the SAS at 42nd St, while the 7 local continues to Times Square.
Mr X, regular at these meetings, had one complaint that was on topic - the lack of express tracks. The remaining 4m20s was RANT, RANT, RANT.
What's this supposed to mean? The last two major Transit projects were in Queens. Manhattan isn't allowed to get one, for a change?
That's all well and good, but if more rail is offered to them, how would MTA do that so they don't turn around and NIMBY it to death?
There are a couple of projects which could be done relatively NIMBY free:
1) Extend Hillside Av line 2 miles or so.
2) Extend the J train along Archer Avenue a ways (would help fix the problem that the extension did not go far enough).
Now what? Would residents be willing to take a new subway through central Queens, such as along the LIE? A new line to Bayside?
It's a fine New York tradition to rant at the MTA; it's also a fine tradition to be a hypocrite and refuse to accept responsibility for one's own actions. The masters of this art live mostly in Queens.
For 30 years, Queens' terms did not include the subway, since it would attract "those people." Guess what, those people moved in anyway, and Queens is now the most diverse borough in the city.
But since transportation improvments take 30 years, what Queens is scheduled to get is more commuter rail service via ESA. Commuter rail is too expensive for "those people," which is why they wanted it. Now they complain?
There IS hidden trackage under Hillside, unfinished sections on Hillside as far east as to Little Neck Parkway. Only a huge wall seperates non-revenue, layup trackage from the unfinished sections, stations I also think ARE there but NYCT is keeping a low profile on this.
: )
Mark
You must be talking about the No Homers.
I think MTA could get the subway up as far as St. Albans without too much political opposition. As you get closer to Gelen Oaks, though, the loudmouths get more politically powerful, and it takes a lot more to buy them off.
Hmmm. Are you talking about a take-over of the LIRR line there? That got me thinking of the earlier plans for a "super express" on the branch through Locust Manor. It would have been feasible only if there was a train capable of co-existing with the LIRR service. That's a damn busy R.O.W. I don't know if it could be shared. To cut it off completely and shunt all the LIRR branches there (Far Rockaway, West Hempstead, Long Beach and Bablylon/Montauk) through the line through Springfield Gardens would be really pushing it.
Unless you're thinking about putting a subway under Linden Blvd? THAT would really change the face of that part of Queens. Connecting with the Archer Avenue line, it would do a great deal to improve the conditions there. Be good for Jamaica too.
Probably because it's impossible for a subway under Hillside Avenue to run through St. Albans.
Right now all Queens Village has is one LIRR stop, non-ADA. The residents need and would like subway service. As you progress through Hollis though, you get closer to the NIMBYS.
--Mark
On the real, they do NOT have enough rail and have to depend on buses, especially those on eastern Queens. However people won't be satisfied so if that's how it is then tough let them stay with no subways and it will let them know what they're missing out on.
I have news for you. Queens is famous for having "councils" who pretend to represent the borough. When AirTrain was debated the Southeast Queens Concerned Neighbors had 24 people who didn't like the project pretending to represent their neighborhood. They did not represent the neighborhood (esp. since the airline paid to truck in guinea pigs to the hearing).
The "Civic Congress" of which Trent is Treasurer, pretends to represent an aglommeration of homeowners' associations. In reality, it wouldn't surprise me if the only people who share his opinion are his chihuahua and a few buddies who serve as President and Vice President. Most homeowners in his "constituency" wouldn't know who he is if they tripped over him, never mind actually knowing what he advocates on their "behalf." It's pretty laughable, all in all.
But he is entitled to express his opinion, of course.
And what is the big deal about Archer Ave being a bad bet? If not for Archer Ave, them Downtown Jamaica would not be like it is today, a gleaming mix of office buildings, brand name and small buisness stores, and first run entertainment at a huge movie complex.
"And what is the big deal about Archer Ave being a bad bet? If not for Archer Ave, them Downtown Jamaica would not be like it is today, a gleaming mix of office buildings, brand name and small buisness stores, and first run entertainment at a huge movie complex."
I agree with you.
However, I do wish the MTA could extend the lower level (the J subway) another several blocks at least, if not more. The loss of subway service to 168th Street (it ends now at the level of 153 St) is the source of a legitimate complaint though we shouldn't take it too far). Extending the J some more would help revitalize an area where there is still some blight further away from the Parsons terminal.
The E was designed to be extended to Rosedale via the LIRR. It would be nice if the curving tunnel could be extended a bit more, and perhaps one or two more stations built in that direction. This would help bring subway service to a neighborhood that needs it, and never had it before.
While it IS a disappointment, I agree with you they could of left the J terminating at 121 St and do nothing about it. If it at LEAST went to around 168 St, then it won't be as bad.
Damn I wish I heard Mr X speak, as edwards said he was explosive and used profanity, Kool-D I hope you didn't use any profanity LOL ;-).
However, the Borough Prez and other groups, like the Straphangers and Congresswoman Maloney's office, along with Sheldon Silver's office, have been doing a lot of outreach, and the Task Force is still active. So this hearing will certainly function as designed.
But you guys should go.
I have submitted written testimony already.
I'd say that's an argument that could backfire. It's entirely reasonable to fear that money spent on the SAS will just disappear down a rat hole a la the Beame Shuffle. Transit funding for Sunbelt cities, in contrast, is almost certain to be used for its intended purpose.
New York can go to HELL, but Orlando's got four jets overlying 24 a day. Oh yeah, sorry ... Rush didn't bother to approve this liberal claptrap for release ... Clinton's fault, sorry ... and HEY ... Osama is living in Tenneesee ... whoops, they NEED the bucks.
So, that's why the tornado hit in Tenneesee.......
Didn't know Shrub can control the weather.
And, to be "on topic"...
Baltimore will complete the entire Baltimore Rail Plan (more subway, LRV lines) before the SAS sees a train.
The SAS plan a few years back included only the "stubway." The two most notable public comments were that it didn't run the length of Manhattan, and that there wasn't a station at 116th St. Both have been rectified. So I wouldn't say that public hearings are, by definition, dominated by NIMBYs.
This is one project I don't think NIMBYs can kill--although there are plenty of other factors that could.
Check out the story on the SAS in today's Daily News. Look at what it says. Look at what it doesn't say. Look at what the headline is. It isn't "East Side Hell! LIRR to Grand Central Without Second Avenue Would Jam City Residents."
Only reason that "stappies" are invited to hearings is that they ante up more CASH for polticos than Bombardier ... C'MON, New Yorkers! When someone's in your face saying "I don't remember how to GET there and so far, ain't seen anything larger than a $5 ..."
To quote the movie, "SPEED" ... what DO you do? WHAT do you DO?" :)
If you ain't paid MORE for the politico, what DO you do? The PROPER answer is a Class *A* felony. :)
I agree, they shouldn't keep this cherade going wirh the SAS if they put it aside for the FOURTH time, then you know it wasn't meant to be and people will be stuck with the M15 on the far east side with no other option in TERMS of riding public transportation.
4) Conspiracy: If ESA goes ahead and at least the northern half of the Second Avenue does not, no one should believe that this wasn't the plan all along. Is it a coincidence that ESA is going first, and now they are saying they are out of money.
If THAT IS THE CASE, then they obviously weren't serious about making the full length 2 Av subway to begin with but in the past there were plans where north of 63rd was going to be built and then connected to Broadway while it would make more sense to just build it full length. IMO, the line should be a 4 track trunk line in the first place it adds more capacity and would provide faster service and sihpons riders off the Lexington Av line thereby reducing the overstuffed crowdingf there. If you look at the M15 that is a OVERWORKED route in the first place, basically known as the busiest bus route in the country.
I will be at the SAS hearing at Bowling Green today. For anyone else who does not know me, I will be wearing a blue coat, white shirt and LOUDEST MOUTH. And everyone is welcome at some interesting pictures I took that show NYCT a lack of oversight in their management and operation of the largest railroad network in the country. Stations Department, in particular, should be interested in what I have in store.
See you there my Brighton buddy and other Subtalkers who may be attending also.
The closest subway exit at Bowling is the P/T booth where you get out at the center of platform from the Uptown train, not the escalators going down then up.
It should be pointed out, by the way, that even the aborted 1970s plan was not 4 tracks.
I would hesitate to criticize the project as now proposed in a public hearing. Remember, those who want the money to go elsewhere are looking for an excuse to kill it.
But I will point out that the RPA proposed a route across 43rd Street to New Jersey to link into the SAS. It would go down Second Avenue, then out to Jamaica via the Atlantic Branch, to bring NJT riders to Grand Central and LIRR AND MetroNorth riders downtown.
The EIS rejects the spur from Grand Central, on the grounds that it couldn't supply as many trains traveling as few stops as the Lex, so Grand Central commuters would not use it. But that is because the suburban service would be jamming on the same line, and making all the same stops, as the city service for neighborhoods up and down the East Side.
If the line was four tracks S. of Grand Central, with the Grand Central spur the express, then MetroNorth commuters would take it instead of the Lex, freeing up even more Lexington Avenue capacity. Moreover, only the stretch from 42nd to Delancy would have to be four tracks. The "local" tracks could be connected to the Nassau Loop, with the "express" tracks for the suburbanites traveling on to Water Street and Brooklyn. The RPA proposed both connections, but they also proposed just two tracks, leading to the EIS dismissal of their proposal.
That's exactly how I constructed it in my BAHN layout of the SAS.
Express maniacs won't want to transfer to a local; they'll stay on the 4/5.
But the local stops aren't terribly close together, and many local passengers will find that they're closer to the 6 than to the SAS, even if they're east of 3rd.
I do realize that there is no funding available right now for a four-track line. That doesn't mean that no funding will ever be available. IMO, the line should be constructed as a two-track line under either the east half or the west half of 2nd Avenue, with stations spaced reasonably for local stations. That way, at a later date, the two-track line could be twinned under the other half of 2nd Avenue and a full four-track local-express line would result.
But from all I've seen, the process has progressed beyond this stage, and the only chance of this happening is if the line is cancelled (for the, what, fourth time?) and pursued again in another few decades.
You sure got that right!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
The increased crowding on the Lexington Ave line and the lack of development on the entire East Side of Manhattan in the No Build condition won't be discussed?
http://cbsnewyork.com/topstories/topstoriesny_story_132071810.html
(click on the "Marlie Hall reports" link)
I'm speaking today, I'm usually on the straphangers board under the same name, but I finally got my password back on here and thought I'd share the info on here too. I'll have a blue suit on and my name's Pat. Hope to see many of you there!
You can have the RF window, I will look at the NYC skyline at night (still dark at 6 AM at that time in February)
A lot of us Subtalkers will brave the cold (hopefully not too much snow) and do the railfanning thing.
We will know the date a least a month in advance, GET READY FRED!
BTW: hope the Fred and Bob show will be a huge success this weekend in the city of Angels, when is the tour coming to NYC?
Does East 241st st have as much ridership as Main St or Jamaica Center? Clearly not. And when the #5 trains have to start and end at East 241th st, where do they have to go to lay-up? There is no direct yard lead from 241st, the yard lead is facing north at 238th st. So, under the old system, the #5 train would have to go to East 238th st, then the T/O will have to go to the other side to put-in at 241st. Pain in the ass as we call it.
One stop short to create better service on the #2 and #5 lines by a quick put-in or discharge at 238th st won't affect overall service on the East 241st st branch. I could see your gripe if the #5 train started/ended at say, Gun Hill, but the #5 specials cover about 95% of all passengers on that branch seeking a one-train (not one-seat I might add) ride into Manhattan's CBD.
Yes I do, I also heard that part of the reason involved budget cuts by PATURKEY(politics and rail transit on topic can mix!), of course why else would they do that for years and just decide one day to cut service
241st street has more riders than 238th Street(Nereid should just be confined to east of WPR, while 238th should be west, look at the building addresses)
Actually, the #5 line modfication was the only service "cut" from NYCT on that day (1994, IIRC), to me it was to improve service to the 241st st terminal, since more people use 241st than 238 as you correctly mentioned.
On a bus subject, I believe that more 40/41 buses from Mount Vernon should go to East 241st st.
The Bx41 would serve Mount Vernon better, it has Metrocard, and it may be running 24/7 soon!
Yes it was axed in the budget cuts BUT it was also done to relieve congestion at 241 St since it was so similar to Flatbush Av, 2 tracks, 2 lines and trains would get backed up.
I agree with whoever said that a westward extension across 125th St would be desirable. Clearly the alignment has been designed to make this possible in the future, but let's get the main part of it built first. For a project so-often delayed, obviously there's a large contingent who'll never believe it till they see it. Same deal concerning a possible alignment to Brooklyn.
I've finally been brought round to AIM's point of view that express service, as a time-saver, is over-rated on most routes. Even on a pretty long run--say, 168th/CPW to Euclid Avenue--you'd be surprised how little time is saved by the express vs. the local. The main benefit of express service is that it doubles the tph. I am not sure that the projected ridership of the SAS justifies that. And it's worth bearing in mind that the projected SAS stations are farther apart than on most of the older lines.
It's my view too, but David Greenberger is the most articulate expounder.
Though on the Lex if I'm going downtown at 59th I will often take the stairs down because the odds are in my favor that way. But at places where I have a choice between local and express, I will almost always take what comes first.
Given that they've learned a lot from the mistakes of the early 20th century, I wouldn't be surprised if the SAS gets from 125th to Wall faster than the 4/5. No sharp curves, modern signaling system, etc. Also, of course, no station with the immense on/off traffic that GCT produces.
I'm surprised that a station on the LIRR tunnel east of Penn Station hasn't been considered for a Second Avenue connection. Something like Woodhaven on the Brooklyn Branch.
1. How many people passed the last open competitive T/O test?
2. Of these, how many were called from the list?
3. How long did they have to wait from the day of the test until the day of hire?
4. Down to what exam score on the list did they reach before they stopped calling from that list?
5. The current open competitive exam notice states that a promotional exam is being given as well, and that "the names appearing on the promotion list will be considered first..." Was that true last time as well?
4 - Since they usually attempt to exhaust the list, they probably called down to whatever the passing score was (70? 75?).
3 - A minimum of 6 months from day of test to hire, but probably closer to a year for the first person to be called. With a Promotional this time, they can start calling people provisionally within two months or so from the promotees, so plan on much longer for O/C list to start getting called.
1 - Somewhere between half and three-quarters of those who took it.
2 - Probably all those who passed the test AND met all the necessay requirements.
You left out the needed question - Of those called from the list, how many were actually hired? Somewhere in the area of 2500 were hired. Being called from the list does not equate with being hired. People do get disqualified for medical reasons, background checks, no apparent reason at all and a host of other reasons.
IIRC, about 12000 people passed the last test, 8000 of which continued to show interest.
I don't see the TA breaking policy and giving a simple test to their current employees. Their promotionals usually require knowledge of the title the promo is for (at least of later tests).
If you have enough seniority to pick a two tripper(second trip to New Lots) on the 4 next pick, take it. Those are great. You should even have time to go to Mosholu for a bite to eat. You'll log much less cab time than you would on the 6. The 6 line is not so great on weekends anymore. Many jobs are 6:15 cab time AND A LAY UP!!! Compare this to the 1 line, where you log about 5:30 cab time, and a lay up. I'd rather work the 1 based on these numbers. But it's too far from home.
Management is great on the 4 line. The PM T/D is a good guy. So are the TSS's. Maybe you should look into WDL one or two days a week, as long as you don't have to do three trips.
"You do your job, I'll do mine."
Easy cure for stress. :)
And the T/Os with a real bad attitude I made sure to hold the doors more than 10 seconds.
The higher you score, the sooner they'll call you. Last test was given in the winter of 2000, and the first class was hired in the winter of 2001.
I know one T/O who has had several conversations with the Union about jumping to the B this summer. I remember when I told him, "Hey, looks like another summer of driving to the Bronx". He said, "I'm calling my Union". As much as I hate paying the tolls, gas, and dealing with traffic, I realize that I make so much more than most Road Extra T/O's in the B, so the TA is kind of helping me cover my expenses. One day on the board has just paid two weeks of tolls.
Everything else is penalty work.
People who don't, its hell. GOs can easily make the trip upward of 3 hours.
R-32
It's true that Lower East Side community groups have long argued for the line to be "cheated" eastward to better serve Alphabet City, and I expect that comment to be made at the public hearings. But the MTA is well of that argument, and I doubt that it will carry the day. The transfers to the B/D/F/V are too important.
Houston and Second Ave.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
subway grrl
--Mark
If you proposed it now (though no one has ,,, yet) you could use the V train to run some sort of bizarre loop from Houston-2nd to 14th-8th -- I'd love to hear the transfer announcement at 14th St. and Sixth Ave. -- but that would eliminate the option to send the V to Church Ave.
I would have no problem painting late at night or weekends in largely unobtrusive locations.
Any suggestions?
R-32
Other 007 films with some scenes on trains were:
-You Only Live Twice (the Underground private subway car)
-Live and Let Die (NYC subway entrance to 2,3 lines at 125th st. And the final sequence with the guy with the metal arm.)
-The Spy Who Loved Me (Moore gets bitten by Jaws)
-Octopussy (the circus train)
And did Sean Connery starred in another film with the same train "Murder on the Orient Express"?
Wow, Total Victory? I haven't heard that kind of rhetoric since Communism in the former Soviet Union.
Of course, should they have problems they will blame it on interference from the U.S. capitalists.
Sorry to make fun of a bad situation, but I couldn't resist. Shoot me.
Peace,
ANDEE
Seriously though this SARS has gotten that bad over there in the far East and now it s a mandatory procedure, at least for now.
Chaohwa
Now really, if someone were to offer you a free trip to Taipei, you'd be off in a flash, SARS or no SARS. Just think about being in a place where all the chix are "mystical."
It's not so new, having been there since 1936 -- just another thing the Grand St. whiners failed to realize in 2001.
Whining got the largely redundant Grand Street shuttle put into service. Squeaky (subway) wheels get the grease.
If Grand only had scissor switches, then the B and D could of terminated there and the 'silly' shuttle wouldn't have came to light. You think that's bad what about the moronic shuttle bus from Dekalb-Canal, just a waste of operating costs.
These losses are particiularily grevious as WAYNE was the last open Reading RR tower and BROAD contained a huge 131 level US&S model 14 machine. Moreover, unline ZOO or STATE or DOCK, which have similarly sized machines, BROAD was virtually unchanged from its configuration in PRR days. Many times I had been tempted to venture up the spiral staircase and visit BROAD, but I never felt enough urgency.
I am still unsure why SEPTA made this move as we all know they have no $$ and it didn't seem to save them any manpower as each tower has been effectivly replaced by a dispatching desk on a 1 to 1 basis. Furthermore, WAYNE and WIND were essentially rebuilt about 10-13 years ago to CTC the entire Reading division and probably had quite a good number of years left in them. I do not know the location of the new dispatching center, but there is a chance that it might be located in the old Wayne towre building, but I highly doubt it.
With NORTH PHILADELPHIA teetering on the edge of closure, Philly has gone from a surviving bastion of tower oprations to a virtually wasteland in under a year. With the demise of SEPTA's tower system only the LIRR remains as the last tower controled railroad in the nation.
Why do I not think this is a good thing for Long Island?
I do agree there are some drawbacks, which you have pointed out.
CSX controls most of the East Coast from its control center in Jacksonville. Amtrak controls most everything on the NEC from 30th Street Station.
If LIRR decides to go the same route eventually, I'm not going to cry about it.
Will any of the SEPTA towers or their equipment, like the US&S machine, be preserved for a museum?
NJT rebuilt its Hoboken Terminal Tower in 1984 and both Grand Central and Penn Station are controled by onsite control centers. The Amtrak Philadelphia terminal is controled by the CTEC 5 desk situated right above the old PENN tower office and Washungton Union Station is controled by the recently modernized K Tower.
Computer network technologies might actually make "towers" a feasible. Exemplified by MNRR's SS75 in New Haven, the whole system is basically run of windows NT PC's, but the SS75 operator can tap into the feed of the entire New Haven line and see the status of the entire railroad. It would not be a great leap to have auxilliary control stations where temporary operators can log in and out of control as they are needed. This would have on having to staff the interlocking 24/7, would would allow for flexibility to handle peak loads where the normal dispatcher becomes over worked. As the whole system can be run off of a PC hooked into the signaling network, you no longer need a central dispatching office to keep costs down. As railroads will always have distributed personel points for yard operators, MoW or C&S crews, the ability to have any one of these placed double as a part time control station should not be ignored.
Anyway, there are more than a few towers that will probably not close. These include SS75 in New Haven, K Tower at Washington, Lake St and Jackson St in chicago and F Tower in Fostoria. Most of not all of these have been converted to computer based video game style interlocking machines.
Given the amount of photos of realtively obscure stations that are in existence (such as Westbridge on the LIRR), I'm a little surprised that no one has a photo of this one.
About Canal Broadway being called Broadway - yes that is true. The tablets said "Broadway" and the icons were "B". The tile has been covered and recovered and ultimately removed - BUT - there IS still a vestige of it. The pattern in the passageway from the BMT to the IRT station still contains the "Canal Broadway" 1918 Vickers design. And yes, some of the original tile is still there, alongside faithful recent recreations.
wayne
Apart from the general trend of closing Queens stations, it used to be a transfer point to the Rockaway line. When that closed, the Woodhaven station's fate was likely sealed.
If the sidewalks were re-done at some time since the station's closing, all traces of the entrances probably would have been hidden beneath the new concrete. I am sort of surprised that the entrances were not retained as emergency escape stairwells.
wayne
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?img_19989.jpg
So where does the underground station, which is being discussed on this string, fit into all this? Were there TWO Woodhaven stations? Was there one on the Rockaway line and one on the Brooklyn-to-Jamaica line?
Also, I recall that one day in the summer of 1972 when I was in junior high, my mom was driving us somewhere along the Van Wyck when she stopped off at the Stevens Dodge car dealership on Atlantic Ave in Richmond Hill. While she was inside, my brother and I wandered off to explore the neighborhood for a few minutes. We wandered down into an underground LIRR station, which was freely accessable by stairs from the street. The station was extremely dark, dusty and spooky, and appeared to be abandoned. Could this have been the "underground" Woodhaven station in question?
Can someone also tell me where the above-ground elevated station would be located, in relation to Stevens Dodge and the underground station that my brother and I explored that day?
2 ran underground along Atlantic Avenue All-The-Way-From Flatbush Ave to just past 120 Street where it came above ground to enter Jamaica Station.
The 2 lines intersected on Atlantic Ave around 99-100 Sts. At one time there was a connection for trains coming from Flatbush Ave to turn south onto the Rockaway Line. The ROW is now a yard for a school bus company. Once upon a time there was a doorway for people to go downstairs and watch trains going back and forth. I don't know when the stairway was sealed off. But it was several years after trains no longer stopped there.
What a rush! To stand there as trains go by at 70mph! I want in!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
As Douce Man mentioned there were two Woodhaven stations, both of which are abandoned now. The Woodhaven station that started this thread (the abandoned underground one on the still in use Brooklyn line), is not the one that the thread turned into (the connecting above ground one on the abandoned Rockaway line).
The station you stumbled into was more than likely the at the time still in use underground Woodhaven station that few photos of exist. If it was 1972, it was indeed still an in use station, dim probably because it still used incandescent bulbs (much like many subway stations used also at the time). It was freely accessable because all LIRR stations are freely accessable, you don't need to pay a fare to enter LIRR stations. You either buy a ticket at the station to give to the conductor on the train, or buy it on the train if there is no ticket office (or in current times no vending machine or ticket office). The fact that it was little used and a freely accessable underground station also probably contributed to it's demise. I couldn't imagine a someone waiting alone there for a train, much less a woman alone, in a dark, little used underground station that was freely accessable to anyone.
I read here that the LIRR used to have a police officer on duty in the station during the few of times each day that trains were scheduled to use it.
You're right, I've noticed that too. Maybe there have been some incidents at the station.
Actually, I have used the East New York-Atlantic Ave L connection as late as 11:30 at night and I have seen the police car parked between the ENY station and the Atlantic stairway.
Is that because East New York station is considered dangerous, or it is simply a convenient place to have a unit stationed for quick response elsewhere.
Actually, I think the area's starting to improve a bit. Although I must say, that like you, I've not minded using the LIRR-L connection either.
All of the Ronkonkoma trains end there, as that's the electrification limit. Only a few diesels head further east.
Good point. It would have to be a lot busier to make it attractive to anyone at all. Yes, clearly a chicken and egg problem.
I always look for it when I'm passing by on the train. I like the idea that once upon a time it was normal to wait on dimly-lit platforms. It was part of the experience. What could happen...?
After Chambers Street it's probably my favorite "subway" station. It's unique. I like the simple design of it. It's on the only commuter railroad line to come into New York City but not Manhattan.
(On what I believe is the fastest scheduled intra-city, uh, intra-boro railroad passenger service. Faster then on the LIRR Mainline through Queens, faster than the M.N. Bronx services, maybe even G.C.T. to 125th. Yet it is underutilized. That's not right.)
Be nice if Woodhaven could be re-opened. The neighborhood missed out by not having the LIRR row used for the airport link. I think Woodhaven would be considered a place that is worthy of keeping up. For one thing, plenty of people ride to Forest Hills and Woodside from Long Island. Woodhaven has plenty of potential. And it would be good to make this railroad line host viable active communities. The effects would ripple up and down the row. Would people be willing to pay the higher fare to get to downtown Brooklyn? That's a good question. At least, it would be a small but definite plus for organizations considering opening up for business there. I think that would be a relaxed commute, if I lived in Woodhaven and worked on Court Street or MetroTech. There's always seats on the Brooklyn trains. I'd get a Mail-N-Ride automatic monthly ticket and never even think about fumbling for my MetroCard. Walk over to the staion on Atlantic Ave., bam E.N.Y., bam Nostrand Ave., boom, Flatbush Terminal. A brisk walk up the Avenue, or jump on a bus, or a stop or two on any subway....I'm at work. It'd be the best commute in the city.
The neighborhood missed out by not having the LIRR row used for the airport link.
I agree totally. The Rockaway line was the one seat ride to JFK that everyone is takling about AirTrain lacks. IF they had not abandoned the Rockaway line, both the LIRR AND THE SUBWAY could have both had a one seat ride to JFK - they just threw it away.
The LIRR could have abandoned it's Service east of Howard Beach, and still given that over to the subway system. The LIRR could have run as it had from the mainline at WhitePot, down the Rockaway line making stops at Rego Park, Brooklyn Manor/Jamaica Avenue, Parkside/Metropolitan Ave, Woodhaven Blvd/Atlantic Ave, Ozone Park, and once at the Liberty el continued Nonstop on the center tracks, and then diverged off and into JFK. They could also have made some connection at the mainline coming from the east, so Jamaica trains could also have accessed the Rockaway/JFK Branch opening it up to all of Long Island and the city.
The subway A train could have used the outer tracks and come off the Liberty el just like it does now stopping at North Conduit, Howard Beach, and tghen also divere off the ROW to the Airport. The C train could have run like the A train does now to Far Rockaway.
Were these people blind back then when they abandoned service? How could they have let such a valuable and useful line meet the fate it did. It boggles the mind. There would be no need for Airtrain now. My plan would only have required an eastern flying connection at Whitepot Junction for Jamaic trains, and flying junction at Howard beach for both the LIRR on the center tracks, and the A train on the outer tracks, along with the route to the airport itself. It's a real loss.
My plan would only have required an eastern flying connection at Whitepot Junction for Jamaica trains, and flying junction at Howard beach for both the LIRR on the center tracks, and the A train on the outer tracks, along with the route to the airport itself. It's a real loss.
just a thought
Possibly. East New York and Nostrand Avenue seem to do okay, especially with reverse commuters. One thing that might be a problem with Woodhaven is that it's fairly far from the nearest subway station.
Well, I think that type of utilization on the LIRR city lines should be encouraged. Again, I think the Flatbush Terminal line is shockingly underused. If Woodhaven were to re-open I feel it would make the branch much more useful for city folk as well as LI commuters. Someone mentioned that it is far from subway connections. I think that is a point in its favor....but that means there would have to be more development at the stations. Esp. ENY and Woodhaven. Make them better destinations, people will be going there. Woodhaven could use a neighborhood-style refresh anyway. But the basic pattern of the streets is sound. It could handle a higher residential density. Say, clustered around the station so neighborhood NIMBYs would have less to bitch about.
I mean, Woodhaven should at least be at the level of a Kew Gardens neighborhood.
Can you explain what you're talking about? Aren't there free transfers and the 20% bonus, so that bus + subway costs $1.67? Even round trip is only $3.33.
Each MetroCard fare paid on the subway comes with one free transfer to the bus.
wayne
---Choo Choo
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Uhmm, I know. Everyone is so picky. When you are walking here:
it feels like a forest, and I don't care if it's a residential neighborhood, when you are standing on the ROW and this station:
it is secluded and deserted, and no one can see you. By using "forest" I was just using a play on words.
Geesh, everyone has to be so technical.
john
Actually, the Rockaway branch was never "formally" abandoned, that is why the rails were kept in place, unlike other "formal" abandonments when shortly after they remove the ties and rails (like the LIRR Wading RIver Branch, Central Branch, etc). I guess it's safe to say though that the Rockaway branch is "abandoned" even if not formally...no trains running through there in the near future either physically or politically.
john
john
Also at Jamaica Ave where Brooklyn Manor was, the LIRR line is above ground. IIRC the grade elimation project along there was somewhere (I think) in the 1910's. The next time I'm over there I have to look at the date stones.
Yes, it is 1956 (1958 is a typo). LIRR service was truncated to Ozone Park on October 2, 1955, at which time LIRR service betwwen Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park also seems to have ended. IND took over in 1956.
Also at Jamaica Ave where Brooklyn Manor was, the LIRR line is above ground. IIRC the grade elimation project along there was somewhere (I think) in the 1910's. The next time I'm over there I have to look at the date stones.
You may be correct, I don't know when the grade crossing elimination project happened on the Rockaway line. The LIRR is indeed above ground at Brooklyn manor, but the high level platform was removed in 1958 and changed to a low level platform.
The grade crossing project I mentioned earlier at Woodhaven station on the Rockaway line was indeed done in the 1940's as part of the Atlantic line grade crossing elimination project, not the Rockaway grade elimination project, which was indeed done much earlier.
On May 8th, 1950, a major fire destroyed significant portions of the [Jamaica Bay Trestle] structure. The LIRR was not in solid financial shape at that time, and decided not to rebuild the line. The LIRR had been trying to sell the Rockaway Beach branch within the City limits to the New York City Transit System (and later the Authority) for many years.
On September 5th, 1952, the TA purchased the Rockaway Beach branch and the line in the Rockaways within the City limits from the LIRR for $8.5 million, considered a "steal" at the time. On June 12th, 1952, replacement of the wooden trestles over Jamaica Bay began. The TA gave a target date of July 1st, 1956, for the opening day. The IND Fulton Street Line would connect to the Fulton St. El east of City Line, and at Rockaway Blvd, a 2-track connection to the new IND Rockaway Line would be made. The original plan for the connection with the Queens Line at 63rd Drive would not come to pass. LIRR service to Rockaway Park via Far Rockaway ended on October 2nd, 1955. Between October 3rd, 1955 and June 8th, 1956, the elevated trackage in the Rockaways was converted for operation by the IND. The terminal station at Mott Avenue was severed from the LIRR. Former LIRR stations at "The Raunt", Goose Creek and Hamilton Beach were eradicated when the IND took over.
Despite a strike at Westinghouse that threatened late delivery of electrical equipment, the TA met its milestone. (The electrical equipment was borrowed from the Dyre Ave line). On June 9th, 1956, the first IND clearance train left the Fulton Street El bound for the Rockaways. On June 28th, 1956, the first official train left Howard Beach at 5:30pm, dressed with a "Rockaway, Here We Come" sign. It was not of the standard R-10 types; for this occasion, the first train would consist of newer equipment, the R-16s, even though they didn't provide normal service on the line. The R-10s couldn't operate on the line initially because of the power equipment problems as a result of the Westinghouse strike; standard IND R-1/9s provided the service for the first few months. These additional R-1/9s cars needed to be fitted with windshield wipers, in addition to those cars already providing D service over the Culver Line in Brooklyn. Initial R-1/9 service had speed restrictions due to the power "shortage".
For a time, the Rockaway Line was considered a separate division of the NYC Transit System, called the Rockaway Division. Until the mid-70s, an extra fare of 15 cents was collected at Broad Channel. While the E train provided service on the line, it was the longest rapid transit run in New York City (over 36 miles); in the late 50s, some said this was the world's longest rapid transit run. The extra fare was required until September 1st, 1975, when the fare became 50 cents anywhere on the transit system.
Mott Avenue was not yet open when IND Rockaway service began; the temporary terminal was Beach 25th St / Wavecrest. Mott Avenue opened in June of 1958. The remaining portion of the LIRR Rockaway Beach branch north of the Fulton Street El was abandoned by the LIRR on June 8th, 1962. While talk of resurrecting this line for JFK airport service surfaces from time to time, the ROW north of the Liberty Avenue El continues to remain unused to this day.
--Mark
I never knew that, I figured it was because no one could be bothered removing them.
Douce, I tried to answer your question three times....LIRR service was cut back to Ozone Park on Oct 2, 1955, at which time LIRR service between Wavecrest and Rockaway Park (via Valley Stream) also ended. The IND took over in 1956, a total of about 9 months or so.
...into the woods we go...
Some parts are fenced off but we still found our way around by just getting do a street, cross the street, and rejoin the unfenced ROW. =)
wayne
Woodhaven station looked like a cross between Beach 90-Holland on the IND and Locust Manor on the Atlantic LIRR line.
wayne
-Mark
There is also another great color photo on page 76.
As for Hamilton Beach, it wasn't wood or concrete. There's a photo from 1952 on page 33-34 that shows it as a low level dirt/cinder platform. I couldn't find anything on Broad Channel or Howard Beach.
As for Aqueduct and North Conduit Ave, they are original LIRR platforms (just like Wavecrest to Rockaway Park). I still don't know why some stations like those got concrete platforms (with the exception of Woodhaven which got it's concrete platform built by the Pennsylvania RR when they put the Atlantic Branch underground), and others kept the old Platforms (like Brooklyn Manor, Parkside, Broad Channel, etc.
wayne
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=undefined&item=2414503391.
Peace,
ANDEE
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Peace,
ANDEE
They don't look like any PCC cars I know off.
Umm... are you joking?? :^)
At one time, New Jersey was laced with many trollies. General Motors bought the operators out bringing in buses...just like NYC. Some of the old trollies survived...as part of peoples homes and diners. Mr. Tandy would have been far better off with electric buses running the catenary line...of course the wires are unsightly and restrict truck height. In Dayton, Ohio, the system runs these buses with a 32 foot turning radius competing with street traffic..no tracks. CI Peter
BTW, who were Marvin and Obie?
-Robert King
Also I've included here, the summary of the project by chapter:
General Introduction
This section covers my fascination with trains, how it evolved and how it led to the ambitious transit project
Chapter 1: Introduction to the Transit Project
This chapter will describe the focus of the project itself. It points out the goal of providing more subway coverage for the city as well as providing service to the suburbs. There are descriptions of current problems the current subway system faces and possible solutions that are implemented in the alternate reality of the transit project.
Chapter 2: Expasnion of the Current Routes
This chapter focuses on the extension of the current routes in both the A and B Divisions of the current system, which are all affected in some way by the larger system that is presented here. The chapter also describes the use and need of additional route markers and lines which were discontinued that continue to play a role in transit operation. Also included are ROW's of selected rail lines that now feature subway routings.
Chapter 2 was the result of three original documents that I've produced for last year's railfan audience that has been merged together into one document.
Chapter 3: Trunk Lines
This chapter gets into the heart of the project, by listing all the trunk lines of this much larger alternate subway system. This is chapter is one of the longer chapters in the project and one of the original documents I have produced for last year's group of railfans. Every line and possible connection is included, covering all five boroughs, and surburban counties in New York, New Jersey and Connecticut.This chapter includes an Appendix, which is also of extended length covering details of information in regard to the trunk lines. Many interesting aspects of transit operation are found in the Chapter 3 Appendix, which is divided into five smaller appendices. A comprehensive listing of river tunnels, shuttle routes, track connections between the A and B Divsions as well as to commuter and freight trackeage and other intriguing things are found in the Appendix. Note that any remaining general transit information is included in Appendix A at the end of the project. (see below) Chapter 3 now includes a introduction in regard to the context of the document.
This appendix, which was another original document for last year's railfan audience will be mailed with Chapter 3.
Chapter 4: The Route Markers and Routing Information
This chapter lists all the route markers that are used in the transit project and markers not used. Following the table of route markers are routes themselves, with listings of terminals, trunk lines, operation times, rolling stock each route uses and the yards each route uses.
Chapter 5: Rolling Stock, Yards and Equipment--Part 1, 2 and 3
Chapter 5 also delves into the heart of the project by providing a comprehensive lists of rolling stock used in the transit project. This Chapter primarily consists of tables that lists all the cars used and that are in service. Each car class has been expanded to at least twice its size. This chapter is one of the longest in the project, and because I found that composing this all this information added up over time, the chapter is divided into three parts. The first part is completed, the other two I'm still working on while I'm completing Chapter 4. What you may find when reading this chapter is the overwhelming number of cars used, but I've got around the capacity issues somewhat by introducing a system of car transference from one yard to another--which will all be explained in this chapter. As I'm certain every railfan has a favorite car--real or fictional--you will be sure to find it in this chapter.
Subway yards are listed in this chapter also, and there are a lot of them.
Like Chapter 3, this chapter also features a brief introduction and an Appendix at the end. The Chapter 5 Appendix covers prewar cars listed for both the IRT and BMT and additional general information about rolling stock that wasn't covered in the main chapter and the chaining codes used for the additional trunk lines.
Chapter 6: Station Design and Architecture
This chapter covers some intriguing designs of underground station design. Some elevated and grade/cut/embankment stations are covered too. Also covered are a more detailed expansion of the IND color coded station tile system and more creative designs on the moaics motifs and wall signs on the IRT and BMT.
Chapter 7: A Fictional History of the New York City
(later Metro Area) Subway System
This chapter, aslo covers the heart of the project and supports one of the main points of the project: subway development in New York under different circumstances, different attitudes, a different spin on politics, finances and social concerns. Chapter 7 will be entirely in a fictional context using realistic facts and events for support and as a foundation to illustrate transit development in another reality.
Chapter 8: Commuter Rail and Light Rail--Further Development and Expansion of the LIRR, Metro North, NJ Transit and the new Light Rail System
Though the prime objective of this project is the subway, the project does not leave out commuter rail. As part of mass transit system, I felt it was integral to include further development of the three commuter rail systems in the Metro Area to supplement subway expansion to the suburbs in the form of more transfers and more inter-regional traveling options. The inclusion of commuter rail in the project also provides a single large mass transit entity consisting of subway and commuter rail designed to cover the entire New York City Metropolitan Area within a 75 mile radius. It is set up so that the subways serve inner zone areas (NYC, neighboring cities in Westcheter, and New Jersey and the immediate suburbs outside these regions) and commuter rail serves the inner and outer zones (outer zones being distant suburbs and more remote areas) The inclusion of the light rail system is simply the expansion of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail System, which is expanded entirely to reach many regions--first and foremost developed to the system that NJ Transit is working towards--see the NJ Transit site for all the planned extensions of the light rail system--and providing an additional link between NY and NJ via original routings.
Chapter 9: Expanded New York City Subway System--smaller versions
This chapter provides other additional scenarios of the subway expansion in the city. I'm not sure yet of how many scenarios I'm going to include in this chapter, but there will be two included, which I can tell you right now.
(1) The first scenario is simply an extension of the current system using only past proposals the MTA, the TA and the Board of Transportation has made. Notably included is the full development of the IND Second System--both 1929 and 1939 plans. This system is confined within the borders of the city and except of one route to Jersey City, offers no extensions to the suburbs.
(2) The second scenario is an expansion of the first, but a scaled down version of the main scenario that this project fouces on. It is simply a modest expansion of subway service into Nassau, Westchester and New Jersey, covering only the immdediate Metropolitan Area.
Appendix A: Miscellaneous Items regarding Transit Operations
This Appendix describes/lists information that wasn't covered in the Chapter 3 Appendix or in Chatpers 7 or 8.
Appendix B: List of Stations of the Extended NYC Transit subways
This is appendix lists all the stations that "exist" in the project. They are classified by trunk line. Current stations are also listed.
(1) Question and Answer section
This section focuses on questions you may have about stuff that you may not be clear on, or have in the back of your mind, that I've thought of ahead of time. This document is half completed, and since the questions covered thus far are only about the first five chapters, I may likely send the first half of this document after Chapter 5, to see if it answers any questions that you may have.
(2) Feedback--What Do You Think? Comments, Suggestions, etc.
This section is simply a feedback section where you can freely comment only any aspect of transit operations of this project. It lists various questions of what you think about the material you read. The interesting part of this section is that it includes questions that lists scenarios where you decide how you would best handle the situation or event.
I'm still working on this document as well, but like the Question and Answer document, I'm thinking of dividing it into two parts and mail the first part to you after Chapter 5.
Other documents included in the project are:
1. A list of active towers--includes current ones and ones in operation on the "new" trunk lines. This will also be included at the end of the project.
2. A table of route markers from 1967 when the Christie Street Connector opened. This table also lists ficitional routings that existed at that time, and also provided two additional locations of BMT and IND merger, other than Christie Street. This table will be sent during the second and third parts of Chapter 5 or afterwards.
3. A historical chronology of ficitional routes that dates back from the Dual Contracts era through the 1990's. This is considered a prelude to Chapter 7, and will be likely be sent after Chapter 5.
4. A chronology of the ficitional routes in the order as I've conceived them. This covers routings created over a six year period. This will be send along with the historical chronology previously mentioned.
Chapters 6 to 9 I haven't started yet, but I will be working on them through the summer. I hope to have the remainder of the text portion of this project completed by mid-October.
Thanks for responding and taking the time out to be a part of this, I appreciate it very much
Dwayne Crosland/Xtrainexp.
John
---Choo Choo
Peace,
ANDEE
One of the great misnomers of railroading is the one that commonly refers to the rail as iron. Once upon a time rail was made from iron. Before that it some of it was made from wood with strips of iron laid upon the top of it. Today though, rail is made out of steel. It has been rolled from steel for over one hundred years now. Nonetheless, the rail will probably continue to be called iron long after I’m dead and gone. Main line rail is frequently referred to as the high iron as it is generally heavier rail that stands a little taller or higher as it were, than rail used in the yard or on industry track. An improperly lined switch is routinely referred to as a bad iron. The iron term is also carried over to the very name of this little column as you have likely noted. Think about it though, doesn’t the term “high iron” sound better and flow smoother than “high steel?” Even though Bob Seger and the Silver Bullet Band did a song called “Twin Ribbons of Steel”, I still think high iron just sounds better.
From the advent of the steel rail used to replace that which was formerly rolled from iron, there has been continuous and extensive research done to improve the quality of the component steel used in the rail making process. The metallurgy of the steel used to make the rail is has been studied, researched and improved significantly over the years. Today’s premium rail is far superior to that which was produced just twenty-five years ago. It comes delivered with a harder head for longer and better wear. It’s not just steel anymore.
Rail comes in different weights determined by the yard. For example, 119 lb rail indicates this size of rail weighs 119 lbs per three foot section or yard. The higher the weight number, the heavier the rail. And the heavier the rail, the higher or taller it stands; hence that popular railroad slang term, high iron. Also, the heavier the rail, the better it wears and longer it lasts. The kinking in the rail that can develop under intense summer heat is also reduced. This is not to say that it won’t kink because it does. But it tends not to happen as commonly or as bad, especially if the roadbed and track structure including rail anchors that help keep the rail from running is well maintained.
Friend and former railroad Roadmaster Mark Lynn forwarded the following information on rail expansion.
“The coefficient of thermal expansion for steel is 0.00000645in/in/deg. Doesn't sound like much but when you run out the numbers it comes to .405504 ft/mile/deg. Still doesn't sound like much, only about 5". Then multiply by 40 degrees and you get a piece of rail that has grown by 16.22 feet in that one mile. It's not at all unusual for the rail temp to go from say, 40 deg to 80 deg on a spring or fall day. Remember that on a sunny day, the rail temp can be significantly higher than the air temp as well.
It has to go somewhere. In the old days, that growth was taken up by joints in the rails and sun kinks (oops, thermal misalignment is the correct expression these days) were pretty uncommon. Today, with a well-maintained railroad not having any joints perhaps for several miles, where does it go?
As an engineer, you've probably noticed that the track seems to get just a little squigglier in the summertime. Some of that growth is being taken up in the tie plates, since they are not a precise fit with the base of the rail. That's typically what you're seeing there. At the bottom of hills and sags, the rail tends to get bunched up as trains coming down the hill push rail ahead of them and trains climbing tend to push it downhill as well as they fight for traction. If the ballast section is not sufficient or if there has been track work recently and the ballast is not fully compacted, that's a likely spot for the rail to head for the ditch. This may happen suddenly in front of a train, under a train, or in extreme cases, by itself. It will also want to pop out of the high side of a curve if the ballast section is thin.”
Mark is correct in the comment about the rail appearing a little more “squigglier” in the summer. In fact, it often looks like cooked spaghetti or a thin stream of water rippling in the breeze. The ride is also noticeably rougher as well. Many railroads apply speed restrictions of some nature on extremely hot days. CNIC has special instructions in place that requires freight train speeds to be reduced from 60 to 50 MPH when the temperature is 90° or higher and on subdivisions where the normal timetable speed is lower, maximum speed must reduced by 10 MPH but not lower than 30 MPH. Amtrak must reduce from 79 MPH to 65 MPH.
For years rail was rolled into thirty-nine foot lengths. This length is a direct contributor to harmonic rock (rock and roll as it is often called) that requires Engineers to minimize operating in between the speeds of 13 and 19 MPH on jointed rail. Today, a greater percentage of the rail that is manufactured is rolled in lengths of seventy-eight feet. When manufactured, rail is hot rolled from ingots. It is not cast in forms with molten steel. If you look at the side of rail, you will see numbers and letters on the web. These numbers include the weight of the rail and the year it was rolled. Some rail includes the name of the steel company that produced it as well.
Rail that is a few years old is actually better rail than when it is brand new. As locomotives and rail cars travel over the rail head, the steel in it actually hardens. A common term in the industry describes it as “wear hardened rail.” However, over a period of many years, the head can get too hard and such problems can develop as corrugation. This creates and rough and uneven surface on the ball. From years of tonnage rolling across it the ball will also flatten out and become misshapen. Other problems can crop up with rail as it ages such as internal cracks.
Jointed rail is rail that is joined together by the use of nuts, bolts and angle bars (the bars you see in between the joints on the sides of rail). It tends to be more maintenance intensive. Those joints need far more attention and maintenance to keep them riding smooth and to help keep the rail from warping. The nuts and bolts can work loose causing play between each rail in the joint. This can cause the ends to get slammed by the wheels passing over them thus battering the ends of the rail at the joint. Welding the rail eliminates these joints. We will get into more about welding rail in just a bit.
Jointed rail is also prone to pulling apart. Rail expands and contracts with hot and cold weather. As the joints begin to wear one of many factors may occur, the bolts within the joint begin to deteriorate from the motion of the rail and start to crack and eventually break and fall out. If one comes out it needs to be addressed but is not an immediate danger. There are usually four to six nut and bolt sets holding each joint together. Nuts may work loose and back off the bolts. This may create the potential for the bolts to come out of a joint. With less nut and bolt sets to hold everything in place, the remaining sets take on greater stress. Factor in the motion within the joint and you can see problems will develop. When one of these occurrences takes place, it can create the likelihood of the joint pulling apart. These are referred to as pull-aparts and stripped joints.
The nuts can work loose and back off or unscrew themselves from the bolts with the vibration of trains passing over them. They need to be checked and tightened periodically. If they come completely unscrewed, this can cause the bolt to work itself out of the hole in the rail and angle bar and fall out leaving the joint less secure. Again, one bolt missing won’t cause a derailment, but needs to be addressed. One less nut and bolt set creates more stress on the remaining sets.
Both welded and jointed rail also take abuse from flat spots on wheels. A three inch flat spot on a wheel rolling at 50 MPH is equivalent to several hundred thousand pounds of pressure hammering the rail. This hammering can cause internal failures in the rail which lead to breaks.
Another enemy to rail is spinning wheels. Locomotive wheels that are spinning on the rail can and will burn the rail head. I am acquainted with several Engineers who have spun the wheels so bad they burned completely through the ball of the rail and into the web. The web is the staff portion of the rail that connects the ball to the base of the rail giving it the “I” appearance when looking at the rail from the end. When rail is burned this badly, it is ruined and has to be replaced. Trains cannot operate over such burns. Small burns while hard on rail are not detrimental. Bigger burns may cause a speed restriction to be placed on that portion of rail but it can remain in service until this burned portion can be cut out and replaced.
Good draining, well ballasted and well maintained roadbed are keys to maintaining long rail life. If the roadbed is in good shape, the rail will last longer. If the roadbed under the rail is allowed to deteriorate, mud may begin to pump up through the ballast and weaken the structure. The ballast can no longer help hold the rail and ties in place as it is being fouled and then forced out by the mud which then begins to act as the ballast. The mud cannot support the track structure adequately and trains traveling over such a section can force the entire structure downward from the weight. While very flexible, this action may cause premature wear on the rail. The rail itself may begin to weaken as it is getting insufficient support from underneath.
Over time, creosoted wooden ties begin to weaken and deteriorate. There is a micro-organism that attacks treated ties helping to promote failure. As ties deteriorate, they loose their ability to hold the rail in proper gauge. One or two ties in a segment are no problem. But numerous failing ties can be a serious problem. Ties that rest in mud or are subject to very poor drainage also fail prematurely. Now couple failing ties to being supported by mud and this formula may allow the gauge of the rail (56½ inches) to slip. The rail itself may move laterally and/or vertically. And the two rails might not move together when the action occurs. Severe differences between the movement of the rails can lead to derailments. If nothing else, it leads to speed restrictions being placed upon the track.
Even under the best of maintenance, ties also don’t last forever. This is a prime reason railroads undertake routine project tie replacement programs. Usually every so many years, a high production tie gang will work their way across a route and replace ties.
Back in the dark days when roads like the Rock Island, Penn Central and Milwaukee Road were in dire financial straights, track maintenance was sacrificed to reduce operating costs. These lines experienced severe deterioration of some of their routes. This deterioration led to weakened track structure resulting in reduced train speeds. These roads were not alone though as some other lines also reduced track maintenance to save money. Where bad track develops, problems like reduced train speeds and derailments normally follow. Fortunately, the industry seems to be long past those days. Today most of the industry spends, or perhaps reinvests would be a more appropriate term, significant sums of capital into the physical plant.
One investment in the physical plant is the extensive use of welded rail. Welded rail, known as continuous welded rail (CWR), is often referred to as ribbon rail. It appears like a long ribbon of steel. There are two methods in which rail can be permanently joined together. The use of very high electrical current to weld rail is known as flash butt welding. The flash butt process is nothing like the arc welding process that uses current and welding rods with a welder carrying a bead to create the bond. A large welding machine using electrical current pulls the rail together and uses large copper ingots to transmit the current to the rail creating high temperatures to heat the rail to a point the ends get extremely hot and very soft and pliable. The rail is permanently joined together using the steel from the rail ends themselves to create the bond. At the last moment of the welding process the rail is pushed together to fuse it tightly. This causes some the heated material to bulge out all around the weld itself. This excess is chipped and later ground off to make a smooth and even bond.
One of the biggest private contractors that welds rail for the industry is Holland Company. Right before I joined the rail industry in 1978, I worked for them and learned a great deal about the process.
New or relay (previously used) rail is first prepared for the weld. The web at the ends of the rail that will be in contact with the copper ingots of the welder are first ground using a grinder to shine up the surface. This creates a clean contact point. Used rail that is to be welded is first tested for flaws and once deemed good to use is then cropped. Cropping takes the old ends off the rail removing any battering and also ridding the rail of the old bolt holes. This step is accomplished using a rail saw which cuts through the rail. The saw and blades used are nothing you will find at any home supply stores. Once these steps are completed, the rail is now ready to be welded.
The welder is placed onto the rails to be welded and the two pieces of rail are pulled together. Once everything is properly set, the process is started and the welder begins to do its thing. The action taking place sounds a little like some of the sounds from an old “Frankenstein” movie, lots of electrical humming with some hissing and popping. Sparks will fly out as well.
After each weld is completed (a process taking several minutes), excess steel and slag are knocked off and the weld is magnaflux tested to assure it is a quality weld. Once deemed a good weld, the welded joint is ground smooth all the way around the rail, top to bottom and both sides. Each weld is assigned a number and this number and the date of the weld is marked on the rail and recorded in a log. Should this weld fail in an inordinate period of time, the failed portion will be cut out and sent back to a lab for analysis to study and determine what caused the failure and how to prevent such a failure in the future. They are trying to discover whether it was a manufacturing flaw within the rail itself, or a problem with the welding process or perhaps a combination of both. I guess this would be considered post production research and development. From what I was told by CSX people, they follow the same sort of guidelines with their rail welding plant and process.
Holland has set up permanent rail welding plants for some of the railroads on railroad property. In the past, Holland has provided management and some of the help to operate these plants in conjunction with the railroads. In the case of the portable plants Holland will set up at a specific location, often near where the rail will be installed. In the case of the portable plants, the contracting railroad will hire Holland or another company to perform a specific number of welds over a defined period of time. Holland provides all the management and most, if not all of the help required to complete the project. The contracting railroad may or may not provide some of the labor. Once the project is completed, the plant is buttoned up and shipped back to the home shop or sent directly to another project.
In my days at Holland, we had portable plants in British Columbia and Quebec in Canada, plants in Kansas City, MO, Savanna, IL, and two permanent plants, one in Colorado and Texas. An in-track welder hauled in a former passenger car was also in use in Southern Illinois. Another portable plant had also just returned from Surinam in the jungles of South America. Other permanent plants had also been set up by Holland for railroads on their respective properties and operated directly by these railroads with technical expertise and equipment provided by Holland.
Rail is welded in high production plants of fixed or transportable locations. Totally self contained plants can be transported from job site to job site all across the globe. In track welders are also used. These on-track, self propelled vehicles can weld rail in place right on the roadbed. Or through the use of highway tires can travel along side the right of way and weld rail lying next to the location where it will be installed. These vehicles can be quickly placed on or off the track and can move to different job sites quickly. The in-track on rail welding truck was developed by Holland with the very first one constructed while I was employed there. Like everything else in the industry, the in-track welding truck has evolved immensely since that first one was built in 1978.
To learn more about Holland and the rail welding process and its evolution, I highly recommend visiting www.hollandco.com.
Oftentimes jointed rail is welded while in place on the right of way. A sufficient amount of spikes are pulled allowing the rail to be raised using track jacks. The nuts, bolts and angle bars are removed and the rail ends are cropped. Sometimes they entire joint is simply sawed out without removing the angle bars and bolts. This whole segment is just cut right out in one piece. The new ends are pulled together, prepared and flash-butt welded. As they crop the ends of each rail where the joints are being eliminated there becomes a deficit of rail. A length of rail is then added as required to fill the gap and welded into place.
The other method commonly employed to weld rail uses heat from a combustion source and incorporates the use of filler material to bond two pieces of rail together. This process is known as thermite welding. The filler includes metal shavings and gunpowder (to assist in creating sufficient heat) among other material. Flash-butt welding is considered to be the better of the two processes.
Thermite welds are generally used in the field to make repairs such as a length of rail that has been changed out. A new piece of rail has been cut in to replace a portion that has broken or developed a defect. If a new insulated joint associated with a new or existing signal is installed, it will be field welded into place. The same occurs should a new switch be installed. The process takes longer to set up and actually complete than does flash butt welding, but is more practical in certain applications. A railroad’s own welder (the employee not the machine) is employed for field welds. Rail ends will not necessarily have to be cropped as the filler material used will fill the gaps such as those created from bolt holes drilled into the rail.
Even though over time both may fail, thermite welds tend to be more prone to failure than flash-butt welds. From a personal standpoint, I have witnessed more failed thermite welds than flash butt welds. However, from a practical and economical standpoint, they are far more practical in certain situations and applications that flash-butt welds.
Welding rail provides many benefits for railroads. Eliminating joints reduces the required joint maintenance thus saving money and time. With fewer joints to maintain, less people are required as is less material. Welded rail also reduces warping of rail and battered ends. Fuel savings are realized as there is less resistance in rolling. Jointed rail creates friction and rolling resistance. Welded rail is friendlier to the neighbors as with fewer joints there is less noise. Wheels hitting joints do make a great deal of noise.
“Clickity-clack, clickity-clack.”
Rail also wears from the rubbing of flanges on the wheels against the inside of ball of the rail, particularly on curves. Railroads have attempted to address this problem through the use of flange lubrication. There are several different methods used to lubricate flanges and reduce or minimize rail wear. Flange lubrication systems are often applied to locomotives. They apply a thin layer of lubricant to the flanges of the locomotive wheels to reduce wear to both the wheel flange and rail head. In track lubricators are employed at some locations. These are devices mounted onto the track structure that apply lubricant to the flanges of wheels passing over it.
Some railroads use a lubricant applied directly to the inside of the ball of the rail. This is accomplished through the use of a track lubrication applicator mounted on hy-rail equipment such as a modified pick up truck. Such a truck will travel on the rail and apply a thin layer of lubricant as it travels the route. The Illinois Central was a big subscriber to this method for years.
While good drainage, well ballasted and well maintained roadbed are boss to sustaining longer rail life, there is still more that can be done to achieve ripe old age for the rail itself. Most railroads also subscribe to a program of rail grinding. Rail head wears and loses it shape over time from heavy tonnage that pounds over it. Grinding the rail head reprofiles the head of the rail (known as the ball) returning it to the original profile which will increase rail life. Properly profiled rail also offers less rolling resistance thus lends to fuel savings.
There are several outfits with whom the railroads contract to reprofile rail. These contractors make use of self contained trains that travel the rail to grind it back to the required profile. These trains may be pulled by a regular locomotive or a power car designed to both power the equipment and pull the train. The power cars often have some rail grinding equipment mounted to them. These power cars have cabs with the controls to operate this like a train. It can pull the grinding train from job to job just like a regular train at speeds up to 50 MPH.
While actually performing the grinding and reprofiling the rail, these grinder trains operate at very slow speeds. Ground material does fly out and can also start fires along the right of way. Fire trains sometimes follow the grinder trains. These trains have a tank car or two of water along with a pump and a hose to spray water on fires that have ignited along the right of way. I’ve worked a few of these trains too.
The rail grinder trains do have a limitation in that they cannot grind switches. Usher in the switch grinder. These are self contained on-track machines used specifically to grind switches. They only grind switches and not rest of the railroad. They also travel from job to job on the rail. Like the power cars on grinder trains, the switch grinders have no suspension on them so as to allow them to properly work and ride the rail for the grinding application. However, they ride absolutely terrible when traveling from job site to job site. Having ridden in several of them over the years, I can tell you it is quite the rough ride too. They are real kidney killers
Now no matter how much money and effort railroads place into track maintenance, rail still wears out. There is no way around it. A constant barrage of heavy tonnage rolling across the rail at high speeds takes quite the toll on the iron. And when the wear has reached the point that no maintenance in the world can save it, the rail has to be replaced.
While a small gang may perform spot rail change out or the replacement of smaller segments, to replace miles of rail on a route require the use of a high production rail or steel gang to perform the task. Replacing rail is a very intensive project requiring the use of such high production gangs.
In the early spring of 1996, I had the opportunity and privilege of being assigned to such a project. In participating in this project, I was able to observe up close and personal, the steps and procedures used by a high production steel gang. I learned an incredible amount about rail and the change out process.
The portion of the Indiana Harbor Belt between Grand Trunk Tower in Blue Island, IL and Superior in La Grange (behind the EMD plant) is actually owned by CSX Transportation. The IHB has operated this portion of the railroad as its own for years as part of a deal made with the Baltimore & Ohio Chicago Terminal Railroad. At one time both the IHB and B&OCT were building parallel routes in this region. It was quickly realized both lines would not be able to survive with competing routes so closely spaced. The deal was struck for both lines to use a single route in this corridor. The IHB took over the operation of the completed B&OCT tying it into their own route. The IHB timetable and NORAC rules govern the line, which is also dispatched by the IHB. The B&OCT agreed to handle the maintenance and provide all the required track materials. Both lines use the entire line as needed with as many trains as they desire and require.
Today B&OCT successor CSX continues to provide the roadway workers, maintenance and materials needed to support the track and structure. There is one exception though, the interlocking plant at CP Ridge in Chicago Ridge. IHB maintains the signals and appliance within this plant, the crossing with Metra’s Southwest Services line (the former NS, ex-N&W, nee Wabash). The IHB signal department maintains this plant as part of a deal struck in 1994 that closed the tower that stood here and was staffed by a Norfolk Southern employee.
Clear as mud, right?
In 1995 it was decided by the powers that be at CSX to upgrade the rail and switches along the IHB route between Grand Trunk Tower and Superior beginning in 1996. In late February and early March, loaded welded rail trains were delivered to CSX’s Barr Yard from their rail welding plant in Georgia. These trains carry several miles of rail in 1440 foot lengths (or sticks) of continuous welded rail loaded into racks that are equipped with rollers to facilitate unloading. An unloading machine is part of the train and is used to pull the rail from the cars and drop it along side the right of way.
For this project 136 lb. premium quality, head hardened rail would be installed, some of the best rail money can buy. This type of rail will wear well and withstand the rigors of large volumes of traffic the IHB handles on a daily basis. The 78 foot lengths of rail were delivered new to CSX’s rail welding plant near Atlanta, welded into the 1440 foot sticks and loaded them onto rail trains in preparation to shipment to Illinois for this project.
CSX began dropping the rail along the intended route in preparation of the project beginning. The use of a work train with a CSX train and engine crew assisted by CSX Maintenance of Way employees handled this portion of the project. All other materials needed for this project such as tie plates, spikes and rail anchors will also be placed along the route in advance of the project’s commencement so that the crews will have all of the necessary hardware they will require to complete the project on time. They do not want the crews to be idled while awaiting the delivery of materials thus delaying the project.
The steel gang works on a very tight schedule. This group is CSX’s high production steel gang. All they do is pull old rail and replace it with new or relay welded rail. They do not change out ties or switches, they replace rail. This project must be completed on time as they have another project to begin shortly after this one, which I learned was a project on the former Clinchfield Railroad. So time is of the both the major factor and also the enemy.
In conjunction with the rail project, CSX also undertook a program to replace several sets of hand operated crossover switches and also renewed several road crossings. This project was rather huge. With such an undertaking, CSX required a curfew in which no trains would be operated on the adjacent track during the working hours of the steel gangs. A twelve hour curfew would be enacted daily Monday through Friday between the hours of 0800 to 2000 hours for the two weeks this project would encompass. This curfew would become quite the battle as you will read.
In part two of this piece, we will delve into the entire process start to finish, of the installation new rail with the CSX high production steel gang. This was an amazing process to observe and be a part of. It is my intention to try to give you as much detail and information as possible. I have numerous photos from this project and will post them at a site kind enough to play host them so you can observe for yourself some of what I will be describing.
I would also like to thank Mark Lynn for his technical assistance on part one. Mark checked out much of what I wrote to assure I had it all correct. And as you have read, he also supplied some very important information. In part two we may include some of his first hand encounters as well.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2003 by JD Santucci
Peace,
ANDEE
http://www.chicago-l.org/multimedia/Spiderman2/images/Spiderman2-2200s01.jpg
I like the cars.
The carbodies themselves remind me of the R32...
The doors remind me of the buses used on LI Bus...
The 3 square windows remind me of the ML Redbirds...
A weird hybird if I say so myself.
They are the same age as the Redbirds that I loathe. I hope Reggie Welch is burning in hell right now.
: - )
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Subtalkers criticize movie makers for making other systems cars stand in for New York, but it's the NYCT's fault for making it hard to.
CTA seems to be easier to work with than NYCT.
It's more difficult to use the New York subway for filming because it runs 24/7.
Maybe most people don't know R-32 from R-2D2 (wrong movie, whatever), but ain't no way that street is passing for New York. They should have stopped with the subway depictions.
Especially with the building address plastered everywhere. I can't read the street name (hopefully, moviegoers won't be able to, either), but #55 would be nowhere near West 29 St & 9 Ave.
I figured this out by doing a search of CVS stores in Chicago.
The car is a 2200-series (Budd, ca. 1969):
http://www.chicago-l.org/trains/roster/2200.html
The filming took place last November:
http://www.chicago-l.org/news/archives/news11-02.html
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
This reveals a sirprisingly large gap in the city's superhero coverage. Spiderman is confined to Manhattan below 110th, Batman has the whole city, but only at night and Superman is stuck up in Metropolis (a city envisioned by Nicholi Tesla taking up the whole area between Buffalo and Rochester) twidiling his thumbs as has city has been vacated due to the effects of urban blight.
He's probably still more effective than the TA with his "service".
Mark
So why not film the real NY and add a CGI elevated?
The R never goes outside.
Thought you'd let that one get by us, but I was too smart for you.
Peace,
ANDEE
--Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Anyways, there have been worse.
"Gay" and "ghetto" have got to be the two most commonly used words by people today who have no idea what the real meanings of the words are...
And, BTW, the use of Ghetto in modern day slang is pretty offensive to me.
Don't Care.
"And, BTW, the use of Ghetto in modern day slang is pretty offensive to me."
What exactly do you mean by that?
Assuming you mean because of the Jewish Ghettos.
The neighborhoods where poor minorities live also has the word ghetto applied to it correctly. Someone who is 'ghetto' merely follows the pattern of behavior that suggests a person is from such an area. If you find that offensive, it's your own thoughts.
Ghetto is one thing. Gay is somethig entirely different. 'Gay' twists the meaning of the word to make it offensive.
ACELA, you should apologize for making such an asinine statement.
--Mark
Guess the movies depictions are believable to even some NYers :)
(img src="address where picture is located")
(img src="http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ckder/IMG_2931.jpg")
Only when you actually write the code for the message post, replace the brackets with the angle brackets < >
Here is what happens when I enclose the code above with angle brackets:
Hope this helps.
Peace,
AN(cough)DEE
(a href="http://web.presby.edu/~jtbell/transit/images/Atlanta/North/I85Crossing.jpg")Atlanta North Line crossing I-75(/a)
which produces the following result:
Atlanta North Line crossing I-85
I prefer this method because then the reader can decide whether to actually download the picture or not.
Chicago Blue Line Stop
All Chicago subway stations look like that. (Most of the system is elevated.)
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
The thing is the automated annoncements on the L don't say Avenue, street, boulevard, or anything after the name of the street. For instance, the announcement at this stop just says "Chicago". I being a native Chicagoan have no problem with this. However, this confuses the hell of out many out-of-towners and new L riders almost every time I ride. There is a Chicago Ave. stop on the Blue, Brown/Purple, and Red Lines. The announcements should say "Chicago Avenue" or the intersecting street also like, "Chicago and Milwaukee" on the blue line. Many people exit here not knowing that they are on Chicago avenue, a mile or two from the heart of downtown Chicago.
The Blue Line station has to be one of the worst L stations out of all the whole CTA system. It is has that dirty, grungy feeling to it. Plus it still has those hideous "A" skip-stop service signs that are bright red in the background.
If you want to see an awesome Chicago Ave. station, go to the elevated Brown/Purple station. It is famous for it's unusually long platfroms that curves and is seen on tv a lot when they show the L, it used to be shown a lot on ER. The Red Line subway station at Chicago Ave. is also nice. It was renovated a few years ago and is modern, but in my opinion very nice. It went from grimy and dirty to bright, clean, and was made much bigger to handle its high ridership.
BTW, the continous platform is not at Chicago Ave. It is at Lake, Washington, Monroe, Jackson on the red line. And also one block west on the blue line at Washington, Monroe, Jackson.
I've always been curious - how does this platform work?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
You could when I lived in Chicago in the late '70s and I believe that another SubTalker has posted (within the past six months or so) that you still can.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Digital has come a long way.
I was personally amazed that he says he hand-held the shot! The subway is brighter than it used to be, but it's still not well-lit to most photography standards.
It is pretty impressive though. I really never had no desire to walk it, but riding between Harrison and Grand on the red line is always fun. I always wonder why they wasted all that material and effort to build such a long platform that is 1/2 between stations and un-used. But the CTA has done some really stupid stuff in the past.
I must say though, I am impressed with how the currently administration got the massive amount of money they did for the Douglas/Cermak branch renovation. Also the way they are rebuilding it while service still runs 5 days a week is awesome. I have never seen anything like it. Completely removing a section of track early Saturday morning and having a new useable section in place for monday's rush hour is truly amazing.
At one time, it was probably used considerably, especially during bad weather. Instead of buliding long mezzanines as NY did (the closed one betwen 42nd and 50th Sts on the 6th Ave IND comes to mind), Chicago actually saved money by "simply" extending the platform.
--Mark
Oops, I think you mean between 34th & 42nd on 6th Av.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
--Mark
Yes indeed; there's an entrance and mezzanine in the middle of each block along State Street, without regard to current stop locations. There's a total of (I think) eight entrances between Lake and Congress Streets serving the four (historically three) train stops. Northbound and southbound stop locations are somewhat staggered, and, in a Chicago winter, it's desirable to come out onto the street as close as possible to one's destination; so none of these entrances is completely useless even if not directly at a stop.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Yes, we didn't waste our money on Large mazanines, because we really don't need them. The systems isn't that complex. 4 of the 7 lines connect on the Loop elevated. 2 other underground 1 block apart and of course the Skokie swift at Howard. Not too mention, if you want to wander around underground in Chicago, you can always explore the pedway. Speaking of which, I never really have used it much. I am downtown a lot but don't really see any entrances and exits for it. Although I have heard several times how large it is and a great way to avoid bad weather. Only time I ever see signs for it is when I enter Randolph Street station for Metra, there are signs that it is closed west of Marshall fields, which is right next to the Metra passageway.
But you can make your own judgements based on the map ... :-)
---Choo Choo
#3 West End Jeff
---Choo Choo
#3 West End Jeff
"I saw a mainline redbird yesterday."
In the above sentence, "mainline" tells you that it was a non-WF redbird car. It does not mean that I saw a redbird on the West Side or East Side IRT lines.
---Chapter 11
#3 West End Jeff
For some reason I am unable to show pics from nycsubway to this message board. I keep getting a broken link every time I try and show the pic here. Is it that I am unable to show them from nycsubway to this message board?
#9411 7 Flushing Local
That is because the address you are trying to show is the address of what ends up being an HTML page (via PERL script), not the address of the image itself. In order to use the (img src=) tag, you have to find the actual address of the image. This can be done by doing a "view source" of your above linked page and seeing where the photo is. I think they are all in the same place, so all you have to do is change a little something in the address that you linked and now you're pointing to the image.
---Choo Choo
The rest of the week is supposed to be crappy and I've wanted to get out there. Not going to happen on my days off apparently.
With that in mind I took the few good minutes today and walked down to the park and took these:
--Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
Chuck Greene
How did you get on the ROW, through the wildlife refuge?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Taken from the park about 2 minutes south of Howard Beach.
EDIT: Nevermind, I checked my trusty map and I see that it is Spring Creek Park, and/or Frank M. Charles Memorial Park. One is on either side of the basin. Can you tell me which of the two parks you are taking these photos from?
Thanks!
---Choo Choo
Its right next to the train tracks (obviously) so whichever one you see on your map next to the line for the train is it.
(During the current midday GO, how often do shuttle trains run? Perhaps I should wait until after 3pm to get my photos.)
Its about a 15-20 minute walk.
That's the first pic, botched the HTML.
Larry
thinkin' of a new title...
Running express service that late is a consequence of not having split shifts. The TA has made a devil's bargain. It needs two separate crews for the morning and afternoon rush hours. Therefore, it has minimized rush hour service as much as possible but has increased off-peak service to keep the extra operating personnel busy.
The increased off-peak service can either be all local or express and local. The loading on the Flushing Line partially answers this question. Main St is the most heavily used station - by far.
Wait for ZPTO to reduce off-peak service. BTW, I've been on the late expresses - they are well used.
Express service is not needed past 8pm. It's ridiculous that people at 74th have to wait 10 mins for an overcrowded train, while Main St. customers are being served on 5 min headways.
Each rush hour period is approximately 4 hours long. A contiguous 8 hour shift would involve 4 hours of operating trains and 4 hours of some other activity. That other activity would be out of title. If that activity were paid less, I would assume that the T/O's and C/R's would insist on their title's full pay rate. That other productive work might become prohibitively expensive to perform with trained T/O's and C/R/s. Alternatively, that other productive work would involve an activity that was paid at a higer rate. I would assume that workers in the higher paid title would insist that any person performing their task should be have the same job title and pay. So, T/O's and C/R's would have to qualify for a higher paid title. Their 4 hour rush hour stint would therefore become more costly. The best compromise is to give customers a better grade of service during those 4 off-peak hours.
t's ridiculous that people at 74th have to wait 10 mins for an overcrowded train, while Main St. customers are being served on 5 min headways.
You've raised two points.
First, when there were split shifts and workers spread 8 paid hours of work over a 14 hour period, off-peak service was 12 minute headways with only local service. You should be able to do the math to figure out how more crowded trains stopping at 74th Street were, under those conditions.
Second, NYCT rebuilt all the elevated stations between 103rd St and 33rd St during the 1980's. The could have rethought and changed the locations of express and local stations. They did not. However, 74th St could have been turned into an express stop at that time. There are arguments pro and con for such a conversion. They appeared only interested in rebuilding the stations to their 1918 specs regardless of intervening usage patterns. After, a 4 year reconstruction period, they tried to bypass the Woodside station on a regular basis. Clearly, they did not plan ahead when they instituted the rebuilding project. Their lack of planning was further illustrated, when they had to rebuild the entire Viaduct in the early 1990's. There was major reconstruction for 8 out of 12 years. The net result was to come up with a configuration that exactly duplicated 1918's best guess.
Ah, I never knew that before. That explains why all of the stanchions are that new 'forest green' color. Though, the old brown color is still prevalent from a section stemming from the west of 33rd to Queensboro Plaza where it eventually turns pink.
You need T/O's and C/R's to report to the yard to prepare trains for service. Then they have to leave the yard. Make trips. Have a lunch break. Bring the trains back to the yard. Signs have to be changed. Passengers removed from trains going to the yard. Trains brought to and from the barn in the yard. There is so much work to be done, before worrying about crews working out of title.
The way I see it, you can run fewer trains(reducing congestion), eliminate 5 trip jobs on the 7 line(which is slave-labor), and actually provide better service for ALL, by ending express service(which benefits Main St. passengers only) by 8pm.
How can anyone even think of running split shifts? What would you do? Build military style barracks at terminals for crews to sleep in between shifts, and never go home to their families? What's next? Crews wearing adult diapers like production line workers in third-world countries! We can log 12 hours of cab time a day, dirty ourselves on the road, clean up at the terminal, and hit the road again.
You need T/O's and C/R's to report to the yard to prepare trains for service. Then they have to leave the yard. Make trips. Have a lunch break. Bring the trains back to the yard. Signs have to be changed. Passengers removed from trains going to the yard. Trains brought to and from the barn in the yard. There is so much work to be done, before worrying about crews working out of title.
Let's look at this from the customer's perspective. Productive work is defined as operating passenger trains in regular service. Assume that during an 8 hour day one permits 1/4 hour each for prep and finishing time, 5 minutes per hour for personal time and one hour for lunch. That takes up 2 hours. That means 75% of the day can be used for actual operating trains. What percentage of the work day is spent operating trains for T/O's and C/R's?
The way I see it, you can run fewer trains(reducing congestion), eliminate 5 trip jobs on the 7 line(which is slave-labor)
Is that 5 trips per hour, 5 trips per day or what? Please be specific.
actually provide better service for ALL, by ending express service(which benefits Main St. passengers only) by 8pm.
Clearly what one's perspective as what constitutes better service depends on one's point of origin and point of departure. If the post 8 PM expresses ran nearly empty, one might be inclined to agree with your assertion. My own anecdotal evidence is that there are significant numbers of standees on the late evening expresses.
How can anyone even think of running split shifts?
I mentioned the split shifts to illustrate the scheduling flexibility that they permitted. I did not advocate going back to them However, if the lack of flexibility results in running near empty trains sone other remedy would have to be found to reduce costs. Two obvious possibilities are part-timers and automation. Considering your charactization of Flushing Line operations as slave labor, I'd guess you would welcome ZPTO. :-)
Here's a random Q job w/ a put-in:
Works 8h34m; 3 local trips - BBC-57/7
Report 0405 @ Stillwell - 15 min sign on time
0420 - 0525 - get from Stillwell Station to Stillwell Yard, prep train for service, get train to Brighton Beach between 0515 and 0520
BBC - 0525 57/7 - 0610 Fall back one interval 57/7 - 0631 BBC - 0718 Relay 0718 - 0730
BBC - 0746 57/7 - 0839 Fall back two intervals 57/7 - 0856 BBC - 0943
49 minute Lunch
BBC - 1032 57/7 - 1121 Fall back one interval 57/7 - 1139 BBC - 1227 Relay 1227 - 1239
Scheduled ROAD time - 313 minutes (not counting MANDATORY "Be on train two minutes before scheduled departure")
Scheduled WORKING time - 378 minutes (still not counting those twelve minutes)
Time actually involved - 378 scheduled minutes + 12 "be on train" minutes (2 min x 6 trips) + 15.5 "walking" minutes (time to get from one end of train to other on populated platform while wearing uniform - 5 x 2.5(approx) + 3 for end of plat to BBC crew room) = 405.5
Time from report to clear - 514 minutes
NOTE - This is not my job. Do not look for me on these intervals. All scheduled times assume absolutely no problems during the course of the day. If it suffers the same problems I do, the second n/b trip is short by about five minutes and all s/b trips are short by about two.
For what it's worth, there are 5 roundtrips on the 7, each scheduled for approx 66 minutes; walking time is a bit longer, and it's possible to arrive on one track at Main St and find your next train waiting for you, with the starting lights lit, due to delays.
On the 6 line, during weekends, you do three round-trips Pel-BB-BB-Pel. You can't even leave your cab when you get to BB. You relay around the loop. Most jobs are written with 2hrs, 7mins as the round-trip travel time. The last trip is just 2hrs. And, most crews have a lay-up somewhere in there, all for about 8:30 PAY, 8:05 on the clock.
So, you're looking at 375 minutes of cab time, plus the lay-up and inconvenience of going to Westchester Yard.
On the 1 line, where you go around SF Loop and can't leave your cab, the round-trip travel time x's three trips is 340 minutes plus you probably get a lay-up or PI somewhere in between. All that for just 8 hrs pay. NO PENALTY TIME!!
Compared to that job on the Q, if you add up ALL the road+relay time, it's still a much better deal. I know T/O's who are major train buffs, who wouldn't even dream of jumping to the A division. I can't understand how someone can be a train buff his whole life, yet not want to say he operated every line in the system. This guy has 10 years, can pick the 7 line, and still won't transfer. When I asked him, "Why don't you try the A division for a pick", he responded, "TOO MUCH WORK". I'm starting to understand what he's talking about.
newyorkish.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
"Photography in the subway, as defined by Rule 21 NYCRR 1050.9c, IS LEGAL."
On the back I would write the text of the rule:
"Restricted areas and activities. Photography, filming, or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors, or tripods may not be used. All photographic activity must be conducted in accordance to the provisions of these rules."
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Jimmy
What comes to mind is the Mennonites who travel to the city in 'plain clothes.' They don't protheletise, they don't 'verbally assault,' they don't ask for money or shove 'The Word' down your throat. I give them credit for surviving through the mess knowing first hand how they collect funds for international Good Works. They should be an example for any religious denomination presenting themselves in our subways. CI Peter
It's always good to know which ones to hit up for dollar bills. :-)
Tom
CMSL caboose
Tuckahoe, NJ, station
--Mark
But why is the Corona Yard closing, and what will this mean for the cars parked there? When is this happening?
The upcoming GO this weekend is an indicator of the one of the major signal interlockings at the terminal. Face it, you can't ride the (7) anymore without seeing a construction worker along the line somewhere.
Why are the emergency windows immune? Different glass?
Toward the end, all the old push pull units had the gunk, except the emergency windows...
www.forgotten-ny.com
www.forgotten-ny.com
www.forgotten-ny.com
--Acela LIRR Express M7 #7046
www.forgoTTen-ny.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=487959
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
0 (the zero)
East Harlem-bound T local train, stand clear of the closing doors, please!
Finding the place itself was a pain in the ass b/c there were no signs on the outside, took me 1/2 an hour when it was right there the museum entrance threw me off and would of thrown a lot of folks off :-\. I went around 7:20 and I saw fellow Subtalkers Kool-D, R30 and JerzDevl2000 there. Then we took a map of the proposed routings and we went in the forum and listened to what people had to say about it BUT I missed Kool-D's speech. Anyway they showed a map of how the T would be routed and it runs from 125/Lexington Av to Hanover Square with the Q being turned from the Broadway line using the 63 connector to terminate with the T. Funny thing was they shoed a map of what it would like with the Manny-B open and they showed the B,D,N & Q via bridge and the strange thing was that it showed the D heading towards the Brighton so it looks like the map for 2004 is already made but not out [if you doubt me, ask Kool-D and R30].
One person who went to the podium suggested that the line turn west on 125 St and go all the way to Riverbank State Park. Another person suggested that the 2 Av line be made 4 track then LITERALLY started to rant on the MTA’s incompetence and we started to laugh a little b/c this guy was ANGRY! So he talked about 2 Broadway and how it went $398 million over budget and said the MTA must stop these budget overruns from happening and he said nothing more true. Then he said that why isn’t there a provision to go below Houston [since originally it was supposed to go no further south than that] and suggested 2 MORE stops at 49/50 St and 79 St because its not right that people have a 14 block gap between 72 St and 86 St then he was finally done.
Now the next registered speaker took the cake here LOL. Ok he stated his occupation then he talked a bout a old friend of his and said that the East River should he dried up and build the subway there, man this guy was so funny but obviously he was serious and then rambled on other off topic things. The next speaker who was from Corona said that he was originally from Philly then lived in NY for many years, stated that he never had a car and said that he was a railfan for a LONG time and suggested that they shouldn’t waste any time with building the 2 Av subway & should start as soon as possible, which is next year. So when all the registered speakers were finished, R30 asked if the SAS was going to be ATO, Mr. Sussman [did I spell it right?] didn’t know what the hell he was talking about. Then when it was done we headed home on a R142A 4 train from Bowling Green then R30 got off at Borough Hall. Afterwards me & Kool-D went home on the Q express to Newkirk Av then parted ways.
Overall, I say the current plan doesn’t get any better than what is on the table although I question the fact that 4 tracks may not be possible for the SAS. I’m surprised more Subtalkers didn’t go unless y’all went there early. If anyone else went, tell us your observations.
And being for the SAS but against the MTA is against. The pols can just say we need to wait 20 years until we have a new agency, and then we'll build it. In the meantime, we'll close the Jerome Avenue line to reduce crowding on the Lex when the suburbanites want to use it at GCT.
In Favor - 18
Against - 4
Fence-sitting - 4
Complete nut-cases - 1
Of the eight politicians whoe were there (or sent representatives), 7 were definitely in favor of SAS, while the other got put in my 'fence-sitter' category. Unfortunately, that one was Mr. Silver (who was not there in person). Nothing in the prepared statement caused me to believe that he had an opinion on it in either direction.
Again, of the same eight, seven had nothing negative to say about the MTA in their oral statements. The holdout this time was Public Advocate Betsy Gottbaum, who took them to task over the recent financial 'shenanigans' and fare increase, saying that "the MTA has lost the trust" of NYers.
Of the four "Against"s, one was in favor of the Stubway, with surface transit improvements along the lower segment, as well as a MNRR and LIRR extension to lower Manhattan; one thought it a waste, since it amkes no allowances for diversions; one because it doesn't serve Queens (find my post in your thread on this hearing); and the last because it doesn't serve the Bronx and wastes money on 'frills' - nice looking stations, storage tracks at the 125 turn, etc.
The four 'hedge-sitters' would probably have gone into the 'In Favor' column had they actually said so.
For the later part of the meeting, I was out in the lobby area talking so you'll need the opinions of someone who sat through it.
But these self promoters are those who show up at hearings and opppose everything. That's why I think we'd be better off with referenda than with public hearings.
(In Favor - 18
Against - 4
Fence-sitting - 4
Complete nut-cases - 1)
Not bad for a public hearing. Especially since the press probably headed home after the pols spoke to write their stories.
Hey Larry, were you there at the public hearing in LIC for the 63rd Street line service plan where one of the speakers told Doug Sussman "I should beat your ass?"
I learned later that this guy was actually being nice - he said much nastier things at previous public appearances.
Outside on the sidewalk in LIC, he said a few harmless words to me about the hearing. I told him, "I assume you know what you're doing," and bid him a good night.
The biggest losers will be Brooklyn Lex Ave IRT riders because there is no relief for any overcrowding as no new free transfers to the second Ave line will open up, riders from BMT lines have to option to use the B and D lines to Grand St and transfer to the Tardy line for east side service, less congestion at Atlantic Ave but not much.
125th st will be a huge mess, not many riders from Bronx 4 and 5 trains will actually transfer to the "Tardy Local" unless they need to get to the Seaport or U.N. areas. Local 6 trains will see some improvement in service as they will be less crowded, save for the busy 68th st station because of Hunter College outside.
Well, they are not "losing," they are just not "gaining" as much.
"125th st will be a huge mess, not many riders from Bronx 4 and 5 trains will actually transfer to the "Tardy Local" unless they need to get to the Seaport or U.N. areas"
You don't have anything to support that statement, Kool-D. You skipped over "Hospital Row," for one thing (think how many people work there and how many people go there for appointments and diagnostic tests - even from the Bronx). And "Hospital Row" will be served by the Stubway, so you'll see the effects of that sooner than the full-length line.
It would be nice to have express service on the T line, but you're exaggerating the effects of not having it.
Then there are the domestic jobs on the UES, and the retail jobs further down (of course, that's have to wait for the full-length subway).
One thing that alot of speakers mentioned in one way or another was to start the building from the bottom up. While most used the staement "revitalizing Lower Manhattan" along with it, a few were a bit more blunt - build the SAS in such a way that the Stubway is an impossiblity. In other words, don't start from 125 and build the section to 63 St and then say "Oops, we ran out of money. You'll have to deal with just this."
It's been so long since New York actually has built a new subway line (as opposed to an el replacment in Jamaica or a connector to two existing lines through Long Island City) most people don't have the faintest idea of what the results would be. Getting the Stubway built would in all probability push people who live and work south of 63rd St. to be more vocal about extending the line all the way to Hanover Square.
I also question the high number of riders who will be using the SAS line (590,000 daily riders according to MTA estimates), the actual number may be more like 450,000, but I could be wrong.
There will be trackage to Queens. The line is designed to allow movement from lower Manhattan to Queens, and you can go to Queens from the UES by transferring at 63rd Street from SAS to the F train, according to the plan. Currently, the Queens to lower Manhattan tracks are planned as non-revenue only, but that could change in future.
The only option is to build a new line in Queens that would be served by the Hanover Square line, the Y.
By the time there's an SAS, QB will have CBTC and the line will be able to handle more tph.
Also, a QB to 2nd Ave connection wouldn't really be for additional riders. It would just be removing those riders transferring to the 6 at 53rd or riding the E all the way to downtown.
What are you disagreeing with?
I was replying to a posting that said that a QB connection to the SAS would be bad because it would overwhelm the QB line. I was saying it would be OK because it wouldn't.
wayne
His representative was using the opportunity to voice displeasure about perceived footdragging by MTA on the full plan (ie Silver does not want just the Stubway). What you saw was manuevering. Silver held up the entire State Budget for the SAS; he's for it, no question about that.
I think the game-playing is ill-advised at this point, but Silver may feel differently.
There is enough of a pro turnout, with little or no opposition, that it doesn't matter for the record.
So then after I arrived for the start of the 6:30 presentation, you missed my "tirade", and it was a good one at that.
So that made you feel good. Cool.
Let me take the devil's advocate position for a moment though. Just for the hell of it.
You have X minutes to speak (was it 3 minutes? Was it 10 minutes?)
You can do a tirade, or you can do something else with that time. Do you think a tirade was the best use of that time? Did a tirade accomplish your goal, and could you have done more good for yourself and others by a more constructive speech?
You can also turn in written testimony of any length (not limited by speaker time).
No one can "hear" your written testimony. I went to the hearing for one goal that I've achieved, to compare how NYCT lack accountability in their station operations, and in their protion of the MTA website. I provided the pictures, printouts, even took out "The Map" and a G line timetable to prove my point, and detailed to Mr. Sussman that the SAS cannot be started if no one is accountable for the work done properly and safely at the MTA.
I am pleased the the 63rd st stubway was transformed into a subway line on 12/01.
True, which is why you do both.
But don't underestimate the value of written testimony.
Peter Cafiero, who used to post here gave the visual presentation.
Another official I always speak to at these hearings, when I was telling him about my new career in transit and the subject of next year's B/D changes came up, said that the reactions so far to the switch seem to be good, and that Brighton riders actually prefer Broadway service. I was surprised, as I thought they would have become fixed to 6th Av. Also, the M cannot return to the Brighton because of the capacity, and that the difference between now and when they had the QB service, is that back then you had key bys! I guess stuff like that (as well as I guess many signals being slower now) is why so many services cannot be restored, and we are not aware of such things when we make all these suggestions.
That is the "working" map for the planning of the SAS. That means they can still make changes to that map at any time. The map, as shown in the SAS planning documents (probably what you saw), has been around for at least a year, and does not reflect anything the MTA may have been thinking about for the last year (specifically with respect to the Manny B reopening).
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Very dissapointing turnout for such an important project, I will call the T line for TARDY.
That map was leaked to a Subtalker who posted it on-line. Any of us could have downloaded it and printed it out.
BTW, congrats to all for attending the hearing. You did a good thing. I appreciate it. Thank you.
Doubtful. By the time the SAS opens, the English language undoubtedly will have mutated to the point that there are more than 26 letters in the alphabet.
Just wanted to let you know I started a Transit website with pictures from the New York City Subway, Big Dig, Acela Express (1 Digital Video of that), and more. My website is www.nycguide.us
Have a nice evening.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
---Choo Choo
COMMENTS:
Do take into consideration those transit buffs without broadband. For instance, your NYC Subway page displays alot of pics on one page at the same time. For someone on dialup, this will take awhile.
Providing descriptions of the pictures won't hurt either. If someone is not familiar with the area, they will not know where the picture was taken.
Good job anyways.
Jimmy
That's what I meant by making them smaller "pysically", as opposed to using the browser's image width and height options.
He needs to make a smaller thumbnail you click on to get the whole pic.
If he doesn't go with thumbnails, at least he needs to display them larger than they are now.
Those that looked at the WMATA Greenbelt yard images I took would know that the 600 X 450 images rendered in a web browser pretty quick as the average size is 27 kb.
The raw images from the digital camera are uncompressed 1152 X 864 with an average size is 165 kb. After color correcting and resizing I set JPG compression to around 65% before saving the file. I would never apply JPG compression to an image that has not been resized down to a smaller size as it will usually degrade the quality of the image. The other advantage of resizing is it make the image sharper.
One of the things I learned early in it infancy of the web was to keep HTML documents small as well. Generally it is good practice to keep pages plus objects that render in the page to something under 60 kb.
John
The biggest problem is that it takes an excruciatingly long time for a page to download via modem. The pictures download in parallel, so if I want to see how one picture in particular turns out, I have to wait for all the rest of them, too. This is aggravated by the fact that the pictures are actually larger than they appear on the page. For example, on your New Haven line page, the first picture is coded to appear as 397x299 pixels, but it's actually 640x480! (which I found out by saving it to disk and opening it in Photoshop)
To make life easier for the bandwidth-challenged, you could create separate thumbnail images, say 160x120 pixels, and use them as links to the full-size images. Put a sentence or two of description next to each thumbnail. That way the pages will load pretty quickly so long as you don't put too many thumbnails on one page (say 10-12 max). Also, when someone downloads a particular full-sized picture, it will come up fairly quickly because it won't have to compete with the other pictures for bandwidth.
On my site I take this a step further and don't even have any thumbnails, just the descriptions. Here's an example with some pictures from Atlanta that I put online the other day. I don't actually recommend that you go this far; I do it this way because I'm mooching off my employer's Web server so I want to use bandwidth as efficiently as possible. But if you mentally substitute thumbnail images for my "[picture]" links, you'll get an idea of what I'm suggesting.
---Choo Choo
I told her I was going to have to post this question on the board hoping someone has seen this movie and knows what I'm talking about!
Ding dong the 20 min headway is dead, the 20 min... well you get the idea.
Have a good one
Not on nights or weekends.
I am trying to get a concensus for a paper.
Thanks I appreciate all answers.
(still waiting for my $10 from last week's evil MC)
In anyevent it has been a ho hum for me because I haven't used a token since the bus-subway free transfer was instituted.
Ah. An arriviste rather than a born New Yorker. (Either that or your parents never took you on the subway.)
This is all for a paper
I don't think so
I have used tokens in the past, but only ones that my parents purchased and gave me right before I was to use them. I almost never rode the subway before 1996 (I think there were YEARS where I didn't). In 1996, I had a student rail pass and didn't take any rides on weekends. In 1997, they moved to student Metrocards, and I used Metrocards for when the student MC didn't work.
The only time I purchased and used tokens was the two times when I rode the Roosevelt Island Tram in May 1999 and September 2000. In the latter case, I ended up with two extra tokens I had to use on the subway and I kept on forgetting to use (and I couldn't use them on Thursdays or Fridays).
So I guess I did use the token, those two tokens from RI that I used on the subway count in every way.
OH! I forgot when I wanted to ride the express bus with my student pass: Because I didn't have $1.50 in change I had to buy a token from the booth at Chambers (1/2/3/9) and use that for the $1.50 discounted fare.
Metrocard brought many great features such as bus to subway transfers, easier storage and the freedom form of purchacing metrocard via credit card at mvm's, at your local store, online and auto refilling for seniors and the disabled
Almost no one on Subtalk, because we all know how much money you save with Metrocard.
But in the real world, I still observed many tokens and coins being used. Though I admit coin usage on buses seems to be way down now that tokens are gone. The idea of using metrocard must finally be sinking in to even the most recalcitrant New Yorkers.
Chambers St. was also used as a setting for the 1955 movie "Somebody up there likes me", a biopic of the fighter Rocky Graziano. A young Paul Newman in the title role was there with co-star Sal Mineo. The real star of the scene was the BMT Standards, with car# 2354 where Paul and Sal boarded. The Chambers St. signs were covered and said 14th Street. Some extras were on the unused center platform as ordinary commuters. And yes, the original incandescent chandeliers were still working.
Bill "Newkirk"
Anyway, I think it was a cute article. Cool! Even my C.H.U.D. comment was used!
Yikes, what if Chambers St. had to be closed to all train traffic?
Oh well, they'll just have to send the weekend J's to Broad, and next year NOT terminate the M there middays...too bad, what a shame. < /sarcasm >
Seriously though, it's pretty sad that we'd have to have some tragedy happen to Chambers Street for the MTA to end this nonsense of terminating the M and J there.
They could always rip the middle tracks out then it has NO choice but to go to Broad all times ;-). Jokes aside I agree, it IS sad that such extreme measures would have to be taken to end the nonsense of terminating the J there. Heck I'd like to see the J headover to Broad since people lose out on the transfer at Fulton St; although riders heading toward Lex Av would still have a transfer.
Didn't hear too much Subtalkers bring this up but too bad Chambers didn't get a makeover when Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall did back in the mid 90's, shows that this piece of garbage that is a station was flat out DISSED!
Hehe, that's the same sugestion David Greenberger had mentioned when we were on the Eastern Division tour (if something bad happened to the middle tracks). It worked for Canal Street, trains can no longer terminate there. Terminating the weekend J's there was even more ludicrous!
Didn't hear too much Subtalkers bring this up but too bad Chambers didn't get a makeover when Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall did back in the mid 90's, shows that this piece of garbage that is a station was flat out DISSED!
You know what, I have thought of that. Most of the time when one station in a complex gets rehabbed, so do all of them. Actually Chambers got dissed twice. Brooklyn Bridge was renovated twice. Once when they abandoned Worth Street and changed the alignment of the station in the 60's (gobbling up onee of the local platforms at Chambers. The 6 now runs in the location of the former Broad Street Bound local platform at Chambers), and then again in the 90's, while Chambers was left to deteriorate further.
This is a V train to Jamaica Center Parsons Archer. The next stop will be Myrtle Avenue. Change here for the S Line.
It's hard to believe that it could possibly be even worse now.
I wish I could see it again to judge for myself.
IIRC the water problem seemed to be mostly on the north end of the east side of the station. I am assuming that your pictures are of the side platform on the east side.
wayne
The leaks over the northeast corner of the station are coming from ground water.
The leaks over the northbound platform at the south edge of the mezzanine are coming from a combination of sources - storm drains and also waste lines.
wayne
We all would have been better off not knowing about the waste lines. Thank you.
---Chapter 11
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.
I remember when news was posted on here when waste flow was being dumped on the IRT Flushing platform at Times Square and the MTA was under pressure for correcting the problem. This situation is no different.
Somebody call Ralph Kramden. We need an expert on leaking waste lines and that expert is Edward L. Norton. And not the current Hollywood actor either !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Yup, that't the current Queens Bound track and local platform.
avid
wayne
Thanks for the link Heypaul !
---Choo Choo
Jeremy
Apparently the FARE INCREASE also applies to transit-folks emails.
Wonder if attaching a scan of fifty cents more will get it in... :)
I'll suspect he'll answer you tomorrow.
I have to disagree with you there Paul.
I hope it does prod the MTA to do a clean-up of the station and maybe do some restoration of the remaining side platform (It would be too much to hope that they would knock down the walls to expose the side platfrom on the downtown side).
While it doesn't have the "ambiance" of IRT Subway Station #1 - City Hall it does have it's own charm and it is a shame to see it deteriorate like that.
What platform? All knocking down the walls would do is expose what's left of it and give a view of the IRT.
The best they could (should) do is replace the ugly tile on the "new" wall with tile matching the rest of the station.
So what is wrong with that?
wayne
-The Peel
-The Odor
-The Stain
-The Crumble
wayne
Painting the ceilings brown didn't help; the mould ate right through it like rats thru cheese. The whole station's a moonscape.
wayne
This is misleading, at best and incorrect at worst. My understanding was that the side platforms and center platform were closed as excess when the Nassau Street subway was extended beyond Broad Street and connected to the BMT tunnels to Brooklyn. The station originally had five platforms (including the two side platforms) because it was a terminal station for several lines as well as an LIRR line before the Nassau Street subway was completed.
Perhaps you are thinking of some BRT service used LIRR tracks during a few summers back in the early days.
wayne
Close. The joint service from Broadway Ferry to Rockaway Park (later from Delancey Street, then from Chambers Street) was a joint operation of the LIRR and BRT, generally involving alternating trains of each road, according to Seyfried.
From 1913 to 1917 LIRR trains did indeed end at Chambers Street station. This was the LIRR's only entry into Manhattan other than at Penn.
One my true regrets in life is that I wasn't around to see those trains in use. But think about crowds of beachgoers leaving from there. Families, children running around, everyone laden with baskets and blankets and gee-gaws for the beach. It really must have been a scene. Got me wondering if the trains ran express through Brooklyn down the middle Broadway track. I could see people waiting on the local platforms watching the beach trains roll by.
However, express service did run right from the beginning. IIRC, the first ever run (steam) from Broadway Ferry made it to the Chestnut Street incline in 10 minutes and made it all the way to Rockaway Park in under a half hour end-to-end.
Must have been some great ride.
You ain't kidding. Steam? Wow. Ripping past all the stations, the buildings lining the route blurring. The whistle blowing...must have been a delight to that era's railfans. A steam powered super express special train down the elevated iron road passing over the busy streets through the heart of Brooklyn headed for the cooling breezes and refreshing waves of the Atlantic Ocean!
Oh yeah.
10 minutes!!! That train passed 15 stations in 10 minutes. That must have been one hell of a ride!
Still, a good, and long-overdue, story on the disgrace that is Chambers.
I thought that pre-Chrystie Street when the Nassau Loop was still in operation all 4 tracks at Chambers were in regular use, and perhaps also the middle platform.
The 1959 route guide posted on this site lists a West End local terminating at Chambers weekdays.
I'd have liked to see the station in late 1917. Middle of the Great War boom, the Jamaica line opened, the connection from upper Myrtle opened, the Manhattan Bridge connection funneling ALL 4th Ave service to Chambers St (including the Sea Beach line), plus the already existing service from Canarsie and Broadway Brooklyn. Must've been one BUSY place.
Between 1995 and 2001, all four tracks were in use at the same time. Midday J trains ran through (outer tracks) while M trains terminated (inner tracks). NYCT is planning to restore this service pattern next year.
Robert
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=494286
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=494416
Robert
avid
(This type of development is happening all over eastern Queens, for the most part beyond the reaches of existing subway lines. A it's also straining the capacity of feeder bus routes and making a bad parking situation worse.)
Here is the reality of New York City's zoning laws. You can build more density, on smaller lots, with less parking, than just about anywhere else in the country. So how come "conservatives" and developer interests continually blast New York's zoning laws as unduly restrictive, and blame it for the housing crisis?
Anyone here have an example of a place where, 10 miles out from the CBD, you can replace a house on a 50 foot lot with a six unit building with four parking spaces? Or, replace a house on a 60 foot lot with three rowhouses on 20 foot lots with no parking spaces, save the ones on the street? Where else in the region can you convert a one-family home to a two-family home just about anywhere?
If the suburbs were zoned like New York City, the entire housing shortage would disappear in two years. They aren't because the suburbs do not want additional moderate income households within their borders. Many of the conservatives who decry government intervention live in those suburbs, and commute in to work at the Manhattan Institute or write for the Post. Suburban zoning is the great "conservative" hypocrisy.
Liberals are hypocrites on housing too. If more government spending on housing made housing cheaper, we'd have the cheapest housing in the country. In fact we do, but only for insiders who get the real good government-related deals like Mitchell Lamas and succession rights in rent controlled buildings. The rest of us pay through the nose.
One more example that proves that the difference between a conservative and a liberal is not in how much goverment they want, but in where they want the government interference/spending to take place.
I subscribe to an upstate rural newspaper. It's amazing to hear the local pols there complain when the government spending THEY like gets cut.
And looking locally on SubTalk, even our resident conservative Californian wants government to subsidize service on a poorly utilized subway line in south Brooklyn that mostly serves low density housing.
The housing shortage in this city could easily be solved by expelling all those illegal immagrants who seem to get by just fine on $20k a year and still find money to send home
$40k is the povety line in NYC, don't make me laugh.
High density housing has it's place in area where thier is excellant mass transit such as manhattan, brookyn heights, fort green. Residents are either in walking distance or close to convient frequent subway service
areas such as sheepshead bay, marine park, si where a car is a neeeded, hgher density housing just causes stress, smog and parking problems. Take a ride over to bensonhurst in the summer. You couldnot pay me to live thier
Thier is no housing shortage. thier is a issue with people having the eduation to earn enough money to afford to pay thier rent. That is why it is so important to not overpay people for jobs such as S/A .
The money could be much better spent on educating out citzens and lowering taxes to attract more business
If you don't thing business choose to locate thier operations where it costs them 30% less to operate you are crazy
The city has to do something to stop the over developemnt and hotch potch development. the problem is that many of the new structures clash with each other in appearence and do not provide enough off street parking
As I said, exclusionary zoning is the "free marketeers" great exception.
Intersting proposal, one that would increase capacity on the Flushing Line.
Except that to get the 24 plus Flushing Trains per hour through the 60th Street tunnel, what is now the R would have to be diverted to the 63rd Street tunnel. And, therefore, what is now the V would have to be diverted to 8th Avenue, terminating at the WTC.
Problem -- this would shift empty space in the 63rd Street tunnel to the Steinway tube. The Steinway tube goes direct to Grand Central while the 60th Street tunnel skirts the north of the CBD, causing people to transfer to the Lex.
I like my idea better. Create a bus-only lane in each direction on the LIE west of the Clearview. The lanes would terminate with direct access to a bus terminal in Long Island City. Build a short branch off the 63rd Street line that would end at that same terminal. Run local buses in Queens north-south on the Boulevards, then express on the LIE to the bus terminal. There, riders would board subways that would carry them to Manhattan via 63rd Street, turning south onto the Second Avenue Subway. That's a way to get Second Avenue service to Queens without a new subway line.
Does this envision construction of a flying junction at QBP?
Are we certain that the platforms on the Flushing line can
be shaved back? Although originally constructed that way, they
have been rebuilt several times.
Arti
I am confused by your statement. The Flushing line has always had narrow IRT equipment. The line never had platforms shaved back further than they are now. At one time (prior to 1949) the Astoria line was also IRT size.
Tom
Do you have some documentation of the "separate filler piece" on the Flushing line or Astoria line stations. I used to regularly ride the Flushing line in the late ‘40s and early ‘50s and can remember no such strip. All stations did and still do have a lip that could be cut back without having a need to modify structural elements, and as can be clearly seen in this picture on the Astoria El the wooden platform is made up of planks perpendicular to the tracks, and the planks extend to the edge of the platform without any filler strip.
Tom
I'm curious - exactly how did this work? Was the filler strip bolted on, mounted on hinges or could it be lifted out?
The CA&E interurban line west of Chicago had a similar systems on its high-level platforms. The regular interurban cars were narrow to fit around the "L" but the line also ran freight trains with standard AAR width freight cars. The platform extensions simply had hinges at deck level and large "L" brackets under the decking to hold them horizontal. Every time a freight train came along, a guy riding the front deck of the locomotive (which was narrow) used a stick to push all of the filler strip leaves up and out of the way. Once in a blue moon they'd miss one... CRUNCH!
Fox River Trolley Museum has actually installed this system on its high level platforms, although they don't run anything that's wide enough to require folding the leaves back.
Frank Hicks
http://travel.discovery.com/fansites/worldsbest/subway/subway.html
Incidentally the info must be somewhat out of date, since they quote Paris fares in francs - the euro replaced the franc (and the deutschmark, lira, peseta, etc.) over a year ago.
7 out of 10 would have looked better.
But who cares what the Travel Channel thinks - we all know our system is No. 1.
A lot of other systems are prettier than NYCT, but when you're used to SEPTA, size alone is enough to make you jealous, what with our two line (three if you count PATCO) system. And on top of it, NYCT looks very clean when you compare it to SEPTA.
Mark
I hope you get chance to ride it someday.
Mark
That's very funny. Yes, LA has a more modern and cleaner looking system, but that doesn't make it better than NYC subway. How many other cities have expresses? 24/7/365 service to all but 3 stations? Such far reaching service?
If you're gonna use things like the 'sterile' appearance that characterizes these new faceless subways, then yes, NYCT is probably not a top 10 system. Of course NYC wouldn't be anywhere near the top 100 cities either.
I'm posting my thoughts based on the results of the rankings, but if you want to talk convenience, then I would say that a fair ranking should be based solely on ridership. This would be like asking every person if they think their system is convenient, and a person riding the system would be a "yes." If someone does not think their subway is convenient, then they obviously wouldn't ride. Thay way, Mosocw is the most convenient and NYC is around #5.
Most people in Moscow who don't consider the subway convenient have no choice but to take it anyway, as car ownership is very low by U.S. standards.
Granted, they did mention the strong points of each system, but I don't think that was their sole basis. A small system simply cannot compare to a large one.
There WAS some mention of speed and effcenicy, but that's not NYCT's strong point either.
Speed isn't, but NYCT is definitely the top US system when it comes to efficiency. NY uses it's fare to cover more of its operating costs than any other system (in the US). I don't think that any other system uses as much as 50%, NYCT is in the 60s.
Then how come Sao Paulo is on that list? They only have 30 route miles. I mentioned this before, it's pretty obvious how they came up with the seven cities to rank. Those seven cities are the most important and famous in the world.
Speed isn't, but NYCT is definitely the top US system when it comes to efficiency.
True, NYCT is more efficent in that respect. I was thinking of efficency in respcet to how many people use the system. This chart shows what I mean.
I don't tend to buy single fares - last Thursday when I went to London, I simply bought a one day travelcard from Birmingham Snow Hill - yes, from a station over 2 hours from London - it only cost me £19.45 too.
What I don't get is why Chiltern don't have a look at Midland Mainline's service pattern. Midland Mainline run fast trains which stop across the platform from slow trains at Leicester and overtake them. Chiltern could do the same at Banbury giving much better journey times from Birmingham and the Black Country whilst not cutting off people from small places in between.
: )
Mark
I was reviewing all my photos I took of Sao Paulo's Metro last week, and I decided that SP is my favorite subway system I've ever ridden. London previously had that distiction.
As I'm nearly an engineer, I'm very impressed by how the Metro was built and how it operates. I took a behind-the-scenes tour of the Metro where I saw the control center and a yard. Their train control system has been upgraded three times in the past 30 years to the most advanced computer software probably in any subway. There are huge Star Trek-like screens that show where every train is and how on-time they are. They have cameras that can estimate how many people are wating at a platform. The signal system can handle a headway of 70 seconds. I could go on, but I'd probably bore you all to death :-)
Not at all! I just expect people to root for their home subways. Sounds like you have a lot more to root for than us SEPTA riders do!
Mark
Shame London was only 4th... but I guess those trains in the deep tube lines do get a bit hot and cramped. Give me a Fast Amersham any day!
Their idea of what's cool is a bit much though - I mean, singling out Europe station in Paris, when there are so many more interesting stations...
Any nominations?
: )
Mark
Perhaps LA, I know the Red Line isn't completely useless, but it certainly looks that way at first glance. Plus they lost out big time when they didn't join the Blue and Yellow lines.
Hehe, in a few years, Seattle, with it's Central Link LRVs in the bus tunnel, one whole line that goes virtually nowhere, slowly.
Most of PATCO's stations look nice, and that makes SEPTA's look all the worse by comparison.
LA's red line isn't completely useless, but there sure is a lot more Los Angeles west of where the Wiltshire Boulevard branch ends. When I visited the La Brea Tar Pits it was a pain to have to get out and catch a bus the rest of the way. More important than mammoth bones, UCLA's campus is still further west in that direction, and a subway service to that large university seems like a good idea to me.
Mark
Mark
On thetube.com they reasoned that the London Underground closes between midnight and 5 am because of the two track system.
And lastly, the NYC subway is the only system that is either 3 or 4 tracks on most of the lines, which means that individual tracks can be selectively taken out of service while keeping the system running. As mentioned on thetube.com, which is the official website of the London Underground, they need the off-time from midnight to 5am to do repairs. Since LU is 2 tracks practically the whole way, there's no flexibility to close parts of the system while keeping it running.
You could say the same about London Underground. There are several stations served by both LU and another operator on the same tracks (eg Gunnersbury to Richmond on the District Line). LU is thus not distinct from main line railways.
PATH runs only 30-minute headways overnight
To be fair, you'd probably need more than that in London, especially on the tube lines through the West End. Anyway, the night buses are very good.
which allows them to take large sections of track out of service for maintenance when they have to.
It looks like similar single-track efforts would be possible on most lines in London. In some places there's even the luxury of 4 tracks!
The tunnels under the East River are all 2-track, and the MB is 2 separate 2-track lines. As important as the 4 track lines are the multiple routing options that allow a cross-river route and its associated links to be taken out of service without totally killing the whole line.
Examples this weekend: 60th St tunnel is closed with only moderate disruption; R goes down 6th Ave and N riders can switch to a 7 at QP. Also, MB south side is closed but Q trains can use the Montague.
Someone refresh my memory -- does Dayton have a flat fare? I've never ridden it myself.
Just to make a point, many NYCT lines run more often overnight then some cities peak service
All former Soviet systems are, as far as I remember, flat fare. This includes such systems as Moscow and St. Petersburg, and Moscow is the heaviest-ridership system in the world, though not as geographically extensive as NYC (they are considering a separate zone-based fare system for a new "light" metro line in Moscow to be opened late this year, though - but that is still to happen). Mexico City metro is also flat-fare (except, possibly, for one semi-suburban line), and its ridership numbers are also ahead of NYC. In both cases we are talking about well over 100 miles of flat fare rides. I am sure some of the other major systems have flat fares as well. Of course, so are many smaller systems (Montreal, if I remember it right, would be one). Incidentally, both in Moscow and in Mexico City the flat fare is a fraction of that in NYC (in Mexico it is MN$2 pesos - less than 20 US cents). And in Mexico (though not in Moscow) the fare is even "flatter" than in NYC - no bulk discounts, daily/weekly/monthly passes bus transfers, just a 2-peso ticket to enter (children under 5 exempt).
As for the 24/7 service, this IS much more rare (banned by Russian RR safety/maintenance standards, for that matter, if I remember right). St. Petersburg (the one in Russia), for one, could have used it, since, once they raise the bridges at night to let the ships pass, you now have to swim to cross the rivers, even though the metro lines cross the same rivers in tunnel.
Mind if I ask the year? Cause I think after '91 they went to a 12am-5-am. Now there are big gates on the BSS where the PATCO concourses intersect the Broad St and Locust St concourses.
I think Chambers has more charm than many other stations in the system. In case anyone else on the board is interested, here's the text of the email I wrote. Some of these thoughts I've posted on SubTalk before...
In Defense of Chambers Street, and New Proposals
Randy,
I saw your post on SubTalk requesting opinions about the ugliest station in the subway system. I post occasionally under the handle 'Keystone Pete'. As a daily subscriber to The Times, and as a "railfan," I do enjoy your column! I can't be at the station today, but I thought you should hear from someone who's not on board with the SubTalk consensus on the ugliness of poor, much-maligned Chambers Street.
Although it might win the contest for "most neglected" station, I think it has a certain beauty akin to that of an old ruin, or, more evocatively, that of a bombed-out European cathedral, post WWII. The high ceilings give the place a vastness and openness present in almost no other underground station. There are remnants of the BMT's terra-cotta decor on the unused side platforms which lend character. Yes, this station is in need of much repair and cleaning, but, really, most of the subway could use a good scrubbing and there is always mending to be done in many, many stations at any given time. I suppose you could say that I'm partial to this station since it still contains vestiges of the "glory years" (as if there really were any) of the subway. In its heyday, it was a BMT hub, and almost never empty (or so I'm told -- I'm only 33 and not a native New Yorker).
I would propose that the ugliest stations in the system are the ones which are the most utilitarian, and therefore completely lacking in any semblence of character. Candidates would include Lexington Av./53rd Street E/V Station, which is completely unadorned and always was, even before the current construction. Or how about any of the stations included in that misguided attempt to "make all the stations look the same" along the Broadway BMT -- the decor commonly referred to by SubTalkers as "refrigerator tile." Thankfully, in the most recent rennovations for the Manhattan stations on this line, the tile was removed and the mosaics rehabbed, but you can still see this boring, institutional, bland tile decor along the 4th Avenue line in Brooklyn all the way from Union Street to Bay Ridge. Lastly, I'd pick any station in which that glazed orange tile exists, such as those on the 63rd St. line, our newest, or 49th Street on the previously-discussed Broadway BMT line (N,W,R). I've always wanted to rip those ugly bricks down. I'm sure you'd find some decent mosaics hidden there, which are much easier on the eyes, and less evocative of a modern high school hallway.
The New York system, having begun during the "city beautiful" movement in the early 20th Century, is the only one in the country with such a variety of styles, craftsmanship and artwork. However, being both the oldest and the largest, it is inevitable that at any given time, much of its infrastructure will be in need of some repair and cleaning. I've seen most other subway systems in the country. If you are ever in Philadelphia on the Broad Street subway or the Market-Frankford eleveated, or in Boston in their subway, think about Chambers Street again. I'll bet you a ten-pack of tokens it won't seem so ugly then!
Kind Regards,
Peter Farrell
It should be noted that I did correct myself in a subsequent email about New York having the "oldest" subway; that distinction goes to Boston, as we all know, even though that "subway" was really just a trolley underpass.
---Choo Choo
Heavy rail trains were running underground through the Tremont Street tunnel in 1901.
Also, is it possible to see any remnants of the out-of-service Boylston St-Pleasant St section today? If so, I'd like to peek on my annual Memorial Day weekend trip to Boston and Maine this year.
I think Randy was referring to stations in an ugly state of repair, rather than those that never were aesthetically pleasing. What Chambers St was, or could be again is a whole other matter. But right now, it's hard to deny it takes the palm for most dilapidated station--at least in Manhattan below 125th St.
http://mta.info/planning/sas/sas_contact.htm
Tuesday, May 13, 2003,
4 p.m.
El Museo Del Barrio, Heckscher Building
1230 Fifth Avenue at 104th Street Manhattan
Directions:
(6 )to 103 St;
M1, M2, M3, M4 or M106 bus
The Culver picture you posted is at the east end of the Ninth Avenue station (on today's West End line - W/M train). The portals are the entrance to the former lower level of the station. They're still there and look pretty much like the above photo still.
The FAS line uses two sets of hippos (R68's), however at around 10:30 every night, one of the two trains in revenue service uses the Malbone (SB Coney Island track), to Prospect Park and discharges there. The T/O then pulls the train to the Lincoln Road marker and goes home from there if his shift is done (after signing out, of course.)
So if you time it right, you can be on that train.
The tunnel was pretty busy up until about 1958 or so when the crossover was installed north of Prospect Park station. Prior to that, all southbound Franklin Shuttles stopped at the southbound platform, then proceeded south of the station, stopping on the local track just short of Parkside Ave. prior to changing ends and negotiating the crossovers back to the northbound shuttle (local) track at Prospect Park. Was fun to watch from the railfain window of a southbound Brighton Local (never Express, BMT Standards, of course) waiting for the interlocking to clear prior to proceeding on.
-- Ed Sachs
-Larry
http://www.culvershuttle.com/culver_today/pages/culver040.htm
As for the old Culver shuttle, portals are still there and the last time it was used in regular service was in 1975, which it led to 9 Av lower level. HOWEVER the last time a train really went there was the farewell to the R30 ERA fantrip in 1993.
Then you missed the Steeplecab Special fantrip last September. Our first stop was the lower level of 9th Ave. It was nice to be back after 9 years! (I rode the R-30 farewell trip, too!)
--Mark
Now, what's the best codec and settings to use for the web? These two are on the heavy side (4 and 6 meg), so I want to shrink them down without losing too much quality. Any suggestions?
Right now they're as follows:
Video:
15 fps (this is the rate my camera takes at anyway)
Cinepak compression - 128 kb/sec, 50% spatial quality
DiVX came out about a meg larger so I ditched it. Also more people seem to have Cinepak than DiVX at this point.
Auido:
11.5Khz, 8 bit, Mono.
My experiences with the uptown lex is that the express service almost always rides slow between 14th and Grand central
Is the MTA cyrrebty modifying signals to allow increased service
Anyone have any Ideas
http://www.ny1.com/ny/TopStories/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=1&subtopicintid=1&contentintid=30165
maybe it is a praylude to shorter trains at the older intervals
I have only written and gotten positive feedback from transit operations(a freind of mine gave me a contact high up last month)
As for 14th St, they definitely need to do something about the signals at 8th Ave. As I've mentioned, the current signaling pretty much insures that only 1 train can be moving between 6th and 8th Aves. at any one time. I figured they were going to wait for CBTC to do anything, but maybe things have reached a crisis and they'll tweak the signals now. It shouldn't be too hard to reduce the intervals between train movements at 8th Ave without compromising safety.
This should be relatively easy to improve if needed.
-- Ed Sachs
Don't get confused. I said the TA was studying ways to modify the signals to increase capacity prior to CBTC. It's years away.
This is something sooner, and I'm not sure what. Perhaps more aren't being added to the peak service, but the peak service is expanding in time.
You can't really blame NYCT for delays due to suspicious package incidents - the response to those is decided by politicians, not by the people running the MTA.
And you certainly can't blame them for other police activity and incidents.
Which is not to say that everything is fine on the UWS, just that the things you're reporting don't sound like NYCT's fault.
One of my pet peeves with the 1/9 is to be sitting on the 1 train, which I boarded after passing up the 9 preceding it, when VCP is backed up (which only happens on days that end in the letter "Y"). The 9 that I couldn't take is stopped at my station 238 but it refused to open the doors even though it is stuck there for several minutes. Amazing. What would be the harm in opening at 238 if you are stuck? I could then take the 9 in addition to the 1 in the belief that more times than not, the 9 will wind up stopping at 238
What do they do? Get off ONE STOP prior and walk. They get to their
doorstep BEFORE their train lurches into their station.
Try that, Bill?
W225 on the 9
But that doesn't change the point that skip stop on 1/9 is idiotic, David Greenberger did a detailed calculation where he tried to bias the results in favor of skip/stop and the numbers showed the majority of people lose time with it.
Make use of that spiffy subway-bus transfer gigaloo.
Trains that are supposed to bypass a station should never be stuck in that station, since they aren't supposed to enter until it is possible for them to leave. With that in mind, the harm comes from the once in a blue moon incident where a 9 opens at 238 and in some way, a customer is injured and files suit. then all the shit falls squarely on the back of the train crew for breaking the rules. They're both out of jobs and Transit is out an indeterminate - but large - sum of money.
You expressed my intention perfectly. I can attest to the fact that 9 trains frequently sit at the northbound 238 station waiting for a pocket at VCP.
That happened to me on the J, on the first day of the closings of Halsey &Kosciuszko, Queens-bound side. They skipped from Myrtle all the way to Chauncey (oops!) And the only reason we even stopped at Chauncey is because the train caught up with the Z in front (which is hard to do, because the alternation was ...Z, M, J..., how the J could catch up with the M, wait for M to cross in front, then leave and catch up with Z is beyond me) so it had to stop. They made a series of announcements that the doors would open, then stopped, everybody (Halsey, Gates, Kosciuszko) tried to jumble onto the Manhattan-bound J, for lack of signage pointing out the closed platforms (the T/O didn't know about it either!) and we missed it. On the return trip, (back towards Myrtle) it was actually crowded. By the time I got to to my meeting @ Gates Ave it was damn near over.
The busiest stations are 161, Burnside, and Fordham. Since two of the three stations I mentioned are local stops, the first station also an important hub and transfer, express service is dead.
Imagine a similar Downtown-like borough stop, Borough Hall and the 4 and 5 bypass the "local" stop.
UMM....2 of the three stations you metioned are EXPRESS stops.
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
What I don't understand is why they wait till they get to Pelham Parkway to do the battery runs if the delay was in Manhattan (from the mouth of a C/R). They could do it on Lenox, where the 3 also runs or south of 180th where the 5 also runs, instead royally screwing White Plains Road riders.
also N/B battery runs CANT happen N/B south of E 180 because the 5 is also running express
If over 7 minutes have gone by in the morning rush with no SB locals at 96th, and at least two expresses have come through since the last local, the next express must be switched to the local track and must make all stops to Times Square, where it can resume express service.
Similarly, if over 7 minutes have gone by in the evening rush with no NB locals at Times Square, and at least two expresses have come through since the last local, the next express must be switched to the local track and must make all stops to 96th.
Some T/D's apparently forget about those of us who depend on local service. That's why the directive needs to come from higher up.
The lack of accountability and the lack of info does not help
No new technology is necessary.
Each local station could have a timeclock of sorts, activated either manually by the T/O or automatically when the doors open. If too much time passes, an alarm is sounded and corrective action is taken.
what you refer to are called triggers in programing languages.
If each train identifies itself automatically at each station through a transponder. The central server that replaces tracks each train that passes, it'd call letter's, whether it stops or not.
A flat pannel monitor in front of the dispacher at the interlocking is given a recomendation or serveral recomendatios including time spacing between trains, the concequences the action will inflict etc.
This system could be installed for far less then what you are suggesting and be far more effective, The computer would not control the signals or the switches but rahter be an aid.
Information will be available to analyse train infromation if certain runs routinely run behind schedule and make apropiate scheduling adjustments to keep the line running. An example might be a northbound 1 train always arrives late at it's north bound terminal every day. It's follower is right on it's tail
This train could be scheduled to skip certain stops every day thus reducing a gap that undere your mannual system would not provide information to detect such a trend easily
Even if all that effort is extended, the current information available is not easy to analyze to make quick acurate decisions especially with rather tight headways.
It is obvious from my observation over the years that the dispatchers are not willing to take action unless the situation the fap is huge. Part of the reason is they react instead of take proactive action because they do not have a clear view, I have seen these interlocking boards. Even the newest board recntly installed at CI yard is wowfully antiquated.
The dispatcher lean towards not doing anything because it will cause more trouble if the cahnge cause a problem then if her left it alone. it is this and the manaual fashion that train on time statistics are taken that is not only labor inetensive but prone to fraud.
When the tour guild said he was showing us the new board I asked him where it was. he pointed to a clean looking relic that looks like it belonged in a WWII movie rather then a modern transit operation with dozens of train on the tracks.
It reminded me of the scene from start trek IV where bones goes into the operating room of the hospitol where sulu was being looked at by the doctors who wanted to cut into his skull to look for the problem. Bones said what is this the middle ages and solved the problem by waving a medical devise and sulu wakes up
You also have to consider how overworked most IRT employees are. The TA already gets the maximum amount of cab time out of most crews. Why should a train crew have to log additional cab time just because there is a problem on another line? Think about it!!! A crew is making a 90-min trip from White Plains to Flatbush, with very little time for a bathroom break at Flat, before hitting the road back to WP. The 1 line needs better service. But squeezing more cab time out of 2 and 3 crews is not the answer.
PI= Put in. Prepare a train for service. Check all circuits, hand brakes, signs, BCO, snow block, sealed beams, tail lights, etc..
Most employees don't like the 1 line because they have to do three round trips from Van Cortlandt, and do more work at the terminal after all that.
The 1 train is not totally isolated, between midnight hours (the 2 runs local in Manhattan) and everynight and weekend G.O.s' when the 1 train may run express or the 2/3 trains run local, the ATS (Automated Train Supervision) must be compatbile with the 2 and 3 lines also.
Indeed. Big deal.
The SB 2/3 empties out at Wall in the morning rush. If necessary, run nonstop from there to Flatbush or New Lots. Or even drop out at Chambers and turn through South Ferry, which I suppose could also use the service if there's a problem on the 1/9.
And if an express is already running late, you can't make him even later, just b/c there is a problem on the local track.
Sure you can. The aim of the subway system is to move people, not to get to the terminal on time. Sometimes the best way to move people is to get to the terminal late.
For example, if you have a s/b 2 or 3 make local stops, the T/D is going to get a call from the Line Superintendent if one of his trains is late.
And the T/D will explain what happened and all will be fine. Surely the line superintendent is aware that his line doesn't operate in a vacuum.
And if it's late getting to Brooklyn, chances are it's going to leave late as well.
Perhaps, perhaps not. But by that point rush hour is over, so one train leaving a few minutes late isn't a big deal.
You also have to consider how overworked most IRT employees are. The TA already gets the maximum amount of cab time out of most crews. Why should a train crew have to log additional cab time just because there is a problem on another line? Think about it!!! A crew is making a 90-min trip from White Plains to Flatbush, with very little time for a bathroom break at Flat, before hitting the road back to WP.
So it's worse to keep two paid employees at work for an extra 5-10 minutes than to keep thousands of paying customers stranded on the platform for 30 minutes (when scheduled headways are around the 4-minute mark)?
Between 96th and Chambers, the 1/2/3/9 is a single line. Sometimes one of the routes that serves the line has to make a small sacrifice to alleviate problems on one of the other routes that serves the line. When there's a problem with 2/3 service, the 1/9 picks up the slack where it can (between 96th and Chambers). When there's a problem with 1/9 service, the 2/3 should pick up the slack where it can.
Come on. You've been reading this board for years. You knew that this sort of stuff happens before you accepted the job.
The 1 line needs better service. But squeezing more cab time out of 2 and 3 crews is not the answer.
I'm not talking about regular service. I'm talking about problem resolution. Or are no SB 1/9 trains scheduled to reach 86th Street between 9 and 9:30 in the morning? If there was a stalled train at 103rd (I have no idea what the actual problem was; there were no platform announcements), it wouldn't matter if scheduled headways were ten seconds.
Should be, but it doesn't seem to be. All too often, I find myself getting stuck on a 2 train that does a battery run north of Pelham Parkway. And they wait till they get there to start doing the battery runs, even if the problem was way down in Manhattan. Which makes zero sense given that they could do battery runs along Lenox Avenue (only twice have I ridden a battery run 2 down Lenox), where the 3 also runs or in the South Bronx (only once did I get a battery run here), where the 5 also runs. And more often than not, the next train doesn't come for a while.
And 149-GC to E180 also makes sense, but not in the afternoon rush, unless the following 5 can be diverted to the local track.
I have seen S/B 2 trains run EXP on local tracks from Gun Hill Road to E 180 St
The problem here is the lne employees get judged on thier on time performance which is most likely judged on termina arrival time. This is because thier is no effecient way of keeping track of a train on time perforamce ovet the entire line and to adjust the figures to take into account treain moving to cover other lines issues.
The same problem exists in the bus system where a dispatcher stands at an intersection. Bus drivers who are early wait one stop before the checkpoint to avoid being counted as early when they really are. many people end up missing thier transfer as the checkpoint is ussually located at a major transfer point.
The reported statistics show the bs being on time.
But was it really? NO
Some of these transit employees live in fantasy land. Many workers in the REAL WORLD have to fo what is neccessary in problem situation and generally don't get paid to do so.
If there were a stalled train at 103rd, subsequent trains could be sent express 137th-96th and bypass the problem. Even if no time is saved by running express and the next train is 4 minutes from 137th, that would be an 11 minute gap in service, not a 30 minute gap.
Okay, this would leave, at worst 2 or 3 trains stuck behind the stalled train, but these could be held in 110th, 116th, and 125th St stations, so no-one would be stranded.
I really have no idea what went wrong. It wasn't a stalled train at 96th itself or between 96th and 86th, because then we would have seen 1/9's on the express track and we would have known to demand block tickets.
Exactly. It sounds like quite an achievement to create a 30 minute gap on the 1/9 of all lines in rush hour. Short of a train completely failing on the section between the end of the 3 track section and the switches North of 96th St, I can't think of any way to create such a bad delay.
If a train had failed on the switches, there would have been an obvious service outage and the S/A would have been authorized to distribute block tickets.
I agree his simplistic view may solve one problem but create a bigger one somewhere else.
Tha is most likely why it is not doen.
As for the issue's of cab time, that is why most TA are moving to ATO. It eliminates all the human needs issues. A person can only be cooped up in the cab for a certain period of time
thier is no way one man wihtout can run hundreds of what if senarios with the limited amount of information avaiable.
Once CBTC/ATO is installed and if the TA chooses to add functionality to put trains back on schedule, the issue can be partially resolved. Until then thier wil only be a few daring individulas that would be willing to stick his neck out to try to help riders.
Occasionally on the brighton they will send the circle q express and the diamond local to make up for delays. They only do this in extreme cercumstances
All that and I still had my entire 38 minute lunch. 8-)
D train to Queens? NO problem. D Train to Coney via SeaBits, NO problem. D returning to the Culver? NO problem. Just sign ze papers. :)
Not a bad idead. I have preposed a similar stategy for bus monitoring and control if and when the MTA fially rolls out GPS assisted bus monitoring.
The effort may have became a bit easier. Verizon announced today tha they will install 802.11b wireless hotspots on all of thier phone booths in mnahattan. The Mta could utilize these hotspots in thier effort to monitor and control buses in motion. My plan posted multiple times on bustalk would use 802.11b hotspots to interact in real time with bus opeators adjusting the schedules to reduce bnching and speed the ride
If you just said that you had a 30 minute wait, then what are you complaining about? Either accept the fact that on the west side IRT you might OCCASIONALLY have a delay, or walk. And, the walk from Broadway IRT to CPW IND is nowhere near 20 minutes, unless you have a disability.
Stop whining about your service that arrives every 4 minutes and is 2-3 blocks from your house. I have to walk 4 blocks for a train that will run every 10 minutes at best, 35 minutes apart at worst (during the rush hour my friend). And its happened more than once.
Every line has occasional delays. The CPW local is hardly immune.
And, the walk from Broadway IRT to CPW IND is nowhere near 20 minutes, unless you have a disability.
No, it's about half that. I happen to know that Clayton lives west of the 86th Street IRT station and goes to school west of the 66th Street IRT station. Your suggestion adds about 10 minutes of walking at either end of his trip.
Stop whining about your service that arrives every 4 minutes and is 2-3 blocks from your house. I have to walk 4 blocks for a train that will run every 10 minutes at best, 35 minutes apart at worst (during the rush hour my friend). And its happened more than once.
I live near one of the busiest local stations in the system, in one of the most densely populated neighborhoods in the U.S. The service-to-demand ratio in these parts is mighty low. If locals don't run exactly on time, the crowds quickly become unmanageable and the entire line breaks down. Does your line operate at such tight tolerances?
So for you the IND would probably add only 10 minutes or so, since you could use the newly reopened 70th Street IND exit. That's still unreasonable given the length of the trip (5 minutes once the train comes) and the sort of service the IRT should have.
Arti
I Dispute this. Your train service comes every 3 1/2 minutes during the height of rush hour. That's what your schedule dictates. Additionally, if you stopped being lazy, you'd be able to get a train that comes a little less frequently (Assuming 7 C trains, and 8 B trains, that's 15tph. That's a 4 minute wait. Don't whine about a 4 minute wait) but is less crowded and seems to suffer from less delays.
Don't whine about your area being underserved. It is very well served, with a local train serving the stops at a combined headway of close to/ more than 30tph. That's better than East Side service.
If locals don't run exactly on time, the crowds quickly become unmanageable and the entire line breaks down. Does your line operate at such tight tolerances?
Let's examine my 2 lines. The one I referred to is the "G" line. If the train comes 35 minutes late (standard delay. Some Riders have waited longer than this I've heard multiple times) it will be woefully overcrowded. This is a fact. And another train is not coming behind this one either. AND, it's not because of a delay on a train further up the line.
My other home line; the "A" will commonly become overcrowded if the train is late. This happens all over the place. Except some of us realize that a delay is not really the fault of NYCT, and that it's not the regular service pattern.
You want to compare service-to-demand ratios? Fine.
My station had 5,867,037 fare registrations in 2000. I don't know which G station is yours but the average is somewhere around 1,000,000 fare registration. Do I have 5.9 times as much service as you do? Hmmm, let's see. Do you have scheduled 18-minute minimum rush hour headways? Do you have scheduled 30-minute weekend headways? Do you have scheduled 59-minute late night headways? No, you don't.
My station has less service per passenger than yours does. My station has less service per passenger than most do.
Additionally, if you stopped being lazy, you'd be able to get a train that comes a little less frequently (Assuming 7 C trains, and 8 B trains, that's 15tph. That's a 4 minute wait. Don't whine about a 4 minute wait) but is less crowded and seems to suffer from less delays.
Let me get this straight. Whenever I suggest that someone spend an extra two minutes sitting on a local rather than waiting for a crowded express, I'm told that those two minutes are critical. Yet you call me lazy because I generally don't walk ten minutes past a perfectly good station to a different station that gets less service and whose routes don't take me where I need to go. I don't call that lazy. I call it rational. I see no reason to spend more of my time to pursue an inferior option.
Incidentally, the B and C combined run at only 13 tph in the morning rush.
Don't whine about your area being underserved. It is very well served, with a local train serving the stops at a combined headway of close to/ more than 30tph. That's better than East Side service.
This is a riot. Am I supposed to stand halfway between Amsterdam and Columbus, listen closely, and run to catch whichever train comes first? No, I have to pick a station. Once I pick a station, whichever one I pick, I'm stuck with that station's headways. If I just miss a train, I have to wait for the next train at that station. If there are extended delays at the station I pick, the other station doesn't help me out unless (a) I know that the delay isn't going to end within the next ten minutes and (b) I'm willing to pay a second fare.
Let's examine my 2 lines. The one I referred to is the "G" line. If the train comes 35 minutes late (standard delay. Some Riders have waited longer than this I've heard multiple times) it will be woefully overcrowded. This is a fact. And another train is not coming behind this one either. AND, it's not because of a delay on a train further up the line.
Of course the first train after a 35-minute delay will be crowded. My train is overcrowded even if there's no delay. I'm not talking about a 35-minute delay. I'm talking about a 3-minute delay. If a train on my line is delayed 3 minutes, the crowds on the train and on the platforms become unmanageable. Have you ever experienced 72nd Street during a hot afternoon rush hour when 8 minutes (and three expresses) have passed since the last local? Let's just say that it's a major safety hazard.
My other home line; the "A" will commonly become overcrowded if the train is late. This happens all over the place. Except some of us realize that a delay is not really the fault of NYCT, and that it's not the regular service pattern.
I don't blame anyone for mishaps that can't be avoided. Insufficient service can be avoided. Not a single local train for a half hour, while expresses go by every few minutes, can be avoided. I can't ask for the unavoidable to be avoided, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask for the avoidable to be avoided.
My station had 5,867,037 fare registrations in 2000. I don't know which G station is yours but the average is somewhere around 1,000,000 fare registration. Do I have 5.9 times as much service as you do? Hmmm, let's see. Do you have scheduled 18-minute minimum rush hour headways? Do you have scheduled 30-minute weekend headways? Do you have scheduled 59-minute late night headways? No, you don't.
Why not throw in the length of the train too? My trains are 300 ft long, yours are 510. I think that roughly evens it out, at least during the rush.
This is a riot. Am I supposed to stand halfway between Amsterdam and Columbus, listen closely, and run to catch whichever train comes first? No, I have to pick a station. Once I pick a station, whichever one I pick, I'm stuck with that station's headways.
Your clearly missing the point. You said that your neighborhood was underserved, not your station. Having said this, I'm trying to figure out why the IND is so inconvenient from 72nd st? Where could you possibly be going that makes the IND inconvenient? 66th is the only stop I can think of. 59th IRT stops with the IND, and south of that the IRT is between both of the IND lines all the way to 14th.
I don't blame anyone for mishaps that can't be avoided. Insufficient service can be avoided. Not a single local train for a half hour, while expresses go by every few minutes, can be avoided. I can't ask for the unavoidable to be avoided, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask for the avoidable to be avoided.
A delay is unavoidable. I guess that you're suggesting that those expresses run on the local. All that I see coming from this is a service gap on the 2/3 a little further down the line. Running the express local helps you, but not somebody else.
Why not throw in the width?
Your clearly missing the point. You said that your neighborhood was underserved, not your station.
The IRT is the closer, more convenient, quicker line for most residents of the neighborhood. To them, the IND is relevant only for the slight reduction in crowds it grants the IRT.
Having said this, I'm trying to figure out why the IND is so inconvenient from 72nd st?
I don't live at 72nd Street. If I did, I'd have the 2/3 as well as the 1/9. I live at 86th Street, west of Broadway. The IND is three long blocks away -- half a mile, ten minutes.
When the Queens IND issue comes up, I point out that the V takes four minutes longer than the E to get from Roosevelt to Queens Plaza, and I'm invariably reprimanded by someone who insists that he can't spare the four minutes.
If four minutes seated on a climate-controlled R-46 is too much to ask, then why should I walk ten minutes through the heat or cold or rain or snow, only to reach a line that runs less frequently and leads to longer walks at the other end?
Where could you possibly be going that makes the IND inconvenient? 66th is the only stop I can think of. 59th IRT stops with the IND, and south of that the IRT is between both of the IND lines all the way to 14th.
Lincoln Center? Times Square? (You know, the biggest transfer point in the system.) South Ferry? Borough Hall? Atlantic Avenue? (Another big transfer point, in many ways an alternate to Times Square.) Reaching any of those destinations via IND entails at least five minutes of walking. That brings us up to fifteen minutes of extra walking -- all so that I can wait longer for the train.
Most of my trips involve transfers. I'm afraid the IND doesn't have stunning connections to the rest of the system.
A delay is unavoidable. I guess that you're suggesting that those expresses run on the local. All that I see coming from this is a service gap on the 2/3 a little further down the line. Running the express local helps you, but not somebody else.
Running the express local helps the thousands of people waiting at, or waiting to get to, the 12 local stations on the line.
It's called sharing the pain. Rather than keep some people stranded on the platform for a half hour, their delay can be cut to ten minutes at the expense of a delay of a few minutes to express passengers (who could either wait for the next express or sit out the local stops). There's no excuse to keeping passengers stranded on the platform, with no access to other lines or other stations or even the northbound platform. Not only was the S/A not authorized to distribute block tickets, she insisted that "there's nothing wrong with the trains!" That's inexcusable.
I know I'm repeating myself, but if I were you, in decent weather I'd definitely be walking to Bway between 93rd and 94th so that I had my pick of trains.
6 extra minutes of walking at 4 mph (8 minutes at 3 mph), 40 calories burnt off, good chance of catching an express which arrives in midtown at the same time as the local that you'd have caught at 86th.
But if I'm interested in making good time, it's faster to walk to the closest station. Even middays and weekends, my expected wait at 86th is only 2.5 minutes.
And if I'm going to a local stop, there's no point at all.
(As for the exercise -- if anything, I walk too much for my own good. I'm not overweight, but I have occasional problems with my left knee. If only I didn't enjoy walking, I'd be fine!)
This is of course not an option for people with difficulty walking. It also probably takes 2 minutes longer on average than using the nearest local, but it's good exercise too.
A=Adam
C=Charlie
D=Delta
Well, I like to call it Barely ;-) b/c the service is unacceptable but Bravo will do.
Jimmy
The 1/9 is a single route, just like the circle/diamond-6 (moreso, perhaps, since the two 6's split up in the Bronx), and there's less 1/9 service than 6 service. (We've recently been granted 20 tph for part of the morning rush. Until September, we never had more than 15. There's also less 2/3 service than 4/5 service.
The B/C is largely irrelevant to most of us, since the bulk of the neighborhood is closer to Broadway than to CPW, although it does slightly reduce the crowds that would otherwise populate the 1/9 and an alternate route can come in handy at times. (The CPW line is also useful to some East Siders, BTW. The walk from 5th is the same length as the walk from West End, but without three busy avenues to cross, and the crosstown buses move fast through the park.) Certainly, the CPW line is entirely irrelevant to someone who's already waiting at an IRT station.
West Side locals often bypass local stations -- not so much anymore, since a procedural change of some sort was made on 9/15/02, but all the time before that (and not just during the WTC-related reroutes -- this goes back over ten years). I used to have to wait for the second local at 72nd (since the first wasn't making local stops) two or three times each week. I once had to let two locals go by (on a Sunday evening!), and as I was getting off the third at 86th, a fourth rattled through on the express track. Just yesterday, I was on a SB 2 at 14th that met a SB 1, but local passengers couldn't take either since the 1 was bypassing everything until Chambers.
The situation is bad on the East Side, no doubt about it -- but it's only a hair better on the West Side.
As for bus service, it's not terrible but it could be better. The M10 doesn't come all that often, but as a solely residential avenue with a subway directly underneath, it doesn't get very crowded. The M7 and M11 aren't very reliable, IME, but where they overlap they're not too bad. The M104 is pretty frequent, and IIRC it's actually lost ridership over the years (largely due to MetroCard, I think -- I used to ride the M104 whenever I needed to transfer to a crosstown, but now I take the subway), but it gets stuck in traffic. The M5 used to have long headways (by Manhattan standards) but quick service. It still has long headways (10 minutes middays, according to the Guide-a-Rides, although I find that I usually end up waiting about 12), but service is much slower than it was a few years ago. Between 72nd and 106th we have no limiteds at all -- the M10 had a limited variant for a few years, and the M7 had a short trial, but that's it. (I used to think we could use limited service on Broadway, either on the M104 itself or with a northward extension of the M57 or a southward extension of the M60. Given the reduced ridership of the M104, I'm not so sure anymore -- perhaps the money would be better spent downstairs, improving 1/9 service.)
You know the crosstowns as well as I do, so I won't mention them, except to comment that I was once on a (midday!) M86 that took a full 30 minutes to get from Broadway to CPW. At 5th I got off and walked the rest of the way to Lex -- I was afraid that my transfer would expire before the bus reached Madison! It's not usually that bad, but I long for the days of the RTS's (or their predecessors) -- the buses were somewhat more crowded but they made much better time.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
But someone on nyc.transit did some digging this morning and came up with some more detailed information.
The basic story is that the rush patterns will be extended on the 14th Street and Lexington lines, and the Lexington local will get shorter headways.
Mark
The Nassau Line Reconfiguration project was supposed to relocate all service to the west side platform, but this allegedy would have required tearing up the Brooklyn Bridge plaza right after it was built, and so only the portion north of Chambers was reconfigured.
But perhaps if the new Lower Manhattan Tunnel were built, or the Montigue was hooked up as discussed, the Jamaica super-shuttle and/or the Airtrain could terminate in the east platform, with subway service shifted to the west, and the entire station rehabilitated. The tail tracks are already there.
Agreed. It's magnificent. All spruced up, it could be the subways Grand Central Terminal. One of the few real "original design" pieces of transit infrastructure left in the city. Standing on the platforms you can easily transport your mind back to 1925 or somewhen like that. Considering the huge tenement population that swirled around it, Chambers Street was rightly configured for the needed services it offered. The BMT was a serious railroad.
It's another 37 cent stamp. some paper, an envelope. Other than that, you lose nothing.
Reconfiguring Chambers to use one platform would be difficult due to grade changes. It would also make it impossible to terminate trains at Chambers, as the J does on weekends and the midday M is tentatively scheduled to do next year. We've already lost the option of terminating at Canal, and when the Canal realignment is complete, even Essex will be difficult (trains from the north could still terminate on the middle track but they'd be competing with trains from the south). Even though one could argue (and I'd probably agree) that nothing should be scheduled to terminate at Chambers (or Canal), it would be nice if a stalled train at Fulton SB didn't force a temporary service cutback to Marcy.
I can't keep track of all these similar threads. I don't remember where what was mentioned anymore. There are at least three or four threads going on right now at the same time about Chambers Street, and two or three threads about the former LIRR Rockaway Woodhaven stations.
Why can't they use the crossovers north of the station to pull that off?
Well too bad for them. The loop from the Willy down to the tunnel is the perfect example of what a hithertofor trolley car-riding population might consider as the next advance in transportation. I love its shortness, the quirky slicing into lower Manhattan, off the bridge and into the tunnel. And it's the only Manhattan subway route with NO numbered streets as stations! Heh. Never saw that mentioned here before.
Which, undoubtedly, is a major reason why Chambers Street has been allowed to deteriorate so terribly.
Jimmy ;)
Chuck Greene
Jimmy :{
You may know this already, but Johan, the site administrator, is considering shutting down the non-aviation forum because of all the tension and flaming. I'd be sorry to see that happen, as it's nice to have an area where just about anything can be discussed without being off-topic.
If you want to see forums where there are never any off-topic discussions, the boards at bodybuilding.com are the perfect example. I used to think that was because the moderators acted quickly to kill any off-topic materials. In fact, that's not the case, as nothing off-topic gets posted in the first place. I suspect that's because of the, er, focused mind sets of the hardcore muscleheads who make up most of the regulars ... and I'm not saying this in a favorable manner :)
A bodybuilding forum sounds like it would have people whose only thought is lifting weights :-) I lift weights and where I go, no matter the time, you see some of the same people in there no matter what.
http://www.straphangers.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?action=intro
They have enough OT postings to satisfy anyone.
Just don't post anything transit-related that isn't a complaint, or the mods might get upset :)
OT isn't always bad, remember the Softball challenge?
Not much rapid transit, but pluny of RxR toipics, e.g. LIRR, NY & Atl, Fallen Flags (NH, NYC, etc.), NYS Railfan, trolley & tourist lines, etc.
You'll find me there about once a week.
Jimmy
I couldn't care less about which buses are being moved from which depot to which depot (which is the direction where most of their conversations go), there are occassionally good threads, but too occassionally.
One thing I can say about BusTalk is that they usually stay on topic and don't get into political rants.
Bill "Newkirk"
Now that must be a relief!
I like subways, light-rail, commuter and inter-city electric trains. I don't indentify with trolleys (I was born in the 80s), and I never really got into mainline railroading and diesel locomotives since I never lived by any of those types of lines in Queens.
All the major bus companies are hurting, meanwhile more & more cities are adding light rail to there commuter transportation systems.
Take the CNG city bus & compare it's cost (purchase & operations) to a light rail system (don't count the cost to install rail or a new road for a bus and the answer is surprising).
Then there is THIS exception to the rule ... I thoughly enjoy the discussions about rapit transit, but have had a interest in RxRing both passenger & freight even BEFORE my rt interest got going. e.g. one of the things I do when I read Railpace is to see if I'm farmiliar with the engines in the photos (EMD GP vs. SD, GE U boats vs. the newer ones, ALco S-1 vs. EMD SW-1, etc.). Then there is BusTalk where I go to work. e.g. the Cooper Group announced it's intention to sell the propertys' that it's depots are on ... was surprised that hardly anyone seemed to be interested in that.
It isn't easy to draw the line between different sorts of passenger carrying rail systems in a generic way. We would end up having weeks of sterile debate about whether a particular system was a subway system, a transit system, a light rail system, a streetcar system, a commuter rail system, a long-distance rail system or something in between.
Jimmy
POSTED: 1:38 p.m. EDT May 12, 2003
UPDATED: 11:20 a.m. EDT May 13, 2003
ESSEX, Md. -- The state of Maryland spent $36 million of taxpayer money on six new locomotives that haven't gone into service, most for more than a year -- and the 11 NEWS I-Team asked state officials if this resembles business as usual or a train-wreck of a deal.
WBAL-TV 11 NEWS I-Team reporter David Collins reported that weeds and rust grow faster than some brand-new locomotives travel. The locomotives are sitting idle instead of pulling passengers up and down the Maryland Rail Commuter's (MARC) Penn line. The state ordered six brand-new engines and most of them are collecting dust at a Maryland Transit Administration (MTA) train yard in Essex, Md., Collins reported.
Why Do Trains Sit Idle?
When the 11 NEWS I-Team asked MTA spokeswoman Suzanne Bond how many locomotives the state purchased and at what price, she replied: "We have an order right now of six locomotives and they cost $6 million each."
That totals $36 million of taxpayer money -- paid in full. The locomotives are state-of-the-art, top-of-the-line engines designed to give customers a faster ride, Collins said. State officials thought they could get the locomotives in service faster if they piggy-backed onto an Amtrak order -- but it hasn't worked out, the 11 NEWS I-Team found out.
At least one of the locomotives has been sitting 1½ years and four others have been idle for more than a year, Collins reported. The last engine arrived seven months ago -- and all had problems.
Bond described what type of modifications need to be made.
"We found out they had some issues with left to right movement on the train, a swaying movement by the locomotive that required a modification," Bond said.
In other words, the engines aren't safe, Collins said. According to Amtrak, there are cracks in a bracket that holds the engines' shock absorber. MTA officials said if it breaks it, it could cause a derailment.
According to MTA officials, manufacturing company Bombardier agreed to fix the problem but worked on Amtrak's locomotives first, which caused a delay in service.
Bombardier declined to comment, and even though most of the locomotives have been sitting for more than a year, state officials said that's not unusual.
"This is the type of process that goes on behind the scenes that people don't often know about, the accepting testing process, the evaluation process, making sure things work well," Bond said.
While Maryland officials find this delay acceptable, other transit authorities do not. The Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (SEPTA) in Philadelphia claims it takes them a week to get a locomotive in service after delivery. In Dallas, Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART) officials said it takes them only a week or two to get their locomotives in service.
The 11 NEWS I-Team asked Joanne Li, an assistant professor of finance at Loyola College in Baltimore, to calculate the interest the state could have earned if it left the $36 million in its stock portfolio using a formula provided by the state.
"They probably could make $680,000 in terms of rate of return," Li said.
And that's only for eight months, Collins said.
"It's certainly been frustrating. You don't want to enter into a process and end up with problems and issues," Bond said.
One of those issues concerns training. The MTA told the 11 NEWS I-Team that they "assumed" Amtrak would take care of it -- but the contract the state provided to 11 NEWS does not indicate that assumption. And Amtrak officials said its only obligation was to inspect the engines.
Now the state is faced with yet another expense -- paying Bombardier $111,000 to teach 50 people to how to operate and maintain the locomotives.
But attorney Troy Powers, who specializes in contract law, says the state negotiated a bad deal, and he finds it incredible that the state has not already taken legal action.
"The taxpayer is sitting with the burden of reparations," Powers said. "It certainly appears that there are flaws in the contract and perhaps somebody either didn't consider those problems may arise, or considered them but was willing to waive them."
The state vows all six locomotives will be in service in July. Amtrak is suing Bombardier and Maryland state officials said the possibility of a lawsuit is something that needs to be discussed, but only after the locomotives are in service, Collins reported.
Stay with TheWBALChannel.com and WBAL-TV 11 NEWS for the latest travel news updates.
smugglerbuddy@aol.com
I also have images of every LIRR signal bridge on the Main Line between HAROLD and JAY.
Feel free to use any of the images I have on www.palter.org/~brotzman
So far, acceleration is decent on 6 car trains, though Lawrence to Inwood is a short hop, so they don't get rolling too fast. Braking and acceleration is audible, as the inverters are on durring this time. No idea what the EMI is like. The chatty voice is loud. The horn sounds like an M-3, which isn't too bad, though I was hoping for something more unique (heh).
The black front is distinctive. I suspect it won't last long, though.
Old habits die hard - I saw one come through the other day - the cab door was open...
Supposedly, they're quite smooth and quiet inside. Haven't gotten on one yet.
They must have a lot of them - the numbers are reaching in the high dobule digits, though I haven't seen 7100 or higher yet.
The yaw dampers are still off on them - I hear they're supposed to reappear sometime in the future.
Oh yes, the gates at Lawrence Ave were acting up the last week, though I think they fixed it....
The train is also very comfortable, quiet and smooth at high speeds, such as those reached on the express run between Valley Stream and Jamaica and again in the Atlantic Avenue tunnel.
In sum: the M-7 is a winner and a great addition to the LIRR.
---Chapter 11
BTW The ACMUs essentially have no railfan window (the crew stands in the front vestibule, or hangs bags, and even if they don't it probably makes the Engineer uncomfortable for someone to be standing right there), but have huge side windows. When MNRR replaces them with the M-7s at least window-wise we're getting the same thing.
The restrictions on photography are few, as you say, though on our London Subtalkers' railfan trip last autumn we did get a complaint from one Central Line T/O when we took a picture of his train (at an above-ground station).
Next time look at the DLR, which is an interesting system in a great many ways, and maybe Croydon Tramlink, an under-appreciated part of London's public transport system, perhaps because it is situated in untouristy south London.
Seriously, I took pictures there myself in Nov 2001 when I went for six days. Nobody seemed to mind, but I did refrain from "flashing" the driver, even out of doors.
Docklands is net, if you are lucky, you can get a railfan SEAT!
wayne
The delivery on the primary R-142 order and option order I is winding down. Unless I'm mistaken, only 6900 series cars still need to be delivered,
Unaccounted for -
6921-25
6931-35
6946-50
6961-70
6981-90 (Option I)
Deliveries of the the primary R-142 order started on 12/20/99.
-Stef
Robert
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
-A friend of mine at being told the 1100 R142series arrived.
Everyone has an opinion, brah... we've beat the Redbird-Armadillo
debate senseless TOO MANY TIMES... jest best we all leave one another
to their onions and opinions, too.
I Redbird, therefore I am.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Peace
David
Bill "Newkirk"
?????
How so? the Manny bridge is dead yet.
Also, why does the service advisory for the Q say it's running over the N/R route? That is incorrect. On weekends the N does not run in the Montague Tunnel. It should say R or R/W, because when the Q runs in the tunnel so do the R and W, but not the N.
Also, both maps show the Throgs Neck Bridge but omit the adjacent Whitestone Bridge.
Must be a secret plan to put a lower deck on the TNB for subway service. It's about time the Bronx and Queens had a direct subway connection! :)
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
---Chapter 11
It's only the Q, due to a GO, that runs express north of Canal but via tunnel south of Canal. Otherwise, the bridge functions as the express shortcut to the tunnel.
I guess they make the maps for morons now, and I bet even then they don't understand.
Weekends are more at issue than late nights, and it's impossible to tell (without reading the service guide) if a light-face letter refers to a weekday-only service, a weekend-only service, or something else. Perhaps the map should depict weekday service on one side and weekend service on the other. The commuter rail network is irrelevant to most subway passengers, especially those subway passengers who need to consult a map.
It doesn't have to be difficult. Its a wonderful system that the TA uses on every other aspect of the map - colors.
Full Time Service - Black
Nights & Weekends - Green
Nights only - Blue
Weekends only - Red
Or something like that. Better than Bold, normal and asterisk.
The problem with that is you will never see the weekend side in a subway car map. Just like when they used to have individual route maps on the back, which was great, but they never showed the other side in subway cars or in-station maps.
Perhaps the map displays could be doubled, or some of the wall-mounted ads could be replaced with maps. They'd have to be marked clearly.
But even if the cars only have space for one version of the map, I don't see why the fold-up maps couldn't have two.
Thanks.
Avid
Any past trips I've sent away to Waters Place for, there was a phone number at the Transit Museum I could call to check the status of my request. Now with the Museum closed for renovations, there's no number to call- at least as far as I know.
Offhand, does anyone know if you can get away with 37 cents postage if you're enclosing a SASE? Or do I have to go to the post office to get the weight and rate?
I'd LOVE to go on the June 8th trip, as I miss the R1-9s sorely- and have another commitment on the date of Saturday trip.
Thanks to anyone for their insights on this matter.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
---Choo Choo
--Mark
What time do the trains leave from Chambers Street and Grand Central?
I called Bill Wall at that Waters Pl. phone number. I have the same senario as you and can be free June 8th.
Bill called back and left a message telling me that there is still time and to send payment with the flyer coupon and enclose a stamped self addressed envelope. If I were you, send out the request with payment TOMORROW. Just leave your phone number on the coupon in case they have to call you.
Bill "Newkirk"
Turns out I sent out a check and a SASE yesterday after reading responses to my original post. The concept of a flyer coupon is unknown to me. I found out the dates and details of the various MOD trips in the Upcoming Events section of this website. For what it's worth, I printed that page, cut out the reference of the MOD trips and highlighted the date I wanted. I also enclosed a note specifying number of tickets and date along with my phone number.
I sure hope that failure to enclose this flyer coupon will not jeapordize my chances of receiving a ticket.
I did a similar thing, but went one step further. I pasted the info from the Upcoming Events page into MS Word and then created MY OWN order form! I ALSO included a seperate note explaining that there was no mistake, I really did want 2 tickets for one day and 3 tickets for the other day. I received my tickets with no problem. I'm sure you will be fine. I hope to see you there.
Take Pride,
Chapter 11 Choo Choo
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
As a member of the NY Division ERA, I received a flyer announcing the trips. At the bottom was a coupon you cut with a scissors then fill out and mail payment for your tickets. You could have even made you own coupon by stating which trip you were interested in on which day and specify adult ticket(s). As long as you mailed it in and not waited, you should be get your ticket and who knows, maybe I'll see you.
Bill "Newkirk"
Then you should have received the flyer twice, as it was also mailed
the members of BERA. Of course those using the original flyer, there
are some errors on it, as to dates & equipment.
But with all tickets returns, the corrected flyer is mailed.
And those that printed it off the coming events section of this board,
the dates and equipment are correct.
8-) ~ Sparky
Howard NOT,
The Division 'C' excursions are not operated by the Transit Museum,
so let's not misidentify the MOD excursions with Museum Nostalgia
Trips. They are using Transit Museum cars in June, 2003.
Once again, for those that may wish to persist and speak with someone,
the telephone number is: 1-347-643-5310. There is not always someone
present to answer your call, but they will call you ASAP.
8-) ~ Sparky
It's going to be an interesting weekend, with the Bus Roadeo the day before. I chose Sunday for the MOD trip because Hangar B at Bennett Field, where the Roadeo will be held, is only open on Saturdays. Hangar B contains some fascinating wartime aircraft on display. So it'll be a nice dose of old planes, trains and buses (but no automobiles!)
Thanks to everyone for their informative responses to my original post. See youse guys at Chambers Street!
The trips will be overlapping with multiple GOs in effect that weekend(s).
-Stef
-Stef
I refer to the opening paragraph in the Newsday story which states that the 74th St station was voted the ugliest back in 2000.
1) There wouldn't be as much crowding around the stairway entrances from the 7 platform downstairs if people would just use the entrances evenly. People have an annoying habit of using the stairway closest to the train door from which they just exited, even if it is too crowded and another, less crowded stairway is 10-15 feet away. I used to make the 7 to E/F transfer very often and I was amazed at people's reluctance to walk a short distance to a relatively uncrowded staircase.
2) I don't see a reference to the renovation of the Roosevelt Avenue station platforms, stairways or walls. Other than the introduction of flourescent lighting in the 1960's and the installation of white on black pillar and ceiling signs, the station is pure 1930's IND in dire need of renovation.
IRT stations have all been lengthened, but that's about it for the unrehabbed ones. Most (underground) BMT stations received the refrigerator treatment a few decades ago.
Flushing IRT platform upstairs is no better, everyone crowds at the conductors position because a large number of customers exit at the next three stops (82, 90, and Junction). Even with the improvements, it is doubtful that riding habits will change, they will STILL mob themsleves at the 74th st staricases.
It is now an obstacle course, last December I noted chalk markings all over the station and mezzanine floor, indicating that the renovations will commence on the busiest complex in Queens.
On another note, the P/T entrance at Queens Plaza (by Northern Blvd/41st Ave) is now a moth behind schedule and is still closed.
Flushing IRT platform upstairs is no better, everyone crowds at the conductors position because a large number of customers exit at the next three stops (82, 90, and Junction). Even with the improvements, it is doubtful that riding habits will change, they will STILL mob themsleves at the 74th st staricases.
It is now an obstacle course, last December I noted chalk markings all over the station and mezzanine floor, indicating that the renovations will commence on the busiest complex in Queens.
On another note, the P/T entrance at Queens Plaza (by Northern Blvd/41st Ave) is now a month behind schedule and is still closed.
And that would be Slattery/Skanska. If anything, I am impressed with their rehab of the Times Square complex so far, let's just hope they don't mess up the Flushing IRT platform.
If anything, the entire complex in Queens is already way under construction or will soon be under it. Telling of my observations:
- The Flushing IRT platform already has several stairwells boarded up, not to mention spraypaintings at the west end of the platform, most likely indicating goings on.
- The Queens Blvd. IND platform is much more rumbling. Several staircases have been boarded up and if you walk around the mezzanine, much of the area has been changed. The width has pretty much reduced with new temporary working quarters installed at both sides of the mezzanine. Also a significant part of the flooring has been scraped and will be probably be layed with new flooring and the tiling we are all familiar with.
- Some interesting things I spotted included asphalt at the foot of the very top of some of the mezzanine stairwells and new telephones recessed into the some of the working quarters. Very intriguing...
Geez Roosevelt Av is already congested and now less space for a short time, well better its done now than later [or never ;-)]. Well yeah it is not a surprise to see the new tiling at Roosevelt as it was just PLAIN and dull and would brighten up the station platform.
You're a bit too late. Roosevelt/Jackson Heights has always been an express station. You're probably speaking of the Flushing IRT platform... even though it will still remain a local station, it should be noted that the interlocking around 69-Fisk will be dismantled and new interlockings will be installed north and south of 74/Broadway.
If anything, I am happy for the renovation.
They'll come in handy during GO's and blockages.
David pretty much explained the reason for moving the interlockings. It will only be used for service diversions or GO's... It would be crazy for regular service usage considering the backups in locals and the overwhelming crowding. It just isn't feasible.
The MTA is doing a bang-up job for this project. BTW, does anyone know if any part of the complex, whether it be in the IND or IRT part, will be demolished?
I'm thinking the crossunder accessible at the west end of the IRT platform will be demolished and rebuilt. That's probably the worst part of the complex.
---Choo Choo
---Choo Choo
The D line has among the worst scheduling in the entire transit system, 95% of all S/B train are "held" at either 145th, 59th (no excuses on either station) or at 42nd st (understandable there). And the holding can take up to 2 minutes, sometimes 3 minutes.
Someone at BPB is letting trains go too early or the C/R is making the stops too fast, causing it to run hot (ahead of schedule.)
Jimmy
This...is...KUH-NALLLL STreetttttt (voice trails off)...TRANSFERS AVAILABLE FOR THE J! M! Z! THE NUMBER... 6! ANDDDDDDD...THE SHUTTLE BUS! To the grand strreeettt stashunn (voice trails off)
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
They are the traditional railroad spikes that nail the tie plate to the cross tie. They are colored blue (I've never seen that color before) and are not rusty. There were only three of them. Did a trackworker leave them behind by accident? Crap, I hope I don't get someone fired again. Thinking back to this morning, it, uh, may not have been that station, and, uh, may have occured many weeks ago... In fact, I'm heavily medicated right now and I have no idea what I'm talking about...
....back to the doobies bmdoobiew again ehh :)
I felt reassured when I saw the spikes still sitting there the next morning...
It's nice to yap, but let's yap wisely.
I often notice along the trackage that an additional 2 tracks are tacked onto the ties (I see this more often in Elevated than underground, that's my observation). What are the purposes of these tracks?
I got another query as well.
I often see along the 3rd rail where it breaks up momentarily and within the break, a part of 3rd rail is to the side with wires connected to the original 3rd rail. What is the purpose of this?
I'm not going to be there, but the Broadway line platform at which station? Why the R and not the W or Q? The J hasn't stopped at Pacific since October 2001, when the R wasn't running.
Assuming you figure out where you're going, have fun!
And, yes, the Q is running through the tunnel on weekends for the next few months. I wouldn't have suggested it otherwise, since it wouldn't have taken you to Whitehall if it went over the bridge.
The R, Q, and W all stop at Whitehall on weekends, and the 1 stops even closer to the ferry terminal. I still don't understand why you're insisting on the R.
Most people will be away that Memorial Day weekend, I cannot attend this one. However I may be planning a late August fan trip on a Sunday when most people will be free, only this time more ground will be covered than just NYC.
Stay tuned.
There ain't nothing to eat in Tottenville, unless you brown bag it.
Bill "Newkirk"
This photo is described as depicting the Canal Street Bridge Line station during a fan trip in 1973.
Is this correct? The station in the photo has a curved ceiling and what looks like a wall platform and a single track, similar to the 14th Street and 23rd Street stations of the IND 6th Avenue line. The Canal Street Bridge Line station has a straight, flat ceiling and two side platforms separated by two tracks adjacent to one another. The station depicted in the photo does not look like Canal Street Bridge Line.
Is it?
oz12
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=494647
and
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=494933
I've never seen any old photos of Chambers St. even in the pre-Nassau St. subway days.
Bill "Newkirk"
New respondees include as of 4/17/03
CC Local
CPCTC
Kool D
Mike
New respondees as of 4/28/03
boriqua
Michael Calcagno
New respondees as of 5/9/03
Chapter 11 choo choo and From the Bronx to Brooklyn
So are there any more takers? Anyone else who wants to read good original transit ficition? This will eventually be put in a website, but will be at least a year or two from now, as I have to complete the other 3 chapters and compose maps, drawings and sketches for the website version. The text version would be ready much sooner.
Also I've included here, the summary of the project by chapter:
General Introduction
This section covers my fascination with trains, how it evolved and how it led to the ambitious transit project
Chapter 1: Introduction to the Transit Project
This chapter will describe the focus of the project itself. It points out the goal of providing more subway coverage for the city as well as providing service to the suburbs. There are descriptions of current problems the current subway system faces and possible solutions that are implemented in the alternate reality of the transit project.
Chapter 2: Expasnion of the Current Routes
This chapter focuses on the extension of the current routes in both the A and B Divisions of the current system, which are all affected in some way by the larger system that is presented here. The chapter also describes the use and need of additional route markers and lines which were discontinued that continue to play a role in transit operation. Also included are ROW's of selected rail lines that now feature subway routings.
Chapter 2 was the result of three original documents that I've produced for last year's railfan audience that has been merged together into one document.
Chapter 3: Trunk Lines
This chapter gets into the heart of the project, by listing all the trunk lines of this much larger alternate subway system. Included are 2nd Avenue line, the IND Second System and many other original lines, a few are based on or are variations of proposed lines that railfans on Subtalk have posted in the past in various threads. This is chapter is one of the longer chapters in the project and one of the original documents I have produced for last year's group of railfans. Every line and possible connection is included, covering all five boroughs, and surburban counties in New York, New Jersey and Connecticut.This chapter includes an Appendix, which is also of extended length covering details of information in regard to the trunk lines. Many interesting aspects of transit operation are found in the Chapter 3 Appendix, which is divided into five smaller appendices. A comprehensive listing of river tunnels, shuttle routes, track connections between the A and B Divsions as well as to commuter and freight trackeage and other intriguing things are found in the Appendix. Note that any remaining general transit information is included in Appendix A at the end of the project. (see below) Chapter 3 now includes a introduction in regard to the context of the document.
This appendix, which was another original document for last year's railfan audience will be mailed with Chapter 3.
Chapter 4: The Route Markers and Routing Information
This chapter lists all the route markers that are used in the transit project and markers not used. Following the table of route markers are routes themselves, with listings of terminals, trunk lines, operation times, rolling stock each route uses and the yards each route uses.
Chapter 5: Rolling Stock, Yards and Equipment--Part 1, 2 and 3
Chapter 5 also delves into the heart of the project by providing a comprehensive lists of rolling stock used in the transit project. This Chapter primarily consists of tables that lists all the cars used and that are in service. Each car class has been expanded to at least twice its size. This chapter is one of the longest in the project, and because I found that composing this all this information added up over time, the chapter is divided into three parts. The first part is completed, the other two I'm still working on while I'm completing Chapter 4. What you may find when reading this chapter is the overwhelming number of cars used, but I've got around the capacity issues somewhat by introducing a system of car transference from one yard to another--which will all be explained in this chapter. As I'm certain every railfan has a favorite car--real or fictional--you will be sure to find it in this chapter.
Subway yards are listed in this chapter also, and there are a lot of them.
Like Chapter 3, this chapter also features a brief introduction and an Appendix at the end. The Chapter 5 Appendix covers prewar cars listed for both the IRT and BMT and additional general information about rolling stock that wasn't covered in the main chapter and the chaining codes used for the additional trunk lines.
Chapter 6: Station Design and Architecture
This chapter covers some intriguing designs of underground station design. Some elevated and grade/cut/embankment stations are covered too. Also covered are a more detailed expansion of the IND color coded station tile system and more creative designs on the moaics motifs and wall signs on the IRT and BMT.
Chapter 7: A Fictional History of the New York City
(later Metro Area) Subway System
This chapter, aslo covers the heart of the project and supports one of the main points of the project: subway development in New York under different circumstances, different attitudes, a different spin on politics, finances and social concerns. Chapter 7 will be entirely in a fictional context using realistic facts and events for support and as a foundation to illustrate transit development in another reality.
Chapter 8: Commuter Rail and Light Rail--Further Development and Expansion of the LIRR, Metro North, NJ Transit and the new Light Rail System
Though the prime objective of this project is the subway, the project does not leave out commuter rail. As part of mass transit system, I felt it was integral to include further development of the three commuter rail systems in the Metro Area to supplement subway expansion to the suburbs in the form of more transfers and more inter-regional traveling options. The inclusion of commuter rail in the project also provides a single large mass transit entity consisting of subway and commuter rail designed to cover the entire New York City Metropolitan Area within a 75 mile radius. It is set up so that the subways serve inner zone areas (NYC, neighboring cities in Westcheter, and New Jersey and the immediate suburbs outside these regions) and commuter rail serves the inner and outer zones (outer zones being distant suburbs and more remote areas) The inclusion of the light rail system is simply the expansion of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail System, which is expanded entirely to reach many regions--first and foremost developed to the system that NJ Transit is working towards--see the NJ Transit site for all the planned extensions of the light rail system--and providing an additional link between NY and NJ via original routings.
Chapter 9: Expanded New York City Subway System--smaller versions
This chapter provides other additional scenarios of the subway expansion in the city. I'm not sure yet of how many scenarios I'm going to include in this chapter, but there will be two included, which I can tell you right now.
(1) The first scenario is simply an extension of the current system using only past proposals the MTA, the TA and the Board of Transportation has made. Notably included is the full development of the IND Second System--both 1929 and 1939 plans. This system is confined within the borders of the city and except of one route to Jersey City, offers no extensions to the suburbs.
(2) The second scenario is an expansion of the first, but a scaled down version of the main scenario that this project fouces on. It is simply a modest expansion of subway service into Nassau, Westchester and New Jersey, covering only the immdediate Metropolitan Area.
Appendix A: Miscellaneous Items regarding Transit Operations
This Appendix describes/lists information that wasn't covered in the Chapter 3 Appendix or in Chatpers 7 or 8.
Appendix B: List of Stations of the Extended NYC Transit subways
This is appendix lists all the stations that "exist" in the project. They are classified by trunk line. Current stations are also listed.
(1) Question and Answer section
This section focuses on questions you may have about stuff that you may not be clear on, or have in the back of your mind, that I've thought of ahead of time. This document is half completed, and since the questions covered thus far are only about the first five chapters, I may likely send the first half of this document after Chapter 5, to see if it answers any questions that you may have.
(2) Feedback--What Do You Think? Comments, Suggestions, etc.
This section is simply a feedback section where you can freely comment only any aspect of transit operations of this project. It lists various questions of what you think about the material you read. The interesting part of this section is that it includes questions that lists scenarios where you decide how you would best handle the situation or event.
I'm still working on this document as well, but like the Question and Answer document, I'm thinking of dividing it into two parts and mail the first part to you after Chapter 5.
Other documents included in the project are:
1. A list of active towers--includes current ones and ones in operation on the "new" trunk lines. This will also be included at the end of the project.
2. A table of route markers from 1967 when the Christie Street Connector opened. This table also lists ficitional routings that existed at that time, and also provided two additional locations of BMT and IND merger, other than Christie Street. This table will be sent during the second and third parts of Chapter 5 or afterwards.
3. A historical chronology of ficitional routes that dates back from the Dual Contracts era through the 1990's. This is considered a prelude to Chapter 7, and will be likely be sent after Chapter 5.
4. A chronology of the ficitional routes in the order as I've conceived them. This covers routings created over a six year period. This will be send along with the historical chronology previously mentioned.
Chapters 6 to 9 I haven't started yet, but I will be working on them through the summer. I hope to have the remainder of the text portion of this project completed by mid-October.
The above listed respondees have already received chapters 1 and 2, and I eagerly await their feedback, as I continue to work on the last part of Chapter 4. There is still time to request your copy, as I would like to share this with as many railfans as possible. Weekly posting of this thread will continue for the remainder of May and through mid-June.
Rembember you can email me privately by clicking on my handle, with your request or to ask questions.
For those who responded, thank you for your interest and taking the time out to be a part of this, I appreciate it very much.
Dwayne Crosland/Xtrainexp.
Online FORUM will get you the answers.
Just ask the PROS here, son..
The complete story is here (I hope this URL works!):
http://64.226.170.141/cgi-bin/Interchange.pl?read=24587
Frank Hicks
http://www.wnbc.com/traffic/2203910/detail.html?treets=ny&tml=ny_break&ts=T&tmi=ny_break_22939_03250105142003
That's silly. Maybe folks who want improved service might think that raising more money to pay for it would make sense. I know I'm tired of rotten service (not all of it is rotten, but I can name some examples) and I'm willing to pay to improve it.
Perhaps those who remember what the results were the last time politicians and advocates managed to "save the fare" because hikes weren't necessary. They still aren't necessary if the TA stops doing maintenance and buying spare parts! We won't see the difference for five to ten years!
The City and State have already repeated many of the mistakes of the 1960s and 1970s. More and more debt. Assuming the tax revenues from a stock market boom would go on forever. Assuming excess pension valuations would go on forever, and thus putting less into the pension funds and increasing benefits at the same time.
Now all we need to do is "save the fare," slash the NYC school budget, and cancel the Second Avenue Subway.
The strappies plays on the publics right now thinking who often do not look at the concequences for making a change
they are sceaming at the MTA for doing just that preparing multiple budgets to see what will happend if money is used now vs paying down dept, saving interest payments and keeping the fare lower
the public will never scream PEASE RAISE MY FARE but that is when the sensible profeesionals need to make a tough decision
$2 is the base fare. The MTA fare hike plan spared the working man and in essence taxed the tourist and the lazy who don't buy thier fares in advance.
Try buying and airplane ticket last minute. It cost 10 times as much
Its more than that.
Under Cuomo, taxes were cut and services were added in the 1980s boom, and taxes were raised and services were reduced in the early 1990s bust.
Under Pataki, taxes were cut and services were added in the late 1990s boom, and now taxes are being increased and services cut in the early 2000s bust.
BUT under Cuomo the there was not big pension plan giveaway to public employees who are cashing in and moving out. And, state and local governments themselves paid enough into the pension plans to keep them well funded. Today, so much money has been diverted out of the pension plans that ALL FUTURE INCREASES IN TAXES ARE GOING TO THE PENSION FUNDS.
The Comptroller, McCalll and Hevesi, get some of the blame for this. But Pataki (and Giuliani) also increased debts in the boom, especially MTA debt. Cuomo did not -- he used current state revenues to pay for rebuilding the MTA. FUTURE CAPITAL AND OPERATING FUNDS WILL HAVE OT BE DIVERETED TO PAY OFF THESE DEBTS!
Everyone knows this.
So yes, we can avoid raising the fare, by repeating the policies of the 1960s and 1970s. Even if the fare is raised, however, the transit system has peaked, not due to decisions that are being made now, or will be made in the future, but due to decisions made from 1997 to 2002. "Saving the fare" will only make things worse.
Anytime someone like tom golisano or bloomberg bring up issue like this they are ignored . Hevesi to be fair brought up issue like this while he was city comtroler. Not only was it ignored he lost the election
Local politicians are standup comics coming uo with liners to distract the public from the issues
Other states and cities would kill for the natural resources ny has. The universities who pumpout new incentions, Wall street who fills the cities coffers.
The local polticians look for ways to fill thie pockets. suing to keep the school districts is one of them
FYI if you read the judges rulling and the actuall complaint. The straphangers campaigns complait was not that the fare increase was not justified but rather that they neeed more public hearings because the information released to the public was not in language the average joe could understand
The irony of the situation, if yu read the legal breif, the language it was written in was in no way somthing the average joe could understand easily.
Basically they want more public hearingd and opurtunities to get publicity and to hold ralleys that waist taxpayers dollars
The times had a piece on Senator Eric T. Schneiderman's who was the lawyer for strpaies. It;s his hobby to file suit against the MTA. Yes he is just looking to file suit against the mta, no matter the reason. It's personel not for the people
A perfect example is with the cities current round of layoffs. The city was looking for $600 million in concesions. The concessions would have amounted to increasing the work week from 35 hours to 40 hours. Something the state of NY has done years ago. In addtion reducing the ovely generous 5 weeks of paid vacation the first year to 3 and expanding to 4 after a few years.
This would have saved a few thousand jobs but the union leadership balked rather having a few thousand hard working employees pink slipped becasue those employees do not vote in the next union election
The head of the teachers union is pullinghte same crap. Even thoght thier is a huge shortage in cerified teachers, the union is fighting a plan to not allow subatical which teaachers are paid 75% of thier salary for a few years to help save enough money to not lay off any teachers aids..
Thw union instead of being reasonable filed a lawsuit claiming the city is racist in firing many teachers aids becasue many of the aids are black and latino. If the union would temportaly suspend subaticals, the money would be available to not lay off these workers
The unions are the only ones not feeling the pain.
I feel your pain as a database consultant. I just got back from a two month consulting gig in VA.
What technologies do you work with?
Thank you for your understand. Its not easy when you can't sleep and eat well daily when you're worrying your futures that may be in danger of losing the important thing of your life - your living and your family and your career. Even I not married and have no children. I also feel the pain of others who have families to support and career that they love for many year. And you felt the same way too. I blamed pataki for everything that is going on at this. Frankly I don't see him handling his job well as my governor.
What technologies do you work with?
I' m in charge in eliminating database errors.
He failed to attract new industry to the state during the last boom. Part of the reason is the hight tax strucuture even in upstate NY and part of the problem was the fact that he tried to steer any new compaanies to areas who supported him in the election
The lack of a brownfeild law makes it near imposiible to attact industry to former indstrial sites
Under current law, if any polution is found on site, the CURRENT owner is reponciple. Most states including NJ limit the liability of new property owners to polution they casues giving the company a idea of how much clean up cost will cost and no surprises
Frankly I see that the union or city don't give Flying F*** to our children's education. They are using this lawsuit to fulfill their needs and playing revenge games against each others with our children's future. And Frankly they don't have respect for god either. They are doing this because they think they are perfect than different races. Yeah Yeah, same sh*t that is being heard and sang million of time in church coming out their mouths...act nice in front of God. And backstab others behind his back. Ohhh, I singing the lord of glory song to god on easter sunday and act nasty outside of church on mother's day. C'mon!!! jack-ass jerks stop this so called drama of going to church to say nice to God and commit sin behind his back. God brought our children to this world to love, and care and provide for them, Not to just take away their chances. How times does this statements have to be repeated to their stupid dumb heads. This should be all about children's future. It should not be all about red skin, orange skin or green skin and who is certified as teachers.
That is normal city politics.
That is what is so refreshing about Bloomberg. He is not interested in the revenge game.
The union is angry that the chancelor is not directly soliciting input from the union brass on the school reorganization, but rather is interesting in what the front line teachers find inportant.
Randi Weingarten was quoted that she was the teachers union and if the chancelor or and other Education department staff want to know what teachers think they shoud talk to her. It is this run around that is why the schools are so bad
In the past the teachers union micromanged every decision. The unions brass who have not worked in the classroom for many years is often politically motivated and not what front line teachers think
The Local politicains and teachers union are now against the re-organization becasue it is clear that the new structure takes the politics out of much of the school operations noteably the budgets which is now put in the hands of the principals and not the buecrats. The new structure has a clear chain of caommand and accountability. Such a system reduces fraud and political patronage mills.
NYPOST SUPERINTENDENTS GET FAILING GRADE
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/75830.htm
The state senators are suing to protect a failing system. As system that has faild a good portion of our children for 30 years
Yeah, I forgot about it, you bloomberg and pataki have been on each others throats. I was wonder, if there will be a time where they will throw fireball at each other. Bloomberg vs Pataki. Woo hoo hoo hoo hoo. The pandora box will blow up on their face.
The large majority of so called "yuppies" make far less.
A stock trader could make intot he millions but earns each and every penny making accurate decisions making his company ten times more. If he does not make those decisions, if he does not make good decesions, he does not get paid at all
Many sales, brokers, mutual funs salesmen get paid mostly on commisiion. hey give you a year or two to put together a client roster and pay you a nominal base salary. By year three or 4 you are on 100% commission
Lawyers at top firms can sometimes start at $125k. But this is only after going to a top 10 4 year college and excelling, And another 2 years a at a top ten law school paying over $100k for the schooling and enduring hundreds of hours of studing to pass the bar exam.
They also put in 60-80 hour week the first few years. If you break down thier hourly take into account no paid ovet time and they make about $30-36 hr
Take those workers out of the mix and the average advertising, marketing person person makes between $25-$40k. No joke. Go onto hot jobs and type in advertising. Sales professionals and stock brokers must work as assitants for numerous years before getting a shot to make the big money. you only make the big money if you earned it
The average trade union worker, many who are highly skilled in thier craft do very well.
Plumber $40 hr * 40 hrs a week = $86,000
This over genereous salaries even compared to NJ is why it cost so much to live, work and play. I harms those in lower skills jobs the most. Those whose children could bennifit from better schools but the money went to pay the janitor or the plumber and not the TEACHER
No one is saying they should be paid poorly just the market rate set by supply and demand.
Thier will be just as many qaulified candidates for plumber and elecrician at $20 hr as thier are at $40 hr. The cost to society is less expensive housing and more jobs
Do you know that the electricians union artificially caped the number of union electricians in the late 1990's holding up many construction projects which now results in lower tax revenue due to jobs not comming to NYC. The remaining projects had to pay more for the same work. Plus those projects that moved ahead with some noo-union workers faced sabatage.
The problem is that the union does not want to use market force to set price but rather artificially drive upop salaries
Hense the BIF rat the trade unions put outside non union construction sites
The problem is overbloated salaries hurt as all.
That may have been true a few years ago, but right now newly-graduated lawyers are struggling to find jobs at less than half that salary. My younger daughter will graduate this Sunday from Georgetown Law, considered one of the top law schools in the country. After seven years of schooling (four undergrad, three years law school) she is deeply in debt (Georgetown costs about $45K/yr. and her undergrad school wasn't cheap either), I am broke, and she does not yet have a job. Hopefully she will have one by the time she takes the Virginia bar exam in July.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For many years now law has been a tough field in which to make a living. All these grotesque "Have you been injured?" ads should be a clue. During boom times, such as the late 1990's, a relatively small percentage of law school graduates - mainly from the top schools - do very well, but they're very much the exception even at those times.
The real problem with law is that the field is totally glutted, indeed has been that way for over two decades. Many college graduates, especially those with non-marketable liberal arts degrees, wind up in law school basically because they've got few other options. Law school is particularly suited to liberal arts graduates not because of what it has, but because of what it does not have - no math, no science, no computers.
many of these underemployed Lawyers beccome our political leadership and activist (ake gene from straphangers) in places like the city concil. They look to find any issue to argue, filing lawsuits not because they will help anyone, but rather to make money.
They treat the city concil and state senate like a game of surviver. Making alliances to help them further thier political carear. The two terms law makes things worse becasue they are looking from day one for thier next job thus feal they need to file lawsuit after lawsut to get thier name known.
The NY Bar preposed rasing the standard and toughing the exam. Lets say thier were a few lawsuits arguing a multitude of issue one being that it would create a shortage of lawyers.
I doubt that
" Many college graduates, especially those with non-marketable liberal arts degrees, wind up in law school basically because they've got few other options. Law school is particularly suited to liberal arts graduates not because of what it has, but because of what it does not have - no math, no science, no computers."
These graduates with such non-marketable degrees as a BS in ancient cuban art end up filling up such fine law institutions as Queens law. Queens law is known for producing ultra left wing libral activist who feed the political activist groups with a new generation of law suit writers
A little wisdom from one of my lawyer freinds. The more lawsuits you file, the more lawyers on both sides needed, the more judges needed, more billable hours. Everyone wins no matter the outcome
"All these grotesque "Have you been injured?" ads should be a clue"
Lets hope Bloomberg is successful in stiffing the tort laws on no economic pain and sufferinf which holds the city and mta liable for nearly eveything that happens in the city whether they control it or not. The trail lawyers maje a killing becasue the city often settles becasue it cost a fortune to trie and it is a crap shoot to win or loos.
Just attending the best schools, even Harvard and Yale, is not now and never was enough to ensure a good job at a prestigious law firm. Also needed is being in the top 10% of the graduating class, law review experience, and summer internship at one of the silk stocking firms. Those in the top 10% graduating from a 2nd tier law school get better job offers than those in the 2nd quarter of a top school.
Tom
By definition these are not yuppies.
Tom
Sympathy or no, Taylor Law or no, if they strike it costs a fortune and it hurts everyone. They have to be kept happy. That's life. They have the clout and they're willing to use it.
Not just in the public sector but in the private sector
The Domino sugar strike a few years ago cost hundreds of fairly good paying jobs. The union wanted more money, they shut down the plant, dominno moved the largest most labor intensive part of the production elsewhere.
Technology changes the whole equation. Does anyone on this board believe that the MTA will keep two man crews on the L once CBTC is fully implimented.
The more the TWU holds the city hostage and keeps driving in some cases overly generous salaries even higher. The better the ROI of investing in new technologies
Eventually the MTA will hire a technology savy Cheif technology office from the private sector who will revamp thier operatios from top to bottom reducing the headcount by 25% without missing a beat.
Next times the TWU threatens to strike. Watch the L run ZPTO and demonstrate to the public that we do not have to be scared by terroristic tactics anymore
If the TWU would have went on stike during the busy christmas shopping season, half the retail jobs in this city would have been lost with stores closing due to lost business. Stores make 40% of their sales from the day after thanksgiven to christmas eve
$40k ($50k with bennifits) tooken booth clerks is just outragious. What is even crazier is that ever S/A must be gaurenteed 35 hours. The workforce just as toll booth clerks should be made up of at leat 30% hourly part time workers to allow greater operational flexablilty
But look at the outcry over eliminating token booths. And it's not even because people want tokens; they claim it's a security issue. I have no doubt that trains can be fully automated but I'm not sure the public is prepared to accept that just yet. I think most people want at least one MTA employee on the train. I don't necessarily agree with that, but it seems to be the general sentiment. Personally, I think security is a job for police officers and not token booth attendants and conductors and train operators-- but most people disagree.
I agree with you completly. The people who diagree were fed misleading information. Most people I know could care less wheteher their is a tooken booth or not. I the TWU and straphangers camapign who are just looking for headlines and easy way to say we are doing something for you.
CCTV monitored by sewcurity professionals, roving security officer and police officer who could get real time pictures and video feeds to handheld will be far more effective in detering ad catching crime. As it is 2/3 of all station complexes are devoid of any security survailance
The MTA did not do a good job arguing thier point. Plus they need to consistantly keep MVM's filled plus do a better job of premoting third party retailers, They could even expand the third party network to allow newstands to program thier own cards ellininating the huge up front fees for third party resellers. Currently most resellers don't stock a wide selectio of card options.
The MTA is hiring two peoplw to premote mvm and third party retailers.
The L will have someone aboard at all times as far as I know. i was just pointing out if the TWU ever stroke the MTA has the option of going ZPTO. Once that happans and people see it is no big deal, they will accept it. As it is riders on 75' cars are isolated from the crew.
I rode the paris medior, it was a nice experience
Most operational jobs that are ussually held by middle class workers are located outside the city. Walls street has moved most of its operational postitions out of the city. Next time you mail in your credit card statement check, you'll see the adress is not a ny adress
This also includes such entry level positons as customer service, accounting, billing etc.
Conde Naste publications just moved all its accounting, finace and subscription services staff to Dallas leaving only the creative and editorial staffs of the magazine here in the city
The funny part is all the S/A who cry poverty at $40k are making more them many of the college grads who come to NY hungry for a chance to break into the advertising or media business. The average starting salary at an advetising agency id $25k plus 10-12 hour days.
If you have food on your table and a roof over your head you are NOT POOR or impoverished.
Some big name comapies who once had huge nyc workforces and mived a significant number of workers out of state, merril lynch, chase, Lever, AT&T, Proctor and Gamble, IBM, Merk, Uniliver, Met Life, NY Life.
The list goes on and on. The worst part is that we are not attracring new industries such as biomedical, technology's etc. NY is heading down the path to ruin. The working class takes it the most.
So who is left at the Conde Nast building at Times Square, next door to the ESPN Zone?
All the backend operations were moved out of state. The space these operations occupied is up for sublease and is currently empty
What I foresee as the next step is the movement of the "sales, marketing and front end" jobs out of New York, following the already departed back office jobs. Although most New Yorkers are too clueless/stupid/deluded/whatever to realize it, the labor pool elsewhere in the country, especially in the Sunbelt, is becoming more sophisticated, educated and skilled, even as New York's deteriorates. Just look at the cesspools that New York public schools have become.
Meanwhile, the "New York premium," in other words the extra costs that businesses must bear in order to operate in the city, has become harder and harder to justify to shareholders and others. Sure, New York has art museums, fancy restaurants and Broadway plays. Reality check: most businesses do not care about these amenities. They'd rather be where costs are lower. Let's face facts, the competition for businesses among cities and states is a zero-sum race to the bottom. As long as there's a decent talent pool and infrastructure, conditions which most Sunbelt locales now can meet, businesses will go wherever costs are lowest. And that's not New York.
Truthfully, I fear that in the not-too-distant future, New York will be a collection of life's losers - the impoverished, the homeless, the disabled, the retarded, the senile, and so on - and the Medicaid vultures who get rich off of them. Most of the productive people will have decamped for the Subelt and elsewhere.
The large reason for this is that the Boeard of ed has become a poltical mill for the democratic party. The district offices the mayor wants to consolidate into streamlines back end support centers for the schools and use the savngs to put into better guildence counsoling and parent coordiantors are the home of political cronnies who noone knows what many actuall do
"Truthfully, I fear that in the not-too-distant future, New York will be a collection of life's losers - the impoverished, the homeless, the disabled, the retarded, the senile, and so on - and the Medicaid vultures who get rich off of them. Most of the productive people will have decamped for the Subelt and elsewhere"
This has already happened. If it was not for the energy of many highly motivated recent immigrants, the outer boroughs would be 50% welfare cases who the entrenched social service institutions have an interest in keeping them impovereshed, telling them that "the man" is the reason why they are unhappy. Thier is a huge brain drain in the city. Most of the highe end jobs are held by out of towners .
My freind works for a major social service agency in queens helping diabled children to adjust to society. they recently pulled a child from him for which he was seeing significant progress. It was a business move becasue he is a part time worker(social services folks often work multiple jobs). A full time employee child killed himself so they needed to find her a new child for business reasons
Another friend is a medicaid coordiantor who advises and arranges medicaid reciepients in home to help coordinate services, Part of his job is to report problems with particular providers. The problem is the agency he works for also is a provider. He is in a tough spot when his agency does a poor job. Can he realy advise the parent to use someone else? of course not
"Meanwhile, the "New York premium," in other words the extra costs that businesses must bear in order to operate in the city, has become harder and harder to justify to shareholders and others. Sure, New York has art museums, fancy restaurants and Broadway plays. Reality check: most businesses do not care about these amenities."
The businees only care about the amenities when they need to attract the best and the brightest to compeat in a competitive marketplace, the national enquirer just moved back from florida becaue it could not attract enough good talented eriters and editors to cover entertainment issues.
it is sad when I hear union leaders in the city conplaining about salary issues. Most unions especially at the MTA already get paid way over the going rate for similar services in the city
The average tooken booth clerk made $10k more then an entry level teacher up until this year and they want more
I hear the building workers union complaining that it takes $40k to raise a family on one salary in nyc. OK it will cost more if we pay a doorman $40k. Most doorman make about an addtional $5-10k a year in tips tax free
The funniest quote of the week had to be from a bronx city concil member who claimed the TLC taxi exam descrimonates agains hispanics becase it is only given in english.
The last I looked 3/4 of all taxi drivers were not us born and here . How do these guyes get thier Hack licence and hispanic drivers do not. Their leaders do not make up excuses why they can not do somethibng. They put the time in and get it done
Another exampl eis the SAT is discriminatory against blacks and hispanics. Yet asians come here and do fine
This city politicians resort to blaming others and making excuses why thier group can't do something holding thier people down
How come you don't get upset at the execs who are making $100G+ a year. They're being paid by taxpayers too.
The TA has a ridiculous number of managers. Lets look at RTO, you have the Cheif Tansportation Officer, and several Assistant Cheif Trans. Officers below him. Then you've got a rather large number of superintendents.
How come nobody wants to pick on them, but rather the poor fools out there making the trains run and getting you into the system?
He is not. He talks a good game, but when it comes time to walk the walk, he does not go. He probably realizes that the Sunbelt paradises that he talks about so fondly are all low wage places with a lower standard of living than he has attained in NYC.
Tom
I already do. Living in Suffolk County, cars are a basic necessity. So I get to pay exhorbitant LIRR fares and the costs of vehicle ownership and maintenance. As you note, cars aren't cheap.
I would like to improve ny and not move. The problem is the local democratic political machine and union leadership(not the memembers) are greedy and don't want any change that will disrupt thier party.
take the school reorganization as a perfect example. It is not the kids the poiticains are worried about it is the loss of thier political power at he school districts where they put thier buddies in no work jobs. Each district had thier own tittles for each job and the central office had no clue who to call to get something done or what people did at the district office
Plus the reachers union head is more interestes in power the the kids. She is ticked that she is left out of meetings. In the past she co-led the B of Ed. we see how that went. She is mad that the chancelor is talking directly to actuall teachers. What a concept, the head of the school system talks with the actual instructors
Another example is the city unions refusual to give back some vacation time and extend the work week. The leadership worried about thier re-election prefered a few thousand of their memembers getting pink slips
The economics of NYC is out of hand. The union leadership and croket politicains are a large reason for this.
I wish I could conviently use mass transit to handle all my needs. It is just not practical where I live
Yes the quoted numbers if you take into account all the suspended licence, is a bit low. But no by that much
the average houshold in my neighborhood has 2-3 cars.
I've heard that in Brooklyn and Queens, and probably in the other boroughs too, counterfeit registration certificates can be purchased on the street for around $1,000.
I live in an apartment building with about 70 units. Four or five cars can park in front of the building. If other buildings have similar ratios, then all it takes is 1 in 14 families to park a car on the street to fill up all the curbs.
And that's only if nobody from out of town ever parks on the street, which is most certainly not the case.
Ah, but where are the new transit systems being developed or expanded? Dallas, Houston, Salt Lake City, Denver, Phoenix ... Sunbelt cities, in other words.
Not true. I have not left New York for the simple reason that my job is here. I'll have been at the job for ten years this coming September, earn a decent salary, and have a respectable degree of responsibility.
As far as the Sunbelt is concerned, while salaries are usually lower than New York levels, so are most prices, so it basically evens out.
Great reasons to stay. But that proves the point that, in spite of all your praise of the Sunbelt, (you believe) you can not get as good a job as you have in New York. If you thought otherwise, you would be voting with your feet.
Tom
Take a ride out to vergas. For $230k you get a palace. If you are a skilled worker you end up WAY AHEAD. If you are a low skilled worker you end up the same
You see all those higher union salaries just raise the cost of everything, drive up taxes, chase business and agt the end of the day you are worst off then if the salaries were more resonable
I'm probably an atypical case. My particular field of expertise is rather esoteric, with only a couple of other companies dealing with the same area (one's in Washington, the other in suburban Chicago). Moving to the Sunbelt almost certainly would require a significant career change, not just a new job. I'm not at the point where I'm willing to go through that sort of thing if I don't have to. In any event, leaving a job after ten years, and starting anew elsewhere, is tough no matter what feeling is involves.
Speaking of the Sunbelt, it has rained in Atlanta everyday for the past three weeks. I forgot what the sun looked like.
I'll have to take back what I said, that New Yorkers are genetically less intelligent than people elsewhere. At least 10,000 of them each year are smart.
Let's face it, a burb is a burb. The only difference is the job and the cost of living. If you live on Long Island, and don't live near the water, no wonder you don't see the point. Remember, when Long Island was developed the suburbs were a new idea. They are old hat now.
However, in Brooklyn (and to an even greater extent in Manhattan) you can live a different life than you can in a generic burb. If you find that life attractive, you have no choice but to pay.
They aren't making any places like it in the Sunbelt. Seattle and Portland are probably the closest thing to a real urban lifestyle that has been created lately, and those states are in a funk that makes New York look prosperous.
Where else? Atlanta? I had a friend who talked the same game as Peter. Atlanta was his holy grail. Until he went there and found out (shocker) that it has terrible traffic and the central city is poor and has crime! Another New York hater thought he wanted to go to San Diego, but found that didn't work either, and ended up in Connecticut.
As mentioned previously, my parents were driven out of New York in the 1970s by unemployment, and I finished high school in Tulsa Oklahoma. But I came back. Three words: pizza, bagels, subway.
Hey, some people choose to do weird things.
Now that's a scary thought!
Let's not forget that many more New Yorkers might want to move to the Sunbelt but can't. Some people are like me, reluctant to leave decent jobs and start over elsewhere, while others have family ties keeping them in New York. And to keep things on-topic, New York's extensive transit system may be a reason why some people won't move. More accurately, New Yorkers who do not have cars or licenses, not needing them because of the availability of transit, might be reluctant to move to the Sunbelt notwithstanding the economy, because they'd have to buy cars and get licensed.
Actually, I was rather curious. My cousin lives in the Sunbelt, in Atlanta, and she's quite happy with her life. She makes good money, drives a decent car, and lives in a house (btw, she's in her mid-20s). Sometimes she does ask me if I'd go down there after I finish school, but I usually decline. I'd prefer to stay with my family in New York, and I'm not fond of the climate there either. I love snow and cold winters. The question to ask is what's better, money or your personal lifestyle and happiness. I'm rather happy in New York, and I don't plan on leaving right *now*.
A mansion, new construction, in ground pool, whirlpool, cental air, 4 bedroom 3 bath.
$225K
Car Insurance ful coverage on a BMW 540(his car) $675
Car Insurarance the same car in Brooklyn $5500
That price for a "mansion" sounds suspiciously low. House prices in Las Vegas and other dynamic Sunbelt cities are no longer quite the bargain that they used to be thanks to extremely strong demand. There's enough new construction, however, to keep prices from going through the stratosphere. On the other hand, I consider anyone who'd consider buying a house or apartment in New York to be either (1) completely deluded, or (2) a candidate for admission to Bellevue. The risk of major deflation is just too high, a consequence of the unemployment crisis.
As far as the car insurance issue is concerned, the huge price difference may be due to the fact that while Americans in general have become lawsuit-happy, New Yorkers are even worse. It's been claimed that a car crash in New York - the Bronx and Brooklyn in particular - is more than twice as likely to result in a lawsuit than a crash elsewhere. This is especially weird given the fact that crashes in the city are less likely to cause injury, given slow urban traffic speeds.
Blame it on all the underemployed lawyers in the city. Watch any late ight or afternoon TV and you will see dozens of ads for lawyers encouraging people to sue.
Sheldon silvers law firm is in the top 3 in tort claims against the city. Any wonder why he is using his powers to block tort reform that is out of control.
Also thier is a good deal of organized fraud which stages accidents in order to fie bogus suites with insurace conpanies.
The state sttorney generals office recently tripled it's enforcement unit tracking staged accidents and medical mills who fake mediacal records
As for the price of a large house $225k is right on target. 6 years ago a similar house would go for about $100k. My parents almost bought a home in Las Vegas area. 6 years ago a modest home went fot $50k. As coincidentce has it, I just spoke to my freind yesterday aboutr the subject. It goes to show you how overpriced new york real estate, especially in the five boroughs is.
http://www.homebuilder.com/lasvegas/communityresults.asp?Action=execute&SearchFor=Homes&Mode=Standard&Pos=1&smap=&NumItems=25&st=NV&AdultSrch=&isrc=&PriceLow=120000&PriceHigh=&Bedrooms=&Bathrooms=&SqFt=&image1.x=15&image1.y=10&poe=homestore
My co-worjer bought a one floor condo in a 3 family develepement for $325k. The developer happened to be and old high school freind. It cost about $150k to put up the entire sructure(3 apartments) using mexican illegal immigrants while they charge prices based on union labor
On top of the cost the developer pressures buyers to use his in-house finacing which is more eexpensive in most cases then getting a loan on your own
It's something you should consider. I've never been to Atlanta itself, except once to change planes years ago, but by all accounts it's a terrific city, with a dynamic, recession-proof, full-employment economy. I've heard that while the city itself has some rundown sections, like any city, the suburbs are among the best in the country. And of course MARTA's a pretty decent system, though of course it's not nearly as comprehesive as what you're used to.
As for the money vs. happiness/lifestyle question, consider that it's very difficult to maintain a decent lifestyle, or to be happy for that matter, if you don't have any money. New York may offer more varied lifestyle choices than most other places, but the city's catastrophic unemployment rate is the 400-pound gorilla that can't be ignored no matter how much one tries.
The city is in financial ruin, the politicians have made it much easier for nationwide moving companies to lure new customers wanting to relocate out of NYC, PERMANTELY.
The reason is the outragiuous union wages and work rules. This drives of the cost of state and city contruction projects and harms the govenments efforts to increase inefeciency
It is crazy to think that with the large shortage of teachers especially in math and science, teachers are stil allowed to take eabaticals at 75% pay. teachers need a break every so many years to avoid burnout. But concidering the current fiancial and shortage of Qualfiesd candidates(mostly becasue the low pay) Teachers should not be allowed to take sabatical right now
In addtion the over generous social progrmas which in many cases are providing services to people who come to the city to take advantage of the bennifits. Socaal service bennifts shoud be for true residents who lived here for at leaste 5 years
Not to mention all the silly requirements such as the rewuirements that one coantractor can not do more then one type of constructuion on a particular job which reduces effeicies and increases the chance of ffraud
Tort laws written by the trai lawyers association that akes the city liable for items it has no control over. For instance if you own a home, don't shovel the snow, the city is secondary liable if someone sues.
The cyclical sprial of welfare is one reason we are paying big time. Why should drugs addicts be entitled to welfare? Everone does deserve a chance at a helping hand now and then, but make it random drug testing for welfare applicants, fail the pissing test, you lose you benefits for a 5 year period, plain and simple.
No city cars should be allowed to be taken home, only Agency heads (Commissioners, and Managers should be afforded that right.)
Get rid of middle management at the multiple layred Dept. of Education. Kids come first over bureaucrats and their friends and family holding con jobs, outside people need it badly.
Which leads to increased junkie crime, muggings, burglaries, etc. and to increased spending on correctional facilities and police.
>>> No city cars should be allowed to be taken home, only Agency heads (Commissioners, and Managers should be afforded that right.) <<<
This means that those who have need of city cars in their work such as building inspectors, etc. would have to start and finish the work day at a central location, to check out and check in cars, and have a cup of coffee with their co-workers and therefore lose about five hours of productivity per person each week, plus increase the cost of maintaining the space and security for all the city cars stored in one location.
Tom
As it is the only people who can park anywhere including on meters south of cannal are city vehicles weekdays befor 7pm, even at meeters. Read the sings in the walstreet area. A waist of money in my mind and one of ther first thing bloomberg did was slash the cities motor pool and permits. Anyone tell me why every city concil idot needs a city car and permit. IT would be far cheaper to take a cab everywhere they giving out cars
Also many employees such as building inspectors DOI auditors and confidential investigators often have to do go to location early in the morning or late at night. The best place to arrest as supect is when he leaves for work(not to city workers who are stealing nad thik they ae geting away with it) I'd often get to a supects resident at 7 am waiting for him to leave for work
Each employee their milage on each trip each day. Depeding on the department the milage is strictly moitored. You also must enter the cars milage each time you use your gase card
One interesting note is that you get taxed on $4 a day for the use of the car as a frindge bennift.
If they had thier way they would keep increasing taxes. Bloomberg is in a situation where he HAS TO BALLANCE THE BUDGET BY LAW. He has not choice. He can not cut services to a level that will send the city into disarry
One positive cut that Bloomberg is instituting this summer is cutting garbage pickups to once a week in low density areas of one and two family homes. If residents recycle, there is not enough trash to warrent twice a week pickups. The reason it remains is that the city concil+union combo are against any change that results in the reducution of union payroles
Pataki's biggest srewup is his rush to close freshkills landfill before the city could impliment alternative plans. The result is the city is getting held over the fire in garbage removal rates. The original guiliani plan for the closings of fresh kills was to tie it to the building of the NJ/SI/Brooklyn rail tunnel. The cost now spent trucking the garbage out of state would have coverrd the cost of building the tunnel
Now, the RR hike I think was done rather poorly, but since this isn't about the RRs at all, I won't mention it further.
And I really don't give two flying ones if people agree with me or not.
It most certainly is about the railroads. LIRR and MNR were both named respondents, and were both included in the order to restore the old fares.
Mark
Well a hike had to come sooner or later I admit.
And I really don't give two flying ones if people agree with me or not.
I'm not agreeing OR disagreeing with you, I didn't know if you were serious or not. I'm basically saying that the MTA took the WRONG steps to justify a fare hike IMO, y'all want to respond that's fine.
---Chapter 11 MTA
all those interested email me offline
Which is the lowest level of state court in New York State.
If he had any ability to see into the future he never would have gone to New Jersey at all. :-)
Tom
If anything, I read the Post today and I spot several articles badmouth the Times for the recent story on a journalist who was discovered to be plagerizing information for stories.
The chain of courtage though was original.
http://www.courts.state.ny.us/ctstructure.htm
All straphangers camapign wants is more public hearings to get more sound bytes
David
In fairness, nothing that happens in the budget is democratic either. The MTA Board is not a democracy. Neither is the state legislature.
And they are right, the MTA didn't present a clear picture, and neither did the Governor prior to the election. Part of this is Hevesi and Thompson using the MTA as a pawn, to get back at Pataki for using the MTA as a pawn.
This is not good for the transit system.
I agree, but it hardly justifies a judicial act to reverse a fare hike. By the weak, lame rules in existance the MTA did nothing wrong
Part of this is Hevesi and Thompson using the MTA as a pawn, to get back at Pataki for using
the MTA as a pawn.
No, this is entirelyHevesi's and Thompson's fault, for convincing the public that there's no need for a 50 cent fair increase with a biased audit as full of holes and mirrors as the budget the MTA submitted at it's public hearings.
It should draw down its cash until none is left, as the Comptrollers suggested, and stop awarding capital contracts. Then, when it the MTA is at risk of not making payroll, it should cut service and maintenance. When people start accusing the MTA of allowing the system to go to hell, it should call for an audit. Some months later, after additional layoffs, it should start the public hearing process for a higher fare.
In the end, perhaps the bus system could be replaced with private vans without free transfer rights.
Kill the funpass, weekly, and monthly Metrocards. Only accept coin and tokens on buses until the system can be reprogrammed to elimiante free transfers. And reprogram the system to eliminate 11 for 10.
Reduce the incentive of buying in bulk. making it harder to reduce unneed token booths
drive up costs
reduce revenue.
Screwing the riding public
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
-Stef
Nah, there's really no room for interpretation here. Regardless of the outcome of any appeal, the token will remain history.
Mark
All they need is a flat $1.50 fare. Remember, the average fare these days is $1.07, and the average fare increase was 25 percent. Of course, the commuter railroads already HAD monthly discounts in 1995, so I guess they get to keep them.
If the fare has to go up, then MTA should come clean and 'air their dirty laundry' for all to see. Otherwise F'em...I'll stand with the judge and Straphangers! Don't some of you 'live-with-parent types' realize that this town is getting TOO expensive for many of us to live in anymore! GET A LIFE!
---Chapter 11 MTA
The fact that they don't seem to understand the differece between operating deficit and other one time non revenue items is not my problem.
Highly political judges issue ruling in the best interest of themselves and thier relection campaign.
1/3 of all brooklyn judges are being invesigated for taking bribes to get rullings
the lawyer repreenting straphangers campaign gave a campain donation to the judger trying the case and they both belong to the same democratic club
All of the above was published in the times last week. The MTA chose not to ask for a new judge. whats the sense they are all apart of the same machine that is a modern day tamity hall
increased subsidies? that comes from higher taxes
reduced service and maintance? that drives riders away and end up casuing a bigger deficit
Be realistic hear. that is why I am so in favor of teducing costs in ways that woill not significantly effect riders
shorter trains with one man crews at night and on weekends
deploying cctv and in cab monitors to cut crews to one at all times
these are measures that will alow costs to come in line with expenses
Some of us know damn well the whole state has been cooking the books -- by going deeper and deeper into debt and underfunding the pensions which are now billions in the hole. The truth is the MTA is much worse off than they made it appear, not better. The books were cooked in the opposite direction. As we will find out -- fare increase or no.
That's a good point. Letting things go down the tubes because they're afraid to ask for more money is irresponsible too. The cost of a fare hasn't increased in almost ten years. Of how many other things apart from oil and personal computers can we say that?
One of the main reason the town is too expensive is the outragious salaries that are paid to many unuion workers which is paid for by increased taxes which chase private sector jobs and the tax dollars they bring in out of state.
Look at the facts
We are paying station agents $40+ k a year for a job that is not needed and comprable positions pay half the amoun if you cound bennifts.
It cost twice as much as it does in other cities to put up an office building or housing because union wages far exceed what is practical. Electrcians making $40 an hour. The union created a shortage in jobs in the boom years of the late 1990's not allowing unemployed members from locals outside NYC to fill the shortage driving up costs further
The fare hike can be avoided if the MTA takes a good look at how it spends money and work hard to modernze itself to cut labor costs. It is the only way to keep the fare in check and affordable for all
I wish the unions would fight for waht is in the best interest of the workers they represent.
they don't. they represent thier pocketbooks
Plenty of people get by on far less. What is thier a new definiton of poverty.
Teachers up until recently starting salary was $28k. So do investigators at DOI who don't come close to making $40k unless tjey have many years of experience. None of my coworkers were starving
teaches aids make $23 k a year
police officer start under $40k
Tooken booth clerks shoud make no more then $30-35 a year. And that is even VERY generous
Most people working in such industries such as fashion, television, advetising and customer service don't make anything near $40 k a year. They are not starving.
In this city as it is in most parts of the northeast both parents must work to get the extras in life.
Paying people more then the job is worth drives up the cost of living and taxes and in the end, you are worst off then if you made less. It amounts to soicaism which if you take a look at the soveit union and china it was a big failure
The cost of living so high becasue of outragious salsries the unions have won.
Just one example -- I make about the average for college graduates in the United States 20 years into my career and after a few promotions; I have a graduate degree and most college graduates in the New York area make more. Moreover, police officers, teachers and many others in New York's public workforce earn less in cash than those in the surrounding region and other cities. Take my word for it -- I know much more about this than I do about subways.
What is true, however, is that public employees work fewer years in a career before drawing a pension, and fewer days in a year, than private sector workers. This means that public employment tends to attract only people who, from their first day on the job, look forward to not working. Not good. There is an equity issue here, especially given what is happening to social security and private pensions. But don't overstate the case.
Selective relativly unskilled job title's make far more then they deserve while other more skilled job tiitle make less. It is a paradox that makes it hard for the city to hire and retain workers in skilled jobs that require a high evel of education. When I worked at DOI, the union secretaries made more the 70% of the college educated auditors and investigators leading to highr turnover.
A good example is a tookem booth clerk makes over $40k plus genrous bennifits worth $10k more. Bennifits that far exceed what is available in the private sector
A compoarable private sectoe job makes around $20-30k a year
Not to mention the job of fare sales is no longer needed. The slack could be picked up by MVM's, third pary resellers who could encode cards in the same way S/A now do. The lotery model
Teacher is a good example of a job tiitle that is drastically underpaid. Prior to thier recent raise, they starting salary was $28k. $40k with a masters and 10 years experience. How could you attract quaility trachers and principles to educate our children
My problem is that work rules often handcuff managers from improving effeciencies and to reward workers who do good work and work with subpar workers to improve to provise quality service to city residentds.
The recent scahdle at the DOT pot hole fillers is a perfect example. The work crews took 3 food breaks, went shoping at garge clothing and filled the very minimum of pot holes
An example of unions out of control is the PBA going to the press screaming that police brass wants them to inforce the traffic laws giving tickets out to violators. The union spined into the city is out to give fines to inocent people. Qaulity of life would imprive if the police would consistantly enforce all laws. Too often police turn thier head
A few of my frieds are officer and my feind father is a captain. They all speak of how veteran officers get on rookies if they issue too many tickets.
Not all city workers are overpaid. some are grossly overpaid. the problem is more with the work rules
They don't represent the railbuff viewpoint. Why should they?
The stappies are in a situation for which they outlasted thier original issue and are struggling to stay relevent. now that the subways are in a good state of repair, the focus now needs to focus on reducing the waste and antiquated procceses that drive up operating costs.
Reinventing the fare control system. Close all booth, increase the third party resellers network possible providing terminals to encode cards similar to the lotery model.
Turn the current S/A into securoty and station mangement roles
Reinvent the way buses and train are tracked, monitored ans schedules. Ellimninate the 300 traffic checkers that cost over $6 million a year. Deploy automated train and bus tracking.
Upgrade technology to reduce crews for two to one. Use CCTV platform cameras and in cab video screen to control doors
Run shorter more frewqunet service off hours reducing headways and increasing rider conviences such as easier transfered
Strappies are now alliiend with the TWU and people like Senator Eric T. Schneiderman's who trying to make a political name for himeself at the detroment of the public
Most of the 179 booth closing should close. the MTA's plan was inadequate and groups like the straphangers should focus on insuring the public interst is lookeda after such as increased security, handicap access etc. Instead he is anti anything the MTA does.
Strapies is not shy about releasing misleading often inaccurate studies. The most crazy one was that riders making less then $25k don't use discount metrocards
strapies never tells who and how they came up with the result, how may they interviewed wtc. Most reptiable survey organizations try to get a representitive sample. Strappies look for a sample that proves a predetermined conclusion
voiceofreason said, "Now that the subways are in a good state of repair, the focus now needs to focus on reducing the waste and antiquated procceses that drive up operating costs."
The subways are not yet in a state of good repair, although the situation is obviously a lot better than it was in the early 1980s. Many stations still have not been renovated. Many of the signals and switches still need to be upgraded.
Many of voiceofreason's ideas require significant capital investments to implement, assuming they are feasible at all. It is by no means certain that these are the best ways of spending limited resources.
I have found it an excelent source of information.
Capital investments that have a provable revenue or cost reduction stream attached can be justified in addition to capital investments that just improve service or allow service to be retained at existing levels. An example is the 7 extension. Similarly, capital investment that allowed reduction in S/As could be justified without reducing investment for signaling, etc.
The question with voiceofreason's proposals is whether after you do the capital investment the costs savings can really be achieved.
Now FORGIVE me, please, "voice" ... NOTHING PERSONAL. I know you're VERY sincere and thoughtful within the limits of your own perspective, but the "technology cures everything" mindset (check your NASDAQ short calls, please - I'll bet you owe them money, heh) is DANGEROUS ...
There is a MAJOR difference between what passes for reality in the financial and service industries, and what may seem VERY practical in "new build" transportation systems as well as in "developing nations lacking in tort reform", there is a MAJOR difference between what is acceptable for "software licensing" between "Hi, we're from Microsoft, we're here to lower your IRV's and TCO's" and "VITAL SYSTEMS" ...
READ your EULA ...
"THIS TECHNOLOGY IS NOT FAULT TOLERANT AND IS NOT
DESIGNED, MANUFACTURED, OR INTENDED FOR USE OR
RESALE AS ON-LINE CONTROL EQUIPMENT IN HAZARDOUS
ENVIRONMENTS REQUIRING FAIL-SAFE PERFORMANCE,
SUCH AS IN THE OPERATION OF NUCLEAR FACILITIES,
AIRCRAFT NAVIGATION OR COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS, AIR
TRAFFIC CONTROL, DIRECT LIFE SUPPORT MACHINES, OR
WEAPONS SYSTEMS, IN WHICH THE FAILURE OF JAVA
TECHNOLOGY COULD LEAD DIRECTLY TO DEATH, PERSONAL
INJURY, OR SEVERE PHYSICAL OR ENVIRONMENTAL
DAMAGE. "
No OFFENSE, bro ... but let's get real. REAL subways or anything of VALUE do *****NOT***** run Windows ... we got LAWYERS. Closed circuit TV cameras that can have their lens spray painted ("security alert!") cannot be depended on either in such situations. Now if ANY software (the particular one quoted was from SUN MICROSYSTEMS - hint, NT is WORSE!) CANNOT be depended upon for "life vital" situations (such as public safety) then all this "tech-talk" solution to using "overpaid" hominids is kind of a waste of time. DEVELOP the "*****GUARANTEED*****" computer system, and well ...
PLEASE, no PERSONAL offense intended to you personally, but I have a problem with your WHOLE argument. Even AL GORE wasn't so stupid as to believe in Bill Gates. :(
But SERIOUSLY, SUN's JAVA (not to be confused with "Javascript" which is the SOURCE of all your damned viruses, worms, and other holes in your computer which lets 14 year olds run YOUR machine better than you, and which is the REASON why nothing works, but I digress) ... Sun's "*JAVA*" is pretty damned *SAFE* compared to Billy's neverending "worm du jour" ("Tish, you spoke FRENCH! Cara MIA!") in MS Javaslut ...
but if *SUN*, whose java engine STILL enjoys someWHAT of a "sandobox" to protect your computer, IMAGINE the RISK of Billyware where NO such warnings are issued, and Windows is LEGENDARY ... news DAILY of the LATEST hole, and then ... a NEW ONE ... same as the LAST!!!!
I warned of this in my TESTIMONY before the Federal Trade Commission in 1997 when I *warned* of what was to come of Microsoft's "integration of the internet into their OS" ... reason for mentioning it was, in view of the neverending security holes as a result, "Selkirk TOLD YA SO" ...
Now if a SANDBOXED operating system ("java ala Sun Microsystems") don't cut it, where *ARE* we with Billyware? :(
NOPE! I won't TOUCH transit that runs on "brakepipe error, move ANY handle to reboot train" ware ... NOPE! Not gonna do it ... READ MY LIPS. :(
A few months ago I said we in NYC weren't ready for ATO/CBTC. I pointed out that the engineering costs would offset the labor savings, and that the software would run into ROW obstruction problems. Sometimes we look to technology for unrealistic solutions. Call me a Luddite, but I still think the machines should be more to ASSIST, not REPLACE us...or as my grandfather said a few years back "I don't want that dam***d box to replace ME!"
And all we got was this qwappy XPee. Yep, 50 years later, STILL waiting for "Rosie da robot" to not be any worse than the cartoon. Heh.
After all, here in DIALUP LAND, I live in what Bruno and Paturkey call "Tech Valley" ... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHahahahahahahahaha. To DREAM the impossible (Verizon) dream ... 36KAY or bust! :(
Ayup ... Xpee uber alles ... and a dividend check TOO! (tax-free if you've got one) ... yep ... *I* screwed up running a software business in New York ... in AFGHANISTAN, they gots DSL ... all WE'VE got in the Empire State is a Paturkey PSC which says "Tech Valley can live on dialup, write check to Paturkey and we're cool with that." ... Yep, a dialup can run a subway too. If ONLY we'd move to FRANCE. THEY'VE got DSL everywhere too ... even MONTANA'S got DSL.
But THIS is NEW YORK! FIND the queen, find the queen, Looto jackpot is now $2 MILLION! Woohoo! :-\
Have you considered using Directway from Direct TV? It may not be as fast as cable or even DSL, but at least it's faster than dial-up.
Still amazing though that you can't get DSL or a T-1 even here in "tech valley" ... imagine if New York actually INTENDED to create jobs rather than talking about it. :)
A nice solution for those who can not get broadband is the new NetZero premium service. It speeds up normal web surfing by conmpressing web pages and content before sending them to you sqeezing more info into the 53k of available dialup bandwidth(for those who don't know 56k modems only operates at 53k due to fcc issues)
To think, I almost put the Tech Valley plates on my car.
Nah. Control will just tell you ignore it and signal for an RCI en route. Just "Call us when you overrun the next station."
XP isn't even safe for home computers much less safety-sensitive taaks like running a train. Leave that stuff to Unix.
BTW, I lost the link but there is a "Microsoft Windows XP Automobile Edition" and it sems companies like BMW are insane enough to use it. Good thing I'm a muscle kinda of guy anyway, points and carbs for me. :)
Many camrs are now using drive by wire and break by wire technology,
The nissan Maxima is one on such car
Yup... that's why my '94 Chrysler stopped dead on the highway every couple of miles (crank position sensor) and was getting 8 mpg (O2 sensor), while my '69 Ford doesn't have these problems.
Chrysler was known for poorly manufacturing it's products.
Your 69 ford also gets far less power and polutes the air 10 times as much as modern computer controled engines. todays engines run at tighter tolerances that allow the manufactures to get improved engine behavior
The GM 3800 v6 is the same basic engine that GM has been using for 30 years. Steadly improving computer engine control modules have allowed GM to improve power, fuel performance and emmisions on this old school engine.
Sorry I was wrong, not XP but CE. And you were wrong too. It seems its being used in the control computers. And who knows, by the problems with the R142s maybe its driving their computers too.
A spray painte security camera is still safer then an unmaned platform any day
Technology (in terms of monitoring a cideo) is no better than the UNION MEMBER HOMINID DOING SO ... the "monkey at the console" as it were ... WHERE does electronics improve on the eyeball?
Once again, I intend no malice, but "technology" is no better than the last subcontractor, or ***GASP!!!*** the last "MCSE" ...
SORRY, but given a choice, I'd trust ROGER TOUISSANT before I'd trust Bill Gates ... sorry .. I *****AM****** a programmer. Where's Roger's BUTT? I feel an URGE to SMOOCH it ... once again, no offense, but give me ROGER before BILLY! ***ANY*** ***DAY*** ... :(
Airplanes almost never go into their equivalent of BIE, but it took 40 years for them to get halfway safe and another 60 of steadily decreasing failure rates to get them to where they are today.
I am unable to get money out of an ATM a lesser percentage of the time than I am unable to get a subway to take me where I want to go. But getting the ATMs to that level of reliability also took 20 years.
Voiceofreason has many problems getting his message across: he doesn't write in readable English, he mixes minor technology improvements and major ones into the same thought, he doesn't address the major operational impact of some of his suggestions, etc. But eventually the suggestions he is making will come to New York. Just not that quickly.
OK, maybe a computer can make change (went to see Mister Money today and Mister Money was broken) but I sure wouldn't want to see one running a train. I'll take the bus if that's the choice ...
They don't run on microcrap windoows. the run highly reliable unix based operating systems
How many elevators do you hear about crashing. Most elevators are microprocessor controled.
Most elevator accidents occur when the elevator is undergoing manintance and is all safety features are not engaged
While the TA didn't continue the "automated train" program as a result of TWU's displeasure with the idea, valuable lessons were learned that had MORE to do with the TA shelving automation. The lessons were how insanely expensive it would be to retrofit a 100 year old system for automation. 40 years later, it's STILL too expensive although slowly, provisions are being made to make it possible perhaps another 40 years down the road.
But for all the talk about automation, the purpose of it is more to determine exactly WHERE trains are in the system and a means to shoehorn in MORE trains safely rather than actually RUNNING the trains. Elevators by contrast are pretty simple and have few variables. I still wouldn't expect a computer to handle a 12-9 properly and if a train spontaneously dumps on the road, I wonder if a computer would be able to walk the tracks and deal with it.
Lemme put this another way ... would YOU feel safe riding in a computerized taxicab on Broadway?
A central server that cost a few hundred thousand dollars 40 years ago now costs less then $5 thousand dollars.
Todays railcars are better suited for automated operation. The onboard electroncs are 1/1000 of the cost of 40 years ago.
Computing power today is dirt cheap and far more reliable then 40 years ago
The ecomimics of upgrading the system for automation is differnt now. 40 years ago you were not paying train crews $100 thousand dolars per crew with cost rising even more each year
The signaling system needs to be completly replaced anyway. so the costs of installing a completly new signalling sytem is offset by the needed replacement cost of the old system making it more affortable.
"But for all the talk about automation, the purpose of it is more to determine exactly WHERE trains are in the system and a means to shoehorn in MORE trains safely rather than actually RUNNING the trains."
Really. Not true. If you believe the MTA is going through all the trouble to install CBTC on the L without the intention to have a central server drive the train you are nieve.
"Elevators by contrast are pretty simple and have few variables."
Computer systems are desinged to handle more variables. They excell at them.
" I still wouldn't expect a computer to handle a 12-9 properly and if a train spontaneously dumps on the road, I wonder if a computer would be able to walk the tracks and deal with it."
In most cases you will still have a crew member aboard to handle it or you qould simply have a responce crew that handles such issues.
In the mean time CCTV platform camera;s could be used to reduce two man crews tro one creating economies of scale until all the lines are eventully updated as the useful lfe of the signaling system demands the upgrades
Or for VB fans like Selkirk:
If TwelveNine Then PhuckIt
I'm sure that the TA wouldn't be so dumb as to go completely operatorless. Other cities still have personnel on board. So the train goes BIE and the operator has to investigate just like (s)he would now.
But I still think computer controlled subways are a bad idea in NYC.
But you forgot your includes and defines ... that dog won't compile. Add this:
#DEFINE TWU=100;
#DEFINE TRUE=FALSE;
#include
#include
#include <$bribe.h>
union {AFL-CIO, AFSCME, DC37} CONTRACT;
Should compile now and stop the train. Don't forget to link with announce.lib or you'll be in a whole WORLD of hurt. :)
Nah, I do it in C myself. VB is so ... primitive.
But you forgot your includes and defines ... that dog won't compile. Add this:
#DEFINE TWU=100;
#DEFINE TRUE=FALSE;
#include < pataki.h >
#include < bruno.h >
#include < $bribe.h >
union {AFL-CIO, AFSCME, DC37} CONTRACT;
Should compile now and stop the train. Don't forget to link with announce.lib or you'll be in a whole WORLD of hurt. :)
Linux although technically open source is now supported by the likes of IBM who supply who provide the product support. Older unix based manufactures such as SUN are on the roops. In fact their is an article in todays NYTIMES concerning SUN being a takeover target.
Clustering technology conbines multiple computer to act as one. For example if computer 2 fails, computer 3 picks up it's load. The calling application is blind to what is going on the backend. it results in near 100% uptime
$5000 is a bit high for entry level, Dell's entry level server packages can be had for as little as $300 including a single pentium 4 processors, one raid controler and two 100 gb hard drives.
These days the service contracts and software cost more then the systems. The systems are dirt cheap.
For $5000 you get not only the server with multiple processors, all the redundent hardare(multiple power supplies, fans, hot swappable drives, multiple raid controllers etc) and servcice and support of both the hardware, o/s software etc.
Not only are costs 1000 times cheaper, but the technological possibilities are more the engineers 40 years ago could immagine. The current system being deployed by NYCT on the L is based on wireless technologies not possible 40 years ago. Fiber optic technology used to communicate between wireless points was not even invented 40 years ago. Such fiver optic technologies are 1/100 what they cost 10 years ago.
Universal protocals for communications between differnt devices exists today that would have all had to be designed from scatch 40 years ago.
As for the load requirements. the PC on your desk is more powerful than anything the MTA would have used 40 years ago to manage train operations. The comadore 64 was more powerful then the computers aboard the first flight of the space shuttle Colombia. Columbia first flight was 1980 20 years ago
Huge server farms are not needed to manage automated train operations. As compared to other computing tasks, the computing power needed to manage the subway system is not as great as you may think. A few hundred trains and switches is nothing as compared to the thousands of requests a secound modern computers routinly handle.
Most likly ATO would be deployed with a distrubuted network of rather inexpensive servers connect together via fiber optics and communicate to the trains via wireless protocals
Concidering the few clustered intel boxes costing less then $10k each are replacing entire rooms of mainframes and minicomputers costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, the costs of upgrading for automated train control are far cheaper then manual control train operations.
I saw wirh my own eyes back in 1999 at IBM's sothbury CT data center. A 100 by 100 room of mainframes was reduced to 5 clustered servers running the majority of citibanks banking operation. I was interviewing with IBM global services at the time.
As for the cost of such systems. They are far less expensive then manual train operations. Labor costs for manual train opeations cost in the $ Billions a year.
The real expense is replacing a signaling system that is not past it's useful life. If you look at the MTA's capitol projects, they have already installed fiber optic lines throughout much of the subway system, they are building new central control centers.
Is that a trick question? Its gotta be safer than some of these guys out there.
Lemme put this another way ... would YOU feel safe riding in a computerized taxicab on Broadway?
Yeah, you make some good points there Selkirk automation will take a LONG time and a computer cannot do things a human could i.e. checking a stalled train. As for your comment regarding the taxicab, as I understand it human taxi drivers are dangerous but I could imagine a computerized cab ;-).
As stations are renovated, include many of the features such as CCTV cameras to cover the entire platform. Currently they are installing CCTV at most renovated stations but they are only covering parts of platforms where there are blindspots. Since the contractors are already thieinstalling the CCTV, the cost of adding addtioal cameras is not that great.
the time to advocate for upgrades is now while money is being spent to upgrade stations and infrastucture. It is important to make the right choices so that money does not have to be respent latter to modify equiptment
Capitol expentitures such as Platform CCTV, car modifications to allow the T/O to control al the doors from the front of the train, in cab cctv Return on investment is rather quick. Granted that such car upgrades are only cost effecive on equiptemnt that you plan to keep in service for at least 15-20 years (r46 and newer)
The best way to spend money is on those items that will save you money.
Not necessarily. Other meritorious ways to spend money include: adding service; increasing reliability; refurbishing dilapidated stations; and, bringing new riders onto mass transit.
The fare is now $1.67 or less for anyone who lives in New York City and uses the system 6 times in 2 years.
In the early 60s you could get a nice mid sized sedan for $2000. Try getting that now for $16,700.
Try getting a slice of pizza for $1.67, for that matter.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
I do agree with you, a slice of Pizza is hars to come by today. I haven't seen a slice in NYC so that will go any lower that 1.50...
Funny you should come up with that figure... that's EXACTLY the price (before taxes and tags) that my daughter paid for her top-of-the-line 2000 Ford Taurus SEL as a leftover in May 2001. And I'm not sure where you're getting that $2000 figure from... a compact Ford Falcon four door sedan, 6 cylinder, three-on-the-tree, no power anything, had an MSRP of $2082 in 1965. Add a heater and defroster, outside mirrors, backup lights, windshield washers, automatic, air conditioning, power steering and brakes, and an AM radio (the only kind you could get) and you were up past $2600, with a delivered price (before taxes and tags) a bit over $2400.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why not? With the proffered volume discounts it's not that much. And basically, that's life. I don't want the abandonment and breakdowns of earlier decades. Geeze, and how can improvements get done without sufficient funds? It's still WAY cheaper than owning a car, which gets you with either monthly payments for years if it's a new car, or methodical lump-sum payouts if it's a used car. Nice sized chunks too, $150, $600, $1800, etc. Along with the increased rish to life and limb that comes with immersing yourself within a chaotic matrix of quasi-ballistic "objects-in-motion". Riding the trains is one of the more civilized ways of getting around.
Two bucks? Yeah, okay. I can get from 20th Avenue in Bensonhurst to Times Square for that? Good deal. I've walked it; takes a couple hours. And poor as I am, I sure as hell ain't gonna ask the city I live in to re-structure itself to facilitate someone like myselfs' need to get around. I won't eat the seed corn. A deuce ain't squat.
For many riders like myself the fare is lower then it was in 1984
Yes 1984. I live in a former two fare zone
Currennt fare after discount at $10 $1.67
Fare in 1984 for my dad to get to work $1.80 ($0.90 bus + $0.90 train) for a far crumier service, no a/c and frequent breakdowns
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
T/O startting salary $23.85 gaurentted at least 40 hrs = $49,608 before night weekend diferential + 2 hr OPTO Bonus +$10k + in bennifits
A rather fair pay scale but concidering the working conditions.
With two man crews this cost is way too high from an operational point of view. One many crews would allow better service
S/A
Aprox $20-24 hr $41,600-47,800. Once again gaurentted 40 hour work week hampering the MTA's ability to schedule booth hours when needed. An example would be a yankee game may need more S/A. Under the current work rules overtime would need to be paid at a higher rate. Thier should be some part time workers to allow for flexibikity.
Forbes magazine just came out with an article ranking the nation's 150 largest metropolitan areas by their attractiveness to business. New York was well down the list at 92, and in fact was dead last in terms of business costs. Only the high skill levels of many workers kept its overall ranking from being even worse.
By the way, the best areas, in order, are:
Austin
Boise
Raleigh
Atlanta
Madison
Provo
Omaha
Des Moines
Dallas
Washington
Note that six out of the top ten, or maybe seven depending on how you classify Washington, are in the Sunbelt. Get the hint?
Austin
Raleigh
Atlanta
Provo
Dallas
Where is #6?
Boise. While Idaho may not be part of the Sunbelt in climatological terms, it certainly so qualifies in a cultural and political sense.
I was recentlu offered a job in richmond VA. The money was half what I making in NYC. I checed out how much an apartment cost.
For $750 a month I could live in a nice apartment developement in walking distance from work, indoor pool, gym etc.
In NYC my condo carrying charges for maintaice(by overpricedunion janitors) is $600 a month
that is $600 a month on top of my mortgage for a basic middle class building in brooklyn.
And the building workers union had the nerve to want to go on strike. This assertion that all workers no matter the job or dedication to that job should be paid enought to raise 2 children a dog and a family vacation is socialism and is crazy.
Thar is what the building workers union wanted $41k a head.
All that does is drive up the cost of apartments and condo on working and middle class new yorkers. It does not mattet to the wealthy.
Great. Now we're descending into regionalistic squabbling. Look, all those towns west of the Hudson and south of the Outterbridge are nice and fun to visit and all. But, c'mon already! They're bush league in comparison to the Big Town. Most of their "city streets" are generally empty of life compared to just about any regular New York block. And the food sucks, by and large. Ever see fruit in supermarkets? It cracks me up that the average New York fruit stand has better fruit available than the global megamarket congloms can offer. With all their buying power.
We're in the middle of it so we forget how much this is so. Until we cut out for a while. Like, I was in Tampa a few months ago. Not a bad looking place but....hardly any pedestrians. It's always weird to see those skyscraper-type buildings sitting on empty sidewalks. You expect flows of people. Nothing. No delis, few "grils", a few pizza joints (they don't deserve the proud New York name "parlor"), just not much to wander into. Though it looks good from a distance....
That, I think, is what makes it worthwhile to live here in New York. In the end, it's the people. Sheesh, look at Flatbush Avenue, or Park Avenue. Nowhere else but here.
New York's vibrant street life indeed is a fine thing. Unfortuantely, all too many New Yorkers have plenty of time on the street - because they don't have jobs. These characterless Sunbelt cities and suburbs may be less enjoyable that New York, but at least people in those places have jobs. And that's all that really matters.
Really? I don't know about that. Obviously, the majority of New Yorkers have jobs. We AIN'T the Sunbelt so OF COURSE the pressure is harder here. Ipso facto. But I'll tell you this: our minds are sharper for it. I guess I'd rather be smart/"poor" than numb/"comfortable". At least here, you can take a stroll down the more tonier boulevards, happy as a jaybird, taking in the atmosphere, letting it uplift you and give you new zest for tomorrow. How many people in all of America can walk amongst the "rich folk" and nobody cares a whit? With all the gated communities going up I'd bet not many. So there's another benefit to living in hectic New York City. We get to be closer to the monied society. Which is very good for a democracy. Thank G-d for New York streets, the great equalizer.
It ain't all being able to manage the cable payments and the car and the new bedroom set.
Although NY political structure and out of control unions and lower cout judges handcuff the cities ability to provide services and keep taxes down, NY can come back.
Union memembers need to hold thier leaders accountable for thier actions. The PBA is paying $100,000 out of union dues to try to discredit the plice commissioner for enforcing such laws as the cell phone ban while driving, seatbelt law, red light running and dangerous driving
The campaign is trying to scare the public into thinking the NYPD is just out to raise money at the expense of the public. the last I looked if you break the law you pay the price
Personally as a law abiding citzen I welcome the effort. Too long do New Yorkers have to deal with those who ignor traffic safety laws. Some lady was cursing me out becasue i would not allow her to make a U-turn on ave U and ocean mid block.
One of the biggest complaints of ex-NYers is that they have to deal with those who do not follow the law.
What is the sudden urgency for the campaign. You guessed it the PBA president is up for re-election
First of all, $40,000 is poverty level in NY. What should a token clerk make, minimum wage?
Hell yeah. I mean why should TA workers be allowed to make a living? We are "civil servants" and deserve to live like them right?
Ok, sarcasm aside. Also, what you overlook when looking at an S/As salary is that IT IS THE MAXIMUM PAY FOR S/As. Like wise for other positions.
Top pay for my title is somewhere in the range of $43G. I have gone through two titles and have only made the starting salary in each (which roughly right now is $33G). So how could one classify me as one of the higher paid employees when I'm making $10G less?
The point, stop generalizing the slary of all TA employees.
And if $40G is poverty level, then I hate to know what I am... :)
And I'm not alone. You have a great number of new employees not making near your stated figure.
And why am I not surprised over the mention of S/As here...
The word poverty has been spun to mean can not buy the BMW I wanted instead of the true meaning of not enough money for food and shelter.
My dad raised a family of 5, paid for 3 children to go to college on a little over $40k in salary. Of course he saved some money and invested it in the stock market and a home and which allowed hime to earn a bit more.
My point about the S/A is that we are paying a position twice the going rate and they complained they are underpaid. If we pay people twice the going rate, the money gets steared away from more important things such as more subway service, more cops, better paid teachers etc.
Yes someone has the right to earn a living, but that right does not mean that they need to be paid that amount for any job they do.
With that logic we should pay janitors $50k etc
The more you overpay for a particular job the higheer you must raise fares and taxes which have other concequences
Thier needs to be a balance. The balance is out of wack.
A station agent gets paid more then a Asst. Trans.Mgmt.Analyst at the MTA which is a position that is highly skilled and has the potential to save tons of money if filled with a good candidate for which you will not get at that salary
Can I see where you got that figure?
General Analyst Positions
Title: Asst. Trans.Mgmt.Analyst I, II
Department: Subways
Salary: Level I $42,480 - $50,291
http://www.mta.info/nyct/hr/postings/analysts.htm
The salary for this position is about $15-30k below a comprible position in the private sector
Level II $49,325 - $54,935
Second, the TOP pay of an S/A is about 1G more than the STARTING pay of a level I.
Do you get the difference yet? You can't say "An S/A with 3 years on the job makes more than a new GAP." THAT COMPARISON MAKES NO SENSE.
Top pay for level I takes many many yeas to achieve.
The one thing you may not know, is that moving up in pay is not gauranteed. the fact that the salary ranges up to a certain level is not an indication of what you will earn. when I worked at DOI the salary range for my position was $30k-55k. I knew of no-one who made anywhere close to 50k hense the high turnover rate
Also remember that such job requires a 4 year degree, plus tons of other skills. Top people will not apply for the job due to it's low salary, skilss needed and the availablilty of much better pay other places. the TA ends up getting secound rate candidate for the most part except for a few perople who truely enjoy transit issue
Maybe they don't need as much as they said as soon as they said it was needed as urgently as they claimed. But anyone who thinks new subway lines and other desperately needed capital improvements will ever happen without lots of additional funding is wrong. As I'm sure I've said, I'm tired of hearing the MTA cry "Poverty!" Give them the money and let's start demanding results to show for it.
it is time we form a subtalk transit advocacy group.
All straphangrs campaign is one lawyer and two organizers(public complainers)
All we need to do is print a few leaflets and alert the tv statiions that we are having a news confernce in X place
No offense, but being for a fare increase can hardly be called "transit advocacy".
It certainly can. People in favor of a fare increase would be AGAINST deferred maintenance and service reductions. What's the point of a cheap subway if it's a piece of shit?
Still the subway does not pay off its capital expenditures with the fare.
Arti
2 man crews, manual towers, manual bus trackers. Ineffecient off peak scheduling using full length trains
And who ever said it was a right to buy a fare from a human teller at each and every fare control
One does not leave his house without money and keys in his pocket. One should not leave his house without proper fare for the subway or bus
For years bus riders needed exact change to ride the bus. Why should the subway be any differnt
the truth is that the MTA is lagging in achieving operational effeciencoes brought on by technology. It has a long way to go to catch up
A good place to start is begining to roll out line by line one man cres using CCTV platform camera's and in cab flat pannel monitors.
It only makes sense to upgrade R46 and newer equiptment for such service. Not all line could use such an arrangements but it would save hundreds of millions a dollars a year and be just as safe or safer then the current arrangements.
The first line could be utilizing this system within months
It probably costs more to break and make up trains than just running them full length for most of the day.
And who ever said it was a right to buy a fare from a human teller at each and every fare control
Its not, but human tellers can often be more efficient with high volumes of people, especially with cash transactions. Also, a human presence in each station is a significant boost to customer service, customer safety and the protection of subway property.
How do you define "first class" service? Free coffee and doughnuts to 7 million customers. Both Dunkin Donuts and Krispy Kreme will file Chapter 11 as early as tommorrow.
You speak the truth.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Just a coupla' stingy TA cash heads up top WHO DON'T LIKE TO SPEND THE MONEY THEY (proven) HAVE
to FUND the BEST Subway System on the planet... barnone.
If you brahs have the money to SUPPORT this fare hike, why not
start by SUPPORTING your fellow posters to whom $1.50 is a g*dsend.
In the same bowl of course.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
If you ride more than five times in two years, buy a MetroCard for $10 and you'll pay only $1.67 per ride, and get free transfers to the bus to boot.
If you don't ride more than five times in two years, your complaint is over a grand total of $1.25 or less per year.
The average rider pays no more then $1.60 per ride
People in forer two fare zones are still paying less then tehy were paying in 1995
So we waisted a hundred thousand dollars in court time to slap the mta on the wrist. The people who are going to flip the bill are the subway an bus riders
I've taken the liberty to fix your statement, if you don't mind.
There was a free bus-to-subway transfer in 1984?
B35 to the F at Church Av
B42 to the L at Rockaway Parkway
B46 to the 3 & 4 at Utica Av
Bx55 to the 2 & 5 at 3 Av/149 St
Why was a heavy commuter line such as B2 to kings highway D Q M left out
And if the B42 does, why don't any of the other buses that terminate there?
Currently all buses go to the end at SC.
The P/T branch on the B17 also used to end at RP, now it's a loop for the rush hour/evening Avenue L branch.
There was also free transfer at Gun Hill Road to/from the 2.
The reason there was a free transfer on the Bx55 was because it was a replacement for the Bronx portion of the 3rd Av El. When the El operated people could trasnfer between it and the subway lines at no additional fare. The paper tranfer to the bus was to continue that ability.
The B35 transfer was to replace the transfer from the Culver Shuttle which was/is now covered by the B35 bus.
The B42 transfer was a "leftover" to compensate for the cutback in the Canarsie line service (trolley)way back in the early days of the BRT/BMT from the Canarsie shore to Rockaway Parkway.
I have no idea as to the history on the B46.
But technically, you were not obligated to take the subway after using either the B46 in Brooklyn, the Bx22 in the Bronx, or the Merrick Blvd buses (forgot to mention that), they had the "Save a Dollar program". You just have to posses the R/T bus ticket and use the only bus stop closest to the station.
Some residents in S/E Queens worked in the Jamaica Center area so it was a big help for them.
Also, prior to 1988 there was a special bus transfer between the buses at High St (B57, old 62, 67, 69 and 75) to the A train. But on return, you can only get your transfer ticket at B'way-Nassau station in Manhattan.
Amount paid by person in two fare zone in 1984: $1.80
Amount paid by person in same place in 2003: $1.67
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
And if youse happen to be the 4839893879875332.3 customer, youse
get a big, red, oily, greasy storm door handed you for $100 +
no shipping cost.
I agree, please kill the $7.00 fun pass, no one is going to buy it.
The whole purpose of the new fare structure is to favor frequent riders over those who ride less often. Plus reduce then number of total transactions at MVM's and tooken booths saving on the cost of selling fares. A worth y endevor
Plus you want to keep fares in even dollars to put less stress on MVM's so that they do not need to stock quarters as change and so they can stock more dollar coins
The MTA's discount policy favors frequnet users who cost less to service and to sell fares to and pushes higher costs on tourists and infrequne t users AKA favors thier best cistomers over the occasional customer
The fun pass is priced right at $7. People were abusing the fun pass at $4, The fun pass at $4 added unneeded transactions at mvm's. The $7 price encourages riders to purchace a $21 weekly pass which in the end is more cost effective for both sides if the rider is a regualr user
No joke. I can look for and scan the article from the brooklyn skyline if you like
People who buy fares more often in smaller amounts cost more to serve then those who buy more in larger qauntities.
Consider that S/A get paid $23 hour. at an average(not a station like 42nd st) station a S/A services no more then 20 cusotmers per hour. That measn each transaction cost nearly $1. Those who buy single tokens(when sold at the booth) were paying $1 for the cost to have someone to sell the the fare and $0.50 for the ride
More smaller transactions at MVM's requires stocking more change, reciepts, and maintance for the machine
Why should these people shoulder the costs of those who choose to buy in smaller quantities.
Aside from the unemployed railbuff, those who used fun passes for daily commuting are trying to get something for nothing. the purpose of the fun pass is to attreact tourists
Doesn't it make a slight difference how and when those fares are used?
The typical Fun Pass ueer makes a bunch of short trips, mostly off-peak. It costs NYCT practically nothing to provide short off-peak trips. The cars are on the property, the tunnels are in place, and the crews are even working (ask Stephen Bauman why I say that).
The typical 30-day user takes two long rides on rush hour trains. Long rides on rush hour trains are expensive. New lines are occasionally built to meet rush hour demand. Car purchases must be sufficient to satisfy rush hour demand. Crews must be deployed in sufficient quentities to satisfy rush hour demand.
I'd love to buy, say, a 20-day nonconsecutive card for the same $70 a 30-day consecutive card sells for, but no such card is available. You can't blame Fun Pass users for not making bulk purchases if no bulk purchases are available.
Consider that S/A get paid $23 hour. at an average(not a station like 42nd st) station a S/A services no more then 20 cusotmers per hour. That measn each transaction cost nearly $1. Those who buy single tokens(when sold at the booth) were paying $1 for the cost to have someone to sell the the fare and $0.50 for the ride
Fun Passes were never sold at booths.
More smaller transactions at MVM's requires stocking more change, reciepts, and maintance for the machine
So the 75% increase in the price of a Fun Pass is to cover the cost of the receipt?
Aside from the unemployed railbuff, those who used fun passes for daily commuting are trying to get something for nothing.
Those who use Fun Passes for daily commuting are stupid. In case you didn't notice, a 30-day pass costs 10 times as much as a Fun Pass.
The Fun Pass is -- or was, I should say -- very useful for the noncommuter who has to run a few errands.
No. So many regular NYCers were using it that NYCT was loosing money it thought it would have. Fun pass was only to be for tourists. When people realized they could get it and spend less on 3 trips, it became a cost drain.
How was NYCT losing money on the Fun Pass?
When messengers and other intensive travelers made 5 trips in 1 day, 2 of them in the rush hour, and paid $4 instead of $6.82.
The Fun Pass met some good social objectives, but it did cost them money.
Those midday rides are practically free. So a messenger who did use a Fun Pass would be paying $2 per rush hour trip per day. That's more than what a 30-day unlimited cardholder or even a PPR user paid per rush hour trips.
Thanks in part to an affordable Fun Pass, the majority of subway rides shifted from peak to off-peak. That's an amazing accomplishment -- not as a social objective, but as a cash-saving objective.
Something is not clear here. If the majority of rides shifted from peak to off-peak, then there would be a new peak period in what had been off peak hours. The old peak hours would be non-peak.
It seems to me, that the fun pass may have increased off-peak usage, but did not decrease peak usage. Although the additional off peak usage could be handled at little additional cost, without a reduction of peak usage, there was no cost savings, and to the extent that fun passes replaced revenue trips that would be taken anyway, it cost the MTA money.
Tom
There are more hours in the off peak than in the peak. Therefore the majority of rides can be off peak, but the number of riders per hour can still be higher at the peak times.
to the extent that fun passes replaced revenue trips that would be taken anyway, it cost the MTA money.
Exactly correct.
Fun Passes encouraged short midday subway rides among those who might otherwise walk between errands, or use subway-bus transfers to make multiple stops, or even drive (midday traffic isn't terrible and short-term metered parking is easy to find in most of the city).
It worked for me in all three ways. Now I'll go back to walking or taking the bus or driving, and NYCT won't get my $4.
Now, can someone explain to me how NYCT benefits from offering a $70 30-day unlimited pass?
Because the 30-day pass now costs LESS than a standard 30-day work month on pay per ride, more people will be using the card. If you already have an unlimited ride card, you're more likely to make that weekend trip by subway instead of by car.
The Fun Pass brings in money for those empty off-peak seats. The 30-day unlimited doesn't -- in fact, it reduces the cost of peak travel, which is expensive to provide.
The new price structure is better.
OTOH, the vast majority of 30-day unlimiteds are used during both rush hours on nearly all weekdays in the month, and they're used for longer rides, on average. Why should someone who rides rush hours only get a discount?
Who do you think costs more to accomodate, ten typical Fun Pass users over the course of a day or one typical 30-day unlimited user over the course of a month?
Would you object to a $5.00 Fun Pass that isn't valid between 6 and 9am on weekdays?
You suspect. Do you actually have any evidence to back that up?
OTOH, the vast majority of 30-day unlimiteds are used during both rush hours on nearly all weekdays in the month, and they're used for longer rides, on average.
How are you sure that they're used for longer rides? Would a person who lives closer to the CBD be less likely to use a 30-day pass for commutation, or would that same person be more likely to use a fun pass for short trips?
Who do you think costs more to accomodate, ten typical Fun Pass users over the course of a day or one typical 30-day unlimited user over the course of a month?
I don't know how a "typical" fun pass user rides.
No, but I make educated guesses in the absence of hard numbers. I've seen neither hard numbers nor educated guesses from you.
Almost everyone on the subway in the morning rush is commuting to work, and most commuters commute every weekday. The Fun Pass, even at its former price, is a bad deal for a daily commuter.
Counterargument?
How are you sure that they're used for longer rides? Would a person who lives closer to the CBD be less likely to use a 30-day pass for commutation, or would that same person be more likely to use a fun pass for short trips?
I don't understand your question. Nobody is likely to make more than two long commute-length trips per day -- any additional trips are probably short, hopping from errand to errand or from tourist site to tourist site. The 30-day unlimited is priced to be attractive even to someone who only takes those two long commute-length trips per day; the Fun Pass, even at its former price, isn't attractive without at least one additional trip.
I don't know how a "typical" fun pass user rides.
Then turn on your brain and figure it out -- or at least refrain from engaging in an argument if you don't have the hard numbers and are unwilling to make educated guesses.
The average 30-day unlimited user makes at least 40 commute-length trips per month, probably but not necessarily during rush hour. He may take more rides but that's the bare minimum.
The 30-day unlimited sells for exactly 10 times the price of the Fun Pass.
Does the average Fun Pass user make at least 4 commute-length trips per day, probably but not necessarily during rush hour, as a bare minimum?
What do you think?
Again: would you object to a $5 Fun Pass not valid during the morning rush?
No.
If you use it 100 times in a period of three weeks or less then it's a waste.
Not if the daily commuter only needs the fun pass once or twice in that month.
Again: would you object to a $5 Fun Pass not valid during the morning rush?
No.
It cost a good sum of money to per transaction. About a $1 a transaction at a booth. Somewhat less at a MVM
Multipley $2.82 cents by a couple of hundred thousand fun passes sold per year plus the cost of selling the fare and it adds up to a big money looser.
Monthly and weekly passes make more sense for the intensive user and customers alike. Raising the price of fun passes more then weekly and mobthly passes helps more customers and keeps costs transaction costs down
I came up with $2.82 as part of an example in the posting he was replying to.
Before the fare increase, 5 rides with a Fun Pass cost $4.00. Without a Fun Pass, they cost $6.82.
NYCT makes money on the Fun Pass when it pulls people onto the system who otherwise would have traveled some other way, or when someone buys a Fun Pass and then doesn't take enough rides to make it worthwhile.
NYCT loses money on the Fun Pass when someone who would have ridden the system anyway gets unlimited rides for a low fixed price.
My guess is that the second category outnumbers the first.
For that matter, the second category doesn't outnumber the first on free intermodal transfers?
Weekly and monthly cards do
The average rider who buys a fun pass becasue already knows he is going to need to make more then 3 rides that day is already a rider who is not looking for another option. Therefor is taking fares out of the kiddie
Weekly and monthly pass holders who ride to work now may use mass transit for other things since the pass is free. Combine with transetcheck metrocard the proposition of buying monthly vs PR is even greater.
The new fare structure encourages riders to to use mass transit more
#3 West End Jeff
Therefore the fare must be rolled back to 5¢ immediately. Also, no hearings were held on the removal of the ticket choppers. The subway is dangerous without them.
#3 West End Jeff
Yes on two man crews, full length trains at all hours of the night, hundreds of unneeded token booths, outdated bus monitoring technology etc.
It's a crying shame that the riding public needs to pay for thierr failure to update thier technology to the 21th century
It is up to the govenor to force a more stremlined adminstrativre process.
In addition, the union, straphangers campaign or who ever else wants a say in any changes should dictate that a certain service improvements be tied to the effeceincy changes
It has been spun many ways, but my support of tooken booth closings is tied to concrete implimentation of increased security in the form of monitored cctv and increaed security patrols.
The recuction of two man crews to one should also include concrete plans of where the savings will be allocated
10% increased tph
a raise for remaining t/o
etc
One should not happenm without the other
That is what i mean when the current advocacy groups do not represent the true intersts of riders. They just oppose every move instead of trying to see how a move could bennifit both sides.
By the way, neither the Newsday article nor the Straphanger's article says anything about the tolls. Considering the MTA controls the TBTA now, if the fares get rolled back then the tolls should too. I think it is totally insane that one has to pay a $7 round trip for the privilege of driving from Queens to the Bronx. But then again, I guess the AAA ain't as powerful as the Staphangers.
TBTA Tolls still going up!!!!!!
It says so in the linked PDF file. Yes! This makes me a little happier. I hope you are too. I'm sure we can all think of 1000 reasons why this is good news.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I'm sure that legal consistency is not on the list.
Higher tolls are a bad deal for people traveling between Long Island and, say, New Jersey, who usually do not have any reasonable transit alternatives.
Of course it hasn't. Those high bridge tolls are covering much of the shortfall from the subway operations. I love that arrangement.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Their toll is going up 5000%!
75% of the people who use this bridge aare NY residents
The toll increase effects the price of all products trucked into the city thus hits each and every new yorker in the pocketbook
This notion that rasing the toll hurts the rich or out of staters is crazy.
It price of the toll is what's crazy. A $2 base fare is a bargin in comparison
Restore the "temporary" cuts in SI Ferry service that were made in the '70s (quickly, 'cause they want to make some more).
Run the S53 more often - every 40 minutes at night is kind of pathetic, since it is the ONLY NYCT-operated way of the Island 24/7 (the ferry isn't Transit and the S79 shuts down at night). Then, when I finally get to Brooklyn, all I can connect with is a SHUTTLE. Wonderful idea, mass transit.
So, I'll continue to drive for the pleasure of paying $4.00 to sit in traffic at 0430 on a six-lane (each way) bridge that only has one available lane on random midnights. Wednesday morning I was able to put my car in 'Park' due to the chaos caused by an unsigned one-lane-only.
Anyone want to bet how much they'll try to up the fare next year if this rollback sticks?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Who will perform the outside audit? Arthur Andersen? Next thing you know, Chinese battery sellers will be pitching portable shredders in the subway.
why fire the mta board. They did nothing wrong. they released all information REQUIRED BY LAW. Blame the reporting requirements.
A lower base fae means that more of the tranit fare is to be paid by those who use it most.
Remember that the metrocard discount was rasied to nearly 20% plus it kicks in at a lower dollar/ride point adressing and the monthly and weekly passes which are the best value for any commuter was not raised much at all.
You need to look behind he base fare number. The $2 bass fare is akin to a tourist surcharge. We should be happy for that.
The average ride paid by a commuter is sill $1.32. A rather fare deal
If they only raise the base fare to $1.75, the montly and weekly pass and discount given will decrease increasing the cost of goods sold by reducing the ammount of money each rider spends per transactiona at a tooken booth or MVM
Based on what?
Mark
and also factoring the average cost per ride of all those who use unlimited ride weekly and monthly cards
If a rider buys an unlimited ride mohtly metrocar and just uses it to go to and from owrk each week the average cost per ride is $1.75
Most montly and weekly metrocard uses tend to be the most heavy users of mass transit. If that rider just rides 4 extrea rides per week(two round trip) the average ride comes done to $1.25
Factor in weekly unlimited ride cards which cost a bit more and you arrive at the $1.32 estimated average cost per ride based on past usage
Under the old fare structure the average cost per ride was $1.06
The new fare structure rasies the base fare for mostly out of town riders and those who ride the subways and buse infrewurntly more then those who ride more often
My average cost per ride under the new fare structure before taking into account transitcheck discount is about a dollar. I make around 70 rides a month. Grant it if I did not have an unlimited ride card I would not make as many trips. The freedom of knowing it is not costing you more vs the cost of gas is a huge incentive.
Prior to unlimited ride montly passes I drove more and spent less on mass transit more on gad
Anyone in the transit check program pays about $50 a month for a thier monthy unlimited ride metrocard.
That works out to $1.26 a ride if the person only uses the card to go to and from work
$1.09 for a person who takes one extra round trip a week
and
$0.90 a ride for a person who commutes to work and takes two extra rount trips per week. Hardly expensive and still the best deal in town
The is two way to do this
For subscription transit check gold customers(yearly metrocards deducted from ones paycheck), subscription elderly and disabled customers could simply acces thier account online and check thier usage patterns and cost per ride calculator
For riders buy metrocards at MVM's or tooken booths they would simply need to create an anynomus account at MTA.info and enter the metrocard serial number for the cards they wish to track thier usage
All the infomation already existes in the MTA;s automated fare control detabase. It can be mines out rather easily. A simple datamining package such as business object, cognos or specially written SQL scripts can be used to accomplish this. I programed just such a similar system for a former employer.
The MTA must already be doing a breakout of cost per ride of each claee of metrocard already including cost per ride including free bus transfers etc. It is rather simplle with metrocard
Such as system will drive home the point that mass transit in NYC has bucked inflation and actually dropped in price despite the rasie in the base fare
The MTA tells the truth more than he does.
$1.67
If a rider buys an unlimited ride mohtly metrocar and just uses it to go to and from owrk each week the average cost per ride is $1.75
No, it's less than that. $1.63 over most 30-day periods assuming one round trip per weekday.
Most montly and weekly metrocard uses tend to be the most heavy users of mass transit. If that rider just rides 4 extrea rides per week(two round trip) the average ride comes done to $1.25
$1.17
Factor in weekly unlimited ride cards which cost a bit more and you arrive at the $1.32 estimated average cost per ride based on past usage
What? How are you "factoring in" these numbers, anyway?
Mark
Hw am I factoring. I am not, I am using the MTA's quoted estimate based on last years actual riding statistics adjusted for the new fare structure
The majority of Fun Pass users are out-of-towners?
Can I assume you have documentation to back up that claim? Because I doubt it.
Not every New Yorker commutes to work every day (if at all). For the rest of us, the Fun Pass was a very good -- and equitable -- way to run multiple errands.
The fare hike is a greater burden in absolute terms to those who ride three days per month on the Fun Pass than to those who ride 30 days per month on the 30-day unlimited.
Maybe people should do the 1966 and 1980 thing, walk to work and act like the entire transit system is on strike.
You should demand your money back.
The place for advocacy groups is to get issues they want see done taking care of in exchange for the fae increase
If you help to see something runs smoothly, thier is nothing to complain about when it fails
I pitched Gene my shorter trains more often preposal and asked what he was doing to improve the way OPTO is being implimented on the G
Nothing, because, such efforts eount lead to a photo opp
My view of the straphangrs campaign changed forever after our 30 min conversation
"From 1 AM Friday to 5 AM Monday, there is no J and M service at this station. Take an Uptown 4 or 5 train to Brooklyn Bridge-City-Hall for J and M connections.
There are THREE things wrong with this sign.
1. No service to Fulton or Broad Streets on Friday?
2. M trains start at Chambers street on weekends?
3. Following the directions of the sign from the downtown side, how will they say you must take the 4/5 train one stop Uptown then "double back" downtown on the Chambers St-bound J?
So the left wing radical organization group, the Suckhangers Campaign does not do anything to notify NYCT abouth this sign or other signs that are clearly wrong.
Nothing, because, such efforts eount lead to a photo opp
My view of the straphangrs campaign changed forever after our 30 min conversation <<<
Was the explanation of why the straphangers are doing nothing Gene's words, or your editorial spin?
Unless those were Gene's words, it appears that you believe the Straphangers are useless only because they do not agree with your views and priorities.
Tom
Anyone want to bet how much they'll try to up the fare next year if this rollback sticks?
I still think it will do more HARM than good if they went through with the rollback, the fare should of stayed constant (at $1.50) to begin with until it was shown that a fare hike was needed OR at least bring it up a quarter if it was that bad [RIGHT! ;-)].
The one I was thinking of was ALWAYS weird Al in MY book. Ya gotta deal with him in person to enjoy the full regalia. Heh.
http://www.inch.com/~era/2002_0420-0426.html Article title is "SEEKING INSIDE TRACE ON SUBWAY CONTRACT Firms' hired guns face $ 3B shootout - New York Daily News 04/22/2002" about 1/5 the way down the screen ...
http://www.inch.com/~era/2002_0518-0524.html and this one's entitled "On The Subway Deal Express Bids Are Still Out, But Transit Boss Was Kawasaki’s Guest New York Daily News 05/19/2002" and is similarly about 1/5 the way down the screen.
Wouldn't want to be accused of being "political" but it never ceases to amaze me how the same old, same old politicians are behind every woodpile when it comes to NYC TRANSIT. :(
Just wanted to add a comment - while the rest of us have to chow down begrudgingly on our FREEDOM FRIES, here's our "glad to be republicans" deliriously lining their pockets with FRENCH MONEY ... WORKING for those pesky "frogs" ... and somehow, it's OK ... you'd THINK with all the rhetoric about "screw France" the FIRST thing they would have done was ditch ALSTOM and hand the subway car contracts over to a Yankee doddle train builder. :(
But hey ... these ARE republican times ... do as I say, not as I do. And yes, the fix is still in ... sorry for going OFF-topic, but do read the previous in the thread and their links before smacking me upside the head. I'm *so* sick of HYPOCRACY (sic) ... what this deal cost would have ZEROED the state deficit right HERE ... :(
But AMERICAN jobs can go to hell ... after all, the French are supposedly our enemies! C'est LA GUERRE. :)
I go sleepies before I get even MORE pythed off ... but for all the NONSENSE back and forth here on subtalk about the damned fare and the strappies and all the rest, I sit in SHOCK AND AWE that nobody brought up anything that I just did. Geez. :(
Thanks for your patience with me, buddy! (and everyone else) ... I just can't BELIEVE that people are such knuckledraggers and are BUYING this qwap ...
Peace,
ANDEE
The site says BMT but doesn't say where.
I thought it was the Cypress Hills curve on the Jamaica line but the Cypress Hills curve is sharper than that.
Anyone know?
That looks like the 9th Av El curve at 110th St.
With the station position in the right background, I would suggest that it is not "Deadman's Curve" (also doesn't look quite high enough) which was at 9th and 110th, but that you are looking southwest at the curve at 8th and 110th, and that's 110th Street station.
There's nothing indicating that the shot was taken in Brooklyn.
DAMN! I just got a better look at the coaches and YES I can say with much certainty that it is a Manhattan Elevated scene. (Anyone who knows the subtle differences between BMT vs. IRT coaches will realize the shot is of IRT equipment).
Also, afaik, the third track never turned onto Jamaica Avenue. I think BMT man is on the right track, it doesn't look like any current line, so it may be the IRT in Manhattan.
Arti
Don't give me HOLDING LIGHTS to that.
(Don't hold me to that).
Mark
John
Thanks John,
I'll keep a look-out for more
Mark
If it was one already in service, it would have been medium grey (silver) with red and dark grey trim.
Then, this morning, on a train going towards Grosvenor, we are between Friendship Heights and Bethesda when I see a different operator than the one from yesterday doing some sort of paperwork. As we arrive at Bethesda, he realizes he needs to announce the station and does so hastily: "This is Brookland, doors open left side." Almost the same mistake made for the same station by different operators.
Once, I had an operator say "Next station, Takoma" as we were leaving Friendship Heights on a train to Wheaton (this was before Glenmont opened) but she did correct herself.
For those of you who don't know, Brookland and Takoma are above ground stations in Northeast DC. Tenleytown is in Northwest DC, Bethesda is in Maryland, both are fairly deep underground. The area around the stations surrounding them is not comprable. In other words, the operator must be very out of it to make such a mistake.
Reminds of the time I took Amtrak back from Pittsburgh to Washington. At Rockville, the stop right before Washington, he conductor said on the radio "OK. #30. Let's leave Cumberland." The engineer replied "OK. Leaving Cumberland for the second time."
Michael
Washington, DC
Mark
Mark
He probably says he lives in "Warshington" and loves the "peetzer" here.
Which is how my brother-in-law (born and raised in Baltimore, graduate of 16 years of Catholic education) says it. Nobody else in the family does.
On topic rail content: On the 8 line in Baltimore, there was a walking transfer point east and west bound, to the 3 bus on Wilkins Avenue. one block south of Frederick Road. The street is Catherine Street, which in Baltimorese is pronounced Cath-er-een Street. The stop is called as "Cath-er-een Street, walking transfer to the 3 on Wilkins Avenue."
Two blocks further east.
Frederick & Catherine is right after the Gwynns Falls Bridge.
Westside is at the bottom of the next hill.
1 more block to the Pratt/Frederick intersection.
John
I hope you ride the (2) or (3) between 96th St and 42nd St (or the reverse) because that speed run always cheers me up after a long, hard day at work. Today my (3) was zooming along at what seemed like unbelievable speeds. Always when I'm NOT at the RFW to look at the speedometer. Sigh.
Lot's of people have a one track mentality.The most common example is with the express train's.Everyone think's they'll save a huge amount of time if they took the express which is way beyond false.The other type of mentality is that they think that buses and train's can come at any time,like every 30 seconds or whatever and when I've heard them complain,they've sounded like a bus or train can run without anyone there to operate it.
And let me remind you about something else,there are over 300 Traffic Checker's,me being one of them,and it is all the data that we collect that the TA look's at to decide what kind of service should run on every single bus route and train line in the city so it's not their fault at all.So.....I know we all got freedom of speech and all that but please,don't say something like that which is false beyond belief and alway's take into consideration the several different reason's for delay's in bus and train service.I know I have and I never get pissed off about it anymore.We all just have to deal with it.
300 trafic checkers *$20k a year is $6 million dolars a year for a dinsaur system that is not very effective and prone to fraud
Most likely traffic checxkers make more then that
What a huge waiste of money and highly ineffecient and not very effective system
On the B3 bus drivers hide on stop away from the dispatcher to avoid being conted as early causing bus riders to miss thier transfer at nostrand ave. An basic autoamted tracking system would eliminated that.
Train traffic could be tracked at each and every station and select points in between by simple transponders that transmit line id, run number etc. this info would be stored in a database that give enough info to develope an accurate train on time statistic. A snapshot in time of one or two days is not suffice
In addtion the system would give dispatchers a real time view of where each and every train is allowing for compex what if senarios if a local is put express or skip a stop to make up time
On the bus side this could be done ustilizing GPS based system with wayside 802.11b transponders that nt only track the bus time at a place in time but allow dispatcher to move a bus up or down in the lineup to keep the bus line on time
In manhattan the MTA could use verizon 802.11b transpponders located onthier phone booths
Hold back on the swearing OK, its not good to do that ;-). Now back on topic, I've heard quite a few posters say that 2 service in the morning is pure crap; including TheGreatOne2k2. The MTA is a corrupted agency with greedy executives making money off of US riders.
i think pataki does a good enough job making himself bad on his own.
Is there a time limit? Normally, if there's a problem with an unlimited, the card must be postmarked by the following day. But this was a prescheduled problem, so does that rule apply?
Can I send all the cards in a single envelope or do I need to send each one separately?
Do I need to fill out the form in full? Aside from my name and address, do I need to fill out the form at all? Everything else is encoded on the MetroCards themselves.
Nowhere on the form am I asked how I want to be reimbursed (new unlimiteds, new PPR, etc.). Do I just jot down my preference on the back?
I may be in downtown Brooklyn tomorrow. Can I just drop off the envelope(s) in person?
Why don't the booths have envelopes and forms specifically for this purpose?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
You and the rest of us 2398984284934832 New Yorkers.
Wonder if 718-330-1234 would answer this Q.
--Mark
The ENTIRE CITY is in financial shambles and you're worried about $12.14 ??
Are you STRAPPED for Cash or something, G'berger??
Eesh.. F my comparison but you remind me a hella lot of a certain friend of mine.... stingy cheap!
(Not sayin' you are so, brah!!)
Me, too... I'm waiting out on my $10 Blank MC from last week... but ya
don't see me crying foul over the dough...
Yao. maybe yer post gave off the wrong impression....
2) I'd guess you could put up to 5 cards into each envelope.
3) I'd put down on the form that you want a refund. Otherwise I don't think they would know what you want with the cards.
4) Just write on the form what you want.
5) You could go down to Jay Street and drop it off in person. ButI doubt if you'll walk out with a refund or a replacement. If you can't get an instant refund with tokens, I doubt if you'll get one with a metrocard.
6) The forms inside the envelopes should be enough to indicate exactly what you want. You just have to write down exactly what you want.
Thanks for the advice.
2) I don't think you could put alot of cards in an envelope. 5 sounds like a fair number of cards you can turn in at one time. If you have more than 5 cards, get another envelope. Either at the same booth or at another booth.
3) If there is a problem with the card you should note where you bought it. Otherwise you're just asking for a refund.
4) You're welcome.
5&6) Just put down what you want done with the cards. Problem to be resolved? Refund for unused time? Whatever. Otherwise they might think someone is sending Jay St their discarded cards. It might be a person's protest. But you're looking for a refund.
Cards that were never started can be sent in at any time, but the folks at 370 Jay are recommending that they not be sent in for the time being, given yesterday's court ruling. (The woman I spoke to seemed to think the decision wouldn't be reversed.)
Any number of cards per envelope.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
When passing those layup tracks near Flushing, I spotted a train of R-62A's that had #2079 as the north motor. I'm pretty sure that is an R-62A single. I read over at Strappies yesterday there was a trainset with the sigles at the north end. I didn't believe it, and quickly came back to this board :)
Upon arrival at Flushing, I crossed over to the other platform and board south motor #9451. This car didn't seem to have a speedometer visible. So I fired up the SporTrak Map GPS receiver and watched this 7-Express hit a top speed of 42.6 MPH. Not terribly exciting unto itself, but it was a great ride! The sun was shining and the skies clear. We arrived back at Times Square at approx 8:10am.
So I completed a morning round trip to Flushing and back exclusivly making use of Redbirds. Sadly, I may never again be able to make that claim.
Other notes: I saw some redbirds with north destination signs reading Willets-Point, Shea Stadium and 111 St. What's up with that? Maybe it's normal but I'm not a regular #7 AM rider. This was my first time. Thanks for reading....
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
www.railfanwindow.com
During the rush, locals are put-in at 111 and taken out at Willets Point. At the end of the PM rush, the bottleneck at Willets as every other local reverses, every OTHER local goes in front of the express, and the express has to sit on the flyover at 111, is quite a sight to see. Check the #7 schedule-it shows these.
Willets Point though I have no idea why they'd have those signs. No AM trains that I can remember lay up from there.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Actually, express service resumed in August 1989, a mere 51 months later! When it did, Woodside was a local-only stop. But pressure from angry Woodside commuters, and people who had to ride all the way from QP to Junction if they mistakenly boarded an express made that a short-lived arrangement.
Then a few years later, it was discovered that the concrete viaduct along Queens Boulevard wasn't repaired correctly, so all trains ran local out to Woodside. That only lasted a few months.
The only advantage to all-local Flushing service was that if you were boarding an outbound train west of the Plaza during the PM rush, there was no confusion as to whether it was local or express. You just boarded the first train that came.
Of course, with the loss of the third track, any equipment failure led to horrible delays.
"Entitled" is subjective. Whether a refund would actually be issued is even more questionable.
restoring token sales
No, no more tokens.
Mark
I did a search in the file for the word "token" and it came up blank.
Therefore I suspect the judge did NOT mandate a return of tokens.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Good point. I used the Edit, Search function. So of course no words would come up, even if they were in the document.
Will the Express fare be rolled back .... NOPE
Alternative 1: LIRR, peak round trip now $17.50. May not even get a seat for that price.
Alternative 2: Drive to Manhattan. Probably $4-$5 gasoline plus $20-$30 to park and perhaps $7 in tolls unless I go out of the way to use a free bridge. Lots of potholes, horn-honking, and stop-and-go traffic. Valets tend to be reckless showoffs. (I hate valet parking.)
Alternative 3: Cab. Never tried it but it must cost lots more than $4 round trip from here.
Alternative 4: Car pool. Great if you have friends going to the same place but not possible for many folks for various reasons.
So I see the subway as a real bargain. For that matter, I can go all the way to the Bronx for the same $4. I just can't understand how anyone can complain about it being too expensive. It is, in fact, the cheapest alternative. Further, I know that lots of people in NYC don't even need cars because of the subway system. That saves them a bunch of money on car maintenance and insurance-- another thing to consider.
I know that the numbers may not be as stark for those taking local trips or trips outside Manhattan, but I just can't see how anyone can see subway fare as anything less than a huge bargain.
However, the LIRR/bus combo takes 45 minutes, total. Taking the bus/subway will require 1 hour, 45 minutes. That's if every one of my bus and four subway connections is PERFECT. Going westward from Queens Village, the trip is as follows:
Q-110 to Parsons/Archer
J/Z to B'way Junction
C to Franklin Avenue
Franklin Shuttle to Botanic Garden
2/5 to Church Ave.
I don't take the A to Nostrand then the B44 (the more obvious route) because that's another $2.
What I'm getting at, is the bus/subway combo is built around the boroughs to Manhattan travel pattern. Going from one outer borough to another without a car in a reasonable time, ain't so easy.
Peace,
Charon
ronc_c728@hotmail.com
I think the reason why 11th & 12th Aves do not have subway service is that there wasn't historically a large residential population along those avenues. At the time most of the subway was built, this was a manufacturing and shipping corridor.
The original plan for the north side tracks was to run across Canal (I don't know how far, but they weren't going to connect to the High Line). Stand at the rear end of the SB platform and look back. Broadway expresses, according to this plan, would continue south to City Hall lower level and on to Cortlandt; locals would terminate at the upper level island platform at City Hall.
http://www.anywho.com, use the "reverse lookup" feature on the phone number he posted.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Michael
Washington, DC
Peace,
Charon
ronc_c728@hotmail.com
Please Eamil me at Smugglerbuddy@aol.com
2 Webmasters can nycsubway.org use your LIRR pics for its LIRR section?
Please Eamil me at Smugglerbuddy@aol.com
E-mail me if you want their exact location and/or pictures
Mark
---Chapter 11 Choo choo
I recall Rudy was quick to have it whisked away to a undisclosed
site.... and the Cash Vault was NEVER seen nor heard of again.
City need Cash?
Where Rudy's Cash Bunker at??
Keeping cash in a vault is pretty stupid anyway.
The vault was under WTC 6 and contained gold owned by a number of banks. I believe the Bank of Nova Scotia had the largest share. The vault survived the attacks reasonably well and workers removed the gold some weeks later.
..... to where?
Was it a legit NYC possession or did the Bank of NS take claim to it?
So get soem more photos of the old riders, it looks like they are being replased with newer ones.
Robert
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Let's not forget rainy weather !
Bill "Newkirk"
The 12s, 14s, and 15s, look pretty worn.
-Stef
Good luck!
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
That idea is ... priceless :)
Average LIRR monthly commuter rail ticket: $240
30 Unlimited Ride Metrocard: $70
Knowing that the MTA has ripped you off in this fare hike: PRICELESS
Metrocard 1-Day Pass: $7
30 Unlimited Ride Metrocard: $70
Knowing that the MTA cooks books with appeal: PRICELESS
It is part of mastercards camapaign to premote new ways for cardholders to use mastercard and to change habits
Charging transit fare anf buying movie tickets are two relativly new places to use mastercard
mastercard and visa make thier money on transaction fees it charges merchants. The banks who issue the cards lend the money and take most of the interest proceeds
If you look at the link, under the metrocard logo it says "leave your car at home and take the mta to the movies"
Such promotionsa are called co-op marketing programs which is paid for by mastervard and other sponsorts designed to change peoples habits about using thier mastercard benaded credit card ot debit card
Mastervard makes 2.5-6.5 cents per tranaction, The individul banks who issue the credit cards keep the interest if one does not pay
It's smart marketing. Any business or organization looking for customers wants to hook up with credit cards. Master Card and VISA offer promotion and advertising that MTA doesn't have to develop on its own; the credit card issuers get access to millions of commuters and a chance to earn that 2% transaction fee in a very high volume transaction stream (more like taking your cut out of a fire hose). And MTA gets more stable revenue. The customer (the rider) gets MetroCard purchases listed on a monthly statement, which is great for budgeting and tax return purposes.
The next logical step is a subscription (something I wrote to them about, actually). That's where the MetroCard loks like EZ-Pass. When you use it up, your Master Card is automatically charged for another one and MTA mails it to you or you pick it up from your closest vending machione, which already knows you paid for it (just like prepaid airline or Amtrak tickets).
You like to rail at MTA's incompetence, but they are being very competent here, and providing great opportunities for customer convenience to boot.
I apologize on this board for such a mistake about assuming the MTA is wrong. At least when I am in the wrong, I own up to it.
A major cost savings for the MTA plus mastercard flips the bill for the premotion
also it encourages movie goes who use loews website to take public transit
The more people buy with mastercard the more mastercard makes
The more trhe MTA saves on staion agents
the fewer maintance calls to mvm's to add more change or empty bill holders
As for the subscription metrocards. It is time they introduce them to the general public. They already have them set up for auot refiling via checking or credit card account for seniors and the disabled. One caveat is that if you subscribe tot he service you can not add money at a MVM or booth
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Of which, I LOVE to see the unsuspecting looks on merchants'
faces when I hand them my MLB MASTERCARD.... METS, of course!!
I wanna win a roll sign or a rare collectible Metrocard ! Then I'm interested.
Bill "Newkirk"
What good is it?
"Taxes are the sole responsibility of the winner."
Enough said!
The tax laws associated with this type of winnings are fundamentally unchanged.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The next time you want to use govenment agancies as job mills(ex: not closing tooken boothss, keeping two man crews) you will know why the educated middle class is discusted with the blantant job protectionism that the TWU is trying to orcostrate
If we did not waste so much money on unneeded items, taxes would not be so high
Single cash fare: $2
Enjoying a ride on a Redbird: priceless
I thought there would be a connection to Second Avenue from the 63rd street line. I know there is provision for such a connection in the tunnel.
There are two proposed connections between Second Avenue and the 63rd Street line.
One connection is between the northern part of Second Avenue and 63rd Street. The current SAS plan has service operating over this connection to route trains between the Upper East Side and the Broadway BMT line.
The other connection is between the southern part of Second Avenue and Queens. This connection was added to the plan after concerns that Queens would not benefit from the project were raised. However, although the plan includes a connection, it does not propose any regular service be operated over a Second Avenue-Queens route.
Mark
This is not my understanding. A connection from Queens Blvd to the southbound SAS has been part of the design for decades. When the 63rd St tunnel was built, bellmouths were included for such a connection. At the time, there were also plans to build a QB "super express," which was never done. Without it, QB is saturated, and no service could be routed onto 2nd Ave without taking away from some other route.
Some people think that the V should go to 2nd Ave, but the V is rumored to be the future Culver Express. Anyhow, it'll be at least a decade before any QB trains could be routed down 2nd Ave.
If it ever comes into existence :0). All jokes aside though, the V should NOT run via 2 Av it should stay on 6 Av and run with the F into Brooklyn whenever it is possible to do so.
That would permit use of the excess 63rd St. tunnel capacity without having to share any trackage with the Queens Blvd. lines. But given the costs and the timetable for the SAS as it is, I wouldn't count on any add-ons that cost a whole lot of money (and even the LGA extension off the N/W terminal seems to have been put on hold for now).
Hey, look at that -- that's exactly what the V does now!
Right now, the plans are for a non-revenue connection.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
This may destroy your happiness at 42/6 going sb, but I still feel they should combine the M with the V. At least then the V would be going somewhere both southbound and northbound.
Funny you should mention that, because the first time I saw a V train was back in '95 (I think) around the time of the Willy-B accident. The train was an R-42 consist, sitting in Fresh Pond Yard, signed as an orange (V). This was in the days when I was always trying to figure out the mysteries of the subway (before I found this site) and this became one of them: what on earth is a (V) train? I had imagined some kind of Queensbridge-6th Avenue Super Express that went down the M line up to Metropolitan Ave. (Ironically, I didn't even know about the Chrystie St Connection at the time, I just guessed there was some kind of connection somewhere, and I had no idea there was supposed to be a Queens super-express line either.)
Seriously, though, they should send the M uptown instead of downtown; it would be used alot more. The change from J to the Q at Canal is far more convenient than the M to Downtown Brooklyn. It would also be a better terminus for the "V" train than 2nd Ave. The only issue would be running 480' trains on Queens Blvd which is a no-no. They would have to run 600' R-32/A consists and close the last 2 cars at Bway-Lafyette. In the event of poor announcements or pax not paying attention, the train could be held at Essex while the J passes on the middle track, so people can move forward. However I don't know if there may be some rule against the C/R being at the 8/9 car cab, so that may not be possible, and plus Metro Ave may not be long enough to hold a 600' train (maybe send the J up the V and the M down the J instead? I'm sure Archer can hold a 600' train).
This is a non-issue. The V has few enough passengers so that 480 foot cars are sufficient.
No. The ridership on the V exceeds that on the M and they're travelling in opposite directions (they won't be on the trains at the same time). In addition, the V runs more TPH than the J,M and Z combined.
The V runs 18 TPH?
Well in that case I must have confused it with the V simply has more TPH then the M or J/Z and that the V can fit over the Williamsburg Bridge without the need to diminish J, M or Z service.
Talk about sideswipe ;-)
I doubt that consist would clear the switches at Metropolitan Avenue.
Look at it like this:
When 2nd av is complete, it won't really add ridership to QB, right? So then anyone wanting to come from QB onto 2nd av would be doing so from existing trains. Split the QB express 3 ways instead of 2.
That sounds easy; in practice, it's really not. The two QB expresses, the E and F trains, are among the most packed routes in the system. If those trains were split 3 ways, then there would be 33% fewer trains for E/F riders to reach 6th/8th Avenues. 2nd Ave is pretty far away from 6th/8th, so it's not really an acceptable substitute. The E is the only QB train that goes to 8th Ave, which is a LONG distance from 2nd. The F continues to Brooklyn, so therefore there'd also be a service reduction along the Culver line.
Hence, without building more capacity along QB, it is not possible to send any QB trains to 2nd Ave without canibalizing service elsewhere. While most people agree that the SAS is needed, I doubt there'd be many who advocate reducing service elsewhere to provide it.
It's far enough in the future (at least 10-12 years) that anything could happen, but the current betting is that the V will become the Culver Express, in which case it won't run on 2nd Ave. Making the V a Culver Express will turn it into a very useful route. If the Culver Express doesn't happen for some reason, then I agree 2nd Ave would be a good home for the V.
I also see the Q trains running north from 57/7. Making a stop at 63/Lexington and running north to 125 St or wherever the north terminal is.
No great foresight required for that, since it's precisely what the current design proposal on the MTA website says.
If the SAS is connected to the Manhattan Bridge I see the W trains running north to 125 St.
There is no proposal—and AFAIK, has never been—to connect the SAS to the Manhattan Bridge.
That's what the map says, but no actual track connection is included in the proposed design. In fact, because the cross-platform transfer at Grand St has been dropped, I don't think it will even be physically possible.
(That's what the map says, but no actual track connection is included in the proposed design. In fact, because the cross-platform
transfer at Grand St has been dropped, I don't think it will even be physically possible.)
That's a loss, G.O. wise.
Looks like the SAS is connecting with the D line.
Or at least transfering to it at Grand Street.
It's a pedestrian transfer, not a track connection.
The "V" should become the Culver local and terminate at Church. The F is the extended train.
The report in a couple of papers was that the V would be the Culver express, and it makes sense. Undoubtedly the express wouldn't run 24/7, and the V is already a part-time train in Queens and Manhattan. That way, anyone who took an F in Brooklyn would always know they were getting a local. It's a lot simpler than a pattern where a route's behavior changes with the time of day (although there are many of those already). Also, it would entail no change to the F, just the addition of a new service.
> a much more confusing pattern whereby sometimes the F ends at Church, and other times at Coney Island.
Again, if the above is true, you can't turn 2 locals at Church. One of the locals must go on far south.
BTW, if it's doable I don't think it's too confusing. The B, J, M among others, have shorter runs depending on the time of the day or day of the week. And Brighton had even more complicated operations. The D used to turn at Brighton Beach when running express and at Stillwell when running local off-peak. Then the Q became the express while the D became permanent local to CI making it much less complicated. The current Q/Q situation should be over when the bridge reopens and it will be Q local, B express.
SubTalk has gone over that before. The report was complete fiction, planted by somebody for some reason other than reporting news.
Many E and V riders get off at 53rd and Lex, either to work locations nearby or to switch to the Lex. Those riders would be happy to take a 2nd Ave train.
Instead of 10 Vs, 15 Fs, and 15 Es, you could have 6 Vs, 12 Fs, 12 Es, 6 2 Ave QB expresses, and 6 2 Av QB locals.
Besides, by 2015, QB will have CBTC and will handle 36-40 tph on each track.
Ok and then you'll have to reduce E and F service to make this possible, which means E's and F's returns to dangerously crowded levels [over 100% capacity] not good. However if the never built express track were constructed then that's a different story then you could squeeze 3 express lines on QB.
Well, DUH! It ain't the Steinway Street Subway. It's the 2nd Avenue Subway!
Having lived in both in Queens, using the Queens Blvd. IND, and on the Upper East Side, using the Lex IRT, I gotta tell ya: The 2nd Av. subway is needed more. Besides, Queens already got their new subway: the 63rd Street Connector.
But the best we can hope for is that the MTA will have to give more accurate assessments, or at least reveal all the sources of their assumptions in the future.
A major problem is that neither the suit nor the ruling says that the overall numbers are wrong--just that the same numbers were selectively assigned in such a way as to produce a political effect to get the result the MTA wanted.
What we then face, if the overall number is accurate, is that the MTA will come back in 2004 and hit us with a bigger and less attractive increase--i.e., suppose they go across the board, and we get a $1.75 fare, but a $90 monthly MC (for example)?
If the MTA loses their appeal, they have to spend big bucks to roll back the fare as they stated. Now aside from blaming them for no disclosure and cheating the public, where is this fare roll back money going to come from ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I agree. The Strappies need to be put in their place. No one elected them to represent anyone. Hopefully a successful appeal will end this insanity and the TA can get back to business.
A few days ago David Davies (no, I am not making this name up) was out railfanning CSX's RFP Sub when a passing train let loose a blast of hot carbon from its stack and set the surrounding brush on fire. Mr. Davies spotted the fire and quickly went to a nearby residence and called CSX and the fire department. Traffic was halted while the fire was put out.
Just another example of how railfans are out there every day keeping the system safe from equipment defects, vandals, fires and terrorism.
Of course not! We all know Dave Davies is the guitarist for the Kinks.
Was wondering if it was like an indie band or old. Some indie bands put out some great songs so I'm always interested when I hear of a new one.
But I know nothing of old bands, so I can never tell if a band is indie or old by the name.
One of the songs on their 1968 album "The Village Green Preservation Society" was called "Last of the Steam Powered Trains."
Whew, there's our mandatory train content. I was beginning to worry that David was involved in an off topic thread. :-)
Who??? The Kinks??? :-)
Tom
Simon
Swindon UK
--Mark
I don't know the area, but I wouldn't call a brush fire in itself minor. It was minor in this case, but quite a few of the recent forest fires started out as 'minor' brush fires. Had it been an area with a lot of brush and other types of fuel, it could have gotten 'major' and cost CSX money in equipment damages (rails, etc) as well as endangered surrounding homes.
B- Weekdays: West End, 4th Ave Express, bypass Dekalb, 6th Ave Express, CPW local to 145 (middays) or BPB (rush hours), all service to/from 145th st until 11 PM
Nights: same as above, but West End/4th Ave local, stopping at Dekalb and extended to 205th st when D is not running
Weekends: Same as night service, but West End Local/4th Ave Express, Dekalb bypass, 6th Ave express, CPW and Concourse local to 205th
D-Weekdays, and evenings to 11:30 PM: Brighton Express, 6th Ave Express, CPW Express, Concourse Local, all service to 205th st (the B goes to 205 when D is not running.) No service nights and weekends, use B for Bronx and Q for Brooklyn service.
N-All times, 57/7 to 86th st (Stillwell in May, 2004), same service patterns as original MTA proposal. Shuttle service nights in Brooklyn, use B for 4th Ave local service and Q for Montague service. The Q now goes to Astoria at all times (historical again)
Q-Extended to Astoria 24/7, express in Manhattan (Canal-42nd st) all times, Q goes via bridge when N is running, via. tunnel late nights, and local Canal-57 on weekends (still via. Bridge)
M, R and W proposals remain unchanged.
Comments?
Railfans they are not. They will base their decisions based on what they think (not what we think)is the best service for the rider.
Go ahead and speak your mind but IMHO you are wasting your breath.
And besides that, the assignment of letters to routes has changed many times over the years. Just look at the summary on the FAQ at nycsubway.org. When people refer to the historical associations, they are merely referring to whatever service pattern they happen to have grown up with, even if some other pattern predated it.
As for the B and D part: Why not state it more simply? D stays on Brighton, running rush, days, and evenings, 205th to Brighton Beach. B stays on West End and runs 24/7: to Bedford Park (rush), to 145th (days, evenings), and to 205th (nights, weekends).
I'm glad that you'll be attending. Go with a simple, clear-cut modification, bolstered by visual aids if possible. Good luck!
Plus, your plan actually changes history anyway. You're taking a line that has not been associated with Concourse in all of its existence (the B) up until 1998 and you are now making that the night service over the D which has been there all of its life. Either way, strict history can't rule the system. Otherwise the format of the routing patterns would be ridiculous.
I can imagine standing at Dekalb Av. on a weekend, with 3 4th Av. services coming in, waiting until a Brighton train finally comes in.....
MTA....going the other way.... :-)
Because of the way the lines were built in the 19th century. A lot of the subway system is based on opportunistic use of previously built rail lines.
If they hadn't been "free" in the sense of the rail and ROW already being there, there would be no subway service at all on the Dyre, the Sea Beach, and either Rockaway line. All 4 of these lines get service disproportionate to their population because they could be opportunistically incorporated into the system. Do you propose that they should all be shut down? If not, well then as long as they exist, they are going to get "unfairly" high levels of service.
As for my modification, I'd run the Sea Beach through the tunnel nights and weekends. I would provide 12 tph the full length of the BMT Broadway line, and provide balanced loading on the Manny B with one service on each side.
Hope the engineers who say balanced loading is bunk, and Sea Beach Fred, don't see this and flame me again.
Even 10 Brighton trains and 18 4th Ave trains would give 4th Ave an "unfair" amount of extra service. But that's life.
As for my modification, I'd run the Sea Beach through the tunnel nights and weekends. I would provide 12 tph the full length of the BMT Broadway line, and provide balanced loading on the Manny B with one service on each side.
Hope the engineers who say balanced loading is bunk, and Sea Beach Fred, don't see this and flame me again.
Responding to a posting by someone who does think balanced loading is bunk is not the best way to keep a low profile. But I don't have anything new to say on the subject, so I'll keep quiet.
The Brighton line needs 2 lines on Saturday, not really needed on Sunday. And what's gonna happen when the new Coney Island opens for business next summer?
And how many people listen to Mr. Greenberger if there is only a 8 minute difference between taking a Bridge train (pre 4/27/03)) over a tunnel train. As if you can get a seat on a "climate-controlled" tunnel train.
Basically your making the current B proposal except it is the D, now the D has been the full time line to Concourse its entire life and then 6 Av & Concourse riders loses the CPW express on weekends [although it will help C service], with the MTA's plan at least the D will be express in Manhatan north of 59 St. I'm mixed on this one; of course I'd like the pre 7/01 pattern to return :-) but its not my choice to do so.
Dave can update his page as needed.
Deliveries:
1156-1160 (April 16), 1161-1165 (April 19), 1166-1170 (April 22), 1176-1180 (April 24), 1171-1175 (April 26) 6891-6895 (April 29), 6921-25 (May 12)
As of 05/13:
1156-60, 1186-90 Doing Initial Burn Testing
1166-70 Burn Testing Dyre Av Test Track
1171-80 Burn Testing for 4 Service
6876-85 to enter service on the 5, on or about 05/14/03
1141-45, 1151-55 enter service on the 4 as Trainset #10
As 6876-85 enter service on the 5, 7121-30 will be transferred to the 4 effective immeediately, which would make them Trainset #11.
As of last night, they were still at Unionport Yard awaiting transfer.
That's all for now!
-Stef
Congrats to all.
So after this, I'm guessing the next order will be for the replacement of the R62/A, which should be done for in the next 15 or 20 so years. Hmm, I wonder how they'll be?
http://www.mta.info/mta/communications/hearing-0612.htm
Unfortunately, it's wrong. It says: "Q service would be replaced by B in Brooklyn and N in Manhattan." The actual proposal, I believe, is supposed to say that the Q will be the Brighton local. The statement on the website must be incorrect, because no other train is described as being the Brighton local. The B is described as being the Brighton express, operating weekdays from 6am to 11pm.
MTA screws up again.
What? Doesn't this make the , the only Fourth Ave. local during the day? Wow... Talk about service cuts.
With the N going back to bridge, W terminating at Whitehall, M at Chambers, travelling from lower Manhattan to 4th Ave. stations could take longer than one wishes. I remember the short period when both sides of the Manny Brdige were open, the R was the only local on BMT Broadway line in Manhattan. Boy, that sucked! to say the least. I used to say that N/R stands for "Not Running" or Never/Rare. Just don't get me started about what the F stood for!:-)
When the bridge reopened, somebody conveniently forgot to restore midday M service to 9th Avenue. The current restoration of service is explicitly temporary.
I agree, it makes travel to 4th Avenue local stations quite onerous.
It isn't just 4th Avenue local that is affected. Lawrence and Court Street also face a service cut, as well as Brooklyn service to Lower Manhattan. Isn't the City trying to promote Downtown Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan? I can think of a couple of BIDs (the Downtown Alliance and the Metrotech BID) that have an interest in increased midday R service.
While it's unfortunate that 4th Ave local stations will see a cut in service, can they really complain as long as they get 8 minute headways middays? There are many quite busy stations in the city (including 5 stations on the F and 2 on the E in Manhattan) that only get 8 minute headways midday. And on weekends there are 3 more F and E stations in Manhattan with 8 minute headways.
I don't think it coincided with the other 1995 service cuts (Dean Street closure, late night 3 shuttle train elimination, etc.).
[...]
service would be replaced by in Brooklyn and in Manhattan.
I see nothing wrong here. There's no mention of the circle-Q because the proposal keeps it the same, so it doesn't belong under the "Proposed Subway Changes" heading.
I think this project is pretty significant, IMO. Manhattan has Times Square, Brooklyn has Stillwell Avenue and we in Queens have this.
Not only are they PROVEN GUILTY (by Hevesi's investigation)
but they STILL seek public sympathy and consideration?
Didn't one of the topdog execs drive around in THREE SUV-Hummers or somethin???
Maybe the SUV they were driving has Firestone tires that can blow out in an instant. Then these jerks can ACTUALLY ride the subway for the first time in decades.
No, that was the former head of the TWU.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Did he happen to take his city-paid SUV schlop WITH him??
The current head has a $50k chevy SUV plus a driver
YOUR UNION DOLLARS AT WORK!!!!!
I guess he fooled you because it is my guess that you never read the actuall audit or the mta's responce to the audit.
No, that's not true. Hevesi's "audit" was a politially motivated action which proves absolutley nothing. I'm amazed that so many people reguard this "audit" as an honest assesment.
Alan Hevesi is a Democratic hack. Nothing he says can be taken at face value.
David
thier was no criminal activity in the whole fare raise issue. In fact the appeal will show that they follwed all requirements. These lower court judges depend on the democratic machine to get re-elected
The MTA had very good reasons to move the money to out years in the budget: they have been starved for capital and operating funds since the 1990s by Giuliani and Pataki. MTA passengers pay a higher percentage of operating costs that just anout every transit system in the US, and a lot of this is debt service.
What the MTA did wrong is not come clean about this all along. Why? Because their master would have looked bad.
Now, it is in the hands of the Appellate Division. I don't expect the ruling to hold in the long-run, politics being what it is, but it is a victory to have gotten this far. Heads will roll, and the truth will be told.
In Maryland, we got rid of Parris Gendenning, a first class sleeze if there ever was one. Since he served two consecutive terms as gov, so no third. When I say sleeze, I mean sleeze. Political and personal.
E-mail me if you want a more detailed report, esp. personal.
And BSM has Parris' sworn enemy, Comptroller (and former Governor) William Donald Schaefer on our Board.
Chapter 1
It's Better to Look Good Doing Nothing Than To Look Bad Doing Something
Guide For Those Seeking Or Holding Statewide Office, Northeastern Industrial States, New York State Gubernatorial:
Memorize and regurgitate this nifty phrase, which should be very easy, since they it is only 3 words: "Job Killing Taxes." Offer no solutions to economic crisis. Stand for nothing. Take no position on MTA fare issue, an agency which you control. In fact, appear in public and/or speak as little as possible, unless there is an attack on New York City, in which case be sure to insert yourself into every photo possible and in front of every microphone you see. Participate in sham debate. Speak words, but say nothing. After all, you harbor national political ambitions, don't you? Stand up to your "spendthrift" legislature, including those in your own party. Even if they override your veto, you look like a hero to the NeoCon(Artist)s controlling the national party.
Guide For Those Seeking Or Holding National Office:
Memorize and regurgitate these nifty phrases, which should be very easy, since they are usually no more than 3 words each: "Compassionate Conservative," "Reformer With Results," "I'm a Uniter, not a Divider." Talk a lot about, but do not present solutions for, issues important to "working people, seniors, immigrants and the white middle class." Insist you will ease their pain, but for God's sake don't mention anything specific for which you might be held accountable later. Work the word "God" or "Christian" into rehetoric at every opportunity. Buy a ranch and a pair of boots, speak with a friendly drawl, and make a cute sign reading "Western White House" to show on TV when you are spoon-feeding the press there. Say the rules apply to everyone, exept when you or your supporters break the rules, in which case insist that those were bad rules in need of breaking anyway. If given a choice between a) the difficult task of actually finding creative and effectual ways of countering the threat of terrorism and bringing terrorists to justice or b) looking like you are fighting terrorism in TV's greatest reality shows, "Operation Iraqi Freedom" and "Presidential Fighter Pilot," choose 'b'. Remember, most Americans, like yourself, do not have the inclination or experience to see any issue in terms other than black-and-white. But you can help! Make some spiffy color-coded Terror Alert warning charts. They're much less expensive and distasteful than reforming international policy.
Have 1,000,000 times more money than the average working class Joe or Jane. Be a non-smoker and find any way possible for people to quit smoking. Encourage those who do smoke to use the 'net or buy untaxed cigs off the street, and make them pay if they buy smokes at a store. Tell the riding public to go buy a bike next time there is a transit strike threat. Don't tell the entire public where you will be going on weekend jaunts in case you decide not to come back. Call you mother often and ask her how is the NYPD detail treating her. Purchase a chainsaw and use it on the entire Budget office. When passing by any firehouse, put that firehouse you saw on the chopping block, or use that chainsaw, you bought for the budget office, on the fireshouse. Tell New Yorkers that 3-1-1 does not rhyme in a rap song with "9-1-1, I saw a Drive-By". Ignore the press and the polls when your popularity is now at the Fresh Kills Landfill. Tell property owners to GO TO HELL, and give them a list of moving companies upon request. If property owners refuse to pay the new higher property taxes, sic. them with Pit bulls from the Center of Animal Care and Control. Use pink card decks to lay-off people in a game, anyone with a Joker gets to stay, all other cards in the deck signal the workers, YOU ARE CANNED.
All the wonderful capital gains tax money from the 90s is gone. The rich just aren't making millions of dollars in capital gains any more, and being taxed on their gains at a nice 6.8% NYS rate and 3.6% NYC rate. Medicaid costs are up.
What are the options: raise taxes, cut services, make public employees work harder, reduce subsidies for transit and other services so that usage fees have to cover more of the cost.
Any mayor (Bloomberg, Green, Ferrer, Giuliani) would implement a combination of all 4. The only difference would be in how they sell it to the public and the public employees (which Bloomberg has done a terrible job of).
The amazing thing is that Pataki still claims it can all be done without raising taxes.
"The next big improvement for riders would be the Second Avenue subway but that's expected to take about 16 years of building and cost $12.6 billion dollars. Construction begins in 2004."
This makes it appear that NO benefits will be had from the Second Avenue Subway until at LEAST 2020. If that's true, it is unlikely to gain support.
My understanding is that the SAS will be built in sections, with the first few stations coming on line quickly. True? If it isn't, it should be -- the first stations should open by 2009, certainly by the time ESA is schedule to open. It if is, the TA should say so -- that partial relief on the Lex will be provided beginning in year X, with a completion schedule by section presented for the line.
The first portion to be constructed will surely be the "stubway" (125th to 63rd), because ESA can't open without it. Also, the 63rd St tunnel will be the SAS's only track connection to the rest of the system, and you need to have a way to move trains on and off the line.
Looking at the track diagrams included in the SDEIS, it appears that 42nd St, 14th St, and Chatham Sq could all be temporary terminals. So once the stubway has been built, the line could open in several stages before finally reaching Hanover Sq.
"If they were smart, they would still include a track connection at Grand St., whichever alignment they choose...."
No version of the SAS design has ever proposed such a connection, and now that the cross-platform transfer at Grand St has been rejected, it seems to be definitely precluded.
"With all the demands not to end up with a stubway, (say if money runs out or something) they may be pressured to build the lower portion first to ensure the public that will not happen."
There naturally will be some skepticism, but the upper portion of the SAS provides the greatest benefits, and it is also easier to build. Once you get below 63rd St, the line starts threading its way through denser infrastructure, and complex pedestrian transfers need to be built where it crosses other lines.
please ....please relay this message if you see a question from him online! Thank you
Sorry for doing this on such an important site for train buffs, but it's my only chance. I know he'll be on soon
ANNIE
thank you
NO NO NO NO!!!!!!
This is simply untrue. The only thing behind the walls at Grand is dirt.
Repeat, there will be no track connection between the SAS and the Chrystie line under any design now being considered, nor as far as I can tell was there such a connection in the 1970s design.
Some capital money is already slated for construction in 2004, but the next capital plan will be needed to complete phase 1. Phases 2 & 3 got rolled together, meaning they will be working on both sections simultaneously, but they think both should be finished at roughly the same time. If one finishes early (ha!), maybe that section can be opened before the other section.
Bry
You can see a Tube map in the pilot. Second Ave isn't built in 3000.
Too long. What would it take to advance 96th to 125th to 2009 or 2010, other than money?
Move the entire East Side to the Sunbelt?
Now if you spent 10x as much money, you could get a crew for every 3rd or so block and do massive parallel digging, but do you really want to spend $120 billion?
(You have a combo of cut & cover (requiring utility replacement) and mining (TBM). This kind of stuff just doesn't go fast. Look at the "Big Dig" in Boston. This is a comparable project.)
The cut and cover is in one place, and TBM another. There is no reason they cannot go on simultaneously. If the TBM is starting out from the north, the tunnel from 96th to 86th before will have to be finished before the tunnel from 86th to 63rd. If the TBM is starting from 63rd north, they the TA will require two TBMs, which makes no sense.
Once the tunnel is dug and the rock is removed, there is no reason not to work 24/7 underground. The 1/9 shows what is possible with all out effort. The subway could be running one year after the digging is finished.
After that, the TBM could just crunch along toward 14th Street, with rock removed at night by work train via the Broadway Line and the Montigue Tunnel indefinately, as in the 3rd Water Tunnel. But the upper half of the line needs to open ASAP.
As well as offering incentives for early completion, the MTA should find a way to motivate and inspire those involved in construction. In fact, inspire the whole city as well. That may be why ground breaking is set to begin at the climax of the subway centennial.
Early 20th Century labour and safety laws? :-P
Here's what I think he meant; I could be wrong...
Phase 1 (63/Lex-84/2nd) ~ 2009
Phase 2 (84/2nd-125/Lex) ~ 2015
Phase 3 (14/2nd-72/2nd and 63/RI) ~ 2015
Phase 4 (Hanover Sq-Houston/2nd) ~ 2019
The order makes sense because by opening 63 to 84 first, the Q can be sent there immediately. However, if 84 doesn't have the capacity to turn 2 routes, it doesn't make sense to jumble phases 2/3 together, since only service north of 63rd on the Q will be possible, or else a transversal T service that is 3x as useless than the Rockaway Park Shuttle, as it would go nowhere and transfer to nothing. Unless, of course, they plan on temporarily sending the V down 2nd Ave until they reach 125th.
The numbers don't seem to add up, though, because it takes 5 years to complete 2 stations, yet only 6 years to complete 8.
Actually, the 72nd and 86th Street stations would offload the Lex more than any other two stations, as 68th and 86th are the two non-CBD stations with most ridership on the Lex. Still, to really do the job they need to get a few more stations open by the end of the next capital plan, if they are fortunate enough to start construction.
Another feature of the 1st 2 stations is to show the new architechture (yeah, that's spelled wrong but I'm too tired to get my dictionary). The new arch (cheating!) is to be an open mezz/platform design; looks pretty cool in the "conceptual" drawings. Get'em exicted soon, they'll let you build the rest, I guess? (If you build it, they will pay the fare?)
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Just let me know; I'm pretty sure I can prove I'm on the project.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
My crap-o-matic work laptop doesn't want to let me email you, so I'll do it tomorrow from my less-crap-o-matic desktop system. Won't be as great as a railfan trip, but you should get a kick out of the conceptual drawings.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
...offices? Exchange Place, Monday...
Umm, you guys are working out of New Jersey? I would have thought all the work would have been kept across the river.
Do you mind if I ask which part of the project you're working on? And if, in a fit of extreme stupidity, I ask if any engineering firms working on the SAS are looking for civil engineering College Interns/Coop students?
It's a whole bunch of crap: centralized PA system, Customer Info Screens (ie "5 minutes to next train" displays), wireless tablets for customer service agents, mech & electrical supervisory systems, smart CCTV, CBTC, advanced LAN tech (which I'm in charge of), correlation systems for events, possible OPTO, and probably I few things I'm missing.
Sounds like massive, expensive, overkill -- stuff that should be put in later as funds become available. PA/CIS is going systemwide over the next decade unless money runs out, so that makes sense. As for the rest, speed are cost are of the essense. OPTO won't make sense until the full length line is built, because the the BMT Bwy line can't take it for a long time.
Need to cut the gold plating, here and on ESA. Just hook the LIRR into the existing GCT and save $2 billion. Are the engineers financially crazy? We'll end up with nothing!
Do you seriously believe that all this is a significant part of the cost of the line? I don't think so.
Better to do it right the first time than to open a line that's just as primitive as the rest of the subway.
Yessir.
On the other hand, up until very recently, I was opposed to the Stubway and very much against building anything other than completely building a proper trunk. Now, I think that stance is a bit too harsh.
Now, I think that digging should begin at 63rd and continue north, building stations at appropriate distances (often not where specified in the SDEIS) and preferrably leaving room for four tracks. Stations should open and service should begin as the line is built. Include only the work that would be done during the period of any capital plan in each periodic capital budget. Maybe we'll never be able to make it to 125th without giving up again, but at least we'd have a few faces to blame for stopping the project in that case, and most importantly, _something_ would be built. I'm thinking of this stage as less of a Second Avenue subway and more of a manageable but very useful extension of the "Q."
I'm soliciting input on this. I realize that at this stage, any criticism of the SDEIS might be just another nail in the coffin, but I don't think that the SDEIS proposal lends itself to being split into bite-sized, relatively inexpensive sections. I'm considering turning this into a comment of record (after deciding to nix the pure "why-this-sucks" letter), so please slap me down or inflate my ego as appropriate.
Mark
We in New York City have been so screwed for so long that if we had any sense we'd be thrilled with 72nd alone.
Then in 2020 when everything is open there might be some new ideas on the books: 125th Street Crosstown, Pelham Line recapture or New Third Avenue line, Queens bypass, Governor's Island/Red Hook access.
Both could happen if we quit being so myopic.
Mark
Arti
Well, that's part of the rationale behind building smaller chunks at once. I agree that one option would need to be chosen as "primary" in order for any project to succeed, but intelligent building leaves room for both. Even the SDEIS plan leaves the possibility open.
Wait a sec. You said earlier that Pelham-Second Avenue is the only way to relieve the Lexington express, but the Pelham line is the Lexington local. What am I missing?
Mark
However, if the SAS goes north and captures the Lex local outright, then the Lex express will not fill up at 125th. Express load levels should be much lower all down the line. I'd like to see the numbers for this option --they must have been crunched. But it's not easy getting info out of the team.
So, let's play devil's advocate for a minute if you don't mind...
Inconveniencing Bronx riders by providing them with fewer options for the benefit of Manhattan riders is considered a good thing? If that's the case, why not save the billion and stub-end the line at 125th and Second?
And to what end? You've just gotten the Pelham riders off of Lexington, and with them, eliminated the local. Now, make either the Woodlawn or Dyre trains the locals, and you're pretty much right back where you've started, with riders preferring the express within Manhattan.
Pelham riders who really wanted Lexington get upset. Woodlawn and Dyre riders who may have transferred to Second Avenue are denied the opportunity. Second Avenue becomes the worst blow to the Bronx in transit history.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of a Bronx extension of the Second Avenue line, but I don't see the true benefit of this, especially to the exclusion of a transfer. If the only way to shift some of the Lexington load to Second is to make the transit system less flexible, then maybe there's something wrong with the Second Avenue plan, and maybe we're finding solutions for symptoms rather than problems.
Mark
The point is to make the whole system work better. If the Lex express remains crush loaded, everyone suffers. (And Pelham could still go Lex express, they'd just have to do 2 cross-platform transfers instead of 1.) I'd bet most wouldn't be too inconvenienced anyway. The models could tell us more, if they were opened up for this sort of alternatives analysis.
Way back when, I wrote in and suggested saving money by building the SAS with no stations, recapturing the Pelham instead. The idea would be to have two expresses and a local instead of the other way around. The Lex local would relay north of 125th, and be reserved for the Upper East Side. The Second Avenue Express would go from 125th to 72nd (serving the hospital/university complex), then diverge in to the two downstream branches. The Dyre could also be recaptured, in my view.
But the stations south of 125th have far more ridership than the Pelham. I think that's one reason my idea was dismissed, if in fact it was ever considered.
The real beneficiaries will be the Upper Manhattan riders, who will have an empty No. 6 train starting out at 125th St., and will probably have a fairly cleared-out Q or T train coming south from there, thanks to the cross platform transfers by the Pelham passengers at 125th.
72nd & 86th: 2009
96th, 106th, 116th: 2014
54th, 42nd, 23rd, 14th: 2016
Houston, Grand, Chatham, Fulton, Hanover: 2020
Obviously this is a bit different from my 1st post- stuff changes, but this is the current schedule as far as I know at this time.
Bry
Too long.
But on the other hand, if 86th really happens in 2009, that will be beyond most people's wildest expectations. It will also seriously relieve the Lex. Large numbers of people migrate westward from the high rises on 1st through 3rd to the Lex. Especially, 2nd Ave and 72nd will be a very valuable stop because it doesn't line up with the Lex stops. For many square blocks of very dense real estate, that station will be closer than any Lex station.
And it also will keep up the pressure for extending the line.
The highest density development extends to 96th Street, since you have a fourth avenue -- York -- from that point south.
And there's also East End, which ends at 90th.
People think I'm a pessimist here, but I turn out to be a wild-eyed optimist. Months ago, I said it would be $1 billion/mile to build SAS, and was attacked for suggesting such a thing. Then it turns out it's $2 billion/mile. I suggest the full-length SAS is dead because there's no money for it, especially the half the feds are supposed to pick up, and we'd be lucky to get the original Stubway. Now it turns out the even the "full Stubway" isn't happening.
On the other hand, we're finally seeing MTA deal with reality. There's not $16.8 billion out there, but this first bite, they can afford. Something like $2-3 billion? Ridership of 200,000?
The feds will quite likely pick up half of this smaller number. I'd hoped for a larger bite, but this segment will get the most bang for the buck. And of course nearly a mile of completed SAS and the vital connection at 125th will beckon. As for southern part of SAS ("Phase III," "Phase IV"): RIP. This way, MTA won't even have to pay for a light rail system through the Lower East Side. Very clever.
No, you caught something that was missed at the time! Unfortunately bryan1945 no longer posts on this board.
I think the projected 12-16 years for completion is a FLAT OUT LIE, it could be done way faster than that if they work around the clock and use more in house employees. I understand that the lower Manhattan are will have difficulties but it can be done faster than that if they build it progressively.
How would it make more sense? I've read this so many times, but noone ever bothers to substantiate those claims. Most of NYC express runs start as locals. Another reason is to add capacity, where on 2nd Ave is the need for 60 tph?
Arti
Arti
Arti
Precisely, but not SAS.
Also lex is not that crowded, that it would need 150% additional capacity, 75, should be enough.
Arti
Uh, I don't think there's a correlation between bus riders and subway riders along a given corridor. The bus allows a more direct entry into the "transit mode" for people. Burdened with packages, say, it's very convenient to be able to remain on one level and walk no more than a block or so for the boarding point. A city with the density of New York, esp. the CBD of Battery Park to Harlem, needs that level of mobility. While the specific total number of paid fares may be "equal" to 2 TPH, the purpose and destinations of the passengers are not generally on a par with passengers riding trains under the bus line.
Arti
The planned line is an attempt to satisfy everyone by having only two tracks but with stations spaced further apart than would generally be found on a local. I'm afraid it will satisfy no one.
Express maniacs coming from the Bronx will generally not transfer to a 2nd Avenue local.
Many potential local passengers who live near 2nd Avenue will still be closer to a 6 station.
I don't think the line needs to start its life as a four-track line, but I do think it needs to be built with the a potential expansion in mind. Stations should be located where one would eventually want local stations on a four-track line. That way, even if the express tracks never come to fruition, at least it would be an attractive line to neighborhood residents.
I don't understand the analogy to the Sea Beach. The population density around 2nd Avenue is a wee bit higher than the population density around the Sea Beach, don't you think?
Why on earth would they transfer at all unless SAS would get them closer to their destination. No one destined downtown would transfer to SAS at 125th Street.
«I don't understand the analogy to the Sea Beach. The population density around 2nd Avenue is a wee bit higher than the population density around the Sea Beach, don't you think?»
That brings up another question, which stations would be express ones, they all deserve to those. IIRC, you complain about the 7th Av not serving the local customers sufficently. Actually a better analogy would be Astoria line.
Arti
Maybe to get a seat? Some folks don't consider a seat a luxury. I sometimes transfer to a V or R at Roosevelt Ave just to get a seat when I don't feel like standing any longer, especially if I can spare the extra five minutes for the local. Or maybe someone might want a pole to himself instead of sharing it with six other people.
Then they would do it regardless of SAS being local or express, remember that was the original argument.
Arti
They would if SAS had an express service that stopped at 125,42,14, then local. I know express runs don't save much time over locals, but an 83-block-long express run has to save SOME time. This could provide the neccessary diversion off the Lex line before it has a chance to get crowded, which I believe was one of the goals of the SAS in the first place. It should at least have a 3rd track with such a service, even if it maybe stops at 72 St. Have the Canarsie, 4 Av (south), Jamaica, & all (except Lex & Bwy) river crossings taught us nothing? A two-track line cannot be taken OOS without suspending service, and if a train is disabled or in event of incident, all trains are stuck in place.
If they're going to spend all this money to dig the tunnel they should throw in a 3rd/4th track or at least the space for it, for once the ground is sealed and several years down the line we realize we needed one, it'll be too late. Besides, if it is to be all island platforms, doesn't that mean there is enough room in the line of platforms to stick a 3rd track underneath/above?
Few minutes, as we can judge by current MTA schedules, but you'd have to spend time transferring and waiting for the train. Also lex express will only make 2 more stops.
«A two-track line cannot be taken OOS without suspending service, and if a train is disabled or in event of incident, all trains are stuck in place»
There are plenty of those in NYC. To spend billions to use it only in the case of emergency is ridiculous.
Arti
It means boring another parallel tunnel. Judge yourself.
Arti
The 10 block spacing on the section 116-106-96-86 is about the limit of what's right for local station spacing - I'd go so far as to say it's just about what's ideal. The gaps 86-72 and 72-54 are silly. They would do better to replace 72 and 54 with stations at 76 (sorry, couldn't resist...), 66, 57, and 50.
I do think it needs to be built with the a potential expansion in mind.
Agreed. There should be two stations on stubway designed as express stations, preferably 116 (so that Expresses can go to the Bronx and Locals across 125) and 66 (or 72 if they really are serious about mega-gaps). The Express tunnel in between could be dug at a later date if required.
4 tracks are definitely not needed below 63rd St as 2 tracks will have diverged to become the Broadway Express. A full 2nd Avenue Express effect could be given by making the Express tracks in UES become the only tracks on 2nd Av below 63rd St.
You are forgetting the stop at 63rd and 3rd Avenue.
Arti
Arti
Of course not, neither there couldn't be. The stop is a block away at 3rd.
«But that still leaves a huge gap for the "T" trains»
And the problem with this is?
Arti
Then again, don't forget the existing turnouts from the 63 St line that will allow a Manhattan-bound Queens Blvd train to head south on 2 Ave and vice-versa. The MTA doesn't seem to be planning such a service right now, but if the connection is there it could happen, and in that case four tracks south of 63 St might be justified.
Since the busiest stations are built with entrances at both ends, the gaps get to be 3 blocks smaller. If you include opening up the 3rd Ave end of the current Lex/63rd station, according to the SDEIS (Table 2-1) you would have entrances at:
125, 116, 106, 96, 86, 83, 72, 69, 63 (and 3rd), 57-56, 54-53, 44, 42-41, 26, 23, 14, 12, 3, Houston, etc.
The worst gap here is 11 blocks, (or 12.5 if you ignore 3rd and 63rd), not much more than the 10 between local stops in many cases in Manhattan.
The one major cross street without a nearby entrance is 79th.
That wouldn't show it was done deliberately. It would show they ran out of money.
I still think they could expand it to 4 tracks, it would make lots more sense and relieves crowding on the Lexington Av line and the M15
Just to punch up Arti's point, I really don't see the need for 4 tracks. With modern signalling, the 2-track line should be able to run 40 tph. A 4-track line would therefore be 80 tph. Does 2nd Ave really need that?
I think the projected 12-16 years for completion is a FLAT OUT LIE, it could be done way faster than that if they work around the clock and use more in house employees
Some people use phrases like "flat out lie" too loosely. Factors to consider:
Whether they use in-house or outside resources, working all night costs more money. The work to restore the 1/9 subway was done that way, but this was an extraordinary situation.
Work at ground level in residential neighborhoods will probably be limited to waking hours.
Traffic re-routes need to be self-contained, i.e., you don't want to take the entire length of 2nd Ave out of service at once.
Where the SAS requires connections/transfers to other lines, there will be significant service disruptions, and you don't want to disrupt too much of the system at once.
Finally, capital dollars in any given year are scarce.
Right on schedule. If only they can fix an escalator with such speed....
On the El structure just to the west of this, there are little square-shaped pieces of steel with bolts, spaced apart at the width which the two rails (and the supporting steel colums underneath) would be. In fact, one of them looks as though it has been rebuilt-they're probably going to put another "obstruction" building there.
This is all on the straight section, the bumper is literally right at the end of the straight track, before it curves with Fulton Street. Does anybody know what the deal is with this? Was there once a track there? And if so, where was Van Siclen Ave station? There is no indication of a switch or anthing; it looks as though it went right into where the platform is. I can't believe that nobody (myself included) noticed this on the Eastern Division tour a couple of weeks ago.
It was converted into a center platform station and the center track eliminated sometime between 1903 and 1917.
I believe that there is a track diagram in the Allen Paul Kahn book, The Tracks of New York No. 2, Brooklyn Elevated Railroads.
Jimmy
Hehe, well partly correct. It actually GOES to 76th Street. The vortex is right at the end of that girder above Alabama station. They say that on quiet foggy nights you can actually see the R39's ride down that girder from where they are stored at 76th Street Station on their way to the Twilight Zone.
76th STREET!!!!
Sloooooowly I turned ... step by step ... inch by inch ...
The station remained side platform with a center track and interlocking until about 1916, when ENY was rebuilt.
If only they really could still build Els in 1993.
The MTA did just the same thing. As soon as they possibly could, they "drove stakes" by eliminating the token, altering MetroCard machines to start charging $2 per fare and altering turnstiles to deduct $2 from MC's. The MTA can now make a good argument, and apparently they intend to do so, that requiring them to re-alter the machinery to go back to the $1.50 fare would not only waste all of the money spent in changing the machinery to accept the $2 fare, it would also reduce its income.
Just like the MTA, Moses would also never open his books to anyone.
Moses would be proud.
What the MTA did here is simply the process that has attended every modern fare increase or permanent service change. The only difference is that, it is claimed, the public notice was misleading. Robert Moses wouldn't have had any hearings at all.
The MTA is, in fact, required to open its books to many people--and does.
The requirements did not state that it had to break down into very simple terms the complicated web of bond and debt refinacing
The straphangers campigns lawsuit went after a technicality that they claim that all informations was not presented in language that is understandable to the average rider
The term average rider is where this gets interesting. Conmcidering more then half the riders are not native english speakers, what is language the average rider can understand and at what point do you draw the line on what level of detail is acceptable
Quite frankly the lawsuit was just ment to stick it to the mta becasue the state senator who filed it does not like the rupublicans in albany because they redistricted his district to include washington heights.
By the way, what word were you trying for when you typed "arfuig"? I keep trying to convince my wife that this place is mostly serious, but she has the uncanny ability to see posts like this and then wonders how I can say that.
(That's my guess.)
Get your facts straight before you post
Going back to the $1.50 fare will results in many layoffs at the mta and severe service cuts
Concidering the average fare is $1.06 and under the new fare structure it is $1,32. The MTA has done a good job of operating the system
Only if we had real problems. Remember the early 1980;s. No Ac. Trains breaking down constantly, trains always delayed
HOW SOON WE FORGET!!!
I could tell you about some private sector companies who have had consistent revenue gains, even in this era of economic crisis, who have continued to lay off employees, resulting in a progressive deterioration of customer service quality, yet financial benefits to executives, of course.
If you could convince me that the fare increase would directly result in service and capital improvements, I'd grant you the lawsuit is ridiculous. However, the Robert Moses-like tactics of the MTA, along with the recent scandal involving the new downtown headquarters construction, do not engender in me much confidence that the increase in revenue will prevent declines in service quality. It looks to me like the most immediate financial needs of the MTA are its debt service and making up for its own bungled management of the construction project.
For example, it doesn't look like the extra $0.50/ride is being spent to clean up the increase in garbage and grafitti in my home station these days. And the last A train I rode was so dirty I almost got off and waited for the next one.
It looks to me like the most immediate financial needs of the MTA are its debt service and making up for its own bungled management of the construction project.
Even if this were true, the money has to come from somewhere. But anyhow, it is not true. The system has benefited from enormous capital improvements over the last 20 years. How do you imagine these were paid for?
For example, it doesn't look like the extra $0.50/ride is being spent to clean up the increase in garbage and grafitti in my home station these days.
Look at all of the station rehabs that have been completed successfully in the last several years (Museum of N.H., 14th/8th), those in progress (Stillwell Ave, 72nd/Bdwy, Times Sq), and those about to happen (South Ferry, Fulton St). These are just examples.
It's true that many stations have yet to be redone. Without the fare increase, you'll wait for them a lot longer.
Almost no one is paying more than $.30 additional per ride. Many are paying less.
Otherwise, I agree.
The metrocard program which rewuired a significant capitol expenditure which was paid for with new debt for instance should have resulted in the closing of over 100 tooken booths thus saving a few hundred million dollars. The first series of booth closings should have occured in 1998 with most unneeded booth at part time entrances already closed. The lawsuit
Other improvemnts such as the new rail cars were needed.
The place the straphangers campaign should be focusing is in the areas that will improve the way the MTA operates such as how it manages capitol projects such as it's new headquarters. Preventing further money wasites in the future will allow more money to put into providing omproved service.
Maintianing and improving staffing for cleaning crews would be the first to go if the fare hike was reversed. The MTA probably is currently cutting corners recently but hopefully will get thier act together
Essentially true, except for the "capital spending plan" part. The state just shifted debt onto the MTA, period. And don't forget the underfunded, increased pensions.
We need to ficus on the area we can
FYI I just read on crainsny.com that moody's is about to downgrade NYS debt rating because the budget they are passing will create HUGE BUDGET deficits in the coming years
This is the same rating company that cheared the way the MTA responcibly handled the extra $600 million the mTA recieved from it;s bond refinacing
Plus the state senate just snuck through another surcharge under the radar that will charge $2.50 for each new tire purchaced in NYS including the tires on your new car. This is to set up a fund for tire recycling although only aportion will go to fund tire recycling
Clue to anyone planning to sue over the next fare hike: do so more than a few days in advance so the suit can be concluded before the fare hike takes effect.
Robert Moses often began his projects before the necessary approvals were in. That isn't what happened here. The MTA's plans had been approved by all who needed to approve it.
The fare hike was scheduled to take effect on May 4. With that in mind, when do you think it should have taken effect?
I'm looking for information on Third Avenue Railway, specifically the 600-series cars. First, does anyone have renumbering information for when the cars went to Wiener Stadtwereke Verkehrsbetriebe in Vienna, Austria? I'm trying to figure out two things. First, what was the Vienna number for TARS #637; and second, what was the TARS number for Vienna #4208?
Also, I'm confused about when the Vienna cars that were repatriated came back to the U.S. I would have thought they would all have come at once, but the sketchy information I have about the various preserved cars isn't very consistent. Seashore got its car in 1980; NatCap got its in 1971; and I don't know when Branford got its. Can anyone help with information about when these cars were retired and brought back to the US? Thanks!
Frank Hicks
There is an ex-TARS/Vienna car preserved at Crich as a TARS car, and another in the Vienna tram museum preserved as Vienna ran them.
Supposedly there is another one in Europe someplace, unrestored.
There are also four ex-3rd Ave. peter witt style Huffliners (all steels) existing in Brasil, one beautifully preserved. The other three are hanging in there.
Nothing inane, obscure or generally uninteresting about this. I'm saving my dollars for one of the St. Pete O scale models!!
Wonder why Branford hasn't tried to get one of the Huffliners, in whatever shape it's in? A Huffliner is a missing link for a 3AV collection.
The Point has an example from Peter's home town of Cleveland & it's in their Visitor Center on static display.
... but then this thread is more about TARS then Peter Witts.
"Supposedly there is another one in Europe someplace, unrestored."
The one at the Vienna museum is Vienna 4208. I know that TARS 637 is at a museum in Graz, and has been restored to its TARS colors. Other than that, I don't know what TARS cars are still in Europe.
"There are also four ex-3rd Ave. peter witt style Huffliners (all steels) existing in Brasil, one beautifully preserved. The other three are hanging in there."
I'd never even heard of those cars! Do you know what group owns them, and where I might be able to find more information on them?
Frank Hicks
The Brasil/RIO cars are they in addition to or part of the eight ?
Here's what I've got currently:
TARS - WSV* - location
629 -- 4239 -- Branford
631 -- 4216 -- Seashore
636 -- 4208 -- Vienna (Austria) trolley museum
637 -- 4209 -- Graz (Austria) trolley museum
674 -- 42?? -- National Tramway Museum (England)
678 -- 4220 -- National Capital
* = Wiener Stadtwereke Verkehrsbetriebe
Frank Hicks
We do get folks who ask that level of detail after we tell the story of 629. I try to be accurate vs. making stuff up as I go along.
FYI - the Huffliners were homebuilt "modern" cars by the 3rd Ave in 1937-8 by recycling old parts with new improvements and new bodies. The primarily ran on Broadway. The 3rd Ave management tried out the Peter Witt style door arrangement on these 75 cars only, the later cars like Branford's 629 went back to their traditional end door arrangement.
Anybody know if there are any 600's that went to Bombay surviving? Maybe I'll check the web for Indian tram enthusiast sites...
There is no 7:20pm Babylon. The last three peaks out of Penn depart at 7:09pm, 7:30pm express, and 7:39pm. If it was short, you might have been seeing a test not carrying passengers.
Mark
Oh, never mind, I misunderstood. You meant 7:20pm arrival in Babylon. That train originates at Flatbush.
Mark
One of the first times I saw that train, very nice inside, but I'm used to double doors, not the wide single door on the train. Interior display and BONG sounds (before C/R is about to make an announcement) remind me for the R142/143 trains.
Oyster Bay!
(hehe)
Mark
Can a system be partially Plaform Door/ partially regular and still function? It'd seem to work, so long as the platform doors were actuated off the actions of the Train doors, it could work. And if the system can be a mixture of platform door and no platform door then it would allow for expansion in exsisting systems easily.
But I'm still confused as to why BART, SEPTA, WMATA, MARTA, LAMTA, CTA, MBTA, Baltimore, Miami, and yes, NYCTA aren't using platform doors. I can understand SEPTA, NYCTA, MBTA and the CTA, they're quite old systems with questionable needs for platform doors, although parts of NY seem to need them. However the newer systems, especially the Red Line, seem to have little excuse not to use them. Don't those systems care that 12-9s create all sorts of delays?
Any thoughts?
It is my guess that secound ave subway will utilize ATC and possible ZPTO
many NYCT platforms are just too narrow. Platform doors will make the platform even narrower
If and when NYCT goes ZPTO once CBTC is installed system wide the cost bennifit ananlysis
ZPTO is not a good safety proposition. With no crew on the train, you have people that could be trapped in the train in the event of emergency.
T/O's should be eliminated. C/R's shouldn't.
And I've heard that ZPTO trains have THE BEST RFWS!
How is the C/R at High St gonna help on a train stuck in the cranberry tunnel?
If the doors are to be controled via CCTV why not control them from central control so that one operator could service multiple stations. During off hours one operator could cover ten or more stations becasue fewwer trains are running. As each train aproaches a station, the request for an door operatoer could be placed into a que for the next available operator.
Like these:
VAL 206 above, VAL 208 below
VAL 206 operates in Lille, Toulouse, and Orly (one of the Paris Airports).
VAL 208 operates in Lille and Rennes.
Lille has a really great system. It's got platform doors throughout, peaks at 40tph (with capacity for a further 20tph), and is all ATO. Okay, there are only two lines, but they're both a decent length (line 2 nearly ends up going into Belgium!). Toulouse, Orly, and Rennes saw a neat idea and borrowed it.
Moving from two man crews to ZPTO is a but radical and will never happen in NYC.
To come back to reality
For the life of me I don't know why NYCT is still using two man crews and is not installing CCTV to fully cover platforms. The T/O should be driving the train and operating the doors via CCTV platform camerers who transmitt via rf to incab flat panel monitors. The ROI on such an instalation would be paid for in a matter of months.
Many stations on the brighton and broadway have recieved CCTV but only cover parts of the platform. It is measures like this that advocacy groups should be advocating
Such as sytem is far safer then the current system. The reduction in draggings at stations with CCTV is proof
I do see a point so that in largere system T/O should still be onboard to handel such situation.
I suggest you to read through the archives of SubTalk about Taegu subway arson fire to think why this should be happened and caused such a devastating result.
Here are some links that you can refer to:
Question about Korean Subway Fire
More Than 130 Dead in S.Korea Subway Fire
I did have the thought of moving the C/R off the train and putting them in a booth somewhere on the platform. The whole platform would be equipped with CCTV cameras, and there would be one person for each platform watching those cameras, making sure that people aren't getting dragged or caught in the doors. They would operate the Platform doors, which would, in turn, be relayed to the train car's doors, opposite what most people would envision.
This way there is no need for the C/R to walk back and forth to check platforms on the left or right. There is no need for an RF transmitted video picture, as on SEPTA's MFL. All trains can have RFWs because there is no need for the C/R to check left or right.
Now I know this will get me in trouble... :-)
Are you kidding me? You suggested bringing back the RFW. Expect the ticker-tape parade to commence shortly.
Will all the nice railfans protect me?
[Glup!] :-)
Such a system could be implimented on some lines in less then a year. Broadway and beighton lines have CCTV at most stations. Granted not on the entire platform, but that can be worked out
Plus it would not make sense to upgrade any car older then r62.
Even if the MTA made the decision to impliment one man crews on all lines as soon as possible(not practical). The earliest the entire system could operate this way would be years in the future. Not to mention it does not make sense to spend money upgrading any equiptment up for retirement. Individula lines such as the brighton and the broadway could be opearting in a matter of months becasue many of the stations already have some cctv coverage
What is the cost of employing someone in a job function that is not needed.
Everyone is complaining on the effect of the fare hike on poor folks and that MTA employees deserve a rasie. This is a way to satify both
As for future headcount and payrole. Overall payrole for train crews will decreae. The take for each remaining crew member wil increase
For every govenment worker who gets paid out of tax reveune/fare that is not needed. Two private sector jobs are lost due to the higher taxes to pay for this person
How many good paying privatge sector jobs and the taxes they bring to fund such projects as mass transit expansion and better schools are lost by employing workers that are not needed. two man crews are not needed with todays technology. At one time each elevator had an operator. Thier were fewer elevators in buildings. Without the cost of an elevatore operator, building owners are able to operate more elevaors
Look at the pluses. The MTA would be able to run more service as the cost to operate each individual train set decreaes. The money spent on two man crews would get re-distibuted to other areas. We can have west end express, more service on lines currently underserved. More bus services, etc
For example the sea beach and bay ridge lines could operate with 6 car trains more often in rush hour at the same cost. It makes it less expensive to operate more service.
A C/R making $50,000 a year gets fired, is on unemployment/public assistance for months to years, and then ends up in an unskilled, low-wage job because the private sector doesn't have jobs that meet the skills of the C/R. Eliminating good-paying jobs is a lose-lose situation. Under your plan, I, as a working class taxpayer, feel like the system will be really screwing a lot of people over.
Even his e-mail is suspect: adspace25@yahoo.com.
All his posts are pure, unadulterated crap. He spells worse than our West Coast poster.
He earned first place in my killfile, as I do not wish to read anything he posts.
I can't wait to SMEE on Sunday, June 29.
Chuck Greene
Bisedes, I thank my spilling iz great. Dan't ya agoo? :-)
Chuck Greene
U iz so sily maeking fun of dis situasion CP :-). [Look at what you made me do]
All jokes aside though, I agree with you people don't want to go through all that spell check stuff but this is BAD, 'voiceofreason' makes good arguments but the spelling is not there and sometimes makes no sense.
If you go to PC Magazine's website, they tell you how to write a script for a button in MSIE that you hit when you want to spellcheck the highlighted text in an Explorer window. The script pops up MSWord, spellchecks the text, then pastes the corrected text back into Internet Explorer. I used it before i reinstalled WinXP on my new HD. I should probably get the script again.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I do consulting work and I am at diiferent work locations with people I don't always know.
Can't risk getting caught.
Yes the riding public can get more service for the same cost or the same level of service for signficantly less money. Tje lower operating costs will allow the mta to not raise the fare in mthe future helping out working class new yorkers
That means more higher paying T/O positions.
but less overall train crew memembers
You need to take a class in macro economics.
any changes since they take time to impliment on a system as large as NYCT will not result in anyone getting layed off.
The people who are getting screwed over currently are the riding public who suffer with long headways on many lines because the MTA has failed to upgrade it's technology to the same level as other major transit operations across the US and around the world.
Employing people and paying them out of tax payers dollars for job rolls no longer needed hurts all new yorkers.
As for those young folks who don't have marketable skills to get a job in this fast pace chaging world. Go back to school to learn marketable skills
The Government will lend anyone looking to go to school to learn a trade, obtain marketable skills or get a college degree money to do so.
The MTA is not a social service agancy. It's mission is to provide safe affordable service to it's riders NOT an employment agency.
Why should the riding public be saddld with the cost of two man crews at over $100k per year when comprable service could be provided at $60k per train creww allowing more total trains runs per year for the same or less cost
And your entire attitude towards transit seems to upgrade the hell out of technology, but you seem to be pretty fiscally conservative. Just how exactly will you pay for the billions of dollars in technology upgrades? There is only so much you can hack out of a budget with no regards to the workforce. If anyone needs the lesson in basic economics (as well as typing and/or spelling), believe me it's you.
Arti
The elevator system your are probably are refering to is not microprossor controled. They are older mechanical controled elevators which don't use "smart" technology.
Most elevators installed over 15 years ago use a mechanical control mechanism. This includes the large majority of office buildings and apae\rtment houses. Only recently has microprocessor control became inexpensive enought to be universaly deployed.
many of the older non microprocessor(mechanically) controlled elevator cars had to go completly to the top or bottom floor to change direction
For example, if a rider boards car A on floor 1 of a 20 story building and got off on the 6th floor. A secound rider requests a down elevator on the 4th floor. Even though Car A is the closes car and is available, it most go all the way to the top before it reverses direction. this was done becasuse the mechanical mechanism can't think and do what if senarios.
The new microprocessor controlled elevators know where each other elevator in it's grouping area. The system determines which elevator is closest to a floor and has enough capasity to pick up rides. If the weight on a car indicated that the car is almost filled, the car does not respond to call requests. Depending on the time of day, cars not in use wait on floors closes to where they are needed.
In the morning, empty cars return to the ground level where most riders will be boarding. One elevator is designated to respond to down rewquests. Since the system thinks and knows if a rider is aboard, it chooses the elevator car that already has a rider requesting down service to service other floors while the remianing cars return to floor to pick up people arriving to work.
During the evening, empty cars stratigically stager tehmselves throught the building to be able to respond to request quickly
Buildings upgrading to microprocessor contolers often see an increase in elevator capasity of 20-30% and shorter wait times with the same number of elevator cars
My the office building I worked at in midtown uograded to microprocessor cotrols two years ago. The elevators came much faster. The older mechanical system would send elevators down to the loby when not in use and were required to go to the top floor in orde to reverse direction. If someone was coing uo from the loby and you jumoed on the elevator and selected a floor below, it went up to the top before heading down. A big time waister
"Another example of lots money wasted on high-tech high-speed equipment, actually wasting people more time.
Not to mention that those were decent paying union jobs, with good benefits. "
Not a true statement. Buildings upgrading to microprocesor controls from "dumb" mechanical controls see an increase in elevator system capasity and decreased maintance costs of the old mechanical logic system.
If buildings needed elevator opertors, thier would be fewer elevator cars in serivice at any given time causing long waits to get to onea office. Not to mention smaller buildings, and all but the most expensive residential buildings would have no elevators due to the cost of the operators. The costs would be just to prohibbited.
WheN I went to brooklyn tech in the early 1990's, the elevators were still manually operated. No more then one of the 8 elevator cars was in use at any given time(4 cars were in operating order) due to the labor cost of the operator.
Since Brooklyn tech HS installed automatic elevators thy operate multiple elevator cars at one time significantly enhancing the experience for students, especially those with asthma who had trouble climbing up and down the 8 story building
And this in your opinion is a good thing? Obviously you don't realise that that same "decreased maintenance" kills jobs. Microprocessors are evel.
Arti
"decreased maintance kill jobs"
actually it creates jobs becasue it codst less for building operators to run thier buildings decreasing rents for business, making it more economical to run a business in nyc
It reduces rents which gives more money to tenants to spend around town creating jobs otherplaces
It is quite obvious you are a high school dropout
Arti
Rents are set based on what the market will pay, but the lowest the rent can go is based on the fixed costs of a business.
Adding a tremdous fixed cost such as an elevator operator on every elevator would result in fewer elevators and longer waits
similar to what goes on a NYCT.
if it cost less to run train, thier would be more trains runnning on some lines
Arti
Arti is still sore about losing his job when the buggy whip factory closed. :-)
Tom
That was the evel politicians, who forced us out of business, of course.
Arti
How about the much simpler solution: the Paternoster.
1. Like Chris mentions you have to retrain the C/Rs ($$$) and also you'll have to bring up their salary even higher than it was before.
2. I know we're all big on more service. Who isn't, really. But how do you propose doing trackwork, etc on shorter headways? Shorter headways lead to more major service disruptions during GOs.
Why should the riding public be saddld with the cost of two man crews at over $100k per year when comprable service could be provided at $60k per train creww allowing more total trains runs per year for the same or less cost
Ok, so let me get this one straight.
2 man crew, $100G. 1 man crew at $60G at 1.5 times the service is still $90G. Not really that big of a difference.
Please again lets realize that not every crew is going to come close to $100G because not everyone out there is at top pay.
My poin ts that if the MTA saw the need to increase the service on a subway line they could still do so if needed for less then the cost of the current service
By the way $40k per train savings results in hundreds of Millions in savings which can resukt in more service.
You supported my point. Headways could be reduced by 25% providing more tps to underserved lines and still be less expensive then the current service
It is a win win for everyone. I don't understand your oposition
Anyway you spin it, it is a positive development. One that needs to be implimented in the near future
And who's out there looking for work in this downturn? Ex-elevator operators who want to go back to their $5.00/hr jobs, or laid-off trained technicians who want the $50.00/hr? Nobody ever wants to go back to manual operation, either labor or management, once they've tasted better.
Everybody is screaming about a fare hike, since much of the fare goes toward paying employees, wouldn't the elimination of a few jobs allow the MTA to run a $1.50 fare?
R-32
It would be far cheaper and just and just as effective to transmitt via rf to flat pannel monitors in the C/R cab.
Rf transmission equiptment is dirt cheap. Flat Panel monitors are now dirt cheap. 15 inch flat panel can be had for less then $200
Labor is very expensive
Platform doors prevent people getting on to the line (accidentally, suicidally or murderously), and therefore contribute to safety, whether the train is TPTO, OPTO or ZPTO. Which doesn't necessarily mean that it is cost-effective to install them retrospectively to old subways.
cool
I agree that it is probaly a good idea to have a staff member aboard most trains.
In Tokyo, I can think of one subway line built with platform doors that has through service to a private commuter line that doesn't have them. So the Platform/Regular is not unheard of. There is another line that was retrofitted with platform doors recently.
Plus, how much easier would it be if it was nearly impossible to throw trash onto the tracks? No more track fires, less maitenance, and safer commuting, seems like a good idea to me.
That is a statement I would never say. :-) My FIRST experience with transit of any kind was the Hartsfield Airport People Mover and it has platform doors. To this day, the people mover is one of my favorite trains in the world. And I'm pissed now that only ticketed passengers can ride the train :-(
John
Imagine how much fun that'd be :/
Not to mention, it there's a big alignment issue, you'd need something like a leveling head on an elevator to align the train to to the doors just right. Yet another thing to break...
The only real advantage would be shutting out a lot of heat input into the stations, and stopping people from falling off the platforms, but it really doesn't make sense from a cost benifit standpoint (one can do better ventilation, and design trackways to protect falling passengers)
Oh yes, didn't the LIRR have automagic doors to the stairs leading to the platforms at Penn at one time? I seem to recall seeing the remnants of them as a kid...
Is alignment really a big issue? I assume you're talking about NYCT, but the original post mentioned all transit systems. Hasn't the software been refined in the past 30 years to where a train will align exactly nearly everytime? With NYCT, don't the T/Os already line up nearly perfect with gap fillers and the "stand aside" signs like they have at Grand Central?
Retrofitting all of a system like NYCT with doors wouldn't make that much sense, but a busy stations where crowding is at dangerous levels, shouldn't they be considered?
Comparing airport people movers to urban rail transit systems is like comparing apples to oranges. These are two very different animals
Is alignment really a big issue? I assume you're talking about NYCT, but the original post mentioned all transit systems. Hasn't the software been refined in the past 30 years to where a train will align exactly nearly everytime? With NYCT, don't the T/Os already line up nearly perfect with gap fillers and the "stand aside" signs like they have at Grand Central?
The train control system on the newer systems would have little trouble birthing trains properly on the platforms to align platform doors with train doors. System built after the bart (Washington DC metro, Baltimore Metro, Miami Metro, Los Angeles Red Line) all use the same basic train control system. Interfacing platform door with existing train control system would not be that big of a challenge. The deal is the capitol cost of the platform hardware plus the maintenance cost puts this out of range of any cost benefit in my opinion. System like WMATA are having trouble keeping there escalators and elevators running with the budgets they have to work with.
John
Yes. There's at least one line in London like this. Jubilee?
Mark
Even on the Jubilee line extension, platform doors are only fitted at underground stations. The overground stations from Canning Town to Stratford don't have them.
The same is true of the Singapore MRT system. This was built from scratch with platform doors at all underground stations but not at any of the overground ones.
I recall reading somewhere that this is because the principal justification for platform doors is not to do with keeping people off the track (which would apply at any station).
In the case of the Jubilee line, the costs of the doors were offset by a reduction in the costs of building pressure reduction shafts to prevent excessive drafts on the platforms. In the case of Singapore, also the ability to a/c the platforms without a/cing the tunnels.
The main drawback I can see with platform doors is that they determine the layout of the rolling stock that can be used on that line. Trains with the doors in different places can't be used, which limits the transit authority's flexibility in assignment of trains. In the London case, they bought a whole new fleet of trains for the Jubilee Line and retired the previous ones very prematurely (less than 20 years old), which seems very wasteful. In St Petersburg (see my other post), all the trains seemed identical to me, so presumably the platform doors are no problem, except that they retrict any future design changes of trains.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Which would you have rather had to swallow, the Platform Doors at selected stations? Or full width cabs? And Neither is not an answer.
Rest assured ... the doors WILL align ... in the NEXT release. :)
You can see them here, on the London Underground's Jubilee Line, there is something separating the platform and the train. This is the partition on which the platform doors are mounted, in this case it's made out of Plexiglas, allowing a nearly unhindered view of the trains coming and going. The doors in this case are clearly open, and note that they provide a good deal leeway in getting the train lined up, so it's not too hard on the T/O.
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i23000/img_23676.jpg
Especially as the Jubilee Line is ATO.
I didn't know that other subways did this. Of course, this would piss of the guy I saw last week that for some reason was bouncing his head off every car (I am NOT kidding about this!!), like it was a game. He got a standing "o" by his fellow ragged fellows. The rest of us just kinda stared to see how much of his head would be ripped off.
I guess Selkirk needs a new job (:-p)
It's not the NEWER parts. Stations with platform doors were built between 1961 and 1973. After this time platform doors were recognized as an unfortunate experiment and decided never be built in future.
Demerits of platform doors:
1) Inability to lengthen platforms. Line 2 in St.Petersburg were built in 1961 for 6-car trains, that is now not enough. But because of presence of several platform-doored stations it's impossible to increase the platforms length for 8 cars as it was done on Line 1.
2) Decreased speed due to necesserity to stop the train doors directly near platform doors. Precise stopping the train takes more time then usual and causes another problem --
3) Inability to run more than 20 trains per hour.
Kotiara: It's not the NEWER parts. Stations with platform doors were built between 1961 and 1973. After this time platform doors were recognized as an unfortunate experiment and decided never be built in future
Thank you for that interesting information - I wish I'd known that there was someone on this board with detailed knowledge of the St petersburg system before I went!
In order for platform doors to work properly, the following have to be taken into consideration:
1. Door position. All rolling stock to be used must have uniformly spaced doors for alignment with the platform doors.
2. Computer controlled braking. Because of the need to align the train with the platform doors, some sort of computer controlled braking will be necessary to insure the train will stop at the right place while entering the station aggressively enough to keep to a schedule. If it were left up to a T/O to manually spot the train within a couple of inches of a mark at every station it would make the job quite stressful, and at least would end up with many T/Os crawling into stations to be sure they did not overshoot the mark. If not complete ATO, the system would require that the T/O deliver the train to some point, possibly the entrance to the station within a 10 mph speed range, (i.e. between 20-30 mph) and then the computer would through continuous feedback and adjustment of the brakes bring the train to a smooth aligned stop. (Those old enough to remember controller operated elevators can attest to how slow it was to have all but the most experienced operators align the elevator car with the floor level.)
3. Training the passengers. Now there will be two sets of doors that have to be closed instead of one at each entrance to the train. The positive effect will be that passengers holding the platform doors but seeing the train doors closing will let go, and those holding train doors and seeing platform doors close, will also give up, but since it will be difficult for a C/R or CCTV to see both sets of doors, recycling for obstructions will have to be automatic and done only for the door(s) affected.
Because of these requirements, it is unlikely that present systems will be upgraded because the cost benefit analysis does not support spending the money. New systems with more automation built into them (horizontal elevators) will be candidates for platform doors though.
Tom
Besides, why would you build the tolerances so tight that being 1 foot off one way or the other would really affect the system? If an R36WF is some 15 or 17 feet between door centers, and the doors are 4 feet wide then you could have 6 foot, possibly as high as 10 feet if done correctly, openings to allow easier loading. Of course this would need to be tuned, so that the large platform doors wouldn't need to travel a huge distance to meet the train doors.
Of course NY really wouldn't work for Platform Doors. They just run too slipshod an operation to really even have the possibility of using them in the next 30 years or so, assuming that every car after the R142s are built just like the R142s, and thats only for the IRT! The Rolling stock in New York is a mess, if it was 40 some years ago, then maybe we could do it, what with the R-12 through R-36 being relatively similar (right?), but we'd have to get rid of the older stuff faster.
Really I was more interested in why fairly new systems in America running homogenous equipment have neglected the Platform Door. Perhaps you, or some of the other SC subtalkers can provide some info as to why LAMTA didn't go for Platform doors on the Red Line, even though they were invented, relatively proven, and they were building a new line from scrath with completely homogenous equipment. Also, why don't Miami, BART, and MARTA run platform door trains, at least in the subway (if they have one)?
The usual reason — Money, or rather the lack of it. The Red Line was designed in the ‘70s, and by the time it was built had tremendous cost overruns, and strong opposition at all times. The automation necessary for platform doors is not built into the system. The L.A. system does not even use any type of CCTV. The T/O has to lean out of his window to look back along the train when he closes the doors, and has to get up and cross the cab and look out of that window at the one station which is on the other side of the train. It is far from a state of the art system.
Tom
Oh yes, Hong Kong MTR is the first system to place platform doors while operating normally. Even if a station is partially unbarred and barred with platform screen doors, the train could still stop normally with the doors open. Although the operating system on MTR is more advanced, i.e. use SACEM as in BART, DC Metro, door aligning is still a problem. The solution is to provide an allowance such that even the train does not stop properly, passengers still could alight without hinderence.
....although I really want to be in San Diego...
Tracks along the ocean, trolleys, and perfect weather all year long.
Oh well, better jump back on the 5, back to LA...
Oh, that's right, I'm only going to be in LA in spirit on Saturday...
Actually, I just found the intermediate Solona Beach photo before the grade crossing elimination and depression of the tracks, but after Coaster was running. I'm having fun with this, I haven't looked at these photos in years!
True, but sometimes the best railfanning is in the car, but actually 5 is a bad choice, 1 is obviously better. You can't take photos of the train and stations while you are on the train, but I know what you mean.
Anyway, when you say Solana Beach did you mean this:
Or this:
What a difference a few years make.....
Oh yeah, and we can't forget Del Mar (I kind of think of that whole area as the "San Diego" area...
Are they doing anything with the old Del Mar station?
Not that I'm aware of. It was there when I last passed through. Nice shots of the San Diegan, oops, I meant Surfliner. I'm looking forward to Saturday's Bob & Fred show. Incidentally, Los Angeles Union Station is really enhanced now with catenary over two tracks.
I live at MP 177.4 on the Surf Line.
I guess you were lucky to have picked one of the 340 great weather days we have every year each time you chose to rail fan. Yeah, it's tough having to live here all year round, but somebody has to do it. :-)
Tom
There, just burst your bubble and infiltrated your posts with an East Coast comment :)
--Mark
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The participants, from left to right: Salaam Allah, Brighton Exp Bob, Steve Hoskins, George Foelschow, Old Tom, and Sea Beach Fred.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Remember, if we hadn't loaded so much debt onto the transit system in the 2000 to 2004 capital plan, we could have funded a large part of the SAS ourselves.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
The timers restrict speed well below safe operation of brakes, so obviously it's something else.....
Could it be that the train travelling at high speed isn't good for the bridge? likely culprit......
The brakes are designed to stop the train at 45mph speeds. Those trains go nowhere near that fast. Even a 35 GT would be more appropriate for slowing the trains (with a 25 GT at the portals).
That is a misleading statement. The safe speed depends on
both the braking rate and the control length distance of
the signals in that area. You want higher speeds? Then give
up train density.
--Mark
ORDERS/ODORS
Peace,
ANDEE
how do you get from 6th ave to whitehall?
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Speaking of running express, when the SB 6 (and late night 4) runs express from 14th to BB, are GO transfers distributed and accepted at Bleecker NB and at Broadway-Laf, or is that transfer effectively unavailable?
From Queens Plaza:
-down 53 St tunnel to 5 Av/Madison
-down 6 Ave Line to Jay Street
-down Crosstown Line to Church Ave
-down Culver Line to Ave X
-thru CI Yard, loop tracks, out to the (N) tracks
-down the Sea Beach Exp trax to 59 St/4 Av
(Rejoin route @ 59 St).
Man would that be a sweet ride! Too bad they aren't really doing this. They just botched the service advisory, as usual. Imagine an R46 R train on the Sea Beach Express!
I don't think Fred would like that, though. Especially when the N gets held at 8th Avenue so the R can cross in front of it...imagine the swearing you would hear if you were on that N...
What's botched about it?
Only about 1000 or so "Weekend Service Changes" posters in every subway station that state that "R trains run via the V from Queens Plaza to Whitehall St." The average subway rider (especially weekend tourists) doesn't know there isn't a track connection between the V line and Whitehall St. The average subway rider will also go by these posters because they are more convenient (they're everywhere!) than looking them up on the website. I just hope the C/R's make the appropriate announcements at 34/6, or else there will be many steamed passengers at 2nd Avenue wanting to get to Lower Manhattan.
They usually post the more detailed PDF file as the poster in the subways.
The detailed PDF is correct. It's just the summary 2-liner on the web page that's wrong.
Incidentally, the last time this GO ran, there was at least one R-32 consist on the quasi-V.
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If we had a nickle for every new transit proposal.....
Indiana okays high-speed rail bill
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#Indiana
Illinois governor proposes $37 million for rail
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#Illinois
Florida legislature derails governor’s plan
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#Florida
Five rail bills on Congress’ tables
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#Five
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I hope that damned trucking outfit has to pony up for all the damages it caused.
P-42 locomotive No. 199; baggage-mail 1726; crew dorm 2518, Pine Shore (ex 2892, 2732, ATSF 1643); Viewliner sleeper 62011, Gulf View; Viewliner sleeper 62013, Harvest View; diner 8519; lounge 28000, Miami Club; and Amfleet II coaches 25085, 25047, 25078, 25075.
Heavy damage was reported on the locomotive and rear end of Viewliner 62011, and to the vestibule of 62013.
Three days later, Amtrak sources reported No. 91’s total wreck damage estimates in dollars to be $860,000.
The entire consist of the Silver Star was rerailed on May 5, and was to be cleared for movement by May 9 or 10. Engine 138 was removed from Train 97 of May 6 and was assigned to haul the “hospital train” to Sanford, Fla.
Damage estimates: Eng. 199, $350,000; 1726, $15,000; 2518, $100,000; 62011, $125,000; 62013, $125,000; 8519, $30,000; 28000, $30,000; 25047, $25,000; 25085, $20,000; 25078, $20,000; 25075, $20,000.
It took a little more than five hours to get all the equipment back onto the iron. P-42 locomotive 199 was rerailed at 1:50 p.m. The first car to be put back on the track was 25075 at 12:15 p.m., and the last was 8519 at 6:30 p.m.
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Why won't this god dammed Mag-Lev crap die! It's just a giant waste of tax money that will never transport a single person.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#FRA
On one hand they finally found a corridor that Maglev can run down that isn't either a fully served area or an area MUCH better served by LRT, Subway or Monorail. If this works it'd give maglev a true chance to show itself, running 300mph across the desert, could really show it's potential to shut down the airline shuttles. LA-LV needs something, anything, and this is just as well, outside the two metropolitan areas there are few Nimbys to contend with, especially compared to the NEC, and with the right route engineering 300mph could be sustained for lots of the run. It'd be cool if it left the LA basin via Cajon Pass, trains moving at 10-30 mph being and cars and trucks doing 45-70 mph being passed by maglevs doing 250-300mph!
On the other hand, it's the FRA and they're messing with Maglev! Pretty soon they'll be demanding 150ton trains with nobody in the first or last car, on the off chance that the maglev train, which completely surrounds the guideway, jumps the track and smacks into a 200 ton freight loco. Oh, and they'll want homeballs for all track side signals.
If there ever was a damn useless proposal, this had to be it.
-Robert KIng
The flight time is right under an hour.
$59-$88 each way, and they make a profit on the service.
Now, Los Angeles and Las Vagas need to do a better job connecting the airports to the rest of the city.
I love rail transit, but it really can't economicly comptete between cities, except where a high-speed infrastructure has already been built, and even then the door-to-door time just barely equals airlines.
And besides, airlines don't make money, they are responsible for a pitance of the cost required to run an airport, AND they recieve massive government bailouts while our passenger rail atrophies under the pressure of underfunding and oppresive regulations. Airlines are hugely subsidized, just like automobiles, trucking and busse are, none of them want to admit it. Make both routes cover 100% of ALL costs at the farebox (such as it is), and watch the Air price skyrocket while the maglev's cost remains more constant. Assuming that the Maglev utilized the Halbach Array permanent magnet system as opposed to a superconducting guideway, and a routing that lead it down the median of I-15, allowing dirt cheap construction, then the initial costs would be quite low, allowing for lower fares for the same return on investment. This thing could make money, if done properly.
Maybe it's a Republican consipracy to put together a project that could soak up so much in federal funds there's nothing left for the SAS.
In any case, if you think MagLev technology is expensive, just think how much it would cost to build a ROW from downtown LA to San Bernardino where the desert starts. That would dwarf the actual train-related costs.
Go me thinking. Let's say the government was willing to buy and tear down buildings for transit the way it did for highways. Which would be cheaper, a subway under a street, or an embankment train like the Brighton Line? In Manhattan, the answer is the subway, because the buildings are so expensive. But in LA?
Hmmm, considering that referendum LA passed a few years ago prohibiting city money to be spent on, specifically, new subways, an embankment would also be a loophole in that silly law.
Mark
A lot less than tunneling, but the politics would go on for years.
But an ROW already exsists, thanks to the I-10 running nearly straight out from Downtown LA to San Bernardino, why not just build atop that? Maglev, by all rights, should have more in common with Monorail than conventional HSR ROWs, it can be placed in areas that usually wouldn't see a HSR or even LRT train, but a Monorail Maglev could be placed right along, either atop the median, off to one side or another, or straddling the outside of the freeway. The freeway's frequent turns and grades might require a slowdown of the trains, but hopefully you'd make that up once out in the desert, doing 250-300mph.
Instead of a maglev, it seems that a hybrid system that uses linear propulsion, but rolls on old fashioned wheels and rails, might be a more practical technology. Such hybrid systems are already found on fancy roller coasters.
Mark
The array consists of a guideway with copper loops shorted together to form two copper coil rails. The train contains rare earth magnets with their pole offset 90 degrees from the previous, this has found to have the effect of virtually canceling the magnetic field on one side of the array while making it even stronger on the other.
The lift force for the maglev would come from it's very forward motion. As the Array mounted on the train travels over the copper coils it would generate a magnetic field either repelling (as in the case of an ElectroDynamic Maglev - EDS) or attracting (as in the case of an ElectroMagnetic Maglev - EMS) the train. Thus the energy to lift the maglev train would be bled from the forward kinetic energy of the train. At zero MPH the array would generate zero lift, this would require wheels on which to roll while still moving too slowly to generate enough lift. At some point the monorail would travel fast enough forward that it would create enough of a magnetic field to take off from the track and become a maglev. Thus far most people seem to think that a maglev train will take off at around 5-10 mph depending upon the size of the arrays, coil and so on.
With a Halbach Array, the friction associated with the Electrodynamic forces on the train by the maglev array would actually decrease with speed. This is of course the opposite what steel-wheel on steel-rail friction does, and means that, ignoring the atmosphere, the most efficient trains would run the fastest.
The maglev would need some sort of external power, but all maglevs require separate lift/power components. For a Halbach Array maglev anything from LIMs to straight Jets could be used. One way to save on an extended ROW over a relatively infrastructure poor area would be to use a small turbofan, perhaps like the GE TF34 found in the A-10 Warthog and the S-3 Viking (the plane that landed Dubya on his carrier) to power the maglev out over that stretch of track. Because a Halbach Array maglev's track need not be powered so long as the train itself is powered somehow the somewhat large capitol costs that might be associated with the maintaining of LIMs the length of the line could be saved, albeit at the cost of surrendering to the whims of the oil market. As the train approaches a town LIMs could resume again when it reaches a real power grid, here it could change over from gas turbine to LIM power, keeping it somewhat neighbor friendly.
Turns out that General Atomics is working on a variety of Halbach Array using monorails both of the EDS and EMS types, however they're working on garbage Urban Peoplemover projects like Pittsburg's airport, and which are a complete waste of Maglev's potential. Here's hoping for good luck for the line, they'll most likely need it.
More Halbach Array maglev stuff:
http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/TPMag.html
http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/TPMagIntro.html
Screen http://www.matchrockets.com/ether/halbach.html
At this point the US, which at one time lead the way in High Speed and Electrified trackage, is sliding further and further from our one-time greatness. At one time we had 6300 track miles of electrified railroad lines, 20% of the world electrified lines in 1938. Yet we backed off, no other electrification has really been done since then, other than Amtrak's Boston extention, and a few pitiful extentions to the New York area commuter railroads. And all the while we lost the Virginian and MILW electrifications, some 200 and 900 route mile respectively, not to mention huge chunks of the Pennsy's catenary where Black or Blue and Grey diesels now roam under the empty arms of the catenary uprights. Keep in mind that the Metroliner WAS the worlds fastest train when it ran in the late '60s. When the French were still trying to figure out whether TGV would be Gas Turbine or Electric and when Japan was still tolling around at 125 in their Shinkansens, we had a 160mph train that worked (not with the best maitenance record, but I'm willing to bet pieces of it never flew off at speed).
Today our rail lines are but a shadow of their former selves, we have a POS 'High Speed' train that can't even reach what the Europeans do in regular passenger service during non-revenue testing, other than a few coal carriers in the west all freight is pulled by diesel, despite the massive savings that could be had by using something like an E60CF, GM6C or GM10B.
We failed, plain and simple, to provide an adequate right of way for our trains, and thus we basically lost them. We're trying to play catch up with the Japanese and Europeans now that we see what they have done and how well it works. But we're only trying to emulate them at where they were maybe 5 years ago, if we want to really get a HSR system that is truely world class then we must look where they will be looking in 5 years, Maglev. Germany is starting to talk about a Hamburg-Berlin Transrapid system again, Japan is looking at an MLX01 clone running along side the Shinkansens from Osaka to Tokyo, and Shanghai already has it's 240 mph airport-city link thanks to Transrapid.
We need a working Maglev system to get back in the running for a world class rail system, merely trying to make the 'American TGV' won't cut it anymore. By the time we build our 186mph train it will be 10 years in the future, which means that we'll be where Europe was 20 years ago (as measured from 2003, not 2013). Simply going through the natural progression from catenary to medium HSR to full 220mph HSR (by which time it'd be cheaper just to have built a superconducting maglev right off the bat).
Besides, since the FRA basically forbids any rational, workable HSR system from connecting to exsisting rail systems, the number one argument against maglev, it's lack of interconnectivity, is basically null and void. If you're going to have to build a brand new terminal for the HSR trains, as well as a completely exclusive ROW and such, you might as well just go and build a maglev, you'll get a better ride quality and improved efficiency while having the option of higher speeds in the future. Lets face it, there is only so fast you can spin a steel wheel before it starts to fatigue badly from the centripetal acceleration.
Now I have offered a cheaper, safer, and just generally better way to do a maglev. I also have offered what I feel to be semi-rational argument for a maglev, similar to arguments I hear for TGV-style trains in the US. Now, unless you have some argument other than the rather underwhelming "Monorails and maglev are stupid" argument, please feel free to debunk me and my proposal.
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http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#Parsons
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Now if only they could electrify more lines.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#Chicago
I know they're not talking about it, Daleys too nuts with his O'hare-Loop link (Blue Line anyone?) to try something that would make sense, but hypothetically:
Would it be better for the Electric lines to be upgraded from 1500vdc to 11 or 25Kvac before an extention of the electrification were attempted?
Or is it better to try and make the new system 1500 kvdc, even though it could lead to two completely different systems if nationwide electrification were attempted.
OR, would it better to make two different systems, high voltage DC for the exsisting lines, high voltage AC for the others?
Wrong. The South Shore Line operates over the same trackage as the IC for quite a ways coming south from Randolph Street, which means that if the IC electrification system were changed the South Shore's would have to be changed as well. NICTD has plenty of other problems to spend their money on, including a shortage of rolling stock and a slowly decaying infrastructure (much of which dates back about 75 years), and I think they would subscribe to the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" theory on this one.
Frank Hicks
Aurora, not Auroura.
Heritage Coridor runs 3 trains weekdays between Union Station and Joliet, during the morning and evening rush periods.
Electrification would be nice, but will never realistically happen. New equipment, new high-level platforms, and Cantenary that didn't interfear with the heavy volume of freight trains. These 3 strikes together equal a big NO from Metra and the BNSF which owns the line.
The IC line is electrified because it was a really long time ago when the city pressured it to because its STEAM trains were polluting the lakefront. Plus it runs on a dedicated right-of-way that is seperate from frieght and Amtrak operations. Amtrak has its own low level platform station at Homewood seperate from the High-level Metra station.
I thought Amtrak trains could use high or low level platforms. They share high platforms with Metro-North in NYC area, don't they??? I realize Amtrak goes to Union Station and Metra to Randolph. But you would think installing a switch south of McCormick place and South of Homewood would solve this problem. Then Amtrak and Metra could share a high-level platform. Less station to Maintane and less confusing for passenger with 1 station instead of 2.
Doesn't Amtrak share high level platforms with Metro-North on the Hudson Line?? I will be riding to NYC from Chicago this August on Amtrak's Lake Shore Limited and was looking at some pictures online. It appeared that they shared high platforms at some stations. Not to mention, isn't Penn Station all high level platforms??
I thought that all Amtrak, long distance, trains use "Superliners"?? Am I wrong, or is there another type of equipment they use or is there actually low platforms for them at Penn and the Metro North Stations??
The Superliners DO work out of Washington, DC on the Capitol Limited, and there are a couple platforms at DC Union Sattion that are still low-platformed. The platforms normally used by the NEC (Northeast Corridor) services are all high platforms.
Out in the west, we have the California Amtrak cars, and the Pacific Surfliner cars (basically,both are the same carbody shells) and these can work only at low platforms. The Talgo equipment in the Pacific Northwest is the same, low platforms only. The only high platforms we see out here are on the subway systems in Los Angeles and San Francisco....nothing on "mainline" railroads.
Just a few ALP-46s would be it, along with the wires. Which can clear those trendy doublestacks anyway. Though 25kv would require a bit more - 12.5kv might be a better choice.
The #1 problem with Metra is it's primarrily diesel, which means it's slow. That limits ridership - despite being a huge system, it's ridership is pretty low.
A one for one swap of the existing stuff for ALP-46s would boost system speeds, make the system quieter, elimanate the fumigating of passengers, and attract higher ridership.
I find it funny that Metra needs double and even triple tracking on their system, whereas the LIRR moves more traffic on two tracks through Mineola than probbably an stretch on Metra, the much flaunted raceway included.
The slowest Metra Line is the Electric Line NOT, any of the diesel lines. The Electric line is limited to 65 mph max, whereas its diesel lines run 70-79 MPH max speed limits. Similarly, most express trains on the BNSF line run non-stop to Downers Grove Main St. or Naperville, zones E & F. On the Electric they make 2 stops downtown and one in Hyde Park, Zone B, before running express to zones D, E, or F.
ALso, Metra has very high ridership for the size of its system. Nothing compares to NYC, but try comparing Metra to say LA's Metro-Link. The Systems are about the same size, but Metro-link doesn't get anywhere near the ridership that Metra does. I believe its like 35,000 weekday riders compared to 250,000 weekday riders.
The high level platforms if thats what you mean, don't really save that much time. Trains dwell almost the same time on the BNSF line as they do on the Electric line. The only line that would really benefit from all high platforms is the South Shore. It has a mix of high and low level platforms and takes forever at the low stations which are the majority of them. This is only because the trains are made for both types and at all low stations people can only exit from 1/2 of the doors and the stairs have to be adjusted twice before a train can depart a station.
But on Metra's diesel lines the trains are made for low platforms and no adjustments are made and all doors open.
This is not NYC or Philadelphia, where catenary has been in place since the early 1900's.
Most of the METRA commuter lines are owned by "freight" railways. Thus, they have to accomodate the "high & wide" freight cars.
Try selling electrification to BNSF and Union Pacific - which one is going to bite first?
They are already pissed that they must expidite passenger trains in the rush hours - do you think that either road will allow overhead catenary be strung over their tracks?
I don't think so!
As for the IC - it electrified in 1926. This was a mandate from the City of Chicago because of the close proximity to the lakefront. Remember the Daniel Burnham philosphy was still very much in play.
Otherwise, there would be NO electrication in Chicago except for the North Shore (abandoned 1963), the CA&E (cut back from Chicago in 1953 and abandoned in 1957 - passenger service I mean), and the South Shore, which operates today, but only because it uses the ex-ICRR electrified mainline from 115th St/Kensington to Randolph Street.
METRA getting $51 million, is a drop in the bucket to CTA's over $400 for the Douglas Branch of the Blue Line and the undetermined amount for the rehabbing of the Brown Line to allow 8-car trains.
However, the Federal handouts will come to and end soon since King Richard pulled his "at the dark of night closing of Meigs Field". The Republican lead Congress will not allow him to get away with that stupid move.
Jim K.
Chicago
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Now if only they could electrify more lines.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#Houston
Currently the Metropolitan Transit Authority of Harris county gets its money from a 1% sales task. In order to keep Houston from building a monorail system 12 years ago, the former Mayor(who controls the Metro board of Directors) made Metro give 25% of the sales tax back to its member cities and the county to use for roads. In reality the other governments cut their road spending by the same amount, and spent the money on things like police and parks.
Now, the current board of directors (controlled by a pro-rail mayor) wants to take back the 25% of the 1% sales tax and use it to build a 45 mile light-rail system. They claim the money will also be used for bus upgrades and more HOV lanes, but the vast majority is for rail projects. Houston and Metro-area voters would have to approve the plan in an election this fall.
Several of the major candidates in the next election of Houston Mayor (the current mayor cannot run due to term limits) are against the rail plan. Several mayors of outlying cities that are part of Metro are against it. A local republican state representative tried to pass a law requiring Metro to spend 25% of its money on roads. The local Republican US representative in the transportation committee has said he does not like the plan, and says each individual component should be voted on separately.
Metro is close to opening an small, 7 mile light rail line built entirely with local money, because House Majority Whip Tom Delay, from suburban Sugarland, personally blocked any federal money from being used for light rail in Houston. He claimed he blocked it because there had not been an election for the project.
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I have a solution, don't build it, its a waste.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#Minnesotans
(This is not my personal viewpoint)
If they want a streetcar system they should build one. Not some half assed subway replacement.
I agree with you that many cities that are jumping on the light rail bandwagon really need heavy subways. Houston, Denver, and Dallas come to mind most immediately. But it seems to me that light rail is serving a purpose and letting cities sample the benefits of rail transit, without the massive financial commitment of a heavy subway. So if in 20 years the light rail is replaced with a heavy subway, that's better in my own opinion than a subway never getting built at all...which may be the outcome if light rail hadn't allowed the city to experience the value of rail transit in the first place.
What I think would be a wise idea is for U.S. cities building light rail systems to do is to build them on the European "premetro" model, where the system is designed for easy upgrade to heavy rail if it becomes necessary in the future.
Mark
I feel that the US needs some credit for the "pre-metro" concept too - the Green line in Boston, the Muni Metro in San Francisco and even the Newark City Subway (as originally conceived) really are pre-metros, aren't they, with streetcars/LRVs going into a tunnel in the central areas of cities while taking to the streets in the outer areas?
There is the reverse case. Sometimes disused or underused railway RoW is avilable but it needs a tunnel through the city centre. In the UK, in Newcastle upon Tyne the capital to build the tunnel was found and there is now a proper metro there. But in Manchester, and in Croydon (south London), limited stretches of on-street running in the central area link between longish runs on private RoW to provide a good service overall - not as fast as a real subway, but a lot better than buses. Similar situations exist in Denver and San Diego. It does need careful planning to prevent the on-street sections getting stuck in congestion with the cars, but this can be successful. I'm waiting to see how it works ut in my former home town of Nottingham, UK, when their LRT system opens later this year.
However, in this new light rail craze they are building "systems" that consist of a single line and you still don't see the sort of terminal infrastructure needed to support heavy volumes.
If they want a streetcar system they should build one. Not some half assed subway replacement."
The best way not to waste any money on rapid transit is never to build any rapid transit systems. I stick by my view that a real light-rail system that gets built, and is useful, is preferable to an ideal subway system like the SAS that never gets built.
If any of the LRT systems being built nowadays are so successful that in twenty years' time the traffic justifies replacement by a real subway, well, that is fine -- the twenty years' use will have justified the more modest expense on the LRT. But if the capital to build the subway is still not forthcoming at that time, the public will still have some (non-ideal) rapid transit service, rather than none.
Let's be REAL here - New York City *has* the population density to justify "heavy rail" (and anything less would be ... well ... "republican" in its stupidity and "duh factor") ... but for smaller cities who appear on the Neilsen charts as "ADI's" ... light rail *IS* the ticket ... frankly, I'm STILL surprised that for "crosstown transit" New York City has never gone for monorails or OTHER forms of "light rail" ... the DENSITY of NYC would at LEAST support a prudent factor for monorails or at least trolleys (whoops, MEANT "light rail") for CROSSTOWNS ...
But for the TOP TEN cities in the nation, Heavy rail is a required reality ... for anything LESS than "top ten" then LRV's, Monorails and even buses should be sufficient. The MAJOR factor in the success of "heavy rail" comes down to DENSITY and number of people who would USe it ... and FEW cities really qualify. Don't get me wrong, I'd *LOVE* to have a subway stop in Voorheesville, NY that WENT somewhere, but I'd be INSANE to allow a politician to build one *HERE* ... unless of course, *I* was the appointed motorman for *THE* train. *THEN* I'd vote for it. :)
I also see light rail a possible way to making heavy rail feasible. I think to get population density, there has to be good transit. Otherwise. parking lots dominate. So light rail can help revitalize and densify city centers. If it's wildly successful, then maybe heavy rail will someday be feasible.
Mark
HELL! It'd be like the BRT all OVER again! And what subtalker COULDN'T get into "traction" from Streetcars to CONVERTIBLES to the beach? But heavy rail DOES have its place - and NYC and only a DAMNED FEW other places can really justify the "load" ...
Now if only growing cities had the SENSE to build HEAVY rail TRUNK lines and fill in the "crosstowns" properly as feeders to all that. NYC is NOT one of them ... NYC *should* consider MONORAILS one "flight up from street level" as the natural replacement for bus routes jammed in gridlock west to east ...
AHA!
Please forgive me in my business to not keep up with this thread from where I've just left it - time is precious to me - I make my living selling software and spend my time answering emails from customers who did dumb things ... so if I lose track of this thread and don't kick in any further, I beg all to forgive me if anyone espects me to comment and doesn't get a reply. I'll TRY to keep up with it, but can't promise a reply ...
But discuss ... thuis surely makes a more noteworthy subtak than actually expecting our political lawgivers to "do the right thing." :)
Mark
PHUCK THE GOP! We voted for the phuckers and they STILL PHUCK US!!!!!!!
But yeah, makes EMINENT sense ... but the GOP *STILL* phucks us all. With number 50 grit. :(
And we VOTED for the pricks! REPEATEDLY! :(
Nothing to do with cows, I presume.
This is a Kinki-Sharyo...tres belle! :-P
Cities need to start building subways, even if (like in Toronto's case) they only run 4-5 miles and have a handful of stations. Once you start the system you can keep expanding it as money becomes available.
Remember what light rail is:
"a tram is just an incredibly costly bendy bus on an incredibly costly dedicated track to which it has dangerously low adhesion and which prevents it passing, diverting or being passed"
- The Times, February 08, 2003
Build more AEC Routemasters!
The traffic south of Minneapolis is terrible. I think a lot of people will get out of their cars and use the light rail.
On the other hand, we can look at SEPTA's routes 100, 101, and 102. These provide good transit in the suburban areas past the Market-Frankford line's 69th street terminal where population density doesn't necessarily warrant heavy subway service. This is an example not only of a good niche for light rail, but also of how light and heavy rail can be productively integrated. (I do think an extension of the MFL to Broomall or maybe a park-and-ride where Westchester Pike meets I-476 might be warranted, but the areas that routes 100, 101, and 102 go I think are served well by light rail.)
I guess my point is that every mode has it's place, and sometimes we pick the right mode, and sometimes we don't.
Mark
From what I can recall of Phoenix (I was there for a week last August), major employment centers appeared to be quite dispersed. North Scottsdale seemed to have almost as many office buildings as downtown Phoenix. Light rail can be more appropriate than heavy commuter rail for that type of situation.
BRT is even better, since buses from various origins and destinations can use an express busway for part of their trip. Not so for rail.
Rail only pays is you have at least 200,000 in a concentrated area. Only a handful of U.S. cities have this, and all but LA have rail. Of course, it's hard to achieve that without rail.
BRT busways with exclusive ROWs can be quickly converted to rail if the land use changes around them to support it. That's what happened in Ottawa.
What about Metrolink?
AFAIK, Ottawa's Transitway hasn't converted to LRV or heavy rail. The light rail line (O-Train) that just opened uses Canadian Pacific trackage. It doesn't connect to downtown yet, so the line is lightly used.
I've used Ottawa's Transitway, and it's a great system. Some of the underground bus stops look like subway stations. It's BusTalk heaven and Subtalk hell.
*********************************************************************
Instead of building their cars from Paper Mache they are switching to wallboard and instead of getting their electrical parts from a junkyard they will go to second hand stores.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#Bombardier
*********************************************************************
Note that by ports they mean North Jersey Ports. I guess that people forgot that Camden desperately needs to upgrade its port rail facilities from nothing to anything.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#New
*********************************************************************
The investigation showed that the engineer had nothing to do with the design of the cheap piece of shit lightweight ICE train.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#Engineers
*********************************************************************
Given the state of european locomotive construction I'm surprised the train wasn't destroyed. I guess that the busses are built so light themselves to make the Eurocrap stock more than a match for them.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df05122003.shtml#Dozens
Of course that bus could have been lighter than an American counterpart, just engineered to take the force and not kill everyone, same for the locomotive.
Build Smarter, Not Heavier
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2414503391&category=6737
(I didn't see this on here...if it was and I missed it, please forgive me!)
Chip
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
That Friday, I drove from the Kennedy Expressway and enjoyed watching the Blue Line O'Hare Branch L trains and the Loop skyline. Then heading south on the Dan Ryan, I saw the Red Line trains before heading to the Indiana Skyway. I Paralleled the South Shore Railroad for many miles without seeing trains.
I arrived in a downtown Cleveland hotel that night, and walked to Public Square the next morning and rode the entire Red, Blue, and Green lines. I enjoyed watching the nice big homes in Shaker Heights along Shaker and Van Aken Blvds. On the Red Line (except for the area around East Cleveland and University Square), I was surprised to see a lack of housing and apartment developments around the stations.
Later on Saturday evening, I drove to Pittsburgh and parked my car at Washington Square Station. I railfanned the LRT down to the end of the line at Library. I loved the interurban feel, and the flag stops that are behind home backyards and at the enterances to apartments. Because I was running out of time, I did not have an opportunity to take the train into downtown Pittsburgh. Energized on Red Bull, I reached the motel in Fort Washington at 1:00 a.m. (outside Philly). The next morning, I parked my car at the Fort Washington station, and rode the R5 to 30th Street Station and back.
I arrived at my new apartment near White Plains later, and crashed out of exhaustion. The next day, I parked my car at Purdys, and rode the Metro-North to GCT and back.
Now living in the East Coast, I look forward to railfanning in Boston, Philly, Baltimore, and D.C. I also plan to drive to Buffalo and ride its LRT, then head to Toronto and railfan on my next vacation.
Fully Equipped with FRA Part 223 Glazing When Built New? (I have seen this on most passenger railcars on the LIRR and MNCR that I have rode, and I imagine that every passenger railroad has these stickers in their cars.) Thanks in advance.
Adam (ENY Nova 5205)
Part 223 glazing is nothing really that fancy. It has to shatter in certain ways and withstand certain forces. These include a .22 long bullet and various sizes of pebbles moving at slower speeds. However, if a large brick or branch or cinderblock hits a cab window it will probably penitrate and injure the engineer.
Hmm, I wonder if the Hudson exit signals are to be taken out of service. They are PRR amber's.
you can read the text of 49CFR Part 223
At this point to respect this matter as an off-topic thing, please email your response in private.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We assure you, they all look alike
==========================================
I didn't find this one at an MVM or as a discard. It is on ebay!!!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2174423481&category=4152
That is total B.S. and they know it!
As a railfan, I must condemn the message on that card.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Every subway car is special and unique in its own way. Why else would we have hundreds of photos on this site! Specifically, take the example of some R-42 cars that I think have different style seats than the rest of the cars. If you are like one of our fellow posters here who doesn't like the way the regular R-42 seats feel, then he may want to move to the next car to sit on better seats. And there you have it, that next car was not the same as the previous one and the person had a good reason for moving. So the 2nd part of that safety message is wrong. Note: replace R-42 with the correct car class if I got it wrong.
Speaking of R42's, I was perusing your own site when I cam over this baby...
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/R-42/PDRM1601a
Sweet! But the only thing is what that yellow diamond sticker is for?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill "Newkirk"
Carry babies and strollers on stairs.
It's good for your biceps.
"Curb you dog on the street! Not on the Subway tracks."
"They Might Get Fried."
Robert
Go before you leave home.
So you don't have to go between cars.
Going your way -- the safe way
Bill "Newkirk"
Robert
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
The number of draggings reported by the press, anyway :^)
Speaking of draggings, how is it that more people aren't dragged to their deaths in Boston? There must be three inches of rubber on the doors on their RT cars. Last Sunday on the Blue Line, I saw someone get on with a mountain bike, stand it up on its hind tire, jam the thing sideways into the door rubber on the opposite side, then leave it to go sit down... you could see light between the doors!
I just wonder when the rehab starts for the Flushing platform of the complex. I have seen NO indications that rehab has started there. The BMT Broadway section, in the other hand, already has stairwells boarded up. I'd imagine those black-on-white signs' days are numbered.
If you want an all-time urine smell, go to the IRT Flushing part of the station. :) BTW, I'm wondering once they rehabilitate that part of the complex, where will they put the new elevators?
It appears that street access will be from near the newly reopened entrance on 42nd between Broadway and 7th, and a ramp will lead up to the wide passageway just east of the IRT between 42nd and 41st. The ramp and signage is visible through the cracks between the blue plywood walls west of the new escalators.
OTOH, 9 trains are generally relabeled 1 trains; skip-stop stations have longer headways during rush hours than they do most of the day on Sunday. Ridership is spread much more evenly among the 1/9 stops; there's no large peak at the end of the line. And skip-stop on the 1/9 only saves a maximum of two minutes to begin with. When I ran the numbers, I found that the average passenger loses time due to skip-stop on the 1/9.
As for express service, I don't see how it can work. The stations between 96th and 137th are much busier than the ones north of 137th, so it wouldn't make sense to give them less service. The 1/9 moves fast between stations, and the express would only bypass four stations before having to merge with the local -- figure about two minutes saved on the bypass but one minute lost on the merge, and four busy stations lose half their service in exchange. If anything, some trains should drop out at either 137th or Dyckman, allowing for more service south of 137th than is currently provided, but expeditiously emptying out trains at 137th or Dyckman then becomes the challenge.
I know there are express tracks along the route somewhere and maybe they could be put to use.
Had it not been for the 3 track/2 track/3 track arrangement and if island platforms were built then I would say the chances increase greatly but forget about it, it won't happen :-(.
Isn't Queens Plaza an underground IND station? I think you meant QueensBORO Plaza.
I know it's a lot of questions, but I appreciate any input, thanks.
R32 - Sea Beach Express
-What do crews do at terminals, do they take the same train out that they pulled in, or take a different one (like NYCS)?
they usually switch ends or change crews
-Is contolling an M1-M7 similar to that of say an R32 series car (with a separate master controller and brake control)?
no. m-1-3 have a r-68 type control
M-7's have a shift type control, like a car's transmission for the propultion
-Do all LIRR/MNRR engineers have to be qualified for diesel and electric trains? no idea
R-32
Assistant Conductors collect tickets, and make announcements and occasionally operate doors when asked to by the brakeman/Conductor. the Conductor operates the doors, is QUALIFIED on Physical Characteristics as required by FRA, and also operates doors. he/she also deals with any problems by getting down on the roadbed. he communticates with RTC(Railway traffic control) and he communicates with engineers about how many cars he will use, and he is the BOSS of the train.
one crew i know in Metro North(because i work there)
he reports at 530. hangs in Engineer crew room after signing in. gets on the train around 5:55 and takes out the 6:10 Poughkeepsie. arriving at Poughkeepsie by 7:40 or so, because it is express, and Cortlandt is its first stop. anyways he leaves Poughkeepsie around 830 or so. returning to GCT by 10:18. the equipment returns to poughkeepsie as the 1102 while he goes to LUNCH. he then takes out the 11:20 Croton harmon local morris heights first stop. all stops to harmon arriving by 12:15. depart harmon by 12:20. secure the train and he clears by 1am. Days off FRIDAY SATURDAY
now this is a subway motorman style timetable. My uncle does it daily M-F days off sat and sun. his timetable has him running the R train.
he reports to city hall yard by around 300pm. departs yard wrong railing uptown into the downtown canal street. some pullman(Motorman) brings him down to whitehall middle track and gets off. my uncle then sits in whitehall till 419 when he becomes a R local to continental av till queens. arriving 5:15, someone boards his trains tailcar, and helps him relay, as train arrives in manhattan bound R platform, he gets off, and goes to lunch from 520-6pm. take out 606 R to 95th street. arriving at 95th street by 736. hang out till 755. take out the 759 R train arriving back to continental by 925. take train to jamaica yard and layup. clear by around 1020. i would LOVE a schedule like that once i qualify as a Train operator once i pass the exam, but my uncle has a 1989 senority that cant be beat almost.
TIA.
(Sorry, I can't answer your questions, though.)
Mark
Yes it does.
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/boston/mbta-crmap.html
Sorta.
There is a standard LIRR-style third rail providing 750VDC.
The reaction rail is provided between the traction rails for the LIM system to operate, but there is no requirement that trains running on the AirTrain track use linear-induction technology. Plain vanilla electric traction propulsion would work just fine. So would a light diesel.
Mark
avid
Linear induction systems require a very stiff track modulus otherwise
the air gap becomes uncontrollable.
-Robert King
The signalling system being used is a moving-block form of Alcaltel's SELTRAC. It's a CBTC-based system that's been deployed elsewhere.
Mark
Avid
Propulsion Inverters: 2 IGBT inverters per car
Service braking regenerative dynamic, supplemented by electro-hydraulic disc brake system
Steel underframe with painted aluminum roof, sidewalls and bulkheads
Truck (bogie): Fabricated steel, forced steered
Performance and Capacity
Maximum Design Speed 110 km/h 68 mph
Seated Passengers 26 per car (plus 2 wheelchair locations per car)
Capacity per Car, Passengers with Luggage 71 standees + 26 seated = 97 total
(With standees @ 2.2 passenger/m2
(5 sq.ft./passenger), seated @ 2.3 passenger/m2
(4.75 sq.ft./passenger)
Capacity per Car, Passengers without Luggage 179 standees + 26 seated = 205 total
(With standees @ 5.4 passenger/m2
(2 sq.ft./passenger), seated @ 2.3 passenger/m2
(4.75 sq.ft./passenger)
It varies with the type of equipment and the line they operate on.
The numbered lines (1 thru 7 and 9) are ten cars long. Each car is 51'4" making the train 513'4". These cars are 8'5" wide. The only exception is the 42nd St Shuttle which operates 3 trains - 2 of them are 3 cars long, the other is 4 cars long. This is because the station platforms are these lengths.
On the lettered lines the cars also vary:
Some cars are 60' long and operate in 10 car set ups on some lines, 8 car setups in others. On certain off hours it has been known to operate some line with 4 car trains in particular the C line.
Some cars are 75' long and operate in either 6 car set ups or 8 car set ups depending on the line.
There is no mixing of 60' cars with 75' cars.
All the cars on the lettered lines (except the 42nd St Shuttle) are 10' wide.
Yes, it does have a lot to do with the volume of people but in some cases where the cars operate may depend on the weight of the car and the clearance on curves.
Adam
Then again, she was surprised when I told her the line would probably be Redbird-free before the end of the year.
If anything, I'm pretty sure anyone can hunt this set down (or more, if I missed them), considering how small the (7) line is.
The 5 has 390 assigned cars. It took about a year (or less?) to transition from all Redbird to all R-142, and that was with some distractions from the 2 and 4.
The 7 has about 250 Redbirds remaining, and each R-142 that arrives bumps a Redbird off the 7. If the R-142's come in at an average rate of one 10-car train per week (and I think they usually come in faster than that), in half a year the R-142 order will be complete and the R-36's will be history.
I wish it weren't so, but that's how things look.
Our only hope in 2004 is the 58 reserve R-33's.
Remember that overall West Side service was reduced, and the 3 was the only express. There was greater demand for the additional car and some extra cars were available.
This has not been the case for years.
Peace,
ANDEE
But passenger volume is greater here in NYC, given that NYC is higher in both population and in population density. And of course the NYC subway is quite extensive in its coverage (though there are places that don't have service and really need it) It makes for more folks needing to use the subway and warrants longer trains (but we do have a few shuttle lines that run short trains). Car and platform lengths also dictate how many cars per train can be run.
Probably if the Orange Line were ever extended to Readville or further south along the Amtrak line, it might need eight-car trains.
Wow, I didn't know Siemens was making heavy rail cars, is there a site with pics of these?
The BMT system was built to handle wider cars (10 feet wide versus 8-foot 10 for the IRT), but those stations also were originally shorter than what you see today. The first BMT stations were built to handle trains that were either 470 feet long (eight 67-foot BMT Standards, the system's original fleet) or 535 feet long (nine BMT Standards). The IND system, built mainly during the 1930s by the city, was designed to handle 600-foot long trains -- 10 60-foot cars -- and some stations were even long enough to handle 11-car trains (though no IND line runs trains that long nowadays).
Eventually, the BMT and IND systems were combined, since both lines ran 10-foot wide rail cars. About two-thirds of the BMT stations were lengthened to handle 600-foot long trains due to passenger usage, while the remaining one third of the stations -- on the J, L, M and Z lines -- remained at 480-feet (8 60-foot cars) due both to less usage than the other lines on the system and the fact that the 75-foot long railcars New York began buying in the 1970s could not make several of the sharp curves on those lines.
Given the crowding on the east side IRT lines, if the MTA could, it would probably lengthen the IRT stations again, by 50 or 100 feet to handle 11- or 12-car trains. But like the L/J/M/Z routes, the structure of those lines, especially at Grand Central and Union Square, makes adding additional length to the stations prohibatively expensive.
No big problem at Union Square: extend the downtown platform northbound and the uptown platform southbound. But GCT would be a killer.
Because it's too damn expensive, that's why!!!
Paying $4 each way just to go from one borough to another is ridiculous, actually highway robbery!!!
Do you prefer reducing the tolls to the cost of maintenance and increasing subway fares to cover the eliminated subsidy?
Or do you prefer making the bridges toll free, using taxes to maintain them, and increasing subway fares to cover the eliminated subsidy?
Or do you prefer increasing taxes to cover the transit subsidy that the bridges now provide?
All 3 are options as a substitute for the toll increase.
Option 4:
Impose a toll on all bridges and tunnels connecting to Manhattan Island in the entry direction
Eliminate all exit tolls from Manhattan and all tolls on all bridges which do not connect to Manhattan Island.
In the long term, who knows?
Scarey thought!
The MTA was created for the specific purpose of removing Robert Moses from power, he did not wish to have any part of the MTA.
Paying $2 for the same system with little improvements to go from one borough to the next is FLAT OUT ROBBERY and the steps the MTA took were way offline!
Many others disagree. I have sometimes had the misfortune to try to drive from Westchester to Manhattan as a Yankee game was letting out.
Masses of cars go down the FDR and exit at 63rd St for the Queensboro Bridge.
Or at least tolls that vary by time of day, with higher tolls when congestion tends to be high and lower tolls when congestion tends to be low. The Port Authority implemented such a system for E-ZPass users in 2001. I wonder why B&T is keeping its flat tolls. (Were variable tolls even considered?)
Inflation's a bitch.
And yes, it was satire, I have no maids
Your argument makes no sense. Why should I pay $1.50 or $2 to go from 145th and Broadway to City Hall when I used to be able to do that for only 5¢ and only one train with far more comfortable seats.
Have you noticed the new rolling stock on the L, 2, 4, 5, and 6 lines? Have you noticed the refurbished stations at places like Times Sq and 72nd/Bdwy, and the totally rebuilt station under construction at Stillwell Avenue? Where do you think the money to pay for these, and many other improvements, came from?
Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Thats when the TA will attempt for the 3rd time for the new alignment between Sutter Ave and Broadway Junction on the Manhattan bound tracks
BTW-The General order this weekend is due to the new signal system
Thank You
Once again the .pdf details are different than the service advisory.
Robert
Robert
The train was running late. I will not reveal the train's top speed here. Email me if you're interested.
R-32
R-32
http://www.wnep.com/Global/story.asp?S=624130
--Mark
This is a big rarity!
The Fisk Interlocking fiasco. I remember it well. M-1's with the purple 7 barely seen behind the tinted storm door glass. Also all lavatories were locked because these were the special shuttles and not the regular Port Wash trains. Confusion rained supreme with ordinary #7 riders accidentally boarding regular Port Wash trains, confused Asians not leaving the train at Main St. when annoumced on the P.A. That's why I called it a fiasco !
Bill "Newkirk"
It sounds like an interesting situation. I may try it out.
Adam
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I'd love to see some M7s on the Port Washington. The seats are OK, having been replaced just a few years ago, but there's an accumulation of dirt and gunk on the window vents, and the windows themselves are filmy. Let's have an M7 unit.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Bases on my observations, the work is sporiadic. Very slow in terms of 3rd rail/express track replacement and the signal/interlocking replacement is ongoing forever at 111th/Willets Point/Main Street.
All in all, hectic indeed. Anyway, I look forward to that LIRR thingy next weekend. Should be a perfect photo opportunity.
R-32
I've always thought of the Port branch as a de facto, albeit more expensive, subway route and it was even more so in the past, when Corona and Elmhurst were still open.
It's a fascinating LIRR branch, urban and gritty from Penn to about Broadway, when it gets suburban; at Manhasset and Plandome it's fairly rural.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I will be there this Sunday morning, hope to see some other foamers there.
Don't forget about this. If I go out of town on Sunday then I will ride this Monday afternoon. If I stay in town on Sunday, I will ride it on Sunday.
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
I once rode a 6 train and the announcement thanking us for using NYC Transit several times. I think he did that to impress us. :)
I've heard the "Thank you for riding MTA..." message when the train I was on was going through a river tube.
I think its to make people feel better about their ride and relieve stress [right!]. I understand the purpose of the do not hold doors message but there's no reason to repeatedly play the "Thank you for riding with the MTA" message :-).
I've only heard the repetitive announcements when passengers do that, and basically it is to send a message.
This has been speculated about at length.
I think it must be pretty low. Looking at http://www.globalmerchant.org/, they offer to process credit card payments on behlaf of internet companies.
Their rates are:
$.30 per transaction + 2.39% of the gross
I think the MTA should be able to get a much better deal than that.
Some credit card PAY their users 1% of the gross, so the merchant charge is probably never less than that. I would make a wild guess that the MTA pays $.15 + 1.25%.
Posted on:5/16/03 5:07:07 PM
Due to a Police investigation at 42nd Street-Times Square, Downtown and train service is running local between 72nd Street and Times Square.Of late, I have noticed that minor police investigations have been short, especially in key locations like Times Sq. where you have police presence. Something like fighting passengers, homless persons, and the like will get resolved quickly.
The interesting aspect is, the lights never manage to completely turn off. They "flutter" until the train has third rail power to power them again. The HVAC and the blowers would turn off when the lights fluttered also. Is there a reason for this? Are there emergency lights on the M1A's and M3A's?
Is this a series of phase gaps or something I am not aware of?
Yeah, gaps. As in, the third rail stops running alongside the track for a bit and then shows up again a few feet later. You'll find these commonly in interlockings, where the power rails would get in the way of switching, and at grade crossings.
As for the fluttering lights you described, that's due to the motor-alternator spinning down. When an M-1 or M-3 loses third rail power, the HVAC cuts out and the emergency lights come on, but the main lights won't go out entirely until the M-A stops supplying power. If the gap is short enough, the lights won't extinguish entirely.
Mark
Well, this luck was not to hold as once again we were hammered by the Connecticut Crawl. I can't say exactly where we were delayed, but as the whole New Haven line is a giant construction site we were constantly slowing down for one thing or another. I did see an MNRR GP-35m pulling a train of dead M-2 cars, but I did not know if that contributed to our many delays. The icing on the crap cake came when for some unknown reason (probably the MNRR dispatch getting his sadistic jollies) we were platformed on track 5 at New Rochelle. That's right, we crossed all 4 mailine tracks just to pull into that 15 mph little siding on the south side of island platform at New Rochelle. Why??? I don't know, but we burned about 20 minutes waiting for an NB Amtrak train to platform accross from us and then some more for an unknown reason. While we were waiting a S/B MNRR local stopped at the platform we SHOULD have stopped at. Why we just weren't allowed to platform and then LEAVE that god dammed Metro North territory is beyond me. Sticking us in that 15 mph siding for 20 minutes just 1/2 mile from Amtrak territory only shows the contempt MNRR has for Amtrak.
Other than this the trip was pretty uneventful.
Possibly, there was only one track in service on Amtrak between MNRR connection and Pelham Bay.
Michael
Washington, DC
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Ebay Item # 3416552101
Bill "Newkirk"
8 Avenue Local
Queens Express
And is the only R32 to have signs that have this display (rest have Queens Blvd 8 Avenue). This R32 should be running on the E, if not, then maybe the F or R, but I'm pretty sure it's a "native" to the E line. I saw this R32 at Union Tpke today and would have snapped plenty of pics if I had a camera, which I sadly don't. =(
Also, 3806/7 have the same signs. But there are no others. Thanks for letting me know that there were other cars with what I thought were the proper signs for the E. The only problem is that this doesn't work out on late night runs. Speaking of which, why are the F rollsigns different (on the 5-8 R32 F trains run everyday)?
Ada
But this doesn't compare to the time I saw a R32 on the R with a sign set as a brown diamond R. The sign changer was probably told to change it to "R" but setting it to a brown diamond R is a little bit crazy!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
-Dan
www.nyrail.org
BTW, does anyone know of a good Mac OS X photo-to-webpage utilty I can fully custoimize? Thanks.
Arti
If anything, it's sad to see some of the vandalism the new R143's get. Already, I see rampant scratchiti, those overly common 'dirt' marks on the doors themselves (they can also be seen on the R142/A's. I believe they are caused by dirty shoes), and some little-time graffiti in one case. Why are these new trains being vandalised anyway? It seems some people aren't happy with their new trains. I would, but I'm just content with my remaining Redbirds and R62A's...
For a forum about urban transit, its participants know surprisingly little about vandalism.
People vandalize for the same reason that dogs like to piss on certain trees or fire hydrants. It marks your territory, it's “cool.”
They don't care what kind of train it is, the fact that it's new and clean just makes it more palatable, there are no old markings that interfere with it.
The Vandals were a Germanic tribe that sacked Rome in 455 CE.
Attention MTA graphics department!
What/Where does the OTHER track lead to....... which line does it belong to?
My guess is the N to Astoria.
Actually the tunnel portal, the track that you're talking about, that is the mainline. You - being on the R train took the spur, the turnout. You see that was the original BMT leading outside ( to Queensborough Plaza ) . Then in about 1948 they built the Queens Blvd. line, and the turnout that the R takes was made as a connection.
R-32
R-32
R-32
R-32
Robert
Norristown, PA
Can you provide photos?
-Mark
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Bauman proposed simply extending the J/Z to 9th Avenue, and turning it there. The ride from Broad Street to Pacific is 11 minutes at rush hour, so extending the J/Z means putting 4-5 more trains on the road during rush hour (two in each direction). The express run from 36th to Pacific takes six minutes, so if the J/Z were to run light from 9th Avenue to Pacific figure 2-3 more trains would be on the road. That means about more seven trains, or 42 more cars, would have to be run. In fairness, 2/3 of this cost would be absorbed even if a new turnaround were built at Atlantic Avenue, cutting out the 36th to Pacific deadhead. Then again, Bauman's suggestion would mean an additional walk relative to the IRT.
It is true that zillions are being spent to widen the passageway from Atlantic Terminal to Pacific Street. If the cross-under was more attractive, what are the chances that (with advertizing) if BMT service were much more frequent, LIRR riders would choose to go to Altantic Avenue rather than Penn and get on the BMT rather than the IRT?
It's all part of this "Downtown revitalization" frenzy being stirred up by Brookfield and others. Concerned about the way some large companies have moved out of Downtown since the attacks, the Downtown revitalization groups like the LMDC are basically grasping at straws, trying to come up with ideas. Faster commuting times for suburbanites is just the latest one of these. It's anyone's guess what will be next.
Lost in all the shuffle is the fact that Downtown's office-vacancy rate is actually lower than most large downtowns nationwide. In fact, the rate today is no worse than it was as late as the middle 1990's - Downtown's "boom years" were really very few, starting around 1995 or 1996 and lasting only until 2000 (the vacancy rate had been rising before 9/11). Finally, the vacancy rate's been dropping somewhat in the last several months and absent a major slump will probably continue to decline.
In short, we have expensive, unrealistic solutions being proposed for a problem that (1) is not terribly serious, and (2) will most likely get better on its own.
Downtown's transit infrastructure has had essentially no investment since well before World War II, unless you count the replacement of Hudson Terminal, an event that added no new capacity. New York is the most transit-dependent city in the United States. Transit investments are peculiarly the province of government--no one else can make them. A few billion dollars, though an astronomical sum to any individual, is peanuts compared to the urban renewal it can generate.
Had the "no-build" attitude prevailed a century ago, we would have no subway.
In what sense are downtown transit connections poor? Virtually from any point there's less walk to ANY trunk line than in some parts of CBD.
Arti
That last statement is true, but you need to measure the total length of the commute, not the walking distance between the office and the subway station. Numerous studies have been done, comparing commuting time from various residential communities to downtown/midtown. For an awful lot of people, the midtown commute is shorter.
In an earlier post, someone said:
Downtown's "boom years" were really very few, starting around 1995 or 1996 and lasting only until 2000 (the vacancy rate had been rising before 9/11).
Downtown's true boom years were before WWII. It was once the nation's largest central business district, and it is now the 3rd largest. I do not mean to suggest that under-investment in transit is the sole reason for this. But it is one of the reasons.
Downtown's true boom years were before WWII. It was once the nation's largest central business district, and it is now the 3rd largest. I do not mean to suggest that under-investment in transit is the sole reason for this. But it is one of the reasons.
Midtown has leapt past Downtown to take over first place. Yet, what major transit projects has Midtown had in that period?
- 6th Ave Chrystie connection.
- IRT 59th St express platform
- Numerous improvements to what is now MNRR
- 63rd St tunnel
- Lengthening of the BMT platforms
No single speactacular thing, but there has been a major increase in the ability to move passengers to midtown by rail (and bus for that matter).
It's a well know fact that CEOs like to move their companies to shorten their commutes. Many CEOs in the 50s through 80s saw the expiration of their office leases in downtown as an opportunity to move to somewhere near Grand Central and cut 20 minutes off their trip to work.
More recently (say from 1970 onward), of course, they have moved their headquarters out into the suburbs where they live.
There is alternative to more transit investments for the suburbs -- better public schools in the city. Many of the executives who now live in the suburbs might then consider homes in the outer boroughs, in areas such as the southern rim of Brooklyn. Then, as suburban housing hits age 50, 60, 70, some of it could be subdivided to become home to the region's poor, particularly those who already work there.
Just a thought.
Improving public schools doesn't get rid of the poor, it's getting rid of the poor that improves public school.
Call me a classist all you like, but it's true. Schools spending is generally equal in all districts in New York City, and yet schools in middle class and wealthy neighborhoods, even ones that are overcrowded always perform better.
I wouldn't consider any of these really major, except for Chrystie Street. They aren't going to account for the increased growth of Midtown vs. Downtown. I would say the main reason has to do with Midtown's bigger blocks and wider streets, which allows for the construction of buildings with larger floor plates and less of a closed-in feeling. That, plus the increasing likelihood of CEO's to live in Westchester and Connecticut, as you mentioned. The main point is, transit doesn't account for Downtown's (relative) decline.
At present, not. But as I recall (don't have the data handy anymore) 200,000 people work on the Upper East Side. A lot more than, for example, Downtown Atlanta.
Not much can be done about it as for some people Midtown is geographically closer. Again for Brooklynites Downtown is closer, so what's your point?
Arti
My point is that things can, in fact, be done to make downtown a more attractive work destination. That's the idea of the governor's and the mayor's proposals. Mind you, I've nothing against midtown--it's a gorgeous area--but it's essentially built-out. Downtown represents a growth opportunity.
So far most of it deals with making Downtown allegedly more attractive to Longislanders. The only meaningful thing IMO is the transit hub idea.
Arti
None like 2 Broadway, with the possible exception of the New Jersey folks, who were screwed by 9/11. The signals divison was previously in Midtown; Downtown Brooklyn or Long Island City would have been great for the Long Island folks, less good for the New Jerseys. In general, CPM staff spend as much time as possible in construction field offices closer to their homes.
New Jersey is the place of residence of choice for those working Downtown. For example, my wife's co-workers at the Federal Reserve Bank of NY overwhelmingly live in Jersey. Why? You don't have a one-seat ride, but you do have an easy transfer to an empty train at Hoboken or Newark. Or to a ferry.
For city workers who are required to live in the city (virtually no one these days -- does Bloomberg live here?) Brooklyn is the residence of choice, since it is closer to the civic center.
An easy option to provide to LIers.
Arti
I thought of that. Back at DCP, when asked to come up with low cost suggestions, I proposed extending rail lines to the waterfront, then relying on watercraft on the rivers for north-south travel. These ideas were extensively vetted on Subtalk a few years back.
The LI connection would be to extend the Atlantic Avenue Branch down to the water, where dedicated ferries timed to the train would bring people to the foot of Wall Street, South Ferry, and Battery Park City.
Other than Wall Street, government and the insurance industry, downtown hasn't been considered a prime location. The overwhelming majority of workers downtown were back office staff. The insurance industry (other than AIG) pretty much shipped out the back offices 10-20 years ago. Wall Street has been shipping them out (though still in the metro area) more recently. These decisions had very little to do with transit and much more to do with the cost of rent, cost of employee benefits (mandated and unmandated) and the perceived quality of the employee pool.
To me, downtown seems destined to become a hub for government with a residential interior unless something changes to draw back office jobs back into the city. Otherwise, I don't really see that NYC has a pressing need for 2 CBD's anymore.
CG
Downtown probably will retain a core of "front office" jobs in the securities industry, with some others in insurance, law, and so on. Lower rents as compared to Midtown also are likely to attract smaller and newer businesses. Combined with the growth in residential uses, my prediction is that Downtown may slip some but will always remain an important business center.
Having a type of job leave New York City is a leading indicator of having it disappear altogether.
Companies started moving back office jobs to the suburbs, to take advantage of the white housewife labor force, in the 1970s. In the 1980s, such jobs were located out of the region. In the 1990s, information technology wiped out tens of thousands of such jobs in the city, a process that still continues. For example, a new international payments bank will eliminate the need to reconcile millions of foreign exchange transactions.
The only back office job that remains is person to person contact. This work is being exported to India.
Which means that most types of back office jobs which leave Manhattan are doomed anyway. Taking that to the next step, it could be argued that spending billions improving Downtown transit, in the process keeping back office jobs from leaving, is just postponing the inevitable. Of course, the transit proponents will claim their plans will preserve front office jobs too, but accepting the under-sentence-of-death scenario for the back office jobs reduces the need for the transit plans.
The fallacy of the previous post, is the belief that transit investments downtown are being taken to get the back office jobs back, and/or to prevent more from leaving. More accurately, there is a recognition that those jobs are on the wane, and it's time to make the investments to make downtown competitive for other types of jobs.
Each to their own viewpoint. Trends change. The HUGE amount of transit infrastructure in downtown will sooner or later attract companies that ain't there already. What's the most famous symbol of business in the world? Wall Street. That's the name they know in Iowa, and Kansas, and California, Illinois, Maine, also England, Japan, Germany....this is NOT a worthy asset?
Also, there's there's the value of being "located in the Financial District". Valuable names, important locations.
Plenty of room on 7th and 8th Aves for more office space. Also on 10th and 11th Aves if the 7 extension gets built.
If major tenants are willing to accept street rather than avenue addresses, there's also ample mid-block space.
I presume Midtown is 1st, so what's 2nd? Chicago?
Correct.
I would dispute the "exodus" claim. Even if you count the "soft space" (which isn't unique to Downtown) and the upcoming lease expirations, Downtown's vacancy situation is not terrible. As far as the falling rents are concerned, that's a nationwide issue. Yes, Downtown's vacancy rate would be worse if it hadn't been for conversions, but so what? Downtown's becoming more of 24/7 place with residences, not just a 9-to-5 business center. I see that as good.
Lastly, bringing this all back on topic, even if we were to concede that Downtown's in rough shape, blaming it on poor transit connections is wholly missing the point. Downtown's transit situation is no worse today (excluding the temporary interruption of PATH) than it was during the boom years of the late 1990's, or for that matter than it was when Downtown was the city's main business district in the 1950's. Fact is, Downtown transit is pretty good indeed.
Yes, but IINM it had just lost a lot of El connections.
More people work in offices in Midtown than in Downtown, but they're spread over a much larger geographical area, moreover an area with wider streets. Hence the greater "bustle" apparent in Downtown. There's nothing new about that.
As I see it, the reason for all this hoopla is that, in the wake of the 9/11 attacks, the Federal government allocated $20.6 billion to help redevelop Lower Manhattan specifically, not New York as a whole. Of that sum, $4.55 billion was earmarked for transportation, to benefit Lower Manhattan specifically. This despite the fact that Lower Manhattan is extremely well developed and probably has more subways per square mile than any other place on Earth.
Given that the money is available, it surely will be spent; somebody will get the benefits and somebody will make the profits.
Hence the grandiose Fulton Street Transit Center "Taj-MTA" project, connections from Lower Manhattan to all three airports, one-seat service from Lower Manhattan to Jamaica, and sundry other projects, have been dreamed up as ways of spending the money that the Federal Government so generously donated.
New concerns have been found to "justify" the new plans. So all of a sudden there are concerns that visitors may find it too confusing to transfer between trains at Fulton Street, that suburban Long Islanders may be spending too much time to commute to Lower Manhattan, or that it is vital for all three airports to be connected to a "grand point of arrival" in Lower Manhattan.
Left to itself the Transit Authority might prefer to spend the money in other ways; the Mayor might prefer to extend the #7 to the Javits Center; upper east siders might prefer a start to be made on the Second Avenue Stubway. But the Federal money is earmarked for Lower Manhattan, so those other projects are not eligible.
The Subtalk Atlantic Avenue subway plan seeks a better way to provide a better service to Lower Manhattan, but I feel sure that most Subtalkers, unlike the infamous Br**kf**ld, are not trying to line their own pockets!
CG
Hey, I wrote it in. It didn't make the cut.
1. Do as currently planned in 2004.
2. In 2004, run the W and R as 4th Ave locals and terminate the M at Broad (preferably) or Chambers, even in rush hour. Advertise this heavily to LIRR commuters. This would mean 16 tph on a single route between Pacific and 4 stations in Lower Manhattan. While it would be a shame not to have Nassau-Dekalb service, it is better than splintering the Montague service between the R and M, because then in the PM there is lousy service from both lines. The current trains running through the Montague are very uncrowded anyway, and will only get less crowded once the MB opens fully. LIRR commuters would be getting on at Pacific just where the 4th Ave local riders switch to an express over the bridge.
3. Connect the LIRR tracks with the Montague so that you can run direct express subways from Jamaica Station to Dekalb, continuing on through the Montague. This will also entice some Jamaica riders who insist on taking the E to downtown away from the Queens Blvd line. It's also probably cheaper than making a new terminal at Atlantic.
All else is not worth the money for the benefit received.
The Brooklyn Branch and Hunterspoint used to be a cheaper ticket (it was called Zone 1-B) but the LIRR discontinued this for no better reason than they didn't want to be bothered with conductors selling or chopping step-up tickets when people with 1-B tickets used Penn.
When they did this it accelerated the long decline in usage of Flatbush Avenue station. Why in the world would someone want to pay the same fare to go to Brooklyn as to go to Penn and then pay another full subway fare to get to Wall Street, when the time via Penn is similar, the 1/9 and 2/3 are less crowded than from Brooklyn, and the service from LI to Penn is more frequent, direct and convenient?
So try this: Have a zone 1 LIRR ticket include the subway fare, but only if you get on at Atlantic Avenue. Try it for six months and see how travel patterns change.
I agree with you Paul. And one more thing. They should absolutely implement MetroNorth to Penn when LIRR to GCT opens. And, they should discontinue the discounted combined commuter rail/subway fare at Grand Central. Program the subway turnstiles at Grand Central not to accept those tickets. You want to get on the subway, go to Penn.
Only problem: no plans to spend the big bucks (not so big in my view) to connect the Harlem line to Penn. But they can drive to the Hudson line if they have to.
At some stations you can wait quite a while while a train unloads. At 5th Avenue going south in Bay Shore for example, you can wait seemingly forever while a train picks up a laod of Fire Islanders gong home.
On topic to the subway, the E105 crossing was strictly manual.
First, the gates use a combination of timers and island circuts. The island circut is basically the segment of track that crosses the road and 3-5 feet on either side. On low speed trackage this is the prefered method of grade crossing protection. The train just edges forward onto the circut then waits for the gates to drop before proceeding. If you combine this with a timer as to handle non-stopping trains, the gates will drop as normal, then after a certain amount of time the gates will raise back up at which point the train has to use the island circut method.
Second there is the conductor control box as was mentioned in a previous post.
Third, the gates could be interlocked with the signaling system so that the gates only deploy upon the home signal not being at STOP. This way the gates drop when the train is signaled to leave.
On the San Francisco peninsula, many of the commute stations were surrounded by grade crossings. The gates would go up as soon as the train stopped, if it was not on the crossing. To get the warning devices to activate again, the engineer had to blwo the horn full blast! There were microphones next to the track, about the height of the locomotive roof, which would "hear" the horn and start the gates working again.
You might want to take a ride over to the Aberdeen-Matawan station on the Coast Line. You will see the conductor control boxes on the platform, and when an eastbound train comes in, most conductors will turn the key so that the gates will go up while the train sits in the station. And just before the conductor passes the signal back to close up, he/she will turn the key to bring the gates back down.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
www.mvra.org
John
It's a fine system, and I'm proud to say that Misty Dawn Sizemore, Vice-president of Lost & Found Operations, recommends The Third Rail.
ROTFLMAO!
"British Lard Marketing Board"??? That shoulds alot like the American Association of Hot Air Enthusiasts, better known as the US Congress.
Who I might mention do have their own subway.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
http://www.nvta.co.uk/
A train system in the UK where the fare is paid in Dollar$ ?
Is this for real?
My sympathies ...
John
I'm the creator of the Nearbug Valley Transportation Authority.
It is indeed fictional, but it is not US or UK based... in fact we're out of South Yomodorin, which is somewhere between Atlantis and Dinotopia! ;)
We have the fares in dollars because it's what I'm familiar with... and I had to do all this work creating a whole town, fictional names for things, why bother creating a currency too?
I'm a resident of the SF Bay Area and a HUGE fan of MUNI, Bart, Caltrain, and VTA light rail... so I suspect there will be the occasional topic on such here.
Boriqua is a good friend of mine and is slowly and surely getting me aquainted with NYCT Subway lines and the LIRR, but it's a lot to take in!
Tim Frost
NVTA Subway routes for BVE:
http://nvta.co.uk
Bay area pretty much explains it ... I'm in upstate New York myself, same kinda laid back without the tremors ... well ... ours are smaller than yours - best we've done was a 5.5 rattler last summer.
And you might consider going off the gold standard and onto the tuna mousse standard ... 'You will do exactly what I say Dog.' 'I will do exactly what you say Cat.' You will buy me 100 tuna mousses with your own money.' 'I will buy you 100 tuna mousses with my own money- hey cat- what's a tuna mouse??' 'Oh I give up! Tuna MOUSSE! You will stop being an IDIOT!' 'I will stop being a -hey! I'M NOT AN IDIOT!!'
Moo. :)
I actually had called the city Nearburg but an unfortunate accident with my web page designer had all the maps and headers saying Nearbug so I just changed it, no harm done. =) It still holds to its original meaning for me at least.
Bedtime...right after I run down to the... *forgets the name of the supermarket in CatDog* for some Tuna Mousse... but I think I'll like it here! =)
What exactly is that? Another sick, risque insider Subtalk joke?
Reconnecting the Vital Sea View Link
In early 1974, during the construction of the Blue Line, the lack of an efficient link between Sea View, a Seaside
community approximately 40km to the East of Nearbug became painfully apparent when the Catdog Blimp crashed
into and destroyed the Highway 470 bridge over the Nearbug canal. Residents of Sea View became stranded from
their jobs, as the next nearest alternate route around the canal was over 70km out of the way. Downtown
businesses were strangled as only small portions of their staff were reporting to work. When surveyed, the residents
of Sea View and outlying commuities were very receptive to the idea of Commuter Rail and voted in favor of a 2%
increase on county sales tax to help fund the project. Construction finally began on Sea View Central Lines'
two-track mainline in 1976, following the hasty rebuilding of the Highway Bridge. The 41km route was completed in
1977 and opened for revenue service late that year, following the leasing of 8 E-9s and 56 single-level Budd coaches
from the now-defunct Union Pacific passenger lines. A set of 8 Budd RDC-3s were also purchased for weekend and
special trains. Two of the E-9s are still in active service today, and two more are being rebuilt in an effort to maintain
the last few of these magnificent machines in existence.
Sure it wasn't a link to the Second Avenue Subway?
Note that British Lard is Y2K compliant! :)
Paul: The Third Rail is a fine magazine. However acticles about the Dayton Metro would probably be found in the Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Rail Magazines.
I understand that at one time it was planned to connect the Dayton Metro to the Staten Island Rapid Transit at Wentworth Avenue which was the reason for the ramshackle nation of the platform there. They didn't want to install a more permanent structure until they knew what the track configuration would be.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Haven't you ever ridden that connection? "This is Wentworth Avenue on the Dayton Express, next stop, 76th Street." (groan) ;-)
BTW I've been to Dayton several times and the only electric transit that I could find were the tracless trolleys.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry, I don't know too much about the B&O service to St. George, only I've heard it was done. I don't think they ever brought any name trains ("the Royal Blue"--how many people remember the B&O trains that competed with the Congressionals for Washington traffic?) there. I would think the route via Jersey City was faster because of the shorter ferry ride.
BTW I've been to Dayton several times and the only electric transit that I could find were the tracless trolleys.
True. Surprising how few trackless operations are left.
I was told this was done during World War II when the B & O ran troop trains. This was to transport soldiers into NYC to board destroyers, aircraft carriers etc. to head of to Europe. My friend who works for Staten Island Railway says he's never seen a photo of this troop train, but claims they ran. It was probihited to photograph anything relating to the military during the war. He was told by oldtimers that B & O steam engines pulled those troop trains.
Bill "Newkirk"
--Mark
R-32
SOrry for interrupting all of the train buff's out there with this...but I need to try to reach him and I know he'll come sign on soon!
ANNIE
R-32
I learned about Miami Valley Rail Authority when some one posted the web site URL on news:misc.transport.urban-transit back in 10 06 2000.
You can read the whole thread at http://groups.google.com/
There are a number of threads that have come up about the Dayton Subway over there years.
Here is what http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Dayton+Subway+group:misc.transport.urban-transit returns.
John
You have all been suckered.
Same as Adam Paul's Baltimore Transit Company
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I wonder what standards were set up to justify the recently vote that this is the 'the most reliable system in the world.'
If that doesn't do it for you, try their legal notices.
R142 1166-1170 down at the North Channel bridge. Unfortunately I didn't have enough time to get the polarizing filter off and the telephoto lens on, or I could have had a better picture of it coming over the bridge.
Evry time a Cyclops sings, a Redbird gets its wings...
I think you mean water wings !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Why do you ask dumb questions?
Also, I reserve the right to make up words using Ancient Greek and Latin roots. Use an Ancient Greek dictionary.
2) I wasn't trying to get anyone mad. I was asking a very simple question.
There are devices for A div cars travelling on B div lines. I forgot what they're called, but they're provided so transfers don't run unprotected.
If these devices are not available, then a TSS must ride the train.
Anyway, it's nice to know Amtrak is doing this.
Well, based on my brief passage through the station yesterday I noticed some interesting changes. All the remaining old 30's verticle supports were being sheathed in tile with NJT coloured tile stripes midway up. The stairways,which used to have open space beneith them, now have cinderblock storerooms that are also being covered in tile with the NJT motif. Can anyone else (Chuchubob perhaps) elabourate on this?
Also, they are comming along with the Haddonfield station rehab as well. They replaced the 60's style, yet totally unnoticable large picture windows with small 18 inch squares (probably for replment cost reasons). Also, the ticket machines have been moved onto temporary stands and many of the benched that were outside the building are now inside. This combined with the removal of the Newsstand has really opened up the interrior, but to what end I don't know. The old roof treatment has the egues of the roof sort of consist of an inverse logarithmic style concrete curve. Well, this has been totally "boxed" and then painted sort of a tan colour.
Whatever their plan the Haddonfield station has gone from an unobtrusive "blah" to a noticably wired structure. Frankly I prefer the blah.
Speak for yourself. I would not want to be photographed on the train without my permission, and no doubt many other people think the same way.
I'm SURPRISED "having a permit" gets consideration from SMaster.
Arti
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What does it mean when AMTRAK is "resignalling"?
...is this the only place where trains have to wait for other trains that are going in opposite directions at any time and place?
Well the way that question is worded, it could include Park Place in both directions.
There used to be many more places, of course. One of the last to go was the crossing of the Sea Beach and West End north of Coney Island Creek until the bridge there was doubled in the '60s. Until about 1958 Brighton-Franklins had to cross over the busy Brighton Line in order to relay.
Of course, different kinds of special or non-revenue moves (such as an N having to come in on the W track, before the station was demolished) would force a crossover in opposition to traffic.
Here are the projects that have been put on New York City's plate since 9/11/01 and have either begun or have yet to begin (in no order of importance):
1) Bringing the 2012 games to New York (and with that, extending the 7 to the Javits Center from the North and possibly the L from the South
2a) Making a decision on what gets built in lower Manhattan and finally build it
3) Lower Manhattan transportation hub (and with that comes a possible extension to the LIRR and the creation of the 2nd Ave line)
4) Connecting the LIRR to Grand Central
5) AirTrain to JFK
6) Construction of a new Penn Station in Manhattan
These are just 6 I could think of immediately. I'm sure that there are others. The question I bring forth for discussion is this:
How are we (the people of NYC) going to pay for it?
I understand that the federal government is giving us some money. But, with NYC bridge and tunnel tolls to $4 ($8 on the Verrazano), the NY-NJ bridge and tunnel tolls to $6, and the NYC Subway to $2 (with increases as well to LIRR and Metro-North)... how much more money does the city actually have to pay for all this?
If NYC wins the bid for the 2012 games, would all that construction be actually worth having the games here? Yes, there will be visitors and money coming in (albeit 9 years from now)... but there will also be a lot of congestion in an already crowded city. I attended the 2002 games in Salt Lake... and some of the crowds there were overwhelming. I would love to see the 2012 games in NYC, but at what cost in money, time... and (something many of us New Yorkers don't have) patience?
I apologize for the ramblings. I just don't want New York to have it's own 20-year Big Dig. Have fun discussing!
-- Dan
PS: About Boston... I haven't been there in 3 years. Any progress on the digging?
For all of the details on the progress of "Big Dig" point your web browser to http://www.bigdig.com
There is this idea that the rest of the country will feel bad for us and stop taking out billions more than they pay back in. We'll see.
Just to put this in perspective, the annual income of everyone living in New York City is about $275 billion. It takes at least $5 billion of that just to maintain the transit system as it is.
There's also an idea that Santa Claus comes down chimneys with toys, that the Tooth Fairy puts coins under the pillows of children that lose baby teeth, that the Easter Bunny ...
Peter: Santa stopped coming down the chimneys years ago when everone moved into condos, now he takes the elevator like the rest of us.\
The Tooth Fairy is recovering from gunshot wounds at a hospital in Des Moines, Iowa. It seems she entered the home of an NRA member without permission when she tried to placed some money under his kids pillow.
We all know what happened to the Easter Bunny. He was busted for placing all his eggs in one basket.
The Great Pumpkin had better watch out.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
That's because you were 4 when the 70s ended.
Peace,
ANDEE
# 3 (Fulton street and Path) transit hubs are being paid for through money FEMA allocated for WTC recovery, the recovery effort at the WTC finished months earlier than expected and about $3 Billion under what was allocated. NYC got permission to use the excess recovery money to "improve" existing transit infastructure downtown.
# 4 President Bush directed that this project get a "favorable" rating for the next round of Federal Transit funding, which is in the process of being renewed.
# 5 Already paid for through $5 dollar airport improvement surcharges added onto every airline ticket, it's going to open later this year.
# 6 Money was allocated by the Department of Transportation in 1997 under the Direction of then President Clinton. The money is already allocated for the project, the delays have come through negotiations with the Post Office to vacate the facility and switching contractors.
#1 is the only project that the City itself will actually be paying for, the City is going to set up a new agency to issue construction Bonds. The bonds will be paid through increased tax revenues, parking, concessions , licenses etc issued in the redeveloped area.
Robert Wood Johnson has pledged $600 Million of his personal fortune towards the new Stadium.
And let's hope when all is said and done... NYC will look better than ever.
If NYC wins the bid for the 2012 games... there will also be a lot of congestion in an already crowded city.
The last plan I saw had the games scattered all over the place. Soem events in the City, some upstate, some on the island.
I think that will test visitors' patience more than New Yorkers.
Bronx is upstate?
The only out of city venue for the Olympics will be the Meadowlands.
I'm not a great fan of bringing the Olympics to NYC, but to the organizers' credit, their design concentrates the events in a much more compact space than many recent Olympiad. Viewed strictly for the events' "compactness," the NYC bid is actually better than most others.
The reason you've never seen it in such disarray, is because your only 27! Believe me, this 58 year resdident has seen the city MUCH worse.
Peace,
ANDEE
Economists predict our city will experience the same boom Sarajevo enjoyed after the 1984 Games.
C-4 or plastique?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A lot of us railfans know the embryonic name for the 149th/Concourse complex is Mott Avenue. The Mott name is probably in common use among employees. But WHY would the PA announce it as such, when doing so would completely confuse the average rider? I did see some eyebrows go up at its mention. The PA went on to say that those desiring downtown Lex service should transfer from the 2 at Mott Avenue.
Just think, some people might be led to believe the 5 now runs to Far Rockaway, where there's a much more famous (and contemporary) Mott Avenue.
Come to think of it, the average rider doesn't know what the term "General Order" means when it's announced in lieu of the more user-friendly "track work".
Could it be that the TA is reviving the old name of Mott Avenue for the 149th/Concourse complex? Not very likely, given how old Queens street names that have been replaced by numbers are being rapidly phased out.
One conductor who insisted on announcing the term "General Order" actually berated the confused passengers for not knowing what it meant.
I have heard a few conductors use the Mott Avenue name in their announcements, once on the #2 and once on the #5.
wayne
When this GO usually happens, the 5 basically runs in 2 sections from E 180 St-Dyre [the shuttle] and Bowling Green-149 ON THE 4 TRAIN PLATFORM. This is better known as the mystery GO since it tends to come out of nowhere thereby confusing passengers and sometime the crew.
I'm sorry I had to do this like this...but I knew that you'd be online soon to check out your favorite website. I may not know anything about trains or understand why you're the train buff that you are..but I do listen ..and I do watch...and I know that this is my only chance of reaching out to you or someone who will relay the message. I don't even care if people think this is ridiculous....I hope they see it as TRUE LOVE..because that's all I have for you!
ANNIE
Peace,
ANDEE
(Battery Operated Boyfriend)
-Mark
Maybe you will if you stop moping around and blaming everyone else for your misfortunes.
As far relationships are concerned, wives and girlfriends put gray hairs on you. As soon as they can get their hooks in you, they try to change you into something they want, not what you want. Female friends keep you on your toes.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Robert
Robert
Ayup, cab blessings aren't just for Father Cosgrove anymore. :)
Put it this way: those of us who are single can still celebrate Independence Day and Thanksgiving Day.:)
You should stop concentrating on mystical chix, as that strategy isn't working. Besides, I've never quite figured out why so many men have a fetish for them.
It isn't awful NOT being married however you need to stop feeling sorry for yourself and get out there and find a girl, geez........
You should write for WCW, brah....
As if I was really serious with my post!!!
Jimmy :)
What do you mean by that? I got an e-mail from the webmaster, reminding me of my password. Trouble is, I hadn't forgotten my password, and hadn't e-mailed him asking for a reminder.
What's going on?
Sorry.
What is this crap doing on anyway? It's bad enough that we have political talk integrated into transit (but that's another thing) and now we have this relationship thing. r-10, keep your relations somewhere else. There's something called email. You may want to try it sometime. Heh, Mr. Pirmann must be rolling over himself right now. :-/
This is not a curse. It is a rarity :)
--Mark
;-D
Best of luck Annie
Jimmy aka Arrow III( formerly brooklyn)
A quick search of the archive shows your fiancèe only posted here six times, from April 22-26; he may not even still be reading. Since he was here such a short time, I doubt anyone here knows him personally.
I wish you the best of luck. Painful as it is, sometimes it's best to just move on.
Arti
And if it ain't, lemme say this:
Darlin', this is one of the worst things to do to a guy. Messin' with his Subtalk. No no, you don't wanna do THAT! Better you "accidently" bump into him on the street somewhere. But don't screw with his train set.
Arti
All the individual white tiles in the first "E" of Avenue and the surrounding green tiles are gone!! The base background is visable. You can easily see that other tiles are loose and it is just a matter of time before the rest of this ancient name tablet is completely destroyed.
I could not see any evidence of what caused the damage but it only happened within maybe one or two months.
I will send a note to the Transit Museum, maybe they can get to someone to prevent further damage.
If anyone else has some contacts who can do something, please let them know. This is the only name tablet that was not covered by metal "149th St-Grand Concourse" signs and it would be a shame to see it falling apart.
wayne
With SubTalkers changing their handles maybe you ought to change your to: Dept-of-tile
Bill "Newkirk"
How about R-6-2 1233?:) No, not 1277.
Not to besmirch anyone who is doing there jobs but it looks like that when the tile fell from the Mott Avenue tablet, the fallen bits may have been swept up by the sweepers. Let's hope that someone held on to them (maybe gave them to the station agent to hold) for the repair people.
Down at De Kalb Avenue they're doing rehab on the existing 1913 friezes,and are engaged in all out repair war with the station ceiling (that's why the Circle Q is in the Montague Loo) but the white tile in the English Chase pattern is GONE. They've got a mighty job ahead of them down there!
wayne
While that is a reasonable explanation but that sign is almost 99 years old (the station opened in November 1904), how come this didn't happen sooner?
wayne
Jimmy
David, I doubt this information is in the FAQ, but it should anyway.
I mean, with names like Green Hornet and Zephyr, what's Hippos and Rhinos? :)
They never made adhesive strip maps for the 'S'and it would not make much sense because they would have to remove them when equipment is rotated.
That must be a hell of a yard move for 2 of the 3 trains!
Eh, just my guess
Incognito
Have you ever noticed the absence of scratched windows on the Shuttle ? They always seem to change the windows and keep the cars really clean too.
Bill "Newkirk"
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Never thought 2 stops could be so complicated.... :
2. Making a sticker map for the grand central shuttle is a waste of money and time for obvious reasons.
3. I belive the MTA is going to change the signals some time in the future.
Why doesn't the TA run this OPTO? The T/O could easily walk the length of the train while the cars load. Easy way for the TA to save money.
And, does the T/O work an eight hour shift ? The thought of a full day going back and forth would make me lose my mind...
Rich
As far as the TA is concerned the GC shuttle IS OPTO. So is:
Rock Park Shuttle
Grand St Shuttle
Midnight A Shuttle (Lefferts-Euclid)
Midnight N Shuttle (86-Pacific)
Midnight 5 Shuttle (Dyre-E-180)
Weekend M Shuttle (Met-Myrtle)
The others escape me at the moment
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I understand that their was a crowding issue when the G was run OPTo on aturdays. But the headway was about 10 min.
All that needed to be done is add an extra train or two per hour(not to mention improve signage and customer education concerning where the train stops)
Two Operating Personel Train Operation
Jimmy :b
Now imagine sitting in a token booth... At the some time people flock to that job too.
Arti
Heh, some S/A's like the slower ones so they could take a little nap too ;-).
Arti
NY Lotto sell lotto tickets through third party vendors
Or install lotto ticket terminals in all remaing booths to give the S/A something to do other then nod off.
Man quest to create technology to free man from mundane tasks so that he can pursue more intelictual endevors
The unions leaders greedy for union dues to support thiere lavish lvestyles seek to keep thier workers working mundane jobs so the memebers minds grow num and fail to see all thier union dues foing into a black hole, thier taxes going up, the price of food and housing going up.
At the end of the day they wonder were all thier money went
That's a gross oversight, creating positions of lotto selling agents would provide a perfectly good job with excellent benefits for thousands or even tens of thousands of people. Perhaps the price of the ticket would go up few bucks, but what the hell it's not my money.
Arti
"creating positions of lotto selling agents would provide a perfectly good job with excellent benefits for thousands or even tens of thousands of people"
No it would spell the end of NY Lotto due to it oosting more to operate then it brought in
Your plan would generate NO revenue for the state,the whole purpose of running the lotery system is to generate moeny for education.
Result in fewer places to buy tickets.
Result in lower jackpots
Result in fewer lotto tickets sold.
Plus removing a drawing card to get people in the door of hndreds of reatailers who sell lotto tickets resulting in fewer newstands.
Not to mention creating a fertale market for organize crime to run thier own numbers racet offering players more money for the some odds
Prior to NY lotto startin it's daily number, the local moffia guy ran daily numbers.
Creating jobs that are not needed reults in chasing pricate sectors jobs sector jobs out of state reducing tax revenue to all.
«Your plan would generate NO revenue for the state,the whole purpose of running the lotery system is to generate moeny for education. »
But it would, those employed by lotto have plenty of money to educate themselves.
Arti
So,Simon Legree is alive and well. Why would anybody want healthcare,vacations,hours of service guidelines,safety regulations,overtime and to be paid for services provided to the employer. I guess we should be like our fore-bearers and be thankful just to be employed. Hope you recognize some good old fashioned Brooklyn sarcasm when you read this. Signed a Union Employee.
Agents are like the people in this room. Some can take the criticism and the bull. Some can't.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
yet another reason why the job of fare selling by a S/A at a booth is unnneded.
If the straphangers campaign wants a person at each station all day, the person should be out of the booth, providing security and other functions for passengers.
Personally I don;t see the need for a person at most stations at all
Path does not have any booths.
Your local bus stop doea not have anyone selling metrocards
Why the need to have a person selling cards at each station, especially lower volume stations in the middle of the day.
Certain things shouldn't be cut. Simple as that. We need the human presence. The NY subway system is not a commuter rail system. It's not an national rail system. It's an urban people mover of the highest order. Call it what you will; EVERY station in the system needs at least one attended booth. That's the nature of the subway system.
You can lay statistics on me until the cows come home. Won't make a difference. I've been riding subways for over 40 years now. The aggregated "knowledge" I've acquired along the way has led me to the conclusion that you don't want ANY station to be, uh, boothless. It isn't a "luxury". The inherent dynamics of the transactional and operational process called into play at "entry into system", ISTM, requires a manned booth as focal point. Not "a guy" wandering about the station. That seems almost silly as a concept. For one thing, it'll be more dangerous for that person.
With all your knowledge I guess you never wandered over to NYC other subway system PATH which opetate's without a fare sales booth and handles more traffic at it's manahttan stations then many NYCT transit stations.
Or to your local bus stop where there is no booth to sell fares.
Face the facts most commuters buy more fares per transaction due to metrocard discounts and the price advantage for unlimited rides under the new fare structure.
Add into the fact that single ride customers must use the machine and thier is little or any use for fare sales clerks.
"It isn't a "luxury". The inherent dynamics of the transactional and operational process called into play at "entry into system", ISTM, requires a manned booth as focal point"
Not true at all, for the manned booth is not required at PATH, DC METRO and many NYCT fare controls that opearate without a booth currently.
95% of riders entering fare control already have thier fare. Riders buying single rides can not buy them at the booth. Plus retailers sell the cards directly outside stations.
What inherit dynamic requires a booth. At many stations especially in manhattan along the broadway line, lex local and the like, riders prefer to pay by credit card and avoid the booth.
Non, I could venture to bet you don't even live in NY for some time and are completly out of touch with the times
The booths are a luxury we can no longer afford to pay for. The majority of the riding public as judged by thier spending habits agree.
The money is better redistibuted to areas where it is needed. Better MVM maintace, increased securtity
also concidering the city concil is concidering requiring all companies employing more then 50 people to offer transitcheck metrocard, the number of people using tooken booths will decline further. Concidering that it only cost about $48-50 after tax dollars to buy yearly transitchek metrocard unlimited vs $66.80 cents for a PPR ride metrocard purchaced at an MVM, local retailer or tooken booth, most commuters will have even less need for someone selling fares.
The subways are not a bus. To compare them to buses is not equitable.
The subways are not the PATH line. A minor resemblance, that's it.
I was not saying a fare-selling booth was the ONLY way to acquire "entry rights" into the system. There should always be multiple ways to get into the system. But each station still needs the presence of that booth.
You can only reduce expenditures so much.
Speaking of being out of touch! You think the average New Yorker is in the 28% Federal Income Tax bracket?
(NYS and NYC tax doesn't count since the standard deduction there is so high that very few New Yorkers itemize deductions on a state level. FICA also doesn't count.)
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
9333,9332,9330,9468-9,9362-3,9536-7,9329,9331,9326
-Mark
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
These cars only logged 32 years service.
A number of new M-7 have been sighted, with car numbers as high as
7075-7076. Don't know when they'll show up on the Babylon line.
wayne
I swear, I spotted some new R62A sets running last friday with RFW on both ends!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Peace,
ANDEE
You should do a railfanning trip on the Sea Beach line eventually, Freddy. It's sad to see what condition it's in!!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
It was an amazing feat to move this building to the fenced in lot and back to it's original location without the whole structure crumbling into a pile of bricks. Job well done.
Downstairs, the Lex. Ave platform was closed with all #4's running on the #2 & #3 track. Seems they removed the temporary staircase wooden barriers and were placing re-bars so concrete can be poured for the rehabbed staircase. Things are coming along on the IRT side, but upstairs it looks strange seeing steel work rising above where the old Flatbush Ave. terminal once stood. It's about time !
Bill "Newkirk"
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Looks as if nobody told the gang to say "Moo," for the photographer.
We did kinda figger out who the shify-eyed guy in the vest & hat is. -:)
It was a genuine pleasure to meet all of you. Sorry I wasn't feeling too well -- I jumped on Amtrak and went home and right to bed. I'm feeling MUCH better today, I think the antibiotics are kicking in.
(If anyone wonders....I'm the one with the blue shirt, light grey pants and khaki jacket.)
You HAVEN'T aged a day, brah!!! :) :)
Chuck Greene
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Arriving! (Right click, Save Target As...)
Leaving! (Right click, Save Target As...)
Enjoy!!!
Was it around the time the center portion of WF 9306 passed the lens?
I know I saw a R33WF, and a R12, what were the two other Museum Cars in that consist?
Three of those four cars originally ran on the Flushing line. AFAIK 6609 never polished the rails on the 7.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I don't mean 2 sound cheap, but the MTA screws around w/ our fares & service, so getting a little discount from their store, although not equivelent in any way, shouldn't cause a huge dent in their revenue...hehe.
People who work there are BRIGHTER than certain names up in this here shindig....
Ya thinks?
http://nycsubwayline.com
8-) ~ Sparky
Our "Token" tees were just selected as a "Best Bet" by NY Magazine's
on-line Best Bets last week. We can't keep them in stock now!!
Cool!
Subway grrl
Hope you like them!
Subway grrl
--Mark
Dude, Staples.com coupon codes are da bomb!
---Choo Choo
1- Take all NYCT operations out of the montague tunnel, and have all Brooklyn trains run to canal on the local track, thus allowing a subway type service directly to Downtown
2-Same as above but keep NYCT in the tunnel, and have an atlantic-canal shuttle via montague, to a new platform at the lirr terminal so commuters dont have to go up and down through a station to get the broadway local at atlantic
3-This involves rerouting the M mostly, have the M as a brighton express, heavily advertising the fact the M is down one flight of stars of the escalator in the terminal, but the M may not get as far west as it should
4- The W should be extended to Brighton beach peak hours, which provides a broaday local under the LIRR section- remember the 4th av is at pacific, which is a nice walk from the LIRR, but the brighton is just underneath, and has an already operational escalator from the LIRR to the Q only- no transfer
5-closing the IRT transfer to the LIRR at Atlantic and forcing to transfer to the BMT
Not good. No direct connection to Downtown for the BMT. Plus, this would be close to too many trains on the bridge.
(2-Same as above but keep NYCT in the tunnel, and have an atlantic-canal shuttle via montague, to a new platform at the lirr
terminal so commuters dont have to go up and down through a station to get the broadway local at atlantic)
That's my idea, sort of. I'd just extend the J/Z to Atlantic, but have extra trains available northeast of Chambers and at Altantic so that LIRR riders could be assured of catching their train.
(3-This involves rerouting the M mostly, have the M as a brighton express, heavily advertising the fact the M is down one flight
of stars of the escalator in the terminal, but the M may not get as far west as it should)
Only one train every ten minutes. Too long a wait. The idea of extending the J/Z is that it would be one train every five minutes.
(4- The W should be extended to Brighton beach peak hours, which provides a broaday local under the LIRR section-remember the 4th av is at pacific, which is a nice walk from the LIRR, but the brighton is just underneath)
Same as above. One could propose sending the J/Z down the Brighton, but there isn't enough room for that AND the regular Brighton service.
B = 8 TPH
J = 6 TPH
Q = 8 TPH
Z = 6 TPH
Total = 28 TPH
I think the Brighton could (maybe) handle 28 TPH, but the problem is not that but rather where to send the J/M/Z trains. With rolling stock constraints they probably won't make it much further than Prospect Park, and there's no way for 12 TPH of J/Z trains to terminate in front of 8 TPH of B or Q trains. Even if you cut some service, like shortening V train lengths to 6 cars, the farthest the J/Z could go is Kings Highway, meaning express B service would have to end there, stopping at Neck Rd and Ave U, creating an unneccessary merge.
The fact is, there is nowhere to turn such service, even if it ran lite south of Atlantic. And running it on 4th Ave is not convenient for LIRR commuters (the long walk at Pacific) or else the current M/R would suffice.
Walk or no, here is the problem with the M/R. This is based on my experience working Downtown.
I can walk to Whitehall and take the R to 9th Street and change to the F. But that could be an eight minute wait. Or I could go to Broad Street and take the M. But that could be a ten minute wait. So I go to Whitehall, and if the N comes first I take it to Pacific and change. But come February, the N won't be there.
Now, imagine if I had to catch a train at a specific time at Atlantic Avenue. I'd have to leave enough time -- 25 minutes plus once the travel time, the walk time, the wait time AND a potential delay are factored in. Maybe more.
In contrast, imagine the J/M/Z all running down the Nassau Line, with put-in trains waiting north of Chambers to cover any gap in service due to delays and trains terminating at a new station right at the LIRR stop. It's just a three minute wait, since you could always take the M if it came first, and there is less risk of delays. So you can cut it closer, and maybe it would be better than going to Penn or Grand Central.
Now imagine the J/Z kept running right out to Jamaica on the Atlantic Avenue branch for a cross-platform transfer. See what I mean?
They could buy some ALP46s, slap some variation of the late New Haven colors the FL9s wore on them, and run the whole line electric, hopefully with a future extention to Providence, Rhode Island, closing that gap in NEC commuter service. The ALP46 has been giving good service to NJT after initial tranformer problems, and appears to offer near MU service with the slight savings that a locomotive push pull train provides, and it has none of the HHP-8's truck hunting and Acela related problems.
With such a setup ConnDot could operate Providence to NYP trains via Hell Gate, running express from NYP to say, stamford or New Haven, and local after that. I'm assuming that with the coming of ESA for the LIRR some slots in the East River tunnels might open up, which would be perfect for slipping a few Connecticut bound trains down through Long Island. It might even take a few hundred passengers headed to GCT off the Lex and put them on the 1,2,3 or A,C,E trains for Penn.
Any thoughts?
Plenty!!
It comes down to cost, cost and cost.
A) Shore Line East gets somewhere around 1400 riders a day. That's hardly worth the multi-million dollar investment you would propose.
B) Though ConnDOT owns the ROW from Pawcatuck to the State Line, Amtrak controls the catenary and its upkeep from New Haven eastward. They would charge ConnDOT on some kind of per useage basis, just like they do to SEPTA, NJ Transit and MARC. Those bills can add up.
C) ConnDOT would be on its own to provide the equipment and ONE juice jack can run well over $10 million. Cab signal and (on most cars) frequency differentials prevent MNRR New Haven Line equipment from running east of the Division Post at Fair Street, so ConnDOT is forever stuck with whatever they provide for Shore Line East, or if need be some pool equipment from MNRR used on the shuttles (Waterbury, Danbury).
These are just three reasons among the many I wouldn't expect to see Shore Line East electrified anytime soon.
Much the same line of reasoning, though varied and magnified, applies to MBTA Commuter Rail between Providence and Boston. I seriously doubt you'll ever see that electrified either.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jtr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Couldn't that be expected to climb after the introduction of a one-seat ride to Manhattan? There must be people out there who currently work in Manhattan or at least Stamford who desire something more than what SLE currently provides, and as such are using I-95 to get where they need to go.
If ConnDoT owns the tracks, can't they just try to gouge Amtrak at the next renegotiation of Amtrak's rights on the SLE branch if Amtrak tries to gouge them for power? Everybody has to use Amtrak's power elsewhere, theres no other choice, but they manage to get by, why would it be any different for ConnDot on the SLE?
I'm assuming 'Juice Jack' means Locomotive, in which case NJT's ALP46s came with a price tag of 4.7 million a pop. And, as far as I know, there is absolutely no way M-2s,-4s or -6s could run past New Haven State St, due to the frequency changes that you mentioned (They might have changeable taps, so in the shop they could be changed over to permanent SLE service, but can't do it on the fly), nor should they. MUs are best suited to stop and go local service, not any kind of express running. For that a push pull set is by far better, they've already got the cars from the current service, why not make use of them in a better role?
For that matter, why didn't ConnDot buy more P32DM-ACs from GE and use them on the SLE? They could run direct GCT-New London just like the Danbury and Wassaic runs, and running express would suit them just fine, since diesels suck for acceleration.
And yes, it will cost money, maybe 20 million dollars at minimum, just running NYP-New London, and really only if the crossing of the Thames river in New London cooperates. Heaven forbid a transit agency should pay more than a pitance to provide service to it's customers. How many people ride the Danbury and Wassaic lines? Why should those people get more service than the people out beyond New Haven?
Though ConnDOT owns the ROW from Pawcatuck to the State Line
That’s not too much ROW, and do you mean the RI state line or NY state line (where it owns from there eastward to New Haven, plus catenary)? Last I heard, Amtrak owns the ROW from New Haven eastward to the MA state line. If CDOT owned the ROW, that means that Amtrak’s ownership of the NEC drops from 80 percent (last figure quoted, the true figure) to somewhat less than 60 percent.
Shore Line East gets somewhere around 1400 riders a day. That’s hardly worth the multi-million dollar investment you would propose
Well, that’s to be expected when one is riding in a train that consists of badly-riding converted SPVs hauled by a Geep…not to mention low frequency of said service plus no one-seat ride east of New Haven. Change some of those factors and you may change the potential ridership. Not to mention that very few trips still terminate at New London.
And as for investment not being “worth it” based on a line’s current ridership? Now you are falling for the political spin created by transit agencies to avoid investing in a line.
ConnDOT would be on its own to provide the equipment and ONE juice jack can run well over $10 million
“Juice Jack”??? LMAO…must be some new railfan term I never heard of. I believe that railroad employees call them “motors”, and as for the true price, read W. Dobner” reply regarding the ALP-46. And are you claiming that the CDOT would not be able to secure federal funds for such a purchase? Other state DOTs do.
Cab signal and (on most cars) frequency differentials prevent MNRR New Haven Line equipment from running east of the Division Post at Fair Street
Voltage differences, not frequency, which is the same at 60 Hz. CDOT’s catenary is at about 11kV while Amtrak’s is at 25kV. Not to mention the fact that the M2/4/6 MU cars cannot stop at low platforms, having doors for high platforms only. The voltage difference can be overcome by having automated variable-tap transformers like Amtrak’s equipment has. Indeed, it may be possible that the MUs have this capability already—after all, they do switch from DC third-rail to the AC catenary east of Mount Vernon. The signal systems and platforms would need to be upgraded, granted.
Much the same line of reasoning, though varied and magnified, applies to MBTA Commuter Rail between Providence and Boston
Since you bring them up, it has often been noted that the necessity of moving trainsets between different lines would not help the case of providing electric motors for the Attleborough Line.
That’s not too much ROW, and do you mean the RI state line or NY state line (where it owns from there eastward to New Haven, plus catenary)? Last I heard, Amtrak owns the ROW from New Haven eastward to the MA state line. If CDOT owned the ROW, that means that Amtrak’s ownership of the NEC drops from 80 percent (last figure quoted, the true figure) to somewhat less than 60 percent.
It could be I am mistaken, it's been years since I read the NEC Guide, but I believe ConnDOT owns ROW from RI to NY State Lines. As you say, they definitely own it from Division Post, New Haven, to the NYS line. I know that ConnDOT (aegis MNRR) also owns and maintains the catenary from NYS line to Division Post, while Amtrak very definitely owns and maintains it from Division Post all the way to Boston. I can vouch for this first hand from the electrification project.
What the significance of the percentages are I don't understand. If the line east of New Haven is Amtrak-owned, there is even LESS of a probability the service will be expanded. ConnDOT has already tried to kill it twice, and if you remember it was supposed to be temporary to begin with.
Amtrak places many demands on ConnDOT to upgrade and maintain its equipment and facilities for Shore Line East, of which to date only the equipment has been brought up to some semblence of contemporary spec. Amtrak snared several million in federal funds to upgrade the stations at New London and Old Saybrook within the past couple of years, and though ConnDOT gets incidental benefit from these projects, their financial participation was limited and reluctant.
Amtrak has been after them for years to upgrade the ConnDOT platforms at Westbrook, Madison, Clinton, Guilford and Branford to improve accessibility and operations, and though the state has pledged to do so time and again, it has thus far failed to do so. ConnDOT DID add the new station at State Street, which seems like a prototype of sorts, but it generally is separated from Amtrak's operations. In fact I was informed last Friday that a recent bill to fund $5 million in improvements at each SLE station has failed again in Hartford. These would fund small high platforms on both sides, complete with crossovers and elevators, similar to Old Saybrook. The existing stations (1990) were intended to be temporary and greatly impede NEC operations in the area. Its clear that SLE just isn't high on ConnDOT's list of priorities, and they have freely admitted as much several times through word and deed.
"Shore Line East gets somewhere around 1400 riders a day. That’s hardly worth the multi-million dollar investment you would propose"
Well, that’s to be expected when one is riding in a train that consists of badly-riding converted SPVs hauled by a Geep…not to mention low frequency of said service plus no one-seat ride east of New Haven. Change some of those factors and you may change the potential ridership. Not to mention that very few trips still terminate at New London.
And as for investment not being “worth it” based on a line’s current ridership? Now you are falling for the political spin created by transit agencies to avoid investing in a line.
To respond to your second query first, I am not at all sure what you mean by an agency's political spin. Fiscal reality is fiscal reality. Shore Line East is a sole ward of ConnDOT and by short extension, the State of Connecticut. Like everywhere else, the news is simply not good from a financial perspective for ANYTHING and no amount of re-prioritizing, even if it were possible, is going to change that.
As for the exisiting conditions, I reference my remarks above about Shore Line East's historical standing within ConnDOT's list of public transportation assets. However, there are many other factors which constrain any growth potential for EITHER Amtrak or Shore Line East.
First and foremost is the problem of open warfare between the railroad(s) and marine interests, who have now successfully limited Amtrak's total number of bridge closings per day, per bridge. Another is the local zoning legislation in Shoreline communities, which is deliberately configured to restrict and even reduce (if possible) the amount of residential and commercial development an expanded rail service would bring. Both are heavy disincentives for expansion (or even retention by some standards) and that's BEFORE you even start looking at Amtrak's operational constraints vis-a-vis its own trains, SLE, P & W, etc. This line does not have , and will not have, the same kind of growth potential that exists west of New Haven or elsewhere on the NEC because of local fastidiousness. I as much as anyone wish this were not the case, but that's the way things are.
"ConnDOT would be on its own to provide the equipment and ONE juice jack can run well over $10 million"
“Juice Jack”??? LMAO…must be some new railfan term I never heard of. I believe that railroad employees call them “motors”, and as for the true price, read W. Dobner” reply regarding the ALP-46. And are you claiming that the CDOT would not be able to secure federal funds for such a purchase? Other state DOTs do.
Juice Jack is actually a very old railfan term for electric motors, such as the New Haven's EP series. I don't know about the ALP-46 but I do know that MARC's cost for HHP-8s was upwards of $6-8 million a piece, less many of the bells and whistles their Amtrak sisters contain. Even if such a hypothetical acquisition were formulated, ConnDOT would be forced to subscribe to Amtrak's operational standards. I'm sure that the electrics would indeed be superior to the GP40s out there now, but so are plain old MUs. The issue is if it would be worth the cost of an acquisition like that given the limited use and growth potential Shore Line East has historically experienced and looks like it will continue to experience.
Finally, if motivated and politically active, ConnDOT could indeed obtain FTA funding for electric motors, provided they could make the case to FTA that the expense if justified. Again, we bump into the hurdle of limited growth potential. After that's overcome, ConnDOT would have to be ready to fork over up to 50% of the cost in matching local share dollars. Now I ask you, which is easier to swallow, $2.5 million a piece as 50% of a $5 million electric, or a few hundred thousand for complete ownership of a rebuilt diesel? Which is a more winnable argument at The Capitol in Hartford? If it weren't for holding out (false?) hope that HARTFORD was to be the eventual hub of a statewide commuter rail system,, would the Legislature have even listened in 1990, when they agreed to fund the coach acquisition from Bombardier??....
"Cab signal and (on most cars) frequency differentials prevent MNRR New Haven Line equipment from running east of the Division Post at Fair Street"
Voltage differences, not frequency, which is the same at 60 Hz. CDOT’s catenary is at about 11kV while Amtrak’s is at 25kV. Not to mention the fact that the M2/4/6 MU cars cannot stop at low platforms, having doors for high platforms only. The voltage difference can be overcome by having automated variable-tap transformers like Amtrak’s equipment has. Indeed, it may be possible that the MUs have this capability already—after all, they do switch from DC third-rail to the AC catenary east of Mount Vernon. The signal systems and platforms would need to be upgraded, granted.
IIRC, voltages are 11,800 on MNRR and 25,000 on Amtrak. Both are 60 Hz, but the voltage changeover still plays havoc frequently with Amtrak motors, especially those HHP-8s. Amtrak used to pay a Mechanical Dept. person to stand-by with push rods to manually reset the taps on the HHPs the first several months they ran to Boston. Power surges or drops also can destroy the on-board diagnostics. This happened on my most recent trip back inn January 2003, when we lost over 90 minutes on a southbound train at New Haven before the deceased HHP had to be replaced by an unrebuilt AEM-7.
Re the MNRR MUs, I understand only the M-6s have taps that can automatically respond to the voltage differentials. Another factor in MU operation east of New Haven is MNRR's lack of ACSES cab signalling. This has been installed on all GP40s and ConnDOT cab control cars at Amtrak expense, but unless ConnDOT could commit a certain pool of MUs to SLE servce, neither party would be able to justify the cost of outfitting the entire New Haven Line roster with the ACSES cab signal system. Thats the main reason why you can and will see Shore Line equipment west of New Haven, but never MNRR equipment east of New Haven.
"Much the same line of reasoning, though varied and magnified, applies to MBTA Commuter Rail between Providence and Boston"
Since you bring them up, it has often been noted that the necessity of moving trainsets between different lines would not help the case of providing electric motors for the Attleborough Line.
You hit the nail right on the head regarding MBTA Commuter Rail operations, but that's one cause of which the effect is inability to jsutify the expense of electrifying Providence Line operations. It's not just equipment interchangeability but crews as well, to optimize the assets at hand. With the limited resources becoming available now, the possibility if even CONSIDERING electric local service is extremely remote. This is why Track 3 was not electrified within the Southwest Corridor portion of Boston. And like Shore Line East, Amtrak has certain things it has been after the MBTA to fund at its expense as chief landlord and user of the line. One proposal is to add a third track all the way from Readville to Canton Junction, but since Amtrak did not require it, they will not fund it and the MBTA cannot fund it now. It all comes back to the money.
Anyhow, it's late, I am tired and ready to call it a night. I hope I have responded to your inquiries satisfactorily, albeit not agreeably.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Perhaps it was deliberate. By the time the game ends, there's otherwise no direct service from Yankee Stadium to the CPW local stops. Why make all those people change at 125th?
I don't know what the usual practice is, if there even is a usual practice.
I propose that ALL trains skip the local stops in Manhattan, issue handcars for those along CPW and pump it up. Just kidding, bro ...
I don't understand the animosity towards Manhattan residents. We subsidize the rest of you with our full-price short trips. (Just thought I'd toss in a bit of real flamebait -- although I stand by it.)
That all said, back in the days of the AA train between 168 and Hudson Terminal, there was fairly DECENT local service on CPW. Ever since the AA train went away, it seems like everyone's gotten scrood. Perhaps THIS might be the direction to go in rather than making an already "Toonerville Trolley" make even MORE stops. Just a thought.
The 4 line baseball specials either went to Brooklyn Bridge, Bowling Green or all the way to Utica Ave.
Sorry, no B train extras, people at the IND platform were waiting for them, thinking one B train will show up.
The scheduled time for the non-stop express from Stamford, CT to Grand Central is also an hour.
Anyone care to share how long it takes them to get in to work, from Forest Hills?
Well, certainly one of the biggest, at least.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I defy anyone to cite an even bigger joke.
The CPW express has got to be the biggest joke in the system. How can you have service that runs non-stop for 66 blocks and only saves 3 minutes?!
Oh yeah how about skip stop service on the 1/9, saves almost no time at all.
Click here
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
Thier is a minor broha ha because the MTA is taking a few feat of property adjacent to the platforms by eminate domian in orfer to widen the platforms
As for the Ave H station house, the official reason for tearing it down is that it is wood and the MTA has a policy against renovating wooden fare control structures. the mta is in a rush to tear it down even though a replacement is not in the works for some time
Thier is a small group trying to get the station house land marked. Personally I used the station a few times and never noticed anything special
i have not used Ave J in over 10 years, what did they do at ave J.
From what I read, the MTA plans on painting the new structure at Ave H to look like wood planking
It is funny how no one cares about the station until something is under way to replace it. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, except for the station house looking like a cottage from the outside, I don't remember anything memorable about the station except for the tunnul under the tracks instread of a roadway.
I dated a girl junior year in HS(10+ years ago) who lived at AVE H. Used to use the station quite often back then. Concidering was arailfan back then also, I figured I notice something. One of the reasons I choose brooklyn tech over the private school my parents wanted to send me to was I got to ride the subway to school every day
For some reason I did not think the station house at the time was anything special. If anything it was run down and cruddy.
Don't confuse that with my current opinion that not only should the house be preserved but it should be renovated to enhance it's apeal.
Actually, it was built as a real estate office, and later became a railroad station.
i was jusr saying at the time when I used the station fairly often I never thousgh twice that about the station house being all that special. Many years aof neglect may have have been part of the reason.
On the other hand I don't see why the mta is in such a rush to take it down and spend a ton a money on a new building.
Though I've heard this denied, I suspect at least part of the reason is that they will be making substantial modification to the platforms and the entrances and exits. If they have to preserve the building more or less intact it may make it more difficult to work around, both during the construction phase and in locating new facilities.
I think that, and not the bogus fire hazard thing, may be foremost of their minds.
The NYCT's contention that the station house IS bogus, ever try to exit quickly the narrow staircases at Cortelyou and Beverly road stations?
Some extra difficulty is well worth the cost. Demolishing the stationhouse would result in the loss of a historical structure, just for the sake of some convenience during the construction. Hardly a bargain.
Well said!!
It's a hundred years old
It's unique in the system
It's a real piece of architecture, not a modern recreation
It's the last surviving example of a BRT surface station
Probably the only surviving station house that was built as a non-railroad structure
It predates its community
It predates the Redbirds
And the Arnines
And the BMT Standards
And the Lo-Vs
And even most of the Hi-Vs
(All of which are now cherished in the TA museum)
It is an example of a disappeared style of cottage architecture
It is a landmark in the most significant generic sense of the words
Once it's gone, that's it, Bro' you ain't never gettin' it back
And as an example of the BRT, don't forget the plaque sitting outside Newkirk Ave station. Although the plaque is marred by a**holes with spray cans and markers, it still stands proud of the beginnings of the modern day era of the BRT.
Thanks, but the Avenue H stationhouse doesn't move anyway. At least, not yet. :(
the preservationist have a strong argument. Lets a suitable resolution to this matter comes forth
A possible solution would to turn the current cottage into a retail establishment that supports transit riders such as a coffee house preserving the building while allowing the MTA to meet it's "safety goals" of not using wood fare control structures
Now you just killed off the sole purpose of what it is meant for, private developer gets a hand on it, private developer does not like it, private delevloper RAZES it.
An agreement could be made under which the developer would have to preserve the structure.
I am picturing a coffee bar similar to freind that could renovate the inside of the stucture to include the fireplace(working or not) and other original details. The structure was originaly a store of some kind
Move the fare control out of the cottage, and both sides are happy.
The cottage remains and gets renovated by the concession, the MTA complies with it's fire code for fare controls.
A HEET or turnstyle could lead into the concession but it would not be the primary entrance to the station.
i am just looking to point out some middle ground.
www.forgotten-ny.com
And this site for the modern one, which is David Greenberger's.
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i22000/img_22170.jpg
Well whoever's photo the old one is, it was enough to convince me a few months ago when we first had this discussion that Avenue H was worth saving.
Speaking of The Third Rail, here's a little story about Avenue H for those of you that still aren't convinced that it would be a gre4at loss to have this little station torn down.
A grave mistake as I said before if they rip the heart of the Brighton Line, because that's what NYCT will do.
Ok voiceBUTNOreason, your a fellow Brighton line rider and I am disappointed and surprised that you would make a statement. Yes the house needs work, especially the inside but the stationhouose is another unique sight of our Brighton line and has stood there for nearly 100 years and saying that NOTHING is memorable, think about it.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't think so. In those days, there was no appreciation for historical architecture like today. I know the building was a real estate office for the area, but the BRT could have evicted the real estate office and built a modern concrete fare control building. It's nice that they left the building standing all these years. Unfortunately the building is in jeoopady and the clock is ticking. Hopefully the building can be landmarked and be saved. If the T.A. can restore old subway stations and mix the old with the new, they can restore that wooden building and make it pass any fire codes.
Bill "Newkirk"
If there wasn't appreciation for historic structures, we would be applauding the decision to remove the station house, not disagreeing with it.
If not, the moterman must have just blessed the cab and got pissed off because you were catching him in the act. ;-D
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
BUT
Try to remember that employees are only doing what they were told to do.
-Mark
And even though the rules for taking photos on the New York Subway are posted on this web site (FAQs), and it has been suggested on Sub Talk that you should carry a copy of them when taking photos just in case you run into an over enthusiastic employee, you didn't have a copy of the rules, and therefore believed everything the tower guy said.
Tom
It is more than a guideline. It is the controlling law. Of course, if you are going to show it to someone who is saying photography is illegal, you should be polite, stating this is your understanding of the current law, and ask if there has been a recent change, and if so where has the change been published? Show that you are trying to follow the law as you understand it, rather than being a wise ass. The person is more likely to back down if he does not think you are attacking his personal authority.
Tom
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Unless you're in a restricted area (motorman's cab, yard, or other places passangers aren't allowed to access) you CAN PHOTOGRAPH WHATEVER YOU WANT! If you want to stand on a platform and photograph passing trains, NO ONE can stop you, even if they have a badge.
Now I carry the text of 21 NYCRR 1050 and don't bother anymore. And I made the trips to NYC Transit and MTA HQ.
--Mark
How are they communists? Do they advocate that we abandon our capitalist economic system in favor of one based on the theories of Karl Marx?
#3 West End Jeff
It is? Please cite a reference.
--Mark
Next time pull a Thurston and POST A STATION OF MEET along with the time of day.
Things that make ye' go HMMMMMM
R
LOWER EAST SIDE [yes, the "EAST" was spelled out]
2 AV
via 6 AV LCL
Of course, this begs the question: Why not just use the V readings? As long as the train is doing the entire V route (and only the V route), it might as well carry V signs.
That, in turn, begs the question of which is less confusing to the riding public... (1) an R train that runs during its normal hours, but not on its normal route, or (2) a V train that runs its normal route, but not during its normal hours?
Any thoughts?
Certainly the latter. The train you saw was no more an R than it was a 5.
Mark
It was a 5 train more than an R train. It was basically signed as an R even though it ran on the Roman-numeral 5 route.
:-D Andrew
avid
Perhaps it should be signed as an R in Queens SB and as a V in Manhattan. (Queens NB doesn't matter.) That's easy enough to do with the R-46's -- leave the bulkhead signs at V or blank them out.
I wonder if extending the R (via V) to Church was considered. That way, through R passengers could transfer directly in Brooklyn rather than having to transfer twice.
BTW, in case anyone is wondering, all BMT service is local in Manhattan today, and the Q is terminating on the NB express track at 57th.
:-) Andrew
As for the public, if a V runs one weekend, they will then expect it to run every weekend and complain about the service cut when it doesn't; if the R runs somewhere other than its normal place, they just chalk it up to general Transit incompetence.
Umm...
Aren't the letters and numbers there so that people who know where the trains go can identify them?
For everyone else it's a major hassle.
For everyone else, it doesn't matter what the train is called.
Mark
Yes, but sadly most people wouldn't know what train to take to get to the Upper West side unless they were staring at a subway map. So saying "this train will be running along the 2 line" or "this train will be running as a V train" wouldn't be as helpful as just telling them where exactly it's going.
That begs another question: For whose benefit does the subway system exist - the crew office or the riding public?
(Depending on the answer to this question, my earlier question can be either answered or ignored.)
There is no doubt in my mind that the Crew Office and the bulk of the rest of the "innards" of NYCTA should see these trains as R. That doesn't mean that the trains need to be signed as such.
Mark
That reminds me of a combined R/E (Jamaica Center to 95th Street) a while back. A conductor on the F announced "If you're going to Jamaica Center, transfer here for an E train with R signs"! That totally confused everybody.
I agree with you but it looks like they want to keep the practice of keeping the letter V reserved for weekday service only. Yes when folks see a R on 6 Av they're like what the hell is this but remember there is no service to the 60 St tube this weekend.
That's IT?! Why didn't they just send the (R) through the 63 St tube? If the (Q) came into 57 just after the (R), it would get enough time to empty and relay before the next (R) comes in behind it.
Better still, run the Q via 63rd then on the R in Queens and terminate the R at Whitehall.
Obviously, there was more going on here -- like work at 57th SB.
In that case, the posted notices were wrong. If they can't even get the route straight, why worry about the letters? Just call it "some train," and be glad that it runs at all.
Mark
:-) Andrew
Isn't the difference that an E train to Whitehall St would be Express in Queens whereas an R train to Jamaica Center would be Local?
:-) Andrew
Ouch. I have a sudden urge to ride the J train.
The nighttime variant is still in use when 53rd has to be closed, but the daytime variant is different: the E runs, but it runs via 63rd and 6th and usually terminates at 2nd. I think that's extremely confusing -- especially those weekends that the SB F runs via Cranberry. The old variant should return, even though passengers from the Jamaica Center branch will have to either transfer or stay on the local.
I took and E to West 4th and then waited for an F. A bunch of people got on the next E heading to 2nd Avenue. The train and platform announcements were made when the train arrived, before the passengers came down the stairs. Then, another bunch came from the uptown plaform, having made the same mistake earlier. Later, there were passenger who got on the F, thinking the only way to 2nd Avenue was to go to Jay Street and come back to Manhattan. The GOs were just not well run.
When I left, there were R-32 trains on all three in-service tracks. Don't see that very often these days.
According to the SDEIS, the SAS will greatly relieve the 6 -- locals would only be half full in Manhattan (!!!). But the 4/5 would continue to be near 100% full from 125th to Union Sq.
If the SAS went north and captured the Pelham line, there would be no massive transfer from local to express at 125th, and the 4/5 would also have major relief.
Why isn't this proposed? Same amount of tunneling either way -- about 1/2 mile.
As long as two routes will probably use the upper portion of 2nd Avenue, there might as well be TWO northern branches. I'd like to see the following:
Branch 1: A new line continuing up Webster or Third Avenue, east under Fordham Road and Pelham Parkway, and then taking over the Dyre Line. That would let all #5 service operate on White Plains Road (weekdays) or not at all (weekends).
Branch 2: West on 125th Street at least to St. Nicholas Avenue (transfer to 8th Avenue Line); from there, either curve up St. Nicholas into the 8th Avenue Line, or continue to Broadway (and maybe across the Hudson?!).
There is where I come from ;-)
Also, turning westward would ease transfers to Metro-North and would permit a future extension across 125th Street.
Errmmmm... IINM they have to go to Times Sq anyway to get onto the West Side IRT - well unless you like lots of transfers (6 to 51/Lex, E to 53/7, B/D to 59/8, 1 to whereever) or going back to the Bronx (6 to 125/Lex, 4/5 to 149, 2 to whereever) or down to 14th or Fulton.
Better than the westside, where there's nothing between 59th and 168th.
The 6 could terminate at 138th. A cross-platform transfer could move people between SAS and the Lex (though the local).
That's hardly a way to attract riders from other lines. It's also hardly a way to attract support from the rest of the city.
I don't live near 2nd Avenue, but I'd like to be able to use the SAS on occasion. With your proposal, I'd have to either go down to Times Square and back up or make four transfers (no exaggeration: 1/9 to 2 to 4/5 to 6 to SAS). No thanks. While three transfers isn't much of an improvement, a westward pointing line at least has the chance of eventually making it to Broadway or at least Lenox.
In any event, capturing the Pelham is the implicit deal in the SDEIS anyway. The provision to do this is in the plan.
Since the SAS goes somewhere very different from the Lex express, I imagine that many will transfer.
And so will WPR and Jerome riders, if they're given the option. You're not giving them the option. They'll all stay on the 4/5 where they are already, even if they're going to 2nd Avenue, since they're cut off from the SAS.
As for crowding, no big deal for them. They have a seat (at least in mornings). But it IS a big deal for people trying to get on at 86th, 59th and particularly 42nd. Lex crowding is always used as the first argument for the SAS. To say a "crowded option" is not a problem creates the opportunity for many to say: then lets save all that money and build no SAS at all.
And by adding stops at the Lenox, St Nich and Broadway (in addition to Lex) you give many riders coming from the Bronx and Washington Heights) the chance to use SAS.
As I recall, the orignal MTA plan had the SAS using unused space on the Amtrak ROW to E180th, in part following the original NYW&B route. It would have recaptured only the portion of the Pelham line east of Whitlock. It also would have recaptured the Dyre. The IRT Pelham Line would have started from Whitlock, or perhaps from E180th via a shared track connection.
Recall that at the time, the "South Bronx" ended at East Tremont Avenue and the Bronx River, and the East Bronx was still primarily white and working to middle class. Crime was high. My guess is there was an attempt to allow East Bronx riders to bypass the area south of E. 180th Street and Whitlock on the IRT.
All this is less of an issue, now that Mitchell-Lama Land south of the Pelham is primarily Latino and the crime rate is down.
Back to your plan, it makes sense but then you would have to curve the SAS onto St Nicholas Av then build the station to provide a transfer then what would you do from there? Or do you have something different in this case.
WHY? Lots of people are advocating it because it could be done, but what benefit would it have? Does the Concourse line really need the maximum capacity in the rush hour?
Although that's besides the point, because it's not like the southern portion will ever be completed, and with only the north done, the (Q) alone will do fine with Stillwell/CI and 125. But hypothetically if the southern half ever got built, it would need more direct yard access.
I'm not a big fan of how the northern terminal will be configured, as it negates any worthwhile extension into the Bronx.
It appears that the design allows either alternative. The SDEIS shows tracks pointing northward for train storage, and also a curve west for the terminus at 125th St with tail tracks extending beyond the station. Hence, either alternative—northward to the Bronx or westward along 125th St—would be possible.
The advantage of the current proposal at 125th is that the transfer from either MNRR or 4/5/6 will be extremely short, making it a more attractive commuting alternative than if the SAS station at 125th had been pointed straight north.
When the Pelham capture goes into operation, few riders will want the last station on the western branch. Most will want the 18 stations of the Pelham line, and have to pile out at 116th and wait for a Pelham train. If the long-term plan is to capture the Pelham, might as well do it now and save $1 billion for the curve over to 125th.
Perhaps if the Second Avenue were built, providing easy access to East Side hospitals from MetroNorth, the health care industry would evaluate its costs based on the cost of housing in Westchester and Putnam, rather than assuming that their entire staffs have to live in the most costly neighborhoods in the United States.
Perhaps if the SAS is eventually connected to the Concourse line, the doctors will once again live in apartment buildings on the Concourse, as in the 1930s and 40s, instead of insisting on charging enough to outbid CEOs and Wall Street sharks for apartments on the UES.
That's just the problem. According to the SDEIS, the current SAS does NOT eliminate crowding on the Lex expresses. More have to be peeled off, and the Pelham capture is the only way I see of doing it.
Well I don't think that is a bad idea, it would help make travel across 125 St better and people won't have to ride the crosstown buses which takes time due to traffic. This would be done so that a westward extension would be easier and would probably have less costs in terms of construction.
If the line were to go further north, it might as well run to the Bronx via Webster or Third Av to wherever the northern terminal could be i.e. Gun Hill Road.
Well I don't think that is a bad idea, it would help make travel across 125 St better and people won't have to ride the crosstown buses which takes time due to traffic. This would be done so that a westward extension would be easier and would probably have less costs in terms of construction.
If the line were to go further north, it might as well run to the Bronx via Webster or Third Av to wherever the northern terminal could be i.e. Gun Hill Road.
It's an all or nothing proposition. The Pelham line will not be able to go to both the Lex and the SAS due to tunnel clearances. If its connection to the Lex is severed, then Pelham riders will have their access to East Side midtown destinations severely compromised.
The basic problem is that 2nd Ave is not particularly centrally located on the East Side. A 3rd Ave subway would have made much more sense. However, 2nd Ave was offered as a location while the 3rd Ave El still existed to facilitate construction. The 3rd Ave El hasn't existed for nearly 50 years but the planners have not realized this.
It would appear that the planners will repeat the same mistake made on the Upper West Side. They built a new subway on the periphery - CPW - not the core. Consequently, the CPW stations draw far fewer patrons than the old IRT line. Lexington Ave is centrally located between 1st and 5th Aves; 2nd Ave isn't.
Will UES residents go out of their way to ride the SAS to midtown locations that are also out of their way, compared to the Lex. If they behave like their fellow residents on the west side of Central Park, then the SAS will run nearly empty while the Lex will remain packed. Are the upper east siders willing to take a few extra steps on both ends of their trip? Those at 86th are not even willing to spend a few extra minutes in a comparitively empty local but jam into the express instead.
In the alternative, it makes more sense to connect to the Concourse Line, so that Concourse pax have an east/west option. The Pelham Line already goes to the east side, and another east side option for those pax is less valuable. Also, as Stephen Bauman noted, I don't think it would be operationally possible for Pelham trains to split between Lex and 2nd.
The basic problem is that 2nd Ave is not particularly centrally located on the East Side. A 3rd Ave subway would have made much more sense. However, 2nd Ave was offered as a location while the 3rd Ave El still existed to facilitate construction. The 3rd Ave El hasn't existed for nearly 50 years but the planners have not realized this.
You could argue the merits of 2nd vs. 3rd, but the question hasn't been ignored. The MESA study considered 3rd Avenue (not in depth, but it was looked at). The conclusion was that 3rd is just too close to Lex. No two existing north-south lines are as close to each other as 3rd & Lex lines would be. Also, I think that Stephen ignores many residential and work destinations on the far east side (e.g., the hospitals) that would benefit from the SAS.
We should also not forget that the existence of a subway line changes commuting patterns. The far east side will become more attractive once it is closer to mass transit.
I seem to remember that the Lex and the 3rd Ave El were as close. Indeed, when the Lex, 3rd and 2nd Ave Els were all operating, it was the 2nd Ave El that was the poor cousin.
I seem to remember that the Lex and the 3rd Ave El were as close.
Yes, it's certainly true that the Lex subway and 3rd Avenue El were very close together, but the 3rd El has been gone for five decades. The fact that it was once there doesn't mean that building its functional replacement is a good investment.
Indeed, when the Lex, 3rd and 2nd Ave Els were all operating, it was the 2nd Ave El that was the poor cousin.
But the 2nd Avenue El has been gone for over six decades. Demographics along 3rd, 2nd, 1st and York Aves have changed just a wee bit since then.
The analogy Stephen made between the 2nd Ave line and the CPW line isn't fair. While not centrally located, 2nd Ave has a lot of population density on BOTH sides, east and west. Many people living on York and First Ave will opt for the closer, newer and less crowded SAS, especially if it has the dual option of accessing the East side and West side of midtown (using the Broadway connection at 63rd St).
Whatever the reason, the result was that CPW can get customer from only one direction. Residents who are more than 1 avenue block from CPW are closer to the IRT.
This sounds like a valid argument, but the situation with SAS is different, because it can pull riders from both east and west.
The underlying principle is proximity to a stations from one's residence not the number of directions.
Consider the East Side and assume equal density between 5th Ave and the East River.
All residents west of Lex (3.5th Ave) are closer to the Lex, with some adjustment needing to be made the difference between 72nd and 68th Streets. All the residents between Lex and 1/3 of the way between 3rd and 2nd are also closer to the Lex. Only residents east of 2/3 the distance between 2nd and 3rd would be closer to an SAS station, with some adjustment to be made for 77th St which as no SAS counterpart.
Above 59th, my guess is that subway ridership is concentrated east of Park, at least below 96th Street. Densities are higher -- more singles sharing high rise apartments as opposed to really rich people in large apartments, as on Park and 5th. Not sure about Madison. Moreover, employment is concentrated to the east.
In Midtown, obviously the Lex has the better spot. It will continue to outdraw the SAS for that reason.
South of Midtown, it's probably even. You have another hospitals complex south of 34th Street and east of 3rd. You have a concentration of business activity in the Flatiron district, but the Lex isn't the only East Side subway there, as the BMT Broadway line moves on over.
Arti
I've taken the trouble to look at the census tract data. First, the census tracts cover two avenue blocks. Between 59th and 132nd Streets: 52,434 people live between Park and Fifth Aves; 65,563 people live between Third and Park Aves, 119,577 live between First and Third Aves and 79,703 live east of First Ave. I'm assuming that the census tract boundaries are in the middle of the street.
The biggest mistake of the CPW IND line was not necessarily it's location, but it's lack of express stops between 59th and 125th. An express stop at 96th St or 86th St would draw more passangers than the current local stops.
I doubt it. If you board a B or C local at 86th or 96th, it takes only 2 or 3 minutes longer to reach 59th than an A or D express that goes by at the same time. Between 96th and 59th is just 3 stops (86th, 81st, 72nd). Anyone who has the option to choose between the CPW and Broadway lines will quickly figure that out: it doesn't make that much of a difference.
Arti
If there were an express stop on CPW, the time savings would be in the wait, not in the ride. If you're ever waited at a CPW local station, you know how depressing it can be -- those stations are hardly cheery, and local service is fairly infrequent. That gives a slight push towards Broadway even to those who live closer to CPW.
I couldn't have said it better myself. I have rarely had a pleasant experience on the CPW line. The stations seem even more depressing and cavern-like when you have to wait for what seems like an eternity for a local train. Because I try to avoid it, I have to admit that I don't use it often, and most of the time when I do it is Saturday or Sunday, but it seems to never exceed the expectations I have come to expect. I would much rather walk to the Broadway-7th line if possible, as the experience usually seems to be much better.
Compared to the parallel IND express, not on weekends. IME, C's are less crowded than A's but more crowded than D's.
The IRT has the advantage of being first on both counts. On the other hand, I would argue that Second is central enough to the Upper East Side, which stretches past First to York, and for several blocks, East End. People coming from or going to points west of Lexington would tend to prefer Lexington anyway. The SDEIS Second Avenue plan does more to make the system accessible to additional locations than it does to relieve the Lexington line of its crowds.
Even a Third Avenue routing could share this problem, especially if the routes and stations proposed in the SDEIS are simply shifted one block west. The drawback is that the line would be out of the reach of people east of First.
On the Lower East Side, where Manhattan extends even further east, you could argue that what's needed is a First Avenue subway, not a Second or Third one. The Second Avenue el ran on First south of 23rd.
Will UES residents go out of their way to ride the SAS to midtown locations that are also out of their way, compared to the Lex. If they behave like their fellow residents on the west side of Central Park, then the SAS will run nearly empty while the Lex will remain packed. Are the upper east siders willing to take a few extra steps on both ends of their trip?
I agree, I don't think current riders will flock to the new line at all. I think that the SDEIS ridership forecasts are overly optimistic, and even they indicate little or no change on the Lexington express. But I think that this has little to do with the question of Second or Third, and a lot to do with settling for a kinda-local-kinda-express dirt trail instead of a proper trunk with adequate transfers and connections.
Mark
On LES the Lex is virtually on 33rd Ave.
Arti
They're more than overly optimistic; they're totally fabricated.
Consider Tables 5B-16 and 5B-19 in the SDEIS. They purport to compare the build/no build options in 2020 for Entry volumes at each of the Lex and SAS stations during the peak AM hour. One should expect that the total number of persons entering both the Lex and the SAS assuming the build option SHOULD equal the number of people entering the Lex assuming the no build option.
Here's the data for the Build option on the Lex: 1,350 (125th St); 1120 (116th St); 430 (110th St); 770 (103rd St); 1850 (96th St); 3780 (86th St); 3280 (77th St); 820 (68th) for a total of 13,400. The same data for the SAS are: 1680 (125th St); 2120 (116th St); 1580 (106th St); 7900 (96th St); 7090 (86th St); 4590 (72nd St) for a total of 24,960. This results in a total of 38,360 for the build option.
Here's the data for the no build option on the Lex: 2450 (125th St); 2250 (116th St); 820 (110th St); 1620 (103rd St); 7980 (96th St); 7140 (86th St); 6880 (77th St); 2460 (68th St) for a total of: 31,600.
That's an additional 6760 people using rail transit, assuming the build option from the same population. That translates to over 100 bus loads, so this discrepency cannot be explained by a modal shift.
The 6,760 sounds reasonable to me. Remember, this is for the peak hour. It represents everyone driven out of peak hour subway ridership by crush loading:
a) modal shift from buses.
b) modal shift from taxis.
c) modal shift from auto. This includes not only the small but rising number of rich people who live on the east side and drive, but also merely affluent people who drive to far east side destinations from elsewhere (ie. the hospitals, Rockefeller University, the U.N.).
d) modal shift from walking long distances, because one cannot stand having other people rubbing up agains oneself.
e) and, bet you didn't think of this, time shift to less convenient travel times, to avoid the worst of the loading. How many people are due at work at 9:00 a.m. to take the train early just to avoid the crush?
How many more people would be riding the Lex at peak hour right now, if it was closer to where they lived and less crowded?
Fewer than there used to be because the Upper East Side (5th Ave to the East River and north of 59th St) has lost population over the past 30 years. That's one of the reasons that Lex peak volumes have also declined over the same period.
Don't be fooled. While working on the census, we found that an increasing share of apartments on the Upper East Side are "corporate apartments" for those on assignment to New York. Thus, they aren't counted as housing units and their residents are recorded elsewhere, one reason Manhattan's population didn't go up strongly in the 1990s. My guess is some of these people just "live elsewhere" for tax purposes, perhaps one reason why Bloomberg was so crazed about the commuter tax.
But people are in those units, all right. The number of units keeps going up, and they are NOT vacant. And whereas before college graduates were sharing apartments on the UES, now they are sharing rooms.
Reasonable????
There are 50 local and limited buses currently operating on 2nd Ave during the peak hour. An average of 70 people per bus translates to 3500 people, leaving 3,260 people switching from taxis. That number of taxis would would mean that close to 10% of the operating fleet for the entire city would be operating on 2nd Ave!!! Not only is that implication not reasonable it's incredulous. :-)
I think the opportunities for increased housing development are rather limited.
In effect, rent regulations limit the ability to tear down old tenements and replace them with towers. You have to buy up buildings, and hold apartments vacant until they empty. This process takes years, often decades. As a result, zoning capacity, which is plentiful on many sites, is actualized very slowly. It is actualized quickly enough, however, for the UES to lead the city in new, unsubsidized housing units decade after decade.
If rent control ever gets abolished, I suppose there'd be a huge surge in construction. Not that it'll ever get abolished, of course.
That will chase the long-term renters away. Some will move to co-ops and condos, and there will be more room for short-term renters, but will the short-term renters outnumer the long-term renters? Perhaps, perhaps not. If not (and the developers make the correct prediction), then why would there be a huge surge in construction?
Abolishing rent control would have some interesting effects on the city. The loss of long-term renters would lead to a shift in civic participation. None of them would support the SAS, since, even if everything runs on schedule, they wouldn't see anything except the construction. If you thought NYC was short-sighted now, imagine what it would be like if it lost many of its voters who actually care about the future of the city.
There would also be major demographic shifts. In particular, neighborhoods would become demographically homogeneous. This may sound strange to someone who lives in a suburb, but many New Yorkers like their demographically heterogeneous neighborhoods.
Does rent control have to remain exactly as it is today? No, of course not. Does the city's health depend on the existence some form of rent control? Absolutely.
On the other hand, if many of these long-term renters decide to buy co-ops or condominiums, public support for the SAS and other transit/infrastructure improvements should increase. Owners have much more of a stake in an area's continued vitality than do even the longest-term of renters. And it shoud go without saying that the vitality of most NYC neighborhoods depends on quality transit.
Care to back that up? Because I don't believe it.
It should be extremely obvious. If you're renting, and the neighborhood (or city) starts to deteriorate, with the quality of life getting intolerable, you can get out pretty quickly and move elsewhere. If you're a homeowner (which in the NYC context may mean a condo or co-op) in the same situation, the area's deterioration probably means that the value of your property is going down too - in some cases, to the point that you owe more on the mortgage than the place is worth. You can be sure that homeowners will do anything to prevent that from happening. So yes, they have a far greater stake than renter.
Rent regulations have also inhibited construction. First, you can't evict to removed buildings and tear them down.
Second, while new buildings are exempt from rent regulation, potential investors know this could change at any time. Rent control had virtually no effect on new construction, because people believed that new buildings would be exempt. Then, in the early 1970s, rent stabilization was retroactively imposed on the newer buildings. Unsubusidized contruction of rental construction virtually stopped for two decades, before reviving in the past five years. But I wouldn't invest in it.
Only to someone who doesn't understand what it means to be a permanent resident in a rental.
If you're renting, and the neighborhood (or city) starts to deteriorate, with the quality of life getting intolerable, you can get out pretty quickly and move elsewhere.
Yes, and abandon the new kitchen I installed last year, and the bookshelves I installed the year before, and the new floor I installed the year before. (And, with rent control, revert to market rents in a new apartment.)
That's a costly move.
If it weren't for rent control, people wouldn't be making expensive renovations to their apartments, but instead would be more likely to buy. That's good for stability and civic-mindedness.
Try again.
There would also be major demographic shifts. In particular, neighborhoods would become demographically homogeneous. This may sound strange to someone who lives in a suburb, but many New Yorkers like their demographically heterogeneous neighborhoods.
I'm not doubting this assumption, but how would the loss of rent control make this happen?
Just a sidenote, suburbs are not all that "homogeneous" either, especially on Long Island, I guess depending on which neighborhood one is in. I probably live in one of the most heterogeneous neighborhoods in Suffolk county, both racially and economically. Also, in the school district in my area, there is probably the richest of the rich, going to school with the poorest of the poor, and there are few problems considering that fact (mandatory transit: the LIRR tracks kind of divide the poorer area from the non-poor area in a classic "right and wrong" side of the tracks scenario). This diversity is actually true for many areas of Long Island. Unless someone lives in Upper Brookville or some area like that, all suburbanites don't really live in a bubble anymore.
Some would argue that they don't!
There must be long-term tenants in other cities also.
They're a rarity outside NYC.
I think that one of the reasons many of the neighborhoods in New York look the way they do look and have abandoned buildings, is because of the surpressed rent market. The very people that it is supposed to help, are the people it hurts. When the rents are left artificially low, landlords have no incentive to maintain buildings, and builders have no incentive to add new buildings to the housing stock. This in turn leads to the housing shortage and also leads existing housing in older neighborhoods to fall apart and few new units to be built, and many people living in squalor in old run down buildings.
So they say, but I don't find the argument convincing.
Look around the city. Where do you find abandoned buildings, in neighborhoods where market rents have gone down or gone up? Where they've gone down, of course. But if market rents have gone down, then rent control doesn't have any effect -- although the landlords could legally raise their rents, they wouldn't find tenants if they did. So how is rent control to blame?
Rent control is a convenient scapegoat. It's easier to blame rent control than to blame insufficient school funding, or insufficient policing, or the dual effects of publicly funded urban highways (which make the neighborhoods they pass through less attractive at the same time as they make suburbs more attractive), or any of the countless other real causes for the decline of many of the city's neighborhoods.
It's supply and demand, if there are many rentals to choose from, people would have a choice, and landlords could not ask ridiculous rents, because the tenant would just choose a different apartment.
That's fine for short-term renters and for people searching for apartments, but a long-term renter who makes modifications to his apartment is in a vulnerable position: if the landlord raises the rent, the tenant can't simply leave without abandoning an expensive investment. Rent control protects the long-term renter from this risk.
It's when there is a shortage of rentals that rents become insane, which is exactly the problem New York has.
I agree that this is a problem, and that perhaps some modifications to rent control are in order, but rent control must remain in some form.
In many of the run down neighborhoods there has been much new construction, but look of what much of it has been: One and two family homes. That's great because it encourages home ownership, but it also lowers neighborhood density as these homes are replacing multi-family dwellings.
Why is home ownership great? In another branch of this thread I've been treated to a circular argument.
It's great that these neighborhoods are being revamped, but at the same time with lower density, available rental units also decrease (not that it really effects the recent past of some of these neighborhoods as these homes are really replacing burn-outs), but in general the denisty is lower than when these burn-outs were in use.
In those neighborhoods, yes, but the city's overall density is at its highest point in a century. (Much of that, of course, is due to low-density expansion into previously undeveloped sections of Staten Island, Brooklyn, and Queens.)
I'm not doubting this assumption, but how would the loss of rent control make this happen?
If rents in my neighborhood are on the rise, and my neighbor can't afford the new rents, my neighbor is forced to move elsewhere, and my neighborhood is left only with people who can afford the new market rents.
Just a sidenote, suburbs are not all that "homogeneous" either, especially on Long Island, I guess depending on which neighborhood one is in. I probably live in one of the most heterogeneous neighborhoods in Suffolk county, both racially and economically. Also, in the school district in my area, there is probably the richest of the rich, going to school with the poorest of the poor, and there are few problems considering that fact (mandatory transit: the LIRR tracks kind of divide the poorer area from the non-poor area in a classic "right and wrong" side of the tracks scenario). This diversity is actually true for many areas of Long Island. Unless someone lives in Upper Brookville or some area like that, all suburbanites don't really live in a bubble anymore.
You've made my point exactly. If the poor live on one side of the tracks and the rich live on the other, then they don't share a neighborhood. When I speak of heterogeneous neighborhoods, I mean that I live next door to or down the block from someone of a different demographic, not a few miles away.
I agree that this is a problem, and that perhaps some modifications to rent control are in order, but rent control must remain in some form.
I agree that they can't stop it cold turkey, the last time they did that they felt the need to start the Rent Stabilization program right after they got rid of the rent control through vacancy decontrol. Rent Stabilization has been modified over the years a bit, and more is necessary. It's a sticky situation as the system needs to be fair to both owners and tenants, owners groups try to the extreme to push it one way, just like the tenant groups try to push it the other.
Why is home ownership great? In another branch of this thread I've been treated to a circular argument.
I have not read the "branch" thread and don't have the time now, but home ownership is good because it does give people more of a stake in a neighborhood. While I completely understand your point about tenants making improvements to an apartment, it is still easier to walk away from the cost of improvements (no matter how that may hurt) than the remainder of a mortgage.
You've made my point exactly. If the poor live on one side of the tracks and the rich live on the other, then they don't share a neighborhood. When I speak of heterogeneous neighborhoods, I mean that I live next door to or down the block from someone of a different demographic, not a few miles away.
While the "cross the tracks" scenario may be true for the extreme poverty that is north of the tracks, it certainly is not a cut and dry slice. Near the water is of course an affluent area (as in most places), but even though my street is south of the tracks, it is surely north of the "great" neighborhood; it is hardly an affluent homogeneous area. In fact my street is probably more diverse both racially and economically than many Queens neighborhoods. I guess it's probably the transition area between the two neighborhoods.
This is a remarkable proposition, and surely wrong. A small minority of cities and towns in America have rent control. Is their health impaired as a result? I seriously doubt it.
What causes people to care about the city is that, for one reason or another, they expect to be sticking around. People have many motivations for doing so, not just that they're locked into a rent controlled apartment.
I can cite myself as an example. I am staying in New York because: (1) I like it here; and, (2) My career requires it. I am a renter, but I do not live in a rent controlled apartment. I believe there are many others like me.
Do they have large quantities of long-term renters? I seriously doubt it. The issue is simply not relevant if all the long-term residents own their homes.
I can cite myself as an example. I am staying in New York because: (1) I like it here; and, (2) My career requires it. I am a renter, but I do not live in a rent controlled apartment. I believe there are many others like me.
And would you continue to stick around if, each time you made expensive modifications to an apartment to make it more suitable for you, your landlord jacked up the rent?
No one would make such modifications. Instead, they would demand that landlords make them, or threaten to move to get a better apartment elsewhere. Under rent regulations, the rents are lower, but the landlord has no incentive to do more than the minimum legally required. You are stuck with each other.
(Do they have large quantities of long-term renters? I seriously doubt it. The issue is simply not relevant if all the long-term residents own their homes.)
One of the arguments for rent regulation is that the building owners own all the buildings, so opportunties for homeownership are diminished, and without the possibility of stability there is less neighborhood life. People want to lock being part of a community.
The fact that the market is not providing that opportunity is evidenced by the fact that there is a strong cost premium for ownership housing vs. market rate rents. Not so in most of the country -- owning is cheaper.
Back on topic -- how would ending rent regulation affect the subway? My guess is long time middle class residents in Manhattan and a (very) few outer borough neighborhoods would be forced to move. Given the mentality of such people, my guess is that many would leave the city rather than take a step down and live in (say) my neighborhood.
In general, such people will not be replaced by those more affluent than themselves, not in this economy. They will be replaced by those willing to live with less space in order to afford a higher rent.
Thus, more young people and more subway riders in Manhattan, Brooklyn Heights, Forest Hills, and a few other nabes. Just my guess.
Really? You find me a landlord who will replace the kitchen sink with the one I want, or will install permanent bookshelves on the living room walls because I have a lot of books, or will split a large bedroom into two smaller ones because I have kids, or will combine two small bedrooms into one larger one because I don't.
I see these tenant-initiated modifications being done all the time in my building.
Under rent regulations, the rents are lower, but the landlord has no incentive to do more than the minimum legally required. You are stuck with each other.
That's fine. A long-term resident doesn't want the landlord to make extensive modifications to the apartment. Just make sure the common facilities are in working order and leave the apartment to the tenant.
Back on topic -- how would ending rent regulation affect the subway? My guess is long time middle class residents in Manhattan and a (very) few outer borough neighborhoods would be forced to move. Given the mentality of such people, my guess is that many would leave the city rather than take a step down and live in (say) my neighborhood.
In general, such people will not be replaced by those more affluent than themselves, not in this economy. They will be replaced by those willing to live with less space in order to afford a higher rent.
Thus, more young people and more subway riders in Manhattan, Brooklyn Heights, Forest Hills, and a few other nabes. Just my guess.
Yes, with one caveat: these young people living in small spaces are not staying here permanently -- they're living here for a few years before starting familities and moving to the suburbs. The long-term health of the city is of no concern to them. They're more worried about the temporary inconveniences of SAS construction than they are about the permanent inconveniences if it's never constructed.
Is that who we want to be dominating the city's voting booths?
Such people are cash cows. Aside from Central Park and similar recreational facilities, about the only public service they use is the subway. Think about it. Aren't you one of them (or won't you be once gainfully employed)?
The city needs to be a city of young childless people, empty nesters, and commuters, so it can collect taxes without having to provide any services. All the money is needed for debt and the pensions of former public employees who have cashed in and moved away, leaving an underfunded pension plan.
At this point, this unfortunately isn't about what I want. You'd find that what I'd want is very different from top to bottom.
The question of who is more likely to support policies that impose sacrifices in the short run but make things better in the long run is an interesting one. I find such willingness to be limited across the board. Hence the suggestion that the SAS had best be accelarated to open up to 125th ASAP if it is to have any chance at all.
Not true, the popularity and upswing of neighborhoods such as Williamsberg, brooklyn heights, fort green etc is directly related to manhattan residents looking for less expensive housing. There is a large upswell of people who grew up in the suburbs that want to live in a more exciting place where there are activities for themselves and thioer children
Such upswings have revitailized neighborhoods, creadted jobs and yes increased subway usage.
"Yes, with one caveat: these young people living in small spaces are not staying here permanently -- they're living here for a few years before starting familities and moving to the suburbs. The long-term health of the city is of no concern to them.
Is that who we want to be dominating the city's voting booths?"
First of all many of the young profesionals who move to to the city from all over the country and yes from the 5 bouroughs also pump tons of money into the economy and provide jobs for people of all races and religions.
The pay tons of taxes and don't use many city servies. This results in more services to the middle class residents of the outer bouroughs
many stay in the city and raise families. Some move to the outer bouroughs or the suburbs.
They often don't vote in elections. How else would you explain that most manahattan bourough presidents are from the northern part of the borough
"The long-term health of the city is of no concern to them.
Is that who we want to be dominating the city's voting booths?"
The city's poling booths are currently dominated by the unions leadership who obviously do not care about the long term health of the city. They are not willing in any way to help the city out of the current finaicial mess which they have a bif interest in creating.
The average city worker bennifitrs and salary exceed $82,000 a year.
The cost of fringe benniftits have skyrocketed 90% in the last three years. Many of these fringe bennifts are available other places for free, are duplicated by multiple times by each individual union and are not used by many memembers. The costs of these programs are out of control and the union memeber is not getting any addtioal bennifit execept for a large tax bill
A 1997 law gaurentees all city retiree's an 8% return on their pensions and takes the control of hiring and management of the NYCRS from the mayor. Staff has tripples, returns have plumited. The city is stuck paying the difference. The end reult is the pension plan memember(for which I am) gets stuck paying more in his taxes.
The young professionals on the other hand pay through the nose in taxes. Take nothing, don't vote. Some are dumb enough to overpay for housing in a premium location. The end result is all good for long time residents.
The illegal immigrants do far more harm to the city. They pay almost no taxes, push labor rates down, drive up the cost of housing in the outer bouroughs that working class new yorkers would live in(mexican laborer's often pay $200 a person), contribute to the decay of housing due to the fact they don't complain to the city, and send much of their earnings back to thier country draining dollars out of the city economy. These migrant workers are a real problem.
I agree. And before some p.c. crap comes winging this way....remember, this country, like every other country, is composed of citizens. It's a crappy way to put it, but, basically, we agree to submit money to the "government" and in return get a fairly reasonable assumption that we will be allowed to pursue our interests unfettered by what ails most of the rest of the world. I.E., an unending struggle for survival in a realm of corruption, disease, poverty and uselessness. This system is what keeps us able to dream for tomorrow.
But you gotta be legal. I know, I know.....("oh, you CAN'T say that!!") but whatta we gonna do otherwise? Let this marvelous entity get diluted until it dies a sad death? I say no. The foot has to come down. Legal....or out.
I agree. And before some p.c. crap comes winging this way....remember, this country, like every other country, is composed of citizens. It's a crappy way to put it, but, basically, we agree to submit money to the "government" and in return get a fairly reasonable assumption that we will be allowed to pursue our interests unfettered by what ails most of the rest of the world. I.E., an unending struggle for survival in a realm of corruption, disease, poverty and uselessness. This system is what keeps us able to dream for tomorrow.
But you gotta be legal. I know, I know.....("oh, you CAN'T say that!!") but whatta we gonna do otherwise? Let this marvelous entity get diluted until it dies a sad death? I say no. The foot has to come down. Legal....or out.
1) Immigration advocates defend the interests of legal and illegal immigrants without distinction.
2) When public benefits were cut off for immigrants (including food stamps and Medicaid for those working), they were cut off for LEGAL immigrants -- who are not required to pay taxes when times are good, but do not get public benefits if they become injured or ill (food stamps were later restored). And all the civil liberties restrictions put on immigrants post 9-11 also apply whether legal or not.
Something wrong with that.
Arti
I'm not sure that's the case. I believe that if they meet the 10 year limit, they can return home and collect social security -- a good deal given relative purchasing power. Medicare is another matter.
I'm 100% positive (I have looked it up), that unless you are a citizen, you can't collect SS if you don't reside in US.
Arti
Yet more exploitation. As I said, legal has nothing to do with it, but it should.
Illegals can't pay income related taxes, so none of that would apply to them. A person who is forced to pay SS tax may have no intention to even live and work in US for more than a certain period of time, yet on has to pay SS tax, essentialy an insurance premium, but has no means of collecting the benefits.
Arti
I see these tenant-initiated modifications being done all the time in my building.
I sure hope they have the landlord's permission.
"Many a tenant has been burned by redesigning an apartment, only to be hauled into court by an irate landlord, ordered by a judge to pay for a reversal of the work and then slapped with an eviction notice. 'What a tenant may consider to be an improvement,' says tenant attorney Stephen Dobkin, 'a landlord may look at as a breach of the lease.'"
Source: http://www.timeoutny.com/features/343/343ft.apartstay.html
My parents own a two family home and once had a tenant install the most hedius tile's above the kitchen sink. Upon the tenant moving out, thier security deposit did not cover the cost of removing the tiles and resoring the kitchen to it's former condition. We had to haul the tenant to cour to recover the money needed to re-rent the apartment
With that said, rent regualtions can not be completly ellininated at this time. It would destabilize communites.
One aspect of the rent control/stabilization laws needs to be changed immediately is the right to sublease out your unit. Renters should not be able to sub-lease out thier apartment.
What ends up happening is that the new renter pays closes to market rate rent, The landlord does not have the income needed to properly take care of the building. Also rents for non rent control tenants is higher to pay for the rent control tenant that is subleasing his apartment out for
The current rent control laws as written do not give a landlord any incentive to provide more them minimal required services
The secound problem is that the cities building code laws have no teath. The city is nearly powerless to enforce it's building code laws. Violations can be issued, but it hard for the city to collect on them and/or hire crews to do repairs and charge the landlord the differnce.
This would significantly decreae the number of sub-par buildings becasue it would be far cheaper to keep one's building in compliance then to have to pay enfrocable building code vioations fines.
With fewer units falling off the market each year, owners will find it hard to raise rents as the shortage gets reduced.
New housing cost a fortune in this city due to the inflated rates the unions hold builders to
That is already illegal. As is having a rent controlled apartment and a second home where you spend most of your time. As is registering your car outside the city when you in fact live here. As is living outside the city for tax purposes when you live and work here.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
There are many people who can afford market rate rents that are living in rent stabalized apartmetns.
It is these often educated people who once in the apartment, sublease the apartment when they want a bigger space.
My freind John just moved into a rent stabalized apartment in Sheepshead bay. he is paying $600 a month for a one bedroom. He grnad ma lives in the building and he has been on the waiting list since college
He earns between $80-100k a year, is single and drives a BMW.
The Third Avenue bus runs uptown. We're talking about people on the from 68th to 125th Streets going to 59th or below. The Lex Ave buses also run downtown. However, the building of the SAS is unlikely to have much effect on its ridership. The York Ave bus connects with the 59th St station and is not included in either the build or no-build sets of figures.
There's also people who take the crosstown bus to the west side and then a subway down to midtown west. The crosstown buses are packed to the rafters between CPW and 5th Ave in rush hour in both directions.
It's a novel argument. There are only 3 transverse roads through Central Park. You're assuming that the buses are filled with passengers who are transferring to the west side lines to escape the crowded Lex. They might also be travelling in each direction because that is their destination and not downtown. My uncle used to live on E 78th between Park and Lex. He'd take the 79th St crosstown bus but his destination was Barney Greegrass not the IRT. :-)
I've personally observed droves of people getting off a westbound 79th St bus and going down to the B/C at CPW.
I didn't claim it's many people relative to the capacity of a subway system, just that it's one more way people travel that will change if there's an SAS. Certainly it's minor.
Which one did they close while I wasn't looking?
These crosstown buses are packed usually, and the dwell times at major subway intersections at CPW, Broadway, Lex are very large, due to the enormous amount of people getting on/off there to transfer to the trains.
A SAS route that goes crosstown across 125th st would greatly reduce this kind of traffic, and greatly help any uptown commuters go directly to the East side, without clogging the slow busses that plague many people's commutes.
Adequate transfers would make the full length more attractive to riders. Connections to the E/V at 53rd, 4/5/6/7 at 42nd and the L at 14th will increase the potential rider base to the SAS south of 63rd, St.
The SAS is doomed to fail in competition with the Lex because of it's no-express 2 track alignment. That'll keep almost all UES riders heading to Lower Manhattan on the Lex express, even if delays, curves, dwell times and overcrowding negate most of the advantage an express would have.
The 53rd and 14th St transfers will almost certainly be built. I would classify the 42nd St transfer as probable.
The SAS is doomed to fail in competition with the Lex because of it's no-express 2 track alignment.
Let's look at this a bit more analytically.
In terms of travel time, the SAS will be very much comparable to the Lex over similar distances, because: (A) it will use modern signalling technology; (B); it won't have the Lex's dwell time problems at 125th, 42nd, and 14th; and (C) the stations aren't as closely spaced as the Lex local, so there are fewer stops & starts.
People talk about the "perception" of an express being faster. But once the SAS exists, any commuter who has a reasonable choice of using both will try both. It doesn't take great intellect to figure out how much time you're saving/losing. And I suspect the SAS will simply be more comfortable—with new stations, roomer and less crowded trains.
For someone who lives south of 125th and east of 3rd, the walking distance to an SAS station will probably be no longer—and for many it will be shorter—than the walking distance to a Lex station. It's true that the SAS stations are more widely spaced than Lex locals, but the passenger will have less east-west walking. And remember that the north and south entrances of the typical SAS station will be 3-4 blocks apart, making the distance between entrances shorter than it first appears.
In the long run, you need to consider where the passenger is going, not just where he is coming from. Passengers destined for far east side locations (like Hospital Row or the Water Street corridor) will prefer the SAS, because it will go closer to those destinations. Passengers headed for many west side destinations will prefer the SAS's Broadway route, because it goes much farther west than the Lex. Passengers headed downtown who normally board the 6 may choose the SAS, because it provides a 1-seat ride south of the Brooklyn Bridge.
Passengers who normally take the 4/5 may initially prefer the Lex because it makes 3 or 4 fewer stops over the same distance, but they'll quickly figure out how much time that's really "saving" them. OTOH, passengers who normally take the 6 may prefer the SAS because it makes fewer stops. In the long run, I think "where they're going" and "where they're coming from" will dominate over the time actually spent in the train.
The SAS is being built to support 30tph. The only reason to build 4 tracks is if you believe that 60tph along 2nd Ave is necessary—not because of ridiculous perceptions that a 2-track service is too slow.
That's the downside. I'd be interested how the earlier SAS plans dealt with this issue. I'd be interested how THIS plan will deal with this issue, as they are proposing to build the provision to do exactly this.
Ideally, the SAS would capture the outside tracks of the 3rd Ave./138th St. station, and the 6 would relay in the center track. This would leave a cross-platform tranfer for Pelham riders to continue on to the Lex. But I'm not sure how feasible relaying on a single track would be.
As for budget, it should cost no more than the current SAS plan. Instead of 1/2 mile of tunneling west to build a station under the Lex at 125th, there would be 1/2 mile of tunneling north to build a station under the Lex local at 138th. (I see no need for a 125th St. station at 2nd Ave. -- at the entrance of the Triborough Bridge.)
That would leave the 6 with a 3 track terminal at 138th. There would be a direct transfer from Pelham to the Lex local. Since the default route to midtown and downtown for Pelham riders would be to stay on the SAS, the Lex express crowding should finally be eliminated.
I think it's time to point out yet another deep dark prediction buried in the depths of the SDEIS.
The ridership forecast, which some of us don't have too much faith in anyway, essentially says that most Lexington local riders and some new riders will switch to Second Avenue, and most Lexington express riders will stay put. This drops the golden volume-capacity ratio of the local during the peak morning hour to 0.6 with fewer trains, but leaves the express entirely saturated at capacity*.
What gets less focus is that the forecast also expects the Second Avenue line to be saturated with a V:C near 1. That doesn't sound like crowding has been eliminated. Where's the room for service to be expanded à la a Bronx connection? Where's the room for service to be expanded, period?
What's abundantly clear is that if a version of the line as flawed as this one is ever allowed to exist, then it can only exist in the form presented in the SDEIS. Forget about provisions for future expansion at the north end; they're only included for more sinister purposes. This is yet another reason I now favor building "wide" in chunks over hastily building "narrow."
* Just under capacity as opposed to just over, by virtue of a few extra trains being able to run, which owe their existence to decreased dwell times, which have reduced express ridership to thank. It's a nice theory, but I don't really buy it the way it's been presented.
Mark
Their numbers say the crowding on the Q will only be between 72nd and 63rd/Lex. With Pelham capture, it would likely move to 86th or 96th. They don't show what the Q will be like once it leaves the Second Ave. alignment, but I'm guessing many will cross-platform transfer to the F, and loads will be acceptable from there south.
(They also show high V/C ratios below 72nd on the it'll-never-happen T, but only because projections are based on 12 tph. Throw some Queens Blvd trains into that Queens-to-SAS connection, and those numbers will go down.)
Yes, crush loading between two or three stations, but a better level than the current crush loading from 125th to Brooklyn Bridge on the 4/5, or from 125th to 42nd even with SAS.
With a better SDEIS, we'd know the impacts of these alternatives, but as we know too well, they don't share info much. I asked what the ridership will be by station, and they said "wait for the FEIS."
I was worried that the "all or nothing" strategy could give us the latter. But MTA is being smart (this once), and are focusing on the segment with the most benefit. But this means that the lower part will have to stand on its own.
That is why the "T" won't happen: if the "Stubway" has (barely) most of the ridership at 1/3 the cost, then the rest has about the same benefit but with 2/3 the cost.
In other words, the lower part is twice as expensive per rider, and can't stand on its own.
In other words, the lower part is twice as expensive per rider, and can't stand on its own.
Almost exactly as I contended in In Defense of the Second Ave Stubway, only I claimed a 3-1 ratio.
From the SDEIS Summary:
"The northern and southern portions of the alignment would be designed so as not to preclude future Connections to the Bronx and Brooklyn. In the north, a bellmouth would be constructed along Second Avenue north of 125th Street as part of the proposed underground storage yard ... In the south, the Hanover Square Station would be constructed to allow for a potential future extension of Second Avenue Subway service to Brooklyn."
As a general rule, radial lines carry more passengers than orbital lines, because radial lines provide a direct service to the Central Business District. For that reason I prefer a northward (radial) heading of SAS to a westward heading. The SDEIS does not mention a westward extension, but does not "preclude" a northward extension into the Bronx.
Here are some possible ways to extend the SAS northwards:
(A) SAS extends north along Third Avenue to the 149 Street Hub (but does not capture the White Plains line, because SAS trains cannot share that line with the #2 west side IRT). #4, #5 and #6 continue unchanged.
(B) SAS extends north along Grand Concourse to 149 Street, where it captures the Jerome line. #4 terminates at 149 Street. #5 and #6 continue unchanged.
(C) SAS captures the Pelham line at 125 Street. #4 continues unchanged. #5 becomes Lexington local. #6 ceases to exist.
(D) SAS captures the Pelham line at 125 Street. #5 continues unchanged. #4 becomes Lexington local. #6 ceases to exist.
(E) SAS captures the Pelham line at 125 Street. #4 and #5 continue unchanged. #6 terminates at 125 Street.
Of the above, (A) and (B) would be expensive; (C) and (D) would be unpopular; so I choose (E), which is what Simon said.
It should not be a huge engineering feat to perform the actual capture of the Pelham line. Platforms would be shaved back to accommodate the larger trains, but no new stations would be needed. The SAS tunnel would be extended from the bellmouth at 125 Street to some nearby point where it could merge with the existing Pelham line to complete the capture.
I don't think they'll go to 96th, as they will be very close to the 1 mile that's done, then they've got 96th plus two other stations to build, rolling stock, etc. Past 86th, they'd also have to switch digging methods. So they are cutting it off at 86th. It comes down to money, and how much they can get out of the Feds. So far:
* NY is getting billions for WTC transit.
* NY is asking for billions for ESA.
OK, we're asking for alot, but in the upcoming ISTEA authorization, we're focused on SAS, right? No:
* NYC is asking for billions for LIRR to downtown.
* NJ is asking for billions for a new tunnels under the Hudson (ARC).
* NY delegation seems most focused on billions for a new freight tunnel. Weird.
* oh, and "some Manhattanites" want bazillions for SAS.
We'll do well to get to 86th. (In the meantime, I'd like the FEIS to show how to properly interact with the Lex for whenever we finally get the Full Length Stubway.)
I haven't heard that anyone is actually asking for money yet. It's being studied. I think some people think it could come out of the 420 billion FEMA money. I doubt it'll go anywhere if it has to come out of the same pot as ESA and SAS.
I haven't heard that anyone is actually asking for money yet. It's being studied.
I think it goes without saying that the "asking" will soon follow. Pataki and Bloomberg have both more-or-less said so, and without funding the study is an academic exercise that goes nowhere.
I'm afraid I don't grasp the benefit of this. Pelham riders would lose their Lexington Ave ride, and would be routed down Second Ave instead. This could be good or bad news, depending on where you're going, but on the whole I suspect more people's commutes would be impaired than improved. At the end of the day, how is this a net improvement to the transit system?
On the whole, connecting the SAS to the Concourse Line seems like a better deal, since it would give passengers in that corridor an east side option that they don't currently have without transferring at Yankee Stadium.
The purpose of this proposal is to make the overall system more efficient. More transfer options are nice, but the SDEIS indicates major crowding continuing to exist on the backbone of east Manhattan transit, the Lex expresses. Capturing the Pelham line should alleviate this. Pelham riders needing UES Lex stations can easily transfer to it at the 6's new 138th St. terminal.
The Concourse is an IND line, requiring no modification for SAS trains; but it runs close to Jerome Avenue, and has a transfer to the Jerome Avenue line. The SAS would offer a third service to this already well-served corridor, which seems excessive. A long new tunnel would be needed to connect the SAS to the Concourse line, which would be expensive.
An SAS extension along Third Avenue to 149 Street (the Hub), with a station at 138 Street, would provide useful new connections, and nobody would lose, but that too would be expensive.
So I am now more inclined to think that the "no-build" extension might be the best!
And I wonder how it would be done logistically? There would probably be a long period of time while Pelham service was either crippled or unavailable while the stations were rehabilitated. I don't think you could sell it in the community.
Exceptionally Lucid Equipped Vehicle Automated To Operate Regardless.
Ie.: E-L-E-V-A-T-O-R.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Chuck Greene
-Stef
Although, I would like to know when 6688 will be getting her new coat of paint. I would like to try to make that function.
Thanks,
Paul
It's coming along nicely at this time Paul. Stef and helpers have
been working Wednesdays on 6688 since April. There were some wet and cooler days, but 6688 has received a basic final coat on one side. Side door glass has been replaced and transfered with existing side window sash recently obtained from scrapped R-22 work motors. Stef, has been called upon for other civic duties for now, so Wednesdays are on hold for a few weeks.
But I understand, some of the other usual culprits will be about this
Saturday and could use some extra hands willing to get dirty in
applying paint and other tasks. All SubTalkers are welcomed to
participate. Email, Thurston, Stef or I privately if interested.
8-) ~ Sparky
Getting off the subject of RT cars for a moment, but sticking to railcars and
how storage of same is applied at different museums.
At Branford, it brakes not set and chocked. At Seashore, it brakes
not set and trigged. At Rockhill, where I'm now in training, passed
the written, "ALL CARS" are parked with the "Handbrakes SET".
I'm having a blazt, with different folks, a huge selection of varying
equipment from diverse systems. Variety is the spice of life.
Looking forward to the month of June, starts with "The Trolley Era Showcase" at Branford, May 31\June 1. MOD IND trip on June 8 with the Mrs. [Other things to tend do on Saturday, June 7, so will be missing the SMEE MOD Trip], Rockhill Trolley Museum, June 14 & 15, further training. EBT across street will be in operation also with #14 steaming. Back to Branford on June 21 & 22 for the next subway weekend & guest operators. Then June 28 & 29, the IND cars on Saturday & SMEEs on Sunday. What a month of railfaning. >GG<
8-)~ Sparky
What amused me about Branford was how much the OPERATING rules are like NYCTA - safety of course, and how different other rules were (MUCH more reasonable) ... it's a VERY good balance of safety and common sense.
My motor instructor in schoolcar told us horror stories of FREQUENT runaways on the Rockaway line from the layup yard, a serious rollaway wreck in 1937 (somewhere in lower Manhattan I think, but don't remember exactly where it was) and imbued the fear of GHOD in us about making sure that "at least THREE" handbrakes were set on the Arnines. When the tank goes to zero, they'll MOVE with or without benefit of human intervention.
And in that simple common sense way that Branford does things, I *like* the idea of the chocks. Properly applied, they do the job since the trackage is fairly level, and if you screw up, 'tis better to have your chops busted about that "crunching noise" than to put a rig on the ground because you didn't do your walkaround properly. Pretty slick, actually. One of the problems with handbrakes is that you have to have the SENSE to do a rolling brake test (assuming that the car moves at all in switching and that ain't enough of a hint) ... with amateurs, I can see where that could result in flat wheels without adequate supervision.
This is the same policy BTC had. Some things never change.
As to chocks/trigs at BSM, never, never, never. Several of us had bad experiences with chocks in BTC days. Chocks were supposed to be used, but with streetcars it was hit or miss. (Required on the buses.) Some guys would chock cars on trailing axles or chock on the wrong side. (Chocks were supposed to be used on the leading wheel, right hand side.) One day, I went to move a car out of the back of 3 bay to the door. Checked the lead wheel, no chock. Pumped the car up, released the handbrake, released the air brakes and took power. BANG!!! The back of the car rose up and slammed down. Dumped the air, went to the back, finding ther splintered remains of a chock. Damned idiot had chocked the car on the first wheel, third axle. LEFT hand side.
I HATE chocks.
Thanks for the input. BTW, I've made a few splinters with chocks at
Branford over the years, which were placed where not expected.
The "trigs" at Seashore are much larger then the chocks at Branford,
so all I'll say is "kaboom", if you try and ride over one.
Currently, RTY has no handbrake vehicles, so it's handbrakes set.
But, another question, are the "Armstrong Brakes" on air brake
equipped cars, "Handbrakes a\o Parking Brakes". The one's that
are not of the Gooseneck Variety?
8-) ~ Sparky
The United simply added the air brake cylinder to the same brake rigging and the associated one-man equipment and air brake stand to the platforms. The hand brake stands and handles stayed.
It's technically an air brake car, but parking it is the same as any hand brake car - brakes fully released.
As I said, the carhouse is flat, so nothing rolls.
4533 was a bitch when first released after restoration. Refused to stop on the number 2 end (take a full bite, put in lap, wait), grabbed on the number 1 end. Took the Shop two months to finally get the car right, including rebuilding both brake stands and adjusting the slack in the rigging. BTW, on a Brill 21 truck, the slack adjusment is manual and works on the diagonal.
The adjustment on the #1 end adjusts the slack on the #1 and #3 wheel, the adjustment on the #2 end adjusts #2 & 4. and the adjuster are on the left side of the truck on each ed. Go fig.
4533 spent from 1939 to 1963 as the rail bond tester, numbered 3550. It was run from the #2 end and carried a four-wheeled trailer under the #1 end. (The body was jacked up 6 inches to clear the trailer, when we restored the car we removed the extra height.) Since it was never operated from the #1 end until April 1970, when the car became the first car to operate at BSM, nothing was done to the #1 end's brake stand until much later.
First you cut out a door control breaker in the cab on me, now this. Give me a brake.
Rim shot!
I'd like to have kids someday, if I ever get married.:)
-Stef
I take it the hose died RIGHT at the connector? And I trust you guys have some more garden hose for it? :)
Sorry I missed you Jeff, Sparky, Lou and anyone else.
BTW: As usual, the Yellow DCAS card had the D and Q trains to Kings Highway as travel directions, and ommitted the B31 bus as well. DUH!! Aren't we in year 2003 and not 2001?
I'm not sure if I'll have access to SubTalk while I'm gone, but if I do, I'll be posting. If not, I don't think I'll really be missed. Just two weeks.
Jimmy
You know how to strike laughs!
They're a NICE ride. Bigger foamer glass than those damned redbirds. And if you're REALLY good, I'll show ya WHY I consider the redbirds to be like the 142's now. Give you a closeup tour of LoV and HiV, what was BEFORE dem boidies ... MUCH nicer!
But I'd be HAPPY to PERSONALLY take the boy for the ride of his life. Heh. Or better yet, we hand over the motorman's hash pipe to Unca Dougie, with Cohiba in (wrong) hand ... oh wait, you weren't on board for THAT adventure were you? Boowahahahaha ... Unca Selkirk separates the republicans from the democrats through the power of centripetal force. Hell, I'd *PAY* for that! Heh.
I'll settle for E above middle C on the straightaway.
Typical sight on the Slum-Beach Line. That is why Fred knew he was near "home" and the N line.
Add this to the solution. Sprague can be renamed Coney Island and put a bumper block at the end of track. And have a Nathan's Hot Dog Stand either at Sprague or in the yard. Rename "Stony Creek" to "Coney Island Creek".
If that doesn't bring Fred across the country, nothing will.
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Best of all, Acrobat Reader is 100% FREE!!!!!!
Hop on the Adobe site and get it!!
8-) ~ Sparky
It is unknown what will happen to the Amber PL signals still around HUDSON, a few have already been replaced with Amtrak CzPL's. The HUDSON-exit signals shown in my following tribute seem most vulnerable as that section of track might give way to 'C' signals at the entrance to HUDSOn interlocking.
Anyway, my tribute is located at http://palter.org/~brotzman/Towers/
Just scroll down to the HUDSON pics. They are clearly labeled.
The article is below, a 17 page Adobe PDF file.
http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/transrapid-jettrain.pdf
Anyway, the DHS approved $65 million for states to improve mass transit security, part of the overall federal funding for transportation security. The release says:
"The $65 million will be provided through the States to the highest risk transit systems in the country. States could used 20 percent of the award for each transportation agency to compliment state assest at those sites. Allowable use of funds would include:
- Installation of physical barriers.
- Area monitoring systems, such as: video surveillance, motion detectors, thermal IR imagery and chemical/radiological detection systems.
- Intergrated communications systems.
- Opperational activities conducted during ORANGE alert from January 2003 through April 2003 (overtime, limited to 10 percent of the gross award).
If not already completed, each transit system would be required to conduct an assessment and preparedness plan on which to base their resource allocations.
The pertanent numbers, as far as funding for the NY/NJ Metro area goes are:
New York City Transit -- $26,662,867
New Jersey Transit Corp. -- $2,346,366
New York City Department of Transportation -- $1,389,487
Long Island Railroad -- $1,120,414
Port Authority Trans-Hudson Corp. -- $877,356.
Chicago received just over $5 million, for the next highest award after NYC Transit, while Los Angeles received $4,577,600 for the No. 3 spot.
The NYC subway should be seen for the history and arts contained within not just another way to work or school.
I have been in az 22 years but New York City is still My Home.
Mostly those who led and lived in New York State before 1930, also the period when the city's water system, education system, parks and other facilities were built up.
Some credit goes to those who have been here since 1982. For just about everyone in the New York region, transit, not highways, has been the priority.
Those who ran the city and state from 1930 to 1980, on the other hand, deserve blame for the fact that the system isn't better than it is.
Mark
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
(my website is temporarily f'ed up)
Hmmmm :-)
Asbury Park Press Story
Home News Tribune Story
Star Ledger Story
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
By reading they stay awake and alert.
The average time a NYPD officer spends at that post is 1 hour. They do varied assignments and spending only an hour or two at a fixed location is no excuse for reading on the job, unless the station is closed due to a G.O.. When there is no one on the platform then I understand at that point boredom sets in.
If an officer gets bored at post when the station is busy, then that officer cannot be at post in one place, no excuses.
I got a bit nervous when I saw a cop sitting on the platform, but he was too engrossed in his newspaper to bother watching for people like me.
The seats were designed for abnormally skinny, narrow shouldered people. Now the TA is out to penalize passengers based on their body type... I suppose that on the IND cars that have long benches and not "partitioned" seats, it is the judgement of the cop that determines if a rider is wide enough to be ticketed. Do they train cops to spot such violators? Perhapse the TA could equip cops with yard sticks to help make this determination.
On the New IRT trains with the seats down at the ends that fold down, where these designed for 1 or 2 or 3 people? They need to post a sign so that we can avoid being ticketed.
If there are official restrictions on how much seat space you take up then there must also be restrictions as to how much standing room you take up. Passengers with packages, bikes, and strollers are the most obvious violators here, though apperal and body type might also affect compliance. What about passengers that sit in a seat but have a package at their feet taking up valuable standing room?
They need to post these rules and regulations in each of the various types of cars.
I highly doubt it if police officer are writing tickets when a larger persons body overhangs a seat.
If they were doing this thier would already have been a few lawsuitsd. Especially in this city with so many under employed lawyers looking for a case to bring to court
As for the people who put thier feet up, or thier bags across the seat, lets say they were warned a few months back. I have to say I am more contious of resting my bag on the seat next to me or putting my feet up.
Although it is comfortable to put one's feet up on r68 foward facing seets. Ones feet are often dirty and wet. I would not want to clean uo the seat with my pants or jacket
Why aren't more police officers issuing summonses for people who have half of their upper bodies leaning over the edge of the platform? THAT is a more serious safety issue than someone putting their feet up on a seat on an otherwise empty train.
We are seeing more and more smokers on the subway, especially in the stations outside the paid area and the cops just look the other way.
I am yet to see a cop bust someone's head open for playing their walkman too loud of for blocking the doors or for running down the stairs.
This is why they need to post the rules in more specific and legal terms.
Last I heard, it wasn't just POLITE not to put your dirty feets where someone else was planning to sit - before the leash laws, it was an invite to your own personal Bernie Goetz episode. It's rude to do that for one, and unsanitary as well.
Now before I come off like a pooper (I'm old school I guess, but respect for the subway car and your fellow citizens should be habitual rather than enforced) ... MAYBE they'll do something about the battery dewds and dewdettes, the panhandlers and the bible-thumpers as well.
You pays your money for a ride. In peace ... and footprints on the seats DO cause damage to suits and dresses that land in whatever yer shoes have that are for real - so I can see the point to it, though there's many OTHER "quality of life" issues that need addressing as well. If they go after them all with equal vigor, then I don't have a problem with those putting their feet up on seats getting a ticket *TOO* ...
Damn ... hate to sound like a grouch here, but I'd never do that. Leg stretched, perhaps if the seating allowed that, but bottoms of shoes, never did that.
Peace,
ANDEE
1. Walking from car to car while the train is in motion.
2. Having at least one foot ON the yellow tactile strip if the train is not in the station.
3. Carrying an open cup, can, or bottle of any type of beverage, even water.
4. Standing in front of the open door when people are trying to get out.
5. Pushing people aside, not letting them out (Misdemendor Assault?)
6. Operating a walkman audiable to others.
7. Using a speakerphone in the process of a call (noise, do you hear this Nextel?)
8. Leaning over the edge of the platform.
And at 19 and tall and rather thin, I wasn't THAT imposing a figure when I did so. Folks would PHEAR me now. Heh.
Moo.
Passing between cars of a moving train is one thing. Cops probably have to do that from time to time in the performance of their duties. Otherwise, they should be setting good examples for the riding public.
As far as the subways, I've seen police officers smoking on platforms-especially elevated ones- and in stairways and passageways.
A couple of police officers with whom I'm friendly concede that many of their colleagues regularly indulge in activities that would earn civilians summons or arrest for a simple reason: BECAUSE THEY CAN.
Not only have I seen cops smoking but I have seen a cop clipping his nails onto the floor of the IRT and another time there was a cop eating sunflour seeds and spitting the shells onto the floor of the car.
These are the ticket writers.
You should be happy about that; he isn't taking up a space that you could use. And I'm sure if there's a fire, his windows would get broken like anyone else's :).
That WOULD be nice, especially the latter two items. There are rules on the books prohibiting disruptive behavior- something a lot of these preachers most definitely indulge in. Teenagers performing gymnastic and/or rap routines under loud boom boxes also fit into this category.
There must be some rule against blocking platforms and passageways, in which case those vendors who spread out blankets on which to display their wares IN RUSH HOUR must be fair game. This would especially apply to the platform at Lex/60; connecting passageways to the 7 at Grand Central and 5th Avenue; and stairway landings at many station entrances. These areas are already crowded enough without precious space being taken up by bootleg videos- and the people who stop to check them out.
If the police are going to give out tickets to people who put their feet on seats (certainly a sanitary nuisance) in empty cars, then what about people who put their packages on the seats next to them in a car full of standees? The city's budget deficit would quickly turn to a comparable surplus if this were enforced- especially on weekends.
--Mark
Which reminds me of the dining room table I saw on a NB 1 train in upper Manhattan a few months ago. I hope it was going to 242nd, since it wouldn't have fit through the HEETs at the stations along the way. (I saw it at 215th.) I'm surprised it fit onto the train to begin with.
A few months ago, I exited at the 50th st. end of the 51st st IRT station, and as I reached streetlevel, I was blocked by a rolldown gate. Since I couldnt exit I went back downstairs, and there was no clerk there, so I jumped over the turnstyle, and was stopped by an undercover cop. The cop was about to write me a ticket, and I tried to tell him what happened, after about 5 minutes of arguing, I convinced him to check the gate, after he realized that I was correct, he was very apologetic.
You should report this serious matter to Stations, it is a reckless disregard of safety, someone could've been a victim of a violent crime, had the station not be busy as it always is.
#3 West End Jeff
R-32
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
There are now one or two trains of R-62's on the 3, but I don't think the flat-seats have moved off the 4. Eventually they'll be on the 3, of course.
R46 6078, it has a Brown Diamond R on the front bulkhead
R36 9577 with the robin's-egg-blue windowsills
And the R32 (cannot remember the number) that had a bench seat in a seafoam green color as opposed to the usual gray.
R-32
Wasn't there a R40 Slant that had the Broadway lines in the same deep orange-yellow color? I remember seeing it once or twice on the N, and on NYCRail.com's messageboard there were a lot of posts about whether the "N" was in Brown (for Nassau) or in dark yellow (pre-1979 color)
wayne
Peace
David
Are the 10 experimental R38 AC propulsion cars still running?
The R40/42 mixed marriage (4464/4664) set is still in service, although I'm not sure if it's at CI or ENY.
Since they were converted back, they were once again slow sluggish field shunted.
R-32
R32 #3822 (maybe 3922) - one of the windows were restored back to pre GOH style-two window panels at the top as opposed to one.
*These cars are the R32GE cars which have a stainless steel sill covering the upper part of the carbon steel doorsill.
**These cars may have been scrapped. I have not seen them in service in a few years.
-Adam
(enynova5205@aol.com)
Flushing, Main Street
Times Square, Manhattan
Then as I was going up the stairs at Main Street, I spotted a R62A (couldn't get the number) that had a sign from a R62. Looked something like this (pretend the font is Aksidenz)...
Main Street Flushing,Queens
Times Square
Manhattan
I'm guessing it was discontinued because of merge constraints, or because of the lack of capacity at any of the available northern termini. Was this in fact the reason?
There is that, and the fact that Broadway Brooklyn trains have only eight cars, while the V has 10. They'd probably have to run the J/Z (12 tph) through to Queens Blvd. if anything, leaving only the M on the Nassau Loop.
This might be worth doing if the Montigue Tunnel were connected to the Atlantic Avenue branch, as discussed extensively here. The LIRR connector service would relay north of Chambers on the pre-Chrystie Manhattan Bridge connection tracks. That service, with the M, would provide 18 trains per hour on Nassau Street from Downtown Brooklyn and Jamaica. On the other hand, Broadway-Brooklyn service would be 2/3 Midtown 1/3 Downtown, a better split than today.
I have seen reference to that plant a couple of years of ago, but I would be interested in seeing how they would plan to build it now that all the money has been spent on the new LIRR Brooklyn Terminal.
(C) 207 St-Metropolitan Ave
CPW Local, 8 Av Local, Houston St, Chrystie, WB, Broadway, Myrtle.
6AM-11PM daily
peak hrs 7-8 TPH
(E) Jamaica Ctr-Euclid Av (rush hrs to Rock Pk to replace specials)
same as now, but extended through Fulton/Cranberry via Fulton St Local.
24/7
peak hrs 16 TPH
(F) 179 St-Coney Island (Av X)
Hillside Exp (rush hrs), QB Exp, 63 St, 6 Av, Houston, Rutgers, Crosstown Exp, Culver Exp (rush hrs)
24/7
peak hrs 14 TPH
(M) Metropolitan Ave-Chambers St
same as proposed midday route
rush hours only
peak hrs 10 TPH
(V) 179 St (rush hrs)-Kings Highway (rush hrs)/Church Av (non-rush hrs)
Hillside-QB Lcl, 53 St, 6 Av, Houston, Rutgers, Crosstown-Culver Local
peak hrs 8-9 TPH
Comments, anyone?
(C) 207 St-Metropolitan Ave
CPW Local, 8 Av Local, Houston St, Chrystie, WB, Broadway, Myrtle.
6AM-11PM daily
peak hrs 7-8 TPH
(E) Jamaica Ctr-Euclid Av (rush hrs to Rock Pk to replace specials)
same as now, but extended through Fulton/Cranberry via Fulton St Local.
24/7
peak hrs 16 TPH
(F) 179 St-Coney Island (Av X)
Hillside Exp (rush hrs), QB Exp, 63 St, 6 Av, Houston, Rutgers, Crosstown Exp, Culver Exp (rush hrs)
24/7
peak hrs 14 TPH
(M) Metropolitan Ave-Chambers St
same as proposed midday route
rush hours only
peak hrs 6 TPH
(V) 179 St (rush hrs)-Kings Highway (rush hrs)/Church Av (non-rush hrs)
Hillside-QB Lcl, 53 St, 6 Av, Houston, Rutgers, Crosstown-Culver Local
peak hrs 8-9 TPH
Comments, anyone?
This plan would be better if it were to turn at Rego Park and head down the Rockaway ROW to the Rockaways, giving a new designation. Also why would you let the (C) go to 207, let the (A) contiune going to 207 and the C terminates at 168 St.
The (F) going via Crosstown don't count on that and letting the (V) take the load of handling passengers and its a local via 6 Av forget about it. I say let the V head to Metro Av, Broadway Junction or use the long disused Canarsie-Jamaica connection to run via the L to Rockaway Parkway.
By "Crosstown" I meant the segment from Bergen to Church. Sorry for the confusion. The "Culver" line technically doesn't start until Ditmas, so "Culver Express" means it runs express from Church to KH, Crosstown Exp means it runs from Bergen to Church express. F on the G? Now why in the world would I do a thing like that?
Also why would you let the (C) go to 207, let the (A) contiune going to 207 and the C terminates at 168 St.
As I have said (see my other posts) the 1 extra C consist allows the C to go to 191/200/207 all day to make up for the 5 daily A trains lost to the E.
IIRC, that section is AKA "The Smith Street Subway". >GG<
8-)~ Sparky
You will also get people BS-ing that actually using the flying junction at W4th St causes delays.
Actually there's a real problem: does C (7/8) + F (14) + V (8/9) even fit? It's 30tph, so it would be tight.
Also C (7/8) + J (6) + M (10) + Z (6) is 29/30tph which may be pushing the Willy B a bit.
I'm sorry, but this plan just cries waste of rolling stock!
The 1 tph extra E will come from the F that loses 1 tph.
By improving the practices at 179 St terminal, the V to 179 would be feasible. The difference between going to 179, empty, turnaround and 71, empty, turnaround is one of time, and the 1-2 extra trainsets needed for that would come from excess F's.
The E to Rock Park will come from the A no longer going there (although only every 2nd-3rd train would go through).
By combining the C and M, the M isn't needed west of Essex and the C isn't needed south of W4, so that frees up their rolling stock. The C's would all go to the E, and some E's may turn at Canal or WTC to prevent saturating the Cranberry/Fulton merge or providing too much Fulton service, so no extra cars will be needed.
This leaves the M's rollingstock for travels between Essex and Bay Parkway. That's about 6 trains, or 48-64 cars, which would be used to extend the G to Church (most needed would be 2 trains = 8X75' = 600' = 10 of those 48-64 cars). The rest would go to extending the V, and maybe two or three more trains would be needed. Scratch the M to Chambers during rush.
So that requires about 38 more (60') cars. Another 80 if you keep the M to Chambers.
(E) Jamaica Ctr-Euclid Av (rush hrs to Rock Pk to replace specials)
What line would serve WTC? True it's not busy now. But what happens when the towers are rebuilt?
(A)(B)(C)(D) unchanged
(E) variant 1: Jamaica Center - Queens Exp - 8th Av Lcl - WTC - 6tph
variant 2: Jamaica Center - Queens Exp - 8th Av Lcl - Cranberry - Culver - CI - 6tph
Variant 2 does not operate nights or weekends.
(F) withdrawn
(G) unchanged
(J) 179/Hillside - Queens Exp - 63rd St - 6th Av Lcl - Jamaica Lcl, skip-stop when (Z) runs - 6tph
(L) unchanged
(M) 179/Hillside - Queens Exp - 63rd St - 6th Av Lcl - Metropolitan - 6tph
Nights and Weekends Broadway/Myrtle - Metropolitan only
(N)(Q) unchanged
(R) nights and weekends Northern Terminal switched to QBP
(S) Essex St - Broad St - 10tph - Monday thru Friday 7am-7pm
(S Rock Pk)(S Franklin) unchanged
(V) Continental - Queens Lcl - 53rd St - 6th Av Lcl - Culver - CI - 8tph
(W) unchanged
(Z) 179/Hillside - Queens Exp - 63rd St - 6th Av Lcl - Jamaica Skip-Stop - 6tph - Monday thru Friday 7am-9am, 4pm-6pm
What's serving Nassau 7pm through 7am and on weekends?
wayne
There is no increase in J/Z service. The extension over 6th Av and QB is as a replacement of the F train.
The J and Z, surprisingly enough, using the Chrystie St connector, being the entire point of that post.
As far as the real area of contention, south of West Fourth, the problem you would have long-term with such a plan is from the downtown real estate people and the Lower Manhattan Redevlopment Corp. folks around the WTC site, who would complain about a loss of service to Chambers on the local -- under your plan, nothing at all would terminate there during peak use hours. Also the A and E combination through Cranberry would be pushing the limit on TPH during rush hours, since there are more E trains during rush hours than there are C trains, though the MTA would have the option of short-turning 40-50 percent of the E trains at Chambers-WTC, which would solve that problem and partially solve the WTC terminal platform question.
The other problem, as already mentioned in another reply, is the West Fourth-B'way Lafayette bottleneck. Can you fit all the F trains, all the V trains and all the C trains onto one track during rush hours? It's certainly not impossible to put three lines onto one track -- the B/D/Q shared trackage from DeKalb to Rockefeller Center for years -- but as with merging the E and A south of Canal, you'd be cutting it close.
The only consistent problem is the W4 bottleneck. And if on 4th Ave, the R can run less than 1/2 a station behind the M in rush hour, and the N can run 1/2 station behind that R, the merge can be done right. There is a platform at both levels of Bergen and Bway/Laf. Every other F can wait for the V to cross in front at Bergen, and every other F can wait at 2nd for the C to cross. (This is assuming a delay, because with proper scheduling nothing should be timed to wait at all). Southbound the F can wait at 57/6 so V's keep moving and don't interfere with the E, and the only (serious) problem that leaves is the C/E and F/V southbound at West 4th. (Northbound E can wait at Spring.)
(C) 207 St-Metropolitan Ave
CPW Local, 8 Av Local, Houston St, Chrystie, WB, Broadway, Myrtle.
6AM-11PM daily
peak hrs 7 TPH
(E) Jamaica Ctr-Euclid Av (rush hrs to Rock Pk to replace specials)
same as now, but extended through Fulton/Cranberry via Fulton St Local. 1/2 of (E) trains turn at WTC to avoid oversaturating Cranberry/Fulton or severing WTC platform.
24/7
peak hrs 16 TPH
(F) 179 St-Coney Island (Av X)
Hillside Exp (rush hrs), QB Exp, 63 St, 6 Av, Houston, Rutgers, Crosstown Exp, Culver Exp (rush hrs)
24/7
peak hrs 14 TPH
(G) 71 Av-Church Av (wkdys) or Smith-9th (other times)
normal route
24/7
peak hrs ( < 30 TPH - R TPH - V TPH) = G TPH
============NOT NECCESSARY============
(M) Metropolitan Ave-Chambers St
same as proposed midday route
rush hours only
peak hrs 3 TPH
========================================
(V) 179 St (rush hrs)-Kings Highway (rush hrs)/Church Av (non-rush hrs)
Hillside-QB Lcl, 53 St, 6 Av, Houston, Rutgers, Crosstown-Culver Local
peak hrs 7-8 TPH
There's no reason to extend the C to 207th. The A handles the north end of the line just fine, and, knowing IND passengers, nobody will take the C anyway (except for the handful going to CPW local stations), even though it only takes 3 minutes more than the A to get to Midtown and it might meet a D at 125th.
Your C only runs weekdays, and your optional M only runs rush hours. What covers nights and weekends, a C shuttle?
Turning alternate E's at WTC will create confusion at Canal. Anybody who takes the wrong train has an annoying transfer at WTC/Chambers to get back on track. That's not to say it couldn't be done, but you asked for flaws.
When Rockaways service was reorganized in 1992, one of the selling points was the direct express service from Rockaway Park. You're replacing it with direct local service -- and with much more service than is needed.
Switching the C at W4 will cause occasional merging delays. Again, it can be done, and it may well be a desireable service pattern overall, but delays themselves are never good.
Look at the Kings Highway area track map. How would you switch the NB F from the local track to the express track? It can't be done anymore. Either a new switch would have to be added or the V would have to run through to Stillwell to cover the remaining local stops.
When Jamaica Center first opened, the rush hour R ran local to 179th and the F ran express, but complaints from passengers at Hillside local stops (which until then had always had direct express service south of Continental) did away with that service pattern. You're restoring the same pattern. In addition, your extended V will get hopelessly delayed at Continental behind G's and R's preparing to relay.
Jamaica Center can only handle 12 tph. At least 4 tph of your E would have to run to 179th (or elsewhere).
There's no reason to extend the C to 207th. The A handles the north end of the line just fine, and, knowing IND passengers, nobody will take the C anyway (except for the handful going to CPW local stations), even though it only takes 3 minutes more than the A to get to Midtown and it might meet a D at 125th.
As I have said, this is to compensate for the 5 daily A trains lost to the E (Rock Park).
Your C only runs weekdays, and your optional M only runs rush hours. What covers nights and weekends, a C shuttle?
Yes, I meant to put that in there (but didn't). The C would run from Metro Av-Myrtle Av at night, and either 1) the B would be restored on weekends, or 2)the C could run through to 168 St on weekends.
When Rockaways service was reorganized in 1992, one of the selling points was the direct express service from Rockaway Park. You're replacing it with direct local service -- and with much more service than is needed.
The extension of the (E) in place of the (C) has equal TPH, but the trains are 120' longer. I feel these longer trains should be put to use. I thought of sending it to Lefferts instead (Lefferts is closer than the Rockaways) but that would cause a conflict at night when you have two split (E) services (one in Manhattan and one Euclid-Lefferts). Replacing the A to Far Rock makes no sense, obviously.
Switching the C at W4 will cause occasional merging delays. Again, it can be done, and it may well be a desireable service pattern overall, but delays themselves are never good.
I agree somewhat, although such delays are inevitable and happen anyway. Might as well at least get a good service pattern in return.
Look at the Kings Highway area track map. How would you switch the NB F from the local track to the express track? It can't be done anymore. Either a new switch would have to be added or the V would have to run through to Stillwell to cover the remaining local stops.
The V could deadhead to Avenue X yard, reverse and stop at Ave X and Ave U northbound, while the F switches to express at Ave U. In fact, F/V trains in the peak hour would most likely come from the yard anyway, so half the Fs would already be on the middle track and half the Vs would be able to start at Avenue X. People taking (F) from Stillwell can transfer at Avenue X for the (V) to Avenue U (or they can walk 3 blocks).
When Jamaica Center first opened, the rush hour R ran local to 179th and the F ran express, but complaints from passengers at Hillside local stops (which until then had always had direct express service south of Continental) did away with that service pattern. You're restoring the same pattern. In addition, your extended V will get hopelessly delayed at Continental behind G's and R's preparing to relay.
SCREW THEM!!! For crying out loud, if they want their express that badly the V can be timed to meet the F at one or more express stations. If they want to save 10-12 minutes they will change for the F or walk to an express stop. If they want a seat they will stay on the V. Everyone thought the V would do nothing, but it turns out some people would prefer a seat over the 10-12 minute savings, especially since the F no longer goes to 53 St. That was not the case with the F/R service. There are major differences to consider (R via 60 vs. V via 53, R via Bway vs. V via 6th Ave, F via 63 vs. old F via 53).
Jamaica Center can only handle 12 tph. At least 4 tph of your E would have to run to 179th (or elsewhere).
The E currently does run 4 trains to Hillside.
Some of the Rock Park A trains don't run all the way to 207th, and even if they did, they'd be running in the opposite direction of the peak flow. No compensation is needed.
The extension of the (E) in place of the (C) has equal TPH, but the trains are 120' longer. I feel these longer trains should be put to use. I thought of sending it to Lefferts instead (Lefferts is closer than the Rockaways) but that would cause a conflict at night when you have two split (E) services (one in Manhattan and one Euclid-Lefferts). Replacing the A to Far Rock makes no sense, obviously.
No, the point I'm addressing is that you're replacing direct Rock Park express service with local service on the E, and Rock Park passengers are sure to complain bitterly, as though their lives depended on direct express service.
Here's an alternate idea for you (which will also generate bitter complaints): run the E to Lefferts at all times, including nights. Send all off-peak A's to Far Rock; rush hour specials will also serve Lefferts and Rock Park. There would be no late night A service, except for a shuttle between Euclid and Far Rock (if practical, the Rock Park shuttle would be extended to Euclid late nights to avoid the need for a double transfer). The C would run at all times between 168th and Metro, and at night (only!) would be extended to 207th. What do you think?
I agree somewhat, although such delays are inevitable and happen anyway. Might as well at least get a good service pattern in return.
Agreed. I'm point out flaws, not fatal flaws.
The V could deadhead to Avenue X yard, reverse and stop at Ave X and Ave U northbound, while the F switches to express at Ave U. In fact, F/V trains in the peak hour would most likely come from the yard anyway, so half the Fs would already be on the middle track and half the Vs would be able to start at Avenue X. People taking (F) from Stillwell can transfer at Avenue X for the (V) to Avenue U (or they can walk 3 blocks).
I suppose that would work, but it sounds needlessly complex.
SCREW THEM!!! For crying out loud, if they want their express that badly the V can be timed to meet the F at one or more express stations. If they want to save 10-12 minutes they will change for the F or walk to an express stop. If they want a seat they will stay on the V. Everyone thought the V would do nothing, but it turns out some people would prefer a seat over the 10-12 minute savings, especially since the F no longer goes to 53 St. That was not the case with the F/R service. There are major differences to consider (R via 60 vs. V via 53, R via Bway vs. V via 6th Ave, F via 63 vs. old F via 53).
I think I struck a nerve. Sorry.
I also think you've misanalyzed the V. The V doesn't pick up many passengers at Continental going all the way to Manhattan. It picks up (a) passengers who board at local stations between Continental and Roosevelt and prefer to lose two minutes on average than to transfer to a packed E or F, and (b) passengers who board at local stations between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza who don't have anything to gain from transferring to an express at Queens Plaza except that that used to be the only way to reach 53rd and 6th.
And you still haven't addressed how you'd run all those V's through while turning G's and R's at Continental. Trains must be cleared out before relaying and it takes a few minutes to clear out a train.
The E currently does run 4 trains to Hillside.
Not 4 tph -- 4 trains per rush hour. They leave 179th at (approximately) 7:12am, 7:31am, 7:51am, 8:11am, 3:57pm, 4:16pm, and 4:36pm; they arrive at 179th at 6:01pm, 6:21pm, 7:25pm, and 8:06pm. You'd have to send a few more. I only pointed it out because you didn't.
Here's an alternate idea for you (which will also generate bitter complaints): run the E to Lefferts at all times, including nights. Send all off-peak A's to Far Rock; rush hour specials will also serve Lefferts and Rock Park. There would be no late night A service, except for a shuttle between Euclid and Far Rock (if practical, the Rock Park shuttle would be extended to Euclid late nights to avoid the need for a double transfer). The C would run at all times between 168th and Metro, and at night (only!) would be extended to 207th. What do you think?
Actually that's better. I don't see Lefferts riders (closer) complaining more than Rock Park riders.
I suppose that would work, but it sounds needlessly complex.
They've done worse.
I think I struck a nerve. Sorry.
Not really. No need to apologize.
And you still haven't addressed how you'd run all those V's through while turning G's and R's at Continental. Trains must be cleared out before relaying and it takes a few minutes to clear out a train.
It can take as little as 40 seconds. Regardless, a (simple wooden) platform could be built over the track from 71 Av to Jamaica. If anyone is still in the relay they can get off here, and change for the E/F/V on the upper level at 75th Avenue. This way trains can keep going at Continental and don't have to sit there. By 75 the V will be gone and only 2 routes (G/R) need to be turned. A platform is not needed on the other side. Trains can still get to Jamaica Yard by switching back at the eastern end. During off-hours when trains run less often the relay at 71st can continue as normal. If trains sitting on the track is a problem, they can keep going through Jamaica Yard via the loop track and come out in the opposite direction, and enter 71st.
This is what people should send in response to the 2nd Av. and upcoming Manhattan Bridge hearings.
212 new cars have arrived on their property. That's 21 new trains. The "V" would only need an extension to Church av (AS A LOCAL PEOPLE!!!). 21 trains is enough for that purpose.
Oh yeah, I remeber those proposals a while back, sending the V to Metro Av or Broadway Jucntion to supplement J and/or M service, 2 Av IMO is a bad terminal for the V but they had no choice [or do thdey?]
C 207 St, Inwood - Metropolitan Ave( all times)
Z Eliminated
J Jamaica Center - 95 Street, Brooklyn( weekdays, skip-stop Rush Hours, see M)
M Jamaica Center - Bay Pkwy, Brooklyn( rush hours, skip-stop with J 121 St-Myrtle Ave)
J Jamaica Center - Broad Street, Manhattan( nights, weekends)
E Jamaica Center - Lefferts Blvd via Fulton Local( all times)
A 207 St Inwood - Far Rockaway via Fulton Exp( all times, rush hour specials to Rockaway Park, nites local)
S Rockaway Park Shuttle unchanged
K 168 Street - World Trade Center( weekdays, rush hours) via 8 Ave local
There is no need for late night or weekend service to the WTC stub platforms late nights or weekends. Once the site is developed and business is up and running, Wall Street biggies will not be coming by the numbers during these hours. The Chambers St main line platform is sufficient for these service patterns.
And for visitors to the WTC, we still have the other subway lines around the WTC.
1) Can 207th Street handle the relaying of 2 services ?
2) Can the Cranberry tunnel handle the A nd E ? It didn't do it very well for the month after 9/11/01
You might as well call the M the Z.
I'd rather send the V to Metropolitan Avnue, and the J to south Brooklyn.
You really should avoid any kind of videotaping at RR stations unless you ckeck first with the powers to be.
Among the areas you should AVOID videotaping altogether (even with written permission, or unrestricted allowance) within you line of sight anywhere are: BRIDGES, BUS STATIONS, ELECTRICAL AND NUCLEAR (ESPECIALLY NUKE PLANTS) POWER PLANTS, GOVERNMENT OFFICES, ANY PLACE WHERE LARGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE WOULD ORDINARY CONGREGATE LIKE YANKEE STADIUM, LANDMARK INSTITUTIONS (GCT IS FORBIDDEN), OR SKYSCRAPERS OVER 500 FEET TALL.
: )
Mark
You could even sit in your SUV-height vehicle (if applicable)
and film out your front windshield...
I've got a 6 inch (152mm) Dobsonian Reflector, all I need is an SLR camera, a T-adaptor and a perch over a yard or railroad tracks.
It's not quite a 1 meter Hubble, but I think it might do for rivit photographing from a good mile away! Plus the hanhguided alt-az Dobsonian mounting capable of negative altitude allows for much easier tracking of odd-ball things (trains, planes [Even seen an NJ ANG F-16!], and satellites) than a Equitoral tripod mounting would allow.
Sometime I'm gonna have to talk a friend in a dorm overlooking 30th St into letting me get up there with the scope!
http://www.meade.com/catalog/lx/16_lx200gps.html
Nah, I think it'd take something like this before they'd catch on! Set this puppy up on the Empire State Building and study the details of the C3 cars sitting in LIC yard!
--Mark
'I'm going photographing, anyone want to come along as a tripod?'
Of course the idea is to be a LOOOOONG way away on public property (or private property with an OK) and shoot just like you're there, so MTA tripod rules be damned!
MTA Police does not patrol the subway. NYPD has the subway system, SIRT has their own police force, and if I'm not mistaken, Bridges and Tunnels also have their own police. MTA Police is strickly for the Long Island Railroad and Metro-North Railroad.
I'll be impresssed either way, but a photographic 3d rendering would be a very impressive achievment.
-Robert King
http://www.phillytrolley.org/coreldraw.html
See how a photograph of a PCC streetcar was used to construct a basic part of a blueprint of a PCC car using AutoCAD? Then the blueprint was fed into something like Autodesk 3D studio, which then produced the final 3D rendering using standard colours from its pallette and lighting effects included in the software. The result here is a good 3d rendering of part of a streetcar. But there's no way it looks like the photograph.
----
If you had a complete set of photographs of the streetcar, a complete blueprint for it could be developed in AutoCAD and then it could be rendered from any perspective in 3D studio, producing a complete 3D representation of the PCC. All you need is a complete set of blueprints in AutoCAD and then you can show the PCC in 3D representation any way you want, but it would still be rendered using 3D studio's computer generated 'painted surfaces' and 'glass' for the windows, etc. The end result is a picture of the PCC which looks artificial, like a model.
----
The second, more difficult approach I'm thinking of is to start out again with a complete set of photographs of the PCC and bring them into the computer. Then, use (or write) a computer program to generate composite photographs of the PCC from whatever perspective you want, using the existing photographs as its basis. The end result from this approach is a new picture of the PCC that looks more like an actual photograph as opposed to a frame taken out from a 3D animation.
The way I'd go about doing this is to go back to actual photographs, and take perspective shots of the PCC from each side and, if possible, the top. Then, I'd use the photographs of the PCC to make a blueprint in AutoCAD. Then I'd apply the photographs of the PCC to the blueprint in 3D studio or something better suited for this purpose, and render the final image of whatever perspective desired from the pictures layered on top of the 3D blueprint. That way, you'd end up with a 3D composite photograph (as opposed to a 100% computer generated construct) of the PCC from pretty much any desired perspective.
---
Do you understand what I'm asking about the 3D rendering of Grand Central, whether it's going to be a 100% computer generated image or a 3D rerendering of photographs?
-Robert King
I haven't done anything like that since 1995 or 1996.
-Robert King
Then I'll examine them to reproduce the materials. The cieling however will probably be a straight photograph.
If I do the lighting right, you shouldn't be able to tell the difference unless you go around inspecting the veins in GCTs marble and other surfaces. This one uses all standard materials except the map (from the MTA website).
I'll be impresssed either way, but a photographic 3d rendering would be a very impressive achievment.
I'd be happy if I could do a Fiat Lux-ish GCT too.
Perhaps some rules about flash photography.
Also, I suspect they can get you for loitering if you stick around any one place too long.
--Mark
There is no permit.
Where can I get a copy of the law?
Courtesy of Terry Kennedy
It is encumbent upon all railfans to continue to exercise these rights and report any violation by police or others to Metro North or any other transit agency. Also, a complaint to the ACLU would be in order. We must not let our freedoms erode bit-by-bit!
The General Rule
The general rule in the United States
is that anyone may take photographs
of whatever they want when they are
in a public place or places where they
have permission to take photographs.
Absent a specific legal prohibition
such as a statute or ordinance, you are
legally entitled to take photographs.
Examples of places that are traditionally
considered public are streets,
sidewalks, and public parks.
Property owners may legally prohibit
photography on their premises
but have no right to prohibit others
from photographing their property
from other locations. Whether you
need permission from property owners
to take photographs while on their
premises depends on the circumstances.
In most places, you may reasonably
assume that taking photographs
is allowed and that you do not
need explicit permission. However,
this is a judgment call and you should
request permission when the circumstances
suggest that the owner is likely
to object. In any case, when a property
owner tells you not to take photographs
while on the premises, you are
legally obligated to honor the request.
Some Exceptions to the Rule
There are some exceptions to the
general rule. A significant one is that
commanders of military installations
can prohibit photographs of specific
areas when they deem it necessary to
protect national security. The U.S.
Department of Energy can also prohibit
photography of designated
nuclear facilities although the publicly
visible areas of nuclear facilities are
usually not designated as such.
Members of the public have a very
limited scope of privacy rights when
they are in public places. Basically,
anyone can be photographed without
their consent except when they have
secluded themselves in places where
they have a reasonable expectation of
privacy such as dressing rooms, restrooms,
medical facilities, and inside
their homes.
Permissible Subjects
Despite misconceptions to the contrary,
the following subjects can
almost always be photographed lawfully
from public places:
accident and fire scenes
children
celebrities
bridges and other infrastructure
residential and commercial buildings
industrial facilities and public utilities
transportation facilities (e.g., airports)
Superfund sites
criminal activities
law enforcement officers
Who Is Likely to Violate Your Rights
Most confrontations are started by
security guards and employees of
organizations who fear photography.
The most common reason given is
security but often such persons have
no articulated reason. Security is
rarely a legitimate reason for restricting
photography. Taking a photograph
is not a terrorist act nor can a
business legitimately assert that taking
a photograph of a subject in public
view infringes on its trade secrets.
On occasion, law enforcement officers
may object to photography but
most understand that people have the
right to take photographs and do not
interfere with photographers. They do
have the right to keep you away from
areas where you may impede their
activities or endanger safety. However,
they do not have the legal right
to prohibit you from taking photographs
from other locations.
They Have Limited Rights to Bother,
Question, or Detain You
Although anyone has the right to
approach a person in a public place
and ask questions, persistent and
unwanted conduct done without a
legitimate purpose is a crime in many
states if it causes serious annoyance.
You are under no obligation to answer
such questions in any state and do not
have to disclose your identity or the
purpose of your photography.
If the conduct goes beyond mere
questioning, all states have laws that
make coercion and harassment criminal
offenses. The specific elements
vary among the states but in general it
is unlawful for anyone to instill a fear
that they may injure you, damage or
take your property, or falsely accuse
you of a crime just because you are
taking photographs.
Private parties have very limited
rights to detain you against your will
and may be subject to criminal and
civil charges should they attempt to
do so. Although the laws in most
states authorize citizen’s arrests, such
authority is very narrow. In general,
citizen’s arrests can be made only for
felonies or crimes committed in the
person’s presence. Failure to abide by
these requirements usually means
that the person is liable for a tort such
as false imprisonment.
They Have No Right to Confiscate
Your Film
Sometimes agents acting for entities
such as owners of industrial plants
and shopping malls may ask you to
hand over your film. Absent a court
order, private parties have no right to
confiscate your film. Taking your film
directly or indirectly by threatening to
use force or call a law enforcement
agency can constitute criminal offenses
such as theft and coercion. It can
likewise constitute a civil tort such as
conversion. Law enforcement officers
may have the authority to seize film
when making an arrest but otherwise
must obtain a court order.
Your Legal Remedies If Harassed
If someone has threatened, intimidated,
or detained you because you were
taking photographs, they may be
liable for crimes such as kidnapping,
coercion, and theft. In such cases, you
should report them to the police.
You may also have civil remedies
against such persons and their
employers. The torts for which you
may be entitled to compensation
include assault, conversion, false
imprisonment, and violation of your
constitutional rights.
Other Remedies If Harassed
If you are disinclined to take legal
action, there are still things you can do
that contribute to protecting the right
to take photographs.
(1) Call the local newspaper and see if
they are interested in running a story.
Many newspapers feel that civil liberties
are worthy of serious coverage.
(2) Write to or call the supervisor of
the person involved, or the legal or
public relations department of the
entity, and complain about the event.
(3) Make the event publicly known on
an Internet forum that deals with photography
or civil rights issues.
How to Handle Confrontations
Most confrontations can be defused
by being courteous and respectful. If
the party becomes pushy, combative,
or unreasonably hostile, consider calling
the police. Above all, use good
judgment and don’t allow an event to
escalate into violence.
In the event you are threatened with
detention or asked to surrender your
film, asking the following questions
can help ensure that you will have the
evidence to enforce your legal rights:
1. What is the person’s name?
2. Who is their employer?
3. Are you free to leave? If not, how do
they intend to stop you if you decide
to leave? What legal basis do they
assert for the detention?
4. Likewise, if they demand your film,
what legal basis do they assert for the
confiscation?
Disclaimer
This is a general education guide
about the right to take photographs
and is necessarily limited in scope. For
example, it does not cover important
issues such as publication and copyright.
For more information about the
laws that affect photography, I refer
you to my book, Legal Handbook for
Photographers (Amherst Media, 2002).
This guide is not intended to be legal
advice nor does it create an attorney
client relationship. Readers should
seek the advice of a competent attorney
when they need legal advice
regarding a specific situation.
published by:
Bert P. Krages II
Attorney at Law
6665 S.W. Hampton Street, Suite 200
Portland, Oregon 97223
www.krages.com
© 2003 Bert P. Krages II
Your Rights and
Remedies When
Stopped or
Confronted
for Photography
February 2003
There is no inherent right to take photographs on RR property open to the public. It is dependent on RR rules. Photography is specifically allowed on New York subways. IIRC, it is prohibited on PATH. LIRR and Metro North may have differing rules regarding photography holding over from the time they were independent railroads.
Tom
It's only 9 months and counting down to the end of a sorry era, the N Sea Beach Line going through a stinking, ugly rathole called the Montague Tunnel. Fred, time to stock up on cheese for the little critters will you can, it's almost over.
I just picked up the new brochure advertising hearings on the MB changes and it says Winter 2004.
I know everyone has been saying February 2004 but I won't hold my breath. Remember we are dealing with the NYC DOT not the MTA when it comes to the MB. Anything can happen between now and the end of this year.
I know everyone has been saying February 2004
And what season is it meant to be in February if it's not winter?
Rich
Now we will have to see what the NYS Appelate Court has to say.
IMHO - don't expect the fare to be rolled back.
(apparently this only applies if you're a semi-often rider).
Or does that go into someone's pocket?
The MTA has a $3.4 billion dollar budget deficit
Especially if the judge is dumb enough not to allow the MTA to close token booths. Expect longer waits for trains and buses as those are it's largest expenses
On top of that add 10-15% to the costs of all capitol projects that the MTA hoped to issue bonds to raise money as the MTA's credit rating will be dropped so the cost of borroing will skyrocket
Lets shake things up a little and show the tyrants their place!
You and me are on the same wavelenght.
Would love to see the people crowed the bridges, streets and bike paths!
Get a little exercise people. and save 4 bucks. Quit your Gym and save even more!
First things first. It'll take at least 2 hours to get from any outer borough to Manhattan, regardless of walking, taking a car, etc (unless you live right across the river). Each way.
That adresses your point about "inconvenient".
Would everybody do it? No.
Would half of the people do it? No.
Would 1/4 of the people do it? No.
Would 1/8....
1/16....
1/32....No.
At most you'll find a few thousand people who don't understand (or don't feel) that the convenience of having 4 extra hours in their life each day is worth a $4 round trip fare.
But for the hell of it, let's say that your plan is possible. Everyone stops using MTA until the fares are reduced. Well, the MTA, which is already having budget problems, will have to shut down temporarily. Soon, even if it were possible for them to survive on $1.50 per ride, it won't be. They'll need the fare to be $2.50, or $3.50, just to recover. Of course, the city could allow private companies to start building subways, and in maybe 10, 15 years competition will bring the fare down to $2.
So, there's your best shot. Stop using the subway for 10 years, and we'll have some competition, probably enough to get the SAS built, and you'll only have to pay $2.
Go for it bud.
Mark
Only because the city did everything in its power to make it fail. Left to their own devices with a minor degree of regulation it would have survived a lot longer.
Sadly, this is where everyone will chip in to call me insane.
Mark
The fares, tolls, taxes etc. are going up, and services are going cut, to pay for health care, pensions, and debts. That's it. That's where the money is going. All of it. ALL OF IT!
And as long as people continue to think they only have to work 30 years, are entitled to as much health care as it takes to live forever, and can put some of the cost on someone else's credit card, it will go on and on.
New York is, as always, cutting edge. Our state and local debts are higher, our public employee retirement more lucrative, and our health care more expensive, than other places. And there is now one recipient of New York State public employee benefit checks in New York State for every two public employees. That ratio is going nowhere but up.
But don't bother leaving. Because the same trends will overtake the federal government by the year 2012, leading to such a national crisis that the difference between states will seem insiginificant. Social security will be running a deficit, and looking to cash in those treasury notes that have been loaded into the "lock box." So will Medicare. And the number of people in nursing homes paid for by Medicaid will be exploding (better hope they find a cure for Alzheimers fast). Plus, there will be all the federal debts loaded up over the past decade.
What profit-motivated business in their right mind would build and operate a subway?
Let's not forget: most of the subway infrastructure was built and paid for by the city. The private companies (IRT and BMT) mainly least the city-built lines.
There has been this tendancy in recent years for people to apply a business model to government services, and it is just a pipe dream. Take the controversy of school vouchers: many people think that if the public schools are given "competition" they will have to improve. But why? In business, the main goal is PROFIT; how would government-reimbursed private schools force public schools to PROFIT? This really doesn't even make sense.
People whine and moan about the cost of public services, and at the same time, want MORE and improved services, plus lower government spending and lower taxes. Where does the money come from to pay for all of this? Does it fall out of the sky?
Want to go back to the days of "deferred maintenance"? Forget new subway cars, renovated stations, grafitti-free trains; bring back derailments, track fires, and transit strikes every few years.
"Taxes" and "spending" are dirty words, yet people don't seem to mind paying for more bond issues. Yeah...let people who want government services buy bonds. Oh...we forgot one thing: we have to pay the bondholders back some day, with INTEREST on top of the principal, which you don't do when you spend "government" funds directly.
Unregulated subways. I can just see it: Private companies digging up your streets (NIMBY, anyone?) and building their own free-market subways. What kind of fares do you think they would have to charge to make a profit?
Does the IRT ring a bell? It was a private company, thinking about profit. I have no doubt that another company would do it today, if
a) it, AND it's competitors were unsubsidized. On a level playing field, a subway can make tons of profit (and in doing so, serve its customers very well).
There has been this tendancy in recent years for people to apply a business model to government services, and it is just a pipe dream. Take the controversy of school vouchers: many people think that if the public schools are given "competition" they will have to improve. But why? In business, the main goal is PROFIT; how would government-reimbursed private schools force public schools to PROFIT? This really doesn't even make sense.
Very simple. Companies that want to make a profit like to have customers. Customers like to get good products. Run a crappy school, and nobody will send their kids to it. Unless of course you're a public school, and you don't have a choice. But we're talking about REAL competition, not a government-held monopoly.
People whine and moan about the cost of public services, and at the same time, want MORE and improved services, plus lower government spending and lower taxes. Where does the money come from to pay for all of this? Does it fall out of the sky?
I'm not sure where this came from. I want less government services, and lower taxes. Works out pretty logically.
Want to go back to the days of "deferred maintenance"? Forget new subway cars, renovated stations, grafitti-free trains; bring back derailments, track fires, and transit strikes every few years.
"Taxes" and "spending" are dirty words, yet people don't seem to mind paying for more bond issues. Yeah...let people who want government services buy bonds. Oh...we forgot one thing: we have to pay the bondholders back some day, with INTEREST on top of the principal, which you don't do when you spend "government" funds directly.
This actually has nothing to do with what I suggested, but we do pay interest when the government pays for us. Every year when we run a budget deficit, we keep getting charged interest on that increased debt.
Unregulated subways. I can just see it: Private companies digging up your streets (NIMBY, anyone?) and building their own free-market subways. What kind of fares do you think they would have to charge to make a profit?
I think a buck per ride would be reasonable. If you look at all the money that the NYC Subways throw away on useless pork, stuff that private companies would never touch, you'd be surprised. To name a few: unions, token booths, construction projects that take 3 times longer than they should and cost 3 times as much as they should.
Any other concerns?
I Live in Cobble Hill, not exactly Brooklyn Heights and I work in Chelsea, it takes me exactly 50 minutes to walk door to door.
That's walking,
I have not yet rode my bike.
Roller Blades?
Lots of people spend time and money at the gym, when they could be saving money and punishing the crooks at the TA at the same time.
The reason the TA feels they can get away with their fancy bookkeeping is precisly because they assume that noone is willing to rock the boat a little and shake things up.
sometimes you got to change just for the sake of change.
I love walking in New York.
It's in many of these far areas where generally the "people who can't afford the fare hike" live. As little as they can afford a fare hike, I doubt they can afford to be late to work because it took them 2 hours to get there.
Pro's
1-Eventually after a few days( If people in the masses do strike) the fare will have to go back to $1.50
2-Everyone will get much needed exercise
3-The MTA will realize who keeps the trains running and were not going to take their crap
Con's
1-The fact that people won't be willing to walk from Montauk to Manhatthan, or drive from Montauk to Brooklyn then walk over a bridge
Other than the 1 con I support this idea.
- The city needs the TA, not vice versa. It's not a corporation. Since the MTA needs more money to run than it takes in from fare paying customers, a total shutdown would actually save them money.
- The fare increase is not being used to line the pockets of some small group of super-rich executives. The MTA is not a corporation, doesn't have stockholders and doesn't issue stock. The MTA executives earn their salary reguardless of what the fare is.
Pay the damned fare already. Aim your anger at those who deserve it, namely the state legislature who has successfully conned most New Yorkers into believing they must raise taxes to prevent the sky from falling, and a governor who weilds his impotent veto pen while quietly smiling at those who overode it.
- The city needs the TA, not vice versa. It's not a corporation. Since the MTA needs more money to run than it takes in from fare paying customers, a total shutdown would actually save them money
The city does not need the TA. Its the TA that needs this city. If there was a actual defecit then I would pay quietly. But since theres a half billion dollar surplus why should I dish out the extra money?
Plus the legislator is ready to raise the sales tax, and rents and city tax has already skyrocketed, so why should YOU give your money to a group of people who has absolutely no money problems?
And I dont appreciate being called a ignoramous!
Its too hard to explain
The MTA receives guaranteed revenues from the state that are earmarked to it by the state legislature each year. In addition, there are various taxes that the MTA collects on directly (where do you think the extra .25% in the sales tax goes?). If the MTA spends less money than its total income including taxes, then that is not a surplus.
If you made $100 a week and someone gave you an extra $50 in charity so you could afford to eat and pay rent, and you spent $125 on various necessities, leaving $25, does that mean that you earned $25?
Excellent analogy.
This woman was the main reason Grand Central was saved from the wreckers ball.
Peace,
ANDEE
The big post office (It's like 'Harley' or something, I dunno. All I know is that it's along 8th Avenue) will be the new station.
This is not just a NYC thing. Buildings that were once important or handsome have vanished for a "modern" one, that also, years later, meets the same fate.
AMTRAK is converting the Farley Post Office (designed by the same architech as old Penn Station. They are tired of having their pasengers get off the their trains in the basement of a sports palace.
Take a good ride on your favorite train today.
Mark
Chuck Greene
I guess you have a bona fide reason to light firecrackers tonight even if you are American...your neighbours might be scratching their heads, though.
-Robert King
I wonder if anyone ever actually called a drug store and asked "Do you have Prince Albert in a can? Well then, let him out!"
Of course, I doubt if anyone under age 35 has the slightest idea what this means. And now, of course, the name Prince Albert refers to something quite obscene and disgusting. Sic transit gloria mundi ... see, I added "transit" content :)
-Robert King
Not only do I know what it means, I used to SMOKE that stuff, at least until I quit smoking back in 1976.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have no idea what the current meaning is, and I presume I really don't want to...
It is a piercing on a guy in a place that would make it difficult for him to use an urinal.
I routinely buy beer for the teens that work at the car wash I work at. Of course it costs them a 6 or 12 pack for myself :-)
If child prices or at least a lower "teen" price applied up to 17, it would at least be fair.
Here's a digest of what was happening in the world in and around the day you were born in 1986:
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/051986/860519007.html
Very sad that so little has changed.
Oh, one thing's changed all right ... America is even more dependent on Midest oil.
The latter. The Chevy Suburban has been around for a long time.
The difference is that back in 1986, people bought high clearance, high weight, 4 WD vehicles if they needed one for work or wanted one for recreation (i.e., getting places on very rough roads). They didn't buy them for the look.
Chuck Greene
BTW, tomorrows my 16th.
--Mark
wayne
My big beef with the hearing was that among the SEPTA representatives not a single member was from the Board of Directors, one of the presenters really latched onto that. To me it mostly seemed to be Community Activists and council members fighting for their transit, which makes sense, more power to them. I was pretty much surrounded by C bus advocates with their little signs and such, they were kind of funny cause they'd raise them for EVERYTHING, even when somebody from Northwest Philly was talking about the R8 they'd applaud and raise their little 'C bus' signs. I guess it was just good that they supported people from outside their immediate scope.
Of all the speakers, it was the last one I saw, a Mr. Brian Anderson, who most impressed me. I'm guessing he was just a Septa customer who decided to come in and give them his two cents. His speech was clear, well researched, and he basically attacked SEPTA from all sides. I have no idea where he is from, he mentioned that he commutes from a zone three station, which could be pretty much anywhere, and he barely gave an indication as to his home area, he questioned the canceling of the C, the closing of R5 stations, the end of the R1, and a whole host of other things that SEPTA's trying to pull on us. He was better prepared than most of the council members and community activists, having the Septa budget for FY2004-2005 printed out and on hand for his reference, and he cited a 28 million and 26 million (IIRC) growth in suburban and city division employee spending, unrelated to their latest pay increases the union negotiated, since the 55 million budget shortfall could easily come out of there. He was cut off at 5 minutes by the lead SEPTA flunkie, even though he was interrupted numerous times by a young lady toward the front who agreed just a bit too much with him. I really hope he got his point across to the SEPTA people.
Anyone else out there go to any other meetings or planning on going to the 5 pm? I really wish I had scheduled today better, I could have easily missed the Council Member and Community Activist speeches, if there were one or two more Brian Andersons after him, I would have been glad to stay, but alas the DrexHell beckoned.
Chuck Greene
Right now I'm just really mad at them becuase they insist upon closing a key section of Market St's sidewalk while they do the preparation for yet another building. Near as I can tell the construction workers placed the fencing across the sidewalk to provide a safe parking spot for their cars. Yet for anyone wanting to get to CAT or LeBow building it's either cross the street, detour well out of the way, or walk down the right lane of market st. It's not safe at all, but it seems to be common practice in Philly.
Wow, 1965, what buildings were there then? Disque? Kelly? Matheson? Must have been nice to have a slightly more open campus, and GG1s on the High Line!
I gotta ask, was Disque under construction while you were there? I've heard that for a brief time during it's construction the Pennsy 32nd st tunnel into 30th St Station Upper Level was partially exposed. Apparantly there are pictures of this somewhere on campus, but I have yet to see them.
Chuck Greene
Cutbacks Would Cripple City, SEPTA Told
Mark
Although MTA officials have argued that changing the price for subways and buses across New York City is a logistical nightmare that would take weeks to complete and would cost millions of dollars, a former MTA official admitted in recent days that changing the fare would take about half a minute. "It's very straightforward given it's all computerized," said the former official on the condition of anonymity. "You just access the MTA network and as long as you have the proper username and password, you input the new fare. It automatically updates the fare in every single subway station and on every bus instantly." The official explained that each subway station and bus is connected with MTA headquarters electronically. "It's a little something called technology," the official said with a smile. Not surprisingly, critics went on the offensive and accused the MTA of stall tactics. "The MTA is deceiving the people of New York once again," said Gene Russianoff of the Straphangers Campaign. "It's just another lie perpetrated by the corrupt MTA administration," he added. A number of MTA critics also suggested that the $2 million that the MTA said it would need to change the fare may be another example of fraudulent accounting. "It'll take them 30 seconds to change the fare and then they'll probably just funnel the $2 million into a secret account," said Robert Quinones of the Straphangers Campaign. NewYorkish.com
Scary, isn't it?
Peace,
ANDEE
John
--Mark
Photo of the week (May 17 - May 23) is updated--Amtrak #713
Recent new/updated sections:
1)NA Transit MEGA UPDATE Phase 1. Transit Sound Section added 100 sounds and Transit Video Club added 81 videos of many transit buses and trains
2)Greater Toronto section updated. Added 24 assorted pictures of Toronto Transit Commission, and updated bus and subway rosters.
3)Updated in New York Transit Center. Photo of the month is updated, several new sections and update are shown in Bus Terminal
and more.....................
Natransit
Subway grrl
hot damn.
1) How much did the TVM's cost NJT?
2) How much did it take (related to #1) to replace the older TVM's with the new, colored ones?
Oren,
It does not surprise me that you have made this observation. I think the answer to this quandary is pretty simple. "Rolling stock shortage".
This is something I have been bicthing about for more the 15 years. If you check this search of "WMATA rolling stock" at groups.google.com you can read some of the discussions on this subject.
WMATA has had a rolling stock shortage from the day yellow line service started between Gallery Place F01 and National Airport C10 back on April 30 1983. Extension of the yellow line service on the C route to Huntington C15 started on December 17 of that same year. At this time the Bredas were just coming on line. Opening the station south of National Airport C10 using Yellow line service was a stop gap cure to get these stations open with the available rolling stock that WMATA had at the time. Most here don’t know that Eisenhower Avenue C14 and Huntington C15 stations were shown on maps prior to there openings as Blue line stations.
After the November 22 1980 8 car trains disappeared from the system. That right at one time in the past WMATA ran 8 car trains on at least 50% of the peek scheduled trains on daily bases.
These random consists will be a fact of life until the WMATA gets the CAF cars fully operational. 950 cars are needed to run all trains with 6 cars consists with 68% utilization with all of the CAF cars fully operational. We will not start seeing the return of 8 car trains until the first batch of Alstrom cars come on line in 2005 and there will only be 8 8 car trains in the schedule. We will not see 8 car trains in significant numbers until 2013.
For more details about rolling stock procurement download Integration of Infrastructure Renewal, Core Capacity, Regional Bus and System Expansion Plans.
PS this document will hold some of the answers to the next WMATA metrorail quiz I am putting together.
John
Look at the big picture here, WMATA has fluctuating number of cars that are available for revenue service on any given day. The CAF cars are still likely not fully deployed and are not likely up to the optimum level of mileage between failures. There is a number of car that are out of service for routine maintenance along with the Bredas that are being rotated off the property for overhaul. You likely also have a fluctuating number of cars that are pulled from revenue service because of unpredicted failures. What is likely happening is the number of cars available for revenue service came up short on the day in question so WMATA deployed what they had. The next day the numbers were different and more cars were available.
John
Have the first Bredas sent off for rehab back yet?
John
I pulled this from one of the press releases at www.wmata.com/about/MET_NEWS/dailyrelease.cfm dated December 24, 2002. Full text of the release can be had at wmata.com/about/MET_NEWS/200212/pr_year_in_review.cfm.
This year, Metro will reintroduce into service its first rehabilitated series 2000/3000 BREDA rail cars. The cars will look very similar to the series 5000 cars. In 2001, Metro awarded a contract to Alstom Transportation Inc., to rehabilitate 364 rail cars. With many of these rail cars in service for nearly 20 years, Metro initiated rehabilitation to modernize these cars.
I concur, I would hazard a guess that some of these cars have been delivered to Alstom but I have no idea what the numbers would be. As I recall when the Rohr car were shipped out for AC traction propulsion upgrades no more the 6 car were off the property at any given time.
John
John
You know if MARTA has any plans of getting next train indicators like the ones WMATA has?
I remember the Lindbergh one the best. There was only one sign for the whole station and both tracks. It would read something like:
AIRPORT........1 min
DORAVILLE......2 min
AIRPORT........5 min
NORTH SPRINGS..6 min
There wern't any dots on the real signs. The top train would disapear when you could see the train from the platform in the tunnel or coming around the corner.
then
RED LINE
SHADY GROVE
6 CAR TRAIN
APPROACHING
then
7:29 am
then
RED LINE
GROSVENOR
6 CAR TRAIN
4 MINUTES
then
RED LINE
SHADY GROVE
6 CAR TRAIN
APPROACHING
then
RED LINE
GROSVENOR
6 CAR TRAIN
4 MINUTES
then
RED LINE
SHADY GROVE
6 CAR TRAIN
ARRIVING
then
7:30 am
then
RED LINE
GROSVENOR
6 CAR TRAIN
3 MINUTES
then
RED LINE
SHADY GROVE
The funny thing is it will say Red Line to Grosvenor in 3 as the Shady Grove train is just about to stop.
As far as our consists: 6 cars to the MFL every day, regardless of time. There are rare occasions where trains will be 4 cars, but that's really hard to predict... only seen it on summer holidays, or light Sundays in summer. NEVER seen it on Independence Day, or any winter holidays. BSL is 5 cars for everything, except for the Spur, which is always 2 cars.
As far as WMATA goes, it's probably a mix of Bredas in rehab and CAFs not ready. They don't have enough available cars to do constant six-car trains. I've seen 2-car consists on weekend Green and Yellow line trains before. However, the 2-car Green trains are becoming longer, ever since Branch Avenue opened. I've never seen less than 4 cars on the other three lines. I also DID see an 8-car train on the Blue Line once... July 4th, 1998. And all the Vienna-bound passengers booed the train.
Mark
p.s.--I wasn't caught in the 100 car pile-up on I-68 even though it was only 7 miles from my home, even John got caught up in all the detours Saturday morning.---it did, however, take me two and a half hours to get home Friday evening---heck, on a normal day, I can be home in 20 minutes and I could be at Shady Grove in 2 hours and downtown Baltimore in two and a half----WOW!!
I remember taking the Green Line from Fort Totten to College Park a few times with the two car trains, and everybody would pile on the first car, leaving the second car completely empty. I used to run for that and get a car while the morons in the front car were packed in. Unfortunately, a lot of them were the braniacs from UMD and the tourists that don't know how to spread out on a platform.
A 4 car train at Archives will have the third car at the escalator.
Remember that version of the Green Map I showed you? Well the extension of the F Route Green line was shown as future to Brandywine roughly following the Pepco right of way south of the Capitol Beltway MD I-95/495
There are presently two proposals being floated for fixed guide way transit south of WMATAs Branch Avenue (F11) station. None involve extension of the existing F Route Green line. The proposals are lite rail and bus rapid transit along the MD-5 Branch Avenue freeway.
John
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=480305
bryan - whereever you are - good luck to you - you'll need it.
So long, farewell,
Auf Wiedersehen, good-bye?
Latest construction update: concrete for the extra boarding area at Broadway has been poured, although the new third track has not yet been put down. What's puzzling is the fact that it's the same length as the existing boarding area (for three-car trains) while all stations on the new Southeast Corridor will be long enough to accommodate four-car trains.
The steel bents for the light rail bridge over Broadway are in place. You can see why they went with steel bents instead of reinforced concrete girders used on other bridges: the bridge snakes around the office building of the Gates Rubber Company. Girders for the Belleview Ave. bridge are in place as well.
Still, the pleasantly cool ride on 9311 was quite surprising for me.
R-32
But still, it was one of the most enjoyable rides I ever had on a R33WF.
(posts like these get people to spend their birthday in other people's killfiles)... lol!
Wanna guess who's #1?
Not that it matters.
Thanks in advance.
-Robert King
-Robert King
Arti
There is a trade-off between film speed and grain (the size of the lumps of silver that react to the light). You get finer detail and better color saturation with slower film.
I grew up with Kodachrome X (the predecessor to K64). I liked it because Ektachrome was too blue. Also, I was told that Ektachrome stood up to repeated projection, but Kodachrome was better for archiving.
John
John
I presume you mean ASA 64... don't think 400 or 200 was around then. I shot Ektachrome when I lived in Spain but went back to Kodachrome (ASA 25) for the archival permanence. Used the last of my stash last summer so now I'm using K-64. Have some nice crisp slides from the early '60s that were shot on the old ASA 16 Kodachrome... still look great... and have some that my great-uncle took in the late '30s... think that was ASA 8.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
John
They currently offer Ektachrome in ASA 1600... not that I'm likely to ever try it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Polarizers genrally screw into a lense camera barrel. Then there is a ring you rotate. Rotating the ring while looking through the view finder, you'll notice the sky getting darker or glare disappearing from window.
I don't know how many of you know this, but there are two types of polarizer filters. There is the standard polarizer and there is a circular polarizer. The circular polizer gives an even darkening all around while the standard usually darkens the sky. I have both. I checked the B & H Photo catalogue and a 55mm (for Minolta) standard polarizer goes for $16.95 while the circular polarizer goes for $29.95.
Bill "Newkirk"
Fortunately the way the G3 is set up you can rotate the filter before putting it on and note the orietation. The tube only goes on the camera one way. Its a little easier to work with than looking through the small view of the viewfinder.
Plus most (affordable) digital cameras don't have traditional viewfinders so you can't see the effect of the polarizer through it.
Bill "Newkirk"
As to Adorama, the personnel are far friendlier, they open on Sundays at 9:30am (B&H opens at 10); the ability to park right in front of the store on Sundays at no charge so you don't have to lug your purchases to a parking lot (and riskhaving your auto damaged) across a main thoroughfare; the willingness of store personnel to assist you in carrying purchases to your vehicle; and it's only necessary to select what you want and the same salesperson will ring up your purchase and pack it for you.
As to prices, both B&H and Adorama are similar and in many cases equal for most items, but for far superior service Adorama comes out far, far ahead.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
BTW, 6 months or so until I am not a teenager! Sorry, I'm still at teenager! :-)
Bill "Newkirk"
From Amtrak.Com:
New England Service Disruption, May 19, 2003
Due to the minor derailment of an MBTA commuter train this afternoon (May 19) at Canton Junction, MA, Amtrak service between New Haven, CT and Boston, MA, is temporarily suspended. Passengers planning to travel between these cities are encouraged to call
1 800-USA-RAIL for the latest train status information. We apologize for any inconvenience you may experience.
Wish I had my camera :-(
These vandals need to be taught a good hard lesson about taking care of common property
The purpose of the CCTV camera in the first place
It has been proven over an over in various studies in numerous cities including NYC that CCTV camera's deter vandalism. the large majority of the Vandals are not super hard core and think what they are doing is funny and they won't get caught. Add the spector that someone is paying attention, the amount of vandalism goes down.
The fact that they get away with an act of vandalim reinforces phycologically that vandalism is a crime for which thier is no penalty
Take a walk around the city. places where cctc camaras focus on building parimeters, thier are no grafetti. One of my budies when I was a teenager was number 3 on the cities top 10 grafetti artists. He stayed clear of areas where he knew people where watching. Prior to the Many-B paint job he had a tag on every pole on the lower roadway. Something he was proud of.
Peace,
ANDEE
I was just watching Futurama on Cartoon Network, they go down to 'Old New York,' where they go down to the Subway. Bender the Robot straddles the subway tracks, gets electrocuted, and shudderes, "Ohh man that feels good." The other two people, Frye and Leela hop on his back and he makes the announcement, "This is a Brooklyn-bound B Train making all Stops to whereever I feel like! Bing! Bong!" They head for Brooklyn and even arrive at Newkirk Ave!
Yes, Futurama predicted the 2004 B-D shuffle, several years before it happened! Amazing! The show actually became accurate with the passage of time!
#3 West End Jeff
Shoulda taken the 7 Redbirds sucker!
Oh, and thanks.
#3 West End Jeff
#3 West End Jeff
And around here in upstate Noo Yawk, where there's PLENTY of abandoned track, nothing like a HYRAIL to get you where you're going, pretty much anywhere you want. This is a Syracuse bound GMC Train making stops anywhere we feel like and to hell with CSXT, the ball's against 'em now. :)
Once you get out of MetroNorth land, tracks are maintained by private companies if they're maintained at all. About the ONLY thing we get upstate from OUR gooberment is a BILL.
And that differs from your average weekend subway service exactly how???
See, my subway station is so popular, it was on national TV (when it was on FOX) and now on cable (Cartoon Net.). Did the artists who worked on the animated show drew a good rendering of the station house also?
Ahhh! Nice to see cartoonists recognize such a wonder subway line and station. I promise I will NEVER desert my Brighton line, unlike some nut out in California who thinks his Sea Beach is the best thing in the world. This week so far, we were discussing the Avenue H stationhouse, now a TV show. What next? Speed 3 (The Slant R40 is now the bus in Speed 1 and cannot go below 40 MPH.)
What were those proposals?
So then 5 minutes later we depart and we stop and go through 5 Av & GC then we go through the Steinway tubes ride over the gaps going about 30mph until we reach Vernon Blvd. We load depart then we go through the other stations and the nice curves before we reach Queensboro Plaza going over a few 3rd rail gaps in the process. Then we head onto the Flushing express and the Bird is still going strong at 40 years old giving the speed on the express and then we arrive at 61 St; afterwards we leave go down the dip and the speed & rocking of the train goes on, man I'm going to miss them :-(. We thunder down the middle track and were rocking left to right and you really had to hold on, then we arrive at Junction Blvd, leave then bypass the next 2 local stations but get caught by red signals on the "roller coaster" section. We switch BEFORE arriving at Willets Point, a rarity and its lights out for 5 seconds. Then we go towards Main and we double switch to the MB track and its lights out again :-D until we arrive at Main.
Top speeds:
QB Plaza-61 St-35mph
61-Junction Blvd-43mph
Junction-Willets Point-36mph
So I go outside and I run to catch the Q44 loading passengers at Main St on Roosevelt Av then we depart and then the LTD ride starts once again. We go smoothly via Main until around 73 Av when some group was marching down Main St, having the nerve to take up ALL the lanes and these two guys start telling them to get out the street and I was getting pissed of since we lost about 8-10 minutes of travel time. Then we continue going down via Main and then these same guys try to be comedians by talking some bullshit to the driver and I wanted to puch these guys in the damn face since they were so annoying >:-0. Anyway I get off at the Briarwood to catch the E or F, whichever comes first so a R32 E arrives and I see a G on the express track heading towards 71 Av. SO then I get the RF window and the T/O is pretty aggressive and we go through the local stops until we switch to the express tracks after 75 Av. Then we're off on the QB express and we do good on the express stopping at Roosevelt in between then arrive at Queens Plaza staying at a average of 30mph then after leaving 23-Ely, were off into the 53 St tube going in the 40's. Then I get off at 7 Av to catch the B or D rather than walk through Times Square to catch the Q.
Top speeds:
Briarwood-Union Tpke-35mph
71 Av-Roosevelt-36mph
Roosevelt-Queens Plaza-39mph
53 St tube-43mph
Then the D comes as soon as the E left 7 Av and I hop on it and we go smoothly until we get held at 42 St so the B could switch over to head north then we switch at 34 to wait for the Q. So a W comes and I let that go then my Q comes about 2 minutes later and we go smoothly on the entire trip soaking up the views of the Manny-B in the process until I reach Newkirk then I go home.
R40 4219 Q EXP
R36WF 9607 <7>
Orion 259 Q44
R32 3779 (E)
R68 2512 (D)
R68 2811 (Q)
The dip after passing 74th st/Broadway station is great, when you reach 90th/Elmhurst, that baby is flying. Imagine a retrofitted slant R40 on that stretch.
I suppose that's plausible. Neither was 145th Street.
The R16's used on the J in 1985/86 had "111th St" on their rollsigns and used them for the most part.
By the way, what were the 36th Street signs really for? What used to actually use it as a southern terminal? I assume it was used for shuttles on the West End, but wouldn't that have been on the top rollsign, not the middle one?
The M has been brown since 1979, but the R16's never got the new signs and the R27/30's didn't get them until 1984/5.
What is it about the green ones? :-)
Peace,
ANDEE
And they are often signed correctly.
No, this detail never makes it into the posted service advisories.
Of course we do not want to make it too easy on the geese, so 9th Avenue (in Manhattan) *is* on the west end (ok west side) of said Manhattan.
Or maybe it is because they gotta write *something* there.
Elias
Try this BMT One if you have too much free time.
If you have much too much free time, maybe you'll design your own.
Let me know if you like, it makes you crazy, both or neither. :)
Hey Movie guys!!
Do you happen to have a video clip of the ( 7 ) Redbird Interiors
as the lights flicker on and off between TSQ and GCT??
IMHO I think this is a scene which will NEVER BE REPEATED again
once the armadillos take over pronto... ever thought to film the interior
of a 7 redbird as the lights flicker leaving TSQ??
;)
Theeeeeeere's a nifty nostalgic idea/suggestion, brahs!!
Once a day?!? I don't wanna become a be*otch.
Hehehehe... "Once a week" sounds more appropos.
If you want to film the "lights out" from TSQ to GCT, make sure you get on a Redbird departing from Track 1. That train would have to crossover onto Track 2, resulting in the lights going out.
PLEASE DON'T GET (handed a ticket) WHILST DOING SO!!
I have a quick question and was hoping someone can help: Does anybody know how deep this UK station is? Somebody asked me and I didn't know the answer. How does this compare with our deep deep stations (Lex/63, Roosevelt, etc).
Also, R32 3558-3421 was a Coney Island R32...I have to search for pictures of it when it was still on the N...
Last weekend there were at least one R40 Slant on the Q..the first and last car had the yellow circle, all interior signs had the diamond...I'll have to upload my digital pictures soon...
With respect to taking pictures...pretend that you're a tourist and you didn't know better...that's what I would do...luckily, I wasn't stopped yet...
Thanks
Jonathan
I presume you mean Notting Hill Gate.
Does anybody know how deep this UK station is?
The Circle/District Line Station is in an open cut. It is 27ft deep.
The Central Line Station is in two deep tubes, with the Westbound track above the Eastbound track. The Westbound track is about 80ft deep and the Eastbound track about 100ft deep.
How does this compare with our deep deep stations (Lex/63, Roosevelt, etc).
Lex/63 is 80ft (upper level) and 100ft (lower level) deep.
Roosevelt Island is 100ft deep.
Both London and NYC have deeper stations than these:
Hampstead (Northern Line - Edgware Branch) - 192ft deep
Bull & Bush (never opened, just under a mile North of Hampstead) - over 200ft deep - near deepest point on LU (250ft)
190th St (8th Av Line) - 140ft deep
191st St (7th Av Line) - 160ft deep
It's enough to make you very tempted to ride a bus or work out a route via the Circle Line...
I really don't like the deep tube stations or trains anyway... I had a wonderful day on Tuesday riding some trains - most of them BR or Subsurface:
0810 Birmingham Snow Hill - London Marylebone 1024
Bakerloo Line - Marylebone - Waterloo
1115 London Waterloo - Epsom (the home town of someone rather special) 1140
Then hung around Epsom for a while...
(418 bus to Kingston-upon-Thames for a bit of shopping...)
(371 bus to Richmond - yes, I know we should have caught the train)
District Line - Richmond - Embankment (to go to the National Gallery)
Random Local Train - London Charing X - London Bridge
To have a look at King's Guy's Campus and have dinner at McDonald's!
(40 bus to Aldgate Station - in a dunno what to do, so we'll ride the first bus that turns up on Borough High St moment)
Circle Line - Aldgate - Victoria
Then sat around drinking in the Reef Bar...
Victoria Line - Victoria - Oxford Circus
Bakerloo Line - Oxford Circus - Marylebone
2210 London Marylebone - Birmingham Snow Hill 0034
See a sampling of today's photos by going here:
http://www.railfanwindow.com/temp/2003.05.19/207th.html
I hope you all enjoy this.
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
Do you mean Borough of Manhattan but not island of Manhattan?
That looks like the east/north bank of the Harlem River.
Ding ding ding ding! You are correct, sir!
Chapter 11 Choo Choo (Lyrics)
www.railfanwindow.com
I like this one also.
Well, this is the other side of the Hudson, but oh how the mighty has fallen. This was such an attractive paint scheme.
it gives a legal discription of your rights from another lawyer than mikey :-)
Mark
"You ran into a multi-million dollar WHAT?"
Heheheheee..........
Elias
I think a lot depends on the specific circumstances surrounding the accidents, none of which has been made public.
One can assume that the LRT Operator is supposed to look both ways before entering a street-level intersection, even if the traffic light is in their favor.
Jimmy.
R-32
John
John
BTW, I'm still really curious as to why the stretch between 125-145 is so slow. It seems to be the slowest by far.
One thing I noticed while riding between 125-145, is that the trains tend to rock back and forth a lot, like the ground it unsteady. Strangest thing. What's the point of all these interlockings anyways? Is it soley because the D train must go deeper? I don't see how that could be, since the local C train doesn't really slow down, yet the B train must go under.
Things must be done to speed up this train, it's a shame that it's so slow, and it has so much potential.
July 3, 1997: At 10:20 pm a Queens-bound A train derails under St. Nicholas Avenue in Harlem, just north of the 135th Street Station as it is going over a switch. Mayor Giuliani reports: "It's an absolute miracle no one was killed or seriously injured. What I saw was unbelievable. The last car as smashed in half, just ripped apart." 15 people were injured and service on the A and D was terminated at 59th Street and C service suspended entirely. The Transit Authority was forced to run shuttle trains on the D from 205th to 161st Street in the Bronx, and on the A from 207th Street to 168th Street, in conjunction with shuttle bus service.
Peace,
ANDEE
Any details?
The latest complaint happened last week while I was working as reserve at 59St-CC on the NB 1/9 trains.I was helping out a fellow Traffic Checker when I noticed what was going on and confronted the woman who was demanding where are supervisor was then went on ranting how all we do is stand around and do nothing when I told the supervisor wasn't around.I finally asked her what the problem was and she told me that there was some crazy guy on the train she was on and she was the only one to get out and tell one of the Checker's to go tell the Conductor and they just went and sat down.
Now what was I supposed to say?We have a our own job to do,the woman herself should've gone and told the T/O about it.Why come to us when you can tell the person driving the train or opening/closing the door's yourself.It's not that hard afterall.We're not supposed to be disturbed while we do our work,ESPECIALLY when the train or bus is already there.That's the worse time to do it since we're in the middle of writing down the info that's required of us to do.
That's too pessimistic. There have been countless improvements since the low point in the mid-1970s.
--Mark
Peaxe,
ANDEE
Express trains passing 135th st are very slow also, some timers on straight A trains should be burned too.
What about gay A trains. So shoot me, I couldn't resist.
Peace,
ANDEE
And with "beach season" coming up, Friday is an IMPORTANT celebration for all subtalkers to take part in. Details here:
CELEBRATE FRIDAY MAY 23!
(after all, if some of us read the POST, then its sister paper is spongeworthy too)
The timers south of 86 St make no sense to me since it is straight track however south of 72 St the timer makes sense since the CC disaster in 1978 and there is a small squiggly curve that trains may not be able to go fast.
Peace,
ANDEE
And I'm sure with the geniuses terminating trains at 145th instead of 168, must be even WORSE today than it was back in the days of stone wheels and foot propulsion. :)
--Mark
The reasons the trains move so slow in this area is that there indeed are numerous interlockings here, with the Concourse line merging with the 8th Avenue line. So tranversing the interlockings in and of itself is one factor slowing down trains, but due to the amount of interlockings and the volume of trains using this section of the system, many timers are in the area to ensure train speed is slow enought to maximize the safety of passengers, crews and trains. As there are so many merges, the TA has set a very conservative speed limit and has taken numerous steps to see that it is adhered to.
I'm sure the derailment someone mentioned in one response was a contributing factor in setting the speed at a low level; but others have pointed out that this area apparently has been relatively slow for quite some time.
I've also found it interesting that the strech between 125 south to about 81 Street (express) is quite speedy (I don't recall seeing any timers) but at 81, the trains hit the brakes. I guess the anwser has something to do with wanting to ensure that trains don't come into 59 Street too fast, but if that is the reason for the timers appearing at 81 Street, couldn't the same thing have been accomplished with timers around 72 Street?
You would think they would have included a s/b local-to-express crossover switch north of 59th.
Actually, we also ran neck-and-neck with a n/b D train out of 59th on one of those two Sundays. Then after we stepped off our train at 81st, an A train thundered past as made our way to the museum entrance. All I could think was, where did that train come from?
CPW once hosted an active railway ... from what I'm hearing, it's gotten as slow and infrequent as the BMT. When I used to venture out to Brooklyn as a kid to joyride, that was the one thing I immediately noticed. LONG waits if you just missed a train. When we went back to the city for Kissmoose of 2001, I noticed it was the same on the 6th Avenue line as well. That was spooky. While the IND wasn't exactly the IRT conga line 24/7, it didn't appear to be ABANDONED either.
Finally on November 24, 1967, I experienced a CPW express jaunt for the first time - on a howling, wailing D train. And to think my mother beat me to it - she rode on a D to the Bronx a month before and told me it flat out flew. I was jealous, to say the least.
By the time I became a Saturday commuter that fall, four cars was the minimum train length I ever saw on the AA. Towards Christmas, 8-car AA trains were the norm along with 10-car A and E trains. Otherwise AA trains were four cars, E trains six and A trains, 8.
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/smmanxbx.gif
But yes, you've got to keep it down. The ONE good thing is once the D diverges and you clear it, you can pick up speed into 145 faster than the A can ... even earlier for the center express track to the Bronx ... that's a LEFT diverge.
I can't recall a time that I *ever* saw anything parked there on either side.
Now as to SEEING things, ya gots me there - from space aliens to Osama ... but never saw a TRAIN there. :)
A sidenote, why do some signals have lights below the signal number? (The above A3 674 is one. There is also one on the s/b local track at 75 Avenue.) Why is this?
Adam
(ENYNova5205@aol.com)
Why are MARC's HHP-8s here again? I thought they were going to enter service and such, now what's wrong with them?
I saw the HHP-8 you speak of last Sunday en-route to Haverford for their graduation.
Or when all 3 escalators at Smith-9th/IND are OOS, you can take your crack and conquer the highest elevated NYC subway station.
wayne
Some other no-escalator exits:
60 steps plus an up-ramp at York St.
75 steps from the L at 6th Ave.
--the Fluahing IRT platform to the mezzanine at Grand Central, esp when the escalator isn't working. And it frequently ain't.
Who thunk up these stations? Jack La Lanne?
www.forgotten-ny.com
2/3 to 4/5 is. 2/3 to NB J/M/Z isn't much better.
Nobody's mentioned Borough Hall yet? M/N/R to NB 4/5. Ouch. At least you can stop at the bank on the way. (Too bad the bank has no floor.)
How about F to 4/5 using the out-of-system transfer? Assume that all escalators are broken and that you're not willing to wait for the elevator.
Or the walkway to Broadway at 191st? There's no climbing but it's a long walk.
Has anyone here had to use the stairs at Clark? My last time there, the doors to the staircase were open at both ends.
Just long. Hardly any stairs worth mentioning. 2 flights down and 1 flight up.
Adam
(ENYNova5205@aol.com)
Was at Gun Hill/WPR last weekend. That escalator is out of service as well, with the metal grids all torn out. "For years", according to a fellow passenger.
The escalator at East Tremont/Boston Road never seems to be working either. That station is exceptionally high for some reason. Could it be a high water table due to the proximity of the Bronx River? There doesn't appear to be a noticeable dip in the local topography, either by sight or on topographical maps.
All of the elevated stops along the 1 from 225th to Van Cortlandt are extremely high. If they can put an escalator at the Pelham Bay and Woodlawn terminals, why not Van Cortlandt?
When there are no escalators going up at the Jackson Heights transfer complex (which is very often), it can take ten minutes to get upstairs to the 7- longer in rush hours.
---Chapter 11
Peace,
ANDEE
It's a little misleading. There's no mezzanine immediately under the tracks to break up the ascent - you go straight up to platform level. But the station platform isn't much higher than most elevated platforms.
--Mark
Another tough one is the transfer from the L platform all the way up to the M platform at Myrtle-Wyckoff Ave, when the escalators are not running. That is some climb, especially when you are running late and you try to run all the way up.
Also I've included here, the summary of the project by chapter:
General Introduction
This section covers my fascination with trains, how it evolved and how it led to the ambitious transit project
Chapter 1: Introduction to the Transit Project
This chapter will describe the focus of the project itself. It points out the goal of providing more subway coverage for the city as well as providing service to the suburbs. There are descriptions of current problems the current subway system faces and possible solutions that are implemented in the alternate reality of the transit project.
Chapter 2: Expasnion of the Current Routes
This chapter focuses on the extension of the current routes in both the A and B Divisions of the current system, which are all affected in some way by the larger system that is presented here. The chapter also describes the use and need of additional route markers and lines which were discontinued that continue to play a role in transit operation. Also included are ROW's of selected rail lines that now feature subway routings.
Chapter 2 was the result of three original documents that I've produced for last year's railfan audience that has been merged together into one document.
Chapter 3: Trunk Lines
This chapter gets into the heart of the project, by listing all the trunk lines of this much larger alternate subway system. Included are 2nd Avenue line, the IND Second System and many other original lines, a few are based on or are variations of proposed lines that railfans on Subtalk have posted in the past in various threads. This is chapter is one of the longer chapters in the project and one of the original documents I have produced for last year's group of railfans. Every line and possible connection is included, covering all five boroughs, and surburban counties in New York, New Jersey and Connecticut.This chapter includes an Appendix, which is also of extended length covering details of information in regard to the trunk lines. Many interesting aspects of transit operation are found in the Chapter 3 Appendix, which is divided into five smaller appendices. A comprehensive listing of river tunnels, shuttle routes, track connections between the A and B Divsions as well as to commuter and freight trackeage and other intriguing things are found in the Appendix. Note that any remaining general transit information is included in Appendix A at the end of the project. (see below) Chapter 3 now includes a introduction in regard to the context of the document.
This appendix, which was another original document for last year's railfan audience will be mailed with Chapter 3.
Chapter 4: The Route Markers and Routing Information
This chapter lists all the route markers that are used in the transit project and markers not used. Following the table of route markers are routes themselves, with listings of terminals, trunk lines, operation times, rolling stock each route uses and the yards each route uses.
Chapter 5: Rolling Stock, Yards and Equipment--Part 1, 2 and 3
Chapter 5 also delves into the heart of the project by providing a comprehensive lists of rolling stock used in the transit project. This Chapter primarily consists of tables that lists all the cars used and that are in service. Each car class has been expanded to at least twice its size. This chapter is one of the longest in the project, and because I found that composing this all this information added up over time, the chapter is divided into three parts. The first part is completed, the other two I'm still working on while I'm completing Chapter 4. What you may find when reading this chapter is the overwhelming number of cars used, but I've got around the capacity issues somewhat by introducing a system of car transference from one yard to another--which will all be explained in this chapter. As I'm certain every railfan has a favorite car--real or fictional--you will be sure to find it in this chapter.
Subway yards are listed in this chapter also, and there are a lot of them.
Like Chapter 3, this chapter also features a brief introduction and an Appendix at the end. The Chapter 5 Appendix covers prewar cars listed for both the IRT and BMT and additional general information about rolling stock that wasn't covered in the main chapter and the chaining codes used for the additional trunk lines.
Chapter 6: Station Design and Architecture
This chapter covers some intriguing designs of underground station design. Some elevated and grade/cut/embankment stations are covered too. Also covered are a more detailed expansion of the IND color coded station tile system and more creative designs on the moaics motifs and wall signs on the IRT and BMT.
Chapter 7: A Fictional History of the New York City
(later Metro Area) Subway System
This chapter, aslo covers the heart of the project and supports one of the main points of the project: subway development in New York under different circumstances, different attitudes, a different spin on politics, finances and social concerns. Chapter 7 will be entirely in a fictional context using realistic facts and events for support and as a foundation to illustrate transit development in another reality.
Chapter 8: Commuter Rail and Light Rail--Further Development and Expansion of the LIRR, Metro North, NJ Transit and the new Light Rail System
Though the prime objective of this project is the subway, the project does not leave out commuter rail. As part of mass transit system, I felt it was integral to include further development of the three commuter rail systems in the Metro Area to supplement subway expansion to the suburbs in the form of more transfers and more inter-regional traveling options. The inclusion of commuter rail in the project also provides a single large mass transit entity consisting of subway and commuter rail designed to cover the entire New York City Metropolitan Area within a 75 mile radius. It is set up so that the subways serve inner zone areas (NYC, neighboring cities in Westcheter, and New Jersey and the immediate suburbs outside these regions) and commuter rail serves the inner and outer zones (outer zones being distant suburbs and more remote areas) The inclusion of the light rail system is simply the expansion of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail System, which is expanded entirely to reach many regions--first and foremost developed to the system that NJ Transit is working towards--see the NJ Transit site for all the planned extensions of the light rail system--and providing an additional link between NY and NJ via original routings.
Chapter 9: Expanded New York City Subway System--smaller versions
This chapter provides other additional scenarios of the subway expansion in the city. I'm not sure yet of how many scenarios I'm going to include in this chapter, but there will be two included, which I can tell you right now.
(1) The first scenario is simply an extension of the current system using only past proposals the MTA, the TA and the Board of Transportation has made. Notably included is the full development of the IND Second System--both 1929 and 1939 plans. This system is confined within the borders of the city and except of one route to Jersey City, offers no extensions to the suburbs.
(2) The second scenario is an expansion of the first, but a scaled down version of the main scenario that this project fouces on. It is simply a modest expansion of subway service into Nassau, Westchester and New Jersey, covering only the immdediate Metropolitan Area.
Appendix A: Miscellaneous Items regarding Transit Operations
This Appendix describes/lists information that wasn't covered in the Chapter 3 Appendix or in Chatpers 7 or 8.
Appendix B: List of Stations of the Extended NYC Transit subways
This is appendix lists all the stations that "exist" in the project. They are classified by trunk line. Current stations are also listed.
(1) Question and Answer section
This section focuses on questions you may have about stuff that you may not be clear on, or have in the back of your mind, that I've thought of ahead of time. This document is half completed, and since the questions covered thus far are only about the first five chapters, I may likely send the first half of this document after Chapter 5, to see if it answers any questions that you may have.
(2) Feedback--What Do You Think? Comments, Suggestions, etc.
This section is simply a feedback section where you can freely comment only any aspect of transit operations of this project. It lists various questions of what you think about the material you read. The interesting part of this section is that it includes questions that lists scenarios where you decide how you would best handle the situation or event.
I'm still working on this document as well, but like the Question and Answer document, I'm thinking of dividing it into two parts and mail the first part to you after Chapter 5.
Other documents included in the project are:
1. A list of active towers--includes current ones and ones in operation on the "new" trunk lines. This will also be included at the end of the project.
2. A table of route markers from 1967 when the Christie Street Connector opened. This table also lists ficitional routings that existed at that time, and also provided two additional locations of BMT and IND merger, other than Christie Street. This table will be sent during the second and third parts of Chapter 5 or afterwards.
3. A historical chronology of ficitional routes that dates back from the Dual Contracts era through the 1990's. This is considered a prelude to Chapter 7, and will be likely be sent after Chapter 5.
4. A chronology of the ficitional routes in the order as I've conceived them. This covers routings created over a six year period. This will be send along with the historical chronology previously mentioned.
Chapters 6 to 9 I haven't started yet, but I will be working on them through the summer. I hope to have the remainder of the text portion of this project completed by mid-October.
I would like to share this with as many railfans as possible. Weekly posting of this thread will continue for the remainder of May and through mid-June.
Rembember you can email me privately by clicking on my handle, with your request or to ask questions.
For those who responded, thank you for your interest and taking the time out to be a part of this, I appreciate it very much.
Dwayne Crosland/Xtrainexp.
I had a similar experience...the first time I ever rode MARTA was when I got bumped during a layover in Atlanta to a flight six hours later. I got to ride MARTA, plus the airline gave me a $500.00 voucher for the "inconvenience."
Can't wait to see the pictures!
Mark
Continental.
Lets limit it to abandoned facilities that can be seen by the naked eye from open transit facilities. This excludes abandoned areas that have been used for other purposes, like 14th Street IRT side platforms and the Brooklyn Bridge side platforms.
Candidates include:
1) IND 59th Street-Columbus Circle middle platform
2) IRT City Hall (I've never personally seen this but I understand that the platform and tracks are clean and graffiti-free)
3) Chambers Street BMT middle platform;
Any others?
Honorable Mention:
Old East 180th st station ROW to the Dyre Ave Line, currently a Transit Bureau District Office.
However, unlike some of the other examples noted here, it is not usable as a station. No gap fillers, no fare control, etc.
While I agree City Hall is not usable as a station, there is a mezzanine and fare control area upstairs. It is not usually part of the photos when you see photos of the station at City Hall.
This is one of two exits from the mezzanine. I assume one was an entrance, and the other was an exit, just like most of the Contract 1 IRT stations had.
This is a photo of the other one. It was totally dark, and to see what it looked like, I flashed a photo into the darkness, and this is what resulted....a second of light on the stairway, and then back to the eternal darkness.
This is the stairway from the track level platform to the mezzanine. The circle of lights in the middle was a skylight.
More mezzanine
This is the bottom of the stairway between the platform and the mezzanine. The missing lights along the arch were there the second time I went to the station (I don't have that trip's photos scanned). They actually did a lot of work between my two trips.
More mezzanine. I have no idea what was behind that plywooded up arch on the right. Anyone know? Maybe the ticket/coin/token booth?
In the mezzanine, at the top of the stairway between platform and mezzanine.
Think of how many trains came through this tunnel, includuing the ceremonial first train almost 100 years ago, seen in so many photos.
Unfortunately, no redbirds passed through that day on the 6, and back then they were VERY common yet.
Arti
They were going to do that, but there were concerns about a station under City Hall being an attractive terrorist target. I think there would probably be a way to get around that, but these days terrorist concerns trump all else.
There would be no reason to allow bags to be brought in, securty issu solved.
Arti
I'm a bit confused, how could a terrorist injure that station? The average Israeli-grade suicide bomber with a Semtex Jacket would do largely cosmetic damage, kill probably most everyone on the platform, destroy a bunch of plexiglas and any train passing through would be damaged. It'd take something like two gym bags full of C4, a semtex jacket AND a backpack full of shaped charges before you'd start talking structural damage (kinda hard to hide that kind of power, right?), and then we all remember the first WTC attack, and how well basement bombs do. Oklahoma City would have just been cosmetic damage had the building's rebar only interlocked better.
Perhaps City Hall needs to be strengthened, not only to open an observation platform at City Hall IRT station, but just for general terrorist threats, and even as a general upkeep kind of thing.
Although I don't totally agree that City Hall even would be a target, way too much of a domestic issue, I'd expect to see Rockefeller, TSQ, GCT, South Ferry, the UN, and a myriad other places go before they even thought of City Hall.
Arti
However, even when it was usable, it had very low ridership. That's why it closed. If the station ever did re-open to passenger service—which I think is extremely unlikely—it would be a kind of loss leader for the MTA, an artistic showpiece whose existence could not be justified on pragmatic grounds.
Low ridership and the fact that it would have needed to be extended if they wanted to continue it's use. Not only is it curved, it is VERY short. Extending a curved station on a loop like that would have been a nightmare, even if it was a very high use station. The extension would probably have brought it almost to the Brooklyn Bridge platform.
It's a real shame that they aren't going to restore it for it's 100th birthday. I had visions a few years ago of the station being completely restored, right down to light once again shining through the glass stained ceiling skylights. I believe the vaulted windows were covered with tar to avoid light shinging through during WWII in case of an air raid.
The hope of any restoration has been crushed.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/City%20Hall%20Station/cityhall.html
Honorable mention would be the center platform at 59th Street. It's usually kept quite clean.
But Chambers JMZ center platform?????? You have GOT to take that off your possible candidate list.
R-32
The side platforms are garbage strewn and the station itself is a embarassment to the system, it wasn't even rebuilt with Brooklyn Bridge/Chambers St, shows how much they cared. At least the center island platform isn't as bad as the sides [better not speak too soon]. Remember th ecenter platform at CC is used for trips and its in Midtown so its going to be kept in a pretty tidy condition.
Photos from Joe Korner's site http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/nyctind/roosvelt-rock-line/index.html
Yes, the platform is quite obstructed. The trackways, however, are pretty "clean".
--Mark
We know that you do read the postings in here and let me assure you that it is appreciated but if you decide that this topic would make a good article (and it probably would) could you be a bit more discreet on the locations? The last thing any of us would want is to give vandals a list of targets to hit.
While I am sure most of them would not read the Times, word does get around.
As for City Hall, from what I hear they even have police officers assigned to the platform at that station.
Very true but all things considered most people don't even pay much attention to those places until it gets into the media.
I don't know if they still have anyone assigned to the City Hall station.
(Thats kinda like the tree falling in the woods one)
More importantly, how did he get in??? We probabally know that it would be a railfan who would do nothing but snap photos.
--Mark
While I was down there a G train went by on. (very Twilight Zone) You could have imagined it stopping and people getting off.
The G Train passed through going the other direction.
I hear that they're reopening Franklin Square for the opening of the Independence Mall Visitors Center (is that the name?), so it won't be on the list for too long.
Yes, life is good at the 76th Street station.
The terror alert system should be changed to include the color BROWN.
Hey wait, porky pal, that's sorta treading on my turf ...
Not too much point of that when NY's terror by color system hasn't changed, is there?
Yes, even brown for AP.
Warning: Orange Alert
Expect delays due to overreacting passengers and police officers.
Terror alert changed to same color as the IRT 7th Ave Lines.
Seriously, let's hope that will never get to that point.
Instead of the current color code system:
7th Avenue Alert: EXTREME
6th Avenue Alert: HIGH
Broadway Alert: GUARDED
8th Avenue Alert: LOW
Lexington Avenue Alert: VERY LOW
37 POTOMAC
CODE RED
RIDE FREE
and they have no idea what code red the sign refers to. I think they might change the sign to say CODE RED OZONE or OZONE ALERT DAY but that has yet to be decided.
When people take things for granted and ignore the warning signs, everyone suffers in the long run. Some people KNEW that those terrorists taking lessons in flight school wanted to take off but NOT land a plane. The flight instructors reported this suspicious activity to the FBI and possibly ATF, but they turned a blind eye on that matter.
And whats the point of having a color rating system if they don't bother to share it in any meaningfull way.
1) There's no airport in Providence; it's in Warwick
2) What does it have to do with 9/11?
No, they both took off from Boston. The hijackers flew to Boston from Portland, Maine.
Is that near Quahog?
In the Family Guy episode "Road to Road Island" Stewie and Brian were at the airport and Osama Bin Laden boarded a plane.
It was edited out for the reruns. :-(
Remember the PRIME DIRECTIVE of terrorism ... MAKE people afraid. Our Homeland Security department has made it as easy as a phone call. Every time they say "we make big boom" into a cell phone, our government makes sure that Depends fly off the store shelves.
Now that's a disgusting mental image :)
Remember when it happened, Bush fled to some air base in Nebraska or somewhere and they circulated a story that the bad guys had a bearing on Air-Force One, then, nothing ever came of that story. He was just scared and rand like a child. Ever since its been one overreacton after another.
At the time it was unknown where any more terrorist attacks if any were going to take place. And it was not truly Bush's choice to go to the Strategic Command, he was ordered to do so. Eventually he overruled them.
Cluck cluck cluck ...
Sounds right out of Paul Gobbels' playbook. Better check Shrub for traces of a moustache.
Wal-Mart reports low stocks of bedsheets. Plastic sheeting low again at Lowe's & Home Depot.
I've contacted Mr. Peabody, and he's agreed to let me use the Way-Bak machine. I'm going back to 1887 and helping Frank in Richmond. No worries, no towelheads behind every bush. It's gotta be better than all the crapola spewing forth from Foggy Bottom.
Attorney General Ashcroft is visiting an elementary school. After the typical
civics presentation, he announces, "All right, boys and girls, you can all ask
me questions now."
A young boy named Bobby raises his hand and says, "I have three questions:
1. How did Bush win the election with fewer votes than Gore?
2. Why are you using the USA Patriot Act to limit Americans' civil liberties?
3. Why hasn't the U.S. caught Osama Bin Laden yet?"
Just then the bell sounds and all the kids run out to the playground.
Fifteen minutes later, the kids come back in class and again. Ashcroft says,
"I'm sorry we were interrupted by the bell. Now, you can all ask me questions."
A young girl raises her hand and says, "I have five questions:
1. How did Bush win the election with fewer votes than Gore?
2. Why are you using the USA Patriot Act to limit Americans' civil liberties?
3. Why hasn't the U.S. caught Osama Bin Laden yet?"
4. Why did the bell go off 20 minutes early?
5. Where's Bobby?"
Enjoying an all expenses paid vacation in Cuba, and not in Havana or at any of the resorts.
-Robert King
I am also waiting for someone to propose a Committie for Government Safety.
Reading what the FBI seems to be doing in the Hatfield issue, we may be getting to that more or less here.
It all makes as much sense as the contant debate over 76th Street.
It doesn't exist. It does exist.
Suicide bombers blow up buildings and people 3000 miles away, and "evidence shows unconfirmed threats of possible attacks in the US" is blasted over the TV. Is it any wonder paranoia is growing among Americans?
And Selkirk is right. All the crapola shows that the terrorists win every time the alert level bounces.
"Oh my God, the government says the terrorists might attack. What can we do? What can we do?"
Rule Number 1 -- LIFE HAS RISKS. There are no guarantees. You can walk out of your house and get hit by a car, or have a major heart attack.
Rule Number 2 -- Submit to the crapola being spewed by the media (the PRIME reason for the paranoia) and the terrorists win, and they don't have to do anything- we're doing for them!!!!!
NOTE: 90% of what you see on television is fake. Don't believe me? Law & Order is filmed in NEW JERSEY!!!
And sometimes in the courtroom on the 2nd floor of my building! :)
Brainstorm! I just figured it all out. Depends are, I believe, made by Proctor & Gamble. Find out who's been making big purchases of P&G stock lately, and we'll know who's been making these threats.
Sorry, couldn't resist...:)
It's a home video showing a man trying to attack a rather large woman in front of a house. It might be some sort of dispute between neighbors, but no explanation is given. Anyway, the man finds out that he'd bitten off a little more than he could chew, so to speak, as the woman sends his sprawling on his posterior a few times. It's really funny.
Peter,
Which plug-in? I thought I had them all.
Peace,
ANDEE
Some on this board need that brand of beating, IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
Which shows a certain lack of imagination since the French had foiled a plot in the previous year to hijack a plane and crash it into the Eiffel Tower. But of course we are too superior to pay attention to anything that happens in France.
Tom
http://www.specialoperations.com/Counterterrorism/gign.html
and don't forget to check:
http://democrats.com/elandslide/petition.cfm?campaign=911 for the LEFT wing side and
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/sep2002/sept-s26.shtml for the republican side of the issue ...
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/6/19/165802.shtml
Now just so folks can understand where I'm coming from, there's every good reason to ensure that our law enforcement and administrative types know when there's a higher probability of a terrorist event, that's what police teletypes and such are for. THESE are the people who need to be warned of any available information in order to protect themselves and us.
It is a horrendous disservice to have perky cable news anchors chirping news of fear and destruction without so much as a HINT as to what to DO about it, what to be alert for and what the "common Joe and Jane" can do to help. This, all this "chatter" is destructive in my own mind and seems to be serving NO purpose other than making America cower in fear, just like the terrorists wanted. :(
Or is it part of "Campaign 2004?" It's not like there's any "specific credible threat" to us (they SAID this) ...
You can be sure that when people in myLanta can do something about the terrorist actions, or if there is even a hint of a terrorist attack on hotLanta, See ehN ehN (with Paula "My face is so tight you could bounce quarter off it" Zhan) will be all over it!
And you can bet so will the Weather Channel, even if a tornado were sweeping through Midtown, they'd ignore it, and tell you what the weather would be when the terrorist strike.
All we can hope is that the Braves are the target of said fictional terrorist strike. Heck I'd buy the holy warriors a round of apple juice or sodee pop if they could just knock down a portion of Turner Field!
Thanks for taking it to another level! HA!
And of course since NYC's been orange FOREVER and has NEVER changed, this scam ... err ... "game" approaches the kind of odds that Division of the Lootery LIKES. :)
You've been saying that for months now, and frankly, we DON'T CARE! You've been laying low since 1984 while the rest of us have been having the time of our lives. Your loss.
Peace,
ANDEE
We should organize the Von Subtalk Family to dress in traditional railfan garb and tour the system, singing "Edelweiss" for the adult confidence garment wearing brave gestapo transit police at each river crossing portal station guarding them. Of course, we'll hand out boxes of Krispy Kreme donuts as well.
E comes in and holding lights go on the local track at the Manhattan bound Queens Plaza Platform. E leaves and another arrives with an R (no holding lights on the E). Board the R and off goes the E, now auto recording in the station "To maintian even spacing between trains we are holding this.........local........train, please be paitent". Now third E train arrives and we lose the holding lights so both trains close down and off we go.
Get into the 11th St cut and low and behold we have a red signal where we merge with the N/W in the tube.
Dosen't Queensboro Master Tower know where the N and W trains are? What is the point of making customers wait TWICE, once at the station and then in the cut?
Shouldn't the R just have held a little longer in the station (opps might have held on V service, wouldn't want to switch them to the express track BEFORE Queens Plaza).
Sometimes I don't follow the logic, this is after 4pm, I assume we are into rush hour so why such a long schedule adjustment??
I don't think that move (D1 to D3) can be made at 36 St?
Queens Plaza is the locus of illogic. Seems that the schedules
are arranged so that the E and V arrive at nearly the same time
southbound. The V is always given preference but no connection
is made. It's almost as if they are deliberately giving the
finger to E riders! Meanwhile the empty V goes ahead and the
E does the 2 MPH blind trip crawl into the pocket. Then the V
turns the corner onto 6 Ave and plugs the F.
ROTFLMFAO, Thanks Lou. I needed the laugh.
Peace,
ANDEE
I post at the Rider Diaries, and anti-V people say that the fact the V is given preference over the E at that interlocking and that the F was sent to Manhattan via 63rd is a reason for getting rid of it...though I digress, it doesn't seem that serious, does it?
If anything, most people would generally the V has accomplished its goal of reducing crowdedness on the E and F.
(Of course when your train is directly behind another train, your train can't reach 60 mph, a big disappointment in those tubes.)
It's a bad schedule.
In order for merges to operate efficiently and maintain uniform headways, each of the routes must operate at the same service level. They don't. The E and F operate at 15 tph each. The R and V operate at 10 tph each. The N and W operate at 7 tph each.
Given these disparities, there is now way design a schedule that will permit the E and V to merge at Queens Plaza without frequent merging conflicts. Similarly there is no way to have the R merge with the N and W without frequent merging confilcts. Finally, there will be merging conflicts between the V and F at 50th St.
This is not to imply that tower operations cannot make a bad situation much worse.
Why can't a service operating at 15 tph (i.e. every 4 minutes)
merge with one operating on 8 minutes? It would seem that is
the one example (periods are exact multiples) where the services
would remain "phase locked" and would not drift into conflict.
You would be giving up uniform headways. You are proposing: 0(E), 2(V), 4(E), 8(E), 10(V),... That is not the optimum spacing for a combined 22.5 tph operation which should be every 160 seconds. If you want to adjust the trains with holding lights then you get a long wait as follows:
0:00(E)-->0:00
2:40(V)-->2:40
4:00(E)-->5:20
8:00(E)-->8:00
You would be giving up uniform headways.
No, he wouldn't.
00:00:00 (X)
00:02:00 (Y)
00:04:00 (X)
00:08:00 (X)
00:10:00 (Y)
00:12:00 (X)
et cetera...
It would however begin to resemble the Bakerloo line schedule.
It really depends on whether or not the stations are heavily used. Lex definitely is to the point of being unsafe. Unequal headways would mean that the platforms would become crowded during the 4 minute interval from passengers entering the station (from the Lex). It would also mean that the platforms would become crowded during the 2 minute intervals from passengers leaving the E or V.
15 Es per hour at 100% capacity.
10 Vs per hour at 60% or more of capacity. That means that there are 6 equivalent full V trains.
So 6/21 = 2/7 = 28% of total passengers on E 53rd are on Vs. Not negligible.
10 Vs per hour at 60% or more of capacity. That means that there are 6 equivalent full V trains.
So 6/21 = 2/7 = 28% of total passengers on E 53rd are on Vs. Not negligible.
Not negligible, but it does add some flexibility.
If all E trains in an hour are going to run at 100% capacity on average and people arrive at stations uniformly for that hour, every E train will run at 100% (instead of some at 90% and some at 110%) if the headways are equal. So 60 minutes in an hour ÷ 15 trains = 4 minute headways. For there not to be overloaded trains, this would have to remain equal for all trains: there is no flexibility.
If V trains, however, are running on average at 60% capacity, it does not matter if some run at 100% and others at 20%. In other words, there is flexibility. So the average headway at 10tph would of course be 6 minutes. However, there is ten-sixths flexibility on that headway, making the maximum allowable headway 10 minutes.
Now we all know that on NYCT, the minimum headway usually scheduled is 2 minutes. If both E and V trains ran on their average headways through 53rd Street there'd be a problem. Consider:
E: 00, 04, 08, 12, 16, 20 etc
V: 02, 08, 14, 20 etc
So both routes cannot run on their average headways at once. The E train has no flexibility, but loadings would allow up to a 4 minute shift on the V without overloading. By using half that flexibility, the following is possible:
E: 00, 04, 08, 12, 16, 20 etc
V: 02, 10, 14, 22 etc
Does this make the V negligible? In my opinion, not, but it does have a certain flexibility.
I haven't been up there in a while but I think everything is controlled automatically, in which case the N/W will always have preference as it has the straight lineup. So the R almost always gets screwed if there's an N/W coming down at the same time.
Larry
'If you get caught, have an accent ready (not arabic), and pretend to be a tourist'?
'It's easier to ask forgiveness than to ask permission'?
...I never let it stop me though, and never had a problem at Jamaica.
Hey!!! Where's AirTrain??
Geeze, goin' O.T. again. Well, anyway, not a damn thing. The 9/11 attack struck deep. How can we forget that?? Let's go to a gut level response.
The F**KED with us, man!! At least in the lifetimes of everybody alive today, nothing like it Ever Happened Before. And the nature of it calls for responses that will F**K with us too. Does it affect me personally? Nope. There's always gonna be rules regarding everything anyway. The beauty of this country is that we can still remain personally free while having to deal with various and sundry "suggested/coerced" rules. They surround us like gnats but they don't (generally) torture or kill us. That's freedom.
So maybe youse guys who are goofin' on the alerts and all could remember that. And those depends jokes gettin' kinda old, IMO.
I don't agree. As far as I'm concerned, the sight of heavily armed cops and Guardsmen in Penn Station (and elsewhere) is highly offensive. No, it doesn't directly affect my everyday activities, but it's a miserable sight to see.
And those depends jokes gettin' kinda old, IMO.
I know. I'm trying to think of a replacement.
2/3 of the deaths ob queens blvd could be prevented if people simpy crossed at crosswalk and waited for the walk sign.
Other cities also strictly enforce rules of cars stoping when pedestrians are in the crosswalk. Their are white lines crosswalks. If drivers see a person in the crosswalk he/she must stop and allow safe passage.
NYC needs to enforce the laws it has, and get rid of the laws that make no sense
I disagree somewhat. In Bismarck, that is the rule, but people get killed doing that too.
A car in the left lane (4 lane road) stopped for a little kid who was crossing in front of him. Car in the right lane thought that guy was turning and passed him on the right.
RIP
That's why California has a law making it illegal to pass a vehicle stopped at a crosswalk whether there is anyone in the crosswalk (marked or unmarked) or not.
Tom
...please spare me. You would find your sorry, rude, ass in jail so fast your head would spin.
Peace,
ANDEE
(quote from GTAIII)
Peace,
ANDEE
Peace,
ANDEE
Ain't that the truth.
Peace,
ANDEE
The cops are there to enforce the law
Try following the law and you have no problems PERIOD
The problem is people like yourself feel the law does not apply to them
Tough noogies
The laws are in place for a reason. People want them to keep out of control people in check with our socities norms
Hmmmm, I'd like to see you do that LOL and tell us what happens if you run into a situation like that.......
Darlene gets so ego-obessessed, she posts non-sensical stuff like this...though I think I speak for all of us when we already know and expect this from her!
According to the site, this station is in Bay Ridge. Which station is it?
I can guarantee that it's not 77th, 86th, and I'm almost positive that it's not Bay Ridge Avenue.
I didn't actually use the station when I was there a few weeks ago -- in fact, it was closed for the weekend, with shuttle buses substituting.
The liquor store is on the 5th ave side of the street
I've driven by their a million times and never noticed a subway entrance
2) Do you know if the 20 R-36 cars will be coming up the West Side tonight? What route do they take to 207th? Upper West Side IRT? CPW? Neither?
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Good!
GETTING BACK ON TOPIC, its too bad the Redbirds era on the mainline is finally over :-(.
The meaning of the word was discussed in another thread in the past.
And it isn't just "made up." erythros means red in Ancient Greek and ornithos is bird. There is no name for the disease that some people have with loving Redbirds here so I had to make one up.
And no, I'm not going to call it Redbirdophilia. That's just brain-dead.
And of course all of this is going to be decried. Any insult of the Redbirds here is like insulting Almighty God.
wayne
#3 West End Jeff
Good-bye Redbirds,
Good-bye Redbirds,
Good-bye Redbirds,
We're going to sink you now.
(To the tune of Good Night, Ladies from The Music Man.)
It's funny how it goes around here. Some people will probably bawl over the last one's going (like Choo Choo, I'd imagime :-)) and some people who could honestly give a damn (I look at American Pig's direction).
If anything, I consider myself in the middle. I respect and admire the Redbirds' transformation throughout their lives and what they have endured...but I also know they must go, for the good of us commuters! Farewell 'birds.
Heh, the saddest thing is that I won't have a digital camera in time for the last 'bird. I just know it!!!...and I hate myself for it. >_
Same here :-). Its true the Redbirds time has come but hey at least the R142 order took long as was long overdue or the Birds would of been gone already. Enjoy them while you can b/c soon they'll be a piece of subway history and a memory.
BTW, which (surviving) R36WF cars are in the best shape (with least rust, body rot, leaks, bondo, etc.)? I would like some of them to be used as work units, reserve fleet, sold to private museums, or railroads.
avid
R-32s never had single status, they were always married pairs.
Peace,
ANDEE
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
Wow, there must be some abandoned line in Brooklyn that the A used to use, as they couldn't possibly mean our current A line tracks being unused.
to the exotic - exploring a light-rail line or letting passengers ride on freight lines in Bay Ridge.
Obviously they mean The Bay Ridge Line, not freight lines in Bay Ridge. I love how these items are really researched before they report on them.
Poor article research. We all know that the 4 tracks to 76th Street are in Queens ....
--Mark
They prepose increasing of hour service by utilizing OPTP
They rcognize the need to have more frequent train service but also the need for it to by the right size and affordable to add more service
and they prepose Increasing stations access at all hours by using HEETS and secoundary entrances
One note to all train operators. One man crews is good for the train operator bur not good for the TWU pocketbooks.
One man crews increase your take home pay, and will casue increased ridership due to the fact that riders will switch from other forms of transportaion and it will make areas further from the central business district more attractive increaing ridership.
although 50% of train crew positions will be elliminated through attrition based on the current schedule. Addtioal train per hour will be added resuluting in an effective 25% reduction in train crew postions at higher pay.
Further east on Hillside Ave (not a revolutionary idea), though admittedly that has nothing to do with Brooklyn.
From the article:
Establish longer routes on the F, G, L, R, V, 4 and 5 lines.
Extend the life of retired subway cars by refurbishing them.
Allow for street-level transfers at intersecting train lines, such as the G and M in Williamsburg.
Connect downtown Brooklyn to lower Manhattan and Kennedy Airport through an East River tunnel.
Equip city bus drivers with satellite global positioning system receivers so they don't bunch up and cause delays.
Add express bus service in areas where trains don't go.
1)And what are talking about with the F, do they mean so by extending the Hillside line further east? They need to read on this board as we could make good plans on extending every single.
2)I think they should keep a reserve fleet once the new R160 order comes remember what happened with the R27/30.......
3)I'm mixed on this one, while it would make sense to create a G/M transfer at Lorimer-Bway how much people will actually use it is the unknown.
4)And where would the money come from?????
5)I thought the system was a making in process. I thought the first one went kaput.
6)Yeah I think some of us a while back came up with some nice express bus proposals to provide service to areas with no subway service. Its the best they could do w/o using billions of dollars to build a new subway line.
1 Establish longer routes on the F, G, L, R, V, 4 and 5 lines."
Lovely, but where do the necessary billions come from?
"2 Extend the life of retired subway cars by refurbishing them."
Probably one of the more sensible ideas, but it assumes that you have something to use them for - presumably for covering idea 1, above?
"3 Allow for street-level transfers at intersecting train lines, such as the G and M in Williamsburg."
Yes! Now that tokens are gone, the out-of-station free transfers could be expended to a lot more station pairs very cheaply.
"4 Connect downtown Brooklyn to lower Manhattan and Kennedy Airport through an East River tunnel."
Already discussed ad nauseam on this board. Again, where are the billions?
"5 Equip city bus drivers with satellite global positioning system receivers so they don't bunch up and cause delays."
Good idea in theory. Trouble is, they don't work. High tech is too fragile for mounting on buses, or out in the rain and frost in the street.
"6 Add express bus service in areas where trains don't go."
Good idea. Any ideas on how to keep them "express" when there are rush-hour traffic jams?
GPS systems can be made rugged enough to survive even a NYC bus. The question is whether they will receive the satellite signals amidst all the electronic interference in NYC. Hand held GPSs tend not to work in NYC.
Well, it could extend to New Lots Ave. I'm not sure the practicality of that idea, but it coudl be done.
The V can't be extended b/c of the shortage of rolling stock and the Bergen interlockings aren't rebuilt....
The report acknowledges that more rolling stock is needed. Their suggestion is that as new cars are acquired, old ones should be refurbished instead of being retired. And even under the MTA's plans, net additions to the fleet are anticipated in coming years.
The V could be extended without the rebuilt Bergen interlocking. The local/express switch would need to occur past Smith-9th Sts.
It seems like they wanted a NEW extension of the 3 & 4 east of NL Av to Queens and I don't see that happening although it was kinda vague. It can be done but New Lots Av doesn't need that much service to begin with during the day.
The V could be extended without the rebuilt Bergen interlocking. The local/express switch would need to occur past Smith-9th Sts.
Without the adequate rolling stock forget about it. If they were to implement such a thing now in 2003, the reserve fleets [in case a train breaks down] would be very tight and from what other Subtalkers have said in the past, the Church Av interlockings are in no condition to handle trains at this moment.
Extend the F? Where could it possibly go?
The report doesn't propose extending the F. It proposes making the F express in Brooklyn, and extending the G/V to replace the F as the Culver local during rush hours.
The report does propose extending the V and the G.
Wow, there must be some abandoned line in Brooklyn that the A used to use, as they couldn't possibly mean our current A line tracks being unused.
The report--among many other options considered--observes that the A could switch to the unused outer local tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, pass through the disused Court St station, and from there into a new East River tunnel. It would require the Transit Museum to be relocated. This is one of the well known options for bringing the LIRR/Airport shuttle into Lower Manhattan.
The report--among many other options considered--observes that the A could switch to the unused outer local tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, pass through the disused Court St station, and from there into a new East River tunnel…
…that could go to the Second Avenue subway perhaps?
Yeah, but it would just be so much cooler to put a station back into service that had been decomissioned back in 1946. Of course, that's only if a suitable replacement museum site could be found. Then again, I think building a new subway is more important than keeping the museum open...so I would tolerate a delay if they had to close the museum for a while in order to move it somewhere else. I mean we're already tolerating the current closure...btw, do you know when it will reopen? :)
---Chapter 11 Choo Choo
The problem is that they just put so much money into the Museum, which would go down the drain. But if they wanted to relocated it, there is a place available. The unused tracks at Chambers Street, especially if they were to complete the line realignment and move the mainline completely over to the East.
I suggest the lower level of 9th Av / 39th St in Brooklyn. Farily easy to lock up on both ends, immediate yard access, accommodations for 30 10' B division trains.
--Mark
The proposal suggests moving the Transit Museum to Atlantic Terminal, on the theory that fewer platforms will be used there once there is a direct LIRR connection into Lower Manhattan.
Whether or not Court Street will be put into service is entirely up to NYCT.
Even if those tracks are used, I don't think the station itself would reopen. The whole point is to provide an express to Manhattan, and there's no need to slow the service down by making a stop there. It's awfully close to a number of other stations with better connections—which is one of the reasons why the station is disused in the first place.
…that could go to the Second Avenue subway perhaps?
The report provides a masterful summary of the options. A connection to the SAS would provide Brooklyn riders with a valuable alternative for reaching the East Side. The drawback is that the SAS's Hanover Square and Seaport stations are about 1/2 mile east of the WTC and WFC, but this could be ameliorated with underground people movers. The other option is to connect the new tunnel to the Broadway subway, whose stations are more centrally located.
It ain't so easy. You should read the description in the SDEIS which explains why this option was not pursued.
Warning though. The page doesn't show up on my IE 5.2 for Mac but it does for OmniWeb 4.0 for Mac. I'm sure it'll open up for PC browsers…surprise, surprise :-(
Open up the blank page and open source code (it's View>Source on IE 5.2) and use the Find command to look for ".pdf" to find the filenames.
Replace "BklynTrans.html" on the a