On April 1, one month from now, the TA might likey raise cash fares to $2. Get ready!!
"On April 1, one month from now, the TA might likey raise cash fares to $2. Get ready!!"
On April Fool's Day no less !
Bill "Newkirk"
It's also when the state budget is due (not to worry, it hasn't been on time in 19 years) ... something MIGHTY appropriate about our lawgivers picking April fool's day as "action and result day" dontcha think? :)
Anyone who thinks the budget will be finalized by April 1st is a fool. The last 16 or so years the budget has always been late.
Jeez that sux.
And will the NYCDOT Buses close their operations on 4-1-2003? Will the MTA take them over?
Also NYCDOT Buses Express Fare will be 4 bucks.
Geez!!!
#1979 1 7 Ave Local
I might have fill up my student pass.
Also the private busses will be following suit quicker they claim. And getting rid of the off peak discounts. Looks like everyone's out to screw the working man...
That's pretty coincidal with NJT's fare hike proposal implied on April 1, 2002. I hope these fares last another 10 years as did the old fares. NJT is slowly sneaking away mounds of cents which really added up over the months. A $1.25 increase in RT tickets from Metuchen to New York will really get you over time.
I remember back when I was in 2nd grade when the subway fare was $1.25. Could anyone tell me what the fare was before that and the date it lasted from? Also when did this fare get to $1.50?
before 1948: 5¢
1948: 10¢
1953: 15¢
1966: 20¢
1970: 30¢
1972: 35¢
1975: 50¢
1980: 60¢
1981: 75¢
1983: 90¢
1986: $1.00
1990: $1.15
1992: $1.25
1995: $1.50
2003: $2.00
There is a list at http://www.nycsubway.org/tech/tokens/, but it isn't linked to in the FAQ.
It does have an error, where it shows the NYC token was part of a $1 fare from 1984 to 1986. This makes no sense. The fare went up to $1 in 1986 with the bullseye introduction. No transit agency changes the token without hiking the fare simultaneously.
Many years ago, I e-mailed Jason R. DeCesare about this, and he made a snide response that I should go to the big library on 42nd Street and do research. Well, I don't have to go to a library to look up Times archives from the 1980s:
While the quality of service on New York City's subways and buses may not be rising noticeably, beginning Jan. 1 the price of a ride will increase. After weeks of hearings, occasional demonstrations and almost nonstop finger-pointing, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority on Friday formally raised the price of a bus and subway token to $1. Fares on the authority's commuter railroad lines will also increase, by 11 percent, and tolls on many bridges and tunnels will go from $1.50 to $1.75.
The increases were all but inevitable. The Transit Authority had faced an operating deficit estimated at $225 million next year, and the Long Island Rail Road and the Metro-North Commuter Railroad had projected their deficits at a total of $42 million. By law, the M.T.A., the rail lines' parent body, must approve a balanced budget by the end of the year.
The only alternative to a fare hike was additional financial support from Albany, but Governor Cuomo and legislative leaders said two weeks ago that they would not act to prevent an increase. With the Governor's approval, the Legislature saved the fare last year by extending a corporate tax surcharge that helps subsidize mass transit. When they renewed the tax last December, legislators and Mr. Cuomo indicated that it would probably keep the fare stable only through 1985.
Yesterday, the Governor and Felix G. Rohatyn, chairman of the Municipal Assistance Corporation, said they feared the mass transit system was heading toward a long-term financial crisis. They proposed setting aside $1 billion in surplus M.A.C. money to meet huge transit operating deficits anticipated in the future.1
1Mary Connelly and Alan Finder. "The Rising Price Underground," New York Times 15 Dec. 1985, late ed., sec. 4: 2.
"No transit agency changes the token without hiking the fare simultaneously"
I respectfully beg to differ. The TA DID change the token in 1979 as part of its Diamond Jubilee Year. No fare increase in 1979...
Those were limited edition tokens. I've no idea what they're worth to collectors.
But the existing token remained in use, nobody had to buy any new tokens.
That's true, the Y-cut out token was still valid. I just wanted to point out that transit agencies don't always do what folks expect of them. But you make a good counterpoint.
Here's an abstract of an article in the October 13, 1979 NY Times:
NYC Transit Authority begins circulating new subway tokens commemorating 75th anniversary of subway system. Tokens may prove to be financial bonanza for city because people are expected to keep them as souvenirs. City plans to make special nickel and silver versions cast specifically as souvenirs and will receive $12 commission on each solid gold version that jeweler H Stern intends to sell for $250 each. Design was executed free by Bill Bonnell of J C Penney Company (S).
Well, they were certainly right about souvenirs. I have had a couple of 'em since 1979 and they are among my "treasured talismans of the past". I wonder if the TA will have a Centennial MetroCard next year?
It won't be the same as that Diamond Jubilee token. :-(
Further research shows that the fare went to 90¢ in 1984, not 1983.
The following table gives a little more information. The last column is the % increase divided by the number of years at the old rate, indicating the annual rate of increase over the last fare rate.
From:To:YearsFareIncrease% Increase% Increase / years
1904 1948 44 $0.05
1948 1953 5 $0.10 $0.05 100.00%2.27%
1953 1966 13 $0.15 $0.05 50.00%10.00%
1966 1970 4 $0.20 $0.05 33.33%2.56%
1970 1972 2 $0.30 $0.10 50.00%12.50%
1972 1975 3 $0.35 $0.05 16.67%8.33%
1975 1980 5 $0.50 $0.15 42.86%14.29%
1980 1981 1 $0.60 $0.10 20.00%4.00%
1981 1984 3 $0.75 $0.15 25.00%25.00%
1984 1986 2 $0.90 $0.15 20.00%6.67%
1986 1990 4 $1.00 $0.10 11.11%5.56%
1990 1992 2 $1.15 $0.15 15.00%3.75%
1992 1995 3 $1.25 $0.10 8.70%4.35%
1995 2003 8 $1.50 $0.25 20.00%6.67%
2003 $2.00 $0.50 33.33%4.17%
Tom
Don't forget the introduction of the token @ 15 cents.
Peace,
ANDEE
IIRC there were 2 tokens at 15 cents. The first one was the same size as the token you're familiar with. But the Y was filled in. Unfortunately there were a number of cheap coins that were the same size.
I found this pie chart the BMT published in 1936 showing their operating costs as a percentage of the nickel fare. Wonder what the percentages look like today?
For the year ended December 31, 2000, NYCT's figures were as follows (source: MTA 2001 annual report):
(dollars in millions; totals may not add due to rounding)
Salaries & wages: $2,204 (52.8%)
Retirement & other employee benefits: $577 (13.8%)
Materials & supplies: $242 (5.8%)
Fuel & power: $183 (4.4%)
Computer, engineering, & other consulting services: $166 (4.0%)
Public liability & claims: $82 (2.0%)
Depreciation & amortization: $655 (15.7%)
Other expenses: $66 (1.6%)
TOTAL: $4,175
David
Has it been decided yet if the expiration dates printed on the backs of MetroCards will be honored? It doesn't matter for pay-per-rides, but what about unlimiteds purchased at the old prices? (In other words, do I stock up on Fun Passes now?)
I'd stock up on 30 day cards. If anything it'll keep me off the booth lines when all hell breaks loose. (no joke).
Considering TA has kept using the current token the last time the fare went up, chances are the 1, 7 and 30 day Unlimited Metrocards will still be good as well. Their website won't say that. But I think it'll probably happen. TA might bring out packs of mystery preencoded metrocards out to the booths if they feel people are hoarding them.
The only problem with your plan is that the cost of weekly and monthly cards is not going up that much. The montly card is only going up a mere $3.
You are not saving anything and you increase the likleyhood that if you loose, accidently use a secound card etc, you will be ending out way behind. In adddion you are doing the MTA a favor by loaning them extra money up front and not using the service immediatly.
I think the 7 day card you buy now for $17 will work after the same card sells for $21 ($22?) after the fare goes up. Of course if one stockpiles the cards now, they keep them in a safe place until the fare goes up.
I've never used a 30-day card. I've only used three 7-day cards. I use Fun Passes very often, and the proposed Fun Pass hike is 75%, far more than any of the other cards.
The final price hasn't been agreed on yet. Not that any of us agree.
I have about 2 or 3 FunPasses sitting around. How will that work after the fare hike? Anyone know the new price FunPasses will be?
Probably the official word about fare hikes will be made on a late friday afternoon after 5 PM. All agents will be instructed to sell no more than 2 tokens per person. Also every booth will have 2 or 3 bags of "Mystery" tokens with instruction DO NOT OPEN UNTIL TOLD TO. One of the turnstiles will be closed at every booth and altered to accept a different size token.
What are we to do if customers ask if they can redeem their old $1.50 tokens?
-Stef
If we use the same tokens, tell them the token is still good on the subway.
If a new token is used, the old token and 50 cents will get them a new token.
No matter what we still don't redeme tokens.
I see. In other words, we'll send take the old tokens for a certain amount of time and send them down to Jay St to be scrapped.
-Stef
Assuming a new token comes out, we sell the new token and the old tokens get bagged and tagged as "old tokens". Chances are we'll have the same tokens again.
And I think tokens will be discontinued in the subway. But it likely be done at a later time. People are going to be VERY PO'ed waiting on line that first Monday morning. Tell them that tokens are no longer in use, there will be mini riots.
I might be inclined to agree with you. Token elimination could be a gradual process if it's done at all. There are those die hard token users out there who don't want to use Metros.
It's alot like weaning a child off its mother's milk. They can't get enough of it. LOL!
-Stef
I can imagine American Pig or someone else saying something like:
"Just wean them off the milk cold turkey.
It will be hard at first.
But later on they'll get used to it."
voiceofreason says the same thing. More or less.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=455420
I can imagine American Pig or someone else saying something like:
"Just wean them off the milk cold turkey.
It will be hard at first.
But later on they'll get used to it."
While our porcine pal undoubtely would think that way, those are my thoughts too.
By the way, "wean them off the milk cold turkey" is getting perilously close to mixed metaphor territory :)
"I can imagine American Pig or someone else...."
I guess you're that "someone else" >g<
Do you know a better way I could have phrased that?
Nobody's being weaned off of anything cold turkey.
The token has not been the only way to use the subway in many places for 9 years. It has not been the only way to use the subway for 6 years. The MTA has offered free transfers, discounts, unlimited rides, the ability to pay with credit or debit cards, even something as simple as getting a receipt that couldn't be done with the token.
If these people are still suckling on their mother's teat after all of this gradual weaning, it's time to rip them from her breast once and for all. This is not cold turkey, not at all.
What kind of gradual weaning do you propose? Every single thing was done to encourage people not to use the token, the only thing left to do is to stop allowing the token. What should we have first? Only one turnstile per station accepting tokens? Only some stations accepting tokens? Please. If we had it your way, we'd still have ticket choppers in every station, and you would claim that their removal would lead to a revolt. You would be wrong in that case, you are wrong now.
There will be no new token and no token in general with any fare hike. read the MTA's Fare policy Presentation. slide 51. No metion of new token. Why would there be a riot. Almost no one uses tokens anymore and hoarding tokens will end up costing many riders more because token are at
A. full price $1.50 vs. $1.36 for metrocard with discount. Post far hike proce $1.70
B. Many people use bus to trains metrocard transfer which tokens don't provide
The few foolish die hards who have been paying more to use the antiquated tokens hardly makes a riot
"Fare Change Challenges
Implementation Considerations (continued)
•Some of the core implementation tasks include:
•AFC software migration and testing
•Modification, testing and downloading of fare media tables
•EPROM software chip production and system-wide installation in station devices and bus fareboxes
•Modify and test Accounting System and Fare Reporting System
•Adjustments to MetroCard High-Production Encoding and Ticket Stock Management & Inventory Operations
•Manage MetroCard inventory in 3,000 Retail Merchants including coordinating with fulfillment vendor
•Coordinate with TransitCenter regarding the MetroCard and Premium MetroCard program •Coordinate with MNR and LIRR on joint Tickets and Mail & Ride program •Prepare necessary updates to Reduced Fare materials and coordinate with Reduced Fare Mail & Ride vendor
Just wondering, do you live in NYC?
If your answer is YES
No matter how you explain it
some New Yorkers will not give up the token.
Some old habits are hard to break.
-Stef
Some people think otherwise.
Nope, this is easy to break: Stop accepting tokens. They can continue to play with them and be aroused by them, if that's what pushes their buttons, but the MTA will no longer accept them.
Do you seriously think people will starting smashing and burning subway stations to protest the fact that their tokens don't work? Hardly.
And while their will probably be media stories about poor old token users being forced to trade their precious tokens for evil Metrocards, the rest of us will give these stories a deserved YAWN.
Then they'll have to find a mode of transport other than the subway. When the fare goes up, tokens will be history.
When the fare goes up we'll settle that arguement also!
"When the fare goes up, tokens will be history"
How can you be so sure, David?
This is the first fare hike since the Metrocard. Previously, they had to mint new tokens for a fare hike because hoarding of old tokens would have been a serious problem. Now, with so few people using tokens anyway, maybe they'll just keep the same tokens, raise the price of a token on fare-hike day, and accept that some hoarding will take place. Just as you and others will probably hoard FunPasses. One can only hoard so many; it's only a short-term problem.
Yesterday, the bus company that runs the buses from the station to my office (in the UK) raised the price of its ten-trip tickets. They announced the price hike beforehand and actually encouraged advance purchases at the old price (I bought two extra on Friday; I saw someone else buy three). Why not? It's good for cash flow.
Yesterday, the bus company that runs the buses from the station to my office (in the UK) raised the price of its ten-trip tickets.
ARRIVA N'arrive pas have finally got round to it?!? Last notice I saw was that the fare hike was postponed, but evidently they've put it back on...
This is the second fare hike since MetroCard was introduced, IINM; it's the first since MetroCard was accepted on buses and at all stations.
Fare hikes with tokens are a substantial expense. Either NYCT will lose revenue to hoarders or NYCT will have to spend money minting a new token. In the past, this was simply an unavoidable cost of doing business. Now, with MetroCard accepted everywhere and such little token usage, it's perfectly avoidable. So why wouldn't NYCT use the money instead where it's actually of value, e.g., to pay for service, signal maintenance, station rehabs, or new car purchases, or to push off the next fare hike just a little bit? Any dollar spent on keeping tokens is a dollar not spent somewhere else. NYCT is in the transportation business, not the banking business; it should spend its money on transportation.
I'm sure many people who still use tokens don't prefer tokens, per se, they just haven't bothered switching. I rode the bus with my father a few days ago and I was horrified to see him pay cash, even though he had his MetroCard with him. He simply didn't realize that he got a 10% bonus on the card. He also didn't realize that, if he used an MVM, he could pay by credit card. I told him I was using a Fun Pass; he didn't know what I was talking about. He has nothing against these new-fangled payment schemes -- he's just a bit shy of technology, so he ignores them as much as he can. Many token users use tokens simply because they've always used tokens. Take away the token option and they'll use MetroCards -- and may be surprised at all the discounts they've been missing out on.
He also didn't realize that, if he used an MVM, he could pay by credit card. I told him I was using a Fun Pass; he didn't know what I was talking about. He has nothing against these new-fangled payment schemes -- he's just a bit shy of technology, so he ignores them as much as he can.
That sounds like my father. (Hell, he still calls the "L", the "LL" to this day). He has been using tokens since he was a little boy, and it is hard to for him to accept change in almost any aspect of his life, forget about using a piece of plastic (that he can't physically see how much it's worth in his hands) over a piece of metal that he's used to from when he used the subway every day for most of his life. Forget about new technologies. He hasn't been a regular subway rider since the mid 80's, and basically is stuck at that point, sometimes going years without stepping foot in the subway. He still thinks the old wood turnstyles are still around (although many stations still did have them until about 10 years ago).
A few weeks ago, I was on the subway with him, for the first time in years, and he was just amazed at how nice the system is now (also stuck with a vision of the 70's). He always said he hated the subway (but I know deap down he really enjoyed his rides on it). However, I gave up showing him how to use his MetroCard, or explain that it was a FunPass, good all day unlimited. As the day went on and after a few times I basically just swiped his card, and said, "Go"........
Yes I do live in NYC.
Some people are as stuburn as they come. I live in a former two fare zone with many die harders that refused to use metrocard. To make a long story short, when they saw that they could cut there transit costs in half. They tried metrocard, and eventually sofened thier anti-metrocard stance
My dad was one of them. Afraid to use any technology. He now has a seniors metrocard paying $0.86 oer ride vs $3 if he used tokens
The remaing die harders will have no choice. They will complain for a few weeks. But eventually they will fade into the crowd along with the thousands of others who swore never to use metrocard.
The remaining token users are die hards. I thank them everytime i see someone using a token. They say why? I say because you are subsiding my cost of ride by paying more for no apparent reason
I agree that people can and will be stubborn. They are going to be po'ed when they enter the subway and find the fare has gone up. I think we can both agree on that.
I also agree that they will come around to seeing the wonders of metrocard. But to fare a fare raise AND discontinuibg of tokens? We'll see what happens on that day.
I hope I'm nowhere near it.
I say let's wait and see how things turn out. With tokens out of the picture, I think Pre-Encoded FareCards should re-appear and be used as an emergency supply in case the Booth Terminal goes down. I have no tokens to sell, and the BT is shot to s@#t, what else should i do besides being a change booth for the MVM crowd?
-Stef
I agree let's wait. It's just a matter of time before tokens go. There is a disagreement in here as to when that will be.
If the TA were smart they would keep a small amount of pre-encoded fare cards around especially during the first few days of the turnover. Keeping two many pre-encoded fare cards around
If you read the Fare Policy Presentation it gives hints that it may be a bit harder then it should be to reprogram the turnstyles for the higher fare. If I am reading it right they will have to go to each turnstyle manualy to upgrade the EPROM chip. There should have been a provision to upgrade them from a central location. If the manually upgrade is needed we may see a case where some turnstyles will be deducting and fare box's on buses may be deducting the old fare and some the new fare. The report said it would take 4 days to change over and test everything
All I know it will be a busy week for any transit employee with many unhappy customers when the fare gets raised
IF the MTA does not discontinue the token at the same time as the fare raise it is missing a golden opurtunity to do so. The tooken lovers outcrys will be drowed out by all the other strapangers who are angry about the fare. I rather get all the bloodletting over with at once
TA probably will give booths a supply of pre-encoded farecards about a week before the fare goes up.
TA probably will also have one turnstile at every station closed so that the adjustments can be made. The agent in will booth will ensure that the turnstile is left CLOSED so that no one uses their card and pay $2 for what is still $1.50. However I think the turnstiles won't do that until a signal from downtown comes for all T/S to deduct $2 a swipe or MVM's to sell funpasses at $7 ect.
The last I heard, nothing has been decided at the MTA headquarters. Maybe the fare will only go up to $1.75.
Maybe only a few booths will close.
Hopefully the hearings have had people talking about ways TA can keep the fare at $1.50 instead of talking about how unfair it is.
And as far as the elimination of tokens, I don't think it will be done this April. With the fare raise it is going to be too much to have people pay more for a ride AND do away with tokens at the same time. I'd say tokens will go later in this year. Maybe in the fall.
"Hopefully the hearings have had people talking about ways TA can keep the fare at $1.50 instead of talking about how unfair it is"
I went to the hearing up in the bronx the other day. There were not many constructive comments at the hearing. In fact most of the preregistered speakers spoke the same crap at all the hearings.
There are plenty of ways the MTA could reduce it's operating expence's without significantly harming rider experience. Closing token booths, reducing it's administrative cost, deploying inteligent OPTO especially overnight and weekends, delaying some cosmetic station improvements.
The public hearing process is overrun with special interest groups who never have anything useful to say. It was the same old crap. Gene Russianoff even brought up osama bin laden name. for what reason I don;t know.
Unless someone tells the MTA board something definate and concrete, NOTHING IS GOING TO BE DONE!
Maybe Russianoff was trying to get his name in the evening news. I don't mind people complaining about the subway. But I find it amazing that those people never have suggestions how to avoid a fare raise. If they have a solution SAY IT!
"There are plenty of ways the MTA could reduce it's operating expence's without significantly harming rider experience. Closing token booths, reducing it's administrative cost, deploying inteligent OPTO especially overnight and weekends, delaying some cosmetic station improvements."
Have you said anything at the hearings about reducing the operating expenses?
Unfortunitly there was not enought time to talk about reducing expenses at the hearing. you only get 3 minutes. My primary focus was to let the board know that the average rider supports the closing of part time token booths provided that the proper security is put in place. I was propted to travel nearly 2 hours up to the bronx by the daily news article concerning scapping the tooken booth closing plan.
I have writen the govenor, a few members of the MTA board and a few local elected official concerning reducing operating expenses in a inteligent manner.
What I don't want to see is the reduction in the frequency of trains and cleaniliness of trains. Unfortuitly many people are opposed to the increase in use of OPTO. The G train deployment which reduced the number of cars and did not increase frequency of trains give the anti-OPTO crowd alot of ammunition to use.
I would love to hear some ideas on reducing overhead costs from someone on the inside.
Unfortunitly the reality is that the fare needs to be raised regardless of any cost cutting measures. Many measures to reducing operating expense take time to impliment and realize a savings. The MTA needs to close it's budget gap now. Operational effeciencies such as closing part time token booths for example requires the additioal expense of reconfiguring fare control for HEET's and the cost of the MVM's. Even if the Booths were closed today, it will take a least a year t recope the investment costs of the renovated fare controls.
Similar expenses are involoved in deploying the Inteligent OPTO system I described. On the good news side of things it appears the MTA board is at leaste willing to tackle some difficult fights that in the past was shied away from. The are doing it in a smart manner by not overpromising and falling short.
The biggest thing the MTA needs to do is to flatten out the organizational structure illiminating many middle manager and supervisory roles. This will take some excess undue heat off the average transit employee
(There are plenty of ways the MTA could reduce it's operating expence's without significantly harming rider experience.)
All of these take considerable time and investment. More HEETs, subway cars able to run OPTO, video cameras allowing OPTO in more circumstances, video cameras for security, reorganizing the bus operations for greater efficiency, introducing longer buses, etc., do not happen overnight.
The MTA's surplus is gone now, and NY State and City subsidies are reduced or gone. There is nothing that can posibly be done to keep the fare at $1.75 other than (a) reduce rush hour and weekend subway levels to absolutely crush loads on all lines (with corresponding reductions in midday and evening service) and (b) eliminate or drastically reduce massive numbers of bus lines, forcing many bus riders into cars, taxis, or the subway.
New procedures and technology MIGHT just delay the next increase, to $2.25, for a while, if the MTA manages itself well.
You are absolutely correct money needs to be spent to acheive these operational effeciecies. These technology should have already be deployed in many area especially lines such as the sea beach. If you look at it, better spending of earlier capitol budget would have reduced current operating expenses.
The political forces in NYC and NYS work agianst the MTA to right sizing thier services. I keep hearing that ridership is up 30% so we need to add 30% more service on all lines. this is hogwash. For one many lines had plenty of capasity to obsorb much of the gain in ridership while other lines saw no gain at all.
The MTA tried to close 35 part time tooken booths a few years back. The lack of political support in albany and the inevitable backlash to any change doomed the plan. If you look at it now, a large part of the 177 booth would have already been closed saving the MTA nearly 90-100 million over the 3 year period. Plus the MTA has delibertly left many S/A positions unfilled in anticipating the closing which they are now paying overtime shifts to fill costing extra money.
Local politicians would completly come out against OPTO on the sea beach even with the current budget cut. Imagine trying to deploy this with a small surpus. They would quote seat miles proclaiming a reduciton in service instead of the reduced wait times.
No, these saving can not save us from the current fare hike, but if implimented could save us from future fare hikes. They should be implimented where feasable. It makes me sick to see 8 car Q trains at 2 AM especially after waiting 15 min for the train. The nice thing about metrocard is that is the fare can be rolled back with discounts fairly eaily without implimenting an intirely new fare stucture.
Most of "that" upgrade has already been done in "anticipation" of a change on or about April 1st !
Yes I do live in NYC. Born and raised
Some people are as stuburn as they come. I live in a former two fare zone with many die harders that refused to use metrocard. To make a long story short, when they saw that they could cut there transit costs in half. They tried metrocard, and eventually sofened thier anti-metrocard stance
My dad was one of them. Afraid to use any technology. He now has a seniors metrocard paying $0.86 oer ride vs $3 if he used tokens
The remaing die harders will have no choice. They will complain for a few weeks. But eventually they will fade into the crowd along with the thousands of others who swore never to use metrocard.
The remaining token users are die hards. I thank them everytime i see someone using a token. They say why? I say because you are subsiding my cost of ride by paying more for no apparent reason
I admitt I have bought a few tokens recently. For my personal collection. In addtion I just payed $20 bucks for 16 tokens of various ages from a guy on riders dairies that was looking to turn them in to the MTA for a refund. They have not arrived yet
No matter how you explain it
some New Yorkers will not give up the token.
Toughh doo-doo. If they don't like it, there are plenty of short piers on the Hudson suitable for long walks.
You're welcome to stand at a busy station on Monday morning and explain that to customers waiting on line. I'll be too busy working in the booth to explain it to them.
Bull. The token will be eliminated, there will be no new token. The token's support base is so insignificant now that it will go out with a whimper.
Then its time for the collectors to start their collection.
Tokens will probably still be accepted on buses for $1.50, at least for a while. They might also be accepted at booths and MVM's, also as $1.50.
Probably not MVMs (but who knows?), but definitely booths and buses.
And there will definitely be $2 Metrocards just for trading in one token (and 50¢).
Let's wait until the fare goes up to $2.00. Then we'll resolve this once and for all.
I'll be damn pissed if they start charging a penny on Subway/Bus maps.
Don't give TA any ideas!
$2.00 fare, fine! thats it! No More, not even an extra dime on a pizza slice.
I can remember people saying the same thing about the fare going up to $1.50 some 7 years ago.
MTA! GOING THE TERRIBLE WAY!
There was a guy on riders diaries that had a bunch of old tokens and was asking how he exchage them for a refund. I jumped at the opurtunity to buy the whole lot.
Question...if they raise the fare, will Student Passes be reduced from 3 daily rides to 2?
Probably not.
An ancient enamel white-on-blue "Subway" sign has been revealed on the fence at the IRT President Street subway entrance. I do have a picture of it, but no clue how to show it here.
Go over and see it before they cover it again!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Upload it to your website, then post the URL here.
Apparently, back in the 1970s, the Port Authority proposed extending PATH service to Newark Airport, Elizabeth and Plainfield. It was to be operational by 1978.
It wasn't that NIMBYs got in the way, but YIMBYs! Too many alternate proposals were desired.
True. The PA proposed, around 1971, to extend the PATH Newark-WTC line from Penn Station to Plainfield, using the old Jersey Central Main Line tracks (now NJT Raritan Line) from Elizabeth to Plainfield. What ultimately killed the proposal was its high cost relative to the perceived benefits - it would not add new service, but simply replace one (the Jersey Central) with another (PATH). By 1979 the proposal was officially dead.
True, and probably appropriate.
However, the extension to EWR rail station is on the table. It is my hope that the feasibility study will result in the go-ahead for an EIS, a formal plan and preliminary engineering.
From the November 1974 PATH Newsletter:
"Your future trips to Newark International Airport will become even more convenient when PATH is extended south to meet the airports inter-terminal transfer system"
Obviously this never happened.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hello, I'm usually on BusTalk but I was looking on the Subway Map and I noticed that under the E train schedule has in smal letters "some rush hour trips to/from 179th St" Last time the E went to 179th St was back on December 10th, 1988 (day before Parsons/Archer opened). So, it that true? Thanks in advance.
Ray
Yes it's true.But it's in the peak direction.From 179St in the AM,to 179St PM.I forgot what the scheduled times of those trips are though.
What stops does the E train make and does the F train go express like it use to when the E train was at 179th St on a full time basis? The F train would be the express and stop at 179th St, Parsons Blvd, Union Turnpike then 71st Av. r does the E train make THOSE stops? Thanks in advance!
Ray
I'm not totally sure, but I think the special E's to 179th run express on Hillside Ave.
I think so myself. But I'm not sure.
Yeah, and the reason I say that the E runs express (other than I think someone mentioning it here once) is that the reverse would be a very confusing idea, if the F was to run express. First of all, there are only about 3 E's that go to 179th. Running the F express would confuse F riders, because than a few F's would skip some stations. It's much easier to just send the E express because most people are exprecting the E to go to Jamaica Center , not 179th anyway. The extra E's are just a bonus for either the 179th riders, or the express station riders, so it doesn't matter if the local stations don't get served by the E. The extra E's are a nice way to increase E service, even though Jamaica Center is at capacity. That is why those extra E's go to 179th in the first place - because they wouldn't have fit at JC.
I thought it was because TA uses the express tracks to store trains on the overnights and the weekends.
V is right. There are a few E trains that start or end up at 179/Hillside Ave. The last time I looked at an E timetable, I didn't see any trains listed that went to/from 179 St. I'm wodering if those E trains run express from Union Turnpike to 179 St?
Well if someone knows exactly what times those special E train's run to 179St from Chambers St then I can go this week and let everyone know if the train I was on ran express from UT-179St.
Well if someone knows exactly what times those special E train's run to 179St from Chambers St then I can go this week and let everyone know if the train I was on ran express from UT-179St or not.
I'll be waiting for your report.
It's been posted before:
From 179:
0712 (Hillside LOCAL)
0731 (Hillside EXPRESS)
0751 (Hillside EXPRESS)
0811 (Hillside EXPRESS)
To 179 from WTC:
1708 arrives 1801 (Hillside LOCAL)
1728 arrives 1821 (Hillside LOCAL)
1840 arrives 1925 (Hillside EXPRESS)
1920 arrives 2005 (Hillside EXPRESS)
On this date in...
1880...Getting around New York gets a little easier as the Second Avenue El opens from South Street to 65th Street.
1968...The Metropolitan Transportation Authority is created to oversee one of the world's largest commuter rail systems.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, indeed.
Today, it is the largest commuter rail system in the world.
If you add up all the assets serving New York, together they outclass every other city in depth of coverage:
MTA (all rail assets)
PATH
NJT rail (including commuter trains plus Newark subway, now being extended again to Broad Street)
Hudson-Bergen Light rail
Brooklyn's Red Hook trolley from subway to waterfront)
Amtrak
AirTrain Newark and AirTrain JFK (opening this year)
I am referring to "Greater New York" which would include the west bank of the Hudson from Bayonne to Hoboken.
Yea, and on the other item, it seems they were able to get something done on Second Ave., albeit in 1880.
Peace,
ANDEE
I got off a #1 train tonight and took a cab home, rather than wait for the 2 to 149th St and catch a bus.
A couple of items to take note of:
1) 3s were layed up on the N/B express track between 72-96 Sts for the night
2) Platform at 103rd St N/B is being ripped up, work train at the station
3) Single Track Operation in effect at 137th St to enable transferring to downtown trains, but trains are stopping at 145th St. The MTA service adviosry is incorrect.
-Stef
I saw a 1/9 train today borrowed from the 3 fleet (blue stickers on half the cars and yellow stickers on the other half). (Sorry, no car numbers.) Perhaps one of the 3 trains stored on the express track have made its way into 1 service. I think we can safely assume it will be returned home soon.
David, you mean #1801-#1805/#1896-#1900? I saw that train around 10:45am this morning while taking my break on Bx7 line. Also there are few other 1800's running on #1. I have no idea why they put #3 train run on #1 line.
DNJ
MTA-NYCT TCO/OP
I didn't catch the car numbers. I was getting pictures around the shuttle station when I saw blue and yellow stickers pass by on the local track.
Yeah me too.I saw a Livonia 3 train set on the 1 today and at 96 St heading to Brooklyn,I saw a 1 train set on the 3.The only number's I could get were the last 5 cars;2301-2305.Look's like just for today, Livonia and 240St Yards decided to swap one 10 car train between each other.
"3's were layed up on the N/B express track between 72-96 Sts for the night"
Sounds like TA has a cold weather plan in effect or Lenox yard is closed.
Those trains would have been layed up on the 1 in the Middle between 103-116th Sts had the the #1 GO not been in effect. Lenox was also closed because of the track work near the junction of the 2/3.
-Stef
Here is my latest updated revised 2004 Manhattan Bridge Service.
Service on North Side Manhattan Bridge:
B
6th Avenue Express
[Midday/Evening] – All stops, 145 St to 59 Street, Manhattan; express stops from 59 Street, Manhattan to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge)
[Rush Hours]- All Stops Bedford Park Blvd, The Bronx to 34th Street/Herald Square, Manhattan; express stops from 34th Street/Herald Square, Manhattan to 36th Street, Brooklyn; all stops from 36th Street to Stillwell Ave/Coney Island, Brooklyn
[Weekends/Nights] – No Service: Use D for service to/from Manhattan and The Bronx; and W for service to/from Brooklyn, Transfer between D and W at 34 Street.
D
6th Avenue Express
[All Times except Rush Hours] – Express stops in Manhattan, all stops in The Bronx and Brooklyn from 205 Street, The Bronx to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via North Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Rush Hours] – Express Stops in The Bronx on trip to Manhattan (AM rush hrs), to The Bronx (PM rush hrs), express stops in Manhattan and all stops in Brooklyn from 205 Street, The Bronx to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn.
Service on South Side Manhattan Bridge:
N
Broadway Local
[Middays/Rush Hours] – All stops in Queens and Manhattan, express stops in Brooklyn from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn (via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
[Evenings/Nights/Weekends] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens, through Manhattan, to Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn
(via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
Q
Broadway Express
[Rush Hours/Middays/Evenings until 9:30 PM] – Express stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to Brighton Beach, Brooklyn
(via South Side Manhattan Bridge).
All Other Times: Use D for service to/from Brooklyn, and N or R for service to/from Manhattan.
Transfer between D N and R at Dekalb Ave, Brooklyn.
Service on the Tunnel:
M
Nassau Street Local
[Rush Hours/Midday/Evening] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens, through Manhattan, to Stillwell, Brooklyn (Via Sea Beach line).
[Nights/Weekends] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens to Myrtle Ave, Brooklyn.
Transfer to J at Myrtle Ave for service to/from Manhattan.
R
Broadway Local
[All Times except Nights] – All stops from 71 Ave/Forest Hill, Queens; through Manhattan to 95th St/Bay Ridge, Brooklyn
(via Montague Street Tunnel).
[Nights] – All stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to 95th St/Bay Ridge, Brooklyn (via Montague Street Tunnel).
Transfer to E at 42nd St for local service in Queens.
W
Broadway Express
[Rush Hours/Evening] – All stops from Ditmars Blvd/Astoria, Queens to 34th St/Herald Square, Manhattan; express stops from 34th St/Herald Square, Manhattan to Canal Street, Manhattan; all stops from Canal Street (lower Manhattan) to Bay Parkway, Brooklyn (via West End & Montague Street Tunnel).
[Midday] - Express stops from 57th St/7th Ave, Manhattan to 9th Ave, Brooklyn (via Montague Street Tunnel).
[Nights/Weekends]: Express stops from 57th St/7th Ave to Canal Street, Manhattan; all stops from Canal Street (via lower Manhattan) to Pacific Street, Brooklyn; express stops from Pacific Street to 36th Street, Brooklyn; all stops from 36th Street, Stillwell Avenue, Brooklyn (via West End).
Another Service option for M
M
Nassau Street Local
[Rush Hours] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens, through Manhattan, to Stillwell, Brooklyn (Via Sea Beach line).
[Midday/Evening]- All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens to Chamber Street, Manhattan
[Nights/Weekends] – All stops from Metropolitan Ave, Queens to Myrtle Ave, Brooklyn.
Transfer to J at Myrtle Ave for service to/from Manhattan.
Please Keep in mind that this is not MTA's 2004 Manny B proposal.
Since the W is in the Montague rathole why not just make the N the Broadway Express to simplify things and make your friend Fred even happier?
Broadway:
EXPRESS = 63rd Street Tunnel / Via Bridge
LOCAL = 60th Street Tunnel / Via Tunnel
Anything else takes a penalty in tph for crossing and congestion.
Elias
OK Elias, who am I to argue?
That's one of the most sensible plans I've seen so far. On the B during Rush Hours you specified all stops from 36th Street to Stillwell, yet you did not specify it for Midday/Evening. Are you suggesting that the B should run express south of 9th Ave at these times?
Does anyone know or have resources as to when all of the major river tunnels, either Queens-Manhattan, Brooklyn-Manhattan, or Bronx-Manhattan, were completed? Thanks for any help.
Does that include car tunnels as well (such as the Queens Midtown) or only subway/commuter rail tunnels?
Here's a quick list:
Subways listed south to north:
Joralemon, Lex IRT, 1905
Montague, BMT, 1920
Old Slip, 7th Ave. IRT, 1919
Fulton, IND 8th Ave., 1933
Rutgers, IND 6th Ave., 1936
14th St., BMT Canarsie, 1924
42d St.(Steinway), Flushing IRT, 1915*
*actually completed 1907 for trolleys but not used full time till 1915 when subways took over.
53d St., IND Queens, 1933
60th St., BMT Astoria, 1920
63d St., IND, 1989
Lextington/125th St, Bronx IRT, 1918
145th St/Lenox, Bronx IRT, 1905
155th St, IND Concourse, 1933
Railroad tunnel:
32nd/33d Sts, LIRR & Amtrak, 1910
Vehicular tunnels:
Brooklyn Battery, 1950
Queens Midtown, 1940
Late 19th Century and early 20th Century engineers made miracles...
So technically the Joralemon tubes are a few years older than the Steinway tubes, but the Steinway tubes appear to be in much worse shape and more poorly designed. I guess it was all in the construction. No doubt because the Steinways were built for trolleys.
NO! Construction of the Steinway tubes started earlier than the subway and it was to open first, but an explosion halted construction.
The tunnels were completed to spec.
Really? I agree with QTraindash7's thought on the Steinways being in much worse shape. I don't even think they can even be expanded. Aren't they the only subway tunnels that are made of cast-iron? That's obviously hard to cut so deep in the water.
(Old Slip, 7th Ave. IRT, 1919)
Not to be picky, but I always heard that one called the Clark Street tunnel. Kind of like the Brooklyn Bridge.
(Fulton, IND 8th Ave., 1933)
Always heard that referred to as the Cranberry tunnel. Perhaps because I live in Brooklyn.
You are correct for both.
Joralemon, Lex IRT, 1905
There was no IRT Brooklyn service until January 9, 1908.
I stand corrected. Thanks for the info. The tunnel was constructed between 1905 and 1908.
Tried to send you an e-mail, but the address you have in Subtalk doesn't work.
Are there any plans in the near future to make an express train that will run from stillwell,bayparkway,62 st to 9th ave?
None AFAIK.
If there were expresses on every South Brooklyn line, I would guess the M/W or B/W would be the next in line.
It would be worth wild for the MTA to reinstate express service on the west end line. The slowness of the west end line encourages many riders take express buses into the city which are more costly for the MTA to operate and clogg up traffic on the gowanus/BQE/BATTERY TUNNEL and manhattan streets.
Better feeder bus routes need to be set up to encourage ridership at the express stops. When my girlfreind lived at cropsy and bay parkway in bensonhurst, the bay parkay bus would take forever to come. The MTA could put extra trains special bay parkway buses as they do on the B3 during the morning rush to shorten wait times and increase usage
One cannot "reinstate" what has never been "instated." There has never been scheduled express service on the West End Line. I don't know that there is (or can be) enough ridership to warrant such service, though it might be worth looking at.
As to bus service,
1. The B3 no longer has short-turns at E. 16th Street (Brighton Line subway station). All trips run through to 25th & Harway Avenues as of September 2002. When Stillwell Terminal reopens, consideration will no doubt be given to reinstating this service (it was discontinued to mitigate the impact of Stillwell Terminal construction on Brighton Line riders who need to get to/come from Coney Island and could use the B3 to/from the W train instead of the Q train to/from Coney Island).
2. Neither the B6 nor the B82 have their maximum load points anywhere near the Bensonhurst end of the line. There is plenty of room on buses between the Bay Parkway station and Bay 37th Street-Harway Avenue or Canal & Cropsey Avenues.
David
The issue is not plenty of room, but rather frequency of service. The bus just does not come often enough for riders to take it to 86th street for the b/w/m train. Extra short run service if provided would gain populararity if the west end was quicker then other route's into the city Factor in the slowness of the west end line and presto you have tons of express bus riders
The density around the west end line is just as dense as the brighton line. the reason the brighton line is more popular is due to it's express service and fast convient ride into manahattan. At leaste 25% of brighton riders come off feeder bus routes or people drive over and park near the stations.
As for the B3 short runs. They make the commute to the station much faster for riders in the kings plaza area. Besides the extra service they bypass many stops saving time. They also get away from the god offul bensonhurst bound bus schedule which gives the bus driver far too much time to get from E71st street to E16th street station. It is a regualar occurance that the bus waits a few blocks prior to nostrand ave checkpoint to kill time. even during rush hour with a crowded bus. I have been driving to work recently an have not noticed that it was discontinued
I lived at Cropsey & Bay 37 for about a year and the walk between there and the 25th Av station was hardly a killer. Heck, I even walked to the Bay Parkway stop quite a few times. There is really no need to make it into a two fare trip unless the weather is particularly bad.
(We're starting to get into BusTalk here, but...)
By "voiceofreason"'s logic, the B71 should run every 2 minutes, and the S42 should run every 2 minutes, and so on and so forth. NYCT does not base its proposed service frequencies on its current service frequencies; it bases them on how many people are using the buses at their current service frequencies. There are two routes in the corridor "voiceofreason" is talking about. They're both at rather good headways, even by NYC standards, and neither is anywhere near its most crowded in the corridor he's talking about. Thus, there is no justification for running more service there. If "voiceofreason" is willing to fund the increased service himself, I'm sure NYCT President Reuter will be happy to arrange a photo opportunity to accept the check.
David
Oh, and as to the B3:
ALL trips that previously terminated at E. 16th Street were extended to 25th & Harway Avenues with the September 2002 pick. Currently the exact same number of trips is operated on the B3 on weekdays as was operated before September 2002 -- only the destinations have been changed. If anyone has an E. 16th Street sign displayed, either he/she has been ordered to short-turn the bus by management or supervision, he/she is doing it on his own (a rule violation), or he/she has the wrong destination displayed.
David
David,
There was a rush hour West End Express service prior to the 1967 opening of the Chrystie Street connection. May i suggest that you check the history of the subway lines that are linked to NYC Subwway.org for the details.
I recall reading that there was both a West End Broadway Express and a West End Nassau Street Local service during rush hours
Thank You
This has come up a few times in past discussions and you are mistaken. The "express" referred to the service pattern on the 4th Av and Manhattan segments, not on the West End segment. As far as anyone knows, West End has never had regularly scheduled express service on it. The confusion is similar to how the F was called "6th Avenue Express" on old side signs -- express referred to how it ran in Queens, not 6th Av.
You're welcome.
What was referred to as the West End Express in the pre-Chrystie days was the T train. It ran express under 4th Av. but not on the West End segment. IIRC it ran during rush hours only from Sept. 1965 (when I started riding the subways) through Nov. 1967. The TT was the mainstay of the West End in those days. In Nov. 1967, the B replaced the T although the TT hung on a little while longer.
When my girlfreind lived at cropsy and bay parkway in bensonhurst, the bay parkay bus would take forever to come.
Three blocks? If the bus takes that long, did she think about the possibility of walking?
they could start an express service where trains would start at stillwell, stop at Bay 50, 25th street, and Bay Parkway, then run express to 62nd street, and from there run express until 9 av. The W train could probably operate that way during rush hours, with the M making the local stops.
I thought the reason was a lack of signals at a certain stop.
I see that between Forest Hills and Roosevelt Ave. the E Line bypasses 5 stations, Whats the fastest speed that has been obtained on that stretch? Or Whats the fastest anybody witnessed? Thanks!
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling here!
New York City Subway BVE Authority
110 MPH
LOL.
Peace,
ANDEE
It depends. Sometimes during the rush hour, the E doesn't even go past 15 MPH bypassing stations between 71 Av and Roosevelt going Manhattan Bound because of congestion entering Roosevelt. If possible, I'll just have to peek into the speedometer in one of the unused cabs and see how fast it actually goes, assuming we won't run into an infinite number of reds and yellows...
the best i have ever seen on a manhattan bound express between continental and jackson heights is 40-41mph for a R32 and 45mph for a R46. of course this isnt rush hours, and in rush hours not only do u have more trains, but u have the big downhill when leaving 67 avenue, u have lots of Grade timers to slow trains down that hill. then u can fly through woodhaven blvd slattery plaza, only to slow down for another timer entering Grand Avenue newtown. it says red until u face it and then it turns green from red. but u better be doing the allowable speed or else u can get tripped. then u have the station timers entering jackson heights. not only that but recently, they are doing third rail protection board replacement around jackson heights, so trains literally crawl out of jackson heights. also be careful, supervision lurks around continental, jackson heights and queens plaza alot on weekday rush hours expecially mornings.
65mph..in regulated speed on a R46[when new]between Roosevelt ave and Queens Plaza
I should know. I took the E express on the way home Thursday. But the train went so slowly and stopped a few times. I tranfered at 74th street and got on the V train which dispite the stops was much faster. I learned a lesson: "Never take an express train at rush hour".
And in most cases, don't wait for an express if the local is about to leave. The time savings for the express will diminish.
Well Actually the A Express is pretty quick during AM rush hour.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling
New York City Subway BVE Authority
Are you kidding? I take the C train almost every day from Utica/Rockaway/Bway Jct to Euclid, and it actually does travel faster than the A, especially during morning rush hour. The only time the A goes faster is when its late and the driver tries to get over on the speed limit. Even in Manhattan, I can recall about a dozen times I was on the C from 42nd to Canal, and we kept catching up to the A so many times to the point where the dispatcher at Canal couldn't remember which train was supposed to go first (after about 3 min. wait they chose the A).
The only place where the A runs faster is Manhattan-bound from Euclid to Bway Jct, not accounting for the door-holding delays at both Euclid and Bway. And, sometimes it takes less time from 59 st-125 St, simply because it makes less stops; not because it goes faster, especially if a D or a late B/C cuts in front of it.
I take the A/C Lines every single day to school from Nostrand Ave. - Euclid Ave. and vice versa, And after school I see the A Train most of time is late, and I've seen the A Train R44 hit 45+ mph.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
There are no grade timers coming into Jackson Heights. Those GTs are leaving Elmhurst Avenue EASTBOUND.
I have witnessed in this stretch 40 mph, but that is because of safety issues regarding a downgrade in Rego Park and a curve in southern Elmhurst (by Newtown).
Manhattan bound is considered southbound and Jamaica bound is considered northbound on the Queens Blvd. IND. On the express tracks between Continental and Roosevelt, in the southbound direction due to upgrades entering 67th Ave. and entering Roosevelt and due to grade timers from south of 67th Ave. to the north end of Woodhaven Blvd. and around the curve going into Grand Ave., speeds are not that great. However northbound leaving Roosevelt to north of Elmhurst Ave., the speed is the highest. You can easily reach 45 MPH. Then you have to slow it down at this point due to a couple of grade timers till you get south of Grand. After that, as long as trains aren't direcly in front of you, there are all greens till Continental. Good speed is reached between Woodhaven and 63rd Dr. then the upgrade to 67th Ave. slows you down.
That timer outside Elmhurst Ave. is a bitch. The trains reach a high speed thru the station then they immediatley decelerate, moving slowly thru Grand Ave before accelerating again. Thru Woodhaven the trains fly.
I worked the E line from May 1999 (when the WillyB closed) till July 2001 (when the V was born). I know that grade timer well! Not exactly one of my favorites!
Just watched everyone's favorite subway themed movie. During a fight scene in Union Square there was an area which was designated as an "arcade" with pinball machines and other devices. Was this merely part of the movie, or did it really exist?
Much of the footage at Union Square was actually shot there. At least I recognized most of the surroundings. For instance, you can see an R-12 heading an express train at the IRT stop. They did a quick cut to a station pillar on the BMT Broadway station when the leader looks around at one point. This particular pillar had a "To 14th St. subway" sign with an arrow, and I remember those signs very well.
Even the Canarsie line's Union Square station is featured in the movie.
If Steve says it, then believe it. Between him and Wayne Slants 40, these are two of the biggest subway nerds around. Their knowledge of the trains and stations astounded my last fall. I really felt like a pilgrim around them.
Thanks for the compliment, but I can be wrong at times. I used to wait for N trains at Union Square fairly regularly, so I recognized that "To 14th St. Subway" placard immediately. They used to be on every other station pillar at platform level just below the "Union Sq. 14th St." station signs.
I think it was part of the movie.Back in those days if it was true the way crime was back in days the machines would have been vandalized.Plus it would have been a good hookey spot:)
Sorry,
I did not see this before I posted my subsequent post.
Peace,
ANDEE
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The current Queens Tribune reports that City Councilmember Peter Vallone Jr. (his daddy's place-holder) has introduced a bill to establish a commission to study the possibility of seceding from the state. (The link is http://www.queenstribune.com/news.html#7 for those who wish to read it.)
I'd be very interested to see how secession would impact the MTA and its operating agencies - especially NYC Transit. Maybe NYCDOT would take over Transit, instead of the other way around? Any thoughts?
This is just a political talking piece. The federal government would never allow New York State, which is represented by two Senators, to be represented by four. My idea has been for the part of New York south of I-84 to join New Jersey: those Upstate would be glad to see us go. In which case all of the MTA and PATH would become part of New Jersey Transit.
[The federal government would never allow New York State, which is represented by two Senators, to be represented by four.]
But it wouldn't be one state with four Senators; it would be TWO states, each with TWO Senators...
- The new state (New Amsterdam? South New York? Old York?) would have two Senators;
- The old state (New York? North New York?) would have two Senators, one of whom would be Hillary Clinton!!
More relevant, though, is that the City would no longer send legislators to Albany (because the City Council would presumably become the new state's legislature). Sheldon Silver would lose his job AND his entire power base overnight, which is part of why it'll never happen.
Let there be New York State and the Independent Free City-State of Gotham! Viva La Revolucion! ;-)
- The new state (New Amsterdam? South New York? Old York?)
Its name proper would probably be New New York.
This topic was covered about a month and a half ago.
If you make New York City a state, you will have to arrange interstate agreements with either the rest of New York, New Jersey and or other states for:
-- Water supplies (New York City would have to go through a special water master appointed by the U.S. Supreme Court to get rights to water that falls in New York State -- it's do-able, but financial compensation would probably be involved)
-- Long-term prison facilites (can't stick everyone in Rikers -- you'd need multiple classification facilities or another interstate compact to house your worst felons elsewhere, the way D.C. does with Lorton and a couple of other facilities)
-- Power generation (PASNY would have to have a literal "power-sharing agreement" worked out, since the Authority as drawn up by Mr. Moses belongs to the state, not the city).
You would also turn the New York City Council in to a state legislature, but it would probably include about a third more representatives, since there would have to be an upper and lower state house (unless the city adopted the Nebraska single house format). Some of those pols could come from those currently serving in Albany, though adding more elected officials to the city's current political structure is about like giving a two year old lighted matches and a spray bottle full of butane. Not recommended for the long term benefit of the general public.
They would not have any tax reciprication because NY state does not have reciprication with any other state.
NYS residents who work in the city would have to fill out a full NYC non resident return and a NYS resident return with a credit for tax paid to the city. What a mess!
But would Jersey want us? Think about how much larger Jersey's government would have to get in order to support all the government-funded programs we have here in NYC.
Why in the world would New Jersey want New York City, instantly gaining a single city which would dominate the politics of their state?
And cause rural Jersey residents (yes, there more than a few of them in NW and South Jersey) to resent NYC in the same way Upstaters already. We'd be trading one set of bad neighbors for another.
And what if New York City DID become a state? How would the cities be broken up? Or would things like that just stay the same?
You could have a state with 5 cities(Boroughs)
Quoted from the February 1968 issue of the "New York Division ERA Bulletin"...
Fuses have been removed from side destination lights on R-1/9's so they cannot light and outshine the R-40's which will not have any lighted destination signs and only partial destinations and no routes.
This would indicate that there was concern that the old cars would look better than the new ones because they had lighted destination signs. Is this really the way it was?
It seems to me that they didn't want to let people know that they were too cheap to include sige destination sign lights in the R-40s.
#3 West End Jeff
The R-7/9s that were transferred to the Eastern Division had the light bulbs removed from their side destination signs, and the new roller curtains that were installed did not have holes cut out at one end to allow access to the bulbs. There were circuit breakers for the side signs in the cabs, so you'd think there was no need for fuses.
IIRC the side signs on old timers that remained on the IND still worked, although I rarely saw one that did after 1968.
MetroLink looks at new lines to Overland, West Port area
By JIM GETZ Post-Dispatch
02/28/2003 10:27 PM
Planners for the MetroLink rapid transit train system are for the first time leaning toward a route that would serve both north St. Louis city and west St. Louis County - the two constituencies now the most vocal about getting light-rail service.
A plan to serve both inner-city residents dependent on public transportation and suburbanites fighting traffic jams could be what's needed to convince county voters someday to approve another quarter-cent sales tax increase for transit. The plan, however, probably puts a once-planned route to Florissant on the back burner.
"It's the right transportation plan and the right political plan - you have to have both in concert to make it happen," said Larry Salci, president and chief executive of the Metro public transportation agency, as the Bi-State Development Agency now calls itself.
In a letter to a U.S. House transportation subcommittee Friday, the East-West Gateway Coordinating Council is asking Congress to authorize the plan in the next multiyear transportation bill, which would cover 2004-2009. That would enable MetroLink planners to get money for initial engineering work. If it gets funding, the route would be built after 2010.
Friday was the first time transportation officials publicly said they were going to request federal money for a priority other than three previous general route extensions: north to St. Louis Community College at Florissant Valley, west to Chesterfield and south to Green Park in south St. Louis County.
The new "Y-shaped" proposal is a hybrid, using only parts of the full-length north and west ideas. It would start at the convention center in downtown St. Louis and head north to a station on Union Boulevard. From there, it would split: The north line would continue to Northland Shopping Center, the west line to West Port Plaza.
The west line also would have a spur southward to Clayton, where it would connect with the new line now being built from Forest Park west to Clayton and then south to Shrewsbury. That route is expected to open in 2006.
Jerry Blair, director of transportation planning at Gateway, said the north-and-west line is estimated to cost $1 billion in 2007 dollars. He said the big difference between this route and earlier plans is linking the north and west lines.
Gateway's executive director, Les Sterman, agreed and said the idea was not a response to pressure from St. Louis city activists or West County mayors. Rather, it is a refinement of general ideas into something more specific, he said.
But Salci said voices from those areas had influence, even if he disagreed with criticisms by some of them about the Clayton-Shrewsbury line.
"I would sound foolish if I said I hadn't listened to the north city and West County residents," he said. "They both want more MetroLink. Rather than try to make it a zero-sum game, and build all or nothing, I saw in San Francisco how they built in a Y (shape)."
Some of the activists were at a meeting Friday of the Metro system's board to argue again that the $550 million Clayton-Shrewsbury line ignores inner-city residents and is so expensive it will force more cuts in bus service that poor and elderly people rely on.
The activists, from the Coalition for Responsible Transit and ACORN, continued to push their alternative to the Clayton-Shrewsbury route; it would include part of the proposed west line.
They took the north route proposal as a partial victory, even if it is a decade away.
"Had you not had public input," coalition member Tom Currier said, "you never would have had the public dialogue you had today."
In any case, the new north-and-west line would be built only after a South County segment extends the new route from Shrewsbury to Butler Hill Road, possibly in 2009 if federal money comes through.
The Metro board is hoping that because all local money is being used to build the Clayton-Shrewsbury line, federal officials will be impressed enough to fully fund the South County extension. If not, all of these plans might be 30 years away. That's because $419 million in borrowed money for the Clayton-Shrewsbury extension will take 30 years to pay back, and the Metro bus and rail system would not be able to afford anything else until then.
Back in 1994, Union Pacific Railroad was proposing commuter rail service from St. Louis west to Pacific and south to Crystal City, but never went through. Does St. Louis still have plans to bring commuter rail?
"Does St. Louis still have plans to bring commuter rail?"
Not really. Every couple of years someone floats the idea but it dies very quickly.
It was the first day of Operator Training at BERA today. There are eight of us in this year's class, including two SubTalkers besides myself. Sparky (John S) and all the other instructors were concise, thorough, knowledgeable and above all, patient. Training cars today were ConnCo 775 and Montreal MUCTC 2001. All of us had handle time as practice, getting familiarized with the cars and the railroad.
I can say truthfully that I should have been there years ago. Today was interesting and I learned a few things about trolleys I didn't know before. There are four more class sessions to come. I actually am looking forward to them.
PS Sparky, the GG DOES go around the curve at Bedford/Nostrand faster than 2001 at Branford. ;-)
You guys had it good. We had 4573, an open convertible car, last year in the freezing cold. (By the way, I'm not knocking the car. Its one of my favorites, just not in the winter)
True that. Both cars today were warm and comfy. But the instructors reminded us that Operator training used to be held in FEBRUARY...Brrr!
You'll get the privilege to run 4573; you have to put something into full parallel. Watch the forecast for the coldest Saturday of the month ;^)
That would be the first Saturday of Spring, no? It's Spring, take those side sashes off! It's open (car) season! ;-)
You current trainess are whimps, Class of 1985 in February on
CONNCO 1414, learning back poling on Track 10.
;-) Sparky
You will have time on 4573 before the end of training.
I had a total of moving it 10 feet during my training. Then I got that car for my road test, I can I never operated but still passed the road test and qual'd on striaght air (lost a few points for not knowing how to go from Full parallel to full series).
Brrr!
You mean to tell me there's a question on going through COAST? Wow. Just like the TA road test. :)
(lost a few points for not knowing how to go from Full parallel to full series).
That's easy.
Shut off.
Advance controller to full series.
Never, Never Back off.
How about an 1898 Single Trucker with open platforms in 15 degree weather?
BSM doesn't shut down in the winter - we run 12 months of the year.
(We did lose two Sundays due to the monster 28.2 inches of white hell followed by 2.5 inches of cold driving rain which reduced the snow to cold, soggy cotton. Finally got the railroad opened last Saturday.)
Anybody got a Brill 1913 vintage single truck sweeper? We'll take it!!
It will fit right into the collection. Call us.
Sorry, no Brill.....got a spare McGuire....roof optional
Bye Bye #59
8-) Sparky
Nope, no McGuires (might have to cloroform Ed, though) as we never had any, AFAIK. Lewis & Fowler, Brill (1907 & 1913 will do nicely.
The L&F's and 1907 Brills were open platform originally, closed cir. 1912. All hand-braked, single truck.
Yes, but you can always make exceptions to what actually operated
for BTC. St. Louis pre~war PCC, ex San Diego, ex El Paso to be
resurected as BTC. HMM!!!
#59 ready to relocate south of the Mason~Dixon. >GG<
8-) Sparky
However, we had St. Louis PCC's, which all went in the 1956 purge.
McGuire sweepers, nope.....
That's too big an execption.
I voted against getting 503/1503/7303 due to lack of permanent storage, but Ed did arrive at a solution. It came a bit earlier than we first thought, thus why it's sitting bagged on 4 track outside.
The (more or less) official BSM policy is "Baltimore, Baltimore and only Baltimore". The more or less 7303 exception was due to '56 purge and the fact that Mr. Peabody won't lend us the WayBack Machine.
BSM operates on the old Baltimore wide gauge track, right? If so, that would pretty much rule out anything that didn't run there.
Gauge is not an issue. We can & will regauge cars. We are currently regauging a tamper to our 5' 4 1/2" gauge. The ex-El Paso PCC will also be regauged. PCC's are very easy to regauge. The difference is due to axle length. The tamper is getting spacers to regauge it, as it may have to return to that funny narrow gauge at a later time, so the spacers can be easily removed and the tamper put back to TFNG.
As to the Baltimore gauge, streetcars have always used it. It's the MTA's light rail that went narrow, due to the railroads refusal to go to the Baltimore standard.
^^^"PCC's are very easy to regauge"^^^
Pardon my demur, but there is an exception to that expression.
Well the units I refer to are PCC "Look Alikes" and my understanding
is that no one has successfully regauged a Red Arrow 1949 St. Louis
Suburban. May be if a unit were sent to BSM, the gauge could be
widened, but none have been regauged to standard 4' 8 1\2".
8-) Sparky
PS-Have to run now and get to Branford for School Car.
The Red Arrow St. Louies are not PCC cars. They have Commonwealth trucks and a lot of PCC inspired techology, but are not PCC's.
True PCC trucks (Clark variety, but St. Louis made B3's as well) are all "standard gauge". Wide gauge trucks simply have wider axles, and the axle tube casting (containing the differencal case) has extenders welded to cover the extended axle. Narrow gauge PCC trucks are all custom jobs. (see Los Angeles and meter gauge TRC/PCC trucks.)
Philly gauge B2 trucks are easy to reguage to Baltimore gauge. (This applies only to trucks with Super wheels, D1 wheels are hell to remove. Ask PTM.) Unbolt the wheel, remove the outer cheek plate, the outer resilient plate, the wheel, the inner resilient plate, but leave the inner cheek plate (which is pressed on the axle). Insert a plate spacer of the proper deminsion that is drilled for the ring bolt pattern on a Super wheel and reasemble the wheel using longer ring bolts. Presto!! A Baltimore gauge PCC truck.
7303 will be getting this treatment. We have the parts on hand to do it, (the car currently has D1 wheels which will be replaced with Super wheels), but there are things afoot which I can't talk about that will result in a truck swap with another museum that will bring a pair of Philly gauge trucks coming and the standard gauge trucks going.
Does "narrow" refer to standard 4' 8 1/2" gauge?
At least to us. In the BSM archives are track drawings from the United Railways. Every place the strretcar tracks crossed a railroad, the engineering remark would be "standard over narrow".
We're right, it's the rest of the world that's wrong.
O-K.........
Sounds like my ex-wife :-)
Congrats to you JayZee for joining our Operator Training Class. Looking forward to seeing you up at BERA.
Thanks! I'm looking forward to meeting SubTalkers on March 30 and all through the season, too. Hope to meet you soon.
If we are going to exhault plaudits, let get all SubTalkers involved
in the BERA Class of 2003 listed. >GG<
STUDENTS:
JayZeeBMT
Third Ave Rwy
Silver Fox
INSTRUCTORS:
Big Lou from Brooklyn
Jeff H [Training Director]
JohnS (Sparky)
APPRENTICE INSTRUCTOR:
Anon_e_mous
;-) Sparky
Of the three newbees from SubTalk I only have met one, so I'll be looking forward to seeing you next Saturday ... I'll be at a meeting all morning, but on the proerty in the afternoon, so see you then.
Mr t
Sorry, we do not need hecklers disturbing the Students.
8-)Sparky
Augh come on it's a tradition we have to teese the newbees, at least a little < g >
^^^"PS Sparky, the GG DOES go around the curve at Bedford/Nostrand faster than 2001 at Branford."^^^
Yes, but the curve at Bedford Nostrand on the GG is 90'. What
curve on the GG is similar to Riverside curve at Branford, on a
larger scale, but is 180' opposite?
;-) Sparky
You're correct there. There IS a reverse curve between Queens Plaza and Court Square (Bklyn. bound) but it is not 90 degrees. You got me on that one. ;-)
The curve on the GG that is an S curve but 180' opposite of Riverside
Curve at Branford is between Nassau & Metropolitan\Grand as the line goes from Manhattan Avenue to Union Avenue or visa~verse.
The 180' opposite is you swing right first, then swing left either North or South.
Branfords Riverside Curve you swing left, then right either East or West on a smaller scale though.
;-) Sparky
OK I got you now. The directional orientation and left/right sequence is rotated 90' geographically and 180'sequentially. I knew I'd figure that out...;-)
Well, guess I can put my 2 cents in. Training was great, reminded me how rusty I am and what all the new rules are. From what I can tell the hardest thing for me will be figuring out the signals (which isn't all that tough). Was great to put faces to some more names on here. Too bad I will be at sea until May!!
Steve Loitsch
When early summer comes along they'll be in a pinch for operators when the "regulars" start doing other things, i.e. vacation with the family, etc.
So, take notes & study hard because they'll be glad to put you to work when you get back on dry land.
Thurston,
Third Avenue Rwy has been a regular at Branford for more years then
I'm a member, but never qualified for operations. Daddy Loitch brought
Steve to BERA in a carriage, so I think he knows the drill. Better then YOU or I. >GG<
8-) Sparky
Sparky, thanks for the accolades but you could have left out the carriage thing!!!:) Especially with this crowd. LOL Believe it or not things have changed, especially the signals. My problem is unlearning what I have been taught. Its mostly little things, like I was taught to run with the brake handle in the lap position, but now run in release. And remember to notch up slower. Just a little fine tuning and rust-cleaning.
Steve
When you come back to shore, the weather will be nice and all the cars at BERA will be there waiting for you. Looking forward to seeing everybody again on Saturday.
Did someone mention school car?
You ain't seen nothing until you get broken in on this thing:
Let the foaming begin! She's the right type for me.....
-Stef
Someday, but I've a long way to go before I'll get handle time on that car. But when I do, it'll be EXCELLENT!
It's a nice ride. Then you graduate up to something even bigger and heavier. :)
That moaning, groaning, grunting, snarling, hissing, throbbing juggernaut of a subway car, your baby, 1689.:)
Might be their heaviest car until we can find a way to get that standard to run again. :)
Listen son, IRT cars rule the mighty BERA rails. I might start an empire in which SMEE Cars are the dominating force. SMEE Cars here, SMEE Cars there, SMEE Cars everywhere.... They don't die, they multiply!
LOL!
-Stef
Oh bite me. Heh. I love YOUR toy too ya know, but let's face it. 1689's got a few pounds on ya. :)
@#$%! What did you say laddie?
My car is a lean, mean, fighting machine.
-Stef
Heh. (tap tap) Just checking to see if this PA works. :)
Pity we don't have a two track mainline, I'd race ya. But hey, look at the bright side. If I drool on 1689, then you don't have to break out the mop. Happy endings ALL around. Heh.
Even with just a single line, you could still do a pretty good car chase scene!
-Robert King
Assuming whatever signalling might exist premists two vehicls on the line to follow closely...or use the TVIV.
-Robert king
Branford's a VERY WELL signalled line with a safety record to be proud of. Wouldn't be possible unless the two cars were within inches of each other passing the signals, just like the early days of the IRT. About as close to a race like that as we're going to get would be making faces at each other out the cab window while one of us gets a lineup. :)
A-N-D they're about to add a couple more.
Why, different reason then the TA.
Can you say insurance ... those companys are looking for reasons to raise our rates, to we don't want to give them one !
If it's well signalled, I guess it's time to use the TVIV then if you want to do a subway car chase...
Insurance companies are something, aren't they? My personal experience with them was that all of them - all of them - wanted $5,000/year from me to be insured on the car I'd be driving if I could afford it. The car in question is a 1987 Toyota Camry! Can you imagine what it would be on a new car?!
-Robert King
Certainly *I* wouldn't have a problem with that, I was actually quite impressed with what had been done so far (right down to the punch boxes, NICE touch) and yes, it helps to further enhance the safety aspects that have made Branford a safer place to "work" than the TA. Nothing gives this old motorman more joy than sitting at a red and watching it drop for me. I was always such a cheap date. Heh.
I like to chase the car ahead thru the curves, but soon I won't be able to do that :-(
Mutli car operations at Branford & Warehouse Point aren't anything like the real thing, but they are a little bit of a challange & a pleasent change for the simple back & forth.
Yeah, got those kind of thrills on station time in the TA (59th St in particular) years ago when two trains were allowed to "close up" in motion, as well as keying by on the Brighton right up to the storm door of the train ahead. One moment's lapse of reality though and everybody on both trains gets to grab some floor and shout "ouch!"
Already got my yayas though "closing up" ... I can get by without getting to do that again. I actually found trying to get the whole car to stop at the high level platform MUCH more amusing. At least the TA gives you a few feet of slop. What's the slop coming into that high level there? 1/4 INCH? :)
My car is a lean, mean, fighting machine
Stef: Nice to hear from a good IRT man. We have to remind some of these fellowsthat the Interborough RAPID Transit Company took the RAPID very seriously. Some IRT speed lines are the Lexington from 125 Street southbound to Grand Central, the Broadway Line from 96 to Times Square or the Pelham Line center track between East 177 Street and Soundview.
The BMT gave up their experiment with RAPID transit after 1918 and settled forlow and steady. The INDependent subway was so named because the train came when it wanted to.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Some thoughtful remarks for us all to ponder < g >
Heh. I'm reminded though of Paul Matus' fine article on the 1919 IRT strike with an image on page two of "Trains operate at the convenience of the co." ... I hold no ill will towards the IRT, you couldn't cross a north/south street in the Bronx without hitting your head on an el pillar. :)
Great story (and the picture I refer to) here:
http://www.3drail.com/0301/index.html
6688's a great old girl though ...
Hey, when the R-10s ruled, the A train WAS the quickest way to get to Harlem.
Naw...BRT/BMT rules at BERA! Can't mess wit the big, 'n solid genuine railroad cars from Brooklyn...
Youse lookin' faw a fight or somth'n? :)
"Can't we all just get along?" Actually, I *like* SMEE's ... they're EASY. :)
So my undergraduate coursework would be straight air/safety/K control, while the postgraduate work would be AMUE/SMEE/ME-42. How nice that us railfans have the University of BERA for our baccalaureate education! ;-)
Wait until you're asked to change the oil. :)
That's CI Peter's job.:)
Poor boy's already overworked ... a dab here, a schmear here ... no biggie. :)
Actually it's a community college where you get a associates degree, i.e. community of associates < g >
Yeah! Let's rock.... C'mon, put up your dukes! I might cold cock you with my brake handle. It's a pretty heavy tool, you know?
Brooklyn Cars? What are those?
-Stef
Ya, well I'll have to introduce you to the receiving end of a third rail slipper! :)
Fix the spring under the parking brake lever on 1689 and we can demonstrate the old IND "roto-slap." :)
Then there's the electric brake plug - never mind.
You haven't DONE the TA shuffle until you've been whacked in the pants by an errant handbrake roto-twirl. I'm seeing stars and talking five octaves higher just THINKING about it. :(
Ouch!! That's worse than breathing helium!:)
If you ever rode an Arnine and heard that puppy clanking against its post along the ride, imagine what a well-wound spring could do. They had a nasty habit of "kicking" when they unsprung which is yet another reason why Branford disabled them in the name of safety ...
That was why the rule in the TA was "keep your head down and ALWAYS wear your cup." :)
^^^"They had a nasty habit of "kicking" when they unsprung which is yet another reason why Branford disabled them in the name of safety ..."^^^
Yes, they are disarmed on the air brake cars, but those "armstrong's"
do a twirl if not properly released.
Also had an occasion on an air equipped car and teens, where they
wound it up and didn't kick the lock and when I released and watched
the goose neck spin. Needed a change of my BVDs after that experience. >GG<
8-) Sparky
Hahahaha ... one of the things I *loathed* about Arnine put-ins at oh-dark-hundred (you SAW me at the Twin Pines, you could SPOT how I am with "good morning" and Connecticut is a "gun? what gun? state like up here) was having to walk the damned train KNOWING that the rule was "at least three applied" and trying to guess which one was loaded. :)
I was lucky though - only had four kick back on me as a motorman and they missed EVERY time. *WHEW!* ... them damned SMEEs ... lucky phuckers had them outside the storm door and they were jack-cranks instead of what WE had ... how COULD you go wrong and become a Soprano without benefit of obscenities? But yeah, for anyone who dislikes my "coarseness" from time to time, once upon a time, the term "motorMAN" applied, whatever your gland. Running the oldies WAS a serious gig. For WHOMEVER climbed up the grabirons in the morning and keyed the storm door to hit the breakers and walk the beech ...
Branford was FUN ... it was railroading without the bullskirt ... I cannnot TELL YOU how MUCH I appreciated an arnine without the qwap ...
And I though for sure you'd get all misty-eyed when you saw 1689.:)
I know that old timer was just as happy to see you, though.
Yeah, it was nice having an Arnine in my hands again. :)
Speaking of heavy weights. Is it an Interurban or is it a Rapid Transit vehicle?
Just as comfortable running under wire with a pole or from a third rail shoe.
And heaviest vehicle on the property. Chicago, North Shore & Milwaukee #709
tops the scale at 105,000#, BMT 2775 = 96,320# and IND 1689 = 84,396#.
CNS&M 709 under wire from Milwaukee to Northern Suburbs of Chicago and
then via the L and third rail thru the loop. Speedy cuses also. >GG<
8-) Sparky
Seashore has three of them... 420 and 755 (passenger coaches) and 415 (dining car). I recall taking the 3-car train out about a dozen years ago. Today, we only run one at a time (420 is in the best shape) due to power considerations.
I've been at Seashore on one or two of those occasions, when the North Shore train would roll and the radio squealed to pull the poles on everything else, because the North Shore Train was going to operate. Also have rode 420 on occasion with either George Burdick or Maury Cott at the controls.
8-) Sparky
Like running a dual-quad V8.:)
Of course, had Shoreline managed to acquire a Big Orange South Shore car, that would have topped the charts weight-wise. As delivered, those hulks weighed 60 tons, and the ones that were lengthened during and after WWII tipped the scales at 75 tons. Even 2775 wouldn't stand a chance.
"... Big Orange South Shore car ... tipped the scales at 75 tons. Even 2775 wouldn't stand a chance."
And neither would the tressels :-(
We gotta DO something about that. I won't be satisfied until I pave new ruts on BOTH ends of the railroad. To NEW Haven and back! :)
Many have wished for the same, but I think we're locked in :-(
Unless we set up a ext. of the museum in the NH RxR yard ... problem is the O/H there would melt our trolley poles :-(
Would give a whole new meaning to Hi-V < grin >
Heh. Don't mind me and my delusions of grandeur, bro ... but yeah, while others may dream of where the N train may go tomorrow, to me where Branford's toys go is serious to the same insane nth degree. I *HAVE* 1.050 MEGAWATTS of substation, only TOO willing to expand that to 3.1 MW if only someone wanted to plug in, 8 miles of AVAILABLE track one way, 5 miles the other way BEGGING, "give me you arnines, your streetcars, your whole collection, ALL of them may draw power SIMULTANEOULSY INCLUDING YOUR B&O RELIC at the SAME TIME and as long as you don't collide, all will continue to move. :)
OK Kevin, STEP AWAY FROM THE KEG! Heh.
Kevin,
I always have a great deal of difficult understanding exactly
what you are saying in your posts!
Are you saying that you personally own a 1 MW 600 VDC substation?
We've got a big Niagara Mohawk substation on the edge of the property up here with plenty of "spare capacity" ... sorry for the confusion there. What I was saying is there's plenty of spare "watts for tots" here, more than sufficient to run an electric railway.
Kev is just itching to take a 10-car train of R-1/9s signed up as a D out for a nice spin on that stretch of track. Green signals all the way, no %$#@$@$ timers, controller pegged against the brass and the bull and pinion gears wailing away at A-440.
Nor the track, I suppose.:)
Of course, a Triplex is still heavier than a lengthened Big Orange car.
^^^"had Shoreline managed to acquire a Big Orange South Shore car"^^^
South Shore is mainline railroading, even if it came from an Interurban Traction Empire. >GG<
8-)~ Sparky
Now you KNOW you shouldn't have "leaked" that tidbit ... Unca Selkirk's handle fingers are twitching already ... got to insert key, push floor mushroom, full parallel or whatever we can get. You already know my passion for tons of fast moving metal ... now I *gotta* get my mitts on that even if I have to move it with a track crowbar. :)
I _wannit!_
^^^"I _wannit!_"^^^ No can have_it. It's OOS since the Northeaster
of December '93, when most of the property was under water. It has
salt water damaged motors, plus other ailments that have it sidelined.
8-( Sparky
Dang! Yeah, brine and copper don't get along well. Sorry to hear that. It's not like you can hit the JC Whitney catalog and order replacement trucks. :(
Well, at least 1689 was unscathed.
I remember seeing 709 running during a Trolley Parade in 1980. Took a picture of it, too. Now all I have to do is find it.
"Is it an Interurban or is it a Rapid Transit vehicle?"
That's an interesting question. In general, I would say that the basic difference between interurbans and rapid transit cars is the ability to load at street level. There are very, very few rapid transit cars really designed for street-level loading (the P&W "Strafford" cars among them, although they were later rebuilt without the feature), however all interurbans - right up to the present-day South Shore Sumitomo cars - are designed with steps so that they can load at street level.
Frank Hicks
At least the present South Shore cars have center doors - something their Big Orange predecessors didn't have. And they open only at high-level platforms.
"At least the present South Shore cars have center doors - something their Big Orange predecessors didn't have. And they open only at high-level platforms."
At least we hope so. "Watch that first step - it's a doozy!"
One thing I was going to mention was the P&W Bullet car... William Middleton considers these cars interurbans, as evidenced by the fact that they got part of a chapter in his excellent "Traction Classics: The Interurbans: Extra Fast and Extra Fare" book, but I still think that they're rapid transit cars because they don't have steps. The FJ&G cars, on the other hand, do belong in that book...
...I'm just pretty much talking to myself at this point, right? :-)
Frank Hicks
Almost... I'm still in the audience :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
^^^""At least the present South Shore cars have center doors - something their Big Orange predecessors didn't have. And they open only at high-level platforms."^^^
I wonder where they ever conceived such a thought of center doors
on high level platforms only? Why didn't the BRT operate vehicles
with such an arrangement to Coney Island? And similar to the
North Shore Cars, Overhead or Third Rail!!! >GG<
8-) Sparky
That's a good question.
Well, the Bullets when they ran in Philly were in a suburb enviorment compaired to apartments & such in Brooklyn, Queens, etc. Route 100 is still like that ... sounds like a interurban operation even with all high platforms ????
"Well, the Bullets when they ran in Philly were in a suburb enviorment compaired to apartments & such in Brooklyn, Queens, etc. Route 100 is still like that ... sounds like a interurban operation even with all high platforms ????"
I agree that the P&W as a route is very interurban-like. There are other rapid transit routes that resemble interurbans - the Westchester Branch on the Chicago Rapid Transit, for instance, as well as the Skokie Swift (which really WAS an interurban route, or part of it anyway). However, my classification of the P&W Bullets as rapid transit cars has nothing to do with the route they ran on and everything to do with the design of the cars themselves. The Westchester and Skokie branches here in Chicago may have been interurban lines, but they were still operated with cars that were undeniably in the "rapid transit car" category. And to bring this back squarely on-topic... I don't know the NY system very well - any lines in NY (besides SIRT, already mentioned) you can think of that fit into this category? Jeff mentioned that there were some in the early days of the BRT.
Frank Hicks
Way back then Jeff is right the elevated cars had to switch from 3rd rail to trolley poles, and the car exits were similar to old LIRR, i.e. fliped up the platform to expose the steps. That line also went across some streets.
Early on (once they converted from steam to electricty) most of the system either burred the lines or put them up in the air. You also had some private ROW/cuts.
But back to the theme of this tread: rt to me means with in the city, interurban, to me, means between large cities.
So, the Philly & Chicago lines we've been sighting as examples would be interurban. Now what do you call them when they upgrade the line by adding high platforms ? A fine line to be sure.
Lets take another example: as more & more folks use M-N/LIRR what do you call them ... heavy rail, commuter, interurban, mass transit ?
Maybe interurban is a obsolete term, like "trolley" vs. "LRV" ?
How about a fly in the hand cream ... BRT, i.e. Bus Rapid Transit.
^^^"How about a fly in the hand cream ... BRT, i.e. Bus Rapid Transit"^^^
BLASPHEMY, but what you spect from a bus company employee? Excommunication from SubTalk ... send him to BusTalk forever!!!, better yet > "Riders Diaries". >GG<
8-) Sparky
HEY! I object! I understand that Unca Thurston's sucked in WAY too much bus exhaust, but hey ... he's fun to have around. Can I KEEP him? Huh huh huh? I promise to feed and water him EVERY day, and walk him, and hug him and keep him ... well, maybe OUTSIDE. :)
Well, if we don't excommunicate him from SubTalk, how about giving
him six months at CDTA instead of QST? Then you can care & feed him.
>GG<
8-) Sparky
Heh. I don't think he'd be mighty impressed with CDTA, but SHORE! We'll be happy to take him in. :)
Well, if your gonna water him every day, you should be warned that his brand of 'water' is Pabts Blue Ribbon. LOL!
He'll come back a refined man then ... you can get REAL firewater up here. :)
That was my Grandpa who wanted to know "what'll you have ..."
I'm a Shaffer man because the kids won't drink it < g >
They still MAKE that swill? :)
Got a keg of Warsteiner with your name on it, bro.
Yep, they still do. I thought Schaffer was discontinued years ago then was shocked recently to find it on the shelves of my local Pathmark. And if you are going "to have more than one..."
Gotta be Stroh's buying up brand names. I know both breweries (with their ORIGINAL microbes) are long gone. One of the nicer things about being so close to Canada up here is that the local beer distributor carries over 450 brands of beer. Takes more than a year to get around to drinking the same swill again. And some of them, though pricey, are VERY good. :)
Just don't name him George.:)
Now now Sparky !
The BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) concept has for one of it's goals to create private ROW for buses & high platforms that C-A-N lead to LRV replacing the bus W-H-E-N the city can come up with the money, i.e. it's a intrim step along the way ... at least it can be.
Therefore this was another of my on-topic posts !
^^^"Therefore this was another of my on-topic posts!"^^^
It may be on-topic on "BusTalk", this is the electrically powered
division and BRT is still Brooklyn Rapid Transit, no matter what
"Bean Town" calls the Silver Line. So it's off topic here, till
if & when they convert it to steel wheels. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
I'd agree with your definition. What was the original
question? Is an IND subway car an interurban? Ahem, no,
not in anyone's wildest fantasies.
Middleton's Interurban book is very, very broad in what it
includes. It lists the NY, Westchester & Boston. How that
can be viewed as anything other than an over-engineered
division of the NHRR is beyond me.
Our Staten Island Rapid Transit car certainly falls on the
perimeter of 'rapid transit' Cars were often run single-unit,
and some of the stations were little more than makeshift loading
platforms. Still, no street loading.
The BRT gate cars _did_ do both high-level and street-level boarding
early in their careers (before approx 1922), with trolley poles and
third rail shoes. They also operated inter-URBAN in going
from Manhattan to Brooklyn (although by the time electric cars
were operating on this route, the two cities had been merged).
They started at a high-level elevated operation, then crossed
the lightly-populated areas of Brooklyn on the surface, finally
arriving at their popular destination through a dedicated, high-level
terminal facility. Yet, I've never heard of this operation called
an interurban.
Sparky,
the North Shore car isn't the heaviest thing on BERA rails.
SBK #4 is 114,000 lbs. Cornwall #12 ties 709 at 105,000 lbs.
Jeff,
But 709 is the heaviest vehicle on BERA rails that could be used for
passenger operations. The others are engines or locomotives? What's
PC for those electric power units in the 21th Century? >GG<
8-) Sparky
Droids. :)
(dreaded verbosity on the air - woohoo!)
The railroads seem to use either term, locomotive or engine. I've seen it written both ways on train orders.
Technically, the locomotive is the self-propelled piece of equipment that can move under its own power -- the power being the engine inside the hood (which is also called, for confusion's sake, the "prime mover").
"But 709 is the heaviest vehicle on BERA rails that could be used for
passenger operations. The others are engines or locomotives?"
Any standard electric locomotive is not an engine per se because it does not have an actual engine in it - it has no capacity to take solid fuel of any sort and convert it into tractive effort (as a steam engine or diesel does), which is what a true engine does. An electric locomotive can only take electric power already generated and convert that into tractive effort using traction motors. This is why operators of electric cars were called "motormen" and not "engineers" - there were no engines in the equipment they were running, only motors.
Frank Hicks
P.S. My apologies for not being Jeff! :-)
Picky picky picky ... just to let ya know though, THIS "motorman" appreciates the appreciation as to what the job is. AND enjoy your "Selkirk didn't know that" moments as well. :)
Frank,
With all the terminology that's now incorrect, you don't know what
to call them or the persons operating them. Motormen are now
Train Operators, I've also heard the phrase Subway Drivers.
A good friend who has 25+ at MNRR and is qualified for the Gennies,
but can't pick his hours & days off with same, when operating the
MUs calls them "kiddie cars".
But, it's always interesting explaining the difference between
Motorman, Operator or Conductor when the parents explain what you are at the Museum. Or better yet, why a trolley doesn't go Choo Choo. This board goes so OT so often, you just go with the flow. >GG<
8-) Sparky
Again I find myself agreeing 100%, and I'm not sure any
apology is needed :)
A locomotive is a railway vehicle that produces tractive effort
to move itself and other cars.
An engine is a thermodynamic device to convert heat energy into
mechanical energy.
In an electric railway, the engine is stationary at the powerplant.
Technically, the engine is only the equipment that receives
heat energy, in the form of steam from the boilers, and converts
it to mechanical energy to drive the generators or alternators.
Both reciprocating engines ("Corliss" style) and steam turbines
were used. Systems that used hydropower technically did not
have engines.
On a steam locomotive, the engine is that portion of the machinery
that converts steam to motion, e.g. the cylinders, connecting
rods, steam reverser, etc. The boiler makes the energy.
The functions of the engine and locomotive are inseparable
and therefore those terms are used interchangably.
On a diesel locomotive, the engine is the prime mover, i.e. the
big hot thing that burns diesel fuel and creates mechanical energy
to turn the generator/alternator. To talk of the entire vehicle
as "the engine" is, I believe, misleading. A diesel engine goes
nowhere unless it is part of a locomotive.
Jeff,
Thanks for the lesson. When, I posed the question, I was crunching
your jewels a bit. But it's good to get serious on occasion.
Your excuse is not required, I should apologize to you, but what the hey. This is SubTalk.
See Yaw in about 3 1/2 hours.
8-) Sparky
Hoping to get her looking like that again -- THIS summer!
It's almost time for a Pizza Painting party at BERA!!
We are going to celebrate big time when she's got that red paint on. I propose a formal ceremony with the car coming out of the Quonset and braking the red tape. The 3/4 Ton Crew will wear Tuxedos for the occasion. We could brake a bottle of champagne over the car as was done with the R-27 in 1960. LOL!
But seriously after the worst of work is over, there will be some small items to do.
-Stef
>>>The 3/4 Ton Crew will wear Tuxedos for the occasion.<<<
...and will YOU pay for the rentals....8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
You mean everyone doesn't own one?!?!
But he better buy good champagne :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll toast to that! LOL!
-Stef
Small item, like fix one operating end that is broke...
Feh ... we use the reverser key and mirrors. :)
LOL!
I'll do it, if it hasn't been done already. The weather is getting warmer, I'd like to have the car out and about.
-Stef
That's GRADUATE school car, bro. :)
Did anybody take any pictures of the exercise?
-Robert King
Not that I'm aware of. I wanted to bring a camera, but I didn't know if the instructors would permit that. I'm currently saving my nickels for a camcorder, though, that I hope to have before SubTalk Sunday. I'll find out from the instructors if picture-taking (at appropriate times, not to interfere with training) can be allowed. :-)
I'll find out from the instructors if picture-taking (at appropriate times, not to interfere with training) can be allowed. :-)
Don't see why not, but I'll leave the final say on that up to the more senior members of the instructional crew.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No problem. Make sure you have your photo permit. Go over
to Willoughby St. and see Sybil :)
Just as long as them danged terrorists don't get to see the "big board" ... no flashes, please - except on the top of the car. :)
How would these cars be defined, Locs, engines, Interurbans, Commuters or what?
Wouldn't their operating environment as well as their design cross some of the grey areas of defination.
Maybe a little soften of the edges should be permitted in the vast arena of vehicles and service needs of rail trafficing.
Then you have Laws and regulations imposed by the Fed and States and local governments.
The Steamtown Trolley museum is running stock on the Laural Line.
Are these trolleys now interurbans, or trolleys on an interurban ROW?
If an RDC ran on it would it be an interurban or a commuter? Both?
avid
^^^"The Steamtown Trolley museum is running stock on the Laural Line."^^^
It's the Electric City Trolley Museum, even if it departs at the
Steamtown platform, they are seperate entities and not associated
except by geographical location. Also it's the Laurel Line.
^^^"Are these trolleys now interurbans, or trolleys on an interurban ROW?"^^^
The only car now in service at ECTM, is #76, which was a Philadelphia & West Chester Center Entrance Interurban Car, operating on an Interurban ROW. But the trackage is shared with the Lackawanna & Delaware for freight services. Also the Laurel Line, was unique when operating as it was low level boarding and operated under wire & third rail.
8-) Sparky
Freight is still running on that line? Still?
Thanks for the info.
avid
Yes, there are industrial sidings between the Steamtown Loading
Platform & the North entrance to the tunnel. So its shared trackage
rights. We rode in December 2001, so have not riden #76 thru the tunnel as yet.
Even after the ride on the center entrance, heard a whistle and hung around to see where it would go. Caught a 30 car movement on video with a CP engine right thru the Steamtown Platforms. >GG<
8-) Sparky
But the trackage is shared with the Lackawanna & Delaware for freight services.
It's the Delaware Lackawanna.
And that trolley museum would be THE BEST PLACE for subway cars on account of their MILE LONG tunnel! I went on a private charter of #76 last Fall, and going nb on the way back to he loading platform, the conductor told the operator to let her rip. That trolley got up to a good speed before slowing down for the exit curve. I would SO love to see a Redbird or two dashing through that tunnel. It would be unbelievable!
---Brian
Brain,
Thanks for the correction.
8-) Sparky
2 questions:
1. What will be the final assignments of the R62s(with car #s)?
2. Which cars are singles?
I don't know car specifics, but as far as I know for the time being, after all of the new trains are delivered and what not, the 1, 3, 4 and 7 will either have R62, R62A's or a combo of the 2.
The 4 will have mostly R-142, some R-142A, and a few R-62A. It's the only line that will have a mixed fleet (unless some R-33's are retained to fill service requirements).
I think the Singles start with 1901 and run up to 2159. I call them "Years of Our Lives" cars.
wayne
Is 1511-1515 an R62 set? This has yellow labels under its number plate. What does the yellow stand for? The 7th Av. lines have red underneath and the 7 line, purple. I distinctively remember this because this was the first set that crept up the n/b platform at Bowling Green on a dim, Saturday of 9-15-01, when the impact of 9/11 was at large. Also, the first time I rode a 7--- series of the R142A at Brooklyn Bridge on the 6. (We transferred from this 4 to the 6)
Questions (both in reference to 9/11/01):
1) When did NY open its bridges and tunnels again into and out of Manhattan?
2) How did the automobiles turn back after they closed all connections into Manhattan?
I don't know why 1511-1515 have yellow stickers, but these cars are indeed R62's.
Red labels are on the 1/9.
Blue labels are on the 3 and shuttle.
Orange labels are on the 4.
Yellow labels used to be on the 6 -- now there are some on the 3.
Purple labels are on the 7.
1901-1908, 1910-2155 are the R62A Singles-pieces of garbage.
#9708 7 Flushing Local
Are the linked R62A's pieces of garbage too?
ALL R 62As on the 7 line are garbage.........
Do you think are all R62As on the 1, 3 and 42nd Street Shuttle garbage too?
ALL R62As and R142/R142As are complete garbage. I hate those clunk-a-junk trains. R62As are very unsafe to be on the road. I was a standee on 1 of those bombajunks and almost got whiplash because of the extreme heavy braking. And they're too damn small. They're cattle cars!!!
REDBIRDS RULE AND ALWAYS WILL RULE!!! ENOUGH SAID!!!
#9768 7 Flushing Express
"And they're too damn small."
R-62A and R-142/142A cars are exactly the same size as Redbirds.
David
Nope-seats are smaller on the R62/R62A than that on the RedBirds.
R142/R142As seats seem to be the same but they just seem smaller than the RedBirds. REDBIRDS STILL RULE!
ENOUGH SAID!
#9469 7 Flushing Local
The comment I responded to seemed to refer to the size of cars in one group vs. the size of the cars in another group. Cars in both groups are exactly the same size. As to the seats, it's a matter of bucket vs. flat.
David
STOP...you're making too much sense.
Peace,
ANDEE
Go look at some MDBF stats before you make that statement. Hope you got a chance to ride a Redbird on the 2 or 5 during rush hours in the summers of past years. 'Cause with no A/C and everyone jammed up against each other, it made for some pretty packed trains, oh you know, like CATTLE CARS!
I sure did and I still hate those Cattle Car R142/R142A. I don't care about any MBDF.
They should send all of those crappy R142/R142A back to where they came from. THEY SUCK! What other trains that you know pull apart in service?
REDBIRDS RULE AND ALWAYS WILL RULE!!!
#8986 2 7 Ave Express
You really SHOULD seek help, just my opinion.
Peace,
ANDEE
Agreed. I don't get why people are so intent on keeping these trains in service when they're time is almost up. And MTA MCI 102-DL3 #1979, please don't tell me Redbirds can last 10 more years.
Some people just really can't let go can they? =\
I said by year's end the redbirds will be gone forever except the ones that will be used for work service. I will get my rides and pics while I can.
And FYI some redbirds look like they can last much longer but MOST of them NO-especially the ones on the 7.
The 2 redbird cars that looked beyond horrible were R33 9216 and 9217. But they're gone now so I have no complaints.
#9138 5 Lexington Ave Bronx Thru Express
this is the real deal here folks a real nyc subway car pic below!
YEA THE REAL THING !!
Good pic!
The redbirds are still my favorite car on the IRT (the R32, R46, R68, and R143 are my favorite on the IND BMT) every time I get a R62 on the Flushing I feel disapointed.
i know just how you feel
i prefer the more traditional types of rolling stock too ....
Redbirds are going - DEAL WITH IT! R142s are here to stay! HA!
Whatever! I still hate those cars with a passion!
#1979 1 7 Ave Local
join my redbird msn group
DO NOT SWEAT THESE FOOLS ON THE BOAD !!
join ..........paste belkow into your url .........
http://groups.msn.com/Redbirds
.........................
http://groups.msn.com/Redbirds
>>> #1979 1 7 Ave Local <<<
I thought you hated R62/R62As too.
1979 is my birthyear. R62s are better than the R62A. R62A need some braking remodifications and they would be ok in my book. R62 I have no problem with those whatsoever.
#1555 4 Lexington Ave Express
#1979 7 Flushing Local
I sure did and I still hate those Cattle Car R142/R142A. I don't care about any MBDF.
They should send all of those crappy R142/R142A back to where they came from. THEY SUCK! What other trains that you know pull apart in service?
REDBIRDS RULE AND ALWAYS WILL RULE!!!
#8986 2 7 Ave Express
All classes of TA cars have had pullaparts from wooden el cars to your beloved dead birds came apart at one time or another. So what? Freight trains, the Titanic, tractor trailers, articulated joints in City Buses, anything bolted, welded, riveted, glued, bonded, even using bondo has separated. From Atlantic Avenue to the Atlantic Ocean these are history in the making. I wish they'd make history a little sooner. Redbird MDBF: May Develop Bottom Feeders
the bottom feeders are those who refuse to keep at least
.........ONE MUSEUM TRAIN .........
at least 2 sets of the best redbirds for future museum runs !!!!
( like the set of low-vs and the D triplexes
should have kept a 10 car set of r-1s and r - 9 s !!!!!!!!!
"All classes of TA cars have had pullaparts from wooden el cars to your beloved dead birds came apart at one time or another."
The R-44's had a pull apart problem in the late '70's IIRC. One happened on the Brighton Line where they were assigned back then.
Bill "Newkirk"
My favorite R44 pull apart story was on the A line at Nostrand Ave. Train makes a 10 car stop, doors don't open. T/O sees people running from the rear towards the front. He wonders what's going on! Some passenger tells him he only had 2 cars! Somewhere between there and Utica Ave., the train pulled apart 2x6. Fortunately the 6 cars went into emergency. The other 2 cars should have done the same but didn't.
join my redbird msn group
DO NOT SWEAT THESE FOOLS ON THE BOAD !!
join ..........paste belkow into your url .........
http://groups.msn.com/Redbirds
.........................
http://groups.msn.com/Redbirds
join my redbird msn group
DO NOT SWEAT THESE FOOLS ON THIS BOARD !!
join ..........paste belkow into your url .........
http://groups.msn.com/Redbirds
.........................
http://groups.msn.com/Redbirds
It looks like I found the official 'Stupid Post of The Day.' :)
Whatever-REDBIRDS WILL GET THEIR REVENGE!!! TRUST ME!!!
#9300 4 Lexington Ave Express
Oh Lord, get a life. The RUSTbirds are dead . . . dead . . . DEAD.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thye're still alive and well on the 4 and 7. So what do you have to say now?
#9293 4 Lexington Ave Express
#9542 7 Flushing Express
Look here SUBWAYSURF-I'd like to ask you something: Have you got a look at the R142/R142As recently? Some of them look like they're 35-40 years old and they have body rot on them already especially the ones on the 4. They look sound and ride horrible for cars that are just about a year old.
At least the Redbirds are 35-40 years old and they do look their age. I agree with you that they are a dying breed. But compare them to the new subway cars we have, the redbirds look and run much better than our high tech cars. If you want to make them look newer the least they can do is maintain them and make them look cleaner.
I'm not arguing with you, I'm just trying to make a point that the way they look now, they'll be lucky to last 5 years.
In fact, I'll tell you that I rode 7671 last week on the 4. Why? IDK! But I did. Brakes were shot-car was extremely filthy and there were rot marks on it. Now this 5 car set came in only last year. Why does it look this bad already?
They can be a great addition to our subway fleet but only if they were maintained better than they are now-then I will accept the R142/R142As. Other than that I will only accept RedBirds as the best cars in the IRT Division until they're all gone.
#8888 4 Lexington Ave Express
#9543 7 Flushing Local
There is no rot on the 142's. The stains are not rust and they handle much better than the redbirds. Once winter is over and the car washes are fully back in business you will see the difference.
Well what else could it be? There are different colored streaks down the side of the cars and it is brown. So what could it be?
Hmmmm?
#8834 5 Lexington Ave Bronx Thru Express
Look at previous posts on the composition of the residue on the cars
its called " R-142 RUST - ROT " .....................lol !
Well what else could it be? There are brown colored streaks down the side of the cars. So what could it be?
Hmmmm?
#8834 5 Lexington Ave Bronx Thru Express
Could it be, oh I don't know - dirt?
lol..i guess we're on the same page
dirt/grime..i saw it too..when it rains the dirt runs down the side and dries up.
Dirt is everywhere in the system...EVEN ON REDBIRDS! Oh but you don't seem to whine about that...
Dirt.
RIGHT ON ..........well said .............!!
[Whatever-REDBIRDS WILL GET THEIR REVENGE!!! TRUST ME!!!]
The "Redbirds" are inanimate hunks of metal, many of which are resting/rusting in peace underwater. They can't "get their revenge" - unless all that rust causes the fish to mutate into three-eyed railfans.
Whatever-REDBIRDS WILL GET THEIR REVENGE!!! TRUST ME!!!
In the Atlantic. :)
I'm trembling with fear.
"Whatever-REDBIRDS WILL GET THEIR REVENGE!!! TRUST ME!!!"
From the bottom of the Atantic Ocean ?
Bill "Newkirk"
i take the approach that the r-142s "R" 'breakin down already'.!!
brand new falling apart breakin' down ........
lol!
every train has initial teething problems. This doesnt seem to be half as bas as what I heard the R40 Slants went through. Some cars seemed to have fewer problems than others. The R143s actually passed their 30-day test in 30 days!
They cheated. At least one of those days, the train was running around anonymous -- not only were the announcements not working, neither were any of the signs. That's not the end of the world on a line that runs on dedicated trackage, but eventually R-143's will be running on the M (during the week), and an anonymous train at DeKalb is asking for trouble.
It was clear from posts here that NYCT really, really wanted that train to pass its 30-day test right away. I don't disagree with that desire at all, but standards were apparently lowered to force the train to pass, and I don't think that was a good idea.
What teething problems did the R-40's go through? I haven't heard any stories, aside from safety concerns between cars.
They had a lot of problems with those fiberglass fronts cracking.
I would tend to agree.
Peace,
ANDEE
yeah and thats what the riders though of the R12 thru 36 cars when they first came in.I PERSONALY MISS THE OLD R1/9 CARS,due to the fact I rode them most in my childhood...the rattan seats were comfortable and they were still fast in their old age.I also like the ''new cars'',because i just like em... they give good service,look good,and are fast....Look,the Redbirds did their jobs for 40 years,[R29/33/36]AND ITS TIME FOR THEM TO GO.there's nothing you or anyone else can do to change that. the 142/142a are here for the next 40 years or so,and the R62/62A untill 2020. so you dont have to like them...but you gotta ride'em,unless you buy a car....so stop this foolishness and grow up.
.........you aint no fun at all....................!
yeah I know....Believe me.. I like the post war stuff too... I grew up riding them,mostly on the Broadway/Jamaica line,where the R1/9 ruled untill 1977,and my father use to be a T.O years ago out of Coney Island[N Train and a few others],so I was fairly use to the ''old cars''.My Pop's was there when the R32's first came to NYC!!He was the one who told me all about ''those new fangled tincans''that start up by themselves[R44'S]AND CATCH FIRE FOR NO REASON[LOL]!!!!So on Saturdays when I use to ride with him,I got to see lots of trains...but my favorite of all time>>>>R27/30. Keep me informed on the progress of the Gold line....
oh yes the gold line !!
go to my webshots photo site paste this in ...
************************
http://community.webshots.com/user/salaamallah
*******************************
click on diesel trainz .....
*******
one shot of the gold line yards on the los angeles river
with the amtrak superliner blasting by
the yard is full of the p 2000 light rail fleet ready to run
and be tested !!
i agree with you on the pre world war 2 fleet wish i could have
enjoyed the pe cars here and that they would have never been
removed !
so i am a member of the orange empire museum here in peris ca.
and enjoy them on the museum grounds !!
my memories of the r 1 - 9 fleet was the ultimate experence
all railfan window all the time
the pre world war 2 cars were buit the best to me !
loved how they sounded too !!
i always tried to get to the front on those cars,and when i was with my dad.. I HAD TO STAND BY HIS CAB..or sit by it...
yea .........................sigh ..........!
Why? Only becasue you like Redbirds?
this is the real deal here folks a real nyc subway car pic below!
YEA THE REAL THING !! BUILT SO MUCH BETTER !!
WHAT!? Are you mad or what!? The R62A singles have RF window's you dimwhit!They are very good,way better than those crappy Redbird's! Face it man,those deadbirds have gotta go.40 years of service is good enough.It's time for the R142/142A's to step in and take over where they left off.If you love the Redbird's so much,go live with em in the Deleware River along with all the pretty fishies.But never say you hate a car class,that's an insult.I'm a buff just like everyone else here but....IMO,that's taking it to far.You'd never hear me say I hate a car type,just maybe some things that can be done to improve them.But hate them?No way.That's just plain wrong.
1901-1908, 1910-2155 are the R62A Singles-pieces of garbage.
#9708 7 Flushing Local
Care to explain why? By far, the 7's Redbirds are in need for replacement and the R62A IMO does just fine.
Change, no matter how inevitable, is hard for some people.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Well, those people may need to try changing themselves.
---MTA MCI 102-DL3 #1979 -----
dont sweat these fools here join my msn group " redbirds "
and post your redbird pics there !!
******************************************
http://groups.msn.com/Redbirds
**************************************
paste this in your url click on join in and lets talk bout this !
Couldn't answer the first one. or actually be specific. my guess is that they will float all around the IRT at some point.
As for still single R62A's, you can find them on the 3 train and the 42 Street Shuttle. Sadly, I don't have actual car numbers. All Kawasaki R62's are 5 car linked with the exception of the cars destroyed in the Union Square derailment.
What I am trying to get is the exact car #s that will be on the 1, 4, and 7 trains(R62As only), and what configuration they will be in(5 car sets, or singles)
Isn't the 7's sets 2 5-car sets and 1 single?
From what I've seen, its one 5-car set and 6 singles.
Damn the 7's longer platforms...
Otherwise one of the cars would be isolated, with no way for passengers to move to a different car, unless the transverse cabs were folded up.
The 4 will have about 10 single R62A's from the 3 for 42nd St. Shuttle service, and the 3 will get all of 4's R62's. The 1/9 will retain its R62A's, while the 7 will replace all of its Redbirds with the single, and 5 car linked R62A's meaning that the 4 will have R62A/142/142A for its services.
1511-1515 have orange stickers-not yellow. They will soon be blue as they will make their move over to the #3.
#1515 4 Lexington Ave Express
As planned:
Quantitative totals are 365 on the 1, 45 on the 4, 404 on the 7 and 10 on the S. Fleet total is 824 (1909 is retired).
The single cars are 1901-1908 and 1910-2155 (254 total). Cars ending in 0, 1 , 5 and 6 between 1901 and 1965, except for 1905 and 1910, have a full-width cab at one end for S OPTO.
Extrapalation would be necessary to figure out the future assignments, but the #1 cars will definitely be 5-car sets; the 7 will be a mix and the 4/S likely just single units.
We could specualte that the 1 will get 1856-1900 and 2156-2475. That would put all the other unitized cars on the 7, namely 1651-1855 (205). Based on the pattern so far, we could also anticipate the last 199 non-cab singles going to the 7 (1952-1954, 1957-1959, 1962-1964 and 1966-2155). That would leave 1901-1908, 1910-1951, 1955, 1956, 1960 1961 and 1965 for the 4/S.
Time will tell.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Thanks
I saw 1956 on the S last fall, fast asleep on Track 4. Took a picture of it - that's my birth year.
Ah, NYCSubway doesn't have any pictures of carsd 1980's to 1990's... Where are they today?
I have a photo of 1983 that I can scan.
Rode 1986 over the Thanksgiving weekend. Look on the 3 and Times Square shuttle. Some of them were on the 1 after 9/11. They all have blue stickers.
Sure they do. Look in the Car Roster under R38, R40. They definately have a few shots in the '80s and the '90s.
On the other hand, they don't have interior shots of the color schemes from the 1980s-graffiti and all.
If you read other correlating posts, I meant R62A's. Nice try anyway.
Oh, sorry.
I saw #1994 and #1998 on the #3 today.
wayne
One of Randy's story wound up as a one page article in April's Trains Magazine. It's the one on the track walkers and the "hole" (river tunnels).
Seems Trains is slowly realizing that subway are Trains too!
Seems Trains is slowly realizing that subway are Trains too!
If somebody wnats to write the articles, they'll consider them for publication. If nobody writes them, the cannot.
Elias
David P Morgan drew the line as Trains won't cover streetcars and urban mass transit. It seems the new team is willing to accept one or two subway articles.
How much of Fallen Flags can you cover in the current Trains? Trains now covers the Fallen Flags in Classic Trains (that is to say Fallen Flags from pre-Penn Central (or is it Conrail)).
Print magazines are becoming more and more irrelevant with time - and their subscription bases continue to shrink. In the electronics realm, I've seen five magazines I've subscribed to shrink down to one, and that LAST remaining publisher, Gernsback Publications just folded shop.
Adapt or die ... seems the "Trains" folks have answered the cluephone and have seen that there might be a few dozen subscribers they can get by expanding their base a little. This should be ENCOURAGED ... who knows? Maybe THEY might put a shovel to dirt and look for that ... ummm ... station. :)
Makes sense that Trains mag draws the line when it comes to Street cars and lightrail. Technically they ARE trains, but operational wise are closer to buses (with the exception of some lines that run street cars in coupled units).
Nice! Another notch on Randy's belt. Congrats to him! AND a boost for us subway fans as a mainline train publication finally sees the 'light' (of a Redbird sealed-beam headlight, of course) :)
Traction subjects have usually been the subject of specialized rail publications, not too many in general publications, as opposed to newsletters and magazines of clubs. Examples were Traction & Models and Electriclines.
However, Railroad Model Craftsman ran rapid transit oriented articles in the '60s, and Model Railroader had at least one article a few years later.
And let's not forget Railroad which carried Steve Maguire's excellent column every issue for many years.
To their credit Trains has started running a monthly segment dedicated to urban rail within the past few years. They even had a cover story about NJT, though that's commuter rail, not subway.
Mark
Is it an April Fool joke?
A short article on modeling a subway station (London Underground) and then sealing it up. Only the above the street part shows. A N scale tube stock is shown on the side. Where does one get a N scale London Underground model?
Are you sure it isn't a scale model of (gulp) 76th Street?
--Mark
Wash out your mouth with monkey oil for that one. :)
I forget where, but I have seen such N scale models....perhaps they were home-made, I don't know. (I saw them AGES ago -- it interested me,because I am into N scale myself.)
Do you have to work a lot with a magnifier and miniature implements?
We do... tweezers, 10/0 brushes for painting, modified insulin needles for gluing, and the occasional surgical laser for removing parts from sprues (OK, so I made that last one up... the rest is all true). Z scale is even more fun... ever ballast track with coarsely ground pepper? Mix the desired proportion of light and dark peppercorns before grinding in a hand mill and it produces a good ballast mixture of just the right size particles. Use spray adhesive before laying down the track, then ballast before the adhesive has the chance to dry; seal with hairspray (Aqua Net Ultra Hold works great), let dry for 24 hours, then clean the railhead.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There is a an LT lodelling exhibition at the LT Museum Acton Depot next weekent. I will look for N gauge stock (N gauge buildings are definitely available).
Sounds line an April Fool joke to me. Railway Modeller did something that sounds very similar approx 20 years ago in April.
But for me there was an item of interest that appeared in the April
issue of Model Railroader, of which I am not a regular visitor.
I'm a three rail O gauger. But shown at the Nurenberg Toy Fair
was LGB's entry into the realistic USA Streetcar Market, with
NOPS #962, which still travels the rails of the St. Charles Line.
But, they didn't list a MSRP. It has this Trolleynauts attention.
And the funny thing is it was a sample copy that arrived Saturday
while I was at Branford with School Car and Mrs. Sparky brought it
to my attention. >GG<
8-) Sparky
Just saw an interesting subway scene on "The District" (Ch.2)- looked like a flashback since it was filmed in b/w - supposed to be NYC, station signed up "Times Square", looked more like Newark (with the iron fences), but it obviously was not since it had octagonal pillars and the tilework didn't match - a quick shot of a passing train revealed R62 #1354, and another train pulled in - a mockup obviously, a wannabe R32 or R38, with a cyclops sign "A" in its rear bulkhead (front and center like the current ones) but wearing an brightly illuminated bullet. A peek through the rear window showed a modified axiflo fan. Wonder where they filmed it.
As many episodes of "The District" I've seen, I have never seen one in which the Metro was featured or even briefly shown.
Oops another subway flashback, but nothing to report...
wayne
I taped the episode and ran the scene in slow-mo with the VCR in order to pick up details that I missed in "real-time". The Times Square logo was definitely a mock up, but don't know if it was a studio setup or disguised station. One thing I noticed is that the station looked like a local station with express tracks when the scene showed the R62's. I saw surprised to see a real train with the MTA logo. I couldn't see the route/destination sign too well. The scene with the train pulling away with the A bullet was really bogus and I was disappointed.
Jose
Back in 1994, Union Pacific Railroad was proposing commuter rail service from St. Louis west to Pacific and south to Crystal City, but never went through. Does St. Louis still have plans to bring commuter rail?
"Does St. Louis still have plans to bring commuter rail?"
Not really. Every couple of years someone floats the idea but it dies very quickly.
I just finished watching "The French Connection" on AMC and enjoyed seeing the great scene where Popeye Doyle chases the train on the el. Does anyone know where this scene was filmed and what line that was?
It was filmed along the West End Line in Brooklyn.
Also a part of the scene was filmed under the M line between Forest and Seneca Ave stations. There is a crash into a line of garages, that is Onderdonk Avenue in Ridgewood, under the M train.
The line was the West End line, the station was Bay 50 St., even though the R-42s have "N" end signs. The Pontiac street chase was filmed on location in Brooklyn. During the chase, a woman pushing a baby carriage almost gets slammed by Gene Hackman (who did his own stunt driving, according to "That's Hollywood!"). That part was REAL. The NYPD had closed off the street for the movie, but this lady got around that and crossed anyway. The in-car camera caught her scream (she wasn't hit) and the director thought it was so good he had her sign for it and printed it! No lie! (You can read about it in "New York in the Movies" by King & Lippmann.)
Anyway, the R-42/R-32 collision sequence was accomplished by filming the trains backing away from each other at slow speed, then printed for the movie backwards--at high speed. BTW like all TA cars, the ones in the movie are safety cars. The train should have gone BIE the second the T/O dropped dead. But y'know, suspension of disbelief...;-)
Thanks, JayZee BMT. I appreciate all the background information and, yes, I knew the train would have stopped when the T/O dropped dead.
Thanks again.
Thanks, JayZee BMT. I appreciate all the background information. It's a great scene and, yes, I knew the train would have stopped when the T/O dropped dead.
Thanks again.
The conductor was the actual conductor. The actor who was supposed to play the conductor didn't show up on the day they filmed that particluar scene. Unfortunately, he was uncredited and no one seems to know who he was.
The motorman was a real motorman. The T/A refused to allow an actor to operate a subway train. Apparently they sang a different tune when the original Pelham 1-2-3 was filmed.
If you have the DVD, as I do, you've heard Bill Friedkin's commentary on how many cars they went through in that chase sequence.
I did not know THAT! Cool. Thanks for that info, that's interesting.
The motorman's name was William Coke, who incidentally is credited. You can actually hear the conductor refer to him by name: "Coke, you all right?" Ironically he died of a heart attack while in a crew room, AFAIK.
I thought the T/O fell on top of the deadman, keeping it depressed.
Also, one of the collissions b/t cars was real and unintended with Gene Hackman driving. It was suposted to be a simple straight ahead drive, but some moron pulled out in front of him.
Oh well, it still looked cool.
That's the collision at Stillwell Ave. and 86th St. They kept it in the movie because of the realism.
Also, if you look closely at the train directly above Hackman during that collision, you'll see that it's a train of R-32s instead of the R-42s used in the interior train scenes.
I always thought that the motorman character simply fainted from fear and fright, but did not die. The "bad guy" character had already shot the conductor. He held his gun to the motorman's head, but never fired.
My impression was that the motorman had a heart attack from the fright. I'd have to see that scene again.
The T/O in that scene can be seen to clutch his chest, as if he were having a heart attack. Maybe a "sudden death heart attack"? They DO happen in the real world, so it's plausible that the T/O did drop dead.
Actually my favorite scene in "The French Connection" came in the shootout at the end of the movie when Roy Scheider (the good Dago as detective Russo) gunned down and wasted Tony Lo Bianco (the bad Dago as drugman Sal). I like it when my fellow Italians play good guys but not when they play bad ones. I still cringe when I hear of "The Godfather". To me those types are nothing but a pack of shits.
All subway cars have devices which would have brought the train to a halt if he actually had a heart attack. Even as a kid watching this movie I knew that.
Not necessarily. A number of years ago, 2 R46 cars were destroyed as they rammed the bumper block north of 179 St. because the motorman had a heart attack in the seat and fell forward onto the console holding the dead man in place with the weight of his dead body.
Those R-46s were equipped with the Cineston controller which slid up and down and whose handle rotated when released, unlike other, older cars whose handle is the traditional spring loaded up-to-release type. I wonder if a corpse could fall on a safety handle in such a way as to keep it depressed for an extended time. I think I'll ask my instructors that one at Branford next Saturday...;-)
No need to wait for next Saturday... remember, all but one of your instructors are SubTalkers :-)
On either of the "pure" safety cars in our regular service fleet (Montréal 2001 and Johnston 357), it would theoretically be possible for that to happen. Given the position of the controller handle when it is against the stop in the full parallel position (which we have blocked but which would have been there in regular service), however, I would consider it highly unlikely, as the handle is away from the operator. In any other position, the handle is likely to move, which would make its remaining depressed even more unlikely.
Our other safety car in the regular service fleet, Third Avenue 629, has a very sensitive foot-operated deadman; zero chance there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Cool! I did not know that. Thanks for an interesting answer. See you Saturday.
Well, once you pass your Branford test you MIGHT be able to get some handle time on one of the RT cars...you can practice getting a heart attack at the controls to test out this theory -- but I suspect that you have to be a rather tall and/or chunky corpse to do that :)
That's what I thought, too. But when I have my heart attack, I'll be reading my phone bill. ;-)
I actually have a photo of the master controller out of car #1054, showing that it was in the series position when the train hit the block. That was the old style R-44/R-46 master controller. The operator would slide the andle foward or back to accellerate or brake, while he held the spring-loaded handle turned 90 degrees.
I remember that controller well.
Not necessarilly. On most NYCT cars, the master controller handle requires about 9 Lbs. of force to depress the master controller handle and engage the dead-man's feature. It takes less than 2 Lbs. however to hold it down once depressed. A person collapsing foward onto the handle could easily hold it down.
Which is what happens in the movie. Unless the T/O was hooked into an EKG machine, there is no way the train would know he was dead unless he fell off the handle.
Makes you wonder if the dead man is really necessary. An alerter system is much more effective at guaging operator vigilance. Most models watch if the operator moves the throttle, applies the brake or uses some other systems. If nothing happens on any of the monitored systems, an alerter whistle goes off and the operator must acknowledge else the train goes BIE. On the NYCSubway with its near failsafe triparm and timer system, an alertor vigilance system could replace the deadman device and save on the associated arm/hand fatigue.
Doesn't that make the "dead man's device" pointless?
Not pointless - just not as effective as desirable as a "DEAD MAN'S FEATURE". In an emergency, most operators find it easier to let go of the handle instead of pulling for an emergency brake application.
King & Lippman apparently got it wrong about the woman. That was stunt actress Lora Mitchell, who was interviewed for the Fox Movie Channel docu "Making the Connection" (it's on disc two of the DVD). Mitchell tells of being terrified of Hackman's driving! Also, much of the driving in that chase was by stuntman Bill Hickman.
You sure that stutman wasn't Rich Hackman, Gene's brother? That was the case for Gene Hackman's stunt scenes in his next big film, "The Poseidon Adventure".
AFAIK Hackman did most, if not all, of his own driving in the chase sequence.
In both of the documentaries on the Fox Five Star DVD, Bill HICKMAN is credited for doing much of the stunt driving. In fact, director Friedkin and others claim that they hot-shotted Hickman's portions of the chase - meaning they drove like crazy through traffic and filmed WITHOUT the city's knowledge or approval. It sounds far-fetched, surely...
Hackman did do some of the driving...he was behind the wheel when the car was tagged by the guy in the white sedan, as well as the baby-carriage bit with Lora Mitchell.
The reason that chase is in the movie is producer Philip D'Antoni, who also did "Bullitt". He was hell-bent on topping Steve McQueen's legendary chase, and by the ghost of Augustus Belmont, he DID it!
If anyone is interested, as well as awake enough, the French Connection will be replayed on AMC at midnight here on the east coast.
Any video captures of the scene? I'd like to see some.
How the hell did they tear that "dirty car" down and rip it to shreds, strip down the motor and put it together with no tears and nothing out of place? That part of the movie was pure Bull@#$%.
You need to but the DVD and listen to Bill Friedkin's commentary. He admits that tearing a car apart and putting it back together that quickly (it actually took several hours) is pushing things a bit, but that really did happen. That police garage was fully equipped and had every conceivable spare part on hand. They could have manufactured an automobile.
PS, when I worked at 46, the FDNY shops at Red Square in Sunnyside ( the shop is always surrounded by apparatus parked on the street waiting to be fixed) they had COMPLETE fire engines, in parts and pieces, in stock. They could assemble a spare truck if they had to, and they have home-built specialized pieces in the past. I think the TA's car shops could have built its own cars like Third Avenue did, if they wanted to. Stuff like this IS possible!
That was a REAL police garage BTW. As well, IIRC the head mechanic in the film was indeed a real NYPD Mechanic...
As a matter of fact, he was the actual mechanic who found the heroin in the actual series of events. The late Irv Abrahams. Even Bill Friedkin points out in the commentary that this wasn't an actor.
Let's try this again. Sorry for the typo in my first post.
You need to buy the DVD and listen to Bill Friedkin's commentary. He admits that tearing a car apart and putting it back together that quickly (it actually took several hours) is pushing things a bit, but that really did happen. That police garage was fully equipped and had every conceivable spare part on hand. They could have manufactured an automobile.
Or you can watch it.
Just heard of an idea being floated to allow LIRR/MNRR riders to travel for the price of a token (1.50) from stations within NYC during the off-peak hours. I for one think it's a good idea, what are your thoughts on this plan? Would we need to resurrect some of the closed stations in the city in order to make this float?
wayne
You find a way to connect those 7 abandoned LIRR stations on the LIC line into Manhattan directly and it'll be the best! Even if the subway takes over this line? Question: If there is unification, does the MTA get the right to run subways over railroad or former railroad tracks as it wishes?
My principal plan for the LIC-Lower Montauk branch would be for the LIRR to use it to move passenger trains into a new WTC terminal (moving south from LIC to Ave C in Manhattan)
Another idea (Presuming a new subway line on NORTHERN BOULEVARD connected to either Broadway or to Second Avenue via the 63rd Street Tunnel) would allow the transfer of the Roosevelt Avenue Line to the BMT (Re-route the RR on to it) which would leave the (7) looking for a new route. Enter the Lower Montauk Line. To be used by the subway would require a new elevated structure on the ROW leaving the street tracks available to the LIRR/NYARR for their continued use.
I am looking at a small number of stops mostly near the Expressway, where it may be possible to build some large park-and-ride facilities. This line would follow the LIRR routing to WOODHAVEN BLVD where it would turn south followning the route to the ROCKAWAYS, and replacing the (A) train on that service.
Most of the (7) trains would short-turn at the last Park-and-Ride facility, probably at Woodhaven Boulevard, but adequate service will continue out to the Rockaways. While this alignment would be much longer than the existing route to Flushing, it would have about half as many stations, which would provide for a very quick ride.
If the structure between Woodhaven Boulevard and LIC were four tracks wide, then two of them could still be used by the LIRR for access to the WTC while the other two (physically separated) would carry the (7) train to Times Square.
I shall create a map to this effect and post it on my website sometime in the future.
Elias
Ron provided the link to the Newsday story in the thread on Larry's LIRR-Lower Manhattan plan, while my response is here. To sum it up, a good idea, but some pol a year or so down the line if it's implemented is going to push to expand it to all-day, and that will screw everything up.
Check out these M7 Photos I found on a yahoo group!
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling!
To paraphrase David Greller in "New York City Subway Cars": The artist's conception can be very different than what actually rolls into the station...but way cool photos!
They're not loading for me as this time. Just red X's... Maybe the server is loaded? It is Yahoo! after all...
Ya Maybe, Everybody saw the pics.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
I cant... It seems as if 3 of the 4 who tried cant see them
I have same problem-can't load any of the pics. Please try again.
Thanks.
#7052 LIRR
Me too!
Me three
Same problem here, just the litter red "X's".
If you can't view them, just E-Mail me and I will send the photos, BTW-they are not mines, I found them on LIRR Yahoo Group and thought I would share with all of you to see.
For those who are interested I posted an article that appeared in the 1936 B.M.T. Monthly about the PCC Car on my site - enjoy!
Isn't it ironic that they show pictures of Fiorello LaGuardia driving the PCC? Wasn't it he who wanted to get rid of all the trolleys?
Yes, and he worked to make certain the BMT couldn't get its order of 500 PCC cars. If they had been delivered, the entire picture of transit in NYC and the nation might have been different.
Try to pull a train from National Airport to Crystal City with a derailed car? How DUMB can you get? Was the controller high or drunk or something? Seriously, tat makes you just want to find the guy, slap him, and yell "Stimpy, you EEEDIOT!"
I take it Metro will do some inspections on the third track at West Falls Church now, especially since that's supposed to be used frequently when and if they start running trains to Dulles Int'l Airport. That also means to check the center tracks between Dupont Circle and Farragut North, west of Grosvenor and east of Silver Spring on the Red Line, and the third track between Mt Vernon Sq and Shaw-Howard Univ. on the Yellow/Green lines.
Pocket track and layup track... is there a difference? I know the terminology refers to a third track between two "regular" tracks, often used to lay over or store trains... but sometimes, the third track stub ends (What the track west of Franconia-Springfield would be should an exstension south ever be opened), and other times, it merges back with the two tracks (Stadium-Armory, Grosvenor, Silver Spring, the spot between Haddonfield and Woodcrest on PATCO, and just west of Spring Garden on SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line). While I'm on that, I also don't know any official terminology for three-track island platform stations like PATCO's Woodcrest or WMATA's West Falls Church and National Airport stations. And it seems the designs for Rosslyn, Pentagon, Wheaton, and Forest Glen stations utterly defy definition.
A pocket track is a layup track.
The only center tracks used to carry revenue passengers on a REGULAR basis are the tracks at West Falls Church and National Airport. Avoiding use of the West Falls Church track is possible but could possibly cause delays. The National Airport situation is not avoidable if they are working on the canopy. That work has been suspended. Passengers do not ride the pockets at Grosvenor, Silver Spring, and Mount Vernon Square on a regular basis. The track at Farragut North was used when the Red Line terminated there and again when the Green Line Commuter Shortcut ran, but never carried revenue passengers on a regular basis. Even if trains had to use those tracks during trackwork for a weekend, it would be OK. The issue at the airport was that the tracks were susposed to be in use EVERY DAY for several MONTHS on a regular basis. Even if multiple weekends of work required use of the center track, weekend services are not that frequent.
I do not know the purpose of the Franconia third track. It is currently used for storage but could be a provision for if the Blue Line were further extended. That way, trains could easily be turned there.
Rosslyn and Pentagon are built the way they are so trains don't cross at grade when the lines split. Make those stations single level and you would have a standard island platform. Forest Glen and Wheaton were done that way to save money I believe.
You coming on the field trip in April?
I wish... I'm supposed to be moving sometime this spring, albeit NOT out of Philly. If I can scrounge up the cash to go, I'll go. I haven't been to my favorite getaway city in almost a year.
I know of why Rosslyn and Pentagon were done that way (Wheaton and Forest Glen... your guess is as good as mine). I'm just unsure as to what name you'd give to such a platform design. "Split-Level Island" sounds good for Rosslyn and Pentagon. Wheaton and Forest Glen... "Excessively Large Island". Forest Glen also may have been done that way because of the elevator-only exit. You need plenty of room when dealing with that many elevators.
Hey, here's a question. If Metro knew they'd only turn trains back from one direction at Grosvenor and Silver Spring, then why did they make the pocket tracks accessible from both directions? Especially Silver Spring, which has double crossovers west (actually south by geographical direction) of the station. Moreover, why did they put Stadium-Armory's pocket track so far east of the station itself?
The pockets at Silver Spring and Grosvenor enable trains to use them almost as diamond crossovers. A train can use the pocket to switch from track 1 to track 2 in both of those locations. A stub track would not be able to do that.
Not sure why the Stadium-Armory is where it is. Might be to reverse trains coming from the New Carrollton to go to Addison and vice-versa so that they don't block other train traffic.
It is probably from when Stadium-Armory was the terminal for the Blue Line when it first opened, as when Farragut North (and later Dupont Circle) was the terminal for the Red Line. Another use is laying up special put-ins for major events at RFK (they have done it on occasion for soccer games and that car race last year).
Or kind of like the Yellow Line above Mt. Vernon Square
I was referring to its location, at the D&G Junction itself instead of closer to the Stadium-Armory Station. The similar pockets, at Silver Spring, Grosvenor, and Mount Vernon Square, are right next to the station. Stadium-Armory is not. R6 asked why, I was offering my hypothesis.
The pocket track east of Stadium-Armory was not in service when phase II opened back in 07 1977 trains were crossed over at the interlocking at Eastern Market The same situation existed when the Yellow Line service started between the lower level of Gallery Place and National Airport back in 04 1983 the crossover at the north end of L’Enfant Plaza was used to crossover trains.
You are absolutely right in regards to the Yellow Line, but in the case of Stadium-Armory and 1977, this was only done as a temporary measure---some time in early 1978, before the New Carrollton branch opened, they did use the pocket track on the bridge beyond Stadium-Armory. If memory serves me, they started using it at the same time they were testing trains for the New Carrollton Branch, which opened in November of the same year.
I know for a fact that the two week period prior to 11 20 1998 opening of the New Carrollton extension trains were run beyond Stadium-Armory during the normal two week preopening shakedown. As for using the pocket track during testing, I don’t think so. After completing exceptence testing and WMATA taking over the operations from the contractor but prior to two week preopening shakedown I don’t recall that happening. I could be wrong.
A number of the segment I got sneak looks at by riding trains during two week preopening shakedown. This was back when I lived in DC and I new most of the train operators by name.
Ah yes, those were the good 'ol days----when you could watch it all as you went up & down Kenilworth Ave.----the good 'ol days.....
Wheaton and Forest Glen were built the way they were built because of the geology of the bedrock and to lower costs. The bedrock in this part of Montgomery County Maryland is very different the bedrock west of Rock Creek Park.
The pocket track are not just for making short turns. They are also used to stage what WMATA calls gap trains. Gap trains are put in service to replace trains that encounter in service failures that require them to be taken out of service. They are also used to store bad order trains that are limping back to yards. This is why pocket track are accessible from both ends on both mainline tracks. As was said by WMATAGMOAGH it can also be used as a crossover.
The pocket track east of Stadium-Armory at D and G junction internally known as D98 is there because this is a single interlocking plant and was the most convenient place to put it that was on a tangent with a 0.35% grade. All pocket tracks are on a 0.35% grade.
The third track at Springfield-Franconia is just that a third tail track for storage of trains. The now under construction Largo Town Center station will be configured the same way as the Springfield-Franconia tail tracks along with a small maintenance building.
Apparently, back in 1997, crybabies were protesting the uniticket because they didn't ride the subway and thus wouldn't be getting the discount.
I was just visiting an excellent site about some of the abandoned stations on the London Underground. On one of the pages (http://www.pendar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Tube/Other.html), the author shows a shot of either a Paris or Madrid subway station and compares it to a typical Underground station. The author calls the Underground station "shameful" and an "embarrassment" in comparison to the Paris/Madrid station.
I guess the author has never seen some of OUR "finer" subway stations! I think NYCT would love to have a station as modern looking and clean as the one shown in the Underground photo!
The entire site is really good. Go visit it to see how the Underground deals with its abandoned stations. Some very interesting stuff there.
Or how about comparing Chambers Street BMT to anything in the Moscow subway.
It's a Paris metro station in the picture, the brand spanking new Line 14. Obviously he's never been here:
(Paris metro line 10 at Michel-Ange Auteuil)
P.S. (And Simon Billis can confirm this) that station really IS that dark. It's not just a poor photo.
Dave's right if you want to take Paris Metro pictures you need either mega fast film or a floodlight.
Simon
Swindon UK
Maybe we can arrange a trade with the French. They send us their new train and we give them the Montague Tunnel in exchange. The French would love it since it would make them feel right at home.
Rat filled? Filthy? I give up how will they feel at home?
What's your guess as to what I feel for the French right about now? Figure it out and you'll have your answer.
Jeeez, you're making it sound like Quebec's located in your country!
-Robert King
France, Robert, France. You know the frogs, Pierres, surrender champs, ungrateful ones?
Reminds me of the American who asked the the Frenchie if he spoke German. Why no, said the Frenchie. Thanks, said the American.
Yeah, I know - the same people who caused the Quebec mess way back when that we're stuck with now. France isn't too popular here either, sometimes.
-Robert King
You can also force it out from logic, too. That's a farily good sized centre platform station and the only lighting is from single tube fluroescent lamps that are placed at intervals instead of in a continuous row, so the station couldn't be very bright.
-Robert King
You did have to pick the worst station in Paris to make THAT point!
Note the track where short turns on line 9 could (and don't) take place fenced off on the right.
Lol, well look at it this way, some people chose to mention Chambers Street/BMT as a symbol of New York's stations. I think mosty people would get scared off if they were shown a photo of Chambers Street, and were told this is what New York's stations look like. Of course at this time, New York is doing very well in station condition. They are slowly renovating many of them, little by little.
(from NYCRail.com)
ALthough, I've never ridden Paris's subwya, I have heard that is very cave/cavern like, and even worse than some of New Yorks cave-like stations.
That's not a fair photo. That's the closed platform. I do agree, though, that if NYCT is not going to seal that platform up (and I hope they don't), it should be renovated or at least cleaned up.
That's not a fair photo. That's the closed platform. I do agree, though, that if NYCT is not going to seal that platform up (and I hope they don't), it should be renovated or at least cleaned up.
Yup, of course thats's the closed platform. But remember that that track is the ACTIVE track in use, that ceiling is the on top of the ACTIVE track, and the platform on the left is the ACTIVE platform, so that disaster in the photo is all in clear view to passengers.
I hate loosing history and I love the abandoned platform, but there is no excuse that paying passengers should have to look at that shamble. Columbus Circle on the A has an abandoned platform in clear view, and that doesn't look like that. They really need to either renovate that platform for historical purposes (which would be great), or just seal over with a new tile wall. It is a fair photo because that mess is all in clear view of passengers and a working station.
This reminds me of the abandoned Spring Garden station on the Broad-Ridge spur in Philadelphia. There's scarcely a square milimeter of it that isn't covered in grafitti. The abandoned PATCO Franklin Square station isn't as bad, but it doesn't look good either.
Mark
Luckily, they do clean the grafitti off of the abandoned platform at Chambers. After all it is in clear view of the in use part of the station. It's still a shame how they keep the platform and let it fall apart.
Well speaking of grafitti, how about abandoned 91st St and 18th St! At least these are not working stations, or included in working stations - just in the tunnel at this point.
I'm not sure whether I should be more amazed at the tenacity and audacity of the grafittists who crawl through the tunnels to paint the stations, or the fact that the transit agencies who actually have the keys to get into the stations the easy way can't seem to manage to get in their to clean it up!
Mark
Hehe, yeah it does take big ones to crawl through the tunnels to do this. When I went on the abandoned station tour at 18th street some years back, there was some fresh grafitti on the wall high up and a ladder there! These guys dragged a ladder through the tunnel to get to 18th Street to "do their thing"!
91st Street is definitely the worst with respect to grafitti over any of the abandoned stations I've been in or have seen photos of.
That sure is a lot of work for grafitti that no one will ever see except whizzing past at too high a speed to really make anything out, least of all the tag of the proud grafittist. ONe has to wonder what the motive is. Just to prove how much of a man you are to a small band of peers who may or may not be able to verufy your claim of having tagged the station?
Mark
I've seen these pictures of 18th St. & 91st St. stations for quite awhile on the Subtalk site and they always bother me. Here are two never modernized contract I IRT stations - which could be kept up as landmarked listed properties - stations that almost 100 years later still appear very close to the way they were in 1904* (minus the original change booth, turn of the century signage, ticket choppers, and fare control area exit gates)- and the walls are just trashed from one end to the other with spray paint.
Everytime I see these photos I think - give me a vest, some kind of hose, plenty of hot water a face mask and strong cleaner, and I'll wash the @#$% walls myself!
* except for 91st St's northbound side - does it still have the tank and piping structure mounted on the platform?
I agree with that. 91st street is considerably worse than 18th Street. That part of the mosaic when I took that photo in the above post was the only part of the wall that wasn't strewn with grafitti. (That was 1996, who knows know). It really is a shame.
There was some talk last year about turning 18th Street into a bar, but I haven't heard anything about that recently. Both 18th and 91st street are almost like time capsules. Amazingly, most of the original 1904 features are still there, just covered in years of grime, and grafitti.
Thankfully, they have not allowed the jewel of the system, City Hall, suffer that indignity. In the photo below, you can see that grafitti does make it there, but I guess they do remove it right away. It's a real shame, however, that they will not be restoring it for it's 100th birthday in 2004, it does need some help also.
Theoretically it IS fair, because the right hand track on the Paris photo isn't used too.
Of course at this time, New York is doing very well in station condition. They are slowly renovating many of them, little by little.
I do agree that they are doing a good job of renovating many stations, but they need to clean them better, or they look like the renovation never happened. If you look at many of the stations that have been renovated over the past few years, you will notice that the floors are disgusting! For example, I was on the B'way-Nassau station platform a few months after the floor had been re-tiled. One of the tiles had broken and was replaced the day before. The color difference between the same two tiles was shocking! The new tile was bright white, and the slightly older(by a few months only), renovated tile was dark grey already. What's the point of renovating these stations if they are not being maintained properly?
This is not a criticism of the cleaners and power-washer crews. They use the tools they are given. Why aren't stronger cleaning supplies and better cleaning equipment used? Power-washing and a mop only go so far... A machine with brushes and stronger cleaning fluid would do a much better job on the floors.
It makes me sad every day to see those floors.
I do agree with that. Maybe it is a cost-cutting measure lately, because it does seem that some stations are less clean than they were cleaning them a few years ago. (Although much better than many years ago). Then you also have some neighborhoods that actually have protested renovations at some of their stations. I remember reading that the neighborhood was against a recent renovation at 110th Street and 116th street on the 1, which included special rooms to keep cleanign equipment. (they weren't necesarily protesting the room, but I guess the renovation). I don't understand why (I guess they were thinking of the monstrosity at 137th Street) because most recent renovations have been done very tastefully. And they certainly could use a room to store cleaning equipment, even if it means slight modification to the station.
Renovations have begun. There are temporary blue plywood walls at 103rd and the white tiles have been stripped along part of each platform at 110th and 116th.
Thanks for the info. I guess the MTA has won the neighborhood over by reminding them it will tasteful renovation, probably along the lines of 33rd Street (hopefully). I guess I would feel the same "fear" thinking of having "original" stations and then imagining they would turn it into 137th Street.
One of the problems with the renovations/cleanliness is that many of the renovated stations now have floor tiles with a very porous surface. Dirt sticks to those tiles and needs to be scrubbed off. Most of the stations that have non-pourous, shiny tiles are much cleaner. I wonder why those porous tiles were chosen in such a dirty environment?
People are less likely to slip and fall on rough surfaces. I agree, they don't look good for long, but I guess it's a compromise.
Mark
HEH, I have a brother in the tile business...heh.
Peace,
ANDEE
(Most of the stations that have non-pourous, shiny tiles are much cleaner. I wonder why those porous tiles were chosen in such a dirty environment? )
I know many cases of near falls on the shiny tiles. The MTA probably realized they would be sued to death if they continued with them.
Yeah, the "new" shiny tiles were considered by many people to be a hazard, particularly when on an angle and/or when wet. At Union Square they added some traction strips along sloped areas. At Chambers/WTC, they tiled only level floors with the shiny tiles, and later tiled in the sloped portions of the corridors using the rougher tiles.
The rougher tiles are much better for walking, but get dirty REALLY quickly. When they were installing them on the ramps in Broadway-Nassau in phases, you could tell which tiles had been installed more than a week ago because they were already filthy, while the ones installed in the last week were still pretty new-looking. Also, the shiny tiles seem to be exceptionally good for scraping gum off of (something that seems impossible with the untiled concrete floors, and difficult but still possible with the rougher tiles).
They shoud've kept the concrete floors. Much lower maintenance.
They kept them at Tremont on the Concourse line.
Peace,
ANDEE
The shiny ones don't stay clean, either. Been to 7th Avenue lately? Not only are they filthy, they don't even sit flat there.
Hey, the ones at 34/6th, IND platform, can get slippery as hell when it's humid. And they're "textured"....Go figure.
Peace,
ANDEE
Very true. I think the "granite" looking tiles do look fairly descent. Stations like Sutphin on the Archer line look terrible though with the sort of tiles they have there. That station did not age well at all.
That's not so bad. Its old and dark, but clean. It looks better than Grand Central on the 7, and that's after the renovation!
"The author calls the Underground station "shameful" and an "embarrassment" in comparison to the Paris/Madrid station.
I think NYCT would love to have a station as modern looking and clean as the one shown in the Underground photo!"
I'm a little puzzled by Mitch45's statement - there isn't really a photo of a London Underground station at the URL he gives. There are a couple of pictures of old tube rolling stock (1938 stock, which wasn't running all that recently, despite what the site says) in a couple of surface stations, but those photos are really there to illustrate the trains, not the stations.
I'm sure we could find some very attractive LU stations (some new, as on the Jubilee Line Extension, and some refurbished), and some pretty dreadful ones. I'm not sure what all this proves, except that the New York, London and Paris systems are large and old, and you can't refurbish a large system all at once. Madrid's is smaller and it seemed pretty old and grungy when I rode it about seventeen years ago - and I liked it that way! - but no doubt it's been modernised since then.
Continental Europe does have good examples of modern railway station design, and rail architecture on these offshore islands is perhaps not so innovative. I think Luton Airport Parkway station (built about three-four years ago) looks like a modern continental station - appropriately, since I pass through it en route to low-cost flights to the continent! Similarly, the new Eurostar station currently under construction for the Channel Tunnel trains at London St Pancras looks as if it's going to be pretty interesting, as it grafts very modern design in the extension on to the historic Victorian building.
I'm sure we could find some very attractive LU stations (some new, as on the Jubilee Line Extension, and some refurbished)
Attractive, but not as practical as many other stations (eg Oxford Circus).
You have to scroll to the bottom of the page I linked to. Sorry, I should have mentioned that.
Just one word:
SEPTA
Mark
Major article (four pages in online version)by Wendell Jamieson in Sunday Times on the NYCH, including some history, some day-to-day operations, some people stuff, three photos and a small map
Riding the Bounding Rails
It is strange to see train tracks running into buildings, which look more like dead ends than destinations. The Cross Harbor tracks, which are also leased from the city, were cobbled together in 1984 from those belonging to two dying dock railroads. They run along First Avenue, and spread out into several warehouses. They go east on 41st Street to Second Avenue and then turn north again, literally cutting through the corner of one warehouse.
Thanks. I'm gonna have to read this later, or in the paper when I get home.
---Brian
Very nice article! I got a laugh when it said that the line's VP is probably the only person in New York who actually needs a Land Rover.
Great Article. I think the 65th st. yard float is older than 3 years. Looks rather decrepid, also.
At least those tracks serve a purpose.
Yes, the as-yet underutilized concept of floating freight is a fire waiting to ignite. It's such a good idea I'm stumf****d as to why we aren't seeing endless floating transfers day and night. The sight of `em crossing should be as fixed a sight as the Verrazanno Bridge, yet another sign to a returning Brooklynite that he has indeed come home again.
Think I'll look into getting some of that stock....which would be the first ownership of such on my part. Put my money (ha ha) where my mouth is....
CP and New York & Atl were/are ready to use it a lot more, however I believe CP has gotten cold feet & found it cheeper/just as cheep to sent freight South the l-o-n-g way :-(
CP and New York & Atl were/are ready to use it a lot more, however I believe CP has gotten cold feet & found it cheeper/just as cheep to sent freight South the l-o-n-g way :-(
This is good pre-publicity for one of my Waterfront Railway Tours...
Interesting that the author didn't take note of the CONDITION of the tracks in the street...some places along the route it's almost easier if they ran trains w/o rails. LOL!
How's about you, me and Jeff get together and demonstrate some locomotive steering wheel technology to these guys? :)
No problemo...
Seriously, you should SEE what CSX accepts for rails up here. Ever woner why I wasn't sheeting a peekle about somce certain mainline rails in a secure, undisclosed location that had crescent moons out of their bottom profiles that 1689 ran over again and again and again in (ahem, kaff) "revenue?"
If I was a hardass, I would have dumped the train before you coulda said, "you bet yer life" ... but I know the dynamics of iron. As long as they're in gauge, they'll qwap the bed AFTER I've run over them. :)
Just for the comparison, I ran an SD-80MAC onto a siding in Voorheesville, NY and spotted an OUT OF GAUGE in my face and BIE'd in time. Conrail. So ... can't spot the train, and can't cross all 12 wheels across the IG to clear ... GENIUSES from Philly comes up, throws it into reverse ... ONE FOOT of travel and ON THE GROUND. Hahahahahaha ... whoops. :)
I can spot metal. DYING phucking ART. GEEZ ...
Should have added, unless someone gets antsy about me, that if I felt in the LEAST bit that the "rail defects" (multiple) that I spotted were *ANY* risk, ya know I'm imbued with genuine NYCTA paranoid (you and others SAW how I was about "safety, deadly serious, and adherence to proper motoring") mindset - there was NO danger to the "mooned feet" of the rails, KNOWING that if a rail actually BROKE, Unca Jeff's ANAL track circuit measurements would have dropped the ball on EVERYTHING toute suite ...
Saw them, went "tsk tsk" and grabbed the controller with a firm hand ready to throw the brake handle to 5:00, or just let go of the throttle. But as expected, the rail HELD ... again, and again, and again. AS EXPECTED ...
Wish Branford gave more credit for the SUPERB track conditions to the FACHES I see routinely credited for shaping up - *you*, Unca Thurstojn and a few other regulars. WISH I could get down there more often than I have ... I feel *SO* useless all the way up here. :(
Thanks for the Kudos! BTW, I was at a train show this past weekend in Jersey and I picked up a book on recognizing rail defects...it was published by the 'experts' -- Sperry Rail Co. I'll certainly be using it as a reference tool.
Heh. It'll only make you CRAZY! CROWNING is serious stuff, and can make a rail failure UNDER your "car" ... crowning is longitudinal failure, and it's pretty serious ... from out of nowhere, you have 5% of the iron to carry the weight of ... whatever. Nope, GROUND. Take some wood with you as a souvenir if you must. CRUNCH. :(
The DEFECTS I spotted were ALL *TA EMERGENCY* simply because they were THERE, but I have faith in Unca Jeff's ANAL impedance checking and other safeguards. And before JEFF thinks I'm picking on him, NAH! SIGN OF RESPECT! I *know* a crack or bre4ak would register. I've been nothing less than OVERWHELMED by Jeff's knowledgeee, awareness, proofs of concept, and annoying minutiae (heh) over how he, as curator of Branford signalling among OTHER important minutae, has taken his craft DEAD seriously and KNOWS his shi'ite ...
Bottom line, as long as it stays *ON* the rails, speed restrictions *ARE* the engineering solution. SCWOO what 2 MPH will do to your motors, read the @# ^&@*#%@^ sign. :)
That would be a fun idea. With those tracks you practically need a steering wheel.
#3 West End Jeff
You would be AMAZED at what flanges can negotiate *IF* the speed is slow enough and if your brakeman/conductor can SPOT if a car goes sideways and you can MAKE IT STOP. And THAT is the magic. :)
CHITTY rails are a way of life on MOST sidings, and let's be real here, no matter WHAT your motive, NYCH is a toy railroad, a common carrier of "nobody ELSE wanted THIS JOB" status. As a small business in NYS, I can understand EXACTLY the qwap they're going through, perenially being shaken down for money they DON'T have, but since they're not working for the state under contract, and NOT paying off Joe Bruno, then they're SCROOD for lack of "value." Been there, done that, dissed Don Joe Bruno and gotten abused out of my rights as a voter by "Proud to be republicans" ... OK, I shut uppa my face..
But yeah, they should be allowed to drop honestly parallel iron on their piece of the street. They should be allowed to smack vehicles like any REAL railroad (and at "speed") without penalty ... and Don, errrrrrr ... JOE Bruno should be allowed to bring in Sicilian contractors to ENSURE that the train move on time. Political contribution of $5 million required in advance, of course. :)
The NYCH RR seems to be like a gigantic set of Loinel trains. It would be good if they could place honestly parallel iron on their piece of street and if anyone dares to park on the street, they deserve to have their car smacked!!
#3 West End Jeff
The New York Cross Harbor railroad can remind one of the South Brooklyn Railroad that is the T/As own railroad. I like the picture of the railroad tracks literally cutting through the warehouse.
#3 West End Jeff
I have Time Warner Cable in Manhattan and I can't find the TV show "Transit Transit" listed at all. Is it shown on Time Warner Cable in Manhattan on any channel?
---Brian
Try channel 25, WNYE.
Try channel 25, WNYE. It airs every Saturday at 3:30 PM. I believe certain Time Warner channels show it as well at other times but this is how I watch Transit Transit News. The next month, they have a new show. Unfortunately, I railfanned yesterday and I forgot a new one was aired yesterday.
I apologize for the double post but I forgot something. Personally, I think the TT shows have declined in quality starting a couple of months ago. The shows are becoming more and more tourist-targeted and they fail to mention pertinent information like service advisories or other potentially useful information. I'd like to see progress reports on what's happening at Times Square, Broadway/Jackson Heights or Coney Island. Probably the most stupid thing is that 'Professor Putter' segment. They ask some good questions to ask like 'What's the longest line?. Someone actually said the 7! LOL.
Though in April's show, the queston asked was 'What does MTA stand for?' Weird....
"Though in April's show, the queston asked was 'What does MTA stand for?' Weird...."
I think you mean February's show. -Nick
Oh yes... My mistake.. 8-)
For April the question hould be "How Do You Spell MTA?"
Thanks for the info!
Cablevision has channel 22 now (sigh), but Local TV and Time Warner is Channel 25, BTW, this month's edition was a rerun from last year, I remember seeing this months episode before.
Yea, but it does't matter TT SUCKS, IMO
Peace,
ANDEE
I've been considering this idea for a long time. For subway service to Staten Island from Manhattan and Brooklyn, can this happen?
1) The Nassau St stub tracks south of Broad St become the connection to Staten Island, through a cross-harbor tunnel. This gives the Nassau St line a purpose, and gives Staten Island residents access to the major points of Downtown Manhattan and only one connection to just about everywhere else. These two tracks, upon entering Staten Island, stop at a newly designed St. George and continue along the SIRT tracks, or if deemed necessary can branch off between the current SIRT tracks and the abandoned North Shore line.
2) The Sea Beach line is restored to a four-track line. West of 8th Ave the following would take place. The two local tracks (one in each direction) would go down as they do now into the express tracks as 59th. Question: Is it the Sea Beach local tracks that blend in with the express or vice versa going down that hill? Meanwhile the other two tracks would (this is the part I'm least sure can happen) somehow cross the 4th Ave line perpendicularly (either above or below, whatever is easier) and become the 67th St line out to Staten Island. For the sake of reroutes and construction, 4th Ave trains from Pacific and 36th, after stopping at 59th, would have three possibilities: Bay Ridge, Sea Beach, or Staten Island. The track to Staten Island would feed into the local tracks. The track to Sea Beach would feed as it does now into the express tracks. Sea Beach trains have two possibilities: Staten Island or Manhattan.
3) Make the R line from 59th to 95th a three track line as provisions allowed (there are no columns on the Manhattan side of Bay Ridge Ave and 77th St). Two trains would run to 95th, one express, one local. This would make Bay Ridge riders extremely happy. Express trains skip 77th and Bay Ridge Ave, and then run express north of 59th. Fewer trains will be coming in off the Sea Beach so this would be possible.
4) In Staten Island, the Sea Beach/67th St tracks (the 2 of them) will have three options: one to go into St. George and into Nassau/Manhattan, another to go to Tottenville, and a third for North Shore.
5) Build the SAS such that the two tracks of the SAS feed in to the two outside platforms at Grand behind the wall, and then after Grand they would cut across and stop at the abandoned two bridge tracks at Chambers on the Nassau Line and then go from there.
I fully understand the MTA's budget deficit, so if that wasn't an issue, would this plan be feasible? The advantages I see are that the Sea Beach and the Nassau lines (two lines with relatively low ridership) get a higher purpose. Sea Beach Fred is happy because his line still feeds into the 4th Ave express tracks, and now also through Staten Island into Manhattan. Staten Island/Queens commutes are made A LOT easier (one train maybe?), as well as Staten Island/Bronx commutes.
Comments appreciated, but please no jokes about me ignoring the budget deficit.
I'm more concerned about whether this plan is PHYSICALLY possible (ie it does not intefere with already-existing trackage) than anything else.
Have you been to SI? Have you ridden SIR?
They use two-car trains (75-foot cars). The stations are very close together, and the platforms are VERY short, with only a single car's doors opening at any given platform. Even at rush hour, the trains are infrequent.
Converting SIR to anything resembing a real subway line would entail closing about two-thirds of the existing stations, and enormously lengthening the platforms of others. At the same time, to make the line even passably cost effective, you'd have to probably have another elevated line over the SI Exp'y.
SI would be better served with a high-quality light rail service, via SIR, an el over the SI Exp'y, all feeding onto the lower deck of the VZ Bridge to a covered terminal intersecting with the Sea Beach, from 8th Ave practically over to the turn onto 4th Ave.
If any new under-river or harbor tunnel is built with service to SI in mind, then something into the upper level of the Culver IND at Atlantic/Smith, connecting it to the West End via Greenwood Cemetery. This would allow a tremendous increase in express service via 4th Av. One might even demote 36th St. to a local stop.
That is the worst idea I've heard yet. Light rail to bay ridge and then a slow long trip via the N and R 4th ave line would result in a big waste of money and no-one using the service.
IT would be a major improvement if the SIRR was converted into a 4-car subway line. Ridership is virtually nothing because it take you almost nowhere, it's slow and it never comes.
Increase the service with a simi-direct route into manhattan and ridership would skyrocket. The 4th AVE line would be bennifited with increased service.
Actually, IINM most SIR trains are four cars long, and with a few exceptions, all cars platform at all stations.
the sirt has 4 car trains and a few stations that can only platform two cars mostly on the outer end near tottenville. And they are not that close together..like the subways..
the sirt has 4 car trains and a few stations that can only platform two cars mostly on the outer end near tottenville. And they are not that close together..like the subways..
I think its a great idea, but...
Instead of having so many lines feed a terminal in Staten Island, it could be one continuous through-line, from Nassau St through Staten Island (via SIR trackage) to the Sea Beach Line. There could instead be through-express service from Nassau to St. George and one or two other Staten Island stops, and then through another tunnel to the Sea Beach. Since service on the SIR is so infrequent, a couple of express trains could slip in between each scheduled SIR train. The junction at 4th Ave would be difficult, though, between the SBK, 4 Av line, and the Sea Beach Line. The only way this would be possible is if the junction between the two express and local tracks would have to be moved east and the express tracks would have to rise to an elevated structure for a short period, then sink back into a tunnel. Creating a flying junction between all lines in all directions is impossible...Take the IND's 53 St/6 Av as an example. That's a four-track line and three two-track lines (the E and B/D lines don't even interlock) and look how complex that is. Imagine trying to make a complete flying junction between two four-track lines, and two 2-track lines, without disrupting the major offramp of the BQE/Gowanus/whatever the heck that highway over there is called. With a simple two-track through line a train like the Z could run express, make two stops in Staten Island, and have a stop just to the west of 4th Ave to transfer with 4 Av/59 St. At night, it would just be a shuttle from Broad St-4th Ave.
In fact, if the 2nd avenue subway is ever built, there could be a connection between it and the old Nassau Loop tracks @ Chambers St, and passengers would have direct service through the rest of Manhattan, not just part of the Nassau Line.
"Creating a flying junction between all lines in all directions is impossible.."
Can the 2 tracks from Sea Beach to Staten Island go UNDER the 4th Ave line so that the Gowanas isn't even in question? When you have those two Sea Beach tracks descend and come in as the 59th St express tracks, can't the other two tracks come down as well, but just go deeper? And again, on the Sea Beach do the local tracks merge with the express west of 8th Ave or vice versa?
It's both, actually-I think the Coney Island-bound local diverges from the express, and the 4th Ave-bound express merges into the local. So that would be three tracks wide (to the west), with a space in between. Those tracks turn and actually become the 4th Avenue express tracks, leaving a huge space between tracks on the R for a little while south.
Actually, I like an idea I read on this board to extend PATH across the Arthur Kill to Staten Island and run its trains on the abandoned North Shore line. I think another idea to extend the Hudson-Bergen light rail across to Staten Island has merit, too, though the PATH idea could provide a one-seat ride to Manhattan that HBLR couldn't. These ideas just seem easier than connecting SI to Manhattan or Brooklyn, from an engineering point of view.
Mark
And, I read somewhere ages ago, that the Bayonne Bridge was designed to handle IRT-sized trains, on separate trackways (i.e., not along the existing traffic lanes).
A PATH connection is improbable, as the system is already overcapacity. Extending the light rail line across the Bayonne Bridge to at least St. George, tho', would be an interesting idea: I wonder if it would be cost effective, and what effect it would have on the capacity of the H-B line.
(A PATH connection is improbable, as the system is already overcapacity.)
A PATH connection is improbable, but not because the system is over capacity. They are improving the signaling system. They can probably get 36 tph, which is far more than they've ever run on any segment before. Note also that Hoboken traffic decreased with the advent of midtown direct service and will decrease even more with the Secaucus transfer.
It's money and politics, not capacity, that would keep the PATH out of Staten Island.
But going across the lower deck of the VN Bridge would be phenomenonally cheaper than a subway tunnel. And a properly configured Sea Beach transfer would allow reasonable service to Manhattan.
As it is, lots of people take a bus across the bridge and transfer to the R in Bay Ridge.
GREAT IDEA!! I certainly would be for a direct Staten Island to Manhattan connection. I also like the idea of restoring the BMT Sea Beach Line to its former glory. #4 Sea Beach Fred would be estatic.
#3 West End Jeff
My father has provided me of some footage of himself riding an R train and walking through the destroyed WTC area, with his own brand of commentary, on videocassette which he shot himself using a camcorder.
Some of this may be of interest to fans of...
www.forgotten-ny.com
though i have deliberately shied away from using WTC images other than those on my own WTC tribute page.
My question is...is it at all feasible to transfer this video footage into my computer and convert it to a quicktime file viewable from the website.
(I already have a gizmo that should enable me to transfer vinyl recordings into my mac so this shouldn't be impossible either...
I have a video capture card. I bought it a few years ago for $60.
They probably have similar models for the Mac.
Hi Subtalkers. When I visit NYC next week I intend to do as much railfanning as possible and take as many photographs as possible. I am a little wary, however, of venturing in to neighborhoods which are a little unsafe, as my camera is an expensive one! Are there any lines/stations best avoided or are most of them reasonably safe, by day at least?
by day, all are safe. So long as you dont act like you want to be robbed.
In general it's always a good idea to watch your p's and q's anytime you're in the subway. Keep your eyes open and watch out for people that might cause problems. Also don't spend too much time in any one location. And always think about where you're going afterwards.
I'm sure other people will come up with lines and stations to avoid. During the day it shouldn't be too bad. Also don't let your camera hang from your neck in plain view. Someone can just walk up, grab it and run. No joke.
Well most stations are safe. But I'd be wary of some G line stations, as well as the 3 in ENY, and some areas in the South Bronx. However, personally, the station I find most un-nerving is the Bowery on the Nassau street line, it's like a ghostown. Creepy..
However, personally, the station I find most un-nerving is the Bowery on the Nassau street line, it's like a ghostown. Creepy..
Bowery is a bit spooky, but it's really not a dangerous spot though. I think it's more the low ridership, and the delapitated condition of the station itself that makes it spooky. That neighborhood is not any worse than many other "less-nice" areas in the city.
Think of Chambers/BMT station. That station is NOT in a bad neighborhood at all, but you can't get spookier than the way that station looks, but it's just the condition of the station that makes it spooky.
^^^"I'd be wary of some G line stations"^^^
Well, I resent that remark. You should learn to mind your P & Qs or
stay in Sea Cliff, deviated ninny.
8-( Sparky
I resent some of your resentment. While parts of the G line are not bad, Myrtle/Willoughby and Flushing Aves are not in the greatest of neighborhoods. Sereral clerks have been injured at those stations.
For the sake of keeping this on Topic and not have this thread degenerate into something else, Let me say Parts of the G line are pretty good. There are a few stations where you shouldn't get off to explore the area. It's true for all of the system. Not just one area.
The best station on the G is Smith-9th. A safe station and it share the line with the F.
If I have to go to Smith-9th I'd rather be on the F. Over there the G train either goes in or out of service.
It doesn't matter which train you take to Smith/Ninth; you get off the train there to take pictures, or just look at the scenery and later get on whichever train you want.
And that view is amazingly still a great view (even after 9/11/2001).
And that view is amazingly still a great view (even after 9/11/2001).
Yes, and it serves to remind us of 9-11 by what we don't see.
Yes, it's very sad.
Looking at the current pic it's like someone smiling without 2 front teeth. 8-(
^^^"Flushing Aves are not in the greatest of neighborhoods"^^^
Lots of new housing going up in that neighborhood, north of Flushing
Avenue as well as in the vicinity of Broadway station. Not the
subsidized type either. Also much vacant land in the vicinity.
The area is making a come back.
Want an unsavory station on the G line, how about 21th~VanAlst after
normal Monday~Friday business hours?
8-) Sparky
21/Van Alst doesn't have projects nearby as Flushing Ave does. I hope the neighborhood is getting better. I worked in the booths along the G line and it doesn't seem so safe. I hope it's only me that feels like that.
^^^"21/Van Alst doesn't have projects nearby as Flushing Ave does."^^^
Well, 21/Van Alst has a very insipid reputation and not from its
surrounding neighborhood either.
The new housing North of Flushing and toward Broadway, are not
projects. May have non existent Saturday ridership though.
Also you are stereotyping when using the phrase "projects".
8-) Sparky
Maybe "projects" is the wrong word to use. But there are the Marcy Houses on the south side of Fluahing and Marcy. Some of the clerks I know who have worked at M/W and Flushing don't think so highly about it.
Everybody is entitled to their opinion of specific locations.
But, if you use that "P" word, one of the most ill-reputed "P" locations is at 21th/Queensbridge.
But lets not go there, its way OT.
8-) Sparky
agreed
Well, to make one final comment, JohnS himself referred to "subsidized housing," which these days has the same negative connotation as "the projects."
Speaking of P, the north end of the Queensbound platform at 34th on Broadway was pull of P and I had to hold my nose.
Ah yes....well I resemble that remark. The subway may be dangerous. If you have to ask, take the bus. Don't ride if you're scared, you chknsht.
No part of the system is really unsafe, especially during the day, you should be fine. Just use your head. Don't flash expensive items in secluded areas, that goes for even the best of neighborhoods. There is no part of the subway that you really need to be scared of as long as it's daytime. New York's subway has been trying to shake the stigma it got in the 70's for years. It finally has. It's been more than safe for at least 15 years, even if the stigma still existed well into that time.
It's unlikely you'll be able to do the whole system. The G line is fine, but I would not get off at the Myrtle, Flushing or Broadway stations (these are downright scary -- nothing a few cops wouldn't cure); the transfer between the G and L at Lorimer, tho', is interesting, and worth an exploration.
You'll want to do the Myrtle Av el (the M), and if you have time, the whole of the J/Z line out to Archer Ave. The West End and Brighton lines are interesting too. You definitely want to do the whole of the Flushing line.
With IND stations, once you've seen one, you've pretty much seen them all.
One interesting area to explore is the Borough-Hall complex: check out all three platorms, then exit and see how it all relates to the streetscape above (I suggest the exit at the east end of the BMT, platforms where you go to transfer to the IRT lines).
For the Bronx, upper Broadway is a must. The other three IRT el lines are also interesting. The Dyre Av line is very interesting: you'll it was built as a full four-track system.
I agree, as Jefferey said, the M is definitely worth a trip, and the J/Z also.
You probably wouldn't have time to do them all, but these are the best of the best - the lines I say are a must do, if for the first time in New York:
-The J and M lines - great old style, traditional el routes. The J between Marcy and Broadway Junction (and the M between Myrtle and Knickerbocker) is in a bit of urban decay, but perfectly safe and very interesting.
-The A train from Broadway Junction to the Rockaways. If you are doing the J and M, it's easy to transfer to the A at Broadway Junction. Great scenery as the A traverses Jamaica Bay to the beach.
-The 2/5 in the Bronx. As Jefferey said, the Dyre line (5) north of East 180th is very interesting.
-the 1 line from 42nd Street to 242Street. It's part of the original New York subway, so the underground stations are all very interesting, the 125th viaduct is a nice highlight, and the northern end is pure old el.
-the 7 line. A Queens classic.
The bottom line is that the IND is boring because it's primarily underground. A railfan window ride out to Far Rock would be priceless for a visiting railfan.
Yup exactly, the A to Rockaway is the first line anyone should do as a tourist, that's why I said to take the J to Broadway Junction, and then switch to the A, instead of taking the A all the way to Far Rockaway from manhattan. Although on the way back he might as well take the A to Broadway-Nassau Street (for a different way back to Manhattan, even if it's just plain standard underground IND from Broadway Junction to Broadway-Nassau Street) and transfer to the 2/3 there (and later along the line transfer to the 1 and then ride up to 242 Street).
I recommend the following non-boring IND stations:
- 181 St (A)
- 191 St (A)
- 110th St, uptown platform at the rear (A)
- Columbus Circle
- Smith / 9th Sts (F,G)
- 9th St / 4th Ave (F)
On the Rockaway Line, I'd recommend you get off at Beach 44th St and walk to the boardwalk. There is clear line of sight between the Beach 36th and Beach 60th Street stations if you stand on the Boardwalk in the vicinity of the Beach 44th St station. Also, get off at Beach 90th St and walk to the park in the middle of Hammels Wye. Finally, walk over to the Cross Bay Bridge and take pictures of the A & shuttle trains crossing the South Channel Bridge. Part of the fun of this is getting off the train and finding that great shot from a vantage point off the system. The Rockaway Line is one such example where you can do this.
--Mark
What's "unsavory" can also be highly subjective. I was going to post on my experience in ENY just about 45 minutes ago. I wanted to do it in a new thread, but here goes:
I had travelled today from my home in Queens Village via LIRR to ENY/Atlantic Ave., then L train to Livonia Avenue to visit one of my former EMS partners who lives there. (It was raining, and anyway, an excuse to railfan is..well you get the idea). On my way back, I took the L back to ENY/Atlantic to catch the 3:58 home.
Being a railfan, I walked around the easternmost part of the plat, looking at the old underpass and station layout. I then walked back by the Atlantic/Snediker entrance, because the LIRR closes the head pair on this train. When I got there I saw a bag laying on the wall at the street side of the plat. Just as I began thinking about "abandoned bags" a fellow came running back to his bag from waaaay down the plat where his friends were. "You didn't see anybody going through this bag?" he barked at me as he searched his bag frantically. "Did you touch this bag?" he cried. When I said "No", he yelled "What the $@*& were you doing down THERE?". By then his friends had joined him and it looked like I was gonna be the "bad guy".
I explained that I was just looking at the station. This got me some odd looks. But then the fellow realized all the contents of his bag were still there, and he and his group left me and walked back to where they had been. That's how TOO much fear and prejudgement can get you messed up, especially when you're an "unsavory" railfan.
That is messed up. Luckily, you turned up all right. If those people want to do their 'business', they should do in a better place, not in an area where's it easy to mess up and get caugh.
While doing the #7, get off at 90th st and walk along Roosevelt until 82nd St cut down 82nd to 37th ave, make a left follow 37th ave towards 74th Street, follow 74th up to the entrance to the E/F/G/R/V/7
You experience the world in that short walk, and some great places
to eat!
Yeah, that place is really great! Of course, you can't forget Astoria and its El as well. I highly recommend though you don't get off early like at Beebe or something. Yesterday, I was doing railfanning and I had gotten off at Queens Plaza to look at the ESA workplace. As I was walking along, some guy passed me and starting barking obscene and lewd things. I just shunned him, thinking his stupid action were no concern to me. It was hard to believe once I got to another subway station... it is rough out there... Use common sense.
Uh, isn't this where the Riker's Island bus starts? Very few actually use Queens Plaza or Queensborough Plaza as a destination.
Nope, that's much more northwest, where the N/W terminate.
The bus to Riker's Island starts at s/w corner of Queens Blvd and Jackson Avenue. It's closer to Queens Plaza than to Queensboro Plaza.
My advice, after 8 years of living by Halsey St/Wilson Ave on the L:
Stay off the L. Wilson, Atlantic, and Sutter Ave stations are in bad physical condition; Atlantic Av on a weekend is empty and creepy; besides, once you get in the tunnel west of Bway Jct, its nothing but a boring, slow, timed, two-track line. Only Bway Jct-Rockaway Pkwy is of any interest (minus Sutter). Unless you're trying to get from the M to the A/C or between trains in Manhattan on 14th Street, don't get on the L. If you want shots of the R-143, or of ENY yard, just stand on Broadway Junction platform for a while; you're bound to see at least one.
Also, there is construction on the L, breaking it up into three sections on weekends, and even on weekdays, trains crawl at 5-10 MPH between Wilson Av and Halsey St all the time.
Bottom line: No matter what you do, do NOT take the Manhattan-bound L from Broadway Jct to Myrtle Av. The train may take 15+ minutes to come, and will probably be late, and will run at 10MPH. Take the J instead; at least its outside and you can get some good shots at Broadway/Myrtle.
Bottom line: No matter what you do, do NOT take the Manhattan-bound L from Broadway Jct to Myrtle Av. The train may take 15+ minutes to come, and will probably be late, and will run at 10MPH. Take the J instead; at least its outside and you can get some good shots at Broadway/Myrtle.
This has got to be a bit exagerated. "No matter what you do....". Yes right now ON WEEKENDS the L is undergoing construction, but during the day on the weekdays there is NO problem. I do agree the J/M combo is more interesting between Myrtle-Wyckoff and Broadway Junction than the L between Myrtle/Wyckoff and Broadway Junction, but the L is not a scarey line, and is far from uninteresting. Actually, Canarsie Bound, east of Myrtle, the L is fairly interesting because you are underground, then duck outside for Wilson, go back underground for Bushwick, and then then back out again for broadway Junction. West of Myrtle the L is all underground, but contains some of the best mosaics in the system. The L would not be the first line I would recommend, but not because it is bad or uninteresting, just because the others mentioned are a better to do first if on a limited tourist time schedule.
I *completely* disagree. Back in November, I walked the line between Bushwick / Aberdeen and Sutter Ave taking video of the soon-to-be-removed Snediker Ave El and its environs, including the Broadway / Junction complex, one of, if not the, most interesting elevated complex on the entire system. The "S" curve out of Sutter is a great place to take pictures from, at street level. And it's changing, so grab pictures now before what you want to get is totally gone.
I did this alone during daylight hours. The area is mostly industrial (scrap / recyclers) and there is a cemetary nearby. In fact, I walked into the cemetary onto a hill and the view of the Broadway - East NY complex was great. (I didn't take video because the sun was in the wrong place and there is a sign in the cemetary expressly prohibiting it).
Take a look at the second half of the description of this video and you'll see exactly what I videotaped.
--Mark
Okay, maybe I didn't quite put it right...what I meant was to avoid actually riding the L train, not to avoid getting shots of Bway Jct/Atlantic Av. If its a weekend, L service is so screwed up that by the time the train would come you could walk from Bway Jct to Atlantic to Sutter and back. Of course Broadway Junction is a great photo spot; the only elevated junction still existing that comes even close to being as complex as that one is E 180 St in the Bronx.
This gives me an oppertunity to ask a good question.
I have been to NYC 3 times and explored all the boroughs a little bit on the subway. I would have to say I really wasn't scared or thinking why did I come here at any time on any of my trips. The walk from the Belmont Italian district to the Subway in the Bronx was a little rough, but if I would have stayed on main streets and not tried to take short cuts it would have been fine.
My question I have is, is there anywhere that you should avoid at all costs in NYC??? Something similar to 63rd/Ashland, Englewood, here in Chicago. I know you guys are sympathetic towards the subway and I am also towards the CTA L system. However, I always tell people that there is absolutely nothing to see in Englewood and because it's very dangerous to never ride the Green Line there day or night. I would recommend anywhere else on the CTA system for rail-faning during the day. On the other hand East 63rd/Cottage grove has some new developments and is changing into a very nice area. Also at the extreme east end of 63rd St. you have the beautiful Jackson Park and 63rd St. Beach. Not to mention you can also ride Metra Electric to 63rd St. about 3/4th mile east of East 63rd on the Green Line. This way you can still see the majority of the green Line on the south side and have something to do when you get off at East 63rd. Not to mention you can ride Metra one way and make the trip even more interesting.
It is not either because 63rd/Ashland or 63rd/Halsted are in bad condition, it is because of the neighborhood their in. Almost every-single day someone gets murdered in the Englewood neighborhood. I know people who live on the West side of Chicago in neighborhoods that are considered very dangerous who would never dream of even driving to Englewood let alone taking the L.
My question is, is it possible to specifically say to avoid certain NYC areas like Englewood here in Chicago at all cost or are all areas generally safe during the day-light hours???
Again, I do not feel any part of the NY subway system is unsafe during the day. And as long as you stay in the system in some of the questionable areas, anyone should be fine. This may because I sort of become immune to most of NY's neighborhoods, probably through railfanning, and none of the areas really bothers me anymore.
Where I wouldn't recommend getting out by oneself would probably be some areas of the South Bronx, and around where the L and 3 lines meet near East New York, and around where the G line makes it's 90 degree turn in Bedford-Stuyvesant. But even all of those areas are not really half as bad as they used to be, and have improved. In those areas, there is nothing really for a tourist to see anyway, if gettng out of the system there. In a group, again you would have no problem, especially during the day.
Question-
How's the area between the 2 (Bronx Park East or Pelham) and the Bronx Zoo. I was considering taking a half day and shooting up to the zoo on a wednesday.
Thanks,
Bryan
Question-
How's the area between the 2 (Bronx Park East or Pelham) and the Bronx Zoo. I was considering taking a half day and shooting up to the zoo on a wednesday.
It should be fine.
Wednesdays might be very crowded because it's "free" day, and many school groups come and take advantage of the no-cost option.
--Mark
Maybe that's why he's going.
Yup, that's why I'm going!
....I did see a couple of jabborwockeys there last week.
Thanks guys and gals, if anyone is going to be in the Bronx Zoo tomorrow (Wednesday), just shout "Jimmy Proboscis" once in a while in the monkey areas, I'll be there!
Thanks for all the info, guys and gals!
I don't agree with the assessment of the L in the Broadway Junction area during daylight hours. See this post.
--Mark
I don't agree with the assessment of the L in the Broadway Junction
I agree with you too, but I never mentioned Broadway Junction, unless you were agreeing with me disagreeing with the previous poster's opinions on the L line.
This gives me an oppertunity to ask a good question.
I have been to NYC 3 times and explored all the boroughs a little bit on the subway. I would have to say I really wasn't scared or thinking why did I come here at any time on any of my trips. The walk from the Belmont Italian district to the Subway in the Bronx was a little rough, but if I would have stayed on main streets and not tried to take short cuts it would have been fine.
My question I have is, is there anywhere that you should avoid at all costs in NYC??? Something similar to 63rd/Ashland, Englewood, here in Chicago. I know you guys are sympathetic towards the subway and I am also towards the CTA L system. However, I always tell people that there is absolutely nothing to see in Englewood and because it's very dangerous to never ride the Green Line there day or night. I would recommend anywhere else on the CTA system for rail-faning during the day. On the other hand East 63rd/Cottage grove has some new developments and is changing into a very nice area. Also at the extreme east end of 63rd St. you have the beautiful Jackson Park and 63rd St. Beach. Not to mention you can also ride Metra Electric to 63rd St. about 3/4th mile east of East 63rd on the Green Line. This way you can still see the majority of the green Line on the south side and have something to do when you get off at East 63rd. Not to mention you can ride Metra one way and make the trip even more interesting.
It is not either because 63rd/Ashland or 63rd/Halsted are in bad condition, it is because of the neighborhood their in. Almost every-single day someone gets murdered in the Englewood neighborhood. I know people who live on the West side of Chicago in neighborhoods that are considered very dangerous who would never dream of even driving to Englewood let alone taking the L.
My question is, is it possible to specifically say to avoid certain NYC areas like Englewood here in Chicago at all cost or are all areas generally safe during the day-light hours???
Do LIRR engineers have stop markers on the platforms? I noticed that many of them pull their trains up to the platform edge even though there are a lot of people wating towards the middle, hence forcing them to walk up. This happens at huntington even during bad weather. We have to exit the protection of the canopy. If there are pulling 3 cars instead of 4, they still stop at the same spot.
Is it legal for the crew to stop the train short of the markers? Instead of pulling up to the end of the platform, they could stop sooner? The TA does that on shorter trains so why can't it be done on the LIRR? Does NJT or MN do this?
Short MNRR trains usually stop short of the end so the train lies roughly in the middle of the station. I don't know how the engineer does this, since there are no visvible car markers. Probably by experience with the length of each platform.
You can see signs on the LIRR. Usually they may be numbered: 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 6-10, 4-10, 8-10, 8-12, 10-12. They appear on the right hand side. However, these are just guidelines. They are not enforced, IIRC.
I once rode a train which stopped on Platform 10a at Birmingham New Street where the driver realised he'd made a mistake, closed up, then opened up again on Platform 10b.
Heh, you'd never see that happen on the subways!
On the subway, it is the conductor who ensures that the whole train is correctly platformed, by pointing to the zebras before opening the doors. Naturally the T/O must play his part by stoping at exactly the right place, and then enabling the doors.
On the LIRR it is the responsibility of the Engineer to stop the train so that all cars that are intednded to open are correctly platformed.
Elias
by pointing to the zebras before opening the doors
Or in NYCT terms the "jail bars".
I rode an LIRR train (aboard the locomotive) and the conductor leaned out to signal (patting his head and then holding up two fingers). He was telling us that he was using the head two cars and wanted us to stop shorther. Apparently they had not agreed on what cars they would be using before they left the station.
So how would the engineer know where to stop if he did not even know what equipment was in use.
It was however a pet peeve of mine, that the same train was never consistant on where he would stop coming into Merrick from one day to the next. It was my impressing that he came in quick and stoped wherever he stopped, though of course a 10 or 12 car train did have to platform correctly or as expected.
I suspect that those numbers (I never saw them myself, maybe they were not there in the early 80s) were just to let him know that he had to get past that place for the cars in use to platform.
Elias
It was however a pet peeve of mine, that the same train was never consistant on where he would stop coming into Merrick from one day to the next. It was my impressing that he came in quick and stoped wherever he stopped, though of course a 10 or 12 car train did have to platform correctly or as expected.
I suspect that those numbers (I never saw them myself, maybe they were not there in the early 80s) were just to let him know that he had to get past that place for the cars in use to platform.
The markers at Merrick center a train of M-1/3s on the platform. Unless you've got 12 cars, you can stop ahead or short of a marker and still have all doors on the platform.
Mark
Most westbound peak trains stop on the markers. This is why the regular commuters cluster in the places that they do.
Eastbound on 12 car platforms, some engineers stop on the markers while others use a bit of discretion in where they stop the train.
On shorter platforms, the markers seem to be used at all times.
CG
Most westbound peak trains stop on the markers. This is why the regular commuters cluster in the places that they do.
Also known as cows-at-the-slaughterhouse-chute half-moons.
I've noticed that some morning s/b weekend trains stop short of the beginning of the platform at Rahway on track 6. I've also seen this "short stop" happen at Linden. Also, on one occasion, an afternoon weekday n/b would have 14 Arrow III cars, thus making the engineer stop all the way to the next "catenary pole" ahead of the platform before stopping.
1) Do these "short stops" happen at other stations?
2) Why would an afternoon n/b weekday NJT have 14 cars to NY? (One other occasion I saw one of these going s/b at Metuchen)
3) Why do engineers perform "short stops" on some (not all) trains and on some station stops but not on others?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
4) If you mean not going all the way to the end of the platform, I believe the engineer stops where the majority of passengers are waiting. This practice occurs only at night. Had the experience with ARROW III m.u.'s at Broad Street-Elizabeth. 10 car train northbound and only first two cars platform at south end of station.
No. This happens also during the morning hours on Sundays. I'm not sure about Saturdays. Sunday afternoons are where 10-car trains can fully platform on Rahway, but I see your point.
Also, NJT runs few 6-car and 4-car trains which stop in the latter end of the platform regardless of passenger location. Sometimes while railfanning, I see passengers all the way up front walk back to the first car to board the train.
I've seen eastbound trains stop short of the platform end at Hamilton and then overshoot the Princeton Junction platform end by half a car to spread the passengers out. Otherwise most of them would be in SRO middle cars, with first and last cars nearly empty.
I heard a story about a schoolbus driver in Los Angeles Friday.
Supposedly: Schoolchildren (primary school) accuse a schoolbus driver of threatening to get them hit by a train when they refused to refrain from rowdy behavior on the bus.
Several children allege that the driver pulled the bus across a grade crossing and stopped. Allegedly, she threatened them and demanded they shut up. The crossing gates lowered, the lights began flashing and a train approached, blasting its horn. The schoolchildre then, allegedly, cried and screamed and begged the driver to move. I did not hear whether the train went BIE or not. The driver then, allegedly, moved the bus off the tracks, took the children back to school instead of home like she was supposed to do.
Does anybody know any details? Is any of this true?
Just Friday? It would surely be on Google news. I did a search for "los angeles school bus" and came up with a batch of stories, but none like yours.
I live in the LA area, and haven't seen or heard anything like this.
But I've heard that story before.
Maybe it's on urbanlegends.com....
OK gang, I finally watched the Warriors on TNN for the 1st time yesterday. I have a few questions:
Was the 96th street station the real thing?
Was the union square staion the real thing?
When they were walking through the tunnel, where was that shot?
Peace,
ANDEE
Was the 96th street station the real thing?
No. That was Hoyt/Schermerhorn re-signed
Was the union square staion the real thing?
Yes and no. The fight scene on the platform with the cops was filmed at Hoyt. Other scenes were filmed at Union Sq. I'm not sure if the bathroom they had their brawl in was a set or a real bathroom.
When they were walking through the tunnel, where was that shot?
The Court St. shuttle tracks.
The scenes filed on an "el" were done on the Broadway elevated between Eastern Pkwy and Myrtle Ave.
Hello,
Does anyone out there know what the work cars 36895 and 37366 are used for and if they are still self propelled? There are pictures of them on the site here.
36895 3-15-2002 R17
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i3000/img_3201.jpg
37366 2-10-2002 R21
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i3000/img_3284.jpg
I was curious since they don't have their windows covered over with steel plates or bars.
Thanks, Laddie Vitek
R-17 6895 is self propelled and was used in for non-passenger duties such as serving on the garbage train, and being used as a classroom for train operators and conductors. 6895 was operational when I rode the car in 1998. It currently resides at Concourse Yard. There is interest in preserving the car for the Transit Museum.
R-22 7366 is also self propelled and was used on the Signal Dolly Work Train. The Signal Dolly is used for distributing supplies to various points in the system (such as Towers). 7366 was retired from active duty in 2001, and was in the process of being scrapped.
-Stef
7366 is still wasting away in South Brooklyn yard; I don't think it's self-propelled any more ;).
I always thought of the terms Protestant and Catholic marriage of two subway cars permanently coupled as a cute term. I have not heard it lately.
What is more common the Catholic or permanent coupling or the Protestant marriage of two cars where the coupling can be broken without undue effort?
currently there are ONLY catholic cars
Well then, what was the last Protestant marriage subway model? Was it on the BMT?
How about this Protestant/Catholic pairing right now: R40M 4460 married to R42 4664? Except I don't know who the Protestant is and who the Catholic is!
The R-40M went to subway car Pre-Cana and is now Catholic like the R-42...;-)
Since they were both linked by drawbar from the start, both cars came from Catholic married pairs. The R-26s and R-28s were converted to Catholicism during GOH.
A mixed marriage?
Does that make the multiple link-bar arrangement a Mormon harem, or just an orgy?
:0)
No, the Morman cars are the R143's (but I guess it could be an orgy - maybe the R143's aren't married at all, and just living in sin.
Damn, this thread is going over the top........
LOL!
The 110Bs are officially the mormon cars...
The BMT ran three-car sets of el cars and standards for years.
Oh Good Grief!!!
a menage-a-trois!!!
Sometihng along those lines.:)
It was truly "An Affair To Remember!"
The remarried R42 is #4665 and (she) and #4460 (he) are both Catholic.
wayne
Well then the R32-38's must have converted to the Jewish religion after going through the bris during their rebuilds on their front ends.
Or is that the Jewish R40M's with their "modified" fronts?
LMAO!!!
It was the R-30 and yes, it was first assigned to the BMT.
The R-29s were the first so-called Catholic married pair cars.
So, we now have a trivia term that applies to something that doesn't exist anymore. Didn't know that, thanks for the input.
Mr t
Weren't the R32-42's also sort of "Protestant" as opposed to "Catholic"? (This is getting a bit silly). Anyway, did either end of those class cars have controls on either end of the cars (before rebuilding) like the R30's or did only one end have controls, and the pairs had to remain "married"?
The R-32s through R-42s were all linked by drawbar from the factory. OTOH the R-26s, R-27s, R-28s, and R-30s originally had couplers at both ends even though they were still married pairs; hence they could easily swap mates.
Thanks, that's what I wasn't sure about.
The R44 and R46s were origionally Prodestant, but like the 26 and 28s, they were converted into catholocism
Well, now that the 75-footers have been linked into four-car sets, you really can't call them married pairs anymore. Now it's a kind of Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice-type setup.
THEY'RE SWINGERS!!!
The R-44 and later (except for a bunch of R-62s and the R-68s on the Franklin S) are Mormon married pairs.*
*Contrary to popular belief, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has not allowed polygamy for quite some time; its outlawing was a condition of Utah's statehood in 1896. Only Mormon fundamentalists still practice it.
B division cars R32-R42: Catholic
A Division R33, R36 (all): Catholic
A Division R33S, R62A cars 1901-2155: Protestant
B Division, R44s and newer, and A Division R62 and newer (except for above mentioned R62As) can you say, orgy? (4 car sets B div. and 5 car sets A div.)
You wanna know when this gets really "illegal"? When the R160s come in!
IMHO single unit cars should be considered as "nondenominational" or "confirmed bachelors".:)
I guess that makes such a case for the Broad Street Line, which has a mixing of double-cab and single-cab cars, likely due to their five-car consists, and the two-car runs of the Ridge Spur.
I think the couplings on Regional Rail cars is easily broken... I've seen many mixings in the three-car sets, but the cars are "married"
Hmmm.... I wonder how it is for WMATA...
Wow, a three car Married Silverliner?!
All I've ever seen is 3 car the Silverliner IVs Married Pair + Single unit, with the single more or less termporary (two parents and a child? couple and a roomate?), or the Silverliner II and III's Three single units all coupled together (a true menage-a-trois if there ever was one).
Why don't we use the term "family" for the 4-and-5 car sets, with the low cab car number being the "father", the high cab car number being the "mother", and the UNDM/trailers between being the "children".
wayne
Good idea!
To the best of my knowledge, the terms Protestant & Catholic, as related to NYCT subway cars, are not use by any NYCT personnel. It seems to trivialize the religeons.
Organized religion, such as it is, is in no danger from cute and affectionate terms to describe the pairing of subway cars. Everyone knows these are not official NYCT terms. I'm sure the CTA (Chicago Transit Authority) never sanctioned railfans calling its 6000-series cars "spam cans", either. (Were the Hormel people aware of this use of their no-doubt unauthorized use of their trademark?)
Yeah, I think everyone was just having a little fun at this. I know it wasn't meant to offend anyone or their religions. It was not meant in serious context.
I hope George F. isn't comparing canned meat to organized religeon. As for my comment, I never intended to imply that some people on subtalk were deliberately being disrespectful towards those organized religeons. My main point was that the terms were not legitimately used in terms of NYCT subway cars. About the only such term I've ever heard was used to refer to mis-mated cars as "bastard pairs".
"I hope George F. isn't comparing canned meat to organized religion." That was the farthest thing from my mind.
forget the spam cans ... wonder how they reacted when junk e-mail got called spam ... and STUCK!
--Mark
A Catholic married pair is a set of two cars that cannot be uncoupled except with considerable effort. A Protestant married pair can be uncoupled fairly easily.
#3 West End Jeff
Your alittle late...
Better late than never. Hopefully a few people get the message and will know the difference between Catholic married pairs and Protestant married pairs.
#3 West End Jeff
I know that Ross Rowland had sold the 614 and it was placed on the auction block. Anyone know what has become of it since? Also, I read that he was looking into building a new type of steam locomotive in the 1980s called the ACE 3000. It was never built, but if it was, it would have looked like a cross between a U23B and the Jawn Henry turbine electric, with the exception of the running gear. Anyone know about this? Thanks.
The AEC 3000 was covered with a patent that is at least 40 pages long. It was a good concept on paper, but the hard facts of the economy set it.
Trains had a news item on the 614. I think it was moved recently.
the C@O 614 was not sold as nobody bid high enough.
NJT agreed to have engine leave the MMC and its now at Blue Mountain & Reading in storage.
for ACE 3000 page see :
it does takes a while to load.
the C@O 614 was not sold as nobody bid high enough.
NJT agreed to have engine leave the MMC and its now at Blue Mountain & Reading in storage.
for ACE 3000 page see :
http://www.trainweb.org/tusp/ace_det.html.
it does takes a while to load.
sorry other link somehow got screwed up.
http://www.trainweb.org/tusp/ace_det.html
sorry other link somehow got screwed up.
http://www.trainweb.org/tusp/ace_det.html
The Blue Mountain & Reading is now the Reading & Northern. This is a news release from their website concerning 614:
An interesting looking piece of rail equipment arrived with our cut of interchange cars from NS at Reading on Saturday May 25th. C&O 614 arrived on the RGPN-25 (Reading to Port Clinton turn job) and was set off at Port Clinton. To dispel a frenzy of recent rumors, the 614 will be at Port Clinton for long term storage only. There are no plans by the owners of 614 or the R&N to operate the steam engine in any capacity. The R&N has NO interest in the purchase of the steam engine but has agreed to store it for an undetermined length of time. Railfans are reminded that all grounds associated with the Reading and Northern Railroad are private property. Railfans and other interested parties must use common sense in regard to the respect of private property when viewing the 614.
The common sence means come on Sunday. The Port Clinton is deserted at that time with maybe the occasional freight snaking through. I also don't think the R&N people are anti-railfan what would probably let anyone who asked take pictures. Last time I was there I got a pic of the Reading T-1 that have in LTS as well as a CF-7 on an inbound freight.
The wording of the press release seems to be a 'quiet' way of saying 'If you ask nicely and sign a wavier, we'll let you get a a few really good angles'. Obviously, they don't want the floodgates open, but if they wanted people to stay away, they'd sure say it.
So let me get this straight. It's got nearly equal performance to a diesel 1/2 it's weight and 2x it's thermodynamic efficiency? To say nothing of a contemporary electric - an ALP-46 or HHP-8 can match it's projected performance (and beat it), while being considerably shorter, and less than 1/3rd the weight.
Steam died because it sucks compared to diesels or electrics. It just does. It's inefficient, dirty, maintenance instensive, and requires a lot of supporting infestructure (coaling towers, water tanks, a place to store the ashes...).
The ACE project had kicked around for a few years and has gone nowhere. I don't think anyone seriously expected it too. In1980, maybe it looked good as an absolute last ditch effort to avoid electrification (which was considered taboo even then) in the face of high oil costs, but today, it wouldn't even be considered purely on environmental grounds.
Diesels outperform steam anyway, AC traction diesels by a wider margin. IIRC, there reasons have to do with the diesel being effectively a constant HP locomotive, whereas the steam isn't. But that a diesel outdoes a steam is well documented.
Except at high altitudes like the Himalayas and Andes ... up there, steam's about the only thing that can "breathe" and still have some power to pull. Otherwise, you're absolutely right.
Diesels have still yet to match the most powerful steam engines in terms of power and haulability (aka "Q2 Power"). Of course it costs 20 times as much to do so.
BTW, please stop comparing electrics to everything. Yes they are better, but wide spread electrifacation is not going to happen.
I'm not into the technical or whatever power specs associated with
diesel vs steam. AFAX: When 614 did the excursion[s] on NJT/MNRR it
hauled 25 cars, only assist was an extra tender. The Northbound trip
was slower, because the excursion[s] followed a scheduled run from
Hoboken to Port Jervis. But the Southbound return to Hoboken, she
hauled a** with the same twenty five cars in tow. How many diesels
would be required to haul the same consist? >GG<
8-) Sparky
one or two at most. since even 614 was not doing commuter stops. the train would weigh only about as much as 30 freight cars, something one diesel can easely pull.
and since the consist had its own HEP car even a diesel would not have had to feed that load.
>>Diesels outperform steam anyway,<< perhaps, but for fin you might watch the video of UP 3985 with a stack train. The APL train comes into Chetenne w/4(5?) then modern diesels. 3985 replaced them solo. The footage of a Challenger effortlessly pulling 140 stacks is glorious. Mind you, I favor electrification, but steam is majestic.
That's good to know. I was reading that because of high insurance costs, a lot of steam excursions may be put on hold this year. SP 4-8-4 4449 will not run this year and Frisco 4-8-4 1522 had been forced into retirement back in September 2002.
"EXPL" plates are now on the PATH cars next to the lighted destination indicators. Anyone know when the station will open?
They're shooting for June. Based on the onsite activity looks like they'll make it.
Every couple of years, they close one side or the other of the Manhattan Bridge, causing total chaos. Wouldn't it be a lot easier if they just made some kind of simple junction at the north end in Manhattan for trains to switch over to the open side, so they don't have to completely cutoff service from either 6 Ave or Broadway over the bridge into Brooklyn? Just curious...
Well.... what is on the south side used to run on the north side before Christie street was invented to destroy the whole thing. In them days the south side went to Nassau Street and the North Side to Broadway.
After Christie... the Nassau Loop was disconnected, the south side was contrived to serve Broadway, and the north side was rebuilt to serve Sixth Avenue, thought in therory it could also serve Second Avenue, shoult that eventuallity ever come to pass.
The tracks are no loger extant, but clearly could be contrived that Bway could run either North or South, I do not know if the opposite may be possible or not.
But WHY! Get the IND out of SOUTH BROOKLYN! that is BMT Country!
Elias
Oh piffle ... it's one big happy Star Fleet. :)
Although one would wonder why they didn't connect up both sides to both lines to cover the eventuality of what's been going on ever since ...
The MTA actually considered that. The problem is that unless it was a flying junction, you'd really only be able to run service on one line anyway; without a flyning junction all the trains crossing over would slow things down.
The real solution is the one the MTA's planners proposed, but the politicians wouldn't even consider funding -- connecting the DeKalb tracks to the Rutgers tunnel. With a modification to allow trains from the north to to terminate at Grand, that would have allowed the TA to run a complete, high quality network with service to all stations during off peak hours without using the bridge at all. That would have allowed ongoing maintenance, and reduced wear and tear, prolonging its life.
Why am I not surprised? :(
But even without flyers, if one side was shut down, there'd be a way to win.
York Street is so deep, could you possibly make it to DeKalb and keep a 3 or 4 % grade ?
What is the ruling grade on NYCT, anyway....
(York Street is so deep, could you possibly make it to DeKalb and keep a 3 or 4 % grade ?)
Looking at my Hagstrom's, Dekalb to York looks like at least 4000'. Subtract 600' for one station length, and that gives you 3400'. Even at 2%, that allows a drop of 68'.
Actually you are wrong. A flat interlocking would not be that difficult for the Manny B. Basically it would be a giant 4 track sicsors X over, however, since it would only be used when one side of the Manny B is shut down it would be equivalent to a simple flat divergance of 2, 2-track lines, just like Myrtle Ave on the MJZ and that place where the 3 diverges from the 2 in Harlem. The use of movable point frogs would serve to speed trains through the x-overs.
(Basically it would be a giant 4 track sicsors X over, however, since it would only be used when one side of the Manny B is shut down it would be equivalent to a simple flat divergance of 2, 2-track lines, just like Myrtle Ave on the MJZ and that place where the 3 diverges from the 2 in Harlem.)
Well, you're right in a sense, they couldn't move 40 trains over two tracks on the bridge, so you'd have just 10 trains diverging from 20. Still, that's one train every six minutes crossing in front of both bridge tracks. It would still cause the trains to stack up.
BTW, I didn't know that the 2/3 divergence was an at-grade interlocking. Yuck!
Theoretically, the thing which limits a line to 40tph is the stations. Nothing much more could be run without the subsequent train "futtbucking" the one already in the station. Given a 30 second stop, including acceleration and deceleration, the minumum gap caused would be 1 minute - the equivalent of 60tph. Therefore, properly signalled, 30tph should be able to cross 30tph at grade, at least in theory. But both are branches of 2 tracks, so in this case we are only talking about at most 20tph crossing at most 20tph at grade. This might mean a bit of waiting for signals to clear, but it should be possible with a decent signal system (although it would seem a bit like a trolley system!).
But if you have trains waiting inthe same place at red signals for conflicting moves to clear, then wouldn't that part of the bridge wear out(again) first?
The MTA actually considered that. The problem is that unless it was a flying junction, you'd really only be able to run service on one line anyway; without a flyning junction all the trains crossing over would slow things down.
Full grade crossing junctions (configured as a Y) should not limit tph nor slow down the operating speed, as compared to a flying junction. T
Provided that NB and SB trains on each service are scheduled to coincide (not necessarily possible or desireable, given other constraints) and that schedules are upheld.
all the trains crossing over would slow things down.
If they slowed down any more on the Manny B, they'd stop.
Proving operational flexibility isn't a bad thing.
The bridge's current repair program looks like it will take care of the most important problem, so you're proposing a solution to a non-problem. However, operational flexibility is always a good thing, so long as it doesn't impose an unwelcome financial penalty on the TA (eg maintaining revenue tracks which aren't used).
Why don't you write to the TA and ask them, and post the agency's reply here?
The IND certainly had operational flexibility in mind.
That's one thing that's being built into Denver's light rail system - flexibility. Every major junction allows or will allow any train to take one of two possible routings from any direction. Granted there will be unused connections, but if the situation were to arise where a reroute was necessary due to an accident or temporary closure for some other reason, the show can go on.
I have the solution.
Connect all the bridges with light rail (trolley) tracks & vehicles (wood ones at that), (re)build the Second Ave El as a light rail structure, connect all the bridges (Brooklyn, Manhattan, Williamsburg, Queensboro & Triboro) to it and have an great tourist attraction. Connect the Triboro bridge line to a new light rail structure in the Bronx, north to Bronx Park and the Zoo. Same thing in Brooklyn, all the way out Flatbush. Using the triboro bridge would facilitate a Bronx/Queens (light) rail connection.
In time (very shortly), the current rubber tired vehicular (truck) traffic and vibrations will render all of these bridges usless except for pedestrian use.
The city really needs to get all the heavy vehicles off the bridges.
After reading the article about the 2nd Ave El on the Thrird Rail site, I think 2nd Ave is the key to future use of the bridges.
The subway, if it is ever finished and connnected will not do anything for the bridges.
This could only be done, assuming it would not compromise the bridge structure in some way, if the three highway lanes on the lower deck were closed. This won't happen.
Let me rephrase that.
The configuration at the north (west) end of the bridge would allow trains running on the A/B tracks to go to either 6th Avenue or Broadway.
The south side configuration would allow Brodaway or Nassau Street, but not 6th Avenue.
Making the north side configuration flexible would require a grade crossing on an incline, which I think the TA would not want to do.
In light of my recent post on R142 vs. R142A, I thought that another IRT comparison was needed. So, what are the differences?
Floors....
R62 Black
R62A Grey or Tan
Outside speakers?
R62 Yes
R62A No
Outside speakers?
There is no such mention of a feature on either car in NYCSubway's R62/A section.
The R-62s were retrofitted with exterior speakers about 10 years ago.
David
Gobble--gobble--gobble!!
8->
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Then why doesn't NYCSubway (or any other NYC transit fan website) mention this?
All R-62's still have latches to keep the storm doors open. R-62A's only have them in operating positions (i.e., either end of a five-car set and either end of a single).
The rectangular sliding windows across from the cabs can still be opened on the R-62's but not on the R-62A's.
The lighting seems a bit dimmer on the R-62's. I don't know why. Fewer light bulbs? Dimmer light bulbs? Dirtier covers? (The R-62's are slightly older.) Less reflective car interiors (due to the floors)? My imagination?
R62A cars 1686-1690 and 2033 have black floors in them.
R62A cars 1686-1690 and 2033 have black floors in them. BTW, are R62s and R62As compatible as R68s and R68As are compatible?
yup... I have seen a picture of an R22 runing with an R62A... Hows that for a salad train...?
R62 R62A
Kawasaki Bombardier
Japanese Canadian
Westinghouse controller General Electric Controller
4 train 1,9,3,5,7,S Trains
Outside Speakers Only Inside Speakers
Best MDBF Second Best MDBF
No More Railfan Window Few Railfan Windows Remain
Large Fonts on side roll signs Small Fonts on side roll signs
Very Fast Semi-Fast
Loveable Likeable
Dependable Dependable
I added a few subway pics on my webpage.
Some side R-32/38 sign settings, an original "Times Sq." station sign on the BMT, an original "DOWN TOWN EXPRESS TRAINS" sign with arrow on the s/b IRT Times Square platform (don't bother looking for it; it's gone now), and a railfan view of the West End from a slant R-40. Enjoy!
Wow, I like the mechanical crank that changes the tracks. I assume none of those exist anymore in the NYC Subways anymore? What about LIRR or MNRR?
I'm sure there's still some hand-throws out in the yards still, bad idea on revenue trackage though. That's my missus there if you're referring to the "bingbong" picture there. She was kinda enough to provide me a diverge so I could get an Arnine out for folks to play with that day. :)
You were wearing your work face in that pic of you at the handles.:)
I look like that when I drive a car too. :)
A face only a mother could love...on paydays! LOL!
Yeah, well mother STILL threw me a diverge, the hard way. Gots me a foamer sweetie, and she's beefo enough to throw a pair of rails over to the other side to let me have my way. Can't complain even *IF* I be butt ugly. :)
And yeah, she cashed the check. She delirious.
Don't tell me you say moo when you're driving.:)
Nah, usually have my head out the window panting. Woof. :)
^^^"I'm sure there's still some hand-throws out in the yards still"^^^
IIRC, Rockaway Parkway & Fresh Pond still use hand trows. And a
location on a revenue line, where you would not expect to find a
hand trow is on the Shuttle at Grand Central on the westbound side
of track 3 which is a HAND TROW. >GG<
;-) Sparky
I'm not the LEAST bit surprised, in all sincerity. CIY was full of hand-throws also, as was E180 and a few other places of NON-REVENUE RAIL. So stuff THAT in yer stovepipe, Mister Branford. You can't IMAGINE the embarassment of *MOI* (TISH! You spoke FRENCH!) when I had to wait while you butt paraded like a damned trolley in front of my grunting, hissing Arnine while you took yer sweet TIME crossing the iron, reaching up and punching the damned CALL-ON for me. Yep, I'm an INGRATE and damned proud OF it. And I'll *DO IT AGAIN!* Fuzzer. :)
But yeah, Unca Steve went and snagged Bingbong throwing the steel better than the rest of us. Damned railroaders should be ASHAMED. Not *ONLY* could Nancy throw iron better than you guys, she ran 1689 better than *ANY* of us, and I have MIGHTY fragile male ego. She made us look like street beaches. Heh. I'm ashamed of us ALL. Heh.
^^^"Unca Steve went and snagged Bingbong throwing the steel better than the rest of us."^^^
The iron at Shephard is easier to trow, than some of the other
diversions at BERA. >GG<
8-) Sparky
The day we were there, it was a bit fussy. Then again, the entry to the mainline from the high level was particularly finicky until it got a good hard shove. Then it too behaved. Love that "up and over and down" operator. Quite unique. :)
Yeah, Nancy got 1689 rolling merrily along at E above middle C on the straightaway. Now you know why I would have liked to have an outbound run at the handles.:)
You're a lucky man, Kev.
I know. I'm reminded often. :)
With Railfan photography becoming increasingly difficult (see the latest issue of TRAINS magazine) - I think I found the perfect camera:
Casio Color Wrist Camera
Not bad at all ! I remember thier first "wrist watch BW cam "
it was only a few years ago .........!!!!!!
THE NEW COLOR WATCH CAM MUST BE A GREAT INPROVEMENT !!
"176 x 144 pixels"
Better forget about those 8x10 prints ... or 3x5s ... or wallet size .. or ...
Just to give you an idea of how small that is, here is a 176x139 pixel image of Woodhaven Tower in 1931:
I'll wait for the next version of this camera ;-)
I think I saw Elroy wearing something like that on a Jetsons cartoon once. His teacher in school took it away.
The only thing I see is that 176x144 I think the image size was, not even suitable really for posting on a website. With a lot of people nowadays using like 800x600 or higher, that's not going to fill much of the screen. And many details will be lost.
Can someone provide a summary of the applicable part of Trains magazine - it's a bit hard to find here.
Thanks,
Robert King
I was referring to the cover story
Can you give me a rundown of the article? As I said, I haven't been able to find that magazine here.
-Robert King
I only skimmed through it - it tells the story of a railfan who was taking pictures out West somewhere and his wife was visited by the FBI while he was in the field. Still others were detained and questioned for doing nothing more than taking pictures of trains from public property. The article also indicates that the new Office of Homeland Security might be in the process of writing regulations for railfanning and other hobbies.
Thanks for the nutshell version; I've tried several large bookstores downtown and still haven't been able to find a copy of Trains yet. I'd still like to get one just so I can read the article for myself.
I'm not keen on the idea of regulating hobbies in this manner. On the other hand, there may be a beneficial aspect of some degree of regulation because it would concretely set out what is and isn't permissible and would put an end to authorities overstepping their bounds because they'd be clearly defined. However, this does assume the best case scenario of a regulated environment, that the regulations are relaxed and don't interfere with your freedoms (to the most minimal degree possible). I do have the suspicous feeling that if regulations are implemented, that they will be much more draconian than that. Perhaps even to the extent that the authorities won't be overstepping any boundaries at all if they start arresting, detaining and interrogating people photographing trains.
-Robert King
>>> On the other hand, there may be a beneficial aspect of some degree of regulation because it would concretely set out what is and isn't permissible and would put an end to authorities overstepping their bounds because they'd be clearly defined. <<<
The real problem is that the limits are now well defined, no trespassing on private property, but photography from a public place is O.K. It will be absolutely not be helpful to have new regulations making what is now legal, illegal.
>>> I do have the suspicous feeling that if regulations are implemented, that they will be much more draconian than that. Perhaps even to the extent that the authorities won't be overstepping any boundaries at all if they start arresting, detaining and interrogating people photographing trains. <<<
They are likely to be the type that leave it to the discretion of local officials to determine what could be photographed. Something like "No photography of railroad tracks or trains or signals without express permission of an officer of the railroad responsible for security."
Tom
The point I was trying to make was that I'm against regulations if they make currently legal activities illegal.
Another point I was trying to make was that it may be a good thing if regulations nail down for everybody to understand that what is legal IS LEGAL.
-Robert King
I suppose I have some good news to report, then. Yesterday I took 120 photos of the Times Square complex (during the afternoon rush, no less), a few in the presence of police officers, and nobody bothered me.
here is a spy cam from sony thier new U cameras .........
anyone out there seen this one .?...........lol !
******* >>>>>here it is .........lol !
I COULD NOT GET THE UPLOAD FROM THE SONY STYLE SITE .......oh well !
tried to upload the image maybe some other site can do it
anyway go to the SONY STYLE site
go to digital cameras and look ant the U cameras
using 2 aaa batteries they are the smallest full function digital
camera out there !!
much better than a casio watch .........!!
i will get one and shoot a lot of rail transit shots with it 4 sure
www.SubwayInfo.com
Provides Door-To-Door Subway Directions
I would like to announce the launch of a new site, www.SubwayInfo.com. This Web site will give you subway directions from anywhere in New York City to anywhere in New York City.
Email: info@subwayinfo.com
Web Site: www.SubwayInfo.com
Very impressive!!! My only slightly negative comment is that it is perhaps a bit too willing to make you transfer trains even when you check off "fewest transfers".
From 10th St and 2nd Ave in Manhattan to a place along the Culver Line in Brooklyn it told me to walk to the F at 2nd Ave., as it should have.
From 11th and 2nd, it told me to take the L at 3rd Ave and 14th over to the F. That saves me 1/4 mi of walking (5 mins) but requires 2 stops on the L plus 3 more stops on the F (probably close to 15 mins), despite my checking "fewest transfers".
Thank you. However, I am concerned that the SubwayInfo.com site did not give optimum directions. If you send me the addresses you used along with the travel time, I will see if we can make it perform better.
Thanks again for you comments.
Edward Garrity
www.SubwayInfo.com
Thanks!! This is more convient for me, if Im leaving from Home, but I always carry a Subway Map.
Received an 'Application Error' when I tried it.
"Your search SubwayInfo.Com returned no results" >GG<
8-) Sparky
Works fine for me.......
SAME RESULTS AS PREVIOUS POST:
"Your search SubwayInfo.Com returned no results"
Maybe someone will post a link THAT WORKS. >GG<
8-) Sparky
Try this
When I put in "www.subwayinfo.com", my computer changes it to numbers for some reason.
Chris,
Thank you, it worked and did convert to numbers also. See ya later.
Honna go play. >GG<
8-) Sparky
Typo ~ Sorry!!!
Honna = Gonna >GG<
8-) Sparky
I tried it. Nice.
But the best subway directions ever, are on the first page of the short story "Only The Dead Know Brooklyn" by Thomas Wolfe.
You must have be using a DNS that doesn't recognize the site for some reason.
It's designed for cars, i.e. it tells me to walk around the block rather than opposite the one-way street direction.
It seems to need a lot of work. For the starting point I entered several valid addresses near Kings Highway on the Brighton line (Q train), and it didn't recognize any of them. In addition, when I entered 1625 Avenue U, which is only a few feet away from Avenue U on the Brighton, your site suggested that I instead walk to Neck Road.
while I have tried it yet, I suspect they are using software similar to what is offered on bayareatransitinfo That one failed to accept location dirtectly on bus routes, instructed extra bus transfers which induce delays, and other 'typical' glitches. But for someone who doesn't know, its a start. We can only hope they improve it.
I'm actually quite impressed. Yes, it does seem to "drive" you to the subway, adhering to 1-way streets, and it is pretty quick to put you on an extra subway rather than have you walk a short distance more. But I personally haven't been able to give it any address it doesn't recognize, and it's never given me garbage as a route.
I played with it last night already, and was pretty impressed also. Although it didn't recognize many real address I put in. And when it didn't recognize a specific address, it just used the street, and sometimes the directions would send you across town to a totally different end of the street and stations from the address you originally put in. But all in all I think it's a nice little system.
I just tried it with a real street address going to Grand Central Station, 110 East 42nd Street or from
Subway Station at 85 Nassau Avenue in Brooklyn.
Peeing In My Pants Laughing at the directions for various applications
by time and amount of walking/transfers/quickest.
Chris thanks for the directions to get into the sight, have to have a
good rolling laugh on occasion. >GG<
8-) Sparky
It seems to have got Broadway on the Crosstown Line and Broadway on the Astoria Line conflated into one station... talk about a long walk!
Yes, and that was the only one that put me at Grand Central on the
Lexington Avenue Line. All others directed me to 42nd Street &
Sixth Avenue by different routings. None of which were the
easiest.
8-) ~ Sparky
Out of interest, what's quickest anyway?
- G to Court Sq, Metrocard Transfer to 7 to GCT
- G to Court Sq to E/V at 23rd Ely to Lex/51 to 6 to GCT
- G to Metropolitan/Lorimer to L to Union Sq to 4/5 to GCT
- G to Broadway, walk to the J/M at Lorimer to the 4/5 at Chambers to GCT
- G to Hoyt Schermerhorn to A/C to Fulton/Bway-Nassau to 4/5 to GCT
(Out of interest, what's quickest anyway?)
2 trains are almost always quicker than 3, except when one of the 2 trains almost never comes, or there's a huge walk in the transfer. Also, direct routes are almot always faster than the ones that go a few miles out of the way.
So that strikes me as a no-brainer: G to 7 to GCT.
The directions it gave me from my house in the Beford Park section of the Bronx to 151 W. 34th st in Manhattan were totally ridiculous. It directed me to the 205th street Subway station in the Bronx, 8 blocks away, instead of the Beford Park Blvd. station, 2 blocks away. It then told me to take the D train to 42nd Street get off and walk the rest of the way. Travel time of 70 minutes, trip never takes more than 50 minutes. Needs some work, I'd say.
Peace,
ANDEE
PS: The reverse directions were OK.
Peace,
ANDEE
Did you select the correct time zone for your trip? The directions for AM Peak, for example, will be different than the directions for Weekend Evening. The program takes into account which trains run during those times. That may be why the return trip was closer to what you expected.
If you send me the details of what you entered, I will see if the problem can be corrected.
Thank you for the feedback.
When I tried to go from two different street addresses in the Bronx and Queens to MTA HQ (347 Madison Av, NY NY 10017) all I got was a blank screen with my addresses listed at the bottom.
The program needs a little debugging.
Also, I just discovered, it does not work with OPERA.
Peace,
ANDEE
I need to know if you SubTalkers can view my NYC Subway BVE Website:
NYCTBA Website
I notice I can't view the website at all, I might have to transfer my website to www.megspace.com
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
It's THERE, but Lycos is apparently one of MANY sites under attack at the moment. There's some incredibly nasty things going on right now across the internet and traffic in a number of places is impossible, depending on how much asian/middle east traffic is exposed. This has been going on for a few days now and tonight is kinda over the top for it.
I am getting a can not find server message
Ok Thanks !! I think Im gonna move into www.megspace.com, they offer 50 MB of space and Unlimited Bandwidth.
How much are they charging? Unless its FREE, their deal can't possibly be better than cyberpixels.com-they offer 300 MB and 10 GB bandwidth for only $8/a month. That's where I host my site's 313 pictures (and, hopefully someday, my fantasy NYC Trainz layouts-if I ever finish any of them).
Well megspace.com offeres unlimited bandwidth and 50 MB of Space, I don't need anymore space than that for right now. Megspace.com
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
If you look at the lower left portion of the picture, you will notice something interesting (if you work for the TA, ya might know about this already).
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3211796664&category=35
Ho ho ho ho In The Hole. April Fools. CI Peter
The MTA's Subtalk has been around a lot longer, look at this article from the New York Times, which clearly predates the establishment of nycsubway.org:
"The subway now has an on-time record of 90 percent. That's better than a lot of clocks."
"Every subway car is now new or overhauled. Don't you wish you could say that about yourself?"
"Weekend 'A' trains now come more often. If only weekends did, too."
What's this? Clever, even funny ads on New York City's subway cars, that's what. The ads are part of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority's "subtalk" campaign aimed at building ridership.
Meanwhile the Transit Authority, the local arm of the M.T.A., has embarked on its own promotional campaign called "Poetry in Motion." Devised by Gannett Outdoor New York, an advertising business, with an assist from the Poetry Society of America, the T.A.'s ads display verses from Emily Dickinson, Walt Whitman's "Crossing Brooklyn Bridge" and others.
The ads are cheerier and more literate than the usual fare, like the posters touting laser surgery for hemorrhoids and clinics that repair torn earlobes. The larger point, however, is that the M.T.A. and T.A. have earned the right to toot their own horns.
In 1984 they vowed to erase graffiti, refurbish old cars and buy sleek new ones. They did it all. In a city where the simplest projects seem to take forever, the completion of a formidable task is not only a tribute to the two agencies. It's a big boost to public morale.1
1"Poetry in the Subways," Topics of the Times, New York Times 18 Dec. 1992, late ed.: A38
That's very interesting!
Yeah, and so far they haven't complained.
FYI:
THe last 20 R-32s left at Coney Island, and used on the N, are:
3598/3599, 3602/3603, 3608/3609, 3622/3623, 3626/3627,
3638/3639, 3648/3649, 3724/3725, 3808/3809, 3816/3817.
Any and all observations would be greatly appreciated. When these are transferred, it will no longer be possible to see R-32s on the N. They have also turned up on the W weekends on occasion.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Add: 4520-9 replaced one of the R32 consists not mentioned in your post.
Where else are the R32s assigned today? I realize the E has the biggest group, plus I've seen them on the C and R. But anywhere else? There are still about 590 active cars in the group.
They are also on the A line
And the F line has been seeing a few of these a day.
Jamaica & Pitkin only. That limits their use to the E/F/G/R/V/A/C
I saw an R-32 set on the N this afternoon at 5:00 at Times Square (SB), north motor 3623.
No More R32 on the N? ARE YOU SERIOUS? Since 9/8/02, I only seen no more than 2 R32 pop up on the W.
we should make a poll not subtalk but nycsubway.org, on the best car class, line, in each category, like have a poll for cleanliness, announcement, crowding, usefullness, tph, the actual line, the cars ect
My thread about the Wacky Packages is GONE!! I was having so much fun with it. A few other Sub/Talkers were having a good time with it too. Who ever pulled the thread, spoiled all the fun. DRAT!!!! Oh Well!!
#3 West End Jeff
Musta been Unca Dave. The thread was as off-topic as any.
Gotta keep that rail content.
I know that the thread was off topic, but Unca dave spoiled the fun. I guess that we can't have everything. Oh Well.
#3 West End Jeff
At least you can now have an equally OT thread about deleted OT threads!
This OT thread about OT threads might continue until it is too deleted.
#3 West End Jeff
join my redbird msn group if you want to
especailly those who appreciate the more traditional type of
railcar the r36 & older irt fleet was .......
enter this into your url
paste then join ............... enjoy !! .........thankz ......
http://groups.msn.com/Redbirds
http://groups.msn.com/Redbirds
International News - March 2, 2003
Italian Cop Killed in Train Shootout
March 2, 2003 11:58 PM EST
ROME - A wanted Red Brigades terrorist whose false identity papers were being checked by police on a train started shooting Sunday, killing one officer and wounding another before he was gunned down, authorities said.
The gunman's female companion, another alleged Red Brigades member, also was arrested, Italian state television said.
The Italian news agency ANSA said doctors and other staff were refusing to give any information of the death of Mario Galesi, whom the Italian interior minister Giuseppe Pisanu recently described as a Red Brigades terrorist wanted in connection with the 1999 slaying of a labor reform adviser to the Italian government.
The woman passenger, state television reported, refused to answer investigators' questions after she was arrested, declaring only that she was a "political prisoner," a throwback to the stance of members of the extreme-left Red Brigades gang, which terrorized Italy in the 1970s and 1980s with kidnappings and assassinations.
The ultra-leftist group arose out of the student protest movement of the late 1960s. Its ideology advocated class warfare and revolution, and most of its attacks targeted politicians and businessmen.
Later, it advocated Italy's withdrawal from NATO.
Authorities warned that the extreme-left Red Brigades could be planning new attacks to coincide with a U.S.-led war on Iraq.
After a decade of calm when it was widely believed the Red Brigades had been largely wiped out, the slayings of two government advisers since 1999 have sparked fears that the group had revived.
Sunday's shooting occurred as two policemen checked the identity papers of the two passengers on the early morning local train from Rome to Florence.
"The passenger put a gun to the head of one of the policemen and fired," an unidentified witness in the largely empty car told Italian state radio. "Then he fired several more shots" at the second officer, who suffered a serious lung wound.
A top national police official, Alessandro Pansa, told reporters the gunman opened fire "because they were afraid about the checks on the documents, which weren't clean." He did not say whether the documents were stolen or if the names on them were invented.
It was not clear whether the policemen approached the pair because they recognized them, were suspicious or were carrying out a random check.
Italian police can demand identification under anti-terrorism legislation enacted when the country was battling domestic terrorism from the extreme right and left in the 1970s and 1980s.
State television quoted investigators as saying the pair likely was planning an attack. Besides the pistol, the couple had a miniature camera hidden in a cigarette package, the report said.
RAI state television said the companion was identified as Nadia Desdemona Lioce, 43. Other news reports said the gunman was Mario Galesi, 37, and both suspects were wanted for the 1999 slaying on a Rome street of Massimo D'Antona, a labor reform consultant for the government.
The killing of D'Antona was the first Red Brigades attack in 11 years. Last year, gunmen in Bologna gunned down another labor reform consultant, Marco Biagi, outside his apartment building.
Enzo Bianco, the head of the Italian Parliament's oversight committee on secret services, warned that the Red Brigades and an associated terrorist group, the Fighting Communist Party, "could broaden the scope of their possible
The medical examiner found evidence of 54 more bodies in the remains. Still no word as if the deaths were caused by fumes of fire.
When was the express service on the West Farms El implemented? And also when did 4 trains start skipping 138th?
Today's edition of DESTINATION:FREEDOM has many interesting articles on northeast-area rail projects. The table of contents is below; I've highlighted some of the topics mentioned often on SubTalk. Click here to access the newsletter.
* The National Corridors Initiative’s 2003 Conference
* Bay state signs deal: New commuter rail operator in Boston
* House subcommittees support railroad, airport connections links
* Hutchison pledges to fight for Amtrak
* S&P may cut Amtrak’s ‘BBB-minus’ rating
* The ‘fat lady’ has not sung (Downeater 79mph story)
* Rails spread under Texas GulfLiner
* Amtrak looks to cut jobs
* Amtrak continues Missouri service
* Ohio could lose all Amtrak service under Bush’s plan, say Ohioans
* Augusta looks for trains
* Georgia solon looks for fast-tracks cash
* Commuter lines…
* Greenbush restoration hits a snag
* Blue Line expansion to Lynn inches forward
* Connecticut stations scaled back; Shore Line East is in a service quandary
* PATH writes WTC station timetable
* JFK rail link may be ready by June
* Third track ‘not derailed,’ says LIRR
* D.C. Subway may see longer hours
* Charlotte’s trolleys aren’t what the used to be
* Minnesotans pitch commuter rail to governor
* Hastert helps Metra extend route
* Economic engine must fuel new line
* Albuquerque unveils light rail plan
* FTA okays California rail corridor pact
* A California idea; Developers look for commuters; build homes near new stations
* West Seattle merchants unhappy over monorail
* APTA Highlights…
* Policy Forum Showcases Research Supporting Federal Transit Investment
* Coalition of Local Officials Urges Increased MPO Control Over TEA 21 Funds
* Howlett Named President of Rotary Lift
* Charles Shannon Dies; VIA Board Chair
* House T&I Committee Names Leadership, New Members
* Transit Rallies as East Coast Digs Out from Severe Snowstorm
* Congress Funds Federal Transit Program at $7.2 Billion in FY 2003
* Sound Transit Wins Constitutional Challenge Against Initiative 776
* ATC Appoints Two New General Managers
* Labor lines…
* Labor fears for Amtrak workers
* Where does the retirement cash come from?
* Station lines…
* Culpeper depot, 98, gets funding to finish repairs
* Desolate Berkeley station to get makeover
* Freight lines…
* CSX moves to Jacksonville
* Rail industry lobbies Capitol Hill
* CSX completes sea lines sale to equity firm
* NS says territory benefited from development
* Beans, of all things: NS finds unique way to longer track life
* Wichita corridor project ready for bids
* FEC wants to merge two stock classes
* Texas solon wants to add freight line to highway route
* Winter storm takes bite out of rail traffic
* Selected Friday closing quotes...
* Canadian lines…
* Canadians at odds over proposed amendments
* Overseas lines…
* Bombardier opens China offices
* ALSTOM to refurbish Atlanta cars
* South Korea subway toll now 189
* Shinkansen engineer falls asleep
* Off the main line…
* Less smog from cog railway
* The way we were...
* End notes...
Thank you. I've added this link to my favored bookmarks.
Even Republicans are getting into the act.
Thanks, Todd,
I find especially interesting more details on the fact that we're going to have an outdoor PATH station in lower Manhattan, at least temporarily...
(I find especially interesting more details on the fact that we're going to have an outdoor PATH station in lower Manhattan, at least temporarily... )
The article says "roofed but not fully enclosed or heated"
From what I see of the construction going on, there isn't likely to be much natural light in the station. Sort of like Penn if you go all the way to the west end of the platforms.
That sucks, they should build at least ONE terminal in NYC that's got a glass ceiling to the open sky, and an 'open' atmosphere to it.. GCT is a GREAT terminal, but even it's trainshed is a dump. I hope MN gets around to cleaning (and lighting!) it up nicer some day....
Destination Freedom has a lot of interesting material. I just wish that whomever supports their web site learned how to separate each article into a single page…
Hidden amongst the announcements was that PATH intends to support Metrocard for fare payments by late 2003/early 2004. I think this is great news: one less card to carry around in the wallet. However, I wonder how this will work in the contect of:
NJT ticket machines (most of them) dispense multi-trip PATH cards. Will they be retrofitted for metrocards? Will they just dispense fixed-value cards (ie no recharging/replacement)?
Stay tuned…
The was an article in the NY POST today that mentioned that the path will soon accept metrocard
http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/69801.htm
"Meanwhile, MetroCards are expected to get "smarter" next year.
The MTA and Port Authority are working on a new automated system that would give PATH riders the chance to use a SmartCard to pay their fare.
Both agencies are working on a system where MetroCards could also be used on PATH trains - a plan that would benefit New Jersey commuters who transfer to MTA-operated buses and subways"
It would be smart for the MTAA to sell path the cuurent turnsyles it is removing to install HEET's
It would be smart for the MTAA to sell path the cuurent turnsyles it is removing to install HEET's
Not really. I think the PATH/MTA collaboration will only happen with the next generation of Metrocard...some kind of contactless RF transmitter system. But that's only my opinion. And I haven't read the articles yet.
---Brian
Maybe that's why the MTA is trying to get riders to keep refilling their cards, instead of discarding them.
The only modification that is needed is a new RF-Reciever to be added to the current metrocard. The physical turnstyle has nothing to do with the type of metrocard used. The TA will have plenty of extra surplus turnstyles that PATH could put to good use.
The RF-Recieves is tiny and could be placed right next to the current metrocard swipe area
Does anyone know the diameter of the wheels on the R29's?
Last Weekend Service Changes poster regarding the 3 section L line G.O.:
"Trains runs in three sections- ....between Rockaway Park and Bedford Ave."
Is NYCT so confused between Rockaway Parkway and Rockaway Park, or did I miss a secret flyover linking Broadway Junction on the L, directly through a tunnel to the A and C lines at Liberty Ave?
Naw, its just one of their thousands of mistakes, like the route for the B20 on the Brooklyn bus map for the last ten years (Schaeffer St is closed!) But I like the sound of that Atlantic Av-Liberty Av connection, though...
No, they tore down the el on Pitkin that connected the Canarsie Line to the Liberty Av El a few years ago.
Yeah, like 40+ years ago.
It'll be 47 years ago this July 4th weekend.
Wow. Did they start demolition at the stroke of midnight on the day after service closed in '56? Abandoned els usually stick around for a year or two (or 10 for the Culver Shuttle).
Prbably started tearing down the Fulton St El after the holiday weekend.
"Is NYCT so confused between Rockaway Parkway and Rockaway Park, or did I miss a secret flyover linking Broadway Junction on the L, directly through a tunnel to the A and C lines at Liberty Ave?"
Actually, there is a tunnel veering off to the left (nb side), just south of the Bway-ENY Station of the "A" "C". I believe that either leads or used to lead to the Bway Junction yard.
If you're talking about the tunnel heading/blowout, I read in one of the History of the IND that it was to have been a branch that would have ran along Jamaica Ave. I never read it in any of the websites for the IND Second System or anywhere else for that matter.
So, then this too is a mistry, like "76th ST. Station, Who didn't do it.
I think it was for a Jamaica El capture.
avid
Does anyone know the exact. lengths of the Manhattan Bridge (tracks), and the Montague, 53, 60, and 63 St Tunnels?
Sorry, can't help you on these, but I do know that the 7's East River Tunnel (Steinway) is approx 1.6 miles long (with 0.8 miles underwater).
I just renewed my MBTA Photo Permit (after a year's lapse), with no problem. It was quick and easy. Go to the 6th Floor of 10 Park Plaza (nearest Green Line station = Boylston or Arlington), and find the Marketing and Communications Department (you'll need to show ID and sign-in at the second floor guard station). They'll take care of it for you. The permit specifies you must be in public areas only, and no flash, floodlight, or tripod usage allowed.
While at 10 Park Plaza, be sure to look up George Sanborn in the MBTA Library on the second floor (he's also the MBTA Historian and a Senior Trustee of the Seashore Trolley Museum). He always has great stories to tell.
Todd, Thanks for the very valuable input !
Mr t
What a mono, bi or quadrapod?
Effective at Midnight on March 17th, CSX Seneca yard will cease operations as a cost cutting measure, most of its work shifted to the nearby Frontier yard. The former NYC yard located on the south side of Buffalo near CP-5 on the Chicago Line was located at the junction of the former PRR/CR Buffalo Line, now owned by NS.
Hopefully the recent tax legislation passed in NY will stop CSX frop ripping out the tracks and whatnot and there's a chance that the yards proximity to the NS Buffalo Line, NS Nickle Plate Line and several other shortlines might see alternative uses for the yard.
If the SW1500 were equipped with HEP generators, how would they perform on the tracks? HP? Fuel tank capacity? Supplemental aspects would be helpful.
What is the capacity of the HEP generator? For commuter operations you're looking at 400-700kw which is like 300-500hp taken off the engine leaving like 1000 available for traction. That'll be enough for a 3-6 car commuter train, reaching speeds of 65-80mph with acceleration that might be a bit iffy.
A lot iffy. There's a 15 - 20% transmission loss on top of that. That leaves about 800hp at the wheel, which over 3 - 6 cars wouldn't be a lot.
Max engine output is %10 higher than the rated hp to account for auxilliary equipment and transmission loss. For example, the new NJT diesel has a 4200hp engine with a c.750kW HEP takeoff. The power at rail figure was quoted at 3620 which is exactly 4200 - HEP.
Its been this way since the early 50's.
Anyway, back in the day on the PRSL, 1500hp Baldwins would haul 9-12 P-70's at up to 85mph.
IIRC, the MP-15s the LIRR used are SW1500s with 'road' trucks, and alternator/rectifier instead of a DC generator (less sparking, longer life). The LIRR ran them at 65max, due to braking considerations, and they'd hit that speed, but with 5 or 6 cars they'd take a LONG time to get there, even on flat land. I don't recall the exact weight of the demotored MP-72/75 cars, but I believe it was actually sub 100,000 lbs, so it's a light train. The DE-30s can outpace them by far, but then, I recall the GP-38 could beat them too. They tended to be stuck on the Oyster Bay line and other out of the way places where they'd stay out of trouble.
I guess for a small service (like, 3 cars) with long distances (say 5 or 10 miles) between stops and few grades/restrictions, it could make sense, but with a 2 or 3 or even 4 car train, the argument for DMU operation is strong (and even stronger as station spacing drops), though if you were running in non or poorly signalled trackage with proximity to large freights, a loco at each end would allow at least some protection, though there's really no excuse for a train - train collision in this day and age, anywhere, regardless of equipment.
You are right about the MP15's. You rarely saw a train without a GP38 on the Montauk/Patchogue or Port Jefferson trains. On the contrary, you quite often saw to MP15's (and no GP38-2) on the Oyster Bay branch or the Greenport to Ronkonkoma run --- like you said, probably to stay out of trouble.
Interestingly as a sidenote, I seem to remember sometimes in the winter two lone parlor cars (with the red stripes) sandwiched between 2 MP15's quite often on the weekend Greenport Scoot, when the parlor cars were not really often used on the Montauk Branch in the winter. No regular cars on those runs!
Oh heavens.....
Southern Pacific used to pull two gallery cars with one GP-9 (1750hp IF it was all there....) And that GP-9 would be straining at the gills. The train could barely keep schedules.
And if the train was three or more cars, they'd try to find a second GP-9. Made all the difference in the world.
I was on the very last run of one of their F-M H24-66's, #3031. It made it from San Jose to Santa Clara, coasting in the last half mile. Crew got on the radio, and was told by the dispatcher to grab the SW1500 sitting at the end of the yard. We left about 5-6 minutes late, but the SW-1500 got us back on time before we got to Bayshore (just outside San Francisco).
The SW-1500 has the low-end acceleration, and if the stations are close enough, can do it (without head-end power sucking the orsepower away). If a run requires high-speed operation, I don't think it could handle that.
For those interested in the economic side of transit, you may note that the MTA's website now publishes both operational and budgetary data under "performance." The budgetary data isn't anything that couldn't be had from the FTA, albeit with a time lag, or from other reports, with a little work. But some may find the summary useful.
More significant is an article in today's Daily News, in which the MTA identified the bus lines which cover the smallest share of their costs. If the TA can do it for those lines, it can do it for other lines.
Several years ago, President Reuter spoke at NYC Planning where I worked at the time. He brought John Tucker, newly installed at OP, with him. During question time I asked if the TA compiled cost data on both the marginal and average cost per ride, by line, and by time of day. My question was intended to be a lead to a question about peak hour pricing -- peak hour service would be identified as expensive if properly costed because a significant share of the TA's trackage, cars, employees, etc. are only used at peak hour.
After fumbling for exactly how to put it, Tucker indicated that the data wasn't compiled because "it depends on whose ox is getting gored." In other words, rather than being a management tool to decide where and when to alter service, such data would likely be politicized, especially since it would probably be revealed that lines in better off, low density areas are more heavily subsidized.
Nonetheless, I think it's important that this information be compiled, made available, and used in decisionmaking. Cost per ride isn't the only factor -- you need to provide lifeline service in some places and at some times -- but it is a factor that shouldn't be ignored. Perhaps, with ridership data available in more detail thanks to Metrocard, the TA will begin to cost things out in more detail. I'm all for it.
He's right -- it's so much easier to justify road budgets, since each mile is cheap, and you need a mile of it everywhere in front of everyone's houses. Even then, think of the brouhaha when certain potholes get fixed.
Lots of subway riders gets subsidized -- nighttime workers, suburban commuters who could spend more and drive, downtown workers who could dig deep and spend two thousand a month to park, the working poor. And most of us give back a lot of it, but we shouldn't be expected to pay exactly for the miles of track that we use. We need, as a giant "board of directors", to keep it loose and not micromanage. I don't mind subsidizing others, if it makes the entire system more useful and efficient. But if you put it in front of the voters, every inch of track will come under scrutiny, and inch by inch, they'll take "everybody else's" subways away until we don't have any.
Just a theory. In practice, I agree with you, Larry.
[In other words, rather than being a management tool to decide where and when to alter service, such data would likely be politicized, especially since it would probably be revealed that lines in better off, low density areas are more heavily subsidized.]
In plain English, the debate shifts from city-versus-suburb to inner-city-versus-outer-city.
(In plain English, the debate shifts from city-versus-suburb to inner-city-versus-outer-city.)
It's nowhere near that simple. The G is neither inner-city nor outer-city, but gets a lot less usage per employee than the Lex (which in turn has a mix of inner city and outer city riders).
The Sea Beach and Rockaway Park lines also get low usage per employee and are very much outer city. But the Brighton gets much more usage per employee and is as much outer city as the Sea Beach.
Don't assume the results. There is marginal cost to consider. The Lex at rush hour may have the lowest average cost, but it has the highest marginal cost because accomodating a significant increase in ridership would require -- a $12 billion subway.
I'd like to see the results. Because in the political climate of the day, it is always assumed that those with darker skins are more foreign accents are draining everyone else. I'm not sure that assumption holds up; it certainly doesn't hold up all the time.
In any event, when you have the community protesting against a bus line that covers 15 percent of its operating costs (ie. the B71) CANCEL IT and make the pandering pols and pontificating activists beg to get it back. Could have used those buses elsewhere, for those who are appreciative.
Don't assume the results. There is marginal cost to consider. The Lex at rush hour may have the lowest average cost, but it has the highest marginal cost because accomodating a significant increase in ridership would require -- a $12 billion subway.
And of course the opposite can be true too. The G certainly must have high costs given its low ridership, but service could be doubled at reasonably low cost.
"The Sea Beach and Rockaway Park lines also get low usage per employee and are very much outer city. But the Brighton gets much more usage per employee and is as much outer city as the Sea Beach."
The problem with the sea beach is not frequent enough service. No express service. And the proximity to the F, B and brighton . The brighton drains off many passengers who want faster access into the city.
The TA needs to right size it's services. 15 min service on the weekend on the sea beach scares people off from taking it. Plus add in the station are dank and you got a service that is used less then it should. If there were more frequent service the sea each would be used to go shoping because the sea beach connect many major shopping districts in brooklyn.
Scheduled headways on the N train are 8 minutes most of the day on Saturdays and 10 minutes most of the day on Sundays. Where did that 15 minute headway figure come from?
David
I may have exagerated a bit with the N. I ment to talk about the N and R together. I often concider them complimentary services along the 4th Ave and on broadway.
Look at the schedule closely and there are a few 10, 12, 20 minute headways especially as you head into the evening hours.
The T on the other hand runs at 15 min intervals for large portions of sunday and equally terrible 10 and 12 minute intervals on saturday and some off peak times
My point nether the less is that it is in the riders best interest to run 4-car inteligent OPTO with much shorter wait times then the current schedulal. It has the potential to save money and resources that could be spent elsewhere and also reduce the wait service making both the N and R usefull to people other then to go too and from manhattan. Right now the schedule does not meet the needs of the people along the lines
(The TA needs to right size it's services.)
Why is it that when it comes to token booths you are all for NYCT doing what's economical and streamlined, yet with the Sea Beach you want them to spend money to attract customers who aren't there.
If you are a voice of reason you need to study some economics. If you make a service twice as good you rarely get twice the market (this is based on the phenomenon of elasticity of demand). NYCT ought to make the stations livable, because that is a basic part of the service everywhere. But adding trains when there aren't enough people to fill up the existing trains just spends money.
The problem with the Sea Beach is that there are other lines nearby, so the population for whom the Sea Beach is the most convenient train is fairly small. That doesn't give NYCT the right to physically neglect the stations, but it does give them the right to not over-provide trains service there.
"The problem with the Sea Beach is that there are other lines nearby, so the population for whom the Sea Beach is the most convenient train is fairly small. That doesn't give NYCT the right to physically neglect the stations, but it does give them the right to not over-provide trains service there."
Not trying to jump on your case, specifically. But one train of thought never seems to be talked about here. Should there not be planning done for future growth? Not that I'm inviting or even liking the possibility, but....houses do get knocked down, eventually. And usually higher density proceeds in kind. Check out the developments that went on up 20th Ave near McDonald. Also, I remember when Elmhurst, Queens wasn't as dense as it is now. But so many new triple family and "mini-apartment buildings" were shoved into former single family home plots that the neighborhood completely changed. More anonymous in texture....Grand Avenue is so damn busy.
So for that reason the Sea Beach line needs improvements. And yeah, that includes a higher TPH number. Plenty of people on that line own cars. That's a good subgroup to target. It'd be a good test of the efficiency of mass transit vs. private auto. Attract more of the, for Brooklyn, the Middle Class. Even get really interesting, squeeze in some commuter-type scheduling. Non stop from 59th Street, Brooklyn to Herald Square! (For that I'd easily pay four bucks. Am I crazy?)
Within a year or so you'd start to see more apartment buildings getting built. Decent ones. And so the ridership would increase. And so on. Haven't we seen this pattern elsewhere in Brooklyn? If it can happen in Park Slope, it can happen in Bensonhurst. The stuff I hear here, you'd think all these neighborhoods were frozen in time like some Outer Limits scenerio. Well, they're not. And like it or not, the future of cities, barring some fantastic new transport mechanism development, is dependant on their rail lines. Not that I'm saying YOU like it or not....just a point in general.
In fact in bensonhurst, there has been a steady transformation of large single family home's being converted into 3-4 family condo type buildings. There is definitly plenty of room for growth around the sea beach. If there were more frequent faster service, land around the sea beach would become more valuable to developers thus creating new housing and potentially more ridership.
The area around sheapshead bay station has seen two large apartment building developements go up in the last 3 years with a major drawing card being the fast express train service into manhattan.
The Oceana development near the Brighton Beach Sop on the Q uses the fast express train service to premote the property to people currently living in manhattan and park slope who would not ordinarily look in brihgton beach.
There is much improvement and pleny of devlopement opurtunity along both the sea beach and west end that goes untapped because the relative time it takes to get to manahattan. Many west end and Bay ridge commuters take fast ferries and express buses and shun the W, N and R because of the slow ride.
Along the N there is plenty of development opurtunity around Ft hamilton Parkway station as well as New Utrich station. On this stretch of the Sea Beach there are numerouse old warehouses and other low slung building that could be developed into housing. Some housing has already been built.
"The TA needs to right size it's services.)
Why is it that when it comes to token booths you are all for NYCT doing what's economical and streamlined, yet with the Sea Beach you want them to spend money to attract customers who aren't there."
Tooken booths are a dinasaur that provide little service to the riding public. They were rendered redundent with the introduction of metrocard and the myrid of ways to purchace metrocard(MVM, MEM, Local stores, subscription). If all tokken booths were eliminated tommorrow, the riding public would still have plenty of options to buy it's fare and would have no problem accessing stations. The sky is not falling in in chicargo, or dc and even at PATH. IF you read the MTA website fare policy presentation, the new pricing scheme is designed to further encourage riders to buy more per transaction further reducing the need for tooken booths. In essense they are passing the savings along to the rider. (in economic speak the more one buys at a time reducing the need for MVM maintance, need for station agents, etc reduces the cost of goods sold)
"If you are a voice of reason you need to study some economics. If you make a service twice as good you rarely get twice the market (this is based on the phenomenon of elasticity of demand). NYCT ought to make the stations livable, because that is a basic part of the service everywhere. But adding trains when there aren't enough people to fill up the existing trains just spends money.
I possess a BS in Accounting with a minor in finace, economics and marketing. The price elasticity of demand curve is shifted when a better product that people want is put forth into the marketplace.
If you read my post closely you will see that I am not preposing twice as many full length trains(at twice the cost)
I am preposing a shorter cheaper to operate inteligent OPTO tm based service. This scheme could be used on the r as well as the N.
In essence deploying current equiptment and staff in a more effecient manner. Instead of running all trains with 8 75ft cars with 2 crew members aboard at 8-10 min intervals during rush hour, run 4-8 car trains(depending on ridership needs, if more riders materialize add more cars) using inteligent OPTO tm with 6 minute intervals. One of the 4th AVE services(either the N or R) would need to operate express from 59th street to reduce the travel time with riders from one service having the opurtunity to transfer to the other
During OFF Peak Hours and on weakends headway could be reduced to 6-8 minuted from headways that aproach 12 min during the day on the R. The reduced headways once again won't increase costs because inteligent OPTO tm will be used. The use of OPTO will slightly reduce the total number of seats and staff. Some or all of the savings attributed to few wotkers will go towards paying the OPTO differntial to the remaing T/O's
The net result is fewer overall cars, employee's and seats but an improved frequency of service. The increased service will draw people away from competing services such as express buses during rush hour, cars and car service. It will encourage off peak ridership which is largely shunned due to the long headways. If people know that when they head to the station a train will come shortly, they will take the train more often. Over time people will start using the sea beach for leasure travel Even if ridership increases only 10% it is a huge increase in revenue without an increase in operating costs.
This is much the same way subway ridership in general increased during the 1990's as the MTA began to clean away the graphitti and reduce the number of train breakdowns and delays. The service became more reliable and people like myself began to use the subway more for leasure travel into the city where in the past I would have drove or just not gone into the city at all.
THE IMPROVED PRODUCT : More frequent service - Possible an express service. The feeling by customers that the train will come shortly
THE COST TO OPERATE : Less then or equal to the current cost
ADDITIONAL BENNIFITS: Excess 4 car sets could be transfered to the Q to run 4 car OPTO on the Q weeknights starting at 9pm(brighton terminal) and ending at 7 AM without increasing the cost due to breaking upand puting trains back together
"The problem with the Sea Beach is that there are other lines nearby, so the population for whom the Sea Beach is the most convenient train is fairly small. That doesn't give NYCT the right to physically neglect the stations, but it does give them the right to not over-provide trains service there."
The TA is not providing the right size service to sea beach and 95th street bound R riders. Spread a slightly smaller number of seats on shorter more frequent trains and the value proposition of taking a bus to the brighton, west end or culver line vs. taking the sea beach which may take a slightly longer time on train but, reduce the time to get to the train and wal la more riders.
There is a nice sized untapped market of rider's looking to travel from point to point along the 4th ave and sea beach line who now drive or take car service or just stay home that would take the train the same waypeople take the train to get around manhattan. Any additional rider is money in the bank.
Inteligent OPTO tm uses CCTV camera's mounted on the platform who's Images are wirelessly transmitted into the T/O operators cab and displayed either on flat pannel monitors or through a heads up projection. Using Inteligent OPTO tm reduces some of the negatives associated with traditial OPTO. For one dwell time is decreased because the T/O does not have to cross the cab to operate the doors. Safety is improved over traditional OPTO and current 2 man crew practices due to the fact that the T/O has full view of the Platform on his monitor to check for dragger then the current Conductors hanging his head out the window for three car lengths. The money spent on installing this system won't be wasted when CBTC is installed. The camera's could continue to be used by the train crew.
As for the tm after inteligent OPTO. I am thinking to trademark the term so if the MTA ever decides to impliment the system I can claim fee for all the work I have put into promoting the plan.
Thanks for the details.
I agree, more frequent OPTO trains could make the Sea Beach more attractive to customers without raising NYCT costs. There are also tricky issues related to the fact that the trains get a lot more crowded in Manhattan, but those can be addressed with proper care.
«but those can be addressed with proper care»
Just make it a shuttle.
Arti
The broadway local line is not used as much as other local services in manahattan such as the lex. The average Broadway local rider only takes the train for a few stops. This is partially due to the fact that the broadway local especially off peak times does not come as often.
If you take a look at the platforms while flying by on the broadway express they are sometimes crowdrd only due to the fact that the trains never seem to come. Reduce the wait time and one would assume that you would reduce the crowd on the platform.
Reduce the wait time and you may also draw more riders which would require more service. This would definitly need to be studied closely and adjusted if needed. Some of the riders especially those who will not be getting off at local stops will choose to take the express where now they take the first train to come in. In addtion riders who may need the N in brookly will take the Q/W express service and transfer in brookly where the trains will be less crowded. I already see this behavior by N riders who try to save time by taking the bridge service and transfer to the N at dekalb or pacific.
At night and on weekends the broadway local would draw many more leasure riders if the trains would come more often. Many people knowing that the train does not comes as often cabs rather then to wait for a train. Manhattanites are very fickle and with other option available they tend to take the option that is the easiest.
I take clases on sat and sunday at 34th street hearald sqaure. You would think it is the middle of rush hour to look how crowed the platform is. Then you look and people a yawning because of the long wait. How many people stay home or take other means of tranist because of the wait.
Pre manhattan bridge flip my girlfreind was working in Union Square and myself neat macy's. It was often just easier to walk down or not go rather then take the train. The train seemed to never come. Many people shyed away from using the service in manahatan because of the wait
4 car OPTO during rush hour on the broadway line is a tricky issue. Based on current ridership data and personal observation 4-car inteligent OPTO could work but there are some serious issue that need to be adressed
1) Cross platform transfers - Over time people will know which car they need to be in to complete a cross platform transfer. Take a look at people current habits, many people choose to ride in the car that leaves them closes to their exit. Conductors will need to announce a few to riders that inorder for a quick cross platform transfer the rider must be in X car.
2)Properly marking the platforms to notify people where the train will stop. Currently the MTA is doing a poor job of this on the F OPTO service. This is very important
The beuty of inteligent OPTO vs. Regualar OPTO is that you can run longer then 4 car trains if needed. Inteligent OPTO should be deployed. It will enhance what riders really want which is more frequent service.
How much will this "intelligent OPTO" really cost? So far you need new trainsets where you want to deploy this service (since the cost of retro-fitting current equipment to open both sides from one position, adding monitors for CCTV and the associated wireless receivers is probably cost as well as space prohibitive) and vandal-proof CCTV cameras (with some sort of wireless transmission system to the operating cab) at every station where this service might stop.
The system will not cost as much as you might think. It will pay for itself in a rather short period of time. There are defintly costs involved in deploying the service.
There are various transmission technologies that would be capable of cheaply transmitting the analog or digital video signal. As for the camera's themselves, there costs have come down dramatically over the past few years. There are numerous platforms on the brighton that already have CCTV systems covering parts of the platform. To the best of my knowledge, vandlaism has not been a major issue. The camera casings at Sheapshead bay and kings highway appear to be in rather prestine shape
The only car series that would make sense to rewire is the R-68/R68A. With the comming order of R-160 series cars there may be enough cars available to test such a service out.
Train lines that have full platform coverage could run 8 car trains with one crew memember safely. This is a tremdous cost savings.
To tell you the truth The sea beach/4th Ave/Broadway line could theoretically run Non Inteligent 4-car OPTO with realative ease due to the fact that the large majority of platforms are on T/O side of the Car
A detailed cost bennifit analysis would need to be done before widespread deployment of such a system. Concidering many platforms already have CCTV camera's to assist Train Operators. Further deployment should not be that difficult
Excellent points.
Link to Daily News Article.
--Mark
What are the signals for the Washington Metro?
I do know it is somewhat like this:
White-proceed
Red-stop
Blinking yellow or blinking "X"-caution
Flashing white is caution. The signals have three aspects. The top and bottom are red, the middle is white. There is no "X".
Signals are really not useful. Rumor has it they won't even trip a train because the trains all have cab signalling (and that will trip you).
The signal will most likley have 4 aspects: STOP, CLEAR, DIVERGING and ABSOLUTE BLOCK, probably shown by R, LW, *LW* and ?
Of course the "signals" will not trip a train. Intermittant ATS systems are not used on cab signaled lines that have an failsafe absolute stop code.
Red over Red means stop and stay, Lunar means clear with switch set to normal direction, flashing Lunar at some of the newer interlockings and upgraded installations means clear with switch set to reverse 'diverging route' direction. Flashing lunar, are currently installed at the following locations.
B09 Forest Glen
B10 Wheaton
B11 Glenmont
C07 Pentagon
C97 C&J Junction J Line turnout
D98 D&G Junction
E01 Mount Vernon Square
E03 U Street
E05 Georgia Avenue
E06 Fort Totten
E07 West Hyattsville
E08 Prince George's Plaza
E09 College Park
F03 L'Enfant Plaza
F05 Navy Yard
F06 Anacostia
F08 Southern Avenue
F09 Naylor Road
F11 Branch Avenue
J02 Van Dorn
J03 Franconia-Springfield
At the facing point of the switch that access pocket tracks running in the reverse direction of normal travel is a P signal. This signal is dark when there is no train occupying the track circuit adjacent to the P signal. The P signal indicates to atrain operator that has reversed normal direction of travel that he/she may manually set signal and switch to enter pocket track.
Somehow I am not able to catch on to your explanation of the P signals. I don't know if this one falls into that, but at Grosvenor, trains entering the pocket get a flashing lunar.
"Somehow I am not able to catch on to your explanation of the P signals. I don't know if this one falls into that, but at Grosvenor, trains entering the pocket get a flashing lunar."
Not all pocket track are equipped with "P" signals. "P" signals are only visible to trains approaching pocket track interlocking on tracks against the normal flow of traffic. see Farragut North interlocking.
Apparently the Grosvenor pocket track interlocking has been upgraded to display flashing lunar when switch is set reverse (diverging route). My list of interlocking that use flashing lunar is about 5 years old.
OK. Grosvenor is most definately able to display flashing lunar, I see it many mornings.
From what I undersand, the LIRR used to run power packs on pax trains considering of a Gp38 supporting HEP and a MP15. The MP15 pushed the train, not the GP38. Correct? How powerful was the MP15? I seen it push 10 car trains.
Also, how are the view in engine-foward locos?
I think it was 2 MP-15's coupled together, one for traction, one for HEP.
No many trains had just one MP15 with a GP38-2 on the other end. What you are thinking of are some trains (mostly oyster Bay) which just had two MP15's coupled together, then yes then one was used for traction and the other for HEP.
I believe however that when a GP38 was on the train, it did both push or pull, with the MP15 (or F unit) for controlling if the GP38 was on the back. The GP38's were usually on the east end of the train, except for some long train Montauk runs which would have two GP38's coupled together on the front of whichever way the train was going. The MP15's, FA1's, FA2's, F7A's, or lone F9A were usually on the west end of the train (except some Oyster Bay trains or Greenport scoot trains which sometimes just MP15's)
No.
Two MP-15's couple back-to-back were both for power, none for HEP, becuase the 2900's had their own generators. Oyster Bay had no turning facilities and FRA prohibits cab-forward operation of them on the LIRR.
When the GP38 was at the opposite end, the MP15 was for HEP. The MP15 had a toggle switch for either HEP or traction. 169 was strictly for HEP.
169 was strictly for HEP.
Does this have anything to do with why some of the MP15's had "P" on their numbers. Like "P171", etc?
Yes, but all P units from 161 to 172 can convert to a standard locomotive with a flick of a switch. 172 blew its HEP back in 1993, so it became just a standard locomotive as it still is today being used as a work train locomotive. And yes, P stood for locomotive providing HEP.
Speaking of the "P" MP15's.....Anyone remember this?
Poor 171 hit a bit of a problem here. Luckily, 171 was cleaned up as good as new, and repainted into the yellow and blue paint scheme when it returned.
Doesn't ring a bell, where was this truck accident at?
This happened on a Monday morning in May 1992, I think a week before Memorial Day. It happened at the Orchard Road grade crossing in Bellport or East Patchogue. Apparently, a very heavy truck hauling new concrete cesspool parts got hung up at the Orchard Road grade crossing. Of course, right after he got stuck, 171 pulling the (what is currently the 7:28AM train from Speonk) was coming down the track after it's station stop at Bellport and hit the truck at Orchard Road. I don't think anyone was killed. I think the truck driver escaped when the gates were coming down, and I don't believe the engineer was severely hurt (but not sure).
Luckily the train did stop at Bellport, otherwise it would have been going much faster. MP15 #171 was pretty badly damaged, and did derail. After a few hours, the GP38-2 on the other end, #254, pulled the train (minus 171) back to Bellport and left it on the siding there. It took a while longer to rerail 171. Luckily, new locomotives were still years away, and thankfully 171 was brough back to life, repainted, and served passenger trains for a few more years in yellow and blue (I think it's still on the property, but I don't know if it's NYA's or the LIRR's.
Actually, it could have been the Tuesday after Memorial Day. I don't remember. ALl I know is that it was near Memorial Day, and it was the first day of the workweek.
Chris, 171 is still on LIRR property in hands of LIRR being used for work trains. At least it won't see that type of paint job that 167 got. Although, most MP15AC's still on LIRR hands will get it except engines such as 161, 166 and 171 which got repainted in 1992.
The MP15, aka SW1500, produces 1,500 hp. Indeed, on trains with the power pack and a GP38, the geep will do the pushing and pulling while the MP15 is along for the ride providing HEP.
The LIRR used converted Alco FAs as power packs also. The original prime mover and traction motors were removed and a Penske engine/generator set provided the HEP.
Can someone give me the best way to get to Parson Blvd and Jewel Ave in Queens. Would it be better that I drive there from Plainview or get on the train in Hicksville.
Drive.
I live in Nassau also, and I would drive as long parking were not a problem. If you take the LIRR, get off at Jamaica. Take the Q44 Bronx bound or Q20A/B College Point bound at the NE corner of Archer and Sutphin. Ask for a transfer or use a Metrocard. Get off at Jewel Ave. and Main St. Transfer to the Queens Surface Q65A eastward (towards 164th St.) to Parsons Blvd.
Depending on time schedules you could do the Q44/Q65A as previously suggested or :
1- LIRR to JAM---Take the E to Continental Ave and the get the 65A at its first stop.
2- LIRR to JAM---Q60 (Green Bus Lines) to Continental Ave. to Q65A
3- LIRR to Forest Hills. Walk one block north and cross over Queens Blvd to the Ridgewood Savings Bank and get the 65A as in #1 & #2
#3 BAD IDEA, Not worth crossing the "Blvd. Of Death" use #1 or #2 for your safety.
You've been offered several good answers.
One suggestion: try the Straphangers' site at www.straphangers.org - they have a pretty good interactive map. Put in the intersection and then zoom in and out of the map.
I thought there was a prohibition against asking for
directions on Subtalk? Oh well, since I live in the
neighborhood I'll make an exception.
Parsons & Jewel: home of the Joint Industries Council and
JIB Lanes bowling alley. Parking is OK, as NYC goes.
Reasonable amount of free on-street parking and a cheap
parking lot across the street. During the rush hours you'd be
better off taking the train, but otherwise it's a quick ride
on the Northern State/GCP or the LIE.
If you take the LIRR from Hicksville:
Take the train to Jamaica Station. Walk a few blocks from Sutphin/Archer to Parsons/Jamaica and take the Q35 or Q24 buses up Parsons Blvd.
Article is at:
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/transportation/ny-lirr0301,0,1299507.story?coll=nyc-manheadlines-trans
Sounds like a good idea.
In the Chicago area, Metra monthly rail fares are quite competetive with the CTA.
CTA fares: $1.50 base, $.30 extra for transfer, $75.00 monthly pass.
Metra zone B (Oak Park): $2.05 single ride, $17.45 10 ride, $55.35 monthly pass.
Metra zone C (Evanston): $2.90 single ride, $24.65 10 ride, $78.30 monthly pass.
-- Ed Sachs
Why do commuter rail systems give such obscenely large monthly discounts compared to subway systems?
(Why do commuter rail systems give such obscenely large monthly discounts compared to subway systems?)
Interesting question. And it wasn't always this way.
For some reason I remember circa 1966 fares from New Rochelle:
1-way $1.01 (but almost no one used it)
10-trip, good peak and off peak, no real time limit (like today's $15 metrocard): $8.50.
Monthly: $33 (approx)
The 10-trip fare of $.85 was in essence the basic fare for all but the most casual customers. So the break-even point for monthly was that you had to use the railroad 20 round trips a month, which is a lot.
Much closer to today's metrocard fares than today' railroad fares.
Then about 1967, the Penn Central (or was it already the MTA?) slightly lowered the monthlies and massively increased the 1-ways, and made the 10-trips almost useless by putting a 1-week time limit on them.
The discounts are an old custom, dating back to the 19th century. Discounted tickets, such as 10-rides, weeklys, and monthlys, were called "commuted" fares (from the meaning of "commute" to exchange or discount, as in a "commuted prison sentence"). People who used these "commuted" fares came to be known as "commuters", hence the derivation of the word "commute" to mean to travel to and from work.
-- Ed Sachs
But that doesn't answer the puzzle of why suddenly in roughly 1967 Penn Central or the MTA suddenly decided to dramatically increase the level of discount for a monthly.
I think it's a real cool idea, as I travel off peak and could be home in 23 minutes as opposed to 45 minutes. MNRR vs D train. It would involve a little extra walking on each end, however.
If this happens remains to be seen, however.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sounds Good. Travel On Bart at all times Bewtween Embarcadaro and Daily City is the same fare as MUNI. and MUNI tickets/passes are excepted for travel at the same stations.
"I think it's a real cool idea, as I travel off peak and could be home in 23 minutes as opposed to 45 minutes. MNRR vs D train. It would involve a little extra walking on each end, however."
Except for New Year's eve, there is no MNRR service between 1:30 AM to 5:30 AM. Doesn't work if you want to get home at 3 AM.
Being on Jury Duty got me thinking... anyone ever see the new version of "Twelve Angry Men" with Tony Danza, James Gandolfini and Jack Lemmon? Danza's character had tickets to a Yankees game, which leads me to believe this version was set in NY. So, where in NY do you have the following: an el at such a height where if you looked out of your apartment window, you can see through the windows of a subway car and into an apartment where a sun supposedly killed his son? The only place I can think of is the Jamaica Ave. el, but even that's a bit high, I think.
Anyone ever see the original with Henry Fonda? Which city was that one set it (I thought it was Chicago, but maybe NY as well)? The original had the same situation.
I think it's a bit of artistic license on the part of the film maker. Then again when the original was made it probably was the 2nd or 3rd Ave El around the Criminal Courts building in Lower Manhattan.
I believe it is Manhattan, with the Els.
I think so also. But considering Hollywood the El in the background is probably just a prop.
It could been the Jerome Avenue Line (#4), Flushing El (7), West End (W), or 2-5 in the Bronx. Was it a Redbird? Then it was the 7. Growing up in Queens, I always knew that the second-floor windows of apartments along Roosevelt Avenue directly were facing the tracks at the same level.
Don't forget Chicago.
I think they would be closer to the 3rd floor, think of the #7 pulling out of Junction Blvd heading towards 90th st. You could see inside the buildings and see nothing but mattress's all over the floors!
I saw the original not too long ago on AMC. Most of it, anyway. Did you know it featured Mr. Green, Martin Balsam? Not to mention a young Jack Klugman.
I have not seen the remake - didn't even know they made one. The original was clearly meant to portray NY City. as for the el?? In the time that film was made - pick it. Myrtle, Jamaica, #7, RR, West End, and many more. All ran close to apartments - as suggested in the testimony. Bit of trivia:
Originally, Henry Fonda stood alone against the other 11 jurors. Ed Begley, E.G. Marshall and Lee J. Cobb were the last 3 hold-outs on the jury. What was the name of the actor who was the first to side with Henry Fonda?
Was it Sweeny? IIRC, The next juror (#9) was the first to agree, right? Damn I haven't seen the original since senior year H.S. (97).
Damn I haven't seen the original since senior year H.S. (97).
I can beat that, I haven't seen it since the late 80's in high school!
Absolutely - Joseph Sweeny...
I'm just guessing because I haven't seen it in a while but could it be Oscar Madi Jack Klugman? I know he eventually switched sides but not positive if he was the first.
Jack Klugman was the 2nd to change his vote after Sweeny. Jack Warden gave in because he had tickets to a Yankee game.
Question 1) Who were the Yankees to play against?
Question 2) Who was the actor that first voted guilty, then not guilty, then changed his vote twice more?
Question 3) What did the characters portrayed by Henry Fonda, Jack Warden, Ed Begley, E.G. Marshall and Lee J. Cobb all do for a living?
The Yankees were to play Cleveland as revealed by Sea Beach Fred in another part of this thread.
As far as the other 2 questions, I have not a clue.
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually, in the original, the Yankees were going to play Baltimore!
Sooo...I gather Sea Beach Fred was wrong.
Peace,
ABDEE
Actually, it was I who was in error. I should know better than to doubt Fred....
I was about to say. I would have remembered if it was Baltimore since I am an Orioles fan, but I know it was Cleveland.
You guys have given me an inspiration. This afternoon I will put in my tape of the "Twelve Angry Men" and enjoy a liesurely early evening treat. Thanks for the idea guys.
Cool, Fred, enjoy...I just watched it myself about 2 weeks ago.
Peace,
ANDEE
ESPECIALLY when it comes to baseball 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Since when is your name ABDEE! Like Abdee Salami? :)
That's just about enough out of you. 8-)
Peace,
ABDEE
Actually, the Yankees were playing Cleveland. Baltimore was the favorite team of Jack Klugman's character. Before Klugman was about to give his reasons for changing his vote, Jack Warden said "and now we hear from the Baltimore rooter".
Sorry to disagree with you my friend Dude, but in the 1957 movie it was Cleveland. I know because I used to be an Indians fan in the American League for over 40 years. CLEVELAND.
My condolences.
Q2...The advertising exec (can't remember his name) was the one who flip-flopped his vote.
Q3...Fonda was an architect. Warden played a salesman. Marshall was a stock broker. Cobb owned a messenger service. I'll pass on Ed Begley.
Great tangent Train Dude!!! This movie is one of my all-time favorites.
Q2...The advertising exec (can't remember his name) was the one who flip-flopped his vote.
The actor was Robert Webber (more well known for his role in "The Dirty Dozen".)
Q3...Fonda was an architect. Warden played a salesman. Marshall was a stock broker. Cobb owned a messenger service. I'll pass on Ed Begley.
Begly owned a string of Taxi Garages. Lee J. Cobb's messenger service was called "Beck & Call".
You're right about the Yankee game. Warden says rooting for Baltimore is like getting hit in the head once a day. My mistake.
1. Indians were the team being played against.
2. I am going to guess #6
3. Don't know
When I read the play in school, I was juror #4.
1. Yankees vs Cleveland
2. Robert Webber
3. Cobb was a businessman, Marshall was an accountant, I believe. I forgot about Fonda and I should know it. Warden was a salesman. Well, I get at least a B for this.
The original movie dates from about 1955 which is when the 3rd Ave. el stopped running. My guess is that the locale of the fictional murder would be on 3rd Ave. above 59th St. where the avenue was lined with five and six story commercial buildings.
BTW, the story locale of the jury room where the entire film was shot was no doubt supposed to be Lower Manhattan where the 2nd and 3rd Ave. els ran on the City Hall Branch.
If the movie was from 1955 then likely the timing in the movie would be a year or two before then. The scene of the murder probably would be alongside the 3rd (or maybe the 2nd) Ave El. The jury room doesn't have to be in the courthouse building. It could be a nearby building.
I'll have to see it the next time it pops up on AMC or TCM.
The film was originally released in 1957 (and was nominated for three or four Acadamy Awards (Oscars) in 1958). I think in those days, post-production didn't take nearly as long, so if it was released in 1957, it was probably filmed no earlier than 1956. Filming took only 19 days!! and it was Sidney Lumet's first directing job and Henry Fonda's first producer job. Not bad getting Best Director and Best Picture nominations for your first effort in a category ...
Late July or early August, 1956.
I heard that the original movie was shot in Ridgewood, Queens on Catalpa Ave.
Alright Bob, now you got my interest. Where on Catalpa?
Maybe the jury room was along the Myrtle Ave El. Interesting!
My favorite part is mundane and meteorological. The afternoon thunderstorm and the high humidity of summer in Manhattan.
Here are your characters, along with the order of acquittal:
Juror #1 (The Foreman): (Martin Balsam) A high-school assistant head coach, doggedly concerned to keep the proceedings formal and maintain authority; easily frustrated and sensitive when someone objects to his control; inadequate for the job as foreman, not a natural leader and over-shadowed by Juror # 8's natural leadership [9]
Juror #2: (John Fiedler) A wimpy, balding bank clerk/teller, easily persuaded, meek, hesitant, goes along with the majority, eagerly offers cough drops to other men during tense times of argument; better memory than # 4 about film title [5]
Juror #3: (Lee J. Cobb) Runs a messenger service (the "Beck and Call" Company), a bullying, rude and husky man, extremely opinionated and biased, completely intolerant, forceful and loud-mouthed, temperamental and vengeful; estrangement from his own teenaged son causes him to be hateful and hostile toward all young people (and the defendant); arrogant, quick-angered, quick-to-convict, and defiant until the very end [12]
Juror #4: (E. G. Marshall) Well-educated, smug and conceited, well-dressed stockbroker, presumably wealthy; studious, methodical, possesses an incredible recall and grasp of the facts of the case; common-sensical, dispassionate, cool-headed and rational, yet stuffy and prim; often displays a stern glare; treats the case like a puzzle to be deductively solved rather than as a case that may send the defendant to death; claims that he never sweats [10 - tie]
Juror #5: (Jack Klugman) Naive, insecure, frightened, reserved; has a slum-dwelling upbringing that the case resurrects in his mind; a guilty vote would distance him from his past; nicknamed "Baltimore" by Juror # 7 because of his support of the Orioles; he may be Hispanic but this is only speculation [3]
Juror #6: (Edward Binns) A typical "working man," dull-witted, experiences difficulty in making up his own mind, a follower; probably a manual laborer or painter; respectful of older juror and willing to back up his words with fists [6]
Juror #7: (Jack Warden) Clownish, impatient salesman (of marmalade the previous year), a flashy dresser, gum-chewing, obsessed baseball fan who wants to leave as soon as possible to attend evening game; throws wadded up paper balls at the fan; uses baseball metaphors and references throughout all his statements (he tells the foreman to "stay in there and pitch"); lacks complete human concern for the defendant and for the immigrant juror; extroverted; keeps up amusing banter and even impersonates James Cagney at one point; votes with the majority [7]
Juror #8: (Henry Fonda) An architect, instigates a thoughtful reconsideration of the case against the accused; symbolically clad in white; a liberal-minded, patient truth-and-justice seeker who uses soft-spoken, calm logical reasoning; balanced, decent, courageous, well-spoken and concerned; considered a do-gooder (who is just wasting others' time) by some of the prejudiced jurors; named Davis [1]
Juror #9: (Joseph Sweeney) Eldest man in group, white-haired, thin, retiring and resigned to death but has a resurgence of life during deliberations; soft-spoken but perceptive, fair-minded; named McCardle [2]
Juror #10: (Ed Begley) A garage owner, who simmers with anger, bitterness, racist bigotry; nasty, repellent, intolerant, reactionary and accusative; segregates the world into 'us' and 'them'; needs the support of others to reinforce his manic rants [10 - tie]
Juror #11: (George Voskovec) A watchmaker, speaks with a heavy accent, of German-European descent, a recent refugee and immigrant; expresses reverence and respect for American democracy, its system of justice, and the infallibility of the Law [4]
Juror #12: (Robert Webber) Well-dressed, smooth-talking business ad man with thick black glasses; doodles cereal box slogan and packaging ideas for "Rice Pops"; superficial, easily-swayed, and easy-going; vacillating, lacks deep convictions or belief system; uses advertising talk at one point: "run this idea up the flagpole and see if anybody salutes it" [8]
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I remember I was selected to a jury duty when I was only (19) which is five years ago. I was expected to joined the group of six women and six men included me to served the rape case. Eventually, I was the youngest of all 12 jurors, and oldest are 59. And one of the member was the guy (24) with numbers of tatoos all over are and nose ring.
The original "Twelve Angry Men" was made in 1957 and was supposed to be taking place in late summer 1956. It was set in New York, and Robert Warden, a wise cracking character, who, by the way, was my favorite in that movie, had tickets to the Yankee-Cleveland game that evening. He made fun of Jack Klugman who was an Orioles fan--at a time when Baltimore was a crappy team. I have it on tape and I watch it every so often. It was a good movie.
He made fun of Jack Klugman who was an Orioles fan--at a time when Baltimore was a crappy team.
Not much has changed since '56 eh? ;-)
Hey Piasan, you've hit that one out of the park. What goes around comes around. The situation is what it was back in 1956, but there was an era when Balltimore was a damn good team and the Yankees were in the pits. From 1966 until 1997 the Orioles were in the thick of most pennant races in the American League and won World Titles in 1966, 1970, and 1983, plus numerous league titles. The Yanks were in the hole from 1965-1975, and from 1982-1995. They had reversed places. Now it is back like the 50's. I suspect the Yankees will not have another downturn like before and the Orioles have one of the biggest assholes around as their owner. It might stay the way it is for a long time.
Eh, I know. Just your typical pro-Yankees anti-anyteam-playing-in-a-B-town comment that I had to make. Then again how can I hate Baltimore when Babe was born there. Boston, however, can go to hell :) What ever comes around bypasses Boston. Nineteen-eighteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen!
Maybe they need a downturn, straighten Jeter out. The Boss is paying him, and he should just calm down a little on the partyin'. Not completely, but just enough to make the Boss happy. Wells should hsut his mouth.
Subway related: The 4 train still runs to Y.S. Ok, cheap attempt, but its related. :-P
The Red Sox are my favorite American League team and I am trying to get NE Sports Channel on my cable program. We will eventually come back and win the big one---when I don't know? I wasn't a Sox fan when they played my Mets in the '86 World Series and I wonder how I would react if they met in the next couple of years? It would really make me twist and turn. If the Red Sox get another pitcher we could go all the way this year.
Get the pizza pan - even Steingrabber's channel is available on it coast to coast ... only thing they've gotta black out is your local team(s) if you're in the wrong zip code.
Those of us who remember 1969 know what happened that year. First the Jets beat the Colts in Super Bowl III, then the Miracle Mets did in the mighty Orioles in the World Series.
the Orioles have one of the biggest assholes around as their owner.
Very true, Fred. Here is a list of players and personell who have left as a result of not wanting to be around Angelos:
Pat Gillick (GM)
Davey Johnson (manager)
Roberto Alomar
Rafael Palmerio
Jon Miller (play by play radio announcer, considered to be the best in baseball)
And that is just the beginning. I can't wait until he is gone. If you were wondering where Ripken is on that list, he did not retire because of Angelos, but the two had their disagreements.
Getting ready for another long, losing season for the Orioles. This after we lost all but 4 of our last 32 games.
Is Angelos worse than Steinbrenner?
I'd say Steinbrenner's worse. How many times has Angelos threatened to move the Orioles out of Baltimore?
At least your stars stay. Ours leave (and in Mike Mussina's case, go TO New York).
>>> The original "Twelve Angry Men" was made in 1957 <<<
Close, but no cigar. The original was a Studio One live television play in 1954 with Robert Cummings playing the juror who would not convict. It, like "Marty" (1953) and "Requiem for a Heavyweight" (1957) were later remade for the big screen.
New Yorkers can see the original at the Museum of Television and Radio in Manhattan.
Tom
I meant the original movie, not the play. I missed it on Studio One, one of the few I missed. I really like Studio One and Playhouse 90 which followed a year or so later. If we take the TV version, then the scene was the summer of 1953, the last one when I was riding the old Sea Beach Triplex BMT#4. I never rode the subway much in '54 before I moved. I can't remember why.
>>>> I never rode the subway much in '54 before I moved. I can't remember why. <<<
Maybe your parents purchased an automobile??? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> If we take the TV version, then the scene was the summer of 1953 <<<
Which is appropriate for looking through the el train, since there were many places on the 3rd Avenue El in Manhattan where that would be possible.
Tom
*Which city was that one set it (I thought it was Chicago, but maybe NY as well)?*
Since the case took place in the "Manhattan Court of General Sessions" that pretty much rules out Chicago, dontcha think? *G*
Like I said, I hadn't seen the original in several years, so I'd forgotten, and was looking for the info.
So are the R110A (R130) and/or R110B (R131) being carried on the Revenue Active Roster or have they been retired?
I hear so many conflicting stories.
They have been reired.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling here!
They have been retired.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling here!
I highly doubt that we will ever is the 110 A/B in Revenue service again.The 110-B entered into service as an A-train.The 110-B was a odd car train. 3 sets of 3 cars. 1 set caught fire and the train was then used off peak hours on the C. After having problems with it they finally decided to pull the plug on it all together.
The 110-A was made up of 2 sets of 5 cars and was assigned to the 2-line. This train was the better of the two expect this one had brake problems which were fixed and continued to service.A year later rumor has it that a it caught fire and they pulled the plug on that on too
To answer your question -
The R-110A is now on the "Revenue Inactive" list.
The R-110B is still listed as "Revenue Active"
Thank you Steve.
Always like direct answers.
The R-110A is now on the "Revenue Inactive" list.
Wha dose that mean. Can they make it active again. Where is it being stored?
Historically, it's been done previously. R-9s were activated after being scrapped. R-10s and R-16s were also brought back to life. The R-110A, last I heard, was in storage at Pitkin Yard. It's not likely but entirely possible to revive them.
If it were my choice, I'd be using them on the Shuttle @ 42nd St.
True. i wouldny mind seeing them signed up for the #2 line again. Can anyone got to pitkin and take pictures? I only rode them 4 times.
AMI
Man, did I love the R110A. Foward facing window seats on the IRT is a novel idea which I thoroughly enjoyed. I used to "chase" that train from Flatbush to Wakefield.
It's a pity they didn't think of putting the 110Bs into service on the Franklin Shuttle as it's pretty much an isolated line since the rebuild. I presume the platforms couldn't handle the 201' lengths.
"If it were my choice, I'd be using them on the Shuttle @ 42nd St."
This would be outstanding! They already have automated anouncements, which is exactly what a shuttle train needs (just like airport trams). I don't know if they would keep the bucket seating though; you need more standing room. -Nick
To finally put this misconception to rest, I have dug up a New York Times article which clearly shows that the Queens streets were renumbered in the mid-1920s, not the mid-1910s as commonly believed here (this is another one of those wrong facts that I complained about recently).
According to an article on August 21, 1927, the numbering system had been put in "recently." 1916 may seem recent to 1927 compared to 2003, but a contemporary newspaper in 1927 would not consider 1916 recent.
So it stands at 1925. I was unable to find an article that pins down the date more precisely. That is for a later time.
Also, here's a rhyme by a man named E.P. Butler that was published in the Times on December 3, 1926:
In Queens to find locations best-
Avenues, roads and drives run west;
But ways to north or south 'tis plain
Are street or place or even lane;
While even numbers you will meet
Upon the west and south of street.
This would be a really cool thing if they still taught this to Queens schoolchildren.
The numbers weren't all changed overnight. From what I understand, the numbering system was BEGUN in 1915, but it wasn't completed for over a decade. By 1927, most of Queens would have been renumbered, but most likely not all. So, the whole renumbering process would indeed have been a "recent" phenomenon in 1927.
By the way, the renumbering is still not done. And I am not referring to Jamaica Estates, Forest Hills Gardens, or any other upscale area where whole neighborhoods are outside the grid; nor am I referring to Rockaway, where the addresses have dashes only on the E-W streets, but not on the N-S streets.
There is one very odd street, Walnut St, that runs E-W, and whose eastern end hits 71st Ave. at a right angle (while 71st Ave. is running N-S., at a point just north of where 71st Ave. hits Union Tpke.).
Addresses on either side of the street show a weird mix of old and new. I believe the houses on the south side of the street begin at 71st Ave. with house no. 98, 100, 102, etc. However, the houses on the north side are normal Queens addresses, with dashes. (I don't remember the actual numbers.) Then, halfway down the block going west, the pattern reverses! The old-style addresses are on the north side, and the reguar Queens addresses are on the south side! I find this street bizarre.
Ferdinand Cesarano
A visit to the NY Public Library, and a look at the 1922 Queens Hagstrom, will show you a Queens about midway through the change. Astoria hung tough for awhile, while Flushing STILL doggedly clings to its names, for which I'm grateful.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Interesting. Instead of Brooklyn, NY, we could have had:
Bay Ridge, NY
Borough Park, NY
Blythebourne, NY
Gravesend, NY
and a myriad of others. Any reason why Brooklyn didn't follow Queens in the towns standing independent rather than adhering to the Borough name? Also worthy of mention: It's KINGS County.
Staten Island is RICHMOND, but QUEENS is still QUEENS County.
Oy.
Because Brooklyn was the name of a city in KINGS county. It grew and absorved the other communities in KINGS county. City of Williamsburg(h). Towns of Bushwick, New Lotts, Gravesend and a few other locations I can't think of at this time of morning.
Queens County had Long Island City, Towns of Flushing, Jamaica, Rockaways and 3 other towns that became NASSAU County when western QUEENS County decided to join NYC.
That is a nifty rhyme:
In Queens to find locations best-
Avenues, roads and drives run west;
But ways to north or south 'tis plain
Are street or place or even lane;
While even numbers you will meet
Upon the west and south of street.
The only problem in it is that the word "street" is used twice close together, but in two different senses: first as the specific label; second as a general word which would encompass all of the labels.
I can't come up with a perfect rhyme that's better, but I think you need something along the lines of:
While even numbers shall be spied
On the west and southern sides
Then, we need a few more lines:
A boulevard is wide and grand
It carries two-way traffic and
Direction we can't take for granted
North or west; or even slanted
Ferdinand Cesarano
I must say that I am disappointed that no one has critiqued my attempt to add on to that Queens address rhyme by E. P. Butler, or has tried his/her own hand at it.
In hopes that the reason for this is that other SubTalkers overlooked my earlier post completely, thinking it to be a duplicate a post I had made a few hours earlier, I will re-submit, with a few modifications.
The original rhyme:
In Queens to find locations best-
Avenues, roads and drives run west;
But ways to north or south 'tis plain
Are street or place or even lane;
While even numbers you will meet
Upon the west and south of street.
I really like this rhyme, despite the minor flaw that the word "street" is used twice close together, but in two different senses: first as the specific label; second as a general word which would encompass all of the labels.
I think you ideally need an ending that doesn't re-introduce the word "street" as a general word, since we need that word as one particular label. Maybe something along the lines of:
While even numbers shall be spied
On the west or southern side
Then, we need a few more lines to account for that other major type of thoroughfare:
A boulevard is wide and grand;
It carries two-way traffic and
Direction we can't take for granted;
North or west or even slanted
Ferdinand Cesarano
>>> I must say that I am disappointed that no one has critiqued my attempt to add on to that Queens address rhyme by E. P. Butler <<<
It could be that others, like I saw the poem, appreciated the change you provided, and had nothing further to add to it. Look at it as "No news is good news." However, if your ego requires it:
BRAVO!!! An inspired change. It should be included in any new anthology of Queens poetry!
Tom
...if your ego requires it: BRAVO!!! An inspired change. It should be included in any new anthology of Queens poetry!
Thanks, Tom! (You know that we sensitive, creative types need our recognition.)
Actually, I was really hoping to generate a round of verse-writing on the topic of Queens streets. I have this sonnet about Junction Blvd. that will knock your socks off...
Ferdinand Cesarano
["This would be a really cool thing if they still taught this to Queens schoolchildren"]
Or cabbies!!!
ROTFLMAO,
Peace,
ANDEE
Cute rhyme, but it doesn't address the myriad miscellaneous street titles, such as Crescent (there are many of them in Forest Hills/Rego Park), Circle and Parkway (like Marathon or Little Neck Parkways, neither of which are "parkways" but regular roadways).
Maybe at the time the "parkways" were that considering there weren'y too many roads in that section of Queens.
Than why does this 1924 map contain only numbers for the Jamaica Ave BMT? The Liberty Ave BMT also appears to have numbers alongside names. No Jamaica Ave. station ever sported their numbered street's name (121 St. was never called Spruce St). The same map does show only names for the now numbered stations on the Astoria and Flushing lines, though. Perhaps certain sections of Queens were numbered at different times.
There is a plaque on a pole in front of a house on Park Lane South in Woodhaven (I just saw it this past weekend) which clearly states that the house was the first to be renumbered according to the new scheme in 1917. I could find the exact address, if you're interested. The irony of this is that Park Lane South should really be Park Avenue (or Road or Drive) since it runs east and west at that point.
There is a plaque on a pole in front of a house on Park Lane South in Woodhaven (I just saw it this past weekend) which clearly states that the house was the first to be renumbered according to the new scheme in 1917. I could find the exact address, if you're interested.
I forgot about that, even though it's only 2 blocks from where I live. The year is 1913, not 1917 IIRC. It's obvious street numbers in Woodhaven were instituted in the 1910's, not 1920's.
The irony of this is that Park Lane South should really be Park Avenue (or Road or Drive) since it runs east and west at that point
It does run the length of the park along it's southern edge. The street turns into Park Lane when it turns and runs along it's eastern edge.
I'm old enough to remember when the street signs in Queens had BOTH the new numbers AND the old names on them. My street (114 St) was previously named "Stoothoff Avenue".
>>>I'm old enough to remember when the street signs in Queens had BOTH the new numbers AND the old names on them.<<<
Green and whites installed in Sunnyside Gardens do have both names. I guess the community board asked for it....to be chronicled in...
www.forgotten-ny.com
...where you will find the Street Necrology of Astoria
In going through the microfilm of the Brooklyn Eagle from 1916, I found a series of maps showing how Queens and Brooklyn would be zoned. This is not New York City zoning as we now know it (building height, etc.), but rather streets where commercial, residential, or business development would be allowed. It showed the streets with both numbered and (for want of a better term) nouned names. In many cases, there were things included that never came to be (a wider Baisley Pond Park for one) or streets that no longer exist (some oddly-angled roads in the Queens Village/Cambria Heights street grid), but they had at least begun to deal with the numbered street concept.
This actually restarted the process. At one point, some streets in Western Queens had different numbers that they now have (31st Street was 2nd Street, as an example).
I was just wondering, how would the BSS and the Locust St subway interchange?
I know the Locust St subway was originally an extention of the Broad St Subway running along Locust St and built to serve the communities down Locust St west of Rittenhouse Sq, as well as west of the Schuykill river, an area currently only served by rather heavy bus service, as well as the Subway Surface 11, 13 and 36 trolley lines. Budget problems lead to the subway only running between 8th and locust and 17th and locust, and being completely unconnected to any lines, left to site for some fourty years. Of course finally in 1969 PATCO finally joined the Bridge St line on 8th to the abandoned Locust st subway and built the stations at 9th, 12th, and 15th.
But I'm wondering, how the heck were the BSS and LSS supposed to interchange? The LSS drops WAY below the BSS, it would seem to make any connection between the two require a helix down from the BSS. Somehow would the tail tracks at Walnut Locust drop down to the LSS, creating a flying junction between the two?
Also, was it PATCO, or whatever group that built the LSS originally (PTC, SEPTA, City of Philadephia) that built the subway stations? Both 15th, 12th, and 9th seem to have something different in common compared to the other subway stations on PATCO, in fact they look like the south philly BSS stops. Could it be that the Bridge Line Stations and Locust St Stations were quite different, and that PATCO, back in 1969 modified them mostly to their liking? Thus accounting for any differences between the two.
The interchange was via the Ridge Ave subway. Before PATCO Ridge and Brigde trains could either terminate at the upper level of 8th and Market or 15/16th and Locust.
(Of course Mike meant the lower level.)
When you ride PATCO eastbound out of 8th & Market, there used to be a switch where the line now curves to the right approaching the (closed) Franklin Square station. The tracks to Ridge Ave have been removed and a fence has been erected. This is easily seen through the railfan window from the first or second seat.
At various times bridge trains terminated (as Mike stated) at 8th & Market or 16th & Locust; sometimes the train continued (in the opposite direction) to Girard Ave on the Ridge Ave spur.
The bridge and Ridge lines were separated upon the advent of PATCO.
Wow, that seems a bit odd to me. Kinda counter-intuitive, if you want to ride whatever the LSS would become west of the schuykill, you have to first travel east on the Ridge Ave Spur (assuming that you start at say, Olney or Fern Rock and want a one-seat ride, if you start in center city, may as well just ride either the BSS or MFL to one of the interchanges, plus it wouldn't be the Ridge Ave Spur, would it?). I could see Walnut Locust being overwhelmed at times with people who work on the western half of Market St (between 20th and 16th) flooding off the LSS and onto the BSS cause they're in too much of a hurry to ride the LSS/Ridge Ave Subway all the way up to the MFL interchange at 8th and Market, and too lazy to walk from Locust up to Market, so three interchanges actually sound good to them (but it'd have to be Subway Surface, not MFL).
Was anything else planned for the Express tracks? Were they just to end at Walnut Locust, I suppose that South Philly Express service was planned, but canceled due to budgetary reasons. Would it have been a double decker subway, similar to the Lex between 59th and 125th(?)? Would they have completely redone the Subway, ripping out the island platforms in the name of 4 track express running, or would it have been a chicago-style express, with the expresses on the outside, locals on the island platforms in the middle?
Just south of the Walnut station the tracks jog to the east. The south Philly portion of the BSS was built to serve as one half of a 4 track express route if such a route was ever needed. The other two tracks would have been added to the west of the two existing tracks giving the option to re-do all the stations or run the other line as express only with no accross the platform transfering.
If you think about it, you wouldn't need to rip out the island platforms entirely, just at non-express stations cut back the portion of the island serving the now express track and build a wall. On the other side side wall platforms could be built as normal.
Even further back, LSS was to be part of center city distrubution system. Arch st. (two unfinnisher stations WW1 - Juniper st and tenth st) 8st and Locust st. Two tracks from North BSS turning each direction on Arch St. Plans latter changer to ridge ave spur, 8st and Locust Sts
I have responded to a few posts on strappies about the R110 fleet, some poeple disagreed with me, so i will ask it here
Does anybody know the fate of the cars??
When will it be decided?
What happened to the plans to rebuild them?
"There's no fate but what we make." -- Kyle Reese
I guess any plans to rebuild them were scrapped with the arrival of the 142/143. But I know of no other plans.
Why don't they rebuild them. The R-11 was delivered as a prototype for the Second Avenue Subway. They were used in service for a considerable amount of time. They were even rebuilt as contract R-34, and used for even longer. Why not do the same with the R110 A and B?
They were prototypes for The R142/143 fleet, but now the that fleet has arrived, I guess there is no need to rebuild them, although I did like the R110B very much so. Another reason they probably won't bring the R110 Fleet back is because the 110A has transverse seating and caused less standing space and during rush hour on the IRT is a no no, you need all the space that is a available, and the 110B was 67' long, and that's over the IND standards, on the A Line it was 603' when the Max. length of a trainset is supposed to be 600' and on the C Line it was shorter than the standard 480', it was a 402' trainset.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling here!
What? The R110B was built as three three-car sets. 9x67 is 603', no matter how you slice it. 8x75 is 600', as is 10x60. There is more than enough 'slop' in the platform and signaling to allow the additional 3' of train, all of it beyond the end doors and not a danger to passengers.
And people wonder why I rarely post...
-Hank
Hank.
Why are you wasting your time, you know he always speaks from his ass.
IMO.
After all he said both have been retired.
Peace,
ANDEE
(sigh)
The R32/38/40/42 are 60'6", so 10x60'6" is 605' which makes it shorter than the 9x67 110 anyway.
Last time I checked, every train can hold people. I saw a 4 car train on the Red Line heading towards Grosvenor or Shady Grove this evening on Metro's busiest line which is susposed to only have 6 car trains. I am sure all the people packed onto that 4 car train were grateful that it showed up, despite being crowded in. I couldn't see how crowded it was but I can assume that upon leaving DuPont Circle, it was probably at or near crush loading. I am sure that even if it ran on the IRT during rush hours, people wouldn't mind seeing it. It is a train after all.
The primary reason to keep the train out of service is training and maintenance. You have to train crews to operate on those trains and they don't use all the same parts other trains do. Those are the primary reasons, from what I understand, that the trains are not in service.
As of December 2002, the R-110A's were no longer on the roster of active cars. The 110B's were on the roster.
Does anybody know when the Subway Roadeo is and where? If I can, I'd like to see what it is all about.
#4489 N Sea Beach Local
The Rodeo if I remember correctly is usually held on the first Saturday of April every year and is always held at Coney Island Yard.
It could be the third Saturday of April,I forgot,it's either the first or third Saturday of that month.
If anybody knows a specific date, please post it here on the Upcoming Events Board so that we all know when it is and hopefully we can have a huge SubTalk gathering there. Thanks!
#2830 Q Brighton Beach Local
The only way I could there is if my older brother goes this year and invites me as well.
The subway RODEO is only open to employees of the the TA and their families.
Peace,
ANDEE
I know that,that's why I was at the last rodeo.I'm the younger brother of one of the TA worker's.
My Mom is a Bus Operator, What do they do at the Rodeo anyway?? I never been to a Subway Rodeo.
last one i was at, they had lots of food, train rides and lots of events for the kids. for the grownups, if they knew anyone from RTO, they get to watch the competition.
according to a motorman i know it went like this
FIRST THING
UNIFORM INSPECTION U HAVE TO PASS HAVE ALL TOOLS READY
2ND THING
WRITTEN EXAM
3RD THING
TRANSIT TRIVIA BASIC KNOWLEDGE OF SYSTEM
4TH THING
CONE EVENT. HOW CLOSE U CAN GET TO THE CONE WITHOUT HITTING IT AND I BELIEVE U CAN ONLY HIT THE BRAKES ONCE. NO FANNING! AKA THE SPEED DISTANCE EXAM ITS CALLED
5TH THING IS, U GO AROUND THE YARD WITH SUPERVISION AND U HAVE TO POINT OUT WHATS SAFE, WHATS WRONG, WHATS A DEFECT. ONE EXAMPLE IS, I SAW A RED SIGNAL WIT THE TRIP ARM DOWN
What employees (volanters)of the Transit Museum don't count?
WestFest was an employees only thing in 1998. I was able to get in because of my association with the Museum. Now I posess an EPIC pass, that makes me extra special....
-Stef
I suppose I could go but I'm not really interested.
Peace,
ANDEE
We went back in April '01 and got in without too much resistance. The guard just couldn't turn down a young child. Of course, that was in a much more innocent era. Now security would likely be much tighter. We were away for the '02 rodeo, so it's unknown as to whether we would've been able to get in.
Wonder if telling them I know Mark W would get me in the Roadeo? Or would it get me in jail instead?
While the Rodeo events are in CIY this year, everyone is to show up elsewhere first, so don't go to the Yard.
Probably jail...8-)
JUST A JOKE, MARK. So don't get all bent out of shape.
Peace,
ANDEE
ROTFLMFAO
8-) Sparky
Thank you for not telling him he will be taken to the roadeo by three men in white suits strapped to an orange vest.
With or without patented antireflector shields? :)
Howard, maybe you should tell them you know Dennis Riga...that should get SOME kind of result...LOL!
NOT TRUE, I WENT 2 YEARS AGO said i was invited by my uncle and he wasnt there to accompany me. i bet this year i will get in on my MTA metro North ID. u would be suprised how much u can get away with when u have a MTA badge
Enjoy!
02 R-32
02 R-38 (Page 2)
01 R-40 (Page 7)
07 R-44 (Page 2)
10 R-68 (Page 9+)
05 34 St/6 Av IND
01 34 St/6 Av BMT
02 59 St - Columbus Circle
01 96 St (B/C)
Total: 31 Photos
Take Pride,
Brian
Why do you have pics of R-44's and R-46's on Railfanwindow.com?
Because it beats taking photos of brick walls.
They have arrived at East 180th St.
-Stef
Goodie-more crap to deal with.
#8888 5 Lexington Ave Bronx Thru Express
>>>by Stef on Tue Mar 4 00:02:50 2003.
Goodie-more crap to deal with. <<<
Call it crap, if you wish, but the FACT is you are going to have to deal with it for the next 40 years.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah I guess I will have to like it or not-Yuck-time to get an interest in the B Division cars-especially the R32 R40 and R40M.
#3469 E Queens Blvd Express
#4489 N Sea Beach Local
#4398 Q Brighton Beach Express
>>>
Goodie-more crap to deal with. <<<
Call it crap, if you wish, but the FACT is you are going to have to deal with it for the next 40 years.
Peace,
ANDEE
what are the top 20 subtalk topics?
id say
1- The Manhattan Bridge Service patterns
2- The Second Avenue Subway
3- Why the CPW express is not an express, just a skip-stop saving you no time
4- The Airtrain
5- Bringing the lirr to JKF via the Rockaway Beach ROW
6- Bashing the "Rathole", brooklyn you know what I mean
7- Bashing Freds line
8- Proposing freds line be a total Local via tunnel to the bronx...lol
9- Saying the brighton is the best
10-Tell brookfield to use the 2 3 4 5 M N R from Atlanti-Pacific, its about 6 billion cheaper, it only costs $1.50
How about?:The Nimbys of Sea CliffKosher Hot Dogs at Newark Penn StationJoe BrunoRobert MosesDeep fried Hostess TwinkiesSkee Ball76th StreetSuit covered anusesThe gender of V Train B47 Bus
Darwin Awards
Looking at both of your lists, this thread might be a classic!
You both forgot the incessant threads about the Redbirds. When they all go? When will they go? When will they go?
And also 'fantasy lines', where we happily go off and spend $100 billion or more ripping apart and reconstructing the system into what it really should be.
And, I forgot to add, badmouthing Mayor Hylan. This is not so much an exclusive thread topic as it is a universal motif underlying just about every posting.
Or "WHEN IS THE TRANSIT MUSEUM GOING TO OPEN?"
SHHH....That's a secret. 8-)
peace,
ANDEE
I believe I was the one who started the 76th Street Station Post, the thread was long as hell!! So the 76th Street is definately a classic. Here's the my thread!, and here's another thread started by abother SubTalker.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling INc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling Here!
no !it was ...............
"" kosher dogs at penn station in newark ""
...........lol
How about the inevitable threads about a the exploits at Branford? I'm not complaining, I love to hear about that stuff, but between the planning, debates, announcements, general hype before the big day, and, of course, the follow up reports, that place must occupy a significant percentage of the messages on this boad.
I for one would enjoy hearing more from museums at:
- Kingston
- Coney Island (about both RPC & Museum fleet progress)
- Bob Diamond's PCC
- Seashore
- Baltimore
- IRM
(Branford just happens to be the place where many of us SubTalkers go to get dirty on the week-ends)
And I regularly read, rapid transit related, posts from:
- Washington D.C.
- Atlanta
- Boston
- Philly
- Chicago
- London
You're forgetting the infamous Train Dude/Heypaul feuds of nearly three years ago (those posts would be remembered by only true SubTalk 'veterans') :)
>>>...the infamous Train Dude/Heypaul feud...<<<
Who the hell are they...8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
How can you forget 76th Street????
Quite easily, seeing as there's nothing there to remember ;-)
Subway scenes in movies- especially PELHAM 123.
Slants are faster than hippos.
The dulcet tones of the R/1-9 motor and pinion gears.
How much faster express runs used to be till these darn timers.
Incorrect R142/A automated announcments.
"If I could build lines and had unlimited amounts of money-"
Remember Nedicks/automats/Robert Hall/any defunct NYC institution?
Manhattan Bridge after 2004.
Why can't they restore the F express in Brooklyn?
Chambers Street station is DISGUSTING!!
Fastest express run.
Fastest river tube.
Nicest/ugliest station rehab.
Can you take photographs in the subway or not?
Don't forget Food Talk.:)
Then there's the ever-popular Bob and Fred Show. Guaranteed to leave you in stitches when it's on the air.
And how about classic posts:
The slant Q train that got up to 54 mph on the Brighton express.
The two A train conductors going at it all the way down 8th Ave. with one train on the express track while the other was on the local track.
And my personal favorite - Wayne's Ride From Hell on that broiling, crush-loaded prewar F train on 9/11/73.
Most classic and outstanding post has to go to 76th Street. Bashing SeaBeachFred is another. I would say I myself was bashed once on SubTalk. I panicked over nothing if you recall that virus thing( still sorry about it). Any post on the 2 Ave subway goes for some distance. My Jamaica Q&A post lasted about a week or week and a half. And I started at least 1 or 2 Transit Trivia posts. I usually enjoy it when someone else hit's us with trivia. My questions are too easy. Manhattan Bridge is another hot subject. V and Dubya trains, our redbirds, and the bucket of bolts that we call R142 and R142A. But I have to give thanks to Selkirk and SeaBeachFred. I was born 1977 and was a BMT baby. Proud of the Brighton, Sea Beach, Culver, and West End lines. Hey, I was born in Coney Island and had access to all these lines. Now, I'm an IRT adult along the ranks of the Lexington Ave Lines.
I was on two 2 trains today, one with cars borrowed from the 5. Both had updated strip maps. They seem mostly correct, but Park Place still shows a connection to PATH and the M south of Chambers is in a diamond.
I thought I was imagining that. It looks like a stick on over the portion of the map that needed updating.
-Stef
It is a sticker. They could have actually replaced the maps but I guess pasting a sticker over much of it was a cheaper alternative. I've yet to see R142s with these updated maps.
Yeah I noticed that too on the 2 train I was on today.It had all the current connection's at each station.Finally!I thought they'd never update those strip maps.
Well, I don't see why leaving PATH off is strange. It will come back.
Is it omitted in the updated announcements? I figure it won't be.
Was this station rebuilt as new during the Archer Avenue subway construction? Or was it kept the way it was since 1918?
Give me some answers please.
I think the station was rebuilt when TA rebuilt stations arond the line from 121 back to Crypress Hills. I thinm that was the early to mid 1980's.
121st Street was never rebuilt. What you see was alwways there since the el was built. Originally, what is the J line ended at Cypress Hills (an old station before the curve on Jamaica. Cypress hills station was actuually over Crescent Street not Jamaica Avenue. About 1918 or so, the line was extended from Cypress Hills to 168th Street. On September 11th, 1977 the Jamaica El was cut back to Queens Blvd, and QB became the terminal. In I think 1985 or so, the Jamaica El was cut back further to begin connecting the Archer extension, so Queens Blvd and Metropolitan Ave were abandoned, and 121st street, which used to be just a stop in the middle of the line became the terminal, until late 1988 when it was extended to Jamaica Center. So our current 121st street is the original 1918 station.
Interestingly, 111th Street ided to be used as a terminal station also when the Lexington El use to be in service, they usewd to short turn Lexington El trains at 111th Street (of course there still was quite a ways to go on the el back then).
On the J line from Cypress Hills to 121 St the stations were rebuilt. Mezzazines were rebuilt in some places and others were totally removed. That was the early to mid 1980's. Before then Alabama thru Crescent stations were also rebuilt. The old wooden platforms were replaced with cement. There was also a GO that went on for months were trains didn't stop at the stations and shuttle buses went from B'way-Junction to Cresent St for bypassed stations.
Rebuilt is too strong a word for what happened to Jamaica Ave. el stations. I'd use the term "heavily rehabbed". 102nd, Forest Parkway and Elderts Lane each had entire mezzanines physically removed. Other than that, the repairs were cosmetic.
I'm afraid the stations look much like they always did, and were not really rebuilt. Yes, they got some windscreens, and new lighting and railings, but the basic structure is the stations that was always there. Even the concrete flooring is original in most of the stations. When I think of rebuilt, it means what they did on Broadway before the current 1918 stations were built. The original 1888 stations were removed, and replaced with the 19-teens stations (and structure) that are there now.
i realy dont like it when people say things in such a ''know it all,as a matter of fact'' type way...all the stations from Eny to 121 street have been reconditioned[rebuilt]from its former appearance,along with track,bents,signals,lighting and a few other things...and even stations between ENY to Marcy recently received the same treatment.The East NY station,at this moment,is being ''rebuilt''.come out a take a visit sometimes.....
i realy dont like it when people say things in such a ''know it all,as a matter of fact'' type way..
First of all, it was not meant in any way to be "know it all" as you seem to have taken offense to, because it surely wasn't meant to be. If anything, I should take offense to the way you replied to my post. The problem here is not an issue of if you think I came off arrogant, it is more an issue of what we each define as "rebuilt". The truth is the stations on the Jamaica line ARE the original structures, meaning they are not rebuilt, at least how I would define it. Your last statement (at this moment,isbeing ''rebuilt''.come out a take a visit sometimes..... ) couldn't be farther from the truth, as I do know exactly what those stations look like, and still say they are not rebuilt, heavily rehabbed maybe, but rebuilt no.
Actually, just to add, I find the stations above Fulton Street on the J to be more on the lines of what I would call "rebuilt". I guess it's how all of us define rebuilt, or define rehabbed. I don't know, but when I see old photos of any of the stations on Jamaica Avenue, they look basically just like they do now, they are the exact same structure, so that's why I said they were not rebuilt, even the concrete is 19teens on many of them. (you sure can't say the same about the Fulton street J line stations which are almost unrecognizable).
Look, it has been some 16 years since I rode the Jamaica El. and even with pictures those stations still look about the same as I remember. but,this might be a middle of the road way to resolve the term rehab or rebuilt, we can all agree that the structure is the same but there may have been ajustments and udates to the original structure and stations. do you feel this would be reasonable
john
Here's a general list of what was done to the Jamaica Ave el stations from 1987-89:
- Stairs replaced
- Mezzanines rehabilitated, some with tile floors. All received flourescent lighting.
- Sodium lamps replace incandescent fixtures at each uncovered end
- Flourescent lighting installed the length of canopies, replacing individual incandescent fixtures
- Each exiting stairway rebuilt, including new canopies over them. This is where the most extensive rehabilitating was done.
- 3 stations (Elderts Lane, Forest Parkway & 102nd St) had their part time mezzanines completely removed. This is why these 3 stations now sport additional numbers in their titles.
The vast majority of the concrete and steel on these stations was untouched. It was a heavy rehab, not rebuild.
we can all agree that the structure is the same but there may have been ajustments and udates to the original structure and stations. do you feel this would be reasonable
Yup, that we can all agree on. The disagreement seems to have arisen out of just a simple miscommunication about what is "rehabbed" or what is "rebuilt".
I'm sorry, but I stand by my original assumptions and post:
This (as well as any station on Jamaica Ave) is the same unrebuilt (although rehabbed) station
as this:
Chris, Is your second picture Cypress Hills? That looks a lot like New York's best high school in the background!
Thank you for the answers, guys.
I was wondering. Is it safe to take the Jamaica Line from Sutphin Blvd to Broadway Junction?
"I was wondering. Is it safe to take the Jamaica Line from Sutphin Blvd to Broadway Junction?"
Here we go again....
Uh, well, if you really want to know, safe is as safe does.
1. Step onboard train.
2. Sit down. Or
3. Stand up.
4. Look out window. Or
5. Look at ads. Or
6. Read. Or
7. Look at people. Or
8. Close eyes; fall asleep.
All that is safe. You can do it. It's safe. However, if at any point you emote loudly to the car how their respective mothers behave in private......, then
It is not safe.
I was wondering. Is it safe to take the Jamaica Line from Sutphin Blvd to Broadway Junction?
Yes, by all means ride it, it is perfectly safe, especially between Sutphin and BJ. And even though the line runs through a run down neighborhood from Broadway Junction to the Williamsburg Bridge, it's safe there too.
oh boy ...here we go again....so your saying the neighboorhood I grew up in ... is run down? Your cruzin'....
Oh boy. Well, if it makes you feel better, my grandparents started their lives along Broadway also, and my grandfather worked very hard in that neighborhood as an "iceman" and kerosene hauler of all things...so I do have roots there, even if I hadn't ever lived in that particular part of Brooklyn. Very early on they had moved to Bushwick, and later Ridgewood, but my granfather still worked as an "iceman" in Bedford-Stuyvesant and Bushwick until the refrigerators and central heating units were installed. But yes, unfortunately, although better than years ago, unfortunately it is a bit run down along Broadway.....
"I was wondering. Is it safe to take the Jamaica Line from Sutphin Blvd to Broadway Junction?"
Here we go again....
Uh, well, if you really want to know, safe is as safe does.
1. Step onboard train.
2. Sit down. Or
3. Stand up.
4. Look out window. Or
5. Look at ads. Or
6. Read. Or
7. Look at people. Or
8. Close eyes; fall asleep.
All that is safe. You can do it. It's safe. However, if at any point you emote loudly to the car how their respective mothers behave in private......, then
It is not safe.
Yep, that's Franklin K. Lane HS!
Yup, that's Cypress Hills and yes that's good ole F. K. Lane in the backround.
Actually, in this case they were not my photos, but photos right from this site.
I still have fond memories of my alma mater of fifty years ago!
From what I remember, the major change at 121st Street and the other Queens stations came in the mid to late 60s, when Q-panels (the corregated wall panels) and new signage, replacing the old BMT signage, was installed at stations like 121st Street. The major rehab work, which took place at stations like Woodhaven Boulevard, came in the mid-80s, which basically replaced the wall panels and installed new lighting.
- The Jamaica Ave el stations retained the old white on blue BMT signage into the late 1970's at many locations.
- The windscreen panels were not replaced during the late 80's rehabs.
BTW, does anyone know when the Jamaica Ave. el canopies had their asbestos tile rooves removed, being replaced with the current sheet-metal? It had to date before I was born (early 1970's). Oddly, the Broadway elevated station canopies didn't have them removed until a few years ago.
The windscreen panels had artwoek attached (or cut into them, such as what was done at Woodhaven Boulevard) at various points, plus I beleive that some of them were replaced.
Yes, each station did receive some sort of artwork.
And those pieces of art have garbage in them 8-(
Considering the effort involved with stuffing garbage into them, it's as much an act of vandalism as graffiti and scratchiti, and even harder to clean.
The Fulton St. J train stations are total rebuilds. I remember the time they were being rebuilt, and the entire existing structures, except underlying steelwork and canopy supports, were razed.
Exactly, and that's why I said 121st Street was "not" rebuilt, because I was thinking the original poster had that kind of construction in mind when he asked the question about 121st Street.
Alabama to Crescent is what I consider rebuilt stations, as this is a photo of them unrebuilt. What went on here is beyond "rehab"
I would add Marcy Avenue to the list of J line stations that is "rebuilt", however it's neighbors at Hewes, Lorimer, Flushing, (and the rest of Broadway) are NOT rebuilt...(yes edwards, I know what they currently look like), and even though they even have new concrete (which is more than Jamaica Ave stations got), I still say they are "rehabbed" as opposed to "rebuilt"....the original structure is intact.
Heh. Notice the piles of wood on the platforms. Fire, weather and vandalism must've keep the TA busy keeping those wooden platforms intact.
Hehe, yeah, those piles of wood made me laugh too when I first looked at that photo. Forget about dragging wood there, just keep the wood handy as it must have been a never ending job keeping those platforms intact near the end!
Do you know why Marcy Ave was not rebuilt during the dual contracts?
I asked that question about a year ago, and got a fairly good answer. Before the Broadway El was rebuilt under the dual contracts, most of the stations from Cypress Hills to Hewes Street were island platform stations (like in the photo of Alabama posted above) with two tracks. Marcy Avenue was always an island platform for some reason. When the Broadway el was rebuilt, they rebuilt the whole structure to four tracks, and all the stations were rebuilt to side platforms. I guess since Marcy was already a side platform station, they just left it be. Marcy originally had a layup track I believe on the original 1888 Broadway El, so it was not necessary to rebuild Marcy when they rebuilt the rest of the el and stations in the 1910's rebuilding. Of course that left marcy with it's original wood platforms, while all the other stations (except the Fulton Street section) got the dual contract concrete stations, with mezzanines, that are there today. Marcy was rebuilt to what is there now I believe in the early 80's or so.
Interestingly, in addition, that center track at Marcy (which was the layup track on the original 1888 el) originally became part of the express run after the rest of the line was triple tracked. The express tracks only merged with the local tracks after passing Marcy on the way to the WillyB, and Marcy was a local station . I don't know when they put the interlocking on the east side of Marcy.
Ahhh, Sorry dumb typo
This
Marcy Avenue was always an island platform for some reason.
Should say "Marcy Avenue was always an wall platform station", not "island" - sorry.
The switches were moved and Marcy Ave became an express stop sometime around 1960!
Wow, I didn;t knwo that. By the way in my post, I just noticed another typo. Obviously I didn't mean the Braodway el was rebuilt to four tracks, and meant three tracks.
Before 1960 Jamaica really did have an express. In those days the express ran from Eastern Parkway to Essex St with only one stop, Myrtle Ave. It was a great ride!
What always amazes me is that the line over Jamaica Ave was built with all local stations, even though provision was left for a center track. Now that would have been some express! 168th Street to Eastern Parkway without a stop! I wonder what they were thinking.
I also wonder what they had planned for the Alabama to Cypress Hill section. Obviously they had something different planned when they were rebuilding the Broadway el, and building the Jamaica Avenue section, because they didn't do anything about making the Fulton street section dual contracts, like they did over Broadway.
I don't think there was any thoughts of extending the line any further when Alabama Ave to Cypress Hills was built.
One might think that Dual Contracts was considering an express track above the stations, based on the steelwork to the west of Alabama Ave.
I wish that I had been around when the Cypress Hills station was the last stop and was located on Crescent St. I would have loved to have seen the center platform station, and the incline down to Jamaica Ave in operation.
There was a proposal in 1917 to build a Williamsburg Bridge Plaza station. This station design was to be similar to the current Myrtle Ave and Eastern parkway stations. If this was built, it would replace Marcy Ave, and Marcy would have been razed. As a result there would have been no reason to rebuild a station that was to be torn down, and it was bypassed in the dual contracts rebuild program.
That would explain why it looked like a Fulton St. el station on Pitkin Ave. before 1979. I wonder why this station was retained in it's condition, so close to the newer Hewes St.
I'm still wondering why they converted it from a local to an express stop!
I always assumed that this was done so that people who accidentally took a Manhattan bound express but wanted a local stop wouldn't have had to go all the way to Essex St to backtrack. But there is no free crossover at Marcy Ave! Maybe patronage was much higher than Hewes or Lorimer which justified the change.
Or maybe because of the bus terminal there?
Say, that looks like the Museum Train to me. All the cars are sporting fresh paint, and 1802 on the end is sporting an R-32 KK roll sign. The new route curtains installed on the R-7/9s on the Eastern Division did not include subscripts.
I Dunno, could be. Maybe this will help someone determine it if they recognize the date (just before my time) - Here's what the caption under the photo says:
R7 1465 @ Alabama Avenue (BMT Jamaica). (KK) Photo by Doug Grotjahn, 10/9/1970. Collection of Joe Testagrose. (110k)
Dunno, could be. Maybe this will help someone determine it if they recognize the date (just before my time) - Here's what the caption under the photo says:
R7 1465 @ Alabama Avenue (BMT Jamaica). (KK) Photo by Doug Grotjahn, 10/9/1970. Collection of Joe Testagrose. (110k)
Ignore that above post, I posted this under the wrong post!
The Jamaica Ave. el stations were rehabbed at the same time Archer Ave opened. The further the station was to the east, the earlier it was completed. Some stations like 121st and 111th were done before service to Jamaica Center commenced.
It has been there since 1918. The el was first cut back from 168th Street to Queens Boulevard. It was then cut back to 121st Street before the opening of the Archer Avenue Subway.
The current station has received the same modifications that other el stations have received in the last 25 years or so - windscreens replacing open fencing, improved lighting, new signage. 121st St. received no additional rebuild when the Archer subway opened; the new trackage into the tunnel begins just east (north) of the station, which was not impacted or moved because of the new subway.
It is as it was. The scissor crossover east of the station was installed in 1987, though.
If that was the case, then how did J trains reverse direction? Was there a different crossover after 121 St? (I still miss that green structure that went to Sutphin; I'm probably not old enough to even remember the el all the way to 168.)
From 111 St. they would cross to the middle track. Just before the current bumper block the TA did a temporary track modification. The middle track curved over to the Manhattan bound track, called a "hard rail connection". The train would now stop on the Manhattan bound platform of 121 St. and change direction for the next trip.
That setup was a pain in the ass during the morning rush, with only one track in use. Trains were always held at 111th St.
Prior to the use of the scissor crossover, the tracks between 111th and 121st were temporarily re-aligned. All trains switched over to the center track after leaving 111th. About a trainlength past this switch the center track merged with the Manhattan bound track. Part of the Manhattan-bound track was temporarily severed from service. All trains used the Manhattan-bound platform. Leaving 121st St trains used the temporary merger to the center track, then switched back to the Manhattan bound track just before arriving at 111th. The Jamaica bound track was used to store trains.
I rode the Jamaica line when the terminal was at Queens Blvd, but I never rode between the time when they cut it back to 121st, and when they extended it to Jamaica Center. Was the Jamaica Bound platform at 121st temporarily "abandoned" during that whole time?
I thought I seem to remember them using either platform at Queens Blvd when that station was the terminal, I was just wondering about 121st.
Not abandoned, just not used. The platform always had a laid up train on it. The track configuration during this time meant that any train headed to Manhattan from this platform could NOT cross over to the proper side before getting to 111th St. Laid up trains would wrong rail into the eastbound platform at 111th, then reverse direction thru the temporary track setup to get onto the Manhattan bound track.
Interesting. It certainly was not an ideal terminal. Luckily it wasn't for too many years.
Nope, just 2. Once the majority of the work connecting the ramp from the Archer Ave bellmouth to the existing steel structure was done, the tracks were restored and the new crossover east of 121st was used. Not sure exactly when this changeover happened, but I'm assuming it was in late 1987.
"I'm probably not old enough to even remember the el all the way to 168.)"
Heh. Well, I remember it. I think my memories of Jamaica Avenue was of probably the last time the Avenue was still considerd to be a valid shopping destination for a large area around it. Including Nassau/Suffolk and other boroughs of the city. Had big city style department stores, many many other small and medium shops, including a magic and practical jokes store that I loved to go to. Movies, banks, crowds of shoppers, the smells and sounds of the buses passing and the el train rumbling by every few minutes. When you're on a street like that you know that you've arrived at the "main drag".
The malls like Green Acres started the long reduction in regional importance of centers like Jamaica. What a calamity that cycle has been. I don't care about how momentarily convenient it is to be able to park in a huge lot and drive your stuff home. The overall results of this changeover has not been very good to out city. (Although thank goodness for places like 86th Street in Brooklyn. The rhythm still beats strongly, on streets like that.) I'm just glad I knew the Avenue when it was still a main destination. I mean, seeing the el supports was to me like seeing trees in the forest to a country boy. A natural, normal part of the scenery. Later, in the `70s and early `80s I was able to use the Jamaica el more frequently, as I had a girlfriend in Williamsburg and I lived in Central Islip. Those long nightime el rides from Hewes Street to Sutphin Blvd. on Sunday nights were good for the spirit.
My most vivid memory of the el was a giant billboard for the movie "Star Wars" attached to the very end of the structure at 168th St, easily visable after leaving the old "Mays" department store.
That's a great story. I have to agree, Jamaica Avenue definitely lost something when the el was removed. As a kid in the 70's, I had an Aunt that lived somewhere in the 150's and I remember taking the el to go visit her. She would usually meet me and my mother at Sutphin Station and we would then go eat somewhere before heading out further to go shopping at Mays or Gertz, etc. I also remember that billboard at the end at 168th Street very well (although not with "Star Wars" on it). I also remember riding under that rusting green el in the car with my father (it could have been after it closed, I don't remember) asking him why it was so rusty, and I nearly cried when he said they were going to take it away......
Heh. Well, I remember it. I think my memories of Jamaica Avenue was of probably the last time the Avenue was still considerd to be a valid shopping destination for a large area around it. Including Nassau/Suffolk and other boroughs of the city. Had big city style department stores, many many other small and medium shops, including a magic and practical jokes store that I loved to go to. Movies, banks, crowds of shoppers, the smells and sounds of the buses passing and the el train rumbling by every few minutes. When you're on a street like that you know that you've arrived at the "main drag".
The malls like Green Acres started the long reduction in regional importance of centers like Jamaica. What a calamity that cycle has been. I don't care about how momentarily convenient it is to be able to park in a huge lot and drive your stuff home. The overall results of this changeover has not been very good to out city.
Some of the merchants who were along Jamaica Avenue had to bear partial blame for the area's decline. They pressured the MTA to remove the elevated line because they considered it noisy, unsightly and downscale, even though everyone knew that the Archer Avenue subway was still years off. Well, the merchants got their wish, and the fact that the neighborhood therefore was left without effective mass transit for a decade was one of the factors - of course, there were others - that contributed to its decline. If there's any poetic justice in the situation, it's that many of the merchants who demanded the el's premature removal soon became casualties of Jamaica's decline.
Yup, very true. If they had been smart, they should have kept the el until around the time when the line was cut back the second time to 121st Street to connect the Archer in the late 80's. That would have left a much shorter time frame without subway service (although Jamaica Center still falls short of where the old el used to go to 168th Street).
Would anyone happen to have any photos of the El east of Queens Blvd during demolition? I witnessed in person the actual demolition of the Metropolitan Ave and Queens Blvd portion along with the Culver shuttle section. Cried my eyes out.
Click Here, Today's Tunnel Vision
Congratulations on your day of fame, Clayton!
Yeah, congrats. On a related note, after my (B) train had come to a stop inbetween stations this morning, the C/R today announced, "The train has momentarily come to a stop. We will be moving shortly." WOW. How did he figure that one out?
---Brian
www.railfanwindow.com
Hey at least he didn't give you the announcement I heard on the N/B D train just south of 59 today: "Due to congestion ahead of us we are delayed, please be patient". 3 minutes later the "congestion ahead of us" passed us on the left.
Peace,
ANDEE
My C/R (oops! guard) on the MBTA Red Line this morning must have been a rail fan. Arriving at Park Street (Alewife bound), he announced, "Ladies and gentlemen, this train will be crossed-over at the next interlocking, and return in service to Braintree so that we can close a gap in service."
Most in my car said, "HUH?" But then, the automated announcement (it was an 1800-set, David Cole) came on and boomed, "LAST STOP! THANK YOU FOR RIDING THE T!" And everyone got off the train.
HAHA
Nice. A moment of glory.
Held for an A? The conductor even BOTHERED? That's what the middle ramp is FOR fer krimminy's sake. If there's an A train north of Chambers St, the D gets to wait for it. That required an ANNOUNCEMENT? :)
I remember on April Fool's Day in 1993 when I rode an "F" train to 179th St. Jamaica, the conductor would announce loud and clear just before he was ready to close the doors "STEP IN, PLEASE STAND CLEAR OF THE DOORS!!" and then you would hear the "DING!, DONG!" of the door chimes since I was riding a train of R-46s. I'll never forget that and sometimes just for fun I like to mimic that conductor by saying "STEP IN, PLEASE STAND CLEAR OF THE DOORS!!, "DING!, DONG!"
#3 West End Jeff
I don't get it.
[...the C/R today announced, "The train has momentarily come to a stop. We will be moving shortly."]
IIRC, the conductor is also supposed to announce WHY the train is delayed. For example, yesterday at 3:15 PM at West 4th Street: "This Queens-bound F train is being held for a connection with the next Grand Street Shuttle" (which is 12 minutes away - since the previous shuttle had just left).
So, who gave Mr Kennedy an outdated copy of the Blue Book? The current version has 31 pages. "Stand clear of the closing doors, please," doesn't show up until page 16; "We are delayed bya person on the tracks," is on page 25, and; "Please release the train doors so that the train can leave the station," is only to be used after "Ladies and Gentlemen, please do not hold the train doors open." They are not either/or choices.
Maybe Jimmy did. Fell into the whole give the media stuff and info to get my name in writing crowd.
I am not a native of NYC, and I am always reading about people holding the doors open. Why do they do this? I don't get it.
Pretty easy if you think about it. To let other people, like friends or relatives board, maybe someone has a baby stroller. You have to remember, these are New Yorkers we are talking about.
I was just wondering, why do all the stations on the Canarsie, Jamaica, Broadway, Myrtle, and Crosstown Lines have closed "Emergency" exits? How much could it possibly cost to put in HEET turnstiles in some of them? They don't even need a station agent to watch it if they used those. It's a pain always having to walk to the opposite end of the platform to get in, meanwhile missing my train. The worst of all is Broadway Junction, where you must climb 4 stories then go down one just to get on the J or L trains, when there are two exits on Broadway, both closed. Couldn't they open even ONE?
About 0758 hours this morning a propane car derailed at the New York & Atlantic's Fresh Pond Yard. There is no leak and no spill. FDNY and NYPD are monitoring the situation. No effect to NYCTA passenger service. At this time, new car delivery for tonight is cancelled.
Oh well! At least the car isn't leaking anything!
-Stef
I'm sure some of the crew did! lol
Just lucky it was being moved in the yard -- otherwise speeds would have been greater and with propane cars -- ya don't wanna mess with those at high speeds. :O
Coming after the tanker explosion on Staten Island, a propane blast in Queens would have really unnerved a lot of people (though if you really want to see something weird, wait until a liquid nitrogen tank car explodes).
Coming after the tanker explosion on Staten Island, a propane blast in Queens would have really unnerved a lot of people
For sure. What with all the paranoid bedwetting cowards and ignorant schmucks on Wall Street, a propane blast would've dropped the Dow 100 points ... oh wait, that's already happened.
Sidenote: Investors are said to be "unnerved" by a bomb blast at the airport in the city of Davao in the Philippines - a place that 99% of Americans couldn't find on a map, and a news item that would have been virtually ignored 18 months ago. Christ.
Yea, I saw that today on the noon Wall Street report AP sends out. It gives me a mental image of all these big mutual fund managers looking and acting something like Don Knotts whenever some minor unexpected thing comes up.
Yea, I saw that today on the noon Wall Street report AP sends out. It gives me a mental image of all these big mutual fund managers looking and acting something like Don Knotts whenever some minor unexpected thing comes up.
Maybe tomorrow at lunch I'll walk down Wall Street with a dish towel over my head. Watch the stock indices around 12:30, if all goes according to plan you should see a 5% drop while I'm perambulating. Assuming, of course, that doesn't happen anyhow.
I just can't comprehend how the United States ever got through World War II, the Cold War, and so on. Past generations must have been a hell of a lot more courageous than today's cowards.
Maybe tomorrow at lunch I'll walk down Wall Street with a dish towel over my head. Watch the stock indices around 12:30, if all goes according to plan you should see a 5% drop while I'm perambulating. Assuming, of course, that doesn't happen anyhow.
If you try uulating while you do it, you can probably knock 10 percent off the market's price...
Maybe tomorrow at lunch I'll walk down Wall Street with a dish towel over my head. Watch the stock indices around 12:30, if all goes according to plan you should see a 5% drop while I'm perambulating. Assuming, of course, that doesn't happen anyhow.
If you try uulating while you do it, you can probably knock 10 percent off the market's price...
Now, if I rode a camel instead of walking ... well, it would be October 1929 all over again.
Paturkey has been promising them upgrades to their facilities for years now, and still nothing. If I'm not mistaken, they also dropped a train on the bushwick branch last week.
the tracks are in shit condition, and since the RR doesn't own them, there's nothing they can do but deal wait until someone gets killed in order for the problems to be taken seriously... of course, once that happens though, they'll call the RR a nusance...
NY&A's situation within city limits seems no better than the old Cross Harbor's sitaution. (more on that here" http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/02/nyregion/02RAIL.html?pagewanted=1 )
The only thing either of them have in their favor is that the tracks are so bad they can't move very fast, leaving the frequent derailments not-too-distructive and rather unnewsworthy.
Expect a lot more cars to hit the floor before anything gets fixed.
Believe it or not, but a derailment -- if not hazardouse to persons and/or cargo -- is HELPFUL to NY&A...it's the only time ties -- and occasionally rail -- get replaced! :)
LOL! So all they have to do is keep derailing cars?! Maybe when the stone traffic starts they can drag a derailed train of them through the yard and get the tracks redone one at a time!
Maybe this explains the plethora of freight trains I saw on the Bay Ridge line as I rode past it on the N today.
Email the MTA here.
At least it's a form. Not the e-mail address itself.
Yeah, I saw that last night and I thought of your December 2002 thread. But I figured it must have been added to the site previously and I just hadn't seen it until now.
---Brian
Well, now you can email your questions as well. I had a feeling you could, sooner or later.
It's about damn time, now all the foamers can go crazy. But be advised someone on the inside told me it has a vulgarity filter.
Peace,
ANDEE
Do you know if questions and suggestions are forwarded to the appropriate parties? If I write a long, detailed suggestion, I want to be sure it's read by more than a customer service agent.
Sorry, I do not know.
Peace,
ANDEE
The "vulgarity filters" ... are they INBOUND or OUTBOUND? :)
Both.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh, I'd give my left nut to define the lookup tables. qwap, sheet, phuck, wankel rotary engine ... :)
I'll see of I can get the lookup tables for you. My contact works in IT. They have always had the filters, even before public exposure.
Peace,
ANDEE
Don't mind me if I find the concept dumb ... sometimes you WANT to know just how "hot" the complainant is. And when you work in civil service, well ... you should be able to handle the obscenities. After all, ever have a politician in your face? For masters of "decorum" many are a sight to behold. :)
I've seen some funny results with vulgarity filters.
Names like:
Lipshitz or Takashite
become:
Lip[censored]z and Taka[censored]e
LOL
Parliament's e-mail filter celebratedly bounced back an e-mail from a man named Butt.
Did anyone read any of the Subway FAQs? Some are priceless.
Lol yes! I personally liked "Where is Grand Central Terminal?", "Is the Port Authority Bus Terminal at Penn Station?", "What should I know if I am a disadvantaged-, minority-, or women-owned business and want to do business with the MTA?", "If my bus or subway train is late, can I get a letter for my employer?"...
Well, they better add a few more to the subway FAQ's or knowing some railfans, the poor "email reader" will run screaming out of the office and quit after a week. I can hear it now.......
"Is there really a 76th Street station?"
"WHen is the transit museum opening?"
"Why are the platforms offset on the lower Lexington line?"
"Why don't they fold up the cabs so people can see out the front window?"
Why don't they use R40's on the A train anymore?"
.....and the list continues......
Very nice that they've added that.
The best way to communicate with them is still by US mail or by telephone, however.
Is there a conductors test coming up anytime soon (like within the next year or so)? I've been checking with DCAS and on the MTA's website, but I haven't found any info, has anyone heard anything?
Nope,as far as I know,there isn't any conductors test coming up this year nor next.I'm waiting to see when the next conductor's test will be too.I'm dyin to be a conductor for the TA.
I'm dyin to be a conductor for the TA.
When's the funeral? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Conductor is not a job worth dying over. Trust me!
I don't think there will be one anytime soon. They still have a list out from the Exam in 1999 and they stopped hiring off the list because of the hiring freeze.
B division C/R school car is taking their yard practical at CIY tomorrow morning at 8am. They just hired 10 people.
Thats good to hear. I understand B Div needs all the C/R's they can get.
THere must be atleat 30 new C/R in this class, I think that this is the smallest number they have per class. Also they most likey got in right before the freeze was put in.
Robert
Actually, I believe there were only 10 people in this class. My friend was called on a Wednesday, and the TA asked him if he could start next Monday. He said yes, and they told him to report to ENY. Naturally, when Monday rolled around, there were only 9 students, b/c one had already dropped out. I don't know how many failed school car, and I don't care anymore.
Why? Because I don't understand why they don't recruit some T/O's over to the B division. They recently recruited 35 C/R's. There's definitely a shortage of T/O's in the B. Almost daily, the B div crew office assigns voluntary overtime to an average of 25-35 T/O's a day. That's alot of overtime. Now, let's look at the A division T/O sheets. How many T/O's are working board/GAP/WAA today? 50? 60? It's just a matter of time before someone realizes that the B division needs T/O's, and the A division has plenty to spare. I know T/O's in the A divsion who have not been given voluntary overtime in four months.
Tolls are killing me and my co-workers from Brooklyn, Queens, and Long Island. Over the course of a year, we will spend the equivalent of 3 weeks take home pay on TOLLS and GAS. So whatever overtime we make working 10 hour yard jobs, or 9+ hour jobs on the 3 and 4 lines, is offset by toll and gas costs. Oh well, at least I have a job. I guess I should count my blessings, and just deal with it.
I know a lot of new T/O's that would kill to be in B Div. One T/O I worked with one time loves the subway and lives around Coney Island he wrote many G2's already but they just keep him on the #2 Line out of White Plains.
If there is indeed a hiring freeze, it's just a matter of time before the B division asks for some volunteers. If not, I'm going to be stuck in the A for awhile longer.
Did you know that there are about 4 classes in A division school car as we speak? I can't believe they're still hiring.
Nothing wrong with the A div. Great people. Great management. Great equipment(except the R-36 on the 7). The 6 line is great. The 7 is usually great. The 1 can be fun, and I love the 2 line. The 4 is by far the worst, and the 5 is not far behind on my "worst lines" list. The 3 is also a terrible place to be.
There are so many penalty jobs in the A division yards and road. I can't wait to see the call sheets when they come out. I bet you'll see no less than 25 T/O's from the B division transferring over. Maybe more.
"Hiring freezes" can be gotten around, it merely requires the agency to demonstrate greater than planned "attrition" and the declaration of an "emergency" if they fall TOO short of people to do the job. Where it gets interesting though is that in an "emergency" people can be hired as "temporaries" or "provisionals" and given a job for six months and then put on the street if the agency's financial situation doesn't improve (and here it won't) ...
So never say never - political agencies can do whatever they feel the NEED to do, regardless of "freezes" ... and if there's survivors on the "eligible list" who haven't been called up for school car, they can go there first. They might even do another set of civil service tests and list-filling even if there will never be anyone hired. Some interesting times ahead - watch the rules bend. Watch rocks float. Film at 11 ...
Those 4 classes need to be going to B Div I hear they need them more then A Div. However I don't mind taking students.
My favorite IRT lines from Best to Worst 5,6,1,3,2,4,7. The #5 is the best in my opinion because of the diffrent locations in the IRT you can end up and I just like the Dyre Line but pass on the eats. The #7 sucks because the R36's are not C/R friendly and the R62 singles I hate because you have to cross over with the door opening out instead of in.
50 C/R's was hired last week. 30 to the A div. 20 to the B.
Currently, there are T/O school car classes in both the A and B as we speak.
I noticed that you listed the 7 line as your least favorite line. It seems like everyone hates that line. I used to think it was the greatest until I got one of those 5 trippers that pays only 8 hrs. Who writes these jobs?
I've been watching the new show "Miracles" on ABC Mondays @ 10pm EST. (I think its good, like "The X-Files" meets "The Sixth Sense.") Last night, the main characters, who investigate seemingly paranormal miracles, travelled from Boston (where they are based) to Hartford via train. The scenes at Hartford station clearly weren't filmed at the actual Hartford station -- the station in the show was a grade level affair, with the tracks running at grade far enough for the lead character to run alongside them (in an effort to stop the train, which he *knew* was about to crash). The train exterior was gray and had no other livery (it may have been digitally removed in post-production). The interior scenes were filmed on rolling stock which was definitely not of the Amfleet or Heritage variety you would likely see on the Boston-Hartford run, with a rather ornate dining car, actually.
There was also a scene at the beginning of the show in which a T bus blows up. This bus may very well have been a T bus, with its yellow and white livery, and with the location looking very much like it could have actually been in Boston. [Setting this scene on a bus rather than a Heath-bound Type 7 LRV was probably easier for the production, but not as fun for me :O) ]
I'm guessing this TV show is filmed in Vancouver, and the train was probably a VIA train. I am familiar with Amtrak and GO equipment, yet this consist of gray rolling stock was unfamiliar to me. Perhaps it was L.A. commuter equipment. Can anyone verify the location and origin of the trains?
<< There was also a scene at the beginning of the show in which a T bus blows up. This bus may very well have been a T bus, with its yellow and white livery, and with the location looking very much like it could have actually been in Boston. >>
Ah, so that's where it was. I didn't see the show but I did see a promo for it, all I could tell was that the doomed bus was an RTS.
The commuter equipment in LA (Metrolink) would be the Bombardier "lozenge" shaped cars painted white with purplish-blue striping/lettering. Doesn't sound like LA to me.
http://www.lirr.org/lirr/html/lirrmap.htm
On this map you can see that is much closer to NY then .
Most pax must transfer to a MU at Huntington which, when running of peak makes all local stops to New Hyde Park. Ronkonkoma trains stop at Hicksville, Mineola then Jamaica. I find that this is vert unfair to PJ customers. Should the local stops between Hicksville and Jamaica be split between the two lines? For example, the train form RON should make Merillon AVE and NHP while the PJ connection makes Westbury and Carle Place? This is done on the weekends and it seems like a fair deal.
Most people would agree that this does seem unfair, but the reason it was done was because there was no electric service out to Ronkonkoma. When electrification came to Ronkonkoma, the LIRR ran big ads that you could not get into the city in less time because of the new service. So explains why there is express service for that line as opposed to the Hungtington line.
Actually, on weekends, there is no PJ service into the city. The line operates as a Hicksville-Jeff shuttle, with limited service to Jamaica. Also, no PJ train will make all those stops. For the most part, the stops are made by Huntington-only trains.
Have you ever had to ride the train to or from Ronkonkoma on a weekend?
It is the most aggravating ride, why cant there be an express train
to Hicksville?
the ride is almost an hour and a half!
Can anyone tell me why there are no TVMs at the LIRR station at Woodside?...I remember seeing the old one there before, but now there seems to be NONE!......
There was a (new-style) LIRR TVM at Woodside on Valentine's Day, when I ended up there to catch a Port Washington-bound train (after finding LIRR service from Penn Station suspended because of that track fire). I actually started to buy a ticket, until I realized there was no way LIRR would be collecting any fares.
Yesterday night while I was on the 7 train going eastbound, I noticed that the Hunterspoint station for the LIRR was totally in the dark. Why is that?...I always saw it lit up always until now.
Whats the point?
No trains are stopping there after 6:30 PM
Has the MTA introduced a new production line of MetroCards that feature "safety messages" on the backs of the cards? My mom got a MetroCard last month that had a message about slowing down on stairways and escalators, and to always hold handrails on stairways and escalators. The two-line message has a top and a bottom border with slanted blocks going in one direction (IIRC) and looks like a "railroad native."
Are all current MetroCards this way?
Who can endorse designs and programs on MTA MetroCards?
'Railroad Native'?
That's the design used on conductor boards. The conductor has to make sure he/she is at that point and point too to ensure the train matches exactly with the station. Otherwise, don't open the doors!
Peter,
I guess you have been away from this board for a while because these cards have been out since the latter part of 2002. There are 4 cards so far:
#1 Why run for the train. There's another one just like it on the way.
#2 Please, no running in the station. (Although we applaud your boundless energy and zest for living.)
#3 Hold onto your youth, your dreams and while you're at it, the handrails.
#4 Please use the escalators on stairs and escalators. They're free.
The messages are boardered by the black/white stripes emulating the C/R stopping board.
What are the physical differences of these locomotives. I can't distinguish any up close.
I haven't seen this posted here; sorry if it has been. On Tuesday, March 11, between 1100 hours and 1400 hours there will be a Jamaica line super express operational test. Approximately four designated intervals in each direction will operate local between Marcy and Myrtle.
Four super express trains will operate light between Jamaica Center and Broad Street, making simulated stops in each direction at the following stations: Jamaica Center, Sutphin, Woodhaven, Crescent, Broadway Junction, Essex, Canal, Chambers, Fulton, and Broad.
Southbound departures will leave Jamaica Center 20 minutes apart between 1128 hours and 1228 hours; northbound departures will leave Broad Street 20 minutes apart between 1244 hours and 1344 hours.
Southbound express will operate via Track J2 from Jamaica Center to north of Broadway Junction, then via J3/4 to north of Marcy, then via J2/R1 to Broad. Northbound will operate via R2/J1/J4/J1 from Broad to north of Marcy, then via J3/4 to north of Broadway Junction, then J1 to Jamaica Center.
This is in General Order 3426-03.
What exactly is this trying to test? An actual possible service pattern?
If there's serious thought to a Jamaica super-express, I wonder if there's sufficient demand to route it from Essex to 8th Avenue through the Chrystie Street connection? The challenge then is to find a north terminal that doesn't tie up traffic.
This could potentially replace the J/Z skip-stop serivce; the J would be the local, and the Z the new super-express. Or, it could be a resurrected K. Or (heaven forbid), a P.
Or, an alternative idea would be to run it from Jamaica Center to Continental Ave via the Christie Street connection and 6th Avenue, replacing the current V's south terminal of Second Ave.
(If there's serious thought to a Jamaica super-express, I wonder if there's sufficient demand to route it from Essex to 8th Avenue through the Chrystie Street connection?)
Todd, the Regional Plan Association is pushing the super express as an alternative to the Brookfield plan to get a better ride for LIRR riders and Airtrain riders to Lower Manhattan.
I'm surprised they are going to try it with the existing infrastructure. The transfer means going from up above to deep underground. And there is no third track, so they'll have to time a battery run.
As you know from other threads, we had discussed putting in a third track from 121st to Broadway Junction -- incluing one track on a viaduct straight down Jamacia, avoiding the Crescent Street curve. Such a service could have orignated/terminated up on the LIRR level with 12 tph, supplementing the existing J/M/Z.
Too bad it isn't 100 years ago, pre NIMBY, consultants, construction unions, budget approvals, etc. They would have had the third track in and used for express service in four months with line-of-sight operating (the signals and interlockings would come later). And you know, the 1/9 restoration shows the TA personnel, engineers, and NYC contruction workers and contractors are fully capable of doing it right now.
(I'm surprised they are going to try it with the existing infrastructure. The transfer means going from up above to deep underground. And there is no third track, so they'll have to time a battery run. )
Looking at the J/Z schedule, it looks like it might work. The following could happen every 12 minutes:
00: Z train, current skip stop to eastern Parkway, uses express tracks after Eastern Parkway. The semi-express, 44 minutes to Broad St.
03: J train, current skip-stop, plus all stops after Eastern Parkway. The near-local, 48 minutes.
09: Super-express. Makes up 4 minutes relative to the J on the way to Eastern Parkway, then uses the express track. Passes the previous J but does not catch up to the previous Z. 41 minutes to Broad St.
12: start all over again.
It seems more viable for people taking the bus to Parsons/Archer than for LIRR passengers. The latter probably would still be better off going to Flatbush. But it might encourage the Parsons crowd to take the faster trains through Brooklyn rather than the E.
The J line still suffers from an inordinate amount of timers and wheel detectors which make traversing this line over it's full length an ordeal. The super express option doesn't address this problem.
I see a few problems with this approach:
Skip-stop stations will have service reduced from 6 tph to 5 tph.
J and Z trains will have uneven loading. (Why not have the J and Z run exactly as they do now? The superexpress still probably wouldn't pass the Z -- but if it does, big deal.)
The M may introduce problems in both directions.
Is total service of 15 tph, or more south of Myrtle, warranted? Even if so, might it not make sense to send one of the three distinct services uptown rather then sending them all to Broad (and beyond, in the case of the M)?
Aye, but you need at least one Montague service through Broad at least during weekday/evening hours.
Does an extended "V" to Canarsie factor into this equation?
wayne
See my other post about running all Canarsie services via Broadway-Brooklyn and terminating the L at Broadway Junction. I was being deliberately vague, but perhaps the new Canarsie service could be the V (or C, under an alternative version, with the V running to Euclid and perhaps the E and F swapping terminals as well to avoid merging delays at W4).
A"s you know from other threads, we had discussed putting in a third track from 121st to Broadway Junction -- incluing one track on a viaduct straight down Jamacia, avoiding the Crescent Street curve. Such a service could have orignated/terminated up on the LIRR level with 12 tph, supplementing the existing J/M/Z."
Even if you had to follow the Crescent Street curve to avoid $$$ and NIMBY problems, it would still gain you something useful. It's worth considering.
"Too bad it isn't 100 years ago, pre NIMBY, consultants, construction unions, budget approvals, etc."
Don't waste your time or ours crying about that. Also, don't forget that the Capital Planning process is what saved the TA and allowed new construction of all types to go ahead. I don't want to go back to the "good old days."
The Brookfield plan, in my view, was terrible. In contrast to that, this plan is much better, but I'd rather not ever use anything like the Brookfield 'plan' as a baseline.
The Broadway El plan, insofar as something done with infrastructure as it now exists, seems too ambitious to me, though. With some of the ideas for new construction, the express service idea becomes more viable, but it seems to me that the whole concept is ahead of its potential time. If it should ever come between the Brookfield plan and this one, though, I would be squarely for this one.
Hopefully, the Brookfield plan has been relegated to the abyss it belongs in-anyone know if this is so?
Hopefully, the Brookfield plan has been relegated to the abyss it belongs in-anyone know if this is so?
Hopefully Brookfield have seen sense and will spend a little money on the BJ - Cypress Hills flyover instead of on expensive tunnels.
Just a really random thought - take 2 tracks South of Chambers St, drop them down below the other lines, then run crosstown on Vesey St to a terminal between Greenwich and West Sts - that would satisfy their purpose completely!
Then a peak direction service could be run with the following stops: Jamaica Center, Sutphin, BJ, Marcy, Essex, Bowery, Canal, Chambers, Vesey St Terminal (WTC).
Just call it the "Z" and be done with it!
wayne
What's the point? It's just gonna have to slow down to 15MPH every station, what'll it save, two, three minutes at most? The only part of this plan that makes any sense is making use of the center track from Bway Jct to Myrtle. Now, that could save about 3-4 minutes alone. The rest is pointless without an express track of some kind.
Exactly that -- useless. First like you mention, slowing to 15 MPH. Second, this will work on a 10 minute headway, but try less, and you'll have the "SuperExpress" running into the its leader, which is running local on the same track PA-J to ENY. So to make this a real service wouldn't make any sense.
Also, I haven't been on a train switched over at ENY except due to a problem in service, but IIRC trains have to take the switch real slow, which hurts time there.
And light trains simulating stops? What would make more sense is to do like the "V" line test in 9/01, which would be to run it, picking up passengers. You'll have confusion of course, but we all know ENY is one station you don't get the doors closed in 10 seconds. The confusion caused and door holding would make the test more "accurate".
Build an express track, widen Woodhaven Blvd into an express stop (I believe there is adequate room from looking at it from the street), make this express track feed off at Cypress Hills along Jamaica Ave to above Alabama Ave where it comes down into the trackway in plain view. Without all of these (except the Woodhaven Blvd extension isn't immediately necessary) the express will save nothing, especially since the J/Z make only half the stops already with the skip-stop.
they use to run a service like this in the mornings[two trips]and the evenings[a few trips] on the QJ/J,and on the KK between ENY and Jamaica......
They also did something like that on the Canarsie Line (between Lorimer and Myrtle) years back.
Inbound, any express service would have to be designed to catch up to the local just before B'way Junction in order to allow it to pass at least one local J or Z train, plus possibly an M train between Myrtle and Marcy, and have any effect at all on the time schedule. If not, the MTA would just be creating a more glorified "skip stop" train that doesn't open its doors at a few more stations than before, but really achieves no time savings on the Broad-Parsons run.
PM rush would be even trickier, since the routing down the Broadway-B'klyn express track would have to take into account any M trains in front of it that would need to use the crossover east of Myrtle (outbound M trains in AM rush could be held at Myrtle to allow the inbound trains to pass with far fewer complications).
B'way-B'ylyn express service has been done before, of course, but enough riders would have to notice a difference in travel time in order to (presumably) draw more Jamaica-area passengers headed downtown off of the E and justify the change to offset the slightly longer ride J passengers at non-express stops would be forced to endure.
And any use of the Chrystie St. connection east of B'way Junction would either be as unsuccessful as the old KK was due to the huge number of local stops, or unfair to downtown J train riders, if it was designated the express service in order to attract more midtown passengers off the E train going to/from Jamaica. In the future, when the CTBC tests are completed on the Canarsie route, I think the best option would be sending selected V trains via Chystie Street via B'way-B'klyn local to Canarsie. That would permit all J or Z trains to operated peak-direction express from Broadway Junction to Marcy while giving Rockaway Parkway riders a one-seat ride to Midtown Manhattan (and which is a topic that's been covered dozens of times on the board before).
It would also run empty after Sutphin Blvd. The express will undoubtedly catch up to the local up in front of it, pulling into each elevated "express" stop right behind the previous local train. Savvy J riders at these stations will not "wait for an express" because this express trains can not physically pass the local until it reaches Broadway Junction.
I don't see any advantage to a super express over the current skip/stop setup. In fact, I see more problems.
That's why I think the best future option would be keeping the J/Z skip-stop along Jamaica Ave., and running both peak direction express while extending two out of every three V trains to Rockaway Parkway (the other would still terminate at Second Ave.). That would be the best way to speed up service for passengers at all stations between Parsons and B'way Juntion, not just selected ones.
You couldn't do it right now, of course, because of the signal testing on the Canarise line, but by the time that's completed, and possibly when the new 60-foot R-160 trains arrive, the Canarise-B'way Bklyn connection could be reactivated and Jamaica Ave. riders would only have to deal with two stops going to/from East New York and Manhattan during rush hours.
And actually with that, the local stations from Marcy to Broadway Junction riders would get the added bonus of direct 6th Ave service (and M and J/Z riders would have an across the platform (or same platform) transfer to 6th ave service.
I'm wary of sending service thru the Bway Junction crossover to Canarsie. I don't want any of the capacity of the Rockaway Parkway terminal dedicated to a line which doesn't run along the L line's most heavily used section, which west of Broadway Junction, to service the Broadway elevated, which is already well serviced by current J/Z trains. You could short turn some trains at Myrtle Ave on the L, but what advantage is there to doing all of this?
Very true. Actually, the railfan in me sometimes jumps before the logical person comes through. The heavy part of the line is west of Myrtle, and were extra service would be more needed. The canarsie end does not really warrant that much extra service. As mentioned, Myrtle could be used as a terminal to add service west of it. The V would run to Rockaway Parkway. The only part of the line that would miss out would be Halsey, Wilson, and Bushwick (although I think Bushwick is a fairly low use station).
Although it would be a cool line from a railfan's perspective (however unneeded), using two unused connections. I know you have stated many times you are against using the 6th ave connection, but I really think that part of the idea is a good one. It's what to do with the V after it's on Broadway. Unfortunately, the V would be of more use to the M line north of Myrtle or even the Jamaica line. Unfortunately sending the V down Broadway and to Canarsie are just the parts of the Eastern Division that could use the Chrystie connection the least.
Well, since any possible implmentation of such a service would be half a decade away at the earliest, the MTA would have plenty of time to survey riders boarding at Rockaway Parkway or other stations south of Atlantic Ave., along with Canarsie express bus passengers if they would like a one seat ride to midtown Manhattan if it also meant a slight decrease in rush hour service to/from Eighth Ave.-14th St.
As you said, trains could be turned at Myrtle as they were during the skip-stop days on the Canarise line. If two out of every three L trains went to Rockaway Pkwy. during rush hours and two out of every three V trains went there as well, I don't think the total increase in service would overwhelm the terminal.
If Canarsie passengers were shown to support V train service and if the number of TPH wasn't too much for either Rockaway Pkwy. or the Wille B to handle, then the next question would be if the additional service would justify a slight reduction in peak direction local stop service at Koscizuzko, Gates and Halsey on the Broadway-Brooklyn line, and in service in both directions at Bushwick-Aberdeen, Wilson and Halsey on the L.
The M/V merger option also has been discussed on the board many times, and could be looked at as well. That wouldn't require any significant increase in TPH over the Willie B that adding a seperate V line to Canarsie would, but at the same time it removes the option of peak direction J/Z express service all the way from East New York to Marcy. In practice, that might only save a couple of minutes of travel time, but combined with ENY-Parsons skip-stop service, if it could get enough boarding passengers at Jamaica to go one flight further down and take the J or Z instead of the E to lower Manhattan, thereby easing crowding on the rest of the Queens Blvd. line, it would be worth it.
Well, all what you said makes sense, but the real answer to me, is not the J/Z skip-stop, or a super express on the local tracks, but the forever talked about third track over Jamaica Avenue. Amazingly, out of all the lines that have unused express tracks on them: the Culver, the West End, Jerome, White Plains, Sea Beach, and upper Broadway, etc; the one line that should have been built with an express track, and the one line out of those lines that really needs one, and the one line that would probably really be using it today if it had it.....is ironically the one where it didn't get built, the Jamaica line.
Given the distance to Manhattan and the fact that it's pretty much local all the way, the J counts as one of the most irritating trips into and out of the main business area of the city. All the other lines mentioned either go express or have the option to change to the express before the majority of people reach their destinations. Even if the difference is only a matter of minutes, the perception without a doubt keeps a lot of people off the line and keeps them on the E around Jamaica, or on the A or C trains going downtown from the East New York area.
New construction on Jamaica Ave. would be the best option, but given the MTA's priorities, just reactivating the express track on Broadway and continuing skip-stop west of there is about as much as can be expected. Since the flying junction at East New York between the L and J connects to the Broadway local tracks, the J/Z express service could run through the station at the same time an inbound/outbound V train is stopped there. That would leave the merge at Marcy inbound and coordinating the M train grade crossing with the J/Z express outbound as the main slowdown spots for any express service.
It's not a perfect answer, but it's better than the current situation.
Even if the difference is only a matter of minutes, the perception without a doubt keeps a lot of people off the line and keeps them on the E around Jamaica, or on the A or C trains going downtown from the East New York area.
The difference is only a matter of minutes -- in favor of the J/Z. Perception is the enemy.
Well, maybe five years from now, when the first of the R-160s start showing up, if they did implement the V-Canarsie option, those brand-new digital destination signs on the R-160s can say to AM rush hour passengers "J-Jamaica Ave-B'way Brooklyn express" "To Broad Street-Manhattan."
Actually seeing the magical word "express" on the side signs of the cars might finally get some people to try the line, instead of sardine-packing themselves inside the E every morning.
ANd actually, the perception is a bit false for Jamaica to downtown riders. I rememebr someone mentioning here that Jamaica Center to Chambers Street via J/Z skip stop is actually faster than Jamaica Center to WTC via the E. Of course, midtown is another story, but possible the V running on the Eastern Division could alleviate that a bit.
I think that was me. J/Z is faster than E. J/Z is faster than E to 6. J/Z is faster than E to 6 to 4/5. Or, rather, J/Z takes less time. It's slower, but it takes a more direct route. The E does move fast in Queens, but it's going the wrong way.
What E riders like is the thought that going express means faster. With service reliability, on time performance, less crowding and fewer abandoned intervals on the J vs. the E, the J is the better choice, but Supthin/Jamaica Center riders shun the J as compared to the E. I would wager many of those E riders would make better commuting time by taking the J/Z to B'way/Jct. and transfering to the A.
I would wager many of those E riders would make better commuting time by taking the J/Z to B'way/Jct. and transfering to the A.
E Train: average headway = 5 mins; average wait = 2½ mins
From Jamaica Center:
34th St: 39 mins (total = 41½ mins)
W4th St: 45 mins (total = 47½ mins)
Chambers: 50 mins (total = 52½ mins)
J/Z Train: average headway = 5 mins; average wait = 2½ mins
From Jamaica Center:
BJ: 21 mins (total = 23½ mins)
Allow 5 mins for transfer
A Train: average headway = 4 mins; average wait = 2 mins
From Broadway Junction:
Chambers: 22 mins (total = 52½ mins)
W4th St: 26 mins (total = 56½ mins)
34th St: 32 mins (total = 1 hour 2½ mins)
Therefore, you theoretically only gain time doing J/Z to A over the E train if you are going to a station South of Chambers St. At Chambers St you break even.
I realize you were responding to another post, but the apples to apples comparison is Jamaica to Chambers or Fulton/WTC via E or via J/Z without a change. There the J/Z wins by a few minutes. As you go further south, the J/Z wins by many more minutes because the E won't take you further and you need to change trains.
Exactly. The J/Z wins by so much that even with a transfer to the A train you still lose no time.
(Exactly. The J/Z wins by so much that even with a transfer to the A train you still lose no time.)
I think you all are missing the point. It doesn't matter if the J/Z or the E is faster; the point is both take too long to get to Lower Manhattan. Access to Lower Manhattan, both for Airtrain riders and for LIRR riders, has become a political and economic issue. The J/Z takes 47 minutes from Jamaica to Broad at rush hour. Add to that the wait for the train, and the bus ride/LIRR ride/Airtrain ride to get to Jamaica.
There isn't just a need to draw bus riders off the E. There is a need to draw LIRR riders who might go to Grand Central off the IRT GIVEN THAT THERE MAY BE ESA AND NO SECOND AVENUE SUBWAY, NOT EVEN STUBWAY. And there is a need to provide an attractive trip to Lower Manhattan for Airtrain riders, comparable to the LIRR ride to Grand Central or Penn.
The thing is, I don't think the "super J" using the existing infrastructure does it. It's still too slow, and the transfer is to a line two levels underground.
If they really want to improve access to Lower Manhattan, we'll need that third track straight down Jamaica Avenue. In fact, I'd say we'd need the "Super J" to terminate on the upper level, at the LIRR/Airtrain platforms. You'd have to run the existing service 12 train per hour from the lower level, for TA passengers, and a 12 trains per hour peak direction express on the center track (with perhaps a premium fare to enter/exit at Jamaica). The super express would run Jamaica/Broadway ENY/Marcy and onto Manattan.
In any event, I think the idea is to have SOMETHING in place for Lower Manhattan when the Airtrain opens for business.
In any event, I think the idea is to have SOMETHING in place for Lower Manhattan when the Airtrain opens for business.
Has anybody bothered to look at the projected use between Manhattan and Jamaica for Airtrain before making these plans? It's less than 2000 daily. Look at Airtrain's FEIS.
No one who has every worked on an FEIS takes them seriously.
Within reason, I'd say that cause and effect works both ways in transportation. Put in the rest of the third track, and run super express service, and more people would adjust their employment/residence/business location patterns to take advantage. Meanwhile, with service as it is, I'd be surprised if they get the 2,000.
The question remains why the urgency for the Jamaica Ave Super Express? You implied that it was to meet the anticipated new demand placed by Airtrain. A figure 2000 more passengers per day, a figure you discount, hardly merits an extra service.
The Jamaica Ave Super Express made sense as a quick and inexpensive alternative to the 63rd St tunnel, Queens Connector and Archer Ave Subway. It does not make sense today, after close to $2 billion have been spent on these three items. There is less rush hour service to Jamaica today than there was 50 years ago, so the present infrastructure has room for growth.
"The question remains why the urgency for the Jamaica Ave Super Express? You implied that it was to meet the anticipated new demand placed by Airtrain. A figure 2000 more passengers per day, a figure you discount, hardly merits an extra service. "
Correct. However, LIRR, city bus and LI bus passengers boarding the subway will benefit, and more would be encouraged to use the service. That along with AirTrain is what we are talking about.
"The Jamaica Ave Super Express made sense as a quick and inexpensive alternative to the 63rd St tunnel, Queens Connector and Archer Ave Subway."
False statement. The Jamaica Super Express' relevance has nothing to do with the Archer Av line. The Archer Av line now serves as the J/Z's new final segment. If the J can be made to run faster to Manhattan, then passengers boarding at Archer Av stations will benefit.
"There is less rush hour service to Jamaica today than there was 50 years ago, so the present infrastructure has room for growth. "
Operational conditions of 50 years ago are not relevant to 2003, as many of us have explained to you.
Good points. I think the MTA is on to something with the idea of a super-express. I only wish that they would build a completed third track between 121 Street and Crescent Street. I know I've probably said this before but here's how I'd have the Jamaica Line with an express run (with the completed express track between 121 Street and Crescent).
Z: Operates between Jamaica Center to Broad Street via Nassau/Jamaica Express. Z would run express between Sutphin Blvd and Essex Street (AM hours to Manhattan, PM hours to Queens). The Z would stop at the following stations in this stretch: Jamaica Ctr, Sutphin Blvd, Crescent Street, Broadway Junction, Myrtle Ave, then Essex. Reverse-peak Z would make all stops through this stretch. The Z would then make all stops, in both directions, between Essex and Broad Street. Operates wkdays 6 AM-9 PM.
J: Operates between Jamaica Center and Broad Street via local, making all local stops at all times.
M: Operates between Metropolitan Ave and Chambers Street via Myrtle/Nassau Local. Rush hours (post-2004), M extended to Coney Island via Brighton Local. Late nights shuttle between Metropolitan Ave and Myrtle Ave.
What do you all think? Comments, questions, criticisms are welcomed.
J:
Good plan. I do have a question though. Would Z trains just bypass stops on the regular track between Crescent and Bway Jct.? I understand what you are getting to, and between 121 and Crescent a track J3 is possible. However, would a flyover have to be built between Crescent to the stub structure @ Alabama Avenue, by the East New York Depot? Everything else just seems to require minor modifications, except for construction betwen 117 and 127 Sts, and between 111 St and Etna St (west of the Cypress Hills station after the S-curve) of a J3 track between the existing track. There is already evidence that this may have been removed in the past (empty holes in the girder where that track may have been).
... between 111 St and Etna St (west of the Cypress Hills station after the S-curve) of a J3 track between the existing track. There is already evidence that this may have been removed in the past (empty holes in the girder where that track may have been).
Don't forget, there used to be a center platform station on Crescent St at Jamaica Ave 86 years ago!
Good plan. I do have a question though. Would Z trains just bypass stops on the regular track between Crescent and Bway Jct.? I understand what you are getting to, and between 121 and Crescent a track J3 is possible. However, would a flyover have to be built between Crescent to the stub structure @ Alabama Avenue, by the East New York Depot? Everything else just seems to require minor modifications, except for construction betwen 117 and 127 Sts, and between 111 St and Etna St (west of the Cypress Hills station after the S-curve) of a J3 track between the existing track. There is already evidence that this may have been removed in the past (empty holes in the girder where that track may have been).
What I had in mind was to have the Z skip the four stops between Crescent and B'way Junction like the LIRR. No new construction would be required through this stretch. During AM hours I would time service so that the Z Express would pass the J Local at around Cypress Hills. There would always be a J right behind a Z at Crescent St. That way the Z would be free to skip the next four stops. During PM hours I would time service so that the Z would merge in front of the J at B'way Junction. Again the Z would be free to skip the next four stops. Only if the schedules and timing are all fouled up on the peak direction side would the Z run local between Crescent Street and B'way Junction.
However, LIRR, city bus and LI bus passengers boarding the subway will benefit, and more would be encouraged to use the service
Convenience is a mixed bag versus pre Archer Ave days. The walk from the 165th St bus terminal to the 168th St station of the Jamaica Line was less 0.1 miles. The bus terminal was sheltered; the El station wasn't. The Jamaica Center terminal is 0.4 miles further from the bus terminal. The station is sheltered the bus stop isn't. Many buses do not stop at Jamaica Center but still terminate at the 165th St terminal. All LI buses are in this category. OTOH, walking distance for LIRR passengers is less to both the Jamaica Ave Line and to the IND Queens Blvd Line. However, the point was not to increase the number of people using the Queens Blvd line by taking the IND rather than the LIRR.
The Archer Av line now serves as the J/Z's new final segment.
There was nothing wrong with the old final segment which continued along Jamaica Ave to 168th St.
"Many buses do not stop at Jamaica Center but still terminate at the 165th St terminal. All LI buses are in this category."
A valid point. I would have the TAlook into addingcovered bus bays to Jamaica Station and a covered walkway. How to do that - dunno.
"The station is sheltered the bus stop isn't. "
The bus bays at Jamaica Center are covered - but most of the time you are likely to get wet going to the subway entrance.
"OTOH, walking distance for LIRR passengers is less to both the Jamaica Ave Line and to the IND Queens Blvd Line."
There is no walk to tthe Queens Blvd line. It's around the corner and straight down an escalator. As Jamaica SAtation's redo proceeds, the transfer will be all indoors and climate controlled.
"There was nothing wrong with the old final segment which continued along Jamaica Ave to 168th St."
Which doesn't make your comment about the Super Express any less irrelevant.
"However, the point was not to increase the number of people using the Queens Blvd line by taking the IND rather than the LIRR."
Maybe not, but using either or both got a lot easier when the Archer Av line opened. Never kick a gift horse in the mouth.
The bus bays at Jamaica Center are covered - but most of the time you are likely to get wet going to the subway entrance.
Let's get definitions clear. By sheltered I meant that it has 4 walls and a roof. The 165th St bus terminal does. The Jamaica Center stations does. The bus "shelters" don't. The old 168th St station did not.
There is no walk to tthe Queens Blvd line. It's around the corner and straight down an escalator.
I was referring to the pre-Archer days. It was a 2 block walk from the LIRR to Jamaica Ave and a 5 block walk to Hillside. Yes, the transfer is easier than the pre-Archer days.
As Jamaica SAtation's redo proceeds, the transfer will be all indoors and climate controlled.
Why didn't the MTA's planners build such a transfer back in the 1980's, when they designed the Archer Ave Subway?
Which doesn't make your comment about the Super Express any less irrelevant.
Archer Ave was not necessary for a Jamaica Ave Super Express. My point was that a Jamaica Ave Super Express built in the 1960's, in conjunction with the Chrystie St Connection, would have made the 63rd St Tunnel, the Queens Connector and the Archer Ave Subway unnecessary.
Maybe not, but using either or both got a lot easier when the Archer Av line opened. Never kick a gift horse in the mouth.
Increased rush hour use of the Queens Blvd IND, from a source that has other means of transportation, is not a gift horse; it's an albatross.
The walk from the 165th St bus terminal to the 168th St station of the Jamaica Line was less 0.1 miles. The bus terminal was sheltered; the El station wasn't.
Why do you feel the 168th St station wasn't sheltered? It was a center platform station, roofed over for its entire length. There was always a train in the station, most of the time two trains.
Why do you feel the 168th St station wasn't sheltered?
I used that old station enough times to appreciate its charms. It was extremely cold and windy in winter. The winds would suck out any heat left in the waiting cars despite the fact that most of the doors were closed while the train was waiting.
By sheltered I mean 4 walls and a roof, not a leanto with an unobstructed path to the north wind.
If you thought that 168th St was cold and windy, I'd hate to think what you must have thought about Eastern Parkway.
I thought 168 was a tropical paradise when compared to EP!
Agreed, the one time I was waiting for the J there (2/8/2003) Saturday at 7AM, I felt for the first time ever so cold that I could not stand on the platform another second and ran upstairs to wait until I heard the train. The station is relatively high, but I'm not sure if it is the angle the station is on that makes the wind come in. The fact that the platforms aren't the widest (though not the narrowest) contributed to getting me feeling like I would get blown off the platform. Don't get me wrong, I didn't think it would happen, but the sensation was there.
I got the same feeling myself many times. In the old days, people would huddle in the stairways until their train came. In the really old days EP was the turnback station for the Lexington Ave el late at night, and there would be a two car gate train standing on the center track to break the wind. Frequently a cooperative gateman would let waiting Jamaica train passengers on the warm cars while they waited for their train.
running the express from eastern pkwy to marcy would be a plus, but they should re consider constructing a 3rd track for through express service, even down jamaica av to alabama av. yes it will cost money but it is alot cheaper than a subway. sooner or later some one will have to bite the bullet to provide a better service. better service would draw more ridership.
john
Building an express track over the already-existing infrastructure between Crescent St. and 121st would be the cheapest option -- way cheaper than an actual new express track continuing down Jamiaca
Ave. to B'way Junction (with it's inevitable NIMBY battles). However, other than rehabing the connection at B'way Junction, skip-stop service from Parsons-Archer to East New York, combined with running the V to Canarsie would at least be a way to speed up J/Z service at a near-$0 cost to the MTA.
And as I said, when the new R-160s with their digital route signs come in a few years from now and the CTBC testing on the L is complted, just the ability to use the word "express" on the route sign for the J and Z trains will at least give the line a shot at getting passengers boarding at Jamaica or East New York who normally take the E or A trains to use it instead, which would relieve crowding on those two lines while having the added bonus of giving Canarsie riders the option of a single seat ride to midtown on the V.
I think the idea of extending the v down to canarsie is a very interesting idea. Could you just imagine leaving Atlantic ave station and running above the jamaica line on the fly over. as far as i remember i do not think that connection was used in revenue service since the lexington line was discontinued.
john
The 1967 TA subway map that was done following the opening of the Chrystie St. connection has the gone-but-not-forgotten JJ local, which ran from Broad Street to Rockaway Parkway using the Broadway Junction flyover. Like the NX, its time was short-lived, and so the connection has been out of revenue service for the past 35 years.
The problem seems to be, at least for the TA in 1967, that they were still locked in some sort of 1930s communitng pattern mindset when it came to the Eastern Division, and misued the Chrystie St. link and the Broadway Junction flyover. More Canarsie riders were headed north of 14th St. than south of there, so the JJ was attractive to only a very limited number of people (who would probably perfer the 2 or the A train to get downtown anyway), while the ensuing decision in 1968 to send the KK train to 168th St. instead of Rockaway Parkway also made little sense. While today's J/Z trains are faster from Jamaica to lower Manhattan than the E train, the KK was slower than either the E or the F from there to Midtown, and therefore failed to ever gain traction with riders (its part-time nature also didn't help).
Riders looked at the JJ on the 1967 map going north before going south or the KK on the 1968 map going south before going back north and said to themselves "too roundabout" and failed to use the service. If they had run the KK, or if they run the V in the future, from Canarsie up Sixth Ave., it certainly wouldn't be a straight line route like the old Eighth Ave. AA train was, but it would proceed in a generally similar direction from Canarsie to Midtown.
That may not be a fully rational reason for passengers to pick one line over another, but passengers in Jamaica headed downtown also stuff themselves into the E train over the less crowded and slightly faster J/Z trains, because passing by local stops on Queens Blvd. makes them feel like they're getting there faster. Having J/Z trains pass by stations on Bway-Brooklyn would give passengers there the same feeling (and really would make the trip on that route even faster than it is now on the E), while a V train to Canarsie wouldn't seem like it's going the wrong way to L train riders, who already have to cope with the zig-zag nature of the line as it winds its way around Newtown Creek headed for the 14th St. tunnel.
This is going to sound crazy, but how about terminating the L at Broadway Junction and running all Canarsie trains via Broadway? After Atlantic, all Manhattan-bound trains would stop at the lower (J) level at BJ; the upper level would function as a terminal for the L.
Hmmm. Interesting. I was going to recomend having the V terminate at Broadway Junction, but didn't mention it because I couldn't figure out a way to do it without interfering with the J/Z passing through. Your idea is very interesting; I hadn't thought of that one. Actually, it would not affect L riders west of BJ, and it's probably safe to say that many Canarsie riders either get off at BJ anyway, or if on their way to Manhattan, probably would transfer there anyway, this would give them possible a one seat ride, if midtown bound. And as for some of the Canarsie riders bound for lower Manhattan, that would have transfered at Myrtle-Wyckoff for the M via Nassau, well they can do that anywhere along the Broadway El.
The only problem I could see with that would be capacity on the Williamsburgh -- could the MTA run enough V trains to/from Rockaway Parkway, M trains to/from Metropolitan and J/Z trains to/from Parsons-Archer during rush hours and not exceed the maximum possible TPH for the tracks between Marcy and Essex. If CTBC in the future was extended to the Broadway el and IND and worked well enough (and the bridge is sound enough) to get the TPH up into the 24-30 range going over the Willie B, then it would be a viable option.
The bridge capacity concern is why I suggested continuing to turn every third V train at Second Ave., and every third L train at Myrtle -- the total number of J, M, V and Z trains over the bridge wouldn't be more than what was running 30 years ago with the KK, M and QJ trains, while Rockaway Parkway could handle a small incrase in the number of rush hour trains above its current levels.
(This is going to sound crazy, but how about terminating the L at Broadway Junction and running all Canarsie trains via Broadway?)
What's the benefit?
1. 14th St is closer to midtown (the end destination of at least 75% of rush hour customers) than Delancey/Centre/Nassau St.
2. The Canarsie Line has plenty of capacity to handle more customers if traffic increases, so there's no need to offload any.
David was talking about running all trains from Canarsie via Broadway-Bklyn using the V, which would then go up Sixth Ave. to midtown. The M, J and Z trains would continue on their current routes.
"(This is going to sound crazy, but how about terminating the L at Broadway Junction and running all Canarsie trains via Broadway?)
What's the benefit?
1. 14th St is closer to midtown (the end destination of at least 75% of rush hour customers) than Delancey/Centre/Nassau St."
Yes - which is exactly why this is such a *good* idea. The other half of the idea was that trains from Canarsie would run along the Broadway-Brooklyn line, over the Williamburg Bridge, over the Chrystie St connector, and get linked through on to the V. So those 75% of Canarsie passengers get a one-seat ride to midtown instead of having to transfer at 14th Street. The 25% of downtown passengers get a same-platform connection onto the J. Only real losers - those from the 14th St-Eastern line stations who actually want to go to Canarsie (or vice versa), who have to negotiate some stairs at Broadway Jcn-ENY, instead of having a one-seat ride.
I see two benefits.
First, from what I've read here, it seems like the L north of Broadway Junction could use more service. This would allow service to be added only where it's needed. Broadway Junction probably has a greater terminal capacity than Rockaway Parkway, since it doesn't end at bumper blocks.
Second, if the new Canarsie service is sent uptown via either 6th (V) or 8th (C), its passengers (along with Broadway-Brooklyn passengers) would have direct service to midtown. At the same time, the J/Z could run express all the way from Broadway Junction, saving a bit of time for passengers from further out and perhaps drawing some passengers off the E from Jamaica.
I like it, you got me sold. It's an idea I never even though of (operationally severing the Canarsie line from the 14th Street line. I think though it would solve a lot of problems/inconveniences the Eastern Division lines have by only going to lower Manhattan, and not to midtown, and it would speed up the Jamaica line a bit by avoiding Kosciusko to Chauncey.
Well, you COULD do it now if you swapped some R32's from the "E" for some R46s from the "V", making 8-car "V" trains of R32s. In fact, why not make the "V" 100% 8-car R32? It doesn't get any more crowded than your average "C" train does, does it?
wayne
It could be done now -- technically, if you continued to turn every third V train at Second Ave., you could run those using R-46s. That would lower the need for R-32s on that line, but would limit flexibility in case of diversions. But if the MTA does order enough R-160s to not only replace the R-38/40/42s but also the R-44s, that would give them more 60-foot cars to work with by the end of the decade (and until the signal testing is done on the Canarsie line, they won't even think about adding a second route south of Broadway Junction, even if Peter Kalikow thought it was the greatest idea since Swiss cheese).
This hypothetical scenario makes me wonder the following: Is there an acceleration difference between the R-32 and R-46 that is appreciable enough to show up over the course of a local route?
I think the R32 picks up quicker than the R46, but on the flats they're just about even.
wayne
I have no idea what this simulated test run is supposed to prove. If NYCT wants to run this service, it very well may be psychological warfare with the public making them think that they are saving time. The J line has a lot of reverse commuting: passengers riding the E and taking the J to/from points as far as Norwood Ave. Many of these passengers would be better off taking the A from Manhattan to B'way Jct. and getting the J there. They could save time that way but it is a very difficult thing to change riding habits of passengers. They have one way how to get there and they don't want to change it. Should NYCT for whatever reason wish to place this idea into actual service, I think it will be another "NX" fiasco.
I used to get the J at 121st back in 1987-88. It always irked me that the tracks between Eastern Parkway and Myrtle Ave were not used for express service. The skip stop service was a help, but it still took a long time for me to reach Chambers. If the skip stop service is still in effect, they should continue that to Eastern Parkway westbound, then have the J run express, making Myrtle and Marcy only, while the Z runs local, then let that train skip Flushing, Lorimer and Hewes while the M makes the local stops.
However, I like the super express idea. Its about time. Let's see if it will work. In a way it remind me of the 5:41 super express to Ronkonkoma that I loved to ride. First stop: Hicksville!
If the skip stop service is still in effect, they should continue that to Eastern Parkway westbound, then have the J run express, making Myrtle and Marcy only, while the Z runs local, then let that train skip Flushing, Lorimer and Hewes while the M makes the local stops.
IIRC, 121st Street is a "Z" only station. I'm sure if it was still 1988, and you were still using that station, you wouldn't be to thrilled with the Z going local after Broadway Junction while the J speeded ahead. This would give the J stations an unfair advantage over the Z only stations. What makes skip stop work is the fact that there is NO advantage to being at a J only or a Z only station. Both trains are equally balanced. Run the J express there, and all of a sudden all the time the Z people gained by skipping stations with the J east of BJ, is lost. WHile now All the stations and passangers benefit from some skipped stations with skip stop, making the J express and the Z local in that spot will make only the J stations save time, while the Z only stations are now worse off. The only way thay express track can be used while skip stop is also used would be to send a third train though there to act as the local (as discussed in a different area of this thread), while letting BOTH the J and the Z run express.
They did a test like this on the 1 a few years ago. don't know what came of it.
Wonder why it would skip Myrtle.
I agree with others that any additional new service like this should be sent up onto the IND.
Wonder why it would skip Myrtle.
Myrtle is not a particularily important station, at least not when both the M and J are running. The M goes to the same place the J goes, so M riders wouldn't "need" to transfer to the express, and for the rare few Jamaica riders bound for the M line north of Myrtle, well, they'll just have to wait for the local.
I just heard someone from control center making a memo announcement for all employees at the end of their tour must report to Hoyt-Schermerhorn to get the masks/filter devices to protect against terrorist attacks. Those who do not pick them up will not be able to sign on during their next tour tomorrow or whenever they work next. Guess they mean business...
What do you guys think of this layout? (you need Bahn 3.75 or higher to run it)
http://www.bwayjcteny.com/Downloads/yourmap1WD.zip
No wonder Sea Beach riders bitch. This darn train gets held at EVERY major stop. I got on an N at Union Sq. at 2:05 PM today. Everything was fine until we got to Dekalb. Then the fun began:
Dekalb: Held 2 minutes to await a meeting with a southbound Q
Pacific St. Held 4 minutes to await a meeting with a southbound R
36th St. Held 2 minutes to await meeting of an M train on the local track
59th St. Held for 4 minutes to await a meeting of a southbound R (the same train we waited for at Pacific St!)
Kings Highway: Held 5 minutes for crew change (those new crews should be there to meet the train immediatley!)
Arrived at 86th St @ 2:57 PM. Travel time: 52 minutes.
What a joke. Why bother running the N down the express tracks on 4th Ave anyway? It took nearly 20 minutes from the time we arrived at Pacific to the time we left 59th St.
BTW, there IS a set of R32's still on the N. I noticed it going northbound at 20th Ave around 2:45 PM.
N = Never
R = Rarely
W = Wenever
[N = Never; R = Rarely; W = Whenever]
You forgot one... Q = Questionable
What about M= Maybe
Are those hold lengths accurate? It seems to me that somewhere in the rule book (or a policy/instruction?) is something about not holding a train more than two minutes (except in the event of a service disruption, of course).
According to the official timetable, there is no N train scheduled to leave Union Square at 2:05 PM. There IS one scheduled to leave 34th Street at 2:05-1/2 PM. It's scheduled to be held at 59th Street for 30 seconds and at Kings Highway for 3 minutes (presumably for the crew change). Scheduled arrival time at 86th Street is 3:03-1/2 PM. Therefore, a passenger boarding an N at 14th Street at 2:05 PM and getting off at 86th Street at 2:57 PM (as described in the post I'm responding to) did OK.
David
I'd swear on a bible that those holding times are accurate. Perhaps my 2:05 train at Union Sq. was a little early, but that doesn't excuse the myriad of holds.
The rule book says trains won't be held for connections during rush. But that is for the C/R, the tower does what the tower does.
Funny, I always thought the rules for holding for connections were:
(a) If Howard Fein wants to make a cross-platform connection, the train (Train B) he wishes to connect to WILL NOT HOLD. It may keep its doors open during the time it takes the train Howard Fein is connecting FROM (Train A) to completely enter the station and open its doors. But Train B will close its doors and depart the station at the same time Train A opens its, making any connection impossible. Should Howard Fein attempt to re-board Train A, it will close ITS doors and depart the station before this can be done, hence stranding Howard Fein on the platform.
(b) If Howard Fein is on Train A stopping at a station at which Howard Fein does not wish to make a cross-platform connection, Train A WILL STAY IN THE STATION with its doors open for up to fifteen minutes until Train B arrives across the platform, and will remain so while passengers transfer from Train B to Train A, which is usually overcrowded to begin with.
(c) These rules are to be enforced consistently without regard to whether it is rush hour, the middle of the night or any other time. Special attention to compliance to said rules must be paid when the station at which the cross-platform connection is to be made by Howard Fein is one in which the two lines connect ONLY at that station. Examples are Queensborough Plaza, Jay Street, Hoyt/Schermerhorn, Myrtle Avenue on weekends and East 180th Street during night hours. Of course, compliance is also enforced on any line with numerous stops at which cross-platform transfers between local and express trains are commonly attempted.
At least it SEEMS that way sometimes-
ROTFLMAO!!!
...DITTO...ROTFLMAO
Brilliant, Thanks
Peace,
ANDEE
...DITTO...ROTFLMAO
Brilliant, Thanks
Peace,
ANDEE
Ditto Ditto Ditto
Good One, btw I'm moving into your old work location in 3 weeks or less and the elevators still don't work.
Howard, you may be entertained to know that BART as of several months back EXPLICITLY broke the scheduled connections between East bay Richmond Fremont trains with trains to/from San Francisco--analagous to riding a G to a transfer point w/a train to Manhattan but then waiting a full headway for it. Previously the two had pulled in in tandem allowing the bulk of riders to transfer to the SF bound train.
What could possibly be the motivation for changing that? I have experienced that connection many times, and it has always impressed me as a "customer-friendly" feature of BART.
In Bangkok, Thailand, the two branches of SkyTrain (Silom and Sukhumvit) always arrive simultaneouly at Central Station, the transfer point between the two lines.
Todd, the connection dated from 1992, when after twenty tears of hit miss connections, someone tried to be user friendly, and succeeded. Now the excuse is that in order to tweak the schedules to extend service to Millbrae (and SFO)m it was "necessary" to degrade service on the Richmond-Berkeley segment. Does anyone believe that in the BAY Area BART could not find a computer programmer who could optimize schedules for both issues? Naturally, the implementation of the service downgrade happened on time, meanwhile the opening of the SFO line is ANOTHER six months or more delayed. So much for mission statements and customer focus.
You just described Murphy's Law!!!
Howard, we must have identical travel schedules.
But you missed one example of holding, often experienced at Columbus Circle. I'm waiting for a SB A. First a D pulls in on the express track, and it's held, and held, and held some more for a connection with the local. I can see the headlights of an A behind it in the tunnel, but the D is in the way. Eventually a B pulls in on the local track. Then the guys in the tower spend five minutes searching for a coin to flip to decide which train to send out first. (The B, probably, since I'm waiting for an A. If I were waiting for a C, the D would pull out first.)
Then there's the additional delay of people running and holding the doors trying to make sure they're on the "next train" out.
The MTA should make its policy clear regarding connections. Right now, it's, "We'll hold for the connection if it pleases us to do so; what the commuters want doesn't matter."
There should be signs clarifying the situation posted in the station...it could read something like, "Trains are not obligated to hold for connections; they do so under the discretion of the dispatcher." ...
www.forgotten-ny.com
agree wholeheartedly that policy should be clear and be posted. IMHO evenings and nights connections should be mandated--conversely in rush, close 'em up and go!
All of the "holds" for this N train were tower holds (there were holding lights on).
A tower must hold a train for schedule, or for connections prvided that:
1. Trains are not to be held for connections during rush hours (I think CTL and 38MT needs to be reminded of this every day).
2. During non rush hours a train may not be held such that it is more than 2 minutes late on headways less than 10 minutes, or 3 minutes late during headways of 10 minutes or more.
Sorry forgot to mention its policy/instruction.
If you guys in New York look west and see smoke bellowing up in the distance you can be almost certain that it is coming from the fire coming out of my mouth, ears and nostrils. I am really getting pissed off reading about this post.
So don't read it! Dont forget, you have the best cars going in the system, the Slants. If you have Slants, you are blessed.
Viva El "N"!
wayne
If you have Slants, you are blessed.
Is that in the cab?
Now, class. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
It seems the slants have overwhelmed the N. R68's and R32's a rare sight.
Now if only the N could run express in Manhattan with those slants.
Wow, this rule was broken twice on one trip!
I can understand the intellectual reasons for some of the "holds", but it is ludicrous to hold for the same "R" local twice. Either the Pacific Street or the 59th St. hold should never have happened.
Those holds come from two different towers - Pacific from DeKalb and 59 from Murphy (well, 59 Relay Room right now). They don't know what the other guy did.
Now that we are in the 21st Century, I am hopeful that the technology will be upgraded at some point so that the two towers are not operating indpeendently of each other.
That's poor communication. There's no excuse for an N train, running 2-3 minutes ahead of the next R train and running express in Brooklyn leaving 59th St. at the same time that next R does.
That would piss Fred off so much more. Another reason why it's called the Slum-Beach Line. Think it's bad, try the #4 train running hot on a cold day
Maybe Fred would feel better if he knew the New York version of Monopoly includes both the 4 and N trains among its railroads.
Any other fairly unknown and short lived IND routes besides the ones on this list:
C: 205th St to Hoyt St via Concourse and 8th Ave express (1933 - 1940)
EE: Continental Ave to Hudson Terminal via 8th Ave and Queens Blvd local (1936-1940)
BB: 168th St Washington Heights to 34th St/Herald Sq, via CPW and 6th Ave (1940 to 1967)
AA: 168th St to Hudson Terminal/WTC (1932-1933, 1940-1985...not exactly a short lived route)
This is a question for the super geeks or the old timers among us...LOL
It's interesting how some of these route designations have been resurrected over the years for similar routes:
EE: Used Again from 1967 to 1976, following almost the same route, but via the Broadway BMT in Manhattan. Interestingly the old roll signs were still there on the R1/9s that provided this service initially.
B: Today is from 145th to 34th, via the same route as the old B (minus three stops above 145th).
C: Today is really the same as the old AA extended to Futlon St. Brooklyn as well.
I consider the K designation for the Eighth Ave. local to be the more "short-lived" route than the AA, as far as pure IND trackage-only lines go, even though the route was post-Chrystie and the letter itself is more associated with BMT routes.
You can also include the HH shuttle out in the Rockaways under the "short-lived" routes.
Actually, the HH was just from Hoyt-Schemerhorn to Court in the salad days of the IND. 1946 was the end of that line and route.
The R1-9s used on the EE service in the late 60s-70s had a new route on their roll signs, EE - via Broadway.
Also the HH Court St. Shuttle (1936-46).
-- Ed Sachs
During the 1939-40 World's Fair there was an IND train that ran from Hudson Terminal to the World's Fair via Continental Ave and the Jamaica Yard, then up what's now the route of the Van Wyck Expressway to a terminal near what's now the Long Island Expressway. More info here: http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/worldsfair
That would be the EE route. It supplemented the GG, IIRC.
During the 1939-40 World's Fair there was an IND train that ran from Hudson Terminal to the World's Fair via Continental Ave and the Jamaica Yard, then up what's now the route of the Van Wyck Expressway to a terminal near what's now the Long Island Expressway. More info here: http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/worldsfair
The World's Fair Route was not a separate service. It was simply an extension of the existing GG Line. Ditto the weekend evening extension of E express service to the Fiar from about 8pm-1am. The EE was gone by this time.
Larry, RedbirdR33
But it was officially a [single] "G", but was signed as [also single] "S"
Although this route never appeared on maps, there was a very short-lived DD marking used during the aftermath of a water main break at 6th Ave. and 23rd St. (IIRC) in late 1962. The C was also resurrected during this time period.
What route did this DD train take?
Cool posting. Where did you find this? I have the actual notice when the Fisk Interlocking project was in effect. Unfortunatley, I do not have a scanner so I could share with you guys here.
Wow. A lot more affective than the annoucements made today, if they are even made. A lot of info, and I bet that was in effect for a relatively short time. The TA head honchos now would rather drop dead than do something of the like during a service disruption.
Who wrote that "we work around the clock on a 24-hour basis" ?
Yogi Berra!
avid
This service plan looks similiar to the one used in 1989 when there was a water main break at 42nd/8th. During that time the A & C ran only to 34th St. The B was sent to 57th St. and the Q replaced the A to 207th St.
Speaking of water main breaks, does anyone remember Niagara Falls at Grand Central:
New York Post Photo
Yup. Early 90's?
Yup, amazingly only about a month or two after the Union Square derailment in 1991. 1991 was not a good year for the Lexington Line. I was a regular user of Lexington at the time, and amazingly both "messes" seemed to be cleaned up in almost a matter of days. They did it fast. Grand Central on the 4/5/6 had water even with the platform edge. I have never seen photos of the 7's platform from then, but it had to be worse than Lexington's platforms. I don't remember how long the 7 was out. Luckily, it happened on a Friday, so they had the whole weekend to work on it.
The September 1989 break at 42nd/8th disrupted service for nearly 3 weeks because there was an extensive and lenghty asbestos cleanup. It did have one benefit: It allowed the R38's to see service on the Brighton for the first and only time in my memory as the extended "Q" route absorbed some of 207th St's fleet.
That must've been one brave photographer.
Was there ever a "true" 6th avenue route (other than the JFK express), that ran straight through West Fourth Street and down 6th Avenue?
Yes. For a time in the 40's and 50's the D train ran to Hudson Terminal, making every stop. The F served the IND in Brooklyn. I think this ended after the Culver connection opened.
What about through 8th Avenue-Houston Street service?
What about through 8th Avenue-Houston Street service?
David: That was provided for by E trains between Jamica and Church Avenue before the Sixth Avenue Line openned. Effective December 15, 1940 the Sixth Avenue Subway opened and F trains took over the Church Avenue service. The Eighth Avenue-Houston Street service was cut back to E trains terminating at Broadway-Lafayette Street.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
The E ran to Church Ave from 1933 to 1940.
The E ran to Church Ave from 1933 to 1940.
Actually I've seen a map from the early days of the IND around 1934, that shows the Church Street Route running from the 8th Avenue line. It's interesting because it's the opposite configuration at Jay Street-Borough Hall than it is today.
It shows:
......Broadway-Nassau
High Street
Jay-St Borough Hall
Bergen Street
Carroll St.....
Interestingly, it shows all the stations between High Street and Church as local stations, so the express route wasn't used then either.
I believe the section from Jay St. to Church Ave opened earlier than the Houston St/Rutger St. line. During this time the E ran to Church, but ran thru Cranberry St.
Too add: I think the section from Jay to Church opened before the Fulton St. subway. In that case, I think it was the A which ran to Church Ave.
Thanks, I was trying to figure that out from the map because the letters are not on the map. Actually a closer look to the bottom of the map says:
Signal A Washington Heights-Brooklyn-8th Ave Express
Signal C Bronx Councourse-8th Ave-Borough Hall Brooklyn Express
Signal CC Bronx Concourse-8th Ave Local
Signal E Queens-8th Ave-All Local Stops
Signal GG Queens-Brooklyn Crosstown Line
And yes, the Fulton Street subway is not there yet. The whole 8th Avenue and Concourse lines were there which ran to Church in the way mentioned in the above post. The 53rd street tunnel is there and ends at Roosevelt, and the Crosstown ends at Nassau St. That's all what was in service at the time of this map.....Interesting.
At the time the IND was a "Work In Progress"
Yup, that's what's so cool about the map!
Was these ever used as a regular service
DD, FF, G, and H ?
G is currently, and H was the Euclid - Rockaway train for a few years before it became an S.
I think there may have been a 1939-40 "G" route to the Worlds Fair. I remember hearing something about it once, but don't know much. It may have run the GG route and skipped some stops.
Actually, Unca Dave settled this question on the page for the IND World's fair, right up on the top of the page ... I was surprised as well, but there it is, right on the bulkhead ...
Check out the World's Fair destination sign. Even 1689 doesn't have that. Or does it?
Don't think it did. Maybe they were all lifted for the 7 train years later. :)
Well, the font looks the same.
The only time I ever saw a World's Fair sign was once on a 7 train after a Mets game in 1970 or 1971. It was an upper side destination sign on the car we were riding in.
Rollsigns come and go. I only wished that the TA had a sense of humor and had HELL as a bulkhead destination sign. Would have kept the noise in the lead car down a bit during the run. :)
Or perhaps Moo.:)
People still would have run to grab the doors :-)
That was another thing about the arnines ... they actually had cutouts in the doors that you could grab. Thank heavens for homeballs though. WHACK! Wile E Coyote style. :)
You don't know just how tempting those cutouts were. I can still see that AA train pulling into 42nd St in May of 1967, cutouts in plain view. I wanted to grab hold of them and pull, but thought better of it.
Wouldn't have done much, and certainly not enough to hold onto to subway surf. They were mighty handy though to get that door that last inch you needed to make the indication fairy smile. :)
Those cutouts on the doors used to drive me crazy. See, in those days I didn't know there were different cars from R1-R9. I thought all the old IND cars were the same. And the lower cars (R-1 etc) didn't have the cutouts. So when a train came without the cutouts I'd think "didn't these doors have small niches?" Then later I'd see a train with the cutouts. The same thing with the single railfan window and the double railfan window. And I'm not sure about this but I think some cars had the wire mesh in the railfan window and some didn't.
The R-1s and R-4s had storm doors with one large window pane. The R-6s, R-7s, and R-9s had split windows on their storm doors.
AFAIK all of the R-1/9s originally had chicken wire embedded in the storm door window glass. So did the R-10s. Replacement window panes did not. The side door windows on the BMT standards had chicken wire, too.
I can't recall if the window kicked out by Sylvester Stallone in Nighthawks had chicken wire or not.
A four car E train? I always thought that picture was of a test train.
Nope, that's all it needed. Now, being born in 1951, I'm certainly NOT going to argue with those who said it was a G, whatever ... all I can offer is the photo, WITHOUT "editorial comment" ... thar she blows. :)
think there may have been a 1939-40 "G" route to the Worlds Fair. I remember hearing something about it once, but don't know much. It may have run the GG route and skipped some stops
Bzuck: There never was a G service. The GG provided service to the 1939-40 World's Fair 24/7 with weekend evening express service by the E.
During the 1964 World's Fair there was a short-lived non-stop service from Hout Street via the Crosstown Line to Roosevelt Avenue. This only lasted from April 22-May 7,1964. These trains carried "S" "SPECIAL" signs. In his history of the Independent Subway Services Bernie Linder relates that" These trains might have carried "G" signs if the roll signs had the reading." Unfortunately this reference to a "G" was carried over into a listing of letter services which appeared in the August 1986 edition of the New York Bulletin of the ERA. The author lists the short-lived 1964 serice as a "G" but then amends it in the footnotes to indicate that trains actually carried "S" signs. Such is the stuff that rapid transit fables are born of. A similar mistatement occured in an otherwise excellent history of the BMT by Joseph Cunningham which stated that the BMT 14 Street-Fulton serice was #17.This was not correct. There never was a #17 and the 14 Street-Fulton trains carried #13 signs which followed the BMT practice of numbering routes by their outer terminals.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Yes, but I was speaking of the pre-1967 era.
The FF train would run in only one direction.
To go back, you would take the REW train.
Why you.....@$%&*+~#!!!
Actually, the "FF" was ON the R-1/4/6/7 rolls, just was never used.
wayne
So...
A, AA, B, BB, C, CC, D, DD, E, EE, F - existed and used
FF - existed not used
G - didn't exist but used anyway
GG - existed and used
H - neither existed nor used
HH, S, SS - existed and used
I, II, J, JJ etc... in your dreams...
H - neither existed nor used
The H was used in the late 80's as the Rockaway Park (Euclid to RP) shuttle, and also the Round Robin train at that time.
J, K, L, M, N, Q, R, S, T, V, W and Z was used
I, O, P, U, X and Y. were never used.
I think at least X, Y, Q and V will be used when the SAS is open.
Cute, very cute....LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
Rim shot!
Wasn't DD used when the water main broke during 6th Av Express construction?
Yes, for about two weeks in December of 1962.
: 205th St to Hoyt St via Concourse and 8th Ave express (1933 - 1940)
EE: Continental Ave to Hudson Terminal via 8th Ave and Queens Blvd local (1936-1940)
BB: 168th St Washington Heights to 34th St/Herald Sq, via CPW and 6th Ave (1940 to 1967)
AA: 168th St to Hudson Terminal/WTC (1932-1933, 1940-1985...not exactly a short lived route)
This is a question for the super geeks or the old timers among us...LOL
Chris: I don't know if I qualify as a super-geek or an old-timer. I think that I'm somewhere in between. But bear this in mind. In about twenty or so years when many of the old-timers on this board have gone on to that "Great Coney Island Yard in the Sky" or the "Branford Trolley Museum" you will be one of the old-timers on this board. Just kidding.
Just to clarify the dates a little bit.
The AA Washington Hts-8 Av Lcl ran from 9/10/32 to 6/30/33 and from 12/15/40 to 5/6/86 went in officially became the K.
The BB Washington Hts-6 Av Lcl ran from 12/15/40 to 11/24/67.
The C Concourse-8 Av Exp ran from 7/1/33 to 10/24/49 and made a brief return from 12/7/62 to 12/24/62 due to a 6 Avenue watermain break. NOTE THAT THE 1962 VERSION ACTUALLY TERMINATED AT 34 ST-SIXTH AV.
The DD Concourse-6 Av Lcl ran from 12/7/62 to 12/24/62 due to a 6 Avenue watermain break. NOTE HOWEVER THAT THE SERVICE ACTUALLY RAN VIA 8 AVENUE BETWEEN 59 ST AND WEST 4 STREET. (Apologies for caps)
The EE Queens-8 Avenue Lcl had a very short existence from 4/24/37 to 7/1/37. This displaces the NX as the regular route with the shortest service history.
The FF as you know never ran.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
The FF as you know never ran.
Or they called it the V train...
Then of course, there was the shuttle between Hoyt/Scherm and Court/Scherm. It was served by the HH from 1936 to '46, a full ten years before IND service to the Rockaways revived that designation for the off-hour shuttles.
The line was supposed to extend west past Court/Schermerhorn under a river tube that was supposed to connect to (variously, depending on what you read or who you talk to) the BMT at Whitehall or the stub at Chambers where the E terminates. Like many Second System projects, WWII kept it from being reality. So when it became apparent that the stub to Court Street would remain a stub, service was discontinued.
And 30 years later, the Transit Museum was born.
The line was supposed to extend west past Court/Schermerhorn under a river tube that was supposed to connect to (variously, depending on what you read or who you talk to) the BMT at Whitehall or the stub at Chambers where the E terminates.
Is this actually documented anywhere?
A permanent stub fits in line perfectly with the IND's policy of not allowing outer borough locals to cross the East River. If service followed the tracks, local passengers would have had to transfer at Hoyt, Bergen, or Queens Plaza to continue into Manhattan.
Once in a while I set my R4 roll sign to an imaginary HH from Euclid to Court. Court is there as a top destination, but Schermerhon is not. I wonder when the shuttle ran, what the signs looked like.
That looks to me like the original plan.
Maybe the run should be from 76th Street to Court.
I though we got away from any 76th st threads for awhile. Guess 76th Street is back from the dead in Subtalk.
Free transfer to the Twilight Zone - where all MetroCards and City Tickets are accepted, but you never know where the train will let you off.
DOO-A-DOO DOO-A-DOO- DEED-A-DEE, DEED-A-DEE, BAM BOM BOM BOMMMM
Free transfer to the Twilight Zone - where all MetroCards and City Tickets are accepted, but you never know where the train will let you off.
heh, or in what decade....don't forget that diehard railfan that was stuck in the same spot in both the 1940's and 1970's 76th street station photos.
OK OK
I only mentioned 76th st as a joke.
Sorry I opened it up again.
The part of the run from Court to Euclid is true though.
I only mentioned 76th st as a joke.
Sorry I opened it up again.
Why are you sorry, we were joking! 76th street is always good for a good laugh!
"but you never know where the train will let you off."
Should have that as IF the train will let you off.
IT'S ALIVE!
IIRC, on R1-9 roll signs, the lower destination which were removed
from the curtain included: Jay Street, Borough Hall; Hoyt Street,
Brooklyn; Fulton~Rockaway Avenue & Fulton~Bway East New York.
8-) Sparky
Ah!
So at the time the shuttle was running they had proper signs.
I wonder why they did not remove the upper destination Court St?
^^^"So at the time the shuttle was running they had proper signs."^^^
Well, Hoyt Street destination was used by the C-8th Avenue Concourse Express as its Southern terminal also.
^^^"I wonder why they did not remove the upper destination Court St?"^^^
Still could be used as a Northern terminal if the need arose. IMO.
Other destinations on Northen curtains that come to mind are the
169th St ~ Jamaica changed over to 179th St ~ Jamiaca. Two obscure
destinations, hard to find: Parsons Blvd ~ Jamaica or Union Turnpike ~
Kew Gardens.
Those I remember from turning handles as a young lad.
8-) Sparky
I saw a destination curtain complete with mechanism at Cityana gallery some 25 years ago that included a Queens - Kew Gardens sign. Shoulda grabbed it.:(
There are some rare earlier destination curtains for arnines.
The one that surprised me on 1689 was "Broad Channel" and IIRC
it doesn't have "Wavecrest". That last one was on all the
Thunderbirds in service when they went to the ocean. >GG<
"Wavecrest" is also another short lived IND destination.
8-)Sparky
Word ... those curtains didn't LAST very long in reality ... some DID as long as they were drilled into the middle and LEFT there for many years. I had a number of them rip on the railroad in Arnines, and about the best I could offer more often that not was three bulbs through a smoky glass window ... and they'd GET replaced. I can imagine that the expense of roll replacements (and what it TOOK to get into the bulkheads) resulted in the "we'll take flipdots even if no one can SEE them" metality ...
Infant mortality rates could get severe - after all, all it really took in ROAD service was for a "crankback" to get skewed, put the cloth in contact with the bulbs, and voila. On the rails, I had TWO rollsigns go up in flames in the bulkhead that I actually had to grab the fire extinguishers (useless) and make them schvitz on the floor and not TOUCH the flames ... in BOTH situations, I had to put out the fire with my damned COAT. :(
I think it's safe to say that some of the R-10 curtains probably had frozen crank handles after having been set to A for so long.
Is there anything holding those mechanisms in place in the bulkheads? It seems that one of 1689's front destination curtains is firmly in place while the other is loose and flopping around.
They were designed to hang on a bulkhead, the one that was loose had apparently been lifted and just fell off its mounts I would expect. I didn't want to mess with it though for fear of getting the fabric getting caught on the hooks and possibly damaging it or I would have done the lift, spot and drop for it. Museum pieces are far to precious to mess with unless you're absolutely sure of what you're doing and can see it. I opted to just leave it alone.
That was the one with the stiff crank handle, too. Every other sign on that car cranked very easily.
That may have had something to do with why it leaped off the bulkhead. I remember them having a tendency to do that, you'd write them up on the defect sheet and hope someone read it at least. :)
Gotta squirt some penetrating oil on the crank handle and gears.
I'm sure there's an approved practicum. Actually, I'm surprised that the transfer gear wasn't just REMOVED so it wouldn't turn at all (in the interest of preservation) ... so I certainly didn't mind that it was "fussy" ... but then you know me now, roll signs ain't all that big a thing to me ... had other things to play with. :)
^^^"I'm surprised that the transfer gear wasn't just REMOVED so it wouldn't turn at all (in the interest of preservation) ..."^^^
Then the disbuting would commence as to what it should be singed as.
For the limited times its accesible to the foamers, we'll let them
have their jollies and crank the sign. We are a living museum, with
live exbits, not stuffed & mounted. >GG<
8-) Sparky
That's exactly what they did to the signs on the cars at the Transit Museum - removed the transfer gears. You can turn the crank handle all you want and nothing happens.
Yeah, see your point and am quite IMPRESSED by it - tells me you guys have some spares squirreled away or a master seamstress on call. :)
Besides, we know the drill should a lockout ever be necessary - GG to FOREST HILLS on one end, A on the other. No biggie. If she's charged and ready to go, I'll take ANY board job. Heh.
A to Wash. Hts - 207th St., that is.:)
It's still strange to see an R-1/9 signed as an A. Didn't see too many of them.
I can't believe all 400 R10's were exclusively on the A line before 1967.
Well, 30 of them did run on the Eastern Division for a few years in the mid-50s. Karl B remembers seeing them there.
Other than that, the entire Thundering Herd was the exclusive domain of the A for years. After Chrystie St. a trainset or two could be found on the B, CC, and HH, but until 1977, the R-10s were still the mainstay on the A.
^^^"GG to FOREST HILLS on one end, A on the other."^^^
Naw, won't have the GG on her, I don't have that type of influence at BERA. Besides, one of 1689s mentors, whom replaced a/o repaired the lower destination sign on the west end of the car last spring, likes it signed as an S~Special to Aqueduct.
8-) Sparky
Yipe! Well, she'll always be acceptable as a GG in my book. They ran there. Funny though how many of them DID end up doing the "premium run" to the track. You'd think the TA would have put something shiny on THAT run for the extra shekel. But as you know, I really don't care about the roll signs myself, their position doesn't affect brake cylinder or cam rollout. :)
You always had a thing for a green-green marker light setting, though.:)
Gotta show your colors. It's a Noo Yawk thing. :)
^^^"You always had a thing for a green-green marker light setting, though.:)"^^^
Hey Bronx Boy, yaw gotta belive he had the markers right for the
Lex-Woodlawn Express on the Low Vs. Had a squezze in the Bronx
in my youth, so learned to identify the Woodlawns on Lex. >GG<
8-) Sparky
And green-green lasted right up to the end for markers over yonder until they went dark for good. Green green was reserved for the classiest of trains. :)
(Selkirk runs for cover)
Such as this:
Or this:
Or even this:
The film must have been damaged in that last pic.
Heh. Nah, I can tell by the smoke, that was my follower. :)
Also, that looks like my buddy Ben in the middle picture there - he was often my LEADER ...
The film must have been damaged in that last pic.
No, it's called an E-6 (or its predecessors E-2, E-3, and E-4 - don't think there was an E-5) process film after a few years of storage. Lots of folks loved Anscochrome and Ektachrome (and now also Fuji Velvia) but the price you pay for those saturated colors and flat emulsion is the instability of the color dyes. Kodachrome (process K-14) is unique in that it doesn't suffer from that problem.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I stand corrected. Thanks.
Steve,
I got your message, green & green for Northbound D to 205th Street.
Funny thing though, I used the 'D' as an alternate to the Lex-Woodlawn
for the trip to Da Bronx, but never paid attention to marker lights,
with the R 1~38 type Route & Destination in the bulkhead. I was breed
on the IND >GG<, so what can I tell yaw.
8-) Sparky
Green/green for center track express in the Bronx, Green/white for local. Only time I ever CARED about my bulkhead markers since the last thing I wanted was to be thrown to the local tracks and be late at my terminal no matter HOW I wrapped it. :)
Sometimes I even played "Tower Roulette" by taking the "first local" and setting Green/green to see if I'd get my wish. Often did become an "extra" on the express.
Oy, you was bad on the road. Pity, the geese, who thought they was
on the local only to be expressed. >CC, Local< >D, Express peak
direction<
8-) Sparky
I had a job number. When I left the terminal, under the approval of the TMO, I was marked for "I am what I yam" ... if the railroad laid down and I got to 145th late, I wasn't about to be made even LATER because I arrived there after changeover time. But yeah, I was a kibbitzer - like any other good union person who'd had more than enough of their daily loaf of "organic matter" I'd try to pull what I could. :)
Being ON TIME is what matters, scwoo the geese. T'was MTA policy, let 'em write their congressfish. :(
I never paid any attention marker lights, either, much to my regret. Not until 1984, when I returned for the first time in four years. Then I started writing down every combination I saw whether it was correct or not. On one occasion, I was writing down a green-white setting on a D train of R-32s at 125th St. and the T/O looked at me as if to say what the $#$@$ are you doing. When I told him, he said they should be correct. IIRC I rode on that train to the Bronx, and it ran express along the Concourse line. Of course, by then the punch board was set up at the northern end of the station, and the T/O punched for the D Express lineup.
He was lined up for Concourse local if it was a northbound. Good thing nobody opened the bay window and LOOKED. :)
Keep in mind that marker light settings were changed in 1976. It's quite possible that the green-green combination may not have been used anymore afterwards. I'm not sure if anyone was paying attention to marker lights anymore by 1984. OTOH IRT trains were still sporting proper combinations then; this red-red business had not yet started.
As far as I know, they didn't mess with the D. But them pesky punches (the REAL reason for that yellow wood by the door) had taken over the system even before I ran the rails. :)
So you had to punch for the D express lineup at 125th then, correct? I wonder what would have happened if you would had done that during non-rush hours, say on a weekend. Hypothetically speaking. No dice, probably.
Definitely no dice ... remember also at the time that there was the CC running local when mine ran express. Since my last round trip was the start of the rush hour zone, I'd often be the last northbound express or close to it. The punch there was to determine if you were an A or a D ...
Uh John, I'm not from New York.:)
Whoops, posted to the wrong responder, the message was for Selkirk.
O.K., Jersey Guy. >GG<
8-) Sparky
That's OK - they're catching on here ... that like Heypaul/Avid, Steve/Selkirk ARE one and the same. :)
Well, let them think what they want, but I've eyeballed three of the
four, 'taint the same person. Haven't had the pleasure of meeting
Avid, though I been told he was lurking at Branford in October. >GG<
8-) ~ Sparky
Yep ... that makes it four for four. But still, like 76th Street, some legends are like that pink bunny ... :)
Wait a minute. Who says we're one and the same?
I do. Neener-neener ... gotta show them da PROFF ... both of us in the same place at the same time. :)
You can look on my webpage. The Subtalk Day pics are still there.
We have two things in common:
1. We're both Catholic.
2. We both love the R-1/9s.
Other than that.....
Heh. That's how rumors get started. :)
Well, here's my take:
I'm still single. You're happily married.
I never lived in New York. You were born and raised in the Bronx.
I never worked for the TA. You did.
I was born in 1956. You were born in 1951.
Moo.
Works for me, just slap me silly with maroon paint and I'm set to go. :)
Besides, Nancy knows we're not one and the same.:)
Nice try. I'm a native Hoosier, although I did live in Jersey for 6 years.
Whatever, turns you on. You just ain't a Brooklynite! Need a passport to come here. >GG<
;-) ~ Sparky
Why, soitanly!:)
No problem. I've got one of those.:)
Does anyone know how long it will be before all the redbirds are taken out of service?
Summertime for the mainlines. Flushing's redbirds should last somewhat longer.
What about the WF series?
My magic ball say the 150 R-33's on the 4 and 5 should be gone by summer, the R-36's on the 7 could be gone by sometime in 2004.
Then the ML ones should be cascaded to the Flushing. They are in better shape.
The WF series-R 36 and R 33S should be on the 7 line for at least another 4-5 years.
I say once you see R62s going from the 4 to the 3, then you will see R62As going from the 1/3/9 to the 7 and that will be very soon.
R142 1106-1110 have arrived from Bombardier. Once that whole order arrives, The Redbirds will be gone from the 4 for good-I say by July.
The 7 will take a bit longer as there are over 200 redbirds still left on that line-approximately 150 of them are GE Cars.
I say by this year's end, ALL OF THE REDBIRDS will be retired. :(
I hope they keep a few around just in case they need them.
(r142/r142a pull apart or for some similar instance). But I doubt that will happen.
#9000 5 Lexington Ave Bronx Thru Express
rode a bird on the 5 last friday and it had a bad wheel flat..it was so noisy i had to switch cars..i guess there are no plans to rebuild those trucks anymore..otherwise..carbodies looked pretty good..didn't get the numbers though.
I was in car 92xx on the 4 today. Still moved with great speed on express tracks, although the doors could use some coats of paint.
Email me please, my hard drive was wiped out, lost your addy.
Sorry, you'll have to e-mail me. I don't have my subtalk e-mail list.
What is the problem. a relative tells me no service going uptown on the 1 or 2.
AMI
Construction accident
See other posts
See other posts
See other posts
Hillside Ave. in Queens is crazy during rush hour, especially from Sutphin Blvd. going eastwards. Who does one write to in order to get the F line extended past 179th Street to say, Springfield Blvd? There are many buses full to the walls with people tryng to get to and from work every day - how come the folks in charge do not see this? I bet that there are some other places in Gotham that are screaming for extended subway service - let me hear from you guys out there. The transfer from bus to subway or vice versa can be real bad during a storm, especially in the winter months. How do we let them know what is needed?
Hasn't that been yelled for 50 years?
I always said connecting Queens Blvd to the Archer Ave. line was a mistake. My fantasy has always been using the Montauk LIRR ROW from the 63rd. St tunnel to Jamaica Center, completely bypassing Queens Blvd.
"I always said connecting Queens Blvd to the Archer Ave. line was a mistake."
That was not a mistake. It was actually an outstanding move and improved the utility of the Queens Blvd. corridor (and also allowed north-south movement using the J and E subways. I'm sorry that the E and J were not extended further, however. But one day that may happen.
"My fantasy has always been using the Montauk LIRR ROW from the 63rd. St tunnel to Jamaica Center, completely bypassing Queens Blvd. "
That's a great idea (and MTA thought about it too), and should have been done (or some variation of it) in addition to what they actually did.
That's a great idea (and MTA thought about it too), and should have been done (or some variation of it) in addition to what they actually did.
Too bad Geraldine Ferraro killed the plan when she was in Congress.
Pandering to the bigots...
Former Senator D'Amato deserves a lot of credit here also. He spoke at the QSOS public hearing in 1984, and said that he would cut off funding if the Montauk Options were adopted. It's in the minutes.
I don't view the connection from Archer Ave to Queens Blvd. as ideal. Busy service on this corridor means only a fraction of the capacity can be dedicated to Archer (the rest to 179th St). A Montaulk/Archer Ave. line could dedicate it's entire capacity to Archer Ave. And 179th St could have the express service it needs (2 lines) and had from 1950 to 1988.
"I don't view the connection from Archer Ave to Queens Blvd. as ideal."
Ideal would have been a lot more total track capacity in the area, as you correctly point out.
"Busy service on this corridor means only a fraction of the capacity can be dedicated to Archer (the rest to 179th St)."
Your description is misleading (actually, inaccurate!). There is substantial capacity present at Archer on both levels; meanwhile, the F service east of Van Wyck is very adequate to handle ridership at those stations. And people getting off at Forest Hills or Kew Gardens don't really care one way or the other.
Passengers looking for a way to travel north/south found it. There are people using the E and J for this purpose.
"A Montaulk/Archer Ave. line could dedicate it's entire capacity to Archer Ave."
Agreed. Find the money and build it. I told you I like your idea.
"And 179th St could have the express service it needs (2 lines) and had from 1950 to 1988."
A non-issue in reality. The time savings represented by an express east of Van Wyck is minimal, and the F handles current demand there very well. Now, if you extended the Hillside Avenue line a couple of miles further east with four new stations, you may have a point.
Additionally, a sizable group of passengers did appreciate being able to travel directly to Jamaica Hospital and the LIRR station. When in medical training in NY, I met a lot of folks who rode the subway to their Jamaica Hospital clinics.
They should extend the IRT Corona-Flushing Line to Bayside and have a branch to College Point. Extend the IND Queens Line to the Nassau County border. Extend the BMT Astoria Line to LaGuardia. Build a connecting line from the IND Queens Line to the Rockaways and have a extention from the Rockaway branch to JFK. Extend to Fulton St. line to as close to the Nassau county border as possible. Also build a connection from College Point to the Bronx and connect that line with the IRT White Plains Road line in the Bronx.
#3 West End Jeff
Where were you when MTA needed you?
Unfortunately I wasn't born until 1963. Those are not the only lines that I would want. There should be a connection between the IRT Westchester Ave., White Plains Road "No. 2" line in the Bronx and the IRT Pelham line "No. 6" in the Bronx. The connection would be between the Simpson St. station on the Westchester Ave. Line "No. 2" and the the Whitlock Avenue station on the Pelham "No. 6" line. I would have a Trans-Bronx subway Line Between 207th St. in Manhattan to Pelham Bay Park. I would extend the IND Concourse Line "D train" along Burke Ave. and then have it go along Boston Rd. to Ropes Ave. immediately south of the Westchester County Line. As a matter of fact I might have one subway line go into Westchester County. The IRT White Plains Road Line I would extend north of 241st St. into Mount Vernon. I would possibly extend the IRT Jerome Ave. Line into he Bronx all the way to White Plains along Central Park Avenue and have a joint operation between the MTA and Westchester county and enhance public transportation along Central Park Avenue. I would definitely build a 2nd Ave. subway in Manhattan. I would also build a direct connection from SIRT in Staten Island to Manhattan and Brooklyn via tunnels. There are other things that I would do to.
#3 West End Jeff
$$$$$$$$?
The 1939 "dream plan", as Stan Fischler writes in "The Subway", was to have what is today the F line in Queens run all the way to Little Neck Pkwy on the Nassau/Queens border. The line was to have used Hillside all the way from Queens Blvd. to the end. Likely stops east of 179 might have been:
188 St.(F)
191 St.(F)
Francis Lewis Blvd.(F & Express)
212 St.(F)
Springfield Blvd.(F)
Winchester Blvd.(F & Express)
Cross Island Pkwy.(F)
252 St.(F)
260 St.(F)
Little Neck Pkwy.(Term.)
Now if they'd only followed through when they built out to 179 St. in 1950!
In my humble opinion...The two big needs in New York for subway service are:
1. Another east side line eg. Second Ave.
2. A line through Queens, all the way east to Nassau County, hopefully with a connection at the end to the LIRR.
3 (extra) It would not hurt to have a line to NJ such as the L or 7 as well as a midtown line straight from the BMT eastern division without a transfer needed.
"3 (extra) It would not hurt to have a line to NJ such as the L or 7 as well as a midtown line straight from the BMT eastern division without a transfer needed."
Well you can forget these first two proposals, and you have the part of the Chrystie St. connection that hooks up to the Broadway El.
Only one problem with that, Little Neck Parkway comes at about 254th Street, which is between 252nd and 260th. Station should be at 249th Street. Cross Island Pkwy should read COMMONWEALTH BVLD (sic) in fact, you can dispense with 249th Street, go straight to LNP and terminate the locals two stops beyond at 267th Street. Only problem with that is parking.
191st Street should read 197th Street.
wayne
I stand corrected! Thanks.
Write to:
Douglas Sussman, Deputy Director
MTA Govt. and Community Relations
347 Madison Avenue, NY NY 10017
Send a copy of your letter to:
Hon. Helen Marshall
Queens Borough President
120-55 Queens Blvd.
Kew Gardens NY 11424
THANKS! Who knows what will get done?
My friend, every politician, planner, and NYCT bureaucrat knows where new lines are needed throughout the City of New York. The only "problem" is finding the money to do it. Even with the feds picking up 90% of the tab, the city and state will still say that they can't afford it. Also NIMBYs will not want new subway construction in their neighborhoods. And that's the reality.
Also NIMBYs will not want new subway construction in their neighborhoods.
Hmmm... ostracism anyone? At least that way the NIMBYs will stop clogging up the roads and subways without allowing anything to be done about it.
(Also NIMBYs will not want new subway construction in their neighborhoods.)
True in Maspeth, but are there NIMBY's in SE Queens or along Hillside Ave? I thought the people and politicians there would love a subway extension.
Construction of this magnitude brings congested traffic, horn blowing, difficulty in crossing streets, dirt being tracked into buildings by walking and in the air and rats.
"Construction of this magnitude brings congested traffic, horn blowing, difficulty in crossing streets, dirt being tracked into buildings by walking and in the air and rats. "
Not with modern construction methods. Granted, a TBM might not be useable for extending the F. But if you take enough care, even cut and cover can be done in a way to limit disruption.
You have to communicate with the neighborhood - and if you do disrupt something, you have to restore it to just like it was.
>>>>Construction of this magnitude brings congested traffic, horn blowing, difficulty in crossing streets, dirt being tracked into buildings by walking and in the air and rats. <<<
Except for the "dirt being tracked into buildings" all of these things exsist already.
Peace,
ANDEE
"Construction of this magnitude brings congested traffic, horn blowing, difficulty in crossing streets, dirt being tracked into buildings by walking and in the air and rats."
It seems preferable to being packt like sardines in a crushd tin box, at least to me. It is unfortunately also true that the NIMBY opposition to various projects, since time out of mind really, has had even some measure of success. The NIMBYs must be well organized; perhaps it is time for the forces of progress to similarly unite when things arrive in the coming years and are threatened by nothing more than avariciousness (there may well be good objections to some proposals, but the fact that , say, more extermination might be called for in order to better the lives of everyone and raise the quality of living for all can hardly serve as legitimate grounds to oppose rail projects)?
By the way, this is my first post here; I've been lurking in the shadows for some time, but I thought I should add that this is a lovely little corner of the web here.
Welcome, Jon... those of us who have been around since the beginning, or close to it, of this space agree... it is a lovely little corner of the web.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
they said the same thing with the WATER TUNNEL 3 constuction....but thats being dug under their very feet....
They would, to a point.
You could extend the F line up Hillside Av into the 200's without causing a fuss. The closer you get t Glen Oaks, though, the more NIMBY you might run into.
But that's OK. Extending the F by two miles and adding 4 new stations would still be a great thing.
After 179th Street:
North of this station there are eight storage tracks, four on each of two levels, which continue as far as 184th Street.
IND Ghosts:
A subway station located below 212th Street in Queens Village. Supposedly, there are skylights on the sidewalk along 212th St and Jamaica Avenue, and a subway tunnel along 73rd Ave. right to Alley Pond Park.
Hillside Avenue widens out considerably at Springfield Boulevard in Queens Village, with service roads and main roads a la Queens Boulevard. It's said that this was a provision for a new eastern terminal for the IND, and the 1929 plan does have trains running to Springfield Boulevard.
Just FYI in case some haven't seen this.
But I 110% agree about extending the line.
North of this station there are eight storage tracks, four on each of two levels, which continue as far as 184th Street. "
There appears to be disagreement about whether the layups end at 182 or 184 street. Nonetheless, it would begreat to extend one level a couple of miles and establish some new stations.
We would then need to add a little rolling stock to the F.
Nonetheless, it would begreat to extend one level a couple of miles and establish some new stations.
Wouldn't that add more passengers to the already maxed out Queens Blvd Express?
What would make the Hillside Av line more extendible outwards would be to attach either the local or the express to a new subway on Metropolitan Avenue, either becoming a branch of the 14th St line or an extension of the M Train.
"Wouldn't that add more passengers to the already maxed out Queens Blvd Express?"
Yes, but the effect would be that more passengers would be redistributed to the V train, which, while it already has been useful, has room. Passengers boarding east of Union Turnpike would not be inconvenienced.
"What would make the Hillside Av line more extendible outwards would be to attach either the local or the express to a new subway on Metropolitan Avenue, either becoming a branch of the 14th St line or an extension of the M Train. "
That's a nice idea, but extending the Hillside Av line first would add a lot of advocates to your plan (read: political support), whereas now you might have NIMBY trouble you can't overcome.
"IND Ghosts:
A subway station located below 212th Street in Queens Village. Supposedly, there are skylights on the sidewalk along 212th St and Jamaica Avenue, and a subway tunnel along 73rd Ave. right to Alley Pond Park.
Hillside Avenue widens out considerably at Springfield Boulevard in Queens Village, with service roads and main roads a la Queens Boulevard. It's said that this was a provision for a new eastern terminal for the IND, and the 1929 plan does have trains running to Springfield Boulevard. "
I've seen it on the main site; thanks for the reminder, though. Has anyone ever checked these spots out?
I'd not bother to extend the Hillside Avenue Line, since it is already running to capacity.
Instead, I'd build my Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway.
It features all new river crossings, a new Manhattan trunk line, and HIGH SPEED express services (Read 80 mph).
Elias
"I'd not bother to extend the Hillside Avenue Line, since it is already running to capacity.
That is a point of concern, but not a reason not to extend the line. Space isn't a huge problem at the 179 St end. If the trains fill up as expected, more passengers starting at Forest Hills would choose to then fill up the V train.
Extending the F train is cost-effective.
And now to your fantasy world.
"Instead, I'd build my Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway.
It features all new river crossings, a new Manhattan trunk line, and HIGH SPEED express services (Read 80 mph). "
I commend you for your creativity.
Looking at the 1978 map on this site, Broadway in Manhattan has only a QB (Brighton to 57th, presumably only weekdays), an N (Sea Beach or Whitehall to 57th or Continental) and an RR (95th to Astoria).
On weekends, was there really only the N express via bridge and the R local via tunnel?
That sounds like an awful level of service!
Yes. Outside of a few QB trains in the peak direction on the express and a handful of N specials to Whitehall St. on the local the N and RR were the only trains servicing the Broadway BMT at all times from 1976 to 1986!
There was an oddity on the Broadway BMT during this time. All N trains, either normal runs or the specials to Whitehall St made all local stops from 57th St. to Canal St, downtown in the AM, uptown in the PM. At this time there was no Broadway express service in these directions at these times. Talk about crappy service!
When the N was running express, it skipped 49th St. and made the switchover just south of 57th St. At least that was the case once when I rode on a midday n/b N once back then.
There was a construction accident at Times Square
Suspension in all westside 1,2,3,7, GCT Shuttle, N/R/W at TSQ
IRT:
1 Terminates at 96 or 137
3 Train is gone
Brooklyn bound 2 and bronx 2 routed via 5
7 train service terminated at GCT
S terminated all together
Not sure about N/R/W, can't pick up BMT transmissions. Only heard what control center had to say.
OK, alternate 1's from VCP will be terminated at 137 while the others will be turned at 96. 3's are shuttling from 148 to 135, 3's from New Lots going to 148 will be turned at Chambers. Third rail shut off on westside IRT from 34st-50st. Again, reason is construction accident. More information as I get it.
Oh, and of course the only only mention on 1010 or 880 was about how th accident was affecting traffic.
I did hear about it around 5:30pm, but since they made no mention of subway service interruptions, I throught it was minor. Still, usually when there's any type of construction accident, they suspend subway service in the area.
What kind of accident? Was anyone hurt?
An the cable of an elevator thats used by construction workers of a building under construction snapped.That's all I heard,no mention if anyone was hurt or not.
What a mess, I hope no one was hurt.
I was just in that area around 4:30pm, transferred from a packed 2 to a 7 express at Times Square, wow, i sure got lucky.
No wonder why i heard some much babble on the T/O's radio on the way back to Flushing.
At the time of your post, I was en route from 53/Lex to 86 between Amsterdam and Columbus. I decided to IND it the whole way, though since I had to change at Columbus Circle to a local, I could have gone upstairs instead -- I'm glad I didn't try! The C I caught was unusually crowded, and now I know why.
About two hours earlier, I was waiting at 86/Broadway when a 5 train ("7 AV EXPRESS") went by on the express track. Any idea what happened there? If I hadn't been in a rush, I would have gotten off at 72 and waited for an R-33 set, now otherwise extinct on the West Side.
There was also something going on in Queens. While waiting at 53/Lex, I heard an announcement: "After an earlier incident at Steinway Street, local trains are now running. Please be patient." Poor R had problems in two places!
I first heard it at 34 ST / 6Ave from a C/R's radio on the D Train. Control was saying #1 service suspended from 96 St to Chambers #2 service sent down the Lex Line. #3 NO service between 96 St and Chambers. # 7 no service between Times SQ and Grand Central. No N,Q,W service between Queensboro Plaza and Canal Street. R trains replaced V Train service.
Anyway I needed to get to Queens from 34 St so I took the V train since it just happen to 74 Street where I got the #7 to Main St. Then on the return trip I needed to get back to my car parked at 242 St/ Bway that was a long trip. I took the #7 to Grand Central then got on the #6 to 51 St. Then took the E train to 7 Ave and got on a D Train to 59 Street. Now I took the A train to 168 Street where I had a 15 Minute wait for the Uptown #1 train. It was plugged by a work train. It was a long day for riding the rails I had a friend with me she never rode on the Subways so I wanted to show her the diffrent lines are areas in NYC. It just seemed like everything got in our way today plus I was on a Uptown W train at Bay 50th at 3:30 those school kids are bad we spent 5 Minutes in the station because of door holding.
Was 7 express service suspended as well? Usually if they have to short turn at Grand Central (I guess they use the 1st ave crossovers)they cant run trains as frequently. Though I think they should run the expresses anyway, since it is usually chaos when there is no express service on a weekday at anytime.
YEP.I was there yesterday,at 42nd/8th ave... and everything was shut down.No N/Q/R/W/1/2/3/7 or S. R trains were running on the 8th ave line,and V trains stoped running from Queens to Manhattan. Everything was screwed up....
Yes there was no #7 Express service and at Main Street one 1 of every 2 trains was in service. I would have to say at 7:20 when I was at Main street the headway had to be 10 Minutes. The #7 was not the line to be on.
Just wondering, Has service resumed?
Here is the story from the Times:
http:www.nytimes.com/2003/03/05/nyregion/05COLL.html
Pardon me. I don't know where the two slashes went. Story on construction accident from the Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/05/nyregion/05COLL.html
A friendly word of advice to young Mr. Parker (Clayton):
Do not ever state that you heard something over the scanner.
In doing so you have violated several NYS laws and at least one Federal law.
This is a matter that has been discussed a number of times here on SubTalk. Scanner transmissions are to be treated as privileged information. You are not supposed to repeat what you have heard.
If you want to pass on information, then at least don't say the word scanner.
Whoops...sorry bout that.
Here's something you're guaranteed not to care about. I was leafing through Alan Lind's book "From Horsecars to Streamliners" (about St. Louis Car Company), as I am wont to do, and I came across an illustration on p249 of a St. Louis #46 truck known as the "DuPont" type. Interestingly, at the Connecticut Trolley Museum in Warehouse Point, CT, is Nassau Electric Railway single-truck streetcar #169 (later BMT work car #83), which the CTM website says has a DuPont truck. Does anyone know whether this is actually a St. Louis #46? Comparing photos they look pretty similar, but have significant differences like springing over the journal boxes. I'm just not sure, and would appreciate word from someone who knows about such things. Thanks.
...well, I TOLD you that you wouldn't care. :-)
Frank Hicks
Yeah, that is a very obscure question. I've always wondered
about the "DuPont" truck, since I've never heard of such a thing.
The car was made by SLCC, so it makes sense that it is a St. Louis
truck beneath. Where do you have a picture of it?
There are a couple of photos of the car at:
http://www.ceraonline.org/collection/car169.htm
They're pretty interesting; an unloading shot from when CTM acquired the car (this doesn't show the truck), and a roster shot that has a good view of the car. Just within the past month CTM was able to put their "complete/updated" website back online - it still hadn't fully recovered from being hacked last year.
Frank Hicks
Their web site wasn't "hacked". The original web administrator
left the organization and took the passwords with him. The web
site was unmaintained and eventually the hosting company made
an error and pointed it to somebody else's site. Some time later,
the new webmaster took over and re-created the original site content
on another server.
"The original web administrator left the organization and took the passwords with him."
Oops. I know this sort of thing is not uncommon with restoration projects, but I can't think of any other instances of it happening with a museum's website. Well, I'll say this - whoever the new webmaster is has done a very nice job of rebuilding the CTM site.
Frank Hicks
This morning there was no local service o the 6 between 42 and 125,
They said it was due to "police action"
Happens all the time. This happens to be my home station as well. What a small world, huh?
This morning there was no local service o the 6 between 42 and 125,
They said it was due to "police action" What happened?
7166-70 have arrived on the property despite the problems encountered at Fresh Pond earlier in the day. It's only 8:30, aren't they early tonight?
-Stef
[ 8:35 PM] 020101 NYC BULLETIN
(TIMES SQUARE) +POLICE ACTIVITY+ HAS 7TH AVE +STILL CLOSED+ 42ND ST TO 40TH ST. CONSTRUCTION ELEVATOR INCIDENT)... EXPECT DELAYS ON ALL CITY BUSES THROUGH TIME SQUARE.
I guess an elevator plunged. I hope there are no deaths.
I'm guessing the power's out there too - tried to access the NYCDOT cameras at 42 and 8, 46 and BWay and 42 and BWay and they ain't lit. Nada. Sure do hope nobody was below it.
And AS USUAL, not a PEEP out of CNN or the others - didn't happen in Atlanta. :(
Not even anything on CBS, NY1, or WINS, which are actually in NYC.
They all depend on CNN apparently. wcbs880.com has it in the "traffic report" section but apparently "metrocommute" went awol. It's like Todd Glickman's station depending on the Weather Channel (Atlanta also) ... so you learn to fend for yourself and get your OWN data. There's THREE NYCDOT cameras in the affected area that should be able to see it, but the whole shooting match is down for the count.
But no surprise it wouldn't be covered. After all, Connie Chunk is off on some anti-aging creme. That's FAR more important. Maybe Larry King. Nah. :)
At 10:22, the S/B camera at 46/B'way is showing a very empty Times Sq.
I've been told that an elevator on a building under construction at 41st Street and Seventh Avenue fell 53 stories, and that its counterweight is in a precarious position and in danger of falling. If it does fall, they fear it might crash through the street and into the subway, so they suspended service.
We subtalkers should dispatch HeyPaul to the scene!!
Saw this film (the opening) on VH1 some time ago and has a lenghty scene with LIRR M-1s (or M-3s ?)somewhere along the Babylon or Ronkonoma branch. Show moring commuters about to board their M-1's (still with their blue stripe).
Was the best scene in the whole movie. The rest was a snoozer. Much more worthy movies are: "The Warriors, French Connection, and The Taking of Pelham 123". Even "Nighthawks" with Sly Stallone has a cool scene chasing the bomber through the 63 St tunnel while under construction and on a train of R1-9's. Earlier in the movie, you see R36 cars in World's Fair colors.
And let's not forget "Seven-Ups" complete with many shots of Bronx els including those damned R12's on the third avenue el (it's running now on FMC) ...
You really are not fond of the IRT, aren't you Unca Selkirk?
Actually, I've always been ambivalent. Growing up in the Bronx as I did, the IRT was like roaches. Everywhere. With just ONE 10 foot wide "stretch limo" line, IND was a bit special. My despising of the R12's is solely because they replaced the precious LoV's on the third avenue el and signalled the demise of my OWN favorite line. And they were in that horrid "war between the states" color scheme on top of the other insult of the LoV's going away.
But no, I don't despise the IRT ... it was just so ubiquitous that you tended to ignore it being there. I had a REAL love of the LoV's though - I had to transfer it to the Arnines while THEY lasted. But THAT'S my malfunction there. :)
I gotcha there. I kinda wish I was around to ride the ol' Third Ave El. But I wasn't born until 1977, but I always enjoy hearing stories from family and co-workers who used to ride or live next to the el. One co-worker said that the South Bronx area where he grew up was better when the el was up. He mentioned things had gone bad when it closed. Maybe the TA should have just rebuilt it and maybe today, it would probably still be running. I hate the idea of the BX55 replacing a dignified train line. I felt the same with the Q49 replacing trains at Metropolitan Ave and Queens Blvd. I never knew the J went to 168 St until I was old enough to go to the Transit Museum by myself. That was around 1992.
Actually the line was SLOW and slipshod in many ways by the time it died. But that made it CHARMING too - especially the remains of the old wrought iron stations, the wooden platforms and the bucolic ride. You didn't use it for SPEED, but it was a nice place to ride and reflect and hit 149 St. I *loved* it every bit as much as I loved the Myrtle ... which curiously suffered from, and was charmed by, the EXACT same situation. Both lines were wonderful bits of living history while they lasted. And neither borough is the same without them now. :(
That scene on the LIRR was filmed at Cedarhurst (Far Rock Branch), and then along the Atlantic Avenue viaduct in Brooklyn.
Waste of a good train in a cheesy movie.
Come on now. Michele Pheiffer was adorable. Pretty much anything she's in is a winner (except "Dangerous Minds")
Come on now. Michele Pheiffer was adorable. Pretty much anything she's in is a winner (except "Dangerous Minds")
Yeah, but she's never shown her "charms."
Ahhhh - you've seen 2 and you've seen em all.
Ahhhh - you've seen 2 and you've seen em all.
2 Movies? :-)
Of course, Karl. What else could I be referring to. BTW, looks like Mikey and I will be out to see you (next month)?
That sounds great! I sure hope nothing comes up that forces you to change your plans. Mike agreed with me last fall when I said that I thought you would really be impressed.
Incidently, I like Michelle too. I thought she was terrific in Sweet Liberty, One Fine Day & Up Close and Personal!
Especially in Up Close and Personal.
M-1 or M-3?
How about "The Incident"? Starring Ed McMann of Johnny Carson fame. A complete ride from the Bronx to Manhattan in glorious black and white. I think it beats The Taking of Pelham 123 in pure elevated and subway film footage. Great shots of the stations along the line too. Dang it, I can't remember which line it was though.
The movie was "set" as being on the Woodlawn Jerome line, however the FOOTAGE (when not in a studio mockup on a sound stage) was ACTUALLY the third avenue el in the Bronx ...
A very late film (1968) to have been shot in black and white, but it both evokes the proper nervous tension mood of the movie, and the Low V-WF car just seems to fit in with the monochome look (the aged design combined with the narrower IRT cars add to the claustrophobic feel, which is exactly what the filmmakers had in mind).
And Ed does way better here than he did with Pia Zadora in "Butterfly"...
Heh. I forgot all about that other dog until you brought it up. Yeah, the film was definitely intended to USE the black and white and although it really wasn't that great a movie, the TRAIN shots in it was superb. And you can TELL that the TA didn't want them on their property with all those rooftop and street shots of the trains going by ... they still managed to snag a few fare areas and platforms anyway. Musta been "grab some frames then run like hell" like an Ed Wood shoot. :)
I saw "Buttefly" when it first came out. "Mystery Science Theater 3000" was still just a gleam in a couple of Minnesotan's eyes, but the audience had a great time coming up with dialogue to reply to the characters on screen.
I should have brought a tape recorder. Sometime's a film really is so bad it's good (which paraphrases a lot of what Pia actually says during the movie. You can see why the foreign film critics gave her a Golden Globe for this one...)
Heh. Been to WAY too many of THOSE kinda flicks. :)
They actually concealed their cameras in bags and/or boxes. The cops got suspicious when they stated hearing whirring noises emanating from the bags.
BTW there is a very brief shot of an SMEE 4 train entering the tunnel south of 161st St.
Imagine if they tried that *now* ... there'd be stains up and down the platform, and the occasional sizzling sound from the third rail. :)
And the final scene was shot at Brook Avenue station. Been a long time since I saw this film.
Starz/Encore has run it a few times lately. They did cover a lot of the third avenue el though when they weren't in the plywood subway car. :)
You can see the curve of 210th St-Williamsbridge on the #8 (night shot) even tho the station sign says "Mt Eden Ave".
Ah yes, and those classic 1938 Steinway Worlds Fair Lo-V's...
wayne
The Incident is notable for being one of the few movies about the subway system where most of the action on board the subway car was shot on a full-scale mockup instead of in the system....The director realized that the film required more flexibility than the confines of an actual A-Division car allowed, so they contacted the St. Louis Car Company who gladly furnished the film co. with pictures and detailed drawings of a steinway car. Somewhere on the web is a site with all the info on this...
The annual Philadelphia flower show is on thru this weekend.
Want a glimpse of spring?
Why not take the train down? Any excuse to come to Philly to ride the El, the Sub, and trolleys, and you can get lost in the tropical theme of the show!
Come on down!
HA! It's like 22 bucks to get in, better not plan on riding Amtrak, you'll need every penny that you save NJT to SEPTA just to get in.
NOW if the 23 trolley was running under the convention center next to Reading Terminal, then it might be worth it to pay 22 bucks to get in and look out the windows, then I might go.
Until then I think I can think of better things to spend 22 bucks on, like a fantrip or something.
I went. Rode the 34 trolley there and back.
Mark
heavy rail lower manhattan 45 min on J/Z or more on all others from queens
Railroad lower manhattan via FBA on lirr-17 min on LIRR, 5-10 mins on subway
if Queens bus rides used the LIRR at jamaica instead of the subway, the lirr can offer a free transfer- like the paper bus transfers-but with a lirr ticket from Jamaica to FBA on the transfer instead of a metrocard strip
if the MTA used sense, they can have a much more useful use of the Atlantic-Pacific complex, with added M service, and heavy advertizing the ta could have a perfect solution with any new tunnels or anything. and yes FBA is WAAAYYYY underserviced in the rush
Well apparently there is a G.O. going on that M train's are terminating at Chambers St and not 9Av because of track work there.I saw this yesterday while I did my train trip.Is this an emergency G.O. that only happened yesterday or is this another G.O. that the TA FAILED to put on thier website?If this is a regular G.O. then probably this week 10AM-3PM,M trains run between Metropolitan Av and Chambers St only.Transfer to the 4 at Chambers St for service to Court St/Borogh Hall for N&R service along 4th Av.
Or you could more simply transfer to the N, R & W at Canal St.
Yeah,that too.It slipped my mind.
Ouch. What a nice double transfer, including - eugh - Fulton St.
If 9th Av is out as a terminal, it would have been easier for riders to have something like this:
(M) 4th Av Express - 59th St (relaying on the Sea Beach Express tracks)
(N) 4th Av Express - Sea Beach
(R) 4th Av Local - 95th St
(W) 4th Av Local - West End
Sea Beach Express tracks are out for another, unrelated GO.
The Ms are short-turning at Chambers because a GO has every other W terminating at Bay Parkway.
So why can't the M run to 9th Avenue? That shouldn't interfere with the W.
Sorry. Yet another GO has 9th Ave middle track OOS for signal work. The two work together - why, I don't know since they are run by different towers.
Why so many GO's at once in the same area?
Why not send alternate M's to 95th for the time being? I'm sure some people are showing up at Broad, Fulton, and Chambers planning to go south to Brooklyn on the M. If there were so much as a posting on the website, at least some people would know to walk over to the N/R instead.
Is the N running local in Brooklyn or have local passengers lost half their service with no warning?
Ouch! Too many GOs! So why not send both (M) and (N) to 86th St, make the (W) local on 4th Av and via the Rathole, with the (N) on da Bridge?
Sure hope there are signs posted for people waiting for the M between 36th and Fulton. A lot of people board the Metro-bound M at Court and Fulton, and the 9th-bound M at Fulton and Broad during midday hours. There'd be a lot of angry people who find they've been waiting for a train that isn't running- especially on the downtown Broad Street platform, which is a dead end without the M going through Montague.
Except for the dead end at Broad, it's fairly easy to get around this GO from both directions, if you know what to do- AND if there are proper signs and station announcements.
The Queens-bound G at Fulton Street seems to stop at the east end of the
platform (towards Queens), which is suboptimal because the only entrance/exit is at the west (towards Hoyt-Schermerhorn) end of the platform, via tunnel passage to the Smith/9th-bound side. Stupid.
Is there any good reason for this? If not, is there someone I can
contact at the MTA to fix it?
Its because of the position of the monitors I believe.
It's just as bad at Broadway, where the Queens-bound train stops fully at the north end, while the only exit is at the south. And the Brooklyn-bound G at Metropolitan Avenue stops a full car away from the exit (and transfer) at the north end. It's inexcusable. And OPTO is not the culprit, since this occurs with two-man crews.
Man quit your bitchin and moaning and deal with it like a man and don't be so f***ing lazy!
Yeah...but what if toro-papa is a person with bad legs?
Firstly, not everyone has the athletic abilities of active people. A young person can probably walk this whole distance but what about the elderly, disabled or children? Next time, stop making foolish assumptions unless you get a kick out of making an ass of yourself.
It'd be ironic if I see you out of breath while trying to walk the full length of the platform.
I can walk a platform length 10times over.Just watch me do 30laps back and forth without a problem.I once walked 3 1/2 miles for about 2 hours without ever stopping for a break.So I believe,just like everyone else,the guy is just complaining cause he's lazy.
I can walk a platform length 10times over.Just watch me do 30laps back and forth without a problem.I once walked 3 1/2 miles for about 2 hours without ever stopping for a break.So I believe,just like everyone else,the guy is just complaining cause he's lazy.
Maybe he's disabled or elderly, rather than lazy.
By the way, walking is not exercise. Walking is a way to get from one point to another point.
"Maybe he's disabled or elderly, rather than lazy."
Good point.
"By the way, walking is not exercise. Walking is a way to get from one point to another point. "
No, not true. Walking is both a way to get somewhere and very good, low-impact, heart-healthy exercise. You won't burn as many calories per hour this way as with other activities, or gain athletic fitness, but it is helpful to your body.
By the way, walking is not exercise. Walking is a way to get from one point to another point.
No, not true. Walking is both a way to get somewhere and very good, low-impact, heart-healthy exercise. You won't burn as many calories per hour this way as with other activities, or gain athletic fitness, but it is helpful to your body
Everyone says that walking's a good exercise, but I have my doubts. I've always been big on walking. If the weather's decent, I try to get out and walk for at least a half-hour every day at lunch. Some evenings I'll walk the two miles to Penn Station after work rather than take the subway. I had thought that I was in pretty decent shape thanks to all that walking. But last August, while on vacation in Arizona, I tried using some of the cardio equipment in the hotel's fitness center ... and let me tell you, I had an unpleasant surprise. Five minutes on an elliptical trainer felt tougher than an hour's brisk walking. It was pretty obvious that walking's exercise benefits were quite overstated. Of course, the experience turned out to be a good one, as it motivated me to take up serious exercise and weight training, and to put my marshmallow days behind me. But clearly, walking's not all it's cracked up to be.
You're all missing the point. I'll walk the damn half a train length. Some people can't, or shouldn't have to. There's no reason why people should have to run for the train whenever it comes, because there's no sign saying that the train doesn't stop near the platform entrance. It's something I thought should be fixed because it was incredibly stupid. People have posted reasons why it's that way. Great. Now I know. It's not about laziness.
Well the TA isn't gonna do diddly squat about it just cause one guy complains.now if a million people complain,THEN they'll do something. So looks like everyone at Fulton St will just have to deal with it.
Good for you, maybe you'll get hit by a train, get your legs cut off, and you'll have to wheel down the platform to get the G train which "platformed stupidly". Not so easy, eh? Think for others, not only for yourself.
V Train, I suspect that the distance doesn't bother most of us on this board... even those of us here who, like myself, have some difficulty walking great distances will do so for the sake of a railfan window or some other desired goal. But we don't make up the majority of transit riders - people who are using the subway to get from point A to point B do - and the MTA needs to recognize the needs of those people, their primary customers, and act appropriately. As I'm sure you recognize, its customers are people of all ages, in all states of health, and the MTA must do its best to make usage of the subway easier for the least able of its passengers.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It just makes sense for shorter trains to stop nearest to the busiest entrance/exit. If two entrances and or exits exist then stop in between. The biggest limitation of platform mounted monitors is the fact that the T/O needs too stop at the monitor location. The monitors are most likely set up so they can also be used by full length trains. That is why having in cab flat panel or wireless monitors makes more sense. It allows more operational flexibility and also corrects the sloppy project managment and planning which the TA is famous for
The G trains stop all the way at the opposite ends of the platform at Fulton Street and Broadway because the line is partly OPTO. The trains have to stop where the T/O can see the entire length of the 4 car train. The straightest parts of the platforms where he can see the whole train happen to be where the exits are not.
He can get into some serious trouble if he does not make the proper station car stops. So it looks like for the time being, people at those stations will be doing the G train sprint. Sorry.
Either you love the G, or you hate the G. I love it. Takes me where I wanna go in Brooklyn fast! 4 car trains fly!
Good reasons? Yes and no. While it has been said and is true, positioning of the car markers in certain spots is for the view of an operator/conductor to see the platform when no cameras exist. However with a little money, some spots could benefit with the help of platform cameras and monitors. Fulton St. northbound was rumored to get cameras for a while now but no action has commenced. During OPTO operation, northbound G trains stop at the very north end of the station. During regular operation, the train stops about 100 feet further south. I think they (TA) would be able to stop the train another 50 feet south and still have the operator be able to observe his/her train without any cameras. If some money was spent, cameras would be able to afford the train to stop at the south end of the station. Broadway northbound was mentioned also. The only place you are guarunteed to catch a train is at the conductors board. OPTO stops at the south end of the station. Train operator stops his/her position at the conductors board and uses cameras and monitors to view the platform. During regular operation, the train stops at the very north end and the back of the train is at the conductors board. The north end of the platform is straight. Without the addition of any new monitors, I feel the train (during regular operation) could stop about 100 feet south of where it does now. While this would benefit the riding public, it also benefits the employees as well because the passengers won't be angry towards them that they had to run after the train. Some customers feel the employees do this on purpose rather than just obeying the rules. As far as contacting someone, there must be someone that handles this somewhere but I'm not sure it would be of any good. I've heard some superintendents try to question some spots and were told that for safety reasons, and thorough studies, that is where they (TA) have decided to stop the trains at. I was helpful in getting the OPTO car marker moved at Woodhaven Blvd. however. When OPTO began on the G the short trains were stopping at the north half of the station, away from the staircases and main entrance that were at the southern half of the station. People were running for the train, getting angry with the operators. Trains were delayed because so many people were trying to board the first car. The TA finally moved the car marker about 100 feet south to another set of monitors and the crowding situation at this station is much better. TA could install cameras/monitors at some places but for their reasons, some people have to walk farther than others. Some monitors were installed at some stations at the R110B boards along the A line recently but when was the last time the R110B went down the road?
I notice that also, I get the A Train to Hoyt and then get the G Train to Fulton When Im going to dad's house, and its very annoying walking under that underpath, and very dangerous at times.
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
If not, is there someone I can
contact at the MTA to fix it?
Yes, you can e-mail the MTA here.
Same problem at Smith-9th SB (last stop). The only exit is at the far north end of the platform. The OPTO marker is at the midpoint (good) but the 6-car marker is at the far south end (bad), so weekend passengers have it easy but weekday passengers all have to walk.
I think the idea is that the person who opens the doors is always in the same place. When there's a C/R, he's in the last car. When there isn't a C/R, the T/O opens the doors, and he's in front. And on the F, the C/R is in the middle. A second set of monitors would be a worthwhile investment, I think.
I agree with you.
I also agree. This board is begining to make common sense. OOPS,
time to egress. >GG<
8-) Sparky
Remember the recent thread? Randy Kennedy offers his two cents' worth on the subject:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/04/nyregion/04TUNN.html
Yes, we do remember this morning's thread about this column :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anyone going to this:
A special Full Board Meeting to discuss the MTA Financial Plan will be held on:
Thursday, March 6, 2003
9:30 AM
5th Floor Board Room
347 Madison Avenue
New York, New York
Info taken from here: http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/hearings.htm
I might be there. Maybe we can do a secret handshake or something. I want to keep a low profile.
Oh Man!!!! My spring break starts this coming week. I really really really wanna go. I have something to say to these MTA Board people. Why now? Why not next week. Damn! Shoot! :(
Skip class and come to the meeting.
Can't, I got a midterm. :( GRRR! Oh well, I hope there will be another one next week. I was thinking about meeting you for the time in a way. Anyway, I liked your website, its awesome, especially the "Most Popular Pic, I felt sorry for that chinese kid who injuried from that bike competition in Great Wall. And that Sandstorm. They are really cool!
Thanks. I haven't updated that section in a while because I'm afraid someone from the AP or Reuters will sue me. In any event, it looks like I won't be going to the MTA meeting. My boss is going, but it seems he won't be taking me. I really wanted to go. Oh well.
---Brian
BTW, the chinese wall guy who died...he had already made a successful jump over the wall the day before or a few hours before and he doed trying it a second time. He should have quit while he was ahead.
Thanks for posting that. I really wish I could go.
I encourage anyone who can, to attend.
I was walking home in Flushing Tues. night at about midnight, when I heard a distant train horn...two long toots, followed by two short ones...and the unmistakable WHOOSH you hear when the train goes by. The PW branch is 3 blocks away, but there was NO train passing by when I glanced there during the noise, which was more distant than the noise from 3 blocks away, in any case.
The Jamaica main line is several miles to the south. Given the proper atmospheric conditions, can the noise carry all the way to Flushing?
I've noticed the phenomenon in other areas, as well, when there are no train tracks in the immediate vicinity.
Or maybe I'm nuts.
Any ideas?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I had a similar experience recently. I live in Rockville Centre, about 1 mile north of the tracks. Last week one late evening, I heard the long-long-short-long and thought at first it was coming from the Babylon branch -- but why would they be sounding that sequence when there are no crossings. A minute later I heard it again, and then again once more. Finally one last time. I realized it was a Long Beach branch train stopping at East Rockaway and Oceanside. Those stations are a 2.5 - 3 miles from my house.
I have also heard trains at Lakeview station which is about 2 miles west of my house.
CG
Sound travels in different ways, depending on atmospheric conditions (wind, cloud cover, snowpack), other external noises, and of course the decibel level itself and the direction of the sound waves. Out in the boonies, you can hear approaching train horns from several miles away, while in more crowded areas and with high winds or rain, train noises can just disappear amid other sounds.
Well maybe there were track workers. I used to hear horns coming from the south when I lived in Wantagh, usually at night. There were no grade crossings, maybe it an out of service train passing stations (or an express).
I could even hear the horns on the electrics as well, with a stiff south wind.
Probably not. It sounded more distant than usual, and it was one of those quiet nights that just seem to lend themselves to hearing things at a distance. Plus, the time that I heard it corresponded to a train on the LB Branch.
Back when I lived in Wantagh, I could hear the main line diesel trains blowing their horns, whenever there was a light north wind, this was usually at night. Of course, I could hear the diesels on the Babylon branch as well.
As well as here' in the evening, if the wind is easterly and the air moist, I can hear the diesel locomotives, going between Glen Cove and Glen Head. And if winds are calm or easterly, I always hear the horns. Not on a west wind though.
Sometimes on a nice foggy night the train sounds so close, but it's really a 20 minute walk away, or almost 1 mile.
Also, some mornings while waiting for the train at Sea Cliff, I can hear the horns blowing all the way from Locust Valley. It all depends on the wind, and humidity.
This happens all the time where I live in Leicester, UK. I often hear trains on the Midland Main Line even when I'm 2 miles away - after that hills tend to get in the way of the sound.
At night, when the air is colder and denser, sound travels farther. That, and the relative absence of other sounds (such as the cacaphony we're all used to during the day), makes it easier to hear train whistles. It also makes them sound closer than they really are.
At night, when the air is colder and denser, sound travels farther.
Actually in the region for normal temperatures (-10 to 40) ° C sound absorption decreases with temperature.
Thank you for correcting me on that.
The site you posted contains information that indicates that sound attentuation varies with relative humidity, as well as temperature, ground effects, wind effects, etc.
Density affects sound, in that sound propagation requires a medium (unlike light, which does not require a medium through which to travel). An example of the effect of the density of the medium is the traveling of sound waves through the water.
SFU's website also points out that cold air near the earth surface with a layer of warm air above it (an inversion) will propagate sound farther, due to the effect on the sound wave (bending).
I should add that the speed of light also varies depending on the medium it travels through. However, in space, or in a vacuum, there is no sound at all.
SFU's website also points out that cold air near the earth surface with a layer of warm air above it (an inversion) will propagate sound farther, due to the effect on the sound wave (bending).
There are two effects present in the attenuation of sound intensity with distance from its source. You mentioned absorption, which is the conversion of mechanical energy into heat.
The greater effect is due to sperical dispersion or the well known 1/r2 effect. No energy is lost (or created). It is simply spread over a larger area. However, the sound axis channel effect that you described permits cylindrical dispersion. This means that the intensity attenuation goes as 1/r.
This effect is more pronounced in the ocean. It was the use of such channels that permitted propogation and detection of sound waves from Lisbon to the Bahamas. Needless to say, such anomolies play an important part in the detection and "hiding" of submarines. Knowledge of them and ways to predict their existence is highly classified.
"This effect is more pronounced in the ocean. It was the use of such channels that permitted propogation and detection of sound waves from Lisbon to the Bahamas. Needless to say, such anomolies play an important part in the detection and "hiding" of submarines. Knowledge of them and ways to predict their existence is highly classified."
Yes, correct, though the basic science is not.
Submarine crews try to take advantage of "layering" of different water temperatures (thermoclines) and other conditions to try to hide from potential pursuers. The sources of sound traveling through heterogeneous regions is more difficult to track down.
Thank you for your illuminating and elegant posts on this subject.
On occasion, I can hear the horns of trains on the LIRR Montauk line from my house, even though I'm at least five miles north of the line.
At night, from my mother's house in Florida, it's possible to hear not just the horns from the freights on the FEC line two miles away, but the rumbling of the cars as well.
1. I grew up on E 24th St. in Sheepshead Bay which is ten blocks from the Brighton Line, and I was able to hear the trains (at times) loud and clear. I remember often hearing them in the morning when I left for school. (My school was in the other direction on Nostrand Ave.)
2. Yeh, in Miami Beach (which has no trains) I was able to hear the FEC trains across the bay (Biscayne) in Miami (which run near N. Miami Ave.) The sound would only travel in the winter months. Miami Ave. to Miami Beach is at least five miles (in a straight line).
Down here the NJT AC line traces an arc about 4 or 5 miles in radius around my home in it's transition from the north-south line to the Del-air Bridge to the line that runs along the PATCO line and continues to AC in that same basic direction. The closest the line gets to my house is 3 3/4 miles south of me, where the PATCO and AC line duck under 295 and the NJTP. The closest grade crossing on the AC line is Utica Ave in Haddonfield, just before the AC line (recently split from PATCO, just a few hundred yards back) leaps the Cooper River. Now I know for a fact that I have heard what could only be horns from NJT trains at that crossing, they do not sound right, nor do they come at the right times (weekends and nights as well as midday, PATCO runs no-pax specials in the mornings and afternoons to make up for a lack of Philly storage space, and they blow their horns at every station) to be PATCO trains. Also I have heard the 12:50am out of Philly, as well as the 12:45am out of AC, mostly for the reasons that RoninBayside was kind enough to post, I suppose it could be trucks on the highway (which is just 3/4 mile away), but the tone really doesn't sound right.
Back when I lived in Chicago my house was like 100 yards at most from the Chicago Northwestern Northwest Line, running from Chicago up to Janesville WI. Daytime meant lots of Metra commuter trains and maybe two midday freight trains, while nighttime saw the Metras turn in for the night, and maybe 2 to 4 freights coming out. The line was dead straight, not a kink or turn for maybe 20 miles in each direction. Those freights sound would carry for miles, echoing off the pretty much empty surroundings and slight river valley that the Fox River had dug for itself. I actually figured the distance out, a friend from school staying for the weekend with a relative who lived on the south side of barrington, nearly the same distance from the tracks as I, IM'd me that there was a northbound freight coming, I walked outside to take a listen, and heard the 645s growling, he was almost 6 miles away and I heard the same train that he had. It was night, almost 1 am, and absolutely still, not a breeze to be felt, very good conditions to hear something over great distances in any direction.
Here at Drexel, I can miss 4 EMD or GE SD70MACs or C44-9Ws if the buildings get in the way. I can be on the far side of Disque Hall, halfway between 32nd and 33rd, less than 1000 yards from the high line, and I will completely miss the sound of a passing freight, until I step out onto market and am surprised to see the rear-most locomotive duck behind the PPA's building.
I guess it is wholely possible that if the conditions were right, and there were no buildings to block the sound, or you had a clear line of sight with the train, you may have heard a train on the LIRR main.
>>>I guess it is wholely possible that if the conditions were right, and there were no buildings to block the sound, or you had a clear line of sight with the train, you may
have heard a train on the LIRR main. <<
It must have been. Where I am in Flushing, there are a couple of hills and valleys between here and Jamaica. But what I heard had to be from the main line.
Also, in my room, when the train goes by on the PW branch, I hear it loud and clear; the station is in view from my room in winter. It's weird because there's at least a quarter to half mile, abt 3 avenues and 5 streets, from my house to the Broadway station.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I can clearly hear freight trains ten miles away.
How can I tell it is ten miles away.
Well, I can hear when it whistles for the grade crossings, and there aint all that many of them out here. And I can hear the locomotives for many minutes before I hear them whistle for the first grade crossing west of Taylor which is Seven Miles west of where I am.
But then of course, we do not have any city sounds to drown out the trains.
One time several summers ago I heard a WHISTLE instead of the horn, and looked up to see 8449 pulling a passenger train through town. Had I checked the papers, I would have known of its pending transit, and would have been at the wayside with camera in hand.
Elias
It's quite open and quiet where I am in Suffolk, but still not as much as a real rural area. In rural areas, the sound seems to travel farther because there are not as many houses, etc I guess to block the noise. I had a friend that used to live in Vermont, and I would hear the freight trains from quite a few miles away in the middle of the night. The sound seems to carry different in rural areas.
Back when I lived in Middle Village, I remember hearing the sounds of either a freight train or a LIRR train from my house. The LIRR tracks are about 2 miles from my house while a set of freight tracks (isn't there a set of train tracks that runs through Glendale, Queens?) is about...3-4 miles away?
Actually in middle village there is the NYCRR tracks that run right next to the M tracks, and just south of the Metropolitan M station is the LIRR tracks that do run right through there, and through Glendale behind the cemetery.
When I used to live in Brightwaters. we could hear the trains on the LIRR Mainline in Deer Park/Brentwood....and the Montauk line trains we could hear out to Great River. The horns used to carry quite a ways.
The horns used to carry quite a ways.
Yup, but some knucklehead in a car 20 FEET from the crossing NEVER HAS A CLUE!
Elias
I love hearing train sounds across rivers and bays. You can hear trains in New Jersey from many spots, including Staten Island, Manhattan and even Brooklyn. Or taking a ferry ride and hearing the trains passing behind you, the sounds particulary clear on cold nightime crossings. Makes me want to follow, see where the train goes.
From outside my house I can hear the train horns on the NJCL, which at its closest point is about 2.5 miles away as the crow flies. Sometimes the horns are faint, other times they are quite clear (usually at night when there is less ambient noise); don't think I've ever heard the sound of the train itself though.
There is a Conrail branch (connects with the NJCL at Red Bank) that passes within 1/2 mile of my house; I can hear the horn anywhere in the house and the actual train sounds if I'm upstairs and the air conditioner isn't running.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Under the right conditions, weird things happen - I could hear I-84/I-91 from the University of Hartford campus at 3am, easily. On the flip side, walking between my apartment and the Stop and Shop, right next to I-84, there would be spots were I'd hear NO highway noise at all (ironically, none were behind the noise barriers that were up by my apartment, and are frankly worthless anyway).
I can hear the M-7s from quite a distance, the inverter noise carries. Same thing with the VFDs at work, I can hear the final tests on the VVVF controllers easily. Heck, I can hear my antique color TVs hunting for the horizontal on warmup, RCA based designs make a weird almost musical noise as they come up. Often when I'm working on a TV, I can tell if the sync's right simply by listening.
Some noises carry, some don't, and it depends on the weather, temperature, wind, etc...
Stephen Baumann's hyperlink talks about frequency of sound as an important independent variable.
I'm about a half mile from the LIRR Montauk Branch, and can usually hear the trains quite well, although it depends on the weather. Actually, I can hear the eastbounds better than the westbounds because the diesel end is much louder than the cab end which has M1 like horns. Before they got new trains, I heard much better in both directions, and could sometimes even tell if it was GP38, MP15, or an F! Sometimes at night when I can't sleep, I can even here the train stop at the station in the middle of the night, give two quick blasts as it starts up, and hear the rumbling of the engines. It is quite relaxing hearing the train in the distance. It was much nicer though in the days of the GP38-2's, those things really roared when they started up at the station.
STORY in todays Daily News, detailing unlimited card rates and more.
Peace,
ANDEE
Bring it on. I am ready for this.
The Fun pass should be raised to $5 not $6 or $7 dollars to be inline with the fare increase. I dont think the fun pass fare should go up 50% or 75% more then its current price. Anyone agree with me here?
Currntly the Fun Pass is $4.00 meaning that if you use it 4 times for initial fares ($6.00) you will save $2.00. 4 times use is when you really start to save (OK at 3 times you save 50 cents)
If the MTA stays along that thinking then they will probably make the new FP $6.00 so that you would still save $2.00 with a 4 time use. If you used it only 3 times then you would save nothing.
They could go to $7.00 but I can't see them going only to $5.00.
You're forgetting about the 10% bonus. A $4 Fun Pass is worthwhile, but only slightly so, over three rides on a $15 PPR.
To continue that policy, a PPR should be $5 or $5.25.
But I don't think NYCT wants to continue that policy. The Fun Pass is too good a deal.
This may (or may not) even be another example of city-suburb warfare. Suburban commuters who use the subway most likely use it at every commute, so they buy 30-day unlimiteds (at a further discount, yet, if they're from the east or north), and get the now-improved savings. Suburban noncommuters don't use the subway much at all, and when they do, it's probably for only two rides per day. It's tourists and noncommuting city residents -- especially city residents without cars -- who find the Fun Pass most useful. Why should anyone care about tourists or city residents without cars?
Incidentally, where do the MTA board members live? How often do they use facilities belonging to each of the MTA's agencies? (Why do I have a nagging feeling that they use B&T more than all others combined? Notice how much smaller the B&T toll increase is than any of the fare increases.)
(The Fun Pass is too good a deal.)
I'm afraid you're right. Probably NYCT is getting killed by smart New Yorkers realizing how much they can save by using Fun Passes on their multi-errand days, and individual rides the rest of the time.
Currently with a fun pass you never have to spend for more than 3 rides in a day. So a weekly rarely makes sense for me, since I don't have to ride every day. With the weekly going up a bit and the Fun Pass a lot, I'll be stuck paying for more weeklies and more individual fares.
I think the current pricing scheme makes a lot of sense. It's the closest we can get to an off-peak discount without implementing an off-peak discount. Someone who rides only twice a day probably rides only during rush hours, and a PPR is still cheapest. Only someone who rides at least three times per day (or per weekday) does the unlimited make sense, and at least one of those rides is probably off-peak. (No, it's not perfect. Someone who commutes every day off-peak can't claim the discount, and a Fun Pass isn't very valuable to someone whose waking hours are 8pm to noon.)
In Boston, the equivalent of a Fun Pass (it's call the Visitor's Passport here) is $6, 6x the cost of a single ride. So it takes seven rides to pass the break-even.
You note that it is called the VISITORS passport. Does that mean that residents are not allowed to buy it?
Peace,
ANDEE
Oops, it's the BOSTON VISITOR PASS. Anyone can buy it, but it's only available at certain locations, such as major stations, some hotels, and tourist centers.
The Boston Visitor Pass is valid for unlimited travel on the subway, local bus and inner harbor ferry.
-One day pass - $6.00
-Three day pass - $11.00
-Seven day pass - $22.00
Interestingly, the MBTA now sells commuters a "Weekly Combo Pass" for $12.50.
Here's the whole pricing structure.
How many people is it good for? In Toronto they have a 7.00 CDN pass that is good for 2 adults and 3 kids or 1 adult and 4/5 kids. The pass provides for unlimited rides all day. The TTC also provides for unlimited free transfers so you can ride it until the day you die if you never let your transfer expire.
A group pass is really what transit needs. So many times a family needs to get somewhere down town and using transit would cost something like 8x the fare. At that point they just pile into the SUV and off they go.
For example, going to the Vet for a ball game costs me $6.10 round trip. With my dad that's up to 12.20. My friend and his dad is 24.40, etc. You can see how the cost ballons. At 24.40 we might as well drive and park in a stadium lot. An Off-peak group/family pass is essential to get people out of SUV's and into transit.
Your arguments may have a point, but I just don't see this as being city-suburb warfare.
I work in midtown. Most suburbanites take the train in and walk. They ride the subway occasionally, and pay per ride. Therefore, they pay a lot more. Whereas almost every city resident has an unlimited. They get a big discount. So that part helps the commuting city residents.
In addition, commuting city residents are much more likely to take the subway more than just to commute, so their discounts are even deeper because taking the subway for errands is essentially free. Meanwhile, suburbanites have to drive, paying all the costs of car ownership (gas, insurance, depreciation, etc.)
> Who cares about city residents without cars?
Most of them commute, and get the greatest benefit under this system. Noncommuting city residents don't really benefit, true, but there's not much way to separate them from suburbanites who commute by railroad and not by subway.
As for the Fun Pass, tourists can afford the extra. Why is it suburban warfare to hurt tourists? As for noncommuting city residents, do they really bunch all their errands together in order to save money on the subway? How do they carry things? Is there hard data on this?
If you really want to save the most money and are a noncommuter (say, a domestic parent) you will do most errands without taking the subway, and when you do take it, go to an area with a lot of stores instead of shuttling around all the time. Besides, it's faster. And that is still the most efficient way.
Finally, I wonder if deeper bulk discounts might encourage more suburban commuters to take the subway, increasing ridership, revenue, and political support for the subway. Of course we ought to have enough capacity to accommodate them, which is another frequently discussed topic.
(Whereas almost every city resident has an unlimited.)
Not true. Many city residents do not need to take the subway to and from work every day. I have lived in the city of 26 years, and been gainfully employed for most of that time, and have never regularly taken the subway every day. I have worked in the suburbs, walked to work, and worked at home.
I use a fun pass whenever I have a major-errand kind of a day.
I suspect the vast majority of fun passes are used by city residents in situations similar to mine and see a nice loophole, which the MTA is about to close.
I used the Fun Pass when I was in NYC last year. My impression was that it was underpriced even then.
Elias
"The Fun pass should be raised to $5 not $6 or $7 dollars to be inline with the fare increase."
I agree with you completely. You should continue to be able to start saving money by the third ride, not the fourth. -Nick
"... But the centerpiece is the $2 bus and subway fare, which could be implemented as early as April 1 ..."
The big secret at the TA is out ! They did a pritty good job of keeping it quite since JANUARY !
mr. t,
Are the "privates" obliged to raise the base fare in sync? How is it that off-peak discounts are allowed on the "privates"?
I was on a Green Bus yesterday and I saw a notice for a fare increase on the privates. I wasn't on that long to see when. But it's there.
I guess the BOT gave the private buses a break by having the $1 off-peak fare to encourage ridership. For a dollar you can transfer to a TA bus without paying extra. It also gives me a chance to use my golden dollars.
Yesterday I stumbled onto a legal notice in the NY Post stating that the privates are petitioning to abolish the $1.00 off peak fare and have all fares consistent with those charged by NYCT.
Well, that's still to be worked out by the politians.
The TA is all set to go with it. Here the software will be put in "anticipation" of a change. There's a couple of other software changes part of the upgrade, one from August that they are just implementing now. So, likely the TA fare will go up then Mayor Mike will OK the same at the privates ... he may have already approved it, but then its still a secret ... NOT.
Mayor Rudy lowered the Express fare & added the off-peek benifit.
Mayor Mike wants the money lost from the off-peek discount. He also wanted most/all the week-end Express to go away, but was overruled by the City counsel.
Note: Folks get off-peek only if they pay cash, i.e. MCs still take $1.50 24 hours a day 7 days a week. The TA agreed to it because they thought not many would be bothered coming up with the dollar in cash (actually $2.00 for a round trip). Week-ends we see the biggest increase in cash customers.
Disclaimer: I'm NOT the spokesperson for MTA, TA or nycDOT. Just speaking for myself.
It doesn't give all the details, such as whether MTA will upgrade its software to allow you to replace a lost or stolen MetroCard, or whether a two week or one-week unlimited card will actually be introduced.
Two week cards and the like are not cost effective for the MTA unles they can Eliminate token booths.
There is no savings in reducing the number of transactions if one can not reep the savings by having less sellers of fares.
Thank all the activists at the public hearings who were a 40% TWU members and the large majority of the rest of the folks were from special interests groups. At the meeting I went to there were 5 speakers including myself that were not from a special interest group.
Instead of demanding two week cards, non-continuous 5 day unlimites and the like they screemed that college students could needed tooken booths clerks near there school
Lets subtalkers show up in force at tommorrows board meeting two week cards, replacement for lost cards etc. IF you look at it closely, two week cards, subscription metrocard etc are bad for the TWU membership. It mean less need for tooken booth clerks becuase less transactions
And this fare hike is all b/c of all of the money spent on new useless equipment such as the R142 R142A R143 Onion 7s that have still not showed up on the TA Property as of yet and New Flyer Artics. Artics I say have been the only good thing about all of the TA Purchases. Otherwise tsk tsk tsk!
#5529 M23
#8869 5 Lexington Ave Bronx Thru Express
Oh LORD
Peace,
ANDEE
You called?
:0)
And this fare hike is all b/c of all of the money spent on new useless equipment such as the R142 R142A R143 Onion 7s that have still not showed up on the TA Property as of yet and New Flyer Artics. Artics I say have been the only good thing about all of the TA Purchases. Otherwise tsk tsk tsk!
#5529 M23
#8869 5 Lexington Ave Bronx Thru Express
"Two week cards and the like are not cost effective for the MTA unles they can Eliminate token booths.
There is no savings in reducing the number of transactions if one can not reep the savings by having less sellers of fares."
That is not the primary reason two-week cards are being advocated.
The reason is that unlimited MetroCards of whatever length represent more stable, predictable income. Overall, they reduce income variability, reduce the need for token booth clerks to handle cash (because you can get them anywhere, including machines). This makes the MTA's job of cash management easier. It will also make it easier to use MetroCards, making the elimination of tokens less of a hardship on those 9% of riders who still use tokens.
The unlimited two week card also helps people who do not have $63 at one time to pay for a monthly card. This way, they can still get a card which will offer them a discount, though not as much as the monthly card.
"Thank all the activists at the public hearings who were a 40% TWU members and the large majority of the rest of the folks were from special interests groups. At the meeting I went to there were 5 speakers including myself that were not from a special interest group. "
Do you condemn them for exercising their rights to freedom of speech?
"Lets subtalkers show up in force at tommorrows board meeting two week cards, replacement for lost cards etc. IF you look at it closely, two week cards, subscription metrocard etc are bad for the TWU membership. It mean less need for tooken booth clerks becuase less transactions "
TWU members will find other jobs.
No I don't Condemn them for there rights of to freedom of speech. What ended up happening is that these special interest groups monopolized the meeting. I arrived about a half hour before the meeting started, signed up to speak and waited almost 3 hours to speak.
The special intersts groups know the ropes and pre-registered to speak. Many average people who signed up to speak ended up leaving before there turn came up when the board took their secound break at about 7 PM. The sweet lady at the signup desk gave no indication of how long the wait would be. She did not see the preregistration list.
At times it felt like a fillabuster was being conducted in congress. One guy recited poetry completely unrelated to transit. Another bus depot worker(I feel sorry for BIG AL from bustalk) took the opurtunity to more of less yell at the board. She was mad that TWU jobs would be lost with the booth closing. Another guy thought he was funny and pitched completly rediculous ideas about changing the MTA colors. From what I overheard, many of these people spoke at every public hearing.
Should have been raised to $1.75 a few years ago, then we wouldn't be seeing a fare increase to $2 until 2005.
-Hank
A fare hike to $1.75 a few years ago combined with right sizing services would have avoided a fare hike for quite some time.
It is the MTA under political pressure from the govenor and the temporary surplus that was related to one of the biggest boom time in NYC history combined with tremendous growth in telephone line tax.
Look at that beauty on the "cover" page :)
What total crap. Discounting the monthlies is exactly NOT what they sould be doing. They keep bitching that the average ride is like $1. Well then dump the discounts before you start raising the base price. All you do is screw the vast majority of people who ride the subways infrequently. Shit, $7 for a Fun Pass? There's not much point in buying one at that price.
You know, I used to keep my Fun Passes after transiting in NYC. If they cost $7 I am going to give them away b4 I go home and exit swipe as well just to SPITE those jerks.
Way to encourage transit by making it prohibitively expensive.
"What total crap. Discounting the monthlies is exactly NOT what they sould be doing."
It seems to me that some on this board seem to believe that there is something morally right about everyone paying the same price for a ride, and something wicked about letting some people pay less. The elderly, disabled and students get reduced prices, and a good thing too. All regular travellers can also get reductions now, between the unlimiteds and the 6/$10 deal. There can't be many people, not disabled, elderly, or young, who can't afford to pay out $10 in advance. What is wrong with giving regular customers a better deal?
People paying a single fare will likely be casual, infrequent visitors to NYC. They will will typically be either visiting business people being paid for by their employers, or people on vacation. Either way they will be paying out a lot on hotels, restaurants, entertainments, etc., which give much worse value for money than a $2 transit ride. That price won't deter them from using transit, though imagined dangers on the subway might. And have you noticed what Gray Line charges for its red double-decker bus tours?
Another Warrington blunder reversed:
======================================
Acela Regional Changes Name to Regional
Despite the challenges of the last year, Acela Express continues to be a
popular service. Passengers like it because it’s fast and has lots of
desirable amenities on board. Many also like Acela Regional because it
offers a good value, providing reliable service for a reasonable price.
But we know that confusion over the two names persists. Consequently,
we are going to drop the name Acela from the Regional service, and
simply call the service by one word: “Regional,” effective March 17.
Frankly, we all heard our customers. The sharing of the Acela brand
name was confusing. Change, in this case, is certainly necessary. So,
going forward, there will be the following service options in the
Northeast Corridor from Newport News, VA to Boston:
· Acela Express. Our popular premium service offers reserved
First class and Business class seating. All passengers enjoy food and
beverages in the Café Car, and make use of RailFoneâ service and
electrical outlets. First class passengers enjoy complimentary at-seat
meal and beverage service and hot towel service. Business class
passengers benefit from personal audio entertainment and adjustable
reading lamps.
· Metroliner. With all seats reserved, Metroliner passengers
traveling between New York and Washington may choose between First class
and Business class seating. All passengers have access to a Café Car,
RailFoneâ, halogen reading lights, and electrical outlets. First class
travelers are served complimentary at-seat meals and beverages.
· Regional. Passengers aboard the Regional Service will continue
to enjoy Business class and Coach class options from Boston to Newport
News. Business class passengers enjoy reserved seating and a
complimentary non-alcoholic beverage in the Café Car. The Café Car is
open to all passengers and offers a selection of food and beverages.
Electrical outlets are also available.
· The commuter services will continue to be known specifically
by their own names – the Keystone (between New York and Harrisburg) and
Clocker (serving the corridor between New York and Philadelphia) – and
offer value, convenience, and reliability.
Transitions and changes in name don’t take place overnight. Over the
next few weeks, you will see a gradual transition from Acela Regional to
Regional, in signage and other areas.
To help you assist our passengers with this transition, we will be
providing northeast stations and customer service representatives with
ticket stuffers describing the choices passengers have from Newport News
to Boston. Passengers will also read about the service options on the
Amtrak Web site and in Arrive magazine. The changes will be reflected
in the new April timetable, Solari boards and monitors in stations,
“Julie” (VRU), and ARROW.
Sometimes the mark of a good business isn’t making the best decision out
of the gate, but having the wherewithal to listen to our customers and
make changes when necessary. Please help us communicate this change and
the outstanding train services we continue to offer to our passengers.
Source: Amtrak
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Amtrak Modeling Inc. - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling!
W00T! Let's hope they bring back NE Direct!
Nice. A good move on their part.
That should have never been necessary. Northeast Direct was a fine name for what are now the Regional trains.
SuperSteel Schenectady's rebuilding of four Turboliners for service on Amtrak's New York Empire Corridor is being delayed by Amtrak's failure to deliver engines and transmissions for the trains. At a Saturday meeting of the Empire State Passengers Association, SuperSteel President Scott Mintier said that Amtrak has refused to deliver these key components, which could produce delays in the project.
Under a New York state agreement with Amtrak, the state is paying to refurbish seven high speed trains for service on New York rail lines. As part of the deal Amtrak is supposed to provide the engines and transmissions for the trainsets, which have a locomotive at each end.
Amtrak has been complaining that it doesn't have adequate funds to do little more than maintain and run existing trains. Mintier told the Times Union that the new engines would cost about $5 million. While two Turboliners have been used in tests, they have not yet started making regular runs.
Amtrak spokesman Dan Stessel said that the railroad was seeking to minimize delays on the Turboliner project. The engines Super Steel needs will be delivered soon, Stessel said, but he declined to give a specific date.
This is a complex project and there are a number of issues involving Amtrak and Super Steel and the state Department of Transportation that must be resolved, he said. Amtrak’s goal is to put the two complete Turboliners in service as quickly as possible and to move ahead the construction of the others, Stessel said.
Source: www.trainorders.com
-AcelaExpress2005 - R143 #8265
Just a minor correction for the Associated Press puffpiece that's being quoted - the STATE was supposed to give Amtrak the MONEY for those engines and transmissions and Amtrak didn't receive the money to pay for them. AP apparently didn't check that out ...
I wish to let everyone on SubTalk know that Steinway & Sons turns 150 years old today and I expect to be at Steinway Hall at 109 W. 57th St. in Manhattan today to join in on the celebration. If any SubTalkers wnat to drop by, please do so. I expect to be there.
#3 West End Jeff
The only piano maker with subway tunnels named after it :)
At first they were trolley tunnels.
And all this time I thought the pianos were named after the subway tunnel. (Could they even fit through?)
The pianos could certainly fit through the Steinway tunnel. However you might find trying to move a Steinway "D" (8' 11 3/4") concert grand lengthwise through the tunnel a bit of a tight squeeze.
#3 West End Jeff
There used to be a street pianist at 61st(?) and Broadway. He wheeled his grand piano across Broadway every day to store it in the Coliseum.
At least that's where I thought he was going. Maybe he was actually bringing it onto the subway for a ride into Queens on the 7 train.
I hope he performed for his Redbirdfull of passengers.
Hopefully the grand piano that he had wasn't a full sized concert grand since it would be difficult for one person to move it alone. Maybe he just had something like a Steinway "M" (5' 7") grand.
#3 West End Jeff
Not to mention thw worse tunnels. Aren't the Steinway tunnels the only ones made out of cast iron?
In the subway, I think yes (not sure), but PATH's are cast iron also.
Spam.
Sixty-six years old today, and seemingly all of it is sitting in your e-mail in-box (Whoops! Wrong kind of Spam -- the processed meat type actually was introduced by Hormel on this date in 1937).
Big party going on HERE at Queens Surface, and all our buses on the Q101, Q102, Q103 & Q104 were dressed in streamers ... NOT
They didn't even put the only qualified trolley operator to work :-(
ANy updates?Anything finalized?
I'm not sure yet what is happening, but according to Metro Alert, there is an incident between the Pentagon & Pentagon City Stations on the Blue/Yellow Lines---I don't know what is going on but it says a station is closed. Which One? I don't Know.
Update--It's the Pentagon Station.......more to come......
Update---At 1:35---there was a suspicious package found at the Pentagon station----trains are being allowed through the station on one level (which one I'm not sure) but they are NOT stopping....
.....more to come....
Update---At 1:35---there was a suspicious package found at the Pentagon station----trains are being allowed through the station on one level (which one I'm not sure) but they are NOT stopping....
.....more to come....
Undoubtedly, someone's forgotten lunch bag.
Or their DEPENDS.
Peace,
ANDEE
Update----2:40 p.m.----No explosives were found, now they're checking for chemicals......more to come......
After about 2-hours, the station re-opened without incident, all the chemical tests came back negative....WHEW!!!
Did the check to see if the blue strips turned yellow????
Which alert did you get? I only got one, stating that something was closed but not stating what. I figure you also went to the WMATA website though.
Anyone know the dimensions of the PRR Catenary Towers that Amtrak now uses on the NEC? I've been searching online and can't find the actual dimensions. I'm tryin to build scale models of them for 2-Rail O-Scale display.
I just picked up an Atlas-O NJ Transit ALP-44 and some Comet coaches in 2-Rail O-Scale. In my opinion, they look soooo much better than the 3-rail versions....much more to scale!!! They have scale wheels and couplers and the lower ends of the train don't swing out with the trucks like Lionel Trains. The 3-rails have scale bodies but the trucks and couplers are not to scale. Don't get me wrong...I still love the Lionel trains. =)
You might try posting this question on the Discussion Web of the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society. It wouldn't surprise me if there hasn't been an article published in the Keystone (the PRRT&HS magazine) at some point over the years... don't have my copies handy, however, to check.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanx... I posted the question but still no response. I just may have to take a field trip to one and measure it myself. =) Only problem is that the nearest ones are in NJ for me.
thank God i have a scanner now! it sure came in handy last night. i get off of the LIRR at atlantic avenue to catch a uptown 4 to Grand Central to begin my Metro North Machine operation duties. i turn on the A Division dispatcher to train channel and i hear the following:
"ATTENTION ALL ROAD CREWS, DUE TO A CONSTRUCTION ACCIDENT IN THE TIMES SQUARE AREA AND 7 AV, NORTHBOUND 1,2,3 HAVE SERVICE CHANGES. NORTHBOUND 2 WILL OPERATE VIA LEXINGTON AVENUE LINE BETWEEN NEVINS AND 149TH. NORTHBOUND 3 WILL BE TURNED AT 14TH STREET. THERE IS A 1 SHUTTLE BETWEEN CHAMBERS STREET AND SOUTH FERRY. SOUTHBOUND 1,2,3 WILL BE TURNED AT 96TH STREET. SITUATION IS EXPECTED TO LAST UNTIL 2300 HOURS. THE TIME IS NOW 2110"
upon Reaching Grand Central, my crew room is right by the shuttle passage. i see a sign displayin
NO SHUTTLE SERVICE OR 7 SERVICE TO TIMES SQUARE
ANYONE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED?
Do you ever look to see what else might be on SubTalk before you post? Here's one of at least two other threads on the subject.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The seats are all gray except for one section, where a seat is a light greenish color (the color looks like the color on station pillars at 71 Av). I suppose a section of that seat was somehow destroyed and replaced with a new one, but I don't get why that section is in green.
Green was the original color of the seats on the r-32s.
Peace,
ANDEE
No, the original color of the seats was light blue, matching the color of the interior.
According to my copy of the "Passenger Car Data Book -1947 - 1976", the R-32 seats were originally aqua. Some may consider this a shade of green while others may see it as blue. (Same as one of my bikes. The bike is TEAL. Some say green - DMV says blue)
I'd define the color more as baby blue with a touch of green. The 38, 40 and 42's had the samer color seats. The R26/27/28/29/30 had pinkish seats. Or was that color closer to salmon?
Does this mean that a seat may have been cannibalized from a Redbird (R-26-30, R33, R36) to replace a damaged seat? I see the similarities, and some of those cars did have green seats.
That second car was a Redbird (R-33, I think, but possibly not).
Nope that was an R-29 WH on the Pelham Local. Though I could be wrong. The Westinghouse R-29's were the only cars that had "white" emergancy brake stickers with red lettering. Did any one notice that?
D.
The R26/28/29/30/33's had the "coral" (I still say pink) seats originally. The R32/38/40/42's had the light blue seats.
I can't confirm what the R36's originally had, pink or blue.
The R-36's had the greyish green seats. Though I could be wrong about that too. I think pink seats would've thown off the "at the time" colorful interior.
D.
Did the R36 World's Fair cars and the R36 Main Line cars have the same seat colors?
Yes. Even though the interior walls and doors of the R-33/36 WF cars were closer in color to the R-32s than they were to the mainline IRT cars, all the seats in the R-29/33/36 cars were the same gray color, no matter whether they were MLs or WFs.
So the R29/33/36 had grey seats from the beginning? Only the R26/28's had the pink seats?
Yes. The R-29s debuted both the red paint exteriors and the blue interiors with the gray seats, but the mainline R-29/33/36 cars were painted a darker blue than the R-33WF/36WF trains. But all were given the gray seats, while the R-32s were painted roughly the same color inside as the World's Fair cars, but were given seats that matched the color of the walls. The R-38/40/42s would continue that tradition of matching the seat colors to the walls, though obviously after the R-38s the interior seat molding forms were changed (for the worse).
That's interesting. The R26/28's had the pink seats, and were manufactured by ACF. The R29/R33's had grey seats and were manufactured by St. Louis. The R27/R30's had the ACF's cars pinkish seats, yet were manufactured by St. Louis, which put grey seats in it's contemporary IRT cars.
Strange.
IIRC, the R-27-30s and the R-26/28s also shared similar floor tile patterns, which had a few darker tiles scattered among lighter colored ones on the floor. With the arrival of the R-29s, the pattern changed to where the darker color ties dominated, and were layed out along the main walking patters -- at the doors and through the middle of the cars -- while the lighter color tiles, which showed dirt more, were put on the floor alongside the car's seats.
As with the blue walls, that continued through the delivery of the R-42 cars, after which the MTA came down with a severe case of Ronanitis when it came time to draw up the interior/exterior plans for the R-44 and R-46 cars ("Damn it, we're a State Agency, and we're going to put the state seal on the walls of ever single car so people will never forget it!")
Look at the bright side: the walls are not scratch-ifitied on the R44/46. No other cars in the fleet (except the R142/143) can claim that.
R-26 and R-28 cars had coral seats.
R-29 through R-36 cars had dark gray seats.
R-32 through R-42 cars had aqua seats.
David
Is that lower photo from an R-26 or R-28? They had those puke-pink colored seats; it looks as though the grey paint has worn off.
Must've been, then. I don't have a car number or even a route number, and I can't identify the station from the photo.
Here's another shot of the car that may cause seasickness:
That's an example of what a train looks like from the eyes of a drunk......
LOL!
I'm not sure if you're referring to this photo or the photo in your previous post, but in this picture it looks like its a #6 at Brooklyn Bridge.
I concur.
Probably a leftover (non-GOHed?) seat from an R-32 or R-38. As has already been mentions, the R-26/27/28/30 trains had the salmon pink seats, while the R-29/33/36s had the gray plastic seats and the R-32/38s the light blue, all of which were interchangable between cars (and especially during the bad old days of the late 1970s, often were).
The R-40/42s also had the light blue seats, but the molding was different and wouldn't fit in the R-26 though R-38 seat frames.
They called it "CORAL".
wayne
Then aren't they turning the wrong cars into REEFS?
Well, the R26/28 have been seeing Davy Jones' locker as of late, so I guess the coral seats make nice "reefs".
wayne
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.
That's an Odd Couple Car (with hubby #3862), so having an odd seat wouldn't surprise me.
That sounds like the original (aqua) color, maybe they failed to enamel it upon GOH. Don't forget, under that dull grey lies the original 1965 aqua.
wayne
"That sounds like the original (aqua) color, maybe they failed to enamel it upon GOH."
They didn't forget to enamel any seats during the GOH. Possibly the original enameled seat was removed by vandals and a spare seat from a scrapped R-32/38 was installed so the train could be returned to service.
Bill "Newkirk"
I saw that seat the other day. South motor on the R. Sticks out like a sore thumb. The strange thing about this seat is that it really appeared to be a VIRGIN. No scratches, no foreign paint, super clean. Only Jamaica barn I suppose knows where they found it. Love that color.
How many different railroad signals are there? Are the standard ones used on the NEC? What does each of them stand for?
Two signals I distinctly remember are two, red lights across, and two green lights on the top and bottom in a diagonal slant to the right.
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Each of the "old railrodas" ie PRR, NYC, B&O etc. etc. had their own way of making signals. LIRR-PRR used to use "position Signals" where in all of the lights were a whiteish-yellow, but they were aligned up and down (clear); diagonal (restricting); and horizontal (stop) When the stop aspect was siaplayed a single separate lamp indicates that it was in gact permissible to stop and then proceed with caution, expecting to stop within your line of sight.
B&O (IIRC) used the same position scheme, but with only two lamps instead of three, but the lamps were colored (green, yellow, or red) according to the position assumed by the signal.
NYC used single searchlites, capable of displaying red, yellow, or green.The multiple heads found on these signals represented either distant signals or diverging routes, but someone else will need to fill in the details here.
Since then, railroads have been replacing the traditional signals with something else, and the workings and arrangements of these signals is unknown to me.
Elias
The B&O also had a lunar white signal at the top of the mast that would sometimes be illuminated. If it was illuminated with two green bulbs, it meant clear (run at maximum authorized speed). It the lunar white light WASN'T illuminated but the two green bulbs were lit, the signal was slow clear.
Michael
Washington, DC
Not SLOW CLEAR, SLOW APPROACH SLOW. The B&O CPL's were more were position lights in the true sence of the word. The single main head was modified by one of 6 possible market lights each in a different position in relation to the main head. The PRR system basically just replaced a colour light with bar of amber lights in a one to one correspondance.
What do you mean by signals? There are signal aspects or indications which are what a signal shows. There are the different physical styles of signal.
The signals on the NEC are colourized Pennsylvania RR Position Lights that display 16 of the 23 standard NORAC signal aspects (dwarfs displaying 2 additional ones).
you can find a list of the NORAC aspects at: http://www.eastrailnews.com/ref/norac/index.html
As for signal styles there are:
PRR Amber PL
N&W Amber PL
Amtrak Colourized PL
N&W Colourized PL
B&O CPL
NYC V-stlye target
Reading V-style target with lousange restricting head
Michagan Central small target searchlight
Generic large target searchlight
C&O large target traffic light
Southern small target traffic light
SafeTran hooded small target traffic light (aka the "hooded serpent")
CNW Horizontally mounted traffic light
Upper Quadrant 3-position Semaphores
Lower Quadrant 2-position Semaphores
Ball signals
Transit Style in-line traffic light signals
SafeTran Unilense signals
Single Unit colourlight dwarf (2 or 3 lights)
Modular dwarf signals
PRR Position Dwarf
B&O CPL dwarf
Searchlight dwarf
Stacked searchlight dwarf
PRR Position Light Pedistal signals
Penn Station "Key" Colour Light Signals
Mike summed up your types of signals rather well. Here are the NORAC signal aspects so you can research the subject on your own to answer these questions.
http://www.eastrailnews.com/ref/norac/
How frequently do freights run on the NEC? I spotted a long CONRAIL train heading towards Linden on track 1 (n/b local track). Is it only making a trip to the storage yard in Linden? Also, I am aware of a CONRAIL stop at Metuchen. Is there a company that intercepts CONRAIL material here?
Conrail Does Not Exist Anymore. Its Either NS Or CSX.
"Conrail Does Not Exist Anymore. Its Either NS Or CSX."
Incorrect. Conrail does exist, albeit not as its former self. It is a more limited joint venture operation of CSX and NS headquartered in Center City Philadelphia.
The name is Conrail Shared Assets A(something). It controls most of the former CR trackage in New Jersey and around Detriot.
Correct.
The name is Conrail Shared Assets Organization (CSAO).
I photographed a Conrail caboose which had just been uncoupled from a freight train on the NEC by Millham Tower in Trenton. I was on my way to East Trenton to photograph scrapped SEPTA Almond Joys.
Was there anything salvagable in those almond joy shells?
I couldn't tell from my vantage point. I couldn't see any more than what the photos show.
Does anyone know the reason for this joint venture, as opposed to each RR operating under it's own name.
There would have been places where either CSX or NS would have had a monopoly had either of them obtained Conrail's property, so to maintain competition, CSAO was formed so that both railroads still operate in those areas.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Peace,
ANDEE
Thats wrong, Conrail still exists.
For those who ride Acela Express (or others), take advantage of this offer by riding the new 8:30p departure from Washington to New York. The train is #2118 and will last until April 25, 2003. The fare is $59 one-way from DC to NY, and cheaper for intermediate stops. For those who used to see Acela Express fares as being too much, here's a chance for you.
What happened to these cars?
AND... What is happening in the piucture?,(it is between an arnine and a lowv)
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i6000/img_6141.jpg
If those are the two revenue collector cars ex #66 & #67, they were both scrapped.
Bill "Newkirk"
Just E of the 69/Fisk station on the 7, the line crosses over the BQE and a single track rail line. This track is run-down and in sorry shape, with trash, debris and litter everywhere. Who uses this track? I think it is CSX.
That line goes over the Hell Gate Bridge, and was known as the NY Connecting Railroad a long time ago. It goes through Queens, then Brooklyn, and finally winds up in Bush terminal in Brooklyn's waterfront. Follow it by using a map of the five boroughs.
Part of the line is owned by New York & Atlantic Raulway and I remember was, in the films, "Sweet and Lowdown" and "The Yards".
NY&A owns no rails of its own. MTA/LIRR still ownes all the tracks.
Sorry, I got confused.
The stretch from Hell Gate Bridge to Fresh Pond is either CSX or NS (whichever is the successor to Conrail - does anyone know exactly which one)? From Fresh Pond to Bay Ridge it is the NY & Atlantic.
The stretch from Hell Gate Bridge to Fresh Pond is either CSX or NS (whichever is the successor to Conrail - does anyone know exactly which one)? From Fresh Pond to Bay Ridge it is the NY & Atlantic.
Until Fremont (Fresh Pond Jucntion) the line belongs to CSX, formerly Penn Central, formerly still - The New Haven Railroad.
The rest of the line to Bay Ridge, although used by the NY&A still is owned by the LIRR.
I think NY&A just operates. LIRR owns the track.
CSX owns the track Looks like second track may be added? theres a bunchof brand new ties laying around with the fresh smell of tar on em AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! also CP and P&W also use this line CP 3 times a week P&W seasonal summer mostly.
It's operated as part of the Bay Ridge line. NY& A calls the entire line the "connecting railroad".
Does this line go over a viaduct that passes over Queens Blvd? That viaduct doesn't seem to be in good shape as trees have started to grow along it.
On Queens Blvd area there are 3 RR viaducts that cross over. One is the LIRR Main Line, the 2nd is the LIRR going to Port Washington and the 3rd is the old NY Connecting RR which is the one we're talking about in this thread.
Ok thanks.
Isn't the Connecting RR's viaduct the most elaborate and ornate one? I seem to remember the city forcing whomever owned the line in the 30's to build it that way.
While we're on this subject, what is that track part of? The track runs in a submerged trench and the 2/5 cross over it after rising from underground north of 3rd Ave. Part of Metro North?
I think it's the old connection to the old IRT 3rd Ave El.
No, it's an unelectrified single track line, like the Bay Ridge LIRR.
That is the old CR Port Morris Branch Line which connects Metro North RR north of the Melrose Station to the Oak Point Freight Yard on the North East Corridor. Prior to the opening of the Oak Point Connector around the Harlem River, freights travelled this way.
-Stef
Ahhh, thanks. I guessed it was some sort of connection to the Oak Park Yard, but wasn't sure.
It is the Port Morris Branch of the old NY Central.
It dead ends at the River for the one time Caf float ops of the NY Central.
It was electrified (3rd rail) up until the late 60's.
The MTA is really pushing for the death of the token, and once the new fare hike is in place, wave bye to the token, so pick up your token, save it, polish it. If you don't have 1, get 1. Hopefully the token wont die with this oncoming fare hike.
Yo, Christopher! OT (my only token is from my first visit in 1969), but now that I have yr attention, did u get my email? I have the subway map u need for the SAS -- .pdf format, can alter at will.
The Transit Museum my start selling them individually, or as part of various trinkets...
May 1st? The fare hikes begin a month earlier than that, if approved tomorrow. -Nick
Why would you say that? Most transit systems don't bring out a new token w/ each fare increase. The money lost from hoarding is negligible.
New York played the game for years. Dime-sized, Nickel-sized, QUARTER sized with or without "Y hole" ... and folks'd hoard 'em only to have to cash them in anyway. Although there was a period of time where they went back and forth between two of them almost every other year and dang if there weren't folks keeping a stash. :)
Dear Transit workers,
I am still trying to find out what happens to all of the discarded MetroCards people put in the box below the "readers."
Are they just thrown out by the station cleaners?
I need a bunch of them, and would like to know what department to contact.
Help!
Subway grrl
There are magnents under the lid of the box. It erases any value or infomation that is on it. The computer can still read the card. But the infomation is usually scattered like crazy. They are supposed to be thrown out. Sometimes people do not put the cards in the box. They jam them in the slot or leave them on top of the reader.
If you need a bunch of empty MetroCards, go to the nearest term. or local/express station, and you can pick them up off the floor all over the place. People can't exert themselves to carry them to the box or garbage cans. I've even seen them on the roadbed...
My problem is, I need a constant and reliable source!
Whose job is it at the TA, to empty the boxes? Is it the station cleaners? Are they ever recycled by the TA?
I want to contact the department that deals with the ones people put
in the boxes?
Help!
Cards are taken out of the bozes and put in the garbage. You want to keep a card? you can ask the cleaner for a few. But if you want a card that is constant and reliable, get it at the booth. Keep in mind a Pay-Per-ide card can be refilled.
I think she means she wants a "constant and reliable" source of used metrocards (which are free). Maybe this has to do with her NYC Subway Lines product line?
---Brian
What does she want the cards for?
Yes, you got it!
I want to sell my Subway Bags with an empty MetroCard in the MetroCard
pocket, so folks can see what the pocket is for. I also have another
idea for using them I am working on.
So, the routine is to put them in the trash? I wonder who I could talk with to authorize collecting them for me. I am an official licensee, and royalties from sales of my product go to support the
NY Transit Museum...
They don't already come with an empty card in them? I thought they did. Oh well. I've kept an empty card in there for the last two years and no one has stolen it yet.
Whenever we can find them, we sell them that way. But often we run out. We need the right connection.
Who can help?
Subway grrl
P.S. I recommend people just turn the bag flap toward their body to
avoid theft - plus, that velcro closure is vicious... and LOUD!
Thanks for buying a bag!!
Have you tried contacting the NYCTA PR dept?
I would ask them first.
Or you can buy $3 Metrocards from the outside vendors (stores) and put those cards in the little windows on your bag. You might have to charge $3 more per bag!
Nobody wants to pay the extra money!
They do steal the empty ones out of the pockets in the stores though!
Neither the P.R. dept, nor the Transit Museum seems to know anything
about this. I had a source for a while. I paid 3 cents per card.
When he retired, I never could find another source. (He was the guy who sold them to the outside vendors, for the MTA.)
The frustration is how segregated the information flow is there sometimes! That's why I am asking for help here!
Subway grrl
Surprising that they didn't have a lead on that. All the token booths get bunches of new empty Metrocards. There must be a way to get them through the TA. Good luck!
Perhaps the office of public relations could put you in touch with the manufacturer of the cards. I mean, they don't have a value until the station agent places a value on it, so perhaps you might be able to get sent 1,000 blank cards directly from the manufacturer.
I actually asked McDonalds for a bunch of empty french fry baskets to use in my daughter's camp costume last year, and they gave me an entire sleeve. She won 2nd place going as a basket of french fries!
--Mark
>>> I mean, they don't have a value until the station agent places a value on it, so perhaps you might be able to get sent 1,000 blank cards directly from the manufacturer. <<<
Hey Mark, how about sending me 100 of your blank checks. They have no value until you fill in the numbers and sign them. :-)
Tom
Touche!
--Mark
You need to make a friend at your local bus depot.
When the fleet comes back the "Capture Bin" is full of MCs & Transfers. So, you would need someone, on their lunch hour, to go thru the fleet & empty the bins.
The friend would be a Station Agent with the key to the box.
Officially I'll bet they say "NO" :-(
You want to recycle used MetroCards, whereas the TA justs dumps them in the garbage. You might talk to a reporter, or someone in public relations at the MTA. I'm sure the head honchos would just LOVE being called pro-garbage.
*Sigh* Instead of running around for used ones, simply use a paper or cardboard insert of a fake Metrocard. It makes more sense. Though if you run senseless all around NYC, be my guess.
Ohhh. I see a new fashion statement coming from subway grrl. Will it be a dress made of real MetroCards?
Giggle, perhaps I should do a dress made of tokens instead. One would
have to work out for quite a while to be able to walk in it though!
Metrocard earrings!
Peace,
ANDEE
Token earrings would make better sense... :)
I have sent you an E-mail with a contact name.
Peace,
ANDEE
LEO SAYS GER!
The MT Metrocards go the Empty A.
There is some sort of work being done just before the manhattan-bound plat of the Jay St. station. It looks like some sort of new structure is being built. Anyone know what it is? Could it be the new interlocking machine replacing the lost bergen one? Any answer appreciated. thanks.
At the north end they're rebuilding the tower. If that will replace the tower at Bergen, I don't know.
We alway's make some fun posts here on Subtalk, anything from trivia to equipment. I figure I try to make a little some thing different for a change.
Welcome to the TRAINMASTER SCENARIO game. What I will do is create a situation, and you will create the G.O. or reroute based on your opinion, expertise, and imagination. But remember, you are the trainmaster of the following division. Use any means to keep your trains running, or most importantly, keep passengers on the move. Here's your first scenario. Good luck SubTalkers.
BMT Southern Division
Location: DeKalb Ave
Situation:
A massive summer thunderstorm appears out of nowhere around 16:35. Lightning strikes have shorted out signals, switches and power to the Sea Beach, West End, and Brighton Lines. Rush Hour service includes trains from Nassau St, Broadway via tunnel and bridge, and 6 Ave via bridge. Following routes are as follows:
D 6 Ave Exp to Coney Island via Brighton Local
Q Broadway Express via Brighton Exp to Brighton Beach
M Nassau St Local to Coney Island via Brighton Exp
B 6 Ave Exp to Coney Island via West End-4 Ave Local
R Broadway Local to 95 St via 4 Ave Local
N Broadway Exp to Coney Island via Sea Beach Skip-Stop-4 Ave Exp
W Broadway Local to Coney Island via Sea Beach Skip-Stop-4 Ave Exp
By your gut instinct, plan your reroutes and detours, whatever it takes. You are the BMT Trainmaster.
HAVE FUN!!
>B and D trains turned at 34/6 and sent back north.
>J serice normal. M trains turned at Myrtle-B'way or Chambers St.
>N and R service turned at Whitehall or Canal Sts and sent back north.
>R service in Brooklyn running from 95/4 to Pacific St and customers advised to transfer to IRT or Transfer at 9 St to transfer to F.
>Q, W, D, N and B service in Brooklyn suspended. If shuttle service can be set up, do it. On extended headways and depending the limits of the outage Q/D service Stillwell to Atlantic Ave or Prospect Park. N, W or B service shuttle from Stillwell to 59/4 or 36/4. Customers are advised to take the F line or the IRT 2,3,4, and 5 service. Expect delays.
Turn B & D at 34/6 back north.
M train runs to 95st.
N/R/W/Q service halted at brooklyn. N/R/W trains turn at Pacific and 36st (alternate service possible? maybe like every other train to ease the load). Customers urged to use IRT. All leftover buses at all brooklyn, queens, and manhattan bus depots are sent to Brooklyn. Depending on how many buses are available, shuttle them on the downed lines.
Let's just hope that doesn't happen.
In case of such an outage, would there be any service at Dekalb?
I actually based this on the 1992 December nor'easter where I was stranded at Kings Highway on the Brighton line. While there was no lightning involved, the only line that was running was the F Culver line. Majority of BMT Southern Division was out. At this time, I was a sophmore at James Madison HS, and thank goodness I had very good knowledge of subway travel. I had to walk from Quentin Road and Bedford Ave to McDonald Ave and Kings Highway in the wind-driven rain. Not easy with a backpack full of textbooks and a looseleaf binder that had gotten damp from all the rain. I was afraid at the time to buy a Jansport bag because at the time, they were being stolen from students at an alarming rate for no apparent reason. And those bags have the best waterproofing around. Didn't buy a Jansport until Junior Year. By that time, I was huge, and wasn't afraid of anyone or any weapon they might have on them.
well for radical, you can have all 6th av trains diverted to to the culver, or fulton
nassau street-broad street
broadway train turning at dekalb or whitehall, canal maybe too
It looks like we have a trainmaster here. You are the only one at this time to mention the reroute of 6 Ave trains via Culver.
F trains would be running over Culver anyway. I would assume IND service was not affected by the summer storm. B and D service coming from the Bronx would be turned at 34/6 or maybe 2nd Ave and sent back north. If you tried to send all that to Culver via the F line there would be congestion.
(B) terminates at W4th St before heading back North
(D) switched to 6th Avenue Local and diverted to CI via Culver
(M) terminates at 36th St (via 4th Avenue Express) before heading back North
(N) terminates at Whitehall St before heading back North
(Q) No Service
(R) Unchanged
(W) No Service
Kind of a tough one here. Remember, you are trying to keep rush hour service running.
All the posts were great. Here would be my solution:
B service would terminate at 2 Ave*, D trains would run along Culver Line with F to Coney Island to supplement Brighton and Sea Beach trains. Requires help from IND Trainmaster.
Q service may possibly be turned at Prospect Park if the outage doesn't affect the interlocking here. If that isn't possible, all Q service will be suspended and passengers will be advised to use the IRT Nostrand Ave line which is not really a long distance from some Brighton Line stations. Franklin Shuttle will be closed as a safety precaution.
M service suspended between Chambers St and Coney Island.
N service operates to 95 Street-Fort Hamilton via 4 Ave local
W service operates between Ditmars Blvd and Canal St, relaying on lower level City Hall tracks.
R service unaffected.
Grand St station closed.
All Manhattan Bridge service suspended.
Shuttle Bus service from Flatbush Ave station on 2 and 5 to serve Brighton stations from Ave H to Stillwell.
Shuttle Bus to serve West End and Sea Beach lines from 9 Ave station. Most likely, this area will be unaffected, but you never know. Shuttle train will run between 36 Street and 9 Ave. If unable to, buses will start from 36 St and 4 Ave.
Free transfers to any intersecting bus route from Culver Line stations that intersect with other lines e.g. Ave U B3 bus connects with Sea Beach, Brighton lines' Ave U station and 25 Ave station on West End line.
* No V trains. Line was discontinued.
-Terminate en-route Rs at Whitehall, W at Canal St (relay @ City Hall) and M at Chambers.
-Send the N through the tunnel via 4 Av to 95 St. Local stops in Brooklyn.
-Terminate the B at 2nd Avenue.
-Send the D via local to 59th Street (transfer to F @ 9th St for Coney Island). Turn trains around by switching to express track, wrong-rail north up to 36th Street, then switch back over, run express northbound (is this possible? maybe there're marker signals)
-Send Q trains to 36th Street/4th Ave (express)
I'm not sure about the wrong-railing south on the northbound express tracks. Check out my solution. Also remember that you are handling rush hour traffic.
I figured the BMT crisis mentioned above was quite the tough one. But I have seen some good trainmaster skills here. Let's move on with Scenario II:
IRT Division
West Side Lines
Location: Chambers Street
Friday afternoon about 17:05. Southbound 3 train made up of 10 R62A cars dies just north of the Wall Street station. At the same time, an emergency brake application occurs on a Northbound 2 train at Hoyt Street in Brooklyn on a 10 car train of R142's. While enough impatience is occuring amongst the straphangers, the gap fillers at South Ferry malfunction in the closed position, yet the gap signal holds at a steady red. Repair crews are stranded in traffic and trains are backed up as far as 14 Street. And to add a little spice, the crossovers at Chambers St are being rebuilt.
Let's see the IRT Trainmaster come out of you on this one. If BMT was tough, try this one!
My response:
1 is turned at Times Square, use downtown express track at 34th st for layup
2 is diverted to 4/5 lines from Atlantic to 149th/GC in both directions.
3 is turned at 34th st/Penn Station, use Uptown express track for layover.
every other 4 train in Brooklyn goes to New Lots
suspend all #9 trains
If I was the trainmaster at Times Square tower, I'd expect my counterpart at Grand Central Master to reroute all 4 trains to New Lots or Utica. But I would have 1 trains from 242/VC go south and turn at 14 St or Rector St.
(1)(9) suspended between 14th St and South Ferry
(2) some trains re-routed via Lexington Avenue Line (but it is 17:05), others terminate at 34/7
(3) suspended between 34th St and New Lots
(4) extended to New Lots in place of (3), local South of Atlantic Avenue
(5)<5>(6)<6>(7)<7> unchanged
Why suspend 1 service south of 14/7? The blockage is south of Chambers St. Have alternate 1 trains turned at 14/7 or at Rector St. Of course 3 service would be suspended in Brooklyn. But that is I'd expect my counterpart in Brooklyn to do.
Westside IRT service on extended headways. Dependant on how service can be turned. Customers advised to use the IRT or BMT service. All 2 trains rerouted over the 5 line from the Bronx to Brooklyn in both directions. 3 Trains run 148/Lenox to Chambers St. With the crossover at Chambers being OOS, have the southbound 3 trains turn at 42 and go back north. 1 trains run 242/VC to Rector St. If the repair crews are stranded in traffic, get another crew. Call Police on 6-wire to help in crowd control.
Hook down stop arm on gap filler signal to allow trains use of the loop. 1 Trains bypass South Ferry for duration.
3 train at Wall is discharged, S/B train at Fulton is discharged, keys up to rear of disabled 3, adds IRON and AIR ONLY and pushes disabled train to New Lots Yard. Any trains south of 14 St stack up, trains north of 14 turn at 14 or 34. 3 service suspended both directions. When disabled consist clears Wall St interlocking, stacked trains allowed to turn back north at Wall St. Alternate 4 trains extended to New Lots.
Northbound 2 trains sent north via Lex. N/B 3 trains south of Atlantic turned on spur at Nevins. BIE should take no more than 20 minutes to find and reset - two 2 trains re-routed, one 3 turned back south before problem on N/B track clears. Nevins Tower makes announcements to use M, N, R, Q, W for Manhattan due to service delays.
I'll assume that the two stalled trains can't be moved and that the malfunctioning stoparm can't be hooked down.
1: Skip-stop suspended. Most trains run to Rector, relaying south of the station. Others run express from 72 to 42 (SB only) and terminate on the NB express track at 34.
2: SB normal. NB via East Side from Nevins to 149-GC. A separate single-track shuttle runs between Fulton and Chambers on the NB track to give NB passengers access to the West Side.
3: 148-LT to 96 only, turning on the NB express track.
4: Increased headways, to make room for 2. Bronx passengers directed to B/D.
5: Diamond-5 service to Nereid suspended (but NB trains to Dyre still run express in the Bronx) to make room for 2 in Manhattan. All trains diverted to New Lots, via local in Brooklyn -- transfer to/from 2 for Flatbush service.
C: Decreased headways, to carry spillover from 1/2/3/9. If necessary, terminate the extras at 2nd Avenue.
D: Express service reversed in the Bronx -- NB local and SB express -- to accomodate displaced 4 passengers at local stops.
The dominant flow on the Q in the afternoon rush is SB, so it should be able to accomodate displaced NB IRT passengers with no changes.
Oh, sorry, I thought the dead 3 train was on the NB track. (I wondered why you needed two blockages on the same track.)
That makes the Chambers-Fulton shuttle even more important.
You guys are getting the hang of it. Very creative stuff here. I had just realized that I should have used the "Desk trainmaster" for these scenarios, but you guys get the idea. At how I see things here, you guys would make excellent trainmasters for NYCTA.
Here's the final one fellas. Good luck.
IND Division
Location: Jay Street-Borough Hall
G.O. #123.4 was issued for the weekend inspection of the Rutgers Street tube, requiring F trains both N/B and S/B to run through the Cranberry St tube via the A line to West 4 St. 2 work trains occupy the north Rutgers tube at this time at 13:20. South tube will be inspected the following day. Around 14:00, a smoke condition due to a track fire on the BMT tracks at Fulton Street cause the Broadway-Nassau platform to fill up with smoke. The smoke travels to the Eastside IRT platforms as well as the Westside IRT platforms. But the smoke becomes more intense at Bdwy-Nassau and moves north to Chambers and South into the tube towards High Street. Use your best judgement on this one.
To add some pepper on this, we will follow the current subway service with the north side of the Manhattan Bridge closed as well as the Stillwell rebuilding project.
Have fun on this one, and good luck!
Since the area affected on the BMT side is closed (no weekend J service at Fulton or Broad) we can try this plan
East Side IRT:
ALL SERVICE ENDS AT Brlyn Bridge, use City Hall loop, run all 4 and 5 trains on local track from 125 to BB. #4 in Brooklyn runs frm Bowing Green to Brooklyn, issue Blocks at Bowling Green. Layup the #3 trains in Brooklyn on express track to Franklin, as #4 runs lcal to New Lots
West Side IRT:
#2 turns at Chambers, #3 turns at 34th st-Penn station, #2 runs local from 96th st to 14th st
A and C service ends at Utica Ave from Queens In Manhattan, discharge all C trains and have the A run local from 59th to West 4th st only. Discharge at West 4th st, run lite to 2nd Ave, relay then run lite ac to West 4th st, local to 207th on regular route.
Request special approval from IND Southern Div to run F trains S/B thrugh Rutgers (cannot do N/B because of work trains). N/B F trains use G crosstwn tracks from Bergen to QP.
J and M service is not affected. As a precautionary measure, since the smoke condition may spill over to Cortlandt St, have R and W run over Bridge.
Cortlandt St will not be affected, too far away. The other divisions are for mentioning the scenario only. You are the IND trainmaster who should only solve the IND situation. The F via Crosstown was a good move. However, you posted it for northbound moves only. How about the southbound trains?
Overall, you did very well.
Your score(1-100)
92
Suspend the GO. It's only an inspection; get those work trains out of the way. Then start running all A, C, and F trains via Rutgers (A local south of 59 -- any stray expresses terminate at Canal). The E can probably continue to run to WTC; if not, turn on the spur track south of Canal.
I assume the smoke at the two IRT stations is too thick to allow trains to run through. Here's how I'd handle the IRT:
1: No changes.
2N: Bronx to Chambers, turning on the SB express track. If possible, Park Place is served by a single-track shuttle on the NB track.
2S: Atlantic to Flatbush, via Brooklyn express. Wall, Clark, and Hoyt are closed.
3N: 148-LT to South Ferry.
3S: No service. Any SB 3 trains stranded south of Fulton run in service to New Lots. NB 3 trains south of Atlantic turn there and run light to New Lots. NB 3 trains between Atlantic and Fulton stay in service as far as they can and then wait wherever they are for the condition to clear.
4N: Bronx to Brooklyn Bridge.
4S: Wall to New Lots, via Brooklyn local.
5N: Bronx to Brooklyn Bridge.
5S: No service. If one 5 train is stranded south of Fulton, lay it up on the inner South Ferry loop. If more than one 5 train is stranded, run them up the West Side to the yard.
6: No changes.
Not bad at all. That's the way to go. You have the expertise of being a trainmaster. Just as a note, this scenario, you are the IND trainmaster. BMT and IRT have to fend for themselves. Only solve your IND services. But you did good. Not many would think to suspend the GO.
Job well done.
Your score(1-100)
98
Talk about 'never gonna happen', heh. For the record, smoke doesn't just spread like that, but let's play along on this one. I'm assuming that ur point is to make the Fulton st/bdwy-nass station unusable.
IRT-
(1)-no change
(2)/(3)-Bronx/uptown to 42nd st. service to bklyn, xfer to bdway trains. downtown, xfer to 1.
(4)-to bronx to BB.
(5)-Dyre to E180 st
(6)-no change
(7)-no change
BMT-
(J)-Chambers st relay likely unsafe. Trains terminate at Canal st.
IND-
(A)-runs in 2 sections:
from 207 st to Canal st, local, using track D5 N of chambers to relay.
&
From Far Rock or Lefferts blvd to Jay st., local. Free xfers handed out at Jay st to Lawrence St R/W service.
(B)-since this is the weekend, there is no service.
(C)-service suspended
(D)-extended to w4th, lcl.
(E)-at W4th, trains switch to 6th av line, terminate at 2nd av.
(F)-runs via crosstown line.
GO-123.4 to be cancelled immediately. work trains moved to 2nd av. after this is completed, the following changes:
(A)- all stops from 207th st to Far Rock/lefferts. Via rutgers
(D)- to 34/6th
(E)-to Canal, turning on D5
(F)-normal service restored.
Lets keep in mind though that smoke rises. in reality, such a situation is virtually impossible. And how long would this suspend service? Not for more than 4 hours.
I hear you on that. No, I'm not looking to make Fulton-Nassau unusable. And I know smoke will not spread that way. But you pulled a good reroute for your IND trains. After all, this scenario was for the IND trainmaster. You included solutions for the BMT and IRT which were not part of this scenario, but it's cool. You did good.
Your score(1-100)
96
I have a feeling you have a hard-on for the BMT. Try the BMT situation which is the first scenario on the Trainmaster Game posts. It's kind of hard, but focus on the BMT reroutes and include solutions with permission from IRT and IND trainmasters. I have a feeling you'll like that one. And it is hard.
Bklyn
Firstly, as it's only an inspection, I'd get those work trains out of the Rutgers St tube and lay them up on the 6th Av Express tracks North of West 4th St.
Then:
(A) 207 - Far Rockaway or Lefferts, Local 145th-W4th Sts, diverted via Rutgers St tubes
(B) BPB - 34/6, Express 145th-34th (switching A and B on CPW, although less than ideal for the convenience of passengers, will avoid congestion at 59th St)
(C) 2 segments: 168 - WTC, High St Bklyn Bridge - Euclid
(D) No Change
(E) Express on 8th Avenue (get it out of the way of the A and C locals), terminating at Canal St
(F) Normal Service
(G) Normal Service
(S) Grand St Normal Service
(S) Rock Pk Normal Service
The solution has some potential. You may need to rethink the 8 Ave line reroute a bit. Won't give tips. This was your gig, and you came out ok.
Your score(1-100)
82
As the IND Desk Superintendant, I would NEVER have allowed such a GO to be written in the first place. GOs of this nature are ALWAYS written so that service is suspended in only one direction at a time. If I was stupid enough to let such a GO happen, I hope my replacement would just cancel the GO.
Simple...
Turn southbound #1/9 trains at Rector Street.
Turn en-route southbound #2 and all #3 trains at 14 St.
Run #2 trains on #5 line.
Run #3 trains en-route in Brooklyn on the #5 line up to E 180 St; take out of service.
Oh, snap...forgot about New Lots!!! #4 trains would run local from Franklin-Utica and on to New Lots Ave.
Also, if the turnback at Rector is inaccessible (or was removed) then the #1 would turn at 14th, the #3 would turn at 34th.
It takes a real buff to figure how to do the reroutes on the scenarios I put in front of you. I think all of you did great. I know the BMT scenario was hard, but I couldn't resist. A similar situation did happen sort of this way, but I spiced it up a bit, maybe too much. The IRT and IND were difficult, but not as harsh as the BMT.
Overall score for everyone that played(1-100), everyone deserves 100, just for trying.
I want to thank all of you for playing. After many Transit Trivias and Q&A's, we tried something new here, based on stuff we already discuss, yet put ourselves in the seat of those who control everyday movement of subway trains.
Thanks again. And see you tomorrow.
BKLYN
Here's a link to a site about a subway system that ran in Rochester NY from 1927 - 1957 complete with pictures and links to more info:
http://www.infiltration.org/transit-roch.html
Fascinating stuff.
Bill
There's also a wonderful 45 minute video of the operation of the Rochester subway. It's been shown on the History Channel and can also be purchased.
The End of the Line
Judging from the video clip it was a trolley system that ran in parts underground.
Yes, that's correct... I have the video.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Rochester subway (the "other" New York subway!) was really a pretty neat operation. It was built to enable the entrance of the interurban cars of New York State Railways' Rochester & Eastern division in a timely manner, but the R&E went out of business due to the depression. The subway was then operated for about 20 years or so using a small fleet of suburban MU cars brought in from Utica, basically beefed up streetcars. Those were really neat cars - single-ended Cincinnati cars with curved-equalizer trucks and GE type PC control. The subway also had some ancient looking curve-side cars early on, but I think those were gone by the early 1930's. One of the Rochester subway cars was saved completely intact by the local NRHS chapter, but it was severely deteriorated by weather during the years it was stored at Rail City. It's now at the Rochester & Genesee Valley Railroad Museum just south of Rochester in a mostly-disassembled state. I hope that it gets put back to together one of these days - that's a real piece of history there. Sorry for the rambling...
Frank Hicks
>>>by Anon_e_mouse on Thu Mar 6 11:27:09 2003.
The Rochester subway (the "other" New York subway!)<<<
I always thought of P.A.T.H. as the other NY subway. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>
The Rochester subway (the "other" New York subway!)<<<
I always thought of P.A.T.H. as the other NY subway. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry for the double posts, people. I'm working out issues with my new browser.
Peace,
ANDEE
The Rochester Subway story makes me sad. All the upstate cities are now places of little significance, and vitually no one moves there unless they are transferred there by one of the dwindling number of large employers. But it wasn't always so.
What if Rochester had kept its subway, with just a handful of trunk trolley lines, and extended it to some of the suburbs? It would be a different place today. It might even have more of a downtown.
They built that street running system in Buffalo, though it's not the same (though I'm glad to see that according to FTA data, after we ate the capital cost, the operating cost per ride is lower than the average Niagara Frontier bus).
Very interesting indeed!
Then make your next stop the Cincinatti Subway, and if you're NY inclined, get off at Brighton Station.
--Mark
I was looking at a map from who knows when and it had shown the Westend line running from 18th ave down to Bath ave, making several stops, the it looks like it reconnects at Bay 50th st
Is this correct, and if so, is there anything that would hint of this
on the current El structure?
I may be wrong about Bath Ave, but it was certainly south of 86th St.
When the West End line was first built, it ran a slightly different route than now. It changed when the line was built as an El.
Those were pre-1916 days, when BU's were running on the surface.
At that time, the West End ran down New Utrecht Avenue to Bath Avenue. At Bath, the 'el' shared trackage with a trolley line. All power was overhead.
The West End connected to the el network at 5th Avenue at 38th Street, where trains changed over to over-riding third rail, and the poles were tied down.
Evidence of the connection still exists just east of the present day 9th Avenue station.
ast of 9th Ave is the old connection to the Culver Shuttle. That area is like 38 St/10 Ave.
I see at Grant Avenue today that they have already installed the signage for the OPTO midnight shuttle between Euclid and Lefferts on the A line.
OPTO signs have been up for quite a while now.
I drove under the overpass which carries the abandoned ROW of the LIRR Rockaway Beach line over Union Turnpike and noticed another, narrower overpass a few hundred feet to the west. It seems to be at an angle to the larger overpass and doesn't seem any wider than 1 track. What on earth is it? A freight siding?
I drove under the overpass which carries the abandoned ROW of the LIRR Rockaway Beach line over Union Turnpike and noticed another, narrower overpass a few hundred feet to the west. It seems to be at an angle to the larger overpass and doesn't seem any wider than 1 track. What on earth is it? A freight siding?
The Vanderbilt Motor Parkway?
That's it. A beautiful bikeway/strollway) a couple of miles long, if I am not mistaken. It was used at one time for Model Ts.
I've walked it. Check it out when spring arrives. It's quite pretty.
Absolutely, but it's nowhere near the Rockaway Beach Branch and never crosses Union Turnpike.
I've been away too long...
Very pretty. The following page has a pic of it in Queens, and some others too.
http://www.nycroads.com/history/motor/
Nice page. But it didn't start anywhere near Union Turnpike and the LIRR Rockaway Beach ROW.
Indeed. I just saw the messages that says this crossing is near Woodhaven. The Vanderbilt ROW is in scenic country anyhow-definitely worth a stroll in the springtime, which is looking like its going to be a long time away with the snow coming down now.
I think you're talking about the the origional route for the line. Around Union Turnpike the line made a left hand turn to connect with the current Montauk line.
When the LIRR was first built (1834) the line went from Greenport to South Ferry, Brooklyn along Atlanic Ave in Brooklyn. Several years later about 1840's Brooklyn banned steam engines so the LIRR had to change their route. They went from Jamaica Station to LIC along the Montauk route. And in the early 1900's after PRR bought the LIRR was the current main route built Jamaica to Hunter's Point and into the tunnels.
Yeah. Freight trains used to run there all the time. And as someone said, it was used to connect the Rockaway ROW to the Montauk Line. I used explore those tracks every week during my little league days. I used to love throwing the switches.
Single track connection between the Montauk line and the old Rockaway line. Rockaway switch was in what is now the Crescent (apartments) parking lot adjacent to Union turnpike. Montauk switch was close to the grade crossing (88 St.). 3 or 4 frieght sidings were off of this short piece of trackage. If you look close, you may be able to see the bumping block of one of the sidings right next to the building, west of the bridge, north side of the turnpike. If you are in the area again, (you sound like you live in Woodhaven from your previous posts) drive on Woodhaven Blvd. northbound and go past Unoin Tpke. but don't go onto the bridge over the Montauk line. Keep to your right and go down that street next to the bridge with the homes on the right side. After the last house, there is a little clearing to the right with the ball fields in the distance. The track is visible in spots not far from the last house and to the right of the ballfields.
Yeah, I'm thinking of tresspassing on TA property. I've become very curious about the non-subway trackage in my area of Queens (I had no idea how much there was!). I've never been on the Rockaway ROW north of the now burned bridge which crossed over the Montauk ROW. If anyone knows of another upcoming walking tour, please let me know!
The part of the Rockaway Beach line not used by the A line ceased being MTA property a long time ago. The MTA, under some lease provision, returned it to the city, and they're now responsible for maintenance, etc.
I attended some of tonight's public hearing in Rockville. Since I have other things to attend to, I will post full details later on.
Funny Subway Quiz
-Harry
NYCrail.com- over 3,000 current NYC subway photos
I got:
"J/M/Z
You're sort of a shady character. You sneak into the city under the East River, and make a hasty exit soon after. But while the tourists may steer clear of your decrepit stations, you know you're essential to the commuters who depend on you. "
Amazing! I wouldn't have wanted any other lines to come up for me. It's sick that it got my lines! It's my favorite subway stoo! SICK, I tell you....
I got them too!
Although I use the A/C/E when I am in NYC
-Harry
That makes THREE of us.
Did you guys say you wouldn't pay the $12 too?
I was just at the Met yesterday. I didn't pay the $12. (I paid $5 for two.) So I can't say I'd pay the $12!
I got caught on the Starbuck's, natch. It assigned me to the "trendy" Sea Beach/West End.
Heh, I'm a free-wheeling F/V/B/D guy that "likes surrealistic fun at Coney Island" ... and while that IS true, none of those lines currently go to Coney Island :)
--Mark
This is what I got...
You're sort of a shady character. You sneak into
the city under the East River, and make a hasty
exit soon after. But while the tourists may
steer clear of your decrepit stations, you know
you're essential to the commuters who depend on
you.
Which New York City subway line are you?
brought to you by Quizilla
I got:
"J/M/Z
You're sort of a shady character. You sneak into the city under the East River, and make a hasty exit soon after. But while the tourists may steer clear of your decrepit stations, you know you're essential to the commuters who depend on you. "
Amazing! I wouldn't have wanted any other lines to come up for me. It's sick that it got my lines! It's my favorite subway lines too! SICK, I tell you....
Don't be too impressed, I'm thoroughly D train and it identified me as the J/M/Z as well. Methinks something's broken. Yeah, that's the D train. :)
Hehe, it seems like we're all stuck in the JMZ, although I just put in the total opposite of "me" in and got the 1,2,3,9 lines.....
(and I kinda like that line too), but I guess it's not broken.
Heh, I got J/M/Z too, even though my home line is apparently the total opposite.
I got 1/2/3. No J/Z for Jay Zee! Oopsie!
Yeah, to get the 123, you had to check out the blonde. :-\
Nope, I think I got to Coney Island that way :)
--Mark
Heh. Cherchez la vache. :)
So! They said I'm a SHADY CHARACTER!
You're sort of a shady character. You sneak into the city under the East River, and make a hasty exit soon after. But while the tourists may steer clear of your decrepit stations, you know you're essential to the commuters who depend on you.
Well, I guess they didn't have many options that would appeal to a Monk from North Dakota. Sheesh! they didn't even have a way to say thay I had some nice Gregorian Chant in my CD Player!
Elias :)
Hehe, I got JMZ first time also, maybe it's just something with subtalkers! Great minds think alike!
I decided to screw with my choices, some of them that I was on the fence over, and got A, C, and E the second time. I think the tourist part suits me better than the New York resident stuff.
Third time 123, don't think it really applies at all, same for the 456. I'm not even sure if it has any 6th ave lines, I've played with it like 10 times, always one of the four above.
I'm not even sure if it has any 6th ave lines,
I hit JMZ first time, changed one answer got BDFV, changed another and got 123. I think the 6th Av Line exists, but Broadway and the Lex seem to be a myth!
Wow...mother...f...ather.
You are the heart of the city, yet you never take
the glory for yourself. You work overtime to
get the job done fast and efficiently. You take
pride in knowing the city just wouldnt work if
you were out of service.
Which New York City subway line are you?
brought to you by Quizilla
My home line! How about that...
I'm the 1/2/3 ... which, indeed, are the lines I ride most often.
NO 7?!
I'll settle for 1/2/3; at least I take it to work. But if there were a 7, I'd be it :).
got J/M/Z
wheres my Q!!!!!!!???
Where, too, are the G, 7, Frank and GCT shuttle?
I got 1/2/3 which is cool, but on the IRT I've always preferred Lex. Also my first preference would be IND 6 Ave and 8 Ave.
Wayne
You are the heart of the city, yet you never take
the glory for yourself. You work overtime to
get the job done fast and efficiently. You take
pride in knowing the city just wouldnt work if
you were out of service.
Which New York City subway line are you?
brought to you by Quizilla
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I got the 1-2-3 as well. To paraphrase the late Mr. Rogers: "Can you say 'self-satisfied'?"
I got the JMZ as well. Boy, I'm sensing a trend here.
And not a good one either. I'm sensing a site operated by the Florida Board or Elections here. :)
I got "You are the heart of the city, yet you never take the glory for yourself. You work overtime to get the job done fast and efficiently. You take pride in knowing the city just wouldnt work if you were out of service."
Not a very accurate description of me (especially the working overtime bit!) but maybe it doesn't work for Englishmen. It also gave me the 1,2,3 lines, which is right (I was wearing my 1 Uptown and the Bronx T-shirt only yesterday - but does it actually give that result for everyone?
but maybe it doesn't work for Englishmen.
I got "You're sort of a shady character. You sneak into the city under the East River, and make a hasty exit soon after. But while the tourists may steer clear of your decrepit stations, you know you're essential to the commuters who depend on you." - The JMZ Lines in case anyone hadn't guessed!
I don't think that's me at all - I think it DEFINITELY doesn't work for Brits!
I got JMZ, then 456-my home lines. Quite a coincidence we hit BMT lines as a majority.
You are the heart of the city, yet you never take
the glory for yourself. You work overtime to
get the job done fast and efficiently. You take
pride in knowing the city just wouldnt work if
you were out of service.
Which New York City subway line are you?
brought to you by Quizilla
LOL! That's me!
You're sort of a shady character. You sneak into
the city under the East River, and make a hasty
exit soon after. But while the tourists may
steer clear of your decrepit stations, you know
you're essential to the commuters who depend on
you.
Which New York City subway line are you?
brought to you by Quizilla
Here is one:
And here are the rest:
02 R-32 (Page 1+)
06 R-33ML (Page 10)
05 R-40 (Page 7)
04 R-68 (Page 10)
04 Work Trains
Enjoy!
Take Pride,
Brian
How do you create that blur effect anyway?
The blur effect occurs when the camera's shutter speed is too slow compared to the speed of the object in the photo. In the case of my photo, the dark underground stations force the camera to use a slower shutter speed to allow more light into the lens. But since the work train was close to me and going by at a good clip, the photo came out blurry.
There is an illustrated review of The Gangs of New York at Book Review Net by Gregory Christiano, who also did the IRT Strike piece for The Third Rail.
Of especially interest for the more antiquarian among us is a brief rundown of which streets of the mid-19th century became what today. One street ended in a dead-end called "Cow Bay."
Moo! :)
I had trouble taking "Gangs" seriously. It kept reminding me of "The Warriors"
The book is far better than the movie -- in fact the movie in some ways completely reverses the book's point of view towards the draft riots, and as William S Blyk points out in this week's New York Press even manages to include as a main character someone who had already been dead for eight years when the riots broke out.
(Scorsese's next film will be a World War II epic, showing Jimmy Doolittle's laser-guided missile attack on Tokyo with his stealth bombers in April of 1942...)
Just as a historical bit of interest, Greg Christiano interviewed me for a job at Hagstrom Maps...
...in 1981! Who knows what might have happened if I were turned loose over there. The world can thank Greg for not hiring me.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Well, I did work for Hagstrom (before GC was there) and old Mr. Hagstrom himself knew of my eager interest in working for the map department. One day he came over to my drafting board and looked over my shoulder at a subway map I was designing. He said nothing at all to me but went in and spoke to my department head. Later I asked what he said. The answer: "Paul has too much free time."
>>>One day he came over
to my drafting board and looked over my shoulder at a subway map I was designing.<<<
Hagstrom had the world's most beautiful subway map before they modernized and 'improved' em in the (70s I think it was)...
I wish they'd get back to that classic look with that classic Viking longboat logo. The Vikings were world class navigators in the early 1000s and a longboat made for a fitting logo or a map company...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hagstrom considered that that Viking ship represented him personally and his trip to the U.S.
Today we clear out some stories in the odds and end file.
Before we get started with this week’s lesson, I thought I would take care of a few odds and ends of my own. The beautiful bride and I enjoyed a great vacation in North Carolina this past week. It was really good to get away, see some friends and family and even attend a wedding. Good friend and fellow railroader (and Hot Times subscriber) Don Woods and his beautiful new bride exchanged vows and are now husband and wife. Don’t know if the lovely Christie read the "Life of a Railroad Wife" column or not, but she has been with Don for several years, so I think she knows what she has gotten herself into. I thought I would take this opportunity to publicly wish them well and also many happy years together.
I even did something on this vacation I really do not care to do, fly. I’m still not past my fear of flying, but I guess sometimes you really have to do what you don’t want to do. But I don’t have to like it. At least I didn’t act like a raving lunatic on the plane, so I guess that is something.
"And now for something completely different."
I have all sorts of little bits and pieces of railroad amusement. Unfortunately though, these piece and parts are too brief to entitle the privilege of an entire column. So today we are going gather up a bunch of them and throw them out here for your reading pleasure.
I have mentioned in the past how railroading can be difficult on marriages. Many railroaders have been involved in multiple marriages, only in most cases, only one at a time. A good friend told me of one case where a guy had wife and family on both ends of the road. Somehow he not only balanced them, he successfully kept both wives and families from ever knowing about each other for years. That is until he got one son from each marriage a job on the railroad, each working in their respective hometown. At some point son A wound up in the home terminal of son B. They noticed they had the same last name and began to discuss this fact.
During the course of the conversation, it was learned their fathers had the very same name and worked at this railroad. Within no time it was then discovered they had the very same father and his deep dark little secret was soon exposed.
Busted!
I have enough trouble trying to keep track of my life with the beautiful bride. How in the world this guy managed to balance and support two families is really beyond me. I’m also trying to figure out how he managed to support two families simultaneously.
One guy I have worked with over the years has been married to and divorced from the same woman some five times over the years. Five times to the same woman! Here’s a guy who really knows exactly how to ruin a perfectly good divorce and do so in multiple. I wish I could be his lawyer.
We are forbidden by the rules from carrying firearms while on duty unless our job duties require them. (While this doesn't really tie into marriage, many marriages have involved shotguns.) In the transportation department there are no duties that require us to need them. Well, let me rephrase that, there are no duties in which the carriers see fit for us to carry firearms. Only the railroad police have duties requiring them to pack some heat. However, I have known probably hundreds of railroaders who have packed some sort of gun. Considering the neighborhoods we have to operate through and some of the things that have happened out here, it only makes sense to have some sort of assistance.
I believe some railroad officials are not so worried about us shooting ourselves or perhaps each other, they are terrified we will go postal and shoot them. Of course I have worked with and for a few railroad officials that have a justified fear of this sort of treatment. And while I certainly do not condone or encourage such behavior, had they met this fate it is not likely I would shed a tear upon learning of their demise.
I worked with a guy at one railroad whose train was stopped in a high crime neighborhood. While they waited upon a favorable signal to proceed, a couple of the neighbors brought forth a boarding party and climbed onto his caboose. Of course they were not high profile in their appearance, so this Conductor and his Flagman were caught somewhat by surprise when this boarding party appeared. And being there were no working locks on the caboose doors, there was no way to prevent them from entering unless you standing watch for such intrusions.
The boarding party leader walked up to the cupola area, looked up at the two sitting in their chairs and suggested they climb down and present his party with their valuables as a sort of welcome aboard gift. The Conductor graciously declined stating he had "nine good reasons" why he wouldn’t come down. Again the boarding party leader made his suggestion and again this Conductor reiterated his nine good reasons not to. The party leader then decided to offer some persuasion to the Conductor. He climbed up the ladder to the cupola to strongly urge the Conductor to reconsider his decision. When he reached the top he discovered the nine good reasons, the business end of a nine millimeter handgun. Upon making this discovery the boarding party leader called for a hasty retreat and they all exited, stage left. No gifts were given and no invitation to return was extended.
On the lighter side, one afternoon in early 1987 in my CCP days, I was working the Hawthorne-Markham Transfer job. We were heading back to Hawthorne in a snowstorm. It was really coming down and everything was quickly going down the tubes.
We got held at Clark Street on the ICG for the