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happy new year!!!!!!!!1
You're late!
Your posting came in at 5 seconds after 12!
Happy New Year !
I posted exactly 1 year before that post to the second!!
similar title too
Happy New Year to all the Sub-Talkers!
Chuck Greene
New year ain't for another 3 days, switch to the real new year! Perihelion: 12 am 1/4/02! Hey, then theres less crowding in Times Square. And July Fourth at 2 am marks the Aphelion, or halfway round the sun, a twofer!
BTW: Perihelion is the closest approach the earth will make to the sun, in this case 91,405,340 miles, beacuse of Kepler's first law, all bodies travel in an ellipse with one Focus at the sun, thus we have Aphelion, the furthest we get from the sun, 94,510,793 miles.
Alright alright, I'll bend to convention. Happy New Year, and a good 2003 to everyone. May your Redbirds be plentiful and your Widecabs few (unless you're a T/O or C/R and like that sorta thing).
Did I make it? I made the last 2002 post.
No, I see my neighbor beat me to it.
Happy new year!!!
May there be another ERA trip this year
You made it David. HAPPY NEW YEAR'''
Larry, RedbirdR33
You were the last posting for 2002.
But the 2nd for 2003.
Nope, R30 beat you by a minute and 15 seconds but hey you have the 2nd post of 2003.
I'll gladly share the honor with a fellow Upper West Sider.
Well, '02 is behind us and now we start a new year 2003. Hopefully everything will be be OK this year, and best wishes to ALL!
wayne
Happy New Year to everybody on "Sub Talk" from #3 West End Jeff.
#3 West End Jeff
Happy New Year to you!
Let's hope that "Sub Talk" doesn't get shut down this year because someone misbehaved. I'll make sure to behave because I want to help keep this message board going.
#3 West End Jeff
TO ALL, A HAPPY, HEALTHY, AND SAFE NEW YEAR.
HAPPY NEW YEAR SUBTALKER'S!!! Hope you all have a great and way past cool New Year!
The December Subtalk report is in!
12,060 messages were posted by 378 posters. This is compared to 12,123 last month, a month which was shorter by one day
TOP 10 POSTERS:
SelkirkTMO 590 4.89% Rank unchanged
Flatbush41 424 3.52% Up from 16th
David J. Greenberger 356 2.95% Up from 4th
GP38 Chris 314 2.60% Down from 2nd
Douce Man 305 2.53% Up from 13th
American Pig 238 1.97% Up from 17th
AlM 236 1.96% Up from a tie at 8th
Elias 231 1.92% Up from 31st
BMTman 230 1.91% Up from 14th
SUBWAYSURF 210 1.74% Up from 15th
Those from last month's top ten that didn't make the cut:
Steve B-8AVEXP was 3rd, is now 13th
RonInBayside was 5th, is now 18th
#4 Sea Beach Fred was 6th, is now 12th
Peter Rosa was 7th, is now 11th
JohnS was tied at 8th, is now 50th
Paul Matus was 10th, is now 14th
25.99% of posts were made by 2.65% of posters
The average poster made 31.905 posts
The median number of posts made by a single individual was 7.5
50% of all posts were posted by the top 29 posters and by the bottom 349 of posters.
These statstics are almost unchanged from the previous month, that is probably true every month. There is no sense in posting them ever again.
I strongly suspect that the last minute push in posting may have been related to people trying to get on to the top 10. I did post 114 messages in the last two days on 2002. That was not because of who you are, but for different reasons altogether.
Still, most of those posts were on-topic, we didn't have any major flame wars or bad political discussions. If the top ten lists encourages an explosion of interesting threads, then I'm all for it.
"The median number of posts made by a single individual was 7.5 "
Please explain how the median poster made 7 and a half posts?
I've had to write a few posts muliple times due to AOH problems, does that count? The half post was the initial, erased by the gremlins in AOL's "Code?"
There were an even number of posters. Thus there wasn't one middle poster but two. It just so happens that one of those middle posters made 7 posts, the other one 8.
Damn Pig, me & you really jumped positions in our post count over the last month but we didn't really make too many off topic posts so we didn't do it just to inflate post count.
This is a far different top 10 list from last month and once again, SelkirkTMO takes the cake. Me, you, Elias & Douce Man really made a jump in the ranks. I was away from here for 10 days in December and I might of ACTUALLY been on top [which would be real surprising] but hey, I'm not sweating it.
And sadly, I really was trying to cut back. :(
HEY! Me and duh boys downstate got big money ridin' on you at Belmont. We sez, when a state employee getz bought, he stayz bought.
Heh. Stopped sharecropping on the Paturkey farm back in 1995. Too well to attend. But if you can give me a push into the Arnine cab, be willing to take out the field of horses. :)
Oops, that's right; it's your pension money that gets spent on gambling, not mine. But why are you wasting time online all day if you're not paid by the government?
Sending email to customers who have the day off and are angry that I might have had it off, looking for nasties out there to cover with our BOClean stuff (the KIDDIES are home writing nasties) and various other things we do every day here. While stuff's flowing in and out, I duck in here to kill time while the machine is otherwise occupied. Gotta hit the internet to find things, so it's this or another same old same old porno site. I prefer train porn myself. :)
Maybe you should switch to decaf : )
Actually you did cut back by over 200 posts from your November total of 803.
No question about it then - we've gotta get Steve 8 Ave Exp back on his company network and I've gotta get me a LIFE. :)
LOL! 8-) Come on Selkirk, you DO have a life, you cutting back further would be rather strange; there's nothing wrong with posting a lot of meaasges as long as it is logical.
I dunno ... there are times that I feel like John Belushi crushing a beer can (errr, R62) on my forehead, raising eyebrow and dancing back and forth. RAMMING SPEEEeeeeed! :)
You actually managed to cut back significantly that first week. Because the index for the whole month is too large for Word to process quickly, I do it week by week.
Sorry, I don't keep the individual week's files, I add the data for the following week as soon as I process it.
At first, I felt guilty for seemingly hogging the place ... but I got over it. :)
But it did make me try to cut back. Alas, there's so many things that appear here that cry out for me to chide in. It's TRULY a fun place.
5 up from 13.
305 postings.
I didn't think I was making so many postings.
Awwwww... I guess if they're time consuming, I can understand your not wanting to post them, but I would guess there are enough numbers people here that the rankings would be really cool. I like them.
I will keep posting the rankings, just not the average and median.
How about ranking for the entire year?
This would require that I actually collect and sort the data for each month.
Sorry, I'm not going to do that. But if I can get a volunteer to split the work, then I wouldn't mind.
If anybody wants to be that volunteer, I will offer free training.
My e-mail is subtalkreport@subtalklive.com
These rankings are interesting, but as Dave P. has mentioned there's the possibility that some people will post a lot of "me too" things just to boost their numbers.
Either they'll do the "me to" or they'll write "I forgot".
Or make double entries.
Also, all they say is I agree or say LOL with faces. Double entries are not always deliberate since sometimes it can get messed up.
That way it looks innocuous.
That way it looks innocuous
LOL!!!
Or make double entries over and over and over.
Like this one?
I would have posted "I forgot" even if there were no rankings posted every month. I remembered I wanted to ask a question about something but I forgot what. Posting I forgot made me laugh, even though it's only funny in a lame way.
One post doesn't put you into the top ten list, over 200 do.
>>> One post doesn't put you into the top ten list, over 200 do. <<<
Or 114 mostly useless posts over two days at the end of the month. This "contest" does nothing to improve SubTalk.
Tom
I don't think so.
In the last week of the month, people were complaining about the boringness of Subtalk. In those last two days, the post count was unusually high for more than just me. I found the board interesting again and worthy of my time.
>>> the post count was unusually high for more than just me <<<
The post count may be higher, but there is a lot of thread inflation, with more words and fewer original thoughts.
Tom
"One post doesn't put you into the top ten list, over 200 do"
But do it a few times over and over and you might make the top ten.
I never knew there was a competition for being the one of the top ten posters on SubTalk.
Guess I'll have to start talking more if I want to at least get honorable mention. :)
Do we really care?
This is more "American Pig's gotta be in the top 10 posters on Subtalk", which, of course is really miniscule in the total scheme of things.
But considering how "the total scheme of things" is going so far this century, what ISN'T miniscule? At least this is fun!
I thought I posted a lot - evidently not - I only made 105 postings, so I'm WAY off the list!
In addition, compared to last month, one had to post less (even with the extra day) to make it onto the list. 10th place this month posted only 210/1.74%, last month it was 228/1.88%.
It figures. The rich just keep racking up more and more, and us little people fall further and further behind. Dave, can you start taxing the heavy posters?
Last month I even posted a Lorenz curve to show this inequality.
Originally I thought that being in the top 10 should be a point of shame.
BTW, you were tied with Anon_e_mouse for 35th place.
At first, I felt being in the top 10 meant you had no life and was a point of shame as well but now I don't think so, I think its positive as long as the posts are logical and make sense. Do you still feel that being in the top 10 is a point of shame?
I don't think that being in the top ten is a point of shame. I only made December's top 10 (Before my 115 on 12/30-31, I was in a 3-way tie for 20th) because I discovered that if I didn't post more, then I would drop to 3rd as the most prolific poster of all time by the end of January. Jersey Mike told me I should post more. Except for the "I forgot" post and a few posts about TV, I've stayed mostly relevant and on-topic.
I guess I have to contribute a little more than I'm doing. But it's nice to have some REALLY interesting topics in this site going on, sometimes it can be another city transportation system. Let's hope all of us make waves in 2003 and have a productive year.
Let's hope all of us make waves in 2003
I guess you want to be a Redbird.
No, I'm a Q Brighton line fan. Deadbirds will be nearly extinct this year unless NYCT has to extend the life of some cars due to a shortage in R142's against an IRT fleet, becuase they didn't order enough cars to meet ridership demand.
Your sense of humor needs repair.
Guess I will have to take my humor to the Coney Island GOH shop.
Uh...gee Pig, you must have ALOT of time on your hands! Never knew anyone was 'keeping score'.
I hope you had fun doing this.
I'm just curious, How do you take your subtalk? Do you go for the chronological order, or do you prefer compressed? How long do you let it go for? A day? a week? a month? I would ask about killfiles, but their private and all. Oh, and if this in anyway allows some hacker to gain access to a subtalkers account, then drop the message.
By the way, I've got it set to 'By threads, reversed' I like to see the progression of the discussion before opening the first post, see who has responded to who and so on. On my AOL laptop I've got it set to a mere 3 days, cause it's just so damn slow, but on my parents machine running Comcast@home cable, I've got it set to maybe a week or two, although it has been really slow lately, and I may bring it down, but it's fun to see 1000 some posts, even if I have to go 3/4s down the page to see one post that still is generating new posts despite it's age.
Oh, and my killfile has remains free of names.
Yeah, "thankfully" I have no killfiles neither, never had anything against a poster that was extreme. I prefer the default[chronological order] its easier on me and I'm used to it, usually I keep it do a day since like now you're seeing 600-680 posts as of late which means the live SubTalk is back :-).
I have no one in my killfile.
I use 'By threads, reversed'.
I have it set to show one day, because anything more than that is just old news!
Happy New Years! I'm going to sleep now so that I can get up and fill my cargo van with all my college belongings that I've aquired over the last 4.5 years. Oy, I'm getting ferklepmt! Talk amongst yourselves. I'll give you a topic: If you ride the IRT to work and you live and work in the same borough, shouldn't you really be riding the Intraborough Rapid Transit?
Take Pride,
Brian
Threads, reversed. I had it on 1 month when I was at college, but now I'm home with crappy dialup, so it's set to 3 days now.
Killfile is empty. If someone bothers me that much, I can mentally tell myself not to read their post.
I read a day at a time, in reverse chronological order. For the last couple of months, I have 2 posters in my killfile. I wish I had done that years ago.
Default. {reverse chronological order}. When I open the page for the first time in a few hours, I go down to where the "NEW"s stop. Usually one of my messages is right under that line if I posted. I first open up those to see if I got any kind of response, and then take on the rest. As I move up, if I see the beginning post of a thread that has already been responded to so much, but I want to read through it, I'll book-mark it. Also, once I'm looking at a thread, I'll go to the responses first, b/c I don't like going from the index to a message, and vice versa repeatedly.
Like wise.
avid
Hmm:
Threads, Reversed.
2 Days Display
No one in Killfile
I also use Mozilla as my broswer of choice. Very reliable. :)
Reverse chronological order.
I consider the The Killfile to be useless except as an example of elegant programming by David Pirmann. I'd never consider using it.
It actually can be quite useful for other reasons then it is meant for. If I need to find an old post of mine, I add "Chris R27-R30" to my killfile. If I didnt, There would be all of his posts there when I search for posts by R30.
Otherwise my killfile is empty
I use the default: Chronological order for one day (newest posted message on top). I then go down to where the "new" starts, and begin reading upwards. When I get to a thread I haven't read any posts in yet, I sometimes click "First in thread" and read through the thread. By the time I get to the top of the list, most of the messages are then purple. Them I press refresh and catch the messages that were posted while I was reading, and finally, I'm caught up.
If I haven't been here for a while, I usually change the settings to how many days I wasn't here, and view by thread. If time is limitted, I can then read the things I am most interested in, while skipping the rest.
I would not even consider using the killfile, if I don't want to read something, I just don't click on it.
I have it in chronological order. Nothing in the killfile, though I've been tempted.
Compressed three-day on my teeny wi-fi, default on Netscape at work, no killfile. How can anyone set to one day?
If I've been keeping up, I do chronological, half-day. Once I'm reading a post I work through the entire thread before returning to the index. If I've fallen a few days behind, I switch to threaded view so I can more easily weed out topics. I don't use the killfile, but I don't bother reading most posts by some posters. (Conversely, there are a few posters whose posts I read even in threads I haven't otherwise been reading.)
I'd still prefer an NNTP interface, but that's not in the cards and this is workable.
I start from the bottom of the file and work my way up. I try to read as many topics as I can. I used to be in two Subtalkers' Kill File but fortunately got out. I do not want to be in anyone's kill file, and have no one in my file either.
By Thread, Reversed (one week) works best for me.
Wayne
By Threads Reversed, 2 weeks or one month when I am on a hi-speed connection. 1 week when I am on a lo-speed connection.
I used to keep on Threads, reversed for 1 week, but have most recently been keeping it on 3 day Chronological.
I until recently had it on threads, NOT reversed for two days, but since I've been able to keep up, I have it set to chronologically, one day.
At some point I'll have to go back to threads since I won't have time to look at every message. I rely on the browser history, I scroll down to where the blue links end and the purple ones begin, and even if I don't read a message, I still click it so it appears read.
Default - one day. When I've been away I use the "by date" option until I'm caught up. Loads much faster, even on a high speed connection, and puts less strain on Dave's bandwidth. And I do read all following posts (assuming I'm going to) in a thread, often by the expedient of going back to "first in thread", when I'm catching up.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=516&e=1&u=/ap/20021231/ap_on_re_as/china_maglev_train
I knew it would work! 260 MPH!!!!!!!! KICKA$$!!!!! What a great way to start the new year! Japanese Bullet Train, put 260MPH in your pipe and smoke it! Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!
Take Pride,
Brian
Yay! a small victory for the Maglev! It's nice to see the Transrapid finally get some speed, I think Emsland might have been holding it back, and the Japanese MLX01 was getting all the press. I don't think thats a record, but hey, it's still 260 mph! whats that? Close to double the Acelas usual cruising speed? And more than double an AEM7? Damn.
It's worth noting that the Maglev is of German design, and was built by the Transrapid company in China for Shanghai's airport. There's just one thing that worries me is this quote, 'Premier Zhu, whom Schroeder thanked for personally overseeing the Shanghai construction, said he hoped maglev trains would be "quickly localized" — produced entirely in China." Dear god I hope not, or else it may be like Alweg and Japan back in the 1960s. After building the seattle monorail, several Japanese cities decided that they might like one, alweg came in, sized everything up, designed it, then the Japanese dismissed them and built it 'indigenously'from the Alweg plans. ALWEG was quickly destroyed by this and today the Japanese are still making Alweg copy monorails. Transrapid better watch it's back, one German rail company going bankrupt in asia is bad, two is horrible.
I'm still waiting for the track power to go out, and for a 260 mph maglev to get dumped on the guideway, shredding the body and spilling chinese citizens everywhere. I'm fervently against maglevs that need power to lift them, such as the Feedback controlled magnets in the Transrapid or the Superconductors in the MLX01 system. Theres too much to go wrong, and too little room for error. A much better system is the Induction Maglev, which will use simple copper coils for the track, and halbach array magnets for the lift magnets. The system is foolproof, lose power? the train will slow, coming lower and lower to the track, until it lands on it's wheels and stops.
Oh well, I'm tired, so I'll just leave a link to an article that describes the Halbach Array and Induction Maglev in much greater detail. But I will say that this is it, the big breaktrough that maglev has needed, the one thing that would render it useful.
Yes, I hope the success here will land Maglev's in places such as Las Vegas to LA and Pittsburgh to the airport and eventually Boston to NYC to Philadelphia to Wash DC.
Take Pride,
Brian
Good luck trying to get a new right of way between Boston and DC for maglev (or TGV/Shinkansen, for that matter). You have to cross too many hills, towns, and people's backyards. How many years did it take to get the tiny amount of land needed for the Montclair Connection...?
The Shanghai maglev is impressive though. Not only does it have a high operating speed, they built the thing pretty quickly too (what did it take, two years?).
The budget would seem to be competitive in US markets, assuming the technology is really mature enough. On a per-mile basis, it cost less than AirTrain.
Of course, we're talking about Asian labor, so I expect the cost would rise if it were built here...
You understand I'm referring to labor rates in Asia, not making a comment about ethnicity.
Of course.
Also, I kinda doubt that there are any laws in China requiring massive public works projects to undergo environmental review or public hearings.
Witness themassive damming project going on.
Well, they're starting to review environmental impacts due to:
1) citizen demands (the Communists aren't COMPLETELY undemocratic)
2) the leadership breathes the same air as everyone else, and
3) they recognize they will be competing for talent just like every other nation and most talented people like good environments.
But, they don't let it get mired in the environmental considerations like many Western countries do - they make a determination, make adjustments if necessary and go to work. They also live by "the good of the many outweighs the good of a few" philosophy - hence the building of the Three Gorges Dam to generate electricity.
Just build right over I-95, or parallel interstates, I think the requirements are pretty similar, and the Maglev pylons would fit right down the center over the divider. They'd be a bit low, but lighting could be rigged off the supports for the maglev. Plus it would be a bit demoralizing for some holiday traveler to be stopped waiting for traffic, or even to be zooming along at 70-80 miles an hour, and to be passed by something doing 200mph faster! Might be a very good ad campaign! This could work really well on the New Jersey Turnpike where there are expansive shoulders between the Truck and Car lanes and the maglevs can be separated without falling off the I-95 ROW. How to approach New York, I have no idea. Maybe a dedicated or dual use (Maglev and LRT/PATH or maybe car I suppose) bridge into Lower Manhatten is in order, cable stayed, and dropping the maglev onto the West Side of Manhatten, where it would run up to 9A, the Henry Hudson Expressway. There it would get the heck out of town quickly. I'd envision mulitple stops in Manhatten, maybe one near where it lands in manhatten, around 14th, which meets up with an extended L train, then further north around 34th, where Elia's 34th St LRT carries passengers crosstown to the Subways and Penn Station, and finally one up around 125th st, where the SAS's 125st Branch would terminate.
As for the powering the maglev. For anyone who read that article, it should be remembered that the Halbach Array used in the maglev provides only lift, no thrust. Thrust would come from one of two sources. In the city, and in areas with the infrastructure to support it, the maglev would use linear induction motors (similar to the Airtrain's setup), either mounted under the guideway like the transrapid setup, or mounted in the middle of the guideway, like airtrain has it. Most of the country does not really have the infrastructure to support an LIM equipped Maglev guideway between here and Chicago, or even the west coast, so the Maglev trains would be dual mode, LIM/Gas Turbine. When the LIM track ended, a jet engine would turn on, to propel it, Airliner-style to the next section of LIM equipped track. Right now I'm favoring the General Electric TF34 turbofan, an extremely quiet, 10,000lb thrust jet. All stations would have LIMs in them to keep the running of the jets at maximum thrust to a minimum.
On special all-LIM ROWs, or on Intra- City (commuter) services, the Maglevs wouldn't even have jets, just LIMs, and maybe small battery powered electric motors on the landing wheels, just to crawl into the station in the event of the power to the LIM going out. The deletion of jets from the Maglevs would allow for very very light consists with push pull configurations possible. Because the jet powered maglevs would burn fuel, and need to carry and accelerate that fuel, they would be inheirently less efficnent than the LIM lines, and so there would be a definite advantage to LIM-ize lines that were previously Jet Maglev lines.
Just build right over I-95, or parallel interstates, I think the requirements are pretty similar
I wouldn't know how to perform actual measurements, but my general impression is that the Interstates in the Northeast are curvier and hillier than even the existing NEC. I guess this isn't so obvious on the NJ Turnpike, which I remember as being pretty wide, flat, and straight, but try driving any of the highways in New England (including I-95 north of NYC, I-84, and I-91)-- I don't think the grades and alignments would cut it.
The possible Baltimore-Washington maglev project was a total boondoggle for serveral reasons. Not sure of the Pittsburgh project progress/lack of.
1. No formal proposals for downtown to downtown in Baltimore/DC. Only the non-city routes were ever presented.
2. No support from the Maryland Senators, who took a general "hands off" attitude.
3. Just the mention of strong magnetic fields brought the NIMBYs out by the LRV load. All of the proposed routes went through Linthicum, where 50% of the pupulation is still unhappy with the light rail line. This was just one more nail in the coffin.
It's ridiculously expensive already, so why not build it in the Atlantic Ocean?
>>> I knew it would work! 260 MPH!!!!!!!! <<<
Before anyone rushes out to buy stock in a maglev company, it should be noted that this was one run. If, after a year it is running reliably without excessive maintenance or safety problems, it is time to start thinking about longer applications. If anyone did the math, this line is 19 miles long and the time of the run is 14 minutes for an average speed of 81.43 mph. That in itself is not a great advance.
Tom
Ahh, finally someone who isn't dazzled by the headlines!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Agreed.
Amtrak's Metroliner is a proven service at 125 mph on straightaways, but even with 100% on-time performance, perfectly clean bathrooms and leather seats the service would be a waste if you could only travel between, for example, Philly and Trenton.
Which cars would you count as Redbirds? Strictly speaking, they would only be the cars delivered with the name (R28 and above, no WF R33/36) but even the "official" name was extended further.
I would count the cookie-cutter Reggie Welch designs skinned with LAHT (i.e., painted) as follows: R16,17,21,22,26,27,28,30,33,36. No stainless. No pre-R16 since those were still attempts at ornamented design.
Are BMT "recbirds" true redbirds or only IRT?
Which would you include? Why?
I just can't think of any non-IRT cars as being "true" redbirds.
The "Redbirds" were any cars painted in the David Gunn "Silverfox" paint scheme that the remaining "Redbirds" wear today.
IRT
R-17 (a few cars, including 6688, now at Branford)
R-26
R-28
R-29
R-33
R-36
BMT/IND
R-27 (some cars)
R-30 (all GE cars, including the R-30As, and some Westinghouse cars)
(I'm not counting the R-16 in back of PS 248 -- it never ran in service in those colors)
David
the Greenbirds were
R-10 110 cars
R-17 6677
R-21 7075
R-33 a few cars(all MLs)
I thought some other models of ML IRT cars were Greenbirds as well before they became Redbirds when they didn't like the green scheme on the IRT cars.
The "Redbirds" are the R-26/28/29/33/33WF/36WF/36ML IRT cars.
There were "B" division "Redbirds" and they were the R-27/30s. They are sometimes referred to as "Redbirds" because they used the same color scheme as the IRT "Redbirds". Sometimes people might refer to the "Redbirds" as the IRT cars that were originally painted fire-engine red. Those were the R-29/33/36ML cars.
#3 West End Jeff
Everything except the lone R16 and some R17's are Redbirds; R17's are actually maroon and 10 of them were painted for a fan trip and there were a few others painted to get it in a non-graffiti standard.
IRT Redbirds are the true Redbirds without a doubt since the R36 had them back in 1982, it caught on and that's what we call them now.
IRT: R26/28,29,33,33WF,36,36WF, the true Redbirds
IND/BMT: R30/30A, the B division Redbirds, they are Redbirds too since they were painted red. Some R27's were painted in the red scheme as well but they weren't GOH'ed and it was done just to get the cars graffiti free.
Hey, imagine they kept the dark green paint scheme as the rebuilt color scheme, they would of been "Greenbirds".
Actually, until they began washing cars regularly (ironically at about the same time graffiti started in big time) they were dirty birds. You could tell how recently a new car was delivered by how much of the original color you could see.
No, no I'm not talking about the olive drab color mixed with grime, I'm talking about the green scheme of the 1980's on the mainline cars [R26/28,29,33,36] before it was dropped for the red scheme aka the birth of the Redbirds on the mainline IRT.
where did the R32s and R38s that replaced the R30s on the A,C,and H come from?
The R-32s came from Budd and the R-38s came from St. Louis Car :-)
Actually, the R-38s were already on the A and the R-32s came from Coney Island and/or Jamaica.
David
R38's were exclusively on the A since the GOH and the R32's came from CI and/or Jamaica when the R30's were replaced in 1993, which led to the car shortage we STILL have to this day but ridership changed dramatically so this led to the scrapping of the cars.
I was reading a Notice on the C/R assignments sheets and the A Div. Crew office is asking C/R's to Volunteer to transfer over to the B Div. Also says those C/R's who have a desire to transfer over should submit a G2 Immediately.
I wonder should I go put my name back on the list!
wayne
Come on over, We'll be glad to have you here. I think you will like it. Remember, you could always go back.
All this talk about the Woodhaven stations in the other thread made me look through some of my slides.
Well for those interested, here are some photos of the LIRR Woodhaven Station from the LIRR Rockaway Branch for those who don't know what it looks like. It's hard to believe that there were two LIRR stations right here and now there isn't even one.
I took these back in September of 1993. I found the station totally by accident that day. I was railfanning the LIRR Flatbush Branch one day by car (photos of the stations, some train pictures, photos at Dunton Tower), and totally by accident I was driving down Atlantic Avenue, and stumbled across it. Of course my curiousity took me into the station. It was the only time I was ever there.
Sorry they are a bit dark (the slides aren't), but I'm having a terrible time getting my scanner to scan slides properly, something is set wrong, and I don't know how to change it. Oh well.
Nice pics! Do you have any more of the line?
http://www.oldnyc.com/rockaway/contents/rockaway.html, for the tour done by oldnyc.com
Only a few more that I know of. Only took photos of that line twice. The day I described above, and one other time when I walked from Winfield to where the line crossed the Montauk Branch in Glendale. I'll have to look for those.
If the first car really is a "singles car" and considering that this is where you're most likely to find railfans, many of whom are "eligible," I think the ladies should be aware of good conversation starters. Every young woman knows who to "accidentally" brush into someone and look up with bright pretty eyes, but then what do you say to a railfan? Suggestions:
"I can't find anyone to explain the differences between an R68 and an R68a. Can you help me?"
"I just love the way you immitate the compressor on a 2600 series BMT Standard."
"I've been going out with a 42nd St. Shuttle guy, but he has a one-track mind."
"Is that a brake handle in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?"
LOL!!!
I can tell you're quite debonaire... 8-)
What do you tell the lady at the end of the date?
What do you tell the lady at the end of the date?
OK, what? :)
"I just love it when you grab my straphanger."
I'd go with what a switchman inadvertently said to Nancy at Utica and then realized what passed his lips ... "Would you like to hold my handle?" :)
Was that what happened after he offered to show her his triple valve?
;-)
I think *I* would have slapped him with the business end of that red-tipped device. :)
I fear we are about to descend the slippery slope of that angled pipe thingy soon.
Yes, I expect that the descent will lead to an "E-Dogg" incident. ;)
No, we are NOT going to tear down that angle thingy. Unless of course the valve needs cleaning. :)
I'm glad I'm signing off for the night...
:0)
So this is how a horny railbuff's mating calls sound...
I think it's more like Bob & Ray's concept;
HULLA hulla HULLA hulla HULLA hulla HUL-LA-LO!
Step in and stand clear of the moving drawers:)
"Step in and stand clear of the moving drawers"
Actually, that has a not-too-funny counterpart.
To help Los Angeles MTA control a proliferation of pickpockets, LAPD created a decoy squad similar to New York's (but much smaller) to ride buses and watch for them. But last year, the squad made over 70 arrests for sexual assault. A typical case: On a crowded bus, a perpetrator would stand close to a seated woman, and would brush his crotch up against her repeatedly, taking advantage of the bus' swaying motion to make it look like incidental contact. The decoy officer, seated near the rearof the bus, dressed in a basketball tank-top, baggy jeans and a baseball cap worn backward, whipped out his badge, and took the guy off the bus to wait for a patrol car to transport him to central booking..
To help Los Angeles MTA control a proliferation of pickpockets, LAPD created a decoy squad similar to New York's (but much smaller) to ride buses and watch for them. But last year, the squad made over 70 arrests for sexual assault. A typical case: On a crowded bus, a perpetrator would stand close to a seated woman, and would brush his crotch up against her repeatedly, taking advantage of the bus' swaying motion to make it look like incidental contact. The decoy officer, seated near the rearof the bus, dressed in a basketball tank-top, baggy jeans and a baseball cap worn backward, whipped out his badge, and took the guy off the bus to wait for a patrol car to transport him to central booking.
What if it was just incidental contact? It might be difficult for an undercover officer to tell for sure, especially if it had been sitting some distance away.
Initially, the officer didn't know.
The officer noted that the suspect made no attempt to make more room for himself even as the # of passengers varied; he brushed into her repeatedly over several minutes, with the officer eventually deciding that his movements seemed exaggerated even factoring in the bus driver's maneuvers. And contact was always directly with the center of his pants.
I got on to a crowded streetcar once and, feeling yself lose balance, reached out for a metal seat-back grip. My hand brushed against a woman's breast (she was very well-endowed). I apologized and struggled to shift my position so her bosom was no longer directly in my way. The guy in my example made no such effort.
.....and struggled to shift my position so her bosom was no longer directly in my way
....the things you learn on SubTalk......
I got on to a crowded streetcar once and, feeling myself lose balance, reached out for a metal seat-back grip. My hand brushed against a woman's breast (she was very well-endowed).
Heh. It's happened to me on crowded subways. A useful way to tell if they're real ...
I don't know about you, Peter...
Hey, there was a Seinfeld episode that involved a somewhat analagous "reality" test.
Somewhat remarkable for a show that was about "nothing", according to its creator and primary star.
The crime you are describing here in the NYS Penal Law is called Jostling. (I don't know what it is in Calif.)
Unfortunately about 20 years ago a few transit cops (before the merge with the NYPD) were prosecuted for making a bunch of jostling arrests on the subway that both internal affairs and the DA's office arbitrarily deemed were phoney arrests just to make overtime. The DA's stated the cops convinced female complainants that the jostling was deliberate and urged them to press charges which many did. Some of those cops were found guilty of official misconduct and fired.
There's no excuse for that kind of police abuse.
On the other hand, there's no reason to tolerate a woman (or a man) being subjected to that kind of "jostling."
"What's your lineup?"
"Want to see a pneumatic trip stop?"
Good ones, Mike...
(especially for dumb blondes...)
Uh, Paul. You forgot the "My subway line or yours?" line. :)
>>>I think the ladies should be aware of good conversation starters. <<<
Ladies...well, there's Peggy and there's subway grrrrrrrrrrl, and there's...there's...well, there's....
www.forgotten-ny.com
and V train B47 bus!
Which reminds me, delving into my archives of antiquated slang expressions, "buss" (two "s", but pronounced the same) meant "to kiss" or "a kiss."
So who says mass transit is unromantic? :)
LOL!
"So...do you live around here often?"
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
From historical accounts and my own (covert) observations, the LIRR Rockaway ROW appears to need only tree clearing, basic leveling, the usual structural work, and signalling/trackage to make this a viable operation again. I STILL don't understand why they spent all those $$$ for the PA to build AirTrain--a completely new system--when they could have rehabbed the LIRR ROW all the way to 63 Drive, added tracks from How Beach to the terminals...it makes me wonder what they were thinking! Air Train only serves a select clientele; a subway into JFK would have served EVERYBODY...even those "shafted woodhaven riders"...
From historical accounts and my own (covert) observations, the LIRR Rockaway ROW appears to need only tree clearing, basic leveling, the usual structural work, and signalling/trackage to make this a viable operation again. I STILL don't understand why they spent all those $$$ for the PA to build AirTrain--a completely new system--when they could have rehabbed the LIRR ROW all the way to 63 Drive, added tracks from How Beach to the terminals...it makes me wonder what they were thinking!
Politics. Since it is a dedicated, internalized system, PA was able to build it from airport to peripheral locations with departure tax funds. And even so they had to fight to do it.
Air Train only serves a select clientele; a subway into JFK would have served EVERYBODY...even those "shafted woodhaven riders"...
But the right-of-way has effective NIMBY opposition.
Yeah, I know, everybody wants electricity but nobody wants the power station on their block. I understand that. But look at this. Just 200 FEET separate end-of-track on the AirTrain at How Beach from the A Train. How difficult would it have been to either bring AirTrain into the IND as a joint operation? In Chicago the El was jointly operated by multiple carriers for over 50 years. How hard, conversely, to bring the IND into JFK? A true one-seat ride from Manhattan with 2 stops in Brooklyn would have taken (historical study figures, MTA AR of 1973)...TWENTY-SEVEN MINUTES!
Just 200 FEET separate end-of-track on the AirTrain at How Beach from the A Train. How difficult would it have been to either bring AirTrain into the IND as a joint operation? In Chicago the El was jointly operated by multiple carriers for over 50 years. How hard, conversely, to bring the IND into JFK?
Just because something worked in Chicago doesn't mean that it'll work in New York. There is no Windy City equivalent of Typical New York Incompetence.
Chicago has its own problems with incompetence.
As a minor example, how long did it take them to get their act together to rebuild the Douglas branch (the one where trains would derail and fall off the elevated bridge if they went over 15 mph)? That bridge could have been featured in the movie "Cassandra Crossing."
Still, I admire the way they got the Midway Airport line built.And O'Hare has decent, if slow, subway service (and CTA added police dogs to patrol that line after complaints about gangs and rowdiness).
It should be pointed out that, to my knowledge, no train cars have ever fallen off the Douglas structures.
I also think no trains have fallen off any El structure since 1977's Loop accident that killed 11 people and injured scores more.
I've never seen on-duty police dogs on the O'Hare branch. There is a company in Chicago that trains security dogs, and these muzzled German Shepherds can be seen on various El lines throughout the city as part of their noise and traffic training.
<< There is no Windy City equivalent of Typical New York Incompetence. >>
Yeah, there is. The billion dollar south side Green line rehab with the Red Line so close was an exercise is preservationism, but totally unnecessary. Without it, they could have started on the Douglas rehab sooner, and the Ravenswood would have had 8-car trains by now.
I've looked through many of these responses and I don't see the heart of the problem mentioned - FINANCE, and limitations from the source of the PA's money.
The PA's Airtrain is paid by air traveler fees and the FAA requirement is that this money be used for airport transport ONLY. That is why the PA's past ideas were stop-less routes between the airports and Manhattan. What the PA builds can only connect to-and-from airports and not in between, so subway-less areas of Queens along the Van Wyck were out of luck.
As expensive as the Airtrain is, it is a far better deal than the monorail at Newark Airport - fabulously over budget, and saddled with a high-maintenance, one-of-a-kind system. At least JFK's Light rail is an "off-the-shelf" system that will be cheaper in the long run, and has a (distant) possiblility of being integrated into other NYC systems perhaps when the PA's airport leases expire in 2015.
Finally, the PA and MTA are fiefdoms that do not work well together. What other place still has a separate subway system (PATH)? Should have been unified long ago, with the other 3 (BMT, IRT & IND) - but that's a different thread....
I have often wondered why the various transport "fiefdoms" don't get along. Didn't the secondary effects of 9/11 teach transit operators how interdependent their individual systems are? If there is ever to be a true one-seat ride to JFK from Manhattan, there needs to be interagency cooperation first. My employers learned about interagency cooperation the HARD way on 9/11...
Do NYC Republicans get along with NYC Democrats?
Do NYC Plutocrats get along with NYC Working Folk?
So why should New York's Democrats, Republicans, Plutocrats and Working Folk get along with New Jersy's Democrats, Republicans, Plutocrats etc. etc. etc.
Humankind are teritorial beasties, and that is a fack of life. Get over it.
: ) Elias
Yes it's true that we ARE territorial beasties, but I can give you a GOOD example of why we should play nice in the sandbox. Just imagine if me (or any of the 2700 other EMT's and Paramedics who serve our city) arrived to pick you up as a patient, but were sidetracked along the way by interagency disputes. While you lay (God Forbid) dying, the powers that be argue over things like patient access (similar to trackage rights), who transports the patient (whose train runs where) and what hospital the patient--hypothetically YOU!--goes to (where the train terminates).
See the parallels? I think the analogy illustrates why interagency cooperation is so crucial. BTW: There are over THIRTY separate EMS agencies in NYC's 911 system, and we handle over a MILLION calls a year. Now if this can be done cooperatively, why not transit?
You're right.
If I recall correctly, a few years ago, did not a man die in the East River in a sunken car while a Fire Department diver and an NYPD diver got into a fistfight over who was going to fish him out? The Fire Dept. and Police Dept boat got to the scene at the same time.
(I'm not saying he would have made it even if cooperation had been perfect)
You are right of course, and I was being a little sarcastic, for they *should* get along, and they *should* get things done for the improvement of all involved. On the otherhand, you cannot really be dismayed or shocked if they cant.
I want a subway on Second Avenue, and this guy doesn;t want a subway on second avenue. And since we are both rich and can buy all of the politicians we want...
Oh well... here in our city we average about 30 ambulance calls a year. And our teritory covers just under 700 square miles. Not counting the interstate and city streets, there are only two paved roads in our teritiory. You want that ambulance *when*?
Elias
You want that ambulance *when*?
Before they open the Second Avenue Subway to the public. :-)
We (New Jersians) don't like to deal with all your New York folk because all that damned fasting we have to go through to purify ourselves of your (New Yorkians) taint.
Your post is correct.
Note that MTA had the right to build onto a ROW it owned from Howard Beach into the airport - and chose not to do so. The reasons have already been discussed here. The PA did not stop MTA from doing so; it was MTA's decision.
Three basic misconceptions in your posts:
1) You're badly underestimating the effort it would take to reactivate the Rockaway branch. In addition to the trees and the encroachments that must be dealt with, there is the issue of the ROW being much closer to people's homes than on other lines, and certainly much closer than the AirTrain ROW is to housing.
"basic leveling, the usual structural work, and signalling/trackage"
In other words, nothing to it, right? WRONG.
The LIRR's East Side Access project is underway. It will only cost a couple of hundred million or so for the tunnel boring machine and the ditch diggers create the ROW. The rest of the cost, estimated at $4 billion, is all the rest of the stuff you glossed over so lightly. And that's not including all the lawsuits that the Rockaway line would face (and that, thankfully, East Side Access will mostly be spared). Thus, the Rockaway LIRR's cost might have exceeded AirTrain's capital cost.
2) The Rockaway branch could not be run to Manhattan without East Side Access - there simply isn't room in the Penn tubes for another line. As it is, express trains from Port Washington and Huntington, for example, sometimes come to a halt in front of stop signals, waiting to cross the East River. When the 63rd Street tunnel is in operation, then we'll have a new ballgame.
2) Politics and money - Paul Matus did a pretty good job explaining this - at the most basic level, if MTA doesn't want to do something, and doesn't have a capital plan allotment with which to do it - it isn't going to happen. "Fuggedaboudid."
"I STILL don't understand why they spent all those $$$ for the PA to build AirTrain--a completely new system"
They saved YOU and a lot of other people a lot of money, actually. The LIRR would have needed a lot of taxpayer money to complete the Rockaway Line. AirTrain cost the MTA capital plan a grand total of $350 million, which went to pay to renovate Howard Beach IND and to rebuild Jamaica Station (which would have had to happen anyway). And the Port Authority threw in another $100 million to Jamaica's rebuild.
3) You're misjudging AirTrain and its value because you're too fixated on the LIRR to understand the bigger picture and fully evaluate the alternmatives.
The goal is to get passengers to the airport - by the best available means; it is NOT to use the LIRR to get them there no matter what the difficulties are.
The Van Wyck Expressway is the single best ROW in the city to get people to Kennedy. Elevated trains set far from people's homes; noiseproofing is relatively simple, and the ROW spills right into the airport terminal area. And to top it off, there was very little NIMBY to speak of. A small group of people (literally two dozen people out of 600,000 who live in the southeast Queens area) objected to AirTrain, and the only other visible opponent was an expensive airline-paid lobbyist.
In contrast, the Rockaway Line's neighbors would have been kicking and screaming their way to every congressman, Assemblyman and Senator in sight. Sheldon Silver would have nixed it; the Governor would have rejected it; Mayor Guiliani would have said "No." And all of them would have had the letters in their hands to prove it.
Politics can sometimes seem like a dirty word. But it's a part of democracy.
The Port Authority designed a train which could get around the terminals easily, and was luggage and ADA-friendly. The stations are fully ADA and luggage friendly, and baggage handling is now being planned.
"Air Train only serves a select clientele;"
That clientele includes everyone who want to go to the airport: employees (30,000 of them), flight crews and passengers. And connecting to both Howard Beach and Jamaica Station ensures that a traveler arriving at JFK can literally reach any destination he/she wants easily and in comfort, using LIRR (which is mostly ADA and luggage compliant) and the subway (which has a ways to go in that department; the E and F train's stations are now getting ADA improvements)
Go back to Subtalk's archives and look over the posts there. Also, write a polite letter to MTA about the Rockaway Line. You will get an informative answer back.
Amen! My thoughts exactly!
Some additional points:
(1) AirTrain also connects with about a dozen bus lines at Jamaica, so the Queens traveler has multiple options - LIRR, subway, and bus.
(2) If there were a dedicated LIRR service to JFK from Penn, anyone desiring to use this service would have to get to Penn first and then transfer, so there's really no one-seat ride to JFK. The AirTrain makes Jamaica the transfer point for everyone and effectively brings JFK to Jamaica Station. Customers will have the ability to check their luggage at Jamaica, from where it will sent directly to the airplane.
(3) The reactivation of the old Rockaway Branch r.o.w. south of White Pot requires massive rebuildings of overgrade bridges - structures which have been left standing without much maintenance for the last forty years. I don't even want to think of the billions required for new bridges alone.
Since they (NIMBYs) have opposition to the ROW, they should contine the subway at 66th ave on the R and G and have it stay subway until it passes the communities opposing the line, then have it emerge to meet the A train.. That would be a pretty nice costly alternative to use the ROW if not the LIRR...
If money were available to create a new underground LIRR line under the current abandoned ROW, I'm sure there would be interest.
But: 1) It would compete for priority with other projects (Second Av Subway, 7 extension to Javits, which isn'yt fully funded yet, and other projects, like a GCT to Penn commuter tunnel or more electrification in outer LIRR lines
2) You still couldn't run any trains until ESA was open for business
(but that's OK, because the tunnel and stationswouldn't be ready before 2010 anyway...)
There would still be issues with ROW encroachment, related to station placement, utility relocation, and house foundations being too close to where the tunnel would be dug).
Yes, don't forget about the 200,000 trees (mulch, anyone?) and the fact that you would have to tunnel beneath that 21-story apartment block at Union Turnpike (build a station there!). Oh, yes - East Side access. Other than that, it's a very good idea and I hope it's given some consideration.
wayne
I have walked around Union Turnpike near the ROW. The 21-story apartment building per se does not sit atop the ROW, although the parking lot does. The ROW belongs to the city.
Except during 2 peak hours in one direction, the LIRR operates below capacity to Penn Station. For those two hours, run out of Hunterspoint Avenue and catch it at Woodside. The projected ridership for Airtrain is so low (5000 Airport employess, 2000 travelers per day), it was not worth the cost. The reinforced concrete bridges are mostly in fairly good shape. There is only 1 wooden trestle that is out. Chopping down 200,000 trees doesn't cost billions, nor does soundproofing the windows on all the houses along the tracks.
Two points:
Even middays and weekends Penn Station is a tight operating environment. Besides LIRR, NJT and Amtrak trains are constantly running in and out...and there are many equipment moves to/from Sunnyside that must share track space with LIRR. Adding airport trains to the mix just makes a very difficult situation even more difficult.
Unless you have done detailed engineering inspections of the Rockaway line bridge structures, there is no way to tell if the structures are in good enough condition to carry the weight of today's heavier trains. Remember that when the line was built the LIRR used the old MP54 coaches, lighter than today's M-series equipment. My guess is that many of the bridges would need to be extensively rehabbed or in many cases replaced due to lack of use and maintenance since 1962.
Two trains an hour more they can handle. They only run 7 or 8 an hour now. NJT is not a big user of the East River tunnels off-peak in any case relaying mostly on the stub tracks 1-4.
MP54's were 67 tons, T54's were 45 tons, M-1's are 48 tons. M-3's are 56 tons.
When I look at the bridges over Jamaica or Atlantic Avenue, I don't see any crumbling concrete. They haven't gotton any maintenace in 40 years, but not any use use either. Look at the DL&W viaducts on the Cut-Off, not used in 20 years. Even NJ-DOT says they need only a minor rehab with some surface cracking. Everything the Lackawanna built was designed to last 700 years. The PRR didn't build junk either.
"When I look at the bridges over Jamaica or Atlantic Avenue, I don't see any crumbling concrete. They haven't gotton any maintenace in 40 years, but not any use use either. Look at the DL&W viaducts on the Cut-Off, not used in 20 years. Even NJ-DOT says they need only a minor rehab with some surface cracking. Everything the Lackawanna built was designed to last 700 years. The PRR didn't build junk either. "
An opinion offered without relevant professional expertise, without a license (unless you do have a PE license? and in what field?) and without malpractice insurance isn't worth the electrons it's generated with. You're entitled to it, and this is Subtalk, but the MTA came to the opposite conclusion and I'll believe them before I believe you.
"I have walked around Union Turnpike near the ROW. The 21-story apartment building per se does not sit atop the ROW, although the parking lot does. The ROW belongs to the city. "
That only covers a small part of your ROW problem.
"Except during 2 peak hours in one direction, the LIRR operates below capacity to Penn Station."
False and absurd statement. The LIRR is virtually never below capacity in the Penn tubes. Remember also that it has to share with Amtrak and even with NJ Transit for moves into the yard.
"The projected ridership for Airtrain is so low (5000 Airport employess, 2000 travelers per day), it was not worth the cost."
Those are certainly not accurate projections. Where did you get themfrom, and under what context were they offered?
"The reinforced concrete bridges are mostly in fairly good shape. There is only 1 wooden trestle that is out. "
Oh boy, I wouldn't want to be an engineer in your shoes. You'd lose so many lawsuits the state would have to yank your PE license. You'd be lucky if anybody let you near a drafting table ever again.
"Chopping down 200,000 trees doesn't cost billions, nor does soundproofing the windows on all the houses along the tracks. "
That argument is so silly I wouldn't know where to begin with it. Suffice to say I'm glad the MTA and the PA paid enough attention to this to realize the problems.
On a per mile basis ($250 million per mile) AirTrain was a BARGAIN.
On a per mile basis ($250 million per mile) AirTrain was a BARGAIN.
I can think of cheaper projects...
Aynho Junction - Bicester North part of Project Evergreen, 9˝ miles of new track, new signalling, cost Ł48.3 million ($77.3 million), cost per mile therefore Ł5.1 million ($8.1 million).
Airtrain therefore is costing over thirty times what Project Evergreen is costing. Even though it's an El, as opposed to track on the ground, the price differential makes me doubt that it is a bargain.
What makes this more remarkable is that Aynho - Bicester was done to a very tight schedule (as the other route to Birmingham, the West Coast Main Line, was due to be closed at weekends immediately after this project was completed) and was actually finished five days early.
It'snice that in England you can do cheaper projects. However, you're comparing an apple to an orange. By England standards, perhaps, AirTrain is expensive. By northeast USA standards, it is very inexpensive.
Not really. That figure is in line with the costs for the rail re-habilitation of the Atlantic City Line. From my books it cost no more than about 250 million dollars in 1989 for 50-60 miles of brand new track and signaling. NJT also recently re-habilitated the track and signaling between Netcog and Hackettstown, about 7-10 miles, and that didn't cost any great deal of money.
"From my books it cost no more than about 250 million dollars in 1989 for 50-60 miles of brand new track and signaling. NJT also recently re-habilitated the track and signaling between Netcog and Hackettstown, about 7-10 miles, and that didn't cost any great deal of money."
For commuter rail at-grade trackage with no pile driving, no elevated guideway etc.? And in 1989, remember, not 2000. But still, you make a good point.
Well we are talking about RoW rehabilitation, not new construction. Granted, the AC line had retained its original track and most of the work was running a tie/rail replacement machine down the line and then adding in the passing sidings.
The Rockaway line is 2 track, but it is also much shorter.
"Well we are talking about RoW rehabilitation, not new construction."
That was quite true (fortunately) for the Atlantic City line (there were some minor NIMBY problems though - blech! But they were overcome. It was also true for the Old Colony Plymouth line of MBTA commuter rail in Boston, which initially had major NIMBY issues. But they were overcome also.
The abandoned Rockaway Line is shorter - but this is no rehab project. This is practically asking for a new line. And with NIMBY problems that would make the Old Colony fight look like a kindergarten picnic by comparison.
$250 million a mile for ridership projected at 70 % of the Franklin shuttle - ridiculous.
< "Except during 2 peak hours in one direction, the LIRR operates below capacity to Penn Station."
False and absurd statement. The LIRR is virtually never below capacity in the Penn tubes. Remember also that it has to share with Amtrak and even with NJ Transit for moves into the yard. >
If they can run 30 trains per hour in the rush, plus Hunterspoint moves, plus Amtrak, plus NJT moves, 10 can be handled in the non-rush. Nothing obsurd about that. What you say is a civil-servant cop-out.
<"The projected ridership for Airtrain is so low (5000 Airport employess, 2000 travelers per day), it was not worth the cost."
Those are certainly not accurate projections. Where did you get themfrom, and under what context were they offered? >
Those are the Port Authority's projections.
<"The reinforced concrete bridges are mostly in fairly good shape. There is only 1 wooden trestle that is out. "
Oh boy, I wouldn't want to be an engineer in your shoes. You'd lose so many lawsuits the state would have to yank your PE license. You'd be lucky if anybody let you near a drafting table ever again. >
If the situation were as bad as that, they'd have been removed years ago from fear of collapse. They can even withstand the constant weight of all those trees on all those overpasses.
<"Chopping down 200,000 trees doesn't cost billions, nor does soundproofing the windows on all the houses along the tracks. "
That argument is so silly I wouldn't know where to begin with it. Suffice to say I'm glad the MTA and the PA paid enough attention to this to realize the problems.>
I don't care what the Parking Authority concluded. The came up with a proprietary system to transport their own emplyees and not jeopardize their parking revenues. Everything else followed from that. The MTA has no interest in the matter. Ditto with Newark Airport monorail instead of a PATH extension.
"If they can run 30 trains per hour in the rush, plus Hunterspoint moves, plus Amtrak, plus NJT moves, 10 can be handled in the non-rush. Nothing obsurd about that."
For a couple of hours a day, that might be true. And after midnight.
"What you say is a civil-servant cop-out."
If you want to deny credibility to somebody else, make sure your own arguments actually hold water. They don't.
"If the situation were as bad as that, they'd have been removed years ago from fear of collapse. They can even withstand the constant weight of all those trees on all those overpasses."
That statement all by itself shows you have little or no practical knowledge of civil engineering. Like I said before, I give maximal credence when I see a PE license and malpractice insurance to back it up. You have neither.
"The MTA has no interest in the matter."
Correct! That's reality. Get over it.
"Ditto with Newark Airport monorail instead of a PATH extension."
False statement. The two are not exclusive. The PATH extension is being studied by the PA. There is a realistic chance it will happen ultimately, if enough people keep asking for it. PATH trains will take passengers to the EWR rail stations; hopefully PATH will also build a couple more stations along the way between EWR (which is actually in Elizabeth, if I am not mistaken) and Newark.
If you want this to happen, stop whining on Subtalk about it, get off your butt (after clearing a reality check!), and invest in some paper and ink. Address your letter of encouragement regarding a PATH extension to Michael DePallo, PATH Director, One PATH Plaza, Jersey City NJ (don't remember the zip code).
I think a PATH extension is a great idea, and I'd like to see it happen. I think it can. You can help make it happen.
<"If they can run 30 trains per hour in the rush, plus Hunterspoint moves, plus Amtrak, plus NJT moves, 10 can be handled in the non-rush. Nothing obsurd about that."
For a couple of hours a day, that might be true. And after midnight.>
Your point was the tunnels and Harold area are so incredibly busy off-peak, they can't possible handle another two trains an hour.
That is ridiculous, especially after midnight.
"What you say is a civil-servant cop-out."
Means no-can-do philosphy.
<"If the situation were as bad as that, they'd have been removed years ago from fear of collapse. They can even withstand the constant weight of all those trees on all those overpasses."
That statement all by itself shows you have little or no practical knowledge of civil engineering. Like I said before, I give maximal credence when I see a PE license and malpractice insurance to back it up. You have neither. >
The statement also shows the concrete structures are train-worthy as they are with only minor viaduct rehab needed such as been done to Valley Stream, Lynbrook, Rockville Centre, or the Whitepot tunnel would have caved in years ago from 400 trains a day at 80MPH roaring over them.
As for the PE comments, the Par,king Authority would do well to hire one some day. The NWK monorail had to be shut down from corrosion after a year of service. We'll see how long the Van Wyck El lasts before it cracks.
Or an 18-wheeler slams into one of the supports.
Or an 18-wheeler slams into one of the supports.
We can make it happen with the LIRR ROW rehab, too. This is New York, the land where nothing is impossible. (Don't believe it? Read the "Guinness Book of Superlatives" about NYC someday.) I have clearly struck a chord (a nerve?) with many of you by just raising the subject. I'm certain a lot of non-railfans who vote, too, just like us, would weigh in on this. I'm writing to Mr. Kalikow tonight, and I intend to present my historical case as well as many of the fine observations everybody made here on Sub Talk.
Maybe someday my sons will be able to get on the IND in Inwood Park or Elmhurst and get off at the IAB in JFK...having never changed trains. How about it, gang?
This is New York, the land where nothing is impossible.
Please delete the stray "im."
LOL!!!!!
"Maybe someday my sons will be able to get on the IND in Inwood Park or Elmhurst and get off at the IAB in JFK...having never changed trains. How about it, gang? "
Well, since I see absolutely nothing wrong with riding AirTrain (and having seen and used arrangements in Washington, Atlanta, Philadelphia and Boston), I would say there are far better uses for our hard-earned money than simply funding what is no more than a railbuff's obsession about a particular type of train going to the airport.
Now, if you told me you'd like to invest in additional subway services to neighborhoods which have never seen a train, I say go for it. As far as changing trains goes, nobody really cares about that. It's a red herring. Just make sure any needed changes are ADA and luggage friendly.
Want to fight for a do-able subway airport project? MTA does want to build a subway to La Guardia (and has money already in the budget, set aside for it), and the PA is receptive to extending PATH to EWR Rail. Whip out your pens and start a campaign there.
Would a LGA Subway be an extension of the Astoria "N" Line? I could go for that, or even an out-and-back from QB.
On hold since Astoria went ballistic at a '99 hearing. (Anyone heard anything lately?)
I'll say it AGAIN: Why does everybody want electricity but no one wants a power station on their block?
I've figured they'd wait until the JFK system was running, then jam the LGA extension down Astoria's throat.
"eminent domain"? (LOL)
I believe the only obstacles are political. As a state agency, I believe MTA has all the tools it needs to do it, but just has to withstand some local heat. And the Guv is past his election now.
I'll say it AGAIN: Why does everybody want electricity but no one wants a power station on their block?
1) Because they are selfish,
2) Because they can put it on *your* block.
Elias
["I'll say it AGAIN: Why does everybody want electricity but no one wants a power station on their block?"]
Could it possibly be that your property values might go down? I mean, saving for years for a house, then getting a discount for being next to the tracks (a double bonus for railfans), but then having your whole investment go down the drain by having an UGLY substation next door. And to make matters worse, if you have kids you have the third rail to worry about. Because as any parent knows, no matter how much you tell a kid not to do something, like cross the tracks, they're gonna do it anyway.
I've always thought that when a public project is built somewhere, they shouldn't just buy off the property they need to build it, but also pay for the neighbors' loss in property value.
And until then, not only will there be NIMBY's, but many of them will be RIGHT.
As a homeowner myself, I can understand why some people might worry about resale value if a ROW was operating behind their house. (You're right, I and my kids would think it COOL to have the subway or LIRR abutting our backyard-but we're off our medication anyway.) However, public works projects are intended to benefit ALL the public, not just the NIMBYs, and these projects have to go somewhere.
It's been my experience that sometimes you can't win for trying. In 1980, when the LIRR wanted to complete its grade separation program on the Babylon line in Massapequa Park, here's what happened: Citing safety concerns at the Unqua Road grade crossing, the LIRR notified everybody about its upcoming grade sep plans. The community went ballistic, saying a concrete elevated structure running through the heart of town would be an eyesore. Not one word about their kids, who wouldn't have to negotiate the dangerous grade crossing anymore. The residents wanted their "picturesque" wodden grade-level station.
Public works benefit even those people who are not inconvenienced by them. It isn't fair to have one part of the population have only the benefits. Therefore, the part of the population that has to suffer the negative aspects has to be paid off.
No matter what they want to do, people are always going to complain. There are some people that like to complain just for the hell of complaining.
However, as for reusing the existing Rockaway ROW, most of the people who bought their homes along the ROW did know it was there, and if it is there, there is always the possibility of it being used again, no matter who says it would never be used again. People should do their homework before buying, and if something could happen that they wouldn't want to live near, they should have bought elsewhere.
The same goes for even in use ROW, such as the LIRR Montauk branch in Queens. Everytime a plan came up to use the line for more passeneger traffic (even if temporary reroutes, such as for the Harold Project in the early 90's), the people of Glendale literally threw themselves across the tracks. Then they complain about the NYA running freight over the tracks. The tracks were ther long before anyone bought their houses along the ROW. What did they think the tracks were there for? There is a reason that some homes may be a bit cheaper than others. The problem is people want a good deal, but then don't want to accept the reason why it may have been a good deal. Again, if even the slight possibility of trains running over the ROW, either active (as with the Montauk Branch) or inactive (as with the Rockaway) bothers these people, then they shouldn't have bought/rented along the ROW.
Hear,hear.
With some folk, they ordered their brains scrambled when they were offered to them.
"Everytime a plan came up to use the line for more passeneger traffic (even if temporary reroutes, such as for the Harold Project in the early 90's), the people of Glendale literally threw themselves across the tracks. "
No, SOME people in Glendale did. You're implying that everbody in Glendale is a low grade moron and a hypocrite, and you must know enough about Queens politics to know that's not true.
NJ Transit handled it right. When some people threw themselves across the tracks of the newly set up Atlantic City rail line, NJ Transit and Amtrak started running the trains anyway, and NJ Transit politely reminded people that crossing the tracks except at approved crossings was dangerous.
Today, places like Hammonton, Egg Harbor City and Cherry Hill benefit from rail service, nobody's property values suffered anything (just the opposite), the morons got over it and found new complaints for their beer and pretzels at the bar, and life goes on.
It would be nice if MTA could do a little of that now and then.
No, SOME people in Glendale did. You're implying that everbody in Glendale is a low grade moron and a hypocrite, and you must know enough about Queens politics to know that's not true.
No, I did not mean/say that. The stink along the lines came from Glendale. I was a Glendale Resident at the time, and even though I would have been one of the ones that would have loved extra trains, I in NO WAY said ANYTHING close to saying the people of Glendale are "low grade morons and hypocrites". YOU said that. I said "the people of Glendale literally "threw themselves on the tracks" (and even laid in front of trains). That is a fact. Some of the people "on the tracks" were local politicians who represent the "people" of Glendale, so if a politician representing "the people" lay on the tracks, what I said is accurate.
"The stink along the lines came from Glendale. I was a Glendale Resident at the time, and even though I would have been one of the ones that would have loved extra trains, I in NO WAY said ANYTHING close to saying the people of Glendale are "low grade morons and hypocrites". "
OK. However, the "people of Glendale" isn't accurate either. A few loudmouths (heads of "neighborhood associations" is more like it).
"YOU said that."
No. My post pretty clearly indicates I don't think they are. The ones who threw themselves on the tracks are, but they don't represent the majority of people in the area, though they want to pretend they do.
"I said "the people of Glendale literally "threw themselves on the tracks" (and even laid in front of trains). That is a fact."
Not really. See above.
"Some of the people "on the tracks" were local politicians who represent the "people" of Glendale,"
looking for a photo op catering to the bigots in the community, no doubt (skin color does matter to some politicians, esp. in Queens)
so if a politician representing "the people" lay on the tracks, what I said is accurate.
Nobody on this board is actually stupid enough to believe that - and certainly not you.
:0)
By the way, I'm not trying to insult you - I'm just being very satirical; about Glendale politicians.
I know, and anytime we can laugh at politicians it's a good thing......
The ones who threw themselves on the tracks are, but they don't represent the majority of people in the area, though they want to pretend they do.
LOL, now that I agree with. Throwing oneself on the tracks is "moronic" and yes they do pretend to represent the majority of people. And the sight of it with the local politicians and " loudmouths" does look very idiotic.
looking for a photo op catering to the bigots in the community, no doubt (skin color does matter to some politicians, esp. in Queens)
In this case, I really don't think race was even a remote issue. I remember it from the extra trains they ran through due to the Harold Project. It may have been a "fear" issue for when some ideas of turning the line over to the subway arose at times, but I have no idea about those instances.
so if a politician representing "the people" lay on the tracks, what I said is accurate.
Nobody on this board is actually stupid enough to believe that - and certainly not you.
LOL, and again, like you said with the "loudmouths", the "claim" to.
There is a difference between the Rockaway ROW and the Montauk ROW. The Montauk ROW is still active and so anybody who buys near them should expect that the service can be ramped up for whatever reason.
The Rockaway ROW is nowhere near working order. Any effort to restore service on the line would require pretty much the same effort as building a new line. By buying a house near the Rockaway ROW, it's a safe bet that nothing will happen, and if it does, it should be treated like a regular project should (pay off the neighbors).
Sensible...
I have to admit as a railfan I love grade crossings. When I go from my house in East Meadow to my inlaws in New Hyde Park by car there are two ways I go.Meadowbrook to Old Country Rd, then Willis Av so I can pass the double set of crossings there.Hempstead Tnpk to New Hyde Park Rd (it might be Franklin Av there, I'm not sure) then N/B on NHP Rd so I can cross both the Hempstead Branch and the Main Line. I used to take Herricks Rd, but that's not fun anymore!
I do remember, however, that there were an awful lot of car/train accidents at Unqua Rd and that was why they had to do it. I also remember the crossing at Merrick Av at Merrick Station and I have vague memories as a young tot of the crossings at Hicksville Station at rts 106 & 107.
By the way, does anyone remember the old Green Mountain Race Track in Vermont. There was a RR crossing right in the middle of the parking lot!!
I also love railroad crossings. I think the Babylon Line (although a great line from a transit aspect, and a smart move to have elevated) is a rather boring line. It was a lot more interesting when it had the old stations and grade crossings. I never saw it that way, so I am only speaking from photos I have seen. However I do vaguely remember them finishing the final piece around Massapequa Park when I was a kid.
Although a necessary project, I feel something was lost when they raised Hicksville, the Babylon Branch, etc.
Yeah. I remember stepping off a rush hour "wrong-railed" electric local at New Hyde Park one winter night, walking to the crossing, then waiting patiently for the train to clear the intersection. A couple of seconds after the last car passed me, the Huntington Express rocketed by, doing MAS (or even more. I know LIRR limits trains to 80, but I swear Scout's Honor this puppy was moving 90). A combination of that blasting horn, the square wheels the M1 is famous for (allergic to the truing machine), the clanging bell at the crossing, well, it was all very impressive.
SQUARE wheels? With the M-1's riding qualities, I thought they were PENTAGONAL.;-)
Yes indead, it is very impressive! And fortunately you can still get something close to that at New Hyde Park, although I'm sure much slower now. I do believe they are talking about removing the grade crossings at New Hyde Park also. Although, I think it just talk at this time. If not, the mainline may look something like the Babylon Branch in the future - a pity.
Have they reduced MAS there (I hope not).
The state provided grant money to remove crossings along that line some years ago. Recall that Mineola had two RR crossings, one on each end of the station. The trains are now on an overpass on one side; the road was sunk into a rolling dip, so to speak. I don't know if the other side has been done yet.
The state provided grant money to remove crossings along that line some years ago. Recall that Mineola had two RR crossings, one on each end of the station. The trains are now on an overpass on one side; the road was sunk into a rolling dip, so to speak. I don't know if the other side has been done yet.
That was the Herricks Road grade crossing, elimination of which became a priority after a vanload of teens tried to race a train to the crossing (it was a tie, unfortunately for them). Priority notwithstanding, it took years to complete the work, and of course the job went massively over budget.
I'm from Merrick. We used to kill off one person a month just before they elevated the thing. Yes the station *was* pretty, I loved coming into the station, standing on the bottom step of the coach, holding the handrail and leaning over the edge as the train swept into the station.
All of that is gone now, but the new elevated structure is NOT like a noisy el at all, but very quiet, you hardle ever notice the trains, and if you are on the platform and have your back turned to the train, youll almost not hear it sneak up behind you.
Besides, traffic is much better in Merrick now. Instead of two grade crossings there are three that cross the line (not counting Babylon Turnpike in either case.) The town is more open rather than being divided. It was more divided when the trains were on the ground.
Elias
Elias, I agree with you, I even said that in my post. It was a needed project, and did help the area. It is in no way like an 'elevated" structure. As a transit line, the Babylon Branch is probably the LIRR's showpiece line. I never said it isn't a great line.
However, as a railfan line, it is rather boring. I still say that when they raised the line, something was lost. The Babylon line is no boubolic line anymore.
No contest though about whether it was a good idea, or necessary, I agree completely. It's just like I feel about the old diesel trains. The new ones were very necessary, but something was lost when they got the new bi-levels.
As an occasional user of the Montauk Branch, rest assured that I am very comfortable and happy speeding through the Babylon Branch on the Bi-levels (it shouldn't be any other way), but I hope this clarifies what I meant in my other post - the Babylon Branch was "ruined" in a railroading sense.
The Babylon line is no boubolic line anymore.
I remember riding the train with my father.
In Merrick we had *Automatic Crossing Gates* that went up and down all by themselves! WOW, I remember when they were handcranked.
But Freeport *still* had the handcranked crossing gates, and a man who would come out to crank the gates for all of the trains.
My Father said that they were not going to change the gates at Freeport, because they were going to ELEVATE the line instead.
I remember such a hastle that was in Freeport, because they had to move the line aside, and then elevate it and then move the trains over and remove the temporary tracks.
Of course they did the same thing in Merrick in its turn, but in Merrick the whole station had to be moved west of Merrick Avenue in order to provide the high level platforms, and then later to do this song and dance to elevate the line.
I do remmeber going into work one afternoon, and driving my little car right up to the station house (in the 30 minute parking zone) and getting on a train for the city. A cop watched me get on the train. Maybe he figgured to give me a ticket, but on the very next train back again, my dad got off the train, got into the car and drove home. So much for the officer's vigilence.
Elias
Gee, when I saw you responded to my post I could have sworn it was going to be about "ageism" for my comment about kids not listening! Thanks for not mentioning it! :)
Kids often DON'T listen! If I sent 20,000 4-year-olds to Iraq I could win the war merely by telling them, "DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING!":-}
Gee, when I saw you responded to my post I could have sworn it was going to be about "ageism" for my comment about kids not listening! Thanks for not mentioning it! :)
But kids don't listen! Or maybe they do, but choose not to take the advice, either way, that's truth, not ageism.
>>> But kids don't listen! Or maybe they do, but choose not to take the advice, either way, that's truth, not ageism. <<<
But if society chooses not to let 5 year olds drive an automobile, or vote, or engage in sex, you have argued in the past that it was unacceptable ageism. Have you started to gain wisdom with your advancing age?
Tom
But if society chooses not to let 5 year olds drive an automobile, or vote, or engage in sex, you have argued in the past that it was unacceptable ageism. Have you started to gain wisdom with your advancing age?
No, I haven't lost any wisdom.
No driving age should exist. Since tests are already required to qualify to drive, it is superfluous.
No voting age should exist, if a person wishes to vote and fills out the necessary form, he or she must have the right to do so.
No law on age of consent should exist. Therefore there should be no such crime as "statutory rape." A court can decide whether it was consensual just as a court decides for all cases involving parties who have travelled over 10,518,052,204 miles.
So in other words, you wouldn't mind joining the Man-Boy Love Association. You also wouldn't mind having sex with a six year old girl if she asked for it, and think that it's perfectly OK for an eight-year old boy to bring a real, loaded gun to school with him if that is what he thought best to do.
So in other words, you wouldn't mind joining the Man-Boy Love Association. You also wouldn't mind having sex with a six year old girl if she asked for it
Where did I ever say this? Just tell me where I said this?
This kind of crap isn't worthy of a know-it-all like you. And YOU were the one who told me not to lower myself to a personal level.
If any six-year old was qualified to consent to sex, then YES, consensual sex with said individual should be legal. Since there is no such person, it is irrelevant. I however object to using frequent orbital miles for ANY qualifications. If a crime has occured, let a judge and jury decide.
Ron: "So in other words, you wouldn't mind joining the Man-Boy Love Association. You also wouldn't mind having sex with a six year old girl if she asked for it "
A.P. "Where did I ever say this? Just tell me where I said this?"
Hey, I'm just trying to find out where you've placed the limits. I'm also trying to find out how consistent this is (note Old Tom's reply to you).
"If any six-year old was qualified to consent to sex, then YES, consensual sex with said individual should be legal. Since there is no such person, it is irrelevant.
I however object to using frequent orbital miles for ANY qualifications. If a crime has occured, let a judge and jury decide."
OK. Do we have enough judges for this? Your idea sounds interesting, but I dn't know if I want to live in a world where 1 out of four people is a judge...after all, without rules we'd all be groping around looking for guidance...
OK. Do we have enough judges for this? Your idea sounds interesting, but I dn't know if I want to live in a world where 1 out of four people is a judge...after all, without rules we'd all be groping around looking for guidance...
Since all of these cases go to trial anyway, unless there's a guilty plea, there won't be a need for more judges.
But obviously a lot of social revolutions involved major changes with society, such as the abolition of slavery, and the extension of the right to vote to people without property, racial minorities and women.
I don't think we should continue this discussion on Subtalk, we have gone far afield and into too controversial a topic.
Also, let me apologize for some of the low blows I have taken in this argument.
"Since all of these cases go to trial anyway, unless there's a guilty plea, there won't be a need for more judges. "
I think you screwed up something there in the translation....
"I don't think we should continue this discussion on Subtalk, we have gone far afield and into too controversial a topic."
What? How DARE you insinuate that we are being controversial or afield? Why, there could be a revolution tomorrow and Subtalk would be all about club sandwiches, chicken parmigiana and the other dishes offered by that sandwich shop chain, instead of trains. It just takes one man with an empty stomach to change the world...
:0) 8-) :-) 80)
"Also, let me apologize for some of the low blows I have taken in this argument. "
No apology required.
Why not? It seems 1 out of 4 people is a LAWYER...(LOL)
Ah! You got me!
Quick: Why doesn't God destroy Satan?
Answer: Because even God needs a good lawyer now and then..
Why not? It seems 1 out of 4 people is a LAWYER...(LOL)
"parties who have travelled over 10,518,052,204 miles"
Please note that this number has 8 excess digits of supposed accuracy.
Since the earth revolves around its axis, people closer to the equator travel further than those at the poles. This makes a difference of over 1 million miles a year even when comparing Latitude 30 with Latitude 45.
Also, why is the sun the center of your universe? The solar system also travels relative to the neighboring stars.
Indeed.
But in order to travel that many miles, don't you have to obtain a Captain's license for a Constitution class starship? Do they let people under18 into the Space Academy?
Travel about the Earth's axis and around space isn't used to calculate qualifications. Only distance travelled around the sun counts.
An unpopular view here, I'm sure, but I agree. We do need to be careful about how this is applied, but something should be done. (And it shouldn't be limited to property holders -- I know you're not a fan of renters, but they have the same quality-of-life rights as owners.)
Bravo!
And also the same rights to affordable rail transportation in their neighborhoods as owners.
Nobody has rights to affordable RAIL transportation in their neighborhood, otherwise every low density backwater neighborhood would have to have a subway station.
"Nobody has rights to affordable RAIL transportation in their neighborhood, otherwise every low density backwater neighborhood would have to have a subway station. "
Your statement is illogical. Reread it. I said AFFORDABLE. By definition, a backwater not within the service limits of a transit system would not justify investment in rail.
The Rockaways are considered by some to be a backwater - but rail transit is crucial there.
Yes and over 100,000 people live in the Rock. Hardly low density. Your assessment of rail transit being crucial there is RIGHT ON!
Your statement is illogical. Reread it. I said AFFORDABLE. By definition, a backwater not within the service limits of a transit system would not justify investment in rail.
Sorry, but YOUR statement is illogical. You never said "Everyone has rights to affordable rail transit unless they live outside the service limits of a transit system."
Reread it.
"You never said "Everyone has rights to affordable rail transit unless they live outside the service limits of a transit system.""
I apologize for not realizing Ihad to be that explicit about it.
An unpopular view here, I'm sure, but I agree. We do need to be careful about how this is applied, but something should be done. (And it shouldn't be limited to property holders -- I know you're not a fan of renters, but they have the same quality-of-life rights as owners.)
My point about the payoffs is to offset the loss of property value. It would have nothing to do quality of life.
Renters would be equally treated when it comes to things like installing new soundproof insulation, if some things like that are used instead of financial payments.
"My point about the payoffs is to offset the loss of property value. It would have nothing to do quality of life."
The trouble with that is, that you are referring to what is mostly a myth (but one that served as an excellent code word for opportunist bigots, among others), and has been for 30 years.
How is that mostly a myth? Building negative projects next to houses causes the property to go down, nobody wants to live near a sewage treatment plant. Or is that only oppurtunistic bigots who don't want to live next to a sewage treatment plant?
You're mixing up a lot of things which don't belong together.
Take modern transit siting and construction out of your argument, and you have a point (I am not including the Rockaway ROW in this part of the thread). Otherwise you're simply repeating ignorant nonsense for its own sake.
You however are refining the argument to extreme specifics in order to make yourself look right at any cost.
You are right when it comes to "modern transit siting and construction." But I was not talking about modern transit siting and construction. If I was, then I would have no reason to bring up the matter about financial payoffs and mitigation.
"But I was not talking about modern transit siting and construction. If I was, then I would have no reason to bring up the matter about financial payoffs and mitigation. "
OK. I'm glad you posted that.
I think we agree that the Rockaway ROW is something that would cause trouble in the way you describe.
Are there other upcoming transit or commuter rail proposals or projects underway which would cause you concern?
Is a lease worth nothing in your eyes?
If I sign a one-year lease for an apartment at its market value of $1,000 per month, and three months later somebody (whether public or private) does something that reduces its market value to $500 per month, I am no less entitled to collect damages of $500 per month for the remaining nine months of my lease than the landlord is entitled to collect damages on the reduction in the value of his property.
If you prefer, think of the lease as a piece of property worth (in this case) $12,000 at signing, but later reduced to $7,500 due to the new power plant (or whatever) next door.
I agree. While renters certainly do not have as much vested interest in an area as an owner does, they certainly do have an interest.
A good example is the area facing the WTC site. Many renters saw their premium apartments facing the WTC turn almost worthless in a matter of hours. People paid big bucks for the view of the WTC, etc, not a view of a dump, and now a construction site. While this situation is a bit different than a power plant or whatever being built near someone's home (rented or owned) it's the same market conditions.
While renters certainly do not have as much vested interest in an area as an owner does,
Not necessarily.
A long-term renter has much more of a vested interest in the area than an absentee landlord does.
(Rent control was brought up elsewhere, I think in another thread. Without passing judgment, I'll point out that this is often the case under rent control: rent control encourages long-term rentals but also gives the landlord less of an incentive to care about the property -- especially, in both cases, in an area where market rents have tended to increase over time.)
If I sign a one-year lease for an apartment at its market value of $1,000 per month, and three months later somebody (whether public or private) does something that reduces its market value to $500 per month, I am no less entitled to collect damages of $500 per month for the remaining nine months of my lease than the landlord is entitled to collect damages on the reduction in the value of his property.
In that situation, it probably would make sense just to move out and find another apartment. You'd lose your security deposit, but you wouldn't be faced with paying $1,000 per month for nine months on an apartment that's now only worth $500 per month. Moving out would be a way of cutting your losses.
A practical approach. If the landlord found half his/her tenants wanting to do the same thing, maybe the rent asked would drop.
If the landlord wanted to take you to court you can still be liable for all the rent remaining on your lease, not just the security deposit. And rightfully so.
It doesn't work that way. A lease is a contract. I can't just walk off and leave my end of the deal unfulfilled.
Besides, moving can be a substantial hardship, financially and otherwise.
I've always thought that when a public project is built somewhere, they shouldn't just buy off the property they need to build it, but also pay for the neighbors' loss in property value.
That might not be a bad idea with respect to some public-works projects. It's largely irrelevant with respect to rail transit projects, however, as they usually increase property values.
As an amendment to my previous responses to you: Within only the specific context othe Rockaway ROW, you have a good point (and Rockaway isn't coming back anytime soon - or perhaps ever).
"Could it possibly be that your property values might go down? I mean, saving for years for a house, then getting a discount for being next to the tracks (a double bonus for railfans), but then having your whole investment go down the drain by having an UGLY substation next door"
That is an issue for some ROW, especially those in older built-up areas where it's difficult to separate them from people's houses. The abandoned Rockaway Line is a prime example. If you can put the train in a culvert oron an elevated, preferably on its own median (like Miami Metrorail or LA's Green Line) so much the better.
A substation must be cited carefully.
However, for most new projects it is NOT true. In fact, studies consistently document that passenger rail projects have no effect on property values except where you approach stations, and then property values increase sharply, sometimes doubling. This was true in NY, Atlanta, San Francisco, and Washington DC.
"And to make matters worse, if you have kids you have the third rail to worry about. Because as any parent knows, no matter how much you tell a kid not to do something, like cross the tracks, they're gonna do it anyway. "
That's why you have to properly isolate the ROW. But listing that as a reason not to build a ral system is dishonest, disingenuous. It's illogical NIMBY at its worst.
That's why you have to properly isolate the ROW. But listing that as a reason not to build a ral system is dishonest, disingenuous. It's illogical NIMBY at its worst
Good Points. I agree with that. Unfortunately, that is a card that they usually use to instal a "fear" factor to get more people to jump onboard against moving projects forward.
Agreed!
By the way, in my previous post I should have written "sited," not "cited." A very dumb mistake. I apologize.
However, for most new projects it is NOT true. In fact, studies consistently document that passenger rail projects have no effect on property values except where you approach stations, and then property values increase sharply, sometimes doubling. This was true in NY, Atlanta, San Francisco, and Washington DC.
If you live in a quiet location, and then all of a sudden noisy trains pass your window, your property values WILL go down.
If you live near a station, the trains aren't as noisy, and there's a station so it's even.
If you live a short block from the station, it's still convenient, it's not significantly noisy and so there are NO disadvantages.
The people disadvantaged should be paid off. They then get to share equal benefit in the new project with those not disadvantaged.
"If you live in a quiet location, and then all of a sudden noisy trains pass your window, your property values WILL go down. "
There are no recent examples of that effect happening. No one has experienced a loss of property values in any recently built transit system - Washington Metrorail, MARTA, NYC Transit at Roosevelt Island and Jamaica (of course that's subway, not elevated).
"If you live near a station, the trains aren't as noisy, and there's a station so it's even."
False statement, according to all available studies and actual experience. Property values rise near stations. It's unequivocal. No down effect. It's not controversial.
"If you live a short block from the station, it's still convenient, it's not significantly noisy and so there are NO disadvantages"
You are obviously not familiar with transit and property developments over the past 20 years. I encourage you to do some reading.
"There are no recent examples of that effect happening."
But perhaps that is because any elevated or surface level transit system that is within 100 feet of a residence is shot down before it ever gets built. Do you have any recent examples where elevated or surface level lines have been built in close proximity to residences at all?
Then we can ask if property values have gone up or down there.
"But perhaps that is because any elevated or surface level transit system that is within 100 feet of a residence is shot down before it ever gets built. Do you have any recent examples where elevated or surface level lines have been built in close proximity to residences at all? "
That's just my point. Modern transit systems are not built that way anymore (and haven't been for 30 years). And when system replacement occurs (sucxh as elevating the line in Merrick - see another recent post) the noise problem is often ameliorated.
This is why the Rockaway ROW is not suitable for redevelopment (unless peoplew's homes are taken by sale or forced sale through eminent domain so that the nearest house is further away), but the Van Wyck was.
A variant: In Los Angeles, the Century Freeway was derided because people were afraid property values would drop next to it. Now, that was a freeway project. I don't know if property values dropped there next to the freeway or not. However, the Green Line's operation along the median would have been expected to soften that blow a bit, in areas within a few blocks of a station.
But perhaps that is because any elevated or surface level transit system that is within 100 feet of a residence is shot down before it ever gets built. Do you have any recent examples where elevated or surface level lines have been built in close proximity to residences at all? "
That's just my point. Modern transit systems are not built that way anymore (and haven't been for 30 years). And when system replacement occurs (sucxh as elevating the line in Merrick - see another recent post) the noise problem is often ameliorated.
The LIRR in Merrick is a good example, it is as close to an apartment building as any along the Jamaica Avenue el, yet it is as I have said, constructed so that the trains are quiet. The porperty values most certainly did go up, and the neighborhood was markedly improved (over a surface running railroad, with 3rd rails at ground level.
Elias
At the risk of getting a lot of hate e-mail, I think opposition to transit projects has a lot to do with the way transit expansions change the demographics of a given neighborhood. In other words, the subway expands and bigotry does the rest to change the nabe. Far Rock (where I grew up) is an EXCELLENT example.
When the 1956 extension of the IND was completed to the Rockaways, Far Rock's demographics showed it to be largely white. After subway access made it easier (and cheaper) to go to Manhattan, middle class blacks began to find Far Rock attractive in the late 1960s. The schools were good, the crime rate was low, and, of course there was Playland and the beach.
Now, the whites could have stayed and made Far Rock a mixed nabe, but almost all of them moved out by 1980. (The city and real estate people have something to answer for in that they encouraged the white folks' ungrounded "fears" about the black families coming in, but I digress.) Anyway, the interesting thing is: There are about sixty blocks of PRIME BEACHFRONT PROPERTY with on-line subway access in Far Rock from B.36 St. to B.68 S., (interrupted only by Ocean Village at B.54) which is UNDEVELOPED. It runs from the El to the Boardwalk, and in all the time the subway has run to the Rockaways, NOTHING has EVER been built there.
So, maybe the NIMBYs are not resistant to transit because of trains. Maybe they know that "falling property values" is code for "the rest of the city might move in here".
I'm waiting for the avalanche of hatemasil...
Falling property values can certainly be a code phrase with less savory meanings attached. On the other hand, no one wants trains 10 feet from their back windows*, which is what would happen if the LIRR Rockaway branch was reestablished.
As I understand it, that line runs between 99th and 100th Streets, with the houses fronting on those streets and backing onto the ROW. Queens streets are pretty closely spaced, so that's not much room for a rail line between the houses.
*Though some people who need low rents will seek out apartments that front on an El because it's what they can afford. That doesn't mean they like it.
True. But folks who live nowhere near the train will complain if transit service is proposed for their neighborhood. Not all NIMBYs live adjacent to the tracks. Good point, though.
Interesting observation.
Perhaps subway ROW improvements, such as sound barriers, and city-sponsored landscaping improveents or beach enhancements might help.
Is that part of the Rockaways an Enterprise Zone?
It should have been. Imagine this, though: Casino gambling in the Rock, covered by an existing subway line with plenty of room for a few more tph, on beachfront property. The casino operators pay their taxes to the city, tourism and construction drive a new job market, some of this vacant land gets good housing to support all those new workers, transit virtually pays for itself. They tried to suggest this in the state legislature in 1977, but the pols shot it down. How about it in the 21st century?
>>> the whites could have stayed and made Far Rock a mixed nabe, but almost all of them moved out by 1980 <<<
Is this the whole story? Weren't there low income housing projects built in the Rockaways in the ‘70s?
>>> There are about sixty blocks of PRIME BEACHFRONT PROPERTY with on-line subway access in Far Rock from B.36 St. to B.68 S. <<<
But is this property for sale? If it is being held off the market for a tax writeoff or future speculation it may not be the fault of the subway. The other possibility is the property is too high priced to support single family homes (it will never rival the Hamptons or Newport), and the zoning and infrastructure (water, sewers) is not there for high rises.
Tom
1) The public housing along Beach Channel Drive went up in the late '50s/early '60s, with Redfern Housing on Beach Channel Drive predating the IND extension by four years.
2) The existing vacant land along Rock Fwy/Edgemere Ave. has been that way for half a century. Transit expansion usually brings development, but this never happened in Rockaway. According to the property rolls, this is all undeveloped, unsold land just waiting to be purchased.
As has been noted here before, the city often uses the Far Rockaway housing projects as a dumping ground for troublesome tenants who gotten kicked out of projects elsewhere in the city, for things like selling drugs out of their apartments. I guess the idea is that Far Rockaway's isolation means that the troublemakers are essentially out of sight, out of mind.
At the risk of getting a lot of hate e-mail, I think opposition to transit projects has a lot to do with the way transit expansions change the demographics of a given neighborhood. In other words, the subway expands and bigotry does the rest to change the nabe. Far Rock (where I grew up) is an EXCELLENT example.
When the 1956 extension of the IND was completed to the Rockaways, Far Rock's demographics showed it to be largely white. After subway access made it easier (and cheaper) to go to Manhattan, middle class blacks began to find Far Rock attractive in the late 1960s. The schools were good, the crime rate was low, and, of course there was Playland and the beach.
Now, the whites could have stayed and made Far Rock a mixed nabe, but almost all of them moved out by 1980. (The city and real estate people have something to answer for in that they encouraged the white folks' ungrounded "fears" about the black families coming in, but I digress.) Anyway, the interesting thing is: There are about sixty blocks of PRIME BEACHFRONT PROPERTY with on-line subway access in Far Rock from B.36 St. to B.68 S., (interrupted only by Ocean Village at B.54) which is UNDEVELOPED. It runs from the El to the Boardwalk, and in all the time the subway has run to the Rockaways, NOTHING has EVER been built there.
So, maybe the NIMBYs are not resistant to transit because of trains. Maybe they know that "falling property values" is code for "the rest of the city might move in here".
I'm waiting for the avalanche of hatemasil...
>>> In Los Angeles, the Century Freeway was derided because people were afraid property values would drop next to it. Now, that was a freeway project. I don't know if property values dropped there next to the freeway or not. However, the Green Line's operation along the median would have been expected to soften that blow a bit, in areas within a few blocks of a station. <<<
The main opposition to the Century Freeway, with or without the Green Line was the destruction of the neighborhoods it went through. The real battles took place during the condemnation and removal period which took place years before they started work. It takes out two full blocks of homes, and is depressed for sound suppression, and the closest homes are across a street from it. This is far different than a railroad ROW adjacent to the back yard or an el over the street in front of a house.
Tom
Oh, I totally agree with you. The engineering on that project, and is very good.
I just don't know what actually happened to property values nearest the freeway, or near off-ramps. I would predict that the presence of Green Line stations is a plus, though of what magnitude I don't know.
There are no recent examples of that effect happening. No one has experienced a loss of property values in any recently built transit system - Washington Metrorail, MARTA, NYC Transit at Roosevelt Island and Jamaica (of course that's subway, not elevated).
None of these have been built outside of people's windows. But in many dense places, if it isn't an expensive subway, it has to be outside of people's windows.
False statement, according to all available studies and actual experience. Property values rise near stations. It's unequivocal. No down effect. It's not controversial.
And how far does this have to be? People who live directly adjacent to subway stations are inconvenienced by the noise. Or is it only oppurtunistic bigots that have ears?
You are obviously not familiar with transit and property developments over the past 20 years. I encourage you to do some reading.
You are obviously not familiar with the opponent's arguments. I encourage you to stop acting like you know everything.
"None of these have been built outside of people's windows."
Bingo!
But in many dense places, if it isn't an expensive subway, it has to be outside of people's windows."
Then it won't be built, or if it is, it will be encased in a box structure or dug into a culvert. Look at Boston's Orange Line from the 1980's.
"You are obviously not familiar with the opponent's arguments."
I'm obviously familiar with yours.
"I encourage you to stop acting like you know everything. "
There's no reason for you to become defensive. Let's keep this at an adult level, shall we?
If you think you know better, prove it. Go do the reading, come back and show me what has occurred over the past 30 years.
Plwase note that I absolutely agree with you, that if things are built right next to people's homes, they deserve mitigation and compensation. A sewage treatment plant is a good example.
Of course, what would a neighborhood be like without adequate water supply and contaminated rivers and streams because you failed to build the treatment plant?
Astoria did NOT go ballistic. Some people in Astoria went ballistic, but we don't know whether or not that represents a majority opinion. But it might. The city councilman for the area at the time, Peter (blocking on his last name, he was also the Speaker) said "Over My Dead Body"
Vallone. Queens beeps past and present also solid on the issue.
If you have info suggesting Astoria isn't against it, I'd be interested. Complete inaction for the past 3 years says volumes.
Yes, here I might have to concede. Of course, lots of people want subway service and don't lift a finger to get it. There's no new service in East Elmhurst despite the fact that people do need it and a new underground route is not likely to run into a lot of NIMBY (or at least, Astoria-style).
MTA can ram the N extension down Astoria's throat if it wants to badly enough. But it's not a battle worth fighting right now. Besides, it's got a chance to try to build Second Av, with solid political support and nary a NIMBY in sight. And it's busy digging the 63rd Street tunnel under Manhattan and preparing connections in LIC for it. So the agency will take the route of least resistance and keep busy with a full plate.
Besides, it's got a chance to try to build Second Av, with solid political support and nary a NIMBY in sight.
At the risk of repeating something I said a while ago, you can be 100% assured that if the Second Avenue Subway ever gets to the point where construction is soon to start, the NIMBY's will be pouring out of the woodwork like cockroaches.
A am 100% assured that you are wrong about that. You won't hear a significant peep. Not a one.
I know Guiliani was for the N extension, and made MTA commit $650 million (?) to it from the sale Coliseum site.
The project is still on their website:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/cap2000-2004-network.htm#lag
The feds are still monitoring:
http://www.fta.dot.gov/library/policy/ns/ns2003/appb3final.html#b73
Just not sure if anyone what the status is these days. Dead quiet.
The city councilman for the area at the time, Peter (blocking on his last name, he was also the Speaker) said "Over My Dead Body"
Well, I guess *that* could be arranged.
Don't get me started...
Yes, it would be, by current plans. The political situation, was, until recently, difficult. But times (and administrations), have changed. I don't know what the political landscape looks like now.
Yes, extending the N would make the most sense. It could run via Ditmars Blvd with a few stops in between if necessary to LGA.
Getting to JFK, sometime back someone suggested that the 3 be extended from New Lots to JFK, and it doesn't sound so bad since it provides a alternative to the B15 but I say using the old LIRR ROW is more sensible since you would save hundreds of millions b/c the structure already exists.
but I say using the old LIRR ROW is more sensible since you would save hundreds of millions b/c the structure already exists.
So you say, but in reality, the structure *does NOT exist*, what *does* exist is an ROW, and that is quite valuable enough to consider using the ROW for something.
Reality suggests that all of the embankments would have to be rebuilt, the bridges replaces, and every inch of rail, third rail, ties and communications would have to be built new. But *that* is not such a big deal compared to the aqusition of an ROW, or the construction of tunnels or even elevated structres.
Elias
"Reality suggests that all of the embankments would have to be rebuilt, the bridges replaces, and every inch of rail, third rail, ties and communications would have to be built new."
Yes, but you forgot (purposefully ignore is more like it) about the legal action required to deal with encroachments, the engineering required to protect homes from noise and vibration (very tough on the Rockaway ROW, MUCH harder than on the Van Wyck), and of course, the industrial-strength NIMBY you'll encounter, vs. the handful of rank amateurs on the Van Wyck.
And, of course, the ROW does not lead directly into the Airport, as does the Van Wyck - so you have to create a new ROW for an AirTrain type vehicle to extend out to meet the LIRR. More NIMBY - this time from pissed-off Howard Beach residents.
"But *that* is not such a big deal compared to the aqusition of an ROW, or the construction of tunnels or even elevated structres. "
Nonsense and you know it.
Nonsense and you know it. [pout]
It is not such a big deal when compaired to condemning and acquiring property, or building an underground subway under say Woodhaven Blvd.
I never proposed it for an airport connection, but only as a new subway line on a fantasy map. As such I proposed following Woodhaven Boulevard as a subway to the cypress hills park, and then jogging over to the ROW for a connection with the existing line to the Rockaways. It was intended to serve the neghiborhood, and not the airport. As such some of the NIMBYisms would be mitigated. I do not know what encroachments, if any would be left. I guess I would envision the elevation of the line on strong quiet concrete risers until it joined the existing elevated structure, which in any case would have to be sosund proofed and strengthened.
It is not my highest priority plan (The Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Line holds that distinction along with the NJT/LIRR WTC project). It was drawn to see what might be possible with as an improvement to western Queens access.
Elias
How bad is the B15 anyway? Does it get stuck in traffic?
How bad is the B15 anyway? Does it get stuck in traffic?
Probably not to any unusual extent. The problem with the 3 train-to-B15 connection is that it is located in what has long been one of the very worst neighborhoods in all of New York, although it may have gotten a little better in the past few years.
Speaking as one who has grown fearless of the worst NYC neighborhoods, even I wouldn't attempt to transfer from the 3 to the B15 (with its less-than-stellar headways) while carrying luggage.
If the B15 happened to show up while I was waiting at JFK, I'd probably take it, assuming I'd be able to make it up the stairs to the el itself. It's easier to get to my final destination from the 3 than from the A.
Good for you, David!
Yes, I agree! Mazel Tov, David!
Speaking as one who has grown fearless of the worst NYC neighborhoods, even I wouldn't attempt to transfer from the 3 to the B15 (with its less-than-stellar headways) while carrying luggage.
I've heard that the 'hood is not quite as fearsome as it was just a few years ago, but I suppose it's still not the safest place for airport travelers.
Well at least you may not have to worry about all the new luggage screening at the airport, you may not have any luggage by the time you get to the airport if you use the 3 train/B15 combo.....
Actually, like David said though, it would seem to be less of a problem coming back, because after your bus to subway transfer, at least you are in the subway system waiting for a train, as opposed to just standing on the street with all your luggage waiting for the bus.
All in all though I have also become fairly fearless of many of the rough neighborhoods in NYC (basically through my railfanning). It may be a combination of the neighborhoods getting better (like you said) and me just getting used to some of the more run down areas.
in what has long been one of the very worst neighborhoods in all of New York
Should be no problem in putting a nice big El through there then!
Bit of a shame that neighborhood's not too nice - it looks quite a good way of getting to JFK on the Queens bus map!
Want to fight for a do-able subway airport project? MTA does want to build a subway to La Guardia (and has money already in the budget, set aside for it), and the PA is receptive to extending PATH to EWR Rail.
I'd prefer neither, not right now, given my caution about declining airport traffic. If I had to choose, however, I'd go with the subway to LGA. EWR already has rail service.
My understanding is that the AirTrain stations are 180' long. So after the system has been paid off, maybe MTA could build a connector, run special dual-mode cars up onto the loop, and have just the the first 3 cars open their doors.
The Rockaway branch could not be run to Manhattan without East Side Access - there simply isn't room in the Penn tubes for another line. As it is, express trains from Port Washington and Huntington, for example, sometimes come to a halt in front of stop signals, waiting to cross the East River. When the 63rd Street tunnel is in operation, then we'll have a new ballgame.
The only time anyone could even to begin to discuss a possible reactivation of the Rockaway Branch is when the East Side Access is completed.
The real answer to the Rockaway Branch is that it should never have been abandoned to begin with. Yes the LIRR should have abandoned it. But the subway should have almost immediately started running trains over it like they did on the southern end of it. If they had done it right away, the people along the line could not have complained, as they would have been use to the line there. It is safe to say that very few of the same homeowners or renters still live along the line form when the LIRR used to run service there.
"The real answer to the Rockaway Branch is that it should never have been abandoned to begin with. Yes the LIRR should have abandoned it. But the subway should have almost immediately started running trains over it like they did on the southern end of it. If they had done it right away, the people along the line could not have complained, as they would have been use to the line there. It is safe to say that very few of the same homeowners or renters still live along the line form when the LIRR used to run service there. "
Very true. And all spilled milk, unfortunately.
Another thing you forgot to mention is how The Train to the Plane flopped. I realize a connection from the Queens Blvd Line would mean less of a ride time than the Fulton Street line but do you really think that small savings of time would add thousands of riders. I think most people going to the airport would not want to take a subway period. The TTTP (train to the plane) only stopped at a couple of stations and did not mingle with non-flying passengers and still didn't do good. I doubt shaving off a few minutes from the ride time would make that much of a difference. Another thing to consider is that the QB lines are busier with more trains than the Fulton Street Line. It might be harder to fit in non-stop trains.
If there was ever a time to refurbish the Rockaway Branch, it was when the IND just took it over from the LIRR. It would have made sense at that time to have Rockaway trains go from the QB line rather than the Fulton St Line.
TTTP flopped because it did not go directly to the terminals. Airline passengers do not want to carry luggage from train to bus to plane. The AirTrain is going to get into trouble because, while it does serve the airline terms, it requires the flying public to make one (or more) transfers (carrying luggage) going to/from the airport. The airlines know that the customer wants a one seat ride to their destination. That's why there are nonstops. Chicago knows this, too, that's why their trains take you right to your airline.
Chicago's trains DO NOT take you right to the airline at O'Hare. Since O'Hare is too large to be served by one station, and having the subway trains loop around is impractical, people have to transfer to a peoplemover at O'Hare station.
What difference does it make if people transfer in the airport or off of it? They're still transferring.
Chicago's trains DO NOT take you right to the airline at O'Hare. Since O'Hare is too large to be served by one station, and having the subway trains loop around is impractical, people have to transfer to a peoplemover at O'Hare station.
Only to get to the international terminal. The 'L' station is a short walk from all three domestic terminals. And those who do need to make use of the peoplemover don't pay a $5 fare.
What difference does it make if people transfer in the airport or off of it? They're still transferring.
Red herring. If a track connection had been included at Howard Beach, then people wouldn't have had to transfer. There would have been direct service from every station served by the A train in Manhattan and Brooklyn to each terminal at JFK. AirTrain cars are the same dimensions as the R-38's currently running on the A.
Red herring. If a track connection had been included at Howard Beach, then people wouldn't have had to transfer. There would have been direct service from every station served by the A train in Manhattan and Brooklyn to each terminal at JFK. AirTrain cars are the same dimensions as the R-38's currently running on the A.
And how often would the service to the airport run? Every 40 minutes with every 40 minutes to the Rockaways? Or would it run only every 10 minutes, with Rockaway service reduced to a shuttle and Lefferts Blvd service abandoned off peak?
That's the relevant problem. First, you're alternating Lefferts and Rockaway service. Now you're splitting Rockaway service into two branches.
A better idea (much more costly) would have been to extend the E subway under the Van Wyck Expressway to the airport. You'd have additional local stations serving Ozone Park and South Ozone Park, and then the airport, and you wouldn't have to worry so much about splitting.
(Of course, that might mean the Archer Av line wuld have become a J train service only. Would a split E service - Jamaica Center and the Airport -be viable?)
Airport trains could use only the two inside tracks off the LIRR ROW from Ozone Park. Regular subway service could use the two outside tracks they're on now. No conflict. (The two inside tracks become the connection to JFK's terms via a flyover at How Beach.)
Thank you.
Extend the C to Lefferts, as others have proposed (independent of JFK operations). Alternate A trains go to JFK.
Or decouple trains en route, as discussed in a recent thread.
You're grasping at straws.
(Incidentally, if requiring a transfer to Rockaway service -- which I'm not recommending -- is denigrated as "reduced to a shuttle," why isn't requiring a transfer to JFK service not similarly denigrated?)
Extend the C to Lefferts, as others have proposed (independent of JFK operations). Alternate A trains go to JFK.
Leffets Blvd passengers would be stuck with a long local ride.
Still, this would entail service every 20 minutes to the airport.
Or decouple trains en route, as discussed in a recent thread.
Not practical.
Incidentally, if requiring a transfer to Rockaway service -- which I'm not recommending -- is denigrated as "reduced to a shuttle," why isn't requiring a transfer to JFK service not similarly denigrated?
Rockaway already has through service, therefore if it becomes a shuttle, it would be reduced. How is making an airport service a shuttle any kind of reduction over what is there now?
Leffets Blvd passengers would be stuck with a long local ride.
Ten-minute headways on the local are better than twenty-minute headways on the express, especially if locals are timed to reach Euclid just before expresses. Those who choose to stay on the local will lose six minutes in travel but gain an average of five minutes in the wait, assuming off-peak headways. (There could still be through rush hour express service.) Why is an optional cross-platform transfer with a timed connection for people generally without luggage more onerous than a required walking transfer for people with luggage?
Still, this would entail service every 20 minutes to the airport.
Yes. That's how often the A arrives at Howard Beach now, anyway, for most of the day -- yet the PA plans on operating at 12-minute headways. So much for the possibility of timed connections! (Which is better, a wait of up to 20 minutes or a wait of up to 20 minutes followed by a wait of up to 12 minutes? When two AirTrains leave Howard Beach between A's, will anyone ride the second one?) During peak periods, the PA will operate two-car trains at 4-minute headways -- ten-car trains at 20-minute headways have the same carrying capacity, except that some of the PA's two-car trains will be empty.
Rockaway already has through service, therefore if it becomes a shuttle, it would be reduced. How is making an airport service a shuttle any kind of reduction over what is there now?
A walking transfer to a $5 service is certainly a reduction over a walking transfer to a free service. (Before Peter Rosa chimes in, you've fallen for the trap. The PA could run a decent shuttle bus service, but a decent shuttle bus service wouldn't drum up support for AirTrain.)
I thought that the A service to Far Rockaway middays had been increased to a 15-minute frequency last spring (and to Lefferts too, giving 8 t.p.h. overall on the A)? Four t.p.h. is still too few for a good airport service, but ut is at least better than 3 t.p.h. It would make sense, though, for the AirTrain to be at 4 rather than 5 t.p.h. to mesh in with the subway timetable. However, even 12 minutes would be an inadequate frequency for the airport's internal-transit needs. Are some AirTrain journeys going to run purely within the airport, not going through to Howard Bearch?
My impression is that the A returned to 6 tph midday service when regular IRT service was restored. I may be wrong. (On Sundays, the A definitely runs at 6 tph, but I'm not sure if the increase to 8 covered weekends.)
Most AirTrains won't leave the terminal loop.
I don't think 4 tph or even 3 tph to the airport would be a big problem.
When two AirTrains leave Howard Beach between A's, will anyone ride the second one?
I have't thought about that. That's close to insane. The second one will probably be empty except for some Howard Beach customers, or a few (very few) Rockaway passengers that happened to come from the other direction and crossed over.
I believe the only solution when Airtrain opens is to finally end the A splitting. Extend the C to Lefferts, and have all A's go to Far Rockaway (or alternate between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park and eliminate the S). As for the Lefferts people complaining about loss of express service - tough. How can 3 stations dictate how the entire Rockaway branch is run? And as explained, the Lefferts stations would be actually served better on average, and if they still choose to switch to the express at Euclid, more power to them.
(A) Train is 600' long.
(AirHead) Trian is 180' long.
People with bags not as fast as commuters at rush hour station, I'd not be surprized if the second train had more passengers than the first.
Elias
Consider an example.
A arrives at 12:00.
AirTrain departs at 12:08.
AirTrain departs at 12:20.
A arrives at 12:20.
Who's going to be riding that second AirTrain?
Yes, some people will get on in the parking lots, but the first AirTrain will be much more crowded than the second.
If AirTrains and A trains ran at the same headway, loading patterns would be much more predictable.
I agree with you David.
But it's too early to condemn something that hasn't happened yet. There's plenty of time to tweak the system.
But it's too early to condemn something that hasn't happened yet.
Does that also extend to praise?
"Does that also extend to praise?"
Yes. For example, when your AirTrain-related posts make more sense, I will praise you.
:0)
Or for example:
(A) arrives 1300
(AirT) departs 1308
(AirT) departs 1318
(A) arrives 1320
(AirT) departs 1328
(AirT) departs 1338
(A) arrives 1340
etc etc etc....
Elias
There are some interesting ideas there. Once AirTrain is up an running, the TA would do well to observe the situation and do some tweaking.
""When two AirTrains leave Howard Beach between A's, will anyone ride the second one? ""
"I have't thought about that. That's close to insane..."
It's not insane. Just because a train goes out empty doesn't mean that it came in empty. One should expect arrivals at the airtrain station to be more evenly dispersed. Further, the Howard Beach branch will also serve the long term parking lot -- which should have a more uniform distribution of passengers both coming and going.
CG
Good point.
Having 12 minute Howard Beach airtrain service is incredibly stupid, but the Airtrain will also serve Jamaica station, which will have far more frequent service.
Not according to the AirTrain website.
Nor is Jamaica relevant to the A train connection (or lack thereof), which we were discussing.
I did not mean that Airtrain to Jamaica would have far more frequent service, but that the available connections there would have more frequent service.
And the discussion was about how best to provide a connection from an airport service to the subway, not only about a connection at Howard Beach.
"A walking transfer to a $5 service is certainly a reduction over a walking transfer to a free service. (Before Peter Rosa chimes in, you've fallen for the trap. The PA could run a decent shuttle bus service, but a decent shuttle bus service wouldn't drum up support for AirTrain.)"
I think you're falling into the trap here of being too myopic. Passengers still have a free transfer from the A train. You just have to go to Lefferts instead of Howard Beach. The Q10 runs every 10 minutes (15 minutes in the evening), which is far better than the PA's shuttle bus ran.
The only folks losing anything are those who take a bus to their subway station -- they won't have the free metrocard transfer at Lefferts.
CG
I think you're falling into the trap here of being too myopic. Passengers still have a free transfer from the A train. You just have to go to Lefferts instead of Howard Beach
True, but then how is the AirTrain an improvement over the current service. Currently there is a free shuttle at Howard Beach, which I believe will be lost. AirTrain from HB should be a free transfer to the subway system. As for the Jamaic run, maybe a similar price as the subway system, similar to PATH, which the PA also runs. A "double fare" is still better than this premium $5.00 fare would be.
They expect airport workers to be using this system. Isn't that an extreme price for daily users? As for airline passengers, I guess they can add that as a "cost of traveling", but I don't see how this is fair to airport workers that are going to be using this to get tho their jobs.
"Still, this would entail service every 20 minutes to the airport."
"Yes. That's how often the A arrives at Howard Beach now, anyway, for most of the day -- yet the PA plans on operating at 12-minute headways."
Last spring NYCT modified A headways so that now they are 15 or 16 minutes midday (as they remain on Saturday). Sunday admittedly is mostly 20 minutes (except in the late afternoon, when it is 16, incidentally corresponding to the peak time at JFK.
It still doesn't synchronize, but it's not as bad as it was.
Judging from the lack of crowding on the Newark Airlink, it may be a few years before crowding on every other train of the the JFK line is an issue.
I beg to differ, sir. The next time you're in Chicago on the Kennedy Expressway, when you approach the airport, LOOK UP. The ROW goes from grade level, to the terms w2ith a stop at each term. Flew AA to ORD to see my sister and rode into Belmont from the term. ( There is a long peoplemover from above Baggage Claim to the station, though, like the ones at LGA from the parking garage)
Here's some reasons the JFK express flopped in 1990.
1) Budget cuts
2) When A's ran express on weekdays, it interfered with service
3) The premium fare of $3.50 or something like that turned many people away
4) It wasn't very frequent [every 20-30 minutes]
5) Low ridership
Can't run it via the current QB line, it would have to be a new line beside it or make the proposed bypass tracks come to use and then run it via the LIRR ROW in the middle tracks to Howard Beach.
Your valid objections notwithstanding, Atlanta, Washington DC and Chicago have proven beyond debate that people will use a subway to get to the airport if it's convenient.
Atlanta, Washington DC and Chicago have proven beyond debate that people will use a subway to get to the airport if it's convenient.
How many are using a subway to get to the airport?
The current usage figures for O'Hare - the number of people using the O'Hare station is roughly comparable to the number of people using the Lefferts Blvd station. The current usage figures for O'Hare are 33% less than currently use the Myrtle-Wykoff Station on the L and M lines.
"How many are using a subway to get to the airport?"
MARTA trains in Atlanta arrive full of people. Having lived there and visited there, I took that train regularly to Hartsfield. All train cars were virtually SRO. End of story.
Rather than comparing O'Hare to Lefferts, which is inappropriate (the two stations have absolutely no logical relationship to each other), compare O'Hare to other stations in Chicago, and to the Midway Airport station. If I recall correctly, CTA carries a little over a million people a day (vs 7 million for NYCTA), so the O'Hare station's performance needs to be evaluated by Chicago transit standards, not New York standards.
If, hypothetically, there is service on the Moscow subway to Sheremetyevo Airport (I don't know if there is or not), it would be inappropriate to compare traffic at the Airport station to a station in New York? Why? Because the Moscow subway carries twice as many people as NYCTA does, and you would be overly generous to Moscow in making such a comparison. (On the other hand, you'd also have to factor in how many people fly in Russia, compared to the US).
MARTA trains in Atlanta arrive full of people. Having lived there and visited there, I took that train regularly to Hartsfield. All train cars were virtually SRO.
Unless you can quantify your observations by published turnstile counts, you observations are full of something other than people. Monthly turnstile counts for the CTA are published on the web.
Rather than comparing O'Hare to Lefferts, which is inappropriate (the two stations have absolutely no logical relationship to each other), compare O'Hare to other stations in Chicago...
The comparison to Lefferts (and Myrtle-Wyckoff) was made to show how much usage an existing airport facility generates compared to more traditional users.
I did not attempt to extrapolate O'Hare's CTA usage to AirTrain's. However, you raised the point.
The number of people who leave an airport station is most strongly correlated to the number of people who use the airport not the number of people who use other stops on the subway. O'Hare handles more passengers and has more on site workers than JFK. One might therefore conclude that Airtrain's combined turnstile count for the Howard Beach and Jamaica should be lower than the turnstile count for O'Hare. The PA also concluded the same. Their combined estimated totals are 25% lower than the current O'Hare turnstile count. This places AirTrain's projected projected use at Howard Beach and Jamaica to something on the order of Prospect Park.
If, hypothetically, there is service on the Moscow subway to Sheremetyevo Airport...
Comrade, the closest Metro stations are 30 minutes away by public bus.
(Regarding Moscow Metro and the airport):"Comrade, the closest Metro stations are 30 minutes away by public bus."
Bummer. Maybe they'll do something about that one day...
"The comparison to Lefferts (and Myrtle-Wyckoff) was made to show how much usage an existing airport facility generates compared to more traditional users. "
And you failed to do so, again, because you're using the wrong map. How about one of the stations on the State Street line, or the Loop (I am not familiar enough with Chicago's subway to know which station provides the most appropriate comparison. Evidently, you aren't either. It doesn't bother you as much as it bothers me).
"Unless you can quantify your observations by published turnstile counts, you observations are full of something other than people."
They are a lot more realistic than many of your observations, posted here over the years - some of which I have shown you to be little more than fabrications. At least I was really watching...
"Monthly turnstile counts for the CTA are published on the web."
Good for them. So why didn't you refer to them instead of Myrtle-Wyckoff?
How about one of the stations on the State Street line, or the Loop...
The O'Hare train uses neither the State St Subway nor the Loop.
The question is: how many people are likely to use AirTrain from Jamaica and Howard Beach. The answer based on both the O'Hare example and Port Authority estimates is comparitively few. Based on the estimate it is on the order of single interchange express stop like Myrtle-Wyckoff or Prospect Park. Perhaps somebody would be able to tell us where an annual turnstile count of 2.4 million(O'Hare) lies withing NYCT or 2.0 million (PA estimate).
Regarding Moscow Metro and the airport):"Comrade, the closest Metro stations are 30 minutes away by public bus."
Bummer. Maybe they'll do something about that one day...
Moscow's airport terminal can handle 2,100 passengers per hour. A Moscow subway line can handle 80,000 passengers per hour. Perhaps, one might be built, if somebody bestowed a couple of billion dollars for a dedicated line. However, unlike airport access over here, there is no special off-budget funding for such lines in the Russian Republic.
"Moscow's airport terminal can handle 2,100 passengers per hour. A Moscow subway line can handle 80,000 passengers per hour. Perhaps, one might be built, if somebody bestowed a couple of billion dollars for a dedicated line. However, unlike airport access over here, there is no special off-budget funding for such lines in the Russian Republic. "
If I recall correctly, Moscow is also served by Domedovo (spelling?) Airport and one other field whose primary purpose may be military transport. Does Domedovo have rail access?
If I recall correctly, Moscow is also served by Domedovo (spelling?) Airport and one other field whose primary purpose may be military transport. Does Domedovo have rail access?
HET.
"HET."
?????
For those who are Cyrillically challenged: the answer is NO!
Oh, so that is how you spell "Nyet" in Cyrillic.
Thank you.
>>If I recall correctly, Moscow is also served by Domedovo (spelling?) Airport and one other field whose primary purpose may be military transport. Does Domedovo have rail access?
>HET.
It's a joke, a stupid kind of joke IMHO.
Moscow has 4 airports: Sheremetyevo, Vnukovo, Domodedovo and Bykovo.
I don't know which is the largest but Bykovo is exactly the smallest.
Domodedovo and Bykovo have rail access with suburban trains service. But suburban train is NOT popular for airline passengers of Domodedovo. Most of them go from airport to the city by bus. (Maybe because suburban trains go seldom, about 1 per hour). From Bykovo to Moscow the most popular way is suburban train that is much faster than bus. Vnukovo and Sheremetyevo also have rail access but without any passenger service. There were suburban trains to Vnukovo at Soviet times but since 1993 this route was closed.
"There were suburban trains to Vnukovo at Soviet times but since 1993 this route was closed. "
Lack of ridership?
>>"There were suburban trains to Vnukovo at Soviet times but since 1993 this route was closed. "
>Lack of ridership?
Possibly yes. Some years ago trains from Moscow to Domodedovo airport were turned to express, but after several months they were turned back to all-stops local due to lack of ridership from the airport. Now they are used mostly by Domodedovo town residents than passengers of the airport.
There are four Moscow airports:
Sheremetjevo (SVO)
Domodedovo (DME)
Vnukovo (VKO)
Bykovo (BKO)
All of them you need to ride a bus to.
Actually there are 2 Sheremetyevo airports, one is international the other is domestic, they are quite a distance apart.
Arti
Ďĺäŕíň!
(Yes, that is a real Russian word!)
Oops - obviously you can't post in Cyrillic on Subtalk! I'll transliterate: "Pyedant!"
Which means?
Rather obviously, "pedant".
Picked Russian encoding, and, yes you are right :-)
Arti
Ah, so that's how you can make things display correctly!
Ńďŕńčáî!
Or the much easier to type if technically Serbo-Croat:
Ěîëčě!
Thank you. Vnukovo, I believe, is primarily a military transport field. Domodedovo, the one I was referring to earlier, is, I think, the original Moscow airport, and handles mostly domestic flights (though that included a flight schedule to the former USSR states, so those are now international flights). Sheremetyevo Airport is the main international field, the one you and I would fly to on Pan Am in its glory days or Aeroflot from NY (which now operates 767ERs and Ilyushin-96 widebodies equipped with Pratt and Whitney engines).
If I'm wrong on these details let me know.
Sheremetyevo Airport is the main international field, the one you and I would fly to on Pan Am in its glory days or Aeroflot from NY (which now operates 767ERs and Ilyushin-96 widebodies equipped with Pratt and Whitney engines).
Aeroflot uses only 767's on its flights from JFK and other US airports. Delta also has daily nonstop service from JFK, once again using a 767.
Supposedly the least expensive flights from JFK are generally on Finnair via Helsinki.
So no more Ilyushins? Dang...(yes, I'm weird).
If Finnair is still solvent, it must be the only Scandinavian carrier left standing up...
KLM is quite solvent aside of Finnair.
Arti
So Finnair is actually the problem?
>>> KLM is quite solvent <<<
But it is not quite Scandinavian. :-)
Tom
So no more Ilyushins? Dang...(yes, I'm weird).
You could head up to Alaska. A Siberian airline, Magadan Airlines, has a weekly flight from Magadan and Petropavlosk to Anchorage. It usually uses TU-154's but occasionally IL-62's.
With the original Kuznetsov or Soloviev engines?
With the original Kuznetsov or Soloviev engines?
No idea.
Still, I was always curious about flying a Russian jetliner. I'd heard stories of the vibration on board, the rough ride on the landing gear (which are better suited than Western airliners' gear for unimproved airstrips), and, of course, the lousy food.
But I would want to do it - to have the experience.
Plus a place called Petropavlovsk Kamchatskiy is worth going to just for the name!
Petropavlovsk was one of the stops in Tom Leherer's song "Lobachevsky".
It was indeed. Isn't it an interesting comment on the way the world has changed these lat ten years that we can calmly be discussing a regular public airline flight between Alaska and Kamchatka?
Tupelovs and Iylushins are not as reliable as Federovs/Tokarevs/Kalishnikovs. Remember submarine M-249? Great idea
to add liquid oxygen to diesel/electric submarines for long
distance travel underwater. Every flight on every 'Soviet' aircraft
is a flight to remember. EES PRAVDA KOMRADS. CI Peter
You are correct.
Arti
Supposedly the least expensive flights from JFK are generally on Finnair via Helsinki.
But then you have to cross the Finnish line twice.
Ooh!
"The O'Hare train uses neither the State St Subway nor the Loop. "
So pick a station that is on the appropriate line.
"The answer based on both the O'Hare example and Port Authority estimates is comparitively few."
No, it isn't. You still haven't made the appropriate comparison. I showed you something that is basic to Statistics 101. Since I know for a fact that your math background is solid and very advanced, obviously you're not taking this discussion seriously.
"The answer based on both the O'Hare example and Port Authority estimates is comparitively few."
No, it isn't...
What is YOUR estimate of AirTrain's combined turnstile count at Howard Beach and Jamaica? Is this figure significantly greater than the Port Authority's estimate or the current counts at O'Hare? If so, what is your justification?
I showed you something that is basic to Statistics 101
I'm sorry, I missed any reference to statistics in any of your previous posts. Statistics invovle numbers, did you provide any numerical data in those posts?
1,996,516: Parsons/Hillside (rank 187)
2,016,646: Northern Boulevard (186)
2,395,907: Newkirk/Nostrand (162)
2,433,404: Hoyt-Schermerhorn (161)
(2000 annual fare registrations)
Myrtle-Wyckoff had 3,825,543; Prospect Park had 2,299,429.
Thanks for the information.
This shows that the expected usage of the AirTrain does not justify a separate line. The usage is comparitively modest by NYCT standards. If somebody provided $1+ billion for improvements without any strings, an airport link would not be near the top of the list.
"This shows that the expected usage of the AirTrain does not justify a separate line. The usage is comparitively modest by NYCT standards."
Not really, since you don't offer a valid methodology for comparison.
"If somebody provided $1+ billion for improvements without any strings, an airport link would not be near the top of the list."
Fortunately, the PA offered the money within its legal authority to spend it. AirTrain was the most appropriate use for it, and it didn't cost MTA customers anything save for subway station and commuter station improvements which were needed anyway.
What is your turnstile count estimate?
Initially (first few weeks) we may see volumes equal to the PA's estimate. But after that, we'll see increases to, I predict, at least double that volume within the first year if not sooner. After a couple of years, I'd expect to see steady increases, partly because the subway will become progressively more accessible across the board.
Negative factors:
Lower air traffic in general
Lack of ADA compliant stations
Positive factors:
People flying cut-rate air carriers may be more amenable to using transit. (not my original idea; another Subtalker suggested that - I like it. We'll see...)
Unfulfilled Need for employee and air crew transportation. For example, flight attendants have been riding the A train; with a better airport connection, more will do so.
ADA upgrades in progress at various stations. Each new ADA station makes the airport little easier to reach by rail.
The fare right now is a wild card, to me. The PA should examine traffic patterns to evaluate elasticity of demand and can adjust up or down. Not hard to do.
Howard Beach will be more of an employee thing, or for local Brooklyn riders. Jamaica will be more for travelers, esp. business travelers. The PA is planning luggage check-in and ticket sales at Jamaica (and have supported that idea even after 9/11, recognizing that security at the airport is not compromised so long as the bag is x-rayed and "sniffed" prior to being loaded on the aircraft)
But the actual patterns may surprise us...
What is your turnstile count estimate?
Initially (first few weeks) we may see volumes equal to the PA's estimate. But after that, we'll see increases to, I predict, at least double that volume within the first year if not sooner.
Can I assume that you are predicting a combined turnstile count of 4.0 million annually?
Howard Beach will be more of an employee thing, or for local Brooklyn riders. Jamaica will be more for travelers, esp. business travelers.
And what would these levels represent in market penetration (percentage of employees and passengers taking AirTrain)?
The fare right now is a wild card, to me.
The PA has stated that it will be $5 for passengers and $2 for employees. They are obligated to recover operating costs from AirTrain users. Was your estimate based on a different assumption?
Here is a link that I think is helpful....
http://nm-server.jrn.columbia.edu/projects/masters/traininvain/plans/article_01f.html
An interesting article.
Note that the Airline Transport association's REAL objection was the use of transfer fee money, because if that money were to be restricted to airport property, it would directly increase airline profit margins by releasing the airlines from having to spend their own money on terminals and gates.
I have to laugh when I see George Haikalis' work. He's sincere and well-intended, but competence in design was never one of his strong points...
From historical accounts and my own (covert) observations, the LIRR Rockaway ROW appears to need only tree clearing, basic leveling, the usual structural work, and signalling/trackage to make this a viable operation again
It's amazing what has happened to this invaluable line right down the center of Queens. WHy they didn't convert it to subway use, and provide local service to that unserved part of Queens is beyond me:
See here also:
Photos of Abandoned Woodhaven/Rockaway Branch Station
It's mostly political that it has been left to rot.
"It's amazing what has happened to this invaluable line right down the center of Queens. WHy they didn't convert it to subway use, and provide local service to that unserved part of Queens is beyond me: "
That would have been interesting...
Of course, they did convert part of it to subway.
YEs, and luckily they did. There is a provision for the line to enter the IND at 63rd Drive. When they built the IND, they already were thinking about annexing the LIRR Rockaway Branch there. Unfortunately they chose to do it to the Liberty el, while leaving the rest to rot. I don't know if they were planning for the connection to be only at 63rd Drive, or if they planned to connect at both 63rd Drive, and the Liberty El.
Intuitively, the Liberty El was closer to the Rockaways. I would imsgine the move was made to accomplish a goal at a lower assigned budget. They got something, though not everything they wanted. Am I correct in assuming that the line segment between 63rd Drive and the intersection with the Liberty El would have been significantly more expensive than the segment south of the Liberty El?
If it were done today there would be yet another problem: line capacity constraints under Queens Blvd. Ironic, isn't it, to consider than the Queens Blvd. line might not have been able to handle the added volume anyway.
Now, if you add a new line into Queens off the 63rd Street subway tunnel, maybe you have a new chance...
Am I correct in assuming that the line segment between 63rd Drive and the intersection with the Liberty El would have been significantly more expensive than the segment south of the Liberty El?
Of course, yes, it was cheaper. But I feel it was penny wise, pound foolish. At the time they missed the chance to provide local subway service down Central Queens with new stations being built at:
101 Ave (existing Ozone Park station)
Atlantic Ave (convert Woodhaven existing station)
Jamaica Ave-transfer to J (rebuild Brooklyn Manor Station-LIRR's was Wood)
Union Turnpike
Metropolitan Ave (rebuild Parkside Station-LIRR's was wood)
Yellowstone Blvd
Austin Street
If it were done today there would be yet another problem: line capacity constraints under Queens Blvd. Ironic, isn't it, to consider than the Queens Blvd. line might not have been able to handle the added volume anyway
Yes, there would probably be a capacity problem today (it may have been less of a problem in the 50's when the chance first arose)
I propose two fantasy lines, if there is a capacity problem, and if money grew on trees:
Plan A: The stations shown above, with the following configuration:
A new station built on the Rockaway Branch, just south of the Liberty el connection. It would be in the typical express station configuration (two islands). I would extend the V from Queens Blvd, down the old Rockaway Branch, to all the stations mentioned above, and have it terminate at this new station, on the center tracks. The only problem with this would be a loss of service to 67th Ave and 71st on the Queens Line, which may be able to be rectified with some extra R's.
PlanB: Build a terminal station at 63rd Drive, with a transfer to the Queens Blvd 63rd Drive station available. Create a new line "H" which would run sort of like the G route. It would run between the new station at Queens Blvd/63rd Drive and Rockaway Park. It would eliminate the need for the Rockaway S train. Less ideal than a direct Manhattan connection, but certainly better than what we have now. Look at the map, and follow Woodhaven Blvd from Liberty to 63rd Drive, and see how much of Queens would be added to the subway map.
Money doesn't grow on trees but construction bonds do. :-) But Plan B has possibilities! All Rock Park "H" trains go to Midtown direct over the Rockaway ROW, All Far Rock "A"'s go to Liberty Ave. and Lower Manhattan. The transfer point remains Broad Channel.
>>"Plan A: The stations shown above, with the following configuration:
A new station built on the Rockaway Branch, just south of the Liberty el connection. It would be in the typical express station configuration (two islands). I would extend the V from Queens Blvd, down the old Rockaway Branch, to all the stations mentioned above, and have it terminate at this new station, on the center tracks. The only problem with this would be a loss of service to 67th Ave and 71st on the Queens Line, which may be able to be rectified with some extra R's."<<
Just bring the G back to 71 Av to replace G service then bring R's back to 179 St to reduce the likelihood of congestion. Why don't you just extend the V and run local to all times terminating at Rockaway Park, thereby getting rid of the Rockaway shuttle. As for the other line, it could run from Manhattan via a new QB line then turns off at 63 Dr via the Rockaway LIRR ROW utilizing the middle tracks to a redesigned Howard Beach station with two island platforms, terminating in the middle tracks.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
If train capacity on the Woodhaven/O Park portion (double tracked) were less than 20 tph this might work, as at How Beach there's a reverse bottleneck out to the ocean (4 tracks to 2). When the "E' Train ran out to Far Rock there used to be some delays associated with this, as the "E"'s did not stop at How Beach.
A fabulous post!
If Robert Moses' plot to kill transit funding had not been successful, then perhaps the Rockaway Line as originally envisioned could have been built. Then, the Capital Plans of the 1980's would have turned your fantasy line into reality.
or if they planned to connect at both 63rd Drive, and the Liberty El.
No, absolutly not! There *was* NO PLAN to connect the Fulton Street Line to the Liberty Avenue el, let alone to the Rockaways. IN CASE ANYBODY HAS FORGOTTEN: the line was *supposed* to go to 76th Street (and beyond) albeit, a connection from the Pitkin Avenue line to the Rockaways was considered.
Elias
Hey wasn't the LIRR looking to sell the entire ROW in Queens to the Board of Transportation as early as 1939? I know this is the reason the Far Rock/Rock Park grade separation of the late 30's-early '40s was purposely made transit-friendly. Drive dowh Rock Freeway and look at the structure and this will become clear. It looks the same today as it did 60 years ago. The only new stations on the Peninsula (post-1955) are Mott Ave. (opened 1958) and Rock Park (High Level plats added 1956).
I believe Broad Channel and Howard Beach were also completely rebuilt for the subway use. The rest of the stations were used by LIRR trains as you mentioned.
Incidentally, we always talk about the Abandoned "LIRR" Rockaway Branch. I believe that it is actually NYCT that does own the line between Rego Park and Ozone Park, no longer the LIRR. The LIRR transfered the whole line to the subway in the 50's, although I guess it doesn't really matter because it's all MTA.
Actually the LIRR sold the branch to the City Of New York, as the MTA did not then exist. It was probably grandfathered to the then-new MTA in 1968.
Yes, I think you are correct.
Now I'm confused. The A train IS the Fulton Street subway line. And that train then operates elevated above Liberty Av to Lefferts Blvd. The Rockaway IND plugs into that.
When the bellmouths were built along the Queens Boulevard line, there was no plan to connect to the Liberty Avenue Elevated, but rather to construct a new line along Pitkin Avenue and then out to the Nassau County Lion via Linden Boulevard, as such there could have been no plan to connect the Rockaway ROW to the Liberty Avenue line.
There *was* a thought of connecting it via the yet unbuilt Pitkin Avenue line east of Cross Bay Blvd (at least to the extent that I have seen it drawn as such on a printed map.~ but then even *ancient* map makers hand fantasies too!)
Elias
I do believe the line was abandoned long before somebody tried to build the Queensboro Subway. Even when they did build the subway, they left provision for the recapture of that line.
You only need to consider eastside access if you wanted to reconnect the ROW to the LIRR, for which there really is no point. If you wanted to connect it to the Subway System, then the subway would have to find a way to handle the extra traffic generated.
Elias
I do believe the line was abandoned long before somebody tried to build the Queensboro Subway. Even when they did build the subway, they left provision for the recapture of that line.
The Rockaway Line was in use by the LIRR until June 8th, 1962 from Rego Park to Ozone Park (just north of the Libery el), long after the IND Queens Blvd line was already built and in use.. It abandoned the part currently used by the A train in the 50's.
I am *IMPRESSED* with your knowledge of the ROW!
I have always been interested in the line.
Although it did help that I reread "Change in Ozone Park" about a month ago, which is a must read for anyone interested in the line. Try amazon.com. I don't know if it's still in print, I bought it more than 10 years ago. It was written by Herbert George. It's full of photos from when the A Line part of the line was still used by the LIRR, and great photos of the abandoned part in use.
Wasn't that a good book? I need a new copy. Kids spilled juice (what else?) on a copy I had about four years ago.
1. Nimbyism. That line is very close to the ROW and many houses abutting it have taken part of the ROW to expand their backyards. Yes, it's illegal, but these areas would have to be reclaimed and demolished to re-activate rail service.
2. Structure. Every overpass will probably need replacing, since they're rusting and haven't been well maintained.
3. Cost. The pricetag to just clear the ROW, replace it's overpasses and make it safe to lay new trackage would be astronomical.
4. What line would serve it? The old IND second system plan was to have a branch off the Queens Blvd line. What logical reason would you have for diverting service from the already underseved communities of eastern Queens to Rockaway? The Rockaway line south of Liberty is alreay well served, and activating the rest would only help some communities like Glendale, whose residents have consistently blocked plans to convert the Montaulk LIRR ROW for subway usage.
I agree, that $2 billion dollar waste the PA spenttheir money on most likely won't serve as much people. If the MTA got into using the old LIRR ROW built to subway standards, it would have been far cheaper and more practical. The structure is there, why not just rebuild it already; everything is in place. Basically all you have to do is lay new track down, connect the QB turnoff at Rego Park, upgrade the structure and make other improvements and voila you got a service ready to roll.
Except for one thing... it makes SENSE!:-) Seriously though, I've been reading some of the other responses and everybody makes good points, especially Ron In Bayside. My only other objection to the AirTrain is that it has no track access to other lines in Queens, so its going as far as it will EVER go. If JFK had been made accessible from How Beach using the current "A" Line and Rockaway ROW, there would have been TWO subway routes to Manhattan, one to Midtown, the other to Lower Manhattan. Let the NIMBYs who would directly benefit complain about THAT...
It may eventually be extended as far as LaGuardia, but its non-accessibility to other systems is PLANED, as part of the funding that it receives. Do it this way or do it not at all!
Elias
Why must it be so, if the goal is sensible, efficient rapid transit which accomodated both today's and tomorrow's travel needs. New York City's constantly changing demographic demands this. Separate, nonexpandable systems have been known to be mistakes at least since 1940, when subway unification occurred. Also, to quote a transit author, "The purpose of Rapid Transit is to BE RAPID!" How rapid can your trip be if you must change trains-and carriers-several times during your trip?
Why must it be so, if the goal is sensible, efficient rapid transit which accomodated both today's and tomorrow's travel needs.
AirTrain is being financed by surcharges on airplane tickets, hence the airport-only restriction. It's not meant to be a part of the overall rapid transit system.
I don't mean to be smart, but why is there a five dollar fee to ride it, as well as an airline ticket surcharge? Did this thing actually cost so much that federal funds, ticket surcharges, and a $5 per ride fee cannot cover the costs? All I can figure is that the Federal funds were either non-exsistant or extremely limited.
The $5 fee is assessed only on passengers traveling to or from the Howard Beach and Jamaica terminals. Somebody's gotta pay for the parking lot and interterminal passengers.
I don't think it is in subway standards to connect it to the subway system anyway. I believe there would be a branch that goes to LaGuardia airport possibly in the future.
I believe the AirTrain is built in subway standards (maybe even LIRR standards). It can run subway and (I think LIRR) trains physically, but politically it can not happen.
I don't think AirTrain cars can run on the LIRR because they are not FRA-certified as railroad cars and lack the LIRR's cab signalling and ASC speed control apparatus. However with little modification these cars WILL make clearance on the IND. This is according to a friend of mine who worked on the project for the PA. By the way, he's a railfan, too, and thinks AirTrain should have been part of the IND. How's that for irony?
Linear Induction cars can't run on the IND. They don't meet FRA stadards, and given the way they fell apart after the derailment, I don't even think the TA's.
I know, the cars looked so cheap. I believe that the AirTrain can't run on subway trackage to begin with; I could be wrong though but the special features you mentioned make is difficult to intertie to the subway.
"By the way, he's a railfan, too, and thinks AirTrain should have been part of the IND. How's that for irony?"
Understandable. With enough $$$, the E train could have been extended down the Van Wyck, underground, all the way into the airport. You would have had a couple of subway stations between Jamaica-Van Wyck and the airport. You might have had an Atlanta-style terminal circulator train feeding people cross-platform onto the E train. The circulator could have also served Howard Beach, as it will now.
I do like the route the E train takes now, though. Integrating Jamaica Station into its route was a good idea.
Oh, I'm sorry, you misunderstood. I meant the structure, not the trains. You are right the trains can't run on either the LIRR or the subway, but the structure could support subway or LIRR clearances.
I believe it could support subway clearences but I don't see it ever mixing with the subway and when you talked about it can't happen politically, of course it won't happen politically ;-).
Thanks for the kudos. AAnd I do agree with you here.
Good rail access to JFK could have begun back when it was still Idlewild Airport.
Then came Robert Moses, among other things...
PLEASE don't get me started on Robert Moses. BTW, historically, the original plans for the Van Wyck Expwy. DID call for a rapid transit ROW down the center median. Read "The Airport" by Robert Kaplan, for more on this....and you're welcome.
I agree - my stomach might start turning over.
Air Train only serves a select clientele; a subway into JFK would have served EVERYBODY...even those "shafted woodhaven riders"...
Correct. The funding that created the Air-Train was raised by taxing airline passengers, and as such could not be applied to a general transportation project, but only to a dedicated airport transportation project. In any event, the LIRR ROW would have taken you to MANHATTAN and not to JAMAICA, whcih is what they were trying to develop in the first place.
Elias
(Hey... it *was* their idea, not mine)
Two alternatives always get conflated in these debates:
1) "Why not do a subway extension to JFK?"
Money. As a subway project, it would be MTA's and thereby fall behind East Side Access and Second Avenue in the pecking order. That means twenty years away or more. Say what you will about the PA plan (and it isn't perfect for sure), but at least it will be running later this year (hopefully).
2) "Why not use the old Rockaway?"
NIMBY. It's NOT because the PA couldn't do it with airport funds. The PA system runs AirTrains off of JFK property, above the Van Wyck, and into an LIRR/subway hub at Jamaica. They could have just as easily run AirTrains off of JFK property, along the old Rock, and into an LIRR/subway hub at Woodside. (The old Rock ROW goes west beyond White Pot, all the way to Woodside -- the LIRR has a 6 track ROW through there.) The PA did the former instead of the latter because of community opposition. A huge aerial AirTrain station at the Woodside complex would have also been a flash point, if it had been pursed more seriously.
This is all moot, of course. The decision was made years ago. Something tells me "SubTalk" will forever gripe about this non-subway solution, even if the current approach is a roaring success. Can join "who let them tear down the els?" et al. as a regular complaint for years to come.
My lord... what a huge thread!
This is why I don't like Subtalk's format sometimes; it's hard to keep track of threads like these!
Everyone else here must have summed why it will never happen, but it's a pity it won't come true. This is one of the downsides of Democracy. :)
It IS a huge thread, isn't it? I just wanted to be starting something...(lol). But WOW, I never thought it would generate so many responses!
Keep up the good work!
It IS a huge thread, isn't it? I just wanted to be starting something...(lol). But WOW, I never thought it would generate so many responses!
Good for you! It's a great accomplishment. If I could, I would rehab it with my 2 bare hands! Who cares about anything, I'll jump into the forest and tear those trees apart. Don't take away my ROW! : )
Could I buy the ROW for $1 from the city and run restored R-9s on it? Just a thought...
I think you could... The city isn't doing anything else with it anyway... All you have to do is avoid those ravenous NIMBY's and you should be fine. :)
A little garlic around the neck, perhaps?
Kevin's back in action with a typically attractive page on the Brooklyn area Down Under the Manhattan Bridge Overpass.
Not Kevin's fault in the least, but I'm forming Stop Creating Ridiculous Acronyms Movement.
You'll just take heat from the people at Without Acronym, New Neighborood Isn't Trendy.
Yeah, but I call it Dumbo, not DUMBO, just to tweak 'em
www.forgotten-ny.com
Nevermind stupid acronyms; the outright attempts at renaming neighborhoods is really, really annoying. Since when is Bushwick "east williamsburg"? And how utterly stupid are the trend-iods that move there thinking it's some cool place, only to end up being robbed and living nearby a large trash transfer facility and that toxic mint green colored end of newtown creek?
A sucker is born every minute.
Bushwick and East Williamsburg are two different things. East Williamsburg is the former third ward of the City of Williamsburgh. Just as there is a northside and a southside Williamsburg, there is also an EAST side, which is between Union Avenue and Bushwick Avenue. Parts of this area have absolutely NOTHING in common with either Williamsburg or Bushwick. It deserves its own neighborhood name.
And it isn't a bad, crime-ridden, toxic place either.
yeah, just like how Long Island City deserves a name like "new-ho". (yes, some idiot real estate people really did try to market it as such)
You say e. willyburg, I say bushwick. - where the security guards at the Waste Management facility shoot live ammo at the seagulls & NY&A hauls off 10-20 cars of trash per day...
real estate people will try to repackage anything for a buck in this town, and a sucker is still born every minute...
Again, East Williamsburg and Buswhick are not the same thing. Bushwick is SOUTH of East Williamsburg.
Why don't you just call Greenpoint part of Bushwick, or Astoria part of Long Island City? It would be the same injustice.
Bushwick is south and east of willyburg.
You're entirely missing the point.
real estate people market bushwick as willyburg just to make a buck, and idiot trendoid kids from kansas that move here buy into it and pay an ass & an elbow in rent for it.... now that is injustice.
I agree that marketing actual Bushwick as East Williamsburg is wrong, but there is an East Williamsburg that is separate from either Williamsburg or Bushwick.
I thought that much of the Ridgewood and Bushwick areas were originally called East Williamsburg way back when.
Bushwick is older than Williamsburg. Until 1840, Williamsburgh was part of the town of Bushwick, which dates back to Dutch times. Boswijck in Dutch means Woods Town. Williamsburg was founded early in the 19th Century by Richard M. Woodhull (as in Woodhull Hospital). The hamlet was laid out by Col. Jonathan Williams and was named for Col. Williams, a nephew of Benjamin Franklin.
Williamsburgh was incorporated as a village in 1827, became its own town in 1840 and a city in 1851. Both it and Bushwick were taken over by the City of Brooklyn in 1854. The boundaries of Williamsburgh were the East River, Division Avenue, Broadway, Flushing Avenue, Bushwick Avenue, Woodpoint Road, then a diagonal line, then North 14th Street.
Part of the above is undoubtedly part of the neighborhood of Bushwick, since neighborhoods don't always follow 19th century political boundaries.
Pig, you sure know your Brooklyn stuff better than I do, but when I used to live in Ridgewood, I remember reading about the history, and I could swear that I remember reading that part of Ridgewood was called "East Williamsburg" at one time. I have some of the books somewhere. I don't have time to look now because I am on my way out, but if I have time over the weekend, I will look for it. It may even have been on a map too.
I am pretty sure you are correct. I intended to mention it in my post but forgot. Sorry.
Hi!
I shoot this photo when I visited NY last summer, from Brooklyn Bridge. Because of being a tourist from Japan, I didnft understand why DUMBO and elephants on the advertisement of building. That said gLive, Work & Play in DUMBO.h??? Now I understand what it means. This is an advertisement of the real estate agent, isnft it?
Thank you Paul!
Muneyoshi
DUMBO is the name of the neighborhood, District Under Manhattan Bridge Overpass.
Peace,
ANDEE
I thought it was Down Under Manhattan Bridge Overpass.
Oh, you're going to FIT RIGHT IN here. :)
Just wait until some developer comes up with "Be In Manhattan's Best Officespace" ... Uncle Selkirk needs some sleep. :)
With humor like that me thinks it is time for you to take a nap ;-)
Been doing an all nighter my friend ?
Given what I do, I tend towards the 30 hour days. It's the SUN that's outta sync I tell ya! Wondered why I was so TOASTED when we met at Branford? I'd gotten about 3 hours sleep prior to twirling around to AM shift on da railroad. So I live on that bizarre "work until it's all done, no matter what the script kiddies or Microsuck dish out and then sleep 8 hours for every 16 worked" ... such is life when you'se an Ontapanoor living upstate on "make your OWN job, dammit!" :)
But I think you'll get a kick out of what Unca Joe sent me this morning while I was hunting for nasties to protect our customers from. 3RD RAIL in CONNECTICUT! GLAD I didn't go sleepies, but I'm gonna NOW. Moo.
Well, it's all Joe Bruno's fault.
No, he's all forgiven ...
Joe Bruno Busted!
Joe Bruno Limousine (Hey, guess what's in the trunk?)
Joe Bruno Stadium
From lovely double-wide Rensselaer county ... moo. ('cept I live across the river out of his district in ALBANY county)
Gawd, what a hack!
Ya gotta love Albany International Airport. That means one flight to Canada right?
Kennedy is an International Airport, O’Hare is an International Airport, Newark is an International Airport. Heathrow is an international airport (I have never seen so many 747-400’s lined up).
But Albany-North-Podunk International Airport?! Gimme a break!
John
Hahahaha ... two flights to Canada now ... they actually have FOUR-SEATERS now, with INDIVIDUAL SERVINGS of tuna in-flight ... en-route entertainment is whatever you can pick up on a Watchman TV set outta Plattsburgh with the aerial fully extended.
I was kind ... didn't bother to add links to the "Joe Bruno campground," "Joe Bruno recreational vehicle park" or the "Joe Bruno trapping and shooting range." Some things aren't appropriate for subtalkers. :)
But yeah, they're PROUD in Rochester at the Limousine farm that Joe Bruno upgraded to the MINI-VAN! Woo-hoo! Joey's a HOT DATE!Heh.
Ya gotta love Albany International Airport. That means one flight to Canada right?
We used to joke this exact same way about Harrisburg International Airport! Actually, the designation "international" in airport names has to do with whether or not Customs and Immigration is on premesis.
Ya gotta love Albany International Airport. That means one flight to Canada right?
We used to joke this exact same way about Harrisburg International Airport! Actually, the designation "international" in airport names has to do with whether or not Customs and Immigration is on premesis.
Unsatisfied with mere "international" status, the people in Oklahoma City named their airport (OKC) Will Rogers* World Airport. And then you have Houston; with "international" being too commonplace, the main airport (IAH) is George Bush Intercontinental Airport. At least it really does have many international and intercontinental flights.
* = funny thing about Will Rogers, for a person whose sole connection with aviation was to die in a plane crash, he's got two commercial airports named after him (the other is Wiley Post-Will Rogers Memorial (BRW) in Barrow, Alaska).
...funny thing about Will Rogers, for a person whose sole connection with aviation was to die in a plane crash, he's got two commercial airports named after him (the other is Wiley Post-Will Rogers Memorial (BRW) in Barrow, Alaska).
This just goes to show you that insensitivity abounds in the naming of airports. Just as ironic is naming our National Airport after the president who fired all of the air traffic controllers.
Just as ironic is naming our National Airport after the president who fired all of the air traffic controllers.
Hang on, isn't that a labor relations success? It's better than giving the bastards a huge rise and you get people who are wiling to do the job for the pay offered. We should do that to those unreconstructed w@&kers who constitute our fire brigade over here.
"...labor relations success..." Just as WalMart is a retail "success", thanks to the non-union employees eager to work for slave wages.
Exactly ;-) it makes economic sense, you know...
it makes economic sense, you know...
...And this is the falicy in conservative thinking.
Just becaue it makes "economic sense," doesn't mean it is right or moral. To cite and extreme example, Hitler's subjugating prisoners and concentration camp "inmates" to hard labor in constructing parts for the Nazi war machine made "economic sense" too. (So did African slavery in the U.S. and elsewhere, but another poster already alluded to such).
But I suppose it's all a matter of degree, isn't it? Who gets to decide at what point this disparity in compensation between those who do the work and those who "manage" them becomes immoral? I don't believe it exists solely alongside that which is merely "illegal." We have only to look to Enron, Worldcom, Adelphia Communications, Tyco International -- the list goes on -- to see that this question deserves to be asked.
And since you bring up Wal-Mart, it was not too long ago that it was reported that this shining diamond of a corporation had an unwritten policy of promoting store managers who forced lowly Wal-Mart employees to clock-out and then continue working! Most of the non-union workers were willing to do so, having been brought up in areas of the country where working is thought to be a privilege, where you are respectful of your superiors, and, more importantly, where there are few other job opportunities. In my view, Wal-Mart's exploitation of this situation was immoral. It so happens, it was also illegal in this case. In the case of labor in third world countries, this immoral behavior makes "economic sense" as well, and is often also "legal."
But I suppose it's all a matter of degree, isn't it? Who gets to decide at what point this disparity in compensation between those who do the work and those who "manage" them becomes immoral?
It isn't immoral to have management receive ridiculously high compensation compared to their employees.
If there were stronger unions, these thief-owned and operated companies would have had disgruntled employees with POWER who would not allow their employer to take all that money while they got little or nothing.
The alternative to stronger unions is stronger government who will nationalise things if wasteful businessmen get in their way. Then screw the unions, get loads of immigrants to work for us and let's get back on the road to success!
The government's only purpose is to prevent people from killing each other, and to guard against foreign attack. There are a few other things that would be inefficient without government intervention, but that's that. For the most part, the economy would function better without government intervention, but some government intervention is sometimes neccessary to have a level playing field.
I see government intervention as the lesser of two evils in many cases. The choice between regulation by government and regulation by trade union is a case in point. There was an election in the 1970s when the Conservative Party's campaign slogan was "Who governs Britain?". It is a question that cannot be avoided.
It isn't immoral to have management receive ridiculously high compensation compared to their employees.
I disagree, to an extent.
Take Verizon, which just sacked 3000 or so employees in New York (former New York Telephone employees were surprised to learn that jobs they formerly thought were lay-off-proof, are no longer so in this new world of communications competition), while their executives took home their usual fat compensation packages.
After the firings, a Verizon executive wrote to the New York Times' editor, insisting that equating executive compensation with employee layoffs was unjust. She sang that corporate oldy-but-goody about how they have to shell-out the millions in yearly bonus cash to keep "competitive for top executive talent." I guess those who rule make the rules. When an employee is responsible for losing money, does he get a raise and a bonus? More likely, he's out on the street, even in a "good" year. Why should a C.E.O. be rewarded for poor corporate management?
If you are a corporate executive and your company loses money on your watch such that you have to lay of thousands of workers, or even simply such that you are unable to reward them with a pay-raise or bonus that year, your bonus and pay-rise should be ZERO. Period.
It is immoral for you to feather your nest on the backs of your employees if your own performance was inadequate. This is the same mentality that allowed Enron execs to rape their shareholders, employees, and the entire State of California, apparently without (psychological) guilt.
And before you paint me with a Red brush, let me assert that one should be allowed to make as much money as one can, legally, and that under no circumstances should the government take it upon itself to control, directly, the distribution of our country's wealth. I'm no Karl Marx. If you play by the rules, then more power to you. If your company does well, take the big fat bonus and buy yourself a summer home on the Riviera! If your company does poorly, you suck it up. That seems fair to me. (Note I did not say "equal," but "fair.")
The government should stay out of the boardroom. However, what the government can, and should, do is provide for the health, safety and welfare of those workers unable to benefit from the capitalist machine by virtue of unemployment. (It would be much easier to do this if we eliminated Corporate Welfare and had them pay their fair share of taxes to compensate for when they feel the need to divest themselves of workers.) Yes, there are some bad apples who take advantage of unemployment and welfare benefits. Should this preclude a safety net for those honest, hard-working folks who really want to work, but occasionally find themselves on the short end of the American Dream?
I'm much more comfortable with Sea Beach Fred's homeless guy in San Francisco getting a couple hundred bucks from the government than Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling getting to keep their Florida mansions. What allowed this outrage? California succumbed to the Conservative deregulate-at-all-costs philosophy and provided a shoddy market structure wherein Kenny and Jeffy were able to rob this homeless guy's fellow San Franciscans blind. (Yes, I know Gray Davis is a Democrat, but the idea to deregulate the energy markets and how to do it surely originated somewhere deep in the minds of readers of the National Review.)
And to think ... if only Verizon was willing to provide DSL services instead of using SLIC's, they would be earning MORE than enough money to have retained ALL of those employees. (SLIC's are to be used ONLY for emergency restoration of service after a disaster on a TEMPORARY basis, but better than half the exchanges upstate have had SLICs in place for over a decade - SLICs have such shoddy bandwidth that you can't even get 36k baud through them, much less T-1 or DSL) ...
Self-inflicted wound here. But Verizon *IS* the financial powerhouse behind a certain crooked Senator and his "Change NY" buddies ...
I don't believe that the example that you provided about Verizon is immoral. The executives were in charge and thus thought only about themselves. Unfortunately not enough people feel that they can band together to fight against this kind of injustice. Verizon feels that it can pull this off because there will be no retribution. Unions are needed to bring that kind of retribution about.
I'm not going to paint you with a red brush. I pretty much agree with you that unemployment benefits from the government are necessary with an economic system that pretty much requires that there be unemployment in order to maintain stability.
I believe in a taxation structure that charges the wealthy a higher percentage of their income than the less well off. Rich people can still keep the rest of their money and enjoy the luxuries that they earn. I am not in favor of the new Bush tax cut plan. The New York Post had an article about "families" that would benefit from the tax cut, they were all basically RICH couples.
I do not believe that the rich should be taxed because I somehow resent the rich, I would love to pay the extra taxes that I advocate for the rich. :-)
I'm much more comfortable with Sea Beach Fred's homeless guy in San Francisco getting a couple hundred bucks from the government than Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling getting to keep their Florida mansions.
Mansions notwithstanding, Lay and Skilling may yet find themselves in prison. The wheels of justice can turn slowly, but they do turn. Should that come to pass, Kenny and Jeff may find themselves re-living Ed Norton's shower room scene in American History X. Ouch!
...And this is the falicy in conservative thinking.
I disagree. I see the point as being more its failure to differentiate between lining unionised labour's pockets and real spending on services.
You must remember that when Britain was at its most successful unions were illegal on penalty of being transported to Australia.
Who gets to decide at what point this disparity in compensation between those who do the work and those who "manage" them becomes immoral?
Managers work too. Paying them above the correct rate is equally damaging. How do you think all these maintenance contractors have manaed to screw our railways out of the little investment our government has given them? Nationalise the b@stards, but screw the unions! If we run out of willing cheap labour, let the Albanians and Afghans in to do the work for us!
I don't believe it exists solely alongside that which is merely "illegal."
Of course immoral's not the same as illegal. By making things immoral you set up petty things which people will feel bad about doing so they won't commit real crimes. Where morality becomes dangerous is when people think it is moral to do things which are illegal, which is the point of getting them as far out of your country as possible.
it was not too long ago that it was reported that this shining diamond of a corporation had an unwritten policy of promoting store managers who forced lowly Wal-Mart employees to clock-out and then continue working!
Nothing wrong with that. The goons who clocked out and continued working didn't resign, so it's obviously possible to employ someone like that. You could go one better. Have this thing where you have to follow orders whenever they are given - ie being on call 24/7 - or you are sent to gaol for mutiny, but at a fixed rate of about $18,000 per annum. Hang on - that already exists - it's called an army.
Most of the non-union workers were willing to do so, having been brought up in areas of the country where working is thought to be a privilege, where you are respectful of your superiors, and, more importantly, where there are few other job opportunities.
Ie a situation conductive to growth.
In my view, Wal-Mart's exploitation of this situation was immoral.
Fuck morals, but don't tell the employees that.
It so happens, it was also illegal in this case.
That just shows there is too much labourite legislaion laying around.
Anyway, if a tree falls and nobody hears it, does it make a sound? In other words, if someone does something illegal and the authorities don't find out, is it a crime? It's certainly never recorded in the statistics as a crime.
In the case of labor in third world countries, this immoral behavior makes "economic sense" as well, and is often also "legal."
Which is why colonialism is a great idea. You buy out the third world country's management and you get the profits...
>>> Just as ironic is naming our National Airport after the president who fired all of the air traffic controllers. <<<
There was no irony intended. It was the Republican equivalent of placing a horse's head in the bed where union leaders were sleeping. Or don't you remember the days of the Contract on America?
Tom
Actually, the Albany airport was referred to by a now deceased local weatherman as the "Albany International Jetplex" ... always liked THAT name. But it's commonly known as "The Joe" owing to that big bronze bust that you have to stare at while having your shoes sniffed by snorkel the wonderdog. :)
At the time, all we had was turbo props. The bust is there to celebrate the shakedown of several airlines to bring in jets. They refused, but NYS taxpayers PAY the airlines to run the jets now as a result of all that chuckling up here.
For a bit of amusement I tried to see how the airlines would try and get from Birmingham International Airport (BHX) to Albany International Airport (ABY).
British Airways claimed that Albany didn't exist.
Expedia offered me:
Ł427.20 Air France and Delta, changing at Roissy (CDG) and Atlanta (ATL)
Ł448.00 Aer Lingus and Delta, changing at Dublin (DUB) and Atlanta (ATL)
Ł458.70 KLM and Delta, changing at Amsterdam (AMS) and Atlanta (ATL)
Ł477.70 Lufthansa and Delta, changing at Frankfurt (FRA) and Atlanta (ATL)
I then went to Delta's website. Amazingly they had heard of Birmingham International Airport. They offered me:
Delta all the way, changing at Brussels (BRU) and Atlanta (ATL).
I then went back to Expedia and typed in BHX and NYC. There is one direct flight a day, Continental to Newark. I suppose that shows that BHX is a real international airport, even though it's only got one transatlantic flight. As for Albany, can you go anywhere but Atlanta?
Birmingham has a couple of transatlantic flights (as do Manchester and Glasgow), but that’s not the reason there for the “International” designation. How many flights are there to European cities daily? I would also guess that the median plane size is a 737.
Albany International Airport shows a bunch of flights, most of which are on commuter planes, to lots of North East US destinations. There was one flight to Ottawa. Looking at the flight numbers (except for a Delta flight, all >1000), I would be surprised if Albany gets more than two big jets per day.
Selkirk: when the put up the bust for Joe B, did they actually do anything useful, like lengthening a runway, or installing jet ways?
John
How many flights are there to European cities daily?
It's something like 4 a day to Roissy, 2 to Fiumicino and there are some to Prague, Brussels, Frankfurt/Main, Amsterdam and Barcelona-Prat too. Dublin, I suppose, also counts as an international destination, especially as they have funny money now.
The irritating thing is that there are NO flights to Athens Eleftherios Venizelos Airport at all - you have to change at Roissy and spend huge amounts of money or have a nice train ride down to Heathrow (a real international airport).
I would also guess that the median plane size is a 737.
I'm no plane buff but I think you're right. They may use smaller ones on the Irish routes, but I've never been to Ireland, nor have any intention of going there. Certainly all the planes I've ever used out of Birmingham have been pretty large.
most of which are on commuter planes
Who would commute by plane anyway? Isn't it rather expensive? Heh - at that rate I could commute to Paris :-D - just give me Ł200 a day.
most of which are on commuter planes: Americanese for ~6-20-seater planes, almost always propellor driven used for short (<1 hour) duration flights. Think of a London-Birmingham flight.
Such is the dire state of American railways that these flights exist!
John
PS: When did they build a new Athens airport? Last time I was there ~1990, they only had Ellinikon. Is that now back to being purely military?
Think of a London-Birmingham flight.
Doesn't exist, but they will sell you a London-Birmingham air ticket. The one catch is that you have to change at Glasgow and consequently it takes longer than Virgin's pisspoor train service!
Such is the dire state of American railways that these flights exist!
Doesn't say much for the WCML that you can fly Heathrow to Glasgow. Says even less for Midland Mainline that you can fly from London City to Sheffield.
When did they build a new Athens airport?
It was some time mid-90s. It's a long way out of the city up in the mountains. Last time my archaeology tutor was out there, it snowed and all the planes were grounded.
1990, they only had Ellinikon.
I have fond memories of that place where you arrived and walked down the steps presidential style onto the tarmac and got onto a less than presidential style bus to possibly the worst international terminal building in the civilised world. It was appalling, but it was great!
I don't know what it's used for now, but it may well have reverted to the military.
Yeah, Joey shook down two airlines that left to at least run ONE jet into the "Jetplex" ... his BIG "praise" is bringing in Southwest Airlines, and giving them taxpayer gelt to fly ONLY RJ's (Regional Jets) into here. The deal involved Bombardier (who makes the jets) and a certain transit authority, but then Joe's off topic, the Bombardier dealings are kinda off topic. Bombardier and Bruno have nothing to do with subways. :)
his BIG "praise" is bringing in Southwest Airlines, and giving them taxpayer gelt to fly ONLY RJ's (Regional Jets) into here.
??????
Southwest doesn't use RJ's.
Maybe they're somebody else's then, but they ARE Bombardiers. Please bear with me, I just don't care about flying - if the train doesn't go there, I don't. But here's what we have listed down below, and there's LOTS of RJ's that fly over here ...
Major
Carrier/Commuter Airline Service
Carrier
Jet Airline Service
Non-Stop
Service
One-Stop,
Same Plane Service
American
Eagle
Chicago (ORD)
Continental
Express
Cleveland
(CLE)
NY-Newark (EWR)
Columbus
(CMH)
Minneapolis (MSP)
St. Louis (STL)
Delta
Atlanta (ATL)
Cincinnati (CVG)
Colorado
Springs (COS)
Delta Connection
- Atlantic Coast
Cincinnati
(CVG)
Delta Connection/Commair
Cincinnati
(CVG)
Northwest
Detroit (DTW)
Minneapolis (MSP)
Houston (IAH)
Nashville (BNA)
St. Louis (STL)
Southwest
Baltimore
(BWI)
Las Vegas (LAS)
Orlando (MCO)
Austin (AUS)
Chicago-Midway (MDW)
Louisville (SDF)
Nashville (BNA)
Norfolk (ORF)
Orlando (MCO)
Reno (RNO)
United Express
- Atlantic Coast
Indianopils
(IND)
Kansas City (MCI)
Milwaukee (MKE)
Norfolk (ORF)
Sarasots (SRQ)
Tampa (TPA)
West Palm Beach (PBI)
Commuter
Airline Service
Carrier
Non-Stop
Service
One-Stop,
Same Plane Service
Air Canada
Toronto (YYZ)
American
Eagle
NY - JF Kennedy
(JFK)
Continental
Connection
- Commutair
Allentown/Bethlehem
(ABE)
Bangor (BGR)
Boston (BOS)
Buffalo (BUF)
Burlington (BTV)
Harrisburg (MDT)
Hartford (MDT)
Islip (ISP)
Manchester (MHT)
Montreal (YUL)
Portland (PWM)
Providence (PVD)
Rochester (ROC)
Saranac Lake (SLK)
Syracuse (SYR)
Westchester (HPN)
Plattsburgh (PLB)
Boston (BOS)
Islip (ISP)
Lebanon (LEB)
NY - LaGuardia (LGA)
I would say that the Delta flight(s) to ATL, the Northwest flights to DTW and MSP, all the Southwest flights and the United flight(s) to ORD are mainline service with "regular" jets. Possibly the USAirways flight(s) to CLT and Air Canada to YYZ. Everything else uses RJ's or props.
Sorry I don't follow the airlines too closely. Only thing I can tell you is that up until Joe went for his bust, everything was a prop or turbo prop Trans-Dogpatch puddle jumper. The STATE is SUBSIDIZING jets now for "prestige" ... many fly empty and fly ONLY because the state pays for them to come in and leave for "prestige" ... but that's why Joey got his bust. Mind ya, the new building is pretty and all, but this is Podunk fer krissakes. Many more people use the train.
I then went back to Expedia and typed in BHX and NYC. There is one direct flight a day, Continental to Newark. I suppose that shows that BHX is a real international airport, even though it's only got one transatlantic flight.
I believe Birmingham also has some flights to the Middle East. Pakistan International's flight from JFK to Karachi stops there, at least it used to, it may have switched to MAN.
it may have switched to MAN.
That wouldn't surprise me! It seems that Birmingham has been getting the shaft in favour of Manchester for years!
PAKISTAN INTERNATIONAL -- I DON'T THINK SO
Pakistan International Airlines flies four times weekly to Islamabad (direct flights), and twice to Karachi (with a stop in Istanbul).
Why do you find this surprising? Birmingham (England) has a large Pakistani population. Obviously enough to support the traffic.
John
Birmingham (England) has a large Pakistani population.
Very large. There are entire areas of the city where practically everyone is of Pakistani descent and most of the rest are Bangladeshi. Otherwise, there are large Indian, West Indian, Kenyan and Ugandan minorities. Birmingham is one of the least white cities in Britain, which is saying something seeing as it's got Sutton Coldfield (very rich, very white) tacked onto it.
I haven't got the exact numbers, but the population of Birmingham is in the region of 1,000,000, of which about 300,000 of which are from ethnic minorities, 150,000 of which are Pakistani, making them the second largest ethnic group after White British.
(And no, this doesn't mean that everyone's in league with the Iraqis, even though two of the men held at Guantanamo Bay for fighting for the Taleban are from nearby Tipton and in the North of the city is a mosque called "the Saddam Hussein Mosque".)
Birmingham is one of the least white cities in Britain ... I haven't got the exact numbers, but the population of Birmingham is in the region of 1,000,000, of which about 300,000 of which are from ethnic minorities
Talk about perspectives ... if there were a city in the United States with a population of 1,000,000, and 300,000 of them were from ethnic minorities, it would be one of the most white cities in the nation.
Yes, but you will find in both pockets of high and low ethnic concentration.
I think I know where you went wrong to ABY ... you needed to check the schedules for dirigibles and autogyros ... See why AMTRAK is so important around here? :)
Somebody really needs to assassinate this bastard.
No.
They just need to vote him out of office.
One can only hope that next time around, the Electorate of New York will see through the “Bread and Circuses” mentality of the political candidates.
He's run absolutely UNOPPOSED the last two election cycles. Even the IRAQIS got to vote "yes" or "I wanna die" for Saddam. :(
And I assume you realize that Dumbo is the name of an old Walt Disney animated movie about an elephant.
Funny you should ask...
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SCENES/DUMBO/dumbo.html
DUMBO is the name of the neighborhood, Down Under the Manhattan Bridge Overpass. Maybe they put the elephants in "honor" of the Disney character ;-).
There are elephants on the building, but are there elephants in the room?
I've thought that the elephant in the room expression is funny because the thought of an elephant standing in a room is HILLARIOUS
I'M BRIAN FELLOW!
I'm just wondering, will this line ever even touch with the other two LRT lines? It seems kind of wierd to me, having three light rail lines, and yet to move equipment from one line to another, you need a truck (alright so theres a connection between the Green and Blue lines, but thats it, no green trains run to metro center). When the Gold Line comes in, it will be completely separated from the Blue and Green Lines, although I think I once saw one map which showwed a connection as possible.
A few more questions:
-Will the Gold Line be a subway at Union Station, or will it be on the surface?
-Will the Gold Line be High Platform like all the other LRT lines? It would seem that LA's decision on this is odd. Their use of High Platforms only cars precludes the possibility of street running as seen with Trolleys, but it speeds loading at very crowded stations. I'm assuming that the Gold Line will follow suit, so as to be compatible with the Blue and Green. However, had the Blue line been built some 5 years later (I'm not even sure when it was built, I know I was out there then, but never rode it, I know Speed shows the Green Line ROW in the middle of I-105), it would be interesting to see if they would go all high floor like now, all low floor, or some kind of high floor equipment with traps.
-If the Gold line equipment is compatible with the Green and Blue line equipment, then will LAMTA begin swapping cars between the three routes? Will the gold line end up with old Blue line cars while Blue line passengers are treated to new Gold Line cars mixed in with their older equipment? Also, does anybody know the maker and designations of those trains?
-Can you get from the Green Line to the Airport? And if not the what the heck is wrong with the LAMTA? They have a line that runs down the 105 to El Segundo, and the Have not yet figured out that they happen to be close to the airport! It's unbelievable that, with all the focus that the NYMTA and PANJNY has put on getting new york's airports service, LAMTA has quietly ignored it's line running right to the airport!
Thanks
[Can you get from the Green Line to the Airport? And if not the what the heck is wrong with the LAMTA?]
Yes: Take the Green Line to the fittingly-named Aviation Blvd Station, then transfer to the free "G" shuttle bus to any terminal. It's tortured, but doable.
BTW, the Green Line WAS built with an allowance for a branch into the airport. AFAIK those plans are doomed to sit on a shelf somewhere, especially after September 2001.
I thought the Green Line never made it to LAX because the airport thought it would lose parking money if there were a convenient rail link to the airport. Is that at all true?
Mark
While that hasn't been publicized, I'm sure it is a very good reason.
Other reasons included "the trains' lights will confuse the airplane pilots on approach to LAX" (The tracks would have run at the east end of Runway 25R/25L, right where the AT&SF ran since gawd knows when). (Solution: build a wall on either side of the tracks. If the damn airplane is going to land short of the runway and crash, it's gonna hit the runway lights if the wall isn't there anyway.)
They're also ignoring that train lights don't seem to bother the aircraft at airports in Atlanta, Philadelphia, St. Louis, and Chicago.
For that matter, what about all the lights on the roads and freeways near LAX?!
Mark
I seem to recall it was claimed that the electricity in the catenary would interfere with an airplane's electronic guidance system. This was another "reason" for denying Green Line access to the airport.
The Baltimore Light Rail runs right into BWI Airport with 750 DC in the trolley. No aircraft problems have ever been reported, despite the fact that the line crosses THREE approach paths.
Sounds like more "we don't want no stinking transit in our wonderful airport" in Los Angeles.
i got al lot of pics at the airport station whith the break-away
so called ( not finished ) .....etc...
where the green line was supposed to go to da airport !!
hold your breath ...
>>> I'm just wondering, will this line ever even touch with the other two LRT lines? <<<
Not in the foreseeable future. The Gold Line is being built on the cheap using existing ROW where possible. It goes to Union Station which is at the north end of downtown. The Blue Line enters downtown from the south and ends underground almost a mile south of Union Station.
>>> Will the Gold Line be a subway at Union Station, or will it be on the surface? <<<
There is an elevated section which brings the Gold Line to Union Station. There are plenty of surface platforms at Union Station, so I assume one of them will be converted into a terminal for the Gold Line.
>>> Will the Gold Line be High Platform like all the other LRT lines? <<<
The Gold Line will be high Platform, like the Blue Line which does have street running in both Los Angeles and Long Beach with center platforms.
>>> If the Gold line equipment is compatible with the Green and Blue line equipment, then will LAMTA begin swapping cars between the three routes? <<<
There has been swapping between the Blue and Green Lines, but since the Gold Line will be physically remote from the other two, swapping with the Gold Line would be very unusual.
Can you get from the Green Line to the Airport?
Yes there is a free shuttle bus running from the Green Line to the Airport. It is used mostly by airport workers rather than passengers. Most Angelinos flying from LAX who do not drive or have someone drop them off at the airport take a limousine service from home. Business travelers arriving at LAX rent cars, tourists take hotel buses and limos. The Green line is not a convenient way to go to downtown L.A. from the airport. Local bus service would be more convenient and quicker.
Tom
>>> Will the Gold Line be a subway at Union Station, or will it be on the surface? <<<
<at Union Station, so I assume one of them will be converted into a terminal for the Gold Line. >>
The Gold Line will occupy the space where tracks 1 and 2 used to be on the Union Station platform level (tracks 3-8 I think are used for Metrolink, all other tracks are used by Amtrak)
What about the old sealed up underground line in that area? Does/will any of these new lines use that?
What's going on with that new Red Car line that was supposed to open up around San Pedro?
"Old sealed up car line" ??
You must be referring to the former Pacific Electric "subway" that ran from Glendale/Beverly Blvds. into downtown at 5th & Hill.
Most of the tunnel is still there, but the Union Bank Building and the Bonaventure Hotel were built after its abandonment, and the foundations/parking garages of those buildings were built right THROUGH the tunnel!
In other words, it's not continuous any more. It wouldn't serve any purpose.
I never knew exactly where the line ran, I just heard there was some old station or something. They should use as much of it as they can for one of the new lines. Just build around the Bonaventure if possible. Wouldn't it be interesting if LA had an old subway station like NY and other older systems?
>>http://www.erha.org/pewhs.htm<<
link to website concernng the PE Tunnel
Great information.
Hill St. between 4th and 5th would place it adjacent to the Red Line Pershing Sq. station. They should have at least incorporated it into the new subway station.
I think they should still open as much as they can, and perhaps dig out the filled in section to use as a historic railway, like what they are doing on Brooklyn's waterfront. Perhaps a shuttle serving the Bonaventure.
>>> Hill St. between 4th and 5th would place it adjacent to the Red Line Pershing Sq. station. They should have at least incorporated it into the new subway station. I think they should still open as much as they can, and perhaps dig out the filled in section to use as a historic railway, like what they are doing on Brooklyn's waterfront. Perhaps a shuttle serving the Bonaventure. <<<
The thought is nice but completely impractical. There is nothing left of the old Subway Building terminal that could be incorporated into the Red Line station. The Red Line is a no nonsense people moving subway designed to be run with as few personnel as possible. There are no station agents, turnstiles, drinking fountains or rest rooms. The architecture is open without nooks and crannies for security purposes. Even though the Subway Building is immediately adjacent to the new station, the PE line ran perpendicular to Hill Street, and there was a 500'+ walk through the building to get to the basement terminal. The terminal itself was very utilitarian without art work. The tunnel from the Subway Building leads only to a dead end, without any stations or places for stations. Since the purpose was to burrow under Bunker Hill, it is a deep tunnel, not cut and cover
New construction on Bunker Hill has gone through the filled in portions of the tunnel. At the dead end portion there is a concrete wall. The Subway Building has fallen on hard times and was closed completely for quite awhile. There is talk of converting the building into condominiums as has been done with several older downtown office buildings, but at the moment there is no shortage of housing, and some of the other conversions are still looking for buyers. For tourists, Angels' Flight (if it ever reopens) is ˝ block away.
Tom
This comment from the website: "... the final touches on the terminal; placing tile, terra cotta and marble." gave me the impression that the old station was ornate. Plus what I used to hear about it gave me that impression as well.
So if it can't be apart of the new subway, than the dead end section could still be used as a museum, and if the concrete wall at the end is apart of the Bonaventure, then as I said, it could be a nice little ride for its guests. If the terminal building is empty or being converted, now would be the ideal time to do something like that.
>>> the final touches on the terminal; placing tile, terra cotta and marble." gave me the impression that the old station was ornate. Plus what I used to hear about it gave me that impression as well. <<<
I saw the interior of the station on a local TV program about it. There was nothing there except the old tower. I think the tile, terra cotta and marble was in the Subway Building Arcade leading to the station. The old waiting rooms were just dusty empty rooms, no seats, or anything left there.
>>> the dead end section could still be used as a museum <<<
A museum containing what? The PE no longer exists and there is no access to the area larger than a double doorway. This is at the back of an unused building in an area of downtown that has not yet seen redevelopment. Who would pay the expenses of a museum at that location?
>>> if the concrete wall at the end is apart of the Bonaventure, then as I said, it could be a nice little ride for its guests <<<
The Bonaventure is on the other side of Bunker Hill, and there are skyscrapers between the terminal and the hotel. These are what are blocking the tunnel. But even assuming the tunnel could be opened, how many hotel visitors would want to ride a subterranean rail line to an empty building four blocks away? That is an idea only a dedicated rail fan would consider.
Tom
museum containing what? The PE no longer exists and there is no access to the area larger than a double doorway. This is at the back of an unused building in an area of downtown that has not yet seen redevelopment. Who would pay the expenses of a museum at that location?
But even assuming the tunnel could be opened, how many hotel visitors would want to ride a subterranean rail line to an empty building four blocks away?
What I said assumed that the terminal building would be redeveloped. And it would be nice access to the Red Line for them.
Like any other transit museum, it could contain transportation memorabilia. It could also be used for filming, etc.
(I wonder if this was one of the tunnels that was supposedly filled with lava in that movie about a volcano erupting in the middle of LA)
If you ever saw the movie MacArthur with Gregory Peck, the entrance to the old PE subway line was used as the entrance to the Corriggidor Tunnel
The old tunnel entrance is also in the movie "Colors".
>>> the entrance to the old PE subway line was used as the entrance to the Corriggidor Tunnel <<<
I drove by during the filming, and even though I did not know what film was being shot, I recognized the set as a representation of the Corregidor Tunnel.
Tom
The San Pedro Red Car line has been delayed....info I got from an inside source says it has something to do with the Federal Railroad Administraion.
....you consider union station a part of downtown los angeles......
......??..............
i sure do not ...!
>> downtown los angeles.<<
OXYMORON
ever seen union station in person ?
yes, Many Many times, Remember I lived in LA from 1958-1994, used Metro Link as recently as Xmas 2000 with Slow Beach Fred your neighbor, and Union Station is Downtown LA
If it is not in downtown LA where is it. South Pasadena or Arcadia?
here are some links one to my yahoo web page another the city page
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GoldLinePasadenaLosAngelesMTA/
here is the other highlight it paste it into your URL
http://www.la-pasblueline.org/
also there is some plan to build a light rail, exposition area
To answer your questions:
1. The Gold Lien will be a open air surface station at Los Angeles Union Station, occupying what was tracks 1 and 2 of the station complex.
2. All the stations are high=platforms. This includes street-running portions of the Blue Line (i.e. Washington Blvd.in Los Angeles; Long Beach Blvd., First Street and Pacific Avenue in Long Beach) where the stations themselves are set in a separated street median. (The Blue Line was built in the late 1980's and opened in July, 1990.)
3. The cars are compatible from the Blue, Green and Gold Lines. I'm not sure if the stock assigned to the Gold Line will ever be swapped with the other two lines as there is no physical connection. It would involve hauling cars via freight railroads to do so.
The Green Line was originally operated with cars 154-168, which were built to Blue Line specifications (and painted in the original Blue Line colors). Once the newer cars (with ATO systems built in) were delivered, the 154-168 went to the Blue Line as they are now running some three-car trains there.
The Green, Blue Lines' equipment was all built by Nippon-Sharyo (Sumitomo). I'm not sure of the model designations...and I've only seen the Gold Line stuff in photos, so I assume it was also built by N-S as it appears to be the same stock as on the Green Line.
4. Yes, you CAN get from the Green Line to the airport, disembark from the train at Aviation (Blvd.) station, go downstairs and take the free "G" LAX Shuttle bus.
Just west of this station, you can see the already-constructed "wye" trackway, minus rails, for the intended branch off the line to LAX and possibly to Santa Monica. It's doubtful this will ever get built, though.
The equipment now being used on the Green Line (and soon on the Gold Line) is built by Siemens-Duewag, designated "P2000" I think
U - R right !!
the gold line was supposed to direct link with the long beach blue
line .......... ( same type of lrv rolling stock ) .........
however we believe the mta taj majal building ......
................was more important to them !!....( la mta )...
the blue and green lines have connecting intersecting crossovers
the connection is at the rosa parks center station (S)
it is where the I 105 freeway runs also ( green line ) ...
the red line " subway 2 nowhere " is its own failed system
the reason why we say this here is because the red line should have
used the same rolling stock used on the blue , green & gold lines !
the "f" up the whole system here ...
except for the blue line ....
we will wait & see how the gold line will actually do here only
going to union station and NOT downtown los angeles .....
>>>>>>>>>.whew !!!
You keep saying the Red Line to Nowhere, Don t tell me Hollywood Universal City and No Hollywood are no where. There are more people there then in Pasadena, which has 1 event a year and try to find a place to park.
They were going to build a light rail connecting along the old SP Van Nuys branch out to the West Valley, but that died because of the NIMBYS.(that was the route of the old PE Van Nuys and Canoga Pk Lines)
you do not remember the first thing it was called ??
" the los angeles red line the subway 2 nowhere " .....lol...!!
plus the fight to build it compatible with the green / blue line ..
& run it along side the freeways and get it out of the ground ??
& the homes / businesses / lives lost to the construction alone?
& dont forget the MTA TAJ MAJAL " billion dollar building " ???
gee some how i remember like it was today !!
.......lol !!!!!!!!
How about the Gold Line the Trolley to no where? What is in Pasadena, The Rosebowl which it will not come near to or the Norton Simon Museum, which will be a mile away.
Well the Gold Line will come in handy for getting to the Tournament of Roses parade (I think there is a stop a couple blocks south of Colorado Blvd).
Story here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2619829.stm
(Yes, the Brighton Line, the real one.)
Yeah, you made us look, and my heart skip a beat when I still thought it was "our" Brighton Line.....
(Yeah, you made us look, and my heart skip a beat when I still thought it was "our" Brighton Line.....)
I think British James couldn't resist the urge to show up how many of our names are knockoffs. What I am doing in "Windsor Terrace" next to "Kensignton" anyway? Thank God for the Indians, or all our names would be knockoffs.
Because people from India are more creative than people from Britain, or are you talking about Native Americans?
people from India are more creative than people from Britain
That's definitely true. There's a big problem in certain parts of the UK with Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi people getting out of paying speeding fines because when asked who was driving the car they say "my uncle" and when asked where he is the answer is "gone back to the Maharashtra/Gujurat/Kashmir/etc"...
I once tried to find station names in common between the NYC Subway ans the London Underground, and I could only come up with Kew Gardens. (Brighton, UK, isn't a tube station, and anyway it isn't called Brighton Beach.) Can anyone find any more?
Well, the spelling is off. But on the LIRR, the stations of Hempstead and West Hempstead and almost replicated on the London Underground as Hampstead(Northern Line) and West Hampstead (Jubilee Line).
Bill "Newkirk"
The closest I've come is Broad St (J/M/Z) and Broad St (former terminal of the NLL, closed some time in the late 80's).
Otherwise Essex St (J/M/Z) and Essex Rd (Northern City), Broadway (LIRR) and Ealing Broadway (Central, District, BR(W)).
The London Underground headquarters offices are at 55 Broadway, and sit on top of a station - but the station's called St James's Park. I've often thought it would be fun if it were called Broadway.....
It's certainly one of the hardest stations to find from the surface! I bet no-one would notice if the name were chnaged to Broadway!
"Broadway (LIRR)"
Why not Broadway (G) and Broadway (N & W, Astoria line)?
Because I forgot about them! :-D
Our Brighton line probably wouldn't close for a derailment -- trains would bypass the blockage on the express track.
Not necessarily. It depends on how severe the derailment is (one wouldn't want to foul an adjacent track, would one?), whether workers need to access the stricken train from an adjacent track, and whether power has to be cut.
David
Of course. I'm just being a bit facetious, playing on the flexibility afforded by a four-track line.
And what if it happened on the express track?[lets hope a derailment doesn't happen anywhere in the forseeable future]. You would probably have to institute emergency shuttle buses to get passengers where they need to go.
I doubt a train would have derailed on the express track today, since there was no express service. If something did derail there, run everything around it on the local -- where everything should be until tomorrow morning, anyway.
A blockage on the express track is less disruptive than a blockage on the local track.
Actually there are two other tracks on a slightly different alignment on that section (one set were built by the London Brighton and South Coast, the other by the South Eastern and Chatham - don't ask me which is which - those companies duplicated eachother a lot and because of the capacity needed on the Southern Region much of the duplication is still around). The only people totally screwed are those at the local stations between Redhill and Purley who have got a shuttle bus and half an hour stuck on the journey times. Redhill to London tickets are being accepted on Connex changing at Tonbridge.
Latest report on the Brighton (England) line - this morning (Friday 3 January) Thameslink services from Bedford were running their normal frequency to Brighton, so I guess the line is cleared and re-opened now.
I spoke too soon. Actually the line will not reopen fully until Monday.
I know this is in really bad taste, but in a way it would be cool if the Brighton Line had been closed completely - it would give a chance to ride a really strange diversion - Brighton to London via Horsham and Epsom - that would be precariously close to it running into Waterloo! I could just about imagine the faces of the Brightonians at the announcement "the next stop is Ewell West"!
If it was a catastrophic derailment, it would. In Greller's book, there's a pic of a standard which suffered a major derailment just south of Ocean Parkway. One car landed almost perpendicular to 3 of the tracks (at this time, the tracks leading to the lower level at W8th from the Brighton Line were still in place). I'm positive that closed the line for a while, at least south of BB.
Looks like they still run those Mark-1, slam-door EMU's.
Yes, he derailed train was a slam-door one (I saw it on the BBC TV news). Not all of the trains on the London-Brighton line are slam-door, though; newer trains run there too.
Incidentally the line isn't completely blocked; the landslip is on the Quarry Line which bypasses Redhill, and a reduced London-Brighton service is running via Redhill station. (You could think of the Quarry Line as the express tracks and the Redhill line as the local tracks.)
They're great aren't they? I love the way you can open the door before the train's completely stopped and leap out onto the platform... I hate waiting for the conductor to release the doors on newer trains... all that safety balls grrrr goddammit... And what's with these trains without headcodes? I mean you can spot "18" a mile off and know it's a Chessington train and can rest assured it's not going to do something awful and have you end up in Esher or somewhere equally dire. Now you have to be able to read signs in much smaller writing... Much though I hate the Southern Region, I do love it in a way...
For some reason, they remind me of LIRR's arch roof MP-54's. It must be the almost identical length, height, arch roof, Westinghouse controller.
Love to see one of them shooting out to Babylon (with no passengers). Could you imagine what some idiot passengers would do here with slam doors at 80 MPH ?
Could you imagine what some idiot passengers would do here with slam doors at 80 MPH ?
Sadly, yes. You should've seen University Station in Birmingham in the rush hours when the slam door stock was still in service :-D
Does anyone here remember the R-44 (D) that derailed on the Brighton Line (NYCT) about twenty one years ago ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I heard about it, stuck truck if I remember right ... BTW, after MONTHS and MONTHS of insane workload, had a sorta day off New Years EVE and sat and looked at Heypaul's tape of our outing last Kissmoose, you and the sacred rollsign. :)
Been too busy to have the time, but my most EXTREME gratitude for not only showing up last Kissmoose, but also at Branford for the Arnine trip. Just wanted to say how much I *appreciate* your coming out to play. You're a REAL party animule despite yourself ... heh. Seriously, THANKS for BEING!
I certainly do and have mentioned it here before. It was early on a January morning (the 16th, I think) in 1981. The train derailed on the switches just south of the station and some cars almost landed in backyards. Right after that, the R-44s were banished from the Brighton Line (the residents had been complaining about vibrations from R-44s and R-46s damaging the retaining walls for years, anyway), and with the possible exception of the occasional gap train haven't been back since.
David
Is that why, when the Q ran some Jamaica R-32's in the post-9/11 plan, it didn't also run R-46's (with one reported exception)?
I doubt it. The objection was to 75' cars, which are heavier than 60' cars. 75' cars (R-68 and later R-68A) have been running on the Brighton Line since 1986 and I haven't heard any complaints about them from people who live adjacent to the right-of-way.
David
But you're heard numerous complaints from SubTalkers!
There was more than one R46 foray onto the Brighton line during that period. It wasn't THAT unusual.
Does anyone know the year B-type #2779 derailed at Ocean Parkway? From the looks of the pic I have, the car hardly looks like it was scratched, despite the severity of the derailment.
"Does anyone know the year B-type #2779 derailed at Ocean Parkway? From the looks of the pic I have, the car hardly looks like it was scratched, despite the severity of the derailment."
I think it was in the 1930's. Damn well demolished that tower. #2779 probably was returned to service after some work. Split the switch at Ocean Pkwy. God bless those BMT Standards, they don't build them like that anymore.
Bill "Newkirk"
AHHH, I thought you were talking about NYC Subway Brighton Line.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling Layout - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
You have to see this ebay auction.
Some wise guy is actually offering to give people a link to the best New York subway system website. He wants 99 cents for this information. And he is selling 99 of them.
I think we know which site he is talking about
Check out:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4152&item=2152519115
To make matters worse I don't think there is anything we can do about it. I wil complain to ebay but you know they won't care.
Why don't you list an item for sale in that category and mention www.nycsubway.org in the listing, that will mess him up.
Because I am a buyer, not a seller.
I am sending an email to ebay but I doubt if they will do anything.
I'll sell something
People can't be that gullible can they? All they have to do is type New York Subway in their favorite seach engine for free, and find it without $.99!
People can't be that gullible can they?
Lets hope no-one bites and he is out his listing fee
Well, *I* tried it on "alltheweb", and guess what site came in #1 out of 56,811 hits!
: ) Elias
No, that's only half-chutzpah.
Full chutzpah is selling the information on eBay and then asking for bids from websites to be "sold" as the "best" website.
Someone bought one of these things. See the first two feedback item links here: http://cgi2.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=positve-feedback
---Brian
This isn't really an auction item. It's "Buy it now" for 99 cents a hit. Multiply that by the 99 "available" hits, that makes it a cool $98.01. Is this guy hard up for $98 bucks or is he just seeing how gullible some people can be.
BTW, reading the description of the website link, it does sound like Kevin Walsh's Forgotten New York website. I think Kevin should have a look at this.
Bill "Newkirk"
Kevin could bid and give neutral feedback when he gets a link to his site.
Looking at other items offered by this seller, he's also selling access to what would certainly seem to be Kevin Walsh's hard work...
Auction # 2152521684
"This website has some great historical information on street names neighborhoods, old trolleys lines, cemetery information (you won't believe how many cemeteries there are in new york, that were built over and some that are behind apartment buildings!), some old pictures, and much much more. Also information on remnants of. You will really like this website and it is worth the 99 cents, You have my guarantee. If you are a fan of New York City, you will love this site."
CG
People will do anything to make a quick buck, sheesh what is this world coming to :-\. Don't bother complaining, don't waste your time over something as silly as that.
As P.T Barnum said so long ago "There's a SUCKER born every minute, and TWO to take them."
Good in the 19th Century, the 20th Century and still valid in the 21st.
Why someone would steep to such lows (just to get 99 cents for each one!) is beyond me.
Sorry to sound vulgar, but in all honesty, this person is an idiot.
(By the way, he has baseball cards up for auction too)
What's so vulgar about calling him a idiot? If you wanted to be vulgar, you could of called him an asshole or some other name but let me get back on topic. In this day & age, people will go to extremes to make money and selling links for 99 cents apiece is just absurd :-\.
Why is the guy selling the information the idiot? He's just capitalizing on other people's laziness. I think the real idiots here are the ones who pay for this information, when they can get the information fairly easily (and quickly). As for stooping to such a low for a mere buck, I see him to be a clever person who takes advantage of a situation. He's not degrading himself, or anything like that, anyways. The true beauty of American Capitalism.
As I said before, people these days do anything to gain quick $$ & I agree with your comment if he's making money off of it, then the people who were duped into that are the dummies & its unique [I guess]. I think this is a all new low for making money from online but if he's successful, more power to him; of course he won't get my money.
This is a common practice when it comes to pornographic websites. I've never seen it done with this type of stuff.
Unless the seller is Dave Pirmann or Kevin Walsh, it's in violation of the Downloadable Media policy.
Tell that to eBay.
>>> Unless the seller is Dave Pirmann or Kevin Walsh, it's in violation of the Downloadable Media policy. <<<
No it is not in violation of that policy. All he is selling is a link to a website. He is not trying to sell the content. If he were to advertize to sell a history of the IND, and then provided a link to this web site, that would be a violation. He is just saying he will sell information; how to connect to an interesting web site.
A bigger question is why do so many on this board think this is such terrible thing to do? He is not promising the world to potential buyers or suggesting that he has secret information. The price is not outrageous. Believe it or not, there are computer users (particularly just after Xmas) who do not know how to do a Google search. This person is providing them a service. The whole basis of business is to find people willing to pay for a good or service and provide it to them and make some money in the process.
Tom
All for sale, all for sale, all for sale ... suddenly I don't feel so guilty about doing what *I* do for a living, cleaning up people's computers for a price and GUARANTEEING happiness and support. I depend on folks buying "our mud" to pay for the time for me to do this and continue to provide that support no matter what Netscape, Microsoft and a few other natty companies do.
That all said, this guy's a lowlife. :)
Then again ... he ain't Enron or Halliburton. Ken Lay *Still* walks the streets. Morals? I practice them ... but I seem a lone wolf these days. :(
Agreed, in general.
I do have some reservations about people who offer to do something for you at an outragious price that you can do yourself for free.
Example: charging $1,000.00 in contesting a bad credit history for you. Of course, there you have the issue of a "credit repair" company promising to do something they cannot actually do, hence the fraud.
I do have some reservations about people who offer to do something for you at an outragious price that you can do yourself for free.
Example: charging $1,000.00 in contesting a bad credit history for you. Of course, there you have the issue of a "credit repair" company promising to do something they cannot actually do, hence the fraud.
According to something I read a while back, those "credit repair" companies actually do work, sometimes. Their usual modus operandi is to send a barrage of requests to the creditors on the customer's report, asking each creditor to offer proof of its debt. Under federal law, a creditor must respond to such a request within a set period of time, or else the debtor is entitled to have the item stricken off his or her credit report. Credit repair companies anticipate that at least some of the creditors won't be able to respond in a timely manner if hit with multiple offer-of-proof requests. I have heard, however, that most creditors have caught onto this ploy and now have sufficient resources to comply with even large volumes of requests.
>>> Credit repair companies anticipate that at least some of the creditors won't be able to respond in a timely manner if hit with multiple offer-of-proof requests. I have heard, however, that most creditors have caught onto this ploy and now have sufficient resources to comply with even large volumes of requests. <<<
What you describe is what the more reputable (in a comparative sense) credit repair operations did. Others went into blatantly illegal methods which opened their clients up charges of fraud.
I investigated the field about five years ago, and decided not to enter it. What really shot it down was the increasing availability of court records over the internet, making it possible to verify judgments and bankruptcies in minutes without leaving one's office rather than physically sending someone to a courthouse to verify records.
Tom
One of the finest railroad web sites on the entire internet was also victimized by this kind of enterprenurial sleaze. The following message appearred on the home page of George Elwood's site at http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/
THE END ???
It has come to my attention that a company named Blue Flame Productions Company has downloaded many of the images from my site and is distributing them on CD. Many of the CDs are being sold on eBay without permission from me or the owners of the images. Checking the Ebay site of items being sold, I was able to identify most of the images shown as sample as ones from my site. Also available on these CD are the operator manuals which I scanned and made available on my site. I don't have time to surf the net and don't belong to eBAY so this whole thing caught me by surprise. I have already heard from several submitters to my site who are considering legal action.
Thanks to those of you who reported this to eBay.
That's terrible! Arrest the bad guys and send them to jail for a long, long time!
---Brian
Really, what is so wrong with it? People buy TV Guide to recommend TV shows. So what's so wrong with paying for a recommendation to a website? Besides, it may be one of our regular posters. So you might be reporting a friend! And who knows? Someone who'll pay a buck to get to SubTalk may be the type who'll make an Amazon Click To Pay contribution to Dave!!
Someone who would try to make money on the backs of others is no friend!!
Reminds me about the guy once who was selling a fool-proof bug killer. $19.95. Guaranteed to work 100%. Included in the package was 2 bricks and a sheet of directions. The directions read:
1) Put bug on top of Brick #1
2) Slam Brick #2 on top of Brick #1.
I wonder if these bricks would work on those rats in the Montague Rat-nnel.
I'm sure someone can come up with a rat killing kit that's guananteed to work. Only $19.95 plus shipping and handling.
Maybe someone should send him the link to this thread.
...better yet, maybe someone should sell him the link to this thread!
What the Hell? At least he's giving Dave props about having the best site. I'm gonna give Dave 99 cents via paypal just for this one! Jackass on e-bay.
I am interested in the movie posters that are posted on the walls of most subway/el stations. Who (what company) is responsible for posting them up? How large are they? (dimensions) Also, does anyone have photos of them?
I scanned four b/w photos today which were taken by my grandfather in 1936 during his visit to the US. Two of them are views of the 6th Ave. el while the other two are more of a mystery. One was taken at an el station with a train pulling in. It appears to be a Dual Contracts el structure, judging from the canopies. No station signs are visible. The other is an elevated structure which I don't recognize. Can anyone identify either of these locations?
You can see them here. The ones in question are the first two.
Cool photos!
---Brian
I think the Bklyn El one is Knickerbocker or Central.
wayne
I think Wayne is right. I believe that that big theather looking building in the backround is still there, but painted white at Knickerbocker Ave. If that's true the train would be on the Manhattan-bound platform at Knickerbocker. If this is the 1930's, there was still an express track there.
I can't be 100% sure, but check out some photos of the Metro-bound platform of Knickerbocker, and I think you may see that building. It may get you a step closer.
I know my grandfather delivered a lecture in Brooklyn, but have no idea where. Judging from the fact that the train in the photo is definitely a wooden el train on a Dual Contracts structure, it would have to be either on the Myrtle Ave. portion east of Broadway or Broadway-Brooklyn itself where it shared trackage with Lex trains.
At ant rate, thanks for the replies.
Wooden cars also saw regular service on the Culver line in 1936. That picture could only be of Ave. X if it was taken anywhere on the Culver. It could also be somewhere on the Fulton el between Nostrand and Rockaway. I can't tell if the car in the pic is a gate car or a C type. Probably isn't anywhere along Fulton if it's not a C type.
I'll take a guess at the first one, captioned "mnhtnel." This would be the one you described as the elevated structure you don't recognize.
I'd say it's looking south on the 9th Ave. el (view taken from the west side of the street) at the junction where the Sixth ave el meets it, coming crosstown on one of those streets in the mid 50's (I always forget which one).
Looking at the middle right of the picture, the structure appears to have two levels, with an upper one curving away, while the structure underneath continues south. If this is correct, the track curving away, would be the southbound 6th Ave. track. It also looks as though the structure underneath is supporting and following these tracks as they turn away (east?). This gets tricky here because I can’t quite make out the structure for the southbound 9th Ave. track which would be continuing underneath and beside it. All other photos I have seen of this junction, are views from above, looking down on the 6th Ave. line as it turns north into 9th Ave., above the other structure.
It might also just be one of the double decked express stations, and the upper track structure is just narrowing and centering, as it ramps down to meet the others. Could it be 34th St. and 9th Ave. maybe? - presuming your grandfather took these photos all on the same day, strolling in the same general midtown area.
I'll take a guess at the first one, captioned "mnhtnel." This would be the one you described as the elevated structure you don't recognize.
I'd say it's looking south on the 9th Ave. el (view taken from the west side of the street) at the junction where the Sixth ave el meets it, coming crosstown on one of those streets in the mid 50's (I always forget which one).
Looking at the middle right of the picture, the structure appears to have two levels, with an upper one curving away, while the structure underneath continues south. If this is correct, the track curving away, would be the southbound 6th Ave. track. It also looks as though the structure underneath is supporting and following these tracks as they turn away (east?). This gets tricky here because I can’t quite make out the structure for the southbound 9th Ave. track which would be continuing underneath and beside it. All other photos I have seen of this junction, are views from above, looking down on the 6th Ave. line as it turns north into 9th Ave., above the other structure.
It might also just be one of the double decked express stations, and the upper track structure is just narrowing and centering, as it ramps down to meet the others. Could it be 34th St. and 9th Ave. maybe? - presuming your grandfather took these photos all on the same day, strolling in the same general midtown area.
I'll take a guess at the first one, captioned "mnhtnel." This would be the one you described as the elevated structure you don't recognize.
I'd say it's looking south on the 9th Ave. el (view taken from the west side of the street) at the junction where the Sixth ave el meets it, coming crosstown on one of those streets in the mid 50's (I always forget which one).
Looking at the middle right of the picture, the structure appears to have two levels, with an upper one curving away, while the structure underneath continues south. If this is correct, the track curving away, would be the southbound 6th Ave. track. It also looks as though the structure underneath is supporting and following these tracks as they turn away (east?). This gets tricky here because I can’t quite make out the structure for the southbound 9th Ave. track which would be continuing underneath and beside it. All other photos I have seen of this junction, are views from above, looking down on the 6th Ave. line as it turns north into 9th Ave., above the other structure.
It might also just be one of the double decked express stations, and the upper track structure is just narrowing and centering, as it ramps down to meet the others. Could it be 34th St. and 9th Ave. maybe? - presuming your grandfather took these photos all on the same day, strolling in the same general midtown area.
Those photos are not consecutive on the original 35mm negative except for the two 6th Ave. el pics. I'm pretty sure they weren't taken on the same day. This was the last leg of my grandfather's trip. He shot four or five rolls of film in NYC alone, including a Circle Line trip around Manhattan (which originated in Battery Park in those days) and a boat ride out to the Statue of Liberty.
The location I guessed at, the junction of the 6th and 9th ave. els, is pretty specific and could be tricky to ID from a street photo, unless one is familiar with the location (either from having have seen other street photos, or been around then). If it is not that corner, I'd still say that it's probably one of the double tracked express stations in Manhattan.
<>
..........WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I went home and checked this out last night. I watched the Roger Arcara tape I have (L-2: 6 & 9th Ave L's; Old Brooklyn L's). The crosstown el tracks from 6th Ave. do meet the Ninth Ave. el tracks at grade. It's the Ninth Ave. Express track which crosses over the southbound 6th Ave. track as it curves from 9th Ave. to go crosstown.
The structure in your photo looks nothing like what was in the film.
It does appear to be either a double decked express station on one of the Manhattan els or the approach to it.
---------------t!
The chevrons/carrots I put into my previous post eliminated the quote I wanted to include from a post of mine yesterday.
Here's how it should have read:
“… The location I guessed at, the junction of the 6th and 9th ave. els, is pretty specific and could be tricky to ID from a street photo, unless one is familiar with the location (either from having have seen other street photos, or been around then). If it is not that corner, I'd still say that it's probably one of the double tracked express stations in Manhattan. …”
..........WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I went home and checked this out last night. I watched the Roger Arcara tape I have (L-2: 6 & 9th Ave L's; Old Brooklyn L's). The crosstown el tracks from 6th Ave. do meet the Ninth Ave. el tracks at grade. It's the Ninth Ave. Express track which crosses over the southbound 6th Ave. track as it curves from 9th Ave. to go crosstown.
The structure in your photo looks nothing like what was in the film.
It does appear to be either a double decked express station on one of the Manhattan els or the approach to it.
Those are really great pictures Steve. Thanks for posting!
My guesses on the two mystery photos even though I have no idea. The second picture just looks like a Bway Bklyn station such as Gates or Chauncey. Did Broadway have uncovered third rails then or just the all-el lines? On the first picture, the fact that the middle of the roadway seemed to be closed off by chains probably means it was not a busy area such as midtown. Even in the 30's there was a lot of traffic in midtown.
In the pic at 6th Av and 44th it looks like Rockerfeller Center in the upper right background.
There's an interesting history behind these photos.
My grandfather took tons of photos, both b/w in M45 and 35mm and later 35mm color, before he came to the US permanently in late 1948. During his 1936 visit to the US, he shot some 40 rolls of b/w film. When it came time to flee Lithuania in 1944, he took most of his color slides with him, but left all his b/w material behind. For years we thought all of it was lost.
In 1992, we visited Lithuania for the first time since the Baltic Republics became independent and were presented with a stack of prints my grandfather had made before fleeing. Many were pics of his US visit in 1936. At the time we thought that was it, but at least it was something. Two years later, my folks were given an entire cache of my grandfather's b/w negatives - everything from 1929 thru 1944. It turned out that a gentleman entered my mother's family house in Kaunas after they had left and salvaged whatever he could: negatives, silverware, books, etc. He kept it all for nearly 50 years without telling anyone. One evening I started looking through those negatives, especially the ones from the US trip and was blown away. Miraculously, the negatives were still in excellent shape, if not a bit brittle. At first my folks suggested I pick out what was interesting, but after seeing how mesmerized I was, we decided to take everything home. My father said something I'll never forget: "This was your grandfather. If his only grandson won't take them, no one else will." To his credit, my grandfather labeled and cataloged everything, so it's easy to look up a 35mm negative. In addition, virtually every M45 negative is individually labeled and dated. He even made a wooden chest of drawers to hold everything, and we brought that same chest home with us. My mother remembers watching my grandfather make it. He had his own darkroom.
Somewhere my grandfather is smiling knowing those negatives are back in the hands of his family. I personally thanked that gentleman for salvaging so much material. We all thanked him. He's still alive today.
P. S. In 1994, we saw a photo of his displayed at a hydroelectric lpant in southwest Lithuania. I subsequently found the original M45 negative dated July 27, 1935. Incidentally, those prints I scanned were reprints from the original 35mm negatives.
Does anybody know how the Multi-colored flipdots on WMATA Breda and Rohr Metrorail cars work or if they are even multi-colored? If not, are the cars permanently assigned to their home line according to their flipdot colors?
The flip-dots are broken into 2 zones----One zone is always yellow, where the destination is located....the other zone has dots representing the five lines and are all five colors. Whichever line the train is on determines the flip dots...As for trains being restricted on a particular line, not on the Metro, all are interchangeable however they do like to keep series on certain lines just for the sake of efficiency and organization. In regards to destination signs on the Metro, I was very fortunate to acquire a roll sign from a Metro car before they went to dot-matrix. It has such classic destinations on as Rhode Island Avneue, Dupont Circle and Ballston, plus, it has Huntington as a Blue Line station, NOT Yellow....of course, in the early days, Huntington was supposed to be Blue and Franconia was supposed to be Yellow.
Mark
Where in hell did you get one of the roll signs? I checked with Adrian C. Sclawy over at The Office of Surplus Property about 4 years ago and he told me he had none and had no idea what happened to them. I would pay top dollar to lay my hands on one of the original roll signs.
I assume the roll sign you have does not have Dulles Airport on it, as the sign that were in the Rohr car when they were shipped from Georgia had station name on them that were never built along with stations that would not normally be considered terminal stations.
Oh, and by the way destination code 36 is for Dulles Airport. If you happen to be friendly with a train operator you might ask him to manually set the destination code to 36. I would be very curios to see if Dulles Airport would be displayed in the sign boxes.
Enjoy,
John
I wonder if it still is that way.
Only codes I know off hand are:
07 SILVER SPRING
09 GROSVENOR
10 SPECIAL
12 SHADY GROVE
13 GLENMONT
John,
I didn't get the roll sign from Adrian, although I do know that Adrian does have some surplus Green Line Shortcut maps---As for the roll-sign, as luck would have it, I was able to get it through Lem Procter directly, apparently all the roll signs (at least the ones that were left over) were left at the Brentwood yard. When I went to the HQ to pick mine up, I saw about 3 others on a conference table in his office.
As for the destinations, you can see where all the destinations that used to be on it for the Green, Yellow, and future extensions were stripped from it---I guess it made it easier on the barcode readers to remove them completely as the scroll spun around.
What I do have is like going back in time, you see Rhode Island Ave, Dupont Circle, National Airport, Stadium/Armory, Addison Road, New Carrollton, Ballston, Huntington (In BLUE), and a whole host of other stations ranging from King Street to McPherson Square.....It also interesting to see the strip maps that used to show inside the train...certain anomoly's that never made it to present day rail service, for example, Fort Totten being a transfer point for the Red, Green AND YELLOW Lines, or the Blue Line going to Huntington as originally planned.
Hmmmm---top dollar for the roll sign, I wonder, just how much is top dollar?......hmmmmm....
I'm considering bringing it to DC when we do the railfan day on 4/5
I know about the Green Line Shortcut maps. He gave me a set when I last saw him on 04 27 2001. Back in 1999 I purchased all of the surplus rail car maps dated 1996. These are the map that were used in the system prior to the opening of the Glenmont station. I have about 1400 of the regular maps and 300 of the Emergence Evacuation Instructions Map. I have been slowly selling them www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/wmata/.
I don’t visited this forum very much as I spend most of my online time on USNET, so I am not up to speed on you 04 05 2003 get togather. It would be fun to confer with other WMATA metrorail fans. I am kind of a lone wolf fan as I have not spent much time with other to discuss there verying fan interests in WMATA.
I live down in Calvert County in southern Maryland.
I would be happy to bring a hand full of the maps to sell to any body that might want a set of them.
My primary interest is the construction and engineering aspect of the system. Back during the 1970s and 80s I walked through most of the tunnels during construction. Road my bicycle through the Potomac river tunnels before tracks were laid. I have complete sets of construction drawings of about 6 of the downtown stations. Back in the 1970s when I lived in DC near Dupont Circle I volunteered in aiding Cody Pfanstiehl then WMATA Director Of Community Service run public walking tours of the of the construction sites. We had a lot of fun doing this a lot of people got to see areas of the system that are now off limits to the public. Got my first train ride in back in 1975.
Enjoy,
John
Well, now I know who was behind that site. Could you be so kind to tell me what happened to the rest of your site? I found it very informative!
If you would like to join us on the SubTalk DC Trip on April 5th, send me an e-mail. For more info, visit the Upcoming Events page.
"WMATA metro and other stuff" was pulled down because I was not satisfied with the amount of coverage that I had on and I did not have time to add more content to it. The content still exists on my file server. I have added and updated some stuff to it. It will reappear some time in the future.
Judging by what you said, I can guess Metro had plans for using some crossover stations as turnbacks... though how it'd get done at King Street is beyond me.
No Vienna? Or was that not built then? If they knew what would be built overall (i.e. the completed system as of 1/13/2001), then the sign could look like THIS:
SPECIAL
No Passengers
Instructtion Train
Red:
Shady Grove
Twinbrook
Grosvenor
Friendship Heights
Van Ness-UDC
Dupont Circle
Farragut North
Judicary Square
Union Station
Rhode Island Avenue
Takoma
Silver Spring
Wheaton
Glenmont
Orange/Blue:
Rosslyn
Foggy Bottom-GWU
McPherson Square
Federal Triangle
Smithsonian
Federal Center SW
Eastern Market
Stadium/Armory (forward slash or hyphen?)
Orange:
Vienna
West Falls Church
East Falls Church
Ballston
Court House
Cheverly
New Carrollton
Blue:
Addison Road
Arlington Cemetery
Huntington
Blue/Yellow:
Pentagon City
National Airport
Braddock Road
King Street
Yellow:
Franconia
Springfield
Van Dorn Street
Green/Yellow:
Greenbelt
College Park
Prince George's Plaza
West Hyattsville
Fort Totten
Farragut North
U St.-Cardozo
Shaw-Howard Univ.
Mt Vernon Sq-UDC
L'Enfant Plaza
Green:
Navy Yard
Anacostia
Naylor Road
Branch Avenue
... that's just a guess, though.
Well, to answer your earlier question, the reason they went to flip-dots was that the current configuration of roll signs was flawed. In essence, they kept breaking down and were a bitch to repair. The computers in the rail cars were designed to read a particular barcode that would have an assigned destination to it....the problem was, these barcodes were easily scratched, thereby making them unreadable. The computer would spin the roll sign from one end to the other looking and unable to find a particular barcode and would eventually "give up"---at the time, this really wasn't that big of a problem because in the early days, you didn't have multiple lines sharing track, it only became apparant when the Orange Line to Ballston debuted in 1979 that you could have two trains on the same track w/ two different destinations. So, they scrapped the roll-signs and went with the flip-dots, which has been reliable since.
As for the lack of certain destinations and the inclusion of others, before they got rid of the roll-signs altogether, they stripped a lot of the roll signs of non-existant stations in order to increase the odds that the computer would find the station (barcode) that it was looking for-----as for King Street, my guess would be that before Van Dorn and Franconia were opened, the Maintenance Yard was in use, thereby, a train headed south towards Huntington, could make it's last revenue stop at King Street before swinging west to the yard, and in the case of Vienna, you're right, the roll signs were long gone before the Vienna segment opened.
Vienna still should have been on the rolls. Show it to me in April if you bring it.
I believe the original signs actually may have had every station including ones that don't have crossovers, such as Cleveland Park. This would be useful when you get people jumping in front of trains, since Cleveland Park was once used as a terminal in that circumstance.
Also, according to "The Story of Metro" by Ron Deiter, part of the problem with the roll was that since it was so long, it jerked, causing the barcodes to be missed. Chicago uses roll signs on its trains but from what I understand, they only have about 12 readings including only one provisional reading (Ford City on the Orange Line). Those signs are reliable and are still in use today.
As I recall the phase opening terminals had the white text station names on Red, Blue and Green fields, the Yellow line had black text station names on the Yellow field with the strip map of the line shown on the in side sign box. All of the odd ball terminals were white text station names on black field both outside and inside
Red Line
White on Red with inside strip map
Glenmont
Wheaton
Silver Spring
Farragut North
Dupont Circle
Van Ness
Grosvenor
Shady Grove
White on Black inside outside
Tokoma
Union Station
Judiciary Square
Friendship Heights
Medical Center
Twinbrook
Blue Line
White on Blue with inside strip map
Addison Road
Stadium-Armory
National Airport
Huntington
White on Black inside outside
Eastern Market
Federal Center SW
Smithsonian
Mcpherson Square
Foggy Bottom-GWU
Rosslyn
Arlington Cemetery
Pentagon City
Braddock Road
King Street
Eisenhower Avenue
Orange Line
White on Orange with inside strip map
New Carrollton
Ballston
West Falls Church
Vienna
White on Black inside outside
Cheverly
Clarendon
East Falls Church
Green Line
White on Green with inside strip map
Greenbelt
U Street
Gallery Place
Anacostia
Alabama Avenue
Branch Avenue
White on Black inside outside
Collage Park
Chillum
Fort Totton
Georgia Avenue
L'Enfant Plaza
Navy Yard
Naylor Road
Yellow Line
Black on Yellow with inside strip map
Greenbelt
U Street
Gallery Place
Van Dorn Street
Springfield
Franconia
Along with other White on Black inside outside
No Passengers
Special
Dulles Airport
I don’t recall ever seeing Instruction Train or any other station names that were shown as future on the 1974 ARS
Many thanks. That answers half my question about the destinations. What half? Well, I guess Smithsonian was meant as a terminal, so what of Federal Triangle? Is not the crossover directly between the stations (as opposed to being in the tunnel just before one or the other station)?
Uh... were they all so badly misspelled? And just how does one turn back at Eisenhower Avenue? Or Rosslyn for that matter? I wonder why Rosslyn is on there and not Pentagon; both are nearly impossible to use as turnbacks.
Interesting... they had enough sense to only include the shared terminals on the signs once, not under BOTH lines that used them (IOW, no Pentagon City under Blue AND Yellow) Just as interesting is the fact that Dulles Airport is the only provisional sign, and is a white on black sign. 1) How were they so sure of this extension, and not of those shown on some older phase maps which included Laurel, Bowie, Lincolnia, Burke, Centreville, etc... 2) how is it "oddball"? Is it because it wasn't in the original phases? And why Gallery Place? isn't the crossover (actually a pocket track) between Shaw-Howard Univ. and Mt Vernon Sq? Why aren't they on the sign? WMATA is mixing me up...
Next question: Anyone know what the codes are for the flipdot signs? Or the CAFs, for that matter? Yes, I am nosey as the day is long, but this interests me.
Why is Gallery Place listed? It was the northern terminus for the Yellow Line when the line opened......There is a crossover switch between Gallery Place and Archives
"Why is Gallery Place listed? It was the northern terminus for the Yellow Line when the line opened......There is a crossover switch between Gallery Place and Archives."
To be precise the double crossover is on the north end of L'Enfant Plaza. This is why I listed L'Enfant Plaza as one of the white on black station on the Green line lest.
Only codes I have figured out are these:
07 SILVER SPRING
09 GROSVENOR
11 SPECIAL ?
12 SHADY GROVE
13 GLENMONT
And as someone else mentioned, 36 for DULLES AIRPORT maybe.
"Many thanks. That answers half my question about the destinations. What half? Well, I guess Smithsonian was meant as a terminal, so what of Federal Triangle? Is not the crossover directly between the stations (as opposed to being in the tunnel just before one or the other station)?"
In the case of Smithsonian the station out bound of the crossover would get its station name on the roll. In the case of most of the other stations the criteria would be the station physically closest to the crossover. I am not sure I listed all of the station, there might have been a Fort Totten in black and white on the Red line.
"Uh... were they all so badly misspelled? And just how does one turn back at Eisenhower Avenue? Or Rosslyn for that matter? I wonder why Rosslyn is on there and not Pentagon; both are nearly impossible to use as turnbacks."
Any misspelling should be attributed to me. As for Eisenhower Avenue, the Alexandria yard leads (C98) would have been used like they would be used for King street as you described in an earlier post. Rosslyn I have know idea.
"Interesting... they had enough sense to only include the shared terminals on the signs once, not under BOTH lines that used them (IOW, no Pentagon City under Blue AND Yellow) Just as interesting is the fact that Dulles Airport is the only provisional sign, and is a white on black sign. 1) How were they so sure of this extension, and not of those shown on some older phase maps which included Laurel, Bowie, Lincolnia, Burke, Centreville, etc... 2) how is it "oddball"? Is it because it wasn't in the original phases? And why Gallery Place? isn't the crossover (actually a pocket track) between Shaw-Howard Univ. and Mt Vernon Sq? Why aren't they on the sign? WMATA is mixing me up..."
The only shared terminal that I recall ever seeing was Greenbelt. Greenbelt was on the rolls as a terminal for both Green and Yellow lines. As for the Dulles Airport, I think that was put on there for political reasons. As you might remember there were as least 20 blank spots on the rolls to allow for additional station names to be added. I call them "oddball" because these station would not be used as terminals during normal operation. Gallery Place was black text on yellow field because the line and station to the south was opened before construction started on line and stations north of Gallery Place. The pocket track north of Mount Vernon Square was added and was not in the earlier plans. Both Green and Yellow line trains would terminate runs at Greenbelt. I don’t think WMATA had plans to short turn relay trains on the Yellow line at some point south of Greenbelt when the rolls were made.
"Next question: Anyone know what the codes are for the flipdot signs? Or the CAFs, for that matter? Yes, I am nosey as the day is long, but this interests me."
As for the destination codes, As far as I know there are the same as the codes used on the Rohr cars. The destination code are hard coded in the destination control hardware part of the train control system. The destination codes are used to not only set the destination signs but are also used to route trains through interlockings at junction, to pocket tracks at short turn terminals and at other location where there are crossovers. This is why there were all of those white on black station names on the rolls.
John
Thanks everyone. Each little bit helps. I could try deciphering the code myself, but one problem: I've NO idea what pattern there is. I'd guess one terminal would come first, then the "in-betwen" terminals, then another terminal... or, it could be like with the flip-dot signs SEPTA uses. The main terminals first, then the other turnbacks. Or it could be the relative same system as the rollsigns used, or in the planned phases. What really mixes me up is that SPECIAL is in the middle of the Red Line codes, and GROSVENOR and SILVER SPRING are two numbers apart, despite being used on the same runs. That suggests to me that they may use separate codes for Red Line and for the other four as well.
In addition, I've no clue what color order they go in. I'd guess Red, then Blue, Orange, Green, Yellow. Maybe Yellow before Green.
An educated guess at the codes missing, in numerical order.
00: NO PASSENGERS
01: INSTRUCTION TRAIN
02: EMERGENCY SVC.
03: RHODE ISLAND AVE.
04: FARRAGUT NORTH
05: DUPONT CIRCLE
06: VAN NESS
08: TAKOMA
10: UNION STATION
14: JUDICIARY SQUARE
15: MEDICAL CTR.
16: FREINDSHIP HTS
17: TWINBROOK
18: ADDISON ROAD
19: FRANC-SPRINGD
20: VAN DORN ST.
21: STADIUM-ARMORY
22: EASTERN MARKET
23: FEDERAL CTR SW
24: SMITHSONIAN
25: MCPHERSON SQ.
26: FOGGY BOTTOM
27: ROSSLYN
28: ARLINGTON CEM.
29: PENTAGON CITY
30: NAT'L AIRPORT
31: BRADDOCK ROAD
32: KING STREET
33: VIENNA
34: NEW CARROLLTN
35: BALLSTON
36: DULLES AIRPORT
37: WEST FALLS CHURCH
38: EAST FALLS CHURCH
39: CHEVERLY
40: GREENBELT
41: BRANCH AVE
42: U STREET (or was it, "U ST-CARDOZOO")
43: ANACOSTIA
44: COLLEGE PARK
45: WEST HYATTSVIL (or whatever, I'm sure it didn't fit)
46: FORT TOTTEN
47: GEORGIA AVE
48: SHAW
49: MT VERNON SQ
50: GALLERY PLACE
51: L'ENFANT PLAZA
52: NAVY YARD
53: NAYLOR ROAD
54: HUNTINGTON
55-99: I HAVE NO IDEA!!!
OK This is what I think I am going to do. WMATA holds there Metrorail Rodeo competition in June at the Greenbelt yards every year. It is open to the public. Have you ever wanted ride a train around the loop track at Greenbelt yard? Well here is your chance. Come early 0700 as train operator competition is one of the first things that happens. This is where I got my first look at the CAF cars before they put in revenue service and got some pictures of the interiors of the shops. Back in 2001 I got a look at New Carrollton yard. I will ask some body if they well let me change the settings for the destination signs so I can get the codes on one of car sitting on one shop tracks. Or simply ask if their is a list some where that I can get a copy of. To find out when the Rodeo takes place check the daily release page at the WMATA web site. WMATA usually announces the date and time of the Rodeo on there web about 2 week before event. I hope to solve the mystery of the destination codes.
John,
One small mistake, the Orange Line was Black on Orange, NOT White on Orange...also, on the Red Line, you're missing Rhode Island Ave, one of two original terminus'
See ya on the 5th.
Mark
"One small mistake, the Orange Line was Black on Orange, NOT White on Orange...also, on the Red Line, you're missing Rhode Island Ave, one of two original terminus'".
Opps!
John
I wonder what all the destination codes are in DC Metro. Moreover, what LINE would a Dulles Airport code activate? Or are there separate codes for line and terminal station?
When did they go flip-dot? I could guess at what destinations are on the sign. A very vague guess, but it'd be a challenge.
"I wonder what all the destination codes are in DC Metro. Moreover, what LINE would a Dulles Airport code activate? Or are there separate codes for line and terminal station?"
There are at least 100 codes 00 > 99 Others have posted the numbers they know. It would not be very hard to identify what number belong to what station terminals. All one has to do is look at the destination control display in the operators cab. As for the others. one would have to ask a friendly operator.
At the time the when the 1974 ARS was approved neither the Lincolnia or Dulles routes had colors. However as of some time last summer the Dulles route is now officially known as the Silver line. Plans call for trains to run from the proposed Middletown Road (VA277) station near Ashburn to Stadium-Armory with possible short turn westbound terminals at Dulles Airport, Wheel Avenue and Tyson West (Tyco Road) and possible eastbound short turn terminal at Tyson East (West Park).
Flip dot destination signs were first seen on the 2000 series Breda cars, and shortly there after the Rohr car were converted. There is no doubt in my mind that all of the destination that were on the rolls can also be displayed on the flip dot signs.
John,
Where did you find out that it was to be designated the "Silver Line"
Thanks,
Mark
Michael Malak posted a link to a Farfax Journal article on 05 04 2001 in USNET news group dc.urban-planning
The article in no longer on the Farfax Journal web site.
Quoting from Michaels post.
"WMATA staff are now referring to the Tysons/Dulles extension of Metrorail as the "Silver Line"".
John
Actually, it might be the White Line, as the metal signs for that color exist on the rear of the Green sign.
When you say that, do actually mean that the text saying "White Line" and an actual outline of a white circle is on the backs of these signs?
Mark
Hmmm, I never noticed...
That is what I am talking about. GREEN is on the back. You are free to draw your own conclusions. I just hope the line doesn't go anywhere near Anacostia.
John,
Have there been any othere articles since then to sort of solidify the "Silver Line" idea?
Mark
"Have there been any othere articles since then to sort of solidify the "Silver Line" idea?
If you have a subscription to the Washington Post online you might find some references in their archives. I have seen some articles in the Washington Times print addition that refereed to it as the Silver Line. I find this kind of odd but I did a exact phrase search at www.wmata.com and came up empty.
Like I said in my quote of the Michael Malicek USNET post, "WMATA staff" , This may be what it is being called internally.
The question that I have yet to get answer to is what letter will be assigned to the route. We know A, B, C, D, E, F, G, J, L and K are assigned to existing routes. This leaves I, H, M and the rest of the alphabet. I have been told by a source inside WMATA that letter I will likely not be used because it is to similar to the number 1. And I don’t think H will be taken out of the moth balls and used because it was once the designation of what is now the J route south of the Capitol Beltway VA I-495 / 95 from the 1970 ARS. The old J route terminal was to be at Backlick Road an the Norfork Southern Railroad right of way. This leaves M, and this is what I have been unofficially been calling it.
John
The north side of the plaza's now seeing some major changes. The elevated brick areas built during the 1982 fixup are now being ripped up, and the barriers at the edges of the plaza sidewalks have been removed. Chain-link fencing surrounds the construction site, and while some of it is covered over with tarp, other areas aren't. Being able to look east-west across the plaza without having the walls blocking your view is a pretty strange experience.
Work on the south (Foster Avenue) side looks like it will begin soon, since the aluminum wall cladding has already been removed in places.
(IIRC, while the plaza was renovated in 1982, the station and station house were overhauled in 1986/1987.)
Best to everyone in 2003
::D
I can't wait to see how it all looks once the Newkirk Av station is renovated [I use that station frequently (well its my home station) so I know what's going on :-)]. Yes, I've noticed the brick structures are being ripped out and more scaffolding is coming up on platform level. The chain link is a pain since it has made walking through more narrow but its temporary so I could deal with it. Best to you in 2003.
Thanks for the update on my old home station.
When you're on the northbound platform, did you notice those openings or barred windows in the concrete wall ? Years ago, there used to be signs covering those bars advertising the store directly above. I think most of the signs are gone. I remember Plaza Radio, a radio and TV store I bought many a 45 rpm record from, had a speaker that played music. I don't remember if it was used when I was young, perhaps some oldtimers who used that station may remember.
I also remember the major fiasco to extend the platforms to accommodate 10 cars in the mid 60's for Chrystie St. When you spoke of the removal of the old concrete retaining walls upstairs, I remember them without the chain link extensions. Also the original lighting on the Plaza was the old subway style gooseneck incandescent light fixtures used on outdoor platforms.
In the 60's when the platforms were extended, they removed the old light fixtures and erected these tall poles with mercury vapor lamps. That lasted until the early 80's rehab that has the current sodium vapor fixtures.
I have to stop by and check this out. I took some pics of the original station building before they rehabbed it. Glad I did that.
In closing, I remember the Ebinger's bakery on the corner of Newkirk Plaza and Newkirk Ave. Perfect location for commuters returning from a day of work, bringing home a cake. The chocolate blackout cake was my fave.
Bill "Newkirk"
When the Plaza renovation is complete, I hope the area will be better lighted than it is now, too dark in some spots when the stores are closed. And yes, how about a mini-Burger King or KFC to make the mall more attractive.
I agree, it is real dark there at night and a fast food restaurant in Newkirk Plaza would be good but is there any vacant space for this idea?
At the NW side (behind the Gulf gas station), it is possible to add retail space there, thereby closing that dreaded tunnel. I use that tunnel all the time but I wonder if other people feel safe at 11 PM using it.
Oh, yes near the gas station you could place it. The tunnel isn't really needed since you could enter near E 16 St on Newkirk Av but its a good "shortcut" to catch the train. I observed most people at night use the Newkirk or Foster Av entrance/exit over the tunnel.
Tunnel? Tell me more. (All I've ever done at Newkirk is transfer from express to local.)
It is a short about 25 foot long tunnel through the buildings to get to Marlborough Rd in place of a storefront. It is not underground.
They can't close that tunnel. It is actually the busier exit than out to Newkirk by the hardware store. It would also block off an entrance from the only easy parking. The merchants wouldn't like that. All of us that live in DPW would be up in arms, and make lots of noise.
There's nothing hidden on platform level and its actually a tunnel OUTSIDE of the station that leads to NP from Marlborough Rd. When they reduced the space it only made it more dark and less desirable but it is used a lot more than you think. I think its a surplus but as Zac said, people would not be happy with that and I think so too and its a good "shortcut" to catch the train.
>> ...how about a mini-Burger King or KFC to make the mall more attractive <<
(rant)
Fast food? Franchises? Yeech!
(/rant)
Seriously, remember that the new Mexican place (as opposed to the old Mexican place it replaced) has a good menu (including many viable vegetarian dishes for those of us so inclined), and they deliver. I like them.
What the plaza needs more than anything else, IMO, is for the tracks to be covered over to create a "real" Plaza. As it is now, there's the one side, and there's the other, connected only by small slivers of crossovers. Also, we do need at least one more good restaurant (why, oh why does every other storefront in this neighborhood seem to be a deli/grocery/bodega?). I harbor a personal dream of buying out the card shop next to the tunnel and the greasy spoon and turning it into a restaurant/bar with (seasonal) outdoor dining overlooking the line.
Speaking of restaurants, what we *really* need is a good pizza place. San Remo, over on Cortelyou, is edible, but not something you'd recommend to anyone. But at least it's not awful -- and they deliver.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
It's a neighborhood mall, not like Kings Plaza Mall when all of Brooklyn come to it. What do you expect, Adlemans? I'd just be as happy with getting a decent bite to eat late at night beside the Chinese restaurant, there are too many (five within a two block radius) in the area.
Exactly. At least there is a West Indian restaurant around there :-). NP and the area around there could use a little more variety, FIVE Chinese food stores, a pizza place [Lo Duca] that is so-so and 3 or 4 bodegas.
With Tuesday's early dismissal from work, I did a little Brooklyn railfanning and caught the LIRR from Flatbush Avenue. Going up to the street to look around while waiting for my train, I noticed a Chase Bank security guard standing at the top of one of the stairways. This sight jarred my memory a bit, and I recalled seeing Chase guards on duty there on the prior occasions I've used Flatbush. Chase has a large facility at MetroTech but nothing in the immediate vicinity of the terminal. Why would it have a guard stationed there?
To keep railfans from stealing its money train? ;-)
Maybe he IS a railfan...
Maybe he was waiting for someone before getting on the train.
Chase pays for private security to patrol the whole Metrotech-Fulton Mall area; I guess it might extend to the railroad terminal if a lot of Metrotech employees use that station to/from Metrotech.
Chase pays for private security to patrol the whole Metrotech-Fulton Mall area; I guess it might extend to the railroad terminal if a lot of Metrotech employees use that station to/from Metrotech.
That would make sense, although I don't quite like what it implies as to Chase's attitudes toward the safety of the LIRR terminal.
I'm not sure if they actually 'patrol' over there...I used to use the LIRR Flatbush Terminal until fairly recently. My guess is that those Chase guards are merely 'people watching' during a break in their tours, as I notice many chit-chatting with NYPD cops and/or the newspaper street vendors (and women passerbys) who frequent the entrance to the terminal.
They certainly didn't LOOK like they were on 'official duty' there.
Peter,
As someone who works for Chase and had spent 4 years at MetroTech (1992 - 1996) I can assure you that it is not the terminal but rather the area around the terminal (starting at the Chase MetroTech buildings)that cause the concerns.
Also the attitudes are based on employee concerns that were made to the company so don't blame Chase. F Y I - had the City not come up with tax breaks then Chase would have never moved to MetroTech. They had originally intended to go to Newport in Jersey City (which some of us wound up in anyway, albiet many years later).
When Metro Tech opened, they provided security every few blocks from LIRR to MetroTech plaza for the people who walked that distance. There were always fewer "guards" in the winter but when good weather rolled around they would reapear.
I used to work for Polytechnic in Metrotech, and some of the professors said the neighborhood used to be pretty bad. One guy had his briefcase snatched three times in the same year. There are a lot of housing projects around, North of Tillary, and just a couple blocks East of Flatbush. Flatbush is still pretty downscale, but crime doesn't seem to be a huge problem there anymore.
There is a highschool on Johnson street, just North of Metrotech. When it lets out in the afternoon, Metrotech is swimming with security. That much distrust is a sad sight, but I suspect that they wouldn't do it unless they had trouble at some time.
I've also seen Chase security guards at the entrance to the DeKalb Av station.
I used to work at Metrotech, and I am still an employee of Chase. The security guards have been there for years. When Metrotech opened the Fort Greene area scared lots of suburbanites. Chase provided these security guards up and down Flatbush Av. to ease the fears of all the Dashing Dan's that don't like to travel to the city. Many of the employees were transfered from Long Island against there wishes. When I worked there the guards were on duty during normal business hours. They were not present when the second shift left at midnight.
i have changed my handle as you can see above. anyways, my questions is this;
Is there any logical reasons for naming the pre unified subway cars Hi-V's, Low-V's, BMT Standards, Q-Types, C-Types and whatever else they are?
My other question is the same but this one is about the current R-type cars.
'R' stands for Revenue Contract number, you get the diffrent numbers from when they were purchased under what contract. Hi-V means high voltage, and Low-V is low voltage. Why they have this name i dont know? For the rest of them I have no clue.
Hi-V cars had all 600 VDC running through the motorman's controller. On Lo-V cars, the 600 VDC charges batteries, which feed the controller 32 to 40 VDC at a time. All subway cars today are technically Lo-Vs.
The A-type and B-type "Standards" were so called because it was the "standard" body design for the BMT's subway cars. After the Standards, the BMT put rebuilt gate cars, called the C-types into subway service, then ordered the articulated D-types (a.k.a. "Triplexes," for the 3-car articulated unit).
The letter Q may have been chosen for the Q-types because they were initially for use on the BMT's Queens routes.
What si the exact name of the colors used in MTA:
1- Fishbowl orginal green
2- Old look two tone green (both greens)
3- Current MTA Blue
4- Fifth Ave Coach Light Green (Sort of a greener shade of lime green).
If you have the HTML codes even better.
Fellow webmasters and Wayne (Slant 40) can you help?
There's only rain here in southern Brooklyn, but I'm wondering if there is any freezing rain or sleet in the outer boroughs that might create ideal conditions for Heavy Third Rail Arcing. If you live near an elevated line, please stick your head out the window and see if you can detect any blue flashing as trains pass by. Anyone in a traffic helicopter, who might do a scan of the 5 boroughs? I'm hoping to get some intense photos for the first issue of Third Rail Arcing magazine, which will appear quarterly.
I THINK THAT ARCS ARE A THING OF BEAUTY. An interesting spot to hear/see line switches arcing is on the #1 Broadway line. Go to the driveway of the Allen Pavilion on the downtown side of the Broadway Bridge. Go up about thirty feet or so and listen to the next downtown train as the line switch drops out because of the third rail gap.
driveway of the Allen Pavilion??
I checked my Avid Reader decoder book, and that expression is not a code word for today, so I guess the Allen Pavillion is part of Beekman??
Anyway, what exactly is a line switch?? Thanks...
The Allen Pavilion is part of Columbia Presbyterian Hospital. It is a a few hundred feet from the Broadway Bridge (#1/9 Line) on the downtown side on the Manhattan end. Someone looking out the window of a train going by can look right at it because it's on the hilltop.
The 'Line Switch' is a gizmo that I hope that Jeff H. sees this exchange and will explain it for me. It basically deals with producing a clean cut off for the 600 volts between the motor circuits and the third rail or trolley overhead. The break takes place at the line switch (usually under the car). If you know where to look you can sometimes see the flash when it does its job. I'm sorry that I cannot give you a better explanation. Maybe someone else readng this exchange can help if Jeff H. does not see this post.
"I'm hoping to get some intense photos for the first issue of Third Rail Arcing magazine, which will appear quarterly."
I wish I could subscribe, but I already purchase "Losing Head End Power Monthly", which includes fascinating shots of NJ Transit Comet II cab cars with the emergency lights on.
No sleet necessary; the rain alone made for some nice arcing between 46-Bliss and 52-Lincoln on the 7 last night.
Do you live nearby?? Can you hear the effects of the arcing on an AM radio??
Neither of the above. I may bring my portable shortwave next time I'm riding, though.
I forgot what I wanted to post about
But I'll start a new thread to ask it.
Trying to get on the Top Ten Posters for January?
You do THIS three times a day and you're a couple thousand to the good on next year's record.
Too much free time....(G)
Where was this baby located? I want more specific details than "Canarsie," although such an answer would be correct.
If you mean Carnarsie Trolley Terminal I guess you mean the trolley loops around the Canarsie L terminal near the shore at E95 & E96 St.
If you mean Canarsie Depot, Hegeman and Rockaway Avenues.
If you want to see photo and pick up a slice of pizza, the pizza shop next to the L just put up old photo of Carnarsie and East New Yark up on there wall. There are a few photo of the Cararsie Trolley Terminal has well as Broadway Juction and other site in these places.
Robert
I meant the latter.
Ah, yes. Southwest corner of Rockaway & Hegeman. The Church Avenue trolley loop was at a corner of this property (called Bristol Street Loop), and had track connections to the depot. At the end of Church Avenue service, both depot and connections were gone, the Church Line having previously been transferred tp 9th Avenue.
Is there areason why trolleys, and later buses (B35), originating at the 39th St Ferry have their routes wind up in Brownsville (Rockaway and Hegeman)?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Rockaway and Hegeman is (or was) considered Canarsie. Church was one of the few crosstown routes in southern Brooklyn, connecting the 39th Street ferry with Flatbush and Canarsie, where further connections could be made to the Canarsie Shore and the Rockaways, via ferry.
Is there anything left to see of the Carnarsie Terminal?
If we're still talking about Canarsie Depot (i.e., the Canarsie trolley barn) I think it's a housing project now, so, sadly, no.
Yep, that is what I was asking about, thanks Paul. Didn't think there was anything left of it, but it couldn't hurt to ask.
How about forgotten NY doing a page of the former carbarns before they disappear?
That sounds like something that would interest Kevin, but you need to know where they were, and, I guess, which are still around in some form.
Some of the car houses are, of course, bus garages now. Flatbush and ENY and Fresh Pond come most readily to mind. Fresh Pond was revived as a bus depot after a decade or more of non-use after the trolleys left. Canarsie and 9th Avenue come readily to mind as those of which I believe there is no trace. I wouldn't be surprised if there were some switches buried in the street pavement which you might hope could poke through.
As to the condition of others, even if I did know 30 years ago, I wouldn't be much help now.
The current Flatbush depot replaces the old trolley depot and is to the south (but on the same superblock). The old trolley depot site is the Power Playground.
Correct. There are two remnants visible from the old Flatbush trolley depot: two trolley poles are across from the Power Playground in a lot that was formerly a used car dealership (Utica & Ave. N -- n/w corner). I believe the property is still owned by MTA/NYCT.
I remember the same loop that everyone else recalls. However, I also seem to remember (back in the 50s) a green building on the west side of Rockaway parkway, just south of the Rockaway Parkway station that might have served a a barn. Does anyone else have any recollection of this building?
The 'Terminal' is where you catch the B-42 bus nowadays. Also, the area where the B-6 and 82 buses pull up to meet customers was also part of the trolley loop during the 20' through the 1950's.
If you mean the last stop of the trolley line, then that would have been near the Canarsie shore at approximately E. 95th Street and Skidmore Lane.
William Fausser wrote a book, about 1979, on the Canarsie RR that gives all the info you could want.
The title I believe was "The Brooklyn and Rockaway Beach Railroad". Perhaps you can find it at bibliofind, tomfolio, or alibris.
I believe he had intended to write a book on each of the "excursion railways" that preceeded the BMT lines in Brooklyn, but passed away having written only two, on the Canarsie RR and the "Sea Beach to Coney Island" I have, and cherish, both.
If my memory serves me correctly, I bought the Canarise RR book the night he passed away-after leaving an ERA meeting, from a heart attack.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/TROLLEYS/canarsie/canarsie.html
I have a question- probably Paul Matus knows, since once he was able to tell me where the old Consumer's Park station on the Brighton was-
I understand that the trolley was the replacement for when the Canarsie line actually went down to the water, and that the line was cut back to Rockaway Pkwy.- obviously, it was surface ROW because Rockaway Pkwy. is surface level, but did the original elevated line route follow the SAME path that the trolley later did? You see what I'm getting at? And, if so, where were the stops, or was it like the original Gravesend line, where the train stopped wherever the cord was pulled?
Thanks for your help in advance.
Okay- upon further thought, it dawned on me that on my 1925 BMT map, the extension past Rockaway Pkwy. was on it- so I looked, and saw that Flatlands Ave., Avenue L, and Canarsie were listed as stations. Were these actually "stations", meaning with platforms, or just designated train stops at corners, a la Gravesend line?
Yes, they were stations (wooden of course) and I believe set up as island-type platforms.
BTW, going back further enough -- probably the steam era of Canarsie Ops -- the line's stations had different names...for instance Avenue L was known as 'Holmes Station' so named for a prominent African-American family that lived along the ROW. Also, the terminal stop (by the water) was known as 'Canarsie Grove'. Flatlands was always there during this period, but there was also a station stop exclusively for the Liehmann's Hotel (IIRC, same building as the Knights of Columbus which was recently torn down at the ROW on Conklin Avenue).
The Canarsie is one Brooklyn Line with a very rich and interesting history...
Island platforms? I thought the line was surface ROW...I'm not challenging you at all, I'm just completely curious. Also, did it follow the route that the trolley later took over?
Hi Tony and Doug,
Yes, Avenue L and Flatlands were originally island platforms, but this meant, at most, a little jog in the tracks, and maybe only a short smooth cleared space between the tracks, possibly without even wood decking--at least by the time it was turned over to trolley opeation there was no longer a wood platform, if it had existed.
The trolleys ran on the same r-o-w as the L did. When the BRT decided to make its elevated division 100% third rail and (almost) grade crossing free, it "solved" the issue of the outer Canarsie and Culver/Norton's Point Lines by running trolleys on the same r-o-w.
At any rate, the trolleys apparently did not honor the old elevated stops, and stopped where hailed at the corners. Pick up would have been from the right side off the street, not from the former elevated station areas.
Right, Paul. The hi-level platforms for the rapid transit ops would have been much like the stops on today's LIRR Long Beach Branch (for example): trains run at street grade, with customers gaining access by walking up a few steps to the platform. However, with the old Canarsie Line this meant passengers had to cross the tracks to get to the platform because of their island configuration. Also, keep in mind that the Canarise RT Gate Cars were equipped with trolley poles because once the line ran on grade (south of New Lots Rd.), the power went from third rail to overhead wire down to the shore.
Of course going back to the steam era the stations were rural-oriented, i.e., there were no platforms, merely a wooden planking where the passenger car's stairwells would line up with them for boarding.
From my studies of arcing at 72nd Street, I've noticed that on each car, both contact shoes create a strong arc when losing contact with the 3rd rail.
I'm assuming now that both trucks on each subway car have motors. Does the contact shoe on each truck supply power only to the motor on that truck? And from which truck do the other systems draw power?
The four "current collectors" on each car feed EVERYTHING on that car. If you think back to what you saw, it was the LAST truck in contact with that rail going across the gap that actually arc'd ... a shoe coming in contact with a third rail can arc if it has a crappy contact, but a departing shoe across a gap has that "love hold" on the electrons that it's unwilling to give up until "separation anxiety" takes hold.
Go watch it again, you'll note it's the TRAILING truck's shoe that gives you that nice arcy-sparky ... until the air's resistance finally breaks the arc paths with distance from "last contact" ... moo.
Yo! THANKS for all those tapes - been *SO* busy the last year and change that I had NO time to take in the wonders you sent - until the last day or so! That "Third Avenue El" tape you sent was EXACTLY what I'd hoped for ... ***THANKS!!!*** along with "if stories could tell"
to round out the 20 minutes ... but you gave me that piece of history I lost when I lost my "pre-EIAJ" helical scan video player from the "Videofreex" days ... THAT was what I'd lost!!! THANK YOU!!!
And the foamy tape of Dougie and I hijacking that R143, and "being in the cab without paperwork" bit was a TRUE treasure as well ... sorry that my duties to earn my monthly nut kept me THIS long from sitting down and being able to take it all in. THANK YOU! :)
hey Kevin... You're right. I went back and watched the arcing current collectors, and it is the trailing truck that arcs wildly. I just froze a frame on one of the arcs, that has a rich red corona to it. The arc's colors are really spectacular and a lot safer to watch than a thermonuclear device.
red arcing
I'm glad you enjoyed the video of your visit last year (2001). I really liked the short film about the evening rush hour. It gave a nice feel of the transit workers back in the early 1950's.
Psychedelic!
Heh. Yeah, the reddish ones are "hotter" in that in addition to oxygen breaking down, there's also a flame element to the arc-over ... that's how trash gets lit up on the tracks and is why folks should be grateful to those who walk the tracks picking up trash.
And yes, that day in the life piece was QUITE interesting. A *really* wonderful collection you put together there ... wish it hadn't taken THIS long to find an hour or so to sit and veg out.
Interesting suggestion by Google:
"But officer, I'm not stalking these trains, I'm just standing here minding my business."
I am guilty of stalking redbirds, and if that is a crime, then I will soon be guilty of bribing a jury.
---Brian
If anyone is looking for a copy of Robert C. Reeds 1978 book "The New York Elevated" I just saw one available on ebay - opening bid $20.00
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7541&item=2903768281
If you got to www.railroad.net you will see a shot of Bob Vogel back in the day....looks suspiciously like a certain former R-9 operator. :)
I'm gonna burn a watermelon on your front lawn. :)
LOL! Would like to see you try.....cuz ya gotta first get past the snarling Dobermans, then a gator-filled moat, a mine field, and finally Iron Mike Tyson :)
We eat our dobermans with mustard and onions up here - no problem. Gator-filled moat? No problem there either, I'll bring a couple of lobbyists and give Bruno a day arf. Mine field? No problem there either, a truckload of bambis oughta get those cleared. Now Iron MIKE? THAT might be a problem. Lemme see if Marv Albert is available and I'll get back to ya on that. :)
"Iron Mike Tyson "
With or without his teeth?
:0)
I asked Brother Kev about that when I first saw his photo. We were separated at birth... by a few miles and a coupla years.
Having met Bob in Chicago in 2001, I can tell you that if Kevin looks anything like Bob, that's two mugs only a mother could love...on payday!
Thanks a lot, Dave. Nobody knows what Kevin looks like behind the facial hair. Doug's reference to me was with respect to a previous incarnation.
If you look at SteveB's SubTalk Day at Branford photos, you will see Kevin is his 2002 visage. Nothing like the old days. Even looks somewhat respectable. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
You're right, Dan. I'd forgotten how respectable Kevin looks now.
OK, found a vintage shot ... Unca Selkirk taking a Conrail SD-80MAC out for a "leg stretch" on the Chicago line ...
Rasputin getting a cab ride!
Rasputin needs no diesel, move train by willpower. Da. :)
Looks more like Jerry Garcia laid down his geetar for some fiddlin' on the railroad...:)
Nah, banjos are standard safety equipment on freights. :)
LOL!
Now THAT is a scary sight !
Yeah, I guess I should have worn an orange vest. :)
LOL, yea that would have helped a lot ... NOT
Guess I'll sign off now ... was having SubTalk Withdrawl pains, so I thought I would take a peek & see how things were going.
Yep same old, same old. Be talking to you guys in earnest in a few days.
Thurston! What are you doing up at this ungodly hour?! And how were you able to post? Did a certain daughter relinquish her PC rights to her dad? Remarkable!
(PS -- Happpy New Year)
Nope, just seeing if the AOL account that my OTHER daughter uses from school still works. Deleted a piece of mail I thought was junk ... opps.
Got a scanner for Christmas as a hand-me-down, i.e. the daughter of who you spoke got a printer/scanner from the boy friend, so I got her scanner, now I have to figure out to hook it up ... chains to the printer ... she could never make both work :-(
I COULD give you some pointers...but it'd cost ya....Ha!
I've had the fur for about twenty five years now, so even *I* don't know what I look like under there. And since I live upstate, it AIN'T coming off for thrillseekers, I need that to keep me WARM. :)
"Damned hippies ..." (line from "Silver Streak" to keep it somewhat topical)
OK, trivia question. (for Kevin only) What is the name of the actor that said that line?
Answer below in invisible ink:
Scatman Cruthers (spelling might be off)
Didn't peek, but that was da "scatman" ... broke out a bottle, waved it in the air as the train came to a stop and said, "HELLlllllO Chicago! (gotta drink to THAT)" Damn hippies. :)
Correct!!!
Dewd ... gotta leave a message ... have you been playing around in the evidence room again? =)
Is this like one of them "feds and heads" moments, missuh officah?
Q: What is the difference between a drunk and a stoner?
A:The drunk will drive through a stop sign, while the stoner will wait for it to turn green.
Moo. :)
Kev, you didn't get it. So I guess you didn't see my Scatman Crouthers answer underneath the original trivia question.
Hint: Drag your mouse while holding the left click where the message should be.
Damned FEDS and their lemon-scented inks. :)
Nope, didn't see that, didn't need to ... I know FEW railfans who would refuse ANOTHER viewing of "Silver Streak" ... given a choice between that and "Money Train", foamers prefer the scatman 6000 to 1. Even IF JLo is hot. Heh.
For those with an interest in industrial heritage (and industrial intraplant railways):
There is a new book "Copper on the Creek" about the former Phelps Dodge copper facility at Laurel Hill (Newtown Creek, Maspeth).
Its inexpensive, placeinhistory.org has info, follow the links to Newtown Creek.
HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL.
I have been to NYC only once (summer 2001) and from what I have seen and heard, the NYC subway cars seem very noisy and can be annoying to non subway fans not from DC. The screeching of the brakes and the ability to hear every crunch and bump in the rails are what I am most concerned about. The noise was so loud on the L train that when it took one of the tight hairpin turns, I could not hear my dad talking who was sitting about three seats to my left b/c of the screeching. Only in some sections of tunnels in the WMATA is it even close to being that loud. Is it merely the age of the MTA subway system that makes it so loud?
Stand on the platform at Potomac Avenue (either end, but the west end is better) and listen to the Bredas sing!
wayne
Older subway cars are not as well soundproofed as the newer ones. The R-40 or R-42 you rode in the summer of 2001 on the "L" is an older model.
Then again, most people on this board would not consider them noisy :)
--Mark
The more wheel noise there is, the more I like it. Down with ALL track sprayers and grease guns!
wayne
Quick, buy stock in hearing aid companies. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
No, use Gorman's Ear Guards.
GUARD YOUR EARS with Gorman's.
I prefer LEIGHTS myself.
Peace,
ANDEE
so when the deaf sub talkers meet how many of us will have had help from Garcia, Townshend, Kaukonen, as well as St Louis, ACF, BUDD, etc/
Ian Kilmister - also known to the world as LEMMY - he's GOT to be the most hardened warrior of all - he's now 61 years young, and he's STILL out there playing with the LOUDEST band of ALL TIME - MOTÖRHEAD.
wayne
Grease guns don't make people slip, people make people slip.
---Brian
www.railfanwindow.com
He's NOT talking about slipping. He's talking about track noise.
Peace,
ANDEE
I know, but I couldn't think of anything funny about grease and track noise. I'm sorry.
---Brian
Hey, he's gone deaf already :)
--Mark
I don't know about NYC per se, but, I do know that in DC, all the tracks are welded together so you don't get the "clickety-clack" as you're moving along....Wayne, you're not kidding about Potomac Avenue, I find the same to be true at U Street and the eastern end of Tenleytown and the western end of Van Ness....Also, at times (not always) you'll get a lot of screeching from both ends of Judiciary Sq.
Mark
I just assumed the newer systems used wider radii on their ROW's. Since NYC had to fit between existing buildings (i.e., the Broadway route, turning corners), the flanged wheels are always working themselves in friction contrary to the centerline of the track. Test: when you hear the screeching, check whether the next car is at an angle.
You missed the era of the Almond Joys in Philadelphia.
Of course, there's still nothing like the truly ear-shattering high-pitch roar of the Kawasaki Broad Street line cars rocketing past Fairmount station on the express track. Somehow the truing machine never gets it quite right...
All southbound "Q" service via the express Prospect Park to Kings Highway.
YAY! Now the R-68's can stretch their short legs.
---Brian
Service was restored shortly before 1238. Now you know why these things never make the transit/traffic reports.
But something was up during PM rush. Dekalb tried to hold us at Newkirk (someone ignored the lights) and on the PA as we arrived at Kings Hwy they told the Q Diamond to hold at kings hwy until Brighton called them. That there were over 4 trains ahead of this express (around 5:30pm).
With everything dispatched out of Brighton now, I would think they would allow Brighton control of the the holding lights south bound instead of Dekalb??
Just an idea.
Newkirk and Kings Highway are both controlled by Stillwell Master, not DeKalb. The station PA at Kings Highway is from Brighton Beach.
Alex, this broken rail....was it truly 'broken' as something that was seen visually, like a split railhead (from above) or was the damage something hinden from view (like a crack between the head and the base)?
Don't know - all we ever hear is "broken rail". From my POV, once the work gang is there, I don't care how it was broken, just so long as they fix/replace it.
Dang! What kinda motorperson doesn't catalog every nut, screw, bolt and lockwasher? And every car number? Heh. Buffs just can't believe that we DON'T CARE as long as we get our trips in somehow. :)
Fair 'nough...
Service was restored shortly before 1238. Now you know why these things never make the transit/traffic reports.
Not so fast, there.
Are you saying that, because the condition didn't last long, it couldn't be on the traffic/transit report? Don't forget that those reports come every 10 minutes on news stations. I am sure you have heard traffic tie-ups which announced on one report, and are left out of subsequent reports.
If this subway situation had happened during the morning or evening rush, even if it was of short duration, then it could have made one or two of those radio reports, if Shadow were even looking for such items, which they aren't.
I was listening to this wonderful clip from the old radio station 99X (WXLO) from 1978. (The station is at 98.7, and, since 1982 or so, has been WRKS/Kiss-FM.) Charlie Steiner (now of the Yankee radio booth) was the newscaster on Jay Thomas's morning program.
This is before the days of Shadow; presumably each station had its own sources. Steiner always led off the news segment with the "traffic and transit" report, and here is what he reported this day:
"Long Island Rail Road reporting the 7:11 from Far Rock, due into Penn Station at 8:03, eleven minutes behind schedule. Southbound West Side Highway bumper-to-bumper..."
Click here to hear the clip. Steiner's newscast begins at 7:30 into the clip.
Steiner led this report with the announcement of ONE LIRR train that was 11 minutes late! THEN he went on to list the traffic problems on the West Side Highway, at the Lincoln Tunnell, the GWB, the Harlem River Drive, and an accident on the Deegan.
So, yes, transit backups can come and go, sometimes within the space of a quarter-hour. But, that isn't really a reason to ignore them. As I mentioned, on news stations, the traffic reports come every 10 minutes. Remember that Steiner's newscast was once an HOUR, yet he mentioned the LIRR delay.
It seems to me that information of this sort should really be available on the radio today. Traffic/transit reports should have room for mention of items of transit which are of of the calibre of the item that Steiner reported, such as the problem at Beverley Road, or even Todd Glickman's example from a few weeks ago of the uptown IND trains skipping 42nd St.
Other examples would be:
downtown F trains running on the A line from W4th to Jay St.
all no. 7 trains running local
delays on the E and F lines; use the V instead (this is modelled on the frequent traffic report items advising commuters to use the Holland Tunnel rather than the Lincoln Tunnel, the Northern State rather than the LIE, etc.)
Ferdinand Cesarano
P.S. -- About the clip: It is from a site called New York Radio News, by Martin Hardee. According to the site, Hardee produced a documentary about radio news in New York for the University of Florida School of Journalism and Communications back in 1978. He has made some of the segments available on the web. Right now, there are sections for eight different stations on the site. (The site has a page with the WCBS segment, on which I would bet that Mr. Glickman can be heard. However, I must admit that I haven't listened to the WCBS clip yet.)
Are you saying that, because the condition didn't last long, it couldn't be on the traffic/transit report? Don't forget that those reports come every 10 minutes on news stations. I am sure you have heard traffic tie-ups which announced on one report, and are left out of subsequent reports.
If this subway situation had happened during the morning or evening rush, even if it was of short duration, then it could have made one or two of those radio reports, if Shadow were even looking for such items, which they aren't.
I'm sure someone could sit around Shadow with a scanner to find out problems on the subways, but then they couldn't mention it on air. I don't see Transit paying someone to call Shadow for every little problem, because for the most part, by the the time Shadow is alerted, the problem is solved.
This particular broken rail problem lasted for about two hours, but didn't have a great effect on service - you either went express and backtracked, or you waited at Prospect until the problem was resolved. Most people heading for those local stops don't have an alternate subway ride home. When I'm driving, it's nice to know that the Brooklyn Bridge is closed due to an accident - I can go through the Battery Tunnel and avoid the snarl.
I'm sure someone could sit around Shadow with a scanner to find out problems on the subways, but then they couldn't mention it on air. I don't see Transit paying someone to call Shadow for every little problem, because for the most part, by the the time Shadow is alerted, the problem is solved.
Shadow (or any other traffic service that may pop up in the future) should place a permanent staffer at MTA headquarters. Then they would know about things such as this as soon as the MTA itself knows. Information about the subways/railroads is essential, so MTA headquarters should be a regular "beat" for a traffic reporting service.
If this were actually done, then a subway delay that lasts two hours would have a good chance of being reported.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I can't walk into Control Center without a bleeping escort - and I work for them. There is no way that they will let someone (actually three someones - IRT, BMT and IND) who works for Shadow et al. in to a 'sensitive' location.
One problem. Shadow traffic main audience is people in thier cars driving places. Unless the TA installs underground radio transmitters, there is not enough of an auidence to warrent an employee dedicated to the MTA.
Its only what 2-3 Q local trains that were diverted, now if it was a substansial detour/delay then it would be televised.
Like the 2/5 signal problems in the Bx during the PM rush. I doubt it was televised.
Officials crossing signals on trains
Rensselaer-- State wants refurbished high-speed units to hit rails; Amtrak says they're not ready to roll
By CATHY WOODRUFF, Staff writer
First published: Thursday, January 2, 2003
Sleek, shiny and built for speed, the two reconditioned Turboliner trains sit idle outside Amtrak's local maintenance shop.
After laying out millions for Super Steel Schenectady to rebuild seven of the 1970s-era trains, State Transportation Commissioner Joseph Boardman is restless to get them moving on New York's Empire Corridor. The Turboliners are the centerpiece of a high-speed rail program announced by Gov. George Pataki in September 1998, and the trains were supposed to be in service by early 2001, shortening the trip between Rensselaer and New York City by about 20 minutes.
But Amtrak officials aren't ready to start running the trains and have no start time in sight. And with some $140 million in track improvements yet to begin, the turbos' higher speed capabilities are worth little. Until the tracks can handle the speed, the new trains will likely maintain the typical 2 hour, 25 minute trip time between Rensselaer and New York City for the foreseeable future.
The first of the trains was delivered to Amtrak for final testing in August and is considered ready for service by DOT. The state also considers the second train, delivered this month and undergoing final testing, nearly ready to go.
"They desperately need equipment, and this equipment is a lot better than what they have," Boardman fumed during an interview earlier this month.
Amtrak officials insist on more time for testing and crew training -- along with the parts, catalogs and manuals they say are necessary for their maintenance crews to keep the trains running.
"We're talking about a 30-year-old piece of equipment, where many of the parts were made from scratch and aren't available as standard parts in catalogs," said Dan Stessel, an Amtrak spokesman in Washington, D.C., who recently toured one of the new Turboliners in Rensselaer with a reporter and other staffers from Amtrak and state DOT.
"We need to have an inventory of critical parts on hand," Stessel said. " A, the parts are rare and come from a variety of sources and, B, we don't have the part numbers from Super Steel."
For now, DOT plans to keep the Turboliners rolling over to Rensselaer as soon as Super Steel finishes them at the company's Glenville plant under a $74.4 million contract. A third train is slated for delivery by early April, if not sooner.
"They'd better make room for them because they're going to keep coming," said DOT spokesman Peter Graves.
DOT plans to approve the fourth train for testing by late June, with three more to be ready by early 2004. That schedule, however, will be worth little unless Amtrak is satisfied enough to start using them to carry passengers.
The reconditioned Turboliners were designed to be high-performance additions to Amtrak's fleet along the Empire Corridor between New York City and Niagara Falls. With their compact turbine engines in locomotives at both ends, they were conceived as a unique diesel-fueled cousin to Amtrak's high-speed, electric Acela trains.
Amtrak's specialists say that during testing, the first train reached 144 mph, far faster than the 125 mph originally expected.
Even without the higher speed, the unusual configuration of the five-car "train sets" -- made up of a locomotive/power car with passenger seating at each end, two full-size passenger cars and a cafe car in the middle -- could shorten turnaround times in some cases. The dual-locomotive design allows the engineer and crew to simply move to the other end of the train, rather than turning it around.
But the trains' five-car "fixed consist" also will make it difficult for Amtrak to add cars. The Turboliners will seat approximately 260 passengers, but during busy times, such as the Thanksgiving holiday, "it's not uncommon to have 350 passengers" on trains between Rensselaer and New York City, said Amtrak's district superintendent for the region, Phillip Larson.
Inside, the refurbished passenger cars are much like the newest Metroliner cars Amtrak already uses for about half of its upstate New York runs. Interiors are more plush than on older trains, with more leg room, electrical plugs for laptop computers, and lighted message boards that can display information about upcoming stops.
The main changes are mechanical. The new turbine engines are smaller, more powerful and more fuel-efficient than those they replaced. An alternate power system also allows the trains to run on third-rail electrical power in the New York City tunnel system.
Because of the engine's compact, portable design, Jim Shelgren, general foreman of Amtrak's Rensselaer maintenance facility, said, "if the engine blows up, you can replace it in a few hours." On other trains, repair jobs can take a locomotive out of commission for several days or more, he said.
But Amtrak officials and technicians say the very complexity and uniqueness of the new trains make them cautious about adding them to the regular fleet too soon.
"A lot of the technology is going to be new to us," said Shelgren. "We don't know how it's going to hold up."
One Amtrak machinist, who asked not to be identified, said detailed mechanical blueprints and manuals are all-the-more essential in unfamiliar equipment. "Otherwise, we don't know how to troubleshoot," he said.
Amtrak's Stessel declined to predict just when the trains will start carrying passengers.
"New York state wants these trains; they will have these trains," Stessel said, "but as the operator, we need to make sure we have the parts, the manuals and the training we need to operate these trains safely, reliably and efficiently."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the article! Having never ridden a Turboliner, I am following this story with interest so I can hopefully ride them (and photograph them) sometime in the future.
---Brian
www.railfanwindow.com
There's one of the ORIGINALS running the Hudson line and it's a pretty good train. Alas, the new ones are not like the old ones and therein lies the rub ...
>>>Boardman fumed during an interview earlier this month. <<<
And I am guessing that BOARdman is one on Brunos lackeys. I cannot wait for Kevins comment on this.
Peace.
ANDEE
Heh. Boardman IS indeed ... wherever there's mayhem and major financial bloodletting of YOUR tax money, count on Bruno to be there. :)
Just another day in Rennselaer county though. Silly me, I always thought republicans were "RESPONSIBLE." Heh.
And if Amtrak ever gets off their ass and fixes the track like they were supposed to years ago, what will their excuse be then??? Wrong color? Doesn't go 'Choo Choo'.
This is starting to get pathetic. NY state should just buy up the ROW and run the damm service themselvs and kick Amtrak off the hudson line, entirely.
And if Amtrak ever gets off their ass and fixes the track...
Except that Amtrak doesn't own the track, MTA and CSX do.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
MTA is out of THAT pie, it's strictly our new Treasury Secretary, John SNOW who owns those tracks, and BRUNO was supposed to pay for it. He GOT his train station, now the high-speed trains can go straight to hell, it's AMTRAk, NOT BRUNO TRAILERLINES ... Until Amtrak changes their name to Brunolines, then not a PENNY for tracks.
Bottom line, those Turbo trains are ALREADY planned to run between Rensselaer and Saratoga between the two Job Bruno train stations. The financial charges went to NYC, but the TRAINS will run in Rennselaer. Once again, screw YOU NYC folks, it's BRUNO'S trains ... and Paturkey won't go up against the Bruno because he has no ball bearings ...
Budget contains ZERO for tracks, ZERO for turbo trains, and NYS is going to stiff Amtrak on the subsidy. Once Amtrak's gonads are back in the vise, look to ALL Amtrak service ending between NYC and "upstate" ... but those nifty new trains WILL run to Joe Bruno STADIUM ... for all 12 passengers wanting to go there ...
This TOO is a BRUNO project, and like the two rail stations Bruno built, nobody bothered to talk to Amtrak about THIS EITHER. Throw the money, get the camera time for "creating local jobs" and walk away to the next glad-handing photo op without any regard to what happens. Amtrak isn't asking for anything out of line - once these trains are turned over, they become Amtrak's problem ... it would be nice to have parts, part numbers and drawings. Any "car equipment shop" would expect THAT much ...
Shows you the level of stupidity you people keep electing though. :(
Thanks for the article! Having never ridden a Turboliner, I am following this story with interest so I can hopefully ride them (and photograph them) sometime in the future.
---Brian
www.railfanwindow.com
There's one of the ORIGINALS running the Hudson line and it's a pretty good train. Alas, the new ones are not like the old ones and therein lies the rub ...
I rode thru the Lindburgh station on my way to the peach drop the other nite and noticed that there is alot of construction going on on the northbound side of the station. It looks like they are adding a platform to the outside of the northbound tracks in addition to the existing center platform. What are they doing there? What will the final configuration be? Rob?
I don't know about the consturction, but I'm interested in this peach drop. Is this like the crystal ball drop in Times Square? In Wilkes Barre, PA, they drop a diamond. Luckily, Scranton, PA hasn't copycatted anything like this yet.
---Brian
The peach drop is held in downtown Atlanta and is like the ball drop in Times Square. Little Richard performed, shutup!, and they had some other local bands too. The peach looks like it is made of styrofoam or wood, sits atop a 50 or so foot pole, and drops just before midnite.
It doesn't compare to Times Square though, I did that in 2001. No one can put on a show like the big apple!
And no, the peach drop is not like the David Letterman watermelon drop. That would be cool though.
And Raleigh, North Carolina has the giant acorn... since they are the City of Oaks (although many of us think it's really because the Legislature, the Governor, and the Council of State are all a little squirrely...).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I lived in Atlanta many years ago, but never remembered any New Year's "Peach drops" when I was in High School.
Hello all
The construction is part of the Lindbergh "T.O.D" or Transit Oriented Development. Bellsouth (the local RBOC)is building two office towers on top of what used to be the station parking lot, and there is a main street between the two with ground level retail which feeds into the station. Residential is planned for the other (west) side of the station. The station is undergoing major modifications as part of this project. What is interesting is that this is the first time since the North Line opened in the 5-points station that a station has been under contruction on MARTA while it is still in service. Get your pictures while you can!
-Paul "Atlanta Transit" Grether
A rail buff's dream...
Hey everyone, I'm back from 30 degrees C Sao Paulo and in 30 degrees F A-town. Damn, how easy it is to forget about cold weather :-) Full report from me within a week.
In addition to what Paul said, the main purpose of the station work is to increase capacity to the station for the expected increase in ridership once all the TOD is completed. The northbound tack is getting a new side platform, the mezzanine is being expanded and a commuter parking deck is completed. The mezzanine expansion means that half the station is going underground, while the south half stay in an open cut. So now, the station layout will be one island platform and one side platform. The northbound trains will open doors on both sides, while the southbound trains will continue with what they already do.
I forgot to add, I took many photos of the construction back in the spring/summer, it's been many months since I've been on that part of on MARTA, so I don't know how far they are with the work.
Well, it ain't a Triplex, but that R32 is brand new. How different is this scene today?
I know this picture was taken from the Coney Island bound platform of 86th Street, Brooklyn. Look out California, they are going to have an earthquake now when Fred sees this pic.
Great pic Paul, You made my day. I only wish it was a more close up of a picture. But not bad at all.
I was restless this morning and took the PATH train to Newark for the first time in a couple of months.
I was surprised to find that the NJT Shoppe will be closing at the end of the month and is selling everything at 50% off. Everything.
Oddly enough, I had been musing on getting a PCC powered car. I bought 2 cars one with sound and the other without. I actually wanted 2 without sound, but they only had 1 without sound left. They still had at least a dozen with sound in stock.
Also a surprise was finding the NJT bus banks at a really good price. I bought a couple of MC9's for $5 a piece.
Someone had bought up a load of books this morning, so there was not a lot left.
Oddly, today was the first day of the sale, and I just stumbled onto it.
You're so lucky. Where in Newark is this store?
---Brian
Newark Penn Station. Access is via Track #5.
That's neat. I haven't been to Penn Sta Newark in a while. I guess the store wasn't there then.
--Brian
Brian,
The store is in a lousy location. If you didn't know where it is you would miss it. The just stuck it in.
It is on the mezzanine between escalators from PATH platform H (Inbound). If you are over by the entrance the Newark City Subway you might see the sign indicating to take an escalator up one level.
Maybe they are going to move to a better location? Like Penn Station New York? I'd love to buy the full-size NJ Transit system map. Do they have those for sale?
---Brian
The few times I was able to stop in I didn't see any.
Yes, and their hours are just PATHETIC! 8 to 4 Mon-Fri AND NOT even open on the weekend. Saturdays and Sundays are prime times when families could have gotten over there...certainly the store would've made money....just dumb planning.
I was there, too, completely by coincidence, and I picked up a couple of Corgi PCCs since the opportunity presented itself. About what time were you there?
-Robert King
Robert... I stumbled into the place about 10 AM. I didn't know about the sale either and I am quite happy with what I bought. I'm glad you found it also.
I got a cell phone report about a 1/2 hour ago from Mark W. and Mike P. from the Newark Penn Station....they reported that the NJT store is SWAMPED with customers (no doubt thanks to the reporting here at SubTalk of the store's demise).
Now's the chance to get those MTH and Kay Line models at seriously reduced prices! Good Hunting eveyone!
PS: Be aware that the store's NEW hours for the duration will be: 11:30 a.m. to 4 p.m. (NOT 8 a.m.)
"(no doubt thanks to the reporting here at SubTalk of the store's demise). "
Of course Doug. This is "The Source".
Paul -- as in heypaul -- called me this morning to inform me that the New Jersey Transit's gift shoppe is apparently due to close at the end of the month...everything is 50% off!
What did they expect? It was in a lousy location and the hours were horrible.
NJT should have taken an example from the TM Gift Shop in GCT. The location is very good and the hours are long enough to cover the AM and PM rush.
Did any of you see the crowds in the store last week? True a lot of it was to see the model trains but the line at the counter and the amount of people looking and choosing the merchandise was unbelievable.
But they raised the prices on the posters and wall maps. :( And they finally got those whale posters back in stock (from the R-142's) but they want $13 for them!!!!!! I'd rather just steal one off an R-142 than pay that kind of money :) So I put it back on the shelf, grabbed a few Multilingual September 2002's, and left.
---Brian
Brian, I just noticed you changed your handle....so do railfans come up to you and stare at you? (now that you're 'Railfan Window').
Watch out -- with that handle, Salaam is likely to set up a camera and tripod in front of you! LOL! :)
We were at NYTM store in Grand Central on Dec.21 - it was MOBBED. The line had to be 20 people long. And what was the big seller? BEARS! Yep, the beanie bears. They had completely sold out of L Bears (we found a couple in the bin), and V Bears were also gone - I got four of them, an A, L, Q and #5. It was blissful mayhem.
wayne
If the shop closes, will I still be able to purchase stuff on-line or will that be eliminated too?
Not sure....but I would think that they would still sell their exclusively NJT items either via the web or phone orders.
Not sure....but I would think that they would still sell their exclusively NJT items either via the web or phone orders.
Too late. All references to the shop have been deleted from their web site.
An extraordinarily petty move on the part of NJT, when MTA and SEPTA can afford them, and they have financial problems too.
The MTA put a stipulation on the TM Stores - they had to become self sustainting to a certain degree. I think that the stores exceeeded the expectations.
WHERE is IT?
and.. Do they sell numberplates, too?
did he have a sock in his mouth too ?
lol
When is the scheduled reopening date of the Transit Museum in Brooklyn?
What is supposed to be new and different?
The planned RE-opening of the Transit Museum was scheduled for April of this year, but I have heard that there might be a delay in that target date.
[What is supposed to be new and different?]
Air conditioning and heating installations. Also, some new or rearranged exhibits, particularly the bus section (rear of the mezzanine) and the platform level.
BTW, this has GOT TO BE the most asked question at SubTalk. If someone asks it again, I think I just might go CRAZY!!!!
When will the TM be opening again?
My fault.
LOL! Thanks for the link, Chris....
The ADA access will be improved from what it was.
im not sure myself, but i was a volunteer tour guide at the museum, so when they call me telling me its open, i will be sure to let you guys know
In all the discussion of how to serve JFK, we've gone over why it's expensive to tunnel down the Van Wyck to JFK, why the A train shouldn't be split endlessly, why the Rockaway Line would be trouble, etc. etc.
It did occur to me that there is a line which is not yet split, which could tolerate a split without significant reduction of service, and which could also serve JFK.
Why not the J train? Split the service - one branch goes to Jamaica Center, the other to JFK. Could the J-Airport split off onto Sutter Blvd (or subway under Sutter), then follow Rockaway Blvd?
This would also have the effect of supplying quicker subway access to the airport from lower Manhattan, and of course could result in new subway stations in various neighborhoods which need new subway service.
It won't happen, I know, but it'sjust a thought...
Do we want 8 car trains going to the airport though? And then would the J train to Jamaica end up making all stops rather than being a skip-stop? You can't fit the J/M/Z and then this airport train into 30TPH over the Willy B. I know this is just a thought, but these are some more reasons why it can't happen.
Nothing wrong with 8-car trains in the airport. Instead of having a short station at each terminal, have half as many long stations. Build passageways at each station to the two adjacent terminals.
"You can't fit the J/M/Z and then this airport train into 30TPH over the Willy B."
You mention an important consideration.
I neglected to memntion that there is already a "branching" of the J - it's called the M train.
An interesting idea, but the J makes a lot of stops en route to Manhattan, and it only serves a small slice of Manhattan once it gets there. What's appealing about the A is that it has a nice express run in Brooklyn but it runs the entire length of Manhattan (give or take a mile) and has transfers to every other line in the system except the 6.
Also, unless combined service is doubled, Jamaica line service to Jamaica Center would be reduced and the TA would have to give up trying to divert E passengers to the J/Z.
But I'm glad you haven't ruled out the option of running a subway line directly to JFK.
But you'd return J/Z to ideal local/express sharing, like the 4/6 are now: J is local only into Woodhaven, then it goes express and Z picks up local further in (and, in my opinion, takes the Chrystie connector into midtown instead of that downtown nonsense, but that's a story for another time). Not that the Willy B and three track give you much capacity even with the J passing up Z locals, but it beats skip-stop.
Of course, there's always Elias's previous suggestion of having the A/C and J/Z switch tracks at E.NY so that our new high-volume JFK turnoff, plus Jamaica traffic, is all going through the Fulton tunnel instead of over the Willy B.
"An interesting idea, but the J makes a lot of stops en route to Manhattan, and it only serves a small slice of Manhattan once it gets there. What's appealing about the A is that it has a nice express run in Brooklyn but it runs the entire length of Manhattan (give or take a mile) and has transfers to every other line in the system except the 6."
Yes, true. The J would cater to lower Manhattanites primarily, and folks in Brooklyn.
An analogous idea would have been extending PATH to EWR and offering express or skip-stop service from WTC (before it was bombed). That would (from New York's point of view) have been basically a Wall Street-financial center airport line.
Of course, 33rd Street and NJ customers would also benefit , and PATH is studying such an extension. I hope it happens.
Any idea to extend service to the airports also should take another factor into account. Airport traffic is down, way down, from pre-9/11 levels, and the extent and timing of any recovery remains an open question. Many travelers, both business and leisure, have switched to driving for shorter trips, shorter in this context meaning anything up to several hundred miles, and in many cases are in no particular hurry to switch back to flying because they've found that driving suits them just fine. Similarly, a number of businesses have switched to videoconferencing as an alternative to flying and find it more than suitable. My point is that because air travel is likely to remain depressed for many years, spending scarce resources on transit extension to airports may be inadvisable.
If the Airlines were to focus once again on why they were in business, that is to SELL SEATS AT A REASONABLE FARE, they'd be OK. JetBlue is doing a booming business. They're stuffing 'em in six abreast on their Airbuses because they are giving their customers what they WANT. I flew JetBlue to Tampa recently for $160 round trip. Try THAT on Delta or AA! Plus, Blue was ON TIME both ways and both planes were FULL in the middle of the week.
If the airlines want to increase ridership they must do what the MTA (and JetBlue) did: Offer fare-based incentives and more service. Then transit to the airport will serve a flying public beyond its most wildly optimistic projections. In other words, transit to the airport depends on what the airport's tenants are willing to do to make it work.
There are several different issues in this group of posts.
(1) Will air traffic recover soon? I think it will, for the reasons JayZeeBMT mentions - the low-cost airlines are doing well. And that means a new breed of less affluent air travellers, the very kind that might use transit to airports.
(2) Should rail links to airports be constructed? Well, marginally justifiable ones might get put on hold. Decent access routes to NYC's airports are not marginal, they are essential. It is absurd that among the world's major metropolises, NYC has the poorest access to its airports. (Well, o.k., Moscow. But Russians are so poor these days that presumably relatively few of them can afford to fly anywhere.)
(3) But the AirTrain is nearly finished. The tragic accident will delay its opening, but it will open. Many subtalkers don't like it. Myself, I take the view that half a loaf is better than no bread. If it's open next time I come to NYC, I'll use it.
(4) So the question is, do we need *another* rail access to JFK? Answer - at the moment, probably not. Let's wait and see how well the AirTrain does. I believe the Jamaica end will be more useful then the Howard Beach end, because the subway service at Howard Beach is too sparse. Jamaica is a proper transit hub, and Howard Beach isn't.
(5) The Newark monorail is also already there. But the NJT train services from the airport station to NYC are not really frequent enough for an airport service. So a PATH extension to the airport would be a really good thing, bringing a frequent airport-Manhattan service. Like Ron in Bayside, I hope it happens.
(6) Clearly, the crying need is for rail access to La Guardia. Maybe subtalkers should stop moaning about the AitTrain and dreaming about the old LIRR ROW, and start effective campaigning for subway access to LGA!
Yes. But... And LGA connection should not be a SUBWAY connection, but rather an LIRR or possibly PA operation.
The ROW should use the Hell Gate approach, and then follow the GCP ROW to the Airport. Only about two miles of track need be built that way, all of it over existing high-traffic ROW (the non-NIMBY route!)
Access then is to NYP and GCT (via eas) possibly to WTC via my NJT-LIRR plan. *THAT* would give LAG direct access to EWR, while an extension of the Air-Train from Jamaica to LGA via Van Wyck completes the picture.
Besides, If I am elected mayor, I'll close the airports to Albany-Boston-Washington flights. Let 'local' passengers take the train!
Elias
"1) Will air traffic recover soon? I think it will, for the reasons JayZeeBMT mentions - the low-cost airlines are doing well. And that means a new breed of less affluent air travellers, the very kind that might use transit to airports. "
I hadn't even considered that aspect - you are very sharp!
"4) So the question is, do we need *another* rail access to JFK? Answer - at the moment, probably not. Let's wait and see how well the AirTrain does. I believe the Jamaica end will be more useful then the Howard Beach end, because the subway service at Howard Beach is too sparse. Jamaica is a proper transit hub, and Howard Beach isn't."
If true, Howard Beach was easy enough to connect.
"(6) Clearly, the crying need is for rail access to La Guardia. Maybe subtalkers should stop moaning about the AitTrain and dreaming about the old LIRR ROW, and start effective campaigning for subway access to LGA!"
Yes, indeed.
Look, we know some (a few) railbuffs are just that - they long for an obsess about issues like getting rid of modern subway cars and preserving the Budd Brightliners; they don't care about ADA compliance; I'll bet at least one would bring steam engines back onto the subway if he could.
On Subtalk, that's OK...
(1) Will air traffic recover soon?
Yes... they all rode Eurostar once, realised that Waterloo International is a ghastly station, got stuck behind a Connex South Eastern train and vowed next time to fly to Europe!
Seriously I don't know what the problem is with Eurostar and all it's airline style check-in and security balls. It's so much easier riding a train from Italy to Switzerland - you walk onto the platform, the train turns up (usually late), you get on it, it departs, slowly, they check your passports on board, and you arrive in Switzerland - simple. And Switzerland isn't even in the EU! I'd be much happier with Eurostar on a normal platform of Waterloo station (or even better, Victoria station).
(2) Should rail links to airports be constructed?
Definitely! I can't wait to ride the DLR to City Airport!
It is absurd that among the world's major metropolises, NYC has the poorest access to its airports.
I thought the bus from Leicester to East Midlands Airport would beat even Moscow for being poor! Okay... I suppose calling Leicester a metropolis is stretching the definition, but if you include Oadby, Wigston and Blaby and a few other places like that you might just squeeze 400,000 people... It can only get better when East Midlands Parkway station opens on the Midland main line!
On the subject of Leicester a VAL type metro like they have in Lille, Rennes and Toulouse would be a good idea! I think I'll draw up some sort of fantasy system...
(6) Clearly, the crying need is for rail access to La Guardia. Maybe subtalkers should stop moaning about the AitTrain and dreaming about the old LIRR ROW, and start effective campaigning for subway access to LGA!
Hmmm... or a pier could be added to LGA and they could have a ferry to Manhattan!
"Hmmm... or a pier could be added to LGA and they could have a ferry to Manhattan!"
The delta Shuttle has a pier and used to have ferry service. I believe it failed for lack of business. The midtown arrival point was on E 34th St., which has miserable access by public transportation (a very slow bus).
The rest of the airport terminal areas are not within walking distance of the water, even if you built pedestrian underpasses under the runways. You'd need an airport tram to the ferry. And while you're doing that, why not .....
The midtown arrival point was on E 34th St., which has miserable access by public transportation (a very slow bus).
Which idiot tore down the 34th St shuttle? (Was he in any way related to E_DOG?)
It had become fairly useless by the time direct service to Penn Station became available.
The Delta Water Shuttle is alive and kicking. It goes from Wall/Water Sts., E.34th Street, E. 60 St., Manhattan, to LGA's Marine Term. However it is subject to weather and sea states, so we still need subway access to LGA.
"However it is subject to weather and sea states,"
That's a good thing. With a god gale-force trip on the ferry, the passengers will be prepared and laugh off the "light chop" Delta Airlines' pilot tells them about apologetically.
Do you know what Delta stands for?
Doesn't Even Leave The Airport. Termninal located just down the road from (US)eless Airways.
Yes, we must consider that.
"My point is that because air travel is likely to remain depressed for many years, spending scarce resources on transit extension to airports may be inadvisable."
OK. Fortunately, AirTrain provided for airport transit without spending general tax money. Any further investments, other than doing the reconstruction of Howard Beach and Jamaica (already funded, contracted, and underway), should be carefully examined and perhaps not done. The abandoned Rockaway Line is, currently, at the head of the list of projects which should not even divert study funds for the foreseeable future.
I don't know quite how Sutter Avenue comes into this all... I presume you meant that the Airport Train continue straight on on Fulton St then along Rockaway Blvd rather than using the S-curve onto Jamaica Avenue.
There probably would be enough capacity for this if one didn't want more than 10tph. Even better you could get 18tph by taking the M train off the Broadway El somehow - anyone fancy the Myrtle El being rebuilt?
Well, 10tph is one every six minutes. That's not horrible.
Would it be pheasable to split the E off onto Jamaica Van Wyck, then into the parking center where a JFK shuttle can meet?
Think about it the E serves alot of NYC attractions and places where high volume passengers can board
Port Authority Bus terminal
Penn Station(Its not a long walk from the Path and the Empire State building)
Downtown
Midtown(Citibank plaza)
Queensboro Plaza
And let's not forget, the E has those track extensions south-east of its Parsons-Archer terminal, I'm pretty sure for an extension southward.
Yes - originally intended to ascend LIRR trackage to Rosedale.
The FRA forbids that now.
So if the FRA forbids that, they would have to build a new subway tunnel for the E, which would add more cost?
Unfortunately, yes. Creating a new elevated line wold never survive politically, and enlarging the LIRR elevated to add an isolated subway ROW would suffer the same fate, I'm afraid.
I thought the plan was to REPLACE the LIRR, in that case the FRA would not be a problem. Why can't all LIRR trains run through St. Albans?
>>I thought the plan was to REPLACE the LIRR, in that case the FRA would not be a problem. Why can't all LIRR trains run through St. Albans? <<
They can. The LIRR refuses to give up the Rosedale trackage because it fears losing the operational flexibility of having 2 ROWs. This is a case where MTA's management should overrule the LIRR.
I don't see why not but it the extension isn't really made for airport service, its supposed to go to SE Queens. It does have high volume and it cold run nonstop to JFK Airport and would provide more service than the A, therefore creating a alternative for Manhattan passengers rather than going through Brooklyn on the A.
In theory, you could bring the E above-ground at Jamaica Ave.and connect it to the elevated AirTrain ROW down the Van Wyck into the airport. Is that what you mean? The AirTrain system is supposed to be compatible with "B" Div. rolling stock.
That's possible to do, theoretically, as long as the voltage supply, third rail, ROW turning radii and clearances are compatible. I'll leave aside the legal stuff and the politics for now...
Well, I guess there *is* a reason why that idea is "outside of the box", and that is probably the best place to keep it.
As much as I love the (J) line (for rail-fanning) it seems to me to be an endlessly long line on a particularlly useless route. Now if it were a four track line, straightened out a bit, and run like a *real* subway, then maybe the neighborhoods it serves would have evlolved differently, and it would be a meaningful route again.
Which is another way of saying, if you need that much subway out there, you will need to build a whole new system from the ground up.
Hey, did I ever tell you about my Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway?
Elias
I never understood why *JAY ZEE* takes that 90 degree turn at Elderts Lane instead of the more obvious route straight down Jamaica Avenue to ENY. I always thought a station called "Force Tube Avenue" would have been too cool!
The original Brooklyn Elevated Railway ran along Fulton Street and turned north onto Crescent Street and then ENDED with a Cypress Hills station over Crescent Street.
Fulton Street made more sense than Jamaica Avenue because Jamaica avenue has a park and cemeteries on one side. The eastward extension, which also involved tearing down the old Cypress Hills station was built in 1918.
Fulton Street made more sense than Jamaica Avenue because Jamaica avenue has a park and cemeteries on one side.
waddayou mean, the dead can't ride the subway!? They VOTE, don't they?
: ) Sheesh
Yeah, but talk about leaning on the doors!
The J/Z takes the 90 degree turn AT Cypress Hills, not Elderts lane & it really slows things down alright. I'm not sure the el would be wide enough for 2 tracks w/stations if it were via Jamaica Av from Crescent St to Bway Junction. I'm hoping they upgrade the Jamaica el one day to make it faster at the slow points & building the flyover middle express track.
However, Jamaica Ave. from Crescent to BJ (hee hee hee, see the post about vendors in the subway) is 60 feet wide curb to curb, according to NYCDOT. This should be plenty of room, as the 3-track segment of el over Crescent St. is over a 60' street as well.
My think on this is to break the current (J) train before it turns north into the Cressent Street Curve, and continue it north to Rockaway Blvd, and supply it with a proper terminal. Change the name of this train to the (JJ), and it runs Local all the way to Broad Street (or whatever).
Build an new track directly on Jamaica Avenue as it leaves the Broadway Junction Yard, and it connects to the orphaned east end of the line. It is called the (J) train, and it is an express in the rush direction at all times.
I do think that that is the best you can do with this line. It should be enough.
Elias
And in these days, building new els isn't desired. On the Crescent curve, it barely fits 3 tracks. It would be the same way if it were via Jamaica in that section; then you have to install stations too, which could fit but would be about the same as on Fulton[except with the extra track not as a flyover if this is your layout].
I would extend the E over the J/Z to JFK. Its more sensible since the E was designed to go to SE Queens in the first place so why not bring the E. Using the old LIRR ROW from QB would still be the best service for a new KFK subway line but building the AirTrain severely limits that possibility so the E proposal could be a backup.
>>>Boardman fumed during an interview earlier this month. <<<
And I am guessing that BOARdman is one on Brunos lackeys. I cannot wait for Kevins comment on this.
Peace.
ANDEE
Heh. Boardman IS indeed ... wherever there's mayhem and major financial bloodletting of YOUR tax money, count on Bruno to be there. :)
Just another day in Rennselaer county though. Silly me, I always thought republicans were "RESPONSIBLE." Heh.
I'm back home in utah and I had fun , I got to ride the redbrid for the last time the next time I be back to N.Y. is in July and by then they sould be retired . Happy New Year.
Traxdt, Light rail operater
Can you please give us any firsthand information on UTA TRAX expansion? What proposed lines are next for construction? TRAX is one of my favorite systems. I love the mountain views from the southern portions of the line. I just can't wait until there's an airport line so I can ride it more easily during my occasional long layovers in Salt Lake City.
Mark
The mediacal ex. is about 60%done and our 7 newcars sieman is due in aug. the next ex. is to west valley city. in late 2003
Will the West Valley City extension serve the airport?
Mark
no
Is a line to SLC airport in the works anytime within the next decade?
Mark
Now as I see it, every time we try to take a railfan trip (or ride a train for that matter) when it is raining from the start brings curses, ever since that "rainy day long ago" scenario with a still, AMTRAK train at Metropark and the unknown diesels passing us northward.
My mom and I decided to take a railfan trip to travel throughout the Subway. We came to take the 12:09p express to New York from Metuchen. Passengers who already were waiting at the platform heard the manual announcement (female) that all westbound trains were operating up to 30 minutes late. A train arrives s/b 15 minutes late on Track 4 and continues south.
Another announcement we heard was that the next westbound train would arrive at the lower-level platform.
Concerned about our train, (they kept announcing westbound, not eastbound, it was already 12:30p) Meanwhile, two AMTRAK trains pass by southbound, including an Acela Express. A whole heap later, another NJT westbound comes in at Track 3 for the low platform.
They announced the lateness of the westbound trains at least once more and the passengers were tired of waiting. It is almost 12:46p, which was the next scheduled, eastbound local. At 12:47p, our train comes, going at the normal rate until the restriction of the Elizabeth "S" curves. (NJT personnel STILL collected our tickets despite the big delay)
The engineer blows his horn numerous times while going at a steady 30-35mph or so. Lo, and behold, we saw the cause of our problem. An NJT train going southbound inadvertently "clipped" the trolley wire. IIRC, it happened very close to when locals westbound switch over to Track 6 from Track 4 because now there are six tracks for Linden and Rahway. The trolley wire that was cut was making a big hangover loop toward the top of the train, as a few, orange-vested workers stood still for us to pass. (The auxiliary and messenger wires were intact)
The poor train had all of its pantographs lowered to the very bottom, except for the supposedly last car. It was kind of spooky to see a train unlit (LCD's, lights out) during operation. (The train was stopped near the switch)
A pair of connected GP40PH2's came to rescue the train with its bells ringing (#'s 4300 and 4146) down Track 4. Our train stopped at Elizabeth, then continued normally to New York.
Questions:
1) When there are announcements of big delays, why isn't the cause of the problem stated?
2) Why does NJT inadvertently cancel its train(s) without notifying the public? (Our 12:09p express was canceled and the local came on time, still had tickets collected) NJT must assume some responsibilities for the troubles IT has caused.
3) What causes only the trolley wire of a catenary to clip and thus, lose power to the train? Did the train do it? If so, how?
4) If there is a rescue locomotive(s), where does the rescued trainset go to?
5) If a train lost power in this position, where would the passengers be rerouted? Or would they stay on the train and be moved with the rescue locomotive?
6) How is the catenary on the NEC (or any line) rigged up? It seems that if one catenary is taken out, the rest of the catenary (no matter how many tracks) are also shut down. (So as to refer to the CONRAIL incident on the NEC a long February ago)
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Not an answer, but by comparison, delays on the Metro-North New Haven Branch (the other catenary) are always announced by computer, along with the reason and number of minutes, as are cancellations. Reasons are "congestion," "a previous incident," "mechanical failure," and others. Catenary failures seem to happen due to branches or other outside "intruders" which are then tangled in a pantograph.
Dunno why NJT doesn't automate the announcements.
like the sleek look of the bi-levels on the LIRR in service today. I saw it for the first time during the night not too far from Sunnyside Yard on LIRR trackage heading toward the city.
There is a red, LED message on top of the end doors which I haven't been able to decipher from the road at which I was looking at the train. The lights are sharp and bright, and the fine steel gleamed over the mercury-vapor street lamp on the street.
1) Can anyone tell me which lines the LIRR operates its bi-levels on? (All of them have engines on both ends like Acela Express)
2) What is the red message on top of the end doors?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
They operate on the non-electrified portions of the line providing direct one seat service into Penn Station.
I believe the red message is the ending destination of the train so people get on the correct train at connecting stattions such as Jamaica.
1) Can anyone tell me which lines the LIRR operates its bi-levels on? (All of them have engines on both ends like Acela Express)
No, there are bilevels with cabs so they only need one locomotive and operate in push-pull mode.
---Brian
Right, they only need one engine on the Jamaica, LIC, or HuntersPoint Ave runs. But they do need two engines on the Penn Station Runs, if the engines switch from diesel to electric.
At this time I don't think too many runs go to Penn Station. I think it's only one or two round trips on each of the diesel Branches, Montauk, Oyster Bay, Port Jefferson. They never run dual modes on the Ronkonkoma to Greenport runs.
Most of the bilevels are not run with dual mode engines. They look the same, except of cource they have third rail shoes if they are dual modes. An easy way to tell if it's a dual mode engine or a regular one is that the regular ones are in the 400 number series and the dual modes are in the 500's.
The bi-level C-3 coaches are operated on all non-electrified lines. These are The Oyster Bay, Port Jeff, Montauk and Greenpoint. The trains w/ engines on both ends are the Dual Mode trains that can operate into penn station. The other trains are traditional push-pull with a C-3 cab car on one end and they are typically abour 3-4 cars long, forcing ppl to change in Babylon, Jamacia, Ronkonkoma etc.
Why do the trains with dual modes need engines at both ends while the diesel powered ones operate with only one engine?
It has something to do with a gap in the third rail contact going over grade crossings, swithces, etc.
Amtrak dosen't want a train to gap out in Penn Station and cause the proverbial traffic jam from hell. It is totally unnecessary as the trains are DUAL MODE and if one gaps out it can just rev up the diesel and gap back in.
It is totally unnecessary as the trains are DUAL MODE and if one gaps out it can just rev up the diesel and gap back in.
Well, you don't "rev" up a diesel in the tunnel, and they don't rev up instantly either. But the cars *are* MU'd anyway, so you might as well put some shoes on them, that way the train does not gap out and one locomotive can manage just fine thank you.
Sheesh... do I gotta do *all* of thier thinking for them ;-)
Elias
I don't think the cars are MU'ed. If they were you wouldn't need a locomotive.
I don't think the cars are MU'ed. If they were you wouldn't need a locomotive.
The cars can be MUd without having traction motors. After all, that *is* how control commands are transmited to the locomotives from the cab car, albeit they do not need to transport 750vdc from car to car. Deal is the *could*, and it sure and little fishes would be cheaper than another locomotive.!
Elias
Well the prototype bilevels (C1's) were MU'd in pairs, even though there were only 10 of them.
The only gaps are around the interlockings outside of the tunnel mouths and yes you can run diesels in a tunnel. The Detriot River Tunnel and that other CN tunnel in grand rapids have been dieselized for years. Not to mention such other notable tunnels as the Cascade and Hoosac.
and yes you can run diesels in a tunnel.
You *can* run them but you *may* not. It is AGAINST THE LAW to run diesel (or steam) locomotives south of 42nd Street. GCT tunnels are well ventilated and have little problem with diesels, the other tunnels are FREIGHT TUNNELS, not PASSENGER STATIONS!
You MAY NOT run diesels in the Penn Station Tunnels. (Ok, the protection locomotive *is* a diesel, but that is for EMERGIENCIES such as power failures and or fires.)
Elias
"GCT tunnels are well ventilated and have little problem with diesels"
But in fact no diesels ever run there except possibly in emergencies. I don't know if this is law or just standard practice. The locomotives running down to GCT are dual mode diesel plus third rail, and use the third rail power where it is available.
During the blackouts they didn't run trains pulled by locomotives to GCT. They terminated trains at 125th St.
"But in fact no diesels ever run there except possibly in emergencies. I don't know if this is law or just standard practice. The locomotives running down to GCT are dual mode diesel plus third rail, and use the third rail power where it is available."
In 1982, I took my first cab ride from NYC to Albany & back on AMTRAK FL-9 locos. I was not in the ab when the train left GCT so I don't know what mode it was in. I do remember running back to GCT in diesel mode - even in the tunnel. Of course, as I said, it was 1982 and it was AMTRAK.
True. I forgot. Amtrak locomotives out of GCT never had 3rd rail power. But MNRR locomotives have all had it as far back as my memory serves me (approx. 1960).
I'm not sure about MNRR dual modes using 3rd rail where ever it is available. I see the Hudson line trains near the Marble Hill station running on diesel on a regular basis; there is 3rd rail power available there.
All of the LIRR engineers that I've asked the question to have stated that they perfer to go to diesel mode as soon as they can. Most switch between the East River portal and Harold Tower.
Metro North like the LIRR switches right out of the tunnels into diesel mode due to the constraints placed on the engine. These dual-mode locomotives for the LIRR (DM30AC) and MN (P32ACDM) have the electric engine solely for the usage of running in the tunnels, and not for any other purpose. Using the electric engine in a outside territory puts too much strain on the third rail.
Chicago Cough Gag (aka Union) station is nearly itentical to Penn "open airness wise" and Amtrak/Metra are constantly idling a fleet diesels in it. Even though it is probably increasing lung cancer rates for Chicago area commuters the effect is far from deadly. Same goes for NJT AC Line geeps idling under 30th St. only since they only ever have one there at a time you barely notice the fumes it produces and that's only on the same platform as it.
Sometimes you can smell NJT's diesel at 30th Street, esp. when it's a little long for preventive maintenance. It's usually not a horrible smell in there, but diesel exhaust has more particulates in it than gasoline exhaust, so it's not good to be around it -esp. if you have asthma or an upper respiratory infection.
Chicago Cough Gag (aka Union) station is nearly itentical to Penn "open airness wise"
Not even so! the whole side is open to the river, and all of the passenger station is closed off from the tracks by sliding glass doors.
But be all of that as it may, what they could do and what the law permits them to do are two different things. And the history of the law is a textbook in convoluted private interest kickbacks ala who could but the most effective politicians.
Elias
NY Penn seems to be a ventilation nightmare. Stand on the east end of Track 17 at around 6:00 PM and you're in a haze of smoke. Rumor has it that this is the ventilation from the restaurant (TGI Fridays?) all the way over in the Amtrak waiting area.
I can only imagine what a few idling diesels would do down there...
CG
Bad! I was in a stalled train in the East River tubes last June in a dual-mode train when the train stalled. They had to start the diesels because they could not get the computers to reset. The smoke and fumes in the cars were so bad. Luckilly, the vents in the bilevel's fumed the smoke out. This was LIRR train #658 which leaves Penn Station at 4:19 which goes to Port Jefferson.
"The only gaps are around the interlockings outside of the tunnel mouths and yes you can run diesels in a tunnel. The Detriot River Tunnel and that other CN tunnel in grand rapids have been dieselized for years. Not to mention such other notable tunnels as the Cascade and Hoosac."
Once again, mikey, you have talked but have said nothing. To operate a diesel locomotive in an unveltilated tunnel is a violation of NYC law. Facts, mikey, facts.
That silly 1906 "exhaust producing" (before a diesel locomotive was even concieved of) ordinance is still in effect? Didn't it apply to the entire city? Shoudln't LIRR and Amtrak be running in electric mode from the city limits?
Didn't it apply to the entire city?
It applied as I have said, to Manhattan south of 42nd Street. That *is* why GCT is NORTH of 42nd Street.
The law was written (more or less) by PRR who wanted to keep the competition out of the city. North of 42nd Street in those days *was* out of the city. (more or less).
Elias
Then why did the NYC have to electrify its NYC area freight operations? Ditto for the New Haven down into Oak Point. Also, diesels were allowed. That famous CNJ #1 600hp box cab unit built by Alco worked the carfloat piers somewhere on southern Mahnattan. I think that the NYC bought their first Oil Electric locomotive for use in NYCity.
Why is the sky blue?
Because the atmosphere scatters blue light.
And by the way...a lot of things are illegal. Many towns make it illegal for freight trains to block crossings for over X minutes. Do the railroads care? No, they block the crossings anyway and take the $xxx.00 ticket as a cost of bussiness. So, if on the off chance that for some bizzare reason a DM hauled train becomes gaped in the middle of C interlocking and it revs up to move the 30 feet to get back on the juice and on the off chance that some NYC law enforcement official is on hand to witness the infraction, how much would Amtrak/LIRR be liable for?
If you multiply the probability of a summons being issued time the fine amount and then compare it to the cost of having 10 locomotives tied up unnecessarily I am willing to bet that it would be cheaper just to run the risk of running a single loco that if it gaps would just diesel itself to safety.
"And by the way...a lot of things are illegal. Many towns make it illegal for freight trains to block crossings for over X minutes. Do the railroads care? No, they block the crossings anyway and take the $xxx.00 ticket as a cost of bussiness. "
Or they ignore the ticket entirely. Since railroads operate under federal jurisdiction, they can legally ignore citations, summonses etc. issued by municipalities as unenforceable.
However, it is not always wise for a RR, esp. a passenger road, to piss off constituents unnecessarily.
Railroads tend to enforce their own rules rather closely. OTH: they are on their own ROWs, and they may try not to obstruct crossings and such, but it is the street that is crossing their land and not vice versa.
If this is a problem for a city, they are free to negeotiate and finance the construction of an overpass.
Out here, the RR has been unilaterly removing grade crossings, and erecting barricades in their place. Aint squat they can do about it either.
Elias
From the cases I have read the RR's have to pay the fine. The states can regulate railroads to some degree. NJ requires ATC on all its passenger lines, PA requires a toilet in every leading locomotive, etc.
THANK YOU ELIAS!
I think I proposed that like 6 months ago, only to have it pooh poohed by JM. Tell me that it's possible, just have the cab car have some shoes on it, all the other cars have a cable for 750 VDC, one serious cable with a width probably something like the air hose on most trains, but still doable. IIRC, JM complained that 750 VDC running below the passengers feet was not a good idea, what happens now with the M1,3, and 7? Does the contact shoe on those magically make 750VDC become 120VAC so it's "Safe" for the passengers? All you need is one car out of the train, preferably the cab car, to get the maximum gap clearance from the loco, to have maybe 4 pickup shoes, just like one of the DMs.
It'd be a great way to run off peak one-seat rides into some areas, I know the east river tunnels are a bit crowded at rush hour, but there must be gaps that new DMs could fit into off-peak, and theres probably less demand off peak, so 6 car trains would not be a problem. Also, you could have MN and LIRR gap cars, with the two different contact shoes. Both LIRRs and MNs would be bomba cars (would Shoreliners line up properly with LIRR's Kawasakis?), and special trains could be run Poughkipsee-Jamaica via Amtraks west side line and Penn. The bombardier cars would either have Over or Underrunning contact shoes, depending upon the engine, be it P32 or DM30 and the proper jumper to pass the watts on. Each train would have 3 contact cars, one matching the loco, immediately behind the cab car, and the other two, one just in front of the loco, and the other the cab car, with contact shoes opposing the loco. Actually, come to think of it, a line via west side wouldn't need MN electrification at all, so this wouldn't be needed, but it still could be used if or when a tunnel connecting Penn and GCT is built.
Anyone want to place a wager on whether MN will go overrunning, LIRR/Amtrak go underrunning, both parties look at it good and see that Catenary is the way to go, or just say 'screw it' and leave both systems alone and just operate equipment that can handle the change in 3rd rail, either a new contact shoe, or the railcar thing I described above.
think I proposed that like 6 months ago, only to have it pooh poohed by JM. Tell me that it's possible, just have the cab car have some shoes on it, all the other cars have a cable for 750 VDC, one serious cable with a width probably something like the air hose on most trains, but still doable. IIRC, JM complained that 750 VDC running below the passengers feet was not a good idea, what happens now with the M1,3, and 7?
Are you talking about me? I would have had no problem with that solution except maybe for the fact that it makes the cars harder to couple and uncouple. There are also problems with bridging isolated third rail sections. This could lead to serious accidents involving track and maintainence workers and might damage the power supply. Other ppl know more about it than me, but whenever I suggested a trainlegnth bus in the past that's the FlaK I get.
Did the Hi-Vs (Lo-Vs, too?) have train length connections with 600 volts? If NO, then end of question. If YES then how did the subway handle it?
In the early days of the IRT they did have train length 600V lines, but they also had special signals at every 3rd rail section break, so that if a train on a powered section approached an unpowered section it would stop to avoid bridging the gap and energizing the unpowered section.
That's the official reason, but given that Amtrak's Genesis dual-modes are never run push-me, pull-you style, I think Amtrak simply distrusts the DM's as locomotives. The DE/DM's cannot singly handle any train over 6 cars anyway. At least one of the dual-mode consists is over 6 cars.
The Amtrak Genesis P32ACDM is identical to Metro North one's.
And Metro North runs them Push pull with up to 8 cars.
I can keep schedule with one of those just as good as with two FL-9's.
The Fact is however Amtrak is very strict with their no Combustible engines in Penn or its tunnels. other than the rescue power at Tower C and Harold protect you will never see diesels run in tunnel.
The FL-9's were about last ones.
Wouldn't the third rail shoes be different? Or is that just a lie that the MTA told us all, and really the MN is just a messed up looking over-running third rail, and there are no problems, trains can now run down from the Harlem Line, through a new tunnel down park ave, to a special LIRR-MTA 34th st east side station, and out the penn tunnels! Just like SEPTA!
Just kidding, but do you mind if I ask how hard it is to change a shoe? Could Amtrak's P32DM-ACs run into GCT on electric, or could MN's P32s run into Penn with a minimal shop visit? Could the work be done in the field, like at a station stop? And finally, is there a way to make a shoe that can run under both over and under running third rails? It seems possible to me, just have a contact shoe on both sides, and a jackscrew to raise and lower the entire aparatus relative to the truck, up for overrunning, down for underrunning, suspention of the shoe would occur further out than the jackscrew. Crap I gotta go crank out the Patents!
AMTK locomotives have retractable collection shoes. They can be extended in either positon for over-rail or under-rail operations.
Elias
Technically they are tri-levels if you count the level that the doors and bathrooms are at.
It's like a split level house. Enter the foyer; walk either up or down a half-flight of stairs.
Damn, you beat me to it. I like the sound of "split-levels" for railway cars.
The Bayridge Branch is not electrified so how come non eletric trains are allowed to operate in the tunnels like in East NY. Is this rule for Passenger Trains only?
Is that tunnel ventilated?
If you have a ventilation plant allowing sufficient evacuation of exhaust fumes, you can operate a diesel locomotive within it.
Note that if the ventilation plant in the Lincoln Tunnel were to fail, the Port Authority would close it to vehicular traffic until repairs could be effected.
The law applies to Manhattan south of 42nd Street. Last I looked that did not include Bayridge. Do passenger trains run in that tunnel? Is there a STATION in the tunnel?
Elias
If I recall correctly, the only station truly underground is the Atlantic Av terminal.
And if Amtrak ever gets off their ass and fixes the track like they were supposed to years ago, what will their excuse be then??? Wrong color? Doesn't go 'Choo Choo'.
This is starting to get pathetic. NY state should just buy up the ROW and run the damm service themselvs and kick Amtrak off the hudson line, entirely.
And if Amtrak ever gets off their ass and fixes the track...
Except that Amtrak doesn't own the track, MTA and CSX do.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
MTA is out of THAT pie, it's strictly our new Treasury Secretary, John SNOW who owns those tracks, and BRUNO was supposed to pay for it. He GOT his train station, now the high-speed trains can go straight to hell, it's AMTRAk, NOT BRUNO TRAILERLINES ... Until Amtrak changes their name to Brunolines, then not a PENNY for tracks.
Bottom line, those Turbo trains are ALREADY planned to run between Rensselaer and Saratoga between the two Job Bruno train stations. The financial charges went to NYC, but the TRAINS will run in Rennselaer. Once again, screw YOU NYC folks, it's BRUNO'S trains ... and Paturkey won't go up against the Bruno because he has no ball bearings ...
Budget contains ZERO for tracks, ZERO for turbo trains, and NYS is going to stiff Amtrak on the subsidy. Once Amtrak's gonads are back in the vise, look to ALL Amtrak service ending between NYC and "upstate" ... but those nifty new trains WILL run to Joe Bruno STADIUM ... for all 12 passengers wanting to go there ...
Sorry about that, I got impatient. It looked like it was "taking forever" and I was going to get one of those "message timed out" prompts. So I clicked again.
As soon as you click "submit", I mean INSTANTLY, your computer transmits its IP packets to Dave's computer. And even if Dave's computer didn't act on the incoming packets instantly, your computer would: 1) not tell you about it; 2) would keep trying to get them across; and 3) would not give you an opportunity to abort the submit command.
The delay is not caused between your computer and Dave's but in Dave's computer processing the input, sorting into the data base, and then recalling it from the data base, making a new HTML page out of it, and sending that to your computer. So... you are waiting for Dave's reply and not for your data to be transmitted.
As for me, and my supreme impatiance.... I click the back button as soon as I transmit, or will scroll up to the top of the screen and continue reading the thread. I *know* what I wrote, and do not need to see myself in print right away. Also my post remains in the UnRead color, so when I come back again later, I can easily see if someone responded to my post.
Elias : )
> between your computer and Dave's but in Dave's computer processing the input,
That's a pretty simplistic view; it's not as if your computer is directly connected to mine by a single ethernet cable. There are lots of routers and telecommunication links between you and me; and the path that data takes FROM you TO me may not be the same as the path that data flows FROM me TO you. So the problem is not necessarily processing the post into the database, you may actually not have gotten the reply.
: ) I made it simplistic on purpose, though not, of course, to be demeaning. My 1000 page textbook on TCP/IP is just about one of the driest most boring tomes ever written.
Still, pressing the 'stop' button will not abort the transmission of an IP packet that has already been released.
Once you click the submit button, the application layer is done with the project. session layers, and network layers take over the job, and work unseen to the application layer.
The sending of a post is one transaction. The return of a reply is another transasction. On a fast connection it seems as one, but it is otherwise.
Boring, but also intersting. Fortuately, this is not TCP/IP-Talk!
Elias
"My 1000 page textbook on TCP/IP is just about one of the driest most boring tomes ever written."
Thomas Pynchon could have written this as the center of one of his novels, but also inlcluded enough crazy charcters, funny stuff, and general wierdness to make it readable.
Your post should remain unread even if you do get to the confirmation page. At least it does for me and Mozilla.
At least it does for me and Mozilla.
Works fine for me.... and I'm running Netscape 7.01... BTY the pop-up blockers are GREAT, and for that reason alone I ignore MSIE.
Elias
For what it's worth, "Click Once" also applies when nominating
any given poster to ye personal SubTALK Killfile..
I caught a song that I think is by rap artist Eminem that uses the 'clickety-clack' sound of a fast moving train as the backbeat to the lyrics. Has anyone else heard this?
Which song is it?
---Brian
I don't know the name of it, but I believe it's current and might be part of the album that came out when '8 Mile' was released.
I doubt that any recording studio would go through the trouble of recording sounds off a moving train when they could just use a synthesizer.
This TOO is a BRUNO project, and like the two rail stations Bruno built, nobody bothered to talk to Amtrak about THIS EITHER. Throw the money, get the camera time for "creating local jobs" and walk away to the next glad-handing photo op without any regard to what happens. Amtrak isn't asking for anything out of line - once these trains are turned over, they become Amtrak's problem ... it would be nice to have parts, part numbers and drawings. Any "car equipment shop" would expect THAT much ...
Shows you the level of stupidity you people keep electing though. :(
Even rail workers in danger:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-India-Train-Crash.html
At least its better than that one that killed like 300 people about a year back.
"Even rail workers in danger"
Not "even", "particularly". On most rail systems in the world, the employees are in greater danger of death than the passengers.
Yes, true. I was questioning whether Indian railway workers were more in danger than rail workers in other Asian countries, or in Europe.
Ron,
Did you already move to Kansas City? If so, do you know if they are still trying to build a commuter train service from Johnson County KS to KCMO Union Station? When I lived there 5 years ago, they were talking about this proposal. Also, are they still trying to build a LRT there?
A couple days ago, me and my wife went to Miami. We went on Metrorail from Government Center to Dadeland South, and the both of us noticed the line is impractical. The central Miami stations are away from the downtown (I realize there is a Metromover connection), and the Coconut Grove Station is quite a hike from the actual enclave. The stations are away from heavily populated residential areas, and does not stop in the heart of areas of interest (ie Little Havana and the center of Coconut Grove).
Does anyone in Miami know why this route was poorly designed? I enjoy riding subways and LRT of different cities, and in my opinion, New York City, Chicago, and Washington D.C. have the most practical routes (although D.C. does not have service to Georgetown).
Poorly designed? it gets ton's of rider's everyday so you can't complain. I love the Metrorail and the Metromover,ok I'll say it,I LOVE MIAMI AND I WISH I COULD LIVE THERE!!!....but I'm not rich so I can't...damn that suck's.
What is the daily ridership for Metrorail?
Well, I got a proposal for you....
I'll fund you a weekend stay in Miami if, on the way down, you make a quick stop in Kissimmee and "take care" of somebody for me...
don't worry, we'll dress you up like Mickey Mouse (or Minnie Mouse, or Goofy or whatever), so you'll be completely disguised.
Whaddayasay?
[but I'm not rich so I can't...damn that suck's.]
You don't have to be rich to live in Miami, BTW. But it does help to have some $$$ down there. :)
[...Coconut Grove Station is quite a hike from the actual enclave.]
NIMBY at work!! It's far enough away so that the filthy rich folks don't see it, but close enough for their domestic employees to use.
Just found out thier rail cars once rode on the los angeles red line
subway 2 nowhere back in 1993 when the red line first opened !
why the red line in los angeles used the rolling stock of miami
is a question i must ask someone here who is the expert on this
my second set of photos show the miami rail cars on the red line
downstairs ....1
Actually, the Miami and the Baltimore cars were a joint order from Budd. The cars are identical except the Baltimore cars have an end sign and the Miami cars don't.
All the platforms on both systems are islands and the operator's control is on the left.
LA's cars were built by either Breda or a Japanese builder. They just look similar.
Dan,
There's a GREAT example of 2 cities working together on a common cause, to save money by buying in bulk, per se.
Mark
here is proff of what i am saying
**********************************************************
the miami cars were here back in 1993 ....!.............?
SCRTD had to borrow the 4 Miami Metrorail cars because they didn't have enough of the Bredas on hand for testing (as I recall there was a problem with a Breda sub-contractor which delayed the delivery of the cars for awhile in late 1991 and early 1992. I got to see (and photograph) the 4 Metrorail cars at the Red Line open house at the yard in May 1992 (for those interested, the 4 cars were 126/127 and 141/142. I think the Miami cars were used for testing from the very end of 1991 until the fall of 1992 when sufficient Bredas had been delivered. They never operated in revenue service (although theye did carry media on a test run or two) and may have been back in Miami by the time the Red Line opened to the public on January 30, 1993.
"the Red Line opened to the public on January 30, 1993"....
i was there when it opened for the first time ..
no green line 105 freeway under construction ...
Sounds quite familiar here in NYC, much like the V line.
Sounds quite familiar here in NYC, much like the V line.
You are absolutely correct. The V line goes from nowhere to nowhere. It starts at the useless, poorly populated neighborhood of Forest Hills, then travels along the little-used Queens Boulevard line to Queens Plaza. After crossing into Manhattan at 53rd Street, it has a connection to the always empty, should-be-abandoned #6 train at Lexington Avenue/53rd Street, which unfortunately is nowhere near any major office buildings. The same can be said for the mostly-abandoned and obsolete Rockefeller Center that is two stops away. Starting at Rockefeller Center the V travels underneath 6th Avenue, which might as well be in Alaska for how far away it is from the center of the city.
Right, the V is definitely the most useless line in New York.
Yes and as long as they give G riders the finger and say "Screw you" with 4 car sardines and shorting rush hour service to Court Square, making commuters take a long walk through a long passageway, I will ALWAYS think the V line is the most useless, and worst line.
Until NYCT decides to bring the G line back to Forest Hills (pre 12/11/01 service pattern) during the day and shortening back to Court Square in the evening and weekends, I will not change my mind about the V line.
6 car trains on the G is a necessary improvement, but the only thing an extension to Forest Hills would add is inconvenience to a much larger group of passengers along Queens Boulevard.
"Until NYCT decides to bring the G line back to Forest Hills (pre 12/11/01 service pattern) during the day and shortening back to Court Square in the evening and weekends, I will not change my mind about the V line."
Fortunately, MTA is not about to do what you want, because then you'd hear what 900,000 commuters think about YOU (not good).
I don't want to make excuses so that 900,000 people hate my guts, I just want fairer treatment for customers on the G line. I really think that NYCT is shortsighted and should find a way to build two tracks (as they had planned 10 years ago but scrapped it for unknown reasons.) that run underneath Queens Plaza and have the G line end there 24/7 as a lower level terminal. It would make transferring easier to the E and V lines while retaining the direct transfer to the R line (lost once the V line went into effect.). Just two tracks with 2 side platforms will do the trick. Plus Queens Blvd local service will be unaffected and at that point, I can say positive things about the V line.
"I don't want to make excuses so that 900,000 people hate my guts, I just want fairer treatment for customers on the G line. I really think that NYCT is shortsighted and should find a way to build two tracks (as they had planned 10 years ago but scrapped it for unknown reasons.) that run underneath Queens Plaza and have the G line end there 24/7 as a lower level terminal. It would make transferring easier to the E and V lines while retaining the direct transfer to the R line (lost once the V line went into effect.). "
That is a nice idea. I posted that idea on Subtalk a long while ago, and wrote to the MTA asking about it. I was told by other Subtalkers that engineering constraints, like dealing with soil conditions, the slope required of a ramp to go under Queens Plaza, and other factors would make building a new terminal like that exceptionally difficult. I estimate that it would be a minimum $100 million job; I may be wrong about that.
However, G riders do deserve concessions. I wrote to MTA and testified at the announced hearings regarding two specific ideas:
1) Create an upgraded, fully ADA-compliant station cluster around Court Square which would incorporate the Metrocard transfers offered now and make the area safer, more "climate controlled" etc.
2) Create a Metrocard transfer between Lex/63 and Lex/59. Admittedly, you do need to ride escalators a lot to use it (and walk in between to boot) but it's better than nothing. I pushed this at the hearings, when every other speaker was mostly concerned about venting.
I was pleasantly surprised when I got a written reply from MTA validating both ideas. The "station cluster" would be done in stages, and the first stage was the moving sidewalk. The MetroCard transfer between the 63 St line and the Lex would be implemented, and marked on the new maps.
We're not done yet. I want to see MTA contuinue to make progress upgrading the LIC area stations.
Keep an eye on that, would you? And bug them if they get bogged down.
I congratulate you on your tireless efforts to wrtie to the MTA, speak up at public hearing, etc.
I noticed at the public hearing on the Queens Blvd line changes at LIC H.S., nobody spoke against the plan that would cut G trains service (at that time, 24/7 to Court Square only.), despite NYCT's efforts to publicize this hearing. Good thing that some strides are being made to make the G transfer less inconvenient, but more has to be done. If it were not for community opposition and letter writing to the MTA, then the Franklin Shuttle would join the ranks along with the Myrtle Ave and 3rd Ave els. as an abandoned line. Rebuilding the Franklin Shuttle was one of the smartest things NYCT and MTA has done in recent memory.
Public involvement can save subway lines, improve exisiting structures and will get results.
I agree with you. Good attitude. You can make a difference too!
Yep, that is useless!
The V line goes from nowhere to nowhere. It starts at the useless, poorly populated neighborhood of Forest Hills, then travels along the little-used Queens Boulevard line to Queens Plaza. After crossing into Manhattan at 53rd Street, it has a connection to the always empty, should-be-abandoned #6 train at Lexington Avenue/53rd Street, which unfortunately is nowhere near any major office buildings. The same can be said for the mostly-abandoned and obsolete Rockefeller Center that is two stops away. Starting at Rockefeller Center the V travels underneath 6th Avenue, which might as well be in Alaska for how far away it is from the center of the city.
Heh heh, if the city keeps raising taxes to pay for Medicaid, your posting may actually become true!
Please tell me I did not just see that.Man o man you SERIOUSLY better be joking cause I'm not gonna sit here and let you get a way with that!! Are you smoking crack or what in the damn hell is wrong with you!? What do I have do? beat the living hell out of every V hater I see untill nobody in the entire city complain's about the V? hmmm....I like the sound of that...heh..heh..heh..heh..heh. -grins evilly-
American Pig was posting satire, in case you missed it...
-snorts- I still don't like what he said.
He was agreeing with you. Go back and read it again.
Jeez, V Train, no sense gettin' your knickers in a twist ... even if Piglet weren't being sarcastic, one has to acknowledge, based on a dispassionate review of the situation, that the V is rather less useful than certain other lines.* That's all. Ain't the end of the world.
* = actually, than all other lines would be a more accurate assessment, but I was trying to put a semi-positive spin on things.
* = actually, than all other lines would be a more accurate assessment, but I was trying to put a semi-positive spin on things.
But if you said that, you'd have to add:
**bsed on an interview with a non-subway rider.
* = actually, than all other lines would be a more accurate assessment, but I was trying to put a semi-positive spin on things.
That V train is definitely much less useful than the Rockaway Shuttle, which serves the BUSTLING Beach 105th Street station among many other places. That Beach 105th Street must break records for high ridership!
Even ridership on the OLD Franklin Shuttle was much more than the V line today. And the shuttle has 2 car sets
Where do you get these numbers? The Weekly World News?
Where do you get these numbers? The Weekly World News?
Hey, I like the Weekly World News!
If you study the matter more closely, you might be able to determine that the turnstile count at Dean Street in 2002 was higher than the V train's ridership.
You should then write to MTA and share that with them.
Which means zero because there was no Dean Street in 2002.
At Dean Street the count was zero even when it WAS open. However if you counted the people OVER the turnstile or through the gates...
Do you want MTA's address for your letter?
NIMBY considerations, primarily. Metrorail is getting an extension from its northern terminal to the interstate which will help to some degree.
Remarkably, despite its route, people have learned to use it, and ridership today is pretty good for Miami standards.
MetroMover does help downtown.
V line helps get customers with a median income of over $100,000 a one seat ride to midtown.
G line helps get customers with a median income of $30,000 or less a NO seat ride that dumps you off somewhere in the boondocks in Long Island City, in addition to a long walk for the second train to midtown, rather thann a crossover to the other platform at Queens Plaza.
Now you've figured out how it works!
>>V line helps get customers with a median income of over $100,000 a one seat ride to midtown
Is this a case of YIMBYism? It's not necessarily fair, but I suppose it beats NIMBYism.
Mark
"V line helps get customers with a median income of over $100,000 a one seat ride to midtown. "
Where did you dream that up? Have you ever been to Queens? Why don't you visit Jackson Heights, Elmhurst, and apartment blocks in Forest Hills and tell me who there earns $100,000 a year, and then show me who's on the subway? I'm amazed you can actualy post that with a straight face.
"G line helps get customers with a median income of $30,000 or less a NO seat ride that dumps you off somewhere in the boondocks in Long Island City,"
Actually, LIC is now the scene of a lot of economic development. But you're right in that Court St area stations need improving - and they are getting it.
"in addition to a long walk for the second train to midtown"
Ignorant nonsense. It's a better transfer than the one between 53rd/Lex and the IRT, and it has a moving sidewalk.
The V service plan is about numbers. 900,000 daily riders on Queens Blvd. outrank less than 100,000 riders on the G.
I was a commuter on the Miami Metrorail in 1985 to 1987. I used to walk from my Condo and ride the rail from Dadeland South to Govenment Center. This was even before they finished the People Mover connecting downtown Miami. LOVED THE RIDE and used to smile all the way...especially when looking down at the vehicles "Bumper to Bumper" all along Dixie Highway heading North in the AM and South in the PM. The traffic jams were obvious from the Viscaya Station stop to Dadeland South stop in the evening and visa versa in the Morning. What was great about the Metro-Rail was it's cleanliness, speed and comfort. (If I am not mistaken they used mimimum security prisoners, after hours, to keep the stations in "Tip Top Shape"....Clean, Graffitti and Rat Free.
If my memory serves me right, each station has escalators and elevators to and from the station platform to the fare control area.
At that time I rode the MetroRail...from it's opening date, back in the mid to late 80's, a fare of $1.00 (Susan B. Anthony) would get you a one-way ride. Not only to work downtown on Brickell Avenue but also to Hialeah Race Track.
Miami has given me some real fond memories.
Amen to that. I lived in Coral Gables while attending the University of Miami's post-BA premedical program. Irode Metrorail from 86-88. It was a good ride. I got off downtown to catch a bus into Little Havana, where I would serve 1 shift per month with Miami Fire Dept's Rescue 7 as a volunteer EMT (I was on UM's First Aid Squad).
I am not sure why Metrorail takes the route it does in the downtown Miami, but south of downtown it runs along (well above actually) the old Florida East Coast (FEC) Railroad right-of-way (that once went all the way to Key West) which is just west of US 1, so that is why it doesn't go into the heart of Coconut Grove.
One thing to consider is that the Metrorail that is running today is but a fraction of the original system proposed. I have read that there was supposed to be a branch continuing north on NW 27th Av past where Metrorail currently turns west on NW 79th St (indeed you can see the provision that was made for this on the elevated structure supports), as well as some other branches. Currently there are proposals to build this branch (it would go up 27th Av to the Dade/Broward county line, serving, among other locations, Pro Player Stadium (home of the Miami Dolphins and Florida Marlins as well as the host of the Orange Bowl game), and others, more details can be found at http://www.trafficrelief.com/
Whether any of these will ever get built in our lifetime is anyone's guess, the 1/2 cent sales tax that was passed by Miami-Dade County voters last November, which went into effect on Wednesday will help that effort greatly, though the immediate focus is to improve current MDT bus and train service.
Yeah, there's some good news on the horizon. Metrorail will be extended to the insterstate. As for the new branches, we'll see.
As it stands,the only current extention that's gonna occur is to the Palmetto Expressway with 1 new station after Okechobee.It is almost done,hoepfully it'll open sometime this year.
As it stands,the only current extention that's gonna occur is to the Palmetto Expressway with 1 new station after Okechobee.It is almost done,hopefully it'll open sometime this year.
Here's a story from The Miami Herald about BayLink, a proposed light rail line that would connect Miami with Miami Beach:
BayLink Rail Plan Slowly Gaining Support
The story says that the light rail line would connect with a planned east-west Metrorail line which would connect downtown with the airport. I'd not heard of this plan before. Is this east-west line a likely reality? If so, do any of our Miami subtalkers think that these two new projects are good ideas?
I rode Metrorail once myself during a very short (a few hours) stay in Miami, but not enough to get real impressions of the system.
Mark
You can get more info on the East - West line as well as many other proposed routes for Miami's Metrorail at www.trafficrelief.com. Unfortunately, most of these routes will probably face NIMBY opposition as well as financing shortfalls.
I have lived in Miami for three years after moving from New York. I have noticed that Miami desperately needs public transportation to reduce the traffic on roadways. At current moment, my commute of 15 miles takes about hour to an hour and a half. However, if I decided to take public transportation right now, that would turn into two and a half hours minimum.
I point this out because this is the argument the general public takes towards expanding the Metrorail system. They can't understand how giving more Metrorail routes can save time. Although the public recently agreed to the People's Transportation Plan, it is beleived that most of the new money collected will go towards adding more buses and bus routes.
I guess time will tell. But I think I'll be retired and probably a long way from Miami before I see another Metrorail route opening.
>>I guess time will tell. But I think I'll be retired and probably a long way from Miami before I see another Metrorail route opening.
That brings to mind a question...do you think that given the large numbers of retirees in Florida, and given that with aging people sometimes lose the ability to drive, the need for good public transportation in Florida will become even more acute? Furthermore, since retirees often have more political clout than those who ride transit out of economic necesity, that seniors who can't drive could be a force for change in the transit picture?
Mark
That brings to mind a question...do you think that given the large numbers of retirees in Florida, and given that with aging people sometimes lose the ability to drive, the need for good public transportation in Florida will become even more acute? Furthermore, since retirees often have more political clout than those who ride transit out of economic necesity, that seniors who can't drive could be a force for change in the transit picture?
Possibly. In many cases, however, I would suspect that seniors who are no longer able to drive are too physically enfeebled to handle all the walking that transit use often requires.
"Possibly. In many cases, however, I would suspect that seniors who are no longer able to drive are too physically enfeebled to handle all the walking that transit use often requires. "
Not really. It depends why they are enfeebled.
Your not having the reflexes for safe driving doesn't mean you can't ride transit. Remember that in Miami, Metrorail is 100% ADA-compliant and the stations and subway cars have audio and visual aids. Also, the bus system is probably 100% ADA compliant as well.
That makes a huge difference.
And most retirees have stop retiring in Miami per se. Most retirees are now choosing more northerly areas in Broward and Palm Beach counties.
>>Most retirees are now choosing more northerly areas in Broward and Palm Beach counties.
So then will Broward and Palm Beach counties need better transit as their populations age?
Mark
Probably not Palm Beach. They don't actively try to expand. They like all their small communities and prefer that the hustle and bustle of a big city stay away from them. So their basic bus system does fine.
Broward county does have "proposals" for light rail to service the airport, the ports, and downtown Ft. Lauderdale. But they're a long ways away from any ground breaking ceremonies. Much less getting a system that goes off to the western portions of the county where most of the homes are.
And other states entirely....both the 'burbs of Vegas and newly developed communities in Arizona are the latest retiree 'hotspots'. Florida is highly overrated as many are no realizing.
"And most retirees have stop retiring in Miami per se. Most retirees are now choosing more northerly areas in Broward and Palm Beach counties. "
No, that's not exactly in context. Most retirees WITH THE MONEY TO AFFORD THAT go north. There are plenty of senior citizens in Miami proper, and their numbers are growing. My previous comment stands.
From what little information I was able to dig up, the route was designed using the path of least resistance. The idea of mass transit came up as a political issue and something needed to be created to fulfill a campaign promise.
What FYBKLYN1959 stated in his post is correct. South of Downtown, they built over the old FEC right of way. Since there aren't many homes in this area, no opposition.
It's East - West turn follows along the route 112 freeway and through industrial areas. Again, little opposition.
It's turn North - South travels through low income neighborhoods. These neighborhoods welcome public transit since owning private vehicles is not financially possible for many.
The last East - West leg is where I'm stumped. I have no idea why this alignment was chosen. I would have assumed the route continuing North to Pro-Player stadium would have received more ridership. If someone can explain that one to me, please do.
Exactly my point when this subject came up some months ago....the MetroRail makes a giant U-turn in Dade County. The rapid transit line dosen't even cover the poorer neigbhorhoods that would most benefit from this mass transit system.
It looks and runs nice, but it's a joke when compared to most other transit systems, particularly NYC, Boston and Chicago. Even the D.C. Metro does a better job.
Actually, the route resembles BART in some ways. BART is, roughly, a huge semicircle with some additional branches coming off it. The difference is, though, BART is much better situated in its environment and goes more miles, and connects to a superb Muni.
Does the BART run in a hugh semi-circle because of its terrain (i.e. the hills in Alameda and Contra Costa Counties?
I railfanned BART, MUNI Metro, and the Cable Cars 10 years ago, and I think the interconnections are excellent, with the exception of the CALTRAIN depot (before the MUNI Metro extension).
The connections are great.
Exactly how was the original routing determined? Dunno.
Old Tom, you're a little closer. Do you know?
It was smart for BART to create a line from Freemont to Concord to serve Oakland's CBD. Riding from Berkeley to Freemont during the evening rush hour, the downtown Oakland BART stations were extremely crowded.
Does Oakland have any plans to build a LRT?
Don't know - but I like the idea, generally.
Itink Oakland deserves a BART branch of its own...
Don't know - but I like the idea, generally.
I think Oakland deserves a BART branch of its own...
Also speaking of Miami rail transit, how come the Tri-Rail doe not go to the Miami CBD? Also, having more mid afternoon train service from Ft. Lauderdale Airport to Miami would be useful.
Not sure, it may be due to lack of track connections on the CSX line on which Tri-Rail runs (I don't follow freight railroads generally so I am unsure where exactly all the CSX tracks run).
The Tri-Rail is upgrading their tracks from Palm Beach county to Miami-Dade county so that the majority of the line will be doubletracked. This will be able to increase the frequency of trains as well as allow trains to "bunny hop" past freight trains.
Getting Tri-rail into the downtown area is not an easy prospect. Most of the tracks down there were meant for slow moving short freight trains and there are no locations suitable for a passenger station. There no "mainline" tracks that can be used as far as I know.
Where in Miami is the Amtrak station? Could it be of use to commuter trains? Is it already in use by Tri-Rail?
Mark
The Amtrak station is 10 miles away from downtown in the middle of Hialeah. Not exactly a commercial center of Miami (but there are proposals to fix that too.) Tri-rail shares these tracks as well and actually continue past this point a few miles south to terminate at the Miami International Airport station.
Currently under construction (you read right, something actually being built!) is the Miami Intermodal Center which will be located at the airport. This will encompass the current Tri-rail Airport station, provide a new station so that Amtrak can also terminate here, and create provisions so that the proposed Metrorail East - West route will have a platform as well.
In 1988, I took the Silver Star from Miami. Iremember the station to be a plain vanilla box with a passenger platform outside of it. Very unimpressive; however I had a gallant crew who really showed me a good time.
Well, that Amtrak station hasn't changed much. The link below is a page from the 79th Street Corridor Initative, part of the South Florida Community Development Coalition website. Once your on the page, click for the Photo Tour and then click on Amtrak. There are a couple of pictures there of the Amtrak station and it's surroundings.
Maybe it's me, but if I was coming to Miami from anywhere, this is definitely not what I expect to see when I get off the train.
http://www.floridacdc.org/79th/index.html
Yes, that's it. A glass box and a parking lot...
Interesting discussion thusfar.
I was in Miami 3 weeks ago, I took a ride on the system (Metrorail, plus all 3 metromover lines and Tri-Rail). It was a Saturday, but I was pretty impressed with the loads overall. The system does seem to "carry".
One thing struck me though, the station spacing on the northern part of the Metrorail route seemed much closer that the southern portion.
So it seems that planners thought pedestrian access would be more crucial in the northern part of the city. The stations were close enough to resemble a circa 1900 el, whereas south of downtown the spacing was more MARTA or WMATA like.
BTW... I also went to Tampa, the new TECO streetcar line is well worth a visit. Those ex-Milan (I think) compressors and trucks sure make all the right sounds!
Cars 9257-60 were transfered to Canaries Yard sometime yesterday. It look like since XMas and New Years are over the testing is going to resume.
Robert
Those are NOT R143 car number, these numbers are (I think) assigned to R33 Mainline, and may have been retired
TYPO, he means 8257-60.
wayne
How many R143's are not yet delivered/in service? I couldn't find a single R42 L train yesterday and I'm pretty sure the entire L line will be R143. I'm just curious as to when they'll start to appear on other eastern division lines (like the M).
I saw a trainset of R143's on the (M) late at night a few weeks ago, when it was operating as a shuttle between Myrtle Avenue and Metropolitian Avenue. (I was riding a (J) from Manhattan to Broadway Junction, and saw the (M) R143's as we passed through Myrtle Avenue.)
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
I know. Those are borrowed L trains which are cut in half for the shuttle to allow OPTO service. What I'd like to know is when will the R143 be assigned to the M fleet??
First of all yes I did make a Typo with the number, thanks for fixing it for me.
Second, I saw a list at ENY of cars inservice and yet to be delivered. From what I saw there are only 7 or 8 sets not yet delivered. As for the M get there own sets, it might within that next mouth or two. The TA still has to train the crew on the M line from them.
Robert
If that's the case, they'll have to start putting 4x4 conductor boards and tv cameras/monitors where needed on the M line pretty quickly!
Boards yes, TV Cameras/monitors no. The L line did not get the monitors on station where they are needed yet, only the R42's have them. TA think since the door are so senctive that they don't need them right away.
Robert
You mean Thursday? I boarded a R42 at my home stop, at the same time one was pulling in Canarsie bound. There was another right after the southbound at Sutter. That was three that I saw on my short ride to Bway Jct, where I met....... The next post.
Its 8257-60, NOT 9257-60; these are/were R33's on the IRT mainlines.
CANARIES Yard? Is that where the YELLOWBIRDS will lay up? ;-)
With a light snow falling early this morning, I thought I would head over to the Flushing Line and see some arcing. I was a little anxious about going that far, since I have not gotten the Jan 2003 edition of THE MAP, and was afraid that some route changes affecting my trip might have been made.
Much to my delight, I noticed that just north of the Kings Highway platform, there was a nice gap in the 3rd rail which spews sparks. Equally promising is that the express and local Q frequently meet at Kings Highway, giving me the opportunity to catch 2 trains arcing side by side.
I froze a couple of frames, but they don't capture the flavor of the spot. I zoomed in too close, and the shots are grainy. Also they fail to capture the arcing that occurs before and after the gap. I hope to go back there tonight and get some better shots.
I was also happy to bump into Lou Levinson on his way to work.
Kings Highway Sparks Flying
Zoom back a little and repost. The picture looks more like a forest fire than a train arcing.
I would agree that I zoomed in too much. However, I liked that it seemed more like a forest fire than a train arcing.
Here's a shot with a lot more bright arcing. Unfortunately the reflective sides of the slants and the 68's overload the picture. It would have been better with the triplexes and standards passing by.
http://photo.starblvd.net/paul3025/3-1-5.jpg
There is always something exciting to take a picture on the world famous Brighton Line, whether it's one of the oldest turn of the centuary control houses on Avenue H station (unchanged to this day), an exciting ride on the slant R40 (and sometimes and R40M) Q express while looking out the railfan window, or the arching pic you just took. It does need to be a bit clearer, all I see is the 3rd rail adhesion and the sparks.
Too bad our California friend who worships the Sea-Beach line can find a more exciting place to witness arching on his line.
Amen, Fred has been to Kings Hwy with me 2 years ago, and was impressed with the neighborhood, That is where he tried to pick up a 17 year old cashier at Edelman s Deli. Glad Paul is back on Line
You meant Adleman's deli off East 18th Street? Great place to eat
yUP, i JUST SPELLED IT WRONG
Yes! Another plus for our Brighton line, it offers great spots for picture taking too, not to mention the plaque at Newkirk for which the line is widely recognized :-). Also besides the Av H stationhouse, we got all different types of structures INCLUDING a 4 track el at Brighton Beach & Ocean Pkwy [boy we are spoiled 8-)].
I wish some R32's could make a return to the Brighton and/or the R42 but a R40/R40M is good enough.
Yeah, too bad our Sea Beach friend's line doesnt have the arcing or picture opportunities but he's repping his line and I respect that. Hey we rep our line too. Me, you, Brighton Exp Bob, Bill Newkirk and others are 'proud' to call the 'world famous' Brighton line our home line just like how Fred takes great pride in his Sea Beach.
And as a veteran of the Brighton line D train (though I lived on the other end) you can put me down as one who LOVED working that line, even at oh dark hundred. :)
Just a fact that the Brighton Line is the ONLY 6 track el in existence today (between Brighton Beach and Ocean Parkway!) Another plus for the best line in the world!
I told Fred about the plaque at Newkirk Ave station, thats what got him beat by me. Remember the posting yesterday about how he wants his Republican buddy, President Bush to declare his Sea-Beach a National Historical Landmark?
I wish Unca Fred luck in getting that declaration. Is there any OIL down there? Maybe by Ft Hamilton Parkway perhaps? Although ... there's a few underpasses on the Sea Bits that would make a GREAT "undisclosed secret location" ... :)
Oh yes, the 6 track el NO other line could claim that. Yeah, I read it and I thought it was funny. Sorry Fred, I have respect for your line but our Brighton beat you to a historical plaque by many, many years.
and I wrote I doubt Bush would ever ride the NY Subway, let alone the Slow Beach Local to Nowhere
"Hey we rep our line too. Me, you, Brighton Exp Bob, Bill Newkirk and others are 'proud' to call the 'world famous' Brighton line our home line just like how Fred takes great pride in his Sea Beach."
Let's not forget another classic view about the Brighton Line, not many people point out. The Empire State Building !
On the embankment portion between Sheepshead Bay and Ave H, a clear day or night would yield the Empire State Bldg in the distance. Sort of awe inspiring as I remember it clearly when I was a kid, nose pressed up against the railfan window on an R-32 (Q) express (mid 60's).
Bill "Newkirk"
a-men to that, I remember it well
I think Fred realizes that our line has far more subtalkers than his. He tries to make up for it all by himself. Doesn't help, though.
You mean this view?
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/BrightonLine/DCP_0511a
---Brian
www.railfanwindow.com
Gorgeous! That view for a good part of the run up the line northbound was one of the delights of working the Brighton. Thanks for whipping that one out!
It would not surprise me if I rode with you as a kid on the Brighton. We used to board an M at Avenue U, go one stop to Kings Highway and catch the D express. It used to tick me off when we had to travel to Nassau St because we needed the M train. I couldn't reach the railfan window of an R27/30 or R32 for that matter. The D at the time was a majority of R42's, R40M's, an occassional R40 slant which was very, very rare, and an occasional R32. D train was my favorite until the TA started skip-stop service, eliminated the M, and until 2001, turned the mighty into a lowly local. Sorry, but the love of the D train had moved to the lovable 6 train. Used to love the 4, but when full width cabs were introduced on the R62, the 6 was the last East Side line with R62A's that still had railfan windows and my favorite R36 main line and WF cars.
If you don't mind mentioning, what was the time period you spent on the Brighton if unless you still run there?
I worked the TA for less than a year in 1970 and 1971 ... if you rode with me though, it was usually R1/9's I ran, an occasional 32. The "new cars" with air conditioning usually ran with more senior people, some of which would take a shoe paddle to ya if you even SUGGESTED that they'd have to step off a 42 for YOU. :)
I guess maybe not, then. I was an early 80's rider, born in 1977. Even though I live among the tunnels of the Lex local now, the Brighton line will always be my home.
It always was a wonderful line to work ... despite the leaves, despite the snow, despite the ice, despite the tickly ground currents in Coney yard, despite management. :)
Nothing else in the world like it, and that photo of the Empire State building up the line brought it all back. LOVED working it.
It would not surprise me if I rode with you as a kid on the Brighton. We used to board an M at Avenue U, go one stop to Kings Highway and catch the D express. It used to tick me off when we had to travel to Nassau St because we needed the M train. I couldn't reach the railfan window of an R27/30 or R32 for that matter. The D at the time was a majority of R42's, R40M's, an occassional R40 slant which was very, very rare, and an occasional R32. D train was my favorite until the TA started skip-stop service, eliminated the M, and until 2001, turned the mighty into a lowly local. Sorry, but the love of the D train had moved to the lovable 6 train. Used to love the 4, but when full width cabs were introduced on the R62, the 6 was the last East Side line with R62A's that still had railfan windows and my favorite R36 main line and WF cars.
If you don't mind mentioning, what was the time period you spent on the Brighton if unless you still run there?
That's a great picture. I just right clicked it and made it my wallpaper!!!
Another reason (one of thousands by the way) why the Brighton Line is the best line (I must admit, I left out the Rockaway Line, the best line for Railfanning) in the world.
Hey Fred can you get a view of the Empire State Building like that on the line you worship the most?
I'm sorry Mr. Newkirk for responding so late, I just saw this posting. I and all the Subtalkers who worship OUR line (#1`Brighton Exp. Bob, Flatbush41, David J. Greenberger, Q Brightliner and anyone else I may left out, you are included too.) tip our hats to you for bringing such a wonderful point out.
I also remember not too long ago, when I was riding Fred's line (forgot the name of his line already), over the Manhattan Bridge, when we were racing side by side with a D Brighton. It would be fun to see who ends up at Dekalb first.
It was great seeing Hey Paul this AM as my wife and I got on a 68 (wife wants a seat so when traveling with her no rail fan window on the slant).
The load was light, I guess the storm scared everyone away. So light that we were HOT and were Gapped at Prospect Park.
Good luck with the pix Paul, its a great idea capture the arching!!
I assume Paul was on his trusty two-wheeler? Incredible how he recovered so quickly from Saturday's adventures in the BMTman's realm.
Cool stuff. But I think you really need to get a digital camera to properly capture what you are after. The photos will be 1000% better.
---Brian
If you mean an ordinary digital camera, I don't think that would do what I want. I'm taping it on a nondigital camcorder and transferring it to VHS tape. Then I play it back at slow speed and just hit the freeze on the WEBTV unit. I'm as much interested in the before and after periods of the arc and not totally interested in just taking a picture of the arc. It would be hard to capture the subtleties of the arc with a still camera.
If you meant a digital camcorder, then I would have to buy a computer to play around with it. I'm content with my current low cost relatively low tech approach.
Now, where else than Subtalk would we get to look DOWN at the fireworks and go "OOOOOOOOOH" ?
No question about it - we've gotta get you up to Concourse Yahd so you can observe the "Beeg bugs" providing light shows on demand. All we need is a volunteer to pull back the end guard and make contact with carbodsky. :)
Paul, not to nit-pick but your terminology is technically incorrect. Cars on the Q line do not have current collectors. All IND/BMT cars except for the R-110B and R-143 use shoe beams - not current collectors. R-46s originally had current collectors when they were equipped with the Rockwell trucks. Just thought you'd like to keep your temnimology Straight.
You've piqued my own curiosity here - I always thought the terms were interchangeable. What's the difference between the two? Any drawings available anywhere?
Well, Unca Kev there IS a BIG difference...a current collector only does so currently...all others would be shoe beams since they can collect in the past or the future...just thought I'd clear that up ol' buddy :)
Heh. Heypaul's over at your house, isn't he? Hey! Want some SNOW? :)
Shoe beams and current collectors both serve the same purpose, to pick up traction power from the 3rd rail and deliver it to the car. Both use contact shoes for this purpose and (in the case of NYCT) all four shoes are connected to a common trolley lead for this purpose.
The differences are technical but from a layman's point of view:
Traditional shoe beams are made of hardwood (usually kiln-dried maple) while current collectors are traditionally made of fiberglass. (NYCT has experimented with fiberglass shoebeams but has subsequently found it to problematic)
While the current collector is rigidly mounted to the truck, the shoe beam 'floats' between flexible gibbs at either end of the truck.
I also believe that current collectors utilize a cartridge fuse whereas the shoebeam uses the more traditional copper fuse-buss (although this may not be universally true).
Got it ... I was under the impression from what I read Heypaul's meaning to be and what you added that somehow the pickup slider itself had a signicant design change of that familiar old D-shaped show on the spring in contact with the rail - the difference is really in how it's mounted on the truck rather than the shape and function of the sliding pickup that rides the rail. I thought maybe "current collector" had changed to something like a fuller brush or something significant there.
But I see the differences now. THANKS! (and yeah, if only folks realized just how MUCH we trust wood with electrons, and why it actually wasn't such a bad idea)
So last night on my way home its raining. I check my wallet, figured I'd have to take a cab (not oging to walk 15 minutes in the rain). Empty.
Then it hits me... a great service to the customers of NYCT, and a new way to make some much needed (supposedly) money would be to put ATM's in select stations near the token booth or MVMs. Most corner stores ahve them these days, so they have to make some money for the owner, right? And think of that on a large scale like the subway where you have millions coming through.
You can put them in shopping districts or at major transfer points this way the customer doesn't have to leave the system, especially if they need that money and can't take the chance of missing their train (that was my concern, get off the 2 at Park Place and go upstairs, hit the ATM, and in that time the A came and left and I had to wait 15-20 minutes late night for the next one).
Does this sound like a feasible idea or am I off my rocker? :)
Just what we need, more machines that breakdown.
I don't know how much could be made, but one concern that comes to mind is the wiring needed for an ATM. Presumably you'd need both electricity and phone/computer connections -- are those as available in the system as they would need to be?
On the other hand, perhaps this issues has been addressed with the installation of the MVM's?
CG
Now the last thing we DON'T need are more opportunites for scam artists to jam ATM machines at unmanned (no station agent on duty) entrances. NYCT has done very little to stop this practice with the MVM's, why should they worry about ATM's?
The best way to go about this is to contract out the ATM's to private operators such as "AXIS". AXIS is an operator of store at,'s which charges $0.99 a transaction for cash. The ATM's could also sell metrocards of the pre-configured $6, $15 variety sold at stores and newsstands to augment the MVM's in station.
The MTA is in the business of moving people from Point A to Point B. The MTA has enough trouble keeping change in thier ATM's
The idea is a very good one though. It would work best in manhattan and a few other high income areas in the 5 bouroughs. It is a good way to make some extra money. In addition the ATM company is required to provide security such as camera's at each machine. I think this could be a win win for both commuters and the MTA pockets
The best way to go about this is to contract out the ATM's to private operators such as "AXIS".
This is who does the grocery stores too. No one really operates their own ATM's except for perhaps banks (maybe they could even form an alliance with some bank), and even then maintenance &c is by an outside company. But even contracting it out they have to bring in some decent money for the sclient because then the corner stores wouldn't have them (money produced from sales when the person goes in wouldn't be enough I see many people who go into a store for the ATM and leave without buying anything).
There is more then enough money to go around. Small stores even duane reade's just started getting atm's a few years back. They made out before them, they can deal with the competition.
People often go to the nearest ATM. The private atm's really took off once the big banks in the city started charging usage fee's
This could be nice additional source of revenue for the MTA. Part of the money should be used to beef up fare control security.
Another idea to make money would be to bring in a newsstore chain such as hudson news or a 7/11 type national operation to operate more newstands in the system. The MTA should take this into concideration when renovating station putting a retail component in where possible.
Big stations such as 42nd street times square and 34th street (already has a newstand) would be prime targets. The well capitalized national chains have the money to build out nice locations and pay nice rents.
How about postage stamps too!
Better than that -
Bring back the gum machines, the candy machines and the soda machines!!!
Bring back the gum machines, the candy machines and the soda machines!!!
Now you are talking!
YES!
I remember the gum & candy machines, but were there soda machines too? Maybe I'm just having a senior moment but I don't remember them. I do remember a candy bar machine in the Roosevelt Av IND Station city bound platform that was once profitable for me. I pulled the coin release lever just for the hell of it while waiting for a train and a quarter came out. Pulled it again and another quarter. I got about $5 until it stopped. Everytime I went back to that station I tried that machine but unfortunately it was a one shot deal!!
>>> but were there soda machines too <<<
Yes. They were the type that dispensed a paper cup and then filled the cup (or splashed all over if the cup tipped). No bottles or cans.
Tom
Forgive my MNRR-centric ignorance (my Metrocard is on the back of my monthly pass and shows up in the mail). Don't the MVM's take debit cards? Since the ATM is presumably only for fares, doesn't the MVM do it all?
Forgive my MNRR-centric ignorance (my Metrocard is on the back of my monthly pass and shows up in the mail). Don't the MVM's take debit cards? Since the ATM is presumably only for fares, doesn't the MVM do it all?
MVM's do accept debit and Credit cards, but what brought about my suggestion is that there are times you may need money, for instance: it was raining, I needed a cab but had no money, and in Howard Beach at 11:30pm, there are no stores open - hell none in HB with ATMs anyway. So I'd have to get off where I knew there was an ATM forcing me to wait for a later train (at 20 minute headways, not a pleasing thought). And I'm sure I can't be the only one to ever face this problem.
The solution would be to allow cabs to accept credit and debit cards.
I believe they tried this already, but the implementation was crappy.
Implemented properly, the card would be swiped ENROUTE, before the destination, and sometime before the end, a person would choose a tip. Since the card was already authorized, the person can just walk out when the trip is over. No high speed link necessary.
The solution would be to allow cabs to accept credit and debit cards.
I believe they tried this already, but the implementation was crappy.
Yellow cabs, yes, but local services don't.
Actually, the better way to do this is to bring back newsstands, geedunks and other merchants to the subway mezinines. Then you could put the moneycnagers on their premisis and let them manage it.
MTA *should* rent out most of its extra space.
Elias
Actually, the better way to do this is to bring back newsstands, geedunks and other merchants to the subway mezinines.
Geedunks?
Geedunks?
: )
So, you were not in the Navy?
A place where sailors can buy pogybait (also known as geedunk)...
Kindofa seagoing soda fountain.
I remember when there were Neediks in the subways... Those were good hot dogs! Lexington and 59th had a shop that made donuts right there while you watched, a bag of fresh hot donuts for about a buck and a quarter.
And... they all paid rent!
Elias
The MTA needs to do a better job of creating and utilizing it's real estate. I love the newstand thats is in a former bathroom on one of the local stops I believe on the lex
The MTA is better off with natioal chains like 7/11 or hudson news who can afford higher rents.
An ATM in the subway system is very risky & I'm not so sure that would be such a good idea but it would help bring in revenue for the MTA's budget gap[whatever that is!] so I'm mixed on that issue.
["Does this sound like a feasible idea or am I off my rocker?"]
BOTH!!!
Nah, just kidding. It was just too much of a straight line! As far as ATM's in the subway, I think its a great idea. There can never be enough ATM's. I still don't know how we did it in the old days. I remember having two savings accounts. One at the bank near my house and another near my job as I always seemed to be working during banking hours. And when we went on trips, we had to get about $1,000 in traveller's checks to be on the safe side.
My big complaint with ATM's are the stupid charges if it ain't your bank. I refuse to use any other ATM if there is a branch of my bank anywhere in the area. My wife, on the other hand, who will never think of paying a $1.50 bus fare to go two blocks, will pay $1.50 to an ATM in the supermarket when there is a branch of our bank two blocks away. And then even your own bank will charge you if you want to withdraw using a credit card even if you have an account. But its all worth it 'cause they are giving you up to 1% interest on your savings these days!
On Train-Sim.com (files for MSTS), there is a file for a MBTA Type 6, cab view and exteriors.
What is a Type-6? I've heard of type 5, 7 and 8, but never 6.
There is a German GT6 that LRV in BVE.
So Unca Lou ... oh mighty motorman of yore ... you *like* BVE? We got us a genuine addiction going there yet? Heh.
Off to bed, too much toying with the Canarsie line. What can I say? 60 inches of snow so far (all storms since Kissmoose combined) and NOWHERE to go - gotta sack out at work, since there won't be any "home" for days ... gotta LOVE Brunoland ... baseball stadium, but no damned PLOWS ... :)
Wasn't the MBTA Type 6 going to be the 1970's streetcar that was eventually superseded by the Boeing LRV? Seashore has a mockup of the front end of such a creature - apparently MBTA was going to design its own PCC replacement a la its earlier semi's, but the draw of Federal funding attached to the Boeing LRV project squashed that. The front end mockup was as far as it got, IIRC.
Frank Hicks
I was with a friend yesterday and we walked by the Transit Shop in Penn. station, Newark, and they had a sign out saying that they were going to close on January 31st and they had 50% price reductions in effect.
Naturally, we went inside and I managed to snare two Corgi models of Septa PCCs (2800 and the GOH car, 2134) for a very reasonable $54 US for both of them.
If you want to go, I'd advise going soon because they probably won't have much left by the end of next week and all the good stuff will be bought sooner.
Happy hunting!
-Robert King
Robert,
Scroll down a bit. This was discussed in length - twice.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=428447
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=428442
Found this posting in the Strappies Group:
http://www.straphangers.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=000343
"Was riding home on our beloved Q the other night, and some hoes where offering BJs to anyone who would pay them 100 bucks each. I was on the floor laughin at this!!! They did get some guys into it - they went into the conductors empty mid-train cabin and got busy!!! "
And here we are always commenting on preachers, beggars , battery sellers.
Found this posting in the Strappies Group:
http://www.straphangers.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=000343
"Was riding home on our beloved Q the other night, and some hoes where offering BJs to anyone who would pay them 100 bucks each. I was on the floor laughin at this!!! They did get some guys into it - they went into the conductors empty mid-train cabin and got busy!!! "
Hoes? You mean those things you use for digging in the garden? As for BJs ... guess that must be a reference to that big store chain, you know, the one like Costco.
Directions to Broadway Junction? :)
Yeah, that must have been it. A couple of urban farmers looking for the MetroCard transfer to their turnip truck.
:0)
if you want a hoe you should go to home depot rather than bjs.
That's great. Both stores are at either ends of the Gateway Center in Brooklyn. That Home Depot also has the outdoor garden supplies thingy.
Frank's too!
No, Peter the OTHER meaning of BJ & meaning of hoes, I won't elaborate since you should know what were saying here ;-).
Whoa! You took him seriously?
It's SubTALK, brah... we know.
Well, while I wouldn't be surprised if this was true, I'd take anything that comes from the Rider Diaries with a whole canister of Morton Salt.
However, if true, it would have to be pretty desperate dudes to spend $100.00 for a subway BJ. How degrading is that - and I mean for the guy who "ordered" it. Forget about the sl*t's offering it.
This is strange, I do notice QUITE a few C/R cab doors open on the slant R40's while I ride the Q express line. It's 8 minutes from Canal Street over the bridge to Dekalb, so why would any sicko want to pay $100 for that time?
Any high class call girl charging you upwards of $100 should at least offer a hotel room and free condoms...
Flavor condoms to be extra special ;-). Nah, they'd go for a MOTEL before a hotel, lets be logical Ron even you know they won't go to a hotel. Please, why would someone pay $100 to go in a conductor's cab when they could get it for free just as easily :-\.
Free...
You get what you pay for...
:0)
Exactly..... that would be real funny if they aren't "satisfied" :o)
"Please, why would someone pay $100 to go in a conductor's cab when they could get it for free just as easily :-\. "
You can get into the conductors cab for free?!
>>> Any high class call girl charging you upwards of $100 <<<
A high class call girl would be charging WAAAY upwards of $100.00. :-)
Tom
Guess they must be beginners and/or trying to get as much cash as quickly as possible ;-).
Or the high class call girl is running a subway special.
Yeah, I know probably a post holiday discount :o).
Maybe working up to a Valantine's Day Blow-out. Sorry about the pun.
No pun intended. Ha, they could make some mean cash on Valentine's day especially when some folks would be heartborken by those who dumped them or whatever the reason and would like some "pleasure".
Guess they must be beginners
Something quite MYSTICAL about the area they chose to cater to..
(no pun).. It being a slant car, I wouldn't put it past one
of US to hop between cars and start clicking and photographing
into the C/R wiper window...
Kool-D mentioned that there were some opened cab doors on the R40 Slants. This brings up the next point.
Several months ago, I boarded R40 Slant #4397. It was a diamond Q. Now, the C/R cab door was mysteriously opened. I saw the door controls and the yellow wood paddle. This was actually the second time I saw this cab door open. Perhaps someone hasn't gotten around to closing up this door?
Anyone have seen #4397 as of late? If so, was the C/R cab door still open?
Lets just hope the homeless don't start getting a hold of switch keys.
One Hundred Dollars???
Who were these girls, super models?? I mean, $100 seems kinda high, doesn't it? Especially in the subway.
Obviously we have "inflation." :)
Inflation of money or of "something else"?
I'd need some pictures to help decide. Where's all of our avid shutterbugs for *THIS* story? :)
Probably waiting for the train to arrive. 8-)~
Its inflation of doing sexual favors for money, go back to the first post and you'll see.
Condoms :)
--Mark
>>> Who were these girls, super models?? I mean, $100 seems kinda high, <<<
Damn!! Cops are always looking for the blue discount. :-)
Tom
Damn right!!!
Ha! Now that is some funny, crazy shit, girls giving head on the train on my Q line >:-o. Seriously, anyone who pays $100 to get some head in the train you could tell doesn't get too much from girls at all and are desprate and sexually frustrated, only in NY do these things happen :-\.
The thing is, I lived in Los Angeles for 16 years. Couldn't afford a car, wasn't a football hero, didn't own a surfboard. I couldn't get a girlfriend if my life depended on it.
Moved to the East Coast and all of a sudden I didn't have as much of a problem anymore
Well, it the TA were to organize this, the deficit would be wiped out in a week and "customers" would no longer be whining about their trains being late. After all, New York State has "Lotto" and is opening gambling parlors throughout the state to get rid of that pesky deficit. Won't be long before they start opening a chain of "Joe Bruno Crack Houses" up and down the Thruway, so why not? :)
Was it the LEAD CAR by any chance?
They could increase tourism by legalizing casino gambling, prostitution and marijuana.
I've always thought that keeping those things illegal is as ridiculous an effort at legislated morality as prohibition.
Casino gambling is upstate's *ONLY* industry. You can't go 50 miles upstate without getting lassooed by some natives, and of course Saratoga (which is getting a new Joe B Train station) is horsieland. There's hookers, but they're long in the tooth and short in the can. NYC gets the better hookers. Marijuana ... I remember that stuff. Also damned hard to find upstate, last time I saw a doobie was about ten years ago.
At the rate we're going though, I can see Paturkey and Bruno at a ribbon cutting for crack houses up and down the Thruway.
Marijuana ... I remember that stuff. Also damned hard to find upstate, last time I saw a doobie was about ten years ago.
I thought Upstate was crystal meth territory. Maybe Hillbilly Heroin too.
Heh. Ya never know ... but somehow I suspect they're smoking that stuff over at the capitol ... :)
Hey Mayor Bloomberg admitted to smoking marijuana(weed) And George Dubya admitted to being a drinker in his younger days so it wouldn't be such a surprise to see politcians smoking or drinking alcohol or other drugs. All this stuff making me want to get high[j/k] :o).
I'm sure Bloomberg's willing to take it up again, wondering what he was smoking when he ran for office in the first place. As to our Shrub, when you get into the oval office, there's even BETTER drugs than you can get on the street. Yeah, like I believe he knocked himself out cold falling down eating pretzels. Uh-huh. :)
But let's be real - listen to a politician and you KNOW they won't pass any whiz-test ... that's why they don't TAKE them. I for one would LIKE to know what they're smoking. Light that sh... smoke that sh... PASS that sh...
Bloomy probably lights his joints in bars and wherever else he barred smoking so the lwa is exempt to him[of course it is he's the mayor]. As for Dubya passing out on pretzels, pretzel my ass he probably got knocked out from drinking those 40's WITH those pretzels 8-).
Also damned hard to find upstate, last time I saw a doobie was about ten years ago.
Wait till you see me!
---BMdoobieW
We'll dispatch some snow dogs. :)
Was it the LEAD CAR by any chance?
No, but evidently it _was_ the HEAD car.
Ooo! Oww! The possibilities of compressor plumbing gags has caused a halon dump in the tower. Everybody run for your lives! :)
Just don't look at the gas.
Deuce! Dewd! I'se disappointed! No mention of "so good, she's able to reduce pipe pressure by forty pounds without kicking in the compressor?" I'm ... well ... frankly disappointed in ya. This is SUBTALK, dammit! :)
I suppose the price was slightly inflated because they had a luxurious transverse cab to offer. If it were a smaller cab (perhaps an R-9) the price might have been significantly discounted.
Is the transverse cab floor padded? ....Sure them cars look like armadillos
and may be HARD on the eyes.... but... gotta be easy on the
knees, knowhaimean?
No, in every civil service title, KNEE PADS are required safety equipment. I'll bet them chix with ... ummm ... nevermind ... have a bargaining unit ...
Inquiring mimes knead to no ... were the hookers wearing orange vests? Did they have a functioning flashlight and blue card? :)
"hookers wearing orange vests"
I can almost imagine a TA fantasy.
Where do you put the MetroCards when the lady wit the orange vest comes over and flips it up at you?
I could think of 2 places on her where you can swipe the card. One place you definately have to use a cleaning card first.
A disposable card would be best for that situation :-).
Nah, I think that would be the rubber conductor's outfit. We've definitely got the makings of a movie here somewhere. :)
It's an amusing story. Of course, it almost certainly isn't true.
If enough people talk about it in here, it might become an urban legend.
Good point ... now ... about that 76th Street station. :)
That's why 76th has been kept such a secret. $100 admission to the 76th Street station.
That's not terribly far for $100 ... for $100, I'd expect to go at LEAST halfway around the ... ummm ... nevermind. :)
I wasn't planning on bring that up again. But since you've asked, read this for a while.
http://www.dresden-neustadt.com/hosting/beefland/newyork/images/euclid.gif
See even a thread about BJ's can turn into a thread about 76th Street Station!
See Chris, isn't that amazing that on some threads SOMEHOW the 76 St myth works its way into something that is a fluu 360 degrees from the original topic, now what another 76 St thread?! Let me NOT say anymore about you know what :-x.
Sculley and Muldaur DIED for 76th Street ... it's every subtalker's SWORN DUTY to keep the X276 files open!
Selkirk brought it up. I was going to let it stay where it was.
See Chris, isn't that amazing that on some threads SOMEHOW the 76 St myth works its way into something that is a fluu 360 degrees from the original topic
360° is a full circle, anything is 360° away from itself.
You must be thinking of 180°.
Yeah, that's what I meant :o).
That's 360° from what you meant!
Seems like if we go 180 or 360 or 98.7 degrees, it'll always come back to 76 Street. And I haven't brought it back.
No no no no no no no no ... I'm MUCH better now. :)
Ahh Selkirk, did you really have to bring that up again :-].
But of course! Besides the "rat hole Montague St Tunnel," "Kill that freaking V train" and "Tear down X elevated structure", what ELSE is there to talk about here once we get tired of cab blessings and whizzing on the third rail? :)
All the more reason to come up with something more original.
That's why I leaped into this one ... at least it's a new concept. :)
Daresay, the price becomes $250 if the C/R happens to come back
to position and/or summon police to meet the train at DeKalb..
Allan,
I personally hated it.
Repeating this trash is not worthy of you! Even if it happened.
Remembering that you have both ladies and kids on this board, I hope
you don't dish this kind of dirt anymore.
Thanks,
Subway grrl
Remembering that you have both ladies and kids on this board, I hope
you don't dish this kind of dirt anymore.
Why are ladies and kids entitled to have material intended for them censored, while everyone else has freedom of information?
You are to be commended for reminding all of us to be cognizant of what we post (and of course I contributed to this thread, so mea culpa).
However, a wide range of subjects is actually discussed here very often, and some of these include topics which are more appropriate for adults. To completely censor this would be very difficult.
Some of the material is, I agree, gratuitous.
What are your thoughts about rating posts on the board (or other controls)?
Nothing bad was said, and I really think the thread had a lot of comedy in it. Why be serious all the time? Most people only used abbreviations and no one got vulgar. If kids know what the abbreviations mean, they already know about the actions mentioned, and there is nothing in this thread that they don't know about already. If they don't know what it means, it went over their head anyway.
I found it funny.
>>> What are your thoughts about rating posts on the board <<<
My thoughts on this particular thread are that it should have ended after no more than ten humorous comments. That it has gone on so long is an indication of the sophomoric level that the board has fallen to. It is becoming difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. How does one go about rating a post as "not worth reading"? Will school holidays never end?
Tom
How does one go about rating a post as "not worth reading"?
On the Airliners.net message boards, readers can vote for a one- to five-star ranking for threads, although a majority of threads don't get ranked.
Have you got PROFF?
I knew someone was going to bring that word up sooner or later :-\.
You certainly have a right to your opinion but frankly, at my age, I'd rather not have anyone censor what I might read. If you are offended - disregard the thread. If children are endangered by it, then they are too young to be on the internet, unsupervised. What we really do not need here is another member of the thought police.
Remembering that you have both ladies and kids on this board, I hope you don't dish this kind of dirt anymore.
Hey, if the whole story is to be believed, it was two persons of the female persuasion who were offering Hoover jobs on the train!
Well I participated in this thread so I should be ashamed of myself ;-). All jokes aside, it was funny to me & besides, there may have been kids who participated in this thread as well and plus young kids know about this stuff so young nowadays. I understand you don't want this type of stuff posted here but we didn't say words which would "give it away" and we kept it rather 'clean' and it gives us some comic relief 8-).
Here is a shot from the Bombardier Web Site:
Pretty sharp... Hopefully these will fare better than some of Bombardier's other recent projects in the area (Acela Express, R142).
A couple questions for those in the know:
1) Are those actual MU's or merely cab cars for push-pull operation?
2) What line(s) will they be operating on?
3) When are they scheduled to be put into revenue service?
Thanks in advance...
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
These are not MUs. They are loco-hauled push-pull coaches that can be used behind a diesel or electric loco, and presumably could run on all NJT lines, but most likely to/from NY Penn to take advantage of the high seating capacity.
I do hope that Conbardier realizes that NJT is not LIRR, and is not all High Platform. What is wrong with them? Do they think all the northeast is high platform, have they only ridden the NEC (even then the Septa portion should have made it overwhelmingly clear that it is not all High Platform even on the NEC). Perhaps they see low platforms as a foothold for the Talgo, which is so far the only equipment capable of level boarding at low platforms, or even maybe Bombardier is allergic to low platforms? Is suppose we'll see, it would be mildly amusing if these were built all high platform and sent down the NEC under the understanding that it was all-high platform, only to pull into Jersey Ave!
As a side note, looks like these will suck for unloading, just three or four small doors per side, ridiculous! I just hope I never have to work my way off at Metropark, Summit or PJ with all the other commuters trying to squeeze through the doors.
The bi-levels are going to be used in NEC trains, which is all hi-level. I lot of people are bitching that NJT should focus on a larger number of single level cars instead of fancy pants bi-levels that only seat a marginally higher amount of people.
Personally I think they should ditch bathrooms from corridor trains or at least have like 2 marked bathroom cars.
Yes, but the NEC isn't all High Platform! Jersey Ave is Low Platform! So what is NJT gonna do, ask those customers to jump? All because Conbardier has a fear of Low Platforms? How come MARC can get good quality Dual platform Bilevels from Kawasaki and NJT is stuck with the Acela-Sausage-makers themselves?
They Should be trying to serve more of their people! If you're gonna operate a Dual Platform system, you'd sure as hell better make sure that your fleet is gonna handle both. If you have old equipment, like the oldest Comet Is, and those can't go to High Platforms, that's understandable, not much you can do there other than try to upgrade as soon as possible. But to buy new cars that are restricted to high platforms is insane. It has occured to them that these cars cannot be used into hoboken, right? Why the heck did they increase the clearance in the Bergen Tunnels if they're not gonna get BiLevels? What happens when there is a screwup at Sunnyside or the MMC and a Bilevel set gets sent out on a MidTown Direct to Gladstone? Will "Passengers exiting at XXXXX need to jump" be included in the automated announcements?
And once again, I'll mention the doors, not only are you being screwwed into one route, and then you have to skip a stop on that route, but you have about the same passenger flow as a car now on a low platform. This is so incredibly asinine it isn't funny, although I suppose it's possibly the first true sign that Warrington, the father of Acela himself is president of NJT.
All of this and a train gains what? 10-20 seats at most over a comet V or lower set? Now I know why nobody seems to be too hot for BiLevels, this is just stupidity at it's worst!
Who said the cars were only high level? That picture is just an idea of what they will actually look like. The trainsets will accomodate high and low level platforms, HOWEVER- as of now, the plan is for the bilevels to be used PRIMARILY on the NY - Trenton clocker trains (when NJT takes over in 2005-2006). Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they'll operate to Long Branch and maybe Dover. But they are being built specifically for the NEC.
Yes, but the NEC isn't all High Platform! Jersey Ave is Low Platform!
But by the time these cars enter service it will be... Jersey Avenue is scheduled for conversion to high platform, with work starting later this year.
They won't be used on the NJCL, however; the last station there scheduled for conversion to high platform, Hazlet, is getting its makeover now. There are too many issues with the remaining stations on the electrified portion of the NJCL (grade crossings with no good alternatives at Little Silver and Red Bank, general station layout at Perth Amboy and South Amboy [which also has the grade crossing issue, but there are alternatives at that location], and limited seasonal usage at Monmouth Park) to convert them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
South Amboy will become high-level with major crossing improvements and parking garage within next 2 years.
Peter the Pole
OK, good news, I didn't realize they had been able to address the issues there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A Woman's death last year while crossing the tracks gave this project priority,
http://www.njtransit.com/an_capitalprojects_project044.shtm
Thanks, Tom. I note that the NJT website also indicates a high-level project for Red Bank; however, this will be extremely difficult to do for a couple of reasons: first, the station itself is on the National Register of Historic Places, and second, the entire area is a historic district. The station does have high blocks for ADA compliance (which are used, albeit infrequently) and the existing low platforms have only recently been renovated and extended, including the closing of one street. Putting high platforms in place without violating the historic setting of the station would require closing at least one additional street, the taking of one building, and the elimination of some parking (already in short supply there). I don't see it happening.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Personally I think they should ditch bathrooms from corridor trains..."
Where are the fare beaters going to hide? Or where are the drug addicts going to consume their stuff? Come on now...
Federal law stipulates bathrooms to be there if trip is one hour or more.
You know that gap between the cars...
Anyway, NJT could just pull a "SEPTA" and split the route into two. Example, Trenton to Rahway train #345 and Rahway to Penn train #346.
Is that the stipulation? I heard that if any of an agency's routes is 50 miles or longer, a bathroom has to be available. I heard that is why SEPTA's commuter equipment does not have bathrooms. I believe SEPTA falls into either category anyway, I'm not 100% sure, though.
Even though SEPTA's trains run through Center City between two outlying terminals (like Doylestown to Thorndale is like 70 miles), the train "changes" when it gets to Suburban Station. So even thought its the same cars w/ the same passengers, its a new train. That's probably why they preform crew changes there.
So, the bathrooms are really for the crews, and not for the passengers?
SEPTA trains have no bathrooms.
I know. I was just saying that the reason SEPTA cars do not have bathrooms is because no CREWS are on the equipment more than 50 miles or one hour's worth, according to your post on how they change crews in Center City.
Choosing them is like a disaster just waiting to happen.
This is going to be such a waste.
If I'm looking at the picture correctly, the doors are positioned right over the trucks. Are they going to be able to get a set of stairs there for the lower level platform?
I'd just love to see these things load and unload at Newark, Metropark, New Brunswick. Add at least 5 to 10 minutes to a trip down to Trenton.
I think it's about time for NJT to start eliminating low platforms.
It would be nice at Jersey Avenue, and along the M&E.
When I lived in Kansas City in 1998 for 4 months, there was a proposal of a commuter train linking Olathe Kansas to KC Union Station using BNSF tracks that parallel I-35. Does anyone know about the progress? Maybe RonInBayside might know if he already has moved to KC. I am aware that the proposal for LRT has been defeated in past elections.
A tax to pay for LRT went down in flames...
I've heard about the KC-Olathe line. Don't know its status.
That line would be useful to me - I have a part-time job offer out there...
Ron,
Did you have a chance to eat at Hereford House and Arthur Bryant's Barbeque yet? Overland Park has several excellent restaurants. Also, if you enjoy beer, Boulevard Wheat Beer is a excellent locally brewed beer.
Thanks for the tps.
No, I haven't had a chance to visit Hereford House yet. I have eaten at Plaza III.
I'm i the Westport District, just off Broadway. Supermarket, restaurants, hardware store, drug store, Radio Shack, video store, Sonic Burger, all within walking distance. KU Medical Center is a mile away and you can get there on one bus (which runs every 20 minutes at rush hour and every 40-60 minutes otherwise).
I took a bus to meet my wife at MCI (Kansas City airport). The airport bus is "on demand" on the weekends with a bus trip arranged after you call in.
I rode bus #51 downtown for $1 (it was a half-length coach with 5 other passengers) , got a free transfer, and caught the I-29 Airport express (a converted shuttle van) which took me, its sole passenger, to the proper terminal. The driver didn't know where the airlines were, but the signs were good enough to follow.
If you have the weekend off, you may want to drive to St. Louis (less than 4 hours by car) and ride its Metrolink LRT. You will enjoy the line from Lambert Airport to Belleville, IL. The route from Bush Stadium to Laclede's Landing uses a former railway tunnel built in the late 1800s, and riding the bottom deck of Eads Bridge to Illinois is fantastic! And the journey to Belleville is like an old interurban, passing through several corn fields.
There are several great restaurants in Laclede's Landing, including an excellent microbrewery (forgot the name). Union Station has neat unique shops, including a model railroad hobby shop. Lotta Hotta inside Union Station has a great selection of hot pepper sauces (if you are into this).
Thank you. I am interested. Will do.
(
http://www.modot.state.mo.us/trans/ExecSum.pdf
Old story, old news. There's been talks for years about a high speed rail triangle connecting KC, St. Louis, and Chicago, but it'll never happen.
Seems that way.
KCATA is cutting back on certain bus routes to deal with budget problems.
I took the bus downtown today to find the driver examinatio station to get a handbook, and when I took a rush hour bus back, it had maybe 8 passengers on it total.
But, on a lighter note, I found the Hereford House (steak restaurant) mentioned by another Subtalker, at 20th and Main. I'll be back to visit it.
I am looking for some info on some of the interlocking names south of Philadelphia. These include BELL, LANDLITH, RAGAN, DAVIS and the post-Amtrak interlocking HOLLY. I am also assuming that the late BRILL interlocking was named for the also late J.G. Brill car company.
American and Pig and Myself are planning an LIRR trip this comming Wenesday, Jan 8th. I will be converging on Jamacia from Penn and Pigs will be comming from Flatbush. We plan to go to Mineola and then catch a train to Oyster Bay and back to Jamacia. We will then go to Long Beach, then a bus to Far Rock then a train back to Flatbush. From there we will take an N or R train to Manhattan to go and see the progress on the World Trade Pit (WTP). Depending on the time we will try to go uptown for food at the Hello Deli. I hope to get out on PATH or NJT before 5:30. The start time is ideally the first train to Mineola after 9 AM. We will be riding all M1's and getting an M7 will result in waiting for a later train. I need to take front door pictures of the PRR signals.
A LIAR trip? There had better be a GREAT story attached to this one. And I ain't buying "it was a typo" - the A key is nowhere near the R key. 8-)
Remember when I changed my name every few days?
Why not go to the Starbust Diner? It is relevant to the subways...(52nd and Bway, I believe).
That's the StarDust Diner - one of daughter's favorite restaurants.
A second set of M-7's went into revenue service this past Monday. From what I've been able to piece together, it is running mainly on the Hempstead branch -- but I haven't been able to nail down all the times yet. You might be able to substitute a Hempstead train for your Mineola run (the N40 and N41 busses run from Hempstead station up to Mineola about every 10 minutes, and it's a 15 minute ride).
A couple of other notes. I plotted out your trip itinerary using the LIRR and LI Bus schedules (I hope this doesn't ruin the spontenaity of the trip) and you'll arrive back in Flatbush at either 4:31 or 5:35 -- depending on whether or not you make a 3 minute connection at Jamaica when you're going from Oyster Bay to Long Beach.
A couple of ideas that might be worth considering. Start with the 9:33 Flatbush to Hempstead (9:38 from Penn with change at Jamaica). Who knows -- maybe this will be the M-7's? This train hits Hempstead at 10:28 which gives you enough time to take the N40/41 up to Mineola to catch that same first train to Oyster Bay.
Also, the N33 only runs hourly during the middle of the afternoon -- this adds about 40 minutes of standing around in Long Beach to your day. Having lived there for a year, it's a lot more fun to stand around Long Beach in the summer than it is in the winter (there are a few good lunch spots near the station, though).
Finally, your trip won't be all M-1/3's. The Oyster Bay trip will be bi-levels. But you knew that.
CG
What time does my train leave Penn? I hadn't actualy looked it up yet. Thanks for the info though. I might try going down to Far Rock first and then to Long Beach.
For Oyster Bay, the trains leave Penn at 8:35AM and then 10:28AM. The times I gave you before were based on the 10:28. If you took the 8:35 (8:36 from Flatbush) and followed the plan you laid out you'll get back to Flatbush at 3:28.
What are your priorities and time constraints for the day?
CG
I need to get on the pre-5:30 NJT super-express out of Penn Station. Any train after that and negotiating penn station is just a nightmare. You'll never catch me taking the 6:07 "Titanic" again. Grr, looks like I'll have to get up extra early to get to Penn by 8:35. Thanks again for your help and you are welcome to come along.
Thanks for the invite. Unfortunately, I've got to work Wednesday and have meetings which can't be moved.
We may have confirmation by Monday that the 2nd set of M-7's are running on the Far Rock line. If they are, you can start your trip off on the 9:06 Flatbush to Far Rock (9:16 connection from Penn) which looks like it's an M-7. Then go to Long Beach back to Jamaica then Oyster Bay and get back into Penn at 4:25. There are some long waits on that trip, but you would sample all of LIRR's equiptment in one day.
Looking forward to hearing about your travels. Enjoy.
CG
The Hempstead branch is definitely a nice scenic line going past the golf courses in Garden City Park and then the single track through Country Life Press. But if its speed you want, especially at the railfan window, NOTHING beats the Main Line between Jamaica & Mineola, especially if you get a train that skips New Hyde Pk & Merrillon Av.
Rumor has it that Salaam is flying in from the left coast to join you guys....he'll have his trademark vest and tripod...
sounds like a great trip out on the rails. Hope you all have a great time and the time tables are with you all the way. It has been 16 years since I rode the LIRR (LIAR) really miss the run under Atlantic av and hanging over Atlantic av to Nostrand Av. Have fun
John
How much is this trip gonna cost with all the LIRR tickets and stuff?
---Brian
I saw a very old, outdated ad yesterday on the Red line yesterday for the transit exhibit I somehow neglected to visit at the National Building Museum last summer. For those who have went, what was on display and was it worth it to go? Thanks.
GO TERPS!!!
Yes, I was there to see it. It was called "Transit and the American City". It was an array of photographs both past and present from all transit opertaions in the US, New York City included.
It focused on the early years through post war "highway boom" years and how transit was affected. Of course the present Ligh Rail rebirth was represented.
It was a very interesting and educational display. I'm glad I saw it, though I didn't really know it existed and accidentally stumbled on it while trying to find Metro headquarters in that neighborhood.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes! Is it still open? I thought it was scheduled to close around October or November of last year.
If it is still open and you go, tell me if you spot the IND sign with a caption claiming it's from c. 1900. I reported the error but I have a feeling the caption was never corrected.
I went to the exhibit and it was interesting. It wasn't out of this world, but I thought it was worth my time. (I went in June 2002)
---Brian
Greetings, and a Happy New Year fellow Transit Buffs. I'm planning a trip to London England in March, and aside from the Transport Museum, is there anyother Transit related sites that may be of intrest?
Thanks in advance.
plenty, hopefully Simon Billis will read this, he was a great guide to me when I went 1 1/2 years ago
Lots!
A good piece of advice is to go to:
http://www.metropla.net/eu/lon/london.htm
and start clicking the links...
http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/
is a good informative site, as is:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/7069/
Don't stop until you know exactly what "Fast Amersham" means ;-)
Oh, and this one's quite fun:
http://victorian.fortunecity.com/finsbury/254/
Hope you have a good time in London!
I'm going to be in London myself 27 Feb-5 March. If you are going to be there on Friday 28th February make sure you get to the Underground's Acton Works open house. (See the www.ltmuseum.co.uk London Transport Museum web site for details).
The MTH website is still saying that the R-12s will be shipping this month. All those that believe this, please raise your hands.
On the other hand, they have pushed back the R-17 workmotor until April 2003.
I heard they can't release the work motor because WABCO doesn't stock the brake parts anymore. Once they pull the 2CY off the 37371 and gut the car at Concourse, who knows.
Extensive scientific research has revealed that apparently MTH is actually located in an alternate time stream that is 24 to 48 months behind the one we are in. At MTH it is January 4, 1999, so everything is right on schedule. :)
All seriousness aside, the actual MTH problem is too many projects in the pipeline at the same time. Their sales department releases the scheduled release date because that's what they were given. The actual production of the item is anywhere from 24-48 months (on average) behind the scheduled release date.
On their 0 gauge streetcar line they have had a Baltimore Peter Witt scheduled for release sometime in 2000. A two man team spent 5 hours at BSM recording our witt, 6119, for the Proto-Sounds that will be included - in 1997!!! As of 2002 no MTH Baltmore Peter Witt has been seen. A Brill variety operates almost every weekend.
yesterday after school,i went to bway junction and got on the j,luckly
i got the railfanwindow to myself.the lead car was 4763,that car is
great,just the second it got right out of the station,it shot like a
cannon,real fast,rode home.what a ride,has anyone here got on that car
til next time
It all depends on the Motorman and alos depends on the Traction power of all the trainline traction motors.
-AcelaExpress2005
Who told you that, thats rediculous? There is no such thing as a trainline traction motor, traction motor power will not vary to the point a train will go faster than another, and motormen are stuck with whatever their consist will put out when they put the master controllers in multiple position. A train with dead motors will be sluggish at the starting gate over a train with all live motors. A good T/O will notch the controllers one point at a time to smooth out acceleration, but if a master contoller is run into third point after the doors have closed, his actions will not create a faster accelerating train. Jerky starts can be created with GE SCM cars, but not a faster takeoff.
That's what I meant, it depends on the Motorman, what position the throttle is in and depends on the entire train, not just car #4763.
-AcelaExpress2005
I had #4763 afew week ago on the J. It had dead moter at that time. The train must have had one more car with dear moter becouse it could not clime the WillyB to good.
Robert
What is GE SCM, anyway?
General
Electric
Simplified
Cam
Magnetic
(The controller, under the car. It controls propulsion and dynamic braking.)
David
i don,t remember what other cars were on that train,but i do know that
whae i was the train,sometimes the t/o would put the controller to max
after the door had closed,and other times,the t/o would put it to max
as the doors would close.the ar was sorrta bumppy on the willy B,but
it was a nice and fast ride too.
til next time
The R42's in general have good acceleration compared to other car classes like the R68's, the slowest starter in the whole system. Also it depends on the motorman/woman; the veterans tend to go faster than the newer T/O's but that's not always the case so it depends on the T/O.
Not much point to this but in clearing out some old records I found these few items that might be of interest.
Train Consists- NYCTA
BMT Division
Rt SS Franklin Av Shuttle February 1, 1971
Franklin Av-Prospect Park Service
R-11 8018
R-32 3856
R-32 3857
2nd train
R-11 8016
R-11 8019
R-11 8017
Train Consists- NYCTA
BMT Division
Rt S Franklin Av Shuttle
Franklin Av-Prospect Park Service March 1,1987
R-27 8113
R-30A 8408
R-27 8187
R-27 8236
Train Consist-NYCTA
IRT Division
Rt S 42 Street Shuttle
Times Square-Grand Central Service December 17,1986
Track 1
R-17 6627
R-17 6619
R-17 6699
Track 4
R-17 6624
R-17 6624
R-17 6579
Track 3 January 10,1987
R-17 6618
R-17 6616
R-17 6665
R-17 6620
Larry, RedbirdR33
R
Here's a few more shuttle consists:
Train Consists-NYCTA
IND Division
Rt H Rockaway Shuttle
Euclid Av-Rockaway Park Service April 15,1987
Train No 1
R-27 8188-8173-8137-8148-8151-8172-8194-8157
Train No 2
R-38 4054-4055-4074-4075-4030-4031-3982-3983
Train No 3
R-10 3173-3035-2974-3031-3191-3209-3263-3187
Larry, RedbirdR33
I have the proof!!!!!!!!!!
Spotted: 12/31 and 1/3 (I was sick!)
M-7s on the 11:09 out of BKLYN
returning on the 1:26. Not sure. Maybe it was the 10:09 and the 12:26. But they are HERE!!!!!!!
7020-7019-7018-7017-700x-700x
Thanks for the info. There was a second set of M-7's that went into service Monday.
From what I've been able to gather elsewhere they've been spotted as follows:
7:36 AM Hempstead to Flatbush (Arr 8:28)
gap -- then
3:32 PM Flatbush to Hempstead (Arr 4:27)
4:53 PM Hempstead to Flatbush (5:48)
6:14 PM Flatbush to Hempstead (7:04)
Unless what you saw is a third set going through testing (could you tell if it was in service or not?) then the gap may very well be filled by:
9:06 AM Flatbush to Far Rock (10:13)
10:26 AM Far Rock to Flatbush (11:28)
12:09 PM Flatbush to Far Rock (1:13)
1:26 PM Far Rock to Flatbush (2:28)
Anyone with other info?
CG
This is consistent with what LIRR said it was going to do.
I'll see if I can shift my break to around 10:30 and see if it passes by Lawrence monday...
The train was definately in service. I doubt wether the train is the earlier or later train, however, there is only ONE RUN of the train. I am almost certain now that the train was the 11:26 out of Far Rock, meaning that it was the 9:06. (There was 1 train before the M7)
Weekday schedule only. THIS IS A RVENUE TRAIN----------- 100% GUARENTEE!!
The train was definately in service. I doubt wether the train is the earlier or later train, however, there is only ONE RUN of the train. I am almost certain now that the train was the 11:26 out of Far Rock, meaning that it was the 9:06. (There was 1 train before the M7)
Weekday schedule only. THIS IS A RVENUE TRAIN----------- 100% GUARENTEE!!
Bring back the MP-54s!
Why?
Why not?
I dunno, why?
I think they were very handsome cars. I have always liked Tuscan Red with the gold (yellow) lettering and striping - the owl windows were real cool, too. It was great to ride thru the Penn Station tunnels with the windows open and the shades flapping. I seem to remember the catwalk being almost at window sill level. I liked - out in the open - peeking out the window - being carefull not to get too close to wayside obtructions - which were further away than they appeared. The moans and groans were great to hear as we picked up speed. The sectional rail also contributed its share. At speed the screaming motors let you know you were going somewhere fast. The overall experience was unforgetable. It was also a thrill to watch them fly by when you could stand near the right of way as a looong train ran by. ------- Bring 'em back!
I'd love to see them on an excursion, but in day to day service? No way! They weren't comfy, were slow as crap, and topped out at 50mph.
I shudder to think what the LIRR's ridership would be like if they kept buying MP-54 derivatives. The M-1's were really a big step up..
Hell with all the speed restrictions on the LIRR, I would say the MP-54 would fit right in at 50MPH. Hell I am too young to remeber them, but by the description I would love to ride them.
Frank D
Yeah but some of us want the LIRR to consistently run at 100mph (well, I do).
i was reading joe c's post: R42#4763,what a car. If i remember correctly, someone on this forum said jerky car starts in the NYC subway system was due to a car's inability to break the friction holding the car still on the tracks? Am i correct in remembering correctly or are there many other factors, cause the cars down here in the WMATA except for the 2000 series all have fairly smooth starts. thanks for reading.
GO TERPS!!!
Which other transit systems do this:
http://www.kcata.org/safe_place.html
NYCT has a homeless outreach program, and SEPTA works with city agencies, but this sounds interesting. It says 28 other trnsit properties do it, but which ones, I wonder.
I'll call and ask - but wante to post the link to the annoucement.
>>> It says 28 other trnsit properties do it, but which ones <<<
I saw the signs on buses of one of the local companies here in Southern California, but I do not remember which one.
Tom
My "source" reports that 7141-45 arrived on 12/31, while 7146-50 have also been shipped out from Plattsburgh and are in the city today (1/3).
-Stef
They made it just in time. Won't be anything moving south for a while. CSX' snowblower got stuck a bit south of here. Kissmoose Storm II ongoing up here. Snow's up to our roof now. Wowsers.
Either I didn't read my mail or my "source" was mistaken, but 7046-50 have arrived on the property as of tonight....
-Stef
There was a transfers from Lindon Yards to 234st Yard(I can not remeber the IRT yards they goto.) I left the yard at around 9:00pm. I could not get the number from my L train.
Robert
That transfer was late in getting up here. A massive signal failure on the 2/5 slowed things down for about 3-4 hours this evening. It seems that the signals on all tracks went to danger from Jackson Av up towards Simpson Street. It's no wonder they didn't stop service entirely!
-Stef
It was crazy on the #2/5 Line today. Everyone trying to Call Control at once.
Did control put up an answering machine? :)
I can hear the audio track now:
[r142 tone]announcement plays consistently to T/O
"Thank you for driving MTA..."
"We apologize for the delay"..
"Control is not Responding.. Please wait.."
"Thank you for driving MTA... you are currently 2 minutes
behind interval..."
"This is a Bronx bound 2 Express train, we apologize for the delay"
"Thank you for driving MTA... you are currently 6 minutes
behind interval..."
"Control is not Responding.."
"Thank you for driving MTA... you are currently subject to being
turned back at the next station.. Sorry, no lunch."
"This is a Bronx bound 2 Express train... the next and last stop is..
East 238th Street..."
I can see it now leave a message with your complete call letters, location and operating motor and will get back to your as soon as possable.
"Your train is IMPORTANT to us ... please leave your mic keyed down and remain on the horn for the next available TSS" ("raindrops keep falling on my head" melody with this message repeating every 15 seconds until track power goes down) ...
I was one of them. I was stuck btwn Mott and 3Av-149St for an hour. After the T/O on the 5 ahead of me and myself updated Control of how long we were stuck in the tunnel, they finally made some progress to move us up. Made a nice lil OT, though.............
I saw 7055 in service on the 5 a few days ago. Are these deliveries coming in order?
No. Cars are delivered at random, that is, whatever is ready to be released from the plant after all assembly work is done.
-Stef
I mentioned several months ago that a close friend of mine in Chicago, who happended to be a writer for the Chicago Tribune at the time (he's now an editor), did a Tempo story on "CTA Guy", the guy who does the cheery radio-announcer automated voice for the CTA trains. Part of the story involved CTA Guy and my friend Lou riding around on the system together, as this was the first time CTA Guy had actually ridden the CTA since doing the recordings. (In real life he's a professional broadcaster in Wisconsin.) After some time of riding around on the system, CTA Guy actually stood up in the center of the car and began announcing the stops with the exact same tone of voice that was being played by the train's automated announcement system. Needless to say, he got some very strange and bemused looks.
Here's where it gets funnier...
This afternoon I called my friend's house, and his answering machine picked up. The new outgoing message, spoken by a strangely familiar voice: "Your attention please. Lou and Amy have been delayed. We apologize for the inconvenience. They expect to be home shortly. Thank you for riding the CTA. This is Grand. Doors closing! [beep]"
Yes, my friend actually got CTA Guy to record the outgoing greeting for his answering machine. And he's not even a railfan. How many of you can claim to have the R142 Mr. Ed voice on your answering machines? The Mary Poppins voice on London's Jubilee Line? The Matrix agent from the MBTA's Red Line?
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
I can't make any of those claims, but I do believe it is time to change my recorded message and thank you for riding MTA New York City Transit :)
--Mark
Should I -
1) railfan
2) work on a certain old gal
3) takes the misses out
4) take some ritalin
5) go see the psychiatrist
6) all of the above
7) none of the above
Two weeks is a lot of time away from the booth!
-Stef
You can always come upstate and shovel snow. :)
Not exactly, but a friend has suggested he and I go on an excursion to Boston for a day to be announced. I can see the headlines now - NYCT Station Agent Invades The T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-Stef
I'd wait a couple of days. The radar tells me that they're starting to get what we've been getting - about 19 inches so far and it's gonna keep rocking and rolling until afternoon. I'd check to be sure there still IS a Boston before heading up there. And bring exact change, the TA will NOT accept "I didn't have a nickel to get off the train" as an excuse. :)
When are you going and where are you working. As a V/R I need some jobs to think of taking.
You're too late, unfortunately. I start vacation tomorrow. But to answer your question, I have 2 Lunch Jobs, 2 Lunch-Booth Jobs and 1 Straight Booth Job, mostly in upper Manhattan and the Bronx. This would be on the PMs with TW off.
The Straight Booth Job would take me to Herald Sq on Mondays.
-Stef
"Give my regards to Broadway!"
After you come back, that is!
LOL!
You're a good man.....
-Stef
Uniform Off.
Take a nice long, warm bath.... psst... you can even BRING
IN the missus if ye' wants... just remember she has a fine
coat of primer which is NOT to be fussed with...
;) :)
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Great idea!
-Stef
See Jeff and try to fix the end on the old gal that won't operate. He knows the details.
Whatever you do, enjoy.
I'll e-mail him during the week and see about going up next Saturday to address the problem on 6688.
-Stef
Daoh! SHE needs some of that fine Steffano lovin'
With this $800 + million dollar defecit, is there any chance the MTA would revert back to that state?
What defecit, I just heard tht the TA has a 630+ Million dollar serplus. It was found by the state controler after he made the TA open they books becouse of the proposed fair increases.
Robert
Besides ... reassembling all those R10's and getting them ready to clop-clop-clop down the track would take half of forever and be FAR more expensive than just doing the R160 order. :)
You bet it could happen. Remember, our politicians represent people who are moving out, and want to leave as little as possible behind for the rest of us then the go. Just debt and pension obligations.
Watch out for deferred maintenance like a hawk!
Hey! NOT a problem! First off, Joe Bruno has constituents whose trailers are getting DAMNED cold with the hundreds of thousands of jobs that have been lost upstate SINCE Mr. Paychex Inc failed to win governor (Golisano) ... things are literally a disaster upstate (I'm not even talking of the snow overnight which has eight trees in various degrees of penetration of our house right now - can't walk down a damned hall without a chainsaw in hand) ...
Joe Bruno has STUPIDSTEEL ... BOMBARDIER ... and heaven knows what OTHER "Me shine train now, bill state" operators who paid for Shrub all with their hands and tongues out, wearing their orange vests and knee pads ... if MTA lays off people, we've got Mexicans ready to go to work on carbodsky ... if AMTRAK wouldn't take the damned turbos, by gum, they'll run between Troy and Saratoga ... from Bruno to Bruno carrying the East Greenbush Yankees (or whatever our taxpayer supported ball club is called now) to whatever, rest assured Joe Bruno will grab a piece of it for his cronies.
Sorry for putting it that way ...
ATTEN-HUT! STATE OF THE STATE ADDRESS IS THIS COMING WEDNESDAY ... the "message" will be a forebearer of "The Governor's Budget Message" (along with release of the "Executive Budget - FY 2003/2004") is ONE WEEK FROM NOW ...
The Truth is OUT THERE ... and it's about to be revealed, and far gorier than even Unca Selkirk had predicted ... MASSIVE LAYOFFS ... stay tuned ... but take solace, all TWU members (and everyone else for that matter) ... Joe Bruno is about to start building a *NEW* Amtrak Station in Saratoga while everyone else gets to eat CAKE ...
KIRK',You are ever the statesman.....and you weren't the only one ''diggin out'' for the last week! Had to digg out of 4 feet of snow,plus what was plowed in front of my car and so on....
Heh. Yeah, we're completely scrood up here - so much snow and so many trees down, a PAYLOADER couldn't make it. Going to be an interesting week, that's for sure. And of course, it's snowing again. 67.5 inches so far, the average for a YEAR is 62 and it's only been "winter" for a couple of weeks. Agggh.
Mr. Honda's been running so much, the brushes are almost shot. I tell ya, I'm in no mood for the hijinx of our leaders at the moment.
>>> I'm in no mood for the hijinx of our leaders at the moment. <<<
There you go looking for a government hand out. A good staunch conservative would have his dog team already hitched to the sled, so money that could go to train stations would not have to be wasted on plowing roads. :-)
And after all you have said about Joe Bruno, you can expect the plows at your place just after Memorial Day. :-)
Tom
"And after all you have said about Joe Bruno, you can expect the plows at your place just after Memorial Day."
Or much sooner, if he's willing let them come full and dump their snow in his front yard.
:0)
They'd have to be able to GET here. :)
Most of the roads are still impassable around here, the power's been out for days in Voorheesville, Guilderland and Delmar, and there's trees down all over. CSX found out the hard way that blower trains can't get pine trees out of the way. It's actually pretty bad up here after that last ice storm (which brought down the trees) followed by 2-3 feet of snow that buried the hazards. Never seen anything like this and I've been upstate for a long, long time.
But if they can FIND the place, what's another 10-20 feet of snow at this point? As long as I can submit a bill. We'll call it the Joe Bruno Ski Trail! :)
Naa, after calling him Paturkey puppet and a gasbag and other names, he'll get his house cleaned up whenever the expected late budget Upstate gets submitted :o).
Nope, when you live upstate, you don't count on government to do ANYTHING ... you do for yourself. We DO get irked though when government comes around and then charges us for the work we ourselves DID.
Anyhoo ... reason I'm replying is "State of the State" is still going to be done this coming Wednesday, but surprise surprise! The "Executive Budget" has been postponed two weeks from the 15th to the 29th. I think you're on to something here - the budget will start OFF two weeks late! :)
You don't/can't count on government and politics in general ;-). Sheesh its bad enough the budget has been submitted well past the deadline for 18 years and counting but now the start of the Executive budget will start LATE TOO! No wonder we are laughing stock :-\.
Heh. Nah, the laughing stopped back when Padre Mario was supreme leader, and Joe Bruno polished Warren Anderson's shoes. The hard way. People (and business) have just walked away shaking their heads in disbelief. What's TRULY sad is that when the state was going whizzo-spiffo, these clowns STILL managed to rack up bills we couldn't pay and after 8 years of an "economy" have dick to show for all that money they threw away. But by God, they all got re-elected, so all this chicanery is ENDORSED by the voter.
Given how deadly silent and DARK it is upstate now, if there WERE any peasants bearing torches, we'd note the orange glow over the horizon. :\
Heh. Actually, being a true conservative, I'm not expecting government plows anywhere NEAR here ... I'm honked off that there's SO much snow that my PRIVATE SECTOR guy can't get his payloader up here. We've got nearly 7 FEET of snow. I own my OWN road up to here, it ain't some government highway. Every time it snows a normal snow, costs me $300 to open the road. Guy just got up here and presented me with a bill for $950.00 ... but I'm proud that once again, I managed to get MY road open before CSX got THEIRS open. :)
But yeah, perfectly willing to take my own responsibilities and hits. Just wish Bruno would stop tapping my wallet for more penises with his name on it. One gets a little honked off paying more than 50% of their income in property taxes and the OTHER half in other taxes that do little good up here. Now if they were willing to plow my road, or get me one of those $100 subway hookers, maybe I'd be a little cheerier. Heh.
We ain't got nothing like that down in NYC. The average snowfall is 62 inches, I seriously think its more like 70" you guys got hit with over 5 feet already! Winter usually start from late October for you guys & it don't end until April usually. And it may only get worse for you up there anoter snowstorm is supposed to hit our area in a few days so MORE snow is going your way.
Lets say grafiti ever makes a comeback on trains, imagine a R142 or R143 getting a whole car 'mural'. Who knows, maybe the R33/R36WF would get mothballed, kept as back up cars and be used in case of emergency ;-).
Y'know, there's precedent for this. In 1976, problems began developing with the then-new R-46's. the TA was forced to run its remaining R-1/9s (which it had already sold to the scrapper) for a year and a half, paying the scrapper all the while for the privilege. This is one reason a few old cars should be kept around as new orders come in.
I know, the R46's when they first came in were just a disaster; with the UNTESTED Rockwell trucks [which were sued and won over $100M putting rockwell out of business]; the only thing that was attractive was the # of door lights ;-). Back on topic, I assume most of the R4-R9's [R1's were retired already] were painted in the MTA blue/silver, the R16 was retired shortly after the remaining R4-R9's but got a second living when the R46's were just dismal in 1979 and were limited to rush hours at one point.
Some R21/R22's should have been GOH'ed like the R10's, it would of provided extra trains for the IRT but they thought it would be too costly to rehab all single units. Then when the R44's & R46's returned from the GOH in 1992-1993, the R30's were replaced, which led to the car shortage in the B division. Had the full R27/R30 fleet been fully overhauled and kept, it would STILL be running and even if they were forced to stay underground, let it be. It would of helped the A & C in particular today.
Actually many of the R-4/R-9 series went to scrap still wearing OD/black paint. For example R-9 1689 went to Branford never having been painted blue/silver. Also, it will be interesting to see the fate of the R-32/38 fleet when it comes up for retirement. Incidentally, I don't think the new R-142/143s will last 40 years in the system the way cars of the past did. They just don't make 'em that way anymore.:-)
I agree, the quality is not there nowadays. I made a prediction a while back that the R38's and R40's would be scrapped before the R32's and I'm going to stand by it, you guys quote it, keep it in file do whatever you want. The R38's with the brown "superglue" make them look like trash and the R40's with the "wonder tape" is basically holding the roofs up. On these models once they're gone, I will really miss the railfan windows, the frigid A/C [which my Q line happens to have R40's, the best A/C in the system; sorry wanted to squeeze that in there ;-)], the nice designs and the quality :-(. Yea, I like the R142's but I don't have as much love for them as the Redbirds, it just got a certain flavor that the technological revolution cars will never have; it will be sad when EVERY Redbird is retired from revenue service. I hope there is another Redbird trip in the future I will make sure I go.
ALL the older cars--especially the prewar cars of my youger days--have something the newer "revolution cars" will NEVER have: Character. The older cars were wonderfully theatrical in both appearance and operation, not sterile as the newer cars are. The old cars let you know you were on a TRAIN. The R-1/9's, for example, had pneumatic doors, wicker seats, open ceiling fans, and what I call R-1/9 oil--NOTHING in the world takes me back like that distinctive smell. Plus their unique-sounding motors.
No computers, prerecorded PA announcements, plastic or pretense. These were subway cars built to last 40-45 years. Most of them did. :-)
Very true! They did have character. Now they all look the same. I can extend that to the LIRR also. The new diesels have absolutely NO character. Something was lost when the old "wrecks" were removed (however necessary and overdue it was). The GP38's, MP15's, F Units, and the old coaches were a commuter's nightmare, but a railfans dream!
Now they all look the same.
That's a very bad double standard. All of the Redbirds look the same, and that's 5 separate car classes. And with minor modifications, that can be extended back to the R-16.
The R-142 and R-142A have far more differences than the R-26 and R-33 (and everything in between).
The R-1s through R-9s all looked the same too, but I'll let them off on that one. Those trains had character. I've never ridden them, but I've seen them and HEARD them (thanks to heypaul's tape).
They are MILES apart from the Redbirds. A Redbird is a school bus on rails.
American Pig:
Although they are not stainless steel, I consider the Redbirds as part of the modern cars. I actually think of the R10's-R14's with the modern cars. I think most railfans think of the difference of old and new as pre-war and post war. The Redbirds had modern sounds, public address systems, door controls in motorman's booths, hard fiberglass seats, flourescent lights, etc. As a matter of fact, when I started riding the trains solo in the mid to late sixties and rode many times just to railfan, I hated the IRT because except for Third Av in da Bronx, they had no old stuff left. The BMT and IND were great. You could ride wooden "G" cars on Myrtle, Standards on the Canarsie Line and the Franklin & Culver Shuttles, and Arnines abounded all over! The IRT was just too boring.
Did I say "G" cars on the Myrtle? I guess I wasn't completely awake yet! I meant "Q" cars!!!
Did I say "G" cars on the Myrtle? I guess I wasn't completely awake yet! I meant "Q" cars!!!
I agree with you, the Redbirds design for FIVE classes was basically the same[especially in the front] except for modifications to the sides but they lasted more years than anyone expected so there's the quality & character of the cars but the new cars do look similar as well. Actually, every car from the R15 to the R38 basically was the same design; of course there were different lengths on the cars [R16, R27/30, R32 & R38 were 60 footers].
ALL the older cars--especially the prewar cars of my youger days--have something the newer "revolution cars" will NEVER have: Character. The older cars were wonderfully theatrical in both appearance and operation, not sterile as the newer cars are. The old cars let you know you were on a TRAIN. The R-1/9's, for example, had pneumatic doors, wicker seats, open ceiling fans, and what I call R-1/9 oil--NOTHING in the world takes me back like that distinctive smell. Plus their unique-sounding motors.
The R-1/9s may have had character, but the Redbirds were absolutely the NADIR of subway car design. The last good car before the R-32 was the R-15, after that they were more boring than the PAX Network.
The R-32 was just a stainless steel Redbird, but Budd did a GOOD job with that. The R-38 sucks.
I know a lot of people say that it's "impractical" and "ugly," but I LIKE the R-40s with their slanted ends. The R-40 was a nice effort by the TA to finally make trains that didn't look ridiculously utilitarian.
On the day the last Redbird splashes into the sea, I will REJOICE.
I agree, The R32 is the best looking car of all time in the B division too bad it couldn't keep the original bonnet though. Hey, by getting rid of it we got A/C in return but also we got a flip dot sign in the process; at least the GE 32's show the original front but w/o the lights.
which were sued and won over $100M putting rockwell out of business
Rockwell International is still very much in business. They built all five space shuttles.
They do other things too. Remember before there was a standard for 56K modems there was K56Flex and X2? They developed K56Flex.
But they don't do things for subways nowadays, or do they?
The only cars in the R-1/9 class to get the blue & silver paint were SOME of the R-7/7a/9 Eastern Division cars, and then only a portion of the fleet. Not one of the R-4 or R-6-1/2/3 cars were ever painted or even overhauled!
wayne
That's very interesting, considering that the Controller only announced a couple of weeks ago that his staff would audit the books and that he said the results wouldn't be known for MONTHS.
More crewroom scuttlebutt?
David
Gawd, look at all those R-10's ! Steve B-8th Avexp and Bill Padron must be going nuts looking at that pic.
Okay, find the R-10 with the flat wheels !!
Bill "Newkirk"
ALL of them. Sheesh. That was EASY. :)
Wow that would be great if it did.
Imagine the MTA going back to using R-10's!!
It could always happen again - unless you and other riders remain vigilant and active and show you care about your transit system.
If you own a car, you have to bring it in for scheduled maintenance, watch out for recalls, wash it now and then, inflate the tires, and do reasonable things to keep it from being stolen. You don't throw litter out the window, and obey traffic laws.
If you ride transit, then transit is your car - so you participate in taking care of it.
>>>>
If you ride transit, then transit is your car - so you participate in taking care of it. <<<
Well...
The everyday commuter was, of course, not to blame for the graffiti plague of the 70s and 80s, which would still be happening today if not for vigilant procedures put in place by the MTA in the early to mid 1980s.
Has any study ever been made about why some young men between say, 12 to 25, feel that it's worth risking arrest, life or limb to mark up walls, trains, any blank space? I mean, I've never had that partucular urge. Never have.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Has any study ever been made about why some young men between say, 12 to 25, feel that it's worth risking arrest, life or limb to mark up walls, trains, any blank space?
You know why dogs urinate on fire hydrants?
I mean, I've never had that partucular urge. Never have.
You are weird.
AEM7
No, this is WIRED.
Weird for not having the urge to destroy public or private property?
Then I guess I must be weird also, because I never found the need to destroy either.
Then I guess I must be weird also, because I never found the need to destroy either.
Yes you are. Destruction is one of the greatest joys in life. Just ask a certain G.W.Bush. Why do you think there are computer games whose sole objective is to allow the player to "shoot-em-up"? Why do you think people go to Formula-1 racing to watch the wrecks?
Maybe you don't do any of the above. Then you are weird, because you are not the majority. The majority of people are fascinated by destruction in one way of another, and some like to cause destruction just to "see what happens".
AEM7
Why do you think there are computer games whose sole objective is to allow the player to "shoot-em-up"? Why do you think people go to Formula-1 racing to watch the wrecks?
Maybe you don't do any of the above. Then you are weird, because you are not the majority. The majority of people are fascinated by destruction in one way of another, and some like to cause destruction just to "see what happens".
Yes, I do like action/destruction movies, video games, racing wrecks, etc, but that is NOT destroying public or private property. There is a major difference. The video games, movies, etc are not real, they are fictional. The same with wrecking race cars, it's a planned event, and is not destroying property that is not supposed to be destroyed.
Another example. Take Independence Day (the Movie). I had enjoyed watching the Empire State Building, the White House etc, being "blown-up". It is entertaining, it's a movie, it's fictional, just like blowing up buildings, or shooting people on a PlayStation 2 game is entertaining.
I DO NOT feel the same way about watching tapes of 9/11. That's not entertaining.
The same with wrecking race cars, it's a planned event, and is not destroying property that is not supposed to be destroyed.
You ask Micheal Schumacher after a car wreck whether he intended and planned to cut around the corner too close and bump into another car's tyre just so that his fans could enjoy seeing his car getting destroyed...
You know, the reason that vandals put concrete slabs on the track and hurl stones at the train is fundamentally the same as why you find shooting people on PlayStation 2 entertaining. The stone hurler wants to see how many train windows he could "get", and the other guy wants to see if he can make a train derail, and if it does, what happens. Most people make the distinction between "real" like 9/11 and "fiction" like playing DOOM, but a few fail to make the distinction until they cause a catastrophic event.
The taggers' minds work a little differently, but it's the same concept. Oh and by the way, this kind of "tagging" is not just limited to misguided individuals on subways. The first thing a newly appointed division manager does when he arrives at his new office is to change the name plate on the door to his office. The next thing he does is to issue a circular to his subordinates to say something totally useless, but with his name on the bottom. It's not limited to individuals either. For instance, after hotmail got bought out by Microsoft Network, they felt it necessary to rename it "MSN hotmail".
People are fascinated with destruction. And if you want to call rebranding destruction, people are fascinated with rebranding -- a scratchetti, an office door, name of a company. All the same thing.
AEM7
You ask Micheal Schumacher after a car wreck whether he intended and planned to cut around the corner too close and bump into another car's tyre just so that his fans could enjoy seeing his car getting destroyed...
I know what you are trying to say, but it's not the same thing. When he is driving his car, he knows that that could happen. The same should not be true for NYCT sending a train out. They should not have to expect the possibility of it coming back tagged, or derailed by some idiot that wants to see what will happen.
You know, the reason that vandals put concrete slabs on the track and hurl stones at the train is fundamentally the same as why you find shooting people on PlayStation 2 entertaining. The stone hurler wants to see how many train windows he could "get", and the other guy wants to see if he can make a train derail, and if it does, what happens.
I think there is just a "slight" difference between me shooting people in a PlayStation 2 game, and a stone hurler breaking windows or trying to derail a train "to see what happens".
Most people make the distinction between "real" like 9/11 and "fiction" like playing DOOM, but a few fail to make the distinction until they cause a catastrophic event.
So it would still appear to me that "the few" are the ones that are "weird" and have a problem, and not the "most people that can make the distinction", like me.
The taggers' minds work a little differently, but it's the same concept. Oh and by the way, this kind of "tagging" is not just limited to misguided individuals on subways. The first thing a newly appointed division manager does when he arrives at his new office is to change the name plate on the door to his office.
Also a difference. A manager has a right to "claim" his office and change the name plate. MSN can claim "hotmail", it IS theirs. A tagger has absolutely no right to claim a subway car as "his". If NYCT wants to paint a car in a graffiti scheme, they have every right to do so. A tagger doesn't have the same right, as much as they may feel they do have a right to do so.
People are fascinated with destruction. And if you want to call rebranding destruction, people are fascinated with rebranding -- a scratchetti, an office door, name of a company. All the same thing.
It's not the same thing. Rebranding is not destruction. They own the brand, they can do as they please with it, and call it whatever they want. Scratchetti is not the same as a manager putting HIS name on HIS office door.
I'm not condoning it, but:
Those people who commit vandalism don't have properties they can rebrand, or their own nice stuff to destroy (and replace), they also don't care about public property. Especially in the 1970s, public property didn't look like anybody had to care about it.
Then there's also the danger of going into yards or onto active subway tracks, avoiding arrest or even death. Adrenaline is the best drug.
Then there's also the danger of going into yards or onto active subway tracks, avoiding arrest or even death. Adrenaline is the best drug.
Well, I didn't say they didn't have balls! I took a TM tour of the abandoned 18th Street station on the Lex, and under an almost wet "piece" there was a ladder!! The graffiti must've been done within hours of our tour. These guys actually dragged ladders throught the tunnel to do their "work"!! I don't think it could have been there already, although possible. It was a junky wood ladder, and didn't seem like anything the Transit Authority would be keeping there for some reason.
Well, just the fact that they either had to walk from Union Square or 23rd street on the busy Lexington Avenue Line must've have given them their rush. Even 91st Street on the West Side Line is really severley tagged, much worse than 18th Street. That station had been visited much more often, and that's also not easy to get to! Well, better them than me.
>>>>I mean, I've never had that partucular urge [to tag walls and trains]. Never have.
"You are weird. "<<<
Proudly. I have never done drugs either.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The difference between drugs and vandalism is that drugs only harm you.
Have you ever worked in an environment full of second hand pot smoke, eg. rock concerts?
-Robert King
I don't think second hand pot smoke can harm you?
I don't think second hand pot smoke can harm you?
Correct! I've been exposed to plenty of secondhand pot smoke, and it hasn't ... uh wait, what were we talking about ... and where are my Twinkies?
I'm really HUUUNGRY.
Peace,
ANDEE
Secondhand pot smoke is less harmful than secondhand tobacco smoke. Smoking pot should be legal wherever smoking is legal, except that high driving should be treated the same was as drunk driving.
Secondhand pot smoke is less harmful than secondhand tobacco smoke. Smoking pot should be legal wherever smoking is legal, except that high driving should be treated the same as as drunk driving.
>>> I have never done drugs either. <<<
Not even a morning caffeine fix from the coffee pot or an attitude adjusting drink during happy hour? :-)
Tom
Well, that's a strange comment. How did you make THAT connection? Just curious...
If you own a car, you have to bring it in for scheduled maintenance, watch out for recalls, wash it now and then, inflate the tires, and do reasonable things to keep it from being stolen. You don't throw litter out the window, and obey traffic laws.
If you ride transit, then transit is your car - so you participate in taking care of it.
People usually have significant financial investments in their cars. They do not have any investments in the transit systems they use, at least not directly.
If $720 a year for travel to/from work is not a significant direct investment, than what is? BTW there are other investments you make, you can find them on your Verizon bill.
If $720 a year for travel to/from work is not a significant direct investment, than what is? BTW there are other investments you make, you can find them on your Verizon bill.
A subway rider might not think twice about, say, throwing a discarded McDonald's wrapper on the floor of the car when he's done eating because (1) it isn't his car; (2) someone else will likely clean it up, and (3) even if it isn't cleaned, he's not likely to be riding the identical car again. It's not like your own automobile, where you own it, are responsible for keeping it running, and no one's going to clean up after you.
Goverment is by the consent of the governed. We DO own the MTA system and we pay all of its bills, whether at the farebox, in taxes, or because of mismanagement.
But everybody JUST VOTED ... now it's time to reap the results. :(
In two years, everyone will vote for the SAME morons AGAIN. Works EVERY time.
Ah, the wonders of Democracy... : )
Sorry, our system is a PLUTocracy.
You've never seen the inside of my car!!
Sounds like a prime example of "deferred maintainance".
What is that on the front of the train on the second track from the right?
Could be an old track geometry car or inspection car.
That's the OFFICIAL "MTA School bus" or "Track inspection car" ... in it, dignitaries and lookenspeepers can play the usual bus game, "guess the psychosis of your seatmate" ... the "TA bus on wheels" was actually designed for bright-light tunnel and structure inspection and also contained (it's been a while for me) some really neat toys for checking track flaws and pretty much allows the TA to get a feel for the system without calling in Sperry to use the "REAL RAIL BUS" to check for detailed flaws.
My silliness aside, that IS the "TA rail inspection car" ... been around for quite a while now, surprised it can still roll.
I think that car is almost as old as I am! (LOL)
That's the OFFICIAL "MTA School bus"
If I'm thinking of the right one its even painted yellow now, kinda like a school (or "cheese" :) bus.
I was indeed ... it was also "Holy Ronan Empired" ... hey! Maybe they could paint it RED with a black roofline. Nah. :)
That's the SPERRY car, the round shaped track car.
The one in the photo is the "observation car" ... the SPERRY unit is an intersting mongrel and looks MUCH different:
Here's OF-116 "Observation car" in its native environs:
and HERE is the SPERRY car ... *THIS* is the "track geometry car:
Did they take all those headlights from scrapped train cars and put them on the observation car ;-). Wow that is still running, I haven't seen that in some time, imagine that was a fleet of train cars it would be very interesting [notice the Redbird behind it]. Its been so long since I've seen the Sperry car I forgot how it looked.
The SPERRY is a concerted PCC TROLLEY! And as for the "observation car" (read that as VIP tent) I recognized them headlamp housings in an INSTANT ... removed from Arnines! Strangest looking "car" I've ever seen - looks like they spliced a Mack bus onto an Arnine chassis, removed the motors and gave it "X files" lighting grid to spook track workers. I'm guessing though that OM-whatever draws SO much electricity for the freaking lights that there's nada left for the traction motors, therefore it MUST be pushed by something that WON'T dim out Staten Island. :)
The observation car is basically a "school bus" on tracks :-). Did you see the front of the obaservation car, it does look like a split Mack bus. You could imagine how bright those lights must be in a tunnel, they should give track workers those old R9 lights on their helmets in addition to their orange vests so T/O's could see them better.
Yeah, but GEEZ ... if I was yanking on a trip cock, and that thing cruised by on an adjacent track, I'd be begging Mr. Green to KILL me for fear that the mothership would have me otherwise. I mean LOOK at that damned thing. It'd BLIND anyone on an adjacent, and instantly turn trackworkers into blind "mole people" ...
Heypaul, insert video HERE. :)
Those lights make the school bus more odd looking than it already is . With the amount of lights it got, you could probably see all the rats in the Montague rathole ;-)
With THAT many lights, I imagine they break out the tophats and canes and provide a floorshow. I mean that thing must look like something out of "X files" barreling down a tunnel. :)
Have you ever seen the rail grinder in operation? Now THAT'S a floor show!
Well, back when I was in the system, it was several flatcar-like (weird looking things) monstrosities with lost of grinding wheels spinning with yellow sparks being thrown out as it moved slowly. Dunno what they're doing these days though. I doubt those grinders would still be working after 30 years and change. I'm a throwback to the days when WHEEL grinding was done OFF the axles on rotary machines in the Coney shop (another great light show) ... nowadays I hear they do those "in place" with the machinery below the rail and the wheels aren't taken off the axles anymore.
The old "grinder train" was a sight to behold though.
It sounded like the Apocalypse, too. I wonder how that unusual piece of equipment was maintained, as it surely would have seen lots of wear from friction alone.
There were a lot of very interesting and unique people down at Coney that, if left alone for a few hours, probably could have turned out submarines down there. I'm sure there were three or four people whose only job on the line was keeping all those wheels turning ...
I wish I were able to see that. Hey Selkirk, which do you think is brighter, the lights on the "school bus" or the sparks created from the grinding ;-)? Wow, I bet that would be very interesting seeing all the sparks.
Oh the edge for brightness would OBVIOUSLY go to the "Magic Schoolbus" ... the grinder train had a lot of wheels underneath it, but the "sparks" were your typical steel grinding, not all that terribly impressive, but it had a LOT of "heads" on various angles. Quite an interesting thing to watch as it went by. If you've ever held a knife or a tool to a grinder wheel, that was pretty much it - just a LOT of grinders along the consist ... Dave Letterman would have gotten into it. :)
Its still interesting to see grinding in general, although the sparks will go in different directions. As for the 'school bus', well you'll need super goggles to keep you from getting blind from the light; and we thought subway sparks were bright[which they are] but nothing would probably compare to the 'bus'; and it just happened to be painted yellow :0).
Have you ever seen the rail grinder in operation? Now THAT'S a floor show!
The Sperry car and track geometry car are different.
The track geometry car is STILL silver and blue and says TRACK INSPECTION CAR on the side.
Here's a picture:
and behing it you can see TGC1, the other track geometry car
THTA looks like something purchased after I left the city. I sit corrected then, didn't know about that one.
It may sound like a dumb question but I have to ask this. What does the SPERRY car actually do? Does it do the same job as the Track Geometry cars?
Also, the SPERRY unit was a noisey little son-of-a-gun. First time I saw it, I was 4 years old and waiting for an R train at Dekalb Ave. Me and my mother were heading to the World Trade Center that day when that monster showed up. Scared the s**t out of me. I saw the Track Geometry car a year later and had flashbacks of "The Taking of Pelham 123". What else was I supposed to think seeing a silver/blue single car passing Lexington Ave on the N and R line? But the Geometry car sounded like a flying saucer compared to the SPERRY. That time I was curious, not freaked out.
The Sperry car WAS a track geometry car and in particular, a "defect spotter" ... I'm guessing that the TG's have probably replaced the older Sperry jobbie which was actually an old PCC trolley converted to the task if I remember right ... never saw the TG's before though until Pigs posted them today, so I'd guess they're modern day replacements.
Cool, thanks.
>>> The Sperry car WAS a track geometry car and in particular, a "defect spotter" <<<
I thought the second function, defect spotter was the purpose of the Sperry car. It did not check the alignment of the tracks (track geometry) but checked for cracks and other defects in the rails with ultra sonics.
Tom
Never set foot on it, you're probably right though. I was under the impression that the Sperry pretty much did both but I could be wrong.
It looks beautiful to me.
Ah, the old days. Concourse Yard - say 1978 - 1979 - R10's signed up for CC local rush-hour service. Breaking down or derailing halfway to Rockaway Park.........
Interesting consist behind the track geometry car - looks like R40M's with some pre-Redbird IRT cars.
I don't see it happening again.
I seriously doubt that it would go back to graffiti on the cars [aka deferred maintenance days], and plus the MTA's budget gap is probably NOT as large as we think.
Is the MTA's budget gap as large as they WANT us to think it is?
Hint of politics ... there are "expense" agencies and there are "revenue" agencies in the state ... if people hand an agency money (hint, Tax and Finance, DMV, Division of the Lottery and MTA are all "revenue agencies") then you merely cut the subsidies and charge the revenue agencies a higher "general fund offset" and voila, the turnstyles suddenly become a state tax. MTA gets whatever's left over. Joe Bruno's HUNGRY ...
THIS is your MTA ... this is your MTA on "chargebacks" ... any questions? :)
Maybe Bruno's hugry for Paturkey as well 8-). Seriously, the MTA already takes a surcharge from the ligh or gas bill[I forget which one]. Don't give any ideas about a turnstile tax, that may make it look justified to give a fare increase :-\.
The surcharge is from your phone bill. So reach out and pay up. :-\
That extra .25% on the sales tax is also an MTA surcharge.
And STILL they want MORE and cry BROKE! If the MTA's books were open I'd understand their "needs" better and swo would everybody else!
It's a DONE DEAL according to my buddies in Division of the Budget who have CLOSED their case for the coming year. MTA will be handed numbers one week from Wednesday in the bound volumes of the "Budget" which are already being PRINTED ... the calculations are "$2.50 fare" ... THAT'S THE PRICE, $2.50 ... if MTA wants to CUT things to lower the amount, that's up to the MTA ... mass firings, no maintenance, no cleaning, no car orders, no facilities ... it's all up to the MTA to do with what they get. They're getting ... "hot lunch" ...
Rest of the state is getting 5-10% *FIRINGS* ... but each agency is given a cash amount to work with, HOW they deal with that cash amount is up to them and the political pressures brought to bear.
BOTTOM LINE: Joe Bruno is going to get a shiny, brand new "Joe Bruno Saratoga Amtrak Station" ... that's the ***ONLY*** thing not going to be cut out of the budget. Phuck yas all, says Joe ... and your silly N train. Sorry, dat's reality and it's being PRINTED as I type ...
For $2.50 they better be bringing me a hot lunch when I ride.
And not no public school hot lunch neither ;-). The system would really have to be a "grand royal" system for $2.50 all right. That means less timers[except where necessary], more service, an expansion of the current system, more renovated stations, at least 90% of cars have working A/C & heating, better train cars and proper "hot lunch", you got a deal. Not for the current system, ABSOLUTELY NOT but I really don't think it would be $2.50, that's totally unreasonable, I say $2 is probably the best figure at this point but $1.75 would be better.
Heh ... well, like "code blue" in a hospital which means "someone's CROAKING in my emergency room", the term "hot lunch" is a transit euphemism for "lock out this car, someone threw up on the floor and it smells BAD" ... I don't think you want a political "hot lunch" I can assure you. :(
Check this out: This is FDNY. This is FDNY on EMS...$71 million in the hole on ambulance billing. Yeah, and Guiliani wanted FDNY to take EMS away from HHC so FDNY would become a "revenue producing agency". Instead, FDNY is now the third biggest debtor agency in NYC. Anyone want to guess what'll happen to our transit agencies if our government doesn't do what it KNOWS it should?
Brains and politics are mutually exclusive. Whoever gives the most cash to the anointed gets to walk away with the contract. And CLEARLY a Zogby-quality tink thank came up with THAT idea.
Wanna have a laugh? "Change-NY," the organization that *IS* Paturkey and Bruno just went BANKRUPT. Says it all, it does it does ...
You're either a "disbursement" agency or a "profit center" to docudroids and adminiswigs ... and when the going gets tough, the tough go borrowing. But MTA is going to SHEET themselves when they see their 40% cash cut and have to decide what to do about it. :(
Did Change NY go bankrupt morally or financially?
Heh. Thanks for asking. Yeah, BOTH ... "Change NY" has found a whole NEW scam in "faith-based edumication" ala Shrub and their executive council is now working with their Paturkey creating "CHARTER SCHOOLS" and is opening one in Albany on YOUR tax wallet. Seems running "faith based edumication" is *FAR* more enriching than being a pesky lobbying group. So now, instead of "protecting" you wallet, they are SUCKING it.
TRUE Republicanism, Enron style. Yep, PROUD to be ... narf ...
Seeing Concourse yard like that brings back memories. As a former graffiti artist, this brings tears to my eyes. Of course, I've matured and retired from subway graffiti, but it would not surprise me if it did show up again. But nowadays, very unlikely. Graffiti on an R142 or R143 wouldn't look so hot. There was something about the fleets from R10-R36 that graffiti improved their look on the outside, not the inside. I don't count the World's Fair R36/33S because they had a beauty all in their own. Main Line trains needed a little color in their appearance. I've read through the years that the MTA paint scheme was boring and undesirable compared to cars' original scheme. But I had a real boner when IRT cars came out in white. A clean, unobstructed canvas. But, however through time, we mature and learn to take more responsibility for our actions. Back then, I was a kid and knew no better. Now, my graffiti stays on a real artist canvas. If anything, just to get back on topic, graffiti might return, but very unlikely. Regardless of financial state, the MTA would not want to risk ruining new subway cars, buses, and stations. Not after spending millions, even billions of dollars to shape up the system. We can thank Dr. William Ronan for the fall of the subway system.
I used to sell my artwork of subway cars with grafitti on them to the tourists in Midtown. Now when I paint or draw "today's" trains, everybody says "where's the grafitti?". It just makes the picture look more dramatic. Ironic, huh?:-)
True that. I make subway car bookmarks for my books. A few of my friends like to buy them from me. They prefer my Redbird bookmarks, but going along with the times, I retired them from my catalog. My R142's come out good, but not like the redbirds. R62's and current B Division fleets are popular among my pals. Only once did I make an R16 in the redbird scheme and at this moment, my pals are fighting over it. They're bidding it like it's an auction in my house. My bookmarks are 75 cents each and the bid for the R16 bookmark is at $20 now. I sure hate to disappoint them, knowing that it's not for sale.
Nah.
No more R-10's.
On New Years Day...I rode one of the relatively new 2 trains to Flatbush Avenue. Low and behold....the Glass is all scratched up as well as the seats!
What PIGS and slobs there are in this City! To destroy public property for their own so called "Amusement".
IMHO the fare should be raised to $2.50 a ride...keep the ulimited passes....and let the working class get a tax break on their Federal Income tax returns for using public transportation. Those who file an income tax return, including dependents of those who file, get the tax releif. Deadbeats and tax evaders....well as the story goes....they get lost.
IMHO the scum that deface public property should be put to work, along with minimum security prisioners, to clean the public transportation system of this city. NYC should follow the rest of the nation in this respect...in the south minium security prisioners and those that have earned trust have been presented the opportunity to "pay society back" for their offenses. In return, prisioners are taught some basic skills that can earn them a future and maybe a job upon release.
Enough is enough...free lunches to the degenerates that disrespect propety and values of the tax paying citizens of this city have not worked. No more prisons with weight rooms and projection color TV's.
What PIGS and slobs there are in this City!
This is just gratuitous anti-swinitism. I understand calling lazy and dirty people pigs, because that fits the pig stereotype (it's still wrong), but how is there anything slovenly about scratchiti? Is scratchiti something that happens when people lie around doing jack shit and it requires effort to not do it?
Alright, we've had subways on TV, we've had Busses on TV, we've even had buses and subways in movies, well now we've got a whole new one!
Metrocards on TV!
I was just watching an old Saturday Night Live episode on Comedy Central, Chevy Chase's (the host, it wasn't that old) character was talking with a nut running a newstand played by Mark McKinney about NBC 4's NewsChopper. It wasn't a bad sketch, kinda drawn out though. Anyway, at the end they zoom out from the "NewsStand" set and you can see a blue metrocard sign next to or on top of the NYlotto poster.
Yay! A metrocard on TV. and No, I don't live close enough to get the MTA's commercials, so this is the first time i've seen one (ever notice how no TV or Movie character seems to swipe or deposit change in the machine prior to entering the subway?)
BLUE Metrocard ?........dated episode of course.
Bill "Newkirk"
That episode originally aired on February 15, 1997. It would be only a few months before Metrocard went gold.
22 derailments. Red tags all over the system. Passengers staging mutinies on OOS trains. 30-minute headways during the DAY. Abyssmally poor MDBF numbers, even for the newer cars. Rampant graffiti. 1983, the low point of deferred maintenance. It CAN happen again.
Everything CAN happen again. The British can conquer North America again. Communism could rise again.
I think that's why the fare will be MORE than two dollars ... aside from Bruno needing some funny munny to throw around DESPITE the state's finances. After all, he's republican and it's those OTHER guys that "tax and spend" ... hell no ... BORROW and spend is *MUCH* better, and orgasmic if you can provide a tax cut for the rich in addition. Check out the debt clock. Amazingly, those who are "connected" STILL get their tips on when to buy and sell, and make money even when everyone else DOESN'T ...
But no, the money will be found - one more week until the MTA gets their "numbers" and can decide WHO to screw ... just like their puppeteers in Smallbany ...
I'm just trying to point up what WILL happen (shouldn't have said "can") if the folks in Albany and City Hall allow maintenance to slip. 20 years ago the fare was 75 cents but operating costs were lower, too. I'm still amazed that such a safety-critical area as maintenance was allowed to become so slipshod. I doin't have figures, but some of the accident-related lawsuits arising from this must have truly been astonishing.
Yes, it WILL happen again. Only the fact that the subway was built to ten times its necessary strength kept it from being worse than it was last time.
No, it WILL NOT.
They'll drop the ball on something else, but they will never defer maintenance again.
Are you willing to bet your life on that?
You were the one who brought it up. Maybe you should bet your life.
I DON'T trust public agencies to always look out for my interests (such as my life). That's why I'm ranting about deferred maintenance now. If enough of us (railfan and non-) start yelling about it, and voting consistently and regularly, then maybe it won't happen again.
I DON'T trust public agencies to always look out for my interests (such as my life).
I never trust public agencies to look out for my interests, EVER.
The people at the MTA look out for their own interests: their jobs. They won't keep them if there is deferred maintenance, because the plutocrats WILL NOT tolerate it this time.
Voting has no meaning now ... everyone had their chance in November. But they believed the doublespeak and carnival barkers. Now it's time to bend over and pucker up. Proud to be ... screwed ...
Two years to the next election and the lawgivers you all reupped are about to flip you the bird and give you your own personal cab blessing. The hard way ... :(
There will be a council election this November.
So you're right, no changes for another two years.
Here's how Unca Selkirk calls it ... the STATE needs MONEY. The TA can probably continue to run as is with a $1.75 fare. With $2.00, all is guaranteed to pretty much remain in statis. State decides however to CUT OFF ALL TRANSIT FUNDING (watch for the "Governor's budget message" next week along with State of the State WEDNESDAY - WILL be carried on your NYS PBS station LIVE in both circumstances) ... TA must do 100% fare recovery (or VERY close to) ... in addition, STATE will TAKE money from the subways ... why? So as to keep MNRR, LIRR fare hikes to a MINIMUM. Why? Republican voters. SCREW NYC ...
$2.25? $2.50? we'll ALL know soon enough. Layoffs, DEFINITELY. 5% to 10% is what I've been hearing ... car cleaning? DEFINITELY will be cut back, since suits won't hit the silk without a cash incentive ... reality time is nigh ...
Reality time! Demographics have always played a part in where the funding goes. The wealthier suburban communities, who have more disposable income to give out as campaign contributions, will always get favorable consideration vis-a-vis rail transport. City dwellers, who pay the lion's share of the MTA's costs, but are not affluent, will suffer proportionally higher fare increases, fewer trains, and deferred maintenance.
As one of our brethren here put it, "suit covered anuses" ... but don't be bitter ... they're getting the "you ain't the upper 1% EITHER" treats from their benefactor party. Those of us upstate, known to be sheep, already GOT our 35% property tax hikes and our 62% SCHOOL TAX hikes ... that got held off for the election in "shaky suburban counties" ... so THEY get a DOUBLE-DIP of Paturkey gravy NEXT fiscal year. They're already projecting numbers for Suffolk, Westchester, Rockland, Putnam, and Sullivan counties coming towards a 78% PROPERTY tax hike (unfunded state mandates pushed off to counties) and a 150% SCHOOL tax hike (end of state funding formula, also imposed on counties) all as part of Paturkey's little secret settlement for the NYC school discriminations suit ... LOCALITIES will fund that now, state's out of it entirely.
So those who voted for Paturkey and their GOP cronies are about to get it rammed up their snout. Political reasoning? Same as Caso did in Nassau for years - stuff it up their stovepipe NOW, and they'll forget all about it in two years and vote for me again ... always worked, will again. The next two years are the political X files, and in any two year gap between "real" elections, the politicos hand out the bacon to their buddies and shaft everyone else. Bend over, pope on a rope ...
Oh, please don't get me started on the GOP! For example, why is it that I just paid my prop tax (NYC) in June, but now am being jacked again this month. I got a letter saying "Fork it over, even if you made full payment in June". What is this, are they saying "we screwed up, but we can make YOU pay"? Meanwhile I now have less income to pay for upcoming fare increases, let alone everything else.
Extracting "larger and loarger sums from an ever shrinking tax base" as Whitley Streiber once wrote, will culminmate in either tax revolt or drastic reductions in ALL public services. (That's ALREADY happening.) If I am expected as an individual to budget my money responsibly, then why mot the MTA, or all our government agencies?
New Yorkers are SHEEP ... and NO, it's *NOT* the city's fault. The STATE refused to pay up THEIR share, and then enacted retroactive taxation ... THAT'S what happened. WE got nailed in October. Paturkey was running for re-up, so he "pocketed" the bill until November 7th ... sent it along to ALL state tax agencies the day after his "selection" as GOOBERnor ... GOTCHA!!!
And that was LAST year's screwage. Just wait until you see the NEXT bill - it'll be AT LEAST DOUBLE THAT! I ain't sheeting here ... last year's "budget deficit" was about $2 billion. This COMING year's deficit is currently pegged at $12.4 BILLION ...
DO the math ... run like hell ...
A little two-horse town in the Southeast has been trying to hire me to run their EMS system (three ambulances.) There's no subways there but the salary's good, the taxes are low, and the town government wants to throw in an incentive package. Do I run (and give up the benefits of living in a big city) or stay (and keep making the fat cats fatter?)
A little two-horse town in the Southeast has been trying to hire me to run their EMS system (three ambulances.) There's no subways there but the salary's good, the taxes are low, and the town government wants to throw in an incentive package. Do I run (and give up the benefits of living in a big city) or stay (and keep making the fat cats fatter?)
GO!!!!!!!!!!
It'll be the best decision you'll ever make.
I've been trying for weeks to convince Selkirk to move, as he has a "mobile" occupation as best I can tell, but he's determined to stay in New York. Please don't make a similar mistake, seize the opportunity. I'd sell my soul for the chance to live in the Sunbelt, but my job ties me here.
Then why do you SEEM to care about the NEW YORK CITY Subway.
Yeah, I'm kinda trapped by OWNING the house I live in AND owning the building where the company is. And have LOTS to pay on both entities. New York's got me (heh, like I'm alone) by the short-hairs.
But ya know? Ain't much culture up where I am (I have to come down THERE for it) and ain't much of anything other than being left alone among some REALLY NICE Albany county compatriots who have proven to me time and time again that we all watch out for one another AND respect each other's privacy ... I've ALWAYS loved New York and I *still* do.
I just hope that others love ME enough to keep buying our mud so I can afford to STAY in New York. About the only other places in the United STATES that I appreciate to a degree is Northern California, Colorado (just a few parts) and PITTSBURGH. But I'd MUCH rather be here as long as Perth, Australia doesn't welcome emigration nor does Montreal. :\
It sucks, but there's no better place on earth than New York ... I just WISH we'd had something better than Mark Green, Andrew Cuomo or Gasbag Golisano to be our "leeder" ... this country's going STRAIGHT to hell, and its name be the GOP ... and up HERE, we're willing to brandish our shooting irons to make them phuckers leave the property. Once, I was a proud republican ... it finally took Trent Lott to demonstrate to everyone else why the GOP is full of ... Bruno ...
Yeah, I'm stuck too. Not by home ownership or by business, but try as I might I can't see myself anywhere else but NYC. The subway is only part of the reason I stay. My job is another--I work in one of the biggest EMS systems in the world--so I can always get my "trauma fix": plenty of challenging calls to go to. Another reason I stay is everything I want is here, from the convenience store on the corner to the fact that Bway and Greenwich Village are only a subway ride away.
Yes, I pay a lot of money for these things, and my salary relative to the cost of living isn't that good. But even with that Sunbelt offer pending, I know I just wouldn't be comfortable there. The trouble is, both my employer and the fat cats in Albany and City Hall KNOW this...
Yeh, we're ALL rubes for actually believing that the store on the corner REALLY IS "going out of business, 50% off" even if they've been on that corner for 60 years now, GOING out of business. :)
I was borna and raised in NYC, born in Wadsworth Hospital in Washington Heights, lived the first half of my life in the Bronx, second half upstate. I've travelled a LOT in my earlier years, been pretty much everywhere that was "hot" ... and just kept coming BACK to New York because there's nothing else like it in the WORLD. Upstate or down, it's MAGIC ... even if it's more expensive than Dizzy Orlando.
But yeah, if MONEY is your motivation, THIS PLACE SUCKS ... but if it's SOUL you want, and the finest people on the phucking PLANET, there's nothing else LIKE New York for keeping it all TOO real. :)
But for what you do, East Buttfuck WOULD appreciate your talents and experience. But ya gotta ask yourself before you get on the bangbus, "ARE they spongeworthy?" Heh.
Nah, they're not worthy. I mean, what am I gonna do down there, respond to a call of a Cow Down? Also the corner store is thirty miles away down there. I know. When they were trying to sell me on relocating there, I had to drive 20 minutes on unlit 2-lane horse trail to find it. Plus THERE ARE NO TRAINS. Not even Amtrak. :-(
COW DOWN?!?!?! Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding (five bells HERE) ... If Bossie croaks UPSTATE, it's back on food stamps again. But yeah, if you're living in da chitty and the pace doesn't give you dyspepsia, then Cowpone, AL just AIN'T gonna cut it for ya ...
Besides, the E911 dispatch is likely to have insects which will result in screens like this:
Yahoo ... woo.
oh please don't do that! I almost busted a gut LOL!!!!!!
It's LIKE that. Consider your moves. Outta towners will ALWAYS diss Noo Yawk, but let's face it ... ain't no place LIKE Noo Yawk for so many reasons ... even IF you bust yer wallet doing it. We'se a BLOO state, dadgummit ... that ALONE is worth staying put. :)
But that dog STILL won't hunt ... file a G2 and it goes away. Until crew call in the morning. Heh.
Hey, Jay. STAY!!!!!!!!!! I've been accused of being a wide-eyed Midwestern newbie (guilty), but I've lived in, and like, New Mexico, Wisconsin, and Ohio -- the cities -- and detested Mississippi and Georgia, both big and small. You have a taste for mobility and it will be GONE down there. The politicians are BAD NEWS and they HIDE it, and everyone conspires to keep it hidden. Here, it gets reported, discussed, they get thrown out someday (yeah, the new ones are worse, but they're new, unlike the South), and there's motion. Don't let strangers in Albany drive you out. It's all temporary.
But yeah, if MONEY is your motivation, THIS PLACE SUCKS ... but if it's SOUL you want, and the finest people on the phucking PLANET, there's nothing else LIKE New York for keeping it all TOO real. :)
Except you can't eat soul. Can't eat people either, fine or otherwise. Well, usually not.
That's OK ... I have faith in our current "leaders" ... human flesh, if cooked properly, tastes like chicken. Republicans eat their young. Once State of the State and Budget School are done, we'll have PROFF. :)
Now, now. Republicans only eat their young if they don't grow up to be President.
And when they get "selected" they eat their daughters ...
Natch:
http://www.google.com/search?q=bush+daughters
In my OLD days, both would have gotten cab blessings. :)
human flesh, if cooked properly, tastes like chicken.
I heard it tastes like pork.
>>> I heard it tastes like pork. <<<
It depends on the recipe. How it is cooked (if it is cooked), spices used, etc. :-)
Tom
Yeah, I'm stuck too. Not by home ownership or by business, but try as I might I can't see myself anywhere else but NYC. The subway is only part of the reason I stay. My job is another--I work in one of the biggest EMS systems in the world--so I can always get my "trauma fix": plenty of challenging calls to go to. Another reason I stay is everything I want is here, from the convenience store on the corner to the fact that Bway and Greenwich Village are only a subway ride away.
Staying in New York because of your job is one thing. That's basically my situation too; I've been at my job for almost ten years, and would be perfectly happy staying there until retirement 20 or 25 years from now. Even though I'd be ecstatic to be able to live in the Sunbelt, that's not a realistic possibility unless my company relocates. One of these compromises one has to make in life, I guess.
On the other hand, my employer has major operations in suburban Dallas, and there's always hope ...
Moving to Dallas is DEFINTELY a good thing for anyone happy to do so, means that a TRUE New Yorker can have that job, and they're in short supply now. My OWN attitude is if someone wants to move to a RED state, don't let the door smack yer butt. :)
Moving to Dallas is DEFINTELY a good thing for anyone happy to do so, means that a TRUE New Yorker can have that job, and they're in short supply now. My OWN attitude is if someone wants to move to a RED state, don't let the door smack yer butt. :)
If I moved to Dallas, I'd be doing so because my job moved. Hence there'd be no new job opening in New York.
Tell your employer you like DARTs...and there's a big DART board in Dallas...(lol)
If you think it will advance your career, and that the position is truly as they advertise, then go (you can always come back at some point).
But beware: An opportunity like that can be wonderful, or, because it's a little town (and you can run out of allies very quickly), it can turn into hell's worst nightmare.
My wife is doing something analogous here in Kansas City.
I'd sell my soul for the chance to live in the Sunbelt.
That IS the definition of moving to the Sunbelt.
Ha, now the people who voted for Paturkey will feel the repercussions NOW, hehehe. Voters fell in his trap especially when he "miraculously" found $200+ million in health care, ha too bad people didn't vote for McCall or Golisano [I didn't vote though] ;-). See how politicians are so successful, they make sugar coat promises, then forget about them then people get mad BUT yet he's re-elected anyway :-\. Now chances are the MTA's budget gap is NOT $1.1 billion[someone here said they had a $630M surplus] so the top brass just want to have a bigger paycheck, they're a bunch of greedy, corrupted corporate assholes who don't give a shit about the people who ride the system, think about it.
While I'd agree that the MTA board is inhabited by people who would NEVER ride the train (much like those suit-covered anuses profiled in the previous post where a businesscreep involed in Harvey Audio said, in essence, "I have to ride a TRAIN with THOSE PEOPLE) the people who are going to have to deal with this pile of parrot droppings forthcoming in the FY2003/2004 budget (which will *NOT* be passed in time to prevent much further, DEEPER damage [budget is due April 1, 2003 and won't happen until SEPTEMBER if at all]) are your poor old tired grade 18's and such ...
Executive board will do "attritions" since "early retirement" has pretty much already gotten rid of anyone who WANTED to go when times were fat ... the whole "NO LAYOFF" clause in the TWU contract being thrown overboard gives the MTA EXACTLY the fiscal leverage they wanted - shed 30% of the TWU, cut back the trains, don't clean 'em, fire the car inspectors and their superintendants ("Consolidation of car maintenance facilities" was one of the BIG proposed "study group recommendations" in consolidating 12 car shops into TWO) and a number of other economies including 50% cuts to car cleaning and station cleaning, 20% service reductions AND a $2.00 fare (elimination of the V train, elimination of the M southern division, elimination of the Sea Beach and turning it into a shuttle as WELL as the West End), D train full time local, Q train, full time local and numerous other "attrition, what ... are they going to take the BUS?" study group things were all put together as options for MTA to CONSIDER.
MTA's reality is, they get cut 40% ... HOW they implement those cuts are up to them. None of the study group ideas are workable, and MTA is not obligated to read or listen to ANY of them. Bottom line, how do they cut the 40%? And is the 40% ***REAL*** ... Governor's budget message will tell, then it's up to political dickering and horsetrading, ASSUMING they pass the budget in time. For the last 18 years, the budget has been late ...
THIS year promises to be the latest EVER ... and the longer it takes, the HIGHER the costs once reality strikes, since in the ABSENCE of a budget, agency spending continues at the OLD levels ... woe is us. :(
Ahh, submitting the budget late shall continue for the forseeable future, with Paturkey at the helm oh yeah.
[>>"Executive board will do "attritions" since "early retirement" has pretty much already gotten rid of anyone who WANTED to go when times were fat ... the whole "NO LAYOFF" clause in the TWU contract being thrown overboard gives the MTA EXACTLY the fiscal leverage they wanted - shed 30% of the TWU, cut back the trains, don't clean 'em, fire the car inspectors and their superintendants ("Consolidation of car maintenance facilities" was one of the BIG proposed "study group recommendations" in consolidating 12 car shops into TWO) and a number of other economies including 50% cuts to car cleaning and station cleaning, 20% service reductions AND a $2.00 fare (elimination of the V train, elimination of the M southern division, elimination of the Sea Beach and turning it into a shuttle as WELL as the West End), D train full time local, Q train, full time local and numerous other "attrition, what ... are they going to take the BUS?" study group things were all put together as options for MTA to CONSIDER.<<"]
This would basically be a repeat of the 1970's. What alternate service would they provide if the N & West End is cut back to a full time shuttle, whoa you're telling me that people would have to depend on the R :-o??!! Fred would really have a fit if his Sea Beach was cut back ALL times. Eliminating the Brighton express, are they crazy that will cause a riot[can't mess with our Brighton line] and would just be dumb.
And you think the buses would be good, right WRONG! The cuts would be even deeper like reducing or eliminating LTD stop service, service reductions, long waits on frequent routes IN the rush hour, more breakdowns will occur, service reductions all together, long gaps btw ordering new buses and we get hit with a fare increase anyway thats pure bullshit if this happens again!
*ANY* decisions to cut back service, modify service, or whatever lies ENTIRELY with the MTA board ... what I mentioned were the hare-brained schemes of Division of the Budget who would hold MTA's feet to the fire if they asked for more money than they're GETTING ...
There was an agency that spread TERROR when I was a docudroid - it was called "LCER" or "legislative Committee for Expenditure Review" that would swoop down on "revenue agencies" and nickel and dime EVERY decision EVERYWHERE and pronounce in a report to the legislature that "we recommended X and the agency failed to carry out our recommendations" ... I'm told LCER has become toothless, but the "mission statement" continues in earnest. When LCER's folks tell you "Cut this, change this, do that" you'd BETTER listen ... ultimately though, the AGENCY so directed must CHOOSE ... or be abolished, members of the board "reorganized" or other methods to resolve the outcome of the "study group" ...
Ultimately, ALL of this nonsense is up the the MTA as to how they will evaluate, study, and carry out the whims of the porcine. But these ARE recommendations that Division of the Budget has studied, and the conviction is that the 3 line could run from Lenox terminal to 145 as a shuttle, the 5 only needs to go to Dyre as a shuttle out of E180, the 2 can carry ALL express traffic on the Lex (though it doesn't RUN there) as well as Broadway and the 1,9 and 6 can take up the slack ... (they were PROUD of THAT decision) ... their "considerations" for other lines were even MORE nuts ...
But like I said, they only offer "suggestions" ... the BUDGET provides the real dollars, and if an agency chooses to do something else, that's FINE by them so long as no ADDITIONAL dollars are requested. The dollars GRANTED are based on these hair-brained schemes.
Might not mean much to RAILFANS, but "consolidation of 12 car maintenance shops into 2" gets me instantly as "huh?" Screw the line truncations ... where the hell are they going to layup CARS? And there's only X amount of tracks to put "troubles" on and yet this hairbrained scheme STILL got pitched ... shows a TOTAL lack of how the subways operate ... but such is the depth of mind of our lawgivers ... :(
>>"Might not mean much to RAILFANS, but "consolidation of 12 car maintenance shops into 2" gets me instantly as "huh?" Screw the line truncations ... where the hell are they going to layup CARS? And there's only X amount of tracks to put "troubles" on and yet this hairbrained scheme STILL got pitched ... shows a TOTAL lack of how the subways operate ... but such is the depth of mind of our lawgivers ... :("<<
12 maintenance shops cut down to TWO! What the hell is that, CI and 207 would be heavily overloaded and costs would go up dramatically. Sorry Selkirk, but I'm not buying this, this is just going overboard. Remember when laying-up cars were common in the 1980's, look at how the kids got a lot of their art[graffiti] on the subway cars. I agree with you, where would you lay up all the cars in need of maintenance. They're really not thinking straight :-\.
Like I said many times, this is the thinking of SMALLBANY at play here ... but this "concept" *IS* going to be put before the MTA board among many OTHER stupid ideas I'm not as passionate about. The adminiswigs and docudroids up here see the MAJOR saving for MTA to consider to reduce the impact of the fare (NYS gets 75 CENTS, MTA can use whatever's left over) is reductions of MAJOR proportions in station agents, car cleaners, operations of "redundant trains" where ANOTHER train services those stations (in other words, anything that fees into a "mainline" should be a shuttle TO that mainline in the same mindset and spirit as the "Franklin shuttle" (no offense to Frankie fans) ... in other words, whatever local runs from the deepest part of any "mainline" should be the ONLY train that goes to Manhattan and any OTHER train that "meets" it would just be a shuttle. The PLAN is to even turn the mighty Selkirk spiritual D train into a shuttle from the Bronx that has a southbound terminal at 145, where Bronx peons can just change for the A local ... This IS the mindset up here, though NONE of this will come to fruition since MTA makes the ultimate choice and Paturkey appoints the ... oooo ... nevermind ... well, we'll see ...
But yeah, the thinking behind the "let's get rid of the 32's and up" WAS a real plan ... if there's just 143's and 160's, CONEY can fix 'em, why do we have so MANY car shops ... THAT surprised me in the "braincramping" (the folks in Albany were AMAZED that there was more than ONE car shop in the system) ... but just like OPTO and eventually ATC in 40 years, they plan to have only ONE car shop eventually and budget pressures caused them to think of ways to get it down to two in the next year or two (also not going to happen) ...
Don't ya just LOVE Joe Bruno and his gasbag chorus?
This makes no sense. I can see them putting out these rumors to scare people and have them DEMAND a fare hike instead, but there's no way any of these express removals and cutbacks to shuttles are happening.
Yeah, don't quite know WHAT to make of it, and as I repeatedly point out, the outcome of any of this is ENTIRELY in the hands of the MTA to consider or reject any of these "ideas" from folks who have no idea of what a subway LOOKS like, much less having actually ridden one. But what we have here is a collection of study groups offering (ahem) "options" and nothing more. And to the uninformed to participate in these braincramp exercises, it would seemingly "make sense" if you had no idea of how things work on the BMT. Their "logic" is that these lines are "short runs," "Coney Island is closed, so shuttles will suffice" and the same kind of logic that, were it not for community outrage, would have killed the Franklin shuttle years ago.
This weekend, Sheldon Silver was overheard suggesting "surcharges" on top of everything to balance the budget, and Bruno wants rent stabilization in NYC and *ALL* transit subsidies abolished from the budget. That would mean that MTA has to make up the money somehow and has already indicated that this isn't possible - that's why you get legislative aides cooking up schemes like this in the neverending game of budget brinksmanship that results in no budget at all, certainly never on time.
Stay tuned - "State of the State" is this Wednesday at noon, "Budget School" and "Executive Message" (budget release) is NEXT Wednesday. We'll all get to see actual, proposed numbers THEN ...
So those who voted for Paturkey and their GOP cronies are about to get it rammed up their snout. Political reasoning? Same as Caso did in Nassau for years - stuff it up their stovepipe NOW, and they'll forget all about it in two years and vote for me again ... always worked, will again. The next two years are the political X files, and in any two year gap between "real" elections, the politicos hand out the bacon to their buddies and shaft everyone else. Bend over, pope on a rope ...
New Yorker might get a better deal from their elected representatives if voters acted as if their I.Q. scores were over 75 or so. But no, city voters turn out in mindless, sheep-like, knee-jerk fashion for whatever schmuck bribed his way to the Democratic nomination, while suburban and upstate voters turn out in mindless, sheep-like, knee-jerk fashion for whatever schmuck bribed his way to the Republican nomination. A little swing voting would work wonders.
You betcha ... too late now though. There is expected to be a "gentrification" of public housing as webmaster cannot afford their $4500 a month loft rent and move to Stuyvesant or Marble Hill. I tell ya, as an observer of politics for better than 30 years now, I've never seen ANYTHING as cynical or criminal as what our susagecrafters are about to unleash on us ...
But hey, we're all shivering in our bomb shelters, fearing our OWN POLITICIANS telling us we're going to die at any minute. And we LOVE it ... wish I could feel sympathetic, but if any terrorists wish to come up here where I am, I'd be willing to make them ham hocks and feed them to the bears. But THIS time, the suburbs are going to get a sphincterful of "compassionate conservatism" in their tax bill ... I couldn't get OVER the numbers I was shown with GLEE from a few oldtimers with the "regime" in Smallbany ... winter heating bills and gasoline will give them a clue in the coming weeks.
Oh yeah, NEW gas tax, NEW beer, wine and soda taxes, additional cigarette taxes, and gambling EVERYWHERE EXCEPT NYC ... if folks in the city thought the state was shafting them before, wowsers ... but it's going to be FAR WORSE in Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, Rockland, Putnam, Sullivan, Orange and Dutchess counties ...
"State of the State" is THIS coming Wednesday at NOON ... "we are 13" WILL carry it live via NY Network (tape it) and ONE week later, "Budget school" (also carried on your PBS live) where the RELEASE of the budget documents will occur. It's at the printer's now and I've SEEN advance copies ... agencies nuked, mass layoffs, and some seriously NASTY stuff already in there - and THEN the legislature starts dickering over it and going nowhere ...
Just circuses, no bread ... :(
I don't see that happening but then again anything is possible. Not to mention almost non existent A/C on cars equipped with them, the trouble plagued R44's, heavy crime, the subway was just a jungle in those days.
I'm not too worried about deferred maintenance because its consequences are now well-known. Even the most obtuse transit managers know that it's just not worth the (temporary) savings.
AHhhhhhhh ... but does Joe BRUNO? He's the man who actually RUNS the state (cute pony farmer image-building in the Times notwithstanding) ... ulitmately it's up to the MTA who will have to play the budget cards they're dealt ...
But as far as Bruno is concerned, NYC resident can flipping walk. Oh yeah, OTHER big news ... NYC "rent stabilization" expires in JUNE ... there will NOT be a budget before then. As part of the "solution to the discal crisis, Joe Bruno will END ALL RENT CONTROL ... SET IN STONE, WORD ...
And this applies to "public housing" as well! "What the traffic will bear without excessive vacancies" will BE the price! No joke, it's IN there. :(
But as far as Bruno is concerned, NYC resident can flipping walk. Oh yeah, OTHER big news ... NYC "rent stabilization" expires in JUNE ... there will NOT be a budget before then. As part of the "solution to the fiscal crisis, Joe Bruno will END ALL RENT CONTROL ... SET IN STONE, WORD ...
If Joe Bruno succeeds in ending rent control, he'll be a hero in my eyes. Rent control is a ludicrous anachronism that is a big reason why New York is the nation's laughingstock. It was never meant to be anything but an emergency measure to deal with the disruptions caused by World War II. It has turned into a self-perpetuating monster that threatens to devour the city.
rent control may be imperfect, (I do electrical repairs, upgrades in resiential buildings in the Bay Area where SF, Berkeley, and Oakland have various levels of same) but without SOME restraints, ALL of Manhattan would long ago have become PARK Ave, and the workers would all be commuting from Trenton. Almost ALL of the anti-control agit-prop over the years has claimed rent control prevents new construction, despite the FACT that most rent control EXEMPTS new construction. As a further comment, the lack of sufficient housing in this nation supposedly the "only superpower" is to me acutely embarassing and shameful. The "utility" of the homeless as a visible threat to workers who are too "uppity" is a disgrace.
Rent control in NYC will DIE in June ... DONE DEAL ... Joe Bruno needs a new pair of gambling shoes ... and he intends to GET them, and screw YOU. Joe Bruno is ABOVE the "deficit" ... BORROW and SPEND ...
ALL of Manhattan would long ago have become PARK Ave, and the workers would all be commuting from Trenton.
Commuting from Trenton is obviously an exagerration, but if all of Manhattan became Park Avenue then SO WHAT? That's how the market works, people who want to live in a more convenient location should pay for the privilege. The current rent control system rewards people with sufficient connections to find a rent controlled apartment. Rent control discourages investment in the existing housing stock. Bronx burned in the 1970s on account of rent control.
If the government feels that certain people need to have lower rents than what the market will bear, then the government should subsidize these rents, so the landlord gets the same rent he would get in the market. And in that case such apartments should be available only to the infirmed or enfeebled.
The one time I didn't read all of the responses before making own.
You've said it much better than I did!
Joe Bruno will END ALL RENT CONTROL ... SET IN STONE, WORD ...
It's about time.
I'm not too worried about deferred maintenance because its consequences are now well-known. Even the most obtuse transit managers know that it's just not worth the (temporary) savings.
The likelihood of that happening again is low. NYC is just not the same as it was back then.
YAY! Hopefully this means that US&S signals and pneumatics will hang around for years to come! No replacement money is a GOOD things!
Sounds like a movie plot. :)
Yeah, but it was frighteningly real. Even the passenger mutinies. really. Truth stranger than fiction. Now, about the baby elephant Ringling Bros. lost off their circus train...
Has anyone been on a fan trip on the ex-Q BU train? If so, has it carried passengers on any subway sections? Which?
My memory is that wood car fan trip were never allowed in tunnel sections with passengers. The final 1300 series BU trip in 1958(?) covered Myrtle and Broadway and Canarsie but never touched an underground section. I'm wondering if the rule on wooden cars underground has been relaxed for the Museum.
The Transit Museum was supposed to have a fan trip on those cars in either 1998 or 1999. If was changed to the "D" types going to Canarsie instead of the orginal Lefferts Blvd to Rockaway Park trip. The wooden cars were not allowed in any subway tunnel, so even transfering at Euclid Ave. was not alowed. The orginal plan was the "D" type to Lefferts, The Q cars from Lefferts to Rockaway Park, and then back to Lefferts for the "D" type back to the museum. The cars could not be certified at that time. No other trips were planned with those cars again.
What happened to the IRT "Lo-V's"? They haven't been on a fan trip in about 3 years also.
You gotta go to Branford on both Member's Day (you have to be a member on that day but its worth it) and Autumn in New York. On both days you can spend the whole day riding the R-9, the R-17, the Low-V, the High-V, the "G" Car that WAS in the Transit Museum, a Bklyn Gate Car, a Bklyn PCC and a bunch of old trolleys. And on Members Day you get a choice of what car to operate. And the trackage at Branford is very scenic, almost like a mini version of the Rockaway Line.
You gotta go to Branford on ... Autumn in New York.
Autumn in New York is no more. Rather, it's been replaced with Subway Weekends. Quoting from the October issue of The Tripper, Branford's newsletter: "On the third weekend of each month May through October (May 17/18, Jun 21/22, Jul 19/20, Aug 16/17, Sep 20/21, Oct 18/19), a rapid transit car or train will be on display at the elevated station and will make one or two trips during the day. Our guest motorman promotion will be available on these days."
See y'all there?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was on that fantrip, Sat.August 30, 1980 to be exact.
The fantrip started at Prospect Park south bound track. The consist arrived with R-42's being used as horses. They uncoupled the R-42's and they took off. We boarded the BU's, highlights are as follows:
1) Movie run bys and poses on the Brighton Exp between Kings Hwy and Prospect Park. There were two round trips on the Brighton. We ventured up to Franklin Ave and back down the Shuttle tracing Luciano's steps. We slowed down before the tunnel and went through slow.
2) We left the Brighton through the Stillwell bypass and up the West End to Bay Parkway for lunch.
3) Various movie runs and poses on the West End. Back to Stillwell.
4) Various movie run bys and poses on the Sea Beach.
5) Back to Stillwell and up the Culver with poses and run bys.
6) Posing at Smith-9th Sts. End of trip.
It was a long day and a memorable one too.
Bill "Newkirk"
So you did "The Curve"?--that must have been just a little weird. Was Dougie on that trip? Did he become agitated as you passed Consumers Park? ;-)
But if you were at Smith-9th then you must have taken the subway section from Church Avenue? I am correct?
Thanks for the rundown, Bill!
Paul: I don't know if you could properly clasify them as fantrips but the BU's did run in passenger service at two Open House Events that I know of.
Saturday, October 19,1979: Coney Island Open House. Cars ran between the shop building around the outer loop track to the old bumping block at 86 Street Station on the Slow Beach Line.
Saturday, November 1,1980: 9 Avenue Shop Open House: Cars ran from 9 Avenue Yard via ramp and West End Express Track to s/o 62 Street, reversed and ran back to yard via northbound local track.
Larry, RedbirdR33
The new G train by Canarsie_R143, ONeilPhantom909 & Oren is out at
http://darkdefender187.tripod.com/nycta.html
The site's bandwidth might be exceeded if you try to access it...
I forgot to mention Robert Marerro, for his great works on BVE routes!!!
Did you get the R32 file needed to operate the E line?
?????
Sorry, the page or file you're looking for is not here.
?????
First
there is no current design for shoes that work of over and under running third rail.
second
Amtrak units did not and do not have shoes working on both over and under running third rail. the shoe mech's were changed on FL-9's when move to Penn was made from GCT.
Third.
The FL-9 was biggest farce EMD ever built, it never worked on third rail for more that 5 days. and other than optical show to leave shoes and beams on the units never worked in electric till CDOT's FL-9m's came on property, they worked great but were quikly disabled due to MofE being scared they would burn.
Fourth.
The GE's do work in electric and with first units accepted in 1996 they are now the undisputed king of dual mode's.
no they will not last as long as the FL-9's but for my sake I hope they get shitcanned in 10 so we can move to newer technologie (EPA, etc)one 40 year technologie shock in one's job history is enough.
fifth.
yes on inbound moves MNCW does leave diesel in low idle. so if train gaps its only 1 minutes to get it going on diesel vs. 3 if diesel was shut down. the diesel is usualy shut down when cab car goes by the north end acces stairways.
On outbound moves the diesel is started at mouth of tunnel but since it has to get up to operating temp, max oil pressure and 800 rpm first, it is not put on line till after 125 th street.
sixth.
Third rail power can only be trainlined on permanent coupled cars (mu married pairs or triplets)) not on Push-pull cars.
this is to avoid barbecueing the electricians, when pulling a 600 volt bus jumper the entire train has to be off third rail.
the electrician could never know which shoe is allive and feeding the train.
seventh.
The new NJT cars DO have low level door. its the last door on end of cab car in picture. the coaches will have two doors aqt each end of the car.
the Bi-levels will be run system wide and are not restricted to NEC. over 200 are ordered with option of 176 more.yes they can be run with comet 1 > 5.
eight.
The law about diesels running in tunnels only applies to GCT and Park avenue, Amtrak on its own has banned Diesels in Hudson tunnels and Penn station and East river tunnels.
Question:
What is so different about NYP's tunnels to PHL's? PHL's Penn Sta allows diesels to run in and out.
I noticed the latest inland route train #147 does not have enough time at NHV for an engine change, only 9 mins layover is alloted.
AEM7
What is so different about NYP's tunnels to PHL's? PHL's Penn Sta allows diesels to run in and out.
PHL isn't in a tunnel. The tracks are on the ground and the station is built above. The streets around 30th Street Station are on stilts, like Chicago, so going downstairs to get to the trains makes it seem as though the tracks are underground.
Photo of north-end exit from 30th Street Station
What is so different about NYP's tunnels to PHL's? PHL's Penn Sta allows diesels to run in and out.
PHL isn't in a tunnel. The tracks are on the ground and the station is built above. The streets around 30th Street Station are on stilts, like Chicago, so going downstairs to get to the trains makes it seem as though the tracks are underground.
Photo of north-end exit from 30th Street Station
Thank you for an interesting post. One question:
"Third rail power can only be trainlined on permanent coupled cars (mu married pairs or triplets)) not on Push-pull cars.
this is to avoid barbecueing the electricians, when pulling a 600 volt bus jumper the entire train has to be off third rail.
the electrician could never know which shoe is alive and feeding the train. "
I'm trying to picture this. A push-pull train comes in, and if, hypothetically, it were third rail-powered, you're saying the guys disassembling the consist are likely to step on a power shoe during their work and fry themselves? Or they'll need to use a jumper cable in areas of third rail gaps and it isn't safe because the point of contact will already be energized and dangerous (if so, why do you need the cable?)
Thank you again.
> the electrician could never know which shoe is alive and feeding the train
Why would push-pull cars have third rail shoes on them? They wouldn't have any motors. Power for lights and a/c would come from the loco (HEP). So the electrician would only need to check the loco.
He is referring to the LIRR DM problem w/ gapping out. One suggestion was to put a 3rd rail shoe on the cab cars and then have a 750V trainline. The problem is that isolating the trainline would prove to be a complex operation and that a maintainer un- or re-coupling cars might easily get zapped.
That's why cutout switches were invented back in the 1800's. Though they are only to be operated in no load conditions.
we were talking hypotetical to power single engine on push-pull consist in third rail mode.
ok lets say the locomotive is off third rail but if cars did have third rail shoes they are on the third rail.
a electrician pulling the jumpers would be subject to full blast only a foot away from him. imagine a 1300 amp welding arc at 600 volt without a mask.
I'm getting the drift now...it's close proximity to a potential arc. Not good for your health.
A trolley running trainline is not unheard of. Early NYCT equipment had just such an arrangement. 600 volts on any contact shoe of the train meant every contact shoe of the train was hot. That arrangement saw its last around the same time as the advent of the low voltage controller.
LIRRs big mistake was the size of the DE30 locos. The spacing of the contact shoes is too short to span some of the gaps in areas like the JO interlocking. By contrast, AMTRAKS locos that rely on 3rd rail power have a greater span between contact shoes so one loco will not gap (rear truck actually has 2 contact shoes per side).
A trolley running trainline is not unheard of. Early NYCT equipment had just such an arrangement. 600 volts on any contact shoe of the train meant every contact shoe of the train was hot. That arrangement saw its last around the same time as the advent of the low voltage controller.
LIRRs big mistake was the size of the DE30 locos. The spacing of the contact shoes is too short to span some of the gaps in areas like the JO interlocking. By contrast, AMTRAKS locos that rely on 3rd rail power have a greater span between contact shoes so one loco will not gap. (The rear truck actually has 2 contact shoes per side.)
there is no current design for shoes that work of over and under running third rail.
Well there is the old FL-9 design for dual position shoes.
The FL-9 was biggest farce EMD ever built, it never worked on third rail for more that 5 days. and other than optical show to leave shoes and beams on the units never worked in electric till CDOT's FL-9m's came on property, they worked great but were quikly disabled due to MofE being scared they would burn.
Well I've never heard that and its never been mentioned in any of my books. Time and time again I have sen the FL-9 listed as a milestone in locomotive design, not a farce. Do you have a source on this or is it just anecdotal?
yes on inbound moves MNCW does leave diesel in low idle. so if train gaps its only 1 minutes to get it going on diesel vs. 3 if diesel was shut down. the diesel is usualy shut down when cab car goes by the north end acces stairways.
On outbound moves the diesel is started at mouth of tunnel but since it has to get up to operating temp, max oil pressure and 800 rpm first, it is not put on line till after 125 th street.
Do you know why MNRR dosen't run its DM's in electric as far as possible? In theory they could boost the HP on the traction motors and have a 4000-6000hp unit on the juice and then 3200hp on the oil.
3rd rail electrification combined with straight DC locomotives built from an old diesel unit is the cheapest of all electrification alternatives.
The law about diesels running in tunnels only applies to GCT and Park avenue, Amtrak on its own has banned Diesels in Hudson tunnels and Penn station and East river tunnels.
My source states that the 1902 NY State law banned all exhaust producing locomotives south of the Harlem River starting in 1908.
Well I've never heard that and its never been mentioned in any of my books. Time and time again I have sen the FL-9 listed as a milestone in locomotive design, not a farce. Do you have a source on this or is it just anecdotal?
"Milestone"??? Please. It's widely regarded everywhere that those units were total failures. EMD had no clue how to design a straight electric, and no clue how to merge it with a diesel.
Further, the use of diesels under the wire by the New Haven was widely (and correctly) criticized in the day, and even today is regarded a idiodic virtually everywhere outside the US.
About all the FL-9 did was graft a lousy straight electric design onto a diesel design that was marginal even when it was new, and long obsolete today. The added weight lead to a bizzare wheel arrangement, and they never worked right anyway. I've never heard anyone claim they work. Even years ago, they were regarded as lousey...
As for the GE's, they have more HP, but GE's approach to meeting EPA slows them out of stations (yes, I know this is a controversial sore point with some). Two lighter, faster spooling turbos would have allowed them to load faster.
The DM-30's are nice when they actually work, but are too heavy and falling apart. They can run full time in electric mode, and I see them doing that as far as Mineola (and probbably to the limits of electric territory - this was how the LIRR ran them until the two write offs the other year, now they don't always. I hear they absolutely suck in the tunnels in diesel mode, though)
Further, the use of diesels under the wire by the New Haven was widely (and correctly) criticized in the day, and even today is regarded a idiodic virtually everywhere outside the US.
Well the whole purpose for the FL-9's was so that the NH could de-electrify the New Haven line to cut costs which was clearly a contaversial issue at the time. If you look at the New Haven system the use of DM locomotives makes perfect sence. You have a lot of lightly used, long branch lines that need to feed into an electric only terminal. Option one it to use a bunch of shittle trains providing two seat rides or to use DM's to provide one-seat rides.
Option one it to use a bunch of shittle trains providing two seat rides or to use DM's to provide one-seat rides.
What are shittle trains? I've never heard that term used before.
Shitty + Shuttle = Shittle
Shuttle trains are usually pretty shitty. Try riding the Amtrak Springfield Line on a non-through train...you'll see what I mean.
Springfield? The old Union Pacific doesn't come by there anymore.
I know, but the NYNH&H still does.
How about the current diesels and turbos AMTRAK is running up the west side line to Spuyten Duyvil before it joins the metro north main?
The Amtrak P32ACDM's are running with shoes in up position on Metro North. they lower the shoes south of DV drawbridge for use in Pennstation.
when barge of redbirds hit bridge a few months back all Amtrak trains ran into GCT in Diesel and sat shut down, with no power to coaches till departure time when diesel was fired up.
Mike I am glad your books are great source, but I operate the units on daily basis and am a proponent of not killing thousands of commuters due to Diesel Exhaust exposure, a know source of cancer causing materials.
unfortunatly Mr Joseph brennan had a site with the law posted but its no longer there. and the law is totaly unenforcable.
one reason the P32ACDM is not run north of MO in Electric is it was never designed to be a full time electric, and since the unit has no dynamic brake in electric mode , only airbrake (inverter used for other stuff in electric) it is restricted to 60 mph max per FRA rules.
Metro North's speeds in Bronx are higher than 60 on Harlem line.
I do not know if the law was ever sucessfully applied to Diesel locomotives. When the law was passed diesel locomotives were some 30 years in the future and its always been a bit of a gray area. However, as time went on, the non-use of diesels in poorly-ventilated tunnels was more of a common sence issue rather than statute. And don't forget that the main point of the law was for engineer visibility of signals, not passenger safety.
Anyway, the only point I was trying to make is that if a single engined DM train gaps out, it is not the end of the world if the diesel is just revved up to move it 30 feet. Another alternative would be to use batteries, as in the old NYC tri-power fleet.
designed to be a full time electric, and since the unit has no dynamic brake in electric mode , only airbrake (inverter used for other stuff in electric) it is restricted to 60 mph max per FRA rules.
Hmm, never heard of that rule before and I'm not sure of its correctness. If I am not mistaken, there exist some old MU's out there (either Silverliner II's in Philly or ACMU's in NYC) that lack dynamic braking and they can go over 60 mph.
Shame they never designed the P32's to be a full time electric. They could have been so much more useful that way while south of Crotan,
That law that you are referring to was passed during the time when steam locomotives were the dominant means of railroad motive power - the smoking from the stacks, the sparks and the cinders that were produced were the main reasons for the ban. Diesel locomotives were not in existence yet back then, but if they were, the ban would have been moot.
"Metro North's speeds in Bronx are higher than 60 on Harlem line."
Maybe the speed limit is over 60, but typical speed is 60 max. There is a stretch parallel to the Bronx River Parkway, and the cars and the train are usually going at comparable speeds.
There is a stretch parallel to the Bronx River Parkway, and the cars and the train are usually going at comparable speeds.
Oh? So they are running at 75mph!
: ) Elias
EXACTLY! If you have ever driven on the Bronx River Parkway, you know that <60 uses the right lane, 60-85 use the middle, and 85+ uses the left lane.
The speed limit here is 70, they give you 10 grace, I drive at about 74, and am seldom if ever passes, though I do pass others. Our roads are straight and smooth, and could easily support faster, but it seems as if no one has the urge or need to do so, after all, there is nobody in front of you to pass anyway.
I did drive to Bismarck (75 miles) at 98 mph one night. Nobody passed me not even a cop, who would have pulled over to the side to let me by in any event.
Elias
I don't know but when I do 80 with my train cars still pass me. when I go 90 at Mamaroneck and Larchmond even at 90 cars will pass the train.
are trains to slow ??? no but the police is.
I meant that in the Bronx the train tends to run roughly even with the vast majority of cars. An occasional car will zoom past everyone else, of course.
Was that you driving the last train I blew past on I-95 on my bike in Larchmont? Harley with flames on it. Yes, it's got a lot more left in it, too.
I wouldn't call the cops there slow, though. Very friendly actually (no, I wasn't busted for speeding there, was an out of date sticker the year the DMV TOLD me to save my new one cause my empire plates were comming)
You want to see fast cops, try the Mass Pike some day. They blow past you like you're standing still even when you're doing 80...
You mean they are even faster than the ones working for the Texas Department of Public Safety?
As I said, the speed limit in North Dakota is 70, and all police cruisers run at 65 mph. Confuses the hell out of motorists.
Elias
Thanks for that dose of reality, I guess I got a bit carried away with my thinking. Now that you make it so clear, I can see your point on the trainline bus for third rail, really the only way to do it would be to either restrict the coupling and uncoupling of cars to the nonelectrified sections, or have a cut out switch as Phil said, either way it would really take away from the flexibity of the trainset, and probably wouldn't work.
I'm still working on an over-under third rail shoe, gonna be kinda hard cause I'm stuck in philly till march, at least I'll have the MFL (under) and Patco (over) to compare.
Of course you could just string 25kvac constant tension Catenary, trade the M7s for Silverliner Vs and forget gapping, over or under and arcing (although I've seen some huge 11.5kv arcs on Arrows). That would be nice, run wire up the Empire corridor, all the way to Cow County (selkirk-land), AEM7s pulling Amfleet IIIs up the hudson under the wire passing MN ALP46s. Run a connector between GCT and Penn, and the AEM7s go right through GCT. Crap I'm drooling again, sorry lost it for a second, dreaming.
Thanks again.
Say, you wouldn't happen to know Jaap, would you? Real nice guy so far as I know, I mostly see him on the Railroad.net boards.
yeah I know him :-) ps for that 25Kv overhead we have to raise the roof in park avenue tunnel by about 3 feet or more. think you can convince the Park Avenue residence to open up the tunnel like it was in late 1800's, I hear there is a few Nimby's in that group but what hell we can dream right.
Well, if you can't go up....can you go down? (Ewwwww)
Actually, I could concieveably see, and man it'd be a mess, a total rebuild of those tunnels, since they're acient anyway. Then again, they don't really seem to be in bad shape at all. in any case, if they ever had to, a rebuild to allow pantograph clearances wouldn't be a bad idea, but then you'd have the trainshed at GCT to contend with. Of course, a rebuild of *that* wouldn't be a bad idea either, so if you had a few billion to toss into that segment as an upgrade, you could always plan for it. Actually, if they ever DO redo all that, they probbably should, since catenary-only operation would add a good amount of 'punch' to the sluggish NH line stuff (remove flakey DC, cut lots of weight) , allow Amtrak to run in in emergencies on the NEC, and allow for an eventual longer distance electrification (I'm thinking GCT -Albany here, long term, like 20 years from now) on the much more economic 25kv system (but maybe 12kv in GCT?)
The trouble being, like everything else, this would cost a lot of money. Like a lot of other things, the 'last mile' is the problem here :(
If an M2, M4, M6 can be equipped for catenary, why not an M-7? Recall that Metro-North's New Haven MUs share the same basic design as the LIRR's cars.
The M7 has only one propulsion system. the M2/M4/M5 has basicly two.
A camgroup with resistors for DC operation and Ignitron type controll on AC.
for M7 to work on AC overhead it not only needs a PantoGraph but also transformers etc.
Actually, I believe the ignitrons were exchanged for SCRs as part of a GE upgrade to the propulsion system. The M-2s most certainly were delivered with ignitrons - the book says so (GE orange boo, i've got running maintenance, need operator's). Ignitron to SCR upgrades are quite easy, and common in industry.
For the M-7 to be 'upgraded' to an AC/DC unit (heh ;) they would need a transformer, pan, and changeover stuff. The inverters, etc, could be fed off AC, if everyone did their homework. But you'd have a unit with a weight that would be so high per car (I'm guesstimating on the order of 145,000 to 150,000 if we use a Silverliner transformer as a benchmark) that you'd have serious performance problems in DC mode, as you'd quickly approach the limits of third rail. In AC mode, you'd have lousey performance too. The only real option is to simply cut weight, as the M-7's are already too heavy at 125,000 lbs a unit.
Thank you for that analysis.
Only possible problem with 25kv in the Park Avenue tunnel is arcing to car roofs due to the close clearences. When Amtrak was considering converting the NE Corridor to commerical frequency (60hz) at 25KV, the engineers doing the planning were going to use 12.5kv in the Hudson and Baltimore tunnels for the arcing reason.
Well after boarding my R42 L train and taking it to Bway Jct, I went downstairs to wait for the C train. A set of R38s came in, and guess who was the C/R? BMT Road Dogg! I must say that his aanoucements were on point and very clear. We chatted about our respective divisions, the latest B divsion coup among other things. I finally got off at 23St to meet with fellow cowrkers to celebrate two years in the "game". I definitely say that Road Dogg took some pointers from when he rode with a couple of months ago. Just kidding, I respect his game and he is truly a transit professional.
Well, that makes it five SubTalkers that you've run into so far in the past couple of weeks alone...David J. Greenger, BMDoobieW (now Railfan Window), RIPTA42HopeTunnel, BMT Road Dogg and BMTman (yours truly :). With the exception of BMT Road Dogg, the rest of us are civilians.
I think you're going for some kind of record here...:)
Technically, it was SIX you've run into so far, since you saw Jeremy as your train was departing GAP...
BTW, that should be David J. Greenberger (not Greenger).
Doug, when am I gonna see you? Or is the just the IRT your thing?
My line already has the railfan windows, so maybe I should paint my R32 and R38 C trains red. LOL
Nah...I used to ride the A train all the time...only needed YOUR C train if I was gonna grab a trip on the Frankie...LOL!
Thank you for the compliment, my friend. :)
But, hey! You forgot to mention that the whole time you were on my train, not a single A train passed us! Who says the C is slow? Not my interval!
I'll be looking for you to do a complete run with me soon. And I'll be back to ride your train to pick up some more pointers from the original "Transit Professional." But will it be the 3 again, or will I meet you on the 1 or 2? One never knows, does one?
Road Dogg come on over to the East side sometime.
I haven't forgotten about you, Dave. I've never seen the City Hall loop on the 6, so when I have time, I'll meet you up around 125th Street and run with you downtown, through the loop, and back to 125th.
Should be quite the experience! :)
Thank you for the compliment, my friend. :)
But, hey! You forgot to mention that the whole time you were on my train, not a single A train passed us! Who says the C is slow? Not my interval!
I'll be looking for you to do a complete run with me soon. And I'll be back to ride your train to pick up some more pointers from the original "Transit Professional." But will it be the 3 again, or will I meet you on the 1 or 2? One never knows, does one?
Dont forget you saw the Specialist,and he taught you everything you know LOL HAAHHAA
Here's one for you guys........
This line has no PASSENGER stations
Is not fully electrified,
Carries many trains daily.
Any ideas?
This is a NJT line! It gonna be a tough one, but lets see who can get it, or at least come close.
A freight line, right, perhaps on the Erie-Lackawanna Railroad?
Well NJT ownes several lines w/o passenger stations on them including the Southern Secondary, the Harrison Industrial track and the Bayonne Industrial Track, althought the latter now hosts the HLBR.
How about between Tuckahoe and Cape May Court House?
How about the Lehigh Valley from Aldene Junction to Newark?
No, cancel that. I forgot about the Roselle Park station.
This line has no PASSENGER stations
Is not fully electrified,
Carries many trains daily.
Any ideas?
This is a NJT line! It gonna be a tough one, but lets see who can get it, or at least come close
Pete: Its the HUDSON LINE extending a whoe 8/10 of a mile.
Mile
0.0 MMC (Meadowlands Maintenance Complex)
0.3 CAPE (Interlocking)
0.8 HUDSON (Interlocking, Amtrak)
Larry, RedbirdR33
You lost me here for a minute. Is that the route that crosses a swing bridge across the Passaic River just next to MMC, right by the Waterfront Connector and Midtown Direct Junction?
What about the abandoned Boonton portion of the line between the Montclair Connection and Hoboken. It's carrying freight trains, correct?
According to my NYC area ownership map, that segment of the line was never owned by NJT, it was owned by CR and then passed to NS.
The question has been answered.
Railfan Pete? Is that the answer?
Bingo.
The answer is the "Hudson Line". The Hudson line is approximately 1 mile long, meets up with the NEC at Hudson tower, and meets up with the M and E at Cape Int. It is used for Waterfront connection service (Hoboken-Bay Head) but it is mainly used as a lead to the MMC for NJT Newark Divison trains.
I knew that! But I just read the post.
These probably won't be popular suggestions, but they need to be made
Weekday service
1. 22:48 and 23:00 runs from New Lots will go to 148 St instead of terminating at 96 St and running lite to E 180 St (23:00 becomes 23:02 from New Lots)(by this time all #3 10 car trains should be in the Bronx anyway)
2. Eliminate the Shuttle Bus Service (except in G.O.s)
3. 23:12 and 23:24 runs from New Lots(to 96 St) cut, #4 service should be running there by this point if not, then changes will be made
4. Eliminate 22:27, 22:39, 22:51, and 23:03 runs from 148 St to New Lots
Last train to New Lots from 148 St will be at 22:15
5. Increase headways to 10-12 minutes during middays and weekends (#2 service would be increased to make up for this). Headways will decrease to 4-7 minutes (from 5-7) during the rush hour mainly between Chambers St and 135 St
6. Lenox #3 Shuttle S/B will begin at 22:26 and end at 05:00 and N/B will begin at 00:07 and end at 06:27 (10 minutes before the first NLTS train gets to 135 St)
7. Some rush hour trains will end/begin to South Ferry (schedule will only show up to Chambers St) and loop around (like #5 to Bowling Green) to provide shorter headways for the West Side (so #5 service at Flatbush won't have to be tampered with)
8. Since #2 service needs improvements, alternating #3 trains will go to E 238 St for about 1 hour (to Manhattan AM, from Manhattan PM), plus these trains will run Bronx local, allowing #2 service to run express in the Bronx along with #5 service for 45 minutes to 65 minutes. Or #2's can stay as locals and all #3 trains can run express in the Bronx (which ever one works better, since 7th Avenue riders deserve one seat express service as well)
I'm sure Lenox(and New Lots?) can be treated like Dyre with such low ridership in comparison to #2 service.
9. Some trains will run lite to South Ferry (from a yard) during the PM rush and run up to any one of the two terminals (in service)
10. If at all possible, build peak express <3> (or <2>) north of 96 St skipping all stops until 135 St (making the ride faster), the money saved from weekend (money saving) G.O.s making #3 service a shuttle (or running the buses in SOME cases) should be enough
Weekends
11. If possible, extended "Shuttle Train Service" on weekend mornings and nights, less thru service (like #5 weekend service) The Lenox Shuttle(or the "148 Street Shuttle" or even the Harlem Shuttle) will become more "famous" like the "Dyre Avenue Shuttle"
More on this later
Dang. I didn't even understand some points in the
FIRST half... to think there's a SECOND feed coming...
"I'm sure Lenox(and New Lots?) can be treated like Dyre with such low ridership in comparison to #2 service."
Remmeber that Lenox isn't an end in itself as much as a way to short turn trains. The #2 line above 96th doesn't need anywhere near the capacity the express needs below 96th. Lenox is a way to turn almost half those trains without sending them to 241st. Same purpose Bowling Green and Utica serve on the Lex.
I haven't found, anywhere on this site, information relating to the use of steam engines on the 3rd Avenue El or other El's early in the twentieth century before electrification. I'd like to learn more about this early propulsion sustem in rapid transit.
Jim Fish
They were known as "Forney engines" and the last two of them are rotting away in Alaska, in UNpreservable condition. If you'd like to check out more, google "forney engines nyc" or click the link below that will give you MUCH to ponder ... they were serious stuff ... library of Congress has footage of them as an MPEG video!
http://www.google.com/search?q=forney+engines+nyc&hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1
LOC MPEG here - HUGE file ... http://lcweb2.loc.gov/mbrs/lcmp002/m2b19440.mpg
QUICKTIME FORMAT:
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/mbrs/lcmp002/m2b19440.mov
But yeah, it's real ...
Try the book "The New York Elevated", which was mentioned on this site a day or so ago. It has quite a bit of background and photos about the pre-electric rapid transit era.
I have one old photo of a steam train on one of the els. Anyone have any info about this photo - where it may be, what line, timeframe, etc? It's a cool old photo. The photo I have must be a reprint of a much older photo because the paper doesn't seem older than the 50's, but obviously the photo is much older than that.
I have a question:
If elevated lines were too weak to carry heavy steel subway cars, how did they get away with supporting whole steam LOCOS?
Because the small Forney locos were quite lightweight. According to Steam Locomotive Info, the little Forneys of the New York Elevated weighed 45,400 lbs., with a weight on drivers of 29,400 lbs. (Chicago's Lake Street Elevated loco #8, preserved at the National Museum of Transport in St. Louis, weighs 60,000 lbs., with a weight on drivers of 38,000 lbs.). All of these locomotives are of the 0-4-4T classification.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do you think it would be pratical to run the Washington Metro 24/7?
Would there be logistical issues?
How about cost and safety issues, would it prevent such an idea from going forward?
I am a New Yorker, but familiar enough with the DC area from years of travelling there on a regular basis. The biggest issues would be in the safety and r.o.w. maintenance areas. No only customer safety, but the safety of r.o.w. workers performing track, signal, and communiations maintenance between trains running say, once every 30 minutes instead of not at all. There would also be additional labor costs to man the trains and stations.
The issue is demand. If the communities that support Metro want 24 hour service, Metro will have to provide it. Here in New York, that is not an issue. The NYC Transit subways and PATH run 24/7, and the major commuter rails generally run between 20 and 24 hours daily, depending on the line.
I'd agree that the biggest issue is demand. Cost is second biggest. Politics (suburban vs. urban) is a distant fourth, with the politics of labor relations (with the employee union) being a distant third.
There are plenty of metros that aren't 24/7. Even in NYC not all lines run at all times, or at least not all stations. Paris' Metro shuts down at about 1:30 (which I discovered just before an unplanned 3 mile walk back to my hotel after an evening of adventures).
Chicago has two 24/7 lines (Red, Blue), one that has only a 2 hour downtime nightly (Brown), two that shutdown around 1am to reopen around 6am - give or take an hour (Orange, Green, Purple), and one that only runs weekdays from 5am - 10pm (Yellow).
Paris' Metro shuts down at about 1:30 (which I discovered just before an unplanned 3 mile walk back to my hotel after an evening of adventures).
Hehe. Some parts of Paris are very walkable at that sort of time... the Rue St Dénis springs to mind... I recall one night when I walked the length of it having finished my adventures at Réaumur-Sebastopol and needing to get back to my hotel near the Odéon metro station. I had a very nice expensive ice cream in a café in the place St André des Arts too. Having said that, it wasn't quite 1:30 - I could have got a 4 train if I'd wanted, but I don't really like that line and rather needed the walk.
London OTOH really could do with 24 hour service on the Underground. There was a story a few weeks back about a clerk being paid Ł75 ($115) expenses for his taxi fare back home from Bow St Magistrates' Court because the Underground and Suburban sevices had stopped running for the night (IIRC he lived somewhere in South London Surrey). Plus it's not only people doing real jobs out at night in London - there's something called nightlife too! To be fair to LT, the night buses are good, but they don't half screw people in South London Surrey and North-West London Middlesex.
All but three NYC stations are full-time. Broad Street (J/M/Z) is closed on weekends, but the IRT Wall Street stations are a block east and west. 145th Street (3) and 148th Street-Lenox Terminal (3) are replaced by a shuttle bus at night. Every other station is open around the clock and has scheduled service every 20 minutes at worst. Not all lines run at night, so it can be a pain to make some trips, but at least it's possible.
From what I understand of the way Washington works, there's not enough nightlife or work demand to justify it. By and large Washington is a place you arrive at in the morning for work, then leave at night. While there is some reverse communiting going on (less affluent city folk going to suburbs to clean houses and diaper children, or commuting to places like Rockville), there's notenough going on overnight to justify service.
New York has always been a 24 hour a day city. When cable cars were introduced in large cities such as New York and Chicago in the 1880s after their initial success in San Francisco, they had a problem. The cable car systems required several hours of downtime each night for cable inspection/maintenance.
New York's unique solution -- a dual cable system which allowed one cable at a time to be shut down for maintenance while the cars kept operating.
It's much easier to maintain a system which doesn't need to be running 24x7, but one can always find creative ways to do so if the demand is there.
-- Ed Sachs
"It's much easier to maintain a system which doesn't need to be running 24x7, but one can always find creative ways to do so if the demand is there."
I personally think the issue of maintenance is a false one. NYCT is perfectly willing to impose GOs that shut down a line all night or all weekend. The difference is that they only do so when maintenance is needed, not every night or every weekend.
The real issue re 24 hour service is cost; simply more personnel are needed in trains, towers, and stations.
>>The real issue re 24 hour service is cost<<
IMHO the real issue is political. By and large, the "newer" systems, BART, METRO, MARTA, are suburban focused--the management includes NOONE who would be out after midnight and the "maintenance" window is just smoke. As it is, if the system is actually "quiet" by 1:30 and starts staging for rush by 5, thre is a very short window. This is precisely why some GO's happen eves and wknds on BART. In turn, during the 'off time' the "entire" system is not swarming with repair crews.
>>The real issue re 24 hour service is cost<<
IMHO the real issue is political. By and large, the "newer" systems, BART, METRO, MARTA, are suburban focused--the management includes NOONE who would be out after midnight and the "maintenance" window is just smoke. As it is, if the system is actually "quiet" by 1:30 and starts staging for rush by 5, thre is a very short window. This is precisely why some GO's happen eves and wknds on BART. In turn, during the 'off time' the "entire" system is not swarming with repair crews.
It wouldn't surprise me to see it go 24/7 someday. As stated in other threads, I too agree that the safety of track workers is a minor issue, trains can be single-tracked in work zones. I just don't see the demand being there unless it is a special event, i.e. New Years Eve, July 4th, etc. where you find masses of tourists and locals using the system late into the evening. It's only been within the last few years that service was extended to 2 am.
24/7 service is not possible for the same reason it isn't possible in London. No trackwork could be performed. The system needs to be closed for the maintenance of trains, tracks, and stations. If the need existed, a bus system like that in Philly could probably be established.
NOT!!!
The L route in NY is two track, yet necessary trackwork gets done without shutting down the entire route. There is NO OBJECTIVE impediment to 24/7 service on the DC Metro, or BART for that matter. The ONLY excuse is cost/ridership. In a 100 route mile system, how many miles of trackway are being repaired any given night? Certainly not both tracks on every route. Car repair is totally independent of service hours. The unwillingness of the newer suburban oriented systems to accomodate late night or Saturday morning workers (Metro opens @ 8 AM!!) users is entirely political IMHO.
The obstacle to 24 hour service in these location is that for the most part, there isn't demand for such service.
The demand IS there--it is just ignored. See
>>http://www.transcoalition.org/nightbart/<<
Time and again the calculus for many of us is--will _______ play so late we can't get home on BART? Then it is "parking in SF--what a drag!" Or "Sure I'd use BART if I could get back, but ..."
The L is one line. If the entire NYC subway were 2 track, it would be irrelevant. The MTA can't say "the L train has 2 tracks so we are closing it every night". On WMATA, the entire system is 2 tracks, so they have a valid claim. Car maintenance is done overnight for the most part because of the large number of cars needed during rush hours. Car maintenance is not independent of service hours, the fewer hours the system runs, the more time that trains will be in the yard. Finally, what are you going to be doing before 8 AM on a weekend morning? Where do you need to go at that hour? I have taken the first train once and it was fairly crowded, but 60-90 minutes later, things are rather empty.
The MTA can't say "the L train has 2 tracks so we are closing it every night".
Yes it can. Just like it says "no-one uses Broad St, so we are closing it every weekend".
>> Finally, what are you going to be doing before 8 AM on a
weekend morning? Where do you need to go at that hour? <<
Well to be explicit, I had arrived at Union Station on the "Twilight Shoreliner" @ 6:30 AM and I wanted to get to my mother's home in the Aspen Hill neighborhood. As I was waiting for Metro to open many workers were arriving for their shifts in the various concessions at Union Station. Nice of Metro not to serve them.
But you have typified exactly the attitude I am so p$&(#% at. As an adult who has at times worked shifts ending after 2AM, enjoyed music events which have gone quite late --sometimes until nearly dawn, I have perfectly legitimate reasons to be out late/early. BTW my first 2:30-3 AM adventure at age 16 was coming home from an NMRA Annual Convention Banquet which ran late into the evening as attendees were expected to be staying at the convention hotel. I however had to get back to my grandfather's house on the South Side which involved CTA Owl service L and buses.
We can't please everyone, DC isn't too much of an active place at night, although it is starting to have more nightlife. MANY things around here revolve around the Metro so it isn't a problem. As for the people arriving at 6:30 AM to get to work on the weekend, I understand their need for public transit, but the number of people traveling then is not great enough to warrant service. Better they be closed at 7 AM on Saturday than at 5:30 AM on a weekday.
I rode the 1 train this Sunday morning at 8:45. Most of the passengers in my car were standing.
I've had to stand before 8 on other Sundays.
And I was on a very crowded (not quite rush hour style, but close) 2 train a few weeks ago at 2 on a Sunday morning (late Saturday night).
We are talking DC here, not NYC. They are completely different ballparks. DC revolves around the federal government. Government closed, most of DC is closed. The government isn't open at 2 AM on Sunday or 8 AM on Saturday, and as a result, the Metro isn't either, since the bulk of Metro ridership is federal workers.
I was responding to this question of yours:
"Finally, what are you going to be doing before 8 AM on a weekend morning? Where do you need to go at that hour?"
Apparently a lot of people find places to go on weekend mornings. I didn't poll everyone in my car, but I did meet an Australian family on summer vacation on their way to the Statue of Liberty.
The big reason all-night service is important here is not that many people use it (though on some lines many people do use it) -- it's that it's always available just in case. If I stay out a bit later than I had planned, I can still get home. Without that assurance, a lot of people would buy cars and move out of the city.
The DC tourist attractions are not open in time for you to want to be downtown at 8. DC doesn't work the way New York does. The Metro serves the majority of the people who need it when the majority have places to go. Late nights except Fridays and Saturdays are not a time at which much service is needed, so there are no trains. I think buses could suffice during those hours anyway if the demand arose.
I have a question about Union Station (DC)- why is it low platform. Doesn't the volume warrant high platforms or do the Acela Expresses and some trains(MARC, VRE ?) use some high platforms I have not seen? Are there plans for high platforms. To me, it begs for high platforms.
Many of the platforms are high, although not all. I haven't been on a train that departed from or arrived at a low-level platform in quite a while, although I know that they are still used.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It isn't. About 2/3rds of the tracks have high platforms and the rest are low platforms. This is for the Superliners on what I call the upper level (track 16 I think is for them) and also on the lower level. The Acela Express and Metroliners use tracks 18, 19, and 20 usually, which are all high level. MARC platforms are high level, they tend to use platforms 9 to 13 or so in general. There doesn't appear to be anything lower than 9 but IDK why. VRE has to stop on the "lower level" as do all Amtrak trains going south of DC, since those are the only tracks to Virginia.
Thanks.your explanation was great. ALl 4 times I have been on trains goign past Washington. (Rode Carolinian, An Acela Regional and a round trip on the Crescent.)
I ask this follow up- any plans on making high platforms for the tracks going to Virginia and the rest fo the low platforms, espceially with the ADA and I'd think Washignton would be a key station. (I am not disabled but low platofrem,s are slow to unload, especially with luggage.
Does anyone have a track map for Union Station DC? I am a law abiding transit worker.
That would explain why you never saw any high level platforms. I do not know of any plans to raise up the platforms, but I don't really see much of a need. The low platform is a pain for unloading and I have traveled in parties with people with disabilities, but we managed. I do not know of any track maps existing.
as to maps and track #'s I recently saw a diagram in a railfan mag--not quite old enough to be PD. The lowest no. tracks were removed to accomodate Metro, I believe.
It started out all low platform as did Baltimore Penn and basicly everything south of Philly and west of NYC. Wilmington, Baltimore and part of Union Sta were raised for Meroliner Service in the late 60's. More have been raised, but the assignment of Superliners to the Capitol Ltd. and the Cardinal require some low platforms both main and tunnel level. (Good reason not to use Superliners on those trains IMHO.)
Far worse in my view is the poor access to/from the tunnel tracks. Walking past the power may be interesting for me but the average passenger would be happier with a shorter walk to the coaches.
... Superliners [on] the Capitol Ltd. and the Cardinal require some low platforms ... good reason not to use Superliners on those trains ...
I've not ridden the Capitol Ltd. but I have ridden the Cardinal as far as Staunton, Virginia and the view from the Superliner is spectacular. Now that they've banned smoking on that train you can enjoy the viewing car (which was formerly the smoking car) and the climb through the Shenandoahs is really something to see. So I'll gladly deal with a low platform in exchange for the view.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In fact the Capitol from DC to Pittsvurgh is my all time favorite route, BUT the view from a superliner car compared to a genuine DOME car is lke losing the railfan window. My first solo train trip on the Columbian--an all coach train later folded into the Capitol--I spent the night up in the dome falling asleep watching the block signals change. I have enjoyed the various Cardinal routes several times in ATK's early years again from the dome. I may be a lone voice, and I recognize the economics of bilevels from a labor standpoint, but I don't like them. I always wanted more dome cars and more slumbercoaches.
... the view from a superliner car compared to a genuine DOME car is lke losing the railfan window.
Well, I don't know if I'd go QUITE that far, but... my experience with true dome cars has been limited to Canada, most spectacularly on the Canadian from Vancouver to Toronto in 1975 (the old route over the Rockies) and several other trips on eastern routes, most recently in the summer of 2000 from Toronto to Montréal. And I agree, they're nicer - you're facing forward instead of angled to one side, and you've got a view out the front of the car.
One of these days I'll ride the Canadian again... they still run domes :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I read in an earlier post of mine on the MTA reverting back to the old grafitti days that the MTA was going to raise subway fares to $2.50. Now, I'm not a new yorker, but please.
The MTA's new slogan is not "going your way", but "fork it over!".
Another one they're considering is "Your money's coming our way."
A pack of cigarettes will set you back MORE than $7.00 ... a subway ride is CHEAP at $5 a blow. Hell the HOOKERS are getting $100 a ... ummm ... brake pipe reduction. :)
with a self-lapping lap dance at that...
Amen and Amen ... as Paturkey has said to many foreign investor corporations that he and Joe Bruno have shaken down only to see them set up shop in Bubbaland (this dog won't hunt) ... "New York is a high cost state" ... and that cost is the campaign fund. Wonder how local 199 is going to make out after turning over their PENSION FUND to the Bruno unit. Boowahahahahaha ...
Sorry for the politics, but I'm sitting here like a giddy little schoolgirl REVELLING in all I've said was going to come to pass about to ... Paturkey fluff show this coming WEDNESDAY, REALITY of the floorshow made public NEXT Wednesday ... for all the qwap I've taken for "being political" what's about to whack ANYONE who owns their own home is going to be nothing short of ... "I told you so, neener neener" ... For all the crap, sure hope folks will be watching the jaw dropping down the state capit-hole to mark THAT midnight. Wowsers ...
NYS ... BIE ... IN The hole, IN the hole ... SPEAK ELEPHANT! Whoo-hoo.
Remember your judas politicians in elephantine dress. For $2.50 the average (read: working stiff) rider who commutes to work is gonna have to cough up:
$10 extra per week
$40 extra per month
$520 (!) extra per year
on transportation to and from work. HOW IS THIS GOOD FOR THE LOCAL ECONOMY? Folks who would have spent these dollars on local businesses will now kick it into Bruno & Co.'s coffers. Also, what service improvements are we getting for our extra $2 a day?
Fuggem ... THAT is the republican way, always has been. BOTH parties steal from the public till, but as we all know from EXPERIENCE, at least the DEMOCRATS spread it around. SCREW the public. As long as Exxon/Mobil, Enron (they're BACK!) and Halliburton get rich, it'll trickle down. Just make sure you buy your subway umbrella before hitting the street, and make sure there's fresh subway batteries so you can hear the announcements on the radio as to the groovy "color of the day" for security. No flashes, please.
But if the fare offends anyone, please come to one of our FINE casinos, located conveniently near a resort of your choice. :\
It obviously that Mikey Bloomberg has just succeeded in his City's Proposed Plan by turning NYC into the 2nd Beverly Hill.
MTA!..GOING THE WRONG WAY!
Bloomie has NOTHING to do with ANY of this ... bash him if you must, but NYC does *NOT* control the suways, hasn't since 1966 or so ... MTA is PATURKEY'S animal (and really Joe Bruno, master of Rent control - you'll see come June) ... Bloomie's a bad mayor, but not for THIS reason.
Shrub, Paturkey, and Bruno - NOT going your way, let's kick Saddam's butt instead while the North Koreans REALLY make nukes ... whoop! Prohibited thought, I've been awake for 31 hours because I cannot go home because the road ain't been plowed here in smallbany ... betcha it'd be different if the LEGISLATURE was in session, but it isn't so screw us, and screw NYC ... as long as the corporate calves are fattened ...
But blaming Bloomie for ANY of this? It's the STATE that determines what NYC gets for nearly 30 years now. And Bruno's determined that YOU PEOPLE get squat ... word ... sorry ...
But let's not forget Mayor Doomberg should be, as he said during the MTA/TWU negotiations las month "speaking for 8 million New Yorkers and their interests". He said that on television, but now his silence is thunderous.
HE shouldn't have bothered, but it takes politicos a while to realize how powerless they really are. I mean, let's get real here - 8 million New Yorkers vs. 160 million STOCKHOLDERS? Nope.
Bloomie can't influence the Paturkey any more than he can get the ROADS plowed upstate. And ain't NOBODY doing THAT ... I'm stuck here on a hilltop, been awake for 34 hours ... I'm going to go crash out on the couch in the atrium because I *KNOW* nobody will hear my screams. But yeah, forgive me, I'm stoned from lack of sleep AGAIN. I really really believed our "weathercritters" from Dallas and Atlanta that it was merely raining here - we've got 22 inches of snow on top of the 48 inches we already had here west of Smallbany. But since the legislature is NOT in session, we can all go to hell too ...
Thanks, Joe Bruno! Thanks, Absentee Goobernor Thanks for making New York what it once was again in all its glory - an arctic region covered with ice. :(
Eventually, Binney Landen and his pal SADDOM will have their a** whooped pretty soon. By then, Miss Hilary and Schumer Paturkey and Bloomberg will have their last laugh. The North Koreans? Forget Them! They can't even harm a fly. As for as Bruno is concerned, well what can I say, the guy is Paturkey's side-kick.
Bin Laden and Saddam have nothing to do with one another, they are certainly not "pals."
And any country that can get NUCULAR (Homer Simpson's words, not mine) weapons, can hurt lots of people.
North Korea is more dangerous, but Harry Truman isn't our current president's father.
That clown in the wHITE hOUSE pronounces it NUCULAR, also. The SCARY thing about it is that unlike Homer, bu$h has his finger on the BUTTON.
Homer once had his finger on the button.
He pulled a Homer Simpson and averted a meltdown.
That's only a proposal, and I doubt that it would be hiked that high, it would be complete bullshit & as for reverting to the graffiti/deferred maintenance days, I don't see that happening but anything is possible. The MTA is NOT going our way and the new slogan could be "going to our pockets is your money" :-\.
Please?! Well IF you WERE a New Yorker, you would feel different about this, believe me. Lets say the fare is hiked to $2.50 and you know how the system is, you will NOT spend $5 for a round trip ride in the current service they provide. Of course, this was just a example. A $2.50 fare won't come for probably at least 10 years but if the MTA is really deep in the hole[which I think they are not] that would be sooner but a possible $2 fare is the best estimate that could be worked with at this moment.
I find a $2 fare right now as fine, both in my eyes {I'm a regular customer} and for the TA to work their budget. And I'm almost definite this will be the fare that comes along next no matter how many proposals of either $1.75, $2.25, or $2.50 come along. $2 was the original prediction, and reading the plans on the MTA website, it looks like they don't need any more, and I'm sure they won't ask for more.
the fare should be 50c .................!!!
With 1/2 fare on weekends!
thankz !! yea !
BTW The back to old graffiti days has become a reality. Just get a good look at R32 3642 and 3643. I saw them last night on an out of service track on Union Tpke and I could not believe my eyes. They were all marked up-badly!
Too bad I did not have my camera handy. I assume that was the reason why the train was OOS. It had R signs on it.
What a mess!
PS About a 2.50 fare-get the heck outta here-NO WAY!
2.00 or forget it-I'll learn how to drive!
#3642 E 8 Ave Queens Blvd Express
I have toying with this idea for three months and have not found any legal reasons why it could not be done.
If the fare goes too high, one could simply create a "commuting club". This club would consist of people who aren't thrilled with the level or quality of service of the main subsidized system and would use a "second system" of new buses and vans to meet their commuting needs instead. It is not legal for non-franchised or non-MTA bus services to run within or between boroughs, but if that service is operated for a private entity, such as a business's employees or some organization, you can run wherever you need to with whatever equipment you like. It would be free to join such a club and could mitigate the effect of a fare increase or service cuts that are deemed too harsh. Obviously, these routes could serve along existing transit routes, but could also serve new markets, like Downtown Brooklyn to Flushing.
Any thoughts?
Several workers from my company have done something similar, commuting together on a chartered small bus from Bergen County. While they've been doing it since 1994, it hasn't always been easy, as it required coordination of schedules. Fortunately, work-schedule coordination is fairly easy where I work given the nature of the company, but at many employers it would be considerably harder.
Except this would be a public pooling service. In other words, get a free membership, ride our system. From what I understand, it's perfectly legal. It is done quite a bit in Bay Ridge and surrounding areas. There is also a bus like that on Ocean Parkway.
This would be on a much larger scale and no prearrangement other than the membership would be required.
I knew someone who ran a private van pool from Manhattan to Holmdel NJ from maybe 1975 to 1985. It took a lot of his time. The driver (if not him) got a free ride but no pay. If the driver had been paid it wouldn't have made economic sense.
>>> This club would consist of people who aren't thrilled with the level or quality of service of the main subsidized system and would use a "second system" of new buses and vans to meet their commuting needs instead. <<<
You are assuming that this "club" could purchase or lease the necessary equipment, maintain the equipment and provide reliable operators of the equipment at a price significantly less than the new fare. Quite a tall order.
Tom
I just dropped off 60 subway calendars at GCT. Bewteen an unexpected slow down by months end and me taking back some unsold copies was enough to farm out those calendars.
The Transit Museum still has a couple of LIRR Sunrise Trail calendars and some NH ones too. The LIRR calendar is a sellout, so if you're looking for one, the gift shop may still have one. Call first.
The Transit Museum closed their gift shop in Times Square.
Any questions regarding the subway calendar, plese use my e-mail above.
Bill "Newkirk"
Geez ... I can't believe you still have any LEFT ... For those who STILL don't own one or MORE of Unca Bill's 2003 WTC Memorial calendar as yet (with every month showing EXQUISITE shots of NYC subways with WTC somewhere in the distance) you've GOTTA get one! I'm truly amazed that this year's true "collectors edition" has any copies left unsold at this point.
BREATHTAKING is an understatement! Unca Selkirk says this one's a "gotta have" ...
To get one for yourself if you can't make the trip to the store ... email Unca Bill here:
mailto:newkirk@optonline.net
Thanks Unca Kev !
Bill "Newkirk"
The third one to appear in the "safety series", along with usual diagonal stripes.
"Hold onto your youth, your dreams, and while you're at it, the handrails"
Got this one at IRT Penn Station (1)(2)(3)(9) MVM #0650. You have been alerted !
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks for the alert. I will try to pick one of those up this week.
---Brian
Hello Subtalk! This thread is designed to get feedback on which Locomotives look the best.
This thread is not limited to just saying which locomotive you think looks best. You may have a discussion on the topic if you choose.
My vote goes to the Genesis. Something about it gives it a majestic appearence.
HAVE FUN :-D!!
My favourite has to be the Iron Duke, with its 7'0Ľ" gauge. :-D They don't build trains like that any more...
GG1
Bah! Genesis units look like a brick with a broken nose. It is possible for them to be salvaged with certain paint schemes that can mask their sheer uglyness (like the Amtrak Phaze V or VIA Renaissance schemes), but the Amtrak Phaze IV and MNRR paint jobs make them look even nastier.
Best looking locomotive of all time has to be the PRR GG-1. Best looking passenger locomotive currently is the EMD F-59PHI and the best freight locomotive is the SD-70M.
I think that the MNRR paint scheme makes them look pretty good. The Genesis is just so TALL! It's got a modern, timeless look with its crisp lines and such. Even the 1991 Amtrak units look new and good!
Best looking electric: the ACELA! ( Yes, I know it's a Bombardier product)
That's a Trainset, not a locomotive. A locomotive would be an HHP-8.
The GP38-2's of course!!!!!
No actually, although I like the GP38's quite a bit, I'll have to also vote for the Pennsylvania Railroad's GG1's. I've never seen one actually running, but have seen them at the Strasburg RR Museum, and of course in photos. They must've been quite a sight to behold in action.
I'm not a big fan of the Genesis units. I don't dislike them, just sort of indifferent to them. As for the ugliest....the new LIRR DM/DE30's have to be one of the ugliest - especially with the ribbed sides. I have hated them, but have kind of been warming up to them a bit as time goes one, I guess I'm getting used to them.
In summary - the most attractive engines - the GG1's.
Ahhh, the GG1's.....
As for the ugliest....the new LIRR DM/DE30's have to be one of the ugliest - especially with the ribbed sides. I have hated them, but have kind of been warming up to them a bit as time goes one, I guess I'm getting used to them.
Your reactions are different than mine. The more I look at the DM/DE30's, the uglier they look.
LOL, I'm trying my best to like the ugly SOB's. I keep trying to tell myself, "Okay, they're not that bad." After all we are stick with them for a LONG time. I know I'm kidding myself....
Best looking locomotives for me are classic steam, such as 4-4-0 from a century or more ago, NYC Hudsons and Niagras, of course the Pennsy K4 Pacific, &c. But choosing from what I've seen in routine service (although I did see PRR K4's and Reading G's in Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines passenger service when I was too young to appreciate them), I'll vote for the GG-1.
freight
gaudy Amtrak
plain Amtrak
classic
Conrail Bicentennial
classic in action
FL9
The GG1!
Elias
Best looking (all categories) of all time: the PRR GG-1
Best looking electric of all time: the PRR GG-1
Best looking diesel of all time (tie): the Baldwin Sharknose in PRR tuscan red and the Alco PA in the D&H warbonnet
Best looking steam (three way tie): PRR K4s, PRR M1a, PRR T1
Best looking modern electric: Eurostar
Best looking modern diesel: any modern wide cab, such as this C44-9WL, in the BCRail scheme
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The EMD eide caps look much better than the GE wide cabs. The EMD units have larger, non-square windows, and a more rounded hood. Overall EMD units are much less square and boxy than their GE counterparts, especially the radiator flares and the fuel tank.
Wow the T1 looks like it was a fine loco! How streamlined! Pity they don't build those now!
Eurostar - looks good, pity about it getting stuck on slow lines behind commuter trains in England and riding much worse than the Thalys or TGV in France and Belgium. Oh and all the stupidity you have to go through to even get onto the platform...
Wow the T1 looks like it was a fine loco! How streamlined! Pity they don't build those now!
The two prototypes (6110 was one of them) were excellent performers for the Pennsy. Unfortunately, the 50 nominally identical production units didn't turn out so well - poor steamers, from what I've been told. The biggest flaw in the T1 design, however, was that it was a non-articulated duplex - the front drivers tended to slip when starting because there was less weight on them, while it still had the rigid frame so it had issues with sharp curves, hard on track, etc. But they were beautiful, even after they lost the panels covering the drive wheels (maintenance considerations). Built in 1946, they were retired by 1951; none were saved.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For me its a 2 way tide.
Genesis
Eurostar
Ain't nothing can beat the GG-1 for looks.
Baldwin Sharks - Diesel
GG1 - Electric
---Brian
best steam NKP 2-8-4's
electric GG1 (like there is any competition)
diesel probably any one of several E's in passenger paint at the head of a pure streamliner (NO mismatched paint)
Q E's w/ the CZ for instance.
All time? GG-1
Current electric - AEM-7
Current diesel - Gennissessesese
Current MU - M-1
Oh come on! How can you pick the Genesis over the F59? The F59 has like roundness and like aerodynamics. The Genesis has suceeded in screwing up the Box Cab look. I mean how can you screw up a box cab design?! ALL THEY HAD TO DO WAS MAKE A BOX...AND THEY SCREWED IT UP! That takes real effort.
I think that the E60 is better looking than the Genesis. The E60 is a box and it tries to excell at being a box. Its not some hypocrite that tries to pretend to be streamlined. The E60 is a box and its not a afraid to show it which sort of gives it a grace.
Anyway, the best looking current electric is the HHP-8. The AEM...well its just a toaster. You can't possibly like the design of something that looks more like a kitchen appliance than a locomotive.
The F-59? Gah. All the good looks of a corrugated steel shack and a fiberglass nose that looks like it came from JC Whitney.
The E-60 should be painted brick red because it looks like a brick, weighs a lot like a brick, and is about as attractive as a brick. It's everything that's wrong with industrial design in the US. At least the AEM-7 looks decent pulling a train.
The Metroliner MUs were funky, but they stunk otherwise.
The HHP-8 is too weird - short, rounded, and silver. even the ALP-46 looks beeter, though the LOK-2000 beats both hands down, and the class 101 (?) looks good too.
Well, today was suppoed to be another blast but eh, again the weatherdudes are wrong. For anyone who misses it I threw together (in about 90 minutes) another Subway related render, featuring nothing other than SNOW!
Snow day here
Well, they never promised much for the five boroughs, one to three inches. It's frustrating when the temperature is 33 and everyone north of us is getting the big snow.
www.forgotten-ny.com
It's even more frustrating when your college is under 24-36 inches of snow, it's STILL snowing, and you have to DRIVE up there tomorrow. Selkirk, if you hear about a grey sled on I-90, it may belong to me. I need to save on gas.
Dunno if I'll even know if there's a gray sled out there - we're socked in here without a hope in hell of seeing a payloader for a few days at least. Power went out last night, phones were out for the better part of the day ... upstate is CLOSED. :)
But if you shoot up a flare, might see it - everyone else seems to have had the sense to just not go anywhere. Anyone disappointed in the amounts they've got down south are MORE than welcome to send a few trucks up here, take all you want!
Don't complain. Be glad that it was 33 degrees! Snow is a major league nuisance to anyone who has to keep the trains running.
That's the best way. If you want to look at snow, it's always a short trip to the north. The rest of us who have to actually do things in the city don't have to put up with heaven's feces.
Very nice, but what happened to all the construction at Howard Beach, and how is it that I can read that flipdot sign?
I know I've posted this before, and I suppose I'm bragging, but I really like these shots I took a month ago:
Those are good. I should re-post the December 30, 2000 snowstorm shots I snapped for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Maybe I will.
Thank you. Yes, you should! I missed that snowstorm; I moved back from Illinois to New York on January 11, 2001.
Its a 3D render, not an actual photograph (which explains the sign). And the AirTrain station isn't there because I hate that ugly thing. :)
The beauty of 3D - you can make it how you want it. No AirTrain. And snow! If I had 'built' an R40 it would be there instead because that's how I want it :)
I know! Just pointing out that there are a few, um, inaccuracies.
I know you know. :) I just reiterated the fact to say I made it how I wanted it. If I wanted to be accurate I'd make it look like it hasn't been washed in a year.
BTW, you noticed that you can clearly see the sign, but I just noticed I forgot the front chains... oops, good thing we keep those doors locked! :-\
Not always. I once found the front storm door on a NB R-38 A unlocked. There was something wrong with the latch; the door simply wouldn't close all the way, even after the T/O fiddled with it. I had to hold it closed as we rounded the curve onto the Liberty el.
Are the front chains really supposed to serve a safety function? I can't imagine them stopping anyone from falling out of the train.
Those are very, very nice, David, thanks! I hope that you'll include the Brighton on your next snow day adventures.
I'm surprised he got that all in one day, that looks to me like a 2 day affair.
One day, and I didn't start until the tail end of the morning rush, though it was dark by the time I finished. I included my route.
I was surprised too, especially since it seems that the Slow Beach was on the agenda of that day's adventure. That in itself must have taken a lot of time. :-)
Very simply...
Why does the W run local through the Montague tunnel on weekends?
There's already R and N local service.
www.forgotten-ny.com
No, the N was cut back to Pacific on 9/8. The W fills precisely the role the N used to fill north of Pacific nights and weekends: a local to Astoria.
At least does the Sea Beach still run express on 4th Avenue on weekends? I hate it that it is a local. To me it is an express, or should be.
The N does run express via 4 Avenue from Pacific St to 59 Street on weekends then local to 86 St/Gravesend.
No, the Sea Beach is a line between 59th Street on the 4th Avenue line and the Stillwell Avenue terminal. It doesn't run anywhere, local or express. It's a set of tracks and stations, mostly in an open cut.
The N, which is the route that generally serves the Sea Beach line, does run express on 4th Avenue on weekends. It has to be on the express track at Pacific to relay. The R and W run local, or else they'd get stuck behind N's waiting to relay. On weekdays, the N and W run express and the M and R run local.
Remember to remind me to get you a wee pen knife next Christmas so you will have the pleasure of splitting hairs with the best equipment available. OK, you can separate the line and the train but to most of us they are one and the same---AND TO ME THEY WILL ALWAYS BE THAT NO MATTER HOW MANY HAIRS YOU SPLIT. However, I appreciate your taking the time to answer my post and attempt to set me straight.
Well, I happen to think that the TA should combine the Jamaica line and the Sea Beach line into one super line. Think about it: The train could run from Jamaica Center down B'way/B'klyn, then through the Montague tunnel to 4th Ave., then down the Sea Beach. That'd be the ultimate BMT line, huh, Fred?? :)
Something like that was a reality for a short time after 9/11/01:
(J) Jamaica Center - 95th St Fort Hamilton
(M) Metropolitan Ave - Coney Island (via Sea Beach)
I remember-
And they just called it the J.
Well, what about the RJ from 1968? 168th in Jamaica Queens to 95th in Bay Ridge.
That proves it, yellow and brown go GOOD together. :)
Well, what about the RJ from 1968? 168th in Jamaica Queens to 95th in Bay Ridge.
Sadly, the Subway no longer gets to 168th St :-( the RJ must have been a rather good route - shame it took the wrong branch at 59th St! I really think the M train was the star of the show when it got re-routed onto the Sea Beach (although you'd probably say it took the wrong branch at Myrtle/Broadway - never fear, the Myrt is quite nice!)!
Sadly, the Subway no longer gets to 168th St :-(
What are you talking about? The 1/9 and A/C both go to 168th.
Oh, you mean that other 168th?
Oh, you mean that other 168th?
Lol, yeah, and just think, if the Jamaica El had survived, we would have the possibility of having a J train from 168th Street to 168th Street via Chrystie and West 4th. Well, we did gain the possibility of Jamaica Center to Jamaica Center (Jamica to Queens Blvd). Just think of the confusion, "This is a 168th Street bound J Train"....."This is the J train to Jamaica Center"....now which is the northern terminal.....
Didn't I once see a picture of a Standard that almost made it to 170th Street?
Yes, the one with its forward end hanging off the El, its front truck lying at curbside. OUCH!
wayne
Hey, we need a letter code for it:
I'd call it the NJ, only that sounds like New Jersey- no good.
JN just ain't got a good ring to it.
What do you think we should call it, Fred? How does JX strike you?
Not quite Tony. You have got to get the Sea Beach out of the Montague rat hole. Then we can think about a super line like you mentioned. It might fly.
Tony, remember Montague and Sea Beach mixed together in the same sentence is not the best of options ;-). Oh, the line has no choice but to go through the rathole [or we could get creative and reconnect the Nassau loop to the Broadway line]. That could mark a return of the Sea Beach express as well and you could bring the M to the Sea Beach from the West End to run local [hey we all can fantasize can't we].
Thank you, but I don't observe Christmas. My tradition is to give and receive gifts of food on Purim, which falls this year on March 18. I do appreciate the gesture of kindness.
Arrgh... Purim on 18 March... and I'll be in Arizona with my non-Jewish grandchildren :-( But it can't be helped, Alexander will turn 6 on the 20th (and we won't discuss how old I'll turn on the 19th) and I've only missed one of his birthdays so far... don't plan to miss another one for the forseeable future. Oh well, maybe my daughter will let me commandeer her kitchen to make Hamentaschen and ghorayebah...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Happy birthday!
Ghorayebah?
Ghorayebah?
Also known as Bracelets of the Queen. They are of Middle Eastern origin, I believe. Basically, they are a delicate butter cookie shaped like a bracelet and adorned with chopped pistachio nuts, which represent the gems.
Recipe to follow in email.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Got it. Thanks! If I'm feeling ambitious in March, I'll give it a try.
Jewish cuisine, eh? The cookie sounds pretty appetizing to me, but when it comes to Jewish food I will take Manischewitz's yolk free noodles and bow ties any time. You've got to try them.
I have, unfortunately. I'll take the ghorayebah.
Then March 18th it is. Is a wee pen knife you want or something else? If it is food maybe I can ship you a box of Manischewitz's yolk free bowtie pasta. It is very tasty and they cook up real well. I bought five pounds of them some time back and use them in soup and mix them with veggies. Or maybe you would like a week's worth of a subway speed pass. You call it ace.
Surprise me!
"Remember to remind me to get you a wee pen knife next Christmas ..."
Don't you mean next Chanukkah?
Yes Marty, I fouled up again. Stupid of me. Greenberger has got to be a Jewish name and I just wasn't concentrating when I wrote my post. Read my other ones. He may not want a pen knife so I asked if he wanted some Manischewitz's noodles or bow ties, yolk free, of course. I eat them all the time with veggies and in soup, sometimes just with some margerine. Anyway, I will await his answer.
Actually to put it in a nutshell, the N runs express between Pacific and 59th Streets 24/7, and NEVER MAKES LOCAL STOPS. In addition, the R overnight shuttle (extended to Pacific Street), rus express between 36th and Pacific Street only, local south of 36th Street.
I thought the R shuttle in the nighttime runs express northbound only then local southbound.
See the latest subway map plus there is NO SWITCH from the express (Dekalb bypass) track to the local track at Pacific Street. The switch is from local to express about 100 feet north of the station, before the reverse layup switch from N/B to S/B express.
You're very wrong.Back on 9/8/02,the N and W flip flopped service so now the N only runs in Brooklyn on weekend's while the W goes up to Astoria,replacing the N that's why it's local.
Mea culpa.
Today, it was Never, Rarely and Wait an hour....
www.forgotten-ny.com
This has been asked quite a few times, but I'll answer for you. The W was flipped with N service on weekends because it was to shaft the Sea Beach on purpose ;-). All jokes aside, it replaces N service[its cut back as a shuttle to Pacific St] on weekends in Manhattan & Queens and it was done to make the W not look like a useless line.
No, it was done so there'd be full-time direct access between Manhattan and Stillwell. As of 9/8/01, the W is the only route to serve Stillwell, so the W was extended to Manhattan. There being no need for all of the N, Q, R, and W in Manhattan on weekends, the N was the obvious choice to be pared back to Brooklyn. (It has the same north terminal as the W; the R serves a different corridor in Queens and it's difficult to terminate the Q at Atlantic, both for trains and for passengers.)
You wake up too early in the morning.
---Brian
Alternate hypothesis: he knows how to party til 3am.
No, Brian was right: I woke up at 4:30 in the morning and couldn't fall back asleep. I was meeting someone in Queens at 9:30, so by 7 I figured I'd just stay up.
I know it was done to serve Stillwell too and BTW, your date's wrong, its 9/8/02.
If you look back at the history of the West End prior to Chrystie Street, I believe there was never express service on weekends. It was always local.
The Brighton and the Sea Beach were the expresses.
I could be wrong, though.
According to the route listings for 1966, posted on this site, the West End had express service via bridge Mon-Sat. There was also service via tunnel weekdays. Sundays it terminated at 36th St and didn't go to Manhattan at all.
I believe however that West End ridership has grown faster than Sea Beach ridership since 1966, so it may be fair to give the West End preference in 2004. Others have explained why it has preference now.
In 2004, I'm hoping the B is restored and West End service is via 6th Avenue once again, putting the N back on the bridge and the Broadway Express.
The B is most likely getting restored to Brooklyn but we'll have to see on the N and as for the West End, they should consider a peak express service in the future.
The West End will be a shuttle to 36th-CI
The Sea Beach will be a shuttle to 36-CI as well
the brighton line will be rebuilt into an eight or six track line with the franklin av shuttle extended to mytle av on the G
2 the E will connect to the montague st tunnel at cortlandt street
3 The M will operate on the brighton again
routes:stops listed:
Q 6th ave: atlantic,parkside-newkirk, kings highway-CI
Q peak broadway: atlantic, kings highway,brighton beach
N atlantic,AVE H-CI
W QB express,queens plaza-kings highway local
B atlantic ave, church,newkirk,and kings highway
lines D, E,and M: dekalb,atlantic,7th ave,prospect park, kings highway
Homo say what?Where the hell did you get this from?
rumor around at babylon tower yesterday
Where is Babylon tower? Definately not in NYC!
"Where is Babylon tower?"
Remember that the ancient city of Babylon is in what is now Iraq.
Since we are hearing rumors, here's one. I heard the ones responsible for turning the Sea Beach into a shuttle are currently making ourttheir wills because they feel they won't survive to see such a thing.
Let's hope that the discontinuance of direct Coney Island service via the West End and the Sea Beach Lines is only a rumor, not the real thing.
#3 West End Jeff
Don't worry Jeff, its just a outrageous rumor, we'll just see in the future. Cutting the Sea Beach & West End lines to full time shuttles is just plain dumb.
I definitely agree with you on that point.
#3 West End Jeff
Man! What were they smokin' and where can I get some????? The Franklin Shuttle has been downgraded. It would take a lot of work to extend it.
Obviously the person from the Babylon tower who brought out such idiotic ideas have been smokin too much!
He smuggled too much rumors into one post ;-). I agree that those proposed services it is just moronic, the person was smoking too much and cutting 2 lines while placing a HEAVY burden on 1 w/o justification is stupid.
Oh let Mayor Doomberg give a idea to the leaders of Nassau & Suffolk, ban smoking in towers that way we won't have to hear dumb shit like this. BTW I'M NOT SUGGESTING THIS!, I'm just being sarcastic ;-).
THERE'S ACTUALLY A BABYLON TOWER?
Do the people in there speak different languages or what?
You're thinking of Babel, not Babylon.
Babel and Babylon are the same thing.
"You're thinking of Babel, not Babylon."
Babble on !
Bill "Newkirk"
That is one mega bad rumor that is never gonna happen that's for sure.
This has come up before, nothing to worry about... Just a rumor.
dont think so
the email had the surveyers reports from the brighton line and was from a good freind of mine whoworks in that dept
That's pretty funny. I'm surprised you've hooked so many already. Anything involving new capital construction outside of Manhattan is DOA right now. I assume the supervisor's name happens to be Mike Crotch.
Exactly, this is one of the silliest rumors I ever heard, they will NOT cut off 2 lines that's just stupid but its only a rumor so I ain't taking it too seriously[at least not yet].
This has come up before, nothing to worry about... Just a rumor.
Homo say what?
Oh, classic! I haven't heard that in years! I must reintroduce that into my daily conmversations :)
---Brian
["Homo say what?"
"Oh, classic! I haven't heard that in years! I must reintroduce that into my daily conmversations :)"]
Sorry, but that line is not politically correct nowadays. The correct saying is "Person with alternate sexual lifestyle, say what"?
(Not that I know what 'say what' means!)
Well in some ways we must be correct in the terms we use, but for the most part you can take political correctness and shove up Hillary Clinton's ass as far as it will go, and if you don't choose her try it on some yo-yo on this website who will go nameless but, hint, hint, she hasn't a freaking clue.
I was assuming it was to do with "Homo sapiens" and casting doubt on whether the originator of the rumour could be regarded as "sapiens".
Wow! A double 4-track elevated into Brighton Beach! And bringing back the Manhattan Beach branch for the other tracks (those houses on East 16th St should have never been built on the ROW). And, yowsa, doubling the EL over Brighton Beach Avenue for 12 tracks!! I love it!! With Stillwell Avenue closed, I am sure we'll see the section between Stillwell and West 8th triple-decked for the new line! Yay - another Brighton Line video for me to do!!!
(man, what was in those tic-tacs I just took?)
--Mark
Hay I heard a rumor that they will be connecting Stillwell av to Station Island transit. this will tie in with the shuttles to 4th av
Joke
That makes sense, but will they be connecting West 8th Street with Station Side Transit?
Even more awesome rumor: they're going to extend the F & N lines to Stillwell Av in 2004! [smirk]
Hay how about the one extending the line from rockaway park across the marine park bridge back under ground on flatbush ave and ending with a transfer with the #2 at nostrand av. you never know what they are thinking and smoking out there
Ok putting all jokes and rumors aside, New York Transit is a great system, they must try to use it to bennifit the rider and not them selfs. weather you ride the brighton, sea beach, west end, culver and all of the eastern div lines, they have been there for generations and should be used to their fullest to serve the people. I personally rode them all and each and every route is great un to their own. There is no other system like it. Lets hope that they will not destroy it.
Mayor John Hylan had a proposal to build a 4-track line under Flatbush Avenue to Floyd Bennett Field in the early 1920s. I am sure he is smiling on your "rumour" :)
--Mark
Where would that line had gone going toward Downtown Brooklyn?
As it was a "new" proposal, it had no connections to existing routes.
Here's what I know about it:
A 4-track subway under Flatbush Avenue in Brooklyn to Nostrand Ave, to Emmons Avenue in Sheepshead Bay, turning west onto Emmons Ave. to Surf Avenue in Coney Island. A branch of this line would head out to Floyd Bennett Field under Flatbush Avenue.
You can read about Hylan's entire proposal on my History of the IND page.
--Mark
Looks a fun proposal - I might try making a BAHN layout of it if I ever have time...
I'm reading all this and taking it all in and I'm not smiling a bit.
See Mark, the Brighton line is just special like that! A double 4 track line with 6-8 different lines from all over the system, how sweet could that get, the first line EVER to have a double 4 track line. BTW, I'm just fantasizing what a double stacked Brighton would be like :-).
What the ?! Where the hell did you come up with this outrageous stuff, while the Brigton is a important line; the Brighton would become extremely overloaded. It sounds made up and its total bullshit if you ask me. So wait you're saying that the Brighton would be rebuilt into 6-8 tracks[presumably staceked on top of the current one] and many different lines running on it, and the E running to Kings Hwy, NO WAY! I don't believe this crap for one minute.
I don't either. NIMBY's along the Brighton would not go for that either. If an 8 track line is running here, how will all 8 tracks merge into the tunnel at Prospect Park, let alone make it into the cut at Newkirk. Whoever thought this up better lay off the "ripple". As Fred Sanford would say: "It ain't a party without any ripple".
Building one extra track wouldn't go well with residents living near the train tracks. Its all silly rumors, don't buy any of this crap.
.
I do agree with you, mouse. It seems we have more of 'em. :(
You're joshing all of us.
Oh thank god! I was scared for a minute. You know the old saying: if it's on the internet, it must be true.
The Sea Beach will be a shuttle to 36th Stret-CI." No offense my friend, but later for you ace.
"The West End will be a shuttle to 36th-CI
The Sea Beach will be a shuttle to 36-CI as well blah blah blah blah "
WHAT !!! NO MENTION OF REOPENING 76TH ST. !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Where did you get this information? From Bill Clinton's final party for interns in the U.S. Governmant?
When I read that outrageous rumor, I just sat there laughing at such foolishness. Even though our Brighton line would be more important & interesing than it already is with a 2nd level of 4 tracks, lets be real its too good to be true and would put a huge burden on the Brighton. I will NOT believe foolish stuff like this.
Neither do I, as I love the Brighton Line, but he carried it to the extreme and should back up his statementts with facts. Don't worry Fred it's all lies because where would the MTA get THIS MUCH money from for these projects? The Sea Beach and West End lines will be here to stay and thats running to Manhattan most of the time. There will be NO line running to Floyd Bennett Fiekd and the Brighton Line trackage will remain the same.
There is no concrete facts and it was probably posted here just to amuse himself :-\. Don't worry Fred and (West End) Jeff, they won't cut back the lines and remember, the MTA is in supposedly in poverty so they won't have the money to do such a odd and silly project like that. Don't worry Kool-D, they won't alter our Brighton line and the NIMBY's along the line won't put up with such a stupid plan anyway.
They CANNOT alter the BEST and MOST FAMOUS line in the NYC subway system anyway so I'm not worried.
Next stop on the Q Express, Kings Highway. Please stand clear of the closing doors.
There's no way I'll be worried! The Brighton line is a real trooper and it won't stand for that :-). Seriously, it would make no sense; like how would it go under Newkirk and through the portal at Parkside Av unless you want it to soar about 100 feet into the air over the streets.
We're on a R40 flying down the express track skipping Av H, J & M arriving at Kings Highway. This is a Brighton Beach bound Q express, next stop Sheepshead Bay stand clear of the closing doors....
I'd be a hell of a lot more optimistic if you guys, Kool-D and Flatbush 41, were running the TA instead of some of the guys there now. They do NOT like the Sea Beach and I have this gut feeling that they want to slice it up like salami. Hopefully sanity will prevail.
I would hate working for the Moronic Transportation Authority, I would have to fire everyone at 2 Broadway who tinkers with my Brighton Line the wrong way.
Where did you get this information? From Bill Clinton's final party for interns in the U.S. Government?
Is this guy serious?
See this eBay listing.
I don't collect MetroCards, but is this as rare as the seller claims?
--Mark
Looks fishy. But I'm not up on my MetroCard values either.
---Brian
Looks like one of those "school pass" metrocards, brah...
That OR someone plastered their Depends© onto it..
Wow! I sure he/she is in a desperate need of $$$$
$3,000???? WHAT????? What is he? NUTS! And who in the world would be too stupid to paid $3,000 for that priceless MetroCard.
"And who in the world would be too stupid to paid $3,000 for that priceless MetroCard?"
The same people who'd pay $0.99 for a computer link that is otherwise free.
I used to collect Metrocards and I've seen a lot of different "test" cards, but never before seen that one. I've seen several "test" Metrocards with the blue front and something like "for testing purposes only" or just a blank bank with an exp date and serial # sell in the $100-$250 range on E-Bay, but nowhere near what this guy's asking. It may be rare, but only an idiot would pay what he's asking.
Only the idiot thinks that Money grows on the tree or fall from the skies.
HELL NO! No Metrocard sells for $3000, not even the blue one could be sold for that, the most for a rare Metrocard is MAYBE a couple hundred dollars. They DO have Metrocard trade shows so he's not bogus about selling and trading them but 3G's, he must be high :-\.
As of 9:30am on Sunday morning with about 13 hours left to bid on it, there are no bids.
No Bid!.Well of course! $3,000 is waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much one metrocard. I collect metrocard. I wouldn't paid that dude $3,000 for priceless card.
As of 5:30 pm Sunday, still no bids.
Well, he can forget that $3,000 pocket change.
He still has about another 15-20 minutes at 11PM. He might get a sucker.
HEHE, only that sucker who is willing to give his new car or taken large sums out of his bank account.
You would if there were $4,000 in fares on the card.
Nahhhh, I have bills and rents to pay.
Hmmm, that's 2,667 rides to break even at current $1.50 fare :)
--Mark
AAwwww! Poor booboo! Well, maybe there is next time if he willing throw in little extra for auction fees. Hmmm, if he does, I wonder what will his asking price would be this time. $50,000!..$100,000..maybe?
But still, The card is PRICELESS!
I would have liked to see both sides of the card. Unless it was the card used by David Gunn, the card was more WORTHLESS.
Metrocard trading shows!?
I'd like to see who goes there. Ha! Well, then again, I do collect 'em myself. 8)
My scam alert is blinking yellow.
Funny we're only being shown ONE side of the card..
Unless the other side has MERTOCARD mispelled he's no swipe.
As of 1:20 PM on Sunday afternoon, Still no bids on the card.
MertoCard is what you use to pay for your funeral and burial.
Or, in a Romance Language-speaking country, to take a shit :-)
That's a lot of bus rides!
He's got a whole bunch of MetroCards, many of which stike me as overpriced, offered for sale... none of which have bids.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was wondering when someone here was gonna find this item. I saw it too and wondering if this guy has enormous balls !
Please notice that paper Metrocards sold from TVM's can different background colors with the MTA logo. The TVM prints all the necessary imformation. What is mssing is on the upper right hand side there should be yellow boxes with the numbers 1 thru 7.
On the upper left hand side, all the Metrocard run numbers and expiration date looks authentic. Perhaps this card was one out of thousands printed without the yellow numbered boxes ? Maybe someone on the inside sold it to the seller and is looking to strike it rich with an opening bid way up in the stratosphere !
Remember those wise words of Phineas T. Barnum. " There's a sucker born every minute"
No bids ? GOOD !! Maybe he'll get the message.
Bill "Newkirk"
As of 10:15 PM Sunday night with about 50 minutes left to bid, No one has made a bid yet.
Who's going to bid $3000 on a piece of plastic, it makes the guy who was selling links for 99 cents sound smart [which it is if he made a profit]. That's good for his dumbass, people should leave him hangin and are not gullible for falling into it.
As of 9:30am on Monday morning, No bids were received for his old metrocard. Hopefully he owes eBay a fee for having his card up for auction.
So he may get a negative profit, ha! If he auctioned it for a reasonable price, he had a shot and if it were a blue Metrocard with a design then he would of got some bids.
A negative profit is called a loss.
I know that. I like the way negative profit sounds ;-).
It sounds better I admit. But a negative profit is still a fancy way to say a loss.
What a loser! Its funny how he tried to auction a piece of plastic [the Metrocard] for $3000 and records a loss. I wonder what foolishness will be auctioned on E-bay that would be posted here at SubTalk next time.....
Someone will come up with something. I just wondering how much does a person have to pay for trying to auction something on eBay?
Me too, I'm wondering as well. There's always at least ONE person who auctions something that is out of the ordinary :-\.
eBay lists fees for selling on their help system. It costed him $3.30 for the auction, he probably paid a few cents more features like the gallery.
Note that it is a private auction that protects the suckers from being warned.
-Hank
Hundreds of years from now, historians will look back at the internet 'explosion' and the whole ebay sub-culture with 'fascination' for want of a better word.
I'm a frequent Ebay flyer - both a buyer and seller. I'm never amazed at the variety of items up for sale there nor am I ever suprised by the prices. After all, it is 'supply and demand'. If you have one person who has a metrocard that he feels is worth $3000.00, then it would stand to reason that there are others who would prize that card as highly. It's possible that 'that' person was not on ebay during the course of the sale or perhaps just a little short of holiday cash. There may even be more than one.
I'll bet there's even one guy seeking wooden skee-balls on ebay.
Since we seem to be occupied with budget cuts and regressions to deferred maintainance, I guess i'll throw this related question out:
What in the world motivated the MTA do paint the cars in such an unoriginal color? Also, I know that the date on this picture was sometime in the early 80's, so does anyone know exactly when this hideous scheme was implemented and when it was done away with or any other interesting tidbits?
Thanks for reading
Oh man, didn't you see the previous posts on the white paint? Oh well, I'll tell you what I know. This stupid scheme was first introduced in 1980-1981 mostly/only in the IRT in a effort to curb graffiti and it had a special agent in the paint which allowed for easier cleaning; which it got overwhelmed by the "artists" anyway later on. By 1987-1988, the older single unit cars which a good set of these had the white paint treatment [R12,14,15,17,21,22] went through a mass retirement when all of the R62A's arrived on TA property and the policy for ordering new cars was to be all stainless steel.
As for the R26,28,29,33,36 & 33/36WF when they went through the GOH starting in 1982[most started after 1985 though] the white paint was history and the cars originally was a dark green [Greenbird scheme] but it was dropped for the current Redbird scheme, which was more attractive and it stuck around. Hope this helps.
The "Redbird" scheme was introduced in the spring of 1984 on the Flushing Line, which is about two years after the GOH program started. The first cars to go through GOH were the R-36s, most of which operated on the Flushing Line; they came back from GOH painted white. The "Greenbird" scheme started slightly later and was confined to 110 "EOH" (partially overhauled) R-10s, about 12 R-33s, 1 R-17, and 1 R-21.
Little known fact: the original specs for the R-29 overhaul (the first major GOH -- the R-36 and R-33S programs featured lots of rebuilding in place and little replacement) called for white paint! (The specs were released in 1984; cars started coming back in 1985.)
David
What were they thinking? They seriously considered the R29's staying in white that's interesting. I know the R33/36 WF cars went through the GOH first but it seems like the WF cars weren't rebuilt as strong as the mainline IRT cars that went through.
The Redbird paint has has been only been around since 1989, when the graffti crisis was over.
Not correct. As I said, the first trains with the "Redbird" scheme were R-33S/R-36 trains on the Flushing Line, in the spring of 1984. R-29s started coming back from GOH in "Redbird" colors in 1985, the same year that R-30s started coming back from GOH in that scheme. The advent of the "Redbird" scheme was a big part of the effort to eradicate graffiti, which, as "R36 9685 on the 7" indicated, was declared a success in 1989.
David
Nope, I rode them first in 1985 (well on the R30's). It was know as "David Gunn" red back then.
Wrong. It came out in 1984 on the 7, then expanded by 1985 and was also on R30's and on some non rebuilt R27/30's. The last cars to get the Redbird scheme was the R33's, which started in 1987 in which some of them had the Greenbird scheme then it was dropped for the Redbird scheme and all the cars were rid of graffiti. In May 1989, EVERY car was graffiti free and the MTA won the war, took over 15 years but they did it.
Some of the R27-30's on the B division also had that hideous scheme - ugly even when just painted! What ever possesed them to paint some of the trains white is beyond me.
I don't recall any R27-30's having this paint scheme. I know around 110 R27-30's got the Redbird paint scheme, but it believe the rest went to their end wearing MTA blue and silver covered in graffiti.
Yes, all had the MTA silver with blue (and graffiti), some in the early 70's had a lighter red look, some of the survivors in their final days had the current Redbird look, but a few of the R27/R30's had that scheme in the graffiti era, but at most the trains looked like that for a week (if lucky) before getting their unofficial scheme. You could tell which R27-30 had white paint under the graffiti by looking at the white (with dirt) roofs.
It was more than that. You have the 160+ rebuilt R30's with the Redbird scheme and then you got about the 100 or so R27/R30's that were repainted to show a non-graffiti look but most were gone to scrap in the graffiti covered scheme [over the blue/silver scheme].
The white scheme was mostly used on the IRT, where supposedly, graffiti was at the strong point. However, two R27/30's were painted in the white scheme for the movie "Beat Street". These were the only B Division equipment to have the white scheme. I can't recall the car numbers, so when my sister returns the movie to me, I'll post the car numbers. For those who saw the movie, the white set of R27/30 cars was used close to the end of the movie when the characters "Ramone, Kenny, and Spit" were putting their artistic touches on the train. Sadly, Ramone and Spit, after a chase down the track, both died on the third rail at the Hoyt-Schemerhorn station.
Yeah, I saw that movie and I saw a few R27/R30's [I saw 8219] painted in white for the sole purpose of the movie.
Yeah, and the train was signed as an A train, complete with the "207th St, Wash Hts" destination sign on the front. Also, the scene where they were in the abandoned station also looked like Hoyt-Schermerhorn with a false wall (the one they were spraying on) on one of the outer platforms (look for the distinctive green tile on the real wall).
That was the Court Street bound side. If you recall earlier, Kenny and Tracey were running from a northbound A train switching to the express tracks.
and the station they were in before that was DEMOTT AVE!!!
The purpose of this scheme was straightforward. Crazy as it sounds, it was introduced when the TA decided to get serious about graffiti. The white paint was an open challenge to graffit writers, both to test the effective of enforcement measures and to see how well the additives would work in cleaning the cars.
The experiment mostly worked, the picture notwithstanding. The white scheme was never intended to remain permanent.
Paul, that's very interesting. Thanks for the info. I never realized that!
So what's the 2004 color scheme going to be (to show us off to the Republican convention?) When the 142's and 143's give out and they pull all the carbon steel cars back on the line as replacements, what should we paint them? My vote -- camoflage black and brown (yeah, I'm in a mood. Finding the lost $1.6 billion would improve it.)
Yeah, I know it's a criminal offense, but hey, you gotta admit, that's some sweet artwork and not just some local gang logo. Something like that should be saved and put in a transit museum.
Yeah, it's purdy. Like a sunset over the desert.
---Brian
Agreed. It is pretty, but NOT desireble
Look at the condition of the car UNDER the paint- I find that MUCH less desirable. Unacceptable that the cars and stations got that bad.
That's something the MTA would rather forget about 8-). It's illegal but I agree with you that's some mean art there, they could of got a legal permit and do that as a mural somewhere besides the subway but hey it really 'brightened' a dismal fleet and provided moving 'art'.
I know it's a period of time most New Yorkers would want to forget, but I'm suprised that the museum doesn't include one car with graffiti all over it. The R27-30 and R16 probably wore that "scheme" more than any other of their "real" schemes. As much as most of us and NYers would want to forget, it was a big part of the history of the NYC subway system, and it is hard to forget that all the trains did look like that for about 20 years. It wasn't just a small part of the history.
It should actually be looked on as a major hurdle that was crossed, that the system recovered from that mess. Who would have thought in the early 80's that the subway would look as good as it does now, when around that point it was still VERY much out of control. It was a REAL part of the system for almost 20 years, how can they just pretend it never happened? And thank goodness they did win the war aginst it, and our system is the great system it has become again - no one every would have thought it was possible during that extreme lowpoint in the subways history.
History is made up of good and bad things, and some embarrasing things, but you can't just "forget" that these things happeded. It's a painful part of history, but it fif happen. It is what our system looked like. Yes graffiti was embarrasing for NY, but it's just as much a part of the NYC subway system as the BMT Standards themselves. Just like they rolled through the same stations we wait at today, so did those filthy wrecks covered with graffiti -- for two decades!
It should be presented in such a way that shows what the system looked like at that time, through photos, or a train, and show what steps were taken to erradicte it from the system, which is an accomplishment that they should be proud of. In the early 80's no one thought it was possible to bring the system back.
As much as most of us and NYers would want to forget, it was a big part of the history of the NYC subway system, and it is hard to forget that all the trains did look like that for about 20 years. It wasn't just a small part of the history.
It should actually be looked on as a major hurdle that was crossed, that the system recovered from that mess. Who would have thought in the early 80's that the subway would look as good as it does now, when around that point it was still VERY much out of control. It was a REAL part of the system for almost 20 years, how can they just pretend it never happened?
Graffiti was commonplace for about 15 years. Given that the system's been around for almost a century, that's not much.
Still a large timeframe. It was more than 15 years. There are photos on this site from about 1974, and even earlier that show trains with graffiti. In 1984 when I first started to ride the subway, it was still in full force. Only the R44-46's were clean at that point. Then the R62's started to arrive, and of course were kept clean. Shortly after (around 1985) is when they had gotten much of the other stainless cars cleaned up before their GO's (R32-R42 go their blue doors back, shined up) and kept them clean. By 1988 or 1989 you really started to notice the change as the current 60 foot cars came back from GO and the remaining R30's were red. It ended in 1992 (but the elevated stations still had a few years to go to get clean).
So if you count just the trains you can say approx 1974 to 1992 (17-18 years - I said "about" 20 years)
If you count the stations it's over 20 years.
In the scheme of the system it may be a blink, but it's a blink that's quite hard to forget.
In 1984 when I first started to ride the subway, it was still in full force.
Just to add to that, I meant when I first started to ride the subway "alone" and regularly for school and stuff. I did ride many times in the mid to late 70's also, except of course with an adult.
When I got my first R1 pass (remember THOSE?) the grafitti monster was just a pup. Later the TA painted the cars on the IRT WHITE and that was that. BTW R1 passes (school subway passes, for all you youngsters out there) were good on weekends, the idea being that NYC school kids could use them to go enrich their educations at museums, etc. The only museum I went to using it was the TRANSIT museum, and all the rest was railfanning. The train bug bite early, don't it? (hee hee hee).
Yup, I had those R-1 passes. Half the time the station clerk didn't even look up when you showed it to them as you went in through the exit gates. I also used that pass all over the city. You were supposed to write your home station and school station in on the bottom, which I rarely did, and even when I did, they rarely checked. I still have almost the whole set for my four high school years. (And I too used it to go to the transit museum......)
Went home after a HOUSE PARTY around 0200 in high school using my R1 pass and the clerk didn't even look up from her book. Just buzzed me in after I knocked on the glass. Ah, youth.
LOL, at my station they didn't even have to buzz you in, you just walked into the old wood exit doors. Rarely did the clerk even glance at me or any of the other kids that didn't even flash their passes.
Every once and a while you would get a cop or bus driver that made you fill out the card(had a C-1 card).
Most stations did not even look. Especially at stations with the swing gates on the West End
My school station had a busser, but my home station just had the swing gates. I never got stopped at my home station. At my school station they occasionally made you fill in the card. The few cards I still have that are filled in are from all those days where they actually checked at my school station.
My school station had a busser,
Duh, I meant buZZer, not a "kisser" at my home station.
I remember once using an alternative station because I had to go stay someplace else that night and I wasn't going to take three trains just because my regular station was Chambers Street/West Broadway. When the clerk at Chambers Street/Church Street ask me to fill it out, I just said fuck you and entered without filling it out at the Park Place booth.
And the Chambers Street booth was the one which had the larger share of students.
When I found out that they would give Metrocards to students starting in 1997, I was ecstatic.
My kids have student Metrocards, and they're upset because you can't do all those wonderful things with them, as when I was their age. The turnstile just won't let them in, and no more weekend trips. :-(
They DO have student Metrocards that work on weekends but they are special cards that are good for two trips.
Hey, we used to print our own R1 passes in my high school!!!
Heh, many a day I'd use my S-1 (surface) pass, cover it with my hand and yell "pass" as I would go through the exit gate. Construction paper in the right color would often work too :)
--Mark
>>>Construction paper in the right color would often work too <<<
haha...I thought I was the only one who did that.
Peace,
ANDEE
hehe, and just think of how easy they would be to copy now with computers, if they still used those R-1 passes instead of MetroCards. They basically did just look like small pieces of construction paper.
In 1997, they did copy those passes with computers. The holograms would just be peeled from old passes and pasted onto new, fake ones.
Wow, I remember those R1 passes. I had one until I graduated high school in 1995.
Whta came first? System degradation, or graffitti? Graffitti appeared when the system started downsliding, and went away when the system was upgraded. Don't forget, the reason those guys were able to do all that painting was that no one was there to stop them, or to wash it off or repaint.
Grafitti came first, around 1970. I remember seeing "TAKI 183" around that time. Then came the years of "deferred maintenance". I remember a Daily News article that said all the extra coats of paint applied from grafitti actually rustproofed the cars! No, really!....
Well, at least SOMEBODY was painting those freakin' cars, eh? :) All jokes aside-you're from good ol' Bkyln, right? I'm assuming that from your handle- tell me those R-16's on the J looked great to begin with, no? :)
I'm from Queens, but after the R-16's got those larger door motors, grafitti followed soon after, and it quickly swallowed up the whole Eastern Division. I even recall one car which said in DAY-GLO PAINT, no less, "PLEASE DO NOT WRITE ON THE TRAINS". I think I need more medication...(LOL)
*L*
Or my favorite, "Help stamp out graffitti" painted on an A-train.
I think that was on a freshly cleaned train that was on its way to a photo-opt with Mayor. I think it was Lindsey.
What would really be funny is if someone painted "OK" right under one of those messages.
Oops..Bklyn, I meant.
"all the extra coats of paint applied from grafitti actually rustproofed the cars!"
I believe it!
Maybe the grafitti artists used Rust-Oleum!
Maybe it was easier to get (steal) that than the regular paint.
Lol, I'm sure they did. Actually, graffiti may have kept some of the elevated stations from rusting apart also. In this photo, I guess just before the nightmare started, look at the side of the stairway behind the train at the Flushing Ave Station in this photo just waiting for some Rust-Oleum to be sprayed on there! .....kept the infastructure together until the MTA regained it's composure maybe???
I thought the TA held stuff together with duct tape in those days. :-)
NO MORE DUCT TAPE!!!!!!!!! Problems with loose access doors that had to be secured with TWO pieces of duct tape where tracked to vendors errors and NOT to inspection crews. So I'm walking inspection track 69 at 239th and I see one of my buddies and yell, "NO MORE DUCT TAPE."
The ACMO is between us....he looks at me, smiles and laughs. The duct tape was a good idea BUT its removal caused more problems than its intended function. One could spend an entire hour just removing, inspecting the guts of 'Propulsion Control Electronics' and replacing the tape on two R142s. CI Peter
Actually, I just pulled my "Subway Art" book out, and on page 35 (for those who have it) has a photo of a graffiti vandal, resting his cans of paint on the floor of an open train, in the middle of a yard, and guess what brand the more than 10-15 cans of paint are......Rust-Oleum.
See all the layers of Rust-Oleum graffiti under the current redbird paint is keeping them together.......
(/joke)
Let's not give the vandals any credit......but it did strike me as funny....probably millions of cans of Rust-Oleum in those dark years.
LOL! I had no idea they REALLY used Rust-Oleum! Maybe it should be a product endorsement (LOL).
Of course they really used Rustoleum. Rusto is quality paint! And it comes in a much wider variety of colors than your standard Krylon.
Thats DONDI, whata character, not to mention artist, one of the few who made it in the fine art world after the subway madness, but died of cancer ( i believe) Subway art is a helluva book, very hard to get, some stores Ie: B&N dont stock it anymore because (official responce from a B&N clerk) "..gets stolen too much" Im very glad that this thread is calmer than what im used to when it comes to graffiti on subtalk, ahh i remember posting about this in "the good ole days" and the humongous arguments had...good job keeping calm.
In many cases, they did due to the wide variety of colors it was available in. Krylon was also a favorite.
wayne
>>> I'm suprised that the museum doesn't include one car with graffiti all over it <<<
That would be a mistake. A photo exhibit of graffitied cars would be proper, but not intentionally painting a museum car with graffiti. First of all, it would be inaccurate in the sense that it would be a reproduction rather than authentic graffiti from that period. It would be a contemporary artist's impression of what the cars looked like. That would be no more authentic than a visit to a ‘50s diner, or a movie studio's "western street." That is not what a museum does.
None of the cars really look like most of the riders remember them in service. The pictures I have seen of the museum cars do not show the layers of grime I remember from my youth which made it impossible to tell their real color, and I doubt that the wicker seats have broken pieces that could stab the unwary.
Tom
None of the cars really look like most of the riders remember them in service.
Yes indeed, take this photo....I'm sure NO ONE remembers the R16's like this!
(BTW, I love your "I doubt that the wicker seats have broken pieces that could stab the unwary" comment.)
Other than the fact that the car is in the Museum, and has enlarged door motors, that could be circa 1968 or so. I remember that as a VERY young little railfan. Good photo! :-)
Is that the original color of the doors? I only remember them with the gray or orange doors and strewn with graffiti. I was born in the early 70's so my earliest memories on the subway are from the mid 70's and they were trashed then already! I hated the R16's, right until 1986. Now I only wish one of those rolling disasters would pull into the station!
The R-10s and R-16s both got delivered with this battleship gray interior. This interior lasted until about 1970, when the seasick-green over gray interior began to appear, followed by the tan/orange one.
Yeah, that's the other color scheme I was trying to recall:
Mint and cigarette ash gray. *L*
Well, I don't remember them looking like that, because the colors are all wrong. What's up with the battleship blue-gray? I remember tan walls with orange doors. Plus, there's no junkie nodded out in the corner. Where are all the cigarette butts? Nope, not one of MY R-16's.
Nope, not one of MY R-16's.
LOL!!! Yeah, your description sounds right.....
Hey on the train in that photo, you could even fix your hair in the reflection on the floor....try THAT on the R16's we remember!
Well, hate to say it, but that's how the R-10's up to the R-17's interiors were painted. The R-17 to R-22 seemed to have a lighter shade of the dark greyishblue on the doors (except for cars 7515-7524 which had a metallic green interior from the factory!!)
Well, I NEVER rode (even when they worked the #15) an R16 with a powder-blue interior like that, they were grey and the doors were a similar (but darker) shade of blue. And they had red seats way back then (well, some of them did), but this is a case of "close but no cigar". I remember them most with the pistachio green interior, and the white ceiling paint peeling off like snow.
wayne
BTW, in the photo in the above post there is an ad (first full ad from right over the open doors) that talks about half price fare on Sundays and Saturday nights.
What's that about? Did they really do that at one time?
Yes they did, it was all weekend not just nights, sometime in the late 70s/early 80s, IIRC. You would buy your token at regular price and get a ticket for the return trip. It was mentioned in a recent thread.
Peace,
ANDEE
Interesting. I don't remember that at all.
I do remember riding the subway on New Years Eve/Day for free (forgot what times that was in effect). That must've been the late 80's or early 90's. They did that for two or three years.
I guess that was to encourage people to use mass transit so they wouldn't drive drunk.
I, unfortunately, was not living in the city at the time, but I do recall the ads.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well the system is back and prospering again today and don't forget, everything in sight was covered with graffiti, especially the outdoor stations where they did their "art" all over the aluminum walls and the R10, R16 & R40S in the B division were hit the hardest allright while the whole IRT fleet was just pummeled with whole car murals; now I thought the IRT would not get clean trains before the IND/BMT. If it weren't for David Gunn & dedicated MTA employees, who knows how the system would be today. They had a exhibit on hip-hop a while back at the Brooklyn museum & I think they had a graffitied subway car there. I agree with you, the TM should have a slide show showing the system through the deferred maintenance days and how we rebounded but its embarrassing & its something they would rather forget about.
"I agree with you that's some mean art there"
But in alot of cases the "art" was covered over by later additions. I remember an IRT car that had a birthday tribute to Keith. (Yesterday was my birthday" Nicely done as I remember. By the time the car was photographed for posterity, you could barely see it with all the 2 cent "throw-ups" people added to it.
>>>I remember an IRT car that had a birthday tribute to Keith. <<<
Keith Richards? Keith ("98.6")? Toby Keith? Keith Hernandez?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'm not sure. At best it was an "artist" from the early 80's.
The artist's name is Keith Haring. He was a pop artist in the 80's who used graffiti styles and techniques in his artwork. He used to go into subways and paint over ads while crowds and police watched and waited for him to finish before arresting him. He died of AIDS a few years back.
Keith Haring wasn't an "artist" who painted the trains. His thing was to use chalk and write on the black advertising boards in the stations. His signature piece was the glowing baby. At least that is what he used to first become noticed.
I once had the "pleasure" of meeting him once. I was ready to leave work at 34/8 back in 1982 when he came out of nowhere with a film crew to record him "working" on the lower level of the station. A few years later there was a book published with him in action and the best of his "work". In the front few pages was a picture of him being led away by TA police at 34/8. I was expecting to see my pic in the book with the caption "Art Critic" under it.
The people who did throw ups and tags had no respect for graf artists work and were jealous of their "art" skills.
They were just a bunch of "wanna-be's" (or as an "artist" would describe them "toys") who wanted to have some share of the "fame" involved.
Then it's too bad the "artist" painted it on somebody else's property.
I don't miss it one bit.
I don't miss this, and I hope it NEVER comes back.
Luckily it could never really come back the way it did because most of the trains (soon to be all) are stainless steal. During the graffiti nightmare, most were not. Even though the R32-46's endured graffiti also, they never got as bad as the R10, R27-30, current Redbird classes, etc. Although I would never say never, it's a pretty safe bet that it can not and will not come back the way it did.
I think it will come attempt a comeback and the papers will say it's worse than before. I can see a front page on the Post with a colorful subway car and a headline in big letters. But it'd likely be an exception to what the subways are really like.
Most graffiti artists are stupid. You're not going to get a large enough number of them figuring out that the MTA is broke and that it's possible to get away with more graffiti.
I think some former "artists" will try to bring it back (Graffiti Revival?) But will be quickly busted after their first couple of tries. MTA may or may not be broke. But with what money it does have, it'll try to nip it in the bud before it gets out of control.
Part of the enjoyment of the graffiti vandals back then was their "destruction" would be driven all over the city, and last for quite a long time, even years in some cases, there for everyone to see. Now not only is it harder to gain access to the areas where they did that destruction, they also know that it will be removed very quickly, thus decreasing the "fun" of doing it. Why would they mark up a train knowing that the train will not leave the yard with the paint. Keeping on top of removal of graffiti is the basic concept that wiped it out from being in the system.
Chances are when the first "artists" are arrested for new graffiti, it will probably be people from Europe or places that don't know things have changed here.
The fact that you don't see trains with graffiti murals all over them today doesn't mean vandals are stupid. Yopu don't see it because first of all Vandal Squad regularly raids train yards looking for writers to bust. Second of all, even if they did whole murals on trains, the MTA no longer lets trains with graf on them ride. Vandals do still go into yards and do paint on the trains, but all they get out of it is the photo. Whether the MTA has money or not, they always hold back any train with paint on the outside until it has been cleaned off. It's part of the image that Guilliani wanted. If they let even one train get out with paint on it, it's open season.
What don't you miss, the graffitti or the unacceptable state of the system back then? :) Look under the graffitti..those cars haven't been painted in years. When I rode the trains back then, the last thing on my mind was the graffitti- I was more concerned with cars with no lights, windows, or heat. For that matter, stations with no lights. Stations full of psychos and junkies, because there weren't any transit police around. People who talk about "defacement/destruction of property", are completely avoiding the fact that the system was already defaced and destroyed, from neglect.
Remember what the Botanic Garden station on the Frank Shuttle looked like in the '80's? Pitch dark, even in the daytime, with rats of both the two-and-four legged variety. And the four-legged kind were bigger. :-)
Yes, I do. How about Grand Concourse/149th on the 2/5? Yikes. :)
I know! That's where I get on/off at work now, and that station looks 100% better now than, say, 1982. Freeman St. was another grafitti splattered nightmare, but somebody always tied the service gate open so every MAN rode FREE...
Oh Christ- Freeman St., you're talking about MY neck of the woods, I'm from Burke Ave and White Plains. I used to go meet a drummer I played with back then (early 80's), I'm a jazz bassist- anyway, we used to have to "excuse me, man" past all the lines of junkies/dealers at Freeman St. station.
P.S. There's still a methadone clinic there next to the S/B staircase. You can still see methadonians there, our units take them to Bronx Leb about once a week. Ditto 138/Concourse on the #4/5, there's a methadonian hall right above the station. The bad old days aren't completely gone...
Methadonians....that's hilarious.
They're a branch off the evolutionary tree. (LOL)
*L*
Ah, I don't want to bang on the junkies and crackheads to bad, I feel sad for 'em. Plus, remember, before crack, there were those guys who were always sniffing spray paint out of the little brown bags for beer cans-the 2 in the Bronx was FULL of those guys-THOSE cats were ZOMBIES, man. *L*
Methadonians ... they're from northern Greece, right?
Oh wait, those are Macedonians.
No, that's not northern Greece, that's a Former Yugoslav Republic.
And we live in the Former British United States of America.
I live in the independent city-state of New York, a republic all its own, in which you will find the province of Methadonia.:-/
>>> Methadonians ... they're from northern Greece, right <<<
No, they are actors following the teachings of Kontantin Stanislavski.
Oops, I was wrong too, those are Methodonians. :-)
Tom
The lower leval at Grand Concourse was where one was likely to meet an "artist" talking to other "artists".
I don't think it could come back but as I said before anything is possible. However, since the majority of the fleet is now stainless steel lets say it made a comeback, it won't be as rampant as the 70's & 80's.
Watch out, cat....I agree it's nice, in fact, it looks better than that worn out blue and silver underneath it, but the graffitti issue is one you really don't want to get started. It always starts out nice and calm, but next thing you know, it'll turn into a screaming match about national security.
If you want to see some fairly good building graffitti, check some out next to the 7 tracks right after it comes out of the tunnel. To see it, look out the left side of the 7 as it goes northbound out of the Steinway tunnel (or out the right side of the southbound before it enters the tunnel). Among other things, there is a nice depiction of Gandalf from Lord of the Rings (from the Bakshi-version poster, I believe).
It's still a disgrace.
The trains the graffitti were on were a disgrace.
That's true also. No arguing that graffiti is a disgrace, but the trains were a disgrace even if they didn't have graffiti, like you mentioned! Graffiti was able to gain so much ground in the subway because basically it seemed that the city didn't care. The trains and stations were a mess even before graffiti. Graffiti just made a bad situation worse.
Thanks for seeing my point. I think that graffitti is for neighborhood murals and handball/basketball courts, not trains. Hell, why waste your talents on buckets of rusty bolts that those trains were in those days? Or on dirty broken tiles on a dark wall under Broadway? :)
Trains are perfect for graffiti! They're gigantic rolling canvases that travel the city. What better way to expose people to your artwork? And why let something bland and plain stay that way? Graffiti finds the most aesthetically bare spaces and fills them, makes them interesting. Whether you agree with it or not, you have to admit that when it rode the trains back in the day you were frequently glad to see it and investigate it.
Oh, umlike most on this board, it didn't bother me one bit, my friend. At that time, the bad conditions of the subways in general was more of a concern to me. Also, although many may not dig this- I'm a jazz musician, graffitti is the kind of shake-'em-up energy I like.
Heh, funny you should say that. A guy I know once said "graffiti is the jazz of calligraphy."
Ha!!! That IS funny....well, he's right, in the sense that calligraphy is like classical music, beautiful, but a slave to the rules..good calligraphy, like good classical, is perfection of the form. Graffitti, however, like jazz, is interpretation of the moment, making up new rules, making up new form based on the old.
You know, it's amost like chaos theory. You have styles that have eveolved in graffiti. Brooklyn has a style, the Bronx has a style, even LA has its own letter style. Philadelphia is crazy names and continuous tags. And it all evolved in the specific ways that it did because the medium requires speed. You have to bust a throwie on the wall before the police nab you. That changes the way the letters are going to look, and gives graffiti its wildness. If it were legal, it would look completely different than it does. Maybe it would be too bare, artificial.
This means that teh individual's artistic sensibilities are not the only things affecting the tag's improvisation on the form of calligraphy. There's the environment, the political situation, the specific surface to be used. All the tiny factors come together to result in this unique thing we call graffiti. This thing that can be simultaneously nostalgic and intimidating.
I think the same can be said about any art form. Poetry, theatre, music, Jazz in particular.
You said "the medium requires speed". Another jazz correlation: when you are improvising, you are composing spontaneously in real time, you don't have time to stop and think and construct. It has to be done on the fly, usually at fast tempos, much like an express train, barreling down the tracks.......
If you don't mind me asking on off-topic question: since you obviously understand the essence of jazz, I assume you listen to it. Charles Mingus is one of the best examples of what we're discussing. Do you listen to his music? You can reply to me by email, if you'd prefer, so we don't clog up the works here with off-topic stuff- I know the webmaster here doesn't really like when we do that.
No arguing that graffiti is a disgrace, but the trains were a disgrace even if they didn't have graffiti, like you mentioned! Graffiti was able to gain so much ground in the subway because basically it seemed that the city didn't care. The trains and stations were a mess even before graffiti. Graffiti just made a bad situation worse.
Could be ... on the other hand, graffiti had become such a plague that I strongly suspect the "artists" would have tagged even the newest, cleanest trains. In fact, new, clean trains might well have been especially tempting targets.
I think TA was hoping grafitti was just a passing fad that would be over and done with in a few months. When they started to do something, it was a matter of "too little, too late". It took a while before TA was serious about doing something about it.
I still think that the two things went hand in hand. I'd almost (almost, now) go so far as to say that the graffitti cats figured, "Hey, they don't care about it, let's do whatever we want." Don't forget, there were two different aspects of graffitti: First were the actual graffitti artists, guys who did those big car-covering paintings. Then seemingly, they stopped, because the second aspect of graffitti happened- anyone with a marker writing their "tags". And you're right, by the time the TA reacted to graffitti, it was too little, too late, the "taggers" didn't care WHAT they were writing on. The artists just opened the door for the taggers. I think the TA itself, by its lovely, wonderful "deferred maintanence" plan, opened the door for the artists to begin with.
I think the taggers were always there. With the "artists" working on the subway cars, the taggers were more noticed.
You know, I think you're right..didn't that Taki183 guy start it out on the 1 and the QJ?
IIRC, he was putting his tag up as a matter of passing time. The media picked up on it and grafitti snowballed from there.
Actually, the taggers came first. Legend has it that graffiti started when Taki 183 started writing his name all over the bus route that a girl he liked used to take so he could get noticed. Soon everybody was putting up their name and the street they lived on. As space disappeared, graffiti had to evolve. The only way to not get your stuff covered up was to do it bigger and better than what was already there. People started doing two color tags, puttign shines around their tags, and it got more and more complicated until writers realized that they could spend all day practicing on trains in yards because nobody was trying to stop them. Without the tagging, the "art" of it could never have existed.
And by the way- I think your new and better handle should be 76th St. Douce Man. :)
They did tag the R44-46's which were the newest trains at the time. They however had the formica-like interiors and the stainless steal exteriors and doors which were easier to clean. The other class cars all had painted interiors and doors. The other cars with stainless steal exteriors (R32-42), although were graffitied on the exteriors, never got it as bad on the exterior as the trains with the painted carbon exteriors. Of course the interiors of the R32-42 were just as badly tagged as all the other trains in the system because they were painted on the inside (and of course the exterior doors were covered because they were painted). I did remember seeing a bit of graffiti on the R62's when they first arrived, but the kids quickly learned that it wouldn't last long on those.
That, and the razor-sharp concertina wire, police dogs at subway yards, and increased transit police presence. Maybe the graffitti "plague" or whatever you want to call it died out because the TA started taking care of the subway again. As far as stainless steel or carbon goes, those guys didn't care if it lasted or not. I think they just got a cheap thrill by getting away with scribbling something on a train. When it got to the point where they wouldn't get away with it, they stopped.
>>> those guys didn't care if it lasted or not <<<
That is foolish. The purpose of graffiti is to memorialize the writer. The longer it lasts, the better. That is why graffiti eradication programs call for removing graffiti as soon as possible, preferably within 24 hours.
Tom
Exactly. that's what I was trying to say. If the graffiti is removed almost as fast it is applied, they get tired of it. It's true for trains, stations, and buildings in general. that is why it is more rappant in bad neighborhoods. It lasts longer, and many times it is not removed because owners of buildings don't care. In good neighborhoods, it usually gets removed right away because someone cares.
Of course it was foolish. Childish, however you want to put it. When I was a messenger in the early 80's, I used to work with guys who'd tag trains all day long. They weren't graffitti artists, they were taggers, guys who'd put their tag on anything. They didn't care-it's not like they'd go back and check if one of their tens of thousands of tags were still there. Sheesh. It was a fad, and fads fade. Especially when those guys'd get caught, and get a desk appearance ticket for disorderly conduct, then show up to court and get sentenced to scrubbing off trains on a Sunday. Now, I don't know about the artists, never met any of 'em, but taggers, I knew plenty.
Just alot of "artists" and "wannabe artists".
When I was a messenger in the early 80's, I used to work with guys who'd tag trains all day long. They weren't graffitti artists, they were taggers, guys who'd put their tag on anything. They didn't care-it's not like they'd go back and check if one of their tens of thousands of tags were still there. Sheesh. It was a fad, and fads fade. Especially when those guys'd get caught, and get a desk appearance ticket for disorderly conduct, then show up to court and get sentenced to scrubbing off trains on a Sunday.
You've just mentioned a big reason why the graffiti epidemic was so hard to eradicate. It was a relatively risk-free activity because the penalties for getting caught were basically nonexistent. If, say, there was a mandatory, no-parole year in prison for taggers, many of them would decide that the risk was just too high - not all of them, of course, as some people will accept any risk, but surely the problem wouldn't have been so severe.
Some guys used to only do tags with a Sharpie or used spray paint & just spray their names on as many subway cars as posible in a short time period.
This is about the extent I remember the R44-46's being tagged - probably a little worse than this photo, but not nearly every square inch inside and out that was on the R17-33, R10-30, etc, or even the R32-40 had it worse. Near the end, when they were grasping at straws, the vandals did just the blue strip on these, because they knew it wouldn't last on the stainless steal.
Damn, the R46's really did look nicer with the blue stripe.
I personally think the TA silver with blue stripe is the best color scheme they ever applied.
Seeing that this scheme rarely ran like this because the unofficial scheme covered it usually within days, here's a tribute:
Of course the R46 is thrown in there just because I like the look. The statement on the top was meant for the other class cars. The R44-46's ran with the blue stripe untagged for beforew their GO, even if tagged once in a while.
Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful and beautiful. Those 16's and 27's never looked better, to me.
Amen, the second photo of the QJ at what looks like Flushing Ave almost brings tears to the eyes!
p.s. thanks, Chris. Good one.
WHOA! A clean R16! That pic is definitely priceless ;-). Nice tribute Chris, seeing this is really shocking, you actually see the correct paint scheme trains should be having [until they were hit with the 'murals'].
I look at the clean trains and I think of a lamb being led to a slaughter.
I look at the clean trains and I think of a lamb being led to a slaughter.
Yes it does, those poor trains look so happy in their newly painted scheme. They had no idea what was about to happen to them!
Chris, Douce Man, tell the truth. You guys are writers aren't you.
Speaking for myself, I'm an employee.
The worst thing I ever did to a train was turn the rollsigns as a teenager on the R27-30's or R16's. Sorry, that's it.
Here are some nice graffiti pictures from the website of the artist "SEEN"
SEEN
My goodness. You know, if these guys would've put their talents elswhere from vandalizing trains, they really could have gone far. I can't believe this is done with spray paint! I still hate graffiti, and it has no place on trains, but I have to admit some of these guys really had talent! Now the guy has his own website with his "work".
Here's a photo from that website linked in the above post.
I can't even tell what class car that is!
Check out that website!
Here's the story about this particular car as quoted from the artist "SEEN":
<One day while I was painting a hand ball court in the Bronx, two detectives from the Vandal Squad approached me. I was sure that they were going to give me a hard time about painting the wall but instead, they praised my work! They then continued on to ask me the most peculiar thing; would I like to paint a "Whole Car" dedication piece for Hicki & Ski as a retirement gift. I stood there in disbelief, especially when they said that they would supply the paint and look out.
The first thing that came to my mind was that they were setting me up! But, I figured I'd play along for now and said that I would do it. We met at 3:00 AM on a week day at the Buhre Avenue Lay Up on the #6 line. The DT's were there waiting and had brought the paint as they said they would.
The first half hour, I was still suspicious and painted with sweat running down my face as they watched me from the platform of the train station. After awhile I relaxed and got into the flow of painting. About 1 1/2 hours into the piece, a motorman showed up to warm up the train. I wasn't sure if it was going into service so I kept painting. It did pull out, and ran on the 5 & 2 line unfinished.
Two months had gone by, when we decide to try again. This time we met on the Zerega Avenue Lay-up on a Saturday night. This way I was sure that the train would not pull out until Monday morning. Feeling comfortable that they were not setting me up, I went right to work. I even felt comfortable enough to give them my camera and asked them to take action shots. I think they were even having fun. They would let me know when a train was coming, detour people coming up the stairs to the other side -it's amazing what the law can do when they're on your side.
I was well into the piece when suddenly one of the detectives called me up to the platform. By the look into their face, I knew something was wrong. I jumped off the no clearance and scrambled onto the platform. I could hear footsteps coming up the stairs. Playing it cool, I leaned up against the wall as if I were waiting for a train. The two DT's confronted to other men who had come up the stairs. It turned out they were DT's too! At this point, all sorts of things were running through my head. I thought things were about to go down. The other DT's had seen someone on the tracks from the next station and had come to investigate. My lookouts covered up quickly and explained that they had been on the tracks.
The DT's who were looking out apologized for the interruption and explained that they the other two officers were supposed to be off Duty. So I went back to work, and painted till the sun came up. I finished up and took pictures of the finished product. After that, I never saw those DTs again. I found out that 3 enlargements were made, one went to Hicki and one went to SKI, the 3rd was hanging in the Vandal Squad Station.
I will tell you this, I was honored when those DT's asked me to paint that car. I know that those two DT's risked their jobs. I don't know the reason why they took that chance but I will tell you mine; I believe deep down that Hicki & Ski really loved Graffiti. They could of slowed me down some, but they didn't.
Thanks for letting me have some of the best times of my life without a hassle.
SEEN >>
Yup, you basically hit it right on the money. So sad, especially the R16's they would look real depressing after the few days of having a clean exterior.
That is a thing of beauty, man. Nice pics!
Think how appropriate this scheme would be now on the R142/143's, complementing the color on the inside.
Between the R32-R42, the R40's got the worst of it of the stainless steel cars, I think almost every R40 car had a top to bottom whole car mural but you're right the painted cars were graffitied to the point that the car shouldn't even be in service and when the car had no lights and no A/C combined with whole car murals, its so bad I can't comment on that :-x . I have seen pics where R44's and R46's got covered with heavy graffiti and top to bottom whole cars on the 75 footers, amazing stuff. I even seen a few R68's get hit with graffiti as well but that was stainless steel so it came off faster.
If ANYTHING (grafittied) should HAVE BEEN preserved,
I'd have saved the car that had been tagged in orange
with MERRY CHRISTMAS along the body.... that or the
Pizza Pie car...
Tho, I've seen (no pun) some NIFTY Images online of the
work of SEEN; and not to mention GCT Store had a nice postcard
of one person's poetic epilogue about "HOW THE LEXINGTON LINE
DETERIORATED WITH GRAFITTI" all written on the car panel
holding the (r22) numberplate...
I have a book that was published in the early 90's that is called "Subway Art". It's an all color book, and really is very interesting. WHile I don't agree with the authors (they basically were sort of condoning the vandalism and were sorry it was about to die), it is very interesting. The book ends with one of the current redbird class cars with a graffiti "Mural" (for lack of a better word, because I still feel there is no art in destruction) with something like "Graffiti died 1992, then headstones with RIP-IRT, RIP-BMT, and RIP-IND" all along the side of the car.
All in all, even though I hate graffiti, I found it a very interesting book, and very worth reading and looking at the photos.
I have the book also. The pictures also show some of the more interesting pieces that were done were covered over with later throw-ups.
The artist obviouslt=y has some talent, but he/she was lazy and disrespectful of others. There are lots of ways to get your work "out there" and this person made no effort to do so. On the other hand, passengers and crew were inconvenienced with smudged windows and obscured destination signs, and the impression of neglect was good neither for MTA nor its riders.
You talk as if the system was in tip top shape besides the graffitti, which is unfortunately completely false- the windows, if there were windows, needed replacing. Destination signs? I remember cars with NO destination signs whatsoever. The trains hadn't been painted in years-they were covered with peeling paint and rust. I'm not saying graffitti was good at all, but c'mon, you can't say graffitti did anything bad to that system. You couldn't do anything bad to a system in that bad of shape.
The graffiti cost the MTA money b/c they were constantly repainting them until they saw it was no use. Not only that, you had insufficient front destination signs, horrible MDBF [the average was 6000 miles before breakdowns] in which R16's and R44 were even more below that, broken windows, malfunctioned doors that flew open while trains moved or didn't open when stopped at a station, loads of speed timers and I could go on and on.
I don't EVER remember the TA painting over graffitti, unless you count the white painted IRT trains. They painted over graffitti in STATIONS, true, but all of the 10's,12's,14's,15's,16's and 17's I remember wore coats and coats of graffitti over rusted out MTA blue and silver.
I also meant to say, you are otherwise completely correct.
Yup, I'll have to agree with you there. Illegal or not, I consider some Graffitti to fall into the realm of art and this subway car has definitly been turned into a piece of art. If only all graffitti was of that caliber, nobosy would ever have a problem w/ it.
If only all graffitti was of that caliber, nobosy would ever have a problem w/ it.
Once again, Mike, you boldly proclaim... and once again, you're absolutely wrong.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If Rembrant came and painted on your house I doubt you would tell him to stop. If stinkweed smelled like a rose it wouldn't be called be called stinkweed and people would pick it and give it to their girlfriends.
Besides, I can quantify over an empty set as much as I want. If the "if" premise will never be true, the entire statement is logically true. For example "If Unicorns ride the subway then 2+3 = 5" is a true statement because it will never be wrong. Since all graffitti will never be art I can say anything I want and my statement will be logically true. Its called proving something vacuously.
The only problem is that what or what isn't art is based on personal opinion, so you didn't prove anything. All you prove is that to YOU, personally, graffitti isn't art. Prove it, you say? I can. I bet that if you were to go in the Museum of Modern Art, there would be a whole lot of things that you would say aren't art. A lot of artists would say Rembrandt isn't art, and how could you prove otherwise? How can you prove opinion?
I've been to MOMA and by golly I'll not have you disparaging wush groundbreaking works such as the square of polished wall paint (yes, someone just sanded down a patch of MOMA dry-wall and called it art).
BTW I am also a member of MOBA, the Museum of Bad art.
*L* That's funny.
Actually, if Rembrandt really WERE to come and paint on someone's house, I'd bet they'd scream bloody murder. After all, it isn't his property to deface. Hell, in rich subdivisions the housing committee has to approve the color of your house before you can paint it. Here in North Carolina, in a town called Cary, a homeowner ran into a huge struggle with a neighborhood housing committee because he bought a van, and the others in the neighborhood told him having a van made their neighborhood look bad (of course, what they REALLY were worried about was their property values). I think those people, art lovers or not, would freakin' FLIP if Rembrandt came and painted on their house. He'd have to go down to the ghetto and find a liquor store wall, or the side of an apartment building.
Actually, if Rembrandt really WERE to come and paint on someone's house, I'd bet they'd scream bloody murder. After all, it isn't his property to deface.
Actually, they'd be too shocked to scream, having seen a 500-year-dead corpse come to life.
Oh, Christ....*L*
You did *NOT* fully prove why graffit isn't art! Yes, the MTA & many people who saw it on subway trains didn't see it as art but others did and while I'm *>NOT<* saying it was right, it did give wonderful colors to a dull looking fleet. There are artists who DO paint graffiti murals on walls legally so you're saying that is not art? You can say it is true logically but you're not proving yourself.
No no no, I just just posed a conditional with a premise that will never be true, namely that ALL graffitti will be art at some point (art using some sort of quality definition). I think that fails by the definition of graffitti. Anyway, I was just getting bak at Anon by explaining how under the rules of logic that if the premise will never occur then you can draw any conclusion from it and the result is a logically true statement.
My friend, I disagree. I think all graffiti IS art. Tagging styles are improvisations on calligraphic forms. Studying them helps to appreciate them. Some tags are simply of poor quality because the writer is new and doesn't know what he's doing, or is interested only in fame and not aesthetic appeal. But every tag needs to have flow, style, and internal balance. Alot of thought goes into the scrawl you see on city blocks. It may be ugly to you, but it's beautiful to me.
I have to agree that grafitti is an "art". So is a sloppy paint job with drips. And other works of "art" superimposed on top of the original "art".
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I refrain from making comments about someone's eyesight.
Do you really think that's great artwork? It would have been good if the whole car was one big mural but the picture you posted is a mishmash.
Alot of times there was a single mural on the side of a subway car. Not a work of art. But it looked nicely done. It wasn't sloppy. But as time went on alot of "artists" ruined the mural by adding to it. A throw-up here. Some words added there. Like the old saying "Too many cooks spoiled the broth"
>>> But as time went on a lot of "artists" ruined the mural by adding to it <<<
Kind of "what goes around comes around" since the original mural artist had no respect for the property which he used.
Tom
Kind of like a poetic justice?
Agggh,,,,,pity the poor IRT car in the 70s and 80s, hapless canvasses for the criminally inclined. You have to hand it to this crew, they did a pretty creative job on that R17.
I still think the Krakatoa volcano mural on the Flushing R36 car took the cake. Plus the Wizard/magic murals on the Queens IND slant and R-7.
wayne
If anyone's interested in pursuing the art-vs-defacement thread, I think I saw a book in the cultural studies section at St.Mark's Bookstore on the taggers and I could look for it again. I just went "Oh, god, somebody's trying to get tenure," and I didn't think of it as something that might be interesting to Subtalk. Duh.
I remember some poster on this board saying that the collection of
PCC cars owned by the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM in peris california
were going to be shipped >>>>>>>>RIGHT AWAY<<<<< pronto !!! asap..
to san francisco to thier muini pcc collection !! ............lol !!
well that aint going 2 happen ! ............HELL NO !!
was there today and asked around 2
see 4 myself ...........................NOPE !!!!
anyway muni aint going to give the ORANGE EMPITRE MUSEUM any money!!
or at least a trade !....@.. the cheap bastards !!
here are some of them on the lot being RESTORED not sittilg around
"""RUSTING""..........!!............LOL !!
No clue what you are talking about, but that is a nice photo.
Very nice photo, including the Brill Bullet car with the PCC.
thankz........the photo was taken with a sony DSCP51 digital cam
sells at JR or B&H for aprox. $200-250 ...................
there was a poster on THIS BOARD who swore up and down that the
ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM in peris california was just allowing these 2
MUNI PCC cars to """"""rust away"""""..............!!.....??
@ not true at all & that MUNI was going to ""run down there""
& sweep them up and take em' back 2 frisco !!
What a bunch of crap !! .................not true !!
come out of hiding you nut !! .........................lol !!
Sorry to inject some fact into your rant but yes, Muni has purchased two of the PCC cars from OERM, numbers 1033 and 1039, for $9500 each. That gives Muni 22 restorable PCCs but there doesn't seem to be much action in restoring them, or funds to do so...
1033 being the car on the right in Salaamallah's photo...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
i went to the the folks who know this stuff the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM
what they told me is that san francisco's MUNI folks have to make em'
a better DEAL than the one that exhists now.
While i re-newed my membership at the museum i talked to just about
everybody at the museum who knows about about this.
It seems that san francisco wants too much candy for a nickel ....
many folks at the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM are a bit teed off about this.
Also the last deal is off and they need a working car or parts or &
at least a better price than what currently ehxists.
I can only go but what was told to my face in person by them ..!!
sorry , sincerely salaamallah ........2 year member .......
Well, if you already knew the deal was off why did you start this thread in the first place??
because when i was told the deal was either halted or off i thought
the subject was something that may be of interest on this board
and especially to those who thought the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM was
going to give san farnciscos MUNI some of the best PCCs they saved,
from going to total SCRAP in the first place etc....
some of the information i made sure i heard form the horses mouth
( at the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM ) in person that is ...etc...
& also that there are some other complications that went down,
that also might be of interest to us rail museum railcar fans ..
I do hope this is an on topic thread is it not ??.....
....if it is not not my sincere apology to this board...!
sincerely, salaamallah
also a follow up northen and southern california dont like each other
it is like the southerners who call new yorkers " yankee "
you know what i mean folks...
well this same bad blood ehxists here as well... in the same state!it seems that this battle of the civil war goes on even in cali..!!
..lol
Of course its on topic. Your original post was not exactly clear on the fact that the deal was off, as opposed to it being your opinion that the OERM shouldn't "give" PCCs back to MUNI-- the original deal was for nearly $10,000 apiece-- quite a bit of money I'm sure for a museum with lots of projects on its plate. Your original post also said "collection of PCC's" whereas we're only talking about 2 cars that OERM hasn't even restored (and since they weren't southern California cars to begin with it seems unlikely that they'd take priority on any list of the museum's projects). Maybe the deal wasn't as good as OERM would have liked but they certainly weren't giving them away.
yea it seems to me like they are fighting each other like some
kind of civil war or something like that
they are very fond of the fact that they are the largest western
rail museum and they want to keep it like that
they see MUNI as some big shot outfit
that has huge government funding at the taxpayers expense etc...
unlike the uniqueness of them ( private funding only )
and that the north is stealing from the south !!.....lol !!
I will keep my eye on the ball on this one as i counted aprox 10 or
pcc type rail cars stored at the museum site
seems like i find some new rolling stock of some type there etc..
( stay tuned ) 2 the new civil war !!
( the war between southern / northern california ...lol !!
the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM is like a close knit family verses some
""northen yankee"" MUNI that did not save the PCC MUNI cars in the
first place !
the way the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM sees theis is that MUNI has a lot
nerve SUDDENLY demanding thier old saved rolling stock back
if MUNI did it thier way they would have scrapped them long ago !
the nerve of those folks up north to think these cars are thiers
and we should just fork em over & not make a deal that helps us
any to help us with our HARD WORK here at our museum !!
.......some of what i was told by a old man ( motorman )....
.......
MUNI is so desparate for cars (passenger traffic on F-Market/Embarkadero is literally packing the available equipment to the doors.) that MUNI got additional Witts from Milan, but they have had to put cars from the historic collection in revenue service just to try and keep up with the demand.
They looked at rebuliding the hulks stored on Pier 38 for years.
Milan is supposed to be getting new LRV's late this year, and supposedly MUNI has a signed deal for up to 40 Witts. All MUNI has to when the Witts arrive is pull the pantographs off, add two trolley poles, a farebox and radio and the cars are ready for service, and the operators don't have to be trained and they actually prefer the Witts to the PCC's
Both Market Street Railway and MUNI are working on restorations. MSR does the interiors and MUNI does the electricals.
Almost 10 grand each for the two cars is a deal. MUNI pays the shipping.
Since you are a member of OERM, talk to the Board and get their side.
This is really hot stuff !
Years back we couldn't scrap PCC's fast enough and now we're going nuts to find them. May National City Lines rot in their grave !!
Bill "Newkirk"
You are not kidding.
MUNI even thought about ripping up the Market St. tracks when the BART/MUNI subway opened and the Boeing Bombs arrived.
Then the Historic Fleet started showing up, and an idea began to brew. MUNI buys 29 beat-up 1948 vintage PCC's from SEPTA, has Morrison-Knudson rebuild them (at 654K per car) and they get 29 brand new 1948 PCC cars. They paint them in the colors of almost every city that had PCC's. They rebuilt the Market St. tracks, started the F-Market line.....and the public loved them. Almost from the start the strretcars were hauling more people than the 2 trolley coach lines the F replaced.
At the same time, MUNI was working on a solution to the terminal problem that had plagued the MUNI subway since it opened: a two-track stub terminal with crossovers that couldn't handle the traffic.
The solution was an extension south that curved to a new portal at the Ferry Building and headed north on the Embarkadero.
The F-Market was so hot and some bright fool at MUNI got "the idea". Instead of LRV's, hook the Embarkadero tracks to the F-Market line.
So, it was done.
The rest of the story was in my previous post.
The solution was an extension south that curved to a new portal at the Ferry Building and headed north on the Embarkadero. The F-Market was so hot and some bright fool at MUNI got "the idea". Instead of LRV's, hook the Embarkadero tracks to the F-Market line.
Yabbut the MUNI Metro portal and tracks head *south*. South of the portal the trackage is served by the MUNI Metro; north of the ferry building by the "F" line. (In between the MUNI Metro portal and the ferry building there is no surface service). They want to start an all-Embarcadero "E" line using the heritage fleet but there aren't enough cars.
My guess is that the E line may start when the possible additional Witts arrive.
The car situation is what I mentioned. I've pulled shots off the web showing Witts and PCC's with swinging loads as late as 2:00 AM.
It's a real show, with real loads and all the problems that occur on common carrier transit systems. Collisions, deralments, road failures, MUNI and MSR know them all.
My guess is that the E line may start when the possible additional Witts arrive.
Not unless they built a loop at the southern end of the line....
AFAIK design is underway for precisely that loop. As one might expect, money is not yet committed for the project so no date for operation. SF Muni is facing a deficit this budget cycle, so everything is being squeezed.
Not to be picky, but Muni did NOT buy 29 Philadelphia cars....they only got 14 of them. They are numbered 1050 to 1063.
If those are the cars I'm thinking of, stored on the "dead track",
they're pretty rough.
that is not a dead track at all ...sorry
>>> and since they weren't southern California cars to begin with it seems unlikely that they'd take priority on any list of the museum's projects <<<
It would be a mistake to think the museum is so parochial that it would concentrate on Southern California cars, although it has several former PE red cars. My favorite car there is this double decked Irish car that I first saw there 35 years ago in an almost unrecognizable unrestored condition.
Tom
Tom, looking at that Irish car, isn't that dangerous? Where is the pole(s) mounted and what's to stop someone on the top deck from touching it and getting zapped?
>>> Where is the pole(s) mounted and what's to stop someone on the top deck from touching it and getting zapped? <<<
From the picture it seems that pole is fairly far forward on the upper deck. I assume it is well insulated. I have not been fortunate enough to see the car in operation (and the picture shows the top deck empty), just the before and after sightings on different trips to the museum. I have also seen pictures of old double decked open Brighton trams where the pole was mounted on an arch over the upper deck.
Tom
Let me touch on a couple of things at once. First of all, San Francisco Muni PCC's #1033 and #1039 at Orange Empire were sold to the San Francisco Municipal Railway in October and are now awaiting shipment to the bay area. I hadn't heard the purchase price, but I'll certainly trust Dave's figure of $9,500 per car.
Second, those two PCC's aren't the only Muni cars that OERM is returning north. Muni "Iron Monster" #162 is going to be sold to the Market Street Railway Association, a nonprofit group which helps Muni restore and maintain its small fleet of historic cars (not the 1050-series PCC's) that are used on the F-line. The price that OERM has named is $70,000 - an almost unheard of price, especially considering the fact that #162 is not in particularly great shape. MSRA is currently doing fundraising for this project - more can be learnt at their website, [http://www.streetcar.org].
Also, Old Tom said "It would be a mistake to think the museum is so parochial that it would concentrate on Southern California cars." Actually, it would be *accurate* to think that Orange Empire is concentrating on Southern California cars. Their mission statement, available in PDF format at [http://www.oerm.org/pages/collection_policy.html], states that their purpose is to preserve and display cars from systems "...in the West and more specifically in Southern California."
OERM has shown a willingness to deaccess cars not from their immediate geographical region, if there is interest (and money) elsewhere and if the cars have not already been heavily invested in by OERM. This is actually very a very respectable position from the perspective of current collection management thinking: the idea that, if one museum can't take care of some of its cars, it ought to do what's best for the cars by selling them to someone who can (note that selling cars is NOT always what's best for them). Whether Muni will actually restore #162, #1033 or #1039 remains to be seen, but the willingness by OERM to "repatriate" these cars is a staunch rebuttal to the "it's ours and you can't have it" collections rationalization view of too many people in the preservation industry. From where I stand, it isn't a big problem if these Muni cars go back to San Francisco and OERM's money is instead spent on the 1001, 1299 or 332.
Frank Hicks (donning asbestos helmet)
Frank, reading your response regarding Orange Empire is a real treat. It is good to see railway museums deaccesing pieces to other properties. For the first five decades of railway "preservation", you'd have a fist fight at a Board meeting when someone dared to propose that a car or locomotive go "back home". Orange Empire is a fine organization but, like almost all of its peers, it has more than it can ever handle. Sending a car back to its original property for possible use is the best form of "preservation" there could be, although we might have real reservations about modifications made for handicapped. However, there are few surviving cars in museums that were never modified. Baltimore might be an exception. It was usually the modified cars that were able to last until the end of service. Thanks for championing the right thing to do. We have some local museums that have started to send cars "back home" to museums in the region from which they came. That is to be applauded and encouraged. Right now the model museum is the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum. They don't acquire what doesn't belong in the first instance.
No flames from this corner, Frank. I agree 100% that if another
group wants the car and there is more interest there and a better
chance of conservation and interpretation, and the car is not
particularly germane to one's scope of collection, then it should
go to the better home. If the car is going to be chopped for
parts or horrendously modified at the "better home" then it probably
isn't better. I don't think that's going to happen with MUNI.
OERM, which at one time was drawing pretty
heavy flak for over-collecting, has been "rationalizing" its
collection over the past few years and has become a very professional
museum. They've chosen to focus on southern CA.
Unfortunately some of the northern CA/ southern CA
issues are clouded by the stormy relationship between OERM and WRM.
wrong again they have rolling stock from many other cities and the
world as well even a japanese trolley and the street car named desire
from louisiana !!
they have the key cars and other rolling stock sacramento northern
electric locomotives ( not just southern california )
man some of you on this board just dont get it at all .........!
I didn't say that the collection was exclusively Southern California!
I am well-acquainted with OERM and their collection. What I said
is that they have made a choice, during the last decade or so, to
focus themselves on Southern California. FOCUS. Just as, I'm sure
you realize, when a camera is FOCUSED on a particular spot, other
objects not exactly in the focal plane are still reasonably clear,
a collections focus does not EXCLUDE other items. It merely suggests
that if the item is not part of the center of focus, and if the
museum has not already invested heavily in the piece, that perhaps
another organization that is focused on that piece would be a
better caretaker.
Now, that doesn't mean you give it away. A car is an asset and
the museum should be compensated for it. Hard to put a dollar
value on cars though, since they are more often traded than sold
outright.
you said ,
"Let me touch on a couple of things at once. First of all, San Francisco Muni PCC's #1033 and #1039 at Orange Empire were sold to the San Francisco Municipal Railway in October and are now awaiting shipment to the bay area. I hadn't heard the purchase price, but I'll certainly trust Dave's figure of $9,500 per car"
not sooooooooo fast the deal is off !!
i know from what i was told there last sunday !!
...............!
Do you believe EVERYTHING that some railfans tell you?
Man, some people on this board are pretty GULLIBLE!! (just to paraphrase a certain poster with HIS closing line....hahahahahha!)
no but the head directors on the museum told me to my face ..
was he telling me a lie ........................??
U----decide...!
i think you need to know how extensive thier collection is before
posting like some of you do who such experts !!
like i said the pcc to muni deal is off ..
next time i am there i will take another photo of them being worked
on for future museum rides ant the museum right there !!....lol !
any one on this board a member of the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM ??
& so what in the hell are you talking about if you dont know !..??
..............
i think you need to know how extensive thier collection is before
posting like some of you do! who are such experts( so you think ) !!
like i said the pcc to muni deal is off ..
next time i am there i will take another photo of them being worked
on for future museum rides ant the museum right there !!....lol !
any one on this board a member of the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM ??
& so what in the hell are you talking about if you dont know !..??
..............
Hey, you're only supposed to his the send button ONCE.
woops !! you are right .........................sorry folks !
i think you need to know how extensive thier collection is before
posting like some of you do! who are such experts( so you think ) !!
like i said the pcc to muni deal is off ..
next time i am there i will take another photo of them being worked
on for future museum rides at the museum right there !!....lol !
any one on this board a member of the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM ??
& so what in the hell are you talking about if you dont know !..??
..............
>>> First of all, San Francisco Muni PCC's #1033 and #1039 at Orange Empire were sold to the San Francisco Municipal Railway in October and are now awaiting shipment to the bay area <<<
I just checked the OERM rsoter, and see that #1033 is not on it, but #1039 remains as the only SF Muni PCC still on the roster. In addition two other SF Muni cars are on the roster, #162 and #171. Those three are half of the six Northern California cars.
>>> Their mission statement, available in PDF format at [http://www.oerm.org/pages/collection_policy.html], states that their purpose is to preserve and display cars from systems "...in the West and more specifically in Southern California." <<<
I found the collection policy to be even more limited than the Western states to just five companies as follows: "The majority (65%) of the Museum's current Permanent Collection comes from five railroad companies, (in alphabetical order): the Los Angeles Railway, Pacific Electric, Santa Fe, Southern Pacific, Union Pacific, and certain related companies. These are referred to as the Museum's focus companies." It then goes on to state that it will attempt to acquire equipment and artifacts used by the focus companies.
In the area of streetcars, only the PE and LARy are "focus companies" I see that the date of the policy is February, 2000. Before the merger of the Trolley Museum, and the Railroad Museum in 1975, the Trolley Museum was much more eclectic in its collection.
Although I understand the need to focus the acquistions to a limited area, I hope they will grandfather in the few streetcars and trams from around the world that they spent so much time and effort in restoring, and not trade them off.
Tom
They already have restored some cars from around the states and the world...the Irish double-deck tram, a New Orleans car, the Brill Bullet, the Japanese trolley which operates on the small track int he center of the museum.
#162 is also a MUNI "bring her home" car.
See http://www.streetcar.org/news/2002/historyhome/index.html
"Although I understand the need to focus the acquistions to a limited area, I hope they will grandfather in the few streetcars and trams from around the world that they spent so much time and effort in restoring, and not trade them off."
I'm certain they will. OERM is planning on retaining Muni #171, which runs (although not often), as a representative example of the San Francisco fleet. One of the major restoration projects at the moment is rebuilding trucks for their Bamberger (Utah) Bullet car, 127, which is certainly not from Southern California but is quite historic and which has been heavily invested in by OERM. I don't know about the New Orleans car - it's looking pretty sad these days and doesn't run anymore (the roof is peeling off). It's nothing that can't be fixed, though, and since OERM must have gone to the work of regauging the car I wouldn't be surprised if they plan on keeping it and fixing it up.
Frank Hicks
i own a copy of thier official rolling stock fleet as a member
we have the inside scoop on this
the website does not give you all of the information on this..
if you are a member you can by the official booklet with the list
of all museum pieces they own .
The PCC car in the foreground of Salaam's photo appears to be a San Diego 1937 vintage PCC, judging by its paint scheme.
The one on the right is Muni 1033, one of the ones involved in the sale back to Muni.
thats the one that is still operational some of the others are used
for parts etc...
( they want to keep her ) ........................
this is what i was told yeaterday at the museum
sincerely , salaamallah ....2 year member.......
Nice photo. But what is the number and city of origin of the PCC next to Muni 1033. Thanks
San Diego #508 (St. Louis Car Co., 1936).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is that a picture of a San Diego car in the middle with the Muni car to the right of the picture?
i can only guess you are right .....
have to get my book and i will q & a next time i am there
What were you standing on to get the up above angle of the photograph?
-Robert King
thankz i held a monopod up high set the time on viewed the photo on
a lcd hand held tv ( casio ) ...
let it rip as i waited for the timer to beep beep beep then shoot.
hope that helps thankz ..
Everyone is familiar with the photos of those R-44 cars on the LIRR tracks being top speed tested in the snow. (Is it true that half the motors blew out on that train as a result of that test?)
I was just wondering. Does Transit still conduct those high speed tests and if so, where do they take place?
If they do, sign me up as a rider or a photographer :)
---Brian
Count me in too!!
-AcelaExpress2005
Possibly the test track between Howard Beach and Broad Channel on the Rockaway Line.
"(Is it true that half the motors blew out on that train as a result of that test?) "
No.
I December of 1972, MTA tested an R44 train set on the LIRR tracks between Woodside and Jamaica. One run with all four motors per car running; one run with two motors cut out to simulate rush hour SRO crowd loads.
The R44s set an official world speed record for subway cars of 88 mph on four motors per car, and 77 mph for two motors per car. I'm told the train was still accelerating and could have topped out at over 90 mph were it not for its reaching the end of the test track (the rate of acceleration approaches a limit asymptotically).
The motors displayed a phenomenon called birdcaging, where the windings unravel. This is not analogous to the motors completely burning out. With some adjustments, I have no doubt the motors could run at 80 or 90 mph all day. After all, the R44 and R46 were designed for routine operation at 70 mph.
Other Subtalkers have said that in 1972, the LIRR's standard voltage was 660 DC, not the 750 DC of today. Presumably a higher voltage would have caused a problem for the subway cars, which is why the R142 and R143 was not tested on LIRR trackage.
Can anybody confirm that?
I think the "tech revolution" R-142/143's voltage-sensitive components like CMOS/VLSI chips wouldn't have tolerated the higher voltage/current levels on the LIRR. Also, data is carried through the LIRR's "positive rail", which might have hung up the software.
Methinks you are right.
That's my R44!! :)
-AcelaExpress2005
The only place they could do so is probably in the Rockaways.
How about the Sea Beach Express track(s)?
Anybody ever look at the R/W on weekends? It's one after the other after the other after the other. My Q from Canal passed a W at Prince, an R at 23rd, and another W at 49th. And we weren't even going that fast!
Gotta love that Q. And you were on a hippo! See, hippos aren't that slow.
---Brian
Hippos are one of the fastest animals in the Animal Kingdom!
I love when they gain speed when they run express in the city and especially when the (Q) gets detoured to the express track in Brooklyn just love it :-).
"My Q from Canal passed a W at Prince, an R at 23rd, and another W at 49th."
The front W must have been behind schedule. They only run every 8 minutes each, so if they were properly spaced the front W would have been a full 8 minutes ahead of the rear W. But you wouldn't gain 8 minutes on the local between Canal and 57th.
That's common on the R & W on weekends. Rarely & Waiting takes extra long to come then all of a sudden they magically appear.
It's Rarely, Never and Wait forever....
Geez, did the Giants blow that game...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I hope someone out there can help. Did Brooklyn PCC cars have red and yellow stop light lenses and,if so, were they occassionally mixed,that is, a yellow and a red on the same car?
Thanks in advance.
Bob
My faint recollection (remember, these cars stopped running in 1956!) was that all had red stop light lenses on the rear panels, with a yellow-lettered "STOP" indication that lit up when the car was stationary.
just a test post
just a test post
~~^oo^
mmmm.... A scratchingpost!
MEOW
I've never been on such decrepit, derelict subway cars as those running on the 7 line in my life. They should have been retired by now - how did the MTA come about having to run them so long in this condition?
-Robert King
Amazingly, it seems that the 7 line's redbirds, which are/were in much worse shape than the mainline redbirds will outlive the ones that were in better shape, that ran on the Lexington and West side Line. I don't know whey they didn't scrap the 7 line's redburds first. It seems like they scrapped (sunk) the better ones first.
I have a feeling not a single Redbird was running on the mainline today.
The 4 was split at 125th. I rode from Borough Hall to 125th and didn't see anything but R-62's. (No R-33's or R-142A's. I guess their temporary home, due to the weekend GO, was Livonia, and Livonia prefers to deal with R-62's.) I don't know about the north segment, but I doubt the R-33's were in use up there. The 5 was only running north of 149-GC; with such a short route, it was surely only R-142's.
I rode the 7 from Flushing to Times Square later in the day. I was on an R-62A, but I saw six Redbird consists pass (including two mainline R-36 cars at the south end of one consist), plus possibly one more train in the Steinway tube.
Catch 'em fast. They'll be gone very soon.
Late on Friday, I was with two friends and we lucked into a redbird apparantly on #5. Unfortunately, it was really a missigned #4 which ran to Utica and went out of service there.
It wasn't the fact that the redbirds were as rusty as they were, it was the riding quality that got me. That said, I was quite impressed to see the bottom of the end of car door frames totally rusted away at the floor. I remember Gloucster cars that had paint that was falling off in large sheets but they were so close to retirement (actually past their planned retirement) that the steel underneath hadn't had a chance to rust out like the redbirds before the cars were gone. The Gloucsters, and the subsequent TTC subway cars that have been retired, certainly never ran with the bashing and crashing of the redbirds.
I managed to get a few photographs on #7, but the weather was not suitible at all for photography.
At one time, the redbirds must have been good cars, but that time's over...
-Robert King
It could have been a 5. Some 5 trains run to Utica, despite what the map claims. (Remember that most Redbird signs have exposed knobs. If only one or two signs called it a 5, a passenger had probably been fiddling. If all the signs called it a 5, it was a 5. Except during some GO's, the 4 and 5 never share cars.)
The ride quality on the 7's R-36's is quite poor, but it's been quite poor for a long time -- those cars never received the full overhaul that the other cars did, and it shows. The ride quality on the 5's R-33's is fine.
The #5 train was consistantly signed so it must have been legitimate. I did notice that it rode much better than any of the trains I was on on the #7 which have definitely seen better days.
-Robert King
They still are good running cars but the bodies are just taking a beating each day and unfortunately, their time has come to run away into history.
Whatcha got on #5s is flaky Middle Eastern pastry....the anti-climbers
look like 'Sinbads Sweets.' Chop off Carbody and you have a really nasty/dirty chassis but everything is working...we fix the SMS rebuilds and they'll run a couple of decades in work service like the 'Arnines.' CI Peter
To replace all the carbon steel Redbirds, this called for a totally new fleet. NYCT wasn't going to make another batch of R-62/62A's and had their reasons for new technology cars. Hard to believe that the first R-110A's arrived here in November of 1992. With testing and designing the R-142 fleets, it took this long for the redbirds to go swimming. Add to this the delays with caused by bugs in the R-142's. That may explain why the #7 Redbirds lasted longer than they needed to. Also the graffitti wash used in the past accelerated the rust process.
Bill "Newkirk"
Exactly. It's amazing what a can of Krylon can do for a subway car. Make it look pretty and protect from the elements at the same time.
When Redbirds were painted with a Teflon-based coating of paint inside
instead of the old oil based paints, grafitti 'Krylon' was washed off with solvents without the 'tell-tale' traces. Then came 'scratchitti.' Glass windows were destroyed and now the etchings make themselves present on the R142s. We can remove the Mylar laminates from windows and replace them but everything else is permanantly marked. Stainless steel door pilasters can be abraded to mask out damage but glued in Micarta wall paneling is......Kaputsky
CI Peter
The MTA did indeed scrap the wrong Redbirds first but we can't do nothing about it they are already in the sea or scrapped. Those Redbirds on the 7 is dissolving faster than when sugar melts in water. Ok not a good analogy but you get what I'm saying & the funny thing is that the R33/36WF is the youngest of the Redbird bunch.
but... they were the first rebuilt
You've stated the most relevant point.
That's true. They weren't rebuilt as strong as the mainline IRT cars though.
Quite true. They were rebuilt before a more efficient rebuilding method was developed and consequently used for the Mainline cars. The 7's are indeed in worse condition.
Many of the mainline R-33's are still around. They could be kept (either on the mainline or on the 7) as the R-36's are reefed. It doesn't look like that's going to happen, but it could.
The 7's Redbirds will possibly make it to 2004 or 2006, when the first R-38/R-40/R-42/R-44's are retired.
What do the retirements of the R-38-R-44 have to do with the 7's Redbirds?
Sorry, but the 7's Redbirds are in horrific condition, they will all be replaced by the R-142s indirectly.
Personally, I think the R36's are still in ok condition. When St Louis car built these babies, they built these cars to last. Even the ACF R26 and R28 fleet outlasted the R29's and majority of mainline R33's and R36's. But on an overall, and non-revenue note, the R12, R14, R15, R17, R21, and R22's outlasted our redbirds. They run with the "bumble-bee" scheme on work trains but:
THEY ARE STILL RUNNING!!!!
Not underwater like our redbirds.
I take off my hat for St Louis Car Company and American Car and Foundry.
Electrically, mechanically, and pneumatically, the "Redbirds" generally continue to be in good condition. The bodies, however, are another story. People here have posted photographs of fist-size holes in the carbodies -- unfortunately, that's not a rarity.
David
Stick in your thumb to carbody....ain't gonna get a plum! Maybe newspaper, steel wool or a rats nest!!! Redbirds LIVE on the #5.
CI Peter
I've seen them in person. Lookes like the redbird lost a match with Rocky and Mike Tyson.
The last set of R-29's was retired a few months ago.
The last R-26's and R-28's were retired shortly before that.
The mainline R-33's still run on the 4 and 5.
Perhaps you're holding your timeline upside down?
MMMMMMMMMMMMM could be?
Well this has nothing to do with the B division cars but since you brought it up, the R44's aren't going anywhere just yet. Anyway, the 7 Redbirds should have been gone already and the mainline IRT cars should have been transferred there; in fact all the Redbirds would have been gone if the R142's came when they were supposed to but they came late & we got a 5+ year 'treat'.
Add 7136-40 to the list. It left Chambers St northbound around 8:50pm yesterday evening.
Anyone know who manufactures the trucks on NYC Subway trains? I doubt it's Rockwell Automation, since we all know what happened with their trucks several years ago.
Depends on the car class. General Steel Industries of St. Louis
made most of the SMEE trucks.
General Steel manufactured a large number of the trucks used by NYCT. Other manufacturers include:
Adarondack Steel Casting
LFM
Buckeye Trucks
Thank you. :)
Where can I get this book? It sounds like something I would want to have?
Oops, sorry for the extra ? at the end. It might accidentally change the entire meaning and direction of this post.
Just check amazon.com - it was republished recently and is more affordable ($15.40).
-Harry
The Other Side of the Tracks: Over 3000 subway photos.
I bought it about 10 years ago at Tower Record's bookstore in Greenwich Village (which I don't think is even a bookstore anymore). It was not the Tower Records on East 4th/Lafayette. It was on the next block, near the Blecker St station. Anyway Harry (High Bridge) said they just reprinted it and are selling it for $15.40. Sounds like a good deal. The price tag on my book says $15.95, and that was almost 10 years ago. It's well worth the money. It's all color, and a must for railfans (see your favorite redbirds in their prior "paint schemes").
I hate graffiti and even I enjoyed the book. It's interesting.
Service is out right now due to a fire north of Prospect Avenue.
A northbound R-142 train is 2 car lengths out of the station at Prospect Av.
Trains being turned back at 3rd Av and East 180th Sts.
-Stef
Service is out right now due to a fire north of Prospect Avenue.
Adjacent to Intervale, to be precise.
A northbound R-142 train is 2 car lengths out of the station at Prospect Av.
Lead car 6796. I was one of three passengers looking out the window wondering how we were going to get through that mess.
I was railfanning with someone who had yet to see the north ends of the 2 and 6. We had decided on the 2, so we went to the lower level at 149-GC. A 2 pulled in and the C/R announced that it was the last stop. The T/O corrected him: one more stop.
At 3rd Avenue it was announced that service was suspended because of a smoke condition at Intervale. The S/A locked the turnstiles and began distributing the block tickets, with the help of two police officers.
A few minutes later, it was announced that service had been restored, bypassing Intervale. The S/A hadn't been instructed to unlock the turnstiles, so one of the officers opened the gate. We let the first 5 pass but got on the second.
Just after leaving Prospect, the train stopped. The smoke was getting thick and someone on the tracks (a track worker? a crew member from the next train?) seemed to be urging our T/O not to proceed. Eventually, the T/O and C/R keyed open a few doors. It took another few minutes for the S/A to receive authorization to distribute block tickets.
I don't know what happened then. We gave up on the 2 and walked over to the 6.
Service was restored by 7:30PM.
-Stef
Good thing we didn't wait around!
Service started running with empty trains. One empty #5 proceeded to Prospect Av and remained for a few minutes.
Northbound 2s and 5s went up the middle initially, but have since started running normally.
Trains were turned quickly at Jackson Av. There was a second T/O on the south end ready to go back into service at 3rd Av!
-Stef
P.S. As odd as it might seem, 14 years ago at Intervale Ave, the station burned with the furniture store next to it. Today,
the furniture store burned next to that station.... Intervale is one unlucky street!
Yes they had a relay guy at the north end and regular T/O who brought the train from Flatbush walk to the south end. Relay guy boarded train at 3Av and took it to Jackson Av middle. I guess the relay guy was from Mott since there was already a GO going on the Lex. The 5s were terminating at Mott and heading back uptown.
Yes, they had a relay guy at the north end and regular T/O who brought the train from Flatbush walk to the south end. Relay guy boarded train at 3Av and took it to Jackson Av middle. I guess the relay guy was from Mott since there was already a GO going on the Lex. The 5s were terminating at Mott and heading back uptown.
That would explain why they managed to get the 2s out of Jackson Middle so fast. Where were you when all hell was breaking loose?!?
-Stef
When I signed on, it was already in full effect. Actually I thought it would be over by the time I got up to Mott. But we got there, the annoucement was made that 3Av will be our last stop and there was shuttle buses on the street level. Suprisingly, I got no complaints from the customers. None whatsoever. I guess I said the magic word(s). Between yesterday and Friday, I see why they call it "da beast".
Good to hear...I thought David J. was up to some MORE devilment! :)
Darn R-142's don't have rollsigns. Not much damage I could do.
LOL!
Ok, I guess this may serve as the story I asked for in another thread, but I would have appreciated a more graphic description of the nauseating smoke conditions.
My son and I decided to railfan the northern ends of the 2/5. We made it to Dyre, and on the way back they were turning 2/5 at 180th. We skipped going th 241st, and rode the "Shuttle Bus" back to 149th & 3rd. Man was that F---ed up. The bus passed a block from the fire. That was some fire. You could not see the station it was so encased in smoke.
There was an actual shuttle bus? Where did they find the buses and B/O's? We were just directed to the bus map.
Those who missed it can read up on it.
The news made it all the way to Montana?!? Oh my...........
-Stef
I'd like to know what the clerk in the booth at Intervale Ave was doing in the middle of all of this. I don't know if I would want to remain in a booth with a heap of smoke coming my way.....
-Stef
The clerk probably was told to evacuate the booth and go to the next one.
After 9/11 was there a bulletin about the proper procedure for evacuating a token booth?
Not that I'm aware of, unless someone else knows.
I believe that before you do leave the booth you are supposed to secure your funds.
-Stef
All they have ever told us is:
" If you have to leave the booth take the tunrstile keys, token cabinet keys and booth key and wait at the top of the stairway nearest to the booth."
As far as Station evacuation, there is a bulletin: We hit the EBCS. A manager or supervisor will assist in evacuation (as will police/fire) adn set u[ a command post near the station. If the station is a deep station a supervisor will operate a spare elevator and escaaltors will be reversed or stopped to evacuate a station. The S/A will make annoucnements over the PA system and close the wheels.
" If you have to leave the booth take the tunrstile keys, token cabinet keys and booth key and wait at the top of the stairway nearest to the booth."
I think you're also supposed to call the Field Office on the booth phone and/or call Station Command via EBCS before leaving.
I don't know where they got the BO's but they were running an actual shuttle service using articulated buses, signed up as "Subway Shuttle". It went under the EL stopping at every station. Crowded as heck. At Interval, it went around the block.
When did this all happen? I was in New York last night and saw numerous buses on North End Avenue last night and this morning saying SUBWAY SHUTTLE.
If you want to railfan the WPR line do it during rush hours, it is better, faster service, plus you can ride the <5> and watch it going in and out of the yard
I did not have enough work to do this morning... actually, I had *plenty* to do, but did this instead.
Still worting over the "S" curves on the (7), and what might be done to improve service in Western Queens (I have other plans for Eastern Queens... so that does not enter in here). The restriction I have set is that there are no new crossings, and no new trains, although there are new routes.
The most sailent alteration is the elimination of the (7) train on the Flushing line. It is replaced by the (R) train, which together with the (N) from Astoria co-habitate in the 60th Street tunnel, and run local on Broadway. The < R >s turn back at Whitehall and or the Lower Level of City Hall.
The (7) gets a new line along Hunters Point Avenue, following the LIE, Woodside, Metropolitan, and thence down Union Turnpike to Farmers Boulevard.
There is a new (V) train from the 53rd Street Tunnel that follows Queens Boulevard (via a subway) thence eventually east on Jewel Avenue.
Here is the map:
And the resulting strip map:
Elias
Please provide a link to the map if you can. I can't get it, {though I've gotten every other map you've posted on this board.}
Ok... Street Map
and
Routes Strip Map
Elias
Thanks! Nice map.
Is the R really enough service for the Flushing line?
The 7 train runs IIRC at a maxiumum of 24tph with 11-car trains of 51'x9' cars. Arbitrary capacity number 24x11x51x9 = 121,176.
The R train runs IIRC at a maximum of 9tph with 10-car trains of 60'x10' cars. Arbitrary capacity number 9x10x60x10 = 54,000.
The R train can run a maximum possible of 17tph (to allow the current 13tph to Astoria) with 10-car trains of 60'x10' cars. Arbitrary capacity number 17x10x60x10 = 102,000.
To run the R train at current headways would therefore be in the region of a 55% service cut. To run the R train at headways enough to max out the 60th St tunnel would still represent a 15% service cut.
To "break even" you would need 20tph on the R train, meaning that Astoria would have to lose 3tph. Short of re-opening the Queensborough Bridge, I don't see anywhere these could be sent.
All that said, I like your new fantasy. Especially clever is the routing of the 7 train along the LIE and an express V train!
Just a thought - some stress could be taken off the R train in your plan - maybe the necessary 15% - by an extension of the M train along the NYCRR ROW to Grand Avenue, then under Grand Avenue, Corona Avenue, then that ROW parallel to 43rd Avenue (whether on surface or in subway) which IIRC extends to Flushing - tada! two Flushing lines!
Your point is well taken, and I have given some thought to this.
It might work if taken in context of my Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway, which has several express lines running on Northern Boulevard.
Elias
A little tangential to our topics, but:
http://www.newsday.com/features/printedition/queenslife/ny-qldiary3072800jan05,0,3059619.story?coll=ny%2Dqueenslife%2Dprint
I was at 59st making the transfer to the 1 today, and I saw the A going downtown. All A trains terminated at Jay Street, and continue on a shuttle bus to another station which escapes me at this moment. This wasn't any A train though, it was an R46. One of the car numbers I remember was 6144. Pretty cool to see!
It was from Jay St-Utica Av.The C ran from 168St-Chambers St E platform because of it.And are you sure that you saw an R46? It's impossible since there are none assigned to 207St or Pitkin Yards.
Maybe a normal "A" consist broke down and an emergency train had to be brought in from CI yard via the "F"?
Maybe so but the E does have R46's at Jamaica as well so that's another possibility.
The north segment of the A (as well as the entire shortened C) had no access to Pitkin, which, along with the south segment of the A and the Rockaway shuttle, was effectively cut off from the rest of the system. I'm surprised there weren't enough R-38's at 207 for the north A segment plus the C, but I guess some cars had to be borrowed from Jamaica for the GO.
That R46 may have been borrowed from Stillwell yard, it's closer to Jay Street than the Jamaica yard
All R-46's are assigned to Jamaica. Some, used on the F, are stored at Stillwell. Since A trains were terminating at Jay, it's a good guess that the train in question ran up the Culver from Stillwell and crossed to the A.
Am I sure? I'm more than sure...
You did provide a car # in your previous post so you confirmed the sight of the R46.
Well, you did see at least one of two R-46 "A" trains in use on that short 207th Street-Jay Street runs yesterday (Sunday, January 6, 2002). I did ride on one of them from Broadway-Nassau Street to 59th Street-Columbus Circle on an uptown trip, and ironically, the car that I sat in was the same number as that of my current E.R.A. membership...#5783!!!
-William A. Padron
[normally thinking R-10's]
No, I didn't ride it and Iwasn't out there I was referring to the topic starter. Well, that's interesting to ride in the car # that is also your ERA membership.
This has to be first time you've spoken up when something other than our beloved R-10s was the topic of discussion.:)
>>>It's impossible ....<<
NOTHING is impossible, stop talking in absolutes.
Peace,
ANDEE
Don't tell me what to do.I do what I want,I do what I feel like. You don't like it,tough break.
Cool. There was a shuttle bus on the A btw Jay St & Utica Av[the station that is escaping you], damn if I knew I would of rode it. I wonder where they got the R46 from to run on the A......
Oh Damn!!!! R46??? I like the R46's because of their fast acceleration and their quietness, damn I wish I was there to see it.
-AcelaExpress2005
Maybe an F that got switched over to the A at Jay Street?
You weren't seeing things. Three sets of 8 car R46s were sent from Coney Island Yard to operate in A line service because the line was short three trains while the G.O. was in effect.
What you may not have known was the the G.O. originally called for trains to turn at Jay Street on the two center tracks of the station, but it was revised so that the trains would cross over to the the F track at Jay Street then make a long relay to Church Avenue before coming back to Jay Street and then going in service to 207th Street.
When I first saw the service advisory, I thought A trains were going to relay at 4th Avenue, and I was going to go to Smith-9th to get pictures of R-38's. Then I looked at the track map and saw that wasn't necessary, so I skipped the whole deal. Now you're telling me I should have gone!
You should have. You'd have seen 38s and 44s going over the viaduct. Would have made for great pictures!
But then I would have missed the fire in the Bronx!
Any idea if this GO is scheduled for a repeat performance?
As a matter of fact, I think this G.O. is scheduled again for this Sunday coming up. I'll let you know before the week is out.
To all,
I have been out of town for the past week almost. I had been having trouble with my e-mail account prior to my departure. If you attempted to send me any e-mail and got it bounced back to you, please try to resend it ASAP. I will attempt to respond to all my e-mail as quickly as possible upon my return.
Happy new year to you all!
Oren H.
www.orenstransitpage.com
FYI: The e-mail address is oren@orenstransitpage.com if you don't have it readily available.
I didn't try to send you email, but I have been meaning to mention to you that I got to ride a CAF train on New Years Eve on the Green Line. I wasn't sure if they were CAF cars or not, but I had my suspicions, since the interior had the new red/blue scheme (except for the seats in the end-vestibules, which had the usual Metro-mustard color -- not a good mix, IMHO). The only way I could tell I was on CAF cars was by those little stickers at the top of each door, which list the manufacturer and some identifying numbers. The only cars which seem to have prominent builders plates are the Breda cars, which I also rode that day on the Orange Line. I also rode a Red Line train, but I couldn't find any builders plates on that train either. I guess these were Rohr cars.
Can anyone tell me what happened between 3rd Avenue and East 180th around 6PM? First, I had to deal with the 4 train G/O that happens 48 weekends out of 52. Then, when I got to Grand Concourse, they said there were Shuttle Buses between 3rd Avenue and East 180th. I heard something about a fire. Must have been one hell of a fire. I guess the weekend crowd doesn't warrant the risk, unlike Wall Street Execs.
The risk? What risk? There was a fire in a building adjacent to the Intervale Avenue station. Visibility was nil and there was probably a serious choking hazard. The last time I'm aware of that there were similar conditions near Wall Street was on 9/11, and trains didn't run then, either.
Why do some people automatically assume that everything has a racist or classist motive? In making that assumption, they're the racists and classists.
The conductor told me it was a track fire.
Maybe burning embers from the burning building fell on the track starting a track fire.
You know, it's strange. I remember when that station caught on fire, and now this.
Yeah, it is strange. At least the station didn't burn again, it got a bad history and the fire of the building just happened to be near Intervale Av.
My initial complaint was based more on the lack of information given to riders. No anouncement, just a platform conductor who basically knew nothing. An anouncement should have been made BEFORE trains ventured past 125th Street on the 2 or 5. I would rather take the 6 to Pelham Bay for the BX12 than deal with a hastily prepared shuttle bus. Or, the 1 train to 207th for the BX12. I ultimately took the 4 back to 125th, and took an uptown 6 to Pelham Bay where I got the BX12. Communication was the bigest problem. From now on I will take my tranceiver out all the time. I normally leave it home on weekends, and can't hear TA command.
You know how the MTA is plus you can't put full blame on the crew, now if they knew and didn't announce it, then you got a good argument[not that you don't].
couldn't you also take the 4 to the Bx12 as well?
Yeah, there was a INTENSE fire of a furniture store I believe somwhere around Intervale Av I think. The fire is out now but it went 5 alarms, showed it on TV just intense that basically describes it.
I took this today. Look at the train operator....lol
It comes out fine in the preview. I always check, I can't help it. lol
I didn't know Fidel Castro was a motorman/TO on the IRT.
Maybe Fidel Castro will want a bunch of "Redbirds" for use on the Havana subway system that he is planning to build. J/K.
#3 West End Jeff
The redbirds have not died yet!!!
I stand gleefully corrected. Is it safe to assume this is from the Mosholu fleet?
Tony-did you happen to catch any of the car numbers on that train? Nice pic BTW!
#9279 4 Lexington Ave Express
Nope. Sorry about that I usually try and write them down, but my hands were full with a few shopping bags :(
how can you see the train operator? i can barely see him on my screen! It's only 450 x 338 pixels big
I used the 1280 x 960 res. setting on my camera. You can see the operator and a passenger near the railfan window looking up at me. Kinda funny.
Nice place for a photo. I took one there in the mid 80's before attending an ERA meeting. I used black & white film and the #4 R-62 did not have a full width cab.
Bill "Newkirk"
Nice photo! i'm gonna have to try out that spot.
---Brian
Just make sure you don't have any boxes with "fear" written on them.
(^_^)
Special Prison Unit #4 Line Express accepting incarcerated persons from the 14th Street holding pens. CI Peter
Great shot Tony, we may be seeing these type of photos as a distant memory. Now if we had the original R33 rollsigns, that would be a collectors item.
The block ticket claims to be valid for two days, but it isn't stamped with a year. Is the year color-coded?
The block ticket claims to carry the same privileges as a cash fare. Does that include a bus-bus transfer?
The block ticket claims to be not transferable. Does that apply even after expiration (subject to the answer to question 1)? How much does a block ticket typically fetch on eBay? My search turned up only a fellow SubTalker's block ticket from 1973 with a winning bid of $2.50.
Has anybody else here managed to rack up four block tickets in one day?
One memorable day (Sept. 4, 1981) there was a power outage in Manhattan below 59th St. I was on a #3 train in the railfan car (an R-15). Got blocked out at Times Sq., went to 42/8th Avenue, got back on, service stopped on this line too, got blocked AGAIN (ticket #2) walked over to 6th Avenue, rode an R-46 one stop to 34th Street, tried to transfer to BMT, got blocked out AGAIN (ticket #3). Walked to 33/Lex, got as far as 23 St., ticket #4! All in one day.
Impressive! You're a real trooper.
---Brian
1) A Block ticket is good for 3 days. The date punched and 2 days afterwards. It says so under the words BLOCK TICKET. The tickets are punched Jan 5th so it is good for Jan 5th, 6th and 7th. It's unlikely someone will collect a ticket and save it for January 5th of 2004.
2) You would have to ask a bus driver about using a block ticket for a bus to bus transfer. It says it "carries the same privileges as a cash fare" So you should be able to get a bus transfer. It also says it is not "Transferable or redeemable" As an Agent,I accept the tickets only for reentry into the subway within the 3 day period.
3) After the 3rd day, the ticket is worthless. Block tickets from 1973 were different than the current ones. So maybe $2.50 for an old block ticket is cheap. If the ticket is in good shape, it might be worth more. If someone has a complete book of 100 tickets, It'll definately be worth more that $2.50 a ticket. If someone is selling on old block ticket book on eBay, we'll see how much they could get.
4) It's possible for someone to collect 4 block tickets in one day. Maybe the person got 2 tickets accidently from the agent at the booth. Maybe someone found a ticket on the ground, on top of a box or in front of the booth. Maybe they went to another booth on the station and collected another ticket.
I got a few block tickets that day like 3 years ago where there was so much rain that all the N,R and B trains were stopping at Pacific Street. I think I got like 4 or 5, because I just kept going to the gates where they were handing them out and getting another one. Had to do something to kill my bordeom, I used one to get home (didnt get asked for one to get back into the station), and gave the rest out that day at work.
I've never received a block ticket.
So aren't you going to tell us the story about how you got 4 block tickets in one day?
---Brian
1. Years are color coded, in fact now every 3 months the old bus transfer[the ones prior to 7/4/97](now used as shuttle bus transfers) the colors change.
2. I only got a block ticket [*NOT* for a shuttle bus] one time b/c of a shutdown on the F a couple of years back and I was forced to take the B68 and I DID in fact get a transfer from the bus driver so the answer is yes.
3. Doesn't look like a block ticket would fetch much value.
4. How did you manage to get 4 block tickets in 1 day? Never got 2 in one day so I definitely didn't get 4.
1. You're thinking of GO tickets, which aren't date-punched. Block tickets are entirely different. Notice that, of the four block tickets, two predate the MTA's pacman logo. (As for the actual bus transfers, they were orange and blue, one for each direction. The transfer was physically stamped with the route number and date, and the B/O tore off the top of the transfer so it was only valid for an hour or two.)
4. I got one at 3rd, and then service started up, but only as far as Prospect, where I got another. I was railfanning with someone else, who gave me his tickets.
Here's the last block ticket I got, it has no date on it:
TA hasn't used that block ticket in years. At least 10.
But I was still able to use one a few months ago. :-)
Possibly longer. They use the longs horizontal pink and purple ones nowadays. I don't know how long they had it in the current long paper one that you punch the date in but it was used since the old two tone blue M logo was out.
Here's one from the BMT - also says it is valid for 48 hours and carries the same priviledges as a cash fare... some things never change...
Wow! That's even older than the yellow ticket I saw elsewhere in this thread. I would guess that this ticket dates from before Unification in 1940.
I wonder what would happen it you were to try to use that one?
(Although I'm sure it's worth more that $1.50)
The agent at the booth would be staring at the ticket for a minute wondering what it is before informing you it isn't good anymore. If you have several old block tickets, you could try to sell them on eBay. Not for $3,000 a ticket. Likely for about $1.50 each. And that's a low-ball guess on my part.
Well I did get $2.50 for my block ticket that I sold on eBay.
The agent at the booth would be staring at the ticket for a minute wondering what it is before informing you it isn't good anymore.
If I really wanted to confuse the agent I would try to use this one - ;-)
Wow! (wonder if they'd give it BACK). :)
What was this one for (general Order Transfer)? Franklin Shuttle? When some line was closed and this was for the bus? I have two of these, one from 1992 and one from 1993. I don't even remember where I got this from:
Well this one I have is from 1906 (decades older than me), but it must be from the trolley line obviously.
The last one is very old also, but I have no idea what year.
GO transfers are given out whenever a GO requires a transfer from the subway to a shuttle bus and back to the subway. This past weekend, the GO on the A in Brooklyn used GO transfers. I don't know what happened in the Bronx once the shuttle buses were up and running, but it may have been treated like a GO. (When I was there, nobody knew what was happening next so we got block tickets.)
I guess it's been a while since I got a GO transfer.
I was at the E180th end, and they were giving out block tickets. I diden't bother with one, since I had an unlimited MetroCard.
I had a Fun Pass so I picked up the block tickets for later use. I'll be using two this afternoon and keeping the other two as souvenirs.
The one on the top is used for shuttle buses and they are given most of the time when buses replace the trains so you don't have to pay a second fare from the bus to train and vice versa [of course it doesn't have the old "M" logo now].
Ticket #2 is a transfer from the 14th Street line of the Capital Traction Company in Washington, DC.
Wow, interesting, I never really looked at it closely. I don't even know where I got it from.
I love the MTA's phrase "Transfers are: - non-transferrable".
...And are not to be used for stopovers or roundtrips :0).
As if we all don't know ways of getting around that one!
It was a lot harder back in the old days. Out-of-system transfers were only bus-to-bus (except for GO's and the Franklin shuttle), and they were only valid on designated routes at designated transfer points (although if two routes overlapped for a distance, transfers were usually unofficially accepted anywhere along the overlap). Stop-overs? Sure. Round trips? Good luck.
This is one of the worst yet:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2152519115&category=4152
"When you use buy it now and pay 99 cents from (from your bank account only) from your paypal account, I will e-mail you a link to the best New York subway system website."
Think he'll get any bids?
This was already discussed on SubTalk a few days ago. Here is the link: http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=428044
Looks like he was selling the links to the first 98 people who'd make a bid. Unlike the other thing offered on eBay ($3,000 Metrocard) there is no mention of how many people took him up on it.
If anyone bids on his link, it'll probably be someone who just got a computer for Christmas and doesn't know yet how to surf the internet.
I thought it used to be 99.
That means that somebody actually bought it!
Looks like it. I just looked at the eBay site. About 250 people thought positive about it, 2 neutral and 2 negatives.
Where do you see that? I see the seller has a feedback rating of 383, but that's for all of his auctions.
Scroll down the page.
I still don't see what you're talking about.
Scroll down the page to "HOW TO BUY IT NOW" and click the 2nd link under it.
As I've said, that is his feedback, and it deals with all of his auctions, not just this one.
And there are 634 positive messages, not 250.
It was about 250 on Monday night.
Impossible, since he received only 14 feedback posts in the last 7 days.
We saw this a few days ago but this time, it mentions that it takes money from your bank account. See the thread on the $3000 bid of a Metrocard this guy wanted to auction off and of course he was a loser!
He SHOULDN'T get any bids if people are smart. Anyone gullible enough to buy a link for a website is just stupid. Then when they realize they've been conned, they need to take their keyboard, laptop or whatever and slam it across their faces for being so stupid for buying a link they could search for free.
What is the big deal? Why should we care? It is only 99 cents! That is the price of a newspaper, a cup of coffee or a small tip. His feedback is almost perfect so he will return your money if you ask. Maybe he is a downsizing surviver. He could be supporting a family. Why don't you get angry about the kids who buy M&Ms at a wholesale outlet and claim they are raising money for a imaginary basketball team or program, then they litter the system with the cardboard cartons. What about 10 cent batteries for $1? Will you get a refund from them or good feedback in return? Those are illegal scams that are okay with you I guess.
What is the big deal? Why should we care? It is only 99 cents!
I don't care, I just thought it was funny anyone would be some dumb to think anyone would bid on an auction like that. I didn't know this was already posted here.
Maybe he is a downsizing surviver.
Yeah, that's probably it. He'll get by selling links to 5 people for $5.00, minus the listing fee ($2.20), and then he'll set up a big online store on ebay.
Why don't you get angry about the kids who buy M&Ms at a wholesale outlet and claim they are raising money for a imaginary basketball team or program, then they litter the system with the cardboard cartons.
Actually I wasn't getting angry at anyone. And no, I don't like those ripoff candy crap, but that has little to do with my post or the auction, does it?
Those are illegal scams that are okay with you I guess.
Now where'd you get that idea? Just 'cause I mentioned a dumbass auction doesn't mean I think it's wrong or I think illegal scams are okay. I just pity da fool that pay $1 for what they could find on google, yahoo, ask.com, altavista...
Motorman, I did not intend to attack your particular thread. There are two other threads on the subject that I was trying follow at the same time and I was refering to some of the angry responses they drew. It would have been appropriate to post on the other thread. But while I'm here....I guess I am neutral on the issue. I don't fault him for selling the link and I don't fault anyone for spending a mere .99 to see what's under the "shell". Here's another plus for the buyer....he gets a positive feedback added to his ebay score, that may be worth .99 cents.
Besides, if you're REALLY angry about it, click the banner ad at the top of the subtalk pages :-)
Pay Dave,NOT the scammer, Dave EARNED it.
Pay Dave and get the three cents surcharge off NYC Verizon bills for NYC MTA.....Dave deserves the subsidy.
Vote NO for ratification. CI Peter
If they will spend .99 on just a link that they can get from Google for free, imagine what they will spend at Amazon.com. It will be better for everyone to have such big spenders on board.
Someone needs to setup an identical auction on e-bay with the same title but add the word FREE. That way the FREE auction will show up when the other one is searched for. Then post the link top here in the auction description for everyone to freely see. Then cancel the auction right before it ends so no charges will accrue (double check on this first though.) Just a suggestion.
eBay isn't stupid.
It costs money to PLACE an auction.
Someone needs to setup an identical auction on e-bay with the same title but add the word FREE. That way the FREE auction will show up when the other one is searched for. Then post the link to here in the auction description for everyone to freely see. Then cancel the auction right before it ends so no charges will accrue (double check on this first though.) Just a suggestion.
This will be of interest to the R-10 fans and others. In early 1962 the TA repainted the interior of three subway cars in the World's Fair colors of blue and orange in order to test public reaction.
The cars were R-9 1741, R-10 3219 and IRT R14 5837. The experiment was not a success. I rode the R-14 and the interior was bizarre (IMHO). It was almost as bad as the last ten R-22's. The ones with the dark green speckled paint and the coral pink fibreglass seats.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I remember the 1741's interior, that blue and orange was GROSS!! Never did see the other two....
Actually, those ten special R-22's weren't that bad in my opinion.
Actually, those ten special R-22's weren't that bad in my opinion.
Steve: I guess beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.
Best Wishes, Larry, Redbird R33
I was reading the Pelham Parkway station description on this site. I have lived by this station for years and have found some errors. I am referring to Pelham on the 5 line.
The exit isn't towards the south end of the station. In fact, the exit is smack dab in the middle. The stairs align with the ends of either conductor's car, the end where the conductor's window isn't. The exit stretches from the 5th to 6th car. Was there a different exit at one time? Also, I don't know what the author meant by the platform "tapering" at the end. The platform does not vary in width. The link I'm referring to is here.
I'd love to do my own descriptions if David Pirmann would take a look at them. The Dyre line is my home line and I have a bit of affection for it. :)
Hey, did you know that Joe Valachi did his first "hit" at an apartment house on Pelham Parkway?
If you want to rewrite them, send them along in email.
P.s. please if you're going to make the effort-- don't just send little corrections. These will sit on the pile forever. Take the paragraph from the web page, fix it, and send me back *the whole paragraph*.
ARTICLE interviewing Stan Fischler in Newsday.
Peace,
ANDEE
GREAT article...it's a keeper...thanks for the link, Andee.
I wonder how many of those executives make $100,000+ a year?
$100,000.+ is a piddling sum for upper level management.
So the only question that remains: "Is there too much management?"
Elias
A few too many. They're making too much for their heads being so empty & giving so little to the customers.
Yeah, Stan's a good guy. It's nice to see him getting some press.
Peace,
ANDEE
PS;
RATTAN SEATS?
Multis and Standards used rattan seats.
Good for Stan!
Great article. I have always enjoyed Stans books.
All I can say is get them bums with the six figures out, and get real workers who run the management of the TA!
Hello All:
Here is a new one for me, I never knew Governors Island had a railroad. Check it out....
http://www.geocities.com/tclinard63/Didknow.html
Does anyone have any info on this, particularly how the equipment got there (carfloat, etc).
I also heard that Rikers Island (when it was used as an ash dump, before the jails were built) has a narrow gauge railroad to move the piles of ash around. Anyone know anything more?
THANX!
CONRAD MISEK
Couldn't have actually run on the island. The photo caption said the line was 8 miles long and Governors Island is nowhere near that size!
Im assuming its a typo (perhaps really 0.8 miles) or including yards, sidings, etc (8 track-miles).
From the picture it looks like the line could have been 8 miles long not 0.8. Otherwise why have such a big engine and several freight cars. I would guess a car float.
In 1962 or 1963 the (then) army base would have an open house for the public during Armed Forces week in May. My mom took me and a friend there. Don't remember much other than my first view of a computer which looked like a vertical tape recorder with the reels of tape. Also remember that there were so many people on the island, the Army commandeered a NYC ferry boat, had everyone walk on to the car deck and stand for the 5 minute trip rather than having their ferry make numerous round trips.
There was no evidence or mention of a railroad that day.
Did it terminate at 4th Ave via the Williamsburg Bridge?
(see if you can get the referance :) )
I'll check it out when I have to buy an irregular coat at the Harrisburg coat outlet.
Sorry I have no clue to the referance, nor to Pig's response. Please clue us in. I hope its not too obvious.
This refers to the episode where the Simpsons went to New York to rectify a malparkage and prevent Homer's car from being dumped into the East River at his expense.
The New York Times's site is just reporting this. It says that a train overtuned after a collision. No details yet.
Moron at crossing.
-Hank
Exactly....
ABC news alerted me that a Metrolink train derailed in Burbank...more details supposedly available on their site (abc7.com)
from the NBC4 news website:
Commuter Train Collides With Truck
Yeah, FOX News wass botching the coverage when I checked. One anchor surmised that the train was backing up (presumably due to the fact that the engine was in the opposite direction) and went off on a tirade about how the train should of been running at a slow speed if it was backing up and that it was possibly going too fast which contributed to the disentegration of the pickup truck the train hit. He didn't realize the train was push/pull. Always quick to blame it on the train instead of the person who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
we are watching it now i was just there in burbank shooting trains at
the burbank station last week !! antelope line
OMG !! the 210 train 50 people on board .....
i see the area i know it very well cars are on thier side
Looks like the truck driver has established his eligibility for the 2003 Darwin Awards.
I keep telling you all this. Because Grade crossing accidents are so common, the Darwin Awards has disallowed nomination of all grade crossing and pedestrian bounce related train accidents.
Someone should appeal that decision to the Darwin's Board of Directors.
That more people are doing it doesn't make it any less stupid...
I think it is a requirement of TV news anchors/reporters to know NOTHING about transit. :P
One anchor surmised that the train was backing up (presumably due to the fact that the engine was in the opposite direction) and went off on a tirade about how the train should of been running at a slow speed if it was backing up and that it was possibly going too fast which contributed to the disentegration of the pickup truck the train hit. He didn't realize the train was push/pull. Always quick to blame it on the train instead of the person who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
It is a well known phenomenon that driving trailers (i.e. cabcars) overturn more easily than locomotives.
I haven't done any cost-benefit analyses, but it seems painfully obvious that cab cars are less safe than locomotive-hauled trains. Think back to the fatal accidents in the U.S. over the past decade: how many of them involved cab cars, or passengers riding in the front car when the front car was breached?
A few I can think off-hand: NICTD 1990-ish, MARC 1996, Metrolink last year...
Now remember the City of New Orleans accident where the P42's ran into steel rebars. Imagine if that was a cab car with passengers on board.
MBTA and Metra forbids passengers from riding in the front car during off-peak hours -- probably a smart move. Amtrak uses "cabbages" which provide a buffer zone (and overturning protection, as the cabbages are delibrately engineered to have a low center of gravity).
A simple (and relatively cheap) fix would be to require all new cab cars to carry ballast weights as an integral part of the structure.
AEM7
A simple but not necessarily cheaper fix would be for the FRA to mandate the engines pull the trains out of scheduled terminals. Would it have done any good here, thats another question. The weight and design of the loco might be enough to push a vehicle out of its way as in past operation lifesaver consists, but would it have been enough for its flanges to crush through a vehicle frame and still spot back on the rails?
Which means each agency like NJ Transit, for example, would have to purchase double the amount of engines and position one on each end. Otherwise, It would be totally impractical if not impossible to spend the time and the manpower to disconnect engines at places like Newark Penn (or Hudson Yard or the MMC), run them around to the other end of the consist, and re-attach them.
I believe you are correct. In the event of a crash, having the locomotive absorb some of the energy would lessen the impacton passengers in the cars following.
Notice, however, that there were no fatalities on the train. The train still provided a reasonable measure of protection, even in push mode.
Weight may also play a factor here. The Metrolink cars were apparently part of a train coming from "Canyon Country" around Santa Clarita, and the same line runs through the Soledad Canyon area all the way to Palmdale and Lancaster in northern Los Angeles County.
The trains have to climb up to elevations of about 3,500 feet from near sea level in downtown L.A. to make it through the San Gabriel Mountains, so lighter weight railcars than your normal Amrtrak trains would theorhetically both save fuel and allow for slightly faster climbing speeds in those areas. But at the same time they might also make them more likely to leave the tracks in a train-vehicle collision.
I haven't anything on the wires yet about the trains themselves, but the L.A. Times or AP may have some more info on Tuesday.
IIRC, the last time I rode Metrolink (a good 8-9 years ago now), the entire middle level, basically from the front pair of doors forward was chained off, and the engineer had his door open to discourage gapers from standing infront of or on the stairs and getting an RFW. I was a little kid at the time, and a nice conductor let me up to the head end (this was well pre 9/11) for a quick peek out the front and some questions for the engineer.
If Metrolink still follows this pattern, it affords the passengers a considerable crumple zone, probably capable of absorbing more energy than a GE or EMD wide cab. My apologies to the Engineers, who must be up front, it would be nice to see them get something like the Indycar driver's bathtub to protect them, but that would most likely require a considerable refit of the car and also a set in stone law on forward area riders.
I want to know why the Metrolink UDTC cars keep coming off the track, certainly just throwing weight at the problem won't help any, if anything, it could hurt. I've seen a Chicago RTA Metra Gallery car take the bumper off a pickup, and was within an 1/8th of a mile from the Algonquin Rd School Bus - CNW-NW accident, where the bus's whole body was turned 120 degrees off the chassis. In both instances the Gallery cars remained fully upright, and indeed sustained little damage other than superficial damage from the impact. Even in the Bus accident, where the striking train was an express, doing in excess of 70 mph, and the impact was mostly centered on the left of the cab car's front end, the car stayed fully upright and on track. I'm starting to think that either Bombardier's doing something horribly wrong, or the Metra car's manufacturer did something very right. The Bombardier cars have two full decks, while the Gallery cars have two levels with the top one split into two rows of passengers, just a cargo rack between them. It's likely that the Bombardier cars are top heavy, thus resulting in the rolling of the car.
I actually found Specs for both Bombardier's UDTC BiLevels and Metras early Gallery Cars.
From The Illinois Railroad Museum, regarding the Gallery Car, "The car is 85 feet in length, 15 feet, 10 inches high, weighs 127,900 pounds and rides on GSC single-drop equalizer trucks."
From GO Transit Technical and Operating Details, regarding the Bombardier UDTC Bilevels, "They are 85' (25.91 m) long (length over couplers), 9'10" (3.00 m) wide, and 15'11" (4.85 m) high (rail to roof). They weigh 54.5 tons (49,400 kg) empty." 54.5 tonsworks out to 109,000lbs.
So, the Bombardier cars are actually lighter, perhaps there is something to be said for adding weight to a passenger car. I'm still sticking with my theory that the cars are top-heavy, and thus given to rolling. Or perhaps this can all be attributed to Bombardiers ignorance raising it's ugly head again, perhaps poorly engineered trucks or something. Anyway, I'll digress, for fear of going too far out on a limb.
I've been thinking about this issue of the cab cars leaving the rails myself...as I'm here in southern California and hear about it happening more than I want to.
Yesterday's incident -- and the BNSF collision incident last year -- are not the only ones Metrolink has had involving cab cars hitting something and derailing. There have been two other minor ones and another major one.
The major one was 11/92, one month after Metrolink's startup, a few miles north of yesterday's incident, in which a cab car hit a municipal dump truck at a crossing. Darnedest thing is, it was the very same cab car involved in yesterday's collision -- 608. It derailed in that first one too.
Cab car 637 derailed after it hit a van on the San Bernardino line about two years ago. As the incident didn't involve fatalities, nobody on the train was injured, and it was at low speed (about 35 mph) it didn't really make the news. And cab car 626 was sitting at the Metrolink shop with the front end crunched, minus its front truck, about four years ago. Unknown what it did.
As for the cab level deck being cordoned off when the trains are in push mode, that IS standard operating procedure. Cab doors being left open isn't really with the intent of blocking any views -- the engineers want to be able to get the hell out of the cab quickly if anything happens so they leave the door open. (Cab cars 634-637 were built with full-width cabs and they'd still run with the cab-to-aisle door open when operating from that cab.)
Its probably because stuff gets wedged under the pilot of the cab car and due to its light weight it gets lifted off the rails.
Add to the list of cab-car situations...
11/92 Metrolink in San Fernando Valley vs. dump truck. Cab car derailed.
Guess what? It was the VERY SAME cab car that was involved in yesterday's wreck, 608!!!
11/92 Metrolink in San Fernando Valley vs. dump truck. Cab car derailed.
Guess what? It was the VERY SAME cab car that was involved in yesterday's wreck, 608!!!
Let's see if the third time's a charm.
It's damaged enough this time that it may not get rebuilt again.
Metrolink did have a few extra cab cars -- they were running some trains with 2 of them in consist.
I have seen that (2 control cars in one consist). That happens occasionally on Tri-Rail here in South Florida. Theoretically you would think you would only need one control car for every locomotive, but since you can't have a train w/out a contro car I guess the thinking is to have some spares, which can double as non-control trailers if need be.
I think the thought of having extra cab control cars on the property, over and above the amount of locomotives, is that the cab cars could possibly be troublesome -- or they foresaw that all too many of them would be involved in this sort of situation.
When Metrolink first began operations in 1992, they had F59's 851-869, and cab cars 601-633. Four additional engines followed right after service inception, so it was 23 locos, 33 cabs.
About the time the eight F59PHI's were delivered (874-881) they also got four more cab cars, so that narrowed the margin...31 locos, 37 cabs.
Then two more locos came (the former Marlboro Train F59PHI's, now 882-883....33 locos, 37 cabs.
Early 2002...four more brand new F59PHI's (884-887) delivered, making the numbers even. BUT -- cab car 634 was totalled in a wreck.
And now with 608 apparently wrecked beyond repair, it's two more engines than cab cars.
But I still see at least one trainset a day pass my house (twice) with two cab cars, so apparently they are okay for the time being.
If not, I did hear they bought a couple ex-Amtrak F40's to use as spares....maybe they ought to give thought about doing them into the powerless controluntis as Amtrak did with many.
The news anchor sounded like a real knuckle-dragger...
He does, after all, work for FOX.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
FOX, given their awareness of what they hire, actually provide skates for their reporter's knuckles so as to not distract the President while he's trying to pronounce "nucular." :)
And as long as they pump a little WD40 into the skates now and then, they work out fine.
:0)
Nah, WD40 is one of them NASA whizbangs created by socialist scientist types. FOX uses genuine Atlantic Richfield petroleum for them skates, "it's GOOD for your baby." :)
we are watching it live here ....just horrible .........
.......................
first internet report
BURBANK, Calif. - A Metrolink train carrying morning commuters smashed into a truck at a railroad crossing Monday, upending two passenger rail cars, killing a person and injuring 20.
The victim was in the truck, which burst into flames.
About 50 passengers were aboard train No. 210 from the Santa Clarita Valley to Los Angeles when the accident happened at about 9:30 a.m., authorities said.
The truck drove onto the tracks at a crossing where the gates were down and the signal lights were flashing, witness Greg Peale told KABC-TV. Investigators had no immediate comment.
In addition to the one fatality, 20 people were injured, said police Sgt. Craig Ratliff, who described the injured as "walking wounded."
Firefighters pulled some passengers from the wreckage and set up a triage area to treat the injured. Some passengers carried the injured from the upended cars before firefighters arrived. Passersby used a metal girder to smash the window of a door on one upended passenger car and helped other people to safety.
The train had four passenger cars and an engine at the rear. In that mode the train is operated by an engineer in a cab of the lead passenger car.
Burbank is about 10 miles northwest of Los Angeles.
It was the worst Metrolink accident since a commuter train was struck by a freight train April 23 in Placentia, killing two people and injuring more than 200.
Investigators believe that crash was caused when the crew of a Burlington Northern-Santa Fe freight train ran two warning signals before plowing into the double-decker Metrolink train. The freight engineer told police he was blinded by the sun and missed a crucial signal light.
Metrolink operates commuter trains over seven routes in six Southern California counties. It carries about 33,500 riders on 138 trains each weekday. The service began in 1992.
On the Net:
http://www.metrolinktrains.com
That's just sad and unfortunate the one person was killed, thank goodness no one else was killed.
you cannot beat a train they win every time
i do not know why this person allowed thier vehicle to be on the
tracks in the first place & especially with the gates down !!
As NJ Transit's billboard ads used to say: "Even if it's a tie, you lose."
As NJ Transit's billboard ads used to say: "Even if it's a tie, you lose."
There's one of those in Red Bank (or at least was right before Thanksgiving)... showed prominently in the background of an Asbury Park Press photo of a mangled minivan being loaded onto a flatbed after a distracted woman had turned onto the tracks from Route 35 rather than onto the adjacent Newman Springs Road. She got stuck but fortunately had gotten out of the van before it was hit. In the interview she and her husband blamed the railroad and the highway department for the "confusing, badly-designed intersection". They're suing, of course. Not that they're unfamiliar with the area, of course... they've lived less than a mile from that intersection for almost 30 years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In the US, there's no such thing as accepting personal responsibility for your own behavior. :-(
that is right !
operation lifesaver ?
>>> i do not know why this person allowed thier vehicle to be on the tracks in the first place & especially with the gates down <<<
Perhaps he mistook the flashing lights and bells for Xmas decorations. :-)
Tom
Not in this case. The deceased was the pickup driver who tried to beat the train.
-Hank
Nothing sad and unfortunate about the idiot who died in this one, he was the one who went around the crossing gates.
One less idiot in the gene pool.....but unfortunately, they probably already reproduced.
Tell that to his relatives and friends.
Peace,
ANDEE
Tell them what, that he was a total stupid ass to drive through working crossing protection?
Tell them what, that he was a total stupid ass to drive through working crossing protection?
Yes. Tell that to Tomasz Wysocki.
Same sob story that happened when a private jet crashed about 500 feet from my house about eight years ago. Everyone in the pilot's family came up with all sorts of stories about how great a pilot he was, how he never violated any flying rules, etc. etc. etc.
And then out came the published readouts from the tower at John Wayne Airport. The tower told this pilot to slow down no less than three times due to wake turbulence.
Then came the reports of the pilot's REAL safety record.....it was NOTHING like the family's praises. The piloot had MANY instances of failing to follow instructions from towers, to the point where his license was on the verge of suspension.
"Same sob story that happened when a private jet crashed about 500 feet from my house about eight years ago."
Do you know for a fact that the truck driver in this case has a bad safety record? Otherwise you are simply libeling him.
It's possible he had a bad safety record. It's also possible he had some kind of minor stroke that damaged his judgment.
I never stated that he had a bad safety record.
What I DID say was the family of the private jet pilot was praising him, and within a weekor so, his not-so-hot record was publicized.
Go back and read my post.
We are of course presuming his act of driving out staight in front of a train around lowered crossing gates when even a look both ways would have told him a train was on its way is idiocy. It could alternatively be suicide.
Seems simple to me. The RR ought to close the grade crossing with permanent barriers. If the city wants to get traffic to the other side of the tracks, they could jolly well build an overpass.
Elias
That seems to be the only way to protect morons from themselves.
It's a tragedy nonetheless - for the driver of the truck and the train engineer, who not only could not have saved the triuck driver's life, but has to put up with BS like the news anchor's tirade.
At least KABC got it right with that witness.
First lesson I learned about driving was Don't Race The Train. You figure a truck driver would have that down packed by now.
You'd think ... but we have an interesting new twist here ... the TRAIN lost, and derailed. Musta been one hell of a truck. Normally when you hit a truck, your only indication is that metal flies by the cab window. MAYBE you hear a slight crunch. Whatever that moron was driving put the train on its side. Granted, it was a Bombardier but STILL ...
We gotta find out what kinda truck it was that almost created a "draw" here ...
It was mentioned that push/pull cabs were more unsafe than the locomotive due to weight. That locomotive kept pushing that train, therefore physics takes over now. That must have been one heck of a truck. With the loco pushing the train into the truck, the coach had to go someplace. The truck most likely out-weighed the train coaches with the heavier loco pushing it, like making a train car sandwich.
That locomotive kept pushing that train, therefore physics takes over now.
But the same could be said if the locomotive was at the front of the train, although a locomotive is heavier than a cab-coach it is NOT heavier than the train it is pulling, (given any decent size train ~and certainly not one of the 112 car monsters that run past our house out here.)
Elias
I guess so ... what's particularly strange is that the train always wins, and in this case, it kinda lost. That, in and of itself is rather disturbing ...
Well the truck driver did NOT go home a winner, and that is for sure!
Elias
That part's a given. I'm just surprised that the train fell over. I'm not used to seeing that unless it hits an Abrams tank (or equivalent).
The train did win. No fatalities on the train. That's what really counts.
True, and I'm not making any bizarre claims, I'm just not used to hearing of trains going off the rails for pickup trucks. STEEL trucks carrying maximum load perhaps, but not TOY trucks ...
It was NOT a [pickup truck (i.e. F150, etc.) According to the news reports, it was a two-axle, flatbed truck with stake bed, kinda like the ones you see hauling machinery, etc. around. More of a heavy-duty "lorry" type.
just wanted to know if i was the only one here ??
a metrolink rider that is .....................??
also i took pictures in the burbank area near hollywood way
and the burgbank hilton hotel ( airport area ) .... sigh...
I was when I lived in Northridge
yea !!!!! ........................yea !
took this photo at the burbank station across the street from
fry's electronics near the burbank airport
this lead car # 616 was not involved in the accident the other day
this photo was taken in the same area on san fernando road etc..
Wonderful shot!
Thanks for posting it.
Mark
sure, thankz! little did i know what would happen next week ..
NICE shot! See? We're not just interested in NYC ... but you DO have to put it in our faces. :)
oh no i just want to broaden the on topic discussions to other states
and other countries as well
i did like the far east versions of the subway systems there !!
like in japan nice pictures too !!
oh no i just want to broaden the on topic discussions to other states
and other countries as well
i did like the far east versions of the subway systems there !!
like in japan nice pictures too !!
the other pcc car at the orange empire museum that MUNI wants ...
Nice shot...but if you were near Fry's Electronics, you were not at the Burbank station.
You were near the Burbank AIRPORT station -- two completely different places, 2.5 miles apart on the rails according to the Metrolink employee timetable.
WCBS 880 is reporting that New York City has been chosen to host the 2004 Republican Convention. Boston was chosen for the Democratic Convention recently.
Here in Boston, locals are talking about "abandoning ship" the week of the convention, with the stress and strain that will be on the transit system. For example, North Station is in the lower level of the Fleet Center, which on a good day can't handle the crowds. Word is that the Media Center will be built over the train shed, and that trains will be prohibited from pulling into the station. No word yet if they'll station at the outer end of the platforms to allow a (long) walk to the North Station lobby, or if they'll terminate on the other side of the Charles River bridge, necessitating temporary arrangements (workable ones that are hard to imagine!).
The Green Line may well be truncated by then due to the SuperStation construction, further reducing rapid transit throughput. Hopefully they'll run stub service to North Station Upper rather than stop everything at Government Center and use shuttle buses. (See MBTA SuperStation
Has anyone heard of the MTA's plan for NYC?
Would the convention be held at the Javits Center or Madison Square Garden? (I forget if the 1976 Democractic Convention was held at the Garden).
The 1992 Democratic Convention was held at Madison Square Garbage.
Madison Square Garden, the week of August 30, 2004.
While the Dems are going to Beantown for theirs, the Republicans are coming to New York. Do you NY Dems not think that is going to boost the city's economy a little? Hard for you to admit it but Bush was behind this and most of you are loath to give him credit for this. So I will.
We're HAPPY to give him credit for it ... STILL exploiting 9/11 whereas the dems have moved past that. Neener neener, snowbound and waiting for my dividend check. :)
do you smell that? I think it smells like BURRITTO'S! Stinkin frickin burrittocraps!!!!
I can tell the plow ain't been near YOUR street ... I just paid $950 for several payloaders and there's BARELY enough width for a Toyota out there. Trees down, pretty nasty. But we're saving on heating bills now that the snow is higher than the damned house. :)
Yeah, interesting times ahead, that's for sure. :(
To tell the truth,they just plowed my street ''TONITE''... they were kind enough to open the street up so now ''TWO'' cars can travel on it[SUV'S],but in doing this block that great favor... they PLOWED MY FRICKIN DRIVEWAY IN!!!!So I HAD TO COME HOME and dig out once again.Isn't that nice? I'm not bitchin',mind you.....but now it even worse than before... to walk the kids to school,catch the bus[still buried under 10 feet of snow=the bus stop] even stroll to the store!Man... I hate snow......
I keep telling our friends here that we'd be happy to have them back in a truck and take as much as they want ... hell, even throw in a few bambis at no extra charge. I hear it snowed a couple of inches the past couple of nights and it snowed again earlier. Must be me, keep looking at the ground and can't determine if it did or not there's so damned much of it there.
I'm ready to start speaking French. :)
went to the store around 10pm,and it was ...SNOWING... again....makes you want to pack up and move to the sunshine state!!!
Nah ... palmetto bugs, folks who can't drive OR VOTE, and the ghost of Anita Bryant. Elian! I'll take the snow. :(
they can wear glasses or or take lie detector tests......before and after.....and the kids better off anyway... who needs the headache? and its still sunny...and WARM!
Yeah, but none of them have Bruno to keep us all entertained and our tummies twirling. Hmmmm ... I'll split the bus fare. :)
Now, c'mon. You don't think the Oval Idiot really wants to come to this place he loves so much.
I would be happy to give credit where credit is due, so thank you, Karl Rove, for letting us poor Democrats nibble up some more of your measly crumbs. When you and all your wealthy corporate and individual backers deign to grace us with your lofty presence here in the Big Apple, we'll be sure to find some Sycophants to grovel at your feet. Most of our party leaders are getting comfortable in that role, so you should have no problem.
If you were out here in California you might be whistling a different tune. The Democrat Party has put us such a financial hole that retirees and people about to retire are planning on fleeing the state at first opportunity. We are 34.8 Billion in the hole, and that stupid mayor of San Fran, Willie Brown, is giving homeless bums and panhandlers $320.00 a month of our tax money. Our liberal judges have gutted most of our enforcement laws, and we face a massive tax increase because of this stupidity. 2006 and Arnold Schwarzennegger can't come fast enough for us.
Right On
It's about time we conservative republicans (read: westerners) had our say.
Jim Fish
Albuquerque, NM
Jimbo: Most of the West is Red (Republican). It is that coastal region from Washington to California where all the wierdos live, those than think a kangaroo rat and a spotted owl are more important than people. As Lincoln said, "You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time." Actually it was more than that but I shortened it. People will get wise in time.
RED states ... hmmm ... better RED than dead, eh? Sorry, but didn't get the color play by play until you just typed it ... here, we HAVE an excuse to be a BLUE state, WAY below freezing. So does this mean that to honor the GOP in 2004, we're going to have to do ANOTHER DAMNED "war between the states" color scheme where the subway cars will have to be painted blue and RED? Gack!
I *must* be getting old ... I remember a time, not so long ago, before SHRUB, that we were *ALL* Americans ... now some are more American than others, and that just plain sucks. I really hope the next two years, before "regime change" ain't going to be THAT ugly. :(
Don't mind me, just waiting for my dividend check.
Red and BLUE? No, it'll have to be just red:
nice pictures too bad you didn t have the worlds fair colors and red birds together
Aw c'mon ... how about mostly red with a blue stripe around the cars at knee height? Been done, ya know ...
those than think a kangaroo rat and a spotted owl are more important than people.
They are more important than people. There are 6 billion people in this world and a few hundred of those species. That lack of supply makes them inheriantly more valuable, not to mention the fact that once they are gone you can't bring them back.
That is what I have always suspected about you lefties. You do put birds, rodents, moths, and other species ahead of people. Real cute. Thank God most of us don't think that way. You wouldn't either Mr. Elitist if you were the human being that would be swindled.
when Senator John Edwards (D-NC) announced his intention to become a candidate for President in 2004 A leading Republican whose name escapes me said words to the effect that Edwards is not a Southerner, he is a Northeastern Liberal. I'm sorry, Fred but today's Republican party is NOT the party of Lincoln. Using liberal as an epithet and economic policies which only benefit a very small percentage of citizens, while denying that class warfare exists. America is deeply divided thanks to Republican politics. the Mellon backed, taxpayer funded $50 mil;lion dollar hate campaign against the Clintons certainly distracted Bill Clinton to the point that Bin Laden could have been stopped many months before 9/11, but wasn't and millions of Americans resent this. Around the world, bu$s is despised and of course with our industrial and technical capacity disappearing, there is NO WAY America will win a future war, particularly against China. bu$h is not MY president, he is a piece of trash. and the Republican Party WILL destroy America.
That's the way you feel? Well, you are entitled to your opinion. I happen to diagree. We ARE the party of Lincoln despie the fact some of us have gone astray. As for Bin Laden, Clinton had FOUR, count them FOUR chances to get him and didn't act on it. Can't blame us for that. And you make the typical liberal mistake is underestimating the greatest of America. If we get in a do or die war with anyone they will be buried completely. Still, good to hear from you. We can disagree without being disagreeable. Just ask my friend Bob.
Yes and we also backed Saddam in the 80s against Iran under the feeble minded actor whose name I will not name.
Conseratives are against any change,l unless it takes decades.
Dirty Polictics came about under the Reagan Campaign, so so did most of the homeless, when the Fed stopped money for Social Programs, thinking that Trickle Down Economics will get to the poor person.
The Republicans had 2 great Presidents, Lincon and Teddy Roosevelt, ant this is not their Party.
Conseratives are against any change,l unless it takes decades.
RIGHT! That is what conservative means, to Conserve, to keep the same.
The Republicans had 2 great Presidents, Lincon and Teddy Roosevelt, ant this is not their Party.
The Republicans and Democrats have completely shifted their stances since. If they were alive and active in politics today, they would be Democrats.
Fred I am not going to say anything, but get off the polotics, this is the wrong forum. Why doesn t Pres george send his alcholic caughters and his doper niece in Florida into the Army to get their asses straight?
Well Mr. Southerner, I don't know the answer to that question. Maybe if your secret crush Hillary sent her daughter in Georgie would do his part. Hillary's girl would fit right in because I've heard she can really belt them down and raise hell. The apple doesn't fall very far from the tree in this case. BTW Virginian, your sheets are ready.
Yeh, maybe she does, but she has never been busted for drunk, underage drinking or drugs.
The National Mandatory Drinking Age Act of 1984 is an unjust law, anybody who breaks it has committed no real crime.
What can bu$h do about Noelle, as for Barbara and Jenna, they are being dried out as we speak.
At least Chelsea hasn't done any jail time. :)
They are all only guilty of breaking unjust laws.
Hell, what they did is PATRIOTIC.
Our liberal judges have gutted most of our enforcement laws
Enforcement of what? Many laws cost society more than they save it.
Your plane for Pyongyang leaves at midnight. Be on it. Or you can exchange tickets and go to Havana instead. I wonder why your socialist friends can't even feed their people while their economies are a shambles. Great system, eh?
If you actually knew anything about North Korea and Cuba you'd know that someone who advocates for fewer laws would never choose those places over the United States.
You should also look up "socialism" while you're at it.
It'll be 'wheather and music together.' Hope to catch you more often on the morning run to 239th YAHD. CI Peter
I don't recall that MTA made any transit changes for the 1996 Democratic convention.
If there are any plans for the Republican convention, they'll involve taxis, tour buses and limos, not subways.
As I said, the only way the Second Avenue gets built is if we are ready to go to bid, and apply for funding, before the 2004 elections. Maybe the Republicans will want something good to announce in New York. Having the subway be profitable at the time wouldn't hurt either.
I'm sure the hangers-on for a Republican convention are as likely to use public transportation as Democrats. By then, the combination of scratchitti and deferred maintenance should make it just about impossible for an out-of-towner to get off at the right station. Is it too much to hope that a Republican or two might get a soft spot in its heart for support for transit?
I don't recall that MTA made any transit changes for the 1996 Democratic convention.
Not many people use the New York transit system to go to the United Center in Chicago.
Which is on Madison Street, not Madison Avenue.
And you can bet the Big Selling Point about Boston and the Fleet Center was Excellent Transit Available, which this plan seems to negate. The Old Bait and Switch!
The Democrat Party got Boston, the Republican Party got New York. Just like the past election the GOP got the much better of the deal.
Given the differences between pre-9/11 and post-9/11 security concerns, and plans to build the overpass between the Garden and the Farley Post Office, which will serve as the media and event center, woe to any A/C/E passengers who plan to use Penn Station between about Aug. 15 and Sept. 5 of 2004, let alone Amtrak passengers entering/leaving the station right below MSG.
You think getting on a plane is a pain right now? Wait until the luggage checks in Penn Station begin, and it wouldn't surprise me if the Penn Station-33rd St. entrance to the Eighth Ave. subway is closed completely during the convention, leaving only the 34th St. entrance opened in order to better facilitate security checkpoints in the area (and this would be true whether or not it was a Republican or a Democratic convention, boys and girls). Or, the MTA could shut 34th St. completely, leaving passengers the option of getting off at either 42nd or 23rd Street and walking to the Penn Station area.
The IRT exit at 33rd and 7th might be spared from the same type of closure, because it's still a good 100 yards away from the Garden, but the LIRR concourse will undoutably have the same tough security in place during the convention time, and the 32nd St. exit on the 1/9 downtown platform could be closed off.
I laughingly thought “Shut down Penn Station for the duration!” Think aboutit: are they going to have luggage checks for people getting off the trains?
Seriously, if they want to have a chance at real security, why not put everyone in Javits? There’s plenty of space for a main conference hall, caucus rooms, and press facilities. Bus (/limo) ’em in, so that the rest of us can still get to work…
John
Javits is just too small -- not so much for the delegates, but for the media that all wants to be in the big room as well. The Garden's problem isn't so much is main room floor space, but its side room space availability for the print media (the networks all get their own skybox locations) and other gatherings (read big money donors, press and lobbyists). That's why the Farley Building option was created, which will undoutably mean Eighth Ave. is going to be a mess for at least a year before the convention while they build the overpass, knock a hole in the northwest side of the Garden at logue level and redo the inside of the post office building.
As for the incoming Amtrak passengers, security may end up doing baggage checks at Newark and Bridgeport before the trains are even allowed into Penn Station (LIRR trains might get checks of their own coming out of Woodside or Jamaica, just in case some Collin Ferguson wanna-be decides to make a statement just after the 6:48 from Babylon arrives at Track 17...)
There is funny Op-Ed article in the NY Times today (free subscription required). I loved the opening:
It’s sort of good news that the Republican Convention is coming to New York in 2004. It’s nice to see support from the Red country for the Blue city. It’s a pity, though, that we will have to fork over some $50 million to defray G.O.P. expenses. I hope predictions based on Philadelphia's experience in 2000 will prove true and the event will bring in three times that amount, helping revive our battered tourist trade.
But if Philadelphia is to be our model, we shouldn’t count on a riveting event. That was a tightly scripted affair about “compassion,” featuring people of color performing for a snowy white audience of delegates. Maybe next year the theme will be updated from race to class, with a stageful of the unemployed and uninsured singing the virtues of tax cuts.
LOL!
John
"We'd sing y'all the last verse, about the look on Junior's face when he sees his whole dividend check show up untaxed in the mail, but we gotta get home now -- the subways stop at ten."
Ok guys, do you think the M needs service improvements like increased service, I certainly think so. I think it should be moved back to the Brighton line and should be extended to Manhattan on weekends.
What do you guys think about this subject do you think the M is misuesd and could use improvements?
The M line is underused on the West End, and it needs to come back where it belong before 4/27/86, the Brighton Local. There are a LOT of customers who exit the Q trains at Dekalb Ave, the 4 and 5 lines are overcrowded during rush hours. Perhaps if the M line had more frequent service during rush hour (currently 9-10 minute headways) and NYCT promote this line as a viable alternative to the IRT lines, it may get somewhere.
I'm looking foward to the retuen of M Brighton service when Stillwell is 3/4 complete in 2004.
The Q is really booming and the Brighton local could use the extra service on weekdays. I don't know if the M will come back to the Brighton in 2004, or in the future but right now it is really underused and people crowd onto the W so moving it there "temporarily" wasn't the best of ideas and you know what happens when you temporarily move lines in this system. Come 2004, it would be cool if the M comes back here and the W could get remain as the 2nd line to run via West End.
Come 2004, it would be cool if the M comes back here and the W could get remain as the 2nd line to run via West End.
(W) is a FULL-TIME service that runs 24/7. It is the PRIMARY line on the West End
(B) is a PART-TIME service, it should be the SECONDARY line on the West End and as such it *could* run EXPRESS on West End and it would terminate at Bay Parkway.
The (M) has no business on the West End. It could run EXPRESS to 95th Street, or it may terminate at 9th Avenue (lower Level) or it could go back to the Brighton Line, or all Williamsburg Bridge Trains could terminate in Manhattan without cluttering up south Brooklyn.
Elias
I think its about time the West End has a regular peak express service for the first time since the 1960's. Here's what I would do assuming the M moves back to the Brighton:
(B)West End express, 4 Av express, 6 Av express, CPW local:
Rush-Runs from Stillwell Av to Bedford Park Blvd Rush hours via West End express in the peak direction.
Middays & evenings-Runs from Stillwell Av to 145 St
Weekends-Same
Late nights-Runs as the West End shuttle from Stillwell Av to Pacific St via 4 Av express
(M)Brighton local, Nassau St local, Broadway el local:
Rush-Runs from Metro Av to Brighton Beach or Coney Island
Middays & evenings-Same[runs until 10PM via Brighton]
Weekends-Runs from Metro Av to Chambers St
Late nights- Runs from Metro Av to Myrtle Av
(W)West End local, 4 Av express, Broadway local:
Rush-Runs from Stillwell Av to Ditmars Blvd/Astoria
Middays & evenings-Runs from Whitehall St to Ditmars Blvd/Astoria
Weekends-Same
Late nights-does not run
As you see, the B would go back to being the priamry line via West End, the W is the secondary & is kept as a Broadway local and the N would be allowed to run express in Manhattan assuming it runs via bridge again. Also, N's could be the full time express except nights since it is likely Q trains would run on weekdays only.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
Could we find a way to run through service Weekends during the day from Chambers St to Montague tunnel, using the "M" service?
wayne
As a regular rider of the M train in the past it was always frustrating to have to get off at Myrtle to transfer to the J on the weekends, but I don't really know if it is necessary to have the M run with the J past Myrtle all weekend. I do feel they should extend the J to at least Broad Street on the Weekends however. The loss of the Fulton Street transfer for Nassau riders is a reall pain. Traveling from the J to either the 8th Ave line or the West Side Line has many extra steps without that transfer easily available.
It benefits those who change for the 4, 5 & 6 at Chambers St for the Brooklyn Bridge station. I'm 50/50 on whether the M should run to Manhattan on weekends but I think it should, the shuttle for all day weekends is a pain and when you miss the J, forget about it.
I think its about time the West End has a regular peak express service for the first time since the 1960's. Here's what I would do assuming the M moves back to the Brighton:
The West End line has never had regular express service. The T and TT were distinguished by whether they ran local or express along 4th Avenue. Both trains were local on West End.
The West End line has never had regular express service. The T and TT were distinguished by whether they ran local or express along 4th Avenue.
This may be true, but it is not *that* true.
According to my 1967 map (one of my favorite maps!) it *does* show express service on the West End. But then of course, it also shows that *all* of the stops *are* express stops!
: ) JTYWLTK Elias
(B) Cannot be the primary service on the West End, because it is not a 24/7 line. You gotta remember that lines have TWO ENDS! Why would anybody want the (B) and the (D) to run all night long to the Bronx!? They wouldn't, ergo the (B) cannot be anybody's primary service.
OTH Astoria needs service 24/7 and so does the West End. ergo the (W) is that service. That makes the (W) local in Brooklyn and the (B) express when running.
The opposite is true then on the Brighton:
The (D) is 24/7 service Bronx to Coney Island, and is LOCAL in Brooklyn, while the (Q) is not a 24/7 service is not needed anywhere at night, and is the EXPRESS service on the Brighton line, running to Brighton Beach.
So Both Broadway and 6th Avenue have a 24/7 line over the bridge to granmother's house, and each has a daytimer that runs express in Brooklyn.
Problem is with you YOUNG WHIPPERSNAPERS that you think that the 6th Ave Like is King Cow Pie in Brooklyn when in fact it is not, that Brooklyn *is* BMT Territory!
Elias
OTH Astoria needs service 24/7 and so does the West End.
It does not. West End night service has been a shuttle since 1977 and before that from 1959-68. The current situation is awkward and is a function of the Stillwell closure. In 2004, there will be no need to continue this pattern.
It does not. West End night service has been a shuttle since 1977 and before that from 1959-68.
A Shuttle *is* a service, ergo the line runs 24/7.
And what of Astoria? it also needs service 24/7.
What are we to have, a bunch of isolated shuttles at night, when clearly the Manhattan trunks *could* have service every 10 minutes instead of every 20 ninutes. 20 or 30 minutes is ok out in the sticks, but the big time needs more.
Elias
Astoria does need 24 hour service but it DOESN'T have to be via the West End, it could and would most likely be via the Sea Beach line.
>>"(B) Cannot be the primary service on the West End, because it is not a 24/7 line. You gotta remember that lines have TWO ENDS! Why would anybody want the (B) and the (D) to run all night long to the Bronx!? They wouldn't, ergo the (B) cannot be anybody's primary service."<<
I >NEVER< said that the B go to the Bronx in the nights, I said the B would go to the Bronx rush hours, other times to 145 St [which is IN Manhattan] then in the late evenings and late nights the B goes to Pacific St and what replaces the D in the Bronx late nights of you provide no service there? Why can't the B be the primary West End service, it has been for over 30 years before the 3rd Manny-B project started on 7/22/01.
>>"Problem is with you YOUNG WHIPPERSNAPERS that you think that the 6th Ave Like is King Cow Pie in Brooklyn when in fact it is not, that Brooklyn *is* BMT Territory!"<<
No, I am NOT treating the 6 Av line like royalty! I'm just coming up with plans that could work if they were to be implemented.
Why can't the B be the primary West End service, it has been for over 30 years before the 3rd Manny-B project started on 7/22/01.
The (B) NEVER went there until some knuckelhead put the IND on the bridge!
: ) Elias
Before, when the B did run on the West End, it terminated at 36th Street when it didn't go through to Manhattan. In 2004, I'm sure the West End will once again become a shuttle to 36th when the full route isn't running nights. The only the West End is a through service all times is because of the Stillwell reconstruction, and it's the only service right now there. It would be stupid to make the only service not a through service, so that is why the West End lucks out for a while.
Why can't the B and Q be the full-time services?
They *can* be full time services, if you want to shut the (D) down at night since 6th Avenue (and Grand Concourse) doesn't need two services. Run the (Q) at night and shut off the (W), yeah, no problem. I thought my suggestion was less confusing.
Elias
I don't see why. I'd have the B as the full-time Concourse local, with the D filling in as the express when express service runs. For some reason lots of people seem to be opposed to that naming scheme, but it seems very simple to me.
Trashing the D in the Bronx would be like renaming the Sea Beach the Hillary train. It's just something you wouldn't want to do with people listening. The IND may be a Johnny come lately in many people's eyes, but the A train and the D train are of tremendous historical importance up north. The B train going to the Bronx also is an anachronism - IND riders from the north end of the city always had access to one 8th avenue line and one 6th avenue line during peak hours. Somehow there was no coverage of the riots when this occurred, but guaranteed there'd be mayhem if the D train was scrood with. *I* would come down and fling bricks personally. :)
See? I don't get it. I'm not suggesting that any actual service pattern in the Bronx be changed. All I'm suggesting is that, when the express isn't running, the local be labeled B, just as it's labeled when the express is running. The current pattern, with the D sometimes local and sometimes express, is unnecessarily confusing. (I agree, it would be nice if the C were to return to the Bronx, but that's not happening any time soon.)
"The current pattern, with the D sometimes local and sometimes express, is unnecessarily confusing. (I agree, it would be nice if the C were to return to the Bronx, but that's not happening any time soon.)"
The Concourse line is like the Flushing Line - three tracks, with express service running in the peak direction only.
Prior to the Manny B's reopening in 2004, changing the B train to a circle-D, while making the D-express into a Diamond D might work (analogous to the diamond-6 or diamond-7). When the four-track Manny B service begins, that would work optimally only if the B and D then take the same path together to Coney Island.
>>"Prior to the Manny B's reopening in 2004, changing the B train to a circle-D, while making the D-express into a Diamond D might work (analogous to the diamond-6 or diamond-7). When the four-track Manny B service begins, that would work optimally only if the B and D then take the same path together to Coney Island."<<
Its pretty stupid that they don't have or use a during when the Concourse express runs while it is on The Map. However from what you're saying the B would not go to the Bronx. Simply put all D's in the diamond roll sign for whenever the B runs to BPB and since the D is express in Manhattan, it works out see there's the compromise :-).
Well ... first off, I ignore all "how to route the subway" threads, just not my thing. But in defense of the "D train" it's one thing you don't want to scroo with at least in the Bronx. Folks along the Concourse expect to find a D train, they expect it to run local during off peak and express during peak with something else doing the local stops (to me, that was ALWAYS the CC) ...
But then again, I don't live there anymore, so clearly I don't really much care about this either. But I CAN tell you that CULTURALLY, you'll be making a LOT of people who do use it grumpy by suggesting the death of one of those important cultural monoliths. For all the "mix and match, it's fun to do, what Barbie rides is up to you" extravaganzas of the TA over all these years, the D train is one thing even Ronan knew not to screw with.
But in the end, I ain't Fred ... just wanted to make folks aware of how the D train is regarded by Bronx residents. It's an INSTITUTION. You'd have less resistance if the Brighton was shut down.
There would be a lot of HELL to pay if the Brighton Line was ever shut down, it's the most heavily traveled BMT line in all of Brooklyn.
If the Brighton line ever shut down, there would be a RIOT! That would take away a lot from the system, we have some of the most convenient transfer points in the whole system.
Agreed ... after all, to those of us from the Bronx, the D train WAS the Brighton. But my point in the comparison there is that the D train (signed as a D) is every bit as important on the north end as the Q is on the south end. I really don't care one way or the other in all reality. But many DO ... it'd be like making the N train the Brighton Express and sending the Q down to Unca Fred's house. :)
True, the D IS the Brighton and having the D running part time[as some people suggested here], lets see NO! It has been the full time Brighton line for many years and changing that WOULD make a difference. People are used to having the D at 205 full time and the B definitely DOES NOT have higher ridership than the D and the line with the higher ridership should be full time.
>>"But many DO ... it'd be like making the N train the Brighton Express and sending the Q down to Unca Fred's house. :)"<<
That would be like the Twilight Zone(no pun intended) ;-). That would be some of the weirdest routes in the system.
Well, I'm stepping off ... this is MY stop. But I stay out of these discussions for the same reason that most TA employees do - no matter WHAT you do, someone's not only going to be honked off at the choices, but will also claim a conspiracy. Actually, aside from car class and who shops them being a higher priority than where things would best be served, the TA has done a fairly good job of shuffling lines and routes for about as decent a degree of efficiency possible. I do think that the old northern IND assignments made more sense for the GEESE (Wash Heights and Concourse having two trains, one on 6th and one on 8th) made it easier to have a "one seat ride" no matter where you're going) ... but some of the other decisions (particularly killing the GG to Forest Hills) was downright dumb. But hey ... whatever they do, I really don't care. Didn't when I worked there. I got paid no matter what lineup I was given. :)
"...but some of the other decisions (particularly killing the GG to Forest Hills) was downright dumb."
That decision was to make V Train/B47 bus happy.
OOooooo ... you're gonna get it NOW. :)
LOL...
You ARE gonna hear it, IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
Whoo, now you've really done it ;-).
particularly killing the GG to Forest Hills
The G was useless to Queens Boulevard passengers and took up space. The V provides local passengers with additional service to Manhattan. While crybabies from Hillside might be "inconvenienced by the F no longer connecting to the 6, passengers at the local stations have NO disadvantages.
Heh. Like I said, I normally stay out of these threads (now we've got the "proff" as to why) ... but let's be real here - for fear of losing federal funding, the MTA finished a tunnel to nowhere that was originally envisioned for a new service and had nowhere to stick it. So they stuck it to the Queensborough line instead of a new route to go with the new tunnel.
I took a look at what they did to the interlockings at Queens and I'd bet soup to nuts that the reason why the G had to go byebye had nothing to do with "improving service" but rather than Rube Goldberg designed the interlocking, resulting in a "chinese firedrill" of trains ... but I'm personally ambivalent either way, I don't live in Queens and NO train stops where I live. Unless it hits a bus. :)
The 63rd Street tunnel was always intended to connect to the Queens Boulevard line to replace the useless G. The Queens Boulevard bypass was only to be used by lower Second Avenue trains.
The 63rd street tunnel was built to ease conjestion on the QB Lines by diverting them away from it, via an alturnate route to/from the Central business district. The proposed connection to the QB line was in Forest Hills to a station under the present Continental ave stop. The Second ave/Queens routing was more or less for the South Jamaica line to Springfield blvd[todays Archer ave subway].So in one respect,you are right,but the Queens Superexpress was not planed for Second ave train service only. It was only latter when the MTA ''discovered'' that due to a shortage of funds[HA!]THEY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO COMPLETE THE ROUTE AS INTENDED, and chose to scrape the whole project.The FEDS and the State stepped in and told them'' if you dont FINISH AND OPEN,ALL FUNDING WILL END and you will PAY US BACK EVERY CENT of the money WE GAVE YOU for the projects''.That came out of then President REAGAN'S mouth. With their back up agaist the wall,they built what we have today,over 1 billion dollars on 3 miles of tunnel... no wonder we are the laughing stock of other cities.....
As I've said before: The 63rd Street line was always planned to connect to the Queens Boulevard line, AND the bypass.
All of you people are coming up with the stupidest arguments against this.
Nobody cares what the train is signed, in fact, signing it the B at all times would be less confusing. The purpose of the subway is to provide SERVICE, not railfan fantasies.
And the MTA doesn't care if there's somebody out there with a hard-on for the D, they'll route service however is best for riders who don't leave a puddle of drool on the floor.
Thet TA does consider people's line letter sentiments. If not, then the A would have become a local, and the Q would be the Washington Heights express.
But that also would have made the Q a permanent 6th Avenue line. Now who would want that? What would have taken the Q's place on Broadway when the south side of the tracks were to reopen? Would Broadway have stayed with just the N and the R (that would have sucked!)? Maybe that might have been why the TA didn't do that plan.
In that plan, the B was 21st St. only, so when the bridge flipped, and the 63rd St. connection opened, the B would have been cut out of 6th Av. and fixed to the southern end, instead of relabeled "W", and perhaps they would have kept both split D and Q (instead of B and D as before), or perhaps the Brighton would have wound up with a circle and diamond "W" instead of Q. In any case, I'm sure glad they didn't do that. Imagine B completely on BMT, and Q completely on IND.
The revised plan was to move the A to 6th Ave. and Brighton express. What would they have done then? (probably the same --two W's, but imagine if they instead had a split "A" on 6th Av. AND Broadway!)
I've read a lot of remarks about this proposed service plan but I don't think I've ever seen all the gory details. If you have them, would you be so kind as to post them? Thanks.
WHOA! An A with a yellow bullet, that's scary! That's rather confusing and complex and I'm glad they didn't do neither of those plans.
yeah,I heard about that plan also some years ago,but not to the full extent... if you will... please send me via email [or post it on the board] the details regarding the ''A/Q'' switch....
yeah,I heard about that plan also some years ago,but not to the full extent... if you will... please send me via email [or post it on the board] the details regarding the ''A/Q'' switch....
This seemed to have been inspired by the asbestos flood of 1989 (what I found when I got off the bus from a long trip from California in the Air Force).
207-Brighton Beach weekdays, and probably 2nd Av. other times.
all local from 168 to Queens.
34th St.-Queens, express.
21st St.-Coney Island, all times exc. nights.
Local service only in Bronx.
Completely eliminated
When people complained of the legendary "A" becoming a local and cut out of upper Washington Heights, then they renamed the with an orange A (included on the R-110B, and Brighton routings included on R-44/46 side signs) I do not know what they called the local to 168th, as I did not see the whole plan for the revision, and also did not know what evening & weekend service would have been like.
But then taking the A off of 6th Av. still drew took away the legend, so people still didn't like it, and the whole idea was scrapped.
Thanks.
I don't think it was the renaming or moving of the A train that doomed this proposal -- I think it was the fact that it's a major service cut. No Concourse express? No direct express service between CPW and 8th Avenue? Only two 8th Avenue services at 42nd? I don't see the point, unless the point was to cut service.
I don't see the point, unless the point was to cut service.
It was a serious plan to cut service. I don't remember exactly when, but I believe it was the early 90's. I remember all the news channels had "Take the A train" playing in the backround, talking about how they wanted to take the "famous A train" and turn it into a local, and cut it back. At that time they also wanted to cut night service on many lines, which of course caused a MAJOR outcry, with good reason.
I think the issue was solved with a fare hike, but that may be around the time they got some lines cut back (like the J on weekends to Canal, and the Lenox line, etc) Not sure if that happened then (I think so), but basically the rest of their plan was dead on arrival.
But funny,what I forgot to mention was that at the same time is when they also proposed / skip stop (an increase)
Kinda like when I was a kid and the D WAS the Culver.
Was really strange when the D first went to the Brighton and the F came to the Culver.
That's because lines change route when the TA sees a need for it. Don't forget, the R/RR ran to Astoria for many years, but that changed in 1987.
"That's because lines change route when the TA sees a need for it. Don't forget, the R/RR ran to Astoria for many years, but that changed in 1987. "
Did you ever notice before the change...
N represents the 14th letter of the alphabet
each G represents 7... and it was at the time.. GG total 14.
The N was gold, and the GG was light green... It just seem like they belong together on Queens Blvd.. Like a husband and wife team.
The R is just so out of place, because it's another female.. well....
N Broadway Line
Well it was done to give the R direct yard access to Jamaica. It does look a little out of place but its working and that's what matters.
AMEN, tank yew.
BTW, why do the JETS insist on being refered to as a disease? IE:gangerne.
Peace,
andee
Because they're in Joisey? I dunno ... one of the reasons why I ended up marrying a railfan is because I ain't into sports. Go figger. I know that the Buffalo Bills are New York's ONLY football team, but I don't care about them either. :)
True...IDK, GANGRENE, that's a pretty bad disease.
Peace,
ANDEE
Gangrene isn't a disease, it's a condition.
Yeah, losing FOUR Super Bowls in a row that's a heartbreaker for you guys Upstate :-\.
Heh. No sweat off my back. While everybody's out on the couch watching the passing of the pigskin, I'm getting some. Whoops. :)
Maybe it's from they years they played horribly? (There were certainly many times that was a fitting nickname!)
But yeah, why are the Jets green and the Giants "Big Blue"? Shouldn't it be the green Giants and Blue Jets?
I have an affection to calling different routes by their known names. While I agree completely with your D concept, I feel "a 'J' by anyother name is still a 'J'". But I understand completely. We have been fairly stable in the subway system since the letters came to the BMT. I think the West End has "suffered" the most letter changes. T to B to W (probably back to B again). Imagine the 7 line without the 7. Many of the letters/numbers have become institutions in the subway. Imagine someone having to change the words to Duke Ellington's Harlem song:
IF YOU TAKE THE F TRAIN...........
However, all nostalgia aside. If a D has to become a B, or a M (gulp) has to become a V, or whatever, as long as it gets you from point A to point B, "a '1' by any other name is still a '1'".....oh wait a minute, those are 9's....there's got to be some logical reason for the 9 to exist....
I actually LIKED the "TT" when it ran. Stupid TA decided to trash the double letters and look what they've done to themselves NOW. Heh. The REASON why there ain't no second avenue subway is that they've painted themselves into a damned corner. Nobody wants to "Take a P against the wall" and the "U train is for someone else" ...
Mind ya, I don't much care WHAT they do, none of the lines run through Voorheesville, so whatever train goes where won't run through here. But folks on the north end of the system are used to certain things and taking away either the A or the D is grounds for small arms fire and grenades. :)
Who the hell would want a train called the P :-\? I think dropping double letters was just plain stupid and may have to come back in the future assuming we go through a expansion of the system & probably would have to go through double digit numbers too.
Imagine the 6 train terminal ever changes to lets say the 16 train, just crazy but funny :0). Making the B the full time Concourse line and taking the beloved D away converting it to a part time line, the passengers would go on strike ;-).
Oh no, Bronx residents would just break out their trusty Louisville Slugger and go visit Jay St or wherever the wiglets are camped out this fiscal year. And we'd FIND 'em. And as to the mighty P train, I'm sure whatever they do, it'll run on the Sea Beach. Just to irk Unca Fred. =)
And hey, there's STILL Cyrillic and Greek letters available. I'm just grateful NYC hasn't gone to dumb colors for line names. With so many lines, I can see the confusion brought about by "take the forest green, change for the fuschia at 14 street, then take the Puce to Howard Beach, change there for the eggshell" ... heh.
And hey, there's STILL Cyrillic and Greek letters available.
Can you imagine explaining to someone what a lambda (©) or a xi (¬) looked like, let alone a ya („`) or an i-kratkoe („J)?
You wouldn't have lasted a femtosecond as a platform conductor. The secret is to POINT AND MUMBLE ... then act as if the "customer" dissolved into another dimension of space and time as though they'd dematerialized. All part of school car, me boy. :)
How about French accent letters?
Actually, Kanji and Cantonese oughta keep even subtalkers in a steady supply of route markings. :)
I dunno, I kinda like the "Omega train".
My sadistic side has a Cyrillic "yo" train running with the E train except doing strange things in Manhattan to see how many tourists wouldn't spot the difference ;-)
Also, for our dyslexic customers, we would have the N train, running alongside a cyrillic "EE" train, then an "EEE" train.
>>>>...Bronx residents would just break out their trusty Louisville Slugger...<<<<
TRUE, me included.
A Resident of Bedford Park for the past 22 years.
Peace,
ANDEE
Heh. For me, it was 204th and Webster as well as Kingsbridge and Sedgewick. Always got a kick out of people whipping out a knife and then running like hell when the trusty old bat came out to play. Every store owner believed in the power of a baseball bat. And so did girls.
"Fency-pansed-gengsters" ...
We made a pretty good reputation for ourselves though - "Go to the Bronx and get killed" was on way too many lips. Heh. If only they knew. Nah ...
Ha, Greek letters now that's interesting. Imagine they came out with some colors like this --> taking the pink to the baby blue then you have to jog to catch the neon orange and all of these funny colors :0).
No coke, pepsi ... :)
The last time I heard Bronx riders complaining is when the TA was threatening to take their 68's from them.. (Giving them to a useless line like the G) They really LOVE those trains because they are quiet, and run very smoothly...
Also, Brighton Line riders did not like the idea of loosing the 68's to the B line... If you remember, the 68's were first seen on the Q's before the B line... The B took the slanted 40's from the A line.. To me... that was a disaster.. I was always a fan of the R40's.. although they tend to be the loudest of all the cars.. and they tend to rock more... But they have always been the fast.. and to me.. speed is more important than comfort.
My point is... these riders you are speaking of wouldn't really matter if the sign change...But if you change their car series.. you will be asking for trouble
N Broadway Line
I know I hated it when the Q lost the R68/R68A's to the B, they said it was done to make B's run more on time, RIGHT! Oh well I like the 40's now [I wish a occasional 68 shows up on the ]. Hey two MAJOR advantages of the 40's is in the summer, excellent A/C and the railfan window :-).
I felt the same way! The "Q" used those 68's much better.. They appeared to be faster when they used them.. But you're right, the 40's aren't that bad.. IN OUR EYES!!! hahaa...
N Bwy Line
Who the hell would want a train called the P :-\? I think dropping double letters was just plain stupid and may have to come back in the future assuming we go through a expansion of the system & probably would have to go through double digit numbers too.
Double letters were completely unnecessary. With the exception of the AA, all double letters had no single-letter counterpart. The system was meaningless by then.
Why would they? Concourse riders lost direct access to the 8th Avenue line in 1998 and it hasn't been brought back, has it? What is so beloved about the D that it can't be a part-time service?
I didn't think they should of moved the C from the Bronx either but it was done to unify rolling stock. And they wanted let the orange lines run together north of 145 St and the blue line run together north of 145 St[I threw this statement in just for "fun"]. People are used to having the D as a full time train and I fell any train that served one particular terminal for a long time should be left as is, just my opinion.
"Why would they? Concourse riders lost direct access to the 8th Avenue line in 1998 and it hasn't been brought back, has it? What is so beloved about the D that it can't be a part-time service?"
The 8 car "C" couldn't handle it... one reason, it wasn't given the type of service that it deserve.
N bwy
If they run out of letters.. they could just give the IRT the letters.. and the IND/BMT the numbers... since there's much more routes serving these two systems.
N Broadway Line
14 Broadway Line
That'll be the day!
"This is a Manhattan-bound B local train. The next stop is St. Lawrence Avenue."
Haa! Thatr would be some weird & funny stuff, imagine hearing a announcement like this --> "Van Siclen Av, the next and last stop on this 'D' train is New Lots Av stand clear of the closing doors" *DING DONG*
Sorry, that doesn't cut it. If the TA decides, for whatever reason, that it makes more sense to run a full-time Concourse-West End service than a full-time Concourse-Brighton service, then the full-time Concourse local will be called the B. One side result is a more consistent and predictable service pattern in the Bronx. Currently, passengers trying to get to local stations have to look at their watches to figure out if they should get on the B (since the D is running express) or the D (since the B isn't running). If the B were the full-time local, they'd just get on the B and ignore any D's that happen to show up.
Actually, as I just posted in a new thread - this may all become irrelevant. If it's after 10PM, there could well be NO train, and folks would have to hoof it or find a cab. Not that it's terribly relevant as you suggest anyway. But like Unca Fred and his damned N train, the D train was always a sacred cow in *my* book. But it really doesn't matter much. I'm gonna sit back and wait for my MTA dividend check instead. :)
At least the D comes.. (although it could be pretty creepy in the tunnel at times)...
N Bwy
If you think that this is really going to happen, I have a bridge to sell you.
And it is for sale! Financial crisis and all.
Of COURSE it ain't gonna happen - I'm just amazed that it was actually CONSIDERED ... scares me, it does ...
Unless you plan on changing the B/D express/local service pattern in Manhattan then it is a bad idea, the D is a Manhattan express and needs to run on the Bronx, while the B has to make all those stops on CPW making the route even longer(like the #2), unless the B is a CPW express it won't help, plus people would be mad because you took away their DIRECT CPW Express service and gave them LOCAL service(look at the beginning of the (V)). Plus there are LOCAL and EXPRESS platforms and if someone sees a B in the Bronx they would know that the (D) is going to be running express soon if not already. Plus all they have to do is wait at the LOCAL platform for a local train regardless of what train it is. The (2), (4), and (5) have different express local variations at certain times of the day, do you have a problem with that as well? people will get confused regardless of what you do.
If the B/D get r-143 trains this can be taken care of with the BRONX EXPRESS signage.
What riots? I didn't hear of any riots when the B and C were flipped in March of 1998 and I live in the Bronx. I really don't see how it will be a problem if the B went to 24/7 operation and the D went to weekday operation when they are restored in Brooklyn. Why does the D have to be full-time? Just because "that's the way it's always been" doesn't mean it has to stay that way. The post-2004 D will share nearly all of its route with at least one other train. It will share Concourse with the B, the CPW Express with the A, the 6th Avenue Express again with the B and Brighton with the Q. Does CPW need to have two expresses on weekends? Is there a reason the Q can't run local and 24/7 on the Brighton line?
S'pose not ... that IS the way it used to be but I guess you're right. Onec upon a time though, it DID matter.
"What riots? I didn't hear of any riots when the B and C were flipped in March of 1998 and I live in the Bronx"
I don't live in the bronx, but I think people were actually happy about the switch..
The C never really did well up there... It was always being delayed for some reason.. I gathered it was because it only use 8 cars and was schedule less frequently than most subway lines.. Including the B..
And, if you all notice, the C always got the dumpy cars.. Probably the worse cars in the entire system.. including the J, L,M and later Z lines...
Those R10's were really slow.. and terribly loud... It wasn't until they switch the C line to the R30's that people started to appreciate it more.. But still, that did not compare to the slanted 40.. (or box 40) series which people value more..
believe me.. NO ONE IS COMPLAINING!
N Bwy
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The post-2004 D will share nearly all of its route with at least one other train. It will share Concourse with the B, the CPW Express with the A, the 6th Avenue Express again with the B and Brighton with the Q.
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Funny you should mention that, the #2 train is almost the EXACT same way, except the D has plenty more stops by itself(as a Brighton 24/7 local) while the #2 has 1 stop(only 1) by itself. By that logic shouldn't the 2 be part time as well?
Which line would give off-peak service on upper White Plains Road and on Nostrand? Which line would give late night service on lower White Plains Road (which isn't on White Plains Road, I know), on Lenox, and between Chambers and Nevins?
There is one line that has one stop of its own at all times and one more stop of its own at night and on weekends (counting a station complex as a single station). Cancel the E!
I used that to prove that the D can be full time, I know there are ways around the #2 service, many of them occured during Lenox Rehab 1998
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Which line would give off-peak service on upper White Plains Road and on Nostrand? Which line would give late night service on lower White Plains Road (which isn't on White Plains Road, I know), on Lenox, and between Chambers and Nevins?
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Well several things could happen, like during 1998, the (5) ran at night between Bowling Green and 241 Street(weekends and weekend nights), the (S) served Dyre Avenue during this time full time
The (2) could run shuttle between 135 and 149 Streets (turning on 'M' track)
the (3) could run from New Lots to 148 St
the (3) could also run to 149 Street Grand Concourse (leaving the shuttle buses at 135 Street for #3 service)
#2 shuttle buses could run from 145 Street to 149 Street Grand
the (4) could run from 149 Street to Woodlawn
The (4) could run from 125 Street to Woodlawn
The (5) could run from Flatbush to 241 Street
The (2) or (S) could run from 180 to Dyre
The (6) could run from 125 Street to Pelham Bay Park(depending upon the budget)
of course if the TA had made a connection with the (3) and (4) lines in the Bronx, the (2)'s priority could easily be changed again
Worse case scenario could be the (5) running from Flatbush to Dyre and the (2) running from 180 to 241
I don't want the (2) to be cut, just pointing out the similarities between the (2) and (D) I still think the D should be 24/7 since it is the main Concourse line, plus it goes to 205 St while the B only goes to 200 St, which should NOT be changed. Also the 4 and D are the lines recognized for Yankee Stadium (some references to the stadium still mention the C train instead of the B)
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There is one line that has one stop of its own at all times and one more stop of its own at night and on weekends (counting a station complex as a single station). Cancel the E!
----
Like I said before I am not saying that the 2 should be cut back, just making a point about the D train running 24/7 (although the 2 would be harder to replace it could be done)
as part of budget cuts, some of the Queens lines should be cut back to bare bones as well, but I will save that for another thread
And what about Nostrand Av and north of East 180 St via WPR? The 2 CANNOT be part time under these or any circumstances.
Why can't the Q continue to make the Brighton Local stops 24/7? Why can't the D run express? You didn't read the whole post. And I will ask the same question once again:
Is there a reason the Q can't run local and 24/7 on the Brighton line?
That would seem like an interesting idea, but it seems that the TA prefers the longer lines that go more places to be the full time service. When they were considering closing down most lines midnights, it seemed the D along with the A would have been among those to still operate.
Unlike western Brooklyn which has more of an ethnic relation to Queens and may prefer Broadway, there are probably a lot of Brighton riders who go uptown.
The D on the Brighton seems to have been the centerpiece of the Chrystie St. connection from the first plans (note the Brighton was the first line with stations lengthened, even before the first preliminary plans were published a year later. It stuck, and it seemed that the population distribution even reshaped around it. That now seems to be fixed, and despite the claim that every possible routing is being looked into, it's hard to imagine them doing anything else.
And short turn D trains at 34 St late nights, I don't think so, let the D take the role it did prior to 7/22/01. I agree that the B could and should be the full time West End service come 2004 I don't see a problem with that but late nights it should stay as the West End shuttle.
No, don't run the D at all. B full-time Concourse-West End, D part-time Concourse-Brighton, Q full-time Broadway-Brighton. Why is that not an option?
No, don't run the D at all. B full-time Concourse-West End, D part-time Concourse-Brighton, Q full-time Broadway-Brighton. Why is that not an option?
Yes, that could be an acceptable option.
Elias
"B full-time Concourse-West End, D part-time Concourse-Brighton"
And if for some reason Concourse riders are so tradition bound (as Selkirk claims) that they can't bear the loss of their beloved D, just switch the names of the two services.
Îf the B ran as often as the D, they wouldn't care.. But it doesn't.. so that might be a problem.
N Bwy
"No, don't run the D at all. B full-time Concourse-West End, D part-time Concourse-Brighton, Q full-time Broadway-Brighton. Why is that not an option? "
That's a much more expensive option.. and with all cuts being proposed, it does not seem logical at this time..
One suggestion.... put the N on the express track via bridge.. and let that be your weekend service.
N Bwy
I agree that the B could and should be the full time West End service come 2004 I don't see a problem with that but late nights it should stay as the West End shuttle.
WRONG! That line belongs to the BMT! (period)
No line belongs to the BMT. The Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit Corporation ceased to exist in 1942. Service patterns should not be dictated by history, they should be dictated by the today's track alignments and MODERN passenger demands.
There you go again, making too much sense.
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't get all this BMT-IND fued stuff. It's all the subway, what difference does it make? I'm not a big fan of the 6th Ave line, and certainly like Broadway better, but whoa everyone still has the Hylan-BMT fued going.
As much as us railfans think the subway is run for us, it's a modern transportation system and should be run to the fullest using current track alignments.
By this thinking the Queens Blvd line should not have been connected to the Broadway subway, either. Isn't the R an interloper on the IND?
Geesh!
The Broadway link did not open until around 1954, nearly 20 years after the first IND Queens Blvd segement opened.
The Broadway link did not open until around 1954, nearly 20 years after the first IND Queens Blvd segement opened.
Of course, and the Chrystie connection which was what we were originally talking about (when the BMT and IND fully mixed) wasn't until 1967, nearly 35 years after the first IND Queens Blvd segment opened. When the connections opened isn't the issue, they were complaining for some reason about the how IND 6th Ave trains invaded the BMT southern Brooklyn lines. I was just pointing out how the BMT also "invaded" the IND.
The two divisions were already unified when the BMT went on the QB line, which is IND so I don't see the big deal here. The services are working and that's what matters.
Exactly, that is the point I was originally trying to make before I got tangled up in this madness.
Sheesh, the divisions were combined SIXTY years ago and I can't believe some people here are still not over it >:-o! I just had to throw in my opinion b/c this is a senseless argument, the letter system is one div. and that's it.
"When the connections opened isn't the issue, they were complaining for some reason about the how IND 6th Ave trains invaded the BMT southern Brooklyn lines. I was just pointing out how the BMT also "invaded" the IND. "
I'm sure the passengers using the Queens Blvd line did not see it as an invasion.. they saw it as a major improvement in service.. The same can be said when they remove the G line.. in favor of the V line... The original local of the Queen Blvd lines...
N Bwy
The "they" was other SubTalkers, not Queens riders. Follow the sequence fo posts that led to that post. Although, I'm out of that thread now.
Go way back in the posts and you'll see what led to this.
"Isn't the R an interloper on the IND?"
It's obvious by the letter formula
E, F, GG all follow a sequence of 5, 6, 7/7
R represents the 18 letter of the alphabet... so figure that...
N Broadway Line
Well it was BMT trackage until the early 40's, it is now the BMT-IND, see they are now >ONE< division! So stop this divisive stuff, it was combined over 60 years ago.
"And short turn D trains at 34 St late nights, I don't think so, let the D take the role it did prior to 7/22/01. I agree that the B could and should be the full time West End service come 2004 I don't see a problem with that but late nights it should stay as the West End shuttle. "
If the MTA is really concern about maintaining the fare, they should cut the B on the weekends and make it a shuttle.. I said this, because, I rode it several times on the weekend and no one was hardly on it.
The "C" is really enough.. if people want better service.. take the #1 or 2/3 lines....
N Broadway Line
The B hasn't run on weekends since 7/21/01. Where have you been?
Especially with a major museum at one of the local stations, there's no reason local passengers should have to transfer at Columbus Circle to reach 6th Avenue. From what I've seen on weekends, C's along CPW tend to be more crowded than D's. If CPW has three weekend services, two should be locals. (For those who travel through, that adds three minutes to their trips. One poster commented that he didn't mind the three minutes -- it was all the annoying ding-dongs that he didn't like. I'm afraid I can't sympathize.)
The 1 is ten minutes away and the 2/3 doesn't help local passengers.
What about the West side and East side, most of the trains are express, in most cases there are 3 services and two of them are express, what they can do is increase C service and send it to Lefferts, this will increase the CPW local service(unfortunately it will slightly decrease A service, but increase it to the Rockaways).
I've suggested running some or all weekend 3 trains local north of Times Square, where the 1 tends to be more crowded than the 2/3. The 2 would still run express. (The local has standees as early as 8am on weekends and as late as 2am -- I can't speak for the six hours in between.)
I don't know if there's a problem on the East Side. On weekends, the express seems to be much more crowded than the local, but I'll grant that I don't ride the line much, and when I do I'm usually on the express, so I can't readily see conditions on the local between 42nd and 103rd.
They could be full-time services if the TA all of a sudden finds the money to run three services from the southern division to Manhattan at night. Then you'd have the B via 6th, the Q via bridge & Broadway Exp., and the N local to Astoria. Remember, the Brighton has the greatest ridership, so it gets the preference. The pecking order is roughly Brighton > West End > Slow Beach > 4th Av. And preference is at night is midtown > downtown. IMHO, B and Q as full-time services to Manhattan just ain't gonna happen.
Why not run the Q 24/7 as now and run the D weekdays only? The B could also run 24/7 so there would be full-time access from 6th Avenue to Brooklyn.
The MTA needs to beef up the feeder buses to west end express stops. This would allow the MTA to eliminate most of the express bus service in the bensonhurst/bath beach/ dyker hights area. Many people take the express bus(especially since the fare was reduced to $3) due to the fact that the west end B is such a slow ride into manhattan. The same can be said for the R which makes all local stops on the 4th ave line.
The lack of an west end express and the poor placement of the express stations is the reason people don't use the west end and opt for the costlier to operate express buses.
What makes the brighton line so popular is it is a 30 miniute ride from bighton beach to midtown.
The Brighton express staitions are fed by a feeder bus system that shuttles commuters to the express stops .b31 to kings highway even though ave U is the closesest subway stop is a good example. The brighton line also does a good job of timing the arival of local trains just prior to the arival of express trains allowing riders to transfer conviently to Q express service. The Q local looses 1/3 its riders as it enters sheapshead bay, kings highway and newkirk ave.
The Brighton line does not need more rush hour service and definitly does not need the M which goes nowhere brighton riders want to go
Not to mention the West End slows down considerably btw Ft Hamilton Pkwy and 36 St to the north and after 25 Av to the south and not all the West End stations have feeder bus lines as the Brighton basically does. And the R is pokey slow and takes long to come to begin with, that's how the X27/37 and X28/38 has so much service.
M service is redundant south of Broad St. outside of rush hours when there are 2 Bway services running through Montague St. M service on the Brighton line was a mistake to begin with. It's insufficient as the only local service and the capacity to run it and another line doesn't exist. It's not coming back to the Brighton line in '04 due to the unwillingness to route Brighton trains via the tunnel the TA has shown in recent years. Currently, the M should be cut back to Broad St. midday hours. When the N returns to the bridge, the M can resume it's midday forays to 9th Ave.
M service is redundant south of Broad St. outside of rush hours when there are 2 Bway services running through Montague St.
Then make the N train express from 34th St Manhattan to 59th St Brooklyn off-peak :-D
I think the N will be remaining in the rathole for a good long while to come. I'm about to put up a pointer in a new thread about what it looks like is coming based on followups to a report in the Albany Times Union that I'll link to. MASSIVE cutbacks coming ...
4 bridge trains? Only one train serving stations between Whitehall and City Hall? Not good ideas.
The W should go to white hall street.. and the N should go on the bridge after 2004... meanwhile the M will be the second train through the montague tunnel middays.
N Bwy
That makes perfect sense. I'd assume the final service plan will reflect this.
I can't conceive of it either, but seeing all the cost cutting that is to take place between now and 2005 (and probably beyond), watch that question, at the very least, be debated in public.
Wouldn't the riders appreciate restoration of the M to express service on Broadway? If I used the Myrtle, that's the first thing I'd want.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
The M used to be my line, so there's always a place in my heart for it. However, realisticly, there is no way the M should run express between Myrtle and Marcy. The M is the only service at the local stations in between, in the peak direction. The J/Z express there is necessary for the skip/stop service to work, and the J seems to be the more logical express train for the rest of the day when the Z is not running.
As for service improvements on the M, I think since it started running "temporarily" on the West End, it had sort of been a lost train looking for a home. It doesn't really belong on the West End. When the Bridge is open again, better service for the West End would be to restore the B as the regular service running all times. Have the W supliment with the B, and send the M back over to Brighton to serve as a local with the D (which should also return). The Q could handle the express service.
However, in the same token, I don't think you would need the M to be on the Brighton during the whole day. Would there be room to terminate it at Atlantic? Possibly, that brings us back to the fact that maybe the M on the West End may be the better option, because it is a good terminal to end it at 9th Ave.
The poor M seems like a lost soul, trying to find out where it's supposed to go.
How could the M terminate at Atlantic Ave? There are no crossovers in the Flatbush Interlocking, and turning it back at ANY station on the Brighton Line north of Brighton Beach would be impossible. (Also you need to build a crew facility at Atlantic Ave)
Oops. You misunderstood, although I wasn't clear. I said Atlantic sarcastically, the "Possibly" was meant for the next statememnt. It's not possible to short turn M's on the Brighton, that's why perhaps, the M is best where it is on the West End.
I think that's the point. The M is the only service that runs from the Nassau line through the Montague tunnel. Beyond DeKalb, it doesn't really matter much where it goes, but the West End has some useful characteristics: 9th Avenue is the closest point past DeKalb where trains can short-turn off-peak; the West End is only served by the W, a bridge train, so with the M it gets supplemental tunnel service (which might also be useful on the Brighton, but the Brighton express stations already have about twice as much service as the West End); and by sending the M down 4th Avenue, there can be two locals and two expresses, one of each turning off at 36th.
I don't see anything wrong with the M as it exists today. The only changes I'd consider possibly worthwhile are merging it with the C or V (and sending something else through Montague) or extending it into Manhattan on weekends, perhaps even connecting it with the N at Pacific. But Brighton? Does the Brighton really have three times the demand of the West End? I haven't checked the numbers but I doubt it.
I don't much care what the M has done in the past. We're in the present and all that's coming up is the future. Let's discuss where the M would do best in the present and/or the future.
Perhaps next year, the W and B will both serve the West End, in which case the M will be overkill and can go back to the Brighton. But, frankly, much as I enjoy coming up with extravagant fantasy plans, I don't see why tremendous service increases on the BMT are warranted. Let's stick with two services on the Brighton, two on the West End, one on the Sea Beach, and one on the Bay Ridge, with some shifting of routes into Manhattan and some small service boosts on each -- I think that's enough. If there's money available for more service increases than that, use the money on the IRT (perhaps for capital improvements to improve capacity, e.g., rebuilding the interlockings at Rogers and 96th or installing a proper terminal at 137th), where crowding is much worse.
Aside from leaving the M where it is, I think the only other future option could be the M and V (or perhaps the C) merger, like mentioned. This has been talked to death here, but if the W does remain on the West End, and the B returns, it could be an option. I like the V/M merger better than the C because I feel it would be easier to implement. The V would only have to be cut back from one station (2nd Ave itself would be the only station to loose service), and converted to 60 foot cars. The V should be able to run 8 car trains.
The Pandora’s Box it opens up though is that then it would sever Broad Street from the Montague Tunnel. Would it then be necessary to extend the J through there? And where would that terminate (the same problem the M has now, where should it go?) In addition, headways would have to be increased on the J because of the loss of the M after Essex Street. All these rhetorical questions have tricky answers. While I doubt they will be using the Nassau/6th Ave connection in the near future anyway, we will all anxiously await how they will decide to deal with all the lines when the MB reopens in 2004.
"In addition, headways would have to be increased on the J because of the loss of the M after Essex Street."
Not sure about that. So many people get off at Essex that the J/M/Z trains aren't THAT full between Essex and Broad.
True, a good portion of the Nassau Line's ridership is people transfering between it an all the other lines. The Nassau Line connects to almost every trunk line on it's short run through Manhattan.
Yes, the Nassau line IS a important line for the vital connections to the trunk lines but if you ask me, the line is under appreaciated.
"Yes, the Nassau line IS a important line for the vital connections to the trunk lines but if you ask me, the line is under appreaciated. "
Yeah... If people don't double back to Suphin Blvd to catch the E, they will get an A at Broadway East NY... And the remaining passengers use the F at Essex Street.
The only time the J ever saw passengers after Chambers Street heading south.. was after 9/11.. and that was for a short period.
But I have to say, while the J was serving 95th Street... people seem to appreciate it more.. than the current "R" service.. The same was said about the Q line when it ran to 71st Continental Ave.
The R just SUCKS!
N Broadway Line
I can agree with you about the J.That is ,after all,my favorite.
Then who are all those people I see getting on and off the J at Fulton?
"Then who are all those people I see getting on and off the J at Fulton?"
I'm not familiar with the J line at Fulton Street, because I, too, get off at Delancey Street. But I do notice a substantial decline in passengers as the train leaves the station.
N Bwy
most are going UPTOWN....which is why an direct 6th ave service,operating at ALL TIMES,SHOULD BE CREATED....And made into the mailline service.Let the Second ave line have the Nassaua st route.
I definitely agree. A 6th Avenue-Willy B service should happen. And unlike the old KK service, it needs to be a full-time service. Send the M onto 6th Avenue and combine it with the V. It's silly for the V to dead-end at 2nd Avenue and for the M to be a shuttle on weekend, when they have a good opportunity to turn both lines into a more popular line. And the new V/M combo would still continue to take the pressure off the E and F, like V was intended to.
I would rather see the J line being put on 6th Avenue instead of the "M" line.. The J can be an alternative to the B in the Bronx.
N Bwy
Really, people actually appreciated the J and the Q better? I would have thought with the shorter trains, Bay Ridge riders would have disliked the J. And it's not like the Q ran express in Manhattan while it replaced the R during the first six weeks after 9/11. It was local, except that it switched to the express track to go over the bridge. I'm surprised to hear that R riders seemed to appreciate the replacement J and Q services. But without the R what Broadway train will run local when the Manny B has all four of its tracks back in service?
And please don't say the N.
But a number of people also get on at Essex -- probably not as many as get off, and probably with less of a rush hour peak, but enough that they can't be entirely ignored. (When I'm on the LES, my preferred route home is J/M/Z to 2/3 to 1/9 -- as bad as the transfer at Fulton is, it's better than the IND - IRT transfer at 14th. I can't do that on weekends, unfortunately; if I don't feel like doing the transfer at 14th, I'll go J - Q - 1.)
I've probably said this before, but why do J/M/Z - 2/3 - 1 when you could ride F - B/D - 1, transferring at 42nd and 59th - is 59th really so bad that you need to transfer at Fulton?
It's not terrible -- there's just something about that transfer that I don't like. It was better before the direct passageway to the south end of the IRT platform was closed in the late 80's or early 90's. There's also something about the F that I don't like, especially on weekends.
I suppose I should be glad I have all these options.
I suppose I should be glad I have all these options.
Yep! If you had all weekend on your hands, you could even ride the M15 and M104 buses!
Nah. Then I'd have to walk to Allen!
James, are you sure you've never been to New York-either now or in a former life?????
Probably, but if I started yelling that I was Washington Roebling re-incarnate, no-one would take me seriously ;-)
as bad as the transfer at Fulton is, it's better than the IND - IRT transfer at 14th.
I avoid that at all costs. That has got to be one of the longest, endless passageways!
Some very good responses. I agree that if, and I qualify "if" things get back to normal on the Bridge, either the M or the J should be extended to Coney Island (once the Stillwell rebuild has been completed). Brighton is not a good place to turn local trains as it was not designed to do so. I disagree with the notion of continuing to run the Q full-time. Broadway does not need the service outside of rush-hour. Therefore, I believe that it would make sense to cut the Q back to rush-hour only service as the Brighton-Local/Broadway Express to 57th Street, Ditmars or Continental Avenue. The D can again run over the bridge and run Express/Brighton Rush-Hours and Mid-Day (at least). It certainly could serve once again as the Brighton Local all other times. I would support broader Brighton Express service if ridership really warrants it. Which gets me to my point about the West End.
I agree that B service could be restored, but I'm afraid that ridership could not be justified for Express service to Bay Parkway, whether it be M, W or T....as much as I would like it to be. The only way to find out for sure is to run the service for a long enough period of time for people to get used to it and then quantify the results. People do not like change. It takes a long time to figure out what they will utilize and what they won't. The TA has not been very patient with Express services in the past.
And the TA is STILL not patient with express services, especially creating new ones. From what you're saying, you would basically go back to the 1985-1986 pattern of the Q running rush hours only. the D having selected trains run express to Brighton Beach and the M running to Coney Island via Brighton local. If M service is not needed during the midday, it could run to Broad St or Chambers St, the Q express has steady ridership middays and the D should stay the Brighton local all times. I wouldn't rule out a weekend Brighton express but right now it is not really needed; although I say it would work during the summer months when people go to Coney Island and the beach.
I don't think the "M" worked while it was serving brighton.. and was pretty much a fill in like the G line was on Queens Blvd... Like.. people took it because they had to.. but when they had a chance to get on a "real" train, they got off.. That train was the "D" express... unforunately... But as a long time "A" rider.. you got to be kidding..
N Broadway Line
Brighton is not a good place to turn local trains as it was not designed to do so.
Correct! Brighton Beach is where you turn the *EXPRESS* trains around. The Local (a 24/7 route) continues on into Coney Island. The (Q) is that express (14/7) and the (D) is the local (24/7).
No trains can (or should) terminate at 57th Street (either on Bway, or on 6th Ave) as this would exclude the use of the 63rd Street tunnel on that line. Of course you need more capacity in Queens if you wanted to push more trains through that tunnel anyway.
Express services, especially in Manhattan are there to increase line capacity, not to provide you with a faster line. So the question is do lines like the West End need more capacity than the local can cover?
Elias
No trains can (or should) terminate at 57th Street (either on Bway, or on 6th Ave) as this would exclude the use of the 63rd Street tunnel on that line. Of course you need more capacity in Queens if you wanted to push more trains through that tunnel anyway.
True. And as for 57th/6th, once they opened the 63rd street line to Queensbridge, 57th days as a terminal ended for all practical purposes. Even more so now that it is fully connected to the Queens Line.
I agree but where are you going to run the Q, remember the threads with possibly running the Q to 179 St and the uproar it caused. 57/6 Av not being a terminal anymore was very smart, now if they could only do the same for the Q getting away from 57/Bway and going into Queens.
My fault I meant 57/7 Av.
Unless the 2 Ave subway gets built, and they run Broadway trains through to Lexington Ave Station and on towards Second Ave, 57th/Broadway Line can be used as a terminal with no problem. Actually, the express tracks actually terminate at Lexington Ave on the unused side of the station platforms, hidden behind the walls. OTH, 57th/6th can never be used as a terminal again. Technically, the roles could be reversed, as Broadway trains could run through the 63rd Street connecetor, and 6 Ave trains could terminate at 57th (as has been done for trackwork), but on a regular service basis that would be silly.
So unless a 2 Ave subway is built, 57th/7th can operate quite well as a terminal. When and if SAS is built, it would become a standard "eppress" stations, with the expresses continuing on to 2 Ave.
There is no reason why Bway and 6th Avenue cannot both operate through the 63rd Street tunnel to Queens.
the problem is where to terminate the BMT trains that now end at 57/7?
Clearly Continential is out, it is already stuffed; 179th street has the capacity, but they tell me that the QB line is running to capacity, (a situation I hardly believe, but so they say) The other deal is that there is not enough rolling stock to run the Q to 179, and so they are short turning it at 57th.
As far as I can figure the track structue, there is no reason to wait (and wait and wait and wait and wait ...) for the 2nd Avenue Line to be built before the BMT can be extended into Queens.
Which probably brings me to a 4th idea on how to rebuild all of Queens.
Elias
I don't see the problem. For the time being, either the Q can terminate at 57/7 or the Q can run into Queens (more likely the former, IMO). Nothing else on Broadway is going to terminate at 57/7 and nothing else is going to use that connection to run to Queens. So if we decide to terminate the Q at 57/7, all it's blocking is itself, but that's fine!
If, for whatever reason, we do decide to run a different line through the connection, the Q can terminate at Times Square, as it does during GO's that send the R through the connection. Not many people stay on the Q past Times Square anyway.
Look at the track configuration west ("south") of Lex. If the 2nd Avenue subway is ever built, the Q will probably continue past 57/7 onto upper 2nd Avenue, with a cross-platform transfer at Lex to the F to Queens.
Hey David, look at my post, it's almost identical! We must have been typing at the same time.......
Indeed. In a way, it would be better to terminate the F train at 57th St and send the Q train to 179th St - IIRC the configuration of 57/7 makes you guess which platform the next Q train will be at.
An interesting point. Would Queens express passengers prefer direct access to Broadway or to 6th? IIRC, the F runs 15 tph. Does the Q run 15 tph, either now (circle and diamond combined) or after the bridge is reopened (just one service, presumably)?
or after the bridge is reopened (just one service, presumably)?
Never presume - the B train could switch to the local at 34th and be routed through the Chrystie St connector to Metropolitan Avenue, the J/Z could replace the M in South Brooklyn, leaving two Q's on the Brighton, the J/Z and D on the West End, the N on the Sea Beach and the R on the 4th Avenue Local. Unlikely, but possible.
For the record, I believe the two Q's total 16tph at peak times, so would be a comparable replacement for the F train in Queens.
"Never presume - the B train could switch to the local at 34th and be routed through the Chrystie St connector to Metropolitan Avenue"
Nope, that doesn't work. 15 Fs, 10 Vs, 8 Bs, too many trains.
What the hell are you thinking switching B's to the local at 34 St? The local doesn't need 33tph on the local south of 34 St, you could switch it at W 4 or Broadway-Lafayette and besides, the V would be the best line from 6 Av to run via the Broadway el, 2 Av is just a silly terminal to begin with but that's all they could come up with.
What the hell are you thinking switching B's to the local at 34 St?
1) It is a hypothetical half-crazed but just possible situation.
2) I don't actually support that. I was just illustrating the vast possibilities.
3) The IND used to switch the BB to the local IINM, so don't sound too outraged.
"2 Av is just a silly terminal to begin with but that's all they could come up with. "
Too bad Delancey Street couldn't have been a terminal.. It is a very well used station.. especially with that connection with the J/M/Z lines..
N Bwy
Well its only 2 tracks so there's no way that could happen while F trains are running. If Delancey St was configured like 2 Av, then it would have been great for the V.
Right now, the Q runs about 15tph combined in Manhattan. When the Q was separate and ran via 6 Av, it ran at 10tph. As for the 63 St connector, tht is rather interesting I say leave the F the way it is now and POSSIBLY squeeze a few Q's through 63 and runs to 179 St.
Can't do that -- there's no room in Queens and through Q's would be blocked by terminating Q's at 57/7.
True. The Q has to terminate somewhere (northbound), and all Q service will go where that terminates.
Quite true. Still, I believe it could be worked out. AM rush, from Queens, 12 Es from Jamaica Center (of which 6 to Chambers, 3 to Euclid), 9 Fs (Hillside Loc.) and 9 Qs (Hillside Exp.); from Brooklyn 9 Fs, 12 Qs, and only 9 Es returning from Chambers. That gives 30 both ways. Also, would allow up to 9 Vs to go to Culver (to replace lost Fs). Max out Brighton service with 12 Ds for Brighton local. Saves turning around Qs and Vs at 57th and at 2nd Av.
"Right now, the Q runs about 15tph combined in Manhattan. When the Q was separate and ran via 6 Av, it ran at 10tph. As for the 63 St connector, tht is rather interesting I say leave the F the way it is now and POSSIBLY squeeze a few Q's through 63 and runs to 179 St. "
You can't do that, because you will have to reduce the E line.. and right now.. the "E" is the most pack trains on Queen Blvd.
N Bwy
"IIRC the configuration of 57/7 makes you guess which platform the next Q train will be at."
There is a "next train" sign with an arrow up in the mezzanine. The only problem is if you can take either the Q or the local. Then you can't simultaneously wait for all trains. You may be waiting on the downtown platform and see the Q head off southward from the uptown platform, or vice versa.
from what I read,the R will be the new 2 avenue/Broadway Express.It ,in turn,will be replaced in Queens by a new T train.
"from what I read,the R will be the new 2 avenue/Broadway Express.It ,in turn,will be replaced in Queens by a new T train."
You got to be kidding... NOW THAT'S REALLY FUNNY!!!! The "Q" is already set up for a second Avenue routing..
N Bwy
no,I not kiddin'. I read it from the MTA'S own scopping documents as the desired service plan.... go there yourself and take alook see...
Anything's possible, but I doubt it. The only route the R can take without crossing paths with another line is the one it does now through Brooklyn and Manhattan, local all the way.
Perhaps you're thinking of the Manhattan Bridge switcheroo? It's not in the latest plans. (IMO, it was a silly idea anyway. Locals would become expresses and expresses would become locals.)
Perhaps you're thinking of the Manhattan Bridge switcheroo?
I thought that was "What's good for the local, is good for the express."
"I agree but where are you going to run the Q, remember the threads with possibly running the Q to 179 St and the uproar it caused. 57/6 Av not being a terminal anymore was very smart, now if they could only do the same for the Q getting away from 57/Bway and going into Queens. "
The "Q" might be slated to run via second avenue.. not Queens... The "F" is already going to Queens.. And you can't cut into the "E" train compacity
N Bwy Line
I agree, running M's express won't work nowadays since you have the J running all day in the peak direction and Z's in the rush hour so the M takes the local stops.
One the M left the Brighton line, it really wasn't the same and it looks out of place on the West End. That's what happens when you "temporarily" move a subway line in the MTA and the Brighton local could use the extra sevice and would attract more riders than it does on the West End, you have people who crowd on the W b/c its the 4 Av express. And BTW, you can't switch trains at Atlantic while the D & Q is running it won't work at all.
Remember that the M running all day is only temporary to replace Grand St. access. When the connection is restored again, it will once again be cut back at Chambers middays.
The M ran middays south of Chambers before the 1995 service cuts. Given the current financial climate, this doesn't seem likely, but the service cut could be undone permanently (or as close to permanently as can be on the subway).
And before they expanded the N express via 4 Av to all day weekdaysm, the M used to run via 4 Av express on weekdays until 1994, when it became the second 4 Av local running with the R when it ran to Bay Parkway/9 Av weekdays.
Which didn't make much sense -- two expresses to/from the West End and no expresses south of 36th. The current pattern is better: West End passengers have direct local and express service and something runs express south of 36th. The only stations that lost service are 45th and 53rd, and, despite what someone suggested in another thread, I think the R alone can handle the load.
"Which didn't make much sense -- two expresses to/from the West End and no expresses south of 36th. The current pattern is better: West End passengers have direct local and express service and something runs express south of 36th. The only stations that lost service are 45th and 53rd, and, despite what someone suggested in another thread, I think the R alone can handle the load. "
It made sense for people who can't stand the "R" line.
Anyway, if no one is using the M, "because it's not a 4th Avenue express.. wouldn't it be better running local to 95th Street w/ the "R"?
N Bwy
There were so few riders on it, and there still are, even after the demand of Chinatown, so that will be the first to go once Grand St. is back.
"As for service improvements on the M, I think since it started running "temporarily" on the West End, it had sort of been a lost train looking for a home. It doesn't really belong on the West End. When the Bridge is open again, better service for the West End would be to restore the B as the regular service running all times. Have the W supliment with the B, and send the M back over to Brighton to serve as a local with the D (which should also return). The Q could handle the express service."
In 1983, I heard as a very young child that the M would be better via 4th Avenue... now as a young man I'm hearing the complete opposite... what gives....
lets see.... if I can piece this whole senario together... But first I must ask a series of questions.. What is the population statistics on the "M" line during the morning rush hours into downtown Manhattan?
Is someone a rider of this line... I heard that the reason why the M goes to bay parkway, was because it is like a fill in for the B line... Is the West end line so popular that it needs two lines? And, could the west end line survive without the "M" line running on it..
Anyway, to answer this post directly.. wouldn't the "M" running with the "D" via the Brighton Line be a little too much service? And since the Q is schedule to run less often than the D, wouldn't it make more sense to run the D express and the M/Q local?
I'm not a regular rider of the Brighton Line.. but it makes more sense to have the D express...
But frankly, I prefer the "M" on the West End Line after what people told me about the overcrowding on the B line.
N Bwy
As a kid I rode the M train on the Brighton Line during rush hours on several occasions. I also rode the train from lower Manhattan to the Brighton Line on a few occasions. I'll tell you firsthand that the Brighton M used to get VERY crowded in both directions at times. From what I've seen of the West End's M train, I'm 90% sure the West End M's ridership today doesn't even come CLOSE to the Brighton M. I believe that during rush hours, there's enough passengers on the Brighton to warrant 3 lines.
I think the West End could use two lines during rush; a rush-hour express to CI and a local to Bay Pkwy (9th Ave during non-rush weekdays). I also believe that the West End Local should be a Broadway Local. I have a gut feeling that more West End riders would ride a Broadway Local than a Nassau Local.
Finally in my opinion, the Q should be the Brighton Express and here's why. Riders in general tend to favor the express. However, from what I remembered, people also generally favored 6th Ave service over Broadway. Having the Q run express and the D local would probably even out the ridership on both Brighton lines. Doing the opposite would result in an overcrowded D, just as it usually did before the Bridge repairs.
"Finally in my opinion, the Q should be the Brighton Express and here's why. Riders in general tend to favor the express. However, from what I remembered, people also generally favored 6th Ave service over Broadway. Having the Q run express and the D local would probably even out the ridership on both Brighton lines. Doing the opposite would result in an overcrowded D, just as it usually did before the Bridge repairs. "
The 6th Avenue Line was FORCED on people, while the Broadway Line has seen a major service reduce over the years. Plus, before the bridge closures happened... who will want to deal with an infrequent "Q" service..? would you?
Watch... once the 6th Avenue Lines returns to the Bridge.. many of those people aren't going to return... They are going to realize that Broadway Line is a better option...
I can't WAIT!!!
Especially if the "Q" remains express... I'm ROUTING FOR YOU "Q" although... as a Broadway Line myself.... I thought you got favorable treatment...
Lets put that behind us... We must WORK AS A TEAM... F..... SIXTH AVENUE!
N BROADWAY LINE
#1 IN SERVICE DISTRIBUTION!
WORK AS A TEAM... F..... SIXTH AVENUE
I suppose the Culver line has to go to 6th Avenue ;-)
What?
This isn't a debate to have all Broadway trains to serve the south bklyn corridor... this is about retaining the same type of BWY service that is seen today... when the 6th Avenue Line returns to the bridge.
N Bwy
"I suppose the Culver line has to go to 6th Avenue ;-)"
It could go to 8th Ave. See
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=412975
Hey "N",
Yeah, I admit it, Q trains get favorable treatment. That's probably because more people ride the two Q's than the N. Not too many people ride the N these days because it doesn't go express north of Pacific. The old N, the Sea Beach/Broadway Express route (which was one of my favorite routes), would draw more people if it comes back.
I don't know about your 6th Ave vs. B'way argument. 6th Avenue has a LOT of corporate businesses between 34 and 57 Streets, more than Broadway through this stretch. Though B'way also has a growing share of corporations, it's not like 6th Ave. I'd say if the MTA gave about equal service on the north and south side of the Manny B now, the ridership would tip in favor of 6 Ave.
Hey, I'm "routing" for the return of the N Broadway Express train. That train was great when it was around.
"I'd say if the MTA gave about equal service on the north and south side of the Manny B now, the ridership would tip in favor of 6 Ave."
Don't forget the Culver Line only goes to 6th Ave. So if they put West End and Brighton on the north side of the bridge, and Sea Beach and Brighton on the south side, the majority of South Brooklyn service IS going to 6th Ave.
The ridership via the bridge would PROBABLY favor the 6 Av line BUT the Brighton riders for the Q will make up a large number for the Broadway side and if the N runs via bridge again, it willl boost ridership on this line, guaranteed and bring even more riders. The Broadway line has better transfer connections though & the Broadway line is revitalized and the 6 Av line has the businesses and Rockefeller Center so I'll say its even between the two lines.
No, not too many people ride the N in Brooklyn because the Sea Beach line runs through a low-density residential area and is sandwiched for much of its distance between other lines.
In Manhattan (on weekdays), lots of people ride the N -- it's one of only two routes that make some very busy local stops along the Broadway BMT.
When you talk about the M and the J, in my opinion, especially weekend service questions, you run into a problem-the Nassau line is too short, and to get anywhere in Manhattan, you have to transfer. Remember, when the BRT first landed in Manhattan, it was the Broadway Brooklyn line coming over the Williamsburg Bridge-I think at the time a newspaper said it was a place where almost noone wanted to go. To improve Eastern Division service to Manhattan on weekends, the Chrystie connection to 6 Av. must be brought back. That's the only plan (in my opinion, of course) that really makes any sense. As someone who has lived in parts of B'klyn serviced by the Eastern, believe me, travelling to and from Manhattan on weekends downright sucks. I was better off, but not by much, getting to the LL to get to Manhattan-of course that only added time to my trips. Cramming more trains into the Nassau line on weekends just isn't going to do it. If the Chrystie connection was used, you'd have a direct line straight to the heart of Manhattan- 6 Av.
You know, I think you guys should take a look at what I said about M line improvement-I just want to see if I'm alone in my opinion. It's message 430462.
Thanks.
You can't run the M via 6 Av since you would have nowhere to terminate trains at. You do bring up a interesting pointabout using the 6 Av/Williamsburg connector. You could extend the V via the Chrystie connector to Broadway Junction to supplement with the J and the V rolling stock would be 60 footers since 75 footers would be too long and can't make some turns on the Broadway el. It could go to Broadway Junction all times except nights, via express or local, preferably local.
Hey- that didn't dawn on me at all, being a BMT focused guy. I think that's a FANTASTIC idea. I relly think not using the Chyristie 6 Av/Williamburg connection is a HUGE waste. And, you wouldn't even necessarily have to go all the way to B'way Junction- Myrtle Av. would be just fine. Turning trains on the center track there would be fine, I think. The middle track is really only used as a terminal for the M shuttle, right?
Turning trains on the center track there would be fine, I think. The middle track is really only used as a terminal for the M shuttle, right?
Broadway Junction would work, but Myrtle would not. The J/Z use the middle track to run express b/t Marcy and Myrtle. The switches are only on the east side of the station. BJ would work. But I think a better option would be to have the J/Z run express from BJ to Marcy, and have the V run local. But that could not work, because the V would need the middle track to terminate. How about the V extended to Canarsie - two unused track connections back in revenue service. the V sure would become an interesting line!
(although I don't know how necessary it would be in Canarsie. It's an interesting fantasy though.
It would be interesting to have the V run to Carnasie BUT as anyone who rides the L line out to Rockaway Parkway know, there are too many L trains backed up as far as New Lots Avenue waiting for trains to leave the terminal. Adding another line to that stretch will make the situtation much worse than it is now. I'd say put the V to Metropolitan Ave where it would share the M line, which has fewer trains running and more frequent rush hour service is available between Metropolitan and Myrtle Aves will take place. This will attract more riders as well.
I agree that the M line V line merger is a better option (Canarsie sort of a fantasy like I said).
However, Myrtle is set up to act as a terminal. They could cut some trains run only as far as Myrtle. Much of the ridership for the Canarsie Line is between Manhattan and Myrtle. Many of the riders that use the L train most likely transfer to some other line anyway. However, this would not make the stations inbetween Myrtle and BJ to happy. Although Bushwick and Wilson have very low ridership anyway, so it may not be the end of the world. Atlantic used to be able to short turn trains, but that will is over with the current project.
Had Atlantic Av been kept the way it was, that would of been a perfect terminal for the V since the Canarsie-Broadway connector is still active. I thought of running the V to Metro Av but then I realized that Broadway Junction would be even better, especially weekends.
I totally agree with you. B'way Junction is one hell of a piece of beautiful transit architecture-might as well make the most of it. Atlantic was, too, before they screwed it all up.
It does need some brightening up and possibly some track upgrades but other than that its fine. See, Atlantic Av's reconfiguration severely reduced the chance of using the Canarsie-Jamaica connector w/o going to Rockaway Parkway & short turning trains for providing a new service.
Guys I think the M should run to 95 st as 4 th ave local.If they can turn N and W 's at Ditmars they can turn the R and M at 95 st.
Bay Ridge is booming extra service may not be needed between 95 and 59st but it will serve a purpose.On weekends there is no reason why the J cant go to Broad street,M shuttle service can stay or run to Chambers st.Now the T A doesnt have the car shortage excuse.But this is all if and when the bridge is ever normal.
Hmm. I don't have the numbers with me, but they're real, so i'm afraid you're going to have to trust me on this one.
Ridership at either 45 Street or 53 Street on 4 Avenue (i think it's 53 Street) has gone up by far more percentage-wise than the rest of the system. This pales in comparison with what's happened at 8th Avenue on the N Line, where passenger counts have essentially doubled during a very short timespan. In large part, this is probably due to the burgeoning Chinese community that started forming in southern Sunset Park c.1985-88.
I grew up on the Brighton Line, and there's nothing i'd like more than seeing the M back on it. But the facts speak for themselves. Only the R line often serves 45 and 53 streets. With track E3 (or is it E4?) out of commission over that part of the Sea Beach Line, an extra platform should be built at 8 Avenue over E3 and hooked up to the station house. (It wouldn't be hard.) The M should run local from Metropolitan Avenue to 8 Avenue 6a-9p weekdays, and possibly weekends, should demand dictate. Southbound Ms from 59 Street would switch onto the Sea Beach Line and utilize the existing switches to access the new 8 Avenue platform on the E4 track before returning north.
Thanks for your time. Thoughts?
::D
>>"Ridership at either 45 Street or 53 Street on 4 Avenue (i think it's 53 Street) has gone up by far more percentage-wise than the rest of the system. This pales in comparison with what's happened at 8th Avenue on the N Line, where passenger counts have essentially doubled during a very short timespan. In large part, this is probably due to the burgeoning Chinese community that started forming in southern Sunset Park c.1985-88."<<
Actually from what I've seen, 45 St and 53 St has had an increase in ridership but I think 53 has more and 8 Av has gone up as well, I'm not denying that it all comes down to whether the Sea Beach needs 2 local services and I'm 50/50 on that.
If you want the M to run via Sea Beach & terminate at 8 Av, why not just run it straight to Stillwell Av making all stops with the N.
If you want the M to run via Sea Beach & terminate at 8 Av, why not just run it straight to Stillwell Av making all stops with the N.
Because that's more expensive and it's unnecessary.
I think D has an interesting idea. I'd suggest that the southbound express track be reactivated through 8th Avenue, after which trains would switch to the northbound track. That way an island platform could be built over the northbound track at 8th Avenue, and northbound passengers who can use either the M or the N can board whichever shows up first.
I think this is also a very interesting idea. It may solve the "what to do with the M train" problem. As discussed, I feel the M is not really necessary on the West End, if the W stays. A better option would to have the W terminate at Bay Pkwy and 9th Ave, when the B returns, leaving Bway and 6th ave service on the WE, and the orange D and yellow Q on the Brighton (where the M really isn't necessary either).
In addition, I am not familiar with the ridership at 8th, but if what someone said was true about increased ridership at that station, it would also add service to the stations from 45th to 8th Ave, without overkill service on the Sea Beach.
Hey, 8th Ave may even be on the rollsigns from the Canarsie Line, just black out "Manhattan".
Based on an unscientific sample of 1 visit to Broad St., the M seems underused. I recommend sending it to midtown as the C or V.
7:12 PM today. Southbound M pulls into Broad, where a handful of people are waiting. Half the seats are unused as it heads into the tunnel to Brooklyn!
7:21 PM. Northbound M pulls into Broad. This train is a little more popular, but then again there's been no train at all (J or M) for at least 10 minutes.
7:29 PM. M leaves Bowery. The train is moderately full. However, hardly a person standing on the entire train. (I didn't stay on to see what Essex was like. Probably quite a crowd there, transferring from the F.)
I admit there could be more usage at 5:30. But any other line would be packed at 7:20 if there had been no train for 10 minutes or more.
The line does fill up by Essex usually. Over the Bridge, there will usually be standing people.
In the morning the M is very busy. When I used to take the line, it was standing room only by Forest Ave. You would loose quite a few people by Wyckoff, but quite a few get on also. By Knickerbocker the train is full again. By the time the M gets to Lorimer, I remember people having to squeeze in the train. Then the mass exodus at Essex Street. After Essex the train may have a few standers (people do get on also), but after Canal you could usually get a seat if you were going further.
The Essex Exodus shows that many people do transfer for the F and do want to go to midtown (not everyone that gets off is transfering, but I'd assume most are). A Chrystie train would work this time.
As for the M continuing south of Broad, the MTA gets funds from the state to run the M south of Broad. Someone mentioned that here a few weeks ago. So a Nassau train has to run through the Montague. I guess it doesn't necessarily have to be the M, but some train has to go through. I guess they could sent the M through to 6th ave, and have the Z terminate at Broad, and have the J go through to 4th Ave.
"As for the M continuing south of Broad, the MTA gets funds from the state to run the M south of Broad. Someone mentioned that here a few weeks ago. So a Nassau train has to run through the Montague. I guess it doesn't necessarily have to be the M, but some train has to go through. I guess they could sent the M through to 6th ave, and have the Z terminate at Broad, and have the J go through to 4th Ave."
The state money could be better spent elsewhere. I took the M at times from broad to dekalb during rush hour from 1996-1998. The train is 3/4 empty. It was a complete waste. Part of the reason why is the M comes less frequently then other options such as 2/3 or 4/5 which essentially take you to the same place faster(transfer for brighton at dekalb or atlantic/pacific or for 4th ave/west end servie at pacific) Both 2/3 or 4/5 are one block away from the broad st station and the n/r are two blocks.
unless the M gets business further uptown where employees need to get to atlantic for the LIRR/Brighton/4th AVE the M should be eliminated south of broad
The state money could be better spent elsewhere. I took the M at times from broad to dekalb during rush hour from 1996-1998.
It may be better spent elsewhere. The M is almost empty when it runs through the Montague, however, the state money is given specifically for that Nassau-Montague service. The person that mentioned that here said it was specifically given for that service because the people of I think Chinatown or somewhere in the LES lobbied for it.
7:21 PM. Northbound M pulls into Broad. This train is a little more popular, but then again there's been no train at all (J or M) for at least 10 minutes.
And quite how full would you have expected a Northbound J train to be, seeing as that only comes from the relay tracks South of Broad St? What difference would that make to a Northbound M train arriving at Broad?
"And quite how full would you have expected a Northbound J train to be, seeing as that only comes from the relay tracks South of Broad St?"
I should have said "This train would turn out to be a little more popular." It loaded quite a few passengers at Broad, Fulton, Chambers, Canal, and even Bowery. As I said, by the time it left Bowery the seats were mostly taken but almost no one was standing.
David Baldacci's "The Christmas Train?"
It's a rather slight holiday novel, but what makes it interesting is that it takes place on Amtrak's Capitol Limited and Southwest Chief. The acknowledgements make it clear it was written with the cooperation of Amtrak, and it really is a love letter to long-diatnce train travel -- with a lot of detail about on-board train operations and personnel. It also takes some policial shots against lack of funding, etc.
Where is amtrak arsenal interlock/tower located?
It is located just north of University Ave and well south of South St. along the SEPTA commuter line and the Amtrak line after it cuts under the hi-line. Below are two images of ARSENAL:
Whoops, got the link wrong:
For a moment, I thought this was Lane Interlocking in Elizabeth NJ. Or it could be Newark. Right by that fly-over just north of North Elizabeth station by the Budweiser Brewery. It even has the Sub Station there, too. Nice pics, though.
The give away is the curve in the trackage and the size of the flyover. Furthermore, LANE tower was razed years ago and was quite a bit smaller than ARSENAL.
Here's a slightly older photo of Arsenal Tower.
Of course, ARSENAL, like 95% of the former PRR towers............
IS CLOSED!!!!!!!!
It's all done from 30th Street, unless the fiber-optic cable gets cut.
Then the whole damn railroad shuts down.
The PRR has more surviving towers than any other Railroad. Especially if you count the LIRR. In Pennsylvania, New York and New Jersey HUDSON, DOCK, UNION, NORTH PHILADELPHIA, ZOO, OVERBROOK, PAOLI, THORN, PARK, CORK, STATE, ALTO, C, EAST CONWAY, HACK, UPPER BAY, BROAD, R and Q are still open.
I know about ZOO, but are the others mentioned still open and fully functioning?
Down thisaway, the former PRR towers are closed and in many cases, demolished. At Penn Station Baltimore the two towers that controlled the station are no longer in service. B&P Tower lost all but the ground floor when the MTA built their Penn Station branch. The other one (north end of the station) is gone. (The name escapes me at the moment.) BOWIE is a small rail museum, the still standing others are boarded up and vandalized.
At least down here the railroad is run from Philadelphia, and if the fiber-optic cable gets cut, everything comes to a halt. It's happened at least twice (amazing how contractors always manage to find water mains, gas lines, telephone lines that are invisable to them, but are clearly marked and on proper maps. Plus, the utilitys all pay to support "Miss Utility, but the evil backhoes find those lines every time), the first time the towers had just been closed, so they were able to get the railroad running in short order. However, the second time the towers weren't there any more. The signals went dark and the trains just sat.
There's gotta be some kind of local emergency panel in the Instrument House at each location. The problem is getting maintainers or other qualified people out there to run them in timely fashion, and then setting up some ad-hoc communiation system for sending orders.
Yup, all interlockings have a local control board. Usually, most intermediate interlockings don't have much action so the trains could proceed between terminals using dispatcher radio instructions and manual block protection. Furthermore, many old PRR towers on the NEC are MoW bases with crews and vehicles.
The signals shoudln't have gone dark, just flipped to stop. The inerlocking is a self contained unit that takes input from outside sources that then allows it to show indications other than STOP or S&P. On ABS or Rule 251 lines, the intermediate signals would have kept working, but on the Rule 261 NEC the block signals are effected by a traffic control lever. If the CTEC signal fails the block signals will failsafe to Stop and Proceed.
Back in PRR times there was a fire at Frankford Jct to cut power all up and down the Corridor. Some of the only diesels in the area were sent to ZOO to pump compressed air into the interlocking so that the switches could operate.
Anyway, the Amtrak Harrisburg line is still paper dispatched (it is the last such line in the country outside the LIRR to be so) with all the interlockings controled by interlocking towers.
BTW, most of the old towers along the NEC are still standing in some fashion or another.
But the LIRR was its own railroad, not part of PRR, was it?
Or are you just counting the total # of towers in the area, which are PRR+LIRR?
LIRR was controlled by the Pennsy for many years. Note the similarity in the old keystone logos, and the Position Light signalling.
If Bob Anderson is reading, I'm sure he will elaborate...
I can't give you a starting date, but the LIRR was one of those > 51% control corporations so common in the railroad world. At one time the PRR owned 33% of the Norfolk and Western and 97% of the Lehigh Valley. The LIRR was sold to the MTA in 1962 I think, but it cntinues to use the 1958 PRR rulebook (albeit with many "stickers").
I believe Arsenal is CSX's, not Amtrak's
ARSENAL is not longer a an interlocking on Amtrak's River Line into 30th St. It is only in service on SEPTA's suburban lines where the R1/2 diverge from the R3. I do know know the ownership implications, SEPTA vs Amtrak.
U.S. Rep. Bill Lipinski (D-IL) is pushing to establish (re-establish) trolley service on Chicago's southwest side Ogden Avenue (runs from the southwest northeast to just north of the Loop).
Chicago Sun-Times article:
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-trolley05.html
My favorite quote by Lipinski in the article, in typical Chicago clout terms, "I'm presuming both of those entities [the city and state] will look favorably on putting some money into this project because they want to make sure I look favorably [on their needs]."
*My favorite quote by Lipinski in the article, in typical Chicago clout terms, "I'm presuming both of those entities [the city and state] will look favorably on putting some money into this project because they want to make sure I look favorably [on their needs]."*
Chicago power politics...no pussyfooting around. Ya gotta love it!
Is Chicago going to try again to get federal funding for the Loop Circulator LRT? I believe the federal funding got cancelled in the mid 1990's.
>>Is Chicago going to try again to get federal funding for the Loop Circulator LRT? I believe the federal funding got cancelled in the mid 1990's.
There is a new proposal to dig an underground loop in what is now the Blue Line in the downtown area. This would compliment the current elevated loop. I've read material online about it, but I don't know where that information is now. Do any of our Chicago subtalkers know more?
There is also a proposal for a larger circle line that would provide crosstown service. Here is CTA's site on that one: Loop the Loop.
Mark
The "Blue Line Loop" you refer to is basically connecting the northwest and southwest branches of the subway portion of the Blue Line via a subway under Clinton Street. Clinton runs north/south directly west of both Northwestern Station and Union Station in the West Loop.
The long-range vision for Clinton is tri-leveled. Deep level for high-speed region rail (such as from Detroit or St. Louis), next level up for the Blue Line connecting subway, and then just below surface an underground busway to connect to a planned underground busway under Monroe and/or along Carrol Street (which is directly north of the river north of the Loop).
The City of Chicago's Central Area Plan: http://w4.ci.chi.il.us./planning/PressReleases/centralareaplan.html
Details about the Clinton corridor subways are here:
http://w4.ci.chi.il.us./planning/PressReleases/pdf/CH3b.pdf
I did read the article, and noted this sentence:
"There would be two strips of track so trolleys could simultaneously travel in each direction."
Good thing the Sun-Times has a transportation reporter who does his research and keeps the readers informed. (Or maybe he has only seen the one in Detroit that is basically a single track line.)
Or maybe the reporter just moved from Baltimore where a section of the light rail line is absurdly a single track.
Mark
Short sections of single track on LRT lines aren't necessarily disastrous. Very frequent services run through some such sections in Amsterdam, for example, where the streets are too narrow for double track. Parts of the Croydon Tramlink in London are single track and carry a 10-minute frequency in each direction; there's a bit of single track on the Docklands LR too (near Stratford) and there used to be another on the Docklands (on a very old single-track viaduct) near Island Gardens before the line was extended under the Thames.
What about the Western Avenue corridor? I think it's giant median strip would make a good place for some sort of transit line. The proposed Circle Line would make an L line there unnecessary, but maybe a streetcar line would do well there, being separated from traffic and all.
Mark
The problem with streetcars is that they run in the street. Auto and truck traffic can really slow them down, since they have no ability to maneuver around it. When street railways were first build in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, there wasn't much other traffic to contend with. By the 1940s, the situation had changed, hence the accelarated replacement of fixed track streetcars by diesel and electric busses (no rants here about National City Lines).
Where light rail is/can be successful, it is where it can be operated on a private right of way (side of road, median, or separate ROW). Unfortunately, in too many cases during the 1940s/50s, existing light rail medians were paved over for extra traffic lanes, dooming the cars (which were now "streetcars") to traffic tieups and replacemnt by rubber tired vehicles.
-- Ed Sachs
That's why I suggested Western Avenue: The big wide median between the two streets, which oddly both have two way traffic, would be a good place for a trolley to run unimpeded by auto traffic.
Mark
Western Ave was proposed for an N-S crosstown L in the 50's. The market is there but... money?
Do you have any hopes for the new circle line proposal being built, or do you see money prevent it from becoming a reality as well?
Mark
I have hopes that at least parts of it will happen. The re-opening of the "Paulina Connector" that connects the Blue Line to the Green Line (currently only for non-revenue movements) as a revenue link would be relatively inexpensive - I would think in the $25 million range. I would expect that to happen in conjuntion with the completion of the Douglas Branch rehab completion in 2006. The El connection between the Douglas Branch and the Orange Line will probably also happen, maybe by 2010, with the subway from North/Clyborn on the Red Line to Ashland/Lake on the Green Line being the most iffy part of it, since the most expensive part (by far). It's also one of the most useful parts, too, so we'll see. Delaying it, but building the rest would serve as an incentive for people to move to Bridgeport and the SW side from the NW side to commute easily to offices in the West Loop. So it could become a hot political topic, too.
The Circle Line would run along Ashland, which is a mile east of Western, so improved transit along Western would still be of use.
Not all of Western has the median you speak of - actually only from about 35th to about 55th on the South Side. That portion is part of the Boulevards System, most of which has wide medians or, in true Boulevard style, two strips dividing local from express traffic.
I have talked about (only with friends) the usefulness of running streetcars on those medians along the entire Boulevards system. Or at least along this route: Logan and Elston west to Kedzie, south to Palmer east to Sacramento south to Franklin, west to Central Park, through Garfield Park to Hamlin, south to 14th east to Douglas Park, from Douglas the Boulevards zigzag a bit SE until they hit Western, where they go south to Garfield (55th), then east to Washington Park, on the western edge of the Hyde Park neighborhood, and maybe past that along 59th to Jackson Park and/or the Museum of Science and Industry.
Here's a link to a small but decent map of the Boulevard system:
http://www.prairie.org/kiosk1/page5.asp
If implemented the way I described, it would connect to the O'Hare Blue Line, the Lake Street Green Line, the Congress Blue Line, the Orange Line, the Dan Ryan Red Line and the south side Green Line.
The biggest disadvantage to this now is that several of the areas it would travel through are high-crime areas, especially in the areas around Garfield Park and along Garfield/55th (two different areas despite the same name).
But the space exists, it just is up to whether or not the city wants to lose what it currently classifies as "Park space" (the medians) even though no one uses it as such (that I've ever seen).
some of us remember "The Boulevard Route" -- an early bus operation folded into CTA, but whose name remained on some of the buses into the 50's on f'rinstance Jeffrey "Boulevard" which although without median was a 'Park District' street and the original route of the bus was mainly on such streets. Drexel, Hyde Pk, Cornell Dr in Jackson Pk.
"The Boulevard Route" was a slogan of Chicago Motor Coach, which I believe became part of CTA in 1953. The CTA has contacted IRM about using our CMC bus for some sort of commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the folding of CMC into CTA, but since the bus isn't in great shape nothing has come of it yet.
Frank Hicks
CTA formally acquired and took over Chicago Motor Coach operations on October 1, 1952, five years to the day that CTA took over Chicago Surface Lines and Chicago Rapid Transit, October 1, 1947.
On the map:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/maps/historical/1999-summer-sub-rus.gif
i.e. when the Willy B was closed, a diamond-M Bay Parkway - Chambers St service is shown in addition to the Nassau St shuttle. Were these operated as separate services or as one through service Bay Parkway - Essex St?
Separate. (Always wondered why they didn't through route it).
How did the south segment turn at Chambers without interfering with the north segment? It wasn't relaying on the bridge leads, was it? (Are those tracks still in usable condition?)
Most of them laid up on those leads. They are in operable condition, because when I was in school car there was still a train that laid up way back near the old connection, and we rode on it and walked to the Canal St. (Centre) platform.
Between the two services, there wasn't so much traffic that there would be any significan congestion. Remember in the past, you had bridge trains, tunnel trains, the 15/J running through there and the 10/M terminating there.
When the bridge closed, the M between Bay Parkway & Chambers St was a rush hour service only; the M was 2 sections so the other ran from Marcy Av to Metro Av all times. The Chambers-Essex shuttle was not a extended & was a separate service.
I just received my RailDriver simulator hardware for Microsoft Train Simulator. (For info, see the RailDriver Web site.)
I haven't had too much time to play with it yet, but it's pretty cool. The controls let you run MSTS remotely from "real" handles. (Sorry, Stef, no R-9 simulator yet.) I have a beta version of the software, so there may still be a few bugs (I just found that I can't fully release the Acela Express brakes without a keyboard input.)
The first picture below is the unit (measures about 12" wide by 6" deep by 4-6" high). The push buttons below operate various options, such as display windows, switch settings, etc. The horn is especially cool.
The second picture below is my (cluttered) office, with RailDriver hooked to my laptop via USB cable. [On the right, you'll see the WCBS Portable Weather Center -- a microphone connected to a "Zephyr Xtreme Switchway" which goes into an ISDN circuit, allowing me to have studio-quality voice from afar. Yes, that's a Triple-A Tour Book holding up the microphone. But I digress.]
When I've done some more testing and experimenting, I'll report back. Gotta go now... AE is about to derail.........
What, no R-9 Simulator? Booooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seriously, I have to admit it looks good. I won't be operating R-9s, but I can at least take the Acela Express down the North East Corridor!
-Stef
If someone can find the stands, I already agreed to wire 'em up ... but try to find any. :(
I wrote to them, they don't have ANY plans at this time to make "subway style" controllers. And no plans to support BVE.
Very nice Todd. Does yours have a P-wire Ammeter?
Tell you what, H, I'll trade you my RailDriver for your R-44 console :-)
I'll need a hostler to replace it. Got any with working brake pipe lamps?
Yeah... let me run up to Seashore. I think there's one in the Parts Warehouse. They're filed right next to the tail pipe lamps.
Oh THAT'S a cold one. Next thing we'll be hearing is that you expect the P wire ammeter to tell the TRUTH. G'way, hoser! :)
Todd .. that is so cool!
(Your office that is :)
--Mark
I should have turned on the Swtichway. Many cool LEDs. And I should have stopped the simulator's train speed at 88. But I got carried away and let AE fly :-)
HEY Todd...care to give us a $$$$ amount on that piece of hardware?
Peace,
ANDEE
About $150. It can be bought on-line at the RailDriver Web site.
cool . . . thanks
Peace,
ANDEE
You can even hook it up the other way around so that it will run you model trains. Either with DCC or without.
Elias
Here's a link to an independent review.
I think you mixed up Stef with Selkirk. Stef is into the R-17's. Its Kevin who's into the arnines!
Jeffrey, we're ALL into AhNines (as we say at Seashore).
Well it seems those audits that we have been hearing so much about have found something 630 million somethings.Creative acounting at its best.
EVERYONE MUST VOTE NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm not laughing.
Did anyone see the post article that the MTA is paying the house chaplin $60,000 a year. The MTA claims that it is a small price to pay
For a point of refernce the NYPD and FDNY chaplin is not paid
How many other $60,000 "small prices" exist at the MTA
I don't know about the arrangement that the NYPD or FDNY has with its' Chaplains. I do know Rabbi Berkowitz. He's a very rare find in the TA. He's very personable and an accomplished public speaker. More than that, he cares. He's on call 24/7. His cell phone and pager are available to anyone who needs them. If he cannot be reached via the pager of cell phone, the person in need only need call the 'RTO Control Center' and they will locate him and he will return the call. Over the past years I've referred several employees (of all faiths) to him and he's reached out to each and every one of them. He doesn't punch a time clock but he doesn't watch one either.
Rabbi Berkowitz is paid $60,000. Based on a 40 hour week, thats about $28.84 per hour. So before you go Bug-F#@K over $60,000, think about what the TA is really getting for its buck. Moreover, what would the TA get for the $60,000 without Rabbi Berkowitz?
I don't know about the arrangement that the NYPD or FDNY has with its' Chaplains. I do know Rabbi Berkowitz. He's a very rare find in the TA. He's very personable and an accomplished public speaker. More than that, he cares. He's on call 24/7. His cell phone and pager are available to anyone who needs them. If he cannot be reached via the pager or cell phone, the person in need only need call the 'RTO Control Center' and they will locate him and he will return the call. Over the past years I've referred several employees (of all faiths) to him and he's reached out to each and every one of them. He doesn't punch a time clock but he doesn't watch one either.
Rabbi Berkowitz is paid $60,000. Based on a 40 hour week, thats about $28.84 per hour. So before you go Bug-F#@K over $60,000, think about what the TA is really getting for its buck. Moreover, what would the TA get for the $60,000 without Rabbi Berkowitz? Based on a current payroll of roughly 42,000 employees, that's roughly $1.40 per employee per year. I know that that $1.40 from my pocket is very well spent, knowing that Rabbi Berkowitz would be there to counsel me in my time of grief or other crisis I might need to face.
I am no expert on the economics of the Clergy. I'm quite sure, however, Rabbi Berkowitz could easily hook up with some upper middle class Synagog in the suburbs, preside over a few weddings and a few Bar Mitzvahs and do a hell of a lot better than $60,000 per year (incidently, he doesn't get a car for making his house calls). I think that the $60,000, spent on my behalf and that of my fellow employees is a very wise investment. I'm sure its cost have been recovered many times over in the years that he has served. Frankly, to be perfectly blunt - we've all heard your opinion about 'useless' station agents. I think you're way off base there. You're even further out into space with this argument.
Members of the Rabbinate generally hold impressive educational credentials. My Rabbi holds a doctorate in ministerial studies in addition to his required 4-year course of study with Hebrew Union College. In the business sector, a person with that much schooling would earn far more than $60,000/yr. I'd say the MTA is getting a good deal.
Interesting you should mention Rabbi Berkowitz at this time. Just before New Years my mother-in-law passed away. Although I am Jewish (obviously you can tell from my name) my in-laws are all Irish Catholic. My brother in law Patrick is a bus driver with NYC Transit. Although he isn't a shop stewart he is on of the most popular guys in the garage and is considered the garage's mayor. An awful lot of people from NYC Transit came to the wake on New Year's Eve and N.Year's Day. Imagine my surprise when a gemtleman with a Yarmulka showed up. It turned out to be Rabbi Berkowitz, he gave his condolences to the family and signed the guestbook. I thought that was very nice and the family appreciated it. I've been to many funerals, wakes, & Shivas of family members of police officers and I don't recall any time a chaplain showed up.
["I don't know about the arrangement that the NYPD or FDNY has with its' Chaplains. I do know Rabbi Berkowitz"]
I don't know about FD but I do know in the NYPD the chaplains have the rank of full Inspector and could technically give orders to anyone below that rank. I don't think they get Inspector's pay though which is above $115,000. The police surgeons are also Inspectors.
>>> It turned out to be Rabbi Berkowitz, he gave his condolences to the family and signed the guestbook. I thought that was very nice and the family appreciated it <<<
From what is being said about him, Rabbi Berkowitz he seems (in the spirit of ecumenicalism) like a saint. But in spite of how good this man is, it still seems strange that an employer, especially a public employer, would have a religious person on the payroll. It seems so paternalistic.
I know there have been military chaplains since the days of the American revolution, and I understand the need to bring the comforts of religion to men far from home facing death (particularly if you want them to continue facing death for low pay). And police departments as para-military organizations which emphasize the danger of the job (although there are several occupations statistically much more dangerous) when seeking pay increases take their cue from the military and have chaplains also. Fire departments wanting parity with police departments follow suit.
I certainly do not see the need for well paid transit workers to have an official paid religious advisor of any faith. I'm sorry if I sound anti religion. I would have no objection to a railfan clergyman who had a place in his heart for transit workers and was an honorary chaplain, but it should not be a full time paid position.
Tom
>>> It turned out to be Rabbi Berkowitz, he gave his condolences to the family and signed the guestbook. I thought that was very nice and the family appreciated it <<<
From what is being said about him, Rabbi Berkowitz he seems (in the spirit of ecumenicalism) like a saint. But in spite of how good this man is, it still seems strange that an employer, especially a public employer, would have a religious person on the payroll. It seems so paternalistic.
I know there have been military chaplains since the days of the American revolution, and I understand the need to bring the comforts of religion to men far from home facing death (particularly if you want them to continue facing death for low pay). And police departments as para-military organizations which emphasize the danger of the job (although there are several occupations statistically much more dangerous) when seeking pay increases take their cue from the military and have chaplains also. Fire departments wanting parity with police departments follow suit.
I certainly do not see the need for well paid transit workers to have an official paid religious advisor of any faith. I'm sorry if I sound anti religion. I would have no objection to a railfan clergyman who had a place in his heart for transit workers and was an honorary chaplain, but it should not be a full time paid position.
Tom
The NYPD and FDNY chaplins are not paid
There is no reason the MTA chaplin should be.
If there is a $60,000 chaplin employed by the MTA how many other for a lack of a better term unneeded administrative personel is there.
That is the real issue, The paid chaplin is the tip of the iceburg.
$60k is an outragious salary for a man of the cloth
Just curious. Where did you find out that the NYPD & FD Chaplains are not paid? I was under the impression that NYPD Chaplains were paid, however I don't know for sure and you may very well be right. The police dept has a Rabbi, a Catholic Priest, a Muslim clergyman, a few ministers and perhaps more. They perform valuable functions. The dept has psychological services unit and an early intervention unit that deals with suicidal tendencies. I would think the chaplain's unit supplements those units. The Jewish Chaplain Rabbi Cass presides over all the meetings and functions of the Shomrim Society of the NYPD. He has an office in police headquarters and twice in my career the Chaplain's Unit got me the day off on Yom Kippur when it was denied me on the precinct level.
If the police chaplains do not get paid, they still get perks. They have Inspector Rank (5 ranks over Police Officer), have a shield (not auxilliary but a real shield) and a uniform. Although I'm not knocking transit workers in any way, I have the utmost respect for them, what perks would a transit chaplain get other than possibly free fares? There is no auxilliary bus drivers or motorman (not counting that guy that got locked up last week for stealing motorman's uniforms)
By the way, I would assume that before they hired transit chaplains for $60,000 they did a big study on it (probably the study cost a lot more than $60,000) and the experts deemed it beneficial.
The post article (not the most repretiable source) mentioned that both FDNY and NYPD chaplins are not paid.
My point is more that the MTA has plenty of administrative staffers that are on salary that provide little bennifit to the operations of the system
Granted I beleive the chaplin is necessisary, but at what cost. And $60k for a rabbi, It is not long before the catholics want a preist on staff and musulms want a cleric on staff. Is paying one person a large salary the right way to go
The post article also mentioned that the rabbi is collecting a salary as a staff chaplin for another organization.
Any why don't you say anything about the millions of dollars spent on protecting an ex-mayor and his new girlfriend. You complain about a paltry $60,000 for a MTA champlain, yet the NYPD spends 10 times more than that on Guiliani's "bodyguards".
Like I said the $60 k is the tip of the iceburg of other mis-spending of the publics money.
Our fair ex-mayor should be paying for his own security.
Chances are that the MTA has other people employed on staff that do not bennifit the riding public or the average MTA staffer. That is the real problem
$60k is peanuts for the MTA. But 50 people making $60k that are not entirely needed is a real problem
The Board of ed has identified nearly 3000 positions which are no longer needed. How many heads are thier outside the front line operators that are no longer needed.
>>> $60k is an outragious salary for a man of the cloth <<<
Episcopalians excepted. :-)
Tom
Tom: what is ' Episcopalians excepted?' ECUSA was the first to provide on-site assistance when the World Trade Center collapsed.
I do not agree with the Newark Diocese or former Bishop Spongs 'mentalities' but I have attented and served Communion and read the lessons every Sunday since 1989. I did try to volunteer for emergency communications duty for 911 but was unable to make contacts...started TA just days later. CI Peter
["$60k is an outragious salary for a man of the cloth"]
Tell that to Jerry Falwell, Reverend Ike, Pat Robinson, Jimmy (how much for a lay, miss?)Swaggart, Billy (Thank G-d I'm Gentile)Graham, Jesse (Hymietown) Jackson, Al (Tawana Brawley) Sharpton, Sun Yung Moon, etc, etc, etc. They all would probably also think $60,000 is outrageous, outrageously low!!!
How about father judge. Hey if the MTA employees what a highe paid chaplin pay it out of thier union dues not he riding publics pocket
How much doe catholic preists make. Nowhere near 60k
How much doe catholic preists make. Nowhere near 60k
That's not a good justification for paying other clergy people less.
How much doe catholic preists make. Nowhere near 60k
Well, *I* haven't been paid in 20 years, but then, I haven't paid any taxes on it either.
Most are employees of a diocese (which is why the church has so much troubles over this sex stuff) and so do not get paid very much, or are members of a religious order and get paid nothing.
Some are employed by a university, a hospital, or other institution, and then get paid the going rates for that institution. In the case of members of our community, it is not the priest who gets to keep the money, but the monastery.
Elias
Not to mention a long list of similar parasites...
Train dude the fair rabbi(which I am sure is a wonderful man) also has similar staff positions at other agencies(mentioned in the article). And I am sure he finds plenty of time to predide over many a bar mitzvahs and weddings which generaly take place on the weekend. His earnings potentall is not the issue. the issue is why should the MTA pay for a staff chaplin(which does not mean he punches the clock 40 hrs a week, even if he did there is not 40hrs of work for him to do) When the NYPD and FDNY have volunteers. Father Judge gave his life for the NYPD. I would like to think that the fair rabbi would still be so helpful without the salary. After all he became a rabbi to be a messenger to god not to pull down a nice salary
His paid position is just the tip of the iceburg for other over endulgences by the MTA which cost the riding public. The MTA mission is to move people not employ clergyman which may be in violation of the separation of church and state
After all he became a rabbi to be a messenger to god not to pull down a nice salary
The man is entitled to make a living. Do you think Rabbis affiliated with temples get manna from heaven?
--Mark
Let them eat kiddush cake! (Chas v'shalom.)
Ha'motzi
Oy Vey! LOL!
which may be in violation of the separation of church and state
not hardly. The only stipulation is that the Government may not make any law respective to any religion.
There is a chaplain at the door of congress. And he *is* paid, and he is paid by the public purse.
Our coins and currency still read "In God we Trust."
There is nothing in our laws that says we must trash religion.
Indeed, the Opposide is true: We MAY NOT do anything to trash religion.
I wish you would take a look at English History, and see the abuses between church and state, *then* you would know what the founding fathers had in mind when they esablished a separation between church and state.
ie.. the crown appointing or approving bishops and or abbots, the king rceiving his crown from the bishop as a devine right, the separate court systems for 'religious' infractions and for 'civil' or 'criminal' infractions (ie the Spanish Inqusition comes to mind).
Before you speak of 'church' and 'state' you ought to at least *know* what the issues are.
And as I have said, this rabbi may have other duties that the other chaplains did not have.
Elias
[There is a chaplain at the door of Congress. And he *is* paid, and he is paid by the public purse.]
How much is the Congressional chaplain paid? How much are the armed forces chaplains paid? If those amounts exceed zero, should there be a huge outcry?
Millitary Chaplains are Millitary Officers drawing regular officer's pay.
They have millitary duties.
Where does all of this anti-religious bias come from? *That* is truly unamerican!
Elias
I can tell ya ... people have had a snootful of the Swaggarts, the Falwells, and the TV gasbags and they believe that God actually ENDORSES these ... ummm ... ummm ... when they see our own outdoing the Taliban with "faith-based edumication" ... a lot of folks lose it. But then again, refer to the book of Revelation - this is to be expected. :(
>>> Millitary Chaplains are Millitary Officers drawing regular officer's pay. They have millitary duties <<<
Although military chaplains are officers and draw regular pay, not withstanding the scene from the movie "Patton" where the general orders the chaplain to improve the weather conditions, they do not have military duties, since they are non-combatants who do not even receive training on how to use a weapon. Their chain of command is to the Chief Chaplain of their branch of service, not to local commanders. Their purpose is to look out for the welfare and spiritual well being of military personnel. In this they are similar to medical corp personnel. The main reason they are members of the military services is so they will have the protections of the Geneva Convention in the event of capture during wartime.
Tom
Their purpose is to look out for the welfare and spiritual well being of military personnel. In this they are similar to medical corp personnel. The main reason they are members of the military services is so they will have the protections of the Geneva Convention in the event of capture during wartime.
Those are Millitary Duties. The Millitrary is an orginazation of PEOPLE, and people have many spirityal, social, and emotional needs that must be met to keep them in a prime condition that will meet the millitaries expectations of them.
Likewise, a large labor intensive orginization such as the MTA has people issues to deal with. If the MTA were better at dealing with these people issues, there would not be so much rancor relating to contract negotiations and discipline issues. Since poeple *do* have 'people-issues' and one of the most sailent of these (like it or not) is a person's spiritual dimension, it makes sense to hire a practitioner well versed in this dimension. He is not prothlytising his religion (in cas you didn't notice somewhere along your life, Jews unlike Christians or Moslems do not do this), it is (as we have been told), dealing with the humnan needs of this orginization.
End of article.
>>> He is not prothlytising his religion (in cas you didn't notice somewhere along your life, Jews unlike Christians or Moslems do not do this), it is (as we have been told), dealing with the humnan needs of this orginization. <<<
If the purpose of the chaplain is to deal with the human needs of the organization, he should have a degree in psychology rather than religion. As I mentioned in another post, it is shallow religion indeed that must look to a fellow employee for succor in the time of need rather than one's own minister.
OTOH, if his job is to turn the anger of the next of kin of those killed or maimed by MTA negligence away from a lawsuit, then he is preforming the traditional duties of the clergy as the dispenser of the opiate of the masses, and probably is earning his pay.
Tom
Wow ... that's some cold stuff there. Call me superstitious, but I *like* the idea of a chaplain so long as their purpose is not to "convert" people, I'm Catholic myself and although I have a parish priest (and had when I lived in the city too) none of them could relate to working the subway (and it would hold true in numerous other large organizations doing a unique thing such as the military) ...
Back in my day, TA employees had Father Cosgrove, a priest from a midtown parish who was as foamy as any hardcore subtalker. He wasn't an "official chaplain" but he'd often ride the subways and talk to conductors and motormen and women who wanted to. He was also known to get some "unauthorized handle time" and he was GOOD at it. I probably talked to him without knowing who he was, we'd often get priests on the trains who would chat it up, dispense confession and other Catholic rites to those so inclined. There were Rebbis and other ministers as well who tended to their own.
I guess times have changed, certainly Father Cosgrove would not be allowed to spend his free time riding the subways and hanging out with a cab door open, or even perhaps OPERATING. Times have seemingly become more impersonal since, so I can see the value in retaining someone on staff who could relate to the folks in operation. And in many large operations (such as the military, police, fire, EMS, etc) it really helps to have someone who actually understands available when you're NOT in a position to take it up with your own.
I never really went for shrinks myself - many of them are more screwed up than the patients they treat (most Psych majors I knew over the years got into it because they were trying to figure out why THEY were so screwed up) ... but if an organization is going to hire shrinks for agnostics, then it's only fair that those of us who don't believe in shrinks can have similar to our own values.
Pity the realities don't allow voluntary, unpaid "support" but if I was in a situation where I'd just greased someone who "jumped or fell" in front of MY train, I don't think I'd make it to getting home, calling the local priest (who has many other things to deal with since the Priesthood ain't exactly swimming with enough people to carry out all the duties, and what with the "scandals" lately [why is it that priests have been singled out when perverts know no specific religious boundaries from my own experiences]) and hoping to get squeezed in somewhere. If a Mullah had experience with people who have run over innocent people with their trains, I'd be just as happy in such a situation ... it is THESE things for which these "counselors" exist, same for police and firefighters and EMS people where they are faced with death or other emotional traumas where going to the "company shrink" just won't do ...
I really don't have a problem with ANY of this - we're paying people in the TA (many, many more) to shuffle papers around and shuffle papers until they decay. If a "chaplain" is a waste of money, I'm sure we can find many larger ones.
My only regret is that I never met Father Cosgrove "formally" if in fact I did (and I suspect from the pictures I saw that he DID ride my train a few times) ... for those who believe in a "faith," I see this as a good thing. And for those who see religion as an opiate, let us open our books and count the shrinks. :)
... since they are non-combatants who do not even receive training on how to use a weapon ...
Is that true today and once wasn't, or was it once true and isn't today? I have a shirttail cousin who is an Air Force chaplain (still on active duty, served in Viet Nam at the end of the war when he was fresh out of seminary) and he received firearms training and was issued a sidearm when he was over there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> I have a shirttail cousin who is an Air Force chaplain (still on active duty, served in Viet Nam at the end of the war when he was fresh out of seminary) and he received firearms training and was issued a sidearm when he was over there. <<<
My information was based on the U.S. Army's recruiting information for chaplains which specifically states no weapons training. The Air Force chaplain recruiting page gives no information about weapons training, but it is interesting to note that Air Force enlisted recruits have a six week basic course in which weapons are mentioned in only one week (basic marksmanship). The twelve week officer training curriculum has no mention of individual weapons training. The missions of the Air Force and Army are such that an Air Force chaplain has little likelihood to be in a combat situation. In any case, a pistol would be considered a personal defense weapon rather than a combat weapon.
Tom
There is a chaplain at the door of congress. And he *is* paid, and he is paid by the public purse.
I find it offensive that sessions of Congress begin with a prayer.
Our coins and currency still read "In God we Trust."
I think this should be abolished. When the motto of the United States was changed in the 1950s, the enemy was decried for being godless. If anything, now, it is the opposite, and we must go back to E Pluribus Unum, because that is the opposite of the collective they have going over there.
That having been said, I do not find the appointment of a chaplain by a government agency to be an anathema to the First Amendment.
Why? Didn't the first Congress have a chaplain? If our founding fathers intended it to be so, how do you suggest that it's wrong?
>>> If our founding fathers intended it to be so, how do you suggest that it's wrong? <<<
Possibly the same way one no longer believes slavery is allowable, or that only men should vote.
Tom
I have faith that we'll be back to that "kinder, gentler America" before two years is up. Look at how much they got done in just ONE day of congress so far ... and yes, "family values" means barefoot, pregnant and home. We've already heard Trent Lott's views on slavery, so yeah, interesting times ahead. Just call people "liberals" and tell the tribunal you were only following orders.
Oh, what's the point? Right up until Dresden was reduced to a crater, the Germans kept wondering why the Auslanders hated them so much. :(
Yes and let's not forget that if it were left to the dumocrats, the civil rights act of 1964 would only be known from history lessons. Dumocrats like Al Gore's father and Sen. Byrd are great examples of your kinder and gentler party. Seems the liberal media likes to pick its spots. they never called clinton to task when he called one of the Senates truely great racists, "his Mentor".
Absolutely true ... I'd hope you know by now that I think BOTH major political parties are full of SHIRT ... but now it's the repubs that are showing themselves to be louts. Equal opportunity I s'pose. But I do sit in awe of the knuckle-dragging tendencies of the party in power now. Not that I wasn't in awe when it was the other guys' turn. But geez ... can't we do something BETTER? Smarter? :(
Say what you will about "clinton" ... at least he could PRONOUNCE "noo-clee-ar" ... whatever happened to getting government off the backs of the people and into their bedrooms? Oh. Here we go again. :)
Don't mind me, I'm just honked off that we have a "uniter, not a divider" and seeing the degree of rancor with people calling others "liberals" and such. But I suppose kicking each OTHER'S ass is preferable to kicking Saddam's. After all, we'se met the enemy and he is *US* ... (walks away muttering and shaking head)
"Say what you will about "clinton" ... at least he could PRONOUNCE "noo-clee-ar""
The first time I heard it pronounced as NU-CU-LAR was in the movie "The China Syndrome", Michael Douglas made the same 'error' several times. But Michael Douglas sleeps with Catherine Zeta Jones while Bill sleeps with hilly and monica. So even if he mispronounces a word here or there, I'd say Michael Douglas is still smarter the Slick Willy.
Dude is right, Cathy would be a far better catch than Hillary or Monica. And that bit with the cigar -- Yecch!!!
John, you, too, are obviously a man with excellent taste.
So much for your New Year's resolution. :)
It was IKE (Eisenhower) who first mispronounced NUCLEAR (check a dictionary for proper pronouncement if you doubt it) and ONLY republicans seem to have suffered the edumication difficulties that result in dyslexic pronunciation of the word. Not that we don't have better things to talk about here, but it shows the reason WHY republicans keep complaining about the edumication system. The REST of us were actually paying attention in class. Sorry guy, but this dittohead nonsense getting spewed here is really raising the bile level.
Train Dude, I suggest you reread Pig's post. He didn't say having a chaplain is wrong. He actually agreed with you and sees nothing wrong with a chaplain when he said "...I do not find the appointment of a chaplain by a government agency to be an anathema to the First Amendment."
He did say that he felt that the opening of a congessional session with a prayer was contrary to the principle of seperation of Church & state (in other words). I was referring to that portion of his post.
And Pigs, like a goodly portion of the "great unwashed", constantly mis-reads that part of the First Amendment.
It refers to "an establishment of religion". By "an establshement", it specifically refers to an organized church/religion, such as the Church of England, the Roman Catholic Church, The Lutheran Church, the Jewish faith, Islam, or any other formal religions.
It does not mean that chaplins, religious mottos (In God we Trust), are prohibited. It also does not mean that the Ten Commandments can't be posted in a public park, although the ACLU thinks otherwise. (they are in the goodly portion of the "great unwashed".)
The modern understanding of "freedom OF religion" and "freedom FROM religion" was established by our founding fathers VERY clearly. I made mention of some of the premise here:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=431500
Regardless of how we twist the politics, students will STILL pray before a math test in school. :)
I take great offense to being referred to as "The Great Unwashed." The term "unwashed" is obviously intended to be used in a condescending fashion.
Holding prayers as part of a session of the Congress of the United States, is an establishment of religion, how else can you describe the government sanctioning of a prayer? Similarly, as a religious symbol, the erection of a likeness of the Ten Commandments in a public park is also the same establishment of religion.
From au.org:
MYTH: Separation of church and state is not in the U.S. Constitution.
FACT: It is true that the literal phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution, but that does not mean the concept isn't there. The First Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...."
What does that mean? A little history is helpful: In an 1802 letter to the Danbury (Conn.) Baptist Association, Thomas Jefferson, then president, declared that the American people through the First Amendment had erected a "wall of separation between church and state." (Colonial religious liberty pioneer Roger Williams used a similar phrase 150 years earlier.)
Jefferson, however, was not the only leading figure of the post-revolutionary period to use the term separation. James Madison, considered to be the Father of the Constitution, said in an 1819 letter, "[T]he number, the industry and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church and state." In an earlier, undated essay (probably early 1800s), Madison wrote, "Strongly guarded...is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States."
As eminent church-state scholar Leo Pfeffer notes in his book, Church, State and Freedom, "It is true, of course, that the phrase 'separation of church and state' does not appear in the Constitution. But it was inevitable that some convenient term should come into existence to verbalize a principle so clearly and widely held by the American people....[T]he right to a fair trial is generally accepted to be a constitutional principle; yet the term 'fair trial' is not found in the Constitution. To bring the point even closer home, who would deny that 'religious liberty' is a constitutional principle? Yet that phrase too is not in the Constitution. The universal acceptance which all these terms, including 'separation of church and state,' have received in America would seem to confirm rather than disparage their reality as basic American democratic principles."
Thus, it is entirely appropriate to speak of the "constitutional principle of church-state separation" since that phrase summarizes [sic] what the First Amendment's religion clauses do-they separate church and state.
http://www.au.org/myths.htm
The following is really the quote I was looking for:
MYTH: The First Amendment's religion clauses were intended only to prevent the establishment of a national church.
FACT: If all the framers wanted to do was ban a national church, they had plenty of opportunities to state exactly that in the First Amendment. In fact, an early draft of the First Amendment read in part, "The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief, nor shall any national religion be established...." This draft was rejected. Following extensive debate, the language found in the First Amendment today was settled on.
The historical record indicates that the framers wanted the First Amendment to ban not only establishment of a single church but also "multiple establishments," that is, a system by which the government funds many religions on an equal basis.
A good overview of the development of the language of the First Amendment is found in scholar John M. Swomley's 1987 book Religious Liberty and the Secular State. Swomley shows that during the House of Representatives' debate on the language of the religion clauses, members specifically rejected a version reading, "Congress shall make no law establishing any particular denomination in preference to another...." The founders wanted to bar all religious establishments; they left no room for "non-preferentialism," the view touted by today's accommodationists that government can aid religion as long as it assists all religions equally. (The Senate likewise rejected three versions of the First Amendment that would have permitted non-preferential support for religion.)
Any kind of government-sponsored prayer is a support of religion, there is no way every person can be accommodated by a prayer, particularly since there are those who do not believe in Christian-style prayer, even people who can be considered religious. Besides, as the above passage indicates, the First Congress fully intended to disallow equal accommodation, which a non-denominational prayer would attempt achieve. I have never heard whatever prayer the Congressional chaplain offers, so I cannot comment on how specifically it violates the separation of church and state.
Now for your other example, placing the Ten Commandments in a public park is a blatant sponsorship of one religion over another, or actually, two. The Ten Commandments are also no doubt offensive to some people who are not Jewish of Christian, for example, the first three commandments which refer specifically to the Judeo-Christian God, that he is the only god and that his name shall not be taken in vain. This is in direct conflict with any religion which supports multiple gods, so a first person statement attributed to one individual such as "Behold, I am your lord, thy god" and "You shall have no other gods but me" are incompatible.
Maybe you can make the argument that "God" can be an allegorical reference to any force which created the universe and which maintains its existence, but the Ten Commandments are not in any way a non-specific religious device.
[The MTA mission is to move people not employ clergyman which may be in violation of the separation of church and state.]
There is no violation. MTA is not "establishing" religion but rather accommodating it. IIRC from the Transit employee directory, the Office of the Chaplain reports to the Medical Services Unit (reflecting its role in employees' total well-being) AND includes Catholic, Protestant, and Muslim chaplains as well as Rabbi Berkowitz.
BTW, Amendment I to the U.S. Constitution states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...." In other words, Congress does not have the right to "establish" (i.e. make official) or "disestablish" (i.e. ban) any specific faith system.
Note that (1) there is no prohibition on accommodating religion in a manner that respects the rights of all, and (2) the MTA is not Congress.
Specifically:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the
freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a
redress of grievances. "
First coined by the 17th century Baptist leader Roger Williams who, in 1636, founded Rhode Island, the phrase "separation of
church and state" was used by both Thomas Jefferson and James Madison (the father of the Constitution), to describe the
meaning of the Constitution's religion clauses. The religion clauses provide for the "free exercise" of religion and prohibit the
government from "establishing" religion by favoring one religion over another or favoring religion over non-religion. The U.S.
Supreme Court, the ultimate arbiter of the Constitution's meaning, first utilized the phrase in the 1878 case of Reynolds v.
United States, stating that Jefferson's term 'wall of separation between church and state' "may be accepted almost as an
authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the [First] Amendment."
The Court has repeatedly held that "separation of church and state" is the constitutional cornerstone of religious liberty. In the
1947 case of Everson v. Board of Education, Justice Hugo Black, in writing for the majority, stated: "In the words of
Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion was intended to erect a wall of separation between church and state."
In defining what is meant by the establishment of religion, Justice Black wrote, "Neither a state nor the Federal Government
can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another.... No
tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or
whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion.... The First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between
church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach."
Over the years the Court has developed and applied what has become known as the "Lemon Test" to decide Establishment
Clause cases. The Lemon Test, codified in the Court's 1971 Lemon v. Kurtzman, is a three-pronged inquiry: 1) Does the
challenged legislation or activity have a legitimate secular purpose?; 2) Does the legislation or activity have a primary effect that
neither advances nor inhibits religion? and 3) Does the legislation or activity excessively entangle government with religion?
Although individual Justices of the Court have, on various occasions, expressed dissatisfaction with this standard of review, the
Lemon Test has not yet been replaced.
However ... this may change ...
http://theonion.com/onion3847/bill_of_rights.html
Bill Of Rights Pared Down To A Manageable Six
SATIRE
WASHINGTON, DC--Flanked by key members of Congress and his administration, President Bush approved Monday a streamlined version of the Bill of Rights that pares its 10 original amendments down to a "tight, no-nonsense" six.
A Republican initiative that went unopposed by congressional Democrats, the revised Bill of Rights provides citizens with a "more manageable" set of privacy and due-process rights by eliminating four amendments and condensing and/or restructuring five others. The Second Amendment, which protects the right to keep and bear arms, was the only article left unchanged.
Calling the historic reduction "a victory for America," Bush promised that the new document would do away with "bureaucratic impediments to the flourishing of democracy at home and abroad."
"It is high time we reaffirmed our commitment to this enduring symbol of American ideals," Bush said. "By making the Bill of Rights a tool for progress instead of a hindrance to freedom, we honor the true spirit of our nation's forefathers."
The Fourth Amendment, which long protected citizens' homes against unreasonable search and seizure, was among the eliminated amendments. Also stricken was the Ninth Amendment, which stated that the enumeration of certain Constitutional rights does not result in the abrogation of rights not mentioned.
"Quite honestly, I could never get my head around what the Ninth Amendment meant anyway," said outgoing House Majority Leader Dick Armey (R-TX), one of the leading advocates of the revised Bill of Rights. "So goodbye to that one."
Amendments V through VII, which guaranteed the right to legal counsel in criminal cases, and guarded against double jeopardy, testifying against oneself, biased juries, and drawn-out trials, have been condensed into Super-Amendment V: The One About Trials.
Attorney General John Ashcroft hailed the slimmed-down Bill of Rights as "a positive step."
"Go up to the average citizen and ask them what's in the Bill of Rights," Ashcroft said. "Chances are, they'll have only a vague notion. They just know it's a set of rules put in place to protect their individual freedoms from government intrusion, and they assume that's a good thing."
Ashcroft responded sharply to critics who charge that the Bill of Rights no longer safeguards certain basic, inalienable rights.
"We're not taking away personal rights; we're increasing personal security," Ashcroft said. "By allowing for greater government control over the particulars of individual liberties, the Bill of Rights will now offer expanded personal freedoms whenever they are deemed appropriate and unobtrusive to the activities necessary to effective operation of the federal government."
Ashcroft added that, thanks to several key additions, the Bill of Rights now offers protections that were previously lacking, including the right to be protected by soldiers quartered in one's home (Amendment III), the guarantee that activities not specifically delegated to the states and people will be carried out by the federal government (Amendment VI), and freedom of Judeo-Christianity and non-combative speech (Amendment I).
According to U.S. Sen. Larry Craig (R-ID), the original Bill of Rights, though well-intentioned, was "seriously outdated."
"The United States is a different place than it was back in 1791," Craig said. "As visionary as they were, the framers of the Constitution never could have foreseen, for example, that our government would one day need to jail someone indefinitely without judicial review. There was no such thing as suspicious Middle Eastern immigrants back then."
Ashcroft noted that recent FBI efforts to conduct investigations into "unusual activities" were severely hampered by the old Fourth Amendment.
"The Bill of Rights was written more than 200 years ago, long before anyone could even fathom the existence of wiretapping technology or surveillance cameras," Ashcroft said. "Yet through a bizarre fluke, it was still somehow worded in such a way as to restrict use of these devices. Clearly, it had to go before it could do more serious damage in the future."
The president agreed.
"Any machine, no matter how well-built, periodically needs a tune-up to keep it in good working order," Bush said. "Now that we have the bugs worked out of the ol' Constitution, she'll be purring like a kitten when Congress reconvenes in January--just in time to work on a new round of counterterrorism legislation."
"Ten was just too much of a handful," Bush added. "Six civil liberties
are more than enough."
To make it topical, everyone has the right to pray that the train will MOVE. There ... that should do it.
It ain't LOVE if they gotta PAY you.
For one thing I agree with Train Dude than voice(I love MVM's and let's dump ALL station agents out on the street.)ofreason's attitude.
The chalpain on the MTA payroll, is a wonderful idea for any employee who needs his services in time of need. By example, how will a T/O seek for guidance when he/she witnesses a depressed person, being a 12-9 on the roadbed? How will the conductor deal with the stress of people holding doors, making his train late (and possibly messing up his lunch period time.)? How will the station agent deal with the stress of a long line during rush hour, and all the customers have are big bills and there's no change in the booth? Working for NYCT is one of the most stressful jobs (the T/O's at the top of the list, praying that no one gets too close to the platform).
So in this case $60,000 is well spent if it helps improves the lives of transit workers.
There are hundreds of churches and synagogs that provide the same services for free. The TA could find plenty of men of the cross to help out it's workers
IF the FDNY and NYPD don't pay and have the services available why does the MTA need to pay. Looks like a sweetheart deal to me
"The TA could find plenty of *men of the cross* to help out it's workers"
Don't you mean "Clergymen"?
After all, theres only one religion that symbolizes itself with a cross, and a large percentage of NYers are not of that religion.
There are hundreds of churches and synagogs that provide the same services for free.
Oh really? And just how do their clergy pay their bills? Miracles? No, the clergy may not charge per se for their services, but they are dependent on a salary from the budget of the religious institution with which they are affiliated, and that money has to come from somewhere, be it synagogue dues, church offerings, or whatever.
No, most clergy aren't rich, but I would not deny them a comfortable living if they do their job well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
voiceofreason has no reasoning. That's why he's #1 in my killfile, which I reserve only for stupid or constatly irritating posters.
If you are truely the voice of reason then perhaps you are looking at the tip of the wrong iceburg. Why not start with the US Armed Forces. I know that the US Armed forces has more than one chaplain on its payroll. Are you about to tell me that the US military does not pay these men officer's wages?
When was the last time you went to a hospital and didn;t see a chapel and a 'grief counselor' on staff. Since medicare & medicade underwrites much of hospital costs, and the cost of maintaining a chapel is figured into the cost of a hospital, is this not also a waste of money?
Do you fly. Every major airport in the US offers chapel services - some offer seperate facilities for different religions. The cost is underwritten, indirectly by the airlines in the form of airport user fees. Since the airlines are so heavily subsidized by federal and local monies. Does this not bother you?
You seem to have set yourself up as a one man committee to determine what people are necessary and which we can do without. Are you really that smart? How about inviting me to your place of business and I'll bet I could trim some fat, too. Then again, before WWII one world leader also thought he had the right to deem people unnecessary. I think I'll take a pass.
Having Chaplin's available for counseling is a perk. Public employees get virtually no perks, compared with the private sector, and this attitude is why. Private businesses seem to have decided that in many cases perks are cost effective -- the payoff extra work above the minimum and positive attitude is worth the cost. There is a lesson there.
What is it with these posters? TA work can be dangerous work and it was my partners Signal Maintainance buddy that was struck and killed by a trainset. I received a fourth party message on my answering machine that someone I knew doing roof repairs on a governmental site
had his jacket sleeve caught by ventilation machinery and was pulled in to die of lethal injuries. This stupid contract provides more 'mental patient benefits'....I really needed someone of Faith to hold my hand and talk to me. TA can use a lot more Chaplains of any religious denomination....the position requires degrees in social sciences and other areas of help to others. FDNY and NYPD has had the best Chaplains.....NYCTA has gotz. Vote NO!!! CI Peter
>>> I really needed someone of Faith to hold my hand and talk to me. TA can use a lot more Chaplains of any religious denomination. <<<
What I do not understand is why that person should be a fellow employee of the MTA rather than you own pastor/minister/priest/rabbi/iman. It sounds like pretty shallow religion to me.
Tom
"What I do not understand is why that person should be a fellow employee of the MTA rather than you own pastor/minister/priest/rabbi/iman. It sounds like pretty shallow religion to me."
You're addressing foamers here. I thought railroads were as much of a religion here as football is in Texas.
:0)
Steve, that was a wonderful response to the Voice of Treason
Steve, that was a wonderful response to the Voice of Treason
That's a very good play on words.
I'm not in New York, so I cannot know all of the details, but having a chaplain on staff is good business, and if he has other duties, (which he may, I do not know) then you are truly barking up the wrong tree.
But I will tell you this. I help to run a small rural voulnteer ambulance service, and I have much difficulty finding good people to vounterer: I need to tell you that *PEOPLE* are a comanies most valuable asset. And you need a chaplain who understands not only your spirituality, but the issues faced in work, someone who has more understanding of these issues than your parish pastor. (If you have one).
And *everyone* even athiests have a spiritual inner person, an inner person who needs to be asisted, comforted, and guided from time to time.
Today I held a dead baby in my arms. Sure, its all part of my job, and as soon as I got home, I went to talk to the Abbot.
On the subway you see the inner belly of the beast, be he live or be he dead. You do not know how much it means to have someone come up to you and to comfort or just listen to you. It would cost a heck of a lot more for the TA to hire these kinds of people: yet it is something that needs to be done, because people are your most valuable assets.
Elias
Amen ... and I hope you've come to a greater understanding of what you faced today and are a little more comfortable that you did all you possibly could. My sympathies, bro ...
I have used this transit system all my life, although only for 30 years (only the old school such as Fred, Bob, Mr. "Newkirk" and others here have used this system longer than I have.), yet while I can comnplain such waste and mismanagement at 370 Jay Street, I would NEVER question money spent that helps make a better transit system.
Mr. noreasonhehasavoicehere has gathered the hatred and wrath of those subtalkers who work directly for NYCT for his stupid and unnecessary remarks (especiall Train Dude, which I stand corrected here now that he is a manager and not a T/O as I thought, my apologies here) about why they should not pay a $60,000 salary to a chaplain who teaches prayer to all faiths not just as a "man of the cross" as that person thinks. The chaplain helps all people of faiths, not just Catholics. Just like he spews venom about why NYCT should get rid of all Station agents, but says nothing about security issues in stations (can you go to a MVM and tell the machine to call police if there are no working phones around?) We as subtalkers and all the hard working and dedicated employees at NYCT deserve better than that trash about patronage in the services of a chaplain. Perhaps he should take the next T/O exam this May and find out how stressful a job is being a T/O, who knows, he might need the services of one, its there.
A reminder last November, a man at the 5th Ave/60th Street station on the BMT line, went to the roadbed and, in the eyes of an R train operator, pulled out a gun and killed himself. I would imagine that the T/O was grateful that he or she sought the advice and prayer of a chaplain if (s)he did.
I was at Main Street the morning a conductor had to be told that her trackworker husband had been electrocuted when he tripped and landed on the third rail. She had just reported to work with her 10 year old daughter, as she did every morning, to await her husband's arrival (he worked midnights and picked up his stepdaughter at Main St. to take her to school while his wife went to work). I had just signed in at Main Street when the Rabbi arrived to console the woman. Having witnessed that gut-wrenching scene that morning made me realize that the chaplain is worth every penny of his salary.
>>> How will the conductor deal with the stress of people holding doors, making his train late (and possibly messing up his lunch period time.)? How will the station agent deal with the stress of a long line during rush hour, and all the customers have are big bills and there's no change in the booth? <<<
Wow, I didn't realize chaplains were on hand to intervene in such major crises. :-)
Tom
What's his first name? I think that's my old Rabbi...the one who actually made me enjoy going to shul.
-Hank
"What's his first name?"
Harry T. Currnt TA phone book lists him as Crisis Intervention Coordinator under the Occupational Health Services Division of Human Resources. His business card (a couple of years old) reads "Coordinator, Office of the Chaplain."
The minister of the little Church I attend in Hope, New Jersey, has two college degrees and bitches about the 30K + salary despite the fact that he is a financial advisor of some sort with megabucks. He chased out the congregation....I counted thirty Sunday alms envelope boxes....thirty families making support. Guy is never around when needed.
To me, it does not matter whether it's a priest, a rabbi, a minister or an imam. To have someone present in times of need....sixty thousand a year is a bargain. What TA needs to recognise is that there are a lot of people who care about the work they do and something unfortunate happens, they need an immediate friend and not psycological counseling. CI Peter
Okay, here comes the obvious question:
Is the $630 million REALLY a surplus? Or is it just a SMALLER-THAN-EXPECTED DEFICIT? (Not that the politicians or Straphangers could ever tell the difference.)
Maybe we all should wait for some details to come out before jumping all over this.
Please cite a source. Last I heard, $630 million was the expected NYCT deficit for 2003, not a "surplus" for 2002. The only place I've read about a $630 million surplus is HERE, a few days ago.
And last I heard, the audit was about to start and was expected to take several months. That was about two-and-a-half weeks ago. Could the results REALLY be available this soon?
David
Also, interesting to note that, this unsubstatiated "fact" is surfacing on the same week that the contract vote is to be taken. Pretty transparent if you ask me.
Peace,
ANDEE
The question to be answered is whether the $630M is a surplus or if that is the REAL deficit.
I am going to take stab at trying an explanation of sorts.
I work for a LARGE bank as a Financial Anal-yst (I work my butt off).
One of the things I do is work with budgets and actual expenditures.
Since is budget is nothing more than a projection of what is going to be spent no real dollars are involved. It is not like a bank account is set up with the money in it. It is all on paper. Actual expenditures are then matched against this budget.
I think what may be happening is that the MTA may have underspent their budget for the year. So any "surplus" is strictly on paper. There are no real dollars left over.
Just a thought.
And rest assured, that like any other state agency, if there WERE dollars laying around, rest assured that they've been "unencumbered" by Bruno and the boys upstate to be applied against budget shortfall. Woe be to any agency that doesn't blow their wad before the end of FY accounting and settlements are done. Any such money NOT thrown about gets "recaptured" (The "R" word is MIGHTY popular with politicians) ... but yes, you've got it right.
Now comes the shaking down of additional money that ISN'T there, and thus the budget projections shall be made real ... welcome to gubbamint where rocks float, no soup for you. :)
It may be a surprise that reporters don't know shit about railroads. but we have railfans here, declaring that cabcars are unsafe to light, blah blah blah with a total knowhow about trains learned from the Walters Catalog and experience of running their HO set around the Christmas tree?
ease up guys leave the accident analysis to NTSB stop flapping your gums about thins you don't know.
I only read about it. I don't really believe it. I feel safer in a push/pull cab car than on an airplane. Besides, anytime I ride Metro-North or NJ Transit, depending which direction I'm traveling, I always ride in the cab coach on push/pull trains. I feel safer in the front car of a train than in the middle( an exception... I like the rear cars, too). Reporters and certain public are quick to blame the train and its' crew members. They jump to conclusions too quickly.
with a total knowhow about trains learned from the Walters Catalog and experience of running their HO set around...
Well, my push-pull trainsets *are* from the Walther's Catalog (thank you) and they are the most reliable trainsets on my layout (which BTW would NEVER fit under a Christmas Tree). I took a while to tweek all of the wheelsets, drawbars, and couplers to work over my crummy trackwork, but I have had no trouble with them now for years. I have four trainsets that use a cab car that was converted from Budd RDCs that has two or three Athern 70' heavy weight coaches I have one trainset built for the purpose with Walther push-pull cars, but that needs my most powerful locomotive to make it up the grades. I have two trainsets that were converted "in-house" the first from IHC heavyweights, and the other from a fleet of Pullman Palace cars. The controlers for these trainsets came from the "B" end of some of the converted Budd RDCs. All of the trainsets (except the Walthers with the BIG locomotive) all have separate powerpacks (generally built into the combine car) to provide hotel power, heat and A/C to the consist, which in turn permits the use of the cheaper, more abundant 'freight' engines on these consists. (The two smaller locals use the original Budd RDC prime movers for this purpose).
All of the other consists on my layout are longer regional trains. So Seven push-pull consists and five regional and long-distance consists cover a timetable requiring 106 daily trains.
Some Fantasies start at home.
Elias
Wow. What rail system are you based on?
Too light? Go take a few basic courses in engineering.
they're too heavy.
That's why this stuff happens.
Lots of energy in an inherently unstable system.
boom
I've been saying this here for years now, and you guys stll apparently don't get it.
Weight does not equal safety. Weight is counterproductive. Weight equals energy. In an accident, you need to get rid of energy.
Find a place for it to go.
You either crush metal (which is very effective), or you send it somewhere else.
You don't just go *poof!* and make it dissdapear.
Well, look what you have here:
An inherently unstable system
A lot of energy.
A collision with an object.
A need to get rid of energy.
If this was an articulated DMU, like would be used elsehwhere in the world but is 100% illegal in the US, this wouldn't have even been a footnote in the evening news.
If a freight train had been comming in the opposite direction, the flipped metrolink cars would have made sorting out the dead bodies all the more difficult.
How many $&%^&%^&%^ times does it have to be said?
You cannot simply increase the safety of trains by increasing their weight. It does not work
You have to do it by better design. This is yet one more example of why the FRA's approach to passenger rail safety simply does not work.
Interesting. Why doesn’t the FRA like DMUs? I rode British Rail ones for years in the 1970’s (on the Saltburn-Darlington line), and I don’t recall them ever having a problem.
John
About two years ago a DMU running light was hit by a freight train at low speed and the DMU bodyshell seperated from the frame and comming loose. Had the DMU been occupied Rail magizine speculated that there would have definitly been fatalities.
Had the metrolink train been a GG-1, the energy of the impact would have been imparted to the truck turning it into a kenetic missile to land somewhere nearby the tracks. Or, it would have simply ripped the truck in half. Both alternatives were demonstrated in real life GG-1 accidents with a bullzoder and a Union Station.
Had the metrolink train been a DMU there wold be bodies all over the RoW and those still inside the train would have been compressed into a space 10 feet long. European railroads have a higher death in accident rate and this is WITH fewer grade crossings AND where crossings exist there is almost always gates and lights and frequently CCTV protection. If you put those deathmobiles on American railroads where crossing accidents are SOP you'll have to pay overtime at the bodybag factory.
"Had the metrolink train been a GG-1, the energy of the impact would have been imparted to the truck turning it into a kenetic missile to land somewhere nearby the tracks."
Mike, I swear to you that when your physics teacher tells you that there is no such thing as a perfectly elastic collision, he's not making it up. The truck would crumple, explode, get cut in half, or whatever well before enough energy had been placed in it by the train to launch it anything more than a few feet.
If the metrolink train had been a DMU, it most likely would have come out the same. You do not need a train that can survive everything that is thrown at it. This is fine, nobody on the train was killed, a few people go seriously hurt, and perhaps that needs to be looked at, since the train should not be flipping over like that, but in terms of actual structural damage, it appears that the car performed admirably.
What we need are americans to wisen up to the fact that when they drive they are responsible for their actions. You see people tailgating on freeways at 80+mph, running lights, and mostly making a$$es of themselves on the road. Playing chicken with trains goes hand in hand with this, perhaps we need something like Germany's RechtsFahre ('drive right' or 'drive correctly') laws, in germany if you're driving, you're driving, not eating, not talking on a cell phone, not trying to put on makeup or shave. Perhaps if people actually learned drivers ed, then we'd have fewer grade crossing accidents, although stupidity can't really be stamped out fully, it can be really supressed.
Playing chicken with trains goes hand in hand with this, perhaps we need something like Germany's RechtsFahre ('drive right' or 'drive correctly') laws, in germany if you're driving, you're driving, not eating, not talking on a cell phone, not trying to put on makeup or shave.
Ya! Vee vill make motoring offentses a kapital krime!
>>> Perhaps if people actually learned drivers ed, <<<
Are there any drivers education courses taught in any high schools anywhere? Fifty years ago, drivers ed was in virtually all public high school curricula, (usually taught by the high school's coaching staff) with dual control cars donated by local auto dealers. I haven't seen this in decades.
One thing Germany does have (or did when I was there in the ‘60s) was mandatory drivers education to obtain a drivers license. It was similar to obtaining a pilots license in the U.S. The person had to take so many hours of private instruction, and obtain a certificate from the school that he was proficient in driving. When I went to inquire how much I would have to pay to get the necessary certificate (I had been driving for six years already), I was told they could not give me a fixed estimate because it would depend on how well I drove. One of my friends (who had never driven before) spent nine months in training before he received a license.
Tom
One thing Germany does have (or did when I was there in the ?60s) was mandatory drivers education to obtain a drivers license.
Both North Carolina and New Jersey require it... and in both states the classroom portion must have been completed satisfactorily before you can even obtain a learner's permit. In New Jersey it is part of the high school curriculum (health class); in North Carolina it is done after school.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When I took drivers ed the task was not to pass or even complete the class, but pass the state driving test at the end. The test was no pushover either. It was like 50 questions and you had to get an 80.
When I took drivers ed the task was not to pass or even complete the class, but pass the state driving test at the end. The test was no pushover either. It was like 50 questions and you had to get an 80.
Still is. Jr. took it last year. However, he has no interest in learning to drive, so he hasn't gotten a permit (hopefully he'll change his mind before he graduates from high school in '04... I can't see being his chauffeur forever).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Its best to learn as quickly as you can, even if you don't drive. If he gets his lisance now and then just dosen't drive, he'll have a perfect driving record when he does start to drive and can save a bundle on insurance.
Wish me luck...I'll be taking the written test soon in Missouri...gotta go find a driving school...
Good luck. I thought you were older.
>>> I thought you were older <<<
What does age have to do with it? I do not know of any state that issues licenses without any test just because someone has reached a certain age.
Tom
Apparently Ron never had one. Living in areas with fairly good mass transit (New York, Philadelphia come to mind) he never felt the need to get one. Now, he's in KC, where (like Baltimore, except we got a little bit of rail transit) the local transit system is a bus, and a joke. Now a car (and the license to operate it) becomes a necessity.
Most, if not all, states allow licensed drivers who move there to convert their licence to the new state's. A generic test is given for rules of the road, and the old license is surrendered. The thought seems to be "If Maryland (for example) properly licensed the individual, then Missouri should".
I had my driver license at 17, in California, but still preferred RTD over driving due to economic reasons. My l;icense automatically renewed year after year, until finally came time to retake the written test, and by then I was living on the East Coast, so Ilet it slide.
But the good news is, anybody checking my driving record (Ha!) will see I've had no accidents, no citations, no points, no nothing.
Most, if not all, states allow licensed drivers who move there to convert their licence to the new state's. A generic test is given for rules of the road, and the old license is surrendered.
When I had to finally give up my North Carolina license for a New Jersey one (sniff...) the test was anything but generic. New Jersey has some strange laws (including the weakest DUI laws in the nation) and I would not have passed the test (30 questions for a license transfer, with 24 correct required to pass) had I not studied the New Jersey book beforehand. The test is administered at a computer terminal; once you get 24 correct it ends, even if they haven't asked the full 30 (I missed one so was asked 25). Had I given the same answers in North Carolina that I did in New Jersey, I would only have had about half of the questions correct.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, but Anon's insurance will go up now, because Jr has a license and is under 25. as far as the Insurance Co. is concerned, he's an accident waiting to happen.
Right. Actually, I probably wouldn't even be able to obtain insurance in New Jersey with him on the policy, since two of our three primary vehicles (I'm not counting the ones driven by our younger daughter and older son) are defined as "high risk" by New Jersey insurers ('94 Mustang and '65 Ranchero).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
two of our three primary vehicles (I'm not counting the ones driven by our younger daughter and older son) are defined as "high risk" by New Jersey insurers ('94 Mustang and '65 Ranchero).
The Ranchero is high risk? I would think that it could be registered and insured as a classic/antique vehicle.
The Ranchero is high risk?
Yes, if you have an under-25 driver in the family. I drive it daily, so it's not eligible for QQ plates, and it's considered a "sport truck". Never mind that with the optional 200 cu. in. 6 cylinder engine it has a thundering 120 SAE gross horsepower driving the rear wheels via a three-on-the-tree standard transmission, vs. the 200 net horsepower in my V-6 powered '96 Windstar. And my wife's '94 Mustang convertible only has the 155 hp. V-6 with automatic, it's not one of the fancy V-8 performance models.
Insurance companies - an even bigger racket than politicians.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> Both North Carolina and New Jersey require it <<<
Is that requirement for experienced drivers also? Many years ago I got a New Jersey license with just a written test.
Tom
Is that requirement for experienced drivers also?
No... see my comment in post 430551.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oops... make that post 431321.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mike, I swear to you that when your physics teacher tells you that there is no such thing as a perfectly elastic collision, he's not making it up.
Forget it. He's not gong to understand and doesn't want to.
Perfectly elastic collisions exist in physics 101 texts only. In the real world, collisions are far from elestic, far from perfect, and far from what goes on in a physics 101 text.
Since energy isn't conserved in the collision (or else the truck would have gone flying for a few hundred feet at high speed), physics 101 plays very little in what goes on.
Perfectly elastic collisions exist in physics 101 texts only. In the real world, collisions are far from elestic, far from perfect, and far from what goes on in a physics 101 text....
Physics 101 helps you to understand what goes on in the real world. Phil, you can claim that you know what goes on in the real world all you want, but until you can explain why, we can't work towards a solution to make the status quo better.
We had a talk here recently by the guy who designed the WTC at the 6th Felix Candela lecture. He, the structural engineer, like you, are obsessed with making things light yet strong. But there is only so much you can do with engineering. At the end of the day, you don't build houses out of plastics and kevlar and base it on tent construction because most people expect their homes to withstand a hurricane. I expect railroad cars to survive an impact at track speed with most highway vehicles, and light-weight railcars simply isn't going to cut it.
AEM7
I expect railroad cars to survive an impact at track speed with most highway vehicles, and light-weight railcars simply isn't going to cut it.
Funny, the LIRR M-1have had a great record in accidents of various sorts (what few there have been - the LIRR's ASC and strict rules and requirements surrounding operation have reduced serious accidents to a level that compares favorably anywhere but Japan). But, of course, the real thing is, they just don't get into many, despite being in a system that has complicated operation, very high (for the US) traffic, and numerous instances of 'reverse' running. Yet, there have been few serious collisions over thelast 30 years they've operated, and there have been fewer deaths.
The reason, is a system of safety, where trains are given redundant layers of protection (wayside signals, ASC, visual, timetable, radio communications), crews are well trained and knowlageable about the line charachteristics, freight is kept to rational limits, and braking performance is very high. When you combine these factors, you get a safety record like the LIRR's, which is, overall, significantrly better than Amtrak's (even excepting criminal negligence like the Portal derailment of the late 90's), even with lightweight equipment.
Implementation of ASC on all passenger routes for *all* trains would have reduced or prevented a number of recent serious and fatal rail accidents in the US (Metrolink, Amtrak's upstate rear ender, NJT headon), and actual regulatory enforcement (For instance, CSX's inability to maintain track to even minimal standards has long been known, but the FRA has done nothing about it), along with trains designed to stay upright and inline in a derailment (look at any recent M-1 derailment Vs any recent Superliner derailment), would have increased surviveability in an number of others.
The LIRR does have an admirable record. There is a defense in depth. RR crossings, for example, have four quadrant gates, extra overhead flashing red lights and a bell that continues ringing after the gate islowered.
Still, one can't expect much from a driver who not only goes around a lowered gate, but in doing so drives right past a police car with rooflights and wig-wags on, the officer looking after the victim of a previous collision.
"Funny, the LIRR M-1have had a great record in accidents of various sorts (what few there have been - the LIRR's ASC and strict rules and requirements surrounding operation have reduced serious accidents to a level that compares favorably anywhere but Japan). "
You're understating it. Passengers who crash while riding in British and European Continent trains fare much worse than on an M-1. How do you explain that? Doesn't FRA compliance have something to do with that.
>>> Still, one can't expect much from a driver who not only goes around a lowered gate, but in doing so drives right past a police car with rooflights and wig-wags on, <<<
A possible explanation for the accident is that he was rubbernecking at the auto accident so much that he was not paying any attention to railroad.
Tom
"You're understating it. Passengers who crash while riding in British and European Continent trains fare much worse than on an M-1. How do you explain that? Doesn't FRA compliance have something to do with that."
There are two kinds of safety, primary and secondary. The first is avoiding crashes altogether (which, it would seem, LIRR is pretty good at). But as also noted on this thread, some can't be avoided despite all precautions (stupid drivers on crossings, landslips right in front of trains, etc.). So you also need to minimise deaths and injuries if a crash occurs. Apparently the FRA seeks to achieve this by mandating very heavy, old-fashioned construction of cars. Hence posters on this baord have criticised European-style multiple units on secondary safety grounds.
Is there any statistical evidence on this point? In the event of a derailment occurring, is there data that shows that the probability of a passenger being killed or seriously injured is greater in Europe than in North America? Could it be something as simple as this: away from major metropolitan areas, in North America most trains are freight trains. In Europe, on the other hand, most trains are passenger trains. So the trains simply have more people on them to (potentially) get killed or injured, in Europe. We need data comparing like with like before we condemn European trains (especially DMUs) as unsafe.
The issue here is not only train vs train accidents (although it can be), but but accidents that cannot be prevented via crew training or better signaling or whatever. Nothing is going to prevent an asshole truck driver from driving around crossing gates (if the crossing even has gates) and NO, grade seperating the 230,000 crossings in this country is not going to ever happen. Nothing is going to prevent boulders falling onto tracks, heat kinks, vandalism, broken rails and washouts. You also can't prevent negligent worker action, shoddy maintainence, corner cutting and just plain old human error. Sooner or later someone is bound to slip up and there will be trouble. When shit happens and bodies are all over RoW what are you going to say? "Well its just the price we have to pay for better acceleration."
"Weight does not equal safety. Weight is counterproductive. Weight equals energy. In an accident, you need to get rid of energy. "
There is a place for some of it to go - into the truck the train smashed into.
"You cannot simply increase the safety of trains by increasing their weight. It does not work"
It doesn't work in a head-on collision with an equally heavy train going the other way.
It DOES work in a collision against a fixed object of any given weight, such as a truck.
The same is true of SUVs. An SUV is not inherently safer than a Honda Civic. But if you happen to hit either a deer or a Honda Civic you are less likely to be hurt if you are in an SUV than if you are in a Civic.
BODY STRENGTH as opposed to weight also helps in case of derailment. If the car stays intact, the people inside get tossed around, but they don't get impaled by exterior objects such as truck parts.
"BODY STRENGTH as opposed to weight also helps in case of derailment. If the car stays intact, the people inside get tossed around, but they don't get impaled by exterior objects such as truck parts. "
Incomplete statement. Getting tossed around increases the chance of a serious or fatal injury. Body strength is good for keeping parts of the outside world away from you, but the energy of the collision needs to be kept away from you too. Two ways to do this: crumple zones in a car, or the fact that in a collision, the energy transfer is by far in one party's favor (the train is intact, with the passengers getting bruises and scratches; the automobile it runs into, along with the occupants, is vaporized.
I think you're ON to something there. With the universal rules of right and wrong forever changed, "evil-doers" who impose their will on an oncoming train by blocking a crossing putting Americans at risk should be dealt with in the most severe method possible.
Therefore, all trains should be equipped with particle beam weapons that would vaporize the obstruction BEFORE an accident could occur, effectively removing the potential evil-doer before they could claim innocent lives. I'm surprised no one else has offered this. :)
Think of the savings!
You know, maybe we should maybe try to figgure out where the phasor victims go. If we don't it's bound to cme back and bite us in the butt.
They all come back as radio talk show hosts. :)
The proble with locomotive crumple zones that because of the weights and speeds involved, the zone would have to be a significant portion of the length of each car. Subtalker AEM7 posted previously that in France each coach can absorb 4MJ of energy per end, compared to 1MJ for a car. So in a collission the railcan can absorb 4x as much energy, but it weighs 10 to 20 times more than a car.
The goal is to prolong the deceleration time and for railcars the best way to do this is to push the other object out of the way, bring the other object along for the ride or to to have to car change its vector of travel to then proceed in an unobstructed direction (ie derail and then slide and bounce around the RoW w/o ejecting the passeengers inside).
Well according to Googlefight when it comes to:
RAILFANS verses REPORTERS: the winner is REPORTERS
but on another note,
when it comes to:
THE BRIGHTON LINE verses the SEABEACH LINE: the winner is THE BRIGHTON LINE!
Wow ... what a silly concept! :)
Joe Bruno vs. Mario Cuomo
Oh, we're never going to see the end of THIS around here. Heh.
Hehe, time for fun!
Chicago kicks New York's Arche!
Philadelphia gets in on the New York Beating
Even Seattle gives New York the beatdown
New York does manage to beat San Fran
Septa beats NYCTA It should be noted that MTA did beat Septa by a wide margin, but lots of cities use MTA.
And finally:
Eagles Beat Falcons!
Hoo boy ... well, at least there's SOME justice ... Joe Bruno vs. New York City
Still, as dumb as this all is, sure beats rearranging the subway lines. :)
Jaap, you have a excellent point, because I feel that on a jet (like the Southwest Airlines Boeing 737-300, and 737-700 that I used to go to Ft. Lauderdale back in October when my wife and I went on my honeymoon) felt very bumpy, and uncomfortable compared to an LIRR C3 cab car that rode so smooth. Even if the train hit a car to say, at least I would be safe with the weight of the car.
but we have railfans here, declaring that cabcars are unsafe to light, blah blah blah...
Yes, cab cars are too light, and unsafe, compared to a locomotive hauled consist.
If you look at Phil's comments, it's quite clear that he's the engineering type obsessed with making everything lighter. Light of course is good, but light by cutting everything to the margin is bad. Engineers are very good at cutting everything to the margin, and then when it breaks they say "it's outside the design envelope".
AEM7
LOL, I'll need to remember that, its a good one.
I have news for you, its not just trains, reporters have little knowlege about anything!
Is there any plan of making transitchecks available to be redeemed at MVM's? Because I have to go to the token booth to get my metrocard currently, and if the MTA closes some or most of them, will they do anything to protect us TransitCheck users? Also, the pre-valued transitcheck metrocards is not a option for me, because i get a 30 Day Unlimited Express Bus Pass which is $120, and I can only take out $100 a month in transitchecks (believe its some sort of tax thing). Thanks
From the Los Angeles Times article on today's crash:
Morning commuters, including a number of passengers in business suits, calmly assisted fellow travelers off the train and onto the tracks.
I guess Metrolink has its share of S.C.A.'s too!
I watched the KTLA news tonight to see their take on the accident story (this being Los Angeles it actually was only the third story on the show, behind the Malibu brush fires and the high winds that downed utility poles and overturned trucks on I-15). Most of the injured they showed getting off the train didn't appear to be in business suits; casual was the norm, though they may have just edited out those who didn't have at least a little blood on them getting out of the train.
Some video shot by Valley News Service showed the truck still burning a couple of 100 yards behind the accident and showed the first people arriving on the scene busting out the storm door window at the end of one of the overturned cars. However, outside of the basic details and saying the truck may have been stopped on the tracks, there wasn't any questions asked in the story on why a flatbed truck colliding with a rail passenger train would cause that much of a derailment.
However, outside of the basic details and saying the truck may have been stopped on the tracks, there wasn't any questions asked in the story on why a flatbed truck colliding with a rail passenger train would cause that much of a derailment.
You can't expect much from a TV news show. Be that as it may, I would imagine that there will be a lot of questions asked, as to why the train derailed, and new safety standards may be the result. Clearly, there was absolutely no reason why the train shoud have derailed, the impact with the truck being like the impact between a bowling ball and a ping pong ball.
The size difference between the vehicles and the major derailment -- with cars not just off the tracks, but on their sides -- was something I hoped there would be a little comment on why that happened. But with flames threatening homes in Malibu, buildings blown down in Ontario and trucks on their sides along Interstate 15, the story was given far less time than if it had been the only major story of the day in the L.A. area.
Anyway, here are a few of the relevant passages from today's L.A. Times (here's the link but even this story doesn't question the violence of the derailment, and you've got to register with the Times to read the full account:
The train, weighing more than 450 tons, consisted of four passenger cars and a locomotive. Since the locomotive was pushing the train from the rear, the first passenger car took the brunt of the impact from the accident...
...The train was believed to be traveling at about 50 mph, authorities said. The precise speed should eventually be determined when the train's data recorder - similar to a plane's "black box" - is analyzed.
The train derailed about 1,000 feet from the intersection, 20 minutes before it was scheduled to drop its 58 passengers at Union Station in downtown Los Angeles, Metrolink spokesman Francisco Oaxaca said. In addition to the passengers, there were two crew members aboard the train.
While the impact with the truck may not have been the direct cause of the cab car flipping -- if you look at the track layout at the scene, there is a clue.
Just south of the crossing where the collision took place, there is a switch to the left (in reference to the directiont he train was travelling). Perhaps the front truck of the cab car derailed...and when it hit that switch, that's when all hell broke loose. News showed the front truck of the cab car sitting adjacent to the rear of the engine when the whole mess came to a stop.
There were some overhead shots of the scene on the news last night, and the switch didn't appear damaged..but the rails on the track on which the train was travelling got separated in the wreck. The right running rail was about 50-60 feet away from the ties!
I bet the lead truck didn't derail first. No reason why it should from hitting a pickup.
The running rail going all over the place isn't surprising - a spike is not a hold down device.
"Some video shot by Valley News Service showed the truck still burning a couple of 100 yards behind the accident and showed the first people arriving on the scene busting out the storm door window at the end of one of the overturned cars. However, outside of the basic details and saying the truck may have been stopped on the tracks, there wasn't any questions asked in the story on why a flatbed truck colliding with a rail passenger train would cause that much of a derailment. "
According to today's LA Times, the pickup truck broke into many pieces on impact -- the largest of which became wedged underneath the cab car. The train apparently continued down the tracks for 1000 feet before it derailed. I guess that as the train slowed the remains of the truck wedged itself more and more to the point that the train eventually derailed.
This probably explains why there thankfully weren't more fatalities -- the two cars didn't leave the tracks at 70MPH, but rather at some much slower speed.
CG
Does anyone think it'd be worthwhile to add some express stops on the Sea Beach? I don't think you'd necessarily have to build express platforms, although that'd be nice. The cost these days would most assuredly prohibit that, anyhow. I'm thinking more along the lines of either running a train that wouldn't stop at all between 59th St. and Coney Island, or some sort of a skip-stop service during rush hours only.
No. The line has pretty low ridership overall, and the busiest stations, for the most part, are clustered at the north end. Pretty much any form of express service would yield more crowded locals than expresses, which is a sign that the express-to-local ratio is too high.
Remember what happened to the W Astoria express. Some lines simply don't have ridership patterns suited to express service, even if they happen to have express tracks.
I suppose you're right, but maybe ridership is low because the service is low. Furthermore, I don't even mean ADD service so much as alter existing service a little. I like to think that adding service might cause more usage, and if one thing doesn't work, try something else. Did you see my post about M line improvements? I said I think they should use the Chrystie connection to send the M or J to 57th St. and 6th Ave. (like the KK obviously) at least weekends, because I think the Nassau line is totally insufficient.
You're right the Nassau line is insufficient, the J train has to terminate at the dungeon aka Chambers St on weekends and the M only goes to Myrtle Av, which I think is ridiculous. You can't send trains to 57/6 Av b/c the F uses the 63 St connector however if the Nassau-Manny B connection via Broadway[the Nassau loop] then you could send it via Broadway. But I think its best to send the M along with the J to Chambers or Broad St to let passengers connect to the other lines at Fulton St.
To be honest, have you ever transferred from the J to anything else at Broadway/Nassau? It's a labyrinth, a maze, you can get LOST in there. Seriously, you have to really follow the signs, plus up and down all those stairs is really a hassle. It's definately better to just catch the 4 5 and 6 at Chambers.
Can they turn trains at West 4th? At least you'd be able to just cross the platform to get further uptown.
Also, while we're at it: Would turning trains at 57/6 Av really be all that much of a problem? I'm only talking about running this service on weekends.
Yes I have transferred at Broadway-Nassau/Fulton St before and I agree it is a maze & easy to get lost in not to mention it is very hot as well. I know it make no sense transferring for the 4/5 at Fulton St, I would always use Chambers St to catch the 4,5,6 at Brooklyn Bridge.
I don't know the switch layout at W 4 for sure but I think there is no crossover switch in the middle tracks there unless you're thinking of wrong railing from W 4 to Broadway Lafayette having M's run SB on the uptown express track, probably the best thing to come up with for the M going into Manhattan, I like your idea.
You don't want it to interfere with F train service at 57 and overall I'm kind of against it.
Actually, fish came up with a great idea that I didn't even consider: Run the V to Broadway Junction. Look for his and my posts in the "M line improvements" thread.
I considered that too. Its in the M line improvement thread, check the posts I made btw 12am and 2am.
To J trainTony, if its not in the M line improvement thread then its in this Sea Beach thread.
You'd have to pull the R-46s off the V in order to do that. 75-footers are a no-no on the Eastern Division.
Well, that's totally fine- use 32's, or just use the 40's and 42's that the Eastern already has. Re-rollsign 'em.
>> Can they turn trains at West 4th? <<
If they could, do you think they would they be running the current B/D/Shuttle service they are now? Please. If it was possible to turn trains efficiently anywhere between W 4th and Broadway/Lafayette, the service patterns currently in effect would NEVER have been implemented.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
To be honest, have you ever transferred from the J to anything else at Broadway/Nassau? It's a labyrinth, a maze, you can get LOST in there. Seriously, you have to really follow the signs, plus up and down all those stairs is really a hassle. It's definately better to just catch the 4 5 and 6 at Chambers.
Yes, I have gotten lost in that station complex. I used it once a week for a semester back in the early 90's when I had to go somewhere at Clark Street once a week using the 2/3. It took me weeks to figure the place out. And even to this day, I almost always wait for a J/M at Fulton thinking it's going to come from the opposite direction it finally comes from, whether I'm going north or south. it almost never fails.
Also, while we're at it: Would turning trains at 57/6 Av really be all that much of a problem? I'm only talking about running this service on weekends.
I don't know about that. The old KK service pattern was killed when they opened the 63rd Street connector. Well, not the original segment, but last years opening. The KK terminated at 57th/6th. no problem, no through trains. In 1989, they would still have been able to run KK service, except it would have had to go to 21-Queensbridge. Still no real problem.
In 2001, once the 63rd Street route became a through route, there is no way to run the old KK route anymore. The only way the Chrystie service could run again is if a the V is extended to either Metropolitan or a new/extra route to Canarsie, or a M/V or M/C merger
The V extension would allow the J/Z skip stop to run express b/t BJ and Myrtle, with the V picking up the local stops. I don't see any way to run a KK service, as the KK would have to continue on to Queens Blvd and as a 5th service there would be no room, there is no way to terminate in Manhattan anymore.
There's no reason to transfer between the J/M/Z and the 4/5 at Fulton -- you're right that the transfer at Chambers is easier.
But there's very good reason to transfer between the J/M/Z and the 2/3 or A/C at Fulton: there's nowhere else to make that transfer!
Ridership is low because the line passes through neighborhoods of single-family homes and, south of New Utrecht, runs between two other lines. Demand just isn't very high.
Running some trains express would decrease, not increase, service. If there are now 6 tph on the N (to pick a number out of the air -- I'm not looking at the schedule), then running alternate trains express would yield only 3 tph at local stations -- i.e., all of them!
I have the 2000 station fare registration counts. Stillwell had 3,527,851 entries. Some of those people used lines other than the N, and some needed specifically the Sea Beach local. But let's assume that every single one of them gets on your new Sea Beach express. Furthermore, Stillwell is busiest on weekends, while you're proposing a rush hour express, but let's forget about that as well.
The 453,684 passengers at 86th Street can't use the express. They watch it go by and pile on the local.
The 607,282 passengers at Avenue U can't use the express. They watch it go by and pile on the local, now carrying 1,060,966.
The 889,762 passengers at Kings Highway can't use the express. They watch it go by and pile on the local, now carrying 1,950,728.
The 1,156,255 passengers at Bay Parkway can't use the express. They watch it go by and pile on the local, now carrying 3,106,983.
The 910,483 passengers at 20th Avenue can't use the express. They watch it go by and pile on the local, now carrying 4,017,466. The local is now carrying more passengers than the express.
The 1,025,144 passengers at 18th Avenue can't use the express. They watch it go by and pile on the local, now carrying 5,042,610.
Let's assume that all of the 1,223,846 passengers at New Utrecht are upstairs waiting on the West End. (I don't know the breakdown.)
The 1,146,251 passengers at Fort Hamilton Parkway can't use the express. They watch it go by and pile on the local, now carrying 6,188,861.
The 1,731,910 passengers at 8th Avenue can't use the express. They watch it go by and pile on the local, now carrying 7,920,771.
By the time the two trains pull into 59th Street, the local is carrying over twice as many passengers as the express -- and that's only assuming that every passenger boarding at Stillwell takes the Sea Beach express, Stillwell has the same rush hour peak as the rest of the line, and nobody gets on the N at New Utrecht, which are pretty unrealistic assumptions. Furthermore, passengers at local stations have to wait twice as long in the cold (or heat, if we can think about summer now) before they can even board.
Working with my hypothetical 6 tph, if half of those run express, headways jump from 10 minutes to 20 minutes and average waits jump from 5 minutes to 10 minutes. Given 30 seconds saved per bypassed stop, let's say the express saves about 5 minutes (I can tell you that, in fact, it saves about half that). The 3,527,851 passengers at Stillwell save 5 minutes on the ride but they also lose 5 minutes in the wait (remember, we're assuming they all take the express), so they don't actually gain anything aside from a much emptier train. The 7,920,771 passengers at local stations wait an average of 5 minutes longer and have to cram onto a much more crowded train. Nobody saves time; 69% of the passengers have to wait 5 extra minutes in the cold and have to endure more crowded trains.
And you think this will attract people to the line? It will only chase them away.
I don't think it's a problem that the Sea Beach isn't a very busy line -- it's just a consequence of the neighborhoods it passes through. I wish my line had such low ridership! (For comparison, my local station had 5,867,037 fare registrations in 2000. The 1 is very, very crowded. This past Sunday morning at 8:45, half the passengers in my car were standing. Picture that on the N!)
Wow, my head is spinning after that. Good illustration though.
We have to save this post for the next time the NX is brought up again.
Do you guys know about the IRT #7? Don't they have both local and express trains? Well then, why the hell can't the Sea Beach alternate their trains every other time. One time a local, the other an express, and run them so the customer doesn't have to wait so long that he needs a shave. Start it at Times Square, run one of them express through Manhattan, over the Manny B and express throughout Brooklyn. The other could be a local. Ridership would increase just because of the innovative qualities of the change. Then it could become habit. I'm tired of hearing all these damn, stupid excuses. What has the TA done to improve the line? Nothing! What has it done to hurt the line? How much time have you got?
Innovative change quality notwithstanding, Fred, the answer is simply that there isn't enough ridership to justify express service on the Sea Beach Line. The Sea Beach express tracks were built to wisk summer patrons to Coney Island very quickly in the days of the "nickel empire", and it did that very well. However, as a result of this view, there weren't any express stations built between Stillwell and 59th St, and I think that if there were (Kings Highway and New Utrecht Ave would be prime candidates), then the possibilty of express service in current times would have been greater. And I honestly think even having those staions wouldn't have changed very much.
The southern area of Brooklyn west of the Brighton line has very good coverage, but east fo the Brighton line, coverage is much smaller. People looking for a subway ride to Manhattan inevitably hit the Brighton line first, and that's why Brighton service has all-day express service. Ridership levels supprot it.
I have no official references to back this up, so this is my opinion. (Any deviation of this opinion without the express consent of the national football league is a 15 yard penalty. But if you're a Giants fan, it would make no difference)
--Mark
"I have no official references to back this up, so this is my opinion."
Have some references:
1. The Brooklyn bus map shows all the bus lines that serve vast areas and then hit the Brighton line before they hit any other subway line. I counted them once - I think there were 23 of them.
2. A Hagstrom map of Brooklyn shows that the Sea Beach Line has other lines on either side. Therefore, there is much less land area for which the Sea Beach is the nearest subway than the land area for which the Brighton is the nearest subway.
There are also no high-rises along the Sea Beach route. The Brighton line has high-rise and mid-rise apartment buildings at various points along the route.
Sorry Fred but your line loses, a express service isn't justified now and you know it. You can't have every other train run express neither b/c that would cause a increase in waiting times at all the local stations from 86 St to 8 Av, then some of the stations like 8 Av is booming with new immigrants. The only thing I could think of that might make sense is run 5 's in the morning and 5 's in the afternoon other than that NOTHING else could work.
Fred, first off, the Sea Beach is one of my favorite lines.
But, how would it be beneficial to run a supposed "Sea Beach Express" that skips all of the stations on the Sea Beach? The only people that would benefit from a "NX" train are people at Coney Island - NONE of the Sea Beach Line riders. It would be a parasite to the Sea Beach, sucking the life out of it (the N train) while using it's tracks.
The 7 is a totally different scenario. It works there because there are intermediate express stations, the diamond 7 is directly sevicing the Flushing line's riders. An NX would not benefit actual Sea Beach line riders at all. Is that what you really want for your Sea Beach?
Fred has his blue NX chain stored somewhere in his home, that's why he wants the NX express back.
Just to add:
In addition, if an "NX" type train did run on the Sea Beach, starting on the BRIGHTON line at Brighton Beach station liek the last time, isn't the "NX" really a "BRIGHTON" line express as opposed to a "Sea Beach" express, benefiting those BRIGHTON line stations and NOT any of the Sea Beach stations. Now is that Brighton Line "parasite" what you want for your Sea Beach?
Chris you called us parasites? Evidently you either hate the Brighton Line or just want to find an excuse to back Fred up.
No matter how you say it, the Brighton Line services more customers on a daily basis than any other line in Brooklyn, with the possible exception of the IRT lines.
The Brighton still wins b/c its starting on 'our' trackage[Brighton Beach]. Look we even have a station named after the line; well technically. So our line provided a lot of the passengers thay used the NX I assume. Sorry Sea Beachers, even though I see the misery you went through over the years, the Brighton is the busiest BMT line out of the 4 lines that serve Stillwell Av [when it reopens] and is busy in general.
Kool, it's a joke. Come on, don't take it seriously, I was just playing. Of course the Brighton Line serves more customers.
<<<...with the possible exception of the IRT lines. <<<
And therein lies a tale.
Peace,
ANDEE
Fred will be lucky if the Sea Beah runs over the bridge in 2004. It is where it belongs. Things have changed since Fred was a kid 70 years ago
See what I have to put up with Andee? I'm supposed to suffer fools badly but apparently I do a much better job doing it well than I thought. He's the only one who seems to think the Sea Beach should stay permanently in the Montague rat hole. But, then again, that's our Booby.
At you have me as N supporter. We can convince TA to put the N back on the bridge.
I shall reverse the statement and shall add the N Slow Beach to this
statement about the M and R lines going through the infamous Rat Hole.
Montague's
Numerous
Rats
NOW WAIT A MINUTE HERE! am'I seeing a similarity here on this phrase >>>>"M and R lines going through the infamous Rat Hole."<<<<
M and R lines! HMMM!
M stands for "Montague"
R stands for "Ratholes"
Now we have M and R lines running via M.R.
I see that, too. It tells me only that the N doesn't belong with that duet, so let's get the TA to get our train the hell out of that rathole.
The M joins just below Whitehall St, The N and R run the entire length, how about the garbage pit along the Sea Beach ROW south of 8th Ave all the way to 86th St?
I saw plenty of garbage along the Prospect Park-Parkside stations on your line----and this was AFTER the TA refurbished the stations. You must have a bunch of slobs using your line because some of the Brighton stations now look like Berlin did in 1945.
How did it feel to be without electricity last wek in beautiful Arcadia. No air con and other luxuries
We haven't used air conditioning since September with the exception of two afternoons. We were without power for about 20 hours while we were told it could as long as three days to get it back. What can I say except that we Californians are terrific workers and get the job done. That's why we are the greatest state without question--except, of course, for your Democrat friends up in Sacramento who have screwed up our financial posture for years.
You had 16 years of Republicans in the Gov seat until Davis, so don t blame the demos
We also had a big surplus which Governor Wilson left before the Demo legislature screwed things up. I don't blame Davis for all of it because it wasn't all his fault but he to shoulder some blame for putting Steve Peace in charge of the power control. That guy couldn't pour piss out of a boot if the directions were printed on the side.
And when Clinton left his office we had a surplus, and Cracker George, gave it all away to his rich friends in rebates, and we are down how many trillions., and how many guys got refunds, over $150.00 per person out there.
Not only that Bob, when was the last time Dumbya was going after Osama Bin Laden? He is too obssesed with Saddam and North Korea now, yet we will have trillion dollar deficits as a result of his war actions.
hOPE fRED READS THIS
Just for the record you two boopsie twins, the fact is that Clinton had three chances, THREE FOR PETE'S SAKES", to get Bin Laden turned over to him and he refused. Why? We put up with that moral degenerate for eight years and now it's your turn to suffer for the next eight year cycle. And it will be eight years.
And you damm Republicans (who want to control a wonan's right to an abortion), spent millions of dollars on these damm impeachment hearing because Clinton lied about his personal sexual relations with an intern. And that Kenneth Starr needs to have a cigar too for a change, it tastes better! Anything to get rid of a draft-dodger.
Draft dodger, adulterer, and a liar under oath. Quite a resume to brag about.
I really thought the U.S. Supreme Court elected our current President (whose daughters should join MADD or SADD), his buddies at Enron, or WorldCON, get slaps on their wrists while thousands of working class Americans are out of work, their 401K dreams died with them.
And what if Mcdonalds files bankruptcy, you can thank Bush for his so-called "economic stimlus" package for that.
A-MEN TO THAT
And don't forget: he didn't inhale.:)
Fred will be out of town for the weekend in Republican Country trying to play golf
What's his handicap?
Right Winged, I don t know, I have no use for 2 sports Golf and Boxing
Right Winged, I don t know, I have no use for 2 sports Golf and Boxing His main handicap is being a Republican
I don't know because they can't count that high. Actually I am very inconsistent. I have played some very good rounds for me but I have also had some dismal outings. I love to play and I think I keep improving in small increments. I have access to my buddies computer so I am taking about 20 minutes to keep up with Subtalk.
Steve, as God made little green apples five will get you ten that bambling Bob will come on board to laud and defend that twirp.
THAT WAS YESTERDAY, TODAY WE GO AGANST THE OIL WAR IN IRAQ.
IT COULD BE ANOTHER VIET NAM.
I heard that tune, too, back in 1991. We won that war if I remember, drove the Iraquis out of Kuwait and destroyed much of their army. The only mistake was not to go all the way to Baghdad.
That is true, so now the Younger Bush has to finish what his Father failed to do 12 years ago. And then Daddy diud not win re-election because he did not do anything on the economy. History will repeat.
.....boy, I'll tell ya'. Please guys, please. This here fussin' and a feudin' is really not, uh, up to the noble mission of informed discourse re: the most elegant of transport nodes, the application of steel wheels upon steel rails. I say this, fellows. Let us return to the talk of four track trench line versus four track embankment. The virtues of subway passage versus the exigencies of bridge passage. Let us all hold on to the straps and marvel at the journey.
Enough of the Politics unless it has something to do with the Subways etc.
I wouldn;t bet on it if I were you. On the other hand, if you want to make a wager on 2004 I will be only too glad to take you up on it.
BTW. You never answered the questions of the Sea Beach Triplex Marker Lights.
It was red and white-----but I was told that by Steve8AVEXP. I know it is blasphemy but I had forgotten the colors until reminded of it and all of a sudden I could see them. That's weird. I owe Steve a vote of thanks.
Fred was probably accustomed to looking for green backlit bulkhead signs instead of marker lights. OTOH, since the 4th Ave. local was just about all-BMT standards, you would have had to look for the marker lights.
Hey Steve, that is probably why I thought the color was green. I have always associated the Sea Beach with green because I know I once saw a #4 sign in green come into Times Square one time around 1949.
And had the end signs been illuminated in white, it meant the train was operating via the Montague St. tunnel.
You must have seen R-1s on the 4th Ave. local back then, sporting #2 signs. A group of them were sent over to the BMT after the R-10s arrived.
Yes I did. I think I first saw them on the 4th Avenue Local around 1952 or so. It made it final in my mind that the FAL was a horsedung train for sure because #2 was one of my least favorite numbers and putting that on that train was just gravy on the beef.
Did you ever notice that both the R-1/9s and Triplexes had the same braking system? Both had that trademark "tch-ssss" magnet valve sound. The BMT standards OTOH went, "tchhhhhhhhhhh" just as they would come to a full stop.
During the 50s the Fouth Ave Local used IND R Cars and were green and green and the number 2
Tell Steve he is a Fink if he told you since I posted it
Thw colors are right but in the wrong positions. White Over the Cab Red on Left Side So the correct markers were White and Red
WHAT WE SHOULD DO IS JUST SWEND SOME B 1S OVER HIS OIL WELLS AND REFINERIES AND DISTROY THEM COMPLETELY, WITHOUT OIL HE CANT BUY ANYTHING, BUT GEORGES AND CHANEYS STANDARD OIL FRIENDS WILL CRY TOO MUCH AND LOOSE PROFITS,
And where was Georgie Bush during Viet Nam, in some Air Force National Guard Unit his father kept in Texas in stead of being shipped over to Viet Nam.
Now he wants to have a war that his father did not finish, to help Exxon-Shell-Chevron etc to get more oil and raise prices, so the Bush-Chaney Family could have larger ranches
Hey Bob for that incisive observation you win a one way round trip to the two choices for your choice----a plane to Pyongyang, or a boat ride to Havana.
I would love to go to Havana right now, nice warm beaches. In fact I was in Cuba a few times. 4 to be exact, 3 by hijacking in 69-70 as a Flight Attendent, and once in 56 as a kid.
As to Koreanb, you can have the whole damn country. Very rude people, both from the North and South.
Well that is fair enough. No retort is needed because for one time you made complete sense. Hope you are having a nice weekend.
I always make sense
(yawn) ... like so much else out of Rush's History Revisionism Squad, NOT TRUE ...
If you're actually INTERESTED in TRUTH and not repeating dittoheaded dogma, have a look here:
http://www.makethemaccountable.com/myth/ClintonAndTerrorism.htm
Clinton's gone, reality is today ... where in the world is (bump bump) Osama?
The clock is continue to ticking JUST 11 MONTHS and 15 DAYS Left before TA came with 2004 MannyB Full Service Plan. Fred!. So keep your fingers cross from now til Dec while you can. Once TA decided Send N back to Bridge. We are calling for celebration to our N Train's Victory.
FREED FROM ABUSE AND NEGLECTION!
Q Bridge 24/7
W Bridge
N Tunnel 24/7
R Tunnel
I love your service plan Bob, especially when we go over the bridge 24/7 and the N stays in the rat-nnel.
What a duo----simple Simon and Simpler Simon
Hey Fred!, I get the feeling that Kool-D and #1Brighton Exp Bob will make a lovely couple together, AH HA HA HA HA HA HA HHA HA HA HA HAA HA ! LOL HAA OH MY GOD!
I wouldn't wish Kool=D that kind of luck. Bad enough that I have become one of his best friends. He can be difficult but to me he is a pal. However, one of him is enough, believe me.
If you don t like being my friend. I will put you in my flush list
(only kidding)
I love being your friend. Why even doubt it. You're my pal, but I love giving it to you the way you give it to me. Let someone else get on your case, however, and it's war across the board.
I knew I would get a response from the OLD ITAY GUY IN CALIF
I was thinking of using the W 24/7 but local 11p-5AM via Tunnel
Kiss my #$%
That s your dogs job
read my latest chenge. I switched the N for the W 24/7 between 11P-5AM the W will be a local
You can kiss my rosy, royal, ruby red ass.
I already answered that. But do you remember the colors of the Sea Beach Marker Lights? Only Fred to answer this please. And the trip from Coney island to Prospect Park, was on a Standard Local. since the Express ran only Triplexes and ran from Brighton Beach Only
I know what they were, but I'll keep quiet.
I wonder if Fred remembers
I think they were green but I'm not really sure.
BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!
Red and white.
I guess I blew that one. For some reason I have always associated the color green with the Sea Beach. Maybe a few of the #4 signs were a light green at some time. Maybe, maybe not. Thanks for the answer and the BZZZZZZZ.
If you remember green signs on the Triplexes, they had a clever setup: if the end signs were backlit in green, it meant the train was operating via bridge. Since Sea Beach trains used the bridge, you always saw "4-Times Square" or "4-Coney Island" backlit in green. If they were backlit in white, the train was operating via tunnel. The side signs worked the same way, AFAIK. Chances are there were a lot of people who rode those cars daily for years and never gave it a second thought.
If you're like me, you were used to seeing signs on the bulkheads, so the marker lights were less relevent. I never paid any attention to marker lights.
They also said 57th St Manhatten
Yes, after 1957.
It was before 57, because the Brighton Exp went to Astoria as early as 1954, and A Uncle who rode the Sea Beach to Bay Pkwy worked at 7th and 51st, walked to 57th St to get the train rather then Times Sq so he would get a seat.
Ok guys, I will settle it. The terminal for the Great Sea Beach was changed from Times Square to 57th Street in 1957.
Ask Larry Redbird R-33. He has the exact date.
It was before 57 because the switches are North of Times Square and the Brighton Exp went to Astoria as early as 1954 and had to switch over there or South of 57th.
How would you know, you were already in Downey at that time.
I'm #4 Sea Beach Fred, remember? I know. Besides, Mark Feinman told me for one, Steve8AVEXP did for another, and even Gary Wengeroff once E-Mailed me to that fact when I first got on Subtalk in June of '99.
Well, if that's true, if there will be Sea Beach 4th Ave/Bridge (skip DeKalb) express service in a year, it might be time to consider moving back to Bensonhurst.
I doubt it will skip DeKalb, most likel;y what ever runs on the West End will
Any train that runs on the 4th Avenue express and over the bridge would have to skip DeKalb. Otherwise, the trains would have to switch to the local tracks to stop, merging with the 4th Avenue locals, then with the Brighton trains, only to switch back after.
You may be right but I believe it was a Triplex. I never rode a standard unless I had to. They were ugly. Maybe we changed trains, I don't remember that, but it was a Triplex. I simply could not stand to ride a Standard.
Not if itb was a Sunday
It was Tuesday, August 18, 1953. That I know for a fact.
At least we both feel or felt the same way about the BMT standards. To me, riding on them on the Canarsie was cruel and unusual punishment.
Heeheehee! Ahh the Q running 24/7 via bridge come 2004 is just a great idea Bob. That was uncalled for though saying the N should run via tunnel 24/7 :0).
Oh, just shake it off Flatbush 41, it was just Bob being Bob. You know a real boob.
I already know how you two are and I shook it off already ;-).
It's the Bob and Fred show in high gear.
Nothing like a lively
Sea Beach
vs
Brighton
debate.:)
You're a work of art Steve but maybe you ought to go on strike. BTW, how are things in the frigid zone? Staying warm, I hope. Nevertheless, I'm elated, as so is Bob, that you take such interest in our running feud. We talked about it last night on the phone. Keep them coming.
Frigid? It's mild and dry in Denver. Very dry. The mountains are getting belted while we're not getting squat.
Isn't feuding a staple on the Bob and Fred Show?:) You two would make a great radio talk show duo.
Please see posting #433749, item #1. You are already in my killfile. lol
Who said anything about the service change taking place on January 1? Spring is what I've heard. Even if everything is ready on January 1, NYCT almost always implements service changes on Sundays, not Thursdays.
Exactly. Guess you have to change the time of the countdown to 14 MONTHS ;-).
I doubt both sides of the bridge will open before July 1, 2004 or thereabouts. If everything goes well. What's another six months after 22 years?
The real question is how long until half or more needs to be closed again, not how long until it opens. I'd gladly have a longer wait for the former in exchange for a longer wait for the latter.
You are lucky that the don t pave it over and run a transit bus on it like they do on Wilshire and Ventura Blvds in LA, The trains are never filled
Stonewall Jackson Rosenthal has just been heard from. I heard he has even joined the Sons of the Confederacy as a honorary member. What next?
Just because I live in Virginia, I am now a Confederate. I only live 10 miles from the Northern Border, I admit I am a YANKEE, born and raised within 125 miles of Times Square.
Your Conserativism comes out, like the Crackers around here, Still living 140 years ago, afraid of change, of any kind.
Conservatism? Cracker? Hell, I'm an unreconstructed Yankee Republican. I have no connection with the hookworm belt where you reside and I wouldn't be caught dead eating grits. The only thing I have in common with the South is that they finally got smart and many have joined the party of Lincoln. Aside from that, there is little in common, and, in fact, Southerners would find my brand of politics a little hard for them to swallow. Yall heah?
Have some Onions Fred
Did you watch that New Show last night on NBC about a Senator. He came up with a question. What is a Democratic or a Republican? It seems that A Democratic from Mississippi or Lousiana, is ,more Conserative then a Republican from New Jersey or Pennsylvania.
Maybe those tow names have outlived their names, and go to
Conserative Party or Labour or Liberal.
What are Conseratives so afraid of change?
We went out to dinner and a show last night so we missed the new TV drama. I hope to see that show from now on. It should be a far cry from that disgusting one with even more disgusting Martin Sheen who I despise more than any other actor save Alec Asshole Baldwin. Yes, there are northern Republicans less Conservative than Southern Democrats but we are getting to the point that one party is Liberal and one is Conservative. And we are not afraid of change. I think putting Bill Frist in as majority leader and Bush's great tax plan is very innovative and real change---though you and the rest of your socialist friends will disagree.
Saw Gangs of New York last night. Great movie. You have to see it.
Of course you would like Bush s tax cut, you make 6 figures, how about us Peons. I am still waiting for the 1st rebate, Judy only got back 23.00
The only thing I have in common with the South is that they finally got smart and many have joined the party of Lincoln.
That's because the Democrats became tolerant, they had to join the new party of intolerance.
Keep it up, you two. I'm rotflmao.
Are you sniffing the Rocky Mountain Air Again
Yeah, like, it's great stuff, dude!:)
Don't freeze your ass off in that stuff.
Better the the stuff in the San Gabriel Valley
The sun's out and it looks like another typical Southern California day----picture perfect. How's things in your neck of the woods? Not so good, eh? I thought so.
It was 60 on Thursday, 1/2 snow last night. At least we have fresh air all year round where I live and 4 seasons, not like LA where it is rain or no rain, mostly no rain, and when it is hot, fires all around the place.
That sounds like what we're experiencing right now. We need moisture in buckets right now.
Warm California weather does not mean you can walk to an open cut subway line, with stations that have peeling paint, leaks all over the place, poor lighting in station mezzanines, a diplidated freight line running halfway alongside your line, rush hour service is every 8-10 minutes (and those trains you see, are admired by rats in a dark dingy tunnel, one of them waved hello at me the other day.) So much to talk about, I kinda forgot the name of your line already.
You not being cool Kool-D.
Fred,
You should be mature enough to know that what goes around comes around. If you needle people, they will needle you back, and you should be able to take it.
Ready, AIM, Bbbbblllluuuuuuuuaaaaaaaannnnnnk! You missed the intent of my retort to Kool-D which means you can't see subtlety to save your ass. Needling me is a passtime most of my friends on Subtalk do as a matter of course and it usually elicits a smile and a few laughs. Since you don't know shit from shinola about me I can pass off your post as nothing more than jibberish. Read my posts and those that come my way from Brighton Express Bob, Steve9AVEXP, BMT Doug, El Marko Feinman, and the rest of the crew. Then you won't need to be told how ridiculous your post to me was. But hell, you are forgiven because I have been known to post a few ridiculous posts of my own so in this you're not the Lone Ranger.
That's true it would hurt riders more than help on the Sea Beach line. If the 7 was all local, it will cause monstorous delays, bunching & delays, same thing with the 6 you don't need all those trains going to Pelham Bay Park. The 6 & 7 has what 3-6 minute headways ALL DAY and peak express service all day while the N is every 8-10 minutes throughout the day and you can't do a peak express service with current levels. If the N's frequency hadn't gone down from 4-5 minutes in the rush over the years to every 8-10, it would have been possible then but now forget about it.
Remember also that even if the 7 didn't have intermediate express stops, it might still be justified because Main Street is the busiest stop on the line.
Coney Island for the N however is one of the least busiest.
#4 Sea Beach Fred: I am surprised at you. Sea Beach has four tracks, why are you not yelling loud and clear that all four tracks be used and the train go strait to Coney Island and of course over the bridge.
Make the Sea Beach a four track express line as it was originally designed to be.
The fact that the Sea Beach line doesn't have any express stops shows that from DAY ONE, the BMT realized the Sea Beach line was their least important facility and it would be the easiest one to install express tracks that would go non-stop to Coney Island. The express tracks aren't there for the Sea Beach line, they're there for Coney Island alone.
Sorry, but Coney Island doesn't have those kinds of passenger counts anymore. Besides, even in the old days, CI's big days were on the weekends, the Sea Beach express tracks were not regularly used on weekdays, nor were they built for such use. Any use of the Sea Beach express tracks DEPRIVES Sea Beach passengers of service. How could that INCREASE ridership of all things?
Back in the early to mid 50s the Sea Beach Express tracks were used by theSunny Summer Sunday Franklin Trains, which ran express on the Brighton South of Prospect Park, then thru Coney Island, Non Stop via the Nassau Loop. No stops between 59th and Coney Island. The people who used them came to Coney Island Only.
Peppertree, I have seen my train get screwed left and right and right about now I'm just trying to get one thing at a time for the Sea Beach. The fact that the N has been shafted seems to have been lost on the part of some of our bretheran on Subtalk. If I had my druthers this is what I would do for the Sea Beach.
1. Terminate it at 42nd Street and Times Square.
2. Run it express in Manhattan
3. Send it over the Manny B.
4. Express in Brooklyn to Coney Island.
5. Use some of the N trains as expresses in Brooklyn's open cut stations.
6. Use the express tracks for quick trips to send kids to Coney Island trips in the summer and also for Brooklyn Cyclone games.
There, that should about do it. Am I back in your good graces? Boy, it was sure good to get that off my chest. The Sea Beach rules with me and the hell with what the rest of humanity thinks.
It does seem foul that this resource, a r.o.w. four standard railroad tracks wide is underutilized. And for the Sea Beach, express is VERY important. To have to stop at every dang Fourth Avenue local station, after boarding at 20th Ave is excruciatingly tedious. The Sea Beach is such a natural feeder for the express tracks between 59th and Pacific that I will never understand why it so oftentimes runs local up that corridor.
Another thing. I have seen old BMT service descriptions and there were trains that skipped 36th Street. I like to think about how busy 36th Street must have been back then. I never heard of that; of a line where "super express" trains bypassed the express platform. The BMT was magnificent.
The N currently runs express on 4th Avenue -- weekends, weekdays, and nights.
The N has run express on 4th Avenue on weekdays since 1994. It was a weekend/night local until 9/8/02, when it began running express so it could terminate at Pacific. Between 7/22/01 and 9/7/02, it had to run local on weekends or it would have been blocked by terminating W's at Pacific and whatever time was saved on the express run would have been more than lost waiting in the tunnel to get into Pacific. Before 7/22/01, it could have run express on weekends, but then the local stations between Pacific and 36th, including a transfer point from the F, would have been served by only the R.
And who do you think it would help to use the Sea Beach express track? Expresses would bypass your stop -- do you enjoy standing in the cold watching trains not stop for you? Ridership patterns, not tracks, should be the primary factor in determining service arrangements. I calculated in an earlier post that, if alternate trains ran express, Sea Beach locals would end up over twice as crowded as Sea Beach expresses, and that most passengers would lose time by having to wait longer for a train. Who does that help? When the W was first introduced, it ran express on the Astoria line. N's ended up much more crowded than W's, because the busiest stops are local stops. A few months later, the W was shifted to the local track, where it now provides a more useful service.
I understand your point about having express trains btw. CI and 59th St. Sure, I've waited more times than I could count in cold open stations. So what? That's the price to pay for using the system. And I accept it.
As long as the 4th Avenue corridor is kept true to its design I have no beefs. If that means the R stops along the route only get one train, well, what's so strange about that? With expedient handling of the trains there could be confidence that, at least during rush hours, a rider could be assured of catching an express at 59th or 36th streets. And there's a point about taking the express train over a local that I don't see expressed here that often. Mostly, it isn't the time factor that, IMO, is foremost in most riders minds. It's the thought that you can "assume your position" and not be disturbed with passengers entering and exiting the car. It is also soothing to the mind, and gives (which may be an illusion but has the placebo effect nonetheless) to a rider an impression that he's "making time" as he's (hypothetically) gliding past the local platforms.
This can be very helpful some mornings....
I prefer speed in the evening and comfort in the morning.
I am NOT a morning person, nor am mourning over that fact.
Fred, if you go back and look, the very reason this long freakin' thread got started was I, J-TrainTony, said that the Sea Beach needs expresses. Now, I don't care if it's skip-stop or straight from 59th (B'klyn) to Coney Island, no stops, but the N-Sea Beach in Brooklyn and especially Manhattan (where it USED to be an express and the very HEART of the Broadway line) needs express service. And that's that.
Thanks J-Train Tony. What you said needed to be said and if others don't like it, well, as we say out here, TOUGH TACOS!
Exactly-
The N-Sea Beach was the "big daddy"- the R was the younger brother, providing important service to Bay Ridge, and the QB was the Brighton express, and if you're like me, you remember the N's offspring, the EE...those were the good old days, dead and gone.
J train Tony, the EE never ran to Brooklyn, so you CANNOT classify it as a Sea Beach Line. Second, you forgot the QT and QJ, so you have 3 options on the Brighton line in the good old days (depending of time of day, plus "Sunny Summer Sundays" on the Shuttle to CI), while you had only one for the Sea Beach. Four lines against one, guess who wins for best line in the world?
BTW you managed to get into option #1 in my post #433749, sorry bud. lol
I didn't classify the EE as a Sea Beach line- I called it the "child" of the N-Sea Beach because it was a Broadway local based on the Broadway N express-it started at Continental, like the N.
The QT and the QJ weren't on Broadway, which is why I didn't mention them. Don't get me wrong, the QJ was a great train and I miss it...Jamaica to Coney Island by way of Brighton? Great train.
I mean straight.
I suppose you're right, but maybe ridership is low because the service is low.
Yup. Add an extra 2 trains and put the N on the bridge and you'll see the disparity between Sea Beach and West End ridership dwindle significantly.
BTW, adding an express service is silly.
You're making Fred very happy.
You probably can't add express stations really due to the portals and the crowds wouldn't necessarily warrant a express station but I think its possible & would be interesting.
The skip stop service would be considered before a Sea Beach express but is 2 lines really needed via Sea Beach for skip stop service and would cause longer waits at non 'ab' stations.
As for a express service, it is definitely not needed and would not be justified BUT I thought of one possibility. You could introdce special N's that run express from Stillwell Av to Ditmars Blvd via SB express, 5 would run in the AM, 5 in the PM that's the best you could do.
Well, like I said, rebuilding the line to add express platforms would be too expensive, and I don't think it would make sense financially, besides. The rebuilding necessary wouldn't pay for itself in 1,000 years.
Remember the NX? It ran for about 2 years from 57th/Bway over the bridge and express in Brooklyn, non-stop from 59th to Stillwell, going on to terminate in Brighton Beach. It was about 5 rush hour trains in peak diretcion. It failed miserably.
The NX ran from Nov. 27, 1967 until April 12, 1968 - Good Friday. A fitting day to crucify a line with poor ridership.
While the NX is legendary among railfans, I wonder what it's real purpose was....I would assume to provide a "shortcut" to Broadway for Brighton riders at the southern end of that line (and thus not helpful to Sea Beach riders). There would be 6 stops between Brighton Beach and Canal/Broadway via the NX, as opposed to 8 via the QB. The numbers improve as you get closer to Stillwell. Perhaps riders were blown away by all the changes made on 11/27/67 and were afraid to give the line a chance.
Only 8 stops on the QB between Brighton Beach and Canal? I thought I remembered that the QB was local in Brooklyn (and express in Manhattan).
The QB was local in Brooklyn and was express in Manhattan.
I never rode on an NX although I remember seeing it on the post-Chrystie St. 1967 TA map. It crawled between Brighton Beach and Stillwell Ave., having to share BB with the QB and QJ, compromising any time savings by running nonstop on the Sea Beach line. Lack of ridership doomed it.
I'd certainly try a "skip stop" service between 59th St. and Coney Island. I'd also have a full express run from 59th St. to Coney Island.
#3 West End Jeff
I'm a little late getting to this. I'd run two N services, similiar to what they had on the F - a peak direction express.
N Local - terminates at Kings Highway - all local stops 59th to KH.
N Express - terminates at CI (assuming when it's done) - express 59th to KH - local to CI.
If you bring back express service, they will come back.
They never were there to begin with
Exactly. And besides it STARTED from our Brighton line at Brighton Beach!
You have chosen to ignore the facts brought forth is in this thread. All express service will do is rob Sea Beach passengers of service.
The F has way more riders than the N and plus there's NO stops on the Sea Beach portion of the line, go back a few posts and see why it won't work at this time.
The ridership was never there in the first place. Check out ridership figures for 1927 in www.bmt-lines.com for the statistics.
I disagree totally. I have the MTA ridership figures
In 1967 - there were 9,000,000 annual riders on the Sea Beach. In 1986 when the took the N off the bridge, it was down to to 5,400,000. In 1992, it was down to 4,200,000.
My point is if you improve service, you'll get ridership back. Forget running an express and local from 59th to Coney Island - just put the N back on the Bridge where it belongs.
In 1928 the Sea Beach had 22,204,148 - Compare that to the Brighton which had 45,485,841 in the same year or compare to the West End at 29,498,585 and the Culver at 12,294,321. These statistics did not include Stillwell Ave, which had 12,145,122 in that year.
OK - consider this.
The Sea Beach, for parts of it's route, runs between the West End and the Culver, which would ciphon riders from it.
In 1928, the Culver was still running trains via the 5th Avenue El which would account for the low ridership. It wasn't until 1931 that trains ran to Chambers Street via the Nassau Loop.
I agree!. I would like to see the post 1931 statistics, unfortunately all I was ever able to obtain were the 1927-1928 statistics that I posted to my site. They came from a book that was distributed to the BMT's advertising salesmen. This way they could tell potential clients how many people would view their ads.
I have them up to 1995 at my house. Anything you want to see?
Most of that drop was between 1967 and 1986, when the N was still on the bridge.
And do you have population statistics for the same time periods? If the population near the Sea Beach dropped between 1986 and 1992, one would expect Sea Beach ridership to drop.
"If the population near the Sea Beach dropped between 1986 and 1992, one would expect Sea Beach ridership to drop."
I suspect the drop is related to the destination more than the origin. There has been a huge drop in the garment industry workforce, which was located on 7th Ave and west. Meanwhile, there has been a huge increase in the 6th Ave office workforce.
So, people for whom West End or Culver is pretty nearly as convenient as Sea Beach (and there aren't many people for whom Sea Beach is absolutely the only convenient line) would have started to migrate toward the lines serving 6th Ave.
With new office buildings further west (now that 6th Ave is full up), the trend is probably slowly reversing with Broadway again becoming a tolerably popular destination.
Hey Sea Beach, I have been fulminating about that exact same thing for years but no one seems to be listening at the TA. If those stats are correct, and as a Sea Beach man, how could they be otherwise, then the bridge has to make a big difference. It just seems to make sense. We have to hope that in 2004 we will get our train back where it belongs. Perhaps they can further shock us by making it an express again.
It is moment that I've been waiting for
Actually, another good reason to look at those ridership lists is that you see the old names for a lot of the stations, namely on the Jamaica Line- ststions like Freedom Av, Newark Av., etc. Also, although there were supposedly stations betweem Rockaway Pk. and Canarsie Terminal (namely, Flatlands Ave. and Ave. L) on the Canarsie Line, they are NOT listed.
Follow the Yellow Brick Line to this post as I've posted about Freedom Avenue.
This solidifies my theory that the IND did intentionally include old names in all of its numbered stations, since it shows that the Jamaica El DID use the old names. Apparently I was wrong about 160th and 168th, but I cross-referenced with old maps which did use those names. The names must have been changed before numbering took hold.
36th, 46th and 65th were previously numbered streets of different patterns. 63rd Drive and 67th Avenue were mapped with names, but they weren't built until numbers had been assigned, so the old names would have been useless. This doesn't explain 169th and 179th, but they may not have existed either.
I read that post when you posted it...on the 1928 list, 160th is Newark Ave. and 168th is Cliffside Ave. I'm sure those stations changed names, myself...don't forget, different companies owned those els before the BRT took them all over, it's no stretch to assume when a company took over an el, they changed the station name if the street names or numbers changed...hell, we've seen this in OUR lifetime. MTA has changed the station names on maps more than once, if not the whole name, parts of names..B'way Junction/East NY comes to mind.
Wow, those are great statistics. Thanks for posting that. When I see that and think of current ridership patterns, I have to say, "Go Bowery, Go, Atlantic/L". Bowery had double the passengers that Canal/Nassau had! Some of the stations with little ridership today, seemed like fairly major stations in the 20's.
Also of interest is that they called Forest Ave on the M line Forest (Madison Street). The Madison exit was closed in the 70's, but many stations had at least two entrances, and they weren't included in the stations neam. I wonder why they did that there. In fact, it seems like the one of only a few stations that has that. Most of the Jamaica Avenue J stations had two exits and the second entrance isn't mentioned on those. Most of the other stations with () names are former names for numbered replacements (like Greenwood Ave-111th Street. Although a few on the Sea beach also have the 2nd exits mentioned.
Also interestingly, the Lexington Ave El is listed as the "major" el instead of the Myrtle El. The stations on Myrtle that both Myrtle and Lexington trains used are listed under Lexington Ave, not Myrtle.
Yes, there is lots of interesting history and information for every BMT lover on that site.
Yeah I wonder why so many second exits are closed on the Jamaica line, and the funny thing is that they weren't torn down. They say "Use other side of platform for exit". Is there any plan in the future to utilize those closed stairways? Some of the Brighton line stations had second exits as well but they were long closed and/or demolished.
Most of the abandoned exits on Jamaica Ave have been removed (as well as the ones on the M line). For some reason they do still exist at many of the Broadway El stations. When the renovations were done, they even extended the canopies over the stairways to the abandoned exits on Broadway. I wonder why.
That's what I'm trying to figure out myself. If they were completely rebuilt but not used, then there has to be a purpose for doing so.
Some of the Brighton line stations had second exits as well but they were long closed and/or demolished.
Really? Where? I can see stairs leading down from the Coney Island-bound platform that would have provided an exit to the other side of the street at J, M and U. Is that what you're talking about?
The one at H is still open, exit only. It actually to the middle of Avenue H, which dead-ends at the tracks.
Here's the one at J:
Yes, I'm talking about those 3 stations with closed exits toward the back of the stations; Avenue H's second exit is still open. And I think Newkirk Av had a second mezzanine once but I'm not sure.
There is also one on the Manhattan bound platform at Neck Road, evidence of it at least.
Has anybody figured out why that station name is missing a word? The actual street is Gravesend Neck Road.
Not that many Neck Roads left in New York City now that Flatlands Neck Road is part of Kings Highway.
If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, that's evidence of the old LIRR station.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&item=2152519115&category=4152
>>>When you use buy it now and pay 99 cents from (from your bank account only) from your paypal account, I will e-mail you a link to the best New York subway system website. This website has some great old and new photos of the subway, not to mention some great historical in formation on the old elevated lines, the openings of subways, plans that were made in the past for new subway service that was never passed. Also information on remnants of old subway lines you can visit, plus much, much more. You will really like this website and it is worth the 99 cents, You have my guarantee. If you are a fan of the New York City subway, you will love this site.<<<
>>When you use buy it now and pay 99 cents from (from your bank account only) from your paypal account
ER..Isn't the New York subway system website was<<
Comment: I dunno, this fishy to me.
>>I will e-mail you a link to the best New York subway system website<<
Comment: Aren't these links are best New York subway system website that has some great old and new photos of the subway, not to mention some great historical in formation on the old elevated lines, the openings of subways, plans that were made in the past for new subway service that was never passed?
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/index.html
Http://WWW.NYCSUBWAY.ORG
http://www.nycrail.com/
>>>You will really like this website and it is worth the 99 cents, You have my guarantee<<<<
Comments: Now I just gave you best New York subway system website, Can I have my $O.99
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&item=2152519115&category=4152
>>>When you use buy it now and pay 99 cents from (from your bank account only) from your paypal account, I will e-mail you a link to the best New York subway system website. This website has some great old and new photos of the subway, not to mention some great historical in formation on the old elevated lines, the openings of subways, plans that were made in the past for new subway service that was never passed. Also information on remnants of old subway lines you can visit, plus much, much more. You will really like this website and it is worth the 99 cents, You have my guarantee. If you are a fan of the New York City subway, you will love this site.<<<
>>When you use buy it now and pay 99 cents from (from your bank account only) from your paypal account
ER..Isn't the New York subway system website was<<
Comment: I dunno, this is sounds quite fishy to me.
>>I will e-mail you a link to the best New York subway system website<<
Comment: Aren't these links are best New York subway system website that has some great old and new photos of the subway, not to mention some great historical in formation on the old elevated lines, the openings of subways, plans that were made in the past for new subway service that was never passed?
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/index.html
Http://WWW.NYCSUBWAY.ORG
http://www.nycrail.com/
>>>You will really like this website and it is worth the 99 cents, You have my guarantee<<<<
Comments: Now I just gave you best New York subway system website, Can I have my $O.99
This has been discussed at length on these 2 threads:
Talk about chutzpah!!!
and
Buy a Link to This Site!
Why don't you just go into the auction page, e-mail the bidders, and tell them about this site?? :-)
Because:
1) eBay has set it up that you must be a registered user (buyer or seller) in order to be able to send an email to a participant in an auction. If you are not registered then you won't be able to get their email addresses.
2) eBay has a rule that no one may interfere with an auction. That means we (registered users) will lose our accounts if we do anything
that can have an adverse effect on the the auction. In most cases this means contacting the bidders.
I have already contacted eBay and complained but, true to form, they are doing nothing (not even responding to me within the prescribed 12 to 36 hours). The only saving grace is that almost no one is bidding.
>>> I have already contacted eBay and complained <<<
What did you complain about? What is the seller doing wrong, assuming he provides the information to anyone who sends the 99˘?
Many people make money as private investigators locating information available to the public on the internet and in public records. This is information that their clients could find themselves if they took the time and effort to look for it themselves. Do you find something morally wrong with what they do? If not, how do you differentiate between them and this seller of information?
Tom
Tom,
Why do you keep defending this miscreant?
Would you like it if I went on ebay and offered to sell people your email address and call it "A link to a real railfan"? I mean it is rather "Public" to anyone who posts here.
Of course you wouldn't. Well the same goes for websites.
The more I look at that auction I keep getting reminded of the standard movie plot in which someone has the information but will only give it up for a price (for some reason Sidney Greenstreet in Casblanca pops into my head).
I don't agree with your private investigator analogy. These links are not missing that they have to be found. Why do you think there are search engines like Yahoo, Alta Vista etc.?
I also don't buy into the excuse that that auction would help people who just got a new computer. They had to have some idea of what to do if they were able to get to ebay, register to bid etc.
I cannot see anything that justifies what he is doing.
>>>Would you like it if I went on ebay and offered to sell people your email address and call it "A link to a real railfan"? I mean it is rather "Public" to anyone who posts here<<<
I would, I name it "THE GOOD OLD TOM" item #14658790 $0.99
>>> Would you like it if I went on ebay and offered to sell people your email address and call it "A link to a real railfan"? I mean it is rather "Public" to anyone who posts here. <<<
There is an obvious difference there. An e-mail address is different than a web site. If I had a web site, there would be absolutely no objection by me to you charging people to learn about it.
>>> I cannot see anything that justifies what he is doing. <<<
What justifies what he is doing is the free market. He has information to sell. The fact that it is common information gives it a very low value, and he is selling it at a low price. He is not falsely advertising it in any way, nor is he forcing anyone to purchase it. How does that make him a miscreant?
I would agree with your antipathy to what he is doing if he implied he had secret or inside information not available elsewhere to sell, or if the price were exorbitant ($99.00 instead of 99˘), but as it is, I cannot fathom the basis for a complaint to E-Bay.
Tom
Randy Kennedys LATEST MUSINGS.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm glad to see that Randy is back. I liked the last poem about the much maligned rat.
As soon as I get tired of taking pictures of third rail arcing, I'm going to start taking pictures of subway rats. That should be challenging, as they don't run on schedule. I can imagine some great shots. Q train waiting behind a red signal while large rodent crosses in front of it.
Has any railfan done much rail rat photography? Has a rat ever been seen on a subway car in service? Has any trackworker taken any shots of rats seen along the right of way? Has Transit Transit ever done a segment on rats? Are there any pictograph signs warning customers not to litter with a large bloated rat in the background?
<<<...I'm going to start taking pictures of subway rats.<<<
Just hang out in front of 370 Jay or Livingston Plaza. You should see lots of them, especially around lunch hour...8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks Andee... I'll have to check that location out.
I found an interesting Newsday article about the effect a transit strike would have had on the resident subway rat population.
strike effect on rats
Has the ERA ever had a slideshow devoted to rats?
You should have no problem finding a spot at either Whitehall St or Court St station to take great shots of those rodents in action. Who knows, one might say "Cheese" as you take their picture, get it?
Ha!
There is one photo of a subway cat (was it in Randy Kennedy's column, or in Newsday?)
EXCELLENT idea ... we can find out if it's true about the hole the SeaBits runs in. Maybe we can organize a "rat tagging" party where graf artists can do their best on a rat. Maybe a banner on the main page here. I think you're ON to something here. :)
Loved the verse as well ...
Excellent stuff! I had a few LOL's.
Ode to the F Train was especially good.
In a search on Google for disgusting pictures of subway rats that I could post and ruin everyone's breakfast with, I found this unusual website, which has the script for a movie called "The Rats". Click on "Script" on the bottom.
screenplay for the "The Rats"
If it hasn't been filmed yet, I wonder if they would be interested in some of my stock footage of arcs.
After much personal deliberation, and some very astute (that means intelligent, for those that don't know) input from GP38, Sea Beach Fred, and a few others, I have decided on what I am SURE would be a major service improvement:
A. Get rid of the V. Run the M from Metropolitan, through the Chrystie St. connection, up 6 Av, through 63rd, and on Queens Blvd. to Forest Hills. Hours of operation: 6 a.m. to 12 p.m., Monday to Friday, and 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. Saturday and Sunday.
B. The J will run from Jamaica Center, through Nassau St. over the Manhattan Bridge (I would have preferred Montague St., but my paisan Fred won't go for it), and down the Sea Beach to Coney Island.
Hours of operation: 24/7
Thank you.
Looks like thanks to you and Fred; Fulton Street and Broad Street will be permanetly closed, and how long do riders have to wait for the J line to relay back over towards the Bridge? This plan sorry to say is D.O.A. becuase it has Fred's stamp of approval on it.
Part A works. The V and the various options for it to use the unused portion of the Chrystie connection are nice possibilities.
I don't know about part B though. The J's run in Manhattan would be even less than it is now! This is why the Nassau Line's ridership is as low as it is. What would serve Fulton and Broad Street?
Well, as I said, I would much prefer it to run through Nassau St. and through the Montague tunnel. I only said the bridge because of Sea Beach Fred.
So the J and M operate in giant loops. Interesting.
Wouldn't you have to close some stations to do this? I think some people might be unhappy with you...
I'm all for sending the V to Metro Av, which means:
1) sending weekday J's to the West End Line
2) F & V swap tunnels
3) E & V swap equipment (yes, 8-car R32's to Metro Avenue)
4) A few R143's in the cycle would become OPTO M-shuttles nites and weekends
5) no nite and weekend service east of Queensbridge.
E & V swap equipment (yes, 8-car R32's to Metro Avenue)
Before their rebuild, I do remember riding R32's on the M line in the early to mid 80's. It would be interesting to see them there again.
5) no nite and weekend service east of Queensbridge.
????
I don't know about that.
I also remember an occasinal R38 on the M line too. Subway car models tend to go just about every line during its 30-40 year lifespan.
Let me get in on this
In response to A--> Ok the V is starting to get more and more passengers, you're taking away extra local service from the 6 Av line and you expect the E to take ALL the passengers via 53 St, can't happen. Running the M in a loop is rather interesting but it may backfire. Should of put more depth and a little more thought in this.
In response to B--> And what about Fulton and Broad Sts? You would then have to make the Z a expanded service [which it does need] running to Broad St and it has to run all day weekdays to replace J service there [luckily these two stations aren't open weekends]. Should of put more depth into this as well.
How is Southbound J on the Nassau line in from Jamaica Center supposed to find its way over the Manhattan Bridge?
Exactly. The Nassau loop is no longer in existence, if you rebuild it though then it could work but overall, I think the plans are so-so.
I think it'd only take a little track laying, not any rebuilding as such. The alternate plan, which I actually prefer, is the Montague tunnel. As far as so-so plans go, I haven't worked out all the kinks yet-mostly it'd be when to run what services-those are the main two lines that I'd run, there might be a few rush-hour and late night changes, otherwise, I've seen PLENTY of so-so stuff from the TA itself, I don't see why my plan is any more so-so than any other. :)
In my opinion, Chrystie St. was a major step forward, they sure blew THAT all to hell. Big mistake, says I.
I do agree that not using the Chrystie connector is stupid and would provide a one seat ride to Midtown. If you had the Nassau loop, then it could work but its destroyed so you can't do it.
This morning, I woke up to the very distinctive high-pitched sound of a Budd M-1's air horn. Only, of course, I'm in Kansas City MO, not Long Island, and it was, presumably, a freight train (though I'm probably hearing 2 Amtraks a day, too - but they don't mount that kind of horn).
I'm disoriented enough as it is...
Hey, stay away from those mushrooms...8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Or would you call them...
H(oYo)TERS?
LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
Sounds like a sick horn. I have heard freight engine horns with those type of horns. Although if you are here on Long Island, the C3 cab cars have a two tone style horn. 5001, and 5017 have a deep one-tone, while 5013 has the sick M1 style horn when you hear it. Hope the LIRR fixes those horns.
Most M1's/M3's sound that way. A very few have a deep-tone to them.
In contrast, all the MUs on the Metro-North services have horns with deeper pitches.
LIRR's M-1's have Leslie S44 single-note horns.
Metro-North's have Leslie S-2M two-chime horns (which consist of the same single-note trumpet as the S44, plus a lower one). These are the same horns as on the LIRR M-3's as delivered (though many have been switched around to M-1's.)
LIRR cab cars were also delivered with the Leslie S-2M two-chimes, but as they get used more, acquire more road grit, they tend to sound different. Leslie horns are pure garbage.
I've gotten used to that sound.
Which horns are used on NJT Arrow III's, Comet II, III, IV, and V?
The arrows have Wabco AA-2 bells like the NYCTA Locomotives and PATH cars.
The arrows have Wabco AA-2 bells like the NYCTA Locomotives and PATH cars.
The horns on LIRR's M-1's are a single-note Leslie "S44" model horn.
The note produced by that horn is made by the "44" trumpet bell on any Leslie horn -- which Union Pacific has PLENTY of. That particular trumpet is a component of the S3LR three-chime and S5TR five-chime that has been in prolific use on UP for decades now.
All you heard was a plugged up Leslie horn on a loco.
Thank you.
It made me a little homesick.
I'd love to hear an MP-54 whistle on an M-1.
Bill "Newkirk"
What is your favorite New York City subway rolling stock model...
My favorite are...
1) The R-1/9 models, specially when they operated on the E, F, EE, GG
2) The R-40 slant nose original versions
3) The R-36 World's Fair cars. (There was something "magical" about them as they were signed at the front end "World's Fair or "Times Square"; remember those metal circular antennas?!)
4) The R-38 experimental with a/c
5) The BMT Standards when working on the "L"
1.R-68/68A
2.R-46
3.R-110B
4.R-1/9
5.R-10
6.R-110A
Quiz, they all have something in common, it is the main reason I like them, what is it?
Peace,
ANDEE
Bucket seats?
Oohps, R1-10 won't work with that.....
No...but they do all have that perpendicular seating arrangement, the R110A being the only IRT R-series car class to have it. Maybe that's the thread...but then he didn't include the R16 or R44.
:-) Andrew
Hmmm, I think that is the answer. He may just not like the R16 or R44. I thought it may have something to do with the seats.
Give the man a kewpie doll. Perpedicular seating is the correct answer. I did not include the R16 because of its wierd door pocket arrangement (rough on the head, IYNWIM). I did not include the R-44 because of its carbon steel band.
Peace,
ANDEE
Then you should really have liked the perpendicular seating on the BMT Standards. They were the only NYC subway cars that I know of that had the 2 and 3 seats across sort of like the LIRR cars.
True, Jeff, I would've loved them. But, being a Bronx boy I never had the pleasure.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sarge loved the Standards; well that is his right. I loved the Triplex. How many of you out there remember them? And how many of you have ever rode on one. They were something.
Perchance do you like any current rolling stock?
I see you call yourself "#4", so I gather you're an IRT fan (just play along with me, folks!) So do you like the R62 then? I'm sensing that you must be a liberal.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:-D Andrew
fRED GOES BACK TO THE 4 sEA bEACH lINE, LIKE i GO BACK TO THE 1 bRIGHTON lINE, BOTH RAN WITH tRIPLEX UNTIL THE 60S.
The Brighton had the Triplexes into the 60s. By the late 50s, BMT standards had taken over on the Sea Beach again, having gone full circle.
I still kick myself for not seeing any Triplexes back in July of 1965.
Stop kicking yourself and get your ass back to New York when they have a Triplex field trip next summer. As far as the Standards are concerned I got the bad news that they replaced the Triplex on the Sea Beach in 1963. A few may of run earlier from time to time, but mostly the Sea Beach used the Triplex through 1962. Remember, I am the William Padron of the Triplex----sort of.
One of these days, Alice, one of these days....
I've heard Mr. K is older than we are, so he should know the score. If he reads this post I will answer the part of his question that was legit that I failed to answer. The current rolling stock is headed by the R-32's. That is my favorite by far. Second I like the Slant 40's, but neither one of them would make a good scab on the Triplexes rear end, if you get my point.
I've heard Mr. K is older than we are
I'm 31.
:-) Andrew
I'm twice your age. Show proper respect.
twice the age and 5xs more ornary, well to the point, may favorite rolling stock
1-Triplex
2-standards
3-Q Cars
4-Gate Cars
5-Hi-Volts
6-R 15-loved the original colors
7-Slants R-40
8-SIRT Standards
9-R 1-9
Least Favorite
R-10
You inadvently made Fred's day, his favorite model is the D Type Triplex, and that's at the top of your list. Now we don't want that to happen, do we?
Well, isn't that something. We agree on the NO. 1 car. Amazing.
we always had on the Triplex, You Right Wing So and So
Fred wants his NY Post (a right-wing, anti-union, conservative newspaper) delivered to his home. That's why he is always right about his Sea Beach and I'm right about our Brighton Line, Bob. Fact is, one line runs 24/7 to Manhattan, the other line gets stranded in Brooklyn on nights and weekends.
Good post Kool-D, but you ought to check with my friend Bob on something. Anti Union? I was a proud member of the American Federation of Teachers (AFL-CIO) for 30 years, and am a strong union man. There are Republicans who are strong union supporters; you just don't hear too much about us because on that score we are an embarrasment to the GOP establishment. Of course, we agree on most other matters so they look the other way on our heresy in this regard.
Fred is younger than Karl B.
You forgot the Brightliners, a former mainstay of the Brighton Express and the only rolling stock ever made that was worthy of replacing the Triplexes.
And we in our early 30's are only fortunate enough to still remember the pre-war IND's on the "F" and K" lines near the end (I didnt get out to the Eastern BMT branch much with the family) Ho Hum, but my favorite memories have to be the Slants on the "F" and "A" lines!!!!
Tony
Well, Fred, you and I at least agree as per current rolling stock, the Brightliners being the best of the current fleet. Now, I've never made it to New York to the nostalgia specials and I missed riding a Triplex by several months. But I'll allow you a lot of slack here, because the facts were given, the Triplex had the greatest passenger capacity. It has been attested to that the Triplexes could devour huge crowds. That ability may not have been needed on the Sea Beach but it was sorely needed on the Brighton Express.
By God, you really tried to pull my chain on that one Mr. K. Nice try. You are old enough and can read, so you know the score. And I'm LMAO at your transparent attempt to get me riled. No harm in trying.
I was thinking about removing the Slow Beach express tracks, dumping garbage on the former express ROW, making the (N) a permanent local even after the Manny B is fully open, and making it a Slow Beach Shuttle all times except rush hours. The (R) would be made a 4th Ave/Manny B/Broadway Express. HAHAHAHAHAHAH!
:-D Andrew
Your jokes are about as corny as your ........ Well, have a good day anyway and better luck next time. See you on the Sea Beach when it goes over the bridge again.
Geez, Unca Fred ... stop pulling an Ashcroft ... show the kids that Republicans CAN have a sense of humor, however briefly. :)
In your dreams.
True, Fred, like I said, (I'm a poet and I didn't know it) IF I had been exposed to them, I most likely would've loved them.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'll second that.
The Triplex Fan Trip last Memorial Day was a real gasser. I got the railfan window when we made the final jaunt down the Sea Beach tracks late in the day. In fact, the guy in charge whose name I can't remember (sorry, I think it was Bill something or other) couldn't decide if they were going on the West End of Sea Beach tracks. I said if he couldn't make up his mind to let me off at the next stop because there was no way I was taking the Triplex on the West End. It was bad enough the train was carrying a #1 instead of a #4. He decided to pacify me and we went the Sea Beach route with my new found buddy El Marko Feinman sharing the railfan window. Quite a day.
Hey Fred,
It was Bill Wall, the project manager for the "March of Dimes"
excursions. Better know as Branford's "Trademeister". You
wanna buy some antique rolling stock with steel wheels, contact
us, we'll put on track with "RayGing" Car Sales.
;-) Sparky
I had a dream the other night that I was on an N train running nonstop on the Sea Beach express track. Only it wasn't a Triplex train, but a consist of shiny new R-32s. 1965 all over agin...
R-32's are a great car and so your dream has a lot of merit. Remember, I didn't even know R-32's existed because I had been out of New York for 20 years at one time. Besides, I thought the Triplex would last forever. How naive of me, huh?
Had fate been kinder, the Triplexes would have lasted much, much longer than they did. And had fate been kinder to me, I would have seen them on those two days before they prematurely rode off into the sunset.
Interestingly enough, I rode on another N train the first time we visited the city after moving to Jersey. It was on April 30, 1967. Once again it was a train of R-32s.
WERE something? Some still ARE! We get that distinct pleasure every time we take a ride on the Nostalgia Special. The remaining D-Types are indeed wonders, 74 years young. God Bless.
wayne
It's just too bad these specials occur usually once a year. Too many people haven't even ridden one to appreciate their elegance and power.
They made their last stand on the Canarsie line at 14 St and the upper Myrt. This Bronx boy rode them a few times and didn't really care for them all that much. The seat arrangements seemed done more to corral people to groups of doors (must have been VERY efficient) and make it difficult to get to others in the same car with those seat-back chokepoints. Still, their rich history and long life on the system certainly earns them my respect even if I didn't think they were the neatest thing on rails. I liked the Q cars MUCH more ...
I didn't care for the BMT standards back then, either. I thought they were just plain ugly. Riding on them was cruel and unusual punishment. No wonder I always looked forward to bailing at Union Square and enjoying a nice, fast express sprint up Broadway on an N train.
Thought they were ugly? They were rancid looking, just hideous to the eye. Besides I had to get on one when I took the 4th Avenue Local to Times Square, and then back on the final journey back home to Long Island City. It was just a pisser looking at those ugly looking excuses for cars. Perhaps the fact that they part of the 4th Avenue Local made it worse than it was, perhaps not. All I know that I couldn't wait to get to Times Square to take the Sea Beach, or the Brighton if I was going to see the Dodgers play.
No matter what you guys think, my foundest memories of the
BMT Standards are of Summer Service on Franklin to Coney Island,
as 3 car expresses on Brighton trackage. This was prior to the
IND recapturing the Culver.
Also the unmodified standards that still had the non operational
cabs, as a two seater. Hey I'm a Brooklyn boy and didn't have
rubber to visit the pasion pit. But coped many a feel under a
sweater on a BMT Standard. It was called petting in them days.
Also what you touched was real, not purchased. But once, in a
fervent moment, the YL had forgotten, she was enhancing her shelve
that day, when I removed the piece and was slapped harshly, while
she turned redder then a redboid. Ah those were the days.
As for woodies, the Qs were nice, but I still liked the gates my
favorite. BUs on Myrtle & Manhattan's on the Dyre Avenue
Shuttle with on board fare collection by the C/R.
Speaking of rancid and hideous, it was the BMT C types.
But, still liked the Multi's on the BMT 13 & 16, and of course the
all time favorite the arnines, 3 cars on the "GG" except rush hours
six cars and snowy weather, when they ran with eight cars. Also
remember 11 car F of arnines with two C/Rs in peak service.
Or the invasion of QB by the Standards on the Brighton Local.
Coney Island to Continental Avenue.
;-)Sparky
The R62A. The first subway I rode by myself was the (1), back in 1987, on my way to see my first love. It didn't work out at all, but the R62A gives me a nostalgic twinge. I'm glad they're now in Queens on the (7). And I also do think they're about the best looking trains in NYC.
:-) Andrew
Here's my top 5:
1. R32
2. R33/36WF
3. R40
4. R68A
5. R42
R32, the best subway car of all time IMO. After the GOH it lost some attractiveness on the exterior but a heavy duty subway car, excellent A/C, bright interior just the best.
R33/36WF the best IRT car, especially with the Bluebird scheme, still rolling after 40 years as Redbirds now.
My favorites are:
R22, R17, R16, R27/30, R36, R33( both main line and WF), R14/12, R15, R32, R38, R46, R40, R40m, R42, R10, R62, R62a, and R142a.
I especially like the Main Line R36's a little more because they were the last GOH main line redbirds to have the side and storm doors painted orange before changing them to red. Also loved that "puff" sound when the doors closed. I can still get this on the 7, but loved it more on the ol' 6 train. I wonder why they didn't keep the insides of the doors orange anymore?
That good old puff, or "khaah", was the variable load valve, on cars from R10 to R36, K-Cars too. Load sensors replaced them. Here is what they sounded like, they are retired by now unless they are still running WH R36s. The GE R30s had their rheostats and variable load valves modified but not replaced, and even included electronics but were still triggered by closed SLR relays. RCI Peter wasn't around with us long enough to truly appreciate the lollypop.
R27
R10
I can't seem to access the sound link. Where can I go to hear them?
Magnet valve of the Arnines is up there as well ... 1689 got WAY too much of that treatment last fall. :)
OK, as you wish.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ... dang, just stained my pants. :)
I'll take that over a 10 or 27 *any* day. Thanky!
OK, as you wish.
How about an R-1/9 load sensing valve sound?
He has it ... I'm sure you've already caught it ... click on the teeny tiny arnine in his post. I had to ask, ya know. I've heard it sufficient times in real life. :)
Sounds an awful lot like an excerpt from Heypaul's Canarsie tape. The doors sound like 1689's doors. The doors on the R-1s and R-4s sounded different when they closed.
Picky picky picky ... :)
Moo.
I wonder if they still make those rubber duck calls ... place one over the air valve and you'll get yours, bucko. :)
Funny you should mention that. I have a bird whistle that sounds like a duck's quack if you manipulate it right.
Next I suppose you'll want to rig up 1689 so that it goes moo.:)
Hot water bottle with a 2 inch slit does an EXCELLENT job of it. Back when I did the TA, there was a wiseguy in the car shop that would whip one onto the pipe stem and pull. It came VERY close to the right sound. I used to carry a "squeakey-beak" hat with me in my coat pocket, and I'd take off my TA issue, whip that on in the crew room and squeak it at my coworkers much like I did with the wooden whistle at Branford. Railroading is REAL work, when you step down, most people like to have a little fun. Until you get caught and written up. :)
Now all you need to do is stick your head out of the cab window on 1689 and yell neener-neener.:)
I *did* stick my head out and blow my wooden meatwhistle at some trespassers ... that's gonna have to do it. "Neener-neener" is reserved ONLY for PA use when da bingadabongada don't work. :)
I have one of those wooden whistles, too. Next time we can play duets.:)
One alone left Unca Jeff in the confusatorium. He'll be hiding in the pit when the Wabash Cannonball blows by outside. Yeah, let's do it! :)
It'll be interesting to see if the pitches match. Of course, if they're not in tune with each other, it would sound pretty funny.
Well, with the proper fingering, we can probably make it sound like a runaway calliope. :)
I don't think that Arnines had the load sensing valve like Redbirds.
I can operate any kind of machinery....cars, trucks, tractors, aircraft. The Arnine was at first a little difficult to handle...everything seemed to operate backwards. Brake package is not self-lapping and requires constant hands-on unless you have confidence and experience like Unca Kev. Frankly, I cannot fathom how anyone can hear load sensing valves in operation unless you get a lot of fat people jogging in your car....the load sensor valve covers only one truck. CI Peter
Sure did ... just a different design. We'll have to drag your skeevy butt underneath next time to check it out. It was working just dandy. Every time I closed up, it was there, loud and proud. They called them "magnet valves" back then, but the purpose was the same. And they usually weren't as finicky as your rotbirds. Heh.
Don't gimme this about not being around 'lollypops' GSB. I can't count how many times I was called for 'troubles' and wanted to shove the 1.425 inch nylon wedge up someones butt. You never saw me doing variable load valve adjustment by myself on top of a filthy/dirty/nasty/lovable Redbird truck.....I do my own work undercar. So you wedge in and out....pressure gauge comes up with different readings everytime....and you know that the brake valve is bad. You get a replacement valve and the wrong gasket...you go crazy.
Pull it...use the old gasket...mess with the load sensor till you get 15/80 or something close. I've learned Redbirds...don't know everything. SMS rebuilds we're getting have many loose group box connections. Tomorrow it's Redbird Propulsky. I always run the pair for indication and braking even if it is not my job. Take a shoe paddle between the pressure gauge and the wall to jam the deadman down, use your cheater to release the brakes, jump down really fast and kick the riggings in the pair to check for release. Redbirds are really good learning trains and will soon be gone.
CI Peter is OnTheJuice and InTheHole
I have to say my all time favorite cars were definitely the R1-9's. I grew up on them as a kid when the IND was nothing but them and the R-10's. However I must say I loved ALL the pre-war trains. When I started to railfan solo in the late 60's I would spend a whole day riding on the Standards on the Canarsie Line, the "Q"s on Myrtle, and the World's Fair Low V's on 3rd Av in the Bronx. I also spent some time on the Franklin & Culver Shuttles. As a young kid in the late 50's early 60's I rode mostly with my grandparents. I don't remember the Low V's at all as we never used the IRT till after they were all replaced. I'm not sure if I ever rode the Triplexes but since my grandmother lived along the Sea Beach & an aunt along the Brighton I'm sure I must have. As a toddler I probably confused them with the Arnines.
My least favorite cars: Probably the R10's as I was disappointed whenever I rode one that it wasn't an Arnine. I never liked the types of fans they had nor the destination signs above the windows. The R11's were "UGLY" with the four round windows on the doors. The only post Low/high-V IRT cars I liked were the blue and white Flushing Line cars.
Buses: Macks have a slight edge over the old style GM's.
The R10s never disappointed, escpecially when they moved (LONG DOWNLOAD)
Jeff,
The R/11s and the R/16s with their round windows reminded me of the fake ports on the Buicks of the '50s.
An attempt to make a chevy or pontiac something it wasn't.
It seemed a change to give the feeling of improvement.
They did influence later designs, but the round door windows were not improvements.
avid
Here is my choice:
retired, all-time: Low- V
Active:
First place R142/143
Second Place- R44/46
Third place: R62/68
Favorite all time: R16
Favorite current 60' car: R42
Favorite current 75' car: R46
Favorite IRT car: R36WF
Favorite overall: R46
Most hated current car: R38
Most hated all time car: R10
My favorite subway car is the R-134, because it doesn't deplete the Ozone.
Mines is.........
1)R44/46
2)R143
3)R38
4)R32
5)R68
-AcelaExpress2005
My favorite is somewhat connected to adolescent memories too. In the late 70's I rode the Sea Beach Line a lot when the R-46s were new, and the speedometers actually worked. I'm a speed fiend and some of the rides up 4th Avenue are to date the fastest I've had on the system. In my opinion, they were vastly superior cars to the R-44 in ride comfort, speed and overall appeal.
Close runner-up are the Standards due to their innovation and the fact that I'm a huge Brighton Line fan.
I'm not old enough to have ridden the Multi's, but from the descriptions I've heard, they might well have topped my list.
BMT Standard
BMT Type D triplex
R1
and R32.
I love them all.
Current in-service car classes, roughly from favorite to least favorite in four categories:
Ride quality (if seated): R-33ML, R-62A, R-38, R-62, R-42, R-68A, R-36, R-32, R-33WF, R-68, R-46, R-44, R-40/40M, R-142, R-143, R-142A.
Ride quality (if standing): R-33ML, R-36, R-33WF, R-38, R-32GE, R-42CI, R-62A, R-62, R-42(rest), R-142, R-143, R-142A, R-40/40M, R-68A, R-68, R-32(rest), R-46, R-44.
Railfannability: R-33WF (on railfan excursions; otherwise it's in the middle of the train), R-33ML, R-36, R-38, R-32GE, R-62A single, R-42, R-40M, R-40, R-32(rest), R-62A(rest), R-62, R-44, R-142, R-143, R-142A, R-68A, R-46, R-68.
Exterior aesthetics: R-33ML/36ML, R-33WF/36WF, R-42, R-38, R-32GE, R-32(rest) (only at an angle), R-62/62A, R-40, R-143, R-46, R-68/68A, R-40M, R-44, R-142A, R-142.
Favorites (by aesthetics):
R42, R110B, R40, R33, R62/62A
Favorites (general)
R10, R42, R40, R38, R33, R16
Dislikes
R68/68A, R40M, R142
Honorable mention:
R38 - Great looking cars BEFORE the rebuild. Would be between R33 and R62 in my aesthetic favorites if they were never rebuilt.
i would have to say,there are hot cars out there,but here are my top 5
subway cars:
1.R32 the body of the car looks good,i like the black flooring too and
a good AC too.
2.R40 i like the slant nose it has,and the only subway car to have it.
3.R42 to me the hottest looking subway car,it got good ac,a a good ride and a railfanwindow.
4.R68 the only 75,footers that i like,a soomth ride and good seats too
5.R143 a soomth ride,and a good ac,only thing i don,t like about these
cars is the wine sound they make as they start a run.
i also like the R46,but only because they are better then the R44,and
a sommth ride too.
til next time
Mine are:
SPV 2000, Arrow III, Comet II, III, IV, and V, and Budd RDC.
Also like M1-M6 mu's.
Dislike all ACMU's on Metro North.
Favorite Locomotives:
FL9, FL9AC, ALP44, F40CAT, GP40( all series), U34-CH, DE30 and DM30 for LIRR.
Dislike: E60CP, P32DM, ALP46
50/50: GG-1, SW1500
My favorites...
R40 Slants
R32
R142A
R143
any railfan window 1/2 operator cab type of rolling stock !
& no transverse cab equipped car .....none of em !!
R62A's - Sleek for me.
R36 - The Blue/Silver scheme owns this Redbirds crap.
R40 Slants - What's cooler than Slants? The safety stuff the MTA added is dumb, though.
1. Tossup between the R-1/9s and R-10s.
2. R-32s as delivered.
3. Slants
4. Redbirds.
5. Anything else with a railfan window.
triplexes and the r/8s
avid
Avid ... you got to ride the MONEY CAR? Wowsers! Tell us more! (just teasing, bro)
Good they still make good use of those R1-10 series cars, though most of them are scrap anyway.
Great jumpin' Jehoshaphat! Is that a silver IRT oldtimer on the right. Heavens to Betsy!!
Yep, a nice LoV ... Arnine to the left ... if Branford could have gotten its hands on the R8A there, the guys would have a dream train. Only way to get the Branford "revenue collector" onto such a consist would be Van Dorns out the butt ...
The paint of course would have to be stripped. Agh.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Oh Kevin,
You brung tears to my hunters green eyes!
The only other photos I remember was from the book with all the "R/" cars R/1 thru R/110 A&B"s
Excuse me while I go back and stare at it for awhile.
avid
P.S. No I never did ride it. Only in my moist fantasies!
Heh. I'm still trying to find a way to get my hands on that car and ship it off to folks who would appreciate it, and maintain it and walk it every day, and water it and kiss it and run it behind 1689. The R8A was a rather interesting car, and sadly, I got to peer INTO it, but was never allowed ON it, same for the "drill motor" that I similarly got to stare at in CIY, but was not worthy. And I WORKED for the bastards! :)
But yeah, upstate, that'd make for a LOVELY home. Even better somewhere where it could gallop again ...
The were not as long as the passanger cars. Anyone know their length?
avid
Uh ... let's see ... "Each subway car is 72 feet long, weighs 72,000 pounds and costs $150,000. There are 44 seats and standing room for 136. I close the rear first, then the front, look back, then front again to make sure nobody gets dragged, then I remove my key and pass indication to the motorman up front." :)
Hmmm, let's see now....
Favorite NYC Transit subway car-rolling stock:
1. R-10's.
2. R-1/9's.
3. R-12/14's.
Favorite NYC Transit subway routes-lines:
1. IND: "A" Washington Heights-8th Avenue Express.
2. IRT: #1 Broadway-7th Avenue Local.
3. BMT: "J" Jamaica-Broadway Brooklyn-Nassau Street Line.
Those are my choices and only response to this thread here!!!
-William A. Padron
(currently thinking about "The $20,000 Pyramid")
One additional entry in each category included:
Favorite NYC Transit subway car-rolling stock:
4. R-15's.
Favorite NYC Transit subway routes-lines:
4. IRT: #5 Dyre Avenue-Lexington Avenue Express.
Now, I am definitely finished!!!
-William A. Padron
(still thinking about "The $20,000 Pyramid").
I could have guessed what your favorite car was!:) It's almost a loaded question for most of us.
Hey! He ALSO said R1/9's ... looks like he's beginning to cave. :)
Wiliam is MISTER R-10, hands down. He is the reason I didn't take the Mr. R-10 handle for myself.
Needles to say, you know how I feel about those Thunderbirds. The only reason the R-1/9s didn't win hands down in my book was because I rode on very, very few express dashes on them - 7 that I can remember. Three CPW runs on D trains, three Queens express runs on E trains, and one Fulton St. sprint on an E. Notice the A doesn't factor in the equation. I think I rode on maybe five prewar A trains, total.
My allegiance will forever be divided equally between the R-1/9s and R-10s.
I'm certainly not offended ... my problem is that as a geese, I spent *way* too much time in R-10's on the A train from childhood until I left the city. Every time the IND gummed up with trains stopped from hither to yon, I was in an R10 most of the time. When I worked the D train, we got held up by a dead or dying R10 somewhere screwing up the railroad. I got a complex. :)
At least I knew how to FIX an Arnine when one of mind laid down on the railroad (except for a split wheel once, couldn't fix that, had to get a tow truck) ...
My favorites:
The old and current R32 models, still running great (except for the A/C in the summertime.)
The R62, excellent MDBF (since when was the last time you were on a #4 train when it was taken out of service for any reason related to door malfunction or train problem. Stoppage of line such as a major incident ahead does not count.
Honorable mention: R68 (see R62 above)
R33WF with the original 1963 Worlds Fair paint job
My favorites:
The old and current R32 models, still running great (except for the A/C in the summertime.)
The R62, excellent MDBF (since when was the last time you were on a #4 train when it was taken out of service for any reason related to door malfunction or train problem. Stoppage of line such as a major incident ahead does not count.)
Forgot one other the R40 Slant, on my favorite line of course, but during the GOH back in 1988-1989, they could've left the LED display on the front end of the car (Local, EXP), it was above the car door for those who remember that.
Honorable mention: R68 (see R62 above)
R33WF with the original 1963 Worlds Fair paint job
I like the IRT Low-Vs with the motors that sounded like a mooing cow. I only rode them when they ran them on the IRT 42nd St. shuttle for the subway's 90th anniversary. I liked the original appearance of the R-32s with the blue doors. I like any piece of rolling stock with a railfan window.
#3 West End Jeff
All prewar equipment sounded like that. It was the spur-cut bull and pinion gears that accounted for the moaning and groaning. Starting with the R-10s, all NYC subway cars have helical-cut gears.
The helical cut gears produce more of a whirring noise. When the helical cut gears are up to speed, the noise sometimes becomes more distinctive.
#3 West End Jeff
The rare R/32 G.E.s , I'd love to see a full set gleaming in the sun.
The EP motors, another fantasy, without their flat cars.
The R/110As and the R110Bs
Okay this thread is done!
avid
The SOAC cars were nice, although they were not in service.
The one with the commuter seats and table was a nice fantasy car. A car that the "heypaul Support Group" would use for its Sunrise Breakfast run To Stillwell Ave.
Oh hum! It would be another nice fantasy to see the SOAC split with each car at the end of an R/44 trailr set, screaming across the flats of Jamaica Bay.
avid
Avid,
Remember that pair of SOACs has not been scrapped. It may not be
operational, but you can visit the pair at the Seashore Trolley
Museum, Kennenpunkport, Maine from May thru October any given year.
And dependent on the docent of the day, you may be told the tale of
the $1M venture from the folks in DC and with a New Yawk Twang.
;-) Sparky
And dependent on the docent of the day, you may be told the tale of the $1M venture from the folks in DC and with a New Yawk Twang.
And if you're really lucky the docent will even be decent :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey Chris, IOU $2 American for that one.
;-) Sparky
Bye the way, what is the story behind the SOACs going to Maine.
I know they were once the property of the Dept. of Transportation.
How and when did the transfer happen?
Was this done on a bid bases, gift to the state of Maine, purchase of surplus equipement, political deal?
Were they offered to anyone else? Who?
Are or were there strings attached?
avid
The US DOT offered SOAC to Seashore not as a political deal and nothing to do with the State of Maine and all remaining parts they had sitting around. Also if Im not mistaken US DOT shipped them and had the cars placed on our rails. They were going to be scrapped. I beleive they arrived in 1995-96
Thank you, I was unawear as were many others, I guess.
I must get up there, someday.....
avid
Mid September of each year and yaw may get a docent that speaks with
a New Yawk Dialect.
Yes, the SOACs are on the visitors walking tour for all to see.
;-) Sparky
Ok John I know where to put you this year when Im dispatching. You can docent every trip. NO controller time for you> ;) Stevie LOL
Stevie,
Haven't seen yaw in a few years. I'll do my share of docenting along
with handle time. But keep me out of the display room. I can PHD,
but not in that room. You know I can, remember the year I was there
and BSRA was there also and you took over the motors on 966
at Talbott Park from me and I kept on with the PHD. You a stinker,
yaw know.
I'll be about the 5th & 6th of April for requalification, if they
have power restored. Look for you then.
;-) Sparky
Hey Spahkee, you're not the only one who can do a Noo Yawk axent.
It's taken me a while to digest this huge thread, but here's my 2˘ worth, broken down into current and vintage fleets.
Current fleet:
R40 (slant)
R38
R32GE
R32
R62A Singles
R40M
Vintage fleets:
R10
R15
R21
R16
R-6-2
R-7/7a/9 with fiberglas seats
Steinway Worlds Fair Lo-V
Honourable Mention (LUL)
1938 Tube Stock.
wayne
Saw R142A, highest car number #7720 in action on the #4 line at Grand Central at around 7:30 PM last night.
I've seen #7721-7730, inclusive, it is one trainset.
wayne
As for R142's 8257-60 were in Serivce on the L Yeasterday at around 3:30pm 8273-76 were in the barn at East New York Yard also yesterday. That means if all set up to that are on the TA ground somewere, then there are only 9 more set to come in.
robert
Before anyone tell me that 8257 are R143's not R142's let me put it up now.
Sorry for the mistake.
Robert
Click on preview message before posting. That way you can correct your mistakes before posting, as I do.
Bill "Newkirk"
Dave:
I donated to the site and put this up.
Props to nycsubway.org.
Tell the guy on e-bay to stick it.
Tony
Kudos to you! Big time! This IS the best transit site in the www today, and it's sooooo much fun to talk about it here.
Thanks! bUt real props to all the contributors, don't forget them.
Contributors
this isn't a site - this is a RELIGION :), and welcome to Mecca :) :)
--Mark
SIDERODROMOTHEISM!
I just saw a 3 car AC Line train comming through the Haddonfield Trench on the new contrete ties being led by a Comet IV cab car and trailing 2 Comet IV coaches. I guess it sort of makes sence given that the line is all hi platform.
Comet IV's have been running there for some time. I rode a set in 1998, returning from Atlantic City to Philadelphia. This was my first trip to AC by train fron NY. My father thought I was nuts. But I found it worth the ride. I HATE BUSES!!
Usually the AC Line rates Comet II's with comet IB cab cars.
Comet I cabs are usually common on the ACRL. On my trip in 1998, I rode from Philly to AC on a Comet II cab car. My return trip was on a Comet IV. While star gazing at the AC Rail Terminal, I found only one Comet I cab car. The others were II's and that one IV that I returned on. Even the train meet scheduled around Atco, the cab was a Comet II.
PennDoT just anounced a set of sweeping new improvements to the Amtrak Harrisburg Line / Keystone Corridor. In addition to the new welded rail and electric operation PennDoT is building a 10 million $ station at Harrisburg International Airport (part of a $222 million airport improvemnet, glad to see that rail gets such a big piece of the pie). Furhter planned improvements include a new station at Paradise PA for a connection to the Strassburg RR, the elimination of 3 grade crossings to increase linespeeds to 90 mph and a 74 milion $ commuter rail system from Lancaster to Carlisle. 140 million $ has already been allocated for projects set to begin in the next 12 months. These include electric locomotives and CRW installation b/t Lancaster and Harrisburg.
Is this plan available online?
I got the news from a paid rail news service, so I do not know.
A train stop at HIA (MDT) served by Capital Area Transit Corridor One Commuter Rail (CatRail?) and Amtrak westward to downtown, and CATRail and Amtrak eastward to Lancaster, and 90 mph Amtrak eastward to Philadelphia could make HIA to Philadelphia what BWI is to Washington -- a vaiable secondary (ok, BWI is really tertiary) airport. An airline like JetBlue or Southwest could offer service to Philadelphia via HIA, in the same manner as Southwest offers service to New York via Islip. Of course, no airline is expanding nowadays. Not even the low-cost carriers, but it's a possibility.
An airline like JetBlue or Southwest could offer service to Philadelphia via HIA, in the same manner as Southwest offers service to New York via Islip
Yes, it could, but why is it a good thing?
AEM7
In an effort to increase a slight decline in non-NEC ridership, Amtrak is generally reducing coach fares all accross its system. In addition to this they have brought back the 2 for 1 programme when people ride together and instituted an additional 25% discount for single travelers. For example, the fare for those traveling between Seattle and St. Paul usually is $134. The new rollback fare is $101.
This is really good news people. If you thoght Amtrak LH fares were cheap before (I am going to chicago and back for < 100$) then now is really the time to ditch evil air travel and take Amtrak.
Also, since the Pennsylvanian is being cut back on Jan 27th, you subtalkers might want to consider a farewell ride to Cleveland and back via Washington DC. I did this last year, it only took 2 days and cost under 75$ with the rail sale fare on the pennsylvanian and the 2 for 1 on the Capitol Limited.
This is really good news people. If you thoght Amtrak LH fares were cheap before...
This is not good news, Mike. Amtrak doesn't need to take another fare penalty. It needs revenues.
I think I also know the reason for the ridership decline -- the recent schedule changes. That may be a blessing in disguise, however, because that means State DOTs will have to pay for commuter capacity. I think they lost mainly commuter ridership.
AEM7
And let's hope there isn't a shitload of fine print to accompany these low fares.
Recently they were advertising $12.00 fares from LA to San Diego -- but the fine print said only on Tuesdays-Wednesdays-Thursdays, and IF you bought tickets two days in advance.
I just paid $32.00 round trip from Santa Ana to San Diego this past weekend....90 miles each way. (Could have done it for $21.00 RT on the skinny dog, but just the thought of it....UGH!!)
Here are the promo codes, from an email I received today:
H255 (buy a ticket and your companion rides free)
H259 (an extra 25% off the fares when you're traveling solo)
Check the Amtrak website for more information.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Although the indirect lighting in the underground stations within the WMATA Metrorail system is quite unique and one of a kind, I still would prefer to have the stations a bit more lit (mainly because the pictures I take of the underground stations come out looking like shit due to low light). If you have been in the system before, would you agree with me?
Also on a somewhat different topic, what stations in the NYC MTA suffer from lack of lighting problems?
Also on a somewhat different topic, what stations in the NYC MTA suffer from lack of lighting problems?
91st Street, Worth Street and 18th Street.
91st Street, Worth Street and 18th Street.
Also on a somewhat different topic, what stations in the NYC MTA suffer from lack of lighting problems?
91st Street, Worth Street and 18th Street.
Not to mention 76th Street.
Ow! Even *moi* did not take that bait this time. Now brush off yer shoes. :)
LOL, an easy opportunity to bring up 76th Street.
Douce Man where are you????
I thought he said NOT TO MENTION 76th Street!
Yeah, I'm really surprised you didn't bring up 76 St this time Selkirk ;-). Its amazing, 76 St seems to pop up somehow no matter what the thread is. Maybe 76th is using low watt light bulbs.....
Despite the poor lighting, the gleaming white color band improves visibility a good deal.
Myrtle Avenue on Q also.
This picture of Dupont Circle is about as good as my underground pics get.
Alot of my other ones are shitty, like this one in Friendship Heights
The second one looks like it has problems with focus, not light.
In the Friendship picture, it is blurred because you had the shutter open too long and didn't hold the camera still.
WMATA stations aren't too dark, you and I use the same camera although I tend not to do many Friendship pics. You just need to know which stations are better and which aren't. Foggy Bottom is the worst of them all. There is one other bad one, I believe it is Eastern Market. Just remember don't use a flash! BTW, your DuPont pic is about as good as most people get them to be.
Sometimes they work:
Sometimes they don't:
I have noticed that if there is not enough light, they do tend to get a bit blurry.
However, I am having a terrible time with my scanner scanning slides properly. I didn't have that problem when I first got it a few months ago. The first shuttle image is a print, so no problem. The one at Church is much better if viewed in a slide viewer. Something is set wrong on my scanner, so I get a greenish darkening haze over my slides when I scan them. Can't figure out how to stop that. Very frustrating.
i agree with you about not having enough light. those shots within metrorail stations require that i stay perfectly still. any slight movement would result in blurred shots. now of course i could use the flash and i would not have this problem but then the shots become overly dark and the natual glow of the station is lost
A flash only helps if the subject is near you. In a station as large as the Metro stations you took, a flash wouldn't have done much except reflect off of some of the shiny surfaces. possibly even ruining the shot. You are better off without it in a situation like that.
As for flash, I always laugh when people take flash photos through a window. I've seen people take photos with the flash on through the windows of a train, etc. Do they really expect to get anything but a flash of light reflecting off of the window when they get their photos back?
In the Friendship picture, it is blurred because you had the shutter open too long and didn't hold the camera still.
WMATA stations aren't too dark, you and I use the same camera although I tend not to do many Friendship pics. You just need to know which stations are better and which aren't. Foggy Bottom is the worst of them all. There is one other bad one, I believe it is Eastern Market. Just remember don't use a flash! BTW, your DuPont pic is about as good as most people get them to be.
Actually, i found a pic of mine that might top Dupont Circle. Here's Columbia Heights on the Green Line
Foggy Bottom is the worst of them all.
Wonder if the station's name has anything to do with it ....
--Mark
In the midst of this issue, isn't there a regulation in the minimum light required to be in public stations (places)? I know for public buildings they do because they undergo inspections and whatnot but what about for train stations? Otherwise, the architects tried to achieve their goal of "a dark side to elegancy and modern technology" using the minimum amount of light possible or putting lighting fixtures where they will give the least light output.
If you check with the Sea Beach Line (or any other rail line that is built open cut around there in Brooklyn like the Q), those stations have the plain "stick light the-entire-length-of-each-platform" and it STILL works fine during nights. (I have observed at New Utrecht Station on the N) Don't try to take photos there during the night, as you might see nothing but the lights and barely what the lights touch. (You wouldn't be able to see the trackage during the night, only visible with the human eyes. There are no streets or street lamps overshadowing the trackage so other than these lights, it is almost pitch black)
Those WMATA stations DO look dark. I'll bet they do not meet "reading" standards (minimum recommended for reading is 60W of output light, any less will render in worse eyes)
I think in stations there should be enough light at least for someone to read, even though not many people read in subway or train stations.
The abandoned stations, 18, 91 & Worth Sts. As for the open stations, definitely Chambers St on the Nassau line and with all the abandoned stations wide open, makes it look worse.
If you want to count the els, I know of at least Pelham Parkway and Middletown Road that have the original incandescent lighting still in those stations, very dark.
Hello, n3w L[][]k T3rr4pin.
I visited D.C. on June 2001.
That was my first visit to United States. (I'm not the businessman who often go abroad. I'm aircraft nut; my travel was to visit Smithsonian Air and Space museum!)
When I went down to the Metro station first time, I was surprised that the station was awfully dark (My hotel was near the Dupont Circle Station). I thought that nobody could understand what's happened if I stood at the end of platform and somebody killed me in silence. You think that I watched the Hollywood Movies too much? But I actually felt fearful a little bit.
I ride the subway in Tokyo JAPAN everyday; its station is well lightened.
I also visited Shanghai in China same year and rode the subway (There are couple of lines.). Its station was darker than Tokyo too, but lighter than D.C.
So I'm thinking that too much lighting of subway station in Tokyo is Japanese unique thing and it is waste of the electric energy. The indirect lighting of D.C. Metro station makes a kind of chic or sophisticated feelings. Please let me know how you feel about well-lightened Japanese subway station, if someone who has visited Tokyo read this.
By the way I found that the manner of Metro or Subway (NY) riders in United States was far better than Japan.
Thanks for reading and sorry about my bad English.
First of all, your English is very good. Secondly, could you possibly post a couple of pictures from Tokyo so that we can compare the two?
Hope you had a GREAT time here in the US. I grew up about 20 miles north of DC.
Agreed, his english is perfect. I look foward to more postings.
Peace,
ANDEE
Agreed, his english is perfect. I look foward to more postings.
Me too. I hope he posts some more about Japan's subway. It would be nice to learn a bit more about it, and some photos would be welcome. So Muneyoshi, thanks for stopping by, hope you will be around again.
HeHe, he even spelled n3w L[][]k T3rr4pin's handle right (although he probably pasted it the way I did), but anyway, I don't even know how to say "n3w L[][]k T3rr4pin"......
Thanks for reading and sorry about my bad English.
Hey, your English is better than that of a lot of posters, and what's more important, your thoughts are coherent! Welcome to the board. I've never had the opportunity to visit Japan (and probably never will) but I enjoy reading about its subways and railways. I must admit that I'd prefer a bit more lighting in the DC Metro stations; I use Union Station and Glenmont (on the Red line) when I'm visiting my daughter in Silver Spring, and both of those stations are quite dark. Some of the larger stations - Gallery Place/Chinatown comes to mind - are better lit though. I'm not a regular in DC - once every couple of months - so I'm not well acquainted with the rest of the system, although I have ridden every line from end to end at least once.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Personally I prefer well-lit stations, so the DC Metro has always seemed too dark for me. Even NYC subway stations, which can have a number of other problems, usually manage to have well-lit platform areas (the white wall tiles help). I admit I didn't pay much attention to the lighting in the Tokyo subway when I was there, but I was very impressed with the transit network there overall. I found it a joy to ride-- well, other than the crowding, but as a tourist it would have been a disappointment to experience anything less.
Usually the problem can be somewhat abated by painting the walls a light colour.
please advise
(I) (O) (U) ...
There's already a UU train.
But that's a local. Also reserved for Second Avenue is the (X) train (our motto, "The consist is OUT there") ...
[please advise]
Okay, I advise waiting for construction to be mostly completed before expecting Transit to commit to an official service plan. Since the damned thing hasn't even been fully designed yet, we'll be waiting a g-o-o-d l-o-n-g time.
This is good advice, I follow.
You mean rolling stock? By the time it opens, look for R143 or R160 cars, or later.
Lines: The first operating segment will be a Second Av-63rd St-Broadway service, either heading out the BMT Manhattan Bridge or the Montague tunnel.
You could do this simply mean extending the Q train east from its current terminal,and north through the 63rd St bellmouth along Second Av.
(You mean rolling stock? By the time it opens, look for R143 or R160 cars, or later.)
Will have to be: the line is supposed to be CBTC.
(Lines: The first operating segment will be a Second Av-63rd st-Broadway service, either heading out the BMT Manhattan Bridge
or the Montague tunnel.)
If we get even the part north of 63rd Street built, I will be both happy and pleasantly surprised. It would at least offset the LIRR to GCT as far as crowding on the Lex.
Since the full length line is at least being planned for, however, I think the flip-flop at Canal is off the table. Therefore, the Second Avenue would be the Broadway Express via Bridge, the Q and N (Brighton and Sea Beach) until the Manny B needs to be rebuilt again.
This would have a ripple effect on car assignments. With the Culver, Crosstown and Queens Bld line also scheduled for CBTC relatively early on, the Concourse, 8th Avenue and Fulton Street lines would have to have the oldest cars in the B division for some time.
I have also just suggested on another thread, the idea of crossing Eastern div. via Chrystie St. trains over at Lex and sending them up there as well. This would make up for the lost 57th St. or 21st St. terminal due to the Queens connection. They could be a rush hour special (in addition to the Bway service) and also possibly provide all service during wekends when the third Bway train doesn't run.
Likewise, if we ever have a Northside only open (southside shutdown) again, you might have only 6th av. service on upper 2nd Av.
Southside only open like now, both Q's. (full line opened, neither)
Fully closed or fully open, just the Q or N.
(Now, you know you can't go making plans for these lines without also considering all the possible Manhattan Bridge scenarios-- C, S, N, O)
First we must decide *where* the trains will go.
I *like* the idea of bending the route west along 125th Street to the hudson river, thus giving uptown a crosstown route.
I also like the idea of continuing north along Third Avenue in the Bronx to Fordham University.
At the South end I see a line following Water Street to Whitehall Street, and a connection to the Manhattan Bridge at Christie Street.
There would also be a route that connects from 63rd Street to Broadway, and one from Queens that runs downtown.
So my Routes then would be this:
(T) Fordham University to West End via Second Avenue/Manhattan Bridge
(Q) 125th Street to Brighton Beach via Broadway/Manhattan Bridge
(V) 179th Street to Whitehall Street via Water Street
: ) Elias
"At the South end I see a line following Water Street to Whitehall Street, and a connection to the Manhattan Bridge at Christie Street. "
I agree with everything you wrote, except, I like to see a connection b/t the 1/9 and N/R Whitehall Street and South Ferrry Stations.
N Broadway Line
None, because they will probably have teleportation devices by the time they ever build a 2 Ave Subway.
In that case:
BE AFRAID, BE VERY AFRAID
Advise..... The damn thing is going to stay a shell in the completed sections for the forseeable future. This is why we can't expand, they put off projects for too long then they get buried.
The "N" will run. "N" for Never.
The R-39 contract will be resurrected.
--Mark
Tomorrow at 8:54 AM, I will board a train at Flatbush to connect to the Long Beach train at Jamaica.
One minute later, Jersey Mike will board that LB train at Penn.
From there a few hours of LIRR riding will ensue, including the N33, Far Rock, and OB. This will be followed by a trip to the Hello Deli and the World Trade Center Site.
COME ALONG.
Cost of trip: LIRR fare
There will be railfan and food oppurtunities at Far Rock, Jamacia and Oyster Bay due to extended layovers. Depending on the tip we might also stop by to see the Soup Nazi.
hey fellas, i hopefully will be seeing you all in the morning. i hope to catch you guys at FBA. i wont ride all day, i prolly ride to Far Rock with yall or whereever u guys are going. just look for a guy with the F train hat, and remember i work for MNRR, so i will let that be known. so look for me in the morning. see yall there
That's great! I will be meeting you at JAY so you'll need to look for Pigs in the first car and then for me in the first car of the LB train at JAY.
In a Times Union article, linked to below, the reason for the two week delay in "budget message" becomes somewhat more clear. Based on what a reporter buddy of mine overheard though, a REALLY rough ride might be in the offing in all areas of the state ...
Paturkey and Bruno do NOT want to raise "taxes" and in order to do so, rent control *IS* gone, done, finito. 15-25% reduction in hourly state employees (including train operators, etc in the MTA but also in every other agency) and major cuts in services. These "minimal reductions" (Bruno was overheard POINTEDLY and repeatedly asking why NYC has to have trains and busses 24 hours a day when it's not done in any other city) would include curtailing all trains (suburbs too) as well as massive layoffs in police, fire, health and other sectors *UNLESS* the state receives up to $10 billion in financial aid from Washington (not going to happen either) ...
It appears as though we're headed towards a major legislative meltdown and scuttling of everything from the early shots in the budget battle this year. But Pataki pulled his proposed budget off the table for two weeks to "rework it" when Bruno had a canary about any raises in taxes to offset the financial disaster the state is headed towards. And unlike DC, New York *CANNOT* have a deficit budget under the NYS Constitution ... if revenue isn't raised, then things MUST be shut down. Bruno believes that significantly higher rents will result in higher property tax values and THAT is where the money will come from. Not happy words from the Capitol today. :(
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=89969&category=FRONTPG&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=1/7/2003
Bruno needs to go put his head in his ass. All jokes aside, this is crazy even if rent control is kaput, we're STILL stuck with hefty property taxes, we may have to go through massive layoffs similar to the 1970's, and what the hell is he thinking trying to cut overnight subway service, that would be moronic. Each day that passes by, NYS is looking more and more dysfunctional with Paturkey and his puppet Bruno as our "leaders" :-(. Oh lord just another setback when you mentioned that NY *CANNOT* have a budget deficit; the state and their damn free spending now look at where they put us, on the brink of CHAOS!
Actually, you've got that backwards ... Bruno is the puppetmaster, Paturkey's the thing dangling from the strings with no lip muscles. And as to Bruno, to the Babelfish translation on it - "tawny" or "brown" ... so I'll leave the positioning of the rectal-cranial tissue to the interpolation of others.
First time in history that the governor's budget message has been delayed, so this MEANS something. And Bruno couldn't give a rat's ASS about New York City and its fine inhabitants. Amtrak doesn't run to his train station 24 hours a day, and who are YOU? (he really IS that arrogant) ...
New York is RENSSELAER. Anything else in the state is a hick town. :(
Is RESSELAER the coounty your reside in (Selkirk being the town)?
I used to work in Green Island (Near Troy), and lived in a shanty little town called Watervliet.
Chuck Greene
Watervliet, and other garden spots like Selkirk (can you SMELL the decline, brother) are all in ALBANY county ... Rensselaer is that dump on the OTHER side of the Hudson where the tank farms and rotting smokestacks are. Where Amtrak stops instead of Albany. Can't blame ME, I ain't in Senator Joe's district. But he keeps sneaking over here at night trying to rip off MORE stuff for his dump at our expense. That's why we love him so much over here. :)
Thanks for "clearing that up" for me.
I was confused any couldn't remember ALBANY county.
Thanks again!
Chuck Greene
Nice place, if you make your OWN job. :)
Can't count on those weasels.
Well once they get rid of rent control the only people who live in the city will be those who can afford their own personal SUV (chauffeur optional) the demand for 24 hour Subway service will appear and the state can rake in a futher cost savings.
And that's EXACTLY the mentality that New York City voters shooed back into office. I couldn't get over that NY Times puffpiece on "Gentleman Farmer Joe" and his horse stable nonsense. Only thing he keeps in those stables is ROAD TANKS ... the horsies freeze out in the snow. But if New York ain't going to try to raise the cash to pay it's bills, anyone with half a brain knows what happens when you don't pay your bills ... "howdy, Mr. Repo man" ... :(
No that's what happens when you spend like you're on a shopping spree and this makes the tax man that comes for citizens $$ look good :-\. Why would you vote someone back in who's going to do the same thing he did the last term, they should of been like voters who bounced Koch out of City Hall and wanted a new guy [which Dinkins made some BAD decisions in his 4 years].
Absolutely agreed ... and out here, we change politicians more often than the weather. :)
NYC and surrounding area residents might consider it too next time. In this "hick county" Paturkey only made it by a couple dozen votes. He did MUCH better elsewhere ...
Well, Pataki didn't win NYC, NYC was McCall Country.
So was Albany county. And we felt very much alone. We're paying for it now though. :(
Jerky Mike you been hanging out with Qdash too much.
Well once they get rid of rent control the only people who live in the city will be those who can afford their own personal SUV
This is supposed to be a problem?
Manhattan isn't a housing project. If people want to live in the better location, they should be able to afford it. If they can't, they can live someplace else.
Are you also offended that only excessively wealthy people live on Park Avenue? Should we have 80/20 for lower class families on Park Avenue?
Cut overnight service??? What the hell is he thinking!!! People use the subways and buses 24 hours a day, the service is very minimal during the night hours anyway. This is absolute insanity, just raise the friggin fare... If you can't afford $2.50, you can't afford NYC!
He was actually overheard asking that question by a friend of mine who works at one of our local TV stations. I've mentioned some of the other hairbrained schemes hatched by Division of the Budget folks and others - I'm sure in the end nothing of this calibre will come to pass but I still find it absolutely amazing that someone of Senator Joe's (ahem, kaff) "stature" would even be ASKING the question or even entertaining the thought. He was adamant that New York is the ONLY city that can't find such an economy and his attitude towards the "unwashed scum" (his words) in NYC is legendary ... he also recently got his nads in a clamp for some of his more choice remarks with respect (?) to Trent Lott ... Joey really believes that there aren't any white people in NYC and perhaps shutting down the subways may have an impact on lowering crime in the suburbs. Joey's a genuine piece of work he is ...
Insanity.. No more rent control = CRIME. No more 24 hour subway service, meens more homeless people on the streets during the night = CRIME! Tax breaks = YUPPIES (No one wants them).
What Pataki and Bruno should do is shove 75' subway cars up their asses, wait no... They would enjoy that way too much.
As long as none of it ends up on his palatial estate in Brunswick (outside of Troy) then Joey don't care. All Joey cares about is his buddies at Verizon and his other buddies at the NYS Business Council. Everyone else is "flotsom" in his book. And he WON'T have to look at it either from where he's cordoned off ...
And yes, he eats 75 footers for breakfast. :)
>>Joey [Bruno] really believes that there aren't any white people in NYC<<
Joey ought to be reminded that, 100 years ago, Italian immigrants like his ancestors were not considered white.
I *really* don't think he'd get it. As a journalist, I spent quite a bit of time around him in the same room, overhearing many things that I wished I hadn't heard. But his little "whoopsie" publicly in defense of Trent Lott wasn't the first time he's said any of that or shown his true self. But if it was up to Joey, New York City would be a landfill. Only reason he paid a visit after 9/11 was ONLY because Shrub was coming that day and felt "obligated." He was out of there BEFORE the ceremonies ended.
Let's not go towards Trent Lott. That was definitely a Republican knee-jerk response to a statement that wasn't as loaded as it was advertised. We KNOW the reason for such a swift response.
Furthermore, most upstate politicians don't know enough about NYC's demographics or the demographics of subway riders to make a serious choice. For the record, NYC is 56% white and I BET that this group makes up AT LEAST 40% of mass transit ridership in this city. Then again, the MTA has problems keeping track of the demographic breakdown as well.
Anyone near politics knows that perception is sometimes treated as reality.
If instead of publishing a top ten list showing the top posters for the month, I should publish a list of most popular off-topic topics.
Joe Bruno will definitely win that game, and I wonder who will win the game for posting about him...
You must have the Joe Bruno touch, every thread you touch turns into something about Joe Bruno.
That is why he is State Senate Majority Leader, representing Albany-Rennessler. The needs of upstate surbanites who own farm country, and never heard of public transportation before, come first. The city resident comes in last.
If instead of publishing a top ten list showing the top posters for the month, I should publish a list of most popular off-topic topics.
Joe Bruno will definitely win that game, and I wonder who will win the game for posting about him...
I would have thought that food was the favorite off-topic post.
Not in the least off topic. The most on-topic topic there is. 24-hour subways in the most subway-dependent city on earth are funded by people who drive SUV's in a state run by one guy. Guess who?
Must be our friend Governor Paturkey
Wrong again. Pataki travels around the state from time to time. Bruno.
Looks like he's not used to using mass transportation :-\. He's upset that the city hasn't crumbled and Bruno would declare victory if the city goes back to the conditions of the 70's, 80's and early 90's; oh he'll love that :-(. He should go put his head in his ass and leave it there.
Joe Bruno has realtions with a subway?
Kinky!
Not really... even an IRT subway would be very loose ;-)
I'd only offer that it's not as off-topic as you think. There's the continual shaking down of Amtrak (latest is $47.5 million for Turbo trains with no parts), failing to fund the track upgrades that would have allowed high-speed rail throughout the state (though he DID get CSX their tax cut even though they did NOTHING to earn it) and of course now he's turning his attention to NYC's *subways* in that he intends to completely cut *ALL* state subsidies for the MTA (including that precious M train we've been talking about lately) ... so call it off-topic if you wish, we can always go back to more important things like which train goes express on the bridge vs. the rathole or the 76 St station or tearing down elevateds, especially if there's redbirds on them. :)
Seriously though, it IS relevant even if it drifts far afield at times.
When we get a Joe Bruno and 76th Street thread together, THEN we're in big trouble :)
--Mark
When we get a Joe Bruno and 76th Street thread together, THEN we're in big trouble :)
Hmm, sounds like an idea!
You got that right :o). Man, that would cause a lot of fire here but there would be people who would enjoy that; you know who you are.....
Gotta fight fire with fire.
Well, the prize is someone creating a new thread on the so called existence of 76 St and the pic proving 76 actually exists so all the talk is FINALLY over....NOT! When another HOAX comes up Pigs, there will be fire alright.
I think water does a better job.
Hmmmm, more pre-budget hyperbole meant soley into scaring people into suporting their ideas. Rent control gone? Yeah, right.
We'll see ...
Silver touched on the need to renew it on Sunday and again on Monday morning ...
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=89600&category=CAPITOL&BCCode=&newsdate=1/7/2003
TimesUnion "publishes" its internet pages at sunrise, so expect some coverage of Joe Bruno's press conference "We have to prioritize" speech today wherein he said specifically to the microphones that rent control is dead, and he's planning to cut across the board (including transit) but of course not in his neck of the woods. He stood adamantly stating that he'd shut down the city before he'd raise a penny in taxes. Should be in print in the morning.
Sure this is your typical brinksmanship, but there's some seriously funny things going on - Governor's state of the state address on your public TV station at 1PM today (Wednesday) ... we're told "it'll be vague, the lines haven't been drawn yet and those will be enumerated in the budget statement on the 29th of the month."
But NYC and surrounding area's "transit" is slated for cutbacks according to his "priorities" speech today. And NO fare hike.
Does this mean the clock is being turned back to the marvelous (tongue held firmly in cheek) 70s?
Apparently yes ... the 1870's. :)
Got a full head of steam, let's go before we need to put more water in. Whoo-whoo. In all sincerity, they've boxed themselves into a hell of a corner here - they CAN'T "up security funding" and provide ANOTHER tax cut without cutting the qwap out of something. NY's Constitution does not permit voodoo economics - money out *must* equal money in. I can't WAIT to see what sacred mooers get gored here ...
They plan to continue to build all MTA projects, so something's gotta give somewhere. Me am bizarro I guess. :\
Naaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.:)
hey kirk, just left the city.... not a lick of snow[a lite dusting is not SNOW!]In-frickin-credible,if you ask me....and to keep on topic.... I HATE BURRITOCRATAS!!!!! There screwin around with the CDTA System now... cutting run,makin us wait EVEN LONGER for a bus! The bus from my house runs every haft hour.... next month ? EVERY HOUR!!!!!! can you believe that crap?The reason...? BUDGET CUTS!!! Bull****!!!!
Howdy and welcome back to the igloo, bro! :)
Actually, CDTA's budget did *NOT* get cut, Bruno's boy who runs it diverted $5.5 million for the Bruno train station up in Horsietown until he gets it out of the MTA later in the year. Could be worse ... the bus that USED to run here once a day was chitcanned about five months ago, now the town has to come up with the scratch to buy its OWN municipal Zamboni. We had one, but that disappeared into a snowbank shortly before Kissmoose and Deputy Barney gave up on trying to find it. I'm sure it'll turn up out in the middle of a field when the ice breaks in June. :)
"I can't WAIT to see what sacred mooers get gored here ..."
Bruno's slaves (um, I mean fellow Republican Senators) will soon be telling him the their conservative constituents LIKE state services. A moderate temporary tax rise plus some hefty cuts will fly better than no tax rise and total gutting of popular programs.
Don't forget that Pataki engineered Bruno's election as a replacement for Ralph Marino. Pataki will do it again if Bruno endangers the Republican majority with excessively doctrinaire policies.
Ah, it was Bruno who brought Paturkey out of the Assembly and into the governor's chair. It's the other way around, Paturkey is owned by Joe Bruno. That's why Ralph got shoved out - squid pro quo ...
Pataki will be destroyed by the Republican party commisars if he is not doctrinaire enough.
What a surprise! (sarcasm)
We pay what we get.
I was wondering, is it possible to continue the V to Parsons/Archer
via the J/Z line using the Chrystie St Connector?
I see quite a few postings concerning the V, and was wondering if
this would be a good idea, giving all the J/M/Z riders a direct link to Midtown.
I am not suggesting in additon to what is on this line, but, say replacing the Z.
Yes it is possible. But you cant run 75-Foot cars on the 'J' line. I think it is a good idea. Its stupid that the city has a great (One Seat) connection from that part of Brooklyn to Midtown Manhattan. And they dont use it.
MTA
Money
Thrown
Away
SEE MY PHOTOS !!!!
http://www.imagestation.com/member/?name=R40_Railfan
Yes it would be a good idea, it could run to Broadway Junction [lets leave it at that for now] via the Broadway el local. It would create a new midtown link and its so stupid the MTA hasn't thought of this when the V first came out. But you would have to use 60 footers of course since 75 footers can't navigate some curves and turns. And BTW, you can't replace the Z plus its only 6 trips anyway.
To add to that, the V terminating at BJ is the only way skip/stop could remain on the Jamaica Line. If the V was to be extended to Jamaica Center, the skip/stop would not work. The V and J could not run skip/stop with each other because they wouldn't have the same terminals. This would be a bad inconvenience to J only or V only stations. The J/Z skip stop works because both the J and Z go to the same place, or simply there is no advantage to the Z over the J or visa-versa.
However, with the V to BJ, the J/Z could run as they do skip/stop, except running express west of BJ. The only other option would be to get rid of the Z, run the J and V to JC making all stps between BJ and JC, and have the J run express between BJ and Marcy, with the V local.
Skip stop service is doing well so getting rid of it is not a good option. I agree that running the V to Jamaica Center would destroy the skip stop service and would knock out the Z so Bway Junction is the best place for the V; if you had Atlantic Av with its old configuration on the L, it would have been so much easier for the J/Z to run express. If there's a double switch from the Jamaica bound track to the MB track [which I think there is], then you have a shot but I'm not too hot on that.
There is no physical connection from tracks D1A/D2A (upper level) and J1/J2 (lower level) at Parsons/Archer or Sutphin Blvd. So how can the V run on the J and the Blvd?
It travels down the regular route and just before 2nd Avenue switches to the connection once used by the KK train which will take it up to Essex St station on the BMT. From there it follows the J route.
This is one of the oldest SubTalk "lines," posted when this site first came on. The idea of:
JAMAICA CENTER
to
JAMAICA CENTER
via
BRIDGE AND TUNNEL
HeHe, yeah, I always love that one.
V from Contintental Ave to Broadway-Laffayette to Essex Street to Willy B to Broadway El to Jamaica Center Lower Level (J/Z platform).
... Willie B. to Broadway Junction, to Cypress Hills Via Jamaica Ave ess curve eliminator , to jamaica center using any size car.
avid
I KNOW there is no connection at Janaica Center IN QUEENS! It's in Manhattan after Broadway-Lafayette on the 6 Av line, there's a switch that leads to Essex St.
***"if you had Atlantic Av with its old configuration on the L"***
Why Atlantic Avenue on the L? Send the V thru to Rockaway Parkway
on the Carnarsie Line. Gives those riders an alternate routing
to Manhattan without changing at Broadway Junction. Then you
could short turn some Ls at Myrtle Avenue to increase service from
there to 8th Avenue on increased headways. R-46 incompatible with
the Broadway Brooklyn El, increase the R-143 order to use them on
both the L & V. Oh so,the V will be shortened from 600' [8 ~ 75' cars]
to 480'[8 ~ 60' cars]. Does the V require 600' feet of train?
I know many want the V combined with the M, but the Mary should be
maintained for service thru Nassau Street & the Tunnel to Brooklyn.
[Same as current service to 9th Ave/Bay Parkway via West End or to
Coney Island via the Brighton Local. Does the Brighton need two
services to Manhattan via the Bridge?]
;-) Sparky
That was the same idea I suggested a couple of months ago. Since the connection between the Canarsie and Broadway-Bklyn lines is to the local tracks, running the V this way would also allow both the J and Z trains to run express from Broadway Junction to Marcy peak direction during rush hour, while the V could serve the local stations on Broadway (along with the M west of Myrtle). The only ones this would adversely effect would be riders at Kosciuszko, Gates and Halsey headed to/from downtown during rush hours, since they would have to transfer to the J, M or Z, and possible L riders at Halsey, Wilson and Bushwick, if the number of L trains to Rockaway Pkwy. was cut back to allow for short-turning other L trains at Myrtle and to create space for the V south of B'way Junction.
The main problem in terms of capacity would be the maximum number of trains per hour allowed across the Willie B. That could mean not all V trains would be extended there without cutting into J, M or Z service during rush hours (which is not a killer problem, since the Second Ave. terminal would still be available for short-turning V trains, the same way some N trains are turned at Canal during rush hours). On the other hand, not sending lets say, every third V train during rush hours to Canarsie would also keep Rockaway Parkway from being overburdned during that time.
As far as the 8-car trains on the V, with current usage of the line, the MTA could probably get away with shorting the train by 120 feet on Sixth Ave. and Queens Blvd. without substantial overcrowding, and the V could also use some of the R-42s out of East New York for its fleet as well as the R-32s in Jamaica, so that the E and R wouldn't have to surrender too many of their R-32 units (with the eight extra doors per 10 car train compaired to the R-46s) if the V was extended.
Of course, until the CTBC testing is completed on the L, the MTA is going to want to keep it as a single-line only set-up, so that adding the V to its southern section won't happen. But once that is done, giving Canarsie riders a one-seat trip to midtown Manhattan would make a lot of sense.
and possible L riders at Halsey, Wilson and Bushwick, if the number of L trains to Rockaway Pkwy. was cut back to allow for short-turning other L trains at Myrtle and to create space for the V south of B'way Junction.
I'm not so sure about Halsey, but I believe that Bushwick-Aberdeen and Wilson are among the lowest ridership stations in the system, so it may not be that big of a problem. Actually, the new set up with the V going to Rock Parkway, it may even pay for Midtown-bound riders at Bushwick, etc to ride to "backwards" to Broadway Junction to catch the V there, so it may actually be beneficial to some of those riders also.
You would have to cut into L service and short turn L's but the V would provide a new midtown service from Rockaway Parkway and would save people from the transfer at 6 Av(L)/14 St on the F and V. I'm 50/50 on this but the drawback is the short turns on the L, especially during the rush but its a chance worth taking.
Gents,
Thanks for the positive input. But correct me if I'm wrong, the
operations of trains is getting more sophisticated, but it seems
we have less options, then before. Old enough to remember 90 second
headways with platform conductors at Grand Central with Low Vs on
the Lexington Expresses. Double green Northbound was Woodlawn.
;-) Sparky
The V and J could not run skip/stop with each other because they wouldn't have the same terminals. This would be a bad inconvenience to J only or V only stations. The J/Z skip stop works because both the J and Z go to the same place, or simply there is no advantage to the Z over the J or visa-versa.
Sorry if this is a dopey question, but what do you mean by this?
Under this scenario, the J and V would run together over the entire Bway-Bklyn/Jamaica line, and would share one terminal at Jamaica Center. Skip-stop service is only a small segment of this route -- Bway Junction to 121st Street.
I don't see the "bad inconvenience" here. Assuming that the new V takes the place of today's Z at the Z-only skip-stop stations, the only disadvantageous difference from today's service would be that today's Z riders who work in downtown Manhattan would have to transfer at some point to the J. However, there are ample opportunities to do this at Woodhaven Blvd, Crescent St., or Bway Junction, as well as at all of those Broadway stops that the J and V would both share. So, I doubt that this is what you meant by "bad inconvenience".
I am not getting why you say skip-stop service would be so impossible under the V-to-Jamaica Center scenario.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Skip-stop service is only a small segment of this route -- Bway Junction to 121st Street.
Actually, it runs skip stop to between Myrtle and 121st Street.
I am not getting why you say skip-stop service would be so impossible under the V-to-Jamaica Center scenario.
Think of it this way. Z's are really J's with a Z on it. J service becomes split. Full J service is at all the J/Z stations. The other stations have only half "real" J service whether it is J only or Z only, because Z's are really J's. I don't know what the headways are but let's say for arguments sake it's one J or Z leaves Jamaica Center every 10 minutes. Sutphin has a J or Z every 10 minutes. AT 121st street where only the Z stops a train only comes every 20 minutes, but it doesn't matter because it'll skip stations along the way and once it gets to Myrtle it'll be right behind the J in front of it. It works because there is no advantage to being at a J only station over a Z only station, or vise versa. And to those who have to get off at Essex would get off whether they were on a J or Z, so everyone gains from the skip stop whether at a J or Z only station.
Now throw in the V and get rid of the Z. 121st Street becomes a V only station. Passengers bound for Broad Street have to get off somewhere to catch the J. So if they enter their station as a V is pulling out, they have to wait first 20 minutes for the next V, and then get off at Woodhaven or somewhere and wait another 10 minutes for the next J. Their total wait time becomes 30 minutes instead, and they don't even gain any time from their V skipping stations, so their total commute actually takes longer than it would have been without skip stop service. While with the J/Z skip stop going to the same terminal their commute was enhanced, now it is made worse. Now multiply this scenario to all the other J only or V only stations. This is why a J/V skip stop would not work.
I hope I explained it clearly (not easy), but maybe someone else can chime in if there is something I missed, or didn't explain clearly.
I understood what you said but I'll break it down for those who don't understand.
Ok here it goes, the J/Z skip stop works b/c they BOTH have the same terminals at Broad St and at Jamaica Center and it is the same line just that trains are marked Z. After Myrtle Av, you could take either train to Manhattan so you won't have to wait 10 minutes [its every 5 after Myrtle Av to/from Manhattan and all 'ab' stops]. The actual headways for the J/Z is every 5 minutes then when Z's stop running,J's run every 8 minutes.
Now if you had the J and V running skip stop, it would work going toward Jamaica Center but toward Manhattan it wouldn't be successful since they serve different terminals in Manhattan and for those at non 'ab' stops would have to wait then transfer instead of having a one seat ride. Example you wait for a J at Cypress Hills and V's don't stop there, the V passes it then 5 minutes later the J comes you get on but you need the V so you have to get off at Crescent or another 'ab' stop and wait another 5-10 minutes for the next V to come. So I feel a J/V skip stop wouldn't work neither.
Hope this helps.
You understood! Thanks for the enhancement. (actual headways help too), but mine were for arguments sake anyway, it's easier to explain using multiples of 10.
In addition, You are right, the problem does not exist going outbound to Jamaica Center, it only exists in the morning going to Manhattan.
In addition, You are right, the problem does not exist going outbound to Jamaica Center, it only exists in the morning going to Manhattan.
Wait a minute, I just thought about it. Yes there is still a problem even outbound, the V riders would still have to pass up J's and wait for the V, so they aren't getting any advantage either from the skip stop service. It doesn't work in either direction.
Oh, I just realized that well it's no good and skip stop sevice between the J avd V is out of the question, period.
Unless the J train joins the V train on 6th Avenue...
Ah yes, then it will work, but the M would have to stay on Nassau Street with increased headways.
To add to that, the V terminating at BJ is the only way skip/stop could remain on the Jamaica Line.
Are we reviving that old thread?
LOL, Ooops, I didn't think of that. I better not abbreviate Broadway Junction anymore.
Lol! I didn't think of that either - I read the abbreviation as some sort of 168th St - CPW - 6th Av - Jamaica service I didn't know about from the late 60's!
Tried and failed from 1968 to 1973. Why waste precious resources on something already a proven failure?
Oh dear - the old "we tried that thirty years ago and it didn't work" argument that we have all heard at our workplaces, I bet, in response to almost any suggested innovation. The world has changed in the last thirty years!
I believe that it would work this time. The last time it ran only a short amount of time each day, and the neighborhood along the Broadway El was getting progressively worse. Things have changed considerably since the last time it was tried, and the neighborhood has been improving.
I would be more for having the M and V merger instead of the way the KK ran to 168th. First of all, the KK route died when they made the 63rd Street line a through route last December. There is no longer any place to terminate in Manhattan.
It wouldn't cost a tremendous amount of money in my opinion. The car shortage could not be used as an excuse, because since it is a merger between two routes, not many extras cars would be needed. The V has it's trainsets and the M has it's trainsets. Of course the V would have to trade with another line to get 8 60 foot cars. The M would need a few less trainsets than it has now because it's route would be cut (Metro to Broadway-Lafayette-actually to Continental, but with a Merger, the V already had trainsets there, and since it would be combined, their trainset assets would be combined also). The extras M trains that were used between Essex and Bay Parkway would go to the J because the J would have to increse headways a small fraction, and would need to be extended to 9th Ave and Bay Parkway. The Z would remain at Broad Street.
There is no doubt this would be a well used service. Just look at the cars empty at Essex Street. J/Z riders would benefit also because they would have cross the platform transfers to midtown at Myrtle, Marcy and Essex.
J/Z riders would benefit also because they would have cross the platform transfers to midtown at Myrtle, Marcy and Essex.
Well I mean a cross platform at Myrtle and a same platform at Marcy and Essex obviously.
Actually, a future idea would be when the 2nd Av. line opens, in addition to the Bway extendion, you could have "KK" or "MM" route trains cross over from 6th Ave/63rd St at Lexington and run up there as well. Perhaps they could provide all the service on weekends when the Q [third Bway train] doesn't run.
Yes, but as so many people point out, J/M/Z ridership is declining. Running a 6th Ave service on that section, with all it's speed restrictions, grade crossings and timers will fail miserably.
Come on, it was 30 years ago. The KK was a part time service, the Jamaica line has changed dramatically and a direct midtown link would really boost ridership on the Jamaica line and give the V more use. The V would have expanded hours and would provide a supplement to the J, particularly weekends.
New housing developments on the Bowery and new nightspots have emerged (the bowery ballroom being right in front of the Bowery station). A new art museum is being planned by 2005 two blocks away from the Bowery Station as well (Bowery between Stanton and Rivington sts.)...my prediction is a vast increase in usage of the station...anyone agree?
Art on the Bowery.....cool. We used to chase the bums years ago. I advise investing in Wild Irish and Mad Dog 2020. Nothing like running down the bums in wheelchairs...funny how a GM truck cures
the lame.
Does that mean the return of those "Bowery Boys" movies on Channel 5 in New York, like there used to be in the '70s?
Loved those old shorts. Funny how I'd drive on service calls trying to find those old neighborhoods. They existed during the times of DC power distribution....powerhouses....and disappeared as AC became prevalent. What is left is the sites of IRT....West 58th Street and East 70th Street. CI Peter
Just was there today. 40 people waiting on the platform at 7:20 PM. Not huge but a big increase over past years.
Just was there today. 40 people waiting on the platform at 7:20 PM. Not huge but a big increase over past years.
40 is probably 35 more than used to be there. The station always seemed empty years ago. I too have noticed an slow increase. The station itself doesn't seem quite as depressing either. They did cosmetically clean it up a bit. Once one side is closed, the remaining platform will be easier to maintain, perhaps the station may feel more like a "real" station with more people waiting on the platform when there is only one platform, and the area above has slowly been improving.
Will the disused half of the station be walled off or left in public view to decay?
Well, similar to Canal St, there is a curtain wall down the center of the station (between the two "express" tracks) already. There are then these little knock-outs about the average height of a person along the curtain wall near the bottom. At Canal they already cement blocked those little knock-outs closed, so I assume they will do the same at Bowery, so you won't be able to see the "abandoned" side. Although the platforms are not in real clear view of each other even now (like your typical IND "express" station), although you can see a bit through the little knockout archways.
The wall on the left of this photo is the curtain wall as seen from the southbound platform. The other platform and tracks are on the other side of the wall.
By the way, the photo in the above post, taken from this site says that this is the "southbound" platform. Does anyone know if that is meant to mean "BMT southbound" or "geographically southbound"? I know on the Nassau line the directions are reversed from the old BMT days that used Chambers Street as the "zero" point.
I'm just trying to figure out if that photo is of the soon to be abandoned platform, or if it's of the current Broad Street bound platform.
Does anybody know what's going to happen to the northbound "express" track? I passed through Canal on Sunday and the northbound platform appeared to have been extended (permanently) over the "express" track. Why on earth would a platform need to be widened just as it's being removed from passenger use?
The northbound express track will be actually the southbound direction on the Nassau Street line once the line reconfiguration is complete between Chambers Street and Essex Street.
I think you got that backwards. Southbound trains are staying where they are. Northbound trains will be across the platform at Canal and the Bowery, and on the middle track at Essex.
You got it backwards Kool-D, the southbond 'express' track is actually going to become the northbound track.
The information I posted was taken from this website, under station-by-station guide, the Nassau Line, Manhattan Section. At that time, the information was a rumor, sorry about that.
Yeah, I noticed that also.
A couple weeks ago someone else mentioned that here, and someone suggested that they may be using the former "express" track and Queens platform for "storage" once it's abandoned. I have no idea what in the world they would need to store there, but they do have "storage" rooms all over the system and even on elevated lines just built here and there, so it seemed like a good answer to me. Other than that I can't imagine why the else they would cover up the track and extend the soon to be abandoned platform to the wall.
Although, I was thinking. Maybe they will be putting whatever was in those rooms that were next to the former crossover there. I don't know where those doors used to lead. Perhaps switch rooms? Electrical rooms? Signal maintenence rooms?, etc?
They are using the space on the unrenovated platform for the rooms that were in the horseshoe (now gone) at the end of the plat which connected the two plats. Soprce: recent ERA Bulletin
There are curtain walls to begin with at Bowery and Canal St but as you see there are 'breaks' throughout the station that you could see the other side. Now, they are starting to fill the breaks in so you can't see the soon to be disused side.
I never knew the Bowery went away, so it can return. Where did it go?
Wow 40 people at Bowery at one time? That's a good sign for a station that looked like it was heading for closure just a few years ago. It won't be a laughing stock of low ridership like before if the steady increases continue.
I recently moved in to the area of the Bowery station ,got me a Fixer upper 3 family building.In the last 2 months I have been there I have noticed an increase at the station as well ,nothing outrageous but i think if the service was more reliable even more from the new "yuppie hood"would use the station.
A new art museum is being planned by 2005 two blocks away from the Bowery Station as well
Like I've always said: New York doesn't have nearly enough museums (musea?).
Tonight i saw a bi level deisel which had "penn station" lit up on the sides of the train heading west at jamaica about 9:06 pm
Sure it wasn't a Dual Mode?
:-) Andrew
Did it have two engines at each end with the 500 series DM30AC on that train?
One engine at each end you mean :-)
8 cars in between?
May be it could have been 4 or 5 like the train to Oyster Bay, it doesn't have to be 8. Also, it could be a dual-mode taking place of a MU which does occur from time to time. And yes, I did say one engine at each end.
Of course, the old Oyster Bay (and other diesel trains were basically 3 or 4 cars driven by a switcher-type loco. At one end was an FL-9 or something similar, stripped down to be a cab control car.
The late Port Jeff has 8 and in the summer the cannonball has 10.
The 2 dual-mode runs from Penn to Port Jeff have 8, the Speonk run has 8, and Oyster Bay has 4 (one round trip for each run). The Cannonball if everything goes well will originate from Penn Station this summer with 10 cars instead of Hunterspoint. So things will be interesting to say at the least. Ron is right with Oyster Bay having an MP15 most of the time powering the scoot runs from Jamaica with either an MP15 P-unit, or an FA/F unit on the other end supplying the power to the cars. What made Oyster Bay fun was seeing train 507, and 562 which came from LIC using the Montauk Branch at that time used two MP15's double headed along with 6, or 7 2900 series cars. I know this has nothing to do with Penn Station, but it was interesting to see on the Oyster Bay Branch, and while I rode train 2023 from Ronkonkoma to Penn Station, seeing that train.
I assume that, today, the Oyster Bay runs are modern trains (DM30s) (the switchers now do yard or rescue work and the old trailers are gone)...
Yes they are! The scoots are usually 3 cars and an engine (DE/DM) and runs from LIC/Penn/Hunterspoint are more.
Today it is part three of our trip across Chicago.
After a nice Christmas and New Year’s Holiday season, it is time to get back to the grindstone and have back at this writing thing. Our Holidays were great being spent with friends and family and no worry of annoying phone calls or pages beckoning me to work. I hope yours all went as well.
During my little writing hiatus, I heard from several people regarding information to several of the crossings and locations that I have mentioned in the first two parts of this journey. Instead of trying to write it all out, you can gather a look for yourself. My friend Bill Gustason has amassed quite the website called "Chicago Area Railroad Junctions" at http://www.dhke.com/CRJ/index.html with a detailed look at some of the interlockings and crossings in the Chicago and Northwest Indiana area.
For a photo and a track diagram of 21st Street in its heyday, see
http://www.dhke.com/CRJ/21street.html
For more on 16th Street, including some historical information, see
http://www.dhke.com/CRJ/others-chiso.html
There are also links to other locations I have mentioned as well. Kensington Tower, which we will look at a little later in today’s discussion, is also featured at Bill’s site. Be sure to take a look and you’ll be able to grasp a feel for what I have been discussing.
Another friend and reader heard from during my hiatus reminded me that the Chicago & Western Indiana used to call 21st Street "Santa Fe Junction." I should have remembered that but for whatever reason, didn’t. Having had to take the CWI promotion test in order to be allowed to operate on their railroad as an Engineer in 1981, I should have remembered this from the test. Even though virtually everything associated with what was on the test was long since removed from service and being, there were still some questions on the test dealing with rules and procedures through this location. As you can surmise, the test was never updated over the years.
I never reached 21st Street while operating on the CWI in my MoPac days only getting as far north as the crossovers at 23rd Street to reach the freight house that still received a car every now and again. So I knew virtually nothing about the place other than what I had heard from the old heads, observed from a distance and seen in photographs prior to that.
A look into a few of my really old CWI timetables and special instructions (older than my railroad career so you know they are really old) and sure enough, 21st Street was listed as AT & SF Junction. By the 70’s the crossing and plant had become known as 21st Street as most of trackage associated with the Santa Fe had pretty much been removed along with the diamonds and route to Dearborn Station. Amtrak built their new maintenance facilities along their former Pennsylvania Railroad trackage north of the south branch of the Chicago River between 12th and 16th Streets in the late 70’s. With the opening of this facility all the remaining Santa Fe trackage at 21st Street along with the yard and servicing facilities along the south side of the IC between 21st and 16th Streets were abandoned and removed.
One final correction, the mileage used on the IC was not measured as mileage from the end of the Electric District trackage at Randolph Street Station, but rather from the south bank of the Chicago River in downtown Chicago. This is about a half-mile north of the Randolph Street Station. At one time there were two sets of milepost used on the portions of the Chicago Sub, but they were gone by the time I began operating on this segment of the railroad in 1986 with the CCP. Or at least I don’t recall seeing them anyway.
With all that clarified, it is now time to proceed with the remaining leg of our trip to Markham. This portion of the trip usually allows us the highest track speeds in which we can operate on this particular run. But with so much going on and so much to see along the way, it will take a bit longer to get you there
When I left you last, we had just emerged from the tunnel underneath McCormick Place West and were passing under the Stevenson Expressway, I-55. I did not make a notation of the mileage locations of the Metra stations between McCormick Place and Chicago’s Hyde Park neighborhood as they are all designated by streets, so we’ll mention them by their street names and applicable neighborhood locations.
The first station we pass is the 27th Street platform. In 1972 there was a horrible and tragic collision between two suburban train here that lead to multiple deaths and scores injured. A train made up of the then new MU Highliners overshot the platform and then backed up to it. In the overshoot, they cleared the block and the signal for the train following in the block behind them came up to an approach indication. After passing this signal, the second train’s Engineer was unaware of the events transpiring ahead of him with that first train overshooting and now backing up to the platform.
When he came around the curve up to 27th Street, the Engineer of the following train discovered this first train, which he believed had departed 27th Street based upon the signal encountered coming up to an approach indication, was now stopped at the platform ahead. The Engineer of the second train was unable to stop in time and rammed the first train. The second train involved was still using the old conventional, single level, heavyweight, green coaches and they literally carved right through the new, lighter Highliners. This collision lead to a rule change that expressly prohibits any electric train from backing up while on the main tracks under any circumstances other than test purposes. If the Engineer overshoots a platform, they must change ends, get an air test and then obtain permission to make a reverse move on that track.
Now back to our trip. We had a clear indication on the signal at 1225, so we know we should expect a favorable signal at the control point at 39th Street. We are still proceeding at 10 MPH until the entire length of the train clears the tunnel.
I began to try contacting Foreman Melvin Fulwilley as we emerged from the tunnel. Melvin and his track gang are doing some work on the main tracks and are protected by a planned work authority. This means I must contact him before any part of my train passes through his limits, which this day are between milepost 6 and 9. Melvin has to give me permission to pass through his limits before I am authorized to proceed. He does so by informing me that his men and equipment are working on track number two and that we have permission to proceed southward through his planned work limits with no speed restrictions other than what we carry on our TGBO (Tabular General Bulletin Order). He also instructs me to sound the whistle and ring the bell as we pass his workers.
I repeat these instructions and get his okay and we are now permitted to proceed through the length of his limits without stopping. The intent of contacting Melvin so far in advance of his limits is so that he can get his people in the clear and hopefully eliminate the need for us to have to stop first before we enter his limits. Being that McCormick Place tunnel is like the dark side of the moon when it comes to radio signals I had to wait until we had the engines clear of it before I could begin to attempt to contact Melvin for instructions.
The parallel Metra Electric District is four tracks along side of us here. At one time it had six tracks. The Chicago Sub is two tracks, but was at one time four tracks, with two freight and two passenger mains. The freight mains came out in favor of the passenger mains when Amtrak came along and the IC’s Central Station and the associated 27th Street Yard and servicing facilities were eliminated. A portion was left between 31st and 37th Streets and became a two-track interchange yard (dubbed 31st Street) with the Chicago & Northwestern. The CNW would deliver cars to the IC at 31st Street and pull the cars the IC left for them there. This method lasted into the UP days at the CNW but has since been abandoned in favor of interchange through the Indiana Harbor Belt for excessive height cars and via Hawthorne Yard for all other traffic. Today 31st Street is used to store bad order cars.
Back when I first started at the CCP, the tracks were numbered differently than they are now. After the ICG sold off the Electric District to Metra, they made the change. From west to east they previously were numbered 1, 2, 3, 4 (Electric) and 5, 6 (Freight) between downtown and Kensington. In 1988 the tracks still under ICG control were renumbered from the west 1, 2, 3, 4. From 67th Street to Kensington the tracks now known as 3 and 4 thoroughfare were 7 and 8. From Kensington to Stuenkel where there were only two Electric tracks the freight mains were 3 and 4, the thoroughfare tracks 5 and 6. Clear as mud, right? Pay close attention, as there will be a quiz on this later.
From the south end of McCormick Place to about 31st Street, Lake Michigan is visible to the east. When the trees are clear of leaves, it is really easy to see it as the fourth of the five Great Lakes is less than half a mile from the railroad. At one time, the lake was right here and the railroad used a causeway built above it to cross and reach downtown Chicago. But that was well before my time.
As we roll past 31st Street Yard we swing around the super-elevated curve at milepost 4. To the west of all the tracks and back up away from the right of way looms a tall pedestal with a statue at the top. This is the famous Illinois politician Stephen Douglas. If you recall your US History, you might recall reading about the Lincoln-Douglas debates that took place in Freeport, IL. This was the Douglas that Abraham Lincoln debated. Douglas leant assistance and support to the Illinois Central in order for them to obtain land and build their railroad. In this honor to him, he gets to overlook the railroad in perpetuity.
As continue a little south of the curve at milepost 4 the tail end of the train has now exited the tunnel and I begin to accelerate the train in the attempt to gain track speed of 50 MPH. The speed for freight and intermodal trains is 50 MPH and 65 for passenger on both tracks between milepost 2.7 and Homewood. There is a 60 MPH restriction for passenger and 40 MPH for freight trains through the curve at milepost 4 though and then a 25 MPH restriction through the Kensington interlocking limits for all trains.
Just south of 31st Street Yard is the 39th Street overhead. The signal for 39th Street is just beyond that and can be hard to see when approaching it from the north. Again with that way of placing signals in the most inconvenient places for viewing, an industry trend that goes back to the beginning of the use of signals for governing train movements. When you cannot see the aspect on the top unit of this two-unit signal, it normally means we have a clear indication, normally. And being that I had a clear at the last signal, I should expect nothing worse than an approach signal here.
At night you have the advantage of seeing the reflection of the green light of the clear signal on the rails. During the day though, no such luck. But like I said, we had the clear at 18th Street so I should not expect a stop or restricting (flashing red) signal. As it comes into full view, I can now plainly see it does indeed display a clear (green) signal. The signals at 39th Street protect the universal crossovers located here. There are two sets of crossovers that allow trains to crossover to and from either track in either direction. Unfortunately though, when this plant was built and cut in during the mid-1990’s, they opted to use low speed 10-MPH crossovers instead of something faster. Whenever we crossover here, it is an additional delay even though we are not stopping to do so.
39th Street was built to replace the single set of crossovers that were in service at 23rd Street. 23rd Street now sits directly underneath McCormick Place West and although the plant is long gone, careful observation reveals where it was located.
Near 43rd Street was pass what once was the connection to the Chicago Junction Railway. A line looped off the freight mains and then passed overhead to reach the CJ. This was how the IC affected interchange with the New York Central. The CJ was long part of the NYC empire. If you look to the west of here, you can see the remains of the CJ as it was elevated through this area. The overpass spanning the IC tracks has long since been removed. In fact, I don’t even recall seeing it back in 1986.
At 47th Street is the recently rebuilt 47th Street (Kenwood) Metra stop. As recently as the mid-1980's Metra wanted to close this station and eliminate it completely. The residents of the Kenwood neighborhood protested and came up with the money and people to preserve the stop. Metra just finished a complete rebuild of this station last month so it just goes to show you that sometimes the squeaky wheel does get oiled.
At 49th Street is a long closed tower located just west of the Metra right of way. Metra uses brick tower to house switching equipment used for their operations and also as a headquarters for the Signal Maintainer assigned to this portion of the Electric District.
At milepost 5.4 we meet and pass train 497, (Battle Creek to Union Pacific at Proviso Yard). Today this train is led by UP SD70M 4377. At this point our speed is a whopping 17 MPH and I am in run 8 pulling about 950 amps of power to the traction motors underneath me. We are climbing a very slight ascending grade here as we rise out of the Lake Michigan basin.
We now enter the northern most end of the Hyde Park community of Chicago. There are three Metra stations located in Hyde Park, the 51st/53rd, 55th/57th and 59th Street stations. Both the 51st/53rd and 55th/57th stations are going through a complete rebuilding process with each of them better than half completed. Chicago’s world famous Museum of Science and Industry is located several blocks to the east of the Chicago Sub and can be plainly seen. It is located at 57th Street and Lakeshore Drive.
Signal 1667 displays a clear signal (green over red). This indication tells me that in addition to the clear block we also have a favorable signal at the 67th Street control point and will remain on track number one from there to Kensington.
To the east of the 59th Street platforms stands the renowned University of Chicago. UC features quite the history including being the home of the Manhattan Project that developed the world’s first atomic bomb. A much-heralded hospital is also located there. The beautiful bride’s best friend is an ER nurse at this hospital.
In years past, the Chicago Transit Authority had one of their "El" lines that spanned across all of the IC tracks at 62nd Street. This portion of the line was abandoned sometime in the late 70’s and eventually the bridge supporting the line removed. Prior to its removal though, it interfered with viewing the old signals that were in place at 67th Street. If you had an approach signal coming south into 67th, you had to have the train really slowed down as you could not see the signal at 67th until you were just about under this CTA overhead. Once this bridge was removed, the visibility greatly improved.
Another Metra station is located at 63rd Street. At one time there was also an inter-city station here along the IC passenger mains as well, but that has long since vanished. There remains evidence of it with portions of the concrete platform and a few light standards still intact. To the east of the Chicago Sub at this location sits Mount Carmel High School. This is a very well known Catholic High School as many famous, and not so famous boys have attended this school over the years. One of the more famous is NFL quarterback Donovan McNabb and one of the not quite so famous (although quite popular around this house) is the father of the beautiful bride.
At milepost 8.17 is the 67th Street control point. We have a clear (green over red) signal. There are universal crossovers here that, like 39th Street, are the 10 MPH variety. At one time there was a connection to the Electric District tracks here as the IC used to have industries to service along the Electric including the coal fired power plant at the university. Those industries that remain no longer use rail service and the power plant converted to natural gas many years ago. Metra has a large brick tower here with an Operator that controls their movements on their trackage. In years past, this tower used to control IC movements as well. But when the connection between the two lines was finally removed the IC gave control of their railroad to the Desk One Dispatcher at Homewood.
With the changes made here also came new signals. The signals that were previously mounted on the catenaries were changed to ground mount signals on poles. The old southward signals remain mounted on the catenaries but are turned away from the railroad.
Up to around 1990, 67th Street was also the northern terminus for tracks three and four. While they were essentially yard tracks, they did reach this point and were used on a regular basis. First track four was cut back, then later on track three was also removed.
At the south end of the plant of 67th Street, the CTC ends and we begin automatic block signal operation. Both tracks are signaled for movement in each direction (often referred to as reverse signaled) and we operate by signal indication. However, there are no controlled signals (signals controlled by the Train Dispatcher) between here and the home signal at Kensington. At one time each track had an assigned current of traffic with track one being designated as southbound and track two being northbound. We needed verbal authority to move against the current of traffic (the opposite direction of the stated current meaning north on the southbound or south on the northbound) between these two points. Now that we have block signals in both directions, the current of traffic on each track was eliminated. We simply follow the indications displayed by them and proceed accordingly.
At about milepost 9.5 is the Metra 75th Street (Grand Crossing station). Just south of the station are the former Conrail Chicago Line (now part of Norfolk Southern) and the Chicago Skyway (I-90) overheads. The NS lines comprise of two separate railroads. At one time the New York Central and Pennsylvania paralleled each other here literally, side by side. The Central was the north set of tracks with the Penny being the south set. In 1972 Penn Central, created with the merger of these two roads, rationalized the trackage through here making the Central’s route yard and running tracks opting to make the parallel Pennsy route the through route main tracks.
South of these overheads was once a connection between the IC and Pennsylvania and later Penn Central Railroads. The connection is long gone but if you look to the east, you can spot the remains of the bridge the connection track used to span a road below. You can also see the embankment that rose away from the IC tracks.
At milepost 10 is the former Nickel Plate Road overhead. NKP successor N&W abandoned this route back in the 70’s. It was hoped and even announced in the media that the portion of this line between the IC and the connection to the Chicago Line at 72nd Street would resurrected. The plan called for a new connection to be built between the IC and this abandoned trackage. Amtrak and IC trains would then use this route to reach into the downtown area of Chicago by using the long removed connection on the Chicago Line at 72nd Street that was called JY in NYC and Penn Central days. Don’t look for this plan to commence anytime soon though, if ever.
Just south of the overhead is the switch that connects to the northern end of tracks three and four and the north end of Fordham Yard. Into the late 80’s or early 90’s Norfolk Southern used to perform interchange with the IC here at Fordham. Their trackage still was in service up to Fordham at that point in time. The Chicago, West Pullman & Southern also interchanged with the IC here although they performed their work at the south end of the yard. Coal trains to and from the South Shore are also interchanged. Today Fordham Yard with only three tracks now is used to interchange all traffic with the Shore and West Pullman successor Chicago Rail Link. There is also an industry that receives rail service here called Merigold and cars for them are stored at Fordham as well.
Also just south of the NKP overhead is the Metra 79th Street (Chatham) station.
As we roll on south we pass the 83rd Street (Avalon Park), 87th Street (Woodruff) and 91st Street (Chesterfield) Metra stations.
At milepost 11.85 is the Norfolk Southern, Belt Railway of Chicago and Chicago Rail Link overhead. The south end of Fordham Yard is just north of here as is a wye track that connects to the Belt up at Pullman Jct. about half a mile east of here. At one time the rail lines overhead here were the Belt, Chicago & Western Indiana and Rock Island. NS took over the CWI trackage through here in 1983 and Chicago Rail Link through its LaSalle & Bureau County predecessor took over the Rock trackage when that line ceased operations in 1980.
Just south of the overhead is the wye track that connects the NS to the Chicago Sub. At one time this wye was used to link the IC and the Rock Island at Pullman Jct. In 1988 NS acquired this track, rehabbed it and paid the IC to install a power operated switch where this track connected to track four. This is the north end of their trackage rights on the CNIC that extends to Gibson City, IL and allowed them to abandon their own Forrest District between Gibson City and the old Arsenal south of Joliet in favor the IC route.
Also just south of the overhead is Metra’s 95th Street (Chicago State University) station. At one time the IC’s Burnside Shops were located on the part of what is now Chicago State University. CSU is located on the west side of the Electric District. These shops were abandoned and raised when Woodcrest Shops opened in 1970.
We roll passed a clear signal at 11237, the signal that governs the approach to Kensington. This signal tells us there will be no stop there today for cross traffic and also that we will continue to proceed south on track one.
We cross above the Ford Freeway (Illinois Route 394) and pass Metra’s 103rd (Rosemoor) and 107th Street.
At milepost 14 we pass the 111th Street (Pullman) Metra station, then on the east side the remains of the Pullman Palace Car Company and then the Pullman Mansion. If you saw the movie "Road to Perdition" you would have seen both of these structures. In fact, the mansion played a significant role in the movie as it was shown several times as it was the home of Paul Newman’s character. While I never observed any filming actually taking place, I did see the preparation work like the artificial snow on the ground and all the vintage automobiles used in the movie parked on the Pullman plant grounds.
The old factory suffered a major fire in early 1999, but there are plans to restore much of it including the historic clock tower which was damaged, but not lost. A museum is planned for this sight.
This is the historic Pullman neighborhood of Chicago. At one time George Pullman literally owned the neighborhood. His workers lived in company owned homes and shopped at Pullman owned stores. Talk about a planned community. A bitter and violent strike took place which brought about the end of Pullman’s iron rule. Today, the Pullman neighborhood exists with many historic old homes. Guided tours are conducted through this area from time to time.
At milepost 14.37 we encounter the home signals for Kensington. The Metra station is located just north of where the South Shore connects and enters Metra trackage. We have a clear signal to proceed through the plant here. There are universal crossovers here with one set located north of the South Shore crossing and the other set located just south of the crossing. The South Shore actually crosses us at milepost 14.61. They use this crossing to reach Metra’s Electric District as the South Shore proper ends/begins at Kensington. There is a connection for the Shore to reach the Chicago Sub at Kensington as well.
A connection also exists between the Chicago Sub and the Electric District. This is the last remaining connection between the two lines. This connection has not been used in some time though as the last industry on the Electric District to use rail service burned down and closed last year.
The brick tower stands on the east side of the Chicago Sub just north of the South Shore. A Metra Operator who controls all the moves for all three railroads involved staffs it. The Operator must work with the CNIC Desk One Dispatcher who authorizes all movements on the Chicago Sub.
An interesting note about the crossing at Kensington, the overhead wires sometimes play havoc on units equipped with cab signals. Twice I have had a Conrail unit as my leader and had the cab signal system, which was dormant, energize, display a restricting indication and have the alarm go off notifying me of the change to a more restricting signal. Simply acknowledging the system would not appease the demand from it for a reaction on my part. I had to perform a specific sequence of tasks to get around this problem and keep the train moving. Once cleared of the interlocking limits, the cab signal system went dormant again returning things to normal. I could then undo the steps I had to take to override the system and then begin throttling out to continue the journey.
At Kensington the Electric District goes from four main tracks down to just two and a running track called the Blue Island Lead. This lead goes to Blue Island Jct. about half a mile south of here and connects to the Electric District’s Blue Island Branch.
At milepost 14.78 at the south end of the Kensington plant is the CTC entrance block signal. The Desk One Dispatcher controls this signal and its indication is the authority to proceed. At the entrance block the centralized traffic control system begins again.
About a quarter mile south of Kensington is the MoPac (nee C&WI Dolton Branch) overhead. I know, it is really the Union Pacific today, but it’ll always be the MoPac to me. This double track line, taken over by the MoPac in 1983, is used jointly by UP and CSX trains as well as Soo Line trackage rights trains. It is also part of the railroad in which I cut my teeth on as a cub railroader.
We duck under this bridge with five tracks, the two mains, tracks three and four thoroughfare and fourteen pocket, a storage track about a third-mile long that connects back into four just south of the MoPac overhead. Track four was undercut in 1988 to allow the passage of high cars like multilevel auto racks. This project was paid for by NS as part of their trackage rights deal to allow them to operate their trains without any restrictions to the car heights between their connection at 95th Street and Gibson City.
Just south of where Metra’s Blue Island Branch breaks away from their line sits KYD. This is the modern shop used for heavy repairs on the MU Highliner equipment. They also do rebuilds on the diesel hauled gallery cars and perform repairs to some of their Maintenance of Way equipment. KYD also houses the Passenger Assistance Link Center more commonly known as "PAL Center." Other Metra offices are also located here. Metra built this facility after the IC wanted them to vacate the space they were leasing at Woodcrest.
In years past, there was a coach storage yard located on the KYD grounds that was called KYD back in those days too. By the late 80’s this yard was no longer being used to store coaches during off peak and weekend periods.
Continuing on south we encounter the control point at milepost 15.5 (the north end of this plant and the signal are actually at 15.39). It is called both "fifteen five" or Wildwood. The timetable says Wildwood but old habits tend to die hard and many of us still call it fifteen five. The original Wildwood was about a mile south of here. There are power crossover switches between all the tracks here. This was another project paid for by NS. Their northbound trains can crossover from tracks one or two all the way over to track four or southward from four over to one or two without stopping if they have the proper signal. We have yet another clear signal and proceed on south.
To the east of the Chicago Sub at this point used to be two separate facilities. One was a transloading facility in which bulk products like flour, sugar and plastic pellets were pumped out of railcars and into trucks. This facility had two tracks for this purpose. This facility was relocated to within Markham Yard back in the early 90’s. Beyond the transloading facility was Wildwood Yard, once the sight of an automobile unloading yard. Back in ICG days, the philosophy was to work this yard when it was timely for the railroad and not its customer GM. Tired of the poor service, GM came to the MoPac and a new facility was built along their Chicago Sub on the north side of Chicago Heights. With the opening of that facility, Wildwood was closed and the property sold to the City of Chicago.
Today Wildwood Yard is now a processing facility for the Metropolitan Sanitary District of Chicago. The sewage that comes from sanitary sewers (like the stuff from your toilets) is pumped here after processing where it is spread out and dried, then loaded into trucks and hauled away. Rubber-tired front-end loaders with augers on the front of them stir this stuff around to speed the drying process. How’d you like to be the guy working one of these machines on a hot day when the air conditioner quits? Talk about a job that really stinks! The neighbors are also really thrilled with having this facility around as well. It does get quite ripe around here on hot summer days. And the drivers who haul this stuff out are speaking the truth when they comment about having a "shitload" of cargo.
In between the Sanitary District and the Chicago Sub is Cook County Lumber. This facility recently expanded into a large distribution facility and pulled the old transloading facility tracks out of the mud, added more trackage and installed a paved, lighted and fenced in lot. They receive rail service five or six days per week now with numerous loaded box and flat cars spotted there for unloading.
At milepost 16.47 there used to be signals on a catenary. After a derailment last year this catenary was knocked down. It also brought down all the wire on the two Electric District tracks bringing all service to a halt for over a day. The signals were never put back up on the CNIC side and Metra quickly built a stand-alone pole to support the wire.
Off track four here is the connection to CSX’s former Baltimore & Ohio Chicago Terminal and was the original Wildwood. We interchange cars on a daily basis with CSX here. We leave their cars on track three south of the crossover switches between tracks three and four and they leave theirs north of the connection on track four and just south of 15.5.
At milepost 16.9 we cross the Grand Calumet River over a large bridge. We refer to this as "the big river bridge." Just south of this bridge we pass over CSX and the remaining portion of the old "Panhandle" which was part of the Pennsylvania’s Columbus to Chicago route. Today it is owned by NS and used to operate their bottle trains into and out of the recently reopened ISG Riverdale steel plant. This was the old Acme Steel plant of which I wrote about in my bottle train piece a couple of years ago.
A tragic collision occurred here in 1969 when a northbound coal train rear-ended an auto train that was crossing over at Wildwood (when there were switches located there from the mains). The coal train piled up and dumped coal out onto the B&OCT and Penn Central railroads below blocking them. Several railroaders were killed in this wreck.
We pass the Riverdale Metra station at milepost 17.37
At milepost 17.8 we pass above the Indiana Harbor Belt. At signal 17.98 we encounter yet another clear signal. This location is called Highlawn and features a connection with the IHB. Like at the CSX connection, we interchange cars here with the IHB. They shove their cars up the hill and onto either three or four and pick up cars we left for them on either three or four. At Highlawn there are crossovers between tracks two, three and four.
There was a Switchtender on duty here daily from 0800 to 1600 up until the very late 1980’s. He handled all the switches here and regardless of signal indications displayed on tracks two, three or four, you had to receive and hand signal from him to proceed.
There is another track that begins at Highlawn and heads south as far as 57th Street. This is track 7. It still carries its old number from before the great track-renumbering scheme of 1988. Why? Who knows, it is just another one of those railroad things.
Today we passed the Markham Local working Highlawn. He had taken over from R934, the Glenn Yard-Markham Transfer (aka Job 7) who had gone dead on the hours. Today they had the IC 6014 in the lead and were in the process of setting out the cars for the IHB.
We continue along passing the station at Ivanhoe (Dolton) at milepost 18.3, span the little Calumet River at 18.8 and pass the Sibley Boulevard Metra station at 18.99
At milepost 19.53 is the connection Elsdon Sub (former Grand Trunk Western) with the north leg of the wye at CN Jct. This wye connects to Thoroughfare four.
At milepost 19.88 was once a catenary that also had block signals 11989 and 21989 going south and 11988 and 21988 going north. Another derailment last year at this location brought this catenary and signals down as well. The downed catenary also brought Metra to a screaming halt for several days.
At milepost 20 is the Harvey Metra station.
Just south of there at milepost 20.2 is 157th Street. At this location are numerous crossovers between all the tracks. There are also the southeast and southwest legs of the wye that connect the Chicago and Elsdon Subs. From this point you can also enter the north end of Markham Yard. This location is also referred to as Harvey. At the present time all the switches here are of the hand operated variety. There are long term plans to mechanize and power all this up making it a control point. Of course we’ve been hearing this for several years.
There was a Switchtender located here for many years. One fateful night in 1979, a new and inexperienced Switchtender misunderstood the directions he received and proceeded to line a northbound Amtrak train directly into the path of a southbound intermodal train. This misunderstanding lead to a head on collision between the two trains which resulted in several deaths.
Markham Yard was opened for business on April 1st, 1926 and named for a former IC president. At one time Markham boasted two hump yards, the south hump on the west side and the north hump on the east side. Cars coming in from the south going north were pulled into A Yard at Homewood where they were humped in to the north hump’s B Yard and then pulled down into C Yard at Harvey for northbound departure. Southbound trains entered Markham at Harvey pulling into D Yard; the cars were shoved over the south hump into E Yard and pulled down in F Yard for departure south.
The way the yard was laid out, A Yard was parallel to F Yard, B Yard parallel to E Yard and C Yard parallel to D Yard. The RIP Track was located in between the two hump yards. Woodcrest sits on far east side of A Yard. A clean out yard was located in between F and A Yards, which was later used for the transloading of steel between trucks and railcars.
There was a General Yardmaster in charge of the entire show. He coordinated moves with the Harvey and E Yard Yardmasters as well as the Train Director that was located at Homewood. The Train Director controlled the switches and signals at Homewood, 15.5 and 95th Street and coordinated moves on the main tracks in conjunction with the Train Dispatcher.
The south hump was closed in July of 1989 and the north hump was closed in October of 1990. All classification work was then performed by switching the cars into the bottom end of the E Yard using the flat switching method. With this change occurred some disastrous results. In one of the very first days of the new method of operation a cut of steel coils rolled back out of a track plowing directly into a trio of switchers turning one of them completely sideways and another over on its side.
Today B Yard and part of C Yard are Moyers Intermodal Terminal, MIT. E Yard and D Yard are now Gateway Intermodal Terminal. The lion’s share of classification work is done in A Yard by flat switching. Some classification work is also done in F Yard as necessary.
Only the General remains to run the show today. The RIP track is still in place and Lewis Rail, a rail welding plant is located immediately to the east of the RIP. The clean out yard is also long gone.
Today we will not enter the yard at Harvey but instead are instructed to take the train to Homewood. Normally under these circumstances, we take all or part of our train south of the plant at Homewood and back into the yard. We just keep right on rolling at Harvey without having to stop.
On our way to Homewood we pass a clear signal at 12057 and then an approach signal at 12211. This signal governs our approach to the control point at Homewood. The approach signal tells me I must be prepared to stop before passing the signal at Homewood. On our way to Homewood we pass the Hazel Crest (milepost 22.2) and Calumet (milepost 22.7) Metra stations.
As we come into Homewood we encounter several railroad landmarks, the path, the Amtrak station and the Metra station. The path is just that, a path from the two mains and two thoroughfare tracks through a little wooded section to F Yard and access to the Homewood shanty. Trains are often instructed to "stop at the path". This little path is located at milepost 23.2. At 23.37 is the very north end of the Amtrak station platform, which sits between tracks one and two. The Metra station platform begins at 23.5.
Just north of the Amtrak platform on track two at 22.35 is the high car detector. While it doesn’t look like much it is carries vital importance. No cars higher than seventeen feet can operate north of 15.5 on any track except thoroughfare four. And no cars in excess of seventeen feet can operate north of 95th Street on any track. This detector uses a beam of light. Should the beam be broken, the detector reads this as a high car and a signal is displayed on a signal bridge at 21.30. The detector for track one is located at 22.88.
The north end of the Homewood plant is located at milepost 23.61. We arrived there at 1038 getting a diverging clear (red over red over green) signal which tells me we will cross over from track one to track three. I pull the train south through the plant slowing to drop off the Conductor at the south end of the plant. I encounter an approach signal at 32418 (an exception to the signal numbering scheme) and proceed to pull the entire train south of the plant as instructed by the Markham General Yardmaster. Conductor Voss counts me down and gives me the instructions on when to stop once the tail end of the train is clear of the plant. He will then guide me back into the yard when we get the instructions and signal to proceed.
At Homewood, we get a third main track back. This track extends some 9200 feet between Homewood and Vollmer Road. There used to be four main tracks here but what once was track two came out in 1989 and is now a road for company vehicles. Track three and four were then designated as tracks two and three respectively.
There is a little crossing just south of the signal bridge at the south end of the Homewood plant called Hines. There used to be a Hines Lumber store here and a switch came off track three and went into their yard where loads of lumber were routinely spotted for unloading. The place has since closed and the tracks removed and a park put in where the store and lot once stood. We now have a road here with a little crossing to allow company vehicles access to the right of way. Even though Hines has been gone for years, the spot is still called that, Hines. Remember, I’ve always said that old habits die hard on the railroad.
In pulling my entire train south of Homewood, I pass a northbound train stopped at Hines with no crew on board. The IC 1014 was in the lead. I also passed the Flossmoor Metra station at milepost 24.9 and stopped about five cars north of the signal at Vollmer Road, which is about milepost 26.
After all of our efforts, we finally get the train shoved into the yard in several different tracks at 1220.
So this little journey took three hours, twenty-eight minutes just to get from Hawthorne to Homewood and then another hour and twenty-two minutes to get the train yarded. But we made it, did it safely, without any mishaps and in compliance with all the rules. As I always say at the end of each trip, nothing got wrecked, nobody got hurt and best of all, nobody got fired.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2003 by JD Santucci
I'm sure not many of you enter TransiTalk directly from the home page (www.transitalk.org) and skip straight to the pics and other media. But I was just wondering, if you have seen the main intro page, what is that song that plays on that Flash movie intro? I just heard it for the first time just awhile ago and it's pretty catchy.
GO TERPS!!!
Go check out http://www.geocities.co.jp/SilkRoad-oasis/5002/
It has pictures of the subway cars in all the Japanese cities, and includes suburban trains with through metro runnings!
I tried, all I get is text (in Japanese) and no pictures.
My mistake.
The try http://www.geocities.co.jp/SilkRoad-Oasis/5002/
The previous address I posted used a lower case o in Oasis. With the address above, I was able to log on.
Great site, thanks. Now I want to see photos of the pushers doing their job :-)
Is it me, or are these some NARROW gauge tracks?
Isn' much of japan narrow gauge? I thought the big thing with the Shinkansens was that they were standard gauge to allow for greater stability at high speeds (IIRC, the narrow gauge of the Japanese railroads played a part in an ICBM hunt in Tom Clancy's Debt of Honor, the missiles were moved via Shinkansen standard gauge tracks, all they had to do was look for a spur that went nowhere [hope I didn't ruin it for anyone reading it]).
Hi!
I'm everyday subway rider in Tokyo.
Most of railways in Japan are narrow gauge. (Except Shinkansen and some lines.)
I heard the reason was that narrow gauge truck is better for the country where many areas are mountain. (In such country like Japan, railway often must curve sharp.)
Thank you for the info....and WELLCOME.
Peace,
ANDEE
Muneyoshi ... Arrigato! Thanks for the information!
I have been amazed at the number of commuter and subway lines throughout Japan. I suppose it helps to have a very densely populated area to make so many lines work financially. I've always been a fan of JR - in fact, I have a number of Kato models in N gauge on my desk here in upstate New York (no subways here) and have always been fond of the JR-103's ... are they still running? (they're rather old). In addition to having 3 four car sets of them running on my N gauge track, they're also my favorites in the Boso View Express train simulator along with of course New York City subway cars also done for BVE.
Since Densha de Go! never made it to Windows based computers here in the US, and MSTS is no thrill compared to BVE, Boso View (oh, if only gaigin knew what "Boso" means, heh) is about as good as it gets. Do you play with BVE yourself? The reason I ask is that I have a request of the author, Mackoy but he only speaks Japanese and doesn't answer his email if it's in English ...
Is there an equivalent for NYC Subway Resources for Tokyo?
Hey, for a second I thought that this one was an R-44 in the original paint scheme:
http://www.geocities.co.jp/SilkRoad-Oasis/5002/tpe.html
That is the photo of Taipei Subway's Blue line at Shimen station.
Chaohwa
It's interesting that a good many of those subway photos are of trains that are catenary driven. I'm not saying that the lack of 3rd rail makes them not subways, it's just an interesting contrast between the design philosophies.
The distinction between a subway and a suburban train service is not as rigid worldwide as the FRA rules make it in the USA. Tokyo has a large subway system, but also has services on some suburban rail lines that are so frequent that they can be used like a subway.
Berlin has the U-Bahn which is a true municipal subway and the S-Bahn which is technically suburban rail (and is a subsidiary company of Deutsche Bahn) - but there is complete interavailability of tickets and thus free transfers between the two systems.
Anyway, why should a subway not have catenary? Presumably the reason most don't is that the tunnels would have had to be built with greater headroom to fit them in, and as tunnelling is expensive, third rail makes for less initial capital cost. At least catenaries in tunnels don't blow down in high winds....... (8-) !
Hello
I'm everyday subway rider in Tokyo, JAPAN.
Actually the oldest two subway lines in tokyo has 3rd rail. The oldest Ginza Line and 2nd oldest Marunouchi Line.
Because of 3rd rail, they can't connect to suburban commuter lines.
The reason why almost subway lines in Tokyo has catenary is connection of suburban commuter lines. Until late 60s, subways, commuter line of private company, and Japan National Railservice (once owned by nation) extent separately. But exploding popultation of suburban area makes the commuting as a hell. (that makes the term 'commuting hell' in Tokyo)
During 70s and 80s, many new subways ware built and commuter line and JNRs connected to subway.
In some area, suburban commuter lines seems like a extension of subways. It's like el section of subway out of manhattan. In other area, subways run parallel to commuter lines. suburban commuter lines serves as an express truck. Almost subway in Tokyo has only 2 trucks, so they are all local service.
We also have Metro Card called Pass Net -- a kind of pre paid card. If you have a Pass Net, You can ride every subway and suburban commuter line in Tokyo but can't ride JR (former JNR).
The fare varies depend on distance. I ride commuter line and then subway for an hour. It costs 22,000 yen ($183) per month, but usually the company pays that money for emploee.
The sad thing about subway in Tokyo is that playing music or performance in station is prohibited. I hope that subway station in Tokyo become like a Times Square station where you can enjoy the beautiful music playing by street musicians.
The sad thing about subway in Tokyo is that playing music or performance in station is prohibited. I hope that subway station in Tokyo become like a Times Square station where you can enjoy the beautiful music playing by street musicians.
That's a great New York asset. It is one of the things that makes the subway interesting and cultural and fun to ride. The subway would not be the same without them.
Try convincing Train Dude of that...
:0)
Welcome to SubTalk!
It's too bad you don't have subway musicians in Tokyo. I live in Philadelphia and there usually aren't musicians in our subways, either. I don't know if it is illegal for musicians to play in the subway, but I do know that our police sometimes give musicians a hard time if they try to play there.
Mark
No, we got the incense merchants!
I always wondered how they got that stuff through the fare control gates, all of them are manned, so you can't just stand at an unmanned gate and pass it from one person to another. I suppose you'd need a Transpass and a duffle bag or something. Then again, maybe the station attendant is in on it.
BTW: I watched one of these guys work the other day. I gotta say, they are SOOO organized, you'd never think it, when they thrust little wooden sticks with stuff on the end in your face as you try to get to the BSS from the MFL. I decided to sit and watch the show of trains about 5:30 or so at the city hall MFL platform. All I wound up watching the incense merchants. One would get off a train, walk over to the sitters, hand in his money, and they would stuff it in a piggybank or safe of some kind, he'd get on the next train while his colleague got off and did the exact same thing. Amazing.
it seems you can take still photos ..
am i right about that ?
it seems you can take still photos ..
am i right about that ?
it seems you can take still photos ..
am i right about that ?
How many meters wide are the narrow gauge tracks?
It is 3'6" (1067mm) instead of 4'8˝" (1435mm) standard gauge. However, some of the railway lines are in standard gauge. Moreover, there are other gauges such as 4'6" (1372mm) and others.
Don't know the situation now, but when I lived in Barcelona (thirty years ago) two of the Metro lines were third rail and two were catenary, plus the suburban/city (Ferrocarriles Catalanes) lines and the RENFE lines were catenary. Plus there were a variety of track gauges in use.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's still the same. Go to www.metropla.net under Barcelona for detailed description.
Check out http://tokyorai.hp.infoseek.co.jp/index.html
It has color photos of Tokyo's subways, commuter trains, and monorails.
Interesting site. Thanks for posting it.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-lirr0108,0,3413709.story?coll=ny%2Dtop%2Dheadlines
East-Side LIRR Tab Rises $1B
Grand Central plan updated
By Joie Tyrell
Staff Writer
January 8, 2003
The projected cost of the East Side Access project that would connect the Long Island Rail Road to Grand Central Terminal has jumped by almost a billion dollars.
The price tag, according to Metropolitan Transportation Authority documents, has increased 21 percent from $4.35 billion to $5.27 billion after estimates from a pre-1998 study were recently revised.
Some commuter watchdog groups questioned Tuesday if the increase would affect the project's scope. Connections are expected to be built to the existing 63rd Street tunnels under the East River, allowing LIRR trains to travel between Jamaica and Grand Central.
Currently, the LIRR has no access to Grand Central, which now serves Metro-North. The LIRR shares Penn Station with Amtrak and New Jersey Transit.
"The big thing about it is the MTA has always said they will fund 50 percent, but they are hoping for the federal government to fund the other 50 percent,? said Beverly Dolinsky, executive director of the Long Island Rail Road Commuter's Council. "You are asking the feds for almost $3 billion for this one project, and my question is: Is it realistic??
Peter Haynes, president of another commuter group, said he wasn't surprised the project's costs have jumped.
"Just about everything that the railroad or the MTA does ends up overbudget,? said Haynes, president of the Long Island Rail Road Commuters Campaign. "The bigger it is, the more overbudget it seems to end up.?
The original budget, released in April 2001, was based on a planning study done before 1998, according to briefing papers for the MTA's capital program oversight committee. The Army Corps of Engineers reviewed the project last year and found that the cost could be up to 20 percent more than originally budgeted, fueled partly by a $616 million increase in construction costs and $48 million more in engineering and management costs.
Mitch Pally, vice president for government affairs for the Long Island Association, the region's largest business group, said he expects the project will receive federal funding because it is vital for Long Island. Members of Long Island's congressional delegation have continually lobbied for East Side access.
"From our perspective, it still is one of the most important transportation infrastructure projects for Long Island, and we would hope the funding would continue to be pursued by our congressional delegation,? Pally said. "Obviously as the design and engineering gets closer to completion, one is provided with much better costs of project. I don't think anyone is surprised that the estimate is higher in 2003 than it was in 1998.?
MTA officials did not return calls for comment Tuesday.
The project, expected to be complete around 2011, would serve an estimated 150,000 commuters -- most of whom now travel to Penn Station or Brooklyn before catching a subway or bus to their final destinations.
The hefty price tag for East Side Access makes the competition for resources among major mass transit expansion projects a little more crowded, according to the Tri-State Transportation Campaign, a transit advocacy group. LIRR-Grand Central access is at the head of the line, because its planning, engineering and environmental reviews are all furthest along, according to the group.
But the need for more cash is likely to make the jostling for city, state and federal funding for the Second Avenue subway, the No. 7 train extension and other transit projects even rougher, said Kate Slevin, communications coordinator for Tri-State.
"We're concerned how these projects are going to get done and would like to see what the agenda is for getting them done,? Slevin said.
But the MTA is still going to finish the connection, even if every other plan in the works gets killed :-(
no does this allow metro north to access penn or lirr have trains run from say yankee stadium to long island
There's a separate Metro-North plan to run into Penn via either the West Side Amtrak line or the Hell Gate bridge. As for Yankee Stadium to LI, that would be possible by reversing the train in GCT, but the stickler is that MN and LIRR trains have different 3rd rail systems.
Why the hell does this take priority over 2 Avenue?
It seem that this project is more important than the long defunct 2nd Ave line. Probably MTA wants to expedite a project that benefits 100,000 commuters, most of whom have household incomes of $150,000 and up, while the 2nd Ave subway is still in limbo, but would benefit nearly 1 million daily customers, it effects felt on the Lexington Ave line in a positive way. Aside the fact that East side residents will not have to endure the M15 snail to downtown, Bronx customers may have some breathing room at 125th Street. Again 100,000 rich suburban customers, vs. 1 million city dwellers, you do the math.
Talking to my "brother"who is working in scheduling,Highlights he gave me were V No more 2330 out of 2nd ave Last V will be at 2318.71 continental loses 4 R jobs 95 st gains 4 R jobs which is a good thing.
M service on weekends will get headway adjustment seems them guys make the opto way too quick.Now the biggie The L with full 143 fleet will get major increases in off hour headways,Instead of going to 10 minutes at 1827 the L will run at 6 minutes till 2214 out of Canarsie.Thats a major increase and also makes alot of jobs that were 4 trippers 5 trippers.
10 to 6 on the L appears to be an off hour headway decrease, not an increase.
He said every ten minutes to every six minutes, which is an increase. He didn't say t.p.h.
You're wrong, too. A decrease in headway (time between trains) yields an increase in trains per hour.
Wow, no more R42's on the L by April!!!!
Dame I will miss the 2330 out of 2nd Ave, that's V314 trip. I had that last pick on Wensdays. One of my class mates has if three days a week this pick. I could have had it but it only pays 8hour and I needed alittle more then that. Beside the job sucked.
Robert
"Instead of going to 10 minutes at 1827 the L will run at 6 minutes till 2214 out of Canarsie."
Some of this was implemented long ago. The L schedule I downloaded from the MTA's site in July 2001 (which may or may not be the current schedule) lists 6 minute headways out of Canarsie through 9:13 PM.
So with the schedule adjustments, this gives us a hint that weekend Q service will be running on the Montague Rat-nnel sometime in April.
Well that would mean that the R42's will make its way to CI or other yards eventually, cool. It looks like the R42 will make a return to the Brighton :-), but with the fleet increase then the Q would probably have to go through the rathole :-(. As for the M, lets hope the headway adjustment is an increase.
Do these changes include the weekend tunnel Q.
Also, will the weekend tunnel Q make all local stops, or will it still run express past CAnal?
But the MTA is still going to finish the connection, even if every other plan in the works gets killed :-(
no does this allow metro north to access penn or lirr have trains run from say yankee stadium to long island
There's a separate Metro-North plan to run into Penn via either the West Side Amtrak line or the Hell Gate bridge. As for Yankee Stadium to LI, that would be possible by reversing the train in GCT, but the stickler is that MN and LIRR trains have different 3rd rail systems.
My wife went to the City Saturday & bought some $3 MCs at the LIRR station.
The card looks like the LIRR/MC version, but says "Not Valid For Commuter Rail Transportation" on the LIRR side. Only a collector, like me, finds this of interest.
Just thought I would share with my City friends.
NOT Valid for COMMUTER RAIL TRANSPORTATION
yet it is SOLD at a COMMUTER RAIL location...
(therefore you'd assume a product-venue relation
much like the MVM which sell cards for use in their
said station).
How odd.
Wonder how many tourists buy cards from the LIRR machine
and then try to swipe it on their LIRR C/R's sleeve
as payment of fare?
These were sold by the agent (you could always buy tokens from the agent, now I guess not ... have to ask).
If you buy a LIRR only ticket from the machine it is blank on the back, i.e. the MC side. This one looks like a LIRR/MC card, but it isn't.
Yes Thurston, and would you believe a $3 card like that was auctioned off on ebay ? The seller got about $9.95 for it. I e-mailed him and he told me he found it, so chances are, there wasn't any value on it.
As a collector, I bought one of these $3 cards at the Massapequa station. You can't buy them on the TVM's, only $15 ones are available through the TVM's. I did notice a Metrocard Ticket Machine with monitor and keyboard with swiper bar inside the Ticket Agent's room. That's probably where these $3 MC's come from. I would guess that with this new MTM, monthly and weekly Metrocard Tickets can be produced. Maybe this may be the end of Mail-N-Ride Metrocard Tickets, being that with a credit card, you can purchase those monthly and weekly Metrocard Tickets at any TVM.
Bill "Newkirk"
Man drives down SEPTA tracks
MIDDLETOWN, Pa. -- Middletown Township police said yesterday (January 7) that a New Jersey man, with his three children in the backseat, drove his car down SEPTA tracks and into the path of a speeding train, according to a report by Stephanie L. Arnold that appeared in the Philadelphia Inquirer. Although no one was hurt, police said William Conway 4th, 37, of Robbinsville, N.J., and his three children, ages 8, 11 and 14, came within 100 feet of being crushed by the train in Middletown, Bucks County, about two miles north of the Langhorne Station, about 9 p.m. Sunday.
Authorities said results from a blood alcohol test were pending.
Conway was charged with 11 counts of reckless endangerment, three counts of endangering the welfare of a child and disorderly conduct.
The R3 train heading to West Trenton was carrying eight people. It was delayed for about an hour while a towing company removed Conway's car.
Middletown Township Police Sgt. Ken Mellus said Conway did not give a reason for driving down the tracks.
SEPTA spokesman Gary Fairfax said the train engineer was able to stop because he had been alerted to the car on the tracks in advance.
Conway and his children were transported to the Frankford Bucks Hospital for evaluation.
Conway was held last night in Bucks County Prison, unable to post $45,000 cash bail, police said.
Police said the children's mother picked them up at the hospital and took them home.
(The preceding report by Stephanie L. Arnold appeared in the Philadelphia Inquirer Wednesday, Jan. 8, 2003.)
Truth is indeed stranger than fiction.
--Mark
In Raritan, New Jersey a few Sunday nights ago, a drunk made a turn from the Anderson Street grade crossing on to the tracks. He attempted to drive west on the rails. Luckily, at that time of the week, train traffic is very lite, and most passenger trains turn off from the main toward the yard just west of the station. From what I heard, he drove up the main track and got as far as behind the trainmaster's office before he or his car broke down.
Maybe the railroads should just charge admission...
Or maybe these guys are really volunteers (crash dummies) for Operation Lifesaver...
Charge admission ? GREAT IDEA. Shoreline Museum could have made some money. Two and 1/2 years ago we had the same thing on St. Patrick's when a woman drove down the property. In a druken stupor she called 911 and said she sees overhead wires and is on a RR track.
The 911 operator was told that the gal had been drinking at a bar on US-1. The operator thought she had driven on to Amtrak trackage and part of the (then) recently electrifed corridor between New Haven and Boston was shut down. When the search turned up nothing, one cop realized that the drunk could be at SLTM.
The curator got a call at home, went over to the museum and had to pull the Crane Car (w-3) out of the barn and hoist her and the vehicle to safety. Thankfully she didn't do much damage....Should have charged her, or her insurance company, for Ted's time.
What a story.
Can I tell you how many times people have driven into the Subway -Surface portal at 40th & Woodland in Philly?
It says "KEEP OUT- TROLLEYS ONLY", but nobody reads signs.
I was on a 36 trolley one time and he turned short at the loop at the portal and gave us emergency passses. Some one had driven into the tunnel! I was laughing to myself walking all the way up to Market St., where I caught the "el" to continue my trip into center city.
Chuck Greene
SEPTA got so tired of idiots trying to follow the tracks and into the subway at the portals that they added tire puncture devices to flaten the tires and tank traps to keep cars out.
Usually it works, and all SEPTA has to do use a streetcar to pull the auto out.
Occaisonally some determined persons will, inspite of all the devices, keep going. One lady actually got as far as the University station before she was finally stopped. 3 LRV's were used, all coupled together, to pull the now seriously damaged auto back to the Woodland Portal.
For some strange reason, the Woodland portal gets 90% of the "drive-ins". The 38th St. portal (10 line) gets very few. Once in a while one goes in, usually with a drunk at the wheel.
Best explanation as to why somebody did it: "I'm from New Jersey, and I was following a bus and it went into a tunnel" (This was in Pre-LRV days).
"I'm from New Jersey, and I was following a bus and it went into a tunnel" (This was in Pre-LRV days).
I *love* the way you put that. I'm hoping one of these days to get down your way and have a ride on some of your one-eyed buses with the ladder on top. :)
It's a true story and I heard it first hand.
BTW, if you ever get south of the M-D line, let me know. You get the grand tour of BSM Baltimore Streetcar Museum and some handle time on streetcars built in the 19th Century.
I've seen pictures of it in other places. That's why your choice of words was hysterical. Some of our friends to the north of upstate New York *still* believe in trolleys, and every now and then someone "follows a bus" up there too. :)
I would consider it an honor and a privilege, power to be used and not abused. And every now and then I do indeed get down your way, although not as often as I used to when I worked for the state.
At approximately 10:15am a person was hit by a Northbound MBTA Trai @ Jackson Sq Orange Line RTL. The person was taken from the scene in Traumatic arrest to the Boston City Hospital. Service was bussed around the incident till approx 10:45am. Service was resumed after the platform was cleaned and MBTA police recon & photo teams were done w/ their investigation. The train crew was taken to the hospital for post accident drug tests and will be on paid leave until the results come back. Discuss if you want
Paid leave is nice, but of course that doesn't come any where close to making up for the trauma the crew went through in hitting the person. I hope the crew is ok.
Take Pride,
Brian
Amen to that.
If the pedestrian survives, maybe we'll know whether tht wa a suicide attempt or an accident due to inebriation, or due to an adverse medical event, or other possibility.
My theory is working.
- Charles Darwin
"Discuss if you want"
What's to discuss? This sort of thing happens every day, on all types of railroads, in every corner of the globe. It's like discussing when somebody gets hit by an automobile.
BTW, on NJ Transit, if a "trespasser" is hit by a train, there are no "post accident drug tests", because it is not considered an "accident" when somebody stands or sits or walks or drives in front of a moving train. Why should the train crew be held liable for the actions of a moron or a psychotic idiot?
<<<<...., on NJ Transit, if a "trespasser" is hit by a train, there are no "post accident drug tests"....
Are you *SURE* of that?
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd be very surprised if there weren't, primarily to demonstrate that the "operator" (oh how I hate that word) was fully in control of their own faculties and ABLE to do their best to stop the train. I imagine NJT is FRA, and if so the feds are kinda twitchy about that. (if only we could make our POLITICOS take drug tests, would explain a lot)
Well, considering that 5301 Fishbowl is an NJT conductor, I'd take him at his word on that one :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have read on Hot Times that even after moron bouncing incidents the crew has to go in for a Whiz Quiz. If you think about it, its probably the easiest way to conduct "random" drug tests.
After hearing about a couple of "trespasser fatalaties", I asked some trainmen with time (high seniority) if anyone in the crew gets drug tested after one of those, and they responded that crews are only tested after an "accident" like hitting another train or going through a switch. In those cases, there is "human error" involved on the part of a crew member. There is no crew member "human error" when someone tries to commit suicide (accidentally or intentionally) in front of a train.
Unless what those "high seniority" guys told me was incorrect...
Might not be, but if that's practice, the railroad's lawyers won't be terribly happy nor would the FRA in all likelihood. "Greasings" are pretty serious generally and if the victim's family sues the railroad or operator, the drug test closes a potential avenue of culpability. Absent one, the attorneys can claim potential impairment or lax enforcement by the railroad, resulting in a "favorable judgement" (and not for the railroad) ...
Then again, like vehicular incidents, I guess it all depends on how the police report is written up ... but I'd STILL be surprised to hear that there's no community whiz involved for everyone ON the train with a uniform.
Unfortunatly the MBTA Rule and Regs Jan 1, 2003 for all employees of the Rapid Transit lines. State "Any employee involved in any incident or accident shall be subject to any and all drug and alchol screening." The employee under investigation shall not return to service untill the results of the screening and investigation is complete. The employee during that time will be compenstated for time off.
I noticed a parking garage just past Queensboro Plaza (N/7). Has anyone ever tried taking photos from the top deck? You could get great shots of the station and the N & 7 trains going by. I wonder if I would get any trouble from the management if I went up there to take photos.
Take Pride,
Brian
That's the Municipal Parking garage, I work across the street from there on the north side. You should ask management permission first as I have no control over the garage, but it's a GREAT place for some railfanning shots.
I work right across the street/elevated from the Muni lot and yes it is a good spot to take pictures, the problem is the sun is all wrong. Worse in the summer though. Matter of fact the guy who makes the annual subway calendar wanted to use the roof of my building to shoot Queensboro plaza but I couldn't get any of the required permisions or permits.
Thanks to everyone who responded. I might try going over there tomorrow. If it is cloudy tomorrow like it was today then the sun shouldn't be a problem.
Take Pride,
Brian
Of course you can get great shots from there. In fact, NYCSubway makes references to try and get some from there.
You might encounter some resistance, especially in these yellow alert days. I shot some video from there a few years ago and was actually escorted down and out of the facility, and was advised to get a permit from the city in order to take video. Of course, the manager couldn't tell me what kind of permit and who to talk to.
I never pursued it further.
--Mark
I went today and except for the weather, it was very successful! A security guard came around on a golf cart and didn't stop. He came back 10 minutes later and chatted with me! I didn't catch all of what he said, but I think we was saying that a lot of people come up there to take photos of the subways. As far as the weather, it was mostly cloudy, with only short 30 seconds bursts of sunlight. As a result, I couldn't use as high a shutter speed as I would have liked. But I'm going to look at my photos now and I think a lot of them will come out alright. BTW, at QB Plaza, I took the most photos I've ever taken at once in the same day, over 150!
Take Pride,
Brian
From a speed of operations standpoint, are on-rail trolleys in mixed traffic any faster than trolley busses in mixed traffic?
Other than passenger capacity, are there inherent benefits to on-rail trolleys over trolley busses assuming the same operating environment?
>>Other than passenger capacity,<<
are you excluding MU operation of trolleys/lrvs? This can be a 100% savings in operator wages.
"are you excluding MU operation of trolleys/lrvs? This can be a 100% savings in operator wages."
Not necessarily. Boston, for example, has a motorman in each car, to make sure no one gets on w/o paying the fare.
The solution is to create an 2-car articulated unit like the buses, where everyone gets on in the front and can walk through to the 2d car.
Or you can just use fare inspectors like San Diego, Portland, and St. Louis do.
Mark
AND the H*LR.
Peace,
ANDEE
*=Bergen, which it does not go to.....yet
> The solution is to create an 2-car articulated unit like the buses, where everyone gets on in the front and can walk through to the 2d car.
It's not a solution. ONE tramcar may take MORE passengers than double bus or trolleybus. But there may be more than one tramcar... (I saw a photo of a German 5-car tram!)
They have that in Toronto.
Fixed rail street railways (trolley cars or streetcars) lose out to rubber tired vehicles (diesel or trolley busses) on speed of operations due to lack of maneuverability.
-- Ed Sachs
Benefits of trams (streetcars):
- Consuming less power than trolleybuses
- Higher passenger capacity
Speed depends on the type of rolling stock. It maybe up to 120-130 km/h, but not every tramcar can go with such speed.
In Moscow:
old T3 tramcars -- 80 km/h max.
newer KTM tramcars -- 100 km/h max.
Trolleybuses -- I don't know, but I never see a trolleybus going faster than 60 km/h.
Having the speed available is great, but in mixed traffic it's not really usable. Think Manhattan crosstown lines back in the '30s... they designed the streetcars with a "creeper" feature because most of the time that's all they could do, although TARS 629 will do at least 35 km/h in series and who knows how fast in parallel - probably the same as Moscow's T3 cars. But the difference in traffic density in the two cities is significant. In its native environment, the 59th Street Crosstown line, 629 probably never saw parallel operation.
A number of years ago I was railfanning in Philadelphia and came upon an automobile accident that blocked the trolley tracks. The accident was a minor one, just hard enough to disable one of the vehicles involved; there were eight streetcars backed up behind it. A trolleybus would have been able to swing out and pass with no difficulty. The same situation holds true with double-parked delivery trucks - a common occurrence in major cities. In today's environment, a trolleybus is generally a better answer where extensive operation in mixed traffic is a requirement. The best answer, of course, is separated ROW (median, for example), where a streetcar can take advantage of its greater acceleration capabilities, higher speeds, and greater passenger capacity - Toronto's Harbourfront line, for one example. But such ROWs are hard to obtain.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Philadelphia's trolleys do have the advantage of a dedicated right-of-way in the underground sections of their routes. That doesn't do much good out in West Philly where they run on streets, but in Center City where traffic is worst, they're conveniently beneath it and out of the way.
Mark
> Having the speed available is great, but in mixed traffic it's not really usable. Think Manhattan crosstown lines back in the '30s... they designed the streetcars with a "creeper" feature because most of the time that's all they could do, although TARS 629 will do at least 35 km/h in series and who knows how fast in parallel - probably the same as Moscow's T3 cars.
:-)))
Moscow T3 cars are made at 1970s - early 1980s. I think they are NOT the same as NYC 30s cars...
In Minsk trams always go at 60-70 km/h in mixed traffic. But Minsk is a new-built city with wide streets and no traffic jams.
> A number of years ago I was railfanning in Philadelphia and came upon an automobile accident that blocked the trolley tracks. The accident was a minor one, just hard enough to disable one of the vehicles involved; there were eight streetcars backed up behind it.
Yes :-( It's the main problem for trams in mixed traffic.
> A trolleybus would have been able to swing out and pass with no difficulty. The same situation holds true with double-parked delivery trucks - a common occurrence in major cities.
Not always! In Moscow I often see trolleybuses cannot swing out a wrong-parked car because power collectors are not long enough.
But IMHO accidents and wrong parking must be the problem for road police, not for trams and trolleybuses.
Moscow T3 cars are made at 1970s - early 1980s. I think they are NOT the same as NYC 30s cars...
Didn't mean to imply that the cars were the same, just the same maximum speed. Sorry for the confusion.
As for trolleybuses being able to swing out around parked vehicles, my only experience with that, at least in recent memory, is again Philadelphia, where I've never observed any problems. Guess their collectors are long enough.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> As for trolleybuses being able to swing out around parked vehicles, my only experience with that, at least in recent memory, is again Philadelphia, where I've never observed any problems. Guess their collectors are long enough. <<<
Modern trolley buses have sufficient batteries on board that they do not have to worry about their pole lengths. If necessary they can tie down the poles and go around an obstruction, even if it means going around a block or two before returning to the wire.
Tom
Modern trolley buses have sufficient batteries on board that they do not have to worry about their pole lengths. If necessary they can tie down the poles and go around an obstruction, even if it means going around a block or two before returning to the wire.
Makes sense.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If TARS 629 at Branford is anything like TARS 631 at Seashore, it will do about 35 mph in parallel on level, tangent track.
I'll concur with Todd about the balancing speed of the TARS cars.
Being a Qualified Operator at both Museums, have had the fun of
cranking the handle on both. [The truth be told, I may be one of
the first operators from Seashore's pool of motormen serving the
public, to operate 631 in a non-revenue venue. I operated it for
a trolley parade in 1994, while it was still being restored].
Also in a light move several years later returning Southbound from
Talbott Park, had to back 631 down, as she was swaying after I wound
her up. Remember these are "Streetcars" with wheel profiles built
for in street girder rail, not "T" rail, that most "Museums" use for
operating trackage.
It's BERA operational policy to restrict most services cars to "Series Only".
[Yes we have controller cowboys, that would mis-behave. >G<].
BTW, when 629 was used as a Training Vehicle for the supervisors
of the then being built HBLR, the blocks were removed and she was
allowed to do her thing.
;-) Sparky
Hey, welcome HOME, buddy! Speaking of full parallel, I have to admit, I was speeding in 1689. Got her up to Central Park West or Queens speed much to the thrill of the unsuspecting, and to the near-full-willies of my "motor instructor" ... but Branford's a DAMNED good compromise with its thin rail between streetcar and subway trackage.
Maybe it's a good thing you DIDN'T ride with me while you were down on the ground waving your arms real hard. :)
Thanks Kevin,
Glad to see you have time to find the keys other than a plowing
or whatever. We were cabin locked for most of the two weeks.
But, as you stated City Folk would go balistic for what we take
as normal [well almost, this year was extreme for our area.
Lake effect as Bison City]. But about 0800 on the 4th, went out
to start moving the newest 9 inches and just stood in awe with
the peaceful serenity. To me it was incredible, the silence I
mean. Gotta love that country life and seasonal weather, no
Florida or Arizona for me.
Well at Branford, the RT equipment is not speed restricted, so
you can get it up to speed. Our resident redboid is a good example
when handle by a certain motorman, who stonewalls you at Short Beach.
Also once on 1689, with Eddie S, its sponsor had her up to speed
inbound, back polling.
BTW, did you receive the item, I snail mailed you.
And are we ready of an encore of "A Gathering of SubTalkers" on
Sunday, March 30 at Branford, with 1227/G being the featured duet,
weather permitting.
;-) Sparky
Yes indeed, I did receive the sacred latter-day books of the dead, and am amused at how unfettered the museum is in its rules compared to certain anal transit organizations who charge per ride. A few twists and turns for obviously good reasons unique to the museum, but everything else is ... well ... rote. To any railroader. I actually admire the common sense of it all in all sincerity!
Yeah, this winter is completely OUTTA there ... and you guys got it DAMNED easy down below ... lemme put it to you this way, boobe ... the snow is STILL nipple-deep here ... and you know how tall I am. I can't get over this! If I even *imagined* that winter up here could be like this, I'd be living in Taos right about now. Heh. But then again, I remember a winter back in the 50's that was almost like this, and I was HALF as tall. But this one's INSANE ... 71 inches out there for krissakes ... could you guys send in some TRUCKS?!?!?! FREE SHIPPING as long as you pay for da truck. :)
And yeah, Eddie chose WISELY ... c'mon ... I know YOUR pants get tight too, just thinking of 1689. Heh.
Winters like that are an excuse for the trains to be messed up. Yesterday 2" of snow fell on London and - you guessed it - all the trains out of Waterloo started running 25 minutes late.
Years ago, the LIRR would lay down with the first dusting. After an inch accumulated, they had to get out the buses. With 71 inches (and yes, it's snowing AGAIN today) we gotta chuckle about "MTA Plan 9 from Outta Sky" although there's good reasons for it, when there's a couple of inches of snow coming.
Always loved when it snowed when I lived in the city for the couple of hours that it covered up everything grungy. Up here, it tends to look nice for a much longer amount of time. Until the roof caves in. :)
***"Up here, it tends to look nice for a much longer amount of time."***
I'll concur on that one, I like clean white snow in the country.
***"Until the roof caves in. :)"***
It cost us last Sunday to have the roof at the get-a-way abode shoveled.
But I'm not "Penny Wise and Pound Foolish" or forty years young to handle 24 inches of snow.
;-) Sparky
I was in Rhode Island, Kingston, the U. of R.I. campus. Snow piled up at my b&b, beautiful, the campus is a mile from the Amtrak station, seven trains a day from NYC. So guess how many campus shuttles go to the station? Right. None. So the snow on campus is a slushy mess and the students drive from class to class and Amtrak has no business. GAAAAAH.
Mike,
We have to transfer some dollar vans to the U of RI? >G<
;-) Sparky
Heh. Or some of those little rinkydinks that NYU runs, that get stuck in traffic in Greenwich Village. Why do people think that if it LOOKS like the Toonerville Trolley, shuttle commuters will just jump right on?
Sucked me right IN with that title. Heh. Another 2 inches last night (74 inches up here now) and more on the way tonight. It's getting to the point where I'm considering building a flame thrower to clear the roof. Anything "catches" the melting snow will put it right out. :)
Strange lessons on the properties of trees though with glare ice and beaucoup snow on them - pine trees snap and land on roof, birch and maples just bend in a delicate curve. Even stranger is a bunch of tree tops buried in, and being held in place BY the snow ... looks like hundreds of copies of the St Louis Arch around here. Maybe I should paint the trees TA yellow and sell bambiburgers. (grin)
Meant to add, "hunting of the wheels" is the sign of a HAPPY train on the rails, so happy they dance. So long as there ain't a curve ahead. :)
Sorry ... you made me feel a bit guilty with that post of yours. I *know* the Arnines, know what their envelope is, and where they get UNhappy ... Branford's rails were in WONDERFUL shape for the weather, and 1689 was one happy camper. She HUMMED. But having read what you were saying there, I was feeling sorta like I'd have had my peepee whipped if you only knew what I'd been doing down the rails. Heh.
Series? Yow. I just couldn't operate there - knowing what it did to the bars underneath the chassis. Switching, series, parallel, coast - OK, but stuck in series? That's sacrilege ... JUST not done. Working that handle is what we got paid for. Eeek.
BTW, when 629 was used as a Training Vehicle for the supervisors
of the then being built HBLR, the blocks were removed and she was
allowed to do her thing.
When was that? I wasn't aware.
And does that mean I'm (nominally) qualified - equipment-wise - on the HBLR/NCS cars?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
***"When was that? I wasn't aware."***
It was in the spring of 1999 and we get honorable mention in the
recently released book "Hudson-Bergen Light Rail" from "Railpace"
magazine. A well written documentation of how to build and operate
a Light Rail system, including street running in a historic district.
A manual that should be read by all, particularly those in cities
contemplating rail transit. It tells you how they bypassed the
scum sucking red tape, that most ventures acquire. Available on
the web from the Railpace Store. WWW.railpace.com/store $24.99 [PPD].
***"And does that mean I'm (nominally) qualified - equipment-wise - on the HBLR/NCS cars?"***
I do not think so, as after reading the book, I ask if with my
background of 18 years experience at two trolley museums, would
I QUALIFY TO OPERATE at HBLR/NCS?
;-) Sparky
Didn't mean it quite that way... more like "if that equipment showed up at Branford would I know how to run it".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's one of thise single handle cabs ... twist & go.
***"if that equipment showed up at Branford would I know how to run it".***
NO, not with your current qualifications.
;-) Sparky
The New Orleans car at Warehouse Point appears to have the same Controller.
The New Orleans Car at the Point has a K-35 Controllers?
According to the roster of Preserved North American Streetcars,
compiled by Frank Hicks [IRM] & Jeff Hakner [BERA], no controller
type is listed for 836 at Connecticut Trolley Museum or 832 at
Pennsylvania Trolley Museum. But having ridden and video taped
aboard 832 in PA, the controllers are not K-35s. Look like the
controllers on Seashores 966, which I have operated on numerous
occasions. The roster shows a K-68A-LB for 966. I found one
dissimilarity in the look alike controllers. On 966 the number 1
end has 7 points [4 series & 3 parallel] and the number 2 end has
8 points [4 series & 4 parallel]. Also it has no heaters.
Branfords 850 is listed with K-68A controllers. Well hopefully
later this year, when released for operations we will see how
many points each controller has. It will not be blocked in series,
as it is a two motor car. Also we will see if it has heaters?
;-) Sparky
***"The New Orleans Car at the Point has a K-35 Controllers?"***
Pardon the grammar, should read:
The New Orleans Car at the Point has K-35 Controllers?
;-) Sparky
***"The New Orleans Car at the Point has K-35 Controllers?"***
During lunch I viewed my video from Pennsylvania Trolley Museum
visit of 25 August, 1998. I stand ammended, car 832 does have
K-35 controllers. So I will say 836 at Connecticut Trolley Museum
is equipped with K-35s.
Returned to the Preserved Electric Streetcar Roster for any other
notable distinctions in the 800 cars. Noted that 836 & 850
were built in 1923 and 832 in 1924. Also 850 has a different compressor,
then 832, 836 & 966. The 800s have Westinghouse Motors, while 966 has GEs.
;-) Sparky
Pardon me, but what does 629 have ?
Thurston,
Branfords 629 and National Capitals 678 have K-35 controllers.
Seashores 631 has K-35LB Controllers. Any further technical
questions as to the difference of these controllers, ask the
Professor at Branford, Jeff H.
Also the Eastern Mass/Third Avenue/Toronto sweepers all have K-35
controllers. Branford's 830 & 884 [Third Avenue Cars] have K-27
controllers.
;-) Sparky
The type of controller has just about 0 to do with balancing speed.
K68 is a modernized lightweight version of the K35. NOPSI
may have switched controllers around as they had both in stock.
K35 and K68 controllers work for 2 or 4 motor cars.
The DH-16 compressor that is under 850 now is wrong for the
restoration period and is in the process of being replaced with
a GE CP-27 pump.
New Orleans cars don't have heaters for the passengers. 850 had
a foot warmer for the motorman added to it which we removed as it post-dates the restoration period.
I read somewhere that the New Orleans cars still operating with NORTA have K-36JR controllers, whatever the heck those are. I don't remember where I read this, so I can't even fathom a guess as to the reliability of the source. Help?
Frank Hicks
I made a slight error in the previous posting. A K36 is a
2-motor version of a K35. It also differs in having 4 & 4
points, whereas a K35 typically has 5&3. A K68 is a modernized
lighter-weight version of the K36. It has 4 & 3 points.
The "JR" suffix refers to the additional contact needed for
a line switch. NOPSI had 4-motor cars and would have used K35
controllers on them, but the 800s and 900s should have all had
K36 or K68.
That slow, eh? I figured it was more. But 60 km/h was more than adequate for the 59th Street Crosstown anyway :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Photos of Moscow trams
T3:
http://tram.rusign.com/07/14727.jpg
KTM:
http://tram.rusign.com/10/06110.jpg
Streetcars do have a marketing advantage in that people who won't ride buses will ride streetcars for some reason. Part of it may be psychological, but I think that the ride is a lot smoother and a lot more comfortable on a streetcar than on a rubber-tired bus.
Mark
Its a case of perceived stability. It's only going one place!.
Too many SUV drivers have that syndrome.
In a recent news program, a snow storm shad a pile-up. It was made of SUVs, pickup trucks and jeeps.
PERCEIVED STABILITY.
avid
Yeah.... well that stands to reason.
All of the Yugos were parked in their garages.
: ) One Hopes~ Elias
>>All of the Yugos were parked in their garages.
Or sitting on blocks in the front yard. : )
Mark
Hey! Don't knock fine Ugoslav technology. At least they had a rear window heater to keep your hands from freezing while pushing them upstate. :)
What sort of rail transit was there in the former Yugoslavia before the wars? Maybe the Yugo was a plot to promote transit ridership.
: )
Mark
Ooch! Won't go there ... but we ARE two wild and crazy guys from Bratislava ...
Speaking of which, any word on how the Bratislava Metro is coming? It's mentioned briefly on this Metroplanet page, but the blurb is a bit out of date.
Mark
Dang if I know, but I'll place CASH MONEY that it'll be done before the 2nd Avenue subway. :)
Bratislava is in SLOVAKIA.
And is also known as Preßburg.
Yes it is. My great-grandparents emigrated to the United States from a small village about ten miles from Bratislava, called Lozorno. They moved to Chicago in about 1910. Maybe it was because Chicago already had the L and they didn't want to wait a hundred years for the Bratislava metro to open.
Mark
That means your great-grandparents were from Austria-Hungary.
My grandfather was born in Austria-Hungary
My grandmother in Poland
My mother in the USSR
They were all born in the same city in the Ukraine.
My great-grandparents were from Austria-Hungary.
Their nieces and nephews who stayed behind lived in Czechoslovakia. My distant cousins who still live there live in Slovakia.
Where will their children live? Who knows?
By the way, what city in Ukraine? My mothers grandparents lived near Odessa. Ever visit? Ever get to sample the Kiev Metro?
Mark
It was L'vov. I've never been to Europe (except for a stopover in Brussels that I don't count), I've been to Asia though.
Sounds like Lemberg (Lvov) to me. Am I right?
Yeah, I posted that in another post, didn't see yours yet.
All I know about Yugoslav railways is that if you're trying to get from Athens (or Athčnes as they insist you type it in, or they'll give you the times to Athensleben, Löderburg, Germany) to Paris, you have two options:
1) 4 trains, changing at Belgrade, Vienna and Frankfurt-am-Main
2) train to Patras, ferry to Brindisi, train to Paris
The latter seems much safer to me :-)
The best streetcar systems operate on mostly private-right-of -ways.A case in point is the Pittsburgh LRV's , specifically the
42S line to South Hills Village. That is the smoothest ride I ever had on any system! It goes to show what a complete rebuild will do, and this line in Pittsburgh really proves the point.
Chuck Greene
Right,
New Orleans has Canal St. Most of which is on a seperate median.
Back in the day, when interurbans ran, the interurbans had a combonation of street and private ROW.
The Lackawanna & Wyoming Valley was mostly a Private ROW. It went over the street in Wilks-berra if I'm not mistaken.
Pacific Electric had similar mixes of street and ROW, as did almost all interurbans.
Lets remember, there were very few autos then, but a lot of horse drawn vehicles.
avid
"Other than passenger capacity, are there inherent benefits to on-rail trolleys over trolley busses assuming the same operating environment?"
There are some maintenance savings. More so for a diesel vs. elect. trolley.
Dayton had a trolley bus, a very nice quiet one, and has been giving it up for (I believe) diesel electric. I presume due to overhead maintenance. Given that the popular on-street rail seems to be places like Toronto that know how to handle it, it sure seems like it's only going to be H-B, San Jose, aboveground SF Muni, etc., with dedicated ROW, that make it work.
Dayton also has a very nice subway :-)
Dayton also has a very nice subway :-)
Hahahahahahahaha! That ALMOST made having wasted a good part of my life in the Miami Valley worth it! Thanks! I think I'll change my handle to Transvestite Pie Fetishist.
Why the hell does this take priority over 2 Avenue?
It seem that this project is more important than the long defunct 2nd Ave line. Probably MTA wants to expedite a project that benefits 100,000 commuters, most of whom have household incomes of $150,000 and up, while the 2nd Ave subway is still in limbo, but would benefit nearly 1 million daily customers, it effects felt on the Lexington Ave line in a positive way. Aside the fact that East side residents will not have to endure the M15 snail to downtown, Bronx customers may have some breathing room at 125th Street. Again 100,000 rich suburban customers, vs. 1 million city dwellers, you do the math.
Where do I pick up the M4 bus after getting off at 190th on the A? How long a ride is it from the El station to the Cloisters? TIA.
It's right outside the upper level subway station. Take the elevators, not the long corridor, up to the street. The stop is right there. Can't miss it. Takes 5 min. to the Cloisters.
Guess which Clint Eastwood movie was filmed in The Cloisters?
Sorry, no hints, this is an easy question to answer.
Coogan's Bluff
When leaving the Cloisters, the nearest subway station is Dyckman Street on the A. It's a short jaunt down the hill.
That's no short jaunt downhill to Dyckman. You have to follow some very narrow, winding paths in varying degree of repair down some very steep hills and, due to those hills, numerous switchbacks. It's much easier to catch an M4 in front of the museum for a quick ride back to 190th- or if it's a nice day, a pleasant ten-minute walk on any of several fairly level walkways, some of which offer spectacular views.
Of course, if you're in the mood for a hike, the walk through Fort Tryon Park down to Dyckman is a delight for the nature lover, outdoorsman or geologist. Another advantage Dyckman has to 190th is that there are many places to grab a bite. If you go downtown from the museum, the first commercial area along Fort Wash Avenue is a small one at 187th or a much bigger one at 181st.
Don't spread it around, but the Cloisters have restrooms outside of the paid admission zone. The M4 drivers use them all the time between runs. It is a bit of walk through several staircases to reach them.
My fascination with Manhattan Island above 181st Street never ends, what with the huge elevation changes (requiring unusual split-level subway entrances and access tunnels at several stations) and two large, rather rustic parks.
Is there a restaurant/snack bar in or near the Cloisters?
Yes, there's a place whose name I forget just 2-3 minutes walk south on the main entrance roadway, still within the confines of the park. It's basically a cafe/sandwich shop.
There may be some places to eat on the other side of 190th st, by Broadway, near the long tunnel to the 1/9 line station. There is no place to eat inside the castle, so your best bet is to grab a bite before you come. Best places to eat are at 181st Street and at 207th Street, near the A train.
To get to 191th Street on the 1/9 via. the long tunnel, you would go back to the station entrance where you got out the elevator downstairs. Take the elevator to the mezzanine, then walk the passageway outside (190th st/Bennett Ave). Go right, then left on the next block to Broadway. There are stores on Broadway and the tunnel entrance is across Broadway on the north side of the street.
There is a small cluster of stores on Broadway around 190th-191st. Whatever eateries are there tend to serve Latin cuisine, reflecting the neighborhood. If that's not what you desire, and you're willing to take the hike down to Dyckman and Broadway, there's a McDonald's, a couple Greek-American coffee shops, and surely pizza and/or Chinese. At that juncture you have the A train; four blocks east on Dyckman is the 1.
It might be easier just to hop the M4 for the ten-minute ride to 181st, a major shopping strip with all kinds of eateries. I wouldn't want to walk the hills and stairs Fort Tryon while there's still snow and ice on the ground!
I'm guessing my best option would be to take the A to 181st, eat lunch, then take the M4 to the Cloisters. Where near 181st would I pick up the bus?
There is a bus stop on Fort Washington Ave right at the north-east corner of Fort Washington and 181st. Make sure you get a bus which goes all the way to the Cloisters -- some busses terminate their runs at 190th. If you do go only to 190th, you can walk through Fort Tryon Park to get to the Cloisters. It's a beautiful walk & only takes 5 minutes (or longer if you want to linger & enjoy the scenery).
As for places to eat: There is a greasy-spoon diner right on the corner of 181st and Fort Washington. Here's a picture:
Kitty-corner to that, there is a Starbux.
If you walk downhill towards Bway, there are a lot of places selling greasy pizza, pollo al carbon, etc. At the corner of 181st and Bway there is a Mickey D's.
It's a great place to go visit.
You're making me homesick...
That's why I'm going back for a visit, Ron...it's been too long for me!
There is a small cluster of stores on Broadway around 190th-191st. Whatever eateries are there tend to serve Latin cuisine, reflecting the neighborhood. If that's not what you desire, and you're willing to take the hike down to Dyckman and Broadway, there's a McDonald's, a couple Greek-American coffee shops, and surely pizza and/or Chinese. At that juncture you have the A train; four blocks east on Dyckman is the 1.
It might be easier just to hop the M4 for the ten-minute ride to 181st, a major shopping strip with all kinds of eateries. I wouldn't want to walk the hills and stairs of Fort Tryon Park while there's still snow and ice on the ground!
190th Street-Overlook Terrace on the IND "A" line in Manhattan, which was my former home station for almost 32 years, is really underground at this point. The bus stop is indeed right there on Fort Washington Avenue after you leave the upper level from the elevators that take you up there, and exit towards the sidewalk by climbing up the stairs.
If you do walk from the 190th Street station to the Cloisters, it is about a 5-to-10 minute leisurely stroll at best. If you take the M4 bus from station, make sure the destination sign front readout does say "The Cloisters".
-William A. Padron
(formerly from that upper section of Washington Heights).
When you get off at 190 St, catch the M4 right on Fort Washington Av and take the bus straight to the Cloisters. Its a 5 minute bus ride there.
But tell me, how *BIG* do you have to be to pick up a bus?
Don't they have lifts that will do that back at the shops?
: ) Elias
Some times it is faster to walk the 1/3 mile then wait for the bus
Hey, if we're talking imaginary lines, why not imaginary stations on that line?
How about renaming 74th Street on the #7 line to 76th Street? Or just unearth the 76th Street station on the A line we have been talking about here.
The 6 already has a stop at 77th Street. Add an entrance at the south end and rename the station 76th Street.
LOL
Oh boy, it must've been the two week point since the last thread that had 76th Street Station in it's title......
And I didn't bring it up!
Hell, even I got into the cubbyhole in time. :)
Just turn back the clock to 1955 or earlier. The 3rd Ave. EL had a station at 76th Street. In fact, its stops and stop patterns were somewhat different from the parallel Lexington IRT. Here's the sequence going south to north at the numbered streets in Manhattan:
9 EXP
14
23 EXP
34
42 EXP
47
53
59
67
76
84
89
99
106 EXP
116
125 EXP
129....then over the bridge to the Bronx
In terms of gaps in numbers of streets that's:
5 (9-14), 9 (14-23), 11 (23-34), 8 (34-42), 5 (42-47), 6 (47-53), 6 (53-59), 8 (59-67), 9 (67-76), 8 (76-84), 5 (84-89), 10 (89-99), 7 (100-106), 10 (106-116), 9 (116-125), 4 (125-129).
Some odd big gaps by small gaps there: 5 streets (84-89) followed by 10 streets (89-99) is the biggest difference, but it seems pretty random.
Why did they space the stops like that?
Ok it could start from the non-existent 2 Av line then run via Manhattan Bridge to the so called 76 St station then could run to the "mysterious" 212 St station on Hillside Av, pretty cool fantasy line :0).
anyway here she is oppisite of the other 2 in the same area
yes the wires overhead are live !!
The wire may be live, but the car looks raunchy. Is it parked on
OERM skid row trackage?
;-) Sparky
no, actually it is on track for restoration and one is operational
remember the OREM museum saved it in the first place ...
they would have been scrapped and forgotten long ago !
The car looks like a rusty, dingy skidrow there! It needs a paint job ASAP. It looks like the car was electrocuted by the live wires ;-). I wonder what the interior is like......
actually the interior is not in bad shape at all
it is like PE 418 on the outside only
( oh well ) ...!!
Very nice photo - but oops! The trolley boards are pulling out of the roof! The back ones are especially bad - those roof boards have a very noticeable bend in them. The front trolley boards are also visibly bent, and that little platform the base is sitting on appears to have collapsed. All fixable without too much trouble, but when you're storing cars for long periods of time it's always a good idea to loosen the trolley base springs to keep this from happening.
Frank Hicks
yea...
however she does look like a rebuild could be possible eh..??
lol ??.........!
Salaamallah,
Anything is possible with funding & dedication and lots of bondo.
Now the perplexing question in reference to SF MUNI PCCs 1033 & 1039,
who is the actual owner of these two cars? The North America
Preserved Cars Roster lists 1033 & 1039 as owned by SF MUNI and
stored inoperable as of 2002. Previously owned by OERM from 1983 & 1982.
The cars by your photos are physically stored in Perris,
California, yes. But are they accessioned as part of the OERM
Collection? I think not, somebody is pulling your trolley rope.
BTW, while on the subject of SF MUNI PCCs, does anyone have a current
status on the NJT PCC that went West?
;-) Sparky
'does anyone have a current
status on the NJT PCC that went West?'
..........i..... c..... but i do not know ..
the pcc cars i show in my 2 photos are the property of the OREM
railorad / transit car museum ( i am a family member ) .....
@ i dont know about the trolley rope pull...........lol !!
they have had these museum pieces waiting restoration for quite
some time along with the key cars and PE blimps ( red cars )...
a lot of progress has been made on a lot of thier rolling stock
and museum grounds for sure everytime i visit something is new ..
being a member you get the inside information here ...!
at the largest west coast railroad / rail transit museum ...!
( sorry east coasters ) .............he he he he he !
I'm probably wrong, but I *think* I read recently here that a Newark PCC was WRECKED in an accident out yonder ...
You read that a SF MUNI-former SEPTA-PCC painted in the PSCT grey/blue Newark paint scheme was wrecked. Not a "Newark PCC".
That was an ex-SEPTA car, now MUNI 1060, PAINTED in inaccurate Public Service colors, that derailed coming home late one night, both trucks off the tracks, finally stopped by a light pole and curb. Most damage is above the frame, some truck damage.
ex-NJT 14 is AOK.
The PCC that was wrecked was MUNI 1060, an ex-SEPTA car, but PAINTED in Newark, NJ colors.
The Brooklyn car, 1053, is also out of service, wrecked badly.
Steve,
Thanks for the chime in. I was aware that two of the ex SEPTA PCCs
were involved in wrecks. Ironic thought that the cars wrecked are representative
of the New York Area.
IIRC, NJT - Newark City Subway #14 was shipped to San Francisco and
operated in non-revenue service. I can not get a current location
for this car or whatever Newark Car that went West?
;-) Sparky
It's sitting at Geneva, I'd imagine.
It's been operated over the entire system.
A number of changes will have to be made, notably the reversal of the front doors. The current outward opening front doors won't clear the loading platforms, so they have to be made inward opening.
There's something I read on the Market St. Railway's site Market Street Railway on Line that has to do with a problem about purchase, rather than a lease, which NJT apparently wants. Check the site out, it's there.
Dan,
Thanks for the link, very interesting reading. Lots of it, have to
get away from this board, more often though. >G<
;-) Sparky
Actually, there have been FOUR of the ex-SEPTA cars in wrecks and three are still out of service.
The Baltimore and Kansas City cars somehow tangled with each other (rear-ender) but not sure which one hit which, but I understand one was damaged enough to remain out of service.
I haven't heard anything about Newark 14 except that it was supposedly tested by Muni, and Muni didn't want to keep it as they would have had topay for rehab, ADA compliance, and Newark wouldn't give them title to it, only loan it to them. Long complicated thing.
OK ... wasn't sure of the details, but recalled mention of "Newark PCC" in whatever it was I read. Damned shame nonetheless ...
BTW, while on the subject of SF MUNI PCCs, does anyone have a current status on the NJT PCC that went West?
Tested on the F line (see pictures in SF section of site). They'll require some ADA retrofitting, trolley poles reinstalled, some other maintenance, and SF would like to obtain more of the cars. However, NJT doesn't want to SELL the cars to MUNI, but lease them instead. MUNI doesn't want to spend the overhaul money on cars they don't own in case NJT wants them back some day; and they can't use federal funds to overhaul cars they don't own.
Frank listed them that way because he was under the impression
that the sale was finalized. Evidently that's not necessarily
the case.
"Frank listed them that way because he was under the impression
that the sale was finalized. Evidently that's not necessarily
the case."
I must plead guilty to being under the impression the cars belong to SF Muni. I had them listed as belonging to Muni midway through last year, but was notified that the deal had not gone through. So, I switched ownership to OERM pending closing of the deal. In October I was notified by an employee of SF Muni that the deal had just been closed and that the cars belonged to Muni, and that transportation was planned for early- to mid-2003, so I switched ownership to Muni. I'm open to suggestions, though - I only know what I'm told about this deal by those involved.
Frank Hicks
the wreck did naot happen at the OREM ...!!
right folks ??
the wreck did not happen at the OREM ...!!
or on the west coast either ...
right folks ??
(October 6, 2002)
Gee--
That's a VERY nice picture-thanks. :)
Very Nice picture.
Here I thought you were refering to the air Inside the train being cloudy, and looked in the T/O's window. Fortunately the clouds are water, far off, and this isn't a photo taken moments before union square part deux.
Nice picture, compared to a lot of the crap railfans turn out these days. Did you use film or a digital camera?
Thank you. I still get a lot of duds but I will say that my photography skills have improved tremendously since I started about two years ago, thanks largely to advice I've gotten here.
Fuji Press 800 in a Canon SureShot Z135, processed by Snapfish. (Why 800? It helps a lot underground and doesn't hurt much outside.) I'm hoping to move to digital soon simply because the film and processing is costing me a small fortune, the wait for the roll to be developed is infuriating, and I don't have the time to scan everything. (Last week I scanned 300+ shots covering September, October, and November.) If you saw the Subway Snow Day and Redbird Fantrip 2002 photos I posted last month, those were taken on a digital camera that I was evaluating for the week.
If nobody minds, I'll post an unsolicited photo from time to time.
Post all the photos you want. You won't get any complaints from me. You see the photos I put up from time and the kinds of reaction I get from people here. Its actually cool to see how imaginative someone can be when taking photos.
I know I have shown this one before but I like using this one:
One of my favorites!
Wow, what a pic Tony! Its just beautiful, especially the nighttime and the bright lights on the R143.
Keep them coming.
Not quite as artistic, but here's the same train a few minutes earlier:
If film ( I forgot ) What speed did you use?
A slant on the W, nice! May be they will return on the B when the Manhattan Bridge 6th Ave. access reopens in 2004?
A handful of slants and even R-32's usually creep onto the W on weekends. Here's an R-32 set at Coney Island on November 17:
And if you thought one R-40 set was surprising, how about two trains, side-by-side, both on the W, one week earlier?
(I have lots more where those came from -- just ask!)
Very nice photo, David. Good work.
Can this photo be added to subway.org's collection of R40 subway car photos?
Sorry, no, at least not yet.
For the 2001 photo contest, any photo in the collection on this site was disqualified. I don't know if Dave plans another contest for this year (he didn't have one last year) or if the rules will be similar, but that photo will certainly be one of my entries.
After the contest, I don't see why not. (I gave Dave a large batch of photos to post a while back, but either he's been busy or he didn't like them, since he's only gotten around to posting about five so far.)
lighting on the front car .....best time to fire off a shot !
Nice pic David, especially the R40 running on the W [It looks like the T/O looked at you]. See, the R40 on the W is not a fluke ;-).
This may be a question for Kevin Walsh.
I recently saw the film, "Gangs of New York," which takes place mostly in The Five Points. The film prompted these questions:
The intersection of which five streets make up The Five Points?
Is there any reference to the location as such on maps or on the streetscape nowadays?
What would I see (buildings, parks, etc.) if I went there now?
Is it still a "rough" neighborhood?
Is there still a "Paradise Square," and is it called that?
What does "Paradise Square" refer to?
Is there still a stone monument there as was seen in the movie?
http://r2.gsa.gov/fivept/fphome.htm
Danke! Merci! Gracias!
Q)The intersection of which five streets make up The Five Points?
A) Park, Worth, and Baxter.
Q) Is there any reference to the location as such on maps or on the streetscape nowadays?
A) Not really. 2 of the 5 points were demapped in the late 1800's
Q) What would I see (buildings, parks, etc.) if I went there now?
A) The neighborhood has changed alot since the 1800's.
Q) Is it still a "rough" neighborhood?
A) It is a residental area in modern-day Chinatown. The area is somewhat rough. The papers sometimes talk about the "Tongs" in Chinatown.
Q) Is there still a "Paradise Square," and is it called that?
A) There is a park in the area that I believe goes back to those days. I forget the name. I think it's something like Mott St Park.
Q)What does "Paradise Square" refer to?
A) That goes back to the days when the area was devolped. Possibly it was named "Paradise" because for the hard working people that lived there it was a place where one could relax after working all week. Hence the name "Paradise".
Q)Is there still a stone monument there as was seen in the movie?
A) If there is such a stone, I think it would be near the building at the north end of the current park. Then again. NYC doesn't want to be reminded of what the neighborhood once was.
Park, Worth, and Baxter
Being a New York history buff, I did some research after seeing the "Gangs Of New York" film. I have seen many references to "Five Points", "The Old Brewery", and "Paradise Park" in other books, but none of these sources showed the exact orientation of the streets. Finally, after days of digging through websites with old maps, I discovered the following:
1. "Paradise Park" once stood where the northeast corner of the New York County Courthouse is now located. Most of Park Street was eliminated when this courthouse and the Federal Courthouse were built. There is still a small section of Park Street adjacent to the Federal Building.
2. Columbus Park is the park bounded by Baxter, Mulberry, Bayard, and Worth Street. It was built in 1896, when the entire square block, known as "Mulberry Bend", was demolished. It was considered one of the most dangerous blocks in the city, so it was eliminated in a fashion that would have made Robert Moses proud.
3. Park Street once extended through a section of Columbus Park. On the Mulberry Street side, there is a small street known as Mosco Street that runs perpendicular to Mulberry. Mosco was once part of Park Street.
4. The Old Brewery, which was replaced by the Five Points Mission, was on the eastern side of Park Steet, just south of the Five Points intersection. The County Courthouse now occupies that site.
5. Worth Street was known back then as Anthony Street; Baxter was known as Orange; and Park was known as Cross.
6. The northern part of Foley Square was once the site of the Collect Pond; the pond drained northward to a river, which then became a canal, now known as Canal Street. The "Little Collect Pond" also drained from its larger counterpart, and was located where the Federal Courthouse now stands. At once time, these bodies of water provided a major source of drinking water for lower Manhattan. Tanneries built in the late 18th century polluted the water, and by the early 19th Century, the ponds were filled in. Buildings constructed atop this landfill crumbled, and the area became a slum. The first "Tombs" prison was built on the site of the larger Collect pond.
7. An alms house was torn down to build the Tweed Courthouse (how ironic). A cemetary sat where the Hall of Records now stands.
8. I'm not sure about this---I could be mistaken--but I think the church that is being built in the "Gangs Of New York" film is the church that sits across from the Municipal Building, on Duane Street. This would have been two blocks away from Five Points, at Duane and Park Street.
There is still a small section of Park Street adjacent to the Federal Building.
It's in front of the old US Courthouse, and it's part of Centre Street now, as Centre Street has been moved.
"as Centre Street has been moved."
When did that happen?
Did the J/M/Z lines move with it?
Between Duane and Worth Street, Centre Street now arcs eastward to Pearl, and then returns at Worth. This makes Thomas Paine Park a single unit.
A) Not really. 2 of the 5 points were demapped in the late 1800's
Wrong. The New York County Courthouse blocking them was built in the 1920s.
Before then, Baxter Street was extended to Chatham Square, so it became the six points. The name didn't change.
Five Points, then, seems to be sorta Foley Square and Chatham Square.
Perhaps we should petition to have the BB/Chambers St stations renamed 'Five Points'. It does revive a nice historical name.
It's like calling the subway portion of Brooklyn portion of the L the Eastern District line.
The other answers are slightly wrong. Park Street no longer exists. The block of Park that intersected at Baxter and Worth has been filled in by an extended Columbus Park.
You know, I just couldn't take that movie seriously. Not after noticing that all the gangs had some disturbing similarities to those portraied in "The Warriors". I mean the Riffs could kick the ass of the Dead Ribbits any day.
I was riding the F train this afternoon around 5pm from 7 Av looking out the window and when we departed from Church Av I saw the R68A btw Church & Ditmas that's been showing up there for the past couple of months. There were people in it, had W destinations but the funny thing is that in the front all jokes aside it had a 6 train bullet! I only caught the first 4 #'s though, 5048-5047-5045-5046. Did anyone else spot this?
It wasn't a train that hit her
And it wasn't at a grade crossing
but she was running low on gasoline
and wanted to turn back to Richardton.
She was driving on the interstate,
slowly in the right hand lane,
when she saw the crossover.
You know the one: "Authorized Vehicles Only"
She wanted to tune around,
but didn't look in her rear-view mirror
but she'd not have seen it anyway
for the tractor-trailer carring logs was in her blind spot,
just about to pass her.
She and a 3 year old granddaughter survived
due to the deployment of the air bags.
But the mother and a 5 month old son were thrown
about one hundred feet along the road.
Whe our ambulance arrived at the scene
we drove up to the wrecked car,
but the police directed us along the ditch
until we found the victims about 100' away
As soon as I opened the door,
somebody handed me the baby,
and instantly I knew...
The mother was still in the ditch,
her head was torn open
but the skull was still intact
she had lacerations and road rash
up one side and down the other.
Yet, she was still alive.
I called for the back-up ambulance
A paramedic from the big city (15,000 people, you know)
But they were a good 30 miles away.
We turned our lights on
and we turned our wheels to the west.
The mother will need neuro-surgery
if she survives that long.
As for her son,
well, the corornor did not even take his jacket off.
You do not need a grade crossing,
or a locomotive or a train:
just a moments inattention while driving
will change your world around.
Make driving your full time occupation
if driving is what you are doing.
Drive safely and with care
with all of your passengers buckled in.
I'll come out if you loose it,
but I make no gaurantees that you will win.
Elias
You do not need a grade crossing,
or a locomotive or a train:
just a moments inattention while driving
will change your world around.
Make driving your full time occupation
if driving is what you are doing.
Drive safely and with care
with all of your passengers buckled in.
This is exactly what they stress at my Driver's Ed class which I have right now this year. We are studying from the NJ Driver's Manual (a little green book) and it covers all aspects of driving.
This is important since students with a learner's permit and a provisional license are scrutinized by the state (NJ), more heavily than regular license holders.
It seems the #1 enemy of trains are log trucks, which I see was involved in this scenario. I recall the last two incidents at grade crossings where a train (a big heavy freight one) derailed because it hit a log truck, and either the engineer died or was severely injured because of the impact when it derailed, the log truck would stop but the driver of the truck would end up with no injuries. Sometimes ironic that an 18-wheeler was hit by a train and was damaged but a log truck is almost invincible.
Is this story true? If so, my utmost condolences lie to all those involved.
Important Information About Amtrak Passsenger Security Measures
Effective immediately, Amtrak is implementing several new security measures for the benefit of our guests. Consequently, guests will be required to produce valid photo identification when purchasing tickets or checking baggage. All guests, 18 years or older, should be sure to carry a driver's license, passport or other photo identification when making a purchase.
Valid ("in-force" or "current") photo identification includes the following:
State-issued photo driver's license
State-issued photo ID for non-drivers, or if ID does not carry a photo, it must identify the presenter by physical characteristics
Passport
Federal, state or county government issued employee photo
ID
University, college or high school photo ID.
Effective January 16, 2002, guests boarding at any staffed station between Washington and Boston are required to purchase a ticket prior to boarding the train. Conductors will not sell tickets on board any train between Washington and Boston to customers boarding at stations whose ticket office is open at time of train departure. Photo identification is required in order to purchase tickets from conductors on board trains in other areas of the country outside the Washington-Boston corridor, as well as for guests boarding at unstaffed stations between Washington and Boston.
These procedures are over a year old? What's new?
And this is important because....
And this is important because....
you might be an ethnically profiled individual, whom they *cannot* ethically ethnically profile, but in whom there may be a profileable interest for security purposes.
And because they do not know what else to do, but know that they *must* do something, lest you hijack a Accella and run it into the Statue of Liberty (or something).
:^) Elias
Well, I was thinking that one way around these kinds of (ineffective) security arrangements would be to just follow the examples set out in western movies...
-Robert King
That's why you don't hear about people screwing around on trains once they get upstate. As they used to say on the sign for Adirondack Trailways at the Port Authority, "Passengers must check guns with driver before boarding bus, it's the LAW." :)
We'll still be allowed to enter the platform at Penn Station to see the trains though, right? That's really what I want.
Another meaningless piece of “security.” Notice that they don’t require you to show the ID on boarding and check that the name on the ticket (if indeed there is one) matches the name of the person who boards.
All this measure will achieve is some warm and fuzzy feelings in people who don’t understand real security.
John
i,am was my to 34th st on the F line,as i as the train was pulling in
at west 4th st,i saw the grand st shuttle train,i also saw that R46#5812 had the oragen s on it,s front rollsign, said to myself at
least now they put in a good s.as the train was pulling out of west 4th st i saw that R46#5810 had a blue s on it,s fron rollsign.it was
car numbers:
5812,5813,5811,5810
soon as i saw that i said,what that blue colored s doing on an R46,
isn,t it sopose to be on the rockaway pk shuttle(R44).the grand st
shuttle should have the oragen colored s and the rockaway pk shuttle
should have the blue colored s.
til next time
The R44 and R46 must have all gotten the same sign rolls. In fact, I think their rolls are the same ones on the R68 and R68A
For the shuttles, based on what I've seen, it doesn't seem that the MTA cares that much what color the sign is, as long as it says "S." Since all of the shuttles are far apart from each other, you really can't get confused by the color. I've seen yellow and orange "S" on the Franklin shuttle as well.
I've seen yellow and orange "S" on the Franklin shuttle as well.
I suppose if it's yellow they have the excuse that it was yellow on the 1967 map.
Thats funny, they have blue shuttle roll signs but they use the black bullets for the Rockaway Park shuttle :-\. Anyway, its still the shuttle and all of them are nowhere near each other so confusion is out of the question; it says S and that's it.
Well I started off the day at Hamelton NJ to catch the 7:18 train into Penn. I was extremely lucky as the engineer left the front door of te Arrow III open and I got a railfan view the entire way. the bad news was that we ran on Approach (and sometimes restricting) all the way from UNION to A. Along the way I saw at least 3 ALP-46 units in service on the NEC and many Comet V cars.
I arrived in Penn about 15 minutes late, but I had more than enough time to catch the 8:55 Long Beach train. We were about 5 minutes late out of Penn because the train was having trouble charging up the brake line, but we were soon underway and I was able to photograph the position lights from there to JAY despite the a somewhat craptastic railfan window. At JAY, fellow subtalker and MNRR employee A 8AV FULTON EXP got on the first car to meet me. American Pig was also supposted to meet me, but something happened to him. I rode w/ A 8th Ave all the way to long beach having a great conversation the whole way. At LB 8th Ave had to go home and I was left on my own to catch the N33 bus to Far Rock. At the Far Rock A train station I managed to raise Pigs on his Cell and found that he was enroute to Jamacia. I hoofed it to the Far Rock LIRR station and caught the 11:26 train to Jamacia and I caught an M-7 on the main line at VALLEY! After I met pigs at Jamacia we decided that because we didn't have enough time to go to Oyster Bay we instead caught a train to West Hempstead and then caught the N15 bus to Hempstead where we caught the 2:01 train back to Flatbush terminal.
We pulled into Flatbush at 2:53 and saw an M-7 train sitting on track 1. After checking out the M-7 (IT SUCKED! NO Railfan view at all!) we caught an R train to Courtlandt where we then walked to the WTP and then to see the improved, but still lacking replacement WTC2 designs. From there we walked to Rector on the 1/9 to ride through the new Greenwitch tunnel. We took the 1/9 to 50th St where we then walked up to 53rd to eat at Rupert Gee's Hello Deli. After finishing up there I took the 1/9 back to Penn Staton and managed to catch the 5:42 Super Express to Hamelton.
The only downside to the day was that I left my hat on NJT super-express.
American Pig was also supposted to meet me, but something happened to him.
He was a little too slow when he passed in front of the butcher shop.
That kind of anti-swinitsm is UNCALLED FOR.
Only if you don't eat pork!
In order to avoid taking the bus that morning, I had my father drive me with my mother to the subway, which meant I had to leave earlier than otherwise planned.
When I came to Penn Station, since I felt I was early enough to start at Penn, I ended up ONE MINUTE LATE. Unfortunately, the train was already off the board, so I would not be able to find it. Figuring I would be able to catch Mike with a train to Far Rock, I for some reason took the E to Jamaica to save a few cents. I should have taken the A to Far Rockaway.
When I came to Jamaica, I looked up the schedules and realized that I wouldn't be able to make it. Consulting the posted bus map, I found that the Q53 goes nonstop from 63rd Drive to to Broad Channel, so I decided to go there. Unfortunately, I foolishly decided to transfer to the local at Forest Hills instead of taking the bus from Roosevelt. The R that was parked at 71 was delayed on account of a really dirty car, and then it was going to run express. Instead of waiting, I went up to pick up the bus, and as luck would have it, JM called me. I then re-entered the subway and got onto that next R. But when JM called me the second time, since I was not yet on the bus, I decided to meet him at JAM. So I took the V to the E. While waiting, I perused the "culinary" oppurtunities at Sutphin, and found them unimpressive. So I rode to Jamaica Center to see what options were available there, and they were slightly improved.
I returned to Sutphin at 12:15PM when I met Mike.
After we finished with Rupert Jee's Hello Deli, we got onto the 1/9, which didn't arrive for a while. By that time, the platform was jampacked, and we didn't make it onto the next train. Luckily, and predictably, there was another train directly behind it that was mostly empty. I left at Times Square to go my separate way.
Go to http://www.mkc.zaq.ne.jp/rink/trainmall.htm
This has photos of subways and suburban railways of Japanese cities
On Thursday, January 9th, 6:00 PM (1800 Hrs.) there will be a major meeting and conference at Hunter College auditorium off Park Avenue concerning the ratification of the '2002 Contract.' I will be there...lit up like a 'Christmas Tree.' 239th Yard is beeeg troubles to Toussaint...he spent over two hours in 'shopgate meeting' with us after lunch. Look for me in the 'peanut gallery.'
Sent in my ballot. Vote NO, vote NO, send a message that we're shortchanged with the contract. The contract benefits those with absense/sick abuse/disciplinary problems...good employees who do good work for MTA get burned. CI Peter is OnTheJuice.
I didn't get my ballot yet.
Well. I just got mine!!!! Of course, made my decision weeks before station agents/RTO/CED woke up. Got two hours of 'rest' the other day.....never had a quieter time in the lunchroom ever. The smucks who disturb OUR shopgate meetings playing dominoes in disrespect were quiet to honor THEIR leader who accused our shop steward of not holding regular union meetings. You should get your ballot in a day or so....follow your heart to make a proper decision. IF you have absence/sick abuse/disciplanary problems...this is YOUR contract. If you are a good civil servant of record, throw it out. CI Peter
I got mines yesterday.
Juice who are you ? How long you been down here what a year maybe year and a half.The contract is not bad if you read it carefully and you being of the age when retirment is on the radar,IF the contract is not Ratified its goes to arbritation WHO STATED THEY WONT TOUCH THE H.B.T. So before you going running off at the mouth in the peanut gallery remember 500 Board of Ed people with a NO LAYOFF CLAUSE JUST GOT LAID OFF.Or are the changes in discipline not enough?
Dude your a rookie RCI which means diddly you work in 239 because no one else really wanted to work on the redbirds relax get a grip you got a good job great benefits.And in a few years when that prescription coverage for retirees you need you will be glad the contract got ratified.
What are the deepest subway stations in NYC? The Roosevelt Island station on the (F) has over 100 stairs to walk down. Any other subway stations like this?
191 on the 1 is the deepest station in the system.
Is it *really*?
It may seem to be the deepest from the surface, but surely there are many lines much deeper than that. I mean, at 125th Street the (1) is way above sea level on a trestle, surely by 191 it is not *below* sea level. I guess I'd have to nominate the PATH at WTC as the deepest, at least while it still existed. Was anything else deeper than the bedrock?
Elias
I don't know if it is the deepest in absolute terms, but I believe that relative to the ground above it, 191 St on the 1 is the deepest station.
Take Pride,
Brian
That is correct. The station furthest below sea level IIRC is Roosevelt Island.
63/Lexington Avemue is probably the same depth or a little closer.
I think 63rd/Lex westbound is 80 feet down, eastbound is 100 feet down.
"63/Lexington Avemue is probably the same depth or a little closer."
But street level is much higher in altitude at 63rd than at RI. RI is definitely further below sea level than Lex/63. Not clear if PATH WTC is further below sea level or not.
Indeed. Despite that, there is a nearly horizontal passageway from Broadway to the lower mezzanine, one flight above the platforms. Such is life in Washington Heights.
Right. 190 on the A is another interesting station -it has the elevators to the top of the hill (in the park)as well as a tunnel tot he bottom of the hill.
Even better, both sets of elevators and both passageways are outside of fare control (perhaps specifically to provide this public service), so it's possible to go from the top of one hill to the top of the other without climbing.
As originally built, the IND Washington Heights elevators were INSIDE fare control. Later on the fare control areas were reconfigured so that non-riders could take advantage of the elevators too.
190th Street on the A is the deepest station in the system...
When an entire thread says to the contrary.
I'm not sure if this is true, but I was told that for 125th Street on the (1), the tracks don't actually rise, but rather, the street dips down. It seems plausible because Manhattan is hilly. If that's the case, then the track's altitute above sea level doesn't change much between 116th and 137th.
Yes, in both directions, the tracks actually drop after leaving 125 St, so in absolute terms, the 125 St station is lower than both 116 St station and the 137 St station.
Take Pride,
Brian
from the site:
191 (1)--160 feet below street level
190-(A)==140 feet below street level
Roos. Is.-100 feet below street level
measurements ont he site were taken by Tdd Glickman using hsi altimeter watch. he takes the difference between street reading ans suwbay readings for the relative depth or altitude. Measuremenst are not based ons ea level.
125 and Broadway-- At this location Broadway enters a valley known as Manhattan valley. The line is on a viaduct to maintain a relatively level ride. At Dyckman's North (geographic North) end, the ground drops away and we are on a true El structure.
the tunnels at 190,A and 191 ,1 line, are due to geography fo the streets and do not belong to transit but the Department of Parks.
I am sure Andy can elaborate on subtalk.
191st on the 1/9.
I heard that was the west-most station on the system geographically, but I don't think it is the deepest.
The 1/9 at 191st can't be the west-most station, 'cause the 190th Street stop of the 'A' lies to its west.
It is commonly accepted as the "deepest" (i.e. furthest vertical distance to street level directly above it). However, it really isn't that deep compared to sea-level. Indeed, you can walk into the station using a long, horizontal tunnel from Broadway, walk down a short flight of stairs, and you are at track level. Also, the next stop north on the 1/9 (200th/Dyckman) is the transition from subway to elevated, and the station lies above street level. Therefore, track level at the 191st St stop is actually fairly high up w.r.t. sea level.
As pointed out elsewhere, the reason that the 191st stop lies so far below street level is because the 1/9 line was tunneled through the high ridge of Fort George, which is a hill running north south just to the east of Broadway. Upper Manhattan is very hilly.
Finally, I am a little suprised that the 191st Street station of the 1/9 remains accepted as the "deepest station". I was at the Roosevelt Island station recently, and I must say that the station is waaaaaaaay down there. Is the 191st stop really still the deepest station, or has that bit of subway trivia simply not been updated recently?
>>>Is the 191st stop really still the deepest station, or has that bit of subway trivia simply not been updated recently?<<<
191st Street---160 feet deep
191st Street is next. There are no mosaics save for a couple of large "191st Street" name signs in bad condition at the extreme ends of either platform. The rest of the station's signage are 1980s MTA-style black steel and enamel signs on the walls and columns. On the southbound platform there is a room formed by corrugated metal labeled "trash room". There are crossovers similar to those in the other deep-tunnel stations but here they are walled in, so you cannot see the trains. (It is unknown whether the walls are original or later addition.)
The elevators here are outside the fare control. Looking through a peephole I found a passageway to old style elevators similar to those at 181st Street. his station is the deepest below the street level at 160 feet down. (Second is Roosevelt Island station on the IND 6th Avenue Line).
Roos. Island---100 feet deep
>>>Roosevelt Island. Two side platforms, two tracks. At 100 feet below ground level, this is one of the deepest stations in the system. Between the tracks there is a low curtain wall between the two tracks with alternating niches for transit workers. There are elevators and escalators up to the fare control building at street level. The station building is a large glass-enclosed space, giving us a view of the island and the tram which is to the south of the subway station. Roosevelt Island station is very "Parisien" (a side-platform station with no center columns) and is similar to some of the deep tunnel IRT stations on the West Side.
Info obtained from station by station descriptions located on this site.
Peace,
ANDEE
The depth measurements in this site's Station-by-Station section were made by me with a pressure-sensitive altimeter. It is accurate +/- 10 feet. The measurements reflect depth below street level, not sea level. And so...
191 is the deepest below street level
Roosevelt island is the deepest below sea level.
"Roosevelt island is the deepest below sea level."
But is it deeper than PATH WTC?
Thank you for the information. :)
The subway system's westernmost station is -- you're not going to believe this -- 95th Street on the R. Really! Check it out on a good map.
I don't find that so surprising (well, because I already knew, but when I first heard...). Thinking of a station in Manhattan is the same kind of Manhattanocentrism that gives the Manhattan Bridge, a bridge that travels nearly perfectly north-south, a north side and a south side.
I don't find that so surprising (well, because I already knew, but when I first heard...). Thinking of a station in Manhattan is the same kind of Manhattanocentrism that gives the Manhattan Bridge, a bridge that travels nearly perfectly north-south, a north side and a south side.
Confusion over the Manhattan Bridge results from the fact that directions in Manhattan are given with respect to the street grid rather than true north-and-south. Street grid north is something like 26 degrees off of true north.
Trivia: Stuyvesant Street is the only Manhattan street that runs east to west in compass terms.
And the 191st Street tunnel to Broadway is currently the longest fare-free zone tunnel in Manahattan, so long that it's on the old Hagstrom Map.
It's not as bad as Montreal, which is almost 90 degrees off.
I thought it was Tottenville.
Tottenville isn't part of the subway system.
not yet, anyway. But with this recently announced reorganization of "MTA Subway", it will be.
--Mark
Will each station on the SIRT get token booths like the rest of the other subway stops then?
Why would they need token booths? You only pay at St. George (entering and leaving).
I never though about that. I keep forgetting that the subway map is positioned to make it look like Manhattan is a perfect north-south island, when it really isn't.
Philidelphia is 40 degrees north of the equator.
If you go directly SOUTH of Philidelphia until you are 40 degrees SOUTH of the equator, where will you be?
Elias
In the Pacific Ocean off the coast of Chile.
190 Street on the (A) line.
Please go to www.nycsubway.org and read the IND 8th avenue, IRT Westside Manhattan and IND 6AV pages.
I decided to head up to the Bronx to catch what Redbird action is left. After photographing a ton of R-62's, I finally saw a redbird set going sb. I was on the nb platform at 176 St (4), so I just took a few photos (they came out terrible) and watched it leave. It short while later another redbird set came nb.
After snapping a photo, I hopped on and rode the rear railfan window up to Woodlawn. There, a took a couple more photos, hopped back on, and rode same (now front) railfan window all the way to Crown Hts-Utica Av! Boy did my legs hurt. Max speeds hit on the trip were 39, 39, and 45 (in the Joralemon Street Tunnel).
At Utica Av, I went downstairs and hoped that they would send that set back north. A few minutes later, it appeared. The T/O, upon walking out of that little room, somehow knew I was out riding for fun (I don't think he was the T/O on the trip south because he complained when the redbird set showed up) and we chatted for a bit. Before we left Utica, both a 2 and a 5 left ahead of us. I guess they came from a yard? Anyhow, that 5 kept us from hitting any decent speed once we left.
I got off at Wall St, because I saw that there was some space on the sb side to take head on photos. When I got off the redbird, I took a photo of the T/O with his train, but my camera's status light blinked green (instead of a steady green) meaning that it wasn't focused. So of course, the photo was out of focus. Just as the redbird train I got off of pulled out, I saw that there was another redbird set leaving sb.
I walked under to the sb side and tried to take some photos, but no matter what I did to the settings, I couldn't get the camera to focus. I put it on ISO 400 and tried all the modes, automatic mode, shutter priority, aperture priority and full manual, but nothing worked. Finally, I gave up in frustration and headed for home. (during this time I saw yet another redbird set going nb. it was a 5)
I know subway stations aren't well lit, but come on, there has to be a way to take focused photos down there! (BTW, this is a whole seperate issue from my normal problem of holding the camera steady while it takes an underground photo in focus so there is no blurring.) Does anyone know any tricks that might help me to get my camera to focus in underground stations?
I will try to have my photos from this trip online by tomorrow night and I will post a message here when I do. Tomorrow I might photograph some Sea Beach and Brighton, and also Queenboro Plaza from that parking garage. Are there any other parking garages that are close to subway tracks that you know are good spots for taking photos?
Take Pride,
Brian
Here is one photo to hold you over till i get the rest online. It was taken on 1/8/03 at 167 St.
Take Pride,
Brian
WOW NO RUST ON THE SIDES AT ALL
& she is in good shape !!
Yeah, in comparison to her sisters on the Flushing line...
A rare sight these days.... I didn't see one at all today during my visit.
I gotta compliment you Brian, that pic is good, its in great shape and there's hardly any corrosion :-).
Well my digicam has the same problem in low light situations, the green light will continue to blink. Sometimes the photos come out fine, but in the subway its hard due to poor lighting.
What kind of camera do you use for taking photos underground? I used to have a similiar problem, but I fooled around enough with the camera to know all of its settings and it takes photos quite well underground (See a previous posting of mine back from Sunday, it has a Redbird at 14 St Union Square).
I have a Toshiba PDR-M71
I'm using a Canon A40, and for a low end camera, its been pumping out some pretty good pictures.
Flash: What flash mode are you using? I found Fill works the best for me, and doesn't drown out the station lighting. For darker stations, use no flash, if you think you can hold the camera steady. I had some very good pictures at Middletown Road (6) at about midnight, taken with no flash (station has incandescent lighting). Unfortunately I can't seem to find them, may have accidentally deleted them. My examples below are a bit more exaggerated than a subway station, but the same applies.
AF: What focus mode are you using? My camera has a 1 point and 3 point mode, and the 1 point always turns out the best in the subway. I don't know why, but I'm guess that because there are so many things down there (the train, columns, light fixtures, signs, etc), the 3 point catches object you don't want and screws up the focus.
Lighting: Try keeping the light source away from the camera's focus rectangle. Direct light (and some reflected) tends to throw the focus off.
Speed: I usually leave mine to ISO: Auto and it does just fine. In fact I have taken some nice pictures with the speed set to 50.
Also, now I don't know how well you are with pictures, so I'm not pointing to you specifically. A lot of people I see taking pictures take the picture and start moving as soon as they hear the click. My mother took some pretty aweful pictures of Italy because she was rushing with the tour group and didn't stay steady long enough after the shutter triggered. Whenever I take a picture I always hold the camera in the same position for about a second before I move. But if you know this already, move on...
http://secondavenueproject.tripod.com/pics.html
I'm not a pro, and I don't know how well you know your camera, so these are just some general tips I found to work. Hope this info helps you a bit.
Take a look, just sign in, its free, and you can see my subway photos.
http://www.imagestation.com/member/?name=R40_Railfan
Just cut-and-paste (I forget how to post a link up).
Anthony
Flash: What flash mode are you using? I found Fill works the best for me, and doesn't drown out the station lighting. For darker stations, use no flash, if you think you can hold the camera steady. I had some very good pictures at Middletown Road (6) at about midnight, taken with noflash (station has incandescent lighting). Unfortunately I can't seem to find them, may have accidentally deleted them. My examples below are a bit more exaggerated than a subway station, but the same applies.
I don't use a flash on NYC Transit property unless I have a really really really good reason to use it and no one is around and I'm feeling brave. This is because most people agree that using a flash is illegal in the NYC Subway. But, if I see NYC Transit workers taking photos with the flash on, then I join right in.
AF: What focus mode are you using? My camera has a 1 point and 3 point mode, and the 1 point always turns out the best in the subway. I don't know why, but I'm guess that because there are so many things down there (the train, columns, light fixtures, signs, etc), the 3 point catches object you don't want and screws up the focus.
I use AF mode.
Lighting: Try keeping the light source away from the camera's focus rectangle. Direct light (and some reflected) tends to throw the focus off.
Yes.
Speed: I usually leave mine to ISO: Auto and it does just fine. In fact I have taken some nice pictures with the speed set to 50.
I leave mine on ISO 100 unless I am shotting in dark areas and then I change it to ISO 200 or 400.
Flash: What flash mode are you using? I found Fill works the best for me, and doesn't drown out the station lighting. For darker stations, use no flash, if you think you can hold the camera steady. I had some very good pictures at Middletown Road (6) at about midnight, taken with no flash (station has incandescent lighting).
I have had good results in underground stations with Kodachrome, using no flash as long as I hold the camera still. If you use flash on mosaic tiles, the flash reflects back from the tiles. Mine come out better without flash. Of course NEVER use flash on an approaching train. There's a reason it's illegal to use flash. You can temporarily "blind" a T/O if his/her eyes are used to a dark tunnel.
Of course NEVER use flash on an approaching train. There's a reason it's illegal to use flash. You can temporarily "blind" a T/O if his/her eyes are used to a dark tunnel.
Not only is it illegal, but its just common sense.
Are there any other parking garages that are close to subway tracks that you know are good spots for taking photos?
There's one on the 4 line around 183rd or Fordham Road, I forget.
Not a garage, but there's a hospital that has a driveway that becomes level with the IRT Broadway Line right by the Broadway Bridge. It's at 217th St.
When baseball season starts again, you have a whole bunch of garages at Yankee Stadium. It makes a great spot for video, too.
For other ideas, take a look at my video list and see where I've shot from.
--Mark
Did you take down the fleet numbers? If you didn't you should have to show what is remaining in the mainline Redbird fleet.
Noticed on my ride home tonight that some graffiti schmuck has been attacking walls on the 2/5 line in Brooklyn.
First saw this red magic-markered crap on the s/b side of the Franklin Avenue station (head end).
Similar red-scribbling was on the 'Stop' sign backboard of track #2 at Flatbush/Brooklyn College terminal.
I hope they catch this rodent before he becomes a real plague on the system.
The transit police should go all out to catch these punks. Any slacking of this will result in another black eye for the New York Subway, and finking on the guy who did this would be a public service, not an act of betrayal. I hope if they do catch him they perform a little friendly persuasion on the rat before they take him in.
Agreed.
"I hope if they do catch him they perform a little friendly persuasion on the rat before they take him in. "
And when said person rightfully sues and wins, I hope they specifically use your tax money to pay off the award.
you might not like it, but there's a reason for the system, especially considering they might catch the wrong guy.
The Blue wall of silence will take care of that. And stop this worrying about the perp and instead worry about the victim. And the victim is the taxpayer who has to carry the load when this destruction of property takes place. You could have mentioned that at least you agreed with me that the bum should be punished, but instead you took the side of the perp. You sir are a liberal through and through and your opinions are why they are in disrepute in this country. Being a liberal today is tantamount to being an epithat.
So to be a conservative one has to completely ignore the 6th and 8th amendments to the Constitution. If being a liberal means supporting the Constitution of the United States, then COLOR ME LIBERAL.
Good Going Piggy. Conseratives will call anybody a Liberal who opposes them. The Only thing further right these days then a Rural WSAP Republican is a Fascist or Nazi.
Its popping up all over, has been for the past few months.
Last time I was on the E, someone had markered up the inside of the car and cab.
A few months ago on the F, about a good 1/4 of the N/B side of 75th Ave was covered in spray painted graffitti. Fortunately that didn't last very long, it was gone the next day and never reappeared.
Then last I was on the G, a lot of the stations had this weird looking spray painted alien thingies. Even on the columns at Court Square. They were there for a few days.
You're going to get a little here and a little there, its normal and never really disappeared after the TA's big cleanup. It was just cleaned up quickly and no one ever noticed (look at the grout between tiles and youll see the evidence of recent graffitti).
But, I wouldn't start worrying until I see half a station covered. Yes its a crime for any to appear; but its not out of hand (yet), so I wouldn't start jumping the gun saying the bad ol' days are back.
As the resources of the NYPD are being strained I have noticed one thing, there are fewer undercover sweeps conducted at turnstiles in stations (to catch farebeaters who show no respect for this system.). Fewer sweeps does indicate that most of these people will committ another crime (i.e. graffitti).
Also the artist who on occasion, writes "PRAY" in car ads, is doing this more often on more ads this past week.
I saw an R-142 on the 2 line that had some interior tagging.
Yeah, it's all over. There's a big black "tag" of some kind on the far wall across the tracks on the Manhattan-bound side of 7th Avenue on the F, close to 8th Avenue. That stuff didn't used to remain long, but this blemish has been there for weeks. What I want to know is what this genius stood on to do that defacing. It's too high off the tracks and there's no clearance!
These vandals do their dirty work late at night, where there are 20 minute headways, more than enough time to leave their "tag".
After my post, I had a later thought that the bastard may have been doing his dirty work while standing between cars on a stopped train. Of course, he would have to have been lucky to get the rare set of R-32's running on the Culver/6th Av, to gain easy access to the anticlimber ledge.
I agree but lets HOPE it doesn't get rampant as it did in the 70's. Its too early to say that the plague will spread like it did in the past but you never know.
yeah, the world is coming to an end, and it's going to be just like the 70's again.
right.
when are people going to realize that as bad as things are, they are not getting worse. the crime rate is lower than ever, and the pd. better run than it was 20 years ago. they're not going to let it slide for long.
Check out the walls at the Court Sq - bound platform at Bedford-Nostrand; tagged up with red and green garbage graffiti.
When are they going to finish putting up the fluorescent lights in the Fourth Avenue Tunnel? It seems they have been working on that for years.
- Lyle Goldman
On Thu Jan 9, 2003 02:20:12, Lyle Goldman <gizmo-p@erols.com> wrote:
>
> When are they going to finish putting up the fluorescent lights in the Fourth Avenue Tunnel?
> It seems they have been working on that for years.
>
Nobody has any idea?
- Lyle Goldman
With my railfan view out the Arrow III MU trains I was riding into Penn today I happened to notice that they have had installed a new Speedometer and Cab signal display. The old display had a digital speed readout and around it in a circle the 4 cab signals in colour light representation. Well the new LCD speedo / CSS unit has a white lit background w/ the speed in big numbers in the middle. Around the outside in a circle are speed hash-marks and then a segmented green bar that grows round the dial to match your speed. The cab signal is shown as a little tic mark on this outer speed guage. When you overspeed the amount you are oversped turns red and a mittle warning bar thinggie appears below the numeric speed reading. Aside from the fact that the current cab signal status is a little hard to read at a glance (ideally cab signals should display on a miniature signal in the cab) the system is realy cool.
In case any of you have missed it Amtrak has a new signal and I am not sure what it implies. The new signal is a flashing green clear and it appears as (I think) "Cab Speed" in the NORAC rulebook. Now, before you all start jumping to conclusions here I know that it is not the same as the MNRR "cab speed" signal that just tells you to operate via cab signal indication. The non-MNRR waysideless cab signal approach has normal signals at interlocking and furthermore I have seen this signal in wayside signal territory. Second, this does not mean clear to next interlocking as that is what the lunar white 'C' signals are for. I have seen these indications in the area around new hi-speed turnouts and I believe that they are associated with their use. Second, while inbound on my NJT Arrow III I had to chance to observe the cab signals in the cab when we passed this clashing green aspect. I observed the cab signals fluctuateing frequently between clear and approach med (we were closely following someone at the time), but every so often the cab signals would cut out completely (as if we were in non-cab signal territory). The problem w/ the hi-speed turnouts is that the current speed signaling system is not equipped to handle them. The flashing green is clearly an attempt to manage them (normal clear is 120, normal diverging is 45, the HST's are 80-100 so Amtrak needs two more "speeds"). Any thoughts? Speculations?
it looks to me the flashing green is the approach med signal. it come on after the yellow, and before the steady green. there a 2 of the them at new secaucus project westbound(south). i could be wrong.
it looks to me the flashing green is the approach med signal. it come on after the yellow, and before the steady green. there a 2 of the them at new secaucus project westbound(south). i could be wrong.
Approach medium is approach medium. Cab speed is whatever the CSS system is saying. I want to know how the Cab Speed aspect is being employed and how it is implimented w/ HST's.
Based on the 7th edition of NORAC, flashing green is Cab Speed
"Proceed in accordance with cab signal indication. Reduce speed to not exceeding 60 mph if Cab Speed signal is displayed wihtout a signal speed, of if cab signals are inoperative."
Amtrak can handle different speeds for interlockings through the employee timetable, listing a maximum speed for each high speed turnout.
Michael
Washington, DC
They can list turnout speeds in the rule book, but how does the engineer know if he is lined on the diverging route or the straight route? Since even the HST speed is less than linespeed, should this speed restriction be enforced by any form of ATC?
I we now know that Amtrak can use the lack of a cab signal to restrict speed to 60 (by the cab speed rule) or to 80 (if the cab signal box in abesnce of a cab signal limits speed to 80.
"They can list turnout speeds in the rule book, but how does the engineer know if he is lined on the diverging route or the straight route?"
One way to do it is to actually see if you get switched onto the curve. If you derail and screw up the whole Northeast Corridor, you know you were going too fast.
:0)
I do not recommend this method, however.
We at Metro North use the same signal. follow my explanation below...
INSIDE Grand Central terminal interlockings, u can only see the signals below......
RED over Green= TERMINAL PROCEED. INDICATION= PROCEED AT RESTRICTED SPEED THROUGH INTERLOCKING LIMITS, NEXT SIGNAL IS MORE FAVORABLE THAN TERMINAL RESTRICTING. FOR NORAC EXPERTS IT MEANS SAME AS RULE 283, MEDIUM CLEAR
RED OVER FLASHING YELLOW=TERMINAL APPROACH
INDICATION= BE PREPARED TO STOP AT NEXT INTERLOCKING SIGNAL. MEANS SAME AS AMTRAK'S SLOW APPROACH RULE 287
RED OVER STEADY YELLOW= TERMINAL RESTRICTING.
INDICATION= PROCEED AT RESTRICED SPEED, MEANS SAME AS AMTRAK 290
RED= TERMINAL STOP
INDICATION= STOP. DO I NEED FURTHER EXPLANATION! LOL
ONCE U REACH THE LADDER TRACKS AT GRAND CENTRAL TERMINAL U GET 2 INDICATIONS
FLASHING GREEN=PROCEED CAB
INDICATION= PROCEED BY WHAT IS DISPLAYED BY CSS. SAME AS AMTRAK CAB SPEED
DOUBLE RED= STOP SIGNAL
INDICATION=STOP! SAME AS AMTRAK 292 STOP SIGNAL.
We at Metro North use the same signal. follow my explanation below...
INSIDE Grand Central terminal interlockings, u can only see the signals below......
RED over Green= TERMINAL PROCEED. INDICATION= PROCEED AT RESTRICTED SPEED THROUGH INTERLOCKING LIMITS, NEXT SIGNAL IS MORE FAVORABLE THAN TERMINAL RESTRICTING. FOR NORAC EXPERTS IT MEANS SAME AS RULE 283, MEDIUM CLEAR
RED OVER FLASHING YELLOW=TERMINAL APPROACH
INDICATION= BE PREPARED TO STOP AT NEXT INTERLOCKING SIGNAL. MEANS SAME AS AMTRAK'S SLOW APPROACH RULE 287
RED OVER STEADY YELLOW= TERMINAL RESTRICTING.
INDICATION= PROCEED AT RESTRICED SPEED, MEANS SAME AS AMTRAK 290
RED= TERMINAL STOP
INDICATION= STOP. DO I NEED FURTHER EXPLANATION! LOL
ONCE U REACH THE LADDER TRACKS AT GRAND CENTRAL TERMINAL U GET 2 INDICATIONS
FLASHING GREEN=PROCEED CAB
INDICATION= PROCEED BY WHAT IS DISPLAYED BY CSS. SAME AS AMTRAK CAB SPEED
DOUBLE RED= STOP SIGNAL
INDICATION=STOP! SAME AS AMTRAK 292 STOP SIGNAL.
OUR SIGNAL SYSTEM ON THE MAINLINE IS SIMILAR TO AMTRAKS CAB SPEED. THE ONLY 2 INDICATIONS OUTSIDE OF GRAND CENTRAL ARE THE PROCEED CAB AND STOP SIGNAL.
WHEN U RECIEVE A FLASHING GREEN SIGNAL AROUND CP5 WHICH IS NORTH OF 125TH STREET, LETS SAY THEY DIVERGE YOU TO THE HUDSON LINE TO GO TO CROTON HARMON. INSIDE UR CAB U HAVE N, L,M,R. TRANSLATION NORMAL, LIMITED, MEDIUM, AND RESTRICTED. NORMAL IS 80, LIMITED IS 45 AND BELOW, MEDIUM 30 AND BELOW, AND RESTRICTED IS 15 OR BELOW.
IN ORDER TO SWITCH OVER, THE CSS RECIEVES A MEDIUM OR LIMITED CODE AND FORCES THE ENGINEER BY WAY OF ASC, TO SLOW HIS BUTT DOWN TO THE APPROPIATE SPEED. FOR EXAMPLE, MY TRAIN ENTERS CP5 LETS SAY, AND THEY ARE DIVERGING ME OVER. I RECIEVE A LIMITED CODE, SO I PRESS ACKNOWLEDGE, AND SLOW DOWN TO 40 WHICH IS A SAFE SPEED TO CROSS THE SWITCH. FAILURE TO ACKNOWLEDGE RESULTS IN A PENALTY BRAKING. IF UR CONDUCTOR RATS YOU OUT OR RTC CALLS U, SAY GOODBYE. THEY MIGHT REVOKE YOUR FRA ENGINEER LICENSE!
WELCOME TO METRO NORTH LADIES AND GENTLEMEN
ISNT THIS GREAT! IM ONLY A MACHINE OPERATOR AND I KNOW THIS!
MNRR dosen't need to worry about a differrent speed for HST's because the max speed on MNRR is 80 or 90 which is the speed of the HST's so the engineer just gets a clear, same for the LIRR. On Amtrak an engineer might be going 110-120 and need to slow down to 80 to negiotiate the HST.
As a guess, "cab speed" would only display at high speed turnouts when the switch is set for reverse to cross over. I imagine that if the switch is lined normal for a straight through move, the signal would be clear and not cab speed.
Michael
Here are a few images from my LIRR/NJT trip today.
First, I managed to get proof that the PC still stops at Elizabeth!
For those of you who don't know, the LIRR is position light heaven. Dosen't a sight like this just make you want to swoon? If I ever get the chance I'd have the FRA mandate these type of signals. Hell, they're ADA compliant for colour blindness.
Finally, some hot action on the LIRR Main Line between HAROLD and JAY.
Well that's it for now, more later.
Great photos! Thanks.
---Brian
Joe Frank posted this to those of us on his NYC Transit Modelling group, wanted to share it here, but ALL THANKS GO TO UNCLE JOE for finding this sweet morsel, not me.
Check it out!
THE PARK AVENUE IMPROVEMENT IN NEW YORK CITY
OOOOOOoooooooooooooo! There's MORE!
TEMPORARY HARLEM RIVER BRIDGE AND THE MOVING OF THE MOTT HAVEN STATION.
Yep ... MORE ... THANKS, Unca Joe!
IMPROVEMENTS AT THE HARLEM RIVER BRIDGE
This Uncle Joe better not be Joe Bruno.
No, he's a GOOD Joe ... he's the guy who posts the pictures of his model Els and trains in O gauge of the long gone treats that once roamed the rails in the various boroughs, noted historian and very knowledgable person on the times before Unca Selkirk was a stain in daddy's pants. :)
Great discovery, that site, no? Thank Unca Joe. And scroo the other one.
I haven't checked it out yet, I have other things to do (I have it added to my bookmarks), but my mouth was watering (FOAMING!) when I saw the concept.
I don't have time to look at it now but wanted to add a shortcut to my computer so I could look at it later, but it says "I don't have permission to right click".
Oh well.
"I don't have permission to right click".
That's a good one! Whatever will they come up with next?!?
Besides, do you REALLY think Joe Bruno gives a rat's ass about anything down there south of 42 latitude? Get real. :)
With all the posts you make about Joe Bruno, I'm surprised you found the time to post about someone else.
AGAIN from Uncle Joe Frank ... wow! He's found a rockin' site to visit for all of us!
NEW HAVEN'S ORIGINAL THIRD RAIL
Yup, that's what I have read about.
Uncle Joe is da Man.
Now everybody can realize why Connectuit made third rail illegal after this experiment.
Heh. But I wonder to THIS DAY why they never outlawed Lionel! :)
We have a section of that third rail preserved at Branford.
I noticed that out on the table as I passed through. One of several reasons why I thought folks here would be interested in it, especially with the pictorials of the braking and traction system on the equipment. Joe Frank scored a marvelous find with that article and site.
Great post it was.
An article I did for the tripper a few years back contains
ever more information on the electrification and subsequent
de-electrification of the Nantasket Beach line.....July 2001
I did indeed check that out, and was fascinated by it. That too (there was another article about it in another 'Tripper') was a reason why I thought folks here might like the article since well ... not all of us here subscribe to the Tripper (though joining Branford is something everyone should consider in view of Branford's preservation of so many important NYC Subway cars and street cars) ...
Amusing that Lionel's concept of rail design wasn't original. :)
Unca Joe has OUTDONE himself! Nice article!
BTW, I now know the inspiration for Lionel's Third Rail system! :)
Heh. The ones on the Park avenue improvements were also pretty good as well - photos and woodcuts and drawings of the Park Avenue elevated, bridgework, Mott Haven ... Joe's been bored apparently and found some REALLY nice stuff there ...
Unca Joe's going nuts ... heh.
Brooklyn Bridge Page
I've always been a little puzzled about how LIRR trains were routed back in the days when trestle service still existed but after the Atlantic Ave line was put into the tunnel. I studied Herbert George's "Change at Ozone Park" and this is what I came up with.
ATLANTIC LINE - Flatbush Ave - Woodhaven - Jamaica - Valley Stream
ROCK PARK LINE - Flatbush/Penn - Woodhaven Jct - Trestle - Rock Park
FAR ROCK LINE - Flatbush/Penn - Woodhaven Jct - Trestle - Valley Stream
Have I made any mistakes? Was Valley Stream in fact a terminal for the Far Rock and Atlantic trains in those days?
If I remember correctly, from reading what was in "Change at Ozone Park", the trains on the Far Rockaway side of the line did a loop -- when they got to Valley Stream, they just kept going back to Penn Station.
Not sure if Valley Stream was a terminal -- there weren't any storage tracks there, other than the shorty for the West Hempstead shuttle. Trains went on to either Far Rockaway or to Long Beach.
There are a few storage tracks at Far Rockaway. Maybe after finishing runs at Valley Stream, they dead-headed to Far Rock for storage.
The service was a loop. A train would go south through Broad Channel to Far Rock, then continue up the line to Valley Stream and back to Jamaica and Penn/Flatbush.
The same was true for the connection between West Hempstead and Country Life Press -- trains would just loop on through (in either direction).
I think I have a 1940's era LIRR schedule in the house here somewhere... I'll see if I can dig it out and post some details later tonight.
CG
The Far Rockaway loop trains would simply change Train # at Valley Stream. An eastbound train (either via Jamaica or via Broad Channel) would become a westbound at Valley Stream, changing from an even (eastbound) to an odd (westbound) train #, and then continue west on the opposite route. That is, a train might leave Penn, stop at Jamaica, then continue to Valley Stream on today's routing. It would then become a westbound train and continue on today's Far Rockaway Branch, going back into Queens at Far Rockaway, and across Broad Channel on today's A train route, and continuing to the LIRR Main Line at White Pot Junction. It would then go the Penn on the current Main Line route through Woodside and into the East River Tunnels. The reverse was of course possible, as was the same type of routing to/from Flatbush.
So that means when the loop service still existed, the portion of the route from Valley Stream to Far Rock and beyond was considered "westbound?" That makes sense, since it is geographically westbound. That portion of route is today called "eastbound" which I find odd and annoying.
"So that means when the loop service still existed, the portion of the route from Valley Stream to Far Rock and beyond was considered 'westbound?'"
On a train going eastbound from Penn or FBA through Valley Stream on today's Far Rockaway route, YES. The train # changed from EB (even #) to WB (odd #) at Valley Stream. On a train going eastbound from Penn or FBA to Valley Stream via the Jamaica Bay route, the opposite scenario would occur
"That makes sense, since it is geographically westbound. That portion of route is today called "eastbound" which I find odd and annoying."
Yes, such a train may be moving westward geographically. However, there are no more loop trains, and all trains go point to point, so every train on the LIRR is designated as either eastward or westward, regardless of true geographic orientation. The NYC subway is similar; every train is either NB or SB, even though the true geogrpahic orientation may be different. Example - #7 Flushing going from Times Square to Main Street is going eastward, parallel to LIRR Port Washington Branch, but is officially a northbound train.
Does the 7 geography also apply to the 42nd St shuttle? And does this translate into the L's northern terminal being 14th & 8th?
Does the 7 geography also apply to the 42nd St shuttle?
I believe not - Times Sq on the (S) is the Northern terminal as it was further North on the original IRT.
And does this translate into the L's northern terminal being 14th & 8th?
Yes, unless it were to run on the Broadway El, when it would be Canarsie.
On the old KK, wasn't 57th St. the "southern" terminal" and 168th St. the "northern terminal"?
Hey BMdoobieW...
I was reading your post about out of focus images in low light situations. I did some research about your model of camera and it does not have an autofocus assist lamp.
What this does is shoot a little beam of light out at the focus point to help the autofocus mechanism work in low lighting. For me this was an important consideration when buying a digicam (I decided upon the Powershot G2, which was a reasonable price after Canon released the G3). Unfortunately your model doesn't allow for an external flash either (most of which have their own AF assist lamp).
Hope that sheds some "light" on the situation. I'd say your best bet is to use the manual focus option when you are shooting in low light situations.
From the Chicago Sun-Times today (Thursday, Jan 9th):
"The CTA board approved plans to upgrade the 107-year-old 'Paulina Connector,' a stretch of elevated track three-fourths of a mile long linking the Green Line with the Blue Line's Douglas Branch. The $33.8 million project will include a power upgrade and the addition of a second track. The connector is used for shuttling trains for maintenance."
The article mentions that the upgrade is not specifically for the Circle Line but, come on, there isn't enough train movement just for maintenance shuttling to warrant two tracks, so you know something's up.
Whole article:
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-train09.html
Actually, if you read the CTA's actual press release, the Paulina work expressly *IS* being done so that Douglas Branch cars could be routed to the Loop. I don't know why (reporter) Herguth reported the way he did.
The CTA has proposed two routing options using the Paulina Connector and the Loop.
Option 1 would terminate the Douglas trains at the Loop and through-route the Orange Line to Kimball, basically removing the Brown Line designation from use. I imagine this would yield much higher service levels for the Orange Line during rush hour seeing as the Brown Line runs many more trains than the Orange Line
In Option 2, they would route the Brown Line from Kimball around the Loop and then out to the Douglas Branch, basically changing the Douglas Branch from a Blue Line Branch to part of the Brown Line. In order to feed the capacity of the Brown Line, which far outstrips the Douglas Branch, they would also route the Orange Line from Midway to Kimball.
Maps:
Option 1:
Loop Detail
System-wide map
Option 2:
Loop Detail
System-wide map
Is your server working? I get cannot find server errors on all four of those maps.
It's not my server, but it does appear to be down right now.
I checked the links after I posted, and they worked then.
Hopefully Chicago-L.org will be back up shortly and you'll be able to follow the links then.
-Eric
They're working now. Thanks for the links.
Even without the Paulina Connector, why can't the Orange and Brown be through-routed? Option 1 seems to be independent of the status of the Paulina Connector.
Will the line to O'Hare have enough service with only one southern branch?
Orange and Brown Lines could be through-routed, and actually are on some weekends when there is trackwork in the Loop.
I think the biggest reason they aren't always through-routed is that the Brown Line can't yet handle 8-car trains which are common on the Orange Line (project to equip the Brown Line for 8-car trails begins this year and ends in early 2008). It may partly be because the Orange Line only carries about 2/3 as many passengers, too (8.1 million/yr vs 13.6 million/yr in 2001).
The O'Hare Branch is already lopsided, and will probably be okay without the Douglas Branch. Currently the usage of the Douglas Branch is very small. Even I, an El lover, have to wonder how we convinced the Feds to grant us 1/3 of a billion dollars to rebuild a line only 2 1/2 million people a year use. There are single stations on other lines that handle more people than the whole Douglas Branch.
Annual Usage for 2001:
Blue Line O'Hare Branch: 19,274,163 (usage stagnant)
Blue Line Congress Branch: 6,824,958 (usage growing)
Blue Line Douglas Branch: 2,474,666 (usage declining but expected to increase after rehab is complete)
Blue Line Dearborn Subway: 6,911,841 (usage growing)
And who knows what would happen with Phase 3 of the Circle Line. I haven't heard details, but maybe they'd build an interchange where the Circle Line crosses the O'Hare Branch for possible through-routings from Douglas there?
I don't even pretend to begin to understand Chicago, so if this question is mega-dumb...
Didn't the Congress and Douglas branches used to get much further out? Wouldn't a partial or even total reinstatement balance the Blue line's lopsidedness?
Yes, they did used to go further out.
Douglas Branch went as far as Oak Park, and what is now the Congress Branch (it was formerly the Garfield Park Branch) went as far as Westchester until the early-1950s.
After Douglas is rehabbed, if ridership rises as much as the CTA hopes it will (and it probably will), I guess they could consider re-establishing the Douglas Line to Oak Park Ave in Berwyn, seeing as Berwyn is the second-most dense town in America after Somerville, Mass., and should be able to support some rail. The hardest part would be re-aquiring ROWs. There has been some talk of extending the Congress Branch further west, but nothing too serious.
Whether that would really add much ridership is an unknown, but if they each added four stations and did as well as the Green Line in similar suburban areas, it would only add about 2.5 million riders per branch, or 5 million annual riders in total. The Green Line is all grade-seperated along city streets, whereas the Douglas and Congress extensions would be at grade with crossings and in the middle of a multi-lane freeway, respectively, hardly likely to get as much ridership.
"whereas the Douglas and Congress extensions would be at grade with crossings and in the middle of a multi-lane freeway, respectively, hardly likely to get as much ridership. "
Maybe they need to scrap the idea of doing at grade the whole way. How about acquiring the ROW, then doing what they did on Boston's new Orange Line in the 1980's. Put the train in a culvert, then put streets over it as overpasses.
Had we Boston's level of subsidization, there's a lot Chicago could probably do.
Indeed. What you also need is effective representation in Congress - somebody who can accumulate IOUs and then bring the Regional Transportation Authority a load of bacon...
We have decent representation, and get decent capital allocations from the Feds. After all, Dennis Hastert and Henry Hyde are from the Chicago suburbs, we also have Emanuel Rahm and William Lipinski from Chicago proper, all of which have worked together well.
But Chicago can't afford to add track unless they know they can recover 53% of their operating costs from farebox revenue because 53% of the operating budget for the CTA has to come from farebox revenue. I dont' remember exactly what the figure for Boston is, but it's something less than 30%.
Considering all the proposals, it seems obvious that the CTA is intent on divorcing the Douglas "L" from the Congress median and the Dearborn subway. What would be the effect on running time to the Loop via the Lake Street "L" from the Douglas "L"?
I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing the time difference to the first Loop stop would be negligible.
But, it takes about 12 minutes to get around the Loop, and about half that to get through the Dearborn Subway, so to any given stop in the Loop it might take longer on average. But, again, there are more Loop stops than subway stops so you would have more options as to where to be dropped off and it might even out with reduced walking times.
In short, I don't think that will factor much in the final accounting of success or failure.
Thanks for the info.
Wouldn't more frequent service with shorter trains yield approximately the same service level on the Orange line? It seems like the Orange and the Brown are a perfect match right now, before the lengthening project begins.
Incidentally, I find it a little amusing that my home station, a local station, has almost as many annual passengers as the entire Dearborn branch, and the 50th Street and 66th Street stations on the same line, also local stations, have many more. But that's New York vs. Chicago for you.
Here's one of my Chicago shots from Labor Day weekend:
Yeah, Chicago does only have 150 million total El passengers in a year lately, which pales compared to NYC (they carry that many in a month usually, don't they?). According to APTA, Chicago is third in heavy-rail usage after New York and Washington.
Brown and Orange are the two lines most commonly talked about when Line routing changes are talked about. They are also the two "best" lines as far as car quality and HVAC reliability in the summer and cleanliness, by popular consensus.
You may be right about service levels, although the Brown Line seems to have more late riders than the Orange Line. I think the Orange Line is still mostly a commuter line - although that is slowly changing as people move near it expressly to be able to be near the El, as opposed to the natives that pre-date the building of it who had based their lives on cars and busses. It has only been around since 1995 after all.
I thought Chicago Transit Authority ridership was more than that - something around a million riders per day (maybe that includes buses, though).
Yeah, with busses, the average weekday boardings are about 1.4 million, with .46 million from rail and .92 million from busses in 2001.
I know this isn't BusTalk, but the highest-usage CTA bus route carries about 10 million people a year (79th Street bus).
Trivia: The average Saturday boardings for rail are about 1/2 of weekday boardings and for bus about 60% of weekday boardings. The average Sunday boardings are about 1/3 of weekday boardings for rail and about 45% for bus.
How much daily ridership do METRA and the North Shore line to Indiana see?
Interesting that buses carry more people than subways there...
I think you mean the South Shore. :-)
Anyway, Metra statistics for 1997 (confession: I find Metra to be secretive and clubby, and notoriously uncooperative when it comes to regional transit planning).
Annual ridership for all of Metra: 72.3 million
Average weekday ridership: 285,880
Annual South Shore (jointly operated with Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation District): 3,665,000
Busiest line: Union Pacific (goes NW), 23.9 million
Metra carries almost as many passengers at PATH does...
Interesting. I prefer the first scheme myself, probably because it seems less convoluted. Under this scheme, the Douglas branch could presumably be designated the "new" Brown Line, since it would make no sense to have two Blue Lines that have nothing to do with each other.
Of course, if they add any more lines in the future, they'll have to find some other way of designating the various lines. I'd prefer a NYC-style system that uses various letter designations based on specific routings, with main trunk lines grouped by color.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
You couldn't have letter trains in Chicago, because they are all 'L's.
Yeah we have kinda run out of common colors. Not sure Chicago would take well to a "Salmon Line" or a "Goldenrod Line" or a "Taupe Line" ...
If we ever get the Crosstown Line along Cicero, though, we may well have to find new colors or new schemes.
Or maybe they could have the orange-and-blue striped line, the red-and-yellow checkered line, and the purple and green plaid line.
: )
Mark
How about Peach and Mauve, with or without herringbone patterns...
:0)
There's always pink and beige...
Chicago doesn't seem to be in any danger of adding enough new 'L' lines in the near future to run out of colors. Of course, there are people who still, after a decade, find the colors and station name changes confusing (just can't seem to find the Congress line to DesPlaines Ave. any more, now its the Blue line to Forest Park). But then again, having grown up in the Sheepshead Bay section of Brooklyn, it will always be the "Brighton" line to me. God forbid calling it the "Q" or "D" line. (Isn't the "D" line the Culver line anyway, or at least is was for a while?)
-- Ed Sachs
Yes, the D ran on the Culver line in Brooklyn from 1954 until the Chrystie St connection opened in 1967.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-bc-ny--subwayfatal0109jan09,0,1469608.story?coll=ny%2Dnynews%2Dreddots%2Dheadlines
Please don't misunderstand, it's not like I enjoy gloating and bragging, but it's just that sometimes ... oh hell, why beat around the bush, I love gloating and bragging!
- Charles Darwin
of cource, he could've been pushed
Regardless of whetever it was an "accident" or was pushed onto the tracks, why would he be standing so dangerously close to the edge in the first place? You don't stand 15-20 feet from the platform and get pushed like that, you would have to be over the warning strip.
As I can say many times over and over, all it takes in one person to make a dumb, dangerous mistake of looking down at the tracks for an oncoming train to hit you, and disrupt as many at 100,000 to 250,000 customers in the process.
You should stop attributing these quotes to Charles Darwin. Charles Darwin never said anything like "Survival of the fittest." This bending of Darwin's BRILLIANT theory (finally, we were freed from the shackles of the biblical creation myth) is an insult to his BRILLIANCE.
"we were freed from the shackles of the biblical creation myth"
I thought the Raelians just did that.
8-)
Damn bastards. They should all be imprisoned, because if they are allowed to continue, human cloning will end up being banned (it shouldn't).
I was joking, of course.
In this country, anybody can claim whatever they want.
They're not the first charlatans to come along. Years ago, Jeremy Rifkin (a Luddite if there ever was one, and a fraud) claimed tohave cloned a son. Not many people remember that when they go looking at his Foundation for Economic Trends for "information."
All the facts were not in yet so we don't know if he was pushed or if he jumped in front but it's sad when someone gets killed by a train. We'll just have to wait and see what happened.
WHY DOES EVERYONE CARE SO MUCH ABOUT TRAINS?!?!?!?!?!?! LOOK AT PLANES!!!!! YOU PEOPLE DONT EVEN KNOW WHY YOU LIKE TRAINS!!! GET A LIFE!!! WHO CARES ABOUT THE DEEPEST TRAIN STATION?!?!?! GO SEE A MOVIE OR A FOOTBALL GAME AND TRY TO SPEND A WEEK WITHOUT TRAINS AND HANG OUT WITH YOUR FRIENDS (IF YOU HAVE ANY)
IM OUT
Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!!
Oh, the pain....the PAIN! :)
As Kramer from Seinfeld would say
"Oh God Help us!"
wow, life must be tough for you
Perhaps you would like to click onto the Russian Airports thread. The KGB will deal with you, da?
Spanking your monkey is not animal cruelty. Give it a try and leave us 'no-lifes' to our own pleasures.
Look to Train Dude to put sctm in it's place.
Get a F----in life brother, railfanning is a hobby, deal with it. Don't like what we say, OK but don't come back and keep complaining about it. I took a cross-country trip by Amtrak (3 days travel time) from NYC to Oakland and lo and behold, there are some of the most beautiful sights one can see looking out of any window on a train. If you took a plane as you "endorse", what do you see? Clouds and the sky, that's it.
Congratulations. Planning on doing it again soon?
I've been cross country three different ways, and up and down both coasts. Even ended up getting a first date with a cute Superliner attendant. The date went lousy, unfortunately, but the trip wasmagnificent and she did a good job, so I commended her to the crew chief in Los Angeles.
That trip I took was back in 1986, I hope sometime in 2003 (at least before Amtrak goes belly-up, we hope not.) I will be doing it again. This time I will have to carry 50 rolls of film for than many stopovers I can take advantage of. It takes time and money, and with my work schedule, I don't have the time to take such a magnificent excursion.
If I do decide to travel across this great land of freedom and democracy, I will ask our web host David to see if he can accept a station-by-station guid from New York to Oakland or Los Angeles, via. Chicago and the CA Zephyr one way, then up to Seattle and back on the North to NYC.
I'm sure David would be proud to create a section for your tour.
We would like to follow your advice, but you see, the sun is going to go Super-Nova in about 4 billion years and the earth will be fried to an extra-crunchy crisp - so what's the point?
:-)
Fear not. The USAF has funded a research project on how to transport hydrogen to the sun.
"The USAF has funded a research project on how to transport hydrogen to the sun."
Let's hope the EWS isn't responsible for transporting it!
Well, is there a law that says I can't like both?? Nope. I like subway trains AND I like aeroplanes too, so up your nose with a rubber hose, twice as far with a candy bar-to quote a some semi-famous Brooklynites.
'so up your nose with a rubber hose'
LOL, love the "Welcome back, Kotter" reference, great show.
Fred, whose favorite part of "Kotter" was the R-32s on the B passing by New Utrecht HS (aka James Buchanan HS) in the opening credits. :)
And lets not forget the R38 on the B West End during the opening credits of the 1977 movie, Saturday Night Fever.
At which station do you think does John Travolta's character get off the subway at the end of the movie, when the sound-track is playing the Bee-Gees' tune, "How Deep Is Your Love?"
I haven't seen the film in a long time, and really didn't pay attention to that scene at that time. No one tells me the answer yet, I will have to evaluate it first.
In MIB 2, the subway station that the monster "ate" the R32 train and finally came to a grinding halt must be Parsons Blvd on the F, although Will Smith exited the "station" at the 79th St/Museum side of 81st St/Natural history, through the long passageway.
I heard that was at Church Avenue on the F. I thought he came out on the 81st Street side of the station which according to the sign was served by the A and C trains. Also, before you saw the R32, you saw a Redbird go by...
I always remeber the opening credits from "Night Court" from the 80's which shows an R40 slant on the A line pulling through a station. I always was trying to figure out what station it was, but I believe it was Jay Street-Borough Hall.
Why? Is crosstown airline service between Brooklyn and Queens any better than the rail service?
: )
Mark
"Why? Is crosstown airline service between Brooklyn and Queens any better than the rail service?"
The food service is much better, especially in the first class cabin.
:-)
Now your getting there. i would understand if the number 6 train had reclining seats and an entertainment system but as far as i know, i board the train and i hear "bing bong" and its a loud ride on hard seats all the way home. no beer or food. whats the point. and why photograph it??? RON IN BAYSIDE YOU RULE!!!
its not. however the train being faster on certain trips does not make a good reason to be obsessed with it and tell people what you see on the trains. Planes are more efficient. they go farther faster. when the airbus a380 comes out in a few years it will be more fuel efficient then a car. beat that spending god knows how much power running a train
Does this sound familar?
WHY DOES FUZZYWUZZY120 CARE SO MUCH ABOUT PLANES?!?!?!?!?!?! LOOK AT TRAINS!!!!! YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHY YOU LIKE PLANES!!! GET A LIFE!!! WHO CARES ABOUT THE BIGGEST AIRLINER?!?!?! GO SEE A MOVIE OR A FOOTBALL GAME AND TRY TO SPEND A WEEK WITHOUT PLANES AND HANG OUT WITH YOUR FRIENDS (IF YOU HAVE ANY)
IM OUT
"when the airbus a380 comes out in a few years it will be more fuel efficient then a car."
That's actually not saying much.
"beat that spending god knows how much power running a train"
Trains are already much more fuel-efficient than cars, esp. in NY where they carry a lot of people.
Oh boy more froggie POS lovers! So you like the Airtaxi A380 do you? It has occured to you that all that thing will suck fuel like a mother, right? Whatever monstrosity GE/P&W or Rolls Royce cooperations build will drain the tanks in record time. Whats worse, I thought I saw in Air and Space weekly that the FAA is still out on the whole 'Skymall' crap that they were trying to push through, just what we need, several people killed when a falling cash register fell on them at the dutyfree shop during a bout of turbulance.
If you want to argue the economics of the A380 versus a train, the fine, so be it. Figure the A380 is pulled through the sky by 4 30,000 hp engines (and thats low, 70,000lb thrust engines, it's probably more than 50k hp), for a total of 120,000 hp. The number I keep getting for it's capacity is 550 people, ok sounds good for the initial model, after all, you said 'when the airbus a380 comes out in a few years...' did you not? That means that, on a HP/Person basis, this thing exceeds 210 hp for every person on that plane (thats like every person driving around in a Ford Explorer).
An ALP44 with a fully loaded 9 car consist of Comets, each carrying 110 pax, so that's 990 people on that train. Figure the ALP44 is a derivative of the AEM7, which means 7000hp, and you have a Hp/pax ratio of 7 or so hp per person.
Ok, speed counts, so, to get the airtaxi into a slightly more favorable position, figure it's a 475 knot max cruising speed for the A380 (that's consistant with the A330, A340, A310, and A300), that works out to a 545 mph cruising speed. Muliply that by the # pax and then divide the HP by that product. For the A380 that's 120000hp/(550pax*545mph) which comes to an unbelievable .40 hp/(pax*mph). Now figure the ALP pulled njt train only makes an average of 50 mph, that would be 7000hp/(990pax*50mph), that comes out to be .14 hp/(pax*mph), and if that ALP suddenly becomes a metroliner that drops 100 pax due to Amfleet not holding as many as Comets, but speeds up to 80 mph average speed, the rating is now .098, yes, less than .1, 4 times less than that A380.
Now we all know where the ALPs and AEMs get their power from, coal, nuclear and oil fired powerplants with stringent environmental controls, they don't carry their own generators, the generators stay exactly where they should be, fixed firmly to the ground, not needing to be accelerated at all. The A380 sits up above the troposphere, it's engines are basically exposed flames, and must be moved right along with the rest of the airframe, polluting it's heart out at 35000 ft, and using god alone knows how much JP5 per minute.
Of course I realize that the ALP cannot cross oceans, but even the 747-100 is more efficient by this method than the A380. Four 20,000 hp engines (this one I know down pat, the LM2500 is derived from the CF6 used on it, with a rating of 20000hp) means a hp rating of 80000, 400 pax, max economical cruise of 565 mph, means that the 747-100 has a rating of .36 hp/(pax*mph). Looking pretty grim for the A380, eh?
Sure the A380 will use less fuel per passenger than a car, if your idea of a car only includes the GM H2, Yukon XL (Suburban) and the Ford Excursion.
"Whatever monstrosity GE/P&W or Rolls Royce cooperations build will drain the tanks in record time. "
Well, no, that's not true. Check your facts.
In point of fact, GE90s, Pratt and Whitney 4000 series and Rolls Royce Trent engines are now available in a 115,000 pound thrust class, and, for airliner engines, are remarkably efficient. The bypass ratio is very high, and most of the thrust is derived from the bypass air, not the core. The airplane becomes essentially a ducted-fan type of airplane. The largest 777 uses a GE90or Rolls Royce engine, and the engines do not "suck the tanks dry in record time" - just the opposite.
But you have to compare apples to apples. That's why your point about the train's efficiency is well-taken, and I agree with it.
But you're not correct about the A380's efficiency. If anything, it's likely to be more efficient than the 747 by virtue of newer technologies.
Mind if I chime in one more time?
Alright, enough with the numbers, now for story time:
Right now there is an unbelievably interesting thing happening, I wish more people would see it, cause it's pretty entertaining.
40 or so years ago, France and England sunk their collective fortunes into sinking the Boeing 2707, making the Concorde, a dismal economic failure. Boeing responded with the 747, which has been an unrivaled economic sucess, thousands of them are flying all around the world, and they truely brough international flight to all the world.
Now we go to today, Europe is again trying to crush Boeing's sales with their subsidized aircraft manufacturers. The A380 is aimed directly at the 747-400, Boeing has already dropped for the most part the 747X, and has the Sonic Cruiser and an expanded 777 to fall back on. Odd that while the froggies and friends chase down the widebody, Boeing makes for the high speed end of the market. It's the concorde/2707 situation all over again, cept it's the widebodies that are being faught over. I wish Boeing nothing but luck.
Twenty years after the 747/2707 problem in the late 1970s, early 80s, NASA builds the space shuttle, an economic disaster, and scraps their expendible launch capabilities. Launch customers balk at NASA's huge prices and non-exsistant customer service, and look for alternative, the chinese get a few, but those are fouled by talks and agreements and so on. The french see their chance and swoop in under the guise of the "European" Space Agency with their Ariane I, which is cheap, adaptable, and launched from just 10 degrees north the equator. Nasa loses almost all their customers and left with the DoD, not a bad position, but, as a NASA administrator admitted in a Smithsonian Air and Space magazine, "Doing business with the DoD is a lot like sleeping with an elephant, your going to do it their way, and your going to be crushed."
And now, Ariane, who was so set to just sit and let everybody feed it business, is pushing the boundrys. Their Ariane V is surpassed only by the largest launchers deployed by the Americans and Russians. As a status symbol of their progress, it's perfect, showing the world that they are no longer a medium lift commsat launcher, but a world space power, capable of heavy lift jobs. However, it is suffering, the same lesson that NASA learned with the Shuttle, ESA is learning all over again with the Ariene V. They are forcing their customers to bend to their will, to make modifications to their satellites, and it costs nearly double what an American Titan IV runs (those aren't really used for Commsat launches, but it's in the same weight class). In the meantime, NASA has learned from it's shuttle problem and their once grand plans have been dropped, we now fly a wide variety of very adaptable launchers that have begun to take back the market from the french. The french continue to cling to their projections of satellite weight in which the now wasted capacity of the Ariene V (even two full Boeing 702s [yes it can be a french rocket, american satellite combo, or even japanese satellite, american rocket, russian rocket engines. IIRC, most commo sats are american in builder] don't tax the capacity). In fact, only the NSA's monster eavesdroppers like Aquatone, Trumpet and Mercury are about the only things that are really large enough to give this monster a work out, and the NSA is kind of tied to the DoD and NASA's Titan IV / Atlas V for it's Space Launch needs.
So, what have we learned, first that the french will never learn, and second that they always seem to be two steps behind the beat when it comes to most Aerospace and military matters (Maginot Line, need I say more?). They have been bleeding Boeing and America dry with their subsidied "Private Corperations" like Airbus, and it's about time that ESA and Airbus got what's coming to them. Viva the Sonic Cruiser, Viva the Atlas V!
Unfortunately, Boeing has had trouble selling the Sonic Cruiser to airlines. The concept may not see the light of day. The jury is still out.
Airbus is indeed in a position to offer better financing and lower prices than Boeing, and is set up to do so unfairly, to a degree.
However, according to an executive I met who works for one of the systems suppliers who does business with both aircraft makers, Airbus introduced aircraft with genuinely better cabins and cockpits that airlines liked. Boeing responded with the new-generation stuff, the 777, and the advanced design 737, but these were not enough to prevent Airbus from advancing to the point where they are shipping as many airplanes now as Boeing.
Boeing considered selling a 747-500, but nobody wanted it. The Airbus A380 is a "niche" airplane, not a world-beater but there are enough customers to justify a production line.
Boeing's 717 is selling, but only enough to keep a production line open, not enough to rest the company's future on. This was the former MD-95 design inherited from McDonnell-Douglas.
The newest "block-buster" airplane is the C-17 military transport.
Boeing has to redesign its future. It has not had a lot of success showing off a coherent strategy. Top management really needs to take a fresh look at eveything. That includes the military: F-15 production is winding down, and the F-18E/F Super Hornet is the only active fighter project on the books since it lost the JSF contest (it does, however, manufacturer fuselage and wing components for the F-22).
---------------
We've long had an airplane that could have served as a mega-jumbo jet in airline service: It would have been a civilian version of the Lockheed C-5 Galaxy, which flew for the first time in the late 1960's, if I am not mistaken. But not many fields could service it back then, and not many could today. I've seen no evidence anyone except the US Air Force wants it.
In Europe, thev Russians fly two mega-jumbos: the Antonov AN124, roughly equivalent to the C-5, with a slightly higher payload but less range and lower fuel efficiency (it sees freight charters in Germany a lot); and the AN-225 Dream, a six-engined monster which, if fully loaded with cargo, can barely make a 550 mile ferry flight. It can, however, literally hold a building inside of it. Replace the Russian engines with GE-90's or Rolls Royce Trents (115,000 pounds of thrust each), and maybe you have something commercializable. Again, how many airorts could handle it?
I'm sure that Boeing will downsize (throw) it's manufacturing capability away and America is second to none when it comes to corporate welfare. (The euro crowd just demand some say in corporate govrernance, thnat's why they will overtake America)
Isn't it funny this guy tells us to get a life when his "life" is reading message boards with topics he isn't interested in?
WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM? I THINK YOUR HEAD IS A LITTLE FUZZY >:-o! Damn, you need some fun in your life! You know what I think, I THINK YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS! If you don't like this board, then get the fuck out of here that's all, we like talking about trains, transit is our interest and if you don't like it tough then you're in the wrong place & go find a board on aviation. We are friends [online] and we talk to each other here so we're not loners and we *DO* have a life so who are YOU to tell us that we have no life and don't know why we love trains, it looks like you have NEITHER of those things so back off and shut up.
Why does everyone care so much about trains?
Because we are transit buffs, if you don't like it, too f&%#ing bad!!
Look at planes
Maybe most of us here aren't interested in planes you ASS! Hence the name SubTalk!
You people don't even know why you like trains!!
Um, maybe its something called an interest/hobby. Its no different from liking cars, trucks or even boats.
Get a life
Um, most of us here have a life. Is it a crime to have an interest for trains?
Who cares about the deepest station?!?!
Some of us here do.
Go see a movie or a football game and try to spend a week without trains and hang out with you're friends(if you have any)
Some of us here do that stuff, but you're telling us we are guilty and we have no life just because we like trains a lot? You don't f&%#ing know us! You act like we think about trains 24/7, and nothing else. So do me a favor and stop talking out of your ass!
Thank you
Listen, you. I got friends in low places.
Wait 'till you get me started on sailboats. Talk about fuel efficiency. Talk about being ready to board an hour before takeoff.
Hey, do you mind if I forward your post to Asnem, the worldwide society for people with low IQs?
You're a shoo-in for membership!
Where are you getting this from? In case you haven't noticed, you don't have to care why these people like trains a lot (rail/transitbuffs). Possibly YOU could takeoff to an airplaneBuff website and post there instead. Nobody here, or anywhere forces you to do anything, and besides, ALL transportation systems and equipment, (and everything in the world for that matter) has some positive aspects and negative aspects. OF COURSE, our technology today has flaws, hence coming from the "the invention of a 100% efficient machine is not possible as of today" (nicknamed the perpetual motion machine) statement found in my science textbook last year, I can point out as many negative aspects of airplanes as you may do trains, and cars, but deal with it. Railfanning is a hobby, and you don't need to start a problem with those who enjoy time doing stuff with them. You can ingratiate yourself with your fellow airplaneBuffs, but don't go rallying it off here.
And being Railbuffs or transitBuffs for that matter, does NOT mean we don't have a life. Sure. Sometimes work does get a lot and I have only weekends to visit this board, but the interest is still with me.
Anyone can control his/her time in spending what s/he wants to do in life. A transitbuff can spend a week without trains, for any reason, but there comes a time when interest has an opportunity to spark once in a while, hence, a week does not go by without trains.
It's actually a pity that women bear primary responsibility for child-rearing in our society. I suppose that's inevitable from a biological and evolutionary standpoint, but that doesn't make the situation any better.
Consider baby strollers and subway stairs. While men are less likely to push strollers than are women, given the aforementioned gender roles, on occasion men can be seen with strollers. A man with a small child in a stroller approaches the stairs when entering or leaving a subway station. He will turn the stroller sideways in front of him, pick it up, and carry it up or down the stairs. This is a quick process that does not impede the flow of traffic on the stairs, requires no assistance from other persons, and does not create a safety hazard.
Now consider the (much more likely) scenario of a woman with a stroller. When confronted with the subway stairs, she will not carry the stroller in the male fashion. Instead, she will just stand there like a statue until another person, usually another woman, comes to her aid. Mom then will hold the stroller by its handle while the other woman grasps its front edge. The two women will proceed slowly and awkwardly up or down the steps, like movers carrying a sofa, a time-consuming process that blocks the stairway to other users.
So yes, men and women do act differently in this situation, and at the risk of sounding chauvinistic I'd have to say that the male method is far superior.
Either is dangerous to the parent's back (not to mention the child) and is a good example of how everybody came out ahead from the ADA. When Joe Bruno builds the full subway system in Schenectady, there will be an elevator at every platform.
I suppose that's inevitable from a biological and evolutionary standpoint, but that doesn't make the situation any better.
Actually, when it comes to seahorses, it's the male that gets pregnant and gives birth. The roles are reversed.
That is interesting.
Well, we aren't talking seahorses, are we? :-)
Hey Rob, did you remember to send my warmest regards to my buddies Saxby and Sonnie? Great guys, huh?
Hey, if seahorses start to ride the subway, we have to be ready for them.
I always offer to help, but last time I did (while I was going down, and she was going up, no less) the woman did the man thing.
I've also seen the hand-truck pull, bumpy ride, one step at a time.
-Hank
I always offer to help, but last time I did (while I was going down, and she was going up, no less) the woman did the man thing.
She must've been a follower of Mistress Krista.
I've also seen the hand-truck pull, bumpy ride, one step at a time.
Oh yes, I've seen that too. It strikes me as being thisclose to child abuse.
Chicago transit recently re-allowed baby strollers on the El. Apparently they'd been banned for a while, although I never saw anyone enforce a ban - I don't think most CTA workers are THAT cold-hearted.
I've helped a few women (and men, too) carry strollers up or down stairways.
But I agree - this is one way the ADA can help everyone, even though I've never seen a stroller use one of the elevators. Chicago has two lines that are almost completely accessible (Orange and Green), and the Brown Line will become accessible during its capacity expansion, and every line is at least partly accessible.
B"H
uuhmmmm...women generally aren't quite as strong as men (physically), and some of those strollers are like SUV's...
No-one forced them to buy a stroller heavy enough to sink a small aircraft carrier.
Maybe they had a simple umbrella stroller and found it too fragile.
I think the philosophy is, it can take a direct hit from another heavy stroller and survive. This is the twenty-first century, after all.
Three thoughts come immediately to mind:
1) Clint Eastwood in The Enforcer, "If a woman wants to play lumberjack, she better be able to handle her end of the log!"
2) Women were required to remove children from strollers on the subways until Ruth Messinger fought to make it less safe for the children.
3) One female train operator on the D train wears a shirt proclaiming herself as a "Motorette" - after the TA went through the trouble & expense to rid itself of sexist titles.
You can tell that TA management didn't do Greek at school. Then they would have been able to tell the feminist prats that "man" in motorman was "man" as in anthropos, not aner. If feminists wish to declare themselves not to be anthropoi, that's good: it makes them aliens or animals or something and consequently unable to vote. So hah!
Please send my regards to the "Motorette" on the D train. Glad to know there's still people with a sense of humor. :)
I would reply to your post but I'm too bored with it...
:0)
Ron? Is someone posting under your handle? Or has the change of scenery made you warmer?
Actually, this afternoon I saw a woman WHEEL her stroller down the stairs a step at a time.
David
I'm 5'2" and 108 lbs. When I had my son in a stroller on the subway staircases - usually taking him to a Dr. or to Grandma's,
from Brooklyn to Manhattan, it was hard!! After he got over 20 lbs,
but before he could walk, the weight of him, the stroller, and the
diaper bag was way too much. But walking with him in a Snugli with
diaper bags was back-breaking. I used to pray for a helpful person to notice our plight. Sometimes I'd be halfway up, and with my full concentration on the effort, suddenly feel my load lightened as someone had just grabbed an end to help with the lifting.
My husband - who's 6', 200 lbs - could have done it more easily, but he wouldn't take off from work to do it, and would have spent money for a taxi.
(I carry around my samples in a roller-bag now, which I can handle,
no matter how full it is. It's not as bulky as a kid in a stroller.
But people often offer to help. Those offers are not accepted, but really appreciated as moments many think never happen in NYC.)
Just 10 minutes ago, I drove by the 207th Yard on the Deegan. In the river was a barge packed with about 30 dead redbirds, being maneuvered by 3 tugboats. It had probably just been loaded and is about to leave for their final resting place.
The barge been ready since Tuesday.
Where are the 'birds being dumped now? Last time it was off the coast of Delaware, dunno if that's still the case.
I had some business to take care of on Worth Street before so I thought I'd check out the progress of the rerouting work at Canal Street on the J/M/Z.
This is what I saw:
The niches are still covered with wood, blocking the view into the closed platform. From the unique, larger openings I saw that the "express" trackway of the closed side has been covered with a concrete work platform. I couldn't tell whether the trackway itself was filled in with concrete or whether the platform was being supported by something. There was a lot of work going on while I was there. There was a wooden wall erected along the far side of the concrete platform with hinged wooden doors opening onto what remains of the closed platform. One of those doors was open and I swiped a glance at the platform beyond. All I saw was a lot of pipes and equipment but the wall tile is still up. I also heard a lot of heavy machinery being used on the closed side.
I also saw that a temporary track has been connected from the northbound tracks coming from Chambers Street station into the former southbound "express" trackway on the open platform. I say "temporary" because the rails are rusty and worn-looking and are supported by wooden blocks. There was no third rail as far as I could tell. The temporary tracks ran from the tunnel into the station. Clearly, the track connection has been established.
That doesn't sound like a temporary track -- that sounds like the permanent track, not yet ready for use.
Such a rusty track? It looks ancient.
It's probably permanant. Tracks are always "rusty" when they first place them. They only get shiny after trains keep rolling over them which obviously hasn't happened yet.
Sorry, typo -- "permanent"
it's probably skeletized new track. they put in new track south from bowery all the way into the canal st. stop. not sure if they filled it in yet, but by the sounds of it, tha new track may be ready pretty soon. probably still needs signals and the like go in though. i'd say at least 3 months before it is ready to go...
Its gonna be weird seeing trains using that trackway AND heading in the "wrong direction." But I think its a positive development; it'll make Bowery and Canal less gloomy places to be.
Yes, it will improve the whole atmosphere of both stations.
We better get our photos of the two Queens Bound Platforms now, one day we will only be able to hope for a Transit Museum tour. Well Bowery's platforms look almost the same, but no more mint green columns at Canal.....
I got my pics already.
"Its gonna be weird seeing trains using that trackway AND heading in the "wrong direction."
It's going to be even stranger riding from Chambers St. and wind up on the old southbound stub track at Canal St.
Bill "Newkirk"
The northbound "express" trackway hasn't been filled with concrete. It's only covered by a wooden plank.
Wood? Look through the "window":
Doesn't look like wood to me.
(That photo is from November. By now it's been covered in concrete.)
You can't even see that now. They've put up a concrete block wall across the trackway.
The trackway under that is not conpletely filled in with concrete. They put in little concrete "walls" to support the new floor, then placed corrugated metal and a net of green steel rods over that, and that is what they poured concrete on.
From what I saw, from the northern end of the NB Canal St platform, they've only covered the niches with concrete blocks. The trackway itself is still there, at least for now. The only difference is the concrete wall at the southern end of the trackway.
I was there at Canal St. yesterday. I looked at that mysterious opening in the wall, the one we've talked about. It seems on the other side, a concrete floor at platform level was constructed and cinder block walls were erected making this some sort of storage room. In order to remove the wall for the new northbound track, there may have been some sort of electrical room that stood in the way. Perhaps this new storage room will be the new electrical aparatus room.
I did notice something unusual on the north end of the rehabbed platform. There are 5 tiled columns and 5 bare steel columns opposite them. You figure they would have tiled the bare steel columns to match the other side. Once again, the BMT is full of mysteries and this is just one of them.
Bill "Newkirk"
I did notice something unusual on the north end of the rehabbed platform. There are 5 tiled columns and 5 bare steel columns opposite them. You figure they would have tiled the bare steel columns to match the other side. Once again, the BMT is full of mysteries and this is just one of them.
At some point, Canal Street was extended north. This may be the reason for your observation. The north end where those bare columns are was probably in the tunnel when the line was new. You can tell where the extension starts by where the mosaics end, and it's plain white tile instead. The extension is very old, because the white tiles match perfectly, and are old (I haven't been on the north end of the renovated platform lately, so I don't remember if they "filled in" the mosaics when they did the renovation a few years ago. But I know this is still evident on the Queens Platform's north end, I was there about a month ago).
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0109-03.htm
them wacky brits...
I hope EWS (a company with American origins) fires their asses immediately. That sort of behavior is totall unacceptable and would last about 30 seconds in this country. Sheesh, you'd think they'd be able to find a relief crew.
Or at worst, management will have to drive the train, with a military escort.
I'm not familiar with British law on the subject; unions in Europe generally have a lot more power than they do here. And there is no union here which would support a CSX, Norfolk Southern or BNSF crew stupid enough to pull that kind of stunt.
unions in Europe generally have a lot more power than they do here.
Britain is as ever somewhere in between. Union power got as bad as anywhere in Europe in the 1970s but in the 1980s it was well and truly beaten down. Unfortunately we now have a Labour government again and the unions are beginning to get restless...
Reminds me of the Belgian train crew during World War II that was assigned by the Germans to haul prisoners (I don't remember if they were POWs or civilians destined for concentration camps) east. The train crew pretended to act incompetent, slowing the train to a crawl. The train was stalled long enough that the advancing Allied armies reached the train and freed its prisoners before it could reach its final destination.
I don't remember all the details but The History Channel aired a one-hour documentary on the story.
Mark
I think your comparison is a complete perversion of reason.
I don't know that he was comparing motivations and justifications - just reporting the act itself.
Obviously, we would consde that Belgian crew to be heroic.
I hope he was comparing justifications, because such a comparison would be most appropriate.
An act opposing this impending slaughter by the world's bullying superpower and its flunkies is, morally, completely sound.
Bravo to these heroic guys.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Ah, I see! So you feel that there's a moral equivalent between a heroic act to keep people form being transported to concentration camps and act that will help keep one of the world's greatest despots in power? Can I assume you applaud his on-going public acts of beheading women for speaking out? You need a minor morality tune-up!
It is possible to despise Saddam and yet oppose deposing him.
If his brutality were a reason for deposing him, then why didn't the US depose the military leaders of Rwanda who were guilty of even worse (sad to say) brutality?
Lest we morph to Politico-talk I suppose one could find some merit in your argument. However, Saddam is not only a homocidal maniac (who's even brutally murdered his sons in law) but his quest for nuclear, biological and chemical weapons, coupled with his demonstrated willingness to use them, make him a threat to world peace. I doubt the thugs in Rwanda can be seen in the same light.
I don't think you need to worry too much about Iraq developing and using nuclear weapons. Historically, the only country that has a record for doing that is the United States.
-Robert King
Israel very nearly used its nuclear bombs, mounted under the wings of F-4 Phantoms, in 1973 when it looked like Syria might break through Israeli defenses at the Golan Heights. But the tide turned, fortunately.
I didn't think Israel devoloped nukes until sometimes after 1982/3.
Israel had "dumb nukes" (gravity weapons similar to the American B-61) by 1973. Theyonly had a few of them, probably less than half a dozen.
Today it's a given that they have an MRBM capability (Medium Range Ballistic Missile) which can be placed on a hair-trigger alert status.
"Today it's a given that they have an MRBM capability (Medium Range Ballistic Missile) which can be placed on a hair-trigger alert status."
The silos were opened twice during Desert Storm right when our birds flew overhead, as a warning to pass along to Iraq through intermediaries that if WMD were used against Israel, she had the capability of responding with much more powerful weaponry.
Yes, true.
At the end of the Yom Kippur war in 1973, as Israeli forces approached Damascus, the Ruussians threatened to intervene directly with tactical air forces and parachute divisions. The US did not want the conflict to escalate and pressured the Israelis to accept a ceasefire.
At this point the Israelis understood that there was a possibility they could go too far. Threatening the Arabs with WMD when Irael itself was in danger was one thing; conventional war with very large Russian forces would cause heavy Israeli casualties and the Israelis were in no position to threaten the Russians with WMD. So a ceasefire was arranged, and it was Israel's turn to withdraw from Syria (except that the Golan Heights were retained).
Funny story that. Nothing about it on the news here.
Simon
Swindon UK
Watch the opening scene of "The Sum of All Fears"
Yes and leave us not forget why. The japanese were not conducting sightseeing flights over Hawaii on December 7, 1941. Leave us not forget about the death march and the attrocities committed by the japanese during WWII. Also, despite what the historical revisionists would have us believe, the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved more lives (by a factor of 10 or more)than were lost in both bombings. Besides, you can't argue with success.
There was one more approved use for the a-bomb immediately after the end of WWII.
In 1946, Harry Truman told Josef Stalin that, unless Soviet troops withdrew immediately from Iran (and its oil wells), the US would drop atom bombs on the Russsian armies. According to some historians, the US did not have a bomb available then (we used up the only two we had bombing Japan), but the Russians didn't know that, and believed Truman, and withdrew.
I've heard that before but I don't believe that the threat was ever actually confirmed. Actually, more recently, Kennedy was perfectly prepared to engage in a nuclear war with the Soviet Union because of the Cuban Missle Incident. Fortunately, Khruschev blinked.
>>> Kennedy was perfectly prepared to engage in a nuclear war with the Soviet Union because of the Cuban Missle Incident <<<
Talk about revisionist history. Kennedy was not "perfectly willing" to go to war with the Soviets, and committed the United States to not invading Cuba and withdrawing missiles from Turkey to avoid such a war.
Tom
Yes and leave us not forget why. The japanese were not conducting sightseeing flights over Hawaii on December 7, 1941. Leave us not forget about the death march and the attrocities committed by the japanese during WWII. Also, despite what the historical revisionists would have us believe, the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved more lives (by a factor of 10 or more)than were lost in both bombings. Besides, you can't argue with success.
Now as long as you mentioned it - if WWII Imperial Japan were as technologically advanced as post-WWII Japan became, and they developed a nuclear capability before the US did, do you think they would have resisted using it on humanitarian grounds? If so, I have a bridge for sale.
If you think you can relate the political realities of the world in in the 1940's to today's world - you may be a hopelessly liberal dumocrat.
I only wrote that the United States is the only country to have used nuclear weapons. Read my posting again if you have to. Anything you see beyond that is an invention of yours and I don't want to be dragged into it.
-Robert King
Have you met the guy? Are you a licensed psychologist capable of making such a judgement in person, let alone from the twenty second video clips that the media shows us.
I do remember a time when we were detonating all sorts of fun stuff, well on our way to irradiating the western pacific. We cultivated bacteria, we create chemicals so noxious they make the stuff that Saddam has look like vinegar. Hanford, Rocky Mountain Arsenal and the Nevada Test Site are the remains of that age. You do realize that our first thermonuclear blast, Ivy Mike, spiraled out of control to 11.5 Megatonsn more than double what we thought it should be. We fried some nearby japanese fishermen, whom we had assured would be out of the blast radius, and yet they did not sue, they went along with our cover up. Do you know what that bomb did to that tiny island eniwetok? It vaporized it, quite literally the entire island was left a crater, filled in by the pacific, tiny bits of that sand and stuff were raised to over 50000 ft by the resulting convection cloud (mushroom cloud), and there, covered with the plutonium from the primary and uranium from the tamper, it drifted down to earth as fallout. Every man woman and child on this planet has a higher than usual amount of plutonium 241 and uranium 235 on them from the nuclear testing, both above and below ground thanks to the cold war.
And thanks to americas need to shove it's "Family Values" on the world, if some politico could have just made the leap of imagination necessary at the end of WWII, 45 years of hair trigger nuclear madness could have been avoided. Instead we chose to push our agenda on the "uncivilized" world at large, bareing our teeth at our one time allies and the only other world power left at that point, and going head to head with them. It's about friggin time that we stop trying to cure the world of 'Dictators' and focus on the US for once, it's screwwed up, and right now nobody's paying it any attention. Keeping the sea lanes open and protecting americans abroad is one thing, but to try to change or topple sovereign governments on a whim is not why america has such a military, and to do so for political gains (as a current president is clearly doing), is unacceptable, dishonorable, and should be worthy of impeachment.
I'm really impressed. You've obviously read your weekly readers. Now explain how, if we do as you say, it will prevent rogue nations like North Korea and Iraq from getting and using nuclear weapons. The trouble with childish people like you is that you think that you are the norm and therefore you exepect everyone to think and act the way you would. I got news for you - you're wrong. And you can use 50 year old history to support your limp-wristed arguments all you want because you are in the mnority.
Unfortunately, every time we turn over a rock, out comes one of you apologists for despots and dictators. If we didn't do this or we didn't do that then they would be kinder and gentler. Well I got news for you and I got news for Patty Murray (The left coast moron who thinks Osama bin Laden was a great man) Hitler attacked the free world - not the other way around. Japan attacked the free world, not the other way around. You sound like another of history's assholes - Neville Chamberlain - of "Peace in our time" fame. He, too, said leave hitler alone, and he'll come to see things the allies way. Well he was wrong and so are you - niavely so.
And to answer your idiotic question - no I have not met him. Unfortunately there are the heads of thousands of his own citizens in the streets of Baghdad that never met him either. There thousands of dead Kurds that never met him either. If you think he's simply mis-understood - then I'm afraid that you are more than niave.
Ivy Mike didn't spiral out of control, Castle Bravo did, to 15 megatonnes. It was the largest device we ever tested. The problem was with the new dry lithium-deuturide they were using and they forgot to calculate some property of the lithium that increased the yield.
Thanks for the correction, I guess I should go read Red Sun again.
Start with the cover, it's called "Dark Sun". Not your day I guess. :)
Gimme a break, drexel is draining me, I've only been back one week and already I'm going slightly nuts.
Either it's a good day at school, or it's a good day on subtalk and at home, today was a fairly good day at school (mostly due to a mere 3 straight hours of classes). Thanks again, I'm off to the library to get that book again.
OK, I have to concede that one can oppose deposing Saddam and be against any war in Irag. People are allowed to have their views. That being said, what those train engineers are doing in Britain is downright TRAITOROUS!!! PERIOD!!!
Amen!
I'll second that Amen!!
You are making the assumption that an immediate attack is the only way to remove him from power. Many people are of the mind that violence is not the only option in this situation. The only things that are clear to me is that nothing is clear in current crisis and that if we do the wrong thing our country especially stands a lot to loose. Bush's single minded march to war is stupid at best and reckless at worst. His quest to avenge his father and his father's mistakes has the strong possibility of seriously fucking things up for this country for years to come.
We've blown our chance to remove Saddam at least twice in the past and now the military option might be forever lost to us. Did it ever occur to us that Saddam's best move right not is to maybe NOT have any weapons of mass destruction? Not only does he not come off as a super villian, but he gets to make our country look like a war mongering bully. At that point the terrorist recruiting centers will have to beat back the voulenteers with a stick.
Absolutely correct, mike. However, there are people who have far more information than either of us have regarding Saddam. I choose to trust their judgement. Alas, I heard former president, clinton, not long ago on Letterman. He clearly agreed that the current administration has no choice other than to strile militarilly. He went on to say the battle would last just a matter of weeks. I think that if you study the 'body language ' of some of our more tentative allies like the french, even they are beginning to believe that the military option is virtually the only viable course of action.
I think that if you study the 'body language ' of some of our more tentative allies like the french, even they are beginning to believe that the military option is virtually the only viable course of action.
Hi train dude, welcome to the world, gotta remember to get you your first present this time next year.
WERE YOU BORN YESTERDAY?! No kidding the french and other allies of our crusade are starting to thing war is the only solution, we've pushed saddam into such a tight corner that the only option either one of us has is to attack. This is like some Doomsday scenario that the russians used to lay out. The americans start hounding the USSR about some minor thing, usually for political gain, the USSR gets slightly PO'd that the American's won't drop it. But the US keeps hounding and it all ends with the soviets either pushing the big red retaliation button, launching a premtive strike, or hustling the command staff off to bunkers in the middle of russia while pushing the big red retaliation button.
Hi train dude, welcome to the world, gotta remember to get you your first present this time next year.
I thought that people usually GIVE presents for people on their first birthdays. Wouldn't you rather receive presents for that occassion?
Saddam is a menace, if he isn't developing weapons now, he will develop them later. He will develop WMD in heaven.
He needs to be removed, any war that would lead to his removal would be a simple war with little casualties for the US side. This is far different from a doomsday scenario involving war with Russia, which was on an equivalent level with the United States. There is NO comparison.
Pigs, You are totally correct on all but one point THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL THAT SADDAM IS GOING TO HEAVEN.
Actually, he doesn't, but he has a homosexual affair with the devil, which leads the devil to expel him to heaven.
LOL!
Hey, I'm dead serious!
President Bush addressed the United Nations about the matter, urging them to adopt a measure to allow the US to bomb heaven to stop Saddam.
This happened a few months ago when some kids from Colorado decided to build a ladder to heaven.
Where were you when they built the ladder to heaven? Did it make you feel like crying, or did you think it was kind of gay? Well I, for one, believe in the ladder to heaven. Oh yeah yeah yeah. 9-11, I said 9-11, 9-11, 9-11, Ni-ne, Nine-Eleven.
Heaven is composed entirely of Mormons. For Saddam (or anyone else) that IS hell.
I hope that was a typo, capitalizing saddam and not capitalizing Clinton.
It definitely was. I didn't intend to capitalize saddam.
To trust their judgement would be a serious error. Never before have our national leaders had such a personal stake in a possible war. Bush is out to finish the work of his father. The Vice President in charge of Oil Exploration can't wait to get his dirty little mits on Iraqui oil and both of them desperately need something to distract the American people from the fact that the economy is rapidly going down the shitter. Oh, it also helps to have an actual war to justify the suspension of civil liberities.
With all the critisism that Bush is getting domestically and from every corner of the globe you can damn well be sure that if he had rock solid evidence of Saddam's weapons that he'd be parading them before the TV news cameras 24/7.
This Iraq thing is just begging for a more creative solution than an outright invasion. Bush's public actions regarding Iraq makes ot easy for me to see why so many people hate our country. Well that's what we get when we elect a being incapable of higher thought to the presidency.
There was a story in yesterday's Newsday about DoD staffers like Paul Wolfowitz who argue in favor of occupying oil facilities and using the oil and its revenue for US purposes.
There was very little in the way of wanton slaughter in the Gulf War of 1991, and there will be even less of it now.
If there is a slaughter, it will be Saddam slaughtering Kurds and Shiites when they try to take advantage of his weakness.
When we wage war these days, we really do limit the immediate r the most part, to just the bad guys. Unfortunately, the bad guys then choose to visit it on everybody else.
I think the decision to go to war would be controversial and fraught with risk on a strategic scale, but these train fools (I mean, engineers) are no heroes. They're just idiots.
Maybe the United States can use this as an opportunity to take back it's rightful place as HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION OF THE WORLD
Not too surprising. I was in England over the holidays and there is a substantial anti-war sentiment, directed both at the US and Tony Blair, for being “Bush’s Rah-Rah man.”
For some other perspectives, I would commend to you The Economist, for a global, relatively unbiased view.
John
Hah! The Economist is somewhat right-wing. I nearly laughed the time the girl in WH Smith called it "the E-communist". For global it's good, unbiased not in a million years.
Most of the British press is biased:
LEFTIES:
The Independent (aka the Indescribably Boring, the Indie) - boringly left wing and middle class, wants to legalise cannabis
The Guardian (aka the Grauniad - after their legendary proof-reading) - left wing, pretending to be middle class, but mainly just socialistic
The Daily Mirror (aka the Daily Moron) - left wing and not even trying to be middle class
Morning Star, The Socialist Worker - insider newspapers of communist splinter groups
The New Statesman - the Guardian in periodical format, with decent proof-reading, quite boring
RIGHTIES:
The Daily Telegraph (aka the Daily Torygraph) - upper middle class, more moderate than it's given credit for
The Economist - very right wing, very monetarist
The Sun - right wing and working class, sink the Belgrano, nuke Zimbabwe, and big hooters on page 3
The Mail - right wing and working class, but sadly serious and no scantily clad ladies
JUST ABOUT CENTRIST:
The Times - upper middle class, arch-rival of the Torygraph
Private Eye - a fortnightly satirical magazine
The Daily Sport - has virtually no news content, and scarcely any sport for that matter; the ladies look nice though and they're not just on page 3!
Ah! Bias is in the eye of the beholder! The Economist has a definite bias in terms of what makes Economic sense (There’s a Duh! in there somewhere).
I would have put The Times into your “righties” column, and Lord Gnome’s rag into the “lefties” personally, though I haven’t read Private Eye for years–not generaly available in the United States. Also the Telegraph I would put into the “right-of-righties”–more Norman Tebbit than Ian Duncan Smith.
I read the Guardian’s web page. Either they completely replaced their proof-readers, or modern technology has saved it! How is the print edition these days?
John
How is the print edition these days?
Sadly, they tend to get it right these days from what I've seen - I tend to read the Times or the Torygraph. It really reads way too much like the Indescribably Boring (The wonders of modern technology...), but without the pot, more's the pity. I've just flicked through the last three Eyes and couldn't find a mention, but when they do get mentioned it usually is a good laugh!
There was however a pisstake of an ad for "the Bible Code", with a passage from the Bible with the following letters circled: t, h, e, d, a, i, l, y, m, a, i, l, i, s, p, i, s, s, p, o, o, r.
Oh and a cartoon in the current edition of a grave reading: Lord Jenkins of Hillhead - WIP!!!
Lord Gnome’s rag into the “lefties” personally
Hmmm... I'd say it was quite a tory mag, but definitely not Thatcherite. I suppose I should've created a heading "Wet but Funny".
I haven’t read Private Eye for years–not generaly available in the United States.
You can get a subscription - it costs Ł35 a year internationally. You can either write to "Private Eye Subscriptions/Sales, PO Box 326, Sittingbourne, Kent ME9 8FA, England" enclosing a cheque made payable to "Private Eye" or Mastercard/Visa details, or by phone +44 1795 414 871, or by fax +44 1795 414 555, or I think it's possible online at www.private-eye.co.uk
You can then write a letter to "Private Eye Editorial, 6, Carlisle St, London W1D 3BN" saying you are outraged at something-or-other and threatening to cancel your subscription ;-)
PS the column Signal Failures is still running... (so this is kinda on-topic)
EWS (English Welsh & Scottish Railways) whose two traincrew members based at Motherwell depot refused to move the said trains (two trains in total) need to be careful. I understand that the drivers trade union ASLEF are now involved with this matter.Plenty of other operators able to do the move,
DRS (carlisle based)
Freightliner heavy haul
GB Railfreight (GBRF)
.
The days of EWS having a 'monopoly' are well over........
Rob
I'm not surprised. War with Iraq is generally seen as pointless over here and is immensely unpopular. Plus it's practically impossible to fire someone here without them claiming Unfair Dismissal, Constructive Dismissal or that their Human Rights have been violated. Remember this is the country where the Fire Brigade keep holding strikes to try and get a 40% pay rise.
LOL, if you ever read Hot Times you'll know that failing to obey an order from a company official is grounds for displinary action, even if the official tells you to crash a train or something else stupid.
I suppose Britain isn't officially at war, but in wartime that kind of action is generally called treason.
And in World War II conscientous objectors went to jail. Of course that was in the U.S., Did they go to gaol in Britain? :(
Britain was being bombed nightly by the Luftwaffe. Objectors were undoubtedly dealt with by the criminal justice system.
No, C.O.'s in WW2 did not all go to correctional facilities. Real C.O. who objected on valid religious grounds (one gave a talk at my school) were usually given some form of alternative service that would as or more unpleasant than being in the army.
I think that the British Government should deal with this problem. Although I dislike bu$h. I support our troops and pray that sad damn and ALL other terrorists are destroyed as soon as possible with as few US casualities as possible. sadd damn tried to KILL a former US President. that president's relationship to the current holder of that office is irrelevant, sad damn MUST DIE and whether bu$h or some Democrat gives the order does not matter. GOD SPEED TO OUR TROOPS. Tony Blair (no relation to me) is a good labor PM who knows this and as for that EWS crew, as events unfold, they will be shown the error of their ways.
These people don't sound like the English who bravely held the Germans at bay.
They sound like cowardly frogs.
Captial Area Transit's website includes pages pertaining to the Modern Transit Partnership, a non-profit organization [yet still affiliated with the local (bus) transit agency] promoting Commuter Rail between Carlisle (through Harrisburg) and Lancaster, PA, called Corridor One. Funding has been approved for Transitional Analysis, but they are behind schedule, not yet having begun the Preliminary Enginerring Study, which was slated for the end of last year. Likely the economy will delay the planned 2005 start of operations.
Also see Herb Field's column in the Patriot-News, New York to Harrisburg, about his trip on a charter sponsored by the organization, which he took from Harrisburg to New York, and his subsequent "7-hour nightmare" return on Amtrak.
I'm a bit concerned that some of you here at SubTalk/BusTalk may not know how to pronounce the handle of the guy formerly known as ckd2784. Basically it's "New Look Terrapin". "New Look" comes from the fact that I love these types of buses, and Terrapin comes from the mascot of the University I attend. I spelled my handle in the "L33t Sp34k" method (Leet Speak method). It's basically a language used by hackers and video gamers where numbers and symbols replace letters of the alphabet. Like SubTalk might become 5u|374L|< and Times Square might become 7!m35 5qu4|23. But then again I do not think many ppl here cares much about L33t Sp34k.
Okay cool, now it even makes sense now that I know how to say it!
I'm familiar with l337 sp3ak, but I'm more curious about why you chose to use it here.
Just felt like it. No big reason for it.
atsway eryvay interestingway!
I have not had a decent night's sleep, since I've tossed and turned wondering and worrying about your handle. What a revelation. Have it engraved on stone tablets for the edification of future generations.
Not to be an asshole, but im just curious as to whether you were being sarcastic. Please don't view this reply as some sort of attack. I'm just curious b/c it seems borderline sarcastic to me.
I think Microsoft gave me something that looked just about like that for a product registration code on Office 2000 one time. :-)
Ah, stupid. Got it.
-Hank
Now that was just mean.
But true and straight to the point.
-Hank
"But then again I do not think many ppl here cares much about L33t Sp34k."
Put me in the category.
*sniff*
D00d, your handle & spelling really make me shed a tear of nostalgia for B1ff and the long past, good old days of usenet . . . .
*sob*
Actually,
"L33t Sp34k" is NOT used by hackers, it's used by "script kiddies" who are wanna-be crackers ("black hat" hackers) and is usually looked down upon by hackers & crackers alike.
dfh894 rjklrj9- 5lk58l fjlgj590 fjgjgop- 0590= kllkhlk 5fgjklkl;fd 40-orj 0-95lkl5kg. 98904-8jkjl kdfjklf9 jkjklf934 jkljfj jg34:
jkflgkl ur390344
kdf cvv, djfur, djsfhui59!!
dklf0- 408kj 3k0394
And that is all I have to say about the matter!
--Mark
He he, lol!
I know all about it. It's used to much these days online. I wish it just stayed with the hackers. 1 M34NM, h0w 4NN0Y1N6 15 Th15? :)
They want to institute bus to rail transfers with SmarTrip only, among other things. The only problem I see is making base fare 1.30, 1.25 would be much more convienent.
For immediate release:
January 9, 2003
Metro's Board considers a menu of fare options aimed at raising $24 Million in revenues
At today's meeting of the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (Metro) Board of Directors' Budget Committee, Metro's staff presented a menu of targeted fare increases and parking fee strategies designed to meet Metro's operating budget revenue requirements for fiscal year 2004, which begins on July 1, 2003.
"We proposed a menu of fare options for Metrorail, Metrobus, and MetroAccess," said Rick Stevens, Director of Business Planning and Development. "Other options include a market-based pricing structure for daily and reserved parking at Metro stations, and promoting the use of the highly popular SmarTrip card by eliminating underutilized Metro passes and taking advantage of the incentives of the transit benefits program. Today's fare and parking fee options are designed to also minimize ridership losses, while at the same time maximizing passenger revenues."
Some of the specific changes proposed today include increasing the Metrorail peak boarding charge by up to $0.30 (from $1.10 up to $1.40); increasing the maximum peak Metrorail fare up to $0.60; increasing the off-peak Metrorail fare up to $0.30; increasing the Metrobus boarding charge by as much as $0.20 (from $1.10 up to $1.30) all day; increasing the daily parking rate by $0.25 to $1, and the monthly reserved parking rate by $30; and modifying MetroAccess fares from $2.20 to double the fastest equivalent bus and/or rail fare.
"Today's proposals represents a measured balanced approach," said Mr. Stevens. "Many other transit agencies are proposing fare increases in these challenging economic times. What's important to note, however, is that we are not proposing any service reductions, as ridership for all services continues to run slightly above last year."
Last month, Metro's CEO Richard A. White announced that the region's transit system is facing a $48 million budget shortfall for FY 2004. To balance the upcoming budget, Mr. White announced plans to reduce expenses by $24 million primarily by streamlining white collar management, and increasing passenger revenues by $24 million. At the same time, he proposed increasing police and safety capabilities.
"There are several reasons why Metro is facing a revenue shortfall," continued Mr. White. "While Metro has maintained or improved service levels since the last fare increase in 1995, operating costs have risen.
"The current economic slowdown has affected transit agencies across the country, including Metro," he said. "While operating costs have increased, bus and rail ridership has grown more slowly than in the past. Slow ridership growth due to the economic downturn, coupled with the ridership impacts and increased insurance costs attributable to September 11 have combined to create a more challenging funding situation.
"This is the first time in eight years that Metro has proposed a change in its fare structure and we hope our customers understand why this is necessary," he added. "We appreciate their continued use of Metro and in the next few months, we look forward to hearing their input on this important issue."
Public hearings on these fare proposals will follow Metro Board's consideration of the menu for fare, parking fee, and Metrobus service changes.
The Proposed Fiscal Year 2004 Fare Strategy Includes:
Metrorail
Increase peak period boarding charge from $1.10 by $0.10 to $0.30
Increase off-peak fares of $1.10, $1.60 and $2.10 by $0.10 to $0.30.
Increase the maximum fare of $3.25 by $0.30 to $0.60.
Metrobus
Increase the boarding charge from $1.10 by $0.10 to $0.20.
Institute a balanced transfer charge of $0.40 each way between bus and rail, using the SmarTrip card only.
Enhance feeder Metrobus service to Metrorail stations.
Retain free Metrobus-to-Metrobus transfers.
Eliminate rail-to-bus paper transfer
MetroAccess/Paratransit
Modify MetroAccess fares from $2.20 (which is currently double the bus fare) to double the fastest equivalent bus and/or rail fare.
Other Fares and Rates
Increase parking rates: daily rate of $2.25 by $0.25 to $1; monthly rates from $45 by $5 to $20; guaranteed rates from $65 to $95.
Eliminate the 10 percent bonus on Metrorail for fare cards of $20 or more.
Retain the most popular transit passes: Metrobus and Metrorail weekly pass, and one-day pass.
Retain elderly and handicapped fares at one-half the peak period fare all day.
This afternoon I saw a garbage train pass through Queens Plaza that was made up of two R-32's leading, followed by a few garbage flat cars, and EP010 on the tail. So, are R-32's being relagated to work duty now?
Take Pride,
Brian
So, are R-32's being relagated to work duty now?
.....Hopefully not on the IRT......
Seriously though usually work trains are IRT sized so they can go anywhere in the system, but I guess we are getting closer to the day when stainless steal cars will be given over to work duty. Strange site to see.....maybe they can replace the former blue stripes that some of the trains used to have with a yellow stripe.
"but I guess we are getting closer to the day when stainless steal cars will be given over to work duty."
They already are. A train of garbage hoppers on flat cars sandwiched by the R62 car's work cousin came by 34th St Penn Station on the 8th Av line as I was watching.
I think he means stainless steel cars that were built as revenue cars. The R62 car's work cousin was built to be a non-revenue car. See here: http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r127.html
Take Pride,
Brian
Yup, that's what I meant.....
Yes, very true.
Yeah true, but those were built for that specific purpose. I really meant former passenger equipment that have been downgraded to work service.
The R32's you saw may be cars that are no longer used in revenue service and haven't been in some time. I was thinking 3934-3935 but these 2 cars is active in revenue service again. What were the car numbers if you took it down?
I didn't catch the car numbers. I was walking down the stairs to the platform and saw the R-32's go by. By the time I got onto the platform the garbage cars were going by and the R-32's were out of the station. I didn't believe it at first but I'm pretty sure I know an R-32 when I see one.
---Brian
But fortunately I did as the refuse train came today as I got downstairs at Woodhaven...
R32's 3764/3765 are on refuse collection duty.
But fortunately I did as the refuse train came today as I got downstairs at Woodhaven...
R32's 3764/3765 are on refuse collection duty.
Great, so I wasn't just seeing things!
---Brian
If a garbage motor is OOS for any reason, They take what is available. No big news. R-32's, 38's 40's and 42's are on the garbage train in the summer alot because they have A/C
The interesting thing about work trains is that often you'll see IRT-gauge equipment (like garbage trains) on IND or BMT lines. I saw one such train using the work-equivalent car of the R62 (no windows, fewer doors).
Of course, the crew has to be really careful hopping off those cars at B-Division stations.
I've seen 32's and 40M's with garabage flats. In the summer you see em a lot to give A/C to the crew.
Whoever made up the box motors without A/C was plain stupid.
The work equivalent car of the R62 is the R127 and its one door in the middle only [they are EP cars numbered EP001-EP010]. Its dumb that they built them w/o air conditioning.
I didn't know they were without A/C.
That was dumb...
At about $1M apiece, it could of very well have been built with A/C. They have huge fans on the top, not bad but stupid were in a new era; well they were built in 1988 but building non A/C cars is odd :-\.
If I recall correctly-
The reason for no AC on the R-127s/134s has to do with the fact that each work motor has an extra compressor mounted under the car, utilized for pulling the garbage flats....
-Stef
Aha - so the R127 is already working overtime to maintain air brakes on the flat car (leaving insufficient capacity for A/C).
Exactly!
-Stef
Oh, now I see the reason there's no A/C.
Its F*$#d up the TA has relatively new cars with fewer parts to maintain, IE no A/C, simpler propulsion, no door engines, etc, and they are out of service forever it seemed, depending where you are. In Corona, we had 11, 12 and 13, always getting inspected, occasional cleaning, and always in the consists, two motors, one spare. Only once in a pick I had been assigned R33s there. The mainline 1 and 2 trainsets were always replaced by deadbirds, and 207 Street used precious passenger cars for everything from the trash haulers to the good ol dolly. I could only wonder what the MDBF of E44/E45 or the 37307 really was. One the 207 sets, the R127/134's trippers are permanantly set to B division and the cutout handles removed so you could not transfer them over. Forget peeling paint or peeled floor tiling exposing grey "dust", door motors that won't open. I wouldn't be surprised if the highest MDBF in the work train fleets are rider cars themselves. Work trains ain't getting a second chance. Once the birds fly south for the winter........
I vote for Hippos being assigned to that duty < g >
I saw a pair of R40s heading up a garbage train this past summer. It was on the CI yard access track at Bay 50th Street Station on the W line. At first I thought it was just a regular N train, but then I saw the three flatcars and the R127 behind the slants.
i,ve seen the R127/R134 a few times,i,ve seen em at the greenpoint av
ststion with 2 flatcars,picking up some garbage.also saw the same thing down by the BMT west end on the W line,as i was going to stillwell av,an R134 going up the west end along with 2 garbage cars
and heading up the rear was the R32,didn,t get the numbers of both
the R134 or the R32,as i saw the garbage train passing by,the R68 that
i was on was passing an M train getting ready for a layup back to
metropolitan av.and i don,t think an R68 would make a good work car at
all.i would stick to the old IRT work cars for now til later this year
when the remaining R33/R36 cars are retired.then they could turn them
into work cars.
til next time
Wow, alot has changed since I snapped this photo on the way to the beach back in 1992:
The R30's had just "hours" to live.
They were almost done cleaning up the 70's residue from the stations, but they hadn't quite gotten to Rockaway yet.
I was still in college.
Little did I know that this would be the last time I would take a photo of a R30 - hell it was the last time I rode one....I may have skipped the beach if I knew that. I had no idea they were about to be gone.
So long old friends! There I said it, I should have said it that day......
Has anyone evr thought about creating a live SubTalk Chat Room? I personally think that would be a great idea.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling Layout - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
it's been done already, it's been operating for quite a while...
Carlton
http://cleanairbus.tripod.com
The Cleanairbus Transit Page
I don't know where you have been but there is one (most) Saturday nights at 7:30 ET called Chatham Square. Look for the announcements here on SubTalk and BusTalk.
Will it be on saturday night?
Unless something comes up, but things are pretty busy for me through this Thursday. I am hoping to take some time off Saturday night so I think we will be on. It can go on without my being there you know, I can still post announcements.
Don't go there. It's a snooze! :)
I know, that's why we need MORE PEOPLE there.
I've found that the more people that are there, the more interesting the discourse is. It almost never fails.
Although, I should follow my own advice and actually come to the chat room.
Heh, I was there once and one of the members what nice enough to say they didn't need you there! I'll keep the member's ID a secret for his sake! : D
That's OK, I don't find it offensive.
The room doesn't need any ops. Besides, I came in posession of that room through a hostile takeover anyway. It's about time I be censured there for that action.
lmao!
I didn't consider that funny, but making people laugh is always a good thing.
Oh, I didn't realize your were being serious!
Haha...Made you look...roflmao
Photo taken today...
Actually, the A shuttle train I took earlier today had the blue "S" sign, then the T/O switched the sign, showing blue S, blue H, E, F, V, G, R, W, and finally the yellow S that all the other 4 R44 trains were using on that A shuttle in the midday hours...I took the shot when it had "W" on it...I wanted to get the half-S, half H that was there when the guy turned it the wrong way, but I lucked out...Enjoy!
Carlton
http://cleanairbus.tripod.com
The Cleanairbus Transit Page...
Ok try this one....
I may have posted this one a while ago but I think its cool.
It works in the preview.
OMG! Nice.
I'd have like to have seen it set to "H", which is what they SHOULD have it set to. A few weeks back, on the Dec. 21 trip, we saw a trainset of Pitkin Yard R32s in "A" shuttle service (96-Rockaway Blvd to Far Rockaway) with an "H" displayed at one end, an "S" at the other, and all the side signs I could see all set to "A".
wayne
I would have loved it too, but the T/O turned the scroll sign too fast...
I didn't even realize they had H's on the R44 rollsigns. (Although I have no idea why they wouldn't be on there)
To me the H is synonymous with the green R10's.
Now the real mystery to me would be, why would they use the "yellow" S instead of the blue S? Strange.
They're on the R46 rollsigns too.
They use the yellow S because unlike the R46, the R44s do not have the blue S in MOST of the rollsigns.
The Rock Park shuttle usually uses the black (gray) S, from what I've seen.
When all A trains run to Lefferts and only a shuttle goes to Far Rock, there are two different shuttle routes stopping at Broad Channel. Perhaps yellow is used to distinguish the Far Rock shuttle from the Rock Park shuttle. (If only the Rock Park shuttle were known to the public as the H.)
(If only the Rock Park shuttle were known to the public as the H.)
The way it should be. It worked very well back in the late 80's when the H ran - a lot less confusing. I really think they should reconfigure the whole Rockaway service anyway to make it less confusing. The A for one goes to too many different terminals - and many all running at the same time!
Honestly, I really think that cross-Peninsula service should be reinstated, timed so that the single track connection can be used in both directions, or a second track added (but this should not be necessary). The new service should be very simple, a train going back and forth between the two Rockaway peninsula terminals.
I imagine that two consists of R44's or R46's should be sufficient to provide frequent, convenient service.
If we call this train the "H," resurrecting that letter, then passengers anywhere along the peninsula service would have alternating A and H service.
Good idea
And I wanna know why does more A trains go to Lefferts than Far Rock when there are more stations on the Rockaway line??
It's the number of people.
Lefferts Blvd is the busier branch.
But would there be enough passengers for this? There aren't that many passengers running there anyway, a bus seems fine.
Maybe the better solution would be to have this intra-Rockaway completely replace the current Rockaway Shuttle to Broad Channel.
"But would there be enough passengers for this? There aren't that many passengers running there anyway, a bus seems fine"
True, but it would be part of an effort to reinvest in the Peninsula. Plus, passengers have never had that option before.
If any service improvements are done to help Far Rockaway, I'd prefer if they helped JFK passengers too.
Here's an idea, but it would cost about $1 milion a year (roughly comparable to an added Rockaway Peninsula shuttle).
Midday and weekends, there are typically 4 tph to Far Rock, 4 to Lefferts, and 2 trains providing Rockaway Park shuttle service at a 3 tph rate.
4 tph is pretty crummy for what will be to some degree a tourist service to JFK. Meanwhile, the 3 tph Rock Park shuttle isn't coordinated with the 4 tph Far Rock A train.
The proposal: outside of rush hour and late nights:
4 tph 207th to Far Rock (as currently).
4 tph 207th to Rock Park instead of Lefferts.
C extended to Lefferts.
Rush hour and late nights unchanged (except perhaps for nomenclature changes so that 207th-Lefferts expresses aren't called As any more).
(In rush hour there are 9 tph to Howard Beach, which is fine.)
Not convinced this is justifiable but it certainly has a better story than a pure Rockaway train.
You've missed the point completely. What you're proposing and what I am proposing have zero to do with each other. Reread my post.
Whether or not you restructure A and C service to Lefforts or Far Rockaway, my point is to provide true bidirectional Peninsula Service. This is aimed at helping Peninsula residents and the LIRR Far Rockaway branch. That can easily coexist with whatever you want to do, and in fact would be helpful to your scheme (or the current scheme) in that it would make sure any passengers arriving from Howard Beach, Brooklyn etc. could get to where they need to go on the Peninsula.
I agree with you, resurrect the round robin service in the Rockaways, terminating at Broad Channel. It could run on 12 minute headways throughout the day OR if the ridership is low, let it skip stations in Far Rockaway in one direction then it stops in the other direction. I feel that the shuttle is not used to the full extent and I think it would make sense.
It is very interesting to see an R-44 with the roll sign set for "W". A week or so ago there was a report of a train of R-46s working the "A" line.
#3 West End Jeff
The usually dim lighing is dimmer due to "recent flooding" according to a white and red sign on one of the pylons in front of the faregates in the station. There were some work lights along the enterance pod although the station does not appear to be any dimmer than normal. I had been out of town from December 30th until this past Tuesday, so was there any news about flooding at the station? Do remember that Friendship Heights is along the stretch of Red Line with the abnormal number of leaks in the tunnels.
Only today did i see a sign about it. I was at the station earlier this week and I thought the station was a victim of blown fuses.
I hadn't heard anything about any of the metro stations flooding. The only thing I saw recently was that yesterday the elevator at Court House got stuck for about 10 minutes trapping about 10 passengers.
That section of the red line is a mess. I liked your paper on the tunnels under Rock Creek. Found it to be very informative!
I meant to reply to WMATAGM's post about the paper. Sorry!
Thanks for the compliment. They actually came up with a similar idea to mine although I don't know its status. I am sure you know that I am not an employee for WMATA so the paper is merely my opinions on how to fix the problem. All information was either knowledge I had acquired beforehand or that from the cited sources.
I don't know if you saw it but I have another paper in the London section about the history of British Railroads. Let me know what you think of that one.
I'll have to read up on that too. Oh yeah, I know you're not an employee, but its great to see your enthusiasm in it. Its funny when you have an idea that actually is taken up by the agency. There were a few things that I always had questions about and they actually were implemented. For example, the MAN artics never, ever had advertising on the sides of the buses. For years, I kept asking myself why and sure enough, a few years later, they popped up. I also kept thinking a bus line from Bethesda to Tysons would be a good idea and even mentioned it to my former project manager, who worked for Metro back in the early 80's back in 1996 and he said that it would be a waste since people could take the metro. Well, nobody is really using the service, but someone at WMATA thought it would work!
I like your thinking. Do you share it with WMATA managers? You should.
Thanks for the compliment! No, never did give them my thoughts in writing. I used to joke that there was someone listening to me and stealing my ideas. LOL. I did email a suggestion with the B30 bus that we have that runs from Greenbelt Metro to BWI. I suggested that during baseball season, there could be some kind of pass that Orioles fans could get to use that bus to take it to the BWI Light Rail station and take the light rail to Camden Yards. Currently, there are buses that leave from Greenbelt to Camden Yards run by the Baltimore MTA, but they cost $9 round trip and the last bus leaves Camden about a half hour after the game ends. However, the B30 and the light rail run late and it would allow people to stay up in Baltimore longer after a day game, eat dinner or just hang out at the Inner Harbor and still catch public transportation back.
They sent a generic email back saying they'd pass it along, but never heard anything like that again. It was just a way for me to think of something to get people to make it a fun day trip rather than dealing with the parking and traffic.
i have read both of those and they are both magnificent. just out of curoisty, because its written in thesis form, could something like that fulfill any sort of master's or doctorate degree requirement content wise?
I am planning on building a couple of subway related pages for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
over the next few weeks. To spiff up the pages, I want to use the colored bullets with their respective numbers or letters. I could build them using adobe, but is there a ready resource where I could download them? I know Dave has them on some nycsubway.org pages.
I have the bullets in a zip file ( the images are .bmp)(Both 1967 series and current (Single and double letters, train to the plane ect...) I will e-mail the file
Wow, I would LOVE to get a copy of the 1967 file from you for eventual
tee shirts!! Do you have them in a jpeg by any chance?
Subwaygrrl
By the way, I think 1967 bullets would be a great idea for T-shirts. The "QT" would be a huge hit with the females (hopefully) ;)
Also, bullets for the JFK Express, NX and M train (back when it was sky blue) would look nice as well.
Anyone know if images of the Transit Authority's logo from the 60s can still be used on shirts, advertising, etc?
Don't forget the RR, EE, GG, KK, LL, CC, AA, QB, SS, & HH!
I also forgot the 8 train too.
I could build them using adobe
Which Adobe product would you build them in?
Photoshop?
Illustrator?
Go Live?
You could get the route bullets off of the MTA site. Go to their subway section, click on the link for the full system map. Then, click on a route bullet, and it should direct you to a station-by-station line map of that particular route. Right click on the large bullet that should appear on the top left corner, and select "Save Picture As", and then save.
Thanks all, I have received a file from Stephen Pesserillo with eveything I need...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Is there a resource where you could look up what rolling stock was used on what line at any particular time?
My interest was piqued when I saw some spankin' new R42s on the then-RR line in pictures dated 1973 on nycsubway's BMT pages. By the time I started riding the line regularly, from about 1976-1982, the Broadway used considerably older cars, most graffiti-marred, with some then-relatively new R32s. In the late 80s or early 90s the R got R44s or R46s (they're hard to tell apart.)
www.forgotten-ny.com
from about 1976-1982, the Broadway used considerably older cars, most graffiti-marred, with some then-relatively new R32s.
In that timeframe (late 70's early 80's-although it could have been the mid to late 70's), I remember the Broadway locals having R44 or R46's. I remember it (even though I was young at the time) because I remember transfering at Union Square quite often with my father and we would usually ride to 28th Street. It was a noticable difference from the L which had trashed R16's or R27-30's, and I always looked forward to the "ding dong" trains which could have been either R44 or R46's.
Didn't the canarsie have triplexes as late as 1977?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Got me. I wasn't a railfan back then, and was too young to remember. I only remember the R16's or R27-30's in my earlies memories of subway riding. If I was on anything other than that I have no recollection of it.
Well, whatever was on the L, they were trashed. That I do remember!
Nope, the triplexes has been gone for over a decade by then, and that Standards left the Canarsie line in 1969. By 1977, the LL had the last of the R-7/9s and a sprinkling of R-40M/42s in the mix.
So I must've actually been on the R9's then (never knew I was on one). Maybe I was remembering them as the R16's (I do remember perpendicular seating) I was only about 5 or 6 at the time, so it's not like I was saying to myself, "this is a R16". It was only about the early 80's that I started recognizing different classes, and being able to tell them apart - although I didn't learn their names till the late 80's, but by that time I could match them in my head, from what I had ridden when I was younger. I do specifically remember riding the R27-30's on the L though. I remember the pinkish seats. I also remember the R42's on the L (and the M) when they had the green seats.
I even remember riding R32's, and R38's on the M in the early 80's (although I didn't know what they were called). What I noticed is the ridged sides either half way, or all the way up the side of the cars, and of course green seats.
Halfway is R38's, all the way is R32's.
They had some R4's-R9's until 1977, the Triplexes never even saw the dawn of 1970 they were retired in the 60's.
As a rider (on and off) of the Canarsie Line since 1960 when i first moved to Canarsie the following were the car assignments
Standards were used until the spring of 1969
Then R 1 to R 9 and some R 42's were assigned.
The R 16's replaced the R 1 to R9 beginning in the fall of 1976 after the R-46's came on the property and the R 16's were transferred from Jamaica Yard
The R 16's were replaced in 1978 by the R 27's-30's but they were one or two R 16's around
They were usually two or three r 42 trains on ht line
When the R 27's-30's were retired then the R-40,40M and 42's were assigned (believe in 1989) and these trains are currently being replaced by the R-143's
Hope this helps
Thank You
Some R32's trains were used on the L line, during the R30 GOH stage, as I remember riding on one back in the late 80's pre-GOH.
During 1980-81, I distinctly recall many r-16's, some R-10's (I kid you not) and the sparse R-42's running on the "LL". Oddly, there were quite a few R-16's in storage in the Fresh Pond Yard unused for a while. I guess they got pulled to the "LL" or "J" lines because I honestly dont remember seeing the '16's on the 'M". Tony
That is when they were just coming out of the mothballs due to the constant breakdowns of R44's and R46's and yet the 16's I believe STILL had the worst MDBF in the whole system.
It was the truck cracking problem on the R-46s that resulted in the R-16s being pressed back into service and the R-10s being sent to unfamiliar territory.
Most of those R16's laid up in FP yard were the 6400 series cars, the awful GE's. Most were towed to what is now Linden Yard and scrapped there.
Wasn't there an R-16 coverted to a flat car in the 80s? I believe the number was 6392.
-Stef
The Triplexes were retired in 1964. They were last used on the West End line.
The N at that time had R46's. I wouldn't be surprised if that is what you saw. The R which was the RR back in the 70's were assigned from CI yards, and it had R27/30, R40, R40M, and R42.
Nope, not the R40/R40M, they were running out of Jamaica Yard still - the Slants went to the "A" and the R40M went to the "D" in 1977.
wayne
Thanks for the correction Wayne, I did forget that R32's were on the RR also.
May I please make a correction to many responses on this tread.
The BMT 'D' Types [Triplexes] never operated on the Eastern
Division Lines in service. [10, 13, 14, 15, 16].
Please do not confuse them with the BMT Multis which serviced the
BMT Eastern Division [13 & 16] finishing their service life on the
#10.
Thank you, ;-) Sparky
This was taken today at 18th Av on the Sea Beach. What is going on here? There were no passengers.
Take Pride,
Brian
Very handsome trainset.
As to what was going on, your guess is better than mine...
Interesting. Perhaps the train was traveling lgiht to Manhattan.
#3 West End Jeff
This train was traveling away from Manhattan.
---Brian
Then it was traveling light to Coney Island.
It may have been travelling light, but not at the speed of light. :-)
Myabe it is a test for an express run on the Sea Beach Line. Maybe the express tracks will be used once again and we all know the #4 Sea Beach Fred would be happy if his train ran express once again.
#3 West End Jeff
Are you sure that there were no passengers? There is the occaisonal G.O. that the W runs on E4 from 59 to Kings Hwy then E3 to Stillwell.
When this G.O. runs there are usually next to none on the train (at least when I was doing it). Maybe its possible you missed them.
Did any other trains come that way? If not, either someone took a wrong lineup (train would have been discharged at 59, but I don't know why it would be on E4), or it was a test train.
I was on the Sea Beach for most of an hour and didn't see any other crazy W trains. It is possible I missed some passengers if there were any.
---Brian
There's no service advisory posted for this week. (There are for this past weekend and this coming weekend, but those are both northbound.)
I've ridden the GO many times and there are always passengers -- how else are they supposed to get to West End stops? (For stops north of 62nd, they can transfer to the N and take it to New Utrecht, but some don't realize they have that option. For stops south of 62nd, they have to go to Stillwell and backtrack.)
What a cool shot. Talk about being at the right place at the right time! It couldn't have been better if it was planned!
Actually, it was planned. The W was sitting in that position for a few minutes. I just waited for an N to pull out and pushed the shutter.
It did move, eventually.
See, there I thought that W train just happened to be peeking out at the same time that the N was leaving...it's a great shot just the same because it sure has that illusion.
There's a signal just beyond that overpass that usually requires a full stop. All you need is a Manhattan-bound train and voila!!
--Mark
This was a Stillwell-bound train, though.
(There is one SB signal that always requires a stop, between Bay Parkway and Kings Highway. I can't think of any NB. The only times I recall stopping on the NB express run are approaching the end of the express track, waiting to let an N a few stops back slip in front.)
No one has answered my question on this before, but what is up with the black boxes that are to the right of where the W is on? I've seen similar ones recently being installed on the Flushing line. What gives?
You mean to the left of the train in this picture? I'm pretty sure they're signal system related.
I'd thought so. I'd wish for a more technical explanation though. Thanks Tony.
One of Fred's employees was doing a dry run on the soon-to-be ressurrected NX line.
I bet that "RushHourSpecialist" has something to do with it...........
This was taken today at on that bridge over the Sunnyside Yards. I think this train is going into Penn Station, but it only has one DE30 and I don't see any 3rd rail shoes on it. We were just discussing this. What is going on here?
Take Pride,
Brian
Only the dual modes need two engines. The 500's are dual modes, the 400's are not, so 418 wouldn't be headed to Penn Station. It would be going to HuntersPoint Ave.
Ah, thanks.
---Brian
Adding to Chris's comments:
- 400s = DE30AC
- 500s = DM30AC
I got a laugh at the Transit Museum at Grand Central when I saw their model layout that used a F59PH in LIRR posing as a DE/DM. Well, they have a similar appearance :-(
I seem to recall that it was a Metro-North train set (it is in GCT) and that the F59PH should have been a Genesis locomotive, but maybe you're right.
---Brian
One of us is right, I was paying more attention to the R-17 set :-)
This was taken today near Queensboro Plaza. I hear R-32's on the N are rare these days. I caught one of the supposed three sets left.
Take Pride,
Brian
Now if it was 1965, and you had the blue doors, pre GOH, and taken the picture from the 8th Avenue station, you could say R32's on the N.
As part of the convention plans, I read that the Farley PO Building will have a special staging area and will connect to the Garden by way of a special pedestrian bridge.
Does this mean that the planned Farley-Penn conversion will not start till after mid-2004?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yes. Apparently, the initial work inside the building will be done for the 2004 convention, after which work will (supposedly) be done to covert it into a rail station (though if the Democrats choose New York for their 2008 convention, it will be intersting to see what happens to Farley's space allocation then).
This was taken today from the Municipal Parking Garage, looking at Queensboro Plaza. This is an AWESOME view. I got so many great shots like this. I hope to post them tomorrow.
Take Pride,
Brian
Wow, that is amazing, nice shot, really very nice, I only hope that you will allow Mr Pirmann to post a few on his site.
They didn't hassle you at all for being there did they?
I will post them all on my site, categorized by car class, with a few in the category for the Queensboro Plaza station itself. That sounds confusing. Don't worry, I'll post links. I'm not gonna email all 130 photos to Dave since I know he is backed up, and I'll already have them on my site. But if there are any he particularly likes, he can definitly put them on www.nycsubway.org!
No, the security guard actually came over and chatted with me for a few minutes. I guess he is used to seeing railfans up on the top deck and is ok with it. I breathed a deep sigh of relief when I realized he wasn't kicking me out!
Take Pride,
Brian
You sure did a lot work good work at the Muni Queens Plaza Lot. I'd wish I come up and see you, but I had a big lunch I brought in from home to work and it took me the WHOLE hour to enjoy it.
I'm glad you stayed in. It was freezing cold up there.
---Brian
See the tallest buulding, directly behind the lead car? I'm the guy on the 63rd floor eating the ice cream cone....(VBG)
Oh my Lord. Where is Mr. Pirmann's photo contest when you need it? That is a great job Brian.
Heh heh, thanks.
---Brian
Brian, did you take this photo around noon? Because I did go to the Municipal Park Garage two years ago to take photos, I had some experience dealing with the light direction.
Chaohwa
1:43pm. It was mostly cloudy with only occasional bursts of bright sunlight getting through. It seems to me that on a clear day, at this time of day, the light would be great for taking photos of everything from Queenboro Plaza west.
---Brian
Oh god, that's amazing.
Lord, I wish I had a digital camera now...5 megapixels! :O
NICE!!!!
I love the slants. I can't say that enough. Anyhow, note the two guys up on the water tower. They are in a bunch of my photos, but I didn't notice them moving around up there until I saw them in my photos :)
Take Pride,
Brian
They must be railfans too.
Not railfans, they've got their backs to the trains....
They obviously have their eyes on an R-32 set further up the Astoria line.
yeah... there probably contractors... By the way, I'm familiar with the whole area.. Opposite side of that is the rail yards.. and a school.
The area has change over the past 10 years I lived here... Major office spaces are going up all over the place.. As well as massive structural improvement to the buildings in the area.. Which includes that water tower you see in the picture
N Broadway Line
Astoria
You SURE that's a WATER TOWER and not an AIR RAID SIREN, brah????
lol.
:C)
That's just my educated guess :)
---Brian
The top part is a water tower...but notice all the antennae, and the fixture hanging directly underneath.
Could be a combination water tower AND air raid siren! :-)
Antennae... sounds more like an alien surveillance craft to me.
I understand they would want to put one near a subway line to survey it, they are of higher intelligence!
Air raid sirens are no longer in NYC as of the earlier 80's.
I think it was a joke, based on this thread last week:
Thingy on the roof @ Sutter Av
If it is really still there, I wonder if it works?
I have been meaning to get my ass over there. The problem is I work a 9 to 5 job, so I have to wait usually til the weekends. But its nice to know what kind of photograph can be produced from that parking garage.
Are there many Redbirds on the weekends on the Flushing line? Or are they all Silverbirds?
Congratulations. A beautiful, well-composed photo. Out of curiosity, what lens did you use? That parking garage is also excellent for shooting the Flushing Line cars, particularly at the east end.
Here is the EXIF info on that photo. I'm not sure what exactly you are asking. I also took photos of Flushing cars. They will be online soon. I posted one photo here already.
PDRM1535a.jpg
ImageDescription - TOSHIBA Exif JPEG
Make - TOSHIBA
Model - PDR-M71
Orientation - 1 (top left)
XResolution - 72
YResolution - 72
ResolutionUnit - 2 (inch)
Software - Digital Camera PDRM71 Ver1.02
DateTime - 2002:01:09 13:43:08
YCbCrPositioning - 2 (datum point)
ExifOffset - 246
ExposureTime - 1/160 seconds
FNumber - 6.7000
ExposureProgram - 3 (aperture priority)
ISOSpeedRatings - 100
ExifVersion - 210
DateTimeOriginal - 2002:01:09 13:43:08
DateTimeDigitized - 2002:01:09 13:43:08
ComponentsConfiguration - 1 2 3 (YCbCr)
ShutterSpeedValue - 1/125 seconds
ApertureValue - F 6.73
ExposureBiasValue - -0.5000
MaxApertureValue - F 2.93
MeteringMode - 5 (multi-segment)
LightSource - 0 (auto)
Flash - 0 (no flash)
FlashPixVersion - 100
ColorSpace - 1 (sRGB)
ExifImageWidth - 2048
ExifImageHeight - 1536
InteroperabilityOffset - 704
FileSource - 3 (digital still camera)
Thank you for that extremely detailed info. To be honest, I don't own a digital camera as yet (but your great sharp well-exposed photo is pushing me towards purchasing one!), preferring for the moment to go with a Minolta Maxxum 7 and a Canon EOS-1N, and Kodachrome 64 (sometimes 200) or Fujichrome Velvia (a superb film) or the other Fuji slide films, all of which are great.
The camera is the only piece of digital darkroom equipment I'm missing; my other equipment is top-of-the-line slide and flatbed scanners, an Epson 2200 printer (unbelievable output) and of course a whole array of Apple computers the only way to go).
Your work and composition are excellent - keep it up. This from a guy who has been taking transit and railroad photos for almost a half-century.....
Wow, thanks! Yes, I am very happy with this camera (except for underground and low light outdoor action shots, but I think those are difficult to some degree with all cameras), and plan to keep taking photos. My output won't be anywhere near this week, since I start working for the rest of my life on Monday...
Take Pride,
Brian
preferring for the moment to go with a Minolta Maxxum 7 and a Canon EOS-1N, and Kodachrome 64 (sometimes 200)
That's what I use, a Canon EOS (forgot the rest) and Kodachrome 64 film. It usually works great, even in low light underground stations. My problem is not that the slides come out bad, but I can't get my scanner to scan slides properly anymore. A slide could look great, but when I scan it, it gets a greenish haze over it, and darkens it (like in the slide below), and takes the color away from it. I have Canon flatbed scanner.
Any suggestions on other scanners, or what I may be doing wrong (settings on the scanner, etc? This slide looks great as a slide, but as a scan it looks terrible (at least next to the original-which has really sharp color brought out from the mosaics). The greenish tint when scanning ruins it. But there must be a way to scan slides better.
I may have to switch to digital.
The answer is really quite simple. Abandon scanning slides on a flatbed scanner. You must use a dedicated slide scanner where you can adjust everything, including sharpness. Currently, I have a CanonScan FS2720U, which is a superb machine (and I do recommend its purchase), but I'll soon be upgrading to a Nikon (which I need for my publishing operations). The green cast, however, even with a flatbed scanner, can usually be corrected within Photoshop. What scanning program might you be using?
Photoshop Elements that came with the scanner. The sad thing is that slide is "corrected", it was worse when first scanned. It's a shame because the original slide does have great color, and is not dark. I brightened it up a bit and changed the contrast to even get it to the point it is. I don't know what else to correct.
Kodachrome is difficult to scan, because of the way that the emulsions are layered - that's the simple digest explanation that I've gotten, anyway - although high-end scanners are better able to deal with it than they used to be. I've been told by a couple of "professional" camera stores that, given my desire to scan some of my slides, I should switch to Velvia or Ektachrome, but I'm a die-hard Kodachrome fan, so I live with the mediocre scans I get from my old Epson flatbed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is the guy in the blue jacket wearing any pants?
Nice shot. The photo wouldn't have been as good if the top of the water tower wasn't in the photo (even if there were no people), so you must have looked at it at least subconsciously anyway to include it. The people on the tower make for a more interesting shot though anyway!
No, actually, the photo is cropped. I take the photos and then sit here trying to decide how to crop them. Drives me nuts. Here is the original photo:
Take Pride,
Brian
There are two ways to take telephotos from a digital camera.
(1) Use longer lens.
(2) Maximize the resolution and then crop to the desired compositon.
Unless you have a digital SLR, usually compact digital cameras do not have longer lens. In order to get telephotos, you got to have a high-resolution digital camera. I prefer having 4MB-plus digital cameras.
Chaohwa
Yes, I use method (2). My camera is 3.1 MP and hopefully I'll be happy with that for a while.
---Brian
Most digital cameras these days come with 3x optical zoom. Would you recommend buying a 4 MP camera with the usual 3x zoom or a 3 MP camera with 10x zoom?
If I were you, I would prefer buying a 4MP camera with the usual 3x zoom.
Camera lens decides the quality of a photo. Optical zoom is much more important than digital zoom. Unless you want to buy a 10x zoom lens for SLR camera, I do not prefer buying a 3MP camera with 10x zoom.
At least you can print out a very good 8x10 photo with a 4MP camera.
For me, lens quality and high-pixel images are my priorities to decide which camera I want.
Chaohwa
By 10x zoom I mean 10x optical zoom. Digital zoom is meaningless -- I can produce the same effect by cropping at home.
There is at least one mass marketed 3 MP digital camera with 10x optical zoom. I'm considering it as well as some 4 MP cameras. The advantage is that a well-zoomed 3 MP photo takes up less space on the memory card than a 4 MP photo that I'll crop later. Of course, quality is perhaps the greatest concern.
(Prints are largely irrelevant. All I've done with my prints in recent years is scan them.)
Ahh, now I see how you could have missed those people. Great editing though, the final product is great!
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-lilirr0110,0,7356286.story?coll=ny%2Dlinews%2Dheadlines
In this mornings NYT:
Why City Transit Workers Should Reject the Contract
By NOEL ACEVEDO
>>http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/10/opinion/10ACEV.html<< requires reg.
January 10th, 2003
On this date in...
1900...Bids go out for the building of an underground railroad running from City Hall to the Bronx. The first subway opens four years later.
Peace,
ANDEE
STORY HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
I just posted that story last night!
The LIRR is losing an well-respected professional.
>>>I just posted that story last night! <<<
Sorry, must've missed it. I try to avoid that. But, sometimes one slips by.
Peace,
ANDEE
Retires? At age 55? What is this world coming to ... at this rate, the average person's working career will be a brief interlude between school and retirement :(
New deffinition, in Reader's Digest:
The Gates are down, the lights are flashing, but the train isn't coming !
Know anyone who resembles this remark ?
Very cruel...
Half the people in SubTalk....
I resemble those remarks at Warehouse Point where the train (trolley) is coming ... ding ding ding ... honk honk
As I search my memory of Branford, y'all were a little shy on gates and lights. Nothing implied, mind you.
You should have seen me in #4 at The Point dressed like a Eskimo, and singing Christmas songs as we went along down the tunnel of lights. Talk about a labor of love.
We GOTTA see pictures of THIS! :)
***"#4 at The Point dressed like a Eskimo"***
Gawd he, listened to how I told him to dress. I don't bleach it.
;-) Sparky
Mike F.
The big 'T' operates at Warehouse Point [Connecticut Trolley Museum]
also. We have several Branford operators, that are qualified at
other museums, like Seashore, Pennsylvania, Fox River, Western etc.
That's the fun of it, foaming at diffwrent locations.
;-) Sparky
And it's right there in little pink letters on my Rand McNally! This makes it WAY worth getting sent on marketing trips all over the state.
In Ct you have:
- Danbury, diesels
- Waterbury, diesels
- Essex, steam
- Willimantic, diesels
- Warehouse Point, trolleys
- Branford, trolleys
Branford, Danbury & Waterbury you can get there by public transportation.
I was in Săo Paulo for three weeks for Christmas and New Year’s. I must say that spending New Year’s on the beach in shorts and sipping on a caipirinha is the way New Year’s was meant to be celebrated. Screw this cold shit. :-)
Refer to this map so you know what I’m talking about.
See my photo essay of Line 5 here
On 23 Dec, I was invited by the father of one of my friends to take a behind the scenes tour of the Săo Paulo Metro system. Marihno is the Chief Project Director for the Metro company, so this guy has info on all the projects in the works, and has access to many restricted areas. He basically asked me where I wanted to go, and we could go there. We couldn’t visit any construction sites because the two projects being worked on (Line 5 extension and Line 4) were just recently started and there wouldn’t be much to see. Next August, the next time I’m going to Brazil, he said there should be more construction to see.
While in his office at Metro headquarters, I got to see concept drawings and project plans for the Line 5 extension. The extension will be totally underground and he said that it would take about 4-5 years to complete it. He gave me a copy of the public brochure for the new Line 4, which just started construction, and a copy of the Metro Annual Report for 2001, very interesting stuff.
The first place we went was the Central Operations Center near the station Paraíso on Lines 1 and 2. This building controls the operations of Lines 1,2 and 3. In it, went up to the control room where all the trains are monitored. Sorry, no photos. Each line has its own control area. For each line, there are three large projection screens that together show the track layout for the line and where each train is. It shows the speed and how much clearance is ahead for each train. There are about four smaller monitors that can display video from any camera in the system. The control system is completely automated. Each line has two people at the controls that make sure everything is running smoothly.
It’s interesting to note this this 30 year old subway system is already on its THIRD train control system. The first was made by Westinghouse, the second by Brazilian company Cobrasma, and the current is by Alstom. Isn’t NYCT still using 100 year old technology? The system can theoretically operate with no humans. The trains, the train doors, switching, signals and non-revenue runs are all controlled automatically by computer. Of course, every train has a T/O and each line is supervised by real people to make sure everything is okay. There has only been one train wreck in the entire history of the Metro. This subway carries over 700 million people per year on a measly 30 miles of route. Computers CAN and DO work. A line supervisor told me that they have the minimum headway down to 98 seconds on Line 3. The signal system can handle a 70 second headway, but because a delay of only a couple of seconds could throw off an entire line schedule, 98 seconds is the practical limit for now.
After we left the Operations Center, we went back to his office, went to lunch, then we headed down to see Line 5. We were joined by one of his co-workers, whose name I forgot. Because Line 5 is not yet connected to the rest of the subway system, the Metro has a free shuttle van service called the Orca Shuttle that operates between Barra Funda, Vila Madalena and Cidade Universitária stations. We went from Vila Madalena to Cidade Universitária station and transferred to Line C/Line 7. This line runs alongside the Rio Pinheiros, which is the smelliest river in the world. It put a damper on an otherwise nice train line. See my little rant in my photo essay link above about that. When we were approaching Santo Amaro, we could see the elevated Line 5 on the other side of the river, there is also a good view of the cable stay bridge. We got off at Santo Amaro and transferred to Line 5.
The cable stay bridge that the Line 5 Santo Amaro station is on is excellent. The cables run between the two tracks to remind you that this is a unique station. We got on the first train that arrived and headed southbound to Capăo Redondo. All the stations from Santo Amaro to Capăo Redondo are elevated with side platforms. They all also have a similar deisgn to them. The northernmost station, Largo 13, is the only underground station, although when the extension is complete, the rest of the line from Largo 13 northward will be underground. Once we got to Capăo Redondo, we took a short walk over the Operations Center for Line 5. While Marihno and his co-worker were showing their ID’s to get in, the security guard asked if I was the son of one of them, they said, “No, he’s American” and the guard said “Oh” as if I was important and just let me in! So now I have a way to sneak in a steal a train, I’ll just tell them I’m American, and I can do anything. :-)
The reason that Line 5 has its own Operations Center is because this line cannot and will not have track connections with the rest of the system. Line 5 uses standard 1435 mm track gauge and overhead wire while Lines 1-3 uses wider 1600 mm gauge and third rail. The Control Room here has only one set of three project screens for only showing Line 5 operation. Right now, the line is in revenue service, but is still in testing phase. Because of this, the line is only open from 8:00am to 4:00pm. Only four trains are being used, and they are running at 7.5 minute headways. According to the Line Manager, in April, the line will start operating from 6:00am to 8:00pm and more trains will be put into service. Bus routes will also start to be diverted to the new bus terminals at the stations. There is no time set for full time (4:40am-12:00am) operation. 8 six-car trains have been delivered and three of them were in the shop and another in the yard. They are made by Alstom with trucks made by CAF. These are the first trains in the subway have A/C, the other trains just blow air. The yard is mostly empty since it’s big enough to hold the 200+ cars that will eventually used once the extension is completed. My photo essay has a car roster and photos of the trains.
This line is my first time riding a subway that used an overhead wire power supply instead of third rail. After riding this, I come to wonder why systems in the US don’t use overhead wire. It’s safer for track workers, you don’t need a diesel to push a train into the shop, and walking around the yard to much safer. So why isn’t overhead wire in the US popular?
After we left the Control Center, we were going to head out the Largo 13 to check it out, but 4:00 was almost approaching, and the line was about the close, so we just transferred back to Line C/Line 7 and headed back to the Orca Shuttle.
Walking back to the office, a hot woman with lots of cleavage hanging out of her shirt walks by, and the co-worker turns to me and says in English “Niiiiice Weeemen” with a big grin on his face. That was funny hearing that from a 40+ year old.
Questions? Comments?
(Please be advised that should you wish to contact Steve directly, you must send an email to me requesting his phone number as Steve is w/o web access and is interested in serious inquiries only.
I have done my best to transcribe Steve's eight-page, hand-written response. Pardon any grammatical errors that I may have overlooked in the process.)
'I wrote the ERA article about the 76th St. & Pitkin Ave. station. Since I don't have a computer this letter is being submitted by a friend. If anybody wants to talk to me about this, feel free to contact BMTman at his email address (highlighted) and he'll forward you my phone number.
Here are the facts that I know to be true, having been on the four lay-up tracks under Grant & Pitkin Avenues 50 to 60 times with ERA members who can back up this story.
In the Euclid Tower it shows on the model board, and I'm quoting the board: Four tracks to 76th St. station & Cross Bay Blvd. In the Pitkin Yard Tower it shows two yard leads. Black-taped over stating "to 76th St. Station" on the four lay-up tracks. One car length away from the bumping blocks. On the express & local tracks coming from 76st St. are two signals, covered over with rotting canvas. In the signal relay room just behind the Euclid Tower is a 1947 signal schematic stating that the 2 signals -- going to the 76th St. station and beyond the concrete wall (towards Queens) -- controlled the 76th St. TOWER. These were to be installed by the contractor at a later date. You have two yard leads from Pitkin Yard that run for approximately 300 feet heading towards 76th St. They stop at a CINDERBLOCK wall. At the foot of North Conduit & Grant Ave. right where the foot-path between the Conduit Blvd starts. You can clearly see where the crossties are still in place connecting it to Pitkin Yard. The crossovers are still stacked on the ROW. Halfway down the ROW is a reverse homeball. At the base of the cinderblock wall & under the wall (I dug them out) are ties with spike holes in them. This two track lead was used to turn trains from 1948 to 1952 when it was taken out of service. First the portal was back filled with dirt. Two ERA members, Randy Litz & George Abera (deceased) saw this sometime in the early 1960's. Sometime in the 1970's a section of the tunnel had the dirt removed and a cinderblock wall with a structure door was put in'.
I have eyewitness accounts of people who have been in the tunnel and station, through Pitkin Yard only. When I started with the T.A. in 1964 -- Signal Dept. -- I would ask the old timers about all the pockets I saw on the Queens Blvd. IND and found some startling information. My Maintainer (Tom Carey, deceased), worked Pitkin yard as a Helper when it first opened up in 1948. He walked the yard leads to the 76th St. station. There were 2 tracks that went a good distance beyond where the wall is today. Where they stopped was a Type 2 subway tunnel, i.e., just an IND tunnel with no tracks, no lighting or signals. Two ramps leading into the 76th St. station. The station is a full length IND station, roughed out with blue tiles on the walls stating '76 ST.'. These are local stations on a four track ROW. The four track ROW goes to where the bumping blocks are under Grant & Pitkin Ave. and extend beyond the station to approx. 79th St.
In 1968, when I was a Transit cop, riding the A Train, I asked the Motorman if he knew about the 76th St. Station. He did. He said that sometime in the 1950's that section of tunnel beyond the cinderblocked wall had flooded and he had to go in on the pump train. He stated that beyond where the wall is now it was pitch black and the train went a distance, scaring the crew because they had know idea if they would run out of track into a bumping block or a wall. They finally hit water and pumped it out and left. Sometime in the mid-70's I was an NYPD Officer working in the 75th Precinct (Pitkin Yard). Two cops that I worked with then actually got into the tunnel and station thru the structure door in the cinderblock wall. The door has long since been removed). One cop was a former transit cop and knew about the station and tunnels. The other cop whose name I will not mention is also a transit cop and railroad buff and President of the L.I. Chapter of the New Haven R.R. Society. I called him up in 1998 and spoke to him for the first time in 20 years on an unrelated transit matter. After doing so, he told me without me asking about his going into the 76th St. Station.
His description is as follows: His partner drove into Pitkin yard. Got the key from the Yard Master, walked him down the abandoned ROW. Opened the structure door, and walked down. Ballast for quite a distance until they were on the ramps to 76th Street. The station was roughed out, blue tile on the walls stating ’76 ST’. Center entrance, full length in the mezzanine. There was no token booth or turnstiles, but there were staircases leading to the street and cemented over. The four-track ROW was just an empty tunnel, just the way my Maintainer described it. BTW, this person is online, so with a little searching, you can find him. On the street (Pitkin Ave.) from Grant to 79th St. all gratings had been removed many years ago. There is no trace of a subway below your feet, no manhole cover with NYCTS on it, etc. Over the years I have talked to half a dozen Maintainers who when they were signal holders (?), their Maintainers told them about 76th St., having been in it themselves. Keep in mind this spans a time period from 1964 to 1998 and none of these people know one another, yet their descriptions are all the same.
To those of you who say it does not exist, have you been down in the layup tracks and yard leads and talked to reliable sources like I have? The answer is NO! Otherwise you would agree with me. Call me up, I will take you down there myself…so you can put the pieces of this puzzle together.
For the record, the Pitkin Ave. extension was to extend to Linden Blvd & 229th St. (229th being the terminal station). At Aqueduct Racetrack, two tracks were to ramp up to the LIRR Right-of-way and two tracks to Cambria Heights.
Also, don’t be so sure that the TA ‘knows’ where all of its abandoned tunnels and stations are and regularly inspect them. Look at the Polo Grounds Shuttle. It was sealed up and forgotten about. Nobody inspected it until the homeless broke through the wall and lived in it. It’s now permanently sealed up. I was on the ROW two month ago trying to get inside.
Also, in 1967, when I was still in the Signal Dept., I ran across a Maintainer who I had gone to high school with. I asked him if he knew of any abandoned tunnels and stations. He said yes, that he and his helper were working the ‘G’ line at Bedford & Nostrand Avenues. Cleaning garbage from the ROW and rooms -- in a fan chamber -- they found a manhole cover. They opened it up and saw a rung ladder going down and smelled freshly poured concrete. Down they went. They discovered they were on a 600-foot long, two-tracked subway tunnel below the ‘G’ train, running down Bedford Ave. No tracks, signal or lights. They had all of the TOP T.A. brass come down and take a look. Nobody knew what it was built for and NO blueprints exist of this structure. (I know I was in the T.A. blueprint room looking for this and 76th Street. NO blueprints exist even though they were built). I’ve been down there with Maintainers last year. There is a signal/power structure between the two tracks that nobody had a key for. And believe me, this guy had over 50 keys! Just about every abandoned tunnel or station I HAVE BEEN IN.
There is a BMT station in Brooklyn ABOVE the local tracks on the ‘R’ between DeKalb Ave. and Pacific St. (northbound). It was built but never used. The Chief Engineer on the project screwed up -- put it above the ROW. When they constructed the tunnel to the station, the station was unaligned, being some distance ABOVE it. A 1916 Brooklyn Eagle newspaper ran a full-page story on this and how the engineer blew his brains out when the mistake was discovered. T.A. personnel used to climb a rung ladder to chase the homeless out. The ladder has been removed. When I was on the ROW last August, I saw the edge of the platform. No way to get up there now.
I hope this information has cleared up a lot of doubt on this subject. Again, if you want to discuss this further, please use the email address of BMTman to get my number, and we’ll "talk turkey".'
Best regards,
Steve ‘Tunnel Rat’ Krokowski
December, 2002
Many thanks to BMTman and Tunnel Rat.
To be sure, it is not April First, I do not beleive either would be party to a hoax.
Lets look again for surface evidence, elevated street levels, street and road widths, side walk fill.
avid.
Interesting reading, thanks to Steve & BMTman for posting it here.
Thank you. Thank you Thank you. I've brought this 76th Street item from time-to-time on SubTalk, with some similar data gleaned from various sources, and of course many doubted the existence of such a right-of-way and station. Perhaps Randy Kennedy of the NY Times' Tunnel Vision should be contacted, so he can then contact NYCTA brass and fully investigate what so many others have actually seen, and publish the findings for all to see in the Times. What a story it would make. Forgotten New York? Sure looks like it here.
Wouldn't do that. If a railfan gets power in top brass lets leave something for him. Currently it would be dug up from the street and filled in distroying whatevers down there. It would be too much to levae unmaitained strutures in the ground 'cause they can collapse.
Too bad no one ever took any photos of that station.
BMTman ... thank you for taking the time to transcribe Steve's letter and share it with all of us.
Would Steve be willing to "take us down there" as he states in his memo? This would be as popular, if not more so, that the three subtalk "sponsored" walks of the Polo Ground Shuttle remnants. (which, I might add, were probably part of the reason NYC "rediscovered them" and sealed them up (again).)
Or maybe arrange a meeting with all of us where Steve can describe what he saw and allow some Q&A?
--Mark
A field trip!
That's what I was thinking.
I'm for that!!!
Doug,
If Steve is agreeable (and won't get into trouble for doing it) can we get a group together to see things firsthand?
Allan...see my post of 14:21:07
OK, I'll wait to see what you find out.
Count me in !
Will it be possible to open up this station by extending the C train from Euclid Avenue without spending huge money?
Thank You
With my limited view, it wouldn't be politically corect. Top brass thinks if they open a station that hasn't used that people will be pissed at them for not opening it earlier. Its a ego thing.
Oh, my God what an article. Now I don't know what to believe.
If what Steve is saying is correct, there may be many more abandoned stations and structures that even Joe Brennan doesn't know about. I sent Joe the link to this article. I'm hoping he can shed some light on this.
i've been in places he says don't exist.
A BMT station on the northbound side, between Pacific & DeKalb? Ashland Place is so narrow that it would mean the station would be underneath the buildings along side, and in particular the Brooklyn Academy of Music (BAM). That seems like an odd place to put a local station, nearby and between to major express stations. I did hear there were ramps built to allow the Fulton St. El to descend into the Dekalb Ave. station, so perhaps that's it. I'm sorry, but this part does not make sense to me, especially about the engineer committing suicide - seems like he was awfully hard on himself for this.
The rest of the article is impressive - especially if true. I have a Hagstroms map from 1941 and it shows the IND trailing off in dotted lines on Pitkin, I guess before they decided to have it cut north onto the BMT El. Seems odd to me that they would bother tiling the wall and then not bother using a station that was ready to go. Why would they bother finishing it? Couldn't they have just cut north from there and joined with BMT El?
Unused Roosevelt on the on the Queens Line is fully tiled, and it was never used. I have seen photos of it. It is tiled with a blue stripe, and even has the little IND "Roosevelt" tiles.
Yes, but it was supposed to be a terminal and is part of a larger complex. Here, you have a stand along station that was cut off from when the line cut north. Why would they throw that money spent away, and why couldn't they cut north AFTER this station to connect to the BMT El? I just don't understand it, even if it is true.
That's the mystery of it. I had my doubts all along about this, but now I really don't know what to believe.
I did hear that this 76th street station does exist but that only the south side was built, and it is unfinshed. If this is true then that helps to explain why the city connected the IND to the BMT el where it did. It would also mean that original message describing this station is NOT true.
I am pretty sure the comments about a Bedford Ave tunnel and a BMT station betw. DeKalb & Pacific are not true, so why not this?
Of course, there is only one way to prove this, and I'm afraid it won't happen via Subtalk, so I guess we can just enjoy the rumors!
This is where a field trip would help to prove once and for al if this stuff is out there. Of course there's almost no chance of that happening [you never know] but we could imagine can't we :0).
As for the Bedford tunnel, that's a possibility but a station between DeKalb & Pacific on another level, I seriously doubt that but only physical evidence WILL prove these 'mysteries'.
Top brass doesn't follow normal logic.
***"Why would they throw that money spent away,"***
Similar situation of wasting funds in the same time period by the
"Board of Transportation". Nobody was watching those days.
Flatbush Avenue Brooklyn Streetcar Line was rerailed with new rails
and the operators trained for PCCs, which never came to Flatbush
Avenue. Busified March or April, 1951. Cost of new rails & training
in 1948 dollars [$1M] thrown away. WHY?
;-)Sparky
***"Why would they throw that money spent away,"***
Similar situation of wasting funds in the same time period by the
"Board of Transportation". Nobody was watching those days.
Flatbush Avenue Brooklyn Streetcar Line was rerailed with new rails
and the operators trained for PCCs, which never came to Flatbush
Avenue. Busified March or April, 1951. Cost of new rails & training
in 1948 dollars [$1M] thrown away. WHY?
;-)Sparky
Here's a photo of Roosevelt from Joe Korman's (http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/nyctind/roosvelt-rock-line/index.html) site:
Looks about as well maintained as the other section of the station.
Please note that this is pre WWII style IND tiling, even if it is blue.
All IND stations on the A & C after Broadway Junction thru
Euclid Avenue have a distinct post WWII style tile, that IIRC is
distinct to these four stations.
Or where are the pixs of 76. That's the proof of the pudding.
SHOW ME THE PIX & I SHALL BELIEVE.
;-) Sparky
Correct. AFIK, the only stations that have the "New IND tiling" are Liberty to Grant, Lower 42nd Street, and the ghost station at 76th if it indeed exists. Of course you could add 57th Street/6th and 179th/Hillside as extreme "new style IND tiles"
ME TOO! Show some physical evidence like pics and official documents proving 76 St's existence and I will believe it.
What follows will neither prove nor disprove the existence of 76th Street Station. It is a collection of observations made (and posted here) last month concerning the stub ends outside Pitkin Yard (A-7 and A-8). It did not attract much notice at the time, perhaps because strike fever was in the air. I apologize in advance for the photos, since the light is not the best down there:
"Sorry but this is going to be shorter than originally intended since everything i typed earlier decided to disappear.
"After 20 years I revisited the stub ends at Pitkin Yard today (12/13). I can comment on some of the things i have read or misread here over the past few weeks.
"The cutouts for Tracks A7 and A8 extend about 200 feet beyond the present yard leads. The benchwall ends about five feet short of the bulkhead, and the duct work steps down in a sort of staircase. The bulkhead is of cinder blocks, not the solid concrete ususally associated with IND bulkheads. Interest has certainly been stirred up about this bulkhead; one can see (1) a smashed cinderblock, and (2) the beginnings of a hole being dug under the bulkhead, with the shovel still in place.
"Only vestiges of the tracks that were here originally remain: ballast, some ties, signal boxes and pedestals, third rail junctions, reverse home signal [A7-2 (X66)], etc. The current signal prints, originally dated November 1964, indicate that switches 65 and 67 beyond H/S A7-5 (X70) have been removed, although their relays remain in service in the tower. These switches would have diverted trains towards the bulkhead. The spike holes can still be seen in the ties, which were, in some cases, shifted when the area was reconfigured. There is no pile of sand in front of the bulkhead.
"The rails on the current Track A7 were produced in March 1947. I am looking at the drawing for relay case A8-3Z, located at stationing 2+90 within the stub end, produced by the Board of Transportation, New York City Transit System, IND. Div, Engineering Bureau. The case wiring diagram for a contact rail indicator under contract S-44 and S-45 was approved on September 19, 1947. The original prints were produced on January 28, 1949. Track A8 is designated as the East Bound Track.
"Some pictures (darkish at times) are available at
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/metro_ny
look in the folder marked Pitkin Yard."
PS: on a return surface trip, there is an NYCTS manhole on the grass divider of the Conduit, closer to the W/B side; unfortunately the camera battery was dead. Next time it won't be.
Difl: I did read your earlier post with much interest and indeed I printed it out. I myself made a post on Friday night which explained something of the history of the area and listed the pros and cons so to speak. Apparently the IND was extended to Euclid Avenue toegether with the leads to the Pitkin Avenue Yard. This was in 1948. What was also consturcted at this time was the provisions for two extensions beyond Euclid Avenue. The four main tracks of the Fulton Street Line extended at least to Elderts Lane and end at the bulkhead. There was also provision for a two track connection into the BMT Fulton Street El which also ended at a bulkhead. In 1948 there was no immediate reason to provide a Rockaway connection as the LIRR was still running that service and the trestle fire was two years in the future.
I wonder if the BOT was undecided weither to extend the line east on Pitkin Avenue thereby roughly parrelling and possibly replacing the Fulton Street El.(In a similar way that the Archer Avenue Line replaced the Jamaica Avenue El). It is intersting that provisions where provided for two extensions.
The most intriging thing about this whole scenario is what you have verified. That track were installed in the yard lead for about two hundered feet and there where switches providing access into them. Two hundred feet is a very short distance for a subway train and I wonder how much utility these short lengths of track provided. I could understand the BOT consructing some length of tunnel as provision for a future extension. This would have made good sense. But why install operable track?
Thanks for much good information.
Larry, RedbirdR33
***"I wonder if the BOT was undecided weither to extend the line east on Pitkin Avenue thereby roughly parrelling and possibly replacing the Fulton Street El.(In a similar way that the Archer Avenue Line replaced the Jamaica Avenue El). It is intersting that provisions where provided for two extensions."***
Larry,
I know your much more researched then I am on Subway matters, but
using the "Projected Extensions Map" from the BOT to the city planning commission,
dated July 5, 1939 it shows the two branches past Euclid Avenue.
The line going onto the Fulton El at Grant Avenue as built, AKA "Liberty Avenue Line"
to Lefferts Blvd, as built.
Also the Fulton Street Extension to 229th Street.
On this extension it also shows a connection to the Rockaway Line
coming from Queens Boulevard Line to the Rockaways, as now served.
So the takeover of the LIRR Rockaway service by the Subway was imminent.
The 1950 fire of the trestle just expedited the takeover.
Also wasn't the extension of the Fulton Street line beyond East New
York underway and delayed by WWII?
Truth or Fiction, the map is dated 1939 and I purchased same with
the "Twelve Historical NYC Street and Transit Maps" Volume II.
Some other interesting proposals on this map also, that never came
to fruition.
;-) Sparky
Sparky: You're quite right about the 1939 map. I looked up the proposals and they did indeed plan for two extensions beyond Euclid Avenue. They also had two proposals for the Rockaway Line. One was to connect to the Queens Boulevard Line and the other was to connect to the Fulton Street El.
The IND Fulton Street Line reached Rockaway Avenue in 1936 and this became a temporary terminal. Some work beyond this point must have been done before the war interveined because the extension to Broadway-East New York was made in 1946 and the one to Euclid Avenue was in 1948.
I guess that I will have to stop by the transit museum store and pick up that map.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Amazing I had said pretty much the same thing. Some of the line was built and the tunnel kept on going after the stations were opened. It's not photo proof. But it was a serious proposal to have service continue along Pitkin Ave and the next stop after Euclid would have been 76 St.
OK now, question about the Rockaway connections. Were they negotiating with the LIRR back then and also in the 40's when they connected the IND to the Liberty St El? I mean that was way before the fire on the Rockaway trestle. Was the LIRR looking to abandon the line before the fire? I doubt they were planning the IND on wishful thinking.
***"They also had two proposals for the Rockaway Line. One was to connect to the Queens Boulevard Line and the other was to connect to the Fulton Street El."***
Larry, you read the proposals, now you say "Fulton Street El", as the
map read "Fulton Street Extension", would it be El or Subway, if it
was built as proposed? I know the connection to the Rockaway
Line would have to emerge from the Subway to join it.
BTW, if your doing the MLK Day jaunt with us, I'm planning on visiting
the Transit Museum Store at GC prior to meeting the group.
;-) Sparky
When the Fulton St Line was extended to Euclid and opened in 1948, I think the intention was to have the IND take over the LIRR going toward the Rockaways. Isn't it why 10 years beforehand when the Queeens Blvd line was opened there was the provision after 63 Drive that would have went on the same line going to the same place?
However with the increased costs of building a subway, it was decided to just have the next expansion on the line go to just Lefferts Blvd. And the connection to the LIRR would be made at Liberty Ave instead of Pitkin Ave.
NOTE TO ALL INTERESTED PARTIES: I spoke to Steve K. this morning. I mentioned to him that any pictures that he might have would be appreciated to help confirm his diatribe as a number of you have inquired about photo evidence.
Steve says he has pictures of the signals and the cinderblock wall WITH the structure door in place as these photos are from the period when he was a member of the NYPD.
I will scan them and post them here once Steve digs them up.
Please note that this is pre WWII style IND tiling, even if it is blue.
All IND stations on the A & C after Broadway Junction thru
Euclid Avenue have a distinct post WWII style tile, that IIRC is
distinct to these four stations.
Or where are the pixs of 76. That's the proof of the pudding.
SHOW ME THE PIX & I SHALL BELIEVE.
;-) Sparky
Five stations had this type of tile!
1) Liberty Avenue
2) Van Sycklin Ave (Spellin)
3) Sheppard Avenue
4) Euclid Avenue
5) The original tile at 179th St on Hillside Avenue
avid
Here's a bunch of Roosevelt Ave Second System Photos pulled from one of my videos.
--Mark
Dontcha know that engineers who screw up ALWAYS commit suicide? (Sinking Library Syndrome). Seriously, that part reeked of urban legend to me; it casts a bad light on the rest of the story. I'm with Sparky, show us the pictures....
***"I'm with Sparky, show us the pictures...."***
Dave, thanks for the kudos.
Without blasting a person, who can not respond on this board,
my ending thought, You don't know Steve [Super Cop] like I know
Steve [Super Cop] from experience at Branford. Politely he's one
of Branford's SUPER FOAMERS, in the #2 position. Branford's #1
FOAMER SUPREME is "Headlights" or some may know him as "Hellgate".
AMEN,
;-) Sparky
i've never actually heard of this spot before. all i said is that i've been to a place or two or three that joe brennan has stated do not exist.
Posted by The Joe on Fri Jan 10 16:45:03 2003:
"i've never actually heard of this spot before. all i said is that i've been to a place or two or three that joe brennan has stated do not exist."
So, please tell us where you've been and maybe you took photos??
ah, i took some photos... well, a lot actually. anyone can email me off this board for a look at some online. brillecream@yahoo.com . don't get me wrong, the guy knows his stations, but when you go around some of these places you find what no book can show you (or at least not what a subway book might show you...)
I will share this one though - because it's never made a lot of sense to me and seems to be unknown to most people interested in this sort of thing:
at 2nd av on the F, where the two tail tracks head off east as part of the never built second system, there is a mezzanine area. now, i realize they made provisions for the second av subway at the west end of the station, but this is just a bit beyond the east end. - west of first av. even.
there are stairs from track level to a mid level in the tunnel that extends to the wall of the station. up one more level from there (via stairs that appear to have been for passenger use) there is a mezzanine above the 2 tracks.
unlike closed portions of mezzanines I've seen around the system, this one does not contain any steps leading up towards the surface or anything that would suggest that it was ever intended as a fair control area. it is a dark, caverous room devoid of all light, and everything else for that matter. it's quite large. there are no trackways or any suggestions of it being anything like the known IND provisional platforms. There are no electrical or mechanical items of any sort that would suggest it was a signal room or any other MOW space. no windows looking to the tracks below to suggest it was a massive tower.
what on earth it's intended use was is beyond me. I've racked my brain and read what there is to read around the web and still have not found any answers.
today, it is sealed behind the new metal wall, down the tail tracks. I'd assume it was used quite a bit by the homeless, which is why that tail track area was gated off, though when i saw it, there was no signs anyone had lived there...it was likely just cleaned.
anyone that can shed any light on that mystery for me would be owed at least one beer.
Thanks! :-)
-Ed
If Steve is accurate, that abandoned tunnel section underneath the 'G' at Bedford could infact be the aborted plans for the BMT's idea of a Crosstown line involving a continuation of the Franklin Shuttle n/b as a bonafide subway line connecting northern and southern Brooklyn.
Sorry, but if it was a BMT tunnel under Beford Ave. then it would be above the G and not below. Just about all NY's subway lines are built as close to the surface as possible.
If this was a BMT line it would have to have been built no later than the early 1920s (pre Mayor Hylan), when nearly all BMT & IRT subway construction stopped. There are no plans for this in any subway proposal I have seen - the BMT's (actually BRT's) proposed Brooklyn-Queens "cross-town" line was to be an el, and it would have been north of Myrtle Ave. (the G is south of Myrtle at this point).
Now there WAS proposals to continue the IND East from the G's Beford Station (it has 3 tracks), to completely replace the old Lafayette St. El, but that would put any unused tunnel under Lafayette and not Bedford (they intersect). This proposal did not make it to either the Board to Transportations new route proposals for either 1929 or 1939.
I feel this post is kind of foolish - you know you are going to a hidden place and you don't bring a camera?!?!?! What was Steve K. thinking?
sometimes though you'll get photos of such a place and it could look like anything else. i have some from the strange 2nd av spot i described in another post in this thread, and litterly it looks no different than a large empty waerhouse basement (well except for the steps up to it and the odd hatch in the floor...).
Well then you need video!
this is true. if i had my digital back then, i would have made a short clip of going up into it. heck, i'd go do it now but it's behind that metal wall.
There is a BMT station in Brooklyn ABOVE the local tracks on the ‘R’ between DeKalb Ave. and Pacific St. (northbound). It was built but never used. The Chief Engineer on the project screwed up -- put it above the ROW. When they constructed the tunnel to the station, the station was unaligned, being some distance ABOVE it. A 1916 Brooklyn Eagle newspaper ran a full-page story on this and how the engineer blew his brains out when the mistake was discovered.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait!!!
A BMT station above the R Line between DeKalb and Pacific? Infrastructure between the street and the existing subway? And you can't access it?
THe BkEgl has a full-page story in 1916?
Give us a date. This would be an easy one to check, Doug.
Paul, I'll be at BPL tomorrow going through their archives...
You'll hear from me.
A BMT station above the R Line between DeKalb and Pacific? Infrastructure between the street and the existing subway? And you can't access it?
Paul: I wonder if this is being confused with the never used mezzanine at the south end of 36 Street Station.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I wrote to Joe Brennan, who said:
"This was the IRT tunnel heading, not station, into 4 Ave off the
present day IRT line. Very dramatic here. Not an error, a change
of plans by the PSC.
"I guess the rest of this is as accurate."
Sounds like the abadoned Nevins St lower level.
Joe Brennan thinks 76th Street was an IRT station?!
Joe Brennan thinks 76th Street was an IRT station?!
No, that the alleged BMT station above the R between DeKalb and Pacific, over which the chief engineer supposedly blew his brains out, is actually a never-used IRT tunnel segment.
I forget where I read it, Just before a s/b IRT local enters Atlantic Ave, there is supposed to be a slight bellmouth where IRT trains were to have gone on 4th Avenue. It was one of the provisions that Belmont built for expansion of the IRT.
I was responding to Joe's last sentence.
Joe was talking about a location where supposively a station or shell or ROW where the Brooklyn IRT would have connected with the (now) BMT 4th Avenue Line.
Wow, I don't know what to believe now. This sure is an interesting find.
One more thing - a 600 foot subway tunnel under Bedford Ave?? Sorry, I don't buy that either. I know that there a pieces of tunnel beneath other lines with the intention to be built (like at the IND Utica Ave) but 600 feet is 3 blocks - I've also never heard of any plan to build any subway under Bedford Ave, esp. the IND (since it is claimed to be below the G line).
I am thinking that this post is mostly legend....
I think there was supposed to have been a subway on Bedford Avenue. At Nostrand Avenue on the A line, at the north end of the station there was an overpass and a parttime booth where a transfer to the line was planned. For the last several years the passageway has been used as a storeage room. If it would have been a BMT or an IND route, I don't know. A few months ago I was at the Bedford/Nostrand Ave Station on the G. I didn't see anything at the station that looked like a transfer to another line.
"I am thinking that this post is mostly legend...."
IIRC, people said the same thing about a tunnel on Atlantic Ave in Brooklyn.
"A few months ago I was at the Bedford/Nostrand Ave Station on the G. I didn't see anything at the station that looked like a transfer to another line. "
Take a Queens bound G train and look out the window on your left after the train leaves Bedford-Nostrand. If you look carefully, you should see the center track descend. Where it goes? Who knows...
On the subject of tunnels and stuff, take a Brooklyn Bound Q, diamond Q or W. After the train descends from the Bridge into the tunnel in Brooklyn, look out the window to the right. If you look carefully, like maybe 5-7 seconds after the train has been in the tunnel, there is what looks like a bellmouth. It looks like a tunnel that led from some other line that was to connect to the Manhattan Bridge tracks leading to DeKalb. Anyone know anything about this mysterious tunnel, because I've heard nothing about it.
I know what you are talking about and I am also curious about that. So someone help us out.!!
That line would have continued down Lafayette Avenue. On that Queens Bound G train at Bedford/Nostrand, Bedford Avenue exit would be at the back of the train.
This bellmouth that you're describing is it going into the Q and W line or would the Q and W line go into it? I ask because I have a set of BMT track maps prepared by David E Rogoff E.R.A. #1934. On Plate #4 dated 9/26/1966 there is a diagram for the BMT line from the Manhattan Bridge to 7th Avenue. After the train enters the portal there was a provision (bellmouth) for a turning track. From what I can gather, Trains going to Manhattan on the northside of the bridge would switch on to the turning track (I think it wouls be more like a set of tail tracks) where after the train changes ends, it would comeback on to the line on the Brooklyn Bound track on the southside of the bridge.
"This bellmouth that you're describing is it going into the Q and W line or would the Q and W line go into it?"
It would go into the Q and W line.
It was a provision for a turning track.
Where it goes? Who knows...
It goes to the Land of the Underpants Gnomes.
[... Call me up, I will take you down there myself…so you can put the pieces of this puzzle together.]
Just for the record, Steve asked me to transcribe his letter verbatim. However, he writes like he talks -- jockularly -- and made a boast of 'taking you down there myself'. Obviously, he does not have the authority to do this, and has long since retired from the NYPD. Whenever he 'investigated' the tunnels, he was doing so either as an employee of NYCTA or the NYPD, or was otherwise in the company of an authorized employee of NYCT.
Subway tunnels are not for public access and it is illegal for non-NYCT employees to be found in them. With this in mind, let's relax, take a deep breath, and do 'paperwork' investigations into these mysteries -- a perfectly legal approach.
Well, as the subject asks, BMT Man, since you posted this dissertation
are you printing the responses for my buddy "Super DUPA Kop" to read???
Or does he really xpect someone to "talk turkey" with him???
;-) Sparky
PS-You have my permission to echo my title for him to him.
Will have to do 'hard copy' for Da Super Kop! :)
10-4 K
;-) Sparky
Hmmmm .... Steve Krokowski? Sounds a little too much like "crock," if you catch my drift.
Peter,
I'll verify that it's a real person and that it his name.
;-) Sparky
if he is the person i'm thinking of, he exists...
I've known Steve for several years, he's a good guy, very outgoing and is willing to share history and accounts with others who are as interested in these subjects as he is.
You shouldn't make fun of people's ideas by making fun of people's names.
Actually very likely means pertaining to Cracow.
Pete, if he's the person I think he is, a frequent visitor to Branford, it is not a crock. Whether 76th Street exists or not, Steve definitely believes it does and has brought up everything in person to me that he mentioned in Doug's (BMT Man) letter.
Thanks, Jeff. I know Steve would appreciate your 'backup'. (particularly from one of his fellow 'Finest' brethern).
"There is a BMT station in Brooklyn ABOVE the local tracks on the ‘R’ between DeKalb Ave. and Pacific St. (northbound). It was built but never used."
How about a built, but never used fare controls at the 36th St station further down 4th Ave ? I was told it exists and was abandoned when the West End Line was tied into the 4th Ave subway. The original 36th St. station ended south of the current station where the ramp to the West End Line is today. You'll notice the tiles and mosaics when switching over from the express track to the middle. I've seen it. I was told this by a current T/O who is on the level.
Another mystery ?
Bill "Newkirk"
According to the BMT part on www.nycsubway.org, the station was started before the dual contracts were signed as part of the "Triborough" plan. The 4th Ave. line as planned line would have turned down 40th St to continue down New Utr. Ave towards Coney Island.
Later the BRT signed on and the existing RoW on 39th St was used so the southern part of the station was abandoned. This also explains why the columns are in the middle of the platform in the center & north but to the south are in pairs with a lower roof.
Doug, is this Steve the retired cop who often comes to Branford with his lady friend? I've known him for the number of years I've been going to Branford and never had any idea he was the same Steve mentioned on this site about 76th Street. Then one day on the trolley we started talking about 76th Street and I put two & two together. He said he has no computer so I assume they are one and the same. Is he?
Jeff, you are correct....go pick up your 'get out of jail card'. :)
Yes, Steve usually comes up to Branford on every other weekend with his 'other half' Irene (aka 'The Cupcake Lady').
Sorry, I didn't see this post earlier.
Yeah, I kind of figured that. Its just funny I've seen him mentioned on this site by you and Sparky a number of times and have known him for about 3 years and didn't realize it was the same person 'till he started talking about 76th Street a few weeks ago during Santa on the Trolley.
Hey, Sarge -- that's why ya never made it to Detective! :)
Hey Sarge,
You didn't catch the identification, when I said Branford's Super
Foamer #2. Go to jail, go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not
collect $200. Shame on you.
;-) Sparky
LOL!
Whether 76th St. or the BMT Pacific St. or any of that stuff exists or not, I don't know, I have no proof either way. I will tell you one fact, however- all of that post is complete hearsay. Think about it- BMTman is posting a letter form someone else, with no signature or proof that Steve wrote it. In fact, one can't contact Steve without going through BMTman. Also, in this letter from someone else, all the pieces of information are all told to Steve by unnamed people. "Eyewitness accounts" are not eyewitness accounts if unnamed person A tells person B who tells person C. Person C has NOT received an eyewitness account, he has received hearsay. An eyewitness account is if person A tells person C what he saw. I am sorry, I am not calling anyone a liar, or saying that BMTman is purposely presenting untruths, or Steve, for that matter. Number one, because Steve didn't present it, BMTman did, so no one can challenge it. It's all third and fourth hand information. In a court of law, all of that post would be dismissed as complete lack of any hard evidence. Actually, to be honest, rather than clearing up any doubts, it solidified my doubts. In all due respect, I will no longer even discuss 76th St. with any of you, because now we have entered the realm of UFO talk. All the "proof" is based on hearsay, uttered by people that "can't be named". Again, I'm very sorry, but this is beyond silly.
And, furthermore, even the title of the post is misleading, because the Tunnel Rat didn't respond to anything-he doesn't have web access, right? The title of the post should have been "BMTman passes along Tunnel Rat's response to, etc."
J-Train, I don't know if 76th Street exists or not. But I can attest to the fact that Doug is truthful about Steve, Steve exists and really does believe what he says. However you are right about heresay, Steve never said he was down there himself and the witnesses he cited might have been kidding him.
All this talk about 76th Street reminds me of the debate about a station E/O 179th Street on Hillside a few years ago on SubTalk. Well, I can attest to the fact that there IS a station on Hillside E/O 179th. I've been in the station numerous times!
If E/O means East Of 179 St, where was it ?
Me and JM passed up the opportunity to visit this station on Wednesday's trip because of time constraints. :-)
I knew you knew because you guessed it a coupla years ago! Bob Anderson did too. Don't give it away just yet!
Since nobody seems to be interested I'll give the answer even though Pigs knew it. Don't nobody punch me but its East Williston. Well the station IS on Hillside Av and it IS East of 179th Street!!!
But is East Williston the NEXT station?
There ain't none between them!!
That's a long run!
BUT, but is it beneath or above the surface?
avid nit picker
Read my post of 19:00:28; it's not *all* hearsay; enough is factual to keep the myth alive. There, I guess I've taken sides.
The fact that you called it a "myth" says something about how truthful this all is.
Tony: I happen to know both Doug BMT Man and Steve K. Doug is a decent and honest man and would not fabricate such a story. I have met Steve several times and spoken to him at length about this tunnel and I daresay that I am fairly knowledgeable on subway matters myself. I do not doubt Steve's veracity especially when his knowledge about other tunnels which I know to exist is so complete.
What is lacking as we have said here before is hard evidence.
My own opinion is that the tunnels do extend beyond the bulkheads for some distance. How far? I don't know. As far as 76 Street? I don't know that either. I say that the tunnel may extend beyond the bulkhead because the yard leads from Pitkin to 76 Street extend only a few hundred feet from the junction with K5 and K6. Switches were installed and the track was usable for those few hundred feet. Why install switches into a length of track so short as to be virtually unusable? The swictches and tracks A7 and A8 have since been removed.
What exactly was constructed and when? In his history of the subway system Joe Cunningham states that the IND was extended to Broadway-East New York Avenue on December 30,1946 with plans for an extension on Pitkin Avenue and stubs for a future Jamaica Avenue Subway. Work on the Pitkin Avenue Route WAS ALREADY UNDERWAY. The line was completed to a full terminal at Euclid Avenue with a 40 track 585 car yard and an inspection shed. Provisions for extensions
toward the Fulton Street El and along Pitkin Avenue were made. The line opened on November 29,1948.
Bulkeads were installed in four locations. On the aforementioned tracks A7 and A8. On tracks K5 and K6 (since removed) which connect Pitkin Yard to the Fulton Street El. On tracks K1 and K2 (since removed) which connect Euclid Avenue and Grant Avenue and on tracks A1,A2,A3 and A4 at about Elderts Lane.
The Board of Transportation in 1951 amended their 1949 Report of Subway Extensions to include a takeover of the Rockaway Line. Note that this was two years after the IND had reached Euclid Avenue. What promted this amendment was the May 8, 1950 trestle fire on the LIRR Rockaway Line which resulted in a permanent suspension of LIRR service to the Rockaways via Jamaica Bay. Extension of subway service to the Rockaways had been talked about for many years and indeed there was rapid transit service to the Rockaways by the BRT from 1898 to 1918 via the Chestnut Street Incline. Provision was made during construction of the IND Queens Line at 63 Drive to connect to the LIRR. The loss of direct Rockaway service neccsitated a cheaper and faster solution to provide transit service to the Rockaways. A BOT approved $10,154,000 to build a connection from the Euclid Avenue Terminal to the BMT Fulton Street El. This involved removing the existing bulkhead on tracks K 1 and K2 and building a new station at Grant Avenue. Note that Grant Avenue Station had not been built when the line was extended to Euclid Avenue. The bulkheads on Pitkin Yard leads; K5 and K6 were probably removed at this time.
If the Pitkin Line had been constructed to 76 Street why was it not used as a terminal? The answer is in the track plan for 76 Street. It was to be a four track local station with two side platforms. There were to be two sets of double crossover east of the station but only between the express and local tracks. It would not have been possible to build a temporary terminal here as was done at Rockaway Avenue for several years.
I have a track plan of the entire area drawn by Mr David Rogoff who was probably the most knowledgeable subway construction historian of his day. Mr Rogoff states that the tunnels east of the bulheads and the entire 76 Street Station were never built. He was alive and active in railfanning at the time of the original construction and would certainly followed it very closely.
While I cannot prove or disprove the existence of the 76 Street Station I hope that this post will clarify the situation somewhat. I would not however doubt Steve's honest beliefs or Doug's intentions.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Larry-
I do not doubt for a second Steve's honest beliefs OR Doug's intentions, and I sincerely hope I don't sound as if I do. All I was stating was that which you yourself stated:
"What is lacking as we have said here before is hard evidence."
My intention was not to challenge Steve or Doug, or question their honesty. I posted what I did because many on this board will read Doug's post and will say it is "proof" that 76th St. exists.
Hey Doug, that should read "Signal HELPER, not Holder"
:-)
Dave
Thanks...like I said...I was doing the best to transcribe EIGHT-HAND WRITTEN pages...it wasn't easy!
BTW, were you aware that Steve K. had been in your NYCT title prior to being a cop? It was news to me...
WOW!!!!
This took 3 hours to write. NObody would waste their time faking this!
There were 2 tracks that went a good distance beyond where the wall is today. Where they stopped was a Type 2 subway tunnel, i.e., just an IND tunnel with no tracks, no lighting or signals.sd
WOW!!!!
This took 3 hours to write. Nobody would waste their time faking this!
There were 2 tracks that went a good distance beyond where the wall is today. Where they stopped was a Type 2 subway tunnel, i.e., just an IND tunnel with no tracks, no lighting or signals.
What does "type 2 subway tunnel" mean? And what are the other kinds of subway tunnels?
If my memory is correct Type I would be original IRT style trackbed. Best way to tell the difference: Type I has standard type trackage where crossties run full width of trackbed....while Type II has that section cut out in the middle for water drainage (and for use as a safety-area should someone fall on the tracks). Also, you notice that the ties (half-ties actually) are embedded in concrete.
IIRC, after unification, all rebuilt trackbeds follow the IND type II design.
As long as Doug just transcribed a work of fiction, I thought I would put up a link to a strange story about a homeless person living at the abandoned 91st Street station in Manhattan. I found it when I was searching for more articles on rats in the subway system.
91st Street Station
Heypaul, thanks for posting that. It's a real heartbreaking story.
I was only in that station once, and I can only imagine the deteriorating mental state of someone who would have stayed there for any extended period of time. It was extremely interesting, but believe me, I was very happy when our 1 train was flagged down for us, and it was time to leave.
The only artificial light source in the second photo is from when I flashed my camera into the darkness of the stairway. Just imagine what a cave without light it is there!
Chris... I'm glad you liked the story. At first, I thought it was true, but I'm pretty sure now that it was fiction.
When you visited the station, was it part of a Transit Museum tour??
I was in the area today. I was looking for some sign of where the entrances were. I really couldn't tell..
It was on a Transit Museum tour in 1996 that did:
91st:
18th St:
City Hall:
And also Grand Central Tower, and the abandoned Brooklyn Bridge Local Platforms. It was quite a tour and it only cost about $15.00 for members, I believe. a real shame they dont do it anymore. I would love to do it again. 91st Street is the wost in terms of graffiti. City Hall and Brooklyn Bridge are totally free of it (except someone made eyes out of one of the Brooklyn Bridge name tablets.
After some discussions w/ NS regarding freight handling, Amtrak has decided to not curtail the Pennsylvanian route to only NYC to Pittsburgh on January 27th as originally planned. Amtrak has not set a new date for the end of the Chicago service. Amtrak has also put off changing the timing of the 3 Rivers to a later departure out of New York.
Are you saying that Amtrak is cancelling the Lake Shore and Capitol Limited? No more Amtrak to Chicago?
As Bugs said when he had to take the penguin from Brooklyn to the South Pole, "Ooh, I'm dyin!"
I read it as saying no more Pittburgh to Chicago at some point. There's still the Lake Shore via Albany.
I think I can now breathe again...
Amtrak was going to cut back the Pennsylvanian to a NYC to Pittsburgh run (like it was before 1997 or so) effective Jan 27th due to the elimination of express freight. However, since the Pennsylvanian hauls a lot of NS roadrailers NS and Amtrak got together and for the time being the Pennsylvanian will continue its Philly to Chicago run via Alliance and Cleveland.
The Pennsylvanian used to be a PennDoT funded train from NYC to Pittsburgh making local stops along the PRR Main Line. When Amtrak got the express freight bug up its but it changed the route to Philly to Chicago with a stop in Harrisburg to add about 20 roadrailers. However the 2AM arrival time in Chicago made the train less than popular and it was typically a single coach w/ a food service car. The Pennsylvanian sees heavily discounted Rail Sale fares like 11.82 PHL to CLE or 8.20 CHI to TOL. However the Pennsylvanian was usually more on time than the Three Rivers and provided fast single day service to Cleveland and Alliance. It also provided eastbound daylight service to northern Ohio and Indiana cities like Toledo, Sandusky and Cleveland.
From Destination Freedom located at http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df01062003.shtml
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Amtrak is committed to putting seven Turboliner trainsets into service, according to Amtrak’s Dan Stessel in Washington. New York State paid to have the trains refurbished at SuperSteel Corp. of Glenville, N.Y. in its Schenectady plant, but Amtrak has refused to put the first trainset into service, citing training, missing spare parts and documentation (D:F December 9, 16).
He said the trains SuperSteel is refurbishing are 27 years old. That means it will take time to produce an inventory of spare parts, locate the service manuals and retrain locomotive engineers.
The parts needed to maintain these trains are nonstandard, Stessel said. Before Amtrak begins running the trains, the carrier needs to ensure that there are enough spare parts on hand to keep them running, he explained to the Albany Business Review of December 23.
If needed parts aren’t on hand, a train would have to be taken out of service while waiting for a part to be made, he said.
“It is in everyone’s interest to give them a couple more weeks for SuperSteel to give us the parts to build an inventory,” Stessel said.
Amtrak also wants to make certain that crews will have the technical manuals they need to operate and repair the trains and that the train crew have time to train on the equipment, he said, adding, “It’s like the difference between flying a 727 and a 757.”
Amtrak officials are “working through the issues” that caused New York state Transportation Commissioner Joseph Boardman to go public in November with complaints about Amtrak’s commitment to high-speed rail traffic upstate, Stessel said.
Boardman sent a letter to Amtrak Chairman John Robert Smith (who is also NCI’s chairman) complaining that the passenger rail service was reneging on a deal with the state which would put the seven high-speed Turboliners in service on the Empire Corridor between Niagara Falls to New York City via Albany, the state capital. Boardman went public with the letter, which accused Amtrak of seeking more state dollars while not doing enough to improve rail service.
State officials said they were “pleased” with Amtrak’s response and are working with them, said NYDOT spokeswoman Melissa Carlson.
I remember riding a turboliner between NY and Albany in the late '80s. This train was sweet. It would be cool to have them back in service.
The "spare parts" were not funded (nor required of the contract) nor was the "track improvements" necessary to run the trains. Whoops.
From Destination Freedom located at http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df01062003.shtml
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As part of its bid to survive, Amtrak is asking California and other states to sell Congress on a new state-federal cost-sharing plan.
Amtrak’s staff has outlined a possible plan calling for states to pay operating costs for the first time of in-state lines like the San Joaquin and for the federal government to pay most of the capital costs for new or upgraded service. In California, the state pays most of the operating cost and well over half the capital costs of those lines.
That varies nationally, with some states paying nothing to run their in-state lines and varying amounts of capital costs, reported the Desert Sun on December 30.
As outlined by Amtrak, the federal government would continue to pay the cost of long-distance trains like the Sunset Limited, which runs through the Coachella Valley, and the Coast Starlight, which operates through Monterey County.
Gil Mallery, Amtrak’s vice president of planning and business development, said the plan recognizes that the current way of financing Amtrak can’t continue. Last year, the nation’s passenger rail line suffered what he called a “near-death experience” when it almost ran out of money.
“Amtrak’s current business model is not sustainable,” Mallery said.
Mallery said Amtrak isn’t lobbying states to sign on to any particular plan, even though he has outlined the new state-federal proposal for officials from 27 states in a series of meetings.
He said that as part of the upcoming debate on Amtrak’s future, states need to present Congress with a plan to keep their in-state trains running.
“The issue is not about Amtrak but about what the states, such as California, want in terms of their transportation system and what is their relationship with the federal government,” Mallery said.
California paid about $73 million in 2002 to help cover most of the cost of operating three Amtrak trains beyond what is collected in fares, said Dennis Trujillo, spokesman for CalDOT.
The federal government still pays about 5 percent each of the operating cost of the San Joaquin, which runs between Bakersfield and the San Francisco Bay area, and the Capitol Corridor, which operates between the Bay Area and the Sacramento region, he said.
He added federal funds cover about a third of the cost of the Pacific Surfliner, operating in coastal Southern California.
When it comes to the cost of new track, better signs and stations, California has been paying the bulk of the costs – $1.7 billion out of the total $2.7 billion spent since service began in 1976.
While the new plan outlined by Mallery would cost the state some additional operating funds, it could be a big gain in capital costs. The plan calls for an 80 percent federal and 20 percent state split of these costs, which, he said, is similar to the way they share highway and other transportation related costs.
Eventually, this would mean about a $3.5 billion federal pot of money for in-state capital construction projects nationwide.
“If that (cost-sharing plan) is the result, it would be silly for us not to support it,” Trujillo said of the Amtrak proposal.
He said Caltrans officials are studying the plan and Amtrak’s future, but stressed that it’s far too early for the state to take a position on any plan. He said the state needs more information on various options, other states’ views and the federal outlook.
Mallery acknowledged that states are far from settled on his proposal, which he stressed isn’t a formal Amtrak board plan, or any proposal.
“There are almost as many proposals from states as there are states,” Mallery said. What’s important, he stressed, is that states, as well as the federal government, seriously address this issue if they want to keep Amtrak running in their states.
He said the issue is particularly important for states like California, which already heavily subsidizes very popular in-state trains.
That compares with a state like New York, where the federal government covers the entire $50 million annual operating cost beyond farebox collections for the Empire line. The reason: the New York line was part of the original Amtrak system.
Generally, he told a recent California train conference, Western states pay more for their in-state service because they got into the system later.
“The enthusiasm for this increase dramatically increases as you move from the East toward the West,” Mallery said of his proposal for states to pay operating costs for in-state lines.
With its popular in-state trains and existing subsidy program, he said, California is Amtrak’s most important state partner and it hopefully will help lead the effort to develop a viable new financing system for Amtrak.
From Destination Freedom located at http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df01062003.shtml
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Richmond, Va., planners want to find out whether the railroads that run to Ashland, Petersburg and Midlothian could help address some of the region’s future transportation needs. Virginia’s DOT has hired consultants Parsons Brinckerhoff to study the potential costs, funding sources, corridors and riders of a commuter and light rail system for the Richmond area.
The $150,404 study, which is being paid for with federal money for the Richmond Area Metropolitan Planning Organization (MPO), will provide the region’s most extensive look at the service, officials said, according to the Richmond Times-Dispatch of December 31.
“It’s a study we’ve been trying to get going for years,” said Daniel N. Lysy, director of transportation for the Richmond Regional Planning District Commission, which provides staff for the Richmond Area MPO.
Viktoria Badger, a transportation planner for Richmond who is helping to guide the study, called it “futuristic” and said local officials will be the ones who decide whether anything comes of it.
“It will depend on the priorities of the jurisdictions and the development densities that occur,” she said.
The MPO’s study committee is expected to meet in late January to review the proposed corridors. The study is expected to be finished by year’s end.
As recommended, commuter rail service would be studied along existing rail lines from Main Street Station to several outlying areas. They are the White Oak Technology Park and Richmond International Airport in eastern Henrico County, as well as Hanover Courthouse, the Village of Midlothian, Ashland and Petersburg.
Light rail, which would use a separate right-of-way, would be studied along several broad corridors – White Oak to Short Pump by way of Broad Street; Main Street Station to Chesterfield Towne Center; and Maymont to Lewis Ginter Botanical Garden.
Having a corridor included in the study “doesn’t rule any out in the future or rule any of those in,” Lysy said. He also noted that the study will assume that development will occur as it is recommended by each locality’s comprehensive plan.
CSX and Norfolk Southern, which own the rail lines in question, are willing to discuss starting a commuter service in the Richmond area.
“It’s not out of the question,” said Susan Bland, spokeswoman for Norfolk Southern, however, “it needs to be transparent to our freight operations.”
Even if officials can show commuter or light rail would work in the region, competition for funding is expected to be fierce. Virginia is spending about $25 million on mass transit, buying everything from buses to supporting the Virginia Railway Express in Northern Virginia.
“Funding for a rail project, I would say, is in the realm of possibility, but it’s a difficult thing,” said Charles Badger, assistant director for the state Department of Rail and Public Transit and husband of Viktoria Badger of Richmond.
James W. Dunn, president of the Greater Richmond Chamber of Commerce, applauded the region for looking at rail to address its future transportation needs but said the region will need to change how it plans for residential and employment growth if the service is to take hold.
While each locality has a plan to guide its growth, Dunn said the cumulative effect of those plans leaves much to be desired.
“Look what’s going on right now in Chesterfield,” he said. “People are calling for a moratorium for housing developments that are already approved, and we’re about to open another growth corridor” with the final leg of state Route 288, through western Chesterfield, as well as eastern Powhatan and eastern Goochland.
Dunn said businesses that are considering whether to invest in the region are starting to ask about the region’s long-term growth strategy. “Frankly, we don’t have a good answer for that today,” he said.
From Destination Freedom located at http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df01062003.shtml
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Those half-dozen GP-49s Florida Tri-Rail picked up from Norfolk Southern for a song last year will be rebuilt and replace existing locomotives (D:F December 9).
Brad Barkman, Tri-Rail’s operations director, told D:F “The GP49s were purchased for a remanufacture program we hope to begin in July 2003.”
He said, “These will be completely remanufactured retaining the 12-cylinder 645F3b engines, adding a head-end power (HEP) unit of about 400KW in the long hood, air conditioning and convert the short hood to low nose,” which will then become the front.
Barkman noted Tri-Rail paid “$150,000 each,” and will pay another $1.5 million for remanufacture.” So, that works out to $900,000 for the tired power and another $9 million to rebuild, bringing the tab to a total of $9.9 million, which is still cheaper than brand-new locomotives by about $2 million.
He said the engines “Were all in Chattanooga when I first looked at them,” but he did not know which regions of the country the engines came from.
“These units were new in 1980 from EMD and are anywhere from 12 to 15 years newer than Tri-Rail’s 801-805 currently in the fleet, which were remanufactured in the late 1980s from components from the mid-1960s.”
He explained, “Three of these units will replace the 801-803, and, later, the 804,” their fourth unit.
“The remaining two will be fleet addition, increasing our locomotive fleet from 10 to 12.”
From Destination Freedom located at http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df01062003.shtml
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The United Kingdom’s railways would not be reprivatized under an incoming Conservative government.
The ‘Tories,’ as the political party is called in Great Britain, said there could be no revival of Railtrack, which was put into administration last year, ends the ideological debate over railways, according to a December 23 BBC report.
“Administration” is similar to receivership in the U.S.
With such a new consensus, the focus can be put on how to raise standards for passengers, they argued.
Not-for-profit company Network Rail has now taken over the UK’s railways after former Transport Secretary Stephen Byers put Railtrack into administration.
Conservative shadow transport secretary Tim Collins explained why his party did not want to reinvent Railtrack.
“If Conservatives claim credit, as we should, for the fact that privatizing the operating companies has produced the biggest rise in passenger numbers for many decades, we have to accept, I’m afraid, that Railtrack did not produce the benefits we had hoped for.
“We also have to accept that London’s city government has made it clear that following the collapse of Railtrack, there is no prospect of them underwriting a further flotation.”
Collins said the decision offered stability for the rail industry.
“Labor [political party] accepted that the train operations belong in the private sector. We accept today there can be no return for Railtrack.
“That means the sterile ideological battle over who owns what in rail is over and we can concentrate on what frankly matters far more, which is improving the unacceptable level of customer services.”
That ideological debate had produced a “no score draw,” he suggested.
With Conservative leader Iain Duncan Smith signaling his party would aim to cut taxes, Collins rejected claims this moved against attempts to improve public services.
Collins argued, “If you look at the record, Conservative governments in the past have cut taxes but invested more on rail in every one of our 18 years in government than Labor planned to invest in rail in every one of their ten-year transport plan years.”
Typical - the Tories are generalising over the TOCs! They are of varying degrees of success: (NB - of the worst four, three are bus companies)
THE BAD:
Connex: celebrated failure, have just cost the SRA another Ł58 million to avoid them going bust again as service quality declines.
Stagecoach (SWT): the greatest disaster in the South of England since
Connex.
National Express (Central, Midland Mainline, ScotRail, Wales & Borders, Wessex): cost cuts, no vision, no foresight, completely in it to screw the railways for all the money they're worth.
Arriva (aka N'arive pas): the train company who for cost cutting reasons sacked a load of drivers then wondered why they didn't have enough to run all the trains in their timetable. Oops.
THE AVERAGE:
Virgin (half-Stagecoach): got a vision, pity about their lack of foresight. Best known for running trains along a sea-wall with vital parts on the outside of the train non-resistant to sea water. Oops.
Govia: haven't been around long enough to create a reputation.
THE GOOD:
Chiltern (Laing - an engineering company bankrolling the former BR management): probably the most adventurous and progressive franchise, although the timetable has been rather messed up in places by track sharing with Virgin and the abysmal Central Trains (National Express).
FirstGroup (aka LastGroup - Gt Eastern, Gt Western, North-Western): basically good, pity they don't get on with the Virgin-dominated SRA.
GNER: providing an excellent service on the ECML, now with some Eurostars!
C2C/LTS: even the misery line to Shoeburyness now has some decent service.
Has anything of much interest happened on the Isle of Wight railway? The last I heard was that Stagecoach were giving the 1938s a rebuild but I haven't heard anything since.
-Robert King
Everything's still running reliably and punctually (it's the only line more punctual than the Chiltern Line). Even Stagecoach can't f*** up the Oylawoy. I think it's a pity there's only one line left there - you can see the network of lines there was on the Oylawoy on this section of an LSWR Cariage map, together with the Soton-Cowes and Pompey-Ryde ferries and the lines all the way into Waterloo:
http://www.semg.org.uk/sr_map/lswrmap3.html
Rehabbing the 38s is a good idea - they work, which is more than can be said for a lot of the crap on the rails (eg the class 220/221s on the Dawlish sea wall hehe).
Actually, the LBSCR's map is better than the LSWR's:
http://www.semg.org.uk/sr_map/lbscrmap1.html
Parsons-Brinkerhoff have a press release on their web site that they have a $40 million dollar contract with the MTA to do the engineering on a 1.5 mile extension to the convention center. Was it general knowledge that the line had gotten this far?
Yes, in November or December the papers mentioned that a firm had been chosen to start the engineering work, although the name of the company wasn't released. I figured it was PB.
---Brian
A strange press release.
It says the the extension will go to the Javits Center at 10th Ave and 34th St. There's no Javits Center there, just a McDonald's.
It also says the distance will be 1.5 miles. Well, it's only 1.15 mi. from 7th and 41st to 11th and 34th. That's pretty bad round-off error for an enginneering firm.
It also says the distance will be 1.5 miles. Well, it's only 1.15 mi. from 7th and 41st to 11th and 34th. That's pretty bad round-off error for an enginneering firm.
2 + 2 = 5 for larger values of 2.
There are probably some tail tracks for a storage yard or something.
I suspect that 11th Avenue has the LIRR yard in that area. There is a issue moving in under and around the Tunnel and the Station.
Elias
Isn't the 7 Line so deep it wouldn't interfere with the LIRR?
I think that as the LIRR goes west it rises because the trains end up at an open air train yard on the west side at West St., south of the Javits center. The #7 should have plenty of time to dive as it heads west from 8th Ave.
By the way, I think the proposal by Guiliani was for a 3 track station by 38th St. east of 11th Ave, the street on the north side of the center. If I remember right, and if this is still the same plan, then it would not cross the LIRR or any tracks. Does anyone know if this is true?
I see that Elias helpfully included a map. If the #7 is to make it to the Javits (and not just 10th Ave.) then it would need duck under the Amtrak/NYC Hudson Line tracks (open cut) but probably above the ramps for the Lincoln tunnel connections. I guess it could be done.
The whole line they are engineering probably sounds like it is going to Javits, turning down 10th and on to 34th. That may be where the extra 0.4 milesw comes from also. The trackage after the Javits station is probably for storage, and not revenue trains.
The main question on the route when this came up last year seemed to be how close to put it to Penn Station. There were stories about having the line run under either the IRT Seventh Ave. line or the IND eighth Ave. line, but both would be far costlier to dig out a two-track tunnel while keeping the other lines running above, and running it under Seventh Ave. would mean relocating the No. 7 train's Time Square station.
Running it down Ninth Ave. and then turning west on 34th would seem to be the best compromise, with the plans to move Amtrak to the Farley Post Office a stop on either side of the 34th and Ninth curve would be closer to Penn Station than it is now, and they could also put a stop on the west side of the Port Authority bus terminal, between 41st and 39th streets.
They should have a station at 12th Ave. and build an enormous ferry terminal there. Would be much better way to get cross town than all those NY Waterway buses.
Oh, this came out in October. Anyhow, here is the text of it:
news
BRUCE ROSS ASSOCIATES INC.
FROM: PARSONS BRINCKERHOFF
One Penn Plaza
New York, NY 10119
CONTACT: Bruce Ross
Bruce Ross Associates Inc.
212/768-1155
PB TEAM TO DESIGN MANHATTAN TRANSIT LINE EXTENSION
NEW YORK, NY – The New York Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) has awarded a $40.8 million contract to a team led by Parsons Brinckerhoff (PB) to design an extension of the No. 7 subway line in Manhattan. The PB team includes STV Incorporated and The Louis Berger Group.
The project would extend the No. 7 line southwest by 1.5 miles, from Times Square to the Jacob Javits Convention Center at 10th Avenue and 34th Street. The project is intended to open up new development on Manhattan’s West Side.
The PB team will be responsible for completing an Environmental Impact Statement for the proposed extension along with preliminary engineering documents that include alternatives analyses for the overall route, station locations and design scenarios. A comprehensive public involvement program will be implemented as well.
The preliminary design study is being funded by the MTA but the City of New York is expected to pay the construction cost, which is undetermined. The preparation of the EIS and preliminary engineering is expected to take four years.
Founded in New York in 1885, Parsons Brinckerhoff is a leading transportation engineering firm with 9,300 professionals and support staff in more than 250 offices worldwide. The founder of the firm, William Barclay Parsons, designed the original line of New York’s Interborough Rapid Transit (IRT) subway, which opened in 1904. (www.pbworld.com)
STV is a leading firm offering engineering, architectural, planning, environmental and construction management services from offices nationwide. (www.stvinc.com). The Louis Berger Group, of East Orange, New Jersey, is a worldwide leader in the consulting field, offering professional services in the areas of engineering, program management, planning, environmental services, and construction management (www.louisberger.com).
###
10/3/02
A four year contract, meaning completion by 2005 or 2006 at the earliest.
There is no construction money for this subway in the current Capital Plan, so I suppose it doesn't matter that the design and engineering phase is given that timetable. If this extension is to be built, then the 2005-2009 Capital Plan will have to include the Capial funds.
Oh, so good... I can't wait to see groundbreaking for this project!
The plan is to have the City pay for it with Tax Increment Financing (the increased property taxes around the line as it triggers development). Thus the 7 doesn't compete with 2nd Ave. or East Side Access. At least that's the plan.
Yes, I've read that too.
Lets see if we get the olympics. If not don't hold your breath with ever seeing the extension
I think the Olympics would help, but in the long run Javits (and expanding Javits) is more important.You're overestimating the impact of the Olympics.
With New York City in the running for the Olympics, maybe this is prudent money being spent to intice more simpathy for winning the Olympic nod.
avid
Just one day I'd like to read SubTalk without seeing various rants and raves (or anything, for that matter) about Joe Bruno. Man, do you guys have a hardon about this guy!
If there were a message board about your house, would you want to talk about your mortgage banker?
Not every day.
Man, do you guys have a hardon about this guy!
Dave, how dare you speak about such things! : )
It's nice to see that there's someone here who agrees with me, I posted pretty much the same thing yesterday.
Much as we might wish the good senator would disappear, he has more influence over the NYC subways than anyone else at the moment. Moreover, he is unsympathetic to the cause (to put it mildly!)
So, I don’t think he will disappear from our discussions anytime soon.
John
Warning: these 95 were taken on Tuesday and Wednesday, and DO NOT include the photos I took on Thursday of the Queensboro Plaza area. Those are taking a while to sort by car class and station, etc, and hopefully will be up in a few days.
11 R-33ML (Page 9+)
03 R-33WF (Page 1)
25 R-36WF (Page 1+)
03 R-40 (Page 4)
38 R-62 (Page 3+)
04 R-62A (Page 9)
06 R-142A (Page 1+)
01 Astoria-Ditmars Blvd (Page 1)
04 LIRR (Page 3+)
Take Pride,
Brian
Nice pictures. I looked at the LIRR section. How about some captions on these? (Station names, etc.)
The station with the tower in the backround is Mineola.
I'm working on it.
---Brian
It's been a very busy week so I haven't had a chance to write much yet.
I was down in Philadelphia and New York city for a few days each. For the most part, it was a very good trip. The condition of the #7 line redbirds in New York was surprising. I didn't expect them to be as bad as they were in terms of ride quality.
The interior design of the Broad St. cars in Philadelphia was interesting. Between all of the stainless steel and the bars on some of the windows, it did conjure up the image of jail in my mind... With respect to Philadelphia's streetcars, I think the basic design is good but that it could do with some refinement. The state of the electric buses that were running in the southern part of the city left a lot to be desired - among other things, the wheel wells were being held to the inside walls of one bus I was on with duct tape and, with few exceptions, the windows were horribly scratched.
-Robert King
Welcome to the United States!
For the next few weekends, southbound A trains will be using the express track on the Liberty el. That cuts them off from the Lefferts branch, which will have shuttle bus service instead. All A trains will run south towards Aqueduct.
Will Far Rock have twice its usual weekend service or will the extra A trains, the ones that would otherwise be going to Lefferts, take the place of the Rock Park shuttle and run to Rock Park? I'd guess the latter. In either case, this is a great railfanning opportunity -- don't miss it!
Damn, see what I'm missing this weekend! Although I have ridden through on the express track there about the time I took this photo. I think it was probably the year before this photo was taken, because I remember it being on a R-44 (so it must've been an A), but I didn't have my camera with me. Although I remember getting off at Broad Channel, and catching a Rockaway Park train afterwards, so I forgot exactly how the service was running.
Hmmm, I have a similar photo:
Mind the gap!
LOL! Wow the stations must have shrunk when they painted them! (The station conditions on the Rockaway Park end sure have improved since my photo in 1992 at Seaside).
Actually though, when I got off that train and snapped that photo, it was the last time I was ever on an R30 (the return trip was on an R32 or R38).
Being on that "#13" train last month must've been a treat. (Time warp also considering your Redbird says it could get from Beach 90th to Atlantic via the Fulton/Liberty El.....)
STAND CLEAR OF THE CLOSING DOORS, THIS IS AN ERA EXCURSION TRAIN, NEXT STOP, ROCKAWAY PARK.
I sure do have a good smile (on left side, walking). Too bad we did not use the #1 Brighton on the rollsign, then again I may start foaming and would have to leave the excursion at Beach 90th St. lol
Is there a GO for the Local track? What about Hudson St? Will the train stop at Hudson then switch to the Center track?
I remenber about 25 years ago, A Go called for service north bound to enter the Pitkin Yard, reverse direction and then to Euclid Ave. This by-passed Hudson and Grant. I missed my chance to see the 76th St. bellmouth.
avid
There is no Hudson Street, it's called 80th Street.
It's about time they stop confuzzling people and pull off the name signs like they did on the 7 at 33, 40 and 46.
Once upon a time there was a station called Hudson Street. Then in 1916 NYC decided to unify the numbering of Streets in Queens. To avoid confusion stations were allowed to have the 2 names of the street. That is why there are stations called:
80 St/Hudson, 88 St/Boyd 104 St/Oxford, 111 St/Greenwood, 104 St/Alburtis, 69 St/Fisk, 52 St/Lincoln, 46 St/Bliss, 39 St/Lowery, 33 St/Rawson.
And the term Greenwood Ave. was still very much in use among people in Ozone Park in the early 1970s.
Greenwood is still used in the early 2000's.
This system was fine in the years immediately following the changeover, but are useless now.
And I am the last person you have to explain this to, although I appreciate the effort.
I'm not just explaining it to you. It's also for anyone who is reading this.
Those street names were changed over 75 years ago! Get over it, people.
Its 40 St, not 39 St. Also they had 39 Av/Beebe, 36 Av/Washington and 30 Av/Grand. Even though this wasn't renamed you had the bizarre 104/102 St on the J until they got smart and dropped the 102 St, then you have the stations in the Rockaways on the A with the different names of areas assisting the Beach xx Sts.
DOn't forget 23rd Street/Ely Avenue also.
As for 104-102 Street, the answer is simple. The station used to be called just 102 Street, and had an exit at each end of the station 102 and 104. Then they closed the 102 Street exit. Later they added the 104 (which is really where the exit is). I guess they kept the 102 on the name to avoid confusion. It's been so long that anyone remembered the 102, so finally they were able to drop it.
There are many stations who's name doesn't even have an exit anymore. I started a whole thread about this months ago, but I forgot what it was called.
Junius on the 3 is a station who's "Junius Street" mezzanine is closed, and it uses the other mezzanine only.
There are many others, but it's too late, and I'm too tired to even think about others right now. It was an interesting subject though.
A lot of stations on the J:Bway elevated would fit under this category.
Okay, I'm a little more awake than my last post. Yes, the J has a few of them.
I know we have done this in the past, but I always like this subject, and I can't remember many of them anymore - So - Here's some of the stations I can think of off-hand that have a station name that doesn't have an exit anymore, or was changed from it's original name to match that change, or which only has a part time exit at it's namesake station:
-Eastern Parkway/J - Well it's Broadway Junction now, Eastern Parkway exit long gone anyway.
-104 Street/J - Was also 104-102 Street. Originally just 102 Street
-Junius Street/3 - Junius mezzanine abandoned, Powell Street mezzanine used instead.
-148th Street/3 - exit really at 149th Street
-Jefferson Street/L - main exit with mezzanine at George Street. Jefferson side has only "egg-cutter" controls.
-2nd Avenue/F,V - main fare control is at 1st Avenue
-West 4th - I believe has no exit onto West 4th Street, which I don't think ever even had an exit!
-Lorimer Street/L - Main exit is at Union, only part time at Lorimer.
I know there are many more. Many elevated/outdoor stations are easy to rectify this situation. They can put a double sign up for a while, and slowly phase out the original name like they did at 104th Street/J. Underground stations have to just deal with it, becasue many times it would involve destroying/covering mosaics which would not be a good idea. For exmple, I don't like what they did at 138th street. The MH's are still in the mosaic band, but the Mott Haven tablet mosaics are covered. (Interestingly also, in this case a smart idea, Canal Street/Q,W was originally "Broadway". The original BMT Mosaics had "Broadway" tablets with "B" in the ceiling band - but of course that doesn't fit here because Broadway and Canal both have exits, and it wasn't changed for that reason)
However at Junius Street/3, they could easily call it Powell-Junius Street, and over time drop the Junius which would just be a simple sign change. (Although I question their original intention of abandoning the Junius Street mezzanine, which would have been the better option to keep open, as it would have allowed a fairly easy upgrade to an in system transfer with the L at Livonia Ave).
At the risk of rehashing an old thread, 148th Street on the 3 never had a 148th Street exit. It couldn't ever have had a 148th Street exit, since it's oriented along what would be 149th Street. (Various explanations have been given for why it might have been called 148th Street, none of which I find terribly convincing. I prefer to call it Lenox Terminal, even though the TA is phasing out that name and it, too, is somewhat confusing, in that the station isn't on Lenox Avenue either.)
I took a stroll up CPW a few weeks ago, checking out the various station mezzanines along the way. I was surprised to find that the full-time 96th Street entrance is tiny, with a booth crammed in and no room for even a single MVM or MEM, while the part-time 97th Street entrance is much larger and has MVM's.
It's tempting to cover the station in boxes reading "149th St / 7th Avenue Terminal" and claim it's art. It's even more tempting to demolish it and build a new connection via the Polo Grounds tunnel to the Jerome El.
It's tempting to Place Bedford Park Blvd-200 St signs on the D and 4 lines, it is tempting to order "E 200 St" signs from the NYCDOT and replace them over the Bedford Park Blvd signs east of Webster Avenue to line up with the Botanical Gardens address as well (200 St and Southern Blvd)
Shouldn't the Botanical Garden be on Kazimiroff Blvd?
-Stef
"-West 4th - I believe has no exit onto West 4th Street, which I don't think ever even had an exit!"
At West 4th there is booth N80 and N81 at the north end and N83 at the south end. I think N82 (The missing booth) once upon a time MIGHT have been in the middle mezzazine at the station. And the street right up stairs in the middle IS West 4th Street.
N81 doesn't exist any longer. Replaced with high wheels.... I had a L/R some weeks ago which ended with the closing of the gates at that location.
-Stef
N81 is the booth that's there now. N80 is the booth replaced with high wheels. Considering N83 is the booth at the south end, I have to assume N82 was somewhere in the middle of the mezzazine.
You've got it all mixed up. On the side of the station leading down into the northbound A/C/E platform is N80.
N81 was on the southbound side.
-Stef
Douce Man -
Where was N65?
-Stef
34/8
Lower Level in Middle.
The site is now I believe Lost Property office.
Where was:
Booth A1?
Booth C5?
Booth F1?
Booth H34?
Booth K11?
Booths N96 and N97?
Booths N106 and N107?
Booth R209?
A1 - Fare Controls at abandoned portion of Queensboro Plaza (BMT)
C5 - Lawrence Street, N and R (BMT)
F1? Unknown
H34 - Bushwick Ave, L (BMT)
K11 - Bridge-Jay St on the Myrtle El (BMT)
N96 and N97 - Bway-Nassau on the A (IND)
N106 and N107 - Court Street, Transit Museum (IND)
R209 - City Hall (IRT)
-Stef
This is very interesting. Is there a list like this that anyone knows of posted onlune somewhere?
I don't think there is an offical list. These booths I mentioned are from project I had where I wrote out my own TA Station Dept. Phone book. After I finished the book, I had sheets left over and I was wondering about missing booths.
Close!
The 2 booths at Lawrence St are C3 and C4
Where was C5?
Bushwick-Aberdeen is H33. Atlantic is H35.
Where was H34?
The 2 booths at Bridge-Jay was K6 and K7
Where was K11?
Booth F1 was only abondoned the last 25-30 years.
I have forgotten my abandoned stations!
C5 is Myrtle Ave
H34 is at Bway Junction? Where?
J19 is at the closed end of the J platform at the Junction, so where would H34 be located?
K11 is Grand Avenue
F1? Fort Hamilton Pky on the Culver Shuttle. If that is the case, this should mean the Culver Line Booths to Neptune Av had the BMT designations prior to being put under IND control.
-Stef
J19 is at the closed end of the J platform at the Junction. What was the booth number at the other end of the platform at Eastern Parkway on the J. Not that I have an answer, I've always wondered about that. J20 is at Alabama.
H34 was at the south end of Broadway-Junction on the L. In the old underpass that was there. I don't know if the booth was at the underpass of on the ground.
I figure that on the Culver Line the booths F4 to F19 are now N547 to N562.
Did Chauncey always have only one booth? Perhaps Eastern Parkway on the J might have had two abandoned booths. I was thinking of J18.
-Stef
Chauncey had 2 booths. J17 and J18 which is closed. Eastern Pkway had 2 booths. One was near the tower. The other was by the stairs that go up to transfer with the L and the A and C. The mezzazine is still visable from the street.
J20 is Alabama Ave. J21 is Van Siclen Ave.
I thought that closed Mezzanine was J19. The only thing I can come up with is there had to be a J19A.
-Stef
Unless someone else has an answer, I'd have to agree.
Theer are tons of missing booths in the system. I am planniogn a page on "the Ghosts of Transit Past" which will be a listing of long gone booths. Stef and Douce- e mail me off-site.
A preview: All the J stations from Hewes to Chauncey had two booths--the second booth is at the clsoed end and a walk udner the structure will shwo thr second mezz. Eastern Parkway (Now called Broadway Jct) has two clsoed mexxanines: teh one closer to Chaucney is is nwo used fro East NY Flagging and the one closer to the Transfer to the IND and L lien is used for a supervisor's office.
DeKalb ont he L had two moe booths as did Jefefrson and Halsey. Int he Bronx is Jackson on the 2 Uptown and dont forget the 1- 207 to 242 (except 242) had booths on both sides.
Manhattan- 23 and 8 had booths at 24 st and a booth uptown at 25 st.
72 and CPW South end also has a closed exit (with booth). Stayt tuned for the forthcoming page.
I'm looking forward to it.
-Stef
I need your help as well as Douce Man's. Both of you, please e-mail me off-site so we can get started. I'd use both of your names along with Peggy's who is doing the project. I am donating the e-mail and computer time.
Please respond as soon as possible- **off-site**
She does the leg work and I am the brains!
You probably know this, but Union Square had a nearly full time booth that served the entrance on the south side of 14th between 4th Ave and Broadway.
It also had a less frequently open booth that served the west side of Union Square East at 15th St.
To the plus side, there is a relatively new booth at the east side of Union Square East at 15th.
I have long been in favor of changing the name of 138th Street station to "138th St-Mott Haven" and exposing the four tablets (2 on each side) nearest the central exits. Also I would expose the other tablet at 149th Street-Concourse that reads "Mott Avenue" or maybe change the name to 149th St-Mott Avenue though that is a reach, since there really isn't a Mott Avenue there any more.
wayne
***"-Lorimer Street/L - Main exit is at Union, only part time at Lorimer."***
This is going to be a little nit-picky. Yes, Lorimer Street/L the
only 24/7 entrance/exit is via Union Avenue on the IND 'G' Mezzanine.
Now there is only one fare control entrance for both lines. But IIRC,
there was one booth, but IND and BMT turnstiles on the mezzanine.
So what would the station be named "Union Avenue" or "Grand Street/
Metropolitan Avenue". [more below about Grand/Metro].
***"I know there are many more. Underground stations have to just deal with it, becasue many times it would involve destroying/covering mosaics which would not be a good idea."***
Yes but Metropolitan Avenue/Grand Street on the 'G' was renovated and
the Grand Street still maintained. Long closed, just the location of
a "Transit Police District". Even when Grand Street end on the "GG"
was opened, the exit was at Hope Street and Union Avenue, a block
North of Grand Street.
Like you wrote Chris, some subjects never go away, we just resurrect them.
;-) Sparky
When the station at Lorimer/L line was first opened, the current part time booth was the only booth. The G line didn't come along until about 20 years later.
True.
But before the IND was built, were there exits from both platforms
to Union Avenue? The current exit from the Manhattan Bound exit
doesn't look like it was ever serviced by a booth.
Also when the 14th Street line was built, there was streetcar
service on both Union Avenue and Lorimer Street. Was it built
with exits at each end or just Lorimer Street? It's an odd
configuration, I can understand the rebuild for the transfer from
the IND "GG" to the "BMT" 14th Street-Line and what year was it built?
They were competing system, when the IND was built, so there
would not have been a "free" transfer.
;-) Sparky
Once upon a time I agree there were 2 booths at Lorimer. The main booth was at Lorimer itself. There was also a (small) part time booth (H11) where the high wheel is on the Manhattan Bound Platform. Years ago I was at the high wheel and it was desinated as "H11 - H1". If there was a part time booth on the Canarsie Side, I don't think so. The transfer from the L to the G was probably made after unification in 1940.
I always thought the prefixes were N for IND, B for BMT and R for IRT, what do the other letters stand for?
The booths on the BMT were lettered as follows:
A) Broadway and Nassau Street lines.
B) Brighton and Franklin Shuttle lines.
C) 4th Avenue line.
D) Sea Beach line.
E) West End line.
F) Culver line.
G) Stillwell Ave and W8 St stations.
H) 14 St and Canarsie line.
J) Brooklyn Broadway and Jamaica line.
K) Park Row, Sands St and Myrtle Avenue line.
L) Probably the Lexington-Brooklyn El line.
To complete the alphabet:
N--- IND Booths
R--- IRT Booths and Astoria Line.
Note also: Just because a booth may have a certain letter does not mean it is physically located nearest that division. N95 is Called "Broadway-Nassau Fulton Street". It is designated an IND booth but is nearest the uptown Lexington Ave Line.
The Astoria line had the R booths because the IRT first built the line. However with the Dual Contracts they had to share the trackage with the BMT. In 1949 the Astoria line became BMT. But it was too late to change the booth numbers.
At Fulton St on the 4 line there used to be a R207 which would have been at the N/E of the N/B platform. When the IND was built, the booth number was changed to N95.
Hey Douce Man, if you want to see exact doubles of the stations on the Astoria line, go up to the White Plains line- the stations from Allerton Ave. to 241st St. look just like them, they must have been built at the same time.
>>> The transfer from the L to the G was probably made after unification in 1940. <<<
It was one of the sweeteners for the big 1948 fare hike.
Tom
Probably.
I'll concur with those thoughts, since the tiling of the connector
to the Carnarsie Line from the "GG" is definitely IND style,
including the underpass to the Manhattan Platform.
;-) Sparky
Like you wrote Chris, some subjects never go away, we just resurrect them.
Very true, and this is one of my favorite subjects.
Even when Grand Street end on the "GG"
was opened, the exit was at Hope Street and Union Avenue, a block
North of Grand Street.
I'm curious as to why they would have even included the "Grand Street" name at all. Like you said, not only is Grand Street closed, but it really should have been "Metropolitan-Hope" instead.
Metropolitan Hope would have been a cool name!
Sounds like the name of a charitable organization, or a hospital.
A couple years ago, my wife and a co-worker had to go to a teaching workshop in the Bronx. It was several blocks from 170th and the Concourse. Lacking a sense of direction, and being nervous about walking in a strange neighborhood, she asked me to escort them.
It was then that I discovered the 170th Street station on the D has a rather scary looking exit-only turnstile from the uptown platform at 170th Street, while the full-time, manned entrance is actually at 171st Street. Given that they were directed to walk east on 170th, and 171st is interrupted by Taft HS, they would've REALLY been lost. So we were all extra glad I went along. (That high schools were off that day for some reason, keeping the streets clear, helped, too!)
I suspect that there may have been a full-time exit with stairs DOWN from the platform to the sidewalk of where 170th passes under the Concourse that since closed due to security reasons. According to some native Bronxites, this same arrangement originally existed at 167th, Kingbridge and Bedford Park. There would be trolley- later bus stops, in the underpasses, and part-time exits with conventional mezzanines a block up or down the Concourse. As late as 1974, the old BX20 still stopped in the Kingsbridge tunnel. Now all the crosstown buses use the 'service roads' to cross the Concourse at grade.
Fordham Road is similarly misleading, with the full-time exits a block south at 188th. But in that case, it's the Concourse that has express tunnel lanes going under the east-west street- a reversal of the usual setup.
As to why West 4th is the station's name when there's no exit to it is still a mystery. Maybe they didn't use 8th Street so as to avoid confusion with that stop on Broadway, or West 8th so as to avoid confusion with that stop in Brooklyn. Why not 3rd Street, or West 3rd? There's no duplication there.
I also heard that it was named West 4th to avoid confusion with the proposed South 4th St station. Its strange that thats the only station on the 8th Av line to have West in front of the street.
That's because there were big unrealized Second System plans whereby a new line would extend further east out Houston Street (hence the four tracks at 2nd Avenue) under the river into Brooklyn, where it would shortly arrive at a huge transfer complex known as SOUTH 4th Street. If built, it would've connected with the G at Broadway- and possible other lines.
The WEST 4th designation is so well-known, it's used in casual conversation- mostly by people who had no idea it was specifically chosen to prevent confusion with something that ultimately never existed!
Officially, 180th Street on the 2 and 5, and 149th on the 6 have 'East' in front of their names, but it's never used in conversation or announcements- live or 142. The designation may have been intended to avoid confusion with 149th/Concourse and 180th Street on the defunct 3rd Avenue el.
I always use those two Easts, and I think the R-142's do too. But I never refer to East 241st Street.
Kingsbridge on the D did have an exit to the far(South) side of the Concoursae underpass. It is long closed. Bedford Park as well as Kingsbridge still has an exit to the North side of the underpass.
I went by Bedford Park Blvd recently and also noticed there was an entrance only on the north side, but no trace on the south side. Was there never a south side entrance or was it renovated out of existance?
Once upon a time The station at 102/104 on the J was 102 Street. People in the neighborhood presfered using the entrance at 104 St so that end of the station was where the full time booth was. What confuses people is that the entire mezzzines at Elderts Lane, Forest P'way, 104 Street, 111 Street and 121 Streets were removed. In some cases it was where the street that the station was named after.
Also on certain intersections in Sunnyside, Queens around 39th Avenue
and 43rd/44th Streets, both names appear on the green street signs.
The street number with the name beneath it in the 21th Century.
;-) Sparky
The numbers are "current" designations. Some community leaders reject the numbers and stick with the names (poor souls still haven't gotten over being part of NYC!)
then there are co named streets like
E 149 Street/Eugenio Maria De Hostos Blvd/Mott Avenue
E 238 Street/Nereid Avenue
E 143 Street/Saint Mary's Street
E 200 Street(Bronx Park)/Bedford Park Blvd
W 200 Street/Dyckman Street
Bruckner Blvd/Hellenic Blvd
Southern Blvd/Kazimiroff Blvd(Bronx Park)
Boston Road/Jungle World Road(Bronx Park)
Yes, it appears that that's how it's going to work.
As for Pitkin Yard, you should have come on the Redbird fantrip last month -- we did exactly what you describe (though in the opposite direction).
Well if its using the middle track, I'll probably go tomorrow [barring any change of plans]. I'll post it here and tell you guys what went down but I'm also going to ride the shuttle bus as well. If I leave early, I might ride the L train shuttle bus between Myrtle Av and Broadway Junction, im other words I might be on a all day 'field trip'.
Whenever they have GO's where the shuttle buses replace trains via the Rockaways, ALL service goes to Lefferts so if they're smart, they would run at regular headways and alternate in the Rockaways. I'm definitely waiting for a R32 or R38 of course for this 8-).
I notice they don't bother to say anywhere that there's no service from Rockaway Blvd to the Rockaways.
I was on the A Train today (Manhattan Bound) and on the roolsign, it said it was coming from Rockaway Park, Queens.
-AcelaExpress2005
Its probably going back to Rockaway Park when its returning from 207 St. I noticed that they seem to use R38's most of the time on the Rockaway Park trains.
Back to the subject, we're wondering if some A's are going to run to Rockaway Park on the next couple of weekends since there is a GO where shuttle buses replace trains from 80 St to Lefferts Blvd.
I just checked the NYCT website under service advisories/S Blue line. It reads "No Diversions Scheduled"
But NYCT does not tell you ALL the service diversions anyway, like 2 weekends ago when Manhattan bound A trains ran express from Euclid to B'way/ENY, if you clicked on the C line, it also said "No diversions Scheduled". Manhattan bound C service would also have been affected by the same G.O. at the A line.
If this was a late night GO [which it probably was], then there would be no reason to post the diversion under the C train since C's end around 11pm. I agree with that, they don't tell ALL the diversions or change them at the last second.
A few months back, there was a J train GO that had shuttle buses replacing trains running from Crescent St to Jamaica Center, and when I get there, its running normal :-\.
I'm sure some of you guys remember this. I rode the F shuttle bus in September & was supposed to have a express bus running non stop from Hoyt St to Church Av, what happens all of a sudden they say its not running ALL buses make all stops, and it added up to THIRTY minutes of extra time, especially when we got stuck on heavy traffic on Smith St. They need to put MORE detail in what's going on.
In the earlier post, I stated it was a weekend G.O., not a late-nighter. So C service was diverted on the express track all day on Saturday and Sunday.
Just another day riding the subways....
If the GO started at 12:01AM, there would have been nothing listed under the C line. Why? Because the C line doesn't run after 11 PM!
I was on a R38 today.
I had a feeling you were on a R38. A R44 heading to/from Rockaway Park doesn't happen too much as much as a R38[from what I've seen].
You sure? Every time I've seen a Rock Pk A train it has always been an R44 with the exception of one R32 that I saw once.
From what I've seen, I always saw R38's running the Rockaway Park trips. I'm sure the other car classes run there as well but I see 38's mostly.
I've only seen R-44's myself. I had concluded that only R-44's ran to Rock Park (whether on the A or on the shuttle), until, on the Redbird fantrip, I noticed an R-38 set in the yard and someone on the train corrected my error.
Five A trains departing every 20 minutes from 6:39 to 7:59 AM, M-F originate from Rockaway Park.
Pardon, the asinine question, but do the five AM 'A' trips run to
207th Street? The signage on the platform at Rockway Park-116th Street
indicates service to 59th Street only.
;-) Sparky
The signs are correct. In fact, one of our SubTalker colleagues is a former MOTORMAN on the Diamond-A... I'm sure he can chime in on the logistics.
The 5 Northbound trains from Rock Park go out of service at 168th Street to avoid tying up D service at 59th Street, sometimes they may operate to Dyckman Street depending on congestion North of 168. Southbound, they go into service at 59, except for emergencies. R44s were used for the Showcases, except for Fridays, which the occasional 32/38 set was used for service. They still run 20 minute intervals to and from Rockaway Park at a laughable 45 MPH :+)
Those trains only run to 59th as the signs say. But I'm not sure how they relay. There's no middle track there that I know of. I think they go to Dyckman and into the yard, but that still doesn't explain why it doesn't allow passengers on until at least 190 or 191 {whatever that stop is.}
Thanks.
Logistically, the closest northbound terminal without going to 207th,
would be 168th.
I think there is away to relay North to South at 59th Street, but
no layover track.
Now another query, do the evening Rockay Park trains originate at 59th Street?
;-) Sparky
Actually the trains terminate at Dyckman Street. Switches north of the station allow the "local" tracks to gain yard access. PM trips begin at 59th. Trains are stored at 207 between the AM and PM.
"Now another query, do the evening Rockay Park trains originate at 59th Street?"
They originate in a yard in upper Manhattan and run light to 59th.
Again, totally unclear why they can't carry people from 168th south to 59th. They have to stay behind the A or D ahead of them anyway.
Yes... I even saw one once with a Grounde Shoe Beam :-)
O.K. Got that.
;-) Sparky
Grounded Shoe Beam
Relive the memories - bring Dolly to Kingston!
IIRC southbound A trains leave the yard (207 or 174) run light to 59 St in place and start picking up customers there.
Only C trains came out of 174 Yard.
I have worked jobs like this before as well.
Some PM rush hour trains to Rockaway Park are put-ins from 207 Yard. They run light (no passengers) until 59th Street and then pick up passengers enroute to Rockaway Park.
There are some put-ins from 174 Yard (located beyond 168th Street where the C relays on Tracks 1 and 2). These trains also run light until they get to 59th Street where they go into passenger service.
The signs are not accurate.
I worked an A job out of Rockaway Park last pick. My train went all the way to 207th Street. Some trains may drop out at Dyckman Street for easy lay-up access to 207 Yard, but to the very best of my knowledge, no train has recently terminated at 59th Street from Rockaway Park.
I loved it when I worked a sita at 59th St.
I'd let a packed far Rock or Lefferts train go so I could my choice of seats.
The R/44s offered little in a railfan window, so I chose the window seat in the center section, facing forward. This is the approximate fulcrum of the car and usually the smoothest seat location.
Strange how I'd see the same people at Rockaway Blvd. that squeezed on at 59th waiting to get on the Rock Park.
I guess they never figured it out.
avid
Some people still don't understand that there is service going to Rockaway Park and those trains are usually not as crowded as trains going to Lefferts or Far Rockaway.
During weekdays, there are 5 A trains that come FROM Rockaway Park during the AM rush and 5 A trains that are going TO Rockaway Park on the PM rush. If you're out there again, stop at a token booth and ask for the Rush Hour A train schedule.
More than likely, all service will run to and from Far Rockaway. There are no plans to drop the Rockaway Park Shuttle and replace them with A trains this weekend.
Ok, I'm getting ready to ride the A train GO today. I'll post what went down during the trip tonight when I come back. See y'all tonight.
I forgot who might have mentioned this (possibly Oren), but did Metro cancel its order of next generation Alstom cars? Somehow I seem to think someone here mentioned that point. Also, would a complete redesign of the WMATA cars be a good idea? I really think, from a railfan's perspective, that the rail system is quite bland with all the cars looking so similar to each other. I really would like to see new car designs in the future for Metro.
"Also, would a complete redesign of the WMATA cars be a good idea? I really think, from a railfan's perspective, that the rail system is quite bland with all the cars looking so similar to each other. I really would like to see new car designs in the future for Metro. "
Unlikely except for paint and cosmetic touches, or ADA compliance enhancements. Washington Metrorail's mission is to serve passengers, 99% of which do not share railfans concerns, and maintenmance costs skyrocket when you have multiple kinds of train cars. As much as I enjoy what I see on this website, my honest advice to any rail manager would be KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) and make things as maintenance-easy as possible, esp. in light of threatened budget cuts.
They didn't cancel the order, they said they would not take up the option for up to 120 additional cars, so only 62 or 64 (reports conflict each other) will show up next year. The 6000 series cars are expected to begin their lives on the Blue Line. Other than the new interior layout, there should be no major differences between the 6000s and the other cars.
For those who posted on my "what is the deepest subway station" post, here's a new installment. What is the highest elevated station in NYC? I going to go ahead and just say Smith & 9th St.'s on the (F)/(G) line. However, I feel Bway Junct. on the (L) is very high too. Which is higher?
Smith-9th is the Highest.
I believe Smith-9 St on the F & G is the highest elevated station [80 feet above ground or something like that].
Smith-9th is the highest above ground level. One of the stations on the 2 line in the Bronx, I'm not sure which one, is the highest above sea level.
What about stations from the past. Is Smith-9th the all time tallest? I know the 9th ave El had some high stations in upper Manhattan, I don't think they were taller than Smith-9th.
What about stations from the past. Is Smith-9th the all time tallest? I know the 9th ave El had some high stations in upper Manhattan, I don't think they were taller than Smith-9th.
Smith-9th had to be built so high in order to avoid interfering with marine traffic on the Gowanus Canal. That's obviously a special circumstance, one that the Manhattan el's would not have encountered.
Smith-9th Street is much higher than B'way-Junction
Does anyone know the highest "trackage" in North America in terms of sea level? NYC is close to sea level and my school, for instance, is built 120 ft. above sea level. (but it is like a normal town so how can you tell?)
I have observed spans of "2-track" trackage out in the deserts of the West (the picture is incredible to note. It seems there are miles and miles of endless track, and all you see is trackage, and a highway interstate (I-40 preferably) with it, and besides that, ... the ol' desert.
I don't know if the freight rails that see I-40 (at ground level, for sea level might be much higher) are very high, but on our trip, the highest elevation mark we saw was 8,810 ft., and that was on a terrain and landscape not suitable for rail (I don't think).
So, does anyone know?
My guess is Denver and Rio Grande Western in Climax, CO (north of Leadville), approx 11,000 feet.
That's just a mining spur, but there is a through route through Tennessee Pass (also north of Leadville), almost 10,000 feet.
I was out for a few hours today, riding the system to see if the new Jan 2003 subway map had left out any stations. So far, I have checked the entire Brighton Line and have found no serious errors.
When I got home, I found that a plain brown paper envelope had been slipped under my door. I opened it eagerly hoping that it was this month's issue of Rat Talk Zine.
Instead there was a note from someone who had visited the 76th Street Station earlier this week and had taken a picture of the station to prove its existence. The note said that the picture was being delivered to me, because they knew I was fair and wouldn't destroy it. Unfortunately, the flash on the camera was broken, so it may be hard to see many details.
I think this photo will put to an end all the vicious rumors about BMTman's sanity.
76th Street Station
Ah, um, I can't see anything.
I think thats the point.....
Right, a little Heypaul humor !
Uh.....you're kidding, right? It's a joke.
No, not at all, he had the camera right up against the concrete wall!
Well, that's the point :-\. He must of took a pic of a room with no lights ;-).
Where is his flash? Also even if it was in a pitch dark room the LEDs of the camera would change the shade of black slightly. Also there will light from the """sidewalk vents""" or reflective light from 100s of feet away. Concrete isn't smooth so some light will get around the lense. IT WOULD NEVER BE A SOLID COLOR!
It was a joke.
I understood that from second 1.
Faster than me. I sat there for a minute staring on the screen, waiting for the photo to load, before I realized it.
So did I. I waited for about 1 minute, same results, nothing.
Chuck Greene
It displayed for me instantaneously :-)
Aw, c'mon, didn't you even read Hey Paul's post? He said, and I quote, in the last sentence: "Unfortunately, the flash on the camera was broken, so it may be hard to see many details."
This is great, this ought to put all those doubters to rest!
Hey Paul,
I'm really sorry but I really think this is the first photo of the station:
Compare it to this photo and tell me what you think:
Gee, the same man at the railfan window. Is it Sallam?
I don't think so. The guy didn't have a camera.
Or an MTA reflective vest!
Or a Tripod! LOL! (with patented Glareguard)
***"Or an MTA reflective vest!"***
well now we know it ain't the BMTman foaming at the railfan window...
maybe it's the "tunnel rat" ... oops, the tunnel man claims never
visiting 76th Street, but he did spend much time at "75" in Brooklyn. >G<
;-) Sparky
Did you ever work in District 23?
No. Never in transit.
Its a fake. Look at the water collect 2 girders from the top of the photo. The second one down has a panel going up with the girder. Compare the to the B&W photo. HA HA
Yeah, a few months ago we were laughing at the diehard "railfan" in those photos and how he has been in the same position for a half a century.
Chris... Did The Sarge create that shot of 76th Street Station or has that been around for a while?... I never saw it before, and got a real bang out of it, especially the front destination sign showing "76th St" ... The shot Steve posted had me going back and forth comparing it to the Sarge's, until I felt that they were different... They are, aren't they??... This should teach me to stop playing around, but it probably won't...
Joe Brennan made a page about 76th Street as a joke (a very convincing one that had all of us fooled) last April Fool's day and the link was posted on Harry's board. Joe Brennan took that photo of 7 Ave and turned it into "76th Street". If you want to see the link of Joe Brennan's page, search Harry's board for 76th Street threads from last spring. I think the one with the link was posted by "davidg" do that may help in finding it. I think someone posted it here also a few weeks ago, but you would have to wade through endless posts to find it. It's not accessable from Joe's mainpage.
Anyway. I think Steve B came up with the original photo of 7th Ave that Joe had "altered" to 76th Street for the well done joke.
This is the site for 76 Street:
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/76st.html
Like many urban legends this one had a grain of truth to it.
I found this while looking up IND Second System on Google:
http://www.dresden-neustadt.com/hosting/beefland/newyork/images/euclid.gif
It's in German. But it shows a route never fully built.
Had there been an attempt to alter the paint scheme on that first R-10 in the doctored photo, it might have done the trick.
Paul ... check the PAINTJOB on that A train ... Holy Ronan Empire ... 70's ... obvious. When it was first posted and 'talkers were squirming, I tried to be reserved and kinda bout "YOU RUBES!!!" by pointing out the fluorescent lighting being out of place for the time (I got my peepee whacked by people INSISTING that the IND had fluorsecent lighting since day one, especially out THERE in Muldaur and Sculleyland) and the FONT differences and the fact that when it was opened, the R10's had been ORDERED, but not DELIVERED ...
And yet, the most OBVIOUS scam has eluded so many. The R10's didn't have the "colors of Dixie" UNTIL the 70's, EVEN in monochrome. Sheesh. :)
HeHe, yeah, I was a part of that stupid flouorescent light thing also. I was so busy trying to figure out why the station had flourescent lights, that I didn't even notice the MTA paint job! No one else did either for a LONG time! ANd this coming from usually eagle-eyed railfans that can easily tell the difference between a R68 or an R68A! That is what made this perfet. They noticed pillars a bit too far from the tracks, flourescent lighting, etc, but didn't notice the obvious MTA paint scheme.
Flawless execution.
Joe Brennan's no sloucher ... and in MY mind, Unca Joe B's a "premium channel" in my own eyes, because of his passion for the Third Avenue EL. I *lived* literally *ON* the third avenue El in my Webster and 204th days because my bedroom window was right NEXT to it. Joe B's no slouch, though ... and while I may spill the beans for fun and torturing those in need, Unca Joe's little tidbit was SO amusing in how many didn't "get it" (headlights? Why? Wasn't until 1951 that the trains got blamed for slackish track crews that headlights were bloted onto many cars - after all, headlights COULD have been "flush-mounted" like they are today if it was ever an ISSUE in "R-contract design."
I might not have known an R7 from an R6-2 when I *RAN* them, but I sure can spot things that were BLATANT. But why ruin the twirl? :)
Not to mention that the Holy Ronan Empire "war between the states" color scheme of the 70's was ACTUALLY tested on REAL TRAINS 30 years earlier, as evidenced by that entire R10 consist. Nah, it was just that pesky DeLorean, running on Mister Fusion, zizzing endlessly throughout the IND mainlines for all those paradoxes. :)
That railfan is Joe Bruno!
--Mark
Nope, not touching THAT one. :)
Sarge... Do you have the original of that photo??... You could make a killing on EBAY or the next ERA meeting with it...
By the way, in the coming months, I hope to present a slide show of 500 spectacular arcs taken at 72nd Street station at all times of the day...
If you're willing to buy a "Mister Microphone," I'd be happy to provide the sound effects. :)
Get a shot of an arc at Covent Ave.
It will be kmown as "The Ark of Convent"
avid
Rim shot!
Moos and neener-neeners, eh?:)
I take it you never had a Mister Microphone ... about all they were good for was crackles, honks and squeals. PERFECT audio accompaniment for bright blue flashes and sparks. Just fire it up, lay it down on top of an FM radio and then leave the room. :)
What about poor old Timmy O'Toole trapped in that well?
Heh. Actually, they holed up Timmy O'Toole in 76th Street station.
No way, Timmy O'Toole was just a handheld radio!
I figured I'd give you the chance to say that Bart Simpson was buried in 76th Street station ... but OK, then I will. Homer bricked him in for selling all of his Duff's ...
No, it was because Bart shook up his Duff using a paint-shaking machine.
I'll bet Mr. Bill is buried there.
Oh no, Mr. Bill, ohhhhhh noooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh Nooooooooooooo sealed in with Mr Sluggo!
What about Mr. Bill's dog, Spot? *L*
ooohhhhhh noooooooooooooooo, Spot.
Spot is probably grawling at Mr Bill and Mr Sluggo.
That's proof enough for me.
I want PROFF!!!
Don't we all. Well there's enough proof [PROFF] there ;-).
Gotcha!!!
It's a conversion done for JoeK's April Fool 2002 page.
Joe scores another dupe.
Paul,
I took the liberty of using Photoshop to lighten that photo, and, as I suspected, you were duped. It is not of 76 St or any station at all; in fact, it's a rare shot of Edward Luciano moments before the Malbone St wreck. Let the speculation continue!
I suspect this is the work of Avid Reader.
No commitment!
avid
ROTFLOL :-) :-) :-)
PS: Line reenactment on Sunday, March 30 at the next "Gathering of
SubTalkers @ Branford". But the cap has to go, it ain't BRT issue.
;-) Sparky
Watch Out Sparky, I might just show up. I was speaking to Mr. T about this last night.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm................
-Stef
Stef,
It's open to all members of Sub Talk. But you have to be a member
or subscribe to membership in BERA. Regular or higher membership
to obtain handle time [piloted, if neccessary]. If you are not
a member of Branford, go to BERA.ORG for application and bring it
with you on Sub Talk Sunday, March 30. A nominal participation
fee is required from all current members, who participate.
This is not a Museum Sponsored Event. It is handled by the
3/4 toners and we are responsible for the "Charter Fee" for the day.
Further information, email me direct.
PS-Stef, I hoped you wern't bored yesterday.
;-) Sparky
I understand. Hope to make it!
As for the bored meeting, Thurston was bored, while I was freezing my buns on the SMEE. No one to play with....
-Stef
Hey Stef, how are the door chimes on 6688 activated? I didn't hear anything while working its doors back in October.
I know the answer to that one, but I'll sit back and watch Stef SMACK ya for blasphemy. :)
Watch out! I think someone's coming to the party on 3/30....
Me and my gal make a great team.
-Stef
Kewl! Don't foamerettes make life worth living? Gonna try to make it ourselves ... I owe Unca Dougie some chow. :)
Can I bring my 718th Street station sign?
I see a lot of signs for 718th. Although it's followed by 7 other numbers for some reason. :(:))
Sure! We'll have Uncle Thurston mount it on the high level platform along with some movie posters ... but you'll have to grab the megaphone and make the station announcement, I dunno how to pronounce that without my little blue "sayings of the chairman" conductor's book. :)
Right you are ... go back to Mike's photo to see some of the posters behind the BMTman's ear < g >
Man ... the brain damage must be settling in hard and furious, bro. Must be da bus fumes! Heh. You forget that when Bingbong and I were in the fare control area there identifying that nice IND turnstile for ya there being an "exit" turnstile, you were flipping through all of those station posters for us, and we were going "oooh, ahhh!" for ya.
Get that man some OXYGEN! :)
It wasn't connected when I was working on Saturday. The doors are a little funny right now. They need to be lubed (hope to get to it) and also reach for a spare door operator to replace a defective one.
I will go up one more Saturday before going back to work. Hope I won't freeze my buns this time around.
-Stef
It's going to be as cold as a titche's wit the next pair of Saturdays. Oughta visit uncle Peter and get some of the monkey oil dripping from under his car. Makes them sliders move a bit smoother. Sorry about the door engine replacement though, not the most convenient location in the world. :(
I was expecting you to wanna slap Unca Steve for the bingadabongada caper there, that's unauthorized field modifications. But since you didn't tell Unca Steve what the game was, it was a little chroium switch pooking out of the BOTTOM of the door control assembly there, and the switch wasn't in the "on" position to enable that R46 circuit board. Irritated the bejeepers out of both Steve and I that it wouldn't bingadabong for us, so I just pushed the PTT button and MOOed into the PA. :)
I wasn't too disappointed that the chimes were off. I did notice that door leaf that didn't open.
Yeah, that moo you did was amusing.:)
You folks will have to give my regards to 6688 and especially 1689 come 3/30. I can't make it due to distance and budget constraints. If there is another installment next fall, I can try then.
Yeah, the financials on this end aren't looking so wonderful either. No dividend checks, so no tax cut. Going to try like hell to make it though, will know somewhere around mid-March if we can.
That "Moo" was a last resort for me, if there were geese and I was closing up to actually travel, I would have provided my patented "Thank you for riding today, Baa-aaa-aaa-aaa, honk" ...
And now you know why I was so meticulous about waking up 1689, and why I took that fussy door in stride and FIXED it. Wasn't about to let a "gathering of subtalkers" encounter an Arnine that didn't work properly. Not after all my fawning all these years. Steffie's door though is completely busticated - either the motor's dead or the linkage fell off. But either way, that door wasn't about to be coaxed back into working as was the case with 1689. There were a few other minor things that needed fixing - had I known that there was a stash of bulbs up there in the bulkhead before we moved her out, I would have changed a couple of bulbs so they were ALL lit. I was always funny that way if I had extra time in the yard before rolling them out. Fixing the minor "defects" kept the geese from squawking at me on the road. :)
Now if we could do something about that stiff bulkhead destination sign on 1689. All of the other signs cranked easily, even the side route signs. The one in my sign box is a bit stiff while the destination signs crank easily.
If Shoreline holds another Subtalk day on, say, Nov. 1 or thereabouts, I might be able to swing it then.
At least all of 1689's doors worked on both sides.
A little monkey oil will do the trick. And if not, there's an entire enclosure on the floor on the #2 end cab we can hang. I wasn't so terribly concerned about that though, since it was signed up properly as a D train. Neener-neener. :)
Yeah, but the destination sign said Kings Highway when it should have said Coney Island. Moo.
That was cause Kings Highway on the 'D' is the home station of the
Motor Instructor of the day was set by the Trolley Services Supervisor. :-) :-) :-)
~ Sparky
So THERE, Steve. :)
Yeah, but that crank was stiffer than all get-go. Even the mechanism was flopping around. I went to the opposite end of the car later on to sign it up as an A and both signs cranked easily. Neither flopped around.
I still have a hard time picturing R-1/9s signed up for the A. That's what I get for riding on all those R-10s.:)
A little monkey oil in the right place should take care of that as well. Then again, if I was curator of the car, I'm not so sure I'd want them rollsigns whizzing about in all directions. Now if ya wanna talk about STRANGE, remember that before they could be signed up as A trains upon delivery, they ran on the BMT. With BMT signage. Ick. :)
Not only that, but they ran on Fred's line.
Fred was not worthy. :)
Which bulbs were out, anyway? All the ones in the signboxes worked like a charm.
Two of them in the car proper, one up front in the no foaming section, and another one mid-car. The others took up the slack. That's why you could SEE them in the daylight ... well, cloudlight ... rainlight? :)
Sorry, folks like me who lived in those cars 7.50 hours per day noticed things like that. No biggie. Had air, had doors, storm doors open nice and wide, weeeeeeeeeee!
Some of the sockets are in need of replacement due to a few of us little guys who keep bumping into the bulbs :-(
You mean ... you mean? The HOLY RING hath shorted out, and putting new alms for old wouldn't make any difference? :)
The way those sockets are configured, there's a spring that
"detects" a missing bulb and just drops to short out the socket. If THAT'S jammed, be's a whole world of hurt. Didn't NEED to hear that, that's REAL work.
AH, if we could *ONLY* get Train Dude off his knuckle-dragging rituals with respect to others and SHARE with us some of his RCI days and reminiscing about what he got paid to do on the Arnines, and a few "war stories" ... what depresses me at times is that Dude seems never willing to tell stories of the mechanics of the Arnines, and I *KNOW* being "concourse dewd" he spent TIME with Arnines ...
So DUDE ... how we FIX that mojo? Wanna do a CI Peter, come to Branford and fix them damned storm doors? :)
The ME23 on the #2 end needs some hugs too ... NEITHER brake stand has its detents anymore ... I'd be HAPPY to go and do what needs to be done if only I knew HOW ...
We need more bodies in the 3/4 Ton Crew.
Personally, I want to finish 6688, then move on to 503, so I don't want to commit to anything else that could bog me down. But then there I went and agreed to get Board once a month < g >
There is plunty of work for any who are willing to get dirty, and we have all the toys (tools) to play with.
If Santa Cheney brings us an economy this year so someone ELSE can be stuck here doing email, I'll be happy to move in with Uncle Bill and make busy. :)
That way 1689 WOULD become your pet.:)
Not responsible if she follows me home. :)
Nancy might get mad.:)
I don't *think* so ... there's plenty of room and electrons around here to make any subway car VERY happy. And a nice LONG straightaway that'd be equivalent to a straight line express dash from South Ferry to 125th with no pesky stops, curves or timers. :)
That's about twice the length of the CPW dash. Those old timers might even hit 60 with that much track.
Sure wish we could afford to find out, eh? Double-tracked, too although about a mile and a half of the track was pulled up. The property's good to relay it all though. It'd make a hell of a tourista railroad though. And third rail WOULD be approved as long as the property got fenced in.
Yeah, having to move the air handle almost to emergency to stop 1689 was a concern.
When last I volunteered at Branford, (1997,'98) 1689 had compressor work being done. I would have been back for the rest of '98 and on, BUT I had to be an adult (Yecch!) and I got married, got promoted, got 2 kids (who, on the plus side have a little railfannin' in 'em) got MORE bills... Anyway, now that I have a LITTLE free time I'm gonna try and come back for a few. Anybody have info on 6688, 1689, and their current states of repair? BTW I was receiving instruction from George and Jay Jay when the rest of my life started getting in the way. Are they still there?
1689 looks and runs great. Riding on it on Subtalk Day was like being in a time warp. 6688 was in the process of being painted and was brought out briefly for everyone to check out. It's in very good shape overall.
Most outstanding in every way! Thanks.
There are a couple of Georges and a couple of JJs active up there, and I'm sure they have all been around before 1997 :)
I think he was refering to George B. AKA Santa & JJ of LIRR fame.
JayZeeBMT, were you in the training class of 1997/98?
;-) Sparky
I figured George B & JJ E
Mike,
There are two George B's & a P that are very active at BERA.
That's why the reference to AKA Santa.
George B & George P of the Monday/Tuesday Sub Shop crew.
;-) Sparky
Both George's are "B" < grin >
George Baehr was one of my 2000 instructors & a current Board member
George Boucher we all know & love as manager extraordinar
I was thinking B & P, forgot the other B...
Yeah, but Thurston forgot about the "Station Master" at GCT.
You missed the Professor.
;-) Sparky
You are right Sparky, I did. Glad there is only ONE Sparky !
Mike,
There are two George B's & a P that are very active at BERA.
That's why the reference to AKA Santa.
George B & George P of the Monday/Tuesday CONNCO crew.
;-) Sparky
I began to volunteer during Spring of '97 and George Boucher and Jay Jay Earl were training me as they could on Saturdays, mostly with the 3rd Avenue car. I wanted to stay with it but the rest of my life took over.
It's never too late to come back. I broke in on the cars March of 99, Member since 10/1998. I discovered Rapid Transit outside of NYC in the form of this Museum. After that, it was a match made in heaven....
R-17s Rule!
-Stef
I WILL be coming back, weather and wife permitting. BTW, R-1/9s RULE, and always have! :-)
O.K., gotcha, you weren't in the "Training Class" of 1997. 1998 I
was OOS due to an injury. You were one of the extras after the
formal class, same as I had a "Summer Class" in 2000. I was the
"Dispatcher" for most Traning Classes in the nineties and still
do so in the 2000s. Looking forward to meeting you.
;-) Sparky
I'll be there. Might even bring my 718 Street station sign, too. (LOL)
JJ was one of my instructors in 2000. Worked with him in December.
I'll bet he & the wife will be there Member's Day.
rt that are operational: 6688, 1689, 5466, 503, 3662, 1227 & of course trailer "G". Blind Trailer 197 is in the shop being turned into a stuffed & mounted display car. She's part of our effort to put more of the artifacts on display, i.e. we are a "museum".
Since you've been there we've acquired another PCC. #27 is from the Newark City Subway. She & 1001 come out on special days. The Brill PCC look-a-like is also is operational.
On the trolley side two more are about to be added to the operation fleet, one you may DESIRE to ride ;-)
The 3/4 Toners would like to do at least two rt charters in 2003 and have been talking to some at Branford to see what our options are, i.e. which car(s) and best timing. So, keep watching this Bat Channel.
Then I suppose my wearing my CSX cap in the cab is going to be RIGHT out. :)
It's now clear that Edward Luciano was a time-traveller. He brought back his TA hat from his trip to the future........
Also left a Chrysler 300 back in 1918, much to the consternation of Daimler and Benz. But they got even. Eventually. Thank heavens the DeLorean is safe. THAT'S why they had to seal the tunnel or it would have created a rift in the time continuum and Arnines would have roamed the Sea Beach Railroad. Fred would have ended up being Hillary's lackey, Heypaul would be King of the BMT, and Steve 8th Ave Exp would have actually passed the motorman's test. :)
But BMTman would STILL be smoking that stogie. Fortunately, sealing off 76th stopped that chit cold. WHEW! All we've got left is these cheesy postcards. Heypaul saved the planet by taking that time-travelling Arnine cab and ensconced it safely in his living room. But Fred still is Hillary's lackey. Moo. (grin)
I would have been perfectly happy playing conductor.:)
Sorry dewd, that DeLorean is OPTO. :)
Damn! Photographic evidence! LOL! :)
Paul, you could have at least waited until April 1.:)
I see they haven't gotten the flourescent lighting installed yet...
How dare you pass that off as a picture of 76th Street!
It's a well-known view of Atlantis.
No, it's pictures of Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera topless that supposedly exist all over cyberspace.
No, it's pictures of Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera topless that supposedly exist all over cyberspace.
Oh, I just assumed all the women in Atlantis went topless.
No, they wear seashell bras.
They go bottomless however.
Atlantis? Is that another IND station?
Its the next stop on the Sea Beach after Stillwell Avenue - Coney Island
Silly place for an IND station, if you ask me.
Nope, just another HOAX! Would be a perfect place for a IND station though ;-). Whew too much railfanning for me today, I need some rest!
Atlantis? Is that another IND station?
Of course not. Atlantis' system is IRT-spec, and is presently receiving second-hand Redbirds to replace the deteriorating H&M K-cars.
Of course it is. It's the station at IND chaining zero.
I know what happened. Paul got his informants mixed up. THIS was the photo he was going to post NEXT week, showing the production line at Bombardier U.S.
Thanks, Paul. I think I can just make out the bumping block in that shot...LOL!
I had to dust off my sophisticated image editing computer called Paintbox and if you look closely (you may need to adjust the brightness setting of your monitor) you can see that it is in fact 76th Street station.
Enhanced picture of 76th Street Station
Arti
I can't see the picture. What is it?
>>> I can't see the picture. What is it? <<<
You have to click on the link .... and read some of the other posts. :-)
Tom
You can see the digitally enchanced version of the picture, if you follow the link I posted.
Arti
I'm probably the only one here who actually gets bored on the subway and reads a book or something while riding, but anyway:
Once, no reading material in hand, I decided to count every subway station and see which system the MTA used to derive the number 468.
By counting every single station and counting complexes as multiple separate stations, I arrived at the number 468. At the current time though, there would be 464, at that time, there were 462.
For some reason I forgot about this until now. I wasn't sitting near the map, so I wasn't able to use it for help, I had to do every station from memory and count in my head. I'm sure I'm not the only one who can do that though!
Anybody else have a story of really weird subway related things that you did when you were bored?
I play with my Sony Clie a lot when I'm riding. I have a habit of looking at the subway maps in the car I'm riding and look for any abnormalities. Yeah I know......FREAK!!!!!!!! LOL
Hasn't anyone said look at your fellow passengers who are women???
Or haven't the women who post here, said I look at the men?????
That must have been a slow day, had there been some pleasing eye candy on the train, I doubt I would have had the concentration not to lose count in this endeavor.
I'm never bored on the subway. It's a feast of people watching. Sometimes, if I'm engrossed in my reading I'll do that, but I always
know I'm missing something!
Walker Evans took his camera into the IRT during the 30's or 40's and secretly snapped photos of people sitting across from him, documenting people watching. He published a book of them, but I have never looked up the title. Believe it was in the 40's so it is long out of print. Some of these photos show up in collections of his work. Several are of the passengers sitting in front of the metal destination signs. Those that I like especially are on the downtown Lexington Ave. local taken before 12/31/45 - where the bottom sign says "City Hall."
People-watching is a wonderful thing - esp. on the subway!
Well, I like to gander at other people. I sometimes catch people who are picking their nose or scratching their butt: a realy laugh riot! :D
I plan to buy a GBA SP once it comes out here in the US. I'll be too busy playing that when I read the subways.
I don't really get bored but If I do I like to look at people sometimes b/c they stare at me like I'm going to hit them or something and I do it just for the hell of it. The alternate plan for when I'm bored is to go to the railfan window; IF unoccupied [on all cars that have visible & clear railfan windows i.e. R32], never bored there :-).
I decided, in a fit of daring and out of the need to just get out of town, to head down to "First District Plaza" in Philadelphia via NJT and SEPTA today.
I was barely able to make the 10:05 local out of NYP to Trenton; I had to run from the Deuce to the ticket machine, almost overcharged myself, and then wheel, double back, and wheel again to get to the train (it was on track 13, in the LIRR section, while I thought it was on track 3). By the time I got onboard, I was winded and it showed.
I got on what looked, from the inside, like a Arrow (either Mark II or III). I didn't get the change to look at what my car looked like from the outside; I just figured that there were a set of electrics towing a whole bunch of Comets (that is what it looked like when I ran down to the platforms.) The ride down the NE Corridor definitely felt more like a early Arrow (it was a 55xx series, which would be a factor in my surprise later on), even though it was very speedy.
I got a first look at EWR station. The station looks desolate, in the middle of a desolate area, even for an early January day. Yet its pretty wide and functional under the assumption that many passengers will be switching to and from the AirTrain. While sitting there a southbound deadheading NJT train, consisting of an ALP-44 with several Comets in tow, burst by on the innermost southbound track. I asked myself how long it would take before that train would reach Trenton.
All down the line, I kept seeing all kinds of trains flying northbound, particularly the Acelas (both regionals and Expresses). I bristled with envy that I was simply on a commuter train that could only do 100 mph tops, even though (under my mistaken impression) the train consisted on Arrow electrics towing Comets. Then, upon reaching Trenton and walking down the platform to make the transfer to the SEPTA R7 that was waiting, I found, amazingly, that not only did my train consist of all Comets (of the Mark III variety), but that it was being towed by the new ALP-46. Well, I must say, in retrospect, that although the ride was rough (any Jerseyite want to tell me how much punishment those things have taken and if NJT has the maintenence techniques to compensate for that), the ALP-46 more than made up for it.
Anyway, on the SEPTA train, it looked like a GE Silverliner Mark IV, and on the inside, like it had just been rehabbed. How could I tell? Well, on the inbound trip to 30th Street (as well as going back) the ride was definitely indicative of a railcar that was pushing thirty. Nothing much to say about the inbound trip, except that my train was overtaken, outside of the city line, by a southbound Acela Express at speed, and we had to have been doing at least 70 (this would repeat itself going outbound, except this time instead of an Acela Express it was a long distance train being towed by an E60 - anyone want to explain to me if Amtrak raised the speed limit of those things in the last few months?) Then there was Zoo junction; I can tell that one of the reasons it's so notable is that when a train enters that interlocking, there's no telling where its going to end up!
Lots of people at 30th Street station looking to board for the outbound run to Chestnut Hill E. Many with bags that were more suitable for long hauls (is college season back? I can't tell, being that since I am a CCNY student my time clock is skewed worse than any other college student in the entire Northeast!) I then went looking for the Market-Frankfort subway, which was only a short walk south. I had to purchase tokens for the ride; no bus, for some reason, goes directly down Market street from 30th to First District Plaza (anyone from Philly want to explain to me how SEPTA works the buses down there; I've been spoiled by MTA New York City Bus). At least I got a ride on the M-4s. Didn't like it, though; while the traction motors DO sound like those of the R-142As (and move like them as well), their interiors are not as large by any means, and whoever designed the interiors did not account for standing room. But they are fast.
While around the plaza, I got to see some of the New Flyer D40LFs. I like the signs, but I found the engines to sound more like the Orion 5 (1997-2000 models) than any New Flyer I know.
On the way back (I couldn't stay that long), while changing at Trenton, I got to see another Acela Express, this time bursting by while I'm sitting down on a train that's standing still. Boy did I turn green; I was in a bit of a hurry to get back to my school before it closed, and I figured that if I was on that train, I would be at NYP in thirty minutes. Instead of the hour and a half that it actually took. Oh, and BTW, these were Arrows, inside and out.
(One more thing: I corrected a mistake I made from the last time I came to Philadelphia. I didn't leave without consuming a cheesesteak :-)
Market Street, if I recall correctly, is not two-ways all the way across. It goes one-way and JFK Blvd the other way...
Market Street is two-way up from the city line at 63rd Street up to 20th Street, then it runs one-way east up to City Hall(15th Street) and becomes two-way again on the other side.
JFK Blvd Runs west where Market Street runs east.
Here`s the story of why there's no direct bus service on Market st between 30th st, and the First District Plaza. Until the 50`s RT 31 trolley ran on Market St straight through from Front to 63rd st. When the line was bustituted, it was combined with the old 38 trolley, and rerouted between 34th and 46th sts. The doofuses at PTC figured that the Market St Subway, and the Chestnut/Walnut St buses provided enough coverage in that gap area. That stupidity lasted until SEPTA started the "L.U.C.Y." bus in 2000.
On the other hand, if you came down today or on any other weekday, you could have used the "LUCY" bus. It runs those green and gold Eldorados on Market St, and the Green Loop runs past the First District Plaza. However the bus stop is all the way across 30th st at JFK Blvd, and you would have to follow the signs to find the stop. The buses used to stop in front of the station, but AMTRAK told SEPTA to get the buses out of there for some strange reason. (This happened way before 9/11/01 so I do not know the reason)
Are college passes required to get on those "LUCY" buses (and BTW, I saw quite a few of them - first time seeing the ElDs)? Do the drivers honor passes from, say, schools in NY like CUNY?
Hey Hey! What time were you around 30th st? A little after 1pm I was walking down JFK from 32nd st, picked up some Auntie Annes in 30th st station, then headed off to grab a bus. Finally got a 9 Neoplan artic to 16th and Market. If I'm not in a hurry, I'll ride a bus rather than an M-4, that sound can get pretty annoying.
Yeah, I know Drexel is back, first week from winter break. I've also noticed that seemingly a lot of the commuter students ride the R8 and R7 to Chestnut Hill, several people I've talked to said they even had the option of either train, that both were walking distance to their houses.
I suppose you could have ridden the 10 trolley to 36th and Market, it would be another two blocks out to First District Plaza. Also the 21 runs west along walnut, east along chestnut, but that means two blocks south from 30th st station to walnut, then two blocks north to first district, then back one block south, and one block north again at 30th st station again.
Would be nice to see SEPTA run more bus service along Market, perhaps bring one of the schyukil expressway busses south earlier, serving market from say 40th st east, maybe the 124/125 or the 44. Right now the 31 doesn't really cut it.
You missed my by at least a 1/2 hr. I came on the 12:27 R7 trip to Chestnut Hill East.
Please take the 44 off of 76! I haven't taken it for years but all the savings made on the highway on some days are lost on others.
And force those people to schlep through the slums of West Philly, like they do on the 38. Are you frickin' nuts? I rather sit in a traffic jam on the "Surekill Distressway" than see some of West Philly's slums any day!
I was hoping to get to my destination sooner although I see your point. I can't say that neighborhood is all that nice.
Anyway, on the SEPTA train, it looked like a GE Silverliner Mark IV, and on the inside, like it had just been rehabbed. How could I tell? Well, on the inbound trip to 30th Street (as well as going back) the ride was definitely indicative of a railcar that was pushing thirty.
The Silverliner IV's run faster than the nearly Equivalent Arrow III's on NJT. The Arrow III's (the only ones in serivce) usually get up to around 88 on the long straight stretches on the NEC. The Silverliner IV's get up to 92 or more on the section between MORRIS and Tarrytown. Working as a 2 or 3 unit train, the Silverliner IV's have remarkable acceleration, getting up to 60+ on stops less than a mile appart.
BTW, no electric MU car in service today is designed to haul regular coaching stock as a trailer.
BTW, why didn't you try riding the R7 into Suburban or Market East in order to reach your destination?
"BTW, why didn't you try riding the R7 into Suburban or Market East in order to reach your destination?"
It would not have made sense. First District Plaza is near UPenn, about a mile south/west of 30th Street Station. Going to Penn Center/Suburban or Market East would've entailed a longer walk or ride on the Frankfort line, neither of which I had time for (though it would have been fun and somewhat easier for me to find some cheaper food to eat).
Regarding the rolling stock, you ain't lying about the speed, of which the Silverliners generated quite a bit of not only between the two mentioned points but others on the outbond run.
And regarding the lines themselves: SEPTA has got to do something about those poor excuses for bus stops (sorry, I meant train stations, no offense to any Pennsy riders) that dot the R7 line. I mean, they can do a lot better than that.
The R7 line has bus stops because most of the towns it serves are seedy working class communities in NorthEast Philadelphia. The primary employing industries there are local and there is not that much of a demand for center city commuting. Many of those stations were only added as stops since the 1960's, which is odd considering that many rail lines (like the Corridor in NJ) have cut many of their stops since then.
Once you get out past Cornwall's Heights you enter the real suburban commuting zone.
From today's Newsday - today is the 140th anniversary of London's "Metropolitan" - the first subway.
Although when LT was formed, the Metropolitan tried (unsuccessfully) to argue that it was a commuter railroad not a subway. It still acts as a kinda weird cross between the two, especially once you get way out towards Amersham. They even publish a timetable! It shares track with what was the Great Central Railway and is now the Chiltern Aylesbury Line.
Of course it's not only the Met which feels somehow not a subway - the District Line nearly joins the West London Extension Railway at Olympia, shares track with the North London Line on the Richmond Branch, shares track with the Southern Region on the Wimbledon branch and shares a ROW with the London Tilbury & Southend Railway out in the East. One weird feature is that the London & South Western Railway (later the Southern Railway and the Southern Region) held running powers over the District into High St Kensington. I don't think these were ever used.
The East London Line is even more blatantly designed not to be a subway but to give the Southern Region's lines a path into Liverpool St as an alternative to London Bridge. In fact the East London Joint Railway was owned by five companies (Great Eastern Railway, London Brighton & South Coast Railway, Metropolitan Railway, Metropolitan District Railway, and South Eastern & Chatham Railway - itself a joint company).
The Northern City line was originally designed to carry the Great Northern's trains into Moorgate in the City. This didn't happen and it became part of the Met, then a Shuttle from the Northern Line. Finally in the mid-1970s it was given back to BR and now trains run through from the former Great Northern (Hertford I think) to the City.
Of the other lines (the tube lines), the Waterloo & City Line was until privatisation part of the BR Southern Region and not part of the Underground. The Piccadilly Line's Western end is of course pure District and as such feels more like a subway train on a commuter railroad.
So what would a purist say was the first real Subway line in London? The City & South London Railway opened from King William St (now abandoned) to Stockwell on the 4th November 1890. Most of this is now part of the strangely named Northern Line, which includes LU's Southernmost point at Morden, but not the Northernmost point (Amersham, on the Met).
So it's nice to know the Underground's 140, even though it's the least Undergroundish Line that wins it!
How do (ex-)Southern Region lines, 3rd rail, share track with LU, 4-rails? This looks quite complicated from an electrical point of view!
John
I really have no idea! In fact Waterloo - Putney - Wimbledon has been demapped, so they may not bother. It's on this rather antique post-electrification Southern Region carriage map, so it must have been done somehow:
http://carol.nuvox.net/dolphin//david/origmap.gif
I rather suspect the use of DMUs to provide this service.
One of the main reasons I appreciate the NYC subway system is that I
hate driving into Manhattan. The chance of uncontrolled delays while driving must be a hundred times greater than on a train. I like to arrive on time, and driving makes me really nervous that won't happen. And, of course, street parking in many neighborhoods is either outrageously expensive or non-existant. So I don't do it unless I have to haul in some big or bulky things, or if it's the weekend, when traffic is less and appointments less likely.
Why I like the trains? They work!! Thanks, train guys and gals!
I like driving in Manhattan. I learned to drive in Manhattan, so I was always accustomed to the traffic jams and the like, and the neccessary merging and weaving one has to do to stay on top of things.
I can't stand Manhattan driving either. Why people choose to do it, I can't imagine, except maybe that they don't want to rub shoulders with us (ick!) Common People on the subway.
The only thing worse then driving in Manhattan, (and by the way isn't that bad) is driving from eastern PA to LI!
There is nothing worse then doing the PA tpke, then the NJ tpke, to
get stuck on the Staten Island Expressway, and to crawl thru Brooklyn and Queens on the Belt, to sit in traffic on the Southern St, to
get to Sunrise Hwy, and, finally get to Holbrook LI in 4 1/2 5 hours.
I prefer to drive early, no traffic, say at 7 am on a Saturday morning from Montgomery County, (Collegeville) to Holbrook LI is
do-able in 3 hours easy.
To go home on a Sunday, I leave the island around 10 am, after that it
it becomes impossible. Manhattan or no manhattan, driving in NY sucks!
Give me the train any time.
I have all my best adventures driving in Manhattan. It's a skill, like knowing how to water ski. I always have a hard hat in my car for work, and my passengers generally elect to wear it. Needless to say, I take the train into Manhattan if at all possible.
actually driving in Manhattan isnt that bad, because if u know anything about NY drivers, they are horrible in ALL BOROUGHS. I drive to Rosedale mostly to park my Car at the Long island Railroad station. Someone blew the stop sign and almost hit me! its like Stop sign? what stop sign?
besides, when i first started as a Cleaner working for Metro North, i drove to Grand Central almost everynight. but having a BIG sedan, u can imagine how my gas bill was like.....
And no matter how far out in the suburbs you get (I work in deepest darkest CT) the game is the same: three-quarters right turn, screech the brakes, bumper to the pedestrian's shin, lay on the horn. If the French government could get PARISIANS to stop honking, why not us?
Especially seeing as drivers know precisely what gesture that merits, especially in NYC (turn through 90 degrees counterclockwise):
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I actually like driving in Manhattan. I spent pretty much the whole 70's driving a yellow medallion cab in the city, part time, first to pay off my college tuition (Pace U by City Hall) and then moonlighting while I had other jobs. Then, when I joined the NYPD I spent my first year as a rookie in Midtown radio cars before I got banished to the ghettos of Brooklyn North. I have to admit it was a lot easier in a patrol car than in a cab as 99% of the other drivers always gave me the right of way!!! Manhattan driving was a skill, sort of like a game, and it was fun. As a cabbie half the fun was devising strategies to get fares, and to beat the other two cabs on each side of you to the guy on the next block with his hand up!
How did you go from the desirable midtown sector car duty (how did you get that in the first place? As a rookie, shouldn't you have started someplace like Bed-Sty?) to Brooklyn North? Was this when you were promoted to sergeant, and there was a supervisor slot available there?
No, after graduating rookiedom (is there such a word?) in midtown I was sent to the 73 in Brownsville for 10 years. Then I worked the 111 in Queens (Bayside, Little Neck, Douglaston) for about six yrs till I made sgt and went back to Bklyn. (The 81 in Bed/Stuy) I actually liked my Brooklyn days the best. The one good thing out of the 111 in Bayside was when a female cop co-worker asked me if I'd like to meet her sister and two years later this co-worker became my sister-in-law!!! And then came Arthur!!!
Now that I'm retired from the NYPD I'm looking for a train related career.
"The one good thing out of the 111 in Bayside was when a female cop co-worker asked me if I'd like to meet her sister and two years later this co-worker became my sister-in-law!!! "
Aha. The 111 always did have among the most charming (and comely) officers on the force...
BTW, the operations chief that I got to know was promoted is currently CO of Trials Division. I imagine he'll make DI before long...
Lucky boy: tooling about in 111 is noting compared to twenty plus years of metro service calls. The Lord did truly Grace me with a job in transit....my big stops were all in the shadow of the Twin Towers. I quit just days before 911 to start as a Car Inspector on September 17th. My ex employer can rot with his financial losses...never shared a dime for my extra work. The worst work of my job: keeping #5 nasty/dirty/SMS rebuild cars going BUT these cars keep our city alive and I'm proud to hear the page: "Car Inspector Murricane report to the supervisor shape up room." CI Peter
My son and I played tourists yesterday. Drove to the Upper West Side, found on street parking on 91st & Broadway (no, didn't fall into the abandoned station, shucks), bought two Funpasses, used subway and bus from that point on.
The nice thing about driving in is that we didn't have to worry about a schedule going home. I wouldn't try this on a weekday though unless I was very patient. You'd probably have to find a street where alternate side of the street parking is about 1/2 hour from ending and sit in your car for a while.
--Mark
You'd probably have to find a street where alternate side of the street parking is about 1/2 hour from ending and sit in your car for a while.
I used to do this all the time.
This was also about equal to the time I saved by not taking mass transit, but I made up for it with the trip home. This was never at the very peak of the rush hour though.
Night classes at NYU didn't start at 6:10pm for no reason :)
(Street parking started at 6pm.)
--Mark
Count me as one of those weird people who actually enjoy driving in Manhattan. But then, the only times I drive in Manhattan are on Sundays when I occasionally go to mass at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine and rail isn't a convenient option. (The other six days of the week, I prefer to take the train.)
My usual route is to take the NJ Turnpike up to the George Washington Bridge and cross over, and then drive down Amsterdam to the Cathedral. On a Sunday morning, I've always been able to find free street parking within a few blocks. On the way home later that day, I'll usually drive down Broadway to the Holland Tunnel, or if I'm feeling especially adventurous, I'll drive down to lower Manhattan, across the Brooklyn Bridge, down the Gowanus Expressway, across the Verazano Narrows Bridge (what an incredible structure!), and then across Staten Island back to NJ.
Driving in Manhattan is almost like a real-life video game, trying to see how many blocks I can cover before all the signals turn red again, all while dodging taxi cabs, busses, and pedestrians. What a rush! Driving in the other boroughs is no different than driving in a typical Chicago neighborhood, so I'm used to it.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
I would stay away from the Gowanus and SI if I were you. You could walk across the entire West Shore ROW before you even see 440. That SI Expressway is a nightmare during the day and a daymare during the night.
***"I've always been able to find free street parking within a few blocks."***
Aye, I see you've been oriented with NYC Parking Meters.
Very quietly Mikey Bloomers, has instituted a new phrase on the
regulatory signs. >>>"Including Sundays"<<< And this is in quiet
residential Greenpoint, Brooklyn. How about your hood? Not yet,
give 'em time, it'll be there.
***"Driving in Manhattan is almost like a real-life video game, trying to see how many blocks I can cover before all the signals turn red again, all while dodging taxi cabs, busses, and pedestrians."***
Dave, you need more practice in driving North & South on the one~ways,
if you can maintain 28 MPH, you'll never stop for the red. It will
be stopless North to South or VisaVerse. Forget about Xtown. If
you make it thru 3 Avenue, your lucky.
;-) Sparky
The Upper West Side has had Sunday meter regulations for a while. Meters are good. Giving away a scarce resource like parking for free is a good way to ensure that you won't find a parking space when you most need one.
I hope to visit London this summer. Anyone have any reasonable accomodations they reccommend there? Want to take my son to see
Churchill's war room, and other WWII sites, see some theatre and visit
Stratford-on-Avon. I'm assuming we can travel anywhere by train or
on the Underground there.
London accomodation tends to be quite expensive. There are some reasonably cheap hotels in the Shepherd's Bush area of West London. Really, the best idea is to go for hotels in an odd part of London like that, not too touristified, then you won't get ripped off.
Underground travel is easy and cheap within London. There are One Day Travelcards available (they're cheaper after 0930) for most combinations of zones (you'll probably want 1 and 2). Depending on how long you're staying, you may want to buy a Travelcard with a longer duration. Travelcards are valid on buses and National Rail trains within the zones you've bought.
The following map shows which tube and main line stations are in each zone:
http://www.thetube.com/content/tubemap/images/london_connnections.gif
Prices etc are available in the tickets section of www.thetube.com
Buses can be confusing in London, but there are maps on the buses section of www.londontransport.co.uk
To get to Stratford-upon-Avon:
- NB importantly: Stratford (the Eastern terminal of the Jubilee Line) is NOT Stratford-upon-Avon
- Option one: go to Paddington and find a train for Stratford-upon-Avon - these are slow and go via Didcot, not a very direct route.
- Option two: it may be faster to go to Marylebone and find a train for Kidderminster, Stourbridge Junction, or Birmingham Snow Hill. There are connecting trains at Leamington Spa (some of the connecting trains start at Leamington, not Paddington). Most of these connections can also be made at Warwick, so you might like to have a look around there too - it's got a huge castle and it's quite an historic town.
For going to Stratford, you will have to buy a ticket. A Cheap Day Return out of Marylebone costs Ł23.00 and out of Paddington costs Ł26.20. These tickets are unusually mutually exclusive - if you pay the cheaper fare you have to go via High Wycombe, if you pay the more expensive fare you have to go via Didcot. If your son is aged 15 or under, he qualifies for a half-fare.
I suggest you download the full Chiltern Railways timetable booklet from the times section of www.chilternrailways.co.uk as this details the times of connections at Leamington.
Hope this is some use and have a great time in England!
I am also planning to visit London, check out Orbis, or any of the other sites on the web like hotels.com. Also United Vacations and American Airline Vacations have some inexpensive hotel packages. Also check with the Airline that you are flying, or your TRAVEL AGENT where you are buying your ticket.
Theser rates are usually lower then the hotel rack rates. I should know, I am a Travel Agent
If you’re interested in WWII, consider the Imperial War Museum, of which the Cabinet War Rooms is part.
I don’t know whether they still have them, but there used to be a lot of bed and breakfast places in Bayswater, between the Bayswater Road and Westbourne Grove. Time Out may be able to help you with actual names and prices. Their London Guide is recommended.
Also for you, don’t forget the National Railway Museum in York. You can get there from London (on a “real” GNER train!) in a couple of hours. The museum is within walking distance of York station.
Enjoy your trip!
Wow! Thanks this is great! How long would it take to travel from
central London to Bayswater, do you know?
Not very long at all. You'll probably be somewhere near Queensway on the Central Line - 4 stops from Oxford Circus (right in the middle of all the good shops), which is 2 stops on the Bakerloo Line from Charing Cross - where distances in the UK are measured from. You'd be right in the middle of it all.
Bayswater (in west london) is on the Circle (yellow) and Edgware Road-Wimbledon (green) part of the District Line.Most tube stations are about two minutes between each other in the central area ! (yes- I know there are many exceptions the rest of you!).
.
This subtalk board has been of great help to us 'Brits' who have come stateside so now let 'us' return the favour.
Any thing you want to know regarding your trip ,post it here and i'm sure the British division of subtalkers will help you out.
.
Rob
Bayswater (in west london) is on the Circle (yellow) and Edgware Road-Wimbledon (green) part of the District Line.
Bayswater (District/Circle) is also one block along Queensway from Queensway on the Central Line. Royal Oak, Notting Hill Gate, Lancaster Gate and Paddington stations just about surround the area.
Some of the stations are so close that there is no point in using the nearest one - for instance to go from Bayswater to Holborn, it is not sensible to ride the District/Circle one stop to Notting Hill Gate, it's a much better idea walking to Queensway. Similar pairings are Paddington and Lancaster Gate, the two Edgware Roads, the two Shepherd's Bushes, the two Hammersmiths, Covent Garden and Leicester Square, Charing Cross and Embankment, etc etc.
Lancaster Gate to Paddington is a hike. Paddington is really two separate stations–the District/Circle/Bakerloo lines are within one fare control, the Hammersmith & City (ex-Metropolitan) line is halfway down the mainline Paddington station.
John
I should have made myself clearer Lancaster Gate to Paddington (Praed Street). The H&C is a real hike and the Bakerloo is quite a way.
Thanks Rob and James!
I need to get a good tourist map to determine where we'll want to visit and try to find a good location to stay based on that. I loved the look
of some of the rooms that people rent out in their homes. Was looking
on-line. I think the trains will be experienced for transportation purposes, and not as a stand-alone attraction. My son doesn't share my interest. What section of town do the teenagers like to visit there? He'll be 14 when we make our trip. I wish I could introduce him to someone his age over there. Maybe a very young transit buff
could be located? Kids do so prefer to be with their own kind at this
age!
The problem with London is that there is so much history per square inch that you will have to be selective.
For shopping, you can take a trip along Oxford Street. Start at Marble Arch and go to Oxford Circus. You can talk down Regent street to Piccadilly Circus, with a detour to Carnaby Street (though I don’t know that a 14-year old will know about Carnaby street unless he’s an Austin Powers fan).
There are museums aplenty, historic churches and cathedrals (good views from the top of St Paul’s). Don’t forget the Tower of London (though the Jewel house gets crowded during summer months). If you give us an idea of what interests your son, we can help with attractions.
John
My son is into World War II history. He is also into - but very selectively - rock music. (Fortunately, not punk rock) He does enjoy
the theatre - though he is loathe to admit it at this age. And I introduced him to Shakespeare when he was young. The book was delightful and showed a rendition of a stage and the goings on in Shakespeare's time. The War Room is a must, and I want to make sure
he reads up on things and let him choose some locations for us to go.
He's not really into shopping, but in a "teenage" type shopping area, he'd probably find a couple of intriguing things. And he does adore
Austin Powers, but I think the Carnaby Street part may not have registered so much for him as for we old 'ens.
I saw My Fair Lady when I was in London over the summer and loved it. Perhaps he would like that. Warning: If you go during the summer, the theater does NOT have A/C and is very hot. I saw the play on the 20th of August so it was about as hot as it would get. They do give out complimentary fans though. The rest of the family saw Les Mis the next day after we went to the Transport Museum at Covent Garden. I left them to go on my railfan trip (described in another post) and they decided to go see it. They liked it as well. Other attractions I liked were the Globe Theatre (make sure there isn't a matinee on the day you go, otherwise there are no tours), the London Eye, and Westminster Abbey. I am sure there were more, e-mail me if you have any more questions.
Have fun when you are there!
Consider staying overnight at Stratford-upon-Avon. It is well worth it. I did that with my wife some years back, took in a couple of Shakespeare plays ("Much Ado About Nothing" was one of them) and visited Annie Hathaway's house (and I put the bug of "Annie Oakley" in my wife's head and of course she asked where Annie Oakley's house was :) ROTFLMAO!
We flew to London for a week, then took a train to Scotland, stayed there 2 nights, then went to Stratford-Upon-Avon for one night, then went back to London, all by train. And to make us feel like our dollar meant something, we flew to Amsterdam for a few days, too.
--Mark
Mark,
Your trip sounds wonderful! Do you remember the name of the place you
stayed in Stratford-on-Avon? How far is it from London?
Stratford-upon-Avon is a little under 100 miles from London.
Let me see if I can dig up a credit card receipt of where we stayed. It's a long shot though ....
--Mark
British James provided some good info.
At Heathrow Airport you have a choice of commuter rail or Underground into the city.
Commuter rail at Heathrow... the words waste of money spring to mind. Depending on where in London I was going, I'd:
- ride the Piccadilly Line
- ride the 140 bus to Hayes & Harlington station for a train into Paddington
- ride the 285 (local) or 726 (limited stop) bus to Feltham station for a train into Waterloo
- stay on the 726 bus to Kingston, Worcester Park, Sutton or Croydon (most use if headed for places in South London Surrey, plus it gives you a nice look at Hampton Court Palace on the way!)
- the 140, 285 and 726 all use the Heathrow Central Bus Station.
Yes, but for you the journey is an end, not a means to an end!
Seriously, the Heathrow Express is a fast train and gets you to Paddington in 15 minutes. It’s expensive though at Ł25 round trip however.
Ł25 is ridiculous for a train within Greater London. For Ł25 you can get to Birmingham Snow Hill.
For me, saving money is a good idea, which is why the 285 is good - it only costs 70p to Feltham, then Ł4.20 to Waterloo or even to Charing Cross if I want to walk over the bridge to Waterloo East. I then have Ł20.10 more shopping money. Sure, Feltham to Waterloo takes half an hour, but I'd say it was a better deal (and there are 5tph, so it's not bad!).
Likewise if I'm going back to Birmingham, the 140 is 70p to the Central line at Northolt, then Ł1.30 to West Ruislip where my (Ł25)main line ticket becomes valid and I'm away (usually with a change at High Wycombe).
The Heathrow Express isn't "commuter rail". It's a purpose-built airport rail line - it belongs to BAA, the owners of Heathrow Airport. No cheap tickets can be used on it and, as James has said, it is very expensive. Subtalkers would find the Piccadilly Line more fun, it's vastly cheaper, and it goes direct to several hotel-intensive areas.
"Don't know much about the hotels since I didn't make the arrangements when I was there but I did visit the Cabinet War Rooms and they were very interesting. Also, make sure you visit the transport museum. Finally, an interesting railfan itinerary that I did while I was there was this:
Started at Covent Garden
Piccadilly to King's X
H&C to Farringdon
Met to Harrow on the Hill
Met to Rayners Lane (where you can see Tube Stock and Subsurface stock next to each other)
Piccadilly to Hammersmith
H&C to Edgeware Road
District to East Putney but stop off at Notting Hill Gate (I should have gone all the way to Wimbledon but by that time it was rather late and common sense was fading)
District back to Sloane Square
End of trip
You can see pictures from this and other subway trips I made in London at my website, www.orenstransitpage.com.
Total time: about 4 hours
Total time">
Here's an almost circular tour starting at Heathrow and finsihing in central London that gives a taste of everything - if you aren't too jet-lagged on arrival. A one-day Travelcard (5 pounds odd after 9.30 a.m. or any time on Saturdays, Sundays or public holidays) covers all of this.
Piccadilly Line, Heathrow to Earls Court - deep tube, though mostly in the open air on this stretch.
District Line (Wimbledon branch), Earls Court to Wimbledon - subsurface, actually elevated in parts.
Croydon Tramlink, Wimbledon to Elmers End - some of it private ROW including some single-track sections, some on-street running.
Connex (runs every 15 minutes middays), Elmers End to Lewisham - a taste of suburban rail.
Docklands Light Railway, Lewisham to Bank - including the elevated part across all the docks.
Then the underground from Bank to wherever you're staying - though the Bank/Monument complex is very confusing (think Fulton/Broadway-Nassau) so you might get lost in there!
I did this loop after seeing someone off on a flight at Heathrow once - it's one of the most varied bits of railfanning you can imagine, very enjoyable.
>>> I did this loop after seeing someone off on a flight at Heathrow once <<<
Much easier than doing it after arriving – with luggage! :-)
Tom
For a real British experience you could stay in a pub! The Good Pub Guide lists one with bedrooms in Portobello Road (the famous street-market street near Notting Hill Gate and Ladbroke Grove tube stations), called the Portobello Gold. Accommodation at pubs listed in the Good Pub Guide is excellent in my experience.
Which one is that? The Sun in Spendour (at the top)?
I used to live in Simon Close, which is a tiny mews just off the first section of the Portobello Road. Great part of London to live in!
John
Wow, that sounds interesting! I've never heard of it before, though
I did stay in a B&B with a pub downstairs in Ireland, which was wonderful.
Was the place you stayed reasonable? Did it have a bathroom?
Was it loud, or were you insulated?
It was on this date in 1863 that the world's first underground railway opened in London. I wonder if Queen Victoria personally opened it.
Doubt it - nobody much wanted her opening things after she opened the Clifton Suspension Bridge.
"Her Majesty then pissed over the bridge"
- The Times
I read that Queen Victoria didn't appear much in public after Prince Albert died in December of 1861. She was pretty devastated and never fully recovered from that.
Are the stations themselves on that original portion still in their original treatment, or have they been spruced up? IIRC much of the original tunnelwork is still present.
Why didn't the IND include the old name of 76th Street in with the new? It is likely that the station would have been double-named if it really existed.
On the Brooklyn side of the street is Emerald Street, On The Queens Side It's 76th Street. The City Line runs down the middle the street At Euclid Avenue
Yeah, Brooklyn was able to keep it's great old and historical names, while Queens unfortunately lost all it's names to the non-descript numbers.
When I was out from my parent's house, I lived in many places in the city, excepting Brooklyn and Queens. Brooklyn was OK to visit and railfan regularly, but my first few jobs as a kid from da Bronx were in Brooklyn, at C&M Color TV in Flatbush and of course, the TA. Also did some jobs in Queens (NO job for you, Bronx boy in da Bronx aside from retail) from SONY to Panasonic in the Court Sq area to Excretone (I *know* how it's properly spelled, that company chewed dogs) at Sunnyside and a few others of lesser repute ...
Queens was a place that made me nuts ... all numbers, WEIRD numbers at that ... like 21-21 21 Ave at the corner of 21 ST and 21 RD ... Aggggh. Wish they'd KEPT Bliss, and Rawson, etc ... at least there'd be something cognizant ... so yeah, going "digital" was all about Queens it would seem. Any address (including Woodside) would be guaranteed to run you out of gas in a car, and out of your MIND walking to wherever you needed to get to. :)
HeHe, yeah, that's what I mean. In Manhattan the numbering system works, because the streets are basically straight, and there is only one 23rd, 24th, etc. In Queens you need a map anyway, so it doesn't really matter if you are looking on the map for let's say 63rd Drive, 63rd Street, 63rd Ave, 63rd Place, or one of the many other combos they have come up with, or if you are looking for "Maple Ave", etc. And many times a street number won't even be near it's numbered "neighbor". 63rd Place could be far from 64th Drive (just random numbers - I am not looking at a map).
Luckily, even though I lived in Queens, I lived in Ridgewood for a while, and my street was spared the "numbering". I guess because Ridgewood was under the Brooklyn post office, many of the names in my section of Ridgewood were saved when they changed all the others. My address number even followed the Brooklyn address numbers, even though it was in Queens. Two blocks away (crossing Forest Ave) the addresses changed from 1900's to 6000's (but the name of the street and many the streets around it remains).
It wasn't consistent though. For Example, Madison and Putnam Aves (among others) run from Brooklyn, into Ridgewood, crosses Forest Ave (where the numbers go from 1900's to 6000's), and ends at Fresh Pond Road as Putnam Ave, Madison, etc. Cornelia Street, which is right next to Putnam, runs from Brooklyn, into Ridgewood, but at Forest, not only do the addresses change from 1900's to 6000's, the name turns to 67th, and ends at Fresh Pond Road as 67th. Strange.
As a BRONX boy, to MY mind, Queens was eligible for "Earthquake Monopoly" ... (put out Monopoly game, plant houses, hotels, deeds, etc and then SLAM your fist onto the gameboard, spraying everything in all directions) ... such is Queens. Never COULD fathom that borough. As they said in a 1948 joke ... "then there was the gay Manhattanite who moved to Rego Park so they could be listed in the Queens directory." Such was the "culture" of the time.
All I can tell ya is I ran out of gas MANY times in that frigging borough before I learned to stay the HELL outta there. Never DID get to the party. Then again, I didn't know Unca Thurston at the time. Heh. But it's BIZARRO world to Bronxites who were used to MANHATTAN numbering and block plans. Da Bronx is LOGICAL, so is Manhattan. Hell, even a FEW areas of Brooklyn are. But QUEENS?!?!?!? A *pox* ... :)
Having grown up with a mother from the Bronx, and a father from
Queens, I can tell you we have heard this arguement a thousand times
over!
Queens seems to only makes sense to people from Queens, and being a native, it all makes sense to me.
37 dash 06 89th St!
Queens makes sense to me.
Avenues go east-west and increase from north to south, streets go north-south and increase from west to east. Numbered roads, drives and terraces run parallel and in between avenues where necessary to fill gaps. Places and courts fill the gaps for streets and lanes ways and crescents go both ways. Address numbering is based on the last cross street to the west or north. The number after the dash starts from 00 and moves on, sometimes into three digits. Like in Manhattan, odd is north or east, even is south or west.
This doesn't apply in Douglaston Manor, Forest Hills Gardens, Ridgewood, Broad Channel and the Rockaway Peninsula. The Queens address system applies in one part of the Bronx: Riker's Island, which gets its mail from Queens because of the bridge to Queens.
Ridgewood continues the sequential non-grid numbering and naming from that part of Brooklyn, FHG and DM are also sequential. Broad Channel consists of streets called West/East N Road, where west and east are separated by Cross Bay Boulevard and N is a number that increases from north to south. address numbering on north south streets (including CBB) is based on the cross streets, the east-west streets are numbered away from CBB.
In Far Rockaway are a series of Beach and Bay Streets, separated by Beach Channel Drive, with addresses numbered TOWARDS Beach Channel Drive and numbering increasing from east to west. East-west streets are numbered based on this.
When Far Rockaway ends and the peninsula begins, there are only Beach Streets, which cross BCD and north-south numbering increasing to the next series of 100 with each major crossing, like crosstown streets in Manhattan. Houses begin with 1 at the beachfront. In Breezy Point, the north-south streets are numbered sequentially from north to south, like the bay streets in Far Rockaway.
Named streets in Queens often take implied numbers for address purposes, with the implied numbers varying along the route.
Weird stuff includes Queens Boulevard, an avenue by addressing purposes, being perfectly parallel and adjacent to Austin Street, a street by addressing purposes.
Many old avenues in Queens became boulevards because they go in the direction of streets and making them streets would be a demotion. Grand Street became Grand Avenue, there are fewer examples of streets becoming avenues and keeping their names.
Before the numberization of Queens, there were two numbering systems that existed: In Astoria, north-south avenues were numbered from west to east. 2nd Avenue is now 31st Street. East of the border between LIC and Newtown, there were north-south streets also numbered from west to east. 82nd Street-Jackson Heights was formerly called Jackson Heights-25th Street. In Long Island City, east west streets were numbered from north to south, with a gap between 12 and 13 filled by a named street. 45th Road was formerly 11th Street, 44th Drive (under which the E, V run) was formerly Nott Avenue. There was also a numbering system in Elmhurst where the current alphabetically named streets were numbered, but in the opposite direction, away from Broadway.
Northern Boulevard in Long Island City and Newtown was called Jackson Avenue (makes sense for Jackson Avenue to go to Jackson Heights, or Trains Meadow as it was called) and Broadway in Flushing (hence the LIRR station). Queens Boulevard in LIC was called Thomson Avenue and in Newtown it was Hoffman Boulevard. Roosevelt Avenue was Greenpoint Avenue and ended on Woodside Avenue, its Flushing section was Amity Street.
"Like in Manhattan?" True for the east-west numbered streets, but not for the north-south numbered avenues. The inconsistency for the latter is baffling.
Ah! Someone from Jackson Heights! I lived at 35 DASH 20 94th St.
Heh. Always amused me actually the silly borough rivalries, I was actually having some fun with that post. But I suppose having Brooklyn and the Bronx at each other's throats kept us from heading across the river and kicking some Jersey butt. :)
Heh, I can sympathize with the outworlders from the non-Queens boros. I grew up in Kew Gardens Hills (zip code 11367). Its the land of FOUR "72" streets (72nd Avenue, 72nd Road, 72nd Crescent and 72nd Drive), three 78ths (78th Road, 78th Avenue, 78th Crescent), two 73rds (73rd Avenue and 73rd Terrace) and NO 74ths. It skips from 73rd to 75th. There is also just one 79th (Avenue). Many's the time I helped out wayeward motorists who wandered into the neighborhood looking for 74th Avenue, and remember their frustrated faces when I directed them into neighboring Forest Hills, where there is a 74th.
Even the neighborhood post office couldn't get it straight. I lived at 150 DASH 24 78th Road and we would very often get mail intended for 150 DASH 24 78th Avenue or 150 DASH 24 77th Road and so on.
BTW: My uncle lived in "the Heights" for many years, at 35 DASH 55 73rd Street, just a few blocks from the Roosevelt Avenue IND/74th Street IRT station complex.
I grew up in Kew Gardens Hills (zip code 11367). Its the land of FOUR "72" streets....two 73rds (73rd Avenue and 73rd Terrace) and NO 74ths. It skips from 73rd to 75th
And to top that off, "73rd Place" is in Middle Village!!!!
And 73rd Road is in Forest Hills. My wife's friends lived in an apartment there for several years.
You cannot beat Jackson Hts as for transportation alternatives.
I used to work on 27th, between 6th & 7th in the city.
Depending on my mood, or how quick I wanted to get home, I could take
practically anything to get there.
1/9 to the 7
2/3 to the 7
F to the 7
F then walk
E then walk
E to the 7
N/R to the 7
N then walk
Q32
1/9 to the L to the G
LIRR to Woodside, walk, 7, or Q32
7 to the Q19B
Q66 to Queensbridge for then it was the B
You get the jist....
My experiences with Queens number streets are as follows: From 1986 to 1988, I lived at 75 DASH 30 65th Drive. From '88 to '91, I lived at 66 DASH 62 74th St.
Yes, I agree it will drive someone crazy to the point they would lose their sanity. Why does Queens have to be a oddball when it comes to addresses and the street names like 2-09, can't they just say 209 like every other borough does :-\. And the 5 digit #'s, for example 223-33, some people would think its 223, 225, 227, 229, 231 and 233 all in one place/building, the dash is just mind boggling it should be 22333; sheesh. Or would people possibly mistake the # for a zip code ;-).
Int the number streets, you could have 21 Ave, 21 St, 21 Place, 21 Ct, 21 Dr, 21 Rd and so on that's just crazy and if you don't put the aprropriate suffix [Avenue, Road, etc.] forget it and then Queens is such a large borough; which makes it even worse.
If one looks at the entire address in print, it'll make sence.
It would make sense. Some people don't like to look at things, they're always in a rush.
The Queens street system actually has logic to it, but it generally escapes most common folk. I believe Randy Kennedy did such an article for the NY Times a few years ago on just this subject.
--Mark
One Exception 101st Avenue Continues 2 1/2 Blocks west into Brooklyn to merge with Liberty Avenue. Strange The only Numbered Avenue/Steet in Brooklyn east of E. 108 Street. (Brooklyns Avenues are found in Ft Hamilton, Bay Ridge, Red Hook/Carrol Gardens and Brooklyn Heights)
There are no numbered avenues in Brooklyn Heights.
The numbered avenues however are also in Sunset Park, Park Slope, Borough Park, Dyker Heights, New Utrecht, Bath Beach, Gravesend and Ulmer Park. Also 18th Avenue extends into Parkville.
If the line was built in the late 1910's, Maybe the station would have been double named. By the late 1940's NYC had dropped the names on the streets in Queens.
That didn't stop them from having 23rd Street-Ely Avenue, 71st-Continental Avenue and 75th-Puritan Avenue (although that one wasn't tiled as such).
23rd-Ely was probably to avoid confusion between that station and 23rd St in Manhattan a bit further down the line, especially being the first/ast stop in Queens. Continental actually does exist as you enter Forest Hills. As for 75th, no excuse, although like you said it was never tiled as such.
There are other ways to prevent confusing between the two 23rds, calling it 23rd Street-Long Island City would be a solution.
But there is one station that I forgot for which there is seemingly no excuse: 21st Street-Van Alst. Van Alst refers to the former name of 21st Street: Van Alst Avenue, it does no refer to any neighborhood.
In that case it didn't avoid confusion that much. When I've worked at 23/Ely, I've had people ask me how far from the station was 7th Avenue. They didn't like it when I informed them they weren't in Manhattan anymore.
You should've directed them to College Point ;-)
Nah, I just tell them to take the V train.
That was uncalled for Douce Man ;-). [j/k]
The elevated A stations are double named because they opened prior to the streets being numbered (1915). They kept names to avoid confusion. Notice that the J line has none of the old street names because it opened in 1917, after street re-numbering became official. 76th Street would have opened well after the street's names were all but forgotten to all but old-timers.
That didn't stop the IND from having 23rd Street-Ely Avenue, 71st-Continental Avenue and 75th-Puritan Avenue.
Continental Ave. is still widely used. Puritan Ave was only recently added to the station's name. It was just 75th Ave. for 45 years. The station names would generally represent whatever was in common usage at the time the lines were built. The Liberty Ave el stations had the old names with the numbers specifically because the names were still in common use even though the streets were renamed with numbers. When Jamaica Ave. was opened, I guess they wanted to force more people to use the new numbered street system by completely eliminating the older names from the official station designations.
BTW, does anyone know the old names for 102nd St, 121st St, 160th St. and 168th St?
102nd Street was Freedom Avenue
121st Street was Spruce Street
160th Street was Washington Street
168th Street was Grand Avenue north of Jamaica Avenue, Canal Street south of it.
Damn, I hate the fact that Queens lost it's names.
I'm taking the #15 to Washington St? The J train to Spruce St? Gives the old el a whole new sound.
You can take the G, R, or V to Zuni Street-Rego Park or Ruskin-Cornell Streets.
Those two streets were part of an alphabetical system. Only Jewel Street surivives today as Jewel Avenue.
"Gives the old el a whole new sound."
The sound of "Where the hell is THAT?"
What about 87th ST, where I live? I do know that 86th St used to be named Ferry St, as a sign on Jamaica Ave pointing that out still exists.
Benedict Avenue.
The sure were a lot of segments of Old South Road.
Was there once a full length "Old South Road", then developemnt of Queens renamed segments?
avid
See Kevin Walsh about Old South Road. he has history and photos of Old South Road:
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/Alleys/queensalleys/queens.html
Yes, the full length Old South Road was an extension of New Lots Road in Kings County (New Lots Avenue is a straightened version). And ended on Three Mile Mill Road at the hamlet of Bay Edge. Three Mile Mill Road is 150th Street now.
A while back I had some old Brooklyn Eagle Almanics with street guides in them. I looked up Old South Road from the book dated 1913. It said that Old South went from point A to Point B. I then looked up point A and it went from Here to There. Point B went from Yonder and Far. Finally I got a rough idea of the roads in the area. I then looked up the same roads in the 1918 almanic that had the new names of the roads. Then I tried to plot all the roads on a current atlas. Most of the roads connected with Old South are now in the confines of JFK Airport.
Actually, most of it was north of the Brooklyn water conduit and thus outside of JFK Airport. The last strech of OSR was today's 135th Avenue. So the end of it today is where the Belt Parkway or North Conduit Avenue cross 150th Street. The bit that would have been inside the airport crossed the conduit halfway between Hawtree Creek Road (still on the map) and Road to Bergen's Landing, which is modern day Lakewood Avenue/Lincoln Street/131st Street. It then crossed back north of the conduit at RtBL.
By the Conduit I mean the Ridgewood Aqueduct (present day N and S Conduit Avenues and the Sunrise Highway).
Look at:
http://www.mta.info/lirr/procurement/ads/contract5842.pdf
Why isn't the manufacturer doing it?
Also, MTA has announced a request for proposal to rehabilitate LIRR M3 commuter car toilets.
The Manufacturer, EMD in this case is doing it. the contract went to Juniata Locomotive works. the Builder Super Steel Schenectady is presently occupied rebuilding the NYS/Amtrak Turbo's.
Juniata has assembled EMD products from EMD supplied kits.
And you guys said 503 was going to be scrapped!
EMD has obligation to rebuilt all DE and DM locomotives. as part of warranty. if they scrap the 503 they would have to built a new one to fulfill their contract obligation. even EMD is not domb enough to eat 2.4 milion mistake.
Thanks to all for that information.
Randy Kennedy had an article in Friday's Times about opposition to MTA plans to renovate the 116th, 110th and 103rd Street stations on the #1 line.
Plan to Renovate Stations Draws Ire
I especially liked the quote from the original contract for the IRT which called the system " a great public work" and ordered that stations be
"designed, constructed, and maintained with a view to the beauty of their appearance, as well as their efficiency"
I like that emphasis. As soon as I get the 3rd rail arcing and subway rat sightings out of my system, I want to take some shots of some of the renovated stations that already look like crap. 72nd Street on the #1,2,3 is in the process of having new walls put in, and the new ones have "dirt" stains running down the walls. I think tiles were chosen for stations originally for their ease of cleaning, but you could never tell that from the appearance of some of the new stations. What would it take for a work crew of a couple of workers with sponges and bottles of Fantastic??
Sounds like from the story tha MTA wants to do something similar to the walls of the IRT stations that they did at 81st-CPW on the B/C. You might have a justification for that at 116th due to the Columbia connection, but putting cutesy-poo art on the walls at 103rd or 110th would be overkill.
As for the new rooms, and the dirt problem at the renovated stations, maybe they could combine the two solutions by putting high-pressure hoses in the rooms, connected up to both a water line and a tank of Fantastic (or better yet that green grease/tar remover they have plugged into the lines at those self-serve car washes so you can twist a knob and degrease your engine or get the bug and road tar off your front bumper and sidewalls).
"putting cutesy-poo art on the walls at 103rd or 110th would be overkill."
If you want overkill, check out 28 St and 8 St on the Broadway BMT. Hate all the artwork that they're putting, especially the ones at 28 st, which make no sense and make the station look cheesy.
"If you want overkill, check out 28 St and 8 St on the Broadway BMT. Hate all the artwork that they're putting, especially the ones at 28 st, which make no sense and make the station look cheesy."
In November there was a thread about 28th Street. For some explanation of the artwork at 28th, take a look at this post:
28th Street
I like 28th Street's whimsical look. To my eye, it's funny and it lightens up what is generally a boring stretch of stations. I'm surprised at my own positive take, since I seem drawn more to the beautiful Bleecker St panels amid the decay of the walls and the overall sense of deterioration at Chambers Street station on the J/M.
since I seem drawn more to the beautiful Bleecker St panels amid the decay of the walls and the overall sense of deterioration at Chambers Street station on the J/M.
I must be sick. Chambers/Nassau is one of my favorite stations. It has a glow of elegance that comes out even through the shambles it's in.
It'd look better if they'd fix the leak and change the lighting from flourescent to high-intensity white sodium.
wayne
since I seem drawn more to the beautiful Bleecker St panels amid the decay of the walls and the overall sense of deterioration at Chambers Street station on the J/M.
I must be sick. Chambers/Nassau is one of my favorite stations. It has a glow of elegance that comes out even through the shambles it's in.
As fo Bleecker, I hope they don't mess it up when they do the renovation that is scheduled there, because that is also a great station. Although I do have confidence they will do a nice job if 33rd Street/Lex is any indication on how they will do Bleecker.
Went back and looked over your original post pointing to the art in question, and I can see that many who would resent "neo-modernism" would look upon the abstract as so much graffiti ... art can be like that. Then again, I've been chastised over the years here for appreciating some graffiti (hope I'm spelling it right, I don't use a spellchecker because they cause more problems than they cure, especially Microsoft's) especially when they were whole-car or MULTIPLE CAR murals like "Jungle Train" and "Tina Turner train" and many others, like one car that had a painting of a blonde on it that I'd die for, heh ...
Art is subjective ... so far, the "legitimate" art I've appreciated greatly is the 14th and 8th sculptures (have been to the artist's site and checked out some of his other works, but that gator and the gnomes cutting the pillar which you so kindly provided in the Christmas 2001 page you put up after we got together were SWEET) is the various pieces on display on the BRIGHTON LINE, particularly that nice glasswork at Brighton Beach and a few others ...
To each his own, I guess. But THANKS for showing it - nice to know that we've gotten past spray paint into some truly rewarding bits of magic, even if some of them aren't widely accepted. MY idea of "art" was the blue smoke I could raise by pulling WAY too much air, lapping it, blowing it off, cutting some air again and releasing JUST as the Arnines were about to do the "brick wall stop" ... I took great pride in the blue smoke I could fill a station with on an Arnine if I did everything just right. And geese on the floor was the icing on the cake. Whoops. :)
Performance art doesn't count. Out of the budget.
Actually, "performance art" isn't a "budgetted" thing. Unless the TA has some executive wiglets, deputy wiglets, JUNIOR deputy wiglets, docudroids and adminiswigs dedicated to the line item. IF SO, then let's just let artists do what they do and PLANT the goodies at their leisure and discretion. Wouldn't cost a CENT. FIRE the managerial layers, bid it off to a subway advertisement or other "sponsor" of any repute (for real) and do a "Miss Subways" kinda thing by the advertising agency who places car transparencies on the roofline, come up with a "VOTE" thingy among the public, grab their email addresses for marketing, like AOL or MSN to make CASH from the "hooked in unsuspecting 'YOU'VE GOT SPAM!'" sheep, and take the winner of the "what R U wearing?" poll and give them "space" ...
Many artists and students live on a "I can give it away for free and stake my claim to the future" mindset. God BLESS them, they really believe that somehow, by giving it all away, they'll get rich. Heh. Sorry for the cynicism for those who don't get it, wait 15 years and it'll all make sense. But there's plenty of VERY gifted people who will provide the art, the QUESTION is can we afford the costly ADMINISTRATION of the art, which the artist is usually willing to give away for free in exchange for a stupidly small bronze tag that says, "I did this."
No WONDER Van Gogh sliced off his ear and nobody cared. :(
How many trademark "tch-sssss" sounds were included?
As many as I could get in ... there were SO many things I loved about the Arnines, it was wonderful getting some more in this past autumn. Modern subway cars are just boring ... lacking in "soul" ...
I would have just soaked it all in. Whenever I hear 1689 going "tch-sssss" it almost makes my eyes mist
I tell ya ... what really did it for me was hearing the compressors SHUT DOWN ... that's the sign of a HAPPY Arnine ... so many of the old girls used to just keep running ... 1689 is one happy car. :)
Yeah, 1689's compressors kicked on and cut out all day long in October. No leaky pipes on that car. It's in good hands.
You know, the way we talk about 1689, you'd think it was our pet.
If anybody asks, she followed me home. :)
I'd believe it. I think you two connected.:)
Hey! Taking about one's tuchus is not appropriate material for Subtalk.
There are yung'uns, chill'uns and a baby here.
True, but making sound effects WITH somebody's tuchus is what subtalk is all about. :)
Ewww! With thoughts like that, you need a vacation.
Hopefully in a decade or two, we'll have an economy again and I'll have an employee or two again and will therefore get a day off. FWIW, I don't keep a computer at home, when you see me here, it means I'm at work.
I'm the opposite. I do all of my Subtalking at home now.
This is a great place to hang out while downloading nasties and email. Gets a little lonely at 4am, but I've gotten used to it. :)
I kind of like the 8th Street designs. They fit the Village and NYU. I am not a big fan of whimsy in the original sections of Contract I or IRT/BMT Vickers stations. It fits in better at IND stations and on the IRT platform extensions.
Paris did a nice job renovating the long-closed Cluny station, with art and signature of scientists, scholars, and artists on the ceiling.
http://www.bickersfamily.org/Photos/Paris2002/DSC01232.JPG/view.html
http://www.jerryrickert.com/images/Paris/Cluny-La_Sorbonne_Metro_1.jpg
http://www.jerryrickert.com/images/Paris/Cluny-La_Sorbonne_Metro_2.JPG
http://www.flaneur.org.uk/html/photos/paris7.html
(It is nice that Google finds vacation photos!)
The mosaics are ok, but they just placed too many of them. I'd rather have the boring stretch of white tiled walls (we all seem to be drawn to different things). I would have been content if some of the artwork was placed in the fare control area and not all over the platform walls.
The 8th St mosaics are ok, but I will probably get sick of them after a month. I'll try to enjoy Prince and 23 before weird mosaics are added there in the future.
I like what they did at 8th Street if it's the station I'm thinking of. Isn't 8th the one that has the "portals looking out into the neighborhood"? Or is that Prince Street? If it is the one with the "portals" looking out into the neighborhood, I really like what they did.
Yes, that's 8th Street. I thought they did a very good job there, but I'm partial to neighborhood-themed art. I also like the Queens-themed glass window mosaics along the 7 line. It's too bad some of them are in part-time entrances, so I can't take pictures of them on the weekends.
Ugh. Does the MTA have the guts to say "screw you" to these Upper West Side nuts and do whatever they want? Or maybe they should leave the stations alone and let those communities grow green with envy as other stations get renovated.
This is NIMBYism on a whole new level.
They complain they don't do anything, and now people complain when they do. Some people are just not happy unless they are complaining about something. I love the comment that stated that nothing was done in more than 50 years (which was thought to be a good thing by the person mentioning it). Well these people deserve a station that crumbles around them. Have you ever heard of something so stupid - they want to put in a room to store high pressure hoses, and other cleaning utilites - and they are against this?
This is not NIMBYism, this is NUMFYism (Not Under My Front Yard).
LMAO!!
We do have plenty of both these days!
Maybe they saw what happened at 137th Street and have decided enough is enough.
wayne
That's my guess. Someone should direct them to 66th for an example of a recent rehab.
If they don't want rehabs, we could use them down here at the (mostly beige) 79th and 86th stations.
Or 33rd Street/Lex. Another great renovation. These people deserve their stations to crumble around them. Let the money go to neighborhoods that will appreciate a tasteful renovation. These people are even complaing about them building a room to keep cleaning equipment, to make it easier to clean their stations.
Hold it. Hold it. Nowhere in the article do I read of anyone complaining about the storage room, which itself is just mentioned in an aside. They seem to be worried that their stations will receive the 137th treatment -- after all, that's the nearest rehabbed station.
Okay, maybe I read it wrong. I got that from this quote:
"The plan is also to add a garbage storage room and a cleaners' room for keeping high-pressure hoses and other equipment at each station, work that Mr. Kelly said was a standard part of all station modernization projects and would probably require alteration of parts of station walls.
I do agree just a bit with the neighborhood, the Broadway-style renovations would not be appropriate at Contract 1 stations. However, the stations really need to be renovated. That's why I suggested a rneovations more along the lines of the renovation at 33rd Street.
I also kind of like the "timeline" idea for the station at Columbia. Maybe there could be some sort of compromise that would keep the original part of the station very much like it is, and have the timeline tastefully done on the extension portions, of course blending well with the old part of the station.
I do agree that the renovation at 137th is way overbearing, and not at all appropriate. 110th has beautiful name tablets, and must be tastefully restored. I am confident that they would do a good job. For them to compare it to the monstrosity that 137th has become would be unfair. Thankfully, in recent years they have not been renovating stations that way anymore.
I'm only suggesting that they may not realize, as we do, that the TA has shifted from (e.g.) 137th-style rehabs to (e.g.) 66th-style rehabs, and that a repeat of 137th won't happen.
I do have one question. Those three stations have 1930's extensions which vaguely resemble the IND style. Would the rehabs keep the extensions in that style or would they "upgrade" them to the 1904 style? I hope they're kept the way they are. (The 50's extensions are a different story entirely.)
As for the IND-like extensions on the IRT, I hope they preserve them also. Those were nicely done, and do actually blend with the old parts of the stations. And like mentioned, the 50's extensions are another story, and need a "retro" look place over them, either replicating the IND-like extensions of the 30's, or making them look like the Contract 1 section. I would prefer the former, especially if they preserve the 30's section where it does exist.
I also love the column tiles they put up in in the 30's also. I hate that they were removed from some stations Like 137th and Spring, and many others. Thankfully they kept many (although not all)of them at 33rd. Unfortunately at Canal they were covered over. The only Lex stations to loose them entirely was Spring, and Canal (covered). Many do remain on the Bway-7th Line (I forgot off-hand which ones still have them on the 1/9. Many never even had them to begin with). I went through 66th about a month ago, and can't remember if they removed the pillar tiles there during that great renovation, I was so busy looking at the walls.
I don't think 66th ever had pillar tiles. The local stations between 42nd and 96th weren't touched until the 50's. I can't think of any stations below 42nd with the tiles, for that matter.
Nope, only the contract one portions of both Lexington and Bway-7th ave got them when they did the extensions. After I posted that I realized that 66th never had them to begin with because as mentioned, 42 to 96th weren't touched until the 50's. Many of the local stations above 96th did have them or still do have the 30's column encasings.
33rd, 23rd and Bleeker have pillar tiles. Are they all located only in the later platform extensions?
28th also has them. In the 30's when they did a lot of these extensions, they covered over the round IRT pillars also in all of the stations, in addition to the extensions. You can tell where the old IRT section is because the tile encasings are skinnier than on the extensions.
The local stations on the Lexington line, between 14th and BB, have encasings on the extensions on the 1930's side (Springs are removed completely, and Canal's resurfaced). On the other side with the aqua 1950's extension, there were never tile encasings. The Contract one portions of all those stations have/had it on both sides.
If they go by the usual historical guidelines, which I'm assuming the neighborhood wants them to do (Dept. of the Interior), they would leave the 30's additions in 30's style.
137th St was done in 1985, eons ago. I can't believe that UWS riders are as ill-informed as to believe that the 137th St. rehab is still the way things are done. Maybe they should look at the lower BMT Broadway local stations.
Former President David Gunn sure allowed to kill a station like 137th/CC with an ugly rehab as that
David Gunn became NYCT(A) President in February 1984. If memory serves, 137th Street was modernized in 1982.
David
It's still an ugly rehab, 1982 or 1984, doesn't make a difference.
My point was that it makes no sense to blame David Gunn for something that happened before he got here.
David
That's not the impression I took from the article. They don't want any modern changes to their precious stations.
As a former Upper West Sider (106th between Riverside and West End) and user of 103rd and 110th Street Stations, I am absolutely NOT surprised by the community reaction to the station rehab plans. Obviously, my former neighbors want the rehab and the train service - but they've become too snooty lately to put up with "working-class" station support functions such as cleaning, storage, or safety.
Needless to say, I've regained most of my sanity since moving to Queens!
- - - - -
[Or maybe they should leave the stations alone and let those communities grow green with envy as other stations get renovated.]
There's an idea!!! Lots of communities would LOVE to have their own stations rehabilitated, AND wouldn't mind a room or two for equipment and supplies to keep their station clean and safe.
Yeah, telll the TA to come down to the SeaBeach (my new home line). Now I get to see, on a daily basis, what Fred is so angry about! I especially love the Avenue T entrance to the Avenue U station. You can make out the outline on the floor where the token booth once was. No Metrocard machines & lots of standing water, too...It's a middle-class neighborhood full of people too busy working to make waves. No wonder why nothing gets done.
All they would have to do is to look to another renovation in a similar station, 33rd Street-Park Avenue South. If they go that route with 103, 110 and 116, they should not have any problem. I agree, if they start adding stuff that wasn't there already, they risk compromising the historical integrity of the stations. Yes, the tile is ratty in some spots, especially at 110 and 116 - but that doesn't give them license to desecrate it. We don't want a repeat of 149th Street-3rd Avenue, as nice as that one is, it destroyed the original artwork.
wayne
The Columbia Spectator had an article on the controversy over the renovation plans for 110 & 116th Street stations that emphasized the historical conection between the station designers and Columbia and St. John the Divine. The article gave me a feeling for where the people who oppose aspects of the renovation are coming from.
Columbia Spectator Article
While I am generally sympathetic to landmark preservation, the opponents of these restorations just are making a mountain out of a molehill. A few extra historical flourishes on the station wall are not going to "represent . . nothing less than a disaster for the entire preservation effort in Morningside Heights" -- as the opponents say in a typical New York NIMBY over-the-top overreaction. And their ending statement - "We have few enough landmarks up here [in Morningside Heights]," she said. "We don't need to just toss aside two of them" -- is just ridiculous. Morningside Heights is chock-a-block with official ladmarks -- including much of the Columbia campus, Union Seminary, Grant's Tomb and many others, as well as unofficial ones that aren't going anywhere, like Riverside Church and St. John the Divine.
HeyPaul, I'm amazed AGAIN by some of the input you get.
That little newpaper is a hard one to get since it has a very limited distribution & is basically a in-house document. Didn't know they put it on-line. Might check it out in the future to see how my old bosses are doing.
Thurston... I get this stuff off Google News Feature... It scans 1000's of papers worldwide...
Go to Google
Web Images Groups Directory News
Click on "News"
Enter something like "Columbia University"
Hit "Search News"
It will give you a whole bunch of articles sorted by their system of relevance...
If you want to see the latest news first, click on
"Sort by Date" over on the right side
One bad feature is that if the article was an AP article and appeared in 30 papers, it will give you links to the same article in all 30 papers...
It's a neat way to find breaking stories...
Thanks, myfriend ! Eye learned something of value here AGAIN,
and thanks Dave too !
I was watching the 10 o'clock news on Ch 9 and the family of the 23 year old motorman who died on the AirTrain is suing for $50 million, claiming he was a Customer Service employee and WAS NOT a motorman. I have a feeling the family will win a couple of millions of dollars but not the $50M they are asking for.
I would like your opinions on this.
The suit, in my opinion, hinges on a couple of factors. One is the rank the young man held and whether the PA or Bombardier should have let him test that equipment on that day. Then, if the NTSB hasn't come up with one already, there should be a working theory out there on what infrastructural features that could have kept the train from crashing as well as the testing conditions that may have posed an additional hazard.
This may be flawed greatly, but one thing is certain: it's all moot if summary judgement/motion to dismiss is granted in favor of the defendant.
I think it's premature to assume anything. The guy was testing trains for some time before the crash. It sounds like a stunt a shyster (I mean, lawyer) cooked up. We'll see how far it gets.
Two things spring to mind.
First is that I seem to recall that the guy was single with no dependents. Liability issues aside, even in a case of gross neglegence it is very difficult to see how the family will be able to show that they have been financially damaged to the tune of $50 million. The only way to get a sum like that would be from an emotional jury verdict -- for that you usually need the grieving widow and a toddler or two -- grieving parents just don't get the big bucks.
Second is the issue of liability. Who's employee was he -- Bombardier, PANYNJ -- and what workers comp act (if any) are they subject to (New York State, Federal Railroad Employee, other, none). Depending on the act, you would need to prove anything from gross neglegence to intentional actions before you can win anything in a lawsuit.
There has been a fair amount of speculation as to whether the employee himself contributed to his own demise. If he was completely unresponsible, I'd guess that the settlement would be about $2.5 Million, with 30% going to the attorneys. If there was some degree of negligence on his part, then I'd expect something like $1 Million with attorney fees being closer to 40%.
CG
I wonder if this lawsuit will further delay the opening of Airtrain ?
Bill "Newkirk"
"I wonder if this lawsuit will further delay the opening of Airtrain ? "
Not at all. The plaintiffs are not seeking an injunction to AirTrain's operation, only money to compensate it for the test operator's death.
This particular lawsuit has no effect at all on AirTrain's testing and operation. Frankly, it sounds like an incredible manufactured crock of ----.
It may or may not, however, influence how Bombardier, the contract operator of AirTrain, writes the requirements for the Operator position. But I doubt even that.
A few salient points to consider:
Both the PA and Bombardier were obligated to provide a safe work environment for the young man under New York State law. This extends to such common sense precautions as securing multi-ton ballast in such a way as to render it immobile, even during a derailment.
Secondly, an employer's obligation to provide workplace safety extends to training. One of the questions in this case is going to focus on whether and when the train's operator was instructed in the operation of these cars. If, as the media has reported, this man was a customer service rep for Bombardier, then was it in his job description to operate trains?
Finally, what aspects of train operation played a part in this man's death? For example, was the train being operated in such a way that lateral forces inside the train cars made the ballast shift? Being unsecured and shifting was the proximate cause of death, but as in most accidents, a cascade of events led up to this. What was the "error cascade" which made this accident begin to happen?
These items are, to me, the essence of the plaintiff's case. Thoughts, anyone?
"Both the PA and Bombardier were obligated to provide a safe work environment for the young man under New York State law. This extends to such common sense precautions as securing multi-ton ballast in such a way as to render it immobile, even during a derailment. "
Absolutely true - but true even if the employee were a veteran train operator.
"Secondly, an employer's obligation to provide workplace safety extends to training. One of the questions in this case is going to focus on whether and when the train's operator was instructed in the operation of these cars. If, as the media has reported, this man was a customer service rep for Bombardier, then was it in his job description to operate trains? "
It sounds to me from previous accountslike he applied for, and was trained and promoted to test train operator. So long as his training was appropriate, there's nothing wrong with that. Iam skeptical about the family's claim (and the $$$ they are seeing floating in front of their eyes).
A janitor who goes to law school can become a lawyer. A candystriper who goes to nursing school becomes a nurse. A customer service rep whose employer trains him/her to drive trains can become a T/O.
"Finally, what aspects of train operation played a part in this man's death? For example, was the train being operated in such a way that lateral forces inside the train cars made the ballast shift? Being unsecured and shifting was the proximate cause of death, but as in most accidents, a cascade of events led up to this. What was the "error cascade" which made this accident begin to happen? "
Maybe. The NTSB is working on it.
My point is that the physical circumstances around the accident are relevant to assessing Bombardier and the PA's responsibility regardless of who is driving the train. The operator was running the train at high speeds, inappropriately; if his employer had specifically instructed him not to do so, his previous job description is not relevant.
Bombardier and the PA may have some liability in this (the NTSB's report is crucial). But the family's claim, as reported in the paper, sounds like a crock. I could be wrong, but it's highly unlikely.
I don't see the family's claim as a "crock". Their son is dead, and God Forbid I were ever to lose one of my boys this way, I'd want to be made whole, too. Also, if this makes the PA and Bombardier (as well as others) improve safety, then ANY verdict amount is OK with me. Remember, they DID fail to secure the ballast in the first place...
Remember, they DID fail to secure the ballast in the first place...
Humph! And what subway train, what passenger train anywhere has its load secured so that it will not shift. Not even all freight trains have their loads secured all that well. (ie... the RR has no idea how well some dolt at a manufacturing plant secured the contents of a car or container.
A test train probably *should* have had the load secured, depending on what they were trying to test for at the time.
Elias
They were trying to simulate the "crush load" of rush hour passenger traffic.
"I don't see the family's claim as a "crock". Their son is dead, and God Forbid I were ever to lose one of my boys this way, I'd want to be made whole, too."
But you might not be entitled to that, and you don't know the way he died from a legal perspective, so it's premature to assume anything. I sympathize with the family's tragedy, but I seriously doubt the validity of their claim rests on whether the guy was originally hired as a customer service rep.
Now, if NTSB decides Bombardier was wrong on their test and mechanical procedures, the operator's family may get some money - that's fine.
If you're saying that the NTSB may rule that the operator's death arose solely from his own negligent, careless operation of the train, then yes, the family's claim has little validity. But based on my own management experience with safety issues in the workplace, that's not likely. The NTSB is FAR more likely to cite the PA and Bombardier, since, as I said before, the primary responsibility for safety rests with the employer. It WILL be shown that a safe work environment was NOT provided here.
Moreover, the legal principle here is whether the PA and Bombardier had a "duty" to ensure safety, whether they did in fact live up to that duty, and if their failure to live up to that duty was the DIRECT cause of the operator's death. That's the test the plaintiff's (family's) case will be put to. Again, God Forbid it were one of MY sons, I'd bloody well want to know why my boy is dead, and if these standards were met. If they WEREN'T, I'd want to know the WHY and the WHO and make them pay for making me live EVERY parent's worst nightmare.
Your points are well-taken, and I agree with them. And they are applicable to anybody operating train equipment.
My only disagreement with your previous post was about the employee job classification. The "customer service" business really does sound bogus, manufactured by a shyster.
As to your predictions about how NTSB will rule on the accident, I don't pretend to know. We'll just have to find out.
It's possible the "customer service" job title is a bit of lawyering. I seriously doubt that Bombardier and the PA were ordering "customer service reps" to operate trains, any more than Jet Blue would suddenly call upon ramp rats to fly their airplanes. This part, you're right, DOES sound highly dubious.
I seriously doubt that Bombardier and the PA were ordering "customer service reps" to operate trains, any more than Jet Blue would suddenly call upon ramp rats to fly their airplanes.
Given the way most airlines (though not JetBlue) are desparately trying to cut costs to stay out of bankruptcy, you never know ....
Don't get me started on THAT...LOL!
Hey, since we know pilots are less busy while at altitude and en route to a waypoint, why not have them prepare the omelets in the first class cabin?
:0)
Only if they serve my cawfee, too (LOL).
Agreed!
Well said, JayZee. We'll just have to see what happens in the future. Honestly, I feel that more of the responsibility would be on BOTH the PA and Bombardier but then again, the T/O may or may not have contributed to the crash so we'll have to wait and see all the facts.
>>> Now, if NTSB decides Bombardier was wrong on their test and mechanical procedures, the operator's family may get some money - that's fine. <<<
And if the family waits for that report before filing suit, the statute of limitations will have probably run and they will be unable to recover no matter what the report says.
Tom
Nonsense. There will be plenty of information available in time for that. You've presented a classic ambulance-chasing shyster argument. Why wait for the facts if your lawyer can't make the case (or is too incompetent to make the case) with them?
>>> There will be plenty of information available in time for that. <<<
Are you sure of that? What is the wrongful death statute of limitations in New York? Here in California it is one year. Also the final report of the NTSB is not something that can be used in court to prove anything. It is hearsay and it is necessary for the plaintiff's attorney to see the same things that the NTSB is looking at to find the evidence necessary to prove his case. One reason lawsuits are filed so quickly after plane crashes is to allow the attorneys subpoena power to see what the NTSB is looking at such as maintenance and testing records and to get to question through depositions the people involved while memories are fresh and possibly not so influenced by those who might be at fault.
>>> You've presented a classic ambulance-chasing shyster argument <<<
I guess that statement confirms what I said in my earlier post about mind set.
Tom
"Also the final report of the NTSB is not something that can be used in court to prove anything."
Are you saying the NTSB's expert opinion, based on professional expertise and investigation (and documented chain-of-evidence procedures such as the FAA kit in air crashes) counts for nothing?
If that's what you're saying, maybe you need to recheck your law books.
"One reason lawsuits are filed so quickly after plane crashes is to allow the attorneys subpoena power to see what the NTSB is looking at such as maintenance and testing records and to get to question through depositions..."
Talk about hearsay!
Also the final report of the NTSB is not something that can be used in court to prove anything.
Are you saying the NTSB's expert opinion, based on professional expertise and investigation (and documented chain-of-evidence procedures such as the FAA kit in air crashes) counts for nothing?
While I'm not absolutely certain, I do not believe that NTSB reports can be admitted into evidence in court proceedings.
While I'm not absolutely certain, I do not believe that NTSB reports can be admitted into evidence in court proceedings.
Just as a follow-up, here is the relevant information from the NTSB site:
To ensure that Safety Board investigations focus only on improving transportation safety, the Board's analysis of factual information and its determination of probable cause cannot be entered as evidence in a court of law.
OK, fair enough. Old Tom was correct in his definition.
"If that's what you're saying, maybe you need to recheck your law books."
Can you actualy cite an example of an NTSB report being admitted into evidence in a civil suit, as opposed to the parties having to call the same witnesses and have them testify in court?
My understanding (but I'm willing to be corrected if you have hard citations) is that a court will not accept a written report as evidence except in the most unusual circumstances (e.g., many of the people who contributed are dead and there is no living expert who can testify to the same facts).
1) Peter Rosa posted a relevant notice about NTSB policy, so I withdraw my previous statement (I should check the law books!)
However, other expert testimony in depositions or relevant written expert testimony (such as police reports and coroner's reports) are routinely admitted into evidence.
"However, other expert testimony in depositions or relevant written expert testimony (such as police reports and coroner's reports) are routinely admitted into evidence."
You know this for a fact? My understanding is that in anything more than a traffic court case, if the police officer or coroner was still alive he would be expected to testify. The point is that you can't cross-examine a report, so the other side does not receive due process of law if it can't cross-examine the relevant witnesses.
I agree if both sides stipulate to accept the report, then it can be accepted. But not if one side objects (and one side usually does if the report has any real importance to the case).
"You know this for a fact? My understanding is that in anything more than a traffic court case, if the police officer or coroner was still alive he would be expected to testify. The point is that you can't cross-examine a report, so the other side does not receive due process of law if it can't cross-examine the relevant witnesses. "
I am not familiar with the "fine line," but even if what you are saying is correct, the fact remains the report is admissible. Often the person testifying will not absolutely remember everything, so referring to the report is permissible during testimony.
I don't think it has to be the author, either: for example, I would think that a department head could be called to testify about something his/her subordinate did, and the subordinate's report (which the department head would be held responsible for) is admissible. But you'd have to ask a lawyer...
Agreed. A report is admissible if introduced by someone who understands the information in it and can be cross-examined about the report.
ALSO, in the case of an ambulance crew's written report about a call (the Ambulance Call Report, or ACR), that document is:
1) a legal document in New York State,
2) part of the patient's permanent medical record,
3) discoverable and admissible into evidence by BOTH sides.
The AirTrain incident generated such a report by the responding EMS crew, and you can BET it will be in evidence by the plaintiff at the trial. Unless the issue is GROSS NEGLIGENCE by the ambulance crew, the crew doesn't even need to be there. An EMS expert witness to interpret the ACR will be just fine. In this case, the ACR will probably document the train operator's injuries and/or death. So therefore, there ARE documents admissible in court that can stand as evidence all by themselves.
>>> in the case of an ambulance crew's written report about a call (the Ambulance Call Report, or ACR), that document is:
1) a legal document in New York State,
2) part of the patient's permanent medical record,
3) discoverable and admissible into evidence by BOTH sides. <<<
What you are describing is the business records exception to the hearsay rule, which says that a record kept in the ordinary course of business and generated contemporaneously with the activity may be entered into evidence if authenticated by the person in charge of keeping the records.
The purpose is so a business does not have to find the person who actually signed for the receipt of a package to prove the package was received, or the person preparing bills to show a bill was prepared. An investigative report can not be entered as a business record. The investigator must testify. He may use the report to refresh his memory if necessary, and may be asked to read portions of the report into the record.
The ACR is a business record because is made on every call and I presume has such standard factual items as the time and place of the call, observable symptoms and what treatment was undertaken. I am sure it does not presume to place blame for an automobile accident, and if it did, it could not be introduced for that purpose.
Tom
You're right, our ACR's do not assess blame. However observations about the scene where the patient is found, and the patient's condition, made by the crew can and do get entered into evidence all the time. So, if the crew who responded to the AirTrain accident describes derailed and deformed train cars, that's relevant. It takes a lot of force to deform a train car, and that level of force kills people. The ACR, by the way, is ALWAYS considered a government document, regardless of the reporting EMS agency.
Basically, a report with uncontested facts is likely to be admissible because neither side will object. A report with highly disputed conclusions is not going to be admissible.
"A report with highly disputed conclusions is not going to be admissible."
Often it depends on who is disputing those facts. A report that states the earth is round is highly controversial to the Flat Earth Society.
One always hopes judges are up to figuring out who is really credible and who isn't, but it doesn't always work out that way...
"A report with highly disputed conclusions is not going to be admissible."
"Often it depends on who is disputing those facts."
No it doesn't. That's not how civil suits work. If one side objects that a written document draws incorrect conclusions, it can demand that the conclusion be substatiated by a witness who can be cross-examined. Generally things like ambulance reports are admitted without argument because both sides agree to the facts in the report.
Even if a report purely states facts, one side can contend that the facts are false. Then the admissibility of the report may require testiomony as to how the report was drawn up, etc.
Of course, a party to a suit who claimed that the roundness of the earth was a contestable conclusion is at risk for being cited for contempt for frivolous motions.
Documents sometimes can be admitted without accompanying testimony if they're prepared by people acting in professional capacities without any interesting in the proceedings. Medical records, including the ambulance records you mentioned, are a prime example. If a case involves a claim of negligence on the part of the person who prepared the record, for example medical records in a malpratice case, it's of course a different story.
>>> I would think that a department head could be called to testify about something his/her subordinate did, and the subordinate's report <<<
Wrong! Unless the department head was present to observe what the subordinate was doing. If the report contains the subordinates observations and any conclusions drawn from the observations, the person making the observations and conclusions must be there for cross-examination. You cannot ask the department head what the subordinate was thinking when he wrote his report.
Tom
OK. Understood.
"If the report contains the subordinates observations and any conclusions drawn from the observations, the person making the observations and conclusions must be there for cross-examination. You cannot ask the department head what the subordinate was thinking when he wrote his report."
Actually, there is an exception (or mabe it isn't an exception). A resident (doctor in training) or medical student writes notes on a patient. The supervising attending physician is liable and responsible for the patient's care and for the conduct of these trainees. The trainees' notes are fully admissible into the record, and the supervising physician may be asked to defend their actions.
Of course, these notes probably quaify as normal business records, which you have commented on previously.
>>> I don't see the family's claim as a "crock" <<<
You obviously do not understand the Sub Talk mind set:
1. Anyone who is killed by a train is a moron, fool, or had it coming (unless he is a transit employee).
2. Transit employees and their next of kin should be proud to sacrifice themselves to transit, and therefore should ask nothing more on the death of a loved one than a few soothing words from a paid chaplain, and a commendation for a job well done by management. :-(
Tom
Sadly, from information gleaned about testing Bombardier R142s, this was a 'vendors error.' When Bombardier R142s were tested on trackage,
stacks of steel plates were welded together and securely fastened upon the floor/chassis. There could be no shift of weight. Accelerated acceptance testing led to sixty thousand pounds of unsecured concrete blocks used for 'ballast.......the saving Grace was that it was concrete blocks and not human lives. Obviuosly, the monorail trackage failed and one man gave his life in proving that the trackage was unsafe. Slow speed monorail (hanging or supportive) has been in operation for over one hundred years. Bombardier MUST take responsibility for criminal incompetence....for the record, Disney had had monorails transporting millions of passengers safely for decades. Slow speed mass transit benefits from inexpensive monorail which fits all highway medians....'AirTrain' was no doubt a VanWyck 980 Million Dollar highway porker that stole necessary mass transit facilities from the public. CI Peter
>>> Obviuosly, the monorail trackage failed and one man gave his life in proving that the trackage was unsafe. <<<
What monorail tracking are you ranting about? We were discussing the JFK Airtrain.
Tom
Monorails have been about for over one hundred years with phenomenal safety records, I guess you're not old enough to remember the Garden State Parkway proposals. Disney has run monorails on their sites for decades. New Bombardier $ 980 Million system fails in trial run with loss of life. NYC gets skunked by Frenchies like R142 trainsets,
Saving Grace is that no-one was injured in pull-aparts. CI Peter
The JFK Airtrain is as much a monorail as the #1 train.
CI Peter:
Don't rant about things you haven't bothered to look up.
Subtalk would be so much less entertaining if people didn't rant about things they knew nothing about.
LOL!
That's true, that's what makes Subtalk so interesting.
Finally, what aspects of train operation played a part in this man's death? For example, was the train being operated in such a way that lateral forces inside the train cars made the ballast shift? Being unsecured and shifting was the proximate cause of death, but as in most accidents, a cascade of events led up to this. What was the "error cascade" which made this accident begin to happen?
I would think that the concept of testing the train with unsecured ballast to simulate crush load is in itself flawed. Live passengers shift their weight or hold on to straps / handrails / stanchions, etc. whenever a train tends to go around a curve. On the other hand dead weight followed the forces exerted on it contributing to the accident.
Has the NTSB given any sign as to when they might release a report? Can anyone guess from their history on rail investigations when it might be?
So, I went in to the city today..... and had a very surreal
experience in the sense that I DID NOT SEE ONE SINGLE REDBIRD SET
in service during the course of my 8 entries/exits at VARIOUS points
along the IRT lines.
The ONLY time I saw a REDBIRD was when I took the 7 from GCT to TSQ.
I rode the 4 train and got r62.
I rode the 5 train and got r142.
Mind you, I was downtown a few hours and made 8 different entries
but NO SIGHT OF A REDBIRD ON THE 4 NOR 5...
Yo.
So, it's starting to sink in now that this is what the NYC Subways
is coming to... and pretty soon every trip will be like this.
SO VERY GLAD I listened to Professor Feinman and Professor Allah
and got me my redbird videos filmed in 2000/2001.
PS.. W-A-S-H that dang Woodlawn armadillo consist..
72xx looked like it'd come out a mudhole.. :s
hey i got the #2 2w ith all redbirds
#4 2w ith all redbirds
#5 2w ith all redbirds
#7 2w ith all redbirds
if only i could have got that camera in the 1/9 /..........
& i did get a nighttime in cab ride #6 in 2000 !!!
whew !!
PS.. W-A-S-H that dang Woodlawn armadillo consist..
72xx looked like it'd come out a mudhole.. :s
I hope this isn't a sign of what is to come. I also noticed that the R142's are filthy. In addition, a few weeks ago I was on the L and those R143's also were filthy on the exterior - you could bearly look through the windows. Sad.
Hint ... WINTER conditions ... water freezes, breaks pipes if below 32. Wasn't out of the question for the car washes to shut down for the seaason. As long as there's motorpeople, and as long as there's someone to put the quarter in for suds, I'd be willing to bet that the cars will be clean again once the weather conditions improve enough that the car barn folks are willing to leave the water on again without fear of the pipes freezing and breaking.
Unless, of course ... JOE BRUNO sets up a carwash at 76th Street! THERE. I combined the worst nightmare, and I'm glad. :)
Okay, explanation accepted. I was looking forward to clean trains after the long summer of dirty trains, due to water shortage - which must be over at this pint considering the torential rains we have been having (hopefully all your snow upstate there is helping our water).
Unless, of course ... JOE BRUNO sets up a carwash at 76th Street! THERE. I combined the worst nightmare, and I'm glad. :)
There you go. Put the two most popular thread subjects together so there is less to click on here......
Heh. Well, PIGS pigsed me off there with his "aren't we tired of Joe Bruno yet?" threads ... only reason why I *despise* the phuck is that he's imposed himself as "ubergovernor" and has decided to take OUT New York City, something I thought was SOLELY the province of crazed Wahabbi type individuals. After all, Usama Bin Laden's already sworn to take out NYC, we don't need republicans putting terrorists out of business. That, and I'm REALLY pythed off that we're trying to run a "high tech business" in "Joe Bruno's 'Tech Valley'" and we can't get DSL, much less something more "businesslike" ...
AND I'm taking flack from people for warning of VERY NASTY realities for New York City about to come to pass WHILE IT CAN BE THWARTED STILL when I really don't HAVE to put up with the guff since I don't LIVE in NYC anymore and have done all this gassing off in an effort to mobilize the lazy and self-obsessed. But I BEND to the will of subtalkers, I'll be happy to say as I've had to do before, "I TOLD you so" when the whining begins after all I've warned of (MTA cutouts, no more rent stabilization, etc, etc, yada-yada) actually happens.
But yeah, we've had RECORD SNOW north of the NYC watershed, though it ain't been too shabby near Kingston either (which is where your water comes from) so the "drought" thanks to Todd's "El-Neener-neener" phenomenon is largely abated for now - further north, we've had SIX times the normal precipitation, down by Kingston it's been more than double ... so hopefully this COMING summer, there'll be water (and suds if Joey is so inclined to permit) and cars should be cleaner once fear of freezing is out of the TA's carwash plumbing.
Bottom line ... if I were in charge of car-cleaning, I'd turn it on for a few hours a day now, but I'd need to be sure there were people to DRAIN the pipes if it's likely to freeze tonight. And since the NOAA National Weather Service has FIRED so many experienced people in the last few months, it's only interns and other short-term experienced people doing the forecasts these days. I wouldn't place a bet on the experience demonstrated in such qwappy forecasts lately. :(
Aaack! He did it! Joe Bruno and 76th St! Aacck! Call a doctor, quick! Gaack!!
--Mark
I would have to say that GP38 will have to get used to dirty R-142s and R-143s since the car washes have been shut down for the season. Once winter ends the car washes will be open again and the R-142s and the R-143s will be clean once again. However, if there is an INDOOR car wash some of the dirty cars will emerge CLEAN. Speaking of washing the car, yesterday I washed my car that accumulated a fair amount of dirt and salt. Now it has been all washed away.
#3 West End Jeff
Just wanted to say, I'm not aware of a POLICY at the TA to stop washing cars, I'm merely explaining that there'd be a good REASON for it if they did. I can assure you, up here where it's NINE degree fahrenheit at the moment (or last measurement, sun's up, must be TWELVE by now) we cut out the water to our garden hose pipe MONTHS ago and drained what is exposed outside the building so the pipes are GOOD and devoid of water in them now, that the TA probably has a similar policy when it comes to pipe-busting freezing temperatures realities.
Wash the car? Sure ... wherever there's a heated place to do it. After all, low bidder for road salting, it just ain't sodium chloride anymore. But I know from when I worked for the TA in the 70's and "car wash" was MORE than just Franklyn Ajaye, Ivan Dixon, George Carlin and Richard Pryor ... but come dead of winter, they didn't WANT to deal with busticated pipes hosing down cars. I assume the same rules of reality apply today despite our 76 St Senator. :)
I have an inside connection for the garden hose so that I can wash my car provided that the temperature outside is well above the freezing mark. The inside connection is in a room that is accessed from the garage.
Speaking of the garage I had to replace one of the springs to the 16' X 7' garage door that was manufactured by the Crawford Door Company. One of the springs BROKE! wednesday night and when it BROKE! it produced a loud BAM! I picked up two 380 lb. springs from United Overhead Door in Yonkers and I installed it on Thursday. Since I couldn't get anyone to raise the door, I had to use a come-along to stretch the spring and then attach it so the door could be raised. I was quite a JOB! Nonetheless I got the door working again. I'm planning to install the second spring by tommorrow. If I'm not mistaken, the T/A has overhead doors, but they are of the roll-up type.
#3 West End Jeff
Been there, done that. Keep SPARE springs. They die on temperature shifts that are quick once the metal fatigues. Anyone who's maintained subway cars can tell you of similar experiences. In fact, I've got a braid loop sitting on the floor right now as a result of a below zero condition that caused one to chuck pieces (including one through the windshield) a couple of weeks ago. DEADLY if they go when you're out there and Murphy's determining the trajectory ... Been through many GEARS too on the motor housings. Bull and pinion ain't all it's quacked up to be sometimes. :)
One other thing everyone should do when it comes to garage door springs. ALWAYS USE A SAFETY CABLE JUST IN CASE!!
#3 West End Jeff
Yeah, for some reason the Sears geniuses that installed the original didn't run a cable through the spring, so it was one hell of a slingshot they had rigged up. And when it blew, it took out BRICKS.
And when a spring snaps, it can give off a nice, loud bang. That happened to us once in Jersey. One of our garage door springs snapped in the middle of the night with a resounding gunshot. I think my father heard it and first thought someone was in the house.
If it's LOUD that gets ya, you woulda loved the sound one morning when I kicked the arm on an Arnine hand brake and instead of releasing, the spring broke. I hit the deck thinking someone was shooting at me from the tower. :)
(I'd just had a loud argument with the trainmaster, and the boy was nuts to begin with)
Yeah, wish I'd been there.:)
>>"Unless, of course ... JOE BRUNO sets up a carwash at 76th Street! THERE. I combined the worst nightmare, and I'm glad. :)"<<
Sheesh Selkirk, did you really have to go that far :0).
Yeah, you're right ... he'd get Paturkey to hold the hose. "I'm Melllllllllting" isn't something we'd wanna hear. :)
Your next assignment is to go videotape the Snediker Ave El before it is devoid of trains. You have been granted a temporary reprieve and have until sometime early this Spring to complete your assignment. And make sure you take video from the street. I did this back over Thanksgiving week. My new video list will be posted whenever Dave has a chance to get to it.
--Mark
Yesh, Professor Feinman..
The # 5 Line was only running 2 Redbirds all day Saturday. I just missed a Redbird.
Whilst on the 4 train today (wearing my 1 line cap) a geese
had the audacity to ask me:
"Excuse meh,... You're on the wrong line.. Are you lost?"
WHAAAT?!?
A SubTALKer.... Lost?
Pbbbbbbbt.
When you're SubTALK
You're NEVER Lost.
Oh boy...
he he lol
i know that the R42 are getting the black flooring done in the 207th
st yard(thought it was in CI)i,ve that almost half of all R42,s have
the black flooring,(all of the 49# R42 and at least half of the 48#
R42 have them along with a few set of #45 and #46 R42 haveing them)
when is the R42 black flooring going to be done.and i do remeber
riding some R68 back a few years ago that havr or had the black flooring,i went by stillwell av and saw 2 R68 cars with the black
flooring,but the other cars had the beach colored flooring,have they
started to put the black flooring on some of the R68,and will they be
by the end of this year or the first Q1 of 2004.and where is it being
done?
til next time
R68A's actually had the black floors first and some cars had it for quite a while. Other car classes have the black floors as well, some R32's, R40/40M's and R62's have it as well b/c the floors bubble up and the bubble could feel so big it feels like you're going to pop a pimple.
As for the timeline for putting the black floor on the R68's, I don't know when the floor rebuilding program will be done but the floors aren't in bad shape so some cars won't even need it for now.
Some of Livonia single R62a's are starting to get the black flooring as well...
Any word about Flushing's R62A's? I guess Corona doesn't even have its own 'Flooring Replacement' Facilities. Or maybe they don't exist. :X
Floor replacement is done at the main shops: CI and 207th St., not in the individual barns.
In 1995-1996 - 16 R68As got black flooring. They were unofficially known as "The Flood Cars", so named for being trapped in a flood at 145th St. some years earlier. Those floors had significantlk began to deteriorate after that.
R-68s were due to get new flooring in 2002. The linoleum is bubbling in many cars but the sub-flooring is sound. Because the car flooring is maintainable and remains safe, the R-68 Flooring program has been put off until 2004-2005.
In case this hasn't been said already let me throw out a few things of interest:
By January 1st, Two R-142s trainsets had entered service on the 5.
Trainset #1 Consisted of Cars 6926-30 and 7091-95. Set #2 consisted of 6936-40 and 7096-7100.
A new trainset has joined the operating ranks as of today: Cars 7101-05 and 7111-15.
New Delivery: 7131-35 delivered to East 180th Street this past Wednsday, 01/08.
It has been said that the last 30 R-142s from Option Order #1, 7181-7210 are to be renumbered. They will follow the sequence behind what will be Option Order #2, as Cars 1221-1250. Why this is being done is unclear, but Widecab5 could elaborate.
Speaking of Widecab5, I got to meet with him and Tom "Mr.R-36" Maley at Fulton Street on Thursday. George had the pen and paper in hand, was jotting down what trainsets were passing by. It was the great Redbird Hunt, and for our troubles, we found 4 Redbird trainsets on the road. 1 Set came from Mosholu, the other 3 from East 180th St. A number of R-33s from the East were running on overhauled trucks. Redbirds really are a dying breed. Multiple R-142s came charging through the station during the 1 and 1/2 hours we were trainspotting.
It was a pleasure to meet with George and Tom, as well as a C/R who doesn't post here.
-Stef
I assume once all the 68-6900s series are in, then some of the 7100s will move to another line.
Im still waiting for someone to update the R142s on the 2 line. Hopefully itll be done by the summer.
7121-25 were out burn testing alone. Observed them at the East this evening. Unsure if they were going to or coming from the Dyre Av test track.
6896-6900 and 6906-10 are out on the road doing simulations. That should be the next train to enter 5 service. If the 5 gets 400 R-142s, the remaining R-142s would head for the 4 (or some other line).
That would be Cars 6701-7100. Starting with Car 7101, would be on the 4 (or elsewhere). As you said, 7100 series cars would be shifted, once the remaining 6800 and 6900 series cars are put in. For the sake of conformity, I'd say you're assumption was correct!
*Note - Car Assignments Subject To Change*
Is it me or does it seem like there's been a lot of car pooling of 142s between the 2 and 5 lately? Software changes for R-142 #2s could happen down the line.
-Stef
Spoke to several #3 line dispatchers, the 3 will get all the 62's currently on the 4. The 7 will get all the current 3 line 62's, and the 4 will get the 2nd option order 142's.
The question seems to be is how and when will the car swaps be carried out?
-Stef
Seems like the easiest way to swap cars is to wait until night, when the 4 runs to New Lots. Send an R-62 set from Woodlawn to New Lots and have an R-62A set ready and signed to go back up to Woodlawn. At that rate it would probably take a few weeks, but what's the rush?
How about swapping the 3 and 7 cars first? Give the 7 its full R-62A fleet and bring Redbirds temporarily back to the West Side. Unlikely, I know, but I can hope.
How about this have the Woodlawn R-62's run through the South Ferry Loop, Have the R-62A's run back in the opposite direction do this in the weekend ovenight period, This would work because the 3 line doesnt run nights and the Woodlawn runs local to New Lots, You stagger the fleets of cars, over a few weekends gradually
How about shifting each unit as it comes up for inspection. If let's say 1301-1305 is due for inspection in 1/13, have Jerome inspect the set, and send it to Livinia. Livonia would do the same. Within 30 days, all units would be swapped.
Swapping the 3 & 4 cars won't take as much time as swapping the 3 and 7. It would be nice if the West Side IRT has Redbirds temporarily but its unlikely :-(.
Wow! Redbirds on the 3! What a treat that would be.
If Redbirds were ever spotted on the 3, I'd ride it all day until it goes out of service. Seriously, if it were spotted I would do a round trip on it and grab the railfan window and enjoy the rare opportunity.
Keep Dreaming!!!! Yesterday there was a Redbird transfer, Concourse to 207 via the IRT.
David: 'Screw Hope.' We're getting SMS rebuild Redbirds in inspection that require major work.....trainset pairs NOT scrapped will eventually replace or assist existing 'arnines., IRT replacements will be R62s or R142s......the next generation of 'scrapped cars' will NOT get a shift up. R62s are the last cars of record on IRT subsequent only to 'New Tech.' CI Peter
Don't worry Peter! There where only 3 Redbird running Sunday and I had 2 Redbirds. The third Redbird was the gap train at Dyre but they put it in service just for me. After the trip it was pulled from service and sent to the back as a Gap train again.
"The question seems to be is how and when will the car swaps be carried out?"
Just one observation which may or may not be in the least bit relevant. Twice recently I've seen a train of dead redbirds blocking the downtown express track at W 96th on a weekday evening (say, 9 PM). The last one was signed as a #4 train from Woodlawn to Utica.
No idea how a 4 got to W 96th at a relatively early hour of the evening. The actual #2 downtown express came in on the local track and went back to the express track at 72nd.
It's quite relevant.
The train of redbirds was preparing to go to 207th St Yard for reefing. Moves would require two train operators, on on each end. Proceed from Concourse Yard to 138th St middle, change ends, and go down to the lower level of 149th St. On the lower level, either change ends north of the station, or continue to Jackson Middle. Either move will set you up to go to West Side.
The train at 96th St was to change ends, and take a line up for a wrong rail movement, cross onto the downtown local track and proceed up the middle to 207th St.
-Stef
P.S. Looks like more R-142 Updates Courtesy of A Friend. I got some catching up to do!
I seen the 7121-25 set at Pelham Pkway on the test track.
I caught it at 8:30 over at the East. It must have been checking into the yard for the night....
-Stef
Well, I had a #5 R142 Sat nite. I was scheduled as a local. So you know I tested out that "7Av Local" mode. :):)
And? How is it signed (outside)? What does it announce?
You just want all the details,......
Well, it showed 7Av local on the outside and from 241St, decalared itself as a local. The transfer annoucements were off. At 3Av, it annouced a transfer to the 5 train. The same goes for 135St and the 3 train. At 59St-CC, it made the correct annoucement to the A and D. Of course its not updated for the N/W weekend switch.
I am mostly very pleased. Now let's just see how long it takes to make the remaining small updates.
(I wonder why the new programs don't include the N/W switch. I first read about the planned switch close to a year ago. Then again, they include PATH at Park Place, don't they?)
Yes, the PATH connection is still included at Park Place. As well as the additon of the 3 train at Fulton(IDK why this was done....).
As for the updates on the 2 line, Im going to assume that they are wating for new strip maps to show the local stops. Just like the R142a's on the 4 line.
Is the light panel behind the strip map long enough for 12 more stations?
They should have ALL strip maps replaced, deleted the announcement at Park Place on the #2 "Connection is available to the PATH train". None of the strips maps on the #2, 4 and 5 lines even have the Franklin Ave Shuttle listed as a transfer at Franklin Ave (although, an announcement has been updated to reflect that transfer), still have B and D at Atlantic Ave, and Bleecker Street.
The R142s on the 5 and the R142a on the 4 do not announce the B/D at Atlantic. Only the 2 line R142s still annouce the B/D at Atlantic Ave. IDK if the 6 R142a's still annouce the B/D/Q at Bleecker St. Yes, the strip maps do not acknowledge the Franklin Shuttle. However, the annoucements are made at Franklin Ave.
Don't expect #5s to have proper announcements or strip maps until warranties expire. We're downloading a trainset found to have a loose motor power connection and the laptop displays that beloved dialogue box 'You have performed an illegal operation.' B-52s looking north on the tarmac...'Bombardier, navigation is under your control. Fire for effect.' CI Peter
Did you reboot the train? And were the booties red, black, or OSHA orange? Microsoft Train ... next stop, hell ...
Yes, the 6's R142As announce the B, D and Q at Bleecker and no Q or W at 14th or Canal. That's on the cars from the original R142A order. The option cars on the 6 have the correct transfer announcements.
I noticed as you ride the 2/5 lines between Jackson Avenue and 149th and 3rd Avenue, there are remnants of this spur, what was the purpose of having this spur? Where did the Third Avenue trains go?Was it some sort of express service? Did they run express service, on the EL up to the last stop in the Bronx Gun Hill Road?
You're very observant. The spur was built in 1904 to connect the existing Third Avenue El to the then-new IRT Contract One elevated along Westchester Avenue (today's #2/#5 route). Purpose was to allow Second and Third Avenue El trains to access the new route, because the subway tunnel connection from Lenox Ave. Manhattan to 149th Street Bronx did not open until 1905. So for a short while the only service on this new route was via elevated trains. The spur was not normally used for revenue service after 1905. For many years Second Avenue (and later Third Ave.) el trains operated to Freeman Street using another, 1917-built connection (the Bergen Avenue cutoff) between the Third Avenue El and IRT subway.
The IRT Contract One line originally ended at 180th Street/Bronx Park (one stop past today's Tremont/West Farms Station), also using a route that was abandoned late (in 1952; you can see a stub to that spur just north of the Tremont/West Farms station).
Remnants of the Bergen Ave cutoff can be seen as you exit the portal from 149 St / 3rd Ave. The El columns were cut and are even with the walls along the ramp onto the elevated structure.
--Mark
I rode the 3rd Ave line in the Bronx in the early and mid 50's.
I never saw any of the connecting structure (except for the stubs) that I can remember. I have only seen one picture of the actual connection structure that showed the Bergen Cutoff tracks on Willis Ave.
Was the original connection on 149th St incorporated into the cutoff structure, or was it removed at the time the cutoff structure was built?
I refer you to Michael Calcagno's Historical Map from 1920:
The Bergen Av cutoff and original Wetschester Av connection crossed at grade. The original connection was not eliminated, just an alternative for 2nd Av trains not stopping at 149th St.
Bergen Av seems a little narrow for a two track structure.
Larry Gault, chime in please.
-Stef
Mellow: The Third Avenue Line of the Suburban Railway was extended to 149 Street in 1887. At that time there was no provision for the Westchester Avenue cutoff. The Interborough Rapid Transit Company acquired the Manhattan Railway Company in 1903 and made plans to coordinate the services. A two track line was constructed east on Westchester Avenue just north of the 149 Street Station to a flying junction with the then under construction Contract I East Side Branch. (Also known as the Westchester Av-Southern Blvd Elevated; today's White Plains Line. As the subway was not yet completed the el trains provided all service over the new line from 11/26/04 to 7/9/05. The second connection was the Bergen Avenue Cutoff opened on 7/1/17 which allowed Second Avenue El Freeman St Trains to bypass the busy 149 Street Station during rush hours. This connection left the original Suburban Railway ROW north of 143 Street and ran along Bergen Avenue to an at grade connection with the existing Westchester Avenue Cutoff going northbound (toward 180 Street).
Service on the Bergen Avenue Cutoff ended on 11/5/46. This was also the last day of 3 Avenue El-Freeman Street service. (The 3 Av had run the Freeman St service since the 2 Av El was discontinued in 1940.)
The Westchester Avenue Cutoff remained intact until the 3 Avenue El was discontinued on May 12,1955. It had not seen revenue service since 1946 but may have been used in emergencys.
If I can provide any further information please don't hesitate to ask.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
PS To Stef: Message received, thank you for the plug. I like that track map you posted. May I ask where you obtained it?
You're welcome, Larry. I look to the experts in NYC Subway History. I found the right person!
The track map is on this site, click on the link for historical maps on the home page.
It was possible to see where the el turned off onto Westchester Avenue up until the Third Ave El's abandonment in 1973.
-Stef
It was possible to see where the el turned off onto Westchester Avenue up until the Third Ave El's abandonment in 1973.
-Stef
Stef: I remember actually seeing those tracks in place but I was too young to know if it was before or after the service was abandoned below 149 Street. I do recall seeing the workman boarding over the center track pit at 149 Street in preparation for converting it into a terminal. This meant that in the last days the thru-expresses had to use the ramp south of 143 Street to access the upper level express tracks.
Remains of two other turnouts were visible on the el in later years.
1) 179 Street Yard Leads
2) Bronx Park Spur.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Thank you, I had the and beginning dates of the service. I was not sure if the 3rd Ave tains continued the service after the 2nd Ave line service was discontinued.
I believe that the cutoff structure was torn down back in the early 50's about the same time as the Bronx Park spur on the 3rd Ave line and the Bronx Park (Zoo) spur on the White plains Road Line were torn down,(along with the removal of the 3dr Ave structure south of Chatham Sq.)
I think the 179th St yard on the 3rd Ave line also was eliminated then also. Another important item would be the date of the removal of the El type third rail from the Westchester Ave structure, which would have inhibited el trains from traversing that structure. The dual third rails were needed for that operation. The subway car third rail pickup shoes were not normally compatible with the el type third rail. Dual third rails existed on the the northern end of the White Plains Road structure where the 3rd Ave line joined that line at Gun Hill Road and on the Jerome Ave Line where the 9th Ave El (Polo Grounds shuttle) joined that line at 165th St and on the Flushing Line, when the 2nd ave El (and the BMT el cars) used the line.
My original question was, Was the original 149th St connecting structure incorporated into the cutoff structure or was it removed then or when? Does anyone have any pictures of the actual junctions or structures (in use) at 149th St, 143rd St, and at Westchester Ave, and the Bronx Park & Zoo terminal.
After the end of service south of 149th St in 1955, the structure to the river remained intact for some time as the 3rd Ave Trains were using the remaining structure for turnback puposes until the crossover and signaling were completed at 149th St. I do not remember the removal date of the structure south of 149th St.
A question about the Freeman St Express comes up on the Bronx Board now and then. All these dates and information are important in Bronx History.
Thanks again,
The transfer from the Q,N,W and R platforms at Times Square to the Shuttle or #1,2,3 service seems poorly designed. When I use the stairways and passageways at the north end of the Q platforms, the movement of people is not smooth. I don't know whether the current pattern is permanent or if it will be changed as a result of further renovations.
I find it particularly chaotic coming from shuttle area down to the southbound Q,N,W (sorry bing-bong) and R service. You have to cross paths with people coming up from the station. When I finish my 3rd rail arcing, rat spotting and dirty wall picture taking, I think I will take some shots of people flow in this area. (It's particularly critical for me in the evening rush hour, when I have to negotiate my bicycle and American Flyer trailer wagon loaded with scrap metal down these poorly designed stairs and passageway.)
While I am ranting about people flow, I must admit to never really understanding the connection to the Port Authority Bus Terminal from this same area.
They have just opened a new passageway that connects to the #7 and 8th Av service. The old series of ramps has always struck me as wasteful. I guess that there is a steep drop in elevation between the shuttle level and the 8th Ave service, but why all ramps. Why not one steep ramp which would be fun to go down with the bike?
As of late, I take the escalator down to the #7 platform and take the next stairway up to the passageway way with all the clumps of dirt up on the ceiling conduits. That seems to save a about 1/2 mile of walking the ramps. And where are the people selling turtles?
I think part of the problem is caused by the signage between the BMT and IRT sections of the complex. In both direction, passengers are directed via the busy 42nd Street mezzanine, where they cross paths with shuttle passengers. I prefer to ignore the signs and transfer via 41st Street -- while the passageway is narrow, it's never crowded, and I don't get dumped at the far north end of the IRT platform.
"I prefer to ignore the signs and transfer via 41st Street -- while the passageway is narrow, it's never crowded, and I don't get dumped at the far north end of the IRT platform."
Thanks for your 41st bypass route. I tried that today and there were no crowds. It takes you right by the Jack Beal colorful mosaic, and you avoid the groups of acrobats whose performances really congest the place.
I even have a bypass-bypass route for weekdays when I'm using a Fun Pass: exit at 40th Street, walk one (very short) block, and reenter. The 40th Street mezzanines are both closed weekends and nights, and of course this option is only available with an unlimited.
"As of late, I take the escalator down to the #7 platform and take the next stairway up to the passageway"
Excellent choice when coming from the level above the 1/2/3 platforms. The endless ramp is truly annoying.
When coming from the 1/2/3 platforms and heading for 8th Ave, just go down one of the flights of stairs from those platforms (slightly south of mid-platform), and then you can walk fairly horizontally.
I noticed two new plaques at Times Square yesterday.
The MTA finally put up a plaque near Jack Beal's "The Return of Spring" mosaic in the Times Square complex.
Reflections off Jack Beal Plaque
I had been told a couple of months ago that there would be another mosaic going up across from the Jack Beal mosaic. I noticed that they have set up spot lights on the opposite blank wall. I would really like to watch how a mosaic gets installed.
The second plaque I noticed was on the S/B platform of Q,N,w,R between the 8 and 10 car marker signs. At first I thought it was an unusually concentrated pile-up of chewing gum. I wondered if someone was deliberately leaving his mark on the station.
My best guess now is that one of the flourescent light transformers burnt out and the tarry residue on the ground is from the inside of the transformer.
I must say that I found the chewing gum explanation
more intriguing.
Plaque Build Up on Platform
Yesterday I was on a southbound train 6 trin around 5:45PM. In car #7301 on the L1 & L2 door pannels there was extreame rust. It was not structually a problem since it was surface only, but you could see it from 5 ft away. Also it was only on the scratched texture, not the part where it narrows for the window pane gasket (smooth). Bad steel or the doors where left out in the rain too long when the car was being built?
ou always see that on the R142 series. It is just rain and snow drying up.If you get a high powered hose or something that puts out water at high presure you will get those stains off.
AMTRAK MODELIN
www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
nah, its not rust, impossible, those trains are stainless steel, not carbon based steel. I highly doubt that its rust, maybe some high amounts of dust of dirt, a spray and it will be shiny like new.
"Yesterday I was on a southbound train 6 trin around 5:45PM. In car #7301 on the L1 & L2 door pannels there was extreame rust."
Are you sure it was EXTREME rust ? Perhaps due to cessation of winter car washing, maybe stains from dripping rusty tunnel water. Stainless steel doesn't rust, and not supposed to.
Bill "Newkirk"
Sounds like dirt or smeared grease or something like that.
I noticed on the R-142a's on the Woodlawn, looks like a brown film of dirt, a while back this was on the R-142's on the 2/5, in recent weeks they seemed to be somewhat cleaner
Stainless steel doesn't rust, and not supposed to.
Stainless certainly can rust, depending on the type. The alloy can be adjusted for the desired amount of strength, brittleness, rust resistance, cost, etc. - you can't get all of the desired qualities for low cost (sometimes you can't even get two 8-). Look at Global brand stainless knives - well over $100 for some of them, incredibly sharp and strong, but will rust if left in water overnight.
Yup, see it mostly on the 142's on the 6. Its not rust though, its heavy dirt that is building up, get some Ajax and a Brillo pad and presto a shiny exterior again!
I noticed it last week, and it sure looks like rust, i.e. FeO (and its various other forms), and I'm afraid that the "Fe" was sloughed off of the R-142a, in an extremely thin layer. That's the result of rust. It must be the effect of the heavy rain and snow we've had recently.
This was on the inside of the car.
Just wondering how common that acronym is?
Boston before it became the MBTA
LA back in the late 50's and today
BTW the most common mistake in the NY MTA is the T stans for Transportation and not Transit. Our MTA also has bridges, tunnels and airports, which is why the T is for Transporation.
CTA or Cosmopolitan Transportation Agency is another popular name along with Rural Transportation Agency or RTA. Of course there can only be one real NTA.
WAMTA, Metro-Dade-MTA are some
It's not "WAMTA" -- it's "WMATA":
Washington
Metropolitan
Area
Transit
Authority
David
In Fresno Calif it is the Fresno Area Transit, some one there accidentaly printed it as the Fresno Area Regional Transit(You figure it out)
The MTA should start their own TV station called Metropolitan TransportationVision. :(:))
Here's a couple more "MTA's" that I know of.....
Des Moines Metropolitan Transit Authority (Iowa)
Mendocino Transit Authority (Ukiah, California)
Mendocino Transit Authority (Ukiah, California)
One could argue that's not a "real" MTA, as the M doesn't stand for Metropolitan.
Baltimore, Maryland
Los Angeles, CA
Flint & Genesee Counties, Michigan (http://www.mtaflint.org/)
And MTA is even a service provider! http://www.mtaonline.net/
--Mark
Baltimore's system is called the MTA, so is Los Angeles's system, just to name some systems.
The name change in Los Angeles is relatively recent. I believe it happened around the time the Red Line came into service, though Old Tom would know for sure.
Prior to that, it was the Southern California Rapid Transit District, which ran local and express bus services throughout Los Angeles County, with lines going into Orange County and Ventura County (you could take RTD to Irvine and Anaheim, incl. line 460 to Disneyland via Norwalk).
If you were willing to start early in the morning and spend all day on a bus, you could get from LA to San Diego for less than three dollars in fare at one time: RTD express bus to Orange County, then Orange County Transit District to northern San Diego County, then North County Transit District into San Diego (transferring to San Diego Transit depending on your final destination). But if you missed a connection you could find yourself stranded for a while...
??'''The name change in Los Angeles is relatively recent.'..????
..............hell no it is not !!!
it was named MTA al ong time ago
the lamta pcc trolleys all have the MTA logo painted on em !!
>>> Prior to that, it was the Southern California Rapid Transit District, which ran local and express bus services throughout Los Angeles County, with lines going into Orange County and Ventura County (you could take RTD to Irvine and Anaheim, incl. line 460 to Disneyland via Norwalk) <<<
LACMTA (1993-present) is the successor to SCRTD (1963-1993) which was the successor to LAMTA (1958-1963). The 460 line still runs to Disneyland via Norwalk.
>>> If you were willing to start early in the morning and spend all day on a bus, you could get from LA to San Diego for less than three dollars in fare at one time <<<
Within the last year on Bus Talk I demonstrated a route from San Bernardino through Los Angeles to Tijuana, Mexico (almost 200 miles) which could be done on (8-9) transit buses and trolley in one extremely tiring day (6:00 A.M.-9:50 P.M.), but I did not calculate the fare. (Steve Hoskins indicated a shortcut through Riverside bypassing Los Angeles which shortened the trip somewhat.)
Tom
I've been searching Google aimlessly for stories that would irritate the most people here at Subtalk.
I just ran into this article, which may be in the current issue of New York Press.
38 Hours to Canarsie
It's about a weekend marathon ride designed to stop at every subway station.
Bravo! Next time I want to see style points! In the seventies we had BLADDERS, dammit!
Great article. Thank god we've got this paper.
On WTOP Radio this morning, it was reported that a man "walked into the train" on the L'Enfant Plaza Blue/Orange Line platofrm, although it sounded to me more like a jumper. He died at the scene. The language that they used on the radio wasn't very helpful in figuring out what happened. It did happen about 9 AM. The operator is in counseling, witnesses are being asked to call Metro Transit Police. Trains were single tracked on the Addison Road/New Carrollton bound track as the investigation continued on the Franconia-Springfield/Vienna bound track.
6. The tile manufacturer ran out of number sevens, and it was too expensive to move the station to 80th Street.
5. They used the wrong plans and the station is only equipped to take monorail cars.
4. HeyPaul kept stealing the token booths to decorate his apartmrnt.
3. BMTman won't move his BU train out of the connecting tunnel.
2. It's a conspiracy to bankrupt SubTalk by using up all Dave's bandwidth talking about it.
1. A unicorn herd blocked the tracks and PeTA got an injunction to prevent the Board of Transportation from driving them out.
Hahahahahahaha! LOVE it!
You forgot Reason Number 7:
The TA was jealous of the attention UFO's were getting, and decided at little "conspiracy theory" publicity would drive up ridership.
And how about Number 8:
The local Mob Boss in Queens told the TA he needed a place to put Jimmy Hoffa. (I know, I know, it was years after, but hey, it's a joke, eh?)
Would that mob boss be one John Gotti? After all, 76th Street was in his domain.
So this was his domain?
Was he master of his domain?
I do not believe that he was a Primary Domain Controller.
--Mark
LOL. If there weren't a 76th, we'd have had to invent one.
Maybe we can get up a petition to have it named after a certain Senator, arrange to have a bronze bust cast and mounted. I'd bet it'd be open in a month, replacing Euclid as a terminal. :)
0. Because somebody prophesized the future existence of Subtalk and wanted to make sure there would be a topic when everything else here gets boring.
You made my day. "Dougie Lucianos" favorite BU. #1228.
;-) Sparky
Just noticed forgotten-ny.com has passed its millioneth hit.
Way to go, Kevin!
Which stations on Metro North have low platforms?
Also, can someone post the names of the stations closed on the LIRR when they eliminated low platforms a few years ago? I know of Haberman, Penny Bridge, Fresh Pond, Glendale and Richmond Hill on the Montauk in Queens.
on Metro North only a few are left.
For Hudson its Manitou and Breakneck ridge only a few trains stop at Manitou and Breakneck is for hickers .
on Harlem its only Appalachian trail (hickers)
Danbury branch has Merrit 7 a private station.
on Waterbury Branch we got Derby/Ansonia/Seymour/Beacon falls/Naugatuck
Danbury branch has Merrit 7 a private station.
Explain how it is a private station.
The station is owned by and maintained by Merrit 7 Corporate park.
its not owned by CDOT or MNCW.
Merritt 7 may be privately owned, but it's open to everyone.
It was mentioned earlier that Beacon Falls, on the Waterbury branch, is a low-platform station. It actually has a high platform, the only one on the branch beside Waterbury itself.
Also, can someone post the names of the stations closed on the LIRR when they eliminated low platforms a few years ago? I know of Haberman, Penny Bridge, Fresh Pond, Glendale and Richmond Hill on the Montauk in Queens.
Center Moriches & Southampton University-LIU on the Montauk Branch Mill Neck on the Oyster Bay
Holtsville on the Ronkonkoma Branch
Between which stations were these stations?
.....Bellport, Mastic-Shirley, Center Moriches, Speonk, Westhampton, Quogue (forgot in previous post), Hampton Bays, Southampton-LIU, Southampton......
.....Locust Valley, Mill Neck, Oyster Bay
.....Ronkonkoma....Holtsville....Medford, Yaphank....
Frankly, they could have axed Oyster Bay and nobody would notice either. Why bother with OB when Hicksville is 10 min away and has significantly more, faster, and better service?
Frankly, they could have axed Oyster Bay and nobody would notice either. Why bother with OB when Hicksville is 10 min away and has significantly more, faster, and better service?
Lack of parking at Hicksville?
Probably more that they need to run the trains to Oyster Bay anyway to store them and turn them and do whatever else it is that they do at the end of the line.
I am not sure if anyone is aware of this but life Like (proto1000)
will be available soon. I just placed an advanced order for the 4 car set at Train world in brooklyn ny if any one is interested. they are taking orders or one motorized unit and 3 dummy units with lights and interiors, they can be bourght seperately or as a set.
john
Thank you. Did they mention a price, and whether or not the cars will be painted or not?
In the February model railroader book page 115 at the top of the page, they say that they are in red bird colors, the motorized unit is 69.99 and each of the dummy unit is 29.99. the set of 4 is selling for 149.99. they have lights and interiors and will be available spring 2003. I happen to live in florida so I called their 1-800-541-7010 or they have a info number 1-718 436-7020. these prices are more economical than buying the kits with no motors or paint. but I ordered a set of four and I will eventually will find out how they are. I have always had good luck with life likes proto series trains
John
Thank you.
In the February model railroader book page 115 at the top of the page, they say that they are in red bird colors, the motorized unit is 69.99 and each of the dummy unit is 29.99. the set of 4 is selling for 149.99. they have lights and interiors and will be available spring 2003. I happen to live in florida so I called their 1-800-541-7010 or they have a info number 1-718 436-7020. these prices are more economical than buying the kits with no motors or paint. but I ordered a set of four and I will eventually will find out how they are. I have always had good luck with life likes proto series trains
John
I saw these trains and the 1964 Worlds Fair trains in blue and white they look so cool at the Westchester Toy and Train show.The next show is Feb.9 at the Westchester County Center for more info call (914)995-4050, Its a great show, lots and lots of trains, I'm going again if you into model trains its a great show.
Thanks I missed the first one but I had a friend who bought stuff from there. What do they have there?
AMTRAK MODELING
What I believe you saw at the show was either brass MTS models painted up, or the kits by either Images Replicas and/or MTS assembled and painted in those schemes.
Hot Lunch!
Life like has the exclusive rights to HO subway cars for NYCT. So its all good. I wonder if they will just do old stuff. I want an R142 with working signs and lights.
How is that (exclusive rights) possible? For instance, MTS Imports has been doing NYC subway models in HO for years now. Images Replicas has also been selling them (usually in kit form).
--Mark
I really don't know but like I mentioned earlier their products so far have been good. I do hope they do continue. I would love to get my hands on the standards and at least the R-40's or even the #7 worlds Fair cars. I might be dreaming here
John
Ftrain:
If you really interested in obtaining standards and the R36 world's fair cars, be advised both have been done in brass and the R36s are now available from MTS in I believe resin. Images Replicas will be producing the 2000-2499 series standards in one piece injection molds very soon. Neither will be as inexpensive as the Proto R17s.
If you do not mind paying the price, keep going to train shows, once every so often the brass standards and R36s will pop up.
BTW, the R40s have yet to be produced in HO, who knows! When I started modeling in the 70s, the only brass model was the Silver Leaf standards produced by none other than subtalk's own Paul Matus! And they were produced in the early 1960s. I sold my 3 Silver Leaf cars when the WP standrds came out, and have regretted it. Anyone have a Silver Leaf for sale?
So, keep the faith and support those who are producing these models.
Remember: Money Talks!!!!
Hot Lunch!
thank you for the info I will certinally keep it in mind thanks again
john
Also for those seeking information on models of New York City
Transit, try the New York City Model Transit Association.
;-) Sparky
MTS Imports is planning to produce some R-40s in brass, so we're talking serious $$$$.
--Mark
Mark,
I was informed by reliable sources that MTS was packing it in.
So what is Joel up too? Also he doesn't have to contend with
licensing, since his product is imported and basically sold unpainted.
Yes, brass is serious bucks. I have some NJ International HO Brass
from the eighties and is was big bucks then. Serious inquiries
off this board accepted. [3 sets].
;-) Sparky
Lovitch never has a 'sale' on his older stuff, so I'm not surprised at the news that he's 'packing it in'.
His brass models were more expense than most other guys who offered imports for the same or comparable quality (although not offering NYC RT cars).
I have no complaints regarding the R-21 and the resin subway cars I purchased from MTS back in the early 80's. The excellent worm-gear is flawless for smooth operations, and of course the car body's rivet detailing is superb.
BUT, the expense of brass models negates any realistic plans to make authentic 8/10 car trains. With the arrival of MTH (for the O gauge market) and the anticipation of the LifeLike HO four-car set of R-17's, subway modelers are now enjoying the alternatives to the brass market. I'm sure the MTS's of this world see the 'handwriting on the wall' and will either go with the flow (meaning switch to plastic/resin production) or see their niche-markets dry up VERY soon.
Until recently, mass-produced rapid transit models were not big business and had low profit potential. Maybe the market is changing, I don't know. But in the hobby, rapid transit modelling is still a very small niche.
I never heard from anyone that he was packing it in, but he has been doing this for quite some time (at least for 25 Fall Trolley Extravaganzas) so maybe he's looking to retire ....
--Mark
***"I never heard from anyone that he was packing it in, but he has been doing this for quite some time (at least for 25 Fall Trolley Extravaganzas) so maybe he's looking to retire ...."***
Being the poster, who started this hearsay in reference to the
retirement of MTS Imports. Let me restate, I was informed he was
retiring and in as much as MTS is not his primary occupation, I may
have inadvertently reversed the positions. Please excuse the mislead.
;-) Sparky
So, John...in other words you're not sure if he's retiring from his primary source of employment, or from his 'side business' of brass model importing? Hopefully, I got it right this time...
Double D.,
That's correct, not sure which.
;-) Sparky
He does sell items factory painted. I bought three R-33 singles in the Redbird scheme from him back in September. And the R-32s I ordered a few years ago came already painted from the factory.
--Mark
They can be pre-painted, but did they have logos on them?
As stated on an earlier post, note the absence of the logo on
the Corgi Brooklyn PCC.
As for Joel, his quantity is so minute, the expense of pursuing
an infringment on licensing does not justify same.
But if he did have logos applied, are they licensed?
It's the same as if someone copied your tapes, would you not pursue
legal recourse if advantageous?
;-) Sparky
You are correct in that there usually are no logos applied to them. They're provided as decals that you put on after the purchase.
--Mark
"Life like has the exclusive rights to HO subway cars for NYCT."
Are you sure? Does Bombardier have no rights to its own car?
A friend and I are pushing an R142 project along. We're putting together a five car trainset (one motor, four trailers). It's slow going but we plan to have interior lights, working doors and chimes. We'll see if we can get the Transit Museum to exhibit it (we'll take out insurance for it).
I guess a phone call to MTA legal would be in order...
***"Life like has the exclusive rights to HO subway cars for NYCT"***
It's a misquote, it is not exclusive right, it is a licensing agreement to produce the product in the particular paint scheme with the MTA Logo or predecessors.
I'm not into all the legal jumble/bumble, but if you look at the MTH
ready to run in 'O' Gauge, you note on the box licensed by the MTA.
Maybe someone on the board whose a knowlegable legal~beagle can explain.
As a foot note, on the Corgi PCC Brooklyn Trolley, you'll note the
absence of the Board of Transportation logo on the Green & Silver
paint. They can not stop them from using the paint scheme or car
number, but if Corgi didn't want to pay the licensing agreement,
they just omitted the logo. It's the same as a "Trademark".
;-) Sparky
yeah, and twenty years ago some lawyers at the Cheese whiz system with too little productive work started threatening model train manufacturers who had not PAID money to paint train kits in genuine RR colors and logos. The truly heropc image was the part time basement manufacturer who had been asked to fork over more money than he grossed for the rights to paint his car kits. While there may be a genuine legal issue here (counselor Bredin?) IMHO (and as a CS stockholder at the time I communicated with the corporate office) this is chickens%&) behaviour beneath contempt.
>>> While there may be a genuine legal issue here (counselor Bredin?) IMHO (and as a CS stockholder at the time I communicated with the corporate office) this is chickens%&) behaviour beneath contempt <<<
Licensing of logos is understandable, because no one wants their logos on shoddily produced models because of the fear that they will reflect poorly on the corporation. The licensing fee in most cases should not be a profit center in itself, but be sufficient to cover the costs of policing the agreements with regard to quality control.
Tom
I know first hand about the MTA's licensing program, as I have my license from them to produce my NYC Subway Line products. All royalties collected from sales of MTA licensed products go to support the NY Transit Museum.
And I am happy to wear/buy your products. That said, the idea that Every model train car or loco should pay royalties to huge railway co's is IMHO ridiculous. Maybe a large outfit such as life like or lionel, but when Chessie sent threatening letters to one man production firms like "Roller Bearing Models"(long since folded) who
perhaps sold several hundred kits a year the business got ugly. That firm was the example cited in the WSJ front page article at the time. After it became obvious that the demands for multi thousand $ licensing fees AND royalties for each kit sold wre preposterous, the RR's quietly backed down accepting unfrt $100 fees. NEVER did they demand correct paint shades or accuracy of lettering scheme/car body selections. NEVER did they complain of paint schemes applied to "wrong" car or engine types.
My fault what ment to say is that Life like has the License of doin NYCT subway equipment. Well I mean big company
Now for the statement made by the original poster of the item being
offered exclusively by one dealer and the License issuer, contact
Life Like and verify that this is an exclusive item being produced
for them only.
But also remember what Subway Girl said, all royalties from the
licensing fee support the Transit Museum.
As for BMTman, maybe the Transit Museum will not stock individual
cars only time will tell. Their local outlets may not justify
stocking, as the dealer, is powerful enough to produce and
exclusive, with a allocation for the agency issuing the license.
Case in point, the Corgi SEPTA Painted PCC, it was available from
sources other than the SEPTA Store, but they were forbidden to
discount it. It was sold at the full retail price [$79.95].
This included any Trolley Museum, which stocked same, membership
discount not applicable.
Also speaking of HO Models, a number of years IIRC Bowser offered
a model of a Philadelphia PCC in GO Paint Scheme, which quickly
vanished, since they were not licensed to do so. The other Philly
Models in PTC colors are readily available.
;-) Sparky
Interesting. I was not aware that the cars could be bought separately. That's some really good news as it will aid those in making different length subway trains.
BTW, supposedly, Trainworld is claiming that for the first year of release, that only their store will be offering the R-17's. This is FALSE information....the sets will also be available through the Transit Museum gift shop...
From previous conversations about how you can use any ticket on any line as long as the fare zones are the same, why does this not go for commute in the same stations that the ticket printed out but in the opposite direction of the ticket?
A conductor gave my dad a hard time as we tried to get to New York but we had a ticket from New York to ....
Is there some stringent NJT policy that forbids this use, BUT allows tickets of the same fare zones to be collected?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
You cannot use opposite direction for RTX tickets, full fare one way tickets should be no problem.
Just for the fun of it. If you guys could go anywhere in the world to watch and ride trains-trolleys-subways, etc. where would you go. DO NOT INCLUDE METRO NYC.
Ok Guys let us hear from you
San Diego. It's the most scenic I've seen. They don't have subway system, but do have a nice little trolley-LR operation.
The Pacific Coast route there is unbelievable. Their commuter rail (Coaster) is a nice clean seemingly efficient service. The stations are beautifully done, and nicely landscaped. And of course the views along the ocean are unparalleled, especially in La Jolla and Del Mar. Amtrak runs with the Coaster Route on the line, and Santa Fe (BNSF) runs through with freights to complete the mix.
I don't recall its name, but there's said to be a junction just outside London that has an enormous amount of rail traffic.
For freight watching, there's the Cajon Pass in California.
but there's said to be a junction just outside London that has an enormous amount of rail traffic.
You probably mean Clapham Junction - where the main lines out of Victoria and Waterloo converge and diverge along with the West London Extension, the Windsor Lines and the Suburban Lines of both sections.
I came through the Cal 138/I-15 interchange at the Cajon pass two weeks ago, and all three of the lines running north-south across 138 on overpasses or underpasses had one freight train in the area, with one BNSF train pulled by nine locomotives. Cajon's definitely a busy place, though the best spot to actually stop and watch the trains is on old U.S. 66, which runs below I-15 through the central part of the pass, and closer to the tracks themselves (the road merges back into I-15 at both ends, so it isn't used for much of anything besides sightseeing and has a very low volume of traffic).
I haven't read the entire thread, but assuming that the Northeast Corridor and its plethora of great passenger train locations have already been considered, I will submit for consideration Southwest Blvd near I-35 in Kansas. If you walk into the parking lot behind the auto parts store, along paper-recycling bins, you can see long UP freight consists, which include grain hopper cars (there is a huge grain elevator there), double-stack car carriers, boxcars, tank cars, TTX flat cars for piggy-back and container freight, etc.
Then there is that famous intersection featured on trains.com (a park where you can picnic, watch the trains hit the 2x2 intersection and listen to the dispatchers over loudspeakers) - where is that place?
Rochelle, Illinois?
BNSF and the ex-CNW mainline meeting just west of I-39, far west of Chicago. They've really gone in big for railfans, I think they may actually like the Railfans around, we're generally nice and well behaved, we'll eat at restaurants and so on, and we need film, so it's a pretty good tourist business.
Yeah, it's a good deal for everybody.
Railfans are mostly classy people, I think.
Been to Cajon Pass numerous times when I lived in LA, dating back to the late 60s, before Amtrak, when the UP and Santa Fe had numerous Passenger Trains. Also Techappie Pass on Cal 58 is great especially over the curve.
I am looking for passenger trains, subways, trams etc.
I guess this is kinda cheating, but London - it's just got everything... and I kinda wish I understood the Southern Region suburban lines...
I was in London 2 years ago and Simon Billis took me around, now if I can only find that tape I made
San Francisco. The variety of the various types of transit (they have everything!), the historic Market Street line, and it's a beautiful city too.
Been there numerous times since the Mid 60s. I have a $800.00 voucher on Northwest-KLM, and want to use it for some place I have not been
San Francisco is great. It's my second favorite, after San Diego. The Market Street Line, the Cable Cars, all the Light Rail Lines, BART, and simple the backdrop of the city itself is a beautiful setting. The Golden Gate Bridge is spectacular (second only to the Brooklyn) and it's the setting that makes it even more amazing.
I've always wanted to go to England and see the TGV in action. I also want to ride the WMATA.
The TGV doesn't operate in England.
Yeah... I wish...
I live in North Central Florida and I travel at times around the Ocala/Marion county area to video csx action and I also go to Deland amtrak station near Daytona Beach to catch the Silver Star, Silver Metor and I have video tape of the Sunset Limited and the Auto Train with their superliner cars. IN fact I took some video of a northbound Autotrain that was running two hours behind schedule. That train went by so fast with 3 genisis engines i thought it was 3 inches off the rails. did not stay to close to the tracks with that one
john
The Florida East Coast Railway runs a very competent freight line that regularly runs trains at sustained 79 mph speeds. WI got to see a container/piggyback train rush by a crossing once. Very impressive.
for florida the action is pretty good if you know where to travel and find the action
Trolley Mueseum of Steamtown, Scranton ,PA. come spring when it begins fan trips again.
I love the Laurel Line Interurban! Offical name "Lackawanna & Wyoming Valley RR"
Do mueseums ever visit each other or go on tour.
I seem to recall a few years back a west coast city hosted visiting Trolley cars.
Is it possible that could happen on the East Coast?
avid
I submit London, and Amsterdam.
In the states, Phila, Chicago, Boston & San Francisco
I loved sitting at sidewalk cafes, and seeing street cars go by
while in Amsterdam, a visit to a "coffee shop" seemed to make it all that more enjoyable!
Amsterdam is great
Western Pennsylvania. CSX freight ops plus Amtrak over the Hill and Horseshoe Curve, Pittsburgh's rapid transit. When they had PCC's it was awesome! At one time, early in PATransit's tenure, EVERY PCC was in a DIFFERENT paint scheme. They even had a psychedelic one! Plus the Monongahela and Duquesne Inclines, unique in America in their own right. But the ride from Castle Shannon through the hills into the Liberty tunnel into downtown in the PCC 1970's and early '80s was one of my best railfanning rides outside NYC.:-)
Easy answer! Japan or Hong Kong. No contest. I would love to watch, ride and video all those trains that Godzilla kept destroying ....
--Mark
My brother loves Japan Rail went on a Rail Fan Tour there a couple of years ago, and brought back some awsome videos, he took and bought there. I will be e mailing you with a idea later today
For streetcars try this webcam. Click one of the three modems where it says "Camera Control with Live Video Stream"
Similar in concept is this one one hosted by a windpower group in germany, the windpower station just happens to be directly over the Karlsruhe Traffic Organization's carbarn. It too is controllable, with some 90 seconds per operator, you can pivot, zoom, raise and lower the camera.
If I had to choose a place to railfan, ride the trains, I'd choose to ride the London Undergrond, I hear from others here that its a interesting system so I'd choose that.
Honorable mention, the Japan subway system, I would love to ride the 100+ mph bullet trains there.
You won't find the bullet trains in the SUBWAYS there.
Metro-North rail service may extend to Albany area - 1/11/03
By ERIC ANDERSON
Gazette Business Editor
RENSSELAER - Metro-North commuter trains could serve the Capital Region under
contingency plans being developed by state transportation planners if Amtrak
reduced or eliminated service to
New York City.
The planning began last summer when Amtrak was facing a budget crisis and
threatened to shut down operations nationwide. At the time, work on a new
Rensselaer train station was nearing
completion, and transportation officials faced the prospect of having a major
station and no rail service.
"It's a critical transportation need," said Metro-North Commuter Railroad
spokeswoman Marjorie Anders. "This is something the railroad looked at when
Amtrak was making dire noises about
going belly up.
"There's nothing imminent," she said.
Right now, Metro-North, part of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority,
operates only as far north as Poughkeepsie. Efforts several years ago to
extend service to the northern edge of
Dutchess County were opposed both by Amtrak officials and some local residents.
Now, however, Amtrak says it would welcome service to Albany.
"We think it would be great for the community," Amtrak spokeswoman Karina Van
Veen said Friday. Travelers would have more service, and Metro-North likely
would stop at smaller
communities along the route that don't have Amtrak service, she said.
"We would have to work with CSX [the freight railroad that owns the tracks
north of Poughkeepsie] on scheduling," Van Veen added. But, "it can be done."
Travel by Metro-North to New York City likely would take longer than the two
hours and 20 minutes Amtrak takes because the Metro-North trains would make
more stops.
But travelers could benefit if the two railroads compete on fares. Currently,
full-fare round-trip Amtrak coach tickets can cost as much as $100 between the
Capital Region and New York City.
A space crunch could develop at the Rensselaer station, however. Now, it's not
unusual for trains to wait outside the station for one of the three available
tracks to open up. A planned fourth track
wasn't built because of budget constraints.
And a fifth track, a bypass for freight trains, has been blocked by stored
locomotives and passenger cars as newly rebuilt turbotrains take up space in
Amtrak's rail yard north of the station.
It's not clear how the service would be financed. Columbia and Rensselaer
counties aren't part of the Metro-North service area, but they likely could be
added through legislative action.
Connecticut now pays Metro-North to provide service to communities in the
southwestern corner of that state.
State Department of Transportation spokeswoman Jennifer Post said planners
were looking at their alternatives when it appeared Amtrak was in trouble.
Those alternatives ranged from busing
people along the route to bringing in another carrier to operate the rail service.
"There is no concrete plan," she said.
Watch out Selkirk ... the MTA telephone surcharge is coming your way!
--Mark
Heh. Actually, Senator Joe had ordered the executive branch to come up with a "contingency plan" for all this with rather amusing results. First off, I'm over in Albany county where there's no trains. Amtrak (and presumably Meatball North) would be in Rensselaer, across the Hudson puddle. There had been talk of possibly building a stop in castleton, Rensselaer county but Senator Joe wanted the MetroNorth SERVICE without the MetroNorth TAXES for his county. So Castleton was dropped, the justification was that people would be using Meatball North to come to ALBANY and thus Rensselaer as a "waypoint" would be EXEMPTED from MTA taxes. Since the law involves where the STATIONS are, and the trains don't run into Albany (and still wouldn't), Albany wouldn't be taxed either.
So like everything else, New York CITY would pay for the additional trains and trackage and Bruno would have his penis on the Hudson receiving train service for free. But no, we won't see ANY taxes for MTA services if Joey does this. That's why I find this all so amusing. But hey, let's not say anything bad about Seantor Joe.
Especially if he isn't Senator Joe. Isn't NY the state that runs out its politicians when things get bad?
No, in New York State when things get bad the pols find some way to shift the blame to the Democrats, and get re-elected anyway. (LOL) P.S. Does Hillary Clinton ride the trains in New York? Maybe Metro-North to Chappaqua? (LMAO)
Hahahahaha. Good one. :)
HEY KIRK!!!!! yOU KNOW i HAVE TO THROW MY TWO CENTS IN HERE ...DONTCHA? Someway,somehow.... we are gonna get socked with some crappy ''Trarrif'' tax or tha like for the great ''unwashed'' because ofthis..[and sorry dude.. been out of the runnins latly due to a sudden attack of ''kidney stones'',now i can trully understand what my compainion felt like when she gave birth to our son!!!!!!]toss me an Email and we'll flip the lip about it !!!!
[So like everything else, New York CITY would pay for the additional trains and trackage....]
That's been standard state policy for at least 200 years. The best way to protest would be for ALL city residents to move elsewhere within the State. We'd still be state residents (and thus entitled to state-sponsored services), but we'd also be NON-city residents (and thus entitled to NOT PAY for those services).
Worked for me ... but if you think NYC residents get nothing for their money, those of us up in the deep sticks get NOTHING. We even have to plow our own roads! We do get the bill though too. Some day, someone somewhere is going to figure out where all this money is GOING ... :(
Wait... YOU don't know?????
Closest I can figure is that if we knock down the bricks at the 76th station, we'll find the missing money. :)
but don't quote me on that, I'm in enough trouble.
No, the missing funds are at 718th Street. ;-)
Dang! I thought we'd gotten rid of Al D'Amato ... :)
i work for Metro North and i didnt even hear anything about any future extensions, but at the same time, Amtrak and MNRR, do use the same tracks. Amtrak even has to know our rules and qualify in our territory. Some of our Conductors and Engineers are qualified to Albany. one told me he had to get one of our Genesis and bring it back to harmon from Albany. Amtrak gave him a ride up, and he ran Genesis (215 i think dont quote me) back to HARMON.
I know your a newbee at MNRR, but service to Renselear, is the
Meatball North in house chatter equivalent to SubTalks 76th Street.
It just keeps reoccuring. Good friend of mine, engineer for
twenty plus years, told me that they were contemplating service
further North more then ten years ago.
Will MNRR go to Brunoland before or after subway service begins on 2nd Avenue???
;-) Sparky
WAIT! WAIT! I've GOT IT! (Unless somebody's already thought of this...) The SAS runs awfully close to the Harlem River -- why can't IT cross through the Bronx and go to Rennselaer? Bruno's SURE to fund it that way, especially since it'll be running underground and won't disturb his NIMBY's' sleep.
Not as long as they're looking to tax the trailer parks of Rensselaer county ... taxes are for city people. :)
I heard the proposed extension to Hyde Park was dropped due to public opposition. If Metro North was to run to Albany-Renselear, that sounds like a good plan. I'm tired of paying close to $100 for a 3 hour train ride. However, in my views, and in my current model rail operation, direct service to A-R from NYC can have its toll on push/pull equipment. A change at Croton or Poughkeepsie would be operationaly sound for such service. DM locos can run up to Poughkeepsie, while Metro-North can purchase F40 or GP40 locos to run between Croton and Poughkeepsie with push/pull coaches. As for stopping in other towns, the only station I would re-open is Hyde Park. Leave the current configuration as is. Let Amtrak run straight to Poughkeepsie, and Metro-North will cover Hyde Park, Rhinecliff, and Hudson stations.
Bring back the RDC's!
I *miss* the old buses to Poughkeepsie ... the RDC's were like riding a classic Mack NYC bus ... with that familiar aroma and growl. Comfy as all getout too, and smooth on the rails.
Never got to ride 'em, except on a video tape covering the Port Jervis Line. I do have some rail mileage on the SPV2000, but they are most likely not your piece of cake.
When I rode RDC's in 1979-80, they only ran as far south as Croton-Harmon. From there it was M-1s to GCT. Then came the SPV-2000 which didn't quite get to 2000...
Yep, same earlier on as well. Once diesels got down to the Westchester border, they did kinda want you to put them out ... heh. I always liked the "Po'town bus" ... often ran as two cars, sometimes three, when it ran as a single though, that was a hoot.
Had a buddy years ago who did many of the trips, I'd become such a regular I got some handle time on that train here and there on the northbound, once or twice, did a southbound and had to hand it back to the engineer at Montrose. Croton North looked dimly on unauthorized folks at the throttle, but they were pretty much fair game once out of sight. I *liked* that rig. :)
It is Rensselaer, for god sakes, not one S two SS's
who gives a FFFFlying FFFPhuck
I'd have thought Dutchrailnut would have cared about correct spellings of Dutch names......
not a bit, even my real name gets miss spelled after 19 years at Railroad .
but for people who want to straighten out the internet, great but don't do it here.
there are enough other sites were people worry about spelling etc,
And you put up with that for 19 years?
as long as my paycheck is right, and they spell it right on that :-)
The current configuration is fine, except that there is a chance that Amtrak will cease operations later this year. The outgoing Congress didn't finalize the budget for 2003, and a lot depends on what happens in the next few weeks.
What is the official name of the LIRR line that runs through St. Albans?
the Babylon line
Negative.
Its the West Hempstead Branch that stops regulary at St. Albans. Late night Babylon Branch makes stops.
Frank D.
or the montauk line
Neither. The Babylon and Montauk line bypass St Albans but the West Hempsted line has scheduled stops at St Albans.
true babylon trains do pass St albans but the actual line is the babylon/montauk line, west hempead line does not start till it turns off at Valley stream
true but they dont stop there.
agreed
And Im aware I'm wrong
Theoretically, isn't the line via Locust Manor the Babylon line, because the Babylon line was built by the South Side RR and that is its route? It would then follow that the LIRR branch via St Albans is strangely the Far Rockaway Branch as it was originally the route to Far Rockaway taken by the LIRR ("the Cedarhurst cutoff").
not track wise, if you stayon the same track going southbound, from st albans you will go to montauk
if you do the same from locust manor, you will end up in Long Beach
HISTORICALLY James is right.
Besides, I was looking for the specific name of the branch, just like that line in Queens that goes through Forest Park and Fresh Pond is called the Montauk line, even though the only passenger trip that runs on it is an Oyster Bay train.
When there was local service there, until 1998, there used to be a train that ran from Patchogue to LIC, making all the stops. Well even though it came from the Montauk Branch, it still wasn't a true "Montauk Branch" train in the actual sense, because it ran via Mineola and Hicksville (It stopped at both also). So it ran from Patchouge, all stops to Babylon, then Hicksville, Mineola, Jamaica, Richmond Hill, Glendale, Fresh Pond, Haberman, Penny Bridge, and LIC. Closest thing though since the old days I guess.
I'd guess that the odds of the "Montauk" branch stations eventually opening up again are pretty good. It is a viable r.o.w., it does offer a corridor to the foot of East River. Look ahead 10 years or so. Developmental patterns shift and relatively low density territory will surely catch developers attention. This will increase the need for train service on the corridor. You could see places like Penny Bridge become new nodes of residential development.
It always was the coolest rail branch in the city, IMO. The Fresh Pond stop was amazing. Boarding a train there was like, being in a Trains magazine circa 1949 or so. I did it once from there to Richmond Hill. The conducter almost seemed angry that I had figured it out, like I had found a way to Brigadoon.
Hell, I remember one night, I caught a train in L.I.C. to, I think, Mineola. It was snowing, the industrial landscape and the factories all coated cold white, blurred into smoothness, and you could see the distant towers across the river, hear the train whistle blowing somewhere out in the storm....nice, real nice.
It always was the coolest rail branch in the city, IMO. The Fresh Pond stop was amazing. Boarding a train there was like, being in a Trains magazine circa 1949 or so.
Fresh Pond was my favorite. I loved using that station, and it was very convenient for me because I was able to walk to it when I still lived in Ridgewood, and I needed the LIRR; I didn't need to take the subway to Jamaica or East New York. Unfortunately, I would have used it much more if they had some kind of normal service on the line. Anyway, most people were totally oblivious to the fact that there was a station there. The LIRR didn't make ANY effort to advertise the fact either, as until about 1995 or so, the "stations" on that line didn't even have signs.
Anyway, Fresh Pond was a lot of fun. In the winter it was loads of fun. In the evening, two trains stopped there between 5 and 6. Now remember that in the winter it gets dark at 4:30. You would leave the street down that long winding walkway and decend the stairway to trackside to the total darkness at Fresh Pond station. There you waited in pitch blackness. No light at all, except just a slight glow from Metropolitan Ave in the distance. Then all of a sudden, in the distance you would hear the horn of the approaching train. Minutes later a light would appear through the tunnel next to the station, and it was almost as if satan himself was coming for you as the quietness and darkness was disturbed by that blinding light, and the noise of the horn, and diesels approaching you....the closest thing to hell on earth you can get. That line was so much fun.
This station seems like "hell" in the daylight, now picture this scene in total darkness, waiting for a train.
actually... that is wrong, the reverse is true
It IS officially the montauk line, and almost all of the trains that stop there are BABYLON trains, only 2 westbound trains and 1 eastbound train that stop there have an origin or destination of West Hempstead
That is odd, because the timetable that has all the schedule info for Saint Albans is the West Hempstead one. Maybe the trains that stop there share branches, Babylon, Long Beach etc. In any case, a much-needed rehab of Saint Albans is under way.
wayne
I've never understood why St. Albans was on the West Hempstead timetable. The current breakdown of trains from that station is:
Weekday WB - 6 trains daily, 4 from Babylon, 2 from West Hempstead.
Weekday EB - 10 trains daily, 9 to Babylon, 1 to WH
Weekend WB - 9 trains daily, all from Babylon
Weekend EB - 8 trains daily, all to Babylon.
The weekday schedule has been like that almost as long as I can remember (there used to be one EB rush hour train that went to Long Beach). In more recent years, the WH branch has operated as a weekend shuttle to/from Jamaica (rather than the current Valley Stream shuttle) -- at those times the WH branch served St. Albans on weekends and the Babylon trains bypassed.
As you noted, St. Albans station is undergoing a renovation. The station is being rebuilt as a four-car platform. In fact, the 2-car southern most (east) part of the platform just opened yesterday and it looks great. The northern end of platform is now closed so that it can be rebuilt. For the duration of the construction, the entrance from Linden Blvd has been closed, and passengers must now access the station from a tunnel and what looks like a temporary stairway at the south end. I believe this tunnel has always existed, but was closed off years ago.
CG
It's the Babylon Line but it's the Montauk Branch, notwithstanding that many Montauk trains operate via the Main Line and Central Branch Extension until they reach Babylon.
Much of the Montauk Branch tracks the former South Side Railroad, from LIC through Richmond Hill and Jamaica, St. Albans, Babylon and East.
The other two "main" lines are the Main Line from Penn through Woodside, Jamaica, Hicksville, then out to Ronkonkoma and Greenport and the Atlantic Branch from Brooklyn, through Jamaica, via Springfield Gardens to Valley Steam.
Much of the Montauk Branch tracks the former South Side Railroad, from LIC through Richmond Hill and Jamaica, St. Albans, Babylon and East.
Errmmm... but the tracks via St Albans were LIRR not South Side. The South Side's line went via Locust Manor. The line via St Albans is what remains of the LIRR's branch to Far Rockaway (the South Side's branch being the one in service to Far Rockaway on the present-day LIRR). So the Montauk or Babylon Branch must be the routing via Locust Manor.
you are 99 per cent right, but from Jamaica down through locust Manor, Laurelton, rosedale, the south two tracks that ride along the babylon line is the atlantic branch and it covers valley stream the far rockaway and the long beach lines actually come off of the atlantic branch
Hey! You stole my question! And I was looking for the official Timetable name of the line. Like the Amtrak Hell Gate Line.
I use to live right near the big bend where the line crosses the belt parkway but that was a long time ago and that what I thought it was back then correct me if I mixed it up
You asked me instead of asking Subtalk. Your loss (or gain, whatever).
And the official timetable branch is West Hempstead, I already told you that.
According to the 1967 LIRR Employee Timetable -- page 6 -- mileage listings, it is listed as a "Montauk Branch" station..though most of the trains topping there end their runs at Babylon.
SuperSteel's website states that the company remanufacturing two turboliner trainsets for Amtrak. These are identified as products made by Rohr Industries (San Diego, CA), who also made the first WMATA trainsets.
I thought that the French actually built Amtrak's turbo trains. Are they really a domestic product, or were they built by Rohr (or coproduced) under license from a French company?
The first batch were built by ANF Industrie (not industries, this is another weird french thing). ROHR built the next batch, which was a variant, but based on the French design (probbably the same Turbomecca engine, and the same tranny, etc).
These were the RTL - Rohr TurboLiner trains.
The Turbotrain(tm) was a different train. That was the weird look B-1-1-1-1-1-B built by UTC in the 60's, using a Sirkorsky body (might have been with Pullman), and Pratt PT-6 turboshaft engines. BTW, the PT-6 had a maximum shaft RPM of around 2,200 (the spread seems to be 1,700 to 6,500 for all the variants) and a maximum gas generator rpm of 38,100, per the FAA's type certificate. Some versions were higher or lower on the shaft rpm, but most had gas generator max rpms of 38,100, though it looks like a few were uprated to a bit higher.
The ANF units were RTG something like Rame Turbo Gasse or so (I skipped french )the units had european buffers in between the cars and only ran of turbo , no third railgear almost all are scrapped.
the Rohr units were RTL units. Rohr Turbo Licencie or so. these units were built to American standards and third rail gear these are the units Super steel is rebuilding.
one unit was rebuilt by MK as proto type for rebuilt and is labeled RTLII its currently being towed up and down hudson line by a gennie.
two RTG sets were rebuilt with RTL noses and third rail gear but kept the euro couplers in between cars. both units are stored in Bear Delaware their designation was RTG II
Thank you, gentlemen, for your posts.
Thank you, gentlemen, for your posts.
ANF Industrie, headquartered in the La Defense district of Paris, is a subsidiary of Bombardier. They build carbodies for both freight and passenger railcars. They were the carbody builders of the R-68.
Can anyone explain the precise difference between an Approach signal and a Restricting Signal on a US railroad?
Jersey Mike, where are you?
Approach is pre signal to a red indication Proceed prepared to stop at next signal. train exceeding medium speed must at once reduce to that speed.
medium speed= Not exceeeding 30 mph for passenger equipment and not exceeding 15 mph for all other equipment.
____________________________________________________________________
restricting is usualy used when entering occupied or yard tracks.
indication proceed at restricted speed.
resricted speed = A speed that will permit stopping within one-half the range of vision, short of train, obstruction, or switch improperly lined, looking out for broken rail or crossing protection out of order and not exceeding 15 mph
Thank you. Restricting, therefore, is consistently 15 mph and assumes a problem being present on the current track block, whether that be a broken rail, another train, (would that apply to a signal protecting the next, malfunctioning or inoperative signal?)
an inoperative or malfunctioning signal would give you a red or dark signal both mean stop.
on automatic signal (with numberboard0 after stopping a train can pass the signal at restricted speed.
restricted signal only detects track problems or occupied tracks.
RESTRICTING is actually 20 mph, 5 mph faster than SLOW. Below is an image of an Amtrak cab signal displaying a RESTRICTING aspect. In the common 4 speed CSS RESTRICTING is given by an absence of cab signal code. A STOP, STOP and PROCEED, RESTRICTING, SLOW APPROACH and SLOW CLEAR will all give a RESTRICTING cab signal aspect.
restricted and restricting are two differed terms mike.
Yeah, RESTRICTING is a signal and Restricted is a speed. Sorry if I mis-typed, but in most places Restricted Speed is 20 mph max.
"In the common 4 speed CSS RESTRICTING is given by an absence of cab signal code."
Absence of cab signal code? Does that mean you wouldn't even see the two red lights shown in the cab you photographed?
Thanks for that info.
As I understand it, Cab Signals work with two seperate functions. The first tells the train that it is in a cab signal territory and the second is a series of coded track pulses that display an indication in the cab. The pluses depend on an uninterupted circut between the trains front truck and the section break in advance of it. If there are no pluses the cab signal reverts to a RESTRICTING aspect. If the segment in front of the train is occupied or if there is a broken rail then the train entering the section will not be abe to get a signal.
At this time I do not know how a train knows it is in cab signal land. I think there is a base carrier frequency that tells the system what is up.
If a signal is totally dark the engineer assumes the most restrictive aspect possible by that signal. If a signal is partially dark the engineer assumes the most restrictive indication for the dark head.
"If a signal is totally dark the engineer assumes the most restrictive aspect possible by that signal. If a signal is partially dark the engineer assumes the most restrictive indication for the dark head. "
That's very reasonable.
I was wondering about the signal ahead of the bad signal, though. If you had a malfunctioning signal, is there any provision for detecting such and would that result in the previous signal changing to Restricting?
Such a provision would be largely unnecessary. Each signal essentially tells the engineer what to do by the next signal. When the train hit the malfunctioning signal the worst that could happen is an emergency brake application. I have heard of burnt out bulb detection for signals, but I do not think that it is universally used.
Please keep in mind that RESTRICTING aspects are almost always displayed on Home or non-Automatic or Controlled signals. Automatic signals usually display Stop and Proceed, Stop and Proceed w/ a G plate or Stop and Proceed with an R plate. A G or "Grade" plate tells heavy freight trains to treat the S&P signal like Rule 290 Restricting. An R plate tells all trains to treat the S&P signal like Rule 290 Restricting.
OK.
Medium Speed is 30 MPH for all equipment. SLOW speed is 15 MPH for all equipment. LIMITED speed is 45 for Passenger, 40 for freight. LIMITED is RR rulebook specific speed, MEDIUM, SLOW and RESTRICTED are manded by the FRA. Out west LIMITED speed can be as high as 60.
maybe on Freight Railroads Mike but on MNCW and LIRR Medium is 30 for passenger only 15 for freight.
Freight railroads? Try almost all railroads. NORAC, GCOR, CCOR, etc (which include Amtrak, SEPTA and NJT). MNRR and LIRR seem to be freight phobic.
BTW, I just want to clarify that the FRA regulations re: speeds and signals set forth maxium speeds which railroads are free to reduce.
I think it's safe to assume that FRA MAS works similarly to state highway max speeds - ie the maximum allowed speed is that for ideal conditions - good weather, vehicle (train) working properly and not overloaded; absence of steep grade etc. Change any of those conditions and the automobile driver (or railroad engineer) must recognize and observe the maximum safe speed for his/her operating conditions.
More like, there's crappy interchange with anyone to the LIRR, nobody on LI really wants to get their shipments by rail anyway (since most of it's better suited by truck, there's no real industry on LI anymore and zilch farming now. Few stores are high enough volume to justify the expense/heache of rail freight), and since there's little traffic anymore, it makes zero sense to design around freight and a lot of sense to design around passenger. Supposedly, the LIRR was going to adopt NORAC systemwide, but there's really no reason to anyway.
LI's freight and need for has been declining for decades. There's always talk about intermodal and such, but what's the point to it since you're going to have to do the final delivery by truck anyway?
Unless you can come up with a cost or speed advantage, and enough potential customers to overcome the inital interta, it won't happen. Why the hell take a container off at Newark, stuff it onto a train, move it to albany and back to LI, then take it off and stick it on a truck, when it's faster and cheaper to just stick it on a truck and send it direct?
50 years ago, when Suffolk was farmland, Grumman, Republic, Fairchild, etc were all pooping out aircraft like pez, it made sense.
There is no point to have the rule in the first place. Its simply anti-freight paranoia.
What rule?
Limiting freight to 15 mph for MEDIUM speed.
since you know all there is to know about all railroading mike you probably know that the signal block lenght in the New York Metro politan Area is only 1/3 of normal signal lenght. the normal signal lenght is not resummed till after CP12 and CP112.
Your arguement would only matter if in that zone you had 4 block signaling (which they probably do) and if the freight engineer took the literal definition of the Approach Medium cab signal, which is mighty hard since there are no intermediate signals.
The key to Approach is being able to stop at the next signal. The Medium speed requirement with approach was to eliminate the riding the yellows problem. The Engineer's priroty is to stop at the next signal and is should not matter what the maxium speed he is allowed to go is. Just like you can go 15/20 in Restricted speed dosen't mean you should at all times. Engineers all accross the country manage to parpare themselves to stop at next signal thousands of times each day. The ones operating on MNRR and the LIRR are no different. Furthermore, a short block length requires the limitation of train speed before it reaches the approach signal so that it can have adequate braking distance. If you hit a short block at 50 mph it won't matter if your cab signal speed reads 15 or 30.
BTW, what is the distance of a normal block length? They used to be about 1 mile, but since the 60's most railroads have lengthened them to 1.5 or 2 miles. You can get down to 3500 feet with 4-block signaling.
Mike you can analize it till your blue in the face I operate in this territory on daily base, with the signal block lenghts there would be no way to slow a freight train in there withouty slower freight speeds. LSL does not controll you unless the signal lenght is at least 7/8 of mile.
MNCW has 5 blocks in one mile south of MO and 3 blocks per mile from MO to CP12 and CP112.
I was not even allowed to use the former CR inspection train locomotives into GCT because of the LSL.
was kind of interesting to run 15 cars most of them heavy weights with two FL-9's
My point is that you also need to have different speeds for LIMITED as well else you'll fly right through the approach block. Also, CSX dosen't have trackage rights south of MO.
A uniform 15 mph for approach just because of a few short blocks is nothing but arrogent paranoia. MNRR should let the CSX engineers do their job and trust them operate their trains under control. I mean not even Amtrak is that bad.
MN's job is to safely move the public. The rules are written accordingly. The vast majority of trackage on MN's tracks is passenger, and they move it with an excellent safety record. Apparently, their rules work just fine, in light of them having what is a safety record among US passenger operators that is second only to the LIRR, who's own record is by far the best in the US. Both are signifficantly better than Amtrak, in any case. MN's gone nearly 20 years without a major collision, the LIRR's gone a long time two (I recall a weird one in Huntington in the 80's, but I'm not sure what caused that).
Passenger fatalities from accidents (beyond boarding and walking in front of trains, and other pedestrian types) are virtually nonexistant, despite riderships that on each system approach 100 million passenger / year. This has been the case for years on both systems.
Obviously, in light of that, the rules are doing their job - assuring the safe operation of trains.
Why change them?
Because it is crippling any chance of a descent rail freight revival for New York City. Oak Point yard and the former west side line could both become major rail freight gateways into New York city for such bulk commodities such as steel beams, utility pipes, municipal vehicle delivery etc. 50-60 mph freight service on the Hudson line can help create better, on-time connections at Selkirk with trains going all over the CSX system. MNRR nickle and diming CSX will not allow this to happen.
MN has an obligation to safely move commuters in and out of NYC. That's their number one obligation. They own the track, and they're under zero obligation to bend over to let CSX move freight on CSX's terms. If CSX can't deal with MN's operating rules, then that's sucks for them.
But there's no point in compromising passenger safety to let a foreign road save a few pennies.
Right now, MN has a safety record they can justifyably be proud of, as does the LIRR. Their nitpicking over things has made them the safest rail operations in the US, by far safer than Amtrak.
It's hard to argue changing the rules, in light of that.
Their unfair treatment of freight traffic does nothing to improve their safety. NJT, SEPTA, METRA and the MBTA have equally impressive records and do not treat freight lines so unfairly. Fortunately, MNRR is controled by the MTA and if there is political will to get more freight into NYC the rules and poor treatment will be changed. Its a good thing NS ownes the Southern Tier Line, else they could be in for some retaliation.
on MNRR the Freight speeds is max 45 for freight.
freight speeds are :
Clear cab = 45 mph
Limited cab = 30 mph
medium cab = 30 mph
restricted cab = 15
like I said south of CP12 and South of CP112 the blocks are way to short for LSL 1/3 of mile per block.
north of those interlockings a lot of territory does not have limited, only Clear, Approach, Restricted.
only time you get limited is when diverging
Wait, you told me before that Medium was 15 for freight. Which one is it?
MNRR should just impose a 20 mph PSR for freight between SV (SD? FH?) and MO. The 70 or so mile stretch from Po Town to the SV(?) is pristine hi-speed, lo-grade trackage that could be used for express freight into the city.
BTW do you know all the original NYCRR two letter interlocking codes for the interlockings on the Hudson and Harlem lines?
sorry typo it is 15 mph mike
as far as interlocking letters no just a few.
"50 years ago, when Suffolk was farmland, Grumman, Republic, Fairchild, etc were all pooping out aircraft like pez, it made sense."
Agreed.
"There's always talk about intermodal and such, but what's the point to it since you're going to have to do the final delivery by truck anyway?"
Well, recall that trucks are only allowed on a few roads (LIE for East-West traffic, Oyster Bay Expressway N-S etc.). The LIE is choking on trucks (but that's good for keeping the parkways clear of them). Could a decent rail freight service reduce the congestion on the LIE by cutting the length of the average truck trip?
Could a decent rail freight service reduce the congestion on the LIE by cutting the length of the average truck trip?
I don't know. Part of the trouble is that access to LI for frieght stinks, and part of it is that once you get it onto LI, where the heck do you put the train and what do you do with it? Most bussiness don't have sidings that are readilly available, and most don't move the kind of traffic to justify it. Maybe a large distribution warehouse, but not your local 7-11. The end result is a small market. Intermodal is a waste unless you're talking about a container comming from, far out west, in which case unless it can beat truck speeds all the way to LI, it's not going to be competitive.
There's no need for coal on LI, there's little farming left. Most shipments are going to be time sensitive, and RRs just don't want to be truck competitive in the US. Nobody wants to get the new hot CD three weeks late becuse some big RR out west lost the box cars with their shipment, and ditto for lots of consumer goods.
You make some excellent points here. However, an important exception might be the produce and meat business. A lot of produce arrives in NY by rail (at a terminal in the Bronx); I could see a similar terminal set up in eastern Queens, Nassau or western Suffolk to do the same thing. Part of taking advantage of that might be designatinmg a new authorized truck route.
Perhaps NYA or LIRR could order some DMUs along the lines of the german Cargo Sprinters.
The container cargo would be transloaded from intermodal cars in New Jersey, perhaps something in the meadowlands, serving both the cargo coming in on the Interstate as well as CSX and NS trains coming in to the NY metro area. Right now the LIRR 3rd rail would need to be extended through the tunnel to the transloading yard at the very least, that or else an ALP44 or ALP46 would need to be borrowed from NJT to tow it to 3rd rail territory. Once loaded, the 20-30 cars (I dunno, 89 foot for some cars, 60 some for others) would head through the tunnel, right down the Penn platforms and out the East River tunnels. Once on Long Island, the train could be split up so as to get each trainset and it's containers as close as possible to the customer, service out the branches, like the Oyster Bay, Port Jeff, or Babylon branches could be possible. The main idea is to get some of those trains off the LIE and bridges in the area. The trains would move at night and during midday, so as to avoid rush hours when few or no slots are available in the tunnels. I suppose that at a later point if new tunnels are made under the hudson, service could be extended to those points as well.
Each train would be 5 cars Change it so that the front, middle and rear cars act as DMUs with the same diesel engines that the german model uses, however, the 2nd from the front, and rear cars would have 3rd rail pickup similiar to that used on the M7s, squeezed under the carbody. Each of the 3rd rail equipped car would supply power to the other 3 in the train, just like having a few more traction motors per car. All of this in a permanently coupled train, no jumpers. I suppose that a 7 car, as well as a 3 car model would be in order, if the initial service proved somewhat successful.
Oh well, rip away.
APPROACH is composed of two parts. 1) If exceeding MEDIUM Speed (30 mph) reduce at once to that speed. 2) Approach next signal prepared to stop.
The key here is being prepared to stop at next signal. Many signals are located around curves and in other lo-visibility areas. The engineer must have a good knowledge of the route as if you just cruise along at 30, you will probably not be able to stop short at the STOP signal. APPROACH is displayed one block in rear of STOP, STOP and PROCEED and RESTRICTING signals.
RESTRICTING is also composed of one part. 1) Proceed at RESTRICTED Speed until you pass a more favourable wayside signal, a more favourable cab signals is displayed or the train enters DSC territory.
The key is RESTRICTED speed. Restricted speed is defined as no faster than 20 MPH and so that the train can be stoped short of misaligned switches, obstructions or other trains and the engineer is to look out for broken rails. Repending on the visibility conditions, RESTRICTED Speed can be as slow as 1 or 2 mph. The train is not required to stop short of a broken rail as broken rails are not easily spotted and engineers would be deciplined through no fault of their own.
RESTRICTING is used for permissive operations in automatic block territory where S&P is not needed and for passage through interlockings where the advance block is occupied. It is also displayed for movements against the flow of traffic in Rule 251 territory. RESTRICTING is equivalent to a NYC Subway Call-On signal.
Thank you!
If I recall correctly, wasn't a relatively recent MARC accident caused by a MARC engineer who ignored an Approach Signal, rounded the corner at 60+ mph, and found himself faced with a Stop Signal and a freight train blocking his path at an interlocking?
That was the Silver Spring accident and the MARC train hit an Amtrak train crossing over. He didn't ignore the signal, but forgot about it after making a station stop.
Yet another accident that cab signalling would have prevented, had it been installed, like the FRA should have mandated decades ago.
Cab signaling is expensive and not practical in all situations. The more cost effective remedy was the Delay in Block rule.
It States:
(A)
DEFINITIONS REVISED/ADDED IN CONJUNCTION WITH CHANGES TO ABS RULE 504
Home Signal: A fixed signal governing entrance to an interlocking or controlled point.
Push-Pull Train: A passenger train with a MU or control car on either end.
(B)
ABS RULE 504 REVISED TO INCLUDE NEW DELAYED IN BLOCK RESTRICTION FOR PUSH-PULL TRAINS WITHOUT CAB SIGNALS
504. Delay in a Block
The following restrictions DO NOT apply to trains that have cab signals in service for the direction of movement, or that have experienced a cab signal failure in Rule 562 territory (cab signals without fixed automatic block signals).
a. Trains Making Stops Other Than Station Stops
If a train that has passed a block signal STOPS for any reason OTHER THAN A PASSENGER TRAIN MAKING A STATION STOP, it must proceed at RESTRICTED SPEED. The train may resume the speed authorized by the last signal when:
1. The next signal is seen to display a proceed indication,
AND
2. The track is known to be clear to the next signal.
b. Push-Pull Trains Making Station Stops or Slow Movement After Passing Distant Signal
If a PUSH-PULL TRAIN that has passed a DISTANT SIGNAL makes a STATION STOP or reduces speed to LESS THAN 10 MPH, it must:
1. Approach the HOME SIGNAL prepared to stop,
AND
2. Not exceed 40 MPH, unless governed by a slower speed.
The train may resume the speed authorized by the distant signal when the home signal is seen to display a proceed indication.
If a push-pull train makes a stop other than a station stop in any block, it will be governed by part "a" of this rule.
(C)
NEW RULE ADDED TO REQUIRE THE CALLING OF RESTRICTIVE SIGNALS ON PUSH-PULL TRAINS WITHOUT CAB SIGNALS
94a. Calling Signals on Push-Pull Trains
The following requirements apply to PUSH-PULL TRAINS that DO NOT HAVE CAB SIGNALS in service for the direction of movement, AND are operating in territory where the maximum speed of trains EXCEEDS 30 MPH:
1. The Engineer must communicate to a qualified employee on the train the name of each signal requiring a STOP or RESTRICTED SPEED at the NEXT SIGNAL. In multiple track territory, this communication must include the track number.
2. The qualified employee must REPEAT the signal information to the Engineer. If the qualified employee fails to repeat the required signal information, the Engineer must determine the reason at the next station stop.
3. If the Engineer fails to properly control the speed of the train, the qualified employee must immediately communicate with the Engineer. If necessary, the qualified employee must stop the train.
4. The next signal, when more favorable, must also be communicated by the Engineer.
(D)
NEW SIGNS BEING INSTALLED IN NON-CAB SIGNAL TERRITORY TO REMIND PUSH-PULL TRAINS OF NEW DELAYED IN BLOCK REQUIREMENT
298. Distant Signal Marker
Appearance: Yellow background with black letter"D".
Location: On or near the mast of distant signals in territory where push-pull trains operate, cab signals are not in service, and the maximum speed of trains exceeds 30 mph.
Purpose: Visual reminder to push-pull trains that Rule 504(b) applies in the block governed by this signal.
298a. Delay in Block Sign
Appearance: Yellow background with black lettering "D.I.B."
Location: At or near the end of passenger stations in blocks between distant signals and home signals in territory where push-pull trains operate, cab signals are not in service, and the maximum speed of trains exceeds 30 mph.
Purpose: Visual reminder to push-pull trains that Rule 504(b) applies to station stops made at this station.
******
This rule totally fixes the problem and only requires the cost of (D) signs and DIB signs.
interesting half measure. Does nothing for the scenario where an ATK F40 rearended a standing freight on CSX former NYC a couple years back. While I might agree cab signals would be a great expense on say BNSF in Montanas, IMHO most of the routes in the east with half a dozen or more passenger trains each direction weaving in around dense freight business should be upgraded.
No, it doesn't fix the problem. The problem isn't rules, it's there zero redundancy and zero fail safes for the operation of the train. The engineer still is a huge single point where the system totally breaks down. With cab signalling, you now have two points, one being inherently failsafe, the other being inherently fail prone.
Years of experience in any type of large system has shown time and time again that you simply can not trust human operators to make any kind of life critical decisions with any sort of reliability. The engineer is still a single point where failure is almost certain, and can easily result in large amounts of injury, death, and property dammage. Delay in block does zero to fix that.
Engineers are federally certified professionals who go through years of training to be counted upon to operate their vehicles in strict accordance with the rules at all times. On the off chance that the engineer screws up is where the FRA locomotive and rolling stock stregnth requirements that you dislike so much kick in and protect the safety of those involved all for a cost of BILLIONS less than fancy schamcy signaling gadgets.
There are not Motorpersons or Train Operators or Attendants or Drivers here. These are locomotive ENGINEERS. A profession with a long track record of .exelence and quality.
And a LONG record of screwing up.
Heck, airline pilots are federally certified, go through a hell of a lot more trainning, and are much much much more rigorously regulated, and they screw up too.
It's basic human-machine interaction 101, Mike - humans screw up, and they do it a LOT. it doesn't matter what they're doing or who certified them or how they're regulated. They simply cannot be trusted with any degree of reliability. Certification, trainning, and hstory mean absolutely nothing.
If you look at most major accidents in any field, you'll note that the common theme is mistakes made by humans. Look at a good number of aircraft crashes, Three Mile Island, numerous train wrecks, industrial accidents, the Therac-25 history, etc , etc, etc.. When lives are on the line, you simply don't trust humans if you can avoid it.
Before TMI nuclear plant techs were not certified and computer software designers have never been certified. Furthermore, automatic systems like the ones on Airbuses have probably killed more people than they have saved.
There are only a handful of purely engineer caused mishaps out there every year and nothing usually comes of them because the the rolling stock and locomotives of today are built like bumper cars.
Furthermore, automatic systems like the ones on Airbuses have probably killed more people than they have saved.
God, what a bullshit statement that is.
For one, their computers have a habbit of randomly deciding to land, one instance is on video. Boeing allows the human pilots to have the final say over everything. If the pilot feels that he needs to fly his aircraft upsidedown and backwards in order to save it then by golly he can fly it upsidedown and backwards. If you feel otherwise then go live with the Borg.
Airbus has unoveridable computer limits on the sorts of maneuvers that can be preformed and for many operations the computer has the final say. Its probably because their airframes are of such marginal quality that they want to turn the crashes from "mechanical failure" to "environmental events".
habbits. Are those similar to hobbits?
/*For one, their computers have a habbit of randomly deciding to land, one instance is on video.*/
That's nice, the trouble being, is, it's not entirely true. There were big issue raised surrounding that accident, and it was hardly as cut and dry as the plane just deciding to land all by itself.
/* Boeing allows the human pilots to have the final say over everything. If the pilot feels that he needs to fly his aircraft upsidedown and backwards in order to save it then by golly he can fly it upsidedown and backwards.*/
Go read through decades of FAA accident reports. At least 50% of them pin the final cause of the accident on 'human error'. A quick list:
A United plane in the 60's ran out of fuel on an emergency approach. Poor cockpit managemet and poor crew communications meant the crew had no clu they were about to run out of fuel.
An Eastern L-1011 flew into the ground as the crew became absorbed in a failed landing gear indicator. None heard the ground collision warning indications until it was too late.
A Hawker-Siddley Trident deep stalled on takeoff, killing everyone on board. Retracting the flaps at the wrong time plus the crew ignoring the stick pusher system (and then disableing it) was the direct cause.
A 737 engine suffered an uncontained failure. The flight crew shut the other, working engine off, resulting in a fatal crash.
An Avianca 707 executing a missed approach to JFK runs out of fuel and crashes in Cove Neck. The crew never communicates their emergency fuel situation to the tower.
A KLM 747 plows into a Pan Am 747. The crew of the KLM plane misunderstands control tower communications and takes off before the Pan Am is clear of the runway. 500+ dead.
Two planes collide in midair. The pilot of one decides to ignore the collision avoidance system and disable it. All dead.
A Saudi L-1011 lands with an on board fire. The crew delays evacuation, all die.
Time and time again, humans have been proven to simply be very error prone, especially in emergency situations. Human error has been a big factor in many accidents. It's tthat simple.
Its probably because their airframes are of such marginal quality that they want to turn the crashes from "mechanical failure" to "environmental events".
Do you have any evidence to back that up, or are you simply spewing shit out of your ass yet again?
Try running that statement past a few people in the aviation industry and checkout their reactions, though if you like mainical laughter as a reaction, I'd sugesst you trr a career as a stand up comic.
There was one documented case of an Airbus crash that occurred on final approach, due to a computer software problem. The engines were idling, and then flamed out because the air-fuel mixture in the combustion chamber was, in effect, too lean. The software was revised and the problem did not recur.
Otherwise, you're right on the money with this, Philip.
I can't believe that you'd side with Airbus. Their affiliation with the French immediately places anything they design into the crap category. Beoing is the EMD of the Airline industry. High quality at a high price. Airbus is a dodgey EuroTrash firm that couldn't make a good product if its life depended on it, but its cheap so people buy its stuff. If you remember that A310 that crashed in the Rockaways last year where the pilots "exceeded the design envolope" by using the rudder. You don't see that happening in Boeings. The B-52's are going to be flying until 2040. The Airbuses? Well, maybe you should invest in umbrellas.
If you remember that A310 that crashed in the Rockaways last year where the pilots "exceeded the design envolope" by using the rudder.
That's barely the end result, in fact, I don't even think the final report is done yet. IMHO, what this crash is, is a wakeup call to the entire industry to start getting serious about studying carbon firber before dumping it into planes like crazy. AFAIK, it's the first failure of a carbon fiber component that's caused a crash in comercial airliner history, and frankly, I don't think anyone truely understands yet how carbon fiber fails , why, and what to look for before it oes.
You don't see that happening in Boeings.
Geez, the 737 rudder PCU problems have been a known issue for at least a decade now and Boeing still claims it can't even happen. Comb the NTSB's regular event report listing, you'll find lots of uncommanded rudder deflections on 737s, and at least 2 crashes were probbably caused by it (though Boeing still claims pilot error). Let's not even start on the center fuel tanks (subject of quite a few emergency ADs lately, and suspected in at least one, possibly two crashes.). There's also the 757/767 thurst reversers (cause of at least one crash), the 707's early dutch roll problems (cause of a few more, plus the very steep learning curve on 1st generation jetliners, all of which have safety records that are abominable by today's standards), the DC-10's numerous design flaws, etc etc, etc.
And a LONG record of screwing up.
Heck, airline pilots are federally certified, go through a hell of a lot more trainning, and are much much much more rigorously regulated, and they screw up too.
It's basic human-machine interaction 101, Mike - humans screw up, and they do it a LOT. it doesn't matter what they're doing or who certified them or how they're regulated. They simply cannot be trusted with any degree of reliability. Certification, trainning, and hstory mean absolutely nothing.
If you look at most major accidents in any field, you'll note that the common theme is mistakes made by humans. Look at a good number of aircraft crashes, Three Mile Island, numerous train wrecks, industrial accidents, the Therac-25 history, etc , etc, etc.. When lives are on the line, you simply don't trust humans if you can avoid it.
There is only one solution left: Become one with the Borg.
It will happen. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.
:0)
Well, if we accept that humans are fallible and we want to deal with that definitively, I suppose you could install stopcocks on locomotives and trip arms on the tracks, or mandate the use of cab signalling systems which would automatically put the train BIE whenever an engineer violated a Stop, Restricting or Approach signal (the latter detected by the electronics via measuring the train speed and rate of deceleration against the rule requirement).
How much would that cost?
A lot, and the level of service on most rail lines does not come anywhere close to justifying it.
RIGHT ON. Especially since the evidence is NOT clear that he ever saw the yellow.
RESTRICTING is equivalent to a NYC Subway Call-On signal.
Also, Y/Y/Y, a Yellow dwarf, and Keying-by are all RESTRICTING just like a call-on.
I don't know why the word "RESTRICTING" is completely absent from NYCT signal-speak --its such a basic signalling concept.
The following is quoted from the NJT Signal Card:
Approach:
Rule #285: Proceed prepared to stop at the next signal. Trains exceeding Medium Speed must begin reduction to Medium Speed as soon as the engine passes the approach signal.
Restricting:
Rule #290: Proceed at restricted speed until the entire train has cleared all interlocking and spring switches (if signal is an interlocking or CP sgnal) and the entire train has:
1. Passed a more favorable fixed signal or
2. Entered non-signaled DCS territory.
In CSS territory, thrais with operative cab signals must not increase speed until the train has run one length or 500 feet (whichever distance is greater)past a location where a more favorable cab signal was received.
of course NJT also has the following (8) other 'approach' signals:
Rule 280b Approach Normal
Rule 281b Approach Limited
Rule 282 Approach Medium
Rule 282a Advance Approach
Rule 283a Medium Approach Medium
Rule 284 Approach Slow
Rule 286 Medium Approach
Rule 288 Slow Approach
You forgot about Rule 280b, Approach Normal, Rule 282a Advance Approach and Rule 293c, Approach Restricting, aka "Caution".
The Approach Normal is like the 'C' clear to next interlocking signals you get in waysideless CSS territory only that with an Approach Normal 'N' signal you don't have to approach the next interlocking prepared to stop. I have only ever seen them on the new Amtrak Shore Line in Connecticut.
Approach Restricting aka PRR "Caution" is used when entering non-signaled territory or when in non-signaled territory and approaching some sort of interlocking like an at-grade crossing or movable bridge. The rule goes proceed prepared to stop at hand-operated switches and at the next signal. Trains exceeding Medium Speed must begin reduction to Medium Speed as soon as the engine passes the Approach Restricting signal. NOTE: Does not convey block or track information. NJT installed Caution signals around the CANAL MB in Cape May.
Of course Advance Approach is used for 4-block signaling and tells you to stop at the second signal. Many railroads like the PRR just showed an Approach Medium insead of Advance Approach, but AA has been catching on with Amtrak and several freight railroads.
Also interesting to note is that while most of the approach signals you listed tell you to reduce speed once you pass the signal, Medium Approach states that you must reduce to Medium speed as soon as Medium Approach signals becomes visable.
"You forgot about Rule 280b, Approach Normal, Rule 282a Advance Approach and Rule 293c, Approach Restricting, aka "Caution".
If you re-read my posting, I clearly listed 280b and 282a. I did not list 293c because 293c is not listed on the NJT Signal Card that I have. Of course, mine is dated "July 2001". Perhaps you have something more current.
Damit! I read your post like 3 times to make sure. What the hell is wrong with me!? (don't answer that).
NJT probably dosen't use any "Caution" signals in its main system. NJT is a NORAC member so Approach Restricting is a valid signal rule for them, but probably nothing they would ever see. NJT (NJDoT) does own the CMSL trackage and did install the "Caution" signals at CANAL, so they do know it exists. There used to be two more Caution only signals in advance of the Delanco MB, Y110 and Y131, but they were removed for the SJLR project.
Here are some images:
In these photos the signal is either on or off - amber or dark, correct? If the signal is dark, then does the engineer go by what's showing in his cab, or by the previous signal he/she passed, if not i cab signal territory?
Nice photos, by the way.
You know, subway.org has a primer on subway signals. Why don't you create a primer on railroad signalling and include some of these photos? Dave Pirmann would be glad, I'm sure, to create a section for them.
Well, the signals may be approach lit so that the bulbs don't burn out as quickly. This means the signal lights only when a train is in the block in front of it and is dark the rest of the time.
In Y110's case the bridge was under reconstruction and the signal was no longer functional.
Anyway, ideally the signals would be lit for all passing trains and they only display the one "Caution" aspect.
Here's a primer on NORAC signal rules.
Thank you sir.
"In CSS territory, thrais with operative cab signals must not increase speed until the train has run one length or 500 feet (whichever distance is greater)past a location where a more favorable cab signal was received. "
Reason? To validate the signal receipt?? In fixed wayside signal block territory, is a train not allowed to accelerate until it is well past the green light or the straight up and down position signal?
I appreciate your detailed responses. As you can tell, I'm a neophyte on signals and am learning all sorts of new stuff here.
with any more favorable signal indication the Engineer has to wait one trainlenght to accelerate the train.
with less favorable signal indication the engineer has to react when head end goes by the signal.
Understood regarding the mechanics of the difference. But what is the rationale in the delay in reacting to the favorable signal?
the train be it 2 cars or 100 cars is still in a signal block that was restricted somehow , this could be its still traveling trough switches that were restricted for diverging route or a signal affecting rail condition or a sign governing a work area.
the rule is made so it can not be up to interpretation by an individual engineer
No, it is ONLY a rule for the RESTRICTING cab signal. The reason for this is because imagine a block with a broken rail in the middle. On one side of the broken rail you will get a Restricting cab, on the other side you'll get a Clear (or whatever). If you don't wait one train length you might accelerate over the rail break and derail the train.
Rules like Medium Clear or Slow Clear mandate that the train clears all turnouts, etc. before resuming normal speed within the context of the signal rule.
Otherwise waiting a train length makes no sence. If I'm on approach (my block is clear) and then I see a Clear (next two blocks are clear) there is no reason to wait a trainlength past the Clear signal.
There is an arguement for waiting a train length for any restricted speed signal, not just in cab signal territory, but according to the NORAC rule that TD posted that is not the case.
Thank you for that excellent post. A lot of it is intuitive, but I wasn't thinking clearly.
And there are some rules where you must apply as soon as you first see the signal in the distance.
Only Medium Approach.
the red signal comes to mind :-)
ROHR!
Is that a Sea Beach lion or a Brighton lion or even a West End lion?
If it was under construction it would be a rare dotted lion!
avid
No, a dotted lion is the G, along Queens Boulevard.
G stands for GER, as in LEO says GER. And the L and G intersect at LeORIMER and Metropolitan-GeRAND.
Talking about funny company names, did you know that the song "Mony Mony" by Tommy James & the Shondells got its name from Mutual of New York. It seems James needed a name for the girl and title of the song he was writing, looked out the window and saw a huge sign that said MONY and decided to use that as the name.
It's named after the Rohr family, who made left their mark as an aerospace subcontractor. The San Diego firm had no knowledge of what they were doing in rail vehicle construction and left us products with MetroRail, BART, and Amtrak.
From the people I've talked to at Pratt who've dealt with them, they're not much better at aircraft, either.
As for BART, pin the failure on Westinghouse, who decided to ignore a few decades of experience and reinvent the wheel, not to mention the idiots who decided BART needed to be 5 foot gauge. The BART cars are actually quite nice, but oddly, quite a lot of wheel noise. Putting control in the hands of a computer was a great idea, but poorly implemented. PATCO did a much better job, and the DC Metro did it even better.
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What type of tiles are in the fabeled 212th Station beneath Hillside Ave? Do they match 76th St or 179th St?
avid
I don't even know if a station really exists there. All I know is that there are a bunch of tracks there used for layups, but I don't know if they go all the way out to 212.
With all that I've heard about scattered and extra tunnels and stations built, I'd say the LEAST at 212 St/Hillside is a station shell. Maybe it's connected with the rest of the system at 179 St. But I doubt it.
I know that there is unused subway tunnel beyond 179th St. in Jamaica Queens. I'm not sure whether it goes to 212th St. If it does, the T/A should get on the ball and open that portion of the line.
#3 West End Jeff
The tracks do extend a bit past the end of the 179th station (whose easternmost point is Midland Pkwy, which is really about 180th), but I severely doubt they go anywhere near as far as 212th St. The most reliable reports I've heard concern some layup tracks going as far as 184th or so. Believe me, I live in the 220's. I'd love there to be subway out here, but I don't think it's anywhere near that easy.
For what it's worth, if they were to extend the line, if they did the stations IND style (and I don't expect that they would--this being a long since outdated style, and a not particularly attractive style at that) the local stations east of 179th would be purple tiled up until the next express stop (which might have been planned as Francis Lewis, but I can only speculate), after which the color would be blue.
:-) Andrew
I would guess the next express stop would be Springfield Blvd, and yes, you are right about the blue. Any stations beyond that point would be blue up to the next express stop (Little Neck Pkwy) which would be green. All would probably have had black borders instead of being two-tone.
wayne
I know that there are tracks past the 179th St. station in the Queens IND since I have seen "F" trains pull past the station after everyone has gotten off the train after the last stop has been made. Someone posted a message quite some time ago mentioning that there was tunnel perhaps to about 188th St.
#3 West End Jeff
It is in fact 184th Street.
I doubt it goes that far as well, I think it goes only as far as 184 St. Over and over people here have been saying that a shell for 212 St exists but I will NOT believe it until sufficient evidence is shown.
I think somewhere else in nycsubway.org it is mentioned a possible station at 212 and I think a tunnel in the Alley Pond Park area.
I serious doubt a 212th Station exists. A review of a Queens map would show that 212 / Hillside is at the very end of the Clearview Expressway. Wouldn't that shell have to be reinforced or backfilled to support the weight of the additional traffic overhead ?
179 St to 212 St seems to be a long stretch though. Would 212 be a supposed express stop with about 3-4 local stops in between?
It probably would have been 212 / Francis Lewis Blvd since they are not far enough apart to be two stattions.
Probably. Rosen in an adjoining thread would have one think the next stop after 179 St would be East Williston.
Roosevelt Avenue. IND Second System station, that is :)
--Mark
They would match 76 St w/o a doubt but the color is ummm... wait... what would be the color?! Wait I got the answer THERE IS NO TILE, why because the 2 stations don't exist:o)!
Next, you will be tell us that the Toothfairy and Easter Bunny don't exist either!
avid
Hey, you know what??
Neither does Santa Claus!!!
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
avid
They're probably newer than the ones at 212th.
718th STREET? What year is this...I must have dozed off...LOL
...everbody else got off at 347th or 646th street. :-)
Except for those who are riding on to the terminal at 917th Street.
That's one EXTRA LONG ride ;-).
917th St would seem to be somewhere in the Town of Brookhaven!
Oy!
:-) Andrew
(P.S. There actually ARE a few Queens-numbered streets just inside Nassau County arround Linden Blvd.)
:-) Andrew
"There actually ARE a few Queens-numbered streets just inside Nassau County arround Linden Blvd"
Does anyone know why is that?
917th St would seem to be somewhere in the Town of Brookhaven!
My neck of the woods. I wonder what color the IND tiles at the 1547th Street station are in Montauk.
Sheesh, that's WAY out there. Maybe sky blue perhaps...
The highest street number in Queens (and in all of NYC) is 271st Street in Glen Oaks.
917-271=646
And all this time I thought that they had just tripled 212 and added one to the middle number (646 actually is MHN).
It looks like NYC finally took over the rest of Old Queens County.
Cool! When can I ride the Subway to Roosevelt Field?
Probably after TA finishes their 2nd Avenue Subway.
After 212 St's station shell is found and completed ;-).
I think 718th Street would be in Farmingdale if they ever numbered out that far.
Out west and in the south, like in Miami and Tucson, some suburbs do get to some outrageous numbers, in the 300s and 400s...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Suburbs? West of Phoenix on I-10 there's a 477th Avenue exit, and the only one who could possibly be living on that street right now would be Wile E. Coyote...
Maybe after unsuccessfully trying to catch the Road Runner for 50 years, Wile E decided to settle down.
Well, having gone through there back around New Year's, I can tell you there's no Acme Co. factory anywhere nearby to bother him...
Small wonder. Acme never came up with too many gadgets that worked as they were supposed to.
>>>Acme never came up with too many gadgets that worked as they were supposed to. <<
I think the Jets bought an Acme Super Duper Raider Beater defensive strategy last week at a Safeway.
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>Acme never came up with too many gadgets that worked as they were supposed to.
Well what do you expect? They spread themselves way too thin. If they'd just focused on one or two core products, like rocket-powered roller skates or giant rubber bands, they might have produced better stuff.
: )
Mark
I thought they would be in the red family, since they change to a festive crimson at 666th Street.
Actually maybe in the blue family, since according to my map, 718th Street would be somewhere in the Great South Bay...hee hee hee.:-)
Blue would be perfect but how about the green family, green is a cool color :-).
After attending a record show in Wayne, I headed down to Elizabeth,NJ to check on a few things. The classic CNJ station seems te be restored, even the clock in the tower works ! While the roadbed area looks worse for wear, the surrounding platform and area has new brick flooring as well as planted trees and park benches. The area is surrounded by temporary chain link fencing.
So what's going on, other than a restoration of this station. Wasn't there any plans for Light Rail to use the ROW and station ?
After that I went to Elizabethport. The old CNJ shops are gone as well as the dual island platforms and 6 track ROW. The north-south freight line still remains. The mighty CNJ has diappeared here !
Bill "Newkirk"
there is also now tribue the wtc in front of the plaza
The Newark City Subway is due to come in there sometime as part of an extension to Elizabeth. Can’t tell from the map just exactly how however. Have a look here.
John
Looks like it would be the terminus, with the ROW to the east being used by the light rail.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There’s a pipedream to take the line still westward. Have a look here.
John
You're right, it probably is a pipedream...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
the real pipe dream is if they take the lrv line up the rahway valley though union, springfield, to summit
True that. I wonder why they put that the Light Rail line would run to Plainfield via the RVL. Light rail should just run to Cranford and have connections to the RVL.
By the way, love your handle name.
Jimmy - Formerly known as "brooklyn".
They intend to have two Newark Airport stops? Wouldn't that be confuzzling?
Not really. It'll be good for those who are either airheaded or unfamilier with the area - if they miss the first airport stop, they'll get a second chance.
Wouldn't it be confusing calling both of them the same name?
Airport South and Airport North would succeed in solving the problem.
Can anyone provide some information on it? Where did the lines run to/from, when did it close? Etc.
Thanks
http://www.oldnewark.com/imagepages/images/maps/1904/05.jpg
http://www.oldnewark.com/imagepages/images/maps/1904/04.jpg
I was driving on Union Ave which is New Jersey Rte. 8 or 82. I passed under a trestle and to my left was a new high level platform under construction on an embankment. I turned back and got as close as possible. This ROW is not electrified and runs north-south. Route 439 is nearby as well as Kean University.
Has anyone have an idea what branch this is or any info on this station ?
Bill "Newkirk"
you where on morris ave in union. that is the new union station for the raritan line. there is still some work on local roads before it opens
Union station (not "Union Station" though I can just imagine the puns that await!) on the Raritan Valley Line.
I've noticed the bench seats on the R32s can accomodate 6 people (sometimes 7 if people are small enough or willing to squeeze in) while R40 benches accomodate 5 people (sometimes 6 if people are small enough or willing to squeeze in).
These two trains are the same length, yet one has smaller bench seats in terms of length. Are the side doors on the R40s slightly wider than those on the R32?
Because of the slant nose (sorry, Wayne, but it's true) on the R-40 there are two fewer available seats in every car. The lesser interior seating area, and the flatness of the seats in the R-40s means the benches seat fewer people. Otherwise, the R-40 follows basic R-1/9 dimensions, as do all 60' BMT-IND cars. Hope this helps.
That's OK, the seats in the Slants are awful. I never sit down when in one, I'm always assuming the foamer's position. :o> The R32s are much better. Have they fully completed the black floor program with the 32's yet?
wayne
Nope, there are still some 32's out there with their old floors, particularly on the A and C lines.
Why is that? I love that the seat in the R-40 slants are wide and alomost go to my kneels.
The seats in the R-40s have poor sacral/lumbar support. Those who design houses should live in them, and those who design seats should have to ride to work...every day...in them. Just like the R-62s. I'm not very tall, nor am I obese. Am I the only one who thinks the seats in these cars are too small for my backside?
The angle of the back rest was not designed with the human sketal structure in mind. Buckets were better, but uncomfortible to get a goods days sleep! Rattan semi-sprung seats of the R/1-9s were better as the didn't leave you with a sweaty bottom ala R/10 thru R/17s.
avid
Why is that? I love that the seat in the R-40 slants are wide and alomost go to my kneels.
Thank you someone finally on my side!!!
Everybody blames the slant nose of the R40s for their seat design. I've noticed that the R40m and R42s, which doesn't have a slant end, have the exact same seating design.
Can anybody explain this? Are the cabs in these cars larger than the R40 Slants, or any other 60 foot car model?
The R-42 seats are different. The 40s and 40Ms do have the same seats. I don't see how the seating design would be influenced by the slant end; I'm guessing the difference has to do with a change in seat suppliers from 1968 to 1970 (possibly as a result of customer complaints).
No, the R42 seats are not different than the R40s. Please take a good look.
They are extremely different. The R-42 seats have the same curve as the Redbird/R-32/R-38 seats; the R-40 and R-40M seats are straighter and (to many) much less comfortable.
Please take a good look. Or just take a seat.
Oh yes they are! R40/40M's have the straight seats while the R42's seats are curved like the R38. Ride a R42 on the Eastern division, then ride a R40/40M on the N and you'll see the difference.
No, the slant makes the R40 lose the few seats that the R32 has. And another thing about the seats is that the seats on the R40/40M is so uncomfortable, especially if you're tall. On the R32 however, it is curved and its all nice.
It's not the slant that reduces seating capacity. The R-42 has no slant and it's got the same 44 seats that the R-40 has. The doorways are indeed wider on the R-40 than they are on the R-32 (which has 50 seats).
David
Yes, I noticed that the doors are wider on the R40/40M and R42. So the slanted portion has NOTHING to do with it losing a few seats. I wish the seats were like the 32's though, very uncomfortable on those car classes.
I don't know why everyone is bitchin' the the R40 Slant seats are uncomfortable. True <Q> and (L), and (M) riders hardly notice this. They're so use to riding these trains that it doesn't bother them(like me). If the damn daily (F), (G), (R) riders don't like it then too bad, then stand up if you ride the slant/R40m lines.
I live by the Q/ line and I'm use to the R40 seats already and usually I don't pay attention to that but sometimes it is a pain.
Is it the R40 or R32 or both that have the doors that don't align. ie if the doors on both sides were open with platforms on each side, you can't walk straight through the train. And does this have anything to do with the issue?
Both have staggered doors. And no, staggered vs. parallel has nothing to do with the seating capacity issue.
David
The doors don't align, and you can't walk straight through on any of the class cars between R32 to R42.
I beleive after the R/10s, B-division cars had non-aligned doors until the R/44s. I beleive the A division doors were and still are aligned or thru type doors.
avid
Nope, the R62's were the first cars to be aligned since the Lo-V's, the Hi-V's or both but I am not sure. I know that they had 2 doors on the ends of the cars.
As an infrequent rider of IRT lines, I ASSumed the doors were straight thru on the R/12 and up. Now I must go and check.
Thanks,
avid
Every car before the R-16 was aligned. And the Low-Vs had unaligned end doors.
The R10's doors were not aligned either.
All current 60-foot equipment has staggered doors except the R-143's with cabs (cars 1, 4, 5, and 8 in an 8-car train).
Every car made up to the R42 is not aligned with each other and the purpose was to load & unload passengers faster. In fact I think the R142's train doors don't align also. Well not really but the wide doors make a difference in reducing seats on the R40/40M and R42 compared to the R32.
The aligned doors on the R-44s and up were actually a return to the old design, since the R-26s were the first fleet to have their doors unaligned. In some cases, that ended up producing some unusual layouts, like the single seat in the corner next to the cab on the R-10s. By moving the door away from the front of the car on the T/Os side and away from the back on the C/R side, it meant there would be a standard two-seat bench between the end doors and the front and back walls of the car on each train.
Really??? I thought everything up to the R44 had unaligned doors, well I just learned something new.
I don't know why everyone is bitchin' the the R40 Slant seats are uncomfortable. True and (L), and (M) riders hardly notice this.
R42's make/made up the majority of the M/L/J trains (well until the R143 came along). There is a considerable difference between the R42's seats and the R40's seats. I always knew when I was on a R40M, as opposed to an R42, the minute I sat down, even if I didn't pay attention on the way in.
I'm sure most riders don't know the difference (or care) about the different classes of cars, so they probably wouldn't even think about the fact that the seats may seem a bit more uncomfortable. There is no doubt that they are less comfortable though.
R42s have slightly more contoured seats. The bottom of the seat curves down a little bit and the back part is slightly higher for better back support.
R40/42 doors are wider than R32/38 doors.
We need Geraldo Rivera to do a shoe on what is behind the wall at 76th St. His show on Al Capone's cellar produced no great surprises, the Andrea Dorea's safe contained no valuables, so he already has 2 strikes. During the hour show, they can interview both the man/men who claimed they were there, then TA Brass that states it does not exist, and residents of the area and the owners/renters of the homes directly above the station(?). Then in the last few minutes of the show they break through the wall and a cameraman with lights enters and we see what is there. The TA can make a fortune (part of the ad revenue) the show would produce. See the comercials now. "Geraldo searches for hidden/mystery 70 year old subway station". They could even be a little old lady waiting for the to arrive!!
Meant a show, not a shoe!!!
You were probably reading about Ed Sullivan.
"Meant a show, not a shoe!!!"
Unless you're talking about Ed Sullivan !!
Bill "Newkirk"
How many people besides us NYC subway fans would be interested. Really, think about it. Even when the History Channel did a show on the greatest rail crashes they ignored Malbone Street and the other big crashes in NYC in the early 20th century. Now if it was on Subway Questions & Answers maybe, but...
By the way, since you mentioned the Andrea Doria safe, does anyone out there know why they took it out of the C.I. Aquarium last year?
Maybe Geraldo will luck out and find Judge Crater behind the wall.
It'd be better to put it on the Discovery Channel to prevent Grealdo from getting his third strike ;-). Naa, Channel 5 would be a perfect channel to do something like this! We joked & suggested this a while back around November through a different 76 St thread. To make it more interesting, make it a mini series that way the interest will increase with viewers [of course the Subtalkers would be ready should such a show ever come to life].
Has anyone seen a 2003 LIRR calendar?
Is there even one out?
yes they got them at transit museum store in GCT.
Here's a link to one. I haven't seen it but being as it's published by the LIRR historical society it's probably pretty good.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was lucky enough to get the only one at Grand Central's transit museum store last week.
You can order them from Long Island Sunrise Trail Chapter, NRHS -- PO Box 507 -- Babylon, NY 11702-0507.
Sorry I don't know the price if you're not a member....
They have published excellent LIRR calendars since 1986....I have each and every one of them since 1987. They ran out of 1986's before I placed my order.
The other day on my way to work, R-46 "R" Train at Queens Plaza, city bound with BROWN DIAMOND, white "R" as front-end sign. Never saw this before, and brown "R" not on any map from 1999 to today. What's up with this? BTW Luminator side display was showing "95 St-Bklyn/ Broadway Local", as usual.
Brown R is remnant of the old service to Chambers St., which ran in rush hours only. Alternatively this was run-through and coined the "Metropolitan Ave. R" in 1986-88. I believe this service was discontinued by the early 1990s, perhaps sooner. In any case it obviously never used an R-46. I remember R-27s and R-32s and have a shot of an R-16 curling into Myrtle/Wyckoff bearing a yellow "R" sign.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
The rush hour "R" Nassau Specials were discontinued in May 1987 when all of the "R" trains were rerouted to Forest Hills. Tony
I never knew that service on the 4th Avenue Line warranted having special R trains running to Chambers/Centre Streets during rush hours. I guess that having people change at DeKalb Avenue for an M was too much to ask for.
I know that at that time the M was running on the Brighton Line. Might it be possible to think that the M was rerouted to 4th Avenue from Brighton to replace that R service that was discontinued when the N and R exchanged terminals back in the late '80s?
Not necessarily. The M used to switch at Dekalb from the Brighton line to run via tunnel into Manhattan. When the North side of the Manny-B closed in 1986, the M was moved to 4 Av to supply extra service on the West End line [where else would it go] and R service was adequate at the time. Then you had the capital improvements on the Brighton line around the same time which instituted skip stop service on the D and Q between Church Av and Kings Highway so the M would have been a distraction.
In reality it was supposed to be a "temporary" move to the West End line for the M but you know how it is in the MTA when a line is moved for a 'set period of time' :-\.
The reroute of the M was necessary because the Brighton line was reduced to two tracks for reconstruction. The D and Q run skip-stop and the M was rerouted.
This also made the Nassau R largely unnecessary.
The B functioned fine before 1986 without a second route, while Bay Ridge had the Nassau Service. That should say something about those who want to continue the W to Bay Parkway when 6th Avenue service is restore to the West End line (if it is).
I did say that the M couldn't run via Brighton b/c of the capital improvements on the Brighton line. I see that it made the special R's unnecessary. If the W could continue to Brooklyn after 2004, it would be great since you have a option of 6 Av and Broadway service HOWEVER that would mean the M may have to be moved yet again.
The B functioned fine before 1986 without a second route, while Bay Ridge had the Nassau Service. That should say something about those who want to continue the W to Bay Parkway when 6th Avenue service is restore to the West End line (if it is).
And what would that be? Ridership patterns change over the course of 18 years. What made sense 17 years ago may or may not make sense next year. (And who says that what was done 17 years ago made sense even then? Perhaps one of the reasons the M was moved to the West End was to provide a lacking but warranted service.)
The M on the West end was a "temporary" reroute, so it was intended. Once the M ran on 4th Ave, there was no need for the R specials anymore, so they were discontinued at that point.
See, a lot of us here at Subtalk know how "temporary" moves go in the MTA 8-).
The brown R was Nassau specials that ran to Chambers St via Montague tunnel and the Nassau line until 1987.
See, I learn something new every day. Thanks, guys.
For those who have an interest in the Tokyo subway from my previous postings, go to http://www.tokyometro.go.jp/anzen/sharyo/sharyo.html
The webpage is in Japanese from the official TRTA websight, but can be translated into English with BabelFish. It has current photos of rolling stock, and has historical photos of the Ginza Line (first subway in Asia).
Ok, I went on the trip and like I said I would, I am going to post what went down. For the full story on the shuttle bus portions, see BusTalk.
Man, it was COLD outside. I leave my house at 1:15pm and I start out by taking the Q train at Newkirk Av, R68 2821 and its a fast ride but between 7 Av and Atlantic Av, some guy was selling fake Duracell saying "8 batteries for $1, not 2, not 4 but 8" over and over & in my head I was like shut up. Anyway, we arrive at Dekalb Av load passengers and I decide to time the amount of time it takes to go across the Manny-B. We leave Dekalb at 1:38pm, go across the bridge looking at the nice scenery then we arrive at Canal St at 1:45pm. We get held for a moment then we proceed to 14 St Union Sq, where I would catch the L. Its 1:50pm and I wait for a few minutes until R42 4817 arrives so we're going quick and across the N 7 St tunnel, we went 45mph.
Then we arrive at Myrtle Av at 2:10pm and I get the bus ticket and go outside to catch the shuttle bus and I catch 4360 and I take it to Broadway Junction. Realizing it was so short, I take 4703 back to Myrtle Av. So I run across to catch 5209 but I let it go b/c it was crowded so 9154 comes up and I do the second return toward B'way Junction and I go downstairs to catch the A heading towards the Rockaways. Its around 3:20pm and a R44 comes up but I decide to let it go b/c I wanted to wait for a R32 or 38 and in a strange twist a R38 A was right behind it and I take it but it turns out the railfan window was taken but its ok. We switch after 80 St onto the middle track and we don't go as fast as I thought [we went about 25mph] but it was still acceptable. I saw the MANTIS and other work equipment and I saw the replacing of the rails it looked so cool. I decide to ride it to Far Rockaway so I sit down and watch the wonderful sight of the marshes, the sun getting ready to set and sea gulls, perfect opportunity for taking pics. The this guy decides to smoke in the train, I got so irritated I just wabted to slap him but I kept to myself. So its a smooth ride the rest of the way until we reach Far Rockaway.
Timeline:
Howard Beach 3:41pm
Broad Channel 3:49pm
Far Rockaway 4:02pm
Between JFK & Broad Channel we hit about 40mph & between Broad Channel & the turn towards Beach 67 St we hit about 35mph.
It seemed like A's were having trouble staying on schedule ALL afternoon, you'd see 2 trains right behind each other then none would come for about 10-15 minutes. YES, the Rockaway Park shuttle was running normally and all service ran to Mott Av. So I walk to the now front end which is R38 4147 and I grab the railfan window :-). Then we are going very good hitting 30+ mph between stations. The ride was so good and it seemed like we accelerated very quickly every time we departed from a station. Then after going through the turn after B 67 St we go fast hitting 41mph until we reach Broad Channel then we're off again and once again I see the sea gulls at the marshes. We're going the max basically and we slow down at the bridge then we go steady at 28-30mph until we reach Howard Beach-JFK.
I will post part 2 in a next post.
Ok, I went on the trip and like I said I would, I am going to post what went down. For the full story on the shuttle bus portions, see BusTalk.
Man, it was COLD outside. I leave my house at 1:15pm and I start out by taking the Q train at Newkirk Av, R68 2821 and its a fast ride but between 7 Av and Atlantic Av, some guy was selling fake Duracell saying "8 batteries for $1, not 2, not 4 but 8" over and over & in my head I was like shut up. Anyway, we arrive at Dekalb Av load passengers and I decide to time the amount of time it takes to go across the Manny-B. We leave Dekalb at 1:38pm, go across the bridge looking at the nice scenery then we arrive at Canal St at 1:45pm. We get held for a moment then we proceed to 14 St Union Sq, where I would catch the L. Its 1:50pm and I wait for a few minutes until R42 4817 arrives so we're going quick and across the N 7 St tunnel, we went 45mph.
Then we arrive at Myrtle Av at 2:10pm and I get the bus ticket and go outside to catch the shuttle bus and I catch 4360 and I take it to Broadway Junction. Realizing it was so short, I take 4703 back to Myrtle Av. So I run across to catch 5209 but I let it go b/c it was crowded so 9154 comes up and I do the second return toward B'way Junction and I go downstairs to catch the A heading towards the Rockaways. Its around 3:20pm and a R44 comes up but I decide to let it go b/c I wanted to wait for a R32 or 38 and in a strange twist a R38 A was right behind it and I take it but it turns out the railfan window was taken but its ok. We switch after 80 St onto the middle track and we don't go as fast as I thought [we went about 25mph] but it was still acceptable. I saw the MANTIS and other work equipment and I saw the replacing of the rails it looked so cool. I decide to ride it to Far Rockaway so I sit down and watch the wonderful sight of the marshes, the sun getting ready to set and sea gulls, perfect opportunity for taking pics. The this guy decides to smoke in the train, I got so irritated I just wabted to slap him but I kept to myself. So its a smooth ride the rest of the way until we reach Far Rockaway.
Timeline:
Howard Beach 3:41pm
Broad Channel 3:49pm
Far Rockaway 4:02pm
Between JFK & Broad Channel we hit about 40mph & between Broad Channel & the turn towards Beach 67 St we hit about 35mph.
It seemed like A's were having trouble staying on schedule ALL afternoon, you'd see 2 trains right behind each other then none would come for about 10-15 minutes. YES, the Rockaway Park shuttle was running normally and all service ran to Mott Av. So I walk to the now front end which is R38 4147 and I grab the railfan window :-). Then we are going very good hitting 30+ mph between stations. The ride was so good and it seemed like we accelerated very quickly every time we departed from a station. Then after going through the turn after B 67 St we go fast hitting 41mph until we reach Broad Channel then we're off again and once again I see the sea gulls at the marshes. We're going the max basically and we slow down at the bridge then we go steady at 28-30mph until we reach Howard Beach-JFK.
I will post part 2 in a next post.
I am going to Staten Island tomorrow. And I'm taking shots of the R-44's that are there. Can someone tell me what stations along the line are good for photographing. I like shooting trains on curves, this will be my first time on the line by myself so let me know what is a good spot.
Thanks
anthony
There aren't many curves in the SIRT. One is just south of Clifton. Another is at grade near Princess Bay. Neither is that severe (think: the curve on the "A" between Beach 36-Edgemere and Beach 44-Frank Ave). Take a picture of the approaching n/b from the s/b platform. Grasmere has a crossover where you might be able to get a nice picture.
wayne
Try Bay Terrace between StGeorge and Tompkinsville, from the street. You'll be shooting down (the trains is below street level). You can get some good pictures of the trains coming out of the portal of a short tunnel there.
If you're going on a weekend though, be prepared to wait - trains run only every 1/2 hour.
--Mark
Man, it's really cold out there. I don't even think the high got past freezing today, and it felt way below for most of the day with those high wind gusts. It was so cold that some of the roads were completely frozen (not as in ice, but the concrete).
This cold looks to be around for at least another week and a half to two weeks, and some models are even showing the cold sticking around for a prolonged period. Much of the arctic air on the other side of the pole in Russia is leaking down into Canada, and is being ushered in by a strong polar jet. If you're a snow lover, and this cold sticks around for a while, then you're most likely in for some good surprises. The biggest misconception out there is that El Ninos produce warm and wet winters. Well the 2nd part of that is correct, but the 1st could be farther from the truth. It all depends on the strength of the el nino. Some of the biggest snowstorms of all time (especially in the 70's) were in El Nino years.
Currently, we are in a moderate El Nino (which has backed off somewhat in the last week, but expected to come back). What this does is open up a strong southerly flow allowing storms to barrel onto the Westcoast and then tap into warm gulf waters, and eventually "re-form" off the Atlantic Coastline and move NE.
This coming week looks extremely interesting.. The first half looks pretty dormant, with a few clipper systems reinforcing our cold pattern. Then sometime around Day 5 or 6 (thursday/friday), most models are developing a storm, some even digging it deep into the south. Most models are taking the storm and bombing it off the East Coast (rapid pressure falls), but taking it NE, which would mean we would miss any heavy snow. My feeling is that the 50/50 low around Newfoundland we see sticks around keeping the Polar Vortex in place over southern canada which in turn would cause the storm system to go under it and phase with the southern stream (high moisture). Of course all the while being in a strongly -NAO... anyway, looks interesting...
I know this isn't subway related or all, but I saw that Todd Glickman was a user here, and just wanted to know what he thought about late this week, even if not a forecast, but more of a gut call....
Peace
Time to bring in the brass monkey, eh???
AccuWeather says that we might be in the cold air for one to two weeks. Only time we tell how long this cold wave will last. Though El Nino often produces mild winters in this area when it occurs. This El Nino is weak and may not be strong enough to keep the arctic air from diving into the New York area.
#3 West End Jeff
Tha'ts nothing. I took my bike into the shop to get new shocks and a rear end annual on it. It was 33 when I left, and oh yes, figure a wind chill at 50-60mph on top of that.
Fun, huh?
Oddly, I didn't deep freeze since it was only a few miles. it only took 5 minutes of running my hands under hot water to get any sort of feeling back....
Never use "hot" water to warm your hands if they are frozen. Doctors say to use "warm water" only. I read this somewhere where people had a lot of trouble with their hands being injured with "hot" water.
Chuck Greene
Obligatory transit reference: look for more skells living on the trains, especially the E.
The sever weather Condo, AC in the summer , less heat loss and drafty doors of above ground routes in the coldest months. R trains and C trains are nice too, but not 24/7.
avid
I feel bad for all the folks in the Rockaways. The T/O's and C/R's must be freezing their assets off on the Peninsula. I grew up there during the time of the R-1/9s and R-10s. Remember the poor conductors who had to operate the doors from an OUTSIDE position? On the ocean the wind blows right through you, no matter how many layers you're wearing. This is when you're just standing out there. Now imagine this from the outside of a moving train...BRRRR!!
I feel bad for all the folks in the Rockaways. The T/O's and C/R's must be freezing their assets off on the Peninsula. I grew up there during the time of the R-1/9s and R-10s. Remember the poor conductors who had to operate the doors from an OUTSIDE position? On the ocean the wind blows right through you, no matter how many layers you're wearing. This is when you're just standing out there. Now imagine this from the outside of a moving train...BRRRR!!
I'm glad I'm not RTO!!!!!!!! 'Yo smuck, yu cold, hold this wire.'
CI Peter is OnTheJuice.
I post my weather thoughts to WeatherTalk :-)
For my "winter outlook," Branford members can read the article on the front page of this month's Tripper. For non-members, maybe its editor (who's a SubTalker) will post it here (that's his call).
The Grand Street Shuttle should soon get very Ripe!
avid
Todd,
Have you seen IMO one of the best weather sites out there:
www.wright-weather.com
The models and organization are some of the best I've seen (although I'm sure at WCBS you get even better ones).
What I really like there is the message board. We've got about 5 pro mets who post regurlarly (the most famous DT from www.wxrisk.com), and minus all the 13 year old snow loving kids who always wanna know how much snow in their backyard, it's a great site. I recommend you check it out!
Thanks for the link. Email me privately if you would please.
It's going to get worse? Nope, my friend, you are mistaken. From a climate point of view, this Winter is good news. I was frightened when for the last a couple of years' Winters, temperatures were at unusual highs. At least we had a normal Winter this year. Maybe things are reverting! Or maybe not...
Normal? as in the MONSTER snowstorms of the 1970s? Thirty-inch snowfalls. Plows shoving Berlin Walls of snow in your driveway entrance. Transit service suspensions. NO buses. Ah, but yet again...R-1/9s in the snowbanks. Plow trains. Dyre Ave. Line looking like a country interurban...oh, let it snow.
Remember, I said from a climate point of view! This pertains to Global Warming of course. Sure, 70 degree, sunny days in Winter may be ok, but many people don't realize the long-terms consequences of such an erratic pattern...
That's true. Among these long term consequences are winter dieback, when trees don't shut down normally because it's too warm, then die when it suddenly gets cold. As a result, earth/air moisture cycles are interrupted, with predictable results. Animals in the wild suffer, too, since their diurnal rhythms are affected in part by our weather. Finally, disruptions in our weather affect our water table here in NYC, and as we found out last year, that's pretty serious, too. I stand corrected.
What do you have against snow?
I have to shovel it, work in it, drive in it...
That's when the subway comes in handy.
Well, you could always move to California where it is sunny and warm. Of course, bring a heavy wallet because our state is really sucking wind. The Democrats in charge of this state have screwed it up royally and we are going to have to pay for their stupidity. But you are always welcome because there is always room for one more=====sucker?
Nah. I hate shovelling snow, but I like my subways.
C'mon, Fred ... you guys have Jillian Barberie and all those latex skirts to pay for out yonder. Now tell me she ain't worth it. :)
Selkirk: Who the hell is Jillian Barberie? I never heard of her.
Man ... what are you DOING in California then? Democrats steal your teevee set? :)
Good Morning LA - Jillian Barberie
She's even seen in New York now on channel 5 ... one of the advantages of NOT having cable is the nice pizza pan that lets me watch TeeVee from all over the country, even your KGTV-10, KFMB-8, XETV-6 (Mexican Foxita, heh) and KSND-39 ... I'm avoiding them tonight though, had more than enough of the David Westerfield trial.
OK, I have seen her face before on TV but didn't know her name. She is a silly broad as far as I'm concerned and she knows zilch about sports, and what's more she does nothing for me at all. She is not my type. However, if you want to pant for her go right ahead.
Nah, I've got better taste than that ... but she does very good numbers in California, so she must be doing something right. SO. What about (drum roll) "Anna Nicole?" Another "only in Cali" number. :)
Dave,
Next storm, try to get out to the Rockaway Tundra Branch!
Maybe , if this current cold snap last long enough, parts of Jamaica Bay ice over.
Good work, thanks for shareing.
avid
Look more closely -- I went to Far Rock and back. I wasn't going to try to take pictures through the snow-covered R-38 railfan window.
Has anyone on the Rockaway Dash reported any ICE FLOWS in Jamaica Bay.
Yesterday, me and my trusty dawg, Val, checked out the Great South Bay. Its showig Ice. There are still channels of open water. It, the bay, is freezing over.
avid
I stand correct.
The bay was still not yet showing ice flows, though.
I am shivering as I view them again.
TNX
avid
>>>>>The biggest misconception out there is that El Ninos produce warm and wet winters.<<<
NO! EL NINO is a climate phenomenon that disrupt Global Weather Pattern.
Please see this link http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories/s1080.htm and http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/enso_advisory/ for more detail
It looks like this arctic outbreak is going to last a while according to the National Weather Service. We might get a bit of a respite over the weekend, but then it will be back to cold weather next week. Many nights are expected to drop down into the teens in Central Park with many of the coldr suburbs dropping down into the single digits over the next week or two.
#3 West End Jeff
That's why we call it winter.
Peace,
ANDEE
Below zero up here, come on up! :)
I heard Lake Placid was -19, no thanks.
Peace,
ANDEE
C'mon ... ain't so bad if you learn from the kitties ... MMMMMMmmmmmmmm ... body heat! (and you thought they purred because they LIKE you.) Heh.
I don't think our little abode got below 5 degrees outside ... Saturday though is gonna break rails over on CSX ... Friday night/Saturday morning promises -12 to -18. So next time you find yourself on Kingsbridge Road, headed towards Broadway, 9 degrees ain't so bad. Heh. Coldest place I ever lived was on the top of the hill at Sedgewick and Kingsbridge. With broken windows in the 5th floor walkup. Moo. (2759 Sedgewick if you must know) ...
YOU KNOW YOU'RE FROM UPSTATE NEW YORK WHEN...
You only own three spices - salt, pepper and ketchup
You design your Halloween costumes to fit over a snowsuit
When the mosquitoes have landing lights
When you have more miles on your snowblower than your car
You have 10 favorite recipes for venison
TrueValue Hardware on any Saturday is busier than the toy stores at Christmas
You live in a house that has no front steps, yet the door is one yard above the ground
You've taken your kids trick-or-treating in a blizzard
Driving is better in the winter because the potholes get filled with snow
You think everyone from the city has an accent
You think sexy lingerie is tube socks and a flannel nightie with only 8 buttons
You owe more money on your snowmobile than your car
The local paper covers national and international headlines on l/4 page, but requires 6 pages for sports
At least twice a year, the kitchen doubles as a meat processing plant
The most effective mosquito repellent is a shotgun
Your snowblower gets stuck on the roof
You think the start of deer hunting season is a national holiday
You head south to go to your cottage
You frequently clean grease off your barbecue so the bears won't prowl on your deck
You know which leaves make good toilet paper
The mayor greets you on the street by your first name
There is only one shopping plaza in town
The major parish fundraiser isn't bingo - its sausage making
You find -20F a little chilly
The trunk of your car doubles as a deep freezer
You attended a formal event in your best clothes, your finest jewelry and your snowmobile boots
You can play road hockey on skates
Shoveling the driveway constitutes a great upper body workout
You know the 4 seasons: Winter, Still Winter, Almost Winter, and Construction.
The municipality buys a Zamboni before a bus
You actually 'get' these jokes, and forward them to all your Northern friends
A $400 electric bill is a bargain.
I was looking at the NWS website and yesterday it is -8 degrees in Glans Falls and -13 in Saranac Lake. I wonder what temperature you had yesterday? If it drops to -12 to -18 in Voorheesville, please let me know.
#3 West End Jeff
We got down to +2 last night, it's +9 now and expectations for the Albany airport (which owing to turbulence from flights tends to be inaccurate) are 0 to -10 tonight, therefore we can expect -11 to -15 here up in the hills. Had a high of 12 today though. Woohoo! :)
Hey,
You should come over to balmy Buffalo. It's about 15 as a high, 5 degrees as a low with the wind chill probably around -20. Bring your short sleeves, sunscreen (if you need it), swimming gear (for Lake Erie) and shades and retreat to beautiful warm Buffalo. You'll love it.
Heh. The temperatures are the same here, but bonus points for Buffalo - you guys have TRANSIT, and better yet, no Senator Joe. :)
Yeah,
But I'm a New Yorker and by Noo Yawk standards, the "B'lo" has one of the worst transit systems in the country. The subway "system" only travels up and down a single street. Many city buses are known to show up about twice an hour. Try standing 30 minutes in the cold daily. Over here, you're better off with a car. As for politics, the political scene here is very shady.
Yeah, but at least "BLO" *has* a transit system. Here in Smallbany, we have "SeedyTA" (CDTA) which can't even do a bus route. Chock full of Bruno appointees, there's no money left to hire drivers. They just cancelled RUSH HOUR buses about a week ago.
So for what it's worth, Buffalo actually DOES have a superior system to what passes for transit in other upstate municipalities. :(
Yeah I gotta admit you're right. From what you're saying, "Smallbany's" transit sounds terrible.
We almost had a light rail system built here last year until Joe Bruno and John Sweeney (both in the SAME elephant party) got into a hissy fit about having the train run where there weren't any TRACKS ... SeedyTA has a wonderous record of shady dealings and failure to provide. Handy place to ditch deposed politicians though - 88% of its budget is executive salaries and paying off Bruno's debts. No WONDER there's no buses. :(
Say what you will about Beefalo though, you CAN get from here to there sometimes. :)
I LOVE this weather! I hope it stays like this all year!
Doesn't bother me much either ... it's the hot humid of summer that makes ME cranky. :)
You both are a bunch of polar bears...Say, why haven't there been any protest or public outcry about the lack of RUSH HOUR public transit in Albany? If they did something like that in NYC, there would be a riot.
REMEMBER, a lot of people upstate have cars so a mass transit system won't be as 'important' as NYC, they could NEVER pull some shit like that "without justification" here in New York City. Sheesh, I don't know how people in Albany allow that stuff to happen and wait in the cold for buses that don't come in the RUSH HOUR!
Protesters up here go to jail for one, other factor is everybody's afraid to rock the boat. So whatever the politicos feel like doing, they CAN. Baaaaaa-aaa-aaa ... :(
Open up all the train doors in 239th Yard. I've gone from wearing long sleeve work shirts to protect me from dirt back to short sleeves.
The heating system is running full blast and the R-142s think it's summer....cars are frigid inside spewing out tonnes of BTUs topside.
Given a inspection assignment, I'm happy with a head-out car knowing adjacent tracks will have open doors when TTs are moved. CI Peter
Albany and surrounding towns are chock full of state workers, communities TIGHTLY controlled by politicos. There's a FEAR factor as a result, pyth off a politico and you and your relatives can find themselves out of a job. Politicos are INCREDIBLY vengeful little phucks. That, by the way, is one of the reasons I wail on politicos myself, they've already done pretty much anything they could to me personally, so the fear factor for me is gone.
Not so though for most of the compliant sheep around here. Service was cut back, and they just sit and mope - that's about as deep as it gets here. And they'll pull the same lever again. They always do. :(
Needless to say, the voters get what they elect.
Just to let ya know, we BLEW Buffalo away last night - 19 below here where I am in Voorheesville, 14 below for Schenectady, 11 below for downtown Smallbany, 22 below at Glens Falls ... woof! ABOUT TIME we got cold up here, first time this winter it's been "normal" for temper-cheer. The number of trains through here has been impressively ... "not" ... only one or two overnight and you could tell by the sputtering of the locos that they weren't equipped with dipstick heaters. :)
City musta been chitting a pickle. Wonder what Central Park dropped to? And are the trains running down yonder?
I thoought we had it cold here, and it only got down to three above!
That's impressive. They must be absolutely flipping OUT in Atlanta ... 15 degrees! Hahahahahaha ... yeah, was wondering if "globule warming" WAS for real ... and yes, it is ... but so far this winter, we only edged below zero twice, and just by a couple of degrees. Whew! It ain't upstate unless there's a real freeze. FINALLY!
Trains up here ARE rolling, but it's sad listening to the EMD's really having a hard time keeping the oil flowing to the generators. Tonight, they sounded like buses on their last leg. And *SLOW* owing to "if you bang the rail, it's gonna split." Short consists, too. I guess many of the cars are welded to the rail until it gets up to 10 later today. :)
Impressive, though. 'bout time ...
Once upon a time, there was a non-conforming sparrow who decided not to fly south for the winter.
However, soon the weather turned so cold that he reluctantly started to fly south.
In a short time ice began to form on his wings and he fell to the earth in a barnyard, almost frozen.
A cow passed by and qwapped on the little sparrow. The sparrow thought it was the end. But, the manure warmed him and defrosted his wings warm and happy, able to breathe, he started to sing.
Just then a large cat came by and hearing the chirping, investigated the sounds. The cat cleared away the manure, found the chirping bird and promptly ate him.
The moral of the story:
1. Everyone who chits on you is not necessarily your enemy.
2. Everyone who gets you out of chit is not necessarily your friend.
3. And, if you're warm and happy in a pile of chit, keep your mouth shut.
When I told you three, I hadn't checked the digital memory.
Sometime after midnight last night it apparently did get down to zero. I think that is the coldest it has been in this part of Pennsylvania in a number of years.
We are now having a heat wave and the temp has climbed to 7. WOW!
Subtract 14 from that and here we are up here. +10 at JFK. Woof! That's serious for NYC ... wouldn't want to be out in the CIY yard TODAY. :(
OR in Far Rockaway. Worse yet, Rock Park Yard just 400' from the OCEAN. At least the ice is SALINE down there and won't frreeze the cars to the rails as fast. :-)
Flipping out in Atlanta, haa in some sections in Florida it was in the THIRTIES, go figure we're in a cold spell. Ahh nothing like a real winter once again [don't really like it but I missed it in a way]. Down here in NYC, it went down to the single digits and the HIGH tepmerature is only to get worse not even reaching 25! Like today it went no higher than 20 degrees and snow is in the forecast a few days from now. So WE'RE IN A DEEP FREEZE! :-x
We've been in ours so long, the locomotive jockeys shipped up here from Jacksonville are finally starting to get their slipslide action together. Of course, armed guards are required to get them OUT of the locos when they go dead on hours and open the nose door and say "nah-ah" ... :)
I'm upstate for the weekend. Dropped to -2 early this morning, though by the time I ventured outside it had risen to -1 or maybe even 0.
I walked four miles in the afternoon, but by then it was 16.
Now it's 10. (These are actual temperatures, BTW. Wind chill is -1, but that's cheating.)
-2? Couldn't have been very far upstate. :)
Heeheehee, I know, as you mentioned it was -22 in some places and it WAS NOT a wind chill. We know one thing, none of us are missing out on the cold weather, most of the US is 'trapped' in this cold spell.
A spot in Rensselaer county did minus twenty-seven ... spelling it out because the digits don't do it justice. Just 53 more degrees and Bruno would be digging the second avenue subway with his bare hands. :)
Come on temperature, go down deeper so Bruno does some manual labor ;-). Seriously, we are going to be STUCK with this cold front for quite a while. -27 in Rensselaer, damnit it must feel like Alaska out there.
Alaska's usually warmer than New York ... at least along the coast. Lived there many many years ago. We normally did a couple of minus twenties around here, all part of upstate living. But while folks are melting in the city in July and August, we're up here in 80 degree weather with a breeze sipping Pińa Colonics. All balances out. And unlike the city, we believe in insulation up here. With a couple of feet of snow on the roof, it stays NICE and cozy as long as you stay inside. :)
Imagine the Midwest they see negatve 30+ degrees and snow, forget about it. When we see 5 inches of snow in NYC, we go crazy but if the Midwest and upstate get 2+ feet of snow, its the 'norm' and I'm sure we get laughed at since they're so used to it.
Oh yes, the chuckle machine does get fired up. Not so much about the quantity as the reaction to it. When I told some of my railroad buddies about "snow birds" they were busting a gut. "What? Those MTA guys never heard of alcohol?" But you guys get the last laugh. The loco jockeys they sent up from Florida couldn't get much to move last night. The Ex-Gonerail guys were chuckling about that too - if the red stuff is STILL in the thermometer bulb, then the railroad should still move.
Hell, folks in Buffalo are chuckling about us ALBANY folk whining about a piddly 74 inches of snow. That's one NIGHT'S worth of snow out there. :)
Ithaca.
Ah ... out in the desert. Temperature-wise. Amusing place - the colleges largely run the transit system there. :)
Down in NYC, its 19 degrees and falling right now and in the coming days, it WON'T even reach 20 degrees as a high. On Tuesday the low for NYC is expected to be 8 degrees, probably less IMO. To top off the cold weather, we're supposed to get some snow tomorrow and Monday.
You're expecting a low of 8 tomorrow? Here in Ithaca that's the predicted high.
And this is far from the coldest weather I've experienced up here. I went shopping at Wegmans one evening in 1994 when it reached -21.
That is cold. My cousin used to go to school in Vermont, and a few times when I visited her in the winter, it was that cold and colder. I remember it being 1 degrees, with some ridiculous wind chill and thinking, "This is nuts!"
It's been a while since it's been that cold in the city. I remember about 15 years ago (1985 or 1986) it was about -1 or something in New York. I don't believe it's been that cold here since.
Like I said, it's like a tropical retreat here in Buffalo. We ONLY got down to about 0 last night. Buffalo couldn't hang with Albany this weekend.
I checked Accuweather, look for it to stay cold till just after the super bowl. Then it will break.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kansas City has three to six inches coming tonight; lows in the single digits through the weekend with highs in the 20s.
Someone just mentioned to me (3:30) on the phone that it is snowing in Brooklyn right now; is that true? It's sunny out here in Suffolk.
It snowed here in the Bronx for about 20 mins. about an hour ago.
Well It's just little flurries, not anymore, I just came in from the corner store.
I'll be thinking of you guys when I tee off today at noon. Nice and sunny out here, temps in the 70's.
Don t breath the air too much, according to KNBC channel 4 this AM, expect Smog Alerts in the SG Valley
No smog me boy, clear as a cucumber. The only problem is I stunk up the golf course. Shot a 49 and was lucky to get that. ( nine holes)
SNOW? You guys don't know JACK about snow.... untill you take a trip up the Thruway to the North country.....We're still buried in it after TWO WEEKS!!! With mountains of the rockhard crap parked right in front of my door. I never thought I could hate snow as much as I do right now.......Hey Fred...ummmm...You think you could put me up for .....3 months or so ? at least untill the weather breaks,man..c'mon..have a heart.....
Aw, suck it up and sing "Oh Canada." :)
We had flurries for a few minutes in Manhattan.
Upstate, we've gotten anywhere from a half inch to several inches EVERY day since Christmas. If anyone is feeling a bit short on snow, send up a truck, we're happy to give until it hurts. :)
El NINO Simply referred as "Bad Child" in Spanish Defition. EL NINO is capable producing serious weather conditions that can cause destrution like major flood, serious drought, fuel up thunderstorm, and intensify hurricanes to major one and produce dangerous tornado outbreak
Hurricane Mitch in 1998 causing major death and destruction in Central America
The Super Storm of 1993 that dumped record breaking snow fall in the Northeast and produce 10-20 record breaking tornado that touch down in Florida.
The 10 1997 Tornadoes that destroy the town Kissimmee, Florida and barely missed the theme park in one night.
The Xenia, Ohio F5 Tornadoes wiped out the whole town and cause high numbers of deaths in US History
The Seriou forest fires in the plain states and south.
All these has attributed by the EL NINO.
At this point, the EL NINO has reached its mature stage according to the National Weather Service. Which mean the Great Mother Nature has number of surprises in stored for the society. The only weather phenomenon that we know so far from this MATURE EL NINO is that Folks down south will be EXPECTING AN ABOVE AVERAGE HURRICANE for the 2003 season. AND MORE FLOODS IN THE SOUTHWESTERN STATES in the future. Right Now, I begin Smelling Troubles in US Weather in paradise.
AT one time this past summer the NWS has once issued a Tornado watch for the 5 boroughs sometime btw July and August
We maybe lucky that there is NO TORNADOES Spawned in NYC Metro Area in this past summer. I'm not sure if this summer will
El Nińo does not mean "bad child" it only means "THE child."
Bad child would be el nińo malo.
Wouldn't that be "El castor malo v. El Grapadura?" Wrong show. :)
Thanks for the Spanish Tutor.
I visit SubTalk because of my interest in transportation, not weather.
That being said, here's the actual definition, from the Glossary of Meteorology, Second Edition, published by the American Meteorological Society (Todd Glickman, Managing Editor):
El Nińo?A significant increase in sea surface temperature over the eastern and central equatorial Pacific that occurs at irregular intervals, generally ranging between two and seven years. El Nińo conditions, which are often characterized by ?warm events,? most often develop during the early months of the year and decay during the following year. The term was originally applied by fishermen of northern Peru to a warm annual southward coastal current that develops shortly after the Christmas season; hence the Spanish name referring to ?the Christ Child.? The name subsequently became more commonly used in reference to the occasional very strong coastal warmings that are associated with torrential rains in the desert coastal regions of southern Ecuador? northern Peru. The current definition of El Nińo developed following the discovery that the coastal warmings are simply part of a larger-scale phenomenon arising from coupled ocean?atmosphere interactions across a broad expanse of the equatorial Pacific.
Hey guys, later for the weather report. Oh, by the way, I woke up this morning at my buddy's house in Carlsbad, about l00 miles southeast of where I live. Just as where I live the sun was shining brightly and weather was about 73 degrees with a nice breeze coming off the ocean only three miles away. Went for a short walk and will take a long walk this afternoon on the beach. Over and out.
Damnit, your lucky Fred, at least you don't have to worry about extreme cold in California. Right now its ONLY 17 degrees and is expected to go no higher than 22 and its supposed to get colder in the coming days; so here in NYC we freezing our asses off :-(.
Just wait, April is coming down the pike. I remember from mid-April to the end of June there is usually very good weather in New York. Your city still has a lot to recommend it. We have the climate, you have the greatest city in the world. Make sure a bunch of assholes don't spoil it again as they did in the 70's and 80's.
Do the MBTA Blue line 0500/0600s, Red line 01500/01600/01700/01800s & the Orange line 01200s have narrow cabs w/ railfan window or do they have a full cab?
Full-width cabs....and the crews always seem to have the curtains down too. (Might be an MBTA regulation.)
If you're lucky, there won't be an ad card across the window in an 01800 and you'll be able to see through the cab and out the front.
The Blue Line cars are the same way. BTW, 0600s only, 0500s are long gone.
Red Line 01500/01600/01700, Orange Line 01200s--fuhgeddaboutit!
Many operators are very paranoid about their "privacy" in-cab. In such a public operation this has always seemed patently absurd.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
At least our Green Line LRVs have StormFan Windows :-)
For those MTA employees following this board, seen today (Saturday 1/11) on the #1 line, car 2215 with graffiti (not scratchitti, I'm talking white paint here) on all the car's picture windows.
--Mark
They have to pull that one from service ASAP lest it give the wrong people ideas. I take it that this was exterior graffitti. This is something we do NOT want to see making a comeback. Leave it to the experts (i.e. The Phun Phactory).
wayne
Since it was the windows only, I am guessing it was interior, but I couldn't tell from the opposite platform.
--Mark
Saw an R-32 train on the E Thursday evening with white paint scrawled on the inside windows of four cars.
The memories came rushing back...
I get the impression there remain some VERY rough times ahead these next few years.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Ok here's the second part.
So we are held at Howard Beach for 5 minutes then we finally proceed. After arriving at Aqueduct Racetrack; on a R38 heading the other way, I noticed someone with a gray or silver camera on 4134 at the railfan window, maybe a fellow Subtalker perhaps? I wonder if more Subtalkers went on this ride. Anyway, I'm still on the train then I decide I'm going to ride the Lefferts Blvd shuttle bus so I take the train to 80 St, and wait for the bus. I arrive at 80 St at 5:05pm Then 4555 comes up and I ride it to Lefferts Blvd, get off and I wait for 574 to come and I make the return trip to 80 St.
Timeline:
Leave Far Rockaway 4:14pm
Broad Channel 4:25pm
Howard Beach 4:33pm
Between the straightaway after B 67 St and Broad Channel we went 41mph & between Broad Channel and JFK we went 44mph at the highest.
Arrived at 80 St 5:05pm
Finished round trip of shuttle bus 5:30pm
So I arrive back at 80 St after the round trip on the shuttle bus and I pay $1.50 [I forgot they don't give transfer tickets when one side is a terminal]. So its very windy on the platform and a R44 shows up BUT it passed us no horn blowing NOTHING just passed by. We end up waiting 13 minutes until the next train R38 4134 arrives and the train was pretty crowded. Its a very fast trip back to Broadway Junction and I get a ticket to ride the L shuttle back to Myrtle Av. We wait about 15 minutes before a bus even came. So 9319 shows up and I take it on the return to Myrtle Av to catch the L.
So its about 6:25pm and I let a R143 go[I know you guys are shocked] b/c I wanted a R42. So the next train that came up is a R42 at Myrtle then I board. But then the doors close, people still inside we went so I figured we were going back toward Manhattan. NOW HERE'S THE 'FUNNY' PART! We end up going THROUGH the switching process then I was like oh shit we went through switching and I didn't remembe that the switches were AFTER the station. Nonetheless, I was happy and then I played it off acting like nothing happened LOL :0)! Then we wait a few minutes, go in the first car and then we're off! We leave Myrtle at 6:35pm and its a very quick ride but I was really looking forward to seeing how fast we went through the tunnel.
So we arrive at Bedford Av at 6:49pm and there's a good crowd on the L so through the North 7 St tunnel we went 48mph I was like wow. I want to get a R32 N or R and scope the 60 St tunnel another time to see the speed. Ok back to the story, we go going through the stations smoothly until we reach Union Sq at 6:54pm. Then I wait for the Q to come but that takes about 10 minutes to come. BTW, there was a GO that had all Brooklyn bound R's and W's running over the Manhattan Bridge after Canal Stdue to trackwork [trains switched after Prince St and there were NO posts clarifying the GO]. So I hop on R68 2817, there's a fairly decent crowd. We leace Canal St at 7:08pm and I time the span across the bridge again and it takes 7m and 30s, arriving at Dekalb at 7:15pm. Then it takes about 15 minutes to get to my stop then I go home.
I was a long story but it was rather interesting, hope you guys enjoyed reading it.
R68 2821 (Q)
R42 4817 (L)
RTS 4360 L Shuttle
RTS 4703 L Shuttle
RTS 9154 L Shuttle
R38 3951 (A)
R38 4147 (A)[return]
RTS 4555 A Shuttle
Orion 574 A Shuttle
R38 4134 (A)
RTS 9319 L Shuttle
R42 4644 (L)
R68 2817 (Q)
Ok here's the second part.
So we are held at Howard Beach for 5 minutes then we finally proceed. After arriving at Aqueduct Racetrack; on a R38 heading the other way, I noticed someone with a gray or silver camera on 4134 at the railfan window, maybe a fellow Subtalker perhaps? I wonder if more Subtalkers went on this ride. Anyway, I'm still on the train then I decide I'm going to ride the Lefferts Blvd shuttle bus so I take the train to 80 St, and wait for the bus. I arrive at 80 St at 5:05pm Then 4555 comes up and I ride it to Lefferts Blvd, get off and I wait for 574 to come and I make the return trip to 80 St.
Timeline:
Leave Far Rockaway 4:14pm
Broad Channel 4:25pm
Howard Beach 4:33pm
Between the straightaway after B 67 St and Broad Channel we went 41mph & between Broad Channel and JFK we went 44mph at the highest.
Arrived at 80 St 5:05pm
Finished round trip of shuttle bus 5:30pm
So I arrive back at 80 St after the round trip on the shuttle bus and I pay $1.50 [I forgot they don't give transfer tickets when one side is a terminal]. So its very windy on the platform and a R44 shows up BUT it passed us no horn blowing NOTHING just passed by. We end up waiting 13 minutes until the next train R38 4134 arrives and the train was pretty crowded. Its a very fast trip back to Broadway Junction and I get a ticket to ride the L shuttle back to Myrtle Av. We wait about 15 minutes before a bus even came. So 9319 shows up and I take it on the return to Myrtle Av to catch the L.
So its about 6:25pm and I let a R143 go[I know you guys are shocked] b/c I wanted a R42. So the next train that came up is a R42 at Myrtle then I board. But then the doors close, people still inside we went so I figured we were going back toward Manhattan. NOW HERE'S THE 'FUNNY' PART! We end up going THROUGH the switching process then I was like oh shit we went through switching and I didn't remembe that the switches were AFTER the station. Nonetheless, I was happy and then I played it off acting like nothing happened LOL :0)! Then we wait a few minutes, go in the first car and then we're off! We leave Myrtle at 6:35pm and its a very quick ride but I was really looking forward to seeing how fast we went through the tunnel.
So we arrive at Bedford Av at 6:49pm and there's a good crowd on the L so through the North 7 St tunnel we went 48mph I was like wow. I want to get a R32 N or R and scope the 60 St tunnel another time to see the speed. Ok back to the story, we go going through the stations smoothly until we reach Union Sq at 6:54pm. Then I wait for the Q to come but that takes about 10 minutes to come. BTW, there was a GO that had all Brooklyn bound R's and W's running over the Manhattan Bridge after Canal Stdue to trackwork [trains switched after Prince St and there were NO posts clarifying the GO]. So I hop on R68 2817, there's a fairly decent crowd. We leace Canal St at 7:08pm and I time the span across the bridge again and it takes 7m and 30s, arriving at Dekalb at 7:15pm. Then it takes about 15 minutes to get to my stop then I go home.
I was a long story but it was rather interesting, hope you guys enjoyed reading it.
R68 2821 (Q)
R42 4817 (L)
RTS 4360 L Shuttle
RTS 4703 L Shuttle
RTS 9154 L Shuttle
R38 3951 (A)
R38 4147 (A)[return]
RTS 4555 A Shuttle
Orion 574 A Shuttle
R38 4134 (A)
RTS 9319 L Shuttle
R42 4644 (L)
R68 2817 (Q)
PS: On R38 4121, I noticed that the side rollsigns said North Terminal, Grand St and C train 8 Av/Fulton. What is North Terminal?
I'm not sure how much people saw it so I'll post the story again. All opinions welcome.
I was just wondering. With hundreds of old Redbirds getting the old heave-ho into the Atlantic Ocean and new R142's plying the rails with their easy to service, ultra reliable parts, I was wondering how much of a cost savings the MTA has noticed, if any, in terms of car maintainence, repairs and failed unit expendatures? Does anybody have any numbers regarding this?
We all know that one can't mix railroads and light rail, but what about heavy rail subway systems and light rail? Almost all of the places I can think of keep their subways and light rail seperate (Philly Subway-Surface lines, MBTA Matapan Line, Toronto Scarboro line, etc), but in the age of the bigger, beefier light rail vehicle (think HLBR or SJLR or the Airtrain) might it make sence to combine light rail lines into Subway routes? Light rail lines could be built cheaply in old unused "suburban" RoW's or streets and then connect to an existing heavy rail line where the LRV's can run into the city center or stop at an intermediate terminal for an accross the platform transfer. Furthermore, ecisting subway storage yards and maintainence facilities can be used to service the LRV's.
The old LIRR Rockaway Branch RoW might be a canidate for light rail that hooks right into the A. Or a light rail line that runs from the end of the N in Astoria to LaGuardia.
Any ideas? Reasons why it woudln't work? It could be a cost effective way to extend transit routes.
Light Rail/Subway, or joint trackage rights operation WAS done here in the Rockaways in the early 20th century. OK, it was LIRR/BRT/Ocean Electric, but the concept is similar. LIRR trains shared trackage rights with BRT rapid transit trains and OE trolleys on the Rock Peninsula.
One of the problems they discovered with this type of operation is that the different car types created conflicts with one another. Because it was an "ABSOLUTE BLOCK"-type operation, loading and dwell times for each of the different train/trolley services caused delays. Also, the differing performance (acceleration, braking, top speed) tended to put the faster LIRR and BRT trains on the slower trolley schedules. Then there were the problems with the superiority of trains by right, class or direction (on the LIRR, eastbound trains are superior to westbound trains, for example.) and coordination of schedules.
It can be done, (it WAS done in Far Rock like that for over TWENTY years) but those are some of the logistical problems that arise if light rail/subway operation is to be attempted. But in this, the "tech revolution" era, it might be easier to implement than a century ago.
As for the LIRR Rockaway ROW, don't get me started again...:-)
It works just fine in Amsterdam (The Netherlands). The platforms are combination high-low; the subway trains stop short at the high end, and the light rail stuff goes to the end where the platform is low.
I believe Cleveland has this sort of setup, or did at one time judging from photographs I have seen.
Cleveland's rapid transit and Shaker Heights LRT line share similar ROW for a few miles with high platform and nearby low platform shelter.
It could be a cost effective way to extend transit routes.
The operating costs per car-mile for most light rail systems is greater than that for NYCT heavy rail.
The weight for heavy/light rail cars is on the order of 1000 lbs/linear foot. Thus, there would not be that much difference between right of way construction costs.
The operating costs per car-mile for most light rail systems is greater than that for NYCT heavy rail.
Isn't that because New York's heavy usage helps keep costs low? In other words, it may be an economies-of-scale situation, not something inherent to light and heavy rail.
Isn't that because New York's heavy usage helps keep costs low? In other words, it may be an economies-of-scale situation, not something inherent to light and heavy rail.
Then again it might be something inherent to light vs. heavy rail Consider the following data for 2001 from the National Transportation Database for same market light and heavy rail per vehicle-mile expenses:
SEPTA: HR: $7.07; LR: $13.47
MD-MTA: HR: $8.78; LR: $11.67
GC-RTA: HR: $13.47; LR: $14.72
BART/MUNI: HR: $5.58; LR: $20.52
MBTA: HR: $9.89; LR: $16.39
Do you discern some sort of pattern?
the BART/MUNI $ figures seem odd. By other metrics, MUNI in general is spoken of locally as the cheapest service provider per passenger carried, and their daily ridership is about double BART (includes buses and TC's) Also those figures predate the full implementation of OPTO on the LRV's. With most LRV runs now two car trains the labor cost per rider should be lower for 2002.
With most LRV runs now two car trains the labor cost per rider should be lower for 2002.
I purposely used operating exense figures, which should be independent of load factors and other measures of operating frequency relative to demand.
However, MUNI's cost per passenger-mile for LR is $0.76, which is tops for all the examples that I listed. The closest is SEPTA with $0.69. BART''s figure is $0.26 for the same statistic. NYCT's heavy rail operation runs at $0.26 per passenger-mile and $6.79 per vehicle-mile.
NYCT's bus operations would appear to have some room for improvement. The operating cost per vehicle mile is $13.97; SEPTA is $9.49 and MBTA is $8.50. The cost per passenger-mile is also high: $0.79 vs 0.76 and 0.71 for SEPTA and MBTA respectively.
The point is that LR's advocates should concentrate in reducing operating costs, if they really want a viable alternative.
The point is that LR's advocates should concentrate in reducing operating costs, if they really want a viable alternative.
How? What are the areas in which light rail tends to have excessive costs?
"NYCT's bus operations would appear to have some room for improvement. The operating cost per vehicle mile is $13.97"
Not surprising that NYCT's bus per-mile costs are high. It takes longer to travel a mile on the street in NYC than in any other city in the country. Note that the passenger-mile figures are much closer, indicating higher load factors and/or shorter trips.
Not surprising that NYCT's bus per-mile costs are high. It takes longer to travel a mile on the street in NYC than in any other city in the country.
That's 90% of the answer.
The expense per vehicle-hour is:
NYCT: $110.40
SEPTA: $98.05
MBTA: $94.76
Well, the rest may be why NYCT wants to consolidate bus operations.
The infamous potholes may have an effect too.
Possibly NY also has more long articulated buses.
Interesting numbers. Yes, I'll agree, it does indeed appear that there's something about light rail that makes it much more costly.
I do find the huge Bart/Muni disparity somewhat questionable.
I think the explanation may lie in the fact that these costs are per *vehicle*-mile. NYCT trains are mostly ten cars long with two staff (T/O & C/R) on each train. Light-rail operations being in places with less demand, they may be two- or even only one-car trains, but will still have one staff member on board each train. Staff costs are a big proportion of operating costs. You *could* save money by running longer, less frequent trains, but that would make the service less attractive and deter usage.
There is also the question of the capital cost of building lines - which certainly looms large if we are talking about proposed new lines, rather than the costs of operating existing ones built long ago. Light rail is cheaper to build because it can deal with sharper curves and steeper gradients, and can run on-street in places if necessary (as in Denver). Shorter trains also mean shorter stations, again saving capital expense.
I think the explanation may lie in the fact that these costs are per *vehicle*-mile. NYCT trains are mostly ten cars long with two staff (T/O & C/R) on each train. Light-rail operations being in places with less demand, they may be two- or even only one-car trains, but will still have one staff member on board each train. Staff costs are a big proportion of operating costs.
I specifically cited references for same markets outside NYC, where 600 foot trains are not normal. The comparison for LR vs HR was for these markets.
Buses have even less potential for reducing staff costs. However, LR per vehicle-mile costs are substantially greater for light rail than bus in the same market. Bus operating costs are generally equal to or slightly below heavy rail in these markets. The notable exceptions are NYCT and MUNI. SEPTA bus costs are greater but substantially less than those for MUNI or NYCT.
Light rail advocates must come to grips with their high operating costs. Any reduced construction cost (real or imaginary) would be quickly overwhelmed by the substantially greater operating costs.
Can anyone come up with a good explanation why light rail costs more to *operate* than buses? (I assume that Stephen's figures exclude capital depreciation and interest payments on capital; these would understandably be higher for light rail than for bus, though lower than for heavy rail.)
(I assume that Stephen's figures exclude capital depreciation and interest payments on capital; these would understandably be higher for light rail than for bus, though lower than for heavy rail.)
These are not my figures. They are compiled for the National Transportation Database. They are available on the web for just about every transit operator in the USA. I just happen to read them. :-)
Can anyone come up with a good explanation why light rail costs more to *operate* than buses?
My guess is maintenance of way expenses and high cost of vehicle maintenance. The first guess is based on reading the NYCBOT costs during the trolley car days in the early 1950's - available at the NYPL. The second is based on the "boutique" equipment design in the post PCC era compared to buses.
A Lion to be considered in this case would seem to be the Newark Subway and the Path line. Perhaps thru Path trains during rush hours only?
avid
Sorry. Newark City Subway not equipped with high level plats or third rail. But it's an interesting idea!
The third rail and platforms wound be the the biggest modification, with the possible addition of a layup track or two to store about four train sets for PATH.
How would the City Sub get to the top of Penn??? Thats a long way. There would have to be a tunnel bridge to say Harrison where they could meet
Eliminate PATH, run NCS and NERL on the PATH tracks.
Just kidding, I learned my lesson the first time.
Hey, IRT cars will fit the PATH tunnels. Eliminate PATH, put the IRT in at Ground Zero, and you can ride the 1/9 all the way to Newark! Cool! LOL!
Yes but you'd still just have a heavy rail line running out to newark, no real advantage for the ridership, it'd just be a change of equipment, that's about it. It would be a neat railfan deal for a little while, and then go back to just being the PATH newark line, just with new equipment.
Light Rail could directly benefit the people who most need it, and, if you spread the net wide enough, you can have so many trains running into the tunnels that capacity at either end remains the same. Can LRTs run with closer headways? It seems to me that they can, having watched the MFL and the Subway Surface here in Philly for a while, the Sub-Surface trolleys definitely have more TPH, albeit with a smaller train. Plus, theres the added advantage of having the Sub Surfaces cars run out to places like Darby, Eastwick, and Overbrook and then not having to fight traffic all the way down market st or chestnut st. Should Philly, or septa rather, choose, they could run LRTs out market, chestnut, or any number of other streets, thus serving more people with trolley service. The same thing is applicable to New York, instead of running one heavy rail line that will benefit only those with the cars to get to it, you run a light rail line in place of a heavily used bus, the LRT can run on a dedicated ROW for a distance and make up time from the traffic it may have encountered on street running, serving the people who need it, time that a bus would not be able to make up, and the IRT cars would not be able to benefit the neighborhood quite as well.
Alright, instead of knocking PATH off it's tracks, how about running the NERL, NCS, and whatever extentions off those lines across the bottom of the kearny, where the Passaic and Hackensack rivers get real close, onto the HBLRT, up the HBLRT to their own tunnel or bridge in the vicinity of 34th st, so as to service the Javits Center. All three lines, that means people from Bayonne, Newark, Elizabeth, all of them would get a one seat ride into manhatten, without the cost to them of a PATH fare ontop of the LRT ticket. By spreading the wealth, running trains a great variety of places, high TPH can be achieved, and as such the costs would drop for the tunnel, similar to how the New York subways can achieve lower costs by moving a bunch of people. Also, the Meadowlands line could be run off this, to the north from the tunnel portal, although it is likely that NJT would also stop their Main Line trains there.
This causes problems here in England for one reason alone...
Light rail cars have a low headstock,subway type cars have a higher headstock and in the event of any collision some form of override will take place with the (heavier) subway stock riding over (or under)the (lighter) light rail stock.
One day a suburbam electric unit (British rail type 313) passed a signal at danger and hit a 1959 tube stock in the rear. the difference in buffer height (headstock) saw the heavier unit actually ride up and over into the tube stock car, so share of the same track by different stock needs careful thought.
The 'tube' still shares main line running to this day in a few places.
Rob
But the London tube isn't "light rail", so the examples where it shares track with suburban rail aren't quite the original question on this thread!
One reason for building light rail instead of heavy rail where it *does* save money to do so (pace Stephen Baumann) is where you have to build totally new ROW, not previously used for any form of rail transit. LRVs can negotiate steeper hills and sharper curves than real trains, and hence the construction costs for the line can be lower. This is one of the reasons why the Docklands LR in London was a relative bargain.
Several LR lines in the UK use former rail ROW but most of them are now physically separate. I can think of two examples (Birkbeck in London and Navigation Road in Manchester) where a station that used to be a conventional two-side-platforms arrangement on a double-track line has become two separate single-line stations, one track having been handed over to the LR operation while the other track remains with heavy rail.
However, between Newcastle upon Tyne and Sunderland, the Tyne and Wear Metro (which some people consider to be light rail) will soon be sharing tracks with heavy-rail passenger trains (DMUs, actually).
Every so often there's talk of turning 42 Street into a one way, with LRT on the unused half of the street, running to Javits Center. Tunnelling, however is always a long term project, so LRT might have to cross the Hudson via, say a PATH tunnel. With connections to Hudson Bergen at Pavonia Avenue, this seems doable. A HB light rail line via PATH on into midtown, the East Side and possibly Queens via the 59th Street Bridge? The bridge did carry trolley cars until 1957, it certainly could handle LRT.
The only problem with street running in NYC would be all the train vs. car accidents I'd be responding to. Folks here can't drive as it is, now there'll be trains that can't get out of the way for them to hit...
PATH is a railroad, not a Subway. You can't mix transit and railroads.
Steve Hoskins is correct. The Cleveland system uses both modes from the rehabbed Union Terminal/Public Square to the point where the Green/Blue Shaker Light Rail diverges. The classic problems are less apparent because the entire system is lightly used.
Back in the olden days, Chicago had interurbans running right up onto the L line and running down to the Loop.
I'm ignoring the "olden days" remark, since I had the pleasure of riding those interurbans into Chicago's Loop. Neither the Chicago Aurora & Elgin, North Shore Line, nor Chicago's rapid transit could in any sense be considered "light rail".
The whole idea of the Baltimore Rail Plan is to encompass the "BIG 3"
Subway, Light Rail and Commuter Rail
you can add lost angeles to you list .....!!
the red line subway 2 nowhere
light rail lines blue , green , gold ...
you can add lost angeles to you list .....!!
( los angeles ) ....?
the red line subway 2 nowhere
light rail lines blue , green , gold ...
I found out something very interesting today during my journey to BERA.
Before I reveal anything, I want to ask a question and see how much you know.
How should I ask this? Ok - What year was the last elevated line in the Bronx built? It's a two track structure, and has only recently had a train on it's rails (in the last two months). Name the location!
How can a new structure be old?
Answers to be posted later today.
-Stef
My first thought is the lower level at Gun Hill Road.
No cigar!!! Nice try....
-Stef
The structure has BRT roots....
-Stef
Did TA open up the express tracks on the Dyre Ave Line?
Yes, but that would make the Dyre Av Line 3 tracks, most of which is on an embankment.
-Stef
I thought the ROW on the Dyre had 4 tracks?
4 Tracks, 3 of which are continuous from Morris Park to Dyre Av.
The 4th track ends at the edge of Pelham Pkwy Station, and picks up again north of Baychester Avenue.
-Stef
The third track in question doesn't qualify as an express track, but rather, a test bed for new quipment.
-Stef
When the Westchester ran there, It was an express track.
could the track be used to lay up(and terminate) trains at Baychester Avenue? some (3)s could go to Baychester and lay up on the Middle tracks
The track was not intended for revenue service although that could always change, and there are no switches from Baychester Av to that third track. The 3s would still go to Dyre Avenue, reverse and then would layup on the center track. Y3 is the through test track, the two sections of Y4 (south of Dyre and the section at Morris Park) may be abandoned. Does anyone know for sure?
You could send the 3s from the East and lay up at Morris Park.
-Stef
The Oak Point freight connector between Highbridge Yard and Oak Point Yard, running along the Harlem River shoreline on an elevated right of way.
Its only 1 track
Acceptable. I was actually thinking of your typical El structure on which NYCT Subway Trains run. Answer shortly.
-Stef
If that is the ROW that I see from MetroNorth as it crosses into the Bronx, that has 2 tracks. I don't think it was elevated.
It's one track and it's above the water.
How do we define the A as it crosses the Bay into the Rockaways?
-Stef
Trestle?
I must be absent minded today! Why DUH! What was I thinking?
-Absent Minded Stef (LOL)
Maybe vacation is wearing you down. Might be time to go back to work.
I will make my grand return next Sunday, 1/19. The Concourse Line will be under my watch....
-Stef
I should be taking the PM at R165 the week of the 26th.
I'll definitely see you as I am doing the escort at the PT Time booth on Thursday, 1/30, and head up to 110th St afterwards. On Friday, 1/31, I'll be your lunch! We'll finally meet (unless you're taking an AVA)!
-Stef
And if I can get N164, I'll be there as well.
I got it...I think
The the tracks that used to be part of that Railroad System that was supposed to go to Boston, south of East 180 Street! Thats 2 tracks and the tracks are gone now so I assume that
Close, but no cigar! This was a very tricky question. Answer coming momentarily!
-Stef
The last NYC Rapid Transit Elevated Structure to be constrcuted in the Bronx was 1990. The short, two track structure is currently located at the NYCT Tiffany Iron Works Shop in the Hunts Point Section of the Bronx. It is used for training purposes. The structure does not connect to anything in the system.
How can a new structure really be old?
The new structure erected at this site is really an old Dual Contracts El from the 1918 era. To be precise, this is the only instance of the BRT invading the Bronx! The Tiffany El previously called Jamaica Av home, the abandoned portion of the J Line above 121 Street. During the time the Tiffany El was put up, the unused portion of the J at Metropolitan Av and Queens Blvd was torn down. Just imagine for a moment, and el being cut down, shipped to the Bronx, and reassembled! Incredible!
How does a train run on a structure that has never seen passenger service?
In what is said to be one of Joe Hoffman's last acts as Senior VP of NYCT before he stepped down in late 2002, Hoffman had a pair of recently retired Redbirds brought to the Iron Works Shop. The scene is now a little more complete. That particular pair would have been trucked into the facility and lifted by crane to the structure.
What is unknown to me is what car class this might be and what numbers they have. I think I may have given myself something to do.
This calls for an investigation. Now, if I could get a picture!
-Stef
Where would the Tiffany Iron Works Shop be located in Hunt's Point?
Tiffany Street and Oak Point Avenue, accessible by car.
-Stef
If it isn't connected to a rail system, it better be accessable by car.
Of course. I've seen it on a few occassions. It's in the middle of a highly industrial area. There is the BX6 Bus which stops nearby on Hunts Point Av, but runs into the Food Center. Oak Point Freight yard extends back into this area. There are tracks that ran through the market.
-Stef
I had the idea that there was some rail link between Oak Point Yard and the Hunt's Point Market Site. And it probably links up with Con Ed and the sewage treatment works over there.
When I drove through there a few years ago, the tracks appeared to be unused. I'm not too familiar with the trackage there, but there is also a CSX industrial spur which juts out of the NEC, near the Sheridan Expwy and runs on or near Edgewater Rd. One can see the track as the uptown 6 leaves Whitlock Av.
-Stef
Wow! Is that true? My beloved Jamaica Ave el still exists...in the Bx?
YesSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!
-Hyper Stef
Several years ago the Transit Museum sponsored a tour of the shop facility and we got to climb up on the El. It's just BARELY long enough for two Redbirds... or at least that's my recollection. They weren't on the structure then, obviously.
It's also not very high off the ground - just up far enough to provide useful instruction in walking on an elevated structure.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chris, I'll have to go and investigate this.
-Stef
***"Just imagine for a moment, and el being cut down, shipped to the Bronx, and reassembled! Incredible!"***
Yes Stef, it was shipped and reasembled.
I know of a portion of the Washington Avenue El from Boston, that
was shipped North including a station, that is awaiting reassembly.
The station also shadows an arnine and an almond joy.
;-) Sparky
An El etation at Seashore? What?!?
-Stef
Stef,
You have to make that trip North and survey the selection of options
available. There is a station from the Orange Line at 195 Log Cabin
Road. Now if the weatherman, who's about reading, could identify
which, we would appreciate.
Also, Coney Island [North] is progressing.
;-) Sparky
Todd,
Which station from the Orange Line is now at STM???
Respond on my previous post to Stef.
Thanks, ;-)Sparky
What John Todd Isnt the only STM member here LOL. The answer is Northhampton Sta from the Washington St El and also Tower C from The Atlantic Ave El. Stevie
Stevie,
Nothing personel, when I wrote the post, I knew Todd was on the board
at that time, that's why I directed it to him. Don't get into a tissy.
;-) Sparky
DEFINITELY gotta see this! :)
>>>How does a train run on a structure that has never seen passenger service?
In what is said to be one of Joe Hoffman's last acts as Senior VP of NYCT before he stepped down in late 2002, Hoffman had a pair of recently
retired Redbirds brought to the Iron Works Shop. The scene is now a little more complete. That particular pair would have been trucked into the
facility and lifted by crane to the structure.
What is unknown to me is what car class this might be and what numbers they have. I think I may have given myself something to do.
This calls for an investigation. Now, if I could get a picture! <<<
Looks like a job for....
www.forgotten-ny.com
if I could find the time to get in there..safely....
Kevin,
I think it would be a nice piece for your site. Keep up the good work!
Regards,
Stef
Very interesting! We need photos!
They might be coming.....
-Stef
Is this something the average Joe (or Kevin or Mark or JohnS) can see from the street?
--Mark
Yes. It is quite visible. I've seen the Tiffany El on a few occassions.
-Stef
Tiffany El. It almost sounds like something from CBS.
Eh?
I could call it the Jamaica El, except Jamaica Av doesn't run in the Bronx. Heh.
-Stef
What *I* wanna know is can I get some handle time on it? :)
A certain TSS tipped me off about the odd El structure at Tiffany Iron Works.
It is unique in that you have an old BRT El structure in the Bronx with A-Division cars on the structure! Talk about a strange sight! :)
Bill was the person who mentioned it, while he was tinkering with the R-17 on Saturday Night. I thought I should post it, because it would make a great conversation piece.
-Stef
What's so unusual about A Division cars on a BRT structure?
In Brooklyn, O.K. ... But in the Bronx. HMM!!!
ROTFLOL, :-) Sparky
Good one, Dave! Hahahahahahahaha....
HeHe, yeah I thought that was pretty funny myself.....
"What year was the last elevated line in the Bronx built? It's a two track structure, and has only recently had a train on it's rails (in the last two months). Name the location!"
Except for the IND Concourse Line everything else in the Bronx is IRT. I would think that this is something that was built a long time ago. But only now has it actually had trains running on it. There was mention of BRT roots. But the BRT never went to the Bronx. It never went north of 60 St in Manhattan.
The only thing I can think of is:
TA reconnected the old Westchester ROW at E 180 St to Conrail so they could move diesals to and from Linden Shops.
Check my previous post.
-Stef
I did after I made my last post.
This was a great exercise in trivia! Thanks!
Not like some of the occassional questions asked like "When did the first subway line open?" and other easy questions.
You're welcome.
Despite riding the LIRR several times and observing BAHN layouts on it, I still can't figure it out. The timetables for each branch designate three directions south of Jamaica: Flatbush, Hunterspoint, and Penn Sta. I know that the line out to Penn Sta is basically a four track line, local and express, until the Port Washington branch meets making 6.
Question 1: How many tracks go under the river into Penn Sta: 2, 4, or 6?
Then there's that branch with 7 stops in Queens.
Question 2: Where does that branch go? I would think Hunterspoint, but BAHN layouts seem to depict the Hunterspoint trains joing the four track ROW from Penn Sta. Where does Long Island City {a fourth terminal for the LIRR?} come in? Also, how much service do the following see each day: HuntersPoint, LIC, and the 7 local stops that have been the topic of discussion lately?
Any answers are greatly appreciated.
1) Four tracks go into Penn from Queens. Designated Lines 1 through 4, Lines 1 and 3 usually carry eastbound trains, and Lines 2 and 4 carry westbound. All four tubes are reverse signalled, so in the event that one tube is OOS, the other three can handle traffic in either direction. Generally, the LIRR uses Lines 3 and 4 except during rush hours, when it uses all 4. Amtrak and NJT use Lines 1 and 2 except, again during rush hours.
2) The Long Island City Branch runs from Jamaica to Long Island City, at Vernon Av./50th Ave (on the East River.) From there you can take the #7 train on into Manhattan. Five trains a day arrive at LIC and five more depart there. The arrivals are all AM rush, and the departures all PM rush. Only ONE train (the 8:11 AM from Jamaica) actually travels over the LIC branch in the morning and only one afternoon train (the 4:54 to Port Jeff) covers the branch. All of the other LIC trains get there via Hunterspoint Avenue (which is only about 6 blocks east of LIC.
There were station stops along the way, (Richmond Hill, Haberman, Glendale, Penny Bridge, etc...) but owing to low ridership these were closed. The last, Richmond Hill, was closed in the late 1990's.
Hope this helps...:-)
Very good answer. The "Long Island City Branch" is offically the Montauk Branch.
OOPS! You're right. I just tend to think of it as the LIC Branch...BTW is it a COOL line to railfan or WHAT? You'll see an operating ROUNDHOUSE, a short line freight operation, SW1001 moves (at LIC #100 acually does the yard moves with the modern bi levels), grade crossings in QUEENS, R142/143's on flatcars, old port railroad trackage, Dunton yard, etc., etc...but I digress. Thanks for reminding me of the branch's right name.
You're very welcome!
All of the Montauk station were closed at the same time in 1998.
I actually thought Richmond Hill held out a little longer, but I stand corrected. Looked it up and it's true. Thanks.
Richmond Hill Station was the only station that still had a station. Closest thing elsewhere on the line was an abondoned stairway going down to the roadbed at Fresh Pond. Also a "lean-to" at track site. Elsewhere there was no station unless you knew where the train would stop.
Yeah, I know. I rode to LIC many times before the stations were closed. Penny Bridge has a little ped. overpass where the train used to stop but no plats. Interestingly if the LIRR had wanted to operate bi-levels to these stations, it would have been forced to build high level plats at all except Richmond Hill. Ridership did not justify this expense, so these stations were doomed by the bi-levels. LIC itself has a two-car high level plat. LIC never had more than a plat (unusual in itself for a western term) and is still underutilized considering its convenience.
Most were just a "stop" on a grade crossing. Here's what they all looked like:
Richmond Hill (the only "real" looking station)
Glendale
Fresh Pond
Haberman
Penny Bridge
If you never showed me Haberman or Penny Bridge, I wouldn't know where it was located. Fresh Pond looks pretty much as I remember it. Maspeth reminds me of a small town with the local cemetery near by. Richmond Hill I think will be used again when LIRR trains are unable to use the river tunnels to Penn Station and diesal trains have to be rerouted to LIC or Hunterpoint's Ave.
Inside Penn Station, lines are numbered 4-3-2-1 (north to south), Timetable direction is east to Harold. However, in the East River, lines 2 and 3 change position. 2 crosses over 3 or 3 crosses over 2. However, when the tracks come out at Sunnyside, the tracks are 4-2-3-1 (north to south.) Track 4 is the side closest to Sunnyside.
Don't forget to include the two Amtrak tracks that come from the Hell Gate Bridge.
Michael
Twice so far people have been cut up by EDPs wielding edged weapons. The first was Friday at 0530 at Chambers Street on the J/M/Z. The second attack was aboard a #7 train at 2120 Friday between Queensboro Plaza and Hunterspoint Avenue. No arrests yet, so PLEASE be careful!!!
In transit we ALL have to be careful. Anytime, Anyplace, Anywhere.
Time to beef up the decoy squad...
A large number of police officers, firefighters and others are about to be called up to active duty with that Iraq thing looming. There is no planned funding to replace them while they're away. So time to catch this nutcake is NOW, while we still have a useful number of cops around ...
You mean before Mayor Doomberg lays off the cops who don't go off to war? Just asking.
Maybe he'll be able to hire them back once he cashes his (now tax free) dividend check. :)
Gee. Can I sell my shares of Bloomberg LP short (tax free?) or better yet, convert them to TRANSIT BONDS! (hee hee hee). Seriously, some of those layoffs are gonna come from the NYPD Transit Bureau. When that happens, response times are gonna increase, and subway slashers and other creeps are gonna have that much MORE escape time. Thanks, Doomie!
MANY other politicians deserve a Bronx cheer as well here. If we had an economy, things would have been VERY different right now.
Gee. Can I sell my shares of Bloomberg LP short (tax free?) or better yet, convert them to TRANSIT BONDS! (hee hee hee). Seriously, some of those layoffs are gonna come from the NYPD Transit Bureau. When that happens, response times are gonna increase, and subway slashers and other creeps are gonna have that much MORE escape time. Thanks, Doomie!
I have a question related to this. I know the first slasher ran into the tunnel system to get away haven't heard about the second. The question I have is why so many folks are allowed in the subway system? You pay once and can stay forever?? In the past year I have seen on the C train a man with 5 cats living in one car. He was really feeding the cats right on the floor. A kid sitting in the corner of the car smoking weed. Right on a crowded train. More homeless or crazy people than you can count. The same 4 or 5 beggars asking for money everytime you ride the train. I know we have been getting out of 9/11 but what is going on???? Do all of the transit police officers stay in times square?? Or where are the politicians passing laws saying you can't live in the subway. I know its cold and that could be some of the problem but for a city's image. It looks really bad.
I know its not that easy because there are hundreds of miles of tunnels, etc... but what do people on this board think when it comes to making the subways feel safer??
When I was working EMS in East Harlem a couple years ago, we were dispatched to a report of a man down in the Lex line. Turned out to be on the express level, in the tunnel, so we had a lite train take us to the patient's location around 117 Street or so. Turned out he was a homeless man who'd carved out a nice little dwelling for himself. Transit cops even found where he'd spliced AC wiring to give himself electricity. He had a little icebox, too! He was sick, a work crew had found him and called us. The kicker was, when I got his ID (A MEDICAID card, at that) it turned out he was wanted on warrants for stealing. The stolen property was the little icebox, the little hot plate and the little varoius items he stole from transit folks all over the system. See for a buck fifty you can move in, too...
When I first moved to Chicago in 1995 it was a constant thing to be hassled for money or to see vagrants on the train just riding for hours or days.
Then Mayor Daley had the police crack down on panhandling on CTA property and I only rarely get panhandled now and the majority of drunks I see now are college kids.
Chicago's not as big as New York, but we still have a lot of stations and trains to watch and we've been able to contain the problem - I think New York can too.
Yeah, but in NYC you can live in the tunnel and still get Medicare, too. :-)
Yes, I heard about both of them on the news. I am always cautious on the subway. Everyone be safe when riding the subways!
I think its all fear over nothing. Crime isn't up, and even still, you're highly unlikely to be a victim of anything, let alone this scumoid.
Wait till Doomberg lays the cops off.
You must mean Beameberg? :-)
Lets not get so worried guys. You should be cautious no matter what but if we see a spike in violent subway crime, then we should worry.
I am merely pointing out that, the last time NYC laid off its cops in the late '70s, our subway began its abysmal slide into the zoo it became in the early '80s. Cuts in public safety services always will have this result. I would hate to see us lose all the gains we've made since then.
I know right, laying off any city serice employee, especially cops and firefighters, does major damage to the city. We cannot let the subway be referred to as "The Jungle" again, look how long it took to get the subway where it is now.
Took 15 years. The NYPD itself took 10 years to recover professionally from the bloodletting (layoffs) of the 1970s. Doomberg should think about this.
You know Doomie is not thinking, what was he thinking trying to close down 8 firehouses? Lets not the number of years it took for new life for the subways to arise be wasted w/o coming up wit a possible alternative first. If possible, let some of these cops go into the Transit division and reduce the # of possible layoffs.
But hey ... we're getting tax cuts. "Cops on the beat" was a "clinton" thing. Damned liberals.
Oh, now you want cops on the beat, too? Good God, next you'll want a firehouse, and, while you're at it can you please ask Doomberg if I can have my EMS supervisors back, please, and the 38 ambulance tours he cut out with them. Oh, and can you send me some of that snow you got up there, in pressurized containers, so I can put my house out when it burns? The Engine Co. is gonna be closed.
Don't even get me started on what's gonna happen when Doomie takes away the city's MTA funding. I'll be riding a burro through the tunnel to work!
No cops around up here, that's why we have guns. No fire department, that's why we have BEER (you get the picture) and when medical attention is required, that's why we have ice flows. But we DO have snow, back in a truck or five and we'll be happy to assist.
But yeah, what's happening to cities all over the country (and ESPECIALLY here in New York) is a combination of tax cuts for the wealthy resulting in cutbacks in "aid to cities" combined with "unfunded mandates" where things are supposed to be done by fiat, but no money to do it WITH are provided by those who force the requirements. Your typical republican "recovery formula" ... push the costs onto the smallest governments and pass the savings on to Enron.
And to think, THIS year's (FY 2002) cuts are NOTHING compared to NEXT years (FY 2003) ... but not to worry, the increased expenses WILL be met with even less revenue. Deficits are GOOD ... disregard what was said about deficits in previous administrations being "bad" ...
So what goes first: shake up your fourty or cock your fourty-five? Republican formula is to suck the weiners and Democrat formula is to increase welfare. I'm for Mussolini......make the trains run on time......everyone is happy. VOTE NO FOR RATIFICATION......let the rats drown in sinking Redbird carbodies. Give me juice. CI Peter
We had National Lead (NL Industries) over in Latham. So we use depleted uranium. Evens the score. :)
I'm for Mussolini......make the trains run on time......everyone is happy.
A historical fallacy, by the way. Mussolini did not actually make the trains run on time, but somehow he got the reputation of having done so.
>>> I'm for Mussolini......make the trains run on time......everyone is happy. <<<
You can kiss your chance to be Senate majority leader goodbye. :-)
Tom
I seem to recall that "deficits" were the reason why when I was a kid I could ride the #2 train out to E.180 Street at night and watch the Bronx burn. But hey, what do I know, right? The folks in City Hall aren't impressed with the fact that I saw this with my own eyes.
Did our politicians stay awake in high school civics class when we were told about the "public trust"? Or are they STILL asleep? Meanwhile, I'm going to the stable at 254th and Broadway to get a saddle for my burro, which I'll soon be riding up the Lex Line.
Most folks don't even BOTHER to vote ... this is the result. But hey, no taxes on those dividend checks. Woohoo!
You know very well that they are still asleep ;-). That's what happens when you have dysfunctional politicians here in NYC.
I hear hoofbeats in my future...
No problem. Just get sick during the day, when your EMT can get to work. The burro's only going to be a night thing.
Hopefully waiting on a platform won't be like playing Groucho Marx's old game show: "You Bet Your Life".
The efforts of Heins and LaFarge and, later, Squire Vickers, are well known for their attractive and functional methods of subway station appointments in the early days of the system.
But what about the more streamlined efforts that were done from about 1968 (when the new Grand Street station opened) and the early 1980s, when a more nostalgic, retrofitting philosophy took hold? Is there any way to research what design firms, for example, redid the stations on the Broadway BMT, or partially redid the IRT stations in lower Manhattan? Occasionally a jarring juxtaposition takes place, such as Atlantic Avenue, which has Heins & La Farge 'A' plaques with bas relief tulips...right next to a bare-bones mid 1960s wall panel!
As much as the modern, streamlined look may be out of favor today, we're now over 30 years away from its first appearnce--long enough to look at that particuar style with some historical perspective.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I don't think that all of the more modern subway tile designs are necessarily bad, either. Stations such as 57th Street-6th Avenue and Grand Street are plain and functional..and entirely keeping in character with the era in which they were designed and built.
There have been some truly horrid renovations, such as the stations below 14th Street on the Lexington, where no attempt was made to prvovide a unified appearance; the stations are one-half Heins-LaFarge, one-quarter IND, and one-quarter turquoise 1960's tile.
Even some of the more modern renovations look crude when compared to the most recent remodels. Wall Street and 51st Street on the Lex are really lazy-looking, half-assed renovations, utilizing partially bricked-up walls. Even Astor Place, the first "retro" remodel, now pales in comparison to stations such as 66th Street-Lincoln Center or the Canal Street Stations on the BMT.
The problem with the 1970s "refrigerator" tile on the BMT is not that it is so hideous, but because classic Vickers tile was covered up instead of being restored. (Ironically, the lazy, bricked-up renovations preserved the original tile underneath, allowing the eventual restoration of the Vickers scheme.)
Although some may disagree, I would venture to guess that what many people find objectionable is the destruction of something ornate from an earlier era. I haven't heard many complaints about the Vickers-style tiles that replaced the IND-style tiles at Fulton and Broad on the Nassau Street line, or on 8th Avenue on the 14th Street-Canarsie Line. Similarly, nobody seems to mind the additional fancy tilework applied to many stations on the lower 7th Avenue Line, the IRT Flatbush Line, or on stations such as 5th Avenue/60th Street.
Even some of the more modern renovations look crude when compared to the most recent remodels. Wall Street and 51st Street on the Lex are really lazy-looking, half-assed renovations, utilizing partially bricked-up walls. Even Astor Place, the first "retro" remodel, now pales in comparison to stations such as 66th Street-Lincoln Center or the Canal Street Stations on the BMT.
I agree with your point about some of the newer remodelings, but I'd have to say that Astor Place still looks pretty sharp.
>>>I'd have to say that Astor Place still looks pretty sharp. <<
However, Astor was remade in the mid-1980s, and of late, it's beginning to show its age once again with peeling paint and rust. Let's not let this terrific subway station deteriorate again.
For my money the worst of the 80s remakes was Hoyt on the #2 & #3...yechh. There's still a considerable amount of the old stuff there so you can compare it.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yeah, Hoyt is pretty bad. Those striped walls are so bad. It's hard to believe it's a Contract 2 station.
I think the 80's renovation at 23rd Street Lex is also bad, although at least it only is done to the fare control areas, and a bit on the platforms. That orange tile is so unfitting for the station. It completely obliterates much of the original Contract 1 part of the station. I wonder if it's still under there, or if it's simply destroyed. I was never in the station before the 80's renovation, does anyone remember what 23rd Street looked like before they did that to the contract one part of the station? Thankfully, the extensions on both sides are done in that modified IND scheme, unlike the ugly extensions on the Lower part of Lex.
Actually I like the Hoyt St renovation however, they left some of the original wall at the ends of the station and the red stripes is a oddball but other than that its fine to me.
The worst station of the 1980's; renovated or new goes to 21 St Queensbridge, its so dark, tacky and doesn't have much appeal IMO.
I don't mind Queensbridge too much. It also reflects the time it was were built. I agree old stations and design have more "charm", but I think Queensbridge would be out of place if they decided to tile it like Fulton or Broad or give it some other "retro" look. I am more upset with stations where the mosaics were destroyed or covered over.
I would hope that if they build a 2nd Ave subway, they would not give it a retro look. I love it in all the older stations, but it would not be fitting for a new line. The SAS needs it's own look, and it will probably be a more modern look.
I agree, 2 Av does need its own style, let the retro looks STAY in the existing stations. Nothing beats the refridgerator tiling of the 1970's on 4 Av and the recent restoration of tiles on the Broadway local stations, the ABSOLUTE WORST station renovations of all time. Queensbridge could have been a lot brighter like Sutphin Blvd on the E and J/Z.
Sutphin Blvd looks like crap. Parsons is a much better design.
My ratings of the newer stations
Origional Appearance
LEX/63-3
Roosevelt-5
Queensbridge-2
Van Wyck-5
Sutphin-4
Jamaica-5
How they have held up
LEX/63-5
Roosevelt-5
Queensbridge-3
Van Wyck-4
Sutphin-2
Jamaica-5
Functionality(Ease of entering/leaving)
LEX/63-2
Roosevelt-3
Queensbridge-4
Van Wyck-2
Sutphin-5
Jamaica-5
Brightness
LEX/63-4
Roosevelt-5
Queensbridge-3
Van Wyck-3
Sutphin-2
Jamaica-4
Queen Bridge gets a 2? I hope that's a good rating.. especially compare to the Sutphin station.
N Broadway
"I agree, 2 Av does need its own style, let the retro looks STAY in the existing stations. Nothing beats the refridgerator tiling of the 1970's on 4 Av and the recent restoration of tiles on the Broadway local stations, the ABSOLUTE WORST station renovations of all time. Queensbridge could have been a lot brighter like Sutphin Blvd on the E and J/Z. "
Everything 60's and 70's are bad..Just look at some of the buildings that went up during that time... And the clothes that people were wearing...
The 80's brought great improvement, indeed.
N Bwy
"The worst station of the 1980's; renovated or new goes to 21 St Queensbridge, its so dark, tacky and doesn't have much appeal IMO. "
21st Street is nice compare to the new stations serving the "E" line...
N Broadway
149th Street-3rd Avenue AND 137th Street-City College. Two stations that were sacked and stripped of their original artwork (some of it was left at 137th Street). A sin and a sacrilege.
wayne
Wow, you must be reading my mind!!! You kind of said it all, but to add a bit:
There have been some truly horrid renovations, such as the stations below 14th Street on the Lexington, where no attempt was made to prvovide a unified appearance; the stations are one-half Heins-LaFarge, one-quarter IND, and one-quarter turquoise 1960's tile.
Those have got to be some of the worse. They are bad on the Contract 1 section of the West Side line, but at least the beige is somewhat neutral. On lower Lexington it is simply awful. No attention to aesthetics was given at all. Hopefully soon they will mercibly be covered over. Canal and Astor is done, Bleecker is on the books to be done. I can't remember off hand if they removed them at Spring when they did a half-assed renovation a few years ago and unfortunately removed all the pillar encasings. I know they weren't original, but I always liked them. They covered over the "Canal" on the Canal pillars. Thankfully at 33rd they preserved the 33's on the pillars.
Interestingly, the local stations at 23, 28, and 33 luckily never got the aqua tiles on their extensions. However I hate the 1980's renovation at 23rd. They really need to rip those orange tiles off the fare control walls, and the floor there also. There is basically none of the original Contract 1 station showing there, except for a 23rd Street mosaic inside a newstand, and two or three little 23's along the ceiling. The renovation there is awful.
Even some of the more modern renovations look crude when compared to the most recent remodels. Wall Street and 51st Street on the Lex are really lazy-looking, half-assed renovations, utilizing partially bricked-up walls.
While I kind of like 51st Street, I have to agree that Wall Street is ugly. They really need to remove the blue bricks there and do a better job at renovating it. Luckily all the mosaics are there, and in good condition. ANd if there is anything else covered, it should be restorable if need be.
The problem with the 1970s "refrigerator" tile on the BMT is not that it is so hideous, but because classic Vickers tile was covered up instead of being restored.
I agree 100% with that. I really don't mind the look of the stations on 4th Ave in Brooklyn, and the way Broadway used to look. The reason I wanted it gone (or want it gone on 4th Ave) is/was not because it was a bad look, but because it covered all those great mosaics. It never should have been put there in the first place. If it had been used as original tile in stations it would have been a nice clean look. For example, if they had actually built the 2nd Ave subway in that timeframe, I think it would have been a nice look for the 2nd Ave subway of the 70's. It would have reflected the time in which it was built, and would not be a blight because it wouldn't be covering over mosaics.
Although some may disagree, I would venture to guess that what many people find objectionable is the destruction of something ornate from an earlier era. I haven't heard many complaints about the Vickers-style tiles that replaced the IND-style tiles at Fulton and Broad on the Nassau Street line, or on 8th Avenue on the 14th Street-Canarsie Line.
Very true. It is actually an improvement there over the original tile, and very fitting in those stations, as it matches the rest of the line that they are on. However, I would not like it if they started to make let's say the Queens Blvd line into "BMT" looking stations like they did at Fulton or Broad. (Those three "IND" looking stations look better now than when they were new and fit on the lines they are on). I actually like the classic look of the IND stations. They too reflect the time in which they were built. Of course they are not nearly as nice as the older BMT or IRT stations, and even a bit depressing in their stark utility, but they are nice in their own way.
Similarly, nobody seems to mind the additional fancy tilework applied to many stations on the lower 7th Avenue Line, the IRT Flatbush Line, or on stations such as 5th Avenue/60th Street.
The low end stations of the West side line are masterpieces. They made them each unique, and fresh, while preserving the great features of the past. 18th, Houston, Franklin, Canal - they are all different looking, and very nicely done.
Sorry if this post is long, but this is one of my favorite topics.
>>>Wall Street and 51st Street on the Lex are really lazy-looking, half-assed renovations, utilizing partially bricked-up walls. <<<
I do intend to represent these 'hybrid' type stations on
www.forgotten-ny.com
as well.
I was at a conference at the new school in the early 1990s where a newly-hired woman (I forget her name) as the head architect of the TA described past station renovations as "wall papering", were underlying issues of circulation, leaks, etc. were ignored. Ever since then renovations have been far more comprehensive.
For the record, since I went to high school by Union Sq (Xavier HS) in the early 1970s, I have seen FOUR renovations of the Union Sq. station complex and only the last one seems to have done it right. At the worst there was a bunch of deaf-mutes that hung out in the maze of corridors that used to wind between the 2 BMT stations. A later change put the BMT B'way turnstile area across most of the mezzanine, making it very difficult to pass when tranferring to the IRT or the LL (now the L).
I always found (when I was a regular user of the Union Square Complex in the early 90's) when transferring between the L and the 6 that the easiest way was not listening to the way they said to do it following the signs. To transfer between the L and the 6, I use to transfer to the N and R platform, walk on that platform to the first stairway, which led to the mezzanine of the Broadway line, and a nice, simple hallway to the Lexington line. At the time it was a lot better than the maze of stairways and hallways that the signs from the L to the 6 had you do from the L platform.
I believe they did fix that maze up a bit now since the renovation, but I still think my way is much faster (and it always gave me a chance for a few seconds to check out the trains on the Broadway line's platform each day).
You are correct about transferring that way at Union Sq. Going from the L to the IRT via the B'way platform was pretty direct, especially to the more "direct" way through that big "room".
I said in an earlier message that I was on Joe Cunningham's tour of the B'way line on 12/16/02, and the maze of BMT corridors was because the BRT/BMT expected a huge surge of transfers once the Canarsie line arrived, where the crush of crowds that then were at Canal St would move north. The "room" was the central location for these expected crowds - which never happened. The is also the reason why the BMT has a mezzanine here - it was originally like 34th & 42nd St stations, but one was added, explaining why there are ramps on both ends and why the park above is raised several feet to accomidate it.
Would you believe that the BMT 49th St. station redo was by famous architect Philip Johnson? As you might guess, it is from the early 1970s, and I think it did replace the horizontal block tiles that covered up the original Dual Contract tile work (perhaps still underneath).
The Lex IRT Wall St. station marks the transition between "cover it all up" (Bowling Green, 49th St), to "maybe we should keep some it" (Hoyt St, IRT 51st St, Astor Pl), to now "lets save what we can, reproduce what we can" (IRT Lex Fulton St., IRT Lex Borough Hall, and all since then).
The transition really started about 1979 when the Landmarks Commission landmarked all the Contract 1 & 2 mosaics. They were finally appreciated after they were all destroyed at Bowling Green. The next station, IRT Lex Wall St. got glazed blue brick but they had to allow the mosaics to poke through, and this encouraged them to fix up downtown entrance area instead of just covering it up like they used to. The next stations done were the first "retros" - IRT Lex Fulton St & Borough Hall - mainly fixing years of damage and extending the original style to the extensions.
Borough Hall's extensions still look like extensions (of two generations):
You are correct - for some reason they left the extension to the east alone at Borough Hall. They got far more comprehensive after that first "retro" effort.
The IRT Lex line going uptown is like a history of station renovations...
late 1970s - Bowling Green "get rid of everything" (even the bases of the columns!)
c. 1980 - Wall St "history peeks through" and makes a "token" appearance.
mid-1980s - Fulton St, "history saved, and repeated" (to the extensions, replacing those ugly aquagreen tile)
1990s - Brooklyn Bridge "lessons learned", and the station is given an historic look.
Late 1990s - 14th Street/Union Sq. "substance & style", where the whole complex is redone and not just retiled.
This has been a really good trend.
23rd Street seems to be one of the last stations that they really messed up in the early 80's before getting smart. The photo below shows what the station looked like in the late 70's. All of this is gone. It's a shame that much of the original station survived into the late 70's and then was removed/covered in a really bad renovation of the fare control areas, which is basically the whole original Contract 1 portion of the station. I was at one time a regular user of that station in the early 90's, and AFIK, only one of those tapestries is still visable with the ceiling bracket, some little 23's along the ceiling, and one 23rd Street name tablet that is in the newstand. Unfortunately the orange tiles they used there look loke they are glued/mortared on, as opposed to the "Wall over the Wall" that they did over the tiles on Broadway. In addition, those little ceiling brackets would have been ripped off. Thankfully they at least didn't ruin the 30's glorified IND-like extensions, or remove the 30's column encasings.
I believe the late 80's was when they finally started getting smart, and started to realize the greatness of what was in the subway. Fulton was used as an example, and I want to add Essex street. A really primitive, and fairly ugly wall, but it was one of the first attempts at recreating mosaics, however crude they may be. Before that, they were happy just to throw a black metal sign up.
What about 23rd/7th and that grey painted platform? LOL.
With orange paint as the edge warning. How could anyone have imagined that that would satisfy ADA?
It predates the ADA, IIRC.
That's one of the only stations on the lower end of West Side line I don't like. Amazingly, it's neighbor at 18th street I find to be one of the nicest renovations. I have no idea what they were thinking with that grey floor.
And in addition to the "substance and style" movement of the late 1990s, they have gone to great pains to recreate the original tablets, friezes and icons wherever they can. And if it's just dirty, they will sandblast the grime right off them (Union Sq - "L") Look at the lovely tablet at the north end of the local tracks at Grand Central station (4/5/6). The only difference is the size of the diamonds, and I would guess they did that on purpose. 5th Ave-60th Street, 33rd St-Park Ave S, Lorimer (L), Cortlandt (N/R/W - that was a 1996 prototype; they've since gotten much fancier), all are examples of this movement.
wayne
Which begs the question: will any new subway stations be made to look like the old stations? Assuming any are built in my lifetime. The "newest" stations on 63rd St. and Archer Ave. were designed in the mid 1980's and stand out almost as much as Bowling Green or 49th St.
I don't think they need to spend renovation money on new stations when older ones need it so much more. To me it would also cross the line between restoring and a fake. There is something to be said for being representative of the time a station is from.
Generally, the "newest" stations redone in an older style tend to be those 1950s & 1960s add-ons, plus the newer IRT Lex 59th St express station, redone in IND style (if I remember correctly - the simplest retro style I guess).
That looks horrible... *frowning* But I know what you mean...
N Bwy
As you might guess, it is from the early 1970s, and I think it did replace the horizontal block tiles that covered up the original Dual Contract tile work (perhaps still underneath).
I'm sure the dual contract tiles are still under there. I'm curious though about if there was the "cement" block tiles at 49th. If there was, they may still be under the orange bricks, and the dual contract tiles are actually under two layers of "tiles" and renovations, like Canal Street station's N/R, and W/Q platforms have.
The "streamlined" efforts actually began in the mid-1950s with the opening of the Grant Ave. station on the A line to link the IND at Euclid Ave. up to the surviving section on the BMT Fulton el for the connection out to the Rockaways. That look became the NYCTA standard for about 15 years, and included the lower level of 59th on the IRT, along with the previously metioned stations and (horrid) extensions Moving Platform already commented on on the Contract 1 IRT stations. IMHO, the 57th-6th looks the best of the group because of its neutral tile color, compared with the green tile used earlier, which makes the stations either darker or moldier-looking. Since that's the way it has always looked, keeping the current tilework at 57th-6th or at Grand wouldn't bother me.
The biggest outrage about the Broadway/Fourth Ave. cinderblock tile replacement was the fact the original work was covered over, though for me at least there was some extra anger in the fact that most of the stations got the blue-and-white treatment, which along with the new R-40M and R-42 subway cars and the repainting of the R-7/9 through R-33ML fleet, seemed to be an attempt by William Ronan to redo the entire system in MTA colors at the expense of putting money into anything else the system needed (the fact that they let the graffiti problem get out of control at the same time only added to my annoyance). Plus, the large blocks and lack of any decorative trim or station lettering just made those BMT stations look boring; that's why I liked the decision to to 49th St. and Broadway in the fire-engine red brick look -- it wasn't the Vickers tiles, but it certainly was more interesting what was done to every other side platform station on the RR line.
The sister station to the 49th St rehab -- Bowling Green on the IRT -- I have mixed feelings about. I wasn't happy they eliminated the original Contract 2 tile, bands and artwork, but with the construction of a completely new platform to serve the uptown trains, 50 percent of what was there was obliterated, so unlike the BMT stations, you can't really go home again and undo what was done. I lean towards leaving that station as is, though they do need to go back and redo Wall Street fully in the "classic" IRT design.
Both Wall Street and 51st Street could easily be redone; as with the BMT "refrigerator" tile, the new brickwork simply covers the old tile.
The biggest outrage about the Broadway/Fourth Ave. cinderblock tile replacement was the fact the original work was covered over, though for me at least there was some extra anger in the fact that most of the stations got the blue-and-white treatment
Yes hopefully the 4th Ave line will one day look like Broadway again. In the meantime, thanks to Wayne's token booth area photos on this site(we'll have to wait for the walls to come down to see the name tablets), here's what we are missing:
I wonder why they did not do Rector on the Broadway Line. As for 49th Street, that is the only one of the group of covered over stations on Broadway that I wouldn't want to see restored. Along with Bowling Green (for the reasons stated already), and I still kind of like the way 51st Street is done.
Maybe some of you guys could help me out on this. I'm almost willing to swear that 49th Street got the 'refrigerator' tile treatment along with the rest of Broadway local stations around 1970-71, and then private funding paid for the re-restoration into its current form around 1974-75.
I seem to remember the station name signs reading '49 St-7 Ave' during the brief 'refigerator' tile period, with black letters on a white background, and the station had the blue & white scheme same as Prospect Ave. & Bay Ridge Ave. do today.
Does anyone else remember this?
I wasn't even born yet but from what I've heard here, 49 St DID in fact have refridgerator tiles prior to its second renovation in 1975.
I'm not sure of its renovation history, but one thing I do know is that I'm one of the very few people who actually likes the way the station looks!
I like it too. Bowling Green is very similar and isn't that bad either. Why wouldn't someone like it? I definately like the soundproof tiles since I am used to those on the subway at home.
I'm one of those 'few' people who like 49 St too.
It's a handsome station, but like Astor Place, it now needs a renovation or at least a new paint job on the roofs.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Count me in.
I just wish the stairs to the street level were a little wider, and there where more of them.
avid
Count me in as another fan of BMT 49 st- 7 av station!
Yup, you are not alone. I really like 49th Street. It's the only situation where I do not want to see the great old mosaics restored. I loved that station even as a kid. At the height of the graffiti, and 70's subway filth, 49th was one of the only clean stations. It is getting a bit worn, but it shouldn't be too much of a project to clean it up, while leaving the orange bricks.
It seems here you are among many.
I am one of that group.
I think that one distingushing feature of 49th Street is that it looks like it has always been that way. It doesn't look like a patch job like 51 Street, Wall Street, the early 70s BMT rehabs (with the booth area unchanged!) or any of the stations with tiles on top of tiles. I think that you either have to repair, restore, and use something consistent (if not identical) for extensions and other layout changes or start from scratch.
As for Bond Street, I like the design but detest the destruction of a Contract 2 station.
As for Bond Street, I like the design but detest the destruction of a Contract 2 station.
Where?
I realize now you mean Hoyt Street.
It's too bad Bond Street doesn't intersect with 7th Street.
If there really was a Bond Street station on the NY subway it would give me another duplicate station name with the London Underground!
Yeah. Sorry. I was at work doing three things at once.
How does it go? 5th, 4th, 3rd, Nevins, Bond, Hoyt. Yes. The 0th Avenue station of the IRT, in the basement of A&S. :) And the tallest station is -1 Avenue & 9th Street. Ah, the City of Brooklyn street grid. At least the streets are straight.
Is there a building at 7 Bond Street?
Are you sure it's 9th Street and not WEST 9th Street? Look at the street signs in the area.
I'm one too. I remember the days when 49th St was the best looking station in the system.
49th / 7th and Bowling Green were chosen to have the red brick scheme, in part, to test out noise abatement materials in the renovation of subway stations. This experiment was not continued, probably due to the 70's fiscal crisis.
I don't think 49th / 7th had the refrigerator tiles first. It wouldn't make sense for the station to have undergone 2 renovations so close together.
--Mark
I also heard that 50th Street on the IRT was also supposed to get the "49th Street" treatmen, but the 70's fiscal crisis ended that.
I posted that information a number of months ago. 50th Street was supposed to be done around the same time 49th Street got done, but it didn't happen (I don't have any information as to the reason, but fiscal problems of the mid-1970s can't be ruled out).
David
That's where I must've heard about that!
What do the mosaics say under the tiling? Does it indeed say "49th Street-7th Avenue"?
Why would they include 7th Avenue in the naming?
Why wouldn't they? After Times Square, the train goes up 7th Avenue. Someone not familiar with the subway system might assume the station would exit at Broadway.
Broadway and 7th Avenue are a few feet away at that point. Does it really make a difference?
Incidentally, are the BMT and nearby IRT stations at the same level? If a few walls were torn down, could the NB IRT and SB BMT share a wide island platform? I'd make use of that cross-platform transfer if it were available.
I doubt it. I don't think the N, Q, R, and W could exchange streets of operation with the 1, 2, 3, and 9 if they were on the same level underground.
For the 7th Avenue lines to wind up on Broadway and the Broadway lines to wind up on 7th Avenue, the IRT and BMT would have to be on different levels.
No they wouldn't. Broadway and 7th Avenue cross in the 40's. By switching avenues of operation, the two lines conveniently avoid crossing paths.
Look at traffic patterns upstairs: Broadway flows into 7th and 7th flows into Broadway (with an exit back to 7th). Same idea.
I think you may have something here. I know you walk right up to street level from 49th Street, I've done that many times. THe same with 50th Street. So they may very well be on the same level, or at least within a few feet.
I think the BMT platform might be a step or two lower than the IRT platform in that area -- not an insurmountable problem -- but while the south end of the BMT 49th St. platform is pretty much in Times Square, the shorter IRT 1/9 platform really doesn't begin until the streets are split apart, somwhere between 48th and 49th Streets.
So you probably could connect the two platforms, but they would have to go under a building, and connecting them simply through a wide corridor would be a waste of money, with the Times Square transfer a few blocks south and no underpasses at the local stations to the uptown BMT trains or downtown IRT locals.
Actually, the south end of the IRT station is between 49th and 50th.
It certainly wouldn't be an essential connection, but I would personally find it convenient. I often find myself transferring from a SB N/R/W to a NB 1/9 at Times Square and I wouldn't mind avoiding the ups and downs (and the two extra stops).
If there can be a transfer from the A, C and E to the 2 and 3 at Chambers/Park Place and then Fulton/Broadway/Nassau, then I think there could be a good case for a transfer between the N, R and W at 49th to the 1 and 9 at 50th.
This post brings me to asking a question about the BMT tracks that travel towards 42nd Street.
What I notice is that the Express tracks elevates and the local tracks decreases in elevation. There's also a slight curve in the 42nd Street station.
With the #1 line.. I'm sure everyone knows this line connects to the shuttle... You can see it from the northbound local... There's also a sharp curve... (The shuttle happens to be above all the lines) Maybe the 1,2,3,9 lines actually decreases in elevation at this point when entering 42nd Street station.
(N,Q,R,Q) Somehow, between 46/5 street and 44/3 street... the local tracks might dipping underneath the express tracks to make room for the 7th Avenue lines.. I don't know.. but it does appear that there isn't enough room to run 8 tracks in this area.
But maybe someone who has an engineering background can piece this together for me..
N Bwy vs 7th Avenue
Check the tunnel roof line on the downtown BMT local track north of Times Square -- if there's very little clearance, then the uptown IRT local track could be running right above it between 43rd and 45th Streets.
(BTW -- and semi-off topic -- there have been threads about the loudest stations on the board before, but the north (west) end of Times Square on the shuttle platform was probably right up there with Union Square and South Ferry on the IRT back when it was still part of the Contract 1 main line and a local stop, and those High V express trains came around the corner from 42nd St. onto Broadway at full tilt. Had to be really screetchy.)
I actually know some of the answer to this because I was on Joe Cunningham's tour of the BMT Broadway line on 12/16/02!
First, where 7th & Bway meet it is not wide enough for 8 tracks to fit side by side, so the downtown local track dips below the IRT uptown local.
Also, the 2 BMT express tracks split slightly north of Times Sq station to go around the IRT underpass that connected the uptown & downtown local (now shuttle) platform.
Hope this is helpful. There are lots of oddities on the Broadway line.
I don't know if I'm supposed to do this because it isn't my photo, but it's the only photo I've ever seen of 49th Street. I've never found one online anywhere. I'll take it down after a day or two. It's from Lee Stookey's book "Subway Ceramics". I don't know if it's still in print. I bought it about 10 years ago at the Transit Museum for about $15.00. It's well worth the money. It's short, but to the point and gives a brief history of the subway decoration, and lots of color photos of mosaics, etc and a description of why certain pictures are at certain stations (why beavers at Astor, eagles at 33rd, house at Union Square, etc).
So here it is for those of you who have never seen a photo of the real 49th Street, I though you all may be interested...and get the book it's great! Now if only someone can come up with a photo of the "Broadway" mosaics at Canal Q/W platform. Do any of the older guys remember the station from before the cement block tiles went up there? Was the name already Canal, and they had "Broadway" covered like at Mott-Haven?
I know why Beavers at Astor and house at Union Square (do you mean the Broadway station?), but why eagles at 33rd?
According to Stookey's book, there was a 71st Regiment Armory that stood above the station. In 1902 the original building burned down, and was replaced at the same time the suwbway was built. The replacement building is also gone now. Heins and LaFarge chose the eagle because of the armory. On the northbound platform there is a mosaic eagle, that replaced a damaged original one.
Since that book was written they've found these same eagles at the Union Sq. and Brooklyn Bridge stations on the unused local platforms (The Union Sq. ones can be viewed on the new walkway by the downtown IRT local).
So perhaps we don't know why they used eagles at 33rd....
I've been on the Brooklyn Bridge Abandoned platform:
They must've used the same mold on these at BB, the ones at 33rd, and the ones that they pulled up from the abandoned platforms, and put on the walkway at Union Square.
The reason for 33rd is definitely the Armory. I don't know why they were used at US or BB.
A couple of weeks ago, I asked a question about why graffiti 'artists' do what they do. What is their philosophy? Is it...
--To be purely destructive; since their lives are miserable, they are striking out against an easy target.
--To express artistic opportunities that are denied them. To be honest, some of the graffiti from the mid-70s-mid-80s showed some artistic potential; maybe these guys thought that if they could get their work out there, maybe they'd get noticed. (Keith Haring got his start by making chalk marks on black blank advertising spaces that were awaiting ads in the subway.)
--As a requirement for gang activity?
I started a thread on it a couple of weeks ago, but was disappointed to see it go off in a tangent.
Perhaps I should have been a criminologist; I am always interested in what motivates a John Taylor, say, to kill several witnesses in a Wendy's robbery, He had to know that New York now has a death penalty and a crime like his would put him on death row if he were convicted. Or, he might not have cared. Why not?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I would say that most subway graffiti vandals these days are motivated by nothing other than sheer destructiveness. Okay, there was some semi-artistic graffiti, in other words graffiti that might have had an "expressive" motivation, back in the 1970's and 1980's, but that's long gone. Almost all current graffiti is childish junk. Of course, I'd also suspect that the average I.Q. score of today's graffiti vandals in perilously close to room-temperature levels, so expecting any artistry would be unreasonable.
In the previous thread I made a snide remark about a book which, since buying it, I have found to be an eye-opener. It's called "Aerosol Kingdom", about the taggers of the eighties and what's happened to some of them, and they're upset both by the lack of effort and decline in a sense of apprenticeship and tradition AND by the art world having made a big deal out of it without understanding what was going on.
It was illegal and was meant to spoil "the system," but it also required that you adhere to certain philosophies, including artistic, and keep doing better, and it was inclusive. Pretty interesting perspective. No excuses -- these guys and gals didn't want it legalized -- they wanted to see THEIR NAMES rolling into Wall Street station.
It was illegal and was meant to spoil "the system," but it also required that you adhere to certain philosophies, including artistic, and keep doing better, and it was inclusive. Pretty interesting perspective. No excuses -- these guys and gals didn't want it legalized -- they wanted to see THEIR NAMES rolling into Wall Street station.
That pretty much sums it up. For an excellent look into the underground graffiti / early hip-hop culture of the 1980's, I'd highly reccomend "Bomb the Suburbs" by William Upski Wimsatt. (Published, appropriately enough, by Chicago-based Subway and Elevated Press Co.) The book is probably out of print now, but there still may be copies floating around the more underground-themed bookstores in NYC and Chicago. He also has a follow-up book, "No More Prisons" that also may be of interest.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
There are two books that the NYC taggers "approve" of (unlike Norman Mailer's book, which was the first out of the chute, and others): Subway Art (Cooper & Chalfant) and Spraycan Art (Chalfant & Prigoff). Aerosol Kingdom is the first to get into the social and ethnic end. They don't refer to Bomb the Suburbs but it sounds right up their alley; I'll check it out. Thanks, David. Keep your paint thawed.
Bomb the Suburbs is still in print - Amazon can ship in in less than 24 hours according to their site.
Interesting read even if you're not an anarchist.
'Flick your Bic' into an aerosol. Was the cost of damages done by 'Cost' and Revs' really of artistic value....one of them is dead now. I do every kind of inspection and special inpection on Redbirds and Bombardier R142s.......carbody work (which is usually assigned to seniors) on R142s is the easiest but for me....stinks.
Steel tooling is used to scratch the window mylars, the FibreGlas seating and stainless steel door pilasters....not to mention the Formica wall panels. These scum have intents to leave their 'tags' behind.........a 'true work of art' to be remembered is to see their butts fried on the third rail. 'Here remains the remains of Pignose 241....fried in the yard trying to leave his mark. RIP.'
CI Peter is OnTheJuice.....big bug adjuticates ALL sins!!!
Nobody, but nobody, wants anything to do with that scratchitti chit. The original taggers weren't even into civil disobedience (going honorably to jail) so it's kind of a stretch even to talk about them making any "contribution." But NOBODY thinks these jackasses nowadays are doing anything but wrecking plexiglas and plastic.
Graffiti and gangs aren't really related as you'd probably think. Those who do the complex, great looking graf usually just focus on the art. I know a group of writers that have gone legit and they do their work for hire, complete with phone # and email address on their work. They have giganitc murals that covers whole sides of buildings and walls. Even before they went legal it was all about fun, getting noticed, and the thrill of doing their art without getting caught. The good artists definately aren't miserable people, their work takes a lot of planning and dedication, and they are very proud of what they do.
Two other non-legit artists that I "know" only through seeing their work are out there to get people to see their names. Their stuff appears on water towers, billboards, abandoned buildings, and wherever gets the most visibility. For them, it's about fame.
On the other hand, the crappy scribble shit that makes up 90% of all graf are mostly likely done by stupid kids who are bored. The crappier the graf, the stupider the artist. The impressive work is done by very smart people.
Agreed. And the true "artists" feel nothing but contempt for the posers and wannabes who put "throw-ups" and illegible scrawls all over the place.
I actually really enjoy the large, artful murals that have some creativity to them. I certainly wouldn't condone covering a subway car with that stuff, but for an otherwise empty and wasted surface such as the blank brick wall of an abandoned building, I say go for it. The stuff these guys create is a hell of a lot more interesting to look at than, well, a blank brick wall on an abandoned building.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Graffiti, as archeologists know, is about as old as writing implements.
The original intent of writing on NYC subway trains (in the modern "gaffiti era") was a sort of narcissistic game--you tagged as many trains as you could with a not-neccessarily-artistic, but visible, writing, typically consisting of a nickname and your street or house number. I believe one of the first was TAKI183. Taki the nickname, living on 183rd Street.
Then you and your buds hung out on a platform and counted the number of times your tag went by in a given time span. Sort of like trainspotting.
Later the more typical vandalistic impulse moved in. Whichever, they're efforts to make an impression on the world, even if a negative one.
IIRC, the first line to be tagged was the 1, the last the 7.
Yesterday, on a trip to JFK INTL, as wedrove along Sunrise Hiway, I noticed a metal strip bolted to the third Rail.
It appeared to be aluminum. What is its purpose?
Is it to conduct the current with less resistance, less line drop?
It was on the side of the third rail, Not the top!
I noticed similar bi-metal configurations on the Rockaway branch near Aquaduct/No.Conduit Station.
avid
I was refering to the L.I.R.R. near Lynbrook.
avid
In some place in the subway they have a plate on one side of the thrid rail to prevent you from hitting it acedently.
Yeah, and I guess to shield from arcing.
What I speak of is bolted to the side of the third rail.
avid
What you are seeing is a "sandwich style" third rail that is composed of layers of metal, and is used to replace older sections as part of ongoing right of way maintenance. Just a newer type of third rail, that's all.
On London Underground aluminium conductor rails are now used.
Simon
Swindon UK
I think the metal strip is a resistance unit that is used to heat the third rail and keep it free of ice and snow. They have heaters on PATCO and I'll check how they compare.
It improves the electrical conductivity of the third rail. Each metal has a conductivity ability. Gold is best, but too expensive. Copper is good, but too soft and too costly also. So, aluminum is a good compromise and better than the steel of regular third rail.
Does anyone know the original number of Car #51050 used in the movie Money Train?
Regards,
Trevor Logan
These lions will roar with the snore of those seeking warmth and shelter as the Alberta Clipper heads south as it does each year late January and early February.
Perhaps Todd can explain this Phenomenumnanum.
As I understand it its the time lag from the darkest days above the Northpole when the cold air drifts south.
Todd, help out here, please.
avid
More fodder for WeatherTalk...
Alberta clippers are simply small storms that move towards the northeastern US from the vicinity of Alberta province, Canada. These storms are following the northern branch of the jet stream, which often takes up a "route" such as this during the winter. The reason for this is much too long and complicated to describe on SubTalk. I suggest those interested find a good general-population weather book. The "USA Today Weather Book," Jack Williams, editor, is one good example. (I was a contributor to the first edition.)
There is a GO in effect. Every other Alberta Clipper will turned back in Toronto.
--Mark
A little off-topic but fascinating nonetheless:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/12/nyregion/12FEAT.html
Actually on-topic.
Note that the water tunnel costs under $100 million per mile.
This clearly illustrates that there are far more expensive things in life than boring a tunnel. I wish someone here could actually provide a real breakdown of where the money goes in an expensive proposed new transportation project. I'd love to see something more than just generalities that stations and signaling are really expensive.
Also, the low cost of tunnel boring would imply that some express routes could be built fairly cheaply relative to the miles required. For example, that the cost of 2 new tracks bored deep under the LIRR would be mostly in the connections to the QB line at either end.
"This clearly illustrates that there are far more expensive things in life than boring a tunnel. I wish someone here could actually provide a real breakdown of where the money goes in an expensive proposed new transportation project. I'd love to see something more than just generalities that stations and signaling are really expensive. "
If you were watching the contract announcements by the MTA for the East Side Access project, you would have seen contracts let for tunnel boring which add up to about $150 million. This figure excludes track, switches, signalling, emergency exits, ventilation plants, stations etc.
As the project moves forward, check the procurement announcement site at www.mta.info to see how the costs break down. For example, another contract to do environ. mitigation in a yard they want to use cost $4 million. This was let just within the last couple of months.
"Also, the low cost of tunnel boring would imply that some express routes could be built fairly cheaply relative to the miles required."
True statement.
"For example, that the cost of 2 new tracks bored deep under the LIRR would be mostly in the connections to the QB line at either end."
Yes, but in order to make those connections MTA is actually digging several miles of tunnel. Some of it will be bored, so as not to disturb main line tracks above the tunnels; some will be open-ditch dug. This project is already underway.
"I wish someone here could actually provide a real breakdown of where the money goes in an expensive proposed new transportation project. I'd love to see something more than just generalities that stations and signaling are really expensive."
I've just shown you how to do that. Watch the procurement site over time, and add up the contracts as they are announced. Post the data here, or build a table and write a feature for the subway.org site.
Thanks for your suggestions. They are definitely a good way of understanding a project's costs, but only in retrospect.
However, someone must have a reason for thinking the SAS will cost about $12 billion, and have some rough idea of what the pieces are. It would be interesting to see that thinking in advance. Similarly, there must be very good reasons for thinking that EAS is overrunning.
But I suspect the people who have those thoughts don't post here.
That's odd, I didn't think that rock bore tunnelers were called sandhogs. Only pressurized shield underwater tunnelers.
I've had a few of them lately.
First, I'm at Chambers St. and notice six tracks instead of four, with a curtain wall separating two of them from the other four. Then a train of slants pulls in, and it's an E train! That's OK, I remember seeing slants on the E when they were new. Here's the kicker: these slants had a blue stripe along the side, and not the thin blue band, either. It was a full-width, R-42/44/46 style blue band. Finally, graffiti had reared its repulsive head on these cars. One thing hadn't changed - Chambers St. looked just as awful as it does in reality.
In the second dream, I'm transferring to the J and see that it's running as a shuttle from Broadway Junction to Cypress Hills (must have been thinking of Karl B). When I got to the platform, what do I see but a train of R-7/9s! The controls had been moved to the left side of the lead motor, and a woman was running the train (no, it wasn't bingbong). The next thing I knew, I was heading back to Broadway Junction - on a train of BMT standards! Only this time I wasn't taken aback the way I used to be. Sure enough, the train went "tchhhhhhhhhhhhhhh" just as it came to a full stop, just as I remember those cars.
What can I say - I was long overdue for a subway dream.:)
First, I'm at Chambers St.
Hold it right there! That's not a dream, that's a nightmare!
You're going to need to form a hat out of aluminum, and ground it to the nearest radiator. I suspect Heypaul's been playing his Outer Limits tapes again. :)
One thing hadn't changed - Chambers St. looked just as awful as it does in reality.
I don't think an improved Chambers Street could be dreamed up :)
--Mark
I actually had a dream once that Chambers St. had been renovated and positively sparkled. Notice I didn't say anything about going back in time to 1913.
Today's Boston Globe has an article in the Real Estate Section (January 12, 2003), titled "Growth Engines: newest rail lines helping to boost property values." On the home page of http://www.boston.com this article is linked as "The Value of a T stop." Much of the article is about growth around Davis Square, Somerville, in the 20 years since the arrival of the Red Line. I realize this happened to Flatbush and Nostrand eighty years ago, but we New Yorkers (and Jerseyans) should be able to identify other places where rapid rail transit would earn ridership and help the neighbors. I note that the examples in this article do not mention light rail crawling along at 8 m.p.h. Joe McMahon
Today's Boston Globe has an article in the Real Estate Section (January 12, 2003), titled "Growth Engines: newest rail lines helping to boost property values." On the home page of http://www.boston.com this article is linked as "The Value of a T stop." Much of the article is about growth around Davis Square, Somerville, in the 20 years since the arrival of the Red Line. I realize this happened to Flatbush and Nostrand eighty years ago, but we New Yorkers (and Jerseyans) should be able to identify other places where rapid rail transit would earn ridership and help the neighbors. I note that the examples in this article do not mention light rail crawling along at 8 m.p.h. Joe McMahon
Nice article, it should be manadatory reading for all anti-transit types.
In case anyone else had trouble finding this article, here's a direct link:
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/012/realestate/Growth_engines+.shtml
I read somewhere that this station was closed because of declining ridership due to a competing rapid transit line.
What line was Bellaire on and what rapid transit line could this have been referring to?
Bellaire IIRC was one of the stations on the LIRR Main Line east of Jamaica. I don't think it had any competation from rapid transit. It did have a declaining ridership problem.
Aren't you thinking of Bellerose? And that station is still in use.
No, he's got it right. The station WAS Belleaire. Read my earlier post. :-)
So what was the competing rapid transit line. Do the "A" Rock Beach or Far Rock lines run anywhere nearby?
Nearest subway in that area is the E and J lines at Jamaica Center.
Which didn't exist at the time. The closest station was 168th Street on the J, or 179th Street on the E/F.
Bellaire I think was between Jamaica and Bellerose. OTOH I don't have my notes and maps with me to look it up.
Bellaire was located on the LIRR Main Line between Hollis and Queens Village stations, just south of Jamaica Ave. at about 208th St. There is still some structural evidence on both sides of the right of way, west of the Hempstead Ave. underpass.
The entrance to Bellaire station was via stairs at 211th Street.
wayne
Belleaire was on the LIRR's Hempstead Branch. The station itself was at 212th Street and 99th Avenue. It was closed because parallel bus service of Jamaica Buses ran on Jamaica Avenue one block north of the station, as it does to this day. The two nearest stations to the Belleaire station are Queens Village (my home stop) and Hollis, both of which enjoy good ridership levels.
Bellaire closed not just because of the Jamaica Buses Q110 route, but also the large number of NYCTA Queens Division routes in the immediate neighborhood that provide frequent service to subways in Jamaica - Q2 on Hollis Ave.; Q1, Q36, Q43 on Hillisde Avenue. And the very close proximity to the stations at Hollis and Queens Village made Bellaire redundant as well.
Ironically, the Q1, Q27, Q36,AND Q83 ALL feed the Queens Village station quite well. Unitickets take Queens bus passengers into Manhattan via the LIRR. The incentive is that the LIRR takes 20 minutes off their commute vs. a bus/subway commute. The only drawback is that it costs about $20 per week more.
From Jamaica eastbound:
Union Hall Street
Hillside
Hollis
Bellaire
Queens Village
Bellrose
Floral Park
... and on to Hempstead
It think it was closed in 1957 or 58.
It think it was closed in 1957 or 58.
NO!
You are not even close. It was closed in 1972.
...is a quote from http://www.njtransit.com/an_capitalprojects_project006.shtm.
It's early 2003 now, so when will it open? I might actually go to Philly, taking this route from Trenton in one of two-direction (R7 the other way, of course).
So I guess the line will open between now and April.
You might want to check the Railroad.net NJ Light Rail forum, according to that, it won't be before june or july 2003. The date of opening appears way down the page, like the 100th or so post. I'm really looking forward to the line, it'd be nice to see the Gloucster County line built as well, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.
According to a small article in the Thursday Jan 16 Inquirer, the current target is late summer or fall.
Well, if your the people looking to spend all the money budgeted for the WTC area renovation project, according to today's Daily News, you include "downtown" to mean anything out to JFK.
Considering the WTC 1 and 2 were only insured for $3.5 billion (or at least that's all Larry Silverstein apparently is going to get), the Port Auhority's plan to spend rughly $2 billion of the $4.5 on its own underground transit hub and new PATH station is pretty amazing. As for the Bloomberg's JFK connection and the loopy Brookfield Properties-LIRR-Cranberry tunnel plan mentioned in the story, if you're going to extend the federal funds that far away from the WTC, you might as well toss in a Second Ave. subway line with a connection to Nassau Street. That would serve a hell of a lot more people per day working in Lower Manhattan than either of those other plans would.
Also, the entire Ground Zero area has been designated as a "Superfund" site, so cleanup and re-levelling is being picked up by the federal government. Not to mention federal UMTA money for the daylighting and reconstruction of 1800' of the 1/9 lines. Now everybody wants a finger in the pie. What the DN article fails to say, however, is where's the funding for integrated infrastructure repairs coming from? That is, where is the money to rebuild what was previously there. The PATH term under the WTC was designed to feed and complement the A,C,E,N,R,1,2,3,and 9 lines. It also supported the shopping mall. In other words all this INFRASTRUCTURE was properly INTEGRATED.
BTW, EACH of WTC 1 and 2 were insured for $3.5B. Silverstein was correct in asking for $7B payout, but his insurers have better lawyers. I believe that even though 9/11 was a co-ordinated attack, each plane hit a separate target. 2 planes hitting 2 buildings at 2 separate times= 2 incidents. Therefore $7 billion full coverage payout is correct. My point in all this is that Silverstein, had he gotten all this money, almost certainly would have contributed some of it to transit projects...
I agree Silverstein got screwed at least in the inital judgement (it's still on appeal). My main concern coming from the story is the PA's $2 billion or so expense just for the underground area, which in terms of funding is only tangentally connected with the MTA's plans for their downtown transit hub on B'way between Fulton and John. For $2 billion it sound suspiciously as though the dedicated mass transit funds will end up funding the entire new foundation of whatever's built there, while other funds that would normally go into construction such a space will be used for the aboveground buildings.
Also, while Bloomberg's rail plan might be an enticement to those who the city will be wooing to move or remain in the downtown area, it also sounds like in terms of key priorities for downtown, the mayor is thinking more about what his friends in the business world's upper echilons need, above what could best benefit the city as a whole. If you're seriuosly considering using some of the federal funds to built a 10-mile line, building one up Second Ave. with connections to the Bronx and Brooklyn via Nassau or even Water Street makes more sense than a high speed line from the WTC to JFK.
A Water Street/South Ferry hub with a direct line up Second Avenue would be feasible, but so too the Nassau/John Street plan, if retail and office occupancy supports it. All possible Lower Manhattan construction depends not so much on Bloomberg and his corporate cronies, but on high occupancy/leasing rates and whether there is enough transit to make Lower Manhattan attractive to businesses again.
How about revitalizing Lower Manhattan by (finally) connecting SIRT to the R line at 95th Street by tunnelling under the harbor? This should have been done in 1929, and I don't see why funding can't be made for it today.
We bounced the SI connection around on the board a couple of years ago, when the harbor rail tunnel idea was first proposed by Congressman Nadler and a few others wanting to revive the Brooklyn waterfront in the Bush Terminal area.
The best chance for it would be as part of a bi-level tunnel a la 63rd St., with the freight rail using the existing bridge to get from New Jersey to SI and then coming around (and under) Richmond Terrace to either St. George or on to Clifton, where it could connect up to the NY&A while the subway level hooked up with the R (or even the express tracks and the N, if the tunnel came into Brooklyn around 65th St.). But the freight rail plan and the deep harbor port for the superfreighters along the Brooklyn waterfront would have to get approval first, because a stand-alone passenger tunnel would face major cost/benefit questions while the funds already have been OKed for the freight tunnel study (and both would face NIMBY opposition, no matter what happened).
Y'know, if Robert Moses had permitted the subway/SIRT to run on the VZ Bridge as it was designed to in 1961, we'd be there already. More historical irony, if you like that sort of thing. The original plans for the bridge had the tracks on the lower deck.
The original plans for the bridge had the tracks on the lower deck.
Where do you get this information? Hearsay and conjecture don't count.
Read "New York in The Sixties" which is available at the GCT Transit Museum Store now.
>>> EACH of WTC 1 and 2 were insured for $3.5B. Silverstein was correct in asking for $7B payout, but his insurers have better lawyers. I believe that even though 9/11 was a co-ordinated attack, each plane hit a separate target. 2 planes hitting 2 buildings at 2 separate times= 2 incidents <<<
It is not really that clear. If one building had been in Brooklyn, clearly it would be two incidents. But the two towers together were the WTC and there was apparantly a cap on total damagaes from one incident to both buildings.
Suppose a gang was extorting protection money from shop owners, and sent someone to a china shop with a machine gun which he sprayed all around the room hitting and breaking 100 valuable items. Each bullet would have hit a separate object at slightly different times, but the insurance company would consider it one incident. The same result if one gangster entered with a shotgun and blasted away at one side of the shop, and a few minutes later while the employees were cleaning up the debris a second gangster with a shotgun appeared and blasted the other side of the shop.
These are the analogies that the insurers would put forward, and it is a close question.
Tom
EACH of WTC 1 and 2 were insured for $3.5B. Silverstein was correct in asking for $7B payout, but his insurers have better lawyers. I believe that even though 9/11 was a co-ordinated attack, each plane hit a separate target. 2 planes hitting 2 buildings at 2 separate times= 2 incidents
It is not really that clear. If one building had been in Brooklyn, clearly it would be two incidents. But the two towers together were the WTC and there was apparantly a cap on total damagaes from one incident to both buildings.
One thing that the insurance companies are claiming is that because the towers shared a common foundation, the collapse of just one would have rendered the other unstable and unusable.
Not so fast. The firehouse of Engine 10/Ladder 10 directly abuts Ground Zero. It sits on the WTC Plaza and was built by the city with the WTC when the towers went up. It's still in service today, having missed just six days after 9/11. Whether WTC 2 would have been structurally sound following the collapse of WTC 1 (assuming no second plane) is a question for structural engineers, not insurance companies.
>>> Whether WTC 2 would have been structurally sound following the collapse of WTC 1 (assuming no second plane) is a question for structural engineers, not insurance companies. <<<
But the question of what the insurance policy covered was an attempt to determine what the parties expected would be covered at the time they entered into the contract. That is and was a question for the courts. Without knowing the exact wording of the policy and the other evidence presented to the court, it is rather difficult to second guess the decision (which will be the job of the appellate court).
Tom
"But the question of what the insurance policy covered was an attempt to determine what the parties expected would be covered at the time they entered into the contract..."
Actually, the problem is even deeper than that. There was no insurance contract -- only a "binder" which was not completely developed as far as certain terms (including the definition of an occurrence -- which is how the one event or two issue is decided). Certain insurers were able to produce some evidence that their negotiations had proceeded to the point that the definition of "occurrence" was agreed upon and negotiations had moved to other issues. These were the insurers for which Silversteins case was tossed out quickly.
Not so fast. The firehouse of Engine 10/Ladder 10 directly abuts Ground Zero. It sits on the WTC Plaza and was built by the city with the WTC when the towers went up. It's still in service today, having missed just six days after 9/11. Whether WTC 2 would have been structurally sound following the collapse of WTC 1 (assuming no second plane) is a question for structural engineers, not insurance companies.
The Ten/Ten firehouse is close to Ground Zero, but was not built atop the WTC foundation (foundation, in this sense, having meant the underground concourse levels).
While one tower's survival following the other's fall is an engineering question, it will probably be decided by the courts, with reliance on the testimony of engineers hired by both sides (and not working for free, needless to say).
"While one tower's survival following the other's fall is an engineering question, it will probably be decided by the courts, with reliance on the testimony of engineers hired by both sides (and not working for free, needless to say)."
True. However, it does strike me as a dubious claim by the insurance companies. The vast majority of the foundation of 6 WTC, which closely abutted 1 WTC, remains intact today.
While one tower's survival following the other's fall is an engineering question, it will probably be decided by the courts, with reliance on the testimony of engineers hired by both sides (and not working for free, needless to say).
True. However, it does strike me as a dubious claim by the insurance companies. The vast majority of the foundation of 6 WTC, which closely abutted 1 WTC, remains intact today.
Maybe so, but the foundation under the former 6 WTC isn't supporting the weight of a 110-story skyscraper. Insurance companies being the way they are, they're not going to give up without a struggle. I would imagine that the litigation will end up lasting for several years.
"the foundation under the former 6 WTC isn't supporting the weight of a 110-story skyscraper"
And therefore wasn't built as strongly as the foundations of 1 and 2 WTC.
But you're right, courts will decide and it could take a while.
Again, speculating on something that others know and lawyers will decide (two different things) -- but aren't we here for the fun of speculating? -- the way those double-tube towers were built, Tower Two, if not attacked, would have absorbed the kind of debris, say, as the World Financial Center. I.e., way less than an airplane and with no fire. Therefore, no structural compromise. Tearing a hole in the skin did little damage to the towers -- it was the melting of the floors that collapsed them. Structurally maybe it really was "across the street."
"Tower Two, if not attacked, would have absorbed the kind of debris, say, as the World Financial Center."
The collapse of either tower would have left a sizable crater around the site of that tower. Probably the other tower would have sustained significantly more damage than the WFC or the Verizon building did.
But that's not the same as total destruction of the other tower. The north tower remained standing quite nicely after the south tower collapsed, unfortunately to such a good extent that many rescue workers in the north tower didn't realize their peril.
I think the best comparison is 6 WTC. It had fire damage, but the underlying structure remains sound even today. If one WTC tower had not been hit but had the kind of fire 6 WTC did, I think the Fire Dept would have been able to limit the damage.
WTC 7 was across Vesey Street from the towers, and did not collapse until 1722 on 9/11. Its insurer has paid out the full coverage of the policy, as reported recently in the Times, even though no aircraft struck the building. The insurer rightly decided that damage to 7 WTC was caused by an attack ON THE ADJACENT PROPERTY, and therefore the collapse of 7 WTC was a SEPARATE incident. You're right, it is a very close question, but as the above shows, the principle holds.
>>> WTC 7 was across Vesey Street from the towers, and did not collapse until 1722 on 9/11. Its insurer has paid out the full coverage of the policy, as reported recently in the Times, even though no aircraft struck the building. The insurer rightly decided that damage to 7 WTC was caused by an attack ON THE ADJACENT PROPERTY, and therefore the collapse of 7 WTC was a SEPARATE incident <<<
Are we perhaps comparing apples and oranges? Was WTC 7 insured under the same policy as the towers? Each insurance policy stands on its own. If a different policy was in effect for WTC 7, then when that building collapsed the insurer paid the full policy coverage for that buiding. Whether or not it was a separate incident had nothing to do with it. WTC 7 had nothing to do with the policy covering the towers. If the towers had different policies on each tower, they each would have paid the full limits. But there was only one policy for both towers. I am sure that insurer is saying that it has paid the full coverage of that policy too. The real question was how much that full coverage was (I assume a clause capping damages for any one incident at $3.7 billion was included).
Tom
"Was WTC 7 insured under the same policy as the towers?"
No. Silverstein had already owned 7 WTC outright for a long time before signing the lease on the the remainder of the WTC in the summer of 2001.
I read the Daily News and I saw that article. Yes, they should really consider using that money to start building a 2 Av subway rather than the plan for a LIRR connection to lower Manhattan via Cranberry St on the A and C, that would be a waste. By starting to build the SAS, it could call for a rebuilding of Chambers St on the Nassau line for 2 Av trains to terminate there, making it a booming terminal.
They also considered using the old LIRR ROW for a revamped train to the plane and they said the J line could be used a a super express but they said it would require miles of new track.
Sorry, I can't come up with a message for it, but I think it's a cool topic.
I like to think of 76 Street as a symbol of lines planned for the IND but never built.
Its a trademark of Subtalk, what more can you say, people gripe about it vut yet it still gets lots of responses, which makes it such a hot topic.
It's obviously the ghost of subways never to be, which haunts the abandoned depths of the station.
It's obviously the ghost of subways never to be, which haunts the abandoned depths of the station.
It's obviously the ghost of subways never to be, which haunts the abandoned depths of the station.
Please ignore 2/3 of my triple post. Each time I got an error message, so I just kept trying. Sorry.
This could be the nickname for all urban legend stations that were never officially planned but which neighborhood residents claim were about to be built. In Jersey City the locals in the vicinity of Brunswick & Columbus swear the H & M was about to open a station at this intersection but the Depression came along. I'm sure our Webmaster wouldn't have moved to Hoboken if it existed.
I should clarify: I do not think that 76th Street is a cool topic, I think it has been overdone, and UNDESERVEDLY so. Basically I like the pun I made here.
I am not familiar with the service patterns on these old BMT trains. How did they run and when (time of day, not time of century)?
Generally they ran only during the height of each rush hour. The 4th Ave one ran from 95th St, up the 4th Ave. express, over the south side of the bridge and down Nassau St. The Brighton one ran local from CI to Kings Highway, express to Dekalb Ave, then through the tunnel and up Nassau.
How did the trains return once arriving at Nassau?
The service patterns changed near the end as Chris described, but for most years both the 4th Avenue and Brighton Special ran via bridge, south through Nassau Street and via tunnel back to Brooklyn.
Morning return patterns varied but Brightons either ran light or returned as Brighton trains, picking up passengers starting at DeKalb. IIRC, 4th Avenue-Nassaus usually returned as West End Locals.
Above c.1960. As I said, patterns varied.
When the Culver ran to Nassau Street the rush hour pattern was for Culvers to run Bridge-Nassau-Tunnel and West End Short Line trains ran Tunnel-Nassau-Bridge. These two carried passengers for their entire route.
Damn confusing. Imagine such a service pattern today.
I don't see a reference to the banker's special's from Brighton and Fort HAMilton.
Well, he was just showing you a piece of an old BMT map (20's or 30's, I'd say) with Nassau St. rush hour service (the so-called Banker's Specials. He wasn't showing you every single instance of Banker's Specials-you know about the brown R from 95th to Chambers? That's one also.
was in flatbush today 4:30 pm no trains because of accident on brooklyn branch. lirr sent everyone to penn
I was on the 5:14 PM From Penn Station. Connected with Brooklyn train at Jamaica. The connection was about 6 minutes late. It couldn't have been too serious. Nothing was said on the train.......
They used Low-V work cars, am I correct?
Correct! Some of the oldest Lo-Vs which dated back to 1916, lasted well into the early 80s.
-Stef
Yes, you are. E44/E45, the welding cars for derailments, and revenue collector were retired R12s, some from 3rd Avenue. Most of them were running until about 1990 or a little later, when the current R21/22 collector cars were bebuilt by 207 OH shop. The original CWR trainset was motorized R21/22 cars retired from White Plains Fleet. Before SMEE cars were used for work service, Low-Vs were used for snow plows, rider cars, and most work service, since they could be run anywhere. I recall only one R21 car used for the current collector fleet and all R12/15 motors have been scrapped ending in 1997.
You have any pix of the motorized CWR set?
-Stef
I know I do, but its going to be looking for a needle in a haystack. They were last in 207th Street around 1987 when I snapped them. All were GE cars, one I think was the Goetz car too. I think the TA went backwards in going to two engines to run a CWR set, I had slip/slide problems with them on dry rail at times and was difficult to maintain control on bridges. For work service, nothing beats a SMEE.
>nothing beats a SMEE
Amen to that, brother!
-Stef
Did the H&M decide where the stations would be if this extension was built? It seems likely that 38th and 42nd would have been candidates on the way to GC.
Probably would have been 38th, Fifth Avenue, then GCT. Remember the H&M has to turn right, then left to access GCT from Herald Square.
The H&M was supposed to continue up 6th ave and then turn right under Bryant Pk and end at the "middle" level, beneath the IRT GCT station (now the shuttle) and above the Steinway station (the #7). When you take the western set escalators from the #7, the break in the middle to switch to the 2nd escalator is where the H&M level was going to be.
Was the H&M going to pass beneath Patience or Fortitude? (LOL)
Does anyone know if there are any old maps showing the KK, and or the old #8 in the Bronx?
I have several old maps, but would like to have them as well
Thanks!
Any map issued between 1968-1973 should show these routes. Happy hunting!
All maps from 1968-1973 show the 3 Av service and same for the KK. I'm trying to find old maps myself [mainly maps from 1979-1988] but I have no idea where to start, maybe someone could help me out. Thanx for your time.
If electronic copies will do, try this site.
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/historical/1972.jpg
shows the K and the 3rd Ave line.
Check eBay if you want to buy them.
Some posters here might have some available for trade. (Sorry, I don't.)
If you just want to see them, the map room at the New York Public Library at 41st and 5th has a complete collection of subway maps.
Well, I guess looking won't be a problem. I was trying to avoid online trade but if it comes down to it, I may consider it.
Thanks, I was able to print a picture from the web site, thanks again!
I'm reminded of what Leon Hess said when he hired Richie Kotite...
"I'm an old man! I want to win now!"
Leon's long dead and they won't win this year.
I'm a middle aged man and I want to see the 2nd Avenue Subway now.
Did i jinx the prolect?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Generations of young men, and some women, some of whom had money riding on it, have grown old and died wanting it more than you. You have the cold and honorable consolation of knowing you'll probably share their fate.
And what a pleasant surprise it will be when it happens.
>>>Generations of young men, and some women, some of whom had money riding on it, have grown old and died wanting it more than you. You have
the cold and honorable consolation of knowing you'll probably share their fate. <<
Yeah...those damn Jets...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Nah, you didn't jinx it and you're not alone. I thought for sure when I started with the TA in 1982, that by now I would be qualified on some sort of 2nd Avenue line. Reminds me of when construction started on the Nassau Expressway in the late 1960's. I was about 7 or 8 at the time, we were on our way to my grandparent's summer house in Long Beach. My father had mentioned to my brother and I about all the digging along Rockaway Blvd, and what it was for. I remember saying that when I was old enough to drive I could get to Grandma's house a lot quicker! Well, I'm 42 now, my grandparents are long dead, and the Nassau Expressway is still a shell of what it was supposed to be.
I'm with you, but I must admit part of me is glad they're still not building that poor excuse for a trunk line subway on 2nd Ave, which the latest plans outlined. I'm still holding out hope that when it finally does get built, there will be at least provisions for express trackage (a la the 6th Avenue line before it was completely tracked). I'm also holding out hope that they engineer it somehow closer to cut-and-cover methods, instead of deep-tunnel boring. You shouldn't have to descend several stories to get to the trains unless they have a reason to be that deep, such as to accommodate flying over or under an existing line. On the upper east side, there are no other perpendicular subway lines, so having the tunnels so deep makes no sense. Furthermore, 2nd Avenue is much wider than Lex, which means the express tracks could be on the same level as the local, negating the need for a "lower level" for express stops.
I agree with you... If they can't at least buid a 79th Street and 116th Street Station... and a 4 track/for express service... The HELL with it. Put a LRV on second avenue.. all I care!
But the most troubling thing is how the Second Avenue line would end up at Lexington Avenue and 125th Street.. It has always been my dream to have a crosstown line... even if it dead ends at Lexington Avenue.. an inside connection can be provided b/t the 4/5/6 and the metro north.. which to me means safety...
Also, the plan to take over the "6" line in the Bronx.. is just BOGUS! and BS.. I would rather it take over the #5 line from 180th Street to DYRE AVENUE.. This will solve the merging problems with the 2/5. It will give passengers in that area much better service than what is there currently.
THIRD AVENUE IS AN IDEAL AREA FOR AN ELEVATED LINE! TO REPLACE WHAT EXISTED PREVIOUS!!! Now everyone has to rely on buses, which are inadequate and slow...
N Bwy...
>>But the most troubling thing is how the Second Avenue line would end up at Lexington Avenue and 125th Street.. It has always been my dream to have a crosstown line... even if it dead ends at Lexington Avenue.. an inside connection can be provided b/t the 4/5/6 and the metro north.. which to me means safety... <<
Dear N -- the latest plan I saw does have the line end perpendicular to Lex, running due west on 125th, with the terminal station between the MNRR station and the Lex station so you could walk underground bewteen the two. Isn't that what you are saying?
Yes... And, since that is the case, Does the MTA have the new plans on there site?
The last time I heard, the line is going to take over the pelham line, which means that the 125th Street Station would be directly underneath the Lexington Lines.
Can someone help me?
N Bwy
That was the MTA's plan, which if you plot it out on a map is pretty stupid -- the zig zag route the line would take -- from the Pelham line to Lex-125th, then east to Second Ave., then west on 63rd to Seventh Ave. then back towards the east again on Broadway south of Times Square -- means that anyone who's in a hurry to get downtown will change trains at 125th for the 4 or 5. The plan would remove overcrowding on the Lex local south of 125th, since it would lose most of its Bronx passengers, but would do nothing to solve the overcrowding problems on the Lex express.
Yes... Sooooooo... did they implement the new changes on there website? And can you tell me where to go to find these changes...
Anyway, even if there is a cross town line.. it will most like duplicate the lexington Avenue line, if it was to terminate at Lexington.. so the result would be the samething.. But at least it will increase the likelihood of extending futher towards the westside.
What would really make the line useful is if they extend it to at least St. Nicholas Avenue with the A and C lines.
N Bwy
Also, go here:
http://www.mta.info/planning/sas/sas_alignment.htm
for a map showing the line turning west under 125th St.
Thanks! Steve! This is really fabulous.. since the last version was about the line curving west onto Lexington Avenue.. I also notice a stem that goes straight towards the direction of the Bronx. I'm wondering what plans they have for a Bronx Line.. I sure hope they consider taking the old boston/westchester railroad route, replacing the number 5 at DYRE Avenue. Still, too bad they don't have any provision for a four track system.. And, it really sucks that they are not going to have a 79th Street Station.. Especially since Hunter College, the School Of Social, and the Hospital is there.
N Bwy
Hunter College is at 68 St but the Hospital & The School of Social is around 79 St. I agree that the Dyre Av line should become part of the BMT/IND system or a joint operation [unlikely but you never know]. The 2 Av subway should run via Webster Av or Prospect/Crotona Av in the Bronx then turn right via E 180 St or Tremont Av, merge into the Dyre Av branch on the 5 and run to Dyre.
"Hunter College is at 68 St but the Hospital & The School of Social is around 79 St.
Yes! your right! my mistake..
"I agree that the Dyre Av line should become part of the BMT/IND system or a joint operation [unlikely but you never know]. The 2 Av subway should run via Webster Av or Prospect/Crotona Av in the Bronx then turn right via E 180 St or Tremont Av, merge into the Dyre Av branch on the 5 and run to Dyre."
that sounds like a good idea.. but I prefer 3rd Avenue because another line once existed there. But how is this line going to swing over from 3rd Avenue (webster avenue)? If you haven't read about the old commuter rail service into westchester county.. you should.. but that route feeds right into the 2/5, but leads to it's own seperate station.. The problem is.. the old route is surrounded by a highway system.. and the population is pretty scant.
N Bwy
I read about the old NYB&W and it was very interesting. Anyway, I think it would be good for riders heading toward the Bronx but I'm going to look at my Bronx map and look more thoroughly to see what could be the best route.
No way, the #5 wouldn't have a real place to go if you did that, it wouldn't have any night service, that would be worse than the #3, the #5 needs the Dyre line so it can exist at night. The 2nd Avenue subway would just be running on a line with "low ridership" as they say.
They don't really need the #5... outside the evening schedule.. because It is a supplement service. And since the ridership is so low on the Dyre Avenue branch (as you claim), riders using the 2/5 currently wouldn't be that convenience.. As a matter of fact, they might prefer the new service.. because it would run 24 hours from Manhattan.
N Bwy
low ridership compared to WPR obviously, why else does WPR have around 2X the service during rush hours
I DID say that a joint operation is possible and you could still maintain the Dyre shuttle. So if it hurts the 5 then terminate the new 2 Av service at the last stop before it merges into the Dyre line late nights. I still say a joint operation would be very beneficial since all of those trains can't go to 238 St, it will clog the WPR line.
The (5) would go to 241 St in this case NOT 238 St and the MTA would have to change some of the strip maps costing them $$$
IMO, the 5 should of never been shortened to 241 St in the first place. Why do they have to change the strip maps for ONE stop? It could be left the way it is.
My fault, I meant FROM 241 St.
It should of never been shortened to 238 St but it was done to prevent congestion at 241 St [so I've heard].
If you want to see a #5 train going to E 241 delay a #2 train in upper Manhattan for 10-15 minutes(door holding)(or get someone else to do it) causing all #2's to be backed up, then I will take pictures of the #5 going to E 241 Street and show you...... lol
I would like to see that LOL.
The yard lead to the 238th St subway yard is FROM East 238rd St/Nereid, no direct yard lead from E 241st st is possible. The old system was when the #5 train used the East 241st st terminal, it had to lay up at east 238rd st, then the t/O would have to go to other end to get it to East 241st st, THEN go back to the front for the AM runs. This procedure is reversed for the PM trains but only gets worse. For only one stop, it only delayed PM #2 trains to get to the Wakefield terminal, because it takes a few precious minuted to take a train out of service for lay up. Discharging at E 238th st is better, because it only has to go directly to the yard instead of backtracking to East 238th st from East 241st st.
couldn't the #2 use the OTHER track to terminate in, theyhave been doing that since the 1960s it was mainly Pataki's budget cuts that did this. Of course now passengers have an even longer wait to get to E 241
they even cut #3 trains from 241 St to 238 St as well
"The (5) would go to 241 St in this case NOT 238 St and the MTA would have to change some of the strip maps costing them $$$"
It can still have a terminus at 238th Street... that way it doesn't congest the area..
N BWY
1. The Dyre line has 24 hour service(although it is a shuttle at night transfer to (2) at E 180 nights) that would get rid of one of the most famous shuttles in NYCT history (during G.O.s you may see the actual shuttle return the (S))?
2. The (5) would turn around better if it terminated at 241 St instead of 238 St(where it would have to go through the yard)
you should hve seen the WPR line in the summer (3) and <5>trains appeared at E 180 Street at the same time, (2) trains had to wait for (3) and <5> trains to lay up at E 238 St. Imagine if you were on a #2 that was behind a #3 and a #5 you had to wait a while to get off. In the AM that isn't a problem, only the PM
Geez, now that's some crazy stuff there. They should of just ran the 5 to 241 St or divert some more 5's to Dyre Av.
"I DID say that a joint operation is possible and you could still maintain the Dyre shuttle. So if it hurts the 5 then terminate the new 2 Av service at the last stop before it merges into the Dyre line late nights. I still say a joint operation would be very beneficial since all of those trains can't go to 238 St, it will clog the WPR line."
What would be the purpose of running a join service?
First, the Second Avenue Line going to DYRE AVENUE will improve the service there, because it will be 24 hours.
Second, it will be more frequent than current 5 service because it wouldn't have to share the track with the 2/4 lines.
The only inconvenience would be people traveling from the westside 2 line who would be forced to transfer to the Second Avenue Line, which would lie on a different platform.. Other than that, the Second Avenue line will bring in a lot of improvements.
N Bwy
If a joint 2nd Ave line with the WPR 2/5 lines is doable, then you have to eliminate the spur to the 63rd st/Broadway lines because the IRT cars will have wide gaps on stations along the BMT Broadway line (or ANY B division station for that matter.)
That post should have been directed to Flatbush.. I do not support a combined service b/t the IRT and BMT subway.
N Bwy
It's only a possibility; I'd do a joint op ONLY if people reject the idea of getting rid of the 5 via Dyre, other than that the 2 Av service could do a complete takeover.
Anyway, that's true, it will provide direct service to Manhattan 24 hours via the east side and would take riders off the Lexington Av line, therefore alleviating the extreme crowding on the Lex. And it would also eliminate the need to transfer at E 180 St for 2 trains. You're right, it brings a whole lot of improvements.
By the way, Steve, the 116th and 125th Street stations are still under evaluation... This might also include the new alignment.
Other stations include the 54th Street and 42nd Street Stations. I don't have a problem with the 42nd Street station, but I question the 54th Street station. Maybe they don't want people to be encourage to take the 4/5... but, the "N" that goes to Astoria is there.. And it will be very stupid to miss this opportunity to connect this line with the new second have alignment.
If this doesn't happen, passengers using the second avenue alignment will have to take a Q Broadway train to 57th Street.. and be forced to backtrack on the "N" line.
But maybe they are looking at it a different way... For instance, the E line is probably the most important line in that complex, because of it's west side route.. However, aren't there plans to extend the #7 line? If that's the case, the "E" become irrelevant.
Lets pray that they will at least consider extending the second Avenue line to 42nd Street.. It will really make a difference.. especially for people in the United Nations/NYU area.
N Bwy
As far as the Bronx goes, I'd rather see a line that basically paralells the current Metro North Harlem/New Haven line through the middle of the Bronx, possible even using part of it's current ROW, the same way WMATA took over part of the ROW of the B&O railroad's line out of Washington, D.C. towards Harper's Ferry for use by the Red Line in the Montgomery County suburbs. That would be the closest thing to replacing the route of the former Third Ave. el at the lowest cost.
As far as "taking over" an existing IRT line, if the new line was ramped up above the Metro North track bed south of Gun Hill Road and then turned east at Gun Hill Road, it could go over to take over the former lower level of the old Third Ave. el's GHR station at White Plains Road (I know they took most of that out, but the clearance space is still there and they would have had to rebuild it anyway to handle 600-foot trains). Then the No. 2 train could terminate on the upper level at Gun Hill Road (still having access to the upper part of the line) and the Second Ave. line could take over the upper part of the White Plains Road line to 241st-Wakefield, along with sharing the 238th St. yard.
So long as there was a 63rd St. connection to the West Side from the Second Ave. line for current No. 2 riders, running a route like that would certainly speed up travel times for people in the far north-central sections of the Bronx, especially if the new line made only limited stops, like at 149th, 161st, Tremont Ave. and Fordham Rd. before getting to Gun Hill Road.
The revision I've actually seen is that instead of ending the stubway paralell to the 125th Street station (two turns), it end in a station paralell to 125th Street. For one thing, this puts the other end of the station right under the MetroNorth stop, and easy change for MetroNorth riders going to/from the Upper East Side. The UES isn't Midtown, but those hospitals have a lot of jobs.
As for the other stub, a yard will have to go somewhere, somewhere like the Bronx. The original plan had the 2nd Avenue running express at grade right from Manhattan to the Dyre Avenue Line, with opportunities to change from the White Plains Rd and Pelham Lines.
"The revision I've actually seen is that instead of ending the stubway paralell to the 125th Street station (two turns), it end in a station paralell to 125th Street. For one thing, this puts the other end of the station right under the MetroNorth stop, and easy change for MetroNorth riders going to/from the Upper East Side. The UES isn't Midtown, but those hospitals have a lot of jobs."
To me, a direct connection to the Metro North is a very good idea.. And it also allows the line to become like a crosstown shuttle.. connecting to major lines like the 2/3 (which, can also be considered a cross westside line), and the A, B, C, D..
Riders especially using the A and C will benefit, because these lines serve the far west side of northern Manhattan.
I don't mention the 1/9, because that's pretty tempting.. due to it being on an viaduct or (EL).
"As for the other stub, a yard will have to go somewhere, somewhere like the Bronx. The original plan had the 2nd Avenue running express at grade right from Manhattan to the Dyre Avenue Line, with opportunities to change from the White Plains Rd and Pelham Lines."
This original plan can still be implemented because the infrastructure exist already. But a better idea will be to build an elevated line on third Avenue into Co-op City via Gun Hill Road.
N Bwy
"The UES isn't Midtown, but those hospitals have a lot of jobs."
And patients and their families who have little in the way of ADA-compliant subway service.
Example: Where better to put an ADA-compliant station than next to NY Hospital for Special Surgery? (Yours truly was a patient in the 1960's of the hospital's famous Dr. Cooper, a pioneer in orthopedic surgery for children with cerebral palsy).
YES SIR!!! I'm at your SERVICE!!!
N Bwy Local
Montague Tunnel
The Dyer plan is one of the options I remember from the early 1970s, along with the Pelham Bay tie-in. I just think following the Metro North route up the middle of the borough would be less costly, since the MTA owns the ROW already, and would serve much of the area that lost direct rail service when the Third Ave. el closed.
As for the paralell 125th St. station option, it defintely allows for more options than a station that would be paralell to the Lex on the north side of 125th. The line could either be extended all the way over to the far side of 125th near the Hudson, or could be connected up north of 125th at St. Nicholas to those two extra tracks on the Eigth Ave. line, which would allow the Second Ave. line to either terminate at 168th-Washington Heights or even be extended up the Concourse line to the Bronx during rush hours (though admittedly, that would be an even more zig-zaggy route than hooking it up to the Pelham line at 125th and then running it down Second Ave. and then back west at 63rd St.).
"The Dyer plan is one of the options I remember from the early 1970s, along with the Pelham Bay tie-in. I just think following the Metro North route up the middle of the borough would be less costly, since the MTA owns the ROW already, and would serve much of the area that lost direct rail service when the Third Ave. el closed."
Your talking about the Metro North infrastructure which have several lines running across.. I guess you never even factor in how much compacity is available.
"As for the paralell 125th St. station option, it defintely allows for more options than a station that would be paralell to the Lex on the north side of 125th. The line could either be extended all the way over to the far side of 125th near the Hudson, or could be connected up north of 125th at St. Nicholas to those two extra tracks on the Eigth Ave. line, which would allow the Second Ave. line to either terminate at 168th-Washington Heights or even be extended up the Concourse line to the Bronx during rush hours (though admittedly, that would be an even more zig-zaggy route than hooking it up to the Pelham line at 125th and then running it down Second Ave. and then back west at 63rd St.)."
If you are talking about 168th Street, that sounds like a pleasant idea.. But forget about the Bronx. You have the B/D. But a better idea will be to run it all the way to Broadway... I'm sure many people will use it.. especially since you talking about the UES and Columbia University.
N Bwy
Metro North ROW north of 155th is still wider than the B&O ROW in Montgomery County, Md. where WMATA shoehorned in the Red Line, complete with island platform stations (check it out next time you're in the D.C. area). A subway line using either the east or western edges of the MN trackspace between 155th and Gun Hill Road certainly is workable, so long as a barrier fence between the two services was erected in order to meet FRA regulations. Running a seperate underground tunnel at least up to the split with the Harlem line would have to be done in order to avoid the main track switching, and running it along the east side of the ROW would make it easier to ramp up to the existing White Plains Road el at Gun Hill Road, though the Third Ave. el ran to the west of the Metro North line.
As for 125th, the Concourse route would only be a potential option -- from a pratcial standpoint, it's far less logical than either running straight across 125th to B'way or Riverside Drive or running it north to 168th Washington Heights (which would also help No. 1 passengers coming in from Bronx make easier connections to the East Side north of 42nd St.)
" Metro North ROW north of 155th is still wider than the B&O ROW in Montgomery County, Md. where WMATA shoehorned in the Red Line, complete with island platform stations (check it out next time you're in the D.C. area). A subway line using either the east or western edges of the MN trackspace between 155th and Gun Hill Road certainly is workable, so long as a barrier fence between the two services was erected in order to meet FRA regulations. Running a seperate underground tunnel at least up to the split with the Harlem line would have to be done in order to avoid the main track switching, and running it along the east side of the ROW would make it easier to ramp up to the existing White Plains Road el at Gun Hill Road, though the Third Ave. el ran to the west of the Metro North line. "
I thought there were only 4 tracks in that embankment? But if I'm wrong, than I need to take another look at it.. By the way, I lived in Westchester for about 4 years.. And have travel through there with the MN several times.. So I'm kinda familiar with the area. However, this was several years ago.. Maybe they widen it to accomodate enough space to drop two extra tracks there.. But if your talking about taking two tracks for the subway and than stuffing all the MN services on two tracks.. You GOT TO BE KIDDING! Besides being an operational nightmare, you will have a lot of frustrated people on your case.
"As for 125th, the Concourse route would only be a potential option -- from a pratcial standpoint, it's far less logical than either running straight across 125th to B'way or Riverside Drive or running it north to 168th Washington Heights (which would also help No. 1 passengers coming in from Bronx make easier connections to the East Side north of 42nd St.)"
Personally, I think it will be better running it all the way to Broadway... Because people living on the UES might find that connection more favorable.. since Columbia University is close by. And that connection might not be as painful as the 168th Street which requires an elevator ride to the 1/9 station.
I got to tell you that I try to avoid that connection when I could.. I just can't take being stuffed into an elevator with all those people.. Besides, I was pick-pocket once there.. Luckily I only lost $135 dollars.
Another reason why I don't like cutting it short to the 8th Avenue line..because the 8th Avenue line doesn't really need it.. They have 4 lines running across it.. It's probably has the highest frequency of train activity than any service in that area..
The only problem I have with the #1/9 line is because it's an outside connection... And the traffic in that area is pretty horrible.. since you have the FDR in that area.. And there's a FAULT there which I can't conceive what the danger effects would be if it's tampered with... foooo weeee..
N BWY
how about the original idea? Second ave to the Grand Concourse,with a branch to replace the ol'3 ave line...... this WAS the way the IND WAS suppose to look= 2 trunck lines[8th and 2nd ave's with the 6th ave line coming later]some what like the IRT's H system with the 53 street line tying them together.As we all know ,the plans were changed,and the 2 ave was cycled into the socalled ''second system'' routes.....
"how about the original idea? Second ave to the Grand Concourse,with a branch to replace the ol'3 ave line...... this WAS the way the IND WAS suppose to look= 2 trunck lines[8th and 2nd ave's with the 6th ave line coming later]some what like the IRT's H system with the 53 street line tying them together.As we all know ,the plans were changed,and the 2 ave was cycled into the socalled ''second system'' routes..... "
YEAH!!!! WE GOT SIXTH AVENUE!!! WHAT A WASTE!!! Just picture in your mind a PATH train extension to 57th Street... and how much more receive it would have gotten...
N Bwy
[lol] I agree.6th ave should have been done much later,after 2nd ave...
"As far as the Bronx goes, I'd rather see a line that basically paralells the current Metro North Harlem/New Haven line through the middle of the Bronx, possible even using part of it's current ROW, the same way WMATA took over part of the ROW of the B&O railroad's line out of Washington, D.C. towards Harper's Ferry for use by the Red Line in the Montgomery County suburbs. That would be the closest thing to replacing the route of the former Third Ave. el at the lowest cost."
I wouldn't bother anything belonging to the Metro-North.. Trains often use both tracks.. so you will limit compacity greatly on these lines.. And I don't think people will be comfortable with that arraignment.
"As far as "taking over" an existing IRT line, if the new line was ramped up above the Metro North track bed south of Gun Hill Road and then turned east at Gun Hill Road, it could go over to take over the former lower level of the old Third Ave. el's GHR station at White Plains Road (I know they took most of that out, but the clearance space is still there and they would have had to rebuild it anyway to handle 600-foot trains). Then the No. 2 train could terminate on the upper level at Gun Hill Road (still having access to the upper part of the line) and the Second Ave. line could take over the upper part of the White Plains Road line to 241st-Wakefield, along with sharing the 238th St. yard. "
I would rather see this line take over the dyre avenue line.. But the path would most likely be the old NY B&W railroad which really doesn't serve a very heavy populated area... due to the express way.. But it will make connecting to the #6 and #2/5 easy in the bronx.. And the service to dyre would be better than currently.
"So long as there was a 63rd St. connection to the West Side from the Second Ave. line for current No. 2 riders, running a route like that would certainly speed up travel times for people in the far north-central sections of the Bronx, especially if the new line made only limited stops, like at 149th, 161st, Tremont Ave. and Fordham Rd. before getting to Gun Hill Road."
Welll... lets hope that people use it.. the way they use the BX55
N BWY
Go here:
http://www.mta.info/planning/sas/sas_documents.htm
Then, click on 125th St. station, for a plan of the staion showing it extending beween MNRR and Lex.
I'm 16, so does anyone think I will ever see the 2nd Ave Subway?
I wouldn't hope for it.
I'd be happy just to see the 125th to 63rd St. "stubway", serviced by the Broadway line. That alone would be of IMMENSE help in decreasing ridership on the overburdened 4/5/6.
This just in:
6911-15 delivered 12/17/02
7041-45 delivered 12/31/02
7046-50 delivered 01/03/03
Trying to plug in missing links. That's all for now!
-Stef
Busted, crappy trainsets needing major revisions. The major error in acceptance garuntees work for all. Our job is to maintain passenger and system safety which my #5 crew does to its best. CI Peter
Are you saying that the latest R-142 trainsets are "busted" and "crappy?"
Yea, One of the new R142 #5 burned up at 3 Ave Sunday.
Well one more day and I am on my way back where I belong, not quite NYC but New Englad will have to do. Will hopefully see some of the crew on here at Branford as I will be close enough again to be somewhat involved. Sparky go easy on me during the road test!!!Haven't posted much on here, just not that much going on here in Jacksonville, FL. Learned a lot and Thanks
Steve Loitsch
We await your return to BERA.
-Stef
Steve,
It's going to be odd, having a trainee from the military, who may
call their instructors "Sir", instead of the ususual ***.
Only kidding, we will look for yaw in March.
Any other Sub Talkers interested in learning Streetcar Operation 101,
this coming March for 5 Saturdays, contact the training director@
BERA.ORG. A regular or higher membership is required plus a nominal
fee for training materials.
;-) Sparky
Guess maybe I'll have to come up during training just to help Sparky harass you :-) Seriously, we'll be glad to have you back... how far away from Branford will you be located?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wouldn't be the first time :-). After spending 12 years in the Navy you tend to get a thick skin!!! Especially after becoming a shellback!! My ship is homeported in downtown New Bedford, MA. It is about a 2 hour drive give or take.
Steve
I almost didn't bother venturing out in the cold today, but I'm glad I did.
I started, naturally, at 86th on the 1, where I noticed that NB 2's and 3's were running local. Turns out that both express tracks were closed at 72nd for station rehab work. We were held very briefly at 72nd, due to a sick passenger on a northbound train, according to the C/R's announcement, which left many passengers scratching their heads.
Got off at 59th for the A. My primary goal was to see where trains were actually going; my secondary goal was to ride at the window through the GO. I had to wait a while for that window -- the first four A trains were all R-44 sets. The first was signed "to HOWARD BEACH / JFK AIRPORT"; the second (immediately behind the first) was signed "LISTEN FOR / ANNOUNCEMENTS"; the third was signed for Far Rock; and the fourth was signed for Lefferts(!). Finally an R-32 set pulled in, signed for Far Rock, and I got on. I figured that alternate trains (for the most part) were terminating at Howard Beach. (If I may inject a rant: WHY? Some trains, on 20-minute headways, were running between 207th and Howard Beach and relaying there. Other trains, also on 20-minute headways, were running between Rock Park and Broad Channel and relaying there. It wouldn't have cost much more to just connect the two pieces.) I don't know why that one train was signed for Lefferts, but I saw a few others on my travels.
The ride through Manhattan and Brooklyn was filled with more than the usual share of vendors and panhandlers, including one who tried to push me out of the way to get to the next car and wasn't amused when I pointed out that there was no next car. Announcements and signage about the GO were in general inadequate, except at Euclid, where someone on the platform was herding everyone onto our train. We had to wait a few minutes to enter the work area, and when we were finally allowed to proceed, I think a track panel hanging in midair managed to scrape the side of the entire train. Needless to say, we didn't pick up any decent speed on the brief express run.
I got off at Howard Beach and crossed over, having just missed an R-38 set from Far Rock. Fortunately, there was an R-44 set waiting in the relay, and it pulled in a minute or two later, so I didn't have to wait in the cold. Unfortunately, when the doors closed there were two other passengers in the car, one who smelled it up and one who urinated in the doorway. I moved forward at N. Conduit and got off at Rockaway Blvd. for a few photos.
The ride back through Brooklyn was uneventful except for the crazies who seemed to have all picked the same car. At Jay I made a last-minute decision to take the F down to 4th Avenue and scout out a railfan window on the W. Instead I got a railfan window on the F, which never shows up when I want one.
Downstairs at 9th Street an R-68 W was waiting. I got on since I needed to make a brief stop at 36th. Approaching 36th we had to wait for an N to cross in front of us, resulting in a sequence of NWWRW -- that third W being an R-40 set, which I boarded. There was a work train on the express track, but it pulled out just before the last W pulled in.
Naturally, we got stuck behind it. It sat for ten minutes at the end of the long tunnel approaching the 9th Avenue switches. As a result, we were sent express (on the local) -- kind of annoying, given that there was no NB service, but the C/R made lots and lots of clear announcements the whole time. Stillwell remarkably had only one free pocket.
The express run up the Sea Beach seemed faster than usual. We passed an N at Fort Hamilton, and then a miracle happened: the W was sent in front of the N! (I've ridden this GO many times and every time with one exception, the W had to wait at 8th Avenue for an N which we had passed to pass us back. That one exception was a week ago, when we didn't pass an N at all.) Approaching the portal I spotted the side sign of an R-46 on the brief exposed section of the 4th Avenue line. The R went first, and when we got the lineup, the tower flipped it back and forth (local to express to local) as we were moving. The W was held for a connection with the N we had passed, which I took to Pacific.
(For those keeping track, I saw an R-32 set on the N, an R-40M set on the N, and an R-40M set on the W.)
From Atlantic I took a 2 (stopping at the express platform) directly back home to 86th. It was running the weekday program, though it was correctly set for the GO's in Manhattan and the Bronx, but the C/R let the announcements play and didn't insert a word of his own. Do some C/R's think they're not supposed to say anything at all over the PA, no matter what? An announcement would have been helpful at 72nd.
"If I may inject a rant: WHY? Some trains, on 20-minute headways, were running between 207th and Howard Beach and relaying there"
If I understand correctly, it sounds as though they were using Howard Beach as "Lefferts for a Day". Doing that would seem to allow them to keep the same schedule and crew assignments as any normal Sunday.
I would hope a supplement schedule was written up for the GO. It took much longer than usual to get through the work area, and I doubt it takes exactly as long to get from 80th to Howard Beach and back as to get from 80th to Lefferts and back. The regular schedule wouldn't work anyway.
This wasn't a one-day affair. It's a two-day GO that will be recurring on weekends for the rest of the month. The work to combine the A and shuttle crews would only have to be done once.
Wow, was it cold yesterday, but it sounds like a good time, in spite of the panhandlers, beggars, urinators, etc (Hmmm, a typical subway ride...).
That's one of the disadvantages of being in a locked 75 foot car, you can't get out if someone smells, etc. I remember one New Year's Eve about 10 years ago, I went to Times Square with some friends. Afterwards, we decided to do some subway riding, and we decided to take the N train to Coney Island. We got a N R-68 at Times Square (at which of course I had seen record numbers of people going to the columns at the end of the Times Square station to do what they do there).
Well anyway, some time around Union Ave in Brooklyn some guy gets on and lets his huge boa constrictor loose on the floor, and it is slithering around the train. I hate snakes, so we all decided to make a run for it to the next car when the train stopped at the next station. Well as we entered the next car, the doors closed and we realized someone threw-up in the ENTIRE car. This certainly doesn't go well with the mirrored interiors of the R68's. Luckily I wasn't drinking that night, because if I had been, that would have been enough to set me off too (which by the look of the car many other people did. It couldn't be all from just one person). Horrible. And we were stuck in that car with that smell until the next station. The poor guy that had to clean that up!
Well, around this time it must've been about 45th Street, because we hadn't entered the Sea Beach yet. We ran to the next car, and there were two homeless people in that car, and again couldn't breath from the stench. And again, stuck in the car until the next station. Finally we got into a "clean" car, but around 18th Avenue, three crazies got on the train, at 20th, another crazy found our car, as well as two drunks that had just run from the smelly "homeless" car next to us. So we endured all of them until Coney Island. Our F train to Delancey was peaceful, and totally uneventful. The joys of New Year's Eve on the subway...... It was fun though. A great way to bring in the New Year in spite of the crazies, etc. What would the subway be without them.... And although I never really was a big fan of the R-68's, that N train ride that night kind of clinched it. I still can't get the image of that horrible R-68 with that stench out of my head.
Ten years ago today on a snowy Tuesday January 12, 1993 I stepped into the Hastings-on-Hudson public library and read Stanley Fischer's book "Uptown Downtown" for the first time. This was the very book that spurred my interest in the New York City subways. Since that very day, I have gained much knowledge about the New York City subway system and its impact upon the growth of New York City.
#3 West End Jeff
Does anyone know if the lot at Shea is available for Park and Ride? I know they make it available for special circumstances -- but is it open on a daily basis?
CG
I just came across a short but powerful article in last week's New York Press about an incident on the #3 train late one night.
Subway Sleeper
LTMOTT (Laugh to myself on the train). Your talents are wasted here. You ought to write for one of those alternative rags. You know, like the Wall Street Journal.
Thanks. Actually I'm aiming higher.
aim higher? The Village Voice? The NY Post?
CNN Headline news would be a step up from the Wall St Urinal, "let's see if we can get the rubes to buy this highly touted junk stock so we can get out" and of course "Microsoft and AOL stock rebound (so we can sell and get out)" ... the Daily Racing Form is a more credible tout sheet. You GO, Paul. :)
Now if he could figure out how to put scrolling text in a newspaper...:)
Oh...you mean the esteemed 'National Enquirer'?
Since when does the 3 run at 2 in the morning?
I just checked my map and you're right.
Maybe the author made a mistake, but now you have me wondering whether this really happened. Even though I admired what the conductor did, would it have ended as described? Would these kids have been so shamed by the conductor that they would have gotten off the train without giving the conductor grief?
The story almost has too much of a happy ending.
Any opinions out there??
If it is a true story, the conductor has my respect.
Right...and if it is true AND the C/R is a SubTalker, please feel free to identify yourself...
If the story is true, the conductor is a good man. A real mensch.
Absolutely.
(It was probably a 2 train. The 2 does run all night and follows much of the same route as the 3.)
Must of been a typo. I'm sure the author meant the 2 train.
That's a good article there, the C/R stood up for the guy and chased those teens out of there.
Ten cheers for that conductor! Many folks don't realize it but conductors are responsible for the safety of their "flock" on the train, and it's nice to see someone noticing it in print. :)
There's the TA's "employee of the month" in my book.
I agree with you, too bad some people don't see the important role the C/R has for ensuring passenger safety as much as we do.
Folks are encouraged to do something I can't do, living 150 miles north of the city ... THANK a conductor sometime. It'll blow their minds! :)
They are underappreciated and could get a little more recognition for diong their job. Yeah, I guess it would blow their minds when someone says thanks :-).
Last time we were in da city on Christmas of 2001, we ended up waiting to meet up with a friend who happens to be a conductor. So we parked ourselves at the zebra waiting for his train to show up. Needless to say we made a number of his leaders a bit twitchy before explaining who we were waiting for and why, wished them all a Merry Merry, extending sympathies for their RDO's ... many of them were just plain floored that we weren't angry at them (or supervision) ... managed to spread a little cheer among the TWU folks while we were there, doesn't cost a penny to do so either. :)
Wow, even to the supervisors, that doesn't happen too often. Wishing a Merry Christmas to employees isn't so hard and its FREE.
Requires FAR less effort than writing them up. :)
I'd love to -- but, as a railfan, I'm usually stationed half a trainlength away from the C/R.
(OTOH, if I ask a question of the C/R and get a courteous response, I do thank him. But I think that's just common decency, or at least it should be.)
Heh. Well, when you go to meet friends that work the middle, ya have to do without the glass stain on your nose sometimes. Met some friends who worked the front of the train too the day after. :)
Powerful? What's so powerful? A semi-fictitious story in which the lead character delivers a speech that is too corny even for the Movie-of-the-Week? Please. What crap.
from the story:
In Brooklyn, at Nevins St., several people emptied out of the car and a group of kids entered. They were of the variety of teenagers who disrupt everything in their presence with the offensive blare of their attitudes.
Oh, so they were that variety of teenager. Yeah, nice.
I think this tells us all we need to know. This "writer" has found a way to express his sweeping prejudice against young people by means of this unverifiable anecdote.
What a convenient point of view to have -- in order to demonize the people you hate, you don't need to actually witness them committing some kind of disruptive behavior; you just base it on "the offensive blare of their attitudes".
And don't go telling me that the kids in this story did actually do something mean. They're the writer's characters; they can do whatever the writer wants. Furthermore, people who hold this attitude towards kids do not -- correct that -- refuse to make the distinction between actual threats and harmless horseplay, or between actual threats and animated conversation. In this sense, it really doesn't matter what the kids go on do; they are deemed "dangerous" by their very nature upon their arrival on the scene.
The attitude of this writer is disgustingly common, and I object to its "offensive blare". Too damn many people regard the mere presence of teenagers as inherently dangerous. This mixes with other longstanding racist and classist prejudices to create an ugly climate wherein kids cannot simply be kids without risking some tightass calling the cops on them.
There was a kid who posted here recently about his school "taking over" the C train, and many people got all bent out of shape and took a scolding tone. That was a manefestation of this ugly, intolerant attitude, and it was absurd to me. When I was in high school, about 25 years ago, any time the people from my school dominated a Q76 bus, it was "zoo time", and it was great fun. I bet some of the people who scolded our fellow poster would have called the cops on us, too.
This kind of attitude naturally leads to a perception of the subway and buses as places infested with predators, and serves as a kind of a-priori justification of "vigilante" violence, undertaken supposedly "in self-defense" -- no matter how out of proportion the violence is to the supposed "threat".
I am reminded of a post here a few weeks ago in which someone described the acts of a train passenger who took it upon himself to throw an elbow at a kid who was walking through the crowded car too boisterously for the tastes of the first passenger. Even granting credit to the version of events in the post (that the kid was brushing people as he was walking), there clearly was no actual safety issue there. The elbow-thrower was simply acting out of a sense of impunity that his violent act would be tolerated and even applauded by the majority who share his prejudice.
Look, I have plenty of contempt for many of the idiots I see in the subway, namely the door-blockers, the seat-hoggers, and, most of all, the solicitors for Jesus-themed "recovery" programs. But, I have none of this hatred for teenagers. We all need to realize that kids will be kids, that they will raise a little hell, and that that's OK.
Ferdinand Cesarano
P.S. - I agree that it is a great idea to tell a conductor that you appreciate the job he is doing.
God, do you need a stress ball.
Peace,
ANDEE
We've disagreed before, but I like your attitude in this post.
Yeah, I thought you wrote it. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I just finished reading Keith Lowe's novel "Tunnel Vision". It was a very easy read. The novel is about a young man's attempt to stop at all the stations on the London Underground in a 20 hour period. What makes it strange is that it is on the night before his wedding, and he risks his marriage over a bet he made with a fellow train spotter.
Aside from the details of the difficulties of the trip, it is also about love and the things that we do to distract ourselves from the problems in our lives.
At one point, the character in the book was packed in a train with no room to move. Hedescribedtheexperiencebyleavingnospacesbetweenwords.
I'm curious if anyone has read this book, especially people who live in London.
Here's a link to an interview with the author of the book
Thanks. Will do.
How do I become a contenstant?!?
Take a look at the set of Mind the Gap, a game show made by our friends across the pond.
--Mark
How do I become a contestant?!?
Take a look at the set of Mind the Gap, a game show made by our friends across the pond.
--Mark
In today's Newsday, there is an article about a motorman who is suing the MTA to get benefits for domestic partners.
While this is policy for city agencies, the MTA apparently is not bound by city policy as it is a separate entity.
This separate entity status exempts the MTA and the Port Authority from other city regulations. I think some of the construction in the Trade Center were not up to city code. Likewise in the subway, I wonder if some of the stations could pass building inspections or health code inspections.
Anyway here's a link to the article
State agencies need to follow a state code (I'm not familiar with New York's yet), which is usually consistent with a general northern building code or the new international building code. The city has some idiosyncracies that cover rehabilitation, plumbing and union work, I think, but I doubt it would make much diffenence to the booths, for example. The big difference here is going to be in personnel.
Its my opinion that the cloudy waters of domestic partners must be cleared. There are benifits and liabilities that oposite sex partners have.
They must be monogomous. No more then one partner at a time and claimed as such.
They must be subject to the same devorce and community property laws.
Unfortunately, same sex partners have a historic and current predgice against them. There are many costly and expensive issues that private companies and government agencies are under pressure to withhold.
The bottom line is always dollars, who pays for this addition.
avid
A very perceptive post!
There should be no benefits for "domestic partners." It's just a solution to not having legal same-sex marriage. Same-sex marriage should be legalized.
If the Equal Rights Amendment had passed, then banning single sex marriages would have been unconstitutional.
You muddy the waters, paul. You raise the issue of medical benifits for domestic partners and morph to whether stations will pass city building or health inspection. You are assuming things that are not necessarilly true.
TD, me thinks you're off his 'radar screen'.
"TD, me thinks you're off his 'radar screen'."
I suppose that's better than being in his killfile. Needless to say, Doug, paul has said so before (aboutme being off his screen). Paul, however, has very underpowered radar. He's still on mine and if he posts something that should be questioned or commented on, I'll be there.
I think he uses the SAGE radar system. :)
No, actually Heypaul utilizes the Baird system
>>> In today's Newsday, there is an article about a motorman who is suing the MTA to get benefits for domestic partners. <<<
If this suit was just filed, he really appears to be grandstanding since the article mentions that domestic partner benefits are in the proposed contract waiting for a vote. If they are granted in the contract the lawsuit is unnecessary. I understand that he wants this to be something recognized by law so it could not be bargained away in the future, but until the state recognizes same sex unions with a domestic partnership law, I doubt that the lawsuit could be won. Once the new contract is ratified, the court will probably dismiss this suit as moot.
Tom
If memory serves, this suit was filed before the contract was seen by the membership - there was an article about it hanging in the Brighton Beach crew room back in November.
He was in my class, and I first noticed a Daily News article on this months ago.
"Put That Wall Back Up!" Demands Suburban Solon After Cash-Starved Subway Signage Dept. Refuses to Rename A-Line Stop "Bruno Station"
-- It's Monday, it's cold, and I can't resist a dare.
I have the funny feeling that this was already discussed here and I missed it since I have so many people in my killfile. Some days when I log on, there are only 5 new messages for the last 24 hours, and they are all mine.
Anyway, I was surprised to read that a Swedish company had won the contract to build a maintenance facility in Corona. I suppose they'll subcontract work out to local companies.
Swedish company wins contract for maintenance facility
My guess is it's Skanska US, a construction company, which might as well be American (the holding company is Swedish). The web site shows they did construction on Hudson-Bergen and AirTrain.
They're the bigtime ... friends of certain power brokers who don't operate out of the city ...
Skanska Secures Its Seventh Power Plant Contract in New York
They're supposedly a very highly respected company with a LOT of contracts in New York. They must write really big checks.
Oooo OOOOO ooooh, SLATTERY-Skanska. The Stockholm site doesn't say THAT. How forthcoming. When you're a development firm or the ex-mayor of New York, you list your asset under your wife's name.
[I have the funny feeling that this was already discussed here and I missed it since I have so many people in my killfile. Some days when I log on, there are only 5 new messages for the last 24 hours, and they are all mine.]
Damn! Even I must be on your killfile list! Is there ANYONE up to your standards, Paul?? LOL!
I'm proud to say that there are no names in my killfile. I have the willpower & restraint not to reply to those posts and/or posters whom I've deemed unworthy of my time.
Paul's going to be awfully confused when he ends up in his own killfile.
"Paul's going to be awfully confused when he ends up in his own killfile."
Every couple of days I put myself in my killfile. There are many days that I can't stand reading the crap that I post.
I should put anyone in Killfile if they are the following:
1. Sea-Beach line lovers
2. Republicans
3. Conservatives
4. People who send messages 3,000 miles away in California to this bulletin board.
5. School teachers (they teach us TOO MUCH about what they worship.)
6. Endorsements to the V line
7. The best subway car they think is the D-Type triplex AND it MUST run on their favorite line (see #1, above)
If their is anything else I left out, please let me know. Thanks
8. People that abhor 'The Three Stooges'
Oh, thank goodness. I was 0 for 7 and about to bid nullo, but I got in just under the wire on that one. I'm on the hitlist, nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.
Thanks about #8, NYUCK, NYUCK, NYUCK
Why, sointenly....
Hey - I resemble that remark!:)
This lefty thinks Sea Beach Fred is OK
"There are many days that I can't stand reading the crap that I post."
See, paul, there are some things we can agree on.
Svedes making Coronas is like Mexicans making Absolut or Ukrainians making pizza. TA is truly diverse. God Bless us all. CI Peter
***"Damn! Even I must be on your killfile list! Is there ANYONE up to your standards, Paul?? LOL!"***
Gee Wilikers, I feel the same way Doug and I only meet him once.
And I haven't seen the arnine cab yet and your his two wheel buddy.
:-( Sparky
If you slip certain people the right dead presidents a tour of his arnine cab could be arranged....
How about some female indian coinage multipled???
;-) Sparky
You mean Pochahontas money? Nada, Amigo...I deal in cold hard green backs...whether those Greenbacks come from Greenpoint or Greenport I don't give a dang -- as long as the bills Jefferson, Hamilton and Adams on 'em. LOL!
Just as long as them greenbacks don't come from Giant's stadium. Oooch! Ouch! :)
I think a public flogging is in order for you, sir!
Nah, I ain't into that kinda stuff. But I'll gladly bear testimony that them football guys threw the first punch if'n ya want. :)
I guess then he doesn't accept $100s.
Too bad.
Not the kind that you just printed up this morning in your basement, No.
Not the kind that you just printed up this morning in your basement, No.
Where did you find out about those?
We'll have to sneak up there ahead of time and get those stands reversed or Unca Sparky'll have a canary. :)
And gotta sign it up as a GG.
Sounds like Paul'll need the help of CI Peter to get things rigged up just right....
Just what we need, a monkey oil leak. :)
I'd LOVE to be there when Unca Sparky sits down though in there, I'll finally live down the "had to be removed with a crowbar" taunts that Paul's been giving me ever since WE went down yonder. If Unca Paul had a real computer with BVE hooked up to those stands, we'd never hear from him again!
Yo ... Train Dude! Spare stands? :)
Hanz & Franz Construction, LLC, is the contractor.
--Mark
When I first saw the topic heading, I began to wonder if IKEA had gotten into the transit business. Instead of having designations such as R62 and R142, the various railcar classes would have names such as POÄNG and BJÖRNA, and would be shipped ready-to-assemble in cardboard boxes.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
When I first saw the topic heading, I began to wonder if IKEA had gotten into the transit business. Instead of having designations such as R62 and R142, the various railcar classes would have names such as POÄNG and BJÖRNA, and would be shipped ready-to-assemble in cardboard boxes.
Of course, then the railcars would fall apart after a year or so.
Ikea railcars? LMAO!
They'd just have 3 drawings with different arrows pointing out where stuff goes on an R142. It'd just be a mass of lines and numbers, complete chaos. MTA officials would be forced to wander through their stores, checking out all the railcars and eventually being forced to buy some, just to get out of there.
Then you'd get it home, only to discover that the instructions are in Swedish, with just diagrams for those of us not from Scandanavia. None of the pieces fit, and of course, you're supposed to drill your own holes. Even translated the instructions would read something along the lines of, "Insert IGBT into carbody, but not before removing track power from the 3rd rail shoes, next seek medical help for massive electrocution" finally you'd get to the bottom and it'd have a cryptic instruction to keep the old cars around, just in case. Within a year there would be redbirds back on the road, after the Ikea cars disintigrated right on the track.
Wdobner: I love it! It's like Heathkits en Espanol. #5 crews learn everyday from 'hands on experience' supplemented only by new torque specifications. Now if only Bombardier could come close to what Ikea does to supply missing/broken parts. CI Peter
Heh, if you've ever put together this furniture (or O'Ssullivan or Bush), it should come with a college degree!
(Use nut "X" and screw "J" and assemble in part "D". Then affix sticker "C" in hole "2" and press firmly on indicator "F" ....)
--Mark
SONY VTR manuals have them all beat ... "insert tab B into the crimping place" ... the rest of the page is entirely in Katakana ...
CORRECTION! (just looked again)
SONY VTR manuals have them all beat ... "insert tab B into the crimping place WHILE SCREWING" ... the rest of the page is entirely in Katakana ...
"Heh, if you've ever put together this furniture (or O'Ssullivan or Bush), it should come with a college degree!
(Use nut "X" and screw "J" and assemble in part "D". Then affix sticker "C" in hole "2" and press firmly on indicator "F" ....)"
I understand that O'Sullivan had a kit to build an R-9 cab. Don't know anyone who bought it but I understand that if you didn't follow the directions carefully, the brake valve and master controller would end up on the wrong side.
Right, and when I called about it, they had discontinued the model :)
--Mark
165 Million to build a carwash in Corona. Let us remember WW2 history......Swedish Steel......neutral......right. Vische Fraunce......neutral......right. We have a lot of skilled people in TA that can do many kinds of work and TA outsizes. I can paint yellow lines! CI peter
The '$165 million carwash' is a new shop that will replace the current one, which is sinking into the marshland on which it sits. The same thing happened to Flushing Depot next door, which is why it was replaced by what is now called Casey Stengel Depot.
David
So where will this new facility be located? Is it on the vacant land east of the existing Corona Yards or is this the new facility planned for Sunnyside?
I believe much of the current facility will be demolished for the new one. Sunnyside? Where'd you get that thought?
As for extending the land, it's all good. The 7 line needs it.
The new facility will be built on vacant land near the existing shop. The new car wash will be built where the old shop now stands. Incidently, the plans also call for a new lead for trains to leave the yard heading directly towards Main Street.
Really? Train Dude, where will this lead meet up with the mainline track? It'd be interesting to see it when it's done. Will it be 1-way or 2-way?
The drawing made it look as though the lead for the yard would come off the main line just after the water - south side. Of course the drawing is now over 2 years old and the plans may have changed. Leads are always 2-way but I assume you meant will it be one or two tracks. It looked like two tracks in that version of the plan.
Excellent... I can't wait for groundbreaking for to occur. I just hope the walkway above the main yard is preserved. That's why I like Corona so much. You can look at so much!
2 Major events happened on this date....
January 13th, 2001.....Metro opens the final five stations of the original planned 103 mile system....These stations were Congress Heights, Southern Avenue, Nayler Road, Suitland and Branch Avenue on the Green Line.
January 13th, 1982.....First Passenger Fatalities. An Orange Line train backing up on a "cross-over" switch between Smithsonian & Federal Triangle was pulled into an abutment seperating the inbound & outbound tracks. The accident resulted in 3 deaths and 25 injuries. The accident was on a day in which the federal government was shut down due to a significant snowstorm and was also preceded by an Air Florida jet plummeting into the Potomac River after hitting the 14th Street Bridge about 30 minutes earlier.
On a personal note, that is one of those days when I remember exactly where I was when I heard the news.
Mark
I remember 1/13/82 all too well. I was living in Arlington, Virginia at the time. I worked for a tour bus company in northeast DC near the Amtrak engine facility. I went to pick up my paycheck, and drove backhome to Arlington. I drove across the 14th Street Bridge.
When I got home, I walked across the street to grab a bite to eat, then went back home and turned on the news. And the Air Florida crash was on every channel....it happened right after I drove across the bridge!
I thought, what the hell, didn't have to work the next day, so I'd walk down to Ballston station and take Metro over to the Pentagon and see what's. Didn't have any problem getting to Rosslynn, but waited probably 45 minutes for a train down to the Pentagon. That's when I found out about the Metro accident.
It was eerie when I got to the Pentagon station and went out and trudged through the snow to the river. Helicopters circling around the top couple feet of the green and blue 737 tail fin. A sight I will never forget.
Raising the transit fare has been the subject of much politicizing since the twin whammies of the budget crisis and the new (not yet ratified) TWU-TA contract. In pondering the issue, I came to realize that despite it being the officially posted cost per ride, the $1.50 fare does not really exist for most people. In reality, for most people, the actual fare per ride is between $1.04 and $1.37 per ride for most NYers. The question is, if NYCT were to eliminate all fare incentives, restoring the cost per ride to $1.50, then would this negate the need for a fare increase?
Probably not, because much of the increase in ridership stimulated by the discounts would go away. Lots of people take extra transit trips now because there is no incremental cost.
The 14th St bus line, for example, has seen a huge ridership increase as more people from Alphabet City take the bus to the subway instead of walking. Many wouldn't actually pay an extra $1.50 for the bus ride.
"The 14th St bus line, for example, has seen a huge ridership increase as more people from Alphabet City take the bus to the subway instead of walking. Many wouldn't actually pay an extra $1.50 for the bus ride."
Another example is that many upper East Siders now take the bus across the park and transfer to downtown trains on CPW at 81/86/96. Taking away the free subway/bus transfer would put them back on the Lex down to 59/51/42 -- which really doesn't need the extra people
CG
Ah, but if that happened, the people would still be paying the same price, but the TA would be able to cut back on some buses because there would be less people riding.
I would rather see a fare increase than the loss of the discounts.
No, the fare discounts HAS brought the system to where it is now & taking that away may and most likely would cause a decrease in ridership. I'll take the fare increase WHILE keeping the incentives over losing the fare discounts completely i.e. the unlimited cards.
No, the discounts are a major marketing tool and use incentive.
And where does the time honored token come in. Will it become extinct at the next fare increase ?
Yesterday at Penn Sta. (A)(C)(E) I checking my Metrocard at the booth reader when someone asked the agent for three tokens. You figure with Metrocards and MVM's it would be simpler and quicker to buy rather than wait on line for tokens. Some people still wear by them and won't change their ways.
Bill "Newkirk"
he $1.50 fare does not really exist for most people. In reality, for most people, the actual fare per ride is between $1.04 and $1.37 per ride for most NYers.
So you raise the fare to $2.00, and the discounts will bring it closer to $1.50 to $1.75. Same Difference, with the incentives left intact.
Elias
I have constantly proposed eliminating the 15$ metrocard discount and then raising the price of passes some %20.
If you eliminated the passes many people just wouldn't use transit and either take the LIRR/MNRR that do have passes or just drive. Bulk users of the subway should get a discount. The passes allow people to use the subway as an alternative to a car (like running errands to several locations). Eliminate passes and you'll drastically increase traffic.
The 15$ metrocard does not really count as a bulk use as you can keep the value on some card indefinitly so I am all for its discount elimination.
I would also raise the cost of a token to like 1.75 or 2$ as a surcharge for token processing and handling.
Probably not.
One advantage to MTA in offering incentives is that people then tend to buy in bulk, which produces a much steadier and more predictable stream of cash for the agency. Get rid of all the incentives and you get rid of that too.
I wrote to MTA recently and suggested two things:
1) Approve the Straphangers' suggestion to provide a two-week Metrocard, to increase the market for Metrocard and encourage more people to use it. Now, MTA does not have to accept the Straphangers' suggested price - it can set a higher price. But the concept is sound.
2) Offer ever-bigger discounts for more bulk buying. What about a 12-month subscription to unlimited riding for $695, paid up-front of course. Or, putting MetroCards on VISA and Mastercard, where MTA automatically charges your credit card each month. This creates a very stable, predictable cash stream and also encourages ridership.
3) Offer an Insured MetroCard with an additional premium (a proposal I adapted from previous ideas batted around on Subtalk threads a while back).
These ideas can be implemented at any base fare level, of course. It will be interesting to see if anything happens...
According to the 1935 Red Book Guide to New York, the fastest BMT express run to Coney Island from Times Square was the Sea Beach at 44 minutes.
The West End Express clocked in at 47 minutes, and the Brighton, the Brighton........
The last stop was Brighton Beach at 38 minutes. With the change to the local, two stops at Ocean Parkway and West 8th Street, and slow going between West 8th and Coney Island, I'd doubt you'd be able to get to CI in 6 minutes.
See what Fred and I have been trying to tell you guys.
See what Fred and I have been trying to tell you guys.
But you haven't listened to what we said:
The Sea Beach Express would CUT service to the stations on the Sea Beach line, and in no way benefit actual Sea Beach riders. The trains would shoot by, as the "local" passengers wait in the cold for the next train which would be half the service they used to have.
"But you haven't listened to what we said"
I think it's you you haven't listened to Fred.
The best overall level of service for the most people is not the concern of the nostalgic railfan.
All Fred wants is to get on the Sea Beach express at 57th St. and race through to Coney Island in 8 quick stops (and then return). Then he can die happy.
He doesn't ever plan to LIVE on the Sea Beach Line again, after all. Freezing commuters waiting 16 minutes for the next local are not his issue to deal with.
It was 44 minutes local from 59th Street to Coney Island.
All I want is the Sea Beach back on the bridge and express to 57th.
I really think it's great that you can read minds. The only problem is that you're so far out in foul territory that you aren't even in the ballpark. You don't wait 16 minutes if you put the Sea Beach on the bridge and send them within five or six minutes of each other. You don't have the West End and the Brighton on the same side of the bridge and that would free up more space for the N train. It could be done. Yes, I do not plan to live near the Sea Beach again, but I do have a strong loyalty to my train and I want the best for it. And, if you have been hearing me, even you cannot deny that the TA has given the Sea Beach the royal shaft the past two decades. If you can't admit it you have your head somewhere it is doing you no good.
I admit that the Sea Beach has not been treated well by NYCT, though for understandable reasons (like bridge cracks) that weren't under their control.
But you are actually agreeing with my assessment of your mind. Your loyalty is to the train, not to the overall welfare of all the subway passengers who live in South Brooklyn. That's not reprehensible for a railfan at all. It's not your job to make all of South Brooklyn happy.
Therefore when someone says you're not listening to their point that your ideas are no good for certain folks in South Brooklyn, I just noted that that isn't your concern.
I admit to some snideness in my posting. But I really see no reason why you shouldn't advocate what you advocate. Some people here advocate for passengers. You advocate for a train.
Guilty as charged. I do love the Sea Beach and my memories of my youth riding that train are some of the most pleasant experiences of my life. You remember when April 19th comes. That will be the 56th Anniversary of the day I first rode the BMT#4 Triplex. Then you can get back in my good graces by helping celebrate that occasion. How about it?
Only if you come back East, great fares now too on Jet Blue and other carriers.
There is no need for 6 minute headway on the Sea Beach, there is NOT THAT MUCH TRAFFIC ON THE TRAIN to warrent it, 12-15 minutes is good enough,
You will be lucky if it gets back on the bridge or becomes a express again.
I will be lucky indeed. I'm having bad vibes about what the TA is going to do in 2004. It belongs on the Manny B and I'm hoping the powers-that-be see it that way.
AlM is right. Even under the best of circumstances, ridership on the Sea Beach couldn't possibly support 10-12 tph on a local plus an additional 10-12 tph on an express. Even if those trains could all fit over the bridge into Manhattan (since you don't want any of them in the tunnel), some other lines are much more crowded than the N and, if the NYCT has money to spend on service improvements, that money has no business going to the N.
Your concern is not what's best for the people who ride the subway system. Your concern is your nostalgia for the Sea Beach line. I can empathize -- it's one of my favorite lines to ride, especially on the express track, even though I've never lived in Brooklyn. But NYCT's concern is what's best for the people who ride the subway system, and those of us here who scoff at the idea of a Sea Beach express are thinking along those lines (pardon the pun). The subway system is a transportation system, not a museum, and NYCT's task is to offer the best transportation system possible with the available funding -- a task which entails not using the Sea Beach express tracks for regularly scheduled service.
HA HA HA live in the present. 1955 is long gone Fred
Fred is still kicking himself for not being in the city when dem Bums won the World Series that year.:)
My point was not using the middle tracks on the Sea Beach. It was restoring it to it's former glory along the Manny B and the Broadway Express.
Did anyone stop to think that maybe ridership would increase if the service improved?
If I still lived on Kings Highway halfway between the N and the F, I'd take the F because the N via the Tunnel and Broadway Local would just be brutal. We used to take the N up to Midtown instead of the F because it was via the Bridge and Express.
That's all Fred and I want.
Sea Beach Lover: Stop wasting your breath. For some reason our friend Dave Greenberger doesn't seem to understand or get it where the Sea Beach is concerned.
Former glory? This is a transit system, not a museum; whatever glory you find exists by accident. NYCT should do whatever best serves the riding public systemwide with its limited funds. If sending the N over the bridge would best serve the riding public systemwide, then the N should be sent over the bridge. If sending the N through the tunnel would best serve the riding public systemwide, then the N should be sent through the tunnel. What's done to the N has impacts on the rest of the system, and most riders even of the N don't venture as far as the Sea Beach section of the line, so this isn't simply a matter of polling Sea Beach area residents. I am confident that NYCT will arrive at a reasonable service plan. I am also confident that none of us participating in this thread know enough of the relevant ridership statistics to reach a definitive conclusion.
The Sea Beach has low ridership because it passes through low-density neighborhoods and it doesn't have much area to feed off of before another line becomes closer. The busy lines either serve very densely populated neighborhoods (e.g., the mainline IRT and the 7 local) or connect with busy feeder bus routes (e.g., the 7 express, E, and F).
Why do you view this as a competition between lines? The lines complement each other. If you lived halfway between the N and the F, you'd use the F to get to midtown -- but you'd use the N to get to lower Manhattan. Isn't it convenient that the area between the Sea Beach and the Culver has direct access to two different sections of Manhattan? Personally, I think the current arrangement is great, with a Broadway express (W), a Broadway local (N), and a 6th Avenue local (F) all nearby, with supplemental rush hour service to Nassau Street (M). I wish I had such variety! All I have on my line is West Side IRT local service; if I walk ten minutes, I can get direct access to 6th Avenue (but only as far as 34th Street, and only on weekdays) and 8th Avenue. As a practical matter, I usually have to make at least one transfer per trip.
David:
The way it is now - I'd have two locals to Manhattan.
The way it used to be - at least there'd be a local and an express - and the N Sea Beach was the express.
My neighborhood was pretty densely populated.
And which neighborhood was that?
According to the 2000 Census statistics (particularly Table PL-4B), my census tract had 259.0 persons per acre in 2000. Nearby census tracts are similarly densely populated.
I don't know your census tract (browse through the maps to find it), but I looked up a few along the Sea Beach and the densest I found had 119.8 persons per acre -- less than half the density of my census tracks. A few nearby tracts had just over 100 ppa; most had less.
I wouldn't call that densely populated in the context of neighborhoods served by the subway.
Gravesend - Bensonhurst, in Brooklyn. It's not going to be as densely populated as a neighborhood in the city, but it's not a suburb.
Look up the numbers and post them, please.
The neighborhood gets a tremendous degree of subway service for its density. I'm sure it's denser than most suburbs -- but most suburbs don't have subway service at all.
Not if they came at intervals of five minutes. Now don't tell me that it couldn't be done because it can.
But that was 1935! You CANNOT ddo that now, I understand the misery N riders went through over the years, you saw what happened with the NX in 1967-1968, it skips ALL the Sea Beach stations, rendering it useless. Special expresses should only be reserved for summer weekends that's it and even then I'm not so sure it would work, so its only use right now is for West End GO's.
BTW, they should consider weekend expresses for the Brighton line in the summertime.
That was 1935, and this is 2002 now so try going from Times Square to Coney Island in 44 minutes on your SLOW-BEACH EXPRESS VIA. MONTAGUE RAT-NELL, AND YOU CANNOT DO THAT NOW, AT LEAST WE CAN USE THE B68 BUS TO CONEY ISLAND, YOU HAVE NOTHING TO GET TO CONEY ISLAND DIRECTLY FROM 86TH STREET. That's why the M, N and R line go through:
Montague's
Numerous
Rats
BTW: Twice as more riders use the Brighton line than the line representating the 14th letter of the alaphabet.
Another plus for the Brighton, good ridership. Back on this subject, the Sea Beach loses out once again, lets compare and contrast the 2 lines nowadays.
N-Sea Beach local, 4 Av express, Montague, Broadway local,Astoria
Q-Brighton local & express, Manny-B, Broadway express
Unless the N returns to the bridge in 2004[which would be nice], its going to stay like this for the forseeable future. The Brighton has heavy ridership, has been almost since it opened so it makes sense for the Q to go over the bridge now. Also the N's frequency dropped over the years also, further contrinbuting to its decline and the Sea Beach is between the F and M/W at one point.
As for Coney Island, the way things are going, the F and Q platforms will be finished at the same time or POSSIBLY before the N is; and N riders do not have a direct one seat ride to Coney Island, they have to transfer at New Utrecht Av & walk up many stairs to catch the W, I still say they could have put 2 or 3 buses and have a shuttle bus but the W transfer negates that and would make it useless. The F has its own shuttle bus and the Q has extended B68 service; but N riders getting off at 86 St could walk to Avenue X to catch the F shuttle bus, its not that far away.
I wonder why the F shuttle bus isn't just extended a few blocks more to the N.
"According to the 1935 Red Book Guide to New York, the fastest BMT express run to Coney Island from Times Square was the Sea Beach at 44 minutes."
Was that the Sea Beach Express or Coney Island Express ? Also in 1935 there wasn't the level of time signals and wheel detectors we have today.
Bill "Newkirk"
It said Sea Beach Express, and it made all local stops from 59th Street in Brooklyn to Coney Island.
It was Express on 4th Ave and in Manhatten.
On Sundays and Nights in the 40s and 50s The Brighton Local ran express in Manhatten and Local in Brooklyn and stated Brighton Local.
Wasn't that the Theater Special that ran via bridge? The pre-Chrystie St. QB evolved from that route.
Thanks Sea Beach lover. At least when it comes to the Sea Beach there are a few of us who know what the hell we are talking about. I like that it took 44 minutes to get to Coney Island. My favorite train and my lucky number. A great combo. And, yes, the Brighton was third to get to Coney. No way they could come even close to six minutes from where they started at the Brighton Beach Station.
Here's something to think about. If a rail tunnel is ever built to connect with the 65th Street yards to New Jersey, the Sea Beach r.o.w. could have potential as being part of an interstate gateway! This may sound farfetched but it's obvious that there has to be new railroad connections in the area. And with the link up with the LIRR and the Hell Gate route, this seems to be have real possibilities.
Here's something to think about. If a rail tunnel is ever built to connect with the 65th Street yards to New Jersey, the Sea Beach r.o.w. could have potential as being part of an interstate gateway! This may sound farfetched but it's obvious that there has to be new railroad connections in the area. And with the link up with the LIRR and the Hell Gate route, this seems to be have real possibilities.
Take a look at posting #433749, I have made up my mind to do this Killfile. lol
How right you are! In the early fifties, my friend and I used to wait on the Times Square platform to test the red book's times. We would memorize the numbers on the first and last cars of a West End Express and catch the next Sea Beach Express (usually with a Brighton Express in between). About half the time, we arrived at Stillwell before the West End Express. We waited under the "pie plate" door markers for the three express services: White on Red for Sea Beach, White on Green for West End, and Black on White for Brighton (if memory serves me correctly). The Sea Beach made up the time because in midday, it bypassed Myrtle and DeKalb, and made two less stops than the West End between 36th St. and Coney Island. Those were great times!
I see you just made Fred's day. It's obvious that you mentioned very little about my line, let alone the comparison if the Brighton line was faster than your Sea-Beach. I guess you're a right-wing Republican WASP too!
A fact is a fact, but actually, the Brighton Line always was, and is, my favorite! The "7&1" in my handle stands for the IRT Flushing line and the BMT Brighton line, which were the two lines I rode and loved the most.
I spent many happy summers at Sheepshead Bay, Manhattan Beach, and Brighton Beach. I went to movies at the Kingsway on Kings Highway.
Lundy's, Mrs. Stahl's Knishes, and Nathan's were frequent weekend haunts.
Only the Brighton line had express service and open cut, el and embankment segments. There was nothing like it!
I always thought they should have run the Brighton Express to Coney Island during its hours, and terminate the local at Brighton Beach. Then there would have been a real race! They could have done this by using the crossovers between Sheepshead Bay and Brighton Beach stations.
Gene, it's appreciated to be on my side. And you have a lot of company too who love the "Express to Ebbits". #1 Brighton Exp Bob, Flatbush41, Q Brightliner, Bill "Newkirk", many othere here. Guess we outnumber Fred's Sea Beach people by a margin of nearly 3 to 1.
The Original (7) was the Franklin Shuttle, which ran on the Brighton on Summer Sundays during the 40s and 50s
I remember it. It was comprised of four or five standard cars. During the summer it ran express. The window signs read "Express Coney Island" and "Express Franklin Av." When I was a subway novice, I once mistook it for the Brighton Express, and wound up at Franklin Avenue instead of 34th Street Manhattan.
Yhey ran 3 or 6 cars depending on traffic, and ran Sundays only, so you never could take a Express to Manhatten without changing trains
I know that it ran on Sundays most of the time, but I am certain there were times in the late 40's to mid-1950's when it ran on other days, because the time I screwed up and took it to Franklin Av, when I went back to Prospect Park, I actually was able to catch an express. I do stand correct on the train being either 3- or 6-cars. Thanks, Bob.
I meant I do stand CORRECTED, not correct. Thanks, Bob.
On Sundays when the Express did not run, the Local did run via Bridge and Express to Manhatten, so what ypu thought was the Express, in a way was, but it was a Local inb Brooklyn.
Brighton Express Mon-Sat 530AM-910PM(Last Train from Times Sq 914PM) Via Bridge
Brighton Local All Times 24/7 EVia Bridge and Express in Manhatten when Express did not run. My Uncle was a conductor for 25 years on the Brighton and he remembers the schedule well
Bob, I am fully aware that the Brighton local used the bridge when the express was not running. However, in this case it was the express, and it was a triplex and not standards. I also know it wasn't a Sunday, because my aunt wouldn't let me go riding on the weekends when I visited her during the summers.
It may have happened during the very late 1940's. If you check old BMT service maps, trains ran from Franklin Av to Coney Island using the express tracks every weekday, except PM rush hours, I believe.
Hey Kool D, as I used to always tell me players before we played a baseball game, it is not quantity that counts but rather quality. We may be outnumbered but the Sea Beachers are loaded with quality. And if you will permit me a little show of pride, my mutterings with my boys payed off. In 23 years of coaching baseball in the Arcadia area, we won 87.4 percent of our games---693-100. We Sea Beachers are winners, which is more than I can say for a couple of Brightoners who I will not deign to mention. You figure it out. It would make for a nice challenge.
Thhhhh Razberries
"#1 Brighton Exp Bob, Flatbush41, Q Brightliner, Bill "Newkirk", many othere here. Guess we outnumber Fred's Sea Beach people by a margin of nearly 3 to 1."
We can add Gene 7 & 1 to the mix. The followers of the Brighton Line are fast becoming a dynasty. THE BRIGHTON BOYS RULE !!!
P.S. you forgot Paul Matus, DougBMTman an a couple of others here who call the #1 BMT Line, their second home.
Bill "Newkirk"
And as long as the D train makes it back to Brighton Beach, I'm one also. Hope nobody minds. :)
I'm an impartial A fan who likes both routes in question. The N will always be a sentimental favorite because the very first subway train I ever rode on was an N.
I was always rather impartial as well, but here on subtalk, home of the 76TH street station, some folks have adopted certain lines and woe be to others that diss them. Yo Unca Fred, buy a NAME PLATE. Heh.
Selkirk, you read my mind, which on most days can be done in three or four seconds. I plan on buying a new car very soon, my first since 1986. I plan on getting a special license plate. You know what it is going to be already, don't you? 4SBFRED!!!
Heh. You're *so* predictable ... by the way ... no joke here, I swear ... TALK TO YOUR TAX ATTORNEY ... again, NO HOSING or fooling around, but our "Shrub" made a tax deal which makes SUV's for small business use (I'm DEAD serious, this is legit) cheaper than buying a new car as a result of the tax liabilities ... we were about to buy a new Saturn to replace the old, but it appears that if we buy a LAND TANK, we get an IMMEDIATE $9,000 savings on taxes, plus next to nothing on the next four years ... whoda thunk it that pissing away dinosaur juice would have caused an SUB to cost less than a frigging Nissan? AGAIN, I'm not kidding! Wowsers!
Vanity plates, however, are STILL not deductable, but thanks for playing. Moo! :)
Strange as it may seem your timing is perfect. I'm supposed to talk to a tax attorney this weekend concerning my run for the local school board. I will bring the subject up with him. It does seem somewhat bizarre to me, though, that there could be a tremendous tax incentive for buying one of those tanks. What the heck, a penny saved is a penny earned. Right my Libertarian friend? (See I got it right for a change).
Bless ya for understanding that us "woodspersons" ain't political pansies. :)
The "SUV depreciation bonus" is *ONLY* for corporations, doubtful you'd qualify, but if we were to eschew a $10,000 *car* for a $23,000 land tank, Unca Sammy sez that we'd make out by $6000 in our POCKETS. Kinda hard to refuse that even if we have to pay for the GAS. But I just can't stop thinking that there's something TERRIBLY wrong with this "give the terrorists GAS money" ... just reminds me of that "war on drugs" thing and its futility and mixed messages.
We're probably STILL going to buy the Saturn replacement, but ya gotta admit, Three THOUSAND in cash as our business suffers *IN CASH* could help pay the rent this month, even if it PHUCKS the environment. I'd RATHER have the car in all sincerity, but if Shrub DEMANDS that I buy a land yacht and pays us $6,000, then I'd be a schmuck NOT to. But I'd RATHER have the Saturn to be sincere ... if only we had an economy, and didn't need the GOP handout, I'd be more inclined to be "moral" ... but HEY ... these ARE republican times. No offense, but it BOTHERS me ... :(
Well, at this time I am leaning towards a Mustang. I once had a 1969 Camaro 307, dusk blue and a beaut. Had it for 17 years until I rode it into the ground. I have been driving a Toyota Carolla since 1986. My wife, my friends, my mechanic, they all say to me I should buy a new car. I wanted a certain green color I saw last year but the 2003's do not come in that color. I am expecting a call on a metallic blue that I will settle for. Who knows? I might be able to look like a young turk very soon.
I hear the same thing: people telling me I should buy a new car. My Jeep is now at 478,000 miles and counting, it still runs, it's paid for, and I cen still get parts for it. I'm keeping it.
I get the message Steve. You can get very attached to a car if you have it long enough. It becomes almost a sad event when you trade it in on a newer model. I have foregone new cars twice already so my daughter would get the new one and I keep the old---in 1996 and 2002. Maybe, though it is time to join the club.
Fred still drives around his is old Toyota, smogging up the S>G> Valley.
I'm still up to my ears in debt from all those Flyer trains I've bought in recent years. No way anyone would approve a car loan for me right now. Besides, registration doesn't cost all that much, even with vanity plates. Plus Cherokees are popular out here. As I said, as long as I can get parts for it, I'm hanging on to it.
One of the guys I work with has said he wants to go for a ride when it hits 500,000. By my calculations, I should reach that milestone sometime in October.
Another of those amusing things about California - public transit is oft frowned upon, and you ARE what you drive. :\
So ... a HORMONEmobile, eh? :)
I'm keeping my 8AVEXP plates no matter what. Moo.
Does that mean Son of a B+tch Fred?
I became an A fan for life on September 23, 1967.
Interesting day, September 23, 1957. Henry Aaron hit a two run homer to win a game and clinch the National League title for the then Milwaukee Braves, their first. It was a Monday, by the way.
Oh, I just saw I was off my ten years. You are talking about 1967. OK, I am ok with that one, too. September 23, 1967 was a Saturday and I remember that my college decided to have its hello dance one week later than normal for some strange reason. On the 30th they held it and I met my wife. Tomorrow will be her birthday.
Happy birthday to Linda!
Too bad I don't remember it. I was all of ten months and four days old then.:)
Guess we outnumber Fred's Sea Beach people by a margin of nearly 3 to 1
Yes, well I heard that they were going to re-introduce First Class on the Sea Beach Line for the 20 riders, with comfy seats, free newspapers and at seat refreshments.
I also heard that they are going to pipe in the Mike Savage show on the PA system 24/7.
and pictures of the Bush Twins advertising Jim Beam
Hey Gino, good job. However, I'm sure the Brighton boys will find a way around those facts. You see, it does'nt suit them so they will try and change things the way Gore and the Florida Supreme Court tried to do in Florida in 2000.
Gore did not change anything GORE WON THE ELECTION. The 5-4 Republicans on the US Supreme Court gave Bushman the election.
Hey, please, somebody stick a sock in this guy's mouth. I'm hearing that same old boring tune again.
But it is the truth. Did you know the 2 greatest Republican Presidents Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt would be called Liberals today
Teddy Roosevelt HIT big business. And Lincoln worked against the immoral ignorance of racism, positions directly opposite to those taken by today's Republican party.
I hope Fred sees this
Roosevelt brought 44 suits against illegal combinations and brought down the Northern Securities Company which was trying to gain a monopoly on railroads and land from Chicago to the Pacific Ocean. However, Roosevelt was very pro- big business as long as they operated under the laws of the land. If they didn't then it was lights out, but Roosevelt was very conservative in a lot of his ideas and so was my hero Lincoln. The misnomer is that if you are a Conservative that means you are oblivious to the hopes and aspirations of the common people. One who spent 35 years of his life working for others and was a strong supporter of civil rights and the right of workers to belong to strong unions doesn't fit that description. I'll leave it up to you to ascertain who I am talking about.
No they wouldn't. They both had very conservative precepts but you could call them compassionate, and you should know better than anyone that on certain issues I;m just as progressive as you are. You spread the tripe that I am a diehard reactionary which is bull @$%^. A guy who belongs to the AFL-CIO and has my ideas on education is not a reactionary. Stop the bs. And by the way I found that my post on 6019 and 6095 were used on both trains, yours and mine. 6112 was on yours.
nO YOU ARE JUST WEIRD, BUT YOU ARE A GREAT FRIEND ANYWAY IN SPITE OF YOUR POLITICAL VIEWS.
Weird? Guilty as charged. If my wife even thinks that what defense do I have.
Our system has some great mosaics. I would say the Canarsie Line has some of the greatest detail, aside from maybe the Contract 2 stations (although Contract 1 is pretty amazing also with many of the bas-reliefs).
So what are your favorites?
-My favorite name tablet is the "TWENTY-EIGHTH STREET" tablets on the Lexington Line. There are both bas-relief and a great repro mosiac one (done aparently when they added the crossunder many years ago).
-My favorite "ceiling band identifier" for lack of a better word (example the M's in a band at Myrtle, 66's at 66th, etc) is the "33rd Street Eagles" ironically from the station right next to my choice of favorite name tablet.
33 St on the 6 has one of the best mosaic tablets of all time, the Eagle leaves a powerful symbol. Too bad stuff like this is not made anymore.
The best mosaic, the the BMT standard (and depicted in three paintings at 36th Street station, Design, Comstruction and Completion). The diagonal lines formed to make a diamond, with a circle inside are the best BMT mosaics (and it's barely surviving at Dekalb Ave/Flatbush Ave station, better seen at 36th and Pacific Street stations)
Best IRT Mosaic: The Fulton Steamship at Fulton St/Lex Ave station, the Beaver at Astor Place (along with the best subway entrance on the Uptown side)
Best IND Mosaic: A new IND style MADISON SQUARE GARDEN directional sign at 34th Street/8th ave since the present Garden site opened in 1968, 36 years after that station opened.
My 2 cents.
The funky mosaic at Lex IRT 28th St., which replaced damaged original panels, and also the original IRT extensions of Atlantic & Borough Hall reproduced in tile the original terra cotta ornaments in beautiful detail.
By the way, some of the mosaics at Pacific St ARE reproductions, as will be those to be added at DeKalb. They match the original ones perfectly. The only way to tell along a station wall if the mosaics are original or not is if the while tiles are flush or not. If the white tiles are further out then the mosaics are original (see BMT Cortlandt St.).
Well.....never say never! Grueby Faience still lives and they made (partly from the original moulds), the beautiful reproduction terra cotta plaques you now see at 66th Street-Lincoln Center. You can tell it's not the 1904 one cause it's in the extension part of the station and bears "LC" for Lincoln Center, something that wasn't there in 1904. And over the last four years or so, a level of tilesmithing that hasn't been seen since Squire Vickers' day has taken hold. Just look at some of the fine tabletwork that has been recreated (Lorimer Street, Grand Central 4/5/6 n.end of N/B platform, etc.), every tiny bit of tile in place and the proper color too.
Oh yes, my mosaic: HANDS DOWN: It's Montrose on the "L". Nothing comes close, not even Wilson and Bushwick-Aberdeen. Dreamy pastels floating on a sea of mauve, raspberry and grape. A sherbet sundae in porcelain. Absolutely lovely. Honourable mention: Borough Hall (4/5), 33rd Street (6), 116th st-Columbia (1/9), 14th St-Union Sq (N/Q/slant Q/R/W), 5th Avenue (N/R/W), Church Ave (2,5), Clark St (2,3) there are many others too.
At the NYTM store, Lee Stookey's great book "Subway Ceramics" can be bought for $15, a steal. It's in colour too. I thought it was out of print, but they did a second edition in 1994. Great book. I highly recommend it.
wayne
So far that makes three of us that agree that Montrose Avenue on the L has the best mosaics in the system.
Thanks for recommending the book, Wayne. I'll check it out on my next outing to the Museum.
Brian Cudahy also agrees (in Under the Sidewalks of New York) that Montrose has the best mosaics, if I remember rightly.
Oh, the company is still alive, that's good! I thought the era for making mosaics & tablets were long gone but I guess I was wrong. I'm glad the MTA realized that they can restore beauty to stations rather than destroying it and changing it all up.
I recommend it to! It's great, and gives you a nice little history of many of the station's mosaics.
See here:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=433875
My favorite name tablet is Bleecker Street. The blue is just so cool.
Hey, has anyone see this strange Mosaic at Lorimer street station that shows a picture of a grey rock, on one side of it, it says "faith", and on the other, it says "fate". This is something you never see anywhere else. You can see this unique mosaic when you're transfering from the (G) to the (L), or vice-versa.
Has anyone seen it?
Yeah, guess I have.
Strange indeed but its unique.
Yeah, that's the one. Can anyone figure out what it means?
You can't tell? : )
It's a philosophy of sorts. Given the rock can fall in either direction, it's a matter of faith (believing yourself) or fate (where somehow, things are meant for you the way they are.
It's a play on words, like the other mosaics in that station:
(Okay, I'm not sure I get the pun in the last one.)
My favorite mosaics are on the L line, and of those I would have to say the ones at Montrose Avenue always catch my eye. The mosaics there never seem to lose their luster.
Montrose was exactly what I was thinking of when I said the Canarsie Line's mosaics are among the best in the system. Montrose sure does shine. The others are all pretty nice also. The Canarsie Line comes in second as the greatest station decoration after the original IRT Contract one and two stations.
It can't compete with 33rd/Park, but I do have a think for the restored Main St/Roosevelt Ave mosaic.
:-) Andrew
Let me just say this. 8 Av. on the (L) had the biggest improvement when it comes to style. It's a very nice lookin' station. I remember when it looked like crap, so plain, so boring. It had a similar look to the East New York station on the (A)/(C). The Mosiacs around the "8" look great. Now if only the TA can do the same with that nasty Bedford Av. station.
I also like what they did at 8th Ave. They changed a complete IND looking station, and changed into a BMT station, like the rest of the line. They did a similar nice job on the JMZ at Fulton and BRoad. Those were also built like "IND" stations. Now they look like the rest on the Nassau/Centre Line. I think Fulton had a maroon IND look, and Broad had a yellow IND look, as originally built. At Bedford, since the mosaics are already there, any renovation would probably be done like they did at Union Square. 6th Ave could use a rehab also.
There's one other place (that I know of) that has IND tiles in a non-IND station. That's on a platform extension at the IRT Times Square on the 7. It's short, but it counts. Anyone know of any others?
The thing with the Mosaics at Bedford Av. is that they're so dark and dull. In the other (L) stations the mosaics are nice and colorful. Maybe because Bedford Av. is so dirty and has corroded walls, you can't see it. Look at this picture to see what I mean:
Bedford Av.
Anyway, I don't think it's that the tiles are ugly at Bedford, I think it's that it's so filthy, that all the color is lost. Union Square was pretty bad also, and look at how nice those mosaic strips came out. I think Bedford just needs a good cleaning.
The thing with the Mosaics at Bedford Av. is that they're so dark and dull. In the other (L) stations the mosaics are nice and colorful. Maybe because Bedford Av. is so dirty and has corroded walls, you can't see it. Look at this picture to see what I mean:
Bedford Av.
Today after I drop off my rentel car at Nework Airport. I decided to take my dauter on the Air Train. She loved the ride trains(no thanks to my Farther who took her on her first train ride). Well, while looking at the other set going by, I knowest that thay are numbered 1-7 with the set number first. Then I saw there were only 6 section per train and that section 2 was missing. Was there a resion for missing the 2, or dose someone dose not know how to count up there at Air Train? Any information would be good.
Thanks
Robert
My guess is that the trainsets are capable of being lengthened by the one "missing" car. I seem to remember that there were extra sets of platform doors at all of the stations that aren't used by the trains in their current length.
I had to work yesterday. I left my office at about 3:40 p.m. intending to take the 4:15 out of Flatbush to Cedarhurst. When I got there the platform was deserted, no trains on any of the tracks. A guy wearing an LIRR vest told me that a truck had gotten into an accident near the tunnel exit portal and ended up on the tracks, stopping all service in and out of Flatbush Avenue. I was sent to Penn where I had to wait for the 5:14.
Anyone know anything about this alleged incident? I didn't see anything in the papers about it today.
i was there trying to get a train to babylon or connection at least but was told to go to penn about 4:30 pm and made the 5:05 to babylon
Don't know anything about that, but I would assume we'll have details on the news tonight.
I guess the location would be Atlantic near Bedford Ave.?
"I guess the location would be Atlantic near Bedford Ave.?"
That location has been a popular spot for cars winding up on the tracks for years. I see a concrete wall didn't stop the latest victim.
Bill "Newkirk"
Or it could be either at Nostrand/Atlantic or Ralph/Atalantic depending on which tunnel this worker was talking about. At both of these locations, the tracks starts to descend into the tunnel.
True, but the Bedford end tends to get guys speeding on Atlantic trying not to get caught at the Bedford traffic light....meaning a higher ratio of accidents happen there.
the mta has nine subway lines, irt and bmt, the lirr and the station is a wreck-
eg whenever it rains the station rain too, and the only easy transfer is from the lirr to the untown 2 and 3 lines- otherwise you have to walk up and domn a million steps.
at the Q platform, which is closed periodiaclly for construction, there has been new tiles placed, but they now look older than the redbirds, and the track floods every other day or so
also when tiling the northbound wall, they left a gap about 3 feet from the ceiling to the tiles which is ugly as hell
also when traveling on the lirr, the lirr termianal is so bad that they are trying to scare away commuters (i think) because there are pipes just sticking of of everywhere, leaking, banging, and the station is extremely dimly lit
i always get a luagh when i see the new metrotech building being built on top of the terminal, and see that they have built more infrastucture in a week than the mta in 10 years.
i think this is the station with the most potential.
btw i take the lirr to flatbush every morning then the Q
That "METROTECH" structure you are referring to by the Atlantic Center Mall will be a new Target store, unless another big department store chain signs a lease. There are two cranes hoisted 50 feet in the air. I can't wait till the new LIRR building is finally being built at the corner of Hanson and Flatbush
There is also an office componenent that will be occupied by bank of new york. The MTA should have used this site to relocate it's HW instead of outbidding Goldman Sachs for the 2 broadway site.
Goldman will be moving 1000 workers to Jersey city as a result of the MTA outbidding it for 2 broadway
And that's one of the many reason why the fare will go up to $2.00, and they ACTUALLY threw away $400 million because of the move to 2 Broadway, and the wasted renovation. As if the building really needs a renovation.
Uh....the rahab of the complex isn't finished yet, so expect conditions to be bad before it's finished. Rehab to due to be complete in 2005.
Bill "Newkirk"
The original timetable for completion was January 2004 and the way things are looking, it won't happen, so the contractor working on Atlantic/Pacific will finish the job behind schedule.
"The original timetable for completion was January 2004 and the way things are looking, it won't happen, so the contractor working on Atlantic/Pacific will finish the job behind schedule."
That doesn't surprise me. The job of widening the IRT underpass is a construction feat all it's own. As far as being ADA compliant, I like to see how someone in a wheelchair gets from the BMT Fourth Ave subway to the IRT Lex or 7th Ave Lines. That's different levels of walkways there. Let's see how this all pans out.
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm not surprised. They have a whole lot of work to do and there is almost no way they would finish in January 2004 at the rate they're going. From now on, I'm using Dekalb to transfer for the 4 Av lines b/c of the reconfiguration of the stairways. Back on topic, even if they start to do it around the clock, I'm not sure if they'll meet the original target date.
Several months ago, I noticed that the contractor unearthed a long dormant street level exit (one of the original 1905 entrances I suspect) at the Southwest corner of Atlantic Ave, off Flatbush Ave. This exit leads to the south ends on the IRT platforms (front end, if your are heading toward Franklin or Utica Aves.). Sorry folks, I think they are using it to deliver the goods and materials necessary for the renovation, and this exit will stay shut and abandoned. It would be nice to unearth these long forgotten entrances, no booth has to be put there, use the HEET's in this case. The Brighton Line has numerous abandoned entrances (usually across the street of the entrance of a local stop, like Ave J or Ave M), restore them, and people would not have to go across the street to catch a bus. I believe in the preservation of historical artifacts in the world's largest subway system.
Ave U exit on the south side of AVE U was closed in the early 90's. The skeletal work for the staitway is still in place. All they need to do is to install an iron maiden.
I can't tell you how many time people almost get hit by cars running for the never on time B3. In addition the remaining stairway at the front of the train is very narrow leading to long backups
This past weekend, floor tiling was started on the northbound local tracks.
I admit that SEPTA's lack of vision has been no secret to me or anyone else for a long time, but I'm especially frustrated about it at the moment. What triggered this sentiment is the realization that Baltimore, Chicago, Dallas, and Miami among others all have web sites proudly proclaiming their visions of the transit systems they'd like to build. This made me think about how many more rail lines Philadelphia needs and how little one finds them being discussed, on SEPTA's web site or anywhere else. Needed projects like the Roosevelt Boulevard Subway or the Route 100 King of Prussia branch are barely mentioned if at all. The only project that gets talked about is the insane Schuyllkill Valley Metro project (though I agree this corridor badly needs commuter service). What's more, none of these projects are looked at together in terms of a broad vision of what kind of system is wanted, needed, or could become reality.
I'm not necessarily asking why this is, since the reasons for this have been discussed before. I'm just ranting. If other cities can have a shred of vision, why not Philly? Arrgh.
Mark
The Baltimore Rail plan is another rehash of a plan first put together in 1966 by Parsons-Brinkerhoff.
The problem is that the money isn't there, nor is there a will to bid.
The common wisdom here is that "There is no rail vision at the William Donald Schaefer Building."
There's been no rail construction since 1996, when the Penn Station/BWI Airport branches of the Central Light Rail Line were opened. The only rail thing on the MTA's plate is the double tracking of the CLRL, a process that, according to the MTA's press releases, will take 7 years despite the know fact that a competant rail contractor could do the whole job in 22 months. Most of the line is already graded for double tracks, and the southern portion needs minor grading.
Those of us watching the local transit scene are not pleased.
The MTA continues to be a bus company with a couple of small rail operations.
At least you have a bus company. SEPTA, any more, seems to be more interested in the regional rail system than anything else, especially anything remotely beneficial to the City of Philadelphia (where 85% of its ridership exists). SEPTA continually eschews any imagination or forethought in any transit decision and seems to be perfectly content to run lines which still serve the same streets (in many cases) as car lines did 80 years ago despite demographic, employment, etc changes that should dictate otherwise. Except for some occasional reconfigurations, which usually result in less or worse service as lines get lengthened and, as a result, become even more unmanagable and undependable, the system does not react to serve its customers.
SEPTA appears to live in fear of local politicians, much to the detriment of its ridership. The mere mention of stop consolidation, which would help vehicles move faster (and therefore offer more efficient and speed-competitive service), sends shivers up its managers' spines. Cries for enforcement for items such as the so-called bus-only lane on Chestnut St and parking in bus stops get no action whatsoever (on Chestnut St, enforcement is non-existent, and police have taken the approach that 'if people want to drive in the bus lane and make right turns despite the signs saying otherwise, who are we to stop them?').
The net result is the highest fare in the nation and far from the best service. As much as I embrace transit, both as a user and a proponent, it's hard to keep supporting SEPTA when it doesn't seem to be too interested in running transit in Philadelphia.
If you think I'm wrong, take a close look at the Girard Ave project. SEPTA is going out of its way to ensure failure, if for no other reason than to show that it never wanted the project and does not want to repeat it.
SEPTA continually eschews any imagination or forethought in any transit decision and seems to be perfectly content to run lines which still serve the same streets (in many cases) as car lines did 80 years ago despite demographic, employment, etc changes that should dictate otherwise. Except for some occasional reconfigurations, which usually result in less or worse service as lines get lengthened and, as a result, become even more unmanagable and undependable, the system does not react to serve its customers.
Same thing here.
90% of the MTA's bus lines are using the same routes as the streetcar lines they replaced 50+ years ago. In some cases the only route changes have been due to street closures.
When we oberved the 25 year anniverary of the end of streetcars in 1988, we put together a bus tour that followed the 2 car lines almost totally. Our tour writeup listed all the route changes in 25 years, and there wern't many.
It hasn't changed much 15 years later.
As to Girard Avenue, it's a political move designed to shut up the City, which never wanted the 1992 conversions. Rather than outright falure, the damned thing may actually work, which isn't what SEPTA wants.
It may become a case of "Be careful what you wish for, you may get it."
SEPTA has other streetcar problems looming on the horizon. The K cars, as good as they have been, (operation, not looks, they and the Buffalo LRV's win a joint first prize for ugly streetcars) they are 22 years old and thoughts should be turning to low floor (we do have to deal with ADA on streetcars) articulated cars as replacements.
Of course, Philadelphia does have a reputation for keeping streetcars running for 50 years before replacement, and usually beat them to death before scrapping.
ADA compliance isn't the only reason SEPTA needs to buy new trolleys. They need a larger fleet, since at rush hour a passenger often has to let one or two packed trolleys pass before one with room enough to squeeze in rolls by. What's more, SEPTA needs to buy articulated LRVs. Larger vehicles would increase capacity without requiring teh expense of more operators.
Mark
"90% of the MTA's bus lines are using the same routes as the streetcar lines they replaced 50+ years ago. In some cases the only route changes have been due to street closures."
NIMBY has something to do with that...
NIMBY has very little to do with it. NIMBYS don't tend to exist in the areas served.
Every line in the MTA bus system that was a streetcar line 50 years or more ago is still using virtually the same routing. The only changes are one-way street changes on the route, then the lines are on the adjoining pair streets.
"NIMBY has very little to do with it. NIMBYS don't tend to exist in the areas served. "
I'm afraid it does. Here's one example: NIMBY was a big problem when MTA wanted to extend the Q79 bus to the Floral Park LIRR station. The local village council tried to present the bogus argument that the buses were too big for the area. MTA could have done it regardless, but in the end didn't feel like pissing off the local loudmouths.
And there are other examples, esp. concerning routing changes in outer areas of Queens.
The only time the NIMBYS come out is when the MTA wants to start new bus line in an area that never had one. Same for rail expansion.
The bus system is basically useless except in the rush hours, except for the captive riders. Headways are in the 30 minute to 1 hour range, so the automobile is the way to go outside of the Mon-Fri rush. The subway's non-rush headway is 25 minutes and the Light Rail has it's usual fixed 17 minute headway.
Example:
I live in upper northeast Baltimore. If I take the bus to get to BSM (Baltimore Streetcar Museum) on a Sunday, the journey takes 2 1/4 hours and two bus lines. The line that I would start on has a 1 hour headway. The line has two branches, so the actual headway is closer to 1 1/2 hours. If I make, say, the 11:00 AM bus (out of Carney), which gets to my stop at 11:19. It takes 42 minutes to get to North Avenue, where I change to the 13 line. It has a 40 minute headway, and the bus is nowhere in sight in a neighborhood where even the cops travel in pairs. Assuming there's a 13 sitting there, the trip to North & Maryland Avenues takes 32 minutes and I walk the two blocks to BSM, arriving at 1:30 or so.
If I drive my own car, I leave the same time and get to BSM at 11:45 AM. That's a 30 minute trip if I observe the speed limits. Guess how I get there. Last time I took transit to get to BSM was 1967, before I had either a driver's licence or a car.
There isn't any reason why the K cars need to be retired because of age. A solidly built streetcar, such as the K cars, should be able to make it to 30 if they're properly maintained.
-Robert King
A solidly built streetcar, such as the K cars, should be able to make it to 30 if they're properly maintained.
And by the time replacements have been designed and acquired the K cars WILL be thirty, assuming the process of replacing them starts now. Remember, Robert, our bureaucracy moves even slower than yours :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A lot of the SEPTA K cars have recently been overhauled, too, so they should have a lot of life left in them. But SEPTA still needs a larger fleet and larger vehicles. Capacity is being stretched to its limits right now.
Mark
SEPTA could use an articulated car. That would increase the passenger loading and not increase platform costs.
There are many six-axle car types out there to choose from.
Jim k.
formally of philadelphia
How true! Last time they wanted to buy more cars the snag was that they couldn't find a city to split an order with. Given how many new light rail systems are planned to start up soon, or that are expanding right now, I think that shouldn't really be a problem.
Mark
I don't think articulated LRVs, the kind that light rail systems built from new acquire, would fit Septa's streetcar clearance requirements. What Septa needs are articulated streetcars or LRVs that can fit into streetcar clearance parameters. They should have gotten in on either the TTC ALRV order or gotten in on the MBTA type 7 order, but requested a modified single ended/sided version with a pole instead of a pantograph. I don't think Septa was looking beyond Philadelphia's city limits when they decided that they couldn't split an order with another city.
-Robert King
The TTC ALRV is precisely the kind of vehicle I'd like to see SEPTA purchase. (It's also one of my all-time favorite rail vehicles!) Are there other cities with street-running light rail that could have shared orders with SEPTA? I can think of Portland, for example, with its new streetcar system, which is distinct from its light rail rapid transit operation. I would have loved to see those robot-earthworm-looking cars rolling through West Philly.
Mark
I'm not sure that even the Portland Streetcar cars would work for SEPTA, at least without modification. It must be remembered that SEPTA's City Division has portions that date back 150 years. Many portions of the system were designed for horsecars. They would have to get vehicles that would handle the close clearance and sharp curves of an ancient system. The ALRV in Toronto would do it but I don't know for sure what else would. One of the tighter places is not on a street, it's the surface car subway. Part of the subway is almost 100 years old. The portion under the river was built in the 1930s but never used until 1955. The extension west was designed in the late 1940s and built early to mid 50s. The K-cars are slightly longer than a PCC, I think they maxed out the clearances allowable.
I'm sure that any artic cars for Philly would be single ended with doors on one side. They would also be equipped with provisions for a pole or a pantograph (as the K-car are) although they would probably never see a pantograph installed.
Matthew Mummert
Never posted here before but here's a go.
SEPTA is currently remanufacturing 18 PCC cars; the result will effectively be 18 new cars (for restoration of Rt. 15). The lifespan of those cars is planned to be 15 years to correspond with the planned remaining lifespan of the Kawasakis. The would give a lifespan of 35 years for the K-cars, reality will probably be a little longer.
The K-cars are still good cars. They are still in good, very reliable condition after twenty years. In contrast to years past with the PCCs, SEPTA has taken very good care of these cars. The cars are overhauled regularly and are being upgraded. One thing on the plate right now is upgrading the electronics that run the car. Another project underway is replacing the MA sets. The cars have a motor alternator which produces 120/208 VAC 3 phase which powers the lighting and HVAC systems. On two cars they have sucessfully replaced the MA sets with solid state invertors and are now planning to replace all of the MA sets with invertors.
I have never heard of any planning at all regarding replacing the K-cars. It is not mentioned at all in even the longe range (12 year) capital plan, not even the design work for a new fleet. It's not on the radar screen at this point in time.
Matthew Mummert
Welcome to SubTalk. You should post more often as you seem very knowledgable on Philly topics. I'm gonna have to get down there sometime. I've never ridden such lines at the Norristown High-Speed Line. :(
Take Pride,
Brian
Well you are in for a treat.
Low Floor troleys suck. You don't get any sort of view down there staring at the grass. At least in the current trolley's the riders can look down upon the snobs in their SUV's. We don't want to provide even more psychological ammunition against riding transit.
Incidently, the ADA needs to be re-written to be more goals oriented. The disabled should be provided transit to all destinations served by the regular system via the least cost approach. If this means bussing them around in a fleet of special built limos then so be it, but wasting money making the entire Abled system accessable helps nobody in the long run. All it does it just make people put off ADA compliance as long as possible and tie up money that could be used to expand transit, disabaled services or both.
The disabled should be provided transit to all destinations served by the regular system via the least cost approach. If this means bussing them around in a fleet of special built limos then so be it, but wasting money making the entire Abled system accessable helps nobody in the long run.
While that might be the lowest-cost approach from a transit perspective, it isn't necessarily the best approach. One of our goals is, and should be, to make daily life reasonably accessible to the disabled. Do we need to bend over backward? No. But as one who has spent time in a wheelchair, and almost certainly will again, I don't want to be shunted to the sidelines. Paratransit is better than nothing, but access to the same facilities as I have today is even better.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As someone who lives in the Rt 422 corridor and works in Philly, I say
lets do something already.
The traffic on Rt 422 is only getting heavier and getting worse to drive on. The Schykull Valley Metro is probably a long way off, why not diesel service to 30th St?
In the morning I currently drive 25 minutes (18 miles) from Collegeville to Stafford where I catch the R5. It takes 30-35 minutes to get to Suburban. The R5 is great
Forget Norristown its too slow, and infrequent. (Though 10 miles from home)
For example in the evening the R6 local runs about 10 minutes or so in front of the joke they call an express! The Express waits to pull into all the Norristown stops because the local is right in front of it.
As for The Rt100, its not any quicker then the R6, its only redeeming
quality is if the river floods or down wires or any other problem and the R6 is out, the El and 100 are a sure bet.
I leave work at 430 and do not get in the house until after 6, and it is only 30 miles from center city!
So is diesel possible to 30th?
I have lots of problems with Baltimore's rail expansion plan, but I give Marlyand MTA a few more points than SEPTA for at least having a vision for better transit in the city. But that said, my biggest problem with the Baltimore plan is that it calls for the creation of a new mode (like SEPTA's ill-fated SVM) that would require the expensive design and engineering of all-new rolling stock, instead of more economically using off-the-shelf technology.
Mark
I too wonder why SEPTA doesn't have any kind of forecast for their systems expansion. I suppose though that it's better to have no forecast and get a windfall than to have a glut of projects planned, all of which won't happen *ahem* NewYork *AHEM.* We were all let down somewhat by the SVM, and all that it may have promised, no matter how big a pipe dream it was, perhaps SEPTA is just regrouping after that loss.
I really would like the city to look harder at center city traffic, be it bus, car or LRV, something has gotta be done about some streets in Philly. All too often SEPTA seems to think that they don't need to serve the people who live too close to the city to justify a car, but too far to walk to work everyday, they place a distinctly suburban feel to all their activities, and definitely put the suburbanites ahead of the city dwellers. It's this kind of board that give us the SPREE, the Bustitutions of the Trolley lines, and the insane plans like the SVM, the Cross County Metro, and other inanities. The Roosevelt Blvd Extention of the BSS is absolutely necessary, and the Rt 100 to King of Prussia would be nice, although they both pretty much contradict what I just said, both would help take the load off two beleagured roads (the SExpressway and Roosevelt Blvd) and might bring more service to those closer to the city.
Why? Because "vision" is a dirty word in the mindset of most people in power in Philadelphia. The mindset is make sure you get yours and if something gives you the the slightest hint of taking away your little fiefdom of power, then you fight it tooth and nail. Another mindset is that if something comes and bring any whiff of change, then any change is bad, and it must be kept at bay. That was the mindset of NE Philly residents for nearly 50 years, resisting any extension of the subways to their neighborhoods. They escaped their old neighborhoods in North, South, and West Philly because of "change" (negroes moving in) and worked hard to keep the "Great Northeast" lily-white. They feared that extending the subways into their neighborhoods would bring "undesirables" up there. But they did not count on dying did they? That neighborhood is changing now because many of the original residents are dying off, and their kids who grew up then moved to the suburbs have to get rid of the house. To make a long story short, the newcomers are beginning to see the light, and maybe and finally something will be done about the transit problem up there.
Another problem about the lack of vision, is that in order to get anything done, you must literally grease as many palms as possible in order to put that vision into reality. That ranges to every two-bit politician in the way, the unions who want that money to featherbed their staffs (and pension funds) , the "Minority activists" who want their (connected) friends and allies on the project, not to mention attemps to silence every NIMBY in the area. You see, to do anything in Philly relies on KISSING EVERY ASS, AND OCCASIONALLY GETTING SHIT ON, and that will kill any vision no matter how noble it is.
Finally, when you're an operation in which you have to get on your hands and knees, and beg to get money to just keep up the status quo, its hard to think about anything that smacks of "Vision" (there's that V word again). As long as SEPTA is the region's unwanted stepchild,[like Philly is the State of Pennsylvanis's unwanted bastard child] they will not waste their time and effort on such a silly little thing called "Vision"
I agree it is difficult to squeeze appropriations for anything in Philadelphia from the Republican legislature unless it has some benefit to suburban constituents. Hopefully, Governor Rendell, who smote the "Philadelphia Curse" and just became the commonwealth's chief executive, can make a difference in that regard. No one who voted for Eddie thinks he won't try to take care of his city, and no one expects him not to try to use his office for its betterment. On the other hand, while mayor, he did govern with an eye toward the entire metro area rather than just the city itself, which got him into trouble with city folks, yet probably helped put him in the mansion on 2nd Street.
In today's Philadelphia Daily News, an opinion article was published mentioning a meeting of the Pennsylvania Economy League later this week and would discuss such topics as "Investing a billion dollars in Philadelphia".
The writer suggested putting such funds towards improving the current transit situation, including extension of the Market-Frankford El and Broad St. Subway.
It's here and it's worth a read.
Thanks for posting that! I read it yesterday and I agree with the author wholeheartedly.
Mark
The other side of the coin is that SEPTA is not spending money promoting pipe dreams that will never be built any time soon.
Response: Schuyllkill Valley Metro
For break, I went home to NYC (currently attending CMU in Pittsburgh). Anyway, being the railfan that I am, I of course took Amtrak, making use of their generous 35% discount. While in Harrisburg, I got out to take some pics of the GG1 sitting there.
http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/~idekine/gg1/
By the way, speaking of Harrisburg, the Amtrak train I was on left 15 minutes earlier than scheduled, almost making me miss it. Did the schedule for the Three Rivers change, or did the crew mess up? As far as I was taught (by my dad who was a conductor), trains are ABSOLUTELY NOT supposed to leave early. So what gives?
Ok, ok, I give up. How'd they get the pan to stay nice and compressed in that picture.
And if it is really under a wire, is the wire on?
Ahhhhhhh, home. Nice pix. :O)
From the Three Rivers timetable:
Three Rivers
40
Daily
Harrisburg, PA
D Ar 1 55P
D Dp 2 20P
D=Stops only to discharge passengers; train may leave ahead of schedule when station work is completed.
Harrisburg is a crew-change location. Could be the crew was ready early and wanted to get on the road. Or could be, since Amtrak is no longer in the express freight business, there is less "station work" to be completed. The schedule may be a holdover from Amtrak's flirtation with freight railroading (Harrisburg had an Express facility), although I remember the stop was at least 20 minutes before Amtrak's experience in Express shipping.
Much to my dismay, the friendly folks of my hometown can only participate in the eastbound Three Rivers from afar because of the inane restriction on boarding between Harrisburg and New York, a practice held over from the PRR "Broadway Limited." Keystone Service could use 2 more trains in both directions, and Amtrak could use the revenue. What's a few more seconds in dwell times east of Harrisburg on the 2 perennially delayed PA intercity trains, anyway?
Thanks for the info. I should've paid more attention to the legend and looked up what "D" meant, so as not to be surprised when the train started moving at 2:10.
GG1 rules.....the ultimate subway. I got one...the original Lionel that a stupid little kid...me...beat up. Pic in my locker...the one from the museum. No AngloFrancaiseEspanoil parts in that big sucker!!! MadeInAmerika from RealSteel. MY M1 Does the Talking!
VOTE NO FOR RATIFICATION! CI peter
Are the GG 1s still there at the Amtrak Station. if so maybe I will drive up there on a day off in the near future.
How is the station for train watching?
It's been there all 3 times that I was there, which was around mid September, Mid December, and this past Saturday. It's been there all three times. Safe to say, it'll be there if you drive up.
The door leading to the GG1's platform is locked, but the doors to the another platform wasn't, and because platforms are low, I could walk from one to the next.
By the way, it's only one GG1, and a caboose.
still it would be worth seeing
GG1 #4859, the first G to go to Harrisburg, is on permanent display at Harrisburg station, so she will still be there when you visit.
November 1986
April 13, 2002
with caboose 4-13-02
That's nice pic here. I wonder if the ol' gal can still operate. It would be nice to see her running along the North Jersey Coast line for ol' times sake, wouldn't it?
I'd love it, but I doubt it.
Ever wonder, The GGI lasted what 40 odd years on the PRR-Penn Central and Amtrack, and now what Amtrack is into its 3 generation Electric on the Corridor in 30 years.
Something is not right
(A)
All Times except Nights and Evenings
Express stops in Manhattan, and all stops in Brooklyn and Queens from 207 St, Manhattan, to Far Rockaway, Queens. serves Rockaway Park during rush hours, other times transfer to (S) at Broad Channel.
Evenings (21:00-22:30)
All stops from 207 St Manhattan to 145 St Manhattan, express stops from 145 St to Canal St, all stops in Brooklyn to Far Rockaway Queens
Nights
All stops from 207 St Manhattan to Far Rockaway Queens
(B)
Middays, Rush Hours and Weekday Evenings(until 21:00)
All stops from 200 St, Manhattan, to 59 St Manhattan, Express stops from 59 St to Coney Island Stillwell Avenue, Brooklyn
Weekends
All stops from 168 St Manhattan to 59 St Manhattan, Express stops from 59 St to Coney Island
Nights
All stops from Coney Island to 36 St
TRANSFER: to (N) for service to Queens and Manhattan
(C)
Middays and Rush Hours (06:30-20:30)
All stops from 200 St, Bronx, to Canal St Manhattan, Express stops from Canal St Manhattan, through Brooklyn to Lefferts Blvd Manhattan
Evenings(20:30-22:30) and Weekends
All stops from 145 St Manhattan to Canal St Manhattan, Express stops from Canal St to Lefferts Blvd, Queens
Nights
QUEENS SERVICE ONLY: All stops from Lefferts Blvd to Rockaway Blvd
TRANSFER: to (A) at Rockaway Blvd for service to/from Brooklyn and Manhattan
(D)
Evenings(20:30+), Nights and Weekends
Express stops in Manhattan and all stops in the Bronx and Brooklyn from 205 St Bronx to Coney Island Brooklyn
Middays and Rush Hours (06:30-20:30)
Express stops in the Bronx on trips to Manhattan(AM) and to The Bronx(PM) express stops in Manhattan and all stops in Brooklyn from 205 St, Bronx, to Coney Island Stillwell Av Brooklyn
Is there really a need for four services, especially two expresses, on Central Park West?
Oops, pressed "Post Message" a little too quickly here. Please disregard this post.
Is there really a need for four services, especially two expresses, on Central Park West on weekends?
CPW already has 2 expresses on weekends, of course we could cut the C or B and place it somewhere else if needed and leave the A and D as express
IMO, there is a need for two local services on weekends. There's a major weekend destination at 81st Street, for one thing.
But I don't think there's a need for two express services on weekends. Sorry, D riders, that means you. (Running the A local along with the C would be silly and would create extra merging delays at 59th. I suppose one remotely plausible weekend option would be A express, B local, no C, D express, and E extended to Brooklyn, but then CPW loses direct access to local stations south of 59th, especially 50th.)
Sorry, but in order for you to run the A express you need the C. Why? I can give you the answer in two words: 50th Street.
People at 50th Street get screwed if you get rid of the C. How do you get uptown if you're at that station? The E is not gonna take you there. And I happen to know that downtown (for some strange reason that I haven't figured out yet) people tend to wait on the C platform for the train rather than go downstairs to catch the E, which runs on a smaller headway, runs more trains, and has precedence over the C (which I don't understand either).
If you discontinue the C on weekends, then you have to run the A local along 8th Avenue.
I made the same point (in fewer words). And I agree. When the D ran local and the C express a few months ago for a switch replacement project south of 59th, the real inconvenience was on local passengers in general and on those using 50th in particular.
But it's one of the few occasions when the cross-platform transfers at 7th Avenue become really useful.
As for people waiting to go downtown, some may be waiting for the C since they're going past Chambers -- but even they would probably get there sooner by taking an E one stop and waiting at 42nd for an A or C, whichever comes first. Most probably wait upstairs because they're lazy and they don't realize they'd be better off downstairs.
I threw out the A/B/D option as a remote possibility. You've put your finger on the major problem, and I don't see any particular advantages, so I doubt we'll ever see it (except for GO's, of course). I'll bet on A/C/D, A/B/C, or A/B/C/D.
For uptown service, take the "E" train one stop to 7th Ave. then transfer for the "B" or "D". Believe it or not, based on todays headways on the "C", if you've just missed a "C" train, grab the next "E" and followered the aforementioned and you will get to 59th St. quicker than waiting for the next "C".
Not necessarily. The B runs on a ten minute headway just like the C does. So if you get to 7th Avenue and miss the B you're still waiting the same amount of time.
"But I don't think there's a need for two express services on weekends. Sorry, D riders, that means you. (Running the A local along with the C would be silly and would create extra merging delays at 59th. I suppose one remotely plausible weekend option would be A express, B local, no C, D express, and E extended to Brooklyn, but then CPW loses direct access to local stations south of 59th, especially 50th.)"
I would get rid of the "B" on the weekends... and run it as a shuttle from 36 to stillwell avenue... those times...
N Bwy
Yes, there definitely is. And one of those locals should not be the A, except during late night hours.
By running the A local through Brooklyn, how does that "improve service" for patrons from Far Rockaway and Howard Beach (JFK Airport connection)?
Let me throw in my comments.
(A) Making the A local after 9pm in Brooklyn is ludicrous and still has decent ridership during that time, let express service end after the C stops running, just like it does now. I agree that A's should stop at 155 and 163 Sts in the evening hours after 9pm.
(B) I agree woth you, the Concourse line could use two services until at least 8:30pm, 7pm is just too early IMO and crowds are still relatively decent. Expanding the hours of the Concourse express [PM especially] is a good idea too however is it really needed throughout the whole midday time period? If it is, then I'm for it but I doubt its needed.
On weekends, let it go to 145 St like it did pre 7/22/01, its not needed IMO; the C could handle 155 St and 163 St by itself. For late nights, why nor run it to Pacific St, I thinkits a better option.
(C) I think its doing fine plus running 3 services in one way in the non peak direction, too much service, not necessary you could send alternate C's to the Bronx & it shouldn't interfere with B service at BPB. I'm still shaky on the C going to Lefferts but it would eliminate confusion for A riders. BUT that means people would have to transfer to the A, losing a one seat express ride [and probably a chance for getting a seat].
(D) That is good however I don't think the Concourse line needs a full midday peak express but if it's needed and necessary, I'm all for it.
Flatbush
1. The A will always run local in Brooklyn, this is to Balance out the lenght on the A and C (for a possible Rockaway Park extension so the A can keep it's 3 terminals)
2. The B will terminate at Dyckman St-200 St(note I said Manhattan not Bronx) on weekdays and 168 St on weekends. The C will terminate at Bedford Park Blvd-200 St on weekdays and on weekends at 145 St. Concourse will only have 2 services not 3.
If CPW(8th Av) doesn't need 2 local services on weekends, then the B can go to 21 St Queensbridge or something.
"2. The B will terminate at Dyckman St-200 St(note I said Manhattan not Bronx) on weekdays and 168 St on weekends. The C will terminate at Bedford Park Blvd-200 St on weekdays and on weekends at 145 St. Concourse will only have 2 services not 3. "
The "C" did not work in the Bronx.. It was too crowded.
"If CPW(8th Av) doesn't need 2 local services on weekends, then the B can go to 21 St Queensbridge or something. "
4th Avenue doesn't need all those services either.. So they should run the "B" as a shuttle on the weekends.. This would mean making the "N" local on the Weekend.. which makes sense.
N Bwy
Fourth Avenue has had three weekend services for decades, whether B/N/R or N/R/W. It might need them. Rather than make the N local on weekends, why not keep the W as a 24/7 local service? The Broadway BMT line in Manhattan would definitely benefit from having three weekend services like it does now. Having only the N and the R on weekends would be insufficient. It was insufficient even when there was no Broadway access to the Manhattan Bridge.
No.. I was talking about the "B" not the "W". And this is when the Bridge is return to 6th Avenue Service.. My proposal for the "W" would be Middays to Whitehall Street "LOCAL" from Astoria... And my plans for the Q would be making it the express (via Brighton) everyday (except Sundays) from 6:AM - 9PM.. (see below for more details).
B - Bedford Park Blvd (BX) or Coney Island (B), rush hours.
B - 145th Street (M) or Coney Island (B) Middays.. (6AM - 9PM).
othertimes, shuttle from 36th Street (B) or Coney Island (B).
(Grand Concourse, Central Park Local and 6th Avenue (via Manhattan Bridge), 4th Avenue Express.
C - 168th Street (M) or Lefferts Blvd (Q) and Euclid Avenue (B) 6AM - 12AM everyday.
(Local all stops)
D - 205th Street (BX) or Coney Island (B). All the times...
(Express in the Bronx rush hours.. Manhattan and 6th Avenue Express... and Brighton Local.)
A - 207th Street (M) or Far Rockaway (Q). All the times..
(Express except for b/t 12AM - 6AM)
H - Shuttle form Rockaway or Far Rockaway. All the times.
N - Ditmars Blvd (Q) or Coney Island (B). All the times.
Broadway Express (everyday except b/t 12AM - 6AM). Via Manhatttan Bridge. 4th Avenue Express (rush hours). Local via Tunnel - othertimes.
M - Metropolitan Avenue (Q) or Bay Parkway (B). Rush hours.
M - Metropolitan Avenue (Q) or 9th Avenue (B) and Chambers Street (M). Midday. Local all stops.
Othertimes.. shuttle from Metropolitan Avenue to Myrtle Avenue or visa versa.
Q - 57th Street (M) or Brighton Beach (B). Everyday except (12AM - 6AM) and Sundays.
(express via Broadway and Brighton)
R - No midnights! LOCAL!
W - Astoria (Q) and Whitehall Street (M). Rush Hours.. Local.
N Broadway Local
Isn't that idea to promote crowding to avoid service cuts?
The C was switched so the A/C and B/D cars would be in the same yard and wouldn't have to mix(so I've heard)
well.. that was part of it.. But the main reason was the "C" couldn't handle the crowds..
N Bwy
The B can't terminate at 21st-Queensbridge without getting in the way of the F trains that run through Queensbridge. The B doesn't have to run on weekends. Why not run the W 24/7 on the West End line as now and have the B supplement the W on weekdays? Then the Broadway line in Manhattan can have three weekend services (N, R and W) which it does now.
"(C) I think its doing fine plus running 3 services in one way in the non peak direction, too much service, not necessary you could send alternate C's to the Bronx & it shouldn't interfere with B service at BPB. I'm still shaky on the C going to Lefferts but it would eliminate confusion for A riders. BUT that means people would have to transfer to the A, losing a one seat express ride [and probably a chance for getting a seat]. "
I like the idea of the "C" running to Lefferts Blvd.. The service would be better.. because it will be more frequent than current "A" service..
This might encourage them to increase the Far Rockaway Service slightly.. since they would not be anymore Lefferts Blvd "A" service.. So it will be better than currently.
N Bwy
The C is every 10-11 minutes, the A to Lefferts is about the same headway, probably a little less than that [lets say 15 minutes]. Increase the C's frequency and to 10 cars and it would be more efficient.
Is there a 200th Street station in the Bronx that I don't know about, or is it disguised as a 76th Street posting.
He could of meant 205th, and been a typo. Or, he could have meant Bedford Park Blvd which is the same as 200th St.
Peace,
ANDEE
No disguises, 200 St is Bedford Park Boulevard.
Run the B as a Mon-Fri Local to Coney Island. Rush Hours. Other times run it to 2nd Ave. No Nights or Sundays. Continue the W as Express. Run the M to 9th Ave Only Rush Hours, otherwise terminate at Chambers or run it on the Brighton as a Local during Rush Hrs.
I coulnd't help posting this one! (its not mine)
http://newyork.craigslist.org/nyc/wri/7889071.html
Reply to: tunnelpicayune@yahoo.com
Date: Sat Jan 11th 03:58
New weekly paper, The Tunnel Picayune, to launch soon seeks a gritty journalist ready to get down and dirty in New York’s underground. We’re looking for someone who can really dig up some fun in the tunnels. Should be ready to: train busker singers on trains to sound better, give a homeless person a makeover and set them up on a big date, make people wipe their germs from poles, get a transit employee to catch a rat for you to keep as a pet, find the worst smell and seek out its source. Crappy hours. May work with scary people/creatures. Should be willing to forget about sun and live like an albino. Send cover letter. Please include a brief tale of your wildest subway experience ever. Pay per column to start.
In what year was the Port of New York Authority renamed the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey?
1972.
It's Port Authority New Jersey New York, get it right. ;)
Oh come on, If we're going to get jack squat from them 'cept an obsolete rail line and a monorail built by none but the finest (heh, Bombardier, Adtranz, Von Roll, the contracts for that thing must have looked like the Blacklist for rail transit manufacturers). You might as well just give us this small thing, lets get new stamps with PANJNY on them, and set this wrong right.
Damn Joisey's getting to me.
Had it not been for New York, New Jersey would never have existed.
This is literally true. New Jersey was part of King Charles II grant of land in North America to the Duke of York, which stretched from the Delaware to the Connecticut Rivers. The Duke granted the land west of the Hudson to George Carteret and John Berkeley.
So New Jersey was a subcolony of New York. HA ha.
I can't tell the difference between the IRT Redbirds that run on the 7. What type of cars are they R33 or R36?
Thanks
Anthony
R-36 bay windows, R-36 mainline, look like the redbirds on the 4/5 and the R-33 single units Looks like the R-36 with the bay windows.
one more thing now you have R62a's replacing the redbird fleet gradually over time one you have the Pelham R-62A's, and the single R-62A's from the Lenox Avenue line, you need two different fleets because the Flushing Line, runs a consist of 11 cars
The only R-33s on the Flushing line are the WF singles, third car from the Flushing end, #9307-9345; the rest are R-36WF (picture windows) or mainline.
The line runs mostly on Queens Blvd and Roosevelt Ave, and nowhere near Flushing Ave.
And Flushing Avenue goes nowhere near Flushing. Never did either. Was originally called the Brooklyn and Newtown Turnpike.
Flushing was the name of the Dutch Neighborhood.
Flushing may have been named for the Dutch town of Vlissingen, but it was first settled by English people.
Its funny how Flushing Av dead ends WAY before the neighborhood of Flushing and it ends at Fresh Pond Road I believe.
Maybe at one time Flushing Ave went all the way to Flushing.
Possibly. But it looks like the road was never completed and was probably was supposed to be longer than it is now.
Consider. Maybe the road was demapped in several locations. And in several located, the road is known by a different name. I think Kevin Walsh said that King's Highway at one time went to Brooklyn Heights. Very little trace remains from that routing.
It is possible that Flushing Av was demapped and there are different names for those streets. So that means Kings Highway was shifted to the east and routed currently northeast until it dead ends at East 98 St.
Actually, it is NOT possible that Flushing Avenue was demapped.
Flushing Avenue, as the Brooklyn and Newtown Turnpike ended at what is now Queens Boulevard and Broadway. Past its current end, it is now Grand Avenue.
Well would you want to be considered Grand or Flushed?
;-) Sparky
Now it should be noted that that King's Highway was the general term for the major highway system of Long Island, and thus not only was what we call "Kings Highway" part of it, but so was what is now Fulton Street and Flatbush Avenue among others.
Grand Avenue.
I had a feeling it was Grand Av and my gut feeling proved correct.
Oops... :)
R-36 WFs are 9346-9769, ML 9524-9557. Anything with a large rectangular window is WF, squares are ML.
ML has WH propulsion; WF has GE on 9558-9769, WH on the others.
GE cars have a yellow sticker below the the number plate, WH cars black.
Flushing Ave?
You are mistaken. Flushing Avenue is nowhere near Flushing but is actually in Brooklyn. The 7 train runs on Roosevelt and Queens Blvd. for the majority in Queens.
We've already discussed the history of the Brooklyn and Newtown Turnpike.
I don't get why it's called Flushing Avenue. Maybe most people who used it only rode past Newtown (Elmhurst) and then went on to Flushing.
Interesting theory...
Maybe most people who used it only rode past Newtown (Elmhurst) and then went on to Flushing.
Babylon Turnpike is in Merrick, and is doesn't go to Babylon.
But I suppose if you were in Roosevelt and wanted to go to Babylon, you *would* have to *start* on the Babylon Turnpike. So it is in Brooklyn, if you want to go to Flushing, you would have to start on the Flushing Avenue and then join some grand way later.
As a matter of fact, Jerusalem Avenue doesn't go anywhere near Jerusalem!
Elias
Not to mention Bayside cemetery is in Ozone Park!
Flushing Ave -> Grand Ave -> Corona Ave -> Roosevelt Ave is the most direct non-highway route from Williamsburg to Flushing. There's one theory.
Another theory - Eugenius Flushing was a prominent landowner in Bushwick...
The 7 doesn't run via Flushing Av, its called the Flushing line. Anyway, the single units [9307-9345] are R33 WF and the married units [9346-9769] are R36 WF. WF stands for World Fair, which got the name from the Worlds fair in the mid 60's in Queens.
The mainline R33's [8806-9305] and the mainline R36's [9524-9557] don't have the large windows like the WF cars, these mainline cars have the "school bus" windows.
Hope this helps.
Oops, I made a mistake.
The R36 WF is 9346-9523 and 9558-9769
The R36 mainline is 9524-9557
I believe the cars for the Newark International Aiport monorail were
built by Bombardier. Is that true?
Technically. They were built by Adtranz which is now owned by Bombardier but not then.
I think the whole project was started by Von Roll, as it's largest project to date, but their monorail division was purchased by Adtranz just after construction started. Adtranz came in and didn't like how it was being done, changed all sorts of stuff (IIRC they put in the rotary switches, that's not a Von Roll thing). Finally Bombardier purchased Adtranz just before the AirTrain opened, and pretty much left it alone, there wasn't much to change, it was practically done by then.
Unfortunately the Newark Airtrain monorails are a classic Von Roll design. Most of the time Von Rolls in theme parks in Europe and Asia but are common in Australia as well . Sadly the Von Roll really is too heavy most of the time for it's guideway, thus limiting speed to the crawl seen on the Airtrain, and making the ride somewhat uncomfortable. The Alweg style monorail OTOH, has a massive guideway providing all the stability needed for the train to move at a quite impressive speed.
I like this, I ask a question about the Newark Airtrain and no one anwsers it.
robert
Yours was a pretty hard question. Probably no one knows the answer. This thread was started with a much easier question.
You've caught the crux of the problems Robert.....Bombardier buys up all of its suppliers just like Lucent did.....and will eventually 'crash and burn.' Newarks problems were with a subcontractor.....concrete structures eventually failed in supporting the additional weight. BTW: Adtranz was part of Mercedes/Benz. We know them now as owners of Chrysler......Daimler/Chrysler. CI peter
I like the rotary switch concept and spent some time watching the switches at one of the turnaround points. I thought the whole thing very ingenious.
What did Von Roll do elsewhere for switches? The only other monorail “switch” I have seen was at Orlando Disney, where spare trains could be shifted out onto a piece of track that rolled sideways.
Those rotary switches are good from a railfan perspective, what with this unusual method of making the train diverge, and the somewhat surprising amount of motion that acompanies the switching. But I heard that they are a nightmare from a maintenance perspective, the track is moving perpendicular to the direction of the vehicles travel, thus everything must line up perfectly every time, failure to do so could result in the derailing of the monorail. I suppose that given the current switches available, the rotary switches were the best switches for the job. According to the Monorails.org site on Box Beam monorails, only three switch styles are used by those type monorails, axial, radial, and transverser. The radial being of the rotary type used on the Airtrain, I'm assuming that the Axial is like a Turntable on a railroad, and the transverser is like a transfer table type thing. I guess I was wrong, Adtranz didn't bring in the rotary switches, Von Roll may have designed them into the design.
Alweg monorails have a bit better choice, using the Beam Replacement switches like you saw at Dizzyland, as well as segmented, axial, and transverser switches. I suppose a rotary switch would be a possiblity, but really what would the point be with the beam replacement and segmented options opened up by the larger size of the monorail beam?
Thank you for posting that excellent piece. It explained a lot. I like the graphics.
I've used AirTrain Newark. It could use a little more speed, I agree, but I wouldn't describe it as uncomfortable. It was a very decent ride, actually.
I understand that Exchnage Place is scheduled to open in June of this year and the new "temporary" station down around the WTC is slated for a late-fall/early-winter opening. However, in the last few days I have noticed several PATH cars having had an 'EXPL' plastered over the 'WTC' destination indicator lights on both the exterior and interior (only the silver model with 3 doors per side) of the cars. The interior paste overs seems to be merely stickers and will not light up. The exterior ones seem like the may be able to light up.
My question is does this mean that Exchange Place may open early?? The reasoning for this question lies in that it seems unneccessary to start this early on modifying the destination indicator lights 5 months ahead of time. I would think this is not labor-intensive and would not need to be done until shortly before use. Given that less people than I would hope cannot follow the signs anyway, it may not need to be done at all. Bringing me to my other point, why waste manpower on this remodeling this station for a temporary use (speaking of the "pocket track" only). From my observaiton, there are 6-8 people getting on at Grove and Pavonia for everyone 1 getting off, redendering the "Lots of people need to get to EXPL" argument somewhat moot in my opinion. It's bad enough that it's going to take approximately 26 months to build a temporary station. I know that that are many factors are involved. It just seems unnecessarily excessive, given what was accomplished on the 1/9 tunnel revuild. I wish the powers that controlled the rebuilding of the 1/9 tunnel were in charge of the WTC rebuild. My ride from Journal Sq to 33rd is getting unbearable.
Thoughts?
I also find it annoying to go all the way up to 33rd when I go to New Jersey instead of changing to the N/R then the Q.
"Thoughts?"
1. Exchange Place is much close to the water than Newport. Newark to Excahnge Place, followed by a ferry, is a much more reasonable trip than Newark to Newport or Hoboken followed by a ferry. Lots of people will benefit by many minutes per day from the reopening of Exchange Place. If enough people go back to the PATH instead of taking NJT to Penn, they may even be able to open the Secaucus transfer (now on hold because Newark to Penn trains have no more space).
2. The PA in its wisdom has decided to reconstruct the WTC station on a single shift. It supposedly runs 12 hours per day, but it's a lot more quiet there after 5 PM than before 4 PM. I personally think it's a disgrace and am amazed no newspaper has caught on to their lack of urgency.
3. I also don't see where the $550 million is going. There are less than 100 people working on the temporary station. That size of crew would have trouble spending $50 million a year.
PATH is also rebuilding the two downtown Hudson Tubes. This is the bottleneck as there is very limited amount of work that can be done there each day (mostly governed by tunnel throughput of supplies and excavation). PATH not only needs to relay the track/balast and re-do the signaling, but also get rid of al the old lead conduits and re-pour the concrete wall bumpers. It does no good for the PA to employ two shifts to finish a station months before the tunnels are readt to serve it.
I agree. PATH is doing a very good job on six-day per week shifts, and I certainly hope that the WTC line will reopen in the spring instead of June.
And HBR is making good progress on its next expansion phase.
My real concern is the WTC reconstruction itself. Too many people screaming that their opinions are the only ones and "you shut up nobody is interested in your opinion." Makes me look for the barf bag.
The Exchange Place line, that is. But maybe WTC itself can open in the summer or early fall.
It was my understanding that the tubes portion was finished some time ago. In fact, I though they didn;t even start the WTC station porition unitl the tubes were gutted and rebuilt. Maybe I'm wrong. If I am, and the tubes are that time-cosuming to repair, then doesn;t that bolster the position to double shift so that the opening of the tunnel could coincide with the completion of the station rebuild?
Anyway, how would the new station impact the routes? Does anyone have a link to the system map when the WTC line ran? It would be my hope that any train having to "bounce" off EXPL would be one going to Hoboken and not 33rd, given the disproportionate (sp?) number of stops on the NWK>33rd train vs. the JSQ>HOB train. However, given that EXPL is opening to service the NJT Newark Penn offload crow, I would guess the NWK>33rd train will get the nod. How fun will that late night 33rd>NWK via Hoboken and Exchange Place ride. I'm guessing about 45 minutes.
"If I am, and the tubes are that time-cosuming to repair, then doesn;t that bolster the position to double shift so that the opening of the tunnel could coincide with the completion of the station rebuild? "
Not if the costs are truly prohibitive or the skilled crews aren't avalable for all these shifts, or???
Running 24 hour shifts is not an all-upside deal, esp. with the federal govt slow to cough up the $20 billion it promised New York and Silverstein still fighting his insurance company.
I understand that Exchnage Place is scheduled to open in June of this year and the new "temporary" station down around the WTC is slated for a late-fall/early-winter opening. However, in the last few days I have noticed several PATH cars having had an 'EXPL' plastered over the 'WTC' destination indicator lights on both the exterior and interior (only the silver model with 3 doors per side) of the cars. The interior paste overs seems to be merely stickers and will not light up. The exterior ones seem like the may be able to light up.
My question is does this mean that Exchange Place may open early?? The reasoning for this question lies in that it seems unneccessary to start this early on modifying the destination indicator lights 5 months ahead of time. I would think this is not labor-intensive and would not need to be done until shortly before use. Given that less people than I would hope cannot follow the signs anyway, it may not need to be done at all. Bringing me to my other point, why waste manpower on this remodeling this station for a temporary use (speaking of the "pocket track" only). From my observaiton, there are 6-8 people getting on at Grove and Pavonia for everyone 1 getting off, redendering the "Lots of people need to get to EXPL" argument somewhat moot in my opinion. It's bad enough that it's going to take approximately 26 months to build a temporary station. I know that that are many factors are involved. It just seems unnecessarily excessive, given what was accomplished on the 1/9 tunnel revuild. I wish the powers that controlled the rebuilding of the 1/9 tunnel were in charge of the WTC rebuild. My ride from Journal Sq to 33rd is getting unbearable.
Thoughts?
I read in books that the old CNJ Newark Bay Bridge was the largest lift bridge in the world( or at least in this country). Would anyone happen to have any pics of this now demolished bridge, along with pics of the old Elizabethport Shops?
Well I can't be of much assistance with the Elizabethport Shops, but I can help with the Bridge. Library of Congress's American Collection has 71 black and white stills of the bridge in it's later years. Including photos like this:
CNJ Newark River Lift Bridge
BTW: I thought the AK Draw over the Kill van Kull was the longest, or is that just longest lift span, while the CNJ bridge has those long causeway portions on either end.
Wow, what a treat. Thanks a lot for the link. To answer the last quote, AK Draw is the longest in the world by its longest span. The CNJ bridge was the largest 4 track lift bridge. However, I find Dock Draw over the Passaic River to be a pretty big bridge. I wonder do they ever raise Dock Draw any more. I would love to see it in the open position. I'm still looking for pics of AK Draw in the closed position and the original Reynolds Channel bridge in Long Beach.
Thanks again!!
Brooklyn: There are a few pictures of the Newark Bay Draw Bridge in Stan Fischler's book; "NEXT STOP GRAND CENTRAL." The pictures were taken in the aftermath of the September 15,1958 disaster in which CNJ Train No 3314 ran through the open draw and plunged into Newark Bay. Forty eight persons including the engineer and fireman perished in that mishap.
Larry, RedbirdR33
"Would anyone happen to have any pics of this now demolished bridge, along with pics of the old Elizabethport Shops?"
So the bridge is gone now...? SAAAADDDD!
N Bwy
I don't know if this has been posted here yet, but the January 2003 map has one minute, yet major change; the Subway Service Guide at the bottom now lists the (2) as a local during Late Night service. In December 2002, the (2) was listed as being an express 24/7.
IIRC, the Jan 2003 map also has some added ferry routes, including the long-ignored East River shuttle, as well as the new / newly revived Hunterspoint routes.
I saw a January 2003 map up on the wall of an R-68 car on my B train this evening. I'm glad to see they are wasting no time putting the new maps in.
---Brian
I was scrutinizing the new map posted at Columbus Circle yesterday. Yes, the service guide now has the late night 2 service pattern correct. (It's been local for a few years.) The W through lower Manhattan is also in parentheses, with a footnote explaining that it only runs there nights and weekends. Nice, but shouldn't the local stops north of Canal get similar treatment?
Yes, and the local stops along 4th Avenue should as well. If they're going to have these footnotes for all part-time service that diverges from the main route, they should also put one for the G running past Court Square to Forst Hills off-hours- and get rid of that stupid dotted green line. The average map reader doesn't know what that means from Adam.
For many years, on the commuter rail map, there has been no notation of connection to the N81 at LIRR Bethpage. That's still the case.
If they're going to have a close-up box at 121st on the J just for the Q10 stopping two blocks away (while omitting the 55 and 56), they should have one at the A terminus at Lefferts- which also offers the 112.
Eh? The 2 hasn't been Express 24/7 since Clinton stained a dress.
THAT'S why the 2 stops at Christopher St at night now!!
What?
What is the pun about Christopher St?
I am not sure I get it?
Is it a gay thing?
From PRESIDENT Street to Christopher, I figure.
From PRESIDENT Street to Christopher, I figure.
South Ferry got it. Actually, the divine Ms L lives much closer to the Christopher St PATH station than to Seventh Av. Are there trains from Penn Station to Westchester?
Only on Amtrak. They stop at Yonkers and Croton-Harmon.
SORRY 4 the double clicketty post of mine... :)
I just recieved the book titled "Subway Art" in the mail today. I was looking at the pictures and it wasn't just the amazing, painstaking work that some of these artists create, but I was lterally shocked and apalled to see that the entire interior of some of the trains were FULL of tagging. I wasn't aware of just how bad it looked inside the cars during this time. The interiors looked pathetic and awful. I would have definitely had my fears about riding a train with an interior that looked like that.
I'm sure you are thinking of the photo with the cops in the interior of one of the trains. The trains looked that bad, and worse. It was simply horrible how bad they looked. How quickly we forget. As bad as scratchiti is today, it doesn't even come close to how bad the trains were in the late 70's and early 80's.
Graffiti was truly a horror during the Bad Old Days. People unsure of their routes had to consult maps before entering trains, as the maps posted in each car were, like all other surfaces, completely covered.
As I recall, some of the roll signs were outta commission as well. Sometimes, the letter would be magic markered onto a piece of paper and scotch taped to where it would ordinarily go on the R42's, 44's and 46s
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hey! The ForgottenNY guy!! Your website is great, cat...I really love it. I especially got a kick out of the Regis Philbin Ave. thing, cause I'm from Cruger Ave.
Anyway, I was gonna say, Rollsigns? WHAT rollsigns? On the J, there'd be MAYBE one rollsign per car- I remeber staring lots of times laughing at that blank backlit off-white panel-or worse, NOTHING in there. When there WOULD be a rollsign on the J, instead of a white J on a black background, it'd be JJ in white on this nice ugly washed-out orange...so even when they had it right, they STILL didn't, goddamn it. *L*
I remeber staring lots of times laughing at that blank backlit off-white panel-or worse, NOTHING in there.
LOL! I remember that!
Yes, it was that bad, I think seats as well had tags and 'murals' on them. It was definitely depressing, if the outside of the car wasn't done cpmletely, it was done FROM THE INSIDE and the lack of lights [at times] inside the cars w/graffiti covering the windows made it real dark and you had to carry a map if you didn't know where you were going b/c the maps on the trains would be tagged as well. Then you had rampant crime and announcements were bad too so trains could skip your stop w/o you knowing, all this was a real balck eye on NYC in those days.
...Thanks, another person who knows first hand what I've been saying all along.
The worst was running down the stairs to try and catch a train with its doors open, and not having a clue whether it was the E or F, the B or the D, the 4 or the 5, or others because every damn route sign was painted over and you had to ask someone inside near the door (nine times out of 10 as the doors were beginning to close) what train you were about to jump on.
Norman Mailer did a book back in the 1970s gloifying the graffiti artists, though I'm sure Norm' probably couldn't have found the Clark Street station near his Brooklyn Heights brownstone if they had led him to the elevators, let alone actually ride the subway during that time (my wish was for him to arive home someday after a big book tour and find his entire building tagged and all the neighbors outside describing the wonderous artistic skills on display, but the Krylon crews never made it that close to the waterfront...)
The Norman Mailer book was titled "The Faith of Grafitti".
Thanks. I couldn't remember the name, but I remember the hype all too well.
It would have been fun to have seen just one interviewer ask Mailer (or anyone else who has published a pro-graffiti book) about their real life experiences riding the trains during the spray paint and marker era. Given Mailer's ego, I'm sure he would have thought both the question and the "problem" were besides the point and that art had to be given room to breathe and grow, even if the peons riding the trains five days a week couldn't see in or out of the windows (Mailer would apply the same rationale to literature a few years later and give the world Jack Henry Abbott. But hey, he did think the World Trade Center was an ugly piece of architecture and deserved to come down...).
I have never seen nor would I ever want to see this happen to the WMATA
I still cant believe what I am seeing in this picutre.
Yup, that's the one I thought you meant. The younger guys here have no idea how bad it really was.
Most of the graffiti was the filthy garbage in the photo in the above post. In last weeks "graffiti" thread, someone posted this link:
http://www.seenworld.com/html/trains.html
That website is fairly interesting. I was horrified, and I even remember the trains looking that way. The below photo is from that website, and was done right in the Zerega Ave station! I can't believe these guys used to get away with this. Although from the captions in the website, it seems that the police let him do this a Zerega.
We sure have come a long way from the early 80's. The system sure was out of control as can be seen from the photo in the above post with the cops.
What could possibly motivate the cops to side with the artists?
I have no idea, it's very wierd. See here for story:
http://www.seenworld.com/html/trpage13.html
I doubt the cops sided with the artists. The graffitti must've been done while the cops weren't in the car.
never mind, i should've read the page before i responded
What could possibly motivate the cops to side with the artists?
Mental illness - same as any other cop who goes bad and sides with the crooks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't think the 2 cops were siding with the artists. There were on their patrol and they stepped into a car where the vandals had struck and they ran into someone who had a camera.
I think there is a confusion here. The cops in the interior shot are not the ones that were are talking about. We were talking about the cops involved with the graffitied train that was done at Zerega Ave station in the weblink in one of the posts above.
...someone posted this link:
http://www.seenworld.com/html/trains.html
Not that I condone vandalism of public property, but I gotta say... That stuff is a hell of a lot more interesting to look at than another stupid advertizing "wrap" by Old Navy or Altoids.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
I spotted two of them that I'd consider "art" ... the "retirement" job and the "Happy Holiday" job ... I *wish* someone had captured the "Jungle Train" and the "Tina Turner" train though ... those truly WERE works of art ...
IMHO the "wraps" of transit vehicles are "legal vandalism".
Too bad they are not tagged enough to discourage the advertisers.
This "legal vandalism" makes money for the transit agency. Money that would otherwise have to be raised through fares and taxes.
how much money does the TA actually make off of the ads in the stations and the like?
oh wait i forgot, asking them to open their books is a no no.
Thats a piece of art there. I'm not supporting vandalism but I think that's a wonderful 'mural' there of Fred Flinstone & Barney with the palm trees and the sky in the background.
Here we go, THAT'LL flip some of these guys out.
I have a copy of that book. The authors of the book obviously side with the grafitti taggers; they seem to take the point of view that it's a shame when the MTA cleaned off cars and destoyed their work.
I often wondered if the book's authors ever found themselves in a situation where they were riding a train, and couldn't see out of the windows, and missed their stop.
So, let me get this straight- You were on a train once, and you missed your stop because you couldn't see out the window because it was covered with graffitti? This happened to you? I'm assuming you also missed your stop because the PA wasn't working, so you didn't hear that it was your stop. Why didn't you just move a few feet down the car and look out the window with no glass that I'm sure was there. No glass, no graffitti. Or, whe you got on a train that had no PA, why didn't you move to a car with no graffitti on the window, because you know you'd miss your stop, because it was the first time you rode the train home and didn't know all the stops on the way, and without a PA and since you couldn't look out the window you were completely deaf and dumb?
Give me a break-if you don't like graffitti, that's fine, I didn't like that shit either-just don't use those same sanctified lame un-reasons that most of the other indignant old ladies come up with.
Fine. I will, if you stop being a nasty, sarcastic prick.
In response to this post. I was once on a rush hour train jampacked with people going home. Every damn window was covered with graffitti and the PA as usual in those times was screechy and unintelligible. People were missing their stops throughout the entire ride.
>>>...and the PA as usual in those times was screechy and unintelligible<<<
Heh, just like the R-68s are now. The more things change.....
Peace,
ANDEE
ah the good old days. if you're shocked by such photos, well... you wouldn't have survived one ride back then...
Jeez--you're shocked, and you unwittingly gave me a warm fuzzy nostalgia feeling. Thanks.
If you're shocked, it's only because you are looking at that picture out of context-you obviously weren't living there as an adult when that picture was taken, because I've seen worse. I've been in cars with worse graffitti that that, but with the added pleasure of no glass in the door windows, and no lights. I'm assuming from certain clues in that picture that it's most likely on the 1, 2 or 3, mainline trains. You should have seen the condition of less important lines- I rode the fucking J and M at that time (mid to late 70's I'm guessing, from the cop's leather jacket and hair and moustache) and I'm here to tell you they were worse-WAY worse.
I hate to say this, but the typical 1/2/3 train was also much worse than that. Much worse.
I didn't ride the BMT or IND much in those days but I think the consensus is that the IRT was hit hardest with graffiti.
David, they might have been hit harder with graffitti, I agree, but the general condition of the IRT cars was much better. Well, I must qualify that by saying the cars on the 1, 2, and 3 were anyway-the cars on the 4 were in bad, bad shape.
On the J and M, we didn't have heat or lights in most cases. Broken out windows, which I always considered dangerous, were very common.
p.s. You should have seen the STATIONS- they'd scare you to death.
I'm sure you're right about that. (That's not to say we didn't have our share of problems, but I don't remember many broken windows.)
The above picture, as mentioned doesn't even come close to as bad as I remember the trains. I didn't ride the IRT too much when I was a kid, but man was the J/M/L bad. Forget about scratchiti, many times there was no windows in the doors. And if there was, they were many times shattered. I think the IRT got more of the full car graffiti, the quote-unquote "art" graffiti. (Which I still will never call art if it's destroying property). The BMT/IND trains didn't get that much. We got mostly the total "trash" graffiti. As bad as the IRT cars were, they can't compare to what the R16's and R27-30's looked like, although at points I'm sure they were close.
A for the stations, I think all the elevated stations were really bad. Someone mentioned that the stations on the J and M were really bad. Yes they were, but I'm sure all the stations on the elevated portions of the Bronx were also as bad. The underground stations were also bad, but they were able to clean them up easier and faster, although all the columns were covered with graffiti.
Believe it or not, the IND had it's share as well. If you thought the J,M, and L were bad, the A,C, and H were in the same boat. As a "retired" subway artist, the Pitkin, East New York, and Canarsie Yards were the easiest to get into in brooklyn. Also the easiest to escape. But now as an adult, I was wrong in doing these things as a kid. But on with the story:
A and C trains were crawling with R10, R27/30, and R38 cars. Before GOH, the Fulton Street line was a massive basketcase along with the BMT Eastern Division. I never recall seeing broken windows, but I remember the completely covered trains. So the IND had it as bad as the BMT. The cleanest train lines were the E,F, and N lines. At the time, N was on Queens Blvd. And the standard car on Queens Blvd was the R46. The R44 on the A and D lines were always painted on. Graffiti was a little rare on the R46. The G train was mostly R32 by the time I was using my "crayolas" on the system.
In turn, the IRT was the most sought after division for the "urban artists" of the time. With the exception of the 7 train, all IRT cars floated everywhere, not regulated to a single shop the way they have it now. And the IRT covers most city mileage: Bronx, Manhattan, and Queens. And all lines travel on an el at a certain point.
Our favorite viewing spot was at 149 St- Grand Concourse on the lower level. It was believed that if you lasted long on the 2 and 5, you got it made and were respected.
But alas, those days are gone and over with, thank goodness. All I can do now is just REMENISE.
The Eastern division [J,LL,M] was hit REAL hard, the hardest of the letter lines but the IRT got the worst of it no doubt, in terms of graffiti. And b/c they were 51' and layed up all over the system, it was easier to do whole car 'murals' on them.
I can remember getting on cars approx. 7 times worse, I took the IRT and BMT everyday that I went to work in the 70's, Ive gotten on trains you couldnt see out of ANY windows, and the PA was broken.
you mean you were on trains back then that actually had functioning PAs? we were lucky if the doors worked on the RR line...
Or if the lights worked on ANY line.
The RR was mainly R16's at the time, and they were bad everywhere, including my daily ride on the 'F'. I still do remember the PA working once and a while, that is if the C/R even bothered to make the anouncements.
Mainly R16's And R30's, almost forgot.
Hmmm...check out that 'Aqueduct' ad in the back. I wonder if it's the near and dear Aqueduct in Southern Queens?
The sick part is I remember many of those ads! I remember the "El Pico" one, the Aqueduct ad, and the Newport 100's ad.
Hmm, crowds sitting in a grandstand, horses running on a track.
No, it can't be Aqueduct.
You can't beleive you're seeing uniform cops with long hair??
No seriously, this was a clean car. I was confined to the GG through the late 70's and into the early 90's. Believe me, cars with missing windows, seats, etc., totally covered inside with marker (hand made with stolen chalkboard erasers for tips), covered outside with terrible Krylon throw ups, covered in filth in general, and also stinking like weed and/or pee, were not everyday, but pretty darn close. The entire city was out of control, and it showed. Glad it got cleaned up.
Sad that its heading back there again. Western end of 6th Ave on the L is starting to smell like the old days! I haven't been to 2nd Ave. F lately, but I can imagine.
Hey, guy--that really made me laugh, you hit the nail on the head.
"stinking like weed and/or pee"
*L*
Damn, they must have had R-16's on the GG, too. *L*
Nah, R32's mostly. Boogied in between the stations, esp. between H-S & Lafayette and Met-Grand (where it rained indoors for years) and Nassau. Kinda loud tho. We had a blue/green interior R32 for quite a while when the rest was MTA 1980 standard. When the R32's came back from M-K, the stainless looked like new, instead of coffee-stained grey.
Rush Hours were R10's (we had a sadistic motorman who loved pegging the handle in both directions, threw the unititiated to the floor). After they were retired and the R32's went elsewhere, we got the R44's/46's. I think it was alot of people complained that all we got was the old broken trains.
Don't get me started about how crappy the R40 slants were on the A back then.
I like the way the cars are lately much much better.
LOL! I recall them lovely chalk board eraser markers. I forget what they were called, but basically kids would get a bunch of erasers, a 2 or 3 liter soda bottle, fill it with ink, carve the top off and duct tape in the erasers for a felt tip, and go nuts with their nuclear powered marker. they were the fat caps of the marker world.
Wow, I gotta try making one of those, just for amusement and not for criminal purposes
i used to work in an art supply shop in high school. al the graffiti writers came to me for ink to fill them bottles, and in return from some of the smarter ones I got things like test answers before tests, etc...
the only real thing the NYC public school system was good for back then was an education in how to wheel and deal.
OMG, I had no idea it was THAT bad, only to get worse in the 1980's. I was born in the mid 80's so I never saw too much or don't remember b/c I was too young. My mom experienced this, told me all about the deferred maintenance days and I was like WOW! I wish I was able to experience what the subways were like back then. BTW, that woman looked so terrified EVEN with the cops there.
me too i was born in 86'- so by the time i rode the subway, the brighton was a sparkly clean, i used to live on I and 16th, and i never saw graffiti trains even as a kid
I was born in 1984 so I didn't really experience graffitied trains too much. Yup, the Brighton and the rest of the system was all cleaned up by 1989; well the stations weren't mostly cleaned until the early 90's.
Jeez, that green-and-gray interior paint scheme was horrible, wasn't it? :-)
I was thinking more about the mustaches without beards. Eeeesh.
With everyone describing how interiors of the trains were often in worse condition than the one shown in the picture above, I searched for additional interior pics that had been heavily vandalized on this site and others, but without much luck. Can anyone provide pictures (or a link) that shows interiors of cars that are also in poor condition? This would help people like me who did not experience this era to put images to everyone's descriptions.
Is that "Mr Blue" and "Mr Green" there.
Ah, those were the days. But as I said before, my art stays on paper now.
I LOVE THIS PICTURE!!!
I have to fix 21st century vandalism on R142s. I leave the worst for the public to enjoy....etchings inscribed with hardened steel tooling
into stainless steel door pilasters, formica wall panels and window surrounds is permanent. Love it, suck up the fare increase. Even the flooring is being ripped up...CTAs use 'Tuff Guy' surfactant almost full stregnth and buckle the linoleum. I don't ride my trainsets anymore...if the garbage in the front seat of my automobile bugs you, just pick it up and toss it behind to the back seat. CI Peter
OK folks, if you are gonna have a pic of a graffiti laden train from the 80's with 2 cops in it, at least show one where one of the cops is me!!! If I recall correctly we were on our way from the 73rd Pct in Brownsville where I worked at the time to the Statue of Liberty Centennial Detail in downtown Bklyn in 1986. I think the train was the Fulton Street Line. Since angelfire doesn't allow remote loading I cannot supply a link. You have to paste the url in your address box to view it: http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/images/73pct/Me_Subway_with_Gene_Murray.jpg
By the way, to you guys that know me, yes I was once that young!!!
Link doesn't work, Jeff... even cut and pasted. Gets the Angelfire logo. Guess you'll have to create a skeleton html page.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks Chris. Although I really didn't want to do it because of the ads I made a fast webpage. Its at http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/JeffRsubway.html I'm the guy on the left.
Hey-
Is that the J train???
Dude-when was that??
Were you a transit cop in East New York in the mid 80's by any chance?
No, never transit, always NYPD. As a subway buff I would have liked to be a transit cop though.
Oh, OK--
This is pretty funny, but when I saw your picture, I could have SWORE you were a cop who busted me smoking a Marlboro on the upstairs LL platform of the Broadway Junction/East NY station late one cold night in the winter of '83...I was a real greaser back then (I was 20 years old) and I'd smoke in the subway any chance I got. *L*
The guy gave me some flak and let me go with a warning instead of a ticket, which to be honest with you, I NEVER once got a ticket for smoking...the cops always let me go. Fare-hopping, I got a ticket for once or twice. *L*
I guess now I'll have to change my handle to J-TrainTony the Subway Skell, eh? *L*
That's OK, until I quit, I always smoked on the subways.
*L*
Now I'm cracking up- thanks, friend. :)
It seems to be a R27 or R30. It's probably around 1985 or so because I think earlier than that they still had "Please keep hands...off the door." on the doors.
I think in another post he says it's '86 and he's on the Fulton St. line, so I think it's a R-38.
When was "No se apoye" phased out? It's the only Spanish I know.
I forgot when they got rid of the "No se apoye". I think it left with the R27-30's, although it may also have been on the IRT redbird classes for a period after that. I know all the rebuilt cars came back from rebuilding with the "Don't lean on the doors" black stickers instead.
It's also one of the only Spanish phrases I can say. I figure it will come in handy one day when I'm stuck in a Spanish-only speaking country and I need to tell someone not to lean on a door.
Sometime in the early 90s. I remember the R-68s had them when brand new.
Peace,
ANDEE
He said its from 1986. Looks like a R27/R30 b/c most of these cars had red orange doors on the inside.
It probably isn't an R27-30, after closer looking, the stainless strips didn't look like that on the R30's. They only had a little strip high up that was attatched with screws. I now think it may be an R38 like J-Train said.
Now that I saw it closely, most likely it is not a R27/30 but then again the car could have been modified.
Hey Jeff, "NO SE APOYE CONTRA LA PUERTA"!!!!!
Wow, that brings back so many memories. The orange doors, etc. As bad as it was, I wish I could go back just for one day and ride around.
Hey, Sarge, is that a gun in your pocket, or are you just happy to be ridin' an R-27/30? :)
Is THAT a nuclear felt tip I see in your hand? Tsk tsk ... :)
What was amazing to me here was the fact that none of the advertising placards had any form of graffitti on them....Go figure.
Actually, while the graffitied surfaces remained for years, the ads were changed frequently.
When were redbirds eradicated on the brighton line?
why does the entire bmt div have silver type cars and the redbirds still exist on the irt
I don't know how long the Brighton line had the R30's [the BMT/IND Redbirds] but they were retired in 1993 so that's why you have the cars you have now [R32 and up]. The majority of them; maybe all of the sets ran on the A and C lines although I have seen them on the F a few times around 1992. The 7's fleet is mostly Redbirds and there aren't enough R142's on the mainlne IRT to make the Redbird fleet in the IRT extinct just yet [the 7 becomes all R62A's once the R142 order is complete].
I would guess that the last time the Brighton Line operated R27/30s was in 1987. The phasing out of R27/30s on the Brighton Line began when the Manhattan Bridge was closed to 6th Ave. service in 1986. Before this, the bulk of the "M" and the "Q" were R27/30s. A handful also operated on the "D" as well. When the bridge was closed, the "M" was transferred to 4th Ave., taking the R27/30s with it. The "Q" became a full time weekday service and began operating whatever the Southern division "D" operated at the time which were mainly R32s, R40 slants and modified, R42s and a small handful of R27/30s. They were finally phased out in 1987 by the R68s.
As for the "A" and "C", it's kind of interesting.
First, the lower numbered R27s (ie 80xx) never ran in regular service on the "A" and "C". They ONLY operated 81xx and 82xx (up to 8249). The "A" ONLY operated the R27s in regular service for a brief period of time-during the overhaul of the R38s in 1987-88. The "C" pretty much operated all R27/30s except for the lower numbered R27s from 1986 until 1993. R27s arrived on the "C" in 1986, they were replaced by rebuilt and unrebuilt R30s (8250-8349 and 8412-8569 respectively) in 1989; unrebuilt R30s were replaced by rebuilt R30As (8350-8411) in 1990; rebuilt R30s and R30As were replaced by R32s in 1993.
As far as the "F", are you talking about R32s or R27/30s? I've never seen any R27/30s on the "F" on a regular basis in 1992 as well as any other year.
I believe the R-30s lived out their last days on the "C" line and were "officially" retired on May 30, 1993
#3 West End Jeff
I was reading the entire post on that picture of the cops in the tagged rail car, and one you guys said the stations were even worse.
How bad were they?
Maybe it's just the curoisity in me, because I've never even came close to having a true sniff of what the bad days were like, seeing as I was born in '84 and in Wheaton, MD.
Also, if windows were broken and interior lights missing from the cars, what happens during the night? If you can't see your way through the car and the cold air from outside is blowing through the empty window frames, I mean, couldn't the city deem the cars un-rideable and unsuitable for service?
Due to horrible MDBF's, they really didn't have a choice but to run those cars, if they were able to run, they ran no matter what. The stations from what I've seen in pictures, geez they were just BAD, I don't even know what to say about that. Outdoor stations full of graffiti, peeling paint, a lot of stations had wooden floors until the 1970's, poor or no lighting just depressing. Indoor stations got hit very bad [especially local side platforms], in fact worse in terms of graffiti, loads of missing tiles, dim lights. Also the refridgerator tiles of the 1970's made some stations very ugly, and is still there on the 4 Av line to this day.
I was the one who said the stations were worse.
Picture this-
You go to a subway station, for the sake of the description, we'll say somewhere out of Manhattan, because Manhattan always had it better, more people, tourists, etc. Let's say somewhere like 205th on the D. So, you go down the stairs, and it's an obstacle course, because of all the bottles, broken and whole, and diapers, and candy wrappers, and gum, etc. Anyway, garbage on the stairs. Then you got to the mezzanine, and theres more garbage. There may be a garbage can, but of course it's on its side, with its lovely and varied stinky rotten stuff pouring out. Well, that was put there by the civilized humans, the uncivilized ones just threw their garbage on the floor. But you have to be careful, because there are so many missing or broken lightbulbs down in the station that it's really dim, so you can't even see the piss puddles you are trying to avoid stepping in. You buy your token, even though you hate pulling your money out because you might get mugged, and there aren't any cops, because they're not crazy enough to go down into the subway, and that guy in the token booth really ain't gonna help you, because he's trapped in there trying to survive himself. Luckily, 205th isn't a drug neighborhood, so you're probably not going to get mugged by a psycho junkie, but you might get mugged by just your average everyday mugger. Don't forget, it's dark down there. AND desolate. So, now, you go through the turnstiles, and down the stairs to the platform, dodging more garbage, this time with rats running around. It's just as dark on the platform, and it smells like human shit and piss. It's cold, and there's water dripping, stinky water. There's graffitti everywhere, and the station signs are either out of date, or painted over, if there ARE any station signs. You can't sit down, because either there's a bum sleeping on the bench, or there's spilled Coca Cola, or gum, or a used rubber.
Luckily, there's only one train that comes to 205th St., because between the graffitti and no rollsigns, and of course the PA's broken, you won't have any idea what train you're getting on.
WOW.
It just seems so surreal. I can't possbly imagine how much worse stations in bad neighborhoods were.
Yeah, well, I could have told you about Marcy on the J. Wooden platform, with wood missing, so you have to step over holes that you can look down to the street through. Junkies shooting up.
BELIEVE IT! In the bad neighborhoods, especially the Eastern Division they had it far worse but there was no dodging this, the epidemic was ALL OVER THE SYSTEM, no way of finding a safe place in 'The Jungle'. But no one line was as bad as the Franklin shuttle, it was in the ABSOLUTE worst condition to mankind, it was even inhumane for the homeless, they would smoke crack, piss all over the place and do drugs though, particularly Dean St. The structure was brittle like toothpicks [I'm using an analogy here] but you see how bad it was.
Then you had like 2000 track fires a year, loads of garbage, derailments were commonplace, slow speed orders, unscheduled service disruptions EVERY DAY, heavy crime, skyrocketing murder rates; mostly by people being pushed in front of trains, just horrible.
I do not know too much about what caused the economical state in the late 70's and early 80's, but what exactly started the downward spiral?
I don't know myself, really....I remember the 60's, things seemed fine, but all of a sudden in the early 70's things went seriously downhill. Vietnam, maybe? I know that Vietnam was a pretty big drain on the economy.
When the city went through a fiscal crisis in 1975, they had to make major decisions and most were chosen very poorly & ultimately put the city in that horrible condition. The grave decision was laying off cops, firefighters, hospital workers, whatever it could save money on they cut down on these public services. This meant graffiti & crime would become more rampant in subways and the city itself, which made NYC more unsafe each year and for the next 15 years, we went through all this shit until the subway GOH [General Overhaul] took place and Mayor Dinkins hiring more cops, which really helped start the downturn in crime all over.
To go a little deeper, you would NOT want to be in the Bronx in those days especially, all the burnt out buildings that were burned deliberately by landlords to get insurance and junkies made it look like a war zone and looking from the elevated subway lines made it look even worse.
In the subways, starting in 1973 things started to go down SHARPLY. Many lines were eliminated. For cost cutting measures the 3 Av el in the Bronx closed down being replaced by the BX55. Then the Culver shuttle in Brooklyn closed in 1975, eliminating a shortcut to the West End line. Then in 1977 due to people saying the el was too dark, the Jamaica el east of Queens Blvd was cut back. Then businesses actually went backwards, losing a LOT OF business due to razing the el and in 1985, the el east of 121 St was eliminated and now the subway only goes as far as Jamaica Center[it previously went to 168 St, which was a little further east] and the new subway was supposed to go further into Queens but only 2 new stations [three on the E] was ever built.
Derailments and other delays were so common that the newspapers had a separate box each day listing the ones from the day before. Employess would use these articles as evidence to explain why they were late for work.
I can tell you directly from growing up in the Rockaway's that it was no piece of cake.
Somehow people think it's bad now, if we are really facing the sort of layoffs and cutbacks being spoken of, you will be able to witness what we natives call the "dark ages"
Regards,
Mark Valera
www.transitalk.org
The stations were tore up from the floor up no matter what type of neighborhood the station was located in. Where ever there was a blank spot, their was graffiti. They even wrote on the platform in some cases.
I remember one station in particular, the 2 Ave. station on the "F" in Manhattan. That station was so filthy and pissy that when the train stopped and open the doors, the smell would go all through the subway car.
I remember one station in particular, the 2 Ave. station on the "F" in Manhattan. That station was so filthy and pissy that when the train stopped and open the doors, the smell would go all through the subway car.
Sounds like Bowery used to be.
Wow. That really took me back!
Wimps these days think its bad, everyday on my daily commute I'd see junkies, whinos, bums, garbage, graffiti, human waste, broken glass (everywhere), newspapers, and un-known 'spills' everywhere. Every couple days you would notice the guy sitting three seats down from you that looked like he wanted to blow your brains out. Don't even think about taking the subway past 1:00am, certain death. We are seeing the starts of this all over again, although, I'm pretty sure it won't get AS bad as it did in the 70's. Lets just hope not...
EVERY square inch of EVERY station was covered in graffiti. The elevated stations were hit the hardest, but even the underground ones were bad. Mosaics? What mosaics? Even the tiled walls were many times covered, alothough they were cleaned up fairly early on, although the columns remained strewn with graffiti.
Here's a photo of a graffitited station. It's not the greatest photo, but it's one of the only ones I have of a graffitied station. I only started taking photos in the very early 90's, and was more interested at the time in the clean stations, because they were the rarity. As you can see Bay Parkway is finally getting cleaned up in this photo (1991), probably after more than 15 years of looking like this. The roof beams are already painted soon the plague will be gone, and slowly they will move on to the next station.
Whew, that was BAD, BTW its Bay Parkway on the F. The el stations got hit so badly, I've seen pics of graffiti on the A at Aqueduct/N Conduit and its even worse than that, and it was painted white I believe. In fact, you could still see the remains of it b/c of the peeling paint near the colsed portion of N Conduit Av. But I still say the Eastern div. was hit the hardest.
Oh the stations looked pretty bad. I'm not sure if they were quite as bad as the trains. The litter problem was pretty bad and lots of graffiti. If the station had a bench it was usually beat up badly too. If the station had rest room... you were living dangerously to enter many of them. It was just a bad period. I say this though... As bad as things were with the system being neglected you were almost guaranteed a fun and fast ride. It was really rapid transit in those days.
Wayne
There was no SubTalk in those days, of course, but do y'all think that there was a significant railfan presence? What kept you interested, in spite of the environment? Were there foamers?
Amazingly enough, I started to really love the subway and get "into it" around 1984 when I started to use it daily for school. 1984 was the edge of the mountain, when things were still quite bad, and they were only beginning the long battle to recovery. Of course the seed was already planted when I was a kid in the 70's riding with my father (who hated the subway - or at least said he did), but being the 70's doesn't say much, because as a young child, I only remember the subway as in total shambles - I always loved it though.
I don't know- it wasn't till I joined this board that I realized I wasn't alone in my subway interest-my grandmother told me I always liked the trains, you could see the White Plains elevated from her back porch, and everytime a train went by she told me I would run and watch it, and that's before I remember..like I was 2 or 3 years old only.
When I was growing up, I wouldn't even bother telling people I liked the subway, because people would look at me like I was insane.."What the hell do you like that smelly, dangerous thing for??" was a common response. In fact, once I was talking to a guy I knew about another guy we knew (this was in 1982) and the guy I was talking to said "You know what kind of a fuckin' maniac that guy is? He's a subway freak, can you imagine? He knows all the car models and shit--what a fuckin' NUT" So you see, I thought I was strange to like 'em.
Ameng.
You know how they say the Internet "has something for everyone"...
...well one day I popped "New York City Subway" into a search
engine and it was THAT search which lead me to the land of
the Holy Pirmann shrine to the GRANDEST thing since Krispy Kreme.
I can MEEKLY remember riding the r10/14/15/17/21/22s...
I can remember 81st-Museum of Natl. History being dark like
a wet cardboard box with only one-string of lights and the
r40 slants running WITHOUT INTERIOR LIGHTS on the AA..
(with someone lighting a cigarette lighter in order to read
the Map)
For the life of me, I DO NOT REMEMBER the r27/30s.. I guess back
then I must have mistook them for being (redbirds) being that they
bore resemblance to what was on the 1 and I guess in a 5 year old's
mind that was just "them sharing cars with another line".
1SF9
Yes, the subway was a constant butt of jokes, source of complaints and it was used as a barometer of how bad the city declined from it's height. If I had a dime for everytime my grandmother used to praise the days when the BMT was privately run, I'd be a millionaire.
I've been railfanning since I was a kid in Far Rock in the 1970s. The system was in HIDEOUS condition, the trains were covered in graffiti, there were passenger MUTINIES when trains broke down, BUT:
At Freeman Street, every MAN rode FREE (the gate was tied open)
The trains were faster than they are today
There were more lines (Third Ave. in the Bronx and Culver Shuttle in Bklyn.)
The trains had personality. They were theatrical, and more fun to ride than todays technoboxes
The E Train ran all the way to the ocean...from Jamaica!
Less A/C but the train windows really opened
Nedicks NY and Orange Bang
The crews didn't mind letting the crazy railfan kids have handle time on the Rock Park Shuttle on its turnaround (no passengers) at How Beach
and Finally there were NO nostalgia trains. The R-1/9s were STILL in service all over the system!
Finally there were NO nostalgia trains. The R-1/9s were STILL in service all over the system!
There were Nostalgia Trains starting in 1977, maybe even 1976, I am not 100% sure. But I know that certain R-1/9s were deemed "museum cars" as they travelled around the system with the other "non-museum" cars. In fact, equipment shortages were so bad that the museum cars actually became put-ins! The Nostalgia Trains, which ran from about Memorial Day to Labor Day ran every weekend (sometimes mroe than one per weekend) and the fare was, ready for this, $3.00!!
--Mark
There were ERA sponsered railfan trips well before the 1970's. Here's a pic of one for the multisection cars on the J line back in 1961:
You'll be happy to know that I saw on the news today that a Nedick's juat reopened in Penn Station.
Although I'm risking a bunch of posts arguing with me on this, you have to know its human nature to exaggerate (both positively & negatively) when talking about the past. Most of these posters describing subway train hell are exaggerating to a degree. I've been riding on the subway since I was a toddler in the fifties. If I remember the trains were grafitti laden and dirtier in the 70's & 80's but believe me they were not as bad as posters are describing. I always remember the subways as OK and always fun to ride. My biggest complaint about the 80's was that there were no more pre-war trains such as R1-9's.
You have a point-although I'm not so much exaggerating, as I am condensing alot of my 70's and 80's bad experiences into one picture...I thought of that as I was writing up those posts.
Finally, the little slices of metal may be gone
Peace,
ANDEE
Fun Passes should not be $7! You would need to take 4 rides to recover the cost! The fun pass should be maybe $5 or $5.50.
---Brian
As a user of Funpasses when I visit NYC, I was a bit shocked by that 75% increase too. However, you can make a case for it. The Funpass is meant for tourists. Hotels, restaurants, etc., make money off the tourists, why shouldn't the MTA make some too, and ease the burden on NYC residents a little? $7 is very little alongside what the tourist will be paying for hotel and meals, and a lot better value than Gray Line or Circle Line! The present $4 puts you in profit after three trips; $7 puts you in profit after four trips assuming a $2 base fare. I'll still buy them at $7!
No, the point of the Fun Pass, like the other unlimiteds, is to encourage off-peak travel without actually imposing a (politically difficult) off-peak discount or peak surcharge. Anybody who only travels to and from work (most likely during rush hour) is best off with a pay-per-ride, but those who make additional trips beyond two per weekday pay less if they use unlimiteds.
Besides, even if this did only affect the tourist (it doesn't; New Yorkers use Fun Passes all the time), I don't think gouging tourists is a good idea. Some tourists are on budgets, you know.
Perhaps there should be two day passes: a one-day unlimited for $7.00 with no restrictions and a Fun Pass for $5.50 not valid on weekdays between 6:30 and 9:30am.
Make that $5.25 for the Fun Pass. $5.50 is slightly more than three pay-per-ride fares assuming a 10% bonus on a $2 base fare.
"Perhaps there should be two day passes: a one-day unlimited for $7.00 with no restrictions and a Fun Pass for $5.50 not valid on weekdays between 6:30 and 9:30am."
That is a good idea, and parallels what happens in London. Except that the London ticket not valid before 9.30 a.m. costs the equivalent of about $8 already! Maybe it's my British origins that make me think that NYC fares will be a bargain even after these increases.
I like the idea of a commutation ticket for the subway. It would be the cheapest of the metrocards. It is good for only one round trip daily from one designated station to another. In other words: You specify what two stations it is good at, and you get one admission per day at each of those stations. (Actually, they would be clusters of stations, ince it is reasonible that you may walk about a few blocks and wish to go home from a different station. ~~ so say your Manhattan station might be 34th/42nd Street (all lines) and your home station might be DeKalb-Pacific-Nevins or something like that.)
Elias
I don't see the point of this idea on a system with a flat-rate base fare, not distance-related fares.
I don't think you'll have to impose two different prices for the Fun Pass. A fair price would be $6 at all times.
In DC, the 1 day passes don't work until 9:30, which is the end of rush hour. They are good all day on weekends and federal holidays. The cost is 5 dollars daily.
The fun pass is the most abused MetroCard. Every day, i see tons of people buy one fun pass and then wait 18 minutes and pass it to a friend who enters and waits 18 minutes and passes it to a friend and....
I think the cost should be $7 and the wait increased to one hour. When PATH had a monthly card there was a once per hour limit.
One hour is much too long. Many people have to take a lot of short trips and make them in less than hour between entries. This plan would also put an end to walking transfers.
Cutting out the 18 minute wait would also make it easier for swipers to sell rides to customers.
I'm not in favor of cutting out the 18 minute rule, just against extending it to one hour.
The limit applies using the card "At the same Station: Let's say you used it at 47 and 6, you could use it at another station.
The fun pass is the most abused MetroCard. Every day, i see tons of people buy one fun pass and then wait 18 minutes and pass it to a friend who enters and waits 18 minutes and passes it to a friend and....
I think the cost should be $7 and the wait increased to one hour. When PATH had a monthly card there was a once per hour limit.
The 18-minute wait is enough to prevent people from traveling as a group on one card, and makes swipe-selling difficult unless the seller makes a fairly substantial "investment" in fun passes. I believe those were the goals behind the wait, not the complete prohibition of pass-backs.
You CANNOT do that. Increasing the wait to one hour won't make a lot of sense IMO plus people run errands and do other things that are short trips.
These are republican times. Fun is STRICTLY prohibited, and good citizens are required to drop dime on anyone SUSPECTED of having any fun. Can't let the terrorists win by allowing people to smile now ... or have FUN riding the subways.
Think of it as a "dividend pass" ...
All of that is what I'd heard over a month ago, and when TWU ate the "no layoff" clause, some of the overseers here, 150 miles AWAY from the subways were getting downright giddy. If the token DOES go away (they were concerned NYC residents would NEVER go for that) then you're down to ONE "station agent" per station complex. Two for a stop where there's no passageway from one side to the other and ONE for a place as large as Grand Central on the Lex ... conversion to "Information" booths for those who would remain.
One of the STRANGER things I heard from the study group people was "fare control" for the commuter railroads with "entry and exit swipes" to enable the elimination of "Assistant conductor" titles and "collector" titles there. The MANTRA though was "reduction in workforce" ... that was the ONE thing they were shooting for. Even talk of "privitization" of car equipment where contractors would maintain the fleet. Kawasaki's willingness to remain in Yonkers was one of the issues, as well as expansion of the Bombardier facility upstate along with contruction of a new maintenance facility somewhere in Queens.
Now before anyone starts flipping out, this was all STUDY GROUP stuff, the "what if" department ... but I'm surprised to see one of them proposed for real, and the fare hikes recommended ARE what I'd heard in each of the categories. The $2.00 fare WILL be reality, I'm just amazed at how many of the OTHER angles are in play at the moment which suggests that the target fare of $2.50 I had heard ***IS*** real, and they're now looking at "other savings" to pare it down to just $2.00 ...
Wow. :(
I heard from the study group people was "fare control" for the commuter railroads with "entry and exit swipes" to enable the elimination of "Assistant conductor" titles and "collector" titles there.
Exit swipes are not necessary. If a ticket is good only at Merrick and at NYP, then the risk of someone taking a return trip to Babylon is small. His car is still parked in Merrick, and probably collecting parking tickets for a stay of longer than 24 hours. Besides, if he *does* get off in Babylon, he will not be able to get back on in Babylon, because Babylon isn't Merrick.
Simple, yes?
Elias
Buy a ticket from Penn to Kew Gardens get off at Montauk. Simple, no?
METROCARD ... Pay for mileage USED ... wherever you get on or off. Objective: No more "tickets" ... deposit monthly amount, numbers jive ... screw with Bruno, Whoops. Red lights, shoe inspection, bulls round you up.
We're talking BRUNO here ... do you REALLY think there's a difference in HIS eyes (defender of Trent Lott) between the "pond scum of Nassau" vs. "Pond scum of Brooklyn?" Do ya? Sheesh. SUFFOLK and PUTNAM is low-lives compared to the good denizens of Rensselaer county. To quote Don Bruno, "ain't nothing but ("N-word")" south of Putnam ... SCREW 'em ...
Don't matter if you're from the Bronx or Oyster Bay Cove ... LOWLIVES ALL ... no joke ... some of my fellow subtalkers from upstate can chide in here and "make it real" ...
Sounds like I need to get me one of them there trailers.
Is there anything to do in Rensselaer county other than to go to the ballpark and have carnal relations with your sister?
Nope, that's pretty much it other than standing outside the Wal*Mart and putting your tongue on the sign posts. :)
You'd have to git yourself one of dem shotguns too!
Nah, they come with the peecup truck. Everyone up here goes for the wild west gunrack option.
Entrance and exit swipes were in operation in Philadelphia in 1976 during the ARRL Atlantic Division radio amateur conference and the American Legion conference. Their system is zoned...stations on the weekend have no station agents, are monitored by television cameras and violators are yelled at by PA speakers. 'Yo homey...you have not collected enough deposit cans to exit.' CI Peter
I just have this picture of people at Hempstead waiting to swipe to exit ... BUZZ! Strikes me as silly, much like the other so-called plans fleshed out by folks who have never SEEN a subway, much less used one. Or commuter rail. T'would be nice if the "strategic planners" had ever set foot on what they're planning. But the old Chicago business school philosophy ("you don't need to know HOW to make widgets, you only need to COUNT them") applies up here in Smallbany ... Dilbert on steroids ...
$1.50 to $2 is a 33% increase, so the other rises are in step, except for the Funpass.
Question: When were LIRR and MNR fares last raised? If it is *more* recently than the last rise in the subway base fare, then the 33% increase in suburban rail fares is unfair. And of course 33% of hundreds of dollars per month is a lot more dollars than 33% of a $3/day round trip on the subway.
There are good sociopolitical reasons for hitting the rich suburbanites, but somehow I wouldn't expect those arguments to weigh with Pataki.
The SUBURBANITES were spared from the ramifications of incredibly poor judgement by their republican anointed this year out of fear of a backlash in Nassau and Westchester where once the republicans ruled (CASO, anyone?) but elections have been less predictable.
I've indicated how we got the coarse grit enema upstate PRIOR TO the election (because they feared us not) ... all this time, the bad economics have been catching up with the suburbs, but the pain was put off for an entire fiscal year. Result? Paturkey ain't going to run again, Bruno won UNOPPOSED, and NOW ... heh ... reality comes home to roost. "Aid to localities," SCRAPPED ... STAR tax credits for school and property taxes, FROZEN for a year upstate, abolished downstate.
33% hikes for commuter is nothing, wait until the suburban counties get their property and school taxes later in 2003. Current estimates PRIOR to Hoe Bruno's announcement yesterday were a 75 to 85% hike in property AND school taxes, just heard it will be a LOT more ... surcharges on electric, gas and phone, and severe cutbacks in other funding. Simple reality called "unfunded mandates" and every county in the state will be stuck with their own medicaid costs. Owie ...
I'll post a new "Pain anyone?" thread next which will link to what little we have until Paturkey and Bruno come up with the "Governor's budget message" on January 29th (delayed two weeks from normal because the pain just keeps MULTIPLYING as the numbers fail to add up) ... anyone who remembers my posting of the original "we'll be behind by $10 billion" from Senator Joey ... well, now it's TWELVE and rising daily ...
UPSTATE paid towards it this fall ... downstate did not ... double or nothing, and it ain't nothing. That's why New York's a gambling state. House wins. You don't. Any questions? :(
And at the next election, I'm sure Bruno will win again. By then people will have forgotten about the tax and fare hikes. And Bruno will be spending money on his campaign talking about the carrots he'll give out pretending to ease our burdens and hardships.
Feel free to substitute Bruno's name with any professional politican you like.
Bruno's SPECIAL though ... he ran UNOPPOSED ... the Dummycraps have *NO* *BALLS*!!! Of COURSE he'll be re-elected. Would YOU screw with a Gotti? I think not. :(
But yeah, politicians are scum, and the voters are morons who actually BELIEVE Rush. What can I say? We're STILL screwed ... MAJOR LEAGUE screwed ... and the end is nowhere in sight, because we gave the screwage a LANDSLIDE. Me? I live in the sticks. Ain't no politicans here. They wouldn't DARE come out here. WE have guns. (well not me personally, but my neighbors do - they'd have to get past THEM) :)
Once again, sorry to all for my whining, but I *knew* this was coming, I only tried to wise folks up. Silly me.
Why wouldn't tokens be abandoned concurrent with the fare hike? Before MetroCard was widespread, the TA had to either spend a lot of money minting new tokens and adjusting the turnstiles or lose a lot of money from hoarders. That's unnecessary now. Let leftover tokens continue to be valid on buses for $1.50. Maybe on the subway, too -- swipe a MetroCard to cover the rest of the fare (or drop in another token and overpay).
And, to help it along, ALL the meetings are scheduled to start at 4:00pm when a goodly hunk of the populace is still at work or on their way home.
Alex L.
You are using Netscape 7.0! Hehehehe......
7.01 has Pop-up blockers. Theyre great.
Anyway, you ought to go to preferences and disable automatic password and form remembering stuff. That way you won't have a gay motorman trying to play with the tokens or whatever!
: ) Elias
Sorry. I've been sampling new browsers for my new iMac and missed it in Netscape. Even though IE came bundled with it, I couldn't convince it to remember previously visited links, any more than I could stop it from refreshing SubTalk EVERY time I went back (no visited links, no NEW on the edges - I couldn't tell where I was)
Try downloading Netscape 4.79 from the Netscape site, I swear by it.
I use it on my Mac at home and my PC at work.
MTA has been talking about getting rid of tokens for some time now. It looks like it's finally going to happen.
That leaves Philadelphia and Boston among cities still minting and recycling tokens...oh, and, if I am not mistaken, Santa Monica Municipal Bus Lines in Calif. still makes and accepts its own tokens (or did they kill that, too? Where's Old Tom?)
Do straphangers in Baltimore and Chicago use tokens?
MARTA still uses tokens, our fare system SUCKS.
The good thing is that MARTA acknowledges that the fare system sucks, and they have already put out an RFP to replace th whole system with a smart card system. It should be replaced in a couple of years.
>>> if I am not mistaken, Santa Monica Municipal Bus Lines in Calif. still makes and accepts its own tokens <<<
I do not know about Santa Monica, but LACMTA sells tokens at 10 for $9.00, with a regular fare of $1.35 during the day, and $0.75 on buses at night. Many other bus lines in L.A. County will accept those tokens. I believe, but am not sure, that the ticket machines on the rail lines will accept them also for a one way fare.
Tom
Tokens in Baltimore are still sold (currently 10 for $13.00, a nickel off the cash fare) but almost no one uses them. Passes, in the weekly and monthly versions are so heavily used that a single cash fare is rarely ever seen. For the non-pass users we have a day pass, sold on all buses and at all subway and light rail ticket machines for $3.00 and good for the entire day of purchase.
The farebox vault pullers report that the majority of what is dumped into the vault room safe is mostly one dollar bills, very little coins . The last time the tokens, which come to the customers in little plastic bags, were packaged was 1999. They just don't sell.
Then why don't they just dump them?
Peace,
ANDEE
Don't really know.
The tokens are marked "United Railways and Electric Co." on the obverse and "Good For One Fare" on the reverse. UR&E was the predecessor company's name in 1918, when 15 million tokens were minted. There are prehaps 3 million of the 15 still in the hands of today's MTA.
Perhaps 3 packs are sold per week. They can only be purchased at the Transit Store in the William Donald Schaefer Building, the MTA's headquarters.
If the token are ever totally eliminated, BSM wants them, but what we will do with 3 million small tokens, we don't know. We have our own, which came in two batches of 5,000 each in 1970 and 1976. We still have about 7,500 of them. The BSM tokens are used in our admission process, since our Board had decreed that the patron has to deposit something in a farebox or have it collected by a conductor on their first trip. They then receive a transfer and as long as they have a transfer, they have unlimited rides for their admission.
I hope Subtalkers attend hearings and offer their opinions. MTA needs to hear from you!
Or, write:
Metropolitan Transportation Authority
347 Madison Av
NY NY 10017
Their web site is down. I get a 404! probably overloaded with gripes. Keep the booths. I thik they should go to a two step plan:
1- raise to $2.00 and keep tokens as a2.50 puruchase.
2- the next year raise fare to $3 fro tokens and $2.50 for MetroCard.
A machine can not call for help when a customer gets stbbed or ill and needs help. The machine cannot call for help when a customer with a bike or stroller tries to use the high wheel and gets stuck. I know they say not to use a high wheel for strollers or bikes but people do not listen. If the HEET, MVM or MEM takes your money and gives no card ro does not allow entry do you want to walk 3 blocks in the rain at 3am.
If we allow this round of closings how long will it be before there will be one booth for several stations- let them walk from 8th to 6th to buy their farf. Next., they can walkf rom 8th to 7th. now let's cut all 34 and make them walk to 42 and 7th*- after all it is just once every 30 days .cant walk- get off at 42 once per month and wait an hour for the overworked human.
NYC is not Atlanta, DC, Philly,. Once I had to ride PATH overnight when NJT was out. At Newark Penn they had an agent!
If you are posting about crime now, think of what ity will be when we are gone. Already at Tremont on the D crime is rampant on the former secondary booth location which is now unattended and has HEETs.
I do not believe that they really need people to sell MetroCards. Machines can handle that. Station Agents should be employed to maintain safety in the station. Instead of sitting in the booth for how many hours, S/As will walk around, help answer questions, make sure the station is clean, and everything is working, much like what a station manager in DC does. If the union doesn't like it, too bad. The job isn't being eliminated, just changed.
I do not believe that they really need people to sell MetroCards. Machines can handle that. Station Agents should be employed to maintain safety in the station. Instead of sitting in the booth for how many hours, S/As will walk around, help answer questions, make sure the station is clean, and everything is working, much like what a station manager in DC does. If the union doesn't like it, too bad. The job isn't being eliminated, just changed.
You know that, and I know that, but unfortunately too many New Yorkers are too resistant to change. If there ever were a city that's totally behind the curve when it comes to any sort of progress and change, it's New York.
I think the main reason is that, they don't want to give up their cozy little, climate controlled booths. Gasp! They might have to deal with the "riff-raff" face to face.
Peace,
ANDEE
The "riff-raff" would be more inclined to get into those climate controlled booths than corner the people walking around outside. Where do you think the money is?
If the booth is closed why would there be any money in it?
Peace,
ANDEE
If the booth is used to store supplies for the agent to work with, Someone will get the bright idea there is also money in it.
"A machine can not call for help when a customer gets stabbed or ill and needs help. The machine cannot call for help when a customer with a bike or stroller tries to use the high wheel and gets stuck. I know they say not to use a high wheel for strollers or bikes but people do not listen. If the HEET, MVM or MEM takes your money and gives no card ro does not allow entry do you want to walk 3 blocks in the rain at 3am."
TA will not do anything about any of the above until something major happens. TA will get sued big bucks or/and get very bad press in the media before brass decides it was all a bad idea.
Was it a bad idea to eliminate conductors in every car? After all, wouldn't many of the dragging incidents be prevented if there was a conductor in every car?
>>>Already at Tremont on the D crime is rampant on the former secondary booth location which is now unattended and has HEETs.<<<
No it's not. Cite police statistics. Don't spread unsubstantiated rumor.
Peace,
ANDEE
I hate to say it, But Subwaybuff is right. Maybe crime is not "rampant". But it isn't exactly safe there either. Just a place one has to watch their P's and Q's. As anywhere in the subways.
>>>>I hate to say it, But Subwaybuff is right. Maybe crime is not "rampant".<<<
If crime is not rampant, then PEGGY is wrong.
>>>But it isn't exactly safe there either. Just a place one has to watch their P's and Q's. As anywhere in the subways. <<<
So it's no more dangerous than say, 42nd st?
Peace,
ANDEE
I think the bottom line is to always watch your back in even what might be considered to be the safest area of the system. Things can happen at any place, any time.
-Stef
Andee is wrong! I am not Peggy! I am subway-buff.
Batm,an and Bruce Wayen are separate peopel .
whatever.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>Batm,an and Bruce Wayen are separate peopel .<<
Oh no they're not, ask Alfred the butler.
Peace,
ANDEE
This whole issue of crimne being rampent at automated fair control in the bronx is crazy.
This is the same line where people are locked in 75 ft cars all by themselves every day with ZERO supervision.
It is safe to say people are not dying everyday on these trains they are not going to be dying in the fair control area's
I think its about time tokens fade into history, its going to be odd but we have to move on. But unlimited cards may go up sharply, $7 for a fun pass, $22 for a 7 day that's not too bad. Up to $84 for a monthly a $21 increase, now that's crazy. I just might go to one of those hearings on the fare hike when it comes up.
>>> Up to $84 for a monthly a $21 increase, now that's crazy <<<
How is this crazy? It is the same 33% increase as the raise from $1.50 to $2.00 for a single ride, and less than the increase for a fun pass which you think is ok.
Tom
OO, now I see my error. It would make sense but I was thinking a increase to no more than $80 but the way I see things are going, it will probably go that high. BUT there's NO way some straphangers would see it that way.
Bagels. That's right, bagels. Transit fares not MetroCard will be paid for in plain bagels. They are round, have a hole in the middle that you can play with and are enviromentally safe. Cream cheese is extra....I use those Philadelphia one ounce space shuttle squeezers.
What you don't eat can feed the special R142 pigeons that TA has trained to replace T/Os. Of course, certain holidays will require human T/Os as I sometimes notice that a number of 'plumpers' are missing from the transverse cabs. Suckers fit nicely into 700 watt microwave ovens. CI Peter
It's about time. They've been obsolete since 1998.
My sentiments exactly. 1998, the last time I used a booth.
Peace,
ANDEE
Waxing Poetic About The Token
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe nostalgic New Yorkers should buy up lots of tokens in the next few months and then, after they've stopped being valid on the MTA, use them as $1.50 coins in local stores and neighbourhood bars run by traditionalists!
For those people who know how to use Metrocards, I think they should buy several 30 day cards NOW and save them for this spring.
I'm SURE the amounts will be adjusted at the swipe at 00:01 day of effect. The game is rigged, folks voted for more of the same, get what you get, bend over and take your medicine. :(
I'm going to REALLY hate to see them go, but I'd warned numerous times in the past how SEVERE the realities of a rudderless administration and its screwage of the public would be ... here we go ... and we ain't even into NEXT fiscal year where you're going to have to check your pants hourly to see if what you had when you put them on is still in there somewhere. :(
Amounts? Unlimited cards don't have amounts. They have days.
And any card bought now has a printed expiration date in 2004. It's hard to see how NYCT will invalidate a card before an explicit expiration date.
It can be coded ... at THIS point though, it's all speculation as to what is to come. What REALLY lit the fire under my arse though was elimination of the token as reported by numerous NYC publications. THAT was proposed for NEXT year ... what we're seeing is the slope of the logarythmic curve and it's rather disconcerting to me who actually had the whole plan laid out to me in a corner bar over beers by a high-ranker in the Division of the Budget. If MTA is even PLAYING this game now, then things among the secret society are *FAR* worse than they've been letting on. Bruno's OWN "adjustment" to the governor's numbers only makes it worse, knowing what I know from folks I've known for over 20 years who have seen "Harey Carey's" use of the chainsaw on public employees ("tiers," anyone?) or even Padre Guido ... this is some SERIOUS poo having been a political reporter since 1968. DEEP poo ... woof. :(
"Unlimited cards don't have amounts. They have days."
Ah, but Pataki will redefine a day so that it is only 18 hours long....
(8-)
Only in the city. The six missing hours will go to Joe Bruno's territory, which will have 30-hour days.
I can vouch for that. Hey, we're getting a raise here. The 30 hour day goes to 32 hours next week. Woohoo! :)
An unlimited card is like a quart of milk. The last sale date is printed on top. Usually up to a week after you buy it. If you bought it coming home from work and leave it on the table that night, it's bad by morning.
So I should keep my MetroCards in the fridge?
LOL, I guess as long as you don't mix them with the meats......
Unless it's a Meatrocard, then it's the dairy that you can't mix it with.
For dairy, there's the MOOtrocard.
Ow ow ow ow ow ... you DO realize you guys are going to bring the fare to $3.00 with all this talk? They'll have to have SEPARATE fare controls now, and separate tracks.
Well, nobody's going to listen to me, I'm not kosher! :(:)(
Heh.
HeHe. This is so silly but it's so funny!
Hey ... if you can't have FUN, what's the point of WAKING UP? :)
One word ... "EBAY" ... stock up, shriners!
Well it may be a end of an era but it will not be forgotten. At least I got one stacked away in my house so I'll always remember the token but we're in a new era of electronics so it was going to be obsolete at some point.
Why does the MTA bother holding hearings regarding the coming fare hikes? Everyone with half a brain knows that the hearings are meaningless, except for providing sound and video bites for local news programs. Its always the same - some poor shlub in shirtsleeves or plump, middle-aged matron standing at a microphone at some packed school auditorium or Elks Club meeting room yelling at five or six extremely bored bureaucrats sitting behind a folding table, saying how the fare hikes are unfair to the working class, how lower and middle class people are barely making ends meet in this economy, that the fare hike is another tax on the people that can least afford to pay it, blah blah blah blah blah. Its always the same.
Look, we all know that NOTHING can be done about the fare hike. The public hearings are probably required by law but they are absoutely meaningless. The MTA is insulated from accountability by political realities and no poor straphangers from Crown Heights or Astoria are going to change that. Remember that lawsuit in '95 to keep the fare at $1.25? That didn't get too far.
Lets face it - fares are going up and there is nothing anyone can do.
And by the way - as a commuter paying two fares (LIRR and subway) I am taking a double hit. If the unlimited monthly Metrocard goes to $84, I am going to pay an extra $21 per month for it, which translates to an extra $252 per year than I am currently paying. That brings my bus/subway yearly bill to $1,008. And if my LIRR ticket, currently $135 per month, goes up 33%, as has been reported, I will be paying around $180 per month - an extra $540 per year. That would bring my total LIRR fare for the year to $2,160 per year.
Thus, my expected commuting cost for the 12 months following the fare hike is $3,168. Based on current income tax rates, over $5000 of my current taxable yearly income (which is not close to six figures) will go directly to my transit costs.
Like a good carnival barker outside the tent though, "hearings" do make people feel that they've vented their spleen. But in the end, it's Paturkey and his puppetmaster who tell Beameberg how to dance, and whose lap to sit in and wiggle when ... welcome to the Pleasuredome.
PSC holds hearings too. Heh. That's why I quit. We tore up the testimony once we were done, it's the same all over. People be damned, who's got campaign money for me? Certainly YOU didn't give me any. SECURITY!!! Get this ragamuffin away from my limo.
Sorry for my attitude, I should be proud to be a republican I s'pose, but I just can't get it up. Not for this. Not for ANY of this. But BRUNO (sorry again) is about to get a BRAND NEW BRUNO TRAIN STATION which is already under construction and will be FINISHED in time for racing season in Saratoga this summer. Ain't like HE's out any of his dreams. And you? Tough noogies. :(
What the hearings need is someone who can convince the MTA brass that a fare hike is not needed. Not someone who'll only rant and rave for their alloted time about paying more of their pay on carefare and sit down. But someone who can come up with some concrete ways to keep the cost down and the services up. In other words, more bang for the buck. Make that for a buck fifty.
Lets face it, the hearings are required by law to be held. The 6 bureaucrats who will have to sit there for about 2 hours at each hearing just have to put up with aimless ranting and raving and that's it. What the hearings need is someone who will come up with specific ways to keep the fare down and keep the services up. In other words more bang for the buck. Or should I put it for the buck fifty?
If someone can't do that, then the hearings are a waste of time. Too many people complain. But they can be brushed off as crack-pots or those who don't understand the financial aspects of running a large transportation system. But very few can or will suggest methods and ways to keep it running with less.
I think I know what's confusing here ... has to do with a political reality known as "cross-subsidization" ... MTA is a REVENUE agency rather than a DISBURSEMENT agency ... therefore, doesn't matter if MTA is making money or not, MTA is there to be LOOTED for "other official purposes" ... tax cuts that the state can't afford means that MTA has to take IN money and give it TO the politicians. THIS is what deficits are made of ... I take in (arbitrary number here) $50 billion a year. Costs to operate are $30 billion a year. State however demands that I make $100 billion a year since $50 billion needs to finance largesse for the swine who OWN the politicians. Instantly, a $50 billion deficit.
Like Division of the Lottery, MTA is a cash cow, and the state needs milk. One of the problems of REVENUE-agencies, or those who "recover costs" is that sometimes when the expenditures exceed cash flow, those "revenue agencies" have to pay for things completely outside their "mission statement" ... such are these times.
Government accounting is even stranger than Enron's ... word. :(
MTA is revenue-producing because of bridge tolls, right? Just checking; it makes sense, but I'm assuming the subways alone would not pay their own way on operating income and expense.
Nah, missing the point ... "Department of Motor VEHICLES" is a "REVENUE agency" ... has nothing to do with bridges ... lemme put it to you THIS way ... "Department of Environmental Consternation" is a REVENUE agency (fishing licenses), "Office of Parks and Recreation" is a REVENUE agency (park fees, exhibition and music permit charges) ... ANY agency which is "empowered" under the law to COLLECT money (like Golisano's whining about "make the Lottery pay full freight for college" and you wonder why I was calling him "contacting the mothership" during the election) ... ALL inbound revenue of state agencies is a CHARGE assigned to those agencies by the "general fund" ... no specific "this money is raised by this agency and ALL of it STAYS IN the agency" ... nope, not at all ... find the queen, find the queen, find the queen, it's all "general fund" ...
If local 1199 gets a promise in exchange for a pursuasive political endorsement at the appropriate "early-on" then by gum, if medicaid comes up short, then money is transferred within that subterranean sump-pump known as the "general fund" or ***ALL*** revenues comingled. If Senator Joe spends money he doesn't have to erect numerous ballparks, train stations, and then turn around and steal Chinatown's "September 11th fund to help businesses" and transfers it to TROY (he DID this) ... then it's all "general fund" ...
MTA's "deficit" is smoke and mirrors "general fund" stuff ... and so it goes. Bend over, do you want regular or PREMIUM? :(
If I were to go to a state web site (I could start looking myself, but it's codependence is easier and more fun), how far into the state's balance sheets could I dig? I mean, as a taxpayer, it's not like any of this stuff is available to me, right?
Hahahahaha ... thanks to Shrub (and willing enforcement by Paturkey) state financial statements are no longer available, FOIL (Freedom Of Information Law) is dead by order of Ashcroft ... that was the FIRST thing Paturkey and Bruno took care of once "Homeland Security" passed coongrefs. (misspelling intentional) ...
But Carl McCall (a dummycrap equipped *WITH* balls) and the "Office of State Comptroller" (now NYC's own Hevesi!) ARE entitled to make the available information available "at the whim of the Governor" ... latest on file (interpret URL for later use) is ...
http://www.osc.state.ny.us/finance/finreports/fcr02.pdf
Now ... bear in mind that what I linked to above is the OFFICIAL report in Adobe PDF ... however, you'll notice that Bruno and Paturkey *HAVE* screwed with the documents. Hey, republican times. ... but validate the URL's, they're QUITE real ... homeland security, are those sneakers you're wearing? :(
Very cool indeed. Thanks. Now I can be on HeyPaul's killfile list (for hating the Three Stooges) AND Ashcrofts Enemies List (for downloading the New York 2002 Budget) both at the same time!!!
Please hold for the next available operator. YOUR call is important to us, click here
Go ahead ... click it. You KNOW you wanna ... (no harm will come though it'll REALLY honk off TEACHERS who happen to be republican)
MY APOLOGIES!!!
Turns out that the post I'm responding to is a GOOGLE error of some werid sort ... lest anyone think I'm more off my rocker than they imagined, this LINK here, down below is what I'd take to be the censorship that I *thought* had existed, just so you know what my outrage in the previous posts was based on ...
www.osc.state.ny.us/finance/finreports/fcr02.pdf as I don't read PDF files ONLINE owing to security restrictions here at the worksite where I've done 26 hours and have had enough ... but if you click on THIS link, you'll see what it was that I saw before posting and linked to, not knowing that the data on the PDF file DIRECTLY linked to had NOT been screwed with ...
Sorry folks, I sleepy now ... but all the nastiness yet to come is STILL Joe Bruno's design. Paturkey is his handpuppet with NO will of his own, and "Doomberg" has ***NO*** say in how New York City is governed. NO MAYOR has since 1973 ... DESPITE Rudy ...
FOIL (Freedom Of Information Law) is dead by order of Ashcroft
It's no wonder that the people of Missouri voted for a corpse in 2000.
Missouri's gain is our loss ... makes you wonder what happened though to all those "militia groups" of daddy's administration wailing about "secret governments" and "overlords of the UFO" and "the UN" ... oh wait, they govern now.
http://www.osc.state.ny.us/finance/finreports/fcr02.pdf
Neglected to mention in the LAST post ... that link is an OFFICIAL DOCUMENT! Note what happened to it!
Happy days are here again, I guess. :(
With a fare hike, they probably would, assuming no major decrease in ridership. (I'm referring to operating costs only.) Of course, that money will be siphoned directly into commuter rail operations.
As far as I know, there are no new capital programs on tap for the LIRR. The LIRR is due to get new cars to replace the older M-1's and that's about it. AFAIK the LIRR is just doing standard maintenance on its lines - signal upgrads, tie replacement, et al.
As far as I know, there are no new capital programs on tap for the LIRR. The LIRR is due to get new cars to replace the older M-1's and that's about it.
Don't forget at least one major Capital Program for the LIRR that I know of - the East Side Access to Grand Central Terminal through the 63rd Street tunnel.
I consider that project to be the same as the 2nd Avenue Subway project: much-talked about, much studied, but no shovels in the dirt and never officially killed. If/when I see some actual progress on that project, I will add it to my list.
I believe work has begun.
In any case, it's ahead in line of any major subway project, even though the demand for subway projects is greater and the subway comes closer to paying its bills (so to speak).
David is right. Work has begun. At least preliminary work is currently being done.
And of course the tunnel is already done (although it has been for at least 25 years).
I think David Greenberger meant cross-subsidy from the subway to suburban rail for routine operating expenses, not capital expenditure.
Exactly.
If the subway runs a profit on operations, that money should go back into the city's transit system -- towards lower fares, to improved service, or into savings to cover future deficits. I'm sure it'll go into commuter rail instead.
MTA is revenue-producing because of bridge tolls, right? Just checking; it makes sense, but I'm assuming the subways alone would not pay their own way on operating income and expense.
The bridges and tunnels are indeed a big fat cash cow, although I don't know whether they produce enough revenues to cover the MTA's deficits from its other operations.
Given enough cost-cutting, the subways probably could reach a break-even point if only operating costs are considered. They'd still need subsidies to cover capital expenses.
General fund ... Sister Cleo add up your guest check now, OK? Money gets received over HERE ... pop up over there. Whoops. I don't CARE if you tell me you just gave me a $20 ... see here? That's a FIVE ... ***LOOK!!!*** See? A FIVE!
Find the queen, find the queen, find the queen ... Joe Bruno gets a new ballpark. (sock full of pennies connects to upside of head) ...
In Robt. Moses' era, I think they originally conceived the tolls would be taken off when the bridges were paid for. It makes more sense that the capital costs of transit be covered by the people who shouldn't be crowding in with their cars. Rail is the only otherwise unsubsidized form of transportation we have.
That was before RM.
RM had a clause written into the charter of the TBA (later TBTA) that would allow the bonds to be reissued, so the tolls could remain permanent to pay off the bonds.
Before the MTA, the surplus was used to pay for new bridges and new approach highways.
Unless you advocate that the MTA print money, there is nothing that can be done to save the $1.50 fare.
The fare has actually gone down in the last 6 years. It makes no sense to let it continue to go down (since the price of everything else goes up).
Maybe you should go to the hearing and advocate that we should bring back the traditional nickel fare?
It also depends on which LIRR fare zone you currently reside in, the MTA is proposing to redraw zones 1-14, and they may not work in your favor. For example, if you live in Syosset, you would be in Zone 7, but if the MTA has it's way, you may end up paying for Zone 9, PLUS the 33.3% fare hike.
[Why does the MTA bother holding hearings regarding the coming fare hikes?]
Because there's a law that requires hearings (but not necessarily "listenings").
Amen, brother.
Public hearings to have some accomplishments.
Does the term NIMBY ring any bells, lite any lights?
Here is a way for a few sheckills to be gathered.
Save a few redbirds, enough for severl full sets.
Add these sets for the homeless at night, to ply those warm underground only routes. Let 'em stretch out on the benches and get nice and comfortable.
Put this idea to a public hearing and see the turn out and the results.
avid
Well with the talks of the MTA taking over the Queens Private Lines heating up if the MTA did get control of the 3 companies and thus the bus depots they come from how which bus lines would go to the the various bus depots throughout Queens. You have the large College Point Queens Surface Depot, I wonder what lines would come out of that one for instance? Anyone got any ideas or thoughts?
You should post this in Bustalk.
Take this to BusTalk and I'll try to answer it.
Me three, i.e. there has been a ongoing discussion at BusTalk about this.
BTW, the parking lot at Queens Surface can't hold much more then 337 buses, so what ever the routes might be, that would be about the fleet size to support them.
As I indicated in post 434057, a WHOLE lot of pain is about to be headed to every good New York voter as a reward for the current administrations here and in DC. Please read the previous message linked to above as I'm just going to provide a few links here that point towards realities, if taken in with all I've said from before the election until now. My reason for constantly bringing up Joe Bruno these last few months was a prophesy based on discussions with the people charged with making this all too very real. Folks who are FRIENDS of mine who confided in me the bitter realities that are falling around our feet like a house of cards. Rest assured I take no pleasure in knowing what I knew, what I've been told and what is yet to come. As the old saying goes, "ain't seen NOTHING yet"... :(
When TWU accepted the "no layoff clause" removal in the coming contract, I *warned* that the TWU contract (as "early adopters") would be the template for the REST of the STATE workforce. And MTA is a STATE agency, not a city one, and while folks were squabbling about "Doomberg" I tried to warn people that the REAL power in the state is Joe Bruno, and his handpuppet Paturkey ... well, here we go.
Now that word of elimination of the token (and with it, "station agents") has come out, here's a little more to extend what I've been warning of all along until we get the FINAL word (and actual BUDGET NUMBERS) on January 29th with the "Governor's budget message" and "budget school" for the press whereupon they'll tally it up on the 30th and 31st as they read through the voluminous sideshow known as the "State Budget, FY 2003/2004" ...
BRUNO GLUM ON BUDGET GAP
UNIONS WATCH, WAIT AND SPECULATE
MANY SEEK COLD HARD NUMBERS
What's PARTICULARLY interesting about the third item is that "Rent stabilization," due to expire in June was not a PRESSING issue to Silver as it's been each other five year increment in the past. Clearly anyone reading between the lines can determine that Silver holds out no hope of passage and renewal of this item. And Silver, even if he COULD preserve "rent control" (or what little is left of it) has clearly ceded that it ain't gonna happen.
What's even more amazing (link lost owing to age) is that Bruno has even considered SELLING public housing in the city to real estate types and moving the poor out of what little is left of section eight housing all across the state.
Mark your calendars for January 29th, "Budget Message" ... everything will be reduced to columns, line items, abolished titles then. And yes, MASSIVE "privitization" is planned ... I mentioned in another message that Division of Car Equipment, cleaning and other titles with civil service protections are also things being *LOOKED AT* for privitization and abolition of civil service titles to create "cost savings" ... and so goes across MANY civil service titles this coming year. Tax cuts WILL continue, more money for the rick WILL continue, and the little guy WILL get screwed ...
Sorry folks, but this ain't news for those who have been paying attention. It's going to be a HELL of a revelation for those who doubted though. And yes, subway lines WILL be closed according to the SAME study that demanded abolition of the token. Byebye Sea Beach, byebye West End, Byebye Dyre as "full service lines" if the remainder of what I told (some already in motion) turns out to be the final decision.
It ain't set in stone YET though ... time to HOWL ...
Thanks a lot about the Sea Beach closing, we are going to have a massive earthquake 3,000 miles away, and the instigator is an ex-New Yorker who loves this line.
Since President Reagan took office in 1980, the economy depending on one person's POV have been crappy or booming. Greed and pandering have been two of the main focal points on how the rich get soaked with tak breaks and the little guys get nothing. Now with over 180 booth closings, many of which are no "crossover" points, like the local stops on the Broadway line in Manhattan, union jobs are slowly being gutted for the more expensive contracting out process, or the risk of public safety. Trouble is that Unions are the backbone of what developed NYC into the country's largest metropolis today. Without union participation, there would be no bridges, no office buildings, no one to run the buses and subways, no city, state and Federal workers, no 8 hour days/40 wour weeks, no prevailing wages for skilled trades, no medical insurance for the working class. The list goes on and on.
So all those who favor the Republican Contract of America (it's still alive, even in the "Grinch" era), it's a contract "hit" that will kill the poor and working class.
I've always referred to it as "Contract *ON* America" ... or in more recent times, "SCREW the terrorists, WE'VE GOT REPUBLICANS!" ... but yeah, story remains the same. As for talk about killing the Sea Beach, forgot to mention a couple of OTHER "shuttles" ... 179th/Jamaica, Upper Myrtle, and Chamber/South Ferry ... those were ALSO part of the study group's "recommendations on service adjustments" ... dunno whether they ever got OUT of Division of the Budget to the MTA, but there were similar "study group" exercises for the commuter railroads as well ... ONE TRAIN servicing "line portions" for certain distances on a single track (means that a track or more doesn't need to be maintained) and change for ANOTHER train for another short distance ...
Now having been through several "expansion and contaction" cycles in state government, MANY of these ideas will never have been passed ON to the MTA and died in "study group" (I'm too well to do those anymore) but I damned near SHEET myself when I read this morning that the token's about to die. As I've said elsewhere, that was in the study group proposals I got told about for *NEXT* year ... and to hear it at ALL tells me that the study group I heard about just over a month ago got RELEASED!
Here's where I'll *really* get a dose of the willies (and a landmark those who have doubted before can bite into) ... *IF* an announcement is made in the next 90 days of a new agreement with Alstom and Bombardier to build a maintenance facility in Queens or Brooklyn is announced as a "new jobs opportunity" (Alstom, Bombardier and Kawasaki have ONE thing in common, believe it or not - their "benefactor" in ALL of their deals is none other than Alfonse D'Amato and Ralph(?) Caso) then you can kiss car maintainer jobs goodbye too ... that was in that SAME proposal that would eliminate the token ... no more TA "car inspectors" ...
Other reductions gleaned include the loss of funding to the city for about half of its existing police force (DEEPER cuts in police if they are called up in the National Reserves since the state does NOT consider those "positions" as "open" and thus the state must do "new hires" to replace them as "provisionals" [National Guard call-ups are WHAT the term "provisional" once meant) and you've got one HELL of a mess if everything is as advertised ... no cops, no car inspectors, no cleaners, why it's the 1970's all over again. THANK YOU SHRUB! By gum ... that tax free stock dividend check makes it ALL better! :(
The rich want the poor to have some money - they need consumers to buy their products. ;-)
I admit I think unions are losing ground because they've lost touch with their true goals and are mired in the past.
But that said, I don't think privatization has a very good track record in public rail transit. It seems to work pretty well with bussing, but not so well with rail. Look at Mexico, Brazil and England for examples of how not to privatize parts of public rail transit.
But some privatization can be workable, as long as it's tightly watchdogged. Chicago has some limited privatization although it's not at all widely publicized. Certain things get bid out, but the specs are very tight, and it's done in small enough bites that if something goes wrong the system as a whole doesn't get hurt - and in that way it does save the CTA some money.
Nobody's going to close down subway lines.
But the frequency of service could be affected, and the steepest fare hike to $2 could happen unless you folks march into the hearings and get involved. Write letters to Patakey, Bruno, Silver and your local elected officials.
Nope, no lines would be closed DOWN according to the "study groups" but what they WERE looking to do was have one train run from the "branch lines" to the "Main lines" (their words) and NOT have it continue on into Manhattan. In other words, several lines would be turned into Franklin shuttle type arrangements ...
Will it happen like this? Probably not. But it WAS proposed ...
My East 63rd Street apartment with walls cracked with the construction
of the 63rd Street subway is $ 820 a month under rent control. Building stinks with big bugs and mice.....just waiting for a buy-out.
I'll take 7-3 RDO SS and move to the estate in New Jersey. CI Peter
Once upon a time, the Brighton Line ran three services: the D the M, and the QB (now the Q). The D ran as the Brighton Express and the M and QB ran as the Brighton Local. The D ran express weekdays until about 9pm and ran local all other times. The M ran local weekdays from 6am to 9pm and operated as a shuttle from Middle Village, Queens to Myrtle Ave./Broadway, Brooklyn all other times. The QB ran local rush hours only in the peak direction (to Manhattan AM, from Manhattan PM).
When work began on the structures that span the streets under the Brighton Line, a major shakeup began. Brighton Express service was halted, the M was rerouted to serve the West End Line, the Q became a full time service and was paired with the D for what became the first set of lines to provide "skip-stop" service.
When contruction on the steel structures was completed, Brighton Express service was restored, but the Q became the express and the D became the local. The M was not brought back to the Line. This is still the case today, many years later.
My question is, was the better service pattern for Brighton then or now?
Correction: The QB (later Q, pre April 1986) on ran from 7:15 AM to 8:15 am to Manhattan and from 4:50 TO 5:45pm to CI in the evening, thats is.
Becuase of the track constrains on the Brighton line, there is no layup area that would say the M train to turn around without interfering with current service, unlike turnaround points at 9th Ave and Bay Parkway which use the 3rd track as a layup track.
I'd say this service plan in 2004 when both side of the Manny-B open up:
D runs local to CI
Q runs express weekdays to BB
M runs local to BB rush hours only OR a special X line (shades of NX), runs local from Kings Highway (OPPOSITE DIRECTION), to Coney Island, then Express via Sea Beach nonstop to 59th Street, express via. Bridge and Broadway line. Only a handful of trains could operate, there will be six lines on 4th ave (B, M, N, R, W and my proposed X)
Someone out in the West Coast will be foaming at this plan.
Let him Foam, it will be good for him
I liked the QB service (for selfish reasons of course): they would run the Museum set of R1/9's during the morning and evening rushs.
Seemed to me that prior to the switch, the D/M/QB service was a well-oiled machine (IIRC). Not a heck of alot of delays...but then I was a teen and not into noticing headways/delays, etc.
:)
The only bottleneck in the Brighton operation was DeKalb, but as someone showed recently in a picture, we'd just tighten up the railroad as best as we could keying by into a nice little conga line to wait for our slot at DeKalb. The B would blow past there, not stopping, so once we got into DeKalb with the D's, it was smooth sailing after there. Every now and then something would lay down somewhere, we'd get backed up to Prospect northbound, but that was the exception rather than the rule ...
I remember the last days of the old service. R16 M trains leaving Dekalb Ave empty as overcrowded D/QB trains left for the bridge. The M train was useless, a mere feeder for the overburdened D line. If all Brighton local service was routed via Broadway, tunnel or bridge, then the Brighton line wouldn't have been such a mess.
As we Sea Beach fans are asking ourselves in response to your post, WHO CARES? Kidding! Actually a good post, but since I live so far away I cannot comment about service then and service now. Hope you don't take it personally but I just couldn't pass up the change to throw a barb at a Brighton man. It is theraputic to the soul. Still I have to admit the Brighton was always my second favorite line.
Go ahead, Fred. Thow as many barbs as you want, let's play dodge ball.
Still I have to admit the Brighton was always my second favorite line.
What????
Has hell frozen over??????
Fred is comlimenting the Brighton Line?????
He's said as much in the past...really!
Peace,
ANDEE
"He's said as much in the past...really!"
No.....I think it may be sun spots or El Nino !
Bill "Newkirk"
Fred liked it because it took him to Ebbets Foeld. I doubt he ever went South ofProspect Park or rode the Triplex on the Brighton as a Express to and From Brighton Beach.
Fred got his jollies out of the Triplexes thundering along 4th Ave. just as I got my kicks out of the R-10s ripping along CPW.
You got it right Steve. I loved barreling down 4th Avenue in a real Express, and I loved blasting through those mini-tunnels on the open cut of the Sea Beach. As far a Bob's worthless mutterings, please tell him that I did ride the Brighton further the PP Station. We had friends who lived in Brighton Beach, and my aunt lived off of Newkirk Avenue in 1946 and 1947. Once more he is putting his foot in his mouth, and you must now wonder why I still love that guy like a brother. Sometimes I wonder that, too.
Riding along 4th Ave, is great, but did you ever ride the Triplex, Railfan window down, going toward the city on the stretch between Kings Hwy and Prospect Park, with the storm door window Open on a Hot Summer Day.
BTW did you read the news that Hillary is the most admired women in the USA, and Bush s ratings are going down?
And who would be more Pro israel then Joe Lieberman?
Now that you mention it I think I did one afternoon in 1953 when we were coming home from Coney Island and decided to take in a Dodger game at Ebbets Field. I think it was around four in the afternoon when we got the train at Stillwell. It WAS a stifling hot day as I remember. Funny I couldn't remember it until now. In fact, since I am a Brooklyn Dodger expert I can tell you the date was August 18, 1953. We got a hot dog and soda in a shop outside of Ebbets Field and got into the park to watch batting practice. BTW, the Dodgers beat the Giants that night 4-3. I think the game went ten innings.
Lieberman is a pretty good guy. I have no beef with him except he crapped out when he had the chance to tear into Clinton because of the Lewinsky scandal and then took the easy way out with a warm-dishwatery utterance about bad judgment. Yes, he is pro-Israel but my worry would be trying to act fair he would bend over backwards to give the Palestinian hoodlums the store. The Republicans would never ever do that. Bush will recover and win re-election in 2004.
Lewinsky should never had been brought up. Slick Willy was so popular your RIGHT WING WASP Hypocritcs had nothing else they could attack him with, so they did that, and LOST.
Now next year if the RICH BITCH BUSH TWINS get into trouble with booze, maybe turnabout is fair play.
Be nice, or I may come out soon to knock on your door.
You are very welcome. We are getting a new bed for Christine's former room (she moved in with a friend) and you can test it out. You will not be staying at any hotel so save your money. We will be starting our remodeling next spring, so the shower is kind of run down. Works well but the paint is starting to peel. That is the first thing that is going to change. The kitchen and the laundry room are also on the agenda.
Let me guess - you made a beeline up the stairs at Prospect Park, right? And did you take a Triplex Brighton express from Brighton Beach?:)
Unless it would have been a Sunday, then it would have been the Brighton-Franklin Express, therefore probably a train of Standards. :-)
>>"Still I have to admit the Brighton was always my second favorite line."<<
HA! Fred, you DO have some love for the Brighton line! This is what my Brighton line does to you guys heeheehee :0). You hear that Kool-D and other Brighton line brethren, Fred admitted that the Brighton is his 2nd favorite line behind his Sea Beach.
I know Fred has his preferences, I lived at Parkside Ave when I was growng up before the 1994 renovation. At least anytime I hopped the M local, the next station won't look the same as Parkside Ave. Then again the Sea-Beach stations all looked like Parkside Ave to begin with.
Interesting....Kool-D. I also called Parkside 'homebase' till 1984 when I moved to the Brooklyn College/Junction area....I was using Parkside since my family moved to Flatbush in 1970...I remember R-27's on the 'M' and the 'QB' museum train.
Also, got I to ride the SOAC two-car test train from Parkside Ave. to 57th St. That was the ultimate in COOL for a Brighton Line kid...
1983 and 84 was a BIG year for the "M" line for me... But those R27's were slower than the Box 40's that the "D" was using... I remember how the "M" and "D" use to leave the station at the same time... and the "D" always seem to pass us while we were moving...
But the funny thing was... when the M made it over to the Broadway EL.. IT WAS THE TRAIN.. since at the time.. the J was using the R16's... And often times... the M would beat the J while they was trying to make express over us.. hahahaaa...
By the time we got to myrtle avenue... we heard an announcement.. NO J TRAIN SERVICE!!!
Hahahaaa.
Those were the GOOOOOD OLE DAYS!
N Bwy
Before Parkside, Beverley & Cortelyou were rehabbed, they looked like pure crap and its a real improvement however they could of tiled more of the stations than they should have. The stationhouses are just beautiful, kudos to the MTA for tat project [I believe it was in house]. The Sea Beach stations are in disrepair & it needs a rehab project.
They sure do. OK, maybe the Sea Beach doesn't have the ridership of the nearby elevated West End and doesn't need express service. But at least do something about those decrepit stations. Make it have attractive stations like Parkside, Beverley and Cortelyou on the Brighton. Then maybe some more people might be inclined to ride it.
Perhaps I'm alone, but I think the Brighton local rehabs didn't come out too well (at platform level, at least). The Sea Beach stations could certainly use a bit of maintenance but I wouldn't want to go much further than that -- I like their basic look.
yes that is definetaly true the platforms are not good at all. at cortelyou road, the station is a model for the rest of the system, but the platform is not good at the ends and the middle isnt too hot either
yes that is definetaly true the platforms are not good at all. at cortelyou road, the station is a model for the rest of the system, but the platform is not good at the ends and the middle isnt too hot either
I agree about the basic look of the stations. I love the arches at many of the overpasses. That style reminds me of the old style of ferry terminal, the finger pier style. Definitely "of an age". And still extant, amazing.
Southern Brooklyn must have been a very exciting place to live in during the era of the old steam railroad lines electrifying and elevating and submerging. (Not that it still ain't exciting!) Think of the optimism for better times their construction indicated! The human energy expounded there and then still echos today. I doubt such a concentration of fairly parallel rail lines is duplicated anywhere on the planet. I get nutty on this subject, yeah, but it never ceases to amaze me. And that's not even mentioning the streetcar lines!
Sorry for waxing nuttily here. Brooklyn is close to my heart, no doubt.
Close to your heart? Yes, I know that feeling very well. Why do you think that I am always on the Sea Beach soapbox. Because I love that line so much that I call it MY train, and some of my buddies on Subtalk concede to me on that score. How's that for an obsession?
Yep. I understand the feelings. I like the way you can walk across the "Plains of Brooklyn" and cross subway lines, not one, not two but three different styles of elevated electric railway lines, plus an elevated "standard railroad" ROW, which gradually submerges below ground level in a sunken corridor shared by yet another style of transit rail, a trench line.
And that's just southern Brooklyn! We IS blessed.
I took that walk in 1991. I wish Brooklyn makes the complete recovery I saw in Carroll Gardens and Prospect Park West. The yuppies are helping restore the borough to the respectability it deserves. Though I lived most of my New York years in Queens, my family, relatives and blood lines were all Brooklyn. And because of the Dodgers, Coney Island and the Sea Beach I considered myself a Brooklynite.
How can you been a Brooklynite and a Californiam at the same time. At last look there waqs no town, Post Office etc in Calif named Brooklyn.
Hey that is a good name for the San Fernando Valley to get, when it leaves the city of LA. Brooklyn Calif 91401
OK Bob, you win the splitting hairs contest hands down. I meant when I lived in New York. Queens had no identity back then that gave it a unique status as some of the other boroughs, plus I spent a great deal of my time in Brooklyn. Get it?
A frequent rider on the Brighton line, I'll tell you firsthand the platforms are not good, they are cracks & shifts all over the platforms, particularlt the ends. Also, peeling paint is persistent; Prospexct Park's rehab was OK but there's so much leaky areas.
Leaking canopies at PP? You got to be kidding, when there is a torrential downpour or a nor'easter, Proppect Park turns into Niagara Falls with 3 waterfalls cascading on the Manhattan bound platform, near the Shuttle. One of these waterfalls on the platform blocks the main staircase to Empire Blvd.
Yes, I know what you're talking about, I have seen the 'waterfalls' when it rains heavy at PP over time and it downpours on BOTH sides. Atlantic Av has serious flooding problems on the tracks just like the Lenox Av line did and that should be looked at.
And thank goodness Newkirk Av is getting a renovation, with all the mounds of pigeon shit, the buckling platform and the countless leaks it sure needed one, I'm just surprised it took so long for such a busy station.
Fix it and they will come
They will fix it, and more people will come to the ONLY subway station in NYC that is surrounded by a shopping mall.
I was wondering whether Newkirk Plaza still existed....I guess it does.
They're rehabbing Newkirk Av station along with Newkirk Plaza.
You can thank the pigeon lady for that, she comes around and throws bread crumbs in an area on the Plaza, behind the control house. One of many colorful characters on and around the world's most famous subway line. Actually, Newkirk Ave the station did get a makeover in 1985, but those damm pigeons would hide underneath the beams over the platforms. Then just two years ago, these beams started collapsing or dangaling so they had to be removed anyway.
I don't think Fred's line has as many not-ready-for-prime-time characters as our line.
My line is nothing to write home about, that I can assure you. Peeling paint, leaking roofs, and garbage all around, it looks like a slum. And the TA hasn't done a damn thing about it for years. As for Prospect Park Station, hold on to your seats. As a kid it was my favorite station of any in the New York Subway even though it wasn't on the Sea Beach line. It was where I got off the train to enjoy a wonderful afternoon or evening watching my beloved Brooklyn Dodgers when I was an innocent lad. There has never been a team since that one that captured my undying love and loyalty. Not even the Sea Beach and Coney Island could match it.
Yup, we got a whole bunch of those characters on the Brighton. I never saw the pigeon lady in person but I constantly see pieces of bread there. Not to mention the mice but its relatively clean at Newkirk but when it rains forget about it, all the water on the mezzanine and mini puddles on the platform and if they never put the metal pieces on the stairs, people would still be slipping & sliding. I can't wait to see what Newkirk Av & Newkirk Plaza looks like once its completely renovated.
Church Av could use a makeover like new lighting, better platforms and fix the leaks. Our line is really up & coming you have Atlantic Av & Dekalb Av are in current renovations.
I hate people like the lady you described. Don't they have anything better to do? They are creating such a problem with those pigeons being attracted and everything. Their droppings do corrode and eventually the damage comes out of our pockets through fares or taxes. I'm glad Giuliani told everybody not to feed 'em when he was still held the position of 'Hizzoner.' But we still need action here. I am reminded of the pigeon horror as I wait for a Flushing-bound 7 at Broadway-74th. There are so many there, it's insane.
I thought up of an idea over at the Rider Diaries of having a firing squad for those squabs... That'll show 'em!
Yes, I've been around 74 St recently and there is a whole lot of pigeon shit and its just disgusting & nasty. At Newkirk Av on the Q though its just bad, possibly worse -> dead pigeons on the tracks are common, clumps of crap on the ceilings, its risky just STANDING on the platform & they practically destroyed the rehab of the mid 80's. Stupid pigeon ladies damnit they are the cause of all this, as Kool-D mentioned they throw bread behind the stationhouse. Then they fly in the open cut of the station and make it their home.
I'm glad Giuliani told everybody not to feed 'em when he was still held the position of 'Hizzoner.'
Rudolph W. Giuliani has never held a position titled "Hizzoner." I do remember him serving as Mayor of the City of New York, but I don't remember him hizzing on any women.
I was too young to remember the previous use of the M so I didn't really experience that. The Brighton line is doing fine right now but extra local service should be considered. The M is so out of place on the West End, doesn't get crowded most of the time and most people crowd onto the B [W] simply b/c its the 4 Av express so I would favor the previous plan of the M via Brighton. Only problem it is going to be a challenge to turn M's now since the Q recieved expanded service in 1988.
Did the M have more ridership via 4 Av & West End when it was the 4 Av express until 1994?
I honestly think the pre-1967 pattern with Brighton Express via bridge, Local via tunnel with Banker's Specials was better than any of the post-Chrystie plans.
To answer your question, though, I think the current pattern is better than the D/M/qb pattern was, except that there is no direct downtown service, so in the future I would like to see D local in the Brooklyn via 6th Ave., Q express in Brooklyn via Broadway, and a return to Banker's rush hours only,
I would not put M back on Brighton. The TA actually realized its mistake in eliminating West End Local service and restored it with the M via West End.
I would like to see a restoration of Broadway Brooklyn Local (K) to Canarsie with R143 or equivalent going up 6th Avenue. This would allow full M and J expresses (as in the past) and give the Eastern Division a needed boost.
That might not happen until an extra surplus of equipment hits the subway like the R160. True that Coney Island has a surplus of equipment now with all of the slants, and R40M's with 3 full sets still in ENY, but with R42's, and the 212 R143's in ENY, there is no surplus there yet to provide a run like the KK in the 60's thru the 70's.
Plus financial woes would precludeany radical service upgrade. I'd think they'd extend the V to Church Ave before anything else.
15 Fs and 9 Vs = 24 tph to the Culver? Seems like a waste. Could be done as part of a package deal, though. The first that comes to mind is having the Q originate from 179th as 9 tph (replacing the 3 Es and 6 of the Fs), leaving 9 Fs + 9Vs = 18 tph on the Culver.
Actually, the K needn't run out to Canarsie. Why not have it terminate at Broadway Junction, like during the post-Chrystie era? But this time run it all day. That would allow full express service from Jamaica, making the line more competitive with the E, and even rush-hour express from Metropolitan.
I think the best Brighton service pattern was the D/Q layout, before the switch to the 2 Q's. This was because the two trains used to both go out to midtown and because of the fact that there was regular express service on the Brighton. Having three trains The D, M, Q sevice pattern had the right amount of trains, but having the M run during weekdays wasn't the right way to go about it. As for the old Brighton skip-stop, it was too slow and both trains (D/Q) were packed.
Well it is basically the same service pattern except that both services are called Q under the current plan and they run via Broadway and not 6th Avenue. If they used another letter for the Brighton local, maybe T or U, I think the Brighton service plan in use now would be better than the D/Q pattern of 1989 to July 2001. Maybe it's because I like the Broadway line better than the 6th Avenue line (Broadway has better IRT transfers and serves more leisure-areas like Times, Herald and Union Squares and the heart of Chinatown and Soho). When we have access to both sides of the bridge from Brighton, that will be the best service plan.
Heck, I kind of like it that Brighton and West End trains are running via Broadway and not 6th Avenue. While the NYC DOT needs to get both sides of the bridge open, IMHO, I prefer the current pattern over the 1989-July 2001 service. I knew it was necessary but I just didn't like idea of the Q running via 6th Avenue and Broadway having only the N and the R. I had friends who thought it was always that way and I know people who still call the Broadway line the "N/R line" (yes, I've corrected them) even though there are two other trains running there and those two trains are the only ones in running on Broadway during late night hours. I like that the Broadway BMT is no longer a shadow of itself. It was from 1989 to July 2001, even during the three months in 1990 when the N ran express and during 1995 when the Q ran through the tunnel.
Sorry for the long post, but my hope is that when the north side of the bridge reopens next year or whenever it's ready, that the Broadway line doesn't go back to being a shadow of itself. From all the specualtion going on here, it sounds like that's what going to happen, at least during nights and weekends. I hope that doesn't happen.
Nope, the Q will be the Broadway-Brighton Express like it was before 1986 when it was the QB, but full-time, and the D should be the same as before. PS, R68's will reign supreme like it did before October, 1997.
If they used another letter for the Brighton local, maybe T
Make it the W and send the T back to West End where it belongs ;-)
I hope they bring the R68/R68A's back to the Q when the D comes back to Brooklyn come 2004, they were the best. Ahh, I loved it in 1995 when the Q ran via Broadway, riding a R68A and it is flying by the Broadway stations but the only thing that sucked was that it had to run via tunnel b/c the South side was in bad shape. The B'way line is booming so I expect at least 2 services to run on the line all times & I think it won't go into decline & be a shadow of itself like before.
When both sides of the bridge are open, 4th Ave and Brighton line riders will probably get one 6th Ave and one Broadway route. Also, because of the increased capacity, more frequent trains can be run. The Brighton line needs more than the current 18 TPH of combined Q service during rush hours. N service is dismal. It hardly runs more than 6-7 TPH. With the entire bridge open, it would allow 10-12 TPH on every line going through Dekalb without creating a devestating bottleneck.
every 10 Minutes on the N is not that bad, considering there are not that many people riding it as on the other Southern Div Lines
It is a reasonable assumption that there will be four trains on the bridge, as you stated. But there would still need to be two tunnel trains during the rush. It is also a reasonable assumption that both tunnel trains will serve the 4th Av. lines and not the Brighton Line. Now, I remember the collected fare statistics that David presented some time ago, to the effect that for approximately every 17 4th Av. riders there are 13 Brighton riders. So, if all four 4th Av. lines get the same number of tph as each of the two Brighton lines, you'll have an imbalance of service. I expect that you're right, the D and Q will get each 12 tph for a total of 24. This should give an expectation of a total of 32 tph for the 4th Av. services, of which 9 or 10 will probably be R trains. Say the M gets 5, that works out to B and N each getting 9 tph (total 14 tph West End). Of course, extra Broadway Local service in Manhattan would be provided by a W running from Astoria to Whitehall or Canal.
I'd do it differently. You'd have to balance service somewhat, which would lead to excess service on 4th Ave:
12 D
12 Q
10 B
10 N
12 R
6-8 M
If the unbalanced B/D and N/Q headways cause problems, then you'd have to run the B and N at 12 TPH. One way to solve this problem is to run all bridge trains at 10 TPH, but move the M to the Brighton express during rush hours at 9-10 minute headways. The banker's specials return! But if the TA is unwilling to run a Brighton/tunnel route, then what are you gonna do?
Your idea is a winner! Brighton patrons should have bridge express access to both the 6th Av and the Broadway lines. It is a pity that Hylan prevented the BMT from extending north of 57th st to the upper west side. If that had happened, there definitely would have always been express service on the Broadway line, as well as jammed trains and platforms in both directions during rush hour.
I love the Broadway line and also have had a tough time explaining the old service patterns to people who were familiar with the N and R local service only.
And that service, the N and R local-only service, should under NO circumstance come back (unless, God forbid, something should go wrong with the Bridge again).
Oh man was that HORRIBLE! If I was able to avoid the line and find a alternative, I did so by all means necessary but nw I love the line now that Broadway express service again. In 1995 when the Q ran via Broadway express with the R68's, I just loved it & gave the line a big boost. At least its back once again but now its 24 hours and goes via South side :-D.
The old D/Q skip stop service was a tad slower, but much better overall. Each train split up the Brighton line's users equally, and there was no bottleneck at Prospect Park.
Yes. The pre 1986 configuration was a mistake from day #1.
What has Bloomberg done with his (Omygodatransitstrike) bike?
What has Bloomberg done with his (Omygodatransitstrike) bike?
He donated it to a disabled boy in Brooklyn.
Not knowing how the boy is disabled, How is the boy going to ride a bicycle?
Not all disabilities are ambulatory.
IIRC, this kids disability is asthma.
Peace,
ANDEE
No, he got diabetes. BTW, this kid do not live to far from me.....
Right, I wasn't to sure about the asthma, Thanks Mike.
Peace,
ANDEE
He donated the bike to a kid in Canarsie on Christmas Day, I forgot what the teenager was diagnosed with, but it was prearranged with his mother and the news media.
Financial news reports say that K-Mart is about to announce the closing of more than 300 stores. The chain's been mired in Chapter 11, having found it next to impossible to compete with Wally World and Targhetto. I'm wondering whether the Penn Station store's going to be on the chopping block. Sure, it's nice and convenient for LIRR commuters, but when I was last in there, a few weeks ago, I found it cramped, disorganized, and dirty, the complete antithesis of a pleasant shopping experience.
The last time this subject was discussed here someone reported that the Penn Station store is actually one of the most profitable in the chain, so unless something's changed dramatically since that report I would expect it to stay.
... I found it cramped, disorganized, and dirty, the complete antithesis of a pleasant shopping experience.
But Peter... that IS the Kmart shopping experience!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"that IS the Kmart shopping experience!"
Which means that if Target took over that space in Penn Station, they would have to hire "bouncers" to make sure that only the "proper" clientele entered the store. I guess that would mean only commuters from Plandome and Princeton Junction!
According to an article in the Wall Street Journal before Thanksgiving, Target is looking to open in Manhattan but can't find a site that would have 50,000 SF of selling space and parking....Most of the NYP K-mart shoppers just buy what can be carried in shopping bags and then take mass transit home. The high profit, big ticket items that are put into the trunk of a car can't be sold from a location like Penn.
The article also mentioned the sailboat that Target tied up at a pier with only 92 items in it. Wonder how that did ?
According to an article in the Wall Street Journal before Thanksgiving, Target is looking to open in Manhattan but can't find a site that would have 50,000 SF of selling space and parking....Most of the NYP K-mart shoppers just buy what can be carried in shopping bags and then take mass transit home. The high profit, big ticket items that are put into the trunk of a car can't be sold from a location like Penn.
It might not be a bad idea for Target to consider a "limited" store for Manhattan, one that carries mostly smaller, transit-transportable merchandise. Doing so may require fewer adjustments to the normal store model than one might anticipate. For instance, at least half the floor space in any Target I've seen is devoted to selling clothing, which is generally easy to transport. There also are sizeable sections with CD's, videos, health and beauty aids, and small electronics like telephones and calculators - all things that you can carry pretty easily on the train or bus. Toys seem to be another big seller; while some toys can be bulky, Manhattan's Toys R Us stores do just fine.
What I don't know is whether Target's business model/corporate culture would allow for a significant deviation from the standard store model. The company may have a one-size-fits-all policy. If not, however, the idea of a transit-friendly urban store layout could be a good idea in New York and elsewhere.
From what I read only the Astor Place store is making any money.
I would not be suprised if the Penn Station store was closed.
Want to see a real Kmart disaster? Come to the store in Bay Plaza near Co-Op City in the Bronx. Empty shelves, merchandise on the floor instead of on shelves, overstuffed clothing racks so that if you brush up against them the stuff falls on the floor, never enough cashiers (I waited 1/2 one Saturday to purchase 5 items). Although as a Co-Op City resident I do find the store convenient at times, I would not lose any sleep if they were to close it.
What is wrong with Target(or as you say Targhetto)? I find those stores better organized, have a good selection of items, are cleaner and the prices are certainly competative.
Is the K Mart the only "bad" store in that area? The last time I was in the JC Penney up there, it seemed pretty impressive for a Bronx store. As well as the Barnes and Noble, and the Applebee's restaurant. A far cry from the old Caldor on Fordham Road where I would hear the security-tag alarms ring every couple of seconds as I sat in Nathan's eating a hot dog.
Marshall's is also "bad". That store is just as much a mess as the Kmart store.
JC Penney is good but aside from big sale days the store never is as busy as let's say the JC Penney in the Queens Center. Perhaps if the constantly proposed enclosed mall gets built then that store will get busier. Applebee's is always busy from about 1 PM on. I usually go between 12:30 and 1:00 so I can always get a seat.
if the constantly proposed enclosed mall gets built
"Constantly proposed?" Where have we heard that term before? Why do the words "Second Avenue" stick in my mind?
But marshalls has very good deals.
You can get top quality items for less then the crap at k-mart
The place is sometimes a mess but if you are patient you can save a fortune.
Marshalls prices are less then most dapartment stores deepest discoutn price. I buy. Since 9/11 (they lost a bunch of buyers on one of the flights) there selection has not been as good.
voice, I don't disagree but at the Bay Plaza Marshalls you'll be lucky to find anything you want.
Personally, I prefer the Century 21 Department store in Lower Manhattan (Fulton St station on the 4 , 5 or Cortlandt St on the N, R, W). They also have a store on 86th St/Bay Ridge - about 1 block from the R train.
There is a much, much bigger and better selection. They discount upwards to 55% or more on some items. When I was located in lower Manhattan I would go in at least 3 or 4 times a month (I worked 3 blocks away). Now I go once a month on a weekend.
For those who have never gone there I recommend you go at least once. Trust me you want to go back many more times.
What is wrong with Target(or as you say Targhetto)? I find those stores better organized, have a good selection of items, are cleaner and the prices are certainly competative.
Target's a cool store. Much cleaner and better organized than K-Mart. Plus, there are always enough registers open (in sharp contrast to Wal-Mart).
Target's a cool store. Much cleaner and better organized than K-Mart. Plus, there are always enough registers open (in sharp contrast to Wal-Mart).
Target does usually have shorter lines at their registers here in New Jersey, but that's because there aren't nearly as many customers. I've been in the Howell township Wal*Mart when all of the registers are open - 14 or so of them - and the lines are eight people deep at each one. Sure, the Target in Ocean township has 22 registers, but there aren't ever more than seven or eight of them open, and you MIGHT have to wait in line if it's a busy day.
I don't shop in either one enough to make a broad-brush comparison of prices, but for most of the items that my wife and I do purchase there, Wal*Mart is worth the extra drive (identical item, better price).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The target store at gateway plaza is a fairly well run operation as opposed to the K-mart.
Target carries a more stylish product line that tends to be a drop more expensive then k-marts cloting line
I like target
I like the Target store as well, but I prefer Wal*Mart's lower prices. My wife buys a lot of two particular brands of cotton yarn, one of which is carried by both Target and Wal*Mart (among other stores), and Wal*Mart's price is significantly lower than anyone else's; they also have the best prices on the brands of shampoo we buy (but not soap - the grocery stores do better). We still end up buying yarn in both places, though, because Wal*Mart doesn't carry quite the range of colors that Target does.
I do tend to wonder whether the miserable condition of the nearest KMart to my house in New Jersey is a reflection on store management or a reflection of the clientele that are its primary customers. I tend to suspect that it's some of both, but especially the latter, which makes me concerned that the Target (fairly near by, and served by the same bus line) will become a dirty, disheveled store if that KMart closes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I do tend to wonder whether the miserable condition of the nearest KMart to my house in New Jersey is a reflection on store management or a reflection of the clientele that are its primary customers. I tend to suspect that it's some of both, but especially the latter, which makes me concerned that the Target (fairly near by, and served by the same bus line) will become a dirty, disheveled store if that KMart closes.
Doubtful. Target is a much better run operation, especially when it comes to store appearance.
Doubtful. Target is a much better run operation, especially when it comes to store appearance.
Target does make more of an effort, that's true. But I can't help but look at the clientele of that particular Kmart and wonder, since by and large they are dirty and disheveled too.
Oh well, maybe they'll leave the Target alone... there's a Cost Cutters that's two stops earlier on the bus line and a Value City in the same shopping center as Target; the ambience of those two places is just like Kmart, its clientele will feel right at home :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Target does make more of an effort, that's true. But I can't help but look at the clientele of that particular Kmart and wonder, since by and large they are dirty and disheveled too.
Oh well, maybe they'll leave the Target alone... there's a Cost Cutters that's two stops earlier on the bus line and a Value City in the same shopping center as Target; the ambience of those two places is just like Kmart, its clientele will feel right at home :-)
There are two Wal-Marts along Route 25 in Suffolk County, not too far from me. One is in Centerreach and the other's about ten miles farther east in Middle Island. Most of the residential areas around the Centerreach store are quite a bit better than those in Middle Island. In fact, some areas around the latter store can best be described as sort of an exurban ghetto. Despite that, I've noticed little if any difference in the cleanliness and organization of either store, in fact, Middle Island might be the nicer of the two.
Another Wally World will be opening soon on Route 347 in East Setauket, a considerably more upscale area than Centerreach or especially Middle Island. It'll be interesting to see if the store's cleanliness and appearance reflects that.
Possibly. I was at a Target Greatland (the mega-sized version) at the Bassett Center in El Paso last October, which is the closest one to the poorer area of the city and the one frequented the most by people from across the border, who also tend to have lower incomes. Admittedly, it was Halloween time and the kids were on the attack in that section of the store, but it had a much messier look than the other Targets I've seen (though if you really want to talk sloppy, the stores like Dollar General and Family Dollar that try to undercut Wal-Mart in prices on small ticket items often look like someone has set off a bomb on their shelves. Low-prices=low staffing+low pay, which in turn = a mess).
"Target does make more of an effort, that's true. But I can't help but look at the clientele of that particular Kmart and wonder, since by and large they are dirty and disheveled too."
My guess is they are not, and you are reacting to a few who perhaps are.
Have you looked in a mirror lately?
Gee, what happened to discussions on rail transit. Seems like our favorite topic, 76th Street took a backseat today. Anyway Target is far superior than Crap-Mart so I don't care if they close ALL Crap-Mart stores down. They are dirty, unorganized, and reps. who work there don't want to help you.
"Anyway Target is far superior than Crap-Mart so I don't care if they close ALL Crap-Mart stores down. They are dirty, unorganized, and reps. who work there don't want to help you."
There are some union organizers who would like to talk to you...
:0)
For the record, K-Mart is a non union store.
My guess is they are not, and you are reacting to a few who perhaps are.
Trust me, at that particular Kmart they are. See my post .
Have you looked in a mirror lately?
Not any more often than I have to :-) My beard gets a bit wild and woolly at times, but other than that I'm always neat and clean, thank you.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not sure what happened there... the data transmission to Dave generated a protocol error somehow and it looks like it dropped one critical character, it was fine in the preview. Let's try that again...
My guess is they are not, and you are reacting to a few who perhaps are.
Trust me, at that particular Kmart they are. See my post 434222.
Have you looked in a mirror lately?
Not any more often than I have to :-) My beard gets a bit wild and woolly at times, but other than that I'm always neat and clean, thank you.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wal-mart is definitly cheaper on most items. Target tries to set itself as more of the style leader rather then the price leader
Unfortunilty thier are no wal-marts in brooklyn
K-mart has serious management issues all throughout it's chain from upper management down to the store level. This is the primary reason why it is not doing well.
" I do tend to wonder whether the miserable condition of the nearest KMart to my house in New Jersey is a reflection on store management or a reflection of the clientele that are its primary customers. I tend to suspect that it's some of both, but especially the latter, which makes me concerned that the Target (fairly near by, and served by the same bus line) will become a dirty, disheveled store if that KMart closes. "
I have wondered about that as well when it comes to the KMart in Bay Plaza. I have come to the conclusion that it is both. I have seen store staff walk by fallen merchandise and not pick it up. Then you have the parents that don't even make an attempt to keep their kids in line.
"I do tend to wonder whether the miserable condition of the nearest KMart to my house in New Jersey is a reflection on store management or a reflection of the clientele that are its primary customers."
It's foolish (and can be prejudicial) to blame customers for a poorly run store.
"I tend to suspect that it's some of both, but especially the latter, which makes me concerned that the Target (fairly near by, and served by the same bus line) will become a dirty, disheveled store if that KMart closes. "
I'm saddened by your unfortunate attitude - which is to condemn a whole community and support a cheap-shot excuse which store management can use to justify its own incompetence and contempt for the community (and perhaps its racism as well). If they can't run a store properly, maybe it should close.
It's foolish (and can be prejudicial) to blame customers for a poorly run store.
I'm not. What I am doing is wondering if the condition of the store is as much a reflection of the community as anything else. Most of the people who shop there, judging from their appearance and behavior, are slobs. The shoplifting problem was bad enough at one time that the music/video/photo section now has its own security tag system and entrance/exit into the main store, in addition to the store-wide one. The adjacent grocery store closed several years ago and remains vacant (with the trend to larger stores, no grocery chain except Aldi's would consider locating there [and it's already across the highway], but with only Kmart in the plaza nothing else is likely to either). There are shopping areas all around, most equally downscale, most with cleanliness problems. So while Kmart management may be partly to blame for the mess, the customers certainly contribute.
I'm saddened by your unfortunate attitude - which is to condemn a whole community ...
Why do you consider it unfortunate that I don't tolerate slobs? No, I don't particularly like being around people who give the perception of not having bathed or changed their clothes in a week; who think nothing of tossing merchandise on the floor; who let their children run haphazardly through the store and the parking lot (but who would be the first to sue if one of their brood got run over); who don't seem to know how to speak without the use of curse words. When one individual behaves that way, I will condemn that person's behavior; when an entire community of people behave that way, I will condemn the behavior of all of them. And there's no racism involved; both store management and the miscreants are of a similar ethnic mix - A to Z and everything in between.
If they can't run a store properly, maybe it should close.
Agreed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I used to shop occasionally at Target in Champaign, IL. There were usually only two or three registers open, with very long lines. No express checkouts, of course.
These days I find myself occasionally at the Target in College Point, which is much better in that respect.
ObSubway: Are any Targets easily accessed by transit? According to another thread, there will soon be one above the Atlantic-Pacific hub in Brooklyn.
ObSubway: Are any Targets easily accessed by transit? According to another thread, there will soon be one above the Atlantic-Pacific hub in Brooklyn.
I think there's one on Queens Boulevard, not sure if its open already or being built.
The Target you are referring to is on Queens Blvd, occupying the 3rd and 4th floors of the old Alexanders building, near 55th ave. For those who can't find it, it's the round building on the north side of Queens Blvd 2 blocks from Grand Ave Subway station. Other stores, such as Circuit City and a Outback steakhouse are in the same building.
That wasn't the old Alexander's building (that was on 63rd Dr. and now houses Sears and Marshalls)
The round building was the old Macy's, which became sister store Stern's when Macy's replaced the A&S in Queens Mall.
Then, the Stern's was to be turned into a mall
(haven't been over there in a while. Have to check it out).
You will love it there, it's much nicer, take the kids, there's a place inside the old Macy's (forgot the name of it), it's like Chuck-e-Cheese playland.
Not Circuit City, the store is Best Buys.
Was it the old Alexander's bldg? I remember that Macy's used to be there until A & S shut down. Then they moved into the A & S space in the Queens Center mall.
It's a Queens landmarkk of sorts., for it's unique circular design when it was built sometime in the 60's.
There's one here in Bklyn at the new Gateway Center. It is somewhat accessible to transit(slow B13 bus via A/C to Euclid Ave or J/Z to Crescent Street). You got to walk into the mall once you get off the last stop of the B13.
There's a target in Elmhurst on Female Monarchs Blvd near the Grand Avenue-Newtown stop.
?
Dunno about the Astor Place store, but I sort of hope that one survives due to its "historic relic" connection with the 6 station.
Per the K-mart press release, the metro NYC closings are:
Bay Parkway in Brooklyn
Fresh Meadows, Queens
Stony Brook, Syosset and Westbury on LI
Old Bridge, NJ
CG
I'm not surprised that the Stony Brook K-Mart is closing. Although it's in a high-traffic area, right by the Smith Haven Mall, there's a Target about a mile away and a Wal-Mart opening soon about three miles away. I was only in the K-Mart once, maybe two years ago, but I remember that it seemed sort of worn out and shabby. It also doesn't seem to do much business, judging by the number of cars in the parking lot.
The bay parkway kmart was the highest volume kmart in the country when it opened only surpassed by the latter opining of aster place
Don't forget that this is the SECOND round of store closings. The Green Acres store in Valley Stream was on the first list of closings.
The Huntington Station store in the Big H shopping Center on NY Avenue is also a poorly run store. Within several days of its opening there was trash strewn around, shelves in disarray. The Town of Huntington had to issue summons for trash --- Where was the management in supervising a BRAND NEW STORE?
While things improved a bit, the few recent times I've gone in there, there is no inventory and shelves are empty....Also the help looks demoralized. The only saving grace is that it the shopping center is served by the S-1 and is near low-income housing where people can walk to the store.
I was just there after work today. They better not close it!
---Brian
As an ex vendor, I know K-Marts rate their stores from 0 to 7. I do not know what a 0 means but the two Manhattan stores rate a 2. BayPlaza in the Bronx rates a 1. Survivability of stores is based upon traffic, exchange of funds, resupply from vendors and property/employee/utility costs. Penn Station has a high traffic rate and the other store downtown has a captive audience from NYU.
The stores are unstocked and look like dumps but are high revenue earners, I shop WalMart SuperCenter in East Stroudsberg.
VOTE NO FOR RATIFICATION. CI Peter
It is bad that the K-Mart management could not find a better way to remain active in the doomed stores.
The loss of these salried workes will have an effect on many segments of the economy that will effect you, all of you.
Consider, less taxes paid from wages. Your share gets bigger.
Less money paid into health insurance benifits. Your share gets bigger.
Less demand for goods and services by these out of work employees.
Your business may be negatively affected.
Demands on unemployement, welfare, food stamps and other government agencies. Your share gets bigger.
The ripple effect is a two way flow. In good times , the same dollar passes through many hands.
I hard times, those lost dollars are lost by more then one person or family.
avid
From what I hear only Brooklyn and Queens will get the ax on the first round.
ALL of their January inventories were rescheduled, those that will be closed might have a liquidation inventory paid for by the liquidator (Gorden Brothers?).
All of this has to be approved by the Bankruptcy Court.
replace with wal mart or target !!..................?
In the same timeframe that that the NYC MTA was in shambles, was the WMATA in horrible shape too? I mean now the Metrorail is very clean, loose garbage is rare, NO GRAFFITI at all on cars or in stations, and the only thing etched on windows are the grease from people's hair.
It has always been thus. WMATA never had a graffitti problem, save for a couple of Rohr trains laid up I saw pictures of once (they were laid up north of Silver Spring). They really stay on top of litter, graffitti and vandalism, keeping it at an almost nonexistent level.
wayne
Wayne is right, there are many factors as to why the Metro looks so well, first is the security within each station...there are closed circuit cameras everywhere. Secondly, there are very few places where the floor comes in direct contact w/ the walls, there's not that many "hiding places", also, if you'll notice, there's always a gap between the platforms and walls from which indirect lighting is located. The only time where I ever saw trash being a problem was after 9-11 when the Metro removed all trash receptacles from the stations for fear of providing a location to hide bombs. Also, keep in mind, the Metro is only 26 years old versus the NY Subway being almost 100.
The cameras are only monitors and don't record anything. Also, Metro's zero tolerance policy makes it virtually impossible for the artists to enjoy looking at their work, so they are less likely to vandalize in the first place.
Baltimore has the same no tolerence policy. I've seen buses, lrv's and subway cars, right out of the paint shop, get tagged. The tagged unit goes right back into the paint shop.
Even applies to interors if it's major. Scratchiti is unknown here or in Washington.
Is it my imagination or is there a distinct lack of interest in SubTalk by the fairer sex?
You have the mouse (Annon e), the V train lover (V train/B47), maybe there are more women that have more interest in Subtalk than we realize. But us men still outnumber women by at least 10 to 1.
Chris (Annon e mouse) is a guy....at least he was the last time I saw him...his ZZTop beard kinda gave it away....:)
There might be one or two more women here, but I'm not able to verify at this point in time....I was always bad at biology...
Isn't "subway grrl" a lady? And I recall one or two others. Plus, check the list of site contributors: Peggy Darlington's in there.
..the mouse was a MALE last time I saw..
the dames come out when we blokes play nice. (which is seldom and far between)
bingbong
subwaygrrl
Bx55
(?) Lorenzen
Jan Lorenzen's a guy... and of course so am I...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We want PROOF!! :)
We want PROOF!! :)
Right here!
And if it's PROFF you want, you can find it on the SubTalk Field Trip pages on this site :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, things were scary for a moment....now we can rest easy...LOL!
See ya in a couple of months, Chris!
Make sure you tell Chris to tell Anon to tell Doug. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
LOL... that is too funny. I feel the same way about you know who Andee.
-Harry
The Other Side of the Tracks
Nice show Anon. You are very lucky. I wish you the very best. And when are we going to go railfanning again? You, Fishbowl, and me. What a trio.
As far as I know my wife posts on this site with my help. And I yes she is female she is expecting my 4th child in March. Guess her Sub Handle Stevie ;)
Well give Stevie a big hug for me. A mother of four and a good wife. Sounds like a gem to me. We men who have wonderful wives have no idea just how lucky we are. My best wishes to your Stevie.
AHHHHHH! I swear I saw you once at a railfan window on an R38 about 7 years ago. Some kid was crying cuz you wouldn't move! LOL.
'Twere not I... I've shared the window for years. Though it's quite possible that you did see me seven years ago... that's how long I've been in Jersey, close enough to ride on a relatively regular basis again.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nah, I was just kidding. No railfan would make a little boy cry.
***"(?) Lorenzen"***
In American dialect 'Jan' is usually associated with the fairer sex.
European dialect 'Jan' is a variation of John.
Here's another dependent on the dialect, 'Marion'.
;-) Sparky
Guess I better put up another link to
That't the second time today I've had a bad posting... this one was my fault, however (I should have previewed but I didn't)... let's try it again...
Guess I better put up another link to Anon_e_mouse's Home Page. Hint... I'm the older person in the top photo :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"You have the mouse" ... ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
What a good laugh I had on that one!
--Mark
Actually, almost everyone here is female. We just use masculine sounding names to keep the few men from feeling self-conscious.
I like that this subject comes up about once every six months -- and each time it does, somebody mis-identifies the gender of at least one poster. It only took 6 minutes to happen this time. That must be a record.
CG
Gee I REALLY did goof this time. Holder of a Subtalk record, six mimutes of a misunderstanding.
"Actually, almost everyone here is female. We just use masculine sounding names to keep the few men from feeling self-conscious."
Sure, didn't you guys know Tony is short for Antoinette????? *L*
Or is it Toni...
I'm SO confused
By the way I have blessed the cab lately,3 times in the last week 3 different women.There are women railfans out there but they want to give us views of their tunnels.Right SubBUs?
Sure you can handle it? There's no lights in some of those tunnels....LOL!
And sometimes these tunnels do experience flooding from time to time. HA HA!
Yeah, but you don't have to worry about Grade-Timers...
LOL! But at least there are no speed restrictions so you could go the max ;-).........
Unless you've operating a four-car G train :-)
Oh, then that might explain the train delays this morning on the A-Division? :)
Heh, yeah ... that oughta bring them out in droves. So how much do they get these days for "around the turnstile?" :)
Some more not mentioned: subway-buff, and I think one half of Sunshine and Stevie also. Plus we had Ms. SEPTA for a while... she's changed her handle, don't remember what it is now offhand.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Don't forget Subway grrl (did I get the right number of r's in there)
I don't know if subwaybuff is or not...
She is, and a Station Agent to boot.
Let's all hear it for bringing back BX55. She absolutely "loved" me. Anybody remember her?
I heard she 'loves' somebody else...could be a C/R for all I know ;)
You're really Sea Beach Frederique (van der Waal), right? :)
--Mark
Well if you say so El Marko. Who in the devil is he anyway?
Not he ... she!!
--Mark
Now El Marko, while the one Selkirk told me about out here (and I can't even remember her name) did nothing for me, your girl does. She is some good looking lady. Wow!!!!! You know how to pick 'em, which is more than I can say for Kevin. The one he told me about looked like a shallow brained bimbo. Not yours. She's class.
Yeah, she asked a personal question and you lit into her. Luckily she forgave you.
I am an "IT".I am not Peggy. I repeat, I am not Peggy- I am an "IT".
Peggy darlington, authgor of numerous pages on the subway and commuter rail lines isa female and asked em to post the follwoing reason why females do nto post:
1- Guys think females shoudl go back to their dolls, babies, sewing and cooking.
2- If a females is crazy enough to like trains then they are uneducated and do not knwow hat the guys know. Peggy has askeds me to tell this story: When Dave asked for volunteers Peggy volunteered to do the 4 line and made the error of asking for photos, etc. Peggy says most responses were "go back to the dolls and babies". Judging fromt he pages, I think Peggy proved females can like and know tains.
I agree with Peggy. females can like trains and males need to realize not all females want the dolls and babies.
As far as women posters- perhaps if you guys started acting like gentlemen and started sharing the virtual railfan window more females would post. OINK!
Remember- I am an "IT".
remember- I am an "IT" . I am a machine. R esistance is futile. Machiens will prevail just like the Borg.
Well, I have been on one of Peggy's SubTalk field trips, she knows her stuff, and a good time was had by all.
Well, I have been on one of Peggy's SubTalk field trips, she knows her stuff, and a good time was had by all
Oh boy, that could be taken in such a filthy way ...
Oh shoot, I guess I really phrased that bad!
Be nice. Just a hard day at work.
Well, since this topic was commented on in another thread, I'm married (25 years now) to a "real" woman, one who has enough self-confidence and "grit" to ignore the childish when encountered, sufficiently sure of herself and her capabilities (she's the CEO of our company, I'm just a lackey) that she may bristle at "stupidity" but can tolerate it.
HAD the TA been more welcoming to women, my hunny would have BEEN a conductor in the early 70's, but as I pointed out before, they were strongly DISCOURAGED from doing so, pointed to the token booths instead. :(
As she finally found out at Branford, she *HAS* the moxie to have gotten through school car in a flash. She operated better than ANYONE else as far as many of us could tell by the "ride quality" and the braking ... so I'd merely offer for those who now feel that they must cover their tail, too late. Heh.
While women aren't interested in childishness (if you think foamerettes are in mighty short supply, the supply of wimmens willing to sit through THREE STOOGES is FAR slimmer) I don't think our usual rantings really bother them HALF as much as the nastiness we sometimes get into among some folks here.
Women DO belong on railroads, women ARE railfans, and some have a shoe paddle up their ... ... for those who ARE "one of the guys" welcome. For the guys who feel the need to put women up on a pedestal (so they can peek up their dress) GROW UP. Foaming is for everybody.
And to whomever said "go play with dolls" (never found the message) whoever you are, you're in need of some SERIOUS counseling. My "foamerette" is not alone in her passion for trains, elevated lines and OPERATING. And she STILL has time to bless the cab. I think I'll KEEP her. :)
Meant to add to the previous, ONLY reason y'all don't see "Bingbong" around here or Unca Harry's place much has NOTHING to do with her being offended, simply a matter of TOO much going on here for her to find the time to wade through ... some folks have REAL things to do and unfortunately Subtalk requires a good amount of time to work through and she doesn't have the luxury of THAT much time.
But she'd be here salivating just like everybody else *IF* she had the time ... I'm sure there's others with the same situation ...
[Remember- I am an "IT".
remember- I am an "IT" . I am a machine. R esistance is futile. Machiens will prevail just like the Borg.]
OK...you're an IT. So from now on can I refer to you as 'It'?
It? Are we playing tag?
Well, errrrr, uhhhhh OK.
Relax, we got the message .... you're tripping over all of your words :)
--Mark
I'm a man who likes the babies, specifically my beautiful Baby K, who's almost crawling now. :-) (I can go on and on about her, but I'd better not!)
But anyway, looking arround these boards, it's not hard to see why many women don't post. It's hard to say exactly where it is, since there are many nice posters, but there is a mean streak about this place. And there's also a lot of sexism.
---Andrew
Transportation forums in general don't seem to attract many women. I'm also a regular on airliners.net, and like SubTalk it has a relatively small number of women. Misc.transport.road is another mostly male forum.
Oddly enough, the one forum where I'm a regular that does have a substantial number of women is misc.fitness.weights. Apparently weightlifting is more interesting to women than are trains, planes or cars!
I am an "IT".I am not Peggy. I repeat, I am not Peggy- I am an "IT".
Peggy darlington, authgor of numerous pages on the subway and commuter rail lines isa female and asked em to post the follwoing reason why females do nto post:
1- Guys think females shoudl go back to their dolls, babies, sewing and cooking.
2- If a females is crazy enough to like trains then they are uneducated and do not knwo what the guys know. Peggy has asked me to tell this story: When Dave asked for volunteers Peggy volunteered to do the 4 line and made the error of asking for photos, etc. Peggy says most responses were "go back to the dolls and babies". Judging fromt he pages, I think Peggy proved females can like and know tains.
I agree with Peggy. females can like trains and males need to realize not all females want the dolls and babies.
As far as women posters- perhaps if you guys started acting like gentlemen and started sharing the virtual railfan window more females would post. OINK!
Remember- I am an "IT". Peggy has asked me to post this.
remember- I am an "IT" . I am a machine. Resistance is futile. Machiens will prevail just like the Borg.
Only Piggo and I OINK on this board!
:(:))
>>>Machiens will prevail just like the Borg. <<<
You mean, machines will prevail, just like the MVM.
Peace,
ANDEE
1- Guys think females shoudl go back to their dolls, babies, sewing and cooking.
Not all of us. As long as all the women's work is done, I don't mind 'em watching a football game.
(ducks)
And I like Barbie and Ken too! AHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! LOL evilly. OOH HOO HOO OOH HOO HOO!
Ms. Septa is LightRailChic now I believe.
You are correct... thanks for refreshing my memory. (What's that they say about getting older... your memory is the second thing to go, and I forget the first...)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, Bustalk is even worse. Its like 99% male over there.
More like 99.5% ;-). Seriously, the only female posters I ever saw there was V Train B47 Bus & I think subwaybuff@mindspring.com is female too; other than that no other females that I know of ever posted there.
Don't forget Peggy Darlington, a major contributor to this site. I think we can up the percentage of female participation if we think in terms of quality contribution to SubTalk and nycsubway.org.
You're right it does seem like there aren't too many women on this board. There could be more women & girls on this board than you think but we just don't know for sure.
Is it my imagination or is there a distinct lack of interest in SubTalk by the fairer sex?
Mitch: If you want women try the Oxygen Channel or Lifetime Televison. This is one of the last bastions of masculine interests.
Here hale and hearty railfans tell hairy and hoary stories of single handed combat with non-working turnstiles and hair-raising tales of adventure in ancient subway cars in rat infested tunnels.
Do you really think that any woman in her right mind would get up at three in the morning when the temperature is ten below zero and travel for two hours to some god-forsaken subway terminal simple to witness the last run of a green painted R11 with pink polka dots and a green stripe.
Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33
Do you really think that any woman in her right mind would get up at three in the morning when the temperature is ten below zero and travel for two hours to some god-forsaken subway terminal simple to witness the last run of a green painted R11 with pink polka dots and a green stripe.
Nor would any man :-) But I don't think any of us have claimed to be totally sane, have we?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Find me dat wimmen!!!!!!!! CI peter
SAme reason girls never had Lionels growing up.
Although Lionel tried to market the infamous Girl's Train, to reach that segment... didn't succeed, those girls who wanted trains wanted the real thing, not some sissified pink locomotive. Those sets that survive, though, are worth a small fortune today. Lionel even tried re-releasing them a few years back as "collector" sets (and K-Line made their own copy as well) but they didn't sell well to the collectors either.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, I remember those funny pink trains.
I was so envious of my boy cousin's train set in the 1950's. It had
"smoke" coming out of the engine, and working parts that rolled logs off of a car, and delivered milk cans. I also liked my cousins' plastic building blocks (I think they were pre-Lego). But girls didn't get those presents back then. Thank goodness I liked dolls, too!
Subway grrl
Take heart, times are changing: My Dad bought my niece her first toy train set before she was even born. She loves playing with "Tommy," as she calls her Thomas the Tank Engine set.
Mark
Eh, it's just a doll on wheels.
I see, Thomas the Tank Engine is a doll, but by no stretch of the imagination is G.I. Joe a doll. He's an action figure!
: )
Mark
Right. Action figure. I slept with an action stuffed animal for years.
Ah yes, a young lady, whom appreciated the finer things in life.
The Golden Years of Lionel.
;-) Sparky
Sounds like a Flyer log loader and milk car to me.
So your folks never got you the 'Sally Steam Engine' (or whatever it was called?). I'm referring to a PINK steam engine produced by Lionel in the late '50's aimed at getting girls into the hobby. It was a pathetic failure, as girls knew darn well that nowhere did a REAL pink train consist exist....now the pink set is a highly-prized item among die-hard Lionel collectors.
Uh, don't forget my girl, V Train! *swoon*
-poke,poke- C'mon Pinky,let's join forces.Together,we shall rule SUBTALK!!BUWAHAHAHAHA!!! and then...and then THE WORLD!!HAHAHAHA!!! -is clearly acting overly crazy tonight-
Nah, it's the same thing we do EVERY night. :)
Yes!! That's the V Train I like. Oh... *swoons once more* : )
Where be D wimmen Car Inspectors?
Dey B dressin' like da men, mon!
Ok, Fred...you got your request. I'm back!
God help us all..................
I think this was the C/R BMTman was talking about before... ; )
Is it the C/R with a code name?
Buttaball?
Yes, word on the street is that this C/R's nickname is "Buttaball". I wonder whoever gave him uch a name. ???
When are you a 'Buttaball' gonna bless the cab of an R-143?
Before or after the wedding?
:)
Geez ... CLOSE the door ... ya wanna go blind? :)
You're a real card Kevin. I take it you're Irish descent, right? Here is a tip for you. There is a group called the Fenians. They are from Southern California but they are going to make a U.S tour starting in February. If you can get to the city or know anyone who likes Irish music this group is terrific. I'm listening to one of their CD's right now. Have a great day. Of course, if you make it down to the city don't forget to ride my train.
I'm of half Scottish and half Irish in ethnic background, the ethnic clashes going on internally pretty much make me say fook it, so I'm just glad to be an Uh-merican. But I still have this irresistable urge to break into a jig, just so's I can kick meself. :)
Will check them out. As to da SeaBits, I've ridden it numerous times. When it wasn't closed of course. Moo! But my heart still goes out to my old Brighton run - I WORKED there. Now if you wanna talk about really nifty Brooklyn runs, the Culver SHUTTLE and the Myrt were genuine treats in my book. But then N wasn't bad either.
You think that's bad? I'm half Irish and half German. I don't know whether I want to get drunk or invade France.
Actually you COULD do both. :)
I don't know whether I want to get drunk or invade France.
Sounds a better idea than Iraq - the climate's much more temperate and the food is the best in the world...
And da Frankie, right? Ha!
I was wondering how long it would take you to notice my very deliberate oversight. Heh. I was afraid if I'd mentioned it, Heypaul would have assumed the fetal position. Can't have that now. :)
Oh, you kid. You've got be LMAO once again.
WHAT!?
Is that 'YOU' ???
Are you the same dame whom was flat on her back (no! NO! not
THAAAAAAT way....eesh..) on the platform of 110-CPN being swung side
to side by yours truly and Mr. W way back when I recall??
Or is me just confused.
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Don't remind me ---> 3rd Avenue EL ... *Frowning*
N BWY
Hey - long time no see!
BX 55, welcome back. This is your old pal Sea Beach Fred. I missed you and hope it was mutual. Stay on board.
I'll try, I'll try...lol My pal, Mark W. updates me as I don't always have a chance to log onto Subtalk.
You two have to meet one of these days.:)
Hey, Bx55! Have you put anything new up at your website? :)
Ain't it de truth mon. So the Lord heals me from a terrible illness that nobody could discover, puts me back into top shape at middle age, gets me this great job in TA and I'm back to the 'boys club' of twenty five years ago. Is there some secret club of men in TA looking for serious women??? I'm 5'8" 175 Lbs , no butt/no gut. I can carry a eighty pound pack with my rifle for miles and endure the worst cold.
Looking for wimmen Car Inspectors that know what to do when you gotta go in the woods that are not afeared of BEAR. Gotta solid cedar timber lodge out west in Warren County, New Jersey.
Eyeah, deah be dressin like de men in uniform blues. I wear railroad denims to do my work and I'm proud of what I have learned and what I can do. TA work is excellent work.
VOTE NO FOR RATIFICATION. CI peter
Hey Mon, maybe dey all be holed up in dos R-142's with RushHourSpecialist and SubBus blessing de cab! Dat's where dey be at!
(This rasta accent sucks, don't it? :)
Ja ... I and I think you'd best be checking the ingredients in dem stogies, mon ... smell like chicken. :)
Seesh Selkirk you're too much sometimes :0).
Yeah there is a lack of interest by the female's,that's the reason why I came here in the first place.I knew girl's don't have much interest in trains and buses like you macho men do,so I decided to stirr thing's up a little and show up and share with you, all my knowledge of the MTA,other transit systems,trains,and buses and to show that there are girl's who like trains and buses just as much as the guy's.So listen up men!Your homework is to get your brains working and start acknowledging that girl's can be into transit thing's just as much as yourselves and if you fail to do so,I just might decide to pay a visit to each guy here and proceed to torch your house down.Who's gonna be my first victim... -coughs- umm,honor student! ^.^
-starts dancing around like an Indian- wwwwwwoooooo! I'm a pyro! wwwwwoooooo!I wanna burn it up! WWWWOOOOOWWWWW!!! -laughs evilly-
Hey: find me that girl! I still look at R142s as big pinball machines. Door don't work....broken flipper solenoid. Light don't work...check scoring switch...look for debris in the outhole.
Well you can't expect the R142's to be perfect.Sure they are new trainsets that means there should never be any problem's.But think about one thing.They are the first ever computerized subway cars to run on MTA property,or any subway system in the country for that matter,so it's gonna take quite awhile for TA subway crew's to get used them and figure out what to do when such and such occur's. Patience my fine feathered friend,patience is a virtue.Use it well.
In due time nobody will be hearing of any problem's like those that occur now about the R142's.
Until they are open source (ex. "End User Hardware Modification Act") firmware for train and car computers, I can never recommend a computer control system. What would you do if ford is raided and the source for your car is lost? How do you fix your car when 5 years down the roadd you find out that if you keep your engine at 2343 rpm for 2 seconds your car is floored and brakes are disabled? I never heard of the built-in electronics going under reliablilty test testing for electromagnetic, nuclear, static radiation or chaffed wires or melted insulation. Hell, I can zap your spark-plug energy generator thingies and your car comes to a stop (saw it on cops). Also those built-in computer kill the open repair market. Each of thoses analyzers cost $2500 and last only 3-6 years per manufacture.
BURN BABY BURN!
OH HELL YEAH!!
Anime smilies? Oh boy... ^_^
I didn't read the entire post...silly me...
You can burn my house down, but please be gentle with me! ^_~
0.0 you know about anime!? Don't mean to get off topic here but now this is a unexpected turn of event's! The last thing I expected to find here of all places was someone who know's about anime....maybe even like it?
Well, yeah I do know about it... I was a bit hesitant to admit though... I guess the truth has come out! I just hope we tone down the use of it, I hope!? ^_^;;
Why tone down the use of something that is far better than anything else? Hate to say it but Japanese animation is way better than American cartoons.Sure American cartoons has some comedy and romance and action but Japanese animation cartoons take all that and kicks them up a few notches....BAM! lol.
American cartoons weren't all bad...
If anything, I hate seeing how modern American animators are copying anime more and more. Whatever happened to those good-ole cartoons from past times. Like the 40's, 70's and 80's. That was when American cartoons were distinguishable. Now they just leech off everything else. Leave anime to anime!
I personally hate cartoons made after 1995 and newer. Scooby, loony toons, jetsons, flinstones (old), old spider-mans, old batmans, old supermans, hanna-barbra cartoons were always great and I'am really sorry they don't make cartoons anymore. Last I heard one of them was 107 and other was dead. Hanna-Barbra cartoons represented American cartoons and there will never be any like them ever again. And for japanese ammie, they are way too censored for me to be remotly interested. If you cut all the homophobia, drugs, sex, gangs, hitmen, incest, jap. curses, gang atacks yuo have nothing left. I have seen uncensored subtitled-in-english japanesse ammie and it was good but the US whitewashed versions for 7 year-olds I hate. Did you know they have drug use and lesbians on sailor moon in japan but you never see it the US version.
You should watch "Adult Swim" on Cartoon Network late at night. Those are American made (or to be more specific, made across 10th street from my school). The writers must be on crack when they think of an episode. They are funny as hell and very f**ked up. They don't look anime at all.
Why tone down the use of something that is far better than anything else? Hate to say it but Japanese animation is way better than American cartoons.Sure American cartoons has some comedy and romance and action but Japanese animation cartoons take all that and kicks them up a few notches....BAM! lol.
Why tone down the use of something that is far better than anything else? Hate to say it but Japanese animation is way better than American cartoons.Sure American cartoons has some comedy and romance and action but Japanese animation cartoons take all that and kicks them up a few notches....BAM! lol.
maybe women are more intellegent ....& can see the .._________!!
thats on this board..........good for them !!
I had an idea that might help address this issue a little tiny bit. How many SubTalkers out there have children? Why not have an annual SubTalk Take-Your-Daughter-Railfanning Day?
: )
Mark
IF they are young enough it just might work. If you expose a child to something you like when they are 5 years old or less and you aren't the disipline enforcer they will like doing that when they grow up. If you are the discipline enforcer they explicitaly won't like that since they asscociate that with you. I don't recommend taking your kids railfanning but your grandkids.
I've read all the post [pro & con] & I'm LOL.
But let me interject a fact.
"A Gathering of SubTalkers" at Branford, Sunday 13 October, 2002
24 participants of which 4 were Female. So who says the Ladies
aren't interested in what we do?
;-) Sparky
They're here. Many use non-feminine handles for obvious reasons.
For the record, I'm all man.
I would assume its for the same reason there are very few men on a soap opera forum.
Well, there are men, but they all are looking for other men, if you know what I mean.
There are soap operas for men...pro wrestling, for example.
Mark
...and the old 'Dark Shadows' series, evidently.
Yes, and I have 45 Volumes of Dark Shadows... I am guilty as charged.
-Stef
YOU? You're TOO young to be into DS! :)
I'll try not to swing too much Off Topic, but I've been watching it since I was yay high. Gives me chills.
-Stef
Hey Stef, here's one for you. I once was completely hooked on General Hospital, I mean really boxed in. One summer day in 1982 I went to the beach for some belly board surf riding and at about five to two in the afternoon I decided to go to a bar for drink, and the guy behind the counter knew exactly why I was there. All he said was: "We watch it here every day, too." That was some soap two decades ago, in fact it was the top rated show on TV, daytime or primetime.
I used to like "Knots Landing" myself .....
--Mark
Soap freaks......EEEEK!!!!!
My spouse and several female partners of married rail friends are soapers. My lady tapes the CBS soaps five days a week.
Best way to bug a soap freak. When they talk soaps, we talk streetcars and trains. Usually trips a BIE almost immediately.
That is very true. But personally I only watch it for the backstabbing and cornnieness in the plots (soap opera factor) and so do all of my friends (including one who makes bets on who will win matches (gamble$$$)). I always VCR record my wrestleing shows then fast forward through the ring fights. I can watch 2 hours in 45 minutes normally.
Because it bores them to death?
A certain lady always seems to bury her head in one of those tedious girlie magazines whenever I start ranting about trains... ha! but it served her right when she phoned me and said "I'm in Horsham - how many stops is it to Chichester?"...
Useless trivia: make sure you get on the right half of the London - Horsham - Portsmouth Harbour train - the other half goes to Bognor Regis.
>>> make sure you get on the right half of the London - Horsham - Portsmouth Harbour train - the other half goes to Bognor Regis. <<<
That is a sight I will look for the next time I am there; the right half of a train going to one destination while left half goes somewhere else (and I was just getting used to looking the other way when crossing a street). :-)
Tom
I don't have much time here, but I just wanted to outline Day 1 of my Chicago teip. I took the Three Rivers from PHL to CHI and oddly enough it was early by 5 minutes. This actually screwed me up as my friend was going to meet me at 11:30 to factor in the "typical" Amtrak delay. i then took the UP NORTH line to Lake Forrest, taking lots of pictures at the CNW station and from the train. The galery cars have a great railfan window!
Two cool things. One, while at the CNW station I took a pic of a UP hi-railer and the driver give me his email address to send it to him.
Second, while at Harrisburg, I had so impresed the condustor with my tower knowledge that I got a tour of STATE tower at Harrisburg. The towerman was really nice, I think his name was Bill P(something) and he was from Lindenwold NJ. He was a big tower guy himself and maybe Chuchubob can identify him. He let me take pictures of everything and even let me throw some levers on the big Model-14 machine! He even posed while throwing switches and answering the block phone for my to get action shots.
He encouraged me to come back and check out the Power Director's office and to go to NORTH PHILADELPHIA tower because it might close soon. I got to go now, but I'l post more tomorrow.
PS: I am railfanning Chicago tomorrow and if anyone wants to come with me please reply.
Jersey Mike:
If you're like me, you probably have your railfanning itinerary all set for your Chicago visit, but since I grew up there I just thought I'd throw out a couple of suggestions that you might be interested in.
1.) The CTA Orange line to Midway Airport and back gives you a bird's eye view of some of the more famous crossings in Chicago...You can see what's left of 21st street (where the C&WI line to Dearborn met the GM&O line to St. Louis, the ATSF line to Joliet/KC/LA, the PRR line to Englewood and points East, the IC line to Iowa from Central Station, and the 21st street lift bridge leads to CUS. (The Orange line actually uses the former ATSF ROW West of the crossing.) You'll also be able to see Brighton Park Crossing, which is STILL not an interlocking, all trains must stop before entering the crossing and the signals are semaphores. Those are probably the two most historically interesting points on that trip.
2.) I recommend taking a ride out to Aurora on the former Burlington triple track 'raceway'...try to time it so you get express trains in both directions.
3.) Joliet is served by both the Metra Heritage line and the former Rock Island line. Take one out to Joliet and the other back in. (Remember that the Heritage line runs very few trains so you'd have to do this one during Rush Hour.)
4.) The South Shore to the Michigan City Shops is a LOT of fun. If you have time, consider going all the way to South Bend.
Whatever your plans are, have a great time!
Mike
I've already been out to Aurora on the Amtrak SW Cheif. I'll consider taking the Orange Line tomorrow. The CSS&SB will have to wait for another trip.
Keep me posted. We may be going to Chicago in July. Always wanted to see it, and my wife will be there on business, so that is likely my best chance.
>>>>The towerman was really nice, I think his name was Bill P(something) and he was from Lindenwold NJ. He was a big tower guy himself ..... He let me take pictures of everything and even let me throw some levers on the big Model-14 machine!<<<
Real smart, I hope you just didn't get the man in trouble if any of his higher ups read this board. Do you know the meaning of the word discretion?
Peace,
ANDEE
From his and the conductors' attitude there was no problem with it at all. He activly encouraged me to go visit N. PHILL and the Power Director's office. I figured I might have to throw his name around to prove I'm not up to no good or something.
Sorry I can't show you around the 'L' on the 15th, but I'm leaving for Amsterdam in the afternoon.
Enjoy riding our 'L'. Remember, except for a section of the Blue line between Western and Forest Park, it is all CAB signals.
Jim K.
Chicago
You should drop Dave Cole an e-mail; he's the Chicago expert.
I taked w/ him on AIM before I set off.
The shot that popped up today on my banner is this one:
Dave has identified it as an R36 on the IRT Pelham line. My question is: what's the building visible on the left of the picture with the half-dome cornice?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's going southbound from Zerega to Castle Hill, don't know what that building is.
If the train is heading for Pelham Bay Park, it's going NORTHbound.
It's going SOUTHbound.
Why do you say it's going southbound?
I use the station daily, and that curve is in between C Hill and Zerega. If it were going northbound, you'd see straight tracks.
I'll have to agree
Unless it is a southbound 6 train with the sign saying PELHAM BAY PARK instead of BROOKLYN BRIDGE, I still say the train is going northbound.
Douce,
I use that train everyday as well.
I can assure you that the train is on the southbound track.
You have to remember that the 6 uses the City Hall Loop meaning that the T/O has to change the end sign when the train gets to Brooklyn Bridge. That means that the signs on both ends will read the same at some point. Sometimes a T/O would forget to (or didn't have time to) change the sign before leaving Pelham Bay Park.
I have no idea what that building is either as I haven't been at street level.
Maybe the train was signed wrong, it happens. I know its going southbound b/c Westcehster Av turns to the right as it approaches Castle Hill Av, see the Bronx bus map.
Maybe it was signed wrong. I assumed since the front said PELHAM BAY PARK, it was going there.
I thought it was going northbound myself but when I saw the curve, I knew it was going toward Manhattan.
It's gotta be going northbound, for two reasons....first, the train says Pelham Bay Park, plus, look at the plane above the train...the takeoff and landing pattern from LaGuardia goes from east to west..when planes take off, the head east (towards NJ), and when they land, they head west (towards Long Island).
I've seen that building before...it's just a fancy apartment house from when the Bronx was the suburbs, and upper middle class people lived there.
It's going to MANHATTAN. Also, is Long Island really WEST of the Bronx?
Look, no need to be a smartass- I mixed up east and west, I meant to say west towards NJ and east towards LI and LaGuardia.
Plus, after thinking about it, you're right, the curve is after castle Hill going south..my bad.
Did you mean, BEFORE Castle Hill going south. Also, this is Subtalk and namecalling isn't allowed, no matter how mild.
Also, this is Subtalk and namecalling isn't allowed, no matter how mild.
Unfortunately namecalling can't stay away from Subtalk for long enough. I have been guilty of doing this in the past.
I didn't say "Hey smartass", so I didn't call you any names.
Either way, that building in the picture which started this whole thread is to the right of the train when it's heading south, correct? So the train is going south, you were right.
I might be redundant in saying this but that 6 train is heading southbound b/c the curve turns right around Castle Hill Av on Westchester Av.
The train running on the 6 is a R36WF. The building with the half dormice looks like a house to me.
An apartment building. Passed it many times but not sure of the address.
Thanks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When were the R-36's in service on the 6 line? I always thought they ran exclusively on the 7 line.
This train does not appear to be in service. T/O has his door open, it doesn't look like there are any passengers aboard, and the destination sign says Pelham Bay on a train that is going s/b.
I remember R-36s on the 6.
I don't know when the photo was taken, but years ago, many T/Os operated with the door open.
I don't know when the photo was taken ...
According to Dave's caption, on 04 July 2001.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nope, not so. There were about 4 or 5 sets of R33/36WF cars that ran on the 6. I don't think it was in service neither, it looks like the train is running light since it appears that there are no passengers in the train.
Why can't they do something about the 3 different A's? Would it really be so hard to change letters on at least one of them? All they'd have to do is change the Lefferts A to an H, no service changes needed. It's more frustrating than confusing to have 3 A's.
A's to Rockaway Park is 5 trains only, so that's not much of a problem. For Far Rockaway & Lefferts Blvd, all people have to do is LOOK AT THE SIGNS! If people take the time to look at the destination signs, they won't be confused and go to the wrong terminal; then they want to blame the system when they know they're *WRONG*. It does create longer headways but it's worked out over the years so its ok to me. Many people here suggested the C run to Lefferts but riders at Lefferts don't want to lose a one seat ride & direct express service I'm sure.
This comes up at least once a month. I agree though, I often suggested changing the Lefferts A's to H's. It is the simplest change possible, as it does not involve any service change, all the same trains would run. The H is already on the rollsigns, only station signs would need have a H glued over or next to the A (depending on which stations it is).
However, over the last half of year though, I've kind of been swayed to prefer extending the C to Lefferts. The same excuse always comes up, the whiney Lefferts branch riders don't want to loose express service. (Which of course the H suggestion would have them keep) I don't understand how three stations can decide how the entire Rockaway service east of Euclid Ave is run. It's only the last 15 years or so that they have had full express service. The daytime A used to only run local on Fulton until about the late 80's.
My current suggestion is currently:
C to Lefferts
A to Far Rockaway
H Euclid to Rockaway Park (get rid of that stupid S)
A's became express all day weekdays in 1988, A's became express all times except nights in 1999, so I don't really see all the fuss myself. The Rockaway Park shuttle should go back to being the H and the round robin Rockaway service should return too, the current shuttle pattern is flat out stupid.
Better yet, make C's express in Brooklyn(A local) and A's express in Manhattan(C local), balance out the express/local on both routes and run the C to Rockaway Park and JFK.
NO! You're only going to run into a wall of complaints and its not in the best of ideas to alter the Legendary Express. People will NOT want to change trains so leave the A & C the way it is.
During rush hours, Rock Park trains will be express in Brooklyn, so peak riders will not have to change trains, remember, Manhattan and rush hour are the only things that matter. Anything else can be changed(off peak). Some riders under this plan will have a one seat ride.
But there's only 5 A's that go to Rockaway Park in the rush and running A's local and C's express doesn't make sense and only causes confusion.
Nah! I don't think that a good idea. This will disappoint all 8th Avenue Riders. Here's what I have in mind in bring back the H and K.
I think this can work well.
A Train: 8th Avenue Express
[All Times Except Nights] – Express stops, Inwood/207 St, Manhattan, through Brooklyn, to Far Rockaway, Queens;
[Nights] – All stops in Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Queens from 207 St/Inwood, Manhattan to Far Rockaway, Queens.
C Train: 8th Avenue Local
[All Times except Nights] – All stops from 168 St Washington Height, Manhattan, through Brooklyn, to Lefferts Blvd, Queens.
[Nights] – Shuttle service between Euclid Ave, Brooklyn to Lefferts Blvd, Queens. Transfer to A at Euclid Ave for local service to/from Manhattan.
E Train: 8th Avenue Local
[All Times Except Nights] – Express stops in Queens and all stops in Manhattan, from Jamaica Center, Queens, to World Trade Center, Manhattan. Some rush hours trips to/from 179 Street/Jamaica, Queens.
[Nights] – All stops from Jamaica Center, Queens to World Trade Center, Manhattan.
H Train: Rockaway Park Shuttle
[All Times] – Shuttle service in Queens between Broad Channel and Rockaway Park/Beach 116 Street. Transfer to A and K at Broad Channel for service to/from Manhattan.
K Train: 8th Avenue Express
[Rush Hours only] – Express stops from Inwood/207 St, Manhattan, through Brooklyn, to Rockaway Park, Queens.
All other times: Use A C and H instead.
No, they should NEVER bring that Round Robin Shuttle back. The ride to Far Rockaway is long enough at night as it is with local service in all three boroughs.
After making all stops in Manhattan and Brooklyn, the last thing the Far Rockaway riders need is to have to get off at Euclid Ave. and wait for a shuttle that is almost never there and does not arrive for at least another 10 minutes, make an extra 7 stops to/from Rockaway Park-yes I said 7 stops. The shuttle stopped at all Rockaway Park Branch stops twice-once to RP, then again on its way to Far Rockaway, just to watch NOBODY get on or off at those stops. On top of that when it got to Rockaway Park, it sat there for another 5 to 10 minutes while the conductor and motorman engage in conversation over a cup of coffee.
That was an extra 25 to 35 minutes added on the commute.
It took the community over 40 years of campaigning with various governmental officials to get rid of this horrific service only to have it brought back. Oh I don't think so.
It does have the advantage of more JFK service. And the Lefferts changes balance out (more service, though local).
But it means more trains. My back of the envelope calculation is $1 million to extend the C to Lefferts and have all As go to the Rockaways non-rush hours. C to Lefferts adds 12 minutes to its schedule. A to Rocakways adds 18 minutes to half the A trains.
No need to change the rush hour schedule, since there are enough expresses to go all around, though I agree the Lefferts express should have a different name.
That's why the H's replacing the Lefferts A is the cheapest "quick" fix. Although a revsion could be to send the C to Lefferts, and get rid of the Rockaway Shuttle altogether. Add the former S trainsets to the A trainsets, and split the A service between Rockaway Park and Far Rockaway. At least this way all A service will serve JFK, so it will be easier for tourists. Any people going further that JFK-Howard Beach will probably be regulars, and they will know whether they need a Rockaway Park A or a Far Rockaway train.
When I first start posting on this board.. I suggested an "H" being created for 6th Avenue.. running.. on the F line.. To Leffets Blvd as the express.. But unfortuntely, not too many people like this idea.... And now we got a V line... But that could have been the H
N Bwy
Yeh look at the signs, but as i stated numerous times, You are coming from the end of the platform, akk see just A, run to the train, to find it is the wrong Southern Terminal. That is why Far Rockaway should B A- Rockaway Pk H and Lefferts K.
You haven't rode the Round Robin shuttle train, unlike I did.
To complete a standard trip from Euclid to RP, then to FR, then back to Euclid, takes over 1 hour. If you're lucky, you might get off at B. 90th St and crosssunder to another H train going to FR. Or if you started your trip at RP, then you can change at B. 67th St and crossunder to the Euclid bound shuttle. But how many times you were successful in getting a train ahead of the one you were on in the first place? VERY LITTLE. Dead-Robin should stay dead and never be revived, the late night A should run to FR directly, because that is the branch with the most customers.
I'm glad somebody on this board knows the real deal of the Round Robin Shuttle. Thank you.
Part of the reason lies in the timetable. An a train that leaves from Far Rock goes to 207 St. When it leaves 207, chances are that train is now going to Lefferts, necessitating changes to both end signs on an R44 and 20 side signs on an R38.
Uh uh.When A Far Rock or Lefferts train arrives at 207,they go back to Leffert's or Far Rock.They dont come from Far Rock then go back toward Lefferts.The schedule is set up so that if a train arrives at 207 from Lefferts or the Rockaway's then that's where they go back to.
They're not gonna waste time changing all the signs on an R38 to do that.
You're partially correct.
There's a saying at 207th Street: 44s go anywhere; 32s/38s go back where they came from. So most trains do go back to the south terminal they came from. But there are platform conductors at the terminal who change signs on SMEE equipment when it's necessary to do so, and sometimes they even ride the train out while changing them.
There wouldn't be any problem identifying the trains if some wise guy over 30 years ago starting with the slants decided not to have destinations on the end signs. Every train after the slants followed the lead then somebody had the great idea to take the destinations off the end signs of the 32's and 38's. In the good old days you knew where the train was going as it entered the station!!
Yes, the Vampire State has screwed us again, but at least with the $2.00 fare the subway will be profitable on an operating basis, with some of its capital costs covered as well. So it wouldn't be rational to reduce service, though the State of New York is far from rationale.
Just be glad you aren't the parent of a child in the NYC public schools. Or a bus rider.
Can anyone recommend the website locations for the New York City Transit subway add-ons for BVE? Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Hot Lunch!
here, excellent spot for NYCTA BVE
http://bve.w-train.com/
Queensbound:
Thank you!
I just downloaded BVE but it doesn't appear to have any pre loaded trains in it. How would I go about runing a train in this program?
http://bve.w-train.com/
Go there and download the routes, trains in their respective folder and that is it....
I've been thinking about the best route for the proposed #7 extension to the Far West Side. I understand the main goal is to serve the Javits Center and proposed sports stadium near it, as well as jump-start development elsewhere in the west 30s. I also hear there is sentiment for serving Penn Station, both to provide a 1-seat ride from Grand Central, and because the current use of the 1/2/3 lines to get to Penn would become less feasible once the Amtrak concourse is moved across 8th Avenue to the Farley Building. Someone recently posted that one way would be to run the 7 down 8th Ave and turn west at 34th to the Javits.
I think a much better way would be to run the 7 as a partial loop. This would go straight west on 42nd, with a stop at 10th, then turn south at the river (12th) with a station around 40th and 12th. This stop would serve many crowded venues -- the Intrepid, the Circle line pier, and the NY Waterway ferry terminal at 38th. Then you run the line down to 34th, turning east, with a station at 34th and 11th. This would serve Javits and the new stadium. Finally, continue across 34th to a terminus between 9th and 8th, serving the Amtrak station and the rest of Penn, with a transfer to the A/C/E at 8th and 34th.
The benefit is to cover all of the Far West Side from 42nd to 34th, several tourist attractions, and 2 commuter hubs, plus two separate transfers to existing lines. What do you think?
You could koop part of the Times Square platform this way as well.
Nice plan, but it has its glitches. The bumber block in the tunnel west of Times Square is at the same level as the lower unused platform at 42 Street- 8 Ave. To run along 12 Ave and turn east along 34 Street would be a construction nightmare. 1, the LIRR yards would be in the way. 2, the open cut which leads to the Hudson River tunnels and West Side line will also be in the way. 3, there would be no physical space to fit the 7 train in that area, even with a loop. Unless that lower level 42 St platform is permitted to be demolished, the 7 train is stuck terminating at Times Square.
Sorry Guy
Why wouldn't the lower level be abandonable (I'm not going to spellcheck that)?
I think there is a freight viaduct over the yards, running north-south, swinging wide to the west from the High Line.. Don't know if it makes things worse or better. Sounds like I got me a weekend project.
"The bumber block in the tunnel west of Times Square is at the same level as the lower unused platform at 42 Street- 8 Ave"
Not so. I did measurements and posted them here about 6 months ago. With a moderate downgrade west from the current station, the 7 could clear underneath the lower level of the 8th Ave line.
The bumber block in the tunnel west of Times Square is at the same level as the lower unused platform at 42 Street- 8 Ave
Not so. I did measurements and posted them here about 6 months ago. With a moderate downgrade west from the current station, the 7 could clear underneath the lower level of the 8th Ave line.
I once heard that there are underground fuel tanks at the PABT that would be smack in the way of a 7 line extension. If that's true, the tanks could add considerable time and expense to the completion of an extension.
It's possible the tanks are in the way, but since the new addition to the PABT is less than 30 years old, odds are the tanks themselves shouldn't be in that bad a condition for excavation and relocation if they were placed under what was formerly 41st Street (whatever tanks were built for the original PABT are probably right under the station itself).
To me, if there isn't a major problem with the tanks, the best route for the 7 would be west on 41st to Ninth Ave. before turning south, with a PABT stop on Ninth Ave. from between 40th and 41st streets down to 38th-39th, and the south on Ninth to 34th, turning west with a stop just north of Ninth Ave. for the Penn Station-Farley PO-Madison Square Garden area (not to mention B&H Camera, of course), and from there west on 34th with a stop centered right about 11th Ave. to serve the Javits Center and any possible Olympic Stadium that might be built if New York gets the 2012 games.
Bo-ring! Any route down 9th or 8th would just duplicate the service on 8th and do little to serve new areas.
But it avoids the up-down of going beneath the lower level of Eighth Ave and the PABT exit ramp at 41st and Ninth and then having to get over or under the Lincoln Tunnel tubes west of Ninth Ave. while at the same time not conflicting with the West Side Amtrak and freight lines leading north from Penn Station (put the 7 line's tunnel too low over at 11th Ave. to get beneath both the Lincoln Tunnel tubes and the rail lines and then you're below the Hudson River water table and you've got some serious waterproofing to deal with on the tunnels and station near Javits Center. Going down Ninth may be more boring but you aviod a few big obsticles by doing so).
The last I heard is one turn on 10th Avenue and straight down to a terminal at the yards, with no Penn Station connection. Cheap, but I don't like it.
My main goal would be to have the extension go elevated in the far west side to a loop terminal on the water side of West Street, adjacent to a series of ferry terminals. Extend the shuttle the other way, and you have a complete crosstown and a vast increase in the potential of ferry service.
If they could swing it (i.e -- get past the NIMBY court fights down at Foley Square), running it to the Javits Center by whatever route possible, and then elevating it for a run down 12th Ave.-West Street to the WTC area would be a relatively cheap way to provide subway/el service to the far west side of lower Manhattan, including Battery Park City and the long-planned Hudson River Park. If the line was run above West Street (with support columns in the center divider) the width of that avenue compaired to the width of a two-track elevated line would mean light would have room to get through on both sides of the street. Stops could be at the usual locations -- 23rd, 14th, Christopher, Canal, Chambers and Liberty Street, and ferry terminal could be set up at or near one or more of those stations.
Also, with the new methods of construction of el lines using concrete pillars and noise abatement techniques, the sounds of the trains would be far less obtrusive in the area than on other NYCT elevation lines, let alone the existing sounds of traffic starting and stopping at the traffic lights along West Street and 12th Ave.
If they could swing it (i.e -- get past the NIMBY court fights down at Foley Square), running it to the Javits Center by whatever route possible, and then elevating it for a run down 12th Ave.-West Street to the WTC area would be a relatively cheap way to provide subway/el service to the far west side of lower Manhattan, including Battery Park City and the long-planned Hudson River Park. If the line was run above West Street (with support columns in the center divider) the width of that avenue compaired to the width of a two-track elevated line would mean light would have room to get through on both sides of the street. Stops could be at the usual locations -- 23rd, 14th, Christopher, Canal, Chambers and Liberty Street, and ferry terminal could be set up at or near one or more of those stations.
Also, with the new methods of construction of el lines using concrete pillars and noise abatement techniques, the sounds of the trains would be far less obtrusive in the area than on other NYCT elevation lines, let alone the existing sounds of traffic starting and stopping at the traffic lights along West Street and 12th Ave.
A run down West Street would be a terrific idea, but I just don't see it happening as an elevated. Once you get south of the meat market district, there's a lot of upscale housing near and along West, with more being built. Those people aren't going to be very receptive to the idea of an elevated line, West Street's width and new construction techniques notwithstanding. Hudson River views undoubtedly are a big selling point for the upscale housing, and an el is going to interfere with those views at least to some extent.
The elevated ROW does not exist below approx. 13th St. It's that simple. Buildings have been built in the ROW.
I'm not talking about using the High Line -- there isn't enough money in the entire state budget to fight the NIMBY war the MTA would face to use that route -- I'm talking about an entirely new elevated line down down the middle of 12th Ave. and West Street from the westside rail yard to the WTC/Battery Park City area. That would give people living close to West St (or on the other side of it in the BPC area) direct access to both the west and east sides of midtown Manhattan and give some north-central Queens passengers a one-seat ride to Lower Manhattan.
Glad you cleared that up. If the 7 couldn't go past 8th, how could it go anywhere west?
Why not just move the Javitt's Center to Times Sq and construct the new sports stadium there? Problem solved! The "7" would go there with no line extension.
Badda Bing. we got us a plan over here.
I took this on Thursady from the 'Q' train on the Manhattan Bridge, tell me what you think.
It works in the preview
Very nice, thanks.
Peace,
ANDEE
Very artistic!
Great shot!
Something noticably missing......
But, Great shot!
That's a wonderful pic, Tony. You always seem to find the right touch in your pics.
Cool
Cool!!
Awesome! You take the best "would make great desktop wallpaper" photos I've ever seen!
Take Pride,
Brian
How on earth did you achieve such a crisp picture? My guess is that you went out onto the middle of 2 of the cars and snapped it, yes?
Not in an R-68. I had to look for a semi-clean spot in the window and take it, then set the focus to 7M (One of my camera settings) so I wouldnt catch the dirt on the window.
Great shot Tony. You lucked out when firing the camera and not having a steel column in the picture.
Bill "Newkirk"
This is a beautiful photo.
You should get paid to do this!
Yow!
Really nice-thanks, cat.
Nice shot Tony, I know Fred's N line cannot get a shot like this. For me, It's always a joy to ride the Brighton line over the bridge and take in the marvelous views of the East River.
Nah, THIS is the type of view you get from Freds train. (I'm gonna hear it now 8-))
Peace,
ANDEE
Geez Andee! That's the best view you can get of the Montague ratnnel on the M, N & R while the Q crossing on the Manny-B is 1000x cleaner and you get 24 hour views of the outdoor bridge crossing 8-). You know your gonna hear a response from Fred.
I can't wait.
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee, you made my day today, as well. Seriously we might hear the a live volcano has erupted in Southern California, and you sure taught us how to be a Liberal democrat. No wonder NYCT wants the N train in there for good, THOSE PESKY CRITTERS SHALL STAY IN THAT RAT HOLE, LONG LIVE THE MONTAGUE RAT-NNEL.
Very nice photo!
Thats a great shot!!!
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling Layout - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Of all the trains that have multiple terminals, which one do you think causes the most confusion. , , or <5>?
BTW does anyone know if the #3(238 St) caused any confusion earlier in the year at 135 St, or if the old C route to the Bronx caused a lot of confusion when it switched terminals from 168 St to Bedford Pk Blvd-200 St(or 145 St) different times of the day?
I meant diamonds A, E, and 5 with their multiple terminals
E train has no multiple terminals.
some E's go to 179 Street with the F
There are 4 or 5 Es a day to/from 179th. I rode one once from 34th to Lex. To make matters more confusing, the first 4 cars were signed Canal Street to 179th Street as Es, the next 4 were Canal to 179th as Fs, and the last 2 were Canal to Jamacia Center. The C/R did a good job of telling people it was an "E operating on the F route", but that didn't mean people weren't holding the doors trying to figure out where the train was going.
A few weeks ago, I tried to catch the first afternoon E to 179th for railfanning purposes. I missed it because each train I saw at WTC was signed as an E to Jamaica Center. Eventually I got on an E, took it to Roosevelt, and waited there for the relevant announcement. That train, too, was signed as an E to Jamaica Center.
But before Lex, shouldn't the C/R simply be announcing it as a Queens-bound E? Once in Queens, people going to Sutphin and Parsons can get off and wait for the next E.
I don't know if this has been posted here already but what are the times for the special E trains from WTC to 179 St? Thanx for your help.
Alex L. posted them a few weeks ago. I'll try to dig up his post, or maybe he'll see this.
Don't worry David I found it, thanks.
What are the times?Tell me please!I'm dying to know!
I think the A with its TWO full time south terms and a THIRD rush hour term. Also the E which in rush hours runs to/from either Jamaica Center OR 179th Street. The Q/Q service as shown on the map might be another candidate since both its round and diamond services run alongside each other in Bklyn, but with different routes and times of operation.
I meant diamonds A, E, and 5 with their multiple terminals
The A, for sure. The Lefferts/Far Rockaway/Rockaway Park issue is significant because you have a fair number of subway "neophytes" going in that direction thanks to the JFK connection. You'll probably see even more such confusion when (or should I say if) AirTrain opens due to greater volume.
Most of the people going to either end of the 5 are regular riders and therefore less likely to be confused. Same for the E, and in any event not too many trains go to 179th instead of Jamaica.
None of them give me confusion and BTW the E DOES NOT have a diamond or multiple terminals [179 St is a special so it doesn't count].
179 St does count as a multiple terminal, and this is often referred to as E diamond, just like the few A's that go to Rockaway Park, the few E's that go to 179 should be listed on the schedule and website as well(not just as "limited number of E trains go to Hillside" or something like that)
It is NOT on the E train timetable and it doesn't even say a limited # of trains go to 179 St; only says so on maps.
I said SHOULD be listed, not that it IS
Only in the MTA can they do things like this and 'get away' with it....
A train causes most confusion during rush hours with 3 southern terminals: Lefferts Blvd, Rockaway Park, and Far Rockaway-Mott Ave. Even on regular weekday/weekend service, passengers are still confused by which A train goes to JFK.
I gave up the A run to JFK for a faster route. 3 or 4 train to New Lots Ave, then transfer to B15 bus for JFK. Only one catch: there are two B15 services, one for JFK, and one for the Postal Facility. Gotta watch them signs. You kill 20 to 30 minutes off of your trip this way. The secret. B15 doesn't serve Long Term Parking. That PA shuttle bus litteraly stops everywhere.
I never had confusion with the IRT in the Bronx. Those redbirds said the destination clear as day. It's a little different with the R142. Have to see the side sign to know where the train is heading.
Is the transfer to the B15 safe with luggage? As I said a few weeks ago, I wouldn't mind transferring from the B15 to the 3, but I don't know if I'd want to wait on the street for a bus in that neighborhood. But perhaps my fears are unwarranted.
Doesn't the B15 to JFK run on 30-minute headways for much of the day? I think the PA shuttle bus runs more frequently, though perhaps not by much.
Please!!!
A lot of customers use the 3 train to the B15 bus connection. All "types" of customers. Dont worry about it. Trust me. And yes, these customers bring a small luggage with them. Use it. Its a good connection. The only thing is, as another poster mentioned, the JFK bound B15 bus comes about every 20-30 minutes depend on the time of day. If its late evening, the JFK bound B15 will serve both branches.
I rail/bus fan using this connection it is a nice ride. On the way back, I just took the B15 home. I thinking of doing it again in the future.
PS: There are some customers that use the L train to New Lots Ave to the B15 bus as well. But the 3 to New Lots is better since it is advertised.
As a side note (and I know it doesn't have a prayer of being done), it would be nice if the 3 train actually was extended to the Howard Beach station. Right now it just seems to end in the middle of no where (and even when the el was built it must've been in the middle of no where). It would be a great alternative for IRT users to get to JFK, instead of using their last chance to transfer at Broadway-Nassau Street to the Fulton Street subway.
They could even add an express track on the Livonia El (The line seems to be set up for that anyway, like the J).
As a side note (and I know it doesn't have a prayer of being done), it would be nice if the 3 train actually was extended to the Howard Beach station. Right now it just seems to end in the middle of no where (and even when the el was built it must've been in the middle of no where). It would be a great alternative for IRT users to get to JFK, instead of using their last chance to transfer at Broadway-Nassau Street to the Fulton Street subway.
They could even add an express track on the Livonia El (The line seems to be set up for that anyway, like the J).
Just to add to my above post:
In reference to the Express track I mentioned for the Livonia El, I would have the express track trains run towards the airport at all times. The 4 could be extended to Howard Beach, as well as the 3. Have one or the other run express towards the airport on the center track all times (all times that both the 3 and the 4 are serving the new Livonia El extension anyway). The reason I say always express towards the airport is because that is really where "time is of the essence" - getting to the airport. Leaving the airport, people's schedules are not quite as tight, because they are not trying to catch a train.
My last sentance should read, "becausre they are not trying to catch a PLANE", not "train".
My last sentence should read, "becausre they are not trying to catch a PLANE", not "train".
Since we don't ever see this happening, I could throw my opinion in on this.
It would probably have to be a flyover after Sutter Av then b/c of the turn at Saratoga Av, then it could descend into position as a regular 3rd track until just before New Lots Av, stop there then build a subway afterwards. It could run under Linden Blvd then S Conduit Av to JFK or it could have its own ROW. I agree on your plan to run either the 3 or 4 run express via the Livonia el [preferrably the 4] to the airport and should have its own station.
As long as we are on the pipe, from under Linden, run it through the Pitkin Yard through 76th St, Station , along the Pitkin Ave ROW and merge with the Rockaway Branch, flyover at Howard Beach and capture the Train To the Plane!!!!!
avid
What a great suggestion. Extend the 4 line! I'll remember that next time it takes me 1 hr and 15 mins to get from Woodlawn to New Lots, and I'll say to myself, "now if only they could make this run longer".
But, as mentioned a couple of times already, the last chance to get to JFK for IRT riders is to take the 3 train to New Lots Avenue and transfer to the B15 bus to JFK.
Yes I know, but I was talking as a sidenote to that topic about extending the Livonia El, to avoid a bus/train transfer.
And if you miss the B15 toward JFK, you have to wait 20-30 minute for the next one. By extending the IRT, it would avoid a bus/subway transfer and save plenty of time; its unlikely but hey we could always think about extensions.....
Thank you for the reassurance!
The B15 runs every 20-30 minutes to JFK all times except nights. There's nothing to fear David I've waited for buses there quite a few times after taking the 3, I'd be cautious if you were to travel in the nighttime though. There are two PA shuttles, A & B which is like every 15 minutes.
The loss of destination signs on bulkheads is a travesty. The R110B had an electronic bulkhead destination sign, but I'm disappointed the R142/143 didn't adopt them.
The R110B also had the colored bullets also. Much clearer to see. The R110 was an extremely attractive car and I feal a bit more functional because of just a simple rollsign, and destination bulkhead.
As far as the vandalized interior pics go, the first time I ever saw them was in the "Subway Art" book
Barnes and Noble carries it.
I'm almost certain there is close to no pictures of the interiors on the net though
Thanks, I have taken a look at this book, and was just looking for additional pictures.
Were you ever scared or apprehensive about railfanning in the late 70's and early 80's in the MTA? With the system looking the way it did, did it make you want to hold your camera a little tighter?
p.s. you handle is (1) South ferry (9) right?
Joe Testagrose isn't a Subtalk participant but you can email him via the Leave Feedback link.
1st South Ferry 1/9 is someone else. A young man that I've had the pleasure of his company on a couple of "Field Trips"
2nd I was in my late teens in the mid 60s when I started railfaning. One of those was Q cars on the Myrtle Ave before it came down. I also worked at Columbia Univ. for 11 1/2 years travling every day on the 1/9. Someone had something to say to me once eye ball to eye ball. The two keys are stay awake & watch what is going on ... recently a altercation broke out in Brooklyn IRT, you should have seen how fast the folks in that R-142 went for the double doors. Secondly, when Railfanning, do it with a group & you can go anywhere. Bring along a "Foamer" for extra insurance (I'm kidding).
Does anybody remember the cartoon display at the abandoned Myrtle Ave/Flatbush Ave. Station? What you did was look out the right-side (in the direction of travel) windows as the train passed through the station and you'd see a lighted cartoon sequence on the plat. I recall little red and blue "men" and a flaming rocket ship passing by my window. This was about 1980 or so, and I still look for it today. What happened to it, and no, I wasn't smoking any good weed...then or now. It really WAS there...
Vandals had destroyed it. It was on the old Myrtle Ave station in the Manhattan bound direction leading to the Manny B. I heard a rumor that it was going to be restored, but I haven't seen anything yet.
Yes, that was up for years. It was called Masstransiscope. I found a link to it over at Joe Brennan's site.
Mass transiscope
There was something like it on PATH that I noticed about a week ago. On the way back from Newark, there's a whole wall on the left between Journal Square and the tubes (I think) with a moving Christmas display.
That's cool! I never knew all that! Thanks. Anybody have any word on when it's going to be back up again?
I just found this report on the Masstransiscope. The future doesn't look good for it to be rehabilitated.
Masstransiscope
It was a fun little show. Have you or anyone else seen the PATH moving images??
Not yet. But rest assured I'm gonna. It will take me back.
All 2nd Ave subway stations will be equipped with moving images of this sort. Remember, you read it here first :)
--Mark
PATCO, down here in Philly, has had a subway animated ad for maybe 3 or 4 years now. The display is in the abandoned Franklin Square station, at first it was a Dasani water ad, and most recently it was a Discovery "Monster Garage" ad. Right now it's dark, but is still very visible, as the station is quite well lit despite it's disuse.
In the discussion on the moving image displays at Myrtle Ave, I stated incorrectly:
"There was something like it on PATH that I noticed about a week ago. On the way back from Newark, there's a whole wall on the left between Journal Square and the tubes (I think) with a moving Christmas display."
The other day I rode PATH back from Newark and couldn't find the display where I stated, but did see a rather long display between 14th Street and the abandoned station at 18th Street on the left side.
Going out there to see it this week. Thanks for the update!
While I was with friends the other day attending UCLA (University of the Corner of Livonia Avenue) I noticed that parallel to the L line there is freight trackage with about two centuries' worth of junk on it. Is this a part of NY&A or NYCHR? Also why was there never a free transfer from Junius St on the 3 to Livonia Ave. on the L? A pedestrian bridge connects Livonia Ave to the L line directly beneath the 3 el. The two stations are less than 200' apart.
While I was with friends the other day attending UCLA (University of the Corner of Livonia Avenue) I noticed that parallel to the L line there is freight trackage with about two centuries' worth of junk on it. Is this a part of NY&A or NYCHR?
It's part of NY&A, the line running out to Bay Ridge.
Heh heh, that "UCLA" part was funny.
LOL!
"While I was with friends the other day attending UCLA (University of the Corner of Livonia Avenue)"
And here I thought you were referring to the University on the Corner of Lexington Avenue. And don't forget CCNY (Christian College Now Yiddish).
Yeah, and I went to UNLV, too...University of NYC Lo-V's...LOL!
. . .is on tonight at 10:30 on Channel 13 in NY.
I missed it the first time. I'm tired, awake at 0430, up by 0510 to hit the road 0615 reading this and the TV blairs the program. Tomorrows assignment: changing out gear oil in 32 R142 gearboxes.
They still use rotary convertors in Grand Central. 'Tit job.'
CI Peter is OnTheJuice
GUARD YOUR EARS, Fellow Murricane!!!
....something about gearboxes and boom! sounds...
Use Gorman's Ear Guards
GUARD YOUR EARS with Gorman's
crud! I missed it!
That's what VCRs are for... I taped it :-)
And I wouldn't be here posting at this hour (I'd be sleeping) except that my younger daughter called from Virginia an hour ago, she got rear-ended by a drunk, he wasn't wearing his seat belt and was bleeding from hitting his face on the steering wheel so she went back to her car for some first aid stuff and he took off... police are now searching for him. Unfortunately she didn't get a tag number (she was more concerned about his injuries) but she does have a good description and there was enough debris left at the scene that the police have a tentative make and model on the car. But the most important thing is that she's OK. She had just left her brother's apartment and was headed back to her place in Maryland when it happened... she was there because my wife had stopped in for a few minutes on her drive from North Carolina to New Jersey (my wife prefers to drive at night) and, after all, it's always nice to see Mom.
But I've rambled enough... needed to tell someone, I guess, and the only one awake in this house besides me is the dog...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wasn't worth the mag tape...Grace of the Lord helps us all. Pushed my alarms to 0500. Unca Steve TrainDude says 'oil and brakes' is not so bad and that I may have found my nitche. TEN cars at 0700....gearbox oil changes to probably be done by myself. Buy stock in Texaco. I'm dead tired.
VOTE NO FOR RATIFICATON. CI peter
I recorded this program. Not a single piece of magnetic tape was used. Magnetic disk yes.
Mouse ...
I hope your daughter is OK. Sometimes the effects don't appear right away. And kudos to her for having the state of mind to be willing to tend to the injuries of the individual who caused the accident, who evidently is not worth it.
--Mark
Thanks Mark... I think she's OK, she said it was about as hard as the rear-ender she was in four years ago and she was OK in that one (although she had three passengers that first time and one of them did have some back problems afterwards). I'm just glad she drives a substantial car (2000 Taurus SEL), had she been with her boyfriend in his early '90s tin can Nissan Altima it would have been a lot worse.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No, if I had known, I would have recorded it using my new Realtek WinFast TV 2000 XP Deluxe tv tuner PCI card in my computer. Then I would have it saved digitally in case anyone wanted a copy. Oh well. I will catch it next time, hopefully.
---Brian
7848-49 being escorted out of East 180th St Yard with two diesels. Destination, 207th St Yard?
More Later....
-Stef
Locos 888 and 900 on the ends, awaiting the lineup at Jackson Av!
Failed attempt to get pix, oh well!
-Stef
Those were long goners. Weeks barge left 207 with fifty Redbird carbodies last week. Weeks crane barge is gone too. R9s have been doing service for so long....I'm the only CI at 239th to recognise the 'straight cut gear wizz.' Lots of good RotBirds left for decent work service. Check undercar for my marks: antenna, ground, WB2SGT callsign. I'm older than they but they'll be running the 600 VDC third rail long after my demise. CI peter
"7848-49 being escorted out of East 180th St Yard with two diesels. Destination, 207th St Yard?"
Perhaps destination I.R.M. ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Not that pair. Candidate for IRM could be 7926-27 at Concourse Yard (assuming all goes well). The pair is in good condition, and was painted not too long ago....
I found out that in order for a subway car to be reefed, it has to have a certain amount of metal content. In other words, they should last for many years under the water. Apparently, 7848-49 aren't Reef Worthy! Does traditional scrapping sound plausible?
Someone better take a trip down to SBK, there could be a few surprises waiting there....
-Stef
Scrapping involves mostly time and milage combined with major problems
not readily repairable during inspection or by the PM crew. Consider in a pair a truck with 19X1 wheels with thin flanges and an AC compressor motor with a burned commutator. One car is unsafe and the other does not have AC cooling. Swap trucks, replace group boxes and you have reliable work trains. EPs don't have AC cooling. CI peter
Maybe they'll become paperweights. :)
Why would some R-26's have more metal than others?
Because Bondo isn't metal :)
Heh. I'd be willing to bet that half the fleet is made of adobe. :)
Unlike the R-1/9s, BMT standards, and Triplexes. Steel, steel, and more steel.
When the boidies were hatched, there was plenty of steel there too. Alas, most of it is brown stains under the els these days. :)
You missed the point. I'm not talking about just R-26s, I'm talking about the fleet as a whole. I mentioned this particular pair because they have deteriorated to a point where the car's structural integrity might be compromised. The cars might not hold long in the water. If they don't meet EPA standards, chances are the cars won't get reefed.... If they can't be reefed, then some old fashioned scrapping would have to take place.
-Stef
Bondo!!!!
Uh huh. Very soon there will be more bondo than metal. Anyone ever hear of Play Doh?
-Stef
So I walk the inspection track banging my 'hello little fishies' tune on carbody and disturb resting CIs. Nothing like the solid clunk of Bondo or Playdoe smaking your knuckels (if you're not using steel pipe to bang out the tune.) Every hollow spot struck means a nice place for little fishies to nest in. Rust is good...especially R142 undercar. CI Peter
Too much Bondo, perhaps?
Owing to a severe Bondo (tm) shortage in the last few years trying to keep them boidies rolling, many have been carbodskied with ADOBE. Alas, many of them ended up outside during inclement weather, and you know what happens to mud when it gets wet. :)
I thought they were using papier-mache. :o)
wayne
Takes too damned long to "set" ... can't be tying up that many tracks and the current draw from all those hair dryers would only make the Hippos even slower. :)
You don't need much to slow down the Hippo's. However when everything is working right with those cars, they will move along. BTW, the amount of "Bondo" they would need to patch the holes in the remaining "Redbirds" would perhaps be enough to build a few subway cars out of "Bondo"
#3 West End Jeff
They weren't that sluggish on the D and Circle Q last October. I thought they moved pretty swiftly along Broadway and CPW. More so than the R-44s.
Very interesting. I always felt that the R-44s were on the sluggish side. Those cars feel like they're plodding along. Almost the same for the R-46s.
#3 West End Jeff
Actually, I was amused by all the complaining about the "hippos" here. Checked them out for myself and found them to be just as peppy as anything else on the rails. Only thing I noticed about them is that they're a lot smoother on the takeoff than the 46's were. But once up to speed, they weren't slow at all. So figured I'd apply the stereotype. You remember what happened when Unca Lou went for parallel on 1689 when W3 was moving and Nancy was pulling 6688 down the main. Current starvation, lights dimming out, Unca Lou deciding "fook it" and going into coast and applying until the lights brightened back up when the other trains stopped moving so we could go. :)
Reminded me of some bad days on the Brighton line with power dips.
That happened a few times on the mainline, too. Made for an interesting compressor sound.
What version of Photoshop was used on these Redbirds to make them look better? :)
--Mark
Well, barge left with 50 Redbird carbodies from 207th last week. Weeks crane barge left too. We in East 180th have a week of New Tech...wonder what is in store next week.
Now for the secret formula from one of my highly regarded supervisors
highly respected by the TrainDude: brush out all of the debris and rat shitz after chipping away the rust, stuff the hole with steel wool and swipe in the Bondo. Just hand me the RPG-7......'In the ho ho ho ho hole.' CI Peter
I understand that Twin Donuts (if hammered flush) will ALSO take red paint. :)
Someone better take a trip down to SBK, there could be a few surprises waiting there....
Actually, there were a couple of weeks ago. No R-26es, but an R-30 keeping the Q-cars company in the back, and one other surprise you'll have to ask Doug about off-list.
Eh? I'll e-mail him and get the juicy details....
-Stef
Bye Bye. I miss you already. :(
Take Pride,
Brian
"Bye Bye. I miss you already. :( "
Don't worry, Stef will post again soon..........
Are we ok here? Sniffing too much steel dust! Oh nooooooooooooo..............
-STEF
Don't crack wise with me...I'll do the wise cracking around here.
[4F15] Homer Vs. The 18th Amendment
Comic Book Guy (CBG) is accosted by Rex Banner
Rex Banner: Are you the Beer Baron?
CBG: Yes, but only by night. By day, I am a mild-
mannered reporter for a major metropolitan
newspaper.
Rex Banner: Don't crack wise with me tubby.
CBG: Tubby? Oh yes, tubby.
This afternoon I get on a Red line going towards Glenmont at White Flint. Operator comes over to close the doors and gives me the stare. I see her moving around a bit as the train drives itself to Grosvenor. For those of you who don't know, Grosvenor is the terminal for half the Red Line trains. They relay on a pocket track north of the station and we were heading south. A new operator boards at the south end of the arriving train on the north end and becomes the new operator. The old operator gets off and waits for the next train to terminate. At Grosvenor, I realize that between stations, the operator took one of the metal signs put in the front window to indicate what line the train is on (see picture below) and wedged it between the console and the windscreen to block my view of the entire console. As she went over to close the doors, she pointed out what she had done to the operator waiting to relay the next train. She then had him look through the first door to see what I was doing. Whole thing seemed to be to make fun of the fact I had positioned myself just to watch the train's operatoin. Didn't see if she removed it when I got off but she and her couleege apparently enjoyed the whole thing. I guess that is what I get for showing up an interval early, the operator who used to that run was a really good guy.
The metal plate I am referring to is in the center of the stormdoor. There is one for each line and they are double sided.
"A new operator boards at the south end of the arriving train on the north end and becomes the new operator. The old operator gets off and waits for the next train to terminate."
I'm confused. How can you board at the south end on the north end.
Michael
Washington, DC
I'm confused. How can you board at the south end on the north end
What WMATAGMOAGH is trying to say is
A new operator boards at the south end of a Red line train coming from DC and terminating at Grosvenor and becomes the new operator. The old operator gets off and waits for the next train to terminate.
Sorry about that, new look terrapin got the explanation right though. It was late...
The same thing happened to me, also on a Red Line train, this time going towards Silver Spring....In this case, it was the operators personal belongings that he placed on top of the seats against the front window. He had it piled so high that I couldn't see over it without standing on the seat. On an opposite note, during the same period, I boarded a Green Line train at Greenbelt with my kids (who are all born railfanners). When we boarded we were at the back of train and the cab door was only blocking the console, thereby you could sit in the TRUE back seats. When an operator came back to make sure all was turned off on the rear console, she almost asked us to move to shut the door completely, then she looked at the kids, and asked that we shut the door before we get off the train at our destination. In other words, she probably doesn't trust the general public, but she put a little trust in us....BRAVO!!
She was being very nice to you. I assume you did as she asked; it would be too bad if an employee were to be disciplined for bending the rules for a railfan.
Of course I did----I was grateful for her generosity towards my family and I, of course, I could see others frown though when I shut the door...I figured it wasn't my place to alter her request.
It may be that she was nervous because she didn't want you watching HER the whole trip. You may be right about her ant-railfan attitude; on the other hand, consider the possibility that it wasn't a railfan issue as much as a personal issue. If you were assigned to spend several hours operating machinery, you might or might not like to have somebody staring at you the whole time. It makes some people nervous. Bus drivers are used to it, but train operators typically have, and expect, a little more privacy.
On a locomotive-pulled train, the engineer has no railfans watching him/her at all if the loco is leading, unless that railfan was invited into the cab (and the FRA frowns on that, doesn't it?)
When I lived in the area served by WMATA, it was always the big mamma women operators who were the nastiest, most unfriendly and seemed to have the biggest attitudes. Never once had a problem asking a male operator about technical info, etc.
I find that to be true in NYC, as well. The small power goes strait to their heads.
Because their jobs are so unfurfilling probably the only joy they can derive for themselves is screwing people like yourself over. Maybe WAMTA should let them drive the trains manually again, give them something to take pride in.
Manual operation would make it worse for the operators since the trains wouldn't be operated in the same manner daily. Each operator is different so there would be more reason to stand up front and see the speed.
My comment implied that being "attendants" cause a general lack of job satisfaction due to monotony. If their jobs were more exciting (if they were allowed to go manual whenever they felt like it (like PATCO)) maybe they wouldn't need to get their jollies picking on railfans.
Why does York Street use the new-style IND tile, like at the Pitkin stations?
It's not exactly the same. York tiles are staggered (like regular bricks) while the later 1948 style is barnstock (like other tiles, each right over the other. Also, columns are round, not square.
I guess in that station, they opted for a different design. (I always thought it was interesting. Kind of like a castle design).
But why York of all stops?
I always wondered that myself. I guess no one knows the answer.
And what are those cylindrical things with tiles on the platforms?
www.forgotten-ny.com
joe Cunningham thinks they are supports for the Manhattan bridge.
I finally got through all of the photos I took at Queensboro Plaza. Almost all of the below were taken from the parking deck, and the ones in the album called "Queensboro Plaza" just include the station in the photo. The rest are close ups of subways passing on the tracks to the "east" (compass) of the station. Enjoy!
---Brian
01/14/2003
03 AMTRAK (Page 1)
09 LIRR (Page 4+)
07 NJ Transit (Page 1)
15 Queensboro Plaza (Page 1+)
03 R-32 (Page 1)
01 R-33WF (Page 1)
24 R-36WF (Page 3+)
19 R-40 (Page 4+)
09 R-40M (Page 2+)
03 R-42 (Page 2)
19 R-62A (Page 9+)
19 R-68 (Page 7+)
Total: 131 Photos
Take Pride,
Brian
VERY cool pix.
Those new Comet V Cars are beautiful!! They look like the Acela Express Cars and the new LIRR M7 Cars.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling Layout - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Ok, well I agree with you that they look like the new M-7 cars, but not the Acela Express cars.
---Brian
while we're on the topic of Graffitti and the return of old times, how about this pic:
What's with this logo? It was on an R-40 Q train that I was on last week, and I noticed it when I got off at Times Sq. I thought this logo was a thing of the past, but apparently not. Unfortunately, I didn't remember to write down the car number, and the other shot I took was while the train was in motion, and the motion makes it too blurry to make out the number.
Just needs a good wash, not quite back to the 70's yet. : )
Ah but did you check to see that the map was updated version 1147?
Your 233KB pic doesn't scare me. But it could scare others. Just a suggestion: you can use a great freeware graphic viewer called Irfanview to make your photos smaller before you post them online. Anyhow, about the photo, yeah, there are a few cars in the system that still display that logo.
---Brian
Most, if not all, R-32/38/40/42/44/46/62/62A/68/68As still have that logo. They merely pasted a decal with the new logo over the old one. The car in the pictures decal probabaly just came off.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, many times you can sort of see the old logo under the decal.
Take Pride,
Brian
Especially on the R-62/68s.
Peace,
ANDEE
A few R-44's had the old logo removed and replaced with a large rectangular panel with the new one.
True, that's why I said most. I haven't seen one of those 44s in a while. I think they look the worst of the new logos.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, I know it looks so ugly. I think there's two sets [possibly more], I know of 5238-5239-5241-5240 but I forgot the other one.
Guess the budget deficitdidn't allow the MTAto finish putting the new decals on the cars ;-). All jokes aside, there are cars of all classes that still have the old two tone blue "M" logo. This logo is more attractive than the new one IMO but we had the current one since 1994 & they probably don't want to relive all the old memories with this logo.
Someone must have realized that it looks a lot better than the logo they're currently using...
-Robert King
I can never get over the fact that, in '94, they gave a consulting firm approx. $6M for that stupid looking logo they use now. Idiots.
Peace,
ANDEE
I HATE the newer logo, it looks sort of 'cheap' you know what I mean?
Friggin' backwards pacman. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I agree, the backward Pacman logo is so plain & dull & they spent $6M just for a damn logo change. The MTA=Money Thrown Away, the two tone "M" was the best logo they ever had. Honorable mention is the logo seen on the R38's.
That may have been the MTA's best logo, but nothing beats the old orange and black interlocking ta.
I thought it the interlocking TA logo was red & blue.
My opinion is that the old two tone"M" should have stayed.
They still have some of those logo's on the R-32's on the A and C Lines. As a Matter of Fact I saw one today Manhattan Bound on the C Line, but I was going Queens Bound and couldn't get the number.
-AcelaExpress2005
You might be talking about R32 3835. Also saw the two tone "M" on R38's 4038-4039 recently.
probably
Is that the big deal? Hmm...
I've seen it sveeral times on many different stocks throughout the system. I think the MTA simply doesn't care. Besides, the current logo is so much more uglier.
I was just told that there is very little, or no chance that I'll be able to pick into the B division next pick. I'm in the A, and I'm miserable. In fact, I was told that I'll most likely be in the A division until Spring 2004 pick.
I hate the 4 line with a passion. The 3 and 5 lines are not much better. When Subtalker ALEX singled out the 4 line on his website, I didn't understand why until I got this job. Imagine, 3 trips from Woodlawn to Brooklyn(Two to Utica, one to New Lots). Imagine working the 5 line, on a job that starts in Brooklyn and finishes at Dyre, and the dispatcher then wants you for OT to layup your train at E.180.
Imagine being late for work because of traffic on the Bronx River PKWY even though you leave home 1hr, 15mins before sign-on time.
Only good thing in all this, is that I think I've figured out a way to alleviate some of the overcrowding on the 6 line. That is the one line that interests me the most. I've also figured out how to cut personnel on the 5 line by about 2-3%. You'll learn these things when you've worked almost every job in the A division.
But these things won't help me get to the B division-where I truly belong. There's just something about the B division. It has a certain charm to it. The Sea Beach Line. The Brighton Line. The Culver Line. The Rockaway Line. The West End Line. And don't forget the outdoor runs from Essex to Jamaica and Metropolitan. The streamlined express stops of the IND. I can go on and on, but instead I'll save it for the crew room. Honestly, at the end of the day, I thank God that I have this job, and realize how fortunate I am.
I have a great job, where I work with great people, and I'm making a small fortune doing so. Hope to see some of you guys on my train soon.
Hey, speaking as a regular at Grand Central, you're badly neede and highly appreciated. Hang in there.
The Jerome El isn't enough daylight time for you? I'm kind of fond of it, though I have to use the Grand Concourse -- sorry.
Im sorry to hear this, Luch. I know you was looking forward to "crossover". Anyhow, I guess u heard about the 40+ C/Rs that crossed over to the B divison. Some volunteered, most didnt. Im staying in the A for now. But Ill have a couple of people here on the board who's trying to convince me to crossover to the B divison. In due time, my friends. In due time..........
I heard about those conductors. I know one who lives in Glendale, and was so happy about being transfered. He'll now have more time to be with his family.
You should just make the move now. You have until Friday to put in your G-2. You have nothing to lose. And if you don't like anything that you see available, just stay where you are.
I was thinking about switching over to see the other side but the IRT is my home and I don't think I could leave. Also one of my T/O's came from B Div. and talked me out of going.
I don't think I would have any problems but I would feel like a fish out of water. Some of the lines I was thinking about where the A,C,L,N,W Lines.
Luch, Hang in there maybe you will get lucky and pick something next pick.
It just does not make much sense for you to leave the A divison. Considering where you live, and how you commute, the A division terminals are still the best for you.
Have you ever done the #5 or #3 line to E 238 St (or the 8:59 Utica the legendary #5 train)?
Why drive if you can use NYCT for free? you might be excused for lateness if there is a problem with the bus/train
I use the trains to get to/from work. But not always. Imagine this:
You're one board at Mott with a 4pm report, and they tell you to pick up a job at Van Cortlandt, which finishes at 145am. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have my car waiting for me at that time, as opposed to taking the subway all the way to Queens.
I use to have one of those round trippers from Dyre to Utica.
The one that I am talking about comes for 241 Street (as a #2) and goes to Utica(or New Lots) then comes out of Utica(or New Lots) as a #5 to 238 St running local in the Bronx.
Do you know if this train was ever affected by G.O.s?
The one that I am talking about comes for 241 Street (as a #2) and goes to Utica(or New Lots) then comes out of Utica(or New Lots) as a #5 to 238 St running local in the Bronx.
Do you know if this train was ever affected by G.O.s(on the WPR line)?
By Rockaway line, do you mean (S) or (A)? because the A line is longer than the (4) line especially at night.
He probably meant the Fulton line & of course he's talking about the A. It is longer than ANY other route in the whole system!
Is the DC spring fantrip still on? You haven't said much about it since the topic was brought up awhile back. I'd still like to go if it is still on.
April 5 most likely since no one had sent any objections. I hope to get more info out in the next week or two.
What was the color of the IND tile band at the BMT stations tiled in the IND fashion?
Eight Ave on the LL was dark blue, and I'm positive that Fulton and Broad were a dark maroon color.
You are right, except Broad was yellow (with I think orange highlights in the mosaic).
Eighth Ave on the LL was dark blue, and I'm positive that Fulton and Broad were a dark maroon color.
I suppose that this is 20 or 30 years late in asking, but I was wondering why they never put hand holds between the non slanted ends in the r40's? I noticed that they have them in the modified cars.
Walking between non slanted cars seems more dangerous than the slanted ends. At least they have some extra bars that enclose you.
When they designed the R40s they kind of had their heads in the clouds--they didn't think about some things. I don't even recall that they didn't have handholds between the non-slant ends.
But I don't think it was more dangeous walking between the non-slant ends. I recall the first time I walked through the ends on an R40. Even for a young guy, it was an unsettling experience on a moving train.. I'm amazed they didn't lock the doors on them.
Paul. I think there was a period when the doors were locked between pairs of slants. The original design between pairs was really scary. I think they added extra metal after one or two people fell to the tracks.
(Hey)Paul. When they first came out, the doors weren't locked. I don't recall whether they then locked them during the interim period before they installed the extra metal and the pants, but it makes sense.
Back in that era, regular railroad trains had their doors open when entering and leaving a station, so theose who felt nimble enough could get on and off a moving train. I once ran for a Pennsy train at Newark Penn and when I swung aboard I really got slammed against the bulkhead. But that wasn't scary--walking between the Slant R40s was scary--how could the designers not have forseen that?
(Just)Paul... I guess they were going for the appearance of the cars when they designed them with so little hardware... I think Raymond Loewy had a hand in designing the cars...
I've grown very fond of the design though... I want to take some shots of the slant ends... the lines and curves are so different...
Paul (w/the hey): I believe two different vendors were supposed to do the slant R-40 cars in HO. MTS was going to produce a two-car set in brass (might be due out shortly) and Mike Bartel was to release a white-metal (diecast) kit of the slants.
Really don't know the status of either at this point.
The R40s with the slop ends[slants] running the rails today ARE NOT the cars that Raymond Loewy designed.What he envisioned,were beautiful, streamlined,state of the art cars with passenger comforts simular to the BART cars.... He even produced a model, showing his vision.Recessed lighting,different wall pannels and even A.C. The only flaw was the seating.. The cars were to be produced in five car sets to limit the gap[from five to one] at the sloped ends. After ST LOUIS CAR and the T.A got finished with[it's amazing how much the R44 ''PRODUCED''actually looks like the R44 ON PAPER]it,what rolled into the stations LOOKED NOTHING LIKE WHAT WAS ACTUALLY DESIGNED!!!Mr Loewy,himself,was shocked,at the production model.....not to mention the folk whom were involved with the project from the begining.... it seems to me that St Louis car didn;t know how to build a car to match this mans work,and the T.A wasnt quiet ready for such a radical depature form the norm... just yet. Moving cattle cars was the word of the times,and ''we'' didn't need anything so nice to get from point a to point b....so the R40's turned out to be a rehashed 38 with a different end bonnet. What happened to the R44 contract? Sunberg did a bang up job ''designing them,and they ''look'' like the way they were suppose to be... so what happen to the R40's?
Thanks for the info on the design history of the R40's. Do you have any pictures of the original design of 5 car sets?
like most of my transit stuff,it was lost in my move to the hills of the Capitol District of N.Y. I'm still serching to find replacements...8^(
Yes, I've seen a photo of Loewy's original R-40 design. Like you said, it was even more streamlined ala the BART cars.
and it was one beautiful piece of design work,I might add.It's a shame the T.A. didn't like it enough,to build it ''as is''.The modification were horrorable,and the end results looked nothing like any of the design drawings.Did the T.A. back off at the last minute,and change it because of it was too ''futuristic''? Or was there some other reason? This question has been buggin' me for 25 years or so...... anybody with answers,you are very much welcomed to toss em' my way.Also,why did the R44 CARS match speces almost to a ''tee'',and still fell apart in service,while the 40's didn't?
"Also,why did the R44 CARS match speces almost to a ''tee'',and still fell apart in service,while the 40's didn't?"
Well, let's not get carried away here.
The R44 did not fall apart in service. What it really did do was show the TA that it had ordered "too much, too soon." The subway car was well designed and well built by St. Louis for a subway line that did not yet exist. It also introduced a number of new technologies that TA crews were not prepared to deal with.
The p-wire and other stuff were not used because the Second Av subway they were tp be used on did not exist; there was an issue with a malfunctioning hydraulic brake; this was solved by replacement with a WABCO air brake system. The TA decided to group the cars into sets instead of individually coupling them (they came with couplers originally) to improve yard logistics.
Otherwise, the cars have performed very well in service, as have their cousins, the R-46, after the Rockwell trucks were replaced with conventional trucks. It turns out that having fewer total loading doors is a minus (and the result? The new R143 is a 60 foot car which will run in trains of 10), but that's not the manufacturer's fault.
The passengers responded well to these cars (and that's infinitely more important than what a "railfan" thinks, frankly), and after a period of appropriate and not unreasonable adjustment, the TA shops got along well enough with them, too. Ultimately, that spoke for itself.
Subtalk is populated by folks who often romantically remembers cars like the R9's while poo-pooing any equipment assembled and built after the last Ice Age, and who often take a very hard stance with regard to modern subway cars - I have to wonder how many would have actually made any better decisions if they were in the decision-makers' shoes. My guess is, not many. It's easy to throw rocks from a Subtalk armchair, and much harder to actually be in the cab accepting responsibility for decisions.
The P-Wire braking system was used on the R-44 and R-46 cars for many years (1971-ca. 1985 for the R-44, 1975-ca. 1989 for the R-46). It proved difficult for NYCT to keep working (though LIRR and Metro-North continue to use it to this day) and was eventually replaced with something akin to the braking systems on other cars being built or overhauled around the time the R-44 and R-46 cars were overhauled (though the R-44 got its new air brakes pre-overhaul). As for the ABEX hydraulic brake R-44s, there were very few of them and the experiment didn't last long.
Before overhaul, the R-44 was a basket case. Since overhaul, the cars are hardly the stars of the fleet, though they're much more reliable than they were pre-overhaul.
David
The 44's were an operators headache...my father told me just before he ''retired''so to speak...he left the T.A IN 72[the 44 was on site in 1970,sent back because of framing problems=20 cars mind you,and returned a year later for testing].he told me a story once.. of how these cars would power up by themselves,and you would have to set the emergency break on them in the yards so they wouldnt ''wander around'',how they would catch fire for no apparent reason after layup... how the cars would just catch headaches \,and would not move!!! how the they would go BIE,FOR NO REASON WHAT SO EVER,and they would have to call out a tow with a ''special coppler'' to move it out the way. I'm not sayin' I don't like the 44's,I DID LIKE THEM VERY MUCH... I had never seen a train like em' before...my point was,How did 44 car order match specs... from design to production[minus a few thing the planners wanted,but didnt get]and the 40's didn't? I still waiting for that answer,fella's[and ladies]
I came on the system myself in 1970, and after putting in my time as a conductor and moving up front, the 44's were largely assigned to folks with some seniority given their tendency to do strange things. Those were some of the reasons explained, also problems with wheel drags and brake drags that you had to listen for.
Didn't bother me any though, ensured I got Arnines to play with just about every day. :)
oh,and the R143's will run in ''8'' car train sets due to the fact they are Eastern Division cars.....the R160's,on the other hand will be shared[I suppose,having 4 and 5 car sets.] My intrest in the system,true does come from a ''railfan''prospective,and some knowledge past on from my father... He ran trains on the ''Sea Beach''for years as an Condutor/Operater with trips on other lines also.He was there when [due to his ethnic background]he wasn't readly accepted,and expected to ''go somewhere else''. So I'm basically taking second hand knowledge and presenting it here,with ''hands on'' from my ''POP'S''. This one's for you,Ron...just so you will know I'm not blowing smoke up your....well you know what I mean...8^)
Yes, the R44s turned out to be pretty reliable body shells.
Just about everything else has been replaced
Ironic! If I understand you correctly, Loewy wanted a five car set with a slant at each end and three non-slant cars in between.
I have long wished for, and advovated breaking marrigages of R/40 and R/40Ms and changing partners. It might have been necessary to break a few r/42s to complete the arrangement.
I think they would make a fine presentation. This should hve been done during THE GREAT GO. when they would have been broken anyway.
This would only give give four car sets. So maybe some R/r2s could be retained to create a six car streamline set.
On the Eastern Div eight car sets would fit the bill nicely! Don't you think?
avid
Brain Cudahy has some amusing words on the design of the slants in Under the Sidewalks of New York, together with photos of the original design concept (with no hardware of any sort on the ends), the early state with just small handholds, and the current situation.
Oops - a brain he probably is, but his name is Brian! Sorry.
Same thing we do every night Pinky, try to TAKE OVER THE WORLD.
I think the idea was that passengers are not supposed to walk from car to car while the train is moving. I never did it in all the years I rode the transit system, and if I had, I would have done it only when the train was stationary.
In my honest opinion, just speaking for myself, if you walk from car to car while the train is in motion, you deserve whatever happens to you.
Can't agree with you, Ron. The doors were left unlocked specifically so you could walk from car to car. It was that way since elevated days and remained the same when subway trains were introduced. Where it was felt to be unsafe (BMT Standards and Triplexes) the doors were locked.
You might just as well say that they shouldn't have side doors. People shouldn't be leaning on the doors, so if they go tumbling out, it's their fault.
"The doors were left unlocked specifically so you could walk from car to car"
Doesn't mean you have to do it while the train is moving.
"You might just as well say that they shouldn't have side doors. People shouldn't be leaning on the doors, so if they go tumbling out, it's their fault. "
It is. There's a reason why the TA puts a sign on passenger does, "Please do not lean against the doors." That's also something I have never had to do.
"It was that way since elevated days and remained the same when subway trains were introduced."
And public safety on publif conveyances was a lot worse back then. Just because my great-grandfather did risky things doesn't mean I have to do it.
Or, if I decide to be stupid, despite the availability of safer courses of actions, I need to accept responsibility for what I do. Do you believe that should be somebody else' fault?
Do you generally feel that businesses have no ordinary duty to prevent people from doing dangerous things?
For all that people like to say "Caveat Emptor" I was taught in Business Law that this is rarely true, even in the relatively non-litigeous era in which I grew up.
Ordinary people are not considered competant to make judgments which require some special knowledge. When you buy a TV set, you are not expected to test it thoroughly before purchase. Despite attempts to say otherwise by some medical insurance companies, the average person who shows up at an emergency room is not expected to know whether he is having a heart attack or a really bad bout of indigestion.
The liability of an ordinary person to judge the safety of an act is based on what an ordinary person is expected to know. When doors are left unlocked between railway cars and signs warn "Do Not Ride or Stand Between Cars" the ordinary person may be expected to assume that, with ordinary caution, it is safe to pass between the cars.
If it is unsafe to do so, it is incumbent to lock the doors, which is what the BRT did when it learned that passage between BRT Standards was unsafe.
"The liability of an ordinary person to judge the safety of an act is based on what an ordinary person is expected to know. When doors are left unlocked between railway cars and signs warn "Do Not Ride or Stand Between Cars" the ordinary person may be expected to assume that, with ordinary caution, it is safe to pass between the cars. "
So what's wrong with allowing people to do it at their own risk?
Passenger side doors are locked while the train ismoving, and there is a sign stating "Do Not Lean On the Doors." If you lean on the door anyway and manage to force it open somehow, should your demise be the TA's fault?
Theoretically, it should be possible to run subway trains with no side doors at all - just openings marked "Exit," so long as you didn't have a rush load of people and you could absolutely rely on people to stay seated or use handholds and not stick their heads or limbs out of the openings.
So what's wrong with allowing people to do it at their own risk?
I haven't see any signs on the subway saying "Pass Through Cars at Your Own Risk." Have you?
And even so, operators of public accomodations are expected to take what are considered ordinary precautions to avoid danger. Amusement rides have long had signs "Ride at Your Own Risk." These signs are meaningless if there is any negligence.
What standard would you use to determine a lack of corporate liability? The RonInBayside standard? :) RIB is smart to know that passing between moving railroad cars is so dangerous you shouldn't do it. Apparently the MTA doesn't agree or they would prohibit the act. If they did agree that it was that dangerous and didn't lock the doors it would increase their potential liability.
And who says the RIB standard is strict enough. The DOM (Dear Old Mother) standard says "Don't ride in the first or last car of a train in case there's a crash." My DOM believed in that as gospel. So if I get killed foaming at the front window, I should have known better?
The frontiers are endless. Anybody in an airplane knows that it's dangerous. If you fly too close to the sun, your wings will melt! ;-)
Official Quote From MTA's Website:
"In Subway Cars
Boarding between subway cars may seem like a time-saver, but it is highly dangerous. It’s also dangerous to try to keep subway doors from closing when you are entering or exiting the train. They are not like elevator doors and will not reopen automatically. In addition, make sure that pocketbooks, knapsacks, clothing, packages, umbrellas, and other personal items are clear of the closing doors. When you’re inside a moving train, never ride between cars or lean against doors. When you are standing, always hold on."
That information is also available on printed handouts. It's not such a stretch to imagine that passing between moving subway cars can qualify as "riding" between the cars (of course, I will concede that the less time you spend between cars, the lower your probability of injury, in general. But you can be taken by surprise).
"And even so, operators of public accomodations are expected to take what are considered ordinary precautions to avoid danger. Amusement rides have long had signs "Ride at Your Own Risk." These signs are meaningless if there is any negligence"
Agreed. But so long as the T/O observes speed limits and signals, accelerates and decelerates according to the rules, and the conductor operates the doors and follows other procedures accordingly, there is no negligence unless those rules themselves are faulty.
Let's try two examples:
1) Suppose there is a GO in effect on the 7 line, requiring trains to switch to the express track from the local track, which would be under repair. Suppose further that this GO was advertised on MTA's website and posters were put up at 7 line stations.
If some rider decides to leave his subway car at the time that the train was entering the switch, and the sideways motion caused him to fall and be injured (you can be injured even if you don't fall to the tracks and get run over or electrocuted), how guilty is the TA in this?
2) The Red Line MBTA train at Harvard Square makes a very sharp turn to enter/exit the station. I mean really sharp. You can hear the wheels screaming in pain. What if a rider took a fall there because he decides to leave the subway car and loses his balance?
(This example could also apply to SEPTA's Broad Street Line entering or exiting north of City Hall station. And the Kawasaki cars' end doors are unlocked).
I want to be at the neglience trial where the MTA cites information on their website as fair warning of the hazards of subway riding. "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, John Doe knowingly and willfully passed between cars without consulting http://www.mta.info first in order to be informed of the dangers of doing so."
And what exactly are we arguing? You seem to be saying that walking between cars is so dangerous that we shouldn't do it. You are further saying that if you do it anyway, whatever happens is your fault.
I'm arguing that if you are right, the doors should be locked. If the doors are not locked, and considering that the MTA is well aware that people pass between cars regularly, and that there is no stated prohibition where the user can reasonably be made aware of it (there's none of the website either, for that matter) then they are in effect warranting that a reasonably careful person can expect to pass between cars without danger to life and limb.
I still want to know why there is no hand holds between cars of a married pair. They have them on the 42's, how much of an expense would it be to put them on the unmodified slants??
The way the carbody is shaped (it is rounded) at the blind end of the R40 they can't secure the handhold to anything. Apparently there's something to bolt them onto on the R42s.
wayne
Wayne, you are correct. The fiberglass ends of the R-40M's make it nearly impossible (if impossible) to attached a solid steel grab iron (or anything else) to it w/o substantial modification.
That's my guess as to why the cars when without handholds (grab irons) on the ends.
Wayne. Are you saying that the blind end of the 40's is different from the 42's??
There are subtle and distinct differences between the two (R40M/R42) carbodies. Some of the problems that cropped up with the R40/R40M cars were solved with the R42 order; my guess is that the lack of handholds/grab irons was one of them.
wayne
"Some of the problems that cropped up with the R40/R40M cars were solved with the R42 order; my guess is that the lack of handholds/grab irons was one of them."
Wayne... But they did modify the slants, putting on the extra railing and gates from the R9's. Maybe the handholds between married pairs has never been seen as a problem.
When I worked the railroad, I could SWEAR there were chainsets between the blind ends, terminating in chain holders right at the doorlines on those. Never ran a 40, though I heard from folks in Queens division that they were pretty neat to run. In MY day, they ONLY ran on the E and the F and they were FOUGHT over because they were creampuffs to run compared to 38's, 9's and 44's. But I can SWEAR that when I got my orientation in school car that they had three horizonatl chains mounted to the bulkhead between cars on each side, PERMANENTLY fixed in place - in other words, you couldn't "open" them.
Must be wrong, but that's how I remember them ... and I came in AFTER the jungle gyms on the front of the slants ...
Kevin... I was just looking through the R40 slides in the archives here. It's a wonderful collection of pictures. It looks like there were chainsets across the blind ends of the cars.
Three slides that I really liked are
R9 & R40 in Station
Really Weird Mix of Equipment
Nice Underground Station Shot
MOO, brother! Yeah, looked at ALL of the R40 shots, looking for what I was looking for, yeah, the twin chains on the OUTER carbody were thre, that's a given, but was HOPING to find a shot of the details of what was chained on the doorframes, like on the Arnines ... I REMEMBER there being six horizontal chains, 3 on either side of the doorframes, but WITHOUT the vertical members midway like on the Arnines ... CHEEZY, but present ... NOTHING showed in any of the photos.
As a tekkie, I'm kinda disappointed in railfan photos at times ... seems a captivation with the "art" of shotting a train pic, rather than shots that are of TECHNICAL value ... undersides, details of the tripcock placements, chain positions, number of rivets around a rollsign, stuff like that which appeases TEKKIES ... I'm not complaining about people loving their ART mind ya, but it sure would be nice to have some technical shots of the trains, like battery boxes, grids, shoes, closeups of door controls, train stands, that kinda stuff.
Just me, mind ya, but the BEST parts of trains were in the cabs, and UNDERNEATH the cars. Subway trucks are highly variant in design, and yet for all the photos in the R40 section fer'instance, I don't see sections devoted to the various TRUCKS and SHOE BEAMS and CURRENT COLLECTORS and anticlimbers, and couple heads and stuff like that. Things that mattered to the official gearheads ...
Don't mind me, the tired old usual "perspective shot" of 10 cars headed into X station seems to be the old dead horse ... be nice to see some boring, intricate details of things ... but that's just me. Trippers and electrical portions are probably about as exciting as a medical shave to many. :)
Joe Korman had a WONDERFUL GIF animation of how SMEE braking worked (right down to cylinders moving) until Ash-hole apparently made him take them all down because them zany towel-heads might steal a redbird and demand that Mister Green give up the cutting key or something ... so MANY wonderful technical things about subway cars that no longer run, so many nonexistent bits about how subway trains work that would TRULY amuse subtalkers, and get us off 76th Street, Hoe Bruno (until January 29 when HIS budget comes out) and a raft of other tedium that obscures the details of HOW the subway's nuts and bolts all come toghether to GET you there, even if the tech details go back to standards, Arnines and Triplexes, all safe from Ashcroft because no dang terrorist could FIND one (heh) ... now wouldn't THAT be SUBTALK!
Lawsy, how I miss the NUTS AND BOLTS, and the WAR STORIES ... that's all I was ever into, that's why I *live* here, and why I *love* this place ... ain't no sex to nuts and bolts, wiring, "get this pig to the other end of the railroad" and so many other simple stories of fact, not requiring conjecture. Yeah, I gotta check myself for brain damage ... otherwise, nighty-night, WAY too many hours, and on my birthday which I spent 28 hours at work instead of "celebrating" ... even RTO usually gives you your birthday off ...
BY THE WAY, Unca Paul! THANKS for the videotape TREATS! Watched more earlier "tonight" ... EXTREME THANKS!!!
Reminds me of a chant we used to say in marching band at football games:
Nuts and bolts! Nuts and bolts! Boy, did we get screwed!
I think the shot of the R/32,R/40 and R/42 are great.
avid
avid... do you remember seeing trains with that many different car types?
Only on the IRT when R/12,R/14 R/15 and R/17 were mixed.
Can't produe pix though.
avid
It wasn't that big a deal on the IRT because everything from the R-17s thru the mainline R-36s looked very much alike. Of course, an R-12 or R-14 thrown in stuck out like a sore thumb. On the IND and BMT, the SMEEs all looked different, so when you threw them together in one consist, it just looked weird. OK, the R-16s blended well with the R-27/30s; the R-32s and R-38s looked OK together, and the R-40Ms and R-42s look almost the same.
For the record, the only mixed consists I ever saw on the IND during that period were R-32s and R-42s intermixed on the D. Drove me nuts. Luckily I never saw the R-10s in a smorgasbord train because if I had, I would have had a stroke. And please don't post that pic, either!!!
Looks like an R-1 or R-4 is the lead motor on that prewar F train, judging from the single large storm door window.
I remember those smorgasbord trains - eeeewwwwwwwwwww!!
That big F is how I remember the slants when I first saw them - only I didn't notice the F! I was so focused on looking above the storm door for the signs that I didn't see the huge magenta F until my mother pointed it out. My sister liked the slants, and she isn't even a subway enthusiast.
Seems your memory is correct. HERE'S PROFF
Peace,
ANDEE
Gotham Turnstiles has that very picture.
RTO may not see it as a problem, but you won't catch me crossing between blind ends of any Slant or 40M while it's moving. There are chains there, but you really can't grab onto them since they move and swing with the motion of the train. The "A" ends, with their big grab bars and stanchions are another story, much safer to negotiate.
wayne
There is no prohibition against passing between cars while
the train is in motion on the NYCT system. Riding between
cars and attempting to board through other than the side doors
is specifically outlawed. Passing between cars can not be
construed as "riding". There is no amiguity there.
Different systems have different rules. On the PATH, signs specifically advise the passenger that passing between cars
while the train is in motion is prohibited. That's a decision
that the lawmakers or authorities having jurisdiction make.
We can debate the wisdom of those decisions, but there is no
debating the letter of the law, which permits passing between
moving cars on the NYCT system.
Furthermore, I would argue that passing between cars is perfectly safe for anyone able-bodied who watches his step and uses the grab bars. My only hesitations are on the R-40 (no grab bar) and the R-142(A) (two-handed storm door) -- and, of course, on 75-foot equipment, which should have locked storm doors anyway.
So if a rider passing through between cars on a properly, legally operated, moving train with no equipment out of order falls and is injured or killed, who is likely to be at fault?
That would be up to a jury to decide.
I haven't see any signs on the subway saying "Pass Through Cars at Your Own Risk." Have you?
I believe that the stickers on the end doors that say "Riding between cars prohibited" also state "NO ENTRY" or something to that effect. Take riding between cars as you like, but NO ENTRY means exactly that, no entry for any reason.
The only NO ENTRY (or equivalent) signs are on cab doors and on storm doors that are normally locked (i.e., on 75-foot cars). Take a look the next time you're on a 51-foot or 60-foot car.
I stand corrected on that one, but on the R142 I was on last night, the sign that says "Riding between cars prohibited" also says "Keep door closed." There's the TA's out if someone falls and gets injured.
Similar signs are posted on, e.g., fire doors mandated by local fire codes. Opening the door to pass through is fine; propping the door open is not.
And public safety on public conveyances was a lot worse back then. Just because my great-grandfather did risky things doesn't mean I have to do it.
Yet, I think, there were fewer accidents. On the 3rd Ave El on hot summer days, the front storm door would be open with a screen or gate across it, and you could freely stand there. Are people geting more stupid as time goes on? Or has the state of the insurance industry and the "sue you" attitude of the last 30 years have something to do with this?
Look a the example of the R-9 fan. For 40 years, this type of fan was deemed "safe", yet its blades were completely exposed, right in the passenger compartment. Nobody gave it a second thought. Were there many accidents as a result of this (i.e. someone reaching up not realizing the fan was right there)?
--Mark
Not leaning against the doors? It's a bit hard when the train getsa really crowded. A good example are all the IRT lines, obviously the most at rush hour. You don't have much choice.
Many transit systems including Chicago and Toronto leave their end doors unlocked, but specifically forbid passengers to move between cars. Other systems like PATCO, WAMTA, MATRA and the SEPTA MFL leave the end doors unlocked, but it is onvious to all but total morons that of you try to pass through while the cars are in motion you'll end up as rail smear.
The real reason for leaving end doors open is for safety in the event of an emergency.
The real reason for leaving end doors open is for safety in the event of an emergency.
Not so in New York, Mike. In the event of an emergency, the crew has keys are there are plenty of ways to enable passengers to open the doors in such a circumstance.
The BMT Standards had end doors locked but they could be remotely unlocked and opened by the conductor. And that was almost 80 years ago.
Unlocked doors are cheaper than a remote mechanism and are failsafe. They also provide for exit in emergencies that the T/O might not be aware of. These include car fires, crime, bad/toxic smells/spills, etc.
I think the idea was that passengers are not supposed to walk from car to car while the train is moving. I never did it in all the years I rode the transit system, and if I had, I would have done it only when the train was stationary.
In my honest opinion, just speaking for myself, if you walk from car to car while the train is in motion, you deserve whatever happens to you.
Years ago - back in the days when the R29/30's roamed the BMT - the end doors could be "hooked" and kept in an open position. I always walked through the train to get to the car and the door that I knew would open right next to the exit. Did my walking while the train was in motion - Saved a lot of time at exit - I didn't have to walk behind a line of people and down half the platform before reaching the exit stairs - I used to just bolt out and down the stairs - I'd be halfway home while people were still streaming out of the station...
Even today I will walk through the train to find a comfortable car (one with the AC just right) or an empty seat - if the end doors are locked I will bolt out and then re-board the next car at every stop...
Years ago? The hooks are still in place on the R-33WF singles, the R-62A singles, and the R-62's (all of them). (They're also in place in positions that aren't terribly useful to us passengers, like the R-62A's inside the cabs and the R-68's.)
They come in handy in the summer when the a/c fails.
"I always walked through the train to get to the car and the door that I knew would open right next to the exit. Did my walking while the train was in motion - Saved a lot of time at exit - I didn't have to walk behind a line of people and down half the platform before reaching the exit stairs - I used to just bolt out and down the stairs - I'd be halfway home while people were still streaming out of the station... "
That sounds very convenient. I should point out that you performed a conscious and voluntary calculation balancing convenience against safety (ie what you did was more convenient and time saving but somewhat less safe than staying in one car) and then decided to walk through the cars.
It is my contention that, when you or I do that, we should be prepared to accept personal responsibility for the consequences (for you, the consequences were positive, and yo were not injured. That's a good thing).
Paul Matus disagrees with me on that.
The modified cars (R40M) do NOT have them either. I believe you are referring to the R42, which DO have them.
wayne
There WERE handholds on the non-slanted ends I believe on R40's when they first came out but all the bars and pantographs added later on probably caused them to be removed [if there were any].
I just ran into this article in Today's Times that has made my day.
Tough Times at the Red Caboose
It's strange. I was in Train World in Brooklyn last Saturday and the place was crawling with customers.
Usually The Red Caboose generally seems to be crawling.
Yes, the internet is killing them as well. I used to go in to browse
the books. Now you can see everything on the web...
It's funny you mention browsing books in that place. The last time I was in that place, I was looking through a book on SEPTA, when a weasel came over and grabbed the book out of my hand and said "That's a very nice book" and put it back on the shelf. That was many years ago.
I was in the place once or twice when I worked in midtown. I also committed the crime of browsing through two (not cheap) books, then put them down somewhere to get cash out of my wallet to buy them. An employee came over and put the books back into the rack while mumbling something about the place "not being the library". I didn't even bother telling the drone that I was buying them and never went back there.
Sounds like you encountered 'The Professor' (aka The Black Nazi).
He is/was a real character...a middle-aged African-American, but he wore -- swear on a stack of bibles -- full Nazi-type regalia (but w/o swastikas), including riding boots...lets just say the guy fit into that place quite well :)
I used to be a huge customer at the Red Caboose-picked up a lot fo Bus World Magazines and ho scale buses from them. Then i saw something i liked, a ho scale replica of the san fransisco muni cars. the owner ordered it, thinking i was buying it. when i didnt, he got annoyed and thought i stole stuff too. i havent been back since, and that was in 1992.
I used to be a huge customer at the Red Caboose-picked up a lot of Bus World Magazines and ho scale buses from them. Then i saw something i liked, a ho scale replica of the san fransisco muni cars. the owner ordered it, thinking i was buying it. when i didnt, he got annoyed and thought i stole stuff too. i havent been back since, and that was in 1992.
The article mentions "Ma" Webster, who owned the previous store in that space, Model Railroad Equipment Corporation.
I don't know if I would describe her as "colorful," exactly, but she was one heck of a businessperson. She made MRREC's rep with service and selection. No discounting. She was tough but rock solid ethical. When I first approached her to carry Silver Leaf stuff, she told me the terms--she expected the higher wholesaler's discount, not the dealer's discount. When I balked she told me there were no two ways--either she got the discount or she didn't carry the line.
Giving her the discount was an excellent decision--she sold more SuperQuick kits, more BMT Standards, more issues of The Third Rail, than any other dealer by far. Only the ERA and the SIRT sold more copies of the SIRT book.
She always paid just like clockwork. She must have had a fortune invested in that company. You should have seen those beautiful O Scale Bowser articulateds.
The owner's lack of personality skills may also be a contributing factor.
"The owner's lack of personality skills may also be a contributing factor.
NoS...(NoS is an abbreviation similar to TS, which for the young means Tough S***)
Yeah, it takes a good manager to make a good business. Even when a bodega opens, you can tell which ones are going to stay in business and which not. The place that treats the guy buying a 40 and the lady buying a basket of stuff in the same friendly manner stays. The place that acts like they're doing you a big favor putting some lettuce on your sandwich usually is gone in a month.
[The owner's lack of personality skills may also be a contributing factor.]
Keith, I take umbridge with your statement: WHAT personality? :)
Oh. I stand corrected.
What's up guy?
Hey, it's good to see you back at SubTalk. I noticed you've been into diesel-run transit recently. :)
Three of us were in that store a couple of weeks ago (Heypaul bailed on us at Grand Central after we visited the Transit Museum). Allan wanted to close early. We went across the street.
He's not much of a salesman. Heypaul's comment about his grabbing a book out of your hand is typical. My grandson liked his cat ;-)
I have found Nassau Hobbies & Willie Hobbies much better places to brouse. They also have expanded the scope of what they offer, i.e. "Hobbies". Another example of these places changing with the times: Willis took out the layout in the basement & replaced it with a race car track. I've brought my grandson on Sundays when they hold races.
Charlie at Nassau is very much into the Web ... gets his name out there & I'm sure brings in a bunch of folks to his store. There's also a junk shop next door for the collector ... bought 3 Hess trucks there recently ('90, '91, & '93). $20 each, I now have all from '90 thru '03 !
I miss Polk's. When I was young my father would take me there (after a ride from da Bronx on the Concourse Line), and we'd spend hours looking through the merchandise and layouts on the many floors. As I recall, they were relegated to a basement-only store just before they closed.
Not only was Polk's an interesting place, with each group of hobbies on separate floors -- ever visit "America's Hobby Center" ???
Now THERE was a DUMP. Yes, they specialized in mail order, but had an upstairs store on West 22nd. Creaky stairs, filthy place, nothing in order.
Where are these shops located? Nassau Hobbies & Willie Hobbies
Nassau Hobby Center = 13 W Merrick Road Freeport
It's in the center of town one or two blocks from Guy Lombardo Blvd. (a N/S road).
Willis Hobbies = 300 Willis Ave Mineola
It's 1/2 block north of Jericho Turnpike. From Old Country Road go North either over or across the LIRR tracks ... I usually do both. The old Central Branch secondary is near by too.
Also right near Willis is a Lionel store "LI Train & Hobby Center" at 192 Jericho Turnpike
And of course you have Trainland in Lynbrook at 293 Sunrise Highway
I like Willis because I haven't bought much rolling stock in a long time and they have a large selection of books, so while my friends are considering a loco or box car I'm looking for an interesting book.
Most friendly is Charlie at Nassau. He also gets a +A for the way he displys the stuff. I bought my add-on IRT cars from him.
Thanks!
One line in the article caught my attention: "Mr. Israel offers more personalized service and encourages his customers to hang out in the store." It seems like a nicer way of telling the reader, "Mr. Spitz chases customers out of his store before they have time to purchase anything."
I think his real last name is Mr. Spits but doesn't want people to know it...
Mike, now it all comes together....that guy I was chatting with in the store across from the 'Red Caboose' WAS Mr. Isreal. I thought he looked familiar...makes sense, since I must have remembered him from years back when he worked behind the counter at 'Red Caboose'. Good for him starting his own hobby store. I wish him well.
And that quote is soooo accurate as we had 'free range' in the Manhattan Train & Hobby shop. We did not feel pressured into buying anything. Nice, relaxed fee to that store....alittle understocked in the area of rapid transit/commuter models, but they have the right approach...
I never realized Mr. Israel worked for the Red Caboose; it explains a lot, though ;)
Right, particularly his comments about 'that other store across the street'. And of course his knowledge of the other workers at the 'Red Caboose' like 'The Professor' and 'Fu Manchu'.
It's too bad the author of the article got sucked into the Red Caboose propoganda about the demise of the hobby. The comment by the owner that the "product has never been better" ... "but my sales suck" should tell him something. One time I went in to the RC and asked to look at the subway car models. Without getting up from the counter he just said, "They're very expensive."
I collect some N-scale items (railroads that ran/run in NJ) so I keep up with what Atlas & Kato are releasing in N-scale. He's right, the product has never been better and there's tons of new releases. But the fact is that The Internet is King. I'm sure that those hobby shops selling online (on their own sites or even on Ebay) would tell you that sales were never better. When before now could a mom & pop hobby shop in Sioux City, IA sell an Erie Lackawanna SD-45 to a guy in Hoboken, NJ? He's gotta face the times and change his attitudes..
Dave, you hit the nail on the head. The computer age is here and if those store went to survive, they're got to make use of the technology.
As the clientele of the hobby gets older, they have less chance of physically getting to the hobby shops (either because of distance or due to health concerns).
The shops that are doing brisk business -- like TrainLand/TrainWorld -- do the bulk of their business in email/snailmail orders.
It's the sign of the times.
But the fact is that The Internet is King. I'm sure that those hobby shops selling online (on their own sites or even on Ebay) would tell you that sales were never better.
It's noted in the article that large layouts don't always fit in New York apartments. That might be part of the reason why these two Manhattan stores are struggling while those elsewhere in the country, especially those doing business online, are more successful.
The apartment excuse doesn't hold much water, since alot of those stores thrived in the '50's and '60's from inner-city customers -- a large majority of whom -- lived in apartment buildings.
The real reason for poor sales is the fact that the younger generation has no interest in model railroads or any other form of modeling for that matter. Virtual Reality videos have replaced running model trains, cars and/or planes. All of those hobbies have fallen by the wayside as computer graphics become progressively more refined.
'And that's the Turth, Ruth.'
True enough, I wish I had more space, but 4'x6' in N-scale is pretty decent. Of course my layout table doubles as a computer workbench so right now all I have is an oval for testing new purchases... I had to dismantle my layout before I moved lest it get totally destroyed anyway...
Now you just need to build an Ntrak module and start going to shows... run mega-trains with a bunch of folks :-) And just imagine the stares you'll get with a set of Images Replicas subway cars passing through a farm scene with a steam loco on one of the adjacent tracks and a JNR Bullet Train on the other...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Big E event is in the begining of February ! Been there, seen that!
??? Chris didn't make reference to the Big E....
The Big E event ...
???? To what do you refer, my good man?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Amherst Railway Society's Big Railroad Hobby Show at the Eastern States Exposition (aka, "Big E") in Springfield, MA.
Geez, Dave, that sounds EXACTLY like MY N-scale layout. Min'e about 4x7 so I have an extra foot for storage of all sorts of junk, with the double-track oval around the outside for testing new stuff!!!
BTW, the new Athearn F59PHI's run really nice....fast,k but very good at low speeds, and wow, can they pull.
Without getting up from the counter he just said, "They're very expensive."
And here I always thought it was the way I looked or dressed when it happened to me. About 15 years ago I inquired about a set of brass BMT Standards and he gave me the same EXACT line. I wanted to just walk out but I also wanted the models. Unfortunately my desire for the models won out - and then he wasn't satisfied that I was spending over $600 - he charged me an additional 3% for using my credit card.
I haven't been there in at least 10 years now.
"and then he wasn't satisfied that I was spending over $600 - he charged me an additional 3% for using my credit card."
Which was illegal then and is still illegal. A merchant can give a discount for cash but may not charge a premium for using a credit card.
There's a guy in my home town who has a shop, but it's a junk pile.
He's always in the back room. When new items appear he'll say "I haven't priced that yet" Then they'll have vanished in a few weeks ... I'm sure he makes his money on the internet.
I used to go there every month & usually at least bought Railpace, then they wanted to up the min. he gets, so he dropped it.
Talk about hobby shops that were junkpiles...there used to be a place called Fordham Hobbies (40 years ago...) on -- of course -- Fordham Road, just east of Third Avenue about half a dozen stores. The places had to be the FILTHIEST, NASTIEST place. Every genre of scale models and boxes of model railroads just piled onto the counters in no order whatsoever. If you went in there and asked for soemthing, the owner would always say "Well, it's around here somewhere" and hunt it down, usually taking half an hour or so (which gave plenty of time to go down the street to White Castle and load up on belly bombers...) One thing good, though, he always seemed to find it -- and if you asked for advice on something, he would take the time to share it -- and it usually worked.
Usually The Red Caboose generally seems to be crawling.
With What ??? Even *I* am a better housekeeper than that guy!
I had not been in his store but once since he moved from the 3rd floor across the street to the Basement of where he is now (Which *was* a good place hithertothen.
Elias
It's been awhile since I've visited either of these stores. But I do remember being able to browse freely in the basement shop. When my brother and I visited the second story shop, we were treated very badly. When we were looking at engines, we were reminded several times that "those are very expensive." Suffice to say we never returned to that shop.
The Red Cabbose used to be on the 3rf (or 4th Floor) across the street, and the really nice shop was in the basement. Apparently, the nice place in the basement went out of business and Mr. Spitz moved his Red Caboose to that location, it only took me one visit to figure this out. Apparently Mr> Israel opened a new store across the street, but I haven't been in there, for ever since Mr. Spitz moved his store, I had not bothered with 45th Street.
Now, I sall return.
Elias
It's a short walk from Grand Central Station. We did it because we were at the Transit Museum anyway. Then walked to the Starlight Dinner, which we enjoyed very much.
The original place on the north side of 45th Street, in the basement, was called Model Railroad Equipment Corporation, and owned by Mrs. Carmen Webster. Whiel everything was always at full retail (or more) they were good at customer service, and always seemed to have the smallest items imaginable (detail parts, etc.) that nobody else would stock.
I'm suprised The Red Caboose is still in business. I say that because that guy clearly doesn't know what customer service is... and from reading the other posts in this thread it seems that others see this as well. I started going to The Red Caboose in my teen years back in the early 80's when they were in the small space across the street. My theory is that Alan decided to open that business without thinking all things through. It probably sounded like a good idea because he had an interest and lot of knowledge in model trains. I think the part he neglected to think about is that he needed to give some basic customer service at the very least. I think at that time he was OK, but he's lost it all over the years. At one point in the mid 80's he had a younger guy working there who was very friendly and really had the right attitude for dealing with customers. I've noticed that Alan is very short with customers and he acts as if he's doing the customer a favor by being there. I think at best he's OK at times, but if you ask him more than... say 2 questions he just loses it. I remember that we even used to say hi to each other, but that stopped as he often doesn't even look up until you're standing in front of him. If he wants to stay in that business he needs to hire someone else to deal with the customers because he leaves much to be desired.
Wayne
Best bet would be for him to sell the store to someome who knows the rudiments of customer service. I too remember when Manhattan alone had four or five quality stores...including the Lionel store! Man, I can't tell you hours I spent staring at that layout when I was a child!! Sort of reminded me of the layout in Pennsylvania Dutch country (near Strassburg, IIRC).
Oddly enough, I was treated nicely when I went in there to pick up my subway calendar. He seemed helpful on the phone, and the brief 2 minutes I spent in the store, paying for the calendar. He even found an envelope to put it in so that it wouldn't get screwed up. Maybe it's because I wasn't loitering, or maybe it was his off day and decided to be nice, but the one time I've been there so far has been decent.
What makes it all the more surprising is that I'm an 18 year old, definitely more of a shoplifting risk than most of you who've had bad experiences.
Anybody who walks into a store is a shoplifiting risk but teenagers and people into their early to mid 20s are quite often overrated as a shoplifting risk while older people -- especially senior citizens -- are frequently underrated, sometimes quite substantially.
I can tell you guys some stories from work if you don't believe me.
-Robert King
Maybe he's into young boys....
I use the looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck methode to tell.
Does this guy employ (or have on staff under the fraudulent guise of employment) teenaged railfans as assistants in his store?
If so, the whole sham's exactly the same as another railfan's business I've encountered.
-Robert King
That would be yes.
Well, I think the owner would have really gone out of his way to help you if you were about 10 years younger...
Perhaps he's a fan of Pete Townsend....
Maybe the Red Caboose's problems have something to do with their lousy customer service attitude??????????
Nooooo. What would make you say THAT?!
;)
I have read a majority of these posts and it doesn't surprise me. Red Caboose was my main distributor for my Comet II fleet. The guy with his cats had the nastiest customer service skills. And he can never keep track of his inventory. The Red Caboose store has a lot of potential if this guy cleans up his act( and his store). With the former NJT Transit Shoppe now gone, I was able to purchase the remaining Comet II cabs and coaches I needed for my 2 ALP44's, F40PH, E8, and GP40 and GP38 through that store. My Metro-North fleet now is purchased at the Transit Museum store at Grand Central.
I was ready with some friends to buy out the Red Caboose and run the store ourselves, but when they saw the store and "Captain Ahab", they bailed out along with myself.
I admit, I like the stuff he sells, but he rubs me the wrong way. He acts like he doesn't want to sell the trains.
And I still owe him a piece of my mind about an ALP44 loco I bought from there that actually fell apart after 3 days running on "my NE Corridor" line. Good thing I'm handy at repairing model trains.
Has the NJ Transit Shop actually closed now? The sign said January 31st, but I'm not surprised to see them close before then given how fast sales were being made when I was there on that first day. I'm glad I picked up those Corgi PCCs while I was down there.
-Robert King
I was there today. They still have a load of T shirts, some Jersey Transit videos, a lot of MC9 NJT buses, as well as some D4500 & RTS buses, still some kid toys, some copper Newark Subway PCC coins, some chrome plated spikes and sliced rail, some watches.
some Lionel videos, caps, etc.
I didn't see anymore MTH Newark PCC cars.
I was kind of hoping they would have started to carry Arrow II and Arrow III MU's. Now that the "Shoppe" is closing, I may never have that opportunity. My "mini NEC" looks naked without the Arrow units.
Any leads to purchasing these mu's will be greatly appreciated.
I don't know much about what models are available.
You might want to check with Joe Frank's Model Transit Group on Yahoo.
NYC Transit Modelers Group
I can't recall if the shop is actually closed. I ordered my stuff mainly on-line. The link to the shop is no longer there.
I'm still crying about the closing. I may have to start business again at the "Dredded Caboose". :(
From what I've been reading here, it sounds like a really awful operation.
If I knew about it before I went down on my trip, I'd have made a point in visiting the place and seeing if I could provoke a "they're expensive" out of that guy. I would have had a lot of fun saying, "Do you take Canadian money at par?" in reply...
-Robert King
The proposed closure of a part time token booth in my neighborhood will actually be good for me. I go to work very early in the morning and this entrance is not open at that time. My entrance on the Concourse at BPB (N223) is slated to become Automated access 24/7 thus saving me a 3 block walk every morning, YIPPEE!
Peace,
ANDEE
BEDFORD PARK BLVD. (BOOTH N223)
Where did you find the link to that list?
I don't like the plan for my station. The part-time southbound booth will remain a part-time southbound booth, locked at all times except rush hours -- I was hoping it would become full-time unattended. The full-time northbound booth, the only access point to the northbound platform, will be closed full-time. Three HEETs and one HXT will not handle the loads of exiting passengers -- the existing five turnstiles already have trouble, and the S/A can unlock the service gate if it gets too bad.
David,
Go to:
http://www.mta.info/mta/plan1.htm
I think you've identified the biggest problem with booth closures:
1. 1 HEET takes as much room as 2 turntiles.
2. People take twice as long to go through a HEET as a turnstile.
There goes your capacity down by a factor of 4.
Sometimes:
1) People do not know how to swipe a metrocard at a HEET.
2) People swipe their card at a HEET then turn the wheel by hand to see if it's working. Then they'll be annoyed when they can't get in.
3) People will be really annoyed when there is no clerk in the booth to help them.
When metrocard first came online people had the same aurguments that it took longer to swipe a card then to deposit a token.
Some personel observations about heet's.
My first few times through it took longer because I was unfamiliar with them. It now take me no longer to go through a heet then to go through a regular tunstyles. I use a heet at 34th street east entrence 4-5 times a week
One improvement that would speed the flow would to provide a louder fare paid confirmation beep or confirmation screen that can be viewed as you entrer the spindal area. I have observed many people(self included) who swipe and need to look back to view the confirmation screen. This slows down the flow of people.
THe issue of HEET taking up space is not much of an issue at most stations. Remove the Token booth and presto more room, IT is nice to see that the mta has recognized a need for an exit only iron maiden and will be installing one at most entrences that will be automated. this was a major problem at 34th street east entrance.
It appears that the mta is installing a communications network tha tis capable of transmitting video images possible for centralize cctv monitoring. Unfortunitly the contract calls for older style ATM instead of the more versitile and cost effective vIO (voice over IP) networks which all the telophone networks are begining to be switch over to becuase it allows data, voice and video to more effeciently use the same pipe.
"It now take me no longer to go through a heet then to go through a regular tunstyles."
That may be true of you, but it's not true of most people. They wait (unnecessarily) for the slight backswing from the previous person before they push their way through. And I'm pretty sure that even if you don't wait for the backswing it takes longer.
And most people have had a chance to get used to HEETS.
The mta needs to educate the public on the proper way to use heet
The greatest myth is that if you swipe your card and someone exits through the heet you loose your fare.
This is not true
As with metrocard people will learn to swipe and go, swipe and go
When metrocard first came out people on the bus would wait and see how much money was deducted from their card.
Today most people just dip, take thier card and move on.
The same will happen with the heet's
The same can be said with the MVM's. People are now more cofortable and time per transaction is way down.
It takes me 18 secounds to buy or refill my card, swipe my credit card and get my reciept at an mvm. much faster then at a tooken booth.
"The greatest myth is that if you swipe your card and someone exits through the heet you loose your fare.
This is not true"
Are you sure? I know someone who says he swiped at a HEET with an unlimited, got distracted, someone came out, and he was frozen out for 18 minutes.
He could be garbling the story, of course, though I don't see what else would have locked him out.
It has been posted and tested on this board
I have recently tested it myself.
swiped my card. allowed someone to exit and then proceeded to enter the turnstyle
Of course if you attempt to swipe the unlimited ride card again you may recieve the message but you should still be allowed to proceed.
the above would hold true for both heet's and regular turnstles as they use the same software
It's not a problem with booth closures, per se -- it's a problem with booth closures as NYCT is implementing them.
Compare to PATH. Why can't NYCT use standard turnstiles along with video surveillance? Toss in a customer service phone and a remotely operated service gate -- as it stands, it will be impossible to enter or exit the uptown platform of my home station (and many others) at any time of day or night with anything bulky that won't fit through a HEET. That's a real problem.
If NYCT isn't ready to implement such a system yet, I think closing primary booths is premature. Start with the part-time booths, converting them to full-time unattended access points, which will save money while increasing, not decreasing, access.
The part-time southbound booth at my station is particularly suited for elimination. It takes up more than half the space abutting the platform, and the three turnstiles are wedged into a corner. Remove the booth and there's room to replace the three turnstiles with three HEETs plus an HXT. Keep it open all night, rather than only rush hours, so that someone who gets off the last car of a train doesn't have to walk all the way to the front of the platform just to get out. But according to the posted plan, the part-time booth will remain and the northbound booth, at the only entrance to that platform, will be closed.
You bring up some very valid points
Going through the closure plan there are some area's where booths are not being closed where they should and other areas where some modifications to the plan can be maid.
One particular example is kings highway on the brighton line. The e 16th street entrance is going to remain as a part time booth which closes at 9 pm. The e 26ht street entrance is home to the b11, b2 and b31 buses. Riders coming home from work late now need to walk up to the kings highway exit and a block and a half to the catch thier buses home. This entrance would be perfect for automation
Most users come off the bus with a free transfer thus do not need to buy thier fare
CCTV cameras could be used in lue of an all heet setup. thus elinating the "slower heet" issue. and the bulky package issue
Automatated gates could be used to close off the tunstyles during non rush hour periods.
I have a problem with the Court Street Booth closure and the elevators not being monitored. Yes the entrance is 24/7 now but during heavy periods at least there is someone to tell you when the elevators aren't working and to ensure the stair access is open.
Yes it is suppose to open but half the time the door is stuck closed.
Why not just have an automated billboard when you enter the station tell you the info.
Of course, if they can't manage to keep the escalator functioning one must question their ability to keep the automated billboard both working and up to date.
CG
Very easy. The automated billboard is solid state electronics which requires zero maintainess vs. an escualtor which is requires tons of maintainnace to work properly.
It took several YEARS to get our passenger information displays on the WMATA platforms working. It apparently isn' that simple and WMATA is a highly automated system.
If the reports from the audit does show that the MTA is in a deficit, and we need to prove that the fake hike must be implemented. We can tell stories of our subway rides of the 1970's and 1980's just to prove the point about what happens if we lets budget cuts go on without problems. I Remember when I started topics like "how were the subways like in the 70's" and getting 200 posts each with peoples stories of their rides as kids. We can show the public these posts to open the flood gates for why if necessary a fare hike should occur.
Chris,
If the audits show a deficit then that is all the proof (yeah I know PROFF) that should be needed.
No matter how much proof is provided most people who ride the subway won't understand it, much less care. All they know and care about is that they have to pay up to 50 cents more per ride and their train will still be late.
When the increase is implemented (and it will be) you will hear a lot of whining but after a month everyone will be used to it (in typical NY fashion).
But watch the MTA - they will find some way to show that even 50 cents is not enough and they will reduce services anyway.
Attending public hearings is vital. Please show up for one of these and voice your opinions on service, fare hikes, whatever:
Manhattan - Feb. 5, Roosevelt Hotel, 4pm
Brooklyn - Feb. 6, NYC Tech, 4pm
Staten Island - Feb. 12, Wagner High School, 4pm
Bronx - Feb. 18, Bronx County Building, 4pm
Queens - Feb. 19, Queens Borough Hall, 6pm
Public Hearings Schedules: http://mta.info/mta/communications/hearing-fare.htm
The 3rd of the "Safety" cards has come out. Was at Main Street (Flushing) today & found a "Hold onto your youth, your dreams, and while you're at it, the handrails."
Prev. avail.:
- Why run for the train ? ....
- Please, no running in the station. ....
Gotta find one of those -- I think that phrase better than the other two...
MTA's website has an announcement that, "due to an earlier fire," the MTA.info website would be taken down tonight and remain offline until tomorrow.
Does anybody know what happened?
I could not access the MTA website all day yesterday.
Well it's back up and running as of right now.
The comptroller demanded to see the records again as to why they want to raise the fare. The paper shredder on lease from Enron never arrived so the TA had to do it the old fashioned way :-)
Heh. And I thought *I* left the meatball with a bad attitude. A tip of the hat for ya. :)
Bad attitude no more. Old timers laughing at me here, I picked a ROAD job today.PM, Saturday Sunday off. Took me 7 years back home. I won't be eating meatballs for long. I proudly use a token now.
Congrats, guy! It's funny ... the whole time I worked at the meatball, I got to hate it more and more each day. For all the time YOU put in, I'm amazed there weren't any shootings or stabbings. I can bet you're MUCH happier now. :)
You know it was done purposely :0)
If only Regis were as wise as his owner.. :)
Fire at 345 Madison Avenue.
David
There was a smoke condition at 347 Madison. Con Edison did some electrical work after 5 PM, so this caused the electricity to be shut down.
Four of the five boroughs seemed to be hit pretty hard with vandalism in the late 70's and early 80's. Was Staten Island's bus and SIR and Long Island also hit pretty hard by the graffiti?
The LIRR had very occassional taggings on the trains, but it was not ever particularily noticable on the trains, and they usually kept on top of it. Stations outside of the city hardly ever had graffiti on them. In fact even the stations within the city didn't seem to have much graffiti on them either, at least not like the subway, which is strange because anyone can just walk onto the stations, no fare control. I can't speak for stations like Nostrand Ave, or East New York, because I never used those stations as a kid in the graffiti era. The LIRR trains very rarely had markings on them.
No fare control? Like no gates that open with the insertion of tokens or any other sort of turnstile/gate? Then how the hell could the MTA make money if no one paid for their rides?
LIRR operates with tickets. You buy a ticket (the cost of which varies depending on where you're going) and a conductor collects it on the train. Standing on the platform is free.
CG
And that is true to this day. There is nothing stopping you from entering the stations at let's say Nostrand Ave, or Woodside, etc and just walking around the platform - totally unlike a subway station where you have to pay to get in.
Some of the Port Washington's line stations in Queens are veritable graffiti art galleries.
SIR trains are always graffiti-free. Graffiti is an occasional problem in the stations and other structures but is painted over by SIR cleaning crews within a day or two.
The LIRR's attention to it's Queens stations has always been lax. Click here to see what I mean.
There is a LOT of scratchiti at the Stapleton station on the SIR.
You see on the LIRR & Metro North, you buy your ticket at the station booth [if you buy it on the train its $2 extra] then you give the C/R your ticket and he/she takes out a card, punches holes in the fare zone where you paid your tix and puts it on your seat.
On the SIR, you used to be charged a fare on the train until about 4-5 years ago where it became free boarding at all stations *EXCEPT* at St. George Ferry, where you have to pay nowadays.
On the LIRR if there are no available machines or ticket booths on the station for at least 30 minutes before the train's departure, the on board ticket purchase carries no surcharge.
On the SIR, fare is paid on entry and exit at St. George. It is also paid on entry and exit at Ball Park for Ball Park-Tottenville trains.
Yes, I know that on the SIR you pay/exit at St George & the Ballpark but most people heading toward St George Ferry walk from Tompkinsville to avoid paying $1.50 upon exiting.
I highly doubt that. Some do; most pay the fare. (Many if not most have to pay a fare anyway, either for a bus at the Staten Island end or for a subway or bus at the Manhattan end.) The train and ferry have a timed connection -- if you get off at Tompkinsville and walk, you have to wait for the next ferry.
In addition, I thought that most St. George-bound trains skip Tompkinsville in the morning rush hour.
Also on MN, the rules are the same (in this case at least) as on the LIRR.
On NJT, the surcharge is $5.
I have an NJT on board ticket. I also had them for MN and the LIRR but it seems I have misplaced it. The next time I go downstairs I'll get the NJT ticket and scan it.
They were starting to in Brooklyn. In 1972-73, when the MP-72 & MP-75 cars were referred to as the "West Hempstead equipment" (they seldom went anywhere else) and seldom ran to Penn Station. they started getting it.
Staten Island Rapid Transit had a terrible graffiti and vandalism problem before the TA did, but this was due to much of it running through a rural area with kids with too much time, too little to do, and too much opportunity to act out unobserved.
But it was the more traditional writing on posters or stations and petty breaking stuff. The trains weren't tagged in that era. As to what we now call graffiti, I don't know how bad it was in the 70s.
The Long Island was barely touched as to equipment, despite having a major outdooe yard in downtown Brooklyn.
I grew up in the '70s and '80s riding transit on SI. The SIRT never had anything - other than the silver and blue livery - on them. It is only recently that I recall anything being on the windows.
The stations were clean too. A little marking up, but nothing huge. Today, however, it seems that the stations all stink of urine and are overrun by garbage.
SI Buses were always old, but not unkept. Well, not any more than today. I remember when the RTS make its first stop on the Island and the HS kids - who were used to windows that opened - would pull the emergency windows to scream at their friends.
Chip
Possibilities...
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/living/food/4945767.htm
I'd brown bag it.
It depends on where your at so chances are its up to you. I'd go to a sandwich shop, order a sub & soda to go [unless I decide to stay], the back up is going to a fast food chain.
NY-
Papaya
72nd & Broadway
23rd & Broadway
Chambers & W. Broadway
Also Papaya King at 3rd Ave and 86th - great photos of the el that used to run past inside too!
Definitely can't forget that one, I went to school on 94th and that place is a must, railfanning or not.
Yesh, but I STILL don't get why it's a tad more
PRICEY than it's sister locations on Broadway???
I was there last week and don't plan on going again.
:(
Fewer employees in the area or to sock it to the tourists.
That doesn't violate health codes in any way?
No thanks. I'll get off the Market-Frankford line at 2nd street and walk a block west to Gianfranco's Pizza Rustica at 3rd and Market.
Mark
According to today's Newsday the Riese organization (known for 3-4 fast food franchises crammed into one store) has bought the name and will open up one in Penn Station, eighth avenue end in an existing location.
Wonder if they'll have the original orangeade and the yummy mustard/relish?
It's right near where I work. I should have a report by the end of the week.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, I heard about the Grand (re)Opening of Nedicks at Penn Station on the "Ron 'n Fez Show" last night (102.7, WNEW, 7p.m.).
They actually had the manager on the show one day last week promoting the event.
They now serve fried twinkies, IIHC.
Which are extremely delicious
(also try fried Milky Ways if you can find them)
When I first heard of the idea of a fried twinkie, I went "ewwww". But everyone keeps saying they're great, so I'm gonna try one when I can.
When I first heard of the idea of a fried twinkie, I went "ewwww". But everyone keeps saying they're great, so I'm gonna try one when I can.
Might go well with a Scotch Egg (a deep-fried ball of sausage meat surrounding a hard-boiled egg).
I just finished reading a book about Robert Scott's Antarctic expedition of 1912. Standard fare for the explorers on their way to the South Pole was lard mixed with dried beef, good for about 6,000 calories per day. Of course, they all died.
Might go well with a Scotch Egg (a deep-fried ball of sausage meat surrounding a hard-boiled egg).
Interesting that you mention this... I'd not heard of it, but I've been making mini-meatloaves for years with one or two hard-boiled eggs (depending on the size of the loaf) inside. Not fried, of course (nor is there any pork) but a similar idea - supposedly Turkish in origin, although I don't know for sure, I liked it when someone served it to me that way many years ago and adapted the recipe.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Gee, I used to have breakfest there a lot ... mucho grease (yuck)
Wonder if they take my Nedick's dime ?
When I was a teenager, the luncheonette that was in the mezzanine of the BMT Times Sq. station was my #1 spot for lunch. Always got a hot dog and a small coke for $1.50. For breakfast, the stand that used to be on the uptown platform at Delancy St. always had good coffee/donuts. I used to love the idea that I could eat real food in the system without having to actually leaving it. By 1988, all these "spots" were gone.
As of around 1988-1989, I remember buying hot dogs in the Jay Street-Borough Hall stations mezzanine at a counter service stand.
As a young teenager in the mid 80's, I used to go to either the Midway or Continental theatres to see a movie at 71st-Continental. I seem to remember a food concession stand there also that I used to get a bite to eat before or after the movie.
Hmmm, don't remember a concession stand at Continental Ave. I remember one at 169th St. Also Hoyt/Schermerhorn, Bway-ENY, Grand Central and that awesome smelling roasted nut/candy stand right in the middle of the Herald Sq. complex. I loved the smell of warm cashews as I switched to/from the IND and BMT.
I remember the Herald Square nut place.
As for other "subway establishements". There use to be a "elaborate" shoe-shine place at 14th-8th (which seemed to be from out of the 30's), and a full service florist shop, that lasted until the renovation.
Oh yeah, I remember the shoe-shine place.
Well IIRC, there was an "Orange Room" on the mezzanine of 74th Street-
Roosevelt Avenue. Or the granddaddies of all, the shops in the
station building at Stillwell Avenue outside fare control.
;-) Sparky
Well IIRC, there was an "Orange Room" on the mezzanine of 74th Street-
Roosevelt Avenue. Or the granddaddies of all, the shops in the
station building at Stillwell Avenue outside fare control.
;-) Sparky
I like to go to Blimpie's, one of the ones that still have the original #1 (Spiced ham, cooked salami & cheese) - there are only two left that I know of (13th & 4th Ave Manhattan, and Willoughby St in Brooklyn. If I can't get to one of those, I get a BB at one of the other Blimpie outlets.
wayne
I used to frequent the Blimpie's in 14th between 5th and 6th. Their sandwiches are so much better than Subway.
times square a genuine philadelphia cheese steak !!
a small place ............sure tasted good 2 me !!
whew !
In New York City years ago, it was HERESY to leave the system to eat. We had that fine French restaurant, "Nay-deeks" (Nedicks) and of course the ubiquitous "Yankee Frankee" at several larger stations ... didn't have to leave the system once upon a time. :)
How about a "foreigner" from California putting in his two cents worth on the subject. For me there is only one way to go. I ride out to Coney Island on the magnificent Sea Beach, at least I did unti it went to 86th, then rode the Cyclone two or three times to get the blood running, then off to Nathan's for some of their shrimp and cod sandwiches, washed down with lemonade, of course. In Manhattan I would return to my hotel in the evening and sometimes eat at a Sbearro's. I liked their chicken and peppers over Spaghetti, minus the crappy sauce they served. Back in 1974 and 1991 there was a luncheonette and soda fountain right off Moshalu Highway on the #4. I would get a sandwich, rootbeer, then top if off with a dish of Breyer's ice cream----one scoop of chocolate and one of butter pecan. That place has disappeared like the rest of the soda fountains in and around the city. Next time I come to town I will stop in Hinch's, the last soda fountain inthe city and have a sandwich and a shake.
Sbarro's is PEPSI, Nathan's ain't Nathan's anymore, at least not the Coney Island joint, and even Breyers' ain't Breyer's anymore. One of my FAVORITE places was Napoli pizza at 204th and Bainbridge (BX) but they're gone too. The joint on Mosholu Pkwy and Jerome was one of my FAVORITE joints when I attended DeWitt Clinton HS (heaven help you if you got caught sneaking out there during "school hours") ... sadly, a lot of the classic NYC joints just ain't there anymore.
Wish I could remember the name of the BIG restaurant (they did catering too) at Emmons Avenue in Sheepshead Bay - something like Randazzo's or similar - big seafood joint ... that was a treat whenever I ended up down there. It's a shame what's happened over the years though to so many NY eateries. I used to LOVE stopping off at a Merit Farms on my way home, pick up GENUINE pastelillos (not those "generic caribbean meat pie thingies" they peddle now) and knishes that were ROUND, not square with a waffled texture and GENUINE street dogs before Sabrett's move across the river ...
You'd LOVE Montreal though - the section known as "Petit Italie" in particular is SCRUMPTIOUS just about anywhere you go. But NYC? I go for the trains, not the food. :(
"Sbarro's is PEPSI, Nathan's ain't Nathan's anymore, at least not the Coney Island joint, and even Breyers' ain't Breyer's anymore. One of my FAVORITE places was Napoli pizza at 204th and Bainbridge (BX) but they're gone too. The joint on Mosholu Pkwy and Jerome was one of my FAVORITE joints when I attended DeWitt Clinton HS (heaven help you if you got caught sneaking out there during "school hours") ... sadly, a lot of the classic NYC joints just ain't there anymore. "
Don't be so closed minded. I've eaten there recently - and how. The pizza is every bit as good as I remember from being a kid there in the 1960's, and you haven't really eaten breakfast until you've walked into a Puerto Rican joint under the #4 train in the morning and forked over $5. That food was not to be believed...
Nothing like eating Cuchifritos on 116 Street. Prices are cheap and you get a lot of food. Wash that down with an XXXL lemonade( only $1.75) and you're set to go. Only be sure to use the facilities before you go back on the subway.
And in the Bronx, Lincoln Fried Chicken on 149 and Grand Concourse for some chicken fries, and Cross Bronx Pizza, Castle Hill Ave and the Cross Bronx Expwy. Home of the largest pizza slice in the Bronx. Try to finish at least 1 slice. I hold the record for 2 at one sitting.
In Brooklyn, Nathans in Coney Island, Bay Pizza on Sheepshead Bay Road, and Spuomoni Gardens in Coney Island.
You qualify as an accomplished eater. I'm taking notes on these places.
Oh no doubt at all. A railfan has got to eat, even on a limited budget.
I should also add what I like to call Brooklyn's "Restaurant Row". It's on Avenue U and runs from Ocean Ave to the Sea Beach line at West 7 St. A lot of Delis', a few diners, and chinese restaurants. Accesible by N, F, and ( Q ) trains. With a free transfer and/or unlimited MetroCard, you can use the B3 bus to travel between these points along Ave U.
Also, I suggest( if he's still in business), Jimmy's Famous Heros on Sheepshead Bay Road and Shore Parkway.
My Manhattan recommendations have been mentioned on an earlier post. I really don't have any local joints in Queens to brag about, let alone in Staten Island along the SIR. I only know about McDonalds in the St George Terminal.
However, #1 on my list happens to be 2 places not near our subways, but to NJ Transit's NE Corridor in Elizabeth. Around the corner from Morris Ave( across from the old CNJ depot) is a Colombian joint that sells a Bandeja platter. For $9, it comes with rice, beans, steak, eggs, pork rinds, and chorizo( sausage) with a side salad and avocado. Also good are several Portuguese take-out joints along Elmora Ave. They are between Westfield Ave and Rahway Ave. Try them out. You won't be sorry.
Are you talking about Lundy's? They reopened. We at there in October. Good seafood.
very expensive and over rated though
What was that place we dined at Saturday the 12th? Good food there.
Jeez Steve, I forgot. I know where it is, though, and I will eat there again. Gary Wengeroff knows the answer to that. And where the hell have you been lately Gary? Get back on board.
It was on Mulberry Street, right? Did it start with an F? I think there was an F somewhere in its name.
Knew Lundy's ... and as others have offered, overpriced ... it was Randazzo's, Randalzo's or something like that. Had almost a DOCK around the place it was so close to the bay. Haven't been there since the 70's, but they used to advertise on TV for catering and parties. If you were into squirmy things from the sea, it was THE place to go. You could have anything northern style or siciliano. Excellent scallopini, scungill to die for and everything was just great there. Not as pricey as some of the other places and you left STUFFED. :)
aDELMANS dELI kINGS hWY AND 19TH ONLY 2 BLOCKS FROM THE q, AND TO WASH IT DOWN A EGG CREAM AT THE sWARMA sTORE, UNDER NEXT TO THE sTATION nEAR 15TH
NOW you're talking ... On the main island, Katz's was an absolute treat as well ... so what's da deal Unca Bob? Spill some Fox's U-bet in the old keyboard there? :)
Wish I had some, just had the cap locks on by mistake
As they used to say, "don't worry about the flies, we won't weigh 'em." :)
You see guys, nostalgia has its place---so will you all tell Pig and others who diss us for being that way to take a walk----a long walk.
I never let those comments get to me. Won't be long before the young'uns are calling Pigs an old phart ... wheel of time is an amusing thing to watch. Or as mom said, "I hope they grow up to be JUST LIKE YOU." :)
Randazzo's my good friend. Sadly, it's no longer there. The neon lobster sign hasn't flashed for a while now. But then again, it might have been closed for renovations, but I'm sure that it closed for good.
Randazzo's my good friend. Sadly, it's no longer there. The neon lobster sign hasn't flashed for a while now. But then again, it might have been closed for renovations, but I'm sure that it closed for good.
Whenever a restaurant closes "for renovations," it's probably gone for good.
At the end of rush hour, when we all got our paychecks cashed, we'd head down there for a good old fashioned face-stuffing after playing with our choochoos all week. May not have been the choice of railfoamers, but you'd see half the Stillwell guys and gals down there after we put our rush hour layups away for the weekend. Sorry to hear they're done. They were GOOD ...
I feel the same way. Any good joints to eat up in "Smallbany"?
Actually, not many. Especially Chinese. Ick. There's a good place for pizza in Altamont, but no sit down. Bugaboo Creek Steakhouse (a chain out of Florida) is pretty good but no, dining and Smallbany are mutually exclusive. That's why we head for Montreal if we want really good food. But Nancy's cooking is better than anything you're likely to find anywhere within a hundred miles or more. :)
Whenever I railfan and lunch rolls around I usually run into a McDonalds and just eat there, for better or worse.
Today, even thought I walked from the 59th St METRA Electric station to the 55th St. green line station with the express purpose of finding food, I didn't come accross a single eating establishment and went the whole day w/o food. After I got on the EL I simply had no time to spare for food.
I would like to try the new Nedick's at Penn Station.
Different stations have different places to find and eat food. Far too many places to list here unless someone writes a book and plugs it here.
There *is* a book. I have it at home but can't remember the exact name - it's something like Undrgound New York. It is by Dave Frattini, and describes all the subway stations with a quality rating on a 1-5 scale, together with nearby objects of interest *and* nearby eating places. Admittedly, I find his writing style a bit hard to take, and the eating places are outside fare control (though with a FunPass that isn't a problem).
I also have the book. The book is a little dated. Eating places changed or went out of business. Not to mention new places at the locations. Probably good now as a general guide.
Didn't anybody actually look at the article before responding? I know a few did.
There was a reason I provided the URL...
:0)
Was just checking out this page about this line and was also checking out some of the pictures of the "stations" which closed nearly 5 years ago? Did anyone actually use this service? There are NO station structures past Richmond Hill! Were there ever platforms? What kind of cars were used, since the line isn't electrified? How did one get on/off trains at say, Glendale?
LIRR did have rolling stock with stairs, did it not? You would have climbed up and down the stairs to get into the car.
On Amfleet equipment they often have little step stools on the ground you can stand on to make it easier as you exit the car.
SEPTA's Tulpehocken Station (R8 Chestnut Hill West Line) has a wooden base which the engineer aims for as he's stopping the train. It's raised off the ground a few inches, so again it's a little easier to get off the train. Except that one snowy day it was so icy the conductor almost fell and had trouble helping people off the train. I almost took a spill on it.
Many NJ transit stations on the booton line do not have platforms either. You climb steps to get in the car
LIRR did have rolling stock with stairs, did it not? You would have climbed up and down the stairs to get into the car.
Correct. The arrival of the stair-less bilevel coaches made the low platform stations unusable, and the LIRR cited the high cost of adding high platforms as its main reason for closing some less-used station including those on the Lower Montauk. Richmond Hill was closed even though it had high platforms.
It still amazes me that the LIRR considered mere patches of dirt between tracks as official stations.
Most were just a "stop" on a grade crossing. Here's what they all looked like:
Richmond Hill (the only "real" looking station) - I never used it. Usually noticed the same one guy getting off anytime I was on the train through there.
Glendale - I used it rarely. No one ever got off in the morning. I have seen one or two people getting on in the evening sometimes. The same morning conductor usually was on the train, and although I only used it occasionally, he always joked with me and said, "So I guess you're getting off at the cemetery". It was usually that or Fresh Pond that I used.
Fresh Pond - I used that one the most, although only occasionally). Always had two or three people get off in the morning (same people)- rarely saw people get on in the evening. The winter trips were the most fun. This was my favorite station of the group. See Here for my Fresh Pond's info.
Haberman - seemed to me to be the busiest. I never used it personally, but noticed a few get on or off.
Penny Bridge - can't remember, but don't really remember anyone using it.
The crazy thing about these stations was that the LIRR had no interest in advertising it's service there. For most of the time that I used the "stations" there wasn't even a sign at some of them! Near the end, about 1994 or so, they put up brand new signs. Before that, you had to know a train would stop there, otherwise you wouldn't have a clue. It amazed me that the kind of service they ran there even lasted to the late 90's! It was so wierd, like you were in some rural outback or something from the 1920's! They used normal diesel pulled coaches (that were on all the other lines at the time). There were no platforms, you kind of had to boost yourelf up onto the first step to get on the train. The conductor stood in an open doorway to see if anyone was getting on. When I had ridden from Patchogue in the morning, at Jamaica, the conductor would announce the stops. Then as he walked through the train, he asked where you were getting off. If no one was getting off, sometimes they would just slowdown (enough for him to notice if anyone was trying to get on), and if not, they would just slowdown slightly, almost fully stop, and then take off again - sort of like when someone "rolls through a stop sign" (this is usually what happened at Glendale)
That line was loads of fun.
Thanks. Great pics. Haberman, Glendale and Penny Bridge merely look like random spots along the line, no clue that you can actually catch trains here. Too bad I missed this service.
Beautiful pictures. I believe the last run was 4/1/98, and the article in the NY Times said that just 3 people used Richmond Hill that morning.
Do any LIRR trains use the ROW now to Jamaica or is it just freight - or abandoned?
I believe there still is passanger service on the line, although it's non-stop from Jamaica to LIC.
That's correct. There's one inbound train in the morning and one outbound train in the afternoon.
And IIRC the line is still used for freight on the NY&A. Operations are limited in the Fresh Pond Junction to Sunnyside Yard area.
nopers- ny&a goes out to LI via this branch, through jamacia- so they run on pretty much the entire length of the line, except for the short stub between the cut off to yard a and the straight shot LIRR makes down into the LIC coach yard & station. they probably run more trains on the line than LIRR does anymore!
aside from the scheduled lirr run, there seems to be occasional equipment moves to and from jamacia, and the lic coach yard switcher probably goes back to jamacia down this line... this seems to only go down after the last train has left LIC yard...
Does anyone actually use this service? How much demand is there for LIRR service from LI to LIC?
Did Long Island City get it's name because it was originally the main terminal for all LIRR service?
Does anyone actually use this service? How much demand is there for LIRR service from LI to LIC?
I last rode the line about a year ago, on the morning rush-hour train from Jamaica to LIC. It's hard to say for sure, but I'd guess that about 50 to 75 people were onboard.
Long Is. City existed as such before the LIRR.
Yes. Long Island City service uses that ROW.
Here are some photos of the trains in action:
This is a west-bound train stopping at Glendale Station:
This is an east-bound train that has just finished it's stop at Fresh Pond Station. The eastbound "platform" is the cinders to the right of the train.
The Bushwick Branch is the track on the right. Back in the 20's, this was an "island" low level platform that served Bushwick trains on one side, and the Montauk Branch on the other.
The tracks on the far right are part of Fresh Pond yard, that was not very active in the late 80's and early 90's. The NYA changed this and it is active once again. The main part of Fresh Pond Yard is on the other side of the M train, which is the direction the train in the photo is headed.
The west-bound platform is on the extreme left, a "wall" platform. You can still see the curbline of the cinder platform. Believe it or not, this station at the time of this photo (1991) is an ACTIVE station. Abandonment was still 7 years away. Truly amazing.
The last photo is an East-bound train about to stop at the Glendale station. Believe it or not, this photo was taken in 1991, and to the right of where the engine is, was where they put the "Glendale" sign in 1994, that lasted until abandonement in 1998. At this point in 1991, there was NO sign, and NO evidence that three trains stopped here each weekday (one in the morning, and two in the evening).
This was such an interesting line when it ran local service. It really bogles my mind that service was still running to these stations in this manner in the late 90's! Hard to believe.
BTW, do the current trains that run to LIC still run non-stop through the Montauk Branch, or do they go via Hunters Point Avenue to LIC. I think one still goes through ecah way, but not sure.
1. At what street(s) was this station located?
2. What el is in shown in the background?
3. What are the 2 nearest stations in each direction, on that el line?
4. What year was the photo taken?
5. Are the station and platform still intact, the way they're shown in the photo? (e.g., have they been removed by the LIRR or perhaps destroyed by vandals?)
6. Is there only one track going past the platform, as the photo seems to show?
wayne
It was at intersection where Lefferts, Myrtle, and Hillside all meet.
2. What el is in shown in the background?
That's the J line, right near the 121st Street station.
3. What are the 2 nearest stations in each direction, on that el line?
It's between 121st St and 111th St. It's in walking distance of 121st St.
4. What year was the photo taken?
That photo was taken around 1991, when the station was still open.
5. Are the station and platform still intact, the way they're shown in the photo? (e.g., have they been removed by the LIRR or perhaps destroyed by vandals?)
The platforms are fully intact, and have not changed much from the way they look in the photo. The line is still used for freight, and deadhead moves of passenger trains, and also one or two in service revenue trains.
6. Is there only one track going past the platform, as the photo seems to show?
The station is two tracks, one on each side, and they use both tracks (one east and one westbound). Here are a few more photos taken around 1995 for the first two photos, and 1998 for all the others, just before the station closed:
www.forgotten-ny.com
Many old BRT surface stations, including on the Brighton Line, were raised packed earth or (possibly) cinders. Not even a wood platform. A lot of LIRR stations were smooth clearings until fairly recently. Even in electric territory, there were low-level stations until the M-1s became universal. Last low-level electric line: West Hempstead. Railfans breathed a sigh of relief when they finally installed high-level platforms there.
Many old BRT surface stations, including on the Brighton Line, were raised packed earth or (possibly) cinders. Not even a wood platform. A lot of LIRR stations were smooth clearings until fairly recently.
A few regular LIRR stations had those "cinder" platforms right until 1998 when they added all the high level platforms for the new diesels.
Bellport on the "real" Montauk Branch was one of them, until it got it's high level platform a few years ago:
I believe Yaphank, and some of the other Mainline stations east of Ronkonkoma had cinder platforms also.
Medford on the other hand had this rather crude wood deck. It looked even more ricketty in person. It was strange, especially because Medford is up high on an embankment. It has improved greatly since the new platform was installed about 5 years ago.
Many of the stations east of Ronkonkoma on the Ronkonkoma Branch were only slightly ahead of the condition of the local stations on the LIC western Montauk Branch. Holtsville, now abandoned was a total joke (I don't have that one scanned, and don't feel like doing it right now).
Medford on the other hand had this rather crude wood deck. It looked even more ricketty in person. It was strange, especially because Medford is up high on an embankment. It has improved greatly since the new platform was installed about 5 years ago.
Medford has a small shelter on the new platform, but unfortunately it's a very tempting target for vandals.
Yeah, and isn't that a shame? Holtsville, on Waverly Avenue, is not too close to Ronkonkoma, and is situated in an area that will continue to grow. I used to take trains to there or from there when the opportunity arose. It was very interesting to get off there. A blast from the past. The entire Ronk to Greenport section of the Mainline is a wonder. Thank goodness Medford was left open. The area needs trains stopping there. I'm not in favor of "everyone drives to Ronkomkoma".
There used to be a train named THE RIVERHEAD ROCKET. In about 10 years or so, I'll bet we see enhanced service on that section, with rush-hour limited stop express trains from Ronk westward. With maybe two stops after that, Deer Park and Hicksville. (For all the industry and offices around those stations.) And maybe Mineola for the same reasons.
This seems like a viable train service:
Riverhead
Yaphank
Medford
Holtsville
Ronkonkoma
Deer Park
Hicksville
Mineola
Jamaica
Seems like it would attract a large number of intra-island riders.
This new enhanced trackway will allow for smooth local/express scheds. So we should re-examine the service patterns. With the new tracks there should be more entry points to riding the railroad. Re-open Peconic, Manorville, Upton, Calverton, Holtsville, Holbrook, Lakeland, PineAire, old Deer Park, Republic and Grumman stations. Rezone the areas around all the stations for concentrated growth. Coordinate all the connecting buses for connections. Let the buses run whenever trains will be running, which'll mean 24/7 service. So institute new heated bus shelters with realtime train indicators. Get the funding for studies into converting Rt. 110 and Veterans Memorial Highway to LRT lines. Also start planning for a connector line from Patchogue to L.I. MacArthur Airport to Ronkonkoma Station.
Of course, to do this profitably we're gonna have to shut down and abandon the Long Island Expressway. But what the hell. Think of what a nice linear, uh, Roads To Toads nature walk it'll make!
I like your list of stations, except I would also add the Tanger Outlet Center between Manorville and Riverhead stations. That place with cars is a zoo, and the tracks are right next to it anyway. Very easy to have a station right at the Outlet Center.
AEM7
Huh? Do you mean the "real" Montauk Branch? The Montauk Branch is in great shape, and very well used as a passenger line. The Western Montauk Branch (Jamaica to LIC) is abandoned to local passeneger service. And 100% of the freight that is on LI runs on that line, so although it has little passenger service, it is far from an unused line. As for that photo of Holtsville, it was on the Mainline, and that station IS abandoned now (1998 it closed), and the rest of the stations look good now (even though they could use a major increase in service.
Medford 2003:
(compare that to the "former" condition of Medford in my post above from last Jan and in the photo below)
It is whacky that the residents at these locations can't want a subway to use this ROW and proceed to Roosevelt in one direction and the Rockaways in the other.
avid
Uh, I think you are thinking of the old Rockaway Line through Ozone Park, IIRC the Montaulk branch is completely different. The Rockaway Line was a north south route running off the Hell Gate, down south over the LIRR main and the Montaulk branch, and then over Jamaica bay where the A train now roams to Far Rockaway and Rockway park, and has been discussed in depth on other threads.
The Montaulk Branch was an east west line paralleling the LIRR main to the East River Tunnel while going to Long Island City. The line, as well as these abandoned stations still appear on the LIRR map on this page. I believe it was so named because the diesel and steam Montaulk line trains used to terminate there while other routes electrics ran into the city, but could be wrong on that. So far the only idea I've seen to suggest that the Montaulk Line be opened up for regular commuter service is Elia's NYCsubways2020 idea for a WTC tranportation center, where the Montaulk branch would provide a feeder for the tunnel to Lower Manhatten.
The 1968 "Plan For Action" suggested connecting the 63rd. St. tunnel to the Montaulk branch for subway, not LIRR usage.
The 63rd Street tunnel is too far north to connect to the Montauk line. The 63rd Street subway tunnel was to connect to the Queens Boulevard line, and a Queens Blvd bypass along the LIRR MAIN.
Hmm, maybe not queens boulevard from 63rd st but rather maybe running into a new East River Tunnel at 2nd ave, where the V currently terminates. The line would run from where the Montaulk Line intercepts the Rockaway Line, at the Rockaway line routes would run north and south from there, one line up to Queens Blvd, one line down to the A train to Rockaway (of course this once again assumes that the Rockaway line ROW is clear for a train to built over it. I suppose that more stations would be needed for subway service as compared to what the LIRR had.
The 63rd/Montaulk connection was a suggestion, not a defined proposal. Glendale/Maspeth NIMBYism killed it quickly. I'm not sure how the line was to be connected to the 63rd St. tunnel, the plan was KO'ed before more specifics were released.
I still think this should be revisited. Glendale, Ridgewood and Maspeth have little or no subway access. The Montaulk LIRR ROW is a very useful line which is underutilized in the extreme. A mere connection from it to the mainline short of Hunts Point would also be a good idea. The new LIRR cars can now travel on track whether it's electrified or not, and routing some trains via this line would ease congestion on the current mainline.
I think Middle Village "liked" being a two-fare neighborhood, because, in the view of some, it was spared the "undesirables" supposedly brought in by mass transit, but now, with Metrocard, is there such a thing as a two-fare neighborhood anywhere in NYC ?
"Did anyone actually use this service?"
As GP38 Chris mentioned, there were very few passengers during the last days of these stations.
I had always thought that they were more heavily used in the past, but recently I came upon an LIRR system timetable from 1948. Ya know what -- same one train a day in each direction.
CG
I can't understand how this service lasted so long. Other non-electrified lines within the city limits lost their passanger service in the 20's/30's, like Bay Ridge. The way Glendale, Fresh Pond, Haberman and Penny Bridge were set up, they looked incredibly unsafe, even with the infrequent number of trains on the line.
I have no idea why this lady has a job. Let me explain. I went to the station at 1:45PM. I realized that I only had a 20 and a dollar bill so I would have to go to the booth rather than a single ride metrocard from the vending machine. No big deal, right? Wrong. I wait on a line of about 3 people, and when I approach the booth and slip my 20 in and say "One token please", the clerk goes "Don't got change". I said "Well, I used all my rides on my student MetroCard, and this is the only bill I got, so you wanna buzz me in?" She replied, "No." I peered into the booth and her cash drawer was open, $100 dollars worth of 1's were on the counter, and then a $hitload of 5's and 10's were in there. I go, "What the hell is that in the drawer?" She replied, "Go upstairs and get change." Now anyone in New York City KNOWS that it is hard to get change in a store without buying anything. So I walked uptown, and went into a bank on 69st and got my change. I walked to 72st and got a single ride MetroCard from a machine and went home. It's times like these when I'm all for booth closings, no offense to the S/A's on the board here. But this isn't the first time where something like this has happened to me. I've witnessed it happen to other people too.
Sorry, none of the 66th Street booths are on the hit list.
Maybe the money in the drawer belonged to the Lunch Relief
or the clerk which was incoming (and wasn't hers to barter out)..
How did the people before you's transaction get done?
Many token booth clerks think they're God inside those well protected booths. Why not report her?
My favorite was the one at 86th Street 1/9 who insisted, at about 9:45 on a Monday morning, that "there's nothing wrong with the trains" after a half hour gap in southbound local service.
LOL.
Want to do something really funny? When the Moronic Transportation Authority cut station agent staffing levels during the AM rush hour (long before MVM's, Newkirk Ave on my favorite line had TWO S/A's on duty from 7 AM to 9:30 AM.), I did something outrageous. The first days after they cut the second agent out, and made horribly long lines, I would arm myself with $17 in nickels, put them through the slot and ask the clerk for a 7 day Unlimited. That's right, he would call his supervisor and was told to count the 340 nickels or 170 dimes, depending on my mood, and give me my 7 day card. And of all days I would do this, you guessed it, it would have to be a Monday at 7:20 AM when the line was OUTSIDE the control house. It took the S/A about 15 minutes and 3 express trains passing by to count ALL of my change. Hey, as long as it's U.S. Currency, nothing is said about giving 1,700 or 6,300 pennies either.
I don't believe your story. 15 minutes??? The people behind you would have killed you. Keep dreaming.
---Brian
I think that somewhere there are “reasonableness tests” for payment, so you can’t protest the iniquities of the IRS by turning up on their doorstep with a wagon full of pennies.
I understand your frustration, but the people to take it out on are not the station agent who is left, nor the people behind you in line. Send a polite, but firm letter to Jay street telling them how you believe this decision is not in the interests of the passengers, and asking for an explanation.
John
Right on. Not only did you show those standing behind you what selfish, feeble minded person you are, but you've also been able to show the group what a moron you are. Best of luck getting your teeth kicked in when you try some stunt like that again.
Right on. Not only did you show those standing behind you what a selfish, feeble minded person you are, but you've also been able to show the group what a moron you are. Best of luck getting your teeth kicked in when you try some stunt like that again.
Good one! Stick it to the man!
You know something? Coming from you the above statement doesn't suprise me one bit.
Hopefully one day "The Man" will stick it to you really good.
$17 in nickels at Newkirk Av, Kool-D? And at 7:20AM LOL, I'm really surprised you didn't get your ass kicked there b/c the lines do get real long and people get impatient VERY EASILY there. I agree it was real stupid to cut the 2nd station agent at all times, especially the AM rush hour.
Why is it stupid to cut the secound token booth?
People will realize real soon to buy there metrocards in advanced.
People will change thier habits. For those who are in two fare zones we make sure we have money on our cards prior to leaving the house. Those who wish not to wait in line will do the same
Go back to Kool-D's post, read my response again and you'll see how it makes sense. His story took place BEFORE the MVM's were introduced.
She probably doesn't know how to count ;-). Seriously, some B/C's are just snotty and are too lazy to count change for one fare and didn't she know that you recieve *NO MORE*! than $6 change from the machine :-\. I don't know what to tell you, sometimes this just happens and I think the B/C was a dumbass for making you go outside for change and you're right, it IS HARD to get change w/o buying something.
Maybe that clerk could pick up a part-time job at the Red Caboose.
You should have taken the clerk's badge number and written away to the station manager and/or the MTA public affairs office. I often ask for change of a $20 for the MVMs (because I don't want to use my credit card or I don't want to get back $1 coins as change) and, from what other S/As have posted here, I am entitled to get change. In fact, I usually do. The S/A was required to give you the token and provide you change for your purchase.
--Mark
mark and Clayton- we do give change. A person coming to the window might see change in the booth. Let me try to explain:
1- In certain booths, and I do not know if this booth is one of them, we have to make two deposits during our shift. The money he sawe mgith be the first deposit.
2- We also have to use our judgement-- if we work the booth on a regular basis we know how people pay. If a person gives us a twenty and buys one token it is a big drain our our change. If our change is low we have the right to decline to give change. The way to "Force us to give change: is to buy one token. You can even buy one and then ask for another "one token"
I encounter the same thing in my student movie job. Tickets are $3, but a good number of students fresh from the ATM will bring forth their 20's and treat the Film Series like their own personal change machine. Normally the cashier just gives them "the look", but there have been times when all our change has been run out after like just 5 people.
Once the cashier failed to show and I had to take $ w/o any change on hand. My responce to the 20-dollar people was to simply cut all those w/ exact change to the front of the line, then the ppl w/ 5's and then the people with 10's and finally the people w/ 20's. I also tried to give change to the 20 people all in ones.
Alot of times in alot of booths, clerks are short on small bills and have a alot of $20 bills. The problem is if alot of people come by with $20 bills and want 1 or 2 tokens or a $3 card or break a $20 for a fun pass, the clerk is going to run out of small bills to work with. A hundred singles is nice to have. But if 5 people come by each with a $20 bill asking for 2 tokens, the singles will be gone in 5 transactions. Would you prefer the clerk asking you to "Break the bill upstairs!" or ask "Do you have something smaller?"
If you ever come to a MVM at a station that no longer has a clerk working there with a $20 bill to get a single ride card, you're not going to be get on the subway there. MVM's give up to $6 change in any transaction. The only way you'll get into the station is if someone is there selling swipes. Maybe the clerk was over reacting. But go to a bodega and buy a bottle of soda with a $20 bill, you might get the same reaction.
Alot of times in alot of booths, clerks are short on small bills and have a alot of $20 bills. The problem is if alot of people come by with $20 bills and want 1 or 2 tokens or a $3 card or break a $20 for a fun pass, the clerk is going to run out of small bills to work with.
Blame banks. To make things more convenient for themselves, they stock ATM's with nothing but $20 bills.
Around the time, about 1:45 PM Clayton could have gone to a bank teller and broken the $20 bill there.
Not necessarily- a lot of banks won't give you change unless you have an account there. They say it's done "strictly as a courtesy", meaning the tellers do it if they're in the mood, or if they didn't have a fight with their significant other the night before, or if you don't look like an ex.
Just go to the window. Explain that you just came from the AVM and you meed a large bill changed. Show them the receipt if needed.
$20 bills is the bill used the most so that's why it is done like that.
Actually the $1 is the most circulated bill.
It goes progressively downward from there, with the exception that the $2 bill is the least used, and the $50 is the second least.
The $20 is therefore exactly in the middle. There are three bills (1, 5, 10) circulated more, and three bills (100, 50, 2) less.
This doesn't take into account obsolete bills above $100 which almost certainly have circulations less than the $2 bill and are of course, no longer printed (the $2 bill still is).
Actually, it's a function of ATM's. They come in two varieties, one bin and two bin. Banks that stock 5's & 10's have two bin machines. Banks that only have the ATM's dispensing 20's are either one bin ATM's or banks that have decided not to issue anything else.
Actually, it's a function of ATM's. They come in two varieties, one bin and two bin. Banks that stock 5's & 10's have two bin machines. Banks that only have the ATM's dispensing 20's are either one bin ATM's or banks that have decided not to issue anything else.
I've used many different ATM's over the years, in all different places, and I cannot recall the last time I saw one dispensing anything except Jacksons.
Most machines nowadays are two-bin machines, but in order to minimize the frequency of filling they are both filled with $20 bills. There are machines - my credit union in North Carolina has some - that can dispense multiple combinations. I haven't had occasion to stop there in a couple of years (there's a State Employees CU machine much nearer my home that has reciprocity with our CU so I don't get hit with fees) but when I last used the Coastal FCU machine it could still dispense the exact amount you chose to withdraw, in any combination of paper money and coins, as long as you did not exceed 19 pieces of paper money or more than 30 coins (or something like that - don't remember the specifics any longer and I'm too lazy to try and find a prior SubTalk post when I detailed it from some reference info that I had handy at the time). The machine stocked $1, $5, $10, $20, $50, and $100 bills, and all coins from the penny through the dollar. Want $281.98? You could get it any one of a number of ways, although the machine's default would be two $100, one $50, one $20, one $10, one dollar coin, one half dollar, one quarter, two dimes, and three pennies - the simplest possible. A menu screen would offer up to five choices to choose from, or you could specify your own combination.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Citibank was dispensing 10's and 20's as recently as two years ago (last time i used a citibank atm)
Citibank was dispensing 10's and 20's as recently as two years ago (last time i used a citibank atm)
I generally charge whatever i can (get cash back)
To continue with the MVMs and change: If you put in a $20- and want a $67 card it will ask if you want a $20 card and most just press OK and complainw hent hey "lose their change". I check the card and advsie it has $20. I explain the machine only gives $6 in change and offer an envelope.
To continue with the MVMs and change: If you put in a $20- and want a $67 card it will ask if you want a $20 card and most just press OK and complain when they "lose their change". I check the card and advsie it has $20. I explain the machine only gives $6 in change and offer an envelope.
Wow I have to try that.
Pur in $20
get $67 wow what a deal
;i
huh?
As Clerks, we're supposed to be couteous to the Customer. I can't explain the reaction of the Clerk at 66th St because I wasn't there. Was she overreacting? I don't know. But I do know, booths only have a finite supply of money, and the paying passenger doesn't understand that. Between small purchases at booth and change for the MVMs, we'll eventually run out of small bills. I've even run out of quarters. If I don't have to change to make, then I'll have to ask for exact change or a smaller bill. It's not the Clerk's fault they don't have the money to spare.
Try giving out dollar coins. I do it for those who request them, give it to others for the machines. There are those who don't believe them to be money, so I wind up bagging them at the end of the night.
You think $20 for two tokens is bad, I've had folks want to buy two tokens with $50 and $100 bills. I have to turn them away, because I follow Transit Procedures, which says accept $50s for purchases of $30 and $100 for purchases of $63 or more. They don't understand that and get upset, and say "this all that I have". Customers will go away muttering obscenties.
Sometimes, I will take big bills anyway depending on what they purchase, but I show them to the sign regarding purchases. Courtesy comes first!
-Stef
I've always wondered about companies and agencies that make "policies" about what bills to accept, and to refuse. Both the $50 and $100 bills say "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE."
I wonder if anyone has challenged (keeping this on topic) the NYCTA's right to refuse a $100 bill for even one token (assuming the change was on hand).
Since the token or MetroCard is purchased before use, no debt has been incurred so large bills (or pennies) can be refused.
Your question does apply to a transit system with exit swipes -- or, for that matter, to taxis.
Weather and traffic together....whether a $100 note not printed on a inkject printer is negotiable with TA is up to Treasury and Supreme Court. By law, U.S. currency is a matter of negotiability and standard...no one has any legal right to refuse any denomination. The one option is vending machines....set for quarters, 1/5/10/20 bills. Excuse is mechanical storage........have you seen any vending machines set to take fives???? (pays singles back in dollar coins.) Only Post Office contractors!!! CI Peter
And slot machines
I suggest later today after you announce the weather, go to the corner deli and buy a bottle of soda or cup of coffee with a $50 bill and let us know what the cashier tells you.
I just did that, based on this post. Went to the store on the corner and bought a soda w/a fifty. No problem at all. Didn't even raise an eyebrow. Oh, the cashier did say something...Thank You.
Peace,
ANDEE
As a Station Agent, I have to function under rules imposed by manaagement or risk suuspension oir loss of my job. Same appleis to Douce man and Stef. I was brought up to respect authority. A booth ahs limited funds unless you are talking about a rare excepiton such as Times Square (including Port Authority), Grand Central, etc.
We must use our judgment as to if we can give change. We can call the supervisor to bring change, but a supervisor is not a genie int he bottle. Once therfe was one supervisor covering the 1 from 125 to 242 and the 2 from 110 Lenox to 241. It took 90 minuted for the supervisor to arrive by subway. let's say I asked for change-- I would have to wait for the supervisor to arrive.
if you wish us to take %50 and $100 for all transacations call downtown!~ Even McDonalds refuses %50 and $100.
I know you do not respect authority but S/As must or face discipline. We never know if a supervisor or manager is lurkingn nearby readyt o pounce when we goof.I did have a managhr pop out of nothiug at a station and won the incident by quoting Transit Bulletins (Memos).
I'll take your %50 or %100 if you pay my suspension and my salary when terminated due to disicpline record.
The progression is :1 day, 5 days, 2 weeks, 30 days, good bye.
I want to keep my job, whatever they have us do- in or out of the booth.
>>>I know you do not respect authority....<<<
You are dead wrong, Peggy. What nerve. You know nothing about me and don't ever presume to.
You don't have to worry about me anyway, I haven't had to use a token booth since 1998.
I was merely testing Douce Mans challenge of going to the store with a 50 to buy a soda and see what happens. What does any of this have to do with your rant?
Peace,
ANDEE
Let's not get into a shouting match! I get that at work now with people who have nothing but big bills and want 1 token.
Actually I was asking Todd Glickman that question. And elsewhere he answered me. But Peggy was right. There are rules that we agents follow. And if you ever visit me while I'm at work, I'll be happy to show you the bulletin that states I can't accept $50 and $100 bills.
Acually I could accept them. $50 bills if the single transaction is for $30 or more. Or a $100 bill if the single traction is for $63 or more. The reason for not accepting large bills is so that an agent doesn't have to ask a customer "Do you have anything smaller? I'm low on small bills" And unlike Clayton who started this thread, I'm not able to leave the booth to visit the bank during the day to break $20 bills to have $1 and $5 bills to work with.
Not subway, but same situation at a streetcar museum.
Last Sunday I got to be the Dispatcher at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum. We have an admissions policy and the cashier (or the Dispatcher if no cashier) handles the patrons.
Our cash register has a $100.00 change fund. This tends to be sufficient, as most of the bills presented are 20's. We also take plastic, and have a $10.00 minimum for credit card transactions. The Dispatcher has a $300.00 cash in his drawer, not available to a cashier if the Dispatcher is not in the office.
Here's what happened.
A man walks up to the window, I greet him and ask "how many in your party". He replies "myself and my son" "How old is your son?" "4".
"That will be $9.00"
The man pulls a C note from his wallet. I reply "I'm sorry, I can't take that. Do you have anything smaller?" "Can I put it on my credit card?" (Remember our $10.00 minimum).
Snap decision time (joys of authority). I take the card, put it through the reader, which accepts the $9.00 amount.
Hand the man the two tokens (adult and child) and his Visitor Guide, mention our unlimited rides for your admission policy.
The customer is our lifeblood. Keep him happy.
The man and his son spent most of the day at the museum, rode all the cars we had in service several times and dropped most of the C note in the Museum Store.
His small son didn't want to leave. I suspect they will visit us again.
Speaking as someone involved in retailing for the past 30 years:
You did the right thing, even though minimums are a violation of issuer policy.
Peace,
ANDEE
I agree: An old adage from MBA school -- "It's 10 times easier to keep an existing customer than find a new one."
You're talking about one incident with one person one time. We agents in the booth get several people every day who want 1 token with a $20 bill. Not always because they need to get home and the only bill they have is a $20 or bigger. Sometimes they just want to break a bill so that they don't have to break it at the deli upstairs.
Basically if I have the small bills, I will sell 1 token to a customer with a $20 bill. If the customer wants to break a bill so they can buy a fun pass at the MVM, I will also give them 4 dollar coins if I have them. However sometimes I have to politely turn down someone who just wants a $20 bill broken. Otherwise I will have to tell customers after them I don't have the bills to work with. I had them at one point. But people came to the booth with $20 bills and the bills I had were used up. Agents in the booth are not alone. On weekends I get people from the upstairs deli who need small bills for them to work with.
So, how much of a bank do you start with? Do you have to bring a bank with you (that sounds dangerous in some places) or is it delivered to a locked drawer for each agent or something? I mean, those change bills have to get down there somehow! I could see where you could easily use up $500 in singles! I think the coins are easier to handle from the register side of the counter.
Elias
On the average a booth has a $300 cash bank. Busier places have more and quieter places less. Sometimes an agent will stop at the bank to cash in large bills for small bills. But the agent does so at their own risk. The bank stays at the booth at all times. Before an agent is relieved the next agent relieving them has to find in the booth X amount of token at $1.50 each and a Y amount of money. Coins would be easier for us to use. But most customers do not want dollar coins.
But most customers do not want dollar coins.
Which is really a shame since, once someone finds out how much easier they are to use, they prefer them. We travel to Canada on at least an annual basis and have been using their dollar and two dollar coins for years... much easier than paper for the small amounts. The reason they had a successful transition to coins was that they simply stopped printing the paper dollars... once our government decides to do the same, we'll transition too, and all but a stubborn few (probably the same stubborn few who insist that the token is the only way to go) will wonder why we didn't do it sooner.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Canada has $2 coins?
Since 1996... they look like overgrown Parkway tokens.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Canada still uses the $1 Loonies?
Yes, it does... don't happen to have a scan of them though :-)
Canadians never had an issue with the $2 bill like Americans seem to have, so the $2 coin was a natural. They also planned a $5 coin (to have been introduced in 2000 or 2001, IIRC) but decided against issuing that one yet... it exists, but only in proof sets.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The EURO is the same way, the smallest EURO note is E5.00
The UK has had pound coins since 1982 and, as in Canada, the pound notes were withdrawn once enough pound coins were in circulation. Now we have two-pound coins as well (like the Canadian $2 and the two-euro coins, they have the two different metals). The two-pound coins don't circulate that much - maybe because there never was a two-pound note - and in my experience it's mostly small shopkeepers that give them out. The big supermarkets don't, for some reason. The London Underground (to get us back on-topic) was alleged to be the main proponent of the pound coin, since even back in 1982 some fares were getting over one pound, and machines to take notes are less reliable than ones to take coins.
I have never understood Americans' extreme reluctance to accept any monetary innovations. I'm very happy to get dollar coins in change from an MVM - but then I'm not an American. I'd love to see a $2 bill before I die, too - in 35 years of travelling to the USA I've never seen one!
I'd love to see a $2 bill before I die, too - in 35 years of travelling to the USA I've never seen one!
That's simple.... go to a bank and ask for one!
Elias
That's simple.... go to a bank and ask for one!
Good luck finding one at a bank... I wanted to get some before we went on vacation last year and had to go to five banks before I found any... and had to go to two more before I found as many as I wanted. My credit union will order them for me, given two week's notice - as long as I'm willing to take $1000 worth and promise not to bring them back :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You get one for every dollar bill you give them
to add to what my colleague has posted:We look for x tokens and y money. Ler me try this:
we are looking for 500 tokens and $300.00 bank.
we find 400 tokens. That means we need $300.00 plus $150.00 for the tokens that we do not have( because they were sold). Now let's say we have $500.00 that means the $50.00 is money fur Metrocards that were sold.
of course, we also have to see how many tokens we pulled from our wheels.
All this info can be found by us on the computer screen. Towards the end of the day,we have to close and print our report and preapre our bag (deposit of money and/or tokens [yes- we can deposit tokens since oen token is the same as $1.50] and then count the board to see if we are even, over or short. if our relief finds we are short we must pay.)
And some subtalkers think all we do is talk on the phone!
Coins would be easier for us to use. But most customers do not want dollar coins.
So, eliminate the Dollar bills from the booth. If someone comes to a token booth, they know that change will be in coins. If they don't want the coins, they can leave themn behind.
: ) Elias
Canada did the smart thing. When the dollar coin was issued, the bill was no longer issued. It continued to be accepted, but once deposited in the bank, it was returned to the national bank and removed from issue. Eventually there were no more dollar bills in use.
The US Treasury won't go that route. That's why every attempt to issue a dollar coin has been a failure. Since the $1 bill remains in circulation, nobody wants or uses the earlier SBA coin or the golden coin.
SBA coin or the golden coin.
What the Heck? Can't you spell Sakakawea!
Which *is* the correct spelling in North Dakota (just check a map)
The spelling of her name has always been open for debate, but even you you do use the more complicated spelling, it still may support this pronounciation.
Elias
Heck, I like the dollar coins. Whenever I get one it goes into a piggy bank (I also buy some at the bank when cashing my paycheck) and use them for my vacation fund. A few at a time, you don't miss the money, and come vacation time your out of pocket expenditures are greatly reduced oe even eliminated. A few years back, we saved ALL coin for 2.5 years and spent it on a 2 week Hawaii holiday. It's like 2 weeks in paradise, FREE
"Thank you, we appreciate your business."
Now do it again today and tomorrow at the same store and let me know if they say the same.
>>> Both the $50 and $100 bills say "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE." <<<
Todd;
You are taking the wrong meaning. Those are Federal Reserve notes, and as such they are "as good as gold" so no one can refuse them saying they want to be paid in real money, i.e. gold or silver. Remember there was a time when United States money was backed by precious metals, with coins made out of silver, with the face amount roughly equivalent to silver content, and father back, $20.00, $50.00 and $100.00 gold pieces. Then the government issued "gold certificates" in total amounts equal to the gold held at Fort Knox, and denied American citizens the right to privately own gold. The government also issued $1.00, $2.00, $5.00 and $10.00 silver certificates backed by silver owned by the U.S. government. These gold and silver certificates had the words legal tender etc. on them.
In order to expand the money supply the government authorized the circulation of Federal Reserve notes, backed by the full faith and credit of the United States, but not by either gold or silver They looked exactly like their predecessor gold and silver certificates, but have the words "Federal Reserve Note" on them rather than "Gold Certificate" or "Silver Certificate". It was decreed that those notes were legal tender for all debts. The creditor could not insist on being paid in either silver or gold, or even silver or gold certificates, and instead had to accept the so called "fiat money."
So when you see those words on a $100.00 or $50.00 bill, it does not mean that particular bill has to be accepted, but that a creditor cannot refuse Federal Reserve notes as not being real money.
Tom
Alot of times in alot of booths, clerks are short on small bills and have a alot of $20 bills. The problem is if alot of people come by with $20 bills and want 1 or 2 tokens or a $3 card or break a $20 for a fun pass, the clerk is going to run out of small bills to work with. A hundred singles is nice to have. But if 5 people come by each with a $20 bill asking for 2 tokens, the singles will be gone in 5 transactions. Would you prefer the clerk asking you to "Break the bill upstairs!" or ask "Do you have something smaller?"
I sell wine here at the Abbey, and I always give Dollar Coins as change.
I can fit 100 of these in the till, you could stuff $50. in bills in there. They may be a little heavier... but they take a lot less space and are easier and faster to count.
At least my customers here in North Dakota seem pleased to have them and wonder why other stores do not use them too.
[Also my business manager comes to clear out the till, and would always leave me short of singles, he never bothers my coins.]
: ) Elias
I have NEVER had that happen to me where a token booth clerk said that they had no change. It wouldn't happen to me since I use a MetroCard. I can refill the MetroCard at a machine where they take cash, a debit card or a credit card. As it so happens I ALWAYS keep small bills and change with me anyway just in case. Should my MetroCard expire, I can always trade it for a fresh MetroCard and have the remaining rides transfered onto the new card.
#3 West End Jeff
A bunch of us have been talking about doing a Field Trip despire the cold chill in the air.
Monday is a holiday for many, so we've decided to do HBLR, the new north branch to Hoboken. After we may do the rest of HBLR or go to the Newark City Subway and ride the same cars on that line.
Date: Monday January 20th
Time: 12:15 at 33rd Street PATH station in Manhattan
Alternate meeting point is PATH's Pavonia-Newport station (we want to do HBLR coming into Hoboken for the photo op). My apology to those I previously said to meet at Exchange Place (it's closed).
Mr t__:^)
The BMTman suggested, in honor of MLK Day, dinner at Ponderosa on MLK Drive. I strongly advise against it :).
Why not dinner at the Ponderosa ?
See the grin after his post? He's being cute... :)
Why not dinner at the Ponderosa ?
Maybe it was an off-day, but on a previous visit with BMTman and some others, it didn't quite meet the standards of other Ponderosas. Great jukebox, though.
Well IMO, I'll give the Ponderosa a try with the gang...gotta be
better then the visit of the 3/4 toners to "Boulder Creek" at
Spring Creek in Brooklyn. The service sucked ... Who gives you
a baked potatoe with sour cream & butter in the potatoe???
Weren't for the camaraderie, the evening would have been a fooking
total waste.
;-) Sparky
Not to mention the "8 oz" hamburger; the weight must have included the plate! (The Boulder Creek on 20 Ave is much better, BTW)
I'll give the Pondegrosa a second try, if only to be able to play Sanchez on the jukebox. But on the first visit, even the ice cream didn't taste good :(.
***"Not to mention the "8 oz" hamburger; the weight must have included the plate!"***
If burgers are your thing, not the $41 variety, try Jackson Hole
on Astoria Boulevard, in the Art Deco Airport Diner.
;-) Sparky
Oh god, those burgers kick %$#& @ss ...
Got one by my place. Two as a matter of fact. One at E 64 St and 2 Ave and 3 Ave and E 85 St. Nothing tops a Jackson Hole burger.
I knew there were more locations then Astoria for Jackson Hole,
but youthful enough to cheerish the "art-deco" when it was the
IN THING. :-)
~Sparky
Sparky, relax....keep in mind the Boulder Creek was only opened one week prior to our arrival...gotta cut the place some slack...
Dougie, enjoy ... I'll pass.
;-) Sparky
you live in a real city and contemplate food at some suburban francise outlet. SHAME. your Metrocard is revoked.
Sounds like fun! I'll be sure to miss it :-)
You party pooper!
I'll be there as far as I know. Just one question: is the meeting place outside fare control at the back of 33rd, or at the front of the platform to be near the railfan window?
I would suggest end of track, just before you walk down the platforms.
I take that to mean the uptown end, at 33rd Street by the card machines. Am I correct?
Now I hope I CAN go. The boy developed a virus and 104 fever, and nobody TOLD me that spoon on the counter I tasted my Prego sauce with last night was last used by HIM! The taste of bubble-gum Tylenol tipped me off. Now I'm worried sick- literally. I feel OK now, but like I'm awaiting execution.
So I'm hoping against hope I don't get it- I don't get sick easily or often- at least physically. But if I don't show up Monday, you'll know why. We'll BOTH be sitting home watching videos!
Howard, I wish you well !
Yes, the uptown side just beyond the end of the tracks.
I was originally thinking about Staten Island on Monday, but nah, what the heck, I may just be there. Never rode HBLR before, so it would be a good opportunity.
As for the cold weather, I am lovin it. The key is you gotta keep moving, because standing out in it can be brutal, especially for that bus that's always running late. :-0
John it will be good to see you again. I think you'll enjoy the light rail cars too. They are smooth & quite. Nice to ride along the streets without having to smell diesel fumes.
Some of us have to work for a living :-(
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Or don't have money to spare for the trip.
Maybe I'll come. I'm staying at the Hotel Pennsylvania, just down the block. Where in the PATH station are you meeting?
Michael
End of track, just before you walk down to the platforms.
I'll be stopping at the Transit Museum Store at Grand Central on
Monday about 11:15 till 11:45 prior to joining the group at PATH.
;-) Sparky
Who here will be going?
Boston's MBTA has suspended service on the E line after a loose bolt was discovered in the articulated section of one of the Kinki-S cars. For the complete story, see:
http://www.boston.com/news/daily/15/eline.htm
(Perhaps they should bring out the Breda cars!!!)
Yeah I was caught up in that this morning. They have enough cars for off-peak service, but not for rush hour service.
The Bredas are in constant testing mode -- they can been seen most off-peak hours with "NOT IN SERVICE" on the destination signs. The Massachusetts Department of Energy and Transportation still wants more tests done. The lastest word on possible approval is mid-February.
Well all I can say is the MBTA shops ARE NOT keepin up on regular Preventive Maintence. They are running the cars into the ground. More cars are OOS due to one problem or another making the active fleet smaller and smaller. This lack of maintence is in response to the DTE taking the Type 8's OOS. So if enough of the fleet is OOS that will put presure on DTE to accept them for service.
I just got off a nb (B). But before I did, we sat at 7 Av for about five minutes. Then, at 59 St - Columbus Circle, I heard a announcement about "all uptown A service running on the local track." I assume that is why we had to sit at 7 Av for so long, but does anyone know what was going on with the 8th Av express tracks?
Take Pride,
Brian
No, but there were problems elsewhere.
Around 5:15, I went from 42nd to 14th on the BMT, and a W followed by a circle-Q went local. (The R behind them had a brown/gold/orange R bullet up front.) The circle-Q met a crowded diamond-Q on the express track, and the diamond-Q pulled out at the same time as the R, so I think it continued express. This was due to signal problems at Prince Street, according to the announcements.
About an hour later, there was extreme clumping on the 1/9. I was on a 3 that passed one or two locals between 14th and 34th and another three locals between 42nd and 59th(!) -- and the platform and 72nd was empty, so there must have been another local in front of that pack.
But I don't know about the IND. Sorry. Maybe there were problems in lower Manhattan and A trains were being rerouted via Rutgers, which would force them onto the local track at W4. I'm surprised your B went local.
Actually B & C service were running up the express from 59th to 125th. 6:17 C Euclid had BIE. Signal problem found to be due to a broken rail in the middle of the station. Service was running slowly but normally by 8:45 AM.
Um, I was on the (B) train at 5:20pm. I'm talking about an afternoon problem, not a morning problem.
Sorry - I didn't hear anything about that - yet
Sorry - I didn't hear anything about that - yet
There were 2 incidents about that time. A South-bound A with door trouble at 59th St and a Smoke condition on the uptown express track around 42nd St.
Actually B & C service were running up the express from 59th to 125th. 6:17 C Euclid had BIE. Signal problem found to be due to a broken rail in the middle of the 110 St. station. Service was running slowly but normally by 8:45 AM.
I was at the A platform at Penn station today about 8:30am, all trains uptown were running on the express, including C's AND E's. I had a scanner and they said a track condition up north. I dont remember much else, as I was tired and I took a downtown A.
I'd be tired too if I was a Mets fan.
I know I'm tired of seeing the Mets flush too many seasons down the crapper. My new name for Shea is The Toilet Bowl.
I saw the news & they said there was a broken rail at 110 St and service btw 59 St and 125 St was severely disrupted.
Does anyone know at what time does limited E train service from 179 St begin? I believe there are four E trains that depart from there daily, but I can't remember what time do they depart.
I believe these are morning rush hour trips.
I know, but I need to know what time in the morning rush hour they depart from 179.
0712
0731
0751
0811
This has probably been postedbefore, but please indulge me anyway:
Does the 179 St E service in the morning rush stop at all stations between 179 St and Union Turnpike-Kew Gardens, or does it run on the express track and skip stations like 169 St and Van Wyck Blvd (Sutphin-Hillside is also a local stop, isn't it?)?
It runs express. I usually take an E from Sutphin and we sometimes have to wait just before Briarwood Van Wyck to let an E from 179 St pass on the express track.
Also...If a F train is laying up on the Brooklyn bound express track, then the E from 179 will stop at 169. It will switch over to express tracks after stopping at Parsons Blvd.
Thank you, Alex L. for posting the times.
The one 179th-bound E train I rode switched to the local track at 75th Avenue, like the F. The C/R had been announcing it would run on the F after 71st in advance, and announced the next stop after 71st as 75th, so this wasn't sprung on him at the last second. I don't know if they all run local.
Mornings may be different. I live in Manhattan; I'm not going to wake up early enough to shlep out well into Queens in time to catch one of the four E's from 179th.
All four AM E's from 179 run express from 179-Queens Plaza except the 0712 which runs express after Parsons Blvd. (has to go around the laying-up F at 169 St.)
So, in a very very limited sense, express service at rush hour has been restored to the Hillside Av line, while other customers still get their cake too.
In a very limited sense, yes. In a perfect world, rush hour E's would go all the way to Far Rockaway like they used to, with express service in Bklyn. In those days, during the rush, the E was thye express in Brooklyn, there was no C, and the A was the local.
Well, look at the bright side: the E never goes outdoors...
That's actually to the good, as it means the E is unaffected by weather and I can ALWAYS get home (or at least close to home) from work! But I still miss the E to the ocean, though.
I can sympathize.
With the exception of yards, that was true of the entire IND system until the mid '50s when the A poked its nose above ground and the D slithered up the Culver Iron work. Then all hell broke loose with the Christy connection.
avid
Then it started getting confused and thought it was the BMT's younger brother...LOL
Wasn't it the case that the arnines originally did not have windshield wipers and had to retrofitted for the A and D extensions outdoors?
According to Fischler's book, yes. Apparently trains wouldn't be on the Smith-9th viaduct long enough for windshield wipers to be a factor.
One would think it would strange to hear those traction motors over Liberty and McDonald Avenues, and along the Brighton ROW. But the Standards and Triplexes that ran on those lines for years sounded virtually the same.
The 1/9s were the only rolling stock on the Culver el from 1954 to '66, when the R32s came out. But they stuck around on the D, and later F, in diminishing numbers through mid-'76, interspersed with everything from 32s to 46s. There's nothing like standing on the Coney overpass and seeing an R6 across the platform from a 46- something you could do for only a few months.
By 1956, R10s were already a fixture on the A, so you'd only hear those pre-war traction motors on rush-hour Es and midday H shuttles. One great regret I have is to have never been able to ride one over the Bay; the sound must've been incredible.
By 1967 and Christie, the Brighton line had become heavily associated with 27/30s and 32s, so the 1/9s seemed out of place there. They strained loudly climbing the Manny B, but handled the embankment express with great speed- if not grace.
However in the '70s R-1/9s were all over the Eastern Division, on lines like the KK, QJ, and M. Also these cars stayed on Queens Blvd. right to the end. I rode R-7a's and R-9s in February and March of 1977. The world has turned over many times, since then. :-)
Interesting how you mentioned that R-32's appeared on the D-Culver as early as 1966!!!
I recall in the mid 1970's, the F-Culver running the gamut from pre-war IND cars to a few R-32's, MANY slants, R-44's, and very seldon R-40m/42's. Oh yeah, then the 46's came as well.
Tony
Yup. They didn't have headlights either until the 1950's.
Not quite. The Smith-9th viaduct was built in 1933 as an original IND structure. It's only because of the area's topography that it was done this way, similar to the Broadway local temporarily coming outside to pass over the Manhattan Valley. Until the eighties, both Smith-9th and 4th Avenue had those distinct black-on-white station signs, which looked quite strange outdoors. You may be able to see some photos in the Rolling Stock section.
There was also the outdoor ROW connecting the 1939-40 Worlds Fair to Forest Hills through the Jamaica Yards and what is now part of the Van Wyck ROW. Shame it was dismantled 19 years before my birth.
Being brought up in northeast Queens (and my folks in the Bronx), we all thought of the IND as being strictly underground. So it was quite startling whenever we would see an R1-9 crossing the trestles over the Belt Parkway by Aqueduct and Coney Island. In the sixties, most in-service equipment you'd see passing over Queens highways would be R-33/36WFs and 27/30s.
>>"Until the eighties, both Smith-9th and 4th Avenue had those distinct black-on-white station signs, which looked quite strange outdoors. You may be able to see some photos in the Rolling Stock section."<<
Oh, you're talking about those signs with 'FOURTH AV', yeah they weren't taken down and replaced until the mid 90's.
Besides Smith-9 St and 4 Av, both the Rockaway branch and Lefferts Blvd branches on the A is strictly IND and run outdoors.
Besides Smith-9 St and 4 Av, both the Rockaway branch and Lefferts Blvd branches on the A is strictly IND and run outdoors.
Correct. But they weren't part of the original, pre-war IND.
I know the Rockaway branch is not pre war IND; its from 1958.
Actually 1956. The Liberty Ave portion was formerly part of the BMT. The Rockaway ROW opened for IND service about 6 months after service from Euclid to Lefferts commenced.
Thanks for the corrections.
> You may be able to see some photos in the Rolling Stock section.
You don't have to search the rolling stock photos to find pictures of a particular station, any more.
Just go to the various line by line sections-- start in the IRT, BMT, or IND sections-- each station is now on its own page with ALL of the photos of that station shown.
Just like the car roster pages will show you the photos by car type, these will show you the photos by location.
I've been upgrading the various databases behind the scenes to allow for searches like this.
David, great job! I've noticed the change. Now when I am looking for a particular station photo, I don't have to wait for the whole page of the line load with it.
It's a great upgrade!
One slight observation:
Several photos of R33WF singles making rare forays on the B division like this one at Metropolitan/Jamaica and this one at 57th/6th are not listed amongst the other pics at those particular stations.
Just lettin' you know.
Wow those are great photos!
Here's a few more:
R33 @ Alabama Ave:
R33 @ Sutphin/Jamaica:
R33 @ Beach 90th St:
More recent R33 @ Bedford/Nostrand IND:
Those must be fan trips, right? There are passengers on those trains..hey, don't tell me Selkirk was right. *L*
Yep, fantrips.
I checked the first one out, r33-9327b.jpg, it's on the page, it's the first one on the first row. The second one, r33-9333.jpg is the 3rd one on the 2nd row.
That might change if I decide to change the sort order-- but they're there.
Sutphin Blvd-Hillside IS in fact a local stop. All the special E's normally run on the express track to Manhattan.
How bout TO 179 St in the evening rush?
To 179 from WTC:
1708 arrives 1801
1728 arrives 1821
1840 arrives 1925
1920 arrives 2005
And my understand is that those run LOCAL east of 71st Avenue.
It looks like the first two run local and the last two run express -- compare the running times. (I can confirm that the second one runs local, or at least it did the day I rode it.)
AFAIK, all the 179th Street E line extras run local east of Continetal Ave/Forest Hills.
According to the timetable, the first two are local and the second two are express. Of course, it also says that all four AM runs are local, so...
In reviewing the 1948 system map on this site, it appears that there is an omission in the service listings. I cannot find any mention of the Culver line. I also noted this possible service omission on one of the maps on display at the Transit Museum (obviously prior to the renovation project). Anyone have a possible explanation?
I know the map. I believe it was just an oversight by those who put the map toegther--no greater mystery than that.
I have a copy of a 8/47 map that DOES include the Culver line as part of the BMT system.
Gents,
IIRC, wasn't there a station map with the lines color coded by division,
not line [IND = red, IRT = blue, BMT = yellow] in the
late forties or early fifties showing the Culver as RED from
Ditmas south to Coney Island, years prior to the final connection?
;-) Sparky
John, I think you misunderstood the question. The Culver Line route shows up on the map, just as you indicated. However, when you go to the listings of service provided, there is nothing under either BMT or IND. In 1948, there should have been nothing under IND, because the connection from Ditmas to the Church Ave IND tunnel hadn't been opened. The Culver line did run on the BMT as a local on 4th Ave. and through the Nassau Street loop, as I recall. I think Paul is right, and it is just an erroneous omission on the service listings.
I stand corrected as to the listing of services. I do not remember a
listing of service as on the current maps, those years though.
;-) Sparky
There is a Hagstrom Brooklyn map from (IIRC) the mid-forties, showing the Culver as joint BMT-IND (BMT and IND line indicator side by side) but this was just Hagstrom being aggressive with future changes.
I don't think I have it anymore, but my first Suffolk County Atlas that I got in 1971 had umbuilt highways and a s---load of "future" highways that were never built, like Babylon-Northport Expressway, SOB as far as Northern Boulevard, Bethpage Pkwy all the way to the north shore, etc. etc.
My 8/47 shows: BMT as Yellow, IND as Red & IRT as Blue
IND ends at Ditmas where Culver crosses in front of it & continues to CI.
Join service (IND/BMT) shown on Liberty Ave to Euclid Ave.
Fulton & Lexington els still up in Brooklyn, 3rd in Manhattan.
(got this from one of our bus drivers who's dad worked for IRT).
IIRC, wasn't there a station map with the lines color coded by division,
not line [IND = red, IRT = blue, BMT = yellow] in the
late forties or early fifties showing the Culver as RED from
Ditmas south to Coney Island, years prior to the final connection?
;-) Sparky
During the 1950's the transit authority issued a Hagstrom's Map for each of the three divisions. Each map showed all lines but high-lighted a particular division.
Larry, RedbirdR33
I clearly recall the 1947 vintage maps which hung in all of the subway stations in NY until the early 1960s. They had the IRT blue, BMT yellow, and IND red, with thin black lines for the Els. The map had no service guide. Each map had a big red "You are Here" arrow pointing to the station where it was located.
The map was designed with upcoming expansions indicated -- it showed the Queens Blvd. line to 179th St, the Fulton St. IND to Euclid Ave., the Astoria and Flushing lines as being BMT and IRT only, respectively, and the IND extended to Coney Island via the Culver line. There were small red stars on the maps, and I remember once finding one with a notes sticker which referred to these red stars. The notes that I remember were (not verbatim quotes):
* Service between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Court St. not currently operating (yes, Court St. IND was on the map).
* Elevated service to Freeman St. (on what is now the 2, 5 line) not currently operating (thin black "El" line was shown branching off the 3rd Ave. El at 149th St.
* Astoria and Flushing lines currently operating joint BMT/IRT operation.
* Sevice not yet operating to 179th St (Queens Blvd. line)
* Fulton St. line stations from Broadway East New York to Euclid Ave. not yet open.
* Culver line temporary operation via BMT via Ft. Hamilton Pkwy. and 13th Ave. (I remember that it specifically mentioned those two stops on what became the Culver shuttle).
-- Ed Sachs
>>> I clearly recall the 1947 vintage maps which hung in all of the subway stations in NY until the early 1960s <<<
I think you are mistaken on those maps being in the stations until the ‘60s. New maps were issued in 1948 at the time of the fare increase showing the new free transfer points. That is the map that is on this web site, and was in all trains and all (I assume) stations. It is the map that I am familiar with from my early rail fanning in the late ‘40s through the mid ‘50s.
Tom
Paper maps may have been issued in 1948, but the 1947 maps persisted in the stations for many years. The maps I'm referring to had a very solid feel to them -- my guess they had some kind of hardboard backing and a clear laminate over the map itself. They must of cost a fair amount to produce and hang in every station (mostly near the token booths) in 1947, and it took a long time before they started replacing them. When they finally started replacing them around 1960, they were replaced with a backing over which could be pasted an up-to-date paper map every year or so -- but even into 1962 or 63, the old maps were still to be seen in many stations.
Maps inside the subway cars were similarly frozen in time through the 1950s. I recall most of the pre-WWiI cars having maps from about 1952 into the late 1950s/early 60s. As new rolling stock was delivered in the 1950s, each car displayed inside a map that was up-to-date at the time that the car was new. I don't think that the TA really tried to replace all car maps regularly with up-to-date versions until the mid 1960s.
-- Ed Sachs
And if you look on the IND version, you'll see the Court St. stub even though it was closed in 1946. The HH is listed as operating between Broadway-ENY and Court St.
What happened? TV4 says nos ervice due to a "track condition". No info on PATH's site.
Track fire, Christopher St, nothing new.
Another reason to hurry up and reopen WTC Hudson tube (and I know they're doing that, but I'm still impatient).
Ain't that a biatch, and I was just on the PATH today, R/T from 33 to Newark at around 1.
Real men don't have to dis'women to try to impress other men.
Real men have mothers and wives or significant others and daughters they respect and love and expect other men to respect.
The most attractive men are those who instinctively know this.
They respect people in general, unless those people - men or women - behave badly and lose that respect.
I try not to be bothered by the rest of you. Those of you who make crass remarks about women remind me of the kind of immature men who listen to Howard Stern. It's very hard for me to respect you when you
act out like that.
I respect myself and am usually accorded respect in person. I don't think you would act this way if you met me, and wish you wouldn't here.
But perhaps acting out here is exciting for you. My advice - and we all know it's worth what you pay for it - get a life, you guys.
Sincerely,
Subway grrl
I've been ignoring the "women subtalkers" thread after seeing some of the earlier posts ... but for what it's worth, when I worked the TA and when Nancy (bingbong) WANTED to work the TA, you didn't see many women, aside from the token booth. Nancy WANTED to go for the conductor exam but was told in NO uncertain terms, "women CAN'T be conductors or motorpeople" and never followed up on it. When it comes to foaming though, she's far more into trains than I am.
Imagine her delight when she came to Branford this past fall and actually got to RUN an Arnine and a redbird. And she was better than any of us GUYS ... there's hope even if some people insist on dragging their knuckles on the ground, admiring the sparks on the sidewalk behind them. And they're fun to watch when their pants catch fire. Moo. :)
I didn't think you were with TA that long ago. They actually said "no" and "women" in the same breath that recently??? Nancy could have gotten a lawyer and had the operation shut down faster than Bruno could do it, I would have thought.
Things were different back in the late 60's, early 70's ... "wasn't women's work" and the women BELIEVED it ... :(
P.S. I didn't read the "why no women" thread after the first couple of posts. I work in construction and I know where that topic usually ends up. Thank god it's changing as much as it is.
I like your post...
WHERE WERE YOU WHEN I WAS IN LOS ANGELES 20 YEARS AGO AND COULDN'T GET A DATE TO SAVE MY LIFE?
(It's OK - I'm married now - met her in NY and we've been happily ever after since then)
And this relates to trains, how?
..This relates to trains when you trace it
back to the thread about the women who were
on the TRAIN going into Brooklyn offering a certain
gesture to passengers whom were willing to buff up
a $100 green..
Something about panhandlers on the subway... yeh?
That has less to do with men dis'ing women and more to do with women who dis women.
Mkay.
Bet ye can't say THAT three times fast... :s
Points taken, grrl, and you may note I didn't even get into that thread.
I am married to a wonderful woman, now in our 26th year together, and have two great daughters who aren't shy about who they are and what they achieve. Even both our dogs are girls. I'm badly outnumbered and they dis' me but, hey, it's their job! :)
But I wonder about
Those of you who make crass remarks about women remind me of the kind of immature men who listen to Howard Stern.
What do you think of the women who seem so eager to appear on his show, or the other women who don't seem to appreciate the kind of man you seem to?
Honestly,
I think those women have incredibly low self esteem, and have bought
into the opinion of the sexist people in our society. It's a shame, but not everyone can rise above that "noise."
Amen ... everyone is all they're willing to be. (and as we say in New York, joke'em if they can't take a .... ummm ...)
Top ten reasons God Created Eve:
10.God worried that Adam would be lost in the Garden of Eden because he wouldn't ask directions.
9.God knew that someday Adam would need someone to hand him the TV remote. (Parenthetically, it has been noted that men don't want to see what's on TV; they want to see WHAT ELSE is on.)
8.God knew that Adam would never make a doctor's appointment.
7.God knew that when Adam's fig leaf wore out he would never buy a new one for himself.
6.God knew that Adam would not remember to take out the garbage.
5.God wanted man to be fruitful and multiply, but he knew Adam would never be able to handle labour pains and childbirth.
4. As "keeper of the garden" Adam would need help in finding his tools.
3. Adam needed someone to blame for the Apple Incident, and for anything else that was really his fault.
2.As the Bible says: "It is not good for man to be alone." And The Number One Reason of All...(Tada, drum roll, fanfare, etc.)
1.God stepped back, looked at Adam, and declared: "I can do better than that."
Moo ... wrap it ...
Giggle! I'll have to share this with my husband! Though he is the finder of things in our family, a job he really resents!
Heh. SOME of us aren't mouth-breathers, and actually *DO* read the instruction booklet before we argue. :)
You're MOST welcome ... and as to Howard Stern, well ... if women were into Howard Stern, then they'd be ribbing their boyfriends about getting it on with a pair of gay men and inviting their "significant other" to JOIN IN as an alternative to the "lesbian thing" ... yeah, that cures it. And if only men realized that they weren't gonna GET any going Howard's way - nah, why ruin the reality. Stereotypes CAN be fun, especially on the other foot. :)
Guess I've been real too long for my own good. Clearly not a well person, I figured all along that girls just wanna have fun. And then we have republicans to stomp all over THAT idea. Oinkers, eh?
Uh Oh, I think Subway Grrl put your strings on that one.
Well, those women (and there are a lot) create powerful mixed messages for men, especially young men.
I've had my best success around women, both socially and romantically, when I've simply been myself, but we have an awful lot of people who tell you in an awful lor of ways, that you need to be someone else.
Look at what my daughters are sold on Nick, and don't even think about MTV. I think those are more damaging than Stern, because Stern drips with being a scuzbag, and kids pick up on that, but the rest of our commerical youth culture is immature sex wrapped in sugar, like cheap wine. Take it from a father of girls.
Being a guy isn't always a piece of cake, either.
Well put.
There's something else that comes to my mind. It's probably correct to say that the main "diss-ers" of women are ... other women. I'll give an example. The other evening, my stepdaughter and I went to the gym. While we were leaving, Cherie told me of a rather distressing thing that had occurred. She had been doing lunges, which are a useful lower-body exercise but one that's difficult to do with proper form. As she was doing them, two aerobics bunnies were looking at her and giggling, amused at her awkwardness while trying to maintain proper form. It's very difficult to imagine men being amused at another man's appearance under such circumstances. But it is not hard at all to imagine women finding humor in another woman's appearance.
Or consider the question every married man dreads, "Do I look fat in this dress?" When a woman asks this question, she isn't concerned about what other men might think. She knows that most men won't particularly care or even notice. But other women, that's a different story; they'll be quick to notice that so-and-so looks a little pudgy in that dress.
In short, while it's bad for men to diss women, it's not men who are the main offenders.
Peter, I don't agree with you. This catty behavior is mean, but does
not approach the belittling nature of men reducing women to something having to do with sex only. That kind of disrespect is dealt out by a handful of men who are really insecure, and need to feel superior to someone. They are usually very prejudiced against other races and ethnicities too.
I do agree with you and Paul about the teen pop tarts. It's a terrible message for women to get. When there is money and stardom awaiting those who do it best, there will be takers. But even in the
shallow movie and music businesses there are always shining examples.
Look at Alicia Keys and Nora Jones, also Kirsten Dunst and Reese Witherspoon. They are real stars who don't cheapen themselves, but make it on raw talent and hard work. Rap videos now show barely dressed men as well, and with their words, the male rappers play the "cheap" "sex sells" game all the time too.
On the flip side, I do think it's hard to difficult to be a man, too,
and we should all be in this together! We need each other.
Look at Alicia Keys and Nora Jones, also Kirsten Dunst and Reese Witherspoon. They are real stars who don't cheapen themselves, but make it on raw talent and hard work.
Ms, Witherspoon has not always been so modest (sorry, no pictures).
I'm amazed at how I can engage women in conversation in any venue and it a great experience. I only wish I had this ability when I was a young man. Hell, I didn't have my first date until 22 and tried furiously to catch up the next six years. I did marry a wonderful girl and we have been married 32-and a half years on February 1. Since I travel with friends or alone (my wife doesn't like to travel but lets me because she trusts me completely) I run into women all the time. Being friendly and yourself is the best way to go. There are some real witches out there but the vast majority I've met are real ladies. And, admittedly, I do like the ladies.
I can vouch for that, Fred is always trying to pick up young women, especially on the subway and resturaunts.DIRTY OLD MAN
Oh Bob, he ain't that bad. Having spent two days with him in October,
on the Subway, because he always follwed or lead the pack of us guys.
I'm a dirtier old man then he his, I admit I look, more so if they're flaunting,
while he just converses with the ladies. >G<
;-) Sparky
Peter, I don't agree with you. This catty behavior is mean, but does not approach the belittling nature of men reducing women to something having to do with sex only. That kind of disrespect is dealt out by a handful of men who are really insecure, and need to feel superior to someone. They are usually very prejudiced against other races and ethnicities too.
Consider it this way. Most men do not belittle women and treat them as nothing but sex objects. More to the point, the men who do act that way are not Rhodes Scholar candidates, to put it mildly. They're basically a fringe group who can be (and are) dismissed as a bunch of schmucks.
Cattiness among women, by all appearances, is a lot more common. While some of the women who engage in that behavoir are just a bunch of trailer-trash skanks, most of them are not. That makes their actions even more hurtful to the targets thereof.
I totally agree with you, well said. ;-)
Well said and I totally agree with you.
Wayne
Well said, I guess, My wife of 33 years died two years ago. I've ran into more asshole men than women, so I guess that says something. In public I always give women respect and dignity, although some others don't. My generation was brought up to be 'Gentlemen' a word many future generations forgot.
Ok, nice post, but what brought all this up? I went over and spot clicked all over the "Why no women on SubTalk?" thread and didn't see any women dissing going on. Can someone please link me to the post where the bad words were written?
---Brian
Bwaahaha! At least Subtalk has women in it, unlike Bustalk. *runs*
Subway grrl, I must admit that I was involved in some of the earlier 'banter' of innuendos...however, I DO NOT LIKE Howard Stern*...and I respect the women in my life (and all women who are worthy of repect).
I got carried away at a thread that started off -- TO ME -- as humorous since a SubTalker mentioned someone whom I KNOW to be a man as being a woman...it was an honest mistake, but I took it and ran with it and had some fun -- albeit -- at the expense of our 'fairer sex'.
If you were to go to a PREDOMINENTLY female website -- something like 'Soap Opera Talk'(or whatever) I'm sure there'd be a few posts that would take a sexual zinger or two at men...sorry, but if you frequent a site that caters to 98% men...you should not be surprised if there MIGHT be banter that you (or most women) would deem offensive.
*for the record I am a 'Ron and Fez' listener (WNEW 102.7) Sorry for the shameless plug
HEY!!!!!!!!! Whats wrong Howard Stern?? Ill listen every chance I get. And I treat the women very nicely.
SOrry for grammatical mistakes. Late night.
I have the Ultimate Definition of a real man ,He pays his 17% ,makes sure he cleans off the TOD of the 143 after he is done with the WEP worker,Always see him at Canarise on pay Day.He doesnt diss women He always asks them and they willingly drop the mop and climb aboard the "train".See being a C/R I never dis My overwhelmingly beatiful lady passengers,But as you all know with 6 kids and a new mortage PLus 4 babies mama's taking me to court,SOmetimes a man has to diss.There is only one person on this board that feels my pain he knows who he is.
I heard about a cleaner in the B divison that got 10 kids. All with 10 different TA guys. Any truth to this? You wouldnt to be any one of them??
Mines are # 8&9 Dont dis my babies mama she sweet fertile but sweet
Its time for me to go to bed.
And if the truth be told, real women don't diss men either.
I agree, read my previous posts!
...no, only real Brighton Beach Guys do...LOL!
...no, only real Brighton Beach Guys do...LOL!
I heard you the first time Doug. Have a nice weekend.
There's no excuse for you....:)
SURE there is ...
A woman is very distressed because her husband has lost interest in having sex and she has not been married very long.
She goes to see her doctor, and relays the problem. The doctor tells her that this is nothing serious, it's just that her husband has merely lost his animal instincts.
The doctor tells her to crumble some dog biscuits on her husband's cereal every morning without telling him, and little by little this will bring out the savage beast in him. He wishes her good luck and tells her to come back in a week with a progress report.
A week later the woman returns to the doctor, who asks how her husband is.
"He's dead," she replies.
"Dead?" the doctor asked. "What happened?"
The woman replied, "He was sitting in the driveway licking his balls
and I backed over him with the car."
Barum-pum.
ROTFLMAO!!!! Unca Kev, you are DANGEROUS!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!
C'Mon! You're a guy ... it's all about getting your biweekly nut. Moo. SOME of us actually GET it, and get some on us. Cab blessings CAN be a way of life, void where prohibited by raw. :)
Bi-weekly nut? Some are NUTS full-time.:)
Yeah, but the requirement to salivate for the Hummin' racehorses trolls only occurs twice a month ... like that TIME CARD ... and as to NUTS, hey ... it's that time of the year when the squirrels are INSIDE. Nuff said, watch out for post-it notes in da broomcloset. :)
Tarzan had been living alone in his jungle kingdom for
25 years with only suitably shaped holes in trees for
sex. Jane, a reporter, came to African in search of
this legendary figure. One day, deep in the wilds,
she came to a clearing and discovered Tarzan vigorously
thrusting himself into a jungle oak. She watched in
awe for awhile. Finally, overcome by this display of
animal passion, Jane came out in to the open and offered
herself to him. As she reclined on the wild grass,
Tarzan became aroused. He quickly ran over and kicked
her in the crotch really hard. In pain, she screamed,
"What the hell did you do that for?". Tarzan replied,
"Tarzan always check for squirrels first."
Unca Kev, please STOP THE PAIN! LOL
Doc Selkirk shoot ya up now, OK? Joe Bruno plant BIG kiss directly on lips now. :)
Hey look! It's Rocky and Bullwinkle!
Time to take the meds, bro! :)
Double D,
Good One, ROTFLOL
:-) Sparky
LOL
Now if ONLY wimmens could get the STOOGES ... when that happens of course, we'll have CATS and DOGS LIVING TOGETHER, Fred on the Brighton, Bob LOVING the SeaBeach, Traindude LOVING Heypaul, mayhem on a widespread scale ...
Just DON'T GO THERE! We just can't have it. Take yer Ritalin. :)
That's like matter and anti-matter colliding...destruciton of the entire universe as we know it*
*Learned that from Stephen Hawkings (MY math tutor):)
Actually (pardon the sidetrip) ... if "matter" and so-called "anti-matter" actually DID collide, there'd be LOVE at the foamer glass ... don't quote me on that, but Bingbong and I really *DO* love our trainsets ... YOU got a glimpse of it yerself ... heh.
But STOOGES? Well ... :)
Now if ONLY wimmens could get the STOOGES ... when that happens of course, we'll have CATS and DOGS LIVING TOGETHER, Fred on the Brighton, Bob LOVING the SeaBeach, Traindude LOVING Heypaul, mayhem on a widespread scale ...
Trains on Second Avenue?
Kevin, did you take your thorazine this morning? LOL
Heh. No, but I got *lucky* ... "Lucky" is the dewd next door. Nah, you'd be amazed ... I ain't so giddy over subway routings, and I observed rule ONE of "Noo Yawk citizenships" and "cab blessings" some 25 years ago - "ALWAYS check da beaver for a kickstand" and hey, guess what! NO Peruvian marching dust required to make it jive ... :)
YES, dere be wimmens foamers! Woo-hoo! BINGBONG! (grin)
Well no woman will have to worry bout that with me. I'll always give her plenty of attention and let her share the railfan window!
Actually there's nothin quite like makin out at the window on a 7 express train flying down the middle...
Okay - then how do you explain this one?
An oriental couple was in bed - attempting to have a tender moment. The husband was having trouble becoming arroused - as much as he tried. The wife looked up at him, adoringly but obviously hurt. She blurted out,
"What the matter?
Husband replies,
"I don't know - I want something different?"
Wife says,
"What do you want"
Husband blurts out,
"I want sixty-nine"
The exasperated wife screams back,
"WHAT YOU NEED WITH BEEF AND BROCCOLI NOW?"
Heh heh, that was a good one!
Some things just can't be explained, I s'pose ...
I recently picked a new primary care physician. After two visits and exhaustive lab tests, he said I was doing "fairly well" for my age. A little concerned about that comment, I couldn't resist asking him, "Do you think I'll live to be 80?"
He asked, "Well, do you smoke tobacco or drink beer?" "Oh no," I replied,"I've never done either."
Then he asked, "Do you eat rib-eye steaks and bar-b-qued ribs? I said, "No, I've heard that all "red meat" is very unhealthy!"
"Do you spend a lot of time in the sun, like playing golf?" he asked. "No I don't," I said.
He said, "Do you gamble, drive fast cars, or fool around with sexy women?" "No," I said, "I've never done any of those things."
He looked at me and said, "Then why in hell do you want to live to be 80 ??"
You had your fingers crossed, right?:)
Heh. Not just the fingers. No, I'm looking forward to 80, and if I don't make it, a little more handle time and I'll go out with a chit-eating grin. ;)
LOL!! Good one! : D
I didn't really post too much on the "Why no women in Subtalk" thread and I admit I was a little sarcastic. I wouldn't degrade women or anybody for that matter on purpose [unless you diss me first]. I'm NO fan of Howard Stern and I'm not immature so that doesn't apply to me. I didn't see any posts that were that vulgar to degrade women & I agree that there are immature men on this board but don't get so uptight, that's just how some people are.
UMMMMM OKKK, but what does this have to do with trains???
-AcelaExpress2005
No one asked this question when the post about why aren't there more
women on SubTalk. I thought I might give my "minority" view about the
reason why most women would feel uncomfortable here. There is a lot
of attitude that gets posted about "women equal sex." It's very immature and backward. I don't put all men or all of you in that category. I come here to read posts from those of you who are incredibly well informed and with whom I share a common interest. I try to ignore the creeps here, just like I do on the street. I hope it never gets to the point where I avoid the board because the creeps are too many in number - the way one would avoid a bad neighborhood.
But that could happen! Want some women here to keep it an interesting
mix? Don't do that retro stuff, except about the trains!
You are, sadly, simplistic and incorrect. The question of why there are few women on "Sub-talk" goes directly to the heart of the matter - whether many women are excited by ttrains as men are? I dislike the question so I avoided the thread, completely. I really don't care what the demographics of rail-fanning are. Others do.
Your statement has nothing to do with trains. It's a feminist question that was designed to evoke a negative image of some men. Whether someone here "dis's" women or not is completely unrelated to women's interest in trains.
Good job Dude. I posted a small broadside about women not dissing men. Maybe that will shut everyone up.
You're absolutely right, and I might add that this should be reciprocal: Real women shouldn't dis MEN, either. Unfortunately, that's NOT the case. Watch OPRAH, or virtually any prime-time sitcom.
Almost any time I happen to overhear a bunch of women chatting, the conversation inevitably turns some variation to the topic of Men Are Scum. In my new workplace, the mens' and ladies' rooms are separated by a thin wall, and BOY! The STUFF I (clearly) hear! If not for fear of giving myself away as an eavesdropper, I'd love to say "Well, if your boyfriend/husband is so bad, why'd you take up with him?"
To bring this onto topic in a really convoluted fashion, I recently rode MN from Grand Central to White Plains. The WHOLE WAY, a young woman several rows behind was engaged in a lengthy cell-phone monologue, most of which I would not recount on this board in the interest of good taste. But it was largely along the lines of "He's got a lot of money, so I'll let him take me out a few more times and get what I can out of him before I dump him."; "Whenever I go to [name of club], I like to get as many ugly, nerdy guys as I can interested so they buy me drinks, then I give 'em a phony number or set up a phony date- they're so stupid, they fall for it." Each invective was punctuated with laughter.
I would've loved to say to her "Nobody here cares about your sexploits, so keep it down- there're young children in this car who can hear every word you say." But doing so would've got me killed- or at least branded as another stupid guy.
I've got a wife, mother, mother-in-law and female boss with whom I may not always see eye-to-eye, and will disagree with if I see necessary. But I show them respect, and I'm very happy to say they respect me- I hope!!
So respect should cut both ways, regardless of gender- whether it's a friend, family member, co-worker, or total stranger.
I know that I will be hearing this in a negative manner to no end but who cares?
Even after what we have learned from 9/11 about the importance of helping one another, nothing has changed about the attitudes of subway riders today. I can observe a pregnant woman (who is clearly at least 5 months), OR an elderly woman (or man in this case) standing on the train instead of sitting. DAMM SHAME! THERE ARE MEN HALF THE F*****NG AGE OF AN ELDERLY PERSON THAT WOULD NOT EVEN BUDGE TO GIVE UP THEIR SEAT. AND SHAME OF ALL THE MEN WHO PASS BY A MOTHER WITH A STROLLER, AND TRYING TO GET UPSTAIRS OR DOWNSTAIRS, NOT EVEN AT LEAST ASKING FOR HELP WITH THE STROLLER. DO MEN DO THIS ACT OF TREASON TO THEIR WIFE OR MOTHER?
So when I'm on the train I give up my seat, but if I'm standing and I see this travesty, I talk out loud "This is one of the saddest things I see, not giving up a seat to a pregnant woman, eldery person or a person with a visible disability (such as a cane or crutch)."
What a sexist remark. What makes you think only guys do this kind of stuff? I'm pretty sure girlie girls make their girlfriends flaunt their stuff at guys. Then they go silly and do something stupid for their affection. How's that for an argument, grrrrrrrrrrl!
I'm beginning to think skip-stop service is a good alternative for the Brighton line, {though don't get me wrong, I love flying down the line with the express at the front window.} But in terms of service, as said before, each train would divide the passengers equally, so we won't be seeing packed expresses next to locals with only a few standees anymore. On the midday, the locals and expresses run every ten minutes each, so a train comes every five minutes. According to the schedule, the express isn't supposed to pass the local until Kings Hwy, so people wait a long time for a local {five minutes is a long time for some people} and think an express is behind it, but of course, the express ends up causing them to lose time as it never seems to run on schedule compared with the local. It is due at Kings Hwy on the 9s going Southbound, and that's when we are usually on the stretch from Church to Newkirk.
The times in the past when they have used skip-stop, the result tended to be a middling quality of service for everyone. No sir, don't care for it. Don't care for it at all.
According to the schedule, the express isn't supposed to pass the local until Kings Hwy, so people wait a long time for a local {five minutes is a long time for some people}
I find it amazing how syncronized a schedule can be.
I see what you mean but skip stop service would make it worse than it already is. Its bad enough the express runs the way it is but now local servcice is being tied up with skip stop service and everyone is inconvienced to find their train had just bypassed them and now the have to wait ANOTHER 5 to 10 minutes just for a train that might stop there.
Service is as good as it is. Just add a few more trains and thats it.
by adding the M to the Local, it would help a little. I think during Rush Hours additional Service could be helpful.
It was mentioned a couple of years ago. The Local between BRighton Beach and Prospect Pk is only a few minutes. And Broadway and 6th Ave are no more then a 5-6 minute walk apart.
If there were more frequent service on either the D or Q(Whatever is Brighton Local) they still can get one seat(If you can get a seat after Kings Hwy) to Midtown.
If they were going to add a third service via tunnel, make it a second express not a second local.
I agree completely. A Nassau St/Brighton express would serve both lower Manhattan and Brighton riders who merely want to get to Atlantic/Dekalb Ave.
most brighon riders want to go to midtown either by broadway express or 6th ave express
Concidering the easy cross platform transfer at dekalb. Direct M service will inconvienced then helped.
No, it'd reduce dwell times at Dekalb because lower Manhattan bound Brighton riders would use the M express. A lot of riders get off Brighton trains here to catch tunnel trains into the financial district.
A second express service on the Brighton (unless I'm wrong, this will be a first in the current line's 83 year old history, count only from 1920 when the tunnel to Dekalb opened), has positive and drawbacks. The plus side is that loads for express service will be slightly less crowded, but the biggest drawback is that it may affect express service, especially when a PM rush train empties at Kings Highway or Church Ave. Trains might be slower during rush hours, and we DON'T want that on my line. But it sure would give the M line a shot in the arm, no one rides the M line in south Brooklyn during non-rush hours.
pUT THE m AS rUSH hOUR oNLY, OTHERWISE TERMINATE IT AT cHAMBERS
Bob, when you typed the last two posts, apparently the CAPS LOCK light on your keyboard is on.
Agreed.
On the contrary, the Brighton had two express services during much of its history. Most recently, the Broadway Express and the Nassau St. specials, which 1965-1967 they were designated Q and M, respectively. The specials originated from Coney Island, ran local, then switched to the express track south of Kings Highway. And that is only considering concurrent service. The Brighton had a second express service, the Brighton-Franklin Express, on Sundays (instead of the Broadway Express, which operated six days a week) and the Franklin-Nassau Coney Island Express during the summer.
There are plenty of seats on the local after kings highway. Even as far up as church ave there are still seats to be had on the local train in certain cars
Skip stop was there in the 80's only b/c of the capital improvements on the Brighton line which put the SB local track out of commission. All 'my' Brighton line needs is a few more trains on the weekdays since it is NOT running at capacity then its all good. I agree that the timing of the two lines do get thrown off of schedule at times but most of the time, trains are on time. Going southbound, at Church Av, Q locals usually get held there for a connection to the Q express [its happened too many times to count] and usually when the Q express bypasses the local at Cortelyou Rd the Q exp almost never waits at Newkirk for a connection from the Q local.
Skip stop would NOT work at all on the Brighton, the current pattern is fine. Extra trains will do the trick.
So, who about we run the (Q) and the (D) as Express and the (M) as a Local? Afterall, everybody seems to swithc from a local to an express at the first chance they get anyway.
Elias
The brighton is times to move people from local to express trains manhattan bound and from express trains to local trians brighton bound.
If the trains are running on time, the savy brighton rider gets off the local at church brighton bound and can expect the express to e a minute away.
>>"If the trains are running on time, the savy brighton rider gets off the local at church brighton bound and can expect the express to e a minute away."<<
Yes, this does happen often when I come from Manhattan but sometimes the C/R on the Q local closes the doors very quickly, therefore leaving the express behind at Church Av but usually passes us by Cortelyou and people do not get the cross platform connection to the Q express at Newkirk Av [seen it happen countless times].
Are assaults on train operators or conductors in the NYC subway system still a frequent occurrence? I know that during the Koch and DICKins years, working in the subways was very dangerous, in terms of transit workers being physically assaulted by criminal thugs and hoodlums.... has this situation eased up since that time? Can a train operator or conductor go to work and not feel as though he is taking his life into his hands?
Are assaults on train operators or conductors in the NYC subway system still a frequent occurrence? I know that during the Koch and DICKins years, working in the subways was very dangerous, in terms of transit workers being physically assaulted by criminal thugs and hoodlums.... has this situation eased up since that time? Can a train operator or conductor go to work and not feel as though he is taking his life into his hands?
Quite rare, as far as I know. People may yell at a conductor or t/o, but that's about it.
The position of train operator and conductor, as uniformed front line representatives of the TA, are always at risk for assault and batteries. I had 3 IODs to assault I can remember over my 16 years with the TA, an ear injury by a thrown firecracker, assaulted by a drunk at Lefferts, and injuries sustained by a caved in windshield outside 59th Street on the N line under the BQE. recently, an off duty T/O in uniform was assaulted at Bedford Park because the train wasn't moving, but he was seated enroute for a visit to a medical. There is always a risk to being in uniform in any profession, but as of lately, conductors are getting objects thrown in their eyes leaving stations, idiots still throw objects in front of moving trains, and we can't get even.
I was near a couple of Metro-North conductors who were decompressing after a physical incident of some kind, but I didn't ask what. Since they have to confront fare-avoidance situations and "please make seats available" (which I think caused this one), they may get more confrontation than the TA folks.
idiots still throw objects in front of moving trains, and we can't get even.
Sure we can. We tack a cabbose to each train armed with a water cannon spiked with a foul smelling inedlible dye.
Or did you have in mind something less drastic.
: )
Even S/As in booths are not immune: I have heard tales of firecrackers being mixed in with money or lit cigarettesd tossed into the booth.A t night we now use a sliding tray like the banks but liquids can still be forced into the booths through these.
While I will not name them, many booths have a police officer during the relief and we are instructed not to pull our wheels unless NYPD is present.
Here too, I will not name them but some booths do not get a lunch relief at night due to the neighborhood. If the S/A needs a comfort, they must call for police and wait for police before leaving the booth.
Many CTAs have also been hurt by customers-- be they(the customers) intoxicated, on drugs, anti-social, mad at the world, or whatever. Many homeless wont move if mobile wash needs to wash the platforms and police msut be called.
Even S/As in booths are not immune: I have heard tales of firecrackers being mixed in with money or lit cigarettesd tossed into the booth.A t night we now use a sliding tray like the banks but liquids can still be forced into the booths through these.
Having "heard tales" means nothing. We've all heard tales of a lot of lurid things. Do you have any statistics to cite regarding station agent assaults and injuries?
Statistics?
Mona Pierre at Halsey St/ L line
Harry Kaufman at Kingston Throop/ on A line.
Robert LaBright at Vernon Jackson/ on 7 line.
Russell Manzo at Neptune-Van Sicklen/ on F line.
Not to mention fatal shootings at
Euclid ave/ A line,
125 st/ 2 line
Cresent St/ J line
and other places I can't think of at the moment.
We agents have "heard tales" of alot of lurid things. It is not urban legend. It is FACT! Kindly think about that the next time you question an agent talking about booth safety.
You want stations:
1-the S/A at 675th (Queens Blvd) was taken to the hospial after a firecracker was thrown into the booth,. aprtially destoring the board.
2- The S/A at Dyckman on the 1 had a lit cigarette tossed through the window.
there are more!
If you think ouir job is so cushy soft, try being a S/A. Take the next test. Then tell us if you think ouyr job is still cuhsy soft.
Aside from the occasional kids trying to spit, chuck something, etc., I can honestly say that in the 16 years I've been a conductor now, no one has attempted a physical assault against me. Maybe the fact that I'm 5'11" tall and weigh 270 pounds might have something to do with it.
You see that poster??? It was a result of some little smuck who whacked a conductor with a sockfull of pennies as the C/R did his duty observing the platform as the trainset left. I know trainsets on the rail cannot backup BUT if trainsets could....the public would squeal on their fellow rats because they were discharged from the trainset and WILL be late for work. WE are Public Servants...not servants...not slaves to be rediculed. Vote NO for RATification. CI peter
Its not so common to see violent assaults against C/R's, T/O's, S/A's etc. Nowadays, its rare that people hit the TA employees; people just yell at them so yes, they don't have to fear for their lives as before.
I know that during the Koch and DICKins years
When was Charles Dickens the mayor of New York?
Extending the Q to the Bronx would be a great idea, plus it would provide an alternative to the crowded(NIMBY preferred and caused) 4/5/6 line.
How would the Q get from the Broadway Line to the Bronx. Better send it to Queens,
the Q would run with the N,W and R until 5th Avenue, then make a left turn(new tracks built on 5th to 125th, then to the Bronx)
Sheesh, you must be kidding. If you think NIMBY's are causing the Lex Line to be overcrowded, just try to get a line built underneath 5th Avenue!
Did you know that Fifth Avenue is the only major thoroughfare in Manhattan to NEVER have had a subway line, an el line or a trolley line built under, over or on it?
All these messages are crazy! The point of the 2nd Ave. subway is that the BMT express would continue down the 63rd St line, stop at the Lex/63rd St stop to connnect to 6th Ave trains, then turn left up 2nd Ave, eventually reaching the Bronx. The red wall at 63rd & Lex is a false wall, and if the 2nd Ave subway is ever built it would the wall would come down and it would be a double-decked station of 2 island platforms.
A subway under 5th is impossible not just because of who lives there, but also who doesn't. Like Central Pk West, you would have a line where on one side no one lives - that's a big reason why on the west side the IRT is so crowded but not the IND (relatively). A successful subway line needs people living & working on all sides to be well used.
Hell, at 86st, let's make the one train go down one level and veer west to west end avenue and make a station called "Clayton". I like that idea!
not likely.....no subways on 5th ave...ever. Rich folks would have a fit!!!!
Yet those snobs don't seem to mind the many filthy loud smelly diesel buses and trucks and all that heavy traffic on 5th Avenue. Bunch of damn hypocrites, those damn rich folks.
yep.Very rich folks.... who vote.
My plans for a Fifth Avenue Line call for a deep subway with no disturbance to the surface life (if any...[sic]) and no stops for them to access the line. They will not know that it is there.
The purpose for such a line is that any new lines built in queens brooklyn or bronx need a place to go to, and all existing trunk routes are full. A new trunk is needed to accommodate new distal lines. Fifth Avenue is a good route because it is very central to much of the city, doesn't have an existing line, and is easily shunted (via Moore Street) to the West Side Drive for access to downtown, wtc and brooklyn via wall and the Pineapple Tunnel.
Elias
If it's a deep tube with no intermediate stops between 57th and 125th, it doesn't matter what avenue it's under - hell, why not just send it under Central Park?
Except that the overcrowding on the existing routes is due more to the excessive demand between 59th and 125th than anything else. Why else would the locals be more crowded than the expresses?
Thats a good idea but you forgot what 5th Avenue is famous for. Rich people. Unless theres a decline in the property value on 5th Avenue the Q aint going to the bronx via Broadway anytime in the future.
Thats a good idea but you forgot what 5th Avenue is famous for. Rich people. Unless theres a decline in the property value on 5th Avenue the Q aint going to the bronx via Broadway anytime in the future.
Thats a good idea but you forgot what 5th Avenue is famous for. Rich people. Unless theres a decline in the property value on 5th Avenue the Q aint going to the bronx via Broadway anytime in the future.
Im sorry for the tripple post. Im currently having server problems.
It's also famous for something else. Central Park. Which means it's not a great place for a subway line, since it can only draw on the population on one side. Compare ridership on the CPW IND to the Broadway IRT.
Good idea to create a second line on the east to help the Lex Av line but don't count on it, especially with the rich folks on 5 Av. And besides the Q is slated to get routed via 2 Av once it is built[whenever that is]. The Bronx could use another line but what the borough really needs is a Cross Bronx [east-west] subway.
how about Madison Avenue?
Not a bad idea BUT it would probably cause the same roadblockds as would a proposed 5 Av subway, the rich would do anything to make sure that doesn't happen.
Yes, busses along 125th St. are slower than walking during rush hour.
Yes, I know but its not as bad as the midtown crosstown routes. They should build another crosstown subway in Manhattan then it turns and runs north/south on whatever street that has no subway.
>> And besides the Q is slated to get routed via 2 Av once it is built[whenever that is] <<
So...the Q won't run in Brooklyn anymore (SAS southern terminus to be South Ferry, unless the senseless Nassau St. Alignment is chosen)?
That'll be interesting.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Ahh...you meant north of 63rd St....sorry. Belay that.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
"So...the Q won't run in Brooklyn anymore (SAS southern terminus to be South Ferry, unless the senseless Nassau St. Alignment is chosen)?"
I think South Ferry will actually be better than another line being thrown into the Montague tunnel.. It could tie the #1/9 with N/R lines as a single connection.
N Broadway
The Q should continue to Brooklyn via Broadway & Brighton if chosen to run on the 2 Av line north of 63 St after using the connector. I say Chambers would be a good terminal for the 2 Av subway [the line that runs the full length of the SAS], it has many platforms & tracks. It could use the unused center platform & open doors on both sides and the center tracks for the terminal. The J could go to Broad St all times since the 2 Av subway would be using the middle tracks.
Oh.. Your talking about the Nassau Street line.. I was talking about the Water Street Line...
Anyway, the 2nd Avenue Line should take over the "M" route and the "M" should terminate at Chambers Street. Meanwhile, the J could be sent to Broad Street as now.
Being that the "M" route was never really popular with South Brooklyn riders, the 2nd Avenue line will draw from a totally different clientele. This clientele most likely would be traveling to/from the Far East side (FES) which consist of a vast mount of hospital facilities (NYU, BeekMan Hospitals,etc.,), residential properties, commerical industries, cultural centers, ect. So the line has the potential to be a popular mass transit entity of bringing people to/from work and home, or, to/from shopping and home.
The J/M/Z basically serve the residential area, which is why they were never really popular with South Brooklyn riders. Also, the racial and economic demographics are quite different in these two communities... So, people traveling to a friends or families home often stop short of Dekalb Avenue. This isn't true with Lines like the A/D whereas many people living in the Flatbush, Bedford Stuyvesant area travel to upper Manhattan and the Bronx on a regular basis.
The second Avenue line has the potential of serving this market as well.. But that depends on how far a person is traveling on second avenue.
N Bwy
No - the Q would continue to Brooklyn. As planned, the 2nd Ave subway would have two lines going downtown. One would continue past 63rd st down 2nd Ave to South Ferry, the other would turn down 63rd st and continue down the B'way BMT
A subway on 5th Ave? Perish the thought! The rich will cry NIMBY and the extreme east siders will cry that the line doesn't serve them.
tHEY CAN ADD EXTRA STATIONS ON THE METRO NORTH HARLEM DIV IN THE BRONX AND RUN MORE LOCAL SERVICE
That won't work, it is useless to those that can't afford a DOUBLE FARE, just like Westchester Bee Line(until they get Metrocards, then they become like the Q44 and QBx1, extra help for the Bronx)
It can work, just use the new stations with MetroCards, and All Metro North Trains get a free transfer say at Wakefield and Fordham, to be the only Bronx Stops
I've made several trips to Newark with PATH since the NJT Transit Shop has been having its sale. It seems to me that PATH has very poor safety rules for workers on the track.
The first trip I noticed that a back hoe working alongside the tracks right before Journal Square did not stop operating as our train past by it. They were real close to the train. I think here in the city, any crane or equipment with a boom will be frozen until the train passes.
Another day, I noticed two guys alongside the tunnel wall and there did not seem to be much clearance. As we passed they seemed to be pressed hard against the wall.
Today I noticed a crew of several workers screwing around a switch and I did not notice any flagging or anyone looking out for trains. The train operator did blow his horn.
Has anyone else noticed this?
How about rules for the safety of passengers, especially those with their noses pressed up against the glorious railfan window? I will say no more...
Yes, my concerns were definitely for the safety of the riders, especially in the case of the back hoe.
There was a Black Hoe working next to the rails??
What is Jersey coming to? At least the Black Hoe's on the west side don't work the subway.
I can't comment on what PATH thinks is proper or not, since I don't work there. But I can make a number of observations...
1) The entire PATH tunnel system would be rated a "no clearance area" by the TA. PATH workers are used to it, and as long as the train operates at a slow speed going past them there aren't any problems.
2) PATH, by virtue of being a smaller system than the TA, has crews more aware of everything going on throughout the system. Unless it is an emergency repair, the crew will have a GO notice of where work is being done (these can also be found taped to tower windows - the only one that can be viewed by the public is at the near end of tracks 1&2 in Hoboken). There will also be info broadcast over the radio to the crews. They'll even announce things like a drunk at 33rd wobbling on the platform, with an announcement to be extra careful when arriving there).
Also, they seem to be quicker to respond to incidents - a couple months ago the backhoe with rail wheels came off the rail in JU5 and when we arrived at Pavonia, the crew was told to change ends, go to Hoboken, change ends, and come back down the other track. They reconfigured for single track operation within a few minutes of the incident.
This isn't to say that PATH is perfect - there are a number of things they could do better for safety, but they do a pretty good job overall.
The entire PATH tunnel system would be rated a "no clearance area" by the TA. PATH workers are used to it, and as long as the train operates at a slow speed going past them there aren't any problems.
Does the train speed actually make any difference if track workers are squeezed into a minimal-clearance area?
"Does the train speed actually make any difference if track workers are squeezed into a minimal-clearance area?"
Yes, it does. SUCTION...
The TA annouces when theres an intoxicated person or reports "unauthorized personnel" on the tracks.
Regarding the track workers, PATH engineers get a daily bulitin that details all the harzard they might find during their runs. I just picked up one of these for the METRA Electric line and it detailed the exact location of every work group and the action the engineer was to take.
That kind of briefing should be mandatory for all railroads and transit systems.
That kind of briefing should be mandatory for all railroads and transit systems.
They mostly are.
I think the problem on the TA is that work crews might set up shop or move their location *after* a train has left its terminal. PATH is too short to allow for this, and BIG RAILROADS like out here, the work crew has to be trucked in, and will be on site all day.
Elias
Trust me, they were looking.
Also, PATH is FRA, so their rules are better than TA rules.
According to the LIRR the 3 car sets (i think correct me if im wrong) have heads with full view windows (5 exactly) around the front, which is in a compartment that can be expanded into crew space (blocking all windows) OR passage (blocking only the engineers front and side window, leaving the other 3 for railfans), so in the middle there is no block because people pass between cars, but in the front, LIRR testers have up to four people in the head compartment conducting tests on the equiptment, after these tests have beed conducted, a full railfan section maybe opened, with the folding seat the M-7's have in front of those big front and side windows and the ends, so you now railfan while sitting
pics?
I saw an M-7 today, passing through Lawrence (it goes by a little after 12 each day, BTW, to Far Rockaway).
Observatons (No, I didn't board it, though I guess theoretically, I could have):
The styling is so so, the gates don't stand out like sore thumbs, but the black front is never going to last, IMHO.
The horn is much like the M-3 horn.
The %^*&%^* things are chatterboxes and loud ones
The close warning is a 'ding dong' like the R-142s.
No more brake release 'whoosh' :(
They are fairly quiet, but the inverter noise stands out and carries a long distance, I could plainly hear it while the train was quite a didstance away. It's not loud, but it carries and stands out...
Acceleration looks as lousy as the M-1/3 cars. Don't expect these things to close timetable gaps. Unless the guy was just going easy at this end.
I need to look at the trucks a bit closer - they list the maximum weight they can support, and I seem to recall a number on the order of 65,000 lbs. This is interesting, as the listed weight of the M-7 is 125,000 lbs, thus meaning even a standard seated passenger load violates the maximum weight listed on the trucks. Or, the M-7 is lighter than the LIRR/Bombardier say it is.
The brakes are disc, and look a lot like the DE/DM brake setup. The trucks look like a new design, but based on European practice. Not as radical as the Kawasaki trucks.
The propulsion package is Mitsubishi. It also features not one, but two high speed circuit breakers. The carrier noise is present whenever the motors are doing something. It sounds lower than 1khz, not really surprising given the motor size / environment, though I think the R-142's carrier is around 1khz.
The door operators seemed rather fast.
The chatty voice is the same as the C-3 cars, and equally annoying.
The 'We serve with pride" stickers are back.
You can spot an M-7 easily - they have a black front and two headlights up at top spaces a bit farther apart than the C-3 and M-1/3 cars. From the side, they look NOTHING like the M 1/3.
When rolling, expect little wheel noise, but an 'eeeeeeeeee' inverter noise if the train is under power or braking. When coasting, they are very quiet. There's also less idle noise - no MA whine.
I saw a M-7 today, as soon as I stepped out of my Building to go to the corner store, I see it going Queens Bound leaving Nostrand Ave. Station, at around 3:45 pm
-AcelaExpress2005
I saw an M-7 set at Flatbush Terminal last week. I got on, looked around, and headed back down to the subway.
I didn't get a chance to get up close and personal with the M-7 yet. I see the M-7 mostly every morning when heading to Nostrand Ave. Station (A/C Lines) for school.
-AcelaExpress2005
"Acceleration looks as lousy as the M-1/3 cars. Don't expect these things to close timetable gaps. Unless the guy was just going easy at this end."
I have two friends who are LIRR engineers. While the first one was trained on the M-7's a month ago, the second one was trained on them last week.
He said that the acceleration on the M-7's are comparable to the Jersey Arrows, pinning you to your seat backs. This is not the first report I heard about the acceleration being very quick. Perhaps the engineer was taking it easy, not yet totally used to the new set up.
Bill "Newkirk"
why run something balls to walls while you just have to sit at next station to wait for departure time ??
The close warning is a 'ding dong' like the R-142s.
Actually it's a single, high-pitched, rapid beeping. The ding-dong sound is played before every announcement, automatic and manual.
Acceleration actually seems quite good. I've only ridden an M-7 on the Hempstead branch, which doesn't offer many stretches to get going, but portions of the ride between Flatbush and ENY were fast. Nice and quiet, too, though there seemed to be more side-to-side rocking than I'm used to with the M-1/3s - nothing that tightening the suspension up a little bit wouldn't fix.
Ok, today, I chased it down again at lunch and checked it out a bit more:
The trucks specify a maximum load of 63,000 lbs. The cars are claimed to weigh 125,000lbs and hold about 115. You do the math.
There's evidence of removed yaw dampers - the brackets are there, the dampers aren't.
The inverters are force cooled with filters on the intakes.
The shoe beam and mounting is weird.
I think it's theoretically possible to ride from where I am (Lawrence) to Far Rock on it, and back on an M 1/3 durring my lunch break. I might try this next week if it's slow at work.
The suspension seems to be air bag, and much larger bags than the M-1/3. I know the latter are designed to maintain track speed with deflated bags, but i don't know about these new cars, since I didn't see a spring or anything like that. I'm also curious as to how the forces are transmitted to from the truck to the frame, as they don't seem to have the horizontal connection bars that the M-1's have.
As a side, semi related note, does anyone have a good drawing of the C-3 car trucks?
It seems to me that the intelligent thing for you to do is write a polite letter asking the questions about which you are curious (the yaw dampers, the listed weights on the trucks) and see what the LIRR's response is. (You can also write Bombardier). Were the yaw dampers actually removed, and if so, why?
My guess: Since the trains have to move at high speed through stations with high platforms, it stands to reason that either the M7 doesn't sway enough for the cars to hit the platform, or the damper really is there, and it's either been relocated, or the bracket you're looking at isn't what you think it is.
But it would be useful to hear LIRR's answer, and compare it to your own observations.
Yes, I'm starting to create a list of questions surrounding the design of the cars, I'd like to get a ride on them before, though, and make a few more observations.
BTW, the Far Rockaway station is in the middle of nowhere (well, not really..)
Anyway, the train seems to be reliably comming into there every day at about 12:15.
Ok, today, I chased it down again at lunch and checked it out a bit more:
The trucks specify a maximum load of 63,000 lbs. The cars are claimed to weigh 125,000lbs and hold about 115. You do the math.
There's evidence of removed yaw dampers - the brackets are there, the dampers aren't.
The inverters are force cooled with filters on the intakes.
The shoe beam and mounting is weird.
I think it's theoretically possible to ride from where I am (Lawrence) to Far Rock on it, and back on an M 1/3 durring my lunch break. I might try this next week if it's slow at work.
The suspension seems to be air bag, and much larger bags than the M-1/3. I know the latter are designed to maintain track speed with deflated bags, but i don't know about these new cars, since I didn't see a spring or anything like that. I'm also curious as to how the forces are transmitted to from the truck to the frame, as they don't seem to have the horizontal connection bars that the M-1's have.
As a side, semi related note, does anyone have a good drawing of the C-3 car trucks?
Why would the Engineer ever want to half the front cab for railfans?
Maybe because HE/SHE is a railfan. Seriously though, there WAS a LIRR engineer many years ago called Bob Meoli whose usual assignment was the Babylon branch. He used to sell all kinds of LIRR railfan stuff right from the cab of his train. He had belt buckles, hats, pins, you name it. He always made sure to be working on the days there were fan trips. I clearly remember one in April 1984 with Alco C420s out to Montauk and he was the engineer on the connection from Penn. Bought a belt buckle from him which I still have today. So there ARE LIRR personnel who cater to us "unconventional folk"...
Bob is such a railfan that he's still an engineer! Known to everyone as "Belt Buckle Bob".
I never knew that! What's his current assignment?
I'm not 100%, but I believe he owns an extra list job.
Thanks again! I WILL be looking out for him. Time for a new belt buckle...
I was on the 6:14 from flatbush, after getting off at jamaica to get the wantagh train, the announcments say "all trains have delays up to forty-five minutes, and all trains have track changes-listen for all annoucements" and trains are pulling in seconds after each other, using tracks four through eight all at the same time, with trains going constantly and announcemnets not catching up with the trains, i boarded what the loudspeaker said was a wantagh train, with happened to be a far rock- and people were lost everywhere, and the signs could not catch up with the trains either- the babylon exp had a sign far rockaway- the deisels were leaving from tracks 4,5,and 6, causing a rush of people running up and down the stairs in all directions-it seemed all trains were backed up and all piled in at the same time for some reason- anyone know why
What is the Maximum Weight Capacity for NYC Subway Cars?
-AcelaExpress2005
You'll be overloaded and can't fit more before you go over that limit if any...
250 warm bodies per 6o foot car.
For a 75' car 350 pass max (design) or 280 pass. (practical)
For a 60' car 300 pass max (design) or 220 pass. (practical)
For a 50' car 200 pass max (design) or 180 pass. (practical)
Source, NYCT New Car Engineering document (1947 - 1976)
There has been a problem with youths throwing pebbles down at houses and cars from the Beach 90th train platform. The TA has acted quickly to put up fencing to prevent this from continuing.
Beach 90th
A CCTV camera would have seemed more cost effective.
I'd use both.
Just think if there were some cctv cameras in the area's where the two slashing incidents took place there would be soem leads in the cases
Absolutely worthless - the vandals would simply sling-shot some rocks right at the camera and destroy it. Better to stop the problem immediately with an effective solution (high fence) that doesn't require any maintenance once it's installed.
NOT TRUE, there are plenty of CCTV camera's all over the system that are not vandalized and have operated for years.
It sounds like there is a bunch f schol kinds who are just having fun and don't understand the concequences of thier actions. That is a big problem in this city from the school on down. People are not taught the respect for other people's property
You are right about the perps being a bunch of youngsters (probably middle school) who have no respect for other persons or their property. At most elevated stations this would not be a problem because the tracks aren't ballasted - but since the Rockaway el structure is a concrete deck with ballasted track, the stones are available for the vandals right there.
The TRACK is ballasted...are the kids going down on the roadbed to pick up stones then?
If so, then there's an even greater problem at hand
CCTV cameras can be protected with wire-mesh.
So installing a few hundred $$ fence that is mostly impenetrable is more expensive than putting a camera and paying someone to watch kids throw stones at a house?
The throw man power at an issue and make the community look like your are doing something is a hallmark of NYC politics.
The manpower eventually goes away and the problem comes back. A more permanent solution like CCTV would be to bright for local politicos
What manpower does a fence require? It sits there as a physical barrier. CCTV, on the other hand, would require someone to monitor it, and someone to chase the kids away, hopefully getting to them before any windows are broken. Then, after a few months of (maybe) successfully averting vandalism, the manpower is gone and the damage resumes.
The article also stated that the NYPD was going to have officers patrol the area on a very regualar basis focusing on the rock throwers. My point basically was that this would occur for a few months to show the communtiy that they are doing something.
6 months down the road the NYPD are not patroling for rock trowers and the rock trowers are back.
yes the CCTV needs to be manned. But one person can monitor multiple camera's and the cops would be. In addition the police would have picture of the offenders and the time of day they committ thier acts and the camera would act as a deterent to committing the act.
Also, fake cameras. Used by many retail establishments, are very effective. Since you don't know which ones are fake and which are real.
Peace,
ANDEE
yes and far less expensive. Although if you do not have a sufficient amount of real camera's which are resulting in enforcement. The fake camera's are ignored
But the fence prevents people form ATTEMPTING the act in the first place. That's far better than catching in them in the act, where the damage is already done.
yes and No
It is more important to stop the behavior then stop the indiviual act.
Putting up th efence is the solution at this particual station.
There are at least 100 outdoor elavated station in the NYC transit sytem. Installing a fense at each station is prohibitually expensive. In addtion the cctv system is more uses then just stoping a few rowdy school kids from throwing rocks at some lady;s house
There are at least 100 outdoor elavated station in the NYC transit sytem. Installing a fense at each station is prohibitually expensive.
But very few of the elevated stations have track ballast.
Once the kids are arrested and an example made, you can deactivate the CCTV until if and when the problem returns. In this case I just feel that a couple of morons have hit upon something that they feel is "entertaining". This house does not have a big "rock me" sign on it so once you arrest the kids the problem probably won't come back as there are thousands of equivalent vandalism oppurtunities all which have an equal chance of being chosen by the next set of morons.
Here's what I would do.
Put the fencing at Beach 90 St, install a CCTV camera on the platform AND if necessary, undercover cops on the platforms at times when vandals would usually strike.
That's a shame. Probably more lost photo oppurtunities now. Oh well. Life goes on. And I go to sleep.
Take Pride,
Brian
Build a glass house at the station. Because people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
It wouldn't be the people in the glass houses throwing stones. It would be the kids on the platform.
But if the station was enclosed in a glass house, people on the platform WOULD be in a glass house.
Of course, it would be plexiglass right ;-).
From this week's as always informative Destination Freedom Located At: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df01132003.shtml
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Republican Congressional leaders have agreed among themselves to land on the House figure of $762 million for Amtrak – far short of the $1.2 billion Amtrak President David Gunn said he needs to keep the railroad running. That, he said, is rock bottom.
The AP reported on January 10 that under this agreement, Amtrak would lose about one-third of the $1.2 billion figure. That would land America’s intercity passenger carrier at about the House $762 million figure, with Amtrak described as “a big loser” in the transportation budget for fiscal Year 2003, one of several appropriations bills that should have been but were not approved last year because the two political parties could not agree on the bottom lines.
Is a shutdown coming down the pike?
“If that’s the last chapter in the story,” NARP’s Executive Director Ross Capon told D:F.
Of course, you can expect many showdowns between now and that push-shove point.
The news came as the Senate last Friday (January 10) was still in the throes of organization negotiations. Traditionally, the majority party gets two-thirds of the committee staffs and the minority one-third, but this time, the minority Democrats want more than that. This could be the first gutsy test for the new Senate GOP Leader Bill Frist (R-Tenn.)
Word had it that the first hearing on Amtrak would come Tuesday at the earliest. Transportation Appropriations Committee Chairman Richard Shelby (R-Ala.) was already reported to be “leaning” toward the smaller Amtrak figure.
Gunn was warning that $762 million “would guarantee insolvency by spring and the shutting down of the railroad at that time. There are no easy options to any of us if the funding level falls below $1.2 billion,” he said.
If the Bush administration hopes Congress will adopt its proposal to franchise sections of the freight railroad track to multiple passengers operators other than Amtrak, it will meet stiff opposition from the freight railroad industry.
In answer to a direct question Friday from D:F, Association of American Railroads (AAR) President Ed Hamberger, the freight rail carriers’ point man in Washington, said the industry had informed the White House in no uncertain terms of its position.
“Any feedback?” we asked.
“None that I can report,” he responded, leaving the tenor of that closed-door meeting open to speculation.
He said, “We would prefer to deal with one entity, Amtrak, which understands that its [operations in one part of the country] impact the operations on a network [coast-to-coast] basis, and so it’s important, in our view that there be one operator [nationwide] and that operator should be Amtrak.”
Hamberger’s response at the Transportation Table at the National Press Club drew applause from exactly one person in the audience. He recognized or surmised that the lone applauder was from rail labor. (We’ll have a separate story on Hamberger’s remarks next week.)
Speaking of rail labor, leaders of that segment of the Amtrak constituency have been meeting to organize strategy for lobbying in the new 108th Congress. It is not clear, however, that they are all on the same page.
The Transportation Trades Department, AFL-CIO, issued a statement by its president, Sonny Hall, saying that in order to get the economy rolling, you put people to work and that “somebody should tell the West Wing that 40,000 jobs are created for every billion dollars spent on our transportation system.”
He then suggested that would be “real economic stimulus” as opposed to President Bush’s “tax cuts for the wealthy.”
That class warfare rhetoric runs counter to the strategy outlined for D:F (See last week) by United Transportation Union (UTU) Legislative Director James Brunkenhoefer, who said pro-Amtrak lobbyists should impress upon the GOP Congress that many Republican voters ride Amtrak. Slamming the president’s tax policy, he believes, could be a turnoff for the laptop set riding the NEC or seniors with disposable income on long distance trains. Further, some strategists believe it might be counterproductive with the 92 million taxpayers (who are also eligible voters) who have been told they stand to save an average of over $1,000 of their own money through the tax cut program.
Hall is International President of the Transport Workers Union (TWU), with about 1,000 Amtrak workers. Brunkenhoefer’s UTU has about 2,500 members working for the passenger railroad.
At mid-week, Gunn issued a memo to his employees informing them of his plans to discontinue the Kentucky Cardinal between Louisville and Indianapolis (while continuing the main Cardinal from Washington to Chicago) and the Chicago-Pittsburgh leg of the Pennsylvanian (retaining the Pittsburgh-Washington segment at a better travel time). Gunn went out of his way to emphasize that these cuts “are not the start of major changes in services,” but resulted from Amtrak’s phase-out of the express business, which he has said is a money-loser for the company.
During the first week of the 108th Congress, the battleground was being prepared for decisions on the future of rail passenger service in the United States.
NARP set the table for this by warning its members to prepare for a major lobbying effort. Long distance trains, its “Action Alert” read, are threatened on several fronts:
The appropriations figures, backed by the Congressional leaders, include proposals to give the states more responsibility for long-haul trains in particular.
DOT Secretary Norman Mineta’s comments last year appeared to disparage long distance trains, a position which the secretary later softened or downplayed. NARP’s action alert also noted Amtrak’s financial woes, including an austerity program, which could mean reduced maintenance and other problems. It also opposed the proposal to franchise out some services on long distance routes, a measure which is opposed both by Amtrak and freight railroads and therefore likely to have rough sledding ahead on Capitol Hill. Beyond that, ill-informed editorials trashing long distance trains, not a new phenomenon, but an added irritant on top of all other Amtrak threats, also irked NARP’s leadership.
The passenger rail organization said it was wary of a proposal in Congress to put a cap on funding for long-distance trains.
Add to all that the effect of the recession, post September 11, 2001 security expenses, and an increase in Amtrak’s financing costs, and NARP figures its members’ lobbying work is cut out for them.
Meanwhile, one of the first pro-Amtrak shots of 2003 was fired in the halls of Congress when Sen. Ernest “Fritz” Hollings (D-S.C.) introduced the National Defense Rail Act (S.104) aimed, the senator said, at providing “a long-term strategy to build and maintain an effective national passenger railroad system.”
Reflecting most of the features found in a similar bill the senator introduced last year, it would authorize an annual federal investment of $4.6 billion from Fiscal Years 2004 to 2008 “to develop a world-class, national passenger rail system…essential to achieve a balanced U.S. transportation system.”
The measure’s provisions include upgrading “security needs and assessments,” development of high-speed corridors outside the NEC, acquisition of rolling stock and track and signal equipment, developing short distance corridors between large urban centers, and preserving long distance routes in rural areas lacking adequate air service.
Thus, the curtain rises on the “Great Amtrak Battle of 2003” – the 33rd annual “Great Amtrak Battle” of the passenger railroad’s history. This is where I came in.
From this week's as always informative Destination Freedom Located At: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df01132003.shtml
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1 dead, 33 injured in Burbank Metrolink crash
A Metrolink train carrying morning commuters from Santa Clarita to downtown Los Angeles crashed into a pickup truck January 6 at a grade crossing in Burbank and derailed. A truck driver, who apparently ran around the crossing gates, died. At least 32 passengers and train crewmembers were injured, several seriously. One firefighter was also hurt.
Police said the driver, Jacek W. Wysocki, had attempted to run around a closed crossing gate as the four-car train bore down at about 70 mph, according to The Los Angeles Times. The impact severed the cab from the rest of the pickup, flinging shrapnel onto the Golden State Freeway, which runs parallel to the tracks.
The first two cars of the train overturned, sending passengers tumbling, one official said, like clothes in a dryer.
As the train pushed the severed cab of the Ford F-350, it ground the truck into a mangle of metal, leaving the engine block 600 feet from the charred remnants of the driver’s compartment.
Tanya Aguilar was stopped at a traffic light when she saw the truck make a left turn from San Fernando Boulevard onto Buena Vista Street, immediately in front of the train crossing.
“He slowed down and all of a sudden he turned right [around] the gates,” said Aguilar, 23, who said she began honking her car horn to warn the truck driver. “I don’t know how he couldn’t see the lights because they were flashing. I think he was trying to beat the train. When he hit the track, the train hit him right away and it was a big ball of fire.”
“It was awful,” she said. “That poor man.”
The accident occurred at 9:30 a.m., at the end of the morning rush. The 450-ton train’s locomotive pushed the trainset.
The engineer, in the control car, was among the four people who were most seriously injured, according to Sharon Gavin, a Metrolink spokeswoman. The four were taken to hospitals, as well as eight others who were less seriously injured.
Twenty people aboard the train suffered minor injuries, including the conductor, who was in the locomotive, authorities said. Also, one firefighter who was helping with rescue operations was reported hurt.
The train was Metrolink No. 210, and had begun its trip at 8:47 a.m. at the Via Princessa station in Santa Clarita. It had just left the Sun Valley station and was 20 minutes from its scheduled arrival at Union Station in downtown Los Angeles when the accident occurred, not far from Burbank Airport. There were 58 passengers and two crew members aboard.
After slamming into the truck, the train continued on about 1,000 feet before derailing. Several passengers said they saw a fireball, which was presumably parts from the truck, fly by their windows.
“I was reading a book and I felt a big jostle and flames went by my window,” said Ryan Schatz, 26, of Valencia. “Then we rolled over onto our side.” Schatz was on his way to his first day of class at Univ. of Southern California dental school and was sitting in the lead car.
“There was some screaming, but most people were just shocked,” he said. “We were very lucky. It was kind of empty.”
Another passenger, Brad Wohlenberg, said he had just taken a seat in the front car when “suddenly there was a bang and everything started shaking violently, and flipped over.”
He said he managed to lock his legs against the seat in front of him and rode out the estimated 15 seconds that the car screeched forward on its side.
Wohlenberg and about half a dozen other people in the car used hand-grip poles in the car, usually vertical but suddenly rendered horizontal, to pull themselves up and escape through a window.
Wohlenberg, a lawyer who commutes from Stevenson Ranch to his office in downtown Los Angeles, recounted his experience while walking out of Providence St. Joseph Medical Center in Burbank, where he was treated for minor bruises. With him was his wife, Jennifer Wohlenberg.
“This is kind of my worst nightmare,” she had said earlier. “But obviously it came out much better than a nightmare.”
The crash brought out the best in many passengers and nearby motorists who stopped to help. Morning commuters, many in business suits, assisted fellow passengers off the train and onto the tracks. Two retired firefighters (old friends who happened to both be driving by) were among the first on the scene.
“Hey, Jack,” said Charles “Chick” Mokracek, 61, a 30-year Los Angeles Fire Department veteran, as he dashed past longtime buddy Jack Mitchell, the retired Burbank fire captain.
Stan Horst, an off-duty L.A. firefighter and paramedic, was dropping his daughter at Burbank Airport. He looked up, saw a dust cloud, and headed toward the scene.
A 26-year veteran of the department, Horst carries a first-aid kit in the trunk of his car. He grabbed it and headed for the toppled train car just as the first ambulance was arriving.
Horst said he climbed into the car through a door.
The scene inside was eerie, he said. Morning sun streamed through side windows that now faced skyward. The doors on the bottom were pushed upward.
Seat cushions, newspapers and broken glass were scattered. Horst said he found about a half-dozen passengers.
Horst said he helped one man who was suffering shortness of breath. Another woman had broken her arm, he said.
Metrolink service on the line resumed by afternoon.
Neighbors and passersby said they have worried about accidents at this crossing, especially after the intersection was reconfigured about six months ago.
They complained the timing of the traffic lights sometimes causes a backup at the crossing gate. Buena Vista Street leads to an onramp to the Golden State Freeway, and is frequently congested.
“This is a bad intersection,” said Lorna MacKay, 38, who lives nearby and saw the ball of flames from the crash.
“Everybody’s sitting right on top of the tracks trying to get on the freeway. I’ve been waiting for this to happen.”
Burbank Traffic Engineer Kenneth Johnson agreed the intersection is a problem, and said the city plans to add a left-turn signal and widen Buena Vista Street.
A railroad accident investigator for the regional office of the National Transportation Safety Board said the agency has sent three officials to assess the crash.
There's an Image: HERE
Thanks for such an informative posting.
Don't thank me, thanks Destination Freedom. I encourage you to read their full newsletter, but if you don't like how they present their material I will continue to glear relevent topics for SubTalk.
Thanks for posting that.
So not only did the engineer have to experience killing somebody, butgetting severely injured himself. All because of the truck driver's stupidity. Even after another motorist frantically honked to try to save his life. How many chances do you get to live?
Can the railroad engineer sue this (dead) jackass' family for his own pain and suffering?
OK, don't answer that. He paid the supreme price, so his tab's even with the house.
If the man's family sues Metrolink, though, I hope Metrolink's attorney asks the Bar Association to censure the family's attorney.
In medical malpractice, that has actually happened when frivolous cases are filed.
>>> All because of the truck driver's stupidity. Even after another motorist frantically honked to try to save his life. <<<
Didn't you notice the article's mention of the intersection where the accident took place? Have you seen it? Why the belief that only stupidity is the cause of any accident involving a train and others in the world? A left turn (with the train coming from behind him) into a rising sun may have contributed to the accident. The final report of the accident investigation will probably not be widely reported. Jumping to conclusions without all the facts is usually not a good idea.
Tom
From this week's as always informative Destination Freedom Located At: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df01132003.shtml
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A Connecticut state senator has a plan to lure commuters out of their cars and onto Shore Line East trains.
Sen. William Aniskovich (R) of Branford said he planned to propose laws this month that would offer free train tickets for the next 12 years, or until the Pearl Harbor Memorial Bridge (in New Haven) and the New Haven corridor of the I-95 construction projects are complete.
Aniskovich said he will also recommend that the state renegotiate its contract with Amtrak, which now operates the service, and allow Metro-North to run it, reports the New York Times of January 5.
A third element of his plan would increase service frequency so that commuters have more options of fitting the trains into their schedules.
“If we don’t resolve the traffic congestion problem, it’s a potential threat to the job base of the region,” Aniskovich said. “It’s not about that people are angry because it takes 10 minutes to get over the ‘Q’ bridge. The “Q” is a nickname for the Quinnipiac Bridge, also in New Haven.
“The less congestion there is on the highway, the easier it will be to move products into and out of the cities. The biotech industry, for example, will find the region more attractive and may locate their businesses here.”
The Shore Line East train service that runs between New London and New Haven has been a hard sell to many commuters.
On an average day, 129,200 highway vehicles travel into New Haven from the shoreline, according to the state DOT, and there are no signs of that letting up. The numbers are from 2001, the most recent year available.
Even though there is a $500 million deficit in the general budget, there is a $10 million surplus in the Special Transportation Fund, which Aniskovich proposes could be used to revamp the train service. The revenue from the fund comes from taxes on gasoline and diesel fuel and other motor vehicle fees. The fund, created in 1986 in response to the Mianus River Bridge collapse spanning the Connecticut River, was to be used to improve bridges. Now it is also used to pay DOT employees and for town road aid and other transportation-related costs.
Aniskovich said the fund was supposed to be self-sustaining, but now bonds are issued, which requires a portion of the fund to be paid as debt service. “That is the single biggest obstacle to a major investment in mass transit,” he said.
Aniskovich said that Shore Line East would cost a projected $8.1 million to operate in Fiscal Year 2002-2003, with $932,000 of the total cost coming from ticket sales.
Not everyone is convinced that his plan will work.
Harry Harris, bureau chief for the Bureau of Public Transportation, said there are numerous obstacles to increased service.
“There’s no new equipment to meet the service needs now,” he said, and noted, “The equipment we have is old and breaking down. To add more service would only exacerbate those problems.”
As for the financing, the state’s special transportation fund, because it issues the bonds, is required to have a surplus at all times and cannot be tapped, Harris said. He added that there are expenses expected in the next few years that would use up the surplus.
The idea to have Metro-North take over the service has been discussed in the past, but Harris said he has not seen hard data that it would actually work.
Metro-North conductors and engineers receive higher pay than Amtrak employees do and Amtrak owns the land over which the trains travel between New Haven and New London. Hiring Metro-North, it appears, would be more expensive.
If Amtrak no longer had the service contract with the state, the company would charge Metro-North a right-of-way fee. Amtrak does not charge the state for access to the property.
“If the state wants to change operators, that is their prerogative,” said Clifford Black, director of media relations for Amtrak.
“We’re not opposed to talking about the idea. It is not unprecedented for commuter railroads to be operated by other entities on Amtrak-owned property.”
Harris said he loves the idea of free tickets, and thinks it would increase ridership, but he cannot imagine the legislature voting for it in the current budget crisis.
Despite the worsening traffic on I-95 and over the Pearl Harbor Memorial Bridge into New Haven, people have clung to their cars and continued to drive to work, mostly alone.
The trains start in New London, go through Westbrook, Old Saybrook, Madison, Guilford and Branford and end in New Haven with stops at both State Street Station and Union Station
Aniskovich, who is the ranking Republican on the transportation committee, said the only way to make the service successful is to have a lot more trains coming and going, including nights and weekends. The service has exceeded ridership estimates each year that it has been in business, he said.
Commuters have mixed feelings about the train because it has not always been reliable or convenient in the past.
One former rider said she rode the train for about five months in 1994. She said the trip took her an hour and a half versus 45 minutes on the highway.
She had to drive to the train station, wait for the train, travel to New Haven, get off the train, board a bus, then walk several blocks to her building.
Interesting.
I thought Shore Line East was only a rush-hour service. I saw the trains they use. Old, beat-up FL-9 diesels hooked up to equally putrid commuter cars. But it is a real asset.
If it were to run more often, wouldn't it interfere with Amtrak schedules through New London? If I recall right, that's only a 2 track ROW. And to top it off, New Lndon's station can't fit more than one train at a time, due to problems clearing the curve at the platform area. Trains passing each other would collide. Or have they fixed that?
SLE uses a dedicated fleet of GP-40WH's and CDoT Shoreliner or SPV cars. They run reverse commuting deadhead moves as "Off Peak Expresses" and this serves to fit them in better w/ the Amtrak timetable.
From this week's as always informative Destination Freedom Located At: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df01132003.shtml
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Sound Transit’s Sounder commuter rail service was even more popular than expected in 2002, exceeding the projection of 610,000 passengers. At the same time, the Federal Transit Administration (FTA) approved the environmental impact statement (EIS) for Sounder service from Tacoma to Lakewood.
“This is a double dose of good news,” said Sound Transit Board Chair Ron Sims.
“We were pleasantly surprised when we learned that 670,000 people rode our Sounder trains in 2002; that exceeded our projection for the year by 10 percent, or 60,000 riders.” That was a 19 percent increase over 2001.
“This, coupled with the federal EIS decision, is a major step forward. It will enable us to begin acquiring right-of-way and station property for this important addition to our service,” added Sims.
The recent decision completes the federal environmental process – a key step in obtaining final design approval from the FTA.
Meanwhile, negotiations continue with the Burlington Northern & Santa Fe Railroad regarding the Lakewood Extension and service between Seattle and Everett.
“We are making progress in the negotiations,” said Sims, and added, “We hope to have an agreement in principle this year so we can begin the track and signal improvements that will allow many more thousands to choose this time-saving option for their daily commute.”
The Sounder ridership numbers for 2002 received a boost in September when a third round-trip was added between Tacoma and Seattle. Special trains including Mariners Home Run Service, Seahawks Special, and the Holiday Special, also drew record numbers.
In 1996, voters approved funding for Sound Transit to provide a regional system of transit improvements, including Sounder commuter rail, ST Express regional bus service, numerous capital improvements (including park-and-ride lots, transit centers and direct access ramps) and Link light rail.
From this week's as always informative Destination Freedom Located At: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df01132003.shtml
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A new $28-million, federally funded rail station at Ted Stevens Anchorage International Airport was dedicated on December 4, providing a direct connection from trains to airline ticket counter. Although the facility will initially be used by cruise passengers between May and September, local officials hope it will someday be a stop on a commuter rail line linking the city to suburban Wasilla and Girdwood. For now, the Alaska Railroad Corp. will run shuttle trains between the cruise ship dock in Seward and the Anchorage International.
[A new $28-million, federally funded rail station....]
TWENTY-EIGHT MILLION? Sounds like Alaska has its very own Joe Bruno. :-)
Oh ... a WISE guy, eh? Why I oughta ...
For what it's worth, news here is the Capital District Transit Authority (CDTA) has announced MASSIVE cutbacks in service (especially in rush hours) because the $20,000 a year they're paying for bus drivers just ain't bringing them in ... that and the lack of fleet to service existing "customers" ... seems a certain $55 million train station/penis on the Hudson has really screwed up their finances.
Anchorage at least has a POPULATION. :)
Passenger rail is very important in Alaska, where roads are limited, so I'm glad to see this new station going in. Of course, I've been wanting to fly to Anchorage and take the Alaska RR to Denali National Park to see Mt. McKinley for a long time. That's probably my #1 dream rail trip of them all. This would make it just a little bit easier.
Mark
At the southern end of the Alaska RR there's a tunnel that's used for both trains and vehicles. It's a long tunnel too, something like a mile. Vehicles use it during the times when no trains are scheduled. Because it's a single-track tunnel, it can accommodate only one lane of vehicles at a time, with the directions alternating every 15 minutes or something like that.
Another oddity in southern Alaska has to do with sea-rail cruises. When cruise ships dock on the Seward Peninsula, the tourists are shuttled to the train station by motor coach, but since there isn't a road that runs all the way from the cruise ship dock to the train station, the buses filled with passengers are mounted on flatbed railcars and hauled by rail to the passenger depot. I think I have a video showing this, but I'm not sure.
Mark
[...but since there isn't a road that runs all the way from the cruise ship dock to the train station, the buses filled with passengers are mounted on flatbed railcars and hauled by rail to the passenger depot.]
So they have to pay a driver (who doesn't actually drive) AND a train crew?
"A new $28-million, federally funded rail station at Ted Stevens Anchorage International Airport was dedicated on December 4."
$28 mil ?......does that include rails ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The $55 million *we* got stuck with (NYC too) didn't pay for ANY rails in Brunoland, which is WHY Amtrak ain't in no hurry to run the latest out of StupidSteel up here ... but I'd agree, we seem to have a Senator Joe in the works out there in Alaska ... hell, let's grant their wish, let's drill for oil in the walruses. :)
Don't mind me, once folks down in the southern part of the state start getting the bills, now that the election's over, I won't be alone in whining about "you bought WHAT? With money I don't HAVE?"
Five surgeons are discussing who makes the best patients to operate on. The first surgeon says, "I like to see accountants on my operating table, because when you open them up, everything inside is numbered."
The second responds, "Yeah, but you should try electricians! Everything inside them is color coded."
The third surgeon says, "No, I really think librarians are the best;
everything inside them is in alphabetical order."
The fourth surgeon chimes in: "You know, I like pipefitters ...those guys always understand when you have a few parts left over at the end, and when the job takes longer than you said it would."
But the fifth surgeon shut them all up when he observed: "You're all wrong. Politicians are the easiest to operate on. There's no guts, no heart,and no spine, and their heads and asses are interchangeable."
From this week's as always informative Destination Freedom Located At: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df01132003.shtml
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Six historic trolley cars purchased from Portugal 25 years ago and intended for operation in the streets of Aspen, Colo., have been sold. One car was manufactured in 1899 and the other five were assembled from kits in 1925. The cars had been stored in the open near Aspen, partially protected by tarpaulins, awaiting a decision on their fate, according to Rail Transit Online.
That decision came in November when voters and the city council separately rejected plans for a heritage streetcar system. The city already had offers in hand to take the cars for free and the deals were immediately sealed without notice or public bidding.
One car that had been cosmetically restored after an anonymous donor contributed $20,000 was hauled off to Issaquah, Wash., where a short line is already operating and planning is underway for an extension.
The other five cars will go to Issaquah, Tucson and Wanganui, New Zealand. Local trolley enthusiasts protested the swift action by the city, claiming officials had no right under the state constitution to give the cars away unless the city got some benefit. Further, the anonymous donor reportedly stipulated that his gift required the restored trolley to remain in Aspen. However, City Manager Steve Barwick told The Denver Post that it “…is a done deal. We directed the city staff to proceed,” and there are no plans to reconsider.
From this week's as always informative Destination Freedom Located At: http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df01132003.shtml
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The North Carolina Railroad Co. (NCRR) board okayed three track projects on January 7.
The directors, in Raleigh, approved installing continuous welded rail on the NCRR’s main line to add about six miles of double-track between Raleigh and Goldsboro, and install centralized traffic control the railroad between Raleigh and Goldsboro to improve speed and reliability and accommodate more freight and passenger trains.
NCRR has committed $24.5 million for the improvements. The funds for the three projects come from rent paid to NCRR by Norfolk Southern Ry. Co., which uses and dispatches the 317-mile NCRR line.
Spokesperson Kat Christian said, “We have not yet chosen a signal system designer or manufacturer, but we will be talking with Norfolk Southern regarding track design.”
She added, “The rail replacement project will allow heavier freight trains to move faster and more efficiently and promote better service in eastern North Carolina. The track and the signal projects will improve the railroad’s capacity to eventually carry commuter trains such as those being considered by Eastrans.”
“Eastrans” is a coalition of advocates for commuter rail from a four-county region in North Carolina “east of the Triangle, including Wake, Johnston, Wilson and Wayne,” she said.
The CTC project will raise this part of the corridor to the same standard as that between Raleigh and Charlotte.
“Infrastructure is expensive so we cannot move as quickly as we’d like, but we have a plan for upgrades that will give us a steady increase in rail speed and capacity,” said Scott Saylor, NCRR president.
“To help the state compete with other Atlantic Seaboard and southern states in recruiting new businesses and industries to replace the ones we’ve lost, we are improving the railroad.”
NCRR owns and manages the 317-mile rail corridor that extends across the state from Morehead City to Charlotte. The railroad carries more than 60 freight trains operated by Norfolk Southern and eight Amtrak passenger trains daily. The NCRR’s mission is to manage, improve and protect the state’s rail properties and corridors in a manner that will enhance freight and passenger service and promote economic development.
For those who are interested, this afternoon ablout 4:40 Pm while walking out to do my last trip at Metropolitan, on the frieght line next to the station, a train passed by containing all on flatcars:
R142's: 6941, 6942, 6943, 6944, 6945
Right behind those in the same consist came:
M7's: 7005, 7006, 7035, 7036
A few boxcars followed the M7's, I don't know if any other NYCTA equipment was being delivered on this freight train.
way cool! thanks for the info
Cool!! Stef, youre reading this? R142s 6941-45 are coming soon...
They haven't come up as of this writing, so I expect them tonight.
Single Track GO through 3rd Ave is currently in effect.
-Stef
I thought the 7005-6 were already on serives on the LIRR. Maybe you ment 7035-36. I know I could also be worng about this.
Robert
"M7's: 7005, 7006"
Low numbered M-7's....Hmm !...I heard some M-7's went back to Bombardier to have the seating installed and other adjustments made. Some of the early sets arrived sans seats for testing with simulated loads.
Now why Bombardier didn't installed the seats at Hillslide Facility saving the trip back is beyond me.
Bill "Newkirk"
Nice! I will get my butt over to NY&A this weekend to get some shots (IF they haven't yet been off-loaded).
I'll give you a buzz, Stef.
Looks there might be additional Scrap Car Movements. 8930-31 and 9082-83, are candidates for the next set of movements. I observed 9082-83 at the end of track in East 180th Street Yard, this afternoon. There was a sign taped to the storm door window. Don't know what it said unfortunately, but it may have been pertaining to it's scrapping.
Latest tallies say there are 90 or less R-33s still running on the 5. Whatever remains will be from that "rehabbed" portion of the fleet.
-Stef
Peggy's write up of NJT's Montclair- Boonton line and a list of booth closings taken from MTA's site. Before you gripe- Peggy could not get the bullets to wirk even though they were downloaded separately and with the file but persuaded me to publish anyway due to the need to disseminate the info.
"We leave the trunk line West of Newark Broad Street and see the remains of Roseville Avenue, an abandoned station that had two tracks and two low wall platforms. We pass through another abandoned station (name unknown) which had the same features."
I would imagine that the unknown abandoned station would be Ampere, just from looking at maps, I'm not sure, I've never ridden the Montclair M&E or the Montclair-Boonton line, so I could be wrong.
Other than that small gripe, sounds good, please extend my thanks to her for posting that on her website.
Does anybody know if NJT ever plans to extend the electrification out to Denville on the old Boonton Line? I know that the M&E line runs roughly the same route, but there must be some demand for more service on that line. Perhaps just a double tracking program would be in order at first, increase the # trains, and hopefully drum up business.
Crap-ass politics consume New Jersey with 'We don't want any more development.' Rail extension and electrification is a benefit....I'd shift to 207th, quit my Manhattan apartment and be able to zoom in from the milkhouse siding in Frelinghuysen Township!
Frelinghuysen has the highest per-capita property taxes (education.)
Too many phoney farmers growing grass for grazing....the truth shows up when these 'dedicated farmland preservationists'sell out to developers. Farmland assesment is BS...I worked hard to rebuild the farmland stands on my property only to see my work destroyed by vandals and lost my farmland assesment. The vandals were misfit children of failing farmers Build, build build. Homes.schools, hospitals, libraries, police stations, firehouses, shopping malls and NEW RAIL FACILITIES. The Eastern Hub is a mecca of scientific and industrial development. Intelligent people build decent housing and pay FULL taxes. Chuck the grass/pot farmers into Grand Central landfill....make them pay to clean out their landfills full of old machinery and chemical wastes. WE WANT TRAINS!!! CI Peter
Last night WHYY in Philadelphia aired a program called "Chicago by L: Touring the Neighborhoods." It was a line-by-line tour of the city via L (obviously) that while mainly focused on what there is to see along the L lines, showed lots of L footage and had a healthy amount of information about the system. I don't know when of if it's airing again, or if it aired at all on WNET or NJN, but the program has its own website:
Chicago by L: Touring the Neighborhoods
Mark
I've seen this - it aired for the first time in Chicago last year, I believe. I'm surprised they're showing it elsewhere, but it certainly is well produced. The same guy also did two other similar "tour" programs, one on the Loop and another on the lakefront. All very interesting, with plenty of historical (though mainly non-train-related) information thrown in.
Frank Hicks
On Monday and Tuesday nights WHYY aired his shows about architecture in the Loop and the Lakefront parks, respectively. The reason they aired all three is that there was a three-part American Experience on the history of Chicago. After each episode, WHYY aired these Chicago tour shows in conjunction. I really liked getting to watch both series together, seeing Chicago's history and what it's legacy is for modern Chicago. I liked the L show because the American Experience didn't cover L history that much (nor would I expect it to) and the tour show filled this gap nicely. I also liked it because it stopped in my Dad's old neighborhood of Pilsen. I have a writeup of my last visit there on my website:
The Mural
Mark
I just saw an R-32 on the (F) nb at 59 St - CC. Are R-32's rare on the (F) these days?
---Brian
They're not as rare as F's at 59th/cc. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Oops, I meant at 42 St / 6 Av. Sorry.
---Brian
Rare-ish. They are in regular rotation on the (F), but they are a small minority against a buttload of R46s.
:-) Andrew
It is kinda rare indeed.Last Friday I did some railfanning which included the F,and I was lucky enough to ride the only R32 running on that line all day long from Av X-Roosevelt Av.I didn't see any other's going in the opposite direction that day,just a whole crap load of 46's.
Yeah, my impression is that there is only one set of R-32's on the F line. It's always a nice, happy surprise when it comes, because I often am able to cop the railfan window since I always ride in the head car. I like the Smith Street outdoor curve/ramp and to look at all of the switch arrangements around 2nd Ave. and Jay Street. It's also good for a peak at the spooky, trash-strewn tracks to Bergen-Lower Level. In fact, on a weekend last year, I was fortunate to come upon a Coney Island-bound R-32 F train during a G.O., which had all F trains running express between Jay and Church (and I do mean actually express, not the "express" C/O's announce when supervision corrects train-spacing by having F trains skip from B-way Lafayette to Delancey to Jay St.). I was so excited about the convergence of these two rarities, an R-32 consist on my line and a lower-level Bergen/Smith/9th Express G.O., that I kept riding past my stop in Park Slope and continued through the express tunnel under Prospect Park, and even beyond Church all the way to Stillwell (once on the Culver, regular local service resumed), where I indulged in some Nathan's Franks while sitting on a bench looking at the ocean!
I remember the GO in the summer of 2001 where F's running express from Jay to Church Av but I got a R46, which wasn't so bad b/c I was just enjoying the rare opportunity. It was NOT a battery run, which made it even better. Man it builds good speed via express, I hope a Culver express could return in the future. I mostly talk about the Brighton but the Culver is my home line too [hey, I just happen to live between the two lines :-)]. You had a real treat getting a 32 NOT doing a battery run but running on the express tracks and the railfan window, a perfect way to top it all off.
If you live where your handle indicates, I gotta tell ya, that's one helluva nice neighborhood. I pass through it on my way to the grocery store. Now I know what my grandfather meant when he visited my childhood home in an older Pennsylvania suburb (my parents' block was developed in the 1920's) and said, "This looks like Flatbush." It's true. The 2 neighborhoods are indistinguishable!
It's fun riding an R-40 Slant throught Flatbush too, since its open-cut there (as I recall -- it must be, since the Beverly Road stop, which I pass all the time, has a somewhat fancy station building at street level with steps going down).
Hey, if I looked closer, I'd bet those houses even have driveways! Perhaps even (*gasp*) a garage! (The envy of all who live in Park Slope's parking hell....)
Yes, the Brighton express is great & speedy[the best express service IMO] and Beverley Rd's stationhouse is a beauty. The houses on the Brighton do have driveways; its tough finding parking in the Slope since the houses are built closely together.
And not too far off, a house along Argyle road, about 2 blocks off my favorite line, was the setting for the 1982 film "Sophie's Choice"
Kool-D, isn't that the house at the corner of Glenwood and E. 18th? I know it has a wrap-around porch...
Could be, but Argyle road is the other side of Glenwood. I have on ly read in an article about the location, so one day I will have to check this out.
I remember that G.O. perfectly.I rode through it too,only prob was that I rode through it on a R46 while I saw like 2 or 3 R32's go the other way and me cursing the holy hell at those 32's cause that's what I wanted to ride on through the G.O. and didn't know when one would show up so I settled for the first thing that came...a damn R46. >.<
One set of R32's on the F is one set of R32's too many.
But at least it's something different than the norm. Seeing nothing but R46s becomes bland after a while.
I agree, a variety is nice once in a while if a line has one exclusive car model.
Not when you LOVE the R46.
There's about 4-6 R32 sets on the F since some of the R46's were sent to the V.
Wouldn't you know it, I saw another (or could be the same) R-32 (F) train on my way home from work. This time it at 47-50 Sts.
---Brian
This time it at 47-50 Sts.
should have read: "This time it was at 47-50 Sts."
you could say their rare on the F line,this past wed,i was lucky to
get on an R32 f train,the car# was 3367,the funny thing was that
during the trip to brooklny,the t/o was having problems with the front
LED on the car,it said #1 on the front,i tried to help,the t/o gave
me some candy,oh well.
til next time
I saw what appear to be new, free standing, advertising boards screwed into the concrete of the unused center platform at 59 St - CC. Each one has 4 panels. They say "Viacom" in small print at the bottom. Are these new? I didn't see them last night. I'll try to get a photo this afternoon.
---Brian
They've been there for at least 8 months. They have had ads on them. The first series was for Washington Mutual Bank and I cannot recal what the second series was. They have been empty fro about one month.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ok, so far I'm oh-for-2 today with posts.
---Brian
Probably haven't had your coffee yet.
Peace,
ANDEE
So far two days in a row I have been waiting at the sb platform at 59 St - CC and a (B) and a (D) have arrived at roughly the same time. Both times, the (D) went first. Is this part of the schedule, or a dispatcher decision?
---Brian
It depends on what they need at 34th. So, I guess you could call it a distpatcher decision,
Peace,
ANDEE
With a few exceptions, B's and D's are supposed to alternate into 34th. (There are one or two occurrences of consecutive D's; I don't think there are any consecutive B's.)
That doesn't help you determine which is leaving first, though. Look for holding lights or, failing that, homeballs.
Both times I got onto the B, but then the C/R made an announcement that the D was leaving first.
---Brian
I'm surprised. Usually there's no announcement for fear that the entire trainload would dash across the platform -- especially in this case, since the B and D run the identical route south of 59th.
This happens anyway. One train starts to leave before the other and the mad dash begins. Perhaps the B or D scheduled to arrive at 34th St first should leave the station before the other train pulls into it.
Not that it matters, but the time of the meet is about 7:57 AM.
---Brian
The official timetable says that a D train is supposed to leave 59th Street southbound at 7:51 AM and its follower is supposed to leave at 7:59 AM. It also says that a B train is supposed to leave 59th Street southbound at 7:52-1/2 AM after being held to its leaving time and its follower is supposed to leave at 8:01 AM after being held to its leaving time. It looks to me as if the D train in question is the 7:59 AM departure and that it's being sent in front of the B train that's supposed to leave at 8:01 AM...in other words, everybody's doing what they're supposed to do.
(BTW, scheduled running time on the B from 125th Street to 59th Street is 11-1/2 minutes at that time of day. The first B train I mentioned should be in the station for 2 minutes and the second for 2-1/2 minutes).
David
Depends on what time you were at the 59 St/CC station. Also it depends on what train is not at 34 St yet.
This may just be a coincidence, but I remember years ago if the S/B B train left 72nd Street station before the D passed it... The B would leave 59th-Columbus Circle first.
Wayne
I did a lot of B/D riding on Tuesday.
First was from 42nd to 96th. I started on a D, because it came first; there was already a SB D waiting for access to the terminal. We were held for a minute or two at 7th Avenue, and we had to wait again for access to the express track at 59th. Less than 90 seconds later, a B arrived.
Second was from 81st to 34th. First a D passed on the express track, then a C arrived a minute later. I got on and rode to 59th, where the D was waiting.
Third was, again, from 42nd to 96th. This time a B came first. It met an A at 59th.
On three of the R-68's I rode, I sat under a sign box, and all three times it sounded like the sign box would fall on my head. It didn't, but is this something that should be looked into? (Train Dude?) I've never noticed such a loud rattle on the CI R-68's.
The D is the express, it should go first. Besides, holding it for a B to cross over would clog up the express track delaying A trains.
Please elaborate. Why should the express necessarily go before the local? Local riders are in as much of a hurry as express riders. Similarly, why do you worry about the D delaying an A but not the B delaying a C?
In general, if the schedules don't answer the question of which should go first, and neither train is being closely followed by another train, then whichever route is less crowded should leave first -- to encourage better distribution of passengers. (If the two routes merge without a cross-platform transfer in advance, then whichever route is likely to have more passengers needing to transfer to the other should leave first. For instance, before 7/22/01, Q's should have had priority over B's merging onto the Manhattan Bridge, since more Q riders needed access to CPW than B riders needed access to Queensbridge.)
>>"For instance, before 7/22/01, Q's should have had priority over B's merging onto the Manhattan Bridge, since more Q riders needed access to CPW than B riders needed access to Queensbridge.)"<<
Usually, the pattern was B/D/Q in that order. At times though the B would beat the Q to the Manny-B and had a advantage since the B used the Dekalb bypass tracks. I think you got it backwards, the B gave access to CPW and the Q needed access to Queensbridge; if people wanted to avoid transferring at CC, then they could of transferred at West 4 St for the 8 Av line.
Almost every time I rode the NB (orange) Q over the bridge, it was stopped by Myrtle to allow a B to slip through. I invariably wanted to catch that B to take me to 59th, where I could transfer to the 1/9. Instead I had to wait for the next D or climb up two flights at W4. (The orange Q had no transfer points to the 1/9.)
North of their divergence point, the Q had only four more stops, none of them with transfers. I don't think many B passengers needed to transfer to the Q. A few, sure.
>>Almost every time I rode the NB (orange) Q over the bridge, it was stopped by Myrtle to allow a B to slip through. <<
It's no different now. Qs routinely wait at Myrtle for Ws to pass by.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Except that there probably aren't as many Q passengers who need the W as there were Q passengers who needed the B. For those going to 49th or north of 57th, the Q is likely to pass an N along the way, and the N and W are identical north of 34th. Some people bound for Queens will use the 4/5 as a shortcut from 14th to 59th in any case. (I still think it's silly to grant blanket priority to one line over another at a merge point, but at least this time around it doesn't seem to kill any transfer opportunities.)
How about N's vs. W's at 36th (on weekdays, when both run express) -- does one typically have priority? Changing the topic, if I'm on an N and I want a bridge train, what's the best strategy? If I feel up to it, I'll ride in the last car of the N and peer down the tracks from 36th to Pacific. If I see headlights, there's probably a W behind the N, so I transfer at Pacific. If I don't, I'll probably be better off catching a Q at DeKalb, since the Q runs about twice as frequently as the W.
>> Except that there probably aren't as many Q passengers who need the W as there were Q passengers who needed the B. <<
Perhaps. But the service pattern is the same (West End trains running Express in Manhattan trump all Brighton trains), and both were brought about by Manny-B reconstruction reroutes. When (if?) the Manny-B completely reopens, it'll be interesting to see what sort of service patterns emerge.
>>How about N's vs. W's at 36th (on weekdays, when both run express) -- does one typically have priority? <<
You've got me there, I don't know. I seldom ride out that way, and all my observations at DeKalb are from a passenger's perspective.
>> Changing the topic, if I'm on an N and I want a bridge train, what's the best strategy? If I feel up to it, I'll ride in the last car of the N and peer down the tracks from 36th to Pacific. If I see headlights, there's probably a W behind the N, so I transfer at Pacific. If I don't, I'll probably be better off catching a Q at DeKalb, since the Q runs about twice as fequently as the W. <<
I think you've nailed that one....assuming your destination is somewhere in Queens.
On the other hand -- without knowing where you're going -- how much time do you ultimately save by trying to switch or switching to an express? I'm constantly amazed at the number of people who will *race* across the northbound platform at Church Ave on the Brighton line to catch a diamond-Q -- often giving up a seat to do so -- seemingly oblivious to the fact that they're only saving one stop and perhaps 3 minutes in travel time.
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
We agree on the express-local issue. Unless I specifically need the express to get where I'm going or the I'd bypass very many stations on the express, I don't get off the local at an intermediate express station to wait for an express (I do transfer if the express happens to be sitting across the platform from the local, except on the rare occasion that I have a seat and I don't want to stand on the express).
In general, this saves me time -- my local is usually not passed by an express. Those who advocate always using the express whenever possible forget to consider wait time.
IRT passengers seem to agree, for the most part -- when I ride the SB 1, few people get off at 72nd to wait for the express. IND passengers seem to disagree strongly -- look at what happens at Roosevelt. BMT passengers seem to fall somewhere in between. I don't know why -- the IRT has the quickest express runs and the shortest headways (in general) on the express, so it would seem most advantageous to wait for the express on the IRT.
BTW, an express typically saves about half a minute bypassing each local stop. If two Q's meet at Church, one will be directly behind the other at Prospect Park. (The express will obviously usually be first, but I'm sure the local is sent through first occasionally.)
Many times it doesn't pay to switch to the express. Although I have to admit I am one of those people who many times runs across the platform if there is an express across there. However I don't do this if I am actually comfortable and sitting on the local. Most of the time, especially if you are not going a long distance on a particular line, it doesn't pay to switch.
The one exception may be the Lexington line. If you are going uptown on the local and at let's say Union Square there is a chance to switch to an express, it's usually a good bet that you will pass the 6 in front of the one you are on before you get to Grand Central, and certainly if you are going further uptown. But it works there because the 6 has such great headways. On other lines you don't have that luxury (except for maybe the 7).
>>"BTW, an express typically saves about half a minute bypassing each local stop. If two Q's meet at Church, one will be directly behind the other at Prospect Park. (The express will obviously usually be first, but I'm sure the local is sent through first occasionally.)"<<
True but not always. Sometimes they would leave Church Av at the same time and the express gets held at the bypass of Parkside Av, letting the Q local switch in front heading towards Parkside Av.
On the IRT, you usually pass a local train or two b/c the trains run so frequently. However, I feel that the West Side IRT express [both the 2 and 3] could use a little more service on weekends. The only time I get off a local to catch the express is if the express is arriving on the platform and when I am doing a long distance trip [particularly via the Lex Av line].
>>"BTW, an express typically saves about half a minute bypassing each local stop. If two Q's meet at Church, one will be directly behind the other at Prospect Park. (The express will obviously usually be first, but I'm sure the local is sent through first occasionally.)"<<
True but not always. Sometimes they would leave Church Av at the same time and the express gets held at the bypass of Parkside Av, letting the Q local switch in front heading towards Parkside Av.
The only people who can decide which will go first in this scenario are those who have been riding from before Newkirk AND paying attention. If the local has been bypassed by an express prior to Church Ave, the local will get to Prospect first; if it has not been bypassed, the express will go first.
Why do you think the West Side IRT express should have more weekend service? It already has more service than the local and the local is more crowded north of Times Square (standing room only on Sunday mornings between 8 and 9, IME). If more service is added, shouldn't it run local?
I know right, I just hated when that happened, it slowed the commute a bit, especially on the bridge. The only time people from the B transferred to the (orange) Q northbound was if they were heading toward Queensbridge.
"Why should the express necessarily go before the local? Local riders are in as much of a hurry as express riders. Similarly, why do you worry about the D delaying an A but not the B delaying a C?"
Absolutely correct. Normally the 59th St. dispatcher will announce whether the B or D will leave first. That will be determined by schedule. The train scheduled to arrive at 34th St. first will leave 59th St. first - period.
"Why should the express necessarily go before the local? Local riders are in as much of a hurry as express riders. Similarly, why do you worry about the D delaying an A but not the B delaying a C?"
Absolutely correct. Normally the 59th St. dispatcher will announce whether the B or D will leave first. That will be determined by schedule. The train scheduled to arrive at 34th St. first will leave 59th St. first - period.
"Why should the express necessarily go before the local? Local riders are in as much of a hurry as express riders. Similarly, why do you worry about the D delaying an A but not the B delaying a C?"
Absolutely correct. Normally the 59th St. dispatcher will announce whether the B or D will leave first. That will be determined by schedule. The train scheduled to arrive at 34th St. first will leave 59th St. first - period.
Well because the C makes local stops and has an opportunity to be "held" at a station to maintain proper spacing. The A and D expresses however, have a long express stretch between 125th and 59th. Perhaps holding a train at 125th so by the time it gets to 59th the track will be clear.
The idea is to avoid bunching, which seems to happen very often whenever I take the A, especially at Rush hours. Delaying an express makes it late, and on average, the express carries more riders, so the later it gets, the more door holding, loading time,etc (positive feedback cycle).
I just think that if you decide to put a B in front of a D at 59th, the D has to wait, the A behind it gets delayed.
Generally it should be whatever comes first, but if they come in at the same time the D should go first.
Posts like this are exactly what get my ire up. I work on the C. Want to know what a typical day is like for me?
I start at 168th Street. When I get to 145th Street, I'm held in the station for the B to get in front of me. I follow behind the B until 59th Street. Once there I have to wait for the tower to give me the lineup. then I proceed to 50th Street where I am held for not one, but two E trains to cross ahead of me. I follow behind at a snail's pace until I get to Canal Street, where guess what? The A is now pulling in! Guess who gets to leave first?
People have the nerve to talk about slow the C is? And call it the worst line in the system? Well, look how it's being treated! At ten minute headways, the C should be be given the right of way whenever it reaches one of the main junctions, especially given the fact that there are two A trains and two E trains for every one C train.
The bottom line is, whoever gets to the signal and switch first should be the one to go first. I'm sick of hearing, "This is the A line.", "This is an E line tower." I'm tired of hearing about superintendents bullying the C line ordering tower operators to put their line's trains ahead of the C.
Every line is important, not just the express ones. The sooner the higher ups learn that, the better train service will become.
Damn, the C already has it tough but getting held up so much like that, its not right and its unfair; shows you that some lines ARE favored over others. Well the C IS slow in terms of headways but I do agree with you that it should have preference for leaving first at the stations w/junctions but the tower has the final say and that's it.
When I get to 145th Street, I'm held in the station for the B to get in front of me. I follow behind the B until 59th Street.
Don't feel too bad. When I was working on the B, I had the same problem - only then the culprit was a C. I can't tell you how often I plodded along one station behind a C from 145 to 59.
I don't necessarily fault the B for that. It's bad scheduling. There are supposed to be five minutes between the B and the C trains on CPW. For some reason, they schedule both to arrive at 59th and 145th Streets at about the same time.
"When I get to 145th Street, I'm held in the station for the B to get in front of me. I follow behind the B until 59th Street. Once there I have to wait for the tower to give me the lineup. then I proceed to 50th Street where I am held for not one, but two E trains to cross ahead of me. I follow behind at a snail's pace until I get to Canal Street, where guess what? The A is now pulling in! Guess who gets to leave first?"
Let me give you a bit of insight. 145th St tower is an 8th Ave line tower. 59th St is an 8th Ave Line tower. Canal St. is an 8th Ave. tower. If the C is slow, it's because the line's own supervision slow it.
If the C is slow, it's because the line's own supervision slow it.
That goes without saying. The point I was trying to make is, no other line experiences such inconvenience. The line and the crews on it go through enough headaches and hassles without other people recommending that other lines cut in front of it "because it's a local."
Not true. What happens at Dekalb Ave. Exactly the same thing. Queens Plaza - same thing.
My experience at other locations has been that the line whose superintendent controls the tower gets priority over all others. For example, the C tends to be erratic because (AFAIK) its Line Superintendent doesn't control any towers, so it's at the mercy of everything else.
Your description would seem to suggest that the Columbus Circle dispatcher reports to the D Line Superintendent, and thus must give the D priority.
59 master reports to the A line Superintendent. This is why B and D service backs up in the morning on the northbound - As keep getting put in front of Ds.
With the exception of four occurences in the morning rush, 6th Ave service leaving 59 southbound goes D - B - D - B - D - B (there may be some in the PM rush - never looked).
What a stupid system.
Stick to the schedule as much as possible. Barring that, use the preferences I outlined in a post a few minutes ago.
Towers shouldn't have allegiance to some lines over others. It's a subway system, no?
Peggy will lead a tour of the Queens Blvd IND and Crosstown Line on Sunday 1/26/03. Meet at McDonalds in Penn Station at 9am. It is located near the LIRR ticket windows.
We will take the 1/2/3 train to 14th Street to get the F to 4th Ave and back to smith and 9th for the G to Queens.
Stops include:4th ave F, Smith and 9th, Bergen, Hoyt, Broadway, metropolitan/Lorimer complex,Greenpoint, Court Square Complex, Queens Plaza, 74/Roosevelt Complex, Woodhaven, Continental, Union Turnpike, 169 and 179 plus Jamaica Van Wyck, Sutphin/Archer, parsons/ Archer.We will do both branches,the order depending on which train comes first at Union Turnpike
Cost: One fun pass. Dress warm, trip truns rain or shine. Trip will cancel if there is 1 foot or more of snow on the ground or predicted for that day as of 6pm Saturday 1/25/03.
A lunch stop will be planned at expense. Dress warm!
As usual, Peggy will reserve the right to alter stops if G.O.s effect the service.
Cotact: peggy-darlington@mindspring.com
DAVE: Please post On coming events page
In the spring will come Eastern Division, ans the two SOuthern Division tours.
Shoot, I would have loved to come, but I'm going to be 3000 miles away that week. Too bad, I was looking forward to her next tour because I really enjoyed the last one. Oh well, I'll have to wait for the next one....
Tell Peggy she may have a little trouble with that day...it's also Super Bowl Sunday if there are football fans here.
Don't worry, it starts at 9am so it should be over well before the Super Bowl starts.
Giants n' Jets r' dead, GO Philly!
Totally not into sports here. Only the sport of railfanning...
Take the 1/2/3 to 14th for the F?
Wouldn't it just be easier to walk the one block from Penn Station over to 6th Av?
While it would, this will allow some coverage of 14 and 6. Peggy will poll the group when the tour begins.
Super Bowl- It is not a Big Apple Bowl or even the Northeast Corridor Bowl so enjoy the next best thing-- the subways.
or set the VCR or Tivo or Personal Digital Video recorder and do both.
Peggy is on vacation that week.
For those who attended the previous tour, she will bring some CDs with saubway pictures available at a cost of $5.00
The game does not start until 6:17, so by that time we should be wrapping up the tour, and who cares about which teams will play this year anyway? Certainly not the 2 JOOISEY teams from the East Rutherford swamp.
Question: Does that mean we may be able to get a glimpse of the lower level of Roosevelt Ave from the east end of the current station?
Noooo! That's the day that of the lecture over in Hoboken at the museum! Can you postpone your trip???
On Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 3 pm, transportation historian, Brian J Cudahy, author of "Rails Under the Mighty Hudson: the Story of the Hudson Tubes, the Pennsy Tunnels, and Manhattan Transfer" (Brattleboro, VT: Stephen Greene Press, 1975; reissued Bronx, NY: Fordham University Press, 2002) will provide an illustrated lecture on the building of the Hudson and Manhattan tunnels Mr Cudahy, who also authored "Cash, Tokens, and Transfers: A History of Urban Mass Transit in North America" (Fordham, 1990) will discuss the engineering advances that made the "tubes" and rapid transit possible, as well as the ways the tunnels have changed the lives of New Yorkers and New Jerseyeans by physically linking them as never before A book signing will follow audience discussion.
Brian,
Thank you for stating that. This was my dilemma as well.
Will someone kindly take notes, as I won't be able to attend Mr. Cudahy's lecture (I'll be in Florida at Lotusphere 2003).
--Mark
In that case, I'll trade you some notes for a few copies of expensive software that I can ebay.
---Brian
So I guess we have a lot of NYCT fans here and not a lot of H&M/PATH fans. Oh well. I would have liked to have attended Peggy's tour.
---Brian
Peggy's tour is at 9am. The PATH lecture is at 3pm. Peggy's tour will probably be nearing completion by then, if it runs about as long as her prior tours.
What are you saying? That you are planning on going to both?
---Brian
Ask me at 2:30.
That doesn't give you enough time to get to the lecture.
---Brisn
Barring any change of plans, I'll probably come on the tour and I would like to meet some Subtlkers in person.
Sounds like fun! Finally we are gettin some field trips. Maybe an oppoortunity to see the elusive R32's on the F that I've heard about....
Its true; there are R32's on the F but you have to get lucky b/c there are very few sets on the Culver line.
I see the tour includes the 63rd Street tunnel, hope you get a railfan window equiped car !
The only question I have: What is that bellmouth on the Queens bound track after 21 St going toward the Queens Blvd connection?
Could it be a provision to have the tunnel extend in that direction onto a new line in the future? If they ever decide to do so.
I think it was supposed to go to the new super express line bypassing most QB stops.
You are correct. Origianly the 63rd Street connector was not supposed to connect to the Queens line like it does now. It was origianlly supposed to be a super express by passing the Queens line and off to Eastern Queens.
Future extendtion[the original routing]of the line east to Jamaica,with the addtion of new storage space for layups in the Sunnyside Yards....
I would like to know the when production started for the R-36 WF and when it ended (last delivery date).
According to From Horsecars to Streamliners by Alan R. Lind, the R-36 contract date was November 30, 1962, the first cars were shipped on August 23, 1963, and the last cars were shipped on August 7, 1964. I know this information isn't exactly what was requested, but it should help.
David
The story continues, from The Boston Globe.
Heath St runs 16 trains in their rush hour and drop to 8 off peak. Yesterday the whole Leachmere yard was sent to Riverside and Resivior for Inspection since Lechmere has no facilities just storage. Hopefully the DTE dosent deem the type 7's unsafe and pull them OOS then they will have the Boeing fleet consisting of 55 cars to run the Green ine.
Stevie™
From the MBTA.com website:
Green: All green line service is on or near schedule.
Effective at 3pm this afternoon, due to operation difficulties, the "E" Branch ( Heath St.) on the Green Line, will not run train service. Additional bus service will be added on bus route #39 which follows Huntington Avenue, providing transporation for passengers desiring E Line service. Passengers desiring outbound service to Heath Street should board any train to Copley station. At Copley Station, please board the route 39 bus service to Heath Street. Passengers desiring service to Lechmere take any train to Government Center and change for service to Lechemere. Please expect delays on the rest of the Green Line as a result of this problem. Passengers are encouraged to utilize the Orange line to further acess the downtown area.
I'm sure that Huntington Avenue and Lechmere passengers would disagree with the MBTA's assessment that Green Line service to their destinations is "on or near schedule".
And I'll bet service on the B, C and D routes is nothing to write home about, either!
JD
Yes, it's true
Today on my way into school I hopped on the MFL at 8th and Market after getting off the PATCO. I wound up on the second car in the consist, 1025, and worked my way into a good standee position (those cars suck to stand in, narrow aisles, suburban seating, lack of handrails, etc). About the time we passed 15th st, the crowd in the front car diminished enough that I could look all the way through the car and out at the tunnel ahead. What greeted me wasn't the usual little kid in the RFW cheering as we sped under the schuykil, but a strip of yellow caution tape strung between the hand holds at the front doors of 1026. I would have gone forward to check it out, but I was having a hard time standing as it was (man were we moving, maybe 50 some mph under the river!), and didn't trust myself to change cars while they bounced all over the place, plus I was running slightly late for a calc lecture (which was canceled anyway, would have been better off staying on the train).
Oh well, does anybody know anything about cordoning off the front few rows of an M4 set? I've never seen it before, is Septa following NYCTA's lead in ridding themselves of RFWs? Or was it something like a small maintenance problem? Could the T/O do this kind of thing and not get in trouble for decreasing the capacity of the car?
Thanks
That's awful. I'm sorry to hear about that. I hope it never happens again.
---Brian
There's no legitimate reason to do that. And it reduces capacity on the line.
Write to SEPTA and find out.
Address: Customer Service
SEPTA
1234 Market Street
Phil PA 19107
Um....before you get someone in trouble....
The M-4 uses CCTV for it's OPTO service. The yellow barrier tape is in the cab. If the CCTV fails, They hook open the cab door, put the tape across and use the door controls in the little locked door above the first side window (Which also opens with a key) While I have never seen it done, This sounds like that is the reason why.
Some LIRR engineers carry a length of chain with snap hooks that they use to cordon off the RFW area on M-1/3's. Others just leave the cab door open, obstructing the RFW. That's when the head car is open at all, as on off peak trains the head pair is often closed to passengers.
Maybe it was reserved for Salaam Allah !
Bill "Newkirk"
in today's Patriot-News (Harrisburg, PA):
Amtrak Struggle Renews
Good editorial.
The NEC and its rail systems are a critical public utility - as critical as electricity, water, sewage and gas.
I would like to know what cars operate on each of the IRT Lines. Are all the Mainline R-33s and R-36s gone from service? I still see occassional Mainline R-33 trains on the IRT #4 and #5 lines. What lines are the R-62As running on? I saw R-62As with the Pelham stickers on the IRT #3, #6 and #7 lines. I saw former Pelham R-62As now on the IRT #1 and #3 lines. What are the car assignments now on these IRT lines?
Paging WideCab5.... sounds like we have a subscriber..
1/9: R-62A (5-car sets)
2: R-142
3: R-62A (5-car sets and singles)
4: R-33ML, R-62 (5-car sets), R-142A
5: R-33ML, R-142
6: R-142A
7: R-33WF, R-36WF, R-36ML, R-62A (5-car sets and singles)
The former Pelham R-62A's (with yellow stickers) were scattered around the 1/9, 3, and 7. Usually the stickers are updated pretty quickly, except lately on the 3, since the 3's R-62A's will soon be swapped with the 4's R-62's (if all goes according to plan).
The R-33's have been off the 2 since August 2002. The R-26/28/29's have been off the 5 (and out of service for good) since October 2002. The R-29's and R-36's have been off the 6 since late 2001, I believe; the R-62A's stuck around on the 6 until around the middle of this year, I think.
The final plan, unless it's changed:
1/9: R-62A (5-car sets)
2: R-142
3: R-62 (5-car sets)
4: R-142, R-142A
5: R-142
6: R-142A
7: R-62A (5-car sets and singles)
(There may be a handful of Redbirds, R-33ML's I hope, floating around the system indefinitely -- I've heard rumors both ways. I don't know where they'll run, but I'm hoping the 2.)
The 7 will keep its R-36 last, so the 4/5 R-33 will go first, then the 7 in a few years.
A few months, you mean.
A majority of the Pelham R62A's are on the 7 and some cars did indeed make its way to the 1 & 3 lines, therefore letting the 3 have 10 car trains at all times.
Here's the car assingnments now AFAIK.
R33---->4 & 5
R33WF-->7
R36---->On the 7 now
R36WF-->7
R62---->4 and occasionally the 5
R62A--->1,3,7 and occasionally on the 5
R142/142A->2,4,5,6
No R-62's ever run on the 5 except during GO's and other unusual events.
I believe the same applies to the R-62A's now. Before 9/15/02, there was one 1 - 5 interline that used R-62A's:
And long before that, the 5 borrowed a few Pelham R-62A's to accomodate the late night OPTO shuttle. But now the shuttle uses R-142's and the practice of interlining has been largely abandoned.
Interlining is not so necessary nowadays.
>>"No R-62's ever run on the 5 except during GO's and other unusual events."<<
That's why I said occasionally. A GO & unusual event [i.e. unexpected service disruption] falls into the occasional category.
Anything can happen when there's a GO.
That's not quit true gentlemen. Back in the late 80's, there would be one r62 or r62a assigned to the 5 line for the morning rush. I remember this because I use to take the 5 to school in the morning. The r62a would be a loaner from the 3 line, the r62 of course came from the 4 line. They would keep the 62a for about a week, but the 62 would go back that very same day.
I remember during that same time, there one or two Livonia R62As operating on the "4" train.
It was kind of weird, for 2 classes of trains that looked almost identical, IMO there was no comparison as far as speed goes. The R62 accelerated faster and seemed to move faster than the R62A.
It was like the R44/R46 situation.
That's not quit true gentlemen. Back in the late 80's, there would be one r62 or r62a assigned to the 5 line for the morning rush. I remember this because I use to take the 5 to school in the morning. The r62a would be a loaner from the 3 line, the r62 of course came from the 4 line. They would keep the 62a for about a week, but the 62 would go back that very same day.
It's not the year of everyone's lord.
I'm glad you picked up on that one. I missed it.
---Brian
I would like to know what cars operate on each of the IND-BMT Lines. Are all the R-40Ms being moved from the BMT L line to the N line? I still see R-40M and R-42 trains on the BMT L line.
Are the R-68s and R-68As being moved around? I saw several R-68A trains on the BMT N and BMT Q line. On the weekends, I see more R-68s on the BMT W line. If so, where do the R-68As go on the weekends?
What lines will the R-160s run on in the future? What cars will they replace when in service? Which lines will get them first?
What will be the car assignment when the Manhattan Bridge is fully open and the Coney Island terminal is finished in 2004. What cars will be replaced by then?
Maybe we should start charging by the hour.
I was wondering what will be for the future of the BROADWAY train station since the only renovation that came through was for the actual ticket house and NOT the platforms on both sides. I was they made a big ceremony the other day and I heard said in one of the posting on SUBTALK that the money was only available at the time to fix up the ticket house and nothing else....why is that, when other stations along the line have been fully renovated and this won't be it seems for sometime to come.......it seems rather stupid to fix one thing and not the most important part of the station.
How could Broadway be the most important station on the PW line? Bayside and Great Neck have many more customers than Broadway station, the need for platform extensions at Bayside station is immenient and necessary.
Uh, not to nitpick here, but he didn't say "the most important station". He said "the most important part of the station". And for that, I gotta agree. You could board a (high-level door) train at a station without a stationhouse. Without platforms though, it's a hop up at best.
You obvious don't get what is the issue here. The issue is poor planning and possible lawsuits as the platforms crubble away at the Broadway station.....that is the REAL issue...not whether Great Neck or Bayside, which I live right next to the train station, needs longer platforms. Both station have enough platform coverage and don't have decaying concrete like the Broadway station. Plus both station get more trains stopping at each place so that there really isn't much overcrowding.....
So KOOL-D...you need to check your figures.....before posting your issues.
"Bayside and Great Neck have many more customers than Broadway station, the need for platform extensions at Bayside station is immenient and necessary."
Old news. Bayside's renovation, including full ADA compliance and 12-car platforms, was completed three years ago. Great Neck is fully ADA compliant and it got a rehab too. Auburndale is being rebuilt and made ADA compliant (does anybody know if they have finished it?) So it was Broadway's turn.
What about the stations at and near Flushing? They're practically rotting! Thanks to Forgotten-NY's Kevin Walsh, he has a feature comparing the 'Jeckyll and Hyde' stations. Flushing is missing out!
What about the stations at and near Flushing? They're practically rotting! Thanks to Forgotten-NY's Kevin Walsh, he has a feature comparing the 'Jeckyll and Hyde' stations. Flushing is missing out!
I could understand the whole pointless arrow thing, but what in God's name is that new logo supposed to represent?
The pointless arrow was more like Amtrak's management--it had its head up its ass.
The new logo? They probably went to the same design firm as Bank of America, and got a discount rate for using only one color.
A dearth of creativity, no doubt produced by a highly-paid graphics designer. It's highly unmemorable, since I had to go to the Amtrak site to refresh my memory. It fails every test a logo should pass - a symbol that identifies the product. If anything, it resembles a three-lane highway on a hill.
Most recent transit agency logos suck. The current MTA one sucks too. I liked the two tone M better (and in fact, the LIRR actually just repainted a switcher with it :) Beats DC's lame Metro one, which LA ever so tactfully knocked off. Metro is a stupid name anyway.
BART has a cool logo, though.
Corporations? Most suck now. GE, IBM, etc have nice ones, but the computer industry needs a hit over the head with theirs, and mosteveryone else does too.
Industrial design is a dead art in the US too. Years ago, everything was beautiful, now it's all bland blah boxes. Nobody takes pride in anything anymore :|
Nothing's user friendly now either (and man, the Cannon Imagerunner at works SUCKS HARD).
Coca Cola has to be the all-time classic. Runners up are Ford and General Electric. Two railroad logos come to mind: Penn Central - the intertwined "P" and "C" (very suggestive), and Illinois Central - the "I" and "C" forming a stylized rail cross section. That was discarded when IC became Illinois Central Gulf with the GM&O merger.
Enron's logo was nice and colorful (as many times as we got to see that on TV)
...and highly apropos. "The Crooked E" was the name of a TV movie about the debacle. That logo fits the current image of that corporation admirably, IMHO.
Not sure they have an official explanation, but it looks very much like rails going over the horizon, without the crossties. (The three white bands are the ground, and the two gaps between them are the rails.)
Not sure they have an official explanation, but it looks very much like rails going over the horizon
Well, that was my first immediate impression. I got right away that it was 2 rails foreshortened to simulate tracks moving down a horizon. I guess I'm in the minority, but I like it--both the symbol and the accompanying lettering. I think it updates 1970's styling to the 21st century. At any rate, it's a lot better than the old "pointless arrow."
Hey, I like the pointless arrow. I wish they would keep it.
I like Amtrak California:
One step forward, three steps back!
The dumbest logo in transit history has to be the SNAIL LIKE former logo of the Central New York Regional Transit Authority (CENTRO)
My favorite logos are the original two-tone blue M for the MTA, SEPTA, and NJ Transit. I even like the logo for the New York State Bridge Authority. But the top logo was the CNJ "Liberty" logo.
I liked the red and blue ta logo.
Before that I liket dthe red and green BML LINES!
Elias
Hey, don't diss the pointless arrow! If it is good enough for South Africa, it is good enough for Amtrak.
From this morning's New York Post. I'm sure we all could have easily forseen the day when a conservative Republican administration in Washington would be forcing New York City to figure out how to spend $4.5 billion in funds .
And on the plus side, the story also included these paragraphs:
Gair said FEMA is committed to paying for rebuilding the World Trade Center PATH station, which was destroyed in the terror attacks, and a complete renovation of the Broadway Nassau subway station, which was not damaged.
The agency will also pay for a new underground concourse connecting the two stations.
But he said FEMA has informed City Hall its money cannot be used to dig a tunnel under the East River as part of a proposed direct rail connection to Kennedy Airport - which Mayor Bloomberg has made a priority.
So apparently, FEMA cares more about building the right type of projects for people in New York than the mayor does, which is pretty embarassing.
"So apparently, FEMA cares more about building the right type of projects for people in New York than the mayor does, which is pretty embarassing. "
You didn't understand what you just read, so put the rocks away.
The mayor included a list of projects he wanted. From the length of that list, it's pretty obvious what the strategy is: Ask for a lot, and declare victory if you get part of it (understanding up front that FEMA is not going to give you everything you ask for). It's an old gambit, but it works very well.
I don't agree with a new tunnel to JFK as a priority, but that doesn't mean the Mayor doesn't know what's important for New York. I like the fact that FEMA is basically telling everybody to stop the pissing contest, zip up their pants and get back to work.
Asking for too many projects also tends to disperse any common consensus towards deciding on any one project, and moves the project itself towards inertia. The entire WTC reconstruction project also could head down that road, given the various competing ideas being thrown about right now.
New York City transit projects have been consumed by that problem for over half a century (see the Second Ave. subway, over and over again), mainly because of the variety of competing interests for city/state funds and the lack of a strong determined leader at the top who knows what he wants (which is why Robert Moses was able to roll over the city's leaders for the better part of 30 years and get his projects done).
Bloomberg certainly has shown some hard-headedness on certain issues, and I hope you're right that some of his ideas were just bargaining ploys. But I haven't seen any statements that show his heart is into any downtown-related transportation project other than the proposed JFK express connector. His main subway project seems to be the 7 line extension -- which I think is worthy, but which FEMA won't release WTC funds to build.
If it turned out this isn't a clever ploy to ask for more than you can get to get what you want, and Bloomberg really does have tunnel vision (no pun intended) on the JFK project being the best thing NYC can spend the $4.5 billion on, getting smacked down by FEMA could either force him to refocus and look for more realistic and useful options, or it could send him into a "to hell with it" rich billionaire pout and the city might end up with a ridiculously opulent $3 billion Port Authority underground transit hub at the WTC site, and very little else to show for the federal money because the New York had no logicial plans on how to spend it and the PA did.
Yes, that's entirely possible.
Look at it this way, though:
Possibility 1: We sit here for 10 years getting nothing, and the whole WTC rebuilding gets bogged down with it (gotta take care of underground first)
Possibility 2: The Mayor loses the pissing contest; we get PATH reopened, a new overpriced transit mall and a fancy overpriced corridor between PATH and the subway. But consider that now, you can start putting up the new WTC memorial, buildings, plaza, etc. WTC will be reborn. And the remaining 3/4 of the $20 billion in federal rebuilding money finally gets released.
If the price we have to pay is using FEMA money to gold-plate PATH and the transit mall, fine with me. It's peanuts in the long run and a whole lot better than spending the next twenty years looking at a hole in the ground.
Screw it - just get on with it and don't complain too much.
Something is better than nothing. It's just that given the opportunity here to create something that hasn't really ben possible to do for two generations, I'd hate to see it thrown away on overbuilding the PA's transit center, especially since whatever gets built on the WTC site would no doubt include an extremely functional transportation hub.
As I've said in the past, my perferred way to spend the money would be to find out how far uptown FEMA would allow the $4.5 billion to go as part of building a full-length Second Ave. subway line, with a connection to the Nassau Loop so that the feds could see the project would directly benefit the WTC area. And even is they only allowed the money to be used for rebuilding the Center St. tunnels and for the ramp connections at Chrystie St., they might be willing to allow the money to alteratively fund the Water St. extension for the line -- it doesn't directly serve the WTC, but it would boost downtown access.
Either one would benefit more people than a JFK express, and surely someone at City Hall or at 2 Broadway has thought of ways to spend the funds besides the Fulton-B'way transit cewnter and a 21st Century Train to the Plane for commuter rail-oriented downtown workers. Hopefully, after FEMA's comments, we'll see some of those ideas come forward over the next month or two.
Wouldn't it be nice if we Subtalkers could declare martial law, suspend the Constitution, appoint a small committee to rebuild the WTC transit facilities, kick everybody out to do it, then let 'em back in as we're cutting the ribbon on it...
OK, OK, let's not do that...
Dammit, but the're no sense in not even trying... :-)
A SMALL committee of SubTalkers? We could never cut the ribbon, because we couldn't be allowed near the scissors once we were done fighting about it. I, for example, think the money should go to integrating PATH better with Divisions A & B, which the Feds might buy into, but that would extend planning (not the money) all the way to 34th.
Look at it this way, though:
Possibility 1: We sit here for 10 years getting nothing, and the whole WTC rebuilding gets bogged down with it (gotta take care of underground first)
Possibility 2: The Mayor loses the pissing contest; we get PATH reopened, a new overpriced transit mall and a fancy overpriced corridor between PATH and the subway. But consider that now, you can start putting up the new WTC memorial, buildings, plaza, etc. WTC will be reborn. And the remaining 3/4 of the $20 billion in federal rebuilding money finally gets released.
I'd say that Possibility 1 is much more likely. PATH will get rebuilt, but beyond that I don't anticipate anything getting done. I recall saying not too long after 9/11 that the WTC site would be a weedy hole in the ground for at least another decade. I stand by that prediction.
If the terrorists had destroyed major buildings in another city, say the Sears Tower or some of the Century City towers, there would be construction cranes in action today. But this is New York, the city where nothing gets done.
"I recall saying not too long after 9/11 that the WTC site would be a weedy hole in the ground for at least another decade. I stand by that prediction. "
You're already wrong. If you visit the site, you will see that over 75% of the site, and over 50% of the bathtub, is built on, from the foundation up to 1 story below street level.
In fact, despite a lack of publicity, the footprint of 2 WTC is already heavily built on for the very sizeable "temporary" PATH station.
Really? They must have been working very fast in recent weeks. I was there in November and all there was in the hole was the 1/9 line running across in its "tunnel", and the PATH station under construction. Nothing else. Are you sure the "up to 1 story below street level" section that you saw wasn't the i/9 line?
" Are you sure the "up to 1 story below street level" section that you saw wasn't the i/9 line?"
The "up to 1 story below street level" is:
- sections of 4, 5, and 6 WTC that have not been demolished and will not be demolished.
- the 1/9
- the PATH station, which takes up a large portion of the bathtub.
I am not claiming buildings are being built. I am just saying it can't be a weedy hole in the ground because much of the hole is already filled in.
I recall saying not too long after 9/11 that the WTC site would be a weedy hole in the ground for at least another decade. I stand by that prediction.
You're already wrong. If you visit the site, you will see that over 75% of the site, and over 50% of the bathtub, is built on, from the foundation up to 1 story below street level.
In fact, despite a lack of publicity, the footprint of 2 WTC is already heavily built on for the very sizeable "temporary" PATH station.
I don't mean the rebuilding of the 1/9 line and PATH. I mean buildings replacing the WTC. So far, there isn't even the hint of any agreement as to what form the replacements will take.
"So far, there isn't even the hint of any agreement as to what form the replacements will take."
Well, there have been *two* architectural competitions, which actually represent quite a lot of hints, albeit contradictory ones, which have been extensively discussed on this board.........
Here in the UK, many people believe (wrongly - owing to our crap newspapers and their sloppy reporting) that the design of the British architect Norman Foster has been accepted!
Am I the only one who sees a little lesson in New York politics here? Not to mention the perennial musical question: "Why Wasn't/Isn't the Second Avenue Subway Built?"
Even when the City and State have $4.5B in federal funds begging to be spent, they dither and argue.
Reminds me of when the 42nd Street light rail looked like it was going to happen. Light rail was considered so hot that the Mayor and City Council were fighting over who had the rights to designate further light rail lines (like 34th, 14th, whatever).
Instead, we have no light rail at all, nor realistic plans either.
Am I the only one who sees a little lesson in New York politics here? Not to mention the perennial musical question: "Why Wasn't/Isn't the Second Avenue Subway Built?"
Even when the City and State have $4.5B in federal funds begging to be spent, they dither and argue.
I'd be interesting in knowing whether the $4.5 billion is irrevocably committed. If it isn't, it would not surprise me in the least to see the federal government eventually withdraw its offer and leave the City and State with a goose egg - which is exactly what they'll deserve.
It's not so simple. Any WTC-hub related construction must also consider the following:
Passenger flow and load factors from whatever gets built above and what the stations below will be carrying (i.e. station type, PATH vs. subway or intermodal vs. separate plats and terms for each service).
Restoration of commerce in and around (and in this case, through) the WTC hub. Remember, the original terms fed a big shopping mall with entry to PATH, the 1,2,3,9,A,C,E,N,and R lines. Any new hub is going to have to restore access to these.
Relocation of trackage and utilities to replace what was destroyed.
Suitable retaining structures to keep the Hudson River out (again) during construction.
All this will probably swallow up a goodly portion of the $4.5B if everybody focuses on the problem at hand. It could be better than what used to be there, if only everybody (politicians) have the eyes to see it. I'm waiting to railfan it. :-)
Good for you. I like your attitude.
It depends on how much of the $4.5 billion could be "reallocated" towards some of those goals. If they decide that since the Port Authority's transportation center is underground, that the cost of shoring up the bathtub should come out of the $4.5 billion in funding, it will disappear in a heartbeat. Doing that would also take a major financial cost off the hands of the PA, Larry Silverstein, or whoever builds the WTC replacement, since they would basically be given a free 100-foot deep steel-and-concrete foundation from which to start construction, possibly even with a bi-level underground shooping mall built in. We all should get gifts like that front Uncle Sam.
If I were someone in the city government or the MTA involved in downtown mass transit development, I'd raise holy hell if that deal went down. But it's an entirely plausable secnario, and it would be a shame if that's where the bulk of the money goes.
That's what happens when you have dysfunctional politicians "represesnting" us here in NYC. You're right, this is real embarassing to NYC & its a shame. I'm glad FEMA saw that Mayor Doomberg's proposal was flat out stupid and that it benefits us.
I think that once they decide to build something there. The Feds will allow as much money as needed to flow in to finish the project. I just thing they are upset now because nobody can figure out what they want there.
Just a little reminder in a trivial note that the Mott Avenue-Far Rockaway terminal of the IND "A" line was finally opened in regular IND Division service on this date 45 years ago on January 16, 1958. The other stations on the Rockaway line stations (except perhaps the single Aqueduct Racetrack platform) were originally opened on June 28, 1956, and Wavecrest-Beach 25th Street with its side platforms was once the temporary eastern end terminal for a brief time.
Mott Avenue-Far Rockaway station is currently the easternmost NYC Transit facility anywhere on its subway system, and really the nearest to the Nassau County-N.Y.C. Limits border. In addition to the "A" line beginning and ending its runs there now, other well known IND division established routes like the "E" and "HH" (or even as the "H") plus the occasional rerouted "CC" (or "C") have been there at that spot too.
-William A. Padron
["Welcome to Toonheads..."]
The original LIRR station was across the street where the shopping center is now. In 1958 the LIRR station moved geographically east (operationally west) to its current location on Nameoke Street off Central Avenue.
The original LIRR station was across the street where the shopping center is now. In 1958 the LIRR station moved geographically east (operationally west) to its current location on Nameoke Street off Central Avenue.
Quite a morning on board MetroRail and MARC this morning. As of 6:30, WTOP Traffic Reporter Lisa Baden reported delays on the Blue and Yellow Lines between Crystal City and Pentagon City and all MARC Brunswick Line trains were experiencing delays of 20-30 minutes. Get to the Metro, and the PIMS sign outside fare control says
RED LINE
GLENMONT
6 CAR TRAIN
8 MINUTES
First assumption is that the sign wasn't realizing there was a train before the one it was claiming would arrive in 8 minutes, but it then switched and said DELAY: RED LINE IN BOTH DIRECTIONS. Since I had to get to my desitnation on time, I wasn't too happy, but I heard an outbound train come in and ran downstairs. Got on and discovered it was one of my usual trains, so everything was on schedule. Platforms on the Glenmont side seemed slightly more crowded but not excessively so. At Grosvenor, where this train was terminating, we had to switch to restricted manual so that the doors could open since a train was on the pocket. I asked my operator why the signs said there was a delay and the following ensued:
Operator: There is no delay.
Oren (me): The signs say there is.
Op: What line?
Oren: This one
Op: Well did the sign say why?
Oren: No
Op: Well, I don't know, they didn't say anything
(apparently, the fact that a train that should have been gone from the pocket before he got there didn't occur to him)
He proceded to close up, then waited about FIVE minutes for the train on the pocket to move out, during which time a train from Shady Grove did come and go. When I was walking towards the buses, I saw 2 trains behind the one waiting for the pocket to clear. No idea what was going on with the Shady Grove/Glenmont trains. During all this, an occasional message saying that the Blue and Yellow lines were single tracking came up.
Should the MTA consider a seatless shuttle for the Grand Central - Times Square train sets? What's you view?
avid
I suggested this a ways back. Makes perfect sense.
Perhaps a test run could be made during the rush hour, using a set of the EP motor cars? Wait, only one door!
The R110As , there you go!
avid
It makes perfect sense if you are not handicapped. How about seats on one side of the car only. Big sign: "Please yield all seating to the Handicapped".
Nah... The probably would not want to be singled out like that.
Elias
i suggest seatless posting to subtalk. maybe that'll cut down on some of the nonsense threads like this one.
(sorry, I couldn't stop myself).
who dat? Winona Rider?
avid
Why should they waste money on retrofitting train cars for a seatless shuttle? A lot of people ride it and standing only room is common so I say NO.
No seats means each car can carry more passangers.
I say leave it the way it is.
Yes, and throw in some hay and it could be a REAL cattle car.
I wouldn't mind no seats if the shuttles kept moving at very quick intervals, but it's very unpleasant to stand - especially sandwiched
in - on a train that's just sitting in the station for very long.
There would and should also be accomodations for older folks, pregnant
and people with disabilities. As the baby boomers age, there will be
so many old folks around, no seat shuttles might be cruel.
I agree, they're not thinking about the elderly, the handicapped, pregnant women, etc. And besides, should they ever consider doing that, it will be shot down so quickly and it DOES cost money to remove the seats and make other possible modifications so I'm against seatless trains too.
When the Times Square renovations are complete (Phase III is the Shuttle platforms, won't start until 2005-2006 at the earliest), the 42nd Street shuttle will be the first line in NYC subway history to be fully ADA accessible (albeit, only two stations).
I'm glad to hear it! A beautiful actress friend of mine is in a wheelchair. She was paralyzed from the waist down in a slip on the ice as she left ABC studios where she was shooting a soap opera. Once
you've spent a day with her, you realize how exhausting every day and every trip is.
There are so many obstacles! She is determined to keep moving. She even has a dance company now. She's on the board of two actors' unions.
She advocates for people with disabilities. To do this better, she went to law school. She is amazing.
I will be glad to see our city more user-friendly for her and others.
Hooray!
"She was paralyzed from the waist down in a slip on the ice as she left ABC studios where she was shooting a soap opera."
Paralyzed from the waist down from slipping on the ice ?....That's down right horrible and frightening. Late January 2000, I slipped on ice while on the job. I fell backwards and as an impulse, I tried to break my fall by extending my arm. I guess I did this to prevent my head from strking the concrete. It happened too fast. The result was I tore the rotator cuff in my right shoulder. A bent on sugery orthopedic surgeon insisted on an operation to repair the damage and that was no guarantee.
A second opinion from another orthopedic surgeon insisted on physical therapy to make things right. Thank God for second opinions. The road was a long painfull one, but I can use my right arm much like before the accident, though I don't have the same strenght. I was out of work five and a half months. Luckily, my banked up unused sick time got me through, which was restored after my Workers Comp hearing.
The front cover of the 2001 subway calendar of the R-142A test train on the Dyre was photographed shortly after my accident. Since I didn't have much range of motion, I shot that pic with my arms down, close to my chest. Sounds crazy, but since I would be out of work for many months, I had to do something to keep my sanity and photography was it.
Just goes to show you how frozen water can be real trouble.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill,
Yes, you got lucky. My friend was half-way down a set of concrete stairs outside the building when she slipped and hit her neck on a
stair above her.
BYW, where is the Subway Calendar sold? At the Transit Museum?
Won't the Prospect Park elevators be up and running before 2005? That should take care of the Franklin Avenue shuttle. Or is Botanic Garden not ADA-compliant?
I believe Botanic Garden is ADA compliant but the transfer to the IRT is not.
There is no elevator at Botanic Garden station, only a short flight of stairs down. Despite what it looks like at that station (Yellow tactile warning strips), it is not an ADA station, the only station on the Franklin Shuttle line that is not ADA compliant.
Which brings us to a burning question that I embarrass the MTA if I have at the Brooklyn hearing. If any one elevator at an ADA compliant station breaks down for any reason (usually is the case), then NYCT must fix it ASAP or it could be in violation of the Federal Americans with Disabilities Act. At Grand Central (Flushing platform), the elevator leading to the #7 platform has been out for over a month now. Just a few days ago, a sign was finally put up by the doorway "OUT OF SERVICE UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE".
***"At Grand Central (Flushing platform), the elevator leading to the #7 platform has been out for over a month now. Just a few days ago, a sign was finally put up by the doorway "OUT OF SERVICE UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE"."***
My bride* uses a walking cane and uses the #7 to and from Grand Central regularly.
If she was answering this post, she would ask
"Did the elevator to nowhere ever operate?" Also she tells me
frequently of how the escalators at booth R238 at Grand Central to
the #7 platform are OOS.
*also after some other postings on this board, she's is still my
bride 35 1/2 years later.
;-) Sparky
Time for an ADA suit. Amazing how BART couldn't be bothered to do decent elevator maintenance until they were taken to court. Now,they keep them working most of the time, AND regularly announce/post list of OOS so on entering ou know to change travel plans.
ADA Suit? The MTA and NYCT can be found liable for any of the following ADA violations: (This is a partial list)
1. 34th St/Penn. Station (1,2,3, 9 lines) is NOT ADA compliant (yet!)becuase the #2 train runs local and the express platform is closed. But it does not say on the map.
2. Elevator out of service, and not repaired within a certain time frame.
3. A train rerouting due to trackwork, AND the are no instructions for what a disabled person must do to get back to that station. (e.g, if N/B #1 train bypasses 66th Street, due to G.O., the disabled person CANNOT use 72nd st, he would have to go ALL the way to 242nd st/Van cortlandt Pk and come back down.)
4. TTY equipped phone is not working.
There are others too, but I don't know if it's ADA related or not.
The express platform at 34/Penn on the west side IRT is closed? When did that happen? I used it just yesterday.
Between midnight and 5:30 AM every day, all #2 trains run local. That's why the express platform is closed. So there is no wheelchair access until the elevators to the local platforms are finally complete.
Since September 15, 2002 the express platform has been in use. It is only inactive during the midnight shift when all service is local
I look at my post and that is what I left out. The #2 runs local during midmight hours and I made that correction too earlier.
When the Metro made its debut in 1976, the Gallery Place station was delayed due to lack of operating handicap access.
They should install a escalator at the Atlantic/Pacific complex, it is SO MANY stairs to walk up of. The elevator at Frankiln Av from the C to the shuttle is usually out of service as well and you have to walk up a million stairs [figure of speech] and its exhausting by time you reach the shuttle platform.
The 7 at Grand Central has an elevator? I wasn't aware that the MTA had installed it.
Time to light a fire under them.
It took FOUR years and constant flooding to just install that elevator. Not only the elevator does not work, the new LED displays over the platform (showing date/time, side you are on, transfers, etc.) are incorrect on the weekends. on Saturday and Sunday it shows "TRANSFER AT TIMES SQUARE FOR N, Q, R, S, 1, 2, 3".
Don't bother going there this weekend or the next 2 weekends after that, G.O. affects #7 train service between QBP and TS.
Have you seen the elevator at the Penn Station ACE IND express platform? It's sunk about 3 feet below platform level and must be accessed by a steep ramp, one which no wheelchair could navigate without extreme difficulty. Sometimes I wonder who designs these things.
Think that ramp is steep at Penn station? Try the up ramp at the mezzanine of 161st St/Yankee stadium to the elevator which leads to the upper mezzanine and the uptown #4 train platform.
"Have you seen the elevator at the Penn Station ACE IND express platform? It's sunk about 3 feet below platform level........."
So is the elevator at 14th and 8th Ave. The reason why is because of the low ceiling at platform level. If the ceiling was higher, there would be no mini ramp down to the elevator. Think of the elevator aparatus on top.
Bill "Newkirk"
john- email me off-site and I will try to find an alternate route for you. I'll be away from my pc the rest fo today and most of tomorrow but i will answer as soon as I can. Be sure to incldue starting location and ending location.
BTW- 125 and Lex elevators out till July.
The question about Penn: The local plats are being done but the contractor. Excel, went broke. I do not know if a nerw contractor is ont he job yet.72 and Broadway is under construction
IND: Full ADA. West 4 is under construction.
If you desire ADA info between a station pair e=mail me off-site and I'll try to handle the request. Be aware that mechanical problems are out of my control. If there is a G.O. please advise and I'll try to give a work around. The isntructiosn given to us for such cases is to request police if a customer requires elevators and is stranded due to mechanical problems or G.O.s.
I regret the problems your lovely bride is facing.
It's very generous of you to work hard to address an individual problem.
But there is an MTA management problem that is also at issue, that you personally cannot address. This is that the MTA seems unable to (a) convey accurate information about the status of supposedly operational elevators and (b) keep elevators in good repair on a consistent basis.
I agree with you. I can not fix that problem, but since I am a S/A and know the system including island vs wall platforms I could offer that degree of help.
Regarding ADA compliance- the system is old and as such qualifies for waivers for many stations due to station design (Union Square on the Lex) or historic features or if renovatiosn are less than a specified dollar amoutn (Which i do not know). Of course, any new construction such as 7 to Javits or if Second Ave Line ever gets built must be fully ADA compliant.
What is amazing is the NYCT's inability to buy new elevators taht work. 191 ont he 1 has two "new" and two "old" elevators. The enw ones are out more than the old ones and even more amazing is the use of an oputside contractor to fix the new ones. We'd call our people and they look at the new one and determine it is a problem and then they call the contractor to repair the elevator or keep ti out ofd servcie for parts.
I have worked elevator stations and a trapped customer or E/O (elevator Operator)is an emergency and we do hit our EBCS immediately, to the point of closing the window if needed to deal with the crisis. We also talk to the trapped E/O or customers via a second phone or intercom and assure them help is on the way.
Our supervisor will also call on the regular booth phone (yeah- we are using three phones at once!)
A supervisor will also respond as will police and E & E (Escalator & Elevator) people. If all elevators are out of service and there is no alternate exit, trains will be instructed (by Stations Supervision to RTO) to skip the station. Those already in the station will be evacuated by emergency stairs which will be usable afetr inspection by supervision or under specific authorization by supervision.
All transit employees concerned must write a full report and medical will be offered to those who were trapped. If a customer is in the station and all elevators are out of service and they are trapped we also hit the EBCS and request police assistance. Stuck elevators are a high priority call for Police as is a fire ro other evacuation need.
If all elevators are out of service and there is no alternate exit, trains will be instructed (by Stations Supervision to RTO) to skip the station. Those already in the station will be evacuated by emergency stairs which will be usable afetr inspection by supervision or under specific authorization by supervision.
Wouldn't it be easier just to have a train stop to bring them to the next station?
I do not make the rules. I just obey the rules. The rule is cited in a Bulletin and in the Elevator Operator Manual and instructed by supervision.
But there is an MTA management problem that is also at issue, that you personally cannot address. This is that the MTA seems unable to (a) convey accurate information about the status of supposedly operational elevators and (b) keep elevators in good repair on a consistent basis.
I would add (c), repair broken elevators (and escalators too) in a non-ludicrous amount of time. Constant breakdowns ((b) above) would be somewhat more tolerable if repairs could be made on a quick basis.
As far as turning escalators back on, this is not rocket science. All TA employees should be equipped w/keys to turn them back on. IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
I once saw an amusing sign posted at 63/Lex, by the elevator from the mezzanine to the street, giving instructions on what to do if the elevator is out: go back down to the platform, take an F to 34th, and take a bus back uptown (never mind that no northbound bus stops at 63/Lex).
Haa and they really expected people to do that :-\.
A subway car without seats? I'm sure that would be welcomed by the elderly and the physically handicapped.
Have a few at each end for those who need like on an airport people mover. Of course, then we are going to hear complaints of "no one got up to give me a seat" from those who need it.
The 42nd street shuttle is essentially a people mover being only 2 stops. The franklin ave shuttle is a different story.
[Should the MTA consider a seatless shuttle for the Grand Central - Times Square train sets?]
The Shuttle functions as a horizontal "elevator" anyway, so it might as well look like one.
Longer term, though, I'd suggest something a little more radical: Slab over the tracks and install airport-style moving sidewalks over Tracks 1 and 4 (one in each direction). The space over Tracks 2 and 3 would be a walkway for those who choose to walk. There'd be breaks at 5th and 6th Avenues to allow for entry, exit, and transfers to B/D/F/V.
That is a really creative response, but I wonder how long these people
movers would take (especially with the interim stop) as compared to
the trains? I also wonder if people would block the "walking lane" just standing there with their stuff the way they do at airports?
[...I wonder how long these people movers would take (especially with the interim stop) as compared to the trains?]
Longer, naturally. On the other hand, there'd be no waiting for a train to arrive and leave; it would always be there, waiting for an intending passenger. And there'd be no need to run from track to track wondering which train will leave first.
Avid,
You bringing up this old subject again. It's been proposed but never
instituted since the LoVs were running on the GCT~TS Shuttle.
;-) Sparky
It's been proposed but never instituted since the LoVs were running on the GCT~TS Shuttle.
I believe it was tried briefly. Perhaps, you blinked and missed it. :-)
'twasn't a frequent rider of the Times Square\Grand Central Shuttle
in my youth.
;-) Sparky
'twasn't a frequent rider of the Times Square\Grand Central Shuttle
in my youth.
Now that you are a responsible adult, you can check the NY Times index from the mid 1950's. Details of the experiment should be there. :-)
Another idea I heard that goes with that was to have more doors (a door where the windows are for instance).
Definitly, the trains are too crowded and the ride is too short. The MTA might consider folding seats in along the walls as during off-peak hours the non-full trains might dwell in the terminal for some minutes.
Should the MTA consider a seatless shuttle for the Grand Central - Times Square train sets?
It was tried nearly 50 years ago. Public opposition brought back the seats within a week.
Hehehehe, I made you all look, well they used to be there anyway:
Seriously, actually, see the next post for the purpose behind this post.
A few questions about City Hall Station. I haven't been through the station or the loop since I took this photos of the station back in the mid-90's.
1. Are the lights in the chandeliers still lit (as well as any other lights)?
2. The vault lighting above the station. Was that glass clear glass, or was it stained-glass when the station was new?
3. Do they have any plans anymore to do any kind of ceremonies, or anything at City Hall for the subway's 100th birthday (and the station's) on October 27th, 2004? It seems like such a shame that such a major milestone would be passed up to renovate the station. I know Guiliani killed the plans for a annex there to the museum, but is anything planned there? It's such shame that such a beautiful station and such a piece of history, is allowed to just sit there. At least they didn't let it completely fall apart like other abandoned stations like 91st ans 18th, etc, but I still can't believe that there is no attempt going on to renovate the station for that day, and future enjoyement.
It would be such a jewel if they would restore the ceiling windows, along with the rest of the station.
I agree, its a damn shame that they are allowing the station to deteriorate, its the first station ever built, it should have some type of special ceremony in October 2004. I really don't know the answers to your questions but I was just responding to #3.
no it is not the first station built. 28th and columbus circle were,IIRC
I think they should make the loop mainline too. What's the harm in allowing passengers to take the ride thru.
You can. Last I heard it is revenue trackage.
You're kidding - the loop is so tight you have a foot gap from just he end doors of cars, and only the first 3 cars would fit because it is original IRT local length - it was fine when IRT cars had doors at the far end of each car, but they haven't run in decades. Finally, it's only across the park from Brooklyn Bridge station which is why it was closed in the first place.
I wish it was accessible too. It was beautiful to see when I visited on a tour some years ago, but you can't miss a 10 car train screeching by on that loop. No, it's only a beautiful artifact.
The station is closed, like Worth, 18th, and 91st. I believe passengers are (technically) allowed to ride past it, just as they're allowed to ride past Worth, 18th, and 91st.
So the next time my faimly decides to go to NYC again, I can techincally board the 6, stay on at Brooklyn Bridge, and ride through City Hall w/o any TA official rasing hell about it?
Officially, I believe so. (This changes from time to time, and I may have missed a change.)
Some T/O's and C/R's insist that all passengers leave the train at Brooklyn Bridge. Whether you want to argue is up to you, but I doubt arguing will accomplish anything -- I'd just get off the train and wait for the next one. If you're not in the first or sixth car, it's unlikely anyone will say a word to begin with.
Unfortunately, between the bright lighting on the R-142A's and the window coatings, you won't have a great view of City Hall station, but it's the best you can get now.
So you really can? I wanted to ride through the loop late last year but I didn't want to get in trouble so I didn't.
It all depends on the T/O or conductor on the train. I first learned of the station in 1988. By 1991, the suspense was killing me. I had to see it. One day, a friend and I decided to stay on the train at BB. Like fools, we stayed in the first car (we were at the railfan window, after the treck down Lexington). The T/O got out of the cab and told us this was the last stop and we had to leave. We told him we wanted to see the station.
He was kind of impressed that we even knew or cared about it. He didn't know anything about the history (we knew more). But he said, "Yeah, there's a station there. It's very short." He then said that he was not supposed to let us stat on but said to stay on anywhere. He then said, "If anyone catches you here, I have no idea that you are in here. He said to look out the right side as we go through." We agreed, and the doors closed. He went back into his cab. We were on a redbird.
I was so excited the first time. Slowly the station that I have heard so much about was slowly appearing before my eyes in all it's glory. After we came back to BB, he said, "So did you see it!" We thanked him, and went on our way.
I had been actually on the station platform there twice since that ride around the loop that day, but nothing had beaten that first trip around the loop.
The rules have changed back and forth a few times on whether or not people are around the loop or not. I think currently technically you are allowed around, but it depends on if the crew lets you stay on. If one doesn't allow it, don't argue, just wait for the next train until they allow it. But like David said, the lights are so bright on the R142's, that I don't know how much you'll see. It was better back in the days of the redbirds.
Let us know how you do!
What a great story... Thanks Chris!
They try to chase you off because they figgur that you do not realize that it is the last stop and that perhaps you are lost. If you explain that you want to ride the loop to see the old City Hall station they will usually let you do so, although at one time it was not permitted, it is once again technically (or so I have heard) mail line track and therefore allowed.
Elias
if you get a nice enough T/O they may turn off the lights and open the cab door
David,
That is not a valid comparison.
Worth, 18th and 91st are intermediate stations trains have to pass them to get to the next revenue (active) station. City Hall is unique because Brooklyn Bridge is considered a terminal (for the 6) station. There is no revenue station after it except the uptown side of BB.
Reread the subthread. Someone claimed that the trackage couldn't possibly be open to the public since the station is closed. I pointed out that three other closed stations have revenue trackage passing by.
I'm not saying that the trackage has to be open to the public -- only that it can be. (And is, IINM.)
They kicked a friend and I off a train when we tried to go around City Hall loop about two weeks ago, saying that it was against the rules to ride around the loop.
-Robert King
So wait for the next train. Eventually you'll find someone who knows it isn't against the rules and doesn't mind.
I'm sorry to hear that. Better luck next time.
---Brian
Due to popular demand...
SubTalk DC Part II has been scheduled!!!
Who: Anyone interested in meeting other railfans while riding the DC MetroRail and buses
What: A railfan/busfan trip on board the DC MetroRail and regional bus carriers
Where: Starting at Union Station, Gate G (near the ladies' room)
When: Saturday, April 5, 2003 (exact meeting time to be determined)
Why: So that those who went on the first SubTalk DC trip can finish the system and to create another oppertunity for DC Area and other railfans to meet
Additional info: Due to the requests of others, it is planned that we go to the Shady Grove, Glenmont, and Addison Road terminals, the three terminals we did not visit in 2000. Also, provided the cherry blossoms are in bloom (they should be), we will walk around the Tidal Basin. CAF car rides may be included.
There will be at least one bus ride on the trip to transverse the two Red Line branches. Other bus rides will be added to the itinerary as necessary. This is a rail-oriented trip. I am under the impression that a bus-oriented trip may be planned for later this year.
The itinerary is subject to change between now and the date of the trip, including which terminals we visit and other attractions we see. I have not done the sceduling for this trip yet.
A web page for info about the trip will be posted in a few days.
If you have any questions or if you would like to inform me that you may be coming, please e-mail me at oren@orenstransitpage.com.
Addendum: Also e-mail me with any requests or wishes you may have. I will see what I can do! I believe lunch will be at the Union Station food court this time around although if there is a strong desire, we can have a brown bag lunch near the Jefferson Memorial. Keep in mind we don't want to spend too much time on the lines we rode two years ago.
How about this for an idea----Start a new record---Entire system in the least amount of time, we can do it as a group. Notify the press and give some recognition to Subtalk. We would have the opportunity to "set the bar".
In any case, count me in...
Mark
Sort of related - www.thetube.com was reporting yesterday a new attempt on the whole-system London Undergound record, currently standing at about 19.5 hours or so. That was by one person - a group attempt sounds fun. Maybe the UK subtalkers should try, as well as the DC ones?
On a Saturday? Besides, these things are hard to organize.
I do have contact with Lindsay Layton so I could try to get SubTalk a press mention (and have considered it). I see you are in favor of it.
Is it going to be Cherry Blossom time ?
Quite possibly, yes, but my instinct says it may be a bit early---The down-side is that there is no station that is really close to the tidal basin---I guess Arlington Cemetary might be it, then walk across the bridge.
Mark
My very tentative plan is to walk from Smithsonian to the Basin, walk about halfway round, then walk over the bridge to Arlington Cemetary, but I haven't done the itinerary and schedules yet.
Might there be a chance you join us?
How much snow did you get today? I went skiing today at Whitetail, I can't say the conditions were great considering it had snowed, but they claimed the conditions were the best they had in several years.
The 2003 National Cherry Blossom Festival runs from March 22nd until April 7th, so they should be out. The festival parade is the morning of April 5th. According to the Festival website (www.nationalcherryblossomfestival.org) in the FAQ section:
When Will They Bloom?
The National Cherry Blossom Festival is planned to coincide as nearly as possible with the blooming of the trees. The mean date of blooming is April 4, but the National Park Service horticulturalists cannot make an accurate prediction until 10 days prior. The peak lasts three days unless there's a big storm, though the blossoms generally remain on the trees for about 10 days.
Based on that and past experience, I would say we have a good chance of seeing them, but of course, we really won't know.
I am not making any guarentees about the quality of the blossoms or the weather that day, but I will guarentee that you will have a good time if you come. Others who were on the last trip can attest to that.
I've taken it for 2 days, today and yesterday and expresse service was off for what reason...?
I gandered out of one of the R62A cars (they all appear to have new 7 strip maps now) and what do I see? Construction involving the 3rd Rail? Are they upgrading it or are they simply replacing the rotten wood cover for the sleek aluminum covers? I hope I didn't get my hopes up for nothing...
"Are they upgrading it or are they simply replacing the rotten wood cover for the sleek aluminum covers?"
The new third rail protection boards are made of fiberglass and not aluminum. Aluminum conducts electricity.
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks for the correction, but are they upgrading it? I guess the aluminum part is the part that carries the electricity.
this car has a R16/27/30 End!!!!! took pictures today. will post them when I figure out how to
Was 3318 rebuilt by GE?
no, 3318 ras an R10, I made a typo. it is really 3381
You mean R32 3381. OO, I want to see that when you scan it here.
Yeah, I want to see these photos!
---Brian
More than likely, 3881 (GE rebuild).
Oh, so he IS most likely talking about the GE rebuilds.
Nothing special, I've seen them before. I guess he didn't relise that R32's once looked like stainless steel R30's.
Everything from the R15 to the R38 had the EXACT same front. He should of realized that R32's had that front until the GOH, when MK's units lost the front bonnet but the GE's kept the front with the lights blanked out, as most of us know.
The only thing that changed was the storm doors (I prefer the portholes).
This car is in service, are you kidding me? What kind of storm door?
R32
I thought the lowest R32 number was 3348???? Isn't 3318 an old R10 #?
He made a typo and yes the lowest numbered R32 is 3348. He's most likely referring to the GE R32's [probably 3881].
Ok... I see that there is some confusion
the # of the car is 3381, not 3318. I made a typo
3380 and 3381 are both R32s rebuilt by MK
The whole B end of 3381 and parts of the B end in 3380 are silver painted carbon steel which is uncorrigated
The interiors of both cars are normal.
This thing I have to see.
does anybody know what happened to this car, and what car was the end taken from
Whatever happened to it, it must have happened when the car was relatively new. I came to NYCT in 11/79 and the car was like that then as I recall.
I swore I've seen 3381 (the number seems familiar) in the past, but I never payed any attention to it. If I see it again, I'll make sure to take a look at its ends.
That was found under the crud covering the R/1 -R/9 cars once the car washes started cleaning them up?
avid
CITY OF NEW YORK in gold capital letters.
Many Thanks. Did Independant System appear anywhere on the Cars?
avid
No. Entrance signs did have "Independent Subway System". Many also said, "8th Ave."
It was known as ''the 8th Avenue Subway'',even where it was miles away,in another boro,under a diferent street.......
Even the entrance signs on the Queens line had, "Queensboro-8th Av." I noticed that when I entered the Van Wyck Blvd. station back in March of 1978.
On the R1-R9, the gold lettering said "City of New York".
CITY OF NEW YORK
I remember seeing those cars as a small boy traveling to Manhattan on the F in the early and mid 1970's.
PROFF:
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i1000/img_1760.jpg
Wonder if that was just before those two IND gems were moved to the Transit Museum. They just happen to be coupled together there, too.
I think the later Arnine (maybe R7 and R9) came with the lettering. BTW, City of New York were also found inside the cars too.
I think the later Arnine (maybe R7 and R9) came without the lettering. BTW, City of New York were also found inside the cars too.
would an R/9 look with all longatudenal seating, both sides lined with Rattan seating.
avid
I like Chicago's Blue and Red lines when they come to Grand and the overhead announcer says, "This is Grand."
It's the simple things, for my simple mind, that amuse me.
One of my prized possessions is a classic white-on-blue enamel-on-steel "Grand" sign from Chicago's "L" system, acquired at a house sale some years ago. The seller exclaimed, "Isn't it just GRAND?" It most likely came from the Grand & Franklin station, which no longer exists; though there also was a Grand station on the Met's Logan Square "L", also part of history.
You would wind up with a larger IRT LO-V.
Now here's something that I've been wanting to ask, but never remembered to.
When contracts for rail cars (i.e, R142-142A, R68-68A, all WMATA metrorail cars, etc.) are awarded, does the TA tell the manufacturer EXACTLY how to build the cars? I mean, the Westinghouse R68 looks nearly exactly like the Kawasaki R68. To a non rail fan, without looking at the builder's plate, they would think the same company built the car. Any answers?
Yes. The contract spells out the shape of the body in detail as well as the material. A single contract can go out to two builders but both have to design the car as shown in the contract. If you can get it, you can buy a set of contract drawing from NYCT, or if you are a member of the ERA, you can request an appointment to review the contract drawings in their GCT library.
Thanks to the help of Larry,RedbirdR33, I now have almost all of the first 36 years of NY ERA Bulletins, either original or photocopy.
I am now missing only four issues...
1963 Vol 6 #5
1980 Vol 23 #2
1982 Vol 25 #5 & #9
Is there anyone here who can help me get photocopies of these issues?
Currently doing road simulations on the 5 to Flatbush. Only a few more sets to go?
-Stef
Just on the news - M/N/Q/R/W service is suspended from 36 St to Pacific St due to a water main break and street collapse at 4 Ave & 19 St.
N's and W's are terminating at Paciffic Street, W's are through the tunnel making all local stops. Didn't hear about the R though.
They did annouce free transfers to 3rd and 5th Avenue Buses at Paciffic Street.
Service is effected but I was traveling early so it hasn't gone down the tubes yet.
And add to the problems: PATH is out from Hoboken to 33rd due to "Power Problems" (SOURCE: E-mail from NJT).
To those who say PATH is not needed: guess what! it is needed and light rail will not handle the load.
update: PATH serice has resumed.
I think anyone who thinks PATH is not needed hasn't been on PATH.
I agree with you, they don't know how important it is to people heading btw Manhattan & New Jersey.
To the person who thinks PATH is not necessary:
Evidently you have never rode the PATH train OR drove in from NJ to the city. Despite the loss of the WTC branch and two stations, PATH is a critical link for thousands of riders who live, work and tour Newark, Jersey City, Hoboken and points in between. Newark station alone, has at least TWENTY feeder bus routes to various New Jersey points such as the Oranges, Elizabeth, and all over Newark (including the city subway.). To cuf off Path completely is like cutting off the Lex Ave line out completely, DUMB!!
Imagine tens of thousands of commuters clogging #126 Hoboken and other buses just to get into the city. Or those 200,000 daily customers will jam up the Holland and Lincoln tunnels.
As of 1 PM, service on the 4th ave line is back to normal (according to the subway status information line when call travel information 330-1234.) However there is a sick customer being attended to on the SB #4 line at Burnside Ave station. All SB #4 trains express from Burnside to 149th St-GC during this temporary measure.
I wonder if its REALLY back to normal or if all trains are skipping stops from 36-Pacific until it is safe to return back to normal. Just as something clears up, another problem comes up, only in the MTA...
By the time of Kool-D's post, service was indeed running normal, barring the odd residual from everyone being so out of place.
R and N trains are probably being turned either at Canal or Whitehall Sts. M trains like turned at Chambers St.
They had some M train's terminating at Chambers St,the rest were ending at Broad St. I saw the only M train that ended at Chamber's,go back to Metro Av at 11:30.
They had some M train's terminating at Chambers St,the rest were ending at Broad St. I saw the only M train that ended at Chamber's,go back to Metro Av at 11:30.
They had some M train's terminating at Chambers St,the rest were ending at Broad St. I saw the only M train that ended at Chamber's,go back to Metro Av at 11:30.
They had some M train's terminating at Chambers St,the rest were ending at Broad St. I saw the only M train that ended at Chamber's,go back to Metro Av at 11:30.
Currrently as of 1045 am there are no trains between 36 and Pacific.W are in 2 sections 36 to C I and Whitehall or Pacific to Astoria.R is from 59 st to Bay Ridge.Service is said to resume around Noon time.
I bet you n' SubBus had somethin' to do with da watermain break...
Just heard on WNBC tv news that the MTA, based on new cost-saving measures, has more money on hand than they thought, though it won't be
enough to stave off fare increases.
Wow, what do you insiders make of all of this MTA budget thing? It reminds me of some of the posts read here when a strike was looming!
There was a Times article this morning by Randy Kennedy which emphasized that interest payments on MTA borrowing will be an increasing burden in the coming years. There are projections that the MTA debt may reach $25 billion in the coming years.
Paying the Butcher's Bill
The article implies that operating revenue goes to pay debt for capital projects. Is this the case?
I just read the article again. The TBTA surpluses have been funding mass transit operations, but even those surpluses will not cover debt service, in which case the fare box will have to cover the debt service, unless the MTA gets a letter in the mail from a bank that is willing to charge a lower interest for 6 months if the MTA transfer all their debt to that bank.
Actually that's not a bad idea. With interest rates where they
are, the MTA might be able to reduce debt service by refinancing.
Gary G. Caplan, the authority's budget director, said yesterday that the $2.8 billion estimate was not inaccurate. It simply did not take into account a series of cost-cutting measures and a corporate restructuring plan that officials hope will result in significant savings over the next two years.
He added, however, that the lower estimates were made public last month as part of a budget document. "It shows you the whole megillah," he said of that document.
Which "megillah" is he referring to?
I suspect he meant "michigas" instead of megillah.
Meshugah!!!
I think michigas is a noun meaning craziness, while meschugah is someone who is crazy (we needn't go far to find a few meschugahs at this messageboard)
Let's be clear here. There is no new money at the MTA.
What there is is a high and rising share of fare revenues, toll revenues, etc. going to pay for mass borrowing by the Pataki Administration and the state legislature. They've been running deficits for years, but like Enron with its off balance sheet entities, they shifted them to the MTA. And now the money is gone.
The business community, the TWU, and the Straphangers all objected to this. So did I, in an outraged letter to the editor and papers published on the internet. But because people like Ron formerly (fortunately for him) of Bayside are so convinced of the goodwill of our elected officials, or don't care, or aren't interested, they just thumbed their nose and did in anyway.
All Republicans have different views, except on one thing...loading the debt onto the next generation. They must have a secret plan to all move to Idaho, and then secede.
"All Republicans have different views, except on one thing...loading the debt onto the next generation. They must have a secret plan to all move to Idaho, and then secede". Larry, that is the most concise explanation of Republican economics I've ever read,
They're not even WAITING any longer. Word out of the State University today is MASS firings of teachers AND a forty-one percent tuition hike effective on the student's return. Pretty neat stuff. But hey, I'm sure we'll all feel better about that tax cut. Wowsers. :\
Sounds like the name of a gorilla in a series of Hanna-Barbera cartoons.
Walter Matthau (as Lt. Garber) refered to "michigas" when giving the tour to the Japenese transit people in Pelham 123.
Peace,
ANDEE
Michigas is a registered trademark of the Standard Oil Company of Michigan. :-)
I'm not surprised. The fare increase is becoming more likely but I knew they were lying about the money they had.
A few of you might be aware of this. A famous New York piano manufacturer is celebrating their 150th anniversary this year on March 5th. They are perhaps the best known piano manufacturer in the world and there is even a street and a subway station named after them. One of the subway tunnels is also named after this piano manufacturer. I know who it is. Can any of you guess the name of this piano manufacturer?
#3 West End Jeff
Steinway.
Peace,
ANDEE
Steinway, of course.
Steinway, of course!
Uh, I do hate the Steinway tunnels. They are probably the dirtiest tunnels used in the system.
I was always very fond of these sick musical jokes:
What do you get when you drop a piano down a mine shaft?
Ab minor!
What about a military review?
Ab Major!!
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.
Sorry, "ventilation shaft" just doesn't have the same ring to it.
I enjoyed your kidding around Steve B-8AVEXP. To those who guessed Steinway as the piano manufacturer who is celebrating their 150th anniversary on March 5th 2003, you guessed RIGHT!
#3 West End Jeff
Monday January 20th we'll do HBLR, north branch.
Meet at PATH 33rd Street station at 12:15 ... at the end of track, just before you go down to the platforms.
We'll take PATH to Pavonia-Newport & transfer to HBLR so we can take the nice ride into Hoboken. I was last at the HBLR station at Newport when it was the end of the line.
After Hoboken we'll take a vote on either the rest of HBLR or taking PATH again to Newark City Subway. I would like to see the extension there but wouldn't mind doing the rest of HBLR either.
This tour guide won't be doing too much "guiding", i.e. yada yada although I did buy the HBLR book that just came out AND have a disply set of HBLR cars on my desk thanks to a friend who picked it up at the NJT store going out of business sale.
Should be a fun time with your friends, join us & enjoy the ride !
Found this link posted on teh Strappies board
http://www.lowcountrynow.com/stories/011603/LOCeditorial.shtml
Editorial: One city's trash is another state's reef
Carolina Morning News
What in the world is South Carolina's Department of Natural Resources doing accepting New York City's trash? Laughing all the way to the bank, that's what.
When we heard they were dumping old subway cars from the Big Apple about 20 miles offshore from Hilton Head Island, we admit our first thought was that those fast-talking city fellas had pulled a fast one on South Carolina's DNR.
It's true that the New York City Transit Authority made out like bandits. The authority's other alternative was to turn those subway cars into scrap, which is a very costly proposition. So they were only too happy to load up those barges and head south.
Well, non-fishermen might have a hard time believing this, but South Carolina made out even better than the NYC folks.
Those cars are perfectly suited to serve as artificial reefs, and those reefs are badly needed. Why? Because, in as few words as possible, the bottom of the ocean off most of the state's coast is downright boring. It's flat and featureless and fish have no reason to hang out there.
Throw an old military vehicle into the water, or part of a demolished bridge, or a few dozen subway cars -- all are now reefs off of Beaufort County's shores -- and in a matter of weeks the fish start hanging around and having babies.
Those fish, in turn, attract anglers, and that translates into money for the state. Big money. DNR officials said that artificial reefs have impacted the recreation fishing industry to the tune of $20 million a year.
As of January 1996, the state's Office of Fisheries Management was authorized to continue developing 38 artificial reef construction sites along the S.C. coast, including the local ones.
Our only question is, When can Beaufort County get some more of that "trash" from New York City?
Great article, thanks!
Don't you love it when "we can all just get along?"
I red it, but S. Carolina is always with their calling our precious 'birds trash. How dare they?
I guess no one down there was saying hello Redbirds, hello Redbirds.:(
The story from the Boston Globe.
A number of people that I know who work for Transit have told me that they have not recieved their ballots YET. They are due on the 21st, right? Now when they call local 100 they are told they have to come in and pick them up, even though when calling one week ago they were assured that they would be mailed. They're also being told how to vote. Hmmmm....
Anyone else experiencing this runaround?
Peace,
ANDEE
I didn't get my ballot yet as well but SR got it two weeks ago and we have the same mailing address.
I just got mine today.
Robert
Is it really so surprising that much of the general public thinks unions are corrupt anachronisms and that union membership nationwide has fallen so far?
Hanky-panky during a union vote? Never happen!!!!!
Hanky-panky during a union vote? Never happen!!!!!
Where do yo want me to spot this box car filled with salt?
There's an interesting article in the December, 2002 issue of the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society A new constellation of Earth-orbiting satellites has been given the nickname, "A-Train," since the two end satellites are the Aqua and the Aura.
The abstract of the article follows. If you would like to read the entire article, it's available on-line in PDF format.
Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society: Vol. 83, No. 12, pp. 1771–1790.
THE CLOUDSAT MISSION AND THE A-TRAIN
A New Dimension of Space-Based Observations of Clouds and Precipitation
Graeme L. Stephens (lead author)
Department of Atmospheric Science, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, Colorado
CloudSat is a satellite experiment designed to measure the vertical structure of clouds from space. The expected launch of CloudSat is planned for 2004, and once launched, CloudSat will orbit in formation as part of a constellation of satellites (the A-Train) that includes NASA's Aqua and Aura satellites, a NASA–CNES lidar satellite (CALIPSO), and a CNES satellite carrying a polarimeter (PARASOL). A unique feature that CloudSat brings to this constellation is the ability to fly a precise orbit enabling the fields of view of the CloudSat radar to be overlapped with the CALIPSO lidar footprint and the other measurements of the constellation. The precision and near simultaneity of this overlap creates a unique multisatellite observing system for studying the atmospheric processes essential to the hydrological cycle.
The vertical profiles of cloud properties provided by CloudSat on the global scale fill a critical gap in the investigation of feedback mechanisms linking clouds to climate. Measuring these profiles requires a combination of active and passive instruments, and this will be achieved by combining the radar data of CloudSat with data from other active and passive sensors of the constellation. This paper describes the underpinning science and general overview of the mission, provides some idea of the expected products and anticipated application of these products, and the potential capability of the A-Train for cloud observations. Notably, the CloudSat mission is expected to stimulate new areas of research on clouds. The mission also provides an important opportunity to demonstrate active sensor technology for future scientific and tactical applications. The CloudSat mission is a partnership between NASA's JPL, the Canadian Space Agency, Colorado State University, the U.S. Air Force, and the U.S. Department of Energy.
R-10 satellites or R-44s? (no spacefan window on the latter, I would guess...)
Great questions! I wonder what the automated announcements are?
The next stop is: LAGRANGE POINT. Transfer here to the EXPLORER SATELLITE and the PIONEER (rush hours only). SHUTTLE service is available to Kennedy Space Center. Step in please, and watch the closing hatch!
This could give new meaning to, "MIND THE GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP!"
Wow! I can go from Far Rock to Farpoint! Do I still have to pay twice if I'm going out of our Solar system? (Remember riding to the Rock used to cost more than the rest of the system...)
Why, R-10s, of course.:)
we have some "Juvenles" griping about handles.
It is a personal choice. Theer are quite a few posters here using handles (and I will not list them). If a person chooses to use a handle it is the same as a person wishing to be called Ed rather than Edward or Andee rather than Andrew.
Many of us know you is the "name behind the handle" and respect the person's decision to us a handle.
The subject is closed.
To the "juveniles" I have three suggestions:
1- Respect Authority
2- Respect a poster's choice of name or handle
3- Grow up
we have some "Juvenles" griping about handles.
It is a personal choice. Theer are quite a few posters here using handles (and I will not list them). If a person chooses to use a handle it is the same as a person wishing to be called Ed rather than Edward or Andee rather than Andrew.
Many of us know you is the "name behind the handle" and respect the person's decision to us a handle.
The subject is closed.
To the "juveniles" I have three suggestions:
1- Respect Authority
2- Respect a poster's choice of name or handle
3- Grow up
You're being rather harsh on the so-called "juveniles." And no, I'm not one myself.
At the risk of being a little blunt, let me note that no one seems to mind the use of handles per se. Subtalkers are allowed that option, and that's fine. What is getting a little tiresome, for lack of a better term, is the Subwaybuff/Peggy alter ego stuff. Any regular Subtalker knows the true score, and sees right through the third-party references to "Peggy." I guess my point is that using a handle is fine, using one's real name is fine, but attempting to use both is silly. That's all.
If someone doesn't want to say I, but would rather say "a friend", "somebody I know", or simply "peggy", I don't see the problem, even if the person themself is peggy. There could be legal reasons for doing such, or maybe they just don't feel like letting random strangers know her real name. Note: random stranger in this case is somebody who is new to subtalk, as if you read long enough you'll figure out that they're the same person.
moral of my point: who cares?
Thank You, Peter. You said it better than I ever could have.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd never use my full real name on an internet discussion board. Only Dave knows my full last name.
I'd never use my full real name on an internet discussion board. Only Dave knows my full last name.
It's just a matter of preference. I've always used my full name here, on misc.fitness.weights, and on airliners.net, and I've never gotten any e-mail harassment or anything like that. But some people feel differently, I guess.
Subtalkers who have met me in person know my last name. I used just my initial at first because I was posting from work, and it stuck.
I don't use my surname on here, but anyone who's ever e-mailed me will know it.
"I don't use my surname on here, but anyone who's ever e-mailed me will know it."
Me too. I happen to have a very distinctive first name so I use that.
Ameng. I happen to have a very distinctively shaped
subway station, so I go by that.
What??
Peggy and Subwaybuff are the same person?
No chit?
>>> ...but attempting to use both is silly.<<<
No, atempting to BE both is silly.
Peace,
ANDEE
Your handle is "subway-buff@mindspring.com" and I totally respect your choice to use an email address for your handle versus using a real name such as "Peter Rosa" or a descriptive phrase such as "Railfan Window."
Respect authority? Me? buahwahahaha!!! I HATE AUTHORITY! I make authoritive people rot in the deepest pit's of hell!
Why doesn't your childish attitude suprise me?
Really Train Dude, you're better than that.
"Really Train Dude, you're better than that. "
Yes, you are correct - I am better than that. But my response was dead on. Hating persons in a position of authority for the sake of disliking authority IS a childish trait.
*Sigh* I apologize for not realizing that. I am a bit partial to V Train, when's she not naughty to me, at least.
Just because a person has achieved a position of authority does not mean he or she is worthy of hatred- You are stereotyping.
You DO NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY to send people to hell- You are playing G-d.
A healthy respect for authority balanced with a healthy degree of skepticism is the glue which holds our society together.- You are acting uncivilized.
Your attitude reveals childishness.- You are immature.
With both Chicago and New York considering (and probably implementing) fare increases in the next year or two, I've been wondering about fare increases.
Fares in Chicago have been $1.50 for a number of years (at least eight, and I think about ten years), and I know they've been $1.50 in New York for a while, too.
Obviously a big fare increase is undesireable, but at times in unavoidable. And even with increased efficiency and productivity increases, inflation always eventually takes its due.
So the question I have is this:
In this day of cards and reduced reliance on cash, would it make more sense to have annual minor fare increases or same fare for many years and then a big jump in price that shocks the system?
Are there other systems' methods out there to look at for examples?
Would a nickle a year increase be better than a 50-cent increase once a decade? I think it would, with present-value of money being good, IF transit agencies were allowed to accumulate reasonable (smallish) surpluses to be used to even out operating costs across years and they showed the restraint to not spend it frivilously. That may be wishful thinking. Wouldn't the public get used to small annual increases more easily than big increases once a decade, making any necessary fare increases easier without big impacts on ridership brought on by sudden fare hikes?
Opinions? Comments? Examples of systems with small annual increases?
In a prior thread someone said that the City Hall loop trackage is main line trackage and passengers can technically stay on trains and view the City Hall station.
When I read this, I thought "here we go again." This question has been discussed almost as much as the 76th Street station existence issue.
This morning, I was on a downtown (4) R-62 train from GC to Fulton Street. When the doors opened at Brooklyn Bridge, an R-142 (6) had its doors open on the local track. I distinctly heard the recorded announcement on the (6) say "this is the last stop. All passengers must exit here. Thank you for riding MTA New York City Transit."
Now the obvious question: If the loop trackage is main line, why was this announcement programmed into the train? And why is it in use? The short answer is: Its NOT main line trackage.
And about railfanners wanting to see City Hall being relatively safe as long as they're not in the 1st or 6th cars of the (6) train about to use the loop: That's hogwash as well. Many's the time I wanted to hop aboard the last car of a (6) at BB, only to see a NYCT employee walk past the entire length of the train to see if anyone was inside before the train entered the loop. I've also seen the conductor also take this walk inside the train, apparently to weed out anyone hiding in the car. And apparently they watch the platform-mounted closed circuit TV cameras too: not long ago, a friend of mine waited for the "train sweep" to be completed and hopped on board the last car just before the doors started to close. The doors immediately snapped back open with the conductor yelling "Last stop! Last stop! No passengers! No passengers!" There was no way the conductor could have seen my friend, because of the curve of the track, so the conductor must have been watching the camera.
Bottom line: The only way you can see City Hall is if you are allowed to stay on. I have seen no evidence of any kind that the loop is main line trackage.
" I distinctly heard the recorded announcement on the (6) say "this is the last stop. All passengers must exit here. Thank you for riding MTA New York City Transit."
That is a "stock" announcement that is played at any last stop. After all Brooklyn Bridge is the last stop on the 6.
That may be so, but if the trackage is main line and passengers may ride on it, why use an announcement that tells people to get off?
Mitch,
You missed what I said. It is automatically programmed that way for all last stops. Technically it is the last stop. That is why the announcement.
Since you would ignore it anyway, why are you so concerned.
If the passengers don't have to get off, why doesn't the T/O override the automated announcement ("DING!") and announce that BB is the last stop but passengers may remain on the train as it goes around the loop?
I wouldn't, and don't, ignore the automated warning.
Because the majority of the passengers would want to get off or may not realize that the train does not go any further south.
Mitch, you shouldn't equate our railfan desires with that of "civilians".
Because the T/O (or C/R) has better things to do than make silly corrections to perfectly normal announcements.
Should the C/R do the same at a terminal station where the train simply reverses direction? Unless the train is being removed from service, passengers are certainly welcome to stay on the train and retrace their steps -- yet they are asked to "please leave the train" (listen again -- there's no "must" in the announcement). No C/R would override that announcement.
There's no reason for anyone who uses the subway solely for transportation (i.e., almost everyone who rides the subway) to stay on the 6 train past Brooklyn Bridge. A quick glance at the map might lead many to believe that the 6 continues to Fulton Street and beyond. If passengers aren't told to leave the train, some won't -- and may not realize until much later that they're heading away from Fulton Street.
If the passengers don't have to get off, why doesn't the T/O override the automated announcement ("DING!") and announce that BB is the last stop but passengers may remain on the train as it goes around the loop?
Why would anyone who rides the subway (99% of passengers) want to ride downtown on the Lexington, go through BB and around the loop, and then back through BB and back uptown?
It makes perfect sense to tell everyone to get off. If you ride most lines to the end the announcement will sound that this is the last stop and to get off the train, but at most terminals, if you want to stay on the train and go back the other way, you can, you don't HAVE to get off just because they said to (at stub end trminals).
There may be one exception to me saying that no one would want to ride around the loop (other than railfans or history-buffs). Every so often if I am at let's say 6th Ave on the L, and headed to Brooklyn, and it is very busy, I may ride the wrong way to 8th ave, and be gauranteed a seat when the train reverses direction and heads back to Brooklyn. I'm sure people do that at other near the end of the line stations, so I guess it's not inconceviable that people may want to ride the wrong way at BB to go through the loop and back to BB. But then again, most people other than railfans would not even know that that train is going to loop around, also again 99% of the people are not going to think that's an option. It's clearer for people to do that when it is a stub end terminal, and they can easily see that the train will be going away fron the stub when it leaves. That may not be clear for most people at BB.
GP38 Chris said:
"I may ride the wrong way to 8th ave, and be gauranteed a seat when the train reverses direction and heads back to Brooklyn."
I've seen people on the 7 take the the Times Square bound train to Times Square to be guaranteed a seat on the next train to Main St. I've seen similar occurrences at Court Sq for the G and Metropolitan Av for the M. Except, once the train doors open, the people run across the platform to the next train leaving (assuming the next train doesn't leave beforehand).
I've also done that at Metropolitan on the M. Like you said, most people will run across the platform if there is another train at the terminal when the train they are "wrong-riding" arrives. That's the beauty of stub-island-platform stations. Of course riding the wrong way to head back the other way usually involves missing the next train. But many times it's worth it if it means having a seat for a long crowded ride.
Because there is absolutely no reason for anyone to stay on, unless they specifically want to take a joyride through the loop (such as us). Everyone else would be doing themselves a disservice by riding through the loop because either
1) it will take them longer to exit the station (have to wait for the train to come around and open up)
2) if they are continuing downtown, they are now at the wrong platform
So the MTA is doing everyone a service by forcing you off at BB, as they should. BUT, if the loop track is "mainline" and is "legal" to be ridden on, then people should be allowed to ride through it if they tell the C/R so when told to get off. Basically, if your reason for staying on is to see the loop, then you should be allowed to stay on. The C/R's would have to be trained to not view this as something weird and illegal.
---Brian
I am the expert when it comes to riding around the loop. Ride in the last car, look someone disoriented. MTA employees never search the cars, I have no clue what you are talking about, I rode the loop about 2 weeks ago with no problem, and I might do it again sometime soon.
I rode through on wednesday!. You shouldn't have any problems during the PM Rush, since the C/R cannot go through the train given the 6's short headways. City Hall actually looks good, besides the extreme amounst of dirt and dust.
There was a notice to employees allowing passengers to remain on the trains that would go through the Brooklyn Bridge and Bowling Green loops. NOT to encourage them but to allow them since dwell time in the loops is small. If it has been changed in the past months I do not know. I'll try to find out.
Fred, which part of southern california do you live in? The reason I asked is that during the holidays, I saw a man walking around Encino in a black N-train tee shirt. Did that happen to be you, or is there another Sea Beach fan in the Los Angeles Metropolitan area?
Since Fred apparently hasn't seen this yet, I'll answer for him... he's from Arcadia. Might have been him... as I recall he has mentioned a black N shirt here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not to mention a "4 Sea Beach Fred" baseball cap.
Browsing the Micro-Trains website while eating a late lunch and discovered something very interesting:
This represents a support boxcar for the Urban Rapid Rail Program, which gave us the SOAC subway cars. For more information, follow this link.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Interesting....nice model, although the one that accompanied the set while in NYC was an uncovered gondola. I think I even have a shot of it sitting in Coney Is. Yards.
Would be nice if they had the SOAC trainset as well.
Paul
I've got a photo showing two gondolas, one in between a locomovtive and the SOACs, and one trailing (can't see if there's anything behind it in the picture). I wonder if they were just used for coupler conversion and the car represented by that model is the real "support car"....
Wouldn't it be nifto-spiffo if they were to come up with a set of the SOAC subway cars themselves? Let's HOUND them! :)
There is a rollsign on e-bay with a shipping charge in the 3 figure range. I've e-mailed this guy before about his high shipping charges but he says that's what he is charged by the shipper. Doesn't seem right to me but...
Caveat emptor
www.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2154507146&category=4152?
'Let the buyer beware', indeed.
You can ship this item from White Plains, NY to any destination in the Northeast via UPS for as little as $20 ($60 worth of insurance included), and to the West Coast for approximately $52.
The seller's eBay listing reads: "In order to propoerly package and ship this item ship it MUST go FedEx due to its size."
This is incorrect - UPS will accept a package of this size.
JD
Knowing UPS though, when you get the package, it will be substantially smaller (and probably in a different shape, too). If you want it getting there safe, UPS is generally not the best idea.
When I was doing the Checking/receiving inventory at my work place, I remembered seeing the UPS delivered the ad board about the size of a canal street Q and W signage. Not single scrated marks left behind the ad board which made my boss happy as a puppy and gave me a big fat bonus on mah paycheck.
You can ship it via FedEx Ground to Chicago for about $25 including $500 in insurance. And FedEx 2-day is only $100.
It sounds like he has access to a highly discounted FedEx account (I know the airlines get 50% discount from FedEx) and is selling the shipping at retail and pocketing the difference.
The item is of an odd size and probably weighs quite a bit.
It may very well be that the shipping company does charge that amount.
I shipped a cherry wood sign box and rollsign that I made for a lady that held a 5 foot long R142 rollsign. The package was 6 feet by 1+ foot by 9 inches and weighed over 40 pounds. UPS charged about 1/4 what these people want.
I happen to own the IND version of this sign and must agree that the shipping charges are not out of line. These bastards are HEAVY, very heavy.
Peace,
ANDEE
FedEx 3-day New York to California comes out to a bit under $150, assuming the package is 80 pounds, dimnension about 2 x 3 x 4 feet, and $1000 insurance.
I purchased a rather heavy item from e-Bay two years ago. It was a complete seat from an old BMT el car - I drove to New Jersey to pick it up from the seller - saved me $$$$$ in shipping I am sure!! Now if only I could find someone to re-upholster the rattan or for that matter replacement rattan ;-)
The Golden Snowball
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I received this e-mail this week:
The Diary of a Snow Shoveler
December 8, 6pm—It started to snow. The first snow of the season and the wife and I took our cocktails and sat for hours by the window watching the huge soft flakes drift down from heaven. It looked like a Grandma Moses print. So romantic we felt like newlyweds again. I love snow!!
December 9—We woke to a beautiful blanket of crystal white snow covering every inch of the landscape. What a fantastic sight! Can there be a more lovely place in the Whole World? Moving here was the best idea I’ve ever had. Shoveled for the first time in years and felt like a boy again. I did both our driveway and the sidewalks. This afternoon the snowplow came along and covered up the sidewalks and closed in the driveway, so I got to shovel again. What a perfect life.
December 12—The sun has melted all our lovely snow. Such a disappointment. My neighbor tells me not to worry, we’ll definitely have a white Christmas. No snow on Christmas would be awful! Bob says we’ll have so much snow by the end of winter, that I’ll never want to see snow again. I don’t think that's possible. Bob is such a nice man, I'm glad he’s our neighbor.
December 14—Snow lovely snow. 8" last night. The temperature dropped to -20. The cold makes everything sparkle so. The wind took my breath away, but I warmed up by shoveling the driveway and sidewalks. This is the life! The snowplow came back this afternoon and buried everything again. I didn’t realize I would have to do quite this much shoveling, but I’ll certainly get back in shape this way.
December 15—20 inches forecast. Sold my van and bought a 4X4 Blazer. Bought snow tires for the wife’s car and 2 extra shovels. Stocked the freezer. The wife wants a wood stove in case the electricity goes out. I think that’s silly. We aren’t in Alaska, after all.
December 16—Ice storm this morning. Fell on my butt on the ice in the driveway putting down salt. Hurt like hell. The wife laughed for an hour, which I think very cruel.
December 18—Still way below freezing. Roads are too icy to go anywhere. Electricity was off for 5 hours. I had to pile the blankets on to stay warm. Nothing to do but stare at the wife and try not to irritate her. Guess I should’ve bought a wood stove, but won’t admit it to her. God I hate it when she’s right. I can’t believe I’m freezing to death in my own living room.
December 20—Electricity’s back on, but had another 14" of the damn stuff last night. More shoveling. Took all day. Damn snowplow came by twice. Tried to find a neighbor kid to shovel, but they said they’re too busy playing hockey. I think they’re lying. Called the only hardware store around to see about buying a snow blower and they’re out. Might have another shipment in March. I think they’re lying. Bob says I have to shovel or the city will have it done and bill me. I think he’s lying.
December 22—Bob was right about a white Christmas because 13 more inches of the white crap fell today, and it’s so cold it probably won’t melt till August. Took me 45 minutes to get all dressed up to go out to shovel and then I had to poop. By the time I got undressed, pooped and dressed again, I was too tired to shovel. Tried to hire Bob who has a plow on his truck for the rest of the winter; but he says he’s too busy. I think the jerk is lying.
December 23—Only 2" of snow today. And it warmed up to 0. The wife wanted me to decorate the front of the house this morning. What is she nuts!! Why didn’t she tell me to do that a month ago? She says she did but I think she’s lying.
December 24—6". Snow packed so hard by snowplow, I broke the shovel. Thought I was having a heart attack. If I ever catch the son of a bitch who drives that snowplow I’ll drag him through the snow by his balls and beat him to death with my broken shovel! And then he comes down the street at a 100 miles an hour and throws snow all over where I’ve just been! Tonight the wife wanted me to sing Christmas carols with her and open our presents, but I was too busy watching for the damn snowplow.
December 25—Merry-bleeping Christmas! 20 more inches of the damn slop tonight. Snowed in. The idea of shoveling makes my blood boil. I hate the snow! Then the snowplow driver cam by asking for a donation and I hit him over the head with my shovel. The wife says I have a bad attitude. I think she’s a fricking idiot. If I have to watch “It’s a Wonderful Life” one more time I’m going to stuff her into the microwave.
December 26—Still snowed in. Why the hell did I ever move here? It was all HER idea. She’s really getting on my nerves.
December 27—Temperature dropped to -30 and the pipes froze, plumber came after 14 hours of waiting for him, he only charged me $1400 to replace all my pipes.
December 28—Warmed up to above -20. Still snowed in. THE BITCH is driving me crazy.
December 29—10 more inches. Bob says I have to shovel the roof or it could cave in. That’s the silliest thing I ever heard. How dumb does he think I am?
December 30—Roof caved in. I beat up the snow plow driver he is now suing me for a million dollars not only for the beating I gave him but also for trying to shove the broken snow shovel up his ass. The wife went home to her mother. 9" predicted.
December 31—I set fire to what’s left of the house. No more shoveling.
January 8—Feel so good. I just love those little white pills they keep giving me. Why am I tied to the bed?
ROTFLMAO
This had most of update laughing for 2 days and a very embarrassed female news anchor who will, in the future, likely think before she speaks.
What happens when you predict snow but don't get any....
True story... a female news anchor who, the day after it was supposed to have snowed and didn't, turned to the weatherman and asked "So Bob, where's that 8 inches you promised me last night?"
Not only did HE have to leave the set, but half the crew did too they were laughing so hard!
She's working in Phoenix now at a Fox affiliate.
Hey "Mouse", all that article talked about was Syracuse and the picture was from my zip code I AM SNOW KING.
And for those confused by all this talk of cold weather (with or without transit) ...
How cold is it ??????????
At 65 degrees, Hawaiians declare a two-blanket night.
At 60 degrees, Californians put on sweaters (if they can find one).
At 50 degrees, Miami residents turn on the heat.
At 45 degrees, Vermont residents go to outdoor concerts.
At 40 degrees, you can see your breath; Californians shiver uncontrollably;
Minnesotans go swimming.
At 35 degrees, Italian cars don't start.
At 32 degrees, water freezes; Minnesotans eat ice cream; Canadians go
swimming.
At 20 degrees, politicians begin to talk about the homeless; New York City
water freezes.
At 15 degrees, French cars don't start.
At 5 degrees, American cars don't start.
At 0 degrees, Alaskans put on T-shirts.
At -10 degrees, German cars don't start; eyes freeze shut when you blink.
At -15 degrees, you can cut your breath and use it to build an igloo;
Arkansans stick their tongues on metal objects; Miami residents cease to
exist.
At -20 degrees, cat insists on sleeping in pajamas with you; politicians
actually do something about the homeless; Minnesotans shovel snow off
roof; Japanese cars don't start.
At -25 degrees, too cold to think; you need jumper cables to get the driver
going.
At -30 degrees, you plan a two week hot bath; Swedish cars don't start.
At -40 degrees, Californians disappear; Minnesotans button top button;
Canadians put on sweaters; your car helps you plan your trip South.
At -50 degrees, Congressional hot air freezes; Alaskans close the bathroom
window.
At -80 degrees, Hell freezes over; polar bears move South; Viking Fans
order hot cocoa at the game.
At -90 degrees, lawyers put their hands in their own pockets.
At -80 degrees, Hell freezes over
So does that mean the Second Avenue subway gets built?
If someone can get a certified measurement from NOAA, Senator Joe will go grab the tools out of the 76th Street station and dig it PERSONALLY. :)
LMAO!!
I knew there was a reason when I came to the United States that I didn’t go to live in a plains state!
I once went to Minneapolis in January. Gawd, I have never, ever been so cold!
Yeah, as far as cities go, Syracuse now has the purple banana (mostly lake effect squalls this past week and change) but up until just recently, we did have the number. That 73.9 by the way is the "official number" at the Albany airport, down in the valley. Up here, we have 92 inches total, but it's not "official" ... far and beyond the normal any way you slice it, normally Albany isn't in the running. Two twenty-plus inch snowfalls on Christmas and then again on New Years, plus 1-2 more inches each and every day is unusual, even for here.
6 degrees right now (9 in Albany) and dropping fast ... have to smoke outside owing to house rules. Brrrrrr. Heh.
... have to smoke outside owing to house rules. Brrrrrr.
Well, there IS a solution to that problem... I'm on Bingbong's side in that discussion.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, been chewing enough candies to put on fifty pounds. -4 in Smallbany, -12 here. Eek. :(
And there just might be a bright side to all this up-country cold and all the damned snow youse got up there.
When the spring thaw comes, you just might find Joe Bruno, frozen like a PopSicle (TM). All you gotta do then is put the stick up his a**.
Down here in the outmarches the temps are sitting +12 in downtown B'more. Might get all the way down to -1.
Wonder if the LRV's will freeze to the rails tonight. Gets pretty cold in the North Avenue yard.
Yeah, this weather's bliss in the Selkirk yards ... no setting of the handbrakes required ... a little dribble of anything will hold down any pulldowns until four locos are ready to take 'em out. :)
Slow orders in full effect - this is the time of year we find out if wire's been strung too tight between poles in summer and to make sure the fishplates have enough clearance, Clarence ... but if you've got a loco running, you don't shut them down this time of year, even if there's flames. Heh.
Oh ... and not to worry about Senator Joe freezing ... gotta get down to -80 for THAT place to freeze. You'll be able to take the 2nd Avenue subway too, all the way out to 76th Street. :)
Syracuse would be the perfect place for the owner of a classic Flexible Flyer.
#3 West End Jeff
I had one when I was a kid but I preferred my tobaggan.
I still have a classic Flexible Flyer model 60J that was produced about 1963 and it is well preserved. If you have good conditions, the old sled can go down a hill quite fast.
#3 West End Jeff
I took some video of the demolition today from the W platform. I was happy to walk down one of the original ramps.
It's not too late to put it back together
I think the eBay shipping will set you back about $7,000 for a 4 piece set of those NEXT TRAIN indicators.
Next stop on the Q local, West 8th Street, NY Aquarium. Please stand clear of the closing doors.
Thank you Paul for those pictures. I'd love to buy that 'Next Train' sign, but it seems the MTA is in a 'Neo-Modern' type attitude. They want this to look like the future and it will.
I wonder what they'll do with the old BMT Standard conductor's indicator board hanging over the ramp leading down from the West End line? It was still there in September.
We could use a "Next Train" indicator board at Union Station on the Red Line here in Los Angeles. System planners always take junkets around the world when designing new subways, then omit obvious details like a "Next Train" sign.
sTANDARDS AND TRIPLEXS OK, BUT R 1-9 NAH, JUST ORIGINAL BMT EQUIPMENT, MAYBE SOME Q OR GATE CARS
If ONLY it were possible to snatch and reinstall all that steel up in Branford - trains up top, trolleys underneath, a veritable McDonald Avenue exhibition. Ah, if only ...
Not to mention a sister car for 1689 to play with.
"It was nice to see one of the remaining ramps still alive and well. I wonder if I could get this into my apartment?"
- Well said! You are are speaking for most of us who post on Subtalk. I always used to wonder how much of the 91st ST. station I could get down into my basement....
Move into a first floor apartment at the corner of 91st and Broadway and your wish will come true!
Why don’t you just solve the problem by having the MTA build you an apartment into the reconstructed station. Just think, you could have a B going through your den!
Wow, totally different from a couple of weeks ago when I was there! Most of the bridge is just about gone. I wonder what it will look like 3 months from now when I go back there.
At the rate their going, I think it's a safe bet that they may start building the new terminal. It's going to look so futuristic...or European.
I hava never seen an R44 look like this. This is from the book "New York City Subway Cars" by James Clifford Greller. The book doesnt give a picture date. Anyone know more info about this configuration of the R44?
I remember this back in the early 80's. They actually used this LED display for a short lived time.
I actually remember this! Saw it around 1982. What was the car #?
Just prior to the GOH, there was a proposal to replace ALL rollsigns, front & sides on the R44. Then in 1991-1992, when the R44's were rehabbed, the side rollsigns were replaced with Luminators but the front destination stayed as rollsigns.
This front sign was seen in the late 80's on at least one consist when the 44's got their brake jobs and were cleaned up prior to their GOH's
I remember this train. I forget the sign readings, but at 59th-CC S/B there was a marker to remind the T/O to change the sign.
Wayne
There still a sign at 59tt-CC, At least as of about 1 year ago.
Robert
it still is
What would the sign change to?
Those 8 cars had digital side signs as well as the end sign. IIRC at 59/Columbus Circle, the crew would post the south terminal destination. For whatever reason, this was not done at 207th St.
Actually it kind of makes sense. I've always considered subway lines not to be a whole line but just parts of a whole line put together. ie, when the D had its regular service pattern and you were on the Brighton line waiting to get into Manhattan, most people didn't care that the train terminated at 205 St. The signs would do just as well saying "6th Ave express" or something of the sort. It is when you get into Manhattan that the 205 St termination becomes important. Likewise going the other way, and on all trains that travel through more than two boroughs.
Is it possible that you're misremembering and the sign change was the elimination of the reference to CPW? I've always thought the current R-44/46 signs should be used like that. For instance, the SB F would start as (pardon the inexactitude) QUEENS BL EXP / via 63 ST / 6 AV LCL / CULVER LCL / to AV X and drop the first line at Queensbridge, the second line at 47-50, and the third line at Jay. The NB F would start as CULVER LCL / 6 AV LCL / via 63 ST / QUEENS BL EXP / to 179 ST and drop the first line at Jay, the second line at 57th, and the third line at Queensbridge. Why make someone looking for a SB train in Manhattan wait to see how the train was routed in Queens?
So that's what that sign refers to!
taken on 12/8?
Of course, given the angle.
Notice how the N to LaGuardia has disappeared, without a replacement concept? Without saying more or why, let's just say I wouldn't expect a rail plan to LaGuardia to reappear anytime soon.
So now what?
One possibility is to upgrade the M60 to LaGuardia. How about making it New York's first BRT line? There was a lot of talk about BRT in the first few minutes of the Bloomberg administration, but little action since them. You could make it a BRT line by putting in bus only lanes, limiting stops, and giving it signal priority -- the ability to turn the light green -- at intersections.
The M60's ridership has been growing, and it is running more frequently, but not frequently enough outside of rush hours -- just once every 10-12 minutes. And it is also too slow. You'd have to leave an enormous amount of time to take it to the airport if you hope to catch a plane.
I suggest renaming the M60 the LGA, and having it stop at subway stops and the airports only. There are already three other services on 125th Street, those between stops could take one of those and change. Bus lanes should be installed on 125th, if they aren't there already, and the LGA should be given the ability to turn the light green.
If that backs up access to the Triboro and 3rd Avenue Bridges too much (by gridlocking 2nd Avenue), then the TA build some sort of grade separation for the 125th Street bus lanes -- for a direct entry to the bridge for buses -- as part of the Second Avenue Subway project.
In Queens, the LGA would stop to pick up N train passengers and run direct to the airport, again with signal priority. And on the other side of the airport, it would run down Ditmars and Northern Blvd to Flushing, stopping to pick up passengers at both the Flushing Line and the LIRR, then run down Kissena Blvd and Parsons Blvd to Jamaica, where other LIRR passengers could transfer. I'd give it signal priority the whole way, and have it stop only at major intersections where another frequent bus service runs -- Holly ave, the LIE, and Union Turnpike.
With all that investment in bus lanes and signal priority, I'd run the LGA every four minutes or less. If there aren't enough passengers to fill a regular bus, run airport-style mini-buses.
Were it not for the up to 15 minute wait, and up to 40 minute ride AFTER the subway ride, the M60 would be the best way for me to get to LGA. Cut it down to ten minutes from the Astoria Blvd N stop, with service every four minutes, and I'd bet ridership would soar.
Were it not for the up to 15 minute wait
I once had to wait 40 minutes for one to show up at 125th/Lex in the middle of a weekday, and of course it was packed. Forget about getting luggage on board, the bus couldn't even fit all of the people. We left a lot of unhappy would-be passengers the rest of the way crosstown, and also at the Astoria Blvd N station.
Uncharacteristically, the next M60 didn't catch up to us until we were already at LGA. I would've expected to be passed by at least the next 2 buses. Maybe I'm too used to how the M15 works.
Boy, buses can be awful. I wish we had rail access to LGA.
(Boy, buses can be awful. I wish we had rail access to LGA.)
It appears that isn't going to happen. So I think we need to do something with the bus -- make it more frequent, get it out of the traffic (even though other vehicles will be sacrificed), and make it stop less frequently. It's the least we can do.
It's unfortunate that as one of the best subway systems in the country (in terms of getting from one point in the city to another), NYC still doesn't have a rail connection to LaGuardia. I wished the MTA constructed the AirTrain from LGA to Astoria Blvd on the Astoria Line mostly via the Grand Central. If any airport really needed an AirTrain to a subway it's LaGuardia.
"LGA rail service first" does make more sense; Washington Metrorail serves Reagan National Airport and they are only now getting around to thinking about Dulles. Of course, a Reagan stop had always been planned for the original Metrorail construction, so this isn't a big deal in and of itself.
But we have rail service to EWR and very soon to JFK, so two out of three isn't bad. Eventually MTA will deal with LGA.
EWR? what's EWR??? Is that what Newark Airport is going by these days?
"EWR" is the airport code for Newark Airport. Every airport in the world has a 3-letter code. If you've ever travelled by air and checked luggage, the tags have the 3 letter code to whatever airport you are travelling to. For example, "LAX" is Los Angeles Int'l, or "YYZ" is Pearson Int'l Airport in Toronto.
"EWR" is the airport code for Newark Airport. Every airport in the world has a 3-letter code. If you've ever travelled by air and checked luggage, the tags have the 3 letter code to whatever airport you are travelling to. For example, "LAX" is Los Angeles Int'l, or "YYZ" is Pearson Int'l Airport in Toronto.
And if you're traveling from Sioux City, Iowa to Fukouka, Japan, it's ... well, I'd better not say.
"Uncharacteristically, the next M60 didn't catch up to us until we were already at LGA. I would've expected to be passed by at least the next 2 buses. Maybe I'm too used to how the M15 works."
I know so much about the M60.. and I can tell you that it one of the worse bus lines I rode.. Always crowded... and doesn't run often.. All you see is the BX 15.. BX15.. BX15 ... BX15 ... than possibly a M60..
Lets just say, The M60 is the bus version of the N TRAIN.
N Bwy
The last time I rode the M60 was when it had 15 minute intervals and let me tell you, you could wait a long time. One time during the rush hour when I rode it from LGA to Manhattan, I ahd to wait a 1/2 hour, only to see 2 of them, this bus is problematic. Whenever I am around 125 St[which is not often], I ROUTINELY see 2 or 3 M60's in a row and they all are crowded.
In my view, the problem is on 125th Street itself. There is a lot of traffic for this north-of-midtown thoroughfare, facilitated by the geography of Harlem (mountains on both sides of 125th that cut off 116th and 135th streets from direct access to the west side), the many businesses that dot the street, its direct access to major highways and the Triborough Bridge, and that all train lines coming uptown stop at 125th.
The problem of the M60 is not unique; it's far worse on the M100 and M101 (especially at night), which is why this past semester I've resorted to taking either the 2, 5, or 6 lines to 149th street and waiting for the Bx19, which gets me across and up/down Harlem Heights at least 10 minutes faster than if I made the trip on 125th Street. (As a side note, I want to say that, if anything, there are a gut of M60s and Bx15s coming by when I'm on 125th Street, and, except on Saturdays, too few M100s and M101s in comparison).
The problem of trying to get across 125th Street is only going to get worse with the ongoing economic redevelopment of Harlem; more traffic and more people seeing the attractive (and expensive) residential options of Harlem are going to combine to make getting across Harlem a commute in it of itself (never mind trying to get to LGA or downtown.) The MTA really needs to pay some major attention to improving transit options and speed along the corridor, otherwise one would be well-advised to get to LGA (from the Upper West Side) by going through Times Square first!
(In my view, the problem is on 125th Street itself. The problem of trying to get across 125th Street is only going to get worse with the ongoing economic redevelopment of Harlem; more traffic and more people seeing the attractive (and expensive) residential options of Harlem are going to combine to make getting across Harlem a commute in it of itself (never mind trying to get to LGA or downtown.)
Hence, the value of dedicated bus lanes and signal priority. You can't do it on Second Avenue -- the First and Second Avenue pair are the key bus and truck routes to Midtown from to the Triboro and Willis/3rd Avenue bridges to points north. But you can build an underpass there. Elsewhere, give the east-west bus the priority over north-south traffic, and give those coming to Harlem by train priority over those passing through by can. That's the way to get economic development.
It sounds like a good plan; maybe the local Chamber of Commerce will go for it, but ten to one, not the NYCDOT. I doubt if they are going to foot the bill for building underpasses dedicated for buses (in the style of the Fordham Road underpass of Southern Boulevard, I presume) at such busy thoroughfares good economy or bad. Maybe the chances are better for resignalling every intersection on 125th Street west of Second Avenue.
I agree that 125 St itself is part of the problem however the M60 should have a better frequency if its in that much demand. I've seen the M100 and M101 and it is in fact WORSE than the M60 and Harlem's economic development will only increase problems for the buses.
"In my view, the problem is on 125th Street itself. There is a lot of traffic for this north-of-midtown thoroughfare, facilitated by the geography of Harlem (mountains on both sides of 125th that cut off 116th and 135th streets from direct access to the west side), the many businesses that dot the street, its direct access to major highways and the Triborough Bridge, and that all train lines coming uptown stop at 125th. "
IN THE LAST POST I SPOKE ABOUT TWO BUSES.. ONE FULL, THE OTHER PRACTICALLY EMPTY.. BY THE WAY, THE BUSES WERE TRAVELING FROM THE AIRPORT.. SO I DON'T SEE YOUR POINT THERE.
"The problem of the M60 is not unique; it's far worse on the M100 and M101 (especially at night), which is why this past semester I've resorted to taking either the 2, 5, or 6 lines to 149th street and waiting for the Bx19, which gets me across and up/down Harlem Heights at least 10 minutes faster than if I made the trip on 125th Street. (As a side note, I want to say that, if anything, there are a gut of M60s and Bx15s coming by when I'm on 125th Street, and, except on Saturdays, too few M100s and M101s in comparison). "
I know what you mean, the M101 can be a real pain getting from one end of Manhattan to another.. But, have you tried the 104... or any of the buses that travel down 5th Avenue.. If you want to talk about slow.. these buses are probably the slowest in the entire system.
"The problem of trying to get across 125th Street is only going to get worse with the ongoing economic redevelopment of Harlem; more traffic and more people seeing the attractive (and expensive) residential options of Harlem are going to combine to make getting across Harlem a commute in it of itself (never mind trying to get to LGA or downtown.) The MTA really needs to pay some major attention to improving transit options and speed along the corridor, otherwise one would be well-advised to get to LGA (from the Upper West Side) by going through Times Square first!"
Which is why I think a crosstown 125th Street SUBWAY line is a good idea.. What other options would you suggest?
N Bwy
The route - from the West Side Highway across 125th Street (stopping at all of the other subway lines) to the Second Avenue Subway and then downtown.
"The last time I rode the M60 was when it had 15 minute intervals and let me tell you, you could wait a long time. One time during the rush hour when I rode it from LGA to Manhattan, I ahd to wait a 1/2 hour, only to see 2 of them, this bus is problematic. Whenever I am around 125 St[which is not often], I ROUTINELY see 2 or 3 M60's in a row and they all are crowded. "
THIS HAPPENED TODAY AT AROUND 2:30 PM WHILE I WAS IN HARLEM. 2 BUSES.. ONE BEHIND THE OTHER.. ONE FULL.. AND THE OTHER PRACTICALLY EMPTY.
WHEN WILL THEY LEARN?
N BWY
I assume your talking about the passengers. Too bad they don't think like us railfans & busfans. The MTA should think about increasing frequency too....
I would not criticize the passengers. I would criticize the scheduling and the dispatching.
If I understand correctly, the trick is to take the Q33 from the 74 St or 82 St Flushing stop.
Others seem to use the R33 with success, as posted below. Circuitous but frequent.
You could post this on Bustalk too. I rode the M60 once and BOY WAS IT CROWDED! If its getting more popular like that, they should extend the N to LGA and creates another connection to the 60 and would give riders more opportunities to get a seat at LGA. Maybe they should consider putting the MCI's on the 60 if it gets that bad since there are luggage compartments and I'd go for a frequency every 8 minutes the most.
Who said anything about the N train to LGA plan being dead?
With all the connecting travelers between LGA and JFK why not extend the Airtrain from Jamaica to LGA (with a stop near the Shea Stadium LIRR, and #7 train) and past LGA to the N train terminus.
The PA might just do that - in future, with enough money. The cost of the original AirTrain proposal of 1994, set at over $6 billion, caused the PA to scale it back considerably.
The area around shea stadium would make a great location for a convention center/ hotel complex. Besides the large conventions that are held at javits, there is a need for smaller convention meeting facility's that are close to the airport. There was a study a few years back by the local hospitality industry that stated such a need. Multinational companies with distributed operations need meeting space close to airports. Chicargo has taken most of this business.
We talked about that option in the past -- extending Airtrain through the airport and down to Long Island City where subway and commuter rail transfers would be available.
Unfortunately, the PA has a big hole in its budget. Airports are not as profitable as they used to be, and the WTC is missing. In addition , New Jersey will push for any and all Port Authority airport surplus funds to be used for a new tunnel for New Jersey. And the the City will push for higher airport lease payments -- which will just go into the general budget to pay off the Giuliani debts, the deficit in the lucrative pre-1980 pensions, and Medicaid. So I only hope the PA will be able to pay to maintain its own facilities.
Giuliani ran up a big debt in a boom in order to pump up his popularity for a Senate run, then dumped the Senate run when he decided he wanted to be with someone other than the wife of his children. Giuliani got a trophy wife, and all we got was Hillary and this lousy debt.
Giuliani ran up a big debt in a boom in order to pump up his popularity for a Senate run, then dumped the Senate run when he decided he wanted to be with someone other than the wife of his children. Giuliani got a trophy wife, and all we got was Hillary and this lousy debt.
Guess that makes Hillary our trophy. Christ, what a grotesque thought.
Wow, it was going to cost over $6B back in 1994? I was surprised at that figure; of course the PA is going to scale back on a price like that.
It's not a bad idea, although my concern is that by instituting special bus service there'd be no incentive to look at rail again. And even the best bus service is no substitute for rail.
(It's not a bad idea, although my concern is that by instituting special bus service there'd be no incentive to look at rail again.
And even the best bus service is no substitute for rail.)
I'm pretty sure rail is out for the conceivable future. I think a transfer to a bus with signal priority is the best we are going to do out beyond the existing system. The problem is there is no way that's a solution in Manhattan. Only the Second Avenue Subway is.
Were it not for the up to 15 minute wait, and up to 40 minute ride AFTER the subway ride, the M60 would be the best way for me to get to LGA. Cut it down to ten minutes from the Astoria Blvd N stop, with service every four minutes, and I'd bet ridership would soar.
If there were sufficient passenger demand for an express bus between the airport and a subway station, then Triboro Coach would have instituted it long ago. The blunt fact is that airport demand is not sufficient to meet operating costs for any mass transit link.
I proposed a challenge that there be a free LGA to Ditmars (or Astoria Blvd) shuttle bus, when the N extension was proposed. I also said that should it not get anywhere that the planners had better look for other projects. I seem to recall that you objected to such a test.
"I proposed a challenge that there be a free LGA to Ditmars (or Astoria Blvd) shuttle bus, when the N extension was proposed. I also said that should it not get anywhere that the planners had better look for other projects. I seem to recall that you objected to such a test."
I propose something a bit different. Since reduction of traffic and congestion and pollution in the area around LaGuardia is an important goal, I would extend a subway to the airport, then double the parking fees and see what effect that has on transit ridership. If people truly want to drive there, let them - but let them pay accordingly.
While parking fees may indeed be doubled for commercial reasons, your "proposal" has some problems.
What percentage of LGA passengers would be able to use your proposed N extension? Should those who do not reside anywhere near the route be similarly penalized? Consider the opposition to taxing commuters.
The answer to the first question is available on the web. Did you examine the data before you proposed the tax?
There is also the question of more than $1 billion in construction costs. Who should bear them? I propose that it be a surtax on incomes for all residents of KC, who might be as likely as New Yorkers to use an N extension to LGA.
Ground transportation to LGA stinks. There are 5 or 6 bus lines that terminate just outside the airport. These lines go to population centers. Their terminals could be extended into the airport to provide more ground transportation service.
The shuttle bus that I proposed could be implemented without massive expenditure of money and almost immediately. Some of the routing could use airport property, which would avoid traffic delays along Astoria Blvd. What is your aversion to quick, dirty and CHEAP solutions?
"What percentage of LGA passengers would be able to use your proposed N extension? "
I didn't say it should necessarily be an N extension, though that would be the cheapest option to build. There are other options, proposed and listed in previous posts by other Subtalkers and myself.
The N train provides reasonably easy access to LGA for anyone in Manhattan and those connecting from the 7 train. That data is available on MTA's website. Did you check it before posting?
"Should those who do not reside anywhere near the route be similarly penalized? Consider the opposition to taxing commuters. "
I am not penalizing anyone - merely making it easier for subway passengers to reach LGA (and vice-versa). Bus passengers to LGA (includes both MTA and private airport buses) would not have to pay the parking fees, either.
"There is also the question of more than $1 billion in construction costs. Who should bear them? I propose that it be a surtax on incomes for all residents of KC, who might be as likely as New Yorkers to use an N extension to LGA."
A very silly statement. In a sense, though,you already have your wish. Federal construction money pays for a lot of transit construction, and so Kansas City residents make their contribution.
"Ground transportation to LGA stinks. There are 5 or 6 bus lines that terminate just outside the airport. These lines go to population centers. Their terminals could be extended into the airport to provide more ground transportation service."
Agreed. Trouble is, LGA is already congested. How much more traffic do you want on access roads? More bus service is simply not a replacement for subway service. That's foolish.
"The shuttle bus that I proposed could be implemented without massive expenditure of money and almost immediately."
And if nobody rides it (because it cannot replicate the convenience of rail service), will you be willing to write a check to reimburse MTA for the experiment?
"What is your aversion to quick, dirty and CHEAP solutions?"
My aversion comes from the one adjective you neglected to include: INEFFECTIVE.
I didn't say it should necessarily be an N extension, though that would be the cheapest option to build. There are other options, proposed and listed in previous posts by other Subtalkers and myself.
You must come up with a single proposal or do you propose to build 3 or 4 extensions to LGA at a billion dollars a pop?
My aversion comes from the one adjective you neglected to include: INEFFECTIVE.
You have not yet established what the potential demand will be. Depending on the numbers an effective solution might be to give everybody $20 for a cab ride.
Hard numbers for airports that do have rail links show that any extension that goes solely to an airport of LGA or JFK's size will loose money on operations at a greater rate than elsewhere on the system.
What numbers exist show that a bus link is more than adequate from a capacity perspective.
(I proposed a challenge that there be a free LGA to Ditmars (or Astoria Blvd) shuttle bus, when the N extension was proposed. I also said that should it not get anywhere that the planners had better look for other projects. I seem to recall that you objected to such a test. )
Not at all. In fact I wrote in to the MTA to ask why there was no Howard Beach type shuttle bus from Ditmars today -- it could help build support for the N to LGA. Moreover, any shuttle bus would be free thanks to the free transfer from Metrocard.
If we are going to have a two-seat ride, however, we could at least have a two-seat ride from multiple transfer points. Hence my suggestion -- turn the M60 into, in effect, a free shuttle bus not only from Ditmars (or Astoria Blvd) but also from MetroNorth at 125th Street, the Lexington Avenuue line at 125th Street, the Lenox Avenue Line, the 8th Avenue Line, the terminus of the Flushing Line, LIRR's Port Washington Line, and the LIRR at Jamaica.
Such a route, IF IT WERE FAST ENOUGH, could be used not only by those going to/from the airport but also by those moving around Queens. You'd have to have bus lanes, signal priority, and just a handful of stops to make it work. And you'd have to publicize it.
I think there is a political issue here -- the PA doesn't want additional bus service. Since the M60 already has permission, however, maybe additional approvals would not be required.
Moreover, any shuttle bus would be free thanks to the free transfer from Metrocard.
It should not take a Metrocard to provide FREE transportation. No fare box and having self-opening front and rear doors is all that is necessary. :-)
If we are going to have a two-seat ride, however, we could at least have a two-seat ride from multiple transfer points. Hence my suggestion -- turn the M60 into, in effect, a free shuttle bus not only from Ditmars (or Astoria Blvd) but also from MetroNorth at 125th Street, the Lexington Avenuue line at 125th Street, the Lenox Avenue Line, the 8th Avenue Line, the terminus of the Flushing Line, LIRR's Port Washington Line, and the LIRR at Jamaica.
There are two questions here. The first is to gauge how many would use a $1 billion extension to the N. One way to gauge potential demand would be to provide quick, free shuttle service to Ditmars/Astoria Blv to LGA. If it is a failure, then it raises the question of whether the commercial viability of an N extension is a fantasy.
The second question is whether existing non-rail transit to LGA can be improved. The answer is definitely yes. My contention is that there is not sufficient demand to provide dedicated (express bus service) from the closest train stations. N.B. the distance between Roosevelt and LGA is approximately the same as between Boston's Logan Airport terminals and Airport Station. In Boston, the bus link was initially funded by the City of Boston and not the MTA.
I think there is a political issue here -- the PA doesn't want additional bus service.
Well, the PA successfully lobbied to have existing rail service to LGA removed, when they took over the airport.
"Well, the PA successfully lobbied to have existing rail service to LGA removed, when they took over the airport."
Can you pelase elaborate? I've never heard of any previously existing rail service to LGA.
Can you pelase elaborate? I've never heard of any previously existing rail service to LGA.
Sure.
That's a cute little trolley, Stephen, but in New York today, effective rail service means isolating the train on its own ROW. The cancellation of the service whose photo you posted doesn't mean much.
effective rail service means isolating the train on its own ROW
Actually, that trolley did have its own ROW from GCP to just north of Roosevelt Ave and Junction Blv.
There was another rail connection from Astoria on its own ROW that was removed. There aren't any pictures on the web for a link.
It's too bad that was removed. But it's milk spilled a long time ago. Of course for you it will always be 1957. You're frozen in time...
It's too bad that was removed. But it's milk spilled a long time ago. Of course for you it will always be 1957. You're frozen in time...
The question is whether planning agencies that made poor decisions and take billions of dollars to undue should have credibility when they make such proposals.
I, for one, believe that their motivation for proposing multi-billion dollar projects to replace ones that that they previously removed has nothing to do with a desire to undue a bad decision. I believe it has more to do with the opportunity to spend billions of dollars and acquire the power that comes with it. Unfortuantely, society does not have many spare billions to spend on planners' power trips. Such billions must be rationed according to some form of cost-benefit formula. Most importantly, benefits derived from current billion dollar airport access schemes have a very low cost-benefit ratio.
BTW, I might place more trust your judgement, if you occasionaly got your facts right - e.g. if you took the time to discover exactly when rail service to LGA was terminated. :-)
(BTW, I might place more trust your judgement, if you occasionaly got your facts right - e.g. if you took the time to discover
exactly when rail service to LGA was terminated. :-)
Glad to see Mr. Polyanna and Mr. "Don't Do Anything for the Future Until I Cash In And Move Away" have gotten around to snidely dissing each other instead of me. Hopefully this will go on for some time. It could be amusing. Then again perhaps it would be better if this would tone down -- I'd benefit too.
As far as cost-benefit ratios, they depend a great deal on one's discount rate. I'd expect that Mr. Bauman's discount rate is very, very high. Mine is very, very low, close to zero, since I care as much about a legacy for the future as I do about the present. I intend to be here, and hope my children will be here, in that future. Mr. Bauman's point of view, however, dominates the state government.
Cost-benefit ratios also depend on upfront costs. These are inflated by all the paperwork, "mitigation" and profiteering that how comes with a public project in New York. The cost of the N to LaGuardia was $700 million from Ditmars to the border of the airport. Why? I still can't figure it out, and I now work for CPM. Good thing we already have most of the system we need. You couldn't build it today.
Gold plating does go on, unfortunately. The latest example is East Side Access. With the money they could save by just using the existing terminal, rather than digging out a whole separate third level and waiting room, they could probably implement a full MetroNorth to Penn program. But the N to LaGuardia would be a short extension to a place with 30,000 jobs, not to mention the travelers. All these other cities have built such connections. Were they out of their minds?
But the N to LaGuardia would be a short extension to a place with 30,000 jobs, not to mention the travelers.
Another planners' ploy is to inflate the benefits for projects.
In this case the Port Authority can find fewer than 10,000 on site employees.
(Another planners' ploy is to inflate the benefits for projects. In this case the Port Authority can find fewer than 10,000 on site employees.)
In and around the airport, in 1989, employers were paying unemployment taxes on closer to 30,000, according to state unemployment insurance data I compiled at the time. Some of this is the difference between on and off airport, some is the difference between years. There is also the question of whether the Port Authority was including all the non-air service people who work there. I don't make numbers up.
There is no rule that says that if the N were extended to LGA, one couldn't take it to the airport and walk across the Grand Central to an airport hotel. I took that very walk in the other direction, from a paid parking low, last time I flew out of there -- if the N went to the airport, I might have taken the subway instead of driving.
Geez, go back to insulting Ron will you?
In and around the airport, in 1989, employers were paying unemployment taxes on closer to 30,000, according to state unemployment insurance data I compiled at the time. Some of this is the difference between on and off airport, some is the difference between years. There is also the question of whether the Port Authority was including all the non-air service people who work there. I don't make numbers up.
Whatever the precise number may be, it's reasonable to assume that it's significantly lower today than it was a couple of years ago, and that it's almost certain to keep dropping. More and more people are choosing to drive rather than take the short flights that predominate at LGA. Acela is steadily cutting away at the shuttles that long have accounted for a non-trivial percentage of LGA's traffic. Given these trends, spending $700 million (or whatever) on an LGA rail link may be a solution in search of a problem.
"More and more people are choosing to drive rather than take the short flights that predominate at LGA."
In these past 16 months, people have avoided planes for fear of terrorism and because of a bad economy. But what evidence do you have that this trend is continuing to grow stronger?
More and more people are choosing to drive rather than take the short flights that predominate at LGA.
In these past 16 months, people have avoided planes for fear of terrorism and because of a bad economy. But what evidence do you have that this trend is continuing to grow stronger?
Many people who've been driving instead of flying for safety reasons are finding out that driving's not so bad after all. Some of them are likely to stick with driving even if flying should start to seem less risky. That's especially true what with the extra time needed at airports. We're getting to the point where driving can be faster for trips of up to 500 miles, and is at least semi-competitive up to 1,000 miles. Short flights like that account for a big percentage of LGA's traffic. In addition, many businesses have turned to videoconferencing as an alternative to face-to-face meetings, and have found it satisfactory. Business travelers have always been a major factor at LGA.
It is true that some people will return to flying once the danger factor lessens (although New Yorkers are sure to remain fearful longer than people elsewhere) and the economy improves. But that does not mean that air travel will ever come back to its former levels, at least not for many years to come. Given this more or less permanently diminished state, I'd say that the money needed for an LGA rail link could be more usefully spent elsewhere.
More and more people are choosing to drive rather than take the short flights that predominate at LGA.
In these past 16 months, people have avoided planes for fear of terrorism and because of a bad economy. But what evidence do you have that this trend is continuing to grow stronger?
Many people who've been driving instead of flying for safety reasons are finding out that driving's not so bad after all. Some of them are likely to stick with driving even if flying should start to seem less risky. That's especially true what with the extra time needed at airports. We're getting to the point where driving can be faster for trips of up to 500 miles, and is at least semi-competitive up to 1,000 miles. Short flights like that account for a big percentage of LGA's traffic. In addition, many businesses have turned to videoconferencing as an alternative to face-to-face meetings, and have found it satisfactory. Business travelers have always been a major factor at LGA.
It is true that some people will return to flying once the danger factor lessens (although New Yorkers are sure to remain fearful longer than people elsewhere) and the economy improves. But that does not mean that air travel will ever come back to its former levels, at least not for many years to come. Given this more or less permanently diminished state, I'd say that the money needed for an LGA rail link could be more usefully spent elsewhere.
I would agree, in part. To me, given that rail access is now a reality at EWR and JFK (soon), the Second Avenue Subway and the IRT extension to Javits along with an improved WTC PATH-Subway transfer concourse are much more important projects.
(I would agree, in part. To me, given that rail access is now a reality at EWR and JFK (soon), the Second Avenue Subway and the IRT extension to Javits along with an improved WTC PATH-Subway transfer concourse are much more important projects.)
There is definately more interest in JFK -- it had capacity, which JetBlue took advantage of, and the Airtrain will make it easier to get to, esp. if it gets a one-seat ride and LGA does not.
Still, I would argue there is a need to do SOMETHING for LGA. Instead of three slow, infrequent local buses how about one frequent express bus? It could at least replace the M60 and Q48.
There are currently express buses operated by private carriers that take riders to jfk and lga. these buses i believe operated out of or near the port authority.
If you're going to operate an LGA bus for the benefit of Manhattanites it might as well be from the Port Authority. As good a location as any.
(If you're going to operate an LGA bus for the benefit of Manhattanites it might as well be from the Port Authority. As good a
location as any. )
Not so. Two words -- Midtown Crosstown Traffic. If I can't take a bus all the way to the airport, at least let me take one as far as possible, preferably to a place where I'll hit fewer traffic lights and less traffic the rest of the way.
What I want is the equivalent of the shuttle bus from Howard Beach at JFK.
"Midtown Crosstown Traffic."
I personally find the two most reliable ways of getting to LGA are:
1. Bus from 41st and Park. They really do try to stick to their schedule (which they manage by over-provisioning; there's usually various idle buses waiting their turn there).
2. LIRR to Woodside followed by (non-medallion) taxi from there.
"Bus from 41st and Park. They really do try to stick to their schedule (which they manage by over-provisioning; there's usually various idle buses waiting their turn there)."
Good for passengers but it must be quite a money loser (paying for all those drivers, fuel, etc. to be sitting around).
I think they make money. I forget who it is (a private company, the succesor to Carey), but they've been around for many years now. They probably pay their drivers less than NYCT bus drivers and they charge a fair amount (I'm guessing $11 for LGA, $16 for JFK; haven't taken it in a while).
(They probably pay their drivers less than NYCT bus drivers and they charge a fair amount (I'm guessing $11 for LGA, $16 for JFK; haven't taken it in a while).
It's expensive. It's also unreliable -- they can get nailed on the BQE same as anyone else. Last time at LGA I caught a cab to Ditmars, then took the N. Two problems -- the yellow cabby, after waiting his turn for a fare, was probably mad as hell that he only got a fare for a couple of miles rather than all the way to Manhattan. Can't blame him. And there is no guarantee of getting a ride in the other direction.
Hence, the express bus idea. I'll also take Bauman's shuttle, but there is no need for a bus to serve just one subway station when it can serve several, and also serve people looking for a quick ride to someplace other than the airport.
If they haven't changed the system since I hacked in the 70's the driver doesn't really lose anything by getting a short fare. The dispatcher gave you a "shortie" ticket which let you get to the head of the line if you came back within a certain amount of time. (I forget how long a time they gave you but it was liberal) The dispatcher had a list of locations that were given shortie tickets. Ditmars would definitely have been on it. I doubt they changed the system.
(If they haven't changed the system since I hacked in the 70's the driver doesn't really lose anything by getting a short fare. The
dispatcher gave you a "shortie" ticket which let you get to the head of the line if you came back within a certain amount of time.)
I guess they think of everything. Perhaps, if nothing else, there should be a cab stand at Ditmars. Is there one there now?
Years ago, there was a yellow cab stand at Ditamrs, when yellows still served the outer boros. Not any more.
They still run those airport buses, I thought Carey folded completely, guess I was wrong. The company might be Olympia bus lines or whatever is.
It's neither Carey nor Olympia. I just forget the name, though. Something forgettable like NY Airport Transit.
The fallacy resurfaces. Service to one point in Manhattan only serves that one point in Manhattan.
I'm a Manhattanite, one who lives not far from the Port Authority. I could take an express bus to the Port Authority, but then I'd have to take the subway up to 86th Street. It's easier and faster to take the M60 to the M104 or the M60 to the 2/3 to the 1/9. It's also cheaper: one subway/bus fare rather than the express bus fare plus an additional subway fare.
If the M60 is a better option for me, it's surely a better option for those Manhattanites who live north or east of me -- and most Manhattanites live north or east of me.
Service to one point in Manhattan, be it the Port Authority or anywhere else, misses the point of a complex transit system.
"I'm a Manhattanite, one who lives not far from the Port Authority. I could take an express bus to the Port Authority, but then I'd have to take the subway up to 86th Street."
Yes, true. So what?
"It's easier and faster to take the M60 to the M104 or the M60 to the 2/3 to the 1/9."
Really? That sounds like 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. And the "faster" part is debatable. But of course you shuld do what you're most comfortable with.
"It's also cheaper: one subway/bus fare rather than the express bus fare plus an additional subway fare."
That's true. You're saving the express bus fare.
"If the M60 is a better option for me, it's surely a better option for those Manhattanites who live north or east of me -- and most Manhattanites live north or east of me. "
That's an obvious fallacy - David Greenberger, as enjoyable as he is on Subtalk, is most definitely NOT typical of Manhattanites living on his side of the island...:0)
Seriously, though, you cannot assume that that is true.
Personally, if I have to use a bus, the PA is great. I also think that GCT, 125 Street-Metro-North and Penn are good places too, if you want additional buses.
The Port Authority is between 8th Avenue and 9th Avenue. The subway line that takes me home is on 7th Avenue. That's a substantial walk with luggage. At least it's walkable -- or would you suggest that an East Sider walk across town to Grand Central?
If I take the M60 to the last stop, I can catch the M104 around the corner. Or if I get off the M60 at Lenox, the staircase to the 2/3 is similarly around the corner.
The M60 has plusses and minuses. The big plus is that it meets many subway and bus lines. The big minus is that it's subject to traffic conditions. An express bus to the Port Authority has the minus but not the plus. It's a good option for someone traveling on business who works near Times Square. It's a good option for someone connecting to a bus to New Jersey. It's a bad option for the average Manhattan resident -- it's too far south for most and it has limited subway and (local) bus connections.
I find it amusing that, in the context of providing a useful service to Manhattanites (which you brought up), your suggested bus stops are the commuter rail and bus stations. Which Manhattanites would find those connecting services of any use whatsoever? Wouldn't it be more useful to a Manhattanite to have connections to subway and bus routes?
"The Port Authority is between 8th Avenue and 9th Avenue. The subway line that takes me home is on 7th Avenue. That's a substantial walk with luggage. At least it's walkable -- or would you suggest that an East Sider walk across town to Grand Central? "
The Port Authority has over 300 gates serving buses that head everywhere - Jersey, Westchester, Rockland, Pennsylvania, Long Island etc. etc. It's served directly by the A C E subways, is surrounded by city bus routes, and it's a block from Times Square, the world's biggest subway station. That's about as big a plus as anybody could want.
"It's a good option for someone traveling on business who works near Times Square."
Or who wants to get anywhere else, since Times Square has subway lines going everywhere. Or did you forget that?
"It's a bad option for the average Manhattan resident -- it's too far south for most and it has limited subway and (local) bus connections."
False statement, as I've clearly shown.
Now, I'm not saying it can't be improved. I don't believe that Times Square is fully ADA-compliant for every platform and every line (correct me if I'm wrong). If you could put in a new bus terminal at Times Square, right over all the subways, especially for airport service, that would be cool. And yes, it is a block away. Maybe a moving sidewalk would be in order to connect everybody. I'd like that.
You truly are amusing to read sometimes. I could see you entering one side of a buffett and complaining to the chef that all he offers for breakfast is cereal and donuts, when to your right are the warmers for the eggs, pancakes, French Toast, and waffles. But you'd have to turn your head and look, and then step over there.
"I find it amusing that, in the context of providing a useful service to Manhattanites (which you brought up), your suggested bus stops are the commuter rail and bus stations. "
Because they have rail services going to places people want to go, as well as convenient subway connections.
"Which Manhattanites would find those connecting services of any use whatsoever?"
Nearly all of them would (except you, of course :0))
"The Port Authority is between 8th Avenue and 9th Avenue. The subway line that takes me home is on 7th Avenue. That's a substantial walk with luggage. At least it's walkable -- or would you suggest that an East Sider walk across town to Grand Central? "
The Port Authority has over 300 gates serving buses that head everywhere - Jersey, Westchester, Rockland, Pennsylvania, Long Island etc. etc.
And which of those gates do I go to to find a bus that will take me home? (In other words: that's nice, but it's irrelevant to a Manhattan resident trying to get home from the airport.)
It's served directly by the A C E subways, is surrounded by city bus routes, and it's a block from Times Square, the world's biggest subway station. That's about as big a plus as anybody could want.
If a bus from LGA could only serve one point in Manhattan, the Port Authority would be a good choice. But the M60 serves more than one point in Manhattan, and it offers more direct Manhattan bus and subway connections than a service to the Port Authority does.
The primary residential sections of Manhattan are served by three trunk lines. The Port Authority abuts one of them and is a long block away from another. The third, which happens to be the busiest, is across town. At best, the transfer to the subway entails a walk through the Port Authority building. The M60 manages to stop at all three trunk lines, and I mean at -- the subway station entrances are at worst around the corner from the bus stops.
"It's a good option for someone traveling on business who works near Times Square."
Or who wants to get anywhere else, since Times Square has subway lines going everywhere. Or did you forget that?
Which subway line from Times Square goes to the Upper East Side?
If connections are your primary consideration, then the M60 wins hands down.
"It's a bad option for the average Manhattan resident -- it's too far south for most and it has limited subway and (local) bus connections."
False statement, as I've clearly shown.
I'm afraid you haven't shown anything. How is it a better option for the average Manhattan resident than the M60? A large majority of Manhattan residents live north of 42nd Street.
Now, I'm not saying it can't be improved. I don't believe that Times Square is fully ADA-compliant for every platform and every line (correct me if I'm wrong). If you could put in a new bus terminal at Times Square, right over all the subways, especially for airport service, that would be cool. And yes, it is a block away. Maybe a moving sidewalk would be in order to connect everybody. I'd like that.
The Times Square complex will be fully ADA-compliant once all phases of the current rehab are completed. At present only the IND platforms are ADA-compliant, thanks to a mini-rehab in the 80's, though the accomodation -- ramps to the platforms rather than elevators -- is of little value to the otherwise able-bodied traveler with wheelless luggage. (I say this because you seem to think that ADA accomodations are a cure-all to whatever difficulties exist in carrying luggage. They aren't, but at least an elevator is of some help.)
I'd love to see a moving sidewalk -- not specifically for the handful of airport passengers but for the many subway passengers who use that corridor to transfer between lines. I don't think one is currently planned -- the walls would need to be dug out, for one thing.
You truly are amusing to read sometimes. I could see you entering one side of a buffett and complaining to the chef that all he offers for breakfast is cereal and donuts, when to your right are the warmers for the eggs, pancakes, French Toast, and waffles. But you'd have to turn your head and look, and then step over there.
And you would fail to notice the competing establishment next door that serves a greater variety of entrees and even gives them away for free.
"I find it amusing that, in the context of providing a useful service to Manhattanites (which you brought up), your suggested bus stops are the commuter rail and bus stations. "
Because they have rail services going to places people want to go, as well as convenient subway connections.
Which of those rail services are useful to Manhattanites trying to get home from the airport? LIRR has only one station in Manhattan. Metro-North has three, but one is in Manhattan due to a technicality. The subway has dozens, and the M60 connects directly to lines that serve all but a handful.
Any single rail or bus station has inconvenient (and few) subway connections compared to the M60.
"Which Manhattanites would find those connecting services of any use whatsoever?"
Nearly all of them would (except you, of course :0))
Kindly explain how nearly all Manhattanites would find commuter bus and commuter rail services of any use in getting from the Port Authority (in Manhattan) to their homes (in Manhattan).
While winding my way through your long post, I discovered an aspect of our seeming disagreement. It was that you and I rested on different assumptions.
I never said the express bus to the PA was superior to the M60 - only that it had pluses and minuses of its own.
"If a bus from LGA could only serve one point in Manhattan, the Port Authority would be a good choice."
That was my assumption. An express bus, which to make a schedule is legally allowed to discharge and drop off only at limited points. Isn't that what we were talking about?
Only allowed one point? Make it the Port Authority Bus Terminal. Only allowed two points? Make it the PA plus Grand Central, so passengers can catch Lex trains up and down the East Side. Three points? There are a number of places I can think of, but I'll let you pick your favorites.
"At present only the IND platforms are ADA-compliant, thanks to a mini-rehab in the 80's, though the accomodation -- ramps to the platforms rather than elevators -- is of little value to the otherwise able-bodied traveler with wheelless luggage. (I say this because you seem to think that ADA accomodations are a cure-all to whatever difficulties exist in carrying luggage. They aren't, but at least an elevator is of some help.)"
You misunderstand what I said.
ADA-compliant stations are superior to those with no accommodations. It isn't possible in New York to redo all stations to the same architecture. Some stations will have ramps; others elevators. I like elevators, but you yourself have pointed out that they break down. Ramps can be longer to negotiate, but they don't suffer those kinds of breakdowns.
The vast majority of airport travelers now have wheeled luggage. It's ubiquitous, so your complaint about non-wheeled luggage doesn't apply anymore to most travelers. And motorized and manual wheelchairs do just fine on ADA-compliant ramps (1:12 slope).
Wheeled luggage is no longer expensive. Why not get yourself some pieces, so ramps will be less of a problem for you?
"The Times Square complex will be fully ADA-compliant once all phases of the current rehab are completed."
Excellent news!
"I'd love to see a moving sidewalk -- not specifically for the handful of airport passengers but for the many subway passengers who use that corridor to transfer between lines. I don't think one is currently planned -- the walls would need to be dug out, for one thing."
Like you, I believe in equal opportunity sidewalk-riding.
----------------
BTW: Interesting note about wheelchairs: Manufacturers of motorized wheelchairs have lately been ignoring transit operator pleas to keep the wheelchair weight down. (The features and high-power motors and batteries they add are heavy). Federal law requires bus and paratransit van wheelchair lifts to handle 600 lb payloads (chair plus rider), but the newest fancy wheelchairs can easily make riders exceed that.
So no getting on the bus. And when two riders weighing 800 lbs each get into an elevator whose posted weight limit is 1500 lbs, guess what? They're screwed again (each has to ride separately).
The Times Square complex will be fully ADA-compliant once all phases of the current rehab are completed. At present only the IND platforms are ADA-compliant, thanks to a mini-rehab in the 80's, though the accomodation -- ramps to the platforms rather than elevators -- is of little value to the otherwise able-bodied traveler with wheelless luggage. (I say this because you seem to think that ADA accomodations are a cure-all to whatever difficulties exist in carrying luggage. They aren't, but at least an elevator is of some help.)
Anyone with heavy wheel-less luggage is going to be carrying the luggage elsewhere in the station. Not to mention in the airport, onto and off the bus, etc. Carrying it up and down a couple of ramps isn't going to make much difference. Besides, as Ron in Bayside mentioned, wheeled luggage is pretty cheap today (not that I would ever use something wimpy like that, of course.)
I don't know how you travel, but I usually find myself with one large bag and a bunch of small carryons. If I felt like spending money on luggage right now (I rarely fly -- I'm soon taking my first flight in close to two years -- so the investment is hardly worthwhile), I could easily upgrade the large bag to one with wheels, but what about the small ones? I'm not willing to join the bandwagon and inconsiderately tie up the flight while trying to squeeze a house on wheels into the overhead luggage rack.
The way I travel, I want to do as little walking as possible. I don't care much if that walking involves a staircase here or there as long as I don't have to do much of it. The M60 picks me up at the terminal and drops me off around the corner from the bus or subway that will take me the rest of the way home. Why on earth would I pay a hefty premium for an express bus that will force me to do a lot more walking?
Incidentally, I can't imagine that the ramps at that station are terribly convenient for someone with two or pieces of wheeled luggage -- they'd bump into all the corners. In general, I think anyone with more than one piece of luggage, whether carrying or wheeling or both, would want to minimize walking.
"Incidentally, I can't imagine that the ramps at that station are terribly convenient for someone with two or pieces of wheeled luggage -- they'd bump into all the corners. "
You'd be wrong - but that's understandable, since, apparently, you've never used such luggage.
I do; my wife does, air crews routinely do; lots of other people do. They don't bump into corners.
"In general, I think anyone with more than one piece of luggage, whether carrying or wheeling or both, would want to minimize walking. "
Agreed, but you experience a lot more inconvenience than the average traveler, and you are not typical of most disabled folks, either - which is why most current ADA adaptations work well for the people who need them. The TA cannot spend millions of dollars per station adapting it to the disabled, and then spend it again to suit David Greenberger.
"I don't know how you travel, but I usually find myself with one large bag and a bunch of small carryons. If I felt like spending money on luggage right now (I rarely fly -- I'm soon taking my first flight in close to two years -- so the investment is hardly worthwhile), I could easily upgrade the large bag to one with wheels, but what about the small ones?"
How about chucking the smaller ones and getting another medium size one.
I would think the average person would want to minimize the number of bags he/she had to drag along on a trip.
But not you.
Well my "luggage" looks suspiciously like a duffel bag ... in fact, it is a duffle bag. I can never quite understand these people who seem unable to travel anywhere without hauling along all of their life's possessions.
As the old joke says, before you go on a trip you should carefully plan out how much money and how much clothing you'll need. Be very precise in your calculations. Then take twice the money and half the clothing.
They make duffel bugs with wheels now...my wife made me buy one for us.
In and around the airport, in 1989, employers were paying unemployment taxes on closer to 30,000, according to state unemployment insurance data I compiled at the time. Some of this is the difference between on and off airport, some is the difference between years. There is also the question of whether the Port Authority was including all the non-air service people who work there. I don't make numbers up.
Clearly, there is a specificity question here. "In and around" is fairly loose. It could include almost anything.
There is no rule that says that if the N were extended to LGA, one couldn't take it to the airport and walk across the Grand Central to an airport hotel...
There should be a rule regarding what the walking distance to a station is. This should be used to define what a subway station serves on a consistent basis. I did propose using the Board of Education's criterion for not providing free bus service to third graders (when I was a 9 years old) - 0.75 miles - some time ago. Do you have a better criterion?
Geez, go back to insulting Ron will you?
Somebody has to put those silly ideas into his uncritical head. What's wrong with going after the source? :-)
(Geez, go back to insulting Ron will you? : Somebody has to put those silly ideas into his uncritical head. What's wrong with going after the source? :-)
If you weren't so humorous and I were so tolerant, this could be one of those stupid flame wars (much rather have you have one with Ron).
As for the boundaries, I can't recall, and like much of the work I did at City Planning, that study ended up in the circular file (lots of copies of five bound volumes). But my guess is a lot was within 3/4 miles of the airport boundary. We included all the M-zoned land around, where the rental cars are, and the hotels.
And the extension, if it were built, could have included a stop in the industrial area west of the airport. Heck, I wanted to see it extended out the other end, elevated along the water, into Flushing and Collge Point, to take some pressure off the Flushing Line. The empty area of the old Flushing Airport could have been used for park-n-ride lots. That entire extension shouldn't have cost more than $500 million. It would have, but it shouldn't have.
Come on, Larry, it's a game. Stephen enjoys the attention. He likes posting details (sometimes real, sometimes not, often out of context) and then challenging us on it. I'm not insulted at all. If he gets a kick out of it, good for him.
This is Subtalk. It's OK. :0)
But my guess is a lot was within 3/4 miles of the airport boundary.
Within 3/4 mile of the airport boundary is not the same thing as 3/4 mile walking distance from a station entrance. This is particularly true for LGA which is surrounded by a moat called Grand Central Parkway. There are only two bridges over this moat - one at 94th St and the other at 102nd St. The 102nd St bridge goes to a residential area.
We included all the M-zoned land around, where the rental cars are, and the hotels.
I find it difficult to believe that two dozen hotels and rental car agencies would employ 20,000 people. OTOH, Rikers Island is within 3/4 mile of the airport boundary. Were the inmates or their keepers included as potential passengers? :-)
And the extension, if it were built, could have included a stop in the industrial area west of the airport.
It might also kill that industrial area. It's low rent and permits marginal busineses to survive in a relatively safe area. A subway station might have raised rents. Also, most of it is within 3/4 walking distance of the Ditmars Blv station.
I wanted to see it extended out the other end, elevated along the water, into Flushing and Collge Point, to take some pressure off the Flushing Line...That entire extension shouldn't have cost more than $500 million
The easiest way to take pressure off the Flushing line is to add tail tracks to the Main St station. That should cost a lot less than $500 million. Of course, the TA spent $30 million to prevent the construction of tail tracks.
The empty area of the old Flushing Airport could have been used for park-n-ride lots.
The exit ramps on the Whitestone Expressway cannot handle the volume generated by the College Point Park. A massive park-n-ride facility would create chaos.
N.B. the area around Flushing Airport and the College Point Industrial Park used to be a garbage dump. I don't know, if they examined the area for toxic waste... :-)
"Were the inmates or their keepers included as potential passengers? :-)"
Rikers has a huge staff. It's not such a bad thing to offer them rail transportation.
"It might also kill that industrial area. It's low rent and permits marginal busineses to survive in a relatively safe area. "
Or allow higher-margin businesses to move in, raising the tax base.
"The easiest way to take pressure off the Flushing line is to add tail tracks to the Main St station. That should cost a lot less than $500 million. Of course, the TA spent $30 million to prevent the construction of tail tracks."
True, and I personally was distressed to see that happen (every once in a while you and I agree on something). However, at rush hour and at some other times, I have witnessed SRO crowds assemble on the 7 at Main Street. Were the 7 to arrive at Main Street with passengers already on it, one can just imagine the sardine packing that would occur further down the line, and the resulting chaos at 74-Broadway. There is a case to be made for introducing another line into the area.
Were the 7 to arrive at Main Street with passengers already on it, one can just imagine the sardine packing that would occur further down the line, and the resulting chaos at 74-Broadway.
The addition of tail tracks would not change the status of Main St as a terminal station. It would simply increase the capacity of the station from the present 24 tph to over 30 tph.
2/3's of the trains leaving Main St during the morning rush hour do not stop at 74th-Broadway. Half the trains stopping at 74th-Broadway during the morning rush hour do not stop at Main St. The addition of tail tracks would not change this.
There is a case to be made for introducing another line into the area.
A better case could be made for extending the existing line eastward. Most of the passengers at Main St arrive by bus. Extending the line eastward and re-aligning the bus routes to terminate at the newer stations would remove the concentration at Main St. It would also produce lower operating costs because the operating costs of buses is greater than that for trains, if both are opeating with reasonable loads. The previous argument against extending lines - loss of revenue from two fares - is no longer valid.
OK, I misread your previous post regarding tail tracks.
I also agree with your post here, though I would not oppose money spent for an additional line in the area.
I think extending the 7 eastward would be great - but while you are correct in that the concentration at Main Street would end, there is still a risk of overloading the line. I would expect the TA to reorganize bus service so that some buses which now feed Main Street would feed the new terminal.
But of course this is not in the works.
I also agree with your post here, though I would not oppose money spent for an additional line in the area.
There are logistical problems with locating two terminals "in the area". The situation in Jamaica comes to mind.
First, none of the buses had their routes shortened, when service was extended from 169th to 179th back in 1950.
Second, consider the present situation, when half the service was moved from Hillside to the new Archer Ave terminal. Many, but not all, buses had their routes lengthened to cover both 179th and Jamaica Center. This has caused more traffic in Jamaica and lengthened bus running times. The result has been higher operating costs.
I would expect the TA to reorganize bus service so that some buses which now feed Main Street would feed the new terminal.
I would not expect them to do anything logical. Consider that 22 bus routes from eastern Queens still terminate at the 165th St Bus terminal, even though there has not been service at the 168th St-Jamaica Ave Station (with an entrance at 165th St) for over two decades. These same routes avoid Archer-Parsons (Jamaica Center) which has had service for 14 years.
I find it difficult to believe that two dozen hotels and rental car agencies would employ 20,000 people. OTOH, Rikers Island is within 3/4 mile of the airport boundary. Were the inmates or their keepers included as potential passengers? :-)
No, the released inmates get dropped off by bus at the Queensboro Plaza station at 4 am and are given $3 MetroCards.
And the extension, if it were built, could have included a stop in the industrial area west of the airport.
It might also kill that industrial area. It's low rent and permits marginal busineses to survive in a relatively safe area. A subway station might have raised rents. Also, most of it is within 3/4 walking distance of the Ditmars Blv station.
It might also lead to higher value-added industries moving into the area and creating more jobs and tax revenues. New York has plenty of low-rent industrial space suitable for marginal businesses. East New York and the Bush Terminal area of Brooklyn come to mind, and I'm sure there are others.
Excellent post. Well argued. Bravo.
It might also lead to higher value-added industries moving into the area and creating more jobs and tax revenues. New York has plenty of low-rent industrial space suitable for marginal businesses. East New York and the Bush Terminal area of Brooklyn come to mind, and I'm sure there are others.
Most of the marginal business in Astoria are in the distribution sector not manufacturing. They need access to transportation and safety. This rules out East New York.
The Bush Terminal area buildings are an example of what happens when areas are improved for higher value-added industries. Such businesses use more expensive buildings. Consequently, when such buildings become vacant, because their original tenants outgrow these buildings or because their original tenants fail, it is more difficult to find a new tenant. Many times the area has to be reinvented - e.g. Long Island City. This takes time with many buildings becoming abandoned and being removed from the tax rolls.
New businesses are always failing and being created. Viable areas with low rents will attract new businesses and prevent long term decay.
The area of Astoria west of LGA is viable and works. It has undergone several generations of tenants without suffering any blights of idleness. Why "improve" it by making it upscale (at taxpayer expense) so that it would be more subject to a boom-to-bust cycle?
It [a new station] might also lead to higher value-added industries moving into the area and creating more jobs and tax revenues. New York has plenty of low-rent industrial space suitable for marginal businesses. East New York and the Bush Terminal area of Brooklyn come to mind, and I'm sure there are others.
Most of the marginal business in Astoria are in the distribution sector not manufacturing. They need access to transportation and safety. This rules out East New York.
You're right about the transportation issue. As far as safety is concerned, it seems as if ENY is becoming safer than it had been, although admittedly the area's reputation is bad. Of course, more industry should help ENY in this respect.
The Bush Terminal area buildings are an example of what happens when areas are improved for higher value-added industries. Such businesses use more expensive buildings. Consequently, when such buildings become vacant, because their original tenants outgrow these buildings or because their original tenants fail, it is more difficult to find a new tenant. Many times the area has to be reinvented - e.g. Long Island City. This takes time with many buildings becoming abandoned and being removed from the tax rolls.
Transportation may be an issue with Bush Terminal. It can be quite a hike to the nearest subway station. I'm not saying that the transportation issue is the sole reason for Bush Terminal's failure, for one thing the buildings look rather rundown nad unattractive, but it certainly counts for something.
New businesses are always failing and being created. Viable areas with low rents will attract new businesses and prevent long term decay.
The area of Astoria west of LGA is viable and works. It has undergone several generations of tenants without suffering any blights of idleness. Why "improve" it by making it upscale (at taxpayer expense) so that it would be more subject to a boom-to-bust cycle?
I basically agree. It still seems odd, however, that the Astoria industrial area has remained so downscale. The lack of a convenient subway station should not, in and of itself, account for that.
"The empty area of the old Flushing Airport could have been used for park-n-ride lots."
That's a very nice idea.
I get my facts right a lot more often than you do. And the termination of the LGA trolley has very little relevance to this conversation.
I get my facts right a lot more often than you do.
Just how many route miles are required to go from the Astoria Line to the LGA terminal areas? How many stations are proposed?
the termination of the LGA trolley has very little relevance to this conversation.
It was cited as an example of what I interpret to be your intellectual sloth. The date you gave was clearly incorrect. It was after the last city-run trolleys ceased operation. The trolley I showed used BQ&T livery - which would make it a city-run operation. If you are going to fabricate data - at least try to make it less obvious :-)
"There are two questions here. The first is to gauge how many would use a $1 billion extension to the N."
The N extension will cost about $700 million when all is said and done, and the money has already been put in the bank for it.
If you're going to conduct a serious debate, you need to be honest, Stephen, and not fabricate things...
The N extension will cost about $700 million when all is said and done, and the money has already been put in the bank for it.
Underestimating construction costs is a favorite planners' ploy. If you can find a company willing to underwrite a performance bond for delivery that price, I will take that cost seriously.
BTW, the LGA project will need yard storage. It is in the plans. Were the yard costs included in the $700 million, or is this a typical bait and switch scam?
Also, the 4 mile extension will require additional cars to keep the same schedule. The extension will add 20 minutes additional running time. That's 2 additional trains to keep a 10 minute headway. Estimated cost for 2 full trains at R143 prices is $240 million. Was that included?
If you're going to conduct a serious debate, you need to be honest, Stephen, and not fabricate things...
Can we agree that the cost figure should include every extra item that is required to keep the system operating at its present level? Or, do you propose to further reduce the level of spares and add unnecessary yards as an out of budget expense?
The cost of 20 R143's should have been $48 million, not the $240 million stated in the last post.
"Underestimating construction costs is a favorite planners' ploy. If you can find a company willing to underwrite a performance bond for delivery that price, I will take that cost seriously. "
And when you show me that you were actually in charge of a similar budget and what you accomplished with it, I'll consider your arguments to be less than comical. You love to criticize somebody else's projects; if you tell me you were chief flight engineer under Werner Von Braun and brought several Apollo missions in under budget (and supplied evidence of that), I might take you more seriously.
"Also, the 4 mile extension will require additional cars to keep the same schedule. The extension will add 20 minutes additional running time."
The revenue extension is only two miles long, and there are no plans, as far as I know, for an additional subway station except for the airport itself (I personally want more local neighborhood service, but...). Are you saying a new yard will be set up two miles beyond that?
"BTW, the LGA project will need yard storage. It is in the plans."
Interesting. I would like to hear the rationale behind the need for additional yard space. You yourself said that only two additional trainsets (20 60 foot cars, or 16 75 foot cars) are needed to reinforce N services. You don't need a whole new yard to store 20 cars, or even 30. Where is this yard plan?
And when you show me that you were actually in charge of a similar budget and what you accomplished with it,...
The criterion for evaluating a project should not be based on who proposes it but rather on what the project will accomplish.
The revenue extension is only two miles long, and there are no plans, as far as I know, for an additional subway station except for the airport itself (I personally want more local neighborhood service, but...). Are you saying a new yard will be set up two miles beyond that?
The revenue extension is over 4 miles long. You may verify this by tracing the route using inexpensive mapping software such as DeLorme's Street Atlas. From the "Fact Sheet" distributed at one of the public meetings (1998) This cooperative partnership has agreed to pursue direct, one-seat, subway access from Lower and Midtown Manhattan to LaGuardia Airport via a three to five mile extension or branch of New York City Transit's existing BMT Broadway-Astoria Subway Line ("N" service). Two route miles will not get you to LGA's terminal area.
Three stations are planned: Marine Air Terminal-Delta Shuttle; Central Terminal Building and US Air/Delta Terminal. All are within the airport but there would be 3 stations for the extension.
I would like to hear the rationale behind the need for additional yard space.
At one of the public meetings I raised the opeational question of adding and removing trains because the closest yard was 36th St-Brooklyn. One of the presenters showed me that there would be some yard facilities within the airport property for such moves. This was a private conversation and not part of the public record.
You yourself said that only two additional trainsets...
I was out of town, when I wrote that in haste. Let's be more accurate. Maximum service levels on the Astoria Line are 12 tph or 5 minute intervals. The average speed for NYCT operations is 18 mph. This means that an 8 mile round trip (it is closer to 10 miles) would take 26.7 minutes. This means that 5.3 (26.7/5) extra trainsets would be required to maintain current schedules. There is a 17% spares factor so 6 or 7 additional trainsets will be required. At $2.4 million/car this translates to 6 x 10 x 2.4 = $144 million for extra cars to provide this service.
I raised these questions in the context of your quoted $700 million estimate for the cost of this new extension. Questions have already been raised by others as to whether or not the money for this extension is now or ever was allocated and in the bank as you had stated. My question is whether the necessary additional cars or yard facilities are in your quoted estimate? The usual tactic to reduce projected costs is to shift secondary costs from the project to the general budget. Was such budgetary legerdemain performed in this case? Did you read the fine print? :-)
(The N extension will cost about $700 million when all is said and done, and the money has already been put in the bank for it.)
It turns out that money was a promise, and was never really there. What happened is that the Giuliani Administration proposed to eliminate funding for the MTA captial plan other than the $700 million by dedicating it to the LGA extension. The MTA has proposed using the $700 million to offset reduction in state funding, so state taxes could be sent elsewhere. The Bloomberg Administration has proposed eliminating city funding altogether, other than borrowed money for the Flushing Line on the tax increment financing plan.
So when the NY Times reported that $648 million in city money (not state money, not federal money) was set aside for this, that was just a crock?
(So when the NY Times reported that $648 million in city money (not state money, not federal money) was set aside for this, that was just a crock?)
At the time it was real money -- the expected future contributions by the city to the MTA capital plan. But with the MTA deep in debt and in financial crisis, it would just as soon use the money to pay for other things. And with the city in financial crisis, it would just as soon eliminate its contribution to the MTA capital plan -- the state did so back in 1995.
The Port Authority feigned interest to get approval for Airtrain, since it didn't want to collect a passenger facility charge at three airports and only provide passenger facilities at Newark. It never wanted to make the investment at LaGuardia, and never promised any money -- if it had, that money would have disappeared.
In a way, however, everything is just a crock, and has been ever since they borrowed so much money in the booming 1997-2001 period, when they should have been saving up. A good plan -- for those moving out of the city and state. The usual plan.
So when the NY Times reported that $648 million in city money (not state money, not federal money) was set aside for this, that was just a crock?
At the time it was real money
To (sort of) quote Everett Dirksen:
"A few hundred million here, a few hundred million there, next thing you know we'll be talking about real money."
"Notice how the N to LaGuardia has disappeared, without a replacement concept?"
Actually, I hadn't noticed. On what basis do you say the N extension has disappeared?
Wouldn't any effort at frequent and speedy bus service to LGA be better directed to the Q33, which has a relatively short, mostly residential route (before getting to the airport) by comparison?
Less chance of delays. Lower cost to increase the frequency. Also serves some fairly easy-to-get-to subway stations.
(Wouldn't any effort at frequent and speedy bus service to LGA be better directed to the Q33, which has a relatively short, mostly residential route (before getting to the airport) by comparison? Less chance of delays. Lower cost to increase the frequency. Also serves some fairly easy-to-get-to subway stations.)
The Q33 crosses so many major east-west arteries that it is a poor candidate. You simply couldn't break up signal timing on Northern Blvd every time a bus came along, or you'd back it up all the way to Shea Stadium.
The Q33 runs on narrow side streets.
The Q33 also doesn't have as many subway connections -- it completely misses the mainline IRT and it barely touches the BMT (via the R).
Your plan for your new LGA service is good but I say don't create it out of the M60. Instead, why not create a express bus route to run your LGA service to Jamaica, better yet just run it to JFK. It will be a X route and could run on the streets you mentioned above and would be very convenient. Extending the N to LGA would make it more better since you have customers from midtown & lower Manhattan that take the N to Astoria Blvd for the M60. Also, customers would save money from taking a yellow cab or livery cab and they pay NO MORE than $5 each way.
The route I came up with for the LGA service:
Starts at 125 St, runs via the M60 route but makes selected stops then makes a left on 31 St, R on Ditmars Blvd, goes through the terminals, L on 82 St, L on Astoria Blvd, R on Junction Blvd or 108 St, L on Queens Blvd, L on Archer Av, R on Brewer Blvd, L on Liberty Av, L on Van Wyck Expressway to JFK.
I may post the stops this new service would make in another post.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments, Holla back.
(Junction Blvd or 108 St, L on Queens Blvd)
I'd avoid Junction and 108th -- the back up like crazy. The route also misses Flushing, and thus people transferring from the Port Washington Line. I'd take Ditmars out of the airport, around to Northern Blvd into Flushing. I'd put a bus lane and give this express bus signal priority on Main St, Kissena, aned Parsons, then roll down Archer back to the Jamaica LIRR.
(Van Wyck Expressway to JFK.)
That's one road I never, ever go on. The traffic is too heavy. I'd expect JFK bound passengers to use the Airtrain.
One of the things which may be dooming the N to LGA is that domestic carriers have "discovered" the excess capacity out at JFK. Thus there is more interest in running airtrain cars direct to Midtown and Lower Manhattan than connecting to LGA. The fact that the Airtrain won't have regular outer boro subway riders is another appeal to the Brookfields of the world.
OO, I left out Flushing, silly me. Anyway, since Flushing is in the mix its good until Kissena Blvd, I'd try to avoid that but there may be no choice but to use Kissena, especially during the rush it does get backed up sometimes and the light signals are timed poorly so if these two things could be remedied then its OK. Well I guess if it went to JFK, it would probably be redunant but its a back up plan should it be warranted BUT remember, it's starting in upper Manhattan.
Nobody who rides the M60 is trying to get to Jamaica or to JFK. You're proposing an entirely new route for an entirely different group of prospective passengers.
(Nobody who rides the M60 is trying to get to Jamaica or to JFK. You're proposing an entirely new route for an entirely different group of prospective passengers.)
Not exactly. That's like saying no one who rides the White Plains Road line is trying to get to Nostrand Avenue. Actually, riders from both locations are trying to get to Midtown. The idea is for an express "bus rapid transit" line to replace both the Q48 and the M60 to LaGuardia.
You'd have service to/from Jamaica and Downtown Flushing so that LIRR (including the Port Washington Line), Flushing Line, Jamaica Avenue line, and Queens Blvd Line riders, as well as those transferring from various bus routes, could get to LaGuardia. On the other end, MetroNorth, Lexington Avenue, BMT Broadway and 8th Avenue riders could come in via the M60 route. Of course those traveling from Jamaica to Flushing, and from Flushing to Harlem, could use the bus too, though there are few such people.
In the past, I've suggested a much more modest modification to the M60: restrict its use to airport passengers. On trips to the airport, passengers would not be permitted to leave mid-route. On trips from the airport, passengers would not be permitted to board mid-route. This would probably only be necessary during peak periods. The M60 would become effectively a limited without eliminating any stops. The demand for an Astoria-Harlem route could be filled by a part-time standard local route, perhaps an extension of the M100.
I've always used the Q33 from LGA to the subway at Forest Hills. The ride is pretty short and doesn't take much time. I also never have to wait more than five minutes. I see no need for improvment. How better is the M60?
It varies. The M60 usually moves fast in Queens, since it makes limited stops on the GCP service road. Traffic at the Triboro Bridge is very variable, as is traffic on 125th Street. But during rush hour it's slow even in Queens.
It also depends on your destination. The Q33 connects to the 7 and E/F/R/V; the M60 connects to the N/W, 4/5/6, 2/3, A/B/C/D, 1/9, and most north-south Manhattan bus routes. Since I live in the Upper West Side, the M60 is the obvious choice.
(I've always used the Q33 from LGA to the subway at Forest Hills. The ride is pretty short and doesn't take much time. I also never have to wait more than five minutes. I see no need for improvment. How better is the M60?)
I tried the Q33 twice, and it was bad enough each time for me not to do it again. It took forever just to get out of the jam-packed intersection it stopped in. It took two light cycles to clear each major east-west route, and then made a stop. Even east-west side streets had signal priority over the Q33. And it was packed. And it was a 10-15 minute wait for the bus that goes through to the airport.
The M60 works well from Astoria -- if the Grand Central doesn't back up. But it is also a 10 to 15 minute wait, and the bus is already off schedule when it gets to you because of traffic on 125th and the Triboro.
The best experience I had was my one tip on the Q48 from 111th Street, but that was because I was lucky. It only runs once every 15 minutes at best, usually once every 20. And 108th Street in Corona isn't exactly a speedway.
In summary, none of them are good enough, so if the N to LGA isn't going to be built any time soon, or built at all, they should at least upgrade the bus service.
The bus situation is one reason why I fly into/out of Newark when I can. It's often cheaper too.
I'd like to see an express bus from the subway stations on the M60 route straight to LGA. No stops but subway stations and airport. I'd pay more for it too!
(I'd like to see an express bus from the subway stations on the M60 route straight to LGA. No stops but subway stations and airport. I'd pay more for it too!)
Yeah, that's what I want. But I'd also extend it down to the Flushing and LIRR Port Washington lines in Flushing, and then down to Jamaica, so it could carry passengers to/from LGA (and Downtown Flushing and Harlem and Jamaica) from two directions. Express stops only.
How about this approach for non-road-based access to LGA?
1. AirTrain connects the LGA terminals and rental car lot. This is valuable in its own right because people do transfer at LGA.
2. Now there is easy access to the ferry dock at LGA, and 10 times the demand that existed for the ferry when it was just the Delta Shuttle Ferry. Run a ferry to Wall St, E 34th, AND a new dock just outside the Rosevelt Island subway entrance. Coordinate ferry departures with AirTrain arrivals at the Marine Terminal.
Except during Nor'easters (or when the East River freezes over) you have access to LGA not encumbered by traffic.
If money became available, the AirTrain could be extended over the Grand Central Parkway to the Shea Stadium and Jamaica stations (thus also connecting it to JFK).
This might even provide a real justification for running the Q via 63rd and Queens Blvd (9 Qs, 9 Fs, 12 Es).
According to the MTA website, NYCT will start renovation work on Aves, H, J, M, U and Neck Road stations sometime this year. All that's left now is 7th Ave, that is not on the list yet.
While Stilwell gets a face lift, West 8th St and Neptune Ave (on the Culver), will get a rehab too. Smart work by NYCT that any station that is closed for a long period gets the makeover.
YES! Our Brighon Line is going to look so good once all of the stations are done. BTW, what about Church Av and 7 Av? Those stations needs a makeover too. So we have Newkirk Av, West 8 St, Atlantic & Dekalb currently in rehab and now the stations listed above is in the works, that's cool, the famous Brighton line will be looking better than ever :-D.
Church was re-done in the mid 80's.
Given the current finacial situation the mata should reconcider renovtion work on Aves, H, J, M, U and Neck Road station.
Although every station could be improved, there is nothing physically wrong with these stations
One of the biggers reasons for the escculating budget gap is the increased debt load which will rise as high as 26 billion. THe service on this debt will tripple last years amount.
The money could be spent better somewhere else.
For those who don't know my home station is Ave U / Kings Highway.
Aves, H, J, M, U and Neck Road station have all recieved new floor planking and aluminum roofs a few years ago. Any addtioal improvements would be purely cosmetic in nature. The only improvement at ave u I would like to see is to reopen the exit at the front end of the coney island bound platform. All that needs to be done is a iron maden installed at street level and new plywood planking at station level
Cool, another Brighton man. I believe the renovations would be for cosmetics as well. If they're getting rid of the aluminum sheets and its getting a similar look to the Broadway el, that would be good b/c seeing the stations on our Brighton [and all el stations] with that makes it look so plain & ugly. My home station which is Newkirk Av, is currently under renovation so I'm wondering how that comes out.
From another Brighton man,
I also think as a whole the Brighton Line looks very sharp. In my opinion it does not need any more renovations. If any line needs the renovation, it's the Sea Beach line.
Its strictly cosmetics the way I see it and I don't think Aves H, J, M, U & Neck Rd needs it either but hey making it better looking would be good. I agree that the Sea Beach does in fact need renovations, some of the stations are in sorry shape.
My station when I am there is where my Grandmother is off of, and that is Avenue J. J looks very good, and I can't see any type of renovation that has to take place except if any ADA requirements for elevators need to go there.
I praised that MTA is doing fantastic in getting job done all at once. Before the reopening Southside Manny B, while the NYCDOT is doing reconstruction on the Southside Manny B. MTA also reconfigured the Lower Canal Street Station and Southbound JMZ platform. This is what I called the real job well done.
I think that the MTA has been pretty irresponsible in having such an extensive capital plan given that the Transportation Bond Act was voted down in 2000 and that the City and State are not putting in much funding. The whole City or State pays for capital projects funded by general obligation bonds. We pay back MTA bonds in the operating budget.
We need new cars. Many stations are in desperate need of work. But some, like these Brighton stations, could get away with much more modest rehabs than is done in standard upgrades.
…from Geoff Marshall’s site.
Geoff Marshall was the subject of a recent documentary on British TV, which discussed his (failed) attempt to beat the record for travelling the entire Tube system.
Very funny, yet very familiar too. The British know their irony, don't they?
My NY addition - carry umbrellas horizontal so that you can poke anyone who happens to be too close. Following one too close up the stairs can make do as a quick & cheap vasectomy too.
Thanks for the laugh!
Question for my New Jersey neighbors (I'm a Long Island resident):
For a person staying at the Ramada Plaza Hotel at Raritan Center, 3050 Woodbridge Ave., Edison, NJ, what is the best station to use for train service to/from NYC on a Sunday? Car is available to drive to the NJT station. Is it Metropark, Metuchen, Edison, or Woodbridge? Looking for station with most train service and availability of safe parking (no problem paying a parking fee).
Thanks to all who answer.
Well, for one thing, Woordbridge is a North Jersey Coast Line stop, not a Northeast Corridor stop...and any of the other three might be good...Edison station may not be a good choice, though you might be going to the city of Edison...
MetroPark is a good choice due to the garages. MetroPark can be reached by Exit 11 of the Turnpike to the Parkway North. Take the Parkway to the MetroPark Station Exit. 99% of the NECL(North East Corridor Line) trans stop at metro Park.
Edison Station (Plainfield Aveneu and Centrak Avenue in Edison) has limited parking and Metuchen has metered parking- also limited.
One the NJCL (North Jersey Coast Line) there is Woodbridge but MetroPark is the best choice and has the most parking- indoors except for the roof.
Metro Park,
Tons of parking inside the huge parking garages (I think it's $2 a day), and lots of NJ Transit and Amtrak train service. Safe corporate park area, right off the Parkway.
Andy:
Metuchen is the closest station to Raritan Center. The station runs over Main Street, which is County Road 531.
From the Metuchen station, you would take 531 South to the end which is County Road 514. You make a left onto 514 East, and about 1/2 mile down is the entrance to the Raritan Center.
On a Sunday, there's no problem with parking.
This is an R32 that does not have the rolsign displaying the route (The one that would read [E] Queens Blvd 8 Avenue). I saw it on the Queensbound Express platform at Roosevelt Av this morning from my seat on the F train. The sign on the interior looked like this...
(Jamaica Center)
(World Trade Center)
(Manhattan)
That's rather interesting. I didn't know they had boroughs on the route destination signs on the side roll signs....
It possibly was a north or south terminal roll that was placed in the route roll for some reason. The sign might have been set for "Canal St Manhattan" but "Manhattan" was the only visible word.
Excellent hour long documentary on the history and operation of the first underground railroad in the world. I'm still fascinated by their closed loop traction power supply system. They have a fourth as well as a third rail!
Thanks for the info!!! It's 6:58 pm now, I got 2 minutes.
-AcelaExpress2005
Question:
http://www.nycsubway.org/img/i6000/img_6675.jpg
In this picture, you see two trains on the Fulton line connector near Atlantic Ave., the train on the left is gate cars, obviously, but isn't the train on the right Standards? I thought Standards couldn't run on the eastern end of the Fulton.
I believe the structure all the way into the Hinsdale St. station was upgraded to dual-contracts standards. IIRC, there's a middle track through this station and down the curve into Atlantic Ave. Here's a pic. Perhaps the standard is laid up on it:
Nice shot this one! Is it from somewhere on the site? Is this location on the el just east of Atlantic Ave main station and south of the platform to be demolished?
and J Train Tony, I've seen the picture you're referring to and wondered about it as well. I do remember hearing/reading that the outer end of the Fulton street el was upgraded as Chris R27-R30 has said here.
The outer end of the Fulton St. el, the portion above Liberty Ave. used by A trains today, was a Dual Contracts extension and built to subway specs right from the start.
I thought those stations were built before the Dual Contracts...I thought that they were UPGRADED during Dual Contracts. If they were built to Dual Contract standards they wouldn't have been so worried about weight when they designed the Multi's....they were concerned about weight when they built the Multi's, which was in 1925..AFTER the Dual Contracts.
If I remember correctly the El east of Hindsdale av reverted back to the original unimproved el. the Fulton el originally ended somewhere around the Brooklyn/Queens county line. Dual contracts atarted at the original termination point on Liberty Av and built the existing El out to Lefferts Blvd (now the A line) So what they never able to do before the takeover of the IND was make inprovements in between Hindsdale av and where the dual contracts picked up the line at the county line
If you want to see where the old Fulton St. El ended, go to any Subway sandwich shop. Their walpaper has old IRT, BMT and IND maps. The BMT map is definitely pre-dual contracts, and shows the Fulton St. line ending at City Line (Grant Ave.) and what is now the Jamaica (J,Z) line ending at Cypress Hills.
-- Ed Sachs
I think a good part of the old Filton Subway was dual contracts standards. Almost the whole thing from Downtown Brooklyn to Atlantic was rebuilt, and of course the part still in use at the end was dual contract standards. The only part not rebuilt was the part from Atlantic Ave to womewhere before the eastern end that is still in use.
The unrebuilt portion was that portion between Atlantic Ave and The old Grant Ave el station. It was the same portion that was razed after the IND connection to the el was completed in 1956. The old style el ended east of the Grant Ave el station but west of Hudson St.
Yes, Chris, you're right. Hinsdale is a new station, it didn't exist before the rebuilding. Things in the area were much different before. The junction with the Canarsie line and the Fulton line was at grade, not a flyover. The original route of the Canarsie line is the sharp curves that the Manhattan bound track follows today. Right at that second curve before it straightens out to go to Atlantic Ave. was the junction with the Fulton line. A tower existed here and just north of this junction was another station called Eastern Parkway (2 tracks, island platform). Back on the Fulton line where Hinsdale St. was, before there was Hinsdale St., there was a large yard on the south side of the mainline. The only reason I knew this before was because of the "Brooklyn Elevated" book and its track maps inside. Other than the book I had no information or pictures until a friend at work explained everything. It was called AB Yard or Alabama Yard. It was fairly large, elevated on timbers and in two sections. The yard was split in half by Williams Ave. It had a regal looking tower on the north side of the mainline. The yard turned out toward Grant Ave. and had a relay track for trains from the other direction. When the Fulton line was rebuilt from east of the new Hinsdale St. station to Nostrand Ave., AB Yard was eliminated, Eastern Parkway was eliminated and the flyovers with the Canarsie line built as well as the Atlantic Ave. complex. The area at Hinsdale St. had 3 tracks while the yard was there. The south track was the relay track for the yard and the middle track was the Grant Ave. bound track. The mainline track from the middle swung to the south side of the structure past the yard relay track's bumping block before it reached its next station, Pennsylvania Ave. which had an island platform. With the rebuilding, the former yard relay track became the mainline and the middle track became a long lay up track from south of Atlantic to the bumping block just outside of Pennsylvania Ave. There are pictures around with Standards and R10's up there and they are in fact lay ups. I wonder though how much of the structure between Hinsdale and Pennsylvania was not upgraded and still continued to be used for lay ups?
From what you describe, they would have had to have rebuilt a portion of the el on Pitkin west of Pennsylvania.
I was a thru passenger on the el many times in the 1940's, and I did use Atlantic Ave station. The nearest station to the west that I was familiar with was Crescent St. It was always my impression that the entire structure on Pitkin Ave was the old lattice work structure, and the dual contracts rebuilding did not include anything on Pitkin at all.
The AB Yard was gone before my time, and I regret not having seen it. Manhattan Junction was gone too. That must have really been a station. the entre structure at Eastern Parkway (Broadway Junction) obviously had a completely different look to it.
Correction!!
That one sentence should read...
The nearest station to the east
I'm sure that some of you guys are model railroaders like myself. While I have my NY Metro area commuter system in partial full force, I need to find some items in order to complete my system. I finished installing catenary wire for my mini NEC line, but I need to purchase some moveable bridges. While I have a Bachman Bascule bridge( renamed Brielle for my mini NJCL) are verticle lift and swing bridges available for HO scale? And if yes, where can I purchase them? Either shops or web sites. Any help I would extremely appreciate?
Thanks.
I know Walthers provided a swing bridge just a short while ago in conjunction with a Bascule bridge (someday I'll get mine, and it will become the Ship Canal BN ex-GN bridge) and a set of port related items including a car barge, ferry landing, piers and a railroad tug.
A search of Walthers.com should turn up the swing bridge, they usually leave stuff in production for years. As for a lift bridge, I don't know, I haven't seen one, but it's been a good year since I grabbed a Model Railroader. It might be possible to adapt a couple pre-made trusses from another bridge kit into a lift bridge.
Thanks.
Thanks.
One of the European manufacturers - I think it was Pola, but I'm not certain - had a very German/Austrian-looking vertical lift bridge in their line back in the '80s. It didn't actually operate, but all of the detail was there. I don't know if it is still available.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This image is described as the 3rd Ave el at 210th St.
This is actually the section over Mosholu Parkway looking north.
At this point the el structure on Webster ave passes over Mosholu Parkway which in turn passes over Webster Ave. The original phota appears to be taken from the roof of the apartment house on Botonical Square (at Botonical Garden Station). Frisch Field would be below and right of the El.
I believe that this section of el structure rivaled or surpassed the height of 110th St curve structure on the 9th Ave El.
I lived on Decatur Ave (1 block west of Webster), just north of Mosholu Parkway.
Thanks for the great image.
Care to actually provide the image you speak of? I'd like to see it! : D
Look in the car photo section of New York Subway Resources web site.
Heh, I already looked at the pic that's offered in another reply of this thread. Thanks anyway.
Nope, that's definatley the 3rd Ave el somewhere on the Webster Ave viaduct
Sad... they tore it down... Nice view and everything... Thanks!
N bwy
You don't, by any chance, live at 3165 Decatur, do you?
Peace,
ANDEE
3055 Decatur
Today is our anniversary (36 years).
My wife asked me what we were going to do today, last week.
I told her. "If we are lucky, I would be working today."
We did get to go to church this morning in between my marathon work weekend (36 out of 48 hours).
Peace and happiness to everyone.
I ducked into a waiting W train to warm up, but forgot that the R68's only get warm while they are moving due to the heat generated by the faulty wheel bearings.
Anyway, while I was in the car, I did notice one of the MTA's new programs to reduce costs and help pare down the multi-billion dollar deficit.
Car Cleaning Cost Cutting
Huh? Oh my god! Those are clearly fare beaters! No Metrocard on 'em! Why this musy be why the MTA has taken the plunge...
They're less than 44" tall.
I'm sure they're old enough in pigeon years to pay the fare...
Paul, how's that fresh air vent that you cut into your R-9 cab?
New MTA feature, wrong one described though. That's the new "meals on wheels" program ... for one extra swipe of the card under the seat, a little panel drops down, you take the pigeon, put it into the handy tray under the seat, in about three minutes, the bell goes "ding" and your squab is ready. Serves three. MMM-mmm-Mta good. :)
Heeheehee, this is a all new low for what the MTA is doing to cut costs ;-).
better than the sock in your mouth that youi need to do !
(Note to Dave: This pic's location is incorrectly stated as 169th St in Queens. It's actually 167th St. in the Bronx.)
It's the Boeing contracted (St Louis Car - Subcontractor) State of the Art Car (SOAC).
Phil Hom
SMEE - oldies but goodies
Come visit it at the Seashore Trolley Museum next summer!
built from the shell of an R44 the soac's ran on the A,D,N, Boston Red line, Chicago Skokie Swift, Septa broad st line?, and Patco
Wow, I cannot believe that a 75' car would make the turns on PATCO Bridge Line section between Broad St Camden and 9-10 Locust in Philadelphia. The 67' cars squeal around those curves, it's hard to believe that a car 8 feet longer could take the same route without scraping some tunnel lining off. It's easy to see why in chicago it only ran on the Skokie swift, any other route and it would have had to negotiate the loop (I suppose the two Subways have similar restrictions at some point, right?).
What exactly was so state of the art about these cars? They were basically R44s, right? Did they ever get to get up to 80mph? Did they have some kind of advanced propulsion system? Did they incorperate some kind of advanced controller? I really don't see what made them state of the art as compared to the R44. It would have been nice to see a few more cities go for high speed commuter subways like BART, Metro and PATCO (or at least a route or two more), utilizing SOAC style cars, albeit with walk-through capability, but sadly it seems most subways are capped at 55, at most.
It's an operational and liability issue; technology isn't the problem.
Truthfully, all existing NYC rolling stock could be set up to do 65 mph in the tunnels. The R44 and R46 were designed to do 70 and higher; the R68 can do it, though Amrail's literature says 55 is the official top speed. The R62 can probably do it; the R32 can do it. The Redbirds don't count because they're all headed for the scrap heap or the reefs anyway. The new technology cars (142, 143) can certainly handle it, even with "B" non-cab cars having only two motors.
In the 1970s 65-mph running was tried in the regulated speed control system, on Queens Blvd. However the prewar signal system couldn't handle this, resulting in a rear-end collision at Fifth Avenue. I know trains don't run at high speeds there, but I believe it had something to do with gap maintenance and acceleration/deceleration rates being beyond the signal system at the time.
I believe you are correct.
Introducing higher speeds is possible. I hope the CBTC experiment on the L subway also includes setting higher speed limits.
I don't think the L line is a candidate for higher speed limits, owing to curves and grades. However a little more speed on Eighth avenue would be OK with me!
The timer on the express track heading northbound bypassing 23 St makes no sense, that should be lifted. As for CPW, the once glorious run has been altered quite a bit. Also, bring more speed on the 4 Av express track heading southbound by removing some of those timers; local trains FROM Pacific St usually catch up to them at 36 St and thus saves almost NO time.
You must have read my mind. I was thinking about that timer today, it's been there slowing trains down on straight, level track at 23 St since 1980! What were they thinking! BTW is it just me getting older or were the trains just faster back then ,too?
Its not rapid transit as you guys once saw it. Nowadays its 'Crapid transit' here in the subway system since its slowing down by the day with new timers & grades popping up. I still don't get why that was put there to begin with, it looks stupid seeing a C or E stop AT THE STATION, discharge/board passengers & leaves 23 St and arrives at 34 St BEFORE the A does, just silly and yes it HAS happened. Some of these timers really need to be lifted IMO.
Gee..and I thought the object of rapid transit was to be rapid. (LOL)
The signals and the grade/speed timers prevent faster speeds too. Maybe they should raise the top speed on some rolling stock, especially cars on the A. The R62/62A top speed is 55mph, the R32 is 55mph, and the R44 & R46 WAS designed to go 70 mph but the collision at 5 Av caused speed limits to be decreased to 50mph since it is said that the signals cannot give proper protecion past 50mph. On the newer cars the top speed is 60-65 mph.
"The R62/62A top speed is 55mph"
Officially. The horsepower-to-weight ratio is enough for faster than that. You are correct, though, that signals, timers and other things affect what kind of performance is allowed.
Especially the stupid one at 23 St on the n/b express track on the 8 Av line (A). A trains should be capped at 60-65mph IMO since it has long stretches between stops to/from North Conduit Av and for the CPW express runs. Lifting some timers all over the system would cut travel times by a few minutes and make a commuters train ride more pleasant. Especially on the Willy-B but since the disaster they don't want to take that chance to lift some of them I assume. All spots that have sharp turns or steep hills should stay with timers but then again certain ones should be lifted.
State of the Art Cars
This is the SOAC car running in NYC in 1974. It visited 5 or 6 different cities and its purpose was to experiment state of the art cars in mass transit for the future.
In case nobody heard. Yesterday, the 16th of Jan, the 5:29 Huntington suffered a brake failure that caused an unrecoverable BIE and stranded the train at the platform for about 45 minutes with numerous trains piling up behind it. The LIRR says that it delayed approx. 22 trains for an average of 22 minutes, but many peole said that they were delayed from reaching their final destinations for up to two hours. A near riot ensued when the LIRR personel manning the info booth refused to answer questions regarding the nature of the problem and if and when ppl's trains would be ready to leave. The MTA police were called in, but no arrests were made. Further problems resulted when dozzens passengers bound for points past Babylon were met by a minubus with 22 seats. The LIRR says that they are looking into the incident.
Ladies and Gentlemen: Because of the extreme commuter violence about to occur, we must ask that women, children and senior LIRR management leave the theatre for this performance. THAT's what happened: No one from senior staff was communicating with the Ops people so no one had accurate info for the commuters. The LIRR has a history of this. BTW this "incident" took place NEXT to their headquarters, but all the 9-to-5'ers were gone.
Only the LIRR could make such a mess out of what should have been a relatively minor problem. Worthless incompetents. None of them would last a minute in a non-taxpayer-subsidized industry.
None of them would last a minute in a non-taxpayer-subsidized industry.
As I remember, the LIRR preferred to kill their customers outright, when they were operating in a free market before they went bankrupt in the 1950's.
A brake pipe rupture, as train problems go, are relatively easy to resolve. You sectionalize the train - get a good section - cut out the brakes in the bad section - and move the train out of the way. I've been to enough Brake Pipe Ruptures (essentially what the problem discribed was) to know that's how it works. There is one exception to that rule. That's when the failure occurs in an area where you have plenty of help. When it comes to help, more is less. I'm sure there were several hands too many stirring the soup.
Would it have been too much to tell the irate passengers: "Look, the pipes supplying air to the brakes ruptured; we're taking out the bad cars and putting your train back together. Hang in there, go to the shop downstairs and get a coke and come back up in 15 minutes."
"Deep Impact" Robert Duval to NASA about destroying the asteroid before it strikes earth. Houston, we can teach or we can do - your choice".
1,500 to 2,000 people on that train plus all the other people being delayed. how many times do you think that question would have to get answered before the public would be satisfied. When a train is stuck it's very hard to handle public relations and move the train at the same time. Trust me - I've been there.
I've always hated the "dumb masses" theory. I agree, tell us riders the truth about what's happening. One thing on the subway that used to kill me was "Congestion". Used to hear the conductors use that word constantly to "explain" delays.
Just tell us riders what's going on. Those of us who get it will get it.
I agree. More information is better than less. If nothing else, telling people what is going on in the system gradually teaches them about it, which makes them appreciate it more.
Look at NFL games. The refs used to say the "play is challenged" and "after further review, the play stands as called." Now they explain what the challenge is about, and what it is they saw on screen. People like it better.
I think what Dude was talking about was having to provide the information over and over. On the other hand, if you do it once on an intercom, the clueless can ask others on the platform. The only exception is if just a few people are on the platform, then after additional delays a lot of people are on the platform. Then you have to announce again.
My favorite is when a train stops in the tunnel and the conductor say there's a red signal ahead of us. Well of course, that's why the train stopped.
Of course, there you have one audience, all hearing the same message - unless your car has one of those intercoms that sound like Charlie Brown's school teacher. 8-)
The best announcement is always ended with " thank you for you patience & co-operation" as if you standing on a crowded train, in the tunnel. under the river, gives you an option for anything else?
Case in point:
Friday AM I'm at Brentwood waiting for the 7:06 Local to Brooklyn. The 6:58 had just departed when the LIRR announced that the 7:06 (train 2019) had been cancelled. Normally, train #2021 does not stop in Brentwood, however, the LIRR announced that #2021 would stop at Brentwood, Hicksville, Mineola and Jamaica to accomodate all of the passengers who normally take 2019. Usually, 2021 does not stop between Bethpage and penn Sta. Simple, right? Don't ask.
Now that's a simple service substitution. Try explaining a major breakdown. You may understand because you are a train buff. However, the majority of LIRR riders wouldn't understand moving a train with a brakepipe rupture even if Ernie were to explain it to Burt.
AMEN!!!!! It is not easy in any way!!
"Deep Impact" Robert Duval to NASA about destroying the asteroid before it strikes earth. "Houston, we can teach or we can do - your choice".
1,500 to 2,000 people on that train plus all the other people being delayed. how many times do you think that question would have to get answered before the public would be satisfied. When a train is stuck it's very hard to handle public relations and move the train at the same time. Trust me - I've been there.
As reported in Newsday:
Near Riot As LIRR Delayed
I for one had to wait for a connection at Jamaica when the 4:19 train to Port Jeff broke down in Line 3 from Penn Station. After restarting, the train broke down again just before it arrived at Jamaica. After waiting again for 15 minutes, they got the train restarted to get into the station. The conductor informed us that a new train was being made up, but instead, we were put onto the next train, the 4:49 from Penn to Port Jeff, and that train was massively crowded. Let's hope that the LIRR can do something to reduce this problem in the near future.
Fourth times the charm? See the attached link to a story today in the Courier Post. This is sudden, has there been talk previously about this?
http://www.courierpostonline.com/news/southjersey/m011703m.htm
Why are they calling it a "hi-speedline." That sounds stupid. It should be a "high speed line."
That's some old DRPA thing, probably dating back to the opening of it in 69, perhaps to contrast it to the old Bridge Line or something. Some signs and literature still say Hi-Speed Line on them, undoubtedly some of them are not 40 some years old, as that phrase has become their motto or nickname to a certain extent. For a few years after I moved here I thought the Hi-Speed Line and PATCO were two different things, it wasn't until I rode it that I realized they were two different things.
I really enjoy riding it, the cars are smooth and fast, theres no *Bing Bong* at stations, just a ringing bell, and the announcements are made by the T/O, thus they're usually short and to the point. Plus, as compared to other rapid transit systems, it is a high speed system, especially the eastbound run from Broadway Camden to Ferry Ave camden, paralleling I-676.
For those of us who use it, it is simply the Hispeedline, one word, or the Speedline for short.
I've ridden it. Not recently though. It is neat. Even "Hi-Speed Line" is 100% better than the way the reporter wrote it "Hi-Speedline."
"Lindenwold Hi-Speed Line" is how Bill Vigrass writes it, so that's the "official" name as far as I'm concerned.
And when you leave it's called the bye-speedline.
My WeatherBug is reading 12 degrees above right now. Do they still "rock" the cars in subway yards on extremely cold nights so as to prevent freezing/icing? I know they used to do this years ago.
Naa! They use mostly classical music these days.
:0)
Nope - now they get maintained, instead.
The unrealized potential of the Rockaways is amazing. A lot of empty land fronting the Atlantic Ocean connected by electric rail transit all within the city limits is....just sitting there.
Another bad effect of not re-opening the LIRR Rockaway Branch. Direct Manhattan "super-express" trains surely would have caused more than a few developers eyes to gleam.
I still don't understand why all that BEACHFRONT property has lain there vacant for almost FIFTY years. The land was available BEFORE the IND was extended to Rockaway, BEFORE the demographics of Far Rockaway changed radically (just in case some real estate people cite changing demographics as a reason not to build. Hogwash, but anyway...) and ALL of it was undeveloped. The IND expansion should have triggered a housing boom, but it never really got past Beach 38th Street on the oceanfront. Housing projects were built, but none of them is on the water.
Casino gambling was talked about in the 1970s when the R-44s began to arrive, but, again, nothing. SUBWAY ACCESS and still developers balked at building hotels ON THE OCEAN. They left $755 MILLION (in today's dollars, The Apple, Vol. 21, #16) of economic development just SITTING there. The TA of the day actually talked about a JFK-express style super express service just to support casinos on the Rock.
The Rockaways are geographically remote from the rest of the city, but then, so is Staten Island, and they just got a new stadium with SIRT service. So whither the Rockaways...?
Elected officials who represent the area have to start making deals with others to bring home a little pork...
I was told the reason why they aren't building over there.. because each year a spices of birds lay their eggs there.. and to build would mean leading to the extinction of the bird spices.
N Bwy
Believe it or not, more than a few developers' eyes have started gleaming.
Rockaway is in the beginning of a huge housing boom. Within the last four years, there have been over 400 new market-rate houses built throughout the Rockaways, with another 600 houses currently under construction and approximately another 3,000 houses in the planning stages. They are asking for anywhere between $300,000 to over $500,000 for the houses currently under construction and in the planning stages.
The city as well as politicians have a lot at stake here (financially and politcal respectively). With all that money the city plans to make over these housing deals, during a time when they are screaming "we need money", you can bet that they will do just about anything to make sure this is going to happen.
If interested, you can find out more by visiting these websites:
www.arvernebythesea.com
www.ocean-pointe-at-bayswater.com
www.farrockaway.com/nytimes.html
Have you seen those ho;uses?
They're deathtraps!!!
Cheap material. The cheapest.
In the short term, Arverne BTS will be good. But 20 years from now, it will be bad. Just look at the 38th st. area near the firehouse.
BTW: Guess which part of the city got screwed out of the olympics, although water is readily available???
THAT's RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Aw c'mon now. Were you really surprised by this? You sound like someone who either live in Rockaway or have a lot of knowledge about it. You know we get screwed out of everything. LOL
I'm still pissed that Rockaway got screwed out of Playland in the eighties by the insurance companies and bloodsucking lawyers. :-(
Ditto. I'll take it further. We got screwed out of about 3 to 4 miles of beaches for some damn birds.
Speaking of birds, what about all the jet planes that fly over the Rock EVERY DAY since 1958? Even if some of them now make "noise abatement turns" many of 'em are still rattling the dishes in Far Rockaway on final to JFK. When I was a kid I SWORE I saw a set of landing gear pass my bedroom window--whish was on the second floor of a two-family house. I was watching Arnines on the el a block away and the main gear obstructed my view. (LOL)
Right after 9/11, the planes started flying even lower than usual. There was plenty of times when an airplane passed so close that all of the car alarms went off.
Ah yes, the Piping Plover....a bird that is so small you can't really get a good look at it unless they're standing still. Some eviro-pain-in-the-butt got the 'ear' of local politicos to get an entire stretch of beach closed to humans but 'free range' for some minor population of bird....ugh!
Rhode Island's only nude beach, Moonstone, was also closed for the piping plovers. (I've heard it's feathers-optional...)
True dat.
You know who's gonna move there? The people formerly in the Far Rock projects. And there's no way I'm going there. Hell, in the seaside houses (105th) I got chased by 5 kids my age with knives. Those new houses are all shit. Rockaway keeps getting screwed like a 5 cent hore. By everyone. (GBL, MTA, TBTA, etc.)
Yup, just one big orgi. LOL
O hell yea.
Bring the kids down for the day!!!!
We got guns, we got pot, we got crack hores.
Fun, Fun, Fun.
Have you seen those ho;uses?
They're deathtraps!!!
Cheap material. The cheapest.
In the short term, Arverne BTS will be good. But 20 years from now, it will be bad. Just look at the 38th st. area near the firehouse.
BTW: Guess which part of the city got screwed out of the olympics, although water is readily available???
THAT's RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/Alleys/rockawayalleys/rockbeach.html
Heading from Queens Blvd line to Jay St, Brooklyn, I deviated from my usual transfer to the F at Roosevelt and stayed on the V I got so I can talk to my friends for a few more stops. Anyway, I figured on transferring to the F at Bway Lafayette to continue my trip into Brooklyn since the V only goes to 2nd Ave. However, when I got into W 4th, I decided to get off, and so long as the F doesn't come in first, to take the Grand St shuttle one stop since I have not been on it yet, and its a stretch of track I haven't travelled on in a while {I used to all the time.} While waiting for it to leave, an announcement is made that due to a stalled train at York St {probably the one I would've got had I made the transfer at Roosevelt to begin with, so good thing I didn't} all F trains are going through the Cranberry A/C tubes. I heard that you can see if an A/C will come in upstairs before the F by looking at the lights in the tower in the front of the F/V platform, but I don't know how to do that. I decide to go upstairs to see if there was anything around. I was anxious enough to want to get to Jay as soon as I can. I get up there just in time to see an E leave. I actually wanted it so I can take it to Canal and DEFINITELY get the first train to Jay. Anyway, the announcement of the F reroute kept repeating itself. But then it said, "THE F train will run on the A/C." So there was an F coming in downstairs? Quick as a flash I was down there and on it. But I think a C came in upstairs b/c our F had holding lights for at least five minutes. Plus, when people heard the train wasn't running on the F line, they got off thinking the next train was. The conductor said, "The next train will probably go through" rather than "Take this to Jay and go back w/ a Manhattan bound F." Now, if I stayed on my V to Bway Lafayette, I'd be stuck. True, I could've taken a 6 to a 4/5 to Borough Hall, but it'd be out of my way. So always, if you have options as to where to change trains change where you have connections. ie change from a B/D to a Queens F/V at 42nd, not 47th/50th.
I was on a Brooklyn Bound N train to Lawerence St/Metrotech. When we get to whitehall, a transit cop gets on, and I hear on his radio that a southbound(brooklyn) bound F train went BIE at york st. Thats what I heard, so thats why you had problems.
For future reference, the switches at West 4th are south of the station. Your F couldn't have come in on the upper level.
I think Flyer said the F was running on the A/C line. I couldn't tell because his posting was long and unbroken.
I know that the switches are south of the station. It's just that it b/c my V was slow going into W 4th b/c the C/R said there was a train at W 4th I figured it was an F so the next F would be a while and that an A or C would definitely come in first. And I was so much in a rush that I was willing to run up and down the stairs for a few seconds extra into Jay St.
Today it is part one of the Hammond Local.
This is going to be an unusual piece as it deals with the presence of the Louisville & Nashville in Northwest Indiana and how their presence waned. It will also explain how the MoPac assumed operations over an open and active rail line. This transaction was quite unusual for its time being long before the short line and regional railroad movement of the mid and latter 1980’s. There is going to be a considerable amount of background and history involved to tell this story. In other words, I am going to have to go a long way to get there from here. It will take multiple columns to accomplish the telling of this entire story otherwise, it would be extremely long. So let’s begin this journey.
In 1967, the Missouri Pacific was given approval to take 40% control of the Chicago & Eastern Illinois Railroad. This transaction was fought for several years by the Illinois Central, Monon, Cotton Belt (St. Louis Southwestern) and Louisville & Nashville Railroads. In the end though, the L&N gained from this takeover while the other contesting roads were turned away with nothing. The following year the L&N was conveyed the Evansville Division of the C&EI as a condition of Missouri Pacific’s acquisition of the line. This gave the L&N a badly needed direct route into Chicago. The Evansville Division included all trackage south of Woodland Jct to Evansville, IN including all branches. MoPac had operated this line as the Evansville Division including its own timetable for about a year after assuming control of the C&EI.
Along with the physical plant L&N also acquired a portion of the C&EI’s fleet of locomotives and rolling stock, track machinery as well as other railroad related equipment and vehicles.
The C&EI operated as a unit of MoPac retaining its name, with their initials appearing inside the MoPac buzz saw emblem instead of "Missouri Pacific Lines." MoPac did not gain full ownership of the C&EI for several years, but did maintain controlling interest. This was the main reason for the C&EI name surviving the merger for so many years. C&EI as a corporate identity disappeared completely in October 1976. There are still some former C&EI freight cars operating with C&EI "buzz saws" and CEI reporting marks either clearly showing having never been changed to MP, or bleeding through patch jobs that obliterated them so many years ago.
While gaining a direct route into Chicago, L&N did not gain a share of ownership of the Chicago & Western Indiana, an important route which was essentially devolving into a paper railroad. While the CWI did run local freight jobs to handle on line industries, their commuter passenger train operations had ceased to operate three years previously in 1965.
The L&N also did not gain a share of the Belt Railway of Chicago who shared common management with the CWI. A stake in the Belt was strategic as it would offer the L&N preferred rated on switching charges for cars interchanged through the Belt for forwarding and connection to other railroads in the Chicago Terminal as well as to L&N from their Chicago connections. In that era the Belt was not the autonomous operation it is today. Owner railroads were offered a better switching rate than non-owners using the line, there was no negotiating rates like today. Calculated into the switching charges were the haulage fees for using the BRC main tracks to and from Clearing Yard, yarding fees and humping fees.
The powers that be in Louisville needed to develop a strategy to gain ownership in the Belt and CWI. They focused towards the Monon. The L&N really needed the Monon’s route into Chicago like Oscar Meyer needs more hot dogs. In the grand scheme of things, the Monon was really nothing more than a parallel line to the L&N’s former C&EI route into Chicago. Acquisition of the Monon would give them a greater share of the line haul and revenue for the coal that originated on the L&N destined for US Steel’s Gary Works. Prior to the Monon acquisition, they fed these trains to the Pennsylvania and then Penn Central at Louisville who forwarded them to the EJ&E in Schererville, IN. The only thing the L&N really wanted were the shares of ownership Monon had in the Belt and the CWI. They needed and required the Monon’s shares of both to gain a cost effective advantage in Chicago.
The Monon was essentially a regional railroad whose entire physical plant was operated within the state of Indiana, hence the slogan "The Hoosier Line." Monon’s corporate name for years was the Chicago, Indianapolis & Louisville. This was dropped in favor of its Monon nickname in the post war years under the leadership of railroad legend John Barriger. At New Albany, IN the Monon crossed the Ohio River reaching into Louisville via the Southern Railway and Kentucky & Indiana Terminal Railroad. It accessed Chicago and made its connections via the CWI and BRC. Trackage between Hammond and State Line Tower on the Indiana/Illinois border was actually owned by the CWI and called the Monon Track and later the L&N track. From State Line north it was an all CWI route.
The Monon System formed a giant X at Monon where it’s other lines, the routes between Indianapolis and Monon and Monon and Michigan City joined. It was a successful operation, but pretty much at the mercy of its connections at either end for life supporting bridge traffic. With L&N having its own route into Chicago via the C&EI, little bridge traffic would come from them. While Southern used the Monon for some, the lion’s share of their traffic moved via the Penn Central between Cincinnati and Chicago. This was of course, before Penn Central collapsed and almost deteriorated into non-existence. Seeing the handwriting on the wall, the folks in Central Indiana took heart when the L&N came courting.
In 1971 L&N and Monon were officially hitched. A major and prolonged battle with the Milwaukee Road over trackage rights between Bedford, IN and Louisville, KY as a condition to the merger took place. Nonetheless, L&N gained their badly needed shares of ownership of the CWI and BRC. They had to allow the Milwaukee access to the railroad between the above named points, but still got what they really sought, better and lower cost access to the rest of the railroad world through the Chicago gateway. Had they fought off the Milwaukee and won, it would have been gravy. But the L&N got what they really wanted. As an owner of CWI, the L&N gained lower trackage rights fees, a lower per car switching charge at BRC’s Clearing Yard and a return on investment.
In the years following the Monon merger, L&N began to basically gut and loot the Monon. Much of the through business was diverted to the C&EI route over a period of years. By the end of the L&N before they were merged into the Seaboard System, the only scheduled through trains to operate daily on the former Monon were numbers 290 and 291 between Louisville and Chicago. The required coal trains to US Steel’s Gary Works continued to operate as well. More often than not, these trains would turn back at Dyer with the empties from the EJ&E after delivering the loads. On occasion if there were no empties awaiting return to the mines, the crew would run caboose lite to South Hammond and tie up. Also as required, potash trains between Chicago and Delphi were operated and on line elevators originated unit grain trains.
L&N was starting to look at opportunities to reduce operating costs and the duplication in the Chicago Terminal. L&N had a stake in Yard Center with MoPac crews actually handling all the switching chores. And being that most of L&N’s trains operated via the C&EI, it only seemed logical to consolidate operations there. A plan was hatched in the latter 70’s to eliminate the former Monon’s South Hammond Yard. South Hammond was not the most efficient set up in railroading. It was bisected by 173rd Street which meant that all tracks had to be cut to clear this crossing. The yard lay on both sides of this crossing.
Monon Sub (what the line was now called) road crews were not allowed to operate north of South Hammond Yard. Yard crews had to make the transfer of cars from inbound trains to the Indiana Harbor Belt and Belt Railway of Chicago. And southbound cars were hauled back by these same yard crews, made up into the outbound trains which the road crews operated back to Lafayette, Bloomington and Louisville. Yard crews also operated all potash trains that came from connections in Chicago to South Hammond where road crews took over.
South Hammond crews also handled all industry work in Hammond and Munster. While there were only two regular assigned jobs at South Hammond in its latter days of operation, there was an extra board full of guaranteed Engineers and Trainmen. The guarantees were the result of the merger protection required under the Monon/L&N merger. There were also two protected Hostler assignments at South Hammond. In an attempt to try to run these guys off the property, L&N decided to make both the hostling positions night jobs and gave them lousy days off.
By this point in time, other segments of the Monon had been pretty well dried up. The line between its namesake city of Monon and Michigan City had lost its importance. By the end of the 70’s this line had retrenched from Michigan City now only operating as far north as Medaryville, IN. Little, if any through freight traffic was being handled and mostly local industry work supported the line. Local traffic in Michigan City was handed over to Chessie System subsidiary Chicago, South Shore & South Bend. The line between Monon and Indianapolis was also being dried up. After the CSX merger, local traffic around Indianapolis was conveyed to the Chessie System and the line was eventually abandoned between Indiana’s Capitol City and Delphi.
In 1978, the L&N and its parent company Seaboard Coast Line along with other siblings Georgia Railroad, Clinchfield and Atlantic & West Point melded into a homogenous operating name of "The Family Lines Rail System." Each unit within Family Lines kept its corporate name, but standards began to be established for the company to streamline functions, standardize operations and reduce costs. Like its fellow Family Lines cousins, L&N itself had become a set of white, eight inch letters on the sides of gray locomotives with yellow and red trim that said "Family Lines System". After Chessie System and Seaboard Coast Line Industries, the parent company of The Family Lines merged in 1981, more changes on the Monon took place.
Two reprieves for the Monon came in 1981. The first being when Amtrak began operating the daily Hoosier State (trains 318/317 in the Amtrak timetable, 217/218 in L&N and later, Seaboard timetables) between Chicago and Indianapolis. These trains used a Monon routing between Air Line Junction in Munster (the connection to Conrail’s SC&S Branch) and Ames, IN where the line connected to Conrail’s Crawfordsville Secondary Line. Amtrak pumped money for track improvements into the line, but the train’s route bypassed Hammond and the slow, road crossing dotted and deteriorated track between State Line Tower and South Hammond. It also missed a strategic point along the line. Perhaps things might have been different for the route if the train used the entire Monon route through Northwest Indiana.
The second reprieve occurred when a fatal collision/derailment occurred on Conrail’s Danville Secondary. The Milwaukee had trackage rights on this Conrail line. The derailment resulted in hazardous material release that killed the Conductor of Milwaukee Road train 204 and also several motorists on the parallel US Rt. 41. Motorists drove into the cloud of toxic vapors unaware of what was happening. The Danville Secondary was closed for months after this episode and all Milwaukee Road trains to and from Louisville had to detour over the Monon between Hammond and Louisville. These detours required pilots on all trains and meant all those hardly working Engineers and Conductors on the South Hammond extra boards got gainful and well paying work every day for months. L&N got a break on this as the Milwaukee Road had to pay all costs for the pilots. The Milwaukee also had to pay L&N the special derailment detour rate as well. This rate is preset by the American Association of Railroads to assure that one railroad does not gouge another during a time of crisis. (Gee, would they really do that?) It is much lower than what most railroads negotiate between themselves for trackage rights fees. Even though the rates were lower, the L&N was still making money moving these trains.
Family Lines planners used the resources of newly merged parent companies of what was now CSX Corporation to make other changes on the Monon. There was now a big push being put on to eliminate South Hammond Yard and all the crews based there.
L&N had been attempting for several years to gain trackage rights on the Grand Trunk Western between Maynard in Munster where the two lines crossed and Thornton Jct in South Holland where the former C&EI and GTW crossed and connected. Neighbors in South Holland and rail labor fought this attempt. After several court proceedings, the reroute was allowed. In early 1981, construction was begun on a new connection to be located in the southwest quadrant at Maynard. This connection would allow the direct facing point movement of trains off the Monon and onto the Grand Trunk and vice versa.
At first, hand operated switches were placed into service. Eventually, power switches were installed and as well as all the other necessary hardware to fashion a new interlocking. This improvement allowed trains to proceed from one line to the other without having to stop and line the switches between the two routes. This statement is made in theory of course. It was not unusual to see a train stopped at Maynard patiently waiting for permission and later once installed and placed into service, signal indication to enter the South Bend Sub of the GTW. Control of the new plant was given to the Grand Trunk Dispatcher who was located in Battle Creek, MI at that time.
At the same time, a new connection was being built on the MoPac at 162nd Street just north of Thornton Jct. While there had long been a connection in place between the MoPac and GTW, there was no way for trains coming off the wye to enter the MoPac main tracks. All trains had to enter the yard at Yard Center. The new connection at 162nd Street would now allow just that. And south bound trains coming off the MoPac rails could crossover, enter the wye, swing around and reach GTW rails. Crossovers between the two main tracks on the MoPac were also built and installed as part of this project.
In early September of 1981, the first Monon train operated via the new route. This effectively eliminated South Hammond Yard. It did not however, eliminate the customers that remained on the line and their need for rail service. This is where the MoPac came into play. In an unusual arrangement, as part of the big cut over to Yard Center, L&N contracted with the MoPac to handle the industry switching on the Monon Sub between Hammond and Munster. This arrangement was to the dismay of all the L&N South Hammond Terminal crews.
The next change came in late 1982. US Steel coal trains were routed off the Monon and its connection to the EJ&E at Dyer, IN. The new route for these trains was via the Chessie System from Cincinnati to Gary, IN. Chessie had an interchange there with the EJ&E directly across from "the J’s" Kirk Yard, which sits adjacent to US Steel’s Gary Works.
There were several active industries regularly using rail service including a Scott Paper warehouse and distribution center, the Hammond Times newspaper, a La-Z-Boy distribution center, a lumber yard and a printing press. Pepsi Cola had a plant on the line as well. This plant received sugar and corn syrup by rail, but perpetual poor service being offered by both L&N and Conrail ran them off to the trucks.
L&N Engineers from South Hammond were sent over to Yard Center and placed onto the bottom of the MoPac extra board. Conductors did not come over for quite some time following this move. Needless to say, there were hard feelings and quite the legal battle began. At first, some six or seven Engineers were sent across the border. This got me out of the roundhouse and onto the Engineer’s extra board. A few more Engineers followed a few months later.
L&N Engineers were demanding their seniority be dovetailed into our list. This would mean they would cut right in with their original dates from the Monon and L&N and go ahead of MoPac Engineers with dates below theirs. It goes without saying, but I mention it just the same, we were not going to stand for this. The Monon guys were contending they were following their work. They had a total of four regular jobs and two of those were the protected hostling assignments. We had all sorts of jobs without the Monon business, but had they been granted their way, we would have lost out to them and been displaced. Our BLE division offered up a settlement to make the Monon Engineers a permanent part of out seniority roster, but they wanted far too much and we would not relinquish all of our rights on their behalf.
Prior to the cessation of operations there, the South Hammond crews did not block up the outbound 291 train. They simply switched out any industry cars from the inbound BRC transfer run (which included cars picked up from the IHB enroute) and married up the cars received from BRC, IHB and industries and made the train ready to head south. The same situation occurred with the northbound 290 train. The train arrived pretty well blocked. Industry cars were set out at South Hammond and the transfer crew took the train north setting out the IHB cars enroute.
Quite often, the transfer crew on 290 would set out a couple of engines from their locomotive consist at Clearing Yard for a southbound L&N train that operated over the C&EI. This train, 795 that operated between Chicago and Nashville, originated at Clearing Yard and operated via the C&EI routing. When the Monon trains were diverted over to Yard Center in 81, the BRC and IHB business was simply added to the existing transfer jobs MoPac used daily to connect with these two railroads. 290 tied up at Yard Center and 291 went on duty at Yard Center. This method would change in two years.
MoPac yard crews began to block the Monon business for the outbound 291 train instead of it being "mine run" to Lafayette where it was then reclassified. Auto parts from Ford’s Chicago Heights Stamping Plant now began to move on this train. Being that L&N switched the Ford assembly plant in Louisville, the parts for this plant were moving on the former C&EI routing. With the Monon train operating directly to Louisville, the decision was made to remove the Ford parts from 791, a Yard Center to Nashville train and add them to 291. This was a very logical move. With 291 now being blocked at Yard Center, the train made a faster run to Louisville and the parts moved in a much more timely fashion.
Despite the battling over the job rights and the like, I became friends with a couple of the Monon guys. It was very strange to have a guy like Ed "Moon" Mullens with some forty plus years on the railroad working as my Fireman. Ed was a nice guy and showed me a few tricks. He gave me a boatload of old timetables and rulebooks from the Monon and L&N, told me all sorts of interesting stories about his career and stories about the Monon and L&N. He also made mention of getting to meet Monon CEO John Barriger. He had great respect for the man. Needless to say, he along with all these other guys had nothing but total disdain for the L&N.
Another of their Engineers was Clyde Coble who was an Assistant Local Chairman with the BLE on the Monon. Clyde fired for me on numerous occasions and we discussed their seniority issues at length. We also discussed other union and railroad dealing on ours and other properties. Clyde had a boatload of knowledge about various happenings involving Conrail and its formation.
I could see the Monon men’s point about the seniority issue, I just could not agree with much of it. They were only following their work, not ours. If they succeeded in getting all their seniority, they would be taking our work, at our yard, away from us. This was not going to happen. At least two thirds of the Yard Center Engineers would be adversely affected had the Monon men been given all their seniority at our terminal.
What was proposed was allotting them spots on our roster permanently. They would get the 7,14,21,28 and 35 spots forever, until the last Monon man retired. When their number one man retired from the 7 spot, their number two man in our number 14 spot would move up to the 7 spot. Their number three guy would jump to the 14 spot and so on. In getting these positions, they would give up their wage guarantees and those on the MoPac roster displaced by the Monon guys would then gain them. This set up would create an entire list of adversely affected men and women on the MoPac roster. In my case, I would have immediately lost about five spots in seniority with this arrangement. It very possibly would have had me furloughed for a while as a result. The Monon guys rejected this proposal opting to fight for all their seniority. It was a fight they would almost certainly lose.
In the meantime, with the transferring of the Monon trains to Yard Center, the Hammond Local was born. Beginning with the first Tuesday after the first 290/291 trains began operating into and out of Yard Center, the Hammond local became a twice a week run. It was normally assigned a single Geep for power, oftentimes an L&N unit. Normally, the train had about ten or twelve cars or so and a caboose.
MoPac and L&N had a motive power arrangement that called for several locomotives to be assigned by the L&N to Yard Center for captive yard service. L&N sent a variety of GP7’s and 9’s (many of C&EI heritage) along with some SW1500 and MP15 switchers for use at Yard Center. The switchers were normally used at the south end of the yard as they were somewhat quieter than the Geeps. This appeased the neighbors who had decided to build homes right next to the railroad and then bitch and moan about the noise. The Geeps were normally free runners used on all other jobs except for service on the Chicago Heights Terminal Transfer Railroad (CHTT) in Chicago Heights. The L&N had no stake in the CHTT so their power was not allowed to work the line other than in transfer service on the Ford Run.
For most of the first year, a regular crew worked the Hammond Local. It was almost always exclusively MoPac crews. On occasion, a former South Hammond Engineer might catch the job off the extra board. I didn’t work this job for about the first couple of months it was on. Finally, I got my first chance.
With this we will end part one of this lesson. In the second part we will actually take a ride on the local. I will present the method of our operation and discuss various aspects of the job.
For an upcoming project I am doing extensive research. I am seeking the assistance of men and women with experience in the operation of remote control locomotives. It can be in any type of service ranging from class one railroad to industrial contract switching or steel mill operations, be your experiences brief or extensive, I want to hear from all of you that I can. I will present all those who respond a questionnaire dealing with their experiences in RCO service. All names of the respondents and their employers and locations will be kept strictly confidential.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, © 2003 by JD Santucci
News report there was a BUMP in the night at HOBOKEN when a PATH train got a little out of line and hit the buffer in the station, there was no report of damage (even though some was hinted at) - any word on what happened and what unit was involved?
wayne
Hmmm...Deja Vu anyone? Didn't a vigilant SubTalker post a picture of the exact same sort of occurance several months ago? Didn't some idiot SubTalker yell at the vigilant SubTalker for possibly getting the Engineer in trouble? Maybe we need more Vigilant SubTalkers out there telling PATH what's really going out on the job.
In this case the engineer's already in trouble.
NJ.com news flash story
Yes, that was my first thought when I heard this story as well.
Also, the report of "no damage" may have been true for the train, but not for at least one person on the platform. They were taken to the hospital with a leg injury from flying debris. (source: wcbs880.com -- traffic and shrapnel together)
I am very viligant! What are the chances that this is engineer is the same one that did this to David Greenberger and I???
Take Pride,
Brian
If this engineer is the same one that was reported on here before but was told by many "inside sources/heads up in the transit world" to keep his mouth shut just an accident, this goes to show that sometimes doing the right thing pays off, and afford someone one less leg injury in their life.
Those PATH engineers operate their trains much more agressively than their lower compensated counterparts at NYCT. Theychallenge grade timers all the time and come into stations ending in bumperblocks at regular speed. Of course, Hoboken is not grade timed to the bumper block like the E line at WTC is for example.
Of course, Hoboken is not grade timed to the bumper block like the E line at WTC is for example.
There are timer signals about halfway down the platform (they're overhead, so you might not notice them). That's about 3 or 4 car lengths from the bumper. There's a permanent trip stop (without signal) before the bumper. Apparently, none of this is sufficient.
Even guys who regularly charge the signals are normally careful in Hoboken - even during the off hours when there isn't likely any supervision around, they follow the rules around Hoboken. As an example, one engineer operates with his cab door open, but closes up while entering Hoboken.
However, I can see how someone could be careless there - I've seen engineers come in and dump air, and have their handle and key out and be at the doors before the conductor has opened up.
Some crews operate more agressively than others - I've seen one crew that opens up before the train comes to a complete stop, and one conductor who won't open the head car at 9th St NJ-bound. Ride the system at varied hours and you can see all sorts of odd crew behavior.
eBay Item #2154613262
eBay Item 2154613649
To you Standard experts:
I happened to notice that some pictures of Standards have hand straps and some just have bars, as illustrated in the following two pictures from this site. The one on the Canarsie Line has bars but the Culver picture shows straps. Although I rode Standards on both lines numerous times I have no recollection if they were straps or bars. Were there two different models of Standards built or was the straps replaced with bars with the rebuild? I also never recalled the Checker-like jump seats against the middle doors that the Standard at the Transit Museum has.
All in all, don't those Standards interiors look just comfy and cozy? Can't say the same thing about those sterilized stainless interiors these days, can we?
How I miss them, the D-types and R9s!
Hot Lunch!
Sarge... I was just looking through the paperback "Subway Cars of the BMT", which has a load of pages on the Standards... There's a lot of pictures that surprised me...There's some shots of the first cars with absolutely no straps or bars... The earliest cars had window shades on each window... The back of the motorman's cab had a pull down window shade... There's a lot of neat pictures in the book...
I remember seeing those drop down seats, but never remember seeing them actually used. When used that door panel would be cut out.
Sarge, I seem to remember both straps and bars. I wonder if the earlier cars had bars and the later cars had straps.
The jump seats were removed when the cars were renovated in the late 1950's. There were six jump seats in each car, and in the down position would block one door of each set of two doors. The jump seats were not used in my day, but were a great thing to lean against when you sat in the adjoining seat.
Incidentally, the Standards all had rattan seats & backs before renovation. I think they got that vinyl seat idea from the R-16, and it was a total disaster.
The Standards did seem to be the roomiest subway cars ever built!
I was too young to remember the jump seats in the Standards -- my only real experience was on the Canarsie line in the late 1960s -- but I do remember them on their sister cars on the SIRT. Very uncomfortable, though for a little kid, you could push back and forth against the supporting door leaf and make a lot of noise, which was a mitigating factor for the lack of comfort (sort of like a rattan version of the R-40 seats...)
>>> I think they got that vinyl seat idea from the R-16, and it was a total disaster. <<<
They were on refurbished Lo-Vs long before the R-16 arrived.
Tom
If I had to bet, I'd say the ones with the straps and jump seats were visiting from the SIRT.
Yes, very nice cars. I remember them, and their spreckled green interiors.
I hope Branford can fix up and run their standards. I hear the motors were damaged in flooding. Perhpas new trucks can be obtained from the dead birds.
Elias
An interesting idea. 2775 would sound like a Redbird, but at least it would run....
-Stef
The straps seem to be on the 2nd set or Cars and the bars on the 1st. If you compare say 2100 and 2700 there are quite a few differences both exterior and interior
To be honest with you I would take that bet because I'm pretty sure the car is a Standard & not an SIRT car. (even though its probably sacreligious to bet against a Monk) Here are some of my reasons:The picture came from this site's BMT Standard's section.Although I might be wrong, I doubt they changed the roll signs to reflect the Culver Shuttle. That's if the SIRT cars even had rollsigns in the same place. You can't tell on the pictures of the SIRT cars on Dave's site. I'll have to check the SIRT car at Branford the next time I go.Check out the handles on the seats. It has the same type as the Standards. The SIRT cars have different seat handles.Now, the Final Proof, or should I say proff. Check out the picture of the Culver Shuttle with the transit cop, motorman, and conductor on Paul Matus' site. That car is definitely a standard as you can see by the seating arrangement.
The SIRT cars had metal plates and not rollsigns. Both of those pics are of BMT standards. Although I rode on them on the Canarsie for two years, I can't remember if they had straps or grab bars. By the late 60s, the unrebuilt older cars were gone.
Here is a picture from the 1918 BRT Monthly showing straps being repaired for the subway cars - the only subway cars were the Standards back then.
No, the SIRT cars did NOT have the jump seats. I remember those on many of the BMT Standards. The BMT subway car book even mentions them.
SIRT cars also did NOT have destination/route signs.
Now that I looked at the photos longer, perhaps the handle/straps were removed when the cars went through an overhaul???
The info I have suggests that the original orders (the 2300s
and 2400s) had the bars. All of the later cars came with
movable handgrabs, just like the R-9s. I wouldn't call
those "straps" to avoid confusion with the gate cars.
The SIRT cars had suburban-style walkover seating.
In retrospect, Branford got the wrong AB. A 2300 would have
been better since it wasn't modernized and is therefore more
restorable into a 1920s configuration. 2775 never ran in service
as a single car although evidence suggests it was delivered
that way. We could take it back to the 1920s but it requires
replacement of the missing cab sheet metal, replacing the entire
switchgroup, seating changes, etc. The car came to us after
rotting outside in NY for a few years, and it hasn't gotten better
in its 20 years as an outside display. Major body work needed.
The flooded motors are the least of the problems! I could fix the
motors in a few months, but the body and electrical work would
take years. Redbird trucks won't work. Maybe as shop trucks,
although I doubt they'd take that kind of weight. Definitely
not as trucks to run the thing with. Totally different technology.
Let's just say that although it is a car that some of us would
like to eventually tackle, it isn't very near the top of the priority
list, especially with the 100th anniversary of the IRT (not the BRT)
coming up in 2 years!
I remember both the straps and bars, but have no recollection of which went with which cars.
The auxiliary seats existed to provide extra seating during off hours. The conductors could release them with a key. I only recall some being down in the '50s and that may have been a fluke. They were removed as part of the overhaul of '59-'60.
The cane material on the seats was rattan and was very durable, but, when miscreants would cut it with a knife in the '50s (difficult, but they would work on it, like some people do scratchitti) it made sharp points, so they next tried the foam and vinyl, which was simply slashed.
FWIW, the top picture is a 2600-2800 series Pressed Steel, the lower 2500 series ACF.
I can remember both straps and bars as well, and how un comfortable those old loop straps were (To small!). I do remember the auxiliary seats too, but NEVER remember them in use (I can see why they removed them). I love the old standard interiors, felt like you were walking into someones house; especially the old rattan seats.
Not sure, perhaps it was two different car orders? I remember only the bars being in the Standards...but then, at my ripe old age, havign any memory other than what's inside the computer tower....
Funny thing is, way out here in southern California, a local restaurant used to have a set of three strap handles mounted to the ceiling in the mens' room above the urinals, so you could hold the strap while taking car of business!! First time I went in there, I thought the apparatus looked familiar, then another time, I noticed it actually had "BMT Lines" cast into the handles!! The place was renovated, the thing disappeared. The manager said one of the customers bought it!!!
The Standards were puchased in several batches by the BMT over a 10 year period from two different manufacturers (ACF and Pressed Steel), so there were differences. Expecting them to be all identical would be like expecting all of the R-1 through R-9 IND cars, R-17 through R-36 cars on the IRT, or R-16 through R-38 BMT/IND cars to be identical. They all followed pretty much the same plan, but there were variations from one model to the next.
-- Ed Sachs
I have been studying the technical data sheets as printed in Sansone's book. Unless some entries have been omitted, some of the earlier Standards must have been delivered without any straphangers or bars. It would seem that metal straphangers were installed first, and then later replaced with the bars. There seemed to be be no pattern as to what cars wound up with, but the bars seemed to be later than the individual metal straphangers.
Conductor on 727 A Far Rock found fatally injured at Rockaway Blvd. at 8:11 this morning. More later; have to run.
I heard it was a platform conductor.
I guess the facts will come out later.
More about the accident at Rockaway...
Source: NY1
A subway conductor was killed after an accident on a northbound "A" train in Queens Saturday morning.
The Transit Authority said the conductor had her head out of the window of the train as it left the Rockaway Boulevard Station. Investigators said the woman hit her head on a fixed object as the train was leaving the station. She was pronounced dead on the scene.
The woman, whose name has not yet been released, was about 30 years old, a police report said.
The "A" train from Euclid Avenue to Broad Channel was shut down in both directions as police and MTA officials investigated the incident.
If I understand it correctly, conductors are supposed to look out their windows in both drections to make sure nobody's being dragged by the train. (And I have seen them do that).
Given that, there isn't supposed to be anything on the platform which could collide with the conductor's head.
My condolences to the family and friends of this conductor.
I think he condustor hit her head on a metal post at the end of the platform. By tht point she should have brought her head back in.
After I posted my remarks, I was thinking that there are posts for signals and such - but are they close enough to the train to whack somebody in the head? Maybe moving them aside another 6 inches would be in order...
It might have been anything. If one thing didn't do it something else would have hit her.
I'm sorry I didn't have access to a computer because I had a family emergency over the weekend. My deepest condolences and sympathy to the family of the conductor and anyone else within NYCT that worked with her, directly or indirectly:
The tragic death over the weekend, brings me to mind about the stupid post by voiceofreason and his expose on the $60,000 MTA chaplain. Not only is the family of the subway conductor (just over a year as a extra, not her normal route, on the job and was doing the midnight tour according to my sources, so that was going to be her last trip to 207th for the day.), but her T/O partner must be going through a traumatic state now. It is so sad when you lost a co-worker to a freak accident, could it have been prevented? Maybe. Was the fence REALLY neccessary at N. Conduit station? (Why is there no fence at 161st/River ave station on the #4 platforms, it must be at least 13 car lengths on the Manhattan bound platform.) What about the steel fence at Manhattan bound Willets Point/Shea platform on the #7? And what about those dangerous electrical wires that are dangling from the platform, only a foot or less above my head. (Flatbush41 or anyone else who rides the Brighton line, look at the extenstion cords at the front platform side of Atlantic Ave station, heading towards Brighton Beach.)
voiceofreason, I respect you views, but that was dead wrong to complain about the chaplain. I do believe that many collegues who knew her for such a short period of time are grieving over a senseless tragedy, and that chaplain was available in time of comfort and need. Now this is the MAIN reason why NYCT pays a salary for only one as you lamely call it "men of the cross". God bless everyone.
NYCT should "practice what they preach" about "your safety matters to us" and identify and correct ALL potential hazards in this subway system. Conductors have come a long way from standing between cars and operate the controls of a R1-10 series train (in ALL types of weather, snow, heavy downpour, you name it.), to the safety of a full width cab.
My condolences, to the conductors' family. Its always sad when someone dies in 'service'. Time to remove the offending structure.
I can already see a wrongfull death suit being filed. I wonder what it was that she was hit by? Very sad story.
(I can already see a wrongfull death suit being filed. I wonder what it was that she was hit by? Very sad story.)
Whether it was a wrongful death or not is there to be determined. I guess we'll find out eventually what and where the object was. Perhaps it was something that was somewhere it was not supposed to be.
On the other hand, if the conductor should have pulled her head it before arriving at the object, there is also the possibility that something prevented her from doing so, such as a sudden illness.
I guess this is something I hadn't thought about before. What is the conductor supposed to do as the train runs along the platform?
I imagine the rule is still what it was, observe for three carlengths for someone being dragged, pull your head in (two cars before end of platform), raise sash. (in my day, it was step down, put the gate chains back in place) ... you do this instinctively.
There's so many possibilities - medical situation, someone trying to leap onto the rear, a thrower, any number of possible distractions or possible safety issues that caused the conductor to need to watch longer than normal.
Never could understand why, at some platforms, there's stanchions, gate railings and metalwork right on the edge of a platform at neck height. But there are and it's likely our unfortunate conductor whacked something at the platform edge while watching for something else. :(
Working railroads *IS* dangerous ... a short distraction can result in death or injury. In case anyone ever wondered why conductors get a bit angry with bottle kickers or other horser's-around, situations like this CAN be the result. But my GUESS is that something was going on on that platform at the time, and she died what she got paid to do - look out for the public's safety at the expense of her own.
(But my GUESS is that something was going on on that platform at the time, and she died what she got paid to do - look out for the public's
safety at the expense of her own.)
I can only hope it comes out, and at least some effort is made to prevent this from happening again. What a year plus this has been for death and injury, at the TA, at the Trade Center, at JFK. What next?
Very sad indeed, a C/R just doing her and suddenly she gets hit by a unknown object and dies :-(. It is possible a wrongful death suit will arise but its too early to tell right now and we don't know what the object is.
Is there a signal at the north end of the plat at Rockaway Blvd? Possibly the "fixed object" this unfortunate woman struck. My condolences to her family.
On the platform towards Lefferts Blvd/Rockaways, yes there is the push button box. As for the platform towards Manhattan there should be a signal there.
Should they move it over another 6 inches to prevent this from recurring? They can adjust the lamp's angle so the T/O can still clearly see it.
By the time the "feasibility study" and "budget review" and "construction analysis" is through, some other poor C/R will have smacked their head on the thing.
Yeah, maybe. But if you don't do it at all, the next C/R's head won't be the last one to get smacked. If one more person dies but then it finally gets done, then it's over. I'm not saying I condone the delay - but we all have to deal with realities.
True that. BTW according to AP link at earlier post, C/R struck her head at N. Conduit on a fence closing off a section of the plat. I'm gonna go down there as soon as A service is restored and see howw close that fence is to the edge of the plat. Sounds like it's a little TOO close. Maybe they'll do a feasibility study about THAT...
I hope so.
Hey, stop making fun of "feasibility studies." Those kinds of things put food on my table.
---Brian
It's really sad to be having this discussion less than 12 hours after this poor woman died.
It seems to me that it's a case of either -- (1) she made a mistake and left her head outside the car too long (I think it's been mentioned here that the c/r's are supposed to keep there head out until the train has advanced 2 car lengths?); (2) This fence was newly constructed and was too close to the platform edge (dozens of trains have passed through this station every day for years, so I wouldn't think it was a fixed object; or (3) as suggested by someone else, she was taken ill and that's why she was still out the window.
Even if it was her own mistake, it's just terribly sad that someone can lose track of what they were doing for just a second and pay with their life.
CG
It seems to me that it's a case of either -- (1) she made a mistake and left her head outside the car too long (I think it's been mentioned here that the c/r's are supposed to keep there head out until the train has advanced 2 car lengths?); (2) This fence was newly constructed and was too close to the platform edge (dozens of trains have passed through this station every day for years, so I wouldn't think it was a fixed object; or (3) as suggested by someone else, she was taken ill and that's why she was still out the window.
Is there any construction work going on at that station? I was thinking maybe a contractor could have left some equipment too close to the platform edge.
No construction going on at Aqueduct-North Conduit.
No construction going on at Aqueduct-North Conduit.
Even if it was her own mistake, it's just terribly sad that someone can lose track of what they were doing for just a second and pay with their life.
This is why the TA is big on distractions.
Even if something was going on on the platform that I felt needed me to watch a little longer in on direction, I'd make sure I knew well in advance what was ahead of me in the direction the train was moving. If a curved station then I'd have to look forward quickly.
If it prevents another fatality or injury, I think they should do that.
Uh uh,The family has nothing to file a suit for.TA had absoultely NOTHING to do with the incident.I know conductor's are supposed to look left and right to make sure that nothing bad is going on as the train leaves the station,but by the time the middle car of the train reaches the end of the station,the conductor shouldn't have his/her head hanging out.And here's another thing.If the train was Far Rock bound that means the train leaves Rocaway Blvd at 10-15 mph.She had way more than enough time to look around and then tuck her head back into her cab.So either she got hit by the lineup box pole or something else hit her.The family can't sue the TA for a mistake she made,that's ridiculous. That's why the TA has a billion dollar deficit to begin with.People sueing em for stupid little crap that's not worth sueing for in the first place.
My condolences to her family,especially if she was a married woman and had kids. Now her kids won't ever see thier mother again and I know what it's like to lose a mother cause mine died a year ago.I wish her family well.
It happened at North Conduit Av where the fence is at the end of the platform heading TOWARD Rockaway Blvd then it was discovered that she died. Something had to happen that the C/R didn't get her head back in the cab on time.
All the more reason why I think that extra,unused platform shouldn't be there.They should've taken out that section decades ago if it was never gonna be used.Same thing goes with that extra platform length that's also blocked off by a fence at Willets Pt-Shea Std. on the Manhattan-bound side.If it's never gonna be used,remove it!
Read this article.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-conduct0119,0,6217983.story?coll=ny%2Dnynews%2Dheadlines
I agree that the unused platform SHOULD be removed, its useless and I don't know why its there. It can't bring back the life of the dedicated C/R just doing her job by checking out a defect and this happens to her. And yes, Mr Touissant got into it and said the extra 200 feet of platform should be demolished. Always takes a death to bring reform & modifications, SHAMEFUL!
I don't want to seem heartless here, but there IS a rule that requires that you get your face out of the window when the train is moving regardless of any other situations. And it's done because there's "wayside" ... it could just as easily have been getting whacked by the homeball at 34th and 6th northbound which used to be right there on the platform edge (onder if they ever moved that?).
I'd still agree that the clearance was inadequate and should be mitigated. But you're NOT supposed to have your head sticking out the window of a moving train once three cars are past the end of the platform either. This whole thing is just plain sad ...
>>> But you're NOT supposed to have your head sticking out the window of a moving train once three cars are past the end of the platform either <<<
That's easy for you to say, but according to the Newsday article the fence was 200' before the end of the platform and this was not this C/R's normal run. It would be (or was) quite easy for the C/R to think she had plenty of time til the end of the station after looking forward at the side of the train and with unfocused vision through the fence to the end of the platform and then turning to view the back of the train.
Tom
Newsday was WRONG ... the fence is located 71 feet PAST the stop marker at that station. I was thinking the same thing you were at first. Alas, believing today's media reporters is more dangerous than believing those talk radio morons. Damned sad situation, but there was a little over a full carlength past the stop position, so the three car rule was violated by at least three more cars worth. In "conductor school" they scare the QWAP outta you about "wayside" ... if it hadn't been the fence stantion, it would have more likely have been a signal head.
You close down, deal with fussy doors, and once you GET indication in the cab, you PASS indication up front. Once you do so, the doors are no longer your problem - if the lamp goes out up front, the motorperson will dump the train or at least stop it. Then the confab begins - if they lose indication up front, they'll call you and ask if YOU have indication still at the middle position. There is NO need to stick your head out the window to confirm, especially if the train is moving.
I fell genuinely bad for the poor conductor, but you're not supposed to have your head out the window except over platform and only for the specified amount of time. You're not supposed to stick your head out coming INTO a station either until you're two carlengths in ... Newsday got it wrong. So did the Times. :(
You're not supposed to stick your head out coming INTO a station either until you're two carlengths in.
Current teaching is that you do not stick your head out of the window until the train comes to a complete stop. C/R's were getting injured by passengers toward the back of the platform waiting to whack them (and I'm sure there were other reasons, but this is what we were told at the time). So the rule is now complete stop.
Makes sense actually, but man ... there goes that "dwell time" ... you had an advantage on the Arnines - they had to be VERY tall to connect with ya, though a sucker punch to the pants was something you had to worry about. Then again, when they tried, they often connected with the gate. :)
I guess that's also why you announce IN the station now rather than before entering, just to give you something to do until the train stops. Ah well, back to school car for me. Not.
After they punched the gate of a moving train, did they try it again?
Heh. Too busy twirling on the platform in pain. :)
That home signal of which you are referring to is still there, and has not been moved one inch since I saw it as a little kid back in the 1950's. How some workers avoided being hit in the head by the various lineside obstructions while in the performance of their duties is unbelieveable. Every job comes with some sort of hazard, and those who think that working in the subways and railroads is nothing are in for a rude awakening. May that poor lady rest in peace. That, plus having to deal with drunks, crazies and straight-out knuckleheads on a daily basis, with a cold, almost indifferent management could send someone ovr the edge.
At Willets Pt.- Shea Stadium, they will never tear it down unless the station will undergo a big rehabilitation. Not only that, but it's a waste of money to do it by itself and it poses no danger to the C/R, because it's a point before the C/R should stick his or her own head out there.
The extra length is at the east end of the westbound platform at Shea Stadium, so the C/R won't have his or her head sticking out the window there. There is a punchbox at the west end of the station which is fairly close to the platform edge. You can see it in this .avi file (4.6 MB and don't worry about the data transfer, I have virtually unlimited bandwith).
That's just horrible. Here's my condolences to the family.
Its a real unfortunate accident. My condolences to the C/R's family.
Geez! That's HORRIBLE! End of platform stanchion? Normally you have your head back in the hole after three car lengths, something was likely going on there that required "extra watching" I'd bet.
My sympathies to all involved. :(
A possible distraction. That fence must be VERY close to the edge of the plat, too. I was going to ride out there today and see, but I will have to do this tomorrow. I think this poor woman became distracted by something on the plat. Very likely we'll never know. When I go out there tomorrow I'll measure the clearance out and let you know.
I have a feeling you won't get anywhere near it. Pity there isn't an 18-24 inch clearance at cab window height, regardless of what it was. :(
I thought cab window clearances for personnel on the plats was a mandatory safety issue. BTW my wife says you're right. She says there'll be a cop on that plat to keep away the C/R family's big, bad lawyers.
Everything's changed in the 30 years plus that I was working down yonder, but in a number of places, there were signal cases that you had to watch out for as well as platform walls. Most of them though weren't so tight. When I was last down there, I saw that some clearances HAD changed and not for the better.
My understanding now though is that this was a chain link fence not actually on the platform, possibly placed by a contractor. So this story's getting a bit confused and we really don't know WHAT happened. Still, when you're a conductor, you do get trained NOT to have your head out there when you're a carlength away from a wall, and you're NOT supposed to have your head out there at ALL when you're not in a station.
I know that I got the willies stepping up on the Arnines, you HAD to start climbing out before you had platform under your chin just to be ready to open up when the train stopped. And you wanted to be holding on solidly when it did, since Arnines would brick wall stop every now and then if in bad order. And you wanted to climb down as quickly as you could once you spotted the cars pulling out.
Job's a lot more involved and dangerous than it looks to those who've never done it.
I can agree with that! A couple years ago I treated another C/R who was struck in the face with an IRON as his train pulled out of the station. The only reason his head didn't turn to Jell-o was he saw it coming and got most of the way back in when he was struck. Plus this was done deliberately by some sicko who was grabbed by passengers and later told the cops he'd do it again.
It most certainly IS a different world...
30 years ago, the mentally ill were still largely institutionalized and were at least supervised in taking their meds. All these tax cuts later, they're out on the streets. Taxes may have been insane years ago, but at least you GOT something for what you paid. :(
Now they give mental patients MetroCards upon release. Rikers Island does the same thing.
Now they give mental patients MetroCards upon release. Rikers Island does the same thing.
I believe the newly released Riker's Island inmates are dropped off at Queensboro Plaza station before dawn, and are given $3 MetroCards.
Yup. At 0500 every day, no less.
The fence was said to be 50' north of the 10-car mark. That would put it about 6 car lengths from the conductor's boards. The C/R is only required to observe the platform for 2 car lengths. I'm leaping to no conclusion here - just reporting the info as I have it.
BTW: I submitted a bid to install a similar fence outside of an R-9 cab on ocean pkwy.
Heh. yeah, didn't know about the location of the "object" at the time I posted. Rule used to be THREE car lengths back in my day, whereupon you were required to do the turtle number or get written up. You KNOW how we love to speculate here, unconscious is about the only real possibility left in my book since conductors are given the fear of God about "wayside" in school car. And I've BEEN to Heypaul's place - he's properly fenced in there. :)
I feel very bad about the poor conductor though - I've had my own close calls. Folks just don't realize how dangerous the job really is when they screw with people just doing their job. But I suspect something went very tragically wrong here that isn't what it first appears to be. Even in the old days, you didn't risk a cookie toss outside or between cars, you know why.
Finally, just to take this completely off the shoe beam, is there any chance that the MTA surplus guys can't put some stands on sale as surplus? I'm sure you'd agree that it just ain't right that Unca Heypaul be the ONLY person out there with a good set of stands in their home. :)
There is an e-mail address on the NYCT website where inquiries can be made regarding the purchase of redbird 'stuff'. (I'll try to locate it for you) And just to clarify - there is another R-9 cab in existance. Saddam Hussein has one (without the fresh air vent ala Kronenburg's cab). However, Saddam managed to install the brake valve on the correct side.
Ooooo ... that's COLD ... I've already contacted "surplus property" when I wanted to do that little ditty for a couple of museums, wiring up stands for use with a "hands-on BVE public exhibit" ("drive your own train") for which there was a WEE bit of interest. Never got a reply, left phone messages for the weasel in charge, nada. You'd think I'd asked for spare plutonium from the response it got. MTA left me with the impression that I'd be better off asking for spare rocket parts. No joke. So that idea withered and died on the vine. For all the foamers out there, and the giddy folks who came to Branford for handle time, you'd think something like this would have been a no brainer "great idea" for a public attraction.
But before I croak, I would like to get ahold of a pair for my own giggles at least and will them to a museum. There's a guy on eBay selling the TOP ONLY of a redbird controller - cams and reverser arm, no leaf switches, no base. What I'm after is wiring up the three notches on the controller stand, and the cam switches on the brake stand to plug into a joystick port on a computer (with appropriate resistances soldered in to replace the 100k ohms of a joystick) for a more realistic "experience" ... throw in a plasma display for a cab window and a 450 MHz machine and it's the next best thing to joining TWU without the dues checkoff. :)
But I guess as seen from above, only terrorists would want to play motorman. :x
Jeez, first the city sells the Sixth Ave. el scrap to the Japanese to use in their war machine, and now Saddam's got his hands on non-SMEE equipment. The feds have just gotta tighten down those export allowances before something like this happens again and Kim Il Jong gets his hands on a Redbird...
If Saddam is a railfan, I'm leaving the hobby. All I can say is that with all my operating manuals and my F40 PH control stand, the terrs would LOVE to get in my basement. but I'm ready for them "just hook a portable generator to the SECONDARY of a Lionel ZW transformer and hook the primary to a specially prepared chaircook throughly, then give the carcasses to bu$h to claim reward.
My condolences, also, to all concerned. The accident occurred at "old" Aqueduct Station on an R-38. The object in question was a fence, more than 70 feet past the 10-car stop. The fence post was almost 13 inches from the side of the car. The fence should be greatly reduced and/or reconfigured by now.
I'm surprised it was an R-38. Unless the conductor's cab was closed I would have thought the accident there would have been immediately apparent to any passengers inside the car, as opposed to an R-44 with the full width cab.
Considering the temperatures today, I wonder why her head was still outside the cab one car length after the platform (I assume an autopsy has been ordered to see if there was any other medical condition that may account for why she stayed at the window past the normal time span).
Yup, the fence for one of the exits, which is extra wide caused the death of the C/R. Something had to happen that she left her head out that long.
I *hope* that for the good of the family, and everyone else who works the line, that the CAUSE will somehow be found. I'd HAVE to guess that someone or something on the platform distracted the conductor. (warning! gross alert) I've been sick on the job too, and even if it's a 30 meter cookie toss, you do that *IN* the cab, not outside so even if THIS was the cause, a conductor wouldn't keep their head out the window for THAT reason either. I'm at a loss though to figure out why other than something or someone on the platform.
This is real puzzling and I hope they determine the exact cause of this tragic accident. I say they should modify the fence and other stations with limited clearance so something like this doesn't happen again. It always takes a tragedy to make reform and modifications to something & its always the hard working citizen that loses their life for something that could of probably have been prevebted :-(.
To my own useless and feeble mind, it would be NICE if there were 24 inches of clearance on the wayside at cab window height anyway so you'd have half a chance. I'm amused by movies like Speed II or MIB II where there's BELLS on anything that is a strike hazard - doing so would most certainly bankrupt the MTA but would be the outcome of a study group. Certainly the money spent would slow down timer installs a bit. But ultimately, a conductor KNOWS to pull their head in before end of platform is reached, in fact your window should be fully CLOSED by then.
Something went terribly, horribly wrong here and I'm inclined to think the conductor may have passed out and was slumped over in the cab window when she was hit. Question becomes WHY? Damned shame this is though. But if she was hit by something 50 or 70 feet down the wayside beyond the end of platform, then clearly something VERY serious happened there. The "two car length" (as I understand it to be now, used to be three for a ten car) rule is "if the train isn't clear while rolling, you're supposed to pull the cord. Under NO circumstances are you to be out there by the time your car hits the end of the platform even if there AREN'T any waysides to be concerned about.
I just hope there were people who saw what actually happened so the mystery can be solved. :(
I hope so too but this happened at about 7:30am yesterday and it was cold so there would probably be few witnesses; I could be wrong but I don't think the A is so busy in that corridor on Saturday mornings. Her head should of been inside the cab but as I said before, something had to happen that the C/R left her head out longer than she should have.
When playing beat the clock, you worry about the indication fairy - according to the Newsday report, the indication fairy was not smiling upon this consist. It was an extra trip (read that as tired) and (according to MEDIA, not an investigation) she'd had cranky doors. That's the kind of thing I was thinking of if not a medical situation, a bad ordered train. And 6-1/3 inches away from the carbody? That's WAY too close for my own comfort, surprised it was OK by the meatball. That's one hell of a nasty way to go, and avoidable. :(
Yes, reportedly she had indication/door problems at this station [the investigation is ongoing]. But they were overcome before the train proceeded with solid indication for all concerned. As for "extra trip," the media got that wrong: she was "extra list;" this was the second trip of her tour. And, the distance *was* over 12 inches from the car body to the fence post.
I figured someone more credible than clueless story-tellers from the media would provide some facts. Thanks for doing that. And yeah, the reason why the failure of the indication fairy to smile didn't suggest to me that she'd be watching the guard lights is that if indication is lost, the train would have to be dumped on the spot. You can tell from your own inside lights whether or not you lost it. I'm just trying to work out for myself (having once been a conductor) how or why she would have had her head out there to begin with.
How many feet from the stop marker IS that fence? Train Dude suggested either 50 or 70 feet down the railroad, which is certainly more than three car lengths ... I'm just trying to figure out HOW, especially when you worry about the rear first, front next, one last peek rear and in you go. :(
"How many feet from the stop marker IS that fence?"
71 feet. About 300 feet from Conductor's position to 10-car stop. Total distance travelled, therefore, about 371 feet. Conductors are required to observe the platform for 3 car lengths, or with R-38 equipment, for 180 feet.
Thanks ... well, I know how NTSB will (if it's even their place to) decide. DAMNED shame. :(
Here's the picture of the fence in question, with a motorman testing the clearance in an R-38:
Six-and-one-third inches? Thirteen inches? The image isn't close enough and the photo big enough to get a definite read, but I'd guess it's not more than a foot, though the clearance may be greater than what the Newsday article says.
I stand by what I posted before. The space between the side of the car and the fence post is more than 12.5 inches. I saw all of the reporters out there and, to my knowledge, no TA employee on the site gave them information: the reporters were referred to Public Affairs. The reporters did not watch the measurements being taken.
I believe it could of been avoided but then again, she could of fallen ill if she was working a double shift as the article APPERAS to be saying plus the door problem which distracted her for a second or two too long and led to the accident. But just over 6" is WAY too close; someone here said it was 13" which is STILL very close its just over a foot of extra space.
None of it adds up, and it looks like our clueless media bunnies have once again done what they do so well - not pay attention when the facts are being dished out, pick up the press release, and leave. Person was "extra list" not "extra shift", door troubles are one thing, but once you get indication and pass it, it's no longer in your hands as a conductor, the distance of the bar was mangled (though 18-24 inches is pushing it in my book) ... wonder how much ELSE was gotten wrong here?
Many stations all over the system have "fences" on elevated portions to keep people from falling to the street that are only four or five feet high, I'd guess that such a large gate was way too much but I'll leave it to the lawyers and armchair quarterbacks to argue. Still, she shouldn't have had her head out the window at that point, even if there was nothing on the end of the platform ... that's what I don't get. Even if someone was chasing her down the platform with a baseball bat, you MUST close up long before the gate was reached. I don't get it. :(
But ultimately, a conductor KNOWS to pull their head in before end of platform is reached, in fact your window should be fully CLOSED by then.
When I came out of school car a TSS reamed me for having my head out more than 3 cars for the same reason that this unfortunate accident occurred.
The "two car length" (as I understand it to be now, used to be three for a ten car)
When I left C/R (this past November) it was still "3 cars lengths or the end of the platform, whichever comes first." On the A it will always be the former.
Thanks for the backup. I'm sure a lot of current day conductors are wondering about this one too. DAMNED sad it is ... :(
Now I'm thinking a syncopal episode or other medical emergency caused her to stay out the window. In fact, bet on it. It sounds, in light of the known facts, to be VERY likely.
1) Fence 70' north of the 10-car board.
2) Passengers unaware something was wrong until doors didn't open at Rock Blvd. (No unusual sounds or screams upon departure from North Conduit).
3) Extreme cold. The smallest but most telling fact: Why keep your head out the window one second longer than you have to?
4) A syncope (fainting) can last for quite awhile. How about a head injury sustained by the C/R BEFORE she struck the fence, as from some fool on the plat striking her?
I was thinking the same thing in another post. The only other possibility I can think of is that someone may have been doing something, either on the platform or in one of the far rear cars, thet for some reason caught her attention and made her keep her head outside the window (in fact, if there was a 13-inch clearance between the post and the car window, she would have had to have had her head and neck extended out the window to come in contact with the post).
If that's the case, some of the passengers in the back of the train might have been able to shed some light on if there was anything unusual going on when the doors closed at North Conduit.
A syncope (fainting) can last for quite awhile. How about a head injury sustained by the C/R BEFORE she struck the fence, as from some fool on the plat striking her?
To be able to tell, you'd have to look at how high the blood was on the fence post. If it was around the height of the lower edge of the R38's window, this is probably the case. Much higher and she was probably conscious.
I don't know if TA investigators will think of looking at it like this though.
I'm pretty sure you can count on that being done. There will probably also be a slight indentation in the steel (sorry folks, but this is what they look for) where impact occurred. This will be a critical part of the blame-assessment, which after all is what these things are about. Since a fatality occurred, I'd GUESS that NTSB would at least want to look at the results, and therefore they'd expect that to be measured. But as I hinted more than enough, I think I already know what the outcome will be. :(
How about she was smoking and had her head out the window so that the smoke would not blow inside the carbody.
Apparently this happened on a Northbound "A" train at Aqueduct-North Conduit station, and the fatally injured conductor was not discovered until the train had arrived at the next stop, Rockaway Boulevard. I know exactly where that fence is too; it goes right up almost to the platform's edge. It separates the open section of Aqueduct station from the closed/abandoned section at the north end of the station.
My condolences to the conductor's family.
wayne
My condolences, to the conductors' family. Here's the story: http://www.ny1.com/ny/TopStories/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=1&subtopicintid=1&contentintid=27296
my condolences go out to the C/R's family. I live in a neighborhood full of MTA personal (Bedford Park) and 2 C/R's read this and were shocked. This is indeed sad.
Here's the AP story:
Subway conductor killed in Queens accident
How close to the edge of the plat is this fence?! I mean, C/R's can't lean TOO far out the window. I should ride the A today and see this for myself, whenever service is back up.
That's horrible.
One thing the family can take a little solace in: there was no suffering.
Really sad news. I wonder how long the fence had been there (a newly-erected one would be more likely to come as a surprise to any C/R operating on the A line).
I'm also assuming the train involved was an R-44, since the accident wasn't noticed until the doors failed to open at the next stop. An R-32/38 C/R cab accident would have been noticed immeidately by any passengers in the car.
The fence has been there for a long time. I don't know why, but the NB platform at that station is extremely long. Only the south 600 feet (and change) are open to the public.
The platform is leftover from when the LIRR had the line.
So why did the LIRR have such a long platform there but nowhere else on the line?
Something to do with the racetrack? Did LIRR run long special trains to carry the horseracing fans?
LIRR cars, at 85'long are significantly longer than subway cars. While the average NYCT train is between 480' & 600' long, a 10 car LIRR train is 850' long. IIRC, NYCT used the longer platforms at Aquaduct to seperate regular riders from those customers riding the Aquaduct Specials.
Aha. Why wasn't the separate Aqueduct Racetrack station used for that purpose? Regular A trains could bypass it.
According to the book "Change at Ozone Park" they did have special trains for the track, the same way they still run trains to Belmont Park.
"I'm also assuming the train involved was an R-44, since the accident wasn't noticed until the doors failed to open at the next stop. An R-32/38 C/R cab accident would have been noticed immeidately by any passengers in the car."
Wrong!!! It was an R-38.
#3984-3985 to be exact.
wayne
Well, thanks, but djf197 posted the infomation and I posted my reply a little earlier this evening. I'm still surprised it was an R-38, though the C/R may have had the door closed to the cab, which would have prevented anyone from noticing (and looking at the track map of the area, the platforms are all side ones around North Conduit, so the door could be closed for a while without and problem, since there's no reason to come out to change sides/cars until you get to the Grant Ave. station).
You are correct. It seems the cab door may have been closed for some reason. Passengers in the car heard an unusual noise leaving Aqueduct and later observed blood seeping from under the cab door. They broke into the cab at some point to assist the Conductor. The investigation is on-going.
so the door could be closed for a while without and problem, since there's no reason to come out to change sides/cars until you get to the Grant Ave. station
Actually, the TA rules state that on SMEE equipment (R32/33/36/38/40/42/62) the conductor is to keep the door open and stand in the doorway when not in the station, but that's irrelevant in this case as she would have been unable to open the door.
When I worked on cars that had little device that kept the door open, I usually used it. My thought was for this exact same reason, that if I should happen to hit my head or whatever, hopefully a passenger would see and help me if possible.
Unfortunately,
1. This wasn't common practice, many C/R's close the door and stay in the cab, and,
2. Most doors tend to close on their own for whatever reason.
The R62/62a's, the door are to be closed. More specifically, single R62a's.
Oh I'm sorry you're right, because those doors open outward. Didn't have the rulebook on hand so was just thinking of the equip with single width cabs off the top of my head.
The rule of thumb I've heard is that cab doors with windows stay closed while cab doors without windows are kept open. All transverse cab doors have windows, as do R-62A single cab doors.
I'm also assuming the train involved was an R-44, since the accident wasn't noticed until the doors failed to open at the next stop. An R-32/38 C/R cab accident would have been noticed immeidately by any passengers in the car.
The Newsday story says passengers opened the door of the cab, which means it was probbaly a 32 or 38. Cab doors on a 44 are supposed to remain locked.
That is really awful. My condolences to the family.
She was found fatally injured at Rockaway Blvd. The accident apparently happened leaving Aqueduct/North Conduit.
I am deeply sadened to hear about the accident on the A line. My deepest respects and condolences to her family and friends
John
Interesting Reading:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/14/nyregion/14TUNN.html?tntemail1
This was on Transit Transit a few months ago.
-AcelaExpress2005
How does one lose a fax machine on the subway ?
Bill "Newkirk"
How does one lose a fax machine on the subway ?
That's what's so funny about some of the crazy stuff they find.
The guy that lost his copy machine...how can you be lugging that around the subway one minute, and next say, oops I must've dropped it and forgotten it somewhere in the subway?
Will NJT be ordering anymore Self-Propelled cars, like the Arrows? The Comet V would look beautiful as a MU, instead of a Trailer. By The way Bombardier did a great job on the Comet V Cars, has anyone rode them yet?
-AcelaExpress2005
The Comet V is built by Alstom in Hornell not by Bombardier.
and no NJ Transit has no MU's on order
and a MU is not self propelled its a motor fed by a power station somewere else.
A self propelled car has its own power plant, like diesel / turbo/etc.
Not to be smart, but, why are RDCs, and NJTs DLRVs called DMUs? I always thought that the determining factor in deciding whether a car is Self Propelled was whether or not it required a locomotive to push or pull it. After all, it doesn't matter how much power you run through a Comet IV, it ain't going anywhere. At least the Arrow III has the equipment to move itself, yes it doesn't haul around a heavy diesel or fuel sucking turbine. Thus can dispense with the dead weight of a fuel tank, instead it leaves the power plant where it belongs, firmly fixed to the ground, with a coal pile far larger than any tender could move in less than 100 trips.
I suppose you could get really picky and complain that if an Arrow ran off the end of the catenary in Dover it won't go anywhere, but the same is true of a P32DM-AC (or RDC) running for too long between fuel stops and running out of fuel somewhere north of Croton-Harmon. Yes thats not likely to happen, but it is maybe slightly more likely than an Arrow running off the cat in Dover.
for the same reason a electric like a AEM7 is not a locomotive, but its a motoras power comes from outside.
but a P32 is an Engine but also a locomotive.
self propeled has nothing to do with fuel but fact that it generates its own power v.s. obtaining it from outside.
Locomotive, from Dictionary.com:
lo·co·mo·tive ( P ) Pronunciation Key (loke-motive)
n.
A self-propelled vehicle, usually electric or diesel-powered, for pulling or pushing freight or passenger cars on railroad tracks.
A driving or pulling force; an impetus: “The US could no longer serve as the locomotive for the world economy” (George Soros).
adj.
Of, relating to, or involved in locomotion.
Serving to put into motion or propel forward: “It may be that the founding fathers overestimated the locomotive force of the collective and mutual self-interest” (Ian Davidson).
Able to move independently from place to place.
Of or relating to a self-propelled locomotive.
Of or relating to travel.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Latin loc, from a place, ablative of locus, place + Medieval Latin motivus, causing motion; see motive.]
Thus an AEM7 is a locomotive, an Electric Locomotive. In the end the power that drives the train forward comes from the same place, the traction motors mounted either just above or in the trucks. It does not matter if the engine has to schlep it's powerplant, fuel and all, around with it, or if goes the lighter and hence more efficient route of leaving the powerplant laying on the ground. Think of the AEM7 as a relative of the Jawn Henry, just more sucessful, both take power from a coal fired steam turbines, just that the AEM7 maybe comes as close as 2 miles (Duck Island near Trenton NJ, anyone know a closer powerplant to the NEC?). Electrics will always be more powerful than Diesels of the same vintage, since they can tap into a much less limited power source.
to bad the Railroads are governed by FRA rules and not the Webster Dictionairy
"Electrics will always be more powerful than Diesels of the same vintage, since they can tap into a much less limited power source. "
And they don't carry any dead weight around with them (the diesel engine, its fuel tanks, and the alternator)
Heretofore, my understanding was MU = Multiple Units.
I can have a coal drag out here with five locomotives on the point, all MU'd together. The "MU" part has to do with the control ie: one engineer controls all of the units as one. Compare this to Steam Locomotives doing the same job, with a crew on each locomotive, trying to coordinate their movements.
I should think (FRA notwithstanding) that any machine that could pull a train around would be a locomotive. LIRR MU cars are treated by the FRA as locomotives, and as such are on an inspection schedule equal to that of locomotives rather than that of passenger cars.
A locomotive need not have an engine on board. An engine on a locomotive would be like an engine on an automobile: it generates power for some purpose. The power packs on the LIRR might be called "engines" (FA-2s ?) though they certainly were not "locomotives".
So a consist of self-propelled passenger cars are MU'd together. Maybe they also have trailers mixed in, but they must be able to pass the control back to the other cars that do have motors. So they must be capable of being MU'd, No? Likewise a conisit of unpowered passenger cars that has a locomotive at one end of the consit and a cab-control car at the other end. All of those cars must be MU'd with the same MU connections as our consist of locomotives, in order to pass the control commands back to the locomotive. (Even if it doesn't ahve an engine on it.) : )
And what of a road-slug: It has traction motors, but no engine, and no control stands or even a cab. It has WEIGHTS in it for traction, and gets both it's power and its control from the locomotive (engine?) to which it is attached.
Elias
Alstom did a f***king horrible job with those aluminum pieces of s**t! They are beautiful to a passenger, but to the crew...they suck. In order to open and close the doors you have to hold the door open button for 3 seconds, to make an announcement you have to hold the button for 3 to 4 seconds and have to hear 2 very annoying beeps (and they have horrible feedback). Occasionaly the doors don't trainline and you'll have to reset the breaker at every stop till it decides to act correctly. There is no trap in the cab for the engineer to exit in the yard or low level territory. I've even experienced the train making a penalty application and losing it head/ditchlights at every phase gap on the North Jersey Coast Line (there are quite a few phasegaps on that line). The only thing I like about them is the ride quality and the handbrake which is easy to apply.
NJT wants to get rid of the MU's in the future.
the Comet 1 > 4 are Aluminium, the Alstom Comet 5 is Stainless steel however. the trap on newer cab cars is eliminated for strenght at corner post as per FRA regulation no matter who would have built the car.
your problem with Phase gaps sounds like Battery breaker was off or Battery was dead not a Manufacturers problem but an MofE problem.
as far as crew its hard to teach old dogs new tricks :-)
"as far as crew its hard to teach old dogs new tricks :-)"
Hey, buddy. Unless you are or ever were a crew member on a passenger train, I suggest you refrain from making such comments. Having to deal with obnoxious or beligerent customers when things are running fine is bad enough. Try dealing with them while all of these time consuming "gizmos" and "defects" cause delays that normally do not occur on any other equipment.
I am for over twenty years employed in transportation department operating trains, plus a few years in Mechanical Dept.
so my point stands for old dogs. and new dogs are under trained in Choo Choo High :-)
However, the key word is PASSENGER trains. You could be in the business for 100 years and not know what it's like running PASSENGER trains. You can run all the freight trains you want and have no idea what it's like being confronted by customers demanding to know why a train is late. And relatively speaking, the Engineer has no contact with the public except when he or she is told to call for the police due to circumstances caused by a passenger.
The bottom line is that the Comet V's are "time wasting" equipment. It has nothing to do with "old dogs" or "new dogs". Who wants to spend extra time at each station waiting for the extra slow doors to open and close? Who wants to make informative announcements only to be delayed by the "new system"? NJ Transit even put out a safety rule that "when making announcements on Comet V equipment, please make sure you have a secure handhold when the traps are open". This was because the idiots who designed the equipment placed the PA's closer to the wall of the car, meaning when the traps are open, there is no place safe to stand when using the PA. Instead of you saying that "you can't teach old trainmen new tricks", you should say that "you can't teach morons how to design a safe and efficient passenger car".
I do run Passenger trains
Well then, I can't see how you can "dis" all trainmen like you did. But, then again, you are an engineer, and I do know some engineers who hate trainmen. As a result, we try to make their lives as miserable as possible.
The lives of only the engineers who hate trainmen, that is!
I don't dis anything, fishbowl but you sit here and trash your employers equipment, which Im sure is designed with imput from NJT.
maybe its the linkage between floor and doorkey that needs fixing.
I am sure there are improvements that can be made to equipment but the place is not here to promote that.
Union meetings and Company suggestion programs come to mind. sometimes a good talk at company engineering Dept. will work.
but I only see wrong approach.
First off, it was that guy "Moe" who started the ball rolling with the cuss words regarding the equipment. I was only backing him up when you made that comment about "old dogs".
It doesn't matter if there was "input from NJT", usually the ones who make the decisions don't and never did work the "front line". They are sitting up in their nice comfy offices staring at their degrees hanging on their walls after driving to work in their private automobiles. They might ride a train once a year for one or 2 stops as a token gesture, and usually we are fore-warned. That's when the maintenance people break out their "finest" equipment just for that rare occaision.
Maybe that's not how it is at the agency you work for, but that's how it is at most places around here.
Anyone who's been on this site for a little while knows the HIGHLY politicized environment in which the Dutchrailnut operates trains. He KNOWS what he is talking about. There are many professional railroad crews, but the professionals don't draw as much attention as the clowns (for obvious reasons). I won't say more than that about his employer, except to say that this organization has similar problems to NJT.
I think they look nice. But I haven't ridden or stepped inside one yet. But I will, someday....
---Brian
I rode one once on the Montclair-Boonton back on Halloween day.
The V's are all-around a great looking car, at least from the passenger viewpoint. I heard that they're very user-unfriendly crewwise, but in terms of looks, the V's are way retro! And that, in my opinion, is a definate plus.
Retro to what? P-70's?
Retro? No kidding, they still use the god aweful, acient trucks the others use. You'd think Alstom, after insisting on redesigning everything else, could have at least gone for something that's better than a 50's also ran subway car truck...
Hey now...PIONEER III TRUCKS RULE!!!!
They're not Pioneer IIIs, actually. They're some cast knock off made by Buckeye. Actually, not made by Buckeye - Buckeye kicked the bucket the other week and Alstom now has to find another supplier for them. Guess Buckeye forgot that other things can be made from cast metals besides RR parts, or else their reputation means nothing outside the rail world...
The Pioneer III was a great design, and typical Budd - light, bulletproof, simple. The only real drawback they have is they ride like shit, even on decent track.
God damit, I liked Buckeye. They were a good corporation. Why do all the good corporations have to go out of bussiness. Who will make railroad castings now? Bombardier?
Castings? What are those? :)
Seriously, with cast trucks being passe pretty much anywhere outside North America, and on the way out around here, I don't know. I suspect some other casting firm can or will, there are a few others out there.
Buckeye? IMHO, they should have stopped whining about the state of the RR industry and moved in to casting other stuff. Change or die. Lots of firms do it.
Hey, back in the late 40's, an aircraft electronics firm out in California found their lucrative military contracts had run out (end of WWII). So, the company branched out into magnetic recording and became one of the most respected names in studio tape recorders.
Can you guess who they were? :)
Hint - they also released the first practical video tape recorder. Bonus points for naming the now famous engineer who helped design it. (hint hint - you'd associate his name with big movies, not videotape)
Buckeye also made knuckle couplers. In England they were referred to as Buckeye couplers.
The Comet V and pending Bi-Level push/pull coaches are the lastet to be purchased by NJ Transit. Arrow MU's or any type of MU will not be purchased in the future. NJ Transit claims that it costs more to run MU's because they each have to follow the FRA guidelines of railroad locomotives. Each car is considered a loco, therefore each car costs a penny for inspections. I read that NJ Transit will purchase only push/pull equipment for future orders. I'm not sure how much longer the Arrow III's will still be running. I would assume they may keep a few single units for the Princeton Shuttle. It would not make sense to run one cab car with an ALP44 on such a short run. Then again, it might be converted to work as a light rail line, which I hope doesn't happen.
NJ Transit claims that it costs more to run MU's because they each have to follow the FRA guidelines of railroad locomotives. Each car is considered a loco, therefore each car costs a penny for inspections.
Yes, I have of course know all of this, but it is interesting that MNRR and LIRR are committed to MU equipment.
I presume there are outweighing advantages to this choice too, such as faster starts and stops, more frequen stops perhaps?
Elias
All that is true. Try explaining that to NJT management.
Both LIRR and MTA operate a mixed bag of loco hauled Push Pull sets and MUs, SEPTA is similar (probably the most MUs per Pushpull sets ratio of all four NE commuter operations), but NJT seems to be trying to rid itself completely of MUs. That makes no sense, since NJT has some lines like the Montclair branch where the locals have station stops every few miles.
For once SEPTA seems to have the best idea, probably one that is worth emulating by NJT and MTA, they run all locals as silverliner MU trains and the fastest expresses as Push Pull AEM7-Shoreliner sets. Which makes sense, the push pull sets cannot keep the local schedule with their slower acceleration, but are fine on the longer runs that an express has. Plus placing push-pull sets on express trains saves wear and tear on the FRA inspected MU sets, they don't need to run at anything like high speed which save hugely on maintenance. Both MUs and Push Pull trains have their place, an electric commuter railroad with tight scheduling cannot afford to go for just one or the other form of train.
Montclair Branch is no longer. It is now known as the Montclair-Boonton Line. The connection from Bay Street opened in September, 2002.
A very logical post. I agree with you.
IIRC the Arrow III's were GOH'ed in 1990. So presumably they could run another ten years (taking into account that railcars built in the "X" generation last 40 years [which has been a good example to follow {from the NYC Subway Cars}])
I do prefer the new Comets (IV and V) over the Arrow III's but Arrow III's have their character for being MU's which brings in a whole new story.
According to the NJ state transportation department, there are plans to overhaul the Arrow II carfs for a second time. If the overhaul keeps them as caternary or convertgs them to push pull (like I do not know. Perhaps 5201 fishbowl might know. the Arrow I cars became the CometI cars).
My own opinion- I like the Arrows sicne they are or seem fast and even NJT admits they ar e the fastest in the fleet. The longest trains the fleet(12 cars at times) are Arrows but that may chahge when the ALP46 is fully delivered since they can handle 10 bilevel or 12 single level aars.
I notice too that the Arrows accelate and stop smoother - at least in my perception.
The Arrows have more flexibility in adjusting their speed faster than locomotive-hauled trains, thus, braking could be rougher than the Comets but I've been on Comets where you come to a rough stop. (Rough as in smooth rough)
It's really up to what kind of engineer you have. I'm sure there are extremities to how severe you can apply the regular brakes aside from its emergency brake.
I thought Amtrak was just painting the P42's into Phase V, but check this out:
http://www.transitalk.org/Photos/GChatterton/112502/Amtrak_GE_709.jpg
-AcelaExpress2005
Currently 3 units are in Willy Whale scheme.
and one is in Beech Groove for painting.
709 - 705 ?? and ??
The P32 has been in Phase V since the Summer.Now the Phase V is suppose to be the companies new look
I'd have to go with Concourse/ Mosholu Yards, they do a fantastic jobs and why the cars out of there have such a low high MDBF. It's fantastic.
If you're talking about MDBF, then I'd go with the Jerome yard (4).
We are being careful to differentiate Yard from Shop, aren't we (the two are not always the same)?
Corona, is definately the worse. I imagine the old birds are harder to clean then stainless steel, though.
Yes but consider that Corona has to put enough trains on EVERY weekday to maintain 90 second headways during rush hour. Corona has done this continuously since 90 second headways began in the sixties.
I'm sure they can have clean cars while doing that once the entire facility is reconstructed.
Since subway cars are "taken care of" in shops, not yards, I'd say that each yard takes care of its cars in the same way. As to shops, there is a monthly compilation of Mean Distance Between Failures by shop. I don't get it, but "Train Dude" posts information from it from time to time. Perhaps he (or someone else who gets it) will favor us with the latest information.
David
If you look at quality of maintenance in terms of MDBF, then I'd have to vote for Concourse Shop - of course. Concourse Shop for the year 2002 had a moving MDBF of 174,000 miles. In addition, there has not been an in-service failure of a Concourse train since December 17. Of course, you also have to consider that Concourse has 232 cars, puts out 23 trains and travels about 1,000,000 miles each month. Jamaica, on the other hand, has 1178 cars, puts out over 120 trains per day and travels about 6 million miles each month.
Keep in mind that MDBF is only one measure of maintenance quality. Timely completion of modifications & programmed maintenance, ammenities and cleanliness are also measures of the quality of maintenance. The fact is that some subway cars are more maintenance-intensive than others. I'd be hard pressed to compare the maintenance done on the R-68s at Concourse with the maintenance done on R-44s at pitkin based only on MDBF. I'd like to think that the team at Pitkin is just as dedicated and hard working.
Corona by far.
... Is the worst
..kind of beer.
The yard is the best IMO.
Best shops/yards have to go to the following:
Concourse, Jerome, Coney Island, Westchester, 207 Street, Corona, and East New York.
I am prediJUICED!!! The East 180th Street crew located at 239th is the most senior aged junior crew in the system. We took all those broken down #2/#5 Redbirds with poor MDBF and fixed them up....those trainsets are over fourty years old....made them the BEST in the system and now watch em sink to the fishies!!! The records are there in our face and our beloved Deputy Superintendent just got a promotion. We're putting the R142s back together too to run as best as they can with what we have to work with. I'm proud of my crew and proud to be a part of them.
The last pick brought most of my class together and I'm praying the next pick will keep us together. I will choose to remain...TrainDude once emailed me that I will move up in seniority. Five pages of CIs after me...I'm 1158 and permanent. I'll stick to 180th 'troubles' but always the option for 207th or Concourse. CI Peter
Do you think today's "tech revolution" cars will survive 40+ years as did the Redbirds, R-1/9s and R-10s? I know a lot of this has to do with how the yard/shop people care for them, but still two things:
1) the "tech revolution" cars have equipment on them, like computerization, which affects their MDBF because there's more that can fail;
2) the old "they don't make 'em like they used to" refrain. I think it's applicable here.
Thoughts?
I never understood the "they don't make 'em like they used to" saying. Being an engineering student, I know that there is NO engineer on the planet that would say one day, "Hmmm, that assembly works TOO well, let's design a crappier assmebly." If the company wants to save money, then they wouldn't bother spending money on a new design. If a company decides actually to make a cheaper, poorer model, then they won't last too long in business anyway.
CIPeter has mentioned before that the 142s are much cleaner to work on than the Redbirds. So all that computer equipment is for making Peter's job much easier. The easier the job, the longer it will last.
I understand what you're saying. But I remember when subway cars were built using the KISS principle and the TA put them directly into service when delivered. There have been problems with the new cars, as there were with the Acela trainsets. I just don't see the new cars being as rugged as were the cars of my youth. Look at the designs of some of the old cars...the standards ran for 55 years, and the Lo-Vs almost as long. Of course, I may be nostalgic, and I may be wrong about the new cars, but I don't think so. I've too many experiences with "modern" items performing very poorly when compared to their "older" counterparts. (For example I have a rotary phone that's about forty years old. It has outlasted FIVE cordless ones.)
Standards were purchased over a period of many years. Not one of them lasted more than 50 years.
Besides, how can you say that the new tech cars haven't lasted 50 years? They haven't because they weren't around that long, not because they can't.
For example I have a rotary phone that's about forty years old. It has outlasted FIVE cordless ones.
BAD EXAMPLE. If this rotary phone was so great, why did you buy other phones? It's obvious that you gained greater utility from the cordless phones and probably used them more often. Besides, with all of the new features they create with high tech stuff today, I'd rather have something cheap that can be replaced in a few years then be stuck with something obsolete for 40 years because it "works."
'KISS' was somehow overlooked in selection of New Technology trainsets. 'E-cam' was sucessful and the way to go...New Techs burp and lose communication in the trainset resulting in TTs. Pirelli made the best model airplane rubber bands...wind em up and they flew. CI Peter
I don't recall any contract of car that was put 'right into service'. Even when we were putting the GOH R-46 cars back into service, we did 'simulated service' testing of every car. Before you get to that point, there must be testing to insure that the new technology works. Each and every contract had some component of new technology when new.
The R-142As and the other new-tech cars are the first cars in since the R-44 / R-46 that have incorporated so many innovations at one time. This meant that crews had to be trained, as did mechanics. The new technology also had to be proven reliable. That is why NYCT took its time getting the cars on board.
As for whether it was worth it........ I think this month's MDBF numbers will be a suprise to most.
Trainsets are cleaner because they use friction pads and lack grease fittings. Computers in R142s are 99 mHz 486s in TODs. What is happening is that systems don't comm on the LANs together during faults. The work would be easier if we all carried pre-programmed
PDFAs with the proper connectors for troubleshooting but we don't.
Redbirds are nasty/dirty/greasy but 'electromechanical in your face.'
Like Williams pinballs...now lost in history. CI Peter
486s!!?? What the F**K? I know these trains have been in design for years, but damn, they couldn't fit in a new processor at production time?
Where in the hell did they find the chips since they been out of production for a number of years now.
486's are powerefull when not loaded up with the lattest microsoft artery clogging software. I run linxs on my 486 33. It flawlessly serves as a loyal print server.
True story- Microsofts goal is to load up it's product with new features that require increasing more powerful processors and more memory.
What's the functional difference from Word 2.0 (5 1.44 disks) and work xp for the average user. Not much. The average word prossing user does not use 90% of the new features but the newer version chews up more resourses requiring a more powerful computer.
"The work would be easier if we all carried pre-programmed
PDFAs "
It's a discrace that after 2 years of operation the MTA has not outfitted you guys with the proper equiptment to work on these cars
The only blame upon MTA in the matter of the use of PTE laptops was the 'lack of accertiveness.' The programs used for interrogation and downloads of R142 trainset systems are so small that any decent PDA from Staples or CompUSA could be used. The PDFA would be specifically
programmed as a tool. We could check door operators, HVAC and simulate propulsion/braking ans so much more. The union says we should be 'trained' and receive extra pay...the vendors release nothing. My crew has the use of one ruggedised Win95 laptop for ten cars with over one hundred systems to interrogate. My crew for the mostpart wants to learn/work/do. TA loses saving pennies....we apply Redbird Tech skills to find and repair. What a wonder it would be to have a PDA for me to carry specifically programed for 'troubles.' Just to pass over the simplicity of the trainset....TOD console uses a 486 at 99 mHz. Pretty far beyond Midway 'Space Invaders' running Z-80 at 3.66 mHz. I'll go one more step forward...i do not know R160/170 proposals but I do know you can aim your PDA at a phone booth to get an area map with bara and restaraunts via infra red linkage. Just aim your PDFA at a door operator to find out a broken switch. Not StarTrek....just now. CI Peter
You figure the R44 and R46 would have taught them a lesson.
In "Subway Lives" by Ellis Henican, he quotes a CI Shop worker who says of the R-44 "Those cars bought houses for people" citing all the OT spent by shop folks just fixing, and fixing, and fixing them. Then the R-46 with the Rockwell trucks...well, I remember in 1980 the R-46s and R-10s switched assignments because of this: The mess-up with the R-46s had them on the CC in 6-car trains, and the 10s were on the E (and F, in November 1980).
Go figure.
Bombardier R142s will do the same IF TA doesn't dump them like Grumman Flexible buses. I could quite conceiveably believe that I'd be troubleshooting and modifying these trainsets till retirement IF TA gave me the tools and system training. There is a plan to hire Bombajunkers as 'New Train Technology Specialists' but most of Bombers have no idea of what they are doing without direct supervision. TA needs us to do RTO repairs NOW and I accept the extra
work....holding up a trainset for a couple of dollars of parts for a few days costs big time. My crew is experienced in these trainsets...we find more things wrong, work the extra time and put them back into operation. Thursday is Redbirds for East 180th....soon to end. My crew is of unimaginable value to TA living in 'provisional limbo.' The next union pick is coming up and I'm afraid most of the crew will be lost in 'seniority Diaspora.' CI Peter
BTW: Tonight is 'Rat Ratification.'
My experience in EMS has been that when the manufacturer's reps are called in to look at our trucks, they tend often as not to NOT fix the problem. Our diesel mechanics who have been working on diesels all their lives usually end up in conflict with the reps and guess what...our guys are usually RIGHT. If in transit the cars need repairs now, can the TA do an in-service with its own crews, and avoid the reps altogether? Why not keep the crew together, put 'em on permanently, and count the savings down the road?
The R-44 and R-46 DID teach NYCT a lesson. That's why the agency went back to "tried and true" with the R-62 through R-68A cars. When it came time to order the next batches of cars, NYCT was again cautious before venturing into new technology, buying an IRT train and a BMT-IND train as test beds (the R-110s) to see what would work and what would not.
In short, the latest procurements were not gone into blindly. Over time, most, if not all, of the new car classes should prove themselves stellar performers.
David
When is the next NYCsubway.org photo contest supposed to be?
I hope not until late summer so I can go out and get more shots in the warmer and sunnier weather.
---Brian
..........lets go.........right now can hardly wait.......!!!!!!!
Got a voicemail message from Doug Diamond moments ago, who witnessed R-142s being delivered to Linden Yard by the NY and Atlantic. He wanted me to relay this message, and said he took photos of the delivery in progress.
I expect the delivery up at the East by nightfall.
-Stef
Are the car Numbers 7146-7150?
No. I went over my images and the cars are 6941-45....my on guess is that 7146-7150 was delivered between Wed and Friday...must've slipped past Stef's sharp eyes! :)
I'll try and get a couple posted here by Tuesday.
6941-45 came down Thursday Morning from Plattsburgh to FP.
Speaking of those dashing beauties, they came by my door on the way up to the East at 9:45PM.
-Stef
Excellent! Right on schedule...the NY&A > NYCT is the same M.O. as was done almost from the start. The cars would arrive late Wed/early Thru. at FP via CP Rail. They would then get offloaded from the flats and linked together on Saturday mornings by both NY&A and an MTA contracting team. Then the move would take place alittle after 12noon....then after the evening "rush", the move is made by MOW diesels to the Bronx.
BTW, also got a shot of one M-7 on a flat at FP. It was car #7006. It was a single unit all by it's lonesome self...odd.
Of course. The lone M7 will join her companions soon enough.
7006? Wasn't that the first M7 to be delivered initially? Did it go back to Plattsburgh?
-Stef
"7006? Wasn't that the first M7 to be delivered initially? Did it go back to Plattsburgh?
-Stef"
The first M-7's arrived for testing without seating. They had to return to Plattsburgh for seat installation and other modifications.
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks for the clarification.
-Stef
Why do the lower level platforms of the 4 and 5 trains at 59 St/Lexington Av have IND tile work while the upper level platforms for the 6 has IRT tile work?
The subway timetable on this site, which list when the stations were built said 59th street station was built in two different time periods the upper was ready for service in 1918, the lower level express didnt have platforms until 1959, maybe that was the reason? maybe other sub talkers can fill you in on this.
59th Street was originally a local only station. The lower level was built in order to convert the station into an express station in the 50's.
Thank you for the information.
That is definitely the reason....It was around this time (late 50's/early 60's) that several local platforms on the Lex were extended.
I used to take the 6 to 103rd Street to visit my Grandmother and remember that the "IND tile" was used on the EXTENED portion of those two platforms. IIRC the extensions were also at 110 & 116. There may have been other stations also.
A footnote also the upper level has pillars, dividing the trains, the lower, concrete.
Since 59 St was a local only station until 1959 or so, maybe that's why the lower level have IND tiling.
Until a few years ago, the lower level of 59th Street had the turquoise tile you see on unrestored station extensions such as Spring and Bleecker Streets. The faux-IND tile was put on during a renovation.
The year was not 1959, it was 1962.
If enough people repeat incorrect facts and nobody corrects them because that would be "nitpicking" and thus wrong, then a whole new generation doesn't know the real answer.
If it wasn't for me or someone else posting this, then a new Subtalker would have thought it was 1959.
Also, while I'm at it:
The trip cocks on the 7 line are on the RIGHT side, just like the rest of the IRT.
The R-32 and R-38 front end signs and nearly all digital bus signs contain flip dots, not LEDs or LCDs. The side signs on the R-44, R-46, R-110A/B, R-142 and R-143 are LCDs, not LEDs. The bulkhead signs on the R-142 and R-143 contain LEDs, and are not LCDs.
The walls of Grand Street station are actual walls with earth behind them, they are not false walls like at Lexington/63, there are no trackways behind them.
There is no station or station shell at 212th and Hillside
and...
THERE IS NO STATION AT 76TH AND PITKIN!!!
Maybe no station there. But there was supposed to be a route going along that way.And the tower board SAYS there was supposed to be a station at 76 St. And this shows there was going to be a route.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-conduct0119,0,6217983.story?coll=ny%2Dnynews%2Dheadlines
side signs of the R143 ARE LEDs
Don't want to Knitpick, but you left out the dirt behind the walls at Woodhaven Blvd on QB.
avid
And the line over Jamaica Avenue never had an express track down the center (except at 111th and 160th Street).
Yes, great, we need a list of these things!
The R143 side signs ARE LED's. Yes, someone else who believes *THERE IS NO 76 STREET STATION!*
Also, the slant ends of a R40 DOES NOT reduce seating capacity.
OK, correction noted about the R-143. I don't have as much experience with the R-143 as with the R-142. I didn't mention what the interior digital ads are, because I wasn't sure, but I suspected they were LED-based.
Yes it does.The older models [R32/38]are albe to rest 56 passagers,while the R40S/40M/42 CAR CLASS has the seating arragement of an smaller IRT car[42-46 passengers].The end bonnets did reduce seating,but for standing room,there was, and is plenty....these cars ,by far,had the quickest response time[besides the R32]than any other cars in the system.Here is where you would forgive them,so to speak.. they were fast.
R-32/R-38=50 seats
R-40/R-42=44 seats
The constraining factor is the width of the doorways, not the presence of the larger fiberglass end bonnet.
David
How could the slant end on the R-40 reduce seating capacity on the R-40M or R-42?
NOPE. Rid a R32 or R38 then ride a R40 and look at the doors, the R40 doors are considerably wider than most rolling stock which reduces the seating capacity. BTW, the R32 and R38 seats up to 50 passengers, not 56.
And another one I remembered:
Queens streets were numbered in May, 1925, not 1915.
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I've read things in the past on how Utica Av was supposed to have a subway line but as we see, it never happened, just a piece was built over the Utica Av station on the A & C. Do you guys think a Utica Av subway would be beneficial or would it make things worse? I think it would work out; it would most likely ease crowding on the B46. I was thinking it could start from Kings Plaza and run via Utica but I can't think of where the northern terminal would be at.
BTW, Where was the Utica subway supposed to go originally?
I would like your opinions on this.
You can find some information
Yikes... Mouse, you had a bit of a problem.
Yes, I hit the post button a bit too soon... corrected on the next one :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You can find some information here on Joe Korman's website.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I liked the 1968 IRT extension south from Eastern Parkway. IIRC, some type of construction was done in anticipation of this.
Yes, there are turnouts from the 3 line tracks at Utica Ave. More visible on the Manhattan bound tracks.
Heed the message. :)
I'm glad I have French Connection on video tape. I can watch anytime I want without commercial interruption.
I hate the new AMC. The old AMC would show movies uncut without interruption. Now they have commercials. That's why I don't watch AMC anymore.
Bill "Newkirk"
Does anyone watch AMC anymore?
A perfectly good movie channel gone to waste!
I still watch it. I'm ticked off that the "Three Stooges" and the "Little Rascals" are not played anymore. I even have the "French Connection" on DVD. I love that shot of the Nedicks Stand by the shuttle where "Popeye" is chasing "Frog 1" or "Weasel 1" or whatever. And you can't beat the "chase scene" under the old West End line. And with a Sea Beach N train too. Maybe a special GO was used for the movie( LOL). At least SeaBeachFred has his favorite train in a movie.
I like the "FBI story with James Stewart, great shots of my beloved Low V's, on the Woodlawn Line and the old Yankee Stadium, havent seen this movie in a while AMC is gearing towards more recent movies and ugh commercials. The best "old New York City" movie is of course the Naked City.
Oh no. Best movie: The Taking of Pelham 123. The original, not cheesey remake.
Naked City has a scene where one of the defectives gets off a Low V at one of the Queens Blvd viaduct stations on the Flushing Line to go home.
So true, that's why I dont have cable, PERIORD. Why should I pay $50 a month for what? More commercials? Succumbing to a monopoly? The same movie you saw on AMC was just on Channel 9 in New York last November. Still hate the grittyness edited for television when Popyeye Doyle "interogates" potential suspects in the bar scene, you already know the profanity. (The first scenes in the movie use the old OJ, KK Brooklyn Broadway line as backdrops near Marcy Avenue and further down like Ralph Avenue if I'm not mistaken. Someone told me that was the old Myrtle Ave El. but that was abandoned in 1969, two years before the movie was made)
Which means I will start a new topic for today: Do we miss those restaurants at Times Square (I miss THAT one cause former TA president David Gunn killed that eatery), and if so, can we have pros and cons of the MTA leasing space for eateries?
Were these old eateries inside fare control?
Yes, the one at Times Square was between the Broadway BMT staircases and the Shuttle platforms. The other eatery shown in the "French Connection" film as you can see, is inside the fare control area at Grand Central side of the Shuttle.
Contrary to popular belief, there was no gyro stand at Queens Plaza, as depicted in an infamous Seinfeld episode.
"The other eatery shown in the "French Connection" film as you can see, is inside the fare control area at Grand Central side of the Shuttle."
According to the commentaries on the DVD, that eatery was built specifically for the movie; there actually was no eatery there.
Yes. They were a poor railfan's best friend.
They were both inside and outside, but I guess mostly inside of the fare control. Not only were there eateries, but there was a very nice paperback bookstore inside the fare control at 34th street on that ramp down to the BMT. I used to buy Perry Masons there for 35 and later 50 cents each.
There were also pop machines all over the place (dispensing postmix in a paper cup with ice.) (Haven seen any sort of a vending machine like that since the 70s! And do you remember the gum machines with their Dentine gum wedged into the spaces of the pillars.
Better at least that the stores, resturants and newsstands return to the subways. At least the TA will be able to collect rent from them. Just require that they 1) keep their environs clean, and 2) that they provide a CLEAN restroom to their customers.
Elias
So true, that's why I dont have cable, PERIORD. Why should I pay $50 a month for what? More commercials? Succumbing to a monopoly?
Cable isn't a monopoly. There's always Dish Network and DirecTV.
DirecTV offers the DirecTV DVR with TiVo technology. BEST THING SINCE ELECTRICITY! Also makes that satellite bill a lot useful, since you can watch everything you want to watch, when YOU want to watch it.
There's a TiVo for antenna and cable users, but it's more expensive, you can only record one thing at once and the monthly fee is three times as much.
Hey, theres a show on discovery right now about america's most dangerous intersections and traffic in general. At the very least they are making one heck of a case for expanding transit in and around cities. Among the roads they've highlighted:
Roosevelt and Grant in the Philadelphia northeast; 357 collisions and 14 lanes of traffic converging on one point. Roosevelt Ave is arguably the single most dangerous road in the country. The one thing was that the clips of the intersection showed NABI Septa busses and cutaway vans along the avenue.
Flamingo and Pines in Florida, rated the most dangerous by State Farm
and
Queens Blvd in NY; 12 lanes with a 30mph speed limit, however it was a Moses product, designed as a high speed roadway, with most people doing 40mph avg speed. 76 ped have been killed on the so called 'Boulevard of death' which traffic engineers consider much too wide for pedestrians to cross fully in the alloted 60 seconds. Which is just enough for a healthy adult to cross in a healthy clip, much too little for an older or younger person to cross.
With all this, and several more intersections that I left off, it really makes a hell of a lot more sense to take transit, either busses or trains. Heck, Queens Blvd has a subway under it, why can't people just take that? Roosevelt Ave desperately needs a subway or elevated near it.
I'm hoping that they'll come to the conclusion that the way to lessen traffic related collisions is to reduce the number of cars on the road by improving transit alternatives, like installing Subway, Light rail and improving bus service. However, I fear that they'll merely decide that intersection cameras, intelligent lights, and other 'High Tech Improvements' which do not decrease the actual number of cars on the road, and as such do not impinge upon drivers rights. Its too bad that we recognize the problem, but cannot bring ourselves to expend the necessary amounts of money to actually decrease the number of cars on a road, which really is the only way to make intsections safer.
Hehe, as a side note, they just claimed that the 'Roundabout' or traffic circle is the answer to our prayers for intersection safety. LMAO! Clearly they have never seen the circles in New Jersey, which are nightmares of traffic engineering. Also now they're talking about interchanges, another thing New Jersey is known for, and probably another thing that creates the traffic nightmare that is rush hour down here in Southeast Jersey.
Not only does Queens Blvd. have a four-track subway under it, EVERY subway station under QB has a pedestrian underpass. You can safely cross QB anywhere there is a station. However, this is not enough. Older people sometimes have difficulty negotiating stairs, and the stations themselves are spaced far enough apart that walking to one to cross the street would be silly. But the other half of the problem is this: Pedestrians on the Boulevard of Death are known for crossing QB everywhere EXCEPT the crosswalk.
The city has put up fencing to discourage this. But even THAT's not enough. The fact is, there's a superhighway running through the heart of Queens, and that's it. Everybody can do something to render QB safe, but nobody WANTS to.
Well, I have to say that that was one of the most frusterating shows I have ever seen on the subject. Not one single mention of transit as a relief for crowded and dangerous roads (although they did mention urban sprawl as a determing factor in creating such conditions). They didn't even say a peep about the Queen Blvd IND, nor anything about the proposed Roosevelt Ave Subway. Ridiculous, even a mention of Bus Rapid Transit would have been an improvement. The very suggestion that Circles and Jughandles are the answer to our prayers is un-friggin-believable, and shows that their "traffic experts" were little more than advocates for the car industry at best. There is no way that traffic related accidents can be reduced with a constant number of cars on the road. Heaven forbid people's "rights" to own and operate a car should be challenged, it's good to see that the spirit of Robert Moses is alive and well in the design of our roadways.
BTW: the show will be on again at 10pm, and may be on next saturday around midday or early afternoon.
Ok everybody, here's my full chicago trip report. I will post photos and details of my STATE tower visit in another post.
I got a ride to the PATCO station on Monday the 13th and despite 20 min headways I managed to make it into Philly and then into 30th St. by 3:10 to catch my 3:50 departing Three Rivers to Chicago. They boarded us on the train sometime around 3:45 and I got "assigned" a lineside isle seat. Needless to say I was totally pissed off an as soon as the cafe car opened I moved there. When I took out my camera the crew asked me what I was taking pics of and I replied CORK tower. This led to the conversation that led to them offering to take me up to STATE tower in HBG.
At HBG I was led up to STATE and left in the charge of the tower operator. We chatted about towers, tower news, tower operations and he even posed for pictures doing various tower things like throwing levers and answering the block line. Several quick neat things was that I got to throw a switch on the big Model 14 machine and the operator was also using old PRR stationary for scratch paper.
I was a little worried about missing my train, but the STATE operator told me not to worry as my train wasn't going anywhere w/o his say so. When I did go back to the train the C/R on the platform was like "you know this train would have left the station by now usually" and I replied, "don't worry, I was hanging out with the tower operator". Needless to say the C/R gave me this wierd look.
From HARRIS to ALTO I mostly tried to sleep as it was dark out and I had already verified that the PRR Position Lights on this side of ALTO were intact. I had meant to wake up at TYRONE so that I could ride in the rear vestabule on the 3-track raceway from CP-GRAY to ALTO, but I overslept and woke up at ALTO. By this point some seats had begun to free up and I was now able to get a full lineside and trackside view back a few cars. Once we departed ALTO and the crew retreated to the cafe car I went back in the vestabule for the ride around the Horseshoe curve and up over the mountain crest at AR (Galitizen). The PRR signals on this stretch had been converted to approach lighting so the ride was not as fun as it could be. Comming down the hill I was pleasantly surprised to see C tower still in operation and PRR signals reigning supreme in Johnstown. However comming into PBH I noticed some new gantry mounted traffic light signals approaching CP-PITT, but the home signals at CP-PITT were still intact.
The ride down the "Freight NEC" (Pittsburgh to Conway ie CP-PENN to CP-ROCHESTER) was somewhat marred by less than peppy running speeds and some bad signals around CP-LEETS. The Youngstown line was uneventful, but the big news was that we had clear sailing from about Youngstown to Willard on CSX trackage. This is usually where the Three Rivers gets major delays. Furthermore, the B&O CPL's on this stretch of line were all intact. I also got to see the CSX tower at Newton Falls OH. Our train made an unschedualed stop at Willard to pick yo about 15 deadhead CSX crewmembers. It was at about this point that I fell asleep. When I woke up it was light out, although it was a near whiteout out the windows due to all the blown snow. The passages in between cars were also winter wonderlands due to the fine powder getting up between cars. We chanced onto the NS Chicago line and I got a good pic of HICK tower as well as the Quad Draws over the Port of Chicago channel. The day was nice and sunny so I got a lot of pics between there and Union station. UP, METRA, NS and Amtrak's 21st St. Tower.
Much to my chigrin we arrived 5 minutes EARLY and I was forced to wait 2.5 hours in the old Chicago Union Station waiting room for my friend who was meeting me. She eventually showed up and escorted me to the CNW station. However when I got to the CNW station I found that he CNW station had been demolished and replaced with something called the Ogilive Transportation Center. Anyone care to explain this one?
I took some pictures of the station throat at the end of the platform and I noticed the active LAKE ST. tower and all the dwarf semephore signals. UP had also installed a number of US&S B&O style CPL dwarf signals in the interlocking. A friendly driver of a UP boom truck stoped and gave me his e-mail address to send copies of my Photos to.
We caught the 12:25 train to Kenosha and I was very impressed with the Metra Bi-Level cars. They RFW was great as well as the view from the upper portion. The only suggestions I can make is get rid of the green window tint and add 3-2 seating on the lower level and 2-1 seating on the upper level. The space as it is is greatly under-utilized. I got a kick out of the "Southpaw" CNW lines and also noticed the CNW fixed Automatic Train Stop system was still in service. For a line that should in theory support 90 mph operations, the METRA trains, even the expresses, were rather pokey and I estimated the speeds to be abour 60-70 max. The ride to Lake Forrest was very enjoyable, the towns along the line were very nice and the stations were pretty. Question, can anyone tell me why the CNW runs backwards? There was a blurb at the Lake Forrest Station, but I didn't get a chance to read it.
I spent Tue evening w/ my Friend at Lake Forrest, but I was out early on Wenesday for an exciting railfan day out on the town. I caught the 8:25 express into CNW station and then walked to the Randolph St. station. It took me about 25 minutes of circling to actually find the station. I was looking for something like Suburban with a nice office building entrance, but all it was was a hole in the ground at a St. corner. I caught the 10:30 train to University Park on the Metra Electric Div. i saw the partially completed New Soldier Field and a lot of METRA hi-liners in the yard. The Hi-liner RFV was pretty good and the crew didn't give me any guff about using it. The one thing that I could not understand was the METRA faregate system. The C/R's still collect tickets on the train so the faregates were totally redundant. Because i didn't leave fare control at University park I got to keep one of my tickets.
I got off at 59th St / UoC in order to walk to the 55th St Green Line station. I also wanted to find some place to eat. While I did make it to the Green Line station w/o freezing my ass off, I was unable to find anywhere to eat so I did the entire day on a cup or morning oatmeal. Anyway, I rode the Green Line into the loop and I was very impressed with the speed. I noticed the CTA's odd use of hand operated crossovers everywhere. I'd sure hate to have a service disruption on those lines.
I also learned why NYC got rid of all of its EL's. Despite their nice speed, the Chicago EL's are cheaply built and clearly a stopgap measure that exceeded their life expectancy by about 40 years. The structureal steel is far too light, the platforms are wooden, the crossties are far enough appart to leave gaps through which a worker could fall. There are no walkways, few power interlockings, from what I understand no original signaling system, lots of 90o curves, super short lightweight cars and trains that are too short. Chicago really needs an IND system built about 60 years ago. For anyone with a time machine, this is top priority.
After the Green Line I transfered to the Blue Line st State and then went to the UIC station where I got one going back. I was elated to see US&S pneumatic signaling from there to the center city. I got off at Jackson to transfer to the Red Line only to find that the connection had been closed. This forced me to walk the entire length of the "long station" to madison and then transfer to the Red Line.
I took the Red Line to Belmont where I got on a Brown Line train to see the Grade Crossings. While I was about to take some pics of the all Pneumatic Bellmont interlocking, some rent-a-cop security guard started giving me BULLSHIT about not being allowd to take photographs on the CTA. Not wanting to confront this non-CTA idiot-guard I got off the train and caught another.
I took the Brown line back to Belmont and then took the Red Line to Howard. I was not impressed w/ the speed of the Red Line and I was a but put off that the CTA did not run the Purple Line express trains all day. They could learn something from NYC. By Howard I was loosing light fast, but I caught the Skokie Swift to Skokie and back (grr, had to pay an extra fare), before catching the Purple Line to Evanston Davis St where I walked over to catch the 4:25 express train back to Lake forrest.
The next day I went w/ my friend into town via the 12:25 Metra train from Lake Forrest. From the CNW station we caught an Orange Line train around the loop (her suggestion) to get to State to transfer to a Blue Line train to Western to go to a good mexican food place she knew. After eating we got back on the Blue and then transfered to an Orange so that I could ride out a ways and see some of the more famous rail junctions in the Chicago area including 21st St. Unfortunately it was getting rather dim out and my pictures didn't turnout very well. My poor companion did not realize what she was getting into when I suggested that we get off at Roosevelt for a "quick" walk. She didn't complain much when I when proceeded to walk her all the way back to Union Station with two stops over both the PRR and NYC station approaches in order to take pictures. Before you judge me I did pay for lunch and her round trip train ticket so I felt I was owed a little something :) Oh, BTW did I mention that I was carrying like 30-40 pounds worth of duffle bag and backpack this whole time?
We hung out in Union Station until 6:00 where I them proceeded to walk her back to the CNW station to catch the 6:30 Super Express back to Lake Forrest. I bid her farewell and then hoofed it back to US, bags and all, to wait for my return train, the Lake Shore Limited. Unfortunately my train was delayed about 90 minutes due to equipment troubles so my 7:45 depart train departed around 9:15. The LSL was comprised of non-refurbished Amfleet I's and there were no at-seat outlets. HOWEVER, fellow Subtalker and ShoreLine Trolley voulenteer David Shanske was on hand with a dollar store extension cord and he located and plugged into the cleaning staff outlet. Another passenger's splitter yeiled us 5 usable outlets for labtops, cell phone recgargers and my battery recharger for my digital camera. Dave and I quickly interfaced and, sitting together, I used my scanner and timetables to plot our course while he used wireless web to access out train's status from Amtrak's website. Unfortunately, again I slept through everything I wanted to see on the trip including Cleveland (BEREA, QUAKER, Collingwood Yard, DRAWDRIBGE) and CP-DRAW in Buffalo. I had both dinner and breakfast in the dining car and both were wonderful despite being "nationalized". The old Budd Diner had been totally remodeled inside.
While eating breakfast I heard someone accross from me introduce himself as I rail buff so, whine leaving I simply flashed him my NRSH card. Well the guy turned out to be Geno Dailey who runs an Amtrak Photo Archive at http://www.trainweb.org/amtrakpix/ So this was really turning out to be an Allstar trip. Geno was also riding via a Rail Sale on a 12$ round trip b/t Buffalo and Utica.
Again the blowing snow turned the vestabules into winder wonderlands and the trip accross NYS was largely w/o incident. I took pictures of the split at Albany as well as some F40's and turboliners stored there. I also caught the W/B LSL pulling in. Our train had been making up time accross Indiana and Ohio, but we slipped another half hour in NYS and simply couldn't make it back and we pulled into Penn Station Two hours late. However, I had foreseen this delay and made a handy connecting with the 5:42 NJT Super Express into Hamelton NJ. Unfortunately, when I had called my dad telling him to tell my mom to pick me up at 6:30 instead of 6:00, he told her 7:00 and the arrived at 7:30 so I had to wait an hour in the bitter vold at Hamelton.
All in all I had a great trip and I hope to take another pointless Amtrak trip in March. If anyone is interested please reply. The planned route will be the Pennsylvanian to Cleveland/Toledo and then the LSL west to NYC.
Images will be posted later as well as a STATE tower and general switch and signaling report.
Great report.
PLEASE, when you post your Tower photos, make the Tower Operator anonymous. He may have posed for you, but that doesn't mean he was supposed to. You almost posted his full nam a few days ago if you only remebered his last name. Don't risk getting that nice man in trouble by one of his bosses if they happen to lurk here.
I told him that I was going to take the pics and make an article for www.signalbox.org and he didn't seem to mind.
Most of the Tower Ops are Union. Union means you can't get fired. Still it's better to be careful, but I don't think we need to be too concerned about the towerman. If he was concerned, he would have said so.
I know someone (ex-Conrail) who has been "fired" by NS twice, and is still working.
AEM7
Great report, Mike!
I noticed the active LAKE ST. tower"
...walked to the Randolph St. station. It took me about 25 minutes of circling to actually find the station. I was looking for something like Suburban with a nice office building entrance, but all it was was a hole in the ground at a St. corner.
Randolph St. station and the entrance to Randolph St. station a year-and-a-half ago.
inside Randolph St. station
Actually, there are two LAKE ST. towers. The CMSP&P Tower that you saw:
And the CNW tower at the throat of the CNW station:
Surprised you didn't pay a visit to the CNW station. Those dwarf semaphores are a hoot.
Wow, thanks for the photo of Lake Tower! Brings back memories!
Anyway, can anyone find the train in the lower photo? It's not very hard if you know how the tracks work there, in fact it's pretty easy.
The CNW Lake St. tower is visable from the station platforms.
She eventually showed up and escorted me to the CNW station. However when I got to the CNW station I found that he CNW station had been demolished and replaced with something called the Ogilive Transportation Center. Anyone care to explain this one?
It's some redevelopment thing. Paying for transit thru real estate rights. If you have ever explored the entrance to LaSalle St Sta., you'd know what I mean. The OTC isn't that bad, really, it's got a nice concourse and everything.
A friendly driver of a UP boom truck stoped and gave me his e-mail address to send copies of my Photos to.
Strange, this trip people seem to have been very friendly with you. I hope you are accumulating your professional contacts carefully. They are useful people to know, especially when they'll give you info that you won't get elsewhere. I, for one, would like to know the HARRIS towerman.
We caught the 12:25 train to Kenosha and I was very impressed with the Metra Bi-Level cars. The only suggestions I can make is get rid of the green window tint and add 3-2 seating on the lower level and 2-1 seating on the upper level. The space as it is is greatly under-utilized.
The older version have a yellow window tint. That tint makes picture taking even on a clear day near-impossible. Did you realize Amfleet windows are also tinted? The Amfleet tint is a lot less obstrusive, however.
The bi-levels have ingress/egress problems. They really need more doors. Also they need to rid of the gallery design, since it's not efficient use of space. If they must use lo-level platforms, a Superliner design with two stairways and two doors might be better than what they have at present.
Question, can anyone tell me why the CNW runs backwards?
It always has. Rumours has it that the chief of signalling at CNW in the early days was a Brit.
The one thing that I could not understand was the METRA faregate system. The C/R's still collect tickets on the train so the faregates were totally redundant. Because i didn't leave fare control at University park I got to keep one of my tickets.
The faregate system is being phased in. Exiting downtown you need to feed the ticket thru the machine. Exiting at unrefurbed suburban stations you don't. 55-56-57th St is just finished refurbing, I think there are still a few unrefurbed ones left where you don't need to surrender the tickets. The turnstiles at 59th is ALWAYS OPEN (until they get the fare collection systems to work). The faregate system also counts the monthly passes usages, you are limited to 60 downtown disembarkations per month on the monthly passes.
I got off at 59th St / UoC in order to walk to the 55th St Green Line station. I also wanted to find some place to eat. While I did make it to the Green Line station w/o freezing my ass off,
There is a plaza near 58th in the UChicago district that had various Ramen and Greek places. I'll take you the next time I am there.
I was a but put off that the CTA did not run the Purple Line express trains all day. They could learn something from NYC.
CTA doesn't have the level of transit-use and transit-support they have in NYC. CTA has recently had to cut back frequencies on many services because of non-ridership. For instance, the CTA Blue Line used to have a headway of something like every 4 mins out to O'Hare. Now it is every 6 mins.
She didn't complain much when I when proceeded to walk her all the way back to Union Station with two stops over both the PRR and NYC station approaches in order to take pictures.
That isn't a long walk, only about 1.5 miles. Where is the PRR and NYC station approaches? I never saw those when I did that walk.
I had both dinner and breakfast in the dining car and both were wonderful despite being "nationalized". The old Budd Diner had been totally remodeled inside.
Yes, the old Budd diners are very nice. On one trip, we had a burst water tank above the corridor area, so that the place was sloshing in water. It's probably due to the ice.
AEM7
>>The faregate system is being phased in. <<
Do you realize they first bought faregate/mag stripe junk from Litton in 1965. The propaganda at the time claimed LIRR was buying he same stuff. It was similar to PARCO hardware IIRC. Thirty eight years and counting!
No one told me that :-p The official line is that they are still phasing them in. I think they got new hardware. At 93rd St (South Chicago), they have the newer faregates that give a readout of how many rides left.
AEM7
They all do that.
Those faregates are holdovers from the old Illinois Central service, and their days are probably numbered. I lived in Chicago for nine years, and there was never any mention of "phasing in" the faregates. If anything, they'll eventually get rid of them all and have the former IC lines use the same ticketing system that all the other Metra lines use.
They're the same turnstiles that PATCO uses, and if I remember correctly, PATCO is in the process of planning for their replacement.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
...and there was never any mention of "phasing in" the faregates
I suppose you hadn't been keeping up to date with the IC Electric service bulletins then :)
AEM7
They aren't exactly the same, but they are very similar. At least at Randolph the faregates do aid in crowd control.
>>aid in crowd control<< which considering lower ridership than say half a century ago is IMHO a joke. Back then your tickets were punched twice--once at the station train gate and once onboard. . 'Course that was in an era of full employment. Consider that the stations on the So Chicago branch each had a ticket agent and a rush hour puncher. It was only in the late 50's that the secnd trick ticket agemt was cut with 'Pay Fare on Train' signs displayed.
The PATCO style turnstiles do work very well most of the time, though PATCO is seeking to replace them.
I was on Metra this summer, and for all the bragging my Chicago area friends do about it being the best commuter rail system in the US, frankly, it's no better than LIRR diesel territory and as slow, too.
Oh yeah, and electric lines where the track's dead on straight for a few miles and the MAS is 70? Even MN isn't that bad on the New Haven line!
Frankly, Metra didn't even come close to impressing me. I found the CTA's high speeds on elevated portions to be nice, though
We should go ride some rare mileage, not boring old Conrail main. What about riding to Montreal via the Vermonter and then coming back via the Montrealer?
Also, I can think of a few good locations to railfan (in no particular order):
* Shady Grove station on WMATA, on the B&O main
* Toledo Sta., on the NS main
* Altoona Sta., on the Conrail main
In March, it would be freezing, probably better to go somewhere with indoor cover (i.e. Toledo or Altoona).
AEM7
The Montrealer went away years ago. The Vermonter dosen't go to Montreal.
Well, there is an NYP-YUV train, and there is also a YUV-St Albans bus that would connect you to the Vermonter, which takes me back to SPG for a #448 connexion.
AEM7
You'll never get me on a Throughway bus.
Too bad, I'd have to go with my friends and leave you behind.
AEM7
However when I got to the CNW station I found that he CNW station had been demolished and replaced with something called the Ogilive Transportation Center. Anyone care to explain this one?
The locals still refer to it as the Chicago & North Western Station. If you ask somebody in the Loop how to get to the Oglive Transportation Center, nine times out of ten you'll be met with a blank stare, even though it's the new "official" name. Sort of like "Avenue of the Americas" in NYC.
BTW, even after the old terminal was replaced by the glassy new building, it still carried the C&NW name for quite a few years. It wasn't until Chicago & North Western Railroad was merged into Union Pacific that the name was changed, and that was only about seven years ago or so.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
There may be a "P" train in our future. I took this photo at Pitkin Yard this afternoon. It is of a rollsign for either the R-32 or R-38. The "P" letter is available, should it ever be needed. Sorry, but the best I can do is refer you to:
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/metro_ny
then look in the folder labelled "P train possible."
If all else fails, e-mail me and I'll send a copy.
The end sign dial on the R32/38 have all letters from A to Z and all numerals from 1 to 0.
Numbers 0-9 are on the flipdot sign. Once saw a R32 at CIY with a "3" on its flipdot.
Once saw a R32 at CIY with a "3" on its flipdot
Had West End Jeff been tampering with it?
Yes, all rollsigns on the R32 & R38 have P rollsigns. The digital flip dot signs on the R32 & R38 and the Luminators on the R44 and R46 have all letters and 0-9.
Where is it? I only see 1 folder, 'Pitkin Yard.'
Not as seamless as I thought, that Yahoo stuff. I can see a "P Train Possible" folder. Sorry about that. Email me and I'll send you the photo.
I already sent the mail. I'm waiting :)
It's on its way. Feel free to repost since I obviously can't.
Ok, here we go:
http://photos.yahoo.com/city7811
I've got it. Just click on 'My Photos' and it's there. I'm sorry I can't post it here directly: I dunno how.
It's where? Your album seems to be blank also.
Please e-mail it to me, I can post it on regular webspace. None of this Yahoo silliness.
Saw a couple trainsets of Concourse R62 (Kawasaki) on the #6 to-day,
one was #1531-2-3-4-5/1365-4-3-2-1; couldn't get the other numbers, but did see the train.
I thought all the R29 has gone to Davy Jones' locker, but there was #8678-79 sitting there in Unionport Yard. Saw other R26 and R28 cars,. and also saw Flushing R36 #9400-01.
Redbirds still alive & kicking, thanks to CI Peter's crew.
All these are #5
9039-38, 8812-13, 8834-35, 9066-67, 9070-71
9123-22, 8966-67, 9108-09, 8964-65, 8924-25.
None of these will win beauty contests, and are all cosmetically ratty, but they ran beautifully, smooth riding, all doors OK, heat OK too.
Somebody questioned the configuration of the Pelham Parkway #5 station, found the following:
Exit is 12 paces closer to the north end of the station.
The platform is tapered at south end of the station, more so on the northbound side. They could use some wall tile there! (Grecian key pattern in dark green...)
Thank heavens we didn't run into any G.O's!
It was as cold as hell up in Da Bronx today.
wayne
I heard 8678/79 and 9400/01 will be preserved as museum cars representing the R29 and R36 WF fleets. Where they will be ultimately stored and how much "exercise" they get is anyones guess.
Well if they're gonna be preserved as museum cars,then it's obvious that they're gonna go to the Transit Museum in Downtown Brooklyn once that ex-subway station is finished getting rehabbed.
"Well if they're gonna be preserved as museum cars,then it's obvious that they're gonna go to the Transit Museum in Downtown Brooklyn"
Wrong again! Most of the NYCT Museum fleet is stored out in Coney Island Yard around 10 & 11 track - I believe. There are enough of the redbirds already on display in Bklyn.
An R33S has been there since it opened in the late 70's.
"Well if they're gonna be preserved as museum cars,then it's obvious that they're gonna go to the Transit Museum in Downtown Brooklyn"
Wrong again! Most of the NYCT Museum fleet is stored out in Coney Island Yard around 10 & 11 track - I believe. There are enough of the redbirds already on display in Bklyn.
They would go down to the Museum if there was some way to squeeze them in. Married pairs are a tough fit.
-Stef
Is there a way to expand the station? Please don't take this the wrong way since I've never been there before. I'll make a note to make a visit there once the rehabilitation is done.
Well, yeah, you could punch through the wall heading towards Manhattan like they originally wanted to do.
---Brian
I've posted one idea that may or may not be possible. In particular, it relies on the width of the tunnel between Court and Hoyt -- is there room for at least a narrow island platform between the tracks?
If there is, then build one and extend the museum all the way to Hoyt (with two forks, one for each local track). The main museum entrance would be at Hoyt: enter on one fork, walk to Court, see the exhibits there, and walk back to Hoyt. Museum cars would line the two tracks between Court and Hoyt.
... it relies on the width of the tunnel between Court and Hoyt -- is there room for at least a narrow island platform between the tracks?
Unfortunately, no.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What we need to do (provided we can find somebody with deep enough pockets to do it), is to do what London has done, that is to keep a central museum with some rolling stock and exhibits (their Covent Garden, our Court Street), and to set up an auxiliary site for the rest of the historical rolling stock (their Depot at Acton).
wayne
As far as I know, the entire 10 Car Train will be preserved.
-Stef
"Saw a couple trainsets of Concourse R62 (Kawasaki) on the #6 to-day,
one was #1531-2-3-4-5/1365-4-3-2-1; couldn't get the other numbers, but did see the train."
One correction - R-62s are jerome cars - not Concourse cars.
I stand corrected. But what were they doing out of Pelham? Problems with the R142A's?
wayne
Absolutely not. As Jerome yd. continues to receive their compliment of R-142s and R-142As, they will also give up the R-62s for R-62As. I suppose the ones that you saw were in 'transit' to the #3 line or part of a GO. As of Saturday, however, the car assignment matrix showed no R-62s having been re-assigned.
Where there any sort of logic as to why the names and numbers of the subway lines (1,2,3,A,C,E,etc), especially the extinct double lettered lines (NX, JJ, QT, etc.), exist as they do or did? They seem quite random to me.
Single lettered lines, (A,B,C,etc.,) were expresses. Double lettered lines were locals, including lines like the GG which are locals end-to-end. This was the original IND system for train identification from 1932. When the Board of Transportation took over, unifying the system in 1940, things gradually began to change. The IRT got their routes numbered, and BMT routes (which had numbers to begin with) eventually got letters, hence QJ, QT, and so on. The NX was the Super Sea Beach Express, so far as I am aware, the only express to be double-lettered. Hope this helps. :-)
If your look at it geographically, it seems to make some sense (to me anyway).
IND/BMT:
Start looking at the terminal stations of the lines starting in the the Northwest of the city (Bronx and Washington Hts) and head east then south and west again, there is a pattern of progression, albeit not exact:
A/B-Washington Hts
C/D-central Bronx
E/F/G Eastern queens
J-Jamaica
L-Canarsie
M/N/Q-Coney Island
R-Fort Hamilton
IRT:
1/2/3 Westside
4/5/6 Eastside
7 Queens
Yes, before 1985-1986 the single letters meant a train was express while the double letters meant trainwere local. Now there were variances to this b/c for example the QB line [the present day ] ran local in Brooklyn but express in Manhattan so exceptions like this threw the whole letter system off and it was scrapped. Now should a major expansion of the current system ever occur on the IND/BMT, double letters may have to make a comeback.
Some double letter lines like EE, QT and KK were random while others were not. Examples:
QJ->Queens Jamaica
NX->Express version of the N train
Then you have lines that were once double letters and are still around but have single letters nowadays.
CC->Present day C train
GG->Present day G train
LL->Present day L train
RR->Present day R train
SS->Present day designation for shuttles
As for the IRT, they were numbered consecutively I guess to reduce confusion.
1,2,3--> 7 Av line
4,5,6--> Lex Av line
7------> Flushing line
NOTE: The 9 has been running on the 7 Av line since 1988 to provide skip stop service on the 1 and 'threw off' the number order for the IRT lines.
The IRT 8 Train was the E.149 St/3 Ave.-Gun Hill Rd. Shuttle.
Oh I must of left it out. I wonder what the 8 train would be used for should it be needed now [it was said it would be used for a Jerome express should it ever come to use]. I never was able to ride the 3 Av line b/c I wasn't born but I wish it could make a comeback and give a alternate to the Bx55.
A Jerome express would be cool to ride again! It used to be the 4 Diamond at rush hour. How about eliminating the skip-stop 9 and making the 8 an express north of 96th street to 145, then again from 207 Street to 238th in the peak direction at rush?
That would be a nice recipe for underserving some very busy stations and overserving some not-so-busy stations.
It was a thought.
Can't really do it since the Jerome line's majority of riders use the local stations [the best you could do is run the express to Brunside Av then switch to local] & as for the 1/9 it's difficult to implement a peak express due to the lack of island platforms north of 96 St.
#8 would replace Diamond 6
#10 would replace Diamond 5
#11 would replace Diamond 7
#12 might be the #4 express should it ever come to be.
wayne
12 and 13 are red.
Better use for the (8) a subway(elevated after 116th street on) from 3 Av Brooklyn to 3(Third) Av Bronx, running the entire distance of all 3 av in all 3 boroughs(except Edgewater Park of course), connecting to a (10) train which would be a Bronx/Westchester line on Webster Avenue/Bronx River Road.
3 track line, rush hours the <8> will run express in Manhattan(peak direction) to 200th Street(or 233rd Street) Bronx(Webster Avenue), the (8) will always run to Fordham Road(3-Third Avenue) local.
Greatone2k2, the problem is that people don't want an el these days, its the far cheaper alternative but the 3 Av line would most likely have to be subway most of the way. A rebirth of the (8) via 3 Av would make sense along with the 10 but they are already reserved for the mainline IRT to replace the diamond peak expresses should the need come. I'd run the line to 233 St but consider a cross Bronx subway too.
it woudl be a subway until 116th Street then an el from 125 Street to Fordham Road this is mostly the BRONX home of the els, it woudl be a subway most of the way, in Brookyln and Manhattan until 116th St
If people want the el, more power BUT I seriously doubt that I think they would prefer a subway. The Bx55 is unreliabale and at times slow; but they could of replaced it with NO bus and you'd be stuck with the even slower Bx15. It would be VERY beneficial, el or subway to bring 3 Av subway service back but with the financial strain of the MTA, don't count on it but we could dream :-).
then there is the Bx41 as well
I know. While both streets could use a new subway/el, I say 3 Av should have the 'preference' over a full Webster Av service. The bottom line is the Bronx needs more train lines. Queens got it FAR worse, no subway east of 179 St(F), NOTHING south of Archer Av[E,J,Z], NOTHING north of Roosevelt Av(7) and absolutely NO north/south lines from the Astoria el! What gets the Bronx is that the 6 is the ONLY cross Bronx subway & NO north/south lines east of White Plains Rd besides the Dyre Av branch on the 5.
I was thinking that both streets get a subway/el the (8) would end at Fordham Road(rush hours <8> to Gun Hill Road-210th Street or 233rd St) and the (10) would serve all of Webster Avenue
Oh, you're running the original route of the 3 Av el. Yeah, that would be a sensible pattern for the trains but flip the services. If you're choosing the 8 to be the peak express, you may as well make the 8 instead of the 10 serve all of Webster Av all times while the 10, which is running local, to begin/terminate at Fordham Rd weekdays then both trains run local in the Bronx to Gun Hill Rd [possibly 233 St] weekends.
no, there will be two branches(not sure if they would connect at Fordham) one will split up after 3 Av-149 St
The 6 really isn't a cross-Bronx subway. It only serves the East and South Bronx and doesn't connect with any other subway line while in the Bronx. It's not like you can go from Pelham Bay to Kingsbridge on the 6. Ideas about a cross-Bronx subway or light rail have come up from time to time on this board. But the cost, the benefits and the priority (compared to other projects) would have to be carefully considered.
(6) also serves North East Bronx, Pelham Bay area
why replace the diamonds? leave them, they seem to work fine most of the time
the (8) should be more than just another lexington avenue line it would be disrespectful to make the (8) a supplement when it was once a unique line before.
People in Yonkers would have a one fare ride to Manhattan (transfer from the (10) to the <8>)
No, that's what the those rollsigns are for but I feel it should be reserved for a IRT expansion [if that happens anytime soon]. I prefer the diamonds too, if people don't know their shapes they shouldn't ride the subway or take a Subway 101! I agree that it would be 'disrespectful' to run the 8 via Lexington and it can't handle any extra trains.
Ok, now you know, I know and all people here at Subtalk know the subway will never go to Yonkers or outside NYC for that matter, it would have to be some blockbuster plan.
What? Nothing for Queens? We need new lines more than the other three boroughs combined! Make it 3rd Ave Queens (Whitestone) via LGA and Ditmars to 3rd Ave Manhattan and Bronx and we have a deal!
:-) Andrew
Besides, 3 Ave Brooklyn does NOT need a subway line! What's that over there ONE block away?
:-) Andrew
When the Board of Transportation did the numbering the #8 was originally assigned to the IRT Astoria line (Queensboro Plaza to Ditmars Blvd). Later on the #9 was assigned to the Dyre Avenue line but that designation only existed on the record of the BoT. It was never publically used even though it was on the front roll signs of the R12 - R15 cars:
8
Astoria
9
Dyre Avenue
The 3rd Ave line was not the original IRT #8 train. That distinction goes to the IRT Astoria line, which ran from Times Square to Astoria until the 1949 consolidation at Queensboro Plaza.
Through a strange coincidence, both the IRT and BMT Astoria lines were numbered 8. The IRT, as mentioned above, went from Times Sq. to Ditmars, while the BMT #8 was a shuttle from QP to Ditmars only (the Q cars). It took a long time (I guess to avoid confusion) before they reassigned #8 to the Bronx 3rd Ave line.
It seems silly to use #9 for the West Side line and leave #8 vacant.
IND Letters started clockwise from the west.
(A) 207th St
(B) 168th St
(C) Bedford Park
(D) 209th
(E) (F) 179th Street
(G) Continentental
(H) Court Street
AA, BB CC etc were the locals of these routes.
BMT started with numbers, but I never knew them. When I started riding they were already converting to letters in a sequence that followed after the IND:
(J) Jamaica
(K)
(L) Canarsie
(M) Metropolitan
(N) Sea Beach
(Please Dont (P) in the Po(O)L)
(Q) Brighton
(R) 4th Avenue
(S) Reserved for Various Shuttles and (S)tuff
(T) West End
So the (Q) was the Brighton Express
the (QB) was the Brighton Local via Bridge
the (QT) was the Brighton Local via Tunnel
Back in those days the (T) was the Nassau Street Loop
And then some @$$ #)l3 went and bulit a connection at Christie Streed and %X@C#D every thing all up, and the poor BMT hasn't been the same since.
The 1962 map did not *show* any numbers or letters on it, but only named the lions, which is good because lions *should* have names. Bue even so, as explained the IND had these letters from its opening even if they never were printed on a map.
Numbers did not appear on the IRT until the advent of the R-12 cars in 1948.
BMT originally *did* have numbers after (when?), but few cars were capable of displyaing them.
Elias
Back in those days the (T) was the Nassau Street Loop
T was the Broadway - West End Express... I remember it well ;-)
West end Express? I think you mean.. 4th Avenue Express.
N Bwy
Yes, it ran express on 4th Ave., but it was called, on roll signs and maps, the West End Express.
T was the West End Express; TT was the West End Local (on 4th Av) that went into the Nassau Loop, or served as the late night shuttle between CI and 36 St.
Now most of the "T" is being operated as the "W" for those who are unaware. Old timers will remember the "T" as the No. 3.
#3 West End Jeff
Looks like we lost a lot of service..
N BWY
QJ->Queens Jamaica
Wrong. The letter "Q" did not mean Queens. In many cases "Q" trains didn't even go to Queens. "Q" meant the Brighton line, with three variants:
QB-Brighton via (Manhattan) Bridge)
QT-Brighton via (Montague) Tunnel
QJ-Brighton via tunnel to Jamaica.
:-) Andrew
Thanks for the correction. Why would they create 3 different Q services, it made NO sense whatsoever couldn't they just come up with another double letter :-\.
Because they were all Brighton trains.
There was also a single letter Q.
To clarify, not all of the 3 double-letter "Q" services existed at the same time. Pre-Chrystie street there was the Q, QT and QB. After Chrystie Street, the Q went away (replaced by the D in Brooklyn and by the QB in Manhattan, which switched from Broadway Local to Broadway Express but now only ran during rush hours. The QT went away without direct replacement, but the QJ was started, going from Coney Island via Brighton Local, Montague St tunnel, Nassau St, Willy B , Broadway (Brooklyn) to Jamaica. In 1973, the QJ became the J which only went from Jamaica to Broad St, it was replaced in Brooklyn by the M which ran via Nassau St and Montague St tunnel to Coney Island weekdays only.
The QJ ran with the three Qs before 1967, but it only went as far as Broad Street, just as the J would after 1972.
Don't you mean the No.15-Jamaica line?8^)
The 15 became the QJ.
QB was the Broadway Express which operates between 57 and CI during rush hour band then became diamond Q in 1985.
Not originally. See the other threads. QB was originally a Brighton and Broadway local that went over the Bridge. The Q and QT ran M - F 6 am - 7 pm; the QB ran other times.
I know that. I'm saying that some double letter lines didn't run local the entire route [like the QB], which caused the duble letter system to be dropped
The former IND lines have the most logical arrangement. The Sixth and Eighth Ave lines alternated letters, and the northern terminals used consecutive letters:
BY TRUNK LINES:
8th Ave: A,C,E
6th Ave: B,D,F
Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown-G
Fulton (Shuttle)-H
BY NORTH TERMINALS:
Washington Heights: A,B
Concourse: C,D (Nowadays the B serves the Concourse while the C serves Wash Hgts, but that's another story)
Queens Blvd: E,F,G
Court St: H
Before 1985, locals were double letters, so the "C" and "G" we know today were actually CC and GG, and there was also an AA and HH. The E and F were single letters because while they were local in Manhattan they were (and still are) express in Queens.
Until the early 1960's, the BMT theoretically used numbers, aranged more or less randomly, for its lines. I say "thoretically" because for the most part only railfans and rapid transit staff knew them; they were only signed in a limited fashion. I have relatives (such as my father) who grew up in BMT territory and they had no idea the numbers even existed. The routes were mainly known by names and their destination signs. Anyway, circa 1960 the TA extended the IND lettering system to the BMT lines which were slowly being merged with the IND lines. The BMT lines were given letters J through T. It was sooorta logical:
Nassau St or Bwy El: J,K,M
Canarsie: L
Broadway (Mnhtn): N,Q,R,T
For whatever reason, letters I, O and P were skipped. (The reasons why are a rather played out Subtalk topic.) The double letters were something bizzare. The Canarsie line, being a local, was LL. And other locals included the KK, RR, and TT. Fine. But then the Brighton line (designated "Q", for whatever reason) had three variations, "QB" (Brighton-bridge), QT (Brighton-Tunnel) and QJ (Brighton-Tunnel-Jamica). The "NX" was the Sea Beach Express (why wasn't that just the "N" while the Sea Beach Local made the "NN"?) The "MJ" was the now-defunct Myrtle-Jay route. The "RJ" was the Bay Ridge-Chambers St route (which survived the 1985 letter purge, briefly, by becoming the brown "R".)
Most of the letter combinations were gone by the mid-1970's. In 1985 the double-letters were dropped, and all IND/BMT routes were made single letters. The AA became the K (a letter vacated by the abandonment of the 6th Ave-Bwy El route), and eventually disappeared all together. The RJ became the brown R. The rest of the double letters were not duplicated, so they simply became single letters.
Originally the IRT lines were only known by destination signs and simple descriptive names ("Lexington Ave Local", etc.) In 1948 the numbers were introduced, and arranged logically enough:
Seventh Ave: 1,2,3
Lexington Ave: 4,5,6
42nd St/Queens: 7,8 (Astoria, just before it became BMT.)
8 would later refer to the Bronx remenant of the Third Ave El before it was torn down. I think 9 once belonged to the Dyre Ave branch, which is now just a variant of the 5. When the R62s and R62A's were introduced, there were (and still are) additional rollsigns. For reasons unknown to me, the colors and numbers are as such:
8. green
9. red.
10. green
11. purple
12. red
13. red
Or I might have one or two of them wrong. Anyway, when they introduced skip-stop on the 1, 9 was the next red number, so that was what they used. Threw the system off. Similarly, the presence of a brown "Z", an orange "V", and a yellow "W" on the BMT-IND rollsigns explains why those were (mis)matched with the Nassau St, Sixth Ave, and Broadway lines, respectively.
:-) Andrew
I read somewhere on this board that "P" was originally assigned to the Culver line, but was never used, because by the time it could have been, the line was only a shuttle, and thus was assigned "S".
BY TRUNK LINES:
8th Ave: A,C,E
6th Ave: B,D,F
Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown-G
Fulton (Shuttle)-H
And if I'm not mistaken, the H was originally conceived to be the Fulton Local. All the locals were supposed to run Between Court Street and whatever Eastern Terminal was supposed to be (let's not get into 76th Street). They realized very early on that having only the expresses going to Manhattan, and having the locals run back and forth and making people switch to the express was a pretty dumb idea, so it never amounted to more that the Court Street Shuttle in the IND days, endinf in the mid 40's. Of course the H designation was brought back for a while many years later as the Rockaway Park shuttle in the 80's.
The Fulton st local route was intended for Second ave trains from Pine street in lower Manhattan.It would have been built along with the Second system lines during the 1930's[around 1935]if everything went accordingto plans,with the full route finished about 1940....
The Fulton st local route was intended for Second ave trains from Pine street in lower Manhattan.It would have been built along with the Second system lines during the 1930's[around 1935]if everything went accordingto plans,with the full route finished about 1940-42.
This would have required that the tunnel cross the Joralemon tunnel underwater. Also, Schermerhorn Street ends at Court Street, the tunnel would have to make a sharp S curve or obtain easements from the building owners.
I'm not so sure about that. I have read that Court Street was always supposed to be a stub terminal for the Fulton locals (similar to the way WTC is set up, where the local terminates there, but the express continues on). Obviously it's a dumb idea for Brooklyn. In Manhattan it works.
At the time the IND was planned, Downtown Brooklyn was still a major destination. The IND expected it to stay that way, as the greater city's third CBD.
The Eastern Terminal on the Fulton St Line would have been Lefferts Blvd, 225 Street or Rockaway Park. Assuming the lines would have been built.
"Or I might have one or two of them wrong. Anyway, when they introduced skip-stop on the 1, 9 was the next red number, so that was what they used. Threw the system off. Similarly, the presence of a brown "Z", an orange "V", and a yellow "W" on the BMT-IND rollsigns explains why those were (mis)matched with the Nassau St, Sixth Ave, and Broadway lines, respectively. "
The "V" should have been the "H".. the sequence would have been B, D, F, H... 2, 4, 6, 8
while the "Z" should have been the "K" .. the sequence would have been J, K (L) and M... 1, 2, 3, 4
and lastly, the "W" should have been the "T" .. the sequence would have been N, Q, R, T... 1, 2,3,4
N BWY
Z was chosen instead of K b/c the blue K was the 8 Av local at the time and coincedentally was cancelled the same day the Z was born in December 1988. I wondered why W was chosen instead of T but it probably was since a lot of rollsigns already had it well before it first came to use in 2001.
Hey what could you do, they're working so its too late to gripe about the order now :0).
We just went through this. Search for the thread labelled "R train" and then there was another thread which had the suffix, "was: R train." Both of these occurred just at the turn of 2003 somewhere.
I think they should give the BMT/IND the Numbers.. and the IRT the LETTERS since there more lines serving these two divisions (BMT/IND).
N BWY
14 BWY
There is no danger from running out of letters. And by giving the IND/BMT the letters, you have the larger number of single character designations.
How do you figure?
You can only get 26 single letters in the English Alphabet. It is possible that you could run out.
They could make the (G) into a shuttle (S) and have that as another free letter. MTA could get rid of more lines and use diamonds.
There are 26 single letters, but only 10 single-digit numners (0-9).
:-) Andrew
If all the single letters should be used up in the future [I,O & U are deemed unusable], double letters would have to make a comeback plus you ONLY HAVE 26 single letters in the US alphabet.
I think they should give the BMT/IND the Numbers.. and the IRT the LETTERS since there more lines serving these two divisions (BMT/IND).
N BWY
14 BWY
In that case the N should be the #4 ;-)
I read once that the "1" was assigned that because it contains most of the city's original subway, in other words, the "first" line.
Seems unlikely. The IRT has a west to east pattern just like the IND. The 9 threw it all off.
I read once that the "1" was assigned that because it contains most of the city's original subway, in other words, the "first" line.
I don't think so. Remember that the 6 is also part of the first subway line, south of Grand Central, just like the West Side Line north of Times Square is. By that thinking, the 6 should really be the 1 because the first subway train left from City Hall, and went north along the current Lexington Line, before it ran over to the West Side.
Here's the original IND logical routing system. Single letters meant expresses, doubles meant locals:
A Washington Heights/8th Ave
B Washington Heights/6th Ave
C Concourse/8th Ave
D Concourse/6th Ave
E Queens Blvd/8th Ave
F Queens Blvd/6th Ave
G Brooklyn Queens Crosstown
(notice how the IND favors it's northern terminals. This routinmg system meant nothing to Brooklyn riders).
In 1960, this system was expanded for the former BMT routes:
J Jamaica
K Broadway Brooklyn
L 14th St/Canarsie
M Nassau St
N Sea Beach
Q Brighton
R 4th Ave
T West End
S Shuttle
This is where the system lost all meaning. The Brighton local was given 2 different letters (QT/QB) to indicate which route it took into Manhattan. One was an express in Manhattan, despite the double letters. After 1960, double letter routes were used more frequently to show what combined route they'd run on (QJ, RJ, NX, MJ, etc). The NX and QJ were expresses with double letters. By 1985, the system lost all meaning and was finally eliminated.
Actually when the QB and QT existed together (pre-Chrystie St) they were both Broadway Locals with the Q being the express. Only after Chrystie St did the QB become express on Broadway (although still running local in Brooklyn).
IIRC, the QB, at least during the evening, ran express in Manhattan and local in Brooklyn before 1967.
On Jan 17,2003 a homeless person fell into the pit at Haymarket Sat on the Orange Line approx 4:11pm. The unidentified gentelman slipped on the raised handicapped yellow line, for the blind, which was wet at the time. As the train approached he attepted to get under the platform away from the ocomming train. He was taken to Mass General Hosp and suffered head trauma and a cut hand. Service was bussed around the area and normal service was resumed @ approx 5:15pm. Stevie™
Um, I take it the "pit" is the trackway where the train comes and goes?
Take Pride,
Brian
OUCH!!
There was a "Battle of the Buffets" on the Travel Channel tonight, was filmed,of course, in Las Vegas.
One of the contestants was supposedly a NYCTA subway train conductor named Eric Booker. 6'6" tall and 450 pounds!!
Supposedly he is also the hot dog eating champion of the world, burrito eating champion of the world, and a few others. It's obvious this guy likes to eat. Seeing his size, I wonder how he fits into the cabs on stuff like the R32/38's!!!
Well, if Mark W. can fit in those cabs, anything is possible! :)
That's why I liked B division. Them "double-wide cabs" were a Godsend. And I was svelt at the time. There's an advantage to size. Nobody messes with ya. If they know what's good for them. And motivated large people take no qwap. :)
To quote Jimmy Cliff: "the Bigger they are the Harder thay Fall".
To quote the new Godzilla ads: "Size Matters"
Heh. Well, I ain't quite so fearsome but I still prefer B division cars for a little "elbow room" ... besides, the cab heaters were in a happy place where you could keep your Veal Parm hero nice and warm. :)
Speaking of cab heaters, those on the R40/42 are useless. They are vertical just above the floor and underneath the old radio braket. That un-needed radio bracket gets nice and warm underneath taking it away from the rest of the cab. The floor gets warm too! Big deal! God forbid NYCT will take out those radio brackets, it'll cost money!
Heh. Yeah, wasn't too thrilled with the ones in the 32's or 38's either. The Arnines though would throw BEAUCOUP heat if you turned on the floor heater, and it was strategically placed right under your butt. Open up the cab door and you could heat the whole car with what was under there. Ah, if only there was just a LITTLE more room, I coulda opened up a pizza parlor. The side-mounted heaters didn't do as well. But I could grab a Veal Parm at Stillwell, and it'd still be nice and hot for the CPW dash northbound. :)
And yeah, those big brick Motorolas were about as useful as the heaters. Maybe the cab holsters can be recycled as a magazine rack.
I don't know if JC himself said that, but I know that it's the title of his movie. Love it. The only English language movie I know that requires subtitles.
I don't know if JC himself said that, but I know that it's the title of his movie. Love it. The only English language movie I know that requires subtitles.
Trainspotting also was subtitled, thanks to the lower-class Scottish accents.
Despite its title, the movie had very little rail content.
Yah, Mon...Iree!
Listen you asshole... I'll remember that. Last time I checked you were a fat fuck yourself.
Easy does it partner. I think BMTman's only kidding around.
-Stef
Dude, you get angry so easily. Take a chill pill.
DUDE, I ain't angry. DUDE, I am chill. If I was pissed you would REALLY know.
Whoa, calm down, Mark,. I'm sure he was just joking. I'm sure you're still a great worker. :)
Calm down Mark, I understand you took offense to it but I think he was joking around.
LOL. Anyhow, I pulled into Nevins Friday afternoon. Of course, I get holding lights. Then I hear the Dedicated Anouncer. Was that you, Mark??
Mike, if it sounded like the Announcer was eating a ham & cheese sandwich while speaking....yeah that was Mark. LOL
Yup...That was me. What are your times there? I'm there from now on.
Mark W. that's some pretty ruff dialogue for a public forum...chill...was just busting on ya :)
But at least I'm proud of MY girth...
Here's something to remember:
(B) Big
(M) Manly
(T) Trains
(I) Incredibly small
(R) Rail
(T) Transportation
Now, don't you see why I'm the BMTman? :)
Doug,
Anything for:
(I)
(N)
(D)
Also, if you take the word dirt and remove the "d", you have IRT !
Bill "Newkirk"
IND....give me a couple of beers, and I'm SURE I could come up with something, Bill! LOL!
I ncredibly
N ice
D omes
(B) Big
(M) Manly
(T) Trains
The perfect description of the BMT Standards.
Bill "Newkirk"
:)
(I) Interborough
(R) Rules
(T) Transit
So there!!!
Hey Doug,
It's Trevor, e-mail me when you get a opportunity....
metrod3700@cs.com
Regards,
Trevor
www.transitalk.org
Cool, a NYCT employee repping NYC in the "Battle of the Buffet". Remember, since Mr Booker is 6'6", his belly probably won't be as big as if he were shorter but it would still probably be a challenge for him to fit in a one sided cab. If he's the burrito eating champ, then he should go for the REAL challenge by participating in the Nathan's hot dog eating contest.
If he doesn't tell fellow constantants only the W goes there, he might win by mass default.
He DID participate int he latest Nathan's hot dog contest onTravel Channel.....he WON!!!
And the W has full-width cabs too.
My god!, he must have quite a time squeezing into those small conductor's cabs that probably have about as much room inside as a telephone booth
#3 West End Jeff
I recall there was a train operator candidate who fought the medical due to extreme weight and won. Whatever happened to this person? Did they make it on the road or are they elsewhere now? No personal interest -just wondering.
He is on the road and very happy
His name is Dwight fishbone, and he did become a Motorman last i checked.
He will be dead soon, as his heart will soon go on strike from overwork - carrying too much excess baggage. No joke, folks.
She was paying attention to a problem with the train:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-conduct0119,0,6217983.story?coll=ny%2Dnynews%2Dheadlines
The story says the space between the car and the platform bar is only a little over six-inches (instead of 13 as was posted earlier). That means she really didn't have to be that far outside the car to put herself in harm's way, as the photo of the accident recreation that goes with the article shows.
Other than tearing up the extended length of the North Conduit platform to avoid the problem of kids getting in there, I'm not sure what kind of solution the MTA can come up with to get rid of the bar and still have any barricade on the platform work the way it's supposed to.
Cut the fence down to below the height of the cab window (I'm guessing about 4-5 feet). It won't keep dedicated troublemakers out, but it will let the average joe know that they shouldn't be there.
A fence that low really wouldn't be good for much of anything, since it would be just too inviting for too many kids.
What they could do, I suppose, is "notch" the fence at the conductor's window level, the same way the storm door frames on the R-40s are notched to allow room for the door handle. That would still keep the fence from platform to near roof level and the post close to the platform, but would move the section four to five feet up away from the platform to prevent another tragedy like Saturday's event.
A fence that low really wouldn't be good for much of anything, since it would be just too inviting for too many kids.
I think that the MTA's concearn about kids is overblown. I mean the occasional wandering aside, why would kids have the hots for going down to the end of an extended platform? I mean railfans probably, kids probably not. Besides, the full height fence can't stop anything either. All you have to do is swing around the open space trackside. It takes 2 seconds. Much easier than going over. All the barrier should be is something to keep people honest.
exactly. A fence, full height, or not, isn't going to stop someone who really wants to get across. Swinging around over the side of the platform, or jumping down and then climbing back up, or cutting the fence, or climbing the fence...all of these are possible, whether the fence is 2 feet tall or 20 feet tall. The only purpose of the fence is to let people know that they're not supposed to go there, so that someone doesn't walk down there and then complain when the train doesn't stop down there.
Why's it overblown? Kids these days,especially the school kids are a bunch of knuckleheads,and rowdy to boot.They don't listen to thier parent's like thier supposed to anymore.They just see what goes about in the neighborhood they live in or what they see on TV and think that that's the way they're supposed to be too.That's how they casually pretend to listen to thier parent's then go off and do the wrong thing's like being so goddamn annoying in the station and have these stupid tough guy attitude's.The TA knows that so having that fence there was a good idea but instead of building that fence,they should've taken the whole extra platform out.It's never gonna be used so what's the damn point anyway.
Given the arrangement, they SHOULD consider losing it. But I suspect the solution will be a gallon of yellow paint.
Sorry but it *was* almost 13 inches as I posted earlier. I witnessed the measurement; the press, kept at a distance, did not. As I also posted earlier, the fence (more than about 20 years standing in that location)should have be cut down to a safer height before now (1:41 AM, 1-19-03).
The newspaper said 6.5 inches. Who do we believe? I believe everything I read...in the newspapers :)
I posted the Newsday photo of the fence and the reenaction on another message. The shadow on the edge of the fence makes it hard to see what's metal and what's just darkness in the image. To me, judging from where the C/R's head is in relation to the fence, it looks like more than 6 1/3 inches but less than 13, but if you witnessed the measurement, I'll go with that (though I would assume someone at Newsday, the Times, Post, News or one of the TV stations would get an MTA official on record about the clearance).
Sadly, you have WAY too much faith in the media. I was once a member of it myself and yes, they ARE that lazy. Story's over, they're off looking for the next celebrity shoplifting charge or baby in a well. Bonus points if they can snatch it off the wire and put their own byline on the story. But the PRESS, whose freedoms are granted as a check/balance against the government couldn't be bothered if any work is required. :(
Here's the story from the Sunday Times. No mention of the clearance between the fence and the cab window in the story -- odds are the story was deemed to have happened too far out in Queens for the Times to spend any major time on it, since the story iteself in buried inside the "All Headlines" link in the paper's metro section (Maybe if she had hit that homeball at 34th and 6th instead of a fence at Howard Beach the paper would have invested more effort into the story. But that's just me being cynical about the Times' priorites...)
New York City isn't known for journalism, hasn't been since Bill Paley died. That's one of the reasons why I highly respect our little doomtown HEARST paper, the Albany Times Union. At least THEY ask questions when something doesn't add up, get all the facts they can and don't pretend to be the "ultimate nose stuck up in the air arbiter of truth" ... But yeah, ALL of New York City's "newspapers" suck ...
And to think - the lazy media is ALL we have to protect us from our government. That was the entire PURPOSE of "Freedom of the press" ... wasn't granted to provide fashion tips, or dating do's and don'ts. A morally bankrupt press ain't gonna protect us from morally bankrupt politicos. In fact, control of the media is everything nowadays. Today's editors wouldn't spot a scam if they were IN on it. :(
Just to complete the four-paper parlay on the story, here's the reports from the Daily News and from the Post.
The news also has this straight-on shot of the gate in question -- it looks close to the edge of the platform, but the bottom of the photo's cropped so you really can't tell for sure where the post and the platform meet:
Of the two the News has the better story, while the Post (of course) has the goriest detail.
Man, the Post REALLY is a piece of crap. I was particularly moved by "CLEARLY MARKED" regarding the sign on the fence. If she'd only stopped and read it, yada yada. I sure hope transit workers don't bother reading abandoned copies of that fishwrap, much less PAY for it. :(
As I said in an earlier post, we refered the reporters at Aqueduct/North Conduit Station to the proper people. The information developed by the TA investigators will be available to the press through the appropriate channels. They can also contact the police. We (TA underlings) are not at liberty to give thia infomation to the press at the site.
I'm not sure what kind of solution the MTA can come up with to get rid of the bar and still have any barricade on the platform work the way it's supposed to.
There is no way that any sort of a fence that ends at the platform edge can stop kids from swinging around the fence to the other side, and infact putting it that close to the platform edge is all the more of a temptation to do so. All that is needed is a low railing with a sign saying "No Exit" (in 26 1/2 languages) to alert people that there is no need to go that way. Nothing will keep kids out, so let them go down there if they want. As soon as they see that the ta doesn't mind if they go there, it will loose all interest to them.
Elias
Yoy ... 6-1/3 inches?
Only 6 1/3 inches, unbelievable. Here's what we got, she's not a regular on the A, the R38 had door trouble which one TA source DID SAY that it did, the gap is only just over 6" between the C/R & the platform, 200 feet of platform that SHOULD of been removed or the gate should of had a different paint color. It's such a shame this dedicated worker died on the job. They should modify the gate by making it slanted or the better solution is just getting rid of the extra space all together.
the R38 had door trouble which one TA source DID SAY that it did
Her head still should not have been out there as you can't see many doors from the C/R position. If there's a door problem, watching the indictaion after properly observing the platform is the way to do it. That's what its there for.
What kind of door problem could she have had to do something like stick the head out?? The only thing I could even come close to thinking was loss of indication, and she might have possibly looked out to see if it was being caused by something, or God forbid someone, on the outside of the train. Makes no sense!! Maybe she had dropped something of hers while she was observing, and looked out to see where it might have landed. I don't know......makes no sense what could have prompted her to keep her head out that long till the very end of the platform, or even put it back outside the cab window if she had already placed her head in!!
Quite true. You have to wonder if the doors were having trouble, why was the train in revenue service in the first place? Couldn't the C/R just get out and checked for herself and notify people as necessary?
You have to wonder if the doors were having trouble, why was the train in revenue service in the first place?
Its done all the time. As long as its not seen as a risk to the riding public, the train stays in service.
I see, thanks.
Makes no sense!!
Movement, especially monotionous movement is mesmerizing to the human brain. This alone can cause accidents. Many sailors have fallen overboard because they were watching the water passing by the ship. I find I must exercise very extreme caution when aproaching a grade crossing out here: The trains are a mile long, they have these red and white reflective decals right at eye level, and if you are watching them, then you loose depth perspective and might drive right into the side of the moving train. As soon as I see those suckers, I stop the car, put it in park and set the parking brake. Then I can watch those decals to my heart's content.
Even if she were looking right at the fence, it would be easy to loose depth perspective, and run right into it. This is what happens when catchers see an "exploding fastball."
There is no excuse for any obstruction to be that close to a train, particularly on an outside platform. In tunnels, possibly, but even there such obstructions ought not to be near the end of the platforms.
Elias
I'm still almost POSITIVE after these new developments that a medical problem caused this accident. Nothing else seems to add up. I just can't see someone failing to see this obstacle coming after looking rear-front-rear. I feel this poor woman had to have been ill or injured BEFORE she struck the fence. (Whether, if this is true, another wayside object would have killed her had the fence not been there is another story.)
Look - you can speculate about medical conditions, mechanical failure, cold stress or even a crime. The fact is that this was a tragic happening and an official investigation is being conducted. It serves no one to believe idle speculation, media mis-information or union hype.
That's true. However EVERYBODY is gonna have their opinion, and even official inquiries are sometimes not as objective as they should be. My point is, sometimes there are factors which contribute to accidents which are beyond the control of their victims. It is to be hoped that this accident, while horrible, reminds everybody that their precious lives are fragile, and we exist in a world of imperfections which sometimes, sadly, kill us.
The way the article described "extra list" or whatever it was, it seems like she worked a double shift and fell ill but we can't speculate until ALL the facts are in and a thorough investigation is done. A obstruction shouldn't be less than 2 feet from the C/R to a platform obstruction in the first place and they should just get rid of the unused space.
At first I thought this was just a fence to keep riders from wandering down an un-used protion of platform, In which case it need not have been so big or so close to the tracks. But from other photos it seems that is separates an abandoned - unmaintained (perhaps dangerous) platform from the rest of the system. More to the point, it looks more like it is part of the fare control than anything else: to prevent people from gettin in at this point rather than to keep them from getting out. This will require more work than just moving or lowering the fence, but it is clear now that this needs to be done the soonest.
Elias
That part of the platform does not appear to be very safe, I think safety is the foremost concern and why the fence is there. I don't think the issue is so much keeping people in the area where the train will stop.
That section is in bad shape and probably is unsafe, but only if you do something stupid like jump up and down real hard or shake the structure. I think that normal walking on that part of the platform will not do anything. In any case, the MTA has decided that C/R safety is more important than blocking off that part of the platform by removing part of the fence. You can see the photo here:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=436884
Take Pride,
Brian
I know, youe right her head was out there for too long. But then again, what if she though someone was getting dragged and what if the sensor wasn't working? There are a LOT of possibilities but the sure thing is that this tragedy took the C/R's life and a investigation will hopefully figure out what happened.
If you suspect, you pull the cord. When the train stops, you go find out, reset and go again.
the photo:
Transit officials said they could not recall any similar circumstances causing a worker's death.
I recall that a few years ago, a conductor who stuck his head out of the cab window as his train was crossing the Manhattan bridge was seriously injured. (The article mentioned that the T/O knew something was wrong when the doors didn't open at Grand Street.) What ever happened to him?
He died. Thats how they found him. Supposedly, there was a movie shooting on the Manhattan Bridge. The C/R had his/her head out and got hit. He was not discovered until Grand Street. It is kinda similar to yesterdays incident.
I'm not about to participate in an 'investigation via media', especially while an official investigation is underway. I will say, and I'm sure that most RTO people here will agree, that in general, one does not troubleshoot an alleged door problem by sticking their head out of an open window of a moving train. I'd be cautious about taking news reports and union 'facts' too much to heart.
This reminds me of a story/lesson the conductor taught inquiring minds in his car on the Redbird trip of 5/26/02. He let some people stick their heads out as we were passing by stations (I had my turn at 191st on the A). He told us that you have to be VERY careful with objects on the platform. Later on in the trip, the train went to VCP and then relayed/layed up on the middle track south of the station. Those who wanted to stay on could, and I chose to. The conductor told me to stick my head out the window (we were still). Once my head was out, he told me to look to both directions, which I did. I saw the home signal, which looked to be about 3 inches from the subway car. A conductor takes many risks, and when one overlooks something, the outcome can be deadly. My condolences to the family.
I was on the 8:54 yesterday morning when the TO announced that there would be a delay because a conductor was *SHOT* at the Rockaway Blvd. station. She then went on to explain that; "NO trains were to be sent beyond Broad Channel until further notice". By order of the NYPD, of course. I stayed put on the A train until it left and ended it's shortened run at BC after a fifteen minute delay at Far Rockaway. I was instructed by the police that if I wanted to get to the city I would have to go outside, in 8ş weather, walk down to Cross Bay Blvd. and 9th Street, and wait for a Q21 bus to Euclid Avenue, where the other end of the no train zone began. (in a part of Queens known for a dearth of buses during the weekend). For nearly two hours I waited, and not being able to board the two that did arrive due to the desperate scrambling of the crowd, I went back to BC got on a shuttle that did a triangle to Rockaway Park - Far Rockaway - Broad Channel. I got off at Far Rock, had some lunch and by 1:00pm went back to the Far Rock station to find out that everything was back to "normal" (I guess "normal" for this branch of the subway). Total loss of time: four hours, for what I found out later was a horrible accident that happened to a green conductor when she stuck her head out the cab window too far, too long, and was struck by a partition, at the North Conduit station, and killed. When I finally got home I confirmed on the news what I heard on the street. My heart goes out to the survivors. What a pity.
This is this past Thursday, when I actually had the entire day to myself and I felt the need to get away for a day and go somewhere far, but not too far.
I left Newark on the 10:20 Trenton local, which has a mix of rehabbed Comet II's and a couple IV's hauled by an ALP-44. It was my first ride on a refurbished II and it was essentially a IV without a center door. But I still love what they did with it - bringing back the flip-seats and giving it that retro look (there I go again with that word! But it's true - NJT is going retro with the appearance of their rail cars!)
Anyway, the auto announcements were okay for the most part but still glitched a few times. Like once we left Newark, it announced Hamilton as the next station, and as we approached Trenton, the next stop was apparently Harmon Cove.
But we got to Trenton okay and I boarded the Septa connection - a Silverliner train -- the ones that look nearly identical to the Arrows (sorry, I'm not that fresh on SEPTA terms).
These cars must've given a rehab in recent times as well because the inside is not the way I remember them when I last rode one - back in 1995 or so. I remember them with mustard-and-ketchup seats and this one had all gray seats. The window panels used to be brown and are now light tan.
I also noticed that one set of seats on both sides were removed from the center section.
Previously, the seatbacks here were perfectly straight; quite uncomfortable. They are now like regular seats so I guess there's not enough room for opposing seats.
So upon arriving at 30th St station, I didn't have an exact plan in mind, so I just walked east along Market Street. All the way to Penn's Landing (whew!). Long walk, but I got a good taste of center city. I returned to 15th St on the Market-Frankford El and discovered the "railfan seat" that has been mentioned here.
Boy you guys weren't kidding!!! I always expected it to be like the front seat on a PATH train, but this thing was facing FRONT!
Anyway, I got off at 15th and did the Rocky pilgrimmage -- walked up Benjamin Franklin Parkway through Logan Square all the way to the Art Museum and climbed the hallowed steps... there atop those stairs were the footprints of the man himself. But alas, the statue was gone!!! I also realized something pretty interesting -- virtually none of the current Philadelphia skyline existed in 1976 when Rocky was made! I immediately recognized two buildings -- identical apartment-looking complexes off to the right.
Then I walked back down the Parkway, back onto Market Street and wound up at the Reading Terminal Market, where I breaked for lunch and decided to have an authentic cheesesteak at Rick's Steaks, apparantly owned by the same Olivieri family as Pat's Steaks in South Philly. Now I'm no expert on Philly cheesesteaks so I can't give an honest rating, but I don't know, it tasted pretty damn good!
I also learned the Philadelphian word for sub: Hoagie.
Afterward, I got back on the El and rode out to 69th St. I planned on doing a round trip on the Route 100, but the train (car) I got on only went as far as Bryn Mawr, so I turned back there. Got back to 30th St station and left on a packed rush hour train back to Trenton (another Arrow-type Silverliner). In Trenton, I noticed some Comet-type Septa cars on another track. Now I know SEPTA has had some for a while, but since it was dark out and the interior lights were on, I got a clear look at the interior -- it looked exactly like the interior of an NJ Transit Comet I - the seats were exactly the same way. I also read on the R7 timetable that Septa recently acquired some "new" cars -- did NJT fork over a few extra Comets???
Anyway, the connecting NEC local was another mix of Comets - some rehabbed II's, some IV's, and even one or two III's.
And it was all routine from there...
You rode SEPTA Silverliner IV's. I believe that SEPTA recenty bought some extra Shoreliner III or IV equivalents.
Do the signs on R142, 143 have all available letters or numbers ? (Yes, I know 143 can not use the numbered lines)
Do the R142 signs have 8 and 10 and above or zero if tranait decides to use them?
Could the 143 signs dispaly double letters if it is desired such as LL or letters not used such as Y.
Yes- I know the signs would need programming to display a "new route".
Are you asking if they are programmed or if they are capable?
They are obviously capable of displaying almost anything, resolution permitting, since they are LED arrays.
Most programmed output or display devices have a native character set (i.e., characters that can be displayed with a single- or double-byte command, instead of being specified pixel by pixel). Maybe that's the question--which characters are in the native set.
The LED on the R142's & R143's can display all singal letters of numbers, just like the signs on the R32's & R38's. The only differets is that the R142's & R143's have only the programing for witch routes that most on since they would also have to have the programed anncemts to go along with the signs.
Robert
I clicked on a few lines at the MTA's subway service advisory webpage and didn't see any new or interesting G.O.'s for today. Does anyone know of any that are going on? Thanks.
---Brian
Uh, we have the 7's not going to TS today and tomorrow, I believe. It's for that interlocking project. You don't want to miss the 3rd rail construction as well. Very exciting!
All SOuthbound BMT Tunnel(R,W ) trains are running over the bridge. Also the W to Manhattan is runniogn from Stillwell via the N Express track to 59th Street.
An interesting GO that will start tomorrow through 3/14 will see a suspension of #5 Express Service in the Bronx. Trains to make all stops during the rush hours. I believe this is for signal work.
-Stef
Actually, it is for switch replacement around Jackson Avenue.
!
I knew it.
Is that the one north of Jackson?
-Stef
Mike,
The work train is out right now....
The barricades between M and the southbound track are in the process of being removed north of the platform at Jackson Av. Something is brewing here. If I didn't know better, I'd say that the switch is being moved closer to Jackson.
The hint would be the installtion of a light, where a switch would be positioned. A switch heater, perhaps? I see these electric lights near the switches at Parkchester.....
-Stef
Well today the Manhattan bound W was running express via Sea Beach, the Manhattan bound 6 was running express from 3 Av to Hunts Point Av. The GO's in the next couple of weeks is going to be very intersting; like the 5 having NO BRONX THRU EXPRESS SERVICE until March 14.
I was just looking through the reorganized station photos on this site and came across this photo of Fulton/Nassau.
No it's not necessarily the R-32 on the Eastern Division or the old IND tiles I remember there that caught my attention.
The train says "Kings Highway". I assume that's Kings Highway on Brighton. Did the QJ's occasionally terminate at Kings Highway? Why would they do that instead of Brighton Beach? Can Kings Highway terminate trains if all four tracks are in use?
Brighton Line trains cannot terminate at Kings Highway unless the rest of the line (that is, from Kings Highway to Coney Island) was cut off for some reason. However, Culver Line trains can (and have and still are) terminate at Kings Highway.
R-32s, in the past, have been assigned to runs on the F line in Brooklyn. In addition, the TA (from reading subway histories) used to shift equipment around a lot. Thus, what may have happened here is that this R-32 was either signed incorrectly, just rerouted, or maybe something did happen on the Brighton Line that is forcing trains to terminate at Kings Highway.
Wrong.QJ trains use to run from 6am to about 745 pm to CONEY ISLAND.Trains that ran to the Brighton line after this[to about 8pm] continued to either Brighton Beach or Kings Hwy,went OOS, light to the yard,and layed up for the next day.
If all 4 tracks are being used, then no it cannot. HOWEVER, if something happened south of Kings Hwy then yes it could. Chances are it was a wrong sign.
Why it can't if all track are in operation?
After discharging passengers at Kings Highway, the train can just run light to either the layup tracks west of Brighton Beach or to the Coney Island yard. This surely wouldn't hold up any traffic.
Sure, but I wouldn't know why they would want to do that. They might as well just let it run with passengers all the way to Brighton Beach. I can't understand why they would want to terminate trains at Kings Highway - especially if they would have to run them light to Brighton Beach afterwards.
The only response I can give for that is this:
Think about it. Why does the TA do all of the stupid things they have done in the past, present and future? I have a feeling that even they don't have an answer to that question. What you have stated is perfectly logical, but we all know that the TA does not always operate logically.
And b/c the TA is illogical at times, that's the main reason why this board exists :-D!
Now you're talking. LOL
QJ and M trains did this everyday. The M ran latter in the evening than the QJ[around 830-9pm,discharge at BB or KHY].... I used to take some of these trains goingto Coney Island in the summer...hated transfering to the D,which ran local after Kings hwy because trains began laying up on the express track there at night....
I am glad you answered. Sounds like a sensible plan.
The other possibility is that that train is going on the Sea Beach line to 86th St and then into CI yard. As I don't think the R-32s had 86th St signs in those days, they'd've signed it up for Kings Highway.
It's probably just an incorrect sign. Before GOH cars, incorrect signage was common everywhere.
Nice picture. I didn't know that the BMT Fulton St station had IND-style tile at one time.
Broad Street and 8th Ave on the L also had standard IND tiles up until a few years ago.
The ones at Broad were yellow with orange:
And the ones at 8th Ave were blue:
The only other place that had the standard IND tiles (That I know of) is a small extension on the Times Square platform on the 7 train. I don't have a photo of that, or a link to one on this site though.
Also:
and:
Yup, that's the TS I meant.
Columbus Circle. Yup that's typical IND.
As for Lorimer, I used to ride through there every day for years, and didn't think of that "To Crosstown Line". That is also typical IND. I guess when the G line was built they gouged out some white tiles, and added that to the BMT tiles. Thankfully, when they redid Lorimer (which in my opinion was a fantastice job), they kept it.
I am disappointed with some recent IND station renovations that have made the little IND letters disappear. The least they could do is replicate them in some of the IND renovations.
I am disappointed with some recent IND station renovations that have made the little IND letters disappear. The least they could do is replicate them in some of the IND renovations.
Of course I don't mean that for Fulton, Broad, or 8th Ave which actually look better now than when they were new, and now match the rest of the stations on the lines they are on. They did a fantastic job on those.
I'm talking about renovations at IND stations, that replace the original IND tiles, such as 14th/8th. That is a great renovation, but I miss the little 14's. The new ones are fine, but I always liked the continuous 14's (or whatever) as they run down the wall in the unrenovated stations.
Many times they don't replace the small IND letter tiles when they cover over the old tiles in IND stations renovations. The new color bands look great, but many stations did loose the little letter tiles.
IIRC the station at 14/8 never had any colored tiles on their wall. It was like that since the station first opened.
No, I seem to remember the yellow scheme in the band at 14/8th before the renovation also.
I take it back. There were yellow tiles up. But they did not have a border around them.
I take it back. There were yellow tiles up. But they did not have a border around them.
That is probably true. However, I was talking more about the little IND numbers that have disappeared:
14 14 14 14 14 14 14 14 14 14........
Now there are just a few over the knockouts.
It's just a nitpick I have of some of the IND renovations recently. I like the IND numbers. All in all though 14th/8th is a great renovation just the same.
Speaking of station rehabs, the 8th St BMT station is looking great, maybe even better than the spectacular job done at 81st St./CPW.
In the Broad St picture, notice the T/O smoking! Must have been a long time ago.....
Where is the T/O? He's not in the cab.
He's walking into the cab. Remember that Broad Street is a terminal, so he isn't in the cab, because the train may not be ready to leave yet.
It's pretty funny though. Even though you were able to smoke a lot more places years ago than now, I don't think you were ever able to smoke in underground stations. There are still old vintage signs around the subway that say not to smoke, etc.
Amoking was ALWAYS prohibited for the public. And yes, doing it IN the car was a violation of the LAW ... good thing he's probably long since retired by now, or a TSS would be waving a G2 in his face. :)
Maybe he was just sucking on it, like a cigar. Yuck.
Years ago I was at the railfan window of a BMT Standard on the Astoria line - I could smell the cigar smoke coming from the cab - and sure enough when he opened his door I saw the lit cigar...
Over the summer, I was riding on the R142 from the 5 on the 6 (naturally, the Redbird wasn't running the day I went to ride it) and the T/O was smoking when I got off at 86th Street and at 77th Street heading northbound...
Actually, in the days of the Arnines, that WOULD have gotten you written up. You were supposed to "hit the street" or "go to the lounge [heh]" or do it DISCRETELY ... I *swear* that picture was of one of my coworkers at the time, and he knew damned well NOT to do it IN THE CAR. But back in the 70's, they were REALLY HAPPY if you were only smoking tobacco. Really! :)
I agree with you. But where in the picture is he? I see no one in the cab. He's not in the doorway.
I *know* the "official garb" of the time - that's the motorman, NO DOUBT. AND I recognize da face. :)
Rule at the time was you WORE your steenking badge on your belt. That was about it. At the time, we tended to wear "plain clothes" so as to not be hassled. Jeans, blue shirt, hat optional. NOBODY put on the stupid hat. Conductors had to wear their monkey suit, we didn't. As long as we had our badge somewhere "visible" ... but yeah, that's a face I knew.
But where is he? I don't see anyone in the cab. No one is standing at a car door. No one is standing on the platform.
Heh. OK, I get it. But yeah, that was da man. Cleland if I remember right, NICE GUY too. GOOD "rank and file brother" ... when I was a conductor on the D, he was my "front man" ... but yeah, nobody in the cab, yeah, I get it. Now PUT DOWN the damned bat, eh? :)
Now I see it. I was looking at the picture at Fulton St when I should have been looking at the pic at Broad St.
OK ... now we're getting it real. Put DOWN da quack pipe. :)
Ain't using no quack. Just need to get the sleep out of my eyes.
Feeble excuse, bro. Heh.
Actually, that picture reminds me so MUCH of the happier times at the TA. When they were just glad that you actually SHOWED UP! Things were like that then. When I worked there, they were *SO* short of crew, they'd actually pucker up when you clocked in. :)
"they'd actually pucker up when you clocked in"
Sounds like a reason to bang out sick again. >g<
Hahahahahaha ... they got TSS' now. I'd mind my P's and Q's (both of which are next in, against the wall) ... but yeah, that face is *SO* familiar to me ... ah, for the days before more wiglets and junior deputy wiglets than TRAIN CREWS. GLAD I got outta there when I did! :)
Unca Selkirk grants you leave. Of course, it ain't worth (as "Mr. Natural says") SHEET.
Look closely, the cab door is open and he is ready to step into it. You can see the cab door lock through the window.
Like I had said elsewhere, I was looking at the original photo at Fulton St when someone else slipped in a pic taken at Broad St.
Quack, quack ... can't resist busting chops. :)
Hopefully, you and I can do da face thing one day to realize I mean no harm. 2 line, I ain't impressed. Moo! Heh.
MOST of us smoked back in the days when the Arnines rolled, and I *swear* that's a shot of my old buddy Cleland from Stillwell ... face looks *OH* so familiar ... secret be told, for anyone who HAS an Arnine brake handle handy, there was a hole drilled from the end, and another hole that MET it on the underside. PERFECT HASH PIPE ... and yes, many people ON the job were known to hold their handle to their lips at the time. I was too young and naive to "get it" at the time, but yeah, they be smokin' ...
Anyhoo, "Cleland" was NOT one of them. The dispatchers were just as happy to find out that motormen were smoking "regulation terbacky" instead of "whackey terbacky" at the time. And yes, I smoked a pipe (containing P.O.T. [Plain Old Tobacco]) when I plied the rails. That's why you kept your window down so it'd blow out the window rather than honking off the geese ...
I'd hold out as long as I could between "butt breaks" on the rails, but by 72nd northbound, or 135th southbound, the nico-fits kicked in. Would you rather I pulled the handle and went up to the street to get some, or would you have rather gotten where you were going? Wasn't much in an Arnine cab that'd ignite. :)
That re-alignment of the tracks in the Canal Street Station - when did that idea come up? It gets rid of that mean curve on the northbound tracks, but what will be done about those tracks when the work is completed - which will be when? Anybody out there care to let me know?
My guess is that they will lay fallow (abandoned) at Canal Street and at Bowery, or at least the outer track (the one with the mean curve) might stay for non-revenue moves.
wayne
Once the realignment process is done, the CURRENT northbound tracks will become disued and will be used for storage and other purposes. Bowery is also in the realignment process with Canal & Essex Sts & the southbound "express" track will become the northbound track. I think this project is stupid but due to the not so high volume of the Nassau line, that's why it was done. Its supposed to be done this year, what month exactly I don't know at this point.
Why is the project stupid? Having one platform open instead of two makes the station safer because only one platform needs police protection and makes the station easier to keep maintained. Especially if the volume is low.
Stupid being a poor choice of words, but the project does have some merit. There is no express service there (unless you call the "J" and "Z" battery-running through Bowery express service), and the two outer tracks fall under the category of "excess capacity". Maybe they will use them someday for 2nd Avenue service, as outlined in the SAS plans.
wayne
The J and Z no longer skip Bowery at any time.
OK, thanks - I remember that they did at one time.
wayne
Ok, stupid was a bad choice but since it is pretty low volume, it made sense. AND I DID SAY THAT the realignment was sensible b/c of low volume and the J/Z no longer skips Bowery during the rush hour.
I don't think it's stupid. The Nassau St. line is doesn't need all that trackage anymore and the elimination of that curve south of Canal will speed up Queens bound service.
Does it also mean that the radius of the curve between Canal St and the Bowery will be increased by the fact of 2 tracks running on a 4 track trackbed?
"Does it also mean that the radius of the curve between Canal St and the Bowery will be increased by the fact of 2 tracks running on a 4 track trackbed?"
Sounds unlikely. That would be a lot of work and would cause major disruption. Also, since the curve was built at the same time as the building above it, it's not a particularly sharp curve and doesn't slow the trains down much.
I've never seen trains slow down around this curve. It's not like Crescent St. or anything.
No, if anything it would be mitigated somewhat, since the new northbound track is closer to the outside of the curve; the inside (sharpest) is the northbound "local" (current running, to be abandoned) track, and thus has the sharpest turning radius.
I should think some sort of speed limit or timer there would be prudent; it's still almost a 90-degree curve.
wayne
"I should think some sort of speed limit or timer there would be prudent; it's still almost a 90-degree curve."
It's not the degrees that matter for the speed. It's the turning radius, which is quite high compared to many other curves that go from one street to a completely perpendicular street. That's because the subway and the building over it were built at the same time, so they could construct a gentle curve.
That re-alignment of the tracks in the Canal Street Station - when did that idea come up? It gets rid of that mean curve on the northbound tracks, but what will be done about those tracks when the work is completed - which will be when? Anybody out there cares to let me know?
I don't know what the point is. Trains out of Chambers still have to swich over West twice. If they don't, they end up on the former loop tracks to the Manhattan Bridge.
It was probably mentioned already but I'll start a new thread on this. For those who don't know already, there will be NO BRONX THRU EXPRESS on 5 trains everyday starting tomorrow until March 14, ALL local stops all times except nights in the Bronx. Wow, I wonder how this is going to look. Could there be a few surprises though? We'll just have to wait & see.......
I already know, Bronx riders get screwed again, first the off peak <5> gets eliminated(according to David) then the <5> gets screwed with during the rush hour, now it may be eliminated, or severely limited.
It's not gonna be eliminated or severely limited.There will be NO,I repeat,NO! express service in the Bronx on the 5 because they are gonna take that time to replace all the old signal's that are along the middle track with new one's.Once 3/14 comes around,express service will return so don't worry about it.
Once 3/14 comes around,express service will return...
Q:
How reliable is the TA for finishing projects on-time?
Depends. They have the whole workarea fenced off so they can get right to it whenever they get the green light. I wonder if they're going to put wheel detectors up in certain spots (n. of Simpson, approaching and leaving East Tremont/W Farms Sq).
wayne
Pretty good, actually.
There was one time when the TA was talking about making the Dyre Ave. "5" train the Bronx local all times and letting the "2" and E. 238th St. "5" run express thru the Bronx.
After all this GO is finished, do you think that the TA will THEN try to implement this new plan?
Opinions please.
NO
Doubt it, it will get shot down again just like it did 2 years ago and 5 riders will complain to death over the switch so NO. Plus that's too many trains running express while giving local riders less service.
Didn't they say they were going to reevaluate the service plan and try to implement something else that was more agreeable at a later date?
I hope not. The MTA should leave things as is. From what I've seen and please correct me if I'm wrong, more people ride the 5 north of 180 St than the 2. Also the Dyre Av. 5 is basically a limited-stop train north of 180 Street, making only a few stops between 180 and Dyre. In comparison, the 2 makes about 10 stops north of 180. Turning the 5 into a local in the Bronx would drastically slow one of the Bronx's quickest routes.
Total annual ridership, White Plains Road Line north of E. 180th Street, 2001:
Bronx Park East: 548,956
Pelham Parkway: 1,984,764
Allerton Avenue: 1,427,038
Burke Avenue: 901,035
Gun Hill Road: 1,407,781
219th Street: 725,271
225th Street: 901,909
233rd Street: 1,283,596
Nereid Avenue (238th Street): 798,970
241st Street-Wakefield: 1,045,011
TOTAL: 11,024,331
Total annual ridership, Dyre Avenue Line, 2001:
Morris Park: 445,159
Pelham Parkway: 665,085
Gun Hill Road: 1,532,449
Baychester Avenue: 956,529
Dyre Avenue-Eastchester: 990,129
TOTAL: 4,589,351
If more people are riding 5 trains than 2 trains north of E. 180th Street, those 5 trains are White Plains Road trains PLUS Dyre Avenue trains.
David
Yep, I'm definitely wrong on this one.
David, do you have the 2001 ridership statistics for the (4) line north of 125 St?
Yes, I do. Thanks for asking :-)
But seriously, folks:
138th Street: 695,696
149th Street: (complex)
161st Street: (complex)
167th Street: 2,375,002
170th Street: 2,166,104
Mt. Eden Avenue: 1,428,197
176th Street: 1,366,489
Burnside Avenue: 2,764,792
183rd Street: 1,624,672
Fordham Road: 2,943,268
Kingsbridge Road: 2,429,177
Bedford Park Boulevard: 1,282,122
Mosholu Parkway: 2,211,341
Woodlawn: 1,421,650
David
I would have thought that E. 238th Street would have more ridership than that, hopefully the 2002 ridership figures will bring it closer or past the other #5 terminal station
>>> Turning the 5 into a local in the Bronx would drastically slow one of the Bronx's quickest routes.<<<
Well whoopdee-do! You know what else, turning the 2 into an express would dramatically speed up one of the Bronx's slowest routes.
Since the 2 makes a whopping 10 stops north of East 180th, don't you think that it would make perfect sense to speed it up? The 2 also doesn't go express in Manhattan until 96th Street, while the 5 begins its express run at 125th Street. The TA's plan was set up to fail because of how they set it up. If they made ALL 5's local instead of the just the Dyre Avenue 5's, the service plan might have worked. And we wouldn't have to deal with 5's and 2's being held to cross in front of each other at East 180th during PM rush hours.
I think the TA's current operation is the right way to go. Both branches are painfully long rides. At least with the current situation, riders on BOTH branches have access to thru Bronx express service.
True, but during PM rush hours 2's and Dyre Avenue 5's have to cross in front of each other, delaying each other.
Is that really a problem? According to the public (read in the newspapper) that it isn't. If it is, then the TA should rectifiy this by building a flyover, something similar to the southbound Dyre Ave track just north of E. 180 St. Come to think of it, the TA should have done this when they reconfigured the tracks north of E. 180th St and built the Unionport Yard.
Yes, it is a problem. I think that the 2 should be the express in the Bronx and the 5 local.
Hmm, that one is rather interesting. The 2 has LONG local stretches in Brooklyn and the Bronx while the 5 in the peak direction is local north of East 180 St. It's been here many years and if people wanted the 2 to be express, I'm sure the public would of spoke out but the 5 is the busier line in Manhattan and is express in Brooklyn weekdays; which you must look at too. Its fine just the way it is right now.
My sentiments exactly. Thank you.
Maybe it needs to be redesigned heading northbound since it is a pain riding the <5> only to have to wait for the 2 THEN it leaves East 180 St first, basiclayy making the express ride useless. Its not as bad as the Rogers Junction though; this NEEDS major modifications.
although Dyre does have longer express service(over 3 hours in PM) though, while White Plains Road has less than 2 hours
Like I said before, I was wrong on this one.
The main reason the middle track is out of service is not for signal work. It is for switch replacement at Jackson Avenue. However, signal work can be done on the rest of M track.
I wasn't talking about express service, I was talking about <5> service being eliminated or reduced
That's what it is. the <5> is an express.Hello! If it skips stops for a certain period of time and on a different track that means it's an express no matter it's called.It can be called the 10 train for all I care,it's still an express.And again it wont be eliminated nor reduced.Trust me,I know what I'm saying. I'm right 85% of the time.
<5> is the White Plains Road train, (5) is the Dyre train, DO YOU GET IT NOW?
I know that jellyfish brains.
jellyfish brains... reminds me of a strappies post
http://www.straphangers.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=23&t=000889
watch it Ms. thinks-she-knows-it-all-but-doesn't
you didn't seem to know that in your posts
Think again.At the time I wasn't in a right state of mind.
isn't that the way you usually are?
That's what it is. the <5> is an express.Hello! If it skips stops for a certain period of time and on a different track that means it's an express no matter it's called.It can be called the 10 train for all I care,it's still an express.And again it wont be eliminated nor reduced.Trust me,I know what I'm saying. I'm right 85% of the time.
(5) and <5> trains run express during rush hours, outside of the times, (5) (and yes even a <5>) trains run LOCAL the circle/diamond designation means different terminals, not local/express
Really? Hmm the 6 and 7 local/diamond seem to have the same north and south terminal's.So your dead wrong!
First, since ALL 5s in a particular direction run express, they are not diamond-5s.
And the <6> and (6) have different northern terminals. The (6) ends at Parkchester.
YOU are the one who is dead wrong.
Scratch the 6 off the list then,the 7/<7> and Q/ have the same terminal's. I'm feeling so messed up tonight I put the 6 by mistake.Add the fact that I'm not in the damn f***ing mood for arguing.So get it straight,regardless of what the hell it's called,if the train skips station's on a track other than the local track,it's an express train! GOT IT!?
Like the 4 trains 138st , lol
Hey, don't LOL too quick. Around 1986-1987 or 88, operators of the nb "4" during pm rush hours actually signed up R62s with <4>, front and side. I thoroughly remember this because I used to think to myself that I couldn't believe that anyone would go through all that sign changing to indicate that a route skipped one extra stop out of the entire line for less than 2 hours out of a 24 hour period.
Also, does the "4" still skip 138th St? The last few times I have ridden it during the pm rush (nb, of course), it stopped.
It should skip it, I think they start to stop again at 6:30 because on the few occasions I have gone to Yankee Stadium, if I pass through before 6:30, we skip, after that time, we stop.
Yo Chill!!!!
-AcelaExpress2005
Really? Hmm the 6 and 7 local/diamond seem to have the same north and south terminal's.So your dead wrong!And almost forgot to mention the Q local/diamond as well.
NO, you're WRONG on the 6! On the Q and the 7 you are correct though, they both have the same north & south terminal. ALL local 6's begin/terminate at Parkchester/East 177 St when the <6> runs.
BTW, the B/D is like the Q/ & 7/<7> [same north & south terminals] too except that the B terminates at Bedford Park Blvd.
Rush hours only, the other times it is 145th St. So it is kind of different than the other routes you mentioned.
there are a FEW (6) local trains that go to Pelham Bay Park (not listed in the schedule) that I have seen at around 6-7 PM at 125 Street, but that doesn't occur often. More like the <5> going to E 238 St at 10:13/10:12 am
You mean FROM 238 St at 10:13 and 10:22am. I have seen Pelham locals run all the way to Pelahm Bay Park while the <6> is still running but its after 7:30pm I'm sure.
There are no in service trains leaving E 238 Street at 10:13 and 10:22 am, where did you get that one from?
I meant that off peak train that is listed as 10:12(last schedule it was 10:13) arriving at E 238 Street (it might be gone now, but somehow is still listed for a reason)
You put 10:12 and 10:13 and it got me confused. Anyway, its good you corrected me and made it simpler to understand.
NOT ACTUALLY V Train. The Bronx thru express starts at around 4pm[4:22pm from E 149 St/3 Av to be exact], the first train from Flatbush is around 3:30pm so the first 2-3 <5>'s DO run via local on the el then all 5's; Dyre or East 238 St; run express in the Bronx until around 7:45pm. The <5> SHOULD go back to normal service once March 14 comes.
That's what it is. the <5> is an express.Hello! If it skips stops for a certain period of time and on a different track that means it's an express no matter it's called.It can be called the 10 train for all I care,it's still an express.And again it wont be eliminated nor reduced.Trust me,I know what I'm saying. I'm right 85% of the time.
That's what it is. the <5> is an express.Hello! If it skips stops for a certain period of time and on a different track that means it's an express no matter it's called.It can be called the 10 train for all I care,it's still an express.And again it wont be eliminated nor reduced.Trust me,I know what I'm saying. I'm right 85% of the time.
Its only for signal replacement and if they do it during the weekday as well as the weekend it will be done faster. What would you rather, loss of express service or shuttle buses practically EVERY weekend and the project will take longer to complete.
shuttle buses = free rides
You're right, it is a free ride. Yeah to us railfans we like it but many people hate riding shuttle buses which DOES take up more traveling time.
Something to do with resignaling on the "el" ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, and there is more fun to come for #2,5 Line riders. A few weekends of split service should be coming up.
Dave..... Isn't this another reason to jump ship and give the B a try?
The A Div. is my home for now. I'll get to B Div one of these days.
Good!!! I always get the southern end of the split.
I don't mind running from 149 GC to Bowling Green for a few weekends.
I thought I'd never say this, but:
Bring back deferred maintenance! Even with trains falling apart, service was disrupted less than what's being done now.
This is less of a disruption than, e.g., the late summer GO that had C's running express in Manhattan -- it may take a few minutes longer but everybody can get where they're going without any additional transfers (and some even have one fewer transfer than before).
I'm taking about the incredible numbers of concurrent construction projects affecting service. Stillwell Ave, the Manhattan Bridge, this work on the 2/5, etc.
Oh, well. If anybody's been waiting for a chance to ride a Redbird on the 5 express in the Bronx, you've probably just lost your chance. I doubt any Redbirds will be left on the 5 in mid-March.
Someone else posted that there were supplements on the 5 so could they be operated by spare Redbirds? I think this might mean there will be more Redbirds on the road though.
You're right but then again, you know how the MTA can pull surprises and if there are Redbirds still on the 5 when this project is done, I'm gonna ride it while its still around before its too late.
I doubt there are any left now. Yesterday, the only ones I saw were laid up in the 180th St. yard or awaiting the scrappers in Unionport.
I saw the service notice poster, it reads "7 AM to 8 PM, as the times this G.O. is in effect.' Of all the threads I read, no one mentioned about the 5 express trains in the morning BEFORE 7 AM. That's right, express service in the Bronx starts at 6:15 AM. So what happened to all the trains from 6:15 AM to 6:47 AM?
From what I am gathering, M track will be closed at all times. Figure that all trains are local, despite what the poster says.
I went out to Aqueduct - North Conduit Av today to see what they did with the gate that killed the C/R. As you can see the photo below, they removed the portion closest to the tracks and replaced it with a wooden barricade type thing. More photos will be available shortly on my website.
Take Pride,
Brian
I went out to Aqueduct - North Conduit Av today to see what they did with the gate that killed the C/R. As you can see the photo below, they removed the portion closest to the tracks and replaced it with a wooden barricade type thing.
I keep thinking about horses and barn doors.
Well something was going on at the raceway today. There were a lot of cars in the parking lot, and the nb A trains were stopping at the Aqueduct Raceway platform.
Take Pride,
Brian
I think today there was racing at Aqueduct Race Track.
Wasn't it kinda cold for that? Either for the spectators or the horses?
---Brian
Actually its not too cold for either the spectators or the horses. The spectators usually stay inside where its warm and only go out to see the races (or stay inside and watch it on monitors) and the horses actually warm up from the running. They are usually kept in unheated stalls anyway so a trip to the track is no colder. The ones that are bothered by the cold are the jockeys. They are riding in this cold at 30-35 MPH. There is no real difference in riding in these temperatures between riding a horse or riding a motorcycle at these speeds and as Phil Nasadowski mentioned in another post when he had to bring his bike to the shop for service, riding in these temperatures is no picnic. The reason the jockeys do it is that the winter meeting at Aqueduct is a good time for an unknown to break into the sport and make a name for himself as all the good riders usually have gone to racetracks in warmer climates to ride.
Not to nitpick but as a big racing fan I hate it when thoroughbred tracks are called "raceways". Raceways imply either harness racing (a completely different sport) or auto racing. Its Aqueduct Race Track.
"I keep thinking about horses and barn doors. "
You're absolutely right, Peter. Why don't you write a letter to the TA and ask them to put the fence back up? That way you can whine some more about it.
That couldn't be done a long time ago, geez it doesn't bring the C/R's life back. Always takes a death for change/making modifications to something :-\
Hopefully T/O's and C/R's will inform their safety committees of any other similar wayside risks like the one that was removed there - that certainly seems a good deal safer than it was. STILL ... remember the three car rule for those out on the road ... there's a reason why you do that. :(
Three car rule? Like if you are three cars beyond the end of the platform, keep your head inside the cab?
Excuse my ignorance.
AEM7
The three car rule is part of the TA rule regrading platform observation. Conductors observe the platform until 3 car lengths have left the station - NO MORE. Had this C/R done so (or been able to, if the case shows she was incapacitated), there would have been 120 feet between her and the gate when she pulled her head in.
FIRST AND FOREMOST MY SINCERE CONDOLENCES TO THE
FAMILY AND COLLEAGUES OF THE FALLEN C/R.
After viewing BMDoobieW's newest image of the yellow board
now in place, I come to make this observation:
Being that this beloved gal WAS NOT A REGULAR on the
A line, could it be that from her position she saw
RIGHT THROUGH the gate bars (which look slim from a distance
and may have seen additional platform PAST THE GATE) which
made her think she still had x amount of space to watch
the platform before turning head inwards?
She WAS NOT a Regular on the line, and seeing additional
platform space past the bars, it is comprehensible one can
easily think the (abandoned portion) is part of the station
platform as well (and hence, gets unfortunately monitored).
My condolences once more.
That could be a possibility.
---Brian
Being that this beloved gal WAS NOT A REGULAR on the
A line, could it be that from her position she saw
RIGHT THROUGH the gate bars (which look slim from a distance
and may have seen additional platform PAST THE GATE) which
made her think she still had x amount of space to watch
the platform before turning head inwards?
That's an interesting theory. Probably unproveable, but interesting nonetheless.
That's a good theory but we just have to wait for all the facts to come in to hopefully determine the exact/most likely cause of this tragic accident. Once again my condolences again to the C/R's family.
You observe rear, front, rear again for "draggers" as the first three cars leave the platform, pull your head in, slam your window shut. When that third car leaves the platform, you'd better be inside.
Did the arrival of 75' cars (3 car lengths = 225 feet) vs. 60' cars (3 car lengths = 180 feet) necessitate any kind of rulemaking change, or is the rule the same for cars of any length?
Good question. I recall the rule being "3 cars" and the 75 footers were on the property at the time. Remember also that an 8 car train of 75 footers and a 10 car train of 60 footers still puts you in the middle of the platform. The rule was (can't quote exactly) "you'd better have your face inside the window by the time 3 cars leave the station" ... and they'd write you up if you weren't.
I'd have to leave the answer to that one to current employees, but I'd EXPECT that the rule remains the rule, 60 or 75 feet per car.
The rule applies to all car classes. As far as writing up C/R's, I don't know if they still do that. Never witnessed it anyway.
Back in my day, they'd just yell at you. But I'd heard from some friends on the railroad recently that some would be happy to write a G2. With this incident, I can see "supervision" for a while ...
Happens every time. When those two workers well killed at the end of last year they were drilling everyone on proper flagging, walking along tracks, etc.
Haven't heard anything about that lately.
Same here, they'll be drilling C/R's for about a month.
You know the drill ... keep your head down and tighten your athletic cup. Still a damned shame. :(
Safety cannot be over-emphasized. And you have to practice it constantly.
Still 3car without saying anything about the length of the car.
I think it is worded "continue to observe the platform until the train is clear of the platform or three car legnths, whatever is SHORTER" something like that.
Yeah, sounds like the rule hasn't changed in 30 years. It doesn't take all that long to look both ways and make sure that only the train is moving. Gotta admit, I always thought it was a whole lot easier though from the roofline than out a window. The old cars gave you more of a chance to win since you could lean back without hitting your head on a window sash. :(
Kevin, a little off topic from this thread but with all the talk about 3 car rules and watching after the train starts moving I was wondering how the conductor checked on the Standards. Instead of being in a cab like present day cars or in between cars like the R1-R12's and the Low/High V's the conductor worked from the center doors in the center car. I assume the door would be closed when the train started moving (although maybe I'm wrong) so how did the conductor check after the doors were closed?
I don't think it's off topic, but then again, I'm not equipped with a proper "OT" detector anyway. (grin) The standards were gone by my time but what I *think* I heard was that they could close up all doors except the one they were at near their button board. So I would GUESS that they'd check back and forward, then close the door at their position and whatever happened, happened. Folks were a LOT more careful and attentive back in those days, so I'd guess there weren't as many draggings years ago or baby carriages wedged in doors as appears to be the case today.
Hopefully there's still some folks around here who actually RAN them, they were not something we were shown in school car in 1970.
Hopefully there's still some folks around here who actually RAN them, they were not something we were shown in school car in 1970.
I rode on them in the '60s.... yes he did close his leaf last, but I do not think the train was moving when he closed it. Maybe *that* is our problem: When they stopped dragging the Lawyers under the wheel sets the stayed alive and startted suing everybody.
Elias
I actually expected that the final door closing would be before the train could roll ... indication and all that. I guess folks just paid more attention years ago. Though I do like the lawyer theory. :)
A lawyer is standing in a long line at the box office. Suddenly, he feels a pair of hands kneading his shoulders, back, and neck. The lawyer turns around.
"What the hell do you think you're doing?"
"I'm a chiropractor, and I'm just keeping in practice while I'm waiting in line."
"Well, I'm a lawyer, but you don't see me screwing the guy in front of me, do you?"
Hmmm, rather interesting but maybe a C/R who posts here at Subtalk could explain that to you. I'm guessing the 3 car rule still applies no matter what the car length whether its 60' or 75'.
So the rule I suppose, is that if you observe a dragger, then pull emergency.
On MBTA, there are two-car trains. Kind of hard to observe on this type of train, since the conductor is only two cars back, therefore must do the observations very quickly.
Question: why don't conductors ride in the rear cab? (Say on a 4-car consist -- I understand that 10-car consists are too long to see clearly).
AEM7
If the train is 4 R-44 or 46, or the 42 St. shuttle, C/R's do ride in the rear cab. On the 42 St. shuttle during the rush, the train has a T/O in each cab, to expedite movements. The T/O in the nonoperating cab operates the doors, and on the return trip he becomes the T/O.
On a four car train, if there is a conductor, they do ride in the last car on R44/46 type equipment. On 60 foot (I don't know about if A div is the same) which isn't seen here anymore, its 3 North 1 South.
Can't speak for beantown, but yes, that's the ENTIRE reason why you have your head out the window. If you can't spot a draggee within three car lengths or less, then perhaps you should be looking at another gig. Back, front, back again, pull your head in. Rules say you should be able to do that LONG before three car lengths. If you have ANY doubts, you pull the cord and when the train stops, you can look again. But that's the general idea of the ritual.
If you have door problems, your indication lights are INSIDE the cab. Trying to spot ALL of your guard lights on the outside of the car is useless, the ones on the far ends are hard to spot. Once you pass indication to the motorman, you're not allowed to take it back, so your only recourse is pull the cord.
Some stations you can't even after 3 unless they were in the front. But in those cases you would definitely hear something by 3 car lengths.
Trying to spot ALL of your guard lights on the outside of the car is useless, the ones on the far ends are hard to spot.
Especially on the R32/38. Those lights are so dim all of the guard lights can be out but one and you still won't see it.
If you can't see all of the gaurd lights on the R142/143 then you're just blind :)
But definitely the only way that you should be even concerning yourself with a guard light condition after the train moves those 3 cars is by watching your indication. If this C/R was watching for a gaurd light while this train was moving, then it had happened before and this train should have been O/O/S, no ifs ands or buts. Or school car is doing a poor job lately of training their C/R's.
You shoulda seen the lights on Arnines ... steel crust so thick you could cup your hands around them, put your eyeball right down the hole and STILL not be able to tell if they were on or not. The 143's were INDEED impressive. :)
Sure do wonder what happened down yonder though. :(
Followup - if you've ever been on a platform, conductor closes up, and the train doesn't move ... and you wonder "why doesn't he/she open up for me to get on?" ... chances are the conductor has closed up, gotten indication, turned key and PASSED indication. Once this happens, the conductor can't take it back. Even if you're cute. Just figured I'd mention that since folks are getting the drill here ...
However, if you're at the lead car and you get the eye of the motorperson, THEY can buzz the conductor to open up. Don't count on it though unless they're at a red over red.
Eh, I wouldn't count on that. I've had T/O's that buzzed me for every female with 2 legs.
Heh. But the peckering order remains the same. Once you hand the indication fairy up front, you can't take it back. :)
Yeah, I've had folks buzzed on after I've closed up too. And amusingly, a cab blessing resulted here and there. And not up front. Heh. But then again, when I moved up front, I DID find the few much better with fewer distractions. (grin)
I believe this is the rule, note it states not just to look for draggers and states how long to look WHATEVER IS SHORTER!!
Correct Door Closing Procedure Enroute (diffent then when at a terminal)
Doors must not be closed until they have been fully open at least ten (10) seconds.
Before closing the doors, announce: "STAND CLEAR OF THE CLOSING DOORS, PLEASE"
Observe that doorways are clear of customers and their possessions, ensuring that they will not be struck by the doors.
Depress the closing button for the rear section of the train first; watch the guard lights go out and observe the Master Door Control (MDC) Panel Indication Light for the rear section illuminate. If the rear section indication is illuminated, then depress the closing button for the front section; watch the guard lights go out and observe MDC Panel Indication light for the front section.
While simultaneously observing the front section of the train, turnt he key in the MDC keyswitch from "ON" to the "RUN" position and remove the key. This will return Train Operator's indication.
Ensuring that the side of the train is clear as it leaves the station, the C/R will continue to look at the FRONT section and observe that the customers are aclear of the side of the train.
The conductor will immediately turn to the rear section and observe that the customers are celar of the side of the train.
Conductor will observe both sections at least twice until the train has reached the end of teh station platform or has moved three car lenghts, whichever distance is shorter.
The C/R MUST sactivate the Emergency Brake Valve if he/she observe any of the following:
Customer and/or their possessions are caught in the doors.
Customer running alongside the train or being pulled by the trian.
Any frantic gesturing or yelling that might indicate that a customer is in danger.
Cutomer boarding or detrianing between moving cars.
ANy other situtation that can cause an injury to a customer(s).
"Conductor will observe both sections at least twice until the train has reached the end of teh station platform or has moved three car lenghts, whichever distance is shorter. "
So it is incumbent on the Conductor to quickly make note of foreign objects on the platform or at its end.
Yep, that's pretty much the way I remember it (aside from air operated doors) but that was the rule for interior-operated doors ... pretty much the same though for the older cars except no key-turning required. Indication was passed when everything was closed and locked.
Before closing the doors, announce: "STAND CLEAR OF THE CLOSING DOORS, PLEASE"
Yeah Right! on an arnine!
We were issued megaphones. :)
Do you know where I learned about the 3-car rule? A little movie called "The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3". Very informative that movie was.
Heh. But not terribly accurate. Them 72 foot cars make you lazy. :)
Hopefully T/O's and C/R's will inform their safety committees of any other similar wayside risks like the one that was removed there - that certainly seems a good deal safer than it was.
Unfortunately in many cases the 'risk' will not be removed, or even moved. I can't count how many times I almost lost my head (when I first started as C/R) observing the platform S/B at Halsey/B'way and here comes the 8 car marker flying at me a little too close - and that was within the 3 car lengths. Complained about it too, but it wasn't until that station was rehabbed that something was done about it.
Hopefully this will be an unfortunate reminder to those who stick their head out too far & keep their head out too long to pay attention to their surroundings.
and here comes the 8 car marker flying at me a little too close - and that was within the 3 car lengths. Complained about it too, but it wasn't until that station was rehabbed that something was done about it.
If it was really REALLY dangerous, I am surprised that no one took a hacksaw to it. Isn't the 8-car marker erected on a flimsy pole?
Yes, you could get fired for it, but not if you don't get caught -- how long does it take to remove a marker (and have a friend of yours report it as "missing" so that it will be replaced, and hopefully not in the same position?) Even better, have a friend who isn't associated with the TA do the hacksawing, that way the worst he could get is a slap on the wrist.
I don't mean to be flippant, but I do think sometimes people should take a little initiative for the public good.
AEM7
Isn't the 8-car marker erected on a flimsy pole?
I don't know from passing it but it looked kinda sturdy. Didn't wanna use the ol' noggin to find out though :)
Amen ... the plastic glasses are enough of an intrusion. Could you imagine a study group taken to extremes putting a hard hat on conductors next? :\
As long as folks know what's out there to look for, that's often good enough.
Just putting out the word "watch THIS station" is better than no word. If I was still working the hole in the ground, I'd be THANKING you right now for that. Putting the word out among crews costs little and could serve to prevent a repeat. Sometimes that has to do. :(
Maybe now the TA will look at other potential hazards. (Like the railing at Church Avenue that almost cost me my hand) Believe me, There are many obstructions out there. I personally almost hit the gate in question. The gate is black. The platform before and after the gate is painted in light colors. You can miss that gate easily, especially if you were not a regular on the line. To add to it, since the platform is so long it is like an optical illusion. You are so used to pulling your head in when you have app. 60 feet of platform left. It's like you don't realize how far you have gone. It's just terrible. I am sorry it took this to get things changed. I can't imagine how many other C/R's had close calls there.
Pass that along to whoever represents the safety committee down your way, it's something they should know about and at least put out a bulletin warning of its presence. I'm HOPING other road warriors will do similar on their own respective lines so that nobody else has to deal with a surprise ... thanks for putting that out here!
I am not trying to get anyone in trouble but when I told a T.S.S. (Motor Instructor) on the A line about this he said "Well you should be more careful" Not that he will look into it, not that he will tell the supt. They could give a rats ass about us. We are only a number.
Understood ... I worked there many years ago, and for the state for a number of years since. You're RIGHT. That's one of the reasons I suggest that during this momentary lapse of concern, that the UNION rep be told, perhaps they can write up a list for you guys of ALL the damger spots, a little alternative listing of "watch out here" ... doesn't need to be passed to supervision if they're not interested, but after all, the stewards should know enough about conditions so that at least you guys and gals can watch out for one ANOTHER.
And of COURSE everybody should be careful and follow the rules. But it still helps if hazards are spotted and folks know they're out there, regardless of what management feels like doing ... or not. :(
Believe me, its not easy being middle management. Its like being in the middle of a tug of war, pulled by both the employees and upper management. The reason he told you this is he probably felt it was fruitless to bring it up to his supervisors. A few times as a police sergeant I went to the captains's office when I thought the cops had a valid complaint and the captain yelled "are you a supervisor or a f'en PBA delegate?" and once actually threw me outta his office!!! Although I'm not sure if the TA works the same way but I think it would be better to have a union delegate go in with safety complaints.
IT is that kind of management that is the reasn certain businesses and government organizations are sucessful and some are not
At GE the manager would welcome the judgement of his line manager bringing up a need that needs to be fixed. Managers who find solutions to problems that will help the company get bonuses.
GM's Saturn divsions cars were a higher quility then other gm products because saturn managers and employees were encouraged to stop the assembly line if they noticed something that was not right. At other plants employees and line managers were "yelleld" at because stopung the assembly line led to lower output. What the saturn experiment illustraded was that it was cheaper to address the issue then to ignor the issue and repair the cars latter
"A few times as a police sergeant I went to the captains's office when I thought the cops had a valid complaint and the captain yelled "are you a supervisor or a f'en PBA delegate?" and once actually threw me outta his office!!! Although I'm not sure if the TA works the same way but I think it would be better to have a union delegate go in with safety complaints."
One of the jobs a supervisor has is to strick up for his/her charges, and you did that (and it's hard). One of your Captain's duties is to respect you for doing it, even if he can't fulfill your request (so his response to you was inappropriate).
Of course, in the NYPD, even a Captain is only "middle management." He has a Deputy Inspector over him, then Inspector, Chief Inspector, Deputy Chief, Chief, then Nth Deputy Commissioner, then.....
(How many ranks above Captain did I just list? I'm losing count...)
The good news is that the bloomberg administration is sending uniformed managers to business school. The fire department cheifs are currently in a crash course business school taught by columbia MBA instructors.
It is safe to say that police brass and captains are not far behind.
Good managers show respect to thier workers. He should incourage his sargents to bring to him issues that effect the average beat officer as the beat officers are the captains eyes and ears on the street. If that officer knows that his suggestios would be concidered with respect he/she would be more likely to bring up ideas that may help the precent meet its goals
Yes! Very well put.
I'm a supervisor in an EMS agency here in NYC, and I can sympathize totally with Mr. Rosen. WE have boneheaded superiors too. I can recall more than a few incidences where my crew was correct, and I stuck up for them, once even refusing to write 'em up, so obviously correct were they. But MY boss said "write 'em up or YOU will be written up." HOW does this solve the problem? I hope the TA will be more proactive about this, and make corrections, instead of knocking the crew on the scene.
The union can also provide a list of risky locations in a circular to their members. Civil Service DOES permit a union to include leaflets and flyers with payroll checks, so here's an avenue where TWU can demonstrate that they're looking out for the membership. If management isn't interested, here's an opportunity for the union to show that they're earning their checkoff.
Folks need to look out for one another, this is an easy and legal way for it to be done.
Wow, I'm surprised. My experience with the A line, and Brooklyn North in general is that its the home of the better motor instructors. I'd expect that response from Queens. :)
Queens? Oh boy.....DON'T get me started. The ONLY good TSS's from Queens are assigned out of 95 and on the Brooklyn part of the F. The rest.....Like I said..... Don't get me started.
I'm glad they did the right thing.
They remove the gate AFTER somebody was killed. It is tantamount to locking the barn AFTER the horse is gone. Why didn't they think of that before something happened. Now the T/A will have to pay the family of the person who was killed. It would have been a lot cheaper for them to have removed the gate BEFORE something bad happened.
#3 West End Jeff
I heard about the G/O on the 5 where it will run local in the Bronx during rush hours for the next few months. I have 2 questions.
What are they doing, and will they eliminate some 5 trains as not to interfere with the 2?
most likely some 5s will be eliminated and guess which ones will be eliminated the most
The ones on the White Plains line? What I'm worried about is I usually get to Pelham Parkway on the 5 line about 8:30. One train comes and is packed. About 4 minutes later, and empty one comes. I hope they don't elimate that one. That's my train.
While we're on the topic, does anyone know what's going on with the 4/5/6 rush hours between Union Square and BB (another GO)? 8 extra minutes is a lot.
I'd imagine track replacement somewhere in between that segment that causes the train to run at 10mph max through the section.
I don't understand how track replacement would explain the GO (rush hour slowdowns on the downtown 4/5/6).
First of all, presumably that woud mean the track was actually replaced at night. They have to do that one track at a time, running all trains on the other track. But there's no such GO. And then it would affect either the 4/5 or the 6, but not both at once.
Secondly, once they replace track, do they have to run trains at 10 mph for a whole week to make sure they've done the job right?
The track from the the abandoned Worth St station-BB is skeletized so they have to run at 10mph at all times.And since there are so many more trains during the rush hours than during the rest of the day, that's why there could be an 8min delay.And they do the work during the late night,but 5 hours is not enough to get the whole thing done. How many times have seen it take 3 or 4 weekends,sometimes even more just to do track replacement.
There is some track replacement between 14th-Union Sq to Brooklyn Bridge, with the actual piece of track between the old Worth Street Station to Brooklyn Bridge Station being worked on, and trains have to run over it at about 10-15mph...
Carlton
http://www.cleanairbus.tk
The Cleanairbus Transit Page
1. They are putting in the new signal systerm. They need to redo all signals along the 2,5 from North of 149 GC to South of Bronx PK East on the White Plains road line and the Whole Dyre line so more G.O.'s will follow.
2. They may have an adjusted headway for both the #2,5 Lines.
It is for switch replacement. There are supplements for the 5 line. None for the 2 line.
Ok the switch and signal work will be done together. Just wait until the start switch replacements around E 180 St.
It is for switch replacement. There are supplements for the 5 line. None for the 2 line.
It is for switch replacement. There are supplements for the 5 line. None for the 2 line.
They are doing signal replacement on the WPR line and yes the 5 schedule might be adjusted to make room for 2's and 5's so they could run without much delay. If they thought of it, they should consider running skip stop service to shave some time instead of running ALL trains local.
That be hard to do since the trains don't go to the same trunk line in Manhattan. If you wanted to go to Penn Station but your stop was only served by the 5, you now have to make an additional transfer. It isn't worth it.
I repeat, the GO is for switch replacement around Jackson Ave. However, it is possible that signal work can be done as well.
You can say it until you're blue in the face. Opinion here has come down in favor of signal work, and you and the facts ain't gonna change it. 8-)
I know. I give up. (Waves the white flag.)
Have no fear, my friend. You are 100% correct. See my other post regarding track changes. It looks like they may have disconnected the homeball in the middle, south of Jackson. BTW, Track M from Freeman to East 180th St should still be functional, if there's someone to operate the switches from the tower.
-Stef
Ummm, how do you do switch replacement without totally disrupting service? It would at some point interfere with the operations of tracks 2 and 3.
You talk to the GO planners with that. I only stating what I read during my 15 minutes........
when and where does this trip start?
what is needed in the line of funding?
If possible I would like to get rollsigns of the following
1. Redbird side sign(with lenox stickers)
2. the same, without the lenox modifications
3. R32 side signs
4. R38 side signs
5. The mechanism that is used to hold and turn the signs
How would it be possible to get these???
Like this?
Redbird Rollsign with mechanism
Watch the shipping cost though!!!
Other rollsigns appear once in a while on eBay...
If they are in the city, I will pick it up myself
The seller lives in White Plains and the listing indicates that local pickup can be arranged. If you have wheels (or know someone who does), you can go up there to pick it up. Note that the item's up to 63.75 now and something like this can get pricey. I bought an R42 front-end picture window roll (the kind that take up the whole window) with the Eastern Division letters, it started at 40.00 and I wound up paying 85.00 for it.
wayne
But if it took up the whole window, wouldn't it be worth the $85 dollar cost?
Yes, it was worth every penny. It is the second edition, with "J", "K", "LL", "M", "S" and "QB" on it. The light blue "M" is especially impressive.
wayne
I paid $60.00 for my IND sign box back in 1980. Throw in the two additional mechanisms with IND signs at $20.00 a pop and it came to a hundred smackers. Worth every penny.
I would suggest that this sale, on e-bay might not actually be completed. NYCT and the MTA have been actually tracking such items for sale on E-bay and have taken action for sales of TA property. I have heard of two cases where employees have been disciplined for selling a key in one case and a rule book in the other.
I would suggest that this sale, on e-bay might not actually be completed. NYCT and the MTA have been actually tracking such items for sale on E-bay and have taken action for sales of TA property.
But who is to say this rollsign was not legally obtained? - the TA sold a bunch of them at one of the March of Dimes fantrips - 2 years ago i think. I'm sure others were sold or rescued from trash bins since.
True---I obtained my rollsign leagally at the last Transit Museum Auction. About 10 years ago.
Peace,
ANDEE
Many rollsigns are legally obtained. I have a side rollsign from the R-46's that I purchased for $20.00 at the Transit Museum Tag Sale about 10 years ago.
It's a great sign. It has every possible G train route, F train, N Train, R train, JFK express, etc.
And there in lies the true question---How do you know if the one for sale on e-bay is just a re-sale of one that someone bought legally?
Does anyone have access to roll-signs from other systems? Perhaps from the DC Metro before they went to the dot-matrix digital signs-
If we remember to the "early days" of the DC Metro, when it was just the Red, Blue & Orange, all the trains had roll-signs.
Mark
How hard is it to rep[lace the rollsigns?
R30.. Email me privately. I can send you to the right people and you wouldn't have to pay the ebay prices.
In my post I said for R30 to email me. Not R30 and everyone else who feels like it. I don't understand why I have recieved 46 emails from people asking the same question. Try eBay
Hate to break it to you, brah...
But those 46 people have asked THAT VERY SAME QUESTION before
R30 even barked it out... so if number 47 is getting
some sort of "direction" assistance, then so might'st well
give the same "direction" to the other 46 who asked long before..
Given the circumstances (and rarity of surplus material)
if you solicit assistance to ONE, you're bound to be
expected to be capable of soliciting assistance to all 47.
Jip happens.
Yeah, I've asked the question before, on more than one occasion. And no one ever mentioned having a source to get Subway parts cheaper than eBay. I'd love to find out how to do that.
---Brian
Yes, the e-bay prices are high. But if you can wait, the NY Transit
Museum is supposed to start selling them directly to the public sometime this year. That way the profit goes to support the museum,
and prices are expected to go way down, because of sudden availability
of lots of them!
WOW! I can't wait! I hope they are saving all the redbird parts that they take out before dumping them, such as the rollsigns, straphangers, and maybe even seats!
---Brian
SEATS!?
Those won't even make it OUT THE DOOH of the Annex Store.
Just imagine riding the 1 train home with a wrapped
Redbird SEAT package.. the thing would reach the ceiling...
and what's more, you'd prolly get carded, brah!
(even without a plastic bottle)
HeHe, that reminds me of when the Transit Museum used to have their tag sale/auctions. I bought a large track destination sign for the E train. It's about 6 feet long, and standard subway sign width. I also bought a long R-46 side rollsign, and various paper items, and a pillar sign. I took the subway to the auction, never expecting to buy all that. But the prices were cheap, and I couldn't resist. This must've been more than ten years ago.
The subway ride home was hilarious. There I was a late teenager, who then entered the subway at Jay Street-Borough Hall with this long sign, rollsign, etc, and stood their waiting for a F train there. I get on the F train, took that to Delancey for the J. SOme people gave me a funny look, but no one stopped me (I had the receipts so it was no problem if they did). I rode across the Willy B, transfered to the M at Myrtle. Not even the Station Clerk at my home station at the time stopped me. He looked, did a double take, and watched me walk out with the 6 foot subway sign.
That's OK. When I stole took possession of my wicker seat from the Q-car on the last day of the Myrtle Av El I took it home on the LIRR. At least I was guaranteed a seat.
At the last auction / tag sale, I bid to spend a day on the track geometry car. I was the only one to bid. Too bad I didn't have a camcorder THEN!!
--Mark
Wow. I didn't do any of the auction things. I went two seperate times but just bought the as priced tag sale/yard sale type items. And there were plenty of signs. I wish I knew they wouldn't do the sales anymore, because the prices were resonable. I have a "42" white with black letters sign from Lower 42 Street, and many other signs from then. I have straphangers also. They had all kinds of things. Too bad they don't do that anymore. I wonder why.
Not all the seat sections are so big you know. Look at the ends of the cars. I know someone who really wants one of those, and I wouldn't mind having one either. You could use them to make booths in a restaurant, for example.
---Brian
I reckon those are called "loveseats"...
Ditto on the booth idea for a restaurant...
A bit of a side-note on the question of roll signs. As some of the older redbirds & work-motors were being prepared to be 'reefed', some were found to have very old - never replaced rolls. The most coveted were the end signs with the 'POLO GROUNDS' destination. I heard that the few that were found were quickly 're-assigned'......
What exactly do they mean by 're assigned'?
Re-assigned to somebody's train room at home.
TD --
I must be missing something. Why would a redbird have a POLO GROUNDS
destination in its rollsign? The redbirds never ran there. Polo
Ground shuttle service ended in 1958 with Hi-V cars.
Polo Grounds is on the R-12/14/15 signs
I'd pay dearly for a 1969 R16/32/38 rainbow route rollsign. I'd imagine they're quite rare.
Thats the one I've been looking for, for a long while now, I'd pay VERY dearly for one of those.
The R16's had them to the end. I wonder if the TA had the wisdom to save some of them when they were scrapped 16 years ago.
Probably not.
That could be the reason their so rare. I wish the MTA would implement colors like that again, very colorfull.
But confusing. Imagine how the current Broadway line would look with 5 seperate colors for each route? Remember what 8th Ave looked like with 4?
Very confusing, good point. But, the MTA stil could take the existing routes and use some better colors.
It does make little sense how they chose the current ones. Blue for 8th Ave and orange for 6th Ave make perfect sense, being color coded by using the existing color of the major route on that line (A was blue, D was orange). But why was Lexington Ave given green, since none of the three routes were that color? Why was Broadway made yellow, given that the major Broadway route at the time (RR) was dark green?
The thing that really puzzles me is why the Jamaica, and the Myrtle lines were given brown? As if to see this is the shit train... It used to be teal for the M, and black for the J, I just don't get it..
The M was actually baby blue, not teal. I understand why a new color was used for Nassau St. If I was choosing, Lexington Ave would have been yellow, Broadway dark green.
Yes, your right it was baby blue; got a little confused with my colors their...
Hey, sometimes shit is black as well as brown. It all depends on what you ate.
While I thank you guys for showing me the link to the CNJ's Newark Bay Bridge, I sort of have another request for you guys. I am looking for pics of the following if you can find them or pass a link to me:
1) Coney Island Creek Drawbridge at Stillwell Terminal
2) Any pics of Broadway bridge in the open position
3) AK Draw in the closed position
4) Old Reynolds Channel Bridge in Long Beach( desperate for this one)
Thanks for the help fellas.
try this web site from the city dot
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/bridges/open/broad.html
I picked up the January 2003 multilingual edition of "The Map" from the Subway Museum Annex in GCT today. I see that you don't have this scan on your website, so I scanned it for you. I have an 8MB TIFF version if you want that instead to do your own editing. Enjoy.
Take Pride,
Brian
I forgot an "n" in the Subject
Thanks Brian,
Just updated the page with the new image!
-Larry
subway.com.ru
Uh, you've got two of the same regular January 2003's on your page now. You better check that. I just uploaded the TIFF to my site and sent you an email about it.
---Brian
Hey Brian,
Try refreshing the page and see what happens. I changed some file names before I uploaded and the old ones might be in your cache.
-Larry
That did the trick. BTW, I notice that your scans seem to be a bit sharper than the one I just did. What's your trick? I scanned it at 300 dpi. I'm using a sub-$100 scanner, though. Maybe you have a better model.
---Brian
I also scan at 300 dpi. I use an Epson Perfection 1650 scanner and reduce the tunbnail image to 6% and the larger scan to 22%.
-Larry
It's interesting what order they put the languages in (alphabetical by their names in English). I think English, Spanish, Chinese,... would make more sense. And why no Russian?
Well, what do you think? More photos taken today are here: Howard Beach
Take Pride,
Brian
I really hope this isn't what to come, with future NYC subway renovations.
Well, that sign is probably more AIRTRAIN than NYCT.
---Brian
That looks more like the Port Authority's handiwork, though they probably did consult with the MTA over the final plan (and as an aside, I really hope this isn't a preview of what the PA has planned in terms of design for its PATH transit hub at the WTC).
What's wrong with it?
I think it looks great.
Reminds me too much of the art design of some 70s sci-fi movie of a futuristic complex -- a little too heavy on the metallic look. It night be good for a spot here and there in whatever the PA has planned for the WTC site, but I'd rather they tone down the reliance on reflective metal in whatever they finally build (though admittedly, first time travlers on the A Train to the Howard Beach AirTrain stop will have no problem figuring out where they should go to transfer with that sign in place).
OK. I understand what you mean.
You have to admit, that huge sign is great for the visually impaired...
Excellent photos. Nice job.
Am I correct in assuming:
The current platforms are temporary?
The station will revert back to its original layout with two new platforms where the old ones were?
Yes, the currents platforms are temporary and it will revert back to a station with two side platforms and four tracks running inbetween them.
---Brian
Excellent photos. Nice job.
Am I correct in assuming:
The current platforms are temporary?
The station will revert back to its original layout with two new platforms where the old ones were?
These photos won't upload on my screen.. Are these same photos on the Path NYC website?If so, what is there website..
Thanks for your help..
N BWY
The PA's station is getting there.
Now MTA has to finish its renovations. It's not clear from the photos just how far they've gotten (though most of the work would be at the station building, not the platform.
Did you take photos outside fare control, or in places where MTA is adding ADA adaptations?
I was there yesterday. The mezzanine/stairwells leading to the 2 permanent platforms are a mess. There's still a lot of work to be done.
I took four photos of Canal St today. Since the last time I was there, they laid more track. The rest of the photos are here: Canal St (J/M/Z)
Take Pride,
Brian
01/19/2003
20 Howard Beach
04 Canal St (J/M/Z)
05 Times Sq (1/2/3/9)
11 Times Sq (N/R/Q/W)
04 Times Sq (Shuttle)
07 Aqueduct - North Conduit Av
03 96 St (B/C)
Total: 54
Take Pride,
Brian
Brian,
I liked your work on Aquaduct/ North Conduit. At the north end of the southbound platform are the egg slicers. The hours posted for the use of these exit/entrances is dependant on the dates and hours of the Racetrack.
It would be reasonable and prudent if the MTA extended these hours and added egg slicers to the north bound side.
Patrons heading to the city must walk a quarter of a mile to get to the northbound side from the southbound street side.
It would reduce traffic congestion and dangerous situations at the fare control area in the evening.
avid
Sounds like a good idea to me.
---Brian
On New Year's Day, my mom and I railfanned the F line to 179th St. - Jamaica and noticed very interesting things:
1) The off-duty R46's and R32's pancaked on the express track one right after the other from Union Turnpike to Parsons Blvd. or Sutphin Blvd. or so.
2) Very bad scheduling on the F! I beg to differ!
3) Tracks past 179th St.
Questions:
(Notice the relationship of the numbering of the statements and the questions!)
1) If there are subway trains (full-length) sandwiched between the other from those two destinations or so, how does one motorman get to the trains deep inside the tunnel?
2) Let's get one thing straight. How bad does MTA scheduling get? We walked down the stairwell for the uptown F at Roosevelt Av. The doors close and the train is pulling out as we finish climbing down.
We had to wait 18 minutes for the next uptown F. An uptown E came a few minutes later, but we'd have to transfer anyway for the NEXT F so we just remained at our place. I see a total of 3 downtown R's, 3 uptown G's, 1 downtown G, 2 uptown R's, one downtown F, and two downtown E's before the next F uptown came.
Frustrated by this catastrophic event, we wasted a total of 1 hr. and 5 minutes of our railfanning time (taking into account the event with NJT). What made it worse...
When we got to 179th for the downtown, I see THREE F's arrive within a minute of each other.
BALONEY!
When can MTA do anything right?
3) Are there just crossovers past 179th? or is there a yard?
4) Extra... What is the scheduling of the "limited express service only" E train to/from 179th? Times? Frequencies?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
To add:
What schedule was MTA running on New Year's Day? I was surprised to find a number of G trains at Roosevelt Av. when I thought the railroad was operating on a Sunday schedule.
Whenever it is not Mon to Fri 5AM to 9PM {give or take an hour}, the G runs full-length to Forest Hills. Sunday schedule indicates that the G should indeed be making its full run.
I thought the G was cut back to 23rd ELY on weekends because the conductors would be announcing transfer to the G at this station and not at the stations east of 23rd ELY. On many Sundays, I have seen NO G train at Roosevelt in both directions. Then there would be the era of "UFO trains" with those two additional spotlights, and being a 4 or 8 car consist and stating "Not In Service" at the front and back and the same for all of its LED signs on the side of the train.
Then again, there were also stray "off-duty" G trains running past Roosevelt for some reason.
huh?
Note: It was always the opposite before 12/16/01. It sounds weird, but the G runs full length off hours and is cut back peak hours and weekday midday. This is a concession for G riders who want to go to Queens, who got the short end of the stick to the V.
There is a two level yard past 179 St. 4 tracks on each level. Track maps on this site will show it.
I plan to post a string of 12 photos from my gallery of CONRAIL railroading. I have everything taken care of... so enjoy.
CONRAIL 1
We're in Selkirk, New York, on a snowy February 26, 1994 where CONRAIL's SENE (Selkirk-New England) has just departed Selkirk yard behind SD 60 No. 6855, on its way toward the Hudson River and the Berkshire Hills of Massachusetts.
Photo by Alan Crossley
Anglefire is being a bitch about directly linked images so if anyone wants to see the pic you need to right click on the link, copy shortcut and then past it in your address bar and hit return.
Even that method doesn't seem to be working for me.
Stink. This worked last time. Maybe should just use the Amazon honor system they have right here at the site. Will that work?
Um, I don't know what you mean.
I mean.. what sites do other SubTalkers use for their photos? They show up right on the posting area instead of a link.
I post them on my own server.
You can post them on any website that you OWN [not freebes].
The work around for this is to make a blank HTML page with this photo on it and then make a link to the HTML page.
: ) Elias
The way I get around angelfire's policy if I want to post a picture on SubTalk is I make a webpage consisting of only that picture, although you have to X out the ads. For example: http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/PCC.html
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember a square sign with T on it years ago, that I thought was an indication to the conductor how far they should keep observing the train?
I think Kevin's idea of the union and the workers themselves issuing warnings about obstacles is great. I see signs advising motormen about signal aspects and which line up to take. I see many signs on the walls of the stations and tunnels warning track workers about clearance. There should be signs warning conductors about hazards in each station.
It was a horrible horrible accident.
Doesn't "T" indicate a telephone location?
Not sure, but I remember seeing a "T" sign at the Roosevelt Av station...Queensbound platform, local side, close to where the C/R cab on a 600' train would be.
In that same location exists a "Momentary SW Light is ON" sign.
The "Momentary SW light" is a reference to momentary switches (outside door controls) on R-1/9 and R-10 cars which were so equipped. ;-)
Momentary switches and between car door controls (caps and triggers) are two separate animals.
IIRC some Conductor's Indication Boards had signs directing that the heat be turned off/on at certain locations, because if you kept three points of heat on for too long it could become "interesting." Perhaps someone with a longer institutional memory can supply the details.
Yep ... you're right. The "momentary" in question WAS the heat. Checked that out on 1689 just to be sure. Talked to a few other old timers as well since this got brought up here before and having operated the cars in question, I didn't remember it at ALL. Then again, I worked the D line and we didn't have any of those signs on the route that I remembered.
Since the heater breakers were off on 1689 on Subtalk Day, nothing happened when you turned the key in that switch. I remember asking you about it, too.
If we'd kicked on the heat, I'd wager that we'd see the trolley wire begin to DRIP. As nice as heat might have been to cut through the mist of that day, those suckers were HUNGRY for electrons. I wouldn't be surprised if the heaters going full tilt didn't draw more than the traction motors. But yeah, given that that was a topic here once and I didn't know the answer, wanted to find out for sure what the deal was there.
Heat draw vs. motors, 1898 style.
No joke.
At America's First Downtown Streetcar Musuem Baltimore Streetcar Museum the power draw is higher in Winter than in Summer.
Why? Even on the 19th Century cars with WH49 motors that draw next to nothing, the heaters draw more current than the motors do. The substation meters can't even detect the amps drawn by the 49's, but cut in the heaters and even little 1050 pulls close to 100 amps starting. Add in the 4 motor and air brake cars, all with heaters, and the winter bills show the increase.
According to our Electrical Engineer, we are supposed to have a demand meter, but we never get a spike that bumps up the rate, or our Treasurer (who pays the bills) doesn't notice. Since I sit on our Finance Committee and our Board of Trustees, the subject of exceeding demand costs never comes up, so perhaps we don't.
Not surprised. I remember one midwinter trip northbound on a D that had far too few traction motors willing to do their thing, and was told to shut off the heat on the train going over the bridge. Amusingly, it DID make a slight difference in "ooomph." One thing about those old IND cars, they had *HEAT* if you wanted it, and it was impressive if you cut in all three banks. Of course, it dimmed Brooklyn. :)
Ask Wayne aka Mr. Slant R-40 about heat in those old timers.
This post is a classic.
You had to be there.
I'll bet it was nice and cozy in the broom closet up front. :)
Wayne says he was literally pinned against the side of the car by one set of doors. It was so packed he couldn't move. He wasn't able to escape until they reached Continental Ave. Whenever I bring up that ride from hell, he says it was TERRIBLE!!
Hey Kev, what was longest it ever took you to close down at a station?
With or without flames? It could take anywhere from the required minimum of 10 seconds to an hour. All depended on what happened (or didn't) and how long it took an RCI to show up if I couldn't fix it. :)
I was referring to Wayne's classic post. Let me rephrase the question: what was the longest it ever took you to close down a crush loaded train with people still trying to squeeze their way on? Assuming the doors were working properly.
No more than probably 10 extra seconds or so. You'd play rock'em sock'em with the doors if you had to - things like that you didn't pay much attention to. The geese got the hint if the doors kept opening and closing on them. And often, I'd just close them and leave them closed, watching for the guard lights to go out one by one until the indication fairy smiled. There were a couple of times that once my motorman noticed, I'd step out between the gates, walk back a car or two and push them closed (handy hand grips on the outside, ya know) and he'd watch me come back, climb back on, wave at him and we'd go.
You didn't have the advantage of a PA system or anything else other than beating on an occasional moron with the doors for them to get the clue. Wasn't like these "genteel" times. :)
Yes, those hand grips were very enticing. I vivdly remember watching an AA train pull into 42nd St. in May of 1967 and seeing those hand grips on the doors. Almost wanted to grab and pull (I didn't). The doors opened and we boarded, I found a seat and soaked up the sounds. The compressors caught my attention first, then the moaning and groaning as the train accelerated. I stared at the closed doors as we headed n/b, then after 50th St., I stared out the window I was sitting next to, all the while listening to the bull and pinion gears singing away. Too bad we were getting off at 81st St. Before we left the platform, a D train howled past.
No doubt about it bud, you need THERAPY. I'm thinking of forming a small group session of subtalkers, maybe rent City Hall station for a day so everyone's thoughts can be constantly distracted by the screech of flanges as the 6's relay through. Hmmmm. I gotta talk to Unca Heypaul and Unca Dougie about how much we should charge for this. :)
In the meantime, to tide you through and take your mind off those damned Arnines long enough to breathe ...
15 Things to do at Wal-Mart while your spouse/shopping partner is
taking their sweet time:
1. Get 24 boxes of condoms & randomly put them in peoples
carts when they aren't looking.
2. Set all the alarm clocks in Housewares to go off at 5 minute
intervals.
3. Make a trail of tomato juice on the floor leading to the rest rooms.
4. Walk up to an employee and tell him/her in an official tone,
'Code 3 in housewares,...and see what happens.
5. Go to the Service Desk and ask to put a bag of M&M's on lay away.
6. Move a 'CAUTION - WET FLOOR' sign to a carpeted area.
7. Set up a tent in the camping department and tell other shoppers
you'll invite them in if they bring pillows from the bedding
department.
8. When a clerk asks if they can help you, begin to cry and ask
'Why can't you people just leave me alone?
9. Look right into the security camera, use it as a mirror and pick
your nose.
10. While handling guns in the hunting department, ask the clerk
if he knows where the anti-depressants are.
11. Dart around the store suspiciously while loudly humming the
theme from 'Mission Impossible'.
12. In the auto department, practice your "Madonna look" using
different size funnels.
13. Hide in a clothing rack and when people browse through,
say "PICK ME! PICK ME!"
14. When an announcement comes over the loud speaker, assume
the fetal position and scream "NO! NO! It's those voices
again!!!"
15. Go into a fitting room, shut the door and wait a while and then
yell loudly "There's no toilet paper in here."
I haven't even begun to reminisce about the R-10s.:)
Step AWAY from that brake handle ... put your hands where I can see them and walk slowly towards the homeball. :)
Heh. At least he was able to get OFF the train. If *I* were to do that, it'd be "desertion" and "dereliction of duty." They'd lock me up at Jay Street. :)
The T sign indicates a railway telephone box is located there.
This was pretty important in the days before radios. Nowadays
railway phones on the platform are rare, and the ones at the
blue light locations tend not to work.
The white T sign STILL exists in some stations. I saw one near the C/R position at Queens Plaza, Forest Hills-bound local track
Last week while I was riding PATH, I noticed that there were sections of track with third rail on both sides. Often one of the third rails was without a protection board. Anyone know the reason why?
While I'm talking about PATH, I also noticed that there is a section in Jersey where the train runs under an intact catenary system. Is there a reason why there is catenary overhead?
I am sure Terry Kennedy can elaborate, But the line once had joint service with the Pnnsylvanias Railroad. The poles and lines are still up since they are no problem.
Terry, The floor is yours!
I noticed that there were sections of track with third rail on both sides. Often one of the third rails was without a protection board. Anyone know the reason why?
When you see an uncovered 3rd rail, it is actually a piece of wood which is shiny because of the shoes rubbing on it. There are spots where the the trackbed is very low in the invert and without the wooden false 3rd rail, the shoes would hit the iron rings that line the tunnel (and short out, which would be bad). A 1965 study the PA commissioned from some consultants recommended raising the trackbed to a more normal height, but that was never carried out (it is more work than can be done over a long weekend, and would be service-affecting).
There are spots on tight curves (mostly around Morton St) where there is actually powered 3rd rail on both sides, but most cases are actually the wooden ones I mentioned above.
I also noticed that there is a section in Jersey where the train runs under an intact catenary system. Is there a reason why there is catenary overhead?
There are cross-pieces between the portal and Journal Square, but no actual lengthwise pieces (parallel to the rails) there, that I know of. Also, as far as I know it is not powered. Out toward Newark, where the PATH trackage parallels the other tracks, there is some overhead stuff. I'd assume the non-PATH tracks have active overhead power. I don't know if the pieces over the PATH tracks are isolated or not. I suspect that the PA's thinking is "not our stuff, not our problem" and dealing with inter-agency cooperation between the PA, NJT, Amtrak, etc. to schedule a time to de-power the sections and remove it is a low priority behind all the other stuff going on these days. If a piece comes down, it will probably push this project to a higher priority.
The PATH (former Hudson and Manhattan H&M) route between Journal Square and Newark follows the old Pennsylvania RR main line to/from Exchange Place, Jersey City. When the H&M began New York/Newark service around 1910, it was a joint H&M/PRR service due to the shared trackage. Fares between New York and Newark were higher than from Jersey City or Hoboken to NY. When the PRR electrified its tracks with catenary in the 1930s this stretch was of course included. For many years the PRR pocket timetables for NY-Newark service showed both Penn Station and Hudson Terminal (pre-WTC) schedules.
The last PRR passenger trains to Exchange Place ran in 1961, and the H&M became PATH in 1962. The joint service ended in 1967 when PATH assumed sole operation of the Newark stretch. Many catenary poles are still standing over the PATH tracks today, but the wires have been removed. In fact, the wires are gone from most of the ex-PRR freight tracks in the area (now Norfolk Southern and CSX) and diesel locos provide freight train power.
Thanks for the information about the PRR/PATH operation.
There is still wire up along a section of the PATH trackage. And I mean right over the PATH's track.
Yup, around the HACK bridge. That is former PRR heritage wire, it is de-powered and has been left to sit there because there is no point spending the $ to remove it. There might also be some PRR wire over the tracks in the HUDSON-DOCK area. This wire would have issues of Amtrak ownership.
The PATH trains run on the former PRR passenger main line to the former Harbourside Terminal aka Exchange Place.
I came up to 34th & 8th with the E train, and was at the front end of the station. When I exited, I ran into the largest mosaic that I have ever seen. It was about 60 feet long and about 6 feet high. It had a circus theme. I didn't see any identification plaque. It is not listed on the MTA Arts for Transit page. Now I'm wondering if it is part of the Penn Station complex.
Anyway here's two shots of the mosaic and a shot of the shoe shine stand in Penn Station.
Large Circus Mosaic
Paul, since the mosaic is at Penn Sta. perhaps it was paid for/donated by MSG -- since the mural depicts one of their main attractions.
I see you've been out and about..
I was at Grand Central today around noon and their shoeshine stand was equally deserted.
It is part of the subway station (not the train station), installed during the recent rehab.
Riding the 8th Av subway up from Canal Street to 34th Street the other day, I was happy to note that the tunnels were still lit with incandescent bulbs. The blue lights were also simple blue bulbs, rather than the high intensity blue lights in other parts of the system.
The entire "A" (underground, of course) except for portions between High St to Bway-Nassau St, and 125th St to 135th St. are still incandescent. I'm not sure of the tunnel between Chambers St and Canal St.
Thanks for the info. I hope the budget crunch keeps them for modernizing the lights.
From 145 to 2168new lights are goign in. Sorry! nother contract wiull do 168 to 207
Another example where the MTA spends way too much on cosmetic improvements and far to little modernizing it's system to reduce costs. The money saved on maintance and electricity would pay for cosmetic improvements down the road
I understand it is not as simple as changing a light bulb in many cases. New wiring needs to be run. But these types of un-sexy enhancements would be the first to be done if the MTA were a private business
Well, the enhancement of newer lighting, as contracts are let is
not controlled by the MTA or NYCTA. The newer high-effiency lighting
is installed by the New York Power Authority under their HELP projects.
NYPA under this program also replaced all coal furnaces
at NYC Public Schools and the more energy efficient refrigerators
at New York City Housing Projects. Higher efficiency lighting at
schools thruout New York State.
The New York Power Authority is a quasi-state agency, that does not
receive funding from the state budget. It operates as a non-profit
corporation and generates it's own revenue, the non-profits is what
supports the various programs.
I know, we'll hear from Captain Kirk, because NYPA is also a dumping
ground for political favors.
;-) Sparky
Yo Unca Sparky, need I disappoint? REACTOR SCRAM, BREAKER TRIP. Boowahahaha ... yeah, PASNY is a dumping ground, but it's a proud part of the Department of Redundancy Department, Bureau of Western Mythology, A Proud Service of the Lost Electricity Reclamation Agency ... I don't frigging care, I live in BRUNOLAND, where you must make you OWN "watts for tots" ... where EVERY telephone call is a "crank" call, where EVERY sperm is scared, where BRIAN died for your sins. :)
Court Square, NEXT STOP, Queens Boulevard. Change for the EE, E and F ... watch the closing gates, please. :)
This information ought to be news to MTA Chairman Kalikow, NYCT President Reuter, and their staffs. All this time they've been designing lighting contracts, figuring out how to pay for them, letting them, administering them, and creating General Orders so the contractors can install them. What a waste of time THAT's been!
David
Bottom line, who pays the contractors on this type of upgrade, even
though it's on MTA property? Who is the supplier of the power that
operates the system? It ain't Con Ed, they may be the deliverers but
not the generators of same. Since this is a transit oriented board,
want to know who NYPA is try nypa.gov
;-) Sparky
Yes, NYPA (New York Power Authority) supplies subway system power (except in the Rockaways) -- so what? The assertion was made that NYPA is performing lighting upgrades in the subway system. That's patently false.
I looked at the NYPA website and could not find any references to the NYC subway system. If I missed one, please let me know where it is and I will be delighted to go back and read it.
David
Correction: NYPA supplies power for the subway. It's DISTRIBUTED by Con Ed, except in the Rockaways, where it's distributed by whatever replaced Long Island Lighting Company.
David
I am pretty sure that the 4th Avenue (Brooklyn) subway is still all incandescent lighting.
--Mark
for now, Mark. New Lights are being installed from Pacific to 95. They will be Compact Fluorescent.
In yesterday's Times, there was an article with the suggestions from 36 readers on how a fare increase could be avoided.
First, Add a Bar Car
Plenty of them are downright nutty, but it's supposed to be that way. This one is funny:
Buy solar- or electric-powered buses, which would save on fuel and would probably not be any slower than the current fleet.
JOE WESTERFIELD
Upper West Side
I can see it now: Bus service runs daily from sunrise to sunset, however service may be suspended due to cloudiness. For more accurate hours of operation, consult an almanac.
"I can see it now: Bus service runs daily from sunrise to sunset, however service may be suspended due to cloudiness. For more accurate hours of operation, consult an almanac. "
... Passengers using express busses through the Battery Tunnel are encouraged to wear comfortable shoes as they will likely have to push the bus all or most of the way...
>>Reduce the free-ride program for high school students. Give free rides only to students with excellent grades; those with failing grades pay full fare. Students will never take their education for granted again.
DAVID W. YIP
Upper West Side<<
I would like to say that,first off, this man is an IDIOT!!!!! It is not fair to any student to do that to their means of transportation. The whole idea of the Metrocard for students is that the parents will not have to pay for a ride to school which should normally be provided by school buses. BTW: even before Metrocards, there were free bus passes to students.
I agree, such an idea to give free passes to students who perform well academically is downright foolish and ridiculous.
I definitely agreed with this one.
CUT THE FRILLS
Stop spending so much on expensive mosaics, like those in the tunnel between the 7 train and the F train. People don’t use the subways because of the décor.
MORAIMA SUAREZ
Greenwood Heights, Brooklyn
28 St/B'way and 8 St/B'way come to mind.
I disagree. Artistic expression (the LEGAL kind) is important to transit as it improves station appearance and lends creativity to our system. Arts for transit funds many of these and some artwork (like the mural at the south end of the 2/3 plat at Penn) are an outright gift of the artist. Artistic expression even extends to rolling stock, as in the Slants and R-142 ends. Mosaics and murals are part of what makes NYC Subways unique in their own right, without adding substantially to the operating cost of the system. August Belmont insisted that artwork be included in his stations "because they tend to uplift and refine".
I'm not necessarily against the installation of artwork. The reason why I disapprove of the artwork at 28 and 8 is because it just looks "cluttered" on the wall. The artowrk would have been good to have in the fare control area and not on the platform walls. I just think that they went overboard with the wall artwork at those stations. The mosaic tileband on the top is sufficient artwork, in my opinion.
I'm ok with artwork as long as it's restricted to mezzanine and fare control.
How about, as I said before, innovative, artistic answers to rolling stock design, too? I agree that big art projects should be kept in areas where its aesthetic value would be enhanced, like mezzanines. Some stations, however are IMPROVED by their artwork, like 81/CPW, and Fifth Ave./60 St. Having said that, let me get back to rolling stock: Today's technoboxes need a little color to offset their cold steel appearance. I always thought the red- and greenbirds were a welcome departure, as too the R-10 "Ocean" paint scheme of 1960's Rockaway. I especially liked the blue-fronted Subway Series Redbirds of the 7 line, even though I'm a Yankee fan.;-)
At 81/CPW, 5 Av/60 St, and also 14 St/8 Av, the artwork was subtle and it didn't really take over the whole station, so to speak. But I do agree artwork helped to liven up those stations. I also agree that our trains need some color. Endless sights of silver gets hackneyed and tiresome. Bringing back the blue stripe that used to run along the sides of trains (or even the blue doors on the R32) would be a start =)
>>> The artowrk would have been good to have in the fare control area and not on the platform walls. <<<
I predict the art work will disappear from the platform walls the first time an absent minded art lover steps backward over the wide yellow line while trying to get more perspective on one of the murals. :-)
Tom
Actually, the contract that the City drew for the Interborough REQUIRED the "elegance." Belmont didn't like it at all at first (a cost), but the appreciation of the efforts once the subway opened did encourage him after the fact.
There is an article in Newsday that identifies the conductor as a 39 year old woman who had a teenage daughter. The article also describes the actions of some passengers who tried to save her. It's a heartbreaking story.
Conductor's Tragic Death
Not to detract from the seriousness of the situation or the tragic loss (my condolences to the family) but the statement:
"...The subways invent new ways to kill or maim on a daily basis,"
is typical of Newsday reporting. Blame everything on the system (and knock NYC at the same time).
There had to be a certain amount of carelessness on the part of the unfortunate conductor. The same would have to be said of the 2 unfortunate track workers.
I am not saying that the MTA should not take steps to make things safer butsome of the responsibility must be on the workers themselves. If you work on the tracks you are well aware of the risks and should take extra care (I am not buying into the rule book excuse). I also think most conductors know the visual aspects of the platform limits so that they have their heads back inside before the end of the platform comes along - that is - know a point on the wall or on the support beams that would indicate to you that the end of the platform is coming up (and quickly).
I know many will disagree so go ahead. I've said my piece.
In the case of the this incident then conductor was new to the line this would not have experience in recognizing the end of this particular platform.
I completly agree that it is very difficult if not impossible to safeguard workers who are careless. Although the fence could have been further away from the platform edge the conductor ashould have known better then to have her head that far out. It is still a possibility that she lost her ballance and ended up leaning further out longer then she wanted. Theses answers we will never know. May she rest in peace
The only way to completly safeguard conductors is to end the practice of leaning one's head out the window and close doors and watch for draggers via cctv from inside the cab
In the case of the this incident then conductor was new to the line this would not have experience in recognizing the end of this particular platform.
If that was the case, you'd have hundreds of dead or injured conductors. Before I became a C/R I had only used 4 lines in the entire system for getting back and forth to school, the A, D, R and 4. I had never set foot on any other line, so going around I was unfamiliar with them all. And only then did I have the C/R's view. Until I was familiar with other lines I had to observe carefully. All that's to it.
CCTV isn't the answer. There are still man small ones out there (Canal on the A comes to mind), where you can barely make out anything. Imagine what they'd put in the cabs. They aren't going to put CCTV with 13" screens in there. And in reality, there's no room for CCTV. Also, where do you install the cameras? Every car? Then you have to have 8 to 10 CCTV's or a smaller amount with their screens divided.
I'll trust my own observation before I do a CCTV.
Well, it's Ray Sanchez writing, and he has an anti-TA bias. Some of the stuff he writes is knuckle-dragging stupidity, but I think the most salient focus of this column was the inherent dangers of being a TA employee and the concern of other passengers. That part was good.
How sad. How very sad. Still, I am pleased to read, that once again our New Yorkers tried to do the right thing. I've gone to SHOOTINGS and seen the patient lying there, no one having lifted a finger to help him, just standing over him watching him bleed. So I'm glad to hear that at least this time, folks tried to help her until EMS arrived. I'd rather bystanders do something, than watch the patient die. That said, Railroads and subways are INHERENTLY dangerous places to work, and before people try to say the C/R was negligent in some way, I hope folks remember that bad things are gonna happen, sometimes through no fault of the victim at all.
Bravo to the riders who helped out. They could not save Ms. Bennerson, but undoubtedly their care and unselfish attitude will save someone the next time.
Truly heartbreaking indeed and I especially feel sorry for the teenage daughter b/c now Ms. Bennerson's daughter is without a mother. That was a good article, especially the part when the article said TA workers are underappreciated, which I think they are IMO but some things Mr. Sanchez said were flat out unnecessary.
The date that the Pennsylvanian will truncated at Pittsburgh is now Feb 10th. The Pennsylvanian will have its number changed from to 44 and 44 instead of 42 and 43. The Pennsylvanian will also replace Keystone train 641 and 650 from NYC to HBG. The eastbound Three Rivers will now leave Chicago at 10:30 and arrive Philly at 5:30 the next day on a 39 minute faster schedule due to the freight car switching at HBG and CHI being eliminated. So all you railfans get out and ride the Pennsylvanian while you can before it goes away.
BTW, I think that Amtrak is being boneheaded about this. The train should be turned at Toledo, where there is plenty of yard and platform space. The Cleveland-Sandusky-Toledo is a big potential rail market that would take advantage from the single day service to NYC and back. Terminating at 4:30 in PBG wastes 4-5 hours of potential travel time.
Not so fast. Mon-Sat, the Pennsylvanian will leave PGH at 7:30am. A feeder bus to/from Cleveland is fine, but beyond that is not something they can afford to risk now after Ohio had their daytime train for four years and didn't use it. We know NYP-PGH works. Cleveland-Toledo already has the LSL. Either Ohio gets served in the middle of the night or Philly-NY does, and the latter didn't work.
The trip is something like 10 hours to Cleveland and 12 to Toldeo. If you board at 7AM you can be on the NEC that same day. I'd suggest a Cleveland termination point, but Amt dosen't have facilities there.
To leave Cleveland at 7am means it would be in direct conflict with the Three Rivers east of Youngtown/Alliance. I'd make it leave PGH at 8am with a feeder bus out of Cleveland at 5am. Ohio and Pennsylvnania ought to split the cost of it.
Firstly,condolences to the family of the affected conductor,this story has reminded me of a similar event here in London.
I can't remember the year,but other than the main tunnels of the Northern Line (Morden-Golders Green/East Finchley) one other tunnel exists on the above ground section on the Edgware Branch.
Going Northwards just after leaving Hendon Central is 'Burroughs Tunnel' (so called as the street above it is of the same name).
A 1959 stock tube train (where the conductor guard has a full height doorway to look out) left on its way to Edgware and the conductor saw a southbound train coming towards him on the next track.
He remained at his position long after the platform had finished to wave to the guard on the southbound train.
He did this and whilst he was looking back struck his head on the tunnel mouth then falling back into the train fatally injured.
On arival at the next station (Colindale) the train stopped and the doors did not open. Further investigation by the motorman and station staff found the guard in a very very bad condition on the floor.
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Shortly afterwards a 'Danger-Tunnel ahead' sign was put up (which remains to this day) to remind staff .
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Now that the grade of conductor/guard has been withdrawn and all of Londons Tube operate OPO this is unlikely to happen again,indeed Victoria and Bakerloo line driving cars have a traction interlock preventing the motorman taking power if his/her cab window is more than half way open.
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Looking at photos of the NYC accident site,surely a limited clearance board should have been in place to remind staff that this above ground station has limited clearance rather than a 'normal' platform end??
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Rob
London UK
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Warning signs posted at the C/R's position over the plat (such as OBSTRUCTION 450' AHEAD) would be a step in the right direction. But our transit system is chock full of wayside objects which can be deadly, so as others have posted here, adherence to the rules is of paramount importance.
It's sad that these sorts of incidents have to happen.....
The same sort of thing happened about three years ago on BART in San Francisco at the Embarcadero station. The train operators usually hang out to check the platform as they close the doors, and this operator somehow hit the start button and the train took off and the operator's head hit the tunnel wall at the end of the station. When the train got to West Oakland, no doors opened, so passengers went tot he cab to see what was up and found the operator fatally injured on the floor.
So the train started up and rolled before the doors were even closed?
Visiting Atlanta last week and waiting for my hotel shuttle bus to take me to MARTA and my plane home, I came across a old black&white photograph in a coffee-table kind of book. The location was recognisably in downtown Atlanta on on Peachtree near Five Points, and showed a dozen or so streetcars on different streets.
What I noticed particularly was that while some of them had pretty standard single trolley poles, others had double trolley poles running on twin-wire overhead. Much as trolley-coaches do, but these were definately rail-bound streetcars.
Most streetcars use the rails for the DC return current; but clearly not in this case. Anybody know why these ones were different.
Also does anybody know of a good history of the Atlanta streetcars?.
I'm not aware of any book on Atlanta's streetcar system. In general, the South is less well-documented than other parts of the country. From Hilton and Due's "The Electric Interurban Railways in America", Atlanta's system of local and suburban car lines was operated by Georgia Railway and Power Company and conversion to buses occurred in 1947.
I remember that Atlanta had an extensive trolley bus system, and rode one line in 1953 when passing through town on the way to Florida with my family. Trolley coach operation ended in September, 1963.
Hopefully Subtlaker Grether will read this, he's the expert on the Georgia Power and ATS systems. I have a thick, fifty page article from Motor Coach Age given to me by Grether that all about the history of the Atlanta system, it's very detailed. There are some photos of trolleybuses that *look* like regular trolleys and that also ran on top of the tracks of the trolleys. Perhaps you were seeing this? All the photos I saw have the trolleys with one pole.
For a few years in Atlanta Georgia Power combined overhead for trolley coaches and streetcars where the routes overlapped. The first route converted to tc from streetcar was the #20 to College Park in 1937, then in 1940 the #23 Buckhead was converted. Both were a huge success (the roads were widened into the streetcar RoW and Georgia Power no longer had to maintain tracks) and GP decided to convert the entire system to tc rather than purchase PCC cars and have to invest capital in track upgrades.
The vehicle with the two poles is indeed a trolley coach. The early ones did look like PCC streetcars (especially the ones built for the #23 by St Louis Car Co).
-Paul
There is at least one book out on Atlanta streetcars: The Trolley Titans: A Mobile History of Atlanta, by O. E. Carson. It was published by Interurban Press in 1981 as their Special #76. According to the information on the back of the title page, it is the first of a three-book set (the second due within a year as of that writing, the third who knows when); I don't believe that these other volumes were ever issued, however (although I may be mistaken). I've leafed through my copy and don't find any photographs that show two poles on a streetcar, although there is more than one shot of a trolleybus running on a route that has streetcar tracks visible in the pavement.
The cheapest used copy I found (in a quick perusal of amazon.com and abebooks.com) is around $50 - in Australia. In the US, copies start at $75 and go up from there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The article I mentioned above was also written by that guy. It probably was just excerpts from the book.
Another good source of info is a two volume set "Mule to MARTA" by Jean Martin published in the late 1970s by the Atlanta Historical Society. It traces Atlanta's transit history up to about 1963. Vol III was never published because the Author passed away. Copies will occationally appear on e-bay or in abebooks.com
The article by Gene Carson in the Motor Coach Age is actually substantially more detailed than some of the stuff in his book. It focuses more on trolley coaches and bus operations though. I corresponded with him a few years ago and he is still working on Vols II and III of the Trolley Titans.
I know the author personally, and I will attempt to get any info I can on the subject.
I'll post what I find out, when I find out.
Thanks Dan... would be interesting to know if the other promised volumes were ever published.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ask, and ye shall receive.
Spoke to Gene and had a nice conversation. He was somewhat flattered to hear that he made the Web. We had a nice time comparing our Cleveland and Pittsburgh streetcar experiences in the 1950's. He's a good friend and a fascinating man.(He goes by the dimintive of his middle name, BTW) and here's the "Straight Dope" (apologies to Cecil Adams). :)
The first book was published by Interurban Press in 1981. The second and third volumes were not published.
Interurban Press got bought out by Pentrax after the death of Ira Swett. The Atlanta series was not included. Pentrax wasn't interested.
Gene is making revisions to vols 2 & 3, and expects to have them published by a noted street railway publisher somewhere around 2004, barring unforseen consequences.
The reference given to O.E. Carson's volume, "Trolley Titans" is the best one. O.E. (Gene) lives in Baltimore and is still active at B.E.R.A., where he restored Atlanta's #948. He's a most amiable fellow and certainly the best source on Atlanta traction. There was a "Mule to MARTA" book around, or talk of it, many years ago. I do not know whether or not said volume ever was published.
I've seen "Mule to MARTA" at my school's (Georgia Tech) library, but I only leafed thru it. The book DOES mention future volumes and it ends without talking about present day MARTA. AFAIK, they weren't published.
Cincinnati had double trolley pole streetcars, including PCCs, so such things definitely existed. (I don't know the engineering reason for their use by that city.) They were certainly a rarity, and I don't know of any other large system in the U.S. that had them.
Double-wire overhead for streetcars was used in some cities.
Cincinnati comes to mind, plus selected lines that surrounded
Washington DC. The reason for doing this is to eliminate the
danger of electrolysis, which happens when the 600v return current,
having entered the rails, then exits and travels through the
earth in search of a better ground. This causes oxidation of
metal pipes and other subterranean structures. It's all very
complicated. Most systems dealt with it by having adequate
rail bonding, cross-bonding adjacent tracks, and using negative
feeder cables. Some places were paranoid and required double-wire
or conduit.
HOWEVER, Atlanta, AFAIK, was not one of them!
The reason for doing this is to eliminate the danger of electrolysis, which happens when the 600v return current, having entered the rails, then exits and travels through the earth in search of a better ground. This causes oxidation of metal pipes and other subterranean structures. It's all very complicated. Most systems dealt with it by having adequate rail bonding, cross-bonding adjacent tracks, and using negative feeder cables. Some places were paranoid and required double-wire or conduit.
Opposition in Cincinnati came from the local telephone company. The local Bell company was not using adequate grounding, when the trolleys were introduced. Trolley opeation "caused" interference on the phone lines. The phone company forced the double wire system, with the ground return being reserved for Ma Bell.
The only other example for a double wire system that comes to mind is Havana Cuba.
The only other example for a double wire system that comes to mind is Havana Cuba.
And Key West, Florida.
OK, here's a dumb question, Jeff. In places where trolley buses shared the same ROW with trolleys were there three wires or did the trolleys use one of the two trolley bus wires for power?
Depends on the location.
In Baltimore there were both shared wires, and separate wires for joint streetcar and TC operation. It depended on street widths and locations.
in 1940 when the Baltimore Transit Company was converting the 10 line to TC, the wire controversy arose. The 10 line ran in the median strip of Roland Avenue to its terminal at Upland Road, sharing the tracks with the 29 line. BTC proposed to add the TC wires over the traffic lanes, with the 29 retaining the tracks. This would have had six sets of wires and would have made Roland Avenue a forest of overhead.
The Roland Park Civic League wanted the TC's and the streetcars in a pave median strip.
BTC said that was not acceptable, so the 10 line was cut back to a loop at Roland & University as a TC line and the 24 line, a shuttle from Upland Road to Lakeside (an early amusement park cir. 1895) was extended to Roland & University to connect former 10 car riders to the new TC loop. 24 also got all-night service (for the first time) from Upland Road to University Parkway since the former 10 car had all night service.
When the 30 line (Fremont Avenue) was converted to TC in 1950, the street was wide enough for separate TC wires and streetcar wires.
On Market Street in San Francisco the streetcars, which share the road with trolley coaches, use one of the two wires. How the operator decides which of the two wires to use I do not know. It could be the wire that is closest to the center of the rails.
How the operator decides which of the two wires to use I do not know.
It's whichever one is the positive one... the other wire is the negative (ground) so the circuit wouldn't be complete.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If the lights don't go on, then he chose the wrong wire! Thanks for the info.
Right! Kind of like when I put the pole up on the span wire rather than the energized one at Branford :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When looking the same direction the coach is traveling, the positive is usually the left.
It's important when changing ends on shared trolleycoach
wire to pull one pole down first then raise the other pole, otherwise
a polarity mistake will result in a dead short through the car.
Good point!
At one time Cincinnati had some double-end cars that were set up for two-wire pickup. Changing ends on those had to be interesting - I've heard that there was a very specific sequence of which poles to pull off and place on the wire in which order. I don't have enough neurons firing right now, however, to figure out what order would be optimal or why.
Frank Hicks
The reason they had two poles was because the local phone company was worried about stray current from the negative return ground from the rail screwing up the telephone system whose lines were buired under the street.
Real simple:
1. Pull both poles off the wires.
2. Go to other end of car. Put right hand pole up first. (In two wire systems the negative wire is always the one closest to the curb line of the street.) Right hand pole is negative. If left hand pole is put on hot wire first, the car becomes ungrounded. You can get zapped!!
Streetcar systems that did not use the track as the ground usually did not worry about polarity, as series wound motors are not polarity sensitive. Washington's conduits would get the polarity of the contact rails reversed due to a grounding problem in the conduit. AFAIK, there were never warnings to the motorman about reversals. They would usually reverse an entire sevtion, from a section break to the next section brake. The cars never noticed.
Speaking of Washington (and New York), the only strange part of being a motorman was that usually the plow was carried on the number two end, a motorman on a double end car had to be aware of which end he was operating from. Electric switches had to pulled properly, so if you were operating from the number one end, the plow was in the rear, but if running from the number two end, the plow was in the front. Both systems had specific rules that a car was never to enter an electric switch until the preceeding car had fully cleared the switch.
On overhead lines I suspect all lines were double track and crossovers had section insulators separating the two lines.
If we could get the WayBak machine from Mr. Peabody, we could go to Cincinatti or Washington in the double wire days and find out what they did ourselves.
I'm beginning to wonder if I misinterpreted the picture I saw. Basically it was an arial shot (probably from a building window) and showed a queue of what I took to be all streetcars, all clearly adhering to the tracks visible front and aft of the queue. Some older looking single pole cars; some newer looking (rounded styling not unlike a PCC) with twin poles.
Since I posted I've found a very similar scene on the web, but taken from a lower level, and it does look from that angle as if those more modern cars could be trolley-buses. It is at www.dekalbhistory.org/Scrapbook/graphics/photo4.JPG.
Thanks for all your replies and info.
Yes, I suspect that you did misinterpret the photo... even in the one you've posted, though, you can't see that they are on wheels rather than rails, so a view from even farther above would be even more confusing. But it sparked some interesting discussion... and I'm looking forward to learning if the other books referenced ever did get published or not.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My library has Mule to MARTA and Trolley titans. In both listings, they say they have volumes 1 AND 2. I'll have to look at this. I'll get back to you this evening what is in the books.
I went to the library, and only found volumes 1. I don't believe volumes 2 were published.
Those are ACF-Brill trolley coaches
They were built in 1946.
These two numbered cars of the Triplex are now in the Subway Museum. My question is when these cars were in use were they on my #4 Sea Beach BMT Line or Bob's #1 Brighton Line? Come on guys, help me out and please give me some good news.
Probably both Fred. D-Types, like any other equipment of the day weren't assigned to one line only. If they were on the Brighton and gone in inspection, they could have been assigned to the Sea Beach afterwards.
They even probably ran on the West End in their last year of service. That also goes for 6112 too.
Bill "Newkirk"
In Greller's book, 6112 appears as part of a northbound Brighton Express.
"In Greller's book, 6112 appears as part of a northbound Brighton Express."
That's because they were on the line and not the Sea Beach, Heh !
Bill "Newkirk"