happy new year!!!!!!!!1
You're late!
Your posting came in at 5 seconds after 12!
Happy New Year !
I posted exactly 1 year before that post to the second!!
similar title too
Happy New Year to all the Sub-Talkers!
Chuck Greene
New year ain't for another 3 days, switch to the real new year! Perihelion: 12 am 1/4/02! Hey, then theres less crowding in Times Square. And July Fourth at 2 am marks the Aphelion, or halfway round the sun, a twofer!
BTW: Perihelion is the closest approach the earth will make to the sun, in this case 91,405,340 miles, beacuse of Kepler's first law, all bodies travel in an ellipse with one Focus at the sun, thus we have Aphelion, the furthest we get from the sun, 94,510,793 miles.
Alright alright, I'll bend to convention. Happy New Year, and a good 2003 to everyone. May your Redbirds be plentiful and your Widecabs few (unless you're a T/O or C/R and like that sorta thing).
Did I make it? I made the last 2002 post.
No, I see my neighbor beat me to it.
Happy new year!!!
May there be another ERA trip this year
You made it David. HAPPY NEW YEAR'''
Larry, RedbirdR33
You were the last posting for 2002.
But the 2nd for 2003.
Nope, R30 beat you by a minute and 15 seconds but hey you have the 2nd post of 2003.
I'll gladly share the honor with a fellow Upper West Sider.
Well, '02 is behind us and now we start a new year 2003. Hopefully everything will be be OK this year, and best wishes to ALL!
wayne
Happy New Year to everybody on "Sub Talk" from #3 West End Jeff.
#3 West End Jeff
Happy New Year to you!
Let's hope that "Sub Talk" doesn't get shut down this year because someone misbehaved. I'll make sure to behave because I want to help keep this message board going.
#3 West End Jeff
TO ALL, A HAPPY, HEALTHY, AND SAFE NEW YEAR.
HAPPY NEW YEAR SUBTALKER'S!!! Hope you all have a great and way past cool New Year!
The December Subtalk report is in!
12,060 messages were posted by 378 posters. This is compared to 12,123 last month, a month which was shorter by one day
TOP 10 POSTERS:
SelkirkTMO 590 4.89% Rank unchanged
Flatbush41 424 3.52% Up from 16th
David J. Greenberger 356 2.95% Up from 4th
GP38 Chris 314 2.60% Down from 2nd
Douce Man 305 2.53% Up from 13th
American Pig 238 1.97% Up from 17th
AlM 236 1.96% Up from a tie at 8th
Elias 231 1.92% Up from 31st
BMTman 230 1.91% Up from 14th
SUBWAYSURF 210 1.74% Up from 15th
Those from last month's top ten that didn't make the cut:
Steve B-8AVEXP was 3rd, is now 13th
RonInBayside was 5th, is now 18th
#4 Sea Beach Fred was 6th, is now 12th
Peter Rosa was 7th, is now 11th
JohnS was tied at 8th, is now 50th
Paul Matus was 10th, is now 14th
25.99% of posts were made by 2.65% of posters
The average poster made 31.905 posts
The median number of posts made by a single individual was 7.5
50% of all posts were posted by the top 29 posters and by the bottom 349 of posters.
These statstics are almost unchanged from the previous month, that is probably true every month. There is no sense in posting them ever again.
I strongly suspect that the last minute push in posting may have been related to people trying to get on to the top 10. I did post 114 messages in the last two days on 2002. That was not because of who you are, but for different reasons altogether.
Still, most of those posts were on-topic, we didn't have any major flame wars or bad political discussions. If the top ten lists encourages an explosion of interesting threads, then I'm all for it.
"The median number of posts made by a single individual was 7.5 "
Please explain how the median poster made 7 and a half posts?
I've had to write a few posts muliple times due to AOH problems, does that count? The half post was the initial, erased by the gremlins in AOL's "Code?"
There were an even number of posters. Thus there wasn't one middle poster but two. It just so happens that one of those middle posters made 7 posts, the other one 8.
Damn Pig, me & you really jumped positions in our post count over the last month but we didn't really make too many off topic posts so we didn't do it just to inflate post count.
This is a far different top 10 list from last month and once again, SelkirkTMO takes the cake. Me, you, Elias & Douce Man really made a jump in the ranks. I was away from here for 10 days in December and I might of ACTUALLY been on top [which would be real surprising] but hey, I'm not sweating it.
And sadly, I really was trying to cut back. :(
HEY! Me and duh boys downstate got big money ridin' on you at Belmont. We sez, when a state employee getz bought, he stayz bought.
Heh. Stopped sharecropping on the Paturkey farm back in 1995. Too well to attend. But if you can give me a push into the Arnine cab, be willing to take out the field of horses. :)
Oops, that's right; it's your pension money that gets spent on gambling, not mine. But why are you wasting time online all day if you're not paid by the government?
Sending email to customers who have the day off and are angry that I might have had it off, looking for nasties out there to cover with our BOClean stuff (the KIDDIES are home writing nasties) and various other things we do every day here. While stuff's flowing in and out, I duck in here to kill time while the machine is otherwise occupied. Gotta hit the internet to find things, so it's this or another same old same old porno site. I prefer train porn myself. :)
Maybe you should switch to decaf : )
Actually you did cut back by over 200 posts from your November total of 803.
No question about it then - we've gotta get Steve 8 Ave Exp back on his company network and I've gotta get me a LIFE. :)
LOL! 8-) Come on Selkirk, you DO have a life, you cutting back further would be rather strange; there's nothing wrong with posting a lot of meaasges as long as it is logical.
I dunno ... there are times that I feel like John Belushi crushing a beer can (errr, R62) on my forehead, raising eyebrow and dancing back and forth. RAMMING SPEEEeeeeed! :)
You actually managed to cut back significantly that first week. Because the index for the whole month is too large for Word to process quickly, I do it week by week.
Sorry, I don't keep the individual week's files, I add the data for the following week as soon as I process it.
At first, I felt guilty for seemingly hogging the place ... but I got over it. :)
But it did make me try to cut back. Alas, there's so many things that appear here that cry out for me to chide in. It's TRULY a fun place.
5 up from 13.
305 postings.
I didn't think I was making so many postings.
Awwwww... I guess if they're time consuming, I can understand your not wanting to post them, but I would guess there are enough numbers people here that the rankings would be really cool. I like them.
I will keep posting the rankings, just not the average and median.
How about ranking for the entire year?
This would require that I actually collect and sort the data for each month.
Sorry, I'm not going to do that. But if I can get a volunteer to split the work, then I wouldn't mind.
If anybody wants to be that volunteer, I will offer free training.
My e-mail is subtalkreport@subtalklive.com
These rankings are interesting, but as Dave P. has mentioned there's the possibility that some people will post a lot of "me too" things just to boost their numbers.
Either they'll do the "me to" or they'll write "I forgot".
Or make double entries.
Also, all they say is I agree or say LOL with faces. Double entries are not always deliberate since sometimes it can get messed up.
That way it looks innocuous.
That way it looks innocuous
LOL!!!
Or make double entries over and over and over.
Like this one?
I would have posted "I forgot" even if there were no rankings posted every month. I remembered I wanted to ask a question about something but I forgot what. Posting I forgot made me laugh, even though it's only funny in a lame way.
One post doesn't put you into the top ten list, over 200 do.
>>> One post doesn't put you into the top ten list, over 200 do. <<<
Or 114 mostly useless posts over two days at the end of the month. This "contest" does nothing to improve SubTalk.
Tom
I don't think so.
In the last week of the month, people were complaining about the boringness of Subtalk. In those last two days, the post count was unusually high for more than just me. I found the board interesting again and worthy of my time.
>>> the post count was unusually high for more than just me <<<
The post count may be higher, but there is a lot of thread inflation, with more words and fewer original thoughts.
Tom
"One post doesn't put you into the top ten list, over 200 do"
But do it a few times over and over and you might make the top ten.
I never knew there was a competition for being the one of the top ten posters on SubTalk.
Guess I'll have to start talking more if I want to at least get honorable mention. :)
Do we really care?
This is more "American Pig's gotta be in the top 10 posters on Subtalk", which, of course is really miniscule in the total scheme of things.
But considering how "the total scheme of things" is going so far this century, what ISN'T miniscule? At least this is fun!
I thought I posted a lot - evidently not - I only made 105 postings, so I'm WAY off the list!
In addition, compared to last month, one had to post less (even with the extra day) to make it onto the list. 10th place this month posted only 210/1.74%, last month it was 228/1.88%.
It figures. The rich just keep racking up more and more, and us little people fall further and further behind. Dave, can you start taxing the heavy posters?
Last month I even posted a Lorenz curve to show this inequality.
Originally I thought that being in the top 10 should be a point of shame.
BTW, you were tied with Anon_e_mouse for 35th place.
At first, I felt being in the top 10 meant you had no life and was a point of shame as well but now I don't think so, I think its positive as long as the posts are logical and make sense. Do you still feel that being in the top 10 is a point of shame?
I don't think that being in the top ten is a point of shame. I only made December's top 10 (Before my 115 on 12/30-31, I was in a 3-way tie for 20th) because I discovered that if I didn't post more, then I would drop to 3rd as the most prolific poster of all time by the end of January. Jersey Mike told me I should post more. Except for the "I forgot" post and a few posts about TV, I've stayed mostly relevant and on-topic.
I guess I have to contribute a little more than I'm doing. But it's nice to have some REALLY interesting topics in this site going on, sometimes it can be another city transportation system. Let's hope all of us make waves in 2003 and have a productive year.
Let's hope all of us make waves in 2003
I guess you want to be a Redbird.
No, I'm a Q Brighton line fan. Deadbirds will be nearly extinct this year unless NYCT has to extend the life of some cars due to a shortage in R142's against an IRT fleet, becuase they didn't order enough cars to meet ridership demand.
Your sense of humor needs repair.
Guess I will have to take my humor to the Coney Island GOH shop.
Uh...gee Pig, you must have ALOT of time on your hands! Never knew anyone was 'keeping score'.
I hope you had fun doing this.
I'm just curious, How do you take your subtalk? Do you go for the chronological order, or do you prefer compressed? How long do you let it go for? A day? a week? a month? I would ask about killfiles, but their private and all. Oh, and if this in anyway allows some hacker to gain access to a subtalkers account, then drop the message.
By the way, I've got it set to 'By threads, reversed' I like to see the progression of the discussion before opening the first post, see who has responded to who and so on. On my AOL laptop I've got it set to a mere 3 days, cause it's just so damn slow, but on my parents machine running Comcast@home cable, I've got it set to maybe a week or two, although it has been really slow lately, and I may bring it down, but it's fun to see 1000 some posts, even if I have to go 3/4s down the page to see one post that still is generating new posts despite it's age.
Oh, and my killfile has remains free of names.
Yeah, "thankfully" I have no killfiles neither, never had anything against a poster that was extreme. I prefer the default[chronological order] its easier on me and I'm used to it, usually I keep it do a day since like now you're seeing 600-680 posts as of late which means the live SubTalk is back :-).
I have no one in my killfile.
I use 'By threads, reversed'.
I have it set to show one day, because anything more than that is just old news!
Happy New Years! I'm going to sleep now so that I can get up and fill my cargo van with all my college belongings that I've aquired over the last 4.5 years. Oy, I'm getting ferklepmt! Talk amongst yourselves. I'll give you a topic: If you ride the IRT to work and you live and work in the same borough, shouldn't you really be riding the Intraborough Rapid Transit?
Take Pride,
Brian
Threads, reversed. I had it on 1 month when I was at college, but now I'm home with crappy dialup, so it's set to 3 days now.
Killfile is empty. If someone bothers me that much, I can mentally tell myself not to read their post.
I read a day at a time, in reverse chronological order. For the last couple of months, I have 2 posters in my killfile. I wish I had done that years ago.
Default. {reverse chronological order}. When I open the page for the first time in a few hours, I go down to where the "NEW"s stop. Usually one of my messages is right under that line if I posted. I first open up those to see if I got any kind of response, and then take on the rest. As I move up, if I see the beginning post of a thread that has already been responded to so much, but I want to read through it, I'll book-mark it. Also, once I'm looking at a thread, I'll go to the responses first, b/c I don't like going from the index to a message, and vice versa repeatedly.
Like wise.
avid
Hmm:
Threads, Reversed.
2 Days Display
No one in Killfile
I also use Mozilla as my broswer of choice. Very reliable. :)
Reverse chronological order.
I consider the The Killfile to be useless except as an example of elegant programming by David Pirmann. I'd never consider using it.
It actually can be quite useful for other reasons then it is meant for. If I need to find an old post of mine, I add "Chris R27-R30" to my killfile. If I didnt, There would be all of his posts there when I search for posts by R30.
Otherwise my killfile is empty
I use the default: Chronological order for one day (newest posted message on top). I then go down to where the "new" starts, and begin reading upwards. When I get to a thread I haven't read any posts in yet, I sometimes click "First in thread" and read through the thread. By the time I get to the top of the list, most of the messages are then purple. Them I press refresh and catch the messages that were posted while I was reading, and finally, I'm caught up.
If I haven't been here for a while, I usually change the settings to how many days I wasn't here, and view by thread. If time is limitted, I can then read the things I am most interested in, while skipping the rest.
I would not even consider using the killfile, if I don't want to read something, I just don't click on it.
I have it in chronological order. Nothing in the killfile, though I've been tempted.
Compressed three-day on my teeny wi-fi, default on Netscape at work, no killfile. How can anyone set to one day?
If I've been keeping up, I do chronological, half-day. Once I'm reading a post I work through the entire thread before returning to the index. If I've fallen a few days behind, I switch to threaded view so I can more easily weed out topics. I don't use the killfile, but I don't bother reading most posts by some posters. (Conversely, there are a few posters whose posts I read even in threads I haven't otherwise been reading.)
I'd still prefer an NNTP interface, but that's not in the cards and this is workable.
I start from the bottom of the file and work my way up. I try to read as many topics as I can. I used to be in two Subtalkers' Kill File but fortunately got out. I do not want to be in anyone's kill file, and have no one in my file either.
By Thread, Reversed (one week) works best for me.
Wayne
By Threads Reversed, 2 weeks or one month when I am on a hi-speed connection. 1 week when I am on a lo-speed connection.
I used to keep on Threads, reversed for 1 week, but have most recently been keeping it on 3 day Chronological.
I until recently had it on threads, NOT reversed for two days, but since I've been able to keep up, I have it set to chronologically, one day.
At some point I'll have to go back to threads since I won't have time to look at every message. I rely on the browser history, I scroll down to where the blue links end and the purple ones begin, and even if I don't read a message, I still click it so it appears read.
Default - one day. When I've been away I use the "by date" option until I'm caught up. Loads much faster, even on a high speed connection, and puts less strain on Dave's bandwidth. And I do read all following posts (assuming I'm going to) in a thread, often by the expedient of going back to "first in thread", when I'm catching up.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=516&e=1&u=/ap/20021231/ap_on_re_as/china_maglev_train
I knew it would work! 260 MPH!!!!!!!! KICKA$$!!!!! What a great way to start the new year! Japanese Bullet Train, put 260MPH in your pipe and smoke it! Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!
Take Pride,
Brian
Yay! a small victory for the Maglev! It's nice to see the Transrapid finally get some speed, I think Emsland might have been holding it back, and the Japanese MLX01 was getting all the press. I don't think thats a record, but hey, it's still 260 mph! whats that? Close to double the Acelas usual cruising speed? And more than double an AEM7? Damn.
It's worth noting that the Maglev is of German design, and was built by the Transrapid company in China for Shanghai's airport. There's just one thing that worries me is this quote, 'Premier Zhu, whom Schroeder thanked for personally overseeing the Shanghai construction, said he hoped maglev trains would be "quickly localized" — produced entirely in China." Dear god I hope not, or else it may be like Alweg and Japan back in the 1960s. After building the seattle monorail, several Japanese cities decided that they might like one, alweg came in, sized everything up, designed it, then the Japanese dismissed them and built it 'indigenously'from the Alweg plans. ALWEG was quickly destroyed by this and today the Japanese are still making Alweg copy monorails. Transrapid better watch it's back, one German rail company going bankrupt in asia is bad, two is horrible.
I'm still waiting for the track power to go out, and for a 260 mph maglev to get dumped on the guideway, shredding the body and spilling chinese citizens everywhere. I'm fervently against maglevs that need power to lift them, such as the Feedback controlled magnets in the Transrapid or the Superconductors in the MLX01 system. Theres too much to go wrong, and too little room for error. A much better system is the Induction Maglev, which will use simple copper coils for the track, and halbach array magnets for the lift magnets. The system is foolproof, lose power? the train will slow, coming lower and lower to the track, until it lands on it's wheels and stops.
Oh well, I'm tired, so I'll just leave a link to an article that describes the Halbach Array and Induction Maglev in much greater detail. But I will say that this is it, the big breaktrough that maglev has needed, the one thing that would render it useful.
Yes, I hope the success here will land Maglev's in places such as Las Vegas to LA and Pittsburgh to the airport and eventually Boston to NYC to Philadelphia to Wash DC.
Take Pride,
Brian
Good luck trying to get a new right of way between Boston and DC for maglev (or TGV/Shinkansen, for that matter). You have to cross too many hills, towns, and people's backyards. How many years did it take to get the tiny amount of land needed for the Montclair Connection...?
The Shanghai maglev is impressive though. Not only does it have a high operating speed, they built the thing pretty quickly too (what did it take, two years?).
The budget would seem to be competitive in US markets, assuming the technology is really mature enough. On a per-mile basis, it cost less than AirTrain.
Of course, we're talking about Asian labor, so I expect the cost would rise if it were built here...
You understand I'm referring to labor rates in Asia, not making a comment about ethnicity.
Of course.
Also, I kinda doubt that there are any laws in China requiring massive public works projects to undergo environmental review or public hearings.
Witness themassive damming project going on.
Well, they're starting to review environmental impacts due to:
1) citizen demands (the Communists aren't COMPLETELY undemocratic)
2) the leadership breathes the same air as everyone else, and
3) they recognize they will be competing for talent just like every other nation and most talented people like good environments.
But, they don't let it get mired in the environmental considerations like many Western countries do - they make a determination, make adjustments if necessary and go to work. They also live by "the good of the many outweighs the good of a few" philosophy - hence the building of the Three Gorges Dam to generate electricity.
Just build right over I-95, or parallel interstates, I think the requirements are pretty similar, and the Maglev pylons would fit right down the center over the divider. They'd be a bit low, but lighting could be rigged off the supports for the maglev. Plus it would be a bit demoralizing for some holiday traveler to be stopped waiting for traffic, or even to be zooming along at 70-80 miles an hour, and to be passed by something doing 200mph faster! Might be a very good ad campaign! This could work really well on the New Jersey Turnpike where there are expansive shoulders between the Truck and Car lanes and the maglevs can be separated without falling off the I-95 ROW. How to approach New York, I have no idea. Maybe a dedicated or dual use (Maglev and LRT/PATH or maybe car I suppose) bridge into Lower Manhatten is in order, cable stayed, and dropping the maglev onto the West Side of Manhatten, where it would run up to 9A, the Henry Hudson Expressway. There it would get the heck out of town quickly. I'd envision mulitple stops in Manhatten, maybe one near where it lands in manhatten, around 14th, which meets up with an extended L train, then further north around 34th, where Elia's 34th St LRT carries passengers crosstown to the Subways and Penn Station, and finally one up around 125th st, where the SAS's 125st Branch would terminate.
As for the powering the maglev. For anyone who read that article, it should be remembered that the Halbach Array used in the maglev provides only lift, no thrust. Thrust would come from one of two sources. In the city, and in areas with the infrastructure to support it, the maglev would use linear induction motors (similar to the Airtrain's setup), either mounted under the guideway like the transrapid setup, or mounted in the middle of the guideway, like airtrain has it. Most of the country does not really have the infrastructure to support an LIM equipped Maglev guideway between here and Chicago, or even the west coast, so the Maglev trains would be dual mode, LIM/Gas Turbine. When the LIM track ended, a jet engine would turn on, to propel it, Airliner-style to the next section of LIM equipped track. Right now I'm favoring the General Electric TF34 turbofan, an extremely quiet, 10,000lb thrust jet. All stations would have LIMs in them to keep the running of the jets at maximum thrust to a minimum.
On special all-LIM ROWs, or on Intra- City (commuter) services, the Maglevs wouldn't even have jets, just LIMs, and maybe small battery powered electric motors on the landing wheels, just to crawl into the station in the event of the power to the LIM going out. The deletion of jets from the Maglevs would allow for very very light consists with push pull configurations possible. Because the jet powered maglevs would burn fuel, and need to carry and accelerate that fuel, they would be inheirently less efficnent than the LIM lines, and so there would be a definite advantage to LIM-ize lines that were previously Jet Maglev lines.
Just build right over I-95, or parallel interstates, I think the requirements are pretty similar
I wouldn't know how to perform actual measurements, but my general impression is that the Interstates in the Northeast are curvier and hillier than even the existing NEC. I guess this isn't so obvious on the NJ Turnpike, which I remember as being pretty wide, flat, and straight, but try driving any of the highways in New England (including I-95 north of NYC, I-84, and I-91)-- I don't think the grades and alignments would cut it.
The possible Baltimore-Washington maglev project was a total boondoggle for serveral reasons. Not sure of the Pittsburgh project progress/lack of.
1. No formal proposals for downtown to downtown in Baltimore/DC. Only the non-city routes were ever presented.
2. No support from the Maryland Senators, who took a general "hands off" attitude.
3. Just the mention of strong magnetic fields brought the NIMBYs out by the LRV load. All of the proposed routes went through Linthicum, where 50% of the pupulation is still unhappy with the light rail line. This was just one more nail in the coffin.
It's ridiculously expensive already, so why not build it in the Atlantic Ocean?
>>> I knew it would work! 260 MPH!!!!!!!! <<<
Before anyone rushes out to buy stock in a maglev company, it should be noted that this was one run. If, after a year it is running reliably without excessive maintenance or safety problems, it is time to start thinking about longer applications. If anyone did the math, this line is 19 miles long and the time of the run is 14 minutes for an average speed of 81.43 mph. That in itself is not a great advance.
Tom
Ahh, finally someone who isn't dazzled by the headlines!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Agreed.
Amtrak's Metroliner is a proven service at 125 mph on straightaways, but even with 100% on-time performance, perfectly clean bathrooms and leather seats the service would be a waste if you could only travel between, for example, Philly and Trenton.
Which cars would you count as Redbirds? Strictly speaking, they would only be the cars delivered with the name (R28 and above, no WF R33/36) but even the "official" name was extended further.
I would count the cookie-cutter Reggie Welch designs skinned with LAHT (i.e., painted) as follows: R16,17,21,22,26,27,28,30,33,36. No stainless. No pre-R16 since those were still attempts at ornamented design.
Are BMT "recbirds" true redbirds or only IRT?
Which would you include? Why?
I just can't think of any non-IRT cars as being "true" redbirds.
The "Redbirds" were any cars painted in the David Gunn "Silverfox" paint scheme that the remaining "Redbirds" wear today.
IRT
R-17 (a few cars, including 6688, now at Branford)
R-26
R-28
R-29
R-33
R-36
BMT/IND
R-27 (some cars)
R-30 (all GE cars, including the R-30As, and some Westinghouse cars)
(I'm not counting the R-16 in back of PS 248 -- it never ran in service in those colors)
David
the Greenbirds were
R-10 110 cars
R-17 6677
R-21 7075
R-33 a few cars(all MLs)
I thought some other models of ML IRT cars were Greenbirds as well before they became Redbirds when they didn't like the green scheme on the IRT cars.
The "Redbirds" are the R-26/28/29/33/33WF/36WF/36ML IRT cars.
There were "B" division "Redbirds" and they were the R-27/30s. They are sometimes referred to as "Redbirds" because they used the same color scheme as the IRT "Redbirds". Sometimes people might refer to the "Redbirds" as the IRT cars that were originally painted fire-engine red. Those were the R-29/33/36ML cars.
#3 West End Jeff
Everything except the lone R16 and some R17's are Redbirds; R17's are actually maroon and 10 of them were painted for a fan trip and there were a few others painted to get it in a non-graffiti standard.
IRT Redbirds are the true Redbirds without a doubt since the R36 had them back in 1982, it caught on and that's what we call them now.
IRT: R26/28,29,33,33WF,36,36WF, the true Redbirds
IND/BMT: R30/30A, the B division Redbirds, they are Redbirds too since they were painted red. Some R27's were painted in the red scheme as well but they weren't GOH'ed and it was done just to get the cars graffiti free.
Hey, imagine they kept the dark green paint scheme as the rebuilt color scheme, they would of been "Greenbirds".
Actually, until they began washing cars regularly (ironically at about the same time graffiti started in big time) they were dirty birds. You could tell how recently a new car was delivered by how much of the original color you could see.
No, no I'm not talking about the olive drab color mixed with grime, I'm talking about the green scheme of the 1980's on the mainline cars [R26/28,29,33,36] before it was dropped for the red scheme aka the birth of the Redbirds on the mainline IRT.
where did the R32s and R38s that replaced the R30s on the A,C,and H come from?
The R-32s came from Budd and the R-38s came from St. Louis Car :-)
Actually, the R-38s were already on the A and the R-32s came from Coney Island and/or Jamaica.
David
R38's were exclusively on the A since the GOH and the R32's came from CI and/or Jamaica when the R30's were replaced in 1993, which led to the car shortage we STILL have to this day but ridership changed dramatically so this led to the scrapping of the cars.
I was reading a Notice on the C/R assignments sheets and the A Div. Crew office is asking C/R's to Volunteer to transfer over to the B Div. Also says those C/R's who have a desire to transfer over should submit a G2 Immediately.
I wonder should I go put my name back on the list!
wayne
Come on over, We'll be glad to have you here. I think you will like it. Remember, you could always go back.
All this talk about the Woodhaven stations in the other thread made me look through some of my slides.
Well for those interested, here are some photos of the LIRR Woodhaven Station from the LIRR Rockaway Branch for those who don't know what it looks like. It's hard to believe that there were two LIRR stations right here and now there isn't even one.
I took these back in September of 1993. I found the station totally by accident that day. I was railfanning the LIRR Flatbush Branch one day by car (photos of the stations, some train pictures, photos at Dunton Tower), and totally by accident I was driving down Atlantic Avenue, and stumbled across it. Of course my curiousity took me into the station. It was the only time I was ever there.
Sorry they are a bit dark (the slides aren't), but I'm having a terrible time getting my scanner to scan slides properly, something is set wrong, and I don't know how to change it. Oh well.
Nice pics! Do you have any more of the line?
http://www.oldnyc.com/rockaway/contents/rockaway.html, for the tour done by oldnyc.com
Only a few more that I know of. Only took photos of that line twice. The day I described above, and one other time when I walked from Winfield to where the line crossed the Montauk Branch in Glendale. I'll have to look for those.
If the first car really is a "singles car" and considering that this is where you're most likely to find railfans, many of whom are "eligible," I think the ladies should be aware of good conversation starters. Every young woman knows who to "accidentally" brush into someone and look up with bright pretty eyes, but then what do you say to a railfan? Suggestions:
"I can't find anyone to explain the differences between an R68 and an R68a. Can you help me?"
"I just love the way you immitate the compressor on a 2600 series BMT Standard."
"I've been going out with a 42nd St. Shuttle guy, but he has a one-track mind."
"Is that a brake handle in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?"
LOL!!!
I can tell you're quite debonaire... 8-)
What do you tell the lady at the end of the date?
What do you tell the lady at the end of the date?
OK, what? :)
"I just love it when you grab my straphanger."
I'd go with what a switchman inadvertently said to Nancy at Utica and then realized what passed his lips ... "Would you like to hold my handle?" :)
Was that what happened after he offered to show her his triple valve?
;-)
I think *I* would have slapped him with the business end of that red-tipped device. :)
I fear we are about to descend the slippery slope of that angled pipe thingy soon.
Yes, I expect that the descent will lead to an "E-Dogg" incident. ;)
No, we are NOT going to tear down that angle thingy. Unless of course the valve needs cleaning. :)
I'm glad I'm signing off for the night...
:0)
So this is how a horny railbuff's mating calls sound...
I think it's more like Bob & Ray's concept;
HULLA hulla HULLA hulla HULLA hulla HUL-LA-LO!
Step in and stand clear of the moving drawers:)
"Step in and stand clear of the moving drawers"
Actually, that has a not-too-funny counterpart.
To help Los Angeles MTA control a proliferation of pickpockets, LAPD created a decoy squad similar to New York's (but much smaller) to ride buses and watch for them. But last year, the squad made over 70 arrests for sexual assault. A typical case: On a crowded bus, a perpetrator would stand close to a seated woman, and would brush his crotch up against her repeatedly, taking advantage of the bus' swaying motion to make it look like incidental contact. The decoy officer, seated near the rearof the bus, dressed in a basketball tank-top, baggy jeans and a baseball cap worn backward, whipped out his badge, and took the guy off the bus to wait for a patrol car to transport him to central booking..
To help Los Angeles MTA control a proliferation of pickpockets, LAPD created a decoy squad similar to New York's (but much smaller) to ride buses and watch for them. But last year, the squad made over 70 arrests for sexual assault. A typical case: On a crowded bus, a perpetrator would stand close to a seated woman, and would brush his crotch up against her repeatedly, taking advantage of the bus' swaying motion to make it look like incidental contact. The decoy officer, seated near the rearof the bus, dressed in a basketball tank-top, baggy jeans and a baseball cap worn backward, whipped out his badge, and took the guy off the bus to wait for a patrol car to transport him to central booking.
What if it was just incidental contact? It might be difficult for an undercover officer to tell for sure, especially if it had been sitting some distance away.
Initially, the officer didn't know.
The officer noted that the suspect made no attempt to make more room for himself even as the # of passengers varied; he brushed into her repeatedly over several minutes, with the officer eventually deciding that his movements seemed exaggerated even factoring in the bus driver's maneuvers. And contact was always directly with the center of his pants.
I got on to a crowded streetcar once and, feeling yself lose balance, reached out for a metal seat-back grip. My hand brushed against a woman's breast (she was very well-endowed). I apologized and struggled to shift my position so her bosom was no longer directly in my way. The guy in my example made no such effort.
.....and struggled to shift my position so her bosom was no longer directly in my way
....the things you learn on SubTalk......
I got on to a crowded streetcar once and, feeling myself lose balance, reached out for a metal seat-back grip. My hand brushed against a woman's breast (she was very well-endowed).
Heh. It's happened to me on crowded subways. A useful way to tell if they're real ...
I don't know about you, Peter...
Hey, there was a Seinfeld episode that involved a somewhat analagous "reality" test.
Somewhat remarkable for a show that was about "nothing", according to its creator and primary star.
The crime you are describing here in the NYS Penal Law is called Jostling. (I don't know what it is in Calif.)
Unfortunately about 20 years ago a few transit cops (before the merge with the NYPD) were prosecuted for making a bunch of jostling arrests on the subway that both internal affairs and the DA's office arbitrarily deemed were phoney arrests just to make overtime. The DA's stated the cops convinced female complainants that the jostling was deliberate and urged them to press charges which many did. Some of those cops were found guilty of official misconduct and fired.
There's no excuse for that kind of police abuse.
On the other hand, there's no reason to tolerate a woman (or a man) being subjected to that kind of "jostling."
"What's your lineup?"
"Want to see a pneumatic trip stop?"
Good ones, Mike...
(especially for dumb blondes...)
Uh, Paul. You forgot the "My subway line or yours?" line. :)
>>>I think the ladies should be aware of good conversation starters. <<<
Ladies...well, there's Peggy and there's subway grrrrrrrrrrl, and there's...there's...well, there's....
www.forgotten-ny.com
and V train B47 bus!
Which reminds me, delving into my archives of antiquated slang expressions, "buss" (two "s", but pronounced the same) meant "to kiss" or "a kiss."
So who says mass transit is unromantic? :)
LOL!
"So...do you live around here often?"
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
From historical accounts and my own (covert) observations, the LIRR Rockaway ROW appears to need only tree clearing, basic leveling, the usual structural work, and signalling/trackage to make this a viable operation again. I STILL don't understand why they spent all those $$$ for the PA to build AirTrain--a completely new system--when they could have rehabbed the LIRR ROW all the way to 63 Drive, added tracks from How Beach to the terminals...it makes me wonder what they were thinking! Air Train only serves a select clientele; a subway into JFK would have served EVERYBODY...even those "shafted woodhaven riders"...
From historical accounts and my own (covert) observations, the LIRR Rockaway ROW appears to need only tree clearing, basic leveling, the usual structural work, and signalling/trackage to make this a viable operation again. I STILL don't understand why they spent all those $$$ for the PA to build AirTrain--a completely new system--when they could have rehabbed the LIRR ROW all the way to 63 Drive, added tracks from How Beach to the terminals...it makes me wonder what they were thinking!
Politics. Since it is a dedicated, internalized system, PA was able to build it from airport to peripheral locations with departure tax funds. And even so they had to fight to do it.
Air Train only serves a select clientele; a subway into JFK would have served EVERYBODY...even those "shafted woodhaven riders"...
But the right-of-way has effective NIMBY opposition.
Yeah, I know, everybody wants electricity but nobody wants the power station on their block. I understand that. But look at this. Just 200 FEET separate end-of-track on the AirTrain at How Beach from the A Train. How difficult would it have been to either bring AirTrain into the IND as a joint operation? In Chicago the El was jointly operated by multiple carriers for over 50 years. How hard, conversely, to bring the IND into JFK? A true one-seat ride from Manhattan with 2 stops in Brooklyn would have taken (historical study figures, MTA AR of 1973)...TWENTY-SEVEN MINUTES!
Just 200 FEET separate end-of-track on the AirTrain at How Beach from the A Train. How difficult would it have been to either bring AirTrain into the IND as a joint operation? In Chicago the El was jointly operated by multiple carriers for over 50 years. How hard, conversely, to bring the IND into JFK?
Just because something worked in Chicago doesn't mean that it'll work in New York. There is no Windy City equivalent of Typical New York Incompetence.
Chicago has its own problems with incompetence.
As a minor example, how long did it take them to get their act together to rebuild the Douglas branch (the one where trains would derail and fall off the elevated bridge if they went over 15 mph)? That bridge could have been featured in the movie "Cassandra Crossing."
Still, I admire the way they got the Midway Airport line built.And O'Hare has decent, if slow, subway service (and CTA added police dogs to patrol that line after complaints about gangs and rowdiness).
It should be pointed out that, to my knowledge, no train cars have ever fallen off the Douglas structures.
I also think no trains have fallen off any El structure since 1977's Loop accident that killed 11 people and injured scores more.
I've never seen on-duty police dogs on the O'Hare branch. There is a company in Chicago that trains security dogs, and these muzzled German Shepherds can be seen on various El lines throughout the city as part of their noise and traffic training.
<< There is no Windy City equivalent of Typical New York Incompetence. >>
Yeah, there is. The billion dollar south side Green line rehab with the Red Line so close was an exercise is preservationism, but totally unnecessary. Without it, they could have started on the Douglas rehab sooner, and the Ravenswood would have had 8-car trains by now.
I've looked through many of these responses and I don't see the heart of the problem mentioned - FINANCE, and limitations from the source of the PA's money.
The PA's Airtrain is paid by air traveler fees and the FAA requirement is that this money be used for airport transport ONLY. That is why the PA's past ideas were stop-less routes between the airports and Manhattan. What the PA builds can only connect to-and-from airports and not in between, so subway-less areas of Queens along the Van Wyck were out of luck.
As expensive as the Airtrain is, it is a far better deal than the monorail at Newark Airport - fabulously over budget, and saddled with a high-maintenance, one-of-a-kind system. At least JFK's Light rail is an "off-the-shelf" system that will be cheaper in the long run, and has a (distant) possiblility of being integrated into other NYC systems perhaps when the PA's airport leases expire in 2015.
Finally, the PA and MTA are fiefdoms that do not work well together. What other place still has a separate subway system (PATH)? Should have been unified long ago, with the other 3 (BMT, IRT & IND) - but that's a different thread....
I have often wondered why the various transport "fiefdoms" don't get along. Didn't the secondary effects of 9/11 teach transit operators how interdependent their individual systems are? If there is ever to be a true one-seat ride to JFK from Manhattan, there needs to be interagency cooperation first. My employers learned about interagency cooperation the HARD way on 9/11...
Do NYC Republicans get along with NYC Democrats?
Do NYC Plutocrats get along with NYC Working Folk?
So why should New York's Democrats, Republicans, Plutocrats and Working Folk get along with New Jersy's Democrats, Republicans, Plutocrats etc. etc. etc.
Humankind are teritorial beasties, and that is a fack of life. Get over it.
: ) Elias
Yes it's true that we ARE territorial beasties, but I can give you a GOOD example of why we should play nice in the sandbox. Just imagine if me (or any of the 2700 other EMT's and Paramedics who serve our city) arrived to pick you up as a patient, but were sidetracked along the way by interagency disputes. While you lay (God Forbid) dying, the powers that be argue over things like patient access (similar to trackage rights), who transports the patient (whose train runs where) and what hospital the patient--hypothetically YOU!--goes to (where the train terminates).
See the parallels? I think the analogy illustrates why interagency cooperation is so crucial. BTW: There are over THIRTY separate EMS agencies in NYC's 911 system, and we handle over a MILLION calls a year. Now if this can be done cooperatively, why not transit?
You're right.
If I recall correctly, a few years ago, did not a man die in the East River in a sunken car while a Fire Department diver and an NYPD diver got into a fistfight over who was going to fish him out? The Fire Dept. and Police Dept boat got to the scene at the same time.
(I'm not saying he would have made it even if cooperation had been perfect)
You are right of course, and I was being a little sarcastic, for they *should* get along, and they *should* get things done for the improvement of all involved. On the otherhand, you cannot really be dismayed or shocked if they cant.
I want a subway on Second Avenue, and this guy doesn;t want a subway on second avenue. And since we are both rich and can buy all of the politicians we want...
Oh well... here in our city we average about 30 ambulance calls a year. And our teritory covers just under 700 square miles. Not counting the interstate and city streets, there are only two paved roads in our teritiory. You want that ambulance *when*?
Elias
You want that ambulance *when*?
Before they open the Second Avenue Subway to the public. :-)
We (New Jersians) don't like to deal with all your New York folk because all that damned fasting we have to go through to purify ourselves of your (New Yorkians) taint.
Your post is correct.
Note that MTA had the right to build onto a ROW it owned from Howard Beach into the airport - and chose not to do so. The reasons have already been discussed here. The PA did not stop MTA from doing so; it was MTA's decision.
Three basic misconceptions in your posts:
1) You're badly underestimating the effort it would take to reactivate the Rockaway branch. In addition to the trees and the encroachments that must be dealt with, there is the issue of the ROW being much closer to people's homes than on other lines, and certainly much closer than the AirTrain ROW is to housing.
"basic leveling, the usual structural work, and signalling/trackage"
In other words, nothing to it, right? WRONG.
The LIRR's East Side Access project is underway. It will only cost a couple of hundred million or so for the tunnel boring machine and the ditch diggers create the ROW. The rest of the cost, estimated at $4 billion, is all the rest of the stuff you glossed over so lightly. And that's not including all the lawsuits that the Rockaway line would face (and that, thankfully, East Side Access will mostly be spared). Thus, the Rockaway LIRR's cost might have exceeded AirTrain's capital cost.
2) The Rockaway branch could not be run to Manhattan without East Side Access - there simply isn't room in the Penn tubes for another line. As it is, express trains from Port Washington and Huntington, for example, sometimes come to a halt in front of stop signals, waiting to cross the East River. When the 63rd Street tunnel is in operation, then we'll have a new ballgame.
2) Politics and money - Paul Matus did a pretty good job explaining this - at the most basic level, if MTA doesn't want to do something, and doesn't have a capital plan allotment with which to do it - it isn't going to happen. "Fuggedaboudid."
"I STILL don't understand why they spent all those $$$ for the PA to build AirTrain--a completely new system"
They saved YOU and a lot of other people a lot of money, actually. The LIRR would have needed a lot of taxpayer money to complete the Rockaway Line. AirTrain cost the MTA capital plan a grand total of $350 million, which went to pay to renovate Howard Beach IND and to rebuild Jamaica Station (which would have had to happen anyway). And the Port Authority threw in another $100 million to Jamaica's rebuild.
3) You're misjudging AirTrain and its value because you're too fixated on the LIRR to understand the bigger picture and fully evaluate the alternmatives.
The goal is to get passengers to the airport - by the best available means; it is NOT to use the LIRR to get them there no matter what the difficulties are.
The Van Wyck Expressway is the single best ROW in the city to get people to Kennedy. Elevated trains set far from people's homes; noiseproofing is relatively simple, and the ROW spills right into the airport terminal area. And to top it off, there was very little NIMBY to speak of. A small group of people (literally two dozen people out of 600,000 who live in the southeast Queens area) objected to AirTrain, and the only other visible opponent was an expensive airline-paid lobbyist.
In contrast, the Rockaway Line's neighbors would have been kicking and screaming their way to every congressman, Assemblyman and Senator in sight. Sheldon Silver would have nixed it; the Governor would have rejected it; Mayor Guiliani would have said "No." And all of them would have had the letters in their hands to prove it.
Politics can sometimes seem like a dirty word. But it's a part of democracy.
The Port Authority designed a train which could get around the terminals easily, and was luggage and ADA-friendly. The stations are fully ADA and luggage friendly, and baggage handling is now being planned.
"Air Train only serves a select clientele;"
That clientele includes everyone who want to go to the airport: employees (30,000 of them), flight crews and passengers. And connecting to both Howard Beach and Jamaica Station ensures that a traveler arriving at JFK can literally reach any destination he/she wants easily and in comfort, using LIRR (which is mostly ADA and luggage compliant) and the subway (which has a ways to go in that department; the E and F train's stations are now getting ADA improvements)
Go back to Subtalk's archives and look over the posts there. Also, write a polite letter to MTA about the Rockaway Line. You will get an informative answer back.
Amen! My thoughts exactly!
Some additional points:
(1) AirTrain also connects with about a dozen bus lines at Jamaica, so the Queens traveler has multiple options - LIRR, subway, and bus.
(2) If there were a dedicated LIRR service to JFK from Penn, anyone desiring to use this service would have to get to Penn first and then transfer, so there's really no one-seat ride to JFK. The AirTrain makes Jamaica the transfer point for everyone and effectively brings JFK to Jamaica Station. Customers will have the ability to check their luggage at Jamaica, from where it will sent directly to the airplane.
(3) The reactivation of the old Rockaway Branch r.o.w. south of White Pot requires massive rebuildings of overgrade bridges - structures which have been left standing without much maintenance for the last forty years. I don't even want to think of the billions required for new bridges alone.
Since they (NIMBYs) have opposition to the ROW, they should contine the subway at 66th ave on the R and G and have it stay subway until it passes the communities opposing the line, then have it emerge to meet the A train.. That would be a pretty nice costly alternative to use the ROW if not the LIRR...
If money were available to create a new underground LIRR line under the current abandoned ROW, I'm sure there would be interest.
But: 1) It would compete for priority with other projects (Second Av Subway, 7 extension to Javits, which isn'yt fully funded yet, and other projects, like a GCT to Penn commuter tunnel or more electrification in outer LIRR lines
2) You still couldn't run any trains until ESA was open for business
(but that's OK, because the tunnel and stationswouldn't be ready before 2010 anyway...)
There would still be issues with ROW encroachment, related to station placement, utility relocation, and house foundations being too close to where the tunnel would be dug).
Yes, don't forget about the 200,000 trees (mulch, anyone?) and the fact that you would have to tunnel beneath that 21-story apartment block at Union Turnpike (build a station there!). Oh, yes - East Side access. Other than that, it's a very good idea and I hope it's given some consideration.
wayne
I have walked around Union Turnpike near the ROW. The 21-story apartment building per se does not sit atop the ROW, although the parking lot does. The ROW belongs to the city.
Except during 2 peak hours in one direction, the LIRR operates below capacity to Penn Station. For those two hours, run out of Hunterspoint Avenue and catch it at Woodside. The projected ridership for Airtrain is so low (5000 Airport employess, 2000 travelers per day), it was not worth the cost. The reinforced concrete bridges are mostly in fairly good shape. There is only 1 wooden trestle that is out. Chopping down 200,000 trees doesn't cost billions, nor does soundproofing the windows on all the houses along the tracks.
Two points:
Even middays and weekends Penn Station is a tight operating environment. Besides LIRR, NJT and Amtrak trains are constantly running in and out...and there are many equipment moves to/from Sunnyside that must share track space with LIRR. Adding airport trains to the mix just makes a very difficult situation even more difficult.
Unless you have done detailed engineering inspections of the Rockaway line bridge structures, there is no way to tell if the structures are in good enough condition to carry the weight of today's heavier trains. Remember that when the line was built the LIRR used the old MP54 coaches, lighter than today's M-series equipment. My guess is that many of the bridges would need to be extensively rehabbed or in many cases replaced due to lack of use and maintenance since 1962.
Two trains an hour more they can handle. They only run 7 or 8 an hour now. NJT is not a big user of the East River tunnels off-peak in any case relaying mostly on the stub tracks 1-4.
MP54's were 67 tons, T54's were 45 tons, M-1's are 48 tons. M-3's are 56 tons.
When I look at the bridges over Jamaica or Atlantic Avenue, I don't see any crumbling concrete. They haven't gotton any maintenace in 40 years, but not any use use either. Look at the DL&W viaducts on the Cut-Off, not used in 20 years. Even NJ-DOT says they need only a minor rehab with some surface cracking. Everything the Lackawanna built was designed to last 700 years. The PRR didn't build junk either.
"When I look at the bridges over Jamaica or Atlantic Avenue, I don't see any crumbling concrete. They haven't gotton any maintenace in 40 years, but not any use use either. Look at the DL&W viaducts on the Cut-Off, not used in 20 years. Even NJ-DOT says they need only a minor rehab with some surface cracking. Everything the Lackawanna built was designed to last 700 years. The PRR didn't build junk either. "
An opinion offered without relevant professional expertise, without a license (unless you do have a PE license? and in what field?) and without malpractice insurance isn't worth the electrons it's generated with. You're entitled to it, and this is Subtalk, but the MTA came to the opposite conclusion and I'll believe them before I believe you.
"I have walked around Union Turnpike near the ROW. The 21-story apartment building per se does not sit atop the ROW, although the parking lot does. The ROW belongs to the city. "
That only covers a small part of your ROW problem.
"Except during 2 peak hours in one direction, the LIRR operates below capacity to Penn Station."
False and absurd statement. The LIRR is virtually never below capacity in the Penn tubes. Remember also that it has to share with Amtrak and even with NJ Transit for moves into the yard.
"The projected ridership for Airtrain is so low (5000 Airport employess, 2000 travelers per day), it was not worth the cost."
Those are certainly not accurate projections. Where did you get themfrom, and under what context were they offered?
"The reinforced concrete bridges are mostly in fairly good shape. There is only 1 wooden trestle that is out. "
Oh boy, I wouldn't want to be an engineer in your shoes. You'd lose so many lawsuits the state would have to yank your PE license. You'd be lucky if anybody let you near a drafting table ever again.
"Chopping down 200,000 trees doesn't cost billions, nor does soundproofing the windows on all the houses along the tracks. "
That argument is so silly I wouldn't know where to begin with it. Suffice to say I'm glad the MTA and the PA paid enough attention to this to realize the problems.
On a per mile basis ($250 million per mile) AirTrain was a BARGAIN.
On a per mile basis ($250 million per mile) AirTrain was a BARGAIN.
I can think of cheaper projects...
Aynho Junction - Bicester North part of Project Evergreen, 9½ miles of new track, new signalling, cost £48.3 million ($77.3 million), cost per mile therefore £5.1 million ($8.1 million).
Airtrain therefore is costing over thirty times what Project Evergreen is costing. Even though it's an El, as opposed to track on the ground, the price differential makes me doubt that it is a bargain.
What makes this more remarkable is that Aynho - Bicester was done to a very tight schedule (as the other route to Birmingham, the West Coast Main Line, was due to be closed at weekends immediately after this project was completed) and was actually finished five days early.
It'snice that in England you can do cheaper projects. However, you're comparing an apple to an orange. By England standards, perhaps, AirTrain is expensive. By northeast USA standards, it is very inexpensive.
Not really. That figure is in line with the costs for the rail re-habilitation of the Atlantic City Line. From my books it cost no more than about 250 million dollars in 1989 for 50-60 miles of brand new track and signaling. NJT also recently re-habilitated the track and signaling between Netcog and Hackettstown, about 7-10 miles, and that didn't cost any great deal of money.
"From my books it cost no more than about 250 million dollars in 1989 for 50-60 miles of brand new track and signaling. NJT also recently re-habilitated the track and signaling between Netcog and Hackettstown, about 7-10 miles, and that didn't cost any great deal of money."
For commuter rail at-grade trackage with no pile driving, no elevated guideway etc.? And in 1989, remember, not 2000. But still, you make a good point.
Well we are talking about RoW rehabilitation, not new construction. Granted, the AC line had retained its original track and most of the work was running a tie/rail replacement machine down the line and then adding in the passing sidings.
The Rockaway line is 2 track, but it is also much shorter.
"Well we are talking about RoW rehabilitation, not new construction."
That was quite true (fortunately) for the Atlantic City line (there were some minor NIMBY problems though - blech! But they were overcome. It was also true for the Old Colony Plymouth line of MBTA commuter rail in Boston, which initially had major NIMBY issues. But they were overcome also.
The abandoned Rockaway Line is shorter - but this is no rehab project. This is practically asking for a new line. And with NIMBY problems that would make the Old Colony fight look like a kindergarten picnic by comparison.
$250 million a mile for ridership projected at 70 % of the Franklin shuttle - ridiculous.
< "Except during 2 peak hours in one direction, the LIRR operates below capacity to Penn Station."
False and absurd statement. The LIRR is virtually never below capacity in the Penn tubes. Remember also that it has to share with Amtrak and even with NJ Transit for moves into the yard. >
If they can run 30 trains per hour in the rush, plus Hunterspoint moves, plus Amtrak, plus NJT moves, 10 can be handled in the non-rush. Nothing obsurd about that. What you say is a civil-servant cop-out.
<"The projected ridership for Airtrain is so low (5000 Airport employess, 2000 travelers per day), it was not worth the cost."
Those are certainly not accurate projections. Where did you get themfrom, and under what context were they offered? >
Those are the Port Authority's projections.
<"The reinforced concrete bridges are mostly in fairly good shape. There is only 1 wooden trestle that is out. "
Oh boy, I wouldn't want to be an engineer in your shoes. You'd lose so many lawsuits the state would have to yank your PE license. You'd be lucky if anybody let you near a drafting table ever again. >
If the situation were as bad as that, they'd have been removed years ago from fear of collapse. They can even withstand the constant weight of all those trees on all those overpasses.
<"Chopping down 200,000 trees doesn't cost billions, nor does soundproofing the windows on all the houses along the tracks. "
That argument is so silly I wouldn't know where to begin with it. Suffice to say I'm glad the MTA and the PA paid enough attention to this to realize the problems.>
I don't care what the Parking Authority concluded. The came up with a proprietary system to transport their own emplyees and not jeopardize their parking revenues. Everything else followed from that. The MTA has no interest in the matter. Ditto with Newark Airport monorail instead of a PATH extension.
"If they can run 30 trains per hour in the rush, plus Hunterspoint moves, plus Amtrak, plus NJT moves, 10 can be handled in the non-rush. Nothing obsurd about that."
For a couple of hours a day, that might be true. And after midnight.
"What you say is a civil-servant cop-out."
If you want to deny credibility to somebody else, make sure your own arguments actually hold water. They don't.
"If the situation were as bad as that, they'd have been removed years ago from fear of collapse. They can even withstand the constant weight of all those trees on all those overpasses."
That statement all by itself shows you have little or no practical knowledge of civil engineering. Like I said before, I give maximal credence when I see a PE license and malpractice insurance to back it up. You have neither.
"The MTA has no interest in the matter."
Correct! That's reality. Get over it.
"Ditto with Newark Airport monorail instead of a PATH extension."
False statement. The two are not exclusive. The PATH extension is being studied by the PA. There is a realistic chance it will happen ultimately, if enough people keep asking for it. PATH trains will take passengers to the EWR rail stations; hopefully PATH will also build a couple more stations along the way between EWR (which is actually in Elizabeth, if I am not mistaken) and Newark.
If you want this to happen, stop whining on Subtalk about it, get off your butt (after clearing a reality check!), and invest in some paper and ink. Address your letter of encouragement regarding a PATH extension to Michael DePallo, PATH Director, One PATH Plaza, Jersey City NJ (don't remember the zip code).
I think a PATH extension is a great idea, and I'd like to see it happen. I think it can. You can help make it happen.
<"If they can run 30 trains per hour in the rush, plus Hunterspoint moves, plus Amtrak, plus NJT moves, 10 can be handled in the non-rush. Nothing obsurd about that."
For a couple of hours a day, that might be true. And after midnight.>
Your point was the tunnels and Harold area are so incredibly busy off-peak, they can't possible handle another two trains an hour.
That is ridiculous, especially after midnight.
"What you say is a civil-servant cop-out."
Means no-can-do philosphy.
<"If the situation were as bad as that, they'd have been removed years ago from fear of collapse. They can even withstand the constant weight of all those trees on all those overpasses."
That statement all by itself shows you have little or no practical knowledge of civil engineering. Like I said before, I give maximal credence when I see a PE license and malpractice insurance to back it up. You have neither. >
The statement also shows the concrete structures are train-worthy as they are with only minor viaduct rehab needed such as been done to Valley Stream, Lynbrook, Rockville Centre, or the Whitepot tunnel would have caved in years ago from 400 trains a day at 80MPH roaring over them.
As for the PE comments, the Par,king Authority would do well to hire one some day. The NWK monorail had to be shut down from corrosion after a year of service. We'll see how long the Van Wyck El lasts before it cracks.
Or an 18-wheeler slams into one of the supports.
Or an 18-wheeler slams into one of the supports.
We can make it happen with the LIRR ROW rehab, too. This is New York, the land where nothing is impossible. (Don't believe it? Read the "Guinness Book of Superlatives" about NYC someday.) I have clearly struck a chord (a nerve?) with many of you by just raising the subject. I'm certain a lot of non-railfans who vote, too, just like us, would weigh in on this. I'm writing to Mr. Kalikow tonight, and I intend to present my historical case as well as many of the fine observations everybody made here on Sub Talk.
Maybe someday my sons will be able to get on the IND in Inwood Park or Elmhurst and get off at the IAB in JFK...having never changed trains. How about it, gang?
This is New York, the land where nothing is impossible.
Please delete the stray "im."
LOL!!!!!
"Maybe someday my sons will be able to get on the IND in Inwood Park or Elmhurst and get off at the IAB in JFK...having never changed trains. How about it, gang? "
Well, since I see absolutely nothing wrong with riding AirTrain (and having seen and used arrangements in Washington, Atlanta, Philadelphia and Boston), I would say there are far better uses for our hard-earned money than simply funding what is no more than a railbuff's obsession about a particular type of train going to the airport.
Now, if you told me you'd like to invest in additional subway services to neighborhoods which have never seen a train, I say go for it. As far as changing trains goes, nobody really cares about that. It's a red herring. Just make sure any needed changes are ADA and luggage friendly.
Want to fight for a do-able subway airport project? MTA does want to build a subway to La Guardia (and has money already in the budget, set aside for it), and the PA is receptive to extending PATH to EWR Rail. Whip out your pens and start a campaign there.
Would a LGA Subway be an extension of the Astoria "N" Line? I could go for that, or even an out-and-back from QB.
On hold since Astoria went ballistic at a '99 hearing. (Anyone heard anything lately?)
I'll say it AGAIN: Why does everybody want electricity but no one wants a power station on their block?
I've figured they'd wait until the JFK system was running, then jam the LGA extension down Astoria's throat.
"eminent domain"? (LOL)
I believe the only obstacles are political. As a state agency, I believe MTA has all the tools it needs to do it, but just has to withstand some local heat. And the Guv is past his election now.
I'll say it AGAIN: Why does everybody want electricity but no one wants a power station on their block?
1) Because they are selfish,
2) Because they can put it on *your* block.
Elias
["I'll say it AGAIN: Why does everybody want electricity but no one wants a power station on their block?"]
Could it possibly be that your property values might go down? I mean, saving for years for a house, then getting a discount for being next to the tracks (a double bonus for railfans), but then having your whole investment go down the drain by having an UGLY substation next door. And to make matters worse, if you have kids you have the third rail to worry about. Because as any parent knows, no matter how much you tell a kid not to do something, like cross the tracks, they're gonna do it anyway.
I've always thought that when a public project is built somewhere, they shouldn't just buy off the property they need to build it, but also pay for the neighbors' loss in property value.
And until then, not only will there be NIMBY's, but many of them will be RIGHT.
As a homeowner myself, I can understand why some people might worry about resale value if a ROW was operating behind their house. (You're right, I and my kids would think it COOL to have the subway or LIRR abutting our backyard-but we're off our medication anyway.) However, public works projects are intended to benefit ALL the public, not just the NIMBYs, and these projects have to go somewhere.
It's been my experience that sometimes you can't win for trying. In 1980, when the LIRR wanted to complete its grade separation program on the Babylon line in Massapequa Park, here's what happened: Citing safety concerns at the Unqua Road grade crossing, the LIRR notified everybody about its upcoming grade sep plans. The community went ballistic, saying a concrete elevated structure running through the heart of town would be an eyesore. Not one word about their kids, who wouldn't have to negotiate the dangerous grade crossing anymore. The residents wanted their "picturesque" wodden grade-level station.
Public works benefit even those people who are not inconvenienced by them. It isn't fair to have one part of the population have only the benefits. Therefore, the part of the population that has to suffer the negative aspects has to be paid off.
No matter what they want to do, people are always going to complain. There are some people that like to complain just for the hell of complaining.
However, as for reusing the existing Rockaway ROW, most of the people who bought their homes along the ROW did know it was there, and if it is there, there is always the possibility of it being used again, no matter who says it would never be used again. People should do their homework before buying, and if something could happen that they wouldn't want to live near, they should have bought elsewhere.
The same goes for even in use ROW, such as the LIRR Montauk branch in Queens. Everytime a plan came up to use the line for more passeneger traffic (even if temporary reroutes, such as for the Harold Project in the early 90's), the people of Glendale literally threw themselves across the tracks. Then they complain about the NYA running freight over the tracks. The tracks were ther long before anyone bought their houses along the ROW. What did they think the tracks were there for? There is a reason that some homes may be a bit cheaper than others. The problem is people want a good deal, but then don't want to accept the reason why it may have been a good deal. Again, if even the slight possibility of trains running over the ROW, either active (as with the Montauk Branch) or inactive (as with the Rockaway) bothers these people, then they shouldn't have bought/rented along the ROW.
Hear,hear.
With some folk, they ordered their brains scrambled when they were offered to them.
"Everytime a plan came up to use the line for more passeneger traffic (even if temporary reroutes, such as for the Harold Project in the early 90's), the people of Glendale literally threw themselves across the tracks. "
No, SOME people in Glendale did. You're implying that everbody in Glendale is a low grade moron and a hypocrite, and you must know enough about Queens politics to know that's not true.
NJ Transit handled it right. When some people threw themselves across the tracks of the newly set up Atlantic City rail line, NJ Transit and Amtrak started running the trains anyway, and NJ Transit politely reminded people that crossing the tracks except at approved crossings was dangerous.
Today, places like Hammonton, Egg Harbor City and Cherry Hill benefit from rail service, nobody's property values suffered anything (just the opposite), the morons got over it and found new complaints for their beer and pretzels at the bar, and life goes on.
It would be nice if MTA could do a little of that now and then.
No, SOME people in Glendale did. You're implying that everbody in Glendale is a low grade moron and a hypocrite, and you must know enough about Queens politics to know that's not true.
No, I did not mean/say that. The stink along the lines came from Glendale. I was a Glendale Resident at the time, and even though I would have been one of the ones that would have loved extra trains, I in NO WAY said ANYTHING close to saying the people of Glendale are "low grade morons and hypocrites". YOU said that. I said "the people of Glendale literally "threw themselves on the tracks" (and even laid in front of trains). That is a fact. Some of the people "on the tracks" were local politicians who represent the "people" of Glendale, so if a politician representing "the people" lay on the tracks, what I said is accurate.
"The stink along the lines came from Glendale. I was a Glendale Resident at the time, and even though I would have been one of the ones that would have loved extra trains, I in NO WAY said ANYTHING close to saying the people of Glendale are "low grade morons and hypocrites". "
OK. However, the "people of Glendale" isn't accurate either. A few loudmouths (heads of "neighborhood associations" is more like it).
"YOU said that."
No. My post pretty clearly indicates I don't think they are. The ones who threw themselves on the tracks are, but they don't represent the majority of people in the area, though they want to pretend they do.
"I said "the people of Glendale literally "threw themselves on the tracks" (and even laid in front of trains). That is a fact."
Not really. See above.
"Some of the people "on the tracks" were local politicians who represent the "people" of Glendale,"
looking for a photo op catering to the bigots in the community, no doubt (skin color does matter to some politicians, esp. in Queens)
so if a politician representing "the people" lay on the tracks, what I said is accurate.
Nobody on this board is actually stupid enough to believe that - and certainly not you.
:0)
By the way, I'm not trying to insult you - I'm just being very satirical; about Glendale politicians.
I know, and anytime we can laugh at politicians it's a good thing......
The ones who threw themselves on the tracks are, but they don't represent the majority of people in the area, though they want to pretend they do.
LOL, now that I agree with. Throwing oneself on the tracks is "moronic" and yes they do pretend to represent the majority of people. And the sight of it with the local politicians and " loudmouths" does look very idiotic.
looking for a photo op catering to the bigots in the community, no doubt (skin color does matter to some politicians, esp. in Queens)
In this case, I really don't think race was even a remote issue. I remember it from the extra trains they ran through due to the Harold Project. It may have been a "fear" issue for when some ideas of turning the line over to the subway arose at times, but I have no idea about those instances.
so if a politician representing "the people" lay on the tracks, what I said is accurate.
Nobody on this board is actually stupid enough to believe that - and certainly not you.
LOL, and again, like you said with the "loudmouths", the "claim" to.
There is a difference between the Rockaway ROW and the Montauk ROW. The Montauk ROW is still active and so anybody who buys near them should expect that the service can be ramped up for whatever reason.
The Rockaway ROW is nowhere near working order. Any effort to restore service on the line would require pretty much the same effort as building a new line. By buying a house near the Rockaway ROW, it's a safe bet that nothing will happen, and if it does, it should be treated like a regular project should (pay off the neighbors).
Sensible...
I have to admit as a railfan I love grade crossings. When I go from my house in East Meadow to my inlaws in New Hyde Park by car there are two ways I go.Meadowbrook to Old Country Rd, then Willis Av so I can pass the double set of crossings there.Hempstead Tnpk to New Hyde Park Rd (it might be Franklin Av there, I'm not sure) then N/B on NHP Rd so I can cross both the Hempstead Branch and the Main Line. I used to take Herricks Rd, but that's not fun anymore!
I do remember, however, that there were an awful lot of car/train accidents at Unqua Rd and that was why they had to do it. I also remember the crossing at Merrick Av at Merrick Station and I have vague memories as a young tot of the crossings at Hicksville Station at rts 106 & 107.
By the way, does anyone remember the old Green Mountain Race Track in Vermont. There was a RR crossing right in the middle of the parking lot!!
I also love railroad crossings. I think the Babylon Line (although a great line from a transit aspect, and a smart move to have elevated) is a rather boring line. It was a lot more interesting when it had the old stations and grade crossings. I never saw it that way, so I am only speaking from photos I have seen. However I do vaguely remember them finishing the final piece around Massapequa Park when I was a kid.
Although a necessary project, I feel something was lost when they raised Hicksville, the Babylon Branch, etc.
Yeah. I remember stepping off a rush hour "wrong-railed" electric local at New Hyde Park one winter night, walking to the crossing, then waiting patiently for the train to clear the intersection. A couple of seconds after the last car passed me, the Huntington Express rocketed by, doing MAS (or even more. I know LIRR limits trains to 80, but I swear Scout's Honor this puppy was moving 90). A combination of that blasting horn, the square wheels the M1 is famous for (allergic to the truing machine), the clanging bell at the crossing, well, it was all very impressive.
SQUARE wheels? With the M-1's riding qualities, I thought they were PENTAGONAL.;-)
Yes indead, it is very impressive! And fortunately you can still get something close to that at New Hyde Park, although I'm sure much slower now. I do believe they are talking about removing the grade crossings at New Hyde Park also. Although, I think it just talk at this time. If not, the mainline may look something like the Babylon Branch in the future - a pity.
Have they reduced MAS there (I hope not).
The state provided grant money to remove crossings along that line some years ago. Recall that Mineola had two RR crossings, one on each end of the station. The trains are now on an overpass on one side; the road was sunk into a rolling dip, so to speak. I don't know if the other side has been done yet.
The state provided grant money to remove crossings along that line some years ago. Recall that Mineola had two RR crossings, one on each end of the station. The trains are now on an overpass on one side; the road was sunk into a rolling dip, so to speak. I don't know if the other side has been done yet.
That was the Herricks Road grade crossing, elimination of which became a priority after a vanload of teens tried to race a train to the crossing (it was a tie, unfortunately for them). Priority notwithstanding, it took years to complete the work, and of course the job went massively over budget.
I'm from Merrick. We used to kill off one person a month just before they elevated the thing. Yes the station *was* pretty, I loved coming into the station, standing on the bottom step of the coach, holding the handrail and leaning over the edge as the train swept into the station.
All of that is gone now, but the new elevated structure is NOT like a noisy el at all, but very quiet, you hardle ever notice the trains, and if you are on the platform and have your back turned to the train, youll almost not hear it sneak up behind you.
Besides, traffic is much better in Merrick now. Instead of two grade crossings there are three that cross the line (not counting Babylon Turnpike in either case.) The town is more open rather than being divided. It was more divided when the trains were on the ground.
Elias
Elias, I agree with you, I even said that in my post. It was a needed project, and did help the area. It is in no way like an 'elevated" structure. As a transit line, the Babylon Branch is probably the LIRR's showpiece line. I never said it isn't a great line.
However, as a railfan line, it is rather boring. I still say that when they raised the line, something was lost. The Babylon line is no boubolic line anymore.
No contest though about whether it was a good idea, or necessary, I agree completely. It's just like I feel about the old diesel trains. The new ones were very necessary, but something was lost when they got the new bi-levels.
As an occasional user of the Montauk Branch, rest assured that I am very comfortable and happy speeding through the Babylon Branch on the Bi-levels (it shouldn't be any other way), but I hope this clarifies what I meant in my other post - the Babylon Branch was "ruined" in a railroading sense.
The Babylon line is no boubolic line anymore.
I remember riding the train with my father.
In Merrick we had *Automatic Crossing Gates* that went up and down all by themselves! WOW, I remember when they were handcranked.
But Freeport *still* had the handcranked crossing gates, and a man who would come out to crank the gates for all of the trains.
My Father said that they were not going to change the gates at Freeport, because they were going to ELEVATE the line instead.
I remember such a hastle that was in Freeport, because they had to move the line aside, and then elevate it and then move the trains over and remove the temporary tracks.
Of course they did the same thing in Merrick in its turn, but in Merrick the whole station had to be moved west of Merrick Avenue in order to provide the high level platforms, and then later to do this song and dance to elevate the line.
I do remmeber going into work one afternoon, and driving my little car right up to the station house (in the 30 minute parking zone) and getting on a train for the city. A cop watched me get on the train. Maybe he figgured to give me a ticket, but on the very next train back again, my dad got off the train, got into the car and drove home. So much for the officer's vigilence.
Elias
Gee, when I saw you responded to my post I could have sworn it was going to be about "ageism" for my comment about kids not listening! Thanks for not mentioning it! :)
Kids often DON'T listen! If I sent 20,000 4-year-olds to Iraq I could win the war merely by telling them, "DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING!":-}
Gee, when I saw you responded to my post I could have sworn it was going to be about "ageism" for my comment about kids not listening! Thanks for not mentioning it! :)
But kids don't listen! Or maybe they do, but choose not to take the advice, either way, that's truth, not ageism.
>>> But kids don't listen! Or maybe they do, but choose not to take the advice, either way, that's truth, not ageism. <<<
But if society chooses not to let 5 year olds drive an automobile, or vote, or engage in sex, you have argued in the past that it was unacceptable ageism. Have you started to gain wisdom with your advancing age?
Tom
But if society chooses not to let 5 year olds drive an automobile, or vote, or engage in sex, you have argued in the past that it was unacceptable ageism. Have you started to gain wisdom with your advancing age?
No, I haven't lost any wisdom.
No driving age should exist. Since tests are already required to qualify to drive, it is superfluous.
No voting age should exist, if a person wishes to vote and fills out the necessary form, he or she must have the right to do so.
No law on age of consent should exist. Therefore there should be no such crime as "statutory rape." A court can decide whether it was consensual just as a court decides for all cases involving parties who have travelled over 10,518,052,204 miles.
So in other words, you wouldn't mind joining the Man-Boy Love Association. You also wouldn't mind having sex with a six year old girl if she asked for it, and think that it's perfectly OK for an eight-year old boy to bring a real, loaded gun to school with him if that is what he thought best to do.
So in other words, you wouldn't mind joining the Man-Boy Love Association. You also wouldn't mind having sex with a six year old girl if she asked for it
Where did I ever say this? Just tell me where I said this?
This kind of crap isn't worthy of a know-it-all like you. And YOU were the one who told me not to lower myself to a personal level.
If any six-year old was qualified to consent to sex, then YES, consensual sex with said individual should be legal. Since there is no such person, it is irrelevant. I however object to using frequent orbital miles for ANY qualifications. If a crime has occured, let a judge and jury decide.
Ron: "So in other words, you wouldn't mind joining the Man-Boy Love Association. You also wouldn't mind having sex with a six year old girl if she asked for it "
A.P. "Where did I ever say this? Just tell me where I said this?"
Hey, I'm just trying to find out where you've placed the limits. I'm also trying to find out how consistent this is (note Old Tom's reply to you).
"If any six-year old was qualified to consent to sex, then YES, consensual sex with said individual should be legal. Since there is no such person, it is irrelevant.
I however object to using frequent orbital miles for ANY qualifications. If a crime has occured, let a judge and jury decide."
OK. Do we have enough judges for this? Your idea sounds interesting, but I dn't know if I want to live in a world where 1 out of four people is a judge...after all, without rules we'd all be groping around looking for guidance...
OK. Do we have enough judges for this? Your idea sounds interesting, but I dn't know if I want to live in a world where 1 out of four people is a judge...after all, without rules we'd all be groping around looking for guidance...
Since all of these cases go to trial anyway, unless there's a guilty plea, there won't be a need for more judges.
But obviously a lot of social revolutions involved major changes with society, such as the abolition of slavery, and the extension of the right to vote to people without property, racial minorities and women.
I don't think we should continue this discussion on Subtalk, we have gone far afield and into too controversial a topic.
Also, let me apologize for some of the low blows I have taken in this argument.
"Since all of these cases go to trial anyway, unless there's a guilty plea, there won't be a need for more judges. "
I think you screwed up something there in the translation....
"I don't think we should continue this discussion on Subtalk, we have gone far afield and into too controversial a topic."
What? How DARE you insinuate that we are being controversial or afield? Why, there could be a revolution tomorrow and Subtalk would be all about club sandwiches, chicken parmigiana and the other dishes offered by that sandwich shop chain, instead of trains. It just takes one man with an empty stomach to change the world...
:0) 8-) :-) 80)
"Also, let me apologize for some of the low blows I have taken in this argument. "
No apology required.
Why not? It seems 1 out of 4 people is a LAWYER...(LOL)
Ah! You got me!
Quick: Why doesn't God destroy Satan?
Answer: Because even God needs a good lawyer now and then..
Why not? It seems 1 out of 4 people is a LAWYER...(LOL)
"parties who have travelled over 10,518,052,204 miles"
Please note that this number has 8 excess digits of supposed accuracy.
Since the earth revolves around its axis, people closer to the equator travel further than those at the poles. This makes a difference of over 1 million miles a year even when comparing Latitude 30 with Latitude 45.
Also, why is the sun the center of your universe? The solar system also travels relative to the neighboring stars.
Indeed.
But in order to travel that many miles, don't you have to obtain a Captain's license for a Constitution class starship? Do they let people under18 into the Space Academy?
Travel about the Earth's axis and around space isn't used to calculate qualifications. Only distance travelled around the sun counts.
An unpopular view here, I'm sure, but I agree. We do need to be careful about how this is applied, but something should be done. (And it shouldn't be limited to property holders -- I know you're not a fan of renters, but they have the same quality-of-life rights as owners.)
Bravo!
And also the same rights to affordable rail transportation in their neighborhoods as owners.
Nobody has rights to affordable RAIL transportation in their neighborhood, otherwise every low density backwater neighborhood would have to have a subway station.
"Nobody has rights to affordable RAIL transportation in their neighborhood, otherwise every low density backwater neighborhood would have to have a subway station. "
Your statement is illogical. Reread it. I said AFFORDABLE. By definition, a backwater not within the service limits of a transit system would not justify investment in rail.
The Rockaways are considered by some to be a backwater - but rail transit is crucial there.
Yes and over 100,000 people live in the Rock. Hardly low density. Your assessment of rail transit being crucial there is RIGHT ON!
Your statement is illogical. Reread it. I said AFFORDABLE. By definition, a backwater not within the service limits of a transit system would not justify investment in rail.
Sorry, but YOUR statement is illogical. You never said "Everyone has rights to affordable rail transit unless they live outside the service limits of a transit system."
Reread it.
"You never said "Everyone has rights to affordable rail transit unless they live outside the service limits of a transit system.""
I apologize for not realizing Ihad to be that explicit about it.
An unpopular view here, I'm sure, but I agree. We do need to be careful about how this is applied, but something should be done. (And it shouldn't be limited to property holders -- I know you're not a fan of renters, but they have the same quality-of-life rights as owners.)
My point about the payoffs is to offset the loss of property value. It would have nothing to do quality of life.
Renters would be equally treated when it comes to things like installing new soundproof insulation, if some things like that are used instead of financial payments.
"My point about the payoffs is to offset the loss of property value. It would have nothing to do quality of life."
The trouble with that is, that you are referring to what is mostly a myth (but one that served as an excellent code word for opportunist bigots, among others), and has been for 30 years.
How is that mostly a myth? Building negative projects next to houses causes the property to go down, nobody wants to live near a sewage treatment plant. Or is that only oppurtunistic bigots who don't want to live next to a sewage treatment plant?
You're mixing up a lot of things which don't belong together.
Take modern transit siting and construction out of your argument, and you have a point (I am not including the Rockaway ROW in this part of the thread). Otherwise you're simply repeating ignorant nonsense for its own sake.
You however are refining the argument to extreme specifics in order to make yourself look right at any cost.
You are right when it comes to "modern transit siting and construction." But I was not talking about modern transit siting and construction. If I was, then I would have no reason to bring up the matter about financial payoffs and mitigation.
"But I was not talking about modern transit siting and construction. If I was, then I would have no reason to bring up the matter about financial payoffs and mitigation. "
OK. I'm glad you posted that.
I think we agree that the Rockaway ROW is something that would cause trouble in the way you describe.
Are there other upcoming transit or commuter rail proposals or projects underway which would cause you concern?
Is a lease worth nothing in your eyes?
If I sign a one-year lease for an apartment at its market value of $1,000 per month, and three months later somebody (whether public or private) does something that reduces its market value to $500 per month, I am no less entitled to collect damages of $500 per month for the remaining nine months of my lease than the landlord is entitled to collect damages on the reduction in the value of his property.
If you prefer, think of the lease as a piece of property worth (in this case) $12,000 at signing, but later reduced to $7,500 due to the new power plant (or whatever) next door.
I agree. While renters certainly do not have as much vested interest in an area as an owner does, they certainly do have an interest.
A good example is the area facing the WTC site. Many renters saw their premium apartments facing the WTC turn almost worthless in a matter of hours. People paid big bucks for the view of the WTC, etc, not a view of a dump, and now a construction site. While this situation is a bit different than a power plant or whatever being built near someone's home (rented or owned) it's the same market conditions.
While renters certainly do not have as much vested interest in an area as an owner does,
Not necessarily.
A long-term renter has much more of a vested interest in the area than an absentee landlord does.
(Rent control was brought up elsewhere, I think in another thread. Without passing judgment, I'll point out that this is often the case under rent control: rent control encourages long-term rentals but also gives the landlord less of an incentive to care about the property -- especially, in both cases, in an area where market rents have tended to increase over time.)
If I sign a one-year lease for an apartment at its market value of $1,000 per month, and three months later somebody (whether public or private) does something that reduces its market value to $500 per month, I am no less entitled to collect damages of $500 per month for the remaining nine months of my lease than the landlord is entitled to collect damages on the reduction in the value of his property.
In that situation, it probably would make sense just to move out and find another apartment. You'd lose your security deposit, but you wouldn't be faced with paying $1,000 per month for nine months on an apartment that's now only worth $500 per month. Moving out would be a way of cutting your losses.
A practical approach. If the landlord found half his/her tenants wanting to do the same thing, maybe the rent asked would drop.
If the landlord wanted to take you to court you can still be liable for all the rent remaining on your lease, not just the security deposit. And rightfully so.
It doesn't work that way. A lease is a contract. I can't just walk off and leave my end of the deal unfulfilled.
Besides, moving can be a substantial hardship, financially and otherwise.
I've always thought that when a public project is built somewhere, they shouldn't just buy off the property they need to build it, but also pay for the neighbors' loss in property value.
That might not be a bad idea with respect to some public-works projects. It's largely irrelevant with respect to rail transit projects, however, as they usually increase property values.
As an amendment to my previous responses to you: Within only the specific context othe Rockaway ROW, you have a good point (and Rockaway isn't coming back anytime soon - or perhaps ever).
"Could it possibly be that your property values might go down? I mean, saving for years for a house, then getting a discount for being next to the tracks (a double bonus for railfans), but then having your whole investment go down the drain by having an UGLY substation next door"
That is an issue for some ROW, especially those in older built-up areas where it's difficult to separate them from people's houses. The abandoned Rockaway Line is a prime example. If you can put the train in a culvert oron an elevated, preferably on its own median (like Miami Metrorail or LA's Green Line) so much the better.
A substation must be cited carefully.
However, for most new projects it is NOT true. In fact, studies consistently document that passenger rail projects have no effect on property values except where you approach stations, and then property values increase sharply, sometimes doubling. This was true in NY, Atlanta, San Francisco, and Washington DC.
"And to make matters worse, if you have kids you have the third rail to worry about. Because as any parent knows, no matter how much you tell a kid not to do something, like cross the tracks, they're gonna do it anyway. "
That's why you have to properly isolate the ROW. But listing that as a reason not to build a ral system is dishonest, disingenuous. It's illogical NIMBY at its worst.
That's why you have to properly isolate the ROW. But listing that as a reason not to build a ral system is dishonest, disingenuous. It's illogical NIMBY at its worst
Good Points. I agree with that. Unfortunately, that is a card that they usually use to instal a "fear" factor to get more people to jump onboard against moving projects forward.
Agreed!
By the way, in my previous post I should have written "sited," not "cited." A very dumb mistake. I apologize.
However, for most new projects it is NOT true. In fact, studies consistently document that passenger rail projects have no effect on property values except where you approach stations, and then property values increase sharply, sometimes doubling. This was true in NY, Atlanta, San Francisco, and Washington DC.
If you live in a quiet location, and then all of a sudden noisy trains pass your window, your property values WILL go down.
If you live near a station, the trains aren't as noisy, and there's a station so it's even.
If you live a short block from the station, it's still convenient, it's not significantly noisy and so there are NO disadvantages.
The people disadvantaged should be paid off. They then get to share equal benefit in the new project with those not disadvantaged.
"If you live in a quiet location, and then all of a sudden noisy trains pass your window, your property values WILL go down. "
There are no recent examples of that effect happening. No one has experienced a loss of property values in any recently built transit system - Washington Metrorail, MARTA, NYC Transit at Roosevelt Island and Jamaica (of course that's subway, not elevated).
"If you live near a station, the trains aren't as noisy, and there's a station so it's even."
False statement, according to all available studies and actual experience. Property values rise near stations. It's unequivocal. No down effect. It's not controversial.
"If you live a short block from the station, it's still convenient, it's not significantly noisy and so there are NO disadvantages"
You are obviously not familiar with transit and property developments over the past 20 years. I encourage you to do some reading.
"There are no recent examples of that effect happening."
But perhaps that is because any elevated or surface level transit system that is within 100 feet of a residence is shot down before it ever gets built. Do you have any recent examples where elevated or surface level lines have been built in close proximity to residences at all?
Then we can ask if property values have gone up or down there.
"But perhaps that is because any elevated or surface level transit system that is within 100 feet of a residence is shot down before it ever gets built. Do you have any recent examples where elevated or surface level lines have been built in close proximity to residences at all? "
That's just my point. Modern transit systems are not built that way anymore (and haven't been for 30 years). And when system replacement occurs (sucxh as elevating the line in Merrick - see another recent post) the noise problem is often ameliorated.
This is why the Rockaway ROW is not suitable for redevelopment (unless peoplew's homes are taken by sale or forced sale through eminent domain so that the nearest house is further away), but the Van Wyck was.
A variant: In Los Angeles, the Century Freeway was derided because people were afraid property values would drop next to it. Now, that was a freeway project. I don't know if property values dropped there next to the freeway or not. However, the Green Line's operation along the median would have been expected to soften that blow a bit, in areas within a few blocks of a station.
But perhaps that is because any elevated or surface level transit system that is within 100 feet of a residence is shot down before it ever gets built. Do you have any recent examples where elevated or surface level lines have been built in close proximity to residences at all? "
That's just my point. Modern transit systems are not built that way anymore (and haven't been for 30 years). And when system replacement occurs (sucxh as elevating the line in Merrick - see another recent post) the noise problem is often ameliorated.
The LIRR in Merrick is a good example, it is as close to an apartment building as any along the Jamaica Avenue el, yet it is as I have said, constructed so that the trains are quiet. The porperty values most certainly did go up, and the neighborhood was markedly improved (over a surface running railroad, with 3rd rails at ground level.
Elias
At the risk of getting a lot of hate e-mail, I think opposition to transit projects has a lot to do with the way transit expansions change the demographics of a given neighborhood. In other words, the subway expands and bigotry does the rest to change the nabe. Far Rock (where I grew up) is an EXCELLENT example.
When the 1956 extension of the IND was completed to the Rockaways, Far Rock's demographics showed it to be largely white. After subway access made it easier (and cheaper) to go to Manhattan, middle class blacks began to find Far Rock attractive in the late 1960s. The schools were good, the crime rate was low, and, of course there was Playland and the beach.
Now, the whites could have stayed and made Far Rock a mixed nabe, but almost all of them moved out by 1980. (The city and real estate people have something to answer for in that they encouraged the white folks' ungrounded "fears" about the black families coming in, but I digress.) Anyway, the interesting thing is: There are about sixty blocks of PRIME BEACHFRONT PROPERTY with on-line subway access in Far Rock from B.36 St. to B.68 S., (interrupted only by Ocean Village at B.54) which is UNDEVELOPED. It runs from the El to the Boardwalk, and in all the time the subway has run to the Rockaways, NOTHING has EVER been built there.
So, maybe the NIMBYs are not resistant to transit because of trains. Maybe they know that "falling property values" is code for "the rest of the city might move in here".
I'm waiting for the avalanche of hatemasil...
Falling property values can certainly be a code phrase with less savory meanings attached. On the other hand, no one wants trains 10 feet from their back windows*, which is what would happen if the LIRR Rockaway branch was reestablished.
As I understand it, that line runs between 99th and 100th Streets, with the houses fronting on those streets and backing onto the ROW. Queens streets are pretty closely spaced, so that's not much room for a rail line between the houses.
*Though some people who need low rents will seek out apartments that front on an El because it's what they can afford. That doesn't mean they like it.
True. But folks who live nowhere near the train will complain if transit service is proposed for their neighborhood. Not all NIMBYs live adjacent to the tracks. Good point, though.
Interesting observation.
Perhaps subway ROW improvements, such as sound barriers, and city-sponsored landscaping improveents or beach enhancements might help.
Is that part of the Rockaways an Enterprise Zone?
It should have been. Imagine this, though: Casino gambling in the Rock, covered by an existing subway line with plenty of room for a few more tph, on beachfront property. The casino operators pay their taxes to the city, tourism and construction drive a new job market, some of this vacant land gets good housing to support all those new workers, transit virtually pays for itself. They tried to suggest this in the state legislature in 1977, but the pols shot it down. How about it in the 21st century?
>>> the whites could have stayed and made Far Rock a mixed nabe, but almost all of them moved out by 1980 <<<
Is this the whole story? Weren't there low income housing projects built in the Rockaways in the ‘70s?
>>> There are about sixty blocks of PRIME BEACHFRONT PROPERTY with on-line subway access in Far Rock from B.36 St. to B.68 S. <<<
But is this property for sale? If it is being held off the market for a tax writeoff or future speculation it may not be the fault of the subway. The other possibility is the property is too high priced to support single family homes (it will never rival the Hamptons or Newport), and the zoning and infrastructure (water, sewers) is not there for high rises.
Tom
1) The public housing along Beach Channel Drive went up in the late '50s/early '60s, with Redfern Housing on Beach Channel Drive predating the IND extension by four years.
2) The existing vacant land along Rock Fwy/Edgemere Ave. has been that way for half a century. Transit expansion usually brings development, but this never happened in Rockaway. According to the property rolls, this is all undeveloped, unsold land just waiting to be purchased.
As has been noted here before, the city often uses the Far Rockaway housing projects as a dumping ground for troublesome tenants who gotten kicked out of projects elsewhere in the city, for things like selling drugs out of their apartments. I guess the idea is that Far Rockaway's isolation means that the troublemakers are essentially out of sight, out of mind.
At the risk of getting a lot of hate e-mail, I think opposition to transit projects has a lot to do with the way transit expansions change the demographics of a given neighborhood. In other words, the subway expands and bigotry does the rest to change the nabe. Far Rock (where I grew up) is an EXCELLENT example.
When the 1956 extension of the IND was completed to the Rockaways, Far Rock's demographics showed it to be largely white. After subway access made it easier (and cheaper) to go to Manhattan, middle class blacks began to find Far Rock attractive in the late 1960s. The schools were good, the crime rate was low, and, of course there was Playland and the beach.
Now, the whites could have stayed and made Far Rock a mixed nabe, but almost all of them moved out by 1980. (The city and real estate people have something to answer for in that they encouraged the white folks' ungrounded "fears" about the black families coming in, but I digress.) Anyway, the interesting thing is: There are about sixty blocks of PRIME BEACHFRONT PROPERTY with on-line subway access in Far Rock from B.36 St. to B.68 S., (interrupted only by Ocean Village at B.54) which is UNDEVELOPED. It runs from the El to the Boardwalk, and in all the time the subway has run to the Rockaways, NOTHING has EVER been built there.
So, maybe the NIMBYs are not resistant to transit because of trains. Maybe they know that "falling property values" is code for "the rest of the city might move in here".
I'm waiting for the avalanche of hatemasil...
>>> In Los Angeles, the Century Freeway was derided because people were afraid property values would drop next to it. Now, that was a freeway project. I don't know if property values dropped there next to the freeway or not. However, the Green Line's operation along the median would have been expected to soften that blow a bit, in areas within a few blocks of a station. <<<
The main opposition to the Century Freeway, with or without the Green Line was the destruction of the neighborhoods it went through. The real battles took place during the condemnation and removal period which took place years before they started work. It takes out two full blocks of homes, and is depressed for sound suppression, and the closest homes are across a street from it. This is far different than a railroad ROW adjacent to the back yard or an el over the street in front of a house.
Tom
Oh, I totally agree with you. The engineering on that project, and is very good.
I just don't know what actually happened to property values nearest the freeway, or near off-ramps. I would predict that the presence of Green Line stations is a plus, though of what magnitude I don't know.
There are no recent examples of that effect happening. No one has experienced a loss of property values in any recently built transit system - Washington Metrorail, MARTA, NYC Transit at Roosevelt Island and Jamaica (of course that's subway, not elevated).
None of these have been built outside of people's windows. But in many dense places, if it isn't an expensive subway, it has to be outside of people's windows.
False statement, according to all available studies and actual experience. Property values rise near stations. It's unequivocal. No down effect. It's not controversial.
And how far does this have to be? People who live directly adjacent to subway stations are inconvenienced by the noise. Or is it only oppurtunistic bigots that have ears?
You are obviously not familiar with transit and property developments over the past 20 years. I encourage you to do some reading.
You are obviously not familiar with the opponent's arguments. I encourage you to stop acting like you know everything.
"None of these have been built outside of people's windows."
Bingo!
But in many dense places, if it isn't an expensive subway, it has to be outside of people's windows."
Then it won't be built, or if it is, it will be encased in a box structure or dug into a culvert. Look at Boston's Orange Line from the 1980's.
"You are obviously not familiar with the opponent's arguments."
I'm obviously familiar with yours.
"I encourage you to stop acting like you know everything. "
There's no reason for you to become defensive. Let's keep this at an adult level, shall we?
If you think you know better, prove it. Go do the reading, come back and show me what has occurred over the past 30 years.
Plwase note that I absolutely agree with you, that if things are built right next to people's homes, they deserve mitigation and compensation. A sewage treatment plant is a good example.
Of course, what would a neighborhood be like without adequate water supply and contaminated rivers and streams because you failed to build the treatment plant?
Astoria did NOT go ballistic. Some people in Astoria went ballistic, but we don't know whether or not that represents a majority opinion. But it might. The city councilman for the area at the time, Peter (blocking on his last name, he was also the Speaker) said "Over My Dead Body"
Vallone. Queens beeps past and present also solid on the issue.
If you have info suggesting Astoria isn't against it, I'd be interested. Complete inaction for the past 3 years says volumes.
Yes, here I might have to concede. Of course, lots of people want subway service and don't lift a finger to get it. There's no new service in East Elmhurst despite the fact that people do need it and a new underground route is not likely to run into a lot of NIMBY (or at least, Astoria-style).
MTA can ram the N extension down Astoria's throat if it wants to badly enough. But it's not a battle worth fighting right now. Besides, it's got a chance to try to build Second Av, with solid political support and nary a NIMBY in sight. And it's busy digging the 63rd Street tunnel under Manhattan and preparing connections in LIC for it. So the agency will take the route of least resistance and keep busy with a full plate.
Besides, it's got a chance to try to build Second Av, with solid political support and nary a NIMBY in sight.
At the risk of repeating something I said a while ago, you can be 100% assured that if the Second Avenue Subway ever gets to the point where construction is soon to start, the NIMBY's will be pouring out of the woodwork like cockroaches.
A am 100% assured that you are wrong about that. You won't hear a significant peep. Not a one.
I know Guiliani was for the N extension, and made MTA commit $650 million (?) to it from the sale Coliseum site.
The project is still on their website:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/cap2000-2004-network.htm#lag
The feds are still monitoring:
http://www.fta.dot.gov/library/policy/ns/ns2003/appb3final.html#b73
Just not sure if anyone what the status is these days. Dead quiet.
The city councilman for the area at the time, Peter (blocking on his last name, he was also the Speaker) said "Over My Dead Body"
Well, I guess *that* could be arranged.
Don't get me started...
Yes, it would be, by current plans. The political situation, was, until recently, difficult. But times (and administrations), have changed. I don't know what the political landscape looks like now.
Yes, extending the N would make the most sense. It could run via Ditmars Blvd with a few stops in between if necessary to LGA.
Getting to JFK, sometime back someone suggested that the 3 be extended from New Lots to JFK, and it doesn't sound so bad since it provides a alternative to the B15 but I say using the old LIRR ROW is more sensible since you would save hundreds of millions b/c the structure already exists.
but I say using the old LIRR ROW is more sensible since you would save hundreds of millions b/c the structure already exists.
So you say, but in reality, the structure *does NOT exist*, what *does* exist is an ROW, and that is quite valuable enough to consider using the ROW for something.
Reality suggests that all of the embankments would have to be rebuilt, the bridges replaces, and every inch of rail, third rail, ties and communications would have to be built new. But *that* is not such a big deal compared to the aqusition of an ROW, or the construction of tunnels or even elevated structres.
Elias
"Reality suggests that all of the embankments would have to be rebuilt, the bridges replaces, and every inch of rail, third rail, ties and communications would have to be built new."
Yes, but you forgot (purposefully ignore is more like it) about the legal action required to deal with encroachments, the engineering required to protect homes from noise and vibration (very tough on the Rockaway ROW, MUCH harder than on the Van Wyck), and of course, the industrial-strength NIMBY you'll encounter, vs. the handful of rank amateurs on the Van Wyck.
And, of course, the ROW does not lead directly into the Airport, as does the Van Wyck - so you have to create a new ROW for an AirTrain type vehicle to extend out to meet the LIRR. More NIMBY - this time from pissed-off Howard Beach residents.
"But *that* is not such a big deal compared to the aqusition of an ROW, or the construction of tunnels or even elevated structres. "
Nonsense and you know it.
Nonsense and you know it. [pout]
It is not such a big deal when compaired to condemning and acquiring property, or building an underground subway under say Woodhaven Blvd.
I never proposed it for an airport connection, but only as a new subway line on a fantasy map. As such I proposed following Woodhaven Boulevard as a subway to the cypress hills park, and then jogging over to the ROW for a connection with the existing line to the Rockaways. It was intended to serve the neghiborhood, and not the airport. As such some of the NIMBYisms would be mitigated. I do not know what encroachments, if any would be left. I guess I would envision the elevation of the line on strong quiet concrete risers until it joined the existing elevated structure, which in any case would have to be sosund proofed and strengthened.
It is not my highest priority plan (The Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Line holds that distinction along with the NJT/LIRR WTC project). It was drawn to see what might be possible with as an improvement to western Queens access.
Elias
How bad is the B15 anyway? Does it get stuck in traffic?
How bad is the B15 anyway? Does it get stuck in traffic?
Probably not to any unusual extent. The problem with the 3 train-to-B15 connection is that it is located in what has long been one of the very worst neighborhoods in all of New York, although it may have gotten a little better in the past few years.
Speaking as one who has grown fearless of the worst NYC neighborhoods, even I wouldn't attempt to transfer from the 3 to the B15 (with its less-than-stellar headways) while carrying luggage.
If the B15 happened to show up while I was waiting at JFK, I'd probably take it, assuming I'd be able to make it up the stairs to the el itself. It's easier to get to my final destination from the 3 than from the A.
Good for you, David!
Yes, I agree! Mazel Tov, David!
Speaking as one who has grown fearless of the worst NYC neighborhoods, even I wouldn't attempt to transfer from the 3 to the B15 (with its less-than-stellar headways) while carrying luggage.
I've heard that the 'hood is not quite as fearsome as it was just a few years ago, but I suppose it's still not the safest place for airport travelers.
Well at least you may not have to worry about all the new luggage screening at the airport, you may not have any luggage by the time you get to the airport if you use the 3 train/B15 combo.....
Actually, like David said though, it would seem to be less of a problem coming back, because after your bus to subway transfer, at least you are in the subway system waiting for a train, as opposed to just standing on the street with all your luggage waiting for the bus.
All in all though I have also become fairly fearless of many of the rough neighborhoods in NYC (basically through my railfanning). It may be a combination of the neighborhoods getting better (like you said) and me just getting used to some of the more run down areas.
in what has long been one of the very worst neighborhoods in all of New York
Should be no problem in putting a nice big El through there then!
Bit of a shame that neighborhood's not too nice - it looks quite a good way of getting to JFK on the Queens bus map!
Want to fight for a do-able subway airport project? MTA does want to build a subway to La Guardia (and has money already in the budget, set aside for it), and the PA is receptive to extending PATH to EWR Rail.
I'd prefer neither, not right now, given my caution about declining airport traffic. If I had to choose, however, I'd go with the subway to LGA. EWR already has rail service.
My understanding is that the AirTrain stations are 180' long. So after the system has been paid off, maybe MTA could build a connector, run special dual-mode cars up onto the loop, and have just the the first 3 cars open their doors.
The Rockaway branch could not be run to Manhattan without East Side Access - there simply isn't room in the Penn tubes for another line. As it is, express trains from Port Washington and Huntington, for example, sometimes come to a halt in front of stop signals, waiting to cross the East River. When the 63rd Street tunnel is in operation, then we'll have a new ballgame.
The only time anyone could even to begin to discuss a possible reactivation of the Rockaway Branch is when the East Side Access is completed.
The real answer to the Rockaway Branch is that it should never have been abandoned to begin with. Yes the LIRR should have abandoned it. But the subway should have almost immediately started running trains over it like they did on the southern end of it. If they had done it right away, the people along the line could not have complained, as they would have been use to the line there. It is safe to say that very few of the same homeowners or renters still live along the line form when the LIRR used to run service there.
"The real answer to the Rockaway Branch is that it should never have been abandoned to begin with. Yes the LIRR should have abandoned it. But the subway should have almost immediately started running trains over it like they did on the southern end of it. If they had done it right away, the people along the line could not have complained, as they would have been use to the line there. It is safe to say that very few of the same homeowners or renters still live along the line form when the LIRR used to run service there. "
Very true. And all spilled milk, unfortunately.
Another thing you forgot to mention is how The Train to the Plane flopped. I realize a connection from the Queens Blvd Line would mean less of a ride time than the Fulton Street line but do you really think that small savings of time would add thousands of riders. I think most people going to the airport would not want to take a subway period. The TTTP (train to the plane) only stopped at a couple of stations and did not mingle with non-flying passengers and still didn't do good. I doubt shaving off a few minutes from the ride time would make that much of a difference. Another thing to consider is that the QB lines are busier with more trains than the Fulton Street Line. It might be harder to fit in non-stop trains.
If there was ever a time to refurbish the Rockaway Branch, it was when the IND just took it over from the LIRR. It would have made sense at that time to have Rockaway trains go from the QB line rather than the Fulton St Line.
TTTP flopped because it did not go directly to the terminals. Airline passengers do not want to carry luggage from train to bus to plane. The AirTrain is going to get into trouble because, while it does serve the airline terms, it requires the flying public to make one (or more) transfers (carrying luggage) going to/from the airport. The airlines know that the customer wants a one seat ride to their destination. That's why there are nonstops. Chicago knows this, too, that's why their trains take you right to your airline.
Chicago's trains DO NOT take you right to the airline at O'Hare. Since O'Hare is too large to be served by one station, and having the subway trains loop around is impractical, people have to transfer to a peoplemover at O'Hare station.
What difference does it make if people transfer in the airport or off of it? They're still transferring.
Chicago's trains DO NOT take you right to the airline at O'Hare. Since O'Hare is too large to be served by one station, and having the subway trains loop around is impractical, people have to transfer to a peoplemover at O'Hare station.
Only to get to the international terminal. The 'L' station is a short walk from all three domestic terminals. And those who do need to make use of the peoplemover don't pay a $5 fare.
What difference does it make if people transfer in the airport or off of it? They're still transferring.
Red herring. If a track connection had been included at Howard Beach, then people wouldn't have had to transfer. There would have been direct service from every station served by the A train in Manhattan and Brooklyn to each terminal at JFK. AirTrain cars are the same dimensions as the R-38's currently running on the A.
Red herring. If a track connection had been included at Howard Beach, then people wouldn't have had to transfer. There would have been direct service from every station served by the A train in Manhattan and Brooklyn to each terminal at JFK. AirTrain cars are the same dimensions as the R-38's currently running on the A.
And how often would the service to the airport run? Every 40 minutes with every 40 minutes to the Rockaways? Or would it run only every 10 minutes, with Rockaway service reduced to a shuttle and Lefferts Blvd service abandoned off peak?
That's the relevant problem. First, you're alternating Lefferts and Rockaway service. Now you're splitting Rockaway service into two branches.
A better idea (much more costly) would have been to extend the E subway under the Van Wyck Expressway to the airport. You'd have additional local stations serving Ozone Park and South Ozone Park, and then the airport, and you wouldn't have to worry so much about splitting.
(Of course, that might mean the Archer Av line wuld have become a J train service only. Would a split E service - Jamaica Center and the Airport -be viable?)
Airport trains could use only the two inside tracks off the LIRR ROW from Ozone Park. Regular subway service could use the two outside tracks they're on now. No conflict. (The two inside tracks become the connection to JFK's terms via a flyover at How Beach.)
Thank you.
Extend the C to Lefferts, as others have proposed (independent of JFK operations). Alternate A trains go to JFK.
Or decouple trains en route, as discussed in a recent thread.
You're grasping at straws.
(Incidentally, if requiring a transfer to Rockaway service -- which I'm not recommending -- is denigrated as "reduced to a shuttle," why isn't requiring a transfer to JFK service not similarly denigrated?)
Extend the C to Lefferts, as others have proposed (independent of JFK operations). Alternate A trains go to JFK.
Leffets Blvd passengers would be stuck with a long local ride.
Still, this would entail service every 20 minutes to the airport.
Or decouple trains en route, as discussed in a recent thread.
Not practical.
Incidentally, if requiring a transfer to Rockaway service -- which I'm not recommending -- is denigrated as "reduced to a shuttle," why isn't requiring a transfer to JFK service not similarly denigrated?
Rockaway already has through service, therefore if it becomes a shuttle, it would be reduced. How is making an airport service a shuttle any kind of reduction over what is there now?
Leffets Blvd passengers would be stuck with a long local ride.
Ten-minute headways on the local are better than twenty-minute headways on the express, especially if locals are timed to reach Euclid just before expresses. Those who choose to stay on the local will lose six minutes in travel but gain an average of five minutes in the wait, assuming off-peak headways. (There could still be through rush hour express service.) Why is an optional cross-platform transfer with a timed connection for people generally without luggage more onerous than a required walking transfer for people with luggage?
Still, this would entail service every 20 minutes to the airport.
Yes. That's how often the A arrives at Howard Beach now, anyway, for most of the day -- yet the PA plans on operating at 12-minute headways. So much for the possibility of timed connections! (Which is better, a wait of up to 20 minutes or a wait of up to 20 minutes followed by a wait of up to 12 minutes? When two AirTrains leave Howard Beach between A's, will anyone ride the second one?) During peak periods, the PA will operate two-car trains at 4-minute headways -- ten-car trains at 20-minute headways have the same carrying capacity, except that some of the PA's two-car trains will be empty.
Rockaway already has through service, therefore if it becomes a shuttle, it would be reduced. How is making an airport service a shuttle any kind of reduction over what is there now?
A walking transfer to a $5 service is certainly a reduction over a walking transfer to a free service. (Before Peter Rosa chimes in, you've fallen for the trap. The PA could run a decent shuttle bus service, but a decent shuttle bus service wouldn't drum up support for AirTrain.)
I thought that the A service to Far Rockaway middays had been increased to a 15-minute frequency last spring (and to Lefferts too, giving 8 t.p.h. overall on the A)? Four t.p.h. is still too few for a good airport service, but ut is at least better than 3 t.p.h. It would make sense, though, for the AirTrain to be at 4 rather than 5 t.p.h. to mesh in with the subway timetable. However, even 12 minutes would be an inadequate frequency for the airport's internal-transit needs. Are some AirTrain journeys going to run purely within the airport, not going through to Howard Bearch?
My impression is that the A returned to 6 tph midday service when regular IRT service was restored. I may be wrong. (On Sundays, the A definitely runs at 6 tph, but I'm not sure if the increase to 8 covered weekends.)
Most AirTrains won't leave the terminal loop.
I don't think 4 tph or even 3 tph to the airport would be a big problem.
When two AirTrains leave Howard Beach between A's, will anyone ride the second one?
I have't thought about that. That's close to insane. The second one will probably be empty except for some Howard Beach customers, or a few (very few) Rockaway passengers that happened to come from the other direction and crossed over.
I believe the only solution when Airtrain opens is to finally end the A splitting. Extend the C to Lefferts, and have all A's go to Far Rockaway (or alternate between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park and eliminate the S). As for the Lefferts people complaining about loss of express service - tough. How can 3 stations dictate how the entire Rockaway branch is run? And as explained, the Lefferts stations would be actually served better on average, and if they still choose to switch to the express at Euclid, more power to them.
(A) Train is 600' long.
(AirHead) Trian is 180' long.
People with bags not as fast as commuters at rush hour station, I'd not be surprized if the second train had more passengers than the first.
Elias
Consider an example.
A arrives at 12:00.
AirTrain departs at 12:08.
AirTrain departs at 12:20.
A arrives at 12:20.
Who's going to be riding that second AirTrain?
Yes, some people will get on in the parking lots, but the first AirTrain will be much more crowded than the second.
If AirTrains and A trains ran at the same headway, loading patterns would be much more predictable.
I agree with you David.
But it's too early to condemn something that hasn't happened yet. There's plenty of time to tweak the system.
But it's too early to condemn something that hasn't happened yet.
Does that also extend to praise?
"Does that also extend to praise?"
Yes. For example, when your AirTrain-related posts make more sense, I will praise you.
:0)
Or for example:
(A) arrives 1300
(AirT) departs 1308
(AirT) departs 1318
(A) arrives 1320
(AirT) departs 1328
(AirT) departs 1338
(A) arrives 1340
etc etc etc....
Elias
There are some interesting ideas there. Once AirTrain is up an running, the TA would do well to observe the situation and do some tweaking.
""When two AirTrains leave Howard Beach between A's, will anyone ride the second one? ""
"I have't thought about that. That's close to insane..."
It's not insane. Just because a train goes out empty doesn't mean that it came in empty. One should expect arrivals at the airtrain station to be more evenly dispersed. Further, the Howard Beach branch will also serve the long term parking lot -- which should have a more uniform distribution of passengers both coming and going.
CG
Good point.
Having 12 minute Howard Beach airtrain service is incredibly stupid, but the Airtrain will also serve Jamaica station, which will have far more frequent service.
Not according to the AirTrain website.
Nor is Jamaica relevant to the A train connection (or lack thereof), which we were discussing.
I did not mean that Airtrain to Jamaica would have far more frequent service, but that the available connections there would have more frequent service.
And the discussion was about how best to provide a connection from an airport service to the subway, not only about a connection at Howard Beach.
"A walking transfer to a $5 service is certainly a reduction over a walking transfer to a free service. (Before Peter Rosa chimes in, you've fallen for the trap. The PA could run a decent shuttle bus service, but a decent shuttle bus service wouldn't drum up support for AirTrain.)"
I think you're falling into the trap here of being too myopic. Passengers still have a free transfer from the A train. You just have to go to Lefferts instead of Howard Beach. The Q10 runs every 10 minutes (15 minutes in the evening), which is far better than the PA's shuttle bus ran.
The only folks losing anything are those who take a bus to their subway station -- they won't have the free metrocard transfer at Lefferts.
CG
I think you're falling into the trap here of being too myopic. Passengers still have a free transfer from the A train. You just have to go to Lefferts instead of Howard Beach
True, but then how is the AirTrain an improvement over the current service. Currently there is a free shuttle at Howard Beach, which I believe will be lost. AirTrain from HB should be a free transfer to the subway system. As for the Jamaic run, maybe a similar price as the subway system, similar to PATH, which the PA also runs. A "double fare" is still better than this premium $5.00 fare would be.
They expect airport workers to be using this system. Isn't that an extreme price for daily users? As for airline passengers, I guess they can add that as a "cost of traveling", but I don't see how this is fair to airport workers that are going to be using this to get tho their jobs.
"Still, this would entail service every 20 minutes to the airport."
"Yes. That's how often the A arrives at Howard Beach now, anyway, for most of the day -- yet the PA plans on operating at 12-minute headways."
Last spring NYCT modified A headways so that now they are 15 or 16 minutes midday (as they remain on Saturday). Sunday admittedly is mostly 20 minutes (except in the late afternoon, when it is 16, incidentally corresponding to the peak time at JFK.
It still doesn't synchronize, but it's not as bad as it was.
Judging from the lack of crowding on the Newark Airlink, it may be a few years before crowding on every other train of the the JFK line is an issue.
I beg to differ, sir. The next time you're in Chicago on the Kennedy Expressway, when you approach the airport, LOOK UP. The ROW goes from grade level, to the terms w2ith a stop at each term. Flew AA to ORD to see my sister and rode into Belmont from the term. ( There is a long peoplemover from above Baggage Claim to the station, though, like the ones at LGA from the parking garage)
Here's some reasons the JFK express flopped in 1990.
1) Budget cuts
2) When A's ran express on weekdays, it interfered with service
3) The premium fare of $3.50 or something like that turned many people away
4) It wasn't very frequent [every 20-30 minutes]
5) Low ridership
Can't run it via the current QB line, it would have to be a new line beside it or make the proposed bypass tracks come to use and then run it via the LIRR ROW in the middle tracks to Howard Beach.
Your valid objections notwithstanding, Atlanta, Washington DC and Chicago have proven beyond debate that people will use a subway to get to the airport if it's convenient.
Atlanta, Washington DC and Chicago have proven beyond debate that people will use a subway to get to the airport if it's convenient.
How many are using a subway to get to the airport?
The current usage figures for O'Hare - the number of people using the O'Hare station is roughly comparable to the number of people using the Lefferts Blvd station. The current usage figures for O'Hare are 33% less than currently use the Myrtle-Wykoff Station on the L and M lines.
"How many are using a subway to get to the airport?"
MARTA trains in Atlanta arrive full of people. Having lived there and visited there, I took that train regularly to Hartsfield. All train cars were virtually SRO. End of story.
Rather than comparing O'Hare to Lefferts, which is inappropriate (the two stations have absolutely no logical relationship to each other), compare O'Hare to other stations in Chicago, and to the Midway Airport station. If I recall correctly, CTA carries a little over a million people a day (vs 7 million for NYCTA), so the O'Hare station's performance needs to be evaluated by Chicago transit standards, not New York standards.
If, hypothetically, there is service on the Moscow subway to Sheremetyevo Airport (I don't know if there is or not), it would be inappropriate to compare traffic at the Airport station to a station in New York? Why? Because the Moscow subway carries twice as many people as NYCTA does, and you would be overly generous to Moscow in making such a comparison. (On the other hand, you'd also have to factor in how many people fly in Russia, compared to the US).
MARTA trains in Atlanta arrive full of people. Having lived there and visited there, I took that train regularly to Hartsfield. All train cars were virtually SRO.
Unless you can quantify your observations by published turnstile counts, you observations are full of something other than people. Monthly turnstile counts for the CTA are published on the web.
Rather than comparing O'Hare to Lefferts, which is inappropriate (the two stations have absolutely no logical relationship to each other), compare O'Hare to other stations in Chicago...
The comparison to Lefferts (and Myrtle-Wyckoff) was made to show how much usage an existing airport facility generates compared to more traditional users.
I did not attempt to extrapolate O'Hare's CTA usage to AirTrain's. However, you raised the point.
The number of people who leave an airport station is most strongly correlated to the number of people who use the airport not the number of people who use other stops on the subway. O'Hare handles more passengers and has more on site workers than JFK. One might therefore conclude that Airtrain's combined turnstile count for the Howard Beach and Jamaica should be lower than the turnstile count for O'Hare. The PA also concluded the same. Their combined estimated totals are 25% lower than the current O'Hare turnstile count. This places AirTrain's projected projected use at Howard Beach and Jamaica to something on the order of Prospect Park.
If, hypothetically, there is service on the Moscow subway to Sheremetyevo Airport...
Comrade, the closest Metro stations are 30 minutes away by public bus.
(Regarding Moscow Metro and the airport):"Comrade, the closest Metro stations are 30 minutes away by public bus."
Bummer. Maybe they'll do something about that one day...
"The comparison to Lefferts (and Myrtle-Wyckoff) was made to show how much usage an existing airport facility generates compared to more traditional users. "
And you failed to do so, again, because you're using the wrong map. How about one of the stations on the State Street line, or the Loop (I am not familiar enough with Chicago's subway to know which station provides the most appropriate comparison. Evidently, you aren't either. It doesn't bother you as much as it bothers me).
"Unless you can quantify your observations by published turnstile counts, you observations are full of something other than people."
They are a lot more realistic than many of your observations, posted here over the years - some of which I have shown you to be little more than fabrications. At least I was really watching...
"Monthly turnstile counts for the CTA are published on the web."
Good for them. So why didn't you refer to them instead of Myrtle-Wyckoff?
How about one of the stations on the State Street line, or the Loop...
The O'Hare train uses neither the State St Subway nor the Loop.
The question is: how many people are likely to use AirTrain from Jamaica and Howard Beach. The answer based on both the O'Hare example and Port Authority estimates is comparitively few. Based on the estimate it is on the order of single interchange express stop like Myrtle-Wyckoff or Prospect Park. Perhaps somebody would be able to tell us where an annual turnstile count of 2.4 million(O'Hare) lies withing NYCT or 2.0 million (PA estimate).
Regarding Moscow Metro and the airport):"Comrade, the closest Metro stations are 30 minutes away by public bus."
Bummer. Maybe they'll do something about that one day...
Moscow's airport terminal can handle 2,100 passengers per hour. A Moscow subway line can handle 80,000 passengers per hour. Perhaps, one might be built, if somebody bestowed a couple of billion dollars for a dedicated line. However, unlike airport access over here, there is no special off-budget funding for such lines in the Russian Republic.
"Moscow's airport terminal can handle 2,100 passengers per hour. A Moscow subway line can handle 80,000 passengers per hour. Perhaps, one might be built, if somebody bestowed a couple of billion dollars for a dedicated line. However, unlike airport access over here, there is no special off-budget funding for such lines in the Russian Republic. "
If I recall correctly, Moscow is also served by Domedovo (spelling?) Airport and one other field whose primary purpose may be military transport. Does Domedovo have rail access?
If I recall correctly, Moscow is also served by Domedovo (spelling?) Airport and one other field whose primary purpose may be military transport. Does Domedovo have rail access?
HET.
"HET."
?????
For those who are Cyrillically challenged: the answer is NO!
Oh, so that is how you spell "Nyet" in Cyrillic.
Thank you.
>>If I recall correctly, Moscow is also served by Domedovo (spelling?) Airport and one other field whose primary purpose may be military transport. Does Domedovo have rail access?
>HET.
It's a joke, a stupid kind of joke IMHO.
Moscow has 4 airports: Sheremetyevo, Vnukovo, Domodedovo and Bykovo.
I don't know which is the largest but Bykovo is exactly the smallest.
Domodedovo and Bykovo have rail access with suburban trains service. But suburban train is NOT popular for airline passengers of Domodedovo. Most of them go from airport to the city by bus. (Maybe because suburban trains go seldom, about 1 per hour). From Bykovo to Moscow the most popular way is suburban train that is much faster than bus. Vnukovo and Sheremetyevo also have rail access but without any passenger service. There were suburban trains to Vnukovo at Soviet times but since 1993 this route was closed.
"There were suburban trains to Vnukovo at Soviet times but since 1993 this route was closed. "
Lack of ridership?
>>"There were suburban trains to Vnukovo at Soviet times but since 1993 this route was closed. "
>Lack of ridership?
Possibly yes. Some years ago trains from Moscow to Domodedovo airport were turned to express, but after several months they were turned back to all-stops local due to lack of ridership from the airport. Now they are used mostly by Domodedovo town residents than passengers of the airport.
There are four Moscow airports:
Sheremetjevo (SVO)
Domodedovo (DME)
Vnukovo (VKO)
Bykovo (BKO)
All of them you need to ride a bus to.
Actually there are 2 Sheremetyevo airports, one is international the other is domestic, they are quite a distance apart.
Arti
Ïåäàíò!
(Yes, that is a real Russian word!)
Oops - obviously you can't post in Cyrillic on Subtalk! I'll transliterate: "Pyedant!"
Which means?
Rather obviously, "pedant".
Picked Russian encoding, and, yes you are right :-)
Arti
Ah, so that's how you can make things display correctly!
Ñïàñèáî!
Or the much easier to type if technically Serbo-Croat:
Ìîëèì!
Thank you. Vnukovo, I believe, is primarily a military transport field. Domodedovo, the one I was referring to earlier, is, I think, the original Moscow airport, and handles mostly domestic flights (though that included a flight schedule to the former USSR states, so those are now international flights). Sheremetyevo Airport is the main international field, the one you and I would fly to on Pan Am in its glory days or Aeroflot from NY (which now operates 767ERs and Ilyushin-96 widebodies equipped with Pratt and Whitney engines).
If I'm wrong on these details let me know.
Sheremetyevo Airport is the main international field, the one you and I would fly to on Pan Am in its glory days or Aeroflot from NY (which now operates 767ERs and Ilyushin-96 widebodies equipped with Pratt and Whitney engines).
Aeroflot uses only 767's on its flights from JFK and other US airports. Delta also has daily nonstop service from JFK, once again using a 767.
Supposedly the least expensive flights from JFK are generally on Finnair via Helsinki.
So no more Ilyushins? Dang...(yes, I'm weird).
If Finnair is still solvent, it must be the only Scandinavian carrier left standing up...
KLM is quite solvent aside of Finnair.
Arti
So Finnair is actually the problem?
>>> KLM is quite solvent <<<
But it is not quite Scandinavian. :-)
Tom
So no more Ilyushins? Dang...(yes, I'm weird).
You could head up to Alaska. A Siberian airline, Magadan Airlines, has a weekly flight from Magadan and Petropavlosk to Anchorage. It usually uses TU-154's but occasionally IL-62's.
With the original Kuznetsov or Soloviev engines?
With the original Kuznetsov or Soloviev engines?
No idea.
Still, I was always curious about flying a Russian jetliner. I'd heard stories of the vibration on board, the rough ride on the landing gear (which are better suited than Western airliners' gear for unimproved airstrips), and, of course, the lousy food.
But I would want to do it - to have the experience.
Plus a place called Petropavlovsk Kamchatskiy is worth going to just for the name!
Petropavlovsk was one of the stops in Tom Leherer's song "Lobachevsky".
It was indeed. Isn't it an interesting comment on the way the world has changed these lat ten years that we can calmly be discussing a regular public airline flight between Alaska and Kamchatka?
Tupelovs and Iylushins are not as reliable as Federovs/Tokarevs/Kalishnikovs. Remember submarine M-249? Great idea
to add liquid oxygen to diesel/electric submarines for long
distance travel underwater. Every flight on every 'Soviet' aircraft
is a flight to remember. EES PRAVDA KOMRADS. CI Peter
You are correct.
Arti
Supposedly the least expensive flights from JFK are generally on Finnair via Helsinki.
But then you have to cross the Finnish line twice.
Ooh!
"The O'Hare train uses neither the State St Subway nor the Loop. "
So pick a station that is on the appropriate line.
"The answer based on both the O'Hare example and Port Authority estimates is comparitively few."
No, it isn't. You still haven't made the appropriate comparison. I showed you something that is basic to Statistics 101. Since I know for a fact that your math background is solid and very advanced, obviously you're not taking this discussion seriously.
"The answer based on both the O'Hare example and Port Authority estimates is comparitively few."
No, it isn't...
What is YOUR estimate of AirTrain's combined turnstile count at Howard Beach and Jamaica? Is this figure significantly greater than the Port Authority's estimate or the current counts at O'Hare? If so, what is your justification?
I showed you something that is basic to Statistics 101
I'm sorry, I missed any reference to statistics in any of your previous posts. Statistics invovle numbers, did you provide any numerical data in those posts?
1,996,516: Parsons/Hillside (rank 187)
2,016,646: Northern Boulevard (186)
2,395,907: Newkirk/Nostrand (162)
2,433,404: Hoyt-Schermerhorn (161)
(2000 annual fare registrations)
Myrtle-Wyckoff had 3,825,543; Prospect Park had 2,299,429.
Thanks for the information.
This shows that the expected usage of the AirTrain does not justify a separate line. The usage is comparitively modest by NYCT standards. If somebody provided $1+ billion for improvements without any strings, an airport link would not be near the top of the list.
"This shows that the expected usage of the AirTrain does not justify a separate line. The usage is comparitively modest by NYCT standards."
Not really, since you don't offer a valid methodology for comparison.
"If somebody provided $1+ billion for improvements without any strings, an airport link would not be near the top of the list."
Fortunately, the PA offered the money within its legal authority to spend it. AirTrain was the most appropriate use for it, and it didn't cost MTA customers anything save for subway station and commuter station improvements which were needed anyway.
What is your turnstile count estimate?
Initially (first few weeks) we may see volumes equal to the PA's estimate. But after that, we'll see increases to, I predict, at least double that volume within the first year if not sooner. After a couple of years, I'd expect to see steady increases, partly because the subway will become progressively more accessible across the board.
Negative factors:
Lower air traffic in general
Lack of ADA compliant stations
Positive factors:
People flying cut-rate air carriers may be more amenable to using transit. (not my original idea; another Subtalker suggested that - I like it. We'll see...)
Unfulfilled Need for employee and air crew transportation. For example, flight attendants have been riding the A train; with a better airport connection, more will do so.
ADA upgrades in progress at various stations. Each new ADA station makes the airport little easier to reach by rail.
The fare right now is a wild card, to me. The PA should examine traffic patterns to evaluate elasticity of demand and can adjust up or down. Not hard to do.
Howard Beach will be more of an employee thing, or for local Brooklyn riders. Jamaica will be more for travelers, esp. business travelers. The PA is planning luggage check-in and ticket sales at Jamaica (and have supported that idea even after 9/11, recognizing that security at the airport is not compromised so long as the bag is x-rayed and "sniffed" prior to being loaded on the aircraft)
But the actual patterns may surprise us...
What is your turnstile count estimate?
Initially (first few weeks) we may see volumes equal to the PA's estimate. But after that, we'll see increases to, I predict, at least double that volume within the first year if not sooner.
Can I assume that you are predicting a combined turnstile count of 4.0 million annually?
Howard Beach will be more of an employee thing, or for local Brooklyn riders. Jamaica will be more for travelers, esp. business travelers.
And what would these levels represent in market penetration (percentage of employees and passengers taking AirTrain)?
The fare right now is a wild card, to me.
The PA has stated that it will be $5 for passengers and $2 for employees. They are obligated to recover operating costs from AirTrain users. Was your estimate based on a different assumption?
Here is a link that I think is helpful....
http://nm-server.jrn.columbia.edu/projects/masters/traininvain/plans/article_01f.html
An interesting article.
Note that the Airline Transport association's REAL objection was the use of transfer fee money, because if that money were to be restricted to airport property, it would directly increase airline profit margins by releasing the airlines from having to spend their own money on terminals and gates.
I have to laugh when I see George Haikalis' work. He's sincere and well-intended, but competence in design was never one of his strong points...
From historical accounts and my own (covert) observations, the LIRR Rockaway ROW appears to need only tree clearing, basic leveling, the usual structural work, and signalling/trackage to make this a viable operation again
It's amazing what has happened to this invaluable line right down the center of Queens. WHy they didn't convert it to subway use, and provide local service to that unserved part of Queens is beyond me:
See here also:
Photos of Abandoned Woodhaven/Rockaway Branch Station
It's mostly political that it has been left to rot.
"It's amazing what has happened to this invaluable line right down the center of Queens. WHy they didn't convert it to subway use, and provide local service to that unserved part of Queens is beyond me: "
That would have been interesting...
Of course, they did convert part of it to subway.
YEs, and luckily they did. There is a provision for the line to enter the IND at 63rd Drive. When they built the IND, they already were thinking about annexing the LIRR Rockaway Branch there. Unfortunately they chose to do it to the Liberty el, while leaving the rest to rot. I don't know if they were planning for the connection to be only at 63rd Drive, or if they planned to connect at both 63rd Drive, and the Liberty El.
Intuitively, the Liberty El was closer to the Rockaways. I would imsgine the move was made to accomplish a goal at a lower assigned budget. They got something, though not everything they wanted. Am I correct in assuming that the line segment between 63rd Drive and the intersection with the Liberty El would have been significantly more expensive than the segment south of the Liberty El?
If it were done today there would be yet another problem: line capacity constraints under Queens Blvd. Ironic, isn't it, to consider than the Queens Blvd. line might not have been able to handle the added volume anyway.
Now, if you add a new line into Queens off the 63rd Street subway tunnel, maybe you have a new chance...
Am I correct in assuming that the line segment between 63rd Drive and the intersection with the Liberty El would have been significantly more expensive than the segment south of the Liberty El?
Of course, yes, it was cheaper. But I feel it was penny wise, pound foolish. At the time they missed the chance to provide local subway service down Central Queens with new stations being built at:
101 Ave (existing Ozone Park station)
Atlantic Ave (convert Woodhaven existing station)
Jamaica Ave-transfer to J (rebuild Brooklyn Manor Station-LIRR's was Wood)
Union Turnpike
Metropolitan Ave (rebuild Parkside Station-LIRR's was wood)
Yellowstone Blvd
Austin Street
If it were done today there would be yet another problem: line capacity constraints under Queens Blvd. Ironic, isn't it, to consider than the Queens Blvd. line might not have been able to handle the added volume anyway
Yes, there would probably be a capacity problem today (it may have been less of a problem in the 50's when the chance first arose)
I propose two fantasy lines, if there is a capacity problem, and if money grew on trees:
Plan A: The stations shown above, with the following configuration:
A new station built on the Rockaway Branch, just south of the Liberty el connection. It would be in the typical express station configuration (two islands). I would extend the V from Queens Blvd, down the old Rockaway Branch, to all the stations mentioned above, and have it terminate at this new station, on the center tracks. The only problem with this would be a loss of service to 67th Ave and 71st on the Queens Line, which may be able to be rectified with some extra R's.
PlanB: Build a terminal station at 63rd Drive, with a transfer to the Queens Blvd 63rd Drive station available. Create a new line "H" which would run sort of like the G route. It would run between the new station at Queens Blvd/63rd Drive and Rockaway Park. It would eliminate the need for the Rockaway S train. Less ideal than a direct Manhattan connection, but certainly better than what we have now. Look at the map, and follow Woodhaven Blvd from Liberty to 63rd Drive, and see how much of Queens would be added to the subway map.
Money doesn't grow on trees but construction bonds do. :-) But Plan B has possibilities! All Rock Park "H" trains go to Midtown direct over the Rockaway ROW, All Far Rock "A"'s go to Liberty Ave. and Lower Manhattan. The transfer point remains Broad Channel.
>>"Plan A: The stations shown above, with the following configuration:
A new station built on the Rockaway Branch, just south of the Liberty el connection. It would be in the typical express station configuration (two islands). I would extend the V from Queens Blvd, down the old Rockaway Branch, to all the stations mentioned above, and have it terminate at this new station, on the center tracks. The only problem with this would be a loss of service to 67th Ave and 71st on the Queens Line, which may be able to be rectified with some extra R's."<<
Just bring the G back to 71 Av to replace G service then bring R's back to 179 St to reduce the likelihood of congestion. Why don't you just extend the V and run local to all times terminating at Rockaway Park, thereby getting rid of the Rockaway shuttle. As for the other line, it could run from Manhattan via a new QB line then turns off at 63 Dr via the Rockaway LIRR ROW utilizing the middle tracks to a redesigned Howard Beach station with two island platforms, terminating in the middle tracks.
Comments. Criticism. Compliments. Holla back.
If train capacity on the Woodhaven/O Park portion (double tracked) were less than 20 tph this might work, as at How Beach there's a reverse bottleneck out to the ocean (4 tracks to 2). When the "E' Train ran out to Far Rock there used to be some delays associated with this, as the "E"'s did not stop at How Beach.
A fabulous post!
If Robert Moses' plot to kill transit funding had not been successful, then perhaps the Rockaway Line as originally envisioned could have been built. Then, the Capital Plans of the 1980's would have turned your fantasy line into reality.
or if they planned to connect at both 63rd Drive, and the Liberty El.
No, absolutly not! There *was* NO PLAN to connect the Fulton Street Line to the Liberty Avenue el, let alone to the Rockaways. IN CASE ANYBODY HAS FORGOTTEN: the line was *supposed* to go to 76th Street (and beyond) albeit, a connection from the Pitkin Avenue line to the Rockaways was considered.
Elias
Hey wasn't the LIRR looking to sell the entire ROW in Queens to the Board of Transportation as early as 1939? I know this is the reason the Far Rock/Rock Park grade separation of the late 30's-early '40s was purposely made transit-friendly. Drive dowh Rock Freeway and look at the structure and this will become clear. It looks the same today as it did 60 years ago. The only new stations on the Peninsula (post-1955) are Mott Ave. (opened 1958) and Rock Park (High Level plats added 1956).
I believe Broad Channel and Howard Beach were also completely rebuilt for the subway use. The rest of the stations were used by LIRR trains as you mentioned.
Incidentally, we always talk about the Abandoned "LIRR" Rockaway Branch. I believe that it is actually NYCT that does own the line between Rego Park and Ozone Park, no longer the LIRR. The LIRR transfered the whole line to the subway in the 50's, although I guess it doesn't really matter because it's all MTA.
Actually the LIRR sold the branch to the City Of New York, as the MTA did not then exist. It was probably grandfathered to the then-new MTA in 1968.
Yes, I think you are correct.
Now I'm confused. The A train IS the Fulton Street subway line. And that train then operates elevated above Liberty Av to Lefferts Blvd. The Rockaway IND plugs into that.
When the bellmouths were built along the Queens Boulevard line, there was no plan to connect to the Liberty Avenue Elevated, but rather to construct a new line along Pitkin Avenue and then out to the Nassau County Lion via Linden Boulevard, as such there could have been no plan to connect the Rockaway ROW to the Liberty Avenue line.
There *was* a thought of connecting it via the yet unbuilt Pitkin Avenue line east of Cross Bay Blvd (at least to the extent that I have seen it drawn as such on a printed map.~ but then even *ancient* map makers hand fantasies too!)
Elias
I do believe the line was abandoned long before somebody tried to build the Queensboro Subway. Even when they did build the subway, they left provision for the recapture of that line.
You only need to consider eastside access if you wanted to reconnect the ROW to the LIRR, for which there really is no point. If you wanted to connect it to the Subway System, then the subway would have to find a way to handle the extra traffic generated.
Elias
I do believe the line was abandoned long before somebody tried to build the Queensboro Subway. Even when they did build the subway, they left provision for the recapture of that line.
The Rockaway Line was in use by the LIRR until June 8th, 1962 from Rego Park to Ozone Park (just north of the Libery el), long after the IND Queens Blvd line was already built and in use.. It abandoned the part currently used by the A train in the 50's.
I am *IMPRESSED* with your knowledge of the ROW!
I have always been interested in the line.
Although it did help that I reread "Change in Ozone Park" about a month ago, which is a must read for anyone interested in the line. Try amazon.com. I don't know if it's still in print, I bought it more than 10 years ago. It was written by Herbert George. It's full of photos from when the A Line part of the line was still used by the LIRR, and great photos of the abandoned part in use.
Wasn't that a good book? I need a new copy. Kids spilled juice (what else?) on a copy I had about four years ago.
1. Nimbyism. That line is very close to the ROW and many houses abutting it have taken part of the ROW to expand their backyards. Yes, it's illegal, but these areas would have to be reclaimed and demolished to re-activate rail service.
2. Structure. Every overpass will probably need replacing, since they're rusting and haven't been well maintained.
3. Cost. The pricetag to just clear the ROW, replace it's overpasses and make it safe to lay new trackage would be astronomical.
4. What line would serve it? The old IND second system plan was to have a branch off the Queens Blvd line. What logical reason would you have for diverting service from the already underseved communities of eastern Queens to Rockaway? The Rockaway line south of Liberty is alreay well served, and activating the rest would only help some communities like Glendale, whose residents have consistently blocked plans to convert the Montaulk LIRR ROW for subway usage.
I agree, that $2 billion dollar waste the PA spenttheir money on most likely won't serve as much people. If the MTA got into using the old LIRR ROW built to subway standards, it would have been far cheaper and more practical. The structure is there, why not just rebuild it already; everything is in place. Basically all you have to do is lay new track down, connect the QB turnoff at Rego Park, upgrade the structure and make other improvements and voila you got a service ready to roll.
Except for one thing... it makes SENSE!:-) Seriously though, I've been reading some of the other responses and everybody makes good points, especially Ron In Bayside. My only other objection to the AirTrain is that it has no track access to other lines in Queens, so its going as far as it will EVER go. If JFK had been made accessible from How Beach using the current "A" Line and Rockaway ROW, there would have been TWO subway routes to Manhattan, one to Midtown, the other to Lower Manhattan. Let the NIMBYs who would directly benefit complain about THAT...
It may eventually be extended as far as LaGuardia, but its non-accessibility to other systems is PLANED, as part of the funding that it receives. Do it this way or do it not at all!
Elias
Why must it be so, if the goal is sensible, efficient rapid transit which accomodated both today's and tomorrow's travel needs. New York City's constantly changing demographic demands this. Separate, nonexpandable systems have been known to be mistakes at least since 1940, when subway unification occurred. Also, to quote a transit author, "The purpose of Rapid Transit is to BE RAPID!" How rapid can your trip be if you must change trains-and carriers-several times during your trip?
Why must it be so, if the goal is sensible, efficient rapid transit which accomodated both today's and tomorrow's travel needs.
AirTrain is being financed by surcharges on airplane tickets, hence the airport-only restriction. It's not meant to be a part of the overall rapid transit system.
I don't mean to be smart, but why is there a five dollar fee to ride it, as well as an airline ticket surcharge? Did this thing actually cost so much that federal funds, ticket surcharges, and a $5 per ride fee cannot cover the costs? All I can figure is that the Federal funds were either non-exsistant or extremely limited.
The $5 fee is assessed only on passengers traveling to or from the Howard Beach and Jamaica terminals. Somebody's gotta pay for the parking lot and interterminal passengers.
I don't think it is in subway standards to connect it to the subway system anyway. I believe there would be a branch that goes to LaGuardia airport possibly in the future.
I believe the AirTrain is built in subway standards (maybe even LIRR standards). It can run subway and (I think LIRR) trains physically, but politically it can not happen.
I don't think AirTrain cars can run on the LIRR because they are not FRA-certified as railroad cars and lack the LIRR's cab signalling and ASC speed control apparatus. However with little modification these cars WILL make clearance on the IND. This is according to a friend of mine who worked on the project for the PA. By the way, he's a railfan, too, and thinks AirTrain should have been part of the IND. How's that for irony?
Linear Induction cars can't run on the IND. They don't meet FRA stadards, and given the way they fell apart after the derailment, I don't even think the TA's.
I know, the cars looked so cheap. I believe that the AirTrain can't run on subway trackage to begin with; I could be wrong though but the special features you mentioned make is difficult to intertie to the subway.
"By the way, he's a railfan, too, and thinks AirTrain should have been part of the IND. How's that for irony?"
Understandable. With enough $$$, the E train could have been extended down the Van Wyck, underground, all the way into the airport. You would have had a couple of subway stations between Jamaica-Van Wyck and the airport. You might have had an Atlanta-style terminal circulator train feeding people cross-platform onto the E train. The circulator could have also served Howard Beach, as it will now.
I do like the route the E train takes now, though. Integrating Jamaica Station into its route was a good idea.
Oh, I'm sorry, you misunderstood. I meant the structure, not the trains. You are right the trains can't run on either the LIRR or the subway, but the structure could support subway or LIRR clearances.
I believe it could support subway clearences but I don't see it ever mixing with the subway and when you talked about it can't happen politically, of course it won't happen politically ;-).
Thanks for the kudos. AAnd I do agree with you here.
Good rail access to JFK could have begun back when it was still Idlewild Airport.
Then came Robert Moses, among other things...
PLEASE don't get me started on Robert Moses. BTW, historically, the original plans for the Van Wyck Expwy. DID call for a rapid transit ROW down the center median. Read "The Airport" by Robert Kaplan, for more on this....and you're welcome.
I agree - my stomach might start turning over.
Air Train only serves a select clientele; a subway into JFK would have served EVERYBODY...even those "shafted woodhaven riders"...
Correct. The funding that created the Air-Train was raised by taxing airline passengers, and as such could not be applied to a general transportation project, but only to a dedicated airport transportation project. In any event, the LIRR ROW would have taken you to MANHATTAN and not to JAMAICA, whcih is what they were trying to develop in the first place.
Elias
(Hey... it *was* their idea, not mine)
Two alternatives always get conflated in these debates:
1) "Why not do a subway extension to JFK?"
Money. As a subway project, it would be MTA's and thereby fall behind East Side Access and Second Avenue in the pecking order. That means twenty years away or more. Say what you will about the PA plan (and it isn't perfect for sure), but at least it will be running later this year (hopefully).
2) "Why not use the old Rockaway?"
NIMBY. It's NOT because the PA couldn't do it with airport funds. The PA system runs AirTrains off of JFK property, above the Van Wyck, and into an LIRR/subway hub at Jamaica. They could have just as easily run AirTrains off of JFK property, along the old Rock, and into an LIRR/subway hub at Woodside. (The old Rock ROW goes west beyond White Pot, all the way to Woodside -- the LIRR has a 6 track ROW through there.) The PA did the former instead of the latter because of community opposition. A huge aerial AirTrain station at the Woodside complex would have also been a flash point, if it had been pursed more seriously.
This is all moot, of course. The decision was made years ago. Something tells me "SubTalk" will forever gripe about this non-subway solution, even if the current approach is a roaring success. Can join "who let them tear down the els?" et al. as a regular complaint for years to come.
My lord... what a huge thread!
This is why I don't like Subtalk's format sometimes; it's hard to keep track of threads like these!
Everyone else here must have summed why it will never happen, but it's a pity it won't come true. This is one of the downsides of Democracy. :)
It IS a huge thread, isn't it? I just wanted to be starting something...(lol). But WOW, I never thought it would generate so many responses!
Keep up the good work!
It IS a huge thread, isn't it? I just wanted to be starting something...(lol). But WOW, I never thought it would generate so many responses!
Good for you! It's a great accomplishment. If I could, I would rehab it with my 2 bare hands! Who cares about anything, I'll jump into the forest and tear those trees apart. Don't take away my ROW! : )
Could I buy the ROW for $1 from the city and run restored R-9s on it? Just a thought...
I think you could... The city isn't doing anything else with it anyway... All you have to do is avoid those ravenous NIMBY's and you should be fine. :)
A little garlic around the neck, perhaps?
Kevin's back in action with a typically attractive page on the Brooklyn area Down Under the Manhattan Bridge Overpass.
Not Kevin's fault in the least, but I'm forming Stop Creating Ridiculous Acronyms Movement.
You'll just take heat from the people at Without Acronym, New Neighborood Isn't Trendy.
Yeah, but I call it Dumbo, not DUMBO, just to tweak 'em
www.forgotten-ny.com
Nevermind stupid acronyms; the outright attempts at renaming neighborhoods is really, really annoying. Since when is Bushwick "east williamsburg"? And how utterly stupid are the trend-iods that move there thinking it's some cool place, only to end up being robbed and living nearby a large trash transfer facility and that toxic mint green colored end of newtown creek?
A sucker is born every minute.
Bushwick and East Williamsburg are two different things. East Williamsburg is the former third ward of the City of Williamsburgh. Just as there is a northside and a southside Williamsburg, there is also an EAST side, which is between Union Avenue and Bushwick Avenue. Parts of this area have absolutely NOTHING in common with either Williamsburg or Bushwick. It deserves its own neighborhood name.
And it isn't a bad, crime-ridden, toxic place either.
yeah, just like how Long Island City deserves a name like "new-ho". (yes, some idiot real estate people really did try to market it as such)
You say e. willyburg, I say bushwick. - where the security guards at the Waste Management facility shoot live ammo at the seagulls & NY&A hauls off 10-20 cars of trash per day...
real estate people will try to repackage anything for a buck in this town, and a sucker is still born every minute...
Again, East Williamsburg and Buswhick are not the same thing. Bushwick is SOUTH of East Williamsburg.
Why don't you just call Greenpoint part of Bushwick, or Astoria part of Long Island City? It would be the same injustice.
Bushwick is south and east of willyburg.
You're entirely missing the point.
real estate people market bushwick as willyburg just to make a buck, and idiot trendoid kids from kansas that move here buy into it and pay an ass & an elbow in rent for it.... now that is injustice.
I agree that marketing actual Bushwick as East Williamsburg is wrong, but there is an East Williamsburg that is separate from either Williamsburg or Bushwick.
I thought that much of the Ridgewood and Bushwick areas were originally called East Williamsburg way back when.
Bushwick is older than Williamsburg. Until 1840, Williamsburgh was part of the town of Bushwick, which dates back to Dutch times. Boswijck in Dutch means Woods Town. Williamsburg was founded early in the 19th Century by Richard M. Woodhull (as in Woodhull Hospital). The hamlet was laid out by Col. Jonathan Williams and was named for Col. Williams, a nephew of Benjamin Franklin.
Williamsburgh was incorporated as a village in 1827, became its own town in 1840 and a city in 1851. Both it and Bushwick were taken over by the City of Brooklyn in 1854. The boundaries of Williamsburgh were the East River, Division Avenue, Broadway, Flushing Avenue, Bushwick Avenue, Woodpoint Road, then a diagonal line, then North 14th Street.
Part of the above is undoubtedly part of the neighborhood of Bushwick, since neighborhoods don't always follow 19th century political boundaries.
Pig, you sure know your Brooklyn stuff better than I do, but when I used to live in Ridgewood, I remember reading about the history, and I could swear that I remember reading that part of Ridgewood was called "East Williamsburg" at one time. I have some of the books somewhere. I don't have time to look now because I am on my way out, but if I have time over the weekend, I will look for it. It may even have been on a map too.
I am pretty sure you are correct. I intended to mention it in my post but forgot. Sorry.
Hi!
I shoot this photo when I visited NY last summer, from Brooklyn Bridge. Because of being a tourist from Japan, I didnft understand why DUMBO and elephants on the advertisement of building. That said gLive, Work & Play in DUMBO.h??? Now I understand what it means. This is an advertisement of the real estate agent, isnft it?
Thank you Paul!
Muneyoshi
DUMBO is the name of the neighborhood, District Under Manhattan Bridge Overpass.
Peace,
ANDEE
I thought it was Down Under Manhattan Bridge Overpass.
Oh, you're going to FIT RIGHT IN here. :)
Just wait until some developer comes up with "Be In Manhattan's Best Officespace" ... Uncle Selkirk needs some sleep. :)
With humor like that me thinks it is time for you to take a nap ;-)
Been doing an all nighter my friend ?
Given what I do, I tend towards the 30 hour days. It's the SUN that's outta sync I tell ya! Wondered why I was so TOASTED when we met at Branford? I'd gotten about 3 hours sleep prior to twirling around to AM shift on da railroad. So I live on that bizarre "work until it's all done, no matter what the script kiddies or Microsuck dish out and then sleep 8 hours for every 16 worked" ... such is life when you'se an Ontapanoor living upstate on "make your OWN job, dammit!" :)
But I think you'll get a kick out of what Unca Joe sent me this morning while I was hunting for nasties to protect our customers from. 3RD RAIL in CONNECTICUT! GLAD I didn't go sleepies, but I'm gonna NOW. Moo.
Well, it's all Joe Bruno's fault.
No, he's all forgiven ...
Joe Bruno Busted!
Joe Bruno Limousine (Hey, guess what's in the trunk?)
Joe Bruno Stadium
From lovely double-wide Rensselaer county ... moo. ('cept I live across the river out of his district in ALBANY county)
Gawd, what a hack!
Ya gotta love Albany International Airport. That means one flight to Canada right?
Kennedy is an International Airport, O’Hare is an International Airport, Newark is an International Airport. Heathrow is an international airport (I have never seen so many 747-400’s lined up).
But Albany-North-Podunk International Airport?! Gimme a break!
John
Hahahaha ... two flights to Canada now ... they actually have FOUR-SEATERS now, with INDIVIDUAL SERVINGS of tuna in-flight ... en-route entertainment is whatever you can pick up on a Watchman TV set outta Plattsburgh with the aerial fully extended.
I was kind ... didn't bother to add links to the "Joe Bruno campground," "Joe Bruno recreational vehicle park" or the "Joe Bruno trapping and shooting range." Some things aren't appropriate for subtalkers. :)
But yeah, they're PROUD in Rochester at the Limousine farm that Joe Bruno upgraded to the MINI-VAN! Woo-hoo! Joey's a HOT DATE!Heh.
Ya gotta love Albany International Airport. That means one flight to Canada right?
We used to joke this exact same way about Harrisburg International Airport! Actually, the designation "international" in airport names has to do with whether or not Customs and Immigration is on premesis.
Ya gotta love Albany International Airport. That means one flight to Canada right?
We used to joke this exact same way about Harrisburg International Airport! Actually, the designation "international" in airport names has to do with whether or not Customs and Immigration is on premesis.
Unsatisfied with mere "international" status, the people in Oklahoma City named their airport (OKC) Will Rogers* World Airport. And then you have Houston; with "international" being too commonplace, the main airport (IAH) is George Bush Intercontinental Airport. At least it really does have many international and intercontinental flights.
* = funny thing about Will Rogers, for a person whose sole connection with aviation was to die in a plane crash, he's got two commercial airports named after him (the other is Wiley Post-Will Rogers Memorial (BRW) in Barrow, Alaska).
...funny thing about Will Rogers, for a person whose sole connection with aviation was to die in a plane crash, he's got two commercial airports named after him (the other is Wiley Post-Will Rogers Memorial (BRW) in Barrow, Alaska).
This just goes to show you that insensitivity abounds in the naming of airports. Just as ironic is naming our National Airport after the president who fired all of the air traffic controllers.
Just as ironic is naming our National Airport after the president who fired all of the air traffic controllers.
Hang on, isn't that a labor relations success? It's better than giving the bastards a huge rise and you get people who are wiling to do the job for the pay offered. We should do that to those unreconstructed w@&kers who constitute our fire brigade over here.
"...labor relations success..." Just as WalMart is a retail "success", thanks to the non-union employees eager to work for slave wages.
Exactly ;-) it makes economic sense, you know...
it makes economic sense, you know...
...And this is the falicy in conservative thinking.
Just becaue it makes "economic sense," doesn't mean it is right or moral. To cite and extreme example, Hitler's subjugating prisoners and concentration camp "inmates" to hard labor in constructing parts for the Nazi war machine made "economic sense" too. (So did African slavery in the U.S. and elsewhere, but another poster already alluded to such).
But I suppose it's all a matter of degree, isn't it? Who gets to decide at what point this disparity in compensation between those who do the work and those who "manage" them becomes immoral? I don't believe it exists solely alongside that which is merely "illegal." We have only to look to Enron, Worldcom, Adelphia Communications, Tyco International -- the list goes on -- to see that this question deserves to be asked.
And since you bring up Wal-Mart, it was not too long ago that it was reported that this shining diamond of a corporation had an unwritten policy of promoting store managers who forced lowly Wal-Mart employees to clock-out and then continue working! Most of the non-union workers were willing to do so, having been brought up in areas of the country where working is thought to be a privilege, where you are respectful of your superiors, and, more importantly, where there are few other job opportunities. In my view, Wal-Mart's exploitation of this situation was immoral. It so happens, it was also illegal in this case. In the case of labor in third world countries, this immoral behavior makes "economic sense" as well, and is often also "legal."
But I suppose it's all a matter of degree, isn't it? Who gets to decide at what point this disparity in compensation between those who do the work and those who "manage" them becomes immoral?
It isn't immoral to have management receive ridiculously high compensation compared to their employees.
If there were stronger unions, these thief-owned and operated companies would have had disgruntled employees with POWER who would not allow their employer to take all that money while they got little or nothing.
The alternative to stronger unions is stronger government who will nationalise things if wasteful businessmen get in their way. Then screw the unions, get loads of immigrants to work for us and let's get back on the road to success!
The government's only purpose is to prevent people from killing each other, and to guard against foreign attack. There are a few other things that would be inefficient without government intervention, but that's that. For the most part, the economy would function better without government intervention, but some government intervention is sometimes neccessary to have a level playing field.
I see government intervention as the lesser of two evils in many cases. The choice between regulation by government and regulation by trade union is a case in point. There was an election in the 1970s when the Conservative Party's campaign slogan was "Who governs Britain?". It is a question that cannot be avoided.
It isn't immoral to have management receive ridiculously high compensation compared to their employees.
I disagree, to an extent.
Take Verizon, which just sacked 3000 or so employees in New York (former New York Telephone employees were surprised to learn that jobs they formerly thought were lay-off-proof, are no longer so in this new world of communications competition), while their executives took home their usual fat compensation packages.
After the firings, a Verizon executive wrote to the New York Times' editor, insisting that equating executive compensation with employee layoffs was unjust. She sang that corporate oldy-but-goody about how they have to shell-out the millions in yearly bonus cash to keep "competitive for top executive talent." I guess those who rule make the rules. When an employee is responsible for losing money, does he get a raise and a bonus? More likely, he's out on the street, even in a "good" year. Why should a C.E.O. be rewarded for poor corporate management?
If you are a corporate executive and your company loses money on your watch such that you have to lay of thousands of workers, or even simply such that you are unable to reward them with a pay-raise or bonus that year, your bonus and pay-rise should be ZERO. Period.
It is immoral for you to feather your nest on the backs of your employees if your own performance was inadequate. This is the same mentality that allowed Enron execs to rape their shareholders, employees, and the entire State of California, apparently without (psychological) guilt.
And before you paint me with a Red brush, let me assert that one should be allowed to make as much money as one can, legally, and that under no circumstances should the government take it upon itself to control, directly, the distribution of our country's wealth. I'm no Karl Marx. If you play by the rules, then more power to you. If your company does well, take the big fat bonus and buy yourself a summer home on the Riviera! If your company does poorly, you suck it up. That seems fair to me. (Note I did not say "equal," but "fair.")
The government should stay out of the boardroom. However, what the government can, and should, do is provide for the health, safety and welfare of those workers unable to benefit from the capitalist machine by virtue of unemployment. (It would be much easier to do this if we eliminated Corporate Welfare and had them pay their fair share of taxes to compensate for when they feel the need to divest themselves of workers.) Yes, there are some bad apples who take advantage of unemployment and welfare benefits. Should this preclude a safety net for those honest, hard-working folks who really want to work, but occasionally find themselves on the short end of the American Dream?
I'm much more comfortable with Sea Beach Fred's homeless guy in San Francisco getting a couple hundred bucks from the government than Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling getting to keep their Florida mansions. What allowed this outrage? California succumbed to the Conservative deregulate-at-all-costs philosophy and provided a shoddy market structure wherein Kenny and Jeffy were able to rob this homeless guy's fellow San Franciscans blind. (Yes, I know Gray Davis is a Democrat, but the idea to deregulate the energy markets and how to do it surely originated somewhere deep in the minds of readers of the National Review.)
And to think ... if only Verizon was willing to provide DSL services instead of using SLIC's, they would be earning MORE than enough money to have retained ALL of those employees. (SLIC's are to be used ONLY for emergency restoration of service after a disaster on a TEMPORARY basis, but better than half the exchanges upstate have had SLICs in place for over a decade - SLICs have such shoddy bandwidth that you can't even get 36k baud through them, much less T-1 or DSL) ...
Self-inflicted wound here. But Verizon *IS* the financial powerhouse behind a certain crooked Senator and his "Change NY" buddies ...
I don't believe that the example that you provided about Verizon is immoral. The executives were in charge and thus thought only about themselves. Unfortunately not enough people feel that they can band together to fight against this kind of injustice. Verizon feels that it can pull this off because there will be no retribution. Unions are needed to bring that kind of retribution about.
I'm not going to paint you with a red brush. I pretty much agree with you that unemployment benefits from the government are necessary with an economic system that pretty much requires that there be unemployment in order to maintain stability.
I believe in a taxation structure that charges the wealthy a higher percentage of their income than the less well off. Rich people can still keep the rest of their money and enjoy the luxuries that they earn. I am not in favor of the new Bush tax cut plan. The New York Post had an article about "families" that would benefit from the tax cut, they were all basically RICH couples.
I do not believe that the rich should be taxed because I somehow resent the rich, I would love to pay the extra taxes that I advocate for the rich. :-)
I'm much more comfortable with Sea Beach Fred's homeless guy in San Francisco getting a couple hundred bucks from the government than Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling getting to keep their Florida mansions.
Mansions notwithstanding, Lay and Skilling may yet find themselves in prison. The wheels of justice can turn slowly, but they do turn. Should that come to pass, Kenny and Jeff may find themselves re-living Ed Norton's shower room scene in American History X. Ouch!
...And this is the falicy in conservative thinking.
I disagree. I see the point as being more its failure to differentiate between lining unionised labour's pockets and real spending on services.
You must remember that when Britain was at its most successful unions were illegal on penalty of being transported to Australia.
Who gets to decide at what point this disparity in compensation between those who do the work and those who "manage" them becomes immoral?
Managers work too. Paying them above the correct rate is equally damaging. How do you think all these maintenance contractors have manaed to screw our railways out of the little investment our government has given them? Nationalise the b@stards, but screw the unions! If we run out of willing cheap labour, let the Albanians and Afghans in to do the work for us!
I don't believe it exists solely alongside that which is merely "illegal."
Of course immoral's not the same as illegal. By making things immoral you set up petty things which people will feel bad about doing so they won't commit real crimes. Where morality becomes dangerous is when people think it is moral to do things which are illegal, which is the point of getting them as far out of your country as possible.
it was not too long ago that it was reported that this shining diamond of a corporation had an unwritten policy of promoting store managers who forced lowly Wal-Mart employees to clock-out and then continue working!
Nothing wrong with that. The goons who clocked out and continued working didn't resign, so it's obviously possible to employ someone like that. You could go one better. Have this thing where you have to follow orders whenever they are given - ie being on call 24/7 - or you are sent to gaol for mutiny, but at a fixed rate of about $18,000 per annum. Hang on - that already exists - it's called an army.
Most of the non-union workers were willing to do so, having been brought up in areas of the country where working is thought to be a privilege, where you are respectful of your superiors, and, more importantly, where there are few other job opportunities.
Ie a situation conductive to growth.
In my view, Wal-Mart's exploitation of this situation was immoral.
Fuck morals, but don't tell the employees that.
It so happens, it was also illegal in this case.
That just shows there is too much labourite legislaion laying around.
Anyway, if a tree falls and nobody hears it, does it make a sound? In other words, if someone does something illegal and the authorities don't find out, is it a crime? It's certainly never recorded in the statistics as a crime.
In the case of labor in third world countries, this immoral behavior makes "economic sense" as well, and is often also "legal."
Which is why colonialism is a great idea. You buy out the third world country's management and you get the profits...
>>> Just as ironic is naming our National Airport after the president who fired all of the air traffic controllers. <<<
There was no irony intended. It was the Republican equivalent of placing a horse's head in the bed where union leaders were sleeping. Or don't you remember the days of the Contract on America?
Tom
Actually, the Albany airport was referred to by a now deceased local weatherman as the "Albany International Jetplex" ... always liked THAT name. But it's commonly known as "The Joe" owing to that big bronze bust that you have to stare at while having your shoes sniffed by snorkel the wonderdog. :)
At the time, all we had was turbo props. The bust is there to celebrate the shakedown of several airlines to bring in jets. They refused, but NYS taxpayers PAY the airlines to run the jets now as a result of all that chuckling up here.
For a bit of amusement I tried to see how the airlines would try and get from Birmingham International Airport (BHX) to Albany International Airport (ABY).
British Airways claimed that Albany didn't exist.
Expedia offered me:
£427.20 Air France and Delta, changing at Roissy (CDG) and Atlanta (ATL)
£448.00 Aer Lingus and Delta, changing at Dublin (DUB) and Atlanta (ATL)
£458.70 KLM and Delta, changing at Amsterdam (AMS) and Atlanta (ATL)
£477.70 Lufthansa and Delta, changing at Frankfurt (FRA) and Atlanta (ATL)
I then went to Delta's website. Amazingly they had heard of Birmingham International Airport. They offered me:
Delta all the way, changing at Brussels (BRU) and Atlanta (ATL).
I then went back to Expedia and typed in BHX and NYC. There is one direct flight a day, Continental to Newark. I suppose that shows that BHX is a real international airport, even though it's only got one transatlantic flight. As for Albany, can you go anywhere but Atlanta?
Birmingham has a couple of transatlantic flights (as do Manchester and Glasgow), but that’s not the reason there for the “International” designation. How many flights are there to European cities daily? I would also guess that the median plane size is a 737.
Albany International Airport shows a bunch of flights, most of which are on commuter planes, to lots of North East US destinations. There was one flight to Ottawa. Looking at the flight numbers (except for a Delta flight, all >1000), I would be surprised if Albany gets more than two big jets per day.
Selkirk: when the put up the bust for Joe B, did they actually do anything useful, like lengthening a runway, or installing jet ways?
John
How many flights are there to European cities daily?
It's something like 4 a day to Roissy, 2 to Fiumicino and there are some to Prague, Brussels, Frankfurt/Main, Amsterdam and Barcelona-Prat too. Dublin, I suppose, also counts as an international destination, especially as they have funny money now.
The irritating thing is that there are NO flights to Athens Eleftherios Venizelos Airport at all - you have to change at Roissy and spend huge amounts of money or have a nice train ride down to Heathrow (a real international airport).
I would also guess that the median plane size is a 737.
I'm no plane buff but I think you're right. They may use smaller ones on the Irish routes, but I've never been to Ireland, nor have any intention of going there. Certainly all the planes I've ever used out of Birmingham have been pretty large.
most of which are on commuter planes
Who would commute by plane anyway? Isn't it rather expensive? Heh - at that rate I could commute to Paris :-D - just give me £200 a day.
most of which are on commuter planes: Americanese for ~6-20-seater planes, almost always propellor driven used for short (<1 hour) duration flights. Think of a London-Birmingham flight.
Such is the dire state of American railways that these flights exist!
John
PS: When did they build a new Athens airport? Last time I was there ~1990, they only had Ellinikon. Is that now back to being purely military?
Think of a London-Birmingham flight.
Doesn't exist, but they will sell you a London-Birmingham air ticket. The one catch is that you have to change at Glasgow and consequently it takes longer than Virgin's pisspoor train service!
Such is the dire state of American railways that these flights exist!
Doesn't say much for the WCML that you can fly Heathrow to Glasgow. Says even less for Midland Mainline that you can fly from London City to Sheffield.
When did they build a new Athens airport?
It was some time mid-90s. It's a long way out of the city up in the mountains. Last time my archaeology tutor was out there, it snowed and all the planes were grounded.
1990, they only had Ellinikon.
I have fond memories of that place where you arrived and walked down the steps presidential style onto the tarmac and got onto a less than presidential style bus to possibly the worst international terminal building in the civilised world. It was appalling, but it was great!
I don't know what it's used for now, but it may well have reverted to the military.
Yeah, Joey shook down two airlines that left to at least run ONE jet into the "Jetplex" ... his BIG "praise" is bringing in Southwest Airlines, and giving them taxpayer gelt to fly ONLY RJ's (Regional Jets) into here. The deal involved Bombardier (who makes the jets) and a certain transit authority, but then Joe's off topic, the Bombardier dealings are kinda off topic. Bombardier and Bruno have nothing to do with subways. :)
his BIG "praise" is bringing in Southwest Airlines, and giving them taxpayer gelt to fly ONLY RJ's (Regional Jets) into here.
??????
Southwest doesn't use RJ's.
Maybe they're somebody else's then, but they ARE Bombardiers. Please bear with me, I just don't care about flying - if the train doesn't go there, I don't. But here's what we have listed down below, and there's LOTS of RJ's that fly over here ...
Major
Carrier/Commuter Airline Service
Carrier
Jet Airline Service
Non-Stop
Service
One-Stop,
Same Plane Service
American
Eagle
Chicago (ORD)
Continental
Express
Cleveland
(CLE)
NY-Newark (EWR)
Columbus
(CMH)
Minneapolis (MSP)
St. Louis (STL)
Delta
Atlanta (ATL)
Cincinnati (CVG)
Colorado
Springs (COS)
Delta Connection
- Atlantic Coast
Cincinnati
(CVG)
Delta Connection/Commair
Cincinnati
(CVG)
Northwest
Detroit (DTW)
Minneapolis (MSP)
Houston (IAH)
Nashville (BNA)
St. Louis (STL)
Southwest
Baltimore
(BWI)
Las Vegas (LAS)
Orlando (MCO)
Austin (AUS)
Chicago-Midway (MDW)
Louisville (SDF)
Nashville (BNA)
Norfolk (ORF)
Orlando (MCO)
Reno (RNO)
United Express
- Atlantic Coast
Indianopils
(IND)
Kansas City (MCI)
Milwaukee (MKE)
Norfolk (ORF)
Sarasots (SRQ)
Tampa (TPA)
West Palm Beach (PBI)
Commuter
Airline Service
Carrier
Non-Stop
Service
One-Stop,
Same Plane Service
Air Canada
Toronto (YYZ)
American
Eagle
NY - JF Kennedy
(JFK)
Continental
Connection
- Commutair
Allentown/Bethlehem
(ABE)
Bangor (BGR)
Boston (BOS)
Buffalo (BUF)
Burlington (BTV)
Harrisburg (MDT)
Hartford (MDT)
Islip (ISP)
Manchester (MHT)
Montreal (YUL)
Portland (PWM)
Providence (PVD)
Rochester (ROC)
Saranac Lake (SLK)
Syracuse (SYR)
Westchester (HPN)
Plattsburgh (PLB)
Boston (BOS)
Islip (ISP)
Lebanon (LEB)
NY - LaGuardia (LGA)
I would say that the Delta flight(s) to ATL, the Northwest flights to DTW and MSP, all the Southwest flights and the United flight(s) to ORD are mainline service with "regular" jets. Possibly the USAirways flight(s) to CLT and Air Canada to YYZ. Everything else uses RJ's or props.
Sorry I don't follow the airlines too closely. Only thing I can tell you is that up until Joe went for his bust, everything was a prop or turbo prop Trans-Dogpatch puddle jumper. The STATE is SUBSIDIZING jets now for "prestige" ... many fly empty and fly ONLY because the state pays for them to come in and leave for "prestige" ... but that's why Joey got his bust. Mind ya, the new building is pretty and all, but this is Podunk fer krissakes. Many more people use the train.
I then went back to Expedia and typed in BHX and NYC. There is one direct flight a day, Continental to Newark. I suppose that shows that BHX is a real international airport, even though it's only got one transatlantic flight.
I believe Birmingham also has some flights to the Middle East. Pakistan International's flight from JFK to Karachi stops there, at least it used to, it may have switched to MAN.
it may have switched to MAN.
That wouldn't surprise me! It seems that Birmingham has been getting the shaft in favour of Manchester for years!
PAKISTAN INTERNATIONAL -- I DON'T THINK SO
Pakistan International Airlines flies four times weekly to Islamabad (direct flights), and twice to Karachi (with a stop in Istanbul).
Why do you find this surprising? Birmingham (England) has a large Pakistani population. Obviously enough to support the traffic.
John
Birmingham (England) has a large Pakistani population.
Very large. There are entire areas of the city where practically everyone is of Pakistani descent and most of the rest are Bangladeshi. Otherwise, there are large Indian, West Indian, Kenyan and Ugandan minorities. Birmingham is one of the least white cities in Britain, which is saying something seeing as it's got Sutton Coldfield (very rich, very white) tacked onto it.
I haven't got the exact numbers, but the population of Birmingham is in the region of 1,000,000, of which about 300,000 of which are from ethnic minorities, 150,000 of which are Pakistani, making them the second largest ethnic group after White British.
(And no, this doesn't mean that everyone's in league with the Iraqis, even though two of the men held at Guantanamo Bay for fighting for the Taleban are from nearby Tipton and in the North of the city is a mosque called "the Saddam Hussein Mosque".)
Birmingham is one of the least white cities in Britain ... I haven't got the exact numbers, but the population of Birmingham is in the region of 1,000,000, of which about 300,000 of which are from ethnic minorities
Talk about perspectives ... if there were a city in the United States with a population of 1,000,000, and 300,000 of them were from ethnic minorities, it would be one of the most white cities in the nation.
Yes, but you will find in both pockets of high and low ethnic concentration.
I think I know where you went wrong to ABY ... you needed to check the schedules for dirigibles and autogyros ... See why AMTRAK is so important around here? :)
Somebody really needs to assassinate this bastard.
No.
They just need to vote him out of office.
One can only hope that next time around, the Electorate of New York will see through the “Bread and Circuses” mentality of the political candidates.
He's run absolutely UNOPPOSED the last two election cycles. Even the IRAQIS got to vote "yes" or "I wanna die" for Saddam. :(
And I assume you realize that Dumbo is the name of an old Walt Disney animated movie about an elephant.
Funny you should ask...
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SCENES/DUMBO/dumbo.html
DUMBO is the name of the neighborhood, Down Under the Manhattan Bridge Overpass. Maybe they put the elephants in "honor" of the Disney character ;-).
There are elephants on the building, but are there elephants in the room?
I've thought that the elephant in the room expression is funny because the thought of an elephant standing in a room is HILLARIOUS
I'M BRIAN FELLOW!
I'm just wondering, will this line ever even touch with the other two LRT lines? It seems kind of wierd to me, having three light rail lines, and yet to move equipment from one line to another, you need a truck (alright so theres a connection between the Green and Blue lines, but thats it, no green trains run to metro center). When the Gold Line comes in, it will be completely separated from the Blue and Green Lines, although I think I once saw one map which showwed a connection as possible.
A few more questions:
-Will the Gold Line be a subway at Union Station, or will it be on the surface?
-Will the Gold Line be High Platform like all the other LRT lines? It would seem that LA's decision on this is odd. Their use of High Platforms only cars precludes the possibility of street running as seen with Trolleys, but it speeds loading at very crowded stations. I'm assuming that the Gold Line will follow suit, so as to be compatible with the Blue and Green. However, had the Blue line been built some 5 years later (I'm not even sure when it was built, I know I was out there then, but never rode it, I know Speed shows the Green Line ROW in the middle of I-105), it would be interesting to see if they would go all high floor like now, all low floor, or some kind of high floor equipment with traps.
-If the Gold line equipment is compatible with the Green and Blue line equipment, then will LAMTA begin swapping cars between the three routes? Will the gold line end up with old Blue line cars while Blue line passengers are treated to new Gold Line cars mixed in with their older equipment? Also, does anybody know the maker and designations of those trains?
-Can you get from the Green Line to the Airport? And if not the what the heck is wrong with the LAMTA? They have a line that runs down the 105 to El Segundo, and the Have not yet figured out that they happen to be close to the airport! It's unbelievable that, with all the focus that the NYMTA and PANJNY has put on getting new york's airports service, LAMTA has quietly ignored it's line running right to the airport!
Thanks
[Can you get from the Green Line to the Airport? And if not the what the heck is wrong with the LAMTA?]
Yes: Take the Green Line to the fittingly-named Aviation Blvd Station, then transfer to the free "G" shuttle bus to any terminal. It's tortured, but doable.
BTW, the Green Line WAS built with an allowance for a branch into the airport. AFAIK those plans are doomed to sit on a shelf somewhere, especially after September 2001.
I thought the Green Line never made it to LAX because the airport thought it would lose parking money if there were a convenient rail link to the airport. Is that at all true?
Mark
While that hasn't been publicized, I'm sure it is a very good reason.
Other reasons included "the trains' lights will confuse the airplane pilots on approach to LAX" (The tracks would have run at the east end of Runway 25R/25L, right where the AT&SF ran since gawd knows when). (Solution: build a wall on either side of the tracks. If the damn airplane is going to land short of the runway and crash, it's gonna hit the runway lights if the wall isn't there anyway.)
They're also ignoring that train lights don't seem to bother the aircraft at airports in Atlanta, Philadelphia, St. Louis, and Chicago.
For that matter, what about all the lights on the roads and freeways near LAX?!
Mark
I seem to recall it was claimed that the electricity in the catenary would interfere with an airplane's electronic guidance system. This was another "reason" for denying Green Line access to the airport.
The Baltimore Light Rail runs right into BWI Airport with 750 DC in the trolley. No aircraft problems have ever been reported, despite the fact that the line crosses THREE approach paths.
Sounds like more "we don't want no stinking transit in our wonderful airport" in Los Angeles.
i got al lot of pics at the airport station whith the break-away
so called ( not finished ) .....etc...
where the green line was supposed to go to da airport !!
hold your breath ...
>>> I'm just wondering, will this line ever even touch with the other two LRT lines? <<<
Not in the foreseeable future. The Gold Line is being built on the cheap using existing ROW where possible. It goes to Union Station which is at the north end of downtown. The Blue Line enters downtown from the south and ends underground almost a mile south of Union Station.
>>> Will the Gold Line be a subway at Union Station, or will it be on the surface? <<<
There is an elevated section which brings the Gold Line to Union Station. There are plenty of surface platforms at Union Station, so I assume one of them will be converted into a terminal for the Gold Line.
>>> Will the Gold Line be High Platform like all the other LRT lines? <<<
The Gold Line will be high Platform, like the Blue Line which does have street running in both Los Angeles and Long Beach with center platforms.
>>> If the Gold line equipment is compatible with the Green and Blue line equipment, then will LAMTA begin swapping cars between the three routes? <<<
There has been swapping between the Blue and Green Lines, but since the Gold Line will be physically remote from the other two, swapping with the Gold Line would be very unusual.
Can you get from the Green Line to the Airport?
Yes there is a free shuttle bus running from the Green Line to the Airport. It is used mostly by airport workers rather than passengers. Most Angelinos flying from LAX who do not drive or have someone drop them off at the airport take a limousine service from home. Business travelers arriving at LAX rent cars, tourists take hotel buses and limos. The Green line is not a convenient way to go to downtown L.A. from the airport. Local bus service would be more convenient and quicker.
Tom
>>> Will the Gold Line be a subway at Union Station, or will it be on the surface? <<<
<at Union Station, so I assume one of them will be converted into a terminal for the Gold Line. >>
The Gold Line will occupy the space where tracks 1 and 2 used to be on the Union Station platform level (tracks 3-8 I think are used for Metrolink, all other tracks are used by Amtrak)
What about the old sealed up underground line in that area? Does/will any of these new lines use that?
What's going on with that new Red Car line that was supposed to open up around San Pedro?
"Old sealed up car line" ??
You must be referring to the former Pacific Electric "subway" that ran from Glendale/Beverly Blvds. into downtown at 5th & Hill.
Most of the tunnel is still there, but the Union Bank Building and the Bonaventure Hotel were built after its abandonment, and the foundations/parking garages of those buildings were built right THROUGH the tunnel!
In other words, it's not continuous any more. It wouldn't serve any purpose.
I never knew exactly where the line ran, I just heard there was some old station or something. They should use as much of it as they can for one of the new lines. Just build around the Bonaventure if possible. Wouldn't it be interesting if LA had an old subway station like NY and other older systems?
>>http://www.erha.org/pewhs.htm<<
link to website concernng the PE Tunnel
Great information.
Hill St. between 4th and 5th would place it adjacent to the Red Line Pershing Sq. station. They should have at least incorporated it into the new subway station.
I think they should still open as much as they can, and perhaps dig out the filled in section to use as a historic railway, like what they are doing on Brooklyn's waterfront. Perhaps a shuttle serving the Bonaventure.
>>> Hill St. between 4th and 5th would place it adjacent to the Red Line Pershing Sq. station. They should have at least incorporated it into the new subway station. I think they should still open as much as they can, and perhaps dig out the filled in section to use as a historic railway, like what they are doing on Brooklyn's waterfront. Perhaps a shuttle serving the Bonaventure. <<<
The thought is nice but completely impractical. There is nothing left of the old Subway Building terminal that could be incorporated into the Red Line station. The Red Line is a no nonsense people moving subway designed to be run with as few personnel as possible. There are no station agents, turnstiles, drinking fountains or rest rooms. The architecture is open without nooks and crannies for security purposes. Even though the Subway Building is immediately adjacent to the new station, the PE line ran perpendicular to Hill Street, and there was a 500'+ walk through the building to get to the basement terminal. The terminal itself was very utilitarian without art work. The tunnel from the Subway Building leads only to a dead end, without any stations or places for stations. Since the purpose was to burrow under Bunker Hill, it is a deep tunnel, not cut and cover
New construction on Bunker Hill has gone through the filled in portions of the tunnel. At the dead end portion there is a concrete wall. The Subway Building has fallen on hard times and was closed completely for quite awhile. There is talk of converting the building into condominiums as has been done with several older downtown office buildings, but at the moment there is no shortage of housing, and some of the other conversions are still looking for buyers. For tourists, Angels' Flight (if it ever reopens) is ½ block away.
Tom
This comment from the website: "... the final touches on the terminal; placing tile, terra cotta and marble." gave me the impression that the old station was ornate. Plus what I used to hear about it gave me that impression as well.
So if it can't be apart of the new subway, than the dead end section could still be used as a museum, and if the concrete wall at the end is apart of the Bonaventure, then as I said, it could be a nice little ride for its guests. If the terminal building is empty or being converted, now would be the ideal time to do something like that.
>>> the final touches on the terminal; placing tile, terra cotta and marble." gave me the impression that the old station was ornate. Plus what I used to hear about it gave me that impression as well. <<<
I saw the interior of the station on a local TV program about it. There was nothing there except the old tower. I think the tile, terra cotta and marble was in the Subway Building Arcade leading to the station. The old waiting rooms were just dusty empty rooms, no seats, or anything left there.
>>> the dead end section could still be used as a museum <<<
A museum containing what? The PE no longer exists and there is no access to the area larger than a double doorway. This is at the back of an unused building in an area of downtown that has not yet seen redevelopment. Who would pay the expenses of a museum at that location?
>>> if the concrete wall at the end is apart of the Bonaventure, then as I said, it could be a nice little ride for its guests <<<
The Bonaventure is on the other side of Bunker Hill, and there are skyscrapers between the terminal and the hotel. These are what are blocking the tunnel. But even assuming the tunnel could be opened, how many hotel visitors would want to ride a subterranean rail line to an empty building four blocks away? That is an idea only a dedicated rail fan would consider.
Tom
museum containing what? The PE no longer exists and there is no access to the area larger than a double doorway. This is at the back of an unused building in an area of downtown that has not yet seen redevelopment. Who would pay the expenses of a museum at that location?
But even assuming the tunnel could be opened, how many hotel visitors would want to ride a subterranean rail line to an empty building four blocks away?
What I said assumed that the terminal building would be redeveloped. And it would be nice access to the Red Line for them.
Like any other transit museum, it could contain transportation memorabilia. It could also be used for filming, etc.
(I wonder if this was one of the tunnels that was supposedly filled with lava in that movie about a volcano erupting in the middle of LA)
If you ever saw the movie MacArthur with Gregory Peck, the entrance to the old PE subway line was used as the entrance to the Corriggidor Tunnel
The old tunnel entrance is also in the movie "Colors".
>>> the entrance to the old PE subway line was used as the entrance to the Corriggidor Tunnel <<<
I drove by during the filming, and even though I did not know what film was being shot, I recognized the set as a representation of the Corregidor Tunnel.
Tom
The San Pedro Red Car line has been delayed....info I got from an inside source says it has something to do with the Federal Railroad Administraion.
....you consider union station a part of downtown los angeles......
......??..............
i sure do not ...!
>> downtown los angeles.<<
OXYMORON
ever seen union station in person ?
yes, Many Many times, Remember I lived in LA from 1958-1994, used Metro Link as recently as Xmas 2000 with Slow Beach Fred your neighbor, and Union Station is Downtown LA
If it is not in downtown LA where is it. South Pasadena or Arcadia?
here are some links one to my yahoo web page another the city page
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GoldLinePasadenaLosAngelesMTA/
here is the other highlight it paste it into your URL
http://www.la-pasblueline.org/
also there is some plan to build a light rail, exposition area
To answer your questions:
1. The Gold Lien will be a open air surface station at Los Angeles Union Station, occupying what was tracks 1 and 2 of the station complex.
2. All the stations are high=platforms. This includes street-running portions of the Blue Line (i.e. Washington Blvd.in Los Angeles; Long Beach Blvd., First Street and Pacific Avenue in Long Beach) where the stations themselves are set in a separated street median. (The Blue Line was built in the late 1980's and opened in July, 1990.)
3. The cars are compatible from the Blue, Green and Gold Lines. I'm not sure if the stock assigned to the Gold Line will ever be swapped with the other two lines as there is no physical connection. It would involve hauling cars via freight railroads to do so.
The Green Line was originally operated with cars 154-168, which were built to Blue Line specifications (and painted in the original Blue Line colors). Once the newer cars (with ATO systems built in) were delivered, the 154-168 went to the Blue Line as they are now running some three-car trains there.
The Green, Blue Lines' equipment was all built by Nippon-Sharyo (Sumitomo). I'm not sure of the model designations...and I've only seen the Gold Line stuff in photos, so I assume it was also built by N-S as it appears to be the same stock as on the Green Line.
4. Yes, you CAN get from the Green Line to the airport, disembark from the train at Aviation (Blvd.) station, go downstairs and take the free "G" LAX Shuttle bus.
Just west of this station, you can see the already-constructed "wye" trackway, minus rails, for the intended branch off the line to LAX and possibly to Santa Monica. It's doubtful this will ever get built, though.
The equipment now being used on the Green Line (and soon on the Gold Line) is built by Siemens-Duewag, designated "P2000" I think
U - R right !!
the gold line was supposed to direct link with the long beach blue
line .......... ( same type of lrv rolling stock ) .........
however we believe the mta taj majal building ......
................was more important to them !!....( la mta )...
the blue and green lines have connecting intersecting crossovers
the connection is at the rosa parks center station (S)
it is where the I 105 freeway runs also ( green line ) ...
the red line " subway 2 nowhere " is its own failed system
the reason why we say this here is because the red line should have
used the same rolling stock used on the blue , green & gold lines !
the "f" up the whole system here ...
except for the blue line ....
we will wait & see how the gold line will actually do here only
going to union station and NOT downtown los angeles .....
>>>>>>>>>.whew !!!
You keep saying the Red Line to Nowhere, Don t tell me Hollywood Universal City and No Hollywood are no where. There are more people there then in Pasadena, which has 1 event a year and try to find a place to park.
They were going to build a light rail connecting along the old SP Van Nuys branch out to the West Valley, but that died because of the NIMBYS.(that was the route of the old PE Van Nuys and Canoga Pk Lines)
you do not remember the first thing it was called ??
" the los angeles red line the subway 2 nowhere " .....lol...!!
plus the fight to build it compatible with the green / blue line ..
& run it along side the freeways and get it out of the ground ??
& the homes / businesses / lives lost to the construction alone?
& dont forget the MTA TAJ MAJAL " billion dollar building " ???
gee some how i remember like it was today !!
.......lol !!!!!!!!
How about the Gold Line the Trolley to no where? What is in Pasadena, The Rosebowl which it will not come near to or the Norton Simon Museum, which will be a mile away.
Well the Gold Line will come in handy for getting to the Tournament of Roses parade (I think there is a stop a couple blocks south of Colorado Blvd).
Story here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2619829.stm
(Yes, the Brighton Line, the real one.)
Yeah, you made us look, and my heart skip a beat when I still thought it was "our" Brighton Line.....
(Yeah, you made us look, and my heart skip a beat when I still thought it was "our" Brighton Line.....)
I think British James couldn't resist the urge to show up how many of our names are knockoffs. What I am doing in "Windsor Terrace" next to "Kensignton" anyway? Thank God for the Indians, or all our names would be knockoffs.
Because people from India are more creative than people from Britain, or are you talking about Native Americans?
people from India are more creative than people from Britain
That's definitely true. There's a big problem in certain parts of the UK with Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi people getting out of paying speeding fines because when asked who was driving the car they say "my uncle" and when asked where he is the answer is "gone back to the Maharashtra/Gujurat/Kashmir/etc"...
I once tried to find station names in common between the NYC Subway ans the London Underground, and I could only come up with Kew Gardens. (Brighton, UK, isn't a tube station, and anyway it isn't called Brighton Beach.) Can anyone find any more?
Well, the spelling is off. But on the LIRR, the stations of Hempstead and West Hempstead and almost replicated on the London Underground as Hampstead(Northern Line) and West Hampstead (Jubilee Line).
Bill "Newkirk"
The closest I've come is Broad St (J/M/Z) and Broad St (former terminal of the NLL, closed some time in the late 80's).
Otherwise Essex St (J/M/Z) and Essex Rd (Northern City), Broadway (LIRR) and Ealing Broadway (Central, District, BR(W)).
The London Underground headquarters offices are at 55 Broadway, and sit on top of a station - but the station's called St James's Park. I've often thought it would be fun if it were called Broadway.....
It's certainly one of the hardest stations to find from the surface! I bet no-one would notice if the name were chnaged to Broadway!
"Broadway (LIRR)"
Why not Broadway (G) and Broadway (N & W, Astoria line)?
Because I forgot about them! :-D
Our Brighton line probably wouldn't close for a derailment -- trains would bypass the blockage on the express track.
Not necessarily. It depends on how severe the derailment is (one wouldn't want to foul an adjacent track, would one?), whether workers need to access the stricken train from an adjacent track, and whether power has to be cut.
David
Of course. I'm just being a bit facetious, playing on the flexibility afforded by a four-track line.
And what if it happened on the express track?[lets hope a derailment doesn't happen anywhere in the forseeable future]. You would probably have to institute emergency shuttle buses to get passengers where they need to go.
I doubt a train would have derailed on the express track today, since there was no express service. If something did derail there, run everything around it on the local -- where everything should be until tomorrow morning, anyway.
A blockage on the express track is less disruptive than a blockage on the local track.
Actually there are two other tracks on a slightly different alignment on that section (one set were built by the London Brighton and South Coast, the other by the South Eastern and Chatham - don't ask me which is which - those companies duplicated eachother a lot and because of the capacity needed on the Southern Region much of the duplication is still around). The only people totally screwed are those at the local stations between Redhill and Purley who have got a shuttle bus and half an hour stuck on the journey times. Redhill to London tickets are being accepted on Connex changing at Tonbridge.
Latest report on the Brighton (England) line - this morning (Friday 3 January) Thameslink services from Bedford were running their normal frequency to Brighton, so I guess the line is cleared and re-opened now.
I spoke too soon. Actually the line will not reopen fully until Monday.
I know this is in really bad taste, but in a way it would be cool if the Brighton Line had been closed completely - it would give a chance to ride a really strange diversion - Brighton to London via Horsham and Epsom - that would be precariously close to it running into Waterloo! I could just about imagine the faces of the Brightonians at the announcement "the next stop is Ewell West"!
If it was a catastrophic derailment, it would. In Greller's book, there's a pic of a standard which suffered a major derailment just south of Ocean Parkway. One car landed almost perpendicular to 3 of the tracks (at this time, the tracks leading to the lower level at W8th from the Brighton Line were still in place). I'm positive that closed the line for a while, at least south of BB.
Looks like they still run those Mark-1, slam-door EMU's.
Yes, he derailed train was a slam-door one (I saw it on the BBC TV news). Not all of the trains on the London-Brighton line are slam-door, though; newer trains run there too.
Incidentally the line isn't completely blocked; the landslip is on the Quarry Line which bypasses Redhill, and a reduced London-Brighton service is running via Redhill station. (You could think of the Quarry Line as the express tracks and the Redhill line as the local tracks.)
They're great aren't they? I love the way you can open the door before the train's completely stopped and leap out onto the platform... I hate waiting for the conductor to release the doors on newer trains... all that safety balls grrrr goddammit... And what's with these trains without headcodes? I mean you can spot "18" a mile off and know it's a Chessington train and can rest assured it's not going to do something awful and have you end up in Esher or somewhere equally dire. Now you have to be able to read signs in much smaller writing... Much though I hate the Southern Region, I do love it in a way...
For some reason, they remind me of LIRR's arch roof MP-54's. It must be the almost identical length, height, arch roof, Westinghouse controller.
Love to see one of them shooting out to Babylon (with no passengers). Could you imagine what some idiot passengers would do here with slam doors at 80 MPH ?
Could you imagine what some idiot passengers would do here with slam doors at 80 MPH ?
Sadly, yes. You should've seen University Station in Birmingham in the rush hours when the slam door stock was still in service :-D
Does anyone here remember the R-44 (D) that derailed on the Brighton Line (NYCT) about twenty one years ago ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I heard about it, stuck truck if I remember right ... BTW, after MONTHS and MONTHS of insane workload, had a sorta day off New Years EVE and sat and looked at Heypaul's tape of our outing last Kissmoose, you and the sacred rollsign. :)
Been too busy to have the time, but my most EXTREME gratitude for not only showing up last Kissmoose, but also at Branford for the Arnine trip. Just wanted to say how much I *appreciate* your coming out to play. You're a REAL party animule despite yourself ... heh. Seriously, THANKS for BEING!
I certainly do and have mentioned it here before. It was early on a January morning (the 16th, I think) in 1981. The train derailed on the switches just south of the station and some cars almost landed in backyards. Right after that, the R-44s were banished from the Brighton Line (the residents had been complaining about vibrations from R-44s and R-46s damaging the retaining walls for years, anyway), and with the possible exception of the occasional gap train haven't been back since.
David
Is that why, when the Q ran some Jamaica R-32's in the post-9/11 plan, it didn't also run R-46's (with one reported exception)?
I doubt it. The objection was to 75' cars, which are heavier than 60' cars. 75' cars (R-68 and later R-68A) have been running on the Brighton Line since 1986 and I haven't heard any complaints about them from people who live adjacent to the right-of-way.
David
But you're heard numerous complaints from SubTalkers!
There was more than one R46 foray onto the Brighton line during that period. It wasn't THAT unusual.
Does anyone know the year B-type #2779 derailed at Ocean Parkway? From the looks of the pic I have, the car hardly looks like it was scratched, despite the severity of the derailment.
"Does anyone know the year B-type #2779 derailed at Ocean Parkway? From the looks of the pic I have, the car hardly looks like it was scratched, despite the severity of the derailment."
I think it was in the 1930's. Damn well demolished that tower. #2779 probably was returned to service after some work. Split the switch at Ocean Pkwy. God bless those BMT Standards, they don't build them like that anymore.
Bill "Newkirk"
AHHH, I thought you were talking about NYC Subway Brighton Line.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling Layout - Catch the Next Wave in Train Modeling at:
http://www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
You have to see this ebay auction.
Some wise guy is actually offering to give people a link to the best New York subway system website. He wants 99 cents for this information. And he is selling 99 of them.
I think we know which site he is talking about
Check out:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4152&item=2152519115
To make matters worse I don't think there is anything we can do about it. I wil complain to ebay but you know they won't care.
Why don't you list an item for sale in that category and mention www.nycsubway.org in the listing, that will mess him up.
Because I am a buyer, not a seller.
I am sending an email to ebay but I doubt if they will do anything.
I'll sell something
People can't be that gullible can they? All they have to do is type New York Subway in their favorite seach engine for free, and find it without $.99!
People can't be that gullible can they?
Lets hope no-one bites and he is out his listing fee
Well, *I* tried it on "alltheweb", and guess what site came in #1 out of 56,811 hits!
: ) Elias
No, that's only half-chutzpah.
Full chutzpah is selling the information on eBay and then asking for bids from websites to be "sold" as the "best" website.
Someone bought one of these things. See the first two feedback item links here: http://cgi2.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=positve-feedback
---Brian
This isn't really an auction item. It's "Buy it now" for 99 cents a hit. Multiply that by the 99 "available" hits, that makes it a cool $98.01. Is this guy hard up for $98 bucks or is he just seeing how gullible some people can be.
BTW, reading the description of the website link, it does sound like Kevin Walsh's Forgotten New York website. I think Kevin should have a look at this.
Bill "Newkirk"
Kevin could bid and give neutral feedback when he gets a link to his site.
Looking at other items offered by this seller, he's also selling access to what would certainly seem to be Kevin Walsh's hard work...
Auction # 2152521684
"This website has some great historical information on street names neighborhoods, old trolleys lines, cemetery information (you won't believe how many cemeteries there are in new york, that were built over and some that are behind apartment buildings!), some old pictures, and much much more. Also information on remnants of. You will really like this website and it is worth the 99 cents, You have my guarantee. If you are a fan of New York City, you will love this site."
CG
People will do anything to make a quick buck, sheesh what is this world coming to :-\. Don't bother complaining, don't waste your time over something as silly as that.
As P.T Barnum said so long ago "There's a SUCKER born every minute, and TWO to take them."
Good in the 19th Century, the 20th Century and still valid in the 21st.
Why someone would steep to such lows (just to get 99 cents for each one!) is beyond me.
Sorry to sound vulgar, but in all honesty, this person is an idiot.
(By the way, he has baseball cards up for auction too)
What's so vulgar about calling him a idiot? If you wanted to be vulgar, you could of called him an asshole or some other name but let me get back on topic. In this day & age, people will go to extremes to make money and selling links for 99 cents apiece is just absurd :-\.
Why is the guy selling the information the idiot? He's just capitalizing on other people's laziness. I think the real idiots here are the ones who pay for this information, when they can get the information fairly easily (and quickly). As for stooping to such a low for a mere buck, I see him to be a clever person who takes advantage of a situation. He's not degrading himself, or anything like that, anyways. The true beauty of American Capitalism.
As I said before, people these days do anything to gain quick $$ & I agree with your comment if he's making money off of it, then the people who were duped into that are the dummies & its unique [I guess]. I think this is a all new low for making money from online but if he's successful, more power to him; of course he won't get my money.
This is a common practice when it comes to pornographic websites. I've never seen it done with this type of stuff.
Unless the seller is Dave Pirmann or Kevin Walsh, it's in violation of the Downloadable Media policy.
Tell that to eBay.
>>> Unless the seller is Dave Pirmann or Kevin Walsh, it's in violation of the Downloadable Media policy. <<<
No it is not in violation of that policy. All he is selling is a link to a website. He is not trying to sell the content. If he were to advertize to sell a history of the IND, and then provided a link to this web site, that would be a violation. He is just saying he will sell information; how to connect to an interesting web site.
A bigger question is why do so many on this board think this is such terrible thing to do? He is not promising the world to potential buyers or suggesting that he has secret information. The price is not outrageous. Believe it or not, there are computer users (particularly just after Xmas) who do not know how to do a Google search. This person is providing them a service. The whole basis of business is to find people willing to pay for a good or service and provide it to them and make some money in the process.
Tom
All for sale, all for sale, all for sale ... suddenly I don't feel so guilty about doing what *I* do for a living, cleaning up people's computers for a price and GUARANTEEING happiness and support. I depend on folks buying "our mud" to pay for the time for me to do this and continue to provide that support no matter what Netscape, Microsoft and a few other natty companies do.
That all said, this guy's a lowlife. :)
Then again ... he ain't Enron or Halliburton. Ken Lay *Still* walks the streets. Morals? I practice them ... but I seem a lone wolf these days. :(
Agreed, in general.
I do have some reservations about people who offer to do something for you at an outragious price that you can do yourself for free.
Example: charging $1,000.00 in contesting a bad credit history for you. Of course, there you have the issue of a "credit repair" company promising to do something they cannot actually do, hence the fraud.
I do have some reservations about people who offer to do something for you at an outragious price that you can do yourself for free.
Example: charging $1,000.00 in contesting a bad credit history for you. Of course, there you have the issue of a "credit repair" company promising to do something they cannot actually do, hence the fraud.
According to something I read a while back, those "credit repair" companies actually do work, sometimes. Their usual modus operandi is to send a barrage of requests to the creditors on the customer's report, asking each creditor to offer proof of its debt. Under federal law, a creditor must respond to such a request within a set period of time, or else the debtor is entitled to have the item stricken off his or her credit report. Credit repair companies anticipate that at least some of the creditors won't be able to respond in a timely manner if hit with multiple offer-of-proof requests. I have heard, however, that most creditors have caught onto this ploy and now have sufficient resources to comply with even large volumes of requests.
>>> Credit repair companies anticipate that at least some of the creditors won't be able to respond in a timely manner if hit with multiple offer-of-proof requests. I have heard, however, that most creditors have caught onto this ploy and now have sufficient resources to comply with even large volumes of requests. <<<
What you describe is what the more reputable (in a comparative sense) credit repair operations did. Others went into blatantly illegal methods which opened their clients up charges of fraud.
I investigated the field about five years ago, and decided not to enter it. What really shot it down was the increasing availability of court records over the internet, making it possible to verify judgments and bankruptcies in minutes without leaving one's office rather than physically sending someone to a courthouse to verify records.
Tom
One of the finest railroad web sites on the entire internet was also victimized by this kind of enterprenurial sleaze. The following message appearred on the home page of George Elwood's site at http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/
THE END ???
It has come to my attention that a company named Blue Flame Productions Company has downloaded many of the images from my site and is distributing them on CD. Many of the CDs are being sold on eBay without permission from me or the owners of the images. Checking the Ebay site of items being sold, I was able to identify most of the images shown as sample as ones from my site. Also available on these CD are the operator manuals which I scanned and made available on my site. I don't have time to surf the net and don't belong to eBAY so this whole thing caught me by surprise. I have already heard from several submitters to my site who are considering legal action.
Thanks to those of you who reported this to eBay.
That's terrible! Arrest the bad guys and send them to jail for a long, long time!
---Brian
Really, what is so wrong with it? People buy TV Guide to recommend TV shows. So what's so wrong with paying for a recommendation to a website? Besides, it may be one of our regular posters. So you might be reporting a friend! And who knows? Someone who'll pay a buck to get to SubTalk may be the type who'll make an Amazon Click To Pay contribution to Dave!!
Someone who would try to make money on the backs of others is no friend!!
Reminds me about the guy once who was selling a fool-proof bug killer. $19.95. Guaranteed to work 100%. Included in the package was 2 bricks and a sheet of directions. The directions read:
1) Put bug on top of Brick #1
2) Slam Brick #2 on top of Brick #1.
I wonder if these bricks would work on those rats in the Montague Rat-nnel.
I'm sure someone can come up with a rat killing kit that's guananteed to work. Only $19.95 plus shipping and handling.
Maybe someone should send him the link to this thread.
...better yet, maybe someone should sell him the link to this thread!
What the Hell? At least he's giving Dave props about having the best site. I'm gonna give Dave 99 cents via paypal just for this one! Jackass on e-bay.
I am interested in the movie posters that are posted on the walls of most subway/el stations. Who (what company) is responsible for posting them up? How large are they? (dimensions) Also, does anyone have photos of them?
I scanned four b/w photos today which were taken by my grandfather in 1936 during his visit to the US. Two of them are views of the 6th Ave. el while the other two are more of a mystery. One was taken at an el station with a train pulling in. It appears to be a Dual Contracts el structure, judging from the canopies. No station signs are visible. The other is an elevated structure which I don't recognize. Can anyone identify either of these locations?
You can see them here. The ones in question are the first two.
Cool photos!
---Brian
I think the Bklyn El one is Knickerbocker or Central.
wayne
I think Wayne is right. I believe that that big theather looking building in the backround is still there, but painted white at Knickerbocker Ave. If that's true the train would be on the Manhattan-bound platform at Knickerbocker. If this is the 1930's, there was still an express track there.
I can't be 100% sure, but check out some photos of the Metro-bound platform of Knickerbocker, and I think you may see that building. It may get you a step closer.
I know my grandfather delivered a lecture in Brooklyn, but have no idea where. Judging from the fact that the train in the photo is definitely a wooden el train on a Dual Contracts structure, it would have to be either on the Myrtle Ave. portion east of Broadway or Broadway-Brooklyn itself where it shared trackage with Lex trains.
At ant rate, thanks for the replies.
Wooden cars also saw regular service on the Culver line in 1936. That picture could only be of Ave. X if it was taken anywhere on the Culver. It could also be somewhere on the Fulton el between Nostrand and Rockaway. I can't tell if the car in the pic is a gate car or a C type. Probably isn't anywhere along Fulton if it's not a C type.
I'll take a guess at the first one, captioned "mnhtnel." This would be the one you described as the elevated structure you don't recognize.
I'd say it's looking south on the 9th Ave. el (view taken from the west side of the street) at the junction where the Sixth ave el meets it, coming crosstown on one of those streets in the mid 50's (I always forget which one).
Looking at the middle right of the picture, the structure appears to have two levels, with an upper one curving away, while the structure underneath continues south. If this is correct, the track curving away, would be the southbound 6th Ave. track. It also looks as though the structure underneath is supporting and following these tracks as they turn away (east?). This gets tricky here because I can’t quite make out the structure for the southbound 9th Ave. track which would be continuing underneath and beside it. All other photos I have seen of this junction, are views from above, looking down on the 6th Ave. line as it turns north into 9th Ave., above the other structure.
It might also just be one of the double decked express stations, and the upper track structure is just narrowing and centering, as it ramps down to meet the others. Could it be 34th St. and 9th Ave. maybe? - presuming your grandfather took these photos all on the same day, strolling in the same general midtown area.
I'll take a guess at the first one, captioned "mnhtnel." This would be the one you described as the elevated structure you don't recognize.
I'd say it's looking south on the 9th Ave. el (view taken from the west side of the street) at the junction where the Sixth ave el meets it, coming crosstown on one of those streets in the mid 50's (I always forget which one).
Looking at the middle right of the picture, the structure appears to have two levels, with an upper one curving away, while the structure underneath continues south. If this is correct, the track curving away, would be the southbound 6th Ave. track. It also looks as though the structure underneath is supporting and following these tracks as they turn away (east?). This gets tricky here because I can’t quite make out the structure for the southbound 9th Ave. track which would be continuing underneath and beside it. All other photos I have seen of this junction, are views from above, looking down on the 6th Ave. line as it turns north into 9th Ave., above the other structure.
It might also just be one of the double decked express stations, and the upper track structure is just narrowing and centering, as it ramps down to meet the others. Could it be 34th St. and 9th Ave. maybe? - presuming your grandfather took these photos all on the same day, strolling in the same general midtown area.
I'll take a guess at the first one, captioned "mnhtnel." This would be the one you described as the elevated structure you don't recognize.
I'd say it's looking south on the 9th Ave. el (view taken from the west side of the street) at the junction where the Sixth ave el meets it, coming crosstown on one of those streets in the mid 50's (I always forget which one).
Looking at the middle right of the picture, the structure appears to have two levels, with an upper one curving away, while the structure underneath continues south. If this is correct, the track curving away, would be the southbound 6th Ave. track. It also looks as though the structure underneath is supporting and following these tracks as they turn away (east?). This gets tricky here because I can’t quite make out the structure for the southbound 9th Ave. track which would be continuing underneath and beside it. All other photos I have seen of this junction, are views from above, looking down on the 6th Ave. line as it turns north into 9th Ave., above the other structure.
It might also just be one of the double decked express stations, and the upper track structure is just narrowing and centering, as it ramps down to meet the others. Could it be 34th St. and 9th Ave. maybe? - presuming your grandfather took these photos all on the same day, strolling in the same general midtown area.
Those photos are not consecutive on the original 35mm negative except for the two 6th Ave. el pics. I'm pretty sure they weren't taken on the same day. This was the last leg of my grandfather's trip. He shot four or five rolls of film in NYC alone, including a Circle Line trip around Manhattan (which originated in Battery Park in those days) and a boat ride out to the Statue of Liberty.
The location I guessed at, the junction of the 6th and 9th ave. els, is pretty specific and could be tricky to ID from a street photo, unless one is familiar with the location (either from having have seen other street photos, or been around then). If it is not that corner, I'd still say that it's probably one of the double tracked express stations in Manhattan.
<>
..........WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I went home and checked this out last night. I watched the Roger Arcara tape I have (L-2: 6 & 9th Ave L's; Old Brooklyn L's). The crosstown el tracks from 6th Ave. do meet the Ninth Ave. el tracks at grade. It's the Ninth Ave. Express track which crosses over the southbound 6th Ave. track as it curves from 9th Ave. to go crosstown.
The structure in your photo looks nothing like what was in the film.
It does appear to be either a double decked express station on one of the Manhattan els or the approach to it.
---------------t!
The chevrons/carrots I put into my previous post eliminated the quote I wanted to include from a post of mine yesterday.
Here's how it should have read:
“… The location I guessed at, the junction of the 6th and 9th ave. els, is pretty specific and could be tricky to ID from a street photo, unless one is familiar with the location (either from having have seen other street photos, or been around then). If it is not that corner, I'd still say that it's probably one of the double tracked express stations in Manhattan. …”
..........WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I went home and checked this out last night. I watched the Roger Arcara tape I have (L-2: 6 & 9th Ave L's; Old Brooklyn L's). The crosstown el tracks from 6th Ave. do meet the Ninth Ave. el tracks at grade. It's the Ninth Ave. Express track which crosses over the southbound 6th Ave. track as it curves from 9th Ave. to go crosstown.
The structure in your photo looks nothing like what was in the film.
It does appear to be either a double decked express station on one of the Manhattan els or the approach to it.
Those are really great pictures Steve. Thanks for posting!
My guesses on the two mystery photos even though I have no idea. The second picture just looks like a Bway Bklyn station such as Gates or Chauncey. Did Broadway have uncovered third rails then or just the all-el lines? On the first picture, the fact that the middle of the roadway seemed to be closed off by chains probably means it was not a busy area such as midtown. Even in the 30's there was a lot of traffic in midtown.
In the pic at 6th Av and 44th it looks like Rockerfeller Center in the upper right background.
There's an interesting history behind these photos.
My grandfather took tons of photos, both b/w in M45 and 35mm and later 35mm color, before he came to the US permanently in late 1948. During his 1936 visit to the US, he shot some 40 rolls of b/w film. When it came time to flee Lithuania in 1944, he took most of his color slides with him, but left all his b/w material behind. For years we thought all of it was lost.
In 1992, we visited Lithuania for the first time since the Baltic Republics became independent and were presented with a stack of prints my grandfather had made before fleeing. Many were pics of his US visit in 1936. At the time we thought that was it, but at least it was something. Two years later, my folks were given an entire cache of my grandfather's b/w negatives - everything from 1929 thru 1944. It turned out that a gentleman entered my mother's family house in Kaunas after they had left and salvaged whatever he could: negatives, silverware, books, etc. He kept it all for nearly 50 years without telling anyone. One evening I started looking through those negatives, especially the ones from the US trip and was blown away. Miraculously, the negatives were still in excellent shape, if not a bit brittle. At first my folks suggested I pick out what was interesting, but after seeing how mesmerized I was, we decided to take everything home. My father said something I'll never forget: "This was your grandfather. If his only grandson won't take them, no one else will." To his credit, my grandfather labeled and cataloged everything, so it's easy to look up a 35mm negative. In addition, virtually every M45 negative is individually labeled and dated. He even made a wooden chest of drawers to hold everything, and we brought that same chest home with us. My mother remembers watching my grandfather make it. He had his own darkroom.
Somewhere my grandfather is smiling knowing those negatives are back in the hands of his family. I personally thanked that gentleman for salvaging so much material. We all thanked him. He's still alive today.
P. S. In 1994, we saw a photo of his displayed at a hydroelectric lpant in southwest Lithuania. I subsequently found the original M45 negative dated July 27, 1935. Incidentally, those prints I scanned were reprints from the original 35mm negatives.
Does anybody know how the Multi-colored flipdots on WMATA Breda and Rohr Metrorail cars work or if they are even multi-colored? If not, are the cars permanently assigned to their home line according to their flipdot colors?
The flip-dots are broken into 2 zones----One zone is always yellow, where the destination is located....the other zone has dots representing the five lines and are all five colors. Whichever line the train is on determines the flip dots...As for trains being restricted on a particular line, not on the Metro, all are interchangeable however they do like to keep series on certain lines just for the sake of efficiency and organization. In regards to destination signs on the Metro, I was very fortunate to acquire a roll sign from a Metro car before they went to dot-matrix. It has such classic destinations on as Rhode Island Avneue, Dupont Circle and Ballston, plus, it has Huntington as a Blue Line station, NOT Yellow....of course, in the early days, Huntington was supposed to be Blue and Franconia was supposed to be Yellow.
Mark
Where in hell did you get one of the roll signs? I checked with Adrian C. Sclawy over at The Office of Surplus Property about 4 years ago and he told me he had none and had no idea what happened to them. I would pay top dollar to lay my hands on one of the original roll signs.
I assume the roll sign you have does not have Dulles Airport on it, as the sign that were in the Rohr car when they were shipped from Georgia had station name on them that were never built along with stations that would not normally be considered terminal stations.
Oh, and by the way destination code 36 is for Dulles Airport. If you happen to be friendly with a train operator you might ask him to manually set the destination code to 36. I would be very curios to see if Dulles Airport would be displayed in the sign boxes.
Enjoy,
John
I wonder if it still is that way.
Only codes I know off hand are:
07 SILVER SPRING
09 GROSVENOR
10 SPECIAL
12 SHADY GROVE
13 GLENMONT
John,
I didn't get the roll sign from Adrian, although I do know that Adrian does have some surplus Green Line Shortcut maps---As for the roll-sign, as luck would have it, I was able to get it through Lem Procter directly, apparently all the roll signs (at least the ones that were left over) were left at the Brentwood yard. When I went to the HQ to pick mine up, I saw about 3 others on a conference table in his office.
As for the destinations, you can see where all the destinations that used to be on it for the Green, Yellow, and future extensions were stripped from it---I guess it made it easier on the barcode readers to remove them completely as the scroll spun around.
What I do have is like going back in time, you see Rhode Island Ave, Dupont Circle, National Airport, Stadium/Armory, Addison Road, New Carrollton, Ballston, Huntington (In BLUE), and a whole host of other stations ranging from King Street to McPherson Square.....It also interesting to see the strip maps that used to show inside the train...certain anomoly's that never made it to present day rail service, for example, Fort Totten being a transfer point for the Red, Green AND YELLOW Lines, or the Blue Line going to Huntington as originally planned.
Hmmmm---top dollar for the roll sign, I wonder, just how much is top dollar?......hmmmmm....
I'm considering bringing it to DC when we do the railfan day on 4/5
I know about the Green Line Shortcut maps. He gave me a set when I last saw him on 04 27 2001. Back in 1999 I purchased all of the surplus rail car maps dated 1996. These are the map that were used in the system prior to the opening of the Glenmont station. I have about 1400 of the regular maps and 300 of the Emergence Evacuation Instructions Map. I have been slowly selling them www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/wmata/.
I don’t visited this forum very much as I spend most of my online time on USNET, so I am not up to speed on you 04 05 2003 get togather. It would be fun to confer with other WMATA metrorail fans. I am kind of a lone wolf fan as I have not spent much time with other to discuss there verying fan interests in WMATA.
I live down in Calvert County in southern Maryland.
I would be happy to bring a hand full of the maps to sell to any body that might want a set of them.
My primary interest is the construction and engineering aspect of the system. Back during the 1970s and 80s I walked through most of the tunnels during construction. Road my bicycle through the Potomac river tunnels before tracks were laid. I have complete sets of construction drawings of about 6 of the downtown stations. Back in the 1970s when I lived in DC near Dupont Circle I volunteered in aiding Cody Pfanstiehl then WMATA Director Of Community Service run public walking tours of the of the construction sites. We had a lot of fun doing this a lot of people got to see areas of the system that are now off limits to the public. Got my first train ride in back in 1975.
Enjoy,
John
Well, now I know who was behind that site. Could you be so kind to tell me what happened to the rest of your site? I found it very informative!
If you would like to join us on the SubTalk DC Trip on April 5th, send me an e-mail. For more info, visit the Upcoming Events page.
"WMATA metro and other stuff" was pulled down because I was not satisfied with the amount of coverage that I had on and I did not have time to add more content to it. The content still exists on my file server. I have added and updated some stuff to it. It will reappear some time in the future.
Judging by what you said, I can guess Metro had plans for using some crossover stations as turnbacks... though how it'd get done at King Street is beyond me.
No Vienna? Or was that not built then? If they knew what would be built overall (i.e. the completed system as of 1/13/2001), then the sign could look like THIS:
SPECIAL
No Passengers
Instructtion Train
Red:
Shady Grove
Twinbrook
Grosvenor
Friendship Heights
Van Ness-UDC
Dupont Circle
Farragut North
Judicary Square
Union Station
Rhode Island Avenue
Takoma
Silver Spring
Wheaton
Glenmont
Orange/Blue:
Rosslyn
Foggy Bottom-GWU
McPherson Square
Federal Triangle
Smithsonian
Federal Center SW
Eastern Market
Stadium/Armory (forward slash or hyphen?)
Orange:
Vienna
West Falls Church
East Falls Church
Ballston
Court House
Cheverly
New Carrollton
Blue:
Addison Road
Arlington Cemetery
Huntington
Blue/Yellow:
Pentagon City
National Airport
Braddock Road
King Street
Yellow:
Franconia
Springfield
Van Dorn Street
Green/Yellow:
Greenbelt
College Park
Prince George's Plaza
West Hyattsville
Fort Totten
Farragut North
U St.-Cardozo
Shaw-Howard Univ.
Mt Vernon Sq-UDC
L'Enfant Plaza
Green:
Navy Yard
Anacostia
Naylor Road
Branch Avenue
... that's just a guess, though.
Well, to answer your earlier question, the reason they went to flip-dots was that the current configuration of roll signs was flawed. In essence, they kept breaking down and were a bitch to repair. The computers in the rail cars were designed to read a particular barcode that would have an assigned destination to it....the problem was, these barcodes were easily scratched, thereby making them unreadable. The computer would spin the roll sign from one end to the other looking and unable to find a particular barcode and would eventually "give up"---at the time, this really wasn't that big of a problem because in the early days, you didn't have multiple lines sharing track, it only became apparant when the Orange Line to Ballston debuted in 1979 that you could have two trains on the same track w/ two different destinations. So, they scrapped the roll-signs and went with the flip-dots, which has been reliable since.
As for the lack of certain destinations and the inclusion of others, before they got rid of the roll-signs altogether, they stripped a lot of the roll signs of non-existant stations in order to increase the odds that the computer would find the station (barcode) that it was looking for-----as for King Street, my guess would be that before Van Dorn and Franconia were opened, the Maintenance Yard was in use, thereby, a train headed south towards Huntington, could make it's last revenue stop at King Street before swinging west to the yard, and in the case of Vienna, you're right, the roll signs were long gone before the Vienna segment opened.
Vienna still should have been on the rolls. Show it to me in April if you bring it.
I believe the original signs actually may have had every station including ones that don't have crossovers, such as Cleveland Park. This would be useful when you get people jumping in front of trains, since Cleveland Park was once used as a terminal in that circumstance.
Also, according to "The Story of Metro" by Ron Deiter, part of the problem with the roll was that since it was so long, it jerked, causing the barcodes to be missed. Chicago uses roll signs on its trains but from what I understand, they only have about 12 readings including only one provisional reading (Ford City on the Orange Line). Those signs are reliable and are still in use today.
As I recall the phase opening terminals had the white text station names on Red, Blue and Green fields, the Yellow line had black text station names on the Yellow field with the strip map of the line shown on the in side sign box. All of the odd ball terminals were white text station names on black field both outside and inside
Red Line
White on Red with inside strip map
Glenmont
Wheaton
Silver Spring
Farragut North
Dupont Circle
Van Ness
Grosvenor
Shady Grove
White on Black inside outside
Tokoma
Union Station
Judiciary Square
Friendship Heights
Medical Center
Twinbrook
Blue Line
White on Blue with inside strip map
Addison Road
Stadium-Armory
National Airport
Huntington
White on Black inside outside
Eastern Market
Federal Center SW
Smithsonian
Mcpherson Square
Foggy Bottom-GWU
Rosslyn
Arlington Cemetery
Pentagon City
Braddock Road
King Street
Eisenhower Avenue
Orange Line
White on Orange with inside strip map
New Carrollton
Ballston
West Falls Church
Vienna
White on Black inside outside
Cheverly
Clarendon
East Falls Church
Green Line
White on Green with inside strip map
Greenbelt
U Street
Gallery Place
Anacostia
Alabama Avenue
Branch Avenue
White on Black inside outside
Collage Park
Chillum
Fort Totton
Georgia Avenue
L'Enfant Plaza
Navy Yard
Naylor Road
Yellow Line
Black on Yellow with inside strip map
Greenbelt
U Street
Gallery Place
Van Dorn Street
Springfield
Franconia
Along with other White on Black inside outside
No Passengers
Special
Dulles Airport
I don’t recall ever seeing Instruction Train or any other station names that were shown as future on the 1974 ARS
Many thanks. That answers half my question about the destinations. What half? Well, I guess Smithsonian was meant as a terminal, so what of Federal Triangle? Is not the crossover directly between the stations (as opposed to being in the tunnel just before one or the other station)?
Uh... were they all so badly misspelled? And just how does one turn back at Eisenhower Avenue? Or Rosslyn for that matter? I wonder why Rosslyn is on there and not Pentagon; both are nearly impossible to use as turnbacks.
Interesting... they had enough sense to only include the shared terminals on the signs once, not under BOTH lines that used them (IOW, no Pentagon City under Blue AND Yellow) Just as interesting is the fact that Dulles Airport is the only provisional sign, and is a white on black sign. 1) How were they so sure of this extension, and not of those shown on some older phase maps which included Laurel, Bowie, Lincolnia, Burke, Centreville, etc... 2) how is it "oddball"? Is it because it wasn't in the original phases? And why Gallery Place? isn't the crossover (actually a pocket track) between Shaw-Howard Univ. and Mt Vernon Sq? Why aren't they on the sign? WMATA is mixing me up...
Next question: Anyone know what the codes are for the flipdot signs? Or the CAFs, for that matter? Yes, I am nosey as the day is long, but this interests me.
Why is Gallery Place listed? It was the northern terminus for the Yellow Line when the line opened......There is a crossover switch between Gallery Place and Archives
"Why is Gallery Place listed? It was the northern terminus for the Yellow Line when the line opened......There is a crossover switch between Gallery Place and Archives."
To be precise the double crossover is on the north end of L'Enfant Plaza. This is why I listed L'Enfant Plaza as one of the white on black station on the Green line lest.
Only codes I have figured out are these:
07 SILVER SPRING
09 GROSVENOR
11 SPECIAL ?
12 SHADY GROVE
13 GLENMONT
And as someone else mentioned, 36 for DULLES AIRPORT maybe.
"Many thanks. That answers half my question about the destinations. What half? Well, I guess Smithsonian was meant as a terminal, so what of Federal Triangle? Is not the crossover directly between the stations (as opposed to being in the tunnel just before one or the other station)?"
In the case of Smithsonian the station out bound of the crossover would get its station name on the roll. In the case of most of the other stations the criteria would be the station physically closest to the crossover. I am not sure I listed all of the station, there might have been a Fort Totten in black and white on the Red line.
"Uh... were they all so badly misspelled? And just how does one turn back at Eisenhower Avenue? Or Rosslyn for that matter? I wonder why Rosslyn is on there and not Pentagon; both are nearly impossible to use as turnbacks."
Any misspelling should be attributed to me. As for Eisenhower Avenue, the Alexandria yard leads (C98) would have been used like they would be used for King street as you described in an earlier post. Rosslyn I have know idea.
"Interesting... they had enough sense to only include the shared terminals on the signs once, not under BOTH lines that used them (IOW, no Pentagon City under Blue AND Yellow) Just as interesting is the fact that Dulles Airport is the only provisional sign, and is a white on black sign. 1) How were they so sure of this extension, and not of those shown on some older phase maps which included Laurel, Bowie, Lincolnia, Burke, Centreville, etc... 2) how is it "oddball"? Is it because it wasn't in the original phases? And why Gallery Place? isn't the crossover (actually a pocket track) between Shaw-Howard Univ. and Mt Vernon Sq? Why aren't they on the sign? WMATA is mixing me up..."
The only shared terminal that I recall ever seeing was Greenbelt. Greenbelt was on the rolls as a terminal for both Green and Yellow lines. As for the Dulles Airport, I think that was put on there for political reasons. As you might remember there were as least 20 blank spots on the rolls to allow for additional station names to be added. I call them "oddball" because these station would not be used as terminals during normal operation. Gallery Place was black text on yellow field because the line and station to the south was opened before construction started on line and stations north of Gallery Place. The pocket track north of Mount Vernon Square was added and was not in the earlier plans. Both Green and Yellow line trains would terminate runs at Greenbelt. I don’t think WMATA had plans to short turn relay trains on the Yellow line at some point south of Greenbelt when the rolls were made.
"Next question: Anyone know what the codes are for the flipdot signs? Or the CAFs, for that matter? Yes, I am nosey as the day is long, but this interests me."
As for the destination codes, As far as I know there are the same as the codes used on the Rohr cars. The destination code are hard coded in the destination control hardware part of the train control system. The destination codes are used to not only set the destination signs but are also used to route trains through interlockings at junction, to pocket tracks at short turn terminals and at other location where there are crossovers. This is why there were all of those white on black station names on the rolls.
John
Thanks everyone. Each little bit helps. I could try deciphering the code myself, but one problem: I've NO idea what pattern there is. I'd guess one terminal would come first, then the "in-betwen" terminals, then another terminal... or, it could be like with the flip-dot signs SEPTA uses. The main terminals first, then the other turnbacks. Or it could be the relative same system as the rollsigns used, or in the planned phases. What really mixes me up is that SPECIAL is in the middle of the Red Line codes, and GROSVENOR and SILVER SPRING are two numbers apart, despite being used on the same runs. That suggests to me that they may use separate codes for Red Line and for the other four as well.
In addition, I've no clue what color order they go in. I'd guess Red, then Blue, Orange, Green, Yellow. Maybe Yellow before Green.
An educated guess at the codes missing, in numerical order.
00: NO PASSENGERS
01: INSTRUCTION TRAIN
02: EMERGENCY SVC.
03: RHODE ISLAND AVE.
04: FARRAGUT NORTH
05: DUPONT CIRCLE
06: VAN NESS
08: TAKOMA
10: UNION STATION
14: JUDICIARY SQUARE
15: MEDICAL CTR.
16: FREINDSHIP HTS
17: TWINBROOK
18: ADDISON ROAD
19: FRANC-SPRINGD
20: VAN DORN ST.
21: STADIUM-ARMORY
22: EASTERN MARKET
23: FEDERAL CTR SW
24: SMITHSONIAN
25: MCPHERSON SQ.
26: FOGGY BOTTOM
27: ROSSLYN
28: ARLINGTON CEM.
29: PENTAGON CITY
30: NAT'L AIRPORT
31: BRADDOCK ROAD
32: KING STREET
33: VIENNA
34: NEW CARROLLTN
35: BALLSTON
36: DULLES AIRPORT
37: WEST FALLS CHURCH
38: EAST FALLS CHURCH
39: CHEVERLY
40: GREENBELT
41: BRANCH AVE
42: U STREET (or was it, "U ST-CARDOZOO")
43: ANACOSTIA
44: COLLEGE PARK
45: WEST HYATTSVIL (or whatever, I'm sure it didn't fit)
46: FORT TOTTEN
47: GEORGIA AVE
48: SHAW
49: MT VERNON SQ
50: GALLERY PLACE
51: L'ENFANT PLAZA
52: NAVY YARD
53: NAYLOR ROAD
54: HUNTINGTON
55-99: I HAVE NO IDEA!!!
OK This is what I think I am going to do. WMATA holds there Metrorail Rodeo competition in June at the Greenbelt yards every year. It is open to the public. Have you ever wanted ride a train around the loop track at Greenbelt yard? Well here is your chance. Come early 0700 as train operator competition is one of the first things that happens. This is where I got my first look at the CAF cars before they put in revenue service and got some pictures of the interiors of the shops. Back in 2001 I got a look at New Carrollton yard. I will ask some body if they well let me change the settings for the destination signs so I can get the codes on one of car sitting on one shop tracks. Or simply ask if their is a list some where that I can get a copy of. To find out when the Rodeo takes place check the daily release page at the WMATA web site. WMATA usually announces the date and time of the Rodeo on there web about 2 week before event. I hope to solve the mystery of the destination codes.
John,
One small mistake, the Orange Line was Black on Orange, NOT White on Orange...also, on the Red Line, you're missing Rhode Island Ave, one of two original terminus'
See ya on the 5th.
Mark
"One small mistake, the Orange Line was Black on Orange, NOT White on Orange...also, on the Red Line, you're missing Rhode Island Ave, one of two original terminus'".
Opps!
John
I wonder what all the destination codes are in DC Metro. Moreover, what LINE would a Dulles Airport code activate? Or are there separate codes for line and terminal station?
When did they go flip-dot? I could guess at what destinations are on the sign. A very vague guess, but it'd be a challenge.
"I wonder what all the destination codes are in DC Metro. Moreover, what LINE would a Dulles Airport code activate? Or are there separate codes for line and terminal station?"
There are at least 100 codes 00 > 99 Others have posted the numbers they know. It would not be very hard to identify what number belong to what station terminals. All one has to do is look at the destination control display in the operators cab. As for the others. one would have to ask a friendly operator.
At the time the when the 1974 ARS was approved neither the Lincolnia or Dulles routes had colors. However as of some time last summer the Dulles route is now officially known as the Silver line. Plans call for trains to run from the proposed Middletown Road (VA277) station near Ashburn to Stadium-Armory with possible short turn westbound terminals at Dulles Airport, Wheel Avenue and Tyson West (Tyco Road) and possible eastbound short turn terminal at Tyson East (West Park).
Flip dot destination signs were first seen on the 2000 series Breda cars, and shortly there after the Rohr car were converted. There is no doubt in my mind that all of the destination that were on the rolls can also be displayed on the flip dot signs.
John,
Where did you find out that it was to be designated the "Silver Line"
Thanks,
Mark
Michael Malak posted a link to a Farfax Journal article on 05 04 2001 in USNET news group dc.urban-planning
The article in no longer on the Farfax Journal web site.
Quoting from Michaels post.
"WMATA staff are now referring to the Tysons/Dulles extension of Metrorail as the "Silver Line"".
John
Actually, it might be the White Line, as the metal signs for that color exist on the rear of the Green sign.
When you say that, do actually mean that the text saying "White Line" and an actual outline of a white circle is on the backs of these signs?
Mark
Hmmm, I never noticed...
That is what I am talking about. GREEN is on the back. You are free to draw your own conclusions. I just hope the line doesn't go anywhere near Anacostia.
John,
Have there been any othere articles since then to sort of solidify the "Silver Line" idea?
Mark
"Have there been any othere articles since then to sort of solidify the "Silver Line" idea?
If you have a subscription to the Washington Post online you might find some references in their archives. I have seen some articles in the Washington Times print addition that refereed to it as the Silver Line. I find this kind of odd but I did a exact phrase search at www.wmata.com and came up empty.
Like I said in my quote of the Michael Malicek USNET post, "WMATA staff" , This may be what it is being called internally.
The question that I have yet to get answer to is what letter will be assigned to the route. We know A, B, C, D, E, F, G, J, L and K are assigned to existing routes. This leaves I, H, M and the rest of the alphabet. I have been told by a source inside WMATA that letter I will likely not be used because it is to similar to the number 1. And I don’t think H will be taken out of the moth balls and used because it was once the designation of what is now the J route south of the Capitol Beltway VA I-495 / 95 from the 1970 ARS. The old J route terminal was to be at Backlick Road an the Norfork Southern Railroad right of way. This leaves M, and this is what I have been unofficially been calling it.
John
The north side of the plaza's now seeing some major changes. The elevated brick areas built during the 1982 fixup are now being ripped up, and the barriers at the edges of the plaza sidewalks have been removed. Chain-link fencing surrounds the construction site, and while some of it is covered over with tarp, other areas aren't. Being able to look east-west across the plaza without having the walls blocking your view is a pretty strange experience.
Work on the south (Foster Avenue) side looks like it will begin soon, since the aluminum wall cladding has already been removed in places.
(IIRC, while the plaza was renovated in 1982, the station and station house were overhauled in 1986/1987.)
Best to everyone in 2003
::D
I can't wait to see how it all looks once the Newkirk Av station is renovated [I use that station frequently (well its my home station) so I know what's going on :-)]. Yes, I've noticed the brick structures are being ripped out and more scaffolding is coming up on platform level. The chain link is a pain since it has made walking through more narrow but its temporary so I could deal with it. Best to you in 2003.
Thanks for the update on my old home station.
When you're on the northbound platform, did you notice those openings or barred windows in the concrete wall ? Years ago, there used to be signs covering those bars advertising the store directly above. I think most of the signs are gone. I remember Plaza Radio, a radio and TV store I bought many a 45 rpm record from, had a speaker that played music. I don't remember if it was used when I was young, perhaps some oldtimers who used that station may remember.
I also remember the major fiasco to extend the platforms to accommodate 10 cars in the mid 60's for Chrystie St. When you spoke of the removal of the old concrete retaining walls upstairs, I remember them without the chain link extensions. Also the original lighting on the Plaza was the old subway style gooseneck incandescent light fixtures used on outdoor platforms.
In the 60's when the platforms were extended, they removed the old light fixtures and erected these tall poles with mercury vapor lamps. That lasted until the early 80's rehab that has the current sodium vapor fixtures.
I have to stop by and check this out. I took some pics of the original station building before they rehabbed it. Glad I did that.
In closing, I remember the Ebinger's bakery on the corner of Newkirk Plaza and Newkirk Ave. Perfect location for commuters returning from a day of work, bringing home a cake. The chocolate blackout cake was my fave.
Bill "Newkirk"
When the Plaza renovation is complete, I hope the area will be better lighted than it is now, too dark in some spots when the stores are closed. And yes, how about a mini-Burger King or KFC to make the mall more attractive.
I agree, it is real dark there at night and a fast food restaurant in Newkirk Plaza would be good but is there any vacant space for this idea?
At the NW side (behind the Gulf gas station), it is possible to add retail space there, thereby closing that dreaded tunnel. I use that tunnel all the time but I wonder if other people feel safe at 11 PM using it.
Oh, yes near the gas station you could place it. The tunnel isn't really needed since you could enter near E 16 St on Newkirk Av but its a good "shortcut" to catch the train. I observed most people at night use the Newkirk or Foster Av entrance/exit over the tunnel.
Tunnel? Tell me more. (All I've ever done at Newkirk is transfer from express to local.)
It is a short about 25 foot long tunnel through the buildings to get to Marlborough Rd in place of a storefront. It is not underground.
They can't close that tunnel. It is actually the busier exit than out to Newkirk by the hardware store. It would also block off an entrance from the only easy parking. The merchants wouldn't like that. All of us that live in DPW would be up in arms, and make lots of noise.
There's nothing hidden on platform level and its actually a tunnel OUTSIDE of the station that leads to NP from Marlborough Rd. When they reduced the space it only made it more dark and less desirable but it is used a lot more than you think. I think its a surplus but as Zac said, people would not be happy with that and I think so too and its a good "shortcut" to catch the train.
>> ...how about a mini-Burger King or KFC to make the mall more attractive <<
(rant)
Fast food? Franchises? Yeech!
(/rant)
Seriously, remember that the new Mexican place (as opposed to the old Mexican place it replaced) has a good menu (including many viable vegetarian dishes for those of us so inclined), and they deliver. I like them.
What the plaza needs more than anything else, IMO, is for the tracks to be covered over to create a "real" Plaza. As it is now, there's the one side, and there's the other, connected only by small slivers of crossovers. Also, we do need at least one more good restaurant (why, oh why does every other storefront in this neighborhood seem to be a deli/grocery/bodega?). I harbor a personal dream of buying out the card shop next to the tunnel and the greasy spoon and turning it into a restaurant/bar with (seasonal) outdoor dining overlooking the line.
Speaking of restaurants, what we *really* need is a good pizza place. San Remo, over on Cortelyou, is edible, but not something you'd recommend to anyone. But at least it's not awful -- and they deliver.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
It's a neighborhood mall, not like Kings Plaza Mall when all of Brooklyn come to it. What do you expect, Adlemans? I'd just be as happy with getting a decent bite to eat late at night beside the Chinese restaurant, there are too many (five within a two block radius) in the area.
Exactly. At least there is a West Indian restaurant around there :-). NP and the area around there could use a little more variety, FIVE Chinese food stores, a pizza place [Lo Duca] that is so-so and 3 or 4 bodegas.
With Tuesday's early dismissal from work, I did a little Brooklyn railfanning and caught the LIRR from Flatbush Avenue. Going up to the street to look around while waiting for my train, I noticed a Chase Bank security guard standing at the top of one of the stairways. This sight jarred my memory a bit, and I recalled seeing Chase guards on duty there on the prior occasions I've used Flatbush. Chase has a large facility at MetroTech but nothing in the immediate vicinity of the terminal. Why would it have a guard stationed there?
To keep railfans from stealing its money train? ;-)
Maybe he IS a railfan...
Maybe he was waiting for someone before getting on the train.
Chase pays for private security to patrol the whole Metrotech-Fulton Mall area; I guess it might extend to the railroad terminal if a lot of Metrotech employees use that station to/from Metrotech.
Chase pays for private security to patrol the whole Metrotech-Fulton Mall area; I guess it might extend to the railroad terminal if a lot of Metrotech employees use that station to/from Metrotech.
That would make sense, although I don't quite like what it implies as to Chase's attitudes toward the safety of the LIRR terminal.
I'm not sure if they actually 'patrol' over there...I used to use the LIRR Flatbush Terminal until fairly recently. My guess is that those Chase guards are merely 'people watching' during a break in their tours, as I notice many chit-chatting with NYPD cops and/or the newspaper street vendors (and women passerbys) who frequent the entrance to the terminal.
They certainly didn't LOOK like they were on 'official duty' there.
Peter,
As someone who works for Chase and had spent 4 years at MetroTech (1992 - 1996) I can assure you that it is not the terminal but rather the area around the terminal (starting at the Chase MetroTech buildings)that cause the concerns.
Also the attitudes are based on employee concerns that were made to the company so don't blame Chase. F Y I - had the City not come up with tax breaks then Chase would have never moved to MetroTech. They had originally intended to go to Newport in Jersey City (which some of us wound up in anyway, albiet many years later).
When Metro Tech opened, they provided security every few blocks from LIRR to MetroTech plaza for the people who walked that distance. There were always fewer "guards" in the winter but when good weather rolled around they would reapear.
I used to work for Polytechnic in Metrotech, and some of the professors said the neighborhood used to be pretty bad. One guy had his briefcase snatched three times in the same year. There are a lot of housing projects around, North of Tillary, and just a couple blocks East of Flatbush. Flatbush is still pretty downscale, but crime doesn't seem to be a huge problem there anymore.
There is a highschool on Johnson street, just North of Metrotech. When it lets out in the afternoon, Metrotech is swimming with security. That much distrust is a sad sight, but I suspect that they wouldn't do it unless they had trouble at some time.
I've also seen Chase security guards at the entrance to the DeKalb Av station.
I used to work at Metrotech, and I am still an employee of Chase. The security guards have been there for years. When Metrotech opened the Fort Greene area scared lots of suburbanites. Chase provided these security guards up and down Flatbush Av. to ease the fears of all the Dashing Dan's that don't like to travel to the city. Many of the employees were transfered from Long Island against there wishes. When I worked there the guards were on duty during normal business hours. They were not present when the second shift left at midnight.
i have changed my handle as you can see above. anyways, my questions is this;
Is there any logical reasons for naming the pre unified subway cars Hi-V's, Low-V's, BMT Standards, Q-Types, C-Types and whatever else they are?
My other question is the same but this one is about the current R-type cars.
'R' stands for Revenue Contract number, you get the diffrent numbers from when they were purchased under what contract. Hi-V means high voltage, and Low-V is low voltage. Why they have this name i dont know? For the rest of them I have no clue.
Hi-V cars had all 600 VDC running through the motorman's controller. On Lo-V cars, the 600 VDC charges batteries, which feed the controller 32 to 40 VDC at a time. All subway cars today are technically Lo-Vs.
The A-type and B-type "Standards" were so called because it was the "standard" body design for the BMT's subway cars. After the Standards, the BMT put rebuilt gate cars, called the C-types into subway service, then ordered the articulated D-types (a.k.a. "Triplexes," for the 3-car articulated unit).
The letter Q may have been chosen for the Q-types because they were initially for use on the BMT's Queens routes.
What si the exact name of the colors used in MTA:
1- Fishbowl orginal green
2- Old look two tone green (both greens)
3- Current MTA Blue
4- Fifth Ave Coach Light Green (Sort of a greener shade of lime green).
If you have the HTML codes even better.
Fellow webmasters and Wayne (Slant 40) can you help?
There's only rain here in southern Brooklyn, but I'm wondering if there is any freezing rain or sleet in the outer boroughs that might create ideal conditions for Heavy Third Rail Arcing. If you live near an elevated line, please stick your head out the window and see if you can detect any blue flashing as trains pass by. Anyone in a traffic helicopter, who might do a scan of the 5 boroughs? I'm hoping to get some intense photos for the first issue of Third Rail Arcing magazine, which will appear quarterly.
I THINK THAT ARCS ARE A THING OF BEAUTY. An interesting spot to hear/see line switches arcing is on the #1 Broadway line. Go to the driveway of the Allen Pavilion on the downtown side of the Broadway Bridge. Go up about thirty feet or so and listen to the next downtown train as the line switch drops out because of the third rail gap.
driveway of the Allen Pavilion??
I checked my Avid Reader decoder book, and that expression is not a code word for today, so I guess the Allen Pavillion is part of Beekman??
Anyway, what exactly is a line switch?? Thanks...
The Allen Pavilion is part of Columbia Presbyterian Hospital. It is a a few hundred feet from the Broadway Bridge (#1/9 Line) on the downtown side on the Manhattan end. Someone looking out the window of a train going by can look right at it because it's on the hilltop.
The 'Line Switch' is a gizmo that I hope that Jeff H. sees this exchange and will explain it for me. It basically deals with producing a clean cut off for the 600 volts between the motor circuits and the third rail or trolley overhead. The break takes place at the line switch (usually under the car). If you know where to look you can sometimes see the flash when it does its job. I'm sorry that I cannot give you a better explanation. Maybe someone else readng this exchange can help if Jeff H. does not see this post.
"I'm hoping to get some intense photos for the first issue of Third Rail Arcing magazine, which will appear quarterly."
I wish I could subscribe, but I already purchase "Losing Head End Power Monthly", which includes fascinating shots of NJ Transit Comet II cab cars with the emergency lights on.
No sleet necessary; the rain alone made for some nice arcing between 46-Bliss and 52-Lincoln on the 7 last night.
Do you live nearby?? Can you hear the effects of the arcing on an AM radio??
Neither of the above. I may bring my portable shortwave next time I'm riding, though.
I forgot what I wanted to post about
But I'll start a new thread to ask it.
Trying to get on the Top Ten Posters for January?
You do THIS three times a day and you're a couple thousand to the good on next year's record.
Too much free time....(G)
Where was this baby located? I want more specific details than "Canarsie," although such an answer would be correct.
If you mean Carnarsie Trolley Terminal I guess you mean the trolley loops around the Canarsie L terminal near the shore at E95 & E96 St.
If you mean Canarsie Depot, Hegeman and Rockaway Avenues.
If you want to see photo and pick up a slice of pizza, the pizza shop next to the L just put up old photo of Carnarsie and East New Yark up on there wall. There are a few photo of the Cararsie Trolley Terminal has well as Broadway Juction and other site in these places.
Robert
I meant the latter.
Ah, yes. Southwest corner of Rockaway & Hegeman. The Church Avenue trolley loop was at a corner of this property (called Bristol Street Loop), and had track connections to the depot. At the end of Church Avenue service, both depot and connections were gone, the Church Line having previously been transferred tp 9th Avenue.
Is there areason why trolleys, and later buses (B35), originating at the 39th St Ferry have their routes wind up in Brownsville (Rockaway and Hegeman)?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Rockaway and Hegeman is (or was) considered Canarsie. Church was one of the few crosstown routes in southern Brooklyn, connecting the 39th Street ferry with Flatbush and Canarsie, where further connections could be made to the Canarsie Shore and the Rockaways, via ferry.
Is there anything left to see of the Carnarsie Terminal?
If we're still talking about Canarsie Depot (i.e., the Canarsie trolley barn) I think it's a housing project now, so, sadly, no.
Yep, that is what I was asking about, thanks Paul. Didn't think there was anything left of it, but it couldn't hurt to ask.
How about forgotten NY doing a page of the former carbarns before they disappear?
That sounds like something that would interest Kevin, but you need to know where they were, and, I guess, which are still around in some form.
Some of the car houses are, of course, bus garages now. Flatbush and ENY and Fresh Pond come most readily to mind. Fresh Pond was revived as a bus depot after a decade or more of non-use after the trolleys left. Canarsie and 9th Avenue come readily to mind as those of which I believe there is no trace. I wouldn't be surprised if there were some switches buried in the street pavement which you might hope could poke through.
As to the condition of others, even if I did know 30 years ago, I wouldn't be much help now.
The current Flatbush depot replaces the old trolley depot and is to the south (but on the same superblock). The old trolley depot site is the Power Playground.
Correct. There are two remnants visible from the old Flatbush trolley depot: two trolley poles are across from the Power Playground in a lot that was formerly a used car dealership (Utica & Ave. N -- n/w corner). I believe the property is still owned by MTA/NYCT.
I remember the same loop that everyone else recalls. However, I also seem to remember (back in the 50s) a green building on the west side of Rockaway parkway, just south of the Rockaway Parkway station that might have served a a barn. Does anyone else have any recollection of this building?
The 'Terminal' is where you catch the B-42 bus nowadays. Also, the area where the B-6 and 82 buses pull up to meet customers was also part of the trolley loop during the 20' through the 1950's.
If you mean the last stop of the trolley line, then that would have been near the Canarsie shore at approximately E. 95th Street and Skidmore Lane.
William Fausser wrote a book, about 1979, on the Canarsie RR that gives all the info you could want.
The title I believe was "The Brooklyn and Rockaway Beach Railroad". Perhaps you can find it at bibliofind, tomfolio, or alibris.
I believe he had intended to write a book on each of the "excursion railways" that preceeded the BMT lines in Brooklyn, but passed away having written only two, on the Canarsie RR and the "Sea Beach to Coney Island" I have, and cherish, both.
If my memory serves me correctly, I bought the Canarise RR book the night he passed away-after leaving an ERA meeting, from a heart attack.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/TROLLEYS/canarsie/canarsie.html
I have a question- probably Paul Matus knows, since once he was able to tell me where the old Consumer's Park station on the Brighton was-
I understand that the trolley was the replacement for when the Canarsie line actually went down to the water, and that the line was cut back to Rockaway Pkwy.- obviously, it was surface ROW because Rockaway Pkwy. is surface level, but did the original elevated line route follow the SAME path that the trolley later did? You see what I'm getting at? And, if so, where were the stops, or was it like the original Gravesend line, where the train stopped wherever the cord was pulled?
Thanks for your help in advance.
Okay- upon further thought, it dawned on me that on my 1925 BMT map, the extension past Rockaway Pkwy. was on it- so I looked, and saw that Flatlands Ave., Avenue L, and Canarsie were listed as stations. Were these actually "stations", meaning with platforms, or just designated train stops at corners, a la Gravesend line?
Yes, they were stations (wooden of course) and I believe set up as island-type platforms.
BTW, going back further enough -- probably the steam era of Canarsie Ops -- the line's stations had different names...for instance Avenue L was known as 'Holmes Station' so named for a prominent African-American family that lived along the ROW. Also, the terminal stop (by the water) was known as 'Canarsie Grove'. Flatlands was always there during this period, but there was also a station stop exclusively for the Liehmann's Hotel (IIRC, same building as the Knights of Columbus which was recently torn down at the ROW on Conklin Avenue).
The Canarsie is one Brooklyn Line with a very rich and interesting history...
Island platforms? I thought the line was surface ROW...I'm not challenging you at all, I'm just completely curious. Also, did it follow the route that the trolley later took over?
Hi Tony and Doug,
Yes, Avenue L and Flatlands were originally island platforms, but this meant, at most, a little jog in the tracks, and maybe only a short smooth cleared space between the tracks, possibly without even wood decking--at least by the time it was turned over to trolley opeation there was no longer a wood platform, if it had existed.
The trolleys ran on the same r-o-w as the L did. When the BRT decided to make its elevated division 100% third rail and (almost) grade crossing free, it "solved" the issue of the outer Canarsie and Culver/Norton's Point Lines by running trolleys on the same r-o-w.
At any rate, the trolleys apparently did not honor the old elevated stops, and stopped where hailed at the corners. Pick up would have been from the right side off the street, not from the former elevated station areas.
Right, Paul. The hi-level platforms for the rapid transit ops would have been much like the stops on today's LIRR Long Beach Branch (for example): trains run at street grade, with customers gaining access by walking up a few steps to the platform. However, with the old Canarsie Line this meant passengers had to cross the tracks to get to the platform because of their island configuration. Also, keep in mind that the Canarise RT Gate Cars were equipped with trolley poles because once the line ran on grade (south of New Lots Rd.), the power went from third rail to overhead wire down to the shore.
Of course going back to the steam era the stations were rural-oriented, i.e., there were no platforms, merely a wooden planking where the passenger car's stairwells would line up with them for boarding.
From my studies of arcing at 72nd Street, I've noticed that on each car, both contact shoes create a strong arc when losing contact with the 3rd rail.
I'm assuming now that both trucks on each subway car have motors. Does the contact shoe on each truck supply power only to the motor on that truck? And from which truck do the other systems draw power?
The four "current collectors" on each car feed EVERYTHING on that car. If you think back to what you saw, it was the LAST truck in contact with that rail going across the gap that actually arc'd ... a shoe coming in contact with a third rail can arc if it has a crappy contact, but a departing shoe across a gap has that "love hold" on the electrons that it's unwilling to give up until "separation anxiety" takes hold.
Go watch it again, you'll note it's the TRAILING truck's shoe that gives you that nice arcy-sparky ... until the air's resistance finally breaks the arc paths with distance from "last contact" ... moo.
Yo! THANKS for all those tapes - been *SO* busy the last year and change that I had NO time to take in the wonders you sent - until the last day or so! That "Third Avenue El" tape you sent was EXACTLY what I'd hoped for ... ***THANKS!!!*** along with "if stories could tell"
to round out the 20 minutes ... but you gave me that piece of history I lost when I lost my "pre-EIAJ" helical scan video player from the "Videofreex" days ... THAT was what I'd lost!!! THANK YOU!!!
And the foamy tape of Dougie and I hijacking that R143, and "being in the cab without paperwork" bit was a TRUE treasure as well ... sorry that my duties to earn my monthly nut kept me THIS long from sitting down and being able to take it all in. THANK YOU! :)
hey Kevin... You're right. I went back and watched the arcing current collectors, and it is the trailing truck that arcs wildly. I just froze a frame on one of the arcs, that has a rich red corona to it. The arc's colors are really spectacular and a lot safer to watch than a thermonuclear device.
red arcing
I'm glad you enjoyed the video of your visit last year (2001). I really liked the short film about the evening rush hour. It gave a nice feel of the transit workers back in the early 1950's.
Psychedelic!
Heh. Yeah, the reddish ones are "hotter" in that in addition to oxygen breaking down, there's also a flame element to the arc-over ... that's how trash gets lit up on the tracks and is why folks should be grateful to those who walk the tracks picking up trash.
And yes, that day in the life piece was QUITE interesting. A *really* wonderful collection you put together there ... wish it hadn't taken THIS long to find an hour or so to sit and veg out.
Interesting suggestion by Google:
"But officer, I'm not stalking these trains, I'm just standing here minding my business."
I am guilty of stalking redbirds, and if that is a crime, then I will soon be guilty of bribing a jury.
---Brian
If anyone is looking for a copy of Robert C. Reeds 1978 book "The New York Elevated" I just saw one available on ebay - opening bid $20.00
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7541&item=2903768281
If you got to www.railroad.net you will see a shot of Bob Vogel back in the day....looks suspiciously like a certain former R-9 operator. :)
I'm gonna burn a watermelon on your front lawn. :)
LOL! Would like to see you try.....cuz ya gotta first get past the snarling Dobermans, then a gator-filled moat, a mine field, and finally Iron Mike Tyson :)
We eat our dobermans with mustard and onions up here - no problem. Gator-filled moat? No problem there either, I'll bring a couple of lobbyists and give Bruno a day arf. Mine field? No problem there either, a truckload of bambis oughta get those cleared. Now Iron MIKE? THAT might be a problem. Lemme see if Marv Albert is available and I'll get back to ya on that. :)
"Iron Mike Tyson "
With or without his teeth?
:0)
I asked Brother Kev about that when I first saw his photo. We were separated at birth... by a few miles and a coupla years.
Having met Bob in Chicago in 2001, I can tell you that if Kevin looks anything like Bob, that's two mugs only a mother could love...on payday!
Thanks a lot, Dave. Nobody knows what Kevin looks like behind the facial hair. Doug's reference to me was with respect to a previous incarnation.
If you look at SteveB's SubTalk Day at Branford photos, you will see Kevin is his 2002 visage. Nothing like the old days. Even looks somewhat respectable. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
You're right, Dan. I'd forgotten how respectable Kevin looks now.
OK, found a vintage shot ... Unca Selkirk taking a Conrail SD-80MAC out for a "leg stretch" on the Chicago line ...
Rasputin getting a cab ride!
Rasputin needs no diesel, move train by willpower. Da. :)
Looks more like Jerry Garcia laid down his geetar for some fiddlin' on the railroad...:)
Nah, banjos are standard safety equipment on freights. :)
LOL!
Now THAT is a scary sight !
Yeah, I guess I should have worn an orange vest. :)
LOL, yea that would have helped a lot ... NOT
Guess I'll sign off now ... was having SubTalk Withdrawl pains, so I thought I would take a peek & see how things were going.
Yep same old, same old. Be talking to you guys in earnest in a few days.
Thurston! What are you doing up at this ungodly hour?! And how were you able to post? Did a certain daughter relinquish her PC rights to her dad? Remarkable!
(PS -- Happpy New Year)
Nope, just seeing if the AOL account that my OTHER daughter uses from school still works. Deleted a piece of mail I thought was junk ... opps.
Got a scanner for Christmas as a hand-me-down, i.e. the daughter of who you spoke got a printer/scanner from the boy friend, so I got her scanner, now I have to figure out to hook it up ... chains to the printer ... she could never make both work :-(
I COULD give you some pointers...but it'd cost ya....Ha!
I've had the fur for about twenty five years now, so even *I* don't know what I look like under there. And since I live upstate, it AIN'T coming off for thrillseekers, I need that to keep me WARM. :)
"Damned hippies ..." (line from "Silver Streak" to keep it somewhat topical)
OK, trivia question. (for Kevin only) What is the name of the actor that said that line?
Answer below in invisible ink:
Scatman Cruthers (spelling might be off)
Didn't peek, but that was da "scatman" ... broke out a bottle, waved it in the air as the train came to a stop and said, "HELLlllllO Chicago! (gotta drink to THAT)" Damn hippies. :)
Correct!!!
Dewd ... gotta leave a message ... have you been playing around in the evidence room again? =)
Is this like one of them "feds and heads" moments, missuh officah?
Q: What is the difference between a drunk and a stoner?
A:The drunk will drive through a stop sign, while the stoner will wait for it to turn green.
Moo. :)
Kev, you didn't get it. So I guess you didn't see my Scatman Crouthers answer underneath the original trivia question.
Hint: Drag your mouse while holding the left click where the message should be.
Damned FEDS and their lemon-scented inks. :)
Nope, didn't see that, didn't need to ... I know FEW railfans who would refuse ANOTHER viewing of "Silver Streak" ... given a choice between that and "Money Train", foamers prefer the scatman 6000 to 1. Even IF JLo is hot. Heh.
For those with an interest in industrial heritage (and industrial intraplant railways):
There is a new book "Copper on the Creek" about the former Phelps Dodge copper facility at Laurel Hill (Newtown Creek, Maspeth).
Its inexpensive, placeinhistory.org has info, follow the links to Newtown Creek.
HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL.
I have been to NYC only once (summer 2001) and from what I have seen and heard, the NYC subway cars seem very noisy and can be annoying to non subway fans not from DC. The screeching of the brakes and the ability to hear every crunch and bump in the rails are what I am most concerned about. The noise was so loud on the L train that when it took one of the tight hairpin turns, I could not hear my dad talking who was sitting about three seats to my left b/c of the screeching. Only in some sections of tunnels in the WMATA is it even close to being that loud. Is it merely the age of the MTA subway system that makes it so loud?
Stand on the platform at Potomac Avenue (either end, but the west end is better) and listen to the Bredas sing!
wayne
Older subway cars are not as well soundproofed as the newer ones. The R-40 or R-42 you rode in the summer of 2001 on the "L" is an older model.
Then again, most people on this board would not consider them noisy :)
--Mark
The more wheel noise there is, the more I like it. Down with ALL track sprayers and grease guns!
wayne
Quick, buy stock in hearing aid companies. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
No, use Gorman's Ear Guards.
GUARD YOUR EARS with Gorman's.
I prefer LEIGHTS myself.
Peace,
ANDEE
so when the deaf sub talkers meet how many of us will have had help from Garcia, Townshend, Kaukonen, as well as St Louis, ACF, BUDD, etc/
Ian Kilmister - also known to the world as LEMMY - he's GOT to be the most hardened warrior of all - he's now 61 years young, and he's STILL out there playing with the LOUDEST band of ALL TIME - MOTÖRHEAD.
wayne
Grease guns don't make people slip, people make people slip.
---Brian
www.railfanwindow.com
He's NOT talking about slipping. He's talking about track noise.
Peace,
ANDEE
I know, but I couldn't think of anything funny about grease and track noise. I'm sorry.
---Brian
Hey, he's gone deaf already :)
--Mark
I don't know about NYC per se, but, I do know that in DC, all the tracks are welded together so you don't get the "clickety-clack" as you're moving along....Wayne, you're not kidding about Potomac Avenue, I find the same to be true at U Street and the eastern end of Tenleytown and the western end of Van Ness....Also, at times (not always) you'll get a lot of screeching from both ends of Judiciary Sq.
Mark
I just assumed the newer systems used wider radii on their ROW's. Since NYC had to fit between existing buildings (i.e., the Broadway route, turning corners), the flanged wheels are always working themselves in friction contrary to the centerline of the track. Test: when you hear the screeching, check whether the next car is at an angle.
You missed the era of the Almond Joys in Philadelphia.
Of course, there's still nothing like the truly ear-shattering high-pitch roar of the Kawasaki Broad Street line cars rocketing past Fairmount station on the express track. Somehow the truing machine never gets it quite right...
All southbound "Q" service via the express Prospect Park to Kings Highway.
YAY! Now the R-68's can stretch their short legs.
---Brian
Service was restored shortly before 1238. Now you know why these things never make the transit/traffic reports.
But something was up during PM rush. Dekalb tried to hold us at Newkirk (someone ignored the lights) and on the PA as we arrived at Kings Hwy they told the Q Diamond to hold at kings hwy until Brighton called them. That there were over 4 trains ahead of this express (around 5:30pm).
With everything dispatched out of Brighton now, I would think they would allow Brighton control of the the holding lights south bound instead of Dekalb??
Just an idea.
Newkirk and Kings Highway are both controlled by Stillwell Master, not DeKalb. The station PA at Kings Highway is from Brighton Beach.
Alex, this broken rail....was it truly 'broken' as something that was seen visually, like a split railhead (from above) or was the damage something hinden from view (like a crack between the head and the base)?
Don't know - all we ever hear is "broken rail". From my POV, once the work gang is there, I don't care how it was broken, just so long as they fix/replace it.
Dang! What kinda motorperson doesn't catalog every nut, screw, bolt and lockwasher? And every car number? Heh. Buffs just can't believe that we DON'T CARE as long as we get our trips in somehow. :)
Fair 'nough...
Service was restored shortly before 1238. Now you know why these things never make the transit/traffic reports.
Not so fast, there.
Are you saying that, because the condition didn't last long, it couldn't be on the traffic/transit report? Don't forget that those reports come every 10 minutes on news stations. I am sure you have heard traffic tie-ups which announced on one report, and are left out of subsequent reports.
If this subway situation had happened during the morning or evening rush, even if it was of short duration, then it could have made one or two of those radio reports, if Shadow were even looking for such items, which they aren't.
I was listening to this wonderful clip from the old radio station 99X (WXLO) from 1978. (The station is at 98.7, and, since 1982 or so, has been WRKS/Kiss-FM.) Charlie Steiner (now of the Yankee radio booth) was the newscaster on Jay Thomas's morning program.
This is before the days of Shadow; presumably each station had its own sources. Steiner always led off the news segment with the "traffic and transit" report, and here is what he reported this day:
"Long Island Rail Road reporting the 7:11 from Far Rock, due into Penn Station at 8:03, eleven minutes behind schedule. Southbound West Side Highway bumper-to-bumper..."
Click here to hear the clip. Steiner's newscast begins at 7:30 into the clip.
Steiner led this report with the announcement of ONE LIRR train that was 11 minutes late! THEN he went on to list the traffic problems on the West Side Highway, at the Lincoln Tunnell, the GWB, the Harlem River Drive, and an accident on the Deegan.
So, yes, transit backups can come and go, sometimes within the space of a quarter-hour. But, that isn't really a reason to ignore them. As I mentioned, on news stations, the traffic reports come every 10 minutes. Remember that Steiner's newscast was once an HOUR, yet he mentioned the LIRR delay.
It seems to me that information of this sort should really be available on the radio today. Traffic/transit reports should have room for mention of items of transit which are of of the calibre of the item that Steiner reported, such as the problem at Beverley Road, or even Todd Glickman's example from a few weeks ago of the uptown IND trains skipping 42nd St.
Other examples would be:
downtown F trains running on the A line from W4th to Jay St.
all no. 7 trains running local
delays on the E and F lines; use the V instead (this is modelled on the frequent traffic report items advising commuters to use the Holland Tunnel rather than the Lincoln Tunnel, the Northern State rather than the LIE, etc.)
Ferdinand Cesarano
P.S. -- About the clip: It is from a site called New York Radio News, by Martin Hardee. According to the site, Hardee produced a documentary about radio news in New York for the University of Florida School of Journalism and Communications back in 1978. He has made some of the segments available on the web. Right now, there are sections for eight different stations on the site. (The site has a page with the WCBS segment, on which I would bet that Mr. Glickman can be heard. However, I must admit that I haven't listened to the WCBS clip yet.)
Are you saying that, because the condition didn't last long, it couldn't be on the traffic/transit report? Don't forget that those reports come every 10 minutes on news stations. I am sure you have heard traffic tie-ups which announced on one report, and are left out of subsequent reports.
If this subway situation had happened during the morning or evening rush, even if it was of short duration, then it could have made one or two of those radio reports, if Shadow were even looking for such items, which they aren't.
I'm sure someone could sit around Shadow with a scanner to find out problems on the subways, but then they couldn't mention it on air. I don't see Transit paying someone to call Shadow for every little problem, because for the most part, by the the time Shadow is alerted, the problem is solved.
This particular broken rail problem lasted for about two hours, but didn't have a great effect on service - you either went express and backtracked, or you waited at Prospect until the problem was resolved. Most people heading for those local stops don't have an alternate subway ride home. When I'm driving, it's nice to know that the Brooklyn Bridge is closed due to an accident - I can go through the Battery Tunnel and avoid the snarl.
I'm sure someone could sit around Shadow with a scanner to find out problems on the subways, but then they couldn't mention it on air. I don't see Transit paying someone to call Shadow for every little problem, because for the most part, by the the time Shadow is alerted, the problem is solved.
Shadow (or any other traffic service that may pop up in the future) should place a permanent staffer at MTA headquarters. Then they would know about things such as this as soon as the MTA itself knows. Information about the subways/railroads is essential, so MTA headquarters should be a regular "beat" for a traffic reporting service.
If this were actually done, then a subway delay that lasts two hours would have a good chance of being reported.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I can't walk into Control Center without a bleeping escort - and I work for them. There is no way that they will let someone (actually three someones - IRT, BMT and IND) who works for Shadow et al. in to a 'sensitive' location.
One problem. Shadow traffic main audience is people in thier cars driving places. Unless the TA installs underground radio transmitters, there is not enough of an auidence to warrent an employee dedicated to the MTA.
Its only what 2-3 Q local trains that were diverted, now if it was a substansial detour/delay then it would be televised.
Like the 2/5 signal problems in the Bx during the PM rush. I doubt it was televised.
Officials crossing signals on trains
Rensselaer-- State wants refurbished high-speed units to hit rails; Amtrak says they're not ready to roll
By CATHY WOODRUFF, Staff writer
First published: Thursday, January 2, 2003
Sleek, shiny and built for speed, the two reconditioned Turboliner trains sit idle outside Amtrak's local maintenance shop.
After laying out millions for Super Steel Schenectady to rebuild seven of the 1970s-era trains, State Transportation Commissioner Joseph Boardman is restless to get them moving on New York's Empire Corridor. The Turboliners are the centerpiece of a high-speed rail program announced by Gov. George Pataki in September 1998, and the trains were supposed to be in service by early 2001, shortening the trip between Rensselaer and New York City by about 20 minutes.
But Amtrak officials aren't ready to start running the trains and have no start time in sight. And with some $140 million in track improvements yet to begin, the turbos' higher speed capabilities are worth little. Until the tracks can handle the speed, the new trains will likely maintain the typical 2 hour, 25 minute trip time between Rensselaer and New York City for the foreseeable future.
The first of the trains was delivered to Amtrak for final testing in August and is considered ready for service by DOT. The state also considers the second train, delivered this month and undergoing final testing, nearly ready to go.
"They desperately need equipment, and this equipment is a lot better than what they have," Boardman fumed during an interview earlier this month.
Amtrak officials insist on more time for testing and crew training -- along with the parts, catalogs and manuals they say are necessary for their maintenance crews to keep the trains running.
"We're talking about a 30-year-old piece of equipment, where many of the parts were made from scratch and aren't available as standard parts in catalogs," said Dan Stessel, an Amtrak spokesman in Washington, D.C., who recently toured one of the new Turboliners in Rensselaer with a reporter and other staffers from Amtrak and state DOT.
"We need to have an inventory of critical parts on hand," Stessel said. " A, the parts are rare and come from a variety of sources and, B, we don't have the part numbers from Super Steel."
For now, DOT plans to keep the Turboliners rolling over to Rensselaer as soon as Super Steel finishes them at the company's Glenville plant under a $74.4 million contract. A third train is slated for delivery by early April, if not sooner.
"They'd better make room for them because they're going to keep coming," said DOT spokesman Peter Graves.
DOT plans to approve the fourth train for testing by late June, with three more to be ready by early 2004. That schedule, however, will be worth little unless Amtrak is satisfied enough to start using them to carry passengers.
The reconditioned Turboliners were designed to be high-performance additions to Amtrak's fleet along the Empire Corridor between New York City and Niagara Falls. With their compact turbine engines in locomotives at both ends, they were conceived as a unique diesel-fueled cousin to Amtrak's high-speed, electric Acela trains.
Amtrak's specialists say that during testing, the first train reached 144 mph, far faster than the 125 mph originally expected.
Even without the higher speed, the unusual configuration of the five-car "train sets" -- made up of a locomotive/power car with passenger seating at each end, two full-size passenger cars and a cafe car in the middle -- could shorten turnaround times in some cases. The dual-locomotive design allows the engineer and crew to simply move to the other end of the train, rather than turning it around.
But the trains' five-car "fixed consist" also will make it difficult for Amtrak to add cars. The Turboliners will seat approximately 260 passengers, but during busy times, such as the Thanksgiving holiday, "it's not uncommon to have 350 passengers" on trains between Rensselaer and New York City, said Amtrak's district superintendent for the region, Phillip Larson.
Inside, the refurbished passenger cars are much like the newest Metroliner cars Amtrak already uses for about half of its upstate New York runs. Interiors are more plush than on older trains, with more leg room, electrical plugs for laptop computers, and lighted message boards that can display information about upcoming stops.
The main changes are mechanical. The new turbine engines are smaller, more powerful and more fuel-efficient than those they replaced. An alternate power system also allows the trains to run on third-rail electrical power in the New York City tunnel system.
Because of the engine's compact, portable design, Jim Shelgren, general foreman of Amtrak's Rensselaer maintenance facility, said, "if the engine blows up, you can replace it in a few hours." On other trains, repair jobs can take a locomotive out of commission for several days or more, he said.
But Amtrak officials and technicians say the very complexity and uniqueness of the new trains make them cautious about adding them to the regular fleet too soon.
"A lot of the technology is going to be new to us," said Shelgren. "We don't know how it's going to hold up."
One Amtrak machinist, who asked not to be identified, said detailed mechanical blueprints and manuals are all-the-more essential in unfamiliar equipment. "Otherwise, we don't know how to troubleshoot," he said.
Amtrak's Stessel declined to predict just when the trains will start carrying passengers.
"New York state wants these trains; they will have these trains," Stessel said, "but as the operator, we need to make sure we have the parts, the manuals and the training we need to operate these trains safely, reliably and efficiently."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the article! Having never ridden a Turboliner, I am following this story with interest so I can hopefully ride them (and photograph them) sometime in the future.
---Brian
www.railfanwindow.com
There's one of the ORIGINALS running the Hudson line and it's a pretty good train. Alas, the new ones are not like the old ones and therein lies the rub ...
>>>Boardman fumed during an interview earlier this month. <<<
And I am guessing that BOARdman is one on Brunos lackeys. I cannot wait for Kevins comment on this.
Peace.
ANDEE
Heh. Boardman IS indeed ... wherever there's mayhem and major financial bloodletting of YOUR tax money, count on Bruno to be there. :)
Just another day in Rennselaer county though. Silly me, I always thought republicans were "RESPONSIBLE." Heh.
And if Amtrak ever gets off their ass and fixes the track like they were supposed to years ago, what will their excuse be then??? Wrong color? Doesn't go 'Choo Choo'.
This is starting to get pathetic. NY state should just buy up the ROW and run the damm service themselvs and kick Amtrak off the hudson line, entirely.
And if Amtrak ever gets off their ass and fixes the track...
Except that Amtrak doesn't own the track, MTA and CSX do.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
MTA is out of THAT pie, it's strictly our new Treasury Secretary, John SNOW who owns those tracks, and BRUNO was supposed to pay for it. He GOT his train station, now the high-speed trains can go straight to hell, it's AMTRAk, NOT BRUNO TRAILERLINES ... Until Amtrak changes their name to Brunolines, then not a PENNY for tracks.
Bottom line, those Turbo trains are ALREADY planned to run between Rensselaer and Saratoga between the two Job Bruno train stations. The financial charges went to NYC, but the TRAINS will run in Rennselaer. Once again, screw YOU NYC folks, it's BRUNO'S trains ... and Paturkey won't go up against the Bruno because he has no ball bearings ...
Budget contains ZERO for tracks, ZERO for turbo trains, and NYS is going to stiff Amtrak on the subsidy. Once Amtrak's gonads are back in the vise, look to ALL Amtrak service ending between NYC and "upstate" ... but those nifty new trains WILL run to Joe Bruno STADIUM ... for all 12 passengers wanting to go there ...
This TOO is a BRUNO project, and like the two rail stations Bruno built, nobody bothered to talk to Amtrak about THIS EITHER. Throw the money, get the camera time for "creating local jobs" and walk away to the next glad-handing photo op without any regard to what happens. Amtrak isn't asking for anything out of line - once these trains are turned over, they become Amtrak's problem ... it would be nice to have parts, part numbers and drawings. Any "car equipment shop" would expect THAT much ...
Shows you the level of stupidity you people keep electing though. :(
Thanks for the article! Having never ridden a Turboliner, I am following this story with interest so I can hopefully ride them (and photograph them) sometime in the future.
---Brian
www.railfanwindow.com
There's one of the ORIGINALS running the Hudson line and it's a pretty good train. Alas, the new ones are not like the old ones and therein lies the rub ...
I rode thru the Lindburgh station on my way to the peach drop the other nite and noticed that there is alot of construction going on on the northbound side of the station. It looks like they are adding a platform to the outside of the northbound tracks in addition to the existing center platform. What are they doing there? What will the final configuration be? Rob?
I don't know about the consturction, but I'm interested in this peach drop. Is this like the crystal ball drop in Times Square? In Wilkes Barre, PA, they drop a diamond. Luckily, Scranton, PA hasn't copycatted anything like this yet.
---Brian
The peach drop is held in downtown Atlanta and is like the ball drop in Times Square. Little Richard performed, shutup!, and they had some other local bands too. The peach looks like it is made of styrofoam or wood, sits atop a 50 or so foot pole, and drops just before midnite.
It doesn't compare to Times Square though, I did that in 2001. No one can put on a show like the big apple!
And no, the peach drop is not like the David Letterman watermelon drop. That would be cool though.
And Raleigh, North Carolina has the giant acorn... since they are the City of Oaks (although many of us think it's really because the Legislature, the Governor, and the Council of State are all a little squirrely...).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I lived in Atlanta many years ago, but never remembered any New Year's "Peach drops" when I was in High School.
Hello all
The construction is part of the Lindbergh "T.O.D" or Transit Oriented Development. Bellsouth (the local RBOC)is building two office towers on top of what used to be the station parking lot, and there is a main street between the two with ground level retail which feeds into the station. Residential is planned for the other (west) side of the station. The station is undergoing major modifications as part of this project. What is interesting is that this is the first time since the North Line opened in the 5-points station that a station has been under contruction on MARTA while it is still in service. Get your pictures while you can!
-Paul "Atlanta Transit" Grether
A rail buff's dream...
Hey everyone, I'm back from 30 degrees C Sao Paulo and in 30 degrees F A-town. Damn, how easy it is to forget about cold weather :-) Full report from me within a week.
In addition to what Paul said, the main purpose of the station work is to increase capacity to the station for the expected increase in ridership once all the TOD is completed. The northbound tack is getting a new side platform, the mezzanine is being expanded and a commuter parking deck is completed. The mezzanine expansion means that half the station is going underground, while the south half stay in an open cut. So now, the station layout will be one island platform and one side platform. The northbound trains will open doors on both sides, while the southbound trains will continue with what they already do.
I forgot to add, I took many photos of the construction back in the spring/summer, it's been many months since I've been on that part of on MARTA, so I don't know how far they are with the work.
Well, it ain't a Triplex, but that R32 is brand new. How different is this scene today?
I know this picture was taken from the Coney Island bound platform of 86th Street, Brooklyn. Look out California, they are going to have an earthquake now when Fred sees this pic.
Great pic Paul, You made my day. I only wish it was a more close up of a picture. But not bad at all.
I was restless this morning and took the PATH train to Newark for the first time in a couple of months.
I was surprised to find that the NJT Shoppe will be closing at the end of the month and is selling everything at 50% off. Everything.
Oddly enough, I had been musing on getting a PCC powered car. I bought 2 cars one with sound and the other without. I actually wanted 2 without sound, but they only had 1 without sound left. They still had at least a dozen with sound in stock.
Also a surprise was finding the NJT bus banks at a really good price. I bought a couple of MC9's for $5 a piece.
Someone had bought up a load of books this morning, so there was not a lot left.
Oddly, today was the first day of the sale, and I just stumbled onto it.
You're so lucky. Where in Newark is this store?
---Brian
Newark Penn Station. Access is via Track #5.
That's neat. I haven't been to Penn Sta Newark in a while. I guess the store wasn't there then.
--Brian
Brian,
The store is in a lousy location. If you didn't know where it is you would miss it. The just stuck it in.
It is on the mezzanine between escalators from PATH platform H (Inbound). If you are over by the entrance the Newark City Subway you might see the sign indicating to take an escalator up one level.
Maybe they are going to move to a better location? Like Penn Station New York? I'd love to buy the full-size NJ Transit system map. Do they have those for sale?
---Brian
The few times I was able to stop in I didn't see any.
Yes, and their hours are just PATHETIC! 8 to 4 Mon-Fri AND NOT even open on the weekend. Saturdays and Sundays are prime times when families could have gotten over there...certainly the store would've made money....just dumb planning.
I was there, too, completely by coincidence, and I picked up a couple of Corgi PCCs since the opportunity presented itself. About what time were you there?
-Robert King
Robert... I stumbled into the place about 10 AM. I didn't know about the sale either and I am quite happy with what I bought. I'm glad you found it also.
I got a cell phone report about a 1/2 hour ago from Mark W. and Mike P. from the Newark Penn Station....they reported that the NJT store is SWAMPED with customers (no doubt thanks to the reporting here at SubTalk of the store's demise).
Now's the chance to get those MTH and Kay Line models at seriously reduced prices! Good Hunting eveyone!
PS: Be aware that the store's NEW hours for the duration will be: 11:30 a.m. to 4 p.m. (NOT 8 a.m.)
"(no doubt thanks to the reporting here at SubTalk of the store's demise). "
Of course Doug. This is "The Source".
Paul -- as in heypaul -- called me this morning to inform me that the New Jersey Transit's gift shoppe is apparently due to close at the end of the month...everything is 50% off!
What did they expect? It was in a lousy location and the hours were horrible.
NJT should have taken an example from the TM Gift Shop in GCT. The location is very good and the hours are long enough to cover the AM and PM rush.
Did any of you see the crowds in the store last week? True a lot of it was to see the model trains but the line at the counter and the amount of people looking and choosing the merchandise was unbelievable.
But they raised the prices on the posters and wall maps. :( And they finally got those whale posters back in stock (from the R-142's) but they want $13 for them!!!!!! I'd rather just steal one off an R-142 than pay that kind of money :) So I put it back on the shelf, grabbed a few Multilingual September 2002's, and left.
---Brian
Brian, I just noticed you changed your handle....so do railfans come up to you and stare at you? (now that you're 'Railfan Window').
Watch out -- with that handle, Salaam is likely to set up a camera and tripod in front of you! LOL! :)
We were at NYTM store in Grand Central on Dec.21 - it was MOBBED. The line had to be 20 people long. And what was the big seller? BEARS! Yep, the beanie bears. They had completely sold out of L Bears (we found a couple in the bin), and V Bears were also gone - I got four of them, an A, L, Q and #5. It was blissful mayhem.
wayne
If the shop closes, will I still be able to purchase stuff on-line or will that be eliminated too?
Not sure....but I would think that they would still sell their exclusively NJT items either via the web or phone orders.
Not sure....but I would think that they would still sell their exclusively NJT items either via the web or phone orders.
Too late. All references to the shop have been deleted from their web site.
An extraordinarily petty move on the part of NJT, when MTA and SEPTA can afford them, and they have financial problems too.
The MTA put a stipulation on the TM Stores - they had to become self sustainting to a certain degree. I think that the stores exceeeded the expectations.
WHERE is IT?
and.. Do they sell numberplates, too?
did he have a sock in his mouth too ?
lol
When is the scheduled reopening date of the Transit Museum in Brooklyn?
What is supposed to be new and different?
The planned RE-opening of the Transit Museum was scheduled for April of this year, but I have heard that there might be a delay in that target date.
[What is supposed to be new and different?]
Air conditioning and heating installations. Also, some new or rearranged exhibits, particularly the bus section (rear of the mezzanine) and the platform level.
BTW, this has GOT TO BE the most asked question at SubTalk. If someone asks it again, I think I just might go CRAZY!!!!
When will the TM be opening again?
My fault.
LOL! Thanks for the link, Chris....
The ADA access will be improved from what it was.
im not sure myself, but i was a volunteer tour guide at the museum, so when they call me telling me its open, i will be sure to let you guys know
In all the discussion of how to serve JFK, we've gone over why it's expensive to tunnel down the Van Wyck to JFK, why the A train shouldn't be split endlessly, why the Rockaway Line would be trouble, etc. etc.
It did occur to me that there is a line which is not yet split, which could tolerate a split without significant reduction of service, and which could also serve JFK.
Why not the J train? Split the service - one branch goes to Jamaica Center, the other to JFK. Could the J-Airport split off onto Sutter Blvd (or subway under Sutter), then follow Rockaway Blvd?
This would also have the effect of supplying quicker subway access to the airport from lower Manhattan, and of course could result in new subway stations in various neighborhoods which need new subway service.
It won't happen, I know, but it'sjust a thought...
Do we want 8 car trains going to the airport though? And then would the J train to Jamaica end up making all stops rather than being a skip-stop? You can't fit the J/M/Z and then this airport train into 30TPH over the Willy B. I know this is just a thought, but these are some more reasons why it can't happen.
Nothing wrong with 8-car trains in the airport. Instead of having a short station at each terminal, have half as many long stations. Build passageways at each station to the two adjacent terminals.
"You can't fit the J/M/Z and then this airport train into 30TPH over the Willy B."
You mention an important consideration.
I neglected to memntion that there is already a "branching" of the J - it's called the M train.
An interesting idea, but the J makes a lot of stops en route to Manhattan, and it only serves a small slice of Manhattan once it gets there. What's appealing about the A is that it has a nice express run in Brooklyn but it runs the entire length of Manhattan (give or take a mile) and has transfers to every other line in the system except the 6.
Also, unless combined service is doubled, Jamaica line service to Jamaica Center would be reduced and the TA would have to give up trying to divert E passengers to the J/Z.
But I'm glad you haven't ruled out the option of running a subway line directly to JFK.
But you'd return J/Z to ideal local/express sharing, like the 4/6 are now: J is local only into Woodhaven, then it goes express and Z picks up local further in (and, in my opinion, takes the Chrystie connector into midtown instead of that downtown nonsense, but that's a story for another time). Not that the Willy B and three track give you much capacity even with the J passing up Z locals, but it beats skip-stop.
Of course, there's always Elias's previous suggestion of having the A/C and J/Z switch tracks at E.NY so that our new high-volume JFK turnoff, plus Jamaica traffic, is all going through the Fulton tunnel instead of over the Willy B.
"An interesting idea, but the J makes a lot of stops en route to Manhattan, and it only serves a small slice of Manhattan once it gets there. What's appealing about the A is that it has a nice express run in Brooklyn but it runs the entire length of Manhattan (give or take a mile) and has transfers to every other line in the system except the 6."
Yes, true. The J would cater to lower Manhattanites primarily, and folks in Brooklyn.
An analogous idea would have been extending PATH to EWR and offering express or skip-stop service from WTC (before it was bombed). That would (from New York's point of view) have been basically a Wall Street-financial center airport line.
Of course, 33rd Street and NJ customers would also benefit , and PATH is studying such an extension. I hope it happens.
Any idea to extend service to the airports also should take another factor into account. Airport traffic is down, way down, from pre-9/11 levels, and the extent and timing of any recovery remains an open question. Many travelers, both business and leisure, have switched to driving for shorter trips, shorter in this context meaning anything up to several hundred miles, and in many cases are in no particular hurry to switch back to flying because they've found that driving suits them just fine. Similarly, a number of businesses have switched to videoconferencing as an alternative to flying and find it more than suitable. My point is that because air travel is likely to remain depressed for many years, spending scarce resources on transit extension to airports may be inadvisable.
If the Airlines were to focus once again on why they were in business, that is to SELL SEATS AT A REASONABLE FARE, they'd be OK. JetBlue is doing a booming business. They're stuffing 'em in six abreast on their Airbuses because they are giving their customers what they WANT. I flew JetBlue to Tampa recently for $160 round trip. Try THAT on Delta or AA! Plus, Blue was ON TIME both ways and both planes were FULL in the middle of the week.
If the airlines want to increase ridership they must do what the MTA (and JetBlue) did: Offer fare-based incentives and more service. Then transit to the airport will serve a flying public beyond its most wildly optimistic projections. In other words, transit to the airport depends on what the airport's tenants are willing to do to make it work.
There are several different issues in this group of posts.
(1) Will air traffic recover soon? I think it will, for the reasons JayZeeBMT mentions - the low-cost airlines are doing well. And that means a new breed of less affluent air travellers, the very kind that might use transit to airports.
(2) Should rail links to airports be constructed? Well, marginally justifiable ones might get put on hold. Decent access routes to NYC's airports are not marginal, they are essential. It is absurd that among the world's major metropolises, NYC has the poorest access to its airports. (Well, o.k., Moscow. But Russians are so poor these days that presumably relatively few of them can afford to fly anywhere.)
(3) But the AirTrain is nearly finished. The tragic accident will delay its opening, but it will open. Many subtalkers don't like it. Myself, I take the view that half a loaf is better than no bread. If it's open next time I come to NYC, I'll use it.
(4) So the question is, do we need *another* rail access to JFK? Answer - at the moment, probably not. Let's wait and see how well the AirTrain does. I believe the Jamaica end will be more useful then the Howard Beach end, because the subway service at Howard Beach is too sparse. Jamaica is a proper transit hub, and Howard Beach isn't.
(5) The Newark monorail is also already there. But the NJT train services from the airport station to NYC are not really frequent enough for an airport service. So a PATH extension to the airport would be a really good thing, bringing a frequent airport-Manhattan service. Like Ron in Bayside, I hope it happens.
(6) Clearly, the crying need is for rail access to La Guardia. Maybe subtalkers should stop moaning about the AitTrain and dreaming about the old LIRR ROW, and start effective campaigning for subway access to LGA!
Yes. But... And LGA connection should not be a SUBWAY connection, but rather an LIRR or possibly PA operation.
The ROW should use the Hell Gate approach, and then follow the GCP ROW to the Airport. Only about two miles of track need be built that way, all of it over existing high-traffic ROW (the non-NIMBY route!)
Access then is to NYP and GCT (via eas) possibly to WTC via my NJT-LIRR plan. *THAT* would give LAG direct access to EWR, while an extension of the Air-Train from Jamaica to LGA via Van Wyck completes the picture.
Besides, If I am elected mayor, I'll close the airports to Albany-Boston-Washington flights. Let 'local' passengers take the train!
Elias
"1) Will air traffic recover soon? I think it will, for the reasons JayZeeBMT mentions - the low-cost airlines are doing well. And that means a new breed of less affluent air travellers, the very kind that might use transit to airports. "
I hadn't even considered that aspect - you are very sharp!
"4) So the question is, do we need *another* rail access to JFK? Answer - at the moment, probably not. Let's wait and see how well the AirTrain does. I believe the Jamaica end will be more useful then the Howard Beach end, because the subway service at Howard Beach is too sparse. Jamaica is a proper transit hub, and Howard Beach isn't."
If true, Howard Beach was easy enough to connect.
"(6) Clearly, the crying need is for rail access to La Guardia. Maybe subtalkers should stop moaning about the AitTrain and dreaming about the old LIRR ROW, and start effective campaigning for subway access to LGA!"
Yes, indeed.
Look, we know some (a few) railbuffs are just that - they long for an obsess about issues like getting rid of modern subway cars and preserving the Budd Brightliners; they don't care about ADA compliance; I'll bet at least one would bring steam engines back onto the subway if he could.
On Subtalk, that's OK...
(1) Will air traffic recover soon?
Yes... they all rode Eurostar once, realised that Waterloo International is a ghastly station, got stuck behind a Connex South Eastern train and vowed next time to fly to Europe!
Seriously I don't know what the problem is with Eurostar and all it's airline style check-in and security balls. It's so much easier riding a train from Italy to Switzerland - you walk onto the platform, the train turns up (usually late), you get on it, it departs, slowly, they check your passports on board, and you arrive in Switzerland - simple. And Switzerland isn't even in the EU! I'd be much happier with Eurostar on a normal platform of Waterloo station (or even better, Victoria station).
(2) Should rail links to airports be constructed?
Definitely! I can't wait to ride the DLR to City Airport!
It is absurd that among the world's major metropolises, NYC has the poorest access to its airports.
I thought the bus from Leicester to East Midlands Airport would beat even Moscow for being poor! Okay... I suppose calling Leicester a metropolis is stretching the definition, but if you include Oadby, Wigston and Blaby and a few other places like that you might just squeeze 400,000 people... It can only get better when East Midlands Parkway station opens on the Midland main line!
On the subject of Leicester a VAL type metro like they have in Lille, Rennes and Toulouse would be a good idea! I think I'll draw up some sort of fantasy system...
(6) Clearly, the crying need is for rail access to La Guardia. Maybe subtalkers should stop moaning about the AitTrain and dreaming about the old LIRR ROW, and start effective campaigning for subway access to LGA!
Hmmm... or a pier could be added to LGA and they could have a ferry to Manhattan!
"Hmmm... or a pier could be added to LGA and they could have a ferry to Manhattan!"
The delta Shuttle has a pier and used to have ferry service. I believe it failed for lack of business. The midtown arrival point was on E 34th St., which has miserable access by public transportation (a very slow bus).
The rest of the airport terminal areas are not within walking distance of the water, even if you built pedestrian underpasses under the runways. You'd need an airport tram to the ferry. And while you're doing that, why not .....
The midtown arrival point was on E 34th St., which has miserable access by public transportation (a very slow bus).
Which idiot tore down the 34th St shuttle? (Was he in any way related to E_DOG?)
It had become fairly useless by the time direct service to Penn Station became available.
The Delta Water Shuttle is alive and kicking. It goes from Wall/Water Sts., E.34th Street, E. 60 St., Manhattan, to LGA's Marine Term. However it is subject to weather and sea states, so we still need subway access to LGA.
"However it is subject to weather and sea states,"
That's a good thing. With a god gale-force trip on the ferry, the passengers will be prepared and laugh off the "light chop" Delta Airlines' pilot tells them about apologetically.
Do you know what Delta stands for?
Doesn't Even Leave The Airport. Termninal located just down the road from (US)eless Airways.
Yes, we must consider that.
"My point is that because air travel is likely to remain depressed for many years, spending scarce resources on transit extension to airports may be inadvisable."
OK. Fortunately, AirTrain provided for airport transit without spending general tax money. Any further investments, other than doing the reconstruction of Howard Beach and Jamaica (already funded, contracted, and underway), should be carefully examined and perhaps not done. The abandoned Rockaway Line is, currently, at the head of the list of projects which should not even divert study funds for the foreseeable future.
I don't know quite how Sutter Avenue comes into this all... I presume you meant that the Airport Train continue straight on on Fulton St then along Rockaway Blvd rather than using the S-curve onto Jamaica Avenue.
There probably would be enough capacity for this if one didn't want more than 10tph. Even better you could get 18tph by taking the M train off the Broadway El somehow - anyone fancy the Myrtle El being rebuilt?
Well, 10tph is one every six minutes. That's not horrible.
Would it be pheasable to split the E off onto Jamaica Van Wyck, then into the parking center where a JFK shuttle can meet?
Think about it the E serves alot of NYC attractions and places where high volume passengers can board
Port Authority Bus terminal
Penn Station(Its not a long walk from the Path and the Empire State building)
Downtown
Midtown(Citibank plaza)
Queensboro Plaza
And let's not forget, the E has those track extensions south-east of its Parsons-Archer terminal, I'm pretty sure for an extension southward.
Yes - originally intended to ascend LIRR trackage to Rosedale.
The FRA forbids that now.
So if the FRA forbids that, they would have to build a new subway tunnel for the E, which would add more cost?
Unfortunately, yes. Creating a new elevated line wold never survive politically, and enlarging the LIRR elevated to add an isolated subway ROW would suffer the same fate, I'm afraid.
I thought the plan was to REPLACE the LIRR, in that case the FRA would not be a problem. Why can't all LIRR trains run through St. Albans?
>>I thought the plan was to REPLACE the LIRR, in that case the FRA would not be a problem. Why can't all LIRR trains run through St. Albans? <<
They can. The LIRR refuses to give up the Rosedale trackage because it fears losing the operational flexibility of having 2 ROWs. This is a case where MTA's management should overrule the LIRR.
I don't see why not but it the extension isn't really made for airport service, its supposed to go to SE Queens. It does have high volume and it cold run nonstop to JFK Airport and would provide more service than the A, therefore creating a alternative for Manhattan passengers rather than going through Brooklyn on the A.
In theory, you could bring the E above-ground at Jamaica Ave.and connect it to the elevated AirTrain ROW down the Van Wyck into the airport. Is that what you mean? The AirTrain system is supposed to be compatible with "B" Div. rolling stock.
That's possible to do, theoretically, as long as the voltage supply, third rail, ROW turning radii and clearances are compatible. I'll leave aside the legal stuff and the politics for now...
Well, I guess there *is* a reason why that idea is "outside of the box", and that is probably the best place to keep it.
As much as I love the (J) line (for rail-fanning) it seems to me to be an endlessly long line on a particularlly useless route. Now if it were a four track line, straightened out a bit, and run like a *real* subway, then maybe the neighborhoods it serves would have evlolved differently, and it would be a meaningful route again.
Which is another way of saying, if you need that much subway out there, you will need to build a whole new system from the ground up.
Hey, did I ever tell you about my Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway?
Elias
I never understood why *JAY ZEE* takes that 90 degree turn at Elderts Lane instead of the more obvious route straight down Jamaica Avenue to ENY. I always thought a station called "Force Tube Avenue" would have been too cool!
The original Brooklyn Elevated Railway ran along Fulton Street and turned north onto Crescent Street and then ENDED with a Cypress Hills station over Crescent Street.
Fulton Street made more sense than Jamaica Avenue because Jamaica avenue has a park and cemeteries on one side. The eastward extension, which also involved tearing down the old Cypress Hills station was built in 1918.
Fulton Street made more sense than Jamaica Avenue because Jamaica avenue has a park and cemeteries on one side.
waddayou mean, the dead can't ride the subway!? They VOTE, don't they?
: ) Sheesh
Yeah, but talk about leaning on the doors!
The J/Z takes the 90 degree turn AT Cypress Hills, not Elderts lane & it really slows things down alright. I'm not sure the el would be wide enough for 2 tracks w/stations if it were via Jamaica Av from Crescent St to Bway Junction. I'm hoping they upgrade the Jamaica el one day to make it faster at the slow points & building the flyover middle express track.
However, Jamaica Ave. from Crescent to BJ (hee hee hee, see the post about vendors in the subway) is 60 feet wide curb to curb, according to NYCDOT. This should be plenty of room, as the 3-track segment of el over Crescent St. is over a 60' street as well.
My think on this is to break the current (J) train before it turns north into the Cressent Street Curve, and continue it north to Rockaway Blvd, and supply it with a proper terminal. Change the name of this train to the (JJ), and it runs Local all the way to Broad Street (or whatever).
Build an new track directly on Jamaica Avenue as it leaves the Broadway Junction Yard, and it connects to the orphaned east end of the line. It is called the (J) train, and it is an express in the rush direction at all times.
I do think that that is the best you can do with this line. It should be enough.
Elias
And in these days, building new els isn't desired. On the Crescent curve, it barely fits 3 tracks. It would be the same way if it were via Jamaica in that section; then you have to install stations too, which could fit but would be about the same as on Fulton[except with the extra track not as a flyover if this is your layout].
I would extend the E over the J/Z to JFK. Its more sensible since the E was designed to go to SE Queens in the first place so why not bring the E. Using the old LIRR ROW from QB would still be the best service for a new KFK subway line but building the AirTrain severely limits that possibility so the E proposal could be a backup.
>>>Boardman fumed during an interview earlier this month. <<<
And I am guessing that BOARdman is one on Brunos lackeys. I cannot wait for Kevins comment on this.
Peace.
ANDEE
Heh. Boardman IS indeed ... wherever there's mayhem and major financial bloodletting of YOUR tax money, count on Bruno to be there. :)
Just another day in Rennselaer county though. Silly me, I always thought republicans were "RESPONSIBLE." Heh.
I'm back home in utah and I had fun , I got to ride the redbrid for the last time the next time I be back to N.Y. is in July and by then they sould be retired . Happy New Year.
Traxdt, Light rail operater
Can you please give us any firsthand information on UTA TRAX expansion? What proposed lines are next for construction? TRAX is one of my favorite systems. I love the mountain views from the southern portions of the line. I just can't wait until there's an airport line so I can ride it more easily during my occasional long layovers in Salt Lake City.
Mark
The mediacal ex. is about 60%done and our 7 newcars sieman is due in aug. the next ex. is to west valley city. in late 2003
Will the West Valley City extension serve the airport?
Mark
no
Is a line to SLC airport in the works anytime within the next decade?
Mark
Now as I see it, every time we try to take a railfan trip (or ride a train for that matter) when it is raining from the start brings curses, ever since that "rainy day long ago" scenario with a still, AMTRAK train at Metropark and the unknown diesels passing us northward.
My mom and I decided to take a railfan trip to travel throughout the Subway. We came to take the 12:09p express to New York from Metuchen. Passengers who already were waiting at the platform heard the manual announcement (female) that all westbound trains were operating up to 30 minutes late. A train arrives s/b 15 minutes late on Track 4 and continues south.
Another announcement we heard was that the next westbound train would arrive at the lower-level platform.
Concerned about our train, (they kept announcing westbound, not eastbound, it was already 12:30p) Meanwhile, two AMTRAK trains pass by southbound, including an Acela Express. A whole heap later, another NJT westbound comes in at Track 3 for the low platform.
They announced the lateness of the westbound trains at least once more and the passengers were tired of waiting. It is almost 12:46p, which was the next scheduled, eastbound local. At 12:47p, our train comes, going at the normal rate until the restriction of the Elizabeth "S" curves. (NJT personnel STILL collected our tickets despite the big delay)
The engineer blows his horn numerous times while going at a steady 30-35mph or so. Lo, and behold, we saw the cause of our problem. An NJT train going southbound inadvertently "clipped" the trolley wire. IIRC, it happened very close to when locals westbound switch over to Track 6 from Track 4 because now there are six tracks for Linden and Rahway. The trolley wire that was cut was making a big hangover loop toward the top of the train, as a few, orange-vested workers stood still for us to pass. (The auxiliary and messenger wires were intact)
The poor train had all of its pantographs lowered to the very bottom, except for the supposedly last car. It was kind of spooky to see a train unlit (LCD's, lights out) during operation. (The train was stopped near the switch)
A pair of connected GP40PH2's came to rescue the train with its bells ringing (#'s 4300 and 4146) down Track 4. Our train stopped at Elizabeth, then continued normally to New York.
Questions:
1) When there are announcements of big delays, why isn't the cause of the problem stated?
2) Why does NJT inadvertently cancel its train(s) without notifying the public? (Our 12:09p express was canceled and the local came on time, still had tickets collected) NJT must assume some responsibilities for the troubles IT has caused.
3) What causes only the trolley wire of a catenary to clip and thus, lose power to the train? Did the train do it? If so, how?
4) If there is a rescue locomotive(s), where does the rescued trainset go to?
5) If a train lost power in this position, where would the passengers be rerouted? Or would they stay on the train and be moved with the rescue locomotive?
6) How is the catenary on the NEC (or any line) rigged up? It seems that if one catenary is taken out, the rest of the catenary (no matter how many tracks) are also shut down. (So as to refer to the CONRAIL incident on the NEC a long February ago)
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Not an answer, but by comparison, delays on the Metro-North New Haven Branch (the other catenary) are always announced by computer, along with the reason and number of minutes, as are cancellations. Reasons are "congestion," "a previous incident," "mechanical failure," and others. Catenary failures seem to happen due to branches or other outside "intruders" which are then tangled in a pantograph.
Dunno why NJT doesn't automate the announcements.
like the sleek look of the bi-levels on the LIRR in service today. I saw it for the first time during the night not too far from Sunnyside Yard on LIRR trackage heading toward the city.
There is a red, LED message on top of the end doors which I haven't been able to decipher from the road at which I was looking at the train. The lights are sharp and bright, and the fine steel gleamed over the mercury-vapor street lamp on the street.
1) Can anyone tell me which lines the LIRR operates its bi-levels on? (All of them have engines on both ends like Acela Express)
2) What is the red message on top of the end doors?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
They operate on the non-electrified portions of the line providing direct one seat service into Penn Station.
I believe the red message is the ending destination of the train so people get on the correct train at connecting stattions such as Jamaica.
1) Can anyone tell me which lines the LIRR operates its bi-levels on? (All of them have engines on both ends like Acela Express)
No, there are bilevels with cabs so they only need one locomotive and operate in push-pull mode.
---Brian
Right, they only need one engine on the Jamaica, LIC, or HuntersPoint Ave runs. But they do need two engines on the Penn Station Runs, if the engines switch from diesel to electric.
At this time I don't think too many runs go to Penn Station. I think it's only one or two round trips on each of the diesel Branches, Montauk, Oyster Bay, Port Jefferson. They never run dual modes on the Ronkonkoma to Greenport runs.
Most of the bilevels are not run with dual mode engines. They look the same, except of cource they have third rail shoes if they are dual modes. An easy way to tell if it's a dual mode engine or a regular one is that the regular ones are in the 400 number series and the dual modes are in the 500's.
The bi-level C-3 coaches are operated on all non-electrified lines. These are The Oyster Bay, Port Jeff, Montauk and Greenpoint. The trains w/ engines on both ends are the Dual Mode trains that can operate into penn station. The other trains are traditional push-pull with a C-3 cab car on one end and they are typically abour 3-4 cars long, forcing ppl to change in Babylon, Jamacia, Ronkonkoma etc.
Why do the trains with dual modes need engines at both ends while the diesel powered ones operate with only one engine?
It has something to do with a gap in the third rail contact going over grade crossings, swithces, etc.
Amtrak dosen't want a train to gap out in Penn Station and cause the proverbial traffic jam from hell. It is totally unnecessary as the trains are DUAL MODE and if one gaps out it can just rev up the diesel and gap back in.
It is totally unnecessary as the trains are DUAL MODE and if one gaps out it can just rev up the diesel and gap back in.
Well, you don't "rev" up a diesel in the tunnel, and they don't rev up instantly either. But the cars *are* MU'd anyway, so you might as well put some shoes on them, that way the train does not gap out and one locomotive can manage just fine thank you.
Sheesh... do I gotta do *all* of thier thinking for them ;-)
Elias
I don't think the cars are MU'ed. If they were you wouldn't need a locomotive.
I don't think the cars are MU'ed. If they were you wouldn't need a locomotive.
The cars can be MUd without having traction motors. After all, that *is* how control commands are transmited to the locomotives from the cab car, albeit they do not need to transport 750vdc from car to car. Deal is the *could*, and it sure and little fishes would be cheaper than another locomotive.!
Elias
Well the prototype bilevels (C1's) were MU'd in pairs, even though there were only 10 of them.
The only gaps are around the interlockings outside of the tunnel mouths and yes you can run diesels in a tunnel. The Detriot River Tunnel and that other CN tunnel in grand rapids have been dieselized for years. Not to mention such other notable tunnels as the Cascade and Hoosac.
and yes you can run diesels in a tunnel.
You *can* run them but you *may* not. It is AGAINST THE LAW to run diesel (or steam) locomotives south of 42nd Street. GCT tunnels are well ventilated and have little problem with diesels, the other tunnels are FREIGHT TUNNELS, not PASSENGER STATIONS!
You MAY NOT run diesels in the Penn Station Tunnels. (Ok, the protection locomotive *is* a diesel, but that is for EMERGIENCIES such as power failures and or fires.)
Elias
"GCT tunnels are well ventilated and have little problem with diesels"
But in fact no diesels ever run there except possibly in emergencies. I don't know if this is law or just standard practice. The locomotives running down to GCT are dual mode diesel plus third rail, and use the third rail power where it is available.
During the blackouts they didn't run trains pulled by locomotives to GCT. They terminated trains at 125th St.
"But in fact no diesels ever run there except possibly in emergencies. I don't know if this is law or just standard practice. The locomotives running down to GCT are dual mode diesel plus third rail, and use the third rail power where it is available."
In 1982, I took my first cab ride from NYC to Albany & back on AMTRAK FL-9 locos. I was not in the ab when the train left GCT so I don't know what mode it was in. I do remember running back to GCT in diesel mode - even in the tunnel. Of course, as I said, it was 1982 and it was AMTRAK.
True. I forgot. Amtrak locomotives out of GCT never had 3rd rail power. But MNRR locomotives have all had it as far back as my memory serves me (approx. 1960).
I'm not sure about MNRR dual modes using 3rd rail where ever it is available. I see the Hudson line trains near the Marble Hill station running on diesel on a regular basis; there is 3rd rail power available there.
All of the LIRR engineers that I've asked the question to have stated that they perfer to go to diesel mode as soon as they can. Most switch between the East River portal and Harold Tower.
Metro North like the LIRR switches right out of the tunnels into diesel mode due to the constraints placed on the engine. These dual-mode locomotives for the LIRR (DM30AC) and MN (P32ACDM) have the electric engine solely for the usage of running in the tunnels, and not for any other purpose. Using the electric engine in a outside territory puts too much strain on the third rail.
Chicago Cough Gag (aka Union) station is nearly itentical to Penn "open airness wise" and Amtrak/Metra are constantly idling a fleet diesels in it. Even though it is probably increasing lung cancer rates for Chicago area commuters the effect is far from deadly. Same goes for NJT AC Line geeps idling under 30th St. only since they only ever have one there at a time you barely notice the fumes it produces and that's only on the same platform as it.
Sometimes you can smell NJT's diesel at 30th Street, esp. when it's a little long for preventive maintenance. It's usually not a horrible smell in there, but diesel exhaust has more particulates in it than gasoline exhaust, so it's not good to be around it -esp. if you have asthma or an upper respiratory infection.
Chicago Cough Gag (aka Union) station is nearly itentical to Penn "open airness wise"
Not even so! the whole side is open to the river, and all of the passenger station is closed off from the tracks by sliding glass doors.
But be all of that as it may, what they could do and what the law permits them to do are two different things. And the history of the law is a textbook in convoluted private interest kickbacks ala who could but the most effective politicians.
Elias
NY Penn seems to be a ventilation nightmare. Stand on the east end of Track 17 at around 6:00 PM and you're in a haze of smoke. Rumor has it that this is the ventilation from the restaurant (TGI Fridays?) all the way over in the Amtrak waiting area.
I can only imagine what a few idling diesels would do down there...
CG
Bad! I was in a stalled train in the East River tubes last June in a dual-mode train when the train stalled. They had to start the diesels because they could not get the computers to reset. The smoke and fumes in the cars were so bad. Luckilly, the vents in the bilevel's fumed the smoke out. This was LIRR train #658 which leaves Penn Station at 4:19 which goes to Port Jefferson.
"The only gaps are around the interlockings outside of the tunnel mouths and yes you can run diesels in a tunnel. The Detriot River Tunnel and that other CN tunnel in grand rapids have been dieselized for years. Not to mention such other notable tunnels as the Cascade and Hoosac."
Once again, mikey, you have talked but have said nothing. To operate a diesel locomotive in an unveltilated tunnel is a violation of NYC law. Facts, mikey, facts.
That silly 1906 "exhaust producing" (before a diesel locomotive was even concieved of) ordinance is still in effect? Didn't it apply to the entire city? Shoudln't LIRR and Amtrak be running in electric mode from the city limits?
Didn't it apply to the entire city?
It applied as I have said, to Manhattan south of 42nd Street. That *is* why GCT is NORTH of 42nd Street.
The law was written (more or less) by PRR who wanted to keep the competition out of the city. North of 42nd Street in those days *was* out of the city. (more or less).
Elias
Then why did the NYC have to electrify its NYC area freight operations? Ditto for the New Haven down into Oak Point. Also, diesels were allowed. That famous CNJ #1 600hp box cab unit built by Alco worked the carfloat piers somewhere on southern Mahnattan. I think that the NYC bought their first Oil Electric locomotive for use in NYCity.
Why is the sky blue?
Because the atmosphere scatters blue light.
And by the way...a lot of things are illegal. Many towns make it illegal for freight trains to block crossings for over X minutes. Do the railroads care? No, they block the crossings anyway and take the $xxx.00 ticket as a cost of bussiness. So, if on the off chance that for some bizzare reason a DM hauled train becomes gaped in the middle of C interlocking and it revs up to move the 30 feet to get back on the juice and on the off chance that some NYC law enforcement official is on hand to witness the infraction, how much would Amtrak/LIRR be liable for?
If you multiply the probability of a summons being issued time the fine amount and then compare it to the cost of having 10 locomotives tied up unnecessarily I am willing to bet that it would be cheaper just to run the risk of running a single loco that if it gaps would just diesel itself to safety.
"And by the way...a lot of things are illegal. Many towns make it illegal for freight trains to block crossings for over X minutes. Do the railroads care? No, they block the crossings anyway and take the $xxx.00 ticket as a cost of bussiness. "
Or they ignore the ticket entirely. Since railroads operate under federal jurisdiction, they can legally ignore citations, summonses etc. issued by municipalities as unenforceable.
However, it is not always wise for a RR, esp. a passenger road, to piss off constituents unnecessarily.
Railroads tend to enforce their own rules rather closely. OTH: they are on their own ROWs, and they may try not to obstruct crossings and such, but it is the street that is crossing their land and not vice versa.
If this is a problem for a city, they are free to negeotiate and finance the construction of an overpass.
Out here, the RR has been unilaterly removing grade crossings, and erecting barricades in their place. Aint squat they can do about it either.
Elias
From the cases I have read the RR's have to pay the fine. The states can regulate railroads to some degree. NJ requires ATC on all its passenger lines, PA requires a toilet in every leading locomotive, etc.
THANK YOU ELIAS!
I think I proposed that like 6 months ago, only to have it pooh poohed by JM. Tell me that it's possible, just have the cab car have some shoes on it, all the other cars have a cable for 750 VDC, one serious cable with a width probably something like the air hose on most trains, but still doable. IIRC, JM complained that 750 VDC running below the passengers feet was not a good idea, what happens now with the M1,3, and 7? Does the contact shoe on those magically make 750VDC become 120VAC so it's "Safe" for the passengers? All you need is one car out of the train, preferably the cab car, to get the maximum gap clearance from the loco, to have maybe 4 pickup shoes, just like one of the DMs.
It'd be a great way to run off peak one-seat rides into some areas, I know the east river tunnels are a bit crowded at rush hour, but there must be gaps that new DMs could fit into off-peak, and theres probably less demand off peak, so 6 car trains would not be a problem. Also, you could have MN and LIRR gap cars, with the two different contact shoes. Both LIRRs and MNs would be bomba cars (would Shoreliners line up properly with LIRR's Kawasakis?), and special trains could be run Poughkipsee-Jamaica via Amtraks west side line and Penn. The bombardier cars would either have Over or Underrunning contact shoes, depending upon the engine, be it P32 or DM30 and the proper jumper to pass the watts on. Each train would have 3 contact cars, one matching the loco, immediately behind the cab car, and the other two, one just in front of the loco, and the other the cab car, with contact shoes opposing the loco. Actually, come to think of it, a line via west side wouldn't need MN electrification at all, so this wouldn't be needed, but it still could be used if or when a tunnel connecting Penn and GCT is built.
Anyone want to place a wager on whether MN will go overrunning, LIRR/Amtrak go underrunning, both parties look at it good and see that Catenary is the way to go, or just say 'screw it' and leave both systems alone and just operate equipment that can handle the change in 3rd rail, either a new contact shoe, or the railcar thing I described above.
think I proposed that like 6 months ago, only to have it pooh poohed by JM. Tell me that it's possible, just have the cab car have some shoes on it, all the other cars have a cable for 750 VDC, one serious cable with a width probably something like the air hose on most trains, but still doable. IIRC, JM complained that 750 VDC running below the passengers feet was not a good idea, what happens now with the M1,3, and 7?
Are you talking about me? I would have had no problem with that solution except maybe for the fact that it makes the cars harder to couple and uncouple. There are also problems with bridging isolated third rail sections. This could lead to serious accidents involving track and maintainence workers and might damage the power supply. Other ppl know more about it than me, but whenever I suggested a trainlegnth bus in the past that's the FlaK I get.
Did the Hi-Vs (Lo-Vs, too?) have train length connections with 600 volts? If NO, then end of question. If YES then how did the subway handle it?
In the early days of the IRT they did have train length 600V lines, but they also had special signals at every 3rd rail section break, so that if a train on a powered section approached an unpowered section it would stop to avoid bridging the gap and energizing the unpowered section.
That's the official reason, but given that Amtrak's Genesis dual-modes are never run push-me, pull-you style, I think Amtrak simply distrusts the DM's as locomotives. The DE/DM's cannot singly handle any train over 6 cars anyway. At least one of the dual-mode consists is over 6 cars.
The Amtrak Genesis P32ACDM is identical to Metro North one's.
And Metro North runs them Push pull with up to 8 cars.
I can keep schedule with one of those just as good as with two FL-9's.
The Fact is however Amtrak is very strict with their no Combustible engines in Penn or its tunnels. other than the rescue power at Tower C and Harold protect you will never see diesels run in tunnel.
The FL-9's were about last ones.
Wouldn't the third rail shoes be different? Or is that just a lie that the MTA told us all, and really the MN is just a messed up looking over-running third rail, and there are no problems, trains can now run down from the Harlem Line, through a new tunnel down park ave, to a special LIRR-MTA 34th st east side station, and out the penn tunnels! Just like SEPTA!
Just kidding, but do you mind if I ask how hard it is to change a shoe? Could Amtrak's P32DM-ACs run into GCT on electric, or could MN's P32s run into Penn with a minimal shop visit? Could the work be done in the field, like at a station stop? And finally, is there a way to make a shoe that can run under both over and under running third rails? It seems possible to me, just have a contact shoe on both sides, and a jackscrew to raise and lower the entire aparatus relative to the truck, up for overrunning, down for underrunning, suspention of the shoe would occur further out than the jackscrew. Crap I gotta go crank out the Patents!
AMTK locomotives have retractable collection shoes. They can be extended in either positon for over-rail or under-rail operations.
Elias
Technically they are tri-levels if you count the level that the doors and bathrooms are at.
It's like a split level house. Enter the foyer; walk either up or down a half-flight of stairs.
Damn, you beat me to it. I like the sound of "split-levels" for railway cars.
The Bayridge Branch is not electrified so how come non eletric trains are allowed to operate in the tunnels like in East NY. Is this rule for Passenger Trains only?
Is that tunnel ventilated?
If you have a ventilation plant allowing sufficient evacuation of exhaust fumes, you can operate a diesel locomotive within it.
Note that if the ventilation plant in the Lincoln Tunnel were to fail, the Port Authority would close it to vehicular traffic until repairs could be effected.
The law applies to Manhattan south of 42nd Street. Last I looked that did not include Bayridge. Do passenger trains run in that tunnel? Is there a STATION in the tunnel?
Elias
If I recall correctly, the only station truly underground is the Atlantic Av terminal.
And if Amtrak ever gets off their ass and fixes the track like they were supposed to years ago, what will their excuse be then??? Wrong color? Doesn't go 'Choo Choo'.
This is starting to get pathetic. NY state should just buy up the ROW and run the damm service themselvs and kick Amtrak off the hudson line, entirely.
And if Amtrak ever gets off their ass and fixes the track...
Except that Amtrak doesn't own the track, MTA and CSX do.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
MTA is out of THAT pie, it's strictly our new Treasury Secretary, John SNOW who owns those tracks, and BRUNO was supposed to pay for it. He GOT his train station, now the high-speed trains can go straight to hell, it's AMTRAk, NOT BRUNO TRAILERLINES ... Until Amtrak changes their name to Brunolines, then not a PENNY for tracks.
Bottom line, those Turbo trains are ALREADY planned to run between Rensselaer and Saratoga between the two Job Bruno train stations. The financial charges went to NYC, but the TRAINS will run in Rennselaer. Once again, screw YOU NYC folks, it's BRUNO'S trains ... and Paturkey won't go up against the Bruno because he has no ball bearings ...
Budget contains ZERO for tracks, ZERO for turbo trains, and NYS is going to stiff Amtrak on the subsidy. Once Amtrak's gonads are back in the vise, look to ALL Amtrak service ending between NYC and "upstate" ... but those nifty new trains WILL run to Joe Bruno STADIUM ... for all 12 passengers wanting to go there ...
Sorry about that, I got impatient. It looked like it was "taking forever" and I was going to get one of those "message timed out" prompts. So I clicked again.
As soon as you click "submit", I mean INSTANTLY, your computer transmits its IP packets to Dave's computer. And even if Dave's computer didn't act on the incoming packets instantly, your computer would: 1) not tell you about it; 2) would keep trying to get them across; and 3) would not give you an opportunity to abort the submit command.
The delay is not caused between your computer and Dave's but in Dave's computer processing the input, sorting into the data base, and then recalling it from the data base, making a new HTML page out of it, and sending that to your computer. So... you are waiting for Dave's reply and not for your data to be transmitted.
As for me, and my supreme impatiance.... I click the back button as soon as I transmit, or will scroll up to the top of the screen and continue reading the thread. I *know* what I wrote, and do not need to see myself in print right away. Also my post remains in the UnRead color, so when I come back again later, I can easily see if someone responded to my post.
Elias : )
> between your computer and Dave's but in Dave's computer processing the input,
That's a pretty simplistic view; it's not as if your computer is directly connected to mine by a single ethernet cable. There are lots of routers and telecommunication links between you and me; and the path that data takes FROM you TO me may not be the same as the path that data flows FROM me TO you. So the problem is not necessarily processing the post into the database, you may actually not have gotten the reply.
: ) I made it simplistic on purpose, though not, of course, to be demeaning. My 1000 page textbook on TCP/IP is just about one of the driest most boring tomes ever written.
Still, pressing the 'stop' button will not abort the transmission of an IP packet that has already been released.
Once you click the submit button, the application layer is done with the project. session layers, and network layers take over the job, and work unseen to the application layer.
The sending of a post is one transaction. The return of a reply is another transasction. On a fast connection it seems as one, but it is otherwise.
Boring, but also intersting. Fortuately, this is not TCP/IP-Talk!
Elias
"My 1000 page textbook on TCP/IP is just about one of the driest most boring tomes ever written."
Thomas Pynchon could have written this as the center of one of his novels, but also inlcluded enough crazy charcters, funny stuff, and general wierdness to make it readable.
Your post should remain unread even if you do get to the confirmation page. At least it does for me and Mozilla.
At least it does for me and Mozilla.
Works fine for me.... and I'm running Netscape 7.01... BTY the pop-up blockers are GREAT, and for that reason alone I ignore MSIE.
Elias
For what it's worth, "Click Once" also applies when nominating
any given poster to ye personal SubTALK Killfile..
I caught a song that I think is by rap artist Eminem that uses the 'clickety-clack' sound of a fast moving train as the backbeat to the lyrics. Has anyone else heard this?
Which song is it?
---Brian
I don't know the name of it, but I believe it's current and might be part of the album that came out when '8 Mile' was released.
I doubt that any recording studio would go through the trouble of recording sounds off a moving train when they could just use a synthesizer.
This TOO is a BRUNO project, and like the two rail stations Bruno built, nobody bothered to talk to Amtrak about THIS EITHER. Throw the money, get the camera time for "creating local jobs" and walk away to the next glad-handing photo op without any regard to what happens. Amtrak isn't asking for anything out of line - once these trains are turned over, they become Amtrak's problem ... it would be nice to have parts, part numbers and drawings. Any "car equipment shop" would expect THAT much ...
Shows you the level of stupidity you people keep electing though. :(
Even rail workers in danger:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-India-Train-Crash.html
At least its better than that one that killed like 300 people about a year back.
"Even rail workers in danger"
Not "even", "particularly". On most rail systems in the world, the employees are in greater danger of death than the passengers.
Yes, true. I was questioning whether Indian railway workers were more in danger than rail workers in other Asian countries, or in Europe.
Ron,
Did you already move to Kansas City? If so, do you know if they are still trying to build a commuter train service from Johnson County KS to KCMO Union Station? When I lived there 5 years ago, they were talking about this proposal. Also, are they still trying to build a LRT there?
A couple days ago, me and my wife went to Miami. We went on Metrorail from Government Center to Dadeland South, and the both of us noticed the line is impractical. The central Miami stations are away from the downtown (I realize there is a Metromover connection), and the Coconut Grove Station is quite a hike from the actual enclave. The stations are away from heavily populated residential areas, and does not stop in the heart of areas of interest (ie Little Havana and the center of Coconut Grove).
Does anyone in Miami know why this route was poorly designed? I enjoy riding subways and LRT of different cities, and in my opinion, New York City, Chicago, and Washington D.C. have the most practical routes (although D.C. does not have service to Georgetown).
Poorly designed? it gets ton's of rider's everyday so you can't complain. I love the Metrorail and the Metromover,ok I'll say it,I LOVE MIAMI AND I WISH I COULD LIVE THERE!!!....but I'm not rich so I can't...damn that suck's.
What is the daily ridership for Metrorail?
Well, I got a proposal for you....
I'll fund you a weekend stay in Miami if, on the way down, you make a quick stop in Kissimmee and "take care" of somebody for me...
don't worry, we'll dress you up like Mickey Mouse (or Minnie Mouse, or Goofy or whatever), so you'll be completely disguised.
Whaddayasay?
[but I'm not rich so I can't...damn that suck's.]
You don't have to be rich to live in Miami, BTW. But it does help to have some $$$ down there. :)
[...Coconut Grove Station is quite a hike from the actual enclave.]
NIMBY at work!! It's far enough away so that the filthy rich folks don't see it, but close enough for their domestic employees to use.
Just found out thier rail cars once rode on the los angeles red line
subway 2 nowhere back in 1993 when the red line first opened !
why the red line in los angeles used the rolling stock of miami
is a question i must ask someone here who is the expert on this
my second set of photos show the miami rail cars on the red line
downstairs ....1
Actually, the Miami and the Baltimore cars were a joint order from Budd. The cars are identical except the Baltimore cars have an end sign and the Miami cars don't.
All the platforms on both systems are islands and the operator's control is on the left.
LA's cars were built by either Breda or a Japanese builder. They just look similar.
Dan,
There's a GREAT example of 2 cities working together on a common cause, to save money by buying in bulk, per se.
Mark
here is proff of what i am saying
**********************************************************
the miami cars were here back in 1993 ....!.............?
SCRTD had to borrow the 4 Miami Metrorail cars because they didn't have enough of the Bredas on hand for testing (as I recall there was a problem with a Breda sub-contractor which delayed the delivery of the cars for awhile in late 1991 and early 1992. I got to see (and photograph) the 4 Metrorail cars at the Red Line open house at the yard in May 1992 (for those interested, the 4 cars were 126/127 and 141/142. I think the Miami cars were used for testing from the very end of 1991 until the fall of 1992 when sufficient Bredas had been delivered. They never operated in revenue service (although theye did carry media on a test run or two) and may have been back in Miami by the time the Red Line opened to the public on January 30, 1993.
"the Red Line opened to the public on January 30, 1993"....
i was there when it opened for the first time ..
no green line 105 freeway under construction ...
Sounds quite familiar here in NYC, much like the V line.
Sounds quite familiar here in NYC, much like the V line.
You are absolutely correct. The V line goes from nowhere to nowhere. It starts at the useless, poorly populated neighborhood of Forest Hills, then travels along the little-used Queens Boulevard line to Queens Plaza. After crossing into Manhattan at 53rd Street, it has a connection to the always empty, should-be-abandoned #6 train at Lexington Avenue/53rd Street, which unfortunately is nowhere near any major office buildings. The same can be said for the mostly-abandoned and obsolete Rockefeller Center that is two stops away. Starting at Rockefeller Center the V travels underneath 6th Avenue, which might as well be in Alaska for how far away it is from the center of the city.
Right, the V is definitely the most useless line in New York.
Yes and as long as they give G riders the finger and say "Screw you" with 4 car sardines and shorting rush hour service to Court Square, making commuters take a long walk through a long passageway, I will ALWAYS think the V line is the most useless, and worst line.
Until NYCT decides to bring the G line back to Forest Hills (pre 12/11/01 service pattern) during the day and shortening back to Court Square in the evening and weekends, I will not change my mind about the V line.
6 car trains on the G is a necessary improvement, but the only thing an extension to Forest Hills would add is inconvenience to a much larger group of passengers along Queens Boulevard.
"Until NYCT decides to bring the G line back to Forest Hills (pre 12/11/01 service pattern) during the day and shortening back to Court Square in the evening and weekends, I will not change my mind about the V line."
Fortunately, MTA is not about to do what you want, because then you'd hear what 900,000 commuters think about YOU (not good).
I don't want to make excuses so that 900,000 people hate my guts, I just want fairer treatment for customers on the G line. I really think that NYCT is shortsighted and should find a way to build two tracks (as they had planned 10 years ago but scrapped it for unknown reasons.) that run underneath Queens Plaza and have the G line end there 24/7 as a lower level terminal. It would make transferring easier to the E and V lines while retaining the direct transfer to the R line (lost once the V line went into effect.). Just two tracks with 2 side platforms will do the trick. Plus Queens Blvd local service will be unaffected and at that point, I can say positive things about the V line.
"I don't want to make excuses so that 900,000 people hate my guts, I just want fairer treatment for customers on the G line. I really think that NYCT is shortsighted and should find a way to build two tracks (as they had planned 10 years ago but scrapped it for unknown reasons.) that run underneath Queens Plaza and have the G line end there 24/7 as a lower level terminal. It would make transferring easier to the E and V lines while retaining the direct transfer to the R line (lost once the V line went into effect.). "
That is a nice idea. I posted that idea on Subtalk a long while ago, and wrote to the MTA asking about it. I was told by other Subtalkers that engineering constraints, like dealing with soil conditions, the slope required of a ramp to go under Queens Plaza, and other factors would make building a new terminal like that exceptionally difficult. I estimate that it would be a minimum $100 million job; I may be wrong about that.
However, G riders do deserve concessions. I wrote to MTA and testified at the announced hearings regarding two specific ideas:
1) Create an upgraded, fully ADA-compliant station cluster around Court Square which would incorporate the Metrocard transfers offered now and make the area safer, more "climate controlled" etc.
2) Create a Metrocard transfer between Lex/63 and Lex/59. Admittedly, you do need to ride escalators a lot to use it (and walk in between to boot) but it's better than nothing. I pushed this at the hearings, when every other speaker was mostly concerned about venting.
I was pleasantly surprised when I got a written reply from MTA validating both ideas. The "station cluster" would be done in stages, and the first stage was the moving sidewalk. The MetroCard transfer between the 63 St line and the Lex would be implemented, and marked on the new maps.
We're not done yet. I want to see MTA contuinue to make progress upgrading the LIC area stations.
Keep an eye on that, would you? And bug them if they get bogged down.
I congratulate you on your tireless efforts to wrtie to the MTA, speak up at public hearing, etc.
I noticed at the public hearing on the Queens Blvd line changes at LIC H.S., nobody spoke against the plan that would cut G trains service (at that time, 24/7 to Court Square only.), despite NYCT's efforts to publicize this hearing. Good thing that some strides are being made to make the G transfer less inconvenient, but more has to be done. If it were not for community opposition and letter writing to the MTA, then the Franklin Shuttle would join the ranks along with the Myrtle Ave and 3rd Ave els. as an abandoned line. Rebuilding the Franklin Shuttle was one of the smartest things NYCT and MTA has done in recent memory.
Public involvement can save subway lines, improve exisiting structures and will get results.
I agree with you. Good attitude. You can make a difference too!
Yep, that is useless!
The V line goes from nowhere to nowhere. It starts at the useless, poorly populated neighborhood of Forest Hills, then travels along the little-used Queens Boulevard line to Queens Plaza. After crossing into Manhattan at 53rd Street, it has a connection to the always empty, should-be-abandoned #6 train at Lexington Avenue/53rd Street, which unfortunately is nowhere near any major office buildings. The same can be said for the mostly-abandoned and obsolete Rockefeller Center that is two stops away. Starting at Rockefeller Center the V travels underneath 6th Avenue, which might as well be in Alaska for how far away it is from the center of the city.
Heh heh, if the city keeps raising taxes to pay for Medicaid, your posting may actually become true!
Please tell me I did not just see that.Man o man you SERIOUSLY better be joking cause I'm not gonna sit here and let you get a way with that!! Are you smoking crack or what in the damn hell is wrong with you!? What do I have do? beat the living hell out of every V hater I see untill nobody in the entire city complain's about the V? hmmm....I like the sound of that...heh..heh..heh..heh..heh. -grins evilly-
American Pig was posting satire, in case you missed it...
-snorts- I still don't like what he said.
He was agreeing with you. Go back and read it again.
Jeez, V Train, no sense gettin' your knickers in a twist ... even if Piglet weren't being sarcastic, one has to acknowledge, based on a dispassionate review of the situation, that the V is rather less useful than certain other lines.* That's all. Ain't the end of the world.
* = actually, than all other lines would be a more accurate assessment, but I was trying to put a semi-positive spin on things.
* = actually, than all other lines would be a more accurate assessment, but I was trying to put a semi-positive spin on things.
But if you said that, you'd have to add:
**bsed on an interview with a non-subway rider.
* = actually, than all other lines would be a more accurate assessment, but I was trying to put a semi-positive spin on things.
That V train is definitely much less useful than the Rockaway Shuttle, which serves the BUSTLING Beach 105th Street station among many other places. That Beach 105th Street must break records for high ridership!
Even ridership on the OLD Franklin Shuttle was much more than the V line today. And the shuttle has 2 car sets
Where do you get these numbers? The Weekly World News?
Where do you get these numbers? The Weekly World News?
Hey, I like the Weekly World News!
If you study the matter more closely, you might be able to determine that the turnstile count at Dean Street in 2002 was higher than the V train's ridership.
You should then write to MTA and share that with them.
Which means zero because there was no Dean Street in 2002.
At Dean Street the count was zero even when it WAS open. However if you counted the people OVER the turnstile or through the gates...
Do you want MTA's address for your letter?
NIMBY considerations, primarily. Metrorail is getting an extension from its northern terminal to the interstate which will help to some degree.
Remarkably, despite its route, people have learned to use it, and ridership today is pretty good for Miami standards.
MetroMover does help downtown.
V line helps get customers with a median income of over $100,000 a one seat ride to midtown.
G line helps get customers with a median income of $30,000 or less a NO seat ride that dumps you off somewhere in the boondocks in Long Island City, in addition to a long walk for the second train to midtown, rather thann a crossover to the other platform at Queens Plaza.
Now you've figured out how it works!
>>V line helps get customers with a median income of over $100,000 a one seat ride to midtown
Is this a case of YIMBYism? It's not necessarily fair, but I suppose it beats NIMBYism.
Mark
"V line helps get customers with a median income of over $100,000 a one seat ride to midtown. "
Where did you dream that up? Have you ever been to Queens? Why don't you visit Jackson Heights, Elmhurst, and apartment blocks in Forest Hills and tell me who there earns $100,000 a year, and then show me who's on the subway? I'm amazed you can actualy post that with a straight face.
"G line helps get customers with a median income of $30,000 or less a NO seat ride that dumps you off somewhere in the boondocks in Long Island City,"
Actually, LIC is now the scene of a lot of economic development. But you're right in that Court St area stations need improving - and they are getting it.
"in addition to a long walk for the second train to midtown"
Ignorant nonsense. It's a better transfer than the one between 53rd/Lex and the IRT, and it has a moving sidewalk.
The V service plan is about numbers. 900,000 daily riders on Queens Blvd. outrank less than 100,000 riders on the G.
I was a commuter on the Miami Metrorail in 1985 to 1987. I used to walk from my Condo and ride the rail from Dadeland South to Govenment Center. This was even before they finished the People Mover connecting downtown Miami. LOVED THE RIDE and used to smile all the way...especially when looking down at the vehicles "Bumper to Bumper" all along Dixie Highway heading North in the AM and South in the PM. The traffic jams were obvious from the Viscaya Station stop to Dadeland South stop in the evening and visa versa in the Morning. What was great about the Metro-Rail was it's cleanliness, speed and comfort. (If I am not mistaken they used mimimum security prisoners, after hours, to keep the stations in "Tip Top Shape"....Clean, Graffitti and Rat Free.
If my memory serves me right, each station has escalators and elevators to and from the station platform to the fare control area.
At that time I rode the MetroRail...from it's opening date, back in the mid to late 80's, a fare of $1.00 (Susan B. Anthony) would get you a one-way ride. Not only to work downtown on Brickell Avenue but also to Hialeah Race Track.
Miami has given me some real fond memories.
Amen to that. I lived in Coral Gables while attending the University of Miami's post-BA premedical program. Irode Metrorail from 86-88. It was a good ride. I got off downtown to catch a bus into Little Havana, where I would serve 1 shift per month with Miami Fire Dept's Rescue 7 as a volunteer EMT (I was on UM's First Aid Squad).
I am not sure why Metrorail takes the route it does in the downtown Miami, but south of downtown it runs along (well above actually) the old Florida East Coast (FEC) Railroad right-of-way (that once went all the way to Key West) which is just west of US 1, so that is why it doesn't go into the heart of Coconut Grove.
One thing to consider is that the Metrorail that is running today is but a fraction of the original system proposed. I have read that there was supposed to be a branch continuing north on NW 27th Av past where Metrorail currently turns west on NW 79th St (indeed you can see the provision that was made for this on the elevated structure supports), as well as some other branches. Currently there are proposals to build this branch (it would go up 27th Av to the Dade/Broward county line, serving, among other locations, Pro Player Stadium (home of the Miami Dolphins and Florida Marlins as well as the host of the Orange Bowl game), and others, more details can be found at http://www.trafficrelief.com/
Whether any of these will ever get built in our lifetime is anyone's guess, the 1/2 cent sales tax that was passed by Miami-Dade County voters last November, which went into effect on Wednesday will help that effort greatly, though the immediate focus is to improve current MDT bus and train service.
Yeah, there's some good news on the horizon. Metrorail will be extended to the insterstate. As for the new branches, we'll see.
As it stands,the only current extention that's gonna occur is to the Palmetto Expressway with 1 new station after Okechobee.It is almost done,hoepfully it'll open sometime this year.
As it stands,the only current extention that's gonna occur is to the Palmetto Expressway with 1 new station after Okechobee.It is almost done,hopefully it'll open sometime this year.
Here's a story from The Miami Herald about BayLink, a proposed light rail line that would connect Miami with Miami Beach:
BayLink Rail Plan Slowly Gaining Support
The story says that the light rail line would connect with a planned east-west Metrorail line which would connect downtown with the airport. I'd not heard of this plan before. Is this east-west line a likely reality? If so, do any of our Miami subtalkers think that these two new projects are good ideas?
I rode Metrorail once myself during a very short (a few hours) stay in Miami, but not enough to get real impressions of the system.
Mark
You can get more info on the East - West line as well as many other proposed routes for Miami's Metrorail at www.trafficrelief.com. Unfortunately, most of these routes will probably face NIMBY opposition as well as financing shortfalls.
I have lived in Miami for three years after moving from New York. I have noticed that Miami desperately needs public transportation to reduce the traffic on roadways. At current moment, my commute of 15 miles takes about hour to an hour and a half. However, if I decided to take public transportation right now, that would turn into two and a half hours minimum.
I point this out because this is the argument the general public takes towards expanding the Metrorail system. They can't understand how giving more Metrorail routes can save time. Although the public recently agreed to the People's Transportation Plan, it is beleived that most of the new money collected will go towards adding more buses and bus routes.
I guess time will tell. But I think I'll be retired and probably a long way from Miami before I see another Metrorail route opening.
>>I guess time will tell. But I think I'll be retired and probably a long way from Miami before I see another Metrorail route opening.
That brings to mind a question...do you think that given the large numbers of retirees in Florida, and given that with aging people sometimes lose the ability to drive, the need for good public transportation in Florida will become even more acute? Furthermore, since retirees often have more political clout than those who ride transit out of economic necesity, that seniors who can't drive could be a force for change in the transit picture?
Mark
That brings to mind a question...do you think that given the large numbers of retirees in Florida, and given that with aging people sometimes lose the ability to drive, the need for good public transportation in Florida will become even more acute? Furthermore, since retirees often have more political clout than those who ride transit out of economic necesity, that seniors who can't drive could be a force for change in the transit picture?
Possibly. In many cases, however, I would suspect that seniors who are no longer able to drive are too physically enfeebled to handle all the walking that transit use often requires.
"Possibly. In many cases, however, I would suspect that seniors who are no longer able to drive are too physically enfeebled to handle all the walking that transit use often requires. "
Not really. It depends why they are enfeebled.
Your not having the reflexes for safe driving doesn't mean you can't ride transit. Remember that in Miami, Metrorail is 100% ADA-compliant and the stations and subway cars have audio and visual aids. Also, the bus system is probably 100% ADA compliant as well.
That makes a huge difference.
And most retirees have stop retiring in Miami per se. Most retirees are now choosing more northerly areas in Broward and Palm Beach counties.
>>Most retirees are now choosing more northerly areas in Broward and Palm Beach counties.
So then will Broward and Palm Beach counties need better transit as their populations age?
Mark
Probably not Palm Beach. They don't actively try to expand. They like all their small communities and prefer that the hustle and bustle of a big city stay away from them. So their basic bus system does fine.
Broward county does have "proposals" for light rail to service the airport, the ports, and downtown Ft. Lauderdale. But they're a long ways away from any ground breaking ceremonies. Much less getting a system that goes off to the western portions of the county where most of the homes are.
And other states entirely....both the 'burbs of Vegas and newly developed communities in Arizona are the latest retiree 'hotspots'. Florida is highly overrated as many are no realizing.
"And most retirees have stop retiring in Miami per se. Most retirees are now choosing more northerly areas in Broward and Palm Beach counties. "
No, that's not exactly in context. Most retirees WITH THE MONEY TO AFFORD THAT go north. There are plenty of senior citizens in Miami proper, and their numbers are growing. My previous comment stands.
From what little information I was able to dig up, the route was designed using the path of least resistance. The idea of mass transit came up as a political issue and something needed to be created to fulfill a campaign promise.
What FYBKLYN1959 stated in his post is correct. South of Downtown, they built over the old FEC right of way. Since there aren't many homes in this area, no opposition.
It's East - West turn follows along the route 112 freeway and through industrial areas. Again, little opposition.
It's turn North - South travels through low income neighborhoods. These neighborhoods welcome public transit since owning private vehicles is not financially possible for many.
The last East - West leg is where I'm stumped. I have no idea why this alignment was chosen. I would have assumed the route continuing North to Pro-Player stadium would have received more ridership. If someone can explain that one to me, please do.
Exactly my point when this subject came up some months ago....the MetroRail makes a giant U-turn in Dade County. The rapid transit line dosen't even cover the poorer neigbhorhoods that would most benefit from this mass transit system.
It looks and runs nice, but it's a joke when compared to most other transit systems, particularly NYC, Boston and Chicago. Even the D.C. Metro does a better job.
Actually, the route resembles BART in some ways. BART is, roughly, a huge semicircle with some additional branches coming off it. The difference is, though, BART is much better situated in its environment and goes more miles, and connects to a superb Muni.
Does the BART run in a hugh semi-circle because of its terrain (i.e. the hills in Alameda and Contra Costa Counties?
I railfanned BART, MUNI Metro, and the Cable Cars 10 years ago, and I think the interconnections are excellent, with the exception of the CALTRAIN depot (before the MUNI Metro extension).
The connections are great.
Exactly how was the original routing determined? Dunno.
Old Tom, you're a little closer. Do you know?
It was smart for BART to create a line from Freemont to Concord to serve Oakland's CBD. Riding from Berkeley to Freemont during the evening rush hour, the downtown Oakland BART stations were extremely crowded.
Does Oakland have any plans to build a LRT?
Don't know - but I like the idea, generally.
Itink Oakland deserves a BART branch of its own...
Don't know - but I like the idea, generally.
I think Oakland deserves a BART branch of its own...
Also speaking of Miami rail transit, how come the Tri-Rail doe not go to the Miami CBD? Also, having more mid afternoon train service from Ft. Lauderdale Airport to Miami would be useful.
Not sure, it may be due to lack of track connections on the CSX line on which Tri-Rail runs (I don't follow freight railroads generally so I am unsure where exactly all the CSX tracks run).
The Tri-Rail is upgrading their tracks from Palm Beach county to Miami-Dade county so that the majority of the line will be doubletracked. This will be able to increase the frequency of trains as well as allow trains to "bunny hop" past freight trains.
Getting Tri-rail into the downtown area is not an easy prospect. Most of the tracks down there were meant for slow moving short freight trains and there are no locations suitable for a passenger station. There no "mainline" tracks that can be used as far as I know.
Where in Miami is the Amtrak station? Could it be of use to commuter trains? Is it already in use by Tri-Rail?
Mark
The Amtrak station is 10 miles away from downtown in the middle of Hialeah. Not exactly a commercial center of Miami (but there are proposals to fix that too.) Tri-rail shares these tracks as well and actually continue past this point a few miles south to terminate at the Miami International Airport station.
Currently under construction (you read right, something actually being built!) is the Miami Intermodal Center which will be located at the airport. This will encompass the current Tri-rail Airport station, provide a new station so that Amtrak can also terminate here, and create provisions so that the proposed Metrorail East - West route will have a platform as well.
In 1988, I took the Silver Star from Miami. Iremember the station to be a plain vanilla box with a passenger platform outside of it. Very unimpressive; however I had a gallant crew who really showed me a good time.
Well, that Amtrak station hasn't changed much. The link below is a page from the 79th Street Corridor Initative, part of the South Florida Community Development Coalition website. Once your on the page, click for the Photo Tour and then click on Amtrak. There are a couple of pictures there of the Amtrak station and it's surroundings.
Maybe it's me, but if I was coming to Miami from anywhere, this is definitely not what I expect to see when I get off the train.
http://www.floridacdc.org/79th/index.html
Yes, that's it. A glass box and a parking lot...
Interesting discussion thusfar.
I was in Miami 3 weeks ago, I took a ride on the system (Metrorail, plus all 3 metromover lines and Tri-Rail). It was a Saturday, but I was pretty impressed with the loads overall. The system does seem to "carry".
One thing struck me though, the station spacing on the northern part of the Metrorail route seemed much closer that the southern portion.
So it seems that planners thought pedestrian access would be more crucial in the northern part of the city. The stations were close enough to resemble a circa 1900 el, whereas south of downtown the spacing was more MARTA or WMATA like.
BTW... I also went to Tampa, the new TECO streetcar line is well worth a visit. Those ex-Milan (I think) compressors and trucks sure make all the right sounds!
Cars 9257-60 were transfered to Canaries Yard sometime yesterday. It look like since XMas and New Years are over the testing is going to resume.
Robert
Those are NOT R143 car number, these numbers are (I think) assigned to R33 Mainline, and may have been retired
TYPO, he means 8257-60.
wayne
How many R143's are not yet delivered/in service? I couldn't find a single R42 L train yesterday and I'm pretty sure the entire L line will be R143. I'm just curious as to when they'll start to appear on other eastern division lines (like the M).
I saw a trainset of R143's on the (M) late at night a few weeks ago, when it was operating as a shuttle between Myrtle Avenue and Metropolitian Avenue. (I was riding a (J) from Manhattan to Broadway Junction, and saw the (M) R143's as we passed through Myrtle Avenue.)
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
I know. Those are borrowed L trains which are cut in half for the shuttle to allow OPTO service. What I'd like to know is when will the R143 be assigned to the M fleet??
First of all yes I did make a Typo with the number, thanks for fixing it for me.
Second, I saw a list at ENY of cars inservice and yet to be delivered. From what I saw there are only 7 or 8 sets not yet delivered. As for the M get there own sets, it might within that next mouth or two. The TA still has to train the crew on the M line from them.
Robert
If that's the case, they'll have to start putting 4x4 conductor boards and tv cameras/monitors where needed on the M line pretty quickly!
Boards yes, TV Cameras/monitors no. The L line did not get the monitors on station where they are needed yet, only the R42's have them. TA think since the door are so senctive that they don't need them right away.
Robert
You mean Thursday? I boarded a R42 at my home stop, at the same time one was pulling in Canarsie bound. There was another right after the southbound at Sutter. That was three that I saw on my short ride to Bway Jct, where I met....... The next post.
Its 8257-60, NOT 9257-60; these are/were R33's on the IRT mainlines.
CANARIES Yard? Is that where the YELLOWBIRDS will lay up? ;-)
With a light snow falling early this morning, I thought I would head over to the Flushing Line and see some arcing. I was a little anxious about going that far, since I have not gotten the Jan 2003 edition of THE MAP, and was afraid that some route changes affecting my trip might have been made.
Much to my delight, I noticed that just north of the Kings Highway platform, there was a nice gap in the 3rd rail which spews sparks. Equally promising is that the express and local Q frequently meet at Kings Highway, giving me the opportunity to catch 2 trains arcing side by side.
I froze a couple of frames, but they don't capture the flavor of the spot. I zoomed in too close, and the shots are grainy. Also they fail to capture the arcing that occurs before and after the gap. I hope to go back there tonight and get some better shots.
I was also happy to bump into Lou Levinson on his way to work.
Kings Highway Sparks Flying
Zoom back a little and repost. The picture looks more like a forest fire than a train arcing.
I would agree that I zoomed in too much. However, I liked that it seemed more like a forest fire than a train arcing.
Here's a shot with a lot more bright arcing. Unfortunately the reflective sides of the slants and the 68's overload the picture. It would have been better with the triplexes and standards passing by.
http://photo.starblvd.net/paul3025/3-1-5.jpg
There is always something exciting to take a picture on the world famous Brighton Line, whether it's one of the oldest turn of the centuary control houses on Avenue H station (unchanged to this day), an exciting ride on the slant R40 (and sometimes and R40M) Q express while looking out the railfan window, or the arching pic you just took. It does need to be a bit clearer, all I see is the 3rd rail adhesion and the sparks.
Too bad our California friend who worships the Sea-Beach line can find a more exciting place to witness arching on his line.
Amen, Fred has been to Kings Hwy with me 2 years ago, and was impressed with the neighborhood, That is where he tried to pick up a 17 year old cashier at Edelman s Deli. Glad Paul is back on Line
You meant Adleman's deli off East 18th Street? Great place to eat
yUP, i JUST SPELLED IT WRONG
Yes! Another plus for our Brighton line, it offers great spots for picture taking too, not to mention the plaque at Newkirk for which the line is widely recognized :-). Also besides the Av H stationhouse, we got all different types of structures INCLUDING a 4 track el at Brighton Beach & Ocean Pkwy [boy we are spoiled 8-)].
I wish some R32's could make a return to the Brighton and/or the R42 but a R40/R40M is good enough.
Yeah, too bad our Sea Beach friend's line doesnt have the arcing or picture opportunities but he's repping his line and I respect that. Hey we rep our line too. Me, you, Brighton Exp Bob, Bill Newkirk and others are 'proud' to call the 'world famous' Brighton line our home line just like how Fred takes great pride in his Sea Beach.
And as a veteran of the Brighton line D train (though I lived on the other end) you can put me down as one who LOVED working that line, even at oh dark hundred. :)
Just a fact that the Brighton Line is the ONLY 6 track el in existence today (between Brighton Beach and Ocean Parkway!) Another plus for the best line in the world!
I told Fred about the plaque at Newkirk Ave station, thats what got him beat by me. Remember the posting yesterday about how he wants his Republican buddy, President Bush to declare his Sea-Beach a National Historical Landmark?
I wish Unca Fred luck in getting that declaration. Is there any OIL down there? Maybe by Ft Hamilton Parkway perhaps? Although ... there's a few underpasses on the Sea Bits that would make a GREAT "undisclosed secret location" ... :)
Oh yes, the 6 track el NO other line could claim that. Yeah, I read it and I thought it was funny. Sorry Fred, I have respect for your line but our Brighton beat you to a historical plaque by many, many years.
and I wrote I doubt Bush would ever ride the NY Subway, let alone the Slow Beach Local to Nowhere
"Hey we rep our line too. Me, you, Brighton Exp Bob, Bill Newkirk and others are 'proud' to call the 'world famous' Brighton line our home line just like how Fred takes great pride in his Sea Beach."
Let's not forget another classic view about the Brighton Line, not many people point out. The Empire State Building !
On the embankment portion between Sheepshead Bay and Ave H, a clear day or night would yield the Empire State Bldg in the distance. Sort of awe inspiring as I remember it clearly when I was a kid, nose pressed up against the railfan window on an R-32 (Q) express (mid 60's).
Bill "Newkirk"
a-men to that, I remember it well
I think Fred realizes that our line has far more subtalkers than his. He tries to make up for it all by himself. Doesn't help, though.
You mean this view?
http://www.railfanwindow.com/gallery/BrightonLine/DCP_0511a
---Brian
www.railfanwindow.com
Gorgeous! That view for a good part of the run up the line northbound was one of the delights of working the Brighton. Thanks for whipping that one out!
It would not surprise me if I rode with you as a kid on the Brighton. We used to board an M at Avenue U, go one stop to Kings Highway and catch the D express. It used to tick me off when we had to travel to Nassau St because we needed the M train. I couldn't reach the railfan window of an R27/30 or R32 for that matter. The D at the time was a majority of R42's, R40M's, an occassional R40 slant which was very, very rare, and an occasional R32. D train was my favorite until the TA started skip-stop service, eliminated the M, and until 2001, turned the mighty into a lowly local. Sorry, but the love of the D train had moved to the lovable 6 train. Used to love the 4, but when full width cabs were introduced on the R62, the 6 was the last East Side line with R62A's that still had railfan windows and my favorite R36 main line and WF cars.
If you don't mind mentioning, what was the time period you spent on the Brighton if unless you still run there?
I worked the TA for less than a year in 1970 and 1971 ... if you rode with me though, it was usually R1/9's I ran, an occasional 32. The "new cars" with air conditioning usually ran with more senior people, some of which would take a shoe paddle to ya if you even SUGGESTED that they'd have to step off a 42 for YOU. :)
I guess maybe not, then. I was an early 80's rider, born in 1977. Even though I live among the tunnels of the Lex local now, the Brighton line will always be my home.
It always was a wonderful line to work ... despite the leaves, despite the snow, despite the ice, despite the tickly ground currents in Coney yard, despite management. :)
Nothing else in the world like it, and that photo of the Empire State building up the line brought it all back. LOVED working it.
It would not surprise me if I rode with you as a kid on the Brighton. We used to board an M at Avenue U, go one stop to Kings Highway and catch the D express. It used to tick me off when we had to travel to Nassau St because we needed the M train. I couldn't reach the railfan window of an R27/30 or R32 for that matter. The D at the time was a majority of R42's, R40M's, an occassional R40 slant which was very, very rare, and an occasional R32. D train was my favorite until the TA started skip-stop service, eliminated the M, and until 2001, turned the mighty into a lowly local. Sorry, but the love of the D train had moved to the lovable 6 train. Used to love the 4, but when full width cabs were introduced on the R62, the 6 was the last East Side line with R62A's that still had railfan windows and my favorite R36 main line and WF cars.
If you don't mind mentioning, what was the time period you spent on the Brighton if unless you still run there?
That's a great picture. I just right clicked it and made it my wallpaper!!!
Another reason (one of thousands by the way) why the Brighton Line is the best line (I must admit, I left out the Rockaway Line, the best line for Railfanning) in the world.
Hey Fred can you get a view of the Empire State Building like that on the line you worship the most?
I'm sorry Mr. Newkirk for responding so late, I just saw this posting. I and all the Subtalkers who worship OUR line (#1`Brighton Exp. Bob, Flatbush41, David J. Greenberger, Q Brightliner and anyone else I may left out, you are included too.) tip our hats to you for bringing such a wonderful point out.
I also remember not too long ago, when I was riding Fred's line (forgot the name of his line already), over the Manhattan Bridge, when we were racing side by side with a D Brighton. It would be fun to see who ends up at Dekalb first.
It was great seeing Hey Paul this AM as my wife and I got on a 68 (wife wants a seat so when traveling with her no rail fan window on the slant).
The load was light, I guess the storm scared everyone away. So light that we were HOT and were Gapped at Prospect Park.
Good luck with the pix Paul, its a great idea capture the arching!!
I assume Paul was on his trusty two-wheeler? Incredible how he recovered so quickly from Saturday's adventures in the BMTman's realm.
Cool stuff. But I think you really need to get a digital camera to properly capture what you are after. The photos will be 1000% better.
---Brian
If you mean an ordinary digital camera, I don't think that would do what I want. I'm taping it on a nondigital camcorder and transferring it to VHS tape. Then I play it back at slow speed and just hit the freeze on the WEBTV unit. I'm as much interested in the before and after periods of the arc and not totally interested in just taking a picture of the arc. It would be hard to capture the subtleties of the arc with a still camera.
If you meant a digital camcorder, then I would have to buy a computer to play around with it. I'm content with my current low cost relatively low tech approach.
Now, where else than Subtalk would we get to look DOWN at the fireworks and go "OOOOOOOOOH" ?
No question about it - we've gotta get you up to Concourse Yahd so you can observe the "Beeg bugs" providing light shows on demand. All we need is a volunteer to pull back the end guard and make contact with carbodsky. :)
Paul, not to nit-pick but your terminology is technically incorrect. Cars on the Q line do not have current collectors. All IND/BMT cars except for the R-110B and R-143 use shoe beams - not current collectors. R-46s originally had current collectors when they were equipped with the Rockwell trucks. Just thought you'd like to keep your temnimology Straight.
You've piqued my own curiosity here - I always thought the terms were interchangeable. What's the difference between the two? Any drawings available anywhere?
Well, Unca Kev there IS a BIG difference...a current collector only does so currently...all others would be shoe beams since they can collect in the past or the future...just thought I'd clear that up ol' buddy :)
Heh. Heypaul's over at your house, isn't he? Hey! Want some SNOW? :)
Shoe beams and current collectors both serve the same purpose, to pick up traction power from the 3rd rail and deliver it to the car. Both use contact shoes for this purpose and (in the case of NYCT) all four shoes are connected to a common trolley lead for this purpose.
The differences are technical but from a layman's point of view:
Traditional shoe beams are made of hardwood (usually kiln-dried maple) while current collectors are traditionally made of fiberglass. (NYCT has experimented with fiberglass shoebeams but has subsequently found it to problematic)
While the current collector is rigidly mounted to the truck, the shoe beam 'floats' between flexible gibbs at either end of the truck.
I also believe that current collectors utilize a cartridge fuse whereas the shoebeam uses the more traditional copper fuse-buss (although this may not be universally true).
Got it ... I was under the impression from what I read Heypaul's meaning to be and what you added that somehow the pickup slider itself had a signicant design change of that familiar old D-shaped show on the spring in contact with the rail - the difference is really in how it's mounted on the truck rather than the shape and function of the sliding pickup that rides the rail. I thought maybe "current collector" had changed to something like a fuller brush or something significant there.
But I see the differences now. THANKS! (and yeah, if only folks realized just how MUCH we trust wood with electrons, and why it actually wasn't such a bad idea)
So last night on my way home its raining. I check my wallet, figured I'd have to take a cab (not oging to walk 15 minutes in the rain). Empty.
Then it hits me... a great service to the customers of NYCT, and a new way to make some much needed (supposedly) money would be to put ATM's in select stations near the token booth or MVMs. Most corner stores ahve them these days, so they have to make some money for the owner, right? And think of that on a large scale like the subway where you have millions coming through.
You can put them in shopping districts or at major transfer points this way the customer doesn't have to leave the system, especially if they need that money and can't take the chance of missing their train (that was my concern, get off the 2 at Park Place and go upstairs, hit the ATM, and in that time the A came and left and I had to wait 15-20 minutes late night for the next one).
Does this sound like a feasible idea or am I off my rocker? :)
Just what we need, more machines that breakdown.
I don't know how much could be made, but one concern that comes to mind is the wiring needed for an ATM. Presumably you'd need both electricity and phone/computer connections -- are those as available in the system as they would need to be?
On the other hand, perhaps this issues has been addressed with the installation of the MVM's?
CG
Now the last thing we DON'T need are more opportunites for scam artists to jam ATM machines at unmanned (no station agent on duty) entrances. NYCT has done very little to stop this practice with the MVM's, why should they worry about ATM's?
The best way to go about this is to contract out the ATM's to private operators such as "AXIS". AXIS is an operator of store at,'s which charges $0.99 a transaction for cash. The ATM's could also sell metrocards of the pre-configured $6, $15 variety sold at stores and newsstands to augment the MVM's in station.
The MTA is in the business of moving people from Point A to Point B. The MTA has enough trouble keeping change in thier ATM's
The idea is a very good one though. It would work best in manhattan and a few other high income areas in the 5 bouroughs. It is a good way to make some extra money. In addition the ATM company is required to provide security such as camera's at each machine. I think this could be a win win for both commuters and the MTA pockets
The best way to go about this is to contract out the ATM's to private operators such as "AXIS".
This is who does the grocery stores too. No one really operates their own ATM's except for perhaps banks (maybe they could even form an alliance with some bank), and even then maintenance &c is by an outside company. But even contracting it out they have to bring in some decent money for the sclient because then the corner stores wouldn't have them (money produced from sales when the person goes in wouldn't be enough I see many people who go into a store for the ATM and leave without buying anything).
There is more then enough money to go around. Small stores even duane reade's just started getting atm's a few years back. They made out before them, they can deal with the competition.
People often go to the nearest ATM. The private atm's really took off once the big banks in the city started charging usage fee's
This could be nice additional source of revenue for the MTA. Part of the money should be used to beef up fare control security.
Another idea to make money would be to bring in a newsstore chain such as hudson news or a 7/11 type national operation to operate more newstands in the system. The MTA should take this into concideration when renovating station putting a retail component in where possible.
Big stations such as 42nd street times square and 34th street (already has a newstand) would be prime targets. The well capitalized national chains have the money to build out nice locations and pay nice rents.
How about postage stamps too!
Better than that -
Bring back the gum machines, the candy machines and the soda machines!!!
Bring back the gum machines, the candy machines and the soda machines!!!
Now you are talking!
YES!
I remember the gum & candy machines, but were there soda machines too? Maybe I'm just having a senior moment but I don't remember them. I do remember a candy bar machine in the Roosevelt Av IND Station city bound platform that was once profitable for me. I pulled the coin release lever just for the hell of it while waiting for a train and a quarter came out. Pulled it again and another quarter. I got about $5 until it stopped. Everytime I went back to that station I tried that machine but unfortunately it was a one shot deal!!
>>> but were there soda machines too <<<
Yes. They were the type that dispensed a paper cup and then filled the cup (or splashed all over if the cup tipped). No bottles or cans.
Tom
Forgive my MNRR-centric ignorance (my Metrocard is on the back of my monthly pass and shows up in the mail). Don't the MVM's take debit cards? Since the ATM is presumably only for fares, doesn't the MVM do it all?
Forgive my MNRR-centric ignorance (my Metrocard is on the back of my monthly pass and shows up in the mail). Don't the MVM's take debit cards? Since the ATM is presumably only for fares, doesn't the MVM do it all?
MVM's do accept debit and Credit cards, but what brought about my suggestion is that there are times you may need money, for instance: it was raining, I needed a cab but had no money, and in Howard Beach at 11:30pm, there are no stores open - hell none in HB with ATMs anyway. So I'd have to get off where I knew there was an ATM forcing me to wait for a later train (at 20 minute headways, not a pleasing thought). And I'm sure I can't be the only one to ever face this problem.
The solution would be to allow cabs to accept credit and debit cards.
I believe they tried this already, but the implementation was crappy.
Implemented properly, the card would be swiped ENROUTE, before the destination, and sometime before the end, a person would choose a tip. Since the card was already authorized, the person can just walk out when the trip is over. No high speed link necessary.
The solution would be to allow cabs to accept credit and debit cards.
I believe they tried this already, but the implementation was crappy.
Yellow cabs, yes, but local services don't.
Actually, the better way to do this is to bring back newsstands, geedunks and other merchants to the subway mezinines. Then you could put the moneycnagers on their premisis and let them manage it.
MTA *should* rent out most of its extra space.
Elias
Actually, the better way to do this is to bring back newsstands, geedunks and other merchants to the subway mezinines.
Geedunks?
Geedunks?
: )
So, you were not in the Navy?
A place where sailors can buy pogybait (also known as geedunk)...
Kindofa seagoing soda fountain.
I remember when there were Neediks in the subways... Those were good hot dogs! Lexington and 59th had a shop that made donuts right there while you watched, a bag of fresh hot donuts for about a buck and a quarter.
And... they all paid rent!
Elias
The MTA needs to do a better job of creating and utilizing it's real estate. I love the newstand thats is in a former bathroom on one of the local stops I believe on the lex
The MTA is better off with natioal chains like 7/11 or hudson news who can afford higher rents.
An ATM in the subway system is very risky & I'm not so sure that would be such a good idea but it would help bring in revenue for the MTA's budget gap[whatever that is!] so I'm mixed on that issue.
["Does this sound like a feasible idea or am I off my rocker?"]
BOTH!!!
Nah, just kidding. It was just too much of a straight line! As far as ATM's in the subway, I think its a great idea. There can never be enough ATM's. I still don't know how we did it in the old days. I remember having two savings accounts. One at the bank near my house and another near my job as I always seemed to be working during banking hours. And when we went on trips, we had to get about $1,000 in traveller's checks to be on the safe side.
My big complaint with ATM's are the stupid charges if it ain't your bank. I refuse to use any other ATM if there is a branch of my bank anywhere in the area. My wife, on the other hand, who will never think of paying a $1.50 bus fare to go two blocks, will pay $1.50 to an ATM in the supermarket when there is a branch of our bank two blocks away. And then even your own bank will charge you if you want to withdraw using a credit card even if you have an account. But its all worth it 'cause they are giving you up to 1% interest on your savings these days!
On Train-Sim.com (files for MSTS), there is a file for a MBTA Type 6, cab view and exteriors.
What is a Type-6? I've heard of type 5, 7 and 8, but never 6.
There is a German GT6 that LRV in BVE.
So Unca Lou ... oh mighty motorman of yore ... you *like* BVE? We got us a genuine addiction going there yet? Heh.
Off to bed, too much toying with the Canarsie line. What can I say? 60 inches of snow so far (all storms since Kissmoose combined) and NOWHERE to go - gotta sack out at work, since there won't be any "home" for days ... gotta LOVE Brunoland ... baseball stadium, but no damned PLOWS ... :)
Wasn't the MBTA Type 6 going to be the 1970's streetcar that was eventually superseded by the Boeing LRV? Seashore has a mockup of the front end of such a creature - apparently MBTA was going to design its own PCC replacement a la its earlier semi's, but the draw of Federal funding attached to the Boeing LRV project squashed that. The front end mockup was as far as it got, IIRC.
Frank Hicks
I was with a friend yesterday and we walked by the Transit Shop in Penn. station, Newark, and they had a sign out saying that they were going to close on January 31st and they had 50% price reductions in effect.
Naturally, we went inside and I managed to snare two Corgi models of Septa PCCs (2800 and the GOH car, 2134) for a very reasonable $54 US for both of them.
If you want to go, I'd advise going soon because they probably won't have much left by the end of next week and all the good stuff will be bought sooner.
Happy hunting!
-Robert King
Robert,
Scroll down a bit. This was discussed in length - twice.
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=428447
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=428442
Found this posting in the Strappies Group:
http://www.straphangers.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=000343
"Was riding home on our beloved Q the other night, and some hoes where offering BJs to anyone who would pay them 100 bucks each. I was on the floor laughin at this!!! They did get some guys into it - they went into the conductors empty mid-train cabin and got busy!!! "
And here we are always commenting on preachers, beggars , battery sellers.
Found this posting in the Strappies Group:
http://www.straphangers.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=000343
"Was riding home on our beloved Q the other night, and some hoes where offering BJs to anyone who would pay them 100 bucks each. I was on the floor laughin at this!!! They did get some guys into it - they went into the conductors empty mid-train cabin and got busy!!! "
Hoes? You mean those things you use for digging in the garden? As for BJs ... guess that must be a reference to that big store chain, you know, the one like Costco.
Directions to Broadway Junction? :)
Yeah, that must have been it. A couple of urban farmers looking for the MetroCard transfer to their turnip truck.
:0)
if you want a hoe you should go to home depot rather than bjs.
That's great. Both stores are at either ends of the Gateway Center in Brooklyn. That Home Depot also has the outdoor garden supplies thingy.
Frank's too!
No, Peter the OTHER meaning of BJ & meaning of hoes, I won't elaborate since you should know what were saying here ;-).
Whoa! You took him seriously?
It's SubTALK, brah... we know.
Well, while I wouldn't be surprised if this was true, I'd take anything that comes from the Rider Diaries with a whole canister of Morton Salt.
However, if true, it would have to be pretty desperate dudes to spend $100.00 for a subway BJ. How degrading is that - and I mean for the guy who "ordered" it. Forget about the sl*t's offering it.
This is strange, I do notice QUITE a few C/R cab doors open on the slant R40's while I ride the Q express line. It's 8 minutes from Canal Street over the bridge to Dekalb, so why would any sicko want to pay $100 for that time?
Any high class call girl charging you upwards of $100 should at least offer a hotel room and free condoms...
Flavor condoms to be extra special ;-). Nah, they'd go for a MOTEL before a hotel, lets be logical Ron even you know they won't go to a hotel. Please, why would someone pay $100 to go in a conductor's cab when they could get it for free just as easily :-\.
Free...
You get what you pay for...
:0)
Exactly..... that would be real funny if they aren't "satisfied" :o)
"Please, why would someone pay $100 to go in a conductor's cab when they could get it for free just as easily :-\. "
You can get into the conductors cab for free?!
>>> Any high class call girl charging you upwards of $100 <<<
A high class call girl would be charging WAAAY upwards of $100.00. :-)
Tom
Guess they must be beginners and/or trying to get as much cash as quickly as possible ;-).
Or the high class call girl is running a subway special.
Yeah, I know probably a post holiday discount :o).
Maybe working up to a Valantine's Day Blow-out. Sorry about the pun.
No pun intended. Ha, they could make some mean cash on Valentine's day especially when some folks would be heartborken by those who dumped them or whatever the reason and would like some "pleasure".
Guess they must be beginners
Something quite MYSTICAL about the area they chose to cater to..
(no pun).. It being a slant car, I wouldn't put it past one
of US to hop between cars and start clicking and photographing
into the C/R wiper window...
Kool-D mentioned that there were some opened cab doors on the R40 Slants. This brings up the next point.
Several months ago, I boarded R40 Slant #4397. It was a diamond Q. Now, the C/R cab door was mysteriously opened. I saw the door controls and the yellow wood paddle. This was actually the second time I saw this cab door open. Perhaps someone hasn't gotten around to closing up this door?
Anyone have seen #4397 as of late? If so, was the C/R cab door still open?
Lets just hope the homeless don't start getting a hold of switch keys.
One Hundred Dollars???
Who were these girls, super models?? I mean, $100 seems kinda high, doesn't it? Especially in the subway.
Obviously we have "inflation." :)
Inflation of money or of "something else"?
I'd need some pictures to help decide. Where's all of our avid shutterbugs for *THIS* story? :)
Probably waiting for the train to arrive. 8-)~
Its inflation of doing sexual favors for money, go back to the first post and you'll see.
Condoms :)
--Mark
>>> Who were these girls, super models?? I mean, $100 seems kinda high, <<<
Damn!! Cops are always looking for the blue discount. :-)
Tom
Damn right!!!
Ha! Now that is some funny, crazy shit, girls giving head on the train on my Q line >:-o. Seriously, anyone who pays $100 to get some head in the train you could tell doesn't get too much from girls at all and are desprate and sexually frustrated, only in NY do these things happen :-\.
The thing is, I lived in Los Angeles for 16 years. Couldn't afford a car, wasn't a football hero, didn't own a surfboard. I couldn't get a girlfriend if my life depended on it.
Moved to the East Coast and all of a sudden I didn't have as much of a problem anymore
Well, it the TA were to organize this, the deficit would be wiped out in a week and "customers" would no longer be whining about their trains being late. After all, New York State has "Lotto" and is opening gambling parlors throughout the state to get rid of that pesky deficit. Won't be long before they start opening a chain of "Joe Bruno Crack Houses" up and down the Thruway, so why not? :)
Was it the LEAD CAR by any chance?
They could increase tourism by legalizing casino gambling, prostitution and marijuana.
I've always thought that keeping those things illegal is as ridiculous an effort at legislated morality as prohibition.
Casino gambling is upstate's *ONLY* industry. You can't go 50 miles upstate without getting lassooed by some natives, and of course Saratoga (which is getting a new Joe B Train station) is horsieland. There's hookers, but they're long in the tooth and short in the can. NYC gets the better hookers. Marijuana ... I remember that stuff. Also damned hard to find upstate, last time I saw a doobie was about ten years ago.
At the rate we're going though, I can see Paturkey and Bruno at a ribbon cutting for crack houses up and down the Thruway.
Marijuana ... I remember that stuff. Also damned hard to find upstate, last time I saw a doobie was about ten years ago.
I thought Upstate was crystal meth territory. Maybe Hillbilly Heroin too.
Heh. Ya never know ... but somehow I suspect they're smoking that stuff over at the capitol ... :)
Hey Mayor Bloomberg admitted to smoking marijuana(weed) And George Dubya admitted to being a drinker in his younger days so it wouldn't be such a surprise to see politcians smoking or drinking alcohol or other drugs. All this stuff making me want to get high[j/k] :o).
I'm sure Bloomberg's willing to take it up again, wondering what he was smoking when he ran for office in the first place. As to our Shrub, when you get into the oval office, there's even BETTER drugs than you can get on the street. Yeah, like I believe he knocked himself out cold falling down eating pretzels. Uh-huh. :)
But let's be real - listen to a politician and you KNOW they won't pass any whiz-test ... that's why they don't TAKE them. I for one would LIKE to know what they're smoking. Light that sh... smoke that sh... PASS that sh...
Bloomy probably lights his joints in bars and wherever else he barred smoking so the lwa is exempt to him[of course it is he's the mayor]. As for Dubya passing out on pretzels, pretzel my ass he probably got knocked out from drinking those 40's WITH those pretzels 8-).
Also damned hard to find upstate, last time I saw a doobie was about ten years ago.
Wait till you see me!
---BMdoobieW
We'll dispatch some snow dogs. :)
Was it the LEAD CAR by any chance?
No, but evidently it _was_ the HEAD car.
Ooo! Oww! The possibilities of compressor plumbing gags has caused a halon dump in the tower. Everybody run for your lives! :)
Just don't look at the gas.
Deuce! Dewd! I'se disappointed! No mention of "so good, she's able to reduce pipe pressure by forty pounds without kicking in the compressor?" I'm ... well ... frankly disappointed in ya. This is SUBTALK, dammit! :)
I suppose the price was slightly inflated because they had a luxurious transverse cab to offer. If it were a smaller cab (perhaps an R-9) the price might have been significantly discounted.
Is the transverse cab floor padded? ....Sure them cars look like armadillos
and may be HARD on the eyes.... but... gotta be easy on the
knees, knowhaimean?
No, in every civil service title, KNEE PADS are required safety equipment. I'll bet them chix with ... ummm ... nevermind ... have a bargaining unit ...
Inquiring mimes knead to no ... were the hookers wearing orange vests? Did they have a functioning flashlight and blue card? :)
"hookers wearing orange vests"
I can almost imagine a TA fantasy.
Where do you put the MetroCards when the lady wit the orange vest comes over and flips it up at you?
I could think of 2 places on her where you can swipe the card. One place you definately have to use a cleaning card first.
A disposable card would be best for that situation :-).
Nah, I think that would be the rubber conductor's outfit. We've definitely got the makings of a movie here somewhere. :)
It's an amusing story. Of course, it almost certainly isn't true.
If enough people talk about it in here, it might become an urban legend.
Good point ... now ... about that 76th Street station. :)
That's why 76th has been kept such a secret. $100 admission to the 76th Street station.
That's not terribly far for $100 ... for $100, I'd expect to go at LEAST halfway around the ... ummm ... nevermind. :)
I wasn't planning on bring that up again. But since you've asked, read this for a while.
http://www.dresden-neustadt.com/hosting/beefland/newyork/images/euclid.gif
See even a thread about BJ's can turn into a thread about 76th Street Station!
See Chris, isn't that amazing that on some threads SOMEHOW the 76 St myth works its way into something that is a fluu 360 degrees from the original topic, now what another 76 St thread?! Let me NOT say anymore about you know what :-x.
Sculley and Muldaur DIED for 76th Street ... it's every subtalker's SWORN DUTY to keep the X276 files open!
Selkirk brought it up. I was going to let it stay where it was.
See Chris, isn't that amazing that on some threads SOMEHOW the 76 St myth works its way into something that is a fluu 360 degrees from the original topic
360° is a full circle, anything is 360° away from itself.
You must be thinking of 180°.
Yeah, that's what I meant :o).
That's 360° from what you meant!
Seems like if we go 180 or 360 or 98.7 degrees, it'll always come back to 76 Street. And I haven't brought it back.
No no no no no no no no ... I'm MUCH better now. :)
Ahh Selkirk, did you really have to bring that up again :-].
But of course! Besides the "rat hole Montague St Tunnel," "Kill that freaking V train" and "Tear down X elevated structure", what ELSE is there to talk about here once we get tired of cab blessings and whizzing on the third rail? :)
All the more reason to come up with something more original.
That's why I leaped into this one ... at least it's a new concept. :)
Daresay, the price becomes $250 if the C/R happens to come back
to position and/or summon police to meet the train at DeKalb..
Allan,
I personally hated it.
Repeating this trash is not worthy of you! Even if it happened.
Remembering that you have both ladies and kids on this board, I hope
you don't dish this kind of dirt anymore.
Thanks,
Subway grrl
Remembering that you have both ladies and kids on this board, I hope
you don't dish this kind of dirt anymore.
Why are ladies and kids entitled to have material intended for them censored, while everyone else has freedom of information?
You are to be commended for reminding all of us to be cognizant of what we post (and of course I contributed to this thread, so mea culpa).
However, a wide range of subjects is actually discussed here very often, and some of these include topics which are more appropriate for adults. To completely censor this would be very difficult.
Some of the material is, I agree, gratuitous.
What are your thoughts about rating posts on the board (or other controls)?
Nothing bad was said, and I really think the thread had a lot of comedy in it. Why be serious all the time? Most people only used abbreviations and no one got vulgar. If kids know what the abbreviations mean, they already know about the actions mentioned, and there is nothing in this thread that they don't know about already. If they don't know what it means, it went over their head anyway.
I found it funny.
>>> What are your thoughts about rating posts on the board <<<
My thoughts on this particular thread are that it should have ended after no more than ten humorous comments. That it has gone on so long is an indication of the sophomoric level that the board has fallen to. It is becoming difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. How does one go about rating a post as "not worth reading"? Will school holidays never end?
Tom
How does one go about rating a post as "not worth reading"?
On the Airliners.net message boards, readers can vote for a one- to five-star ranking for threads, although a majority of threads don't get ranked.
Have you got PROFF?
I knew someone was going to bring that word up sooner or later :-\.
You certainly have a right to your opinion but frankly, at my age, I'd rather not have anyone censor what I might read. If you are offended - disregard the thread. If children are endangered by it, then they are too young to be on the internet, unsupervised. What we really do not need here is another member of the thought police.
Remembering that you have both ladies and kids on this board, I hope you don't dish this kind of dirt anymore.
Hey, if the whole story is to be believed, it was two persons of the female persuasion who were offering Hoover jobs on the train!
Well I participated in this thread so I should be ashamed of myself ;-). All jokes aside, it was funny to me & besides, there may have been kids who participated in this thread as well and plus young kids know about this stuff so young nowadays. I understand you don't want this type of stuff posted here but we didn't say words which would "give it away" and we kept it rather 'clean' and it gives us some comic relief 8-).
Here is a shot from the Bombardier Web Site:
Pretty sharp... Hopefully these will fare better than some of Bombardier's other recent projects in the area (Acela Express, R142).
A couple questions for those in the know:
1) Are those actual MU's or merely cab cars for push-pull operation?
2) What line(s) will they be operating on?
3) When are they scheduled to be put into revenue service?
Thanks in advance...
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
These are not MUs. They are loco-hauled push-pull coaches that can be used behind a diesel or electric loco, and presumably could run on all NJT lines, but most likely to/from NY Penn to take advantage of the high seating capacity.
I do hope that Conbardier realizes that NJT is not LIRR, and is not all High Platform. What is wrong with them? Do they think all the northeast is high platform, have they only ridden the NEC (even then the Septa portion should have made it overwhelmingly clear that it is not all High Platform even on the NEC). Perhaps they see low platforms as a foothold for the Talgo, which is so far the only equipment capable of level boarding at low platforms, or even maybe Bombardier is allergic to low platforms? Is suppose we'll see, it would be mildly amusing if these were built all high platform and sent down the NEC under the understanding that it was all-high platform, only to pull into Jersey Ave!
As a side note, looks like these will suck for unloading, just three or four small doors per side, ridiculous! I just hope I never have to work my way off at Metropark, Summit or PJ with all the other commuters trying to squeeze through the doors.
The bi-levels are going to be used in NEC trains, which is all hi-level. I lot of people are bitching that NJT should focus on a larger number of single level cars instead of fancy pants bi-levels that only seat a marginally higher amount of people.
Personally I think they should ditch bathrooms from corridor trains or at least have like 2 marked bathroom cars.
Yes, but the NEC isn't all High Platform! Jersey Ave is Low Platform! So what is NJT gonna do, ask those customers to jump? All because Conbardier has a fear of Low Platforms? How come MARC can get good quality Dual platform Bilevels from Kawasaki and NJT is stuck with the Acela-Sausage-makers themselves?
They Should be trying to serve more of their people! If you're gonna operate a Dual Platform system, you'd sure as hell better make sure that your fleet is gonna handle both. If you have old equipment, like the oldest Comet Is, and those can't go to High Platforms, that's understandable, not much you can do there other than try to upgrade as soon as possible. But to buy new cars that are restricted to high platforms is insane. It has occured to them that these cars cannot be used into hoboken, right? Why the heck did they increase the clearance in the Bergen Tunnels if they're not gonna get BiLevels? What happens when there is a screwup at Sunnyside or the MMC and a Bilevel set gets sent out on a MidTown Direct to Gladstone? Will "Passengers exiting at XXXXX need to jump" be included in the automated announcements?
And once again, I'll mention the doors, not only are you being screwwed into one route, and then you have to skip a stop on that route, but you have about the same passenger flow as a car now on a low platform. This is so incredibly asinine it isn't funny, although I suppose it's possibly the first true sign that Warrington, the father of Acela himself is president of NJT.
All of this and a train gains what? 10-20 seats at most over a comet V or lower set? Now I know why nobody seems to be too hot for BiLevels, this is just stupidity at it's worst!
Who said the cars were only high level? That picture is just an idea of what they will actually look like. The trainsets will accomodate high and low level platforms, HOWEVER- as of now, the plan is for the bilevels to be used PRIMARILY on the NY - Trenton clocker trains (when NJT takes over in 2005-2006). Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they'll operate to Long Branch and maybe Dover. But they are being built specifically for the NEC.
Yes, but the NEC isn't all High Platform! Jersey Ave is Low Platform!
But by the time these cars enter service it will be... Jersey Avenue is scheduled for conversion to high platform, with work starting later this year.
They won't be used on the NJCL, however; the last station there scheduled for conversion to high platform, Hazlet, is getting its makeover now. There are too many issues with the remaining stations on the electrified portion of the NJCL (grade crossings with no good alternatives at Little Silver and Red Bank, general station layout at Perth Amboy and South Amboy [which also has the grade crossing issue, but there are alternatives at that location], and limited seasonal usage at Monmouth Park) to convert them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
South Amboy will become high-level with major crossing improvements and parking garage within next 2 years.
Peter the Pole
OK, good news, I didn't realize they had been able to address the issues there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A Woman's death last year while crossing the tracks gave this project priority,
http://www.njtransit.com/an_capitalprojects_project044.shtm
Thanks, Tom. I note that the NJT website also indicates a high-level project for Red Bank; however, this will be extremely difficult to do for a couple of reasons: first, the station itself is on the National Register of Historic Places, and second, the entire area is a historic district. The station does have high blocks for ADA compliance (which are used, albeit infrequently) and the existing low platforms have only recently been renovated and extended, including the closing of one street. Putting high platforms in place without violating the historic setting of the station would require closing at least one additional street, the taking of one building, and the elimination of some parking (already in short supply there). I don't see it happening.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Personally I think they should ditch bathrooms from corridor trains..."
Where are the fare beaters going to hide? Or where are the drug addicts going to consume their stuff? Come on now...
Federal law stipulates bathrooms to be there if trip is one hour or more.
You know that gap between the cars...
Anyway, NJT could just pull a "SEPTA" and split the route into two. Example, Trenton to Rahway train #345 and Rahway to Penn train #346.
Is that the stipulation? I heard that if any of an agency's routes is 50 miles or longer, a bathroom has to be available. I heard that is why SEPTA's commuter equipment does not have bathrooms. I believe SEPTA falls into either category anyway, I'm not 100% sure, though.
Even though SEPTA's trains run through Center City between two outlying terminals (like Doylestown to Thorndale is like 70 miles), the train "changes" when it gets to Suburban Station. So even thought its the same cars w/ the same passengers, its a new train. That's probably why they preform crew changes there.
So, the bathrooms are really for the crews, and not for the passengers?
SEPTA trains have no bathrooms.
I know. I was just saying that the reason SEPTA cars do not have bathrooms is because no CREWS are on the equipment more than 50 miles or one hour's worth, according to your post on how they change crews in Center City.
Choosing them is like a disaster just waiting to happen.
This is going to be such a waste.
If I'm looking at the picture correctly, the doors are positioned right over the trucks. Are they going to be able to get a set of stairs there for the lower level platform?
I'd just love to see these things load and unload at Newark, Metropark, New Brunswick. Add at least 5 to 10 minutes to a trip down to Trenton.
I think it's about time for NJT to start eliminating low platforms.
It would be nice at Jersey Avenue, and along the M&E.
When I lived in Kansas City in 1998 for 4 months, there was a proposal of a commuter train linking Olathe Kansas to KC Union Station using BNSF tracks that parallel I-35. Does anyone know about the progress? Maybe RonInBayside might know if he already has moved to KC. I am aware that the proposal for LRT has been defeated in past elections.
A tax to pay for LRT went down in flames...
I've heard about the KC-Olathe line. Don't know its status.
That line would be useful to me - I have a part-time job offer out there...
Ron,
Did you have a chance to eat at Hereford House and Arthur Bryant's Barbeque yet? Overland Park has several excellent restaurants. Also, if you enjoy beer, Boulevard Wheat Beer is a excellent locally brewed beer.
Thanks for the tps.
No, I haven't had a chance to visit Hereford House yet. I have eaten at Plaza III.
I'm i the Westport District, just off Broadway. Supermarket, restaurants, hardware store, drug store, Radio Shack, video store, Sonic Burger, all within walking distance. KU Medical Center is a mile away and you can get there on one bus (which runs every 20 minutes at rush hour and every 40-60 minutes otherwise).
I took a bus to meet my wife at MCI (Kansas City airport). The airport bus is "on demand" on the weekends with a bus trip arranged after you call in.
I rode bus #51 downtown for $1 (it was a half-length coach with 5 other passengers) , got a free transfer, and caught the I-29 Airport express (a converted shuttle van) which took me, its sole passenger, to the proper terminal. The driver didn't know where the airlines were, but the signs were good enough to follow.
If you have the weekend off, you may want to drive to St. Louis (less than 4 hours by car) and ride its Metrolink LRT. You will enjoy the line from Lambert Airport to Belleville, IL. The route from Bush Stadium to Laclede's Landing uses a former railway tunnel built in the late 1800s, and riding the bottom deck of Eads Bridge to Illinois is fantastic! And the journey to Belleville is like an old interurban, passing through several corn fields.
There are several great restaurants in Laclede's Landing, including an excellent microbrewery (forgot the name). Union Station has neat unique shops, including a model railroad hobby shop. Lotta Hotta inside Union Station has a great selection of hot pepper sauces (if you are into this).
Thank you. I am interested. Will do.
(
http://www.modot.state.mo.us/trans/ExecSum.pdf
Old story, old news. There's been talks for years about a high speed rail triangle connecting KC, St. Louis, and Chicago, but it'll never happen.
Seems that way.
KCATA is cutting back on certain bus routes to deal with budget problems.
I took the bus downtown today to find the driver examinatio station to get a handbook, and when I took a rush hour bus back, it had maybe 8 passengers on it total.
But, on a lighter note, I found the Hereford House (steak restaurant) mentioned by another Subtalker, at 20th and Main. I'll be back to visit it.
I am looking for some info on some of the interlocking names south of Philadelphia. These include BELL, LANDLITH, RAGAN, DAVIS and the post-Amtrak interlocking HOLLY. I am also assuming that the late BRILL interlocking was named for the also late J.G. Brill car company.
American and Pig and Myself are planning an LIRR trip this comming Wenesday, Jan 8th. I will be converging on Jamacia from Penn and Pigs will be comming from Flatbush. We plan to go to Mineola and then catch a train to Oyster Bay and back to Jamacia. We will then go to Long Beach, then a bus to Far Rock then a train back to Flatbush. From there we will take an N or R train to Manhattan to go and see the progress on the World Trade Pit (WTP). Depending on the time we will try to go uptown for food at the Hello Deli. I hope to get out on PATH or NJT before 5:30. The start time is ideally the first train to Mineola after 9 AM. We will be riding all M1's and getting an M7 will result in waiting for a later train. I need to take front door pictures of the PRR signals.
A LIAR trip? There had better be a GREAT story attached to this one. And I ain't buying "it was a typo" - the A key is nowhere near the R key. 8-)
Remember when I changed my name every few days?
Why not go to the Starbust Diner? It is relevant to the subways...(52nd and Bway, I believe).
That's the StarDust Diner - one of daughter's favorite restaurants.
A second set of M-7's went into revenue service this past Monday. From what I've been able to piece together, it is running mainly on the Hempstead branch -- but I haven't been able to nail down all the times yet. You might be able to substitute a Hempstead train for your Mineola run (the N40 and N41 busses run from Hempstead station up to Mineola about every 10 minutes, and it's a 15 minute ride).
A couple of other notes. I plotted out your trip itinerary using the LIRR and LI Bus schedules (I hope this doesn't ruin the spontenaity of the trip) and you'll arrive back in Flatbush at either 4:31 or 5:35 -- depending on whether or not you make a 3 minute connection at Jamaica when you're going from Oyster Bay to Long Beach.
A couple of ideas that might be worth considering. Start with the 9:33 Flatbush to Hempstead (9:38 from Penn with change at Jamaica). Who knows -- maybe this will be the M-7's? This train hits Hempstead at 10:28 which gives you enough time to take the N40/41 up to Mineola to catch that same first train to Oyster Bay.
Also, the N33 only runs hourly during the middle of the afternoon -- this adds about 40 minutes of standing around in Long Beach to your day. Having lived there for a year, it's a lot more fun to stand around Long Beach in the summer than it is in the winter (there are a few good lunch spots near the station, though).
Finally, your trip won't be all M-1/3's. The Oyster Bay trip will be bi-levels. But you knew that.
CG
What time does my train leave Penn? I hadn't actualy looked it up yet. Thanks for the info though. I might try going down to Far Rock first and then to Long Beach.
For Oyster Bay, the trains leave Penn at 8:35AM and then 10:28AM. The times I gave you before were based on the 10:28. If you took the 8:35 (8:36 from Flatbush) and followed the plan you laid out you'll get back to Flatbush at 3:28.
What are your priorities and time constraints for the day?
CG
I need to get on the pre-5:30 NJT super-express out of Penn Station. Any train after that and negotiating penn station is just a nightmare. You'll never catch me taking the 6:07 "Titanic" again. Grr, looks like I'll have to get up extra early to get to Penn by 8:35. Thanks again for your help and you are welcome to come along.
Thanks for the invite. Unfortunately, I've got to work Wednesday and have meetings which can't be moved.
We may have confirmation by Monday that the 2nd set of M-7's are running on the Far Rock line. If they are, you can start your trip off on the 9:06 Flatbush to Far Rock (9:16 connection from Penn) which looks like it's an M-7. Then go to Long Beach back to Jamaica then Oyster Bay and get back into Penn at 4:25. There are some long waits on that trip, but you would sample all of LIRR's equiptment in one day.
Looking forward to hearing about your travels. Enjoy.
CG
The Hempstead branch is definitely a nice scenic line going past the golf courses in Garden City Park and then the single track through Country Life Press. But if its speed you want, especially at the railfan window, NOTHING beats the Main Line between Jamaica & Mineola, especially if you get a train that skips New Hyde Pk & Merrillon Av.
Rumor has it that Salaam is flying in from the left coast to join you guys....he'll have his trademark vest and tripod...
sounds like a great trip out on the rails. Hope you all have a great time and the time tables are with you all the way. It has been 16 years since I rode the LIRR (LIAR) really miss the run under Atlantic av and hanging over Atlantic av to Nostrand Av. Have fun
John
How much is this trip gonna cost with all the LIRR tickets and stuff?
---Brian
I saw a very old, outdated ad yesterday on the Red line yesterday for the transit exhibit I somehow neglected to visit at the National Building Museum last summer. For those who have went, what was on display and was it worth it to go? Thanks.
GO TERPS!!!
Yes, I was there to see it. It was called "Transit and the American City". It was an array of photographs both past and present from all transit opertaions in the US, New York City included.
It focused on the early years through post war "highway boom" years and how transit was affected. Of course the present Ligh Rail rebirth was represented.
It was a very interesting and educational display. I'm glad I saw it, though I didn't really know it existed and accidentally stumbled on it while trying to find Metro headquarters in that neighborhood.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes! Is it still open? I thought it was scheduled to close around October or November of last year.
If it is still open and you go, tell me if you spot the IND sign with a caption claiming it's from c. 1900. I reported the error but I have a feeling the caption was never corrected.
I went to the exhibit and it was interesting. It wasn't out of this world, but I thought it was worth my time. (I went in June 2002)
---Brian
Greetings, and a Happy New Year fellow Transit Buffs. I'm planning a trip to London England in March, and aside from the Transport Museum, is there anyother Transit related sites that may be of intrest?
Thanks in advance.
plenty, hopefully Simon Billis will read this, he was a great guide to me when I went 1 1/2 years ago
Lots!
A good piece of advice is to go to:
http://www.metropla.net/eu/lon/london.htm
and start clicking the links...
http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/
is a good informative site, as is:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/7069/
Don't stop until you know exactly what "Fast Amersham" means ;-)
Oh, and this one's quite fun:
http://victorian.fortunecity.com/finsbury/254/
Hope you have a good time in London!
I'm going to be in London myself 27 Feb-5 March. If you are going to be there on Friday 28th February make sure you get to the Underground's Acton Works open house. (See the www.ltmuseum.co.uk London Transport Museum web site for details).
The MTH website is still saying that the R-12s will be shipping this month. All those that believe this, please raise your hands.
On the other hand, they have pushed back the R-17 workmotor until April 2003.
I heard they can't release the work motor because WABCO doesn't stock the brake parts anymore. Once they pull the 2CY off the 37371 and gut the car at Concourse, who knows.
Extensive scientific research has revealed that apparently MTH is actually located in an alternate time stream that is 24 to 48 months behind the one we are in. At MTH it is January 4, 1999, so everything is right on schedule. :)
All seriousness aside, the actual MTH problem is too many projects in the pipeline at the same time. Their sales department releases the scheduled release date because that's what they were given. The actual production of the item is anywhere from 24-48 months (on average) behind the scheduled release date.
On their 0 gauge streetcar line they have had a Baltimore Peter Witt scheduled for release sometime in 2000. A two man team spent 5 hours at BSM recording our witt, 6119, for the Proto-Sounds that will be included - in 1997!!! As of 2002 no MTH Baltmore Peter Witt has been seen. A Brill variety operates almost every weekend.
yesterday after school,i went to bway junction and got on the j,luckly
i got the railfanwindow to myself.the lead car was 4763,that car is
great,just the second it got right out of the station,it shot like a
cannon,real fast,rode home.what a ride,has anyone here got on that car
til next time
It all depends on the Motorman and alos depends on the Traction power of all the trainline traction motors.
-AcelaExpress2005
Who told you that, thats rediculous? There is no such thing as a trainline traction motor, traction motor power will not vary to the point a train will go faster than another, and motormen are stuck with whatever their consist will put out when they put the master controllers in multiple position. A train with dead motors will be sluggish at the starting gate over a train with all live motors. A good T/O will notch the controllers one point at a time to smooth out acceleration, but if a master contoller is run into third point after the doors have closed, his actions will not create a faster accelerating train. Jerky starts can be created with GE SCM cars, but not a faster takeoff.
That's what I meant, it depends on the Motorman, what position the throttle is in and depends on the entire train, not just car #4763.
-AcelaExpress2005
I had #4763 afew week ago on the J. It had dead moter at that time. The train must have had one more car with dear moter becouse it could not clime the WillyB to good.
Robert
What is GE SCM, anyway?
General
Electric
Simplified
Cam
Magnetic
(The controller, under the car. It controls propulsion and dynamic braking.)
David
i don,t remember what other cars were on that train,but i do know that
whae i was the train,sometimes the t/o would put the controller to max
after the door had closed,and other times,the t/o would put it to max
as the doors would close.the ar was sorrta bumppy on the willy B,but
it was a nice and fast ride too.
til next time
The R42's in general have good acceleration compared to other car classes like the R68's, the slowest starter in the whole system. Also it depends on the motorman/woman; the veterans tend to go faster than the newer T/O's but that's not always the case so it depends on the T/O.
Not much point to this but in clearing out some old records I found these few items that might be of interest.
Train Consists- NYCTA
BMT Division
Rt SS Franklin Av Shuttle February 1, 1971
Franklin Av-Prospect Park Service
R-11 8018
R-32 3856
R-32 3857
2nd train
R-11 8016
R-11 8019
R-11 8017
Train Consists- NYCTA
BMT Division
Rt S Franklin Av Shuttle
Franklin Av-Prospect Park Service March 1,1987
R-27 8113
R-30A 8408
R-27 8187
R-27 8236
Train Consist-NYCTA
IRT Division
Rt S 42 Street Shuttle
Times Square-Grand Central Service December 17,1986
Track 1
R-17 6627
R-17 6619
R-17 6699
Track 4
R-17 6624
R-17 6624
R-17 6579
Track 3 January 10,1987
R-17 6618
R-17 6616
R-17 6665
R-17 6620
Larry, RedbirdR33
R
Here's a few more shuttle consists:
Train Consists-NYCTA
IND Division
Rt H Rockaway Shuttle
Euclid Av-Rockaway Park Service April 15,1987
Train No 1
R-27 8188-8173-8137-8148-8151-8172-8194-8157
Train No 2
R-38 4054-4055-4074-4075-4030-4031-3982-3983
Train No 3
R-10 3173-3035-2974-3031-3191-3209-3263-3187
Larry, RedbirdR33
I have the proof!!!!!!!!!!
Spotted: 12/31 and 1/3 (I was sick!)
M-7s on the 11:09 out of BKLYN
returning on the 1:26. Not sure. Maybe it was the 10:09 and the 12:26. But they are HERE!!!!!!!
7020-7019-7018-7017-700x-700x
Thanks for the info. There was a second set of M-7's that went into service Monday.
From what I've been able to gather elsewhere they've been spotted as follows:
7:36 AM Hempstead to Flatbush (Arr 8:28)
gap -- then
3:32 PM Flatbush to Hempstead (Arr 4:27)
4:53 PM Hempstead to Flatbush (5:48)
6:14 PM Flatbush to Hempstead (7:04)
Unless what you saw is a third set going through testing (could you tell if it was in service or not?) then the gap may very well be filled by:
9:06 AM Flatbush to Far Rock (10:13)
10:26 AM Far Rock to Flatbush (11:28)
12:09 PM Flatbush to Far Rock (1:13)
1:26 PM Far Rock to Flatbush (2:28)
Anyone with other info?
CG
This is consistent with what LIRR said it was going to do.
I'll see if I can shift my break to around 10:30 and see if it passes by Lawrence monday...
The train was definately in service. I doubt wether the train is the earlier or later train, however, there is only ONE RUN of the train. I am almost certain now that the train was the 11:26 out of Far Rock, meaning that it was the 9:06. (There was 1 train before the M7)
Weekday schedule only. THIS IS A RVENUE TRAIN----------- 100% GUARENTEE!!
The train was definately in service. I doubt wether the train is the earlier or later train, however, there is only ONE RUN of the train. I am almost certain now that the train was the 11:26 out of Far Rock, meaning that it was the 9:06. (There was 1 train before the M7)
Weekday schedule only. THIS IS A RVENUE TRAIN----------- 100% GUARENTEE!!
Bring back the MP-54s!
Why?
Why not?
I dunno, why?
I think they were very handsome cars. I have always liked Tuscan Red with the gold (yellow) lettering and striping - the owl windows were real cool, too. It was great to ride thru the Penn Station tunnels with the windows open and the shades flapping. I seem to remember the catwalk being almost at window sill level. I liked - out in the open - peeking out the window - being carefull not to get too close to wayside obtructions - which were further away than they appeared. The moans and groans were great to hear as we picked up speed. The sectional rail also contributed its share. At speed the screaming motors let you know you were going somewhere fast. The overall experience was unforgetable. It was also a thrill to watch them fly by when you could stand near the right of way as a looong train ran by. ------- Bring 'em back!
I'd love to see them on an excursion, but in day to day service? No way! They weren't comfy, were slow as crap, and topped out at 50mph.
I shudder to think what the LIRR's ridership would be like if they kept buying MP-54 derivatives. The M-1's were really a big step up..
Hell with all the speed restrictions on the LIRR, I would say the MP-54 would fit right in at 50MPH. Hell I am too young to remeber them, but by the description I would love to ride them.
Frank D
Yeah but some of us want the LIRR to consistently run at 100mph (well, I do).
i was reading joe c's post: R42#4763,what a car. If i remember correctly, someone on this forum said jerky car starts in the NYC subway system was due to a car's inability to break the friction holding the car still on the tracks? Am i correct in remembering correctly or are there many other factors, cause the cars down here in the WMATA except for the 2000 series all have fairly smooth starts. thanks for reading.
GO TERPS!!!
Which other transit systems do this:
http://www.kcata.org/safe_place.html
NYCT has a homeless outreach program, and SEPTA works with city agencies, but this sounds interesting. It says 28 other trnsit properties do it, but which ones, I wonder.
I'll call and ask - but wante to post the link to the annoucement.
>>> It says 28 other trnsit properties do it, but which ones <<<
I saw the signs on buses of one of the local companies here in Southern California, but I do not remember which one.
Tom
My "source" reports that 7141-45 arrived on 12/31, while 7146-50 have also been shipped out from Plattsburgh and are in the city today (1/3).
-Stef
They made it just in time. Won't be anything moving south for a while. CSX' snowblower got stuck a bit south of here. Kissmoose Storm II ongoing up here. Snow's up to our roof now. Wowsers.
Either I didn't read my mail or my "source" was mistaken, but 7046-50 have arrived on the property as of tonight....
-Stef
There was a transfers from Lindon Yards to 234st Yard(I can not remeber the IRT yards they goto.) I left the yard at around 9:00pm. I could not get the number from my L train.
Robert
That transfer was late in getting up here. A massive signal failure on the 2/5 slowed things down for about 3-4 hours this evening. It seems that the signals on all tracks went to danger from Jackson Av up towards Simpson Street. It's no wonder they didn't stop service entirely!
-Stef
It was crazy on the #2/5 Line today. Everyone trying to Call Control at once.
Did control put up an answering machine? :)
I can hear the audio track now:
[r142 tone]announcement plays consistently to T/O
"Thank you for driving MTA..."
"We apologize for the delay"..
"Control is not Responding.. Please wait.."
"Thank you for driving MTA... you are currently 2 minutes
behind interval..."
"This is a Bronx bound 2 Express train, we apologize for the delay"
"Thank you for driving MTA... you are currently 6 minutes
behind interval..."
"Control is not Responding.."
"Thank you for driving MTA... you are currently subject to being
turned back at the next station.. Sorry, no lunch."
"This is a Bronx bound 2 Express train... the next and last stop is..
East 238th Street..."
I can see it now leave a message with your complete call letters, location and operating motor and will get back to your as soon as possable.
"Your train is IMPORTANT to us ... please leave your mic keyed down and remain on the horn for the next available TSS" ("raindrops keep falling on my head" melody with this message repeating every 15 seconds until track power goes down) ...
I was one of them. I was stuck btwn Mott and 3Av-149St for an hour. After the T/O on the 5 ahead of me and myself updated Control of how long we were stuck in the tunnel, they finally made some progress to move us up. Made a nice lil OT, though.............
I saw 7055 in service on the 5 a few days ago. Are these deliveries coming in order?
No. Cars are delivered at random, that is, whatever is ready to be released from the plant after all assembly work is done.
-Stef
I mentioned several months ago that a close friend of mine in Chicago, who happended to be a writer for the Chicago Tribune at the time (he's now an editor), did a Tempo story on "CTA Guy", the guy who does the cheery radio-announcer automated voice for the CTA trains. Part of the story involved CTA Guy and my friend Lou riding around on the system together, as this was the first time CTA Guy had actually ridden the CTA since doing the recordings. (In real life he's a professional broadcaster in Wisconsin.) After some time of riding around on the system, CTA Guy actually stood up in the center of the car and began announcing the stops with the exact same tone of voice that was being played by the train's automated announcement system. Needless to say, he got some very strange and bemused looks.
Here's where it gets funnier...
This afternoon I called my friend's house, and his answering machine picked up. The new outgoing message, spoken by a strangely familiar voice: "Your attention please. Lou and Amy have been delayed. We apologize for the inconvenience. They expect to be home shortly. Thank you for riding the CTA. This is Grand. Doors closing! [beep]"
Yes, my friend actually got CTA Guy to record the outgoing greeting for his answering machine. And he's not even a railfan. How many of you can claim to have the R142 Mr. Ed voice on your answering machines? The Mary Poppins voice on London's Jubilee Line? The Matrix agent from the MBTA's Red Line?
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
I can't make any of those claims, but I do believe it is time to change my recorded message and thank you for riding MTA New York City Transit :)
--Mark
Should I -
1) railfan
2) work on a certain old gal
3) takes the misses out
4) take some ritalin
5) go see the psychiatrist
6) all of the above
7) none of the above
Two weeks is a lot of time away from the booth!
-Stef
You can always come upstate and shovel snow. :)
Not exactly, but a friend has suggested he and I go on an excursion to Boston for a day to be announced. I can see the headlines now - NYCT Station Agent Invades The T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-Stef
I'd wait a couple of days. The radar tells me that they're starting to get what we've been getting - about 19 inches so far and it's gonna keep rocking and rolling until afternoon. I'd check to be sure there still IS a Boston before heading up there. And bring exact change, the TA will NOT accept "I didn't have a nickel to get off the train" as an excuse. :)
When are you going and where are you working. As a V/R I need some jobs to think of taking.
You're too late, unfortunately. I start vacation tomorrow. But to answer your question, I have 2 Lunch Jobs, 2 Lunch-Booth Jobs and 1 Straight Booth Job, mostly in upper Manhattan and the Bronx. This would be on the PMs with TW off.
The Straight Booth Job would take me to Herald Sq on Mondays.
-Stef
"Give my regards to Broadway!"
After you come back, that is!
LOL!
You're a good man.....
-Stef
Uniform Off.
Take a nice long, warm bath.... psst... you can even BRING
IN the missus if ye' wants... just remember she has a fine
coat of primer which is NOT to be fussed with...
;) :)
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Great idea!
-Stef
See Jeff and try to fix the end on the old gal that won't operate. He knows the details.
Whatever you do, enjoy.
I'll e-mail him during the week and see about going up next Saturday to address the problem on 6688.
-Stef
Daoh! SHE needs some of that fine Steffano lovin'
With this $800 + million dollar defecit, is there any chance the MTA would revert back to that state?
What defecit, I just heard tht the TA has a 630+ Million dollar serplus. It was found by the state controler after he made the TA open they books becouse of the proposed fair increases.
Robert
Besides ... reassembling all those R10's and getting them ready to clop-clop-clop down the track would take half of forever and be FAR more expensive than just doing the R160 order. :)
You bet it could happen. Remember, our politicians represent people who are moving out, and want to leave as little as possible behind for the rest of us then the go. Just debt and pension obligations.
Watch out for deferred maintenance like a hawk!
Hey! NOT a problem! First off, Joe Bruno has constituents whose trailers are getting DAMNED cold with the hundreds of thousands of jobs that have been lost upstate SINCE Mr. Paychex Inc failed to win governor (Golisano) ... things are literally a disaster upstate (I'm not even talking of the snow overnight which has eight trees in various degrees of penetration of our house right now - can't walk down a damned hall without a chainsaw in hand) ...
Joe Bruno has STUPIDSTEEL ... BOMBARDIER ... and heaven knows what OTHER "Me shine train now, bill state" operators who paid for Shrub all with their hands and tongues out, wearing their orange vests and knee pads ... if MTA lays off people, we've got Mexicans ready to go to work on carbodsky ... if AMTRAK wouldn't take the damned turbos, by gum, they'll run between Troy and Saratoga ... from Bruno to Bruno carrying the East Greenbush Yankees (or whatever our taxpayer supported ball club is called now) to whatever, rest assured Joe Bruno will grab a piece of it for his cronies.
Sorry for putting it that way ...
ATTEN-HUT! STATE OF THE STATE ADDRESS IS THIS COMING WEDNESDAY ... the "message" will be a forebearer of "The Governor's Budget Message" (along with release of the "Executive Budget - FY 2003/2004") is ONE WEEK FROM NOW ...
The Truth is OUT THERE ... and it's about to be revealed, and far gorier than even Unca Selkirk had predicted ... MASSIVE LAYOFFS ... stay tuned ... but take solace, all TWU members (and everyone else for that matter) ... Joe Bruno is about to start building a *NEW* Amtrak Station in Saratoga while everyone else gets to eat CAKE ...
KIRK',You are ever the statesman.....and you weren't the only one ''diggin out'' for the last week! Had to digg out of 4 feet of snow,plus what was plowed in front of my car and so on....
Heh. Yeah, we're completely scrood up here - so much snow and so many trees down, a PAYLOADER couldn't make it. Going to be an interesting week, that's for sure. And of course, it's snowing again. 67.5 inches so far, the average for a YEAR is 62 and it's only been "winter" for a couple of weeks. Agggh.
Mr. Honda's been running so much, the brushes are almost shot. I tell ya, I'm in no mood for the hijinx of our leaders at the moment.
>>> I'm in no mood for the hijinx of our leaders at the moment. <<<
There you go looking for a government hand out. A good staunch conservative would have his dog team already hitched to the sled, so money that could go to train stations would not have to be wasted on plowing roads. :-)
And after all you have said about Joe Bruno, you can expect the plows at your place just after Memorial Day. :-)
Tom
"And after all you have said about Joe Bruno, you can expect the plows at your place just after Memorial Day."
Or much sooner, if he's willing let them come full and dump their snow in his front yard.
:0)
They'd have to be able to GET here. :)
Most of the roads are still impassable around here, the power's been out for days in Voorheesville, Guilderland and Delmar, and there's trees down all over. CSX found out the hard way that blower trains can't get pine trees out of the way. It's actually pretty bad up here after that last ice storm (which brought down the trees) followed by 2-3 feet of snow that buried the hazards. Never seen anything like this and I've been upstate for a long, long time.
But if they can FIND the place, what's another 10-20 feet of snow at this point? As long as I can submit a bill. We'll call it the Joe Bruno Ski Trail! :)
Naa, after calling him Paturkey puppet and a gasbag and other names, he'll get his house cleaned up whenever the expected late budget Upstate gets submitted :o).
Nope, when you live upstate, you don't count on government to do ANYTHING ... you do for yourself. We DO get irked though when government comes around and then charges us for the work we ourselves DID.
Anyhoo ... reason I'm replying is "State of the State" is still going to be done this coming Wednesday, but surprise surprise! The "Executive Budget" has been postponed two weeks from the 15th to the 29th. I think you're on to something here - the budget will start OFF two weeks late! :)
You don't/can't count on government and politics in general ;-). Sheesh its bad enough the budget has been submitted well past the deadline for 18 years and counting but now the start of the Executive budget will start LATE TOO! No wonder we are laughing stock :-\.
Heh. Nah, the laughing stopped back when Padre Mario was supreme leader, and Joe Bruno polished Warren Anderson's shoes. The hard way. People (and business) have just walked away shaking their heads in disbelief. What's TRULY sad is that when the state was going whizzo-spiffo, these clowns STILL managed to rack up bills we couldn't pay and after 8 years of an "economy" have dick to show for all that money they threw away. But by God, they all got re-elected, so all this chicanery is ENDORSED by the voter.
Given how deadly silent and DARK it is upstate now, if there WERE any peasants bearing torches, we'd note the orange glow over the horizon. :\
Heh. Actually, being a true conservative, I'm not expecting government plows anywhere NEAR here ... I'm honked off that there's SO much snow that my PRIVATE SECTOR guy can't get his payloader up here. We've got nearly 7 FEET of snow. I own my OWN road up to here, it ain't some government highway. Every time it snows a normal snow, costs me $300 to open the road. Guy just got up here and presented me with a bill for $950.00 ... but I'm proud that once again, I managed to get MY road open before CSX got THEIRS open. :)
But yeah, perfectly willing to take my own responsibilities and hits. Just wish Bruno would stop tapping my wallet for more penises with his name on it. One gets a little honked off paying more than 50% of their income in property taxes and the OTHER half in other taxes that do little good up here. Now if they were willing to plow my road, or get me one of those $100 subway hookers, maybe I'd be a little cheerier. Heh.
We ain't got nothing like that down in NYC. The average snowfall is 62 inches, I seriously think its more like 70" you guys got hit with over 5 feet already! Winter usually start from late October for you guys & it don't end until April usually. And it may only get worse for you up there anoter snowstorm is supposed to hit our area in a few days so MORE snow is going your way.
Lets say grafiti ever makes a comeback on trains, imagine a R142 or R143 getting a whole car 'mural'. Who knows, maybe the R33/R36WF would get mothballed, kept as back up cars and be used in case of emergency ;-).
Y'know, there's precedent for this. In 1976, problems began developing with the then-new R-46's. the TA was forced to run its remaining R-1/9s (which it had already sold to the scrapper) for a year and a half, paying the scrapper all the while for the privilege. This is one reason a few old cars should be kept around as new orders come in.
I know, the R46's when they first came in were just a disaster; with the UNTESTED Rockwell trucks [which were sued and won over $100M putting rockwell out of business]; the only thing that was attractive was the # of door lights ;-). Back on topic, I assume most of the R4-R9's [R1's were retired already] were painted in the MTA blue/silver, the R16 was retired shortly after the remaining R4-R9's but got a second living when the R46's were just dismal in 1979 and were limited to rush hours at one point.
Some R21/R22's should have been GOH'ed like the R10's, it would of provided extra trains for the IRT but they thought it would be too costly to rehab all single units. Then when the R44's & R46's returned from the GOH in 1992-1993, the R30's were replaced, which led to the car shortage in the B division. Had the full R27/R30 fleet been fully overhauled and kept, it would STILL be running and even if they were forced to stay underground, let it be. It would of helped the A & C in particular today.
Actually many of the R-4/R-9 series went to scrap still wearing OD/black paint. For example R-9 1689 went to Branford never having been painted blue/silver. Also, it will be interesting to see the fate of the R-32/38 fleet when it comes up for retirement. Incidentally, I don't think the new R-142/143s will last 40 years in the system the way cars of the past did. They just don't make 'em that way anymore.:-)
I agree, the quality is not there nowadays. I made a prediction a while back that the R38's and R40's would be scrapped before the R32's and I'm going to stand by it, you guys quote it, keep it in file do whatever you want. The R38's with the brown "superglue" make them look like trash and the R40's with the "wonder tape" is basically holding the roofs up. On these models once they're gone, I will really miss the railfan windows, the frigid A/C [which my Q line happens to have R40's, the best A/C in the system; sorry wanted to squeeze that in there ;-)], the nice designs and the quality :-(. Yea, I like the R142's but I don't have as much love for them as the Redbirds, it just got a certain flavor that the technological revolution cars will never have; it will be sad when EVERY Redbird is retired from revenue service. I hope there is another Redbird trip in the future I will make sure I go.
ALL the older cars--especially the prewar cars of my youger days--have something the newer "revolution cars" will NEVER have: Character. The older cars were wonderfully theatrical in both appearance and operation, not sterile as the newer cars are. The old cars let you know you were on a TRAIN. The R-1/9's, for example, had pneumatic doors, wicker seats, open ceiling fans, and what I call R-1/9 oil--NOTHING in the world takes me back like that distinctive smell. Plus their unique-sounding motors.
No computers, prerecorded PA announcements, plastic or pretense. These were subway cars built to last 40-45 years. Most of them did. :-)
Very true! They did have character. Now they all look the same. I can extend that to the LIRR also. The new diesels have absolutely NO character. Something was lost when the old "wrecks" were removed (however necessary and overdue it was). The GP38's, MP15's, F Units, and the old coaches were a commuter's nightmare, but a railfans dream!
Now they all look the same.
That's a very bad double standard. All of the Redbirds look the same, and that's 5 separate car classes. And with minor modifications, that can be extended back to the R-16.
The R-142 and R-142A have far more differences than the R-26 and R-33 (and everything in between).
The R-1s through R-9s all looked the same too, but I'll let them off on that one. Those trains had character. I've never ridden them, but I've seen them and HEARD them (thanks to heypaul's tape).
They are MILES apart from the Redbirds. A Redbird is a school bus on rails.
American Pig:
Although they are not stainless steel, I consider the Redbirds as part of the modern cars. I actually think of the R10's-R14's with the modern cars. I think most railfans think of the difference of old and new as pre-war and post war. The Redbirds had modern sounds, public address systems, door controls in motorman's booths, hard fiberglass seats, flourescent lights, etc. As a matter of fact, when I started riding the trains solo in the mid to late sixties and rode many times just to railfan, I hated the IRT because except for Third Av in da Bronx, they had no old stuff left. The BMT and IND were great. You could ride wooden "G" cars on Myrtle, Standards on the Canarsie Line and the Franklin & Culver Shuttles, and Arnines abounded all over! The IRT was just too boring.
Did I say "G" cars on the Myrtle? I guess I wasn't completely awake yet! I meant "Q" cars!!!
Did I say "G" cars on the Myrtle? I guess I wasn't completely awake yet! I meant "Q" cars!!!
I agree with you, the Redbirds design for FIVE classes was basically the same[especially in the front] except for modifications to the sides but they lasted more years than anyone expected so there's the quality & character of the cars but the new cars do look similar as well. Actually, every car from the R15 to the R38 basically was the same design; of course there were different lengths on the cars [R16, R27/30, R32 & R38 were 60 footers].
ALL the older cars--especially the prewar cars of my youger days--have something the newer "revolution cars" will NEVER have: Character. The older cars were wonderfully theatrical in both appearance and operation, not sterile as the newer cars are. The old cars let you know you were on a TRAIN. The R-1/9's, for example, had pneumatic doors, wicker seats, open ceiling fans, and what I call R-1/9 oil--NOTHING in the world takes me back like that distinctive smell. Plus their unique-sounding motors.
The R-1/9s may have had character, but the Redbirds were absolutely the NADIR of subway car design. The last good car before the R-32 was the R-15, after that they were more boring than the PAX Network.
The R-32 was just a stainless steel Redbird, but Budd did a GOOD job with that. The R-38 sucks.
I know a lot of people say that it's "impractical" and "ugly," but I LIKE the R-40s with their slanted ends. The R-40 was a nice effort by the TA to finally make trains that didn't look ridiculously utilitarian.
On the day the last Redbird splashes into the sea, I will REJOICE.
I agree, The R32 is the best looking car of all time in the B division too bad it couldn't keep the original bonnet though. Hey, by getting rid of it we got A/C in return but also we got a flip dot sign in the process; at least the GE 32's show the original front but w/o the lights.
which were sued and won over $100M putting rockwell out of business
Rockwell International is still very much in business. They built all five space shuttles.
They do other things too. Remember before there was a standard for 56K modems there was K56Flex and X2? They developed K56Flex.
But they don't do things for subways nowadays, or do they?
The only cars in the R-1/9 class to get the blue & silver paint were SOME of the R-7/7a/9 Eastern Division cars, and then only a portion of the fleet. Not one of the R-4 or R-6-1/2/3 cars were ever painted or even overhauled!
wayne
That's very interesting, considering that the Controller only announced a couple of weeks ago that his staff would audit the books and that he said the results wouldn't be known for MONTHS.
More crewroom scuttlebutt?
David
Gawd, look at all those R-10's ! Steve B-8th Avexp and Bill Padron must be going nuts looking at that pic.
Okay, find the R-10 with the flat wheels !!
Bill "Newkirk"
ALL of them. Sheesh. That was EASY. :)
Wow that would be great if it did.
Imagine the MTA going back to using R-10's!!
It could always happen again - unless you and other riders remain vigilant and active and show you care about your transit system.
If you own a car, you have to bring it in for scheduled maintenance, watch out for recalls, wash it now and then, inflate the tires, and do reasonable things to keep it from being stolen. You don't throw litter out the window, and obey traffic laws.
If you ride transit, then transit is your car - so you participate in taking care of it.
>>>>
If you ride transit, then transit is your car - so you participate in taking care of it. <<<
Well...
The everyday commuter was, of course, not to blame for the graffiti plague of the 70s and 80s, which would still be happening today if not for vigilant procedures put in place by the MTA in the early to mid 1980s.
Has any study ever been made about why some young men between say, 12 to 25, feel that it's worth risking arrest, life or limb to mark up walls, trains, any blank space? I mean, I've never had that partucular urge. Never have.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Has any study ever been made about why some young men between say, 12 to 25, feel that it's worth risking arrest, life or limb to mark up walls, trains, any blank space?
You know why dogs urinate on fire hydrants?
I mean, I've never had that partucular urge. Never have.
You are weird.
AEM7
No, this is WIRED.
Weird for not having the urge to destroy public or private property?
Then I guess I must be weird also, because I never found the need to destroy either.
Then I guess I must be weird also, because I never found the need to destroy either.
Yes you are. Destruction is one of the greatest joys in life. Just ask a certain G.W.Bush. Why do you think there are computer games whose sole objective is to allow the player to "shoot-em-up"? Why do you think people go to Formula-1 racing to watch the wrecks?
Maybe you don't do any of the above. Then you are weird, because you are not the majority. The majority of people are fascinated by destruction in one way of another, and some like to cause destruction just to "see what happens".
AEM7
Why do you think there are computer games whose sole objective is to allow the player to "shoot-em-up"? Why do you think people go to Formula-1 racing to watch the wrecks?
Maybe you don't do any of the above. Then you are weird, because you are not the majority. The majority of people are fascinated by destruction in one way of another, and some like to cause destruction just to "see what happens".
Yes, I do like action/destruction movies, video games, racing wrecks, etc, but that is NOT destroying public or private property. There is a major difference. The video games, movies, etc are not real, they are fictional. The same with wrecking race cars, it's a planned event, and is not destroying property that is not supposed to be destroyed.
Another example. Take Independence Day (the Movie). I had enjoyed watching the Empire State Building, the White House etc, being "blown-up". It is entertaining, it's a movie, it's fictional, just like blowing up buildings, or shooting people on a PlayStation 2 game is entertaining.
I DO NOT feel the same way about watching tapes of 9/11. That's not entertaining.
The same with wrecking race cars, it's a planned event, and is not destroying property that is not supposed to be destroyed.
You ask Micheal Schumacher after a car wreck whether he intended and planned to cut around the corner too close and bump into another car's tyre just so that his fans could enjoy seeing his car getting destroyed...
You know, the reason that vandals put concrete slabs on the track and hurl stones at the train is fundamentally the same as why you find shooting people on PlayStation 2 entertaining. The stone hurler wants to see how many train windows he could "get", and the other guy wants to see if he can make a train derail, and if it does, what happens. Most people make the distinction between "real" like 9/11 and "fiction" like playing DOOM, but a few fail to make the distinction until they cause a catastrophic event.
The taggers' minds work a little differently, but it's the same concept. Oh and by the way, this kind of "tagging" is not just limited to misguided individuals on subways. The first thing a newly appointed division manager does when he arrives at his new office is to change the name plate on the door to his office. The next thing he does is to issue a circular to his subordinates to say something totally useless, but with his name on the bottom. It's not limited to individuals either. For instance, after hotmail got bought out by Microsoft Network, they felt it necessary to rename it "MSN hotmail".
People are fascinated with destruction. And if you want to call rebranding destruction, people are fascinated with rebranding -- a scratchetti, an office door, name of a company. All the same thing.
AEM7
You ask Micheal Schumacher after a car wreck whether he intended and planned to cut around the corner too close and bump into another car's tyre just so that his fans could enjoy seeing his car getting destroyed...
I know what you are trying to say, but it's not the same thing. When he is driving his car, he knows that that could happen. The same should not be true for NYCT sending a train out. They should not have to expect the possibility of it coming back tagged, or derailed by some idiot that wants to see what will happen.
You know, the reason that vandals put concrete slabs on the track and hurl stones at the train is fundamentally the same as why you find shooting people on PlayStation 2 entertaining. The stone hurler wants to see how many train windows he could "get", and the other guy wants to see if he can make a train derail, and if it does, what happens.
I think there is just a "slight" difference between me shooting people in a PlayStation 2 game, and a stone hurler breaking windows or trying to derail a train "to see what happens".
Most people make the distinction between "real" like 9/11 and "fiction" like playing DOOM, but a few fail to make the distinction until they cause a catastrophic event.
So it would still appear to me that "the few" are the ones that are "weird" and have a problem, and not the "most people that can make the distinction", like me.
The taggers' minds work a little differently, but it's the same concept. Oh and by the way, this kind of "tagging" is not just limited to misguided individuals on subways. The first thing a newly appointed division manager does when he arrives at his new office is to change the name plate on the door to his office.
Also a difference. A manager has a right to "claim" his office and change the name plate. MSN can claim "hotmail", it IS theirs. A tagger has absolutely no right to claim a subway car as "his". If NYCT wants to paint a car in a graffiti scheme, they have every right to do so. A tagger doesn't have the same right, as much as they may feel they do have a right to do so.
People are fascinated with destruction. And if you want to call rebranding destruction, people are fascinated with rebranding -- a scratchetti, an office door, name of a company. All the same thing.
It's not the same thing. Rebranding is not destruction. They own the brand, they can do as they please with it, and call it whatever they want. Scratchetti is not the same as a manager putting HIS name on HIS office door.
I'm not condoning it, but:
Those people who commit vandalism don't have properties they can rebrand, or their own nice stuff to destroy (and replace), they also don't care about public property. Especially in the 1970s, public property didn't look like anybody had to care about it.
Then there's also the danger of going into yards or onto active subway tracks, avoiding arrest or even death. Adrenaline is the best drug.
Then there's also the danger of going into yards or onto active subway tracks, avoiding arrest or even death. Adrenaline is the best drug.
Well, I didn't say they didn't have balls! I took a TM tour of the abandoned 18th Street station on the Lex, and under an almost wet "piece" there was a ladder!! The graffiti must've been done within hours of our tour. These guys actually dragged ladders throught the tunnel to do their "work"!! I don't think it could have been there already, although possible. It was a junky wood ladder, and didn't seem like anything the Transit Authority would be keeping there for some reason.
Well, just the fact that they either had to walk from Union Square or 23rd street on the busy Lexington Avenue Line must've have given them their rush. Even 91st Street on the West Side Line is really severley tagged, much worse than 18th Street. That station had been visited much more often, and that's also not easy to get to! Well, better them than me.
>>>>I mean, I've never had that partucular urge [to tag walls and trains]. Never have.
"You are weird. "<<<
Proudly. I have never done drugs either.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The difference between drugs and vandalism is that drugs only harm you.
Have you ever worked in an environment full of second hand pot smoke, eg. rock concerts?
-Robert King
I don't think second hand pot smoke can harm you?
I don't think second hand pot smoke can harm you?
Correct! I've been exposed to plenty of secondhand pot smoke, and it hasn't ... uh wait, what were we talking about ... and where are my Twinkies?
I'm really HUUUNGRY.
Peace,
ANDEE
Secondhand pot smoke is less harmful than secondhand tobacco smoke. Smoking pot should be legal wherever smoking is legal, except that high driving should be treated the same was as drunk driving.
Secondhand pot smoke is less harmful than secondhand tobacco smoke. Smoking pot should be legal wherever smoking is legal, except that high driving should be treated the same as as drunk driving.
>>> I have never done drugs either. <<<
Not even a morning caffeine fix from the coffee pot or an attitude adjusting drink during happy hour? :-)
Tom
Well, that's a strange comment. How did you make THAT connection? Just curious...
If you own a car, you have to bring it in for scheduled maintenance, watch out for recalls, wash it now and then, inflate the tires, and do reasonable things to keep it from being stolen. You don't throw litter out the window, and obey traffic laws.
If you ride transit, then transit is your car - so you participate in taking care of it.
People usually have significant financial investments in their cars. They do not have any investments in the transit systems they use, at least not directly.
If $720 a year for travel to/from work is not a significant direct investment, than what is? BTW there are other investments you make, you can find them on your Verizon bill.
If $720 a year for travel to/from work is not a significant direct investment, than what is? BTW there are other investments you make, you can find them on your Verizon bill.
A subway rider might not think twice about, say, throwing a discarded McDonald's wrapper on the floor of the car when he's done eating because (1) it isn't his car; (2) someone else will likely clean it up, and (3) even if it isn't cleaned, he's not likely to be riding the identical car again. It's not like your own automobile, where you own it, are responsible for keeping it running, and no one's going to clean up after you.
Goverment is by the consent of the governed. We DO own the MTA system and we pay all of its bills, whether at the farebox, in taxes, or because of mismanagement.
But everybody JUST VOTED ... now it's time to reap the results. :(
In two years, everyone will vote for the SAME morons AGAIN. Works EVERY time.
Ah, the wonders of Democracy... : )
Sorry, our system is a PLUTocracy.
You've never seen the inside of my car!!
Sounds like a prime example of "deferred maintainance".
What is that on the front of the train on the second track from the right?
Could be an old track geometry car or inspection car.
That's the OFFICIAL "MTA School bus" or "Track inspection car" ... in it, dignitaries and lookenspeepers can play the usual bus game, "guess the psychosis of your seatmate" ... the "TA bus on wheels" was actually designed for bright-light tunnel and structure inspection and also contained (it's been a while for me) some really neat toys for checking track flaws and pretty much allows the TA to get a feel for the system without calling in Sperry to use the "REAL RAIL BUS" to check for detailed flaws.
My silliness aside, that IS the "TA rail inspection car" ... been around for quite a while now, surprised it can still roll.
I think that car is almost as old as I am! (LOL)
That's the OFFICIAL "MTA School bus"
If I'm thinking of the right one its even painted yellow now, kinda like a school (or "cheese" :) bus.
I was indeed ... it was also "Holy Ronan Empired" ... hey! Maybe they could paint it RED with a black roofline. Nah. :)
That's the SPERRY car, the round shaped track car.
The one in the photo is the "observation car" ... the SPERRY unit is an intersting mongrel and looks MUCH different:
Here's OF-116 "Observation car" in its native environs:
and HERE is the SPERRY car ... *THIS* is the "track geometry car:
Did they take all those headlights from scrapped train cars and put them on the observation car ;-). Wow that is still running, I haven't seen that in some time, imagine that was a fleet of train cars it would be very interesting [notice the Redbird behind it]. Its been so long since I've seen the Sperry car I forgot how it looked.
The SPERRY is a concerted PCC TROLLEY! And as for the "observation car" (read that as VIP tent) I recognized them headlamp housings in an INSTANT ... removed from Arnines! Strangest looking "car" I've ever seen - looks like they spliced a Mack bus onto an Arnine chassis, removed the motors and gave it "X files" lighting grid to spook track workers. I'm guessing though that OM-whatever draws SO much electricity for the freaking lights that there's nada left for the traction motors, therefore it MUST be pushed by something that WON'T dim out Staten Island. :)
The observation car is basically a "school bus" on tracks :-). Did you see the front of the obaservation car, it does look like a split Mack bus. You could imagine how bright those lights must be in a tunnel, they should give track workers those old R9 lights on their helmets in addition to their orange vests so T/O's could see them better.
Yeah, but GEEZ ... if I was yanking on a trip cock, and that thing cruised by on an adjacent track, I'd be begging Mr. Green to KILL me for fear that the mothership would have me otherwise. I mean LOOK at that damned thing. It'd BLIND anyone on an adjacent, and instantly turn trackworkers into blind "mole people" ...
Heypaul, insert video HERE. :)
Those lights make the school bus more odd looking than it already is . With the amount of lights it got, you could probably see all the rats in the Montague rathole ;-)
With THAT many lights, I imagine they break out the tophats and canes and provide a floorshow. I mean that thing must look like something out of "X files" barreling down a tunnel. :)
Have you ever seen the rail grinder in operation? Now THAT'S a floor show!
Well, back when I was in the system, it was several flatcar-like (weird looking things) monstrosities with lost of grinding wheels spinning with yellow sparks being thrown out as it moved slowly. Dunno what they're doing these days though. I doubt those grinders would still be working after 30 years and change. I'm a throwback to the days when WHEEL grinding was done OFF the axles on rotary machines in the Coney shop (another great light show) ... nowadays I hear they do those "in place" with the machinery below the rail and the wheels aren't taken off the axles anymore.
The old "grinder train" was a sight to behold though.
It sounded like the Apocalypse, too. I wonder how that unusual piece of equipment was maintained, as it surely would have seen lots of wear from friction alone.
There were a lot of very interesting and unique people down at Coney that, if left alone for a few hours, probably could have turned out submarines down there. I'm sure there were three or four people whose only job on the line was keeping all those wheels turning ...
I wish I were able to see that. Hey Selkirk, which do you think is brighter, the lights on the "school bus" or the sparks created from the grinding ;-)? Wow, I bet that would be very interesting seeing all the sparks.
Oh the edge for brightness would OBVIOUSLY go to the "Magic Schoolbus" ... the grinder train had a lot of wheels underneath it, but the "sparks" were your typical steel grinding, not all that terribly impressive, but it had a LOT of "heads" on various angles. Quite an interesting thing to watch as it went by. If you've ever held a knife or a tool to a grinder wheel, that was pretty much it - just a LOT of grinders along the consist ... Dave Letterman would have gotten into it. :)
Its still interesting to see grinding in general, although the sparks will go in different directions. As for the 'school bus', well you'll need super goggles to keep you from getting blind from the light; and we thought subway sparks were bright[which they are] but nothing would probably compare to the 'bus'; and it just happened to be painted yellow :0).
Have you ever seen the rail grinder in operation? Now THAT'S a floor show!
The Sperry car and track geometry car are different.
The track geometry car is STILL silver and blue and says TRACK INSPECTION CAR on the side.
Here's a picture:
and behing it you can see TGC1, the other track geometry car
THTA looks like something purchased after I left the city. I sit corrected then, didn't know about that one.
It may sound like a dumb question but I have to ask this. What does the SPERRY car actually do? Does it do the same job as the Track Geometry cars?
Also, the SPERRY unit was a noisey little son-of-a-gun. First time I saw it, I was 4 years old and waiting for an R train at Dekalb Ave. Me and my mother were heading to the World Trade Center that day when that monster showed up. Scared the s**t out of me. I saw the Track Geometry car a year later and had flashbacks of "The Taking of Pelham 123". What else was I supposed to think seeing a silver/blue single car passing Lexington Ave on the N and R line? But the Geometry car sounded like a flying saucer compared to the SPERRY. That time I was curious, not freaked out.
The Sperry car WAS a track geometry car and in particular, a "defect spotter" ... I'm guessing that the TG's have probably replaced the older Sperry jobbie which was actually an old PCC trolley converted to the task if I remember right ... never saw the TG's before though until Pigs posted them today, so I'd guess they're modern day replacements.
Cool, thanks.
>>> The Sperry car WAS a track geometry car and in particular, a "defect spotter" <<<
I thought the second function, defect spotter was the purpose of the Sperry car. It did not check the alignment of the tracks (track geometry) but checked for cracks and other defects in the rails with ultra sonics.
Tom
Never set foot on it, you're probably right though. I was under the impression that the Sperry pretty much did both but I could be wrong.
It looks beautiful to me.
Ah, the old days. Concourse Yard - say 1978 - 1979 - R10's signed up for CC local rush-hour service. Breaking down or derailing halfway to Rockaway Park.........
Interesting consist behind the track geometry car - looks like R40M's with some pre-Redbird IRT cars.
I don't see it happening again.
I seriously doubt that it would go back to graffiti on the cars [aka deferred maintenance days], and plus the MTA's budget gap is probably NOT as large as we think.
Is the MTA's budget gap as large as they WANT us to think it is?
Hint of politics ... there are "expense" agencies and there are "revenue" agencies in the state ... if people hand an agency money (hint, Tax and Finance, DMV, Division of the Lottery and MTA are all "revenue agencies") then you merely cut the subsidies and charge the revenue agencies a higher "general fund offset" and voila, the turnstyles suddenly become a state tax. MTA gets whatever's left over. Joe Bruno's HUNGRY ...
THIS is your MTA ... this is your MTA on "chargebacks" ... any questions? :)
Maybe Bruno's hugry for Paturkey as well 8-). Seriously, the MTA already takes a surcharge from the ligh or gas bill[I forget which one]. Don't give any ideas about a turnstile tax, that may make it look justified to give a fare increase :-\.
The surcharge is from your phone bill. So reach out and pay up. :-\
That extra .25% on the sales tax is also an MTA surcharge.
And STILL they want MORE and cry BROKE! If the MTA's books were open I'd understand their "needs" better and swo would everybody else!
It's a DONE DEAL according to my buddies in Division of the Budget who have CLOSED their case for the coming year. MTA will be handed numbers one week from Wednesday in the bound volumes of the "Budget" which are already being PRINTED ... the calculations are "$2.50 fare" ... THAT'S THE PRICE, $2.50 ... if MTA wants to CUT things to lower the amount, that's up to the MTA ... mass firings, no maintenance, no cleaning, no car orders, no facilities ... it's all up to the MTA to do with what they get. They're getting ... "hot lunch" ...
Rest of the state is getting 5-10% *FIRINGS* ... but each agency is given a cash amount to work with, HOW they deal with that cash amount is up to them and the political pressures brought to bear.
BOTTOM LINE: Joe Bruno is going to get a shiny, brand new "Joe Bruno Saratoga Amtrak Station" ... that's the ***ONLY*** thing not going to be cut out of the budget. Phuck yas all, says Joe ... and your silly N train. Sorry, dat's reality and it's being PRINTED as I type ...
For $2.50 they better be bringing me a hot lunch when I ride.
And not no public school hot lunch neither ;-). The system would really have to be a "grand royal" system for $2.50 all right. That means less timers[except where necessary], more service, an expansion of the current system, more renovated stations, at least 90% of cars have working A/C & heating, better train cars and proper "hot lunch", you got a deal. Not for the current system, ABSOLUTELY NOT but I really don't think it would be $2.50, that's totally unreasonable, I say $2 is probably the best figure at this point but $1.75 would be better.
Heh ... well, like "code blue" in a hospital which means "someone's CROAKING in my emergency room", the term "hot lunch" is a transit euphemism for "lock out this car, someone threw up on the floor and it smells BAD" ... I don't think you want a political "hot lunch" I can assure you. :(
Check this out: This is FDNY. This is FDNY on EMS...$71 million in the hole on ambulance billing. Yeah, and Guiliani wanted FDNY to take EMS away from HHC so FDNY would become a "revenue producing agency". Instead, FDNY is now the third biggest debtor agency in NYC. Anyone want to guess what'll happen to our transit agencies if our government doesn't do what it KNOWS it should?
Brains and politics are mutually exclusive. Whoever gives the most cash to the anointed gets to walk away with the contract. And CLEARLY a Zogby-quality tink thank came up with THAT idea.
Wanna have a laugh? "Change-NY," the organization that *IS* Paturkey and Bruno just went BANKRUPT. Says it all, it does it does ...
You're either a "disbursement" agency or a "profit center" to docudroids and adminiswigs ... and when the going gets tough, the tough go borrowing. But MTA is going to SHEET themselves when they see their 40% cash cut and have to decide what to do about it. :(
Did Change NY go bankrupt morally or financially?
Heh. Thanks for asking. Yeah, BOTH ... "Change NY" has found a whole NEW scam in "faith-based edumication" ala Shrub and their executive council is now working with their Paturkey creating "CHARTER SCHOOLS" and is opening one in Albany on YOUR tax wallet. Seems running "faith based edumication" is *FAR* more enriching than being a pesky lobbying group. So now, instead of "protecting" you wallet, they are SUCKING it.
TRUE Republicanism, Enron style. Yep, PROUD to be ... narf ...
Seeing Concourse yard like that brings back memories. As a former graffiti artist, this brings tears to my eyes. Of course, I've matured and retired from subway graffiti, but it would not surprise me if it did show up again. But nowadays, very unlikely. Graffiti on an R142 or R143 wouldn't look so hot. There was something about the fleets from R10-R36 that graffiti improved their look on the outside, not the inside. I don't count the World's Fair R36/33S because they had a beauty all in their own. Main Line trains needed a little color in their appearance. I've read through the years that the MTA paint scheme was boring and undesirable compared to cars' original scheme. But I had a real boner when IRT cars came out in white. A clean, unobstructed canvas. But, however through time, we mature and learn to take more responsibility for our actions. Back then, I was a kid and knew no better. Now, my graffiti stays on a real artist canvas. If anything, just to get back on topic, graffiti might return, but very unlikely. Regardless of financial state, the MTA would not want to risk ruining new subway cars, buses, and stations. Not after spending millions, even billions of dollars to shape up the system. We can thank Dr. William Ronan for the fall of the subway system.
I used to sell my artwork of subway cars with grafitti on them to the tourists in Midtown. Now when I paint or draw "today's" trains, everybody says "where's the grafitti?". It just makes the picture look more dramatic. Ironic, huh?:-)
True that. I make subway car bookmarks for my books. A few of my friends like to buy them from me. They prefer my Redbird bookmarks, but going along with the times, I retired them from my catalog. My R142's come out good, but not like the redbirds. R62's and current B Division fleets are popular among my pals. Only once did I make an R16 in the redbird scheme and at this moment, my pals are fighting over it. They're bidding it like it's an auction in my house. My bookmarks are 75 cents each and the bid for the R16 bookmark is at $20 now. I sure hate to disappoint them, knowing that it's not for sale.
Nah.
No more R-10's.
On New Years Day...I rode one of the relatively new 2 trains to Flatbush Avenue. Low and behold....the Glass is all scratched up as well as the seats!
What PIGS and slobs there are in this City! To destroy public property for their own so called "Amusement".
IMHO the fare should be raised to $2.50 a ride...keep the ulimited passes....and let the working class get a tax break on their Federal Income tax returns for using public transportation. Those who file an income tax return, including dependents of those who file, get the tax releif. Deadbeats and tax evaders....well as the story goes....they get lost.
IMHO the scum that deface public property should be put to work, along with minimum security prisioners, to clean the public transportation system of this city. NYC should follow the rest of the nation in this respect...in the south minium security prisioners and those that have earned trust have been presented the opportunity to "pay society back" for their offenses. In return, prisioners are taught some basic skills that can earn them a future and maybe a job upon release.
Enough is enough...free lunches to the degenerates that disrespect propety and values of the tax paying citizens of this city have not worked. No more prisons with weight rooms and projection color TV's.
What PIGS and slobs there are in this City!
This is just gratuitous anti-swinitism. I understand calling lazy and dirty people pigs, because that fits the pig stereotype (it's still wrong), but how is there anything slovenly about scratchiti? Is scratchiti something that happens when people lie around doing jack shit and it requires effort to not do it?
Alright, we've had subways on TV, we've had Busses on TV, we've even had buses and subways in movies, well now we've got a whole new one!
Metrocards on TV!
I was just watching an old Saturday Night Live episode on Comedy Central, Chevy Chase's (the host, it wasn't that old) character was talking with a nut running a newstand played by Mark McKinney about NBC 4's NewsChopper. It wasn't a bad sketch, kinda drawn out though. Anyway, at the end they zoom out from the "NewsStand" set and you can see a blue metrocard sign next to or on top of the NYlotto poster.
Yay! A metrocard on TV. and No, I don't live close enough to get the MTA's commercials, so this is the first time i've seen one (ever notice how no TV or Movie character seems to swipe or deposit change in the machine prior to entering the subway?)
BLUE Metrocard ?........dated episode of course.
Bill "Newkirk"
That episode originally aired on February 15, 1997. It would be only a few months before Metrocard went gold.
22 derailments. Red tags all over the system. Passengers staging mutinies on OOS trains. 30-minute headways during the DAY. Abyssmally poor MDBF numbers, even for the newer cars. Rampant graffiti. 1983, the low point of deferred maintenance. It CAN happen again.
Everything CAN happen again. The British can conquer North America again. Communism could rise again.
I think that's why the fare will be MORE than two dollars ... aside from Bruno needing some funny munny to throw around DESPITE the state's finances. After all, he's republican and it's those OTHER guys that "tax and spend" ... hell no ... BORROW and spend is *MUCH* better, and orgasmic if you can provide a tax cut for the rich in addition. Check out the debt clock. Amazingly, those who are "connected" STILL get their tips on when to buy and sell, and make money even when everyone else DOESN'T ...
But no, the money will be found - one more week until the MTA gets their "numbers" and can decide WHO to screw ... just like their puppeteers in Smallbany ...
I'm just trying to point up what WILL happen (shouldn't have said "can") if the folks in Albany and City Hall allow maintenance to slip. 20 years ago the fare was 75 cents but operating costs were lower, too. I'm still amazed that such a safety-critical area as maintenance was allowed to become so slipshod. I doin't have figures, but some of the accident-related lawsuits arising from this must have truly been astonishing.
Yes, it WILL happen again. Only the fact that the subway was built to ten times its necessary strength kept it from being worse than it was last time.
No, it WILL NOT.
They'll drop the ball on something else, but they will never defer maintenance again.
Are you willing to bet your life on that?
You were the one who brought it up. Maybe you should bet your life.
I DON'T trust public agencies to always look out for my interests (such as my life). That's why I'm ranting about deferred maintenance now. If enough of us (railfan and non-) start yelling about it, and voting consistently and regularly, then maybe it won't happen again.
I DON'T trust public agencies to always look out for my interests (such as my life).
I never trust public agencies to look out for my interests, EVER.
The people at the MTA look out for their own interests: their jobs. They won't keep them if there is deferred maintenance, because the plutocrats WILL NOT tolerate it this time.
Voting has no meaning now ... everyone had their chance in November. But they believed the doublespeak and carnival barkers. Now it's time to bend over and pucker up. Proud to be ... screwed ...
Two years to the next election and the lawgivers you all reupped are about to flip you the bird and give you your own personal cab blessing. The hard way ... :(
There will be a council election this November.
So you're right, no changes for another two years.
Here's how Unca Selkirk calls it ... the STATE needs MONEY. The TA can probably continue to run as is with a $1.75 fare. With $2.00, all is guaranteed to pretty much remain in statis. State decides however to CUT OFF ALL TRANSIT FUNDING (watch for the "Governor's budget message" next week along with State of the State WEDNESDAY - WILL be carried on your NYS PBS station LIVE in both circumstances) ... TA must do 100% fare recovery (or VERY close to) ... in addition, STATE will TAKE money from the subways ... why? So as to keep MNRR, LIRR fare hikes to a MINIMUM. Why? Republican voters. SCREW NYC ...
$2.25? $2.50? we'll ALL know soon enough. Layoffs, DEFINITELY. 5% to 10% is what I've been hearing ... car cleaning? DEFINITELY will be cut back, since suits won't hit the silk without a cash incentive ... reality time is nigh ...
Reality time! Demographics have always played a part in where the funding goes. The wealthier suburban communities, who have more disposable income to give out as campaign contributions, will always get favorable consideration vis-a-vis rail transport. City dwellers, who pay the lion's share of the MTA's costs, but are not affluent, will suffer proportionally higher fare increases, fewer trains, and deferred maintenance.
As one of our brethren here put it, "suit covered anuses" ... but don't be bitter ... they're getting the "you ain't the upper 1% EITHER" treats from their benefactor party. Those of us upstate, known to be sheep, already GOT our 35% property tax hikes and our 62% SCHOOL TAX hikes ... that got held off for the election in "shaky suburban counties" ... so THEY get a DOUBLE-DIP of Paturkey gravy NEXT fiscal year. They're already projecting numbers for Suffolk, Westchester, Rockland, Putnam, and Sullivan counties coming towards a 78% PROPERTY tax hike (unfunded state mandates pushed off to counties) and a 150% SCHOOL tax hike (end of state funding formula, also imposed on counties) all as part of Paturkey's little secret settlement for the NYC school discriminations suit ... LOCALITIES will fund that now, state's out of it entirely.
So those who voted for Paturkey and their GOP cronies are about to get it rammed up their snout. Political reasoning? Same as Caso did in Nassau for years - stuff it up their stovepipe NOW, and they'll forget all about it in two years and vote for me again ... always worked, will again. The next two years are the political X files, and in any two year gap between "real" elections, the politicos hand out the bacon to their buddies and shaft everyone else. Bend over, pope on a rope ...
Oh, please don't get me started on the GOP! For example, why is it that I just paid my prop tax (NYC) in June, but now am being jacked again this month. I got a letter saying "Fork it over, even if you made full payment in June". What is this, are they saying "we screwed up, but we can make YOU pay"? Meanwhile I now have less income to pay for upcoming fare increases, let alone everything else.
Extracting "larger and loarger sums from an ever shrinking tax base" as Whitley Streiber once wrote, will culminmate in either tax revolt or drastic reductions in ALL public services. (That's ALREADY happening.) If I am expected as an individual to budget my money responsibly, then why mot the MTA, or all our government agencies?
New Yorkers are SHEEP ... and NO, it's *NOT* the city's fault. The STATE refused to pay up THEIR share, and then enacted retroactive taxation ... THAT'S what happened. WE got nailed in October. Paturkey was running for re-up, so he "pocketed" the bill until November 7th ... sent it along to ALL state tax agencies the day after his "selection" as GOOBERnor ... GOTCHA!!!
And that was LAST year's screwage. Just wait until you see the NEXT bill - it'll be AT LEAST DOUBLE THAT! I ain't sheeting here ... last year's "budget deficit" was about $2 billion. This COMING year's deficit is currently pegged at $12.4 BILLION ...
DO the math ... run like hell ...
A little two-horse town in the Southeast has been trying to hire me to run their EMS system (three ambulances.) There's no subways there but the salary's good, the taxes are low, and the town government wants to throw in an incentive package. Do I run (and give up the benefits of living in a big city) or stay (and keep making the fat cats fatter?)
A little two-horse town in the Southeast has been trying to hire me to run their EMS system (three ambulances.) There's no subways there but the salary's good, the taxes are low, and the town government wants to throw in an incentive package. Do I run (and give up the benefits of living in a big city) or stay (and keep making the fat cats fatter?)
GO!!!!!!!!!!
It'll be the best decision you'll ever make.
I've been trying for weeks to convince Selkirk to move, as he has a "mobile" occupation as best I can tell, but he's determined to stay in New York. Please don't make a similar mistake, seize the opportunity. I'd sell my soul for the chance to live in the Sunbelt, but my job ties me here.
Then why do you SEEM to care about the NEW YORK CITY Subway.
Yeah, I'm kinda trapped by OWNING the house I live in AND owning the building where the company is. And have LOTS to pay on both entities. New York's got me (heh, like I'm alone) by the short-hairs.
But ya know? Ain't much culture up where I am (I have to come down THERE for it) and ain't much of anything other than being left alone among some REALLY NICE Albany county compatriots who have proven to me time and time again that we all watch out for one another AND respect each other's privacy ... I've ALWAYS loved New York and I *still* do.
I just hope that others love ME enough to keep buying our mud so I can afford to STAY in New York. About the only other places in the United STATES that I appreciate to a degree is Northern California, Colorado (just a few parts) and PITTSBURGH. But I'd MUCH rather be here as long as Perth, Australia doesn't welcome emigration nor does Montreal. :\
It sucks, but there's no better place on earth than New York ... I just WISH we'd had something better than Mark Green, Andrew Cuomo or Gasbag Golisano to be our "leeder" ... this country's going STRAIGHT to hell, and its name be the GOP ... and up HERE, we're willing to brandish our shooting irons to make them phuckers leave the property. Once, I was a proud republican ... it finally took Trent Lott to demonstrate to everyone else why the GOP is full of ... Bruno ...
Yeah, I'm stuck too. Not by home ownership or by business, but try as I might I can't see myself anywhere else but NYC. The subway is only part of the reason I stay. My job is another--I work in one of the biggest EMS systems in the world--so I can always get my "trauma fix": plenty of challenging calls to go to. Another reason I stay is everything I want is here, from the convenience store on the corner to the fact that Bway and Greenwich Village are only a subway ride away.
Yes, I pay a lot of money for these things, and my salary relative to the cost of living isn't that good. But even with that Sunbelt offer pending, I know I just wouldn't be comfortable there. The trouble is, both my employer and the fat cats in Albany and City Hall KNOW this...
Yeh, we're ALL rubes for actually believing that the store on the corner REALLY IS "going out of business, 50% off" even if they've been on that corner for 60 years now, GOING out of business. :)
I was borna and raised in NYC, born in Wadsworth Hospital in Washington Heights, lived the first half of my life in the Bronx, second half upstate. I've travelled a LOT in my earlier years, been pretty much everywhere that was "hot" ... and just kept coming BACK to New York because there's nothing else like it in the WORLD. Upstate or down, it's MAGIC ... even if it's more expensive than Dizzy Orlando.
But yeah, if MONEY is your motivation, THIS PLACE SUCKS ... but if it's SOUL you want, and the finest people on the phucking PLANET, there's nothing else LIKE New York for keeping it all TOO real. :)
But for what you do, East Buttfuck WOULD appreciate your talents and experience. But ya gotta ask yourself before you get on the bangbus, "ARE they spongeworthy?" Heh.
Nah, they're not worthy. I mean, what am I gonna do down there, respond to a call of a Cow Down? Also the corner store is thirty miles away down there. I know. When they were trying to sell me on relocating there, I had to drive 20 minutes on unlit 2-lane horse trail to find it. Plus THERE ARE NO TRAINS. Not even Amtrak. :-(
COW DOWN?!?!?! Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding (five bells HERE) ... If Bossie croaks UPSTATE, it's back on food stamps again. But yeah, if you're living in da chitty and the pace doesn't give you dyspepsia, then Cowpone, AL just AIN'T gonna cut it for ya ...
Besides, the E911 dispatch is likely to have insects which will result in screens like this:
Yahoo ... woo.
oh please don't do that! I almost busted a gut LOL!!!!!!
It's LIKE that. Consider your moves. Outta towners will ALWAYS diss Noo Yawk, but let's face it ... ain't no place LIKE Noo Yawk for so many reasons ... even IF you bust yer wallet doing it. We'se a BLOO state, dadgummit ... that ALONE is worth staying put. :)
But that dog STILL won't hunt ... file a G2 and it goes away. Until crew call in the morning. Heh.
Hey, Jay. STAY!!!!!!!!!! I've been accused of being a wide-eyed Midwestern newbie (guilty), but I've lived in, and like, New Mexico, Wisconsin, and Ohio -- the cities -- and detested Mississippi and Georgia, both big and small. You have a taste for mobility and it will be GONE down there. The politicians are BAD NEWS and they HIDE it, and everyone conspires to keep it hidden. Here, it gets reported, discussed, they get thrown out someday (yeah, the new ones are worse, but they're new, unlike the South), and there's motion. Don't let strangers in Albany drive you out. It's all temporary.
But yeah, if MONEY is your motivation, THIS PLACE SUCKS ... but if it's SOUL you want, and the finest people on the phucking PLANET, there's nothing else LIKE New York for keeping it all TOO real. :)
Except you can't eat soul. Can't eat people either, fine or otherwise. Well, usually not.
That's OK ... I have faith in our current "leaders" ... human flesh, if cooked properly, tastes like chicken. Republicans eat their young. Once State of the State and Budget School are done, we'll have PROFF. :)
Now, now. Republicans only eat their young if they don't grow up to be President.
And when they get "selected" they eat their daughters ...
Natch:
http://www.google.com/search?q=bush+daughters
In my OLD days, both would have gotten cab blessings. :)
human flesh, if cooked properly, tastes like chicken.
I heard it tastes like pork.
>>> I heard it tastes like pork. <<<
It depends on the recipe. How it is cooked (if it is cooked), spices used, etc. :-)
Tom
Yeah, I'm stuck too. Not by home ownership or by business, but try as I might I can't see myself anywhere else but NYC. The subway is only part of the reason I stay. My job is another--I work in one of the biggest EMS systems in the world--so I can always get my "trauma fix": plenty of challenging calls to go to. Another reason I stay is everything I want is here, from the convenience store on the corner to the fact that Bway and Greenwich Village are only a subway ride away.
Staying in New York because of your job is one thing. That's basically my situation too; I've been at my job for almost ten years, and would be perfectly happy staying there until retirement 20 or 25 years from now. Even though I'd be ecstatic to be able to live in the Sunbelt, that's not a realistic possibility unless my company relocates. One of these compromises one has to make in life, I guess.
On the other hand, my employer has major operations in suburban Dallas, and there's always hope ...
Moving to Dallas is DEFINTELY a good thing for anyone happy to do so, means that a TRUE New Yorker can have that job, and they're in short supply now. My OWN attitude is if someone wants to move to a RED state, don't let the door smack yer butt. :)
Moving to Dallas is DEFINTELY a good thing for anyone happy to do so, means that a TRUE New Yorker can have that job, and they're in short supply now. My OWN attitude is if someone wants to move to a RED state, don't let the door smack yer butt. :)
If I moved to Dallas, I'd be doing so because my job moved. Hence there'd be no new job opening in New York.
Tell your employer you like DARTs...and there's a big DART board in Dallas...(lol)
If you think it will advance your career, and that the position is truly as they advertise, then go (you can always come back at some point).
But beware: An opportunity like that can be wonderful, or, because it's a little town (and you can run out of allies very quickly), it can turn into hell's worst nightmare.
My wife is doing something analogous here in Kansas City.
I'd sell my soul for the chance to live in the Sunbelt.
That IS the definition of moving to the Sunbelt.
Ha, now the people who voted for Paturkey will feel the repercussions NOW, hehehe. Voters fell in his trap especially when he "miraculously" found $200+ million in health care, ha too bad people didn't vote for McCall or Golisano [I didn't vote though] ;-). See how politicians are so successful, they make sugar coat promises, then forget about them then people get mad BUT yet he's re-elected anyway :-\. Now chances are the MTA's budget gap is NOT $1.1 billion[someone here said they had a $630M surplus] so the top brass just want to have a bigger paycheck, they're a bunch of greedy, corrupted corporate assholes who don't give a shit about the people who ride the system, think about it.
While I'd agree that the MTA board is inhabited by people who would NEVER ride the train (much like those suit-covered anuses profiled in the previous post where a businesscreep involed in Harvey Audio said, in essence, "I have to ride a TRAIN with THOSE PEOPLE) the people who are going to have to deal with this pile of parrot droppings forthcoming in the FY2003/2004 budget (which will *NOT* be passed in time to prevent much further, DEEPER damage [budget is due April 1, 2003 and won't happen until SEPTEMBER if at all]) are your poor old tired grade 18's and such ...
Executive board will do "attritions" since "early retirement" has pretty much already gotten rid of anyone who WANTED to go when times were fat ... the whole "NO LAYOFF" clause in the TWU contract being thrown overboard gives the MTA EXACTLY the fiscal leverage they wanted - shed 30% of the TWU, cut back the trains, don't clean 'em, fire the car inspectors and their superintendants ("Consolidation of car maintenance facilities" was one of the BIG proposed "study group recommendations" in consolidating 12 car shops into TWO) and a number of other economies including 50% cuts to car cleaning and station cleaning, 20% service reductions AND a $2.00 fare (elimination of the V train, elimination of the M southern division, elimination of the Sea Beach and turning it into a shuttle as WELL as the West End), D train full time local, Q train, full time local and numerous other "attrition, what ... are they going to take the BUS?" study group things were all put together as options for MTA to CONSIDER.
MTA's reality is, they get cut 40% ... HOW they implement those cuts are up to them. None of the study group ideas are workable, and MTA is not obligated to read or listen to ANY of them. Bottom line, how do they cut the 40%? And is the 40% ***REAL*** ... Governor's budget message will tell, then it's up to political dickering and horsetrading, ASSUMING they pass the budget in time. For the last 18 years, the budget has been late ...
THIS year promises to be the latest EVER ... and the longer it takes, the HIGHER the costs once reality strikes, since in the ABSENCE of a budget, agency spending continues at the OLD levels ... woe is us. :(
Ahh, submitting the budget late shall continue for the forseeable future, with Paturkey at the helm oh yeah.
[>>"Executive board will do "attritions" since "early retirement" has pretty much already gotten rid of anyone who WANTED to go when times were fat ... the whole "NO LAYOFF" clause in the TWU contract being thrown overboard gives the MTA EXACTLY the fiscal leverage they wanted - shed 30% of the TWU, cut back the trains, don't clean 'em, fire the car inspectors and their superintendants ("Consolidation of car maintenance facilities" was one of the BIG proposed "study group recommendations" in consolidating 12 car shops into TWO) and a number of other economies including 50% cuts to car cleaning and station cleaning, 20% service reductions AND a $2.00 fare (elimination of the V train, elimination of the M southern division, elimination of the Sea Beach and turning it into a shuttle as WELL as the West End), D train full time local, Q train, full time local and numerous other "attrition, what ... are they going to take the BUS?" study group things were all put together as options for MTA to CONSIDER.<<"]
This would basically be a repeat of the 1970's. What alternate service would they provide if the N & West End is cut back to a full time shuttle, whoa you're telling me that people would have to depend on the R :-o??!! Fred would really have a fit if his Sea Beach was cut back ALL times. Eliminating the Brighton express, are they crazy that will cause a riot[can't mess with our Brighton line] and would just be dumb.
And you think the buses would be good, right WRONG! The cuts would be even deeper like reducing or eliminating LTD stop service, service reductions, long waits on frequent routes IN the rush hour, more breakdowns will occur, service reductions all together, long gaps btw ordering new buses and we get hit with a fare increase anyway thats pure bullshit if this happens again!
*ANY* decisions to cut back service, modify service, or whatever lies ENTIRELY with the MTA board ... what I mentioned were the hare-brained schemes of Division of the Budget who would hold MTA's feet to the fire if they asked for more money than they're GETTING ...
There was an agency that spread TERROR when I was a docudroid - it was called "LCER" or "legislative Committee for Expenditure Review" that would swoop down on "revenue agencies" and nickel and dime EVERY decision EVERYWHERE and pronounce in a report to the legislature that "we recommended X and the agency failed to carry out our recommendations" ... I'm told LCER has become toothless, but the "mission statement" continues in earnest. When LCER's folks tell you "Cut this, change this, do that" you'd BETTER listen ... ultimately though, the AGENCY so directed must CHOOSE ... or be abolished, members of the board "reorganized" or other methods to resolve the outcome of the "study group" ...
Ultimately, ALL of this nonsense is up the the MTA as to how they will evaluate, study, and carry out the whims of the porcine. But these ARE recommendations that Division of the Budget has studied, and the conviction is that the 3 line could run from Lenox terminal to 145 as a shuttle, the 5 only needs to go to Dyre as a shuttle out of E180, the 2 can carry ALL express traffic on the Lex (though it doesn't RUN there) as well as Broadway and the 1,9 and 6 can take up the slack ... (they were PROUD of THAT decision) ... their "considerations" for other lines were even MORE nuts ...
But like I said, they only offer "suggestions" ... the BUDGET provides the real dollars, and if an agency chooses to do something else, that's FINE by them so long as no ADDITIONAL dollars are requested. The dollars GRANTED are based on these hair-brained schemes.
Might not mean much to RAILFANS, but "consolidation of 12 car maintenance shops into 2" gets me instantly as "huh?" Screw the line truncations ... where the hell are they going to layup CARS? And there's only X amount of tracks to put "troubles" on and yet this hairbrained scheme STILL got pitched ... shows a TOTAL lack of how the subways operate ... but such is the depth of mind of our lawgivers ... :(
>>"Might not mean much to RAILFANS, but "consolidation of 12 car maintenance shops into 2" gets me instantly as "huh?" Screw the line truncations ... where the hell are they going to layup CARS? And there's only X amount of tracks to put "troubles" on and yet this hairbrained scheme STILL got pitched ... shows a TOTAL lack of how the subways operate ... but such is the depth of mind of our lawgivers ... :("<<
12 maintenance shops cut down to TWO! What the hell is that, CI and 207 would be heavily overloaded and costs would go up dramatically. Sorry Selkirk, but I'm not buying this, this is just going overboard. Remember when laying-up cars were common in the 1980's, look at how the kids got a lot of their art[graffiti] on the subway cars. I agree with you, where would you lay up all the cars in need of maintenance. They're really not thinking straight :-\.
Like I said many times, this is the thinking of SMALLBANY at play here ... but this "concept" *IS* going to be put before the MTA board among many OTHER stupid ideas I'm not as passionate about. The adminiswigs and docudroids up here see the MAJOR saving for MTA to consider to reduce the impact of the fare (NYS gets 75 CENTS, MTA can use whatever's left over) is reductions of MAJOR proportions in station agents, car cleaners, operations of "redundant trains" where ANOTHER train services those stations (in other words, anything that fees into a "mainline" should be a shuttle TO that mainline in the same mindset and spirit as the "Franklin shuttle" (no offense to Frankie fans) ... in other words, whatever local runs from the deepest part of any "mainline" should be the ONLY train that goes to Manhattan and any OTHER train that "meets" it would just be a shuttle. The PLAN is to even turn the mighty Selkirk spiritual D train into a shuttle from the Bronx that has a southbound terminal at 145, where Bronx peons can just change for the A local ... This IS the mindset up here, though NONE of this will come to fruition since MTA makes the ultimate choice and Paturkey appoints the ... oooo ... nevermind ... well, we'll see ...
But yeah, the thinking behind the "let's get rid of the 32's and up" WAS a real plan ... if there's just 143's and 160's, CONEY can fix 'em, why do we have so MANY car shops ... THAT surprised me in the "braincramping" (the folks in Albany were AMAZED that there was more than ONE car shop in the system) ... but just like OPTO and eventually ATC in 40 years, they plan to have only ONE car shop eventually and budget pressures caused them to think of ways to get it down to two in the next year or two (also not going to happen) ...
Don't ya just LOVE Joe Bruno and his gasbag chorus?
This makes no sense. I can see them putting out these rumors to scare people and have them DEMAND a fare hike instead, but there's no way any of these express removals and cutbacks to shuttles are happening.
Yeah, don't quite know WHAT to make of it, and as I repeatedly point out, the outcome of any of this is ENTIRELY in the hands of the MTA to consider or reject any of these "ideas" from folks who have no idea of what a subway LOOKS like, much less having actually ridden one. But what we have here is a collection of study groups offering (ahem) "options" and nothing more. And to the uninformed to participate in these braincramp exercises, it would seemingly "make sense" if you had no idea of how things work on the BMT. Their "logic" is that these lines are "short runs," "Coney Island is closed, so shuttles will suffice" and the same kind of logic that, were it not for community outrage, would have killed the Franklin shuttle years ago.
This weekend, Sheldon Silver was overheard suggesting "surcharges" on top of everything to balance the budget, and Bruno wants rent stabilization in NYC and *ALL* transit subsidies abolished from the budget. That would mean that MTA has to make up the money somehow and has already indicated that this isn't possible - that's why you get legislative aides cooking up schemes like this in the neverending game of budget brinksmanship that results in no budget at all, certainly never on time.
Stay tuned - "State of the State" is this Wednesday at noon, "Budget School" and "Executive Message" (budget release) is NEXT Wednesday. We'll all get to see actual, proposed numbers THEN ...
So those who voted for Paturkey and their GOP cronies are about to get it rammed up their snout. Political reasoning? Same as Caso did in Nassau for years - stuff it up their stovepipe NOW, and they'll forget all about it in two years and vote for me again ... always worked, will again. The next two years are the political X files, and in any two year gap between "real" elections, the politicos hand out the bacon to their buddies and shaft everyone else. Bend over, pope on a rope ...
New Yorker might get a better deal from their elected representatives if voters acted as if their I.Q. scores were over 75 or so. But no, city voters turn out in mindless, sheep-like, knee-jerk fashion for whatever schmuck bribed his way to the Democratic nomination, while suburban and upstate voters turn out in mindless, sheep-like, knee-jerk fashion for whatever schmuck bribed his way to the Republican nomination. A little swing voting would work wonders.
You betcha ... too late now though. There is expected to be a "gentrification" of public housing as webmaster cannot afford their $4500 a month loft rent and move to Stuyvesant or Marble Hill. I tell ya, as an observer of politics for better than 30 years now, I've never seen ANYTHING as cynical or criminal as what our susagecrafters are about to unleash on us ...
But hey, we're all shivering in our bomb shelters, fearing our OWN POLITICIANS telling us we're going to die at any minute. And we LOVE it ... wish I could feel sympathetic, but if any terrorists wish to come up here where I am, I'd be willing to make them ham hocks and feed them to the bears. But THIS time, the suburbs are going to get a sphincterful of "compassionate conservatism" in their tax bill ... I couldn't get OVER the numbers I was shown with GLEE from a few oldtimers with the "regime" in Smallbany ... winter heating bills and gasoline will give them a clue in the coming weeks.
Oh yeah, NEW gas tax, NEW beer, wine and soda taxes, additional cigarette taxes, and gambling EVERYWHERE EXCEPT NYC ... if folks in the city thought the state was shafting them before, wowsers ... but it's going to be FAR WORSE in Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, Rockland, Putnam, Sullivan, Orange and Dutchess counties ...
"State of the State" is THIS coming Wednesday at NOON ... "we are 13" WILL carry it live via NY Network (tape it) and ONE week later, "Budget school" (also carried on your PBS live) where the RELEASE of the budget documents will occur. It's at the printer's now and I've SEEN advance copies ... agencies nuked, mass layoffs, and some seriously NASTY stuff already in there - and THEN the legislature starts dickering over it and going nowhere ...
Just circuses, no bread ... :(
I don't see that happening but then again anything is possible. Not to mention almost non existent A/C on cars equipped with them, the trouble plagued R44's, heavy crime, the subway was just a jungle in those days.
I'm not too worried about deferred maintenance because its consequences are now well-known. Even the most obtuse transit managers know that it's just not worth the (temporary) savings.
AHhhhhhhh ... but does Joe BRUNO? He's the man who actually RUNS the state (cute pony farmer image-building in the Times notwithstanding) ... ulitmately it's up to the MTA who will have to play the budget cards they're dealt ...
But as far as Bruno is concerned, NYC resident can flipping walk. Oh yeah, OTHER big news ... NYC "rent stabilization" expires in JUNE ... there will NOT be a budget before then. As part of the "solution to the discal crisis, Joe Bruno will END ALL RENT CONTROL ... SET IN STONE, WORD ...
And this applies to "public housing" as well! "What the traffic will bear without excessive vacancies" will BE the price! No joke, it's IN there. :(
But as far as Bruno is concerned, NYC resident can flipping walk. Oh yeah, OTHER big news ... NYC "rent stabilization" expires in JUNE ... there will NOT be a budget before then. As part of the "solution to the fiscal crisis, Joe Bruno will END ALL RENT CONTROL ... SET IN STONE, WORD ...
If Joe Bruno succeeds in ending rent control, he'll be a hero in my eyes. Rent control is a ludicrous anachronism that is a big reason why New York is the nation's laughingstock. It was never meant to be anything but an emergency measure to deal with the disruptions caused by World War II. It has turned into a self-perpetuating monster that threatens to devour the city.
rent control may be imperfect, (I do electrical repairs, upgrades in resiential buildings in the Bay Area where SF, Berkeley, and Oakland have various levels of same) but without SOME restraints, ALL of Manhattan would long ago have become PARK Ave, and the workers would all be commuting from Trenton. Almost ALL of the anti-control agit-prop over the years has claimed rent control prevents new construction, despite the FACT that most rent control EXEMPTS new construction. As a further comment, the lack of sufficient housing in this nation supposedly the "only superpower" is to me acutely embarassing and shameful. The "utility" of the homeless as a visible threat to workers who are too "uppity" is a disgrace.
Rent control in NYC will DIE in June ... DONE DEAL ... Joe Bruno needs a new pair of gambling shoes ... and he intends to GET them, and screw YOU. Joe Bruno is ABOVE the "deficit" ... BORROW and SPEND ...
ALL of Manhattan would long ago have become PARK Ave, and the workers would all be commuting from Trenton.
Commuting from Trenton is obviously an exagerration, but if all of Manhattan became Park Avenue then SO WHAT? That's how the market works, people who want to live in a more convenient location should pay for the privilege. The current rent control system rewards people with sufficient connections to find a rent controlled apartment. Rent control discourages investment in the existing housing stock. Bronx burned in the 1970s on account of rent control.
If the government feels that certain people need to have lower rents than what the market will bear, then the government should subsidize these rents, so the landlord gets the same rent he would get in the market. And in that case such apartments should be available only to the infirmed or enfeebled.
The one time I didn't read all of the responses before making own.
You've said it much better than I did!
Joe Bruno will END ALL RENT CONTROL ... SET IN STONE, WORD ...
It's about time.
I'm not too worried about deferred maintenance because its consequences are now well-known. Even the most obtuse transit managers know that it's just not worth the (temporary) savings.
The likelihood of that happening again is low. NYC is just not the same as it was back then.
YAY! Hopefully this means that US&S signals and pneumatics will hang around for years to come! No replacement money is a GOOD things!
Sounds like a movie plot. :)
Yeah, but it was frighteningly real. Even the passenger mutinies. really. Truth stranger than fiction. Now, about the baby elephant Ringling Bros. lost off their circus train...
Has anyone been on a fan trip on the ex-Q BU train? If so, has it carried passengers on any subway sections? Which?
My memory is that wood car fan trip were never allowed in tunnel sections with passengers. The final 1300 series BU trip in 1958(?) covered Myrtle and Broadway and Canarsie but never touched an underground section. I'm wondering if the rule on wooden cars underground has been relaxed for the Museum.
The Transit Museum was supposed to have a fan trip on those cars in either 1998 or 1999. If was changed to the "D" types going to Canarsie instead of the orginal Lefferts Blvd to Rockaway Park trip. The wooden cars were not allowed in any subway tunnel, so even transfering at Euclid Ave. was not alowed. The orginal plan was the "D" type to Lefferts, The Q cars from Lefferts to Rockaway Park, and then back to Lefferts for the "D" type back to the museum. The cars could not be certified at that time. No other trips were planned with those cars again.
What happened to the IRT "Lo-V's"? They haven't been on a fan trip in about 3 years also.
You gotta go to Branford on both Member's Day (you have to be a member on that day but its worth it) and Autumn in New York. On both days you can spend the whole day riding the R-9, the R-17, the Low-V, the High-V, the "G" Car that WAS in the Transit Museum, a Bklyn Gate Car, a Bklyn PCC and a bunch of old trolleys. And on Members Day you get a choice of what car to operate. And the trackage at Branford is very scenic, almost like a mini version of the Rockaway Line.
You gotta go to Branford on ... Autumn in New York.
Autumn in New York is no more. Rather, it's been replaced with Subway Weekends. Quoting from the October issue of The Tripper, Branford's newsletter: "On the third weekend of each month May through October (May 17/18, Jun 21/22, Jul 19/20, Aug 16/17, Sep 20/21, Oct 18/19), a rapid transit car or train will be on display at the elevated station and will make one or two trips during the day. Our guest motorman promotion will be available on these days."
See y'all there?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was on that fantrip, Sat.August 30, 1980 to be exact.
The fantrip started at Prospect Park south bound track. The consist arrived with R-42's being used as horses. They uncoupled the R-42's and they took off. We boarded the BU's, highlights are as follows:
1) Movie run bys and poses on the Brighton Exp between Kings Hwy and Prospect Park. There were two round trips on the Brighton. We ventured up to Franklin Ave and back down the Shuttle tracing Luciano's steps. We slowed down before the tunnel and went through slow.
2) We left the Brighton through the Stillwell bypass and up the West End to Bay Parkway for lunch.
3) Various movie runs and poses on the West End. Back to Stillwell.
4) Various movie run bys and poses on the Sea Beach.
5) Back to Stillwell and up the Culver with poses and run bys.
6) Posing at Smith-9th Sts. End of trip.
It was a long day and a memorable one too.
Bill "Newkirk"
So you did "The Curve"?--that must have been just a little weird. Was Dougie on that trip? Did he become agitated as you passed Consumers Park? ;-)
But if you were at Smith-9th then you must have taken the subway section from Church Avenue? I am correct?
Thanks for the rundown, Bill!
Paul: I don't know if you could properly clasify them as fantrips but the BU's did run in passenger service at two Open House Events that I know of.
Saturday, October 19,1979: Coney Island Open House. Cars ran between the shop building around the outer loop track to the old bumping block at 86 Street Station on the Slow Beach Line.
Saturday, November 1,1980: 9 Avenue Shop Open House: Cars ran from 9 Avenue Yard via ramp and West End Express Track to s/o 62 Street, reversed and ran back to yard via northbound local track.
Larry, RedbirdR33
The new G train by Canarsie_R143, ONeilPhantom909 & Oren is out at
http://darkdefender187.tripod.com/nycta.html
The site's bandwidth might be exceeded if you try to access it...
I forgot to mention Robert Marerro, for his great works on BVE routes!!!
Did you get the R32 file needed to operate the E line?
?????
Sorry, the page or file you're looking for is not here.
?????
First
there is no current design for shoes that work of over and under running third rail.
second
Amtrak units did not and do not have shoes working on both over and under running third rail. the shoe mech's were changed on FL-9's when move to Penn was made from GCT.
Third.
The FL-9 was biggest farce EMD ever built, it never worked on third rail for more that 5 days. and other than optical show to leave shoes and beams on the units never worked in electric till CDOT's FL-9m's came on property, they worked great but were quikly disabled due to MofE being scared they would burn.
Fourth.
The GE's do work in electric and with first units accepted in 1996 they are now the undisputed king of dual mode's.
no they will not last as long as the FL-9's but for my sake I hope they get shitcanned in 10 so we can move to newer technologie (EPA, etc)one 40 year technologie shock in one's job history is enough.
fifth.
yes on inbound moves MNCW does leave diesel in low idle. so if train gaps its only 1 minutes to get it going on diesel vs. 3 if diesel was shut down. the diesel is usualy shut down when cab car goes by the north end acces stairways.
On outbound moves the diesel is started at mouth of tunnel but since it has to get up to operating temp, max oil pressure and 800 rpm first, it is not put on line till after 125 th street.
sixth.
Third rail power can only be trainlined on permanent coupled cars (mu married pairs or triplets)) not on Push-pull cars.
this is to avoid barbecueing the electricians, when pulling a 600 volt bus jumper the entire train has to be off third rail.
the electrician could never know which shoe is allive and feeding the train.
seventh.
The new NJT cars DO have low level door. its the last door on end of cab car in picture. the coaches will have two doors aqt each end of the car.
the Bi-levels will be run system wide and are not restricted to NEC. over 200 are ordered with option of 176 more.yes they can be run with comet 1 > 5.
eight.
The law about diesels running in tunnels only applies to GCT and Park avenue, Amtrak on its own has banned Diesels in Hudson tunnels and Penn station and East river tunnels.
Question:
What is so different about NYP's tunnels to PHL's? PHL's Penn Sta allows diesels to run in and out.
I noticed the latest inland route train #147 does not have enough time at NHV for an engine change, only 9 mins layover is alloted.
AEM7
What is so different about NYP's tunnels to PHL's? PHL's Penn Sta allows diesels to run in and out.
PHL isn't in a tunnel. The tracks are on the ground and the station is built above. The streets around 30th Street Station are on stilts, like Chicago, so going downstairs to get to the trains makes it seem as though the tracks are underground.
Photo of north-end exit from 30th Street Station
What is so different about NYP's tunnels to PHL's? PHL's Penn Sta allows diesels to run in and out.
PHL isn't in a tunnel. The tracks are on the ground and the station is built above. The streets around 30th Street Station are on stilts, like Chicago, so going downstairs to get to the trains makes it seem as though the tracks are underground.
Photo of north-end exit from 30th Street Station
Thank you for an interesting post. One question:
"Third rail power can only be trainlined on permanent coupled cars (mu married pairs or triplets)) not on Push-pull cars.
this is to avoid barbecueing the electricians, when pulling a 600 volt bus jumper the entire train has to be off third rail.
the electrician could never know which shoe is alive and feeding the train. "
I'm trying to picture this. A push-pull train comes in, and if, hypothetically, it were third rail-powered, you're saying the guys disassembling the consist are likely to step on a power shoe during their work and fry themselves? Or they'll need to use a jumper cable in areas of third rail gaps and it isn't safe because the point of contact will already be energized and dangerous (if so, why do you need the cable?)
Thank you again.
> the electrician could never know which shoe is alive and feeding the train
Why would push-pull cars have third rail shoes on them? They wouldn't have any motors. Power for lights and a/c would come from the loco (HEP). So the electrician would only need to check the loco.
He is referring to the LIRR DM problem w/ gapping out. One suggestion was to put a 3rd rail shoe on the cab cars and then have a 750V trainline. The problem is that isolating the trainline would prove to be a complex operation and that a maintainer un- or re-coupling cars might easily get zapped.
That's why cutout switches were invented back in the 1800's. Though they are only to be operated in no load conditions.
we were talking hypotetical to power single engine on push-pull consist in third rail mode.
ok lets say the locomotive is off third rail but if cars did have third rail shoes they are on the third rail.
a electrician pulling the jumpers would be subject to full blast only a foot away from him. imagine a 1300 amp welding arc at 600 volt without a mask.
I'm getting the drift now...it's close proximity to a potential arc. Not good for your health.
A trolley running trainline is not unheard of. Early NYCT equipment had just such an arrangement. 600 volts on any contact shoe of the train meant every contact shoe of the train was hot. That arrangement saw its last around the same time as the advent of the low voltage controller.
LIRRs big mistake was the size of the DE30 locos. The spacing of the contact shoes is too short to span some of the gaps in areas like the JO interlocking. By contrast, AMTRAKS locos that rely on 3rd rail power have a greater span between contact shoes so one loco will not gap (rear truck actually has 2 contact shoes per side).
A trolley running trainline is not unheard of. Early NYCT equipment had just such an arrangement. 600 volts on any contact shoe of the train meant every contact shoe of the train was hot. That arrangement saw its last around the same time as the advent of the low voltage controller.
LIRRs big mistake was the size of the DE30 locos. The spacing of the contact shoes is too short to span some of the gaps in areas like the JO interlocking. By contrast, AMTRAKS locos that rely on 3rd rail power have a greater span between contact shoes so one loco will not gap. (The rear truck actually has 2 contact shoes per side.)
there is no current design for shoes that work of over and under running third rail.
Well there is the old FL-9 design for dual position shoes.
The FL-9 was biggest farce EMD ever built, it never worked on third rail for more that 5 days. and other than optical show to leave shoes and beams on the units never worked in electric till CDOT's FL-9m's came on property, they worked great but were quikly disabled due to MofE being scared they would burn.
Well I've never heard that and its never been mentioned in any of my books. Time and time again I have sen the FL-9 listed as a milestone in locomotive design, not a farce. Do you have a source on this or is it just anecdotal?
yes on inbound moves MNCW does leave diesel in low idle. so if train gaps its only 1 minutes to get it going on diesel vs. 3 if diesel was shut down. the diesel is usualy shut down when cab car goes by the north end acces stairways.
On outbound moves the diesel is started at mouth of tunnel but since it has to get up to operating temp, max oil pressure and 800 rpm first, it is not put on line till after 125 th street.
Do you know why MNRR dosen't run its DM's in electric as far as possible? In theory they could boost the HP on the traction motors and have a 4000-6000hp unit on the juice and then 3200hp on the oil.
3rd rail electrification combined with straight DC locomotives built from an old diesel unit is the cheapest of all electrification alternatives.
The law about diesels running in tunnels only applies to GCT and Park avenue, Amtrak on its own has banned Diesels in Hudson tunnels and Penn station and East river tunnels.
My source states that the 1902 NY State law banned all exhaust producing locomotives south of the Harlem River starting in 1908.
Well I've never heard that and its never been mentioned in any of my books. Time and time again I have sen the FL-9 listed as a milestone in locomotive design, not a farce. Do you have a source on this or is it just anecdotal?
"Milestone"??? Please. It's widely regarded everywhere that those units were total failures. EMD had no clue how to design a straight electric, and no clue how to merge it with a diesel.
Further, the use of diesels under the wire by the New Haven was widely (and correctly) criticized in the day, and even today is regarded a idiodic virtually everywhere outside the US.
About all the FL-9 did was graft a lousy straight electric design onto a diesel design that was marginal even when it was new, and long obsolete today. The added weight lead to a bizzare wheel arrangement, and they never worked right anyway. I've never heard anyone claim they work. Even years ago, they were regarded as lousey...
As for the GE's, they have more HP, but GE's approach to meeting EPA slows them out of stations (yes, I know this is a controversial sore point with some). Two lighter, faster spooling turbos would have allowed them to load faster.
The DM-30's are nice when they actually work, but are too heavy and falling apart. They can run full time in electric mode, and I see them doing that as far as Mineola (and probbably to the limits of electric territory - this was how the LIRR ran them until the two write offs the other year, now they don't always. I hear they absolutely suck in the tunnels in diesel mode, though)
Further, the use of diesels under the wire by the New Haven was widely (and correctly) criticized in the day, and even today is regarded a idiodic virtually everywhere outside the US.
Well the whole purpose for the FL-9's was so that the NH could de-electrify the New Haven line to cut costs which was clearly a contaversial issue at the time. If you look at the New Haven system the use of DM locomotives makes perfect sence. You have a lot of lightly used, long branch lines that need to feed into an electric only terminal. Option one it to use a bunch of shittle trains providing two seat rides or to use DM's to provide one-seat rides.
Option one it to use a bunch of shittle trains providing two seat rides or to use DM's to provide one-seat rides.
What are shittle trains? I've never heard that term used before.
Shitty + Shuttle = Shittle
Shuttle trains are usually pretty shitty. Try riding the Amtrak Springfield Line on a non-through train...you'll see what I mean.
Springfield? The old Union Pacific doesn't come by there anymore.
I know, but the NYNH&H still does.
How about the current diesels and turbos AMTRAK is running up the west side line to Spuyten Duyvil before it joins the metro north main?
The Amtrak P32ACDM's are running with shoes in up position on Metro North. they lower the shoes south of DV drawbridge for use in Pennstation.
when barge of redbirds hit bridge a few months back all Amtrak trains ran into GCT in Diesel and sat shut down, with no power to coaches till departure time when diesel was fired up.
Mike I am glad your books are great source, but I operate the units on daily basis and am a proponent of not killing thousands of commuters due to Diesel Exhaust exposure, a know source of cancer causing materials.
unfortunatly Mr Joseph brennan had a site with the law posted but its no longer there. and the law is totaly unenforcable.
one reason the P32ACDM is not run north of MO in Electric is it was never designed to be a full time electric, and since the unit has no dynamic brake in electric mode , only airbrake (inverter used for other stuff in electric) it is restricted to 60 mph max per FRA rules.
Metro North's speeds in Bronx are higher than 60 on Harlem line.
I do not know if the law was ever sucessfully applied to Diesel locomotives. When the law was passed diesel locomotives were some 30 years in the future and its always been a bit of a gray area. However, as time went on, the non-use of diesels in poorly-ventilated tunnels was more of a common sence issue rather than statute. And don't forget that the main point of the law was for engineer visibility of signals, not passenger safety.
Anyway, the only point I was trying to make is that if a single engined DM train gaps out, it is not the end of the world if the diesel is just revved up to move it 30 feet. Another alternative would be to use batteries, as in the old NYC tri-power fleet.
designed to be a full time electric, and since the unit has no dynamic brake in electric mode , only airbrake (inverter used for other stuff in electric) it is restricted to 60 mph max per FRA rules.
Hmm, never heard of that rule before and I'm not sure of its correctness. If I am not mistaken, there exist some old MU's out there (either Silverliner II's in Philly or ACMU's in NYC) that lack dynamic braking and they can go over 60 mph.
Shame they never designed the P32's to be a full time electric. They could have been so much more useful that way while south of Crotan,
That law that you are referring to was passed during the time when steam locomotives were the dominant means of railroad motive power - the smoking from the stacks, the sparks and the cinders that were produced were the main reasons for the ban. Diesel locomotives were not in existence yet back then, but if they were, the ban would have been moot.
"Metro North's speeds in Bronx are higher than 60 on Harlem line."
Maybe the speed limit is over 60, but typical speed is 60 max. There is a stretch parallel to the Bronx River Parkway, and the cars and the train are usually going at comparable speeds.
There is a stretch parallel to the Bronx River Parkway, and the cars and the train are usually going at comparable speeds.
Oh? So they are running at 75mph!
: ) Elias
EXACTLY! If you have ever driven on the Bronx River Parkway, you know that <60 uses the right lane, 60-85 use the middle, and 85+ uses the left lane.
The speed limit here is 70, they give you 10 grace, I drive at about 74, and am seldom if ever passes, though I do pass others. Our roads are straight and smooth, and could easily support faster, but it seems as if no one has the urge or need to do so, after all, there is nobody in front of you to pass anyway.
I did drive to Bismarck (75 miles) at 98 mph one night. Nobody passed me not even a cop, who would have pulled over to the side to let me by in any event.
Elias
I don't know but when I do 80 with my train cars still pass me. when I go 90 at Mamaroneck and Larchmond even at 90 cars will pass the train.
are trains to slow ??? no but the police is.
I meant that in the Bronx the train tends to run roughly even with the vast majority of cars. An occasional car will zoom past everyone else, of course.
Was that you driving the last train I blew past on I-95 on my bike in Larchmont? Harley with flames on it. Yes, it's got a lot more left in it, too.
I wouldn't call the cops there slow, though. Very friendly actually (no, I wasn't busted for speeding there, was an out of date sticker the year the DMV TOLD me to save my new one cause my empire plates were comming)
You want to see fast cops, try the Mass Pike some day. They blow past you like you're standing still even when you're doing 80...
You mean they are even faster than the ones working for the Texas Department of Public Safety?
As I said, the speed limit in North Dakota is 70, and all police cruisers run at 65 mph. Confuses the hell out of motorists.
Elias
Thanks for that dose of reality, I guess I got a bit carried away with my thinking. Now that you make it so clear, I can see your point on the trainline bus for third rail, really the only way to do it would be to either restrict the coupling and uncoupling of cars to the nonelectrified sections, or have a cut out switch as Phil said, either way it would really take away from the flexibity of the trainset, and probably wouldn't work.
I'm still working on an over-under third rail shoe, gonna be kinda hard cause I'm stuck in philly till march, at least I'll have the MFL (under) and Patco (over) to compare.
Of course you could just string 25kvac constant tension Catenary, trade the M7s for Silverliner Vs and forget gapping, over or under and arcing (although I've seen some huge 11.5kv arcs on Arrows). That would be nice, run wire up the Empire corridor, all the way to Cow County (selkirk-land), AEM7s pulling Amfleet IIIs up the hudson under the wire passing MN ALP46s. Run a connector between GCT and Penn, and the AEM7s go right through GCT. Crap I'm drooling again, sorry lost it for a second, dreaming.
Thanks again.
Say, you wouldn't happen to know Jaap, would you? Real nice guy so far as I know, I mostly see him on the Railroad.net boards.
yeah I know him :-) ps for that 25Kv overhead we have to raise the roof in park avenue tunnel by about 3 feet or more. think you can convince the Park Avenue residence to open up the tunnel like it was in late 1800's, I hear there is a few Nimby's in that group but what hell we can dream right.
Well, if you can't go up....can you go down? (Ewwwww)
Actually, I could concieveably see, and man it'd be a mess, a total rebuild of those tunnels, since they're acient anyway. Then again, they don't really seem to be in bad shape at all. in any case, if they ever had to, a rebuild to allow pantograph clearances wouldn't be a bad idea, but then you'd have the trainshed at GCT to contend with. Of course, a rebuild of *that* wouldn't be a bad idea either, so if you had a few billion to toss into that segment as an upgrade, you could always plan for it. Actually, if they ever DO redo all that, they probbably should, since catenary-only operation would add a good amount of 'punch' to the sluggish NH line stuff (remove flakey DC, cut lots of weight) , allow Amtrak to run in in emergencies on the NEC, and allow for an eventual longer distance electrification (I'm thinking GCT -Albany here, long term, like 20 years from now) on the much more economic 25kv system (but maybe 12kv in GCT?)
The trouble being, like everything else, this would cost a lot of money. Like a lot of other things, the 'last mile' is the problem here :(
If an M2, M4, M6 can be equipped for catenary, why not an M-7? Recall that Metro-North's New Haven MUs share the same basic design as the LIRR's cars.
The M7 has only one propulsion system. the M2/M4/M5 has basicly two.
A camgroup with resistors for DC operation and Ignitron type controll on AC.
for M7 to work on AC overhead it not only needs a PantoGraph but also transformers etc.
Actually, I believe the ignitrons were exchanged for SCRs as part of a GE upgrade to the propulsion system. The M-2s most certainly were delivered with ignitrons - the book says so (GE orange boo, i've got running maintenance, need operator's). Ignitron to SCR upgrades are quite easy, and common in industry.
For the M-7 to be 'upgraded' to an AC/DC unit (heh ;) they would need a transformer, pan, and changeover stuff. The inverters, etc, could be fed off AC, if everyone did their homework. But you'd have a unit with a weight that would be so high per car (I'm guesstimating on the order of 145,000 to 150,000 if we use a Silverliner transformer as a benchmark) that you'd have serious performance problems in DC mode, as you'd quickly approach the limits of third rail. In AC mode, you'd have lousey performance too. The only real option is to simply cut weight, as the M-7's are already too heavy at 125,000 lbs a unit.
Thank you for that analysis.
Only possible problem with 25kv in the Park Avenue tunnel is arcing to car roofs due to the close clearences. When Amtrak was considering converting the NE Corridor to commerical frequency (60hz) at 25KV, the engineers doing the planning were going to use 12.5kv in the Hudson and Baltimore tunnels for the arcing reason.
Well after boarding my R42 L train and taking it to Bway Jct, I went downstairs to wait for the C train. A set of R38s came in, and guess who was the C/R? BMT Road Dogg! I must say that his aanoucements were on point and very clear. We chatted about our respective divisions, the latest B divsion coup among other things. I finally got off at 23St to meet with fellow cowrkers to celebrate two years in the "game". I definitely say that Road Dogg took some pointers from when he rode with a couple of months ago. Just kidding, I respect his game and he is truly a transit professional.
Well, that makes it five SubTalkers that you've run into so far in the past couple of weeks alone...David J. Greenger, BMDoobieW (now Railfan Window), RIPTA42HopeTunnel, BMT Road Dogg and BMTman (yours truly :). With the exception of BMT Road Dogg, the rest of us are civilians.
I think you're going for some kind of record here...:)
Technically, it was SIX you've run into so far, since you saw Jeremy as your train was departing GAP...
BTW, that should be David J. Greenberger (not Greenger).
Doug, when am I gonna see you? Or is the just the IRT your thing?
My line already has the railfan windows, so maybe I should paint my R32 and R38 C trains red. LOL
Nah...I used to ride the A train all the time...only needed YOUR C train if I was gonna grab a trip on the Frankie...LOL!
Thank you for the compliment, my friend. :)
But, hey! You forgot to mention that the whole time you were on my train, not a single A train passed us! Who says the C is slow? Not my interval!
I'll be looking for you to do a complete run with me soon. And I'll be back to ride your train to pick up some more pointers from the original "Transit Professional." But will it be the 3 again, or will I meet you on the 1 or 2? One never knows, does one?
Road Dogg come on over to the East side sometime.
I haven't forgotten about you, Dave. I've never seen the City Hall loop on the 6, so when I have time, I'll meet you up around 125th Street and run with you downtown, through the loop, and back to 125th.
Should be quite the experience! :)
Thank you for the compliment, my friend. :)
But, hey! You forgot to mention that the whole time you were on my train, not a single A train passed us! Who says the C is slow? Not my interval!
I'll be looking for you to do a complete run with me soon. And I'll be back to ride your train to pick up some more pointers from the original "Transit Professional." But will it be the 3 again, or will I meet you on the 1 or 2? One never knows, does one?
Dont forget you saw the Specialist,and he taught you everything you know LOL HAAHHAA
Here's one for you guys........
This line has no PASSENGER stations
Is not fully electrified,
Carries many trains daily.
Any ideas?
This is a NJT line! It gonna be a tough one, but lets see who can get it, or at least come close.
A freight line, right, perhaps on the Erie-Lackawanna Railroad?
Well NJT ownes several lines w/o passenger stations on them including the Southern Secondary, the Harrison Industrial track and the Bayonne Industrial Track, althought the latter now hosts the HLBR.
How about between Tuckahoe and Cape May Court House?
How about the Lehigh Valley from Aldene Junction to Newark?
No, cancel that. I forgot about the Roselle Park station.
This line has no PASSENGER stations
Is not fully electrified,
Carries many trains daily.
Any ideas?
This is a NJT line! It gonna be a tough one, but lets see who can get it, or at least come close
Pete: Its the HUDSON LINE extending a whoe 8/10 of a mile.
Mile
0.0 MMC (Meadowlands Maintenance Complex)
0.3 CAPE (Interlocking)
0.8 HUDSON (Interlocking, Amtrak)
Larry, RedbirdR33
You lost me here for a minute. Is that the route that crosses a swing bridge across the Passaic River just next to MMC, right by the Waterfront Connector and Midtown Direct Junction?
What about the abandoned Boonton portion of the line between the Montclair Connection and Hoboken. It's carrying freight trains, correct?
According to my NYC area ownership map, that segment of the line was never owned by NJT, it was owned by CR and then passed to NS.
The question has been answered.
Railfan Pete? Is that the answer?
Bingo.
The answer is the "Hudson Line". The Hudson line is approximately 1 mile long, meets up with the NEC at Hudson tower, and meets up with the M and E at Cape Int. It is used for Waterfront connection service (Hoboken-Bay Head) but it is mainly used as a lead to the MMC for NJT Newark Divison trains.
I knew that! But I just read the post.
These probably won't be popular suggestions, but they need to be made
Weekday service
1. 22:48 and 23:00 runs from New Lots will go to 148 St instead of terminating at 96 St and running lite to E 180 St (23:00 becomes 23:02 from New Lots)(by this time all #3 10 car trains should be in the Bronx anyway)
2. Eliminate the Shuttle Bus Service (except in G.O.s)
3. 23:12 and 23:24 runs from New Lots(to 96 St) cut, #4 service should be running there by this point if not, then changes will be made
4. Eliminate 22:27, 22:39, 22:51, and 23:03 runs from 148 St to New Lots
Last train to New Lots from 148 St will be at 22:15
5. Increase headways to 10-12 minutes during middays and weekends (#2 service would be increased to make up for this). Headways will decrease to 4-7 minutes (from 5-7) during the rush hour mainly between Chambers St and 135 St
6. Lenox #3 Shuttle S/B will begin at 22:26 and end at 05:00 and N/B will begin at 00:07 and end at 06:27 (10 minutes before the first NLTS train gets to 135 St)
7. Some rush hour trains will end/begin to South Ferry (schedule will only show up to Chambers St) and loop around (like #5 to Bowling Green) to provide shorter headways for the West Side (so #5 service at Flatbush won't have to be tampered with)
8. Since #2 service needs improvements, alternating #3 trains will go to E 238 St for about 1 hour (to Manhattan AM, from Manhattan PM), plus these trains will run Bronx local, allowing #2 service to run express in the Bronx along with #5 service for 45 minutes to 65 minutes. Or #2's can stay as locals and all #3 trains can run express in the Bronx (which ever one works better, since 7th Avenue riders deserve one seat express service as well)
I'm sure Lenox(and New Lots?) can be treated like Dyre with such low ridership in comparison to #2 service.
9. Some trains will run lite to South Ferry (from a yard) during the PM rush and run up to any one of the two terminals (in service)
10. If at all possible, build peak express <3> (or <2>) north of 96 St skipping all stops until 135 St (making the ride faster), the money saved from weekend (money saving) G.O.s making #3 service a shuttle (or running the buses in SOME cases) should be enough
Weekends
11. If possible, extended "Shuttle Train Service" on weekend mornings and nights, less thru service (like #5 weekend service) The Lenox Shuttle(or the "148 Street Shuttle" or even the Harlem Shuttle) will become more "famous" like the "Dyre Avenue Shuttle"
More on this later
Dang. I didn't even understand some points in the
FIRST half... to think there's a SECOND feed coming...
"I'm sure Lenox(and New Lots?) can be treated like Dyre with such low ridership in comparison to #2 service."
Remmeber that Lenox isn't an end in itself as much as a way to short turn trains. The #2 line above 96th doesn't need anywhere near the capacity the express needs below 96th. Lenox is a way to turn almost half those trains without sending them to 241st. Same purpose Bowling Green and Utica serve on the Lex.
I haven't found, anywhere on this site, information relating to the use of steam engines on the 3rd Avenue El or other El's early in the twentieth century before electrification. I'd like to learn more about this early propulsion sustem in rapid transit.
Jim Fish
They were known as "Forney engines" and the last two of them are rotting away in Alaska, in UNpreservable condition. If you'd like to check out more, google "forney engines nyc" or click the link below that will give you MUCH to ponder ... they were serious stuff ... library of Congress has footage of them as an MPEG video!
http://www.google.com/search?q=forney+engines+nyc&hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1
LOC MPEG here - HUGE file ... http://lcweb2.loc.gov/mbrs/lcmp002/m2b19440.mpg
QUICKTIME FORMAT:
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/mbrs/lcmp002/m2b19440.mov
But yeah, it's real ...
Try the book "The New York Elevated", which was mentioned on this site a day or so ago. It has quite a bit of background and photos about the pre-electric rapid transit era.
I have one old photo of a steam train on one of the els. Anyone have any info about this photo - where it may be, what line, timeframe, etc? It's a cool old photo. The photo I have must be a reprint of a much older photo because the paper doesn't seem older than the 50's, but obviously the photo is much older than that.
I have a question:
If elevated lines were too weak to carry heavy steel subway cars, how did they get away with supporting whole steam LOCOS?
Because the small Forney locos were quite lightweight. According to Steam Locomotive Info, the little Forneys of the New York Elevated weighed 45,400 lbs., with a weight on drivers of 29,400 lbs. (Chicago's Lake Street Elevated loco #8, preserved at the National Museum of Transport in St. Louis, weighs 60,000 lbs., with a weight on drivers of 38,000 lbs.). All of these locomotives are of the 0-4-4T classification.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do you think it would be pratical to run the Washington Metro 24/7?
Would there be logistical issues?
How about cost and safety issues, would it prevent such an idea from going forward?
I am a New Yorker, but familiar enough with the DC area from years of travelling there on a regular basis. The biggest issues would be in the safety and r.o.w. maintenance areas. No only customer safety, but the safety of r.o.w. workers performing track, signal, and communiations maintenance between trains running say, once every 30 minutes instead of not at all. There would also be additional labor costs to man the trains and stations.
The issue is demand. If the communities that support Metro want 24 hour service, Metro will have to provide it. Here in New York, that is not an issue. The NYC Transit subways and PATH run 24/7, and the major commuter rails generally run between 20 and 24 hours daily, depending on the line.
I'd agree that the biggest issue is demand. Cost is second biggest. Politics (suburban vs. urban) is a distant fourth, with the politics of labor relations (with the employee union) being a distant third.
There are plenty of metros that aren't 24/7. Even in NYC not all lines run at all times, or at least not all stations. Paris' Metro shuts down at about 1:30 (which I discovered just before an unplanned 3 mile walk back to my hotel after an evening of adventures).
Chicago has two 24/7 lines (Red, Blue), one that has only a 2 hour downtime nightly (Brown), two that shutdown around 1am to reopen around 6am - give or take an hour (Orange, Green, Purple), and one that only runs weekdays from 5am - 10pm (Yellow).
Paris' Metro shuts down at about 1:30 (which I discovered just before an unplanned 3 mile walk back to my hotel after an evening of adventures).
Hehe. Some parts of Paris are very walkable at that sort of time... the Rue St Dénis springs to mind... I recall one night when I walked the length of it having finished my adventures at Réaumur-Sebastopol and needing to get back to my hotel near the Odéon metro station. I had a very nice expensive ice cream in a café in the place St André des Arts too. Having said that, it wasn't quite 1:30 - I could have got a 4 train if I'd wanted, but I don't really like that line and rather needed the walk.
London OTOH really could do with 24 hour service on the Underground. There was a story a few weeks back about a clerk being paid £75 ($115) expenses for his taxi fare back home from Bow St Magistrates' Court because the Underground and Suburban sevices had stopped running for the night (IIRC he lived somewhere in South London Surrey). Plus it's not only people doing real jobs out at night in London - there's something called nightlife too! To be fair to LT, the night buses are good, but they don't half screw people in South London Surrey and North-West London Middlesex.
All but three NYC stations are full-time. Broad Street (J/M/Z) is closed on weekends, but the IRT Wall Street stations are a block east and west. 145th Street (3) and 148th Street-Lenox Terminal (3) are replaced by a shuttle bus at night. Every other station is open around the clock and has scheduled service every 20 minutes at worst. Not all lines run at night, so it can be a pain to make some trips, but at least it's possible.
From what I understand of the way Washington works, there's not enough nightlife or work demand to justify it. By and large Washington is a place you arrive at in the morning for work, then leave at night. While there is some reverse communiting going on (less affluent city folk going to suburbs to clean houses and diaper children, or commuting to places like Rockville), there's notenough going on overnight to justify service.
New York has always been a 24 hour a day city. When cable cars were introduced in large cities such as New York and Chicago in the 1880s after their initial success in San Francisco, they had a problem. The cable car systems required several hours of downtime each night for cable inspection/maintenance.
New York's unique solution -- a dual cable system which allowed one cable at a time to be shut down for maintenance while the cars kept operating.
It's much easier to maintain a system which doesn't need to be running 24x7, but one can always find creative ways to do so if the demand is there.
-- Ed Sachs
"It's much easier to maintain a system which doesn't need to be running 24x7, but one can always find creative ways to do so if the demand is there."
I personally think the issue of maintenance is a false one. NYCT is perfectly willing to impose GOs that shut down a line all night or all weekend. The difference is that they only do so when maintenance is needed, not every night or every weekend.
The real issue re 24 hour service is cost; simply more personnel are needed in trains, towers, and stations.
>>The real issue re 24 hour service is cost<<
IMHO the real issue is political. By and large, the "newer" systems, BART, METRO, MARTA, are suburban focused--the management includes NOONE who would be out after midnight and the "maintenance" window is just smoke. As it is, if the system is actually "quiet" by 1:30 and starts staging for rush by 5, thre is a very short window. This is precisely why some GO's happen eves and wknds on BART. In turn, during the 'off time' the "entire" system is not swarming with repair crews.
>>The real issue re 24 hour service is cost<<
IMHO the real issue is political. By and large, the "newer" systems, BART, METRO, MARTA, are suburban focused--the management includes NOONE who would be out after midnight and the "maintenance" window is just smoke. As it is, if the system is actually "quiet" by 1:30 and starts staging for rush by 5, thre is a very short window. This is precisely why some GO's happen eves and wknds on BART. In turn, during the 'off time' the "entire" system is not swarming with repair crews.
It wouldn't surprise me to see it go 24/7 someday. As stated in other threads, I too agree that the safety of track workers is a minor issue, trains can be single-tracked in work zones. I just don't see the demand being there unless it is a special event, i.e. New Years Eve, July 4th, etc. where you find masses of tourists and locals using the system late into the evening. It's only been within the last few years that service was extended to 2 am.
24/7 service is not possible for the same reason it isn't possible in London. No trackwork could be performed. The system needs to be closed for the maintenance of trains, tracks, and stations. If the need existed, a bus system like that in Philly could probably be established.
NOT!!!
The L route in NY is two track, yet necessary trackwork gets done without shutting down the entire route. There is NO OBJECTIVE impediment to 24/7 service on the DC Metro, or BART for that matter. The ONLY excuse is cost/ridership. In a 100 route mile system, how many miles of trackway are being repaired any given night? Certainly not both tracks on every route. Car repair is totally independent of service hours. The unwillingness of the newer suburban oriented systems to accomodate late night or Saturday morning workers (Metro opens @ 8 AM!!) users is entirely political IMHO.
The obstacle to 24 hour service in these location is that for the most part, there isn't demand for such service.
The demand IS there--it is just ignored. See
>>http://www.transcoalition.org/nightbart/<<
Time and again the calculus for many of us is--will _______ play so late we can't get home on BART? Then it is "parking in SF--what a drag!" Or "Sure I'd use BART if I could get back, but ..."
The L is one line. If the entire NYC subway were 2 track, it would be irrelevant. The MTA can't say "the L train has 2 tracks so we are closing it every night". On WMATA, the entire system is 2 tracks, so they have a valid claim. Car maintenance is done overnight for the most part because of the large number of cars needed during rush hours. Car maintenance is not independent of service hours, the fewer hours the system runs, the more time that trains will be in the yard. Finally, what are you going to be doing before 8 AM on a weekend morning? Where do you need to go at that hour? I have taken the first train once and it was fairly crowded, but 60-90 minutes later, things are rather empty.
The MTA can't say "the L train has 2 tracks so we are closing it every night".
Yes it can. Just like it says "no-one uses Broad St, so we are closing it every weekend".
>> Finally, what are you going to be doing before 8 AM on a
weekend morning? Where do you need to go at that hour? <<
Well to be explicit, I had arrived at Union Station on the "Twilight Shoreliner" @ 6:30 AM and I wanted to get to my mother's home in the Aspen Hill neighborhood. As I was waiting for Metro to open many workers were arriving for their shifts in the various concessions at Union Station. Nice of Metro not to serve them.
But you have typified exactly the attitude I am so p$&(#% at. As an adult who has at times worked shifts ending after 2AM, enjoyed music events which have gone quite late --sometimes until nearly dawn, I have perfectly legitimate reasons to be out late/early. BTW my first 2:30-3 AM adventure at age 16 was coming home from an NMRA Annual Convention Banquet which ran late into the evening as attendees were expected to be staying at the convention hotel. I however had to get back to my grandfather's house on the South Side which involved CTA Owl service L and buses.
We can't please everyone, DC isn't too much of an active place at night, although it is starting to have more nightlife. MANY things around here revolve around the Metro so it isn't a problem. As for the people arriving at 6:30 AM to get to work on the weekend, I understand their need for public transit, but the number of people traveling then is not great enough to warrant service. Better they be closed at 7 AM on Saturday than at 5:30 AM on a weekday.
I rode the 1 train this Sunday morning at 8:45. Most of the passengers in my car were standing.
I've had to stand before 8 on other Sundays.
And I was on a very crowded (not quite rush hour style, but close) 2 train a few weeks ago at 2 on a Sunday morning (late Saturday night).
We are talking DC here, not NYC. They are completely different ballparks. DC revolves around the federal government. Government closed, most of DC is closed. The government isn't open at 2 AM on Sunday or 8 AM on Saturday, and as a result, the Metro isn't either, since the bulk of Metro ridership is federal workers.
I was responding to this question of yours:
"Finally, what are you going to be doing before 8 AM on a weekend morning? Where do you need to go at that hour?"
Apparently a lot of people find places to go on weekend mornings. I didn't poll everyone in my car, but I did meet an Australian family on summer vacation on their way to the Statue of Liberty.
The big reason all-night service is important here is not that many people use it (though on some lines many people do use it) -- it's that it's always available just in case. If I stay out a bit later than I had planned, I can still get home. Without that assurance, a lot of people would buy cars and move out of the city.
The DC tourist attractions are not open in time for you to want to be downtown at 8. DC doesn't work the way New York does. The Metro serves the majority of the people who need it when the majority have places to go. Late nights except Fridays and Saturdays are not a time at which much service is needed, so there are no trains. I think buses could suffice during those hours anyway if the demand arose.
I have a question about Union Station (DC)- why is it low platform. Doesn't the volume warrant high platforms or do the Acela Expresses and some trains(MARC, VRE ?) use some high platforms I have not seen? Are there plans for high platforms. To me, it begs for high platforms.
Many of the platforms are high, although not all. I haven't been on a train that departed from or arrived at a low-level platform in quite a while, although I know that they are still used.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It isn't. About 2/3rds of the tracks have high platforms and the rest are low platforms. This is for the Superliners on what I call the upper level (track 16 I think is for them) and also on the lower level. The Acela Express and Metroliners use tracks 18, 19, and 20 usually, which are all high level. MARC platforms are high level, they tend to use platforms 9 to 13 or so in general. There doesn't appear to be anything lower than 9 but IDK why. VRE has to stop on the "lower level" as do all Amtrak trains going south of DC, since those are the only tracks to Virginia.
Thanks.your explanation was great. ALl 4 times I have been on trains goign past Washington. (Rode Carolinian, An Acela Regional and a round trip on the Crescent.)
I ask this follow up- any plans on making high platforms for the tracks going to Virginia and the rest fo the low platforms, espceially with the ADA and I'd think Washignton would be a key station. (I am not disabled but low platofrem,s are slow to unload, especially with luggage.
Does anyone have a track map for Union Station DC? I am a law abiding transit worker.
That would explain why you never saw any high level platforms. I do not know of any plans to raise up the platforms, but I don't really see much of a need. The low platform is a pain for unloading and I have traveled in parties with people with disabilities, but we managed. I do not know of any track maps existing.
as to maps and track #'s I recently saw a diagram in a railfan mag--not quite old enough to be PD. The lowest no. tracks were removed to accomodate Metro, I believe.
It started out all low platform as did Baltimore Penn and basicly everything south of Philly and west of NYC. Wilmington, Baltimore and part of Union Sta were raised for Meroliner Service in the late 60's. More have been raised, but the assignment of Superliners to the Capitol Ltd. and the Cardinal require some low platforms both main and tunnel level. (Good reason not to use Superliners on those trains IMHO.)
Far worse in my view is the poor access to/from the tunnel tracks. Walking past the power may be interesting for me but the average passenger would be happier with a shorter walk to the coaches.
... Superliners [on] the Capitol Ltd. and the Cardinal require some low platforms ... good reason not to use Superliners on those trains ...
I've not ridden the Capitol Ltd. but I have ridden the Cardinal as far as Staunton, Virginia and the view from the Superliner is spectacular. Now that they've banned smoking on that train you can enjoy the viewing car (which was formerly the smoking car) and the climb through the Shenandoahs is really something to see. So I'll gladly deal with a low platform in exchange for the view.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In fact the Capitol from DC to Pittsvurgh is my all time favorite route, BUT the view from a superliner car compared to a genuine DOME car is lke losing the railfan window. My first solo train trip on the Columbian--an all coach train later folded into the Capitol--I spent the night up in the dome falling asleep watching the block signals change. I have enjoyed the various Cardinal routes several times in ATK's early years again from the dome. I may be a lone voice, and I recognize the economics of bilevels from a labor standpoint, but I don't like them. I always wanted more dome cars and more slumbercoaches.
... the view from a superliner car compared to a genuine DOME car is lke losing the railfan window.
Well, I don't know if I'd go QUITE that far, but... my experience with true dome cars has been limited to Canada, most spectacularly on the Canadian from Vancouver to Toronto in 1975 (the old route over the Rockies) and several other trips on eastern routes, most recently in the summer of 2000 from Toronto to Montréal. And I agree, they're nicer - you're facing forward instead of angled to one side, and you've got a view out the front of the car.
One of these days I'll ride the Canadian again... they still run domes :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I read in an earlier post of mine on the MTA reverting back to the old grafitti days that the MTA was going to raise subway fares to $2.50. Now, I'm not a new yorker, but please.
The MTA's new slogan is not "going your way", but "fork it over!".
Another one they're considering is "Your money's coming our way."
A pack of cigarettes will set you back MORE than $7.00 ... a subway ride is CHEAP at $5 a blow. Hell the HOOKERS are getting $100 a ... ummm ... brake pipe reduction. :)
with a self-lapping lap dance at that...
Amen and Amen ... as Paturkey has said to many foreign investor corporations that he and Joe Bruno have shaken down only to see them set up shop in Bubbaland (this dog won't hunt) ... "New York is a high cost state" ... and that cost is the campaign fund. Wonder how local 199 is going to make out after turning over their PENSION FUND to the Bruno unit. Boowahahahahaha ...
Sorry for the politics, but I'm sitting here like a giddy little schoolgirl REVELLING in all I've said was going to come to pass about to ... Paturkey fluff show this coming WEDNESDAY, REALITY of the floorshow made public NEXT Wednesday ... for all the qwap I've taken for "being political" what's about to whack ANYONE who owns their own home is going to be nothing short of ... "I told you so, neener neener" ... For all the crap, sure hope folks will be watching the jaw dropping down the state capit-hole to mark THAT midnight. Wowsers ...
NYS ... BIE ... IN The hole, IN the hole ... SPEAK ELEPHANT! Whoo-hoo.
Remember your judas politicians in elephantine dress. For $2.50 the average (read: working stiff) rider who commutes to work is gonna have to cough up:
$10 extra per week
$40 extra per month
$520 (!) extra per year
on transportation to and from work. HOW IS THIS GOOD FOR THE LOCAL ECONOMY? Folks who would have spent these dollars on local businesses will now kick it into Bruno & Co.'s coffers. Also, what service improvements are we getting for our extra $2 a day?
Fuggem ... THAT is the republican way, always has been. BOTH parties steal from the public till, but as we all know from EXPERIENCE, at least the DEMOCRATS spread it around. SCREW the public. As long as Exxon/Mobil, Enron (they're BACK!) and Halliburton get rich, it'll trickle down. Just make sure you buy your subway umbrella before hitting the street, and make sure there's fresh subway batteries so you can hear the announcements on the radio as to the groovy "color of the day" for security. No flashes, please.
But if the fare offends anyone, please come to one of our FINE casinos, located conveniently near a resort of your choice. :\
It obviously that Mikey Bloomberg has just succeeded in his City's Proposed Plan by turning NYC into the 2nd Beverly Hill.
MTA!..GOING THE WRONG WAY!
Bloomie has NOTHING to do with ANY of this ... bash him if you must, but NYC does *NOT* control the suways, hasn't since 1966 or so ... MTA is PATURKEY'S animal (and really Joe Bruno, master of Rent control - you'll see come June) ... Bloomie's a bad mayor, but not for THIS reason.
Shrub, Paturkey, and Bruno - NOT going your way, let's kick Saddam's butt instead while the North Koreans REALLY make nukes ... whoop! Prohibited thought, I've been awake for 31 hours because I cannot go home because the road ain't been plowed here in smallbany ... betcha it'd be different if the LEGISLATURE was in session, but it isn't so screw us, and screw NYC ... as long as the corporate calves are fattened ...
But blaming Bloomie for ANY of this? It's the STATE that determines what NYC gets for nearly 30 years now. And Bruno's determined that YOU PEOPLE get squat ... word ... sorry ...
But let's not forget Mayor Doomberg should be, as he said during the MTA/TWU negotiations las month "speaking for 8 million New Yorkers and their interests". He said that on television, but now his silence is thunderous.
HE shouldn't have bothered, but it takes politicos a while to realize how powerless they really are. I mean, let's get real here - 8 million New Yorkers vs. 160 million STOCKHOLDERS? Nope.
Bloomie can't influence the Paturkey any more than he can get the ROADS plowed upstate. And ain't NOBODY doing THAT ... I'm stuck here on a hilltop, been awake for 34 hours ... I'm going to go crash out on the couch in the atrium because I *KNOW* nobody will hear my screams. But yeah, forgive me, I'm stoned from lack of sleep AGAIN. I really really believed our "weathercritters" from Dallas and Atlanta that it was merely raining here - we've got 22 inches of snow on top of the 48 inches we already had here west of Smallbany. But since the legislature is NOT in session, we can all go to hell too ...
Thanks, Joe Bruno! Thanks, Absentee Goobernor Thanks for making New York what it once was again in all its glory - an arctic region covered with ice. :(
Eventually, Binney Landen and his pal SADDOM will have their a** whooped pretty soon. By then, Miss Hilary and Schumer Paturkey and Bloomberg will have their last laugh. The North Koreans? Forget Them! They can't even harm a fly. As for as Bruno is concerned, well what can I say, the guy is Paturkey's side-kick.
Bin Laden and Saddam have nothing to do with one another, they are certainly not "pals."
And any country that can get NUCULAR (Homer Simpson's words, not mine) weapons, can hurt lots of people.
North Korea is more dangerous, but Harry Truman isn't our current president's father.
That clown in the wHITE hOUSE pronounces it NUCULAR, also. The SCARY thing about it is that unlike Homer, bu$h has his finger on the BUTTON.
Homer once had his finger on the button.
He pulled a Homer Simpson and averted a meltdown.
That's only a proposal, and I doubt that it would be hiked that high, it would be complete bullshit & as for reverting to the graffiti/deferred maintenance days, I don't see that happening but anything is possible. The MTA is NOT going our way and the new slogan could be "going to our pockets is your money" :-\.
Please?! Well IF you WERE a New Yorker, you would feel different about this, believe me. Lets say the fare is hiked to $2.50 and you know how the system is, you will NOT spend $5 for a round trip ride in the current service they provide. Of course, this was just a example. A $2.50 fare won't come for probably at least 10 years but if the MTA is really deep in the hole[which I think they are not] that would be sooner but a possible $2 fare is the best estimate that could be worked with at this moment.
I find a $2 fare right now as fine, both in my eyes {I'm a regular customer} and for the TA to work their budget. And I'm almost definite this will be the fare that comes along next no matter how many proposals of either $1.75, $2.25, or $2.50 come along. $2 was the original prediction, and reading the plans on the MTA website, it looks like they don't need any more, and I'm sure they won't ask for more.
the fare should be 50c .................!!!
With 1/2 fare on weekends!
thankz !! yea !
BTW The back to old graffiti days has become a reality. Just get a good look at R32 3642 and 3643. I saw them last night on an out of service track on Union Tpke and I could not believe my eyes. They were all marked up-badly!
Too bad I did not have my camera handy. I assume that was the reason why the train was OOS. It had R signs on it.
What a mess!
PS About a 2.50 fare-get the heck outta here-NO WAY!
2.00 or forget it-I'll learn how to drive!
#3642 E 8 Ave Queens Blvd Express
I have toying with this idea for three months and have not found any legal reasons why it could not be done.
If the fare goes too high, one could simply create a "commuting club". This club would consist of people who aren't thrilled with the level or quality of service of the main subsidized system and would use a "second system" of new buses and vans to meet their commuting needs instead. It is not legal for non-franchised or non-MTA bus services to run within or between boroughs, but if that service is operated for a private entity, such as a business's employees or some organization, you can run wherever you need to with whatever equipment you like. It would be free to join such a club and could mitigate the effect of a fare increase or service cuts that are deemed too harsh. Obviously, these routes could serve along existing transit routes, but could also serve new markets, like Downtown Brooklyn to Flushing.
Any thoughts?
Several workers from my company have done something similar, commuting together on a chartered small bus from Bergen County. While they've been doing it since 1994, it hasn't always been easy, as it required coordination of schedules. Fortunately, work-schedule coordination is fairly easy where I work given the nature of the company, but at many employers it would be considerably harder.
Except this would be a public pooling service. In other words, get a free membership, ride our system. From what I understand, it's perfectly legal. It is done quite a bit in Bay Ridge and surrounding areas. There is also a bus like that on Ocean Parkway.
This would be on a much larger scale and no prearrangement other than the membership would be required.
I knew someone who ran a private van pool from Manhattan to Holmdel NJ from maybe 1975 to 1985. It took a lot of his time. The driver (if not him) got a free ride but no pay. If the driver had been paid it wouldn't have made economic sense.
>>> This club would consist of people who aren't thrilled with the level or quality of service of the main subsidized system and would use a "second system" of new buses and vans to meet their commuting needs instead. <<<
You are assuming that this "club" could purchase or lease the necessary equipment, maintain the equipment and provide reliable operators of the equipment at a price significantly less than the new fare. Quite a tall order.
Tom
I just dropped off 60 subway calendars at GCT. Bewteen an unexpected slow down by months end and me taking back some unsold copies was enough to farm out those calendars.
The Transit Museum still has a couple of LIRR Sunrise Trail calendars and some NH ones too. The LIRR calendar is a sellout, so if you're looking for one, the gift shop may still have one. Call first.
The Transit Museum closed their gift shop in Times Square.
Any questions regarding the subway calendar, plese use my e-mail above.
Bill "Newkirk"
Geez ... I can't believe you still have any LEFT ... For those who STILL don't own one or MORE of Unca Bill's 2003 WTC Memorial calendar as yet (with every month showing EXQUISITE shots of NYC subways with WTC somewhere in the distance) you've GOTTA get one! I'm truly amazed that this year's true "collectors edition" has any copies left unsold at this point.
BREATHTAKING is an understatement! Unca Selkirk says this one's a "gotta have" ...
To get one for yourself if you can't make the trip to the store ... email Unca Bill here:
mailto:newkirk@optonline.net
Thanks Unca Kev !
Bill "Newkirk"
The third one to appear in the "safety series", along with usual diagonal stripes.
"Hold onto your youth, your dreams, and while you're at it, the handrails"
Got this one at IRT Penn Station (1)(2)(3)(9) MVM #0650. You have been alerted !
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks for the alert. I will try to pick one of those up this week.
---Brian
Hello Subtalk! This thread is designed to get feedback on which Locomotives look the best.
This thread is not limited to just saying which locomotive you think looks best. You may have a discussion on the topic if you choose.
My vote goes to the Genesis. Something about it gives it a majestic appearence.
HAVE FUN :-D!!
My favourite has to be the Iron Duke, with its 7'0¼" gauge. :-D They don't build trains like that any more...
GG1
Bah! Genesis units look like a brick with a broken nose. It is possible for them to be salvaged with certain paint schemes that can mask their sheer uglyness (like the Amtrak Phaze V or VIA Renaissance schemes), but the Amtrak Phaze IV and MNRR paint jobs make them look even nastier.
Best looking locomotive of all time has to be the PRR GG-1. Best looking passenger locomotive currently is the EMD F-59PHI and the best freight locomotive is the SD-70M.
I think that the MNRR paint scheme makes them look pretty good. The Genesis is just so TALL! It's got a modern, timeless look with its crisp lines and such. Even the 1991 Amtrak units look new and good!
Best looking electric: the ACELA! ( Yes, I know it's a Bombardier product)
That's a Trainset, not a locomotive. A locomotive would be an HHP-8.
The GP38-2's of course!!!!!
No actually, although I like the GP38's quite a bit, I'll have to also vote for the Pennsylvania Railroad's GG1's. I've never seen one actually running, but have seen them at the Strasburg RR Museum, and of course in photos. They must've been quite a sight to behold in action.
I'm not a big fan of the Genesis units. I don't dislike them, just sort of indifferent to them. As for the ugliest....the new LIRR DM/DE30's have to be one of the ugliest - especially with the ribbed sides. I have hated them, but have kind of been warming up to them a bit as time goes one, I guess I'm getting used to them.
In summary - the most attractive engines - the GG1's.
Ahhh, the GG1's.....
As for the ugliest....the new LIRR DM/DE30's have to be one of the ugliest - especially with the ribbed sides. I have hated them, but have kind of been warming up to them a bit as time goes one, I guess I'm getting used to them.
Your reactions are different than mine. The more I look at the DM/DE30's, the uglier they look.
LOL, I'm trying my best to like the ugly SOB's. I keep trying to tell myself, "Okay, they're not that bad." After all we are stick with them for a LONG time. I know I'm kidding myself....
Best looking locomotives for me are classic steam, such as 4-4-0 from a century or more ago, NYC Hudsons and Niagras, of course the Pennsy K4 Pacific, &c. But choosing from what I've seen in routine service (although I did see PRR K4's and Reading G's in Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines passenger service when I was too young to appreciate them), I'll vote for the GG-1.
freight
gaudy Amtrak
plain Amtrak
classic
Conrail Bicentennial
classic in action
FL9
The GG1!
Elias
Best looking (all categories) of all time: the PRR GG-1
Best looking electric of all time: the PRR GG-1
Best looking diesel of all time (tie): the Baldwin Sharknose in PRR tuscan red and the Alco PA in the D&H warbonnet
Best looking steam (three way tie): PRR K4s, PRR M1a, PRR T1
Best looking modern electric: Eurostar
Best looking modern diesel: any modern wide cab, such as this C44-9WL, in the BCRail scheme
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The EMD eide caps look much better than the GE wide cabs. The EMD units have larger, non-square windows, and a more rounded hood. Overall EMD units are much less square and boxy than their GE counterparts, especially the radiator flares and the fuel tank.
Wow the T1 looks like it was a fine loco! How streamlined! Pity they don't build those now!
Eurostar - looks good, pity about it getting stuck on slow lines behind commuter trains in England and riding much worse than the Thalys or TGV in France and Belgium. Oh and all the stupidity you have to go through to even get onto the platform...
Wow the T1 looks like it was a fine loco! How streamlined! Pity they don't build those now!
The two prototypes (6110 was one of them) were excellent performers for the Pennsy. Unfortunately, the 50 nominally identical production units didn't turn out so well - poor steamers, from what I've been told. The biggest flaw in the T1 design, however, was that it was a non-articulated duplex - the front drivers tended to slip when starting because there was less weight on them, while it still had the rigid frame so it had issues with sharp curves, hard on track, etc. But they were beautiful, even after they lost the panels covering the drive wheels (maintenance considerations). Built in 1946, they were retired by 1951; none were saved.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For me its a 2 way tide.
Genesis
Eurostar
Ain't nothing can beat the GG-1 for looks.
Baldwin Sharks - Diesel
GG1 - Electric
---Brian
best steam NKP 2-8-4's
electric GG1 (like there is any competition)
diesel probably any one of several E's in passenger paint at the head of a pure streamliner (NO mismatched paint)
Q E's w/ the CZ for instance.
All time? GG-1
Current electric - AEM-7
Current diesel - Gennissessesese
Current MU - M-1
Oh come on! How can you pick the Genesis over the F59? The F59 has like roundness and like aerodynamics. The Genesis has suceeded in screwing up the Box Cab look. I mean how can you screw up a box cab design?! ALL THEY HAD TO DO WAS MAKE A BOX...AND THEY SCREWED IT UP! That takes real effort.
I think that the E60 is better looking than the Genesis. The E60 is a box and it tries to excell at being a box. Its not some hypocrite that tries to pretend to be streamlined. The E60 is a box and its not a afraid to show it which sort of gives it a grace.
Anyway, the best looking current electric is the HHP-8. The AEM...well its just a toaster. You can't possibly like the design of something that looks more like a kitchen appliance than a locomotive.
The F-59? Gah. All the good looks of a corrugated steel shack and a fiberglass nose that looks like it came from JC Whitney.
The E-60 should be painted brick red because it looks like a brick, weighs a lot like a brick, and is about as attractive as a brick. It's everything that's wrong with industrial design in the US. At least the AEM-7 looks decent pulling a train.
The Metroliner MUs were funky, but they stunk otherwise.
The HHP-8 is too weird - short, rounded, and silver. even the ALP-46 looks beeter, though the LOK-2000 beats both hands down, and the class 101 (?) looks good too.
Well, today was suppoed to be another blast but eh, again the weatherdudes are wrong. For anyone who misses it I threw together (in about 90 minutes) another Subway related render, featuring nothing other than SNOW!
Snow day here
Well, they never promised much for the five boroughs, one to three inches. It's frustrating when the temperature is 33 and everyone north of us is getting the big snow.
www.forgotten-ny.com
It's even more frustrating when your college is under 24-36 inches of snow, it's STILL snowing, and you have to DRIVE up there tomorrow. Selkirk, if you hear about a grey sled on I-90, it may belong to me. I need to save on gas.
Dunno if I'll even know if there's a gray sled out there - we're socked in here without a hope in hell of seeing a payloader for a few days at least. Power went out last night, phones were out for the better part of the day ... upstate is CLOSED. :)
But if you shoot up a flare, might see it - everyone else seems to have had the sense to just not go anywhere. Anyone disappointed in the amounts they've got down south are MORE than welcome to send a few trucks up here, take all you want!
Don't complain. Be glad that it was 33 degrees! Snow is a major league nuisance to anyone who has to keep the trains running.
That's the best way. If you want to look at snow, it's always a short trip to the north. The rest of us who have to actually do things in the city don't have to put up with heaven's feces.
Very nice, but what happened to all the construction at Howard Beach, and how is it that I can read that flipdot sign?
I know I've posted this before, and I suppose I'm bragging, but I really like these shots I took a month ago:
Those are good. I should re-post the December 30, 2000 snowstorm shots I snapped for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Maybe I will.
Thank you. Yes, you should! I missed that snowstorm; I moved back from Illinois to New York on January 11, 2001.
Its a 3D render, not an actual photograph (which explains the sign). And the AirTrain station isn't there because I hate that ugly thing. :)
The beauty of 3D - you can make it how you want it. No AirTrain. And snow! If I had 'built' an R40 it would be there instead because that's how I want it :)
I know! Just pointing out that there are a few, um, inaccuracies.
I know you know. :) I just reiterated the fact to say I made it how I wanted it. If I wanted to be accurate I'd make it look like it hasn't been washed in a year.
BTW, you noticed that you can clearly see the sign, but I just noticed I forgot the front chains... oops, good thing we keep those doors locked! :-\
Not always. I once found the front storm door on a NB R-38 A unlocked. There was something wrong with the latch; the door simply wouldn't close all the way, even after the T/O fiddled with it. I had to hold it closed as we rounded the curve onto the Liberty el.
Are the front chains really supposed to serve a safety function? I can't imagine them stopping anyone from falling out of the train.
Those are very, very nice, David, thanks! I hope that you'll include the Brighton on your next snow day adventures.
I'm surprised he got that all in one day, that looks to me like a 2 day affair.
One day, and I didn't start until the tail end of the morning rush, though it was dark by the time I finished. I included my route.
I was surprised too, especially since it seems that the Slow Beach was on the agenda of that day's adventure. That in itself must have taken a lot of time. :-)
Very simply...
Why does the W run local through the Montague tunnel on weekends?
There's already R and N local service.
www.forgotten-ny.com
No, the N was cut back to Pacific on 9/8. The W fills precisely the role the N used to fill north of Pacific nights and weekends: a local to Astoria.
At least does the Sea Beach still run express on 4th Avenue on weekends? I hate it that it is a local. To me it is an express, or should be.
The N does run express via 4 Avenue from Pacific St to 59 Street on weekends then local to 86 St/Gravesend.
No, the Sea Beach is a line between 59th Street on the 4th Avenue line and the Stillwell Avenue terminal. It doesn't run anywhere, local or express. It's a set of tracks and stations, mostly in an open cut.
The N, which is the route that generally serves the Sea Beach line, does run express on 4th Avenue on weekends. It has to be on the express track at Pacific to relay. The R and W run local, or else they'd get stuck behind N's waiting to relay. On weekdays, the N and W run express and the M and R run local.
Remember to remind me to get you a wee pen knife next Christmas so you will have the pleasure of splitting hairs with the best equipment available. OK, you can separate the line and the train but to most of us they are one and the same---AND TO ME THEY WILL ALWAYS BE THAT NO MATTER HOW MANY HAIRS YOU SPLIT. However, I appreciate your taking the time to answer my post and attempt to set me straight.
Well, I happen to think that the TA should combine the Jamaica line and the Sea Beach line into one super line. Think about it: The train could run from Jamaica Center down B'way/B'klyn, then through the Montague tunnel to 4th Ave., then down the Sea Beach. That'd be the ultimate BMT line, huh, Fred?? :)
Something like that was a reality for a short time after 9/11/01:
(J) Jamaica Center - 95th St Fort Hamilton
(M) Metropolitan Ave - Coney Island (via Sea Beach)
I remember-
And they just called it the J.
Well, what about the RJ from 1968? 168th in Jamaica Queens to 95th in Bay Ridge.
That proves it, yellow and brown go GOOD together. :)
Well, what about the RJ from 1968? 168th in Jamaica Queens to 95th in Bay Ridge.
Sadly, the Subway no longer gets to 168th St :-( the RJ must have been a rather good route - shame it took the wrong branch at 59th St! I really think the M train was the star of the show when it got re-routed onto the Sea Beach (although you'd probably say it took the wrong branch at Myrtle/Broadway - never fear, the Myrt is quite nice!)!
Sadly, the Subway no longer gets to 168th St :-(
What are you talking about? The 1/9 and A/C both go to 168th.
Oh, you mean that other 168th?
Oh, you mean that other 168th?
Lol, yeah, and just think, if the Jamaica El had survived, we would have the possibility of having a J train from 168th Street to 168th Street via Chrystie and West 4th. Well, we did gain the possibility of Jamaica Center to Jamaica Center (Jamica to Queens Blvd). Just think of the confusion, "This is a 168th Street bound J Train"....."This is the J train to Jamaica Center"....now which is the northern terminal.....
Didn't I once see a picture of a Standard that almost made it to 170th Street?
Yes, the one with its forward end hanging off the El, its front truck lying at curbside. OUCH!
wayne
Hey, we need a letter code for it:
I'd call it the NJ, only that sounds like New Jersey- no good.
JN just ain't got a good ring to it.
What do you think we should call it, Fred? How does JX strike you?
Not quite Tony. You have got to get the Sea Beach out of the Montague rat hole. Then we can think about a super line like you mentioned. It might fly.
Tony, remember Montague and Sea Beach mixed together in the same sentence is not the best of options ;-). Oh, the line has no choice but to go through the rathole [or we could get creative and reconnect the Nassau loop to the Broadway line]. That could mark a return of the Sea Beach express as well and you could bring the M to the Sea Beach from the West End to run local [hey we all can fantasize can't we].
Thank you, but I don't observe Christmas. My tradition is to give and receive gifts of food on Purim, which falls this year on March 18. I do appreciate the gesture of kindness.
Arrgh... Purim on 18 March... and I'll be in Arizona with my non-Jewish grandchildren :-( But it can't be helped, Alexander will turn 6 on the 20th (and we won't discuss how old I'll turn on the 19th) and I've only missed one of his birthdays so far... don't plan to miss another one for the forseeable future. Oh well, maybe my daughter will let me commandeer her kitchen to make Hamentaschen and ghorayebah...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Happy birthday!
Ghorayebah?
Ghorayebah?
Also known as Bracelets of the Queen. They are of Middle Eastern origin, I believe. Basically, they are a delicate butter cookie shaped like a bracelet and adorned with chopped pistachio nuts, which represent the gems.
Recipe to follow in email.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Got it. Thanks! If I'm feeling ambitious in March, I'll give it a try.
Jewish cuisine, eh? The cookie sounds pretty appetizing to me, but when it comes to Jewish food I will take Manischewitz's yolk free noodles and bow ties any time. You've got to try them.
I have, unfortunately. I'll take the ghorayebah.
Then March 18th it is. Is a wee pen knife you want or something else? If it is food maybe I can ship you a box of Manischewitz's yolk free bowtie pasta. It is very tasty and they cook up real well. I bought five pounds of them some time back and use them in soup and mix them with veggies. Or maybe you would like a week's worth of a subway speed pass. You call it ace.
Surprise me!
"Remember to remind me to get you a wee pen knife next Christmas ..."
Don't you mean next Chanukkah?
Yes Marty, I fouled up again. Stupid of me. Greenberger has got to be a Jewish name and I just wasn't concentrating when I wrote my post. Read my other ones. He may not want a pen knife so I asked if he wanted some Manischewitz's noodles or bow ties, yolk free, of course. I eat them all the time with veggies and in soup, sometimes just with some margerine. Anyway, I will await his answer.
Actually to put it in a nutshell, the N runs express between Pacific and 59th Streets 24/7, and NEVER MAKES LOCAL STOPS. In addition, the R overnight shuttle (extended to Pacific Street), rus express between 36th and Pacific Street only, local south of 36th Street.
I thought the R shuttle in the nighttime runs express northbound only then local southbound.
See the latest subway map plus there is NO SWITCH from the express (Dekalb bypass) track to the local track at Pacific Street. The switch is from local to express about 100 feet north of the station, before the reverse layup switch from N/B to S/B express.
You're very wrong.Back on 9/8/02,the N and W flip flopped service so now the N only runs in Brooklyn on weekend's while the W goes up to Astoria,replacing the N that's why it's local.
Mea culpa.
Today, it was Never, Rarely and Wait an hour....
www.forgotten-ny.com
This has been asked quite a few times, but I'll answer for you. The W was flipped with N service on weekends because it was to shaft the Sea Beach on purpose ;-). All jokes aside, it replaces N service[its cut back as a shuttle to Pacific St] on weekends in Manhattan & Queens and it was done to make the W not look like a useless line.
No, it was done so there'd be full-time direct access between Manhattan and Stillwell. As of 9/8/01, the W is the only route to serve Stillwell, so the W was extended to Manhattan. There being no need for all of the N, Q, R, and W in Manhattan on weekends, the N was the obvious choice to be pared back to Brooklyn. (It has the same north terminal as the W; the R serves a different corridor in Queens and it's difficult to terminate the Q at Atlantic, both for trains and for passengers.)
You wake up too early in the morning.
---Brian
Alternate hypothesis: he knows how to party til 3am.
No, Brian was right: I woke up at 4:30 in the morning and couldn't fall back asleep. I was meeting someone in Queens at 9:30, so by 7 I figured I'd just stay up.
I know it was done to serve Stillwell too and BTW, your date's wrong, its 9/8/02.
If you look back at the history of the West End prior to Chrystie Street, I believe there was never express service on weekends. It was always local.
The Brighton and the Sea Beach were the expresses.
I could be wrong, though.
According to the route listings for 1966, posted on this site, the West End had express service via bridge Mon-Sat. There was also service via tunnel weekdays. Sundays it terminated at 36th St and didn't go to Manhattan at all.
I believe however that West End ridership has grown faster than Sea Beach ridership since 1966, so it may be fair to give the West End preference in 2004. Others have explained why it has preference now.
In 2004, I'm hoping the B is restored and West End service is via 6th Avenue once again, putting the N back on the bridge and the Broadway Express.
The B is most likely getting restored to Brooklyn but we'll have to see on the N and as for the West End, they should consider a peak express service in the future.
The West End will be a shuttle to 36th-CI
The Sea Beach will be a shuttle to 36-CI as well
the brighton line will be rebuilt into an eight or six track line with the franklin av shuttle extended to mytle av on the G
2 the E will connect to the montague st tunnel at cortlandt street
3 The M will operate on the brighton again
routes:stops listed:
Q 6th ave: atlantic,parkside-newkirk, kings highway-CI
Q peak broadway: atlantic, kings highway,brighton beach
N atlantic,AVE H-CI
W QB express,queens plaza-kings highway local
B atlantic ave, church,newkirk,and kings highway
lines D, E,and M: dekalb,atlantic,7th ave,prospect park, kings highway
Homo say what?Where the hell did you get this from?
rumor around at babylon tower yesterday
Where is Babylon tower? Definately not in NYC!
"Where is Babylon tower?"
Remember that the ancient city of Babylon is in what is now Iraq.
Since we are hearing rumors, here's one. I heard the ones responsible for turning the Sea Beach into a shuttle are currently making ourttheir wills because they feel they won't survive to see such a thing.
Let's hope that the discontinuance of direct Coney Island service via the West End and the Sea Beach Lines is only a rumor, not the real thing.
#3 West End Jeff
Don't worry Jeff, its just a outrageous rumor, we'll just see in the future. Cutting the Sea Beach & West End lines to full time shuttles is just plain dumb.
I definitely agree with you on that point.
#3 West End Jeff
Man! What were they smokin' and where can I get some????? The Franklin Shuttle has been downgraded. It would take a lot of work to extend it.
Obviously the person from the Babylon tower who brought out such idiotic ideas have been smokin too much!
He smuggled too much rumors into one post ;-). I agree that those proposed services it is just moronic, the person was smoking too much and cutting 2 lines while placing a HEAVY burden on 1 w/o justification is stupid.
Oh let Mayor Doomberg give a idea to the leaders of Nassau & Suffolk, ban smoking in towers that way we won't have to hear dumb shit like this. BTW I'M NOT SUGGESTING THIS!, I'm just being sarcastic ;-).
THERE'S ACTUALLY A BABYLON TOWER?
Do the people in there speak different languages or what?
You're thinking of Babel, not Babylon.
Babel and Babylon are the same thing.
"You're thinking of Babel, not Babylon."
Babble on !
Bill "Newkirk"
That is one mega bad rumor that is never gonna happen that's for sure.
This has come up before, nothing to worry about... Just a rumor.
dont think so
the email had the surveyers reports from the brighton line and was from a good freind of mine whoworks in that dept
That's pretty funny. I'm surprised you've hooked so many already. Anything involving new capital construction outside of Manhattan is DOA right now. I assume the supervisor's name happens to be Mike Crotch.
Exactly, this is one of the silliest rumors I ever heard, they will NOT cut off 2 lines that's just stupid but its only a rumor so I ain't taking it too seriously[at least not yet].
This has come up before, nothing to worry about... Just a rumor.
Homo say what?
Oh, classic! I haven't heard that in years! I must reintroduce that into my daily conmversations :)
---Brian
["Homo say what?"
"Oh, classic! I haven't heard that in years! I must reintroduce that into my daily conmversations :)"]
Sorry, but that line is not politically correct nowadays. The correct saying is "Person with alternate sexual lifestyle, say what"?
(Not that I know what 'say what' means!)
Well in some ways we must be correct in the terms we use, but for the most part you can take political correctness and shove up Hillary Clinton's ass as far as it will go, and if you don't choose her try it on some yo-yo on this website who will go nameless but, hint, hint, she hasn't a freaking clue.
I was assuming it was to do with "Homo sapiens" and casting doubt on whether the originator of the rumour could be regarded as "sapiens".
Wow! A double 4-track elevated into Brighton Beach! And bringing back the Manhattan Beach branch for the other tracks (those houses on East 16th St should have never been built on the ROW). And, yowsa, doubling the EL over Brighton Beach Avenue for 12 tracks!! I love it!! With Stillwell Avenue closed, I am sure we'll see the section between Stillwell and West 8th triple-decked for the new line! Yay - another Brighton Line video for me to do!!!
(man, what was in those tic-tacs I just took?)
--Mark
Hay I heard a rumor that they will be connecting Stillwell av to Station Island transit. this will tie in with the shuttles to 4th av
Joke
That makes sense, but will they be connecting West 8th Street with Station Side Transit?
Even more awesome rumor: they're going to extend the F & N lines to Stillwell Av in 2004! [smirk]
Hay how about the one extending the line from rockaway park across the marine park bridge back under ground on flatbush ave and ending with a transfer with the #2 at nostrand av. you never know what they are thinking and smoking out there
Ok putting all jokes and rumors aside, New York Transit is a great system, they must try to use it to bennifit the rider and not them selfs. weather you ride the brighton, sea beach, west end, culver and all of the eastern div lines, they have been there for generations and should be used to their fullest to serve the people. I personally rode them all and each and every route is great un to their own. There is no other system like it. Lets hope that they will not destroy it.
Mayor John Hylan had a proposal to build a 4-track line under Flatbush Avenue to Floyd Bennett Field in the early 1920s. I am sure he is smiling on your "rumour" :)
--Mark
Where would that line had gone going toward Downtown Brooklyn?
As it was a "new" proposal, it had no connections to existing routes.
Here's what I know about it:
A 4-track subway under Flatbush Avenue in Brooklyn to Nostrand Ave, to Emmons Avenue in Sheepshead Bay, turning west onto Emmons Ave. to Surf Avenue in Coney Island. A branch of this line would head out to Floyd Bennett Field under Flatbush Avenue.
You can read about Hylan's entire proposal on my History of the IND page.
--Mark
Looks a fun proposal - I might try making a BAHN layout of it if I ever have time...
I'm reading all this and taking it all in and I'm not smiling a bit.
See Mark, the Brighton line is just special like that! A double 4 track line with 6-8 different lines from all over the system, how sweet could that get, the first line EVER to have a double 4 track line. BTW, I'm just fantasizing what a double stacked Brighton would be like :-).
What the ?! Where the hell did you come up with this outrageous stuff, while the Brigton is a important line; the Brighton would become extremely overloaded. It sounds made up and its total bullshit if you ask me. So wait you're saying that the Brighton would be rebuilt into 6-8 tracks[presumably staceked on top of the current one] and many different lines running on it, and the E running to Kings Hwy, NO WAY! I don't believe this crap for one minute.
I don't either. NIMBY's along the Brighton would not go for that either. If an 8 track line is running here, how will all 8 tracks merge into the tunnel at Prospect Park, let alone make it into the cut at Newkirk. Whoever thought this up better lay off the "ripple". As Fred Sanford would say: "It ain't a party without any ripple".
Building one extra track wouldn't go well with residents living near the train tracks. Its all silly rumors, don't buy any of this crap.
.
I do agree with you, mouse. It seems we have more of 'em. :(
You're joshing all of us.
Oh thank god! I was scared for a minute. You know the old saying: if it's on the internet, it must be true.
The Sea Beach will be a shuttle to 36th Stret-CI." No offense my friend, but later for you ace.
"The West End will be a shuttle to 36th-CI
The Sea Beach will be a shuttle to 36-CI as well blah blah blah blah "
WHAT !!! NO MENTION OF REOPENING 76TH ST. !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Where did you get this information? From Bill Clinton's final party for interns in the U.S. Governmant?
When I read that outrageous rumor, I just sat there laughing at such foolishness. Even though our Brighton line would be more important & interesing than it already is with a 2nd level of 4 tracks, lets be real its too good to be true and would put a huge burden on the Brighton. I will NOT believe foolish stuff like this.
Neither do I, as I love the Brighton Line, but he carried it to the extreme and should back up his statementts with facts. Don't worry Fred it's all lies because where would the MTA get THIS MUCH money from for these projects? The Sea Beach and West End lines will be here to stay and thats running to Manhattan most of the time. There will be NO line running to Floyd Bennett Fiekd and the Brighton Line trackage will remain the same.
There is no concrete facts and it was probably posted here just to amuse himself :-\. Don't worry Fred and (West End) Jeff, they won't cut back the lines and remember, the MTA is in supposedly in poverty so they won't have the money to do such a odd and silly project like that. Don't worry Kool-D, they won't alter our Brighton line and the NIMBY's along the line won't put up with such a stupid plan anyway.
They CANNOT alter the BEST and MOST FAMOUS line in the NYC subway system anyway so I'm not worried.
Next stop on the Q Express, Kings Highway. Please stand clear of the closing doors.
There's no way I'll be worried! The Brighton line is a real trooper and it won't stand for that :-). Seriously, it would make no sense; like how would it go under Newkirk and through the portal at Parkside Av unless you want it to soar about 100 feet into the air over the streets.
We're on a R40 flying down the express track skipping Av H, J & M arriving at Kings Highway. This is a Brighton Beach bound Q express, next stop Sheepshead Bay stand clear of the closing doors....
I'd be a hell of a lot more optimistic if you guys, Kool-D and Flatbush 41, were running the TA instead of some of the guys there now. They do NOT like the Sea Beach and I have this gut feeling that they want to slice it up like salami. Hopefully sanity will prevail.
I would hate working for the Moronic Transportation Authority, I would have to fire everyone at 2 Broadway who tinkers with my Brighton Line the wrong way.
Where did you get this information? From Bill Clinton's final party for interns in the U.S. Government?
Is this guy serious?
See this eBay listing.
I don't collect MetroCards, but is this as rare as the seller claims?
--Mark
Looks fishy. But I'm not up on my MetroCard values either.
---Brian
Looks like one of those "school pass" metrocards, brah...
That OR someone plastered their Depends© onto it..
Wow! I sure he/she is in a desperate need of $$$$
$3,000???? WHAT????? What is he? NUTS! And who in the world would be too stupid to paid $3,000 for that priceless MetroCard.
"And who in the world would be too stupid to paid $3,000 for that priceless MetroCard?"
The same people who'd pay $0.99 for a computer link that is otherwise free.
I used to collect Metrocards and I've seen a lot of different "test" cards, but never before seen that one. I've seen several "test" Metrocards with the blue front and something like "for testing purposes only" or just a blank bank with an exp date and serial # sell in the $100-$250 range on E-Bay, but nowhere near what this guy's asking. It may be rare, but only an idiot would pay what he's asking.
Only the idiot thinks that Money grows on the tree or fall from the skies.
HELL NO! No Metrocard sells for $3000, not even the blue one could be sold for that, the most for a rare Metrocard is MAYBE a couple hundred dollars. They DO have Metrocard trade shows so he's not bogus about selling and trading them but 3G's, he must be high :-\.
As of 9:30am on Sunday morning with about 13 hours left to bid on it, there are no bids.
No Bid!.Well of course! $3,000 is waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much one metrocard. I collect metrocard. I wouldn't paid that dude $3,000 for priceless card.
As of 5:30 pm Sunday, still no bids.
Well, he can forget that $3,000 pocket change.
He still has about another 15-20 minutes at 11PM. He might get a sucker.
HEHE, only that sucker who is willing to give his new car or taken large sums out of his bank account.
You would if there were $4,000 in fares on the card.
Nahhhh, I have bills and rents to pay.
Hmmm, that's 2,667 rides to break even at current $1.50 fare :)
--Mark
AAwwww! Poor booboo! Well, maybe there is next time if he willing throw in little extra for auction fees. Hmmm, if he does, I wonder what will his asking price would be this time. $50,000!..$100,000..maybe?
But still, The card is PRICELESS!
I would have liked to see both sides of the card. Unless it was the card used by David Gunn, the card was more WORTHLESS.
Metrocard trading shows!?
I'd like to see who goes there. Ha! Well, then again, I do collect 'em myself. 8)
My scam alert is blinking yellow.
Funny we're only being shown ONE side of the card..
Unless the other side has MERTOCARD mispelled he's no swipe.
As of 1:20 PM on Sunday afternoon, Still no bids on the card.
MertoCard is what you use to pay for your funeral and burial.